# Live Oak's Lawn Journal



## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Welcome to my lawn journal. I'm a DIY-oriented homeowner in the Houston area who has really gotten into lawn care since moving from a townhouse with no lawn to a ranch-style house with ~3000 sqft of lawn space. I've lurked on TLF for quite some time and have learned a ton in the process. The purpose of this journal is to share my experiences so that others can learn things that they can apply to their own lawn, and to document seasonal progress and obstacles so that I can be prepared in the following years. I'll add some pictures in time, but just to start with the lawn specs:

- Front lawn size and grass: ~1500 sqft, ~80% Floratam SA, ~20% Bermuda
- Back lawn size and grass: ~1500 sqft, 100% Floratam SA

Equipment:
- Fiskers 18'' reel mower
- Toro 22'' rotary mower
- Hand-me-down edger and blower

Fertilizer and Chemicals:
- Milorganite (primary fertilizer)
- Prodiamine (pre-emergent herbicide)
- MSM (post-emergent herbicide, going to replace with Celsius once finished)
- Dismiss (post-emergent herbicide for sedges)
- 3336F (fungicide)
- Talstar biphenthrin (insecticide)
- BT (insecticide for worms)

Timeline:
April: move in. Lawn is in great shape, but decide to apply weed and feed (rookie mistake) in case the previous owner did not fertilize.

May-June: all good, no problems.

July: fertilize with Milorganite in front and back. Notice lawn moths starting to appear in the back yard. I will later learn the hard way that I have a sod webworm infestation. The back lawn is starting to get patchy where the worms are feeding. No real weed problems, just thin and patchy turf.

August: the front lawn is also showing signs of webworm injury. At first I think it's chinch bug damage and apply Talstar to affected areas. Luckily for me biphenthrin controls sod webworms too. However, Virginia Buttonweed and Dollarweed quickly colonize in the webworm-injured turf (front yard only), prompting me to spray MSM over the area.

Early September: I come back after a week-long vacation to find that half my front lawn has been consumed by webworms. There is a little bit of discoloration in the weeds I sprayed with the MSM, but there are plenty of new weeds that took over as the webworms ate the turf. I immediately put down BT and alternate with Talstar every week - it is clear that one spray does not eliminate webworms; repeated applications are needed for full control.

Mid September: it has been a couple weeks since spraying MSM and I'm not seeing a lot of change in the Buttonweed. I decide to do a little experiment (partially out of frustration) and hit one Buttonweed patch with glyphosate. Within a couple days it gets roasted, but leaves a bare spot behind. I'm hoping some turf will colonize there soon.

Late September: Houston receives ~11 inches of rain over 4 days with the passage of TS Beta. The original forecast was a much more reasonable 2-4 inches, so I had put down Prodiamine granular ahead of time. My lawn holds water pretty well (does not run off) so hopefully it stayed intact, but maybe not. I guess we'll find out by the amount of Poa I get in the winter.

This past week: the rain has done wonders for both the front and back lawn. There was a bit of chlorosis yellowing from all the rain but it has greened up nicely with the sun coming out. Still doing weekly biphen apps and the turf is finally coming in. The MSM finally seems to be working on the Buttonweed, especially after a follow-up app. I regret using Round-up, but glad I kept it to one patch.

Today: I find a couple patches of Green Kyllinga in the back yard and hit them, along with some dollarweed in the front yard, with Dismiss. Will update in a couple days with the progress. Apparently sulfentrazone kicks in very quickly for a selective post-emergent (a couple days instead of a couple weeks).


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Great write-up! Make sure you rotate the Clearys with something else! Resistance risk is high with thiophanate-methyl.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

@ionicatoms Thanks, good to know. I was planning on adding DiseaseEx (Azoxystrobin) and Eagle 20EW to the rotation soon.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

:thumbup: those are the 3 modes of action I use.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Updates with pictures.

Here are the front and back yards currently.




Front yard at the height of webworm damage.



Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) is making quick work of Green Kyllinga (picture below), but does not seem to be as effective on dollarweed and clover. It's only been 5 days since application, so I'll give it another week or two before full judgment.



I think my biggest issue now is that there are patches in the front yard with thin St. Aug blades and a lot of dried up blades surrounding them, giving the area a general brownish color. Not sure if this is brown patch or plain old drought. We haven't had a drop of rain in 10 days and the forecasts show nothing on the horizon for the next week. I just irrigated 0.5'' yesterday morning, but didn't seem to help. Also applied 3336F a week ago, which didn't really improve anything. Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Bit of bookkeeping here so I remember application rates for my spring pre-emergent (mid to late Feb?)...

Applied Prodiamine granular at a rate of 4.5 lbs/1000 sq ft, keeping it slightly under the 10 lbs/1000 sqft maximum annual limit (two apps of course). Per instructions, I put my Scott's spreader on level 3.5 and found that it was much too slow, indicating that either I was walking too fast or my spreader sucks. If I don't upgrade my spreader by next spring, I will need to adjust the spreading level higher.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I sold my Scotts DLX because it, essentially, dropped product right between the wheels. I was walking that stupid thing all over my lawn like a drop spreader. Drove me crazy.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> I sold my Scotts DLX because it, essentially, dropped product right between the wheels. I was walking that stupid thing all over my lawn like a drop spreader. Drove me crazy.


I noticed the same thing with my spreader, especially when getting towards the end of the application. Any recommendations for an upgrade?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I'd say the next step up from Scotts is the Echo RB-60. I have this one and it is meeting all of my needs very well. It has very favorable reviews, but I don't think it would really the best choice if you need to spread lime, salt, or seed.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Quick update: Dismiss does indeed work against clover, but it takes a little longer (10-14 days) to see effects in comparison to sedge/kyllinga (5-7 days). I'll probably pull the trigger on getting Celsius within the next week or two... I'm hoping Celsius and Dismiss will keep me happy for a long time.


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Hey Live Oak,

I also have a pretty big sod webworm issue in houston. Just curious, What brand BT did you get and how do you prepare it? Also did u see good results from it alone ? Based on my research BT doesn't last long in the lawn!!


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

tragiclawn said:


> Hey Live Oak,
> 
> I also have a pretty big sod webworm issue in houston. Just curious, What brand BT did you get and how do you prepare it? Also did u see good results from it alone ? Based on my research BT doesn't last long in the lawn!!


I used Monterey BT (link below). I diluted it with water in a hand pump sprayer and applied to the whole lawn. I got good results, but bear in mind it will take a week or two of new growth before you see a difference. I strongly recommend applying near sunset as webworms feed at night. You are correct that BT is poorly preserved on foliage - during a bad infestation you will need to apply at least once a week, probably twice.

Do you know if webworms are this bad every year? I moved to Houston earlier this year.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Monterey-B-T-Caterpillar-Killer-LG6336/309727657?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP-71700000041058679-58700004692201302-92700055951060215&gclid=CjwKCAjwlbr8BRA0EiwAnt4MTo7qC5-xAQIXyADmP3_KmPtIXv6c_PwYT5PW7r5EvB2unCtgJbTT9RoCi_oQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Live Oak said:


> Do you know if webworms are this bad every year? I moved to Houston earlier this year.


Webworms were severe all over the southeast this year. I assume it is correlated with a mild winter.


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Live Oak said:


> tragiclawn said:
> 
> 
> > Hey Live Oak,
> ...


This is my first year in my own house and lawn in houston. From my understanding sod webworms are always bad. I think it is just really worse if u have shade from trees as well..


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

What a difference a week makes. I'm not sure whether it was the azoxystrobin or rainfall, but the lawn is looking much fuller and greener. The areas that I thought were brown patch fungus quickly greened up after receiving ~1'' of rain, suggesting that they were in fact caused by drought stress (3 weeks without any measurable precipitation). If true, this says something about the efficacy of my sprinkler.

Given that the lawn is no longer stressed and rainfall is unlikely for the next several days, I'm going to spot spray with Celsius later today. I'll be hitting the usual suspects: virginia buttonweed, dollarweed, yellow woodsorrel, and spurge.


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Hey @Live Oak ,

you have a nice big lawn just like me! That backyard looks great. I also noticed the same green up efffect after throwning down azoxystrobin. I think the fungus is really hindering the grass from perking up to it's fullest potentional. I plan on laying down another fungicide since i still see some gray leaf spot scattered throughout out yard. I'm going to lay down this today.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/BioAdvanced-32-oz-Ready-to-Spray-Fungus-Control-for-Lawns-701270/202529163?g_store=6838&source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_1_CHEMICALS-MULTI-NA-Feed-LIA-NA-NA-BASE_SHP-71700000041086586-58700005116794154-92700044875629673&gclid=Cj0KCQjwuL_8BRCXARIsAGiC51B9yWK9_4hxC_HQZedy__8XQWzcxqkp2UECGztUkDXi_Ljc3Ud1a5QaAtQ2EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

BTW, Here is my backyard.



The bottom right bare/dead spot is from either a fungicide i didn't catch or sod web worm damage ( not sure which ). Also in the bottom right are 2 pieces of sod i just laid down and there was some space which i filled with soil + compost since i didn't line things up perfectly which is just hard!


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Hey @Live Oak ,

I was reading up above about your journal. After the sod web worm damage i would do some raking to cleanup all the dead grass acting as thatch. This will make the green pop better as well and prevent. Also if you leave it there any products u apply wont be able to touch the soil as easily. Also, it will leave an environment for fungus to thrive in.

Also, one of the picture above u shows https://i.postimg.cc/W1fHCF4C/thumbnail-IMG-5844.jpg looks like your water needs some water. It's hard to tell since i cannot zoom in but it looks like your blades are starting to fold in order to reduce the surface area of the blades so less sunlight hits the grass which is a sign of lack of water and stress. I cannot find a good picture but this is what they will do when they need water.



People say grass also turns bluish grey but i've never seen that happen or atleast my eye's cannot recognize it!


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Live Oak Beautiful yard. How did the MSM spray in the high August temps fare? I've always heard recommendations against spraying near trees with MSM.

I have a bunch of celsius. Bought the 10 oz bottle and have given away 4 oz so I can sell you 2 oz if you want for $30. Live in Houston too but if we decided to ship it would be like $8 more. Also have a shit ton of Prodiamine, Blindside, and maybe some other stuff if you need some of that. It's hard buying chemicals for my 2000SF lawn and not getting a lifetime supply :lol: :lol: :lol:

not trying to hijack but @tragiclawn I have been reading this forum in regards to leafspot and the active ingredient in the product you linked is propiconazole which is a DMI fungicide that could increase the pressure of the disease.

Here is good article that talks about the diseases and fungicide treatment

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agcomm/pubs/ppa/ppa1/ppa1.pdf

Cleary 3336F would be a good option with AI of Thiophanate-methyl 41.25%. Seems like that is a good choice for St. Aug grass based on this bookmarked topic I always like to refer to

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4683

Good thing about leaf spot though is it's not a huge deal and usually goes away by itself

https://ktrh.iheart.com/featured/gardenline-with-randy-lemmon/content/2018-06-05-controlling-gray-leaf-spot/


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

@tragiclawn

Thanks for reading my journal and the info about irrigation. I also have never observed the blue-green leaf color, but that picture you shared closely resembled what I was seeing in my lawn. It seems like my lawn does not respond well to artificial irrigation, which could either be due to my cheap sprinkler or because of thatch. I have been bagging my clippings ever since I got a rotary mower about 2 months ago, so that should help over time.

Good looking backyard you've got there. Do you find that the brick edging you have prevents spread of grass into the plant mulch? I've got some cheap plastic edging and it hasn't stopped St. Aug runners at all!


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

@mjh648

I really need to check the marketplace next time - I pulled the investment trigger on Celsius a week ago and also now have a lifetime supply!

I will say I'm very glad I stumbled across this forum. I bought the MSM at Solutions pest & lawn and the staff rep didn't say anything about not spraying near trees. I've got a beautiful live oak in my backyard and luckily did not spray within its dripline. He also claimed Celsius was too expensive and the MSM was a "deal." Yeah it was a lot cheaper up front for MSM, but per application it was 8X more expensive. In terms of efficacy, MSM definitely worked but it also roasted my St. Aug in the process. I don't recommend it and will probably steer clear of products that contain MSM (Blindside) in the future.


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Live Oak said:


> @tragiclawn
> 
> Thanks for reading my journal and the info about irrigation. I also have never observed the blue-green leaf color, but that picture you shared closely resembled what I was seeing in my lawn. It seems like my lawn does not respond well to artificial irrigation, which could either be due to my cheap sprinkler or because of thatch. I have been bagging my clippings ever since I got a rotary mower about 2 months ago, so that should help over time.
> 
> Good looking backyard you've got there. Do you find that the brick edging you have prevents spread of grass into the plant mulch? I've got some cheap plastic edging and it hasn't stopped St. Aug runners at all!


It helps but the main reason is to look nice and for the mulch since mulch needs to be really thick to prevent weeds from popping up. Noone wants to be in the yard every week pulling weeds...


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Well, a bit of bad news. The irregularly shaped brown patches in my front yard have not responded to Azoxy, Propiconazole, or regular irrigation. Looking around on the edges of these weak areas I noticed some mosaic-looking yellow spots on some of the grass blades, which I think are pretty indicative of St. Augustine Decline (SAD) virus.





What a bummer. I'm not going to do any drastic until I see how the lawn responds during next year's growing season, but I'm guessing the situation won't improve and I will eventually have to re-sod or plug with a different cultivar. What's surprising is I have Floratam, which is supposedly SAD-resistant, but clearly that's not the case. Maybe Raleigh would fare better, though the safer option would probably be some form of Zoysia.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

my backyard st aug looks like that too and I have raleigh. Seemed to pop up after i applied prodiamine + simazine


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Hey @mjh648 and @Live Oak ,

I have the same issue and when i first found out it was most likely SAD i wasn't too happy. I did just plant some new sod and it's SUPER green and looking great. I think i'm going to wait till next year and see how it behaves and if it doesn't get the SAD splotchy look i'll slowly start sodding out my whole back yard every so often. It seems like this is really common in texas....

There was mention if you plant healthy grass it can eventually crowd out the SAD grass ( i'm sure that will take a while ).

I also read somewhere that said if you have SAD it's it will be in the top soil and you have to replace the top soil as well. No idea if this is true though....


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@tragiclawn keep us updated!


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

tragiclawn said:
 

> Hey @mjh648 and @Live Oak ,
> 
> I have the same issue and when i first found out it was most likely SAD i wasn't too happy. I did just plant some new sod and it's SUPER green and looking great. I think i'm going to wait till next year and see how it behaves and if it doesn't get the SAD splotchy look i'll slowly start sodding out my whole back yard every so often. It seems like this is really common in texas....
> 
> ...


Good to hear the new sod doing well - what cultivar did you go with? I was planning on getting some CitraBlue St. Augustine plugs next spring and putting those in my weak spots. Supposedly it is SAD-resistant, but I've heard the same thing claimed about other cultivars and sometimes that doesn't end up being true.


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## tragiclawn (Oct 4, 2020)

Hey @Live Oak ,

I simply got "Raleigh St. Augustine" from http://houstongardencenters.com/. So far it is still super green and i planted it 1 month ago. No complaints right now.


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

Long post incoming as I have not updated in 6 months or so. Quick recap starting from beginning of year.

January: dormant lawn, threw down Prodiamine at the end of month.

February: had a historic freeze which appeared to damage much of the yard. Ended up losing a bunch of tropical bushes but the St Augustine largely recovered.



March: lawn is recovering, applied first app of Milorganite and PGR as weather began to warm.



April: continued recovery, yard is looking half decent by end of month. Applied GrubEx preventative, PGR, and Image to knock out some dollarweed.



May: really starting to take off. Second Milo app, PGR, and Sedgehammer on kyllinga.





Some random observations I've had over the past year that may or may not be helpful for those with SA lawns:

- PGR works on SA and it's awesome. I'm not going to belabor all the benefits since everyone is likely aware already, but really happy with the results thus far.

- Sedgehammer, when applied correctly, works really well on yellow nutsedge (duh) but also surprisingly well on green kyllinga. This is great because halosulfuron is known to be gentle on St Aug, so you can spray angry and confidently. Note that it takes several weeks for a complete kill, but visible stunting is observed in about a week.

- Dismiss (sulfentrazone) also works very well (and very quickly) on sedge and kyllinga, but I've always experienced SA injury, even at low rates and mild temperatures. YMMV.

- 2-4D works great on dollarweed when many herbicides fall short (including Celsius). I use 2-4D in the winter/spring and Celsius in the summer.

- Peat moss was very effective in reducing iron chlorosis. It did take a couple apps and several months to eliminate it though.


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## UltimateLawn (Sep 25, 2020)

@Live Oak , your lawn looks great!

Which PGR are you using and at what application rate?

Also, how are you spreading your peat moss?


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## Live Oak (Sep 18, 2020)

UltimateLawn said:


> @Live Oak , your lawn looks great!
> 
> Which PGR are you using and at what application rate?
> 
> Also, how are you spreading your peat moss?


Thanks. I've been using TNEX at 0.16oz/k tank mixed with NIS once a month during the growing season.

I used a soft plastic rake to spread the peat moss. It's pretty time intensive but worth it if you're trying to control chlorosis and/or TARR.


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