# Early Prodiamine: Or, ***ing Trugreen



## jeffjunstrom (Aug 12, 2019)

Moved into a planned community last January, thought our one year complimentary Trugreen service was over by now. Came home today to find this. What is the effect at this temp? What are my options? My plan was to hit the lawn with prodiamine for a full 6 month app in about six weeks, so this feels super early to me.


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

Man, super bummer. If you were already gonna put down prodiamine then no real issues... just plan your second application 6 weeks earlier. You can do more research but I'm reasonably certain you could get away with an early summer application if right around .25-.34 floz per 1000 sqft (max rate .70 fl oz per year for KBG).... depending on how much fine fescue is in your sunny mix the max yearly rate is .55floz/1000.

All of that to say: you're probably well covered for the next 3-5 months, don't exceed .70 (or .55) floz per thousand this year. So you can apply either .70-.36= .34 floz/k or .55-.36= .19 floz/k if you have mostly fine fescue.

I would recommend just using the Barricade 4L liquid as it would probably be a not fun time to convert the Prodiamine WDG into the above calculations. You'd need to know the percentage/concentration of prodiamine in both AND convert between dry oz and floz.

Last but not least, the most disappointing thing is the fertilizer app. I hope it stays cold enough for long enough to render that ineffective. You probably don't need to push growth till Memorial Day or Just a couple weeks before, depending on your goals.

https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/when_should_i_fertilize_my_lawn_during_spring

Hope this helps! Someone delete this if the math is wrong &#128556;&#128556;&#128556;


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

As long as the ground isn't frozen, the prodiamine they sprayed will work just fine. Earlier is better, up to a point.

I would just check it against the rate you were planning to apply*. If it's equal, great. If it's less, treat it as the first part of a split app, and apply the balance at a future time. If it's more (and you were planning an overseed), you're screwed (no, not really, there are ways around it).

*There will be some math involved (conversion to lbs of active ingredient per 1,000 square feet) involved if you were planning a granular app. As the previous reply says, there's also similar math involved in converting from dry flowable to liquid. It can be done.

Most likely you benefit by saving the labor. I would inform them that you thought you had already discontinued the service. We've heard of this happening before, unfortunately.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

isn't the soil temp supposed to be a certain level for some amount of days before applying prodiamine?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

john5246 said:


> isn't the soil temp supposed to be a certain level for some amount of days before applying prodiamine?


Pretty sure as long as water and chemicals can penetrate readily (i.e not frozen) it's ok. I've never seen cold temp restrictions listed on labels, published in articles, etc. I've used pre-M in December before because I was paranoid about a Poa annua infestation coming back. Same thing holds for fertilizer...you need to make sure the ground is not frozen and will not freeze in the near future.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

jeffjunstrom said:


> Moved into a planned community last January, thought our one year complimentary Trugreen service was over by now. Came home today to find this. What is the effect at this temp? What are my options? My plan was to hit the lawn with prodiamine for a full 6 month app in about six weeks, so this feels super early to me.


The amazing thing about this ticket from Truegreen is it does not say "water in with .5 to 1 inch of water." If it was me I would water in if rain is not in the forecast within the next 5-7 days. If this is your last Truegreen app I would go with your full app in six weeks as well. You may need to call that number and cancel your service as well. The next app may come with a bill!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I guess they're assuming it will rain or snow within a week. Nobody waters lawns this time of year up here, so printing those instructions might not do too much good.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Trugreen probably timed it with the rain/snow that is working its way east. Yuck! If you haven't called them to cancel the service yet, I would make sure you do ASAP. There was probably an automatic renewal clause in last year's contract, unless you actively cancel.


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## jeffjunstrom (Aug 12, 2019)

I guess I'll just adjust the prodiamine plans into a split app as noted above. The good news is that it was relatively warm and slightly raining when they applied the products (as well as the days after), so it should have been sufficiently watered in. The bad news is we got snow this morning, so does a subsequent freezing of the surface affect anything, if the products have been watered in for a couple of days?

As for the liquid fert, I'm not sure how to translate those numbers. I'm sure I could research it, but does anyone have a resource on calculating liquid fert into amount used as if it were granular? Then I can adjust my fert program, as well.

Definitely going to call Trugreen and cancel ASAP. What a bummer.


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## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

jeffjunstrom said:


> As for the liquid fert, I'm not sure how to translate those numbers. I'm sure I could research it, but does anyone have a resource on calculating liquid fert into amount used as if it were granular? Then I can adjust my fert program, as well.


I think you'd need to know how much a gallon of their liquid fert weighs in order to determine the lbs of N that they applied. It doesn't look like that receipt has that info.


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

I would just ignore the fertilizer app. With the amount applied and the current temps I would guess that not a ton of N is bioavailable / being used by your grass. Even if all of it was used, I would recommend holding off on your next fert app until late spring (Easter at the earliest, Memorial Day at the latest) in which case you wouldn't have to worry about this Tru-Green fert app affecting your fert app.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

jeffjunstrom said:


> The bad news is we got snow this morning, so does a subsequent freezing of the surface affect anything, if the products have been watered in for a couple of days?
> 
> Definitely going to call Trugreen and cancel ASAP. What a bummer.


Freezing will not hurt the app. We do it all the time in the fall. We put app down and water it in then it freezes. No problem.


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## McDiddles (Feb 24, 2020)

jeffjunstrom said:


> I guess I'll just adjust the prodiamine plans into a split app as noted above. The good news is that it was relatively warm and slightly raining when they applied the products (as well as the days after), so it should have been sufficiently watered in. The bad news is we got snow this morning, so does a subsequent freezing of the surface affect anything, if the products have been watered in for a couple of days?
> 
> As for the liquid fert, I'm not sure how to translate those numbers. I'm sure I could research it, but does anyone have a resource on calculating liquid fert into amount used as if it were granular? Then I can adjust my fert program, as well.
> 
> Definitely going to call Trugreen and cancel ASAP. What a bummer.


@CrackedCornCrack rates appear correct. Wouldn't be too worried about the frozen soil, temps, or snow after, with prodiamine. I browsed the label quickly and didn't see any temp restriction on temperature. Not sure I've ever seen temp restrictions on pre-em herbicides. The fert is a different story. You'd need to know their mix rate to figure that out. Getting that would probably equate to wasting a lot of time on the phone. I wouldn't worry too much about adjusting your fert plan. If you are not planning on pushing anything until late spring, whatever they put down will be long gone.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

McDiddles said:


> The fert is a different story. You'd need to know their mix rate to figure that out. Getting that would probably equate to wasting a lot of time on the phone. I wouldn't worry too much about adjusting your fert plan. If you are not planning on pushing anything until late spring, whatever they put down will be long gone.


It appears to be 0.4492 gallon per thousand. It's most likely a liquid fert using urea-Triazone, so that is probably the calibrated amount of liquid fert going down. Truegreen is well known for that. There is a second number listed, which appears to be the total fert applied for 10K (not counting carrier). They use low carrier volume, so it seems to add up.

Someone can do the math. **If** it works out to around 0.65 lb N/M or less, it's probably safe to assume that was the actual fert rate (approx) going down on the lawn per thousand square feet. All that fertilizer is going to probably do, is help promote green-up without causing topgrowth. Much like a late Winterizer, but in late Winter instead of late Fall. Remember, the roots are active right now.

It's a new lawn...it can definitely use multiple fertilizer apps.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Green said:


> All that fertilizer is going to probably do, is help promote green-up without causing topgrowth. Much like a late Winterizer, but in late Winter instead of late Fall. Remember, the roots are active right now.


Can you explain the source of this info? No topgrowth and active roots right now?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > All that fertilizer is going to probably do, is help promote green-up without causing topgrowth. Much like a late Winterizer, but in late Winter instead of late Fall. Remember, the roots are active right now.
> ...


Yeah, I've seen it claimed before (e.g. even in Kreuser's material) that low rate N while the grass is breaking dormancy in Spring can enhance greenup without pushing it into overdrive.

*"Don't fertilize turf that isn't actively growing. An exception would be low rates of nitrate-based fertilizers in spring to promote green up (i.e. sports turf). The nitrate in the fertilizer helps stimulate the turf to resume normal growth following winter."* -https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/12-30_N_Timing.pdf

It makes sense, too, looking at the famous chart showing which parts of the plant tend to be active at what temperature ranges. If the soil temps are optimal for roots (say, 33-50F) and too low for much topgrowth, then mostly root growth is what you'd expect to get, Nitrogen app or not. You're likely not going to force tons topgrowth with a low N rate when temps are too cold for a lot of topgrowth to begin with. Of course, that may not hold if a high N rate was applied and the temps concurrently warm up, kicking the topgrowth into overdrive.

Granted, none of us are probably using Nitrate-based fertilizers. But even if we are not, there will be some action converting ammonium or even urea to Nitrate as the soils warm, so would it really be far-fetched to think that 0.25 lb/M or less from urea could not produce a similar effect, just slower? If the soils are technically warm enough in December to catalyze conversion of applied ammonium and even urea to Nitrate, why would they not also be able to do so this time of year (late Winter/early Spring) when the soil temps are the same?

There was another article, too (likely by him or Soldat), talking about how earlier Spring fertilization (again, at low rates of quickly available N) benefits shaded areas. I can't find it right now.

Also, many of our Southern transition zone members (Tennessee, Carolinas, North Georgia etc.) use fairly moderate (not even low) amounts of N to start the season off (Feb/March), because they don't practice late Spring fertilization in their climate. And many of them are actually applying that N once 55F is reached and topgrowth is already occurring optimally. If they were just depleting all the stored carbs and little else by doing so, their grass would be weak in the Summer, especially in their climates.

I am actually planning to do a late Winter/early Spring low-rate N app (using AMS or urea) on one of my no-Nitrogen tests plots in the Winterization experiment. I want to see if it's really true that the late Winter/early Spring N can give the grass a greenup boost without pushing topgrowth, as claimed. It would also be good to see more study on on the topic. Maybe someone will do a trial with labeled N in various types and amounts, like they did with Fall fertilization, to see where it's going in the plant/soil, and how much is optimal at this time of year to boost greenup but not topgrowth.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The article from Bill does not indicate that there will be no topgrowth. It also doesn't say the roots are active. It does say some nitrogen at green up(in April/may for our weather) will speed it up. It is very clear not to fertilize when it is dormant.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> The article from Bill does not indicate that there will be no topgrowth. It also doesn't say the roots are active.


That's true. But there are other articles that speak feeding when roots are active in early Spring. One of the more extreme ones is from VA Tech:

*"From a practical standpoint, a total nitrogen (N) application rate of 0.5 to 1 lb N/1000 sq ft during the late winter to mid-spring months can benefit root development and enhance spring greening. The key to success is in keeping away from the "if a little is good, more is better" philosophy." - https://ext.vt.edu/lawn-garden/turfandgardentips/tips/spring_fertility.html*

Yes, it kind of goes against conventional advice that early Spring N just depletes stored carbs by increasing topgrowth and nothing more. And yes, 0.5-1 lb seems excessive in early Spring (maybe they're assuming a lot of that is slow release; I don't know for sure), but it's the timing they mentioned that I want to call the attention to. This was just one of various articles I can't find right now that mention correctly timed early Spring apps as a supplement to where you left off in the Fall. Does it work? I don't know. That's why I want to fry it. The other point is, I'm not just pulling this idea out of nowhere; it has been talked about in the past. Do I buy it? Not totally.


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## SumBeach35 (Jul 11, 2019)

Didnt see it mentioned so far but, id call trugreen and make sure they arent coming back.


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## jeffjunstrom (Aug 12, 2019)

1) Called TruGreen and got that program cancelled.
2) I'm going to operate under the assumption that the fert they put down has done/will do negligible work for the lawn, and I won't adjust my fert schedule for the year.
3) Based on my math, they put down a 4 month coverage amount on February 25. Should I apply the next app in June, or is there some reason not to put down pre-m in summer? I want to be sure I get full season coverage, and I certainly don't want to exceed the 0.55oz/K limit, so I'm not sure what to do...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

If that app covered you until late June (and I'm not verifying the math but assuming it's right), then yes, you'll want to put down more in June. But....

-You'll want to do it in early June to prevent gaps based on that math.

-Make sure the amount you apply plus what is still left covers you for enough weeks until overseeding time, but not beyond (if you plan to seed or think you might need to in the late Summer). Other than this, there is no reason not to apply pre-M in Summer.

As far as the fertilizer, it will likely do something. But chances are it'll be more than worn off by the time you were originally planning your first app (e.g. late April).


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## jeffjunstrom (Aug 12, 2019)

Last question - can I still use my Sun Joe scarifier/verticutter if pre-m is down, or will that break the barrier that was established? If I can still use it, which attachment is better for the spring cleanup?


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## alt-brian (Sep 14, 2018)

john5246 said:


> isn't the soil temp supposed to be a certain level for some amount of days before applying prodiamine?


Think of it this way, the moment you apply the prodiamine, it starts to break down. The effective potency will last for several months, depending on rainfall and amount applied. The whole point of waiting to apply until the soil temp reaches a certain point is have the pre emergent be effective when the seeds germinate. If you apply 4 weeks before the conditions are right for seeds to germinate, that is 4 weeks of potency that has been wasted doing nothing.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Green said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > The article from Bill does not indicate that there will be no topgrowth. It also doesn't say the roots are active.
> ...


Hmmmm the prodiamine product I always buy at my local farm store also contains 14-0-7 blend so at the recommended rate it puts down about .55 LBs of N per 1k. I apply this product every March. I get a lot of people say early N is bad but every farm or lawn store around here has N in their pre-emergent products. So unless I start spraying prodiamine there no way I'm going to avoid this.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> Hmmmm the prodiamine product I always buy at my local farm store also contains 14-0-7 blend so at the recommended rate it puts down about .55 LBs of N per 1k. I apply this product every March. I get a lot of people say early N is bad but every farm or lawn store around here has N in their pre-emergent products. So unless I start spraying prodiamine there no way I'm going to avoid this.


And what have your results from it been like, qualitatively? Also, is it applied right before/during, or immediately after greenup?


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@ksturfguy , yeah spray is just about the only way to apply prodiamine without also fertilizing. If you think about it from a results standpoint tru green and retail focused lawn product manufacturers are selling a result. In the spring it's an early green up, with a side effect of weed prevention.

Side note: you can buy diopthyr and pendimethalin with no fertilizer.

For the lay person buying a product that visibly does 'nothing' isn't a great sales pitch. (I mean like if a lawn company charges you 60 bucks to spray in Feb and the only result is no weeds in June the average person is going to be wondering what they paid for from feb-May).

Finally, for the average lawn, early fertilization isn't a HUGE deal. It matters more for high performance turf (athletic fields and golf courses)and for southern transition zone cool season lawns that need all the strategic carbohydrate reserves they can get come August.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

CrackedCornCrack said:


> Finally, for the average lawn, early fertilization isn't a HUGE deal. It matters more for high performance turf (athletic fields and golf courses)and for southern transition zone cool season lawns that need all the strategic carbohydrate reserves they can get come August.


Can you go into a bit more detail about what you mean above? As in, do you feel the early fertilization helps or hurts the carb storage/Summer performance?


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@Green Yeah I just reread it, sorry for the confusion.

I believe most studies show early fertilization reduces the plant's performance in summer. I also believe it doesn't matter for the average lawn in average conditions.

I think it's most important to NOT fertilize too early if you're putting your turf through 'a lot' of stress like the aforementioned examples.(I don't know how to quantify 'a lot' as it's relative to your turf and location.)


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

On page 20 of this informative document they mention that spring fertilization is correlated with less overall turf health in the summer.... and also that it's the second best option for fertilization (the first best being late summer- early fall).

https://extension.psu.edu/downloadable/download/sample/sample_id/2485/


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Green said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmmm the prodiamine product I always buy at my local farm store also contains 14-0-7 blend so at the recommended rate it puts down about .55 LBs of N per 1k. I apply this product every March. I get a lot of people say early N is bad but every farm or lawn store around here has N in their pre-emergent products. So unless I start spraying prodiamine there no way I'm going to avoid this.
> ...


I usually apply during early stages of green up. I'm sure it helps speed up the process and I havent noticed a huge increase in top growth or anything.

I've considered not even apply pre-em this year but probably still will. I'm going to check with 1 more farm store in the area to see if they sell any pre-em without N. I know I can buy some online but it a lot more expensive. If I go that route would probably just take the next step and learn how to mix it and spray it properly.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @ksturfguy , yeah spray is just about the only way to apply prodiamine without also fertilizing. If you think about it from a results standpoint tru green and retail focused lawn product manufacturers are selling a result. In the spring it's an early green up, with a side effect of weed prevention.
> 
> Side note: you can buy diopthyr and pendimethalin with no fertilizer.
> 
> ...


Yeah all that makes sense. Maybe this year I will skip the N in March and see if I notice any improvements come summer time.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@ksturfguy, I think the lack of increased top growth is telling. Most likely the amount of N is too low (and maybe too early) to have to worry about causing that. That is my theory, and your evidence seems to support the idea.

Your results agree with VA Tech.

How much N goes down and how much is fast release?


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@ksturfguy ,

Lowe's sells a spectracide herbicide product with Dithiopyr (Dimension) in it. No fertilizer, and by all accounts pretty good pre em control.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Spectracide-Weed-Stop-For-Lawns-10-lb-Crabgrass-Control/3103667

Home Depot sells Lesco 0-0-7 with Pendimethalin... but there are cons to using it, such as it stains things yellow and it can be tough on grass roots.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/LESCO-50-lb-Crabgrass-Control-0-0-7-052388/100121942

At the end of the day, unless your lawn is just destroyed by the heat every year, I wouldn't worry about putting down light a Nitrogen application with the pre emergent.


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