# Thought on this program



## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

Went to the local john deere landscapes and they had every product I would need for next year. They have prodiamine and a granular product with pre-emergent. Looking for feedback.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

What exactly are you asking? I see no need for all those products. It's far more cost effective to spray herbicides than it is to spread them in a granular product.

Pick a proven Pre-M
Prodiamine 
Dithiopyr
Oxadiazon
Indaziflam


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

For post emergent I personally use Trifloxysulfuron-sodium(Monument 75WG) or MSMA or sulfentrazone(Dismiss) all depending on what I'm targeting


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

95mmrenegade said:


> Went to the local john deere landscapes and they had every product I would need for next year. They have prodiamine and a granular product with pre-emergent. Looking for feedback.


I would not recommend their plan.

Out of curiosity did they price that plan for you?


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

I don't think it is a terrible program. I would probably use it more of a "suggestion" rather than a plan. You can supplement some of these products with a more cheaper generic version than offered by site one, yet still follow the same cadence. I like the fact that it is comprehensive and includes the insecticide, fungicide, and aeration schedules.

But, if it works for you, I say go for it.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

I went in looking for pricing on the bermuda triangle, prodiamine, sedgehammer, tnex pgr and celicus wg. The pricing was surprisingly the same as online.

The guy said the granular with dimension o prodiamine was easier to apply and didnt need a spreader.

Have a spreader, 1 gallon pump sprayer goig to buy a 20v chapin and make a 40' sprayer.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

50# lesco spreader was 250 which i thought was cheaper than online.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

95mmrenegade said:


> and make a 40' sprayer.


  That's a huge sprayer



95mmrenegade said:


> 50# lesco spreader was 250 which i thought was cheaper than online.


That actually is a really good price. Make sure it's the model you want, and check out Lesco's website and compare models. If I took the Lesco for a spin before I got my Earthways spreader, I would have gone with the Lesco hands down.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

40" lol


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

The plan just seemed to prescribe things that may really be "as needed" type of applications.

Use a Bermuda maintenance calendar from Auburn, UGA, Clemson, etc.

Most are going to suggest a pre emergent in February or March for summer annuals like crabgrass. Another application of pre-emergent in the fall for winter annuals, such as poa annua.

Most suggest avoiding any post emergents during spring green up. Apply between 0.5 and 1 pound of nitrogen per 1,000 sqft per month.

Use fungicide and insecticide as needed.

Get a soil test every few years to make sure pH is good.

Use Celsius to control almost everything else in terms of weeds. If it's a sedge, certainty or monument. If that doesn't control it, glyphosate.

In my opinion, no need for weed and feed products.

If you want to do cheap broad cast applications, 2,4-D with a hose end sprayer when it isn't hot will go along way towards controlling broad leaf weeds.


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## kur1j (Jul 2, 2017)

high leverage said:


> For post emergent I personally use Trifloxysulfuron-sodium(Monument 75WG) or MSMA or sulfentrazone(Dismiss) all depending on what I'm targeting


What is the reason you use monument over celsius and certainty for your post emergence? I'm aboit to go buy all of my post/pre emergence.

Prodiamine 
Princep 4L (cross coverage preemergent)
Celsius 
certainty 
Quinclorac/Monument/Katana (to kill some St Aug in my bermuda)

Any other suggestions? For longevity and effectiveness which form of the material would you get if available? Do you know if the Princep comes in any other form besides liquid? The smallest amount of this stuff is so damn much for my yard and I don't want it to go bad before I can use half of it.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If you are getting monument or katana, you don't need certainity.

All three will kill sedges.

Katana and monument are better on poa annua than certainty.

You may be able to get a powdered version of simazine.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> If you are getting monument or katana, you don't need certainity.
> 
> All three will kill sedges.
> 
> ...


what program are you using and what chemicals do you have? I have bermuda also in alabama


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> If you are getting monument or katana, you don't need certainity.
> 
> All three will kill sedges.
> 
> ...


In the south Simazine 90 DF is available. Application rate on that is 1 lb of the DF per acre.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > If you are getting monument or katana, you don't need certainity.
> ...


Pre-em
Fall - Prodiamine, Simazine, Monument
Spring - Prodiamine

Post-em
Celsius, Certainty, brush on glyphosate

In terms of other chemicals on-hand, these are for unique situations.
Image (imazaquin) which I used for wild onion and wild garlic.
Fusilade (fluazifop) for controlling grass in flower bed and renovation
Triclopyr for some nandinas that wouldn't die and for renovation
Tenactiy for renovation and will be used when I have PGR
Crossbow (2,4-d and triclopyr) bunch of english ivy when I bought the house

I think minimum you're looking at prodiamine pre-em, and then a post-em of Celsius for hot weather, maybe a 3-way or something like Speedzone for the rest of the season, and then something to control sedges, whether that's Certanity, Monument, Katanta, Sedgehammer, etc.

It all depends on your expectations, budget, and potentially your outlook on weed resistance. I wanted to use multiple MOAs for poa control, to help avoid contributing to resistance, hence three products that all work differently to kill poa.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Stro3579 said:
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> > Movingshrub said:
> ...


Expectations are really high. I have Turf Dr doing my yard at this time. but plan on canceling them this month. I purchased

Prodiame (Pre Emergent)
Dithiopyr 40 WSB (Pre emergent)
Monumentum FX2 ( would this be consider a post emergent)
2-4-D ( Post emergent ?)
MSMA (dallas grass and crabgrass killer)
Glyphosate (round up)

Let me know if I am correct on the above.

I just got the prodiame and dithiopyr because I plan to treat in sept. I plan to use the prodiame in sept, Dithiopyr in Nov. Then spring go back to Prodiame. Is this the correct process?

so I will need to get Simazine and Monument for sept application? 
whatever weeds the pre emergents dont prevent. Use Celsius and Certainty?
I also get onions in my yard every year. Is the Image (imazaquin) the only thing that will take care of that?

Sorry Im all over the place. got alot of questions.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

You don't need both prodiamine and dithiopyr. They work similarly.

If you spray prodiamine, monument, and simazine, I would expect almost no weeds over winter but some are always possible. Considering how few of them I had I usually just hand pulled them. It would've been more trouble to mix up something to spray.

I'm not sure how friendly momentum is to Bermuda grass considering the triclopyr. You are correct on your pre em and post em labeling


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Most of the Three Way mixes including the newer ones involving Triclopyr and/or Fluroxypyr are not friendly to Bermuda. Speedzone Southern is actually the safest.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If you go with the prodiamine, simazine, monument app, spray it all before Halloween. Put enough prodiamine to get you through February. In February 2019, apply enough prodiamine to get you to the fall app or split it into two app; spring and summer.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> If you go with the prodiamine, simazine, monument app, spray it all before Halloween. Put enough prodiamine to get you through February. In February 2019, apply enough prodiamine to get you to the fall app or split it into two app; spring and summer.


cant seem to find Monument except for like $300 any suggestions?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > If you go with the prodiamine, simazine, monument app, spray it all before Halloween. Put enough prodiamine to get you through February. In February 2019, apply enough prodiamine to get you to the fall app or split it into two app; spring and summer.
> ...


That's the normal price. Pestrong had it for about $250 before.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I heard of and one of my vendors had Monument in 0.5 gram portions. 0.5 gram is enough to do 2000 sq ft. Do not know if that is still around or if Syngenta pulled it because too many homeowners were using it.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Stro3579 said:
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> 
> > Movingshrub said:
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is there something esle I can substitute Monument with?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Not really. Everything else is in packages to cover an acre or more and costs about the same. Another option on dormant Bermuda is Image.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

There isn't a generic. Katana, revolver, and maybe some other SU herbicides but I don't know the soil residual for the others.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Most of the others except for MSM have a short residual. I do not mention Certainty or Sedgehammer because control of grassy weeds is not their strong point. Revolver is an excellent Post Emergent. In the corn fields, it is used if carry over to another crop is going to be an issue. It is not persistent in the soil.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Stro3579 what's the size of your yard?


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> @Stro3579 what's the size of your yard?


Front yard is 8,500 sqft. Back is 13,000 sqft


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

So, approximately 1/2 an acre total.

Prodiamine is cheap.
Simazine is cheap.
Monument, not so cheap. You would be using. The rate is 10-15 grams per acre, each packet is 5 grams. You could do one packet and be at the low rate, or a 1.5 packets and be at the high rate. That would come out to $50-$75 (1 packet or 1.5 packets). Also, PM headed your way.

For the momentum, and either the prodiamine or dithiopyr (pick one), if they aren't opened, I'd try to return them.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Hey man, there's no rush to this so lets be deliberate and make sure we get a plan that suits your need.

Prodiamine and dithiopyr both work in similar ways. Both are designed to impair the rooting of anything that germinates. Dithiopyr is generally a bit more expensive. I don't think you need both. Just pick one. I *think* you can put down prodiamine at rates, so you only have to apply twice a year.

Concerning simazine, I use Princep 4L. It comes in a 2.5 gal jug, which will probably last you ten years.

Blindside isn't a replacement for Celsius. Blindside is basically a mixture of Dismiss and Manor. Dismiss isn't ideal in hot weather. The main advantage of Celsius is that it *CAN* be used in the hottest parts of the summer; in fact, the hotter the better.

Katana isn't labeled for broadcast application. Both Site One and Domyown, are trying to sell you something. I'm not. I'll send you a photo of my own chem inventory if you want to show I put my money where my mouth is on these recommendations. Katana is kind of pricey as well.

@Greendoc has been involved on this thread so maybe he chimes in as well. Also, there's the bermuda triangle recommendation which is prodiamine pre-em, Celsius for broadleaf, certainty for sedges, and brushed on glyphosate for anything still alive.

Here is my suggestion for your pre-em plan. 
Fall - Apply end of September
Prodiamine rate of 1lb per acre, which gives 5 months of control (1/2lb of prodiamine 65 WDG powder for your 1/2 acre yard)
Simazine - rate of 1 qt per acre (so, 1/2 qt for your 1/2 acre yard)
Optional monument - rate of 10 grams per acre (1ea 5 gram packet of monument for your 1/2 acre yard)

Spring - Apply between Valentines day and end of February
Prodiamine - Apply 1.5lb of per acre for 8 months of control (0.75lb of prodiamine 65 WDG powder for your 1/2 acre yard)
Optional Simazine - rate of 1 qt per acre (so, 1/2 qt for your yard)

Don't buy Blindside.
Don't buy Dismiss.
Don't buy Katana.
Take back either your prodiamine or dithiopyr; pick one, keep the other.
Take back the Momentum FX.
Buy some simazine/Princep 4L.
Considering buying some monument, but not required.
If you have a bunch of wild onions, three way, multiple times, or image.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Hey man, there's no rush to this so lets be deliberate and make sure we get a plan that suits your need.
> 
> Prodiamine and dithiopyr both work in similar ways. Both are designed to impair the rooting of anything that germinates. Dithiopyr is generally a bit more expensive. I don't think you need both. Just pick one. I *think* you can put down prodiamine at rates, so you only have to apply twice a year.
> 
> ...


Thanks!! 
I will just get the monument. By the way what is 3 way? I see it mentioned alot. Is that a 2-4-d?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Traditional three way is typically a mixture, of 2,4-D, Dicamba, and Mecoprop (MCPP) or MCPA.

There are a BUNCH of different three-way mixtures out there.
Some include triclopyr, such as your momentum FX.
Some use 2,4-DP, some don't use 2,4-D or 2,4-DP at all.
Some include carfentrazone, like Speedzone Southern
Some include quinclorac, like certain blends of Ortho Weed B Gon
And so forth.
There are also amine and ester versions.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If you're looking at it from a budgetary angle - this is how I'd purchase

1. Prodiamine $60 + Celsius $100
2. Generic glyphosate $20
3. Simazine/Princep $75
4. Image (Get the one with imazaquin, not atrazine) $25 - You can also use this for sedges. 
5. Monument $230


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Oh yeah, big assumption here - you *are* spraying your application, right, or were you planning to use a granular fertilizer spreader?


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Oh yeah, big assumption here - you *are* spraying your application, right, or were you planning to use a granular fertilizer spreader?


yes spraying. 
So the speedzone southern will be safer on the bermuda than the Monumentum fx2. correct?
So the only thing I will need asap will be
Simazine/Princep $75
Monument $230
I already have the prodiame.

The other products I will need later because they are post emergents?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Monumentum fx2 has triclopyr which can damage bermuda.

If you don't want to do Celsius, a basic three-way or speedzone will work, but, generally, they can't be used above 85F, meaning 85F for the next day or so, versus spaying at 9pm when it's 84F in the middle of the summer in Alabama.

1. Prodiamine (pre-em) $60 + Celsius (post-em) $100
2. Generic glyphosate (post-em) $20
3. Simazine/Princep (pre/post-em)$75 Lingers in the soil as pre-em but also can be used as post-em depending on the plant.
4. Image (Get the one with imazaquin, not atrazine) (Post-em) $25 - You can also use this for sedges. 
5. Monument $230 (pre/post-em) Post-em that lingers in the soil.

Just for anyone else that reads
Barricade/Prodiamine, Princep 4L/Simazine, and Monument all have different modes of action. Poa Annua/ Annual bluegrass gives off a bunch of seeds, so anything that survives can lead to herbicide resistance. As a result, by using herbicides using different MOAs, if the poa is resistant to one type or is only maimed, hopefully the other MOA will kill it off.

For anyone who really wants to nerd out on poa - http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/Pages/PoaDay.aspx


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

gotcha!! thanks again


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Monumentum fx2 has triclopyr which can damage bermuda.
> 
> If you don't want to do Celsius, a basic three-way or speedzone will work, but, generally, they can't be used above 85F, meaning 85F for the next day or so, versus spaying at 9pm when it's 84F in the middle of the summer in Alabama.
> 
> ...


What would be the best surfactant for the list above? I've just used baby shampoo in the past but I think it's time to up my game. Although I'll miss the smell. Makes me miss when my boys were tiny.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I am not going to commit to "best." There are plenty that will fit the bill.

If you're talking the prodiamine, simazine, monument route - the plan calls for non-ionic surfactant (NIS).

https://www.greencastonline.com/greentrust365/golf_pdfs/2018-poa-annua-assurance-program-non-overseeded-fairways.pdf

@Colonel K0rn Here is the timeline for the plan. Couldn't recall if you found the 2018 syngenta document or one from a previous year.

This is the plan I'm using. I expected to use a lot of NIS so I went to my local co-op and bought a gallon of the only NIS they had. It wasn't anything super fancy. I think it was around $20.

If you're talking surfactants for other targets aside from poa annua, https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3799


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Hey man, there's no rush to this so lets be deliberate and make sure we get a plan that suits your need.
> 
> Prodiamine and dithiopyr both work in similar ways. Both are designed to impair the rooting of anything that germinates. Dithiopyr is generally a bit more expensive. I don't think you need both. Just pick one. I *think* you can put down prodiamine at rates, so you only have to apply twice a year.
> 
> ...


What is the math for the Prodiame app? I know you provided the amounts. I just want to learn how to calculate it. My sprayer only does 12 gallons at a time. So I will have to do 2 mixed. Once for front 8,500 sq ft. And once for back 13,000 sq ft


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > Hey man, there's no rush to this so lets be deliberate and make sure we get a plan that suits your need.
> ...


Best application that you can use to keep track of all of the products that you put down in your yard can be as basic as a spreadsheet, or using the GreenKeeper App online. You can enter in the products, your yard dimensions (I have the front and back yard of Colonel K0rn's Highlands set up that way) and the tools that you spread/spray with. With products like Prodiamine, you enter the rate you desire to spray/spread at, and the program will do the calculations for you on how much product to add in order to spray/spread at your desired rate.

It really takes out the guesswork, and helps you avoid accidents from flawed math. And I like that I can sit at my PC, figure out what I'm going to mix in the tank, print off what I'm going to need, and just mix it in the shed.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

@colonelk0rn does this app cost? The link you posted had a error message when I clicked it.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> @colonelk0rn does this app cost? The link you posted had a error message when I clicked it.


It is free. I fixed his link. :thumbup:


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Ware said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> > @colonelk0rn does this app cost? The link you posted had a error message when I clicked it.
> ...


Thx


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

How much monument is needed for 8k sq feet? Also how much is needed for 13k sq feet?
Same for princep


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> How much monument is needed for 8k sq feet? Also how much is needed for 13k sq feet?
> Same for princep


Monument is 10-15 grams per acre. 
Let's assume 10 gram dosage.
One acre is 43,560 sqft.
10grams/43.560k=0.22956 grams per 1,000 sqft, so about 1.84 grams for 8k sqft at the lower application rate.

Princep 4L is 1qt(32oz) per acre.
32/43.560=0.7346 fluid ounces per 1k.
I think the label says 0.75 fl oz per 1k.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> > How much monument is needed for 8k sq feet? Also how much is needed for 13k sq feet?
> ...


Thanks a million!!


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## lambert (Sep 12, 2018)

I'm surprised they have T-Storm listed as the "best" fungicide, behind Headway. Probably because T-Storm is their Lesco branded Cleary's.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > If you go with the prodiamine, simazine, monument app, spray it all before Halloween. Put enough prodiamine to get you through February. In February 2019, apply enough prodiamine to get you to the fall app or split it into two app; spring and summer.
> ...


Buy, Celsius, Certainty, and Dismiss that should be all you need to take care of every weed minus dallisgrass.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

CenlaLowell said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> > Movingshrub said:
> ...


The plan discussed above is to target poa annua and other winter annuals.

The argument for using monument is that it has a soil residual, and the idea behind using prodiamine, simazine, and monument is that you have multiple modes of action, which is designed to reduce herbicide resistance. Poa annua seeds like crazy and can develop resistant populations.

What application does dismiss serve that isn't covered by certainty and celsius? Goosegrass? Violets?


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