# New Lawn Kentucky Blue Idea Zone 7. Critique Welcome



## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

Hello, new member here. I have about Quarter Acre, but I wanted to start small just doing my front Lawn which is about a tenth of an acre. Maybe smaller.

I would like to put down Kentucky Blue early this spring. I think I have a few Ideas.

Last soil check pH was 5.8 put down 40 pounds of lime, only 20 was needed. All minerals are low but zinc and Iron which is very very high naturally and is the reason for choosing Blue Grass. There is barely a good amount of k also should be noted.

I can cut to the lowest setting then spread Black Kow compost, or leaf or mushroom compost. I could make it in pretty good throw my grass seed down by hand and cover it with a very light coat of earthworm castings.

I have fertilizers here organic and synthetic but in liquid form. In abundance Right now I would like to use a month after grass is growing and nutrients from soil breaks down. I can post ratios if needed. It will be easy to inject it into my sprinkler system. I am thinking of using Neptune's harvest seaweed and Rose and flowering at a low part per million as it is a low ratio at 2-6-4. I would like to apply this the night before rain or right before as the fish hydrolysis has a smell and the molasses in it can be sticky but not thick to clog.

Or I can just throw seeds down and top dress with bio tone I have.

Let me know what you guys think!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to the site.

I'm going to start with referencing this article. This is a work in progress for then winter months and we all have been busy with christmas and snow, but it has some good info. http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595

KBG is the transition zone is a challenge. It is doable, but it will struggle in the summer months. You should have a way to irrigate it and deal with fungus from the high humidity. There are a couple of members that have successfully done it and other that have tried and switched to TTTF.

When you say, _put down KBG_, do you mean a renovation (kill your current grass and have bare dirt) or an overseed? Most of us have failed to successfully overseed KBG into an established lawn. KBG takes weeks to establish and get choked by the existing lawn.

Lastly, spring seeding is also normally a failure too. The grass is too young with young roots to survive the summer heat/dry soil. You will need a very solid irrigation plan with even coverage and be lucky to have a mild summer. We (and multiple universities) recommend to seed around August for the north areas. Most transition zone folks would target mid September for the seed down day. The fall has nicer temperature and it gives the grass time to develop better roots going into winter and then during spring.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Welcome to the forum fellow Richmonder! As g-man says, KBG can be difficult here, particularly without irrigation. That's probably the most important question to answer first. Can you easily irrigate? Without it, fescue may be easier for you to maintain. Again, to echo g-man, Spring seeding will be tough as well. You may want to search through some of my threads and j4c11's threads for more info on KBG in similar climates. I irrigate through summer, but he's been experimenting with the best cultivars and practices while embracing summer dormancy.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> Welcome to the site.
> 
> I'm going to start with referencing this article. This is a work in progress for then winter months and we all have been busy with christmas and snow, but it has some good info. http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595
> 
> ...


Hey G man I read on a site early spring was ok, I read your thread it said fall. Good thing about it is I can do the Fall I'm in no rush. I can also irrigate. We do not get mild summers. It will get hot at some point, extremely hot and humid.

I did not intend on killing my existing lawn, I was just going to overseed the established lawn. I'm not sure if I would be pumped to kill my lawn (if you want to call it that). I could but the lack of knowledge could be a limiting factor.
Maybe I should look into the turf type tall fescue.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> Welcome to the forum fellow Richmonder! As g-man says, KBG can be difficult here, particularly without irrigation. That's probably the most important question to answer first. Can you easily irrigate? Without it, fescue may be easier for you to maintain. Again, to echo g-man, Spring seeding will be tough as well. You may want to search through some of my threads and j4c11's threads for more info on KBG in similar climates. I irrigate through summer, but he's been experimenting with the best cultivars and practices while embracing summer dormancy.


Hey! 
I knew I would run into someone close to home. 
Yes I can irrigate. Does yours go dormant in the summer or does the irrigation keep them thriving?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Boomerang said:


> Hey G man I read on a site early spring was ok, I read your thread it said fall. Good thing about it is I can do the Fall I'm in no rush. I can also irrigate. We do not get mild summers. It will get hot at some point, extremely hot and humid.
> 
> I did not intend on killing my existing lawn, I was just going to overseed the established lawn. I'm not sure if I would be pumped to kill my lawn (if you want to call it that). I could but the lack of knowledge could be a limiting factor.
> Maybe I should look into the turf type tall fescue.


Spring seeding is possible, but it is risky and I dont recommend it. Not only there is issue with the summer, but also with weeds since you cant apply a PreM. Sometimes it has to be done in spring (ie new house construction). Here is an article from Purdue around how to seed in spring. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-20-W.pdf

Killing your lawn and starting for bare dirt is called a Renovation (aka Reno). Some members Reno their lawn every some often to try out new grass seed with different properties. It is something that requires experience and luck to pull it off.

So, let me start the conversation in a different way. How is your lawn currently? What do you like about it? What you dont like? What will be your ideal goal? In essence, Tier 1, 2, or 3?


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> Boomerang said:
> 
> 
> > Hey G man I read on a site early spring was ok, I read your thread it said fall. Good thing about it is I can do the Fall I'm in no rush. I can also irrigate. We do not get mild summers. It will get hot at some point, extremely hot and humid.
> ...


The lawn isn't terrible, just unkept. When grass is allowed to grow do not notice many weeds however they may take over the yard.
Liked
Well the lawn is green to a degree with no current maintenance.
It survives the summer without irrigation.
Does alright in the fall
Dislikes
Part of it being green is the equal amount of weeds.(dandelion, clovers,wild onion,some crab grass)
Some visible spots.
No even carpet of grass.

Ideal goal
1.Is to have 1 grass growing, no weeds!
2.Nice tall dense Even carpet which means picking the right genetics! And new mower or higher wheels at least, 
3. Deep Green grass. I'm sure this is genetics digging in my own irrigation and using good feeding habits and keeping a sharp blade to keep from tearing instead of cutting

What do you think?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Based on those goals I would suggest a Tier 1 leaning towards 2.

Put down a PreM in spring. It is the easiest way to deal with weeds.
Do another soil test to see if there was improvements from the last one.
Feed the lawn with nitrogen and add a source of K. Ideally Sulfate of Potash (SOP) 0-0-50, but it is hard to find.
Overseed in the fall if you still have visible spots.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> Based on those goals I would suggest a Tier 1 leaning towards 2.
> 
> Put down a PreM in spring. It is the easiest way to deal with weeds.
> Do another soil test to see if there was improvements from the last one.
> ...


I will have tons of spots when I do that. The tttf is your recommendation?


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> Based on those goals I would suggest a Tier 1 leaning towards 2.
> 
> Put down a PreM in spring. It is the easiest way to deal with weeds.
> Do another soil test to see if there was improvements from the last one.
> ...


Also here's another question. Should I even be using cool season grass?


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Boomerang said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Based on those goals I would suggest a Tier 1 leaning towards 2.
> ...


Hi, I'm your neighbor to the east of you in New Kent Co. My lawn is located within a several acre wooded lot next to a private fresh water lake; I get a mix of sun & shade throughout the year. The soil is loamy sand which doesn't hold nutrients well.

I'm just past one year in a new home construction, trying to get a decent lawn established with drought tolerance capabilities in mind. Tested soil pH is 5.4 so been adding lime, mulching leaves, and amending with Black Kow compost.

I thought about going with warm season Zoysia grass, but I prefer the cool season varieties better. Last Spring I put down TTTF and late Summer/early Fall I put down mix TTTF, hybrid bluegrass, and ryegrass. Overall, the lawn is ~75% established, but still have thin areas. I'm sure it will take another year or two of soil improvement and seeding to get full grass to thicken up.

At the end of the growing season last year, the narrower blade ryegrass and hybrid bluegrass were doing very well with no diseases, but the wider blade TTTF all blades practically had a varying amount of Helminthosporium disease. I suspect the disease was present and amplified due to limited Fall sun getting though the wooded trees, the ground dampness, and my mistake of putting down too much fast-release synthetic N fertilizer. I plan to put down more of the slow-release organic fertilizer this year.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

@Boomerang, I'd go with g-man's plan and overseed TTTF in the Fall. Mountain View seeds distributes a very good blend of their best cultivars locally by the name of Southern Belle. You can probably pick it up at any of the Pleasant's locations around town in September. That'll give you plenty of time to watch the forum and read through past threads. Don't be surprised if you're ready to kill it all off for a full renovation by then though. ;-)


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

Powhatan said:


> Boomerang said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


Hello neighbor!
I plan on using the same compost. I also intend on using a fast release N source which is organic but chelated so it absorb very fast. 
Not too happy to hear about your tttf, is that what they call brown patch?
How do your tttf do in the sunny areas?


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> @Boomerang, I'd go with g-man's plan and overseed TTTF in the Fall. Mountain View seeds distributes a very good blend of their best cultivars locally by the name of Southern Belle. You can probably pick it up at any of the Pleasant's locations around town in September. That'll give you plenty of time to watch the forum and read through past threads. Don't be surprised if you're ready to kill it all off for a full renovation by then though. ;-)


Yikes! Im afraid to reno, so I love jman idea of killing all the weeds then seeding the bare areas in the fall. Sounds like a damn good idea.
What makes that blend so good at pleasants?


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Boomerang said:


> Hello neighbor!
> I plan on using the same compost. I also intend on using a fast release N source which is organic but chelated so it absorb very fast.
> Not too happy to hear about your tttf, is that what they call brown patch?
> How do your tttf do in the sunny areas?


I'm on well water so I don't routinely irrigate the lawn, mainly rely on mother nature. TTTF went dormant during the hot summer, it started to perk up once we got some decent rain again. Here's the back yard in late October.


Best I determined the disease symptoms on the TTTF were "Leaf Spot" and "Melting Out". The below picture was taken in late November. Some tree leaves in the nearby woods also showed varied signs of leaf spot, so I'm guessing the disease is a natural annual occurring event during Fall when the sun is low and barely rising over the tree tops thus keeping the ground damp.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Boomerang said:


> What makes that blend so good at pleasants?


The blend last year had three of the best NTEP performing TTTF cultivars - Raptor, Titanium, and Firecracker, and is blue tag certified. You can purchase all of these and other great cultivars and have them shipped to you, but if you want to pick up something off the shelf, it's the best I've found locally.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

This Southern Belle seed I purchased last summer.

Hosting service removed picture.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> Boomerang said:
> 
> 
> > What makes that blend so good at pleasants?
> ...


I had no idea of all the different types of fescue. I knew of Kentucky 31 for Fields. Powatan uses the same brand you speak of but look at how his fescue performed with that brand?


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Boomerang said:


> I had no idea of all the different types of fescue. I knew of Kentucky 31 for Fields. Powatan uses the same brand you speak of but look at how his fescue performed with that brand?


It's only the first year trying to establish a lawn. I didn't put down any fungicides, actually I don't want to put down any fungicides or herbicides if I can help it. I hand pull weeds. Need another year or two to have lawn mature. Lawn maintenance is a marathon, not a sprint. :thumbup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This is a publication from the Virginia Tech and VSU. It shows the recommended varieties for each county. You will notice that TTTF is recommended for the entire state. You could grow bermuda too, but you will have a brown dormant lawn from late Sept to April. https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/426/426-719/426-719.pdf

There are hundreds and hundreds of different species for each of the main varieties (kbg, ttf, perrenial ryegrass, zoyia). They get tested at different sites and evaluated. The reports (NTEP) are published and reviewed to select the best cultivars for a region. The seeds are then sold within a mix (blend) or monostand (only one species). A lot of our members have picked and tested in their lawns some of the varieties. The analogy is like picking wine. You might pick a red or white wine. Within the reds you could then pick a blend of left bank Bordeaux (mostly Cabernet Sauvignon and some Merlot) or you could just get a Merlot from the left bank.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> This is a publication from the Virginia Tech and VSU. It shows the recommended varieties for each county. You will notice that TTTF is recommended for the entire state. You could grow bermuda too, but you will have a brown dormant lawn from late Sept to April. https://pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/426/426-719/426-719.pdf
> 
> There are hundreds and hundreds of different species for each of the main varieties (kbg, ttf, perrenial ryegrass, zoyia). They get tested at different sites and evaluated. The reports (NTEP) are published and reviewed to select the best cultivars for a region. The seeds are then sold within a mix (blend) or monostand (only one species). A lot of our members have picked and tested in their lawns some of the varieties. The analogy is like picking wine. You might pick a red or white wine. Within the reds you could then pick a blend of left bank Bordeaux (mostly Cabernet Sauvignon and some Merlot) or you could just get a Merlot from the left bank.


How bad do you think preventative fungicide will effect soil life?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

How bad depends. It depends on what fungicide (foliar/root), how often, on your soil structure and percent of organic material within. A fungicide will affect all the fungi within the soil, the good and bad fungi. Plus it will also affect the mycorrhizae. Virginiagal posted this info a while ago. http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=450

I'm of the opinion to avoid fungicides in my soil. I have a few in the garage ready to be used but I avoid them. I prefer to follow practices that avoid fungus from thriving. I know it is harder in the transition zone since there are more warm/humid days.


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## Boomerang (Jan 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> How bad depends. It depends on what fungicide (foliar/root), how often, on your soil structure and percent of organic material within. A fungicide will affect all the fungi within the soil, the good and bad fungi. Plus it will also affect the mycorrhizae. Virginiagal posted this info a while ago. http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=450
> 
> I'm of the opinion to avoid fungicides in my soil. I have a few in the garage ready to be used but I avoid them. I prefer to follow practices that avoid fungus from thriving. I know it is harder in the transition zone since there are more warm/humid days.


Yea I'm concerned about brown patch where we live my neighbor had it. Any tips?
Makes no sense adding compost, worm castings to kill everything that makes it work.


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