# Anyone used a bobcat tiller (vs harley rake) to rehab?



## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

I'm about to rehab my back yard and was going for the harley rake (techincally a Toro Dingo + attachment) but my back yard soil is so, so bad, I'm wondering if I shouldn't use the mini bobcat + tiller instead and till in many yards of compost.

Normally I wouldn't do that, but you can't believe how bad my soil is. I killed everything last year, and that's made it worse, as the bermuda I seeded last year didn't survive the winter (no loss, I was going to replace it anyway). It's just solid, dead clay with no life in it. I fully understand the no-till concept as tilling destroys the soil structure, but in this case there's no structure to destroy. It looks like a baked-out New Mexico roadside park.

The bobcat would be cheaper and easier to source locally as well.

I'm just not sure if the tiller would leave the surface too rough. I understand the beauty of the harley rake is that it creates a nice smooth seedbed.

Thoughts?


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

If you till it, get some humid dg and till that in with it. It will help to break up the clay. You can roll it a few times to help get it back smooth before laying sod. I agree with you, if your soil is bad, it should be addressed. I wouldn't go too deep though. I had the same issue last year before sodding. I tilled only a small section because it was as hard as concrete. Tilled in dg with topsoil about 6" down. Grass looks great, needs leveling of course but so does the area that didn't get tilled.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

bp2878 said:


> If you till it, get some humid dg and till that in with it. It will help to break up the clay.


Thanks, I don't know what the DG is, though?

So the tiller doesn't leave big clumps? I don't mind the work of dragging it out smooth by hand if I need to, I just don't want huge clumps (like my clay would create with a walk-behind tiller).


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

Chocolate Lab said:


> bp2878 said:
> 
> 
> > If you till it, get some humid dg and till that in with it. It will help to break up the clay.
> ...


https://www.gardenersedge.com/the-andersonsreg-humic-dg-granular-soil-conditioner-humic-acid-40lb-bag/p/HUMDG/?kc=geshop20n,&mkwid=%7Cdm&pcrid=431407825607&pkw=&pmt=&plc=&prd=HUMDG&utm_source=google&utm_term=&utm_campaign=&utm_medium=cpc%7D&slid=&pgrid=105606008852&ptaid=pla-417433780937&gclid=Cj0KCQjwhtT1BRCiARIsAGlY51JQO8z-zE6kpkqT8716bgW09tFnuGLop8DPNb-vHL5d4je5nyTR3lwaArlKEALw_wcB


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

I wouldn't think so on the clumps, not with one like you are talking about. I've never seen the skid steer version, but If it is the same as the type that pulls behind a tractor it should be fine. I hired a guy with a 6' pull behind tiller for a food plot and it pulverized everything, clay included. Left soil the consistency of coffee grounds. The humic acid will help keep the clay from clumping back together. Mix some good soil and compost in there and you will be ready for sod. While you have the bobcat, you can grade it with the bucket , pack and smooth it the best you can. That will help with the unevenness that you will encounter. I would rather do this and have some lumps that you can fix later rather than a yard full of sod that won't grow.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Did you have a soil test done?


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

bp2878 said:


> I wouldn't think so on the clumps, not with one like you are talking about. I've never seen the skid steer version, but If it is the same as the type that pulls behind a tractor it should be fine. I hired a guy with a 6' pull behind tiller for a food plot and it pulverized everything, clay included. Left soil the consistency of coffee grounds.


 Wow, thanks, that sounds perfect. As I say, this soil is so bad that I almost need to think in terms of building a huge garden bed. Maybe this would be better for mixing everything together, and I know it would be cheaper and easier to get. (I'm in a small city without a big selection.)

And @SWB , it tested out as 90% concrete, 10 percent surface of Mars.

But really, no. I need need to at least use the home kit I bought. 
But I've done enough gardening to know that it lacks everything. I'll definitely be adding plenty of a balanced fertilizer once I get germination.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

The reason I asked is unless you know what you're dealing with it's like throwing chemicals & fertilizer at it hoping something sticks. Having a soil test done by your extension office will tell you exactly what amendments your soil needs.
I renovated 1 1/2 acres 12 years ago. I spent 2 years amending my soil per the extension office recommendation as my soil was so acidic they said nothing but weeds would grow.
I tilled in topsoil in a 14k area & then used a drag harrow to smooth.
I brought in a bobcat & Harley rake for the back. If you don't need additional topsoil, then the Harley rake is the way to go imo. You don't want to make more work than is necessary.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

@SWB Thanks for the info, swb. So when you say more work, you think the tiller would leave it too rough and I'd be fighting forever to smooth it out?

If you have acidic soil, you must live in a totally different climate from me. I have alkaline soil but that isn't the problem... it's awful compacted clay that is horribly lacking in organic matter, which means I go from Grand Canyon cracks in it when we haven't had rain (like now) to standing mucky water when it finally does.

Anyway, I do think the Harley would be better, and if they were both readily available I'd use it because it would leave a more finished product. But because my situation is so bad, like starting from scratch with a clay pasture, I wondered if the tiller would be about as good, and it's cheaper, faster (Harley would have to be transferred in), and from an easier to rent from company in my little burg.

I just need to get my butt in gear and call around and firm up the cost and time frame of each. Last time I checked was right before the virus threw everything into chaos.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Chocolate Lab said:


> @SWB Thanks for the info, swb. So when you say more work, you think the tiller would leave it too rough and I'd be fighting forever to smooth it out?
> 
> If you have acidic soil, you must live in a totally different climate from me. I have alkaline soil but that isn't the problem... it's awful compacted clay that is horribly lacking in organic matter, which means I go from Grand Canyon cracks in it when we haven't had rain (like now) to standing mucky water when it finally does.
> 
> ...


By more work I mean if you're comfortable with your soil PH, unless the ground is bumpy or you need to add topsoil or something then just slit seed it and call it a day. Tilling would be my last choice simply because it's the most work.
Good luck and keep us posted!


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

IMO spend the $20 on a Waypoint Analytical (or equivalent) soil test. At home kits aren't going to be anywhere near the breadth or accuracy of a laboratory test. If you're set on tilling (I wouldn't due to the resulting bumpy lawn), you might as well till in the necessary amendments vs. just compost. Soil tilth has more factors than particle size and organic matter. Ca::Mg ratio, Na levels, etc.

Also: getting turf established will bake organic matter into your soil over time via the root cycling effect. TheGrassFactor has a video on it on YouTube.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

adgattoni said:


> Also: getting turf established will bake organic matter into your soil over time via the root cycling effect. TheGrassFactor has a video on it on YouTube.


Yes, as bad as it was when I got here -- the only water faucet in the back didn't even work when I got here -- I've made it worse the last couple of years by killing what was there and nothing coming back. If I'd known I was going to do this a couple of years ago I actually would have sacrificed a year and grown some cover crop stuff to improve the soil and it would be pretty decent by now. As Gabe Brown the cover crop farmer says, you want a living root in the ground as long as possible.

Anyway, I got a price on the tiller and it's very reasonable, but I'm leaning away from that after reading these posts. I checked and they're supposed to get back to me on when they can get a harley rake in here, and it might be prohibitively expensive anyway. I might just rent a bluebird dethatcher like I did on my front and just do it the hard way with a bunch of raking and dragging. I don't mind the work as long as the end result is good.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

I have done 2 renovations with a tiller and would recommend it.

Till the area well, maybe even a couple passes.

Rake the area out to get rid of any excessive high spots.

Once the area is raked out, hit it with a drag mat, I tend to do circles dragging it behind a 4 wheeler or golf cart.

After that I would come back with some type of roller and smooth it out.

I would lay down your preferred chemicals and get busy.

If you sod sand the cracks at least twice in the first month with a drag mat or leveling rake

This picture was prior to any leveling. Just sanding the cracks.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

Thanks @95mmrenegade ! So it doesn't leave it too clumpy and rough?

I may do that, then. I put a post up about using a Bluebird dethatcher today before I saw this.

Your lawn looks great.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Here's a few pics of my renovation back in "09. This is a 14k area that had top soil added and tilled. My soil was the constancy of flour after the till. I smoothed it out with a drag harrow. It turned out great but it was a lot of work. If had to do again, I would slit seed & be done with it.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

Chocolate Lab said:


> Thanks @95mmrenegade ! So it doesn't leave it too clumpy and rough?
> 
> I may do that, then. I put a post up about using a Bluebird dethatcher today before I saw this.
> 
> Your lawn looks great.


If it's like a normal 18-20" tiller, no sir. It will bring anything in the soil to the top and your drag mat will reveal rocks and roll up any weeds grass or any inert matter.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

This was me tilling up some hard & ugly Georgia clay, leveled it with a 36" landscape rake, and rolled it with a water-filled plastic sod roller. The thing with clay is that, when dry, it pulverizes into dust! Ideally I would've amended it with a composted manure instead of the sandy topsoil I thought would help with soil structure.. clay & sand aren't the best of companions. 
At my moms place I did the same thing but threw in 2x bag rate of Milorganite (her soil was phoshorous deficient) as well as some biochar/compost mix, and tilled it in. Love the results.. soil is fed 4-6" down!

Full disclosure: I will admit that even with the sod roller the soil did not all settle evenly. Some areas compacted more than others so I do have some bumps here and there.

Conclusion? If you need to amend the soil structure then this is your chance to do so in a meaningful way. If you're good with the soil then don't open up the can of worms that tilling does.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

@SWB Ha, I guess I didn't even realize bermuda was ever slit seeded. I thought that was for cool season grasses and grains. I don't think anyone in my town has one to rent, though. I need to double check that.

Thanks to 95 and corneliani also. I have a lot to decide in the next week because I need to do this soon.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Chocolate Lab said:


> @SWB Ha, I guess I didn't even realize bermuda was ever slit seeded. I thought that was for cool season grasses and grains. I don't think anyone in my town has one to rent, though. I need to double check that.
> 
> Thanks to 95 and corneliani also. I have a lot to decide in the next week because I need to do this soon.


Check your local Home Depot. I bought my Classen there used from their rental inventory. I actually used it yesterday to prep a 1700k area. My soil was hard as a rock but all you need to do is stir up 3/4" or so as Bermuda seed only needs 1/8" cover.


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