# Grass Seed Recommendation for Shade



## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I'm overseeding right after Labor Day and need some recommendations for a dense shade lawn.

I'm in upstate New York in the Albany area and have lots of tall white oaks around my house. I get maybe 3-5 hours of full sunlight per day in the front and back and the rest filtered light through the oak trees.

Someone on the forum recommended TTTF and similar grass types a while back. I've been looking at Jonathan Green's Black Beauty for Dense Shade which is a lot of tall and fine fescue.

http://www.jonathangreen.com/product/dense-shade-grass-seed-mixture.html

Is this good stuff or should I go with only TTTF from a different company?


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Do you have a lot of PRG in there? It's allelopathic and can inhibit newly germinated grass.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I have a mix but with plenty of PRG for sure. And with the shade situation the PRG thins out so much. I'd really hate to have to make that my main grass type....


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Nothing wrong with that seed. Tttf and fine fescue are best for shade.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> Do you have a lot of PRG in there? It's allelopathic and can inhibit newly germinated grass.


So @j4c11 if I overseed with TTTF would I see reduced germination as a result or little to no germination at all?

PRG looks nice, I admit, but with my shade issue it just doesn't work well for me.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

The one caution I'll give you is that I picked up this same seed back in the Spring to temporarily cover trenches from irrigation until I renovated this Fall and there was one TTTF cultivar that had really large wide blades that grew VERY fast. I'm not sure which one it was, but I can snap a photo of it if you'd like. Also, I know that fine fescue is often recommended for the shade, but keep in mind that it can have a tendency to quickly go dormant in any kind of heat and is super persistent. I really hate its dormancy and really wish I had never introduced it into my lawn. I'm much farther south than you, so perhaps someone farther north can comment on its tendency for summer dormancy up your way. If I were you though, I'd just find a couple of shade hardy TTTF cultivars.

[Edited to add 2016 NTEP Carbondale IL top 10]
Here's the top 10 TTTF cultivars from the prelim 2016 results in Carbondale IL (IL2) grown under shade. I'm researching these for myself and will be glad to post back availability if you're interested.


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## MarkAguglia (Jul 13, 2017)

I'm in western NY, PRG grows excellent in the shade. It's my nicest area of grass.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

@MarkAguaglia Really? I keep reading that it isn't ideal for shade or our wonderful upstate NY cold? I think it looks really nice, but I've assumed I needed to overseed with something else...


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Ok I bought 50 pounds of Jonathan Green Black Beauty Ultra. I skipped the Dense Shade mix.

I see mixed reviews. But I also spent a bit more than half what I would have at the seed super store, but that's almost irrelevant considering how much money I've spent already this year.

Good seed choice? Anyone have experience with it?


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

I was just at my local hardware store for some glue and swung through the grass seed section and saw they carry the full Jonathan Green line. What I noticed is that every single blend was a majority of Taos and Tonto tall fescue mixed with various other things. What was in yours? Personally, I'd resist the impulse to grab what's in front of me and instead order a mix of Traverse and 4th Millennium from Preferred. I know that's easier said than done, considering I came really close to ignoring my own advice and grabbing a bag of Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)


Where from?


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Fronta1 said:


> vnephologist said:
> 
> 
> > Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)
> ...


At my local independent hardware store. Looks to be marketed as Southern Belle. Custom blended by Mountain View and distributed by Turf & Garden out of Chesapeake, VA. Blue tagged as well. If you can't order online, I'd be happy to grab a bag and ship to you if needed. Just hit me via PM.


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> > vnephologist said:
> ...


I appreciate that


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Here's the label. I can still return it!!


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I can't find any good pictures of tonto specifically. Is it an undesirable type? I really don't want to get into the wide ugly fescue that some people warned about...


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Other crop is grassy weeds like poa annua and crabgrass. There are 225,000 seeds/lb of fescue and 1,200,000 seeds/lb of bluegrass...

Edit: Actually what matters is the seeds/lb of the undesirables, 800,000/lb for crabgrass, 2,000,000/lb for poa annua

Edit#2 So there's possibly 20k poa annua


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

I doubt any of those fescue varieties will be wide and ugly. My research tells me that they were all developed quite some time ago. That isn't necessarily a bad thing either. However, they won't possess any of the latest qualities bred into more recent cultivars to help them better resist disease, for example. The bag also contains undesirables as Fronta1 indicated. Ultimately, whenever I'm faced with a decision like this, I try to think about how I'll feel about it 6 months from now. Will I look back on it and wish I had taken an additional week to find better seed?


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Ok I'll return this and get something higher end from seed super store or someplace like that.

So now I need to decide if I want to go heavy on the fine fecues or tall fescues. The blends for shady areas in the northeast are all predominantly if not completely fine fescues, which I don't really prefer.

I was looking at this https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100073/ss1002-tall-fescue-shade-blend

Site describes being south of the Mason Dixon - which I am certainly not - but will I be ok with this blend anyway? I prefer that for the specific look that blend will provide.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> I was just at my local hardware store for some glue and swung through the grass seed section and saw they carry the full Jonathan Green line. What I noticed is that every single blend was a majority of Taos and Tonto tall fescue mixed with various other things. What was in yours? Personally, I'd resist the impulse to grab what's in front of me and instead order a mix of Traverse and 4th Millennium from Preferred. I know that's easier said than done, considering I came really close to ignoring my own advice and grabbing a bag of Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker seed on the shelf. ;-)


I agree--check out the NTEP trials for 4th Millennium.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I'm looking at it right now. Looks really nice and has some attractive benefits. I'm still looking for a place to order it online. Seed Super Store has 3rd Millenium.

Do you recommend overseeding with a single cultivar instead of a blend? I already have a blend in the lawn so I guess it really doesn't matter anyway....


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Try here:

https://www.preferredseed.com/detail/index.cfm?nPID=387 (4th millenium)

https://www.preferredseed.com/detail/index.cfm?nPID=388 (Traverse 2 SRP)


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Ok checking out the Preferred Seed website right now. What sort of mix do you guys recommend? 4th Millenium, Traverse, and some low percentage of KBG?


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

phil said:


> Ok checking out the Preferred Seed website right now. What sort of mix do you guys recommend? 4th Millenium, Traverse, and some low percentage of KBG?


I think that's fine. Keep in mind that you won't need much KBG---you're probably looking at 1lb for every 8-9lbs of TTTF. Personally, I would try not to introduce fine fescue if you can get TTTF to grow in the shade. I think Bewitched KBG is shade tolerant. All 3 of those types, 4th/Traverse/Bewitched are produce by Turf Merchants.


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

That one from sss was good. If you want preferred,I would go with cochise over traverse, or both. If you want bg, go with bewitched. It's shade tolerant. (To a degree)


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

While mentioning SSS, I emailed Drew in August about 4th Millennium. He indicated it would be in his TTTF mix in January 2018.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Traverse and 4th are near the top of the latest shade trial. Think I'm gonna use both in my shady back yard. Price goes down with qty, so I assume you could email for a quote with multiple cultivars so price could be calculated from total weight.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I can vouch for Traverse 2 and Falcon IV, they are both doing well in my shaded back yard. 2-3 hours of sun. Nice dark color too.



This was established this spring.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I'm going to get a quote from Preferred for a mix of 50% 4th Millenium, 40% Traverse, and 10% KBG Bewitched. Good plan?


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

phil said:


> I'm going to get a quote from Preferred for a mix of 50% 4th Millenium, 40% Traverse, and 10% KBG Bewitched. Good plan?


 :thumbup:


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Fronta1 said:


> phil said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to get a quote from Preferred for a mix of 50% 4th Millenium, 40% Traverse, and 10% KBG Bewitched. Good plan?
> ...


+1


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> > phil said:
> ...


Agreed!


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

phil said:


> I'm going to get a quote from Preferred for a mix of 50% 4th Millenium, 40% Traverse, and 10% KBG Bewitched. Good plan?


Great plan! I like their prices too.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

This is going to cost right about $340 including shipping....boy that's a lot of money

Sound about right for almost 20k square feet of overseed?


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Actually, that seems pretty cheap. How many pounds of each?


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

75 total and I asked for 50% 4th Millenium Tall Fescue, 40% Traverse Tall Fescue, and 10% Kentucky Blue Bewitched


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

$4.50 a pound for high quality cultivars is very reasonable.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Ok good to know. Actually the seed is only $4/pound without the cost of shipping

I'll place the order today and return this Jonathan Green nonsense I have in my trunk


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

phil said:


> Ok good to know. Actually the seed is only $4/pound without the cost of shipping
> 
> I'll place the order today and return this Jonathan Green nonsense I have in my trunk


 :thumbup:


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

I was doing a little similar digging for myself and turned up Newsom in MD possibly with 4th Millennium. I wasn't sure if they only sold wholesale though. Searching for Newsom here doesn't yield any results, but a search over at the other forum turns up some folks indicating that they're only wholesale and some that seemed to have purchased. I reached out to two of their sales folks to check on seed availability and, if in-stock, if we could purchase at any mimimum.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Order placed. Good people over at Preferred.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

phil said:


> 75 total and I asked for 50% 4th Millenium Tall Fescue, 40% Traverse Tall Fescue, and 10% Kentucky Blue Bewitched


Phil, will you be doing any sections of just 4th/Traverse/KBG or will it simply be an overseed of the whole yard?
I want to do a section of my front next year with the 4th/Traverse blend and was curious about the look.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

I will be overseeding the whole yard but there are two decent-sized sections (each one probably about 400 square feet or so) that will be pure. They're areas with little to no grass right now that I will be building up with new soil and seeding heavily. I'll take lots of pics


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

I hate to tell you but you might be a little short. Overseeing rates for tttf are 4-5 lbs/k. That's 80-100 lbs for 20k sq ft(the kbg is negligible) and that's not including the 1k sq ft of reseeding. Not to mention it's a good idea to have 10 or 20 lb extra. :roll:

Edit: you can use that but go light, like 3 lbs/k


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

Crap. Maybe I'll just see if they can bump it to 100 pounds before shipping today. If not I'll section off an area in the back and do it in a couple weeks after getting more.


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## mtlcafan79 (Apr 27, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> I was doing a little similar digging for myself and turned up Newsom in MD possibly with 4th Millennium. I wasn't sure if they only sold wholesale though. Searching for Newsom here doesn't yield any results, but a search over at the other forum turns up some folks indicating that they're only wholesale and some that seemed to have purchased. I reached out to two of their sales folks to check on seed availability and, if in-stock, if we could purchase at any mimimum.


I've bought from Newsom. Walked in. Payed cash. No problems. As long as you don't mind increments of 50lb bags you should be fine.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

mtlcafan79 said:


> vnephologist said:
> 
> 
> > I was doing a little similar digging for myself and turned up Newsom in MD possibly with 4th Millennium. I wasn't sure if they only sold wholesale though. Searching for Newsom here doesn't yield any results, but a search over at the other forum turns up some folks indicating that they're only wholesale and some that seemed to have purchased. I reached out to two of their sales folks to check on seed availability and, if in-stock, if we could purchase at any mimimum.
> ...


Yeah, not so relevant to this particular thread any longer, but I did hear back and was told to contact Perry @ 1-800-553-2719 for phone orders. He doesn't have 4th Millennium or Traverse 2, but he does have a couple 50lb bags of Raptor III. I'm seriously considering since I haven't found it elsewhere.


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

My seed already arrived! One day!


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

One of two bags


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

phil said:


> One of two bags


It's like Christmas!!!


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## chrisben (Sep 11, 2017)

Phil, please follow up with photos of how this goes for you. Looks like I'm nearby and have a yard that's largely shaded by trees. I've got some serious leveling work to do in the spring, hoping that a aeration and rolling can help somewhat, but after that I'll be in the market for some seed, would be nice to see how this is growing for you!

Thanks,
Chris


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## phil (Jul 24, 2017)

For a follow-up, I started a new thread here http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1174

I will add more pics once I see germination or start a new thread altogether. This is an 18,000 square foot overseed and a 2,000 square foot *new* seed.


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