# SW Florida Bermuda Lawn Rehab - Need Help!!



## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Hey guys, new to the forum. I appreciate any guidance you guys can provide, in advance!

I recently moved to a new home (new to me) in east Bradenton, FL. It's a little over an acre of land, but after you subtract the house, driveway, "natural" brush and vegetation areas, and our location for our pool build, it's about 20000 sqft of actual grass area. (15000 sqft in the front yard and 5000 sqft in the backyard)

Well, I'm being a bit generous with my "grass" wording. It was a massive sea of weeds and some bare spots...

So recently I decided that I'm sick of looking looking at my lawn and wanted to do something about it. I took a scope of the landscape and saw that there were some patches of bermuda sprinkled throughout the yard. I went out and bought a few bags of bermuda seed, watched a few videos on youtube, and then on 5/12 spread out plenty of seed in the front yard. I did this knowing that there was going to be plenty of rain over the next few weeks.

Now, a disclaimer. *I AM A COMPLETE LAWN NOVICE.* And I'm totally ok with that. I want to take this opportunity to learn as much as I can. I assume all of you guys were also novices at some point, so that gives me hope.

Back to my story. A few days after seeding, I got REALLY into watching videos on youtube from several people, including the Lawn Care Nut, Ryan Knorr, Grass Daddy, How To With Doc, and Grass Factor. (On a side note, I found that I live really close to the Lawn Care Nut, so maybe I'll run into him at home depot or something and pick his brain...)

I quickly learned that there is a fairly prescriptive method to taking your lawn from nothing to something, given you perform the essential basics every year.

As the incredibly impatient person I have known to become (great personal trait for watching grass grow), I immediately went out and bought some milorganite and some pre-emergent to throw down. I put Milo all throughout my front yard on 5/16. I've started to see some bermuda sprouts in several places, which is super encouraging, and the existing stuff seems to be getting healthier.

But after watching more videos, I realized that spreading pre-emergents at this particular time of the year and with this much weed coverage perhaps isn't the most value added task at this time, so I have held off (am I right in my line of thinking?).

My plan is to work this season to grow as much grass as I can, get the soil right, and in fall start my weed program in preparation for 2019.

I bought me a used 38" craftsman riding mower (beat up, but it runs. I'll upgrade down the road), and plan to mow frequently.

Lastly, the biggest problem that I face is that I do not have any irrigation throughout my lawn. I know, this is brutal. The only thing that I have going for me is that this is Florida, and from April until September, it rains...and rains...and rains. But relying on nature can be finicky.

Any thoughts on what I should be doing at this particular moment in the spring season, given I hadn't done anything prior to 5/12??? I'm unsure what to do next.

Here is a link to some photos and videos to get an idea: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qxpL88oxhYSpJr0UP_4SrgfXa99Xjhif?usp=sharing

Once again, thanks in advance!!!!

Chris


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

As a fellow noob, this is about a good a way to cover the topic as I've seen:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1651

I think the guidance is, if you haven't put down a pre-emergent then you should, it will help keep new weeds from germinating. Won't really get rid of what is there already. Probably a blanket application of a post emergent like Celsius following the directions for mixing and square footage. I have had great luck with my lawn since finding this forum last year, and all the help people have given me when I wasn't sure about something.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=13
this thread for weed control.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

1/2 acre of lawn. If I were in your position, I would also be figuring out how to spray on 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft uniformly and accurately. Reason why golf courses and sports fields look the way they do is because they have the equipment to do that. Next thing is how to reel cut that much Bermuda. I had dealings with a lawn that size. Biggest game changer for that lawn was a tow behind 8 blade gang reel mower. That enabled the homeowner to mow at less than 1" without gouging into the ground and making holes in the lawn. When a rotary mower blade hits an uneven area, there is normally some kind of hole made that then grows more weeds,


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Thanks for that amazing overview guide. That is very informative!

It sounds like a good idea to put my pre-emergents down ASAP. I currently have some granular Spectracide Weed Stop Crabgrass Preventer at the house.

Any thoughts on if that would be a first good application?

As for the widespread application on a large lawn, I 100% agree that I'll struggle getting a uniform application. I was thinking that if I go granular for the pre-emergent, then I could go liquid for the post-emergent, like Celsius. Maybe if I get a sprayer like this with down marking dye, that would help?

Thanks for the feedback!


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Ok No pre-emergent No No No pre emergent if you just planted seed and want it to grow DO NOT put it down.

I need to know your budget. There is soooo much you can do.

I have a yard your size. It cost me $3500 to have a complete 8 zone sprinkler system installed but this was during construction.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Sorry welcome to TLF. 
Pictures are important and you did a great job in your video showing things to us.
You have so many possibilities it makes me gitty.

1st and foremost. I think you may have been a little hasty with your grass choice. (Ignorance is bliss)
Common Bermuda is ok. I have a variety of common called Yukon and many have riviera. These are the higher quality seeded Bermuda varieties that make your lawn look more golf like. 
Common Bermuda can't be cut as low as hybrid types. But it is cheaper.
Then there is sod that gives you instant grass at an instant drain of your wallet. I was quoted 9k-16k to sod my 22,000 in tiff419 and I live in a cool season grass market. 
I didn't choose that option. 
2) Your trees
You have a very nice yard but you will have to make a serious decision.
A) trees and an OK so so lawn
B) No trees and a Nice lawn
Does the area in between those 2 magnolia trees get any direct sunlight?
Those magnolias would have to go to grow a uniform bermuda lawn if that is what your looking at. Bermuda requires 8 hours of direct sunlight.
The Pine tree in front of your sidewalk and in the large front mulch area could possible stay but don't even think about any grass growing there. Really evaluate how much sunlight you are getting. I bet the areas that have little grass has little sunlight. 
Problem you will have-. Seeding a lawn usually requires more than 1 rain shower a day. Dry areas will struggle. Not enouph sunlight and tree roots taking all the nutrients away from your grass

You have sandy soil that could be easily leveled out like butter. (My lips are smacking wish I had that)

Honestly this is what i would do if I had an endless supply of money. And If I wanted a absolutely breath taking lawn. 
1) Cut and grind up as many trees as your wife will let you. Tell her you have to choose. 
2) Kill everything with Glyphosate and call someone to install an irrigation system. Start watering the dead dirt and Kill everything again.
3) If you want Bermuda then buy the best quality seed you can or sod. St Augustine is an option that definitely is more shade tolerant and might be an option if those trees had to stay. However St Aug is available by sod only and not seed.

If non of this is an option its ok also. But I would not do this- Say hey ill put down Common bermuda now and next year if I want to save up and change stuff I will do it then. Common Bermuda is a beast to get rid of once it is established. So if you have ANY doubt then kill those common bermuda babies now.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Unfortunately I don't have an endless supply of money. Also, if you see the picture, I have very mature trees in the yard, several line trees, one large maple in the middle of the yard, and one large magnolia closer to the house (excuse my handwriting on the iPhone...)

The area near the pines does not get a ton of direct sunlight. So maybe I can get creative an go the route of putting a different, more shade tolerant grass there.

The areas around the other two trees do get quite a bit of sunlight though.

Lastly, I really don't want to go the route of completely killing everything on my yard and starting over. I want to really try hard to build the existing base and eliminate the existing weeds. Im ok with that being a multi-year project. If I wanted to have everything ready now, I could just get sod, but where's the fun in that??


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Then you put your time and money into the materials and equipment needed to maintain the Bermuda. If you are in the process of getting seed to germinate and spread, @Tellycoleman said it. Hold the Preemergent. You may go after emerged weeds a month after the seed has germinated.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

My apologies I missed where you said you had put down seed. I deferre to others way more knowledgeable.. like they said don't put down pre-emergent if you put out seed.


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

That magnolia tree near the house is going to be trouble. Tree roots and foundations don't get along and magnolias are some of the worst. Those roots extend well beyond the drip line of the tree. I would seriously consider taking it down before it gets any larger.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Thank you guys for all of the recommendations.

At the end of the day, I don't think I'm going to get buy-in to take any of these large trees down. I may create more landscaped area that includes those trees, especially the magnolia which is close to the house.

Would you guys recommend a different, more shade/drought tolerant grass type? Maybe Zoysia?


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## TigerinFL (Mar 29, 2018)

Zoysia is nice but starting from seed is going to be expensive and very time consuming. If you want to save yourself some money I'd lay sod when you can.

Just remember it isn't a sprint. It's a long distance race.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Here is an aerial view of my lot. I superimposed the survey on here to give some better definition to the structures on the lot and the boundaries.

*Front Yard (Bottom Side of Picture)*

Like I said earlier, I have been working exclusively on this area. It is roughly 12500 sqft. Everything shown from the house down has been overseeded with two bags of Vigaro Bermuda Grass Seed. I also threw down some Scotts EZ Seed on the very bare portion closer to the street and driveway. This was done on 5/12.

As a reminder, I had no idea what I was doing at this point. Total novice. Looking back on it, I would have certainly gone in a different order, but it is what it is, the deed is done...

In addition, I put five 36-lb bags of Milorganite down in this area, with a little left over for the span on the south side of the house (right side of picture). This was done on 5/16.

*South Side Yard (Right Side of Picture)*

I'm defining this area as everything on the right side of the house in the picture, from the bottom of the house going up. This would include the area on the right of the proposed pool. (you guys like my MS paint skillz?)

Three important aspects of this area:

1) My septic tank is located in this area, and it is elevated a little higher than most of the yard. The drainfield goes toward the street (down).

2) This area directly borders my neighbor's lawn. Long term domination area, needs to have uber focus...

3) There is a drainage ditch in between the two lawns, that feeds to the lake behind our houses. This area does pool with water when it rains, so I don't really know what I should do to manage that, or if I even need to.

*North Side Yard (Left Side of Picture)*

This area is totally covered by driveway & wooden areas. This will be a landscaping project for the next several years, but nothing on the grass side.

*Backyard (Top Side of Picture)*

I'm defining this space as everything east/northeast of proposed pool (top/top-left). It is roughly 5000 sqft of grass space.

This is my grass project playground. There are a bunch of spread out pine trees back here, and some wooded spaces as well. However, there is quite of bit of space that gets direct sunlight for portions of the day (not as much as the front yard).

I would love to start a project back here with something other than bermuda. This is where I'm crowdsourcing with your expertise.

Any thoughts???


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

How big of an area is the start of the first project. You need to spend an off day putting up flags in that area you want to renovate and check every hour. See how many hours of sunlight you have in your renovation area. How many trees. WIll you have any way to water the area.

With the sandy soil you have I dont think anyone is going to recommend laying sod or buying expensive seed without having a means to water the entire renovated area 3-5 times a day for a month.
That needs to be your 1st project. You have to solve that problem 1st and foremost.


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> How big of an area is the start of the first project. You need to spend an off day putting up flags in that area you want to renovate and check every hour. See how many hours of sunlight you have in your renovation area. How many trees. WIll you have any way to water the area.
> 
> With the sandy soil you have I dont think anyone is going to recommend laying sod or buying expensive seed without having a means to water the entire renovated area 3-5 times a day for a month.
> That needs to be your 1st project. You have to solve that problem 1st and foremost.


What Telly said.

Can you pump water out of the lake for irrigation? Grass under the pine trees is going to be a challenge.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> How big of an area is the start of the first project. You need to spend an off day putting up flags in that area you want to renovate and check every hour. See how many hours of sunlight you have in your renovation area. How many trees. WIll you have any way to water the area.


The area in the back is roughly 5000 Sqft. There is a mixture of very shaded areas and lightly shaded areas. The trees above are all pine trees. I currently don't have irrigation in the area. There is a lake behind my house, but I'm fairly certain that I can't "legally" pull out to supply any irrigation system. I do live in Florida, which for 6 months of the year, has a rainstorm basically every day at 3pm, although, that is probably not a great thing to rely on.

What southern grasses do best in partial shade without a standard non-rain water source?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

St Augustine. I recommend it for partially shaded lawns and lawns so big that a triplex reel mower is not in the budget. That can be established by plugging rather than seeding. I avoid seeding any grass when possible.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Is their anything growing there now? In the heavy shaded area?
If the answer is no. Or if you have one or two scattered weeds. Then don't waist your time and money.

Take your idea of afternoon thundershowers out of the picture. How much water actually hits the ground during one. Heavily shaded areas have very little uniform coverage. ( Can you stand under the tree and not get wet?)

Sand already has little nutrients and what nutrients in the ground your trees will compete for and win the battle.

It seems like you really want to do something to have the best of both worlds. Trees and a nice lush lawn.

Without making any changes to your existing landscape. Your success is maybe possible but not very probable. 
I just want someone to tell me before I invest money for sod or other options that will struggle.
There is a lot of strikes against the success unless you change your landscape ( trees)
1) lack of sun
2) sandy soil with competition from trees with nutrients 
3) lack of irrigation. In Florida sandy soils water goes straight down and doesn't sit on the surface very long and in an hour is completely dry again.

With that said you can pick a lightly shaded areas and have your oasis there. However without a way to water your going to have it hard. Alot of people in Florida water more than 1 inch a week because water immediately leaves the soil profile. At least my family in Pensacola does.

Don't mean to be discouraging but I don't wanna hold back either. There is no way I would spend $1000+ dollars on sod without irrigation. I welcome any difference of opinions. And prove me wrong so I can do it at my parents house.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Here are a bunch of pictures from the area to show the current land coverage, and the trees above it. I also took a couple up close pictures to show the weeds, along with some grass.


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## Strohkin (May 17, 2018)

I'm sorry if I'm partially hijacking but it kind of goes with what was being talked about before..

how long after laying bermuda seed (P77 in my case) down should you wait to start spraying Celsius? i threw my seed down on 5/7


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I would think st aug would be your best option in low light or this


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Better than I expected 
+1 on st aug
When trees fill out it might have issues


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

So given how it is looking in current state, and knowing that I haven't touched this area at all, should I thrown down some preemergent, post-emergent, and starter fert? In this way, over time it should only leave whatever current grass is intermixed?


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

General question. If I put a post emergent like Weed Stop for Lawns, how bad will it stunt existing new growth of grass?


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

I need some help identifying some grass.

#1) This is in the backyard, which has moderate shade. Now that I applied some postemergent down, this is the stuff that really sticks out, and seems to be thriving in sun and shade.







#2) This is new growth in the front yard. This was specifically where I threw down Bermuda grass seed, but it is the same as a lot of the new growth all over the yard. This is in direct sunlight all day. I'm hoping that it's Bermuda, but I'm just not sure. It's very thick, and pretty like green compared to the normal green of established Bermuda in my lawn.



#3) This is in the front yard, but in the fairly shaded areas near the maple tree and the magnolia. I'm pretty certain this is a weed of some sort, but it looks ok for now.







Thanks in advance!

Chris


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

I Dont think its bermuda at all Last picture looks like broadleaf weed probably crabgrass.

P.S. you need to sharpen your blades on your mower


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

The more I look at it, #3 might be doveweed. Any takers in that theory?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

ccanad said:


> The more I look at it, #3 might be doveweed. Any takers in that theory?


I'm in the crabgrass camp.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

I ended up buying a battery powered backpack sprayer to help apply a blanket coverage of any liquid product, along with some marking dye. Given the size of my lawn, it's seems like a must to ensure that I hit everything evenly.

When is the best time to put Celsius down? Temperature? Post/pre rain? Post/pre mow? Other factors?


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

ccanad said:


> #2) This is new growth in the front yard. This was specifically where I threw down Bermuda grass seed, but it is the same as a lot of the new growth all over the yard. This is in direct sunlight all day. I'm hoping that it's Bermuda, but I'm just not sure. It's very thick, and pretty like green compared to the normal green of established Bermuda in my lawn.


Ugh, well this turned out to be doveweed, and it completely took over my entire yard. I'm going to be nuking it at some point over the next several weeks, assuming that it's not raining (an every day occurrence these days).

I plan on doing a large application of prodiamine as well.

Any ideas if it's ok to mix Celsius with Prodiamine? Or really any post emergent with a preemergent? I want to cut down on the number of times that I have to do a blanket app to 20K sqft...


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

Does prodiamine offer any pre-em control of doveweed? I can't find anywhere that says it does. I've already asked the question here: but no responses yet. I think I could add Pennant Magnum and Tower to the possible pre-ems for doveweed based on the UF website.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

TSGarp007 said:


> Does prodiamine offer any pre-em control of doveweed? I can't find anywhere that says it does. I've already asked the question here: but no responses yet. I think I could add Pennant Magnum and Tower to the possible pre-ems for doveweed based on the UF website.


That UF link was really helpful. I think I'm going to be nuking my yard pretty soon, and thinking about sprigging bermuda to take hold. Really need to get something down and established to assist preventing rapid growth of doveweed seeds.


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## rhanna (Jun 7, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> Ok No pre-emergent No No No pre emergent if you just planted seed and want it to grow DO NOT put it down.
> 
> I need to know your budget. There is soooo much you can do.
> 
> I have a yard your size. It cost me $3500 to have a complete 8 zone sprinkler system installed but this was during construction.


Who installed your sprinkler system?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Adam landscaping in Smyrna @rhanna


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

ccanad said:


> Ugh, well this turned out to be doveweed, and it completely took over my entire yard. I'm going to be nuking it at some point over the next several weeks, assuming that it's not raining (an every day occurrence these days).
> 
> I plan on doing a large application of prodiamine as well.
> 
> Any ideas if it's ok to mix Celsius with Prodiamine? Or really any post emergent with a preemergent? I want to cut down on the number of times that I have to do a blanket app to 20K sqft...


Update to this whole deal...

I ended up biting the bullet and going at the yard hard. The front yard was mostly doveweed and yellow nutsedge. It was probably 75% those two weeks, and sparse bermuda interwoven.

I put down Prodiamine in early September. I then was able to put down a mix of Celsius and Spectricide Weed Stop (Orange cap w/ Quinchlorac) in early October.

I'm definitely seeing the results, as the nutsedge is all turning brown, and the doveweed is starting to disappear.

This is where I need your help TLF!!!

The weeds are dying (yay!) and the Pre-M should help prevent new weed growth at least for the next few months. It's still very warm here in Florida, in the high 80's at least for the next few weeks, and realistically, we don't really get cold weather here until January.

Would you guys recommend starting to fert blast this lawn to allow the existing bermuda to spread as much as possible over the next few weeks/months? Or, should I be plugging, sprigging, seeding?

Thanks in advance!!!


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

With your pre-em down I would think seed is out of the equation. I was told on another thread that you can plug after pre-em since you are putting the roots below the prodiamine barrier. However I think I remember another thread that discussed Bermuda runners not tacking down in bare areas due to the prodiamine barrier. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in with better advice.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Depends on the pre em. All of them will stop seed. Ronstar can be used when sprigging.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

I used Prodiamine. But that was a month ago


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> Ok No pre-emergent No No No pre emergent


Dude
Dude
Dude

Ok 
At what rate did you put down the pre- emergent. Was it granular or liquid? depending on how much you used it could last 3-6 months
You wont be able to sod since you put down pre-emergent you wont be able to seed because of pre-emergent - you used the wrong kind of pre-emergent to sprig- and if you were going to plug with St augustine (spread by Stolons only) your Pre emergent is going to prevent it from tacking down and spreading.

Honestly I would NOT Kill off anymore weeds. You just hit the pause button on your lawn renovation for 3-6 months. 
You may not like the weeds but it is preventing soil erosion and a muddy mess.
You could try to push fertilizer for the bermuda that you have but it to will be slowed by root prunning depending on how much pre-emergent you used.

Maybe someone else has a different opinion and I hope im wrong


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

ccanad said:


> I used Prodiamine. But that was a month ago


Depending on the dosage, I think you just punted to spring.


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## ccanad (May 24, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > Ok No pre-emergent No No No pre emergent
> ...


I appreciate the concern for my lawn, but I think you're overreacting a little. Your note for no Pre-M was in May, and I didn't put anything down at that time. I think at the time it was the right move, as a had a ton of growth over the summer, both grass and weeds (specifically doveweed). So thanks for that tip then!

The bermuda is interwoven throughout, and it still moving all over the lawn.

I definitely needed to take care of the doveweed issue, as it was spreading everywhere. Putting the Celsius took care of that.

Outside of that, I have been following a combination of the Bermuda Bible and the LCN warm season lawn plan. I think it will turn out fine.


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