# Always double check your measurements: An MSM story



## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

_I want to preface this by saying that I accept full responsibility for whatever happens after this... always double check your measurements when using high-powered herbicides _

A little back story before getting to the cringe-worthy parts.... In summer 2019, I had a ~500sf area of my St Augustine grass die off from a mixture of fungus (from watering in the evening 2 times) and the area being where we had our fire pit over winter. Ever since getting in to lawn care a few years ago, I had always dreamed of going _reel low_, so I knew getting rid of the SA eventually had to happen. To fill in that spot, I killed off the remaining turf (glyphosate), scalped, torched and prepped the area before laying 1 pallet of TifTuf Bermuda sod. My plan was to do this for the rest of the yard the following year....

Fast forward to yesterday (21 April 2020)... It was about 4:30pm and I had somewhere to be at 5:30, so there was a little rush in my step (*problem #1*). I was ready to go in for the kill on the remaining 3500sf of SA/zoysia/weeds. The weed pressure I had was minimal. Some clover and Poa from where I messed up my fall PreM app. I also have some fescue clumps and a handful of spots of Liriope. In order to make sure that I killed everything before moving on with the renovation, I consulted with some ppl (_names redacted to save face_) and came up with a plan. Here was the planned mixture:


3oz/K Glyphosate

2oz/K Crossbow

0.5oz/A MSM

5oz/A Celsius

8oz/A Dismiss (Sulfentrazone)

1oz/K NIS



I was going to mix all of this up in a 4gal backpack sprayer and kill off 4,000sf of turf. I went about measuring my chems and dropping them in to the sprayer filled 1/2 way with water. 
_Glyphosate: _*EASY*
 
_Crossbow: _*EASY*
 
_Celsius_: label has the listing per K (3.2g/K)*CHECK*
 
_MSM_: convert .5oz to g using Google on my iPhone (*problem #2*), divide by 43.56, multiply by 4 *CHECK*
 
_Sulfentrazone_: label has the listing per K (.184oz/K)*CHECK*

_NIS: _*EASY*
..... use the paddle mixer, throw the backpack on and go to town (nitrile gloves, sunglasses, hat, long pants, boots)....



I got done spraying the yard, triple rinsed my sprayer and changed clothes to go see my parents. On the way there I posted on TLF Discord a picture of my measurements that I had been writing down and that is when I realized we had an issue...



I noticed (as you might have seen right away) that the Celsius and MSM measurements were the same, even though the rates were supposed to be 10x different. I freak the f*ck out while my wife is driving. You hear all of these horror stories about people screwing up with MSM and think to yourself, "_That could never be me. I am smart. I have an engineering degree and use Excel all of the time. MSM is safe as long as you measure correctly._"

I look back at my phone where I did the conversion on Google and see this:



While riding in the car with my wife, I have just realized that I used 10x (*10 TIMES!!!*) the amount of MSM that I meant to use because of a damn decimal point that Google thought I added by mistake and I didn't double check

My mind goes immediately to the 50ft tall, 60+ year old pecan tree in my yard, then to the old Crepe Myrtle and the Little Gem Magnolia tree.... did I just kill everything? How long until they die? How long until my wife kills me when the leaves all start falling off mid-summer? Will I ever be able to lay sod or is my ground sterile for the next 20 years? Did I become an accidental Harvey Updyke? Will my house catch on fire? Will my wife divorce me?

I put down my phone and went for a 3mile walk to forget about it. When I got back, @Greendoc has told me to remove the top 24" of soil, put down 300#/K of activated carbon and have a funeral for my yard. @g-man has basically told me that I am a failure but to go mow/bag the yard ASAP. So that is what I did, 2 hours after spraying, I cut the SA/weeds at a notch lower than normal to at least cut something. _No we pray that things will work out_.

I have the security camera set up to take a picture at noon every day for the next 3 months to see how things progress. I still plan to level/fix irrigation/sand cap/sod some time in late May or June. I also applied for 2 jobs out of state in case the lawn doesn't recover and we need to move.

*TL;DR: *always double check your measurements when using pro-level herbicides. Don't even trust Google


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## david_ (Aug 22, 2019)

What does msm kill that glyphosate doesn't?

I have some in my closet unopened. Too afraid to use it.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@david_ The MSM was for the Liriope which has not died when I sprayed with Glyphosate before.... also it was all part of the old adage "_more is better_"


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## McDiddles (Feb 24, 2020)

That's an end all mix if I've ever seen one.


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## FedDawg555 (Mar 19, 2020)

Ole Harvey Updyke memories and his Spike 80, that was a interesting search warrant!


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## cutigers08 (Aug 16, 2019)

Would diluting or watering the crap out of the lawn help? (we are past that point now) I had a friend accidentally grab the wrong sprayer and accidentally spray his entire yard with glyphosate when he thought he was spraying pre-m. He realized immediately and freaked out. Somehow he talked the local volunteer fire department into dumping an entire tanker onto his lawn and it didn't all die.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@cutigers08 From talking to some ppl, watering it in will get it in to the soil where it will stay (depending on sand vs clay) for a long time and be bad news. I am in GA so there is some clay base about 6" deep.... Since it hasn't rained yet, and most of the spray is still on the leaf surface/been absorbed by the upper part of the plant, I might go scalp it to the dirt to remove the leaves before it rains tomorrow

Or maybe I won't and just ride it out with my fingers and toes crossed


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Scalp it / bag to try to get what ever is still attached to the leaves off. 10x MSM will make the soil sterile. It is bad.

Another option is to rent a sod cutter and remove the soil before the msm can travel too deep.

Another option is to also use activated charcoal.

Do all 3.

NASA did screwed up a unit conversion too and crashed the Mars Climate Orbiter.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Why why why  @seebryango

Man that mix was deadly potent. For all the new forums members that may read this there's no reason to mix so many chemicals at once. Just take your time


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## Chrisholmes02 (Jan 19, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> Why why why  @seebryango
> 
> Man that mix was deadly potent. For all the new forums members that may read this there's no reason to mix so many chemicals at once. Just take your time


I can attest to that. I mixed Quinclorac, 2,4D and Monument and it fried my bermuda. The Rescuegrass is still alive and kicking however. Next time I'll do one at a time.


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## Dangerlawn (Sep 13, 2018)

Isn't the issue under application on the Celsius? Your notes say 3.26 grams which you multiplied by 4 to get 13 grams, which is under 0.5 oz

Am I missing something?


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## Dangerlawn (Sep 13, 2018)

Oh I get it now... you wanted 0.5 oz per ACRE not for the 4,000 square foot I thought it was for...

Yeah I get it now.

I probably should not apply MSM any time soon myself either...


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

I haven't screwed things up too badly yet but as I get more and more comfortable (ie, faster) with mixing & spraying I can see how this can happen. Sorry this happened but thanks for sharing. It's a great reminder not to get ahead of ourselves.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Dangerlawn said:


> Oh I get it now... you wanted 0.5 oz per ACRE not for the 4,000 square foot I thought it was for...
> 
> Yeah I get it now.
> 
> I probably should not apply MSM any time soon myself either...


I have stayed away from MSM for that same reason. I don't trust my math and it is such a minute amount.


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## Dangerlawn (Sep 13, 2018)

Going back to the math...

0.5 oz is 14.175 grams (per acre)

Divide that by 43.56 to convert from acres to M

Which is 0.3254

Times 4 (for 4,000 square foot) is 1.3grams

So you did 3x the intended dose not 10x

Am I right?


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## Dangerlawn (Sep 13, 2018)

No I'm not right because you applied 13 grams not 3.26... man I am losing trust in my math so quickly


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## Bermuda_Triangle (Sep 20, 2019)

Can someone clue me in... I thought MSM is a weed killer. How does too much sterilize the soil?


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@Dangerlawn thanks for all the posts and keeping this thread towards the top of the forum.... lol. Math is hard sometimes

@Bermuda_Triangle The label states that MSM can be used to kill deciduous trees (trees that lose their leaves every year, i.e. Ash, Oak, etc) at high rates. It is used at high rates (in a combination of other products) by railroad and industrial site management companies for maintain bare ground conditions. Here is a link to a video by Matt Martin

///////

I mowed again yesterday (22 APR 2020) at the lowest that my rotary mower would go (1") to cut off as much of the leaf blades as possible. I was to the dirt in some areas. I was not about to rent a sod cutter and do 6+ hours of backbreaking work, nor was I going to put down 1000# of activated charcoal, nor was I going to get an excavator and remove 24" of soil and replace with $20,000 in sand.

Also, after doing some research last night, I read a paper from Cornell (_written in 1993_) that discusses the half-life of MSM in various soil types:



> The breakdown of metsulfuron-methyl in soils is largely dependant on soil temperature, moisture content, and pH. The chemical will degrade faster under acidic conditions, and in soils with higher moisture content and higher temperature. The chemical has a higher mobility potential in alkaline soils than in acidic soils, as it is more soluble under alkaline conditions. Metsulfuron-methyl is stable to photolysis, but will break down in ultraviolet light. Half-life estimates for metsulfuron-methyl in soil are wide ranging from 14 - 180 days, with an overall average of reported values of 30 days (8). Reported half-life values (in days) for soil include: clay - 178; sandy loam - 102; clay loam - 70, 14-28, 14-105; silty loam - 120- 180


My soil pH (according to a soil test done a month ago) is 5.7 (per UGA Extension Office) *OR* 6.4 (per WayPoint Analytical). Regardless, I have acidic soil, high moisture (spring rains), and clay soils.... all of which will help it break down. I am currently not too concerned but hope to never make this mistake again


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

For anyone interested, here is an article (published in 2010) I found about herbicide use to maintain power transmission right-of-ways. Link here

For those that want the cliff notes, they use:

2gal/ acre Accord XRT (50.2% glyphosate + surfactant)

25oz/acre Arsenal PowerLine (26.7% Imazapyr)

1oz/acre Escort (60% Metsulfuron-methyl) *---> same as what I used*

Garlon 3A (44.4% Tricolpyr, no rate given)


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

Wow! I killed off my common Bermuda last year with only Glycosphate over four applications, and spiked the last dose with a minuscule amount of soluble Nitrogen... I was worried that I overdid it and the sod I planned on putting down a month later would struggle to root in the soil with such a concoction. Hopefully your soil will recover before the year is over and you can get the lawn you desire.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Bermuda_Triangle said:


> Can someone clue me in... I thought MSM is a weed killer. How does too much sterilize the soil?


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## Mangy_turf (Apr 18, 2020)

Wow!! Sorry to hear that.
I have been sitting on a bottle of MSM for a year now. Was ready to mix and spray to rid my yard of Bahia. Had just enough doubt to pump the brakes after hearing about Martin's Topshot. I could easily see myself making that mistake. Couldn't find the Martin's product until this year so I battled the Bahia with frequent mows instead.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@Mangy_turf I have never heard of that product before. From looking at the label [HERE] it looks like a much safer way for homeowners to apply MSM.


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

Where in mid ga are you? I'm in Warner Robins and have a reel mower you can use to take it down low if you think it will help. May be too late though with the amount of rain coming in today.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@bp2878 I'm in Macon.... think it might be too late to scalp lower since it's already started raining.


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## Shuffinator (May 2, 2017)

We all live and learn! Hopefully everything works out in the end


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## Mangy_turf (Apr 18, 2020)

seebryango said:


> @Mangy_turf I have never heard of that product before. From looking at the label [HERE] it looks like a much safer way for homeowners to apply MSM.


I believe it is made for the diy'ers. Not sure where I initially heard or read of it, but it may have saved me the angst you are presently experiencing. Not the first or last time that will happen to someone. Sorry to hear about that. Hopefully the damage is minimal.


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## Thrownerdown (Sep 12, 2019)

Look at the bright side you won't have to mow for a loooong time &#128514;. Just throw down some gravel and potted plants.


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

@seebryango, I just now found this thread. Now I understand what you meant in your reply to my post about using a sod cutter to remove turf where you mentioned your little accident.
Man, I sure hope all works out. 🤞🏽


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## NewHomeOwner (Apr 11, 2020)

The lawn forum is playing the role of Paul Finenaum for the purposes of this story.

I appreciate the cautionary tale. I got a little over eager on my lawn renovation, and put down glyphosate with the intention of seeding arden 15. The only problem, TG who was servicing my lawn just laid down a second app of prodiamine two weeks before. The one thing my wife didn't want was a dust bowl for a lawn). I did find a company in cairo ga that can order highly concentrated activated charcoal if you want the info. Would've cost about $200.00 shipped.

Good Luck.


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## Groundskeeper Willie (Feb 22, 2019)

I did something similar the first time I used Prodiamine. Fortunately there was a very strong visual cue that something was wrong - when I started spraying the mix coming out looked like yellow latex paint. That stopped me quick. I tried to figure out where I'd screwed up - decimal place error or whatever I can't remember now. Then having reworked the numbers to figure out what concentration I had made, I decanted some of the mix into another tank and diluted it down to proper strength. I think it was still a little too strong, but we all survived and nobody grew a second head or gills or whatnot.


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## The_iHenry (Apr 23, 2019)

Update?


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## CTLawnNut (May 24, 2020)

I'll tack on with my MSM story to add to the burn. Before I really learned that label reading is a must, I accidentally applied .1 oz to two gallons of water instead of the .01 that was required. I wasn't aware of Matt's video yet and applied this stuff to try and rid my lawn of a garlic grass infestation on a tall fescue/rye mix lawn with a good spot spray. Well suffice to say, the garlic appears to be gone along with the rye. I'll really find out this fall. Reading the label a bit closer revealed that this stuff controls rye. I don't think I'll be using it again unless I have a death wish for my yard. This fall I"ll be doing an overseeding anyways so no biggie.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

The_iHenry said:


> Update?


I could post this picture and scare everyone that the $1300 in sod and 3 weeks of hard work that I put in to my reno has been totally wasted:



BUT....
Actually, the grass has grown in great and that picture was from when I scalped it from 2" down to 0.5" over the course of 3 mows in 22 hours. Here is what it looked like before then at 2 weeks after being put down:



The pecan tree is still alive, the crepe myrtle is still alive and growing, the magnolia tree is still alive and is covered in blossoms. Still taking it week by week but I remain hopeful


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

Also, I did a lot of research after that day in to the effects of high rates of MSM on Bermuda grass, pecan trees, magnolias, and crepe myrtles.... I was only able to find 1  paper that mentioned any of those at high rates. I emailed one of the authors (from UofArkansas) and got this response:



> Hey Bryan,
> 
> What a bummer! That is such an easy oversight. But those sorts of mistakes happen. I sure hope the trees can recover.
> 
> ...


So kind of a non-answer.... either everything will be fine, or it won't


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

MSM is a beast, I used it a few years back to kill Bahia grass. Everything got really sad after about 2 weeks after I sprayed it. It really stressed the bermuda and I used it at low rate. It killed the Bahia grass and I've never seen it again. MSM is a hell of a killer.


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## The_iHenry (Apr 23, 2019)

:thumbup: looks good.


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