# Yet another reno



## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

I am getting ready to reno my 18k backyard and I am sure I will have numerous questions going forward.
I have a company that is going to do a power rake and remove the grass that I nuked a few days ago. I thought I had an agreement to hydro seed but that has fallen through so I am looking to do the seeding myself. Sodding is out of the budget.

My current plan is to use Royal Bengal bermuda from Hancock Seed. Not sure if I am being penny wise and dollar foolish in using this versus Arden 15. If there are long term benefits to the Arden that would offset the upfront extra cost ($800 vs $480 for 50#) I would love to hear them. I will say upfront that I am not looking for super low cut, golf green quality, just a nice smooth looking lawn HOC 1-1.5" with my Toro ZTR. I do not like centipede and my wife does not like the Zenith Zoysia that we sodded the front with last year so bermuda it is.

I currently own a few 'tools' that I plan on using after they use the rake, to maybe create a smoother surface for the seed. I have a tow behind tine aerator, a de-thatcher and a roller.

I plan to roll again after I put down the seed.

I would like to cover it all with peat moss but the calculations of covering it at .25" show me needing 100+ bags at $15 per bag. That is a show stopper - am I missing something here? Buying a Landzie at $250 is doable though I would obviously rather rent one. No local rentals I can find.

Comments appreciated, especially the peat moss calcs <g>

Before the nuke.






Had a tree removed here.




After - current.


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## dubyadubya87 (Mar 10, 2020)

I love seeing renovations, I'll be following. 
Not sure of your math on peat moss, but I will advise you to locate a supply, if there is one. It has been a challenging year in the industry with supply and demand.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Right now my local Lowes has it but who knows how long as they were out 2-3 weeks ago. Just not real interested in 100+ bags <g>.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

You could use something other than peat moss... Maybe see if your municipality or one nearby sells bulk compost. I live in a small city (100k or so), not the most advanced place to be sure, and they sell it for like $15 per yard.

Another thing you might find around you is cotton burr compost from a gin near you. A gin about 80 miles from me was selling that for just a few dollars per yard (it's really trash to them) but it was too much trouble for me to go and get. The stuff is great and retains moisture well in the small quantities I've used it in garden beds.

But 18k is a lot of space. You don't need peat moss or anything else if you can water enough and keep the ground moist. I assume you're setting up sprinklers?


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## theguybrarian (Apr 11, 2020)

Chocolate Lab said:


> You don't need peat moss or anything else if you can water enough and keep the ground moist.


I seeded Arden 15 on May 23rd and did not use any topdressing. I spread the seed, gave it a super super light rake, and watered on a schedule. We had a 1+ inches of rain 5 days after seeding. I was sure that everything had washed out, but it didn't (maybe it had started to root?).


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## tincan (Sep 4, 2020)

I agree that you don't need peat moss if you can keep the seeds moist. I didn't use any peat moss when I seeded my backyard.

But if you have sloping areas, peat moss or straw could be useful to protect against seed wash off in a heavy rain.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Need it or not I now have 21 bags <g> which may or may not be enough. I really want to give it every chance to germinate as I have never been successful just sowing and raking in the seeds. As I have mentioned before I think the backyard is a nuclear waste dump. In the 14 years I have been here I have probably had a 'good/ok' yard maybe 2-3 years. Different problems, always had a lawn service company 'maintain' it. Numerous soil samples, none of which indicate a 'serious' problem, certainly nothing that would prevent seed germination. 
The most test recent indicates I am low on P & K. My plan to to put down 10-10-10 after seeding though I have seen recommendations (Lawn Whisperer and others) for Scott's Starter fertilizer as it is 25-24-4 it might be a better choice?

This will be the 1st time ripping everything out and starting 'fresh'.
I do have in ground irrigation so keeping it moist will not be a problem.
Hope to get started with the prep this week, seed on order and expected the next week.

Now to find a peat moss spreader, trying to cajole/beg my lawn service company to rent/borrow one of theirs over a weekend when they would not be using it.


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## dubyadubya87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Wabos42 said:


> The most test recent indicates I am low on P & K. My plan to to put down 10-10-10 after seeding though I have seen recommendations (Lawn Whisperer and others) for Scott's Starter fertilizer as it is 25-24-4 it might be a better choice?


_Do_ use a true seed starter fertilizer, _don't_ necessarily use a Scott's product. Most of their product investment is in marketing, not ingredients.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

dubyadubya87 said:


> Wabos42 said:
> 
> 
> > The most test recent indicates I am low on P & K. My plan to to put down 10-10-10 after seeding though I have seen recommendations (Lawn Whisperer and others) for Scott's Starter fertilizer as it is 25-24-4 it might be a better choice?
> ...


Do you have a specific recommendation? As I said, I want to give the seed the best chance.


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## dubyadubya87 (Mar 10, 2020)

The Andersons Premium New Lawn Starter 20-27-5 Fertilizer - Covers up to 5,000 sq ft (18 lb) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WZPNHTM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_J1XYWFJSNX395DHNW22B?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Ive always had very good success with The Anderson's brand.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

dubyadubya87 said:


> The Andersons Premium New Lawn Starter 20-27-5 Fertilizer - Covers up to 5,000 sq ft (18 lb) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WZPNHTM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_J1XYWFJSNX395DHNW22B?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Ive always had very good success with The Anderson's brand.


Thanks. I am familiar with the name mostly through the Do it with Doc videos. I will check it out.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Now the waiting begins. Never mind the task at hand, I have gained some appreciation for the YouTubers that can do a project like this while documenting every step of the way. I had a hard time just stopping to take a couple of pictures as I finished a particular step.

I pretty much followed my original plan and the only real issue was the crap job done by the company that did the demo work. Even after making them come back and redo most of it I am still not real happy but the hassles involved in remediation are just not worth it. I will address it at my 1st leveling <g>.

I wound up making a spreader for the peat moss based on Every Day Dad's plans, sans his door mod. Even though I opted for the 1/2" mesh it still put it out at about twice the rate I would have preferred so I ran out before I finished. As I just beat the rain that will be here for 3-4 days I am just going to leave it as it. It will be a good 'test' as to the 'value'.

The Brinley dethatcher and aerator performed admirably as did the home made drag. It helped that the soil was pretty dry (sandy loam). I watered the night before I did the final steps, aerated, spread the Royal Bengal, starter fertilizer, rolled and then the peat moss.

Though we have had 2" of rain so far (day 3) it has been more of a shower than a deluge. My neighbors must think I am nuts running my sprinkles after all of that. We are currently 'between' systems with no rain for almost 24 hrs but more to come.

Before demo 






After demo






After dethatch & drag






After aeration






Ready for the wait






Tools of the task


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

This is pretty cool! Will certainly follow this project!


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

Man, thats gonna be an awesome backyard! Good luck with the seeds.


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

Man that's a big FLAT yard! Nice! You sure you're not going to reel that?


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

rjw0283 said:


> Man that's a big FLAT yard! Nice! You sure you're not going to reel that?


I tried the reel route in the front using a Mclane 10 blade 20" and found it to be too difficult to maneuver around the landscaping. While mostly flat, the back is very far from level thanks mostly to the crew that did the demo. There is an art to using the dingo/skid steer that this guy did not have. Right now I will be very happy just to look out and see grass everywhere .


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Day 8.
So far it looks as though the peat moss covered area is winning the race, lots of very visible seedlings. Not so much in the uncovered area. To hopefully compensate I have added 5 minutes of watering (now 20) per zone to the uncovered area.

Overall it is obvious that I am going to start the 'new' yard with lots of 'problems' from the previous mess as the kill off did not get everything. All of the fertilizer and water has promoted growth of that 'stuff' also. When will it be safe to address those issues? Crabgrass and Bahia were my normal problems with assorted other weeds.


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## dubyadubya87 (Mar 10, 2020)

Wabos42 said:


> When will it be safe to address those issues? Crabgrass and Bahia were my normal problems with assorted other weeds.


I sprayed Celsius on mine after I believe the second cut of the new grass. Not sure if that was from the label or a thread on here. No issues.


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## Gixxer2282 (Jul 22, 2020)

Let it grow in and worry about the weeds after a few mowings. I'm near you and just did an arden reno this year also and I'm just now battling the weeds. Try not increasing amount of time per zone but increase the amount of times the zone runs per day. If you need a REEL mowing service give me a shout.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

I am watering 4 times per day (6-10-2-6), 15 minutes per zone - 5 zones. The peat moss covered zones are in fact more moist by feel though the others are not 'dry' by any means. I can change the schedule to 5-6 times per day but my thoughts were/are to focus on the non peat moss covered zones. Can't wait to see the water bill <g>.
While I am not anti reel mowing my focus for this season is to get good coverage. As you can see from the 'before' pics it was not a pretty sight.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

Ohhh la la, this will be fun to watch. You could probably fit 100 of my yards in yours.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Day 12
The peat moss covered area is filling in nicely, the other not so much. I reached out to Hancock Seed and they said to expect full germination in 3-4 weeks and to keep doing what I am doing. Still pretty amazing to see the difference between the 2 areas.

This pic shows lots of green but is misleading as the most visible green is either the old Bermuda re-appearing or weeds. The new grass is smaller and greener. 


Mostly just the new grass.


Finally some growth in a non peat moss covered area. I did adjust the watering to 5 times per day.


This area is where I had an irrigation problem that I had to dig up and repair, after which I hand sowed. Pretty thick stuff <g>


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## mre_man_76 (Aug 4, 2018)

Looking good. Can't wait to see after the first mow


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

As week 3 ends and 4 begins it is starting to become fairly obvious that I can't get there from here. While my skill set is primarily being able to follow instructions I needed to have more than that here.

Mistake 1 was thinking I could overcome a really crap job by the outfit that demo'ed the yard. As the pics show the heavy rains from Elsa exaggerated all of low spots and created many runoffs.
Mistake 2 was going ahead with the seeding even with misgivings.
Mistake 3 was not buying enough peat moss to cover everything before a 3 day front moved through.

Most of the green seen here is the reemergence of the same old stuff I have been dealing with for years. There is quite a bit of germination in the areas where the peat moss is, almost none in the other half if the yard.

My inclination at this point is a start over, somehow finding a way to have it sodded. I have seen on the pages where others have had success seeding and I congratulate them. As with most projects good prep work is crucial to success.

As Elsa was passing by. Just 2.5 inches of rain.




After Elsa.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

It's Bermuda. Don't be too discouraged. You got some good germination and good growth in some areas.

If it were me, I would go ahead and address the runoff areas when things dry out and let it grow in. If you feel so inclined just go through and glypho stuff you don't want. We still have plenty of growing season left down here and plugging spots you glypho in a few months or even spring of next year will be a whole lot less work and $ then redoing the whole thing.

Edit because I wanted to add 2 things.
1. Don't forget it wasn't just the fact we got 2.5" of rain, it's how we got it. That would have tested even the most level dirt jobs.
2. If you do drag it again at some point, try to make/find a much wider drag. When you're working that much area you need something large and heavy. I have an 8' section of telephone pole on the back of a disk harrow, but without access to a tractor and seeing you have a 4 wheeler, maybe an 8' railroad tie if you can find one would be wide enough to get you really level.
You have to keep perspective of the size lawn you're working.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Amoo316 said:


> It's Bermuda. Don't be too discouraged. You got some good germination and good growth in some areas.


Thanks for the encouragement. 
It is really worse than it looks in the pics. I doubt that even a 8' span would work at this point without some significant topsoil to move around, I have been watering 4-5 times per day for 21 days along with the help of 2 storms systems on top of that. There isn't any loose soil left to move around.

Germination on the top half is encouraging but that is where most of gouging and wash boarding is and to level that would kill the new grass, right?

The bottom half is a total loss to this point, but at least there is much less need to 'level' as the original slope was mostly maintained. Some sort of accident there. I would probably only have to aerate a few passes, then re-seed, drag and put the peat moss down.

I keep going down these rabbit holes trying to save a buck and wind up spending two.

I am going to spend the next week honoring the seed companies recommendations while gathering quotes and prices on other options.

Thanks


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Wabos42 said:


> The bottom half is a total loss to this point, but at least there is much less need to 'level' as the original slope was mostly maintained. Some sort of accident there. I would probably only have to aerate a few passes, then re-seed, drag and put the peat moss down.


You could look at renting a walk behind roto tiller, address your drag situation with something for a bigger job. Let the top half grow in this season with expectations that next spring you're going to redo the bottom half.

Good luck whatever you decide. There is general contractor flat and there is yard fanatic flat. The "real" way to do it right would be to have it laser graded, but that's going to get silly expensive and you still can't guarantee we won't get a tropical overhead while new seed grows in. AT the end of the day, seeing what you already accomplished I have no doubt you have the ability to get what you want out of that back yard. How much pain are you willing to go through in the process may be another story.

Edit for clarity: I'm suggesting next spring to roto till and level because it would give your top half enough time to grow in and not get killed by dragging and leveling. (Sorry I suck at saying it all the first time).


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

I will certainly add this to my list of options. I have already joked to my wife that I could go with a 4" HOC and 'level' it that way.
As for the bottom half, I would just have a 6' path down the fence line for traffic to and from device storage.
Interesting comment on laser grading, when I complained about the crap job he did he was quick to respond it wasn't laser graded when he started. I responded that it wasn't corn rowed either <g>.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

First of all, shake it off. We learn by doing. It's hard to listen and take advice, but we fail and can do better in the future.

My .02:

This is a large yard, I would work in sections. I wouldn't seed again.
I would see if any sod farm near by will sale you sprigs. Sprigging is the way to go. Alternatively, you can buy a pallet of sod and tear it up and throw it out (of course watering like hell for 2 weeks)
But, before I did this I would address the grade and kill off everything at least 2 more times.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

probasestealer said:


> First of all, shake it off. We learn by doing. It's hard to listen and take advice, but we fail and can do better in the future.
> 
> My .02:
> 
> ...


All good suggestions. 
Another has come my way offline (another rabbit hole <g>). A friend of mine has the equipment (tractor & box blade) to straighten up grading problems and has offered to do so. Supersod will deliver 35 pallets of TifTuf Bermuda for < $7k.
Most of my friends are younger than me but all are smarter than me so here is where the plan starts to fail <g>. I cannot locate or identify any to lay it. Would take a pretty good crew.
I will get an estimate (to do the entire job) Monday from a company I have used in the past with good results. Others I have called profess an inability to find new hires so are not currently taking on new jobs beyond what they can currently handle.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

After much teeth gnashing and such I decided to nuke it all and start over once again. I just did not see a reasonable way to get where I want to be without looking out at a mess for many more months. I was very fortunate to find someone to get the sod and put it down. I went with TifTuf and am excited about the future.

After tilling it all up and preparing for sod.


After sod installation (35 pallets) - current.


While it would have been nice to have it as smooth after as it was before, I at least have something to work with. I will look at leveling come spring time - or later if it would be better to wait until fall. I am hoping for a good heavy rain soon and maybe get my roller on it, right now it doesn't have much affect.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Wabos42 said:


> I am hoping for a good heavy rain soon


Check the radar, you're about to get that wish.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

Looks great! Gonna be awesome


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Amoo316 said:


> Wabos42 said:
> 
> 
> > I am hoping for a good heavy rain soon
> ...


If the system currently in AL gets here intact you are right, but I am used to these things parting like the Red Sea and going around me, Elsa notwithstanding. Have to be careful what you wish for around these parts, all we usually get are droughts and floods. That is in my yard, on the golf course it rains much more often <g>.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

SeanBB said:


> Looks great! Gonna be awesome


While the sod in total is like a kaleidoscope this piece shows me what it can look like with the proper care, hence the excitement. The pic really doesn't do it justice as it is very green and dense. The sod guy said it was because that section might have gotten more water.


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## rbrownjr5 (Aug 1, 2021)

Anyone of ya'll ever try and do the sod and til method where you lay out sod and then til it into the soil. Was on another forum I saw and was curious as I'm about to start my own RENO.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

rbrownjr5 said:


> Anyone of ya'll ever try and do the sod and til method where you lay out sod and then til it into the soil. Was on another forum I saw and was curious as I'm about to start my own RENO.


I'm not smart enough to begin to understand that logic <g>. Till, sod and water in that order would seem to be the standard.


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## rbrownjr5 (Aug 1, 2021)

There's another sub forum where it was suggested for very large renovations. You could lay strips of sod down with space in between the strips and till those strips so the stolons would plant into the tilled soil. This logic was for someone with a very large yard that didn't want to spend the money to sod the entire space. Grow in would take about a season with non irrigated acreage. This is for 2-3 acres.


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## rbrownjr5 (Aug 1, 2021)

@Wabos42 
Sprigging basically I think it a poor mama way of this method.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

After 3" of 'requested' rain <g>. While not the deluge of Elsa there were numerous pools of standing water in the low spots. Yet an hour later it was all gone and this morning no real visible traces. This pic is before my last and final rolling. 


After rolling. In spite of all the rain, the turf is still very firm so no real affect that I can see so I am done with that. Leveling will have to be the answer there. Already seeing growth in spots.


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## Falcon64 (May 29, 2019)

Looks Great!

I went down the seed route twice in my backyard and both times I'm sure I ended up spending more than I would have just laying sod. The weed pressure drove me crazy. End up spending more on chems and more time pulling weeds than what you were going to save in the first place.

Bit the bullet this spring and rolled sod out after spending all of 2020 out of state and I'll never seed a yard again.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

Curious of the lbs / gallons of that roller. Maybe a heavier one would do more?


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Automate said:


> Curious of the lbs / gallons of that roller. Maybe a heavier one would do more?


It is an AgriFab 18x48" , 500# when filled with water. I am sure one of those road paving rollers would do a number on it <g>.


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## Wabos42 (May 22, 2020)

Falcon64 said:


> Looks Great!
> 
> I went down the seed route twice in my backyard and both times I'm sure I ended up spending more than I would have just laying sod. The weed pressure drove me crazy. End up spending more on chems and more time pulling weeds than what you were going to save in the first place.
> 
> Bit the bullet this spring and rolled sod out after spending all of 2020 out of state and I'll never seed a yard again.


All I can say is amen to that! Pretty sure that I didn't 'waste' enough monies going the seed route to pay for the sod but it would have made a nice dent in the total. I have seen a number of people on these pages have great success with their seed projects so I know it can be done - just not in my backyard <g>.


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