# Advice for leveling and thickening 4 yr old lawn



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

Hi all,

Thanks in advance for any advice you are able to provide.

Background: I've been wanting to improve my backyard for a number of years and it looks like I finally have some time to devote to the cause. We had our backyard completely renovated by a landscaping company in August 2017. The old grass was killed off, a new irrigation system was installed, a layer of sandy loam was put down and leveled, and finally the lawn was hydroseeded. Fast forward 4 years and the lawn is 1) very lumpy and 2) very thin.

The lumpiness seems to be due to natural settling plus worm castings. This makes it unpleasant to mow plus it just isn't comfortable to walk on

The thinness is due to - well I'm not so sure. When it was hydroseeded it was very hot. It's possible I either watered too much or too little. It also seems that different species survived in different places on the lawn. Along the concrete patio with awning that provides some shade, it seems that KBG? is the main species. In the rest of the yard (full sun) there seems to be little to no KBG.

In any case and after doing some research, I plan to do the following this weekend:

1. Mow to just under 2" (probably 'B' on my Toro SuperRecycler).
2. Remove as much dead grass as possible using a Greenworks corded dethatcher.
3. Fertilize with Scotts Turf Builder Lawn Food.
4. Then next weekend I plan to add either TurfBuilder soil (sandy loam & compost) or 'screened cleaned sand' to start the leveling process.

Any comments on my plan? Is this a good set of steps to start?

I'll post images next.

Thanks,
Kent


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

This first picture was taken last night in the middle of a mow. In the background is what the lawn looks like after 2 days of growth after mowing on 'E' (about 3.5" HOC). In the foreground is after mowing on 'C' (about 2.5" HOC).



Here are some pictures from around the lawn after mowing at 2.5" HOC showing overall thinness and dead grass buildup.









Here is a picture of a thin area after I removed most of the dead grass by hand using a thatch rake. Little to no green grass was removed.



And here are 2 pics showing the overall lawn this morning (last mow was last night at 2.5" HOC).





Any comments or questions are welcome!

Thanks,
Kent


----------



## amartin003 (Apr 30, 2021)

I'm by no means an expert, but I can suggest some things that I've been doing with success as my lawn looked similar to yours. I would recommend getting a soil test to see what nutrients may be lacking. In my case, after dethatching I put down a high quality organic 9-2-2 fertilizer while I'm awaiting my soil test results. The nitrogen gave it a good boost and I figured the P and K would help and my lawn is looking much better already. Make sure it's getting enough water especially as it starts to heat up - and that your irrigation system doesn't have any dead zones. Hopefully you'll start to see some progress after detaching to allow it to breath, along with the fertilizer and water. You may also want to overseed later in the season, if things haven't thickened up enough.

I too will have to address the lumpiness in my lawn - will be topdressing with a combination of top soil and sand.


----------



## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

spokane_valley_dude said:


> This first picture was taken last night in the middle of a mow. In the background is what the lawn looks like after 2 days of growth after mowing on 'E' (about 3.5" HOC). In the foreground is after mowing on 'C' (about 2.5" HOC).


The only difference between those 2 areas is your HOC? So, when you finished mowing, that back section looked the same as the foreground? From that pic, that back section looks pretty good. Why don't you just mow it all at that higher HOC?

Also, what kind of irrigation do you have? And how often and how much are you watering?


----------



## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

My eyeballs may be deceiving me, but is that a lot of sad fine fescue? FF doesn't like being short at all. It just won't tolerate it. Not short. And not too boggy.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I agree that this looks like a fine fescue. Maybe creeping red fescue.

I don't love this type of grass for a sunny area. 1) it doesnt like a hoc since it mats down. 2) at the first sign of summer it checks out and goes dormant.

What's your weather like? What are your goals?


----------



## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

It doesn't look that bad - Id follow your plan of using a greenworks dethatcher and get all of that dead stuff out (I wouldn't scalp it - I'd see how much stuff you could get out at the current cutting height) - give it some fertilizer and let it get up to 4" and leave it alone until the fall.


----------



## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

It does look like FF. Your issues could come back yearly as the weather heats up with FF. That grass type is for shade. Depending on the amount of effort time you want to put in you might have to consider a grass that prefers sunny areas (KBG/rye).


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

amartin003 said:


> I'm by no means an expert, but I can suggest some things that I've been doing with success as my lawn looked similar to yours. I would recommend getting a soil test to see what nutrients may be lacking. In my case, after dethatching I put down a high quality organic 9-2-2 fertilizer while I'm awaiting my soil test results. The nitrogen gave it a good boost and I figured the P and K would help and my lawn is looking much better already. Make sure it's getting enough water especially as it starts to heat up - and that your irrigation system doesn't have any dead zones. Hopefully you'll start to see some progress after detaching to allow it to breath, along with the fertilizer and water. You may also want to overseed later in the season, if things haven't thickened up enough.
> 
> I too will have to address the lumpiness in my lawn - will be topdressing with a combination of top soil and sand.


Thanks for the input!

1. A soil test is a priority. The soil has never been tested. I do know that my soil has a large rock component. I have no idea about the nutrient makeup.

2. I also need to measure how much water I am putting down. The irrigation system definitely doesn't have any dead zones BUT it also isn't optimally dialed in. By dialed in I mean balanced gpm / sqft based on sprinkler overlap and nozzle flow rates.

3. I wouldn't describe what I'm about to do as dethatching... I don't think I have an actual thatch problem. I just have a lot of dead grass. I just want to remove that dead grass right now so that I'm not sandwiching that dead grass between the soil and the leveling material I plan to put down. That's also why I'm not using a 'real' dethatching machine... just the Greenworks corded model. Maybe my thinking is wrong here and I shouldn't bother removing the dead grass?

4. I definitely need to fertilize. I haven't done so yet this spring. Last year I did 2 fertilizer applications with Dr. Earth Lawn Food.

5. Yes - I think overseeding this fall is the minimum I need to do to improve the quality of the lawn. Until fall rolls around I figure I can work on leveling, weed removal, soil amendments and getting the watering dialed in.

Thanks again,
Kent


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

Fraust said:


> spokane_valley_dude said:
> 
> 
> > This first picture was taken last night in the middle of a mow. In the background is what the lawn looks like after 2 days of growth after mowing on 'E' (about 3.5" HOC). In the foreground is after mowing on 'C' (about 2.5" HOC).
> ...


That's correct the only different is HOC and yes the background looked identical once mown (mowed?). The back section and the lawn in general does look pretty good from a distance but in my opinion it isn't lush and looks like it is always on the verge of dying.

Right now I'm mowing shorter so I can more easily remove the dead grass on the soil surface. The shorter HOC also clearly shows what I'm trying to change about the lawn. In the longer term another reason to lower the HOC is because we have 2 miniature wiener dogs and they really prefer a lower HOC. 

I have a full in ground sprinkler system. I water every day - not sure exactly how much I am watering per day.

Kent


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

Lawndress said:


> My eyeballs may be deceiving me, but is that a lot of sad fine fescue? FF doesn't like being short at all. It just won't tolerate it. Not short. And not too boggy.


Good to know about what FF likes and doesn't like. I would assume the hydroseed was a typical Inland Northwest blend of KBG/FF/PRG but I don't know for sure.


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

g-man said:


> I agree that this looks like a fine fescue. Maybe creeping red fescue.
> 
> I don't love this type of grass for a sunny area. 1) it doesnt like a hoc since it mats down. 2) at the first sign of summer it checks out and goes dormant.
> 
> What's your weather like? What are your goals?


Thanks g-man.

Yes you nailed it... the lawn mats down and checks out early when my neighbors' lawns are still very green.

Weather is cold and wet in the winter with some snowfall and then HOT SUNNY and DRY in the summer. We often go for 30-60 days without any rain in the summer. Pretty much everyone waters every day in the summer due to the rock content in the soil, the long days, and the low humidity.

My goals are to get my backyard to Level 2 with a 2.5" HOC and I think I prefer KBG. (KBG doesn't require overseeding to become thicker, correct?)

My main frustration is that I feel like the lawn that I paid for in 2017 never materialized for whatever reason. I kept hoping it would 'fill in' but it never did.

Thanks,
Kent


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

Jackson said:


> It doesn't look that bad - Id follow your plan of using a greenworks dethatcher and get all of that dead stuff out (I wouldn't scalp it - I'd see how much stuff you could get out at the current cutting height) - give it some fertilizer and let it get up to 4" and leave it alone until the fall.


I think I'll follow your advice of not cutting it any shorter. The upcoming week is going to be unseasonably hot.


----------



## spokane_valley_dude (May 27, 2021)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> It does look like FF. Your issues could come back yearly as the weather heats up with FF. That grass type is for shade. Depending on the amount of effort time you want to put in you might have to consider a grass that prefers sunny areas (KBG/rye).


I have a feeling that the hydroseed put down was a mix of KBG/rye/FF but I don't think the species survived evenly across the lawn. Bummer that what I have prefers shade. My backyard is full sun - which is why we installed a patio cover that runs across the full width of the back of the house.


----------



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

The first picture does have a drastic difference.

If the "dead grass" is fine fescue it is just dormant grass and not dead, you might remove some material but the FF will be there. It's difficult to get rid off even for a fall reno because its dormant all summer even with full watering (needs cool temperature). I noticed that with some peripheral spots in my renovation.

Before you try going through the whole process that you described above (except the soil test to check for pH/macros etc) I would try to let it grow to 4" and mow down to 3.5" and keep it there. See how it looks.

In the meantime based on the soil test optimize the soil best you can. In the fall, scalp and overseed with a great variety that can clump out some of the FF and give you more consistency.

I havent seen an easy answer to a lumpy bumpy lawn which I am in search of as well.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't think your lawn will improve mowed at 4in. It might get worst. Check @FuzzeWuzze lawn journal since I think he has a similar weather.


----------



## hammerhead (May 14, 2019)

I do not see the logic behind when people say fine fescue does not like to be cut short. Fine fescue can be mown very short. In my opinion it does much better short cut because it cannot mat down. I myself have quite a lot of FF in my lawn and it is mown at 0.5". Indeed some species of FF turn brown quickly when there is heat. I do not like FF either but saying it does not like to be cut short is wrong.
Regarding your pics: Maybe you scalped your lawn, i.e. cut off too much at a time. Since FF was matted down you possibly cut much more than 1/3 of it. Just a guess.


----------



## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

uts said:


> The first picture does have a drastic difference.
> 
> If the "dead grass" is fine fescue it is just dormant grass and not dead, you might remove some material but the FF will be there. It's difficult to get rid off even for a fall reno because its dormant all summer even with full watering (needs cool temperature). I noticed that with some peripheral spots in my renovation.
> 
> ...


If you keep it too wet, you can kill it. lol. I've killed a lot of FF in my day. I have low spots in the lawn.

But seriously...I have a hate-hate relationship with FF. I would kill it with fire in the sun. It was bad enough to put up with for years in the shade. Moving to Poa supina is the best thing I've ever done for the shady parts of my lawn.


----------



## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

hammerhead said:


> I do not see the logic behind when people say fine fescue does not like to be cut short. Fine fescue can be mown very short. In my opinion it does much better short cut because it cannot mat down. I myself have quite a lot of FF in my lawn and it is mown at 0.5". Indeed some species of FF turn brown quickly when there is heat. I do not like FF either but saying it does not like to be cut short is wrong.
> Regarding your pics: Maybe you scalped your lawn, i.e. cut off too much at a time. Since FF was matted down you possibly cut much more than 1/3 of it. Just a guess.


I've found that it dies out in damp areas very, very fast if cut short. OTOH, it hasn't really matted down when left long--before I neighbor accidentally nuked hers because we had a too-long dry spell and she didn't water it and managed to kill it all completely, she had a section that she planted with FF and simply never mowed at all. For two years, looked really lovely and didn't mat. I wouldn't call it a typical lawn look, but it was attractive and striking. It looked like this (first picture): https://www.amazon.com/Outsidepride-Legacy-Fine-Fescue-Grass/dp/B004MNATTS/ref=asc_df_B004MNATTS/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=216531753338&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9614600814520080062&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007720&hvtargid=pla-350733017161&psc=1
And given her utter neglect of the lawn after establishment, that was amazing. (She loathes yardwork.) It died in the 3rd year because of drought.

Its tolerance of being cut short may be water-dependent or heat-dependent. I just know that it had better get the right amount of water, or else it's going to go belly up here, and cutting it short makes it much worse.


----------



## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

spokane_valley_dude said:


> I have a feeling that the hydroseed put down was a mix of KBG/rye/FF but I don't think the species survived evenly across the lawn. Bummer that what I have prefers shade. My backyard is full sun - which is why we installed a patio cover that runs across the full width of the back of the house.


In my experience, if the grass is healthy and well fertilized - The KBG eventually takes over. We had 2 huge patches of shade tolerant rye / ff that the previous owner planted by a tree and a shady spot in the backyard that would check out early in the heat. I would rake the dead / dormant stuff which left bare areas with random blades of good grass which I continued to fertilize. I did this because it would fall over and mat (which would choke out the healthy stuff - you have great looking grass that will fill in those areas easily once it's removed) - it looked exactly like your photos but a lot worse because it was concentrated. After a couple of years of raking out the brown stuff and fertilizing the bluegrass progressively got healthier and it spread to 100% take over those areas and I have what appears to be a mono stand of KBG in my whole yard.

I have a greenworks dethatcher now, and it would have saved me so much time over manually raking. Right before the fall blitz / aggressive nitrogen program - go 4 different directions and really thin the lawn out - it will bounce back with a vengeance and in the spring, the KBG will be so thick that the other stuff will not have a chance.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> I don't think your lawn will improve mowed at 4in. It might get worst. Check @FuzzeWuzze lawn journal since I think he has a similar weather.


Unfortunately nope. People west of the cascades in OR/WA like me have much different climate. The east(and especially how far east he is, basically Idaho) is closer to the rest of you northern guys with drier summers and colder winters.

If it is fine fescue, i wouldnt mow it high though. It tends to flop over and become unmowable and mat's down when wet smothering out other grass.


----------



## GreenMountainLawn (Jul 23, 2019)

Another thread where FF rears its ugly head. Why is it put in so many mixes?

I have a large inherited mix lawn from previous owner with a decent amount of FF in full sun. My average mid July high is 78-80F and my FF looks awful even here by mid June.


----------



## PNW_George (May 28, 2018)

I may be the lone remaining fan of fine fescue.

Fine Fescue can certainly be cut short. It is the primary type of grass at UK golf courses. It is used at Bandon Dunes, OR, one of the top-rated courses in the USA. Chambers Bay in Tacoma, WA used Fine Fescue tee through green when they hosted the US Open in 2015. They have since lost the battle on the greens and are transitioning to perennial poa annua but still use fine fescue for the fairways, tees and rough.

Gamble Sands is on the east side of the mountains, not really Spokane climate, but has Fine Fescue so it can be done.

https://www.gamblesands.com/sands-course/

Eastern Washington has more extreme weather than western Washington with much colder winters and much hotter summers. Fine Fescue does tend to go dormmate in heat if not carefully irrigated. KBG should do well in your climate while not as easy to grow in western Washington.


----------

