# Topdressing or Topsoil



## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

Hi,

I've just nuked my lawn a few weeks ago with Roundup and I have detached. I went to my local supplier to order 2 yards of topsoil to put down, but they had me order 2 cu yards of top dressing instead before I plant my TTTF. I told them I though topdressing was for established lawns. So question is, do I cancel the order and get topsoil instead of top dressing. I have peat moss to go down after I put the seed in.


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

Hi capples3! Welcome to TLF!

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but you are outside of the optimal seeding date in Ontario, so chances of success are slim. Optimal seed-down date for your area is mid-August, if not earlier.

Question, though, what are you looking to do with the top soil? Are you using it to level low spots? Or just as a general top-dressing? 2 yards is quite a bit for 1,000 SF, so it'd be helpful to know what the goal is.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

Ya, I knew it's going to be a bit of a stretch to get it done. I need to level it out and give it a nice seed bed. I know I'm on the very late side of things. But I'm willing to give it a shot anyway.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

We have been constantly been in the 90's with humidity so I'm hoping that I can get 6 weeks before the first frost.


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

For leveling you definitely want the top soil over the top dressing. The top dressing is likely to have a higher percentage of organic matter, which will eventually decompose and leave you with the same issues you have now.

Just a word of caution, though, I'd only use the top soil to level the low spots and not all over the entire yard. Over time, if you keep on top dressing with top soil you'll end up with a giant mound of a yard. There's a picture that demonstrates this, I just can't find it ATM.

As far a a seedbed, your existing soil + the dead, scalped roundup'd grass works perfectly. Especially so when topping with a little peat moss.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Always great to see another Canadian. @chrismar isn't wrong. It is late but worth a shot if you've come this far. As a reference, my seed went down Aug 26. Today is day 22.

If past years are an indicator, we should have warm temps into Oct 20th or so. But you need to get that seed down ASAP. Although you guys in the 'Shwa might get different weather than us in Mississauga (hereto referred to as the Mecca!).

Once the soil and seed are down, get a roller and make sure the seed is in there good. Spread your peat and pray for a warm October.

Welcome to TLF!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The climate prediction center forecasted a warmer September and winter. There should be new OND map today/tomorrow with a better view and a new October at the end of September. While this might sound like good news, remember that forecast could be wrong. Get your seed down ASAP


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> The climate prediction center forecasted a warmer September and winter. ... Get your seed down ASAP


Just wanted to mention that temperature/weather is only one aspect of the issue. There's another aspect which even a warm fall won't help, and that's sunlight.

We often talk of putting fertilizer on our lawn to "feed' it, but the real food for grass is sunlight. The energy used by plants is almost entirely from photosynthesis, which requires sunlight to generate carbohydrates. The fertilizer just provides the raw materials that are used to build more / larger plant cells, but the energy to do that all comes from the sun.

The chart below comes from the field of solar energy generation, but shows "average peak sun hours" by month for Concord, NH, which is not only near me, but about the same latitude as most of the population of Ontario.










The takeaway from the chart for new grass establishment is that even if the weather remains warm, grass that germinates in late September gets about 3.5 "peak sun hours" per day, while grass that germinated in mid-August saw about 5 peak sun hours per day. So, even if the weather remains warm enough for the grass to keep growing, there's a lot less energy available for the baby grass plants to grow.

Another thing to note from the chart is that there's less energy in October sunlight than there was in March. Nobody would dream of growing grass in Ontario in March, but there's more sunlight to do so at that time than in October! Even September just barely exceeds March in terms of energy in the sunlight.

The latest I've successfully seeded KBG here in NH was September 9th, and that was extremely thin before winter, and didn't grow enough to need cutting until May 9th the following year.

I've successfully seeded PRG here in NH as late as Oct 11th due to septic tank repairs. Only about half of it germinated and got tall enough to survive the winter, but enough of it did to hold the soil in place through the winter.

That said, you've got nothing to lose by trying to seed now -- the worst that can happen is it fails completely, and you'll have to do spring seeding anyway, but that's no worse off than if you do nothing now. However, at this time of year, every day starts to matter a lot.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

Thanks to you all for your suggestions. So here is the gameplan, and I'll figure out how to post a lawn journal

Tomorrow: Getting 1cu ft of screened topsoil in and put down. 
Roll and level the new topsoil. 
Put down grass seed. TTTF 
Roll again.
Put in starter Fert
Peat Moss put on top
Water 3x daily
Hope for another massive heat wave 

Sunlight: I have 100% coverage with sunlight. No trees to contend with in the backyard so I guess I'll be lucky in that respect.

I'll keep you updated on the progress. Glad to be here. Thanks for welcoming me to the group!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

capples3 said:


> Sunlight: I have 100% coverage with sunlight. No trees to contend with in the backyard so I guess I'll be lucky in that respect.


That will help. Git 'r done soon and you've got a decent shot at having a nice lawn there by spring!


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## Grasshopper (Nov 12, 2017)

Welcome to TLF!
Always great to see another Canadian member here.
Best of luck on your reno!


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

So as an update to this. I'm 100% doomed. Got my "screened topsoil" in this morning. Looked more like screened rock with some dirt.


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

Doesn't look that bad to me. Just looks like clumps of hardened dirt. Should break up with a good rain or if you roll it.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

Ya I've rolled it over a few times it's rocks lol.


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

Even still, once the grass is there you won't see the rocks. I have extremely rocky soil, and now that the lawn is established you would never know it (unless you tried to dig a hole, and in that case, good luck!).


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

Day 6 and I have germination of my TTTF by using a flashlight trick in the night. Expecting 2 inches of rain in the next 2 days, hope washout doesn't become an issue.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

So I totally forgot to update this post. My lawn turned out great. Will need to fill in a few bare spots, but overall, very happy it took that late in the season.


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