# Winter fertilizer



## ThomasTTTF (Jul 12, 2021)

What is best in the Midwest before winter?
Fast release? Slow release?
Or a combination of both?
Spray or granular?

Thanks


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

ThomasTTTF said:


> What is best in the Midwest before winter?
> Fast release? Slow release?
> Or a combination of both?
> Spray or granular?
> ...


A fast release like ams or urea is best for fall fertilizers. Avoid slow release and high K fertilizers if possible


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

I usually go the the big box store and buy the cheapest fertilizer I can find. That usually means it has the lowest amount of slow release nitrogen in it and the highest fast release nitrogen content.

I still end up with around 15-20% slow release but its all thats available around here.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

I usually buy the highest percentage of nitrogen bag of fertilizer with the lowest % of slow release with the lowest K at any big box store and put down at rate recommend on bag. Simple no weighing of urea and works great for me


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

When this storm blows through I plan on laying down Lesco 18-0-12 with 50% slow release. Is this a good "winterizer" 
Soil test from late summer shows my lawn soil needs a lot of help. I have been working on those corrections
Of course I found the forum after my soil testing.
My lawn has come a long way since late spring. I would like to keep it going! Heres a few pictures so far. I hit the the jackpot this year. Weeds, Construction , fungi , poor soil


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

I have used Lesco 21-0-21(75% polyplus) as my winterizer app the last 2 years with decent results. This year I will be using 46-0-0 straight urea and will apply when the lawn stops growing which, for me, will be approx. Nov. 12-20. Current research indicates that fertilizers containing potassium should not be used as winterizers because they contribute to increased cases of snow mold. Personally, I have not experienced it. Pure luck I guess.


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## Big Boy Stan (Aug 27, 2020)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> Current research indicates that fertilizers containing potassium should not be used as winterizers because they contribute to increased cases of snow mold.


This has always confused me. I have read the above on this forum in several places, but every big name fertilizer that is marketed as "Winter" has some or even high amounts of K. Seems like both cant be right.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Big Boy Stan said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
> 
> 
> > Current research indicates that fertilizers containing potassium should not be used as winterizers because they contribute to increased cases of snow mold.
> ...


Because they are good at marketing. Marking something with Spring, Summer, Fall and Winter on the bags makes the average person believe they have to buy all 4 bags.

There are University studies that show late K apps can increase the risk of snow mold. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, just that it increases the risk. Leaving your grass long going into Winter also increases the chance.

Regardless, I would stick with a fast release source like Urea.

At the end of the day, Snow Mold is easy to get rid of and typically doesn't damage the lawn. But why add more potential work in the Spring when you can help avoid it.


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## ThomasTTTF (Jul 12, 2021)

Harts said:


> Big Boy Stan said:
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> > Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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Can you spray the urea or is granular best for winter?
And if spray is best, water it in as well?

Thanks


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

Harts said:


> Big Boy Stan said:
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> > Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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I also read that high levels of N can also contribute to snow mold. If you have snow cover for an extended period of time, I think you're going to get snow mold no matter what. If you do get it, rake the impacted areas as soon as the snow melts and it should recover just fine. At that point after a long winter you're probably looking for something to do outside.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

Big Boy Stan said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
> 
> 
> > Current research indicates that fertilizers containing potassium should not be used as winterizers because they contribute to increased cases of snow mold.
> ...


While I agree with Harts here. Keep in mind, that before I knew better, I was using a Lesco 21-0-21 product as my winterizer for last 2 years and never got snow mold. It could've just been dumb luck maybe. Also, I have never read the research myself, per se, but have read a lot about others bad experiences and it always seemed to coincide with the use of high K fertikizers late in the fall. I choose not to roll the dice any longer. I have lurked here and on other forums for a very long time before joining or posting. I hope this helps.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

ThomasTTTF said:


> Can you spray the urea or is granular best for winter?
> And if spray is best, water it in as well?
> 
> Thanks


In all my research, I have come to the conclusion, the only thing I will spray is iron[in regards to lawn food].


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> ThomasTTTF said:
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> > Can you spray the urea or is granular best for winter?
> ...


I think you are missing out on mid summer turf color if you only fertilize with granular. Low foliar N doses every couple of weeks has worked well for me when I can't apply heavier granular apps mid summer.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> ThomasTTTF said:
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> > Can you spray the urea or is granular best for winter?
> ...


Pgr, cytogro, as well as low doses of N, would be a few beneficial foliar applied products you'd be missing out on.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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> > ThomasTTTF said:
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 I'm not a fan of low mowed KBG. It looks a bit wonky to me. At least, mine does. Perhaps it's because I mow at 4.25" all season until mid-October and it's not trained? I'll pass on the pgr. 
I never understood foliar applications of N. That's not how the plant eats. It seems like it would be like putting someone on an IV for the rest if thier life. Simply unnatural. Btw, I did say "lawn food". I spray herbicides and some pesticides. Luckily enough, I have never used a fungicide in my life but reckon if I do, it might be sprayed.

What's cytogro?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You don't have to like low cut turf to appreciate the benefits of foliar N. The nutrient gets into the plant immediately and you get a small boost of colour. Add some iron to the mix and you have liquid gold.

We all have different styles. I don't like tall cut grass. Looks messy and unkempt to me, but I appreciate that you might like it.

The point is there's more than one way to get the turf you want.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

I have a bag of Jonathan Greene Winter Survival 10-0-20 ready to go for my last application around November 7th, along with maybe a bag of milorganite like substance I have lying around. Comes out to 0.56#/1k N total. Granular all the way. We hardly get any snow, its gone in a week or less when it does. My final mow last year was mid December. I put down Scotts 32-0-10 last year. The lawn came out of winter fantastic once the deep freeze lifted, and was mowing in late March. I must be doing something right. A spreadsheet really helps plan this out, I strongly recommend it.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> jha4aamu said:
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> > Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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Id say things such as pgr could be considered just as much a plant "food" as supplemental iron. Pgr even provides benefits aside from just esthetics.

The plant absolutely "eats" by foliar uptake. Prior to oct, 99% of my N was applied foliarly. Using your iv analogy, the comparison would be delivering a dose of medication via iv (foliar) vs orally (soil applied) IV delivery bypasses less efficient areas of uptake and provides a more immediate response.

Also, I've had a few discussions with dr soldat regarding the efficacy of pgr and his research indicates that pgr is actual MORE effective in higher cut turf vs low, reel mowed turf


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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> > jha4aamu said:
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Plants require iron to survive therefore it is food. They do NOT require pgr therefore it is not food. Period. I'm not going to argue with you on this. 


jha4aamu said:


> The plant absolutely "eats" by foliar uptake. Prior to oct, 99% of my N was applied foliarly. Using your iv analogy, the comparison would be delivering a dose of medication via iv (foliar) vs orally (soil applied) IV delivery bypasses less efficient areas of uptake and provides a more immediate response.


 Again, people can "eat" through an IV. Does that mean you should do it? Do farmers spray thier watermelons or do they inject liquid nitrogen into the soil? Personally, I think it takes more time and effort to spray than to spread with little to no benefit. An immediate response doesn't equal best case scenario. I think the reason a lot of people spray is because they lack an easy way to water in thier applications. I have irrigation so i just let the system do the work. I'm not saying it doesn't work. Obviously, it works for you and I'm sure you have a beautiful lawn. I'm not doubting your results. It just isn't for me. Call me old school I guess :beer: 


jha4aamu said:


> Also, I had a few discussions with dr soldat regarding the efficacy of pgr and his research indicates that pgr is actual MORE effective in higher cut turf vs low, reel mowed turf


 What is cytogro and what are the benefits of pgr on high cut KBG?


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## BigBlue (Aug 27, 2021)

ThomasTTTF said:


> Harts said:
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> > Big Boy Stan said:
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The discussion is a good one and these guys are more experienced than I am on this topic. However, to the original question "Can you spray...". The answer is yes. It may not be better and some may argue it's not even as good, but you can spray it if you want to.

I've asked this same question here, and had a similar healthy debate. For me, I was convinced that spraying the fertilizer was an effective delivery method irrespective of the foliar uptake debate. If you water the application in the fertilizer will enter the soil; and if you leave it on the leaf a few hours before watering it in, then you'll likely gain the benefit of both methods of delivery as has been described here.

I spray my Urea and other fertilizer products when spoon feeding and when blitzing. It allows me to evenly distribute, avoids any spottiness that might occur in a granular app of small quantities, provides me a very precise application method and I'm seeing good results. Weighing and mixing takes me very little extra time, and I'm very confident that every inch of the lawn is getting a good application even in the irregularly shaped areas.

So if you are comfortable and/or enjoy spraying, you will not be alone in choosing this application type. Bottom line as has been mentioned here, it's in large part a matter of preference and personal experience and success.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> jha4aamu said:
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> > Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
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The operative word was "supplemental". Your soil contains iron, your additional application of iron provides little benefit other than esthetics. If we are talking "food" in a sense of survival or health of your grass, pgr checks a few more boxes than iron.

Saying "thats not how plants eat" isnt accurate. They can absolutely "eat" via foliar applications of N and the benefits of those applications were explained. Your IV analagy actually doesnt support the position you have on foliar applications of N because IV administered drugs are preferred for the same reason that foliar N may be preferred, or necessary. Both foliar and granular applications have their place in lawn care, but to say foliar has no benefits, is wrong.

PGRs obviously reduce top growth, which in summer can save the turf valuable energy. It can suppress seedheads, enhance recovery. Some studies have shown increased tillering and root density. These affects are increases in kbg cut 2"+ according to Dr. Soldat.

Cytogro is a biostimulant that delivers additional GH and cytokins for the plants which I spray with my PGR. I was given a gal of the product from the guys at Ecologel and this is my first full season using cytogro and Im looking to see how the yard recovers coming out of summer/winter conditions.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

jha4aamu said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
> 
> 
> > Plants require iron to survive therefore it is food. They do NOT require pgr therefore it is not food. Period. I'm not going to argue with you on this.
> ...


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## Big Boy Stan (Aug 27, 2020)

Harts said:


> Big Boy Stan said:
> 
> 
> > This has always confused me. I have read the above on this forum in several places, but every big name fertilizer that is marketed as "Winter" has some or even high amounts of K. Seems like both cant be right.
> ...


I agree they are good at marketing and looking to sell as many bags as they can. It just seems to me that if putting K into winterizer was not good for lawns, they would still be able to market a winter product, just with no K in it.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

I wouldn't say that "k is not good for lawns in fall". As a matter of fact k is essential for lawns to aid in surviving through winter. Even the reputable labs, universities, and coops recommend applying k in fall.

The issue is that k applied in late fall is known to cause snow mold. K is slightly immobile in soil and takes a little longer for k to work it's way deeper into the soil. K applied in late fall ends up sitting on the top layer of soil. Once snow covers the lawn the moisture between the lawn and the snow causes snow molded, and k is known to exacerbate the situation.

If you're in an area that doesn't get consecutive days of snow cover in the winter, then k as a winterizer will work. If you're area gets consecutive days of snow cover, then get the k applied in late summer/early fall to allow for the k to work deeper into the soil.

IMO, if your soil is deficient in K, I would apply some k in fall. I would rather deal with snow mold in spring, than have dead grass that didn't survive winter.


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

How late into the season can you go for the "winterize" application. 
SE Massachusetts , was planning on this weekend but the recent storm has left a blanket of leaves/pine needles and branches.
Plus the rain wont let up.
Really need to get the lawn cleaned off and mow before applying.
What I dont want is to waste product. Where going into Nov with some colder weather coming in.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

MacLawn said:


> How late into the season can you go for the "winterize" application.
> SE Massachusetts , was planning on this weekend but the recent storm has left a blanket of leaves/pine needles and branches.


 Seems way too early even for SE Mass.



MacLawn said:


> Plus the rain wont let up.
> Really need to get the lawn cleaned off and mow before applying.
> What I dont want is to waste product. Where going into Nov with some colder weather coming in.


What is your current soil temp? I wouldn't go by green cast either. I'm finding discrepancies of up to 9 degrees from my own on-site data.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Great summary re: K by @Lawn Whisperer.

To be clear, I never said K was bad in the Fall. There are a lot of cool season climates that do not get extended snow coverage (ie 45 or more consecutive days). If you live in a climate where this does not happen, a "Winter fertilizer that contains potassium isn't a bad idea.

With regards to timing, just buy an instant read thermometer and check your own soil temps. Don't rely on websites to be accurate.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

Regarding the potash discussion, I think the key factor people are missing here is the word "LATE" as in winterizers. I went back and reread my posts thinking I was errant for not making that abundantly clear but that isn't the case. K early to mid-fall is perfectly acceptable and in some cases necessary, as the whisperer pointed out. I hope this helps.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> Regarding the potash discussion, I think the key factor people are missing here is the word "LATE" as in winterizers. I went back and reread my posts thinking I was errant for not making that abundantly clear but that isn't the case. K early to mid-fall is perfectly acceptable and in some cases necessary, as the whisperer pointed out. I hope this helps.


In some locations, I wouldn't apply potassium after Labor Day. Early, mid and late are all relative terms. What is true in Ontario may not be true in PA. And why is true in PA may not be true for someone in upstate NY or Wisconsin.

I'll say this again, and @Obi Lawn Kenobi has said this several times: just because you apply potassium in the Fall doesn't mean you are automatically going to get snow mold in the Spring.

With that said, if you really want to apply P or K, get a soil test. You may realize you don't need it.


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> MacLawn said:
> 
> 
> > How late into the season can you go for the "winterize" application.
> ...


 Have not taken any soil temps, I can do that tomorrow. What temps am I looking for?


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

If you can find AMS, use that or the 46-0-0


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

MacLawn said:


> Have not taken any soil temps, I can do that tomorrow. What temps am I looking for?


Can't say for certain for tall fescue and PR. KBG continues to push top growth down to 40 degrees.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> MacLawn said:
> 
> 
> > Have not taken any soil temps, I can do that tomorrow. What temps am I looking for?
> ...


All cool season grass shoot growth ceases at 40°F and root growth ceases at 33°F soil temperatures. Thus, the theory of winterizing with nitrogen between these temps is that the grass takes up the nutrients and stores it for the winter.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

I find it beneficial to plot the local soil temp data. Based on temps just now falling into the low 50's, I have plenty of time for one last application this weekend. Supposed to warm up next week too. My yard is still recovering from aeration two weeks ago, and could use a last fertilizer hurrah. It worked for me last year. Will do soil tests in late winter to better target those nutrients.



I need to rip up the front yard next year as almost a quarter of it has gravel 1-2" deep from downspout drainage or landscaping. Really suffers in mid-summer, those roots are stunted. But recovers nicely in the fall.


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## Obi Lawn Kenobi (Jun 20, 2021)

Lawn looks great Mac,

Keep up the good work!


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

Today was the first day soil temp dropped below 50f. It was the dark corner 
It was 48f .
I have been taking 10 locations and averaging them , so far past 4 days its been 54f 
The smaller area thats bordered by house , street and drive way are still holding temp at 58f . Was a bit shocked. Makes sense with all the heat from the cement/tar and it does get a lot of sun this time of year.

I applied Lesco "winter" fert sunday oct 31 which is 50% fast release. My lawn has is still growing well enough I could mow today.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> Obi Lawn Kenobi said:
> 
> 
> > Plants require iron to survive therefore it is food. They do NOT require pgr therefore it is not food. Period. I'm not going to argue with you on this.
> ...


Does it help to apply supplements like Iron, HumiChar etc in late fall if the soil is deficient or it's better to wait till early spring?


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Big Boy Stan said:


> This has always confused me. I have read the above on this forum in several places, but every big name fertilizer that is marketed as "Winter" has some or even high amounts of K. Seems like both cant be right.


Marketingland is a wonderful thing. I've noticed the same thing. To add to this confusion, the winter versions of these fertilizers are the only ones with K. Hmmm.

I had a little snow mold early in the year, but it was all confined to areas where there were snow piles. It all recovered within a month after the growing season started, so not a big deal.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@Big Boy Stan Fall potassium isn't bad in all situations. Not every consumer they market to will have extended snow cover, therefore there is much less risk for snow mold. Folks in the Northeast is who don't get a lot of snow can certainly use a winter fertilizer.

That said, even if you do get snow cover for 45 plus days, it doesn't mean snow mold is a certainty with potassium apps.


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