# Bermuda control options in TTTF



## DocV

I keep seeing posts asking how to control bermudagrass in a turf type tall fescue lawn so I thought I would write a post summarizing the research I have found on this topic. I have a tall fescue lawn and my neighbor has bermudagrass so intrusion over the last 5 years has hit a tipping point. There has been much research at universities that specialize in turfgrass sciences on this topic. The amount of the spread and aggressiveness of the approach dictates your path to control. The best approaches rely on multiple types of herbicides to attack multiple biological systems (see herbicide classes below), because bermudagrass is very resilient and at its peak growing season resistant to even the best selective herbicides. Controlling bermudagrass is a systemic approach of starving it of nutrients through lack of fertilizer and selective herbicide assault. Hopefully you find this useful.

Just for reference, I am in Nashville, TN which is zone 7a in the transition zone so adjust the timing of applications and overseeding according to your area.

Abbreviations used are acre (A), fluid ounce (oz), milliliter (mL), non-ionic surfactant (NIS), methylated seed oil (MSO), crop oil concentrate (COC) and 1000 sq. ft. (M). Small volumes in ounces are best converted to milliliters and measured using a syringe you can get from a pharmacy or buy a box of them on Amazon.

*Glyphosate*

If the Bermudagrass is contained to a few well-defined areas, then the non-selective herbicide glyphosate can be used. Glyphosate or glyphosate + fluazifop are the most economical options. An article in Turfgrass Trends by the University of Arkansas (https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug1a.pdf) outlines the treatment plan.


Apply Roundup Pro (higher concentration glyphosate) at 2 quarts/A (1.5 oz/M) or Roundup Pro + fluazifop at 24 oz/A (0.6 oz/M) to actively growing Bermudagrass.


The important part is 3 applications, 30-60 days apart (as the Bermudagrass greens up). Any fewer applications is not effective. Spraying brown Bermudagrass is useless as it must be actively growing for these herbicides to work so do not apply the next app until the Bermuda is greening up and regrowing.


Wait 2 weeks before seeding.


The following spring spot spray any remaining Bermudagrass.

*Selective Herbicides & Overseeding*
The next 2 options are for larger areas where the Bermudagrass is intermixed with the fescue. Two selective herbicides are available, the less expensive option fluazifop and the more expensive, but more potent and less toxic to fescue option, topramezone. In both instances overseeding (aka. interseeding) significantly aids in successful eradication (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...nd-triclopyr/DEC0FAE8150934D42D6EA6E20173A9E0), see below for more discussion on this.

*Fluazifop/Fenoxaprop*

The University of Tennessee recommends the following regimen for controlling Bermudagrass in fescue using fluazifop (https://extension.tennessee.edu/Sul...an%2FDocuments%2FAg%20Documents&CurrentPage=1):


Apply Fusilade II at 6 oz/A (0.14 oz/M) + triclopyr at 32 oz/A (0.73 oz/M) + NIS starting when the Bermudagrass is green and actively growing (mid-May). Do not apply fluazifop when the fescue is under stress (i.e. heat, drought).


Apply every 28 days until August 15th


Wait 15 days before overseeding or 30 days if bare soil, then overseed.


Fertilize at 1 lb. N/M in September 15, November 1 and March 1 to support fescue growth. Do not fertilize after April 1 and before September 1 in order to stress the Bermudagrass. This aids in Bermudagrass suppression because it limits the storage of up nutrients prior to summer and in the fall as it tries to store carbohydrates for winter.

This regimen must be continued for 2-3 years.

See Application Timing below for new data on suggested application timing.

Fenoxaprop can be used as it is less toxic to tall fescue, but it is less effective than Pylex even when combined with overseeding (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...nd-triclopyr/DEC0FAE8150934D42D6EA6E20173A9E0).

*Topramezone*

This herbicide was created to control grassy weeds (i.e. Bermudagrass) in cool season grasses. In correspondence with BASF, their technical team recommends the following application plan:


Mid-August - 1.5 oz/A (0.034 oz or 1.0 mL /M) Pylex + 32 oz/A (0.73 oz or 21.5 mL /M) triclopyr + MSO or COC


Early-Mid September (21 days from previous app) - 1.5 oz/A (0.034 oz or 1.0 mL /M) Pylex + 32 oz/A (0.73 oz or 21.5 mL /M) triclopyr + MSO or COC


Early October (21 days from previous app) - 1.0 oz/A (0.023 oz or 0.7 mL /M) Pylex (no triclopyr) + MSO or COC + overseeding. Seeding can occur immediately. According to the article posted above this is a critical step.

BASF stated you can move the initial application timeline up to mid-July and proceed from there, but see the Application Timing section below for new data on suggested application timing and why it may not a good idea to move the timing up to July. Any time sooner than mid-July and the Bermudagrass has the ability to grow through the Pylex inhibition.

The program should be administered for 2 years, but substantial suppression should occur in the first year.

Since mesotrione is in the same herbicide class as topramezone, what about adding it to the mix? Virginia Tech has an article on using mesotrione and triclopyr to control Bermudagrass (https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2008mar80.pdf). According to this study fenoxaprop + triclopyr is more effective than mesotione + triclopyr. This added to the fact and that topramezone is more effective than mesotrione, it is probably not worth using mesotrione for this purpose as it would cost more than Pylex. Additionally the rates used in this study exceed the annual maximum application rate for mesotrione.

Even though it is expensive, Pylex is more cost effective than mesotrione or fenoxaprop given its effectiveness and amount used per application. If price is an issue, then fluazifop is the next best approach. Just remember that overseeding is a key factor to success when using either selective herbicide.

*Research on Application and Overseeding Timing*
Research in 2013 from the University of Tennessee suggests that applications in mid-late April and early September/October seem to have the most effect in suppression (https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...nd-triclopyr/6117FB8602336EB8FEAF3A84C3392DDB). This study suggests that an application in April when Bermudagrass is first coming out of dormancy impairs its ability to quickly recover in time for its prime growing season and applications in fall, as the temp drops below 72F, inhibit its ability to store energy to survive winter, which really stresses the Bermudagrass. You would just need to be sure to leave enough time in the fall for your overseeding to be established prior to winter.

If you want to geek out you can determine the Growing Degree Days (GDD) for your area like they used in the paper above. GDD is a temperature-based indicator for assessing crop development. It is a calculation used by crop producers that is a measure of heat accumulation used to predict plant and pest development rates such as the date that a crop reaches maturity. Growing degrees (GDs) is defined as the mean daily temperature (average of daily maximum and minimum temperatures) above a certain threshold base temperature accumulated on a daily basis over a period of time. The base threshold temperature is that temperature below which plant growth is zero. For cool season grasses that temperature is 50F or 10C. The Syngenta website (https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home) has a calculator for this (you can look up the equation online if you are interested). You should select 10C as the Base Temperature in order to match that of the paper and the germination temp of cool season grasses. The days that had the most inhibition in that paper were GDD10C of 200 and 2550 with 1775 also being significant.

In the study, GDD10C days fell on 4/22/2009 & 4/28/2010 (200), 8/24/2009 & 8/11/2010 (1775) and 11/5/2009 & 9/9/2010 (2250). Using 2019 data for my area these days roughly fell on 4/21/2019 (200), 8/9/2019 (1775) and 9/24/2019 (2250). For 2020 those dates are 4/11/2020 (200) and the 1775 and 2550 GDD10C have not yet occurred, but my application timing will roughly coincide with these dates.

*My Hybrid Approach*

I chose to use a hybrid of these approaches to maximally stress the Bermudagrass and minimize its spread during to summer. I applied fluazifop + triclopyr in early May (I did get my chemicals in time for a late April application) and June, did/will not fertilize May-August and will apply Pylex in the fall as well as overseed. UPDATE: I applied Pylex+triclpyr on 8/5.

By late June the Bermudagrass (and other grassy weeds) were completely yellow, but came back in early July. This robbed it of an entire month of growth so hopefully that inhibited its spread over that month. I will not know the success of this approach until late fall and spring of next year.

*Herbicide Background*

A quick background on the herbicides follows. A good summary chart can be found here (https://weedscience.missouri.edu/publications/2017_Updated_ClassificationPoster.pdf).

_Lipid synthesis inhibitors:_


fluazifop (tradenames: Ornamec Over the Top, Fusilade II)

fenoxaprop (tradename: Acclaim Extra)

_Growth regulators:_


triclopyr (tradenames: Turflon Ester, Triclopyr 4)

As an aside, most 3-way herbicides (2,4-D, MCPA, dicamba) and quinclorac are in this class. Sulfentrazone and carfentrazone are not and are cell membrane disruptors.

_Amino Acid Synthesis Inhibitor:_ glyphosate (tradenames: RoundUp, RoundUp Pro)

_Pigment inhibitors:_


mesotrione (tradenames: Tenacity, Meso 4SC)


topramezone (tradename: Pylex)


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## Mtsdream

Great post Docv, just in time for another app


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## g-man

@DocV I split your post into a new thread so folks could find it. Great info.


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## 440mag

Thank you docv, :thumbup: as luck would have me finding your post right now, I have 4oz of Pylex and a jug o' MSO on its way to me (already have the Triclopyr on hand) and

Thank you also g-man - has you not taken your action as moderator I'd likely never have found this valuable post and information! :thumbup:


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## Nickfundy

Thank you DocV! This thread is exactly what I was looking for today. I'm going with the fluazifop approach sense I already have Ornamec and Pylex would eat up my seed budget. I'm also in TN, between Memphis and Nashville. When is the latest you would overseed? I may only have time to do two applications before seeding Sep 15th, unless I can wait a seed later.


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## Utk03analyst

Many Thanks, @DocV I'm a little south in Murfreesboro and I have TTTF and my neighbor has Bermuda, it's my second year in the home (New construction) and it's already starting to creep over. I should have made a better lot choice. Well timed post as I plan to fight back this fall and spring.


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## DocV

@Nickfundy, cool-season grass seed germinates best when soil temperatures are between 50°F and 65°F. This roughly corresponds to daytime air temperatures in the 60°F to 75°F range. The soil temps in middle TN are on average are above 60F until the 3rd week in October so I would not seed/overseed later than mid-October.

Checking the label for fluazifop and triclopyr, you cannot seed for 14 days after fluazifop application and 21 days for triclopyr. This means you could probably apply your last application of fluazifop as late as the last week in Aug or the first week in Sept and still overseed by early Oct. You could even apply only fluazifop for your last application and cut a week off your waiting time. Remember to get good seed to soil contact by using a roller or top dressing. I plan to have my landscaping service use a roller.


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## Bigfeather1

DocV, I see you joined Mar 1. You are helping more people than you realize with your excellent posts . Bless your heart!


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## 1028mountain

DocV said:


> Checking the label for fluazifop and triclopyr, you cannot seed for 14 days after fluazifop application and 21 days for triclopyr. This means you could probably apply your last application of fluazifop as late as the last week in Aug or the first week in Sept and still overseed by early Oct. You could even apply only fluazifop for your last application and cut a week off your waiting time. Remember to get good seed to soil contact by using a roller or top dressing. I plan to have my landscaping service use a roller.


This is the spot I am in, I have some Bermuda that I have been painting with glyphosate but also have fusilade + ester but want to reseed ASAP. Maybe just easier to glyphoste the Bermuda and then just reseed those areas vs trying to rely on fusilade + esther and having to wait 3 weeks.


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## DocV

The University of Alabama found that at least 3 applications of RoundUp Pro are needed to kill Bermuda and control is greatly enhanced by adding fluazifop (see my post above for link), but that would require a 2 week wait time for reseed. Personally you have some time so you could treat with fluazifop + triclopyr then 21 days later repeat and 21 days later use spot treatments of RoundUp + fluazifop wait 2 weeks and overseed.


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## 1028mountain

So seed 8 weeks from today in the transition zone?


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## DocV

The latest I would seed in TN would be the first week in October, but if you wanted to be careful mid-September. Historically soil temps do not drop below 50F until the first week in November. You can find soil temps here: https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature. Just search for temps for last year. TTTF will germinate from 50-65F (air temp 60-75F).


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## LawnScrub

Can I still apply tenacity at seed down with pylex?


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## edixon88

Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.

I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.

I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?

Thanks!


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## 1028mountain

DocV said:


> The latest I would seed in TN would be the first week in October, but if you wanted to be careful mid-September. Historically soil temps do not drop below 50F until the first week in November. You can find soil temps here: https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature. Just search for temps for last year. TTTF will germinate from 50-65F (air temp 60-75F).


I am just east of you in MD and I did end up reseeding late into fall (after full reno first week of August) last year and had good results. Just don't know that I want to wait that long. I just had irrigation installed and have some areas that I could reseed earlier than the spots that have Bermuda which is maybe 5% of my lawn. What to do, what to do...


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## DocV

That is a good question so I compared the labels of Pylex, triclopyr and mesotrione. The weeds/grasses covered by Pylex (34/50) and triclopyr (1/50) is 35 of the 50 types addressed with mesotrione which is not surprising since mesotrione and topramezone (Pylex) are in the same herbicide class that being HPPD inhibitors. You can combine Pylex and mesotrione or probably better just save your mesotrione and add a 3-way herbicide to the Pylex + triclopyr mix which is allowable per the Pylex label.

I highly recommend everyone read the label for their products because there is a plethora of useful information in them.


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## DocV

edixon88 said:


> Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.
> 
> I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.
> 
> I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?
> 
> Thanks!


Personally I would not scarify for fear of spreading the Bermuda. Bermuda is the Terminator of grasses (hard to stop) and it is the combination of multiple herbicides, overseeding and winter temps that will limit its potential for spread and regrowth. Instead you can make sure to use a roller to get good seed to soil contact. This is what I am doing.

Do you really need to dethatch? Some thatch to 0.25 inch of thatch is good to have because it promotes good microbe growth in the soil. You should only dethatch if it is indicated.

FYI, I applied Pylex/triclopyr at the 1mL/M rate to my lawn yesterday so the experiment begins. It is important to apply every 21 days because you want to make sure the Bermuda takes a hit just as it trys to recover.


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## edixon88

DocV said:


> edixon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey @DocV, thank you for all of your valuable insight into Bermuda control options! I'm going to be doing a TTTF overseed in mid-September and have a question.
> 
> I did my first application of Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO on 8/1 and will continue with the two follow up apps(minus Triclopyr on the last) on the sections of my yard that have Bermuda, but I am also going to be dethatching with my sun joe and most likely the scarify attachment prior to the overseed.
> 
> I understand that cutting the rhizomes can cause Bermuda to spread even more, but would I be safe doing this after the chemicals apps? Or should I just avoid dethatching those areas even though there is a good amount of thatch built up?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Personally I would not scarify for fear of spreading the Bermuda. Bermuda is the Terminator of grasses (hard to stop) and it is the combination of multiple herbicides, overseeding and winter temps that will limit its potential for spread and regrowth. Instead you can make sure to use a roller to get good seed to soil contact. This is what I am doing.
> 
> Do you really need to dethatch? Some thatch to 0.25 inch of thatch is good to have because it promotes good microbe growth in the soil. You should only dethatch if it is indicated.
> 
> FYI, I applied Pylex/triclopyr at the 1mL/M rate to my lawn yesterday so the experiment begins. It is important to apply every 21 days because you want to make sure the Bermuda takes a hit just as it trys to recover.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I definitely need to dethatch as much of the yard as I can. We bought the house two summers ago and this is the first time I've had a chance to do anything other than mow. From the looks of it, the lawn hasn't been taken care of in 10+ years so along with the Bermuda, there's plenty of thatch, and other weeds(which herbicides have been working well on so far).

Also, is there anything I should apply to the Bermuda areas when spring comes around? I know it doesn't start to pop up until temps rise but would love to suppress it as early as I can if possible.


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## DocV

You cannot suppress it until it starts to come out of dormancy. I am experimenting with fluazifop + triclopyr in the spring just as it greens up and then Pylex + triclopyr in the fall. See my post above for recommendations on timing of the applications. If you really want to get exact you can use this website (https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home) to calculate the GDD10C for your area and apply near those times.


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## edixon88

Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?

I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.

The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?


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## DocV

I don't have experience combining the Pylex and Tenacity but they are the same herbicide class so applying both is a bit of overkill. However Pylex has no pre-emergent activity like Tenacity. Pylex kills roughly 34 of the 50 weeds Tenacity kills so there is significant overlap. I too am using Pylex and plan to overseed so I am going to apply Tenacity 1 week before the final Pylex app and that Tenacity application should just be losing its efficacy when it is time to reapply the Tenacity. I could not find any good research on their combined use but Tenacity and Pylex do not seem to induce much stress on fescue unlike fluazifop.


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## Suny12

Doc,

Great info here and thanks for this. I live an hour east of Nashville and am planning on trying to burn down a 10k sq ft patch of bermuda mixed with my TTTF. I just ordered the Pylex, but have some questions about the triclopyr and MSO application rate and product. I plan to spray from a pump backpack, and usually spray about 5k sq ft with about 3 gallons of water plus product.

For triclopyr, you are using triclopyr with 4lb active ingredient per gallon? Something like this: https://www.domyown.com/alligare-triclopyr-p-20562.html.

The MSO application is what I am a little more confused about. I bought this: https://www.domyown.com/prime-source-duo-stick-p-12239.html. When you add your MSO, what rate are you adding it at? Are you just sticking to the label recommendation? Low or high side of recommended rate? When I look at this: https://www.betterturf.basf.us/content/dam/cxm/agriculture/better-turf/united-states/english/products/pylex-herbicide/pylex-herbicide-sell-sheet.pdf it recommends a rate of MSO of 0.50%. No clue what the means. Can you provide a little more detail on your application rate for MSO? Thank you!


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## DocV

@Suny12 As you know water is just a carrier for the herbicide so overall volume/1000 sqft is not that important so long as it is enough to get even, good coverage. I spray 113 fl.oz./1000 sqft but recently purchased new Teejet tips that allow me to spray 1 gallon/1000 sqft just to make it easier to use the gallon marks on the sprayer. I assume you have calibrated your sprayer.

The triclopyr I purchased is just that product, Alligare Triclopyr 4, but the gallon size from another site.

I follow the rate of MSO on the Pylex label at 0.75% volume to volume. The label calls for 0.5-1.0% volume to volume. Volume to volume (v/v) means a percent of the total volume in volume of product. As such for 128 oz, I add 1.0 mL Pylex, 22 mL triclopyr, 1 oz MSO and 7 mL marking dye to 64 oz water, mix and bring the total volume to 128 oz.

I bought 10 mL and 30 mL syringes at Amazon.


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## DocV

edixon88 said:


> Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?
> 
> I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.
> 
> The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?


Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.


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## edixon88

DocV said:


> edixon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?
> 
> I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.
> 
> The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
Click to expand...

Thanks for going above and beyond! You're providing a ton of value to a lot of people with your posts!


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## Deadpair

@DocV how do you read the Pylex label with respect to overseeding following Pylex application? Can you reseed immediately after application and anytime thereafter? I read it to mean don't spray for 28 days after seeding but not the opposite.

One more question - what do you do with the dead Bermuda? I cannot help but wanted to pull it. Will you do anything to remove it before you overseed or just let it die and decompose?


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## ergray3

Has anyone tested Pylex in the spring, near GDD 200 instead of fluazifop? I just finished my second spray of my first round Pylex/Triclopyr in Chattanooga TN, good results so far. Curious if I should spray a spring round to improve the first year outcome?


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## g-man

I don't have experience with Bermuda, but I would think you want to hit it in spring after green up. Let it waste energy in the green up and then hit it with pylex.


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## ergray3

g-man said:


> I don't have experience with Bermuda, but I would think you want to hit it in spring after green up. Let it waste energy in the green up and then hit it with pylex.


Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Negative pressure on it at both ends of the growing season may provide better results, and if you use the 1oz/A rate the label allows for 4 apps/year. Great thread!


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## DocV

Deadpair said:


> @DocV how do you read the Pylex label with respect to overseeding following Pylex application? Can you reseed immediately after application and anytime thereafter? I read it to mean don't spray for 28 days after seeding but not the opposite.
> 
> One more question - what do you do with the dead Bermuda? I cannot help but wanted to pull it. Will you do anything to remove it before you overseed or just let it die and decompose?


Sorry got busy with life and work. You can seed and immediately spray but after that you need to wait 28 days before reapplying Pylex. You can spray anytime before seeding including the day you seed.

Leave the dead Bermudagrass to degrade as it adds to the organic matter of the soil which in my mind is another kick in the *** to the Bermudagrass.


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## DocV

ergray3 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have experience with Bermuda, but I would think you want to hit it in spring after green up. Let it waste energy in the green up and then hit it with pylex.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Negative pressure on it at both ends of the growing season may provide better results, and if you use the 1oz/A rate the label allows for 4 apps/year. Great thread!
Click to expand...

Yes, negative pressure early in the season seems to help contain the Bermudagrass so it wastes energy trying to overcome the herbicide insult rather than spreading. In my post Controlling Bermudgrass in TTTF there is a link to a paper by Brosnan that demonstrates that GDD10C 200, 1775 and 2250 seem to have the most effect. These roughly coincide with the Bermuda coming out of dormancy, its peak growth and most likely its transition to preparing for dormancy. When I look at the corresponding soil temps for the GDD10C dates they roughly correspond to these phases of Bermuda growth. Here are the 5 year average soil temp for each GDD10C for 2019 in my area: 200 = 58.4F, 1775 = 80.4F and 2250 = 76.4F. You can use the Syngenta soil temp (https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature) and GDD10C calculator (https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home) to determine these dates in your area.

As to using the 1.0oz/A rate, this is not recommended by the BASF rep because during peak growth Bermudagrass is growing so fast that the herbicide damage is minimized and the Bermudagrass will survive. Additionally I would not want the Bermudgrass to adapt a resistance mechanism which can occur in biological systems when an organism is exposed to a lower than efficacious levels of a toxin (think antibiotic resistance). The lower 1.0oz/A rate is only used at the end of the Bermudagrass growing season because it is winding down its top growth and focusing on root/stolon storage of nutrients.


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## DocV

ergray3 said:


> Has anyone tested Pylex in the spring, near GDD 200 instead of fluazifop? I just finished my second spray of my first round Pylex/Triclopyr in Chattanooga TN, good results so far. Curious if I should spray a spring round to improve the first year outcome?


I did not find any papers using Pylex near the GDD10C 200 date only fluazifop. I used 2 apps of fluazifop/triclopyr around the GDD10C 200 date this past spring in hopes that it would slow the spread of bermuda through my lawn.


----------



## DocV

DocV said:


> edixon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?
> 
> I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.
> 
> The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
Click to expand...

I did not get a response from the BASF rep but I did see in the mesotrione label that they do not recommend applying another HPPD (group 27 herbicide) at the same time so my guess is that Pylex and Tenacity should not be applied at the same time because the tolerance of TTTF to the chemical is dose dependent and that much HPPD inhibitor is a toxic dose to cool season grasses.

I have changed my plan and will not use mesotrione at overseeding because that is my last Pylex app. I do plan on applying it after the longer of two mowings or 4 weeks after emergence as recommended by the label because Pylex efficacy has been shown to significantly decrease after 28 days. I will say that the amount of weeds and grassy weeds are greatly diminished in my lawn since starting Pylex so I am not so concerned about applying a pre-emergent at seeding time.


----------



## DocV

DocV said:


> DocV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edixon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?
> 
> I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.
> 
> The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not get a response from the BASF rep but I did see in the mesotrione label that they do not recommend applying another HPPD (group 27 herbicide) at the same time so my guess is that Pylex and Tenacity should not be applied at the concurrently because the tolerance of TTTF to the chemical is dose dependent and that much HPPD inhibitor is a toxic dose to cool season grasses.
> 
> I have changed my plan and will not use mesotrione at overseeding because that is my last Pylex app. I do plan on applying it after the longer of two mowings or 4 weeks after emergence as recommended by the label because Pylex efficacy has been shown to significantly decrease after 28 days. I will say that the amount of weeds and grassy weeds are greatly diminished in my lawn since starting Pylex so I am not so concerned about applying a pre-emergent at seeding time.
Click to expand...


----------



## Deadpair

Thanks @DocV

Before I heard back I did run the SunJoe through a small area. My thinking was that I was creating more room for the Pylex to do its work. Second app is due this weekend but with the hurricane remnants (I am to your East about 3 hours) looks like I won't hit 21 days.


----------



## edixon88

DocV said:


> DocV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edixon88 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey @DocV, another question for you. I understand that most of your knowledge on this is from research (and comprehending everything better than most of us) rather than experience, but what are your thought on combining Pylex/Tenacity at overseed?
> 
> I did my first Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO app on 8/1, browned a good amount of my yard(knew it would going in due to existing heat stress) and I'm finally seeing a little bleaching as of yesterday. I'm planning on a second app around 8/22 with possibly making some minor ratio tweaks. Then around 9/12 doing the final app of just Pylex and overseeding.
> 
> The Bermuda is only in certain sections of my lawn and I will be dethatching and overseeding the rest as normal, but was planning on spraying Tenacity as a pre-emergent. Do you think I'd be safe doing a blanket spray of tenacity over everything in addition to the Pylex on the Bermuda areas or should I try to keep them separate?
> 
> 
> 
> Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did not get a response from the BASF rep but I did see in the mesotrione label that they do not recommend applying another HPPD (group 27 herbicide) at the same time so my guess is that Pylex and Tenacity should not be applied at the same time because the tolerance of TTTF to the chemical is dose dependent and that much HPPD inhibitor is a toxic dose to cool season grasses.
> 
> I have changed my plan and will not use mesotrione at overseeding because that is my last Pylex app. I do plan on applying it after the longer of two mowings or 4 weeks after emergence as recommended by the label because Pylex efficacy has been shown to significantly decrease after 28 days. I will say that the amount of weeds and grassy weeds are greatly diminished in my lawn since starting Pylex so I am not so concerned about applying a pre-emergent at seeding time.
Click to expand...

I'd still be curious to see if anyone has successfully applied both, at half-rates when overseeding as that(in theory) would not be over-applying HPPD. I assume worst case with that would be additional damage to existing turf, but shouldn't impact germination.


----------



## estcstm3

1028mountain said:


> DocV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Checking the label for fluazifop and triclopyr, you cannot seed for 14 days after fluazifop application and 21 days for triclopyr. This means you could probably apply your last application of fluazifop as late as the last week in Aug or the first week in Sept and still overseed by early Oct. You could even apply only fluazifop for your last application and cut a week off your waiting time. Remember to get good seed to soil contact by using a roller or top dressing. I plan to have my landscaping service use a roller.
> 
> 
> 
> This is the spot I am in, I have some Bermuda that I have been painting with glyphosate but also have fusilade + ester but want to reseed ASAP. Maybe just easier to glyphoste the Bermuda and then just reseed those areas vs trying to rely on fusilade + esther and having to wait 3 weeks.
Click to expand...

Im in Fairfax VA and thats my dilemma. Should i just roundup my Bermuda have a decent about spreading around, or have my guy pylex it. Then when should i overseed? I know roundup i can seed same day but what about after pylex?


----------



## LawnScrub

estcstm3 said:


> Im in Fairfax VA and thats my dilemma. Should i just roundup my Bermuda have a decent about spreading around, or have my guy pylex it. Then when should i overseed? I know roundup i can seed same day but what about after pylex?


I'm currently trying to kill bermuda on my hell strip and testing the first application without Glyphosate to see how much damage it can do. I used 0.9 ml pylex, 0.75 oz of triclopyr, and 1 oz mso per gallon for 1000 sqft. Currently on day 6 and the bermuda is turning a lighter green with some areas looks like its dying and drying out. In another section of my yard that I overseeded in the spring seems to be handling the herbicide quite well for now, still early.

But for my hell strip, I am planning on adding Glyphosate to the mix to give it a one two three punch.

Also on the Pylex label it states:

*Non-selective control of Bermudagrass: *
Pylex can be used in combination with glyphosate to improve Bermudagrass control over glyphosate applied alone. Apply Pylex at 2 fl ozs/A with MSO in a tank mix with glyphosate (use labeled rate for Bermudagrass) to control Bermudagrass. If necessary, a second application may be made to control remaining Bermudagrass. DO NOT apply more than 4 fl ozs Pylex per acre per year. Seeding of cool-season species (fescues, ryegrass, Kentucky bluegrass) can be performed immediately after application. Delay seeding bentgrass for 2 weeks. Warm season species (Bermudagrass and seashore paspalum) can be seeded, sprigged or sodded two weeks after application.


----------



## DocV

edixon88 said:


> DocV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DocV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi edison88, I asked the BASF rep if the use of Tenacity and Pylex at the same time while overseeding is advised. I will post his answer here when I get it which should be a few days as he is very responsive. However he may not know because Pylex is made by BASF and Tenacity is made by Syngenta.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not get a response from the BASF rep but I did see in the mesotrione label that they do not recommend applying another HPPD (group 27 herbicide) at the same time so my guess is that Pylex and Tenacity should not be applied at the same time because the tolerance of TTTF to the chemical is dose dependent and that much HPPD inhibitor is a toxic dose to cool season grasses.
> 
> I have changed my plan and will not use mesotrione at overseeding because that is my last Pylex app. I do plan on applying it after the longer of two mowings or 4 weeks after emergence as recommended by the label because Pylex efficacy has been shown to significantly decrease after 28 days. I will say that the amount of weeds and grassy weeds are greatly diminished in my lawn since starting Pylex so I am not so concerned about applying a pre-emergent at seeding time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd still be curious to see if anyone has successfully applied both, at half-rates when overseeding as that(in theory) would not be over-applying HPPD. I assume worst case with that would be additional damage to existing turf, but shouldn't impact germination.
Click to expand...

I got my 2nd Pylex app down last night so I am right there with you.

It is unknown if half rates will be below the toxicity threshold. It should not affect germination and at worst will damage the existing turf.

My thought is that Pylex significantly reduced the weed pressure in my lawn so a pre-emergent at overseed is not that necessary. I may be wrong but my observation is that between Pylex apps I am not getting many weeds. I will spot treat any weeds that occur during the herbicide hold that is required after seeding.


----------



## DocV

LawnScrub said:


> estcstm3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im in Fairfax VA and thats my dilemma. Should i just roundup my Bermuda have a decent about spreading around, or have my guy pylex it. Then when should i overseed? I know roundup i can seed same day but what about after pylex?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm currently trying to kill bermuda on my hell strip and testing the first application without Glyphosate to see how much damage it can do. I used 0.9 ml pylex, 0.75 oz of triclopyr, and 1 oz mso per gallon for 1000 sqft. Currently on day 6 and the bermuda is turning a lighter green with some areas looks like its dying and drying out. In another section of my yard that I overseeded in the spring seems to be handling the herbicide quite well for now, still early.
> 
> But for my hell strip, I am planning on adding Glyphosate to the mix to give it a one two three punch.
> 
> Also on the Pylex label it states:
> 
> *Non-selective control of Bermudagrass: *
> Pylex can be used in combination with glyphosate to improve Bermudagrass control over glyphosate applied alone. Apply Pylex at 2 fl ozs/A with MSO in a tank mix with glyphosate (use labeled rate for Bermudagrass) to control Bermudagrass. If necessary, a second application may be made to control remaining Bermudagrass. DO NOT apply more than 4 fl ozs Pylex per acre per year. Seeding of cool-season species (fescues, ryegrass, Kentucky bluegrass) can be performed immediately after application. Delay seeding bentgrass for 2 weeks. Warm season species (Bermudagrass and seashore paspalum) can be seeded, sprigged or sodded two weeks after application.
Click to expand...

If you have defined areas of just Bermudagrass, then the cheapest route is glyphosate alone or with fluazifop as a kicker. Personally I would save the Pylex for times when I want to suppress Bermuda but allow fescue growth. Either way studies have shown it takes 3 applications of glyphosate to get 90%+ control of Bermudagrass (see my post at the top of this thread for info and references).


----------



## LawnScrub

I agree, but I wanted to see what it does to a define area of bermuda grass. Sometimes its hard to tell under the fescue. The bermuda stolons that was growing out of my flower beds are pretty much toast but on the hell strip its slowly changing to a lighter color. I'm also starting to see bleaching which gives me the confidence that it is working on the other parts of my lawn. Also thanks @docv for all your info, you gave me the confidence to fight this battle.


----------



## DocV

No problem. A single app of glyphosate, topramezone, fluazifop, fenoxaprop and mesotrione will not injury Bermudagrass enough to suppress it. It is really a combination of repeated herbicide insults at the right times in its growing season, fertilizer deprivation and crowding it out using overseeding. Bermudagrass is the alpha of grasses.


----------



## edixon88

I don't have any progress pics, because I stupidly didn't take any, but wanted to give an update for those following and in similar situations. About a week after my first app, I noticed a good amount of browning to everything(my "good" grass was already stressed so this was expected), within a few more days the Bermuda looked pretty rough. Just prior to my second app(20 days after the first), the Bermuda seemed to be coming back although a little thinner and with some bleaching. Now at 8 days after the second app, I'm seeing some bleaching and a little browning but the Bermuda is still slightly outgrowing the surrounding grass. We'll see how it fares over the next two weeks prior to the final pylex app and overseed. Depending on how it looks, I may mix in some gly for the main area that I don't mind having some extra kill.


----------



## estcstm3

thanks not sure ill be able to do more than one glphosate treatment but im sure thats better than nothing and i ll do a heavy handed overseed with tenacity.


----------



## [cofan]

I used glyphosate on large areas of Bermuda and removed it down to bare soil about 2 weeks after it all turned crispy and dead. it's been about a month since glyphosate went down and I'm not seeing any new growth or stolons. I'm sure it's not all dead. anything I should do prior to reseeding? plan on reseeding in 2 or 3 weeks.


----------



## Bybcous

Need some advice, i cannot kill lawn. I want to convert over to a fescue lawn by using pylex herbicide and triclopylr. I was stationed in Florida for 3 years and returned to my home in Chesapeake, VA to a overrun yard of bermuda. My yard is now 65 percent bermuda and 40% fescue.

My plan is to overseed over the next 2-3 years With fescue while using pylex to kill off bermuda as i go. So i will overseed next monthwith fescue and let it grow and next summer begin pylex applications to kill off bermuda and repeat this process over 2 years or so until all the bermuda is gone. Will i be able to make this work.


----------



## LawnScrub

This is a good article on controlling bermuda, https://turf.cals.vt.edu/ClippingFAQ/TurfClippingsearch/Bermuda-control.html.

The main points are
- keep grass at least 4 inches
- apply herbicide late summer, 3 applications
- fill voids with fall seedings, helps control it next year since it will shade the soil.
- use tenacity + triclopyr in spring.

It's a multi year process and overseeding is important to keep the void area shaded the following year.

I am a week into my pylex + triclopyr + mso application and the bermuda is definitely browning while my prg, kbg is still green.

Here is one week progress of the same area, the first photo was after I sprayed my application with true blue dye.


----------



## Bybcous

LawnScrub said:


> This is a good article on controlling bermuda, https://turf.cals.vt.edu/ClippingFAQ/TurfClippingsearch/Bermuda-control.html.
> 
> The main points are
> - keep grass at least 4 inches
> - apply herbicide late summer, 3 applications
> - fill voids with fall seedings, helps control it next year since it will shade the soil.
> - use tenacity + triclopyr in spring.
> 
> It's a multi year process and overseeding is important to keep the void area shaded the following year.
> 
> I am a week into my pylex + triclopyr + mso application and the bermuda is definitely browning while my prg, kbg is still green.
> 
> Here is one week progress of the same area, the first photo was after I sprayed my application with true blue dye.


When do you plan to reseed? Is the end of September to late? Our first frost is usually mid November


----------



## LawnScrub

I am planning for October since I live in southern California and doesn't get cold enough for frost.

It might be too late to control your bermuda and overseed since it can be a 9 week process. Maybe others can chime in.


----------



## DocV

LawnScrub said:


> I am planning for October since I live in southern California and doesn't get cold enough for frost.
> 
> It might be too late to control your bermuda and overseed since it can be a 9 week process. Maybe others can chime in.


@LawnScrub that is a great article. I wonder if it came out after I started this thread because I did not find it. This season I hit my invasive Bermudagrass with fluazifop/triclopyr and am in my 2nd app of Pylex/triclopyr. I will be overseeding in early September. The article is a great find.

@Bybcous fescue needs at the very minimum is 45 days of growth prior to first frost so you could apply Pylex or mesotrione at seeding to help stress the Bermudagrass before winter but do not add triclopyr. Here are the seeding wait times after application for each herbicide:

mesotrione - It can be sprayed at time of seeding. Avoid spraying on newly germinated turfgrass. Otherwise you can spray it.
fluazifop - 14 day wait on reseeding. I do not believe it can be sprayed at seeding.
Pylex - It can be sprayed at time of seeding. 28 day wait on reseeding. 
triclopyr - 21 day wait on reseeding

I was in your shoes last year and decide to tackle the situation this year by applying fluazifop/triclopyr in the spring to limit the spread over summer and then applied Pylex/triclopyr in the fall as well as will overseed at a heavy rate.


----------



## Bybcous

DocV said:


> LawnScrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am planning for October since I live in southern California and doesn't get cold enough for frost.
> 
> It might be too late to control your bermuda and overseed since it can be a 9 week process. Maybe others can chime in.
> 
> 
> 
> @LawnScrub that is a great article. I wonder if it came out after I started this thread because I did not find it. This season I hit my invasive Bermudagrass with fluazifop/triclopyr and am in my 2nd app of Pylex/triclopyr. I will be overseeding in early September. The article is a great find.
> 
> @Bybcous fescue needs at the very minimum is 45 days of growth prior to first frost so you could apply Pylex or mesotrione at seeding to help stress the Bermudagrass before winter but do not add triclopyr. Here are the seeding wait times after application for each herbicide:
> 
> mesotrione - It can be sprayed at time of seeding. Avoid spraying on newly germinated turfgrass. Otherwise you can spray it.
> fluazifop - 14 day wait on reseeding. I do not believe it can be sprayed at seeding.
> Pylex - It can be sprayed at time of seeding. 28 day wait on reseeding.
> triclopyr - 21 day wait on reseeding
> 
> I was in your shoes last year and decide to tackle the situation this year by applying fluazifop/triclopyr in the spring to limit the spread over summer and then applied Pylex/triclopyr in the fall as well as will overseed at a heavy rate.
Click to expand...

Thankyou. I will continue woth my plan to heavily overseed, apply pylex and seed down. and began the pylex/triclopyr 3 applications next year.


----------



## edixon88

How is everyone else doing with their progress? I'm at 15 days after my 2nd Pylex/Triclopyr app and will be doing the final Pylex app and overseeding with TTTF this coming week. I assume it won't matter too much if I'm a day or two early on the 21 day reseeding restriction with Triclopyr(actual date will depend on the forecast). I'm still considering doing the half rate of Pylex with half rate of Tenacity at overseed.

My Bermuda has definitely thinned but is still popping up and outgrowing the grass around it so I'm definitely in for a multi-year process. Hoping a spring app of Pylex and/or Triclopyr and/or Tenacity will help(will look more into that during the winter), along with the TTTF I'm throwing down next week.


----------



## DocV

I am 9 days after my second Pylex/triclopyr app. Most of my Bermuda is brown, but the grass near the concrete still has some green to it. I Pylex and overseed in 2 weeks. So far it is looking good.


----------



## Deadpair

My second app went down Tuesday. 21 days from 1st app would have been Saturday, but the weather did no cooperate. Hoping to see some good progress tonight when I get home or tomorrow. It is interesting to see the green up that occurred toward the end of Week 3.


----------



## edixon88

Hey @DocV, I have a question on the final app when overseeding. I'm going to be cutting low before applying and overseeding but it just dawned on me that I never saw if the order of seeding and applying pylex matters. Do you know if it's recommended to spray, let dry then seed or just spray after seeding like you would with Tenacity?


----------



## Old Hickory

I'm following this thread closely and appreciate those of you who are contributing.

I'm 7 days after my 2nd application of Topra+Triclopr and most of my bermuda is brown. Oddly, the tall fescue that has looked dead is showing signs of life. I'm going to monitor closely and hope I don't need another app because I plan to overseed* (where needed) and reno* (where needed) the last week in September. I think the last week in September will be fine for me to seed as historically the soil will just be getting near 70 degrees and the first 32 degree air temp. isn't until 45 days later (mid November).

*I've been using Topra+Triclopr on the overseed area and Roundup on the reno areas.


----------



## DocV

edixon88 said:


> Hey @DocV, I have a question on the final app when overseeding. I'm going to be cutting low before applying and overseeding but it just dawned on me that I never saw if the order of seeding and applying pylex matters. Do you know if it's recommended to spray, let dry then seed or just spray after seeding like you would with Tenacity?


@edixon88 the order of spraying and seeding does not seem to matter per the Pylex label but after seeding you should not spray for 28 days. This is probably because Pylex does not have pre-emergent properties. I take it to mean you should not seed then spray days later once germination has started to occur because then it can stress the growing seed. You should probably seed then spray so the seed does not stick to the blades and instead falls to the soil.

In thinking about it more, you could spray Pylex, let it dry and then seed.


----------



## Deadpair

How did everyone's second app do? Maybe because part of the Bermuda was already dying off the second Pylex/Tri app was not near as noticeable.

Also, how low do you intend to mow prior to your overseed.


----------



## Old Hickory

@Deadpair My second app was 2 weeks ago. And I'm pleased, so far. My bermuda is looking bad and the sun is getting lower in the sky (moving back behind two large oak trees) so the lack of sunlight is helping to suppress it, also. I may spot spray a few areas this weekend but I think the overall supression stage is done.

We're going to have a few days in the 90s this week but cooler temps are coming.


----------



## greengrass

I did 2 apps of Tenacity + Triclopyr in the Spring. I'm almost ready for 3rd app of Pylex + Triclopyr. My last app seemed to do more damage to the good grass. Haven't decided if I will overseed because the good grass appears to be spreading out without any bermuda competition. I also put some KBG plugs in dead areas a couple weeks ago. Have you all been spot spraying the bermuda regrowth, or blanket spraying the same areas as your previous apps?


----------



## Deadpair

My second app was blanket. Will spray one more Pylex only at seed down.

I am questioning the quality of my TTTF - taking back over from prior company - so I may do full renovation next year or following year. My thinking it at least I will have head start on Bermuda because the gly kill off may or may not get it all anyway and this way I take a shot at not having my whole yard dead at one time.


----------



## Suny12

I am about to do my last app of Pylex and Triclopyr on Saturday. I have held off putting any fertilizer down for fall blitz to not provide any N to the Bermuda grass. Would it be OK to put urea down soon after my last application to promote fescue growth? My only concern is that by promoting fescue growth, it may allow Pylex/triclopyr to do more damage to the fescue.


----------



## LawnScrub

I just applied my 2nd app. Bermuda is dying but some new growth is growing. I am really surprised at how well it suppresses the bermuda on one application. 1st week felt like nothing is happening, then 2nd week is when the bermuda started to turn brown, by 3rd week its all crispy with some new growth. Hopefully the 2nd and 3rd application will completely empty the bermuda stored food reserved and die off completely.

I was also thinking of applying some fertilizer but since I did a soil test and have a decent amount of NPK already in my soil. So I will be applying starter fertilizer about 3 weeks after I seed. Don't want my seedlings to compete with my current grass. I made that mistake in the spring and that's why I am dealing with the bermuda now. Didn't know I had bermuda infestation at overseed, so I fertilize and watched the bermuda rapidly over take my seedlings.


----------



## Deadpair

Interesting development after second app. I am on day 10 post second app of Pylex/Tryp.

My fescue is really taking a beating with this second app. Yellowing and some die off. Probably not as much rain as after app 1. Debating holding off on 3rd Pylex app at day of overseeding. The good news is that I have some bad cultivars In my yard and I am planning a heavy overseed so this might be a good thing.


----------



## greengrass

When using Pylex at seed down are you supposed to wait a day to apply water since Pylex says no rain/irrigation for 24 hours?


----------



## DocV

Suny12 said:


> I am about to do my last app of Pylex and Triclopyr on Saturday. I have held off putting any fertilizer down for fall blitz to not provide any N to the Bermuda grass. Would it be OK to put urea down soon after my last application to promote fescue growth? My only concern is that by promoting fescue growth, it may allow Pylex/triclopyr to do more damage to the fescue.


Do not add triclopyr to your last app of Pylex (3rd app) because you cannot seed for 21 days after spraying. If you use just Pylex you can immediately seed.


----------



## Deadpair

Hey @DocV what is your update?

Today I cut down to 2 3/4" in preparation for final Pylex, aeration and overseeding on Tuesday. Weather conditions should be ideal.


----------



## DocV

Just applied the 3rd app of Pylex only and then seeded at 10 lbs./1M. Now starts the 3-4x/day watering. I plan to wait a week before fertilizing to allow the seed to germinate and not cause rapid growth of existing grass.


----------



## Bybcous

keep us updated, im follwing your progress @docv


----------



## DocV

greengrass said:


> When using Pylex at seed down are you supposed to wait a day to apply water since Pylex says no rain/irrigation for 24 hours?


Yes. I overseeded and let my system water according to schedule the next morning which was about 18 hours after the Pylex application.


----------



## DocV

Bybcous said:


> keep us updated, im follwing your progress @docv


@Bybcous by the 3rd Pylex app most of my Bermudagrass was brown and the previously brown areas were not getting any color back so hopefully they are dead. I did notice that Bermuda that was next to the concrete and asphalt did green back up. It could be that I missed those spots or that the heat off those surfaces promoted an enhanced growth rate that allowed it to overcome the herbicide. I paid special attention to those areas at this last spraying.

I have set my system to water 3x/day for 5 minutes each zone. This is in addition to the 2x/week deep watering. My wife is going to kill me when she seems the water bill. Luckily the temps in Nashville for the next 10 days are way below normal. This time last year we were in the low 90s and this week it will be 72-80F so perfect for growing fescue.


----------



## greengrass

DocV said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> When using Pylex at seed down are you supposed to wait a day to apply water since Pylex says no rain/irrigation for 24 hours?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. I overseeded and let my system water according to schedule the next morning which was about 18 hours after the Pylex application.
Click to expand...

I waited as well. Did my 3rd app with 0.9ml Pylex + 1oz MSO. Overseeded and covered with peat moss, then let the rain start the next day. Just like last year there is now 0% chance of rain for a week or more. At least the temperatures are in the 60s/70s. Last year it was still reaching 90s and my overseed wasn't very successful. Most of the bermuda has died off, but there is still a couple spots with green.


----------



## LawnScrub

On my 2nd week after my 2nd application and notice more of an effect on my good grass. More bleaching at the tips and centers and lighter blades of grass. It's still growing out and after my 3rd mow, it should be mostly gone. The bermuda is mostly dried up runners that have no leaves. Not sure if I should do a 3rd application of pylex + Triclopyr since I am pushing back my overseed until late Oct due to a patio cover being replaced and not wanting the new seedlings to be walked on. Or if I should start training my grass with PGR before the overseed.


----------



## LawnScrub

DocV said:


> Bybcous said:
> 
> 
> 
> keep us updated, im follwing your progress @docv
> 
> 
> 
> @Bybcous by the 3rd Pylex app most of my Bermudagrass was brown and the previously brown areas were not getting any color back so hopefully they are dead. I did notice that Bermuda that was next to the concrete and asphalt did green back up. It could be that I missed those spots or that the heat off those surfaces promoted an enhanced growth rate that allowed it to overcome the herbicide. I paid special attention to those areas at this last spraying.
> 
> I have set my system to water 3x/day for 5 minutes each zone. This is in addition to the 2x/week deep watering. My wife is going to kill me when she seems the water bill. Luckily the temps in Nashville for the next 10 days are way below normal. This time last year we were in the low 90s and this week it will be 72-80F so perfect for growing fescue.
Click to expand...

I also notice that the area next to the concrete is growing again. I think I need to turn my nozzle 45 degrees and spray into the edges. I also had some extra mix leftover and threw that in a small spray bottle for situations like this.


----------



## Bybcous

.........


----------



## greengrass

> I also notice that the area next to the concrete is growing again. I think I need to turn my nozzle 45 degrees and spray into the edges. I also had some extra mix leftover and threw that in a small spray bottle for situations like this.


Any idea how long Pylex will last in a sprayer? Would like to do quick spot sprays without mixing up a full tank all the time.


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## LawnScrub

I poured my extra mix into a small spray bottle after my first application. Seems like it still works about a month later, just shake it a bit. I also poured in a little more blue dye so I can see my spot spray better.


----------



## greengrass

I have germination on day 8 after last app and overseeding. Seeing bits of bermuda popping up too. Don't seeing any bleaching on the bermuda yet.


----------



## LawnScrub

How's everyone overseeding going after their last application of pylex? My last application is this week and wondering if pylex alone does anything to the remaining bermuda. I used a string trimmer to remove some of the grass and thatch around my edges and notice some green bermuda stolons still hiding below. Most of my bermuda patches are dead but there's still some lingering around. Debating if I should just apply another round of pylex + Triclopyr.


----------



## greengrass

LawnScrub said:


> How's everyone overseeding going after their last application of pylex? My last application is this week and wondering if pylex alone does anything to the remaining bermuda. I used a string trimmer to remove some of the grass and thatch around my edges and notice some green bermuda stolons still hiding below. Most of my bermuda patches are dead but there's still some lingering around. Debating if I should just apply another round of pylex + Triclopyr.


I started seeing bleaching on the bermuda with just the pylex around day 11.


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## DocV

It took about 7 days before the first signs of bleaching were occurring after my 3rd app without triclopyr. At day 9 post seeding, the seedlings are about 1 inch tall. I am watering for 5 min, 3x/day and twice a week I water deep.

Opps forgot to mention that I fertilized with 0.5 lb. N/M at 7 days post seeding.


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## LawnScrub

How did you guys remove your dead bermuda, or did you guys just throw some top soil and seed over it?


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## greengrass

LawnScrub said:


> How did you guys remove your dead bermuda, or did you guys just throw some top soil and seed over it?


I raked out the dead bermuda to expose the bare soil better.


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## DocV

Seeded and then raked the lawn to allow the seed to fall to the soil.


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## edixon88

I haven't taken nearly as many progress pics as I should have but I've had great/poor results. I ended up doing the two Pylex/Triclopyr apps, then overseeded, sprayed pylex and tenacity(both at 1/2-2/3 rates) on 9/13. My overseed is coming in great but some areas have a lot of the Bermuda coming back strong with it.

Overall I won't complain because I went from dirt and a lot of Bermuda to TTTF and some Bermuda. I'm hoping my next tenacity app in a few weeks will knock it back a bit then I'll circle back and see what I should do in the spring(pylex, tenacity, triclopyr, etc.)

7/21 - Bermuda is the only thing thriving:


8/1 - Heat/Drought taking a toll on everything except the Bermuda:


8/14 - 2 weeks after first Pylex/Triclopyr App:


9/11 - Stump is gone, hole is filled and lawn is scalped:


9/28 - 15 days after seed down, ~10 DAG(first cut was on 9/27):


9/30 - 17 days after seed down, ~12 DAG(first cut was on 9/27):


9/30 - 17 days after seed down, ~12 DAG(first cut was on 9/27) Opposite angle to show the Bermuda sticking above the TTTF:


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## LawnScrub

edixon88 said:


> I haven't taken nearly as many progress pics as I should have but I've had great/poor results. I ended up doing the two Pylex/Triclopyr apps, then overseeded, sprayed pylex and tenacity(both at 1/2-2/3 rates) on 9/13. My overseed is coming in great but some areas have a lot of the Bermuda coming back strong with it.
> 
> Overall I won't complain because I went from dirt and a lot of Bermuda to TTTF and some Bermuda. I'm hoping my next tenacity app in a few weeks will knock it back a bit then I'll circle back and see what I should do in the spring(pylex, tenacity, triclopyr, etc.)
> 
> 7/21 - Bermuda is the only thing thriving:
> 
> 
> 8/1 - Heat/Drought taking a toll on everything except the Bermuda:
> 
> 
> 8/14 - 2 weeks after first Pylex/Triclopyr App:
> 
> 
> 9/11 - Stump is gone, hole is filled and lawn is scalped:
> 
> 
> 9/28 - 15 days after seed down, ~10 DAG(first cut was on 9/27):
> 
> 
> 9/30 - 17 days after seed down, ~12 DAG(first cut was on 9/27):
> 
> 
> 9/30 - 17 days after seed down, ~12 DAG(first cut was on 9/27) Opposite angle to show the Bermuda sticking above the TTTF:


That's some tall bermuda, I dont think mine ever got that tall. It just spreads sideways and take over, suffocating any other grass that tries to grow.


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## edixon88

This thread seems to have died. How did everyone do?

My overseed looks okay but I have an issue popping up in the area that I was fighting the common bermuda. If you notice my earlier pics, the ground was pretty bare and even the common bermuda wasn't too healthy. Is this the common bermuda coming back but more healthy now that we've had cooler temps and I've been watering/fertilizing? It's growing faster than my Hogan Blend TTTF.


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## estcstm3

i ended up just glyphosating the area and seeding, pylex, tenacity, etc.. .its too much work and half the time the crap is still there...just my 2cents.


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## Bybcous

i ended up not wanting to wait until next year for front yard and decided to gly it and reseeded 3 days later on October 4, today is about 5 days after germination and it came in terrible, i think i added to much top soil on top of grass seed. At this point the front half close to my house came in good and he back half nothing barely grew. today i reseeded the bare patches and am hoping for the best. Tall fescue came in great in the backyard where nothing was treated and bermuda was left to do its thing. I cannot wait for next year to start the pylex treatments back there and reseed with more tall fescue. No bermuda has grown back in front yard, and we still have temps in mid 70s low 60s at night for the next few weeks, but i expect it to begin dropping. i really just want to get two cuts in on this fescue before first frost and i think ill be safe as the backyard has matured so much in only 30 days


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## LawnScrub

@edixon88 Not sure if that is bermuda, looks like something else.

I just seeded my lawn about 6 days ago with 4th millennium from United seed and already see good germination. The wait is finally over. I can finally kick off my boots and relax my feet and watch the grass grow. Most of the bermuda is gone (about 90%) but still see some stragglers coming through. I knew its a long battle and surprised how well it did. One tip I would recommend is spreading the application out to at least 4 weeks apart. That will allow your grass to recover and more time for the bermuda to grow before applying again. The key is to get it while its about to go dormant. For me in California, I don't think it goes dormant until Dec or Jan.


----------



## edixon88

LawnScrub said:


> @edixon88 Not sure if that is bermuda, looks like something else.
> 
> I just seeded my lawn about 6 days ago with 4th millennium from United seed and already see good germination. The wait is finally over. I can finally kick off my boots and relax my feet and watch the grass grow. Most of the bermuda is gone (about 90%) but still see some stragglers coming through. I knew its a long battle and surprised how well it did. One tip I would recommend is spreading the application out to at least 4 weeks apart. That will allow your grass to recover and more time for the bermuda to grow before applying again. The key is to get it while its about to go dormant. For me in California, I don't think it goes dormant until Dec or Jan.


Here's another one I pulled out, any thoughts? I spent a ton of time early in the summer trying to identify this and landed on common bermuda but open to suggestions if it could be something else.


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## Old Hickory

Bermuda has a "runner" type root system When you pull it... it comes out in a string. Does this?


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## DocV

That does not look like Bermuda. The blades have prominent veins like fescue. It is probably a course non-turf type tall fescue like Kentucky 31 (https://turf.purdue.edu/tall-fescue/). It is hard to tell if the ligules match that of fescue but the Purdue link has a pic. Here is a link to a good article for identifying other grassy weeds (https://aroundtheyard.com/index.php...0:identifying-grassy-weeds&catid=9&Itemid=117). The pic you posted does not look like any of them, but please compare them.

I also have that in my turf type tall fescue lawn. If it is non-turf type tall fescue, then unfortunately there is no selective herbicide for it since it is fescue. It must be killed with the non-selective herbicide, glyphosate. Probably need to paint it on the leaves.

Otherwise I have very little Bermudagrass left in my lawn after the course Pylex. The overseed at 10 lbs./M with Proven Turf Technologies Turf Type Tall Fescue (Houndog 8, SR8650 and Nightcrawler varieties) came in very well and dense. 2 weeks after the initial fertilization with 0.5 lb. N/M, I put down 1.3 lbs. N/M of Lesco 24-0-11 (the spreader setting was too course).


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## edixon88

That's an interesting thought, I never even considered it could be something like K31. It would definitely make sense tho. I plan on mowing again tomorrow, I'll try to get a couple better pics before I do. One question on K31, doesn't that tend to grow in bunches? This seems to be mixed in pretty well without any one area having more than the rest. Pics tomorrow will show it better tho


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## TheEggMan

I want genetically engineered grubs that only eat bermuda roots.

Or maybe trained grubs .......

Put the little beasts to good use.


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## chazas

Second year with my lawn - contractor at my new house put down TTTF sod but there's been a lot of work to get it up to speed. Last year I used Tenacity then glyphosate on the stragglers before over seeding. This year used Pylex plus triclopyr x2 then just Pylex right before overseeding. After the second year of oveseeding the lawn is mostly looking great but some of that smoked Bermuda is starting to grow back in. Wondering whether it's worth a final Pylex app, super targeted, this late in the year - worried about the effect on the new seedlings.


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## Old Hickory

I did the Bermuda suppression (that's what I call it) on a large portion of my backyard and I see some of the same. Not growing foliar but some green in the stolons... so not dead. And I didn't expect it to die in one season. So I'm staying with the plan, going to wait out the fall and winter, and push the new growth of my TTTF and hope that I have a healthy thick lawn in March. That's the plan.


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## VALawnNoob

i did 3 applications of Fusillade and Tricoplyr 30 days apart during the growing season and a final glyphosate app a few days before seeding. By the end of the 2nd app, the entire area was smoked since it was during heat of the summer so I just let the ground fallow for a while. I even used a scarifier after 3rd app to till up the dirt/stolon just to see if they would come back.

I can tell you from results Bermuda grass = Zombies. They just hang on to the very end and yet still have stolons that have something left in them whenever it rains a lot despite no green in them. Currently, the new seedlings have come up but I have 2 single Bermuda plants that have survived the ordeal. I would chalk it up to a 95% success rate so far but I wouldn't surprised if there's more that will come back by spring.

Should I glyphosate the 2 bermuda plants now or should I wait until spring since they are close to going dormant?


----------



## LawnScrub

VALawnNoob said:


> i did 3 applications of Fusillade and Tricoplyr 30 days apart during the growing season and a final glyphosate app a few days before seeding. By the end of the 2nd app, the entire area was smoked since it was during heat of the summer so I just let the ground fallow for a while. I even used a scarifier after 3rd app to till up the dirt/stolon just to see if they would come back.
> 
> I can tell you from results Bermuda grass = Zombies. They just hang on to the very end and yet still have stolons that have something left in them whenever it rains a lot despite no green in them. Currently, the new seedlings have come up but I have 2 single Bermuda plants that have survived the ordeal. I would chalk it up to a 95% success rate so far but I wouldn't surprised if there's more that will come back by spring.
> 
> Should I glyphosate the 2 bermuda plants now or should I wait until spring since they are close to going dormant?


I did the same but after my 2nd application, I used the scarifier to help exposed all the stolons underneath the dead grass. While most of the bermuda is toast, I am also seeing a couple bermuda plant popping up. I might just carefully hit it with glyphosate since its easy to get to. Figuring by spring time, its going to be hard to find.


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## DocV

Like LawnScrub, you can go after that bermuda if it is a very defined area so as not to injury the new TTTF. Just remember the goal of fall is to establish and thicken up the new TTTF so it crowds out the bermudagrass.

I really like the Spring and Fall approach to suppressing bermudagrass because it helps limit its spread over the summer months, starves it over the fall/winter months and crowds it out with overseeding so if you are seeing bermudagrass stolons, like I am in my lawn, I highly recommend a multi-year, multi-season approach. In the spring I will know better the actual reduction in bermudagrass, but I can say that all the yellow, bermudagrass portions of my lawn have been replaced with dense green TTTF.

I have to say I never expected my OP to spark such robust interest and discussion. I hope we all compare notes next spring. I have some pics of my lawn this season prior to my bermudagrass suppression treatments. I'll snap some pics next spring and post them for comparison. I'll try to get some pics today and post the spring vs. fall pics.



VALawnNoob said:


> i did 3 applications of Fusillade and Tricoplyr 30 days apart during the growing season and a final glyphosate app a few days before seeding. By the end of the 2nd app, the entire area was smoked since it was during heat of the summer so I just let the ground fallow for a while. I even used a scarifier after 3rd app to till up the dirt/stolon just to see if they would come back.
> 
> I can tell you from results Bermuda grass = Zombies. They just hang on to the very end and yet still have stolons that have something left in them whenever it rains a lot despite no green in them. Currently, the new seedlings have come up but I have 2 single Bermuda plants that have survived the ordeal. I would chalk it up to a 95% success rate so far but I wouldn't surprised if there's more that will come back by spring.
> 
> Should I glyphosate the 2 bermuda plants now or should I wait until spring since they are close to going dormant?


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## edixon88

Looks like what I have growing in with my overseed might actually be quack grass after all. Just pulled this one out and this is the first time I've seen a clasping auricle.


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## DocV

It looks like you are correct. According to the label of Fusilade II and Ornamec Over the Top (active ingredient fluazifop) it is a selective herbicide for quackgrass.


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## LawnScrub

I also read some where that if you mow often, you can deplete their sugar reserve and starve it out.

"Quackgrass might seem like a superweed but don't worry. It has an achilles heel. From here on this article will branch out from one very simple concept, the essential secret to controlling quackgrass. To summarize, there are a finite amount of sugar or energy stores in every quackgrass rhizome. Every time a rhizome shoots a leaf blade, it depletes some of its energy. The plant will not reach sufficient photosynthetic capacity to replace rhizome energy stores until there are three or four new leaves. Thus if the plant is allowed to shoot but tilled or mowed before it reaches three or four leaves, rhizome energy stores are at a net loss. If this process is repeated- letting it shoot leaves and knocking the plant back down - then eventually all energy stores in the rhizome become depleted and sianara quackgrass."

https://newfarmerproject.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/outsmarting-quackgrass/

I went through this with dallisgrass in one of my overseed. Was able to contain that but that's when I realize half my lawn was being invaded by bermuda and eventually crowded out my new seedlings. I used that as a learning experience because I am in the process of redoing my back yard since I had to raise my soil level. It was lower then the concrete. Just another reason for me to remove the Scotts sun and shade mix I planted in spring, and switch to 4th millennium/KBG mix.


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## jd thomas

Hope it's ok if I jump in here and add on to this thread...

I'm planning to attack the bermuda in my lawn next year with applications of Turflon Ester and Acclaim (got one app down late summer this year and it did noticeably knock back the bermuda, so I am encouraged.

Anyway, what I want to know is if there would be any problems with adding Image (which is Sulfentrazone and Quinclorac) into my Turflon/Acclaim mix? I have a bottle of it sitting around, so want to put it to good use against some of the other random weeds in the lawn.


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## macattack

I am in the same boat, bermuda and TTTF. I will just keep the TTTF long and overseed it next year with more TTTF.


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## lpd4321

I did 3 applications of pylex and had great results with suppressing bermuda grass in my tall fescue lawn. I over seeded my tall fescue lawn on Sept 20th.

However, there are a few spots in the yard where may be I didn't spray enough and I can see few signs of bermuda. Should I go ahead and do 4th application of pylex in these spots? I am worried that pylex may damage my new fescue which is only about 45 days old. Or should I just hand pick these bermuda plants? Weather forecast for next week is in the 70s.


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## VALawnNoob

lpd4321 said:


> I did 3 applications of pylex and had great results with suppressing bermuda grass in my tall fescue lawn. I over seeded my tall fescue lawn on Sept 20th.
> 
> However, there are a few spots in the yard where may be I didn't spray enough and I can see few signs of bermuda. Should I go ahead and do 4th application of pylex in these spots? I am worried that pylex may damage my new fescue which is only about 45 days old. Or should I just hand pick these bermuda plants? Weather forecast for next week is in the 70s.


i would wait for growing season since bermuda is going dormant here in VA. you will end up just injuring the new fescue.


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## DocV

For those that helped create the lively discussion last year, thanks for all your input. I thought I would give an update of my hybrid spring/fall approach and the results. My hybrid approach is to combine: 1) spring suppression of Bermudagrass with fluzifop/triclopyr and fall suppression with topramezone/triclopyr, 2) timing of the applications to ensure herbicide is in the ground during the GDD10C of 200, 1775 and 2250 days, 3) fertilization only when fescue is growing and not in the summer months to starve the Bermudagrass and finally 4) overseeding in fall at 9-10 lbs. TTTF/M all as a means to maximally stress Bermudagrass.

Here are pics of the lawn in late May. The lighter green areas are the Bermudagrass. My pics are not great at showing the differences before and after (see below) the plan but I think you can see the difference. My backyard has far less Bermudagrass but it is slowly expanding. One of my neighbors has a Bermudagrass lawn, the other has TTTF but his has Bermudagrass in it.




*Spring*
I did not have fluazifop/triclopyr in time for GDD10C 200 and applied on GDD10C 312 (May 5) and reapplied 24 days later (GDD10C 520). I then gave the fescue a break over the hot Nashville summer months to recover. At this point the Bermudagrass was brown and did not look healthy, but it recovered June through July.

*Fall*
On August 5th (GDD10C 1591) I applied Pylex/triclopyr and then again on August 26th (GDD10C 1918). For the last Pylex application on September 20th (GDD10C 2269) I omitted the triclopyr and overseeded at 9 lbs. TTTF/M.

After the first Pylex application it took about 2 weeks to see stress in the Bermudagrass and it was definitely stressed after the second application. After all 3 applications it was completely brown and severely stressed. The Bermudagrass near the concrete curb faired the best because of the extra heat that promotes growth. In discussions with a BASF rep, he noted that when Bermudagrass is at the height of its growth it can outgrow the Pylex toxicity. The fescue seed came in very dense. The benefit of this density was that it suppressed most weeds. Here are pics in late fall, late October that is.




I'll shortly be repeating this plan but starting the fluazifop/triclopyr applications on GDD10C, which is about a month prior to last year, and repeating them every 4 weeks through May. This should result in an extra 1-2 spring applications. Also I will overseed in September at 3 lbs./M and not the 9 lbs./M.

It would be interesting to hear how everyone else faired. Keep up the good fight.


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## g-man

Awesome looking yard. Give that bermuda no quarter.


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## DocV

@g-man thanks for the compliment. My hope is that once the Pylex is used up that I can spot maintenance spray with fluazifop/triclopyr. Spraying 16,536 sq.ft. in the hot summer sun gets old after a while. I have a demilitarized zone between my neighbor's Bermuda lawn and my TTTF that will need to be sprayed each season to prevent the spread.

I see you are in Fishers, IN, from 2003-2007 I lived in Brownsburg, IN and commuted to Purdue University for work.


----------



## jskierko

Beautiful, the perfect color!



DocV said:


> I see you are in Fishers, IN, from 2003-2007 I lived in Brownsburg, IN and commuted to Purdue University for work.


I live about 500 yards from Brownsburg


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## dleonard11122

I just picked up Gordon's Ornamec Over-The-Top from DMO. $80 for 32oz of 6.75% Fluazifop-P-butyl. I am going to try and suppress/kill the bermuda that is invading my landscape beds, as well as the little bit I have in my Tall Fescue. I am also going to try it out on what I think is some quackgrass growing in the lawn as well.

I'll be following your recommendations on page 1 and applying Fluazifop + triclopyr + NIS.


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## VALawnNoob

I've not seen any traces of the bermuda so far in the spring. They are sitting dormant and when I last killed off in the fall after 3-4 applications last growing season, I didn't see any blades above ground. Now they are going to be even harder to see as TTTF is coming out of dormancy.


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## LawnScrub

Just want to follow up on this post on my progress. The bermuda in my backyard is completely gone. While my front, I tried to nuke the side strip but can still see some bermuda coming up. The TTTF and KBG is coming in thick, I don't think I ever had grass this dense. Also never had so many compliments on how nice my grass is, definitely makes it worth it.

Back Lawn, 2nd application of plex + triclopyr 


Back Lawn Now


Front Lawn - reno the side strips while overseeding and killing bermuda on the front lawn.


Front Lawn now


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## DocV

@LawnScrub The lawn looks great! Well done and stay vigilant.


----------



## ergray3

Today we hit GDD10C 200 in Chattanooga. I did a three app round of Pylex last fall, which seems to have worked pretty well, although the bermuda around here is just now waking up and would admittedly be hard to see beneath my TTTF. I thought I would try Doc's hybrid approach this year; do a spring application and see if there was improved effectiveness through this season. I used fenoxaprop instead of fluazifop since fenoxaprop was available inexpensively in diluted form from HD via BioAdvanced Bermudagrass control. I added triclopyr as well. As it stands, I'm planning on just the one spring application and then the three Pylex fall applications, but curious if others are doing multiple early applications of fluazifop/fenoxaprop in addition to a Pylex regimen? The way I understood the paper about the timing, additional spring treatments didn't significantly increase control, but perhaps I misunderstood?

My neighbor has common Bermuda so I know I'll never eradicate it, but if I can get down to just annually spraying my border with his yard, I'll be content.


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## DocV

@ergray3 You are correct on the spring timing. GDD10C 200 gave the longest suppression post application followed by 450. You could do an application at 200 and then again 4 weeks later which is right around 450. Fluazifop should not be applied once the temps rise above 85F (without irrigation) and 90F (with irrigation)as the fescue is stressed so mid-end May is probably the last time you can apply it. Fenoxaprop is gentler but less effective so it can be applied throughout the summer so long as the fescue does not look stressed.


----------



## ergray3

DocV said:


> @ergray3 You are correct on the spring timing. GDD10C 200 gave the longest suppression post application followed by 450. You could do an application at 200 and then again 4 weeks later which is right around 450. Fluazifop should not be applied once the temps rise above 85F (without irrigation) and 90F (with irrigation)as the fescue is stressed so mid-end May is probably the last time you can apply it. Fenoxaprop is gentler but less effective so it can be applied throughout the summer so long as the fescue does not look stressed.


Thanks!! Very helpful


----------



## Old Hickory

ergray3 said:


> Today we hit GDD10C 200 in Chattanooga.


What does this mean?



ergray3 said:


> but curious if others are doing multiple early applications of fluazifop/fenoxaprop in addition to a Pylex regimen?


Are you spraying where the bermuda was in the Fall thinking that it could still be there, although you cannot see it? I ask this because that would be my situation, as well. My reno last fall has come in really good and the TTTF is thick and healthy. Today, April 28, I cannot see any bermuda in my lawn but I suspect it's there waiting to attack. I have all 3 of the above herbicides on hand. I'll need to use the Ornamec soon as temps are rising to the mid 80s.


----------



## ergray3

Old Hickory said:


> ergray3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today we hit GDD10C 200 in Chattanooga.
> 
> 
> 
> What does this mean?
Click to expand...

Growing Degree Days base 10 degrees Celsius. Its a mathematical tracking from 1/1/2021 that takes the average daily temperature (in C), subtracts 10C (minimum daily value of 0) and then sums the result for each day. I use Greencast to keep track of it:
https://www.greencastonline.com/growing-degree-days/home 
If you set up a free account, they'll email you when you've hit whatever target you set. Make sure you use the correct base temperature (50F, 32F, 10C, 0C). The papers @DocV posted used 10C, so that's what I followed.



Old Hickory said:


> ergray3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> but curious if others are doing multiple early applications of fluazifop/fenoxaprop in addition to a Pylex regimen?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you spraying where the bermuda was in the Fall thinking that it could still be there, although you cannot see it? I ask this because that would be my situation, as well. My reno last fall has come in really good and the TTTF is thick and healthy. Today, April 28, I cannot see any bermuda in my lawn but I suspect it's there waiting to attack. I have all 3 of the above herbicides on hand. I'll need to use the Ornamec soon as temps are rising to the mid 80s.
Click to expand...

Yes, I've had it for several years, last year was my first try at getting some control, it's pretty easy for me as it's basically the 1000sqft nearest my neighbor's yard. If it's intermingled, I suppose you could blanket the whole yard. One day out and I haven't seen any negative impact on the TTTF. I haven't gotten down close to look for new Bermuda in the section this year but I've read it takes about 3 years of Pylex applications to get good control; as I've only done one year of treatment I figure it'll be back this summer, hopefully to a lesser extent.


----------



## Old Hickory

I thought I would chime in on my attempts to suppress the bermuda in my TTTF. I also went with Doc's hybrid approach and sprayed on May 7:

Fluazifop (Ornamec OTT) @ 0.14 oz/m + Triclopyr (Turflon Ester) @ 0.73 oz/m + NIS @ 0.3 oz/m

Although, I cannot say that the bermuda is actively growing because I cannot find/see it doing so. So I was spraying and praying the known areas where bermuda has lived in the past. I'll wait to see what happens in the next 28 days or so when the air temps rise to near 90s and the TTTF begins to stress and bermuda to grow. Although, I had planted a three-trunk Dura-Heat river birch that is now providing a lot of shade to the areas where bermuda has previously thrived. En garde!


----------



## lpd4321

I sprayed with pylex and triclopyr last fall. So far I see common Bermuda coming up in few of the areas.

Is it worth hand picking bermuda shoots that you see? I probably won't get all the roots but I am wondering if it's worth the effort in suppressing it somewhat?


----------



## ergray3

Can't hurt, but in my case it would be a week's worth of work to make any significant impact.


----------



## VALawnNoob

lpd4321 said:


> I sprayed with pylex and triclopyr last fall. So far I see common Bermuda coming up in few of the areas.
> 
> Is it worth hand picking bermuda shoots that you see? I probably won't get all the roots but I am wondering if it's worth the effort in suppressing it somewhat?


How many times did you spray with Pylex and Triclopyr? I did some hand pulling late last season but IMO it is not worth the effort. I would be consistent with multi-app through out this growing season.


----------



## DocV

2 apps of Pylex + triclopyr and the final app of just Pylex. My first post in this thread has the regimen. You can spray with fluazifop + triclopyr through out the summer but you have to watch out for stress on the fescue. In my opinion and in consultation with BASF (the maker of Pylex) it's not worth spraying in the summer because bermuda growth is too robust and can out grow the toxicity of herbicides.


----------



## g-man

@DocV now that Bermuda should be alive in TN, how is it looking in your yard? Is the pyrex working?


----------



## smsrmdlol

Old Hickory said:


> Fluazifop (Ornamec OTT) @ 0.14 oz/m + Triclopyr (Turflon Ester) @ 0.73 oz/m + NIS @ 0.3 oz/m


does m = 1000 sq ft? Thank you


----------



## ergray3

smsrmdlol said:


> Old Hickory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Fluazifop (Ornamec OTT) @ 0.14 oz/m + Triclopyr (Turflon Ester) @ 0.73 oz/m + NIS @ 0.3 oz/m
> 
> 
> 
> does m = 1000 sq ft? Thank you
Click to expand...

Yes


----------



## lpd4321

DocV said:


> 2 apps of Pylex + triclopyr and the final app of just Pylex. My first post in this thread has the regimen. You can spray with fluazifop + triclopyr through out the summer but you have to watch out for stress on the fescue. In my opinion and in consultation with BASF (the maker of Pylex) it's not worth spraying in the summer because bermuda growth is too robust and can out grow the toxicity of herbicides.


With temperatures hitting 90F I don't wanna spray triclopyr as it would definitely harm the fescue.

Is pylex less stressful on fescue during the summer heat? I am thinking of spot spraying it just to stunt bermuda and keep it from spreading.


----------



## DocV

In the summer it is not worth the effort to apply herbicide to bermuda as it is growing so fast it will outgrow the toxicity of the herbicide (BASF confirmed this). If you still want to the less harsh herbicides on fescue are Pylex and fenoxprop. Of these Pylex is far more effective at suppressing bermuda. You can use fluazifop but just pay attention to see if the fescue becomes stressed.


----------



## Grass Clippins

I did a bulk order of Topramezone - 29.7%. A little bit goes a long way so I'm splitting what I don't need. 
Click here for my chemical exchange thread.


----------



## ergray3

Follow up to my fall pylex and spring fenoxaprop/triclopyr apps. My fall apps had some decent suppression. Using PGR this year on the TTTF which has made the recurring Bermuda less of an eyesore, which is nice.

This spring I did not blanket with fenoxaprop, as I wasn't able to actually visualize Bermuda so I went along the property line and where it was worst last summer. It is now today very obviously better controlled in the pylex fall+fenoxaprop spring area than further into the yard where there was only a fall pylex series. I will DEFINITELY be blanketing the yard with fenoxaprop next spring! Just thought others would appreciate the data point.


----------



## stevehollx

Anyone ever use a round of Tenacity in the height of summer to highlight the bermuda before spraying pylex+triclopyr on the spots? Wondering if Tenacity is less stressful in the middle of summer to apply than pylex.

I toasted some of my fescue with the second app of pylex+triclopy which is why I'm curious. Not sure if it was the pylex or the triclopyr though. I staggered the triclopyr app +1 week from pylex, which in hindsight was a mistake but forgot to add the triclopyr when pylex went down.


----------



## VALawnNoob

stevehollx said:


> Anyone ever use a round of Tenacity in the height of summer to highlight the bermuda before spraying pylex+triclopyr on the spots? Wondering if Tenacity is less stressful in the middle of summer to apply than pylex.
> 
> I toasted some of my fescue with the second app of pylex+triclopy which is why I'm curious. Not sure if it was the pylex or the triclopyr though. I staggered the triclopyr app +1 week from pylex, which in hindsight was a mistake but forgot to add the triclopyr when pylex went down.


I have done this in an unplanned way. One potential issue with this approach is that when tenacity injuries the bermuda, it may be harder for Pylex to do its job.


----------



## Old Hickory

stevehollx said:


> Anyone ever use a round of Tenacity in the height of summer...


I'm staying away from doing anything that might harm the fescue in the summer. My fall/spring apps on Bermuda control are still looking good so I don't want to mess with the plan.


----------



## DocV

What really seemed to suppress the bermuda in my lawn was heavily overseeding in the fall after the Pylex regimen. I overseeded at 9 lbs./1000 sqft. I still have some bermuda but I would say I went from 35-40% in the lawn to 2%.


----------



## YardWork314

Would this approach work for controlling bermudagrass in TTTF before overseeding? Use 2 applications of pylex+triclopyr during the hot part of late summer/early fall, and then use ornamec (fluazifop) as the third application when the weather is cooler. I don't have much Pylex left, so I'm hoping the Ornamec might be a cheaper option to finish off the bermudagrass treatment. Any thoughts?


----------



## VALawnNoob

After Ornamec, you still need to wait 14 days before you can put down seeds. However, with Pylex you can do it on the same day. There's advantage with using Pylex for that last app IMO


----------



## DocV

@YardWork314 If you are going to use fluazifop, use it for your first or second app in combination with triclopyr. This way you can use Pylex for the last app and seed immediately.


----------



## YardWork314

VALawnNoob said:


> After Ornamec, you still need to wait 14 days before you can put down seeds. However, with Pylex you can do it on the same day. There's advantage with using Pylex for that last app IMO


That's a good point. Thanks.


----------



## YardWork314

DocV said:


> @YardWork314 If you are going to use fluazifop, use it for your first or second app in combination with triclopyr. This way you can use Pylex for the last app and seed immediately.


Thanks for the response. You make a good point about seeding immediately. My only concern about using ornamec on the second app was heat. I know the label mentions that it is best to not use in hot/dry conditions. Thought using on the last application might make it a little cooler since it would be later in the season. Is that a concern in your opinion?


----------



## VALawnNoob

If you are overseeding anyways I wouldn't worry about a lil herbicide burn even if it happens.


----------



## DocV

@YardWork314 spray right after the sun goes down (during dusk) and that should help mitigate some of the herbicide burn that might occur.


----------



## YardWork314

DocV said:


> @YardWork314 spray right after the sun goes down (during dusk) and that should help mitigate some of the herbicide burn that might occur.


I'll do that. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## stevehollx

I sprayed 3 rounds of triclopyr + pylex starting 15-Jun on what I think is Nimblewill and not Bermuda in TTTF. It has gotten really stressed and killed off about 50% of the surrounding TTTF and the nimblewill is still standing (white/brown but some have a green stalk on the lowest section).

The more I look at it, I think it was too heavy, and too early in summer (I started early intentionally to control the summer spread of it). Recently I sprayed tenacity only on a spot just over my border where a neighbor has a clump of it, and that seems to be a lot more friendly in the heat and also a bit more effective than pylex. At this point anything else I spot is getting another Tenacity app in 2 weeks, and then the entire lawn will get two blankets more of it in Sep/Oct with overseeding.

If I did it again, or need to for next year, I think I'd do just tenacity apps on it starting 15-Jul.

I'm seeding in 5 weeks anyway so it isn't a big deal to be aggressive now, other than the spots which are also in the front lawn looking really beat. Aggressive tactics in the front lawn for me this year with both gly on 1M of Triv in the spring and then hitting the Nimblewill.


----------



## ergray3

First app in my second year of 1ml Pylex and 0.75oz triclopyr/M down last night 8/2, GDD10C of 1403. I saw a recommendation for MSO on the Pylex supplemental label when I was mixing, I didn't have any on hand. Has anyone else used MSO and noticed a difference?


----------



## Old Hickory

ergray3 said:


> First app in my second year of 1ml Pylex and 0.75oz triclopyr/M down last night 8/2, GDD10C of 1403. I saw a recommendation for MSO on the Pylex supplemental label when I was mixing, I didn't have any on hand. Has anyone else used MSO and noticed a difference?


I don't have an answer to your question but I'm watching you as I plan to wait a few weeks before beginning my second-year apps. What little bermuda I still have is growing faster/taller so it's easy to find and I'm pulling it out. My blanket spraying can wait.


----------



## DocV

@ergray3 I use Dyne-Amic MSO with good results. It is a hybrid MSO with surfactant properties. I use it as an surfactant or MSO when called for by the product.


----------



## Grass Clippins

***Copy and Paste from my Journal***

First round of Pylex and Triclopyr last night 8/6/2021

1 gallon of water per 1000 square feet
1.0 mL of Pylex per 1000 square feet
0.735 fl oz of Triclopyr per 1000 sq ft
1.28 fl oz of MSO per 1000 square feet (1% v/v)

This was my first of three applications that will be spaced out three weeds apart. Three weeks after the third application I'll overseed. From what I read, triclopyr is reason behind waiting three weeks to overseed after last application. Although common bermuda isn't invading my entire lawn I did a blanket application vs spot spraying per the label instructions. It's not going to rain for a few days and I will make sure to not mow 2 days before/after application.

Here is a picture of some Bermuda that I've let tiller out onto the driveways. Fully stretched it's 27.5 inches. I'm going to leave it as is to watch it die.


Here is a picture of a heavily Bermuda infested patch. I will monitor this as well.


----------



## VALawnNoob

Subscribed to your journal to see if you can control that thriving Bermuda .. best of luck :fight:


----------



## Grass Clippins

@VALawnNoob Thanks. It should be interesting, I'm willing to take this all the way to kill the common Bermuda. I just bought two years worth of overseed, seed shortage be damned.


----------



## DocV

@Grass Clippins you can skip the triclopyr for the third app of Pylex and seed the next day. What really helps crowd out the bermuda (and weeds) is a heavy overseeding rate. I used 9 lbs./M and have very little bermuda and weeds. In fact I have not had to spray for any weeds but will this weekend.


----------



## ergray3

DocV said:


> @Grass Clippins you can skip the triclopyr for the third app of Pylex and seed the next day. What really helps crowd out the bermuda (and weeds) is a heavy overseeding rate. I used 9 lbs./M and have very little bermuda and weeds. In fact I have not had to spray for any weeds but will this weekend.


Did you notice increasing fungus pressure with that rate? I put 25lbs of seed down on 3.25sqft last year. We've had a wet July and I'm unable to prevent brown blades it seems. I probably should've been better about the prevention schedule but I wonder if it's too thick to dry out well…


----------



## DocV

I did not get a lot of fungus but some. I plan to go at the normal TTTF overseed rate this year.


----------



## Grass Clippins

@DocV I'm just going to send it with triclopyr in all three application, might as well. I'm scheduled to overseed late mid October which is what I usual do because the hurricanes have mostly moved out by then. Last year I wasn't able to overseed at all because of a health issue and I think that might have actually helped a little with disease this year. But it's hard to tell because we've had favorable weather. So many variable in turf management it's hard to tell what to blame or credit for what.


----------



## Old Hickory

DocV said:


> I did not get a lot of fungus but some. I plan to go at the normal TTTF overseed rate this year.


Hey @DocV this is off-subject but how do you juggle "the normal TTTF overseed rate" with a fall pre-em? Or do you use pre-em in the fall? Thanks


----------



## rockinmylawn

So I wanted to spot treat the wiregrass aka Bermuda in my yard This weekend with Pylex + MSO + Triclopyr.

Wanted to manage my expectations & planning as I am looking @ thunderstorms all weekend.

Is rain a deal killer here for my app plans?


----------



## DocV

@rockinmylawn it is best if it does not rain for 12-24 hours after application


----------



## DocV

@Old Hickory I do not use pre-em in the fall. If I do I will use mesotrione so I can overseed.


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## Grass Clippins

@rockinmylawn label recommends 24 hrs. Also no mowing two days before and after application.


----------



## ergray3

Anyone ever add a dash of AMS to their Pylex app for improved foliar uptake?


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## DocV

@ergray3 I thought about adding it since I just picked some up but according to this paper from Purdue it may not be needed for Pylex or triclopyr ester (http://www.seminar.asianturfgrass.com/stmia17/patton_ph_water_hardness_handout.pdf).


----------



## ergray3

DocV said:


> @ergray3 I thought about adding it since I just picked some up but according to this paper from Purdue it may not be needed for Pylex or triclopyr ester (http://www.seminar.asianturfgrass.com/stmia17/patton_ph_water_hardness_handout.pdf).


Thanks @DocV!


----------



## rockinmylawn

Grass Clippins said:


> @rockinmylawn label recommends 24 hrs. Also no mowing two days before and after application.





DocV said:


> @rockinmylawn it is best if it does not rain for 12-24 hours after application


Thank you both. Will have time it perfectly this weekend if I go for it.

As far as air temperature is there any temp limits esp. when Triclopyr is included in the mix?


----------



## DocV

@rockinmylawn Triclopyr should be included in the first 2 Pylex applications, see my post at the beginning of this thread. Triclopyr in its ester form is quite volatile so I spray it just before sunset to minimize its vapor drift.


----------



## rockinmylawn

DocV said:


> @rockinmylawn Triclopyr should be included in the first 2 Pylex applications, see my post at the beginning of this thread. Triclopyr in its ester form is quite volatile so I spray it just before sunset to minimize its vapor drift.


re: Triclopyr - So no worry about temperature but more about wind - true?


----------



## DocV

Volatility and wind drift are two different things. You can get drift of the spray from wind but volatile chemicals like triclopyr ester form a vapor at lower temperatures which can disburse either as a vapor and by the wind. At higher temps like 80F+ triclopyr ester forms a vapor just from the increased temp. Long story short with triclopyr ester you need to worry about both wind and temp.


----------



## Old Hickory

ergray3 said:


> I used fenoxaprop instead of fluazifop since fenoxaprop was available inexpensively in diluted form from HD via BioAdvanced Bermudagrass control. I added triclopyr as well.


@ergray3 How did you mix the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Control with the triclopyr and did you find it effective?

I don't know how I missed this but the Ornamec product (Fluazifop) is not to be used with KBG.


----------



## ergray3

Old Hickory said:


> @ergray3 How did you mix the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Control with the triclopyr and did you find it effective?
> 
> I don't know how I missed this but the Ornamec product (Fluazifop) is not to be used with KBG.


I sprayed fenoxaprop and 0.75oz/M of triclopyr the day we hit GDD10C 200. Mixed with water carrier at 1g/M, nothing else.

Double check my math but if I recall correctly the BioAdvanced bottle was 32 oz and labelled for 4000 sqft total coverage. I figured out the concentration of AI on the BioAdvanced product vs the recommended rate of the Acclaim Extra (trade name for pro concentrated fenoxaprop) and it worked out that 8oz of the BioAdvanced product was the same AI as recommended for 1000sqft on the Acclaim Extra label. I measured out enough for 1.5k from the bottle and put it in my backpack sprayer (it comes in one of those hose end bottles but that unscrews, I ignored that particular warning on the label haha). When I sprayed, I treated the ~1.5k area worst affected the previous year by memory, the Bermuda had not grown enough to be visible in the TTTF canopy. Later in the summer, that area very clearly outperformed the adjacent area only treated by fall Pylex/triclopyr. I estimate control rates in the spring treated vs non treated area to be about 90% vs 50-60%. This is anecdotal unfortunately, so YMMV, but I think it was very effective.

Next spring I will apply to the entire yard instead of just the worst area. I might go ahead and purchase a bottle of acclaim as multiple sprayings of bio advanced will quickly eat into the upfront cost savings and my neighbor's common Bermuda isn't going anywhere. I'll keep posting my results!


----------



## DocV

@ergray3 you nailed it. As you saw the math is a bit complicated, and will bring flashbacks to high school chemistry, because Bayer Bermudagrass Control for Lawns is more dilute than Acclaim Extra (the commercial product). This paper by the University of Tennessee on controlling bermuda in fescue lawns recommends 20-28 oz Acclaim Extra per acre (https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W237.pdf). You need to find the total concentration of active ingredient (ai), which is fenoxaprop, of Acclaim Extra per 1000 sq.ft. and then apply that amount of the diluted Bayer product to get the same ai concentration/M (I will abbreviate 1000 sq.ft. as M). Here are links to the labels for each product and their concentration is on the label https://www.environmentalscience.ba...y/product-labels/acclaim-extra-herbicide.ashx and https://www.bioadvanced.com/sites/d...d0a4280ad2038c4e978ffb4e36613a53a40165f19.pdf).

First convert to the concentration of Acclaim Extra from gal to oz: 0.57 lb. ai Acclaim Extra/gal (from label) x 1 gal/128oz = 0.00445 lb. ai/oz

Now convert 20-28 oz/A to oz/M: 20 oz/A x 1A/43.50M = 0.459 oz/M to 28 oz/A x 1A/43.56M = 0.643 oz/M

Calc the lb. ai required/M: 0.459 oz/M x 0.00445 lb. ai/oz = 0.00204 lb. ai/M to 0.643 oz/M x 0.00445 lb. ai/oz = 0.00286 lb. ai/M. This is the concentration range of fenoxaprop needed per 1000 sq.ft. per the UT article.

Now calc the amount of Bayer product it takes to achieve that concentration of fenoxaprop/M. The Bayer product's concentration is 0.035 lb. ai/gal so convert this to lb. ai/oz as follows:

0.035 lb. ai/gal x 1 gal/128 oz = 0.000273 lb. ai/oz

Lastly calc the amount of Bayer product required to achieve the concentration range of ai from the UT paper:
0.00204 lb. ai/M x 1 oz/0.000273 lb. ai/oz Bayer product = 7.47 oz Bayer product/M
0.00286 lb. ai/M x 1 oz/0.000273 lb. ai/oz Bayer product = 10.48 oz Bayer product/M

So you need to apply 7.5 - 10.5 oz of Bayer Bermudagrass Control for Lawns per 1000 sq.ft of lawn in order to achieve the rate UT recommends. I had some previous bottles of this stuff so I opened them and used a backpack spray to apply this amount along with triclopyr.


----------



## DocV

@ergray3 if you have TTTF, it is cheaper to buy fluazifop than Acclaim Extra. I use fluazifop/triclopyr at the GDD10C date.


----------



## ergray3

DocV said:


> @ergray3 if you have TTTF, it is cheaper to buy fluazifop than Acclaim Extra. I use fluazifop/triclopyr at the GDD10C date.


Good to know, I have TTTF in the front and new KBG in the back. There are currently a few Bermuda plants in the back but I've just been hand pulling them. I'll see how it looks once the winter comes and I'll have to make a decision based on the back yard. I'm hoping I can get the KBG to thicken and outcompete before next summer.


----------



## rockinmylawn

DocV said:


> Volatility and wind drift are two different things. You can get drift of the spray from wind but volatile chemicals like triclopyr ester form a vapor at lower temperatures which can disburse either as a vapor and by the wind. At higher temps like 80F+ triclopyr ester forms a vapor just from the increased temp. Long story short with triclopyr ester you need to worry about both wind and temp.


Thank you @DocV for your patient feedback.

Looks like my plans are delayed this weekend due to rain.

Which pushed everything back on overseeding.

Going to be tight this year.


----------



## rockinmylawn

@DocV 
Can we do aeration after the 3rd app?


----------



## g-man

Do you want to spread the Bermuda to the rest of the lawn?


----------



## DocV

@rockinmylawn I did aeration a week before my 3rd app in the first year of application and did not see any bermuda spread but it can happen so if you want to be careful wait until the 3rd app of your second year of Pylex.


----------



## VALawnNoob

g-man said:


> Do you want to spread the Bermuda to the rest of the lawn?


My bermuda problem is dissipating but I swear last fall's core aeration is contributing to my triv problems this spring. and no i did not pick up my cores nor did i apply tenacity as part of my overseeding


----------



## YardWork314

DocV said:


> @YardWork314 If you are going to use fluazifop, use it for your first or second app in combination with triclopyr. This way you can use Pylex for the last app and seed immediately.


Just an update. This plan of using pylex on the 1st application, ornamec and triclopyr on 2nd, and pylex as the 3rd seems to be working well so far. I have completed the first two applications in the sequence, and the Bermuda is mostly brown while the fescue is still looking strong. I will wait 2-3 weeks before the final pylex application. Thanks for the information you provided.


----------



## edixon88

Welp, this summer completely got away from me and I just realized I want to overseed either next weekend or the following weekend. Doing the backyard this weekend, but no Bermuda issues there. Way too late for the full pylex/triclopyr schedule and didn't want to risk triclopyr affecting the overseed so I sprayed pylex this afternoon. Hopefully it's better than nothing.


----------



## edixon88

edixon88 said:


> Welp, this summer completely got away from me and I just realized I want to overseed either next weekend or the following weekend. Doing the backyard this weekend, but no Bermuda issues there. Way too late for the full pylex/triclopyr schedule and didn't want to risk triclopyr affecting the overseed so I sprayed pylex this afternoon. Hopefully it's better than nothing.


That pylex app gave me some serious bleaching


----------



## VALawnNoob

What weed is it lighting up or is that your grass?


----------



## edixon88

VALawnNoob said:


> What weed is it lighting up or is that your grass?


It's whatever I've been fighting since last year.. bermuda, torpedo or quack


----------



## dleonard11122

I'm considering trying to suppress/control the Bermuda that is spreading throughout my TTTF lawn next year. On hand, I have Gordon's Ornamec Over-The-Top which is 6.75% Fluazifop-P-butyl.

Reading the label under Section 3.2 'Bermudagrass control In Tall Fescue', I find their recommendation to be to apply at 0.4-0.5 oz/M and at 14-21 day intervals. The way I'm interpreting that, it's a 0.027 oz/M - 0.034 oz/M application of the AI Fluazifop. Is my math correct here?

This seems significantly less than what @DocV references at the beginning of this thread at 0.14 oz/M.

I'm not sure if that can be explained by the more repeated frequency of applications recommended in the Gordon's product label?


----------



## DocV

@dleonard11122 the amounts on the OOTP are per application not per season. The amount of fluazifop in OOTP is 4x less than that in Fusilade II (the product I cite in my post and used in the UT Tenn study). OOTP has 0.5 lbs. fluazifop per gallon and Fusilade II contains 2 lbs. per gallon. To adjust for the lower concentration you need to use 4x more OOTP per 1000 sq.ft. Technically OOTP applies slightly less fluazifop than Fusilade II. These amounts result in an application of fluazifop equal to roughly 0.00219 lbs. fluazifop per 1000 sq.ft.

I should probably update my post to cite Fusilade II as the product used and not OOTP.


----------



## dleonard11122

@DocV Thanks, I think it would make sense to update just for clarity of if we are talking rates of a product (Fusilade II/Ornamec Over-The-Top) or rates of an AI (Fluazifop/Topremezone)

I tried accessing some of the UT studies you linked, but it appears they require login credentials.

So you think it should be fine to apply the Gordon's Ornamec Over-The-Top at a higher rate? 2 oz/M would be roughly the same rate of AI as what the Fusillade is putting down at a 0.5 oz/M.


----------



## DocV

@dleonard11122 the 0.5 and 2.0 is not the application rate but the amount of active ingredient per gallon. You should apply the amount recommended on the OOTP label (0.4-0.5 oz/M).


----------



## dleonard11122

@DocV are you sure?

This is from the Fusillade II label:



> Apply 16-24 fl oz/A (0.4 - 0.6 fl oz/1,000 sq ft) of Fusilade II Turf and Ornamental Herbicide in sufficient water along with 0.25% (1/2 pt/25 gal) of a nonionic surfactant.


Assuming we go with 0.5 fl oz/M, at 24.5% Fluazifop that is .1225 fl oz/M of the AI.

The OOTP label also prescribes a 0.5 FL oz/M rate, but it's only 6.75% Fluazifop, so only .0338 FL oz/M of the AI.

It seems to me that the OOTP is diluted compared to the Fusillade II, yet they both have the same recommended application rate.

What am I missing here?


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## DocV

@dleonard11122 the 16-24 oz/A is not for the treatment of bermudagrass in TTTF but as a weed herbicide. Look further down on the label to the section titled "GRASS WEED CONTROL IN DESIRABLE TURFGRASS". It recommends 3-6 oz/A (0.069 - 0.14 oz/M).


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## dleonard11122

@DocV ah that is it. Sorry about that and thank you for pointing it out. Now the math matches up.


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## DocV

@dleonard11122 no problem and good luck. The Fusilade II label is a bit confusing because it does not specifically cite bermuda grass as a grassy weed but generally refers to all grassy weeds (e.g. dallas, orchard, bermuda, Johnson)


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## ergray3

ergray3 said:


> Today we hit GDD10C 200 in Chattanooga. I did a three app round of Pylex last fall, which seems to have worked pretty well, although the bermuda around here is just now waking up and would admittedly be hard to see beneath my TTTF. I thought I would try Doc's hybrid approach this year; do a spring application and see if there was improved effectiveness through this season. I used fenoxaprop instead of fluazifop since fenoxaprop was available inexpensively in diluted form from HD via BioAdvanced Bermudagrass control. I added triclopyr as well. As it stands, I'm planning on just the one spring application and then the three Pylex fall applications, but curious if others are doing multiple early applications of fluazifop/fenoxaprop in addition to a Pylex regimen? The way I understood the paper about the timing, additional spring treatments didn't significantly increase control, but perhaps I misunderstood?
> 
> My neighbor has common Bermuda so I know I'll never eradicate it, but if I can get down to just annually spraying my border with his yard, I'll be content.


For any interested in follow up, I took some pictures of the fenoxaprop treated vs untreated areas after 3 blankets of pylex. You can see that the area near the neighbor's Bermuda is in much better shape than the area further away nearer the mailbox (no fenoxaprop). I just put in a drainage pipe between the yards so there's a strip of dirt at the property line. I'm about 5 days away from overseed, ready to get rid of this spotted lawn!


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## lpd4321

I have done two applications of pylex (1ML) and triclopyr (0.5 oz) with MSO in 1 gallon of water on my lawn. Here are pictures of what the lawn looked like on July 9th and then how it looks now after doing two apps of pylex/triclopyr.

This is my 2nd year of doing pylex apps and it seems like my fescue takes a good beating from these apps. Are others seeing similar amount of damage to their fescue? I did have some mole issues so not sure if the mole damaged the fescue or if its triclopyr/pylex apps. This years results are similar to what I saw last year.


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## Slkching28

lpd4321 said:


> I have done two applications of pylex (1ML) and triclopyr (0.5 oz) with MSO in 1 gallon of water on my lawn. Here are pictures of what the lawn looked like on July 9th and then how it looks now after doing two apps of pylex/triclopyr.
> 
> This is my 2nd year of doing pylex apps and it seems like my fescue takes a good beating from these apps. Are others seeing similar amount of damage to their fescue? I did have some mole issues so not sure if the mole damaged the fescue or if its triclopyr/pylex apps. This years results are similar to what I saw last year.


I get similar result with fusillade. What I'm planning to do take picture where I see Bermuda now. Hit it in spring, so it isn't stressing out the fescue. Since it's hard to see Bermuda in spring, that's why I take pics. I am not sure how that will work?!?!


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## lpd4321

> I get similar result with fusillade. What I'm planning to do take picture where I see Bermuda now. Hit it in spring, so it isn't stressing out the fescue. Since it's hard to see Bermuda in spring, that's why I take pics. I am not sure how that will work?!?!


Does your fescue comes back? Mine is browned up in these areas. I am not sure if it is completely dead or if it has any chance of greening up again.

I even lowered the amount of triclopyr this year but same result.


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## Slkching28

lpd4321 said:


> I get similar result with fusillade. What I'm planning to do take picture where I see Bermuda now. Hit it in spring, so it isn't stressing out the fescue. Since it's hard to see Bermuda in spring, that's why I take pics. I am not sure how that will work?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Does your fescue comes back? Mine is browned up in these areas. I am not sure if it is completely dead or if it has any chance of greening up again.
> 
> I even lowered the amount of triclopyr this year but same result.
Click to expand...

I thought triclopyr suppose to reduce injury from fusillade?!?! It's still yellow, but not brown yet, so I hope it can recover later into the fall. I did sprayed it while it was 90F, because I didn't know there was Bermuda until summer came.


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## stevehollx

lpd4321 said:


> I get similar result with fusillade. What I'm planning to do take picture where I see Bermuda now. Hit it in spring, so it isn't stressing out the fescue. Since it's hard to see Bermuda in spring, that's why I take pics. I am not sure how that will work?!?!
> 
> 
> 
> Does your fescue comes back? Mine is browned up in these areas. I am not sure if it is completely dead or if it has any chance of greening up again.
> 
> I even lowered the amount of triclopyr this year but same result.
Click to expand...

I toasted quite a bit of fescue this summer applying pylex+triclopyr. I think it is the triclopyr that is hard on the fescue in the summer. I did a pylex app alone in Aug after that, and didn't see additional stress on fescue. So try without the triclopyr next time, maybe. If I have to treat Nimblewill next year, I think I am just doing Pylex every 3 weeks starting 15-Jul, and then switching to two apps of Tenacity if anything is left.


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## rockinmylawn

lpd4321 said:


> I have done two applications of pylex (1ML) and triclopyr (0.5 oz) with MSO in 1 gallon of water on my lawn. Here are pictures of what the lawn looked like on July 9th and then how it looks now after doing two apps of pylex/triclopyr.
> 
> This is my 2nd year of doing pylex apps and it seems like my fescue takes a good beating from these apps. Are others seeing similar amount of damage to their fescue? I did have some mole issues so not sure if the mole damaged the fescue or if its triclopyr/pylex apps. This years results are similar to what I saw last year.


I did my first ever Pylex Triclopyr MSO cocktail 3 weeks ago & got the same results you have. Most likely has killed my TTTF; makes it look like I have bad brown patch. 
2nd app yesterday was Pylex by itself. 
Cross my fingers that overseeding in a few weeks will bring it back.


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## lpd4321

> I did my first ever Pylex Triclopyr MSO cocktail 3 weeks ago & got the same results you have. Most likely has killed my TTTF; makes it look like I have bad brown patch.
> 2nd app yesterday was Pylex by itself.
> Cross my fingers that overseeding in a few weeks will bring it back.


So sounds like the triclopyr and pylex combo is just an expensive and complicated way to round-up your fescue 

Next season I will just do pylex and skip the triclopyr.


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## VALawnNoob

I think it is very weather dependent when combining triclopyr with Pylex. If you have a rough stretch of heat during the growing season then I agree we should skip it. I have not had issues during my single Pylex app especially when applied during dusk and has regular irrigation.


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## Grass Clippins

I'm getting mild damage here north of Atlanta. We've had ideal weather otherwise I suspect it would be much worse. These apps are so close to reseeding that I'm not worried. I got lucky this year but over this multi year process I'm expecting to lose 50% to 75% my TTTF to get rid of the Bermuda.

@VALawnNoob I bought a Brinly 48" Pull Behind Rake to pry up these bermuda stollens before round 3. Hopefully I'll be able to get it done it time.


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## rockinmylawn

VALawnNoob said:


> I think it is very weather dependent when combining triclopyr with Pylex. If you have a rough stretch of heat during the growing season then I agree we should skip it. I have not had issues during my single Pylex app especially when applied during dusk and has regular irrigation.


@VALawnNoob -

I'm in Richmond & applied early September @ 7pm. So unless I oversprayed (ie going over the area several times), I really think the cocktail in the OP maybe too glypho like to my TTTF.


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## VALawnNoob

Grass Clippins said:


> @VALawnNoob I bought a Brinly 48" Pull Behind Rake to pry up these bermuda stollens before round 3. Hopefully I'll be able to get it done it time.


I think you are exactly right on this. I also saw dead grass laying down so needed to powerrake with tines b4 doing my final Pylex app and then overseed. I think I lost about 10% of good grass this year due to my apps. Last year with Fusillade + Triclopyr I was more 30% loss. Fall fert blitz will make those sparse areas look full again :thumbup:


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## Old Hickory

I decided to go with a single app of fenoxaprop and triclopr on August 23, in year two (two summers, one spring) of the suppression program. I went with fenoxaprop as it is not as harsh to use in summer and is approved for use on ***. Oddly, my backyard which is 100% TTTF was hurt somewhat by the application but my front yard which is JG Black Beauty Ultra was unaffected. So, I'm happy with those results.

In summary, I think if you have a Bermuda problem in a cool-season lawn with *** then the fenoxaprop and triclopyr mixture should be considered.


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## lpd4321

VALawnNoob said:


> I think it is very weather dependent when combining triclopyr with Pylex. If you have a rough stretch of heat during the growing season then I agree we should skip it. I have not had issues during my single Pylex app especially when applied during dusk and has regular irrigation.


Pylex only applications don't hurt my fescue. However, as I understand, pylex makes the tip of the grass blades turn white. So I wonder if pylex only application will just damage the tips and does nothing for the roots? If that's the case may be its better suited for the month of May when bermuda is just coming out of dormancy. What you guys think?


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## DocV

Pylex is systemic so it is not only the tips but the whole plant. Tricloyr is added primarily because it is also detrimental to bermudagrass but it has the added benefit of minimizing the whitening of the bermudagrass while still being toxic to the grass.


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## DocV

Just an update on my fight to suppress bermudagrass in my TTTF lawn. I followed my hybrid approach, see signature line, the first year and sprayed in spring and fall. In years 2 and 3, I only sprayed Pylex + triclopyr in the fall. Now I am at the start of the 4th year and there are no signs of bermudagrass in my TTTF. The only place is the 8ft section of lawn that boarders my neighbor's bermudagrass lawn. To stop it from spreading, in the fall I will just spray a line of Pylex + triclpyr there as a demilitarized zone. I plan to keep an eye on any reemergence of bermudagrass. Happy hunting and stay vigilant.


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## LawnChief19

Doc, I've been reading your thread over the winter as I and a friend/neighbor are attacking the devil's scourge known as bermuda this spring. I'm glad the thread is still active! I slacked off checking the GDD until recently. I was expecting 200 to be in a week or two. It just went from 197.5 (4/21) to 222.5 (4/22). We are spraying next weekend. This weekend it has been horrible for wind and couldn't spray even if we were prepared. I plan on using Fusillade II, triclopyr & MSO? this spring. Pylex, triclopyr & MSO in the fall like BASF lays out. I'm glad you have reported back that it IS possible to eradicate the stuff. I'm the geeky one and my friend is following my lead. We understand this is a multi year fight. I forget, did you spray in the spring after GDD 200? In the study spraying on GDD 450 had little effect? I'll report back in on our progress as this is quite a useful topic to some of us. The previous owner of my home did the old, gly the grass. "oh look it's brown" and plant fescue. (I don't think they even got 99%)


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## DocV

@LawnChief19 Yes, I have. I think the important point is to make sure your soil temps are above 65F for 3-5 days because this is when bermudagrass comes out of dormancy. I like to use the 5 day average at https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature. It is important that it is out of dormancy because herbicides are far less effective on dormant plants.

The purpose of the spring spraying is to injure the bermuda while it is gearing up for growing season thus slowing its spread also these are ideal growing temps for fescue so it can outgrow any stress from the herbicide. The fall spraying injures the bermuda as it tries to store nutrients and prep for dormancy thus stressing it over winter which further reduces its spread and viability. Good luck and keep up the fight, it can pay off.


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## LawnChief19

Yes I follow soil temps through the K-State Mesonet system. It has a wealth of info. There are stations close by me so I get an actual in location view on a lot of things we watch. As of today the 2" 7 day avg. is 57 deg and the 6" 7 day avg. is 56 deg. So that's what we'll monitor. 
So did you/ do you spray multiple times in the spring? Or is it a case as the days get hotter and the fescue stats to suffer or slow down growing a person doesn't want to stress it with the herbicide application another time. I plan on hitting it 3 times in the fall ( the max Pylex can be used) timing my 1st attack as to time it so the last of 3 is far enough away from my planned reseed date. Thanks again.


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## DocV

I only spray twice in the spring because when bermuda is growing optimum temps (about >80F) it can out grow herbicide injury even that from Pylex and these temps fescue could be harmed as you stated. You may be able to get 3 sprays if your climate allows but here in TN it gets too hot too fast.

In the fall the last application of Pylex does not contain triclopyr so you can seed immediately after application. Here the first app goes down in mid-August, the second app 21 days later and the third another 21 days later. The daytime temps through September are usually above 75F so still bermuda growing temps. Try to time it so the fall application timeframe overlaps the GDD10C dates in my original post since those showed the greatest effect on bermuda.


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## LawnChief19

I'm finally getting a window to apply my 1st application. Last weekend I had wind. We've had 2 1/2" of rain the last couple of days and I need to walk the grass to see how long before I can mow then spray. My 5 day avg dropped, it went from mid 60"s to now 57.2. I'm sure the warmth foretasted from today on out will bring it up to where I need it. I do have a question. The tryclopyr says to use a larger droplet size (I use an AIC ) while the Fusilade II calls for a smaller droplet size ( I use a XRC). It states: " For best results, don not use flood type or other spray nozzle tips which deliver coarse, large droplet sprays." That would rule out the AIC nozzle. I think the tryclopyr (from what I've read) is concerned about drift and vaporization. If there is very little or no breeze the XRC should get what I need done. Any thoughts? I have both.


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## LawnChief19

Today was one of those rare days in Kansas. It was as calm as you could want for spraying. I have 3 large weeping willow trees and not one of the weeping limbs was moving. I sprang into action. I'm going after bermuda mostly and a random clover spot. I see wild oats over by my edge which gets them from a field which is next to it. I hit the broadleaf weed a few weeks back with Lesco Three-Way and that did in most of the dandelions and such but I have seen a few new ones show their heads. I have a Northern 41 gallon sprayer that works out great for my lawn. I have approx an acre of fescue. (I've edited my profile to reflect the actual size) so this size sprayer works out great. I used 41 gallons of mixture. Fusilade II: 4.5 oz. Tryclopyr: 32 oz. MSO: 33 oz. and filled to 41 gallons. I sprayed with Tee Jet grey XRC nozzles. I can usually hit all of my lawn and just run out so that works out to just less than 1 gallon per 1K square feet, around .96 gallons per 1K. I'll update on the progress when noticable.


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## Grass Clippins

Sweet mother..... 30 oz of Impact went from $375 to $435. Not sure what Pylex was but 8 oz. is sold out at $495 on chemical warehouse.


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## ergray3

Grass Clippins said:


> Sweet mother..... 30 oz of Impact went from $375 to $435. Not sure what Pylex was but 8 oz. is sold out at $495 on chemical warehouse.


Try lawn and pest control supply (.com) for pylex. They have a 4 oz bottle and usually a 10% discount (review10). There's a per ounce premium over the 8oz bottle but unless you have a massive lawn or are a pro 4oz will last a long long time. I got it for $250 in 2020, probably inflated a bit since then.


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## DocV

The smaller bottle of Pylex can get you through 2-3 years of treatment so you probably don't need the larger Impact bottle.


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## DocV

@ergray3 is correct, Lawn and Pest Control Supply had the lowest prices when I purchased Pylex from them for $277 for the 4oz bottle.


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## Grass Clippins

DocV said:


> @ergray3 is correct, Lawn and Pest Control Supply had the lowest prices when I purchased Pylex from them for $277 for the 4oz bottle.


@ergray3

Thankfully I already bought what I needed last year so I'm good, but thank you for suggestion. My memory didn't serve me well...I thought 4 oz.'rs were lower than they were last year. Even at that price though Pylex is a solid herbicide, does a lot more than just kill Bermuda. I bought a bottle of Drive XLR8 to run with the Pylex in the spring but didn't get a chance to spray it. Maybe next year.


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## Lawn Noob

Ornamec works at my place for keeping Bermuda out of the fescue.


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## Slkching28

Might be a dumb question. How do you spot Bermuda grass within the fescue before the summer heat?? The fescue is much taller when the Bermuda is breaking out of dormancy. I only spot them in the middle of summer and it's too late to apply fusillade and triclopyr without killing the fescue.


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## DocV

In early spring I look for the stringy brown patches within the fescue. If you think you have any just go ahead and apply the Fusilade/triclopyr in late spring once the bermuda has greened up.


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## ergray3

Slkching28 said:


> Might be a dumb question. How do you spot Bermuda grass within the fescue before the summer heat?? The fescue is much taller when the Bermuda is breaking out of dormancy. I only spot them in the middle of summer and it's too late to apply fusillade and triclopyr without killing the fescue.


Not a dumb question. You basically either crawl on the ground or just remember from last year. I made the mistake of under treating and got burned in the summer time. I have 3250sqft of affected front yard and I just treat it all.


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## VALawnNoob

DocV said:


> In early spring I look for the stringy brown patches within the fescue. If you think you have any just go ahead and apply the Fusilade/triclopyr in late spring once the bermuda has greened up.


Agree with DocV. Now that I know what to look for I can spot Bermuda dormant or thriving. However, it isn't easy and if you know where the patches are then just get in there and look beneath the canopy. The first app in late spring is the safest so I wouldn't delay it as it pushes everything back rest of the growing season.


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## moedank

"You had my curiosity, but now you have my attention." ---> This is how my attitude has shifted toward the neighbor's intrusion of wild bermuda in his fescue lawn as it spreads closer to mine.

Luckily, he's on board to fight this devil grass with me. I recently ordered a battery powered sprayer, Fusilade II, Triclopyr and a NIS. Probably won't have everything until the very end of May or early June. Is it too late to do a spray or should I wait until late summer/fall? I'm in 6b.

Has anyone noticed any difference with bermuda's spreadability based upon the fescue's height of cut?


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## macattack

I am on the fence of whether I should do a complete renovation of my backyard, or go the Pylex/triclopyr or Fusilade II/triclopyr route. The yard needs levelling, and has so much zoysia/bermuda/K-31 a complete renovation seems obvious, except for how much work it is. I need to build a cost spreadsheet soon. Maybe 4000 sq ft. 
I prefer the cheapest and easiest route, which is of course do nothing. I feel the bermuda wont be killed off anyways, and will need future maintenance treatments to keep it at bay, as the neighbors yards have both bermuda and zoysia issues also.


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## LawnChief19

So it's been 28 days since I sprayed. My fescue never appeared stressed and did just fine. Clover, other broadleafs and the grassy weeds randomly in the yard were killed off. Knowing how it could devastate anything in the flower beds I gave them a wide berth. I wasn't thinking and proceeded like normal spraying under my weeping willows as I made my passes. The lowest hanging parts were killed off. No biggie. I sometimes trim them anyway if they get too annoying. I came back and used my backpack to hit those areas and other areas where it's hard to maneuver my trailer sprayer into. There are a few areas in a few beds where Bermuda is visible so I made sure I hit it well as I was going around. I never saw that bleached or very stressed as far as I could tell. I know when I sprayed the idea and intention is just to weaken and rob the Bermuda of growing time not necessarily to kill it. My friend was about 2 week later and has similar results. Maybe slightly stressed grass but I haven't been over to see in person. So should I go ahead and spray one last time with the Fusilade II + tryclopyr + MSO before the late summer Pylex +try + MSO treatments? My average 5 day ground temp is 67 deg and per Greencast 892 GDD. We've had tons of rain (9" in last 10 days or so) and temps have been mild vs normally. Hit it one more time is my thinking if I can dodge rain.


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## Grass Clippins

Grass Clippins said:


> I'm getting mild damage here north of Atlanta. We've had ideal weather otherwise I suspect it would be much worse. These apps are so close to reseeding that I'm not worried. I got lucky this year but over this multi year process I'm expecting to lose 50% to 75% my TTTF to get rid of the Bermuda.
> 
> @VALawnNoob I bought a Brinly 48" Pull Behind Rake to pry up these bermuda stollens before round 3. Hopefully I'll be able to get it done it time.


I think I made my Bermuda issue significantly worse by using a pull behind rake last year. Anyhow...live and learn. For anyone who's thinking about raking/lifting the stolons up for better herbicide action, don't do it.


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## macattack

Getting ready to hit the bermuda with Fusilade II. Should i even care if it is still hot out? Probably not, this is in the backyard and no one but me will see damage, if any. Lawn not stressed after 9 " of rain last 30 days or so. One more day of heat, then cool down. Transplanting zoysia into the bermuda also with a pro plugger.


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## Lawn Noob

I'm waiting until late august to spray my problem bermuda again with Ornamec and triclopyr.


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## moedank

I have had a good response so far suppressing/killing common bermuda with topramezone, triclopyr and NIS mixed together with an auger drill bit. Topramezone is the active ingredient in Pylex, which is too expensive for me. Thus, I use the cheaper Roundup Crabgrass Destroyer. It has 128oz with 0.0092% topramezone so that equals 1.17oz.

Pylex instructions suggest 0.023 to 0.034oz (0.7 to 1.0mL) of topramezone per 1ksqft.

1.17oz / 0.034oz = 34.6. This means you scan spray 1ksqft almost 35 times with the higher dose rate. This is a great cheap alternative.

Below is a pic of round 1 of 3. This area was sprayed about two weeks ago. The bermuda is turning brown and the fescue seems to be handling it well, even after a period of heat/drought stress. It took well over a week for the bermuda to start looking stressed.


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## macattack

The Fusilade II is working really well on my common bermuda. This was after 12 days. 4 mL to a gallon with NIS. It looks much worse now, particularly after dethatching the area. It really ripped the stolons up. I can't tell if there is collateral damage, as there is so much bermuda, and after the dethatch. It didn't seem so in this picture.



Where I unintentionally transplanted it alongside the house when building garden beds.


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