# The death march begins



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

:::sigh:::::

I feel like last summer is beginning to repeat itself. If you followed my drama at all, it took several iterations, lots of money and labor to get my lawn to its glorious state it was in just a month ago. Now, slowly but surely, it feels like it's dying off again. Last season it was Pythium and army worms. Now, I'm not sure, but I suspect it's from under watering. I posted a few weeks back about some areas that looked unhealthy and collectively, it seemed like it was due to lack of watering. I did an audit and did find several underwatered areas. I corrected this by adjusting the pattern, time watered and changed nozzles from 3.0 to 4.0.

Additionally, early in the season I did a treatment with disease-ex. I realized later the amount I put down was totally wrong (not enough) and I ended up with some red thread. I then sprayed with some propiconazole. A month later I re-dropped a preventative rates worth of disease-ex. The red patch subsided.

So, I've treated for fungus, I've adjusted irrigation and I've had a local guy doing my fertilizing, which includes bio stimulants and broad leaf weed control. He's put three applications down since early May.

So now; I need to figure out why this lawn continues to look worse. Was it because I got the irrigation dialed in too late? Could it be a fungus like brown spot? In just don't get it. I did have some higher traffic 
last week when the landscapers were here. Only two guys, they planted trees and flower beds. They did use a dingo but put down boards when they drove on it. The dingo was on the boards a minimal amount of time as were the plywood boards.

Some spots look completely dead, some seem to be "transitioning" to the other side. Some spots have developed in the last few days and are not part of the chronically dry areas, the worst spots are what I found to be the very underwatered areas.

I'll also add, last two weeks or so have been hot, a bit humid and no rain. Yard was aerated 2 weeks ago.

HELP!


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Few things that stick out to me:

Three applications since May sounds like major overkill for a lawn service. I have not seen any reason for a blanket spray of herbicide from your pictures in recent memory. What are the details?

I don't see any fungus. As a note, granular fungicide isn't going to cut it with a lawn your size, especially for preventative apps. Also, you do not need fungicide for red thread. You need to give it a shot of quick release nitrogen when you get red thread.

A lot of the damage looks like it was caused by humans. For example: The first picture has some straight lines indicating it was caused by an application of something. The last pictures is most likely from urine, hot mower exhaust, or herbicide.

Aerating the yard 2 weeks ago was a mistake, or at the least, not necessary in any situation this time of year.

You posted some pictures recently that did look like drought stress. It's going to be tough to stay ahead of that with a new lawn. It will bounce back in the fall after a couple nitrogen apps. After a couple years, the drought tolerance will increase dramatically.

If I had to diagnose from those pictures, I would say overapplication of things like herbicide combined with an underapplication of things like NPK. If there was any fungus there, it would most likely be leaf spot.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Thanks for taking a look. I HOPE it's just been a lack of irrigation, that can be fixed easily. Chasing these diseases and insects is where it gets super frustrating.

I am concerned that some spots browned so quickly even after there was adequate water going down and had no previous signs of browning. It started looking really rough since Thursday.

My fertilizer guy seems solid. He's a former golf course super, very knowledgeable and helpful.

We decided that since it's a new lawn and has been on the struggle bus we would treat as it showed signs of nutrient deficiency. So, he came out and put down NPK and a broad leaf herbicide, it started yellowing after 3-4 weeks, did another app with slow release nitrogen granular, and came out again a couple weeks ago and did the same as well as to treat for some broad leaf weeds that were spreading. Here are the tags he emailed. He said July through august he will try to avoid putting fert down.

I did get some tournament ready with Humic that I'll try in these chronic dry spots as well.


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## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I followed your journey last year. I have made major mistakes in the last few seasons by harming with herbicides. Under watering is an easy fix. This year my lawn is the best it ever was. I learn more each season. I am sure you will also. There is science to turf management but it is not rocket science.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

rijkmus said:


> … I learn more each season. …


Amen to ^THAT!^



PFTanx said:


> …*Chasing* these diseases and insects is where it gets super frustrating. …


I feel ya.

After several seasons of "RE-acting" to (cha$ing) whatever I observed when I happened outside, *I think the biggest paradigm shift for me was adopting a philosophy that what I need to be focused on "today" is what the turf grass / landscape actually requires three to six months from now … or even more … and most often this falls into the category of PRE-vention*

I tell my wife we call it, "PRO-active $pending!" :lol:  :?

Reading some of the lawn journals maintained here confirmed that (i.e., I noticed others doing a particular activity today for results they expected months and months down the line …) along with the treasure troves of info in the "Cool Season Lawn Guide" ( https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595 )

I spent some time yesterday looking ahead a week or two to determine what days I am going to need to run my irrigation; then several weeks to when I need to re-attack a tiny Bermuda infestation it appears I'm ahead of (haha! :roll: ); and even months ahead as I read NOAA forecasts for what storms are currently forming and are forecast to form off the west coast of Africa and potentially due here ahead of normal "tropical storm season" schedule for our region July and August as that will impact my reseeding and chances of a Pythium outbreak that has reared its ugly head in a rested effort in 2019 …

OP, I hope you get your turf back where you want it sooner than later :thumbup: ; I only post the forgoing as I clearly remember realizing, "_I'm just gonna have to let things go - as they are today - in order to start focusing on the future_" (for me at that time it was a total POA Annua infestation and I had to choose going with a series of waves of max. app amounts of pre-em over reseeding that one - ENTIRE - season …)

Heck, I still have to come to that same type of acceptance from time to time, now! :lol:


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

440mag said:


> rijkmus said:
> 
> 
> > … I learn more each season. …
> ...


I'm completely in the reactionary phase of this journey. I THOUGHT I was thinking ahead by putting down disease ex but still got red thread. Then I ended up chasing more of it, but eventually got it under control. Same thing happened last summer with my lawn killers.

I guess the main point of this is to 
1-establish that it is a lack of watering or ID fungus
2-Determine if the brown spots are a lost cause or if they'll rebound in the fall

I also tend to fall into the camp of being an "overdoer". I think there will come a time when I just let the lawn do what the lawn does, establish a solid routine of fert and fungus control and a good watering plan.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Where is the soil test that your fertilizer guy is using to apply the correct amounts of NPK? In this case, it does not really matter since he is applying basically zero P and K. Why is he using AS as his N source? A soil test would indicate why based on your PH. How much N did he apply per app? Two apps of a high N fertilizer 3 weeks apart!? There is no date on treatment #1, but hopefully that was in March or early April. It looks like he was just throwing nitrogen at it to green up, then a little iron at the end as a last ditch effort, ignoring what is actually going on and what is actually needed.

You sound like you applied fungicide on your own, so why have someone else do your fertilizing? I believe you said you had the time in a previous post due to your work from home schedule. In this day and age, chances are you will not be happy with the results from someone else doing the work.

I think most of your issues are due to applicator error, with a case of leafspot that you've probably had awhile. It has not been that hot and Detroit got a lot of rain in mid-late may and early June.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Here is the april soil test. I have 2 more tests for this season. I plan to do a soil sample in July and one in sept. But now that you've raised the point of no P or K in his applications, I may take a sample today and send it in tomorrow to see where we stand.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

I added some more to my previous post.

You are low on P and K, yet he didn't apply any. Fire him and move on.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> I added some more to my previous post.
> 
> You are low on P and K, yet he didn't apply any. Fire him and move on.


This makes sense. First app was in mid April.

I'm going run another soil test to see where we stand but I have a hunch.

How do I start getting this thing what it needs, nitrogen aside? Sounds like I need to get it some P & K!


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Wow....so in a 5 week period, he fertilized 3 times with a high nitrogen fert! Hopefully he was applying .25lbs of nitrogen at a time. I'm guessing he wasn't, but you should check on that to be certain. I don't think it caused much of the issues you are seeing now, but if he did go heavy on the N, you'll be fighting fungus with max rates next month for awhile.

As for the P and K, that can definitely be a reason for your lawns lack of resistance to stressors. You'll have to do search on the forum, lots of info out there on how to address low P and K. You'll need 1 pound of P via 0-45-0 per month and 1 pound of K via 0-0-50 per month. Time to do some new researching on here!

You don't need another soil test until early next year.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Michigan State does soil testing:
https://homesoiltest.msu.edu/get-started
They will give you recommendations for a whole season. Wait for the amount you need and do any applications at an appropriate time for your area.

Or use a private lab. Avoid SoilSavvy and MySoil. You don't need to soil test more than once a year when you're using a normal lab.

By the way, aerating ruined your preemergent barrier of Prodiamine that was put down in the spring. It no doubt brought up weed seeds, so be prepared to see extra weeds this summer.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Michigan State does soil testing:
> https://homesoiltest.msu.edu/get-started
> They will give you recommendations for a whole season. Wait for the amount you need and do any applications at an appropriate time for your area.
> 
> ...


That is a good resource. Didn't know MSU did that.

Is it safe to start dosing p&k this time of year?

Looks like I may be able to start getting some down with this overpriced Ryan knorr product?

https://ryanknorrlawncare.com/product/simplelawnall/


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Wait for the lab recommendations. They generally tell you how much of P and K to use and when to apply. Fall is a much better time than summer. Probably mid to late August could be considered early fall in Michigan.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

As I research amending my soil to correct the P & K deficiency, I've found this to address the K issues. Instructions seem easy enough and doesn't sound like it's season or temperature dependent.

https://thelawncarenut.com/products/0-0-48-sulphate-of-potash?variant=34436700438666&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2021-04-18&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=CjwKCAjwh-CVBhB8EiwAjFEPGU4gb3N6As-JCLefA5L8TsJcnWIV0GIpS-1Bp7LN-Vg2JmJj_59f5xoCKo4QAvD_BwE


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

That will work. Typical low P and K correction recommendations will be in the 2-4lb per year range, depending on what you need. Aim to get most of it down in the spring and then the last pound in the early fall.

Around here site one carries 0-0-50 SOP in three different prill sizes. Check with them. The local farm feed and seed type stores are where we can find 0-45-0 TSP around here.

You would be better off spraying P and K for a temporary solution (or just do nothing for now because we could be way off target from what you should actually be focused on right now) and then start with the granular soil correction lightly in the fall and then heavy spring 2023.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Correct me because I'm probably wrong; spraying this stuff would temporarily take care of the lawn, but putting down these granular solutions work better for amending the soil? For a temporary, this season solution, I chatted with simple lawn solutions and they recommended their 3-18-18 hose end spray.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

If you're considering spraying, read this:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=17196

IMO, your lawn has been stressed enough already. Hot summer weather is here. Potassium can burn if applied too heavily. Just wait.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Virginiagal said:


> …
> IMO, your lawn has been stressed enough already. Hot summer weather is here. Potassium can burn if applied too heavily. Just wait.


 :thumbup:

I would only add: "_And use this time to:

A) *read and absorb as much as humanly possible of* "*The Cool Season Lawn Guide**," "THE MAINTENANCE CALENDAR," "Popular Cool Season Topics*" ; and,

B) use all that info and knowledge to *formulate your own Annual Calendar / Plan of Action for Preparation & Prevention*._" (as opposed to reaction)

"This is the way:" https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

440mag said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > …
> ...


This is the way


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

You've gotten some really good advice here. My favorite was the posted that told you to fire your lawn guy for not applying any P or K! Typically lawns use 3-1-1 pounds of N-P-K per growing season so that should be the minimum you should apply each year. I'm not sure I would do multiple soil tests throughout a growing season, either. Each nutrient moves through the soil differently so you might not capture an accurate representation of recently applied products. Take a soil test in the spring each year and they should give you a fertilizer plan for the growing season based off of your needs. I use Waypoint but there are several reputable companies.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

So I asked the fert guy about P & K, and he said the following;

"every treatment has a percentage of potassium in it. The first treatment also had phosphorus in it through biosolids"

So maybe it's getting SOME, just not directly through the fert mix he used.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@PFTanx here is the 0-0-50 I bought at a Site One in Commerce Township. The agronomist there is easy to talk to and breaks things down. My understanding is that straight phosphorus fertilizer is banned in Michigan, so you'd have to get something with all NPK in it.

Whatever company you used, I'm surprised that the invoice doesn't show the total weight of the fertilizer applied. I used to have a company do it, with good results but I wanted to do it myself. Saved money so far and I know exactly what was applied. If my guy said every treatment had a percentage of A and B, but wouldn't or couldn't tell me what it was, I couldn't take their word for it.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> So I asked the fert guy about P & K, and he said the following;
> 
> "every treatment has a percentage of potassium in it. The first treatment also had phosphorus in it through biosolids"
> 
> So maybe it's getting SOME, just not directly through the fert mix he used.


20-0-3 and 24-0-3 isn't going to have nearly enough K in it to solve your deficiency issue. If he's putting down .5 LB N each time, you're getting less than .1 LB K per application. Also, if it is not listed on the N-P-K label on the fertilizer, it is going to be a negligible amount.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@PFTanx

You can check for under watering by pulling some soil cores out every so often, before watering, and seeing if there's any moisture left in the soil. If it's like dust, or for clay if it's super hard, you have an under watering issue.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Green said:


> @PFTanx
> 
> You can check for under watering by pulling some soil cores out every so often, before watering, and seeing if there's any moisture left in the soil. If it's like dust, or for clay if it's super hard, you have an under watering issue.


I started doing this a couple weeks back. The crispy areas require a hammer to get the probe beyond 1/4". That tells me everything I need to know. My roots are only about 1/4" in those areas and concrete clay underneath. My focus going forward will be soil amendment and not just a perfectly weed free and green lawn. Gotta give it a nice home first.


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## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Yes you are going to have to do something expand the root zone. I top dress my dog pee burns. It really helps. Sounds like a good fall project.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Yes lots to do. I've started with a wetting agent. Next week I'll start dosing it with simple lawn solutions kelp/Humic blend. Probably won't do much more. September I'll probably start leveling a few areas, aerate, top dress with compost and do the fall nitrogen blitz. I need to figure out when to start getting it some healthy doses of P&K as well.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

It's possible there are multiple things going on but these two close up's look like drought stress to me. I see die-back from the tip on both the tall fescue and blue grass. I also see the blades curling in on themselves, aka needling.

I see a few lesions but that is totally normal and does not suggest disease is the main problem. Also, it would be unusual for the same disease to affect the TF and KBG at the same time and same rate. I don't know any disease that does that.

I read your post that you did the irrigation check. You might try it one more time. If you have a soil probe it would be interesting to see if those areas are completely dry.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Green said:


> @PFTanx
> 
> You can check for under watering by pulling some soil cores out every so often, before watering, and seeing if there's any moisture left in the soil. If it's like dust, or for clay if it's super hard, you have an under watering issue.


Good call. I think it's water.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Yeah it's definitely water. Still working the problem, but almost there!


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

It could be as simple as poa trivs and annua either dying or going dorment.


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