# Combining/Overlapping Herbicides



## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Still relatively new to the game at an aspiring tier 2 level...

2,4-D (last applied Friday) has been incredibly useful so far. I'm running into a few obstacles that I need other treatments for:

Sedge - Picked up the Ortho hose attachment bottle for this (haven't used it yet)
Crabgrass - Ordered Quinclorac 75 and should arrive in a few days

Some of these - especially the Quinclorac, overlap in terms of what they can treat.

Can I combine Quinclorac right into my 2,4-D mix or at least spray similar times? Same question for the Sedge.

Thanks in advance!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes you can. That's what Weed B Gon is, a mixture of different herbicides (3-way or 4-way). But be careful with rates. I would not go max rate of every single one at once.

FYI Quinclorac needs MSO instead of NIS.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

g-man said:


> Yes you can. That's what Weed B Gon is, a mixture of different herbicides (3-way or 4-way). But be careful with rates. I would not go max rate of every single one at once.
> 
> FYI Quinclorac needs MSO instead of NIS.


I actually have never used a surfactant. Rather than further complicate things would you just advise not using one at all, since they require two separate ones?

I'll pursue surfactants next season most likely.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You need one for the Quinclorac to work. MSO is an oil that in simple terms makes the quiclorac stick/spread into the surface of the crabgrass leaf blades. The water (that carries the quinclorac) will just run down into the soil and do nothing.

Other herbicides need a non-ionic surfacant (NIS). Tenacity as a post emergent needs it.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

g-man said:


> You need one for the Quinclorac to work. MSO is an oil that in simple terms makes the quiclorac stick/spread into the surface of the crabgrass leaf blades. The water (that carries the quinclorac) will just run down into the soil and do nothing.
> 
> Other herbicides need a non-ionic surfacant (NIS). Tenacity as a post emergent needs it.


Yeah, I just read that actually after you wrote the last post. If I have separate sprayers for 2,4-D and Quinclorac, can I use dish soap for the Quinclorac in a pinch?  I'm killing my budget and if I can save a few on this one I would love to. Sounds like certain types of dish soap are ok but some are not.

Question Part 2 - If they happened to be in the same bottle, can I just use a surfactant for the Quinclorac, or would I need to put both in the mix? (Although again for right now if I could just put the Quinclorac in it's own bottle with some soap, I'd be good to go...) If not, do you recommend something of "decent" value?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think you could mix Quinclorac with 2,4-D with MSO (Methylated Seed Oil). I'm not sure dish soap will work instead of MSO.

I'm not clear with question part 2.

Let's ping an expert in this. I normally just use WBG + Crabgrass control since I barely have weeds. @Greendoc


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

g-man said:


> I think you could mix Quinclorac with 2,4-D with MSO (Methylated Seed Oil). I'm not sure dish soap will work instead of MSO.
> 
> I'm not clear with question part 2.
> 
> Let's ping an expert in this. I normally just use WBG + Crabgrass control since I barely have weeds. @Greendoc


Thanks! To try and clarify - if I understand correctly there is a surfactant for 2,4-D and a surfactant for Quinclorac - both different. if I wanted to put in one bottle and create some "supermix", would I have to use both surfactants, or can I just use the one for Quinclorac since that is the only one that truly needs it? 
Still that being the case, I will say I'd like to simplify, plan on using 2 separate sprayers, one for 2,4-D so I don't need surfactant as a must and one for Quinclorac - for that I need to figure out what I need to buy - sounds like MSO. Hope this helps and doesn't further confuse the issue!!


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If you apply Quinclorac, 2,4-D based broadleaf weed killer and the Ortho Nutsedge killer all in one application, that is like mixing your own Q4+. Q4+ is a PBI professional product designed for spot treatment of all the weeds found in a cool season lawn. MSO is a very good surfactant for Quinclorac, however if used with the Ortho Nutsedge Killer in warm weather, severe scorching of desirable turf is possible. In you case, it might be a good idea to treat for the broadleaves and Crabgrass with one mix and go after the sedges with another applied later.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Doc

In one bottle, 2,4-D + quinclorac + MSO?

And you would not recommend any other surfacant than MSO with quinclorac, correct?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Correct. Quinclorac is not very effective when applied with other surfactants. BTW, adding dish liquid to herbicides may neutralize them. The surfactants in dish liquid are similar to the products I use to flush and neutralize a spray rig when changing products or using for tree and ornamental work.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

Most dish soaps are ionic like Sodium Laureth Sulfate. I once found some that was labeled Non Ionic and bought it. Usually non ionics aren't so great for washing dishes. They feel too oily for most folks.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

g-man said:


> Doc
> 
> In one bottle, 2,4-D + quinclorac + MSO?
> 
> And you would not recommend any other surfacant than MSO with quinclorac, correct?


Ops I've been using nis surfactant with my quinclorac....I didn't realize there was different kinds. Guess I need to get some mso. 
Btw it did work tho the crabgrass died


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

That thing about the surfactant is not carved in stone. However, the right surfactant makes a big difference on old, hardened off weeds or big weeds.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

gene_stl said:


> Most dish soaps are ionic like Sodium Laureth Sulfate. I once found some that was labeled Non Ionic and bought it. Usually non ionics aren't so great for washing dishes. They feel too oily for most folks.


Thanks so much all. So to recap, the plan at the moment is one sprayer - 2,4-D (no surfactant). Another bottle - Quinclorac + MSO.

I plan on reseeding but if I do this approx. 7-10 days prior I should be ok, correct?

Thanks!

(Hopefully shouldn't matter but should just also add I'm using the Ortho sprayer attachment bottle for Sedge that has popped up recently as well)


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

there are a lot of different surfactants and spreader stickers. I don't know if it makes too much difference. Or enough difference for a scientific paper.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> Correct. Quinclorac is not very effective when applied with other surfactants. BTW, adding dish liquid to herbicides may neutralize them. The surfactants in dish liquid are similar to the products I use to flush and neutralize a spray rig when changing products or using for tree and ornamental work.


Is MSO doing anything, good or bad, to the 2,4-D in this mix?


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## chriscarigs (Jul 10, 2018)

1 week ago I used Quinclorac with 1 oz of Johnsons baby shampoo. 1 week later the crabgrass is smoked. I'm sure there are better options but the baby shampoo worked for me. I was planning to use the same sprayer with 2-4-d to get some of the broad leaf weeds this week. I assume that shouldn't be a problem.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> Still relatively new to the game at an aspiring tier 2 level...
> 
> 2,4-D (last applied Friday) has been incredibly useful so far. I'm running into a few obstacles that I need other treatments for:
> 
> ...


I used the ortho WBG CCO hose attachment bottle and thought it was AWEFUL for application. It was hard to control and sprayed all over the place.

It came out of the bottle like projectile vomit.  Did kill the weeds but man it was messy!! In the future I will mix concentrate into a backpack sprayer.

A really easy but probably less effective option is to get "roundup for lawns". This is a watered down 4 way herbicide that comes with a convenient battery sprayer wand. I used that this year and it worked well as part of my weed management program but next year it's concentrates all the way.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Mozart said:


> I used that this year and it worked well as part of my weed management program but next year it's concentrates all the way.


I think that this is the way to go :thumbup:


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