# Topdressing and Leveling



## SCGrassMan

So I had some sod repairs done after irrigation install (see my thread in Irrigation if interested) and I want to do some topdressing and leveling.

I am contemplating topsoil, or mushroom compost. I want to do about 1/4" all over, and using an online calculator I came up with roughly 2 cubic yards and some change to do 3,000 sq feet to that depth.

Does anybody have any input?


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## MasterMech

Man do I wish I only had 3k to tackle. My lawn looks like it was leveled by a glacier.

Eagerly awaiting other, more experienced input on your top dress material. Although I believe your soil is very different than my red clay.


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## Ware

It ultimately depends on your expectations, but I would use sand. I think the compost would eventually break down and leave you right back where you started. Here is a good thread on leveling and here are some videos I made of the leveling I did after my irrigation install...


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## SCGrassMan

My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable 

So I saw the fancy rake from R&R, but I also saw some other things I don't have as far as tools, like a riding mower, and a drag mat, etc.

Is this something I can do with regular rakes and the like? Or do I have to get one of those fancy leveling rakes? And how much sand is too much sand to where it will affect the grass underneath?


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## Cory

You could make a similar rake with a couple of straight 2x3's and some screws for less than $15 if you don't want to buy one of those fancy ones he's using in the video.


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## Ware

SCGrassMan said:


> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable


If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:

I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.

I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.

I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.


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## Reel Low Dad

Adding my thoughts on a drag mat. I picked up a 5x3 and it is rather robust. I was originally going to get the 3x3 but figured the wider footprint would allow for better results. I haven't had a chance to try it out full scale yet but it is pullable but with a good bit of effort. For 3000 sqft I would look at the 3x3 and save some cash and soreness.


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## Mightyquinn

For 3K of lawn I would just get a Landscaping Rake and the Leveling Rake from R&R should be all you need as you could do it all in sections in one day. I see that you have Zoysia so I'm not too sure how heavy you can go with the sand when leveling. I will second what Ware said about using sand over compost as the compost will just leave back where you started after a year or two. I know for bermuda, I usually recommend about 1 cu/yd of sand per K but that might be too much for zoysia but I'm not 100% positive on that.


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## gatormac2112

I'm going to do 1/2 yard of sand per 1000 on my zoysia in June, I need to get a landscaping rake and drag mat. Can borrow a small riding mower to drag it around. This will be my first time too and don't want a beach for 3 months.


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## SCGrassMan

Ware said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable
> 
> 
> 
> If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:
> 
> I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.
> 
> I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.
> 
> I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.
Click to expand...

I was gonna say, that green rake would be my one purchase. I could probably get a drag mat and borrow a tractor, but with my lawn being so small, I don't know how well I could manuever it. Maybe if I offer our HOA landscaping guy usage of the drag mat he will help me level?


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## Colonel K0rn

SCGrassMan said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable
> 
> 
> 
> If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:
> 
> I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.
> 
> I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.
> 
> I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was gonna say, that green rake would be my one purchase. I could probably get a drag mat and borrow a tractor, but with my lawn being so small, I don't know how well I could manuever it. Maybe if I offer our HOA landscaping guy usage of the drag mat he will help me level?
Click to expand...

Depending on how good of a cook you are, I might know someone who would be willing to help a fellow TLF'er.


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## SCGrassMan

I'm a pretty good cook! Shrimp and grits, and then brown liquor!


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## Darrell

My Bermuda turf is very soft. Just walking across the lawn leaves indentions in the soil.

Will top dressing with sand make the turf firmer? I need to do so to level out some irregularities and am hoping it would toughen up the turf.


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## Movingshrub

SCGrassMan said:


> I'm a pretty good cook! Shrimp and grits, and then brown liquor!


If I was still in Clemson I would absolutely road trip for that deal.


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## SCGrassMan

Movingshrub said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a pretty good cook! Shrimp and grits, and then brown liquor!
> 
> 
> 
> If I was still in Clemson I would absolutely road trip for that deal.
Click to expand...

As long as you like single malt scotch, and halfway decent bourbon! 

Offer is open to anyone near Charleston, SC who ever wants to help.


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## Colonel K0rn

Darrell said:


> My Bermuda turf is very soft. Just walking across the lawn leaves indentions in the soil.
> 
> Will top dressing with sand make the turf firmer? I need to do so to level out some irregularities and am hoping it would toughen up the turf.


I'm quick to say yes, and you'll notice a benefit from sanding to level out those bumps as well. Good golf courses use sand to level and firm up the greens, but also the HOC that you're at plays a role in the firmness of your turf.



SCGrassMan said:


> Offer is open to anyone near Charleston, SC who ever wants to help.


2 hour drive for me :shrug:


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## SCGrassMan

Colonel K0rn said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Offer is open to anyone near Charleston, SC who ever wants to help.
> 
> 
> 
> 2 hour drive for me :shrug:
Click to expand...

ONLY 2 hours


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## Darrell

Colonel K0rn said:


> Darrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Bermuda turf is very soft. Just walking across the lawn leaves indentions in the soil.
> 
> Will top dressing with sand make the turf firmer? I need to do so to level out some irregularities and am hoping it would toughen up the turf.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm quick to say yes, and you'll notice a benefit from sanding to level out those bumps as well. Good golf courses use sand to level and firm up the greens, but also the HOC that you're at plays a role in the firmness of your turf.
> 
> 
> 
> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Offer is open to anyone near Charleston, SC who ever wants to help.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2 hour drive for me :shrug:
Click to expand...

HOC?


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## Colonel K0rn

Darrell said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Darrell said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Bermuda turf is very soft. Just walking across the lawn leaves indentions in the soil.
> 
> Will top dressing with sand make the turf firmer? I need to do so to level out some irregularities and am hoping it would toughen up the turf.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm quick to say yes, and you'll notice a benefit from sanding to level out those bumps as well. Good golf courses use sand to level and firm up the greens, but also the HOC that you're at plays a role in the firmness of your turf.
> 
> 
> 
> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Offer is open to anyone near Charleston, SC who ever wants to help.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 2 hour drive for me :shrug:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> HOC?
Click to expand...

Height of Cut

This link will help you out if you see something you're not familiar with
Acronyms/Glossary


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## Topcat

SCGrassMan said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable
> 
> 
> 
> If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:
> 
> I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.
> 
> I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.
> 
> I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was gonna say, that green rake would be my one purchase. I could probably get a drag mat and borrow a tractor, but with my lawn being so small, I don't know how well I could manuever it. Maybe if I offer our HOA landscaping guy usage of the drag mat he will help me level?
Click to expand...

I have a drag mat that I pull by hand - works great. I will gladly come help as long as it is on a weekend that I am not working.

I plan on at least two level exercises this summer. I was very conservative the first time I leveled because I was leery of burying my bermuda under too much sand. I think I will just go for it this year. The worst that can happen is I'd have to re-sod with an exotic cultivar that I really want anyway.

Let me know...


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## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:
> 
> I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.
> 
> I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.
> 
> I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.
> 
> 
> 
> I was gonna say, that green rake would be my one purchase. I could probably get a drag mat and borrow a tractor, but with my lawn being so small, I don't know how well I could manuever it. Maybe if I offer our HOA landscaping guy usage of the drag mat he will help me level?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a drag mat that I pull by hand - works great. I will gladly come help as long as it is on a weekend that I am not working.
> 
> I plan on at least two level exercises this summer. I was very conservative the first time I leveled because I was leery of burying my bermuda under too much sand. I think I will just go for it this year. The worst that can happen is I'd have to re-sod with an exotic cultivar that I really want anyway.
> 
> Let me know...
Click to expand...

I tell ya what buddy, help me with mine, and I'll come help with yours. Do you have any of the above mentioned tools like that leveling rake from R&R or a drag mat? I think between the two of us we could justify buying one or both and lending it to the other.


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## SCGrassMan

Ware, what width leveling rake from R&R did you use? And would you suggest the same size? I'm looking at the 36" over the other sizes for a combo of $$$ purposes and maneuverability for my small yard.


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## Ware

SCGrassMan said:


> Ware, what width leveling rake from R&R did you use? And would you suggest the same size? I'm looking at the 36" over the other sizes for a combo of $$$ purposes and maneuverability for my small yard.


Mine is a 48". If I was buying again today I'd probably go with the 36".


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## Topcat

@SCGrassMan I do have a drag mat that I bought last year. It is small enough to pull by hand. I used a push broom to move the sand and level last year and after that experience decided a level rake would probably be better suited. I hadn't bought one yet. It is in the plan this year. Leveling would go much faster with help. :thumbup:


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## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> @SCGrassMan I do have a drag mat that I bought last year. It is small enough to pull by hand. I used a push broom to move the sand and level last year and after that experience decided a level rake would probably be better suited. I hadn't bought one yet. It is in the plan this year. Leveling would go much faster with help. :thumbup:


Why don't we split a levelling rake? We can help each other, and you can store it at your place... I have a one car garage and its FULL lol. PM me if you're game, I'm going to order sand today most likely.

We can also get a $50 leveling rake thats not as nice as the ones from R&R, but would probably get the job done.


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## Topcat

Space constraints are understandable. I went from this



To this



And all that did was gave me more space for more lawn equipment.

I am game for splitting the costs of a level rake. Will pm you after work.


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## Llano Estacado

Ware said:


> It ultimately depends on your expectations, but I would use sand. I think the compost would eventually break down and leave you right back where you started. Here is a good thread on leveling and here are some videos I made of the leveling I did after my irrigation install...


So if you could only buy either the 36" drag mat or a 36" R&R Rake for a 4500 sq ft yard which would you go with?


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## Ware

@Llano Estacado for a major leveling project I would get a drag mat. For light topdressing I like the leveling rake. The leveling rake works better when it has a good reference to ground. It tends to want to dig in when used on a thick layer of sand.


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## Llano Estacado

Ware said:


> @Llano Estacado for a major leveling project I would get a drag mat. For light topdressing I like the leveling rake. The leveling rake works better when it has a good reference to ground. It tends to want to dig in when used on a thick layer of sand.


 :thumbup:


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## Tellycoleman

Can Manufactured sand be used for top dressing.
http://www.thegravelcompany.com/products-sand.html


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## raldridge2315

I don't think it would work out very well. It Says it's a limestone product. Ground limestone is commonly used to adjust pH on farm fields. Seems to me that any limestone product would affect the pH.


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## SCGrassMan

Does it matter what time of year I do the leveling? I feel like between the sod repair, and the recent trenchwork from the irrigation install, now is as good a time as any, but Topcat had mentioned perhaps I should wait? My reel mower will be here in a week and a few days, so I'd rather do it sooner and have things nice and flat.


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## Mightyquinn

I think it's best to wait until your lawn is actively growing before going ahead on this.


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## Greendoc

Tellycoleman said:


> Can Manufactured sand be used for top dressing.
> http://www.thegravelcompany.com/products-sand.html


Please don't.. I checked what that sand is made of and you will give yourself the gift of ridiculously alkaline soil. Do that and growing grass will become a technically challenging experience, much like trying to grow fine turf on top of coral.


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## SCGrassMan

Mightyquinn said:


> I think it's best to wait until your lawn is actively growing before going ahead on this.


It's mostly greened up... I want to at least start the process as I have some patched in sod over the irrigation trenches, etc. and have a greens mower on the way in about a week


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## Tellycoleman

Greendoc said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Manufactured sand be used for top dressing.
> http://www.thegravelcompany.com/products-sand.html
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't.. I checked what that sand is made of and you will give yourself the gift of ridiculously alkaline soil. Do that and growing grass will become a technically challenging experience, much like trying to grow fine turf on top of coral.
Click to expand...

Thanks I plan on doing a leveling and I am overwhelmed with the sand choices I have. From what i have read Volleyball sand has the least amount of aggregate pieces and is processed more than masonry sand which can contain up to 10%.. Still not sure but i have plenty of time to decide.

This Company will probably be my supplier. They sale brown screened sand with no aggregate pieces and volleyball sand.


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## SCGrassMan

Just get masonry sand. Don't reinvent the wheel. (I have a tendency to try and reinvent the wheel)


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## Tellycoleman

SCGrassMan said:


> Just get masonry sand. Don't reinvent the wheel. (I have a tendency to try and reinvent the wheel)


But square wheels look so much better!!!
lol. Yep I overthink everything.


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## SCGrassMan

Same!


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## Tex86

Ware said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable
> 
> 
> 
> If I can do, you can do it. :thumbup:
> 
> I've used a drag mat, a drag broom and the leveling rake. Dollar for dollar I think it is hard to beat the efficiency of the drag mat on a lawn that hasn't been leveled before. If I was only going to buy one, that would probably be it. For only 3k square feet, you could buy a smaller one that is designed to be pulled by hand.
> 
> I use a regular landscape rake to knock down the piles and distribute the sand, but for final smoothing I get much better results with any of the tools mentioned above. The landscape rake tends to want to bounce, if that makes sense.
> 
> I can't speak to how much sand is too much for zoysia, but a general rule of thumb for a decent first leveling project for bermuda is about 1 cubic yard per thousand.
Click to expand...

Hey Ware,
Got a quick question, my yard is pretty bumpy and I foresee me becoming very frustrated on having the leveling rake bounce every 3 feet for the first leveling job, but I am willing to purchase this as I can use this multiple time a year for my other properties. ANyways, I am fixing to pull the trigger on the 3 x 3 drag mat, but could I just use the drag mat after I have distributed the sand into the low areas? I'm on the fence about buying both, but is the really necessary?

TIA


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## Ware

Tex86 said:


> ...could I just use the drag mat after I have distributed the sand into the low areas? I'm on the fence about buying both, but is the really necessary?


Yes, the drag mat will work fine.


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## jayhawk

congrats on having the best grass for your eyes and feet! @SCGrassMan zeon can get really dense if in the sun most of the day....making it hard to get sand/dirt worked in. Have you considered a vertical mow of some kind, before to help open up the canopy? i don't topdress until the grass is growing vigorously...here in atlanta around may. Do it before going on vacation so you don't stare at the beach/yard every day 

This time, i am thinking of iterating rolling, more material....


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## SCGrassMan

jayhawk said:


> congrats on having the best grass for your eyes and feet! @SCGrassMan zeon can get really dense if in the sun most of the day....making it hard to get sand/dirt worked in. Have you considered a vertical mow of some kind, before to help open up the canopy? i don't topdress until the grass is growing vigorously...here in atlanta around may. Do it before going on vacation so you don't stare at the beach/yard every day
> 
> This time, i am thinking of iterating rolling, more material....


Thank you sir! It's also the least resistant to dog urine 

The mower I'm getting has grooming tines on it which I think does some of that (Ware correct me if I'm wrong, this is the groomer thats the metal blades, not the broom bristles I'm referring to)


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## balistek

$25/yd sand, 2yd minimum, 40 dollar delivery fee. Seems like a fair deal? Thats dump truck delivery. Super bags are like $65 per cubic yard and I think $50 dollar delivery. Would prolly opt for dump truck drop off on the driveway


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## Ware

balistek said:


> $25/yd sand, 2yd minimum, 40 dollar delivery fee. Seems like a fair deal?


That sounds fair to me. I paid less for the sand, but more for the delivery.


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## SCGrassMan

I believe thats about what I paid for the sand and delivery. I paid $200 with tax and delivery for 2 yards of sand and 3 yards of hardwood mulch.


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## wartee

I paid $320 for 6 yards of washed #2 sand. The place I bought from uses only single axle trucks, so it was safe for them to go on my driveway.

FYI these make the job much easier!


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## SGrabs33

wartee said:


> I paid $320 for 6 yards of washed #2 sand. The place I bought from uses only single axle trucks, so it was safe for them to go on my driveway.
> 
> FYI these make the job much easier!


Very cool! And jealous that you already have so much green. Is that yours or a rental?


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## wartee

I bought it several years ago for $500. It's a 70's model, but still works. One of my future projects is putting new tires on it (a real pain) and giving it a new paint job.


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## Ware

wartee said:


> FYI these make the job much easier!


I bet! I wish I had access to one! :thumbup:


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## wartee

Ware said:


> I bet! I wish I had access to one! :thumbup:


I can put down 6 yards in an afternoon by myself, way way way easier/faster than when I used to do it with a wheelbarrow and shovel. BUT - I nearly rolled the thing on my steep front yard! Scared the poo out of me, now I only use it on my flat back yard.


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## Mightyquinn

wartee said:


> I paid $320 for 6 yards of washed #2 sand. The place I bought from uses only single axle trucks, so it was safe for them to go on my driveway.


Actually the more axles the truck has the more evenly the weight will be distributed and less likely to crack your driveway. I had 8 yds delivered last year and didn't have any issues with the driveway.


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## wartee

Mightyquinn: you're correct about spreading the load over axles. Another thing to consider is the weight of the truck itself; the truck I used maxes out at 6 yards capacity and is overall a lot smaller than the full-size trucks. I wonder if the heavier trucks are offset by spreading over 3 or 4 axles? And if the axle load or total load is more important? Oh well, our driveways didn't crack and that's what counts!


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## SCGrassMan

Last time I had sand delivered, they cracked my neighbors driveway. Mostly because his driveway was washed out underneath. I asked him several times to get me a quote to fix it to give to SiteOne... so 4 or 5 months later he did. I think he thought I was just gonna write him a check!


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## Ware

It's never a bad idea to keep heavy trucks off of residential driveways. They don't crack - until they do.


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## Rockinar

SCGrassMan said:


> My expectations are for it to look at least as good as yours, which is probably unreasonable
> 
> So I saw the fancy rake from R&R, but I also saw some other things I don't have as far as tools, like a riding mower, and a drag mat, etc.
> 
> Is this something I can do with regular rakes and the like? Or do I have to get one of those fancy leveling rakes? And how much sand is too much sand to where it will affect the grass underneath?


I used a pallet I found next to a dumpster, tied a rope through a study piece of PVC as a handle and dragged that around. You dont HAVE to have fancy equipment.


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## Llano Estacado

I am going to rent a slice seeder, closest thing to a verticutter I can find, before doing my levelling job. Would it also be a good idea to core aerate before hand?


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## SGrabs33

Llano Estacado said:


> I am going to rent a slice seeder, closest thing to a verticutter I can find, before doing my levelling job. Would it also be a good idea to core aerate before hand?


Me, being an expert and never having done this before, I say it's a great idea. I'm going to do it this year and try and suck up everything with my rotary before putting down the sand.


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## wartee

Rockinar said:


> I used a pallet I found next to a dumpster, tied a rope through a study piece of PVC as a handle and dragged that around. You dont HAVE to have fancy equipment.


I have a 5' section of heavy-duty chain link fence, with a 1x2 attached to one end with zip ties and a PVC handle on a piece of rope. The fence was a piece of scrap a fence company gave me for free, it works great!


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## SCGrassMan

Ware said:


> It's never a bad idea to keep heavy trucks off of residential driveways. They don't crack - until they do.


woops. Sorry neighbor!


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## SCGrassMan

Rockinar said:


> I used a pallet I found next to a dumpster, tied a rope through a study piece of PVC as a handle and dragged that around. You dont HAVE to have fancy equipment.


You know, I just happen to have some pallets...


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## Stro3579

Llano Estacado said:


> I am going to rent a slice seeder, closest thing to a verticutter I can find, before doing my levelling job. Would it also be a good idea to core aerate before hand?


Depending on how much of a top dressing you are going to add. I think it's a waste of time and money to verticut before top dressing. Unless you have a lot of thatch. 
I would scalp and bag(every angle) getting up as much thatch as possible. Areate, remove plugs if you can or roll them. I would then top dress heavy enough to create new top surface over whatever thatch is left. The thatch will be covered and will break down into your soil. 
Just my 2 cents.

Also you can make a dragger or sweeper for your yard very easy. Get a skid. Buy some cheap brooms. Use the brushes
And mount them to the skid. Then make some type of pulling arms to pull the brooms (skid) over yard. If needed add weights.
You can use chains or anything to use to pull the brooms.

I made this last year


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## Stro3579

My sweeper started out of skids and chains to pull. It worked great. But me just being me. I knew I was going to be doing this more often, so I built a frame.


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## Ware

Stro3579 said:


> ...I think it's a waste of time and money to verticut before top dressing. I would scalp and bag(every angle) areate, remove plugs if you can or roll them. I would then top dress heavy enough to create new top surface over whatever thatch is left. The thatch will be covered and will break down into your soil. Just my 2 cents...


Unless your goal is to reduce organic matter. 

_"...Vertical mowing of bermudagrass fairways is needed to control organic matter accumulation and maintain a dense, upright turf growth habit. Deep verticutting can be performed once annually, or light and frequent verticutting throughout the growing season also works well..."

"...Excessive organic matter accumulation essentially acts as a sponge that absorbs and retains moisture and, in turn, contributes to the persistence of wet, soft surface conditions. Excessive thatch can also result in poor-quality mowing and increased scalping damage. Furthermore, thatch layers can cause shallow rooting, reduce drought tolerance, harbor various insect and disease pests, and tie up pesticides (thereby reducing their effectiveness). Increased incidence of hydrophobic localized dry spots is also observed when excessive thatch layers dry out. Management and control of thatch is a critically important and an ongoing concern..."

"...Based on experiences over the years, both core aeration and verticutting are necessary practices to prevent excessive thatch and organic matter accumulation with bermudagrass fairways..."​_


----------



## Ridgerunner

Ware said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it's a waste of time and money to verticut before top dressing. I would scalp and bag(every angle) areate, remove plugs if you can or roll them. I would then top dress heavy enough to create new top surface over whatever thatch is left. The thatch will be covered and will break down into your soil. Just my 2 cents...
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your goal is to reduce organic matter.
Click to expand...

Slicing/cutting stolons (and rhizomes) also promotes new daughter plant growth.


----------



## Stro3579

Ware said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it's a waste of time and money to verticut before top dressing. I would scalp and bag(every angle) areate, remove plugs if you can or roll them. I would then top dress heavy enough to create new top surface over whatever thatch is left. The thatch will be covered and will break down into your soil. Just my 2 cents...
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your goal is to reduce organic matter.
> 
> _"...Vertical mowing of bermudagrass fairways is needed to control organic matter accumulation and maintain a dense, upright turf growth habit. Deep verticutting can be performed once annually, or light and frequent verticutting throughout the growing season also works well..."
> 
> "...Excessive organic matter accumulation essentially acts as a sponge that absorbs and retains moisture and, in turn, contributes to the persistence of wet, soft surface conditions. Excessive thatch can also result in poor-quality mowing and increased scalping damage. Furthermore, thatch layers can cause shallow rooting, reduce drought tolerance, harbor various insect and disease pests, and tie up pesticides (thereby reducing their effectiveness). Increased incidence of hydrophobic localized dry spots is also observed when excessive thatch layers dry out. Management and control of thatch is a critically important and an ongoing concern..."
> 
> "...Based on experiences over the years, both core aeration and verticutting are necessary practices to prevent excessive thatch and organic matter accumulation with bermudagrass fairways..."​_
Click to expand...

Let me rephrase my statement. Every yard varies. If you already have a established yard and bag every cut. Have a small amount of thatch build up. I would bypast the verticut before top dressing. If you have a lot of build up of thatch, then yes....verticut or dethatch as much as possible.


----------



## Ware

Stro3579 said:


> Let me rephrase my statement. Every yard varies. If you already have a established yard and bag every cut. Have a small amount of thatch build up. I would bypast the verticut before top dressing. If you have a lot of build up of thatch, then yes....verticut or dethatch as much as possible.


While I appreciate your opinion, I _strongly_ disagree for the reasons noted. :thumbup:


----------



## Stro3579

Ridgerunner said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I think it's a waste of time and money to verticut before top dressing. I would scalp and bag(every angle) areate, remove plugs if you can or roll them. I would then top dress heavy enough to create new top surface over whatever thatch is left. The thatch will be covered and will break down into your soil. Just my 2 cents...
> 
> 
> 
> Unless your goal is to reduce organic matter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Slicing/cutting stolons (and rhizomes) also promotes new daughter plant growth.
Click to expand...

Never said I don't verticut or against it. I feel if your yard isn't full of thatch then you don't have to verticut before too dressing(heavy).
I personally dethatch once a season. Which is when I do my first scalp.


----------



## Stro3579

:thumbup:


Ware said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Let me rephrase my statement. Every yard varies. If you already have a established yard and bag every cut. Have a small amount of thatch build up. I would bypast the verticut before top dressing. If you have a lot of build up of thatch, then yes....verticut or dethatch as much as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> While I appreciate your opinion, I _strongly_ disagree for the reasons noted. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

 Feel ya. Don't get me wrong, if I owned a verticut. I would use it as often as possible.


----------



## Llano Estacado

I have reserved a over seeder(poor mans verticutter), aerator and yard vac for next weekend. Was going to schedule sand delivery for sometime next week. Got to thinking is it too early to start a leveling job? My yard is out of dormancy and greening up quickly. Average high next week is going to be around 78 average low 48.


----------



## Ware

Llano Estacado said:


> I have reserved a over seeder(poor mans verticutter), aerator and yard vac for next weekend. Was going to schedule sand delivery for sometime next week. Got to thinking is it too early to start a leveling job? My yard is out of dormancy and greening up quickly. Average high next week is going to be around 78 average low 48.


As long as the grass is greened up and growing you should be fine. I'm a proponent of leveling in the spring. The recovery may be a little slower while the average daily temps are cooler, but for me it's more tolerable work when it isn't so hot outside... and then once it has fully recovered you get to enjoy it for the whole season. :thumbup:


----------



## Llano Estacado

Ware said:


> Llano Estacado said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have reserved a over seeder(poor mans verticutter), aerator and yard vac for next weekend. Was going to schedule sand delivery for sometime next week. Got to thinking is it too early to start a leveling job? My yard is out of dormancy and greening up quickly. Average high next week is going to be around 78 average low 48.
> 
> 
> 
> As long as the grass is greened up and growing you should be fine. I'm a proponent of leveling in the spring. The recovery may be a little slower while the average daily temps are cooler, but for me it's more tolerable work when it isn't so hot outside... and then once it has fully recovered you get to enjoy it for the whole season. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

A friend who is one of the owners of a local tree nursery and landscape company just told me he thinks its a perfect time as well.

Thanks! Looking forward to some good ol' fashion back breaking labor next weeking. :lol:


----------



## green is king 01

How soon after laying new sod could you top dress with sand? I just had it put down and I'm wondering if late June early July would be okay to top dress roughly 1/2 inch at most (in lowest spots)? Then top dress again next summer another 1/2 inch or so?? Thoughts?


----------



## Ware

green is king 01 said:


> How soon after laying new sod could you top dress with sand? I just had it put down and I'm wondering if late June early July would be okay to top dress roughly 1/2 inch at most (in lowest spots)? Then top dress again next summer another 1/2 inch or so?? Thoughts?


I think that would be fine.


----------



## green is king 01

Thanks Ware! Good to hear! I'm anxious to get the smooth lawn you and some others have!!


----------



## Ware

green is king 01 said:


> ...I'm anxious to get the smooth lawn you and some others have!!


Having a smooth lawn is very addictive. :thumbup:

Concretestorm leveled some pretty fresh Lat 36 last year with great success.


----------



## green is king 01

Just read through concretestorm thread. This is very encouraging. Thanks!


----------



## balistek

why do some sources online state that adding sand over clay soils are a bad thing. I see it done here with great success. One side the fence says it helps with drainage and getting nutrients deeper into the roots. The other side the fence says it turns the soil composition into "concrete". Curious as to why there is such a disparity in outcomes depending on the source you cite.


----------



## Ware

balistek said:


> why do some sources online state that adding sand over clay soils are a bad thing. I see it done here with great success. One side the fence says it helps with drainage and getting nutrients deeper into the roots. The other side the fence says it turns the soil composition into "concrete". Curious as to why there is such a disparity in outcomes depending on the source you cite.


I have seen this claim too. I have no experience with clay soils, but FWIW I do know there is not a section of the soil triangle labeled "concrete".


----------



## Greendoc

Here's what i do to badly structured soils that are poorly drained and aerated. They get sand capped. That is a process where sand is repeatedly applied such that a new rootzone is created above the bad soil. I repeat sand topdressings until I have created an average layer 2-3" above the dirt. I do not need to consider this in places where the natural sand is not altered. I need to do this where clay soils have been pasted over the top of perfectly good sand. Landscapers in Hawaii have a sand phobia. Their first inclination if they see sand is to paste over with clay mixed with 50% organic matter. Tilling in a small amount of sand will make "concrete". Tilling in more than a trace of organic matter makes adobe, as in adobe bricks. So by doing what they do, they have the makings of very good bricks. Only corrective short of excavation and replacement with sand is to sand cap.


----------



## balistek

ah, my plan was to core aerate, collect the plugs, then put sand into the newly created columns. I plan to use sand to level over the next few years. But I was going to aerate and sand in the first go around. After that, I was going to look into all these new liquid aeration products like Air8. I'd like to improve drainage on my property in every way that I can. I just want to make sure that my plan is advisable. I live in lower Lousiana. I am hour north of the Gulf of Mexico. I have never had a soil structure analysis, but I'd wager I have a clay dense soil. I am trying to improve my soil structure to improve drainage and yield better turf. I'd love to eventually get that "reel" low lawn too. Just reading these sources make you second guess options you see here with great success. That being said, I have never seen anyone on here aerate then fill columns of of removed dirt with sand. MOre just top dressing to level undulations in the land. Am I doing an advisable thing by proceeding with aerate then sand considering the suspected clay content of my soil.


----------



## SCGrassMan

So back to my thread 

The sand arrived today, but unfortunately the person who was going to help me had a death in the family so it will be a solo project.

How much sand is too much on top of Zoysia? I have a couple of very low spots - is it better to do multiple levellings over time to bring those up I'm guessing? Probably in the 1-2" range.


----------



## Greendoc

Aeration and then putting sand down the holes is wasted material and work unless you are doing this to a sand based golf green. It is also wasted work unless you are going to pull so many plugs that there is going to be more sand than clay when you are done. That means many passes with the aerator and a lot of sand. You get more mileage from sand capping bad soil. Soil in my area is extremely dense clay.


----------



## Greendoc

SCGrassMan said:


> So back to my thread
> 
> The sand arrived today, but unfortunately the person who was going to help me had a death in the family so it will be a solo project.
> 
> How much sand is too much on top of Zoysia? I have a couple of very low spots - is it better to do multiple levellings over time to bring those up I'm guessing? Probably in the 1-2" range.


An inch at a time is as much as I would do. Might have to do it 2-3 times. At that point, you have just sand capped the lawn. Sand capped lawns are a joy to reel cut.. No divots and no mud.


----------



## Ware

balistek said:


> ...I live in lower Lousiana. I am hour north of the Gulf of Mexico. I have never had a soil structure analysis, but I'd wager I have a clay dense soil...


If you are planning to do any soil testing, it may be worth paying for a formal texture analysis to see what you have exactly. Waypoint charges $25 in addition to their $16.50 M3 test. Alternatively, there are ways to do it at home with a jar.


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> balistek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I live in lower Lousiana. I am hour north of the Gulf of Mexico. I have never had a soil structure analysis, but I'd wager I have a clay dense soil...
> 
> 
> 
> If you are planning to do any soil testing, it may be worth paying for a formal texture analysis to see what you have exactly. Waypoint charges $25 in addition to their $16.50 M3 test. Alternatively, there are ways to do it at home with a jar.
Click to expand...

That map confuses me. According to it, I should have soil that's pretty close to what I had in NY. And that friends, just ain't so. Downstate NY had silt, a little loam, and an unholy amount of rock. Upstate SC, at least where I am, is red clay. Heavy rains run right of the top and aeration plugs dried and loaded in a .50 cal would be armor piercing. :lol:


----------



## Spammage

MasterMech said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> balistek said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I live in lower Lousiana. I am hour north of the Gulf of Mexico. I have never had a soil structure analysis, but I'd wager I have a clay dense soil...
> 
> 
> 
> If you are planning to do any soil testing, it may be worth paying for a formal texture analysis to see what you have exactly. Waypoint charges $25 in addition to their $16.50 M3 test. Alternatively, there are ways to do it at home with a jar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That map confuses me. According to it, I should have soil that's pretty close to what I had in NY. And that friends, just ain't so. Downstate NY had silt, a little loam, and an unholy amount of rock. Upstate SC, at least where I am, is red clay. Heavy rains run right of the top and aeration plugs dried and loaded in a .50 cal would be armor piercing. :lol:
Click to expand...

Seems pretty dead on to me. Silty clay...


----------



## MasterMech

I'm in the light blue area of SC, sandy loam, haven't found any yet!


----------



## SCGrassMan

Greendoc said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> So back to my thread
> 
> The sand arrived today, but unfortunately the person who was going to help me had a death in the family so it will be a solo project.
> 
> How much sand is too much on top of Zoysia? I have a couple of very low spots - is it better to do multiple levellings over time to bring those up I'm guessing? Probably in the 1-2" range.
> 
> 
> 
> An inch at a time is as much as I would do. Might have to do it 2-3 times. At that point, you have just sand capped the lawn. Sand capped lawns are a joy to reel cut.. No divots and no mud.
Click to expand...

I didn't know I could do that much. It will grow through all that sand?


----------



## Greendoc

Sure will. How hot does it get in your area? Hotter it is, the faster the Zoysia grows. I do have a moratorium on topdressing and scalping on my lawns until the daytime temperatures are consistently over 75*. In the past 10 years, Hawaii has been going through a decade of cool, cloudy, and wet weather that stays that way just about all year long. Maintaining fine turf become a trick with it always on the verge of dormancy.


----------



## SCGrassMan

It gets pretty hot! I've got it pretty well scalped already. And I sort of have the sand, so if I want a driveway again... time to spread it  I think it will only be a couple of limited areas where it would be that deep.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Too much, not enough, or just right? Haven't watered it in as we are supposed to get rain for two days.

@ware what you think?


----------



## SGrabs33

@Ware your opinion has been requested.

I think it looks :thumbup:


----------



## Greendoc

A little light, but hard to tell until it is watered in. My idea of watering in involves a very high flow water hose. In ground irrigation systems don't do it. Neither does a hose not passing 10 GPM or more.


----------



## Ware

SCGrassMan said:


> Too much, not enough, or just right? Haven't watered it in as we are supposed to get rain for two days.
> 
> @ware what you think?


Looks good to me! :thumbup:


----------



## SCGrassMan

Too light is Ok. I can do more after the rain. Just want to make sure I'm not making a massive mistake lol. Thanks guys!

And a special thanks to @Topcat for lending me his drag mat, our new shared leveling rake, and showing me his yard and Swardman. A solid dude!


----------



## Topcat

@SCGrassMan, no worries, just sorry that I was not able to participate. After being way for the last couple of weeks, I am woefully behind on *EVERYTHING*. I think my first level exercise will be the last week of May. You leveling looks on point.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> @SCGrassMan, no worries, just sorry that I was not able to participate. After being way for the last couple of weeks, I am woefully behind on *EVERYTHING*. I think my first level exercise will be the last week of May. You leveling looks on point.


No worries man! Don't think that means I won't still come help you when you're ready. I do think we need to put together a low country gathering.

Gathering. Nobody should have to explain to all of their neighbors alone while they are shoveling sand all over their lawn!


----------



## SCGrassMan

I'm so nervous I'm going to kill my lawn with sand lol. I put down milorganite and SeaHume before the sand too, and now I'm watering everything in (despite expecting rain tomorrow) because I'm impatient.

Honestly I haven't even taken the rake out of the box, I've been using a big push broom and the drag mat exclusively, but I plan to try it out on the backyard to compare and contrast.


----------



## Greendoc

Ha! Over here, shoveling sand all over the lawn makes the neighbors envious because that means the homeowner can afford to do so.


----------



## Greendoc

SCGrassMan said:


> I'm so nervous I'm going to kill my lawn with sand lol. I put down milorganite and SeaHume before the sand too, and now I'm watering everything in (despite expecting rain tomorrow) because I'm impatient.
> 
> Honestly I haven't even taken the rake out of the box, I've been using a big push broom and the drag mat exclusively, but I plan to try it out on the backyard to compare and contrast.


Sand not watered in and settled into the crowns of the grass will smother it. Worst smothering I have seen was when an idiot put on over 3" of sand at once and used a screed to level as if finishing the concrete for a sidewalk. All of the Zoysia was under at least 3" of sand. Everything under that sand died except for the Purple Nutsedge. I talk about sand capping, but that is done in 1" increments with time for the grass to grow through the first inch before adding another.


----------



## SCGrassMan

The DEEPEST spot might be 3/4" - the spot I tread on frequently to go around back. I can't imagine the mental process someone would go through to put 3" of sand down on top of grass.

What I fight is neighbors on either side who don't mow or kill weeds. I've begun helping the one of them that hasn't sued me before 

I'll take some more pics tomorrow post watering and rain and see what y'all think. Appreciate the input and encouragement as always!


----------



## Greendoc

3/4" is nothing to be afraid of. What I do is scalp so I can see where the sand needs to be, then go for it. Of course, touching grass when has just come out of full dormancy is foreign to me. Then again, with no sun in Hawaii since February, I do not imagine doing anything extreme to a lawn until May or June.


----------



## SCGrassMan

My main driver is that I had irrigation trenches dug, so I want to do what I can to smooth things out now so I don't catch the raised edges of resodded areas with the mower as much.

I will probably do another round in a month or two as I can tell it's gonna need it. I'm going for that "sandcapped Yard" mentioned before but it will take awhile


----------



## Greendoc

SCGrassMan said:


> The DEEPEST spot might be 3/4" - the spot I tread on frequently to go around back._* I can't imagine the mental process someone would go through to put 3" of sand down on top of grass.*_
> 
> What I fight is neighbors on either side who don't mow or kill weeds. I've begun helping the one of them that hasn't sued me before
> 
> I'll take some more pics tomorrow post watering and rain and see what y'all think. Appreciate the input and encouragement as always!


It's called being a DF. Burying a lawn in over 3" of sand. Worse still, it was sand made from ground up coral so the soil got its chemistry totally deranged.

As for neighbors, one of my neighbors is super cool. He knows what I do and just gives me a yell if he needs something. I gladly do it. The other one grows a weed farm except for the one time a year he spends all afternoon cutting down and digging up a mess. When I had a break from the rain a few weeks ago, one particularly bad area of his got RoundUp and Crossbow.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Greendoc said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> The DEEPEST spot might be 3/4" - the spot I tread on frequently to go around back.* I can't imagine the mental process someone would go through to put 3" of sand down on top of grass.*
> 
> What I fight is neighbors on either side who don't mow or kill weeds. I've begun helping the one of them that hasn't sued me before
> 
> I'll take some more pics tomorrow post watering and rain and see what y'all think. Appreciate the input and encouragement as always!
> 
> 
> 
> It's called being a DF.
> 
> As for neighbors, one of my neighbors is super cool. He knows what I do and just gives me a yell if he needs something. I gladly do it. The other one grows a weed farm except for the one time a year he spends all afternoon cutting down and digging up a mess. When I had a break from the rain a few weeks ago, one particularly bad area of his got RoundUp and Crossbow.
Click to expand...

I was like "designated friendly? OHHHHH!"

Yeah I did 4 peoples yards with Atrazine for them today (with permission), one of which is my cool neighbor. I'm just going to start sending violation letters to the other guy through the HOA.

At this point his yard is greater than 50% weeds. He also has only a push reel mower (which I gave him) since he left his mower outside for a year to get rained on.

It's tough adjoining property with somebody who doesn't care at all what their yard looks like. I mean, a bit off topic here... and you don't have to have a greens mower and join a forum and all that, but cut your grass and put down weed killer and fertilizer once or twice a year. It's neither difficult nor expensive.


----------



## jayhawk

If it doesn't rain get the hose out. I'd agree with greendoc ...irrigation isn't as effective (water droplet too fine). You'll be surprised how much it sinks.

You're fine.....find something else to focus on &#128512;


----------



## Gibby

Greendoc said:


> Ha! Over here, shoveling sand all over the lawn makes the neighbors envious because that means the homeowner can afford to do so.


How much does the sand cost there?


----------



## Greendoc

Sand is $300 a ton not including delivery.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Greendoc said:


> Ha! Over here, shoveling sand all over the lawn makes the neighbors envious because that means the homeowner can afford to do so.


Tongue in cheek, but can't you just go to the beach and load up the truck?


----------



## Greendoc

Colonel K0rn said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha! Over here, shoveling sand all over the lawn makes the neighbors envious because that means the homeowner can afford to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Tongue in cheek, but can't you just go to the beach and load up the truck?
Click to expand...

One could. Then face officers from the Department of Land and Natural Resources as well as the Honolulu Police Department. You are subject to a fine that may be $100,000. Especially if your sand harvesting is connected to sale of sand or usage for commercial purposes such as topdressing a lawn.


----------



## Flynt2799

SCGrassMan said:


> Too much, not enough, or just right? Haven't watered it in as we are supposed to get rain for two days.


Looks good man. I plan on tackeling my lawn in a week or so once I get some more growth. Question for you, when you came to the edge of your driveway and grass did you fill this in or just try to keep sand away from your edges?


----------



## Gibby

I think I am going to do mine in a couple weeks. Probably going to buy a drag mat and try out the pallet idea too.


----------



## Flynt2799

Found this on YouTube. Like to know what you guys think, worth a shot or just order the drag mat.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Flynt2799 said:


> Found this on YouTube. Like to know what you guys think, worth a shot or just order the drag mat.


Just order the drag mat


----------



## SCGrassMan

Flynt2799 said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too much, not enough, or just right? Haven't watered it in as we are supposed to get rain for two days.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks good man. I plan on tackeling my lawn in a week or so once I get some more growth. Question for you, when you came to the edge of your driveway and grass did you fill this in or just try to keep sand away from your edges?
Click to expand...

Thanks man! I tried to fill in the edges as well.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Colonel K0rn said:


> Flynt2799 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Found this on YouTube. Like to know what you guys think, worth a shot or just order the drag mat.
> 
> 
> 
> Just order the drag mat
Click to expand...

Seconded. The drag mat is really nice.


----------



## Ware

It would probably work, but I have done several leveling projects and have not regretted investing in the drag mat.


----------



## Darrell

Is it too early to topdress?


----------



## SCGrassMan

So here's how the front yard looks after some rain - does it need more watering in?


----------



## Ware

Darrell said:


> Is it too early to topdress?


It really depends on your expectations/patience. I did my first major leveling project in April and had no regrets. I wanted it done before a party we were hosting in June.

I think the biggest con is slower recovery because the grass isn't growing as fast this time of year. For me the pros were I was able to piggyback off of my spring scalp, the weather was more favorable for doing the manual labor, and after I finished I was able to enjoy it for basically the whole season (versus having to reset later in the summer).

Here are some photos - it took about 4 weeks to recover.

April 13









May 1









May 12


----------



## Ware

SCGrassMan said:


> So here's how the front yard looks after some rain - does it need more watering in?


How much rain? I wouldn't be afraid to give it some more water if the ground will accept it.


----------



## Gibby

Anyone use a dingo to move the sand around? I will have about 10 yards to spread over 10,000sq/ft.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Ware said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So here's how the front yard looks after some rain - does it need more watering in?
> 
> 
> 
> How much rain? I wouldn't be afraid to give it some more water if the ground will accept it.
Click to expand...

0.35" predicted according to Rachio  but it's supposed to rain tomorrow too. I just don't want to look like an idiot watering sand into my lawn during a rainstorm, but hey... if that's what I gotta do


----------



## Ware

Gibby said:


> Anyone use a dingo to move the sand around? I will have about 10 yards to spread over 10,000sq/ft.


I considered one of those, but ultimately didn't go that route. They have a land plane attachment that I thought might work well for the initial spreading of the sand. My biggest concern would be the damage caused by the tracks or wheels.


----------



## Gibby

Ware said:


> Gibby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone use a dingo to move the sand around? I will have about 10 yards to spread over 10,000sq/ft.
> 
> 
> 
> I considered one of those, but ultimately didn't go that route. They have a land plane attachment that I thought might work well for the initial spreading of the sand. My biggest concern would be the damage caused by the tracks or wheels.
Click to expand...

I saw that attachment to and had the same concerns, but I was thinking about just using it for dumping scoops of sand throughout the yard.


----------



## Tex86

In early May I'll be ordering about 4 yards of Masonry Sand to begin my first leveling project after I aerate the yard. I had two concerns, but this thread resolved the one about having "too much sand" on the bermuda. However, I read that as long as it's not above an inch, and the blades are sticking out, it should grow/spread if watered in properly. That leads us to my next concern

My other concern is my back yard (which has a downhill easement)is the largest area (2k sq/ft)I'll be leveling and it gets a bunch of sun. 9+ hours worth. I am concerned about how frequently I need to water it in and how. I don't have an irrigation system, so I am thinking watering it by hand will be best as the impact sprinkler may displace sand when the water lands.

Maybe it's because I haven't had my coffee this morning, so forgive me for being elementary when I ask this, but is the "high pressure hose" just a garden hose without a attachment nozzle or a free flowing open hose? For zero line yards, I don't see that being an issue, but since I have an easement, wouldn't it just push the sand to the bottom of the easement? Trying to think this through, but I feel like I'm over complicating this.


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## J_nick

Turning with the tracks would tear up the grass. I wouldn't do it. The dingo would save your back from filling a wheelbarrow or dump cart.


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## SCGrassMan

My vote, which is easy since it's your money, do the irrigation first. Then aerating and leveling.


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## Gibby

J_nick said:


> Turning with the tracks would tear up the grass. I wouldn't do it. The dingo would save your back from filling a wheelbarrow or dump cart.


I do have a 10cu ft dump cart... Since I will be doing this myself, I might just get the dingo to fill the dump cart. Or whatever they have to rent with a bucket that is the cheapest.


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## Llano Estacado

Gibby said:


> Ware said:
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> Gibby said:
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> Anyone use a dingo to move the sand around? I will have about 10 yards to spread over 10,000sq/ft.
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> I considered one of those, but ultimately didn't go that route. They have a land plane attachment that I thought might work well for the initial spreading of the sand. My biggest concern would be the damage caused by the tracks or wheels.
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> I saw that attachment to and had the same concerns, but I was thinking about just using it for dumping scoops of sand throughout the yard.
Click to expand...

This weekend I did 4 yards over 4500 sq ft. About half of what you're looking at. I did it all in one day without any problems. Worked from about 10am until 7pm, taking a break for lunch and dinner. Knowing what I know now I think I could do 10k sq ft with just my wheel barrow, landscape rake and drag mat. I'd just do it over two days instead of one. I was a much easier process than I was expecting. I riding mower would be nice for the drag mat though!


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## Gibby

Llano Estacado said:


> Gibby said:
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> Ware said:
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> I considered one of those, but ultimately didn't go that route. They have a land plane attachment that I thought might work well for the initial spreading of the sand. My biggest concern would be the damage caused by the tracks or wheels.
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> I saw that attachment to and had the same concerns, but I was thinking about just using it for dumping scoops of sand throughout the yard.
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> Click to expand...
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> This weekend I did 4 yards over 4500 sq ft. About half of what you're looking at. I did it all in one day without any problems. Worked from about 10am until 7pm, taking a break for lunch and dinner. Knowing what I know now I think I could do 10k sq ft with just my wheel barrow, landscape rake and drag mat. I'd just do it over two days instead of one. I was a much easier process than I was expecting. I riding mower would be nice for the drag mat though!
Click to expand...

I usually only have 1 day on the weekends to do yard work. I do have a riding mower and will be ordering a drag mat.


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## Llano Estacado

Gibby said:


> J_nick said:
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> Turning with the tracks would tear up the grass. I wouldn't do it. The dingo would save your back from filling a wheelbarrow or dump cart.
> 
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> I do have a 10cu ft dump cart... Since I will be doing this myself, I might just get the dingo to fill the dump cart. Or whatever they have to rent with a bucket that is the cheapest.
Click to expand...

Also what worked for me was smaller piles spaced closer together. I put 7 standard size shovel loads of sand the the wheel barrow then dumped it. Kept the pile size easy to spread and I was not sore at all from the shoveling or extra trips back and forth to the pile. The raking is what takes the most effort, the bigger the pile the more raking you'll have to do. At least for me thats how it was.


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## Topcat

SCGrassMan said:


> Ware said:
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> So here's how the front yard looks after some rain - does it need more watering in?
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> How much rain? I wouldn't be afraid to give it some more water if the ground will accept it.
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> Click to expand...
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> 0.35" predicted according to Rachio  but it's supposed to rain tomorrow too. I just don't want to look like an idiot watering sand into my lawn during a rainstorm, but hey... if that's what I gotta do
Click to expand...

My station registered just shy of a quarter inch. I'd put a little more water on it and not wait to see how much rain tomorrow brings... but that is just me. Besides, the neighbors already think you are nutz by burying that pretty lawn under a layer of sand.. :lol: . I know mine were asking all sorts of questions when I did mine last year.


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## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> SCGrassMan said:
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> Ware said:
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> How much rain? I wouldn't be afraid to give it some more water if the ground will accept it.
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> 0.35" predicted according to Rachio  but it's supposed to rain tomorrow too. I just don't want to look like an idiot watering sand into my lawn during a rainstorm, but hey... if that's what I gotta do
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> Click to expand...
> 
> My station registered just shy of a quarter inch. I'd put a little more water on it and not wait to see how much rain tomorrow brings... but that is just me. Besides, the neighbors already think you are nutz by burying that pretty lawn under a layer of sand.. :lol: . I know mine were asking all sorts of questions when I did mine last year.
Click to expand...

You're not wrong! May as well enjoy my fancy hose reel and water it in some more


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## Darrell

Is there an advantage of one sand texture over another? I put out some as a top dress, in the sand is pretty fine. I'm wondering about acquiring some course or sand for the rest of the yard. If that's the way to go, what type of sand do I ask for?


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## Gibby

Darrell said:


> Is there an advantage of one sand texture over another? I put out some as a top dress, in the sand is pretty fine. I'm wondering about acquiring some course or sand for the rest of the yard. If that's the way to go, what type of sand do I ask for?


I think most everyone is using mason sand for leveling.


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## Darrell

Gibby said:


> Darrell said:
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> 
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> Is there an advantage of one sand texture over another? I put out some as a top dress, in the sand is pretty fine. I'm wondering about acquiring some course or sand for the rest of the yard. If that's the way to go, what type of sand do I ask for?
> 
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> I think most everyone is using mason sand for leveling.
Click to expand...

Thanks


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## Topcat

How is the Zoysia responding to the leveling? Sand settling in and grass filling in yet?


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## daviddsims

I'm curious how centipede would do with sand?


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## Greendoc

Centipede would love it. However, that sand must not be made of high Calcium or alkaline materials. Anything containing salt is also out.


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## Gibby

Greendoc said:


> Centipede would love it. However, that sand must not be made of high Calcium or alkaline materials. Anything containing salt is also out.


Just when I start to understand something @Greendoc comes in and scrambles my brain lol


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## Greendoc

Forgive me. I am commercial. I have to operate under IPM
*I*
*P*ay
for
*M*istakes

In my area, there are three kinds of sand available for topdressing and leveling lawns. One is ground up coral. Next is ground up Basaltic rock. Finally, there is silica sand imported from Australia. Coral will kill Centipede. So will "sand" that is ground up limestone or rock containing a lot of limestone. I have heard of river sand. That can be ok, unless a lot of the parent material is limestone. Centipede hates coral and hates limestone. Hope I made it less confusing.


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## Gibby

Greendoc said:


> Forgive me. I am commercial. I have to operate under IPM
> *I*
> *P*ay
> for
> *M*istakes
> 
> In my area, there are three kinds of sand available for topdressing and leveling lawns. One is ground up coral. Next is ground up Basaltic rock. Finally, there is silica sand imported from Australia. Coral will kill Centipede. So will "sand" that is ground up limestone or rock containing a lot of limestone. I have heard of river sand. That can be ok, unless a lot of the parent material is limestone. Centipede hates coral and hates limestone. Hope I made it less confusing.


I keep forgetting your location, but you did make me wonder if I could find sand that is acidic here to help my PH levels.


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## Greendoc

That "sand" would have to be more like Iron ore or Sulfur ore. A Centipede lawn needing professional attention is like finding a Unicorn in Hawaii. Centipede is the lawn used where there is too much rain and the soil is too acid for Bermuda, Seashore Paspalum or Zoysia to be self maintaining. People in that situation just mow it when it gets long and do not worry about it. The soil is so acid and devoid of nutrients, that not even weeds grow. On the other hand, a lawn with the other grasses growing on salty and high pH grows some gnarly weeds. Those lawns need a lot of weed control.

In your situation, I would level with sand that is not limestone based and start spreading sulfur. I believe it takes 50 lb of material per 1000 sq ft to lower the pH 1 point on the scale if the soil is more clay like. Sand or loam might need only 1/4 as much. You must not apply more than 5 lb of Sulfur at a time unless you are tilling it in.

Other option is 95% Sulfuric acid applied at 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft. When concentrated, it is exactly what you are thinking. I apply mine through an all plastic hose end spray gun set to mix at 1 oz per gallon. At an oz per gallon it is no worse than vinegar or lemon juice. When the acid is in concentrated form it is very important that small quantities of water do not go into it. Remember grade school science class? Acid into water only. Not the other way around. I was telling @thegrassfactor about this process. He knew I was out there at that point.

The third, safer option is if you can apply 1-2 lb of Citric Acid as a spray monthly. Then water it in. Citric Acid can be bought from either industrial chemical vendors or even the big A. That can be done during while waiting for the applications of Sulfur to work. It takes 1-2 months for it to change the soil pH. I remember working on a lawn where the soil pH was 7.5. The Bermuda refused to green up. I started spraying that lawn with a mix that contained 2 lb of Citric Acid and 2 lb of Sulfur in addition to Iron and fertilizer monthly. Grass got green and stayed green after the second application.


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## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> How is the Zoysia responding to the leveling? Sand settling in and grass filling in yet?


It's settling in nicely, I'll take some pics later. I did the front but not the back yet. Got sidetracked by the 40th birthday celebrations 

Grass is definitely coming out of dormancy in the more sunny areas. I found that for the front at least, a big shop broom and the drag mat were plenty for smoothing.

I'll also probably do another round of leveling in a couple months.


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## raldridge2315

Gibby said:


> Greendoc said:
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> 
> 
> Centipede would love it. However, that sand must not be made of high Calcium or alkaline materials. Anything containing salt is also out.
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> Just when I start to understand something @Greendoc comes in and scrambles my brain lol
Click to expand...

That's part of his job!


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## SCGrassMan

Note: I will edit later on from a computer to add comments. This is the back yard I'm leveling today, and then two pics of the front yard a couple weeks post leveling.


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## Topcat

Looks good. I think I will do my first round of leveling the second week of May. The temp swings are still playing havoc with a constant green up and vigorous growth. I am about 90% green, but after each 40 degree night, I notice the lawn's bright green turn to a dull green/brown color.

I hope this last week is the last of the 40 degree nights.


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## Suaverc118

@SCGrassMan , how many pounds of sand did you use?


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## SCGrassMan

Topcat said:


> Looks good. I think I will do my first round of leveling the second week of May. The temp swings are still playing havoc with a constant green up and vigorous growth. I am about 90% green, but after each 40 degree night, I notice the lawn's bright green turn to a dull green/brown color.
> 
> I hope this last week is the last of the 40 degree nights.


Thanks! I bought the sand before heading to wait so I kind of had to just go for it.


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## SCGrassMan

Suaverc118 said:


> @SCGrassMan , how many pounds of sand did you use?


I bought 2 cubic yards of sand to do the front and back which is about 3k square feet. I probably could have used 3, but 2 was ok as well.


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## Suaverc118

SCGrassMan said:


> Suaverc118 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @SCGrassMan , how many pounds of sand did you use?
> 
> 
> 
> I bought 2 cubic yards of sand to do the front and back which is about 3k square feet. I probably could have used 3, but 2 was ok as well.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I have about 2,500 sq ft of front yard that I want to do. I'm assuming 2 cubic yards should be enough.


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## SCGrassMan

Go for 2.5-3. I had some areas I couldn't do that a few more wheelbarrows full would have done.


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## SCGrassMan

What do y'all think, has the sand "settled" enough to mow again? Or wait longer? I'm at 3/4" HOC.


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## J_nick

Go for it! Pick up that stick first :mrgreen:


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## SCGrassMan

J_nick said:


> Go for it! Pick up that stick first :mrgreen:


Yeah thanks lol. Actually the biggest obstacle is a random dime sitting on the ground that I've repeatedly ignored for some reason... I keep imagining it getting caught between the bedknife and the reel :-/


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## Bermuda_Newbie

Tex86 said:


> Maybe it's because I haven't had my coffee this morning, so forgive me for being elementary when I ask this, but is the "high pressure hose" just a garden hose without a attachment nozzle or a free flowing open hose? For zero line yards, I don't see that being an issue, but since I have an easement, wouldn't it just push the sand to the bottom of the easement? Trying to think this through, but I feel like I'm over complicating this.


I realize this is old but did you ever get an answer to your question? I'm going to level in a few weeks and I was wondering the same thing. Do you just put a hose on the lawn and turn it on or is there some special technique to water in? I was planning on using my sprinklers but after reading this I'm second guessing.


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