# Foliar applications without irrigation? Anyone do this?



## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

This is my first year of foliar apps other than fungicide and insecticide through a hose end. The last app I did was FAS, Serenade, MicroGreen, and PGR. Lawn hasn't looked good since.

It got hot right after (app was June 13) and I realize it was a lot of things mixed together, so it could have just been that.

But, it seems like everyone who does foliar apps talks about rinsing it off the next morning. I can't do that. Is it a must? Should I be waiting for rain the next day? Stick with granular as much as possible?

I still have half jugs of micro green, Air8, RGS, and Humic 12. Am planning to wait until it cools off considerably to get back to using them.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It all depends. I don't like the AS to sit in the leafs too long to avoid burning.

PGR I don't irrigate after.
Serenade is a bacteria that I don't think it survived your cocktail.
The label for microgreen calls for a foliar application? It seems to be a general mix of stuff in it including more iron.
Your list does not include AS only FeSO4.
Are all the products above compatible with MSO?

Are you watering the lawn? What is wrong with the lawn? Not a fungus?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Oil and Iron do not mix. If I were applying a nutrient solution of some kind and wanted a surfactant to enhance coverage, it would be nothing more than water based Non Ionic Surfactant. 25 years ago I torched a lawn by applying Iron with Crop Oil Concentrate. Only difference between that and MSO is that MSO is a better solvent that is derived from soybean oil.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> It all depends. I don't like the AS to sit in the leafs too long to avoid burning.
> 
> PGR I don't irrigate after.
> Serenade is a bacteria that I don't think it survived your cocktail.
> ...


Probably right on the Serenade, those poor guys had no chance.

The NH4 listed is ammonium sulfate. I just didn't feel like writing the SO4. Should have clarified.

Sounds like @Greendoc answered that one on the MSO. Greendoc while you're here - is there any instance where you cannot use NIS and should use MSO? It sure would be nice to stick with one. Pun intended :bandit:

@g-man the entire turf just looked weak. The parts that were bare grass when I bough the house and was able to insert new cultivars stayed decent but all the old cultivars basically browned out. I've been staying in top of rotating granular fungicide every 3 weeks.

I think heat stress and lack of water were the main culprit, but the foliage cocktail sure didn't help. I think since I don't have irrigation if I do use PGR again I'm spring I should stop right after flush.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Pictures taken this evening after a mow. On and off again brief sprinkles all day had to sneak it in.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

I do it all the time. The only app of mine that was troublesome also contained FAS. It was humic, kelp, FAS, and fish emulsion. Permanently stained everything including leaf surfaces. I ended up cutting all hosta that got it to the ground.

I now keep my FAS app separate from others. You may have also been a bit hot using both AS and MSO in the same mix. Both will increase uptake.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

@Jconnelly6b I use MSO when the solvent and penetrating power is going to be beneficial to the application. Example of that is Quinclorac. Quinclorac is a waxy solid that somehow needs to penetrate into the Crabgrass. Nonionic Surfactant will help the spray solution wet the leaf, but not necessarily facilitate the Quinclorac penetrating into the leaf tissue. 
TLDR is MSO is good for products that are more oil soluble. Nonionic Surfactant is better for water soluble products.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

@Greendoc makes sense now. MSO used as a penetrant, and NIS for surfactant. MSO in high temps is hamful to all plants.

Thanks for the knowledge


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

NIS is a penetrant to a very small degree. But MSO I consider the ultimate penetration aid. NIS at very small amounts as in no more than 1/2 teaspoon per gallon is what i call safe when used with Iron or Nitrogen. Nothing else and no more than that.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@Greendoc how do you feel COC and organosilicones stack up to MSO and nis? Where do acids fit in? ie, citric or plain AMS in solution? Combinations?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

COC is the predecessor to MSO. It is nothing more than emulsified mineral oil. In the case of some COC, they are low viscosity. I am not a fan of organosilicone surfactant.s. They are excellent spreading agents, capable of creating very thin films of spray on leaves. However, with the thin films come evaporation and runoff.

Acids are best used with either Glyphosate or else herbicides that are organic acids such as Triclopyr or 2,4-D. They should not be used with the Sulfonylurea herbicides. As for mixing properties, normally, a herbicide that needs acids does not partition into oil very well. Glyphosate does not mix with oil. Neither do the Amine based Three Way type products. However, Glyphosate and Three Way Amine are examples of products that benefit from Acids and NIS.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Acids? Speaking of citric acid, is vinegar - low concentration acetic acid - ever used in glyphosate mixes??


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

heard of it being done. Some of the pros say it works. I prefer AS because it ties up the minerals that Interfere with Glyphosate.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> heard of it being done. Some of the pros say it works. I prefer AS because it ties up the minerals that Interfere with Glyphosate.


Thanks. So is it safe (from a chemistry/safety standpoint) to just go ahead and add like a half ounce of vinegar to a half gallon of glphosate mix that will be used to kill crabgrass and some challenging weeds growing in a patio...just to make sure the pH is on the lower side?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Vinegar alone can also kill foliage, in direct sunlight it will smoke dandelions in a few hours. I'll try it next time and add to glypho.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

@Green I think that would be safe. I have used this with Glyphosate as a surfactant. Contains a lot of Propionic Acid which is similar to Acetic Acid. http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld73M004.pdf


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> @Green I think that would be safe. I have used this with Glyphosate as a surfactant. Contains a lot of Propionic Acid which is similar to Acetic Acid. http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld73M004.pdf


Ok. I did a search on google scholar, and propionic, citric, and even acetic and other acids were mentioned in several studies in regard to herbicides in general as adjuvants, but no details given specifically for glyphosate.

Most of my search results using regular google were next to useless...mostly acetic acid versus glyphosate. Even some semi anti-roundup individual who suggested people use vinegar with a few drops of roundup. No thanks...I don't want to be part of the cause of resistance propogation. If I want to use vinegar, I use just vinegar alone, not spiked with trace amounts of glyphosate. And I do use table vinegar at times to burn weeds.

Edit: that stuff you use lists methylacetic acid on the label, for what it's worth...

I think if it doesn't turn brown or explode, I will be fine.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

@Green Methylacetic acid is Propionic acid. Wish they would come out and say it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> @Green Methylacetic acid is Propionic acid. Wish they would come out and say it.


Lol. Thanks. I'm not up on how it differs from regular acetic acid in terms of its properties or smell.


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