# Falcon IV Disappointment



## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

After researching for a good established heat- and drought-tolerant fescue, I overseeded my 26,000 sf lawn this fall with Falcon IV in mid-September. My seed supplier - Trinity Turf in Richmond, VA - said that Falcon V was not available.
The Falcon IV was very slow to germinate - up to two weeks and in some areas of the lawn, no germination at all. What did come up looked pretty good at first, and I was hopeful that it would do well. It was not as robust as some fescues I'd seeded with in the past.
Now, in early November, most of the seedlings are no longer visible. The is some visible seedlings in a few bare areas, but most of the bare areas where there was seedlings are now bare again and I don't see any at all now.
I am really disappointed because I had hoped the Falcon IV would fill in my perennial bare area.
Any comments about Falcon IV?


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Yeah I've used Falcon 4 a couple times and had mixed results. It's an older variety that scored pretty high several years back in the transition zone NTEP. There are some newer tall fescues that perform much better in the heat. I think one problem why Falcon 4 might not be real great is because it's an older variety some suppliers have had it on the shelves for years and it's probably not as fresh. I have a couple farm and feed stores that I know have had it laying around for over two years.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

I had near 100% success with my reno this season using the below TTTF mix from Mountain View seeds. I would check them out. I don't have irrigation and wasn't even able to water my entire lawn. Still came in great. I'm near Philly. Similar climate though you are a couple of degrees warmer on average.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

The batch of Falcon IV that I got was fresh - tested this year.
The problem was getting the stuff going. I need something that germinates and establishes fast. We have such a small window for planting (around Sept. 1) and then we have the pressure of leaves falling soon after. The stress of the leaves on the bare ground smothering the seedings - it seems like an impossible task every year.
We've had a ton of rain this year which has not helped.
Is there anything I can plant this late that will at least provide ground cover so I don't have muddy sections of the yard?
I've used Titan Rx in the past which seemed to germinate quickly and developed into robust/thick seedlings pretty fast.


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## vipersbyms (Aug 22, 2020)

Falcon IV is one of the cultivars in the GCI Turf TTTF, which is kind of popular. I did a heavy overseed with GCI TTTF on Labor Day and got germination over a 4 to 7 day period.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

vipersbyms said:


> Falcon IV is one of the cultivars in the GCI Turf TTTF, which is kind of popular. I did a heavy overseed with GCI TTTF on Labor Day and got germination over a 4 to 7 day period.


I like GCI turfs TTTF. Thor and Blacktail are good varieties and I have gotten very dark green grass from those. I still think Falcon 4 is becoming more of an outdated mid tier variety and am wondering if Pete will upgrade his TTTF by replacing Falcon 4.


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## elgrow (Mar 30, 2020)

Lumalux said:


> The batch of Falcon IV that I got was fresh - tested this year.
> The problem was getting the stuff going. I need something that germinates and establishes fast. We have such a small window for planting (around Sept. 1) and then we have the pressure of leaves falling soon after. The stress of the leaves on the bare ground smothering the seedings - it seems like an impossible task every year.
> We've had a ton of rain this year which has not helped.
> Is there anything I can plant this late that will at least provide ground cover so I don't have muddy sections of the yard?
> I've used Titan Rx in the past which seemed to germinate quickly and developed into robust/thick seedlings pretty fast.


Do you have any pictures of your lawn?

I seeded with GCI TTTF(Falcon IV, Thor, Blacktail) in Richmond, VA on sept 13 and then a later follow up with TitanRX after some spots washed out from my reno. So I am in similar shoes to you when it comes to seed time/progress of your lawn and I am curious if you don't have another problem going on.

Leaf pressure hasn't really been that bad this fall so far and you would be at around 60 days post germ so things shouldn't be too bad on that front. While leaves haven't been bad for me, I have had very heavy acorn coverage from my oaks which have been more of a problem, but grass just continues to come up around them.

Also I have had several neighbors overseed in early and late Oct and have had successful renovations or what appear to be early success since one is about 10 days in.

Honestly I am just curious to see what your's looks like and what steps you took to see what might have happened. We have had a ton of rain and depending on where you are in the metro area you could have had more washouts.


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## elgrow (Mar 30, 2020)

Also here is a before and after from 9/13 to 10/30 to give you an idea of what mine has looked like.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

Throwing my hat in the ring for overseeding with GCI TTTF this fall (september 1st I believe). I have had great luck with germination, even in areas with little/no irrigation. I did test germination in a cup and I did see three distinct seedlings germinate in about 3-5 days. There was one seedling that had a thicker blade, purpleish base, and a more "blue" leaf that seemed to lag behind in germination. Maybe that was the Falcon IV?

I think the biggest risk for me has been for seed that germinates without irrigation, grows, but then gets hit by heat/drought and dies off because I didn't have water to support it. I don't know your exact situation but it sounds like this might be part of your problem based on your comments about it germinating, and then disappearing. Germinating without irrigation is one thing but in mid-september we are still seeing weather hot enough to kill off baby grass unless it gets a decent amount of water. I think this is part of the thinking in this area to overseed TTTF in october.


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

Overseeded with GCI Coolblue and nlueheat in my backyard and it came in great.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Surprised to hear of failure with Falcon IV. This is one of the rhizomatous tall fescues in Barrenbrug RTF WaterSaver. I have seeded this a few times and always had successful germination within 7-10 days. Falcon IV is about 30% of the blend.

My guess is something else is wrong here. Possibly bad storage conditions before you got the seed? Or as @Pezking7p said, if seed germinates and there isn't enough moisture, it dies.


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## AWlandis (May 13, 2019)

I used Trinity Turfs confidence tttf which is 50% Falcon IV. Had great results in central Va. I have also used GCI tttf with the Falcon IV.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Its not the seed, its your process. Define what you did.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

I think it's a combination of two things: 
(1) I skipped aeration this year and simply overseeded. I did prepare the turf and bare areas by dethatching and scratching up the bare spots. The seed did come up eventually and it looked very promising at first but then it just petered out. The areas that were thick with new seedings are now devoid of any new growth. I can barely find any new seedlings. And this was after spot re-seeding multiple times in areas that were not filling in.
(2) We have had a ton of rain since September 1. I am wondering if it simply got drowned. The seedlings were never in danger of drying out.

I have used TitanRx in the past and it established very quickly with little effort and showed dense, wide bladed growth the following March.

I am just really disappointed because now I'll have to wait ANOTHER year before I can get any improvement.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

At this point I am ready to put down anything that will grow. I don't care about turf quality I am so frustrated.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

Here's a photo of what a lot of the lawn looks like. Granted, it has been pouring down rain for the past 24 hours and I last picked up leaves a few days ago. All the bare areas had lots of new seedlings in mid-October. Now the lawn is back to what it looked like before I re-seeded around mid-September.
How do you guys actually get new grass to take hold? I've been trying for 7 years.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

dport said:


> I had near 100% success with my reno this season using the below TTTF mix from Mountain View seeds. I would check them out. I don't have irrigation and wasn't even able to water my entire lawn. Still came in great. I'm near Philly. Similar climate though you are a couple of degrees warmer on average.


Your lawn is full sun so you could probably grow anything. Much of our lawn gets mixed sun/shade and when I am not battling acorns I am battling falling leaves.


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## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

Lumalux said:


> Here's a photo of what a lot of the lawn looks like. Granted, it has been pouring down rain for the past 24 hours and I last picked up leaves a few days ago. All the bare areas had lots of new seedlings in mid-October. Now the lawn is back to what it looked like before I re-seeded around mid-September.
> How do you guys actually get new grass to take hold? I've been trying for 7 years.


You need to keep those leaves off it for extended periods of time for one. Ive got some shady spots, like no direct sunlight after September 1st shady and they are doing fairly well with GCI Cool Blue (Falcon 4 is in the mix). I was raking leaves off my new grass every day for weeks while they were still falling.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

I have been diligent about blowing the leaves off the new areas with a leaf blower every few days and sucking up the rest with a leaf vac and not touching the turf with a rake and it still failed. It has rained the past two days so what you see has been out there during the rain.
Maybe I am wrong and by some miracle next spring I'll see new growth but I don't see it now.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Lumalux said:


> I think it's a combination of two things:
> (1) I skipped aeration this year and simply overseeded. I did prepare the turf and bare areas by dethatching and scratching up the bare spots. The seed did come up eventually and it looked very promising at first but then it just petered out. The areas that were thick with new seedings are now devoid of any new growth. I can barely find any new seedlings. And this was after spot re-seeding multiple times in areas that were not filling in.
> (2) We have had a ton of rain since September 1. I am wondering if it simply got drowned. The seedlings were never in danger of drying out.
> 
> ...


Reading this is making me think a few of things:

1) When was the last time you had a soil test?

2) How deep did you scratch the soil before seeding?

3) What type of soil do you have - clay, sand, silt, loam? How is your organic matter?

The poor germination may have been due to not enough loose soil beneath for roots to anchor into. I'm thinking next year, you may want to put down a good top layer of compost down where you seed.

I doubt fallen leaves are a problem unless you let them stay for more than 2-3 days.

I have my own postmortem you may be interested in reading:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=23097


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

Thanks for the advice, Deadlawn. I read your entire post.
I have Virginia Green which handles all the treatments (I have the top Estate plan which has the most services you can get). I decided to overseed myself this year instead of letting Virginia Green do it because every summer, I lose about 1/3 of my turf. I was beginning to think it was the Kentucky Bluegrass in the mix they use which looks fantastic in the fall and early spring but never survives into June around here. So I went with pure TTTF mono mix that seemed to have good heat and drought tolerance, with fingers crossed and high hopes. I expected to get good establishment this fall and then wait and see what happens next summer, but I don't think I am going to get that far.
Virginia Green tests the soil and all reports that I know of have been good. They advise if something looks out of whack. I know they put down lime earlier this fall. They also applied for the first time a new treatment that is supposed to control the poa trivialis next spring. I wonder if this is affecting the new grass?
I apply Milorganite liberally from time to time but not on a regular basis.
The turf that is established looks great - we have the best lawn on the block - but I can't ever seem to fix the thin areas.
I have done nothing different than what Virginia Green does except aeration. Again, I saw lots of new growth about two weeks in, throughout the lawn, so I assumed I was on the path to success.
Based on Powhatan's experience, I test planted a small area of KY-31 and it was dismal as well - slow germination, very pale and thin, not robust. It's mostly matted down and very pale green and does not look healthy at all. I chose to go with the Falcon IV after seeing how poorly the KY-1 did. I thought that stuff grew anywhere.
What is going on?


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

I should add the soil in this area of Virginia has a lot of clay in it.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

@Lumalux I still say something is up with your soil. You say you have clay. Does water stand after rainfall or does it drain? If you have water that stands after it stops raining, that could be a real problem.

If you treated your poa trivialis, it's possible this could have stressed non-targeted grasses. And why did they treat it now for something that will come up next spring? Is this treatment possibly a pre-emergent?

I have noticed that some of the KY-31 I planted last year which I gave up for dead by summer appears to be coming back to life now.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

Most of the yard drains well. Our yard is on a gentle slope so water drains off instead of ponding.

I believe the poa treatment is a pre-emergent and they assured me it would not affect fall seeding. Every year seems to be worse with the poa, especially if we have a mild winter and spring comes early. Last year was a nightmare.

I think Western Mass. is much more conducive to good turf grass cultivation than the mid-Atlantic transition zone. Count yourself lucky. I would think KBG would do great there. Here in the transition zone, it's a constant battle with humidity, heat, lack of rain, too much rain.

When I visited Chicago one summer, I was struck at how nice the areas of KBG and fine fescue were doing around the city.

I would kill off all the fescue in my yard and plant Patriot Bermuda if we had more sun.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I read your post. There are a couple of glaring issues.

1) do you have irrigation? It could rain a lot one day, but if it gets dry for a few days, the young grass won't survive it. What was your irrigation schedule?

2) some company applied a herbicide to your yard. What was it? They should give you a detail description of what and how much.


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## AWlandis (May 13, 2019)

I havent seen anybody mention shade. I wonder how dense the shade is during the summer. I have a maple tree in my yard and the tttf thins out every summer but I cant stand to make the mulch ring that big so I add more seed every fall.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> I read your post. There are a couple of glaring issues.
> 
> 1) do you have irrigation? It could rain a lot one day, but if it gets dry for a few days, the young grass won't survive it. What was your irrigation schedule?
> 
> 2) some company applied a herbicide to your yard. What was it? They should give you a detail description of what and how much.


Very good points here.

New seed needs to be watered daily regardless of whether there was a deluge the previous days. If seed starts to swell and then dries out, it dies and it's a do-over.

Not to criticize, but I have to wonder why do you continue to hire a lawn service whose results are losing 1/3 of the turf? I would fire them on the spot. I'm sure you could achieve similar results on your own.

And as AWlandis implied, shade could also be an issue once grass is mature. While TTTF is tolerant of partial shade (on the sunny side of partial), it will perish in areas with less than 4 hours a day. Best to try a fine fescue blend in those areas.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Lumalux said:


> I would kill off all the fescue in my yard and plant Patriot Bermuda if we had more sun.


Have you thought about trying a warm season grass with a little more shade tolerance like centipede?


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

OK, guys. I need to re-visit my original post. My lawn is looking fantastic this spring - the best it's ever looked in 8 years. I had originally posted that I thought my fall Falcon IV overseeding was a complete failure but I may have been wrong. I have the thickest, darkest green TTTF lawn I ever recall having. All the thin areas have filled in and there is tons of new growth.
Granted, we've had absolutely phenomenal weather this spring in Richmond - cooler than average with just the right amount of rainfall.
I have not really done anything different this year other than applying Scott's MossEx a few weeks ago in some mossy, shady trouble areas. That has some iron, so that may have made a difference. I did put down some Heritage granulated fungicide about a month ago when I thought some fungus may have been developing, but I did not see any trace of fungus after the application. I have a lawn service that applies fertilizer, pre-emergent and foliar weed control 10 times a year. I always mow at 4.5 - 5 inches.
I retract my bashing of Falcon IV. If's it's responsible for these great results, I will use it again this fall.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

Lumalux said:


> OK, guys. I need to re-visit my original post. My lawn is looking fantastic this spring - the best it's ever looked in 8 years. I had originally posted that I thought my fall Falcon IV overseeding was a complete failure but I may have been wrong. I have the thickest, darkest green TTTF lawn I ever recall having. All the thin areas have filled in and there is tons of new growth.
> Granted, we've had absolutely phenomenal weather this spring in Richmond - cooler than average with just the right amount of rainfall.
> I have not really done anything different this year other than applying Scott's MossEx a few weeks ago in some mossy, shady trouble areas. That has some iron, so that may have made a difference. I did put down some Heritage granulated fungicide about a month ago when I thought some fungus may have been developing, but I did not see any trace of fungus after the application. I have a lawn service that applies fertilizer, pre-emergent and foliar weed control 10 times a year. I always mow at 4.5 - 5 inches.
> I retract my bashing of Falcon IV. If's it's responsible for these great results, I will use it again this fall.


I love it when a plan comes together...


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

Looks great! Glad it worked out for you.


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## TNguy (Nov 23, 2020)

Great looking fescue!


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

I'll have to say that is a fine fescue lawn - in quality, not species. :lol:


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Congrats it was a success. Make sure you have a good fungus plan in place start gathering the supplies


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

M32075 said:


> Congrats it was a success. Make sure you have a good fungus plan in place start gathering the supplies


Yes. The Heritage seems to have been the common thread when I have good turf. I will see how it looks around the first of May and spread either Heritage or the other common granulated fungicide (can't recall name). Luckily, we've had cool weather so far so low rick of fungus.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

Lumalux said:


> OK, guys. I need to re-visit my original post. My lawn is looking fantastic this spring - the best it's ever looked in 8 years. I had originally posted that I thought my fall Falcon IV overseeding was a complete failure but I may have been wrong. I have the thickest, darkest green TTTF lawn I ever recall having. All the thin areas have filled in and there is tons of new growth.
> Granted, we've had absolutely phenomenal weather this spring in Richmond - cooler than average with just the right amount of rainfall.
> I have not really done anything different this year other than applying Scott's MossEx a few weeks ago in some mossy, shady trouble areas. That has some iron, so that may have made a difference. I did put down some Heritage granulated fungicide about a month ago when I thought some fungus may have been developing, but I did not see any trace of fungus after the application. I have a lawn service that applies fertilizer, pre-emergent and foliar weed control 10 times a year. I always mow at 4.5 - 5 inches.
> I retract my bashing of Falcon IV. If's it's responsible for these great results, I will use it again this fall.


thats some nice turf.


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## ALPHA (Aug 25, 2021)

That looks fantastic!


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## superkaz661 (Apr 19, 2019)

Would be very interested to see an update. According to its tear sheet, Falcon IV was a top performer in its NTEP trials (2001) for mean quality. However, that picture was taken in spring, when it doesnt look like tree leaves have significantly come in, and Falcon IV seems to be a middle performer for shade in current NTEP testing (its a standard entry). Interestingly, the Falcon IV tear sheet also suggests that it is a very good shade performer, but the 2001 NTEP trial didnt include a Carbondale shade test, as do later years.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

UPDATE: Here it is early October, and I can't really tell if the Falcon IV performed exceptionally well (or better than what I had applied in years past). I have the usual thinning out that occurs in late summer. I've aerated and had my lawn guy overseed with a blue tag improved TTTF (not sure of the mix). I have been doing some spot overseeding with TitanRx, Jaguar, and Jonathan Green Shady Nooks and Black Beauty varieties. I did not have the chance this past August to aggressively de-thatch in all areas; got most of the trouble spots but would have liked to hit some more areas. I think the best chances for getting good results with overseeding is to remove all the dead stuff that sits on top of the soil and intertwines in the good turf so the new seedlings get good soil contact and have plenty of air and water to thrive. I'll try to post some pics in a few weeks to document progress.


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## Lumalux (Aug 23, 2019)

JERSEY said:


> Lumalux said:
> 
> 
> > OK, guys. I need to re-visit my original post. My lawn is looking fantastic this spring - the best it's ever looked in 8 years. I had originally posted that I thought my fall Falcon IV overseeding was a complete failure but I may have been wrong. I have the thickest, darkest green TTTF lawn I ever recall having. All the thin areas have filled in and there is tons of new growth.
> ...


Thank you very much. I was extremely pleased with how the lawn looked in the spring.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

At this point you're battling many fronts. Late in the season,leaf coverage, saturation of soil and shade. You can throw down some PRG seed it's a true throw and grow seed with super fast germination hopefully it takes


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