# Tetraploid Turf Type Perennial Ryegrass - Double Time



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I came across something interesting while on Hogan's site: Double Time ryegrass, which is tetraploid. It claims to have deeper roots. Reading about tetraploids online, it also seems they're less dense, so it might be interesting in mixes.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

I just overseeded with it this spring in my back yard. I bought it from Vista seeds. I actually wanted their version called Double Up but was sent Double Time which I think could possibly be the same thing since Proseed and Vista seeds seem to be related.

It's a little too early to tell how the grass will be long term, but as of now I'm really liking it. It has good color, cuts well, handles and recovers from stress well and so far has been able to survive in places where I had difficulty growing grass. 
I am hoping with it's deeper roots it will require less water as it already appears to be the case.

I have used many elite varieties of perennial ryegrass in my yard over the years but Double Time could be my favorite
The acid test will be over the winter as the last few years I've had a lot of die out in certain areas (thus the reason for the overseed). If it survives I'll overseed the front yard with it next year.

This one from Bailey seeds looks interesting as well: http://baileyseed.com/products/actress-perennial-ryegrass/


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Cool. And welcome (first post...I guess this topic helped bring you to write). Do you plan to have a lawn journal thread?


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

Yes first post. Have been a visitor to lawn forums for a few years, but strictly as a reader not a poster. Leaned a lot from this forum and others. So thanks to everyone for their knowledge they share on these forums.

It definitely was the topic of this post that brought me out to write. Here in the Pacific northwest we have issues growing KBG, so PRG is very common and the dominant grass for sod growing. Most lawns around where I live are mostly native grasses (bentgrass, rat tail fescue) and/or annual bluegrass. Most people just couldn't be bothered to overseed the PRG every few years and so their lawn eventually gets overrun by native grasses.

We have had very dry summers the last few years and I was looking for a grass that required less watering than regular PRG. According to NTEP, tall fescue doesn't grow all that well here either so that is what brought me to the tetraploid PRG.
I spent quite a bit of time looking into the tetraploid varieties, but there aren't many available here as they seem to be more popular in Europe.

I decided to try Double Up GLS so I emailed Vista seeds and asked where I could purchase locally. They didn't have anyone close by and said they could sell to me directly and ship it to me, so that is what I did. When I received the bag it was Double Time GLS which is what makes me think Double Up and Double Time are the same thing.

Like I mentioned in my last post I have tried many varieties of PRG over the years (Sideways, Penguin II, Natural Knit, ASP1001, ASP0112, ASP0113, Zoom, Secretariat GLS, Harrier, Edge II, Private, Tee Lee, Frontier, Singular, Mighty, PNW, Aspire, RPR, Thrive, Hancock and a few more I can't remember lol).

I am very happy with the Double Time GLS. For the price I paid for it and the results I have received so far it will become my go to PRG for seeding/overseeding. No more experimenting. lol . However, it does grow faster than other PRG's. Also when I seed/overseed I usually add some elite varieties of KBG in the hopes that one of the newer varieties will actually flourish here in the PNW. So far still looking for that magic bullet.

Thanks for the welcome Green and I'll look into the lawn journal.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

DTTG13 said:


> Yes first post...
> 
> Like I mentioned in my last post I have tried many varieties of PRG over the years (Sideways, Penguin II, Natural Knit, ASP1001, ASP0112, ASP0113, Zoom, Secretariat GLS, Harrier, Edge II, Private, Tee Lee, Frontier, Singular, Mighty, PNW, Aspire, RPR, Thrive, Hancock and a few more I can't remember lol).
> 
> ...


Much of my lawn mainly has a mix of: 
ASP1001GL, ASP6001, ASP6003, several other ASP cultivars that escape me at the moment, Zoom, several other Champion cultivars (possibly Zoom and SR4600), and/or Fiesta 4...mixed with America, Rugby II, Bewitched and other unknown KBG cultivars, and various TTTF (Bullseye, Firecracker S/LS, Flame/NoNet, Titanium II LS), and/or FF (unknown, Garnet, and Chantilly).

The ASPs are definitely stoloniferous/spreading to some extent (based on my own examination), and the Fiesta 4 (and possibly Zoom and SRxxxx) is advertised as such.

In the low-input area, the same ASP cultivars and some of the same KBG and FF cultivars, as well as Wicked TTPR, and some of the TTTFs I've been adding more recently because they do much better in our climate than TTPR--including Barenbrug cultivars, etc. I may also add a new KBG cultivar this year...Mercury....in the dead spots. And Myholidaylawn possibly.

We have the opposite situation here...KBG and TTTF are best, while TTPR eventually tends to die out. We do get overrun by Bentgrass, too, in some cases over time...or Poa annua and Poa trivialis.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

The ASP cultivars are *very* underrated. Around 3 years ago when Southern States had online ordering I bought a few bags of Chipmate PRG blend. I believe it had ASP1001, ASP0112, ASP6004, and one of the bags had ASP0113. I did a reno to my front yard as well as my father in laws front yard. Both turned out great. The grass was very thick (to the point of bogging down the lawnmower when dry) and the color was very very dark. I am kicking myself for ever getting rid of it to try growing KBG which ultimately and unsurprisingly turned out not so well. I agree with you that they definitely have some spreading ability.

Fast forward to last year, I killed off the KBG and planned to go back to the Chipmate PRG blend. I ordered a bag of Chipmate PRG blend from Standish Mills (as Southern States no long sold online) and was a bit surprised and disappointed to see that the cultivars were Frontier, Singular, and ASP6001. I also added Tee Lee, PNW, and Private which was a mix I bought from Outside Pride. All these cultivars on paper are supposed to be very dark but in reality they don't compare to the color or vigor of the original Chipmate blend.

Here are a few photos of the front yard from earlier this year. It not looking so good now with the hot, dry weather we've had, (0.340" of rain since the beginning of July) even with watering.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Yard looks nice.

A few years ago, I called Allied Seed themselves, and they were nice to talk with, despite me not being a pro or someone who deals in large amounts. I told them I might be looking for some of their PR, because I couldn't find it anymore at Agway. They seemed like they would have helped me to buy some if I had gone through with it. I didn't, and went with Champion GQ blend by SRO and Fiesta 4 in the end. The reason was that I swear my poa trivialis problem came from that mix of the ASPs and unknown KBG that Agway had blended for them. Point is, Allied Seed might help you find the seed to buy if you contact them.

The ASPs were rated really well...some of them are on NTEP.

Do you find PR lawns survive drought, or do you end up having to overseed? I've only ever had mixes. But it was mostly PR initially for almost a year a while back, with the ASPs, until I overseeded with other stuff.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Also I just looked at Allied's site. Assuming it's up to date, they list ASP 6001 through 6006, 0112, and 1001GL...same as a few years ago.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

I've run into it a few times where a company will use another companies seed in their blend. I ordered Champion GQ (an SRO product) from Seed Ranch and it contained Penguin II, Sideways (both SRO products) with Secretariat II (a Lebanon turf product.).

Frontier and Singular are Cascade international products mostly used in Jonathan Green products so I was a bit surprised to see it in the Chipmate blend which is an Allied seed product like you mentioned. I should have phoned or emailed the company I bought it from first to check which varieties were included in the blend. I just assumed I would get a blend of 3 or 4 varieties of Allied seed PRG's. Lesson learned.

My front yard has really been struggling with the relatively high heat and lack of rain even though I've been watering diligently. The drought tolerance for the most part has been poor. That was my main reason for trying Double Time tetraploid PRG in the back yard. From the bit of research I did online it looks like Double Time is quite a bit better than regular PRG but not quite as good as Tall Fescue in drought tolerance. I'm happy with it so far, but can't say I'm fully sold till more time has elapsed. My neighbor across the street doesn't water at all and he has to overseed every year about a two foot strip that's next to the road.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Interesting experiences. I realized recently I have some irrigation issues in the front, and combined with temps in the 90s, it's struggling. Last year I overseeded it with updated Northern mix cultivars...Fiesta 4 PR, Rugby II KBG, and Sumner, NoNet, Titanium II LS, and Bullseye TTTF. I really hope it all recovers this Fall! There's a lot of brown at the moment...

Along the lines of Tetraploid turf type perennial ryegrass...I'm waiting for the turf type Rye-Fescues...hybrids of PR and TF. Even though TF doesn't work too well in the PNW as you said, I believe the Festuloliums will. Hopefully the scientists are working on them...they've done it and have rye-fescue seed on the market for forage grass, but not turf type yet. That said, I did hear that a lot of modern TTTF has a small amount of ryegrass DNA in it, as they apparently crossed the two at some point during TTTF development.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

DTTG13 said:


> I just overseeded with it this spring in my back yard. I bought it from Vista seeds. I actually wanted their version called Double Up but was sent Double Time which I think could possibly be the same thing since Proseed and Vista seeds seem to be related.
> 
> It's a little too early to tell how the grass will be long term, but as of now I'm really liking it. It has good color, cuts well, handles and recovers from stress well and so far has been able to survive in places where I had difficulty growing grass.
> I am hoping with it's deeper roots it will require less water as it already appears to be the case.
> ...


I stumbled upon the reading on the double time PRG. How the cultivator holding up? The seed seems very promising and I may be interested in adding it to my overseeding next fall.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+ , hopefully @DTTG13 will see this and update us soon.

It's interesting that this thread just came back up. I was actually just thinking about Tetraploids again, and was looking at the sheet online for SRO's "Tetradark", as well its NTEP ratings. I also did some other research, and found out a few things...

At this point, Tetraploid PR still has a reputation for not being as heat tolerant as regular (diploid) PR according to some things I read. Let's see how things go for @DTTG13 in this regard. If that's the case, I'm not sure it would make it through a CT Summer (with a lot of high 80s and low/mid 90s as well as an occasional day in the upper 90s or low 100s once in a great while). I have enough trouble with the regular PR dying out in August, even with irrigation.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm in the same boat as you in terms of the NE summer temps. We got crushed this year with hotter than normal temps. We are paying the price now as well, with temps 15-20 degrees colder than normal. It's been a tough year with the extreme temps and rains


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah, our climate is rough on PR at both ends of the temp range. It does seem to do better in mixes, though.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Green said:


> Yeah, our climate is rough on PR at both ends of the temp range. It does seem to do better in mixes, though.


Seems that double time may be pretty resistant to the cold. Their tech sheet claims that it continues to grow even if it drops below 43 degrees and stays green year round.

With it being used mostly in sport turf situations, I wonder how it handles heat.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> With it being used mostly in sport turf situations, I wonder how it handles heat.


And that's the big question. Previous research on Tetraploids in general has pointed to them tending to be worse in heat up this point, compared to Diploids. We'll have to see. I hope anyone using them reports back on this.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

As mentioned I overseeded with Double Time GLS this spring, so my observations aren't time tested, but I have come to some preliminary conclusions.

On the plus side, I would say Double Time GLS is more shade tolerant and traffic tolerant than the other perennial ryegrasses I've tried. It also appears to be more resilient, in that I've been able to maintain it in areas where other ryegrasses have died out prematurely. As far as color goes, it would probably land in the very dark category, but it's not the darkest I've tried. That would have to go to ASP0112. Disease resistance has so far been very good. It also germinates slightly faster than the diploids.

As far as heat tolerance goes, I found that it performed better than the diploid ryegrasses I've tried in the past. As Green was saying there is contradictory information in regards to the performance of Tetraploids in hot and drought conditions. On the one hand, Tetraploids are marketed for overseeding southern turf in the winter because they allow for a better transition in the spring. Which would suggest the Tetraploids die out quicker and more thoroughly in heat than regular diploids. However the marketing also touts the grasses drought tolerance and deep roots. So I guess the verdict is still out.

The downsides would be that it is not very dense and should be mixed with another perennial ryegrass or other cool season grass. Also the blade is slightly wider than the diploids.

For me the advantages outweigh the minuses. I bought another 50lb bag and plan to overseed the front yard with it this year. Disease pressure in the PNW is high, so we're limited to perennial ryegrasses, fine fescues and bentgrass. I don't really care for the look of bentgrass or fine fescue, so I'm pretty much stuck with rye. I might try some TTTF mixed with KBG in the back yard this year to see if any of the new cultivars can survive better here, but I don't have my hopes up.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

DTTG13 said:


> As mentioned I overseeded with Double Time GLS this spring, so my observations aren't time tested, but I have come to some preliminary conclusions.
> 
> On the plus side, I would say Double Time GLS is more shade tolerant and traffic tolerant than the other perennial ryegrasses I've tried. It also appears to be more resilient, in that I've been able to maintain it in areas where other ryegrasses have died out prematurely. As far as color goes, it would probably land in the very dark category, but it's not the darkest I've tried. That would have to go to ASP0112. Disease resistance has so far been very good. It also germinates slightly faster than the diploids.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the update! I live up in the northeast so we have a combination of both extremes. Cold in the winter and hot/humid in the summer. Disease is a big thing in turf because of the humidity. From your experiences, it definitely seems to be more on the positive side that negative.

Do you have any pictures of your tetraploid turf?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@DTTG13

As @Scagfreedom48z+ mentioned, the Northeast (and midwest too) is probably one of the roughest areas on ryegrass of the areas in the US where it's normally used as permanent turf. Both Summer and Winter do a job on it. We can easily go from -8F in the Winter to above 95F with dew points in the upper 70s or hitting even 80 in the Summer. Almost every ryegrass in the NTEP has terrible ratings for Winter kill. And I had a lot of my grass get fried this past Summer in full sun. TTTF/KBG mixes do well here, with FF in the shade, but ryegrass still has its uses, too.

I used Fiesta 4 and three SRO cultivars the previous two years. I was thinking of going with Fiesta 4 again as well as Pizzazz 2 GLR and Sideways this Spring, if I can get all of them...but I'm tempted to add Double Time as well.

I like the wider blade and less dense growth, which will mix better with TTTF and KBG. Some of today's ryegrass is too fine and dense.

Yeah, the ASPs are really dark colored...especially 0112 according to NTEP. Too dark for using in mixed in my opinion.

That reminds me, according to NTEP, there are newer ASP cultivars, like 0118, etc. But Allied's site doesn't list them. Where do we find info on them? A guy here used some for temporary Winter overseeing this past Fall.

As far as disease resistance, Brown Patch can be a big deal in July, August, and sometimes September here. Any ideas how Double Time holds up? Dollar spot, too. And red thread in the Spring. Also rust from late Summer through Fall. Gray leaf spot, too. Those are the main diseases I've seen.

Any observation on growth rate and seed heads? Might have to wait until this Spring for that.

Finally, how did you get it? I'm not familiar with Vista Seeds.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

The last 4-5 years here the weather has been somewhat uncharateristic of the PNW. Colder winters with more snow than usual, and hot, dry summers. We went close to 2 months with no rainfall this summer. This winter so far has been what I'm used to growing up in the PNW, mild, so far no snow, but lots of rain.

I mentioned the disease resistance in my last post because I had a pretty serious outbreak of rust on my front lawn in the late summer/early fall (Frontier, Tee Lee, Private, PNW, Singular, ASP6001 perennial ryegrasses), but the back yard where I overseeded with Double Time GLS I never noticed any. I use the same lawn mower for both and didn't clean it in between cuttings, I also never noticed any other diseases in the back yard.

The reason I needed to overseed this last spring was because I experienced a lot of winter kill with the diploid ryegrasses in the back yard. The tetraploids are supposed to be better in this regard, so it was one of the reasons I chose Double Time. I don't think I will get to test it's winter hardisness this year unless the weather takes a turn for the worse.

I'm not drawing too many conclusions yet as far as the disease resistance is concerned as I've personally found the first year with newly sown perennial rye the disease instances are few. It seems the second year is when the diseases start to show up.

My main reasons for trying Tetraploids was that is was supposed to have : better winter hardiness, better drought tolerence, lower maintenance, good color, more resilience in tough areas.

So far it seems to have lived up to my expectations. However, the differences between the diploids and tetraploids are definitely not night and day. Slight to moderately better in the conditions I mentioned above.

I ended up buying Double Time GLS from Vista seed. I tried emailing Pro seed marketing but they never got back to me. I noticed Vista seed had a tetraploid rye called Double Up GLS. I emailed them and they put me in contact with one of their reps to order a bag. When I received the seed it was in a Double Time GLS bag (see picture below). I think the two companies are related somehow.

I've included a couple pictures. Unfortunatly, they don't capture Double Time at it's best. The first one is from early August. We hadn't had any rain for about a month, although I was lightly watering. The second picture is from mid October a week or so after blanket spraying Tenacity to take care of some Poa issues, so the color is not best.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Thank you for sharing!! Great information.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@DTTG13,

If I'm interested in trying out a small quantity, do you think it would be worthwhile contacting Vista? 5 lbs or so is what I want to buy. No more than that. But I'm on the opposite coast.

Sounds like your weather was more in line with ours this past year (minus the humidity in the Summer). This Winter, your area is forecasted to be normal or even above normal...while the Northeast is supposed to be colder or significantly colder than normal, especially in late January and February. We already had a colder than normal November (like January, almost, complete with a major snowstorm), and now December is pretty normal (what I call warm compared to last month), but the grass is already partially brown because of how much cold we've had! I can't believe it.


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

I think they only sell 50lb bags, but you could always give it a try. When I bought mine I emailed them and they got back to me pretty quick. I think Hogan sells it as well and sounds like they do smaller quantities. I'd send you some of mine, but I already split the bag with my father in law.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

DTTG13 said:


> I think they only sell 50lb bags, but you could always give it a try. When I bought mine I emailed them and they got back to me pretty quick. I think Hogan sells it as well and sounds like they do smaller quantities. I'd send you some of mine, but I already split the bag with my father in law.


Thanks. I know Hogan has a different brand, not sure about this one...but worth asking I guess. This brand is rated really well. The Gray Leaf resistant one would be ideal.


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## cfinden (Aug 7, 2018)

I overseeded my failed TTTF reno with a Tetraploid TTPR called Replicator 4N at l0lbs/M this fall. I'm interested to see how it holds up over winter.

It's definitely not dense, it looks ok from the side, but from above you can see dirt.

@DTTG13 Did your Double Time eventually thicken up? More tillering?

http://www.premierpacificseeds.com/assets/replicator---prg.pdf


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## MDJoe (Sep 16, 2019)

Green said:


> DTTG13 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes first post...
> ...


I'm just curious...why doesn't KBG or TTTF do well up there in the PNW?


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