# Help with per-emergent plan, please.



## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

Looking for a little help finalizing my plan. First year taking over my lawn after the spray company fired me as a client. Expectations too high apparently.

PreM plan for Bermuda and zoysia

Timing:
When soil temps reach 72° since POA germinates around 70° is my thought. Then again 45-60 days later?

Options:

Shooting for a 3 MOA approach.

Spectacle flo/Indaziflam 7.4%. 
Using this for sure and have on hand.
Yearly max 18.5 oz/A or .425oz/M
4 apps per year= .106oz/M or 3.13ml/M

Prodiamine. On hand so possible option.
Yearly max 2.30lbs/A or .83oz/M
4 apps per year .21oz/M or 5.95grams

Princep/ Simazine 41.9%. On hand so possible option. Was thinking of adding this during dormancy apps since it may ding the Bermuda when it's still green. Silly concern?

Pennant magnum/ S-Metolachlor 83.7% is another thought I had. I don't have it on hand but could purchase if it would be more beneficial as a substitute to the Prodiamine or the Princep. I could use this instead of Princep in early fall and late spring to prevent harming the turf is my thought.

I also have Negate 37 if that has any benefit in the plan.

I see tribute total mixed in some of the trials from UT shared by cldrunner . Worth purchasing? Maybe instead of the Pennant magnum?

Weeds I battle between both my properties are goosegrass, spurge, chamberbitter, sedge, doveweed, orchard grass, wild violet and poa. I'm sure there are winter weeds I'm forgetting.

I am completely open to suggestions and appreciate any advise. I would rather spend the time and money on PreM than post. I'm willing to bite the bullet on cost if need be.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

read through this if you're going multiple MOA

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31425


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@GoDawgs You have Indaziflam, Prodiamine, and Simazine on hand. No need for more. If you are worried about the Simazine then apply a lower rate in your first Fall and last Spring app. I have applied Simazine at the hybrid bermuda lower rates with no issues. Apply these three four times a year and you will be very happy with your results.


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## david_ (Aug 22, 2019)

Disclaimer - I minimize spraying b/c I'm lazy and I hate the process so I use granular *gasp* dithiopyr pre-m twice *gasp* per season.

That said, I would stop here:
Spectacle flo/Indaziflam 7.4%.
4 apps per year= .106oz/M or 3.13ml/M

I believe a post-em spray is inevitable so controlling breakthrough in your spring app should be easy.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

Thank you guys. I read through the thread you linked @Amoo316 very helpful. But it seems the more I read the more I want to learn but it's so deep that it can be overwhelming. @cldrunner do you not have any concern with the prodiamine and the indaziflam being applied together time after time? I guess the thought of root pruning could be weighing on my mind more than it should be.

Also, is my thinking correct that I should shoot for soil temps around 72° and falling in the fall? And then apply again 60 days later?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I'm not sure I would cut it as close to 70 as you're talking about. You're going to want it in the ground and ready to be working the first time they dip below 70. I was shooting for 2 weeks based on GC avg, obviously if we get freakish cold weather then yeah cut it close. I don't see any good reason to try to be that precise with it though considering the residual time.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@GoDawgs If I had a lot of shaded areas or weak turf I may be a little more cautious.

I do a soil analysis and apply NPK accordingly every year and apply preventive fungicide and insecticide treatments. It is amazing that when your turf does not have to compete with weeds how little NPK is needed to still have a great looking lawn. On a side note I do not reel mow so I do not know about the affects of that compared to 2-2.5 inch bermuda.

Because I am apply max rates(1/4 rate) four times per year I really do not ever have max rates in the soil at any given time. If you applied both at yearly max rates all at once their may be some issues with that.

Since my weed presence is bascially NIL I may even be inclined to reduce my Indaziflam rates. However, I have seen no issues with max yearly rates of all 3 pre-emergents applied four times a year.

I agree with @Amoo316on applying a little earlier. Cool-season annual weeds germinate with the first cold front and rain in September so I always try for the first week in September based on rain forecast. I apply again about November 1st.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@GoDawgs Been trying to PM you but seems like they are stuck in the outbox. I am in Milton and wondering if you would like to split any of the pre-em chemicals? I have prodiamine and simazine but don't have any Indaziflam or Pennant or Negate. I have had similar weed problems as well.

Plan right now for fall is split app prodiamine in September. Full 'zone defense' app of prodiamine, simiazine, and Negate in late October. Same in February and then switch over to prodiamine and pennant spring. I wouldn't mind adding Indaziflam to the mix.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Jagermeister said:


> Been trying to PM you but seems like they are stuck in the outbox.


This is normal. I believe the messages will stay in your outbox until they are read by the recipient. Just leave it there and it will get delivered.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

Sorry for the delay following back. Thank you guys for help. So it sounds like I need to apply fairly soon. I'll plan for the next week-10 days. Hopefully the weather is going to break soon. So instead of waiting 60 days for the 2nd app I'll hit it again at the 30 day mark. I'll worry less about the root pruning for now. I plan to soil test again in late winter/ early spring. Thank you again @cldrunner @Amoo316

@Jagermeister i see your PM and I will follow up now.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

This just seems like it's being made to be so complicated.

Grab your bottle of specticle, apply it twice a year. Once this fall, timed before poa will germinate, and then again in the spring when you've scalped and cleaned the yard up for green up coming.

This works so well for me I'm ready to start giving away bags of celcius to the parents for Halloween. Post emergence isn't in my rotation thankfully with the one mode.

I did ~sept 20th this past year, and ~Feb 20th. Within a couple days of there it seemed just about right.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

@FATC1TY I appreciate the way you think. No need to make things more complicated than they really are. Unfortunately that is a trait I definitely don't have. When I am uneducated on a subject I tend to go overboard trying to understand it. The PreM is one of those things I knew nothing about 2 months ago. My spray guy took care of it and I *griped about weeds all winter and summer. Year after year. So now that he kicked me to the curb i freaked myself out and have read so much and watched so many videos that my head is spinning. So I put together the best plan I could and put it out to the more knowledgeable folks here for some input. Maybe once I get a little more comfortable and knowledgeable, with real hands-on experience I will look back and realize I was waaaay overthinking this whole thing. It's comforting to know you are seeing very little weed pressure and using the single MOA approach. You were one of the people who started me down the spectacle path. If it doesn't work look for me around Halloween 🎃


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

GoDawgs said:


> @FATC1TY I appreciate the way you think. No need to make things more complicated than they really are. Unfortunately that is a trait I definitely don't have. When I am uneducated on a subject I tend to go overboard trying to understand it. The PreM is one of those things I knew nothing about 2 months ago. My spray guy took care of it and I *griped about weeds all winter and summer. Year after year. So now that he kicked me to the curb i freaked myself out and have read so much and watched so many videos that my head is spinning. So I put together the best plan I could and put it out to the more knowledgeable folks here for some input. Maybe once I get a little more comfortable and knowledgeable, with real hands-on experience I will look back and realize I was waaaay overthinking this whole thing. It's comforting to know you are seeing very little weed pressure and using the single MOA approach. You were one of the people who started me down the spectacle path. If it doesn't work look for me around Halloween 🎃


Hey, no worries. I read up and learn the modes as well. Fungicides is the next worm hole that interesting to learn from.

By all means, get the info, but put something into practice. Year one might not be what you envisioned, but learn from it each season.

Give the specticle a shot, watch the soil temps with the UGA weather stations, and GreenCast, and watch here, you'll start to see local people putting things down. Follow suit!


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

@FATC1TY good advise. Thank you. Yes I have already started down the fungicide hole and it's deep as well. I keep hearing watch the soil temps but I don't think I understand yet what I'm looking for? I see they are falling and I know I need to get it my app down before 72°. But not sure what else to watch?


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## gooodawgs (Jul 10, 2020)

@FATC1TY @GoDawgs I have the same 3 MOAs as well. I was thinking of doing my normal prodiamine & simazine mid-late Sept, then 30 days after following up with Esplande.

Any harm in that? Or should I have a different pairing?


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

@gooodawgs i can't give you any advise. I'll defer to the other guys that know this stuff. But I'm curious, what is the reasoning for leaving the indaziflam out of the first app?

And, GO DAWGS!


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Better to apply the initial app early than later. In North Atlanta, looking at the historical soil temps, it appears to be best to put this down no later than Sept 15. I would still keep an eye on your soil temps and your own individual situation. Let's say your front yard faces North and you have a lot of shade this time of year, your soil temps might cool down earlier than what the Greencast weather station is showing.


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## Bombers (Jul 14, 2020)

gooodawgs said:


> @FATC1TY @GoDawgs I have the same 3 MOAs as well. I was thinking of doing my normal prodiamine & simazine mid-late Sept, then 30 days after following up with Esplande.
> 
> Any harm in that? Or should I have a different pairing?


idk...if you're gonna do esplanade in one shot (not split), I would put that down first.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

@cldrunner @Amoo316

I believe I have almost finalized my approach/rates/timing. Can you see below and let me know if it looks ok or what should change? Sorry for some many questions!

Spectacle flo/Indaziflam 7.4%. 
Yearly max 18.5 oz/A or .425oz/M.
4 apps per year= .106oz/M or 3.13ml/M

Prodiamine. 
Yearly max 2.30lbs/A or .83oz/M
4 apps per year .21oz/M or 5.95grams

Princep/ Simazine 41.9%. 
4apps per year .75oz/ or 22.2ml/M

First app in fall around 74° soil temp. 
2nd app 45 days later. 
3rd app late winter as soil temps approach 55°?
4th app 45-60 days later? 
Will consider adding a Post-emergent (zone defense) to app 2 and 4 if necessary to cover any breakthrough. Correct?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

GoDawgs said:


> @cldrunner @Amoo316
> 
> I believe I have almost finalized my approach/rates/timing. Can you see below and let me know if it looks ok or what should change? Sorry for some many questions!
> 
> ...


Sorry buddy, I don't have time to sit down and check the math, getting ready to go out of town tomorrow, but that is basically exactly what I'll be doing in my yard this year, Indaziflam, Prodiamine & Simazine. Certainty Winter Post, Quinclorac Spring post with Sulfentrazone for sedges.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

Thank you man. I'm confident in everything except the simazine rate and the follow up timing for apps 2&4 but I will get it figured out. Have a safe trip and thank you again for all of your help. Greatly appreciated.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@GoDawgs That is a great plan. Remember Fall temps drop quickly with first cold front and rain.

That is exactly my pre-emergent plan. I think you will be very happy and should have very little breakthrough. Keep us updated as Spring rolls around. I think you will not find a need for much post except for an occasional spot spray.

I usually wait about 45-60 days for 2nd app depending on rain forecast.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

Awesome. @cldrunner I will definitely keep you updated. Thank you so much!


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## UltimateLawn (Sep 25, 2020)

GoDawgs said:


> @cldrunner @Amoo316
> 
> I believe I have almost finalized my approach/rates/timing. Can you see below and let me know if it looks ok or what should change? Sorry for some many questions!
> 
> ...


@cldrunner , I would be careful aiming for the max annual amounts unless you have a severe annual weed issue. Specticle Flo, Prodiamine and Pricep were my pre emergent recipe last year and they provided very good annual weed control. However my StAug was very slow to green up in the Spring probably due to root pruning. My yard is full sun, so I was hoping for a faster green-up. In previous Spring season years and before my pre-emergent apps, I had a very fast green-up. I can only assume that the green-up was slowed with all of the pre-emergent drops at high values.

This fall I'm going with more moderate apps. With three different herbicide classes, I'm thinking that weed control will still be excellent without so slow a Spring green-up. Here are my fall apps with rates. Dates are approximate but I will be watching soil temps as well.

*Round 1 - September 15th (Earlier if Cooler)*
Sunniland Prodiamine WG (65% Prodiamine) - 0.18 oz = 5 grams / 1,000 ft²
Specticle Flo (7% Indaziflam) - 0.138 floz = 4.08 ml = 81.6 drops / 1,000 ft²
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.37 floz = 10.9 ml = 218 drops / 1,000 ft²​*Round 2 - October 15th (Earlier if Cooler)*
Specticle Flo (7% Indaziflam) - 0.069 floz = 2.04 ml = 40.8 drops / 1,000 ft²
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.37 floz = 10.9 ml = 218 drops / 1,000 ft²​
Prodiamine has a long lifespan in the soil with minimal pruning while Specticle is a powerful pre emergent with more significant root pruning. At least that's what I've heard. I would be interested in what others are seeing.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

> @cldrunner , I would be careful aiming for the max annual amounts unless you have a severe annual weed issue. Specticle Flo, Prodiamine and Pricep were my pre emergent recipe last year and they provided very good annual weed control. However my StAug was very slow to green up in the Spring probably due to root pruning.


@UltimateLawn This year we all were slow to green up due to historically low temperatures during the spring. We also had one of the hardest late winter freezes in decades. St Augustine grasses in the DFW area were affected more than the Bermuda lawns.

Since I apply four times a year I really never have max rates in the soil at any given time. I always risk the slower green up due to using Simazine. I am willing to not be the first lawn to green up in the neighborhood if I have better weed control. In late Fall I do not really mind if I am not the last green lawn. To be honest with you after mowing 2 times a week in the Texas summer heat I am about ready for some slower growth.

If I was applying max rates in one Spring and Fall app I see where there could be some concern. Even more so if the turf was weakend or under stress due to a number of reasons which is always in the label. Over time I would love to reduce my 3 MOA approach to half to three quarter of max rates and still have great control.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I will add to the discussion that I too have started to notice a few things with regards to Specticle.

My weeds were nearly none. Fall application last year was perfect, if anything I was a touch late temp wise, but worked great. Spring had no weeds. Applied again in the spring, 5 months after my fall application I think.

Again, no weeds this spring and summer. Occasional pop up spurge near areas by the road, or next to neighbors yard who didn't have weed prevention, and only was it visible when I scalped late summer. I think my specticle ran the length of it's course, but still haven't seen goosegrass and haven't ever had crabgrass.

I will say that my backyard was very slow to green and grow in this spring. I suspect I had some root pruning issues with specticle in that area, as it was more shaded than my front. I had some thinning issues and erosion.

This year I am going to do 7 oz /acre rate for the fall for both the front and back, and see how that works for me. I might bump the spring application around to get more length of coverage, but likely report the 7oz/ acre rate. See if that helps my green up in the more struggling areas of the backyard.


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## UltimateLawn (Sep 25, 2020)

@FATC1TY , what you are describing with Specticle is exactly what I'm seeing. I'm running mild rates in the fall and a low rate in the Spring to keep a closer eye on it. Specticle is very effective, but also powerful. Give it time to decay in the soil before the green up.

All the beating we are giving Specticle, I must admit I barely had any summer weeds last year after my pre-spring app. Most of the weeds that I picked up were brought in some poorly managed sod. A lot of Dallisgrass!

Updated pre-emergent plan below...

Fall Round 1 - September 15th (Earlier if Cooler, Later if Warmer)
Sunniland Prodiamine WG (65% Prodiamine) - 0.183 oz = 5 grams / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Pre-Emergent protection
* Specticle Flo (7% Indaziflam) - 6 floz / acre = 0.138 floz = 4.08 ml = 81.6 drops / 1,000 ft² = 6 Months of Pre-Emergent protection*
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.37 floz = 10.9 ml = 218 drops / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Pre-Emergent protection

Fall Round 2 - October 15th (Earlier if Cooler, Later if Warmer)
Quali-Pro Prodiamine WG (65% Prodiamine) - 0.183 oz = 5 grams / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Pre-Emergent Protection
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.37 floz = 10.9 ml = 218 drops / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Pre-Emergent Protection

Spring Round 1 - March?
Quali-Pro Prodiamine WG (65% Prodiamine) - 0.183 oz = 5 grams / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Protection
*Specticle Flo (7% Indaziflam) - 0.023 floz = 0.68 ml = 13.6 drops / 1,000 ft² = 1 Month of Pre-Emergent Protection*
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.37 floz = 10.9 ml = 218 drops / 1,000 ft² = 3 Months of Pre-Emergent Protection

Spring Round 2 - April?
Quali-Pro Prodiamine WG (65% Prodiamine) - 0.09 oz = 2.5 grams / 1,000 ft² = 1.5 Months of Protection
Princep (41.9% Simazine) - 0.185 floz = 5.45 ml = 109 drops / 1,000 ft² = 1.5 Months of Protection


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

UltimateLawn said:


> @FATC1TY , what you are describing with Specticle is exactly what I'm seeing. I'm running mild rates in the fall and a low rate in the Spring to keep a closer eye on it. Specticle is very effective, but also powerful. Give it time to decay in the soil before the green up.
> 
> All the beating we are giving Specticle, I must admit I barely had any summer weeds last year after my pre-spring app. Most of the weeds that I picked up were brought in some poorly managed sod. A lot of Dallisgrass!
> 
> ...


I agree but it should be pointed out that saint Augustine is a little picky about Specticle Flo. 8-9oz per acre a year is likely the max.

Also those who cut low- have heavy sand bases, it's a bit more different than the label. There's lots of different variables, so my caution is to not just take the yearly max, split in 2 and all it done.

Professional guys usually go 4-7oz per acre per split app. Based on the extreme lack of weeds, I'm hesitant to go max rate at the detriment of the turf health.


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