# Seeding with *** a waste of time?



## Bcsteve (Sep 21, 2019)

I got a couple ice cream pails of KBG seed from the place I purchased my sod from last year. Through a couple feet of snow my dog did a pretty good number on my lawn so covered the spots with topsoil and have seeded.

From reading the cool season guide I'm now realizing the *** seed is slow but am I wasting my time? Should I instead use another seed?

Thanks


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you have kbg in your lawn, feed it and it will spread. You can grab a plug from one good section and move it to the dog damage spot.


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## Bcsteve (Sep 21, 2019)

Thanks @g-man again for the help! I'm new to the concept of plugging and have been searching and seeing a lot about how to place them but not the collection. Can I just use my core sampler or is that generally a little too small?


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Too small. Take a look at the Pro Plugger on amazon its what many use.

If it helps sell it, it works great for planting gardens or bulb plants. This year i could just walk out to my garden, pull a row of plugs, shove my starter plants in and im done in half the time.

Pull plug from good area, pull plug from bad area. Turn pro plugger upside down and both plugs fall out. Shove bad plug into "good" area hole, good plug goes into the bad area your trying to fix.


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## Jacks_Designs (May 4, 2020)

I did a KBG overseed last fall. I saw grass coming thru in my bare spots in 7-10 days.
I purchased from https://unitedseeds.com


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## double_e5 (May 3, 2020)

The Pro Plugger is great. I got one this year and can't believe how easy it is to use. Anyone on the fence of getting one should do it.


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## Bcsteve (Sep 21, 2019)

Thanks guys! Pro plugger it is!


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## Matix99def (Jul 15, 2019)

@Bcsteve hey. I bought a Gardena bulb planter from Canadian tire. Works awesome for plugs. Gives a nice 2 inch plug. Only 15 bucks as well.


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## Bcsteve (Sep 21, 2019)

@Matix99def thanks! Appreciate it cause it seems even on eBay you're in it for $100. Had to head there anyways!


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## Matix99def (Jul 15, 2019)

No problem. It will be a bit slower than with the proplugger. it has a measurement on the side of it as well to control your depths. I used the 10 mark.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

I seeded KBG in some bare areas exactly three weeks ago, watering twice a day. They poked their heads two weeks after, and haven't grown after that. But temperatures have not been good for seed growth as for the first two weeks, we had nighttime temperatures in the 40s to mid 30s.


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## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

Just get a bulb planter from Lowes, there like $15. Pulls nice size plugs.


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## Bcsteve (Sep 21, 2019)

Awesome guys thanks so much!


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## DiabeticKripple (Apr 14, 2019)

My dog wrecked my lawn too. Next winter he's getting fenced off to the RV pad.

I didn't know about the Gardena plugger, I'll have to get one tomorrow as I'm heading there for a couple other small things.


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## BobRoss (Jul 3, 2019)

It seems the Pro Plugger is in high demand. I cannot find it in stock anywhere online.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

greencare said:


> I seeded KBG in some bare areas exactly three weeks ago, watering twice a day. They poked their heads two weeks after, and haven't grown after that. But temperatures have not been good for seed growth as for the first two weeks, we had nighttime temperatures in the 40s to mid 30s.


The bare area KBG seeding has been a failure. The pre-em is stopping the grass that has already sprouted from growing roots I believe. KBG is still stuck in the same sprout state after two weeks and it has been a month after seeding. Lesson learned. Pre-em is too powerful.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

KBG can pout for 2-4 weeks. Some KBG seedings don't get mowed until 60 days after seeding.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

bernstem said:


> KBG can pout for 2-4 weeks. Some KBG seedings don't get mowed until 60 days after seeding.


Oh, wow. I guess I will keep it watered. Thank you.

And I am curious, is it worth it to overseed with KBG in late March and then put pre-em down mid-late May? Will it have time to grow before that?


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Check the label, most Pre-emergents recommend waiting 60 days or two mowings, whichever is longer.


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## Utk03analyst (Jun 8, 2019)

bernstem said:


> Check the label, most Pre-emergents recommend waiting 60 days or two mowings, whichever is longer.


Not sure about the pre-m barrier but with free seed I would try pre-germination. I've done it with TTTF and it sprouted next day. KBG would really benefit from it since germination is slower. It's kind of a pain to swap out water everyday.


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## double_e5 (May 3, 2020)

Utk03analyst said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > Check the label, most Pre-emergents recommend waiting 60 days or two mowings, whichever is longer.
> ...


The reason for the wait time is root development. Even though you'd be "pre-germinating" the seeds, root pruning would be a major issue depending on the mode of action of the preM.


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## coolturf (Mar 11, 2020)

BobRoss said:


> It seems the Pro Plugger is in high demand. I cannot find it in stock anywhere online.


Just found one on amazon for $39. Before they were only showing up at 75-95, so I think they are back. Company site still shows "down for retooling.


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## Lobster Poutine (Apr 4, 2020)

coolturf said:


> BobRoss said:
> 
> 
> > It seems the Pro Plugger is in high demand. I cannot find it in stock anywhere online.
> ...


Care to share the link? Cheapest I've found is 63 plus 12 for import fees.


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## coolturf (Mar 11, 2020)

Lobster Poutine said:


> coolturf said:
> 
> 
> > BobRoss said:
> ...


Keep checking back on Amazon. I had the same issue yesterday, looked for it in the morning and all I got was over priced imports. Then in the afternoon/evening it showed up at the regular $39.95 price, free shipping plus tax, due to arrive June 6-9. Just checked and it has not shipped yet, so hard to say what is going on. Tried the order again button, but shows unavailable.


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## Lobster Poutine (Apr 4, 2020)

@coolturf thanks


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

greencare said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > KBG can pout for 2-4 weeks. Some KBG seedings don't get mowed until 60 days after seeding.
> ...


What pre em did you use? If prodiamine or dimension, those would inhibit germination. If mesotrione, that wouldn't have any affect on your seedlings.

As a general rule, kbg over seed isn't a good idea because of the length of germination. The existing grass grows and takes all the nutrients from the seedlings.

But yes KBG does have a "pout and sprout" phase. After 2-3 weeks in this phase, the grass tends to take off.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Harts said:


> greencare said:
> 
> 
> > bernstem said:
> ...


I used Scotts Crabgrass Halts having pendimethalin as the active ingredient. I thought I could defeat the pre-emergent layer by sandwiching the seeds between 1/4in fresh, new soil. I think roots are having trouble taking hold, but we will see.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Utk03analyst said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > Check the label, most Pre-emergents recommend waiting 60 days or two mowings, whichever is longer.
> ...


I used a cheese cloth and a rubber band over the small plastic bucket that I was using dunk it over and all the water goes out. Fill right through the cloth or just remove it. I have planted those seeds in a pot and they sprouted in 5 days.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@greencare according to the label you shouldn't plant grass seed for 4 months after application.

Mesotrione (tenacity) is the only pre em you can use at time of seeding.

I would say that's why you are having issues.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Harts said:


> @greencare according to the label you shouldn't plant grass seed for 4 months after application.
> 
> Mesotrione (tenacity) is the only pre em you can use at time of seeding.
> 
> I would say that's why you are having issues.


I was trying to evade the pre-emergent by putting in new soil. I didn't know that the active ingredient works by inhibiting new root growth..


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Sorry man. Whenever you are seeding, you need to avoid pre emergent - with the exception of tenacity. This can be applied at seed down to inhibit new weed growth.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

@greencare If you want to seed after Dimension/Prodiamine/Pendimethalin your best guarantee is to remove 2 inches of soil and replace it with fresh soil. Short of that, since it is a lot of work and I don't know of anyone who actually did it for more than small areas, you can till up the top 2-3 inches of soil which should break up the barrier enough, but isn't as good as replacing the top layer of dirt. Other methods such as aggressive aeration have also been reported as successful.

The general recommendation for areas that have had significant grass loss with a pre-emergent in place is to plug or use pots of your grass if you can't wait for the barrier to break down on it's own. Spreading grasses like Bluegrass have a distinct advantage over bunch grasses like Tall Fescue when it comes to pugging bare spots.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

@Harts @bernstem Thanks.

Just curious, how exactly does the pre-em barrier break down? Does it become neutralized in soil with time? Or does rain push it down further? I was going to put down pre-em again in August for poa annua control, but since I already put down 1.5x dose, and Scotts says not to put it more than twice, I was thinking of skipping it. Didn't want to cause damage to existing grass roots.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

If you don't plan to seed, put it down in August. If you do plan to seed, you can use prodiamine or dimension 60 post germination.

Cant tell you the chemistry behind how it breaks down.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Harts said:


> If you don't plan to seed, put it down in August. If you do plan to seed, you can use prodiamine or dimension 60 post germination.
> 
> Cant tell you the chemistry behind how it breaks down.


So there is no harm in putting it down again? I essentially put it down twice now, even though one was at half rate.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You need to figure out how much of the active ingredient you have applied per 1000 sf so far. Max app rate is 2.0 lb per acre according to the label or 4lb per acre for the year.

Per 1000 sf, you can apply 0.1lb of the active ingredient per year.

I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this product as I can't get it in Canada.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Harts said:


> You need to figure out how much of the active ingredient you have applied per 1000 sf so far. Max app rate is 2.0 lb per acre according to the label or 4lb per acre for the year.
> 
> Per 1000 sf, you can apply 0.1lb of the active ingredient per year.
> 
> I'm sorry. I'm not familiar with this product as I can't get it in Canada.


The bag is 13.35 lb with 1.29% pendimethalin. So, 0.172215 lbs of pendimethalin per bag, and 0.034443 lbs per 1K sqft. If I put it down at the full rate again, I would end up putting 0.0861075 lbs altogether. Where did you find the maximum listed? I don't see it listed in the label.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Right at the bottom. "This product applies...."


If 2 apps are the maximum per year and each app puts down 0.05lbs at bag rate, that gives you 0.1lbs per year


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Harts said:


> Right at the bottom. "This product applies...."
> 
> 
> If 2 apps are the maximum per year and each app puts down 0.05lbs at bag rate, that gives you 0.1lbs per year


Thanks.

If each 5K bag puts 1.5lbs of active ingredient per acre, then 1.5 lbs / 43 = 0.03488 lbs per 1K sqft, with maximum dose being 0.06976 lbs per 1K sqft yearly. Looks like I put down ~0.05166 lbs already, so I guess I should wait till next year.

I will work on thickening grass up with fertilizer this fall. I will also wait to see how early July fertilizer works on the grass, and then perhaps put it down again in early August when Poa annua/triv is dormant.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@greencare the maximum dose is the maximum for a single app. 2lbs per acre is the maximum per application. The bag states 2 applications per year so you need to double it - 4lbs per acre for the year. You will be okay to do another app in August.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Pre-emergents in general break down from biological/chemical processes in the soil rather than being washed out by rain/irrigation.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

bernstem said:


> Pre-emergents in general break down from biological/chemical processes in the soil rather than being washed out by rain/irrigation.


I thought I read that if you get heavy rain right after you apply your pre e it can compromise your barrier. So does the pre-e take some time to bind to the soil but after it's bound it can't be washed out?


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Everything takes some time. If you get heavy rain, it can be carried off in the surface runoff rather then getting into the soil profile.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Proplugger is available again on their website. Not amazon yet


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

bernstem said:


> Everything takes some time. If you get heavy rain, it can be carried off in the surface runoff rather then getting into the soil profile.


What I mean is, a heavy rain right after application and it may be washed away. But that same heavy rain weeks after application and you should be fine. If that's true it suggests to me the AI works by chemically binding to something in the soil and becomes no longer water soluble (or not *as* soluble at least).

Otherwise I would think the prodiamine label would list different "durations of effectiveness" based on soil type and amount of rainfall. Sandy soil in a place with high amounts of rain would get much shorter protection than arid clay.


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## Bean4Me (May 13, 2020)

I've read a lot of the recommendations of not wasting your time with over seeding KBG. I've got a well established lawn but its kind of thin. I'm working on dropping my hoc, last 20 years was 3.5" but now at 2" since spirng. Once i'm able to get my hands on a sunjoe i will dethatch then drop hoc to 1.5". Right now there is too much brown and when i get in there i'm thinking this lawn will look pretty thin once i get shorter and pull out all the other material. My lawn always looks like it has a yellow tinge after I cut right now and its really driving me nuts. 2-3 days later it looks great but thats about when I cut again and return it to tinge.

I'm not expecting miracles but once i dethatch and go down to 1.5" if i over seed this fall with KBG will I get any results or will it be a total failure? I'm thinking even if i can get 10-20% germination that will be nice.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

Bean4Me said:


> I've read a lot of the recommendations of not wasting your time with over seeding KBG. I've got a well established lawn but its kind of thin. I'm working on dropping my hoc, last 20 years was 3.5" but now at 2" since spirng. Once i'm able to get my hands on a sunjoe i will dethatch then drop hoc to 1.5". Right now there is too much brown and when i get in there i'm thinking this lawn will look pretty thin once i get shorter and pull out all the other material. My lawn always looks like it has a yellow tinge after I cut right now and its really driving me nuts. 2-3 days later it looks great but thats about when I cut again and return it to tinge.
> 
> I'm not expecting miracles but once i dethatch and go down to 1.5" if i over seed this fall with KBG will I get any results or will it be a total failure? I'm thinking even if i can get 10-20% germination that will be nice.


When is the last time you fertilized? If it has been over a month, I would put something down.


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## Bean4Me (May 13, 2020)

greencare said:


> Bean4Me said:
> 
> 
> > I've read a lot of the recommendations of not wasting your time with over seeding KBG. I've got a well established lawn but its kind of thin. I'm working on dropping my hoc, last 20 years was 3.5" but now at 2" since spirng. Once i'm able to get my hands on a sunjoe i will dethatch then drop hoc to 1.5". Right now there is too much brown and when i get in there i'm thinking this lawn will look pretty thin once i get shorter and pull out all the other material. My lawn always looks like it has a yellow tinge after I cut right now and its really driving me nuts. 2-3 days later it looks great but thats about when I cut again and return it to tinge.
> ...


May 18th was my last app. YTD I've put down about 1.5# of N and was going to hold since temps are increasing and will do a fall N blitz. Haven't done a soil test yet so i don't know how deficient I am overall.


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