# Ideal seed for Northern Va



## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

I

My first post, looking to gain alot of wisdom here, looks like a great, informative site.

I'm looking to renovate my 1 total acre of grass which is split up Into 3 sections. I'm working on one section this fall and I'm debating between Lesco Transition blend or Falcon, both are avail close to where I live.

The yard has been tilled, low spots filled with topsoil, I have 3 yards of topsoil/organic mix which I'm going to mix in.

Should I mix the remaining 3 yards Into the soil or use as a top dressing?

Also, I can't decide between the two seeds listed. Looking for the better shade and drought tolerant mix, is either one superior or am I splitting hairs?

Looks like the Falcon has quite a following...looking for opinions.

Thank you.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

NTEP is always a good first stop when deciding on a cultivar for your locale.

This is the 2016 Tall fescue data for College Park, MD, which seems to be the closest geographically to Northern VA.

http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_17-8/tf12md116t.txt

I'm sure someone local to you might chime in with personal experience.

Cheers and welcome!


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is VA Tech's list of recommended cultivars for Virginia:
http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/CSES/CSES-17/CSES-17NP.pdf
You could check the tag on the Lesco blend to see which cultivars are included. I would suggest that you do some research and come up with your own blend, ordering it to be shipped to you, but you are way late in planting. A blend can help in case one cultivar gets wiped out by a disease and the other cultivars are resistant to it. Did you do a soil test? If you had needed lime, tilling would have been an ideal time to incorporate it. Tilling creates a set of problems and many renovate without disturbing the soil. Try to firm up the soil as much as possible. Be sure everything drains away from the house. How are you going to water?


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

The soil ph is 6.4, I could add lime and till again..if so, what lime is recommended? I assume a more fast-acting.

The Transition Blend cultivars are:

Padre 38%
Caesar 33%
Kingdom 27%

Yes it's late, I wish I could have don't this last month....I will water with sprinklers on timers.

I also have a tow behind roller, can also be lightened up and made a walk-behind.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

No, no! No lime! You are in the sweet spot for pH. As for which seed, how about using both? Falcon V is on VA Tech's recommended list and none of the Lesco ones are. You could use mostly Falcon and mix in the other cultivars as insurance. Glad you have a water plan. Are you planning to seed today or after Tuesday's rain?


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Was going for today, looks like am rain but prob wouldn't hurt to wait...not sure of the intensity.

Would I need to lime if I'm adding organic or just leave it alone?

Looks like Falcon isn't avail locally, but there was another fescue my local distributor stocks and it's "Winning Colors" I believe its comprised of...Picasso, Rembrandt, Monet, and VanGogh.

A few people here swear by it, and will likely be my choice. Not 100% certain but for now it looks like the choice.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

No lime. Organic or nonorganic has nothing to do with it. You do not need lime and adding lime could raise your pH too high. It's great right where it is. Leave it alone.

Every day you wait to seed is a day's worth of growing lost and growing days are getting fewer and fewer. If you are pretty sure you have the ground firmed up and the drainage is good, you could seed today. The advantage to waiting until after the rain is you miss any downpours that might wash the seed and you can make sure drainage is working as it should. If you are finding puddles, there might be low spots you need to fix.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Ok, no lime....thank you.

Worst case, if I do seed today, could I cover the seed with plastic for a few hours if the rain plans on being slightly moderate?

Also, as far as rolling, should I roll first, rake the seed Into the soil then roll again or just roll the seed on top? I assume being under some soil is more beneficial rather than just on top.

Edit....I will roll either way, just not sure if it matters if the seed needs to be under 1/2" of dirt if I roll them on the surface.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

This is the soil sample from about 1 month ago.

What would you suggest as a starting fert?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I don't know how soft/firm your soil is. If you step on it and your feet sink in, it needs to be rolled more (before you seed). Leave the seed on top. If you bury it, it won't germinate. A very light coating of something (compost, soil, straw, peat, etc.) about 1/8 inch can go on top but it's also fine not to use anything. Roll it after you put the seed down. That will help push the seed into the soil. The rain is coming tonight and downpours are possible (there are gale warnings for Arlington). I would not bother with plastic. Just save some seed and if you have washouts, put more seed down tomorrow where it washed.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Any starter fertilizer is okay. Or you can skip it (you have plenty of phosphorus). You are low in potassium so that can be something you work on increasing whenever you fertilize. Choose a fertilizer with nitrogen and potassium but little or no phosphorus. For seeding, many people like to use a starter fertilizer so that there is phosphorus right by the seed. It looks like you have plenty and it's not necessary.


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## Vols_fan08 (Jul 10, 2017)

Dkd71 said:


> Ok, no lime....thank you.
> 
> Worst case, if I do seed today, could I cover the seed with plastic for a few hours if the rain plans on being slightly moderate?
> 
> ...


In my opinion seed needs to be IN the dirt. As with anything in nature. Many of my seed that was on top of the dirt can still be seen sitting there.. JMO from my experience !


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I agree. They should be in the dirt, in contact with the dirt. Rolling them after spreading should put them in the dirt. Not necessary to be covered, though. I'm afraid that since he has tilled, the seed is going to go too far down. He also has that 3 yards of topsoil sitting there and he has talked about covering them up with a 1/2 inch of soil. Better to err on the side of less dirt covering them.


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## Vols_fan08 (Jul 10, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> I agree. They should be in the dirt, in contact with the dirt. Rolling them after spreading should put them in the dirt. Not necessary to be covered, though. I'm afraid that since he has tilled, the seed is going to go too far down. He also has that 3 yards of topsoil sitting there and he has talked about covering them up with a 1/2 inch of soil. Better to err on the side of less dirt covering them.


Roger that. They definitely don't need to be deep down. 1/8 to 1/4 of an inch is ideal. :thumbup:


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

Have you already purchased seed? If not, what local stores are you considering? I've seen Mountain View distribute a very good blend as several different names here in central VA. My guess is that it could be found locally in NoVA too. I'll be happy to help you find it.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Looks like I'm going to wait until tomorrow to lay the seed...we're going to get a strong band of rain late tonight for a couple hours and I don't want to wash the seed away.

I placed a few large tarps down so my work doesn't turn into a canoe....

This part of the lawn is at the bottom of the driveway which is roughly 150', so there's alot of runoff.

The soil is firm, I rolled it today and I can manage a footprint but my foot doesn't sink Into The soil.

I did purchase the seed today, I ended up with Lebanon Turf "Winning Colors". This blend has been doing very well in my area....it's
worth a shot. If it wasn't so late in the game I would research everyone's recommendations further....I truly appreciate everyone's prompt input on this....many thanks.

Here's a pic of the tag.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Hope all goes well with your seeding today. In general cool season grass should receive most of the annual fertilizer in the fall. You have missed the optimal September and October times for fertilizing. You can still do the late fall application of a quick release nitrogen after the grass has stopped growing but before the ground freezes. For your potassium, you might find fertilizer with a good supply of potassium. You could also look for sulfate of potassium (0-0-50) which supplies only potassium. Some organic fertilizers that supply a fair amount of potassium are alfalfa (rabbit food pellets) and kelp. Organic fertilizers need warm soil temperatures for the microbes to be active. They are slowing down for fall now. Your new grass will likely need some fertilizer in the spring. What recommendations did you get with the soil test?


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Thanks, I will look for some 0-0-50 after it gets going.
I've been taking care of either my lawn, parents lawn, for quite a number of years, interesting facts here about the depth for the seed....I never really gave it much thought. I've always stuck it in the dirt probably 1/2" to 1", wasn't aware it needed to be closer to the surface.

I should have added more to the title of this thread...."Ideal seed and methods for freshly tilled yard" 

With regards to watering, how wet do the seeds need to stay, or just don't let them fully dry out? I can water every hour if needed, or more likely being less frequent. I was thinking 15 min every 2-3 hours maybe 3 or 4 times daily....starting around 6 or 7 AM.

What do you suggest?


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## monty (Jul 25, 2017)

I had a lot of success watering 4 times a day. Morning dew was pretty heavy so first watering at 10am, 1pm, 4pm, 7pm. I watered just enough to get things wet. 5 min per zone on irrigation system


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

The weather is cooler now (less evaporation). The idea is to keep the seed moist until germination, then gradually reduce the frequency and increase the amount of water. Morning dew is keeping my grass wet until noon (or later). Do 5 minutes around midday and 5 minutes mid or late afternoon. That may be enough at this time of year. If not, add another cycle.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Update on this, I ended up having to wait until Tuesday night to seed, but everything is in place, I couldn't set my timer for every 3 hours so it was either 1,2,4,6,or 12. First sprinkler is impact and have it on every 2 hours for 8 min, covering about 3000 sq.ft, the second sprinkler is on a mist setting, for 5 min for roughly 1000 sq, ft every 2 hours...starting at 8 AM and finishing at 6 PM.

This gets the soil damp but no puddles, it's in direct sun from about noon till 5 PM now with it's low angle.

Is this too frequent or should I opt for every 4 hours. I'm leaning on the side of staying damp without drying out.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

It seems more than necessary at this time of year. But probably no harm if there are no puddles or runoff.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Looks like there's some sprouting going on, some areas are about 1/4" to 1/2" high. I have reduced watering to 8 min every 4 hours 3 times a day. There were a few leaves on some areas and a couple very small patches have grass with white tips, areas about the size of a 4" circle....hopefully they will be ok.

I have cleared the leaves so hopefully in the next few days we will have some good progress.

The torrential rain last week took a little seed, not much, might have a couple sparse patches but we will see.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

This is after 12 days, I'm curious if its still too early to rule out the patchy areas that may need to be re-seeded. I believe some seeds went slightly deep, about 1/2" so that could be the reason.

But would like opinions if the patchy areas are normal with neighboring areas already at 1".

There are some areas with stems just pushing through the surface so my gut says to wait. I know this sounds like seeding 101 but I want to get this one right....

The top pic is the area that has patches, but not everywhere.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Looks like way too much water to me. You should cut the water back to once a day.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> Looks like way too much water to me. You should cut the water back to once a day.


I believe that's the glare from the sun, not saying the ground isn't wet though. We had rain last night so the ground is still moist. I haven't watered since Saturday morning...been alot of rain.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I second j4c11's opinion. I recognize that look from overwatered areas of my own recent reno


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Ok, I'll cut back the watering. During non-rain events, I was at 3 times daily, every 4 hrs, for 8 min.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Here's an update on the progress, I wish I had started 2 weeks sooner to avoid the torrential downpour early in the process, unfortunately that wasn't possible.

This resulted in a few thin areas but perhaps I could fill those areas in early spring.

I haven't cut the grass yet, not sure if I should remove the tips since the majority of the grass is right at 3", wanted to ask members' opinions. Would the grass fare better during the winter without removing the new tips?

So far so good, I appreciate all the help on this. :thumbup:


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## sicride (Nov 8, 2017)

This late in the year, let mother nature handle it until spring. Just keep those leafs off of it and she'll do just fine! Start planning what you'll do for spring fertilizer now, it'll be key to get them fed well before heat stress since you had a late start.


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

So leave the grass at its current height? May possibly reach 3 1/2- 4" before it completely goes dormant. I assume leaving the new, uncut tips alone is best?


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## Dkd71 (Oct 23, 2017)

Bump.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I would cut it to about 2.5" to prevent it from matting down.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Dkd71 said:


> So leave the grass at its current height? May possibly reach 3 1/2- 4" before it completely goes dormant. I assume leaving the new, uncut tips alone is best?


As i understand it, its the exact opposite, cutting forces the plant to send up more shoots and become more dense.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Just thought I'd track this thread down and report on the stellar results I've had with the Lebanon Winning Colors seed this year, in Western North Carolina. Wife and I were out in the yard putting it down several weeks back and while we were working on another project outside today she broke the momentary silence by exclaiming, "*Whatever that seed was that we put down last month is ALL YOU NEED TO EVER PUT DOWN, in the future!*"

Good stuff and thanks to TLF (again!) - We're it not for the members here, I'd have never heard about it!

PS - I got mine from our local Site One ... wanna say $65 / 50lb bag ...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@440mag pictures?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

I was afraid someone was gonna ask for those (I have to confess I am more than a little intimidated by many of the photos posted here, to the point of a minor inferiority complex! :lol: but, y' know what, what the hey, I will snap a couple pics before heading out tomorrow and post 'em up! :thumbup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ha! Have you seen my polka dot lawn from dollar spot damage?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

g-man said:


> @440mag pictures?


So, not the best morning for taking pictures but, some sun managed to poke out of the clouds just before I had to split ... should mention ground has stayed so wet since Michael roared through that rider mowing hasn't been an option (it takes 3-1/2 hours continuous to push mow our property from the acces road down to the lakeshore so, still nursing an upper resp. infection, I am opting to wait for the ground to dry out! :lol:

First, *THE GOOD*.

2 years ago, this entrance and the area adjacent to it were slammed with spurge and clover and chamberbitter:







This steep sloped meadow is perhaps the lushest area on the property; a testament to hand raking pine needles and thatch after the snow melt, pre-emergents and awesome for bare feet and Easter egg rolls...




We used to refer to this (former h*ll-strip) as "the swamp" but, finally got TTTF to thrive in the all day shade and near constant wet (a testament to alternating fungicide MOA at preventative doses). Consecutive overseeds of "Millennium" from SiteOne in 2016-17 and Winning Colors, this year





Now, for *THE BAD*.
Should be easy to spot where the test versus control areas start and stop after our 2nd spray of Tenacity (2-3 weeks apart). We refer the hill on the right in the second pic as, "Poa Slope" :x





And now, *THE UGLY*.

This backyard is where, despite the ample buffer strip, I am extremely limited as to what chemicals I can apply and am largely restricted to organic / bio methods. This is also where the wild turkeys do the most damage and where I made the awful, awful mistake of using inferior seed mixes (Scott's, Rebel, Rural King selections, etc.) before y'all turned me onto Lebanon Winning Colors and now have bentgrass and quack-grass to deal with as a result, in addition to poa A and poa T. Sigh ... (should mention there was a crew of contractors back here all weekend and the ground was soaking wet so, much turf is simply beyond matted down ...). Also, and again, results of 2nd Tenacity app are clearly evident back here, too.





Backyard from opposite angles and not sure they illustrate the slopes which prudence dictates I go after the Poa A, Poa T and other grassy weeds without a full reno (pictures don't show it but, this is "Billy Goat" grade and no rider mower is an option back here; push mowing is mandatory ...)





The area just in front of the retaining wall in the 1st photo above and dead center of the photo below are what my wife was staring at when she made her comment about thebWinning Colors blend yesterday - until we tried the Winning Colors, the turkeys kept the steep hill in front of that retaining wall looking like a muddy logging road and the center of the photo below is where we had septic work done in June and weren't able to get ANY seed to establish - until we tried the Winning Colors 3-4 weeks ago.



Finally, back uphill to the front yard again for two last pics showing how well the Winning Colors has filled in the countless "scorched patches" where I was driven to use glysophate on bentgarss and quackgrass last Spring. Evidence of the Tenacity is clear and the wide-angle shot is a good example of where I will be (judiciously) experimenting with the Tenacity-Triplocyr and or Tenacity-Dismiss combinations next Spring. I realize it is too late to go after the Poa T, bentgrass and quackgrass now ...




I've got a lonnnng way to go but, no way I'd've ever gottenntonwhere I am now without the help and guidance if y'all, here at TLF!!!!!!!!!! :nod: :thumbup:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

For the poa-a in fescue, you can use mesotrione and ethofumesate for 2 rounds as a soil app in the fall followed by prodiamine to cover the winter. This will allow you to seed also every fall. In the spring, one app of ethofumesate and then prodiamine for spring and summer. This will stop the poa-a but must be done for many years as those seeds are just itching to germinate and are viable for a long time.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

440mag give yourself some credit. It looks great. Yes there are some areas to work on, but that steep hill will be a challenge. This view reminds me of Asheville, NC.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Thank YOU! I have struggled to juggle summer overseeding against fall pre-emergents I appreciate that info (wasn't aware)!


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

g-man said:


> 440mag give yourself some credit. It looks great. Yes there are some areas to work on, but that steep hill will be a challenge. This view reminds me of Asheville, NC.


Thanks, you and many other members have played a huge part - Dang, good eye; Asheville is about an hour West of us; and oh yes, I am quite envious when I see pics of lucky members with level (or even remotely flat) yardens! :lol:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

440mag said:


> Thank YOU! I have struggled to juggle summer overseeding against fall pre-emergents I appreciate that info (wasn't aware)!


Here's the specific schedule for seeding Tall Fescue (not KBG, fine fescue, or rye):
Day 1: seed, mesotrione, ethofumesate
Day 7: germination (1 week post seeding)
Day 28: ethofumesate (3 weeks after germination, 4 weeks after seed down)
Day 35: mesotrione (4 weeks after germination, 5 weeks after seed down)
Day 63: prodiamine (60 days after seeding)(3-4 month rate or whatever needed to get to spring)
Spring when soil temps reach low to mid 40's, apply ethofumesate. Once soil temps reach 50, apply prodiamine.

This needs to be done for a number of years due to the seed bank being viable for a while but it will stop poa-a and also most other weeds too.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Here's the specific schedule for seeding Tall Fescue (not KBG, fine fescue, or rye):
> Day 1: seed, mesotrione, ethofumesate
> Day 7: germination (1 week post seeding)
> Day 28: ethofumesate (3 weeks after germination, 4 weeks after seed down)
> ...


Oh man, this is priceless; and, not just for me, I'm sure -- *MANY THANKS! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: 
*
I am "copy & pasting" this into my "Word" doc. "log" -- for permanent reference -- yes, indeed, I am in this for the long haul, so to speak!

And, I am going to start $aving up for the ethofumesate (will have to wait for the right time to "spring" that investment on, "She Who Must Be Obeyed" :lol: lucky for me she absolutely digs a squared away turf!


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

440mag said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > Here's the specific schedule for seeding Tall Fescue (not KBG, fine fescue, or rye):
> ...


Forgot to mention, these are all soil applied so they do need a little water to get into the dirt. For the ethofumesate, buy poa constrictor and you can maybe do a split with someone else if you don't want as much.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Here's the specific schedule for seeding Tall Fescue (not KBG, fine fescue, or rye):
> Day 1: seed, mesotrione, ethofumesate
> Day 7: germination (1 week post seeding)
> Day 28: ethofumesate (3 weeks after germination, 4 weeks after
> ...


Jumping in...I had never really heard of this before your posts. How is it different in results from Tenacity? It appears it's not labeled for use in my state. Is that very unfortunate in your opinion?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Green said:


> Jumping in...I had never really heard of this before your posts. How is it different in results from Tenacity? It appears it's not labeled for use in my state. Is that very unfortunate in your opinion?


It doesn't turn the weeds white. They just slowly die like most herbicides. If you check out the label, there isn't a whole lot of overlap for weeds controlled between the two. It is mainly to target poa-a. If you don't have a poa-a outbreak, I wouldn't spend the money. Just hand pull the ones you do have. It also stresses out bermuda so if you are overseeding TTTF into bermuda, that may be a plus...


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Forgot to mention, these are all soil applied so they do need a little water to get into the dirt. For the ethofumesate, buy poa constrictor and you can maybe do a split with someone else if you don't want as much.


Oh wow,thanks AGAIN (that IS much more economical than some of the other brand options I was coming across)!

LOL, another "fit" for me with respect to your prescribed regimen is that, when soil temps are in the 40's here, I am usually chomping at the bit an getting cabin crazy to get out in the yard - always "looking for excuses" to do so, that time of year! :lol:

PS - gosh, it just occurred to me - I'm gonna have to change my signature line, too! (Whoo-hoo! :thumbup:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

440mag said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > Forgot to mention, these are all soil applied so they do need a little water to get into the dirt. For the ethofumesate, buy poa constrictor and you can maybe do a split with someone else if you don't want as much.
> ...


 :thumbsup:


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