# Flynavy's reno thread: updates and questions



## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

I wanted to start a thread to provide updates, and hopefully pool together some advice from all of you experienced folks. First off, my lawn is growing like crazy and its super cool to see bare spots fill in like magic. I moved here in December and was constantly told I need to give it a year or two to even see progress so I'm happy with the progress I've made. For full disclosure I'll provide everything I've done, both good and bad.

-Put down 2 apps of milorganite in the early days before researching, just wanted to do SOMETHING
-Spread an entire bag of contractors mix by Pennington, and gave up watering it when I realized how dumb it is to use this on Bermuda. Well, fast forward a few weeks and there was grass sprouting above the Bermuda, EVERYWHERE! This was dumb to do, right? Either way, its giving my grass a lush feel for the time being.
-Threw down a light applications of starter fertilizer, and seeded the bare areas by my patio with fescue, its starting to take off too.
-I had 4yds of rich mix top soil delivered and learned many lessons. The idea was leveling but it was honestly difficult to work with. It doesn't spread like fine sand. I'm happy I was able to fix a lot of real bad areas and I'm sure the 20% compost is only helping the crap soil.

My main problem now is still the drainage issues. After the last heavy rain I really tried to figure out the culprit, I did some dye tests using creamer to see where the water flows. It appears theres a trench like shape to the middle of the yard that lets water flow to the left, away from the area of sitting water. The sitting water just... well sits. The neighbor on the other side of this sitting water has ZERO sitting water so I'm left more confused.. Is it possible the fence is so rotted and stuffed with clay that its not allowing the designed drainage to work? Hoping you can see these photos and maybe come up with some suggestions. I do think grading in some fashion will be the fix but I don't know where/what to grade.

I cut my yard Saturday afternoon, and it is now Monday afternoon. I am blown away at how much growth there is. All I ever wanted was a lawn to cut, I think I got my wish. I'm sure one day I'll be over it, and avoiding it at all costs. But I'm a first time homeowner who wants a damn lawn!


Just a comparison of how its filling in, this is one month apart.


The arrow is kind of laying on the low area that carries water in that direction. The area I circled is where water sits. I can't tell if water is coming from my neighbors yard next to the sitting water, and pooling because of a high spot before the arrow, or if I need to allow water to run her way. What's the best way to figure it out?


Sitting water after our last heavy rain. With good sun its dried up in a day and a half ish. But the grass that remains just seems so week and doesn't want to spread like the rest of my lawn.


General overview of how everything is coming in and greening up nicely.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Any suggestions? I can't tell if I need to build up area by the fence, or dig it lower. It seems my neighbor is dumping water into my yard because hers is never flooded.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

flynavy812 said:


> Any suggestions? I can't tell if I need to build up area by the fence, or dig it lower. It seems my neighbor is dumping water into my yard because hers is never flooded.


My completely amateur opinion is that your only option to get the water gone is going to be out the front yard. The water has to go somewhere and with houses on 3 sides moving the water anywhere but out the front would just be transferring the issue to another yard. How is the relationship with the neighbor on the other side of the fence? It could be that the water was supposed to flow between the two houses to the front but the fence and other things changed the design over the years.

You could also try calling the power company and tell them that their box is sitting in water during rains. Maybe they would come out and do the work for you. Might be a reach but worth a try.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

TN Hawkeye said:


> flynavy812 said:
> 
> 
> > Any suggestions? I can't tell if I need to build up area by the fence, or dig it lower. It seems my neighbor is dumping water into my yard because hers is never flooded.
> ...


I don't know them too well, but the neighbor to my back said water is supposed to flow how I drew the area and then down his front lawn. I don't think I could get it to flow to my front, the side yard fills with water really bad. I plan to stone that area. I'm curious if I add more ground to the area if it will help, but I also don't know how her water flows next door so I'll try to watch with another rain.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

With the amount of activity on these forums I thought I would get a lot more opinions. I'm honestly stuck and really want to fix my backyard so I can enjoy it. I've emailed 4 local companies and haven't received responses. I don't want to keep dumping dirt either. I'm thinking DIY french drains to the street. No idea really.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

French drain to front. YouTube search French Drain Man.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ThomasPI

It's one of two issues though right? Water can't get into the soil fast or deep enough and it eventually pools, or the shape is causing it? I wonder if amending the soil and aerating a bunch would help or if that's another time waster.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Perimeter French Drain and perhaps a 2nd to drain middle and run the water from the perimeter to the street. Not a DYI job. You need to move water.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ThomasPI

I guess it's frustrating because I assume when the house was new these issues weren't present. So I thought I could restore whatever grade that was there but it sounds like this isn't the issue. What really confuses me is that neighbor having no issues, but I can't tell if extra water is coming from them.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

I hear you, I'd put a French Drain along the rear of property that will catch what comes in from neighbor, ie perimeter drain. Then tie that into same type drain running down the side where you have the issues and drain that to the street. You may get away with adjusting the grade where water pools in yard so that it's diverted to perimeter drain. If you're going to spend the coin, do it right and use the right materials. Watch those YouTube vids many many times and note the errors he fixes due to poor design where drains fail.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ThomasPI

I appreciate it, and I definitely want to do it right. I've sunk a good bit of money into the house so far and it's coming along great. This is my first house and I plan on selling in 4 years since that's how long I should be here. So I was trying to avoid spending too much and not seeing any returns. But I'm going to binge that guys videos today and come up with a plan. For what it's worth I do have one quote so far for a drain and it's around 2300.00 that would include 3 catch basins all the way under sidewalk to the street.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Good deal once you've got a good feel for the right way, you'll know what questions to ask contractors. The pipe is the key and of course prep and design. My dad told me years ago "you don't dig a $2.00 hole for a $20.00 rose", rest his soul that's always stuck with me.

Where are you stationed? We live just outside of Pensacola NAS. So close in fact we are in the flight path of the Blues and they rattle the walls of the house twice a week during practice, they'll fly over in formation maybe 500' over the roof top.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

If was selling the house in 3 years I probably wouldn't spend the coin on a french drain. I'd probably rig up a cheap sump pump to drain the area out to the street or nearest drain after a rain.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ThomasPI

Tinker AFB. And yes, I lived out the back gate and would watch them practice as well. Seems like yesterday. The beginning of flight school starts right there for all of us. Had a boat and would go as often as I could before I got busy.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat

I've also heard of people digging small trenches and laying gravel, fabric, and PVC with holes in it. Not leading anywhere but just there underneath... in theory this would allow excess water to get down and not stay on top and seems really cheap to do. Any drawbacks to this? The middle holds water but will drain in a few hours. I'm OK with some soggy areas as long as it doesn't keep killing any grass or make it hard to mow.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

flynavy812 said:


> @LawnRat
> 
> I've also heard of people digging small trenches and laying gravel, fabric, and PVC with holes in it. Not leading anywhere but just there underneath... in theory this would allow excess water to get down and not stay on top and seems really cheap to do. Any drawbacks to this? The middle holds water but will drain in a few hours. I'm OK with some soggy areas as long as it doesn't keep killing any grass or make it hard to mow.


I did something similar where the runoff from my patio was pooling up. I just buried the pvc/fabric/rocks to about 15' away, ended it in an elbow that faced down into a 4' deep pit I dug and filled with rock.

It's working great for my purpose but I'm not sure it will work for you with that much water coming from that large an area. And if the ground is saturated down many feet, increasing/lowering the seepage area won't help much. If you think it's not saturated deep but the water just can't get down there, try using a long probe to aerate the ground in that area...if you are lucky that will help it drain faster.

If aerating didn't work I'd bury a small catch basin (with or without lateral pipes feeding/expelling water) and put a cheap sump pump in it. It's not the 'right way' to do it, but it'll work.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

How bout just a drywell ?

Get a trash can for 30 bucks drill a bunch of wholes and bury it.

Done, the cost is in the form of time of digging.

Could even add a catch basin if you'd like.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

flynavy812 said:


> @LawnRat
> 
> I've also heard of people digging small trenches and laying gravel, fabric, and PVC with holes in it. Not leading anywhere but just there underneath... in theory this would allow excess water to get down and not stay on top and seems really cheap to do. Any drawbacks to this? The middle holds water but will drain in a few hours. I'm OK with some soggy areas as long as it doesn't keep killing any grass or make it hard to mow.


Do some research on the volume of water during say an hours down pour will generate. I'd read a while back that the surface area of a 2,000 sq ft roof will be pelted with some 20,000 gallons of water in an hour. You really need to move that water away from the rear. However if you're only staying in that house for 4 years, spending $ may not be worth it either.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat That's part of what I'm trying to figure out, is why exactly water can't continue. I took a shovel and went down a little near the fence the other day. It made the loudest suction sound as I pushed the shovel back and forth and it felt like I was separating gelatin. I can't think of how to explain it, but it was so slimy/wet/compacted. The people before were renters so it was absolutely abused for 3 years no doubt, so I'm trying to find out if I can amend the soil, aerate, and possibly get some good results that way. Or if I'm left with no option but to spend a bunch and do it up big.

What I do keep obsessing over though, and I've mentioned before, is how the hell is the neighbor on the other side of my fence not have ANY issues related to mine? Its literally fence and dry ground on one side, bam a lake on the other. But as far as I can tell their water isn't coming onto my side but I don't know how I would tell.

@Thick n Dense

I work with someone who did something similar only they said they used a 55 gallon drum, same concept. Drilled a bunch of holes and back filled with rock. Considering I just spread 5YDS of top soil by myself like an idiot, I'm sure I'm up to the challenge. That's what your 20's are for anyways, right? What's the difference between this and a catch basin though, isn't this essentially a big *** catch basin?

@ThomasPI

I saw this calculator on one the drain sites I emailed locally, I'll have to check it out. Man you have me digging up good memories now. We rented a house near the Target out the back gate. Boat ramp was a 5 minute drive. Also learned why its not a good idea to drive your boat and constantly park on the front lawn, I created my own drainage issue in that case but was easily fixed.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Lots of great times here, we are building on Innerarity Island. We are just off Gulf Beach Hwy and Dog Track Rd. Dead in the daily flight path. Blues should be flying over in an hour or so returning from the Maryland show. Target is maybe 2 min drive for us to Blue Angel.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

@flynavy812 
The catch basin is just the grate that leads to the drywell.

I think its your best bet when moving in 3 years.

No doubt that french to the street is thr best option, but not worth the short lived benefit.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@Thick n Dense

I agree, my other neighbor did his own drains and it seems to work great. But I don't want it to be sub-par and leave it on the next owner, I would be pissed if I bought a house and found half *** DIY drains. I learned some big lessons on my first house though. Bought in the cold months so a lot of these issues weren't super apparent to me, and I'm naive to begin with.. I'll be sure to update with what I go with.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

ThomasPI said:


> Lots of great times here, we are building on Innerarity Island. We are just off Gulf Beach Hwy and Dog Track Rd. Dead in the daily flight path. Blues should be flying over in an hour or so returning from the Maryland show. Target is maybe 2 min drive for us to Blue Angel.


I already forget the roads! I think blue angel leads you to the back gate, correct me if I'm wrong. I lived the neighborhood that you could get to by either going straight at the light, or a left onto blue angel, I think. Either way you would pass Target. I've moved 4 times since then and that was only 2 years ago. Some of the best fishing of my life was right out of the ramp on base into big lagoon.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Yes ur right and I know the neighborhood it's a 2 min drive. Man that's a lot of moving. Think I moved 3 times in my 4 years. The fishing here is off the chain and doesn't get much better.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

I know, I grew up in Florida so I'm a huge flats guy. I'm getting real tired of two things in Oklahoma so far... people asking if I'm in the Air Force, and people saying "Well, we do have some good lakes!" when I mention the fishing I'm used to.

My ideal plan is to make it back to Milton as an instructor pilot after my commitment here. I'm sure you've seen the T6's buzzing around on the outskirts of Pensacola. Not to be confused with the T6's that you see out of NAS Pensacola, those are the NFO's and we stay far away from them


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Alright guys, try not to laugh too hard. You ever get in that mindset that you just want to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING to your yard to help? Well that was me yesterday, so I picked up a ton of dirt in hopes the grading fairy with fix my issues. I knew deep down it wouldn't but I like to be outside with my free time.

Unless you've seen my other posts, you probably haven't seen the extension to my issue which is this side yard. Most neighbors say they have this issue too, but damn its bad. My plan for this was 3-5 inches of pretty rock. It will still flood, but you won't be walking on it. Is this a dumb idea?

Why does the water sit so bad? My rear neighbor said he slowly fixed his issues after moving in and now has ZERO standing water, which is amazing considering the rain we get here. He pointed to this left fence and said the water follows a path and drains great, and encouraged me to grade my lawn to push in that direction. Surprisingly, this is the left half of my lawn which doesn't seem to hold water. I thought it would be as simple as adding some dirt to the bad area and it would help push water right to left towards the area that drains well, I'm very very wrong.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Lot of water and no quick fix. You need to move it to the street and we see T6's all day long everyday lol. They'll be starting in an hour or so.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

ThomasPI said:


> Lot of water and no quick fix. You need to move it to the street and we see T6's all day long everyday lol. They'll be starting in an hour or so.


That's a real bummer.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Yes but adding fill is an attempt to displace water and as you see, no workie.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

ThomasPI said:


> Yes but adding fill is an attempt to displace water and as you see, no workie.


No workie indeed. My neighbors son is a civil engineer so I'm going to bend his ear on some drainage ideas. Trying to get this done soon. First baby on the way and work is about to get busy so I know my time will go bye bye. So will my daily naps.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

This picture with all that water against the house is a different story. 
Do you have a basement?

Water is bad for the foundation and should be moved away. 
I would make this area a higher priotity.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Thick n Dense said:


> This picture with all that water against the house is a different story.
> Do you have a basement?
> 
> Water is bad for the foundation and should be moved away.
> I would make this area a higher priotity.


No basement, just really orange clay soil. My plan was to fill it to death with rock so when it floods you at least could walk on it and it wouldn't be as ugly. But water would still be sitting there. Maybe just a real creative french drain for back and side is what I'm going to need.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

@flynavy812 my 1st house many years ago pooled toward the back corner fence in the back yard. I clandestinely took one of the boards that was not attached to a post in that corner and cut 6" off at the bottom. Basically the fence was blocking the water from draining through the neighbors back yard to the street. It continued to pool, but not for long. No more problem with standing water.

Just a thought.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

JRS 9572 said:


> @flynavy812 my 1st house many years ago pooled toward the back corner fence in the back yard. I clandestinely took one of the boards that was not attached to a post in that corner and cut 6" off at the bottom. Basically the fence was blocking the water from draining through the neighbors back yard to the street. It continued to pool, but not for long. No more problem with standing water.
> 
> Just a thought.


That was my original thought. The soil has become concrete like and its clearly blocking that 2-3 inch of fence that goes into the ground. But how would I know this will alleviate the issue? Do I just need to go for it and see what happens? I can get some close up pics to show you what it looks like if that would help. This seems like it could be the issue simply because there is zero standing water on her side, and I doubt she has perfect drainage.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

That last pic shows a dirt dam along the fence. Rake that dirt back into the low area and try and get the water to flow through somehow. If the neighbor's yard slopes the same as yours it may just keep on flowing.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat

I added that when I added a YD of soil this last weekend. The test was to see if it blocked her water from flowing into my yard but I see now how stupid it was.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

Well @flynavy812 If your handle means you're a naval aviator, then you will probably get the saying that was taught to me where I went to college. "Grab your @#$%^ and do it!" 

Worst case. You can replace the whole board later if it doesn't work out.

Basically what I did was remove the bottom portion approx 6" with a skill saw. It was my fence. Not the neighbors. Every once in a while I had to rake that area since the flood picked up all the old clippings and debris. That caused it to be concentrated at the opening because that's where all that runoff left.

Your other option is to build a "dry well." Then the flood waters would perk in that area into the soil. With most of it going into a container, then perking out through gravel. Or a french drain to carry it away.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Or as they told us in the USAF "watch your six" :mrgreen:


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

I was referencing "grab your balls, and do it."

In other words take a risk, have courage, and it just might work out.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@JRS 9572 I am a naval aviator, but fresh enough to still be an idiot. I've been grabbing my balls and running around my lawn since the day I've moved in. So much I didn't catch when we bought in the colder months. I'm down to get creative for sure. Fence idea worries me because my dogs are demons as is and will sure find a way under. I'm liking a dry well type idea though.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

flynavy812 said:


> @JRS 9572 I am a naval aviator, but fresh enough to still be an idiot. I've been grabbing my balls and running around my lawn since the day I've moved in. So much I didn't catch when we bought in the colder months. I'm down to get creative for sure. Fence idea worries me because my dogs are demons as is and will sure find a way under. I'm liking a dry well type idea though.


Could you drill some big holes through, or cut out a section and cover it with chickenwire/hardware cloth so the dogs can't get through but the water can?


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ktgrok I decided to get off my lazy *** and get some pictures, hopefully it helps somewhat. First off, this area is a disaster since I added more dirt, I get it. I dug kind of under the fence to see what happens. Maybe her yard is a few inches higher so it doesn't do anything right now, but I can see if I cut up the fence it would allow that gap. I tried to get some photos to show grading but I'm sure its hard to imagine without being here in person.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

@flynavy812 I hear what you're saying on the pups. Give them a few inches of daylight, plus ground to dig below, then they'll escape for sure.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

How about a deep rock bed all along the fenceline, with the bottom sloped away from these areas? Kinda like an above ground french drain.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@JRS 9572 This is the first time I've had dogs on ALL THREE SIDES, its an absolute shit show. The fence is already crap quality and old so my boston terrier pushes the damn planks out.. insane.

@LawnRat I like this idea a lot and I've given it thought before. I wish there was a way to 3D map the land right now and just see the curves and what should be happening, I'm having a hard time visualizing what will fix it.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Whew lord this is killin me. I stuck my shovel under the fence and sort of pried it up, it lifted the fence a tiny bit but the water didn't really move. I think my neighbors soil is higher than mine so there is no where for the water to go regardless of the fence. If there was no fence at all, I think this area would still be flooded. Maybe over the years my yard has sunk and created its own issue while hers hasn't? Who the hell knows.

I'm definitely on the research train for drainage now, its just a matter of having a solid plan in place. I like the idea of digging a big *** hole and throwing a 55 gallon drum in there with some stone.


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## Dirtdenali05 (Jun 12, 2019)

Just a thought but have you had them come out and mark the ground for buried power lines? With the way that power box is sitting looks as the ground has settled in that direction.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@Dirtdenali05

I have not but plan to before digging at all. Are you saying this as a caution before any work or that it might indicate something?


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Look up Hydrostatic Pressure damage to foundations. I'd suggest doing something sooner rather than later and ending up with a big bill from foundation damage.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ThomasPI This is exactly what I want to avoid. Piers are real common here and I don't want to deal with that in my short time here.

Update on the front, I'm seeing similar things happen that happened out back. There was a clear patch of super healthy turf that seems to have an edge to it. I'm hoping it continues to spread. I took our crappy tree out and threw some random *** sod there, you can see in the photo. It's sending runners so I'm gonna leave it.

Along the curb is interesting, the half towards the street seems super healthy although it has a ton of dark green clumping fescue mixed in. Will Bermuda really choke it out?

Before photos are May 15, others are today. All I've done is add a little dirt with compost to start leveling, removed tree, and put a few apps of milo down.


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## Dirtdenali05 (Jun 12, 2019)

Just curious if the yard was graded properly and then the power company placed the transformer and buried cable which has caused the ground to settle over time. From the looks of the transformer and the fence, just looks like to me that the ground has settled a lot in that area.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@Dirtdenali05 I can definitely see that. Power company came out last week by the way per my request, said it's fine and to not worry about the box... eh ok.

So I'm coming to terms accepting that this area just happened to settle and I have to deal with it.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@flynavy812

I'm new to the forum but seeing your situation makes me feel for you and I thought I'd chime in, using my homebuilding experience. Theres a lot of info you've got in this thread so I'll respond as I remember them. First things first, water is a BEAST that you can't tame, don't even try. All you can do is move it along by creating a path of least resistance. Have this mentality when looking for solutions. As for percolation (water finding its way back into the ground) it seems like your soil profile, being clay, is completely outmatched by the quantity of water resting on top of it. The noises you mentioned when digging in the dirt is telling you that the ground is completely saturated. It needs TIME in order for it to filter its way through. That's what gravel does, btw (whether above ground or below ground in the form of a french drain) It creates a holding area for the water to stay (again, by being a path of least resistance) until it percolates through the soil.

That being said, your yard seems to be the path of least resistance for water flowing - most likely from your neighbors yard. For the water to pool up against the fence line there's no other explanation but that there's an uphill battle for it on the other side and it's just going to hang out in your yard vs going uphill. IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR YARD IS THE LOW SPOT. No other way around it. Sure the fence isn't helping, being that it's so low into the ground (we build them a little off the ground btw because wood and dirt don't play well, esp wet dirt) but if the neighbors yard was lower than yours it would find a way to get there. It always does. The fence line does seem to imply that there was settling there.. and to be completely honest if there was settling on your side there was settling on the other side as well. Most likely the neighbor has added/leveled their yard which now leaves you as the last one standing.

What can you do? Well, grading your yard is the only option. I would start by finding the highest point (peek over the fences to see what's going on over there too, neighbors cannot force water onto your lot) Use a masonry line and level and see if you an find the high spot in your yard.. and visually create a 3d image as you pan over the yard. You'll see the low spots. If your soil was sandy these low spots would forgive you, but in clay there's no forgiveness. You either dig deep and create a water holding area so that the water gets below the grass line while it percolates (and hold out hope it's big enough to hold all of the water, as you'll be eyeballing the solution), or you add dirt on top of your grade to create a way for the water to flow out & away from the yard. And if the pitch doesn't exist to grade the TOP of the dirt to allow for drainage, you'll have to go BELOW the dirt (french drain) to create that pitch.

Ultimately your solution depends on your surrounding area/lots. You need to see the big picture first before determining mode of action. Easy fix is to raise your yard higher than your neighbors (or at least level with) so that the water doesn't pool (only) in your yard. The correct fix would be to raise whatever areas need raising along the center of the yard, and create a slope down and away, ideally along the perimeter, which can then be graded to a stormwater collection system like the curb, etc.

Btw, most municipalities have a Geographic Info System where they record the topography of the land and it gives you a great birds eye view of the slope of your lot, at least as recorded by the developer. Google your county + GIS, see what pops up. I use this info all the time in order to visualize where to start, etc.

Sorry for the super long post!


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@corneliani Your long post is much appreciated, seriously. I'll try to outline more questions in a coherent way, no guarantees.

1. So what you're saying is, just because there aren't obvious gaps in the fence or anything, my neighbors water could still be making its way too my lawn? It has to make sense since her lawn is never flooded!

2. I added 1YD of dirt recently, it was kind of a last ditch see what happens effort. It rained the next day and just flooded and stayed muddy for 3-4 days, felt like a complete waste of time and money.

3. You're right, if I had some clear easy to see visual of how the lawn is (like they do with the oceans) it would make this so much easier.

4. Honestly, I'm pretty pissed if its from her yard but at the same time can't really blame her. She barely mows and takes care of it so I doubt she had any work done to fix any problems she may have.

5. Its obviously hard to explain from photos and not being here, but my patio is graded away from the house and I understand that. The middle of the yard has a shallow U shape to it, and appears to pull water right to left. One thing interesting to note, is there DOES appear to be a point where the water doesn't flow left to right. To try and explain, my yard floods by the fence and creates a "pond" and then there is 1-2 feet of grass/soil that stays damp but isn't "flooded" and if you go another foot or so, this is where water appears to make its way towards the other fence. I dropped some creamer after a heavy downpour to kind of see where water wants to move.

6. I'm all about trying to grade first, so did I just not go about it properly when I dumped a yard of dirt there? Clearly I just did what I think is best and shot from the hip.

Lastly, I'm attaching a bunch of photos that may already be angles you've seen but if it provides any insight I appreciate any further help you can provide.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

it looks like the water flows to the middle of the yard, and is supposed to drain away from that back fence towards the camera, if that makes sense. So from the house to the middle of the yard, and from the other side of the yard where the transformer or whatever is, to the middle. But then it should drain in a little river towards the camera and whatever is that direction.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

I'll try to make this brief. My next door neighbor watered her flowers every day regardless of rainfall. Not much of a gap between our homes for sunshine to bake the moisture out of there. Our houses are on crawl spaces. Over time I ended up with puddled water in the crawl space. The builder put in drainage up under house since it was when we were about to close.

Neighbors sold. New neighbors have a brain. The crawl space of my house is the Sahara desert. My point is that water moves underground as well as above. Looking at the pic you took from on top of the fence that showed your neighbors yard I think you have some of the same issues. Yes the fence can hold the water up, but that doesn't mean water isn't traveling sub-surface.

I'm thinking some sort of french drain, with catch basins, and probably a sump pump that pushes through a pipe ending up with a dump at the street curb line might be the best fix for this. It's a ton of work, and not cheap.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

flynavy812 said:


> @corneliani Your long post is much appreciated, seriously. I'll try to outline more questions in a coherent way, no guarantees.
> 
> 1. So what you're saying is, just because there aren't obvious gaps in the fence or anything, my neighbors water could still be making its way too my lawn? It has to make sense since her lawn is never flooded!
> * - 100% correct. Unless & until there's another path for it to take it'll persist and permeate that wooden fence, as well as find every crevice available, until it finds a resting place (as in your low spots)  *
> ...


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

The neighbor's land looks much higher, but it is hard to tell with all that swampgrass. How would they even know if they had a problem? Looks like they haven't mowed by the fence in years. I think you are getting their runoff plus your own. 1 yard of dirt won't make a dent in that problem, you'd probably need 20 yards and a major yard redo.

For a temp solution (you're moving in 4 years), I'd still go with the simple catch basin (5 gal bucket with holes, wrapped in fabric, buried at the lowest point would work) with a cheap sump pump inside connected to a simple garden hose that you can remove when not needed. Or an above ground french drain (deep rock garden) along fence. That would be simpler but more work, and may not work at all depending on the volume of water and if it can be sloped to move water somewhere it won't cause other problems.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@JRS 9572 Appreciate it, sent you a PM.

@LawnRat They mow the lawn every couple weeks, but yeah its a disaster. I've seen it when cut low and a heavy rain and don't see any pooling water at all. I really like the idea of throwing some barrels in a hole with some rock/fabric. I'm wondering what the downside of this is vs an actual pipe to the street.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Alright so I'm starting to gather a plan, any input appreciated. Lowes has the perforated 4inch pipe with fabric already on, on sale for 80.00 per 100 feet. I'm thinking a straight shot from low area, down the side yard, to the sidewalk. The only thing I'm not understanding is the need for a catch basin. If the pipe is perforated, won't the water naturally seep in to begin with? Or is the basin simply for when it really rains hard?

Rough plan is to get utilities marked, rent a trencher and trench the straight line. Line with some sort of rock, lay pipe, more rock, soil... pray that grass grows.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Yes, that catch basin is typically to capture the above-ground water. The perforated pipe is to capture and direct below-ground water. So in areas where water pools up and you want to dessicate it then consider installing a catchbasin. Be mindful that it'll have a grate on top though so it requires some maintenance keeping it clean.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@corneliani So if I don't use a catch basin, and only use the pipe... the water will eventually make its way to my system but at a slow rate because the ground still doesn't drain due to the soil?


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

If the pipe is shallow enough, and you use plenty of rock surrounding it, you can probably get by without the catch basin. As long as the soil on top of the rock is kept to about 6-8" or less and is not clay it should be ok.

Even though the pipe comes pre-wrapped I'd still lay the white fabric in the trench before putting the rock in, and after you put rock on top of the pipe. It's cheap enough and will keep the rock and dirt from mixing.

That pre-wrapped stuff can also be used without rock, but if you're gonna do it right ya may as well do it right right. Just be aware it's going to take a lot of rock.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat Ok makes sense. So if the pipe is already perforated, is the only real reason to run on a grade to allow heavy heavy water flows to make its way away? Otherwise, adding 50-60FT of this pipe seems like it would solve my issue, even if water stays in the pipe and slowly drains. Now its back to the idea of digging and dropping a barrel in. I'm just having a hard time understanding why exactly it needs routing to the sidewalk in that case.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

flynavy812 said:


> @LawnRat Ok makes sense. So if the pipe is already perforated, is the only real reason to run on a grade to allow heavy heavy water flows to make its way away? Otherwise, adding 50-60FT of this pipe seems like it would solve my issue, even if water stays in the pipe and slowly drains. Now its back to the idea of digging and dropping a barrel in. I'm just having a hard time understanding why exactly it needs routing to the sidewalk in that case.


Because you are trying to get rid of thousands of gallons of water and a 55 gallon barrel only holds 55 gallons and a 60' piece of 4" pipe only holds about 40 gallons. So that water needs to be spread out to dryer areas where it can percolate into the soil, or empty to the street. If you can get the end of the pipe low enough below the problem area you may want to look into a pop-up emitter for the end of the pipe so excess water can just flow out.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@LawnRat is right on. There's only so much capacity... and since your clay soil percolates slowly you don't want to go through all that work and still have soggy ground.. so create an exit path if your grade allows.

Have you checked out these guys? https://www.ndspro.com/home-drainage


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@flynavy812 - when we do this in areas that require stormwater management as part of a project we usually bring in an engineer to calculate the amount of water that can be expected to be pooled (from impervious surfaces such as concrete as well as roof/gutters) and we have to build an underground "dry well" that will hold that water for the amount of time necessary for the soil, based on soil geology, is expected to percolate. That's the pro way. You can simulate the same thing by either building a trench with a pipe (as you suggested) and / or additional dry-wells in areas where water adds up. Either way it's quite a task. Before you commit to it I highly recommend getting 2-3 estimates from landscapers. At the least you'll get information & recommendations just from going through the process. If you choose to then do it yourself at least you know what a pro would do.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

Also, if it takes a couple days for the surface water you see to dry it probably takes weeks for the groundwater 2' down to "dry" out. The 55 gallon drum flows both ways, so It will be half+ full of water for weeks after a heavy rain. So if it rains again it only has ~25 gallons of capacity left. Not to mention the mosquitos getting through the storm grate and laying eggs. This is why I've been suggesting a sump pump in a smaller basin for a temp solution...but your new plan is definitely the more correct way. Just much more money and labor.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat Thanks for making sense of it. I guess the problem is I see the water that is pooled and it doesn't look like that much water. Looks like 40 gallons or so, but then again I am naive and had a hard time visualizing it all. I do have a foundation company coming out tomorrow for a quote. They specialize in grading/drains/etc so another opinion would be great. I'll compare my DIY materials to their out the door cost and make a decision, because if its not too big of a spread then screw it I'll let someone else do it.

@corneliani Thanks for clarifying, part of it is me over complicating it like I tend to so I'm trying to keep it simple.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

Ok just had a quote done on french drains, very reputable foundation company with hundreds of reviews. He basically said he normally charges 25/ft installed but for military he does 15/ft. It would be roughly 85FT starting in the pooling area, all the way to the street. This would include catch basin at start, gutter to side yard, down the side yard, and finally gutter on corner of front yard. Under the sidewalk and all. He uses a variant of the EZdrain by NDS that is prefab perforated with fabric wrap or whatever.

Would be 1275 all in with 10 year warranty. Only other quote I had was around 2300 for less catch basins but similar design. Thoughts?

He did give me another option based on what I said about rear neighbor and how water drains. Just run pipe towards back corner of yard with a pop up drain, would be about half the cost. But I have no way of proving this would be a solution, and side yard would still hold water.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat @corneliani I welcome your opinion. Its important to note I did a very rough material quote on Lowes for the DIY route. 4 catch basins, around 8 of the EZdrains, and renting a trencher puts me at around 800-900. That's not even factoring in couplings and getting it under the sidewalk. I know I could go cheaper by not using the EZdrains but for the purpose of comparing and factoring in my time..


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

That sounds like a great price for all that work. Sure, you could do it for less yourself, but not enough less to go through all the trouble. And you won't need a chiropractor .


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat Seriously, apart from the hard labor I would need to do a good job and make it all look nice and pretty. I tend to lose patience so it would probably end up looking like crap.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

@flynavy812 being in a business that puts a crew on the road and to my customer....that sounds like a fair price. And $400.00 tops is not worth throwing your back out or injuring yourself because you went DIY.

It would be tough for you to "fall" the drain line right so that it drains to the front of the street.

I assume he's putting rock in the trench as well?

Good thing you checked his references/reviews. A 10 year warranty is only good if he's still in business 5 to 9 years from now.

And if you want to see a DIY job done right. Take 15 minutes and watch this. This guy is a beast. He did an awesome job.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@flynavy812 - I'm usually pro-diy but this is one I say you sub out. The markup at Lowes on the materials plus the trencher rental (not to mention the time it'll take for you to be proficient with it) eats up a lot of the potential savings of doing it yourself. The only reason to do it is if you were abnormally specific about doing things a certain way (i fit that category btw .. design and physically get involved in building my own houses) but it's fun and i learn a lot along the way. For you, you want a solution. Which brings me to the warranty.. make sure it specifies what's warranted. You don't care to have the pipe warranted from breakage or any such limiting verbiage.. make sure they warranty the SOLUTION, ie the fact that water will be diverted successfully to the street. Don't bust their chops if they're doing you a favor, but at the same time don't settle for a cheaper job that doesn't resolve the issue. Deal with this problem now and fix it once and for all, even if it costs a little more than you'd want it to.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@corneliani I asked about the gravel and warranty, it's a gravel-less since it's those ez-drain style pieces. Warranty covers material and labor and it's ability to move water as discussed. Is not having gravel a concern if they still warranty it? The Ez drains are 60.00 each at Lowe's and I would need 9 so that's 540, 210~ for catch basins, 100 for equipment rental, I'll just assume another 50-100 for various material to tie in gutters. Assuming I do it right that puts me at 850-950 ish. I could also go cheap and try DIY with gravel and just pipe and catch basins and probably get away under 500. Trying to decide the right decision here.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

The EZ drains are only $45 each at Home Depot, so $405...$365 with the military discount .

If it were me, and I decided to DIY, I'd probably try and get by without all the catch basins, but use a couple yards of sand to backfill on top of the EZ drain pipes. Water should flow right through the sand. It would be cheaper and easier than leveling the catch basins, and having to trim around them forever. Water jet under the sidewalk and put a pop-up emitter by the street and call it a day. But this is all just a guess.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat But then I'd have to go into a Home Depot...

I see what you're saying. I have hard time deciding at what point do you say screw it take my money and make it happen. I could easily by their corrugated 100ft pipe which is way cheaper and do the fabric/stone route as well. My neighbor actually went even easier and put the pop up emitter where the sidewalk starts and doesn't seem to have any excess water issues. I've already spent 500.00 on gutters for the back, just spent 2800.00 on a storm shelter, probably 300.00 on misc lawn crap... I hate that I'm dumping so much into this house but the next owners are going to be well setup.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

The ez-drain works ok, most contractors use those bc it's quicker. If you're piping it out and the slope is sufficient then it works fine. If you don't have the reqd slope then a more traditional French drain ( gravel in a trench idea) gives you the added capacity to collect that water. If they warranty that their solution solves the problem and you feel good w that then I'd trust their judgement. This type of work is very site specific. You're on the right path though.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@corneliani I know I could nitpick the crap out of this project and that would leave me never happy with a solution. So I'm trying to put trust in a company with hundreds of happy customers. I've had a few people out for quotes for various other things and think I get a good reading on people, you can tell the ones that are weird and pushy. The owner came out for my quote and he seems like a stand up guy who wants to do the right thing so I'm weighing my options. I'ts even tougher to pull the trigger now that the rain has ended for the most part. If this was 4 weeks ago I would be begging him to come out and do it ASAP.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

$400 for EZD + a yard or two of sand VS. $75 for 100' of regular perf pipe + $100-$150 for 2 or 3 yards of gravel + $40 for 200' of fabric + 2 yards of sand.

One is easier to install with less digging, the other would probably work better and is cheaper. In this heat I'd probably go the easier route. In the cooler season I'd probably do the gravel. The EZ drain seems like it would be much less digging.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat Lowes also has the 100' of pipe pre wrapped in fabric on sale for 80.00. So it could look like this...?

Get trench dug and line with fabric.
Catch basin at low spot where biggest issue is, start running down side yard. Tie in gutter / add catch basin to side yard where water pools really bad. I personally don't think I need to tie in the front gutter, I'm not having any issues there. I could use the pop up emitter at beginning of sidewalk as a first step. If this creates an issue I can always go under the sidewalk at a later date.

Pipe would be 80.00, catch basins are 50.00, tool rental is 100.00, fabric ~30.00.

I would also buy enough gravel in one load to fill that side yard for aesthetics, I think my local place is around 50.00/yd so I would order an excess if anything, delivered. Call it 4yds to be safe? I could do better math if I go this route, call that 240.00 delivered.

This puts me at a real rough estimate of 550.00, more than half what I would pay for them to come out. And I understand they are really providing the labor at this point if they are using the EZ drain type material, because its all plug and play. I like the idea that they have experience and will tie the gutters in though.

And since they quote it by the foot, I'm not sure I could cut costs by asking for less catch basins or taking out the front gutter tie.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

Like I said, for that price I'd let them hurt _their_ backs!

I


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@LawnRat Fair enough, my wife always gets on me about what I value my time at. How much is your time worth per hour? Its a hard question to answer, I've had some free time lately between flights but it will soon be swept away with our first child and deployments, so I guess its a valid argument.


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## Alan (Apr 23, 2017)

I can't offer any help as these guys have, but I've been following your thread.

One thing that would suck big time is if you did it yourself and failed to remedy the ponding water situation. I don't want to come off as pessimistic, but I just think it's something to consider.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

You guys did have an unusual amount of rain this spring haven't you. We did as well and it revealed issues with some of my drainage I never would've seen in normal conditions. 
If the worst of it is over then it's no longer such an emergency ... but it will eventually. And the sooner you do the sooner your lawn gets to fill in.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@Alan Not at all man, I get it. I've had projects where I rush or accept something not quite right and I hate myself for it. I always say I'll take my time and do it right but sometimes I get excited and it doesn't go according to plan. In this case, I feel I am fully capable of the work but would never quite be satisfied.

@corneliani We moved here in December so I had no idea what I was in for, and had no idea my yard had any issues whatsoever. I've learned so many lessons for the next time around we buy a house. And yes, everyone keeps saying not to judge based on this record season. With that being said, I still want to fix the issue so I might as well get it over with now. Will be one less thing to worry about and I can go back to staring at my lawn and praying it fixes itself.


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## Todd1970 (May 7, 2019)

I moved into a newly built neighborhood once and the lot behind mine had one of those transformer boxes on it so it was the last lot to sale. My home and its neighbors were established for a year before they built a house there. With us and the neighbors watering along with rain storms it washed that lot out and ruined the original grading. When they finally built there it was a low spot and they had the same problems you do. He built up the middle of the yard, put flower beds along the fence with a rock filled channel to rout the water to the sides and french drains to move it out.

The place I have now had a side looking like yours with standing water. Me and a buddy dug 105 foot trench in clay soil and put in a french drain in a weekend. Not too hard of work but well worth it. I have to water that side now for my grass.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

I won't make any new threads, I really appreciate all the advice and ideas so far. My next project this weekend is this little spot. I'm thinking a simple paver type layout, or soil-cement the area and make a smooth hard surface. What would you do if this was your space?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Just want to chime in that I think spending the money to have a professional do it, and have a warranty, is the smart move given how expensive foundation issues could be if you continue to have standing water in that area.


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## flynavy812 (May 15, 2019)

@ktgrok My thoughts as well, when we were looking at houses we quickly found that piers are very common here. I don't want to shell out even more money when it comes time to sell to fix something I could have fixed now. With that being said, the renters who were here 3 years probably didn't give a crap and let it all sit obviously but I'm the owner now and can't have that mindset.


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