# I think I hate fine fescue



## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

I'm convinced that the presence of fine fescue in my northern mix lawn is the reason for my disappointment with the yard year after year.

In mid spring, I get hit with a steady red thread that runs its course for at least a month, if not longer. This weakens the stand for the heat of the summer. I believe it's the fine fescue that is most susceptible. It happens every year, without fail. I'm not on a fungicide program, largely because of the size of the yard, and also because I've read red thread does not usually warrant one. The appearance is widespread in the yard from mid spring until early summer.

The fine fescue seems to be the first to "check out" when it gets dry - often within a few days, whereas the TTTF will go weeks before browning. I need almost constant irrigation to keep it looking alive.

I try to fertlize when the lawn is looking pale and wiry, and I've now found that fine fescue and a moderate fertilizer program are not a good match. Unfortunately, the fine fescue is also a naturally pale grass as well, making me want to give it more to bring out a better color.

I've subscribed to "cutting high", keeping my cut height at 3.25 - 3.75 for years, but the lawn never stands up very well for a clean, crisp cut, and seems to get matted during and after mowing. I've read that fine fescue doesn't like a very tall cut, as it will fall over and become even more prone to fungus.

I'd love to kill it all off, but that's not in the cards for the size of lawn I have. So I am going to pound it with a couple of hundred pounds of TTTF seed after aeration this year to see if I can infuse any in to help the appearance. Interestingly, the lawn always bounces back very well late in the season, and doesn't look half bad, right at the prime time to make a difference with an overseed (subject of another thread).

I'm starting to think, more and more, that it's the abundance of fine fescue in the yard that's the root cause for most of my issues. Any tips for keeping a northern mix with fine fescue looking decent?


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

X2 on that. I hate it with a passion. IMHO I don't see any use for it. A speck of heat and it's nothing but a disappointment. I'm dethatch the heck out of my Lawn, hoping I can uproot it and get it out of my Lawn.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

+1. It stays green in my not renovated shady area, but it is SO different from the rest. Luckily, only few 1' patches left...


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

Have you thought about smoking off a test plot of 1 1 or 2k to get an idea of how pure tttf would handle summer?


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Thejarrod said:


> Have you thought about smoking off a test plot of 1 1 or 2k to get an idea of how pure tttf would handle summer?


I have done that a couple of times, in fact did it this spring (to address either a dense, pale FF stand in the shade and/or some poa triv). Granted this was a full shade area, but the TTTF has been magical in this one spot through the whole season. Stayed full green, cuts like a carpet.

Here are some pictures:

*BEFORE*


*DURING*


*AFTER (current picture)*


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

I realized I have a "favorite shot" I consistently take with my phone which shows a good chronicle of my yard throughout the season. Granted, these were taken in different years, but it shows the progression from good to bad,to decent to bad back to good from March through November. You can see June and July can be hit or miss months depending on the weather. The horizontal line about halfway down the yard is where the irrigation ends. Beyond the row of trees and shed in the back is an area that was renovated to TTTF/KBG (80/20) - can't really see it in the pics because it still gets heat stressed, but it takes longer to get there, cuts much cleaner, and doesn't get the fungus the rest of the yard does.

*MARCH*


*APRIL*


*MAY (fungus starting)*










*JUNE*






*JULY*




*AUGUST (current picture, off-color spots nearer the foreground are bentgrass/nimblewill recently treated with Tenacity)*


*SEPTEMBER*


*OCTOBER*




*NOVEMBER (crisp!)*


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I agree, I hate fine fescues. Reno in sections to get rid of it. I think some folks tried to hurt it with a high dose of tenacity. I don't know if acclaim or msm can hurt it too, but worth checking.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

@Kaba and I feel your pain too. I managed to keep mine green this year but I was out in the yard almost daily with the soil probe, keeping irrigation perfect.

I did an aggressive dethatch last fall which tore out a bunch of FF, then I did 0.5lb/week N fall blitz to get my KBG to fill in. I definitely have less FF this year


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Me as well, being newer to the game, thought it was poa A, but goes dormant every year and looks like crap.

Pulled the reno card this year.

In my case, I used to have a bunch of trees in my yard that have been cut down before I moved in and well that's where most of the FF was....


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Height of cut...

I've been reviewing some posts on here and reading some discussions including those by @Kaba and @davegravy, where it's been suggested a lower height of cut might help with the fine fescue "flop", which can ultimately promote disease.

I've always subscribed to the "higher is better" philosophy and used to mow at 3.5-4". This year I've been at 3.25" (though it's a new mower, so might not necessarily be an apples-to-apples comparison with prior years). Still doesn't look or cut much better. Thinking of dropping down to the 2.75-3" range to see if I get the cut quality I want. Not sure how my other grasses (including the TTTF) will behave at the lower heights, or if I am just going to send it in to heat stress dormancy quicker at the lower heights, but it's worth a shot.

I've posted some pictures in the past of how differently the northern mix (with fine fescue) cuts as compared to areas I've renovated. In fact, I've been blaming my mower for years, having gone through a couple of them to try to get a better quality of cut. It's probably been the grass all along.

*Floppy (lower quality of cut on the northern mix with FF)*


*Crisp (higher quality of cut on a TTTF/KBG 80/20 blend)*


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

I am with you for the hate of FF. I had no plans for a reno and smoked a se tion of 2-3k yesterday. I am.planning to seed with TTTF. Maybe mix mazama in it.

I've been mowing between 2-2.5" and honestly the FF in most area still looks floppy and matted in places. It also doesn't keep well with my fertilization schedule. I have irrigation even then the only place it has really stayed active is in absolute dense shade.

Time for it to go.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

For your particular situation, I agree with the consensus that the FF needs to go. It looks like yours is primarily in sunny locations. FF is not going to produce a high quality turf. It's strengths are in dense shade where nothing else will grow and in low maintenance/fertiliy/reduced mowing areas. It also greens up early, but by nature goes into dormancy early for survival. At work, we have fields of it that go dormant for the summer and into the fall. It crowds out weeds too, but who wants to look at months of dormancy. I've been trying to slowly crowd it out under my trees with Bewitched and Mazama, but ultimately need some, since it's so densely shaded. Some were experimenting with using Tenacity in multiple apps to thin the FF out (@Green if I remember correctly). In your case, I agree with others who suggested to smoke it and start over. Since the TTTF/KBG has worked well for you, I would continue with it.


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## sangheili (Jul 5, 2020)

I'm considering the opposite, and I think climate makes a big difference. We never get hot enough weather for FF to go dormant here. When all the Poa dies off in summer from drought and warmer temps (max 70) the fine fescue I have in one spot is still strong green. I'll be planting a mixed test stand around 500sq ft in a week or two of Chewings and Red Creeping to see if it's what I want to switch to long term. Love my champion GQ but the FF might work better on my very shaded property with mild ocean climate.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I hate the way it lays down. I'm looking to replace it with tttf. I cleared some lower branches out to get more light into my shady spots.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Just to be a jerk / devil's advocate, @g-man and @Kaba who had that gorgeous 100% FF lawn? Can you post a picture?


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## sangheili (Jul 5, 2020)

Lawn Noob said:


> I hate the way it lays down. I'm looking to replace it with tttf. I cleared some lower branches out to get more light into my shady spots.


What's your mowing height?


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

mooch91 said:


> Height of cut...
> 
> I've been reviewing some posts on here and reading some discussions including those by @Kaba and @davegravy, where it's been suggested a lower height of cut might help with the fine fescue "flop", which can ultimately promote disease.
> 
> ...


I did find lowering mowing height helped, however you have to stay on it. Mine was standing up nicely but then went away for a week this summer and didn't get PGR down. When I came back the FF had grown, flopped, and at that point it was game over. Now I could mow at 1" and still be cutting nothing off it.


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## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

I think I dislike Devil Grass.. but hey thats just me..


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

Lol to this entire thread.

I told @g-man a few weeks ago we need to make an emotional support section on TLF for FF owners!

Why is everything else so superior to FF!!!

I have dropped my summer HOC to <3", going to continue to drop it (can't go much lower on my rotary due to tree roots on grade all over), may switch to my reel for the front yard soon.

Squirrels are murdering my lawn making it even worse after the summer die off.

I had some photos of the fescue flopping over like 6-8" long I'll dig up.

Yes @davegravy there is that damn guy here who has a perfect FF yard and it makes me even more upset hahaha. Let me find it.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

It's @PNW_George

His damn FF looks perfect. No idea what his secret is.

https://thelawnforum.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1679


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@gravylookout has a FF lawn near Canada. For his weather, it is a good option to use FF.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

mooch91 said:


> I realized I have a "favorite shot" I consistently take with my phone which shows a good chronicle of my yard throughout the season. Granted, these were taken in different years, but it shows the progression from good to bad,to decent to bad back to good from March through November. You can see June and July can be hit or miss months depending on the weather. The horizontal line about halfway down the yard is where the irrigation ends. Beyond the row of trees and shed in the back is an area that was renovated to TTTF/KBG (80/20) - can't really see it in the pics because it still gets heat stressed, but it takes longer to get there, cuts much cleaner, and doesn't get the fungus the rest of the yard does.
> 
> *MARCH*
> 
> ...


I have the same chronicle in my yard here: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=206731#p206731

Every July-Sept looks like someone who doesn't care about their lawn lives at my house and I hate it.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Kaba said:


> It's @PNW_George
> 
> His damn FF looks perfect. No idea what his secret is.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1679


I'm convinced it's an elite cultivar of FF that's been bred to not suck. That's what I'm gonna tell myself.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

sangheili said:


> Lawn Noob said:
> 
> 
> > I hate the way it lays down. I'm looking to replace it with tttf. I cleared some lower branches out to get more light into my shady spots.
> ...


3.75" to 4"


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Since some of you have had success making improvements without a total kill, I am still intending to aerate and oversees a large portion of the yard.

I will be picking up 150-200 lbs of a decent TTTF tomorrow in preparation.

I've overseeded with TTTF in the past, but I think I used only 50 lb on the whole yard (at that time, about 40K sq ft). It didn't make much of a dent, but I do still see a tiny bit of TTTF standing tall and green when the FF checks out.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

@davegravy He did do a full FF reno if I'm not mistaken


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Kaba said:


> I have the same chronicle in my yard here: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=206731#p206731
> 
> Every July-Sept looks like someone who doesn't care about their lawn lives at my house and I hate it.


Other than the mower stripes, I very much feel the same way.

I think if I had full-yard irrigation, I might be in a better place. I have no idea why the original owners stopped at half the yard.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Pool spot.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

davegravy said:


> Kaba said:
> 
> 
> > It's @PNW_George
> ...


The new ones definitely seem better in staying green in sun in Summer and in recovering after going dormant, but they all seem to do better in mixed stands (both the old and newer ones). I've been using the newer ones, and with irrigation and partial sun, they don't go totally brown. Also, I have a neighbor with some that recovers well. I transplanted some of it to my yard, and it went brownish, but has since recovered pretty well, a month or so later.

They also stand up better instead of flipping over when mixed with TTTF, TTPR, or KBG, despite higher HOCs. The other grasses are more rigid generally, which helps.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Green said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> > Kaba said:
> ...


@Kaba ^


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

davegravy said:


> Kaba said:
> 
> 
> > It's @PNW_George
> ...


I think it's because he's in the PNW. Does it ever really get that hot there? :lol:

I've tried the scalping/tenacity/KBG overseed routine for my FF this year. We'll see if it sticks... These upper 80s and low 90s are not helping though, I'm sure...

Are we starting the Not-So-Fine Fescue Support Group yet?


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## PNW_TurfNoob (May 29, 2020)

@Shindoman has a pretty awesome FF/bent lawn that he mows low and that looks amazing.

PNW_George can speak for himself, but I believe he used SR 5130 Chewings Fine Fescue with this years reno and also did a small amount of bent.

I'm also in Western Washington and it doesn't get very hot here for very long. I've got a new area I need to seed and have been so all over the map with which seed to use. For awhile I was all set to order Radar FF from SSO and then saw how badly the FF did in my NoMix lawn (checked out early, dormant when the rye/KBG around it was thriving) that I'm having my doubts I want a full FF stand. Plus you can't use Tenacity when seeding with FF (from what I've read on the label).

I'll join the NSFFSG when it is started :lol:


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Yep I agree with you. I learned that the hard way a few years back when I bought my first home and began seeding with sun and shade mixes. They germinated quickly and looked nice at first until the fine fescue turned into clumps and the creeping red started to spread. I notice it does terrible in foot traffic, doesn't want to stand up straight, grows slower than the other grass and then gets disease and turns brown in the summer.

The guy that runs Johnathon Green said that he doesn't like fine fescue for anything except low maintenance. I definitely agree with that, if you have a steep hill or a spot back in the woods that you don't care much about it's nice for those kind of things. But if you want a uniform lawn that can hold up in foot traffic and the summer heat forget about it.


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## GreenMountainLawn (Jul 23, 2019)

I live in the mountains in VT with an average mid July high temp of 76-77F and lows in the upper 50s and my fine fescue still looks like dog crap in the sunny sections. I don't have irrigation, but even with a rainy period, the strong mid summer sun angle is a killer and it still browns and becomes stringy and scraggly. I have a typical N MIx I inherited when I moved in 3 years ago and with 1 acre, no irrigation, and a somewhat shallow well, reno is out of the question. I fert like crazy to try to get the KBG to spread. I'm sure the FF looks even worse in warmer zones, but goes to show you it looks bad most places with full sun.

This summer has been much warmer and drier than usual here, so its looks even worse than normal. Last summer was cooler and wetter and it looked OK from a distance. Unless you'll summer weather is cloudy and cool, it seems like it will brown. Maybe I will start some reno in sections. It's just awful, end of story.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

I've got $300 worth of decent quality TTTF I purchased today. Will I be disappointed if I try to infuse it in to the northern mix to improve the FF that's in there? I'm planning to cut a little lower (not scalp), aerate aggressively, and spread at a 5 lb/1000 sq ft rate.


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## sangheili (Jul 5, 2020)

GreenMountainLawn said:


> I live in the mountains in VT with an average mid July high temp of 76-77F and lows in the upper 50s and my fine fescue still looks like dog crap in the sunny sections. I don't have irrigation, but even with a rainy period, the strong mid summer sun angle is a killer and it still browns and becomes stringy and scraggly.


Started work on the yard this summer (had been neglected for a decade). This house is right on the ocean in Western WA. As summer hit and we have had an abnormally dry summer, the entire lawn checked out except a 1000sq ft section of almost all Fine Fescue. It was part sun, like the entire property, and it kept green the entire summer. When the entire city was light brown (both dormant grass and massive stands of dead Poa A.) that one section of fine fescue kept its color.

Temps never really reached above 70deg all summer, but held highs of mid 60's. With the lack of rain everything checked out except that Fine Fescue, it was kind of impressive. I think there's likely a very limited climate which it thrives in, and I'm in it.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

sangheili said:


> GreenMountainLawn said:
> 
> 
> > I live in the mountains in VT with an average mid July high temp of 76-77F and lows in the upper 50s and my fine fescue still looks like dog crap in the sunny sections. I don't have irrigation, but even with a rainy period, the strong mid summer sun angle is a killer and it still browns and becomes stringy and scraggly.
> ...


I think you're right, very limited climate. Yet a big % of it is included in most box store seed mixes... Why?

I guess the turf seed industry resigned themselves to never being able to produce a seed mix that the average homeowner could keep green through the summer, and the next best thing is a mix that looks good spring and fall and has good genetic diversity for disease resistance.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

I think it comes down to economics, KBG for example is more $/lbs as the seeds are smaller and they sell 1.4kg bags.

Does the average person on your street irrigate 3x a day in August when they overseed? Not on mine, it's like May 20th and they water 1x a day or less for like 6 days, so they need fast establishing (PRG/FF) grasses, KBG is out of the question. Unfortunately if every average homeowner was running a PRG lawn, they would die from the lack of N and lack of watering in the summer. At least FF protects itself by going dormant as you say.

Plus even if all you do is return your clippings, FF will get enough N to survive, fert optional lol.

For the average homeowner who doesn't do anything to their lawn but mow it's a dream grass.

I think our problem is we treat FF lawns like KBG/TTTF/PRG, and it's just not capable of that much love.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Kaba said:


> I think it comes down to economics, KBG for example is more $/lbs as the seeds are smaller and they sell 1.4kg bags.
> 
> Does the average person on your street irrigate 3x a day in August when they overseed? Not on mine, it's like May 20th and they water 1x a day or less for like 6 days, so they need fast establishing (PRG/FF) grasses, KBG is out of the question. Unfortunately if every average homeowner was running a PRG lawn, they would die from the lack of N and lack of watering in the summer. At least FF protects itself by going dormant as you say.
> 
> ...


Good points.

FF is like an angsty teenager... Goes out a lot and comes home late, gets mad if you try to love it, talks a lot about moving out "for good" but never does.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

@davegravy hahah so true!

"FF if you don't get your sh!t together you're moving out!".... Except it never does....


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

mooch91 said:


> I've got $300 worth of decent quality TTTF I purchased today. Will I be disappointed if I try to infuse it in to the northern mix to improve the FF that's in there? I'm planning to cut a little lower (not scalp), aerate aggressively, and spread at a 5 lb/1000 sq ft rate.


Cutting down to 1.75" with tenacity at 5 oz/acre right before seeding has seemed to help with my KBG overseed. I'm 13 days in now and I've definitely got new KBG in the mix. I also think the humic/fulvic treatment (RGS/Humic12/GreenePOP/002Micro) really helped encourage quick germination. I can only imagine the same happening for a faster germinating seed.


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## Zcape35 (Sep 17, 2019)

I've got some FF in my backyard as it came with the house. It holds up ok but a little foot traffic and it lays down. My neighbor has a bunch of it, if he puts off a mow it is laying down pretty fierce. I can say that I wouldn't use it in any Reno after seeing how it lives it's life. For Shame!


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

Fine Fescue does well in cool moist conditions. That's why it's the premium turf of choice in the U.K. It's a delicate fine bladed turf that is durable but still delicate. Seems to do well here in the PNW but only west of the Cascades. Doesn't need much irrigation but then again, even in the summer we get dew on the lawn in the morning just from the humidity level. I'm still learning how to keep mine happy. It's just different. I know it works well at very low heights. I'm at 1/2". Let it get too tall and it gets weak. I'm guessing they put it in blends because it can tolerate drought well.


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## Mark B (May 30, 2019)

What's wrong with fine fescue? Here's mine maintained at 72in :? :lol:


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Mark B said:


> What's wrong with fine fescue? Here's mine maintained at 72in :? :lol:


It does make a fantastic golf rough 😛


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

You guys are making me feel really bad about just planting fine fescue.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

pennstater2005 said:


> You guys are making me feel really bad about just planting fine fescue.


😛

There's is hope - a few others have made it work. If you can figure out the FF puzzle you'll rise up and be among an exclusive group of TLF heros. We need a t-shirt with a caption "I conquered Fine Fescue".


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Another thing about fine fescue is how it needs less fertility than other types in the mix. Bluegrass and rye like about 3.5-5lbs of Nitrogen per 1000 and fine fescues like about 2.5 lbs per 1000. Well when you fertilize in the late spring or any at all in the summer when the bluegrass rye needs it, the fine fescue gets brown patch or something else.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

davegravy said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are making me feel really bad about just planting fine fescue.
> ...


 :lol: I'm hoping it dies actually, so I fit right in here.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Fine fescue control in mixed turf (KBG, TTTF): Has anyone had success with either Tenacity (mesotrione) or Drive (quinclorac) to control fine fescue? I'm dealing with a few big patches (spreading) as well as a mixed blend with other grasses. Looking to think it out in the mixed blend and kill off the patches. Willing to try both products, just wanted to get an idea of whether or not there have been any successes. I haven't found any so far, but most end up inconclusive.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

mooch91 said:


> Fine fescue control in mixed turf (KBG, TTTF): Has anyone had success with either Tenacity (mesotrione) or Drive (quinclorac) to control fine fescue? I'm dealing with a few big patches (spreading) as well as a mixed blend with other grasses. Looking to think it out in the mixed blend and kill off the patches. Willing to try both products, just wanted to get an idea of whether or not there have been any successes. I haven't found any so far, but most end up inconclusive.


I've had luck with tenacity wrecking fine fescue.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Lawn Noob said:


> mooch91 said:
> 
> 
> > Fine fescue control in mixed turf (KBG, TTTF): Has anyone had success with either Tenacity (mesotrione) or Drive (quinclorac) to control fine fescue? I'm dealing with a few big patches (spreading) as well as a mixed blend with other grasses. Looking to think it out in the mixed blend and kill off the patches. Willing to try both products, just wanted to get an idea of whether or not there have been any successes. I haven't found any so far, but most end up inconclusive.
> ...


Rates? Multiple apps? Time of year? Thanks!


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Lawn Noob said:


> mooch91 said:
> 
> 
> > Fine fescue control in mixed turf (KBG, TTTF): Has anyone had success with either Tenacity (mesotrione) or Drive (quinclorac) to control fine fescue? I'm dealing with a few big patches (spreading) as well as a mixed blend with other grasses. Looking to think it out in the mixed blend and kill off the patches. Willing to try both products, just wanted to get an idea of whether or not there have been any successes. I haven't found any so far, but most end up inconclusive.
> ...


What was your outcome on tenacity with the fine fescue? What rates did you use?


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

Revisiting this thread to see if @Lawn Noob would reply.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

VALawnNoob said:


> Revisiting this thread to see if @Lawn Noob would reply.


2 apps two weeks apart in summer. The fine fescue sure looked very unhealthy. So much so I overseeded because it was obviously very thin and whispy. It basically turned to straw. I still have some fine fescue, but the tttf is taking ground.


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback. I'm wondering if those of us starting now in start of fall would get similar results without the heat stress you had during summer. Is it fair to say you used standard 0.33 ounce per K of tenacity in each of the app?


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