# Is it OK to use a dethatching mower blade to pull up some Bermuda grass stolons that I see in tiny Tall Fescue yard?



## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

My lawn is partly infested by my neighbor's Bermuda grass. It's probably been going on for a while since the stolons look pretty big but I had a lawnmaintenance service so I didn't notice them. Now I'm cutting my own grass. I realize that it won't get them all by doing this but it might get some. I'll leave it to you to tell me if it's even worth doing that way or what I should do. I know that I've missed the cool spring season here in Southern California for safely spraying the Bermuda grass without burning the nearby Tall Fescue with either Bio advanced Bermuda Grass Control for Lawns or Round-Up Crabgrass Destroyer for Lawns to kill it. 
But I just tried to rake it by hand & pull it out & that doesn't really seem to get much done, along with it being really hard work, so I'm looking for some other way to get more of the Bermuda grass out now before the summer lets it take over more of my lawn and wipe out more Tall Fescue. I hope to spray something to kill it in the fall when things cool down.
It does bother me that today's push mowers only have one speed and that's almost full speed that you use for mowing, so I hope that's OK for dethatching. It seems too fast to me.
I've only got a few inground sprinklers to worry about missing.
If you say this would be OK to do this, would you recommend I do it early AM after the sprinklers just ran, mid-day or late in the day, or does it matter? I'm mostly just thinking of how the moisture might affect how efficiently that blade can catch & pull the stolons up without just breaking them off when it hits it.
I hate to think of how much of my lawn is now Bermuda grass. Will this dethatching hurt my Tall Fescue much?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Could someone please help me on this?


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> *Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread*. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.


^^^This! It may seem counterintuitive; however; "ripping up" Bermuda (esp this time of year) is akin to throwing blood at sharks to disperse them ... MORE COME!

I am in same boat as you (sort of, don't have neighbors and not sure where my Bermuda weed invader came from (probably a lesson on hiring mowers who also mow roadsides and other people's yards with the same machine they then bring into my yard. :evil: )

Anyhoo, I have given up on "half-stepping" it with *0.5 TEAspoon Tenacity + 3/4oz Triclopyr + 1.5 TEAspoon Non-Ionic Surfactant* (per the # of gal.s water it takes me to spray 1k sf) and as soon as I can get a break in these gosh darn daily gully-washer thunderstorms, I am spraying:

*0.9 ml (NOT oz!) of Pylex;
3/4 Oz Triclopyr; and,
1.0 oz of MSO (Methylated Seed Oil)*
*PER 1-GALLON Water and applied over 1,000 square feet*

I bit the bullet and on AUG 1 ordered 4oz of Pylex from DMOPC for $290 AFTER TAX but last night I saw where another TLF member posted on JUL 31 he found the same thing for $240 before tax and s&h (reading that hurt :-/ IIRC name of that less expensive vendor was Wright? Or, WrightField?

Don't make the mistake I did and let the price put you off - you will literally be using "DROPS" of this stuff per gallons of water and one 4oz bottle will last years, DEPENDING upon how many 1,000's of square feet you have Bermuda invaded.

NOTE: that is one huge advantage of doing an initial spray with the Triclopyr/Tenacity/NIS recipe - it really "LIGHTS UP" (whitens) the Bermuda weed and you can get a good idea of just how far it has or has not invaded into your yard ...

*There are at least two other recipes, one using Fusillade II and the other Acclaim both mixed with either Triclopyr or Turflon Ester AND either Methylated Seed Oil (MSO); Concentrated Oil Cropseed (COC) or Non-Ionic Surfactant (NIS) but: a) I am still researching the correct amounts to use per 1,000 sf*; and, b) everything else there is to know beforehand.

(Don't know about your situation but, it "appears" I am dealing with a manageable area of <1k sf of Bermuda Weed invasion into my TTTF; whereas; on the other hand, with Goose grass I am dealing with over an acre!!!!  :shock:   :shock: (I finally deduced the whitetail deer herds are coming into my yard (their own big salad bowl ALL winter long! :roll: ) and pooping everything they eat on the country roadsides onto my turf!)

*There is also Ornamec "over the top" which is similar to Fusillade*; however; I'm not sure is this last one actually kills the Bermuda or just "stuns" it so it always comes back.

*No matter which chemical route your taking you're probably (I KNOW I am) in for a 3 to 4 year fight of 3 Spray app.s, each 3 weeks apart, timed precisely to your locale in Spring and late summer.*

Whatever you do, DON'T try to "chop it up" - it'll only thank you and spread quicker!


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.


I like what you're saying here about using chemicals but I'm concerned because I've been told it's too warm out here in southern California on a regular basis to use the chemicals since they'll hurt my Tall Fescue too. I think you need a 5-7 day period where the temperature is going to be under 70°.
I can use either BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Control for Lawns or Round-Up Crabgrass Destroyer for Lawns to kill it this fall when the projected daily highs are under 70° for at least a week.
That's why I'm asking this question here. What can I do?


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

If you have glyphosate, a small paintbrush, and a lot of patience, you can paint herbicide directly on the stolons instead of spraying. Take care to protect the fescue with a piece of cardboard or something while you're working.

When you mow, bag the clippings. I've spread bermuda on purpose with clippings.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

tam said:


> If you have glyphosate, a small paintbrush, and a lot of patience, you can paint herbicide directly on the stolons instead of spraying. Take care to protect the fescue with a piece of cardboard or something while you're working.
> 
> When you mow, bag the clippings. I've spread bermuda on purpose with clippings.


Thanks but I don't think I have it in me to paint the stuff with a paintbrush if I don't even have the patience to go find them and pull them out by hand. I'm looking for something I can do that's more mass production style like mowing or spraying with a hose-end sprayer. I guess I just have to wait till the fall and spray that stuff that I found to try to start killing them.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

440mag said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > *Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread*. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.
> ...


Thanks but that sounds too much like Chemistry homework for me. So I'll just stick with the products that are available, especially since my yard is small enough to reach with a couple of hoses put together and a hose-end sprayer, and I'll wait until the fall to use a purpose made product when it's cooler outside. Thanks for your input anyhow. 👍


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

They gave you good advice. There is not an easy hose end method for Bermuda. If you wait until cooler temps it will go dormant and you won't kill it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> They gave you good advice. There is not an easy hose end method for Bermuda. If you wait until cooler temps it will go dormant and you won't kill it.


I'm confused. I'd bought one of these BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer sprayers but then I was told here that it would be too stressful on the Tall Fescue if I sprayed it on any if it was going to be above 70° for the next five days so I returned it to Amazon. 
Now you're saying I shouldn't have returned it and I should have used it a few weeks ago even though it's been up into the 90°s?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Hi, Jeff!

If you're confused you're not alone - all of us have been frustrated by one aspect of this pastime or another and unfortunately Bermuda invading TTTF is just one of those "worst case scenarios" - even for those who've been dealing with the chemicals and timing and the agonies a long, long time.

Hey! I remember that thread now (I didn't realize that other thread was yours when I came upon this thread this morning)

I think the "high temp to avoid is higher than 70^F and if you're not inclined to go for a Chemistry merit badge (who can blame anyone - life is complicated enough these days!) you may just want to get another bottle of either product ScottW mentions:



ScottW said:


> ...
> The active ingredient in $Pylex$ is topramezone, which is conveniently now available in Roundup Crabgrass Destroyer (not to be confused with regular old Roundup which is glyphosate). A 1-gal jug of the Crabgrass Destroyer is ~$27 at HD so it's a way to get the same AI without having to win the lottery to afford the buy-in for Pylex.
> 
> There's also Bayer Bermudagrass Control which is fenoxaprop, same AI as in Acclaim. Some Lowes stores carry it, but not all. I'd have to drive 25 miles to get this semi-locally, or mail order it.
> ...


And then follow jbconnellys suggestion:


Jconnelly6b said:


> *if your daytime highs are below 85 for the next 5 days, I would say you are safe to spray that bottle. Especially if you are expecting rain to keep the heat stress down. For the applicaiton amount, follow what it says on the bottle. It should recommend you to walk at a slow pace and sweep the spray back and forth, covering the leaves with spray, but not soaking them. You don't want to spray so much that it is dripping off the leaves, at that point you have applied it too heavy,
> 
> Good luck!


You're thinking is spot on in my (also a newbie) opinion:



vankjeff said:


> I was thinking that I should just spray a little more area than I think has been infested with Bermuda, or even the whole, little yard this first time, so that 3-4 weeks later I can go spray again in & around any areas where I see dead Bermuda. Sound good? What if temps are too warm then which I bet they will be? I'm in Orange, CA near LA.





vankjeff said:


> ... if you tell me that it would be OK, I'll spray it sometime soon. I'd like to know if it's really dangerous to do if it's going to be in 80° or so....So, what's next? 🤔


I'm on the other side of the USA but I'm telling you if it's BELOW NINETY DEGREES daytime high for several days to a week GO FOR IT! (I'm getting ready to toast the Bermuda in my TTTF and daytime temps are in the high 80's here - with lots and lots of rain - so, I'm not suggesting you do anything I'm not doing myself

You (we BOTH!) really want to get that initial spray down ASAP as you need to do it AGAIN IN 3 WEEKS and then A THIRD TIME ALSO IN 3 WEEKS.

THEN, you're gonna need to do the whole 3 apps 3 weeks apart every Late Spring and every Late Summer - probbaly as long as you have neighbors with Bermuda - Bermuda is like herpes for TTTF - it JUST KEEPS COMING BAAAAAAACK!

Another consideration is just converting your lawn to Bermuda ... ?

PS - typically 3" is as short as you want to mow TTTF - 3-1/2" May even slow down the Bermuda from taking root in your yard (but, there ain't ever gonna be stopping those runners!


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

OK thanks you motivated me to re-order the BioAdvanced 704100B Bermudagrass Control for Lawns Weed Killer Ready-to-Spray killer from Amazon again that I returned a few weeks ago and spray it on the obvious spots that have Bermuda in them. I'll spray it again 3 weeks later and then again in 3 weeks. This one sprayer will do my tiny yard about 5 times.
I'm pretty sure that the highest most push-mowers can be set to mow is 3" & mine is up there. I wish I could mow a little lower but if that's what I gotta do, that's what I gotta do.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

You want the bermuda to be awake and thriving to uptake the products. If you wait until it's dormant, it won't uptake them. A hose end sprayer is not an option for the chemicals needed to control the bermuda and keep your fescue. You need to use a REAL chemical sprayer.

How set are you on your fescue? Is going to bermuda a choice for you? People have said that even after multiple apps of gly, bermuda has still come back. If you aren't going to be diligent about controlling the bermuda, it may be a good option for you to join the alpha grass club.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> You want the bermuda to be awake and thriving to uptake the products. If you wait until it's dormant, it won't uptake them. A hose end sprayer is not an option for the chemicals needed to control the bermuda and keep your fescue. You need to use a REAL chemical sprayer.
> 
> How set are you on your fescue? Is going to bermuda a choice for you? People have said that even after multiple apps of gly, bermuda has still come back. If you aren't going to be diligent about controlling the bermuda, it may be a good option for you to join the alpha grass club.


Oh shoot. I already ordered that BioAdvanced hose end stuff. Should I try to cancel it today before they ship it?


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

I would give that product a shot and see how it works for you. If it works that will save you a good bit of cash. The chems listed above should NOT be applied from a hose end sprayer.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> I would give that product a shot and see how it works for you. If it works that will save you a good bit of cash. The chems listed above should NOT be applied from a hose end sprayer.


You guys are driving me nuts. 😉🤔 I appreciate your help but there's too many contradictions. To me, a hose-end sprayer is that product that I specified. I even posted pictures of it to make myself clear. I've already cancelled it this afternoon after having ordered it again last night on Amazon. That was my second order of it from them. I returned the first order for a refund a couple weeks ago after being told here that the temperatures were too warm outside to use it safely and then it would stunt my TFF. So now I think you're saying that I should order it again. They're going to give up on me and stop taking my orders. I could see their site being set up to automatically block buyers that keep Buying & Returning stuff.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Jeff, I TRULY regret what you're going through.

And I apologize for any poor communications on my part.

That said, and I don't want to put words into anyone's mouth but, below is the way *I* interpret Gilly11's post:



Gilley11 said:


> I would give that product a shot and see how it works for you. ...


I interpret ^this^ as the poster repeating the "Go for it" - with the Bayer hose end product you ordered - that I also posted earlier only, he used 14 words instead of my 3 ... (I may be way off but, that's how I interpret those 14 words)



Gilley11 said:


> If it works that will save you a good bit of cash.


^^This^^ pretty much confirms (for me) the poster is not contradicting my suggestion you go with the hose end Bayer product you'd ordered but, affirming it.



Gilley11 said:


> The chems listed above should NOT be applied from a hose end sprayer.


Now, I read / interpret ^^^this^^^ sentence to be the poster REFERRING TO THE INDIVIDUAL CHEMICAL RECIPES ("chemistry") I listed but, which you decided NOT to use ... NOT the Bayer hose end product.

I got my Pylex/Triclopyr/MSO down (via a backpack sprayer, nothing hose end about the individual chemicals, as Gilley alluded) about 2 hours ago and it was a huge pain in the butt so, I came on here hoping you were in your way to getting your first spray in.

I'll bow out now as I always strive to not be one of "too many coaches" in any endeavor. Besides, there are folks here way more versed in dealing with Bermuda invading TTTF than I'll ever be.

I'm confident you'll get your bermuda problem solved (although I regret there ain't nothing easy or normally less than 3 years in doing so!)

Best o' Success :thumbup: and don't let that Bermuda weed cause too much stress (like I do, too often)


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > They gave you good advice. There is not an easy hose end method for Bermuda. If you wait until cooler temps it will go dormant and you won't kill it.
> ...


The concentration of fenoxaprop in that BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer is too weak to kill the bermuda. I had some bottles that I could not return and mixed them at an increased rate to get an effect. The problem with fenoxaprop is that it does not stress the bermuda enough to be effective at killing it and it will come right back. See my post on methods for suppressing and killing bermudagrass (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427).


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV, I'd have to guess that you were just using bulk BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer so that you could mix it double strength since I don't know how you could do that with one of those hose-end sprayer bottles like I bought. I haven't read your post on methods for suppressing and killing bermudagrass (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427). I should have before I replied. Oops.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I hate to say it but this all seems too complicated for me. I don't know what to do.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

@vankjeff you are over thinking this. Try out the hose end option (the bayer product that attaches to a HOSE) and see how that works for you. If that doesn't work, it's time for hardball with the big boy products.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I just re-re-re-ordered some BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer on Amazon. It's goin' on as soon as there's a few days in a row with the highs under 90°. Wish me good luck and that my Tall Fescue survives. If it don't, I guess some sod joint will get some business this fall laying new TFF after they rip my yard up.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

For the love of al everyone's sanity including your own, DO NOT CANCEL THAT ORDER.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I wanted to give everyone my thanks for trying to help me with this. I apologize if I said anything that might have discouraged anyone from giving their opinions or trying to teach me.
I had canceled it but I've re-ordered it.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> DocV, I'd have to guess that you were just using bulk BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer so that you could mix it double strength since I don't know how you could do that with one of those hose-end sprayer bottles like I bought. I haven't read your post on methods for suppressing and killing bermudagrass (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427). I should have before I replied. Oops.


I actually opened the hose end bottles and calculated the concentration to use in my backpack sprayer.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> vankjeff said:
> 
> 
> > DocV, I'd have to guess that you were just using bulk BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer so that you could mix it double strength since I don't know how you could do that with one of those hose-end sprayer bottles like I bought. I haven't read your post on methods for suppressing and killing bermudagrass (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427). I should have before I replied. Oops.
> ...


Not that it matters but I'm just curious, how did you know how much water it mixes with the Bermuda grass killer just by opening the bottle? Wouldn't you need to figure out the ratio that it normally mixes the hose's water with the Bermuda grass killer to dilute it?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Gilley11 said:


> For the love of al everyone's sanity including your own, DO NOT CANCEL THAT ORDER.


I was skimming and scanning the threads, came across ^this^ and just abruptly laughed OUT LOUD. As in VERY LOUD. And all at the same time, EVERYONE in the room stopped partying and is now staring at me! :shock:

Jeff, I've got a couple of drunk buddies here that I swear are this close to driving across the country to meet you, say hi and rough up your Bermuda neighbors! (They are just the bunch to do it, too ... until the booze runs out, anyway! :lol: )



vankjeff said:


> I wanted to give everyone my thanks for trying to help me with this.


You are soy-tent-lee welcome! Won't be long before you're helping others, as well! :thumbup: 
(Heck, you oughta see some of my threads where I ask for help with basic (to some) math!


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

440mag said:


> Gilley11 said:
> 
> 
> > For the love of al everyone's sanity including your own, DO NOT CANCEL THAT ORDER.
> ...


Come on out. I'll buy the Bud. I'm hating my neighbors with the Bermuda crap that won't leave me & my grass alone. Pisses me off. 😉😃


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> DocV said:
> 
> 
> > vankjeff said:
> ...


For one like others stated, relax and use the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer hose-end product. Apply it 2-3 times and see if it kills the bermuda. If not you can look for a more aggressive approaches next year. Fighting bermudagrass is a multi-pronged approach to stressing it (herbicide stress combined with starving it prior to winter and crowding it out with overseeding). You can overseed immediately after applying the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer if you are planting rye or fescue.

As to how I figured it out the concentration needed, remember the water from the hose and the water in the bottle is just a carrier for the active ingredient (ai) in this case fenoxaprop. Fenoxaprop is the ai in Acclaim Extra and the BioAdvanced product. Acclaim Extra is the professional version. For Acclaim, the concentration in the bottle is 0.57 lbs. ai/gal and you apply 28 fl.oz./acre (0.64 fl.oz./1000 sq.ft.). Now we need to calculate the lbs. ai/1000 sq.ft. 0.57 lbs. ai/gal X 1 gal/128 fl.oz = 0.00445 lbs. ai/fl.oz. Let's abbreviate 1000 sq.ft. as M. Now 0.64 fl.oz./M X 0.00445 lbs. ai/fl.oz = 0.0028 lbs. ai/M.

Now we just need to figure out how many ounces of BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer (BABK) provides 0.0028 lbs. ai/M. BABK has a concentration of 0.035 lbs. ai/gal which is 0.035 lbs. ai/gal X 1 gal/128 oz = 0.000273 lbs. ai/fl.oz. To get the necessary lbs. ai/M that we previously calculated you take 0.0028 lbs. ai/M X 1/0.000273 lbs. ai/1 fl.oz. = 10.26 fl.oz/M of BABK is needed to equal the concentration of Acclaim Extra/M. I know my backsprayer puts out 113 fl.oz/M so I just mixed 10.26 fl.oz. BABK in 64 fl.oz and then added enough water to bring the total volume to 113 fl.oz. and sprayed that over 1000 sq.ft. I actutally added triclopr, non-ionic surfactant and marking dye along with the BABK and then brought the volume up to 113 fl.oz with water. If you read my previously linked post you can see why.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> vankjeff said:
> 
> 
> > DocV said:
> ...


Thanks. You said "Fighting bermudagrass is a multi-pronged approach to stressing it (herbicide stress combined with starving it prior to winter and crowding it out with overseeding). You can overseed immediately after applying the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer if you are planting rye or fescue."
We don't have much of a winter here in Southern California but I guess that's OK. I don't know anything about Overseeding although I do have a new 3 lb bag of Tall Fescue seed, a garden rake & a hand-held spreader. What do I have to do to Overseed? I know TruGreen wants to Aerate and Overseed in the fall but I haven't ever had them do the Overseed. Do I just rake around with a hard rake and then sprinkle grass seed around evenly by hand or with my hand- held spreader? What about watering after that? Should I set the sprinklers to run daily or 2x a day to start the new grass and how many weeks?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Hi vankjeff, this forum has a good guide to cool season grass overseeding (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6250). The idea of overseeding is that mother nature hates bare soil so weeds or grasses will immediately try to take over that space. Using this to our advantage we seed with a desirable turf so there is little soil for the bermudagrass to spread to In case you don't know, overseeding (aka. interseeding in some research articles) is seeding over turf that already exists vs. seeding which is seeding a whole new lawn on bare soil where no grass already exists or was purposely killed off (aka. lawn renovation).


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> Hi vankjeff, this forum has a good guide to cool season grass overseeding (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6250). The idea of overseeding is that mother nature hates bare soil so weeds or grasses will immediately try to take over that space. Using this to our advantage we seed with a desirable turf so there is little soil for the bermudagrass to spread to In case you don't know, overseeding (aka. interseeding in some research articles) is seeding over turf that already exists vs. seeding which is seeding a whole new lawn on bare soil where no grass already exists or was purposely killed off (aka. lawn renovation).


Thanks but when I click on that link, it says "The requested page could not be found." Maybe there's a typo? 
I worry that my killing the Bermuda grass will wipe out a lot of my lawn in the areas where I see it growing amongst the Tall Fescue. There's some areas where I don't see any stolons in there yet. It's just near my two neighbors yards. But I guess I'll take that chance and deal with it later.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Here is another attempt at the link to the Cool Season Lawn Guide that is posted at the top of the Cool Season Lawns discussion board https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595&sid=71924a067045ee946f7d0148e71eee75.

As to hurting your turf type tall fescue, fenoxaprop will not hurt the TTTF if you apply it as required by the BioAdvanced label.


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## themack22 (Jul 25, 2020)

440mag said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > *Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread*. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.
> ...


I've been pulling bermuda the last few weeks 

Now for the humblebrag, my neighbor works for BASF, let me "borrow" his pylex. Borrow, as in have a few drops.

He said 0.3 ml (which is what the instructions say). I am in Central NC, so we're seeing sustained temps in the mid 80's for the next ten days. He says I should be good. I grew up in WNC, so I know you're temps are about 10 degrees lower on average, but I am going to give it a go. I have about 1,000sf to handle.

We've been getting storms too. How much time between application and rain should I aim for? 8 hours? 24 hours?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

> I've been pulling bermuda the last few weeks
> Now for the humblebrag, my neighbor works for BASF, let me "borrow" his pylex. Borrow, as in have a few drops.
> He said 0.3 ml (which is what the instructions say). I am in Central NC, so we're seeing sustained temps in the mid 80's for the next ten days. He says I should be good. I grew up in WNC, so I know you're temps are about 10 degrees lower on average, but I am going to give it a go. I have about 1,000sf to handle.
> We've been getting storms too. How much time between application and rain should I aim for? 8 hours? 24 hours?


Not sure why you said some thing about the temps somewhere being 10° lower on average (than NC?) since I'm in Southern California where it's warmer than NC all the time.
My hose-end spray bottle of BioAdvanced Bermudagrass killer comes from Amazon this week and I hope to spray the areas that have some Bermuda tolons in them ASAP and then repeat every 3 or 4 weeks, 3 or 4 times. I wonder if I should set my sprinklers to run every day to keep the tall fescue grass moisten so that it doesn't get hurt by the Bermuda grass killer. Does anyone know?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

@vankjeff Spray and reapply every 28 days with the last application in mid-September because your bermudagrass should stop growing by then. You can then overseed with tall fescue to help crowd out the bermudagrass.

Don't worry about watering because at the rates you are applying the herbicide it should not be toxic to the fescue. If the temps are above 85F during the day just wait until later in the day when the temp drops below that to spray.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> @vankjeff Spray and reapply every 28 days with the last application in mid-September. Your Bermudagrass should stop growing by then. You can then overseed with tall fescue to help crowd out the Bermudagrass.
> Don't worry about watering because at the rates you are applying the herbicide, it should not be toxic to the Tall Fescue. If the temps are above 85°F during the day, just wait until later in the day when the temp drops below that to spray.


Thanks DocV. That's the simple step-by-step that I needed to feel good about what I'm doing.
I wonder how much of my yard will be dead by mid-September? 🤔
Also, I wonder if I'll be able to figure out how heavily to spray it on and to make sure that I sprayed everywhere? I've heard that you don't really want to drench anywhere with the BioAdvanced, since that can stress the Tall Fescue, but that you just want to spray enough to get the Bermudagrass wet but not have any down on the ground too much. Is that right? I've heard that there's some kind of marking stuff that some people add to the killer spray to use so they can tell where they've sprayed. But I don't think I'm gonna bother with that since the areas that I have to spray are so small that I'll be able to remember where I've sprayed and they'll even still be wet.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

A bottle of Bermudagrass Control for Lawns treats 5,000 sq.ft. and it looks like you have 1500 sf so you should spray 9.6 fl.oz. (32 fl.oz. / 5000 sf X 1500 sf = 9.6 fl.oz.) evenly over your lawn. I think it has a window on the side of the bottle so you can see how much product is left in the bottle while spraying. If you spray too fast and have not used 10 fl.oz (rounding up), then just make another pass over the lawn until 10 fl.oz. is sprayed. Be sure to spray the edge where the grass meets the concrete because bermudagrass really likes the heat the concrete gives off and grows well there.

Fenoxaprop is absorbed through the leaves. With a hose-end sprayer it will be hard not to saturate to the point of getting the soil wet due to the volume of water being sprayed. Don't worry about that just make sure to use roughly 10 fl.oz. over your 1500 sf.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

That's interesting that you said to do the whole lawn and if I haven't used enough, that means I should just do another walk-around spray. I've wondered how I would know how much I should be applying. Also, I don't know if you saw in any pictures I have a little patch of grass between my sidewalk and my driveway and I've got to assume there's no way that Bermuda grass has gotten in there or should I assume that it has & spray there anyhow? That is the furthest point in my front yard away from either of my neighbors yards where the Bermuda grass is coming from.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> A bottle of Bermudagrass Control for Lawns treats 5,000 sq.ft. and it looks like you have 1500 sf so you should spray 9.6 fl.oz. (32 fl.oz. / 5000 sf X 1500 sf = 9.6 fl.oz.) evenly over your lawn. I think it has a window on the side of the bottle so you can see how much product is left in the bottle while spraying. If you spray too fast and have not used 10 fl.oz (rounding up), then just make another pass over the lawn until 10 fl.oz. is sprayed. Be sure to spray the edge where the grass meets the concrete because bermudagrass really likes the heat the concrete gives off and grows well there.
> 
> Fenoxaprop is absorbed through the leaves. With a hose-end sprayer it will be hard not to saturate to the point of getting the soil wet due to the volume of water being sprayed. Don't worry about that just make sure to use roughly 10 fl.oz. over your 1500 sf.


Have you ever seen any YouTube videos of anyone applying that BioAdvanced Bermuda grass sprayer stuff so I could see how they did it and how heavily they are putting it on and get a good idea before I started?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Google (or better yet, use DuckDuckGo) and Use search terms "*how to use bio advanced bermuda grass sprayer*" and a plethora of videos result. Here's a couple ... (DO NOT OVERTHINK the guy in the video adding a surfactant! I'm pretty sure BioAdvanced already adds one to the product you ordered)

NOTE: THESE LINKED VIDEOS ARE JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF HOW TO MOVE TNE HOSE END SPRAYER BACK AND FORTH - IGNORE WHATEVER PRODUCT IT IS THEYRE SPRAYING! JUST FOCUS ON HOW THEY USE THE SPRAYER

Fast forward to 15:00 minute mark: 




Fast forward to 1 min:20 sec mark: 




Try not to overthink this (that's coming from me, The Worlds Worst Over-Thinker! :lol:


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

PS - Once it arrives, if no rain forecast for 24-hrs SPRAY THE STUFF!

Seriously, you're gonna need to get 2 more sprays in (@ 3 weeks apart) this year and ...

REMEMBER, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE "BERMUDA NEIGHBORS", you're pretty much going to be spraying 3x (@ 3 weeks apart) EVERY Late Spring and Late Summer ... Your brass will,thank you!

... count your blessings you have a small area to tend to (I'd be $crewed royally ...) :lol:


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks for those 440mag. I've been wondering how it would spray. So cool, I got to see them use it. Both of them apparently sprayed too much and that's why it didn't cover as much as it should, so now I know that I don't need to apply as much as they did based on that the manufacturer of mine says since mine should do 5,000 ft.² also.
It came today from Amazon. No rain in the forecast but the highs for the next few days are supposed to be in the high 90°s and then Saturday will be 100°+. Should I still do it?


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## Deadpair (May 30, 2020)

Let's go back to the original premise. Can you dethatch TTTF while spraying to control Bermuda?

My first treatment is down and the Bermuda is responding is the right way. My yard will benefit from a dethatching so I would like to dethatch before overseeding. I may slit seed rather than broadcast spread so here are my questions.

1. Why should i not dethatch 2 weeks after Pylex 1? It will have had a chance to work and I have 2 more treatments before overseed.

2. Will slit seeding TTTF stir up more Bermuda such that the benefit of getting good soil contact is out weighed. Even with TTTF cut to 3" or slightly below I am afraid that broadcast seeding is not as good as slit seeding.

Curious to hear your thoughts.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Deadpair said:


> Let's go back to the original premise. Can you dethatch TTTF while spraying to control Bermuda?
> 
> My first treatment is down and the Bermuda is responding is the right way. My yard will benefit from a dethatching so I would like to dethatch before overseeding. I may slit seed rather than broadcast spread so here are my questions.
> 
> ...


Come on Deadpair dude, A little forum etiquette is needed here. This is my thread. I don't want to be notified by email every time you say something else and also when someone replies to your thing. This forum doesn't even give you a hint of what was said in the email notification that it sends out telling me that a new reply was made in my thread like many forums do.
Would you start your own Question thread please?


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## Deadpair (May 30, 2020)

No problem Karen


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Well, I just sprayed my first spraying of that BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer today, Thursday August 13. My grass was long and needs mowing but I thought I'd just do it anyhow today because the weather is cooler but it's supposed to get up to 100° by Saturday. I'm going to stop my sprinklers from sprinkling tomorrow morning. Let's see how it works. l wasted a lot of it on my tiny little yard because that stupid, awkward ON/OFF valve on the bottle is so hard to use that I couldn't figure out how to turn it OFF when I wanted to walk across my driveway to spray the strip of lawn on the other side, so I had to just walk across the driveway with it spraying.
Those bottles are really easy to control the spray on but the valve sucks. I used about 3/4 or even more of the bottle on parts of a very small yard and the bottle is supposed to do 5,000 ft.².
As far as that stupid ON/OFF valve, it won't bother me again. I clipped it off with some side-snip pliers. &#128077;


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I realized that when I sprayed that BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer, I'd have to be careful when I'm spraying this little sliver of my front yard next to my neighbors since I don't want to kill her Bermuda grass. 
I actually took an old steak knife and I cut down our property line to cut any stolons that are growing into our yard from hers so that when I spray to kill them in our yard, it won't go back up the stolon and kill what's growing in her yard. 
I'll also had to be particularly careful so that any overspray doesn't get on her yard and kill it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

It's been 4 days since I sprayed BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer everywhere. Just after I sprayed it, I put my sprinklers on a 48 hour Rain Delay to make sure that the BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer didn't get washed off. Then I ran the sprinklers at the end of that period. My grass had been pretty tall when I sprayed the Bermuda Grass Killer. I mowed today, 4 days later, and I don't see any evidence of anything dying. Shouldn't I?
Did I let my grass grow too tall before I applied that BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Killer?
I probably sprayed it at least 4x heavier than it says to on the bottle's label. I used about 80% of the bottle while spraying about 1,000sf and the bottle says it's for 5,000sf.
Part of that waste was because of how difficult their stupid tab thing is that you need to hold back when you move the valve.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

When I sprayed it on my backyard it took about a 7-10 days to see browning of the Bermudagrass. Even Pylex, which is more toxic to Bermudagrass, took 4 days to see the color lighten and 10 days before the Bermuda began to whiten. Be patient and you may not see results until the second application. Remember Bermudagrass is the alpha of grasses, it can survive glyphosate. It takes 3 applications of glyphosate (and optimally a combination with fluazifop) to minimize, not kill 100% just minimize, Bermudagrass.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

DocV said:


> When I sprayed it on my backyard, it took about 7-10 days to see browning of the Bermudagrass. Even Pylex, which is more toxic to Bermudagrass, took 4 days to see the color lighten and 10 days before the Bermuda began to whiten. Be patient since you may not see results until the second application. Remember Bermudagrass is the alpha of grasses. It can survive glyphosate. It takes 3 applications of glyphosate (and optimally a combination with fluazifop) to minimize, not kill 100% just minimize, Bermudagrass.


Thanks. I just saw this delay mentioned today on another product's Details in Amazon. For some reason, the BioAdvanced product Details doesn't mention any delay.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.


+a gagillion


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## edixon88 (Jun 18, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > Don't do it, the more you tear it up, the more it will spread. People scalp and dethatch on purpose to cut stolons and make it grow thicker. Go the chemical route. The time for that is when it's actively growing, which is now.
> ...


I know that tearing up the stolons with a scarifier will do this but what would you suggest for someone that needs to dethatch prior to overseeding? Just use chemicals to (try to) kill the Bermuda and maybe rake the area to loosen some soil?


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

I dont have a personal recommendation as ive not dealt with encroaching Bermuda, but the recommendation to basically fallow those areas with glyohosate or another herbicide seems sound.

Since you're in the transition zone with a longer growth season, you can probably seed later than your northern friends and still come out ok.

Seems like a lesser of 2 evils decision only you can decide....


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## edixon88 (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm going the Pylex/Triclopyr route, second application coming this Friday. I was hoping to get rid of some of the thatch when I overseed on/around 9/10 but maybe I'll just avoid the area where I've seen Bermuda.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I sure wish we could keep this thread on my situation since I'm the one who started it, but I guess maybe I don't understand how this forum works. &#129300;
Anyway, once I apply the third batch of this Bermuda grass "killer" stuff and hopefully the Bermuda grass will be all browned out, will it still be alive? If it's browned out and just lying there, how can I remove it or do I just leave it laying in there underneath my Tall Fescue TFF? Will it start growing again next summer when it gets warm?


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

vankjeff said:


> Anyway, once I apply the third batch of this Bermuda grass "killer" stuff and hopefully the Bermuda grass will be all browned out, will it still be alive? If it's browned out and just lying there, how can I remove it or do I just leave it laying in there underneath my Tall Fescue TFF? Will it start growing again next summer when it gets warm?


Unfortunately, the answer is yes to all 3 questions. It will be a multi-year project.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> vankjeff said:
> 
> 
> > Anyway, once I apply the third batch of this Bermuda grass "killer" stuff and hopefully the Bermuda grass will be all browned out, will it still be alive? If it's browned out and just lying there, how can I remove it or do I just leave it laying in there underneath my Tall Fescue TFF? Will it start growing again next summer when it gets warm?
> ...


Thanks. So I guess that anything that's strong enough to kill the Bermuda grass will also kill my Tall Fescue? If that's the case, what a bummer. Now I hate my neighbors. 😉
I guess I should just have someone rip everything out and sod the yard with Bermuda grass and lower my mower a few inches.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

vankjeff said:


> Thanks. So I guess that anything that's strong enough to kill the Bermuda grass will also kill my Tall Fescue?


Well, I can tell you I blanket sprayed glyphosate + pylex twice prior to my renovation last fall, with the intent to kill all the bluegrass and bermuda. There was not a blade of green grass left by September. Pretty much all the Bermuda is back this year. I'm attacking it again selectively with triclopyr + pylex. It does go brown/white, but we won't find out until next year how effective it was. It does keep it from spreading, so it's definitely worthwhile.


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