# St. Aug conundrum and now reno adventure!



## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

I want to pick some brains and see what you guys think I should do. Been lurking for a bit and have seen a couple of you guys on youtube. Lots of good stuff on there and here. I also know that there are not a lot of St. Aug lovers out there, but I'll give it a shot. 
Now to my predicament: Around 18k sqft of a garden salad, both front and back, with nutsedge, clover, dove weed and all sorts of other lovely non turf type vegetation going on. Celcius and sedgehammer are on order and a pre-E will be going down. I have some very strong patches of St. Aug in the front leading me to believe that it once was a St. Aug lawn in its day. There is also some centipede and Bermuda throughout. I have all my Milo, starter fert and winter seed just waiting for me to pull the trigger. 
The back yard is going to get the Bermuda treatment but I am not sure what to do with the front. I have a huge water oak that shades a good bit of my front corner so I am hesitant to throw down some Princess 77, or something like it, and needing to fill that shaded area. 
To add to all of this, I am getting free fill from a friend of mine and will be getting it later this week. I know its not prime time to fill and level but free fill is free fill, I'll take what I can get. I'm guessing its too late to sod St. Aug and I am going to have to throw rye down to keep the dirt in place. I have a lot to fill and level. The property had renters before us and wasn't ever really maintained or ever really taken care of. I have taken down a bunch of trees and ground the stumps down in preparation to fill and have a rolling hill free lawn. My grade runs back to front, back being the highest. I'm not sure how far it drops down(feet not inches) but erosion is an issue, hence the need to do so much filling and leveling. Sorry for the all over the place post but I hope I can get some good feedback and ideas on here. I will post pictures later, when I can pull photos from my phone, I know those will help. Thanks and look forward to learning as much as I can.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Just a couple of thoughts. It's really to late in the season to treat summer grassy weeds. Most stop translocating herbicides in August. The one exception that comes to mind is Dallisgrass. Like wise it is too late for the nutsedge as well. Both grassy weeds and nutsedge are more easily controlled in the late spring and early summer. However most broadleaf weeds still respond to herbicides in the fall. So feel free to spray those.

I personally think it's a bad idea to add fill dirt at this time of the year even if it's free. Erosion risk is too great over winter. Wait till the spring. You can usually get 10-12 yards of top soil delivered for less than $200. So the free soil might not have the value you once thought. The idea of "free fill dirt" makes me cringe. I would always source my soil from a legitimate supplier. It's important to know exactly what you are getting.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

high leverage said:


> Just a couple of thoughts. It's really to late in the season to treat summer grassy weeds. Most stop translocating herbicides in August. The one exception that comes to mind is Dallisgrass. Like wise it is too late for the nutsedge as well. Both grassy weeds and nutsedge are more easily controlled in the late spring and early summer. However most broadleaf weeds still respond to herbicides in the fall. So feel free to spray those.
> 
> I personally think it's a bad idea to add fill dirt at this time of the year even if it's free. Erosion risk is too great over winter. Wait till the spring. You can usually get 10-12 yards of top soil delivered for less than $200. So the free soil might not have the value you once thought. The idea of "free fill dirt" makes me cringe. I would always source my soil from a legitimate supplier. It's important to know exactly what you are getting.


 Thanks for the quick reply and good info.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

FRD135i said:


> high leverage said:
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> 
> > Just a couple of thoughts. It's really to late in the season to treat summer grassy weeds. Most stop translocating herbicides in August. The one exception that comes to mind is Dallisgrass. Like wise it is too late for the nutsedge as well. Both grassy weeds and nutsedge are more easily controlled in the late spring and early summer. However most broadleaf weeds still respond to herbicides in the fall. So feel free to spray those.
> ...


I should admit that I know very little about St. Augustine or Centipede grass. So take my advice with a grain of salt


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

First three are of the front yard and the last one is of the back. Sorry the smoker is in the way but it's the only picture I have where I have taken the trees out and put the fence up.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

You mentioned sodding....you might consider tifftuff for curb appeal, disease resistance in shaded. Ntep trials suggests it's great if it gets some light, sometime during the day.

(Assume soil ph is in line)


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

I'm not in love with sodding, but it's the only way to get fast St. Aug coverage. I would love something I could over seed and maintain that way. I just do know what to do with the area around/under the tree. Plus it will completely change my reno strat if I take it down and do a "short" grass. With St. Aug, I was just going to fill, level, then checker board sod. I could get away with that due to the 3.5-4.5" HOC.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

To make sure I understand - Are you looking to have the same type of turf grass throughout your entire lot or one type in the front and another type in the back?


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> To make sure I understand - Are you looking to have the same type of turf grass throughout your entire lot or one type in the front and another type in the back?


If I go St. Aug in the front, they will be different. If I seed the front, I will do the same for the entire lot. That's what I am having trouble deciding.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

FRD135i said:


> Movingshrub said:
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Got it.

I would encourage you to make sure you have the right plant in the right place. You are going to have considerations such as climate, how much maintenance you're willing to accept, whether you have an irrigation system, the amount of wear and tear you expect to get, etc. that all go into determining which turf grass it the right choice for your yard.

I am going to assume the primary contenders, based on where you live, are Bermuda, Zoysia, St Aug, and Centipede.

If you want to plant Bermuda, you're going to need sunlight, and lots of it. If you opted to plant TifGrand, TIFTuf, or Celebration Bermuda, you would likely be able to get away with some shade exposure. I have a post where I talk about measuring sunlight.
http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=421&hilit=tiftuf+dli#p7759

If you think sufficient light is going to be an issue, I would think Centipede or St Aug would be better options, depending on the cultivar since they aren't as needy on maintenance. Zoysia can be a viable option as well, depending on the cultivar.

Lastly, if you are wanting consistency of your lawn, you are either going to have to choke out the competing turf, use a selective herbicide to kill it while sparing the other stuff, or kill it all and start over.

I'd suggest making sure you know what turfgrass is expected to excel on your lot before making a decision which route to go.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> FRD135i said:
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Awesome, thank you. Those would be the big 4 contenders that I am looking at. It is just a bit intimidating going with the Bermudas and getting the base ready (prep) for some reel action or close cuts. Just a bit overwhelming trying to figure out the right moves and steps to take to get it right with minimum(growing) knowledge. Should have stayed in school at Texas A&M and got that grass degree.

Just for info sake, USDA Zone 8b : 15 to 20 (F)

Thanks again for everyone's time and help.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If you're willing to cut grass all the time and have lots of light, bermuda will spread quickly. It doesn't have to be cut at reel mower heights. There are plenty of people using rotary mowers and cutting at 1-2".

If you're looking for less frequent cutting, zoysia is a really nice alternative but it's not going to handle intense wear and tear like Bermuda, ie, I haven't seen a zoysia soccer field yet, but there are plenty of really amazing zoysia lawns. It will handle shade better than most Bermuda variants. It can spread quickly or super slow depending on the cultivar you select.

If you're looking for really low maintenance, I would imagine centipede or st aug would be better alternatives. I don't have experience with these two so I don't have much to offer.

Just to drive home the point - figure out what options are viable, then pick from those for your yard; if you try to make a square peg fit in a round hole, you're going to have an uphill fight. Of course if there's something you really want to plant that wouldn't normally excel in that location, you can modify your environment by cutting down trees and adding irrigation.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> movinghrub said:
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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

How is your house oriented? Looks like maybe the front or back faces north?

Those trees look like maybe they don't have really large shadows. Hard to tell.. you might be able to go with any grass. But if you try and gage your shade by October 15th levels, it will be way off the peak of the season.. I have st Augustine and Bermuda and have an idea of how they perform in various shade/sun environments.

You can use this great tool to input your trees to see how the shadows will be cast at different times of the year. Just put the market where the tree, or whatever is casting the shadow is, input he height and set the date and time. It's totally accurate in my experience.

https://www.suncalc.org/

You really can't go wrong with any of those grasses. You'll always have some doubts when you have as many options on the table as you do. If you do a good amount of research and feel 90% about a grass, then just go with that and commit. You'll never get to 100% because you can't actually see and experience it on your lot.

I would also be weary of the "free dirt."... Nevertheless, looks like you've got a lot going on. Welcome to lawncare paradise.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Bunnysarefat said:


> How is your house oriented? Looks like maybe the front or back faces north?
> 
> Those trees look like maybe they don't have really large shadows. Hard to tell.. you might be able to go with any grass. But if you try and gage your shade by October 15th levels, it will be way off the peak of the season.. I have st Augustine and Bermuda and have an idea of how they perform in various shade/sun environments.
> 
> ...


The house faces North with the sun tracking left to right(in the picture) and yes, many things going on for it. Doing a live in renovation on the house itself, so that's always fun. The siding you see will be coming off to expose the original wood siding and a solid stain will go on. I have garden beds to put in and just an all around redo/reno of the yards. You are right in the fact that there are so many choices you can get lost a bit. Thanks for all of the advice so far and hopefully one day I'll be able to post it up in the lawn pics thread with some pride. Looks like I have some sun metering to do starting in spring.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Bunnysarefat said:


> if you try and gage your shade by October 15th levels, it will be way off the peak of the season


Yes to this.

Figure out how much light there is during the growing season. I reached out to Auburn's Turfgrass Dept to see if there was any way to measure in one season and then adjust to another time of year. I was advised not to go that route. They recommend I wait until the trees bloom/leaf. With that being said, if you don't think light is going to be an issue, then go ahead with removing/suppressing the unwanted turf. Lastly, be cognizant of your pre-emergent application if you're planning to plant seed; Don't put down a year's worth of an application of prodiamine and then try to plant in seven months.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
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> > if you try and gage your shade by October 15th levels, it will be way off the peak of the season
> ...


That was one of the questions I was going to research and read about. I know that it is bad to do a pre-e when you are going to seed but I would like to get the upper hand on fighting those invaders. Ill try and get a close up of the sedge and other weeds I have tonight, but yes, all you can eat Garden Salad Buffet. Don't want to have to fight it in full force next year.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

My weeds!!!! So hearty!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Normally I'd say to go grab some weed b gone, to smoke all the broadleaf stuff. However, both the yellow cap and orange cap versions are hazardous to st aug and centipede. So, you can either go with plan 2,4-d, or, reach into your wallet and go buy Celsius WG, which I expect others to recommend as well. With that being said, if you're considering replacement of everything, genetic glyphosate will take care of everything, including all the turfgrass, but not the sedges.

At a risk of sounding like a broken record, do you know what you want to keep? Bermuda in the back and st aug in the front?


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Normally I'd say to go grab some weed b gone, to smoke all the broadleaf stuff. However, both the yellow cap and orange cap versions are hazardous to st aug and centipede. So, you can either go with plan 2,4-d, or, reach into your wallet and go buy Celsius WG, which I expect others to recommend as well. With that being said, if you're considering replacement of everything, genetic glyphosate will take care of everything, including all the turfgrass, but not the sedges.
> 
> At a risk of sounding like a broken record, do you know what you want to keep? Bermuda in the back and st aug in the front?


The more I'm thinking about it, the more I want to go with a full nuke option and start new. Too many weeds and neglect over the years to contend with. Zoysia, tiftuf, or something along those lines. Most of the people in my neighborhood are retired folks and I need to step my game up and show them what a young whipper snapper can do. I just don't want them showing up for tee times though, haha. I really have to start spending some time on yalls renos and projects. The road is long


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

So what's your plan going forward?


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

If you're starting over you can just wait until early spring to get started, that will give you time to make a sound plan. As for the grass type, I would say it all depends on how many shady areas there will be and how much water competition you will get from trees. Your front yard looks like it would get plenty of sunlight for any grass type, with the exception of that huge tree. Have you thought about getting rid of the tree? The backyard looks like sunlight wouldn't be an issue for the most part depending on how far away those trees are and which direction the sunlight comes from.

St. Augustine would be your most shade tolerant grass, followed by Zoysia then Centipede. St. Augustine isn't going to give you a golf course lawn though, typically you mow it much, much higher than other warm season grasses like no lower than 3". Zoysia should be able to handle any shade in your lawn with the only thing worrying me that monster tree by the road. Its also very drought and wear tolerant, but it doesn't recover nearly as fast as Bermuda (you also don't have to mow it as often!).

I'm no expert though, someone here will likely give you a better answer. If you want the golf course low cut lawn then get rid of the tree and go with Bermuda. Not all Zoysia are recommended for cutting as low as Bermuda, but their are some cultivars that can be cut down to 1/4". I would get rid of the tree either way, but I'm not a big fan of trees in a yard.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> So what's your plan going forward?


Reading and more research. I'm trying to wrap my head around what I am going to do. Loosing the tree is not an option for now, I like the look of a big oak. We did do garden beds with top soil this weekend to get those established. I am glad I have the winter to plan my attack and try to do this the best possible way.

Has any one done a Bermuda(sun) and zoysia(shade) mix? Is it even possible?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Color would be the only concern with a mix. A zoysia matrella like zeon, zorro, or cavalier should be fine bladed enough to blend the texture. TifTuf matches well for color. 419 is to dark, celebration is to blue/gray, tifgrand to dark, etc. Honestly, if that were my yard I would sod with TifTuf and see how it goes. You can always add in some zoysia later if it is needed.


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

Not much will grow under that tree. Oak trees turn the soil very acid. You may want to consider turning the area under the tree into a perennial garden with acid loving plants. Azaleas love acid soil. I tried to grow bermuda grass under oak trees for 20 years. I had the limbs trimmed up for about 18 feet to help get light under the trees. One had roots that cracked the driveway. There was grass, but it was always thin. I had them taken down this past spring. It turned out that the other one was rotting in the middle. Better to have it falling in a controlled manner toward the street rather than the opposite direction during a storm. The difference in appearance of my yard is amazing. I will admit that I liked the shade that the trees gave, but the beauty of the grass makes up all that was lost.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

raldridge2315 said:


> Not much will grow under that tree. Oak trees turn the soil very acid.


Well, yes, and no.

You're absolutely right that "Not much will grow under that tree." It is difficult to grow grass under trees. Trees are heavy feeders that affect grass in multiple ways:


they outcompete grass for nutrients

they deplete the soil of nutrients that are NOT replenished by NPK fertilizers

they shade the grass, making it weaker and less vigorous (this is particularly true for warm-season grasses)

they outcompete the grass for water.

 the expanding roots can cause soil compaction as they displace soil as they grow

However, _*oak trees don't turn the soil acidic*_. This is a commonly-held belief, derived from the fact that oak leaves are acidic when fresh and contain tannin which, as a phenolic compound, is an acid. However, as decay of the leaves progresses, the composting/decaying process produces alkalinity, which has the end result of the decayed oak leaves being practically pH-neutral. But, don't just take my word for it, read one of these articles by horticultural specialists, such as Oak leaves have little effect on soil pH.

Most oaks are actually one of the easier trees under which to grow grass, as they tend to have deep root systems (instead of shallow, like maple trees) and can tolerate pruning of low branches to grow tall, allowing at least partial sunlight to reach the soil around the trunk of the tree as the day progresses.

By the way, pine needles don't cause acidity, either. Quoting from the article above,


> Pine needles carry the same reputation as oak leaves and acorns, but also have little effect on soil pH.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

FRD135i said:


> Reading and more research. I'm trying to wrap my head around what I am going to do. Loosing the tree is not an option for now, I like the look of a big oak. We did do garden beds with top soil this weekend to get those established. I am glad I have the winter to plan my attack and try to do this the best possible way.


Solid approach. How's the saying go? Proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance.

I kept several of my trees and raised the canopy on each where it was viable.



FRD135i said:


> Has any one done a Bermuda(sun) and zoysia(shade) mix? Is it even possible?


I did by accident. I plan to change that in the future cause I don't need the mixture and don't want to deal with the different color and growth habits, but they aren't mixed in well due to my own mistake. I just misidentified the zoysia in my yard, as Bermuda, and planted more Bermuda in the same area thinking they would blend. It hasn't been a year, so they may blend in the future. My case is definitely not the one to use for guidance in your situation. I imagine it could work if you had zoysia in the front yard and then Bermuda in the back, so that way you don't have a sharp juxtaposition between the two, and they could blend together in an area that isn't high visibility. Someone with more experience would have to chime in. Also, the to require different amounts of fertilizer. Too much nitrogen for zoysia can allegedly cause neon discoloration, where as the same amount of N applied to Bermuda would just translate into more growth.



Spammage said:


> Color would be the only concern with a mix. A zoysia matrella like zeon, zorro, or cavalier should be fine bladed enough to blend the texture. TifTuf matches well for color. 419 is to dark, celebration is to blue/gray, tifgrand to dark, etc. Honestly, if that were my yard I would sod with TifTuf and see how it goes. You can always add in some zoysia later if it is needed.


I'd figure out how much light is in there before picking. With that being said, I've been happy thus far with my tiftuf Bermuda. It's growing on the north side of my house and it seems to spread quickly. The downside is that I feel like I am cutting my grass constantly in the summer. To do over again, I would have given zoysias another look from a time requirement angle. I've got a toddler and it gets old spending six hours a week cutting the grass; 2 hours a day 2-3 times a week.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Lots of good info coming out, keep it coming. Thanks guys!


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Just an update, having fun with some winter seed. Taking time putting some fill in and seeing how it plays out.






Just put seed in the back, couldn't water both at the same time. Had to cover up lots of bobcat Work. Keeping up the good fight, full nuke option to go into spring.


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