# Trouble Growing Grass in Difficult Lanscape



## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Hello all,

I moved to my current home in northern Illinois a few years ago and have been trying to restore the lawn since then. The property is almost an acre with about 30 mature oak trees providing almost complete shade, though the canopy is 50 to 100 ft up, so plenty of reflected light below. The yard was taken over by clover and violet when I moved in, but I managed to get rid of most of it. Now, I'm left with intermittently bare dirt and can't get grass to grow where the weeds died. The soil is very dry and compact due what I assume is decades of no aeration and frequent lawn tractor use in heavy clay soils with lots of tree roots soaking up the good stuff. I've been aerating and overseeding with shade mix twice a year. Fertilizers and weed killer applications too. All of this was done previously by professionals, but I'm taking it on from here and don't really know what to do about the grass apart from more seed and fertilizer. The grass just isn't taking. Is this a hopeless task? Or perhaps the drought from last year slowed things down a bit for me? Any insight would be most appreciated. I would love to not roll my ankle on my lumpy half grass/half hard dirt lawn.

Thank you,
Michael


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Can you post a few pictures?


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Sure - photos attached. Upon further inspection, grass looks the same in some of the full sun areas as well. In particular, right next to my neighbor's perfect grass.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That amount for shade will be a problem in the fall. Right now I would give it nitrogen to get it thick before the leaves block the sun.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Thanks for the advice, I'll do that.

Fall brings a whole different set of problems, but that's for another time.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

How much does it cost to cut a tree down in Chicago?


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## Bman1 (Dec 8, 2018)

Have you had the soil tested? Aeration and lime application may be in your future.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

You can try poa supina too. It's expensive and germinates slowly, but it seems to survive.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

My yard is actually similar. I'm trying a top application of organic matter, some rolling and added soil to try to make it flatter (mine had a lot of holes dug in it recently), and then mechanical core aeration. I'll be posting as I get around to those things.


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## creediddy2021 (Mar 27, 2021)

I would recommend that you cut down and grind the trees to allow more sunlight into your backyard. Also, think about it....you can't really enjoy your backyard since the trees are in the way. I bet these trees were planted 15-20 years ago as it was ideal at that time to create privacy. If you really want a deep green lawn something has to give. I had 4 big trees in my backyard and the amount of light that I am getting on my lawn missing for those 4.5 years gives my backyard something to wake up to every day. I think planting large trees around the peremiter of your property is ideal rather than in the middle of your backyard.


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## Cluelessone (Sep 23, 2020)

God, what I wouldn't give for even one of those mature oaks!! You can't buy that age, wow!

That said, there are quite a few there! Kind of cool, but kind of annoying. In the photo looking into the back yard, which way are you facing? That will help determine if there's one or a few that can get taken out for maximum impact.

I'd give a heavy heavy aeration (with removing the plugs) a try first, with some organic matter added back in.

What kind of clay is "heavy clay"? I have two distinct types in my backyard (NW Indiana, not far from you). One is a problem, the other is not.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Thank you for the replies, everyone. My responses are below.



KoopHawk said:


> How much does it cost to cut a tree down in Chicago?


I understand trees this size would cost $2000-$3000 each. Not really an option and I wouldn't want to take them down without good reason.



Bman1 said:


> Have you had the soil tested? Aeration and lime application may be in your future.


I've been aerating twice a year. Soil test is a good next step, thanks.



Lawndress said:


> You can try poa supina too. It's expensive and germinates slowly, but it seems to survive.


An expensive niche species of grass is my last resort if nothing else works. I haven't looked into it yet, so thank you for the recommendation.



Lawndress said:


> My yard is actually similar. I'm trying a top application of organic matter, some rolling and added soil to try to make it flatter (mine had a lot of holes dug in it recently), and then mechanical core aeration. I'll be posting as I get around to those things.


I think organic matter would really help, I'm sure of it. I'm just not interested in that kind of labor plus $500 of compost for nearly an acre of land. Still considering it for next year of nothing helps this year.



creediddy2021 said:


> I would recommend that you cut down and grind the trees to allow more sunlight into your backyard. Also, think about it....you can't really enjoy your backyard since the trees are in the way. I bet these trees were planted 15-20 years ago as it was ideal at that time to create privacy. If you really want a deep green lawn something has to give. I had 4 big trees in my backyard and the amount of light that I am getting on my lawn missing for those 4.5 years gives my backyard something to wake up to every day. I think planting large trees around the peremiter of your property is ideal rather than in the middle of your backyard.


At over $2000 per tree, that would be unaffordable. These trees are well over 100 years old - some probably over 200 years old, so I think just out of appreciation for the native landscape, I would rather keep them even if it were feasible to remove them.



Cluelessone said:


> God, what I wouldn't give for even one of those mature oaks!! You can't buy that age, wow!
> 
> That said, there are quite a few there! Kind of cool, but kind of annoying. In the photo looking into the back yard, which way are you facing? That will help determine if there's one or a few that can get taken out for maximum impact.
> 
> What kind of clay is "heavy clay"? I have two distinct types in my backyard (NW Indiana, not far from you). One is a problem, the other is not.


Thanks, that's what drew me to the property as well - they are quite majestic. That view is facing south. No idea what kind of clay, but about 6 inch below gray dry soil, it looks to be a tan/orange color and is heavy/dense.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Poa supina is totally worth it. Takes forever to grow in, though. I have a big patch in front.

If you have 6" of topsoil that's high in organic matter, that's great. Lawn under trees begs for irrigation though.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Lawndress said:


> Poa supina is totally worth it. Takes forever to grow in, though. I have a big patch in front.
> 
> If you have 6" of topsoil that's high in organic matter, that's great. Lawn under trees begs for irrigation though.


I'll definitely be reading up on that grass. Its a comfort to hear that the soil might be healthy - in fact, we do get a ton of mushrooms at various times of the year, which I understand to indicate healthy soil. But mid summer it is a barren wasteland of cracked dry soil. Maybe a sprinkler system is the answer... Thoughts?


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

MJBlackowicz said:


> Lawndress said:
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> 
> > Poa supina is totally worth it. Takes forever to grow in, though. I have a big patch in front.
> ...


I would have it done wrong on purpose. Rather than trying to get the proper coverage (and potentially killing your trees), you can have it run at a distance between the trees with less than ideal coverage. It will still be a lot easier than dragging hoses. But you'd be surprised at how much space a hose can cover.

You may be able to see the tripod sprinkler that I use. It's the best I've found so far. I keep visiting the forum after dark, so my pics aren't the greatest. .


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

The nasty area right there is over where an old hemlock came out. The soil has just been incredibly terrible there, and the shade is bad, but I'm hoping to get it into shape this year. I'll add a pic tomorrow if I remember of the poa supina patch.


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## johnklein25 (Apr 22, 2021)

Those trees are beautiful! I would keep the lower branches 20 feet or more off the ground but I wouldn't cut any of them down. Wait for the soil test and see where your pH and other numbers come in. Let the pH and other results and your budget guide your decisions.

You may want to take a "fairway and rough" approah if you have that many square feet under those oaks. Maybe part of that area closest to your house can be the fairway where you manage the soil and irrigate a shade tolerant TTF or poa supina? Maybe the other part farther away cold be made into a low maintenance "shade garden" with ferns and shade loving plants and some chewing or creeping red fescue to fill in for grass where you can let that chewings grow really tall.

According to the "Tommy Tester" you tube channel, the Nelson traveling sprinkler might be something to consider for irrigating some of that shady area. I also have a neighbor that uses one on their big shady yard. https://youtu.be/MMg-FqxBAkc


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

I am assuming you don't want to cut the trees (personally, I wouldn't!), so if the shade is fairly dense, your only grass options are the fine fescues - red, Chewings, hard and sheep fescue. Some tall fescue cultivars are also shade tolerant and could be mixed in to provide some drought tolerance - needed with the trees sucking up a lot of the water. What exactly is in the shade mixes you used to overseed? Note that some of the cheaper shade mixes sold in stores can be as much as 40% perennial ryegrass - not a very shade tolerant nor drought tolerant grass!

The first thing I would do is get a soil test that includes a test for percentage of organic matter. If your OM is low, I would bring in a load of compost and topdress about 2-3 inches before seeding, no higher and not too close to the tree trunks as that could be detrimental to the trees. Seed in late summer so you will have some good growth before leaves fall.

And if you do decide to bring in something to topdress, get compost, not topsoil. "Topsoil" can be........anything that came from the top of the ground and may be no better than what you have in your soil. I don't know about your area, but I can bring in 10 yds of compost here for about $500 including delivery. I then wheelbarrow it and spread it around.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Lawndress said:


> MJBlackowicz said:
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Investing in a good sprinkler is probably a better alternative to an in-ground system. Thanks for the suggestion.

That's some beautiful landscaping and I see aspects of my own property in yours. What type of shrubs/bushes am I looking at there along the house and the driveway/walkway?


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

johnklein25 said:


> Those trees are beautiful! I would keep the lower branches 20 feet or more off the ground but I wouldn't cut any of them down. Wait for the soil test and see where your pH and other numbers come in. Let the pH and other results and your budget guide your decisions.
> 
> You may want to take a "fairway and rough" approah if you have that many square feet under those oaks. Maybe part of that area closest to your house can be the fairway where you manage the soil and irrigate a shade tolerant TTF or poa supina? Maybe the other part farther away cold be made into a low maintenance "shade garden" with ferns and shade loving plants and some chewing or creeping red fescue to fill in for grass where you can let that chewings grow really tall.
> 
> According to the "Tommy Tester" you tube channel, the Nelson traveling sprinkler might be something to consider for irrigating some of that shady area. I also have a neighbor that uses one on their big shady yard.


Thank you! The lower branches are probably 30+ ft up - I had most of them trimmed last year. Soil test seems like the next step according to everyone here - I'll do that this spring.

Agreed - this approach is a plan in the works. I'm considering putting a shade garden and fire pit in the middle where I have 4 trees pretty close together (and very little grass) with a border garden along the fence and walkway between.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Deadlawn said:


> I am assuming you don't want to cut the trees (personally, I wouldn't!), so if the shade is fairly dense, your only grass options are the fine fescues - red, Chewings, hard and sheep fescue. Some tall fescue cultivars are also shade tolerant and could be mixed in to provide some drought tolerance - needed with the trees sucking up a lot of the water. What exactly is in the shade mixes you used to overseed? Note that some of the cheaper shade mixes sold in stores can be as much as 40% perennial ryegrass - not a very shade tolerant nor drought tolerant grass!
> 
> The first thing I would do is get a soil test that includes a test for percentage of organic matter. If your OM is low, I would bring in a load of compost and topdress about 2-3 inches before seeding, no higher and not too close to the tree trunks as that could be detrimental to the trees. Seed in late summer so you will have some good growth before leaves fall.
> 
> And if you do decide to bring in something to topdress, get compost, not topsoil. "Topsoil" can be........anything that came from the top of the ground and may be no better than what you have in your soil. I don't know about your area, but I can bring in 10 yds of compost here for about $500 including delivery. I then wheelbarrow it and spread it around.


The trees are definitely staying. I've been using tall/fine fescue mix (no ryegrass) for bare patches and plan to use a sun/shade blend that includes annual ryegrass for overseeding this year just to help fill in, even if only temporary. I'll check to make sure it doesn't include perennial ryegrass and maybe go back to exchange the seed for something more shade tolerant.

Soil test is definitely a next step for this spring. $500 for 10 yds sounds about right here as well, though I don't know how far 10 yds would get me at 2-3 inches depth. Might cover the back yard. Its something I'm still thinking about for sure, but we will see what the soil test says.


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## creediddy2021 (Mar 27, 2021)

I think some of the people's comments about your backyard are that the trees consume your entire backyard. I can't imagine the fall of the year...LOL! It would take you at least 2-3 days to clean up all of the leaves. Probably at least minimum 50 bags of leaves for garage pick up...


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

creediddy2021 said:


> I think some of the people's comments about your backyard are that the trees consume your entire backyard. I can't imagine the fall of the year...LOL! It would take you at least 2-3 days to clean up all of the leaves. Probably at least minimum 50 bags of leaves for garage pick up...


Or shred and comost them or use them for mulch.


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

Your trees are magnificent. If it were me, I'd accept the trade-off and enjoy the shade.

That being said, I see a few that could be eliminated and still leave plenty of shade, particularly a few in the middle of the back and closest to the house. If you can sell the wood, it might offset some of the cost. Your local ag extension office should be able to refer you to a forester who could help you determine what the timber is worth.

Traveling sprinklers are great, but the plastic parts wear out and need to have the guts replaced somewhat regularly. If I were going to get another one, I'd spring for a cast iron one from National Walking Sprinkler.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

tam said:


> Your trees are magnificent. If it were me, I'd accept the trade-off and enjoy the shade.


^^^This!!!!!



tam said:


> .........If I were going to get another one, I'd spring for a cast iron one from National Walking Sprinkler.


They are out of business:

https://www.nationalwalkingsprinkler.com/


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

MJBlackowicz said:


> Lawndress said:
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Up the walkway is a very bad idea. Lol. Those are blue prince/princess hollies, and with the low light, the took 8 years to get that big. 8. Don't do it.

New bushes against the house are camellias. I've have a tremendously great experience with them in zone 7, if I'm careful about the variety. Look for ones that work for your zone and bush up nicely. Gotta shape them right after they bloom because they set next year's blossom fast.

The big chartreuse one is a shade tolerant conifer that actually lives up to the name, buuuut I'm about to kill it for more camellias.

There are Autumn Sunset azaleas in a line in front of the camellias. Be careful about the variety. Some only work in mixed borders and not foundations. I wouldn't replant Autumn Twist against the foundation again. (It's out of view farther along the house.)

I also have an Endless Summer hydrangea (out of view) and DO NOT recommend it as a foundation shrub because you can't cut it down to the ground in winter since it blooms on old as well as new wood and it leafs out slowly, so it looks terrible for months and months. Do a smooth hydrangea that blooms only on new wood.

This is the other side of the driveway:



It's got tons of daffodils that look awesome for a couple of months, along with hyacinths and grape hyacinths. Then the alternating cherry and crabapple trees kick in, along with the azaleas--I have PJM and Olga Mezitt rhodos along the fence that are new. Just now all the bluebells are blooming, which I didn't get a pic of before I left town. Next will be a long dead space and then the peonies and then the oriental lilies and then the astilbes and finally I'm slowly filling in with Japanese anemones, but they like to die before they're established. I'm filling in the dead spaces with Asiatic lilies and fragrant reblooming day lilies. I'm also thinking of dumping in some Rudbeckia because they boom there, too.

I just want the driveway beds to be more charming.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Whoops. The pic was before the PJM azaleas. Lol. Only the Olgas were in.

There are also yucca from the previous owner that I still haven't fully dug up. I don't dislike them. They just literally never bloom in the shade. Never.


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

> They are out of business:


Well, that's too bad. I guess I should say, then, if I were going to buy another one, I'd try to find a used cast iron one.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

They are out of business:

https://www.nationalwalkingsprinkler.com/
[/quote]

Well, that's too bad. I guess I should say, then, if I were going to buy another one, I'd try to find a used cast iron one.
[/quote]

Fleabay may be an option there.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

creediddy2021 said:


> I think some of the people's comments about your backyard are that the trees consume your entire backyard. I can't imagine the fall of the year...LOL! It would take you at least 2-3 days to clean up all of the leaves. Probably at least minimum 50 bags of leaves for garage pick up...


I mulch them, bag them, and dump the mulch into the gardens. I have to mulch a few times a week and bag once a week to keep up, otherwise the leaves get so high that they just get pushed around by the front axle. It's a well thought out process through much trial and error. Ultimately the reason a bought a new lawn tractor - for the leaves, not for the grass.


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## MJBlackowicz (Apr 19, 2021)

Lawndress said:


> MJBlackowicz said:
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Thank you! I'll see what I can do with this advice as it applies to zone 5. I love rhododendrons, but I'm not a responsible plant owner, so mine all died in the first year. I'll keep trying though.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

MJBlackowicz said:


> Thank you! I'll see what I can do with this advice as it applies to zone 5. I love rhododendrons, but I'm not a responsible plant owner, so mine all died in the first year. I'll keep trying though.


Rhodos definitely have some special needs. They need acid soil and they won't do well in full sun. They are a forest understory plant, so they love shade, although they will bloom best with morning sun and afternoon shade. Afternoon sun should definitely be avoided. They have shallow roots, so the soil around them should never be cultivated. And if any of those trees are oaks, rhodos love oak leaves around them.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

MJBlackowicz said:


> Lawndress said:
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I have a Law of the Jungle approach to gardening myself. Lol. I have an acre of yard (.75 of lawn) and insanely massive flowerbeds because I am a lunatic, so it's how I stay sane.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> MJBlackowicz said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you! I'll see what I can do with this advice as it applies to zone 5. I love rhododendrons, but I'm not a responsible plant owner, so mine all died in the first year. I'll keep trying though.
> ...


This is for that oak lawn--good shade. Where I live, you can hardly kill a rhodo in high shade.......once it's established. But they are persnickety until then. I lost my expensive new one last year, but 11 cheapies form walmart survived. My walmart rhodos have actually always been great. But I do research varieties first pretty often.

What's most frustrating about planting in my yard is that it takes dozens of shrubs to look like I've done anything.  The trials of a huge yard.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Lawndress said:


> This is for that oak lawn--good shade. Where I live, you can hardly kill a rhodo in high shade.......once it's established. But they are persnickety until then. *I lost my expensive new one last year, but 11 cheapies form walmart survived. * My walmart rhodos have actually always been great. But I do research varieties first pretty often.


There is a saying which goes.............plant a $5 plant in a $50 hole and you will soon have a $50 plant. Plant a $50 plant in a $5 hole and you will soon have a DEAD plant.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> Lawndress said:
> 
> 
> > This is for that oak lawn--good shade. Where I live, you can hardly kill a rhodo in high shade.......once it's established. But they are persnickety until then. *I lost my expensive new one last year, but 11 cheapies form walmart survived. * My walmart rhodos have actually always been great. But I do research varieties first pretty often.
> ...


Except that's not even true. The dead one was planted in a nice bed. The living ones were sometimes only hammered half into the ground because of shallow and huge roots!

Studies have shown that amending the planting hole usually does more harm that goods discouraging roots to spread out.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Lawndress said:


> Studies have shown that amending the planting hole usually does more harm that goods discouraging roots to spread out.


This is controversial and there are still conflicting studies on this. Furthermore, even if true, if a soil is really barren, a young plant may not get a chance to get to where the roots will spread past the planting hole before it will perish.

I have planted multiple trees/plants using both methods and I have a much greater rate of success when I amend the planting hole. The key is to make amendments no greater than one third of the back fill and to dig a planting hole at least twice as large in diameter as the existing roots. By the time the plants recover from transplant shock and the roots get out to the edges of the planting hole, they are not going to just turn a corner there and circle unless there is severe compaction in the surrounding soil.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> Lawndress said:
> 
> 
> > Studies have shown that amending the planting hole usually does more harm that goods discouraging roots to spread out.
> ...


I've planted prolly 150 trees and shrubs on my property. It's too big to easily baby most shrubs, but I've only lost 4 that I have babied and probably...10 or 15 overall? All of my losses except those 4 have been from planting shrubs in way too much shade (I'm an optimist) or deer browse damage or (loropetalum) being optimistic about the zone I'm in. I haven't lost any to transplant shock except maybe that rhodo even though I used to buy all my shrubs off the "sad cart" at the hardware store as I was getting familiar with the zone. I stick 'em in dirt, throw some water on them, and they mostly grow. Others sulk then grow.

(I don't count the very expensive slow growing clumping bamboo I literally chopped into tiny pieces and planted to save money. I expected to have 50 percent mortality or more there, and more came through than I expected.)

The 4, though, were all from the same nursery. Including that rhodo. I'm done with the nursery for anything but supplies. 3 had a nasty disease that only became apparent later. I don't know what was wrong with the rhodo. The high shade it went into was ideal, and its replacement is as happy as mud.

I've killed more shrubs by deciding I don't like them where they are and slaughtering them in place or attempting to transplant them.  My neighbor has gotten a lot of free shrubs, though.... You'd be astonished how well a happy shrub can transplant even if its root ball has been mostly destroyed as long as you put it in a place it likes. If you move it to a marginal place, you can kiss it goodbye, though.


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