# I'm going for it...KBG spring seeding in mid atlantic



## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

I know, it shouldn't be done. I've only ever done renovations in the fall here in southeast PA. I have a full stand of very healthy TTTF (top rated varieties). My dog occasionally rips up the turf though. The deer are awful in the winter. They eat the grass and create hoof damage.

This spring I'm planning to throw KBG seed on top of my 100% TTTF grass. I'll use Tenancity in late march to allow me to seed. Will likely put down prodiamine in early May once the KBG has roots.

If it doesn't work it doesn't work, but I need my lawn to self repair. I'll throw down more in the fall.

My question is, on my 12K sq foot lawn, how much KBG should I seed to even attempt to give myself a 10% KBG lawn by end of summer? (yes, I know, there is a chance of 100% failure...thats fine).


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Are you planning on killing off areas or are there bare areas already? Because it is very challenging to overseed KBG into a TTTF lawn and have success. The seed will likely get shaded out and outcompeted for nutrients. If you do get germination, the water requirements through the summer are going to open the door for fungus on the TTTF. You seem to not be very optimistic about the outcome as well, so if it were me I'd wait until fall and do a full reno (or even thin out some areas and attempt to incorporate some KBG into the TTTF).


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

dport said:


> My question is, on my 12K sq foot lawn, how much KBG should I seed to even attempt to give myself a 10% KBG lawn by end of summer? (yes, I know, there is a chance of 100% failure...thats fine).


I would aim for 2lbs per K, which is a heavy overseeding. Typically overseeding is 1-2 lbs and new lawn is 2-3 lbs. To give yourself the best chance of success, I would: scalp and bag at a low setting, power rake/scalp and bag at a lower setting, and final scalp and bag at the lowest setting, to give you the best seed to soil contact. If you have PGR, you can apply it (ahead of time, I think) to slow the existing TTTF. I haven't used it so look for experiences from others on TLF.

Oh, and the 90/10 TTTF/kbg mixes you see for sale are by weight, so the 2 lbs I mention should be close to that proportion (with a little extra for good measure). In actuality, the the 90/10 mixes are closer to 50/50, when you look at the seed count. Kbg is a very small seed so there are way more seeds per pound than TTTF. TTTF has about 225,000-250,000 and kbg has about 1,000,000-1,250,000 per lb., respectively, depending on the cultivar. Information on seed count is on some of the stat sheets from some of the mfgrs., if you are curious.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Your trying to do two difficult thing. 1 is a spring overseed and 2 is overseeding KBG all together. I've had success spot seeding bluegrass in the spring but overseeding is another story. Would you consider using p rye instead? That would take one variable away. At least it germinates and establishes fast.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Thanks guys. Certainly recognize this could be a complete failure (and that is ok). I cut my TTTF at 2.25 inches in the spring so its fairly low...and yes, I would be overseeding into a full/thick stand of existing grass with the exception of about 1/8 of the yard which is ripped up by deer.

My issue is with the lack of self repair for the TTTF. I know by mid summer my dog, the heat, and general traffic is going to take a toll. I want KBG so it can heal throughout the season.

Rye has been a disaster for me in the past as I am on the edge of the transition zone and our hot summers are no match for PRG. I'm thinking if I take the route that Chris suggested, perhaps do an extreme overseed, then maybe I can get 10-20% of those seeds to germinate and survive the summer.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Can I ask a stupid question? Why the rush? Why not wait until August and do a reno?

I would be less concerned with this being a failure and more concerned about enough KBG germinating to actually make a difference.

I guess I just don't get doing something when there's a high probability of this not working out the way you want when waiting a few months will yield significantly better results.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Why not just throw down more TTTF seed in the spring and do KBG in the fall if you really want KBG. You'll have a better chance of fixing your problem spots with TTTF than KBG..


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## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

Hmm sounds like an expensive thing to try...seed, prep...and then water through the summer. If you are going to do it I would recommend putting down some growth regulator.


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## Mdjamesd (Sep 5, 2019)

I did the same.thing last spring. Your water bill is going to be crazy!

If I were to.do.it again, I'd wait till fall.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Harts said:


> Can I ask a stupid question? Why the rush? Why not wait until August and do a reno?
> 
> I would be less concerned with this being a failure and more concerned about enough KBG germinating to actually make a difference.
> 
> I guess I just don't get doing something when there's a high probability of this not working out the way you want when waiting a few months will yield significantly better results.


Fair points. I guess my thought is that we, in the lawn community, have quite a long payoff period. Patience is key. If I spend $100 to throw down KBG seed across the entire lawn in early April, then that is the most I can lose. Now, this would hinge on the hope of good weather as I really don't plan on watering heavily.

Fall is certainly much better for seeding here in Philly, but even then we can get dry weather, washouts, hot days, etc.

I suppose my idea of throwing down seed in the spring and fall this coming year is to just better my chances overall of some success.

That said, if everyone is saying there is 0% of any KBG seed germination in Spring (along with survival into the summer) then perhaps I need to reconsider.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Stuofsci02 said:


> Why not just throw down more TTTF seed in the spring and do KBG in the fall if you really want KBG. You'll have a better chance of fixing your problem spots with TTTF than KBG..


Completely agree. I have about 15 pounds left of TTTF from last season. I'll likely throw this down as well in areas that are not as thick.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I think you would get SOME germination. But like I said, not enough to make a difference. And that's true whether you overseed KBG in the Spring or Fall.

You're right, there is a long payoff period in lawn care. Because of that "hope" is not a plan - I heard that line in a commercial and I've been looking for a place to use it!

I'll do my best to help with whatever you choose to do. But despite the possibility of the Fall being dry and hot with the potential for washouts, if you seed in August, you will leave plenty of time to throw more seed down.

Lastly, any germination you do get in the Spring may not survive the heat of Summer. And doing an app of Prodiamine in May will likely prevent you from being able to put more seed down in the Fall. You need to wait 60 days post germination or 2 mows (whichever occurs later). This easily puts you into June before a pre-em app can be made.


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## Mdjamesd (Sep 5, 2019)

When I did mine, I mowed and bagged as low as I could go.
Slit seeded at 4 lbs/K
Watered lightly as needed. I wanted to try and starve the existing turf, and only keep the KBG seed moist.
10 days after seed, used starter fert.
I continued watering just enough to keep the new seed/seedlings moist.
Summer, I watered, watered, and watered, but eventually the new grass went dormant, I thought it had died quite honestly.
Around September the cooler temps came back, and with a little N, the KBG came out of dormancy, luckily.
I started spoon feeding N, and using waaaay too many supplements, but my lawn looked better than it has in the last 6 years.
Even now, my lawn is fairly dark green.

It can be done, but if I were to do it all again, I'd wait till fall.


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## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

Yeah KBG will germinate, just won't survive. What I did to prepare for my reno was do a soil test and pump as much nutrients and lime into as I could. Give the reno the best fertility I could do in 6 months


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

U can always try dormant seeding like right now. Throw'er down and hope for the best. At least this will eliminate the time between seed down and germination.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

If you have irrigation, you will be fine. You will probably want to invest in some fungicides. Some will also give you a PGR effect.

I would rent a power rake and rough up/thin out your existing TTTF to give the KBG seedlings a chance. Without doing this I would only overseed the bare areas.

Use a slit seeder to ensure good seed to soil contact.

Hold off on any fertilizer until the seedlings are 2+ weeks old then spoon feed N. Mowing at 2.25" is a good height until the KBG gets a little more established.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I think you've been given some great advice, whether you choose to seed in the Spring or wait.

If you do decide to seed in April, I'll add in that I would completely scalp your existing turf. This means you might hit dirt on some of your passes. I've done this and my over seed has always turned out great.

As mentioned above, I would not apply any N until the seedlings are a few weeks old. Throwing down N any earlier will only encourage your existing turf to grow.

Watering throughout the heat of the summer is going to be very important. As much as you need to baby new grass in the Fall, I would argue it's even more important to get through Summer.

I wish you the best of luck with whatever you choose to do.


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## SumBeach35 (Jul 11, 2019)

scalp, PGR and water( and dont stop the watering during summer). Also having the products available to be able to address weed issues will be good to have on hand as well. you wont be able to spray Pre-m until well into the prime crabgrass season.

I had a successful spring reno last season. Takes patience and persistence.

I would spray tenacity, quinclorac, and carfentrazone with MSO monthly to help combat crabgrass.


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## Deke (Jun 10, 2019)

dport said:


> I know, it shouldn't be done. I've only ever done renovations in the fall here in southeast PA. I have a full stand of very healthy TTTF (top rated varieties). My dog occasionally rips up the turf though. The deer are awful in the winter. They eat the grass and create hoof damage.
> 
> This spring I'm planning to throw KBG seed on top of my 100% TTTF grass. I'll use Tenancity in late march to allow me to seed. Will likely put down prodiamine in early May once the KBG has roots.
> 
> ...


Shoot the deer and turn them into delicious meat treats and then keep your tttf yard? Is that an option


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

Deke said:


> dport said:
> 
> 
> > I know, it shouldn't be done. I've only ever done renovations in the fall here in southeast PA. I have a full stand of very healthy TTTF (top rated varieties). My dog occasionally rips up the turf though. The deer are awful in the winter. They eat the grass and create hoof damage.
> ...


Yeah - gunshots outside of Philly can't be that uncommon! :lol:


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