# Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate | Liquid Iron for Lawns



## Mightyquinn

I've been using this solution for many years with pretty good success on my Tifway lawn. This stuff is similar to the Iron sprays you can buy but it is much cheaper to make it yourself and the products are easily available on eBay. Spraying this solution will help give your lawn a deeper darker green and will generally last a few weeks. This is what you will need.

Ferrous Sulfate(Iron)

Ammonium Sulfate

One of THESE will come in handy to mix it all together.

For every 1K of lawn you will want to mix 4oz of Ferrous Sulfate, 3.4oz of Ammonium Sulfate in 1 Gallon of water. I usually mix it in a 5 gallon bucket of HOT water as it will dissolve faster and easier than it will with cold water. In that 5 gallon bucket, I will mix everything for 8K of lawn in one shot and then dilute it in the sprayer tank.

You will want to spray this in the evening when it isn't as hot outside to reduce the chance of burning your lawn(I have never had an issue with it). You will want to leave it on your lawn for as long as you can. I usually spray it the night before my irrigation is set to go off. I have gotten into the habit of mixing this with my PGR app every 3 weeks as it seems to be perfect timing for applying the stuff.

I wouldn't worry about the 21-0-0 in the Ammonium Sulfate as you are applying such a small amount that it shouldn't have any effect on your overall Nitrogen applications. The Ammonium Sulfate is in the solution to help give it a faster and more intense green up and CAN be omitted if you choose. I have never sprayed without it so YMMV(Your Milage May Very).

*The Ferrous Sulfate is the MAIN ingredient for the dark green color.*

*The Ammonium Sulfate basically acts as a booster for the Ferrous Sulfate and will enhance/speed up the greening process.*

*Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate for every 1K of Bermuda Lawn*
4.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.8oz of Fe)
3.4 oz of Ammonium Sulfate
1 Gallon of Water(preferably Hot or Warm)

*Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate for every 1K of Cool Season Lawn*
2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.4oz of Fe)
1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate
1 Gallon of Water(preferably Hot or Warm)
Avoid the iron on the leaves in summer temperatures.

Edits: add cool season rates to avoid a black lawn.


----------



## GrassDaddy

Does this work for cool season lawns?


----------



## Mightyquinn

GrassDaddy said:


> Does this work for cool season lawns?


Yes, but since I don't have one, I can't say how well it will work. I think in the Spring and Fall for Cool Season grasses should be fine and I think KBG can take the same dosage as the Bermuda can. I would maybe start off with a half dose and work your way up to the full dose depending on the grass type and how "hardy" it is.


----------



## GrassDaddy

Hmm gonna have to try it out later in the year!


----------



## SGrabs33

Do you need to worry about these coloring/staining sidewalks/driveways like most other iron products?


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> Do you need to worry about these coloring/staining sidewalks/driveways like most other iron products?


Yes, It will stain a driveway or sidewalk just like any other Iron product. I have found that a pressure washer will remove any of the stains though.


----------



## j4c11

Mightyquinn said:


> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does this work for cool season lawns?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but since I don't have one, I can't say how well it will work. I think in the Spring and Fall for Cool Season grasses should be fine and I think KBG can take the same dosage as the Bermuda can. I would maybe start off with a half dose and work your way up to the full dose depending on the grass type and how "hardy" it is.
Click to expand...

Yes, it works great for cool season grasses. I use 3oz ferrous sulfate and 2.5 oz ammonium sulfate per thousand for KBG. Don't go much higher that that, it will burn the grass. Don't ask me how I know.


----------



## ericgautier

j4c11 said:


> Yes, it works great for cool season grasses. I use 3oz ferrous sulfate and 2.5 oz ammonium sulfate per thousand for KBG. Don't go much higher that that, it will burn the grass. Don't ask me how I know.


Do you usually water after applying?

I tried this once in combination w/ PGR, but, the grass looked sickly afterwards. I didn't try it again. I was very conservative with my rates too. I applied 2oz FS and 1.7 AS to my TTTF/KBG backyard. The PGR + FAS combo looked and smelled like orange soda. :lol:


----------



## j4c11

Since it's a foliar app, I do not water after applying unless there's a very hot day coming up(90+), in which case I water the following morning. I'd suggest cutting the rate in half if applying with PGR, so 1oz FS +0.85oz AS.


----------



## Alan

Mightyquinn said:


> I wouldn't worry about the 21-0-0 in the Ammonium Sulfate as you are applying such a small amount that it shouldn't have any effect on your overall Nitrogen applications. The Ammonium Sulfate is in the solution to help give it a faster and more intense green up and CAN be omitted if you choose. I have never sprayed without it so YMMV(Your Mileage May Very).


Hey MQ I'm a little confused by this last paragraph. If this solution is intended for a quick dark green up and as you say above, the AS is what does the greening part, then why would one choose to omit it? What does the FS(Iron) do? I need to get some 'pop' out of my grass, it's green, but far from a nice dark hunter green(and that's what I want).

TIA


----------



## Ware

Alan, I think what he is saying is to not worry about the 21% Nitrogen content of the Ammonium Sulfate - as you're not applying much of it by weight. In other words, there is no need to reduce your overall N applied via regular fertilizer applications because you are using FAS. Make sense?


----------



## Alan

Well, yes and no. I get the part about not worrying about the 21% nitrogen since it's in such a small amount it will nearly have zero effect on one's fertilizing schedule. However, what I don't get is if the AS does the greening part and per MQ that's what It achieves, then why omit it? Isn't that the purpose-to get the dark green? And if you do omit it, what does the FE do if applied alone?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ware said:


> Alan, I think what he is saying is to not worry about the 21% Nitrogen content of the Ammonium Sulfate - as you're not applying much of it by weight. In other words, there is no need to reduce your overall N applied via regular fertilizer applications because you are using FAS. Make sense?


Ware summed it up pretty good right there! The AS in the solution just helps to speed up/intensify the greening of the FS. It's basically a booster


----------



## Ware

I don't think he's saying to omit the Ammonium Sulfate. What he said was:

"I wouldn't worry about the 21-0-0 *in the* Ammonium Sulfate..."​


----------



## Alan

He does say you can omit it.

I suppose it would have been clearer to us novices if the purpose of each ingredient was explained. So here's my take away:

Ferrous Sulfate(Iron)- dark greening component

Ammonium Sulfate- booster to the above to increase efficiency uptake or improve performance.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Alan said:


> He does say you can omit it.
> 
> I suppose it would have been clearer to us novices if the purpose of each ingredient was explained. So here's my take away:
> 
> Ferrous Sulfate(Iron)- dark greening component
> 
> Ammonium Sulfate- booster to the above to increase efficiency uptake or improve performance.


I edited the original post to explain better. Sorry for the confusion on this


----------



## Ware

Alan said:


> He does say you can omit it...


Sorry, I did miss where he said "...and CAN be omitted..."


----------



## Alan

Mightyquinn said:


> I edited the original post to explain better. Sorry for the confusion on this


Thank you. I wasn't trying to pick apart your post, in fact, I appreciate it. :thumbup: I appreciate it more so now.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Alan said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I edited the original post to explain better. Sorry for the confusion on this
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I wasn't trying to pick apart your post, in fact, I appreciate it. :thumbup: I appreciate it more so now.
Click to expand...

No, Thank you Alan!! My intent was not to confuse anyone and anything I can do to help clarify anything, I am more than happy to oblige. :thumbup:


----------



## OState_Patriot

Could this be applied with a hose end Ortho sprayer?


----------



## j4c11

OState_Patriot said:


> Could this be applied with a hose end Ortho sprayer?


In my opinion, the Ortho sprayer has a spray pattern that is a bit too coarse. But it will work. The other problem you run into is you can only dissolve so much iron in 16-32 oz of water, so depending on your lawn size you would have to split it up into multiple apps. Using distilled or RO/DI water helps.


----------



## dfw_pilot

j4c11 said:


> RO/DI water


[hijack]
Aquarium enthusiast? 
[/hijack]


----------



## j4c11

dfw_pilot said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> RO/DI water
> 
> 
> 
> [hijack]
> Aquarium enthusiast?
> [/hijack]
Click to expand...

Lol, yes, I have a 55 gallon salt water.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Haha, cool - you'll need to start a thread on it. I researched the heck out of reef and marine tanks, but decided I wasn't home enough to support it.


----------



## Ware

j4c11 said:


> OState_Patriot said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could this be applied with a hose end Ortho sprayer?
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion, the Ortho sprayer has a spray pattern that is a bit too coarse...
Click to expand...

+1


----------



## Topcat

I did my first application of FAS Sunday afternoon. We had rain Monday, Tuesday and today. So far the results are amazing. The depth of green already has made this well worth the time and effort of spraying. I was supposed to throw down PGR, but was not sure I wanted to mix it in with the FAS after reading mixed reviews on mixing the two... and since we've rained the last three days, it will have to wait till tomorrow after I cut the lawn.

I REALLY need to get the PGR down, as it is really starting to take off.

+1 MQ, thanks for sharing...


----------



## Mightyquinn

Topcat said:


> I did my first application of FAS Sunday afternoon. We had rain Monday, Tuesday and today. So far the results are amazing. The depth of green already has made this well worth the time and effort of spraying. I was supposed to throw down PGR, but was not sure I wanted to mix it in with the FAS after reading mixed reviews on mixing the two... and since we've rained the last three days, it will have to wait till tomorrow after I cut the lawn.
> 
> I REALLY need to get the PGR down, as it is really starting to take off.
> 
> +1 MQ, thanks for sharing...


No problem Topcat!! I too just applied PGR+FAS tonight after work and right before we got .63" of rain. You can already tell a difference in the color of the lawn. Hopefully it will last after all this rain dries up.

I was able to get it on the lawn for about an hour before the rain so I should be good :thumbup:


----------



## SGrabs33

The longer FAS and PGR are in the blade the better, right? But as long as it dried before the rain it isn't wasted?


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> The longer FAS and PGR are in the blade the better, right? But as long as it dried before the rain it isn't wasted?


Yes, the longer the better but PGR just has to be on there for 20 minutes I think but I usually shoot for a minimum of 1 hour. For the FAS, it is definitely better the longer it's on the blades of grass and I usually try to shoot for overnight. So I don't know how long it will last this time. No big deal since I will be applying it again in 3 weeks. 

*EDIT*

Just checked the label on the PGR and it says it's rainfast after 1 hour.


----------



## lagerman72

With evening temps in the low 80's now until after dark, would it still be ok to spray this during those times? Typically put down my PGR apps around 7pm or so and would like to mix this in during that.


----------



## Mightyquinn

lagerman72 said:


> With evening temps in the low 80's now until after dark, would it still be ok to spray this during those times? Typically put down my PGR apps around 7pm or so and would like to mix this in during that.


Yes, you should be fine as I do the same thing. Bermuda is a little more tolerant of the temperatures when it comes to FAS.


----------



## lagerman72

Awesome, thanks!


----------



## j4c11

Please note that for FAS you are looking for Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate, not Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate which is not easily water soluble.


----------



## Mightyquinn

j4c11 said:


> Please note that for FAS you are looking for Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate, not Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate which is not easily water soluble.


Most of the Ferrous Sulfate on eBay for gardening is water soluble and I've never heard of anyone buying the Monohydrate.

What would you use Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate for?


----------



## j4c11

Mightyquinn said:


> Most of the Ferrous Sulfate on eBay for gardening is water soluble and I've never heard of anyone buying the Monohydrate.
> 
> What would you use Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate for?


I got a 50 lb bag of monohydrate at Green Resource a while back not knowing any better - just asked for ferrous sulfate, so I thought I'd put the info out there. The monohydrate has 30% iron and is great for soil applications, think Ironite. It helps quite a bit with color, but it can't be used in FAS.


----------



## lagerman72

So I may be way over thinking this but should I wait any amount of time after mowing before applying?


----------



## Ware

lagerman72 said:


> So I may be way over thinking this but should I wait any amount of time after mowing before applying?


I spray it with my PGR, which calls for waiting an hour after mowing to apply, so I use that schedule.


----------



## lagerman72

Ware said:


> lagerman72 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I may be way over thinking this but should I wait any amount of time after mowing before applying?
> 
> 
> 
> I spray it with my PGR, which calls for waiting an hour after mowing to apply, so I use that schedule.
Click to expand...

Perfect, thanks!


----------



## lagerman72

So say someone read this like 30 times and yet still managed to get the dosage wrong by thinking tiny amounts were needed (thinking Celcius).. Would you wait until the next PGR app to apply the correct dosage or would you go over it again to increase the EXTREMELY low amount that was applied? As soon as I was done and thinking how amazing I was for using 2 gallons exactly on 2k/sqft I realized my mistake. :no:

dats embarrasing


----------



## j4c11

lagerman72 said:


> So say someone read this like 30 times and yet still managed to get the dosage wrong by thinking tiny amounts were needed (thinking Celcius).. Would you wait until the next PGR app to apply the correct dosage or would you go over it again to increase the EXTREMELY low amount that was applied? As soon as I was done and thinking how amazing I was for using 2 gallons exactly on 2k/sqft I realized my mistake. :no:
> dats embarrasing


If you basically just sprayed water you can go over it again.


----------



## Ware

Yeah, I would just mix it up and give it another go. I only tank mix it with my PGR for convenience.


----------



## dfw_pilot

There are those who have and those who will.

I agree that another dose won't hurt.


----------



## lagerman72

Ware said:


> Yeah, I would just mix it up and give it another go. I only tank mix it with my PGR for convenience.





dfw_pilot said:


> There are those who have and those who will.
> 
> I agree that another dose won't hurt.





j4c11 said:


> If you basically just sprayed water you can go over it again.


Thanks all, I'll do that later tonight. You can see how long it took me to ask that as I was on all day. Oh well, another lesson learned. ha!!


----------



## SGrabs33

I am on the fence about trying this out. My main issue right now is our current temps. We are in the high 80s/low 90s pretty much every day now. I know you don't want to leave the mixture on during those high temps, right? So, if I need to water it in relatively soon after application will I still get a worthwhile benefit of using the products(mixed with PGR)?


----------



## Ware

SGrabs33 said:


> I am on the fence about trying this out. My main issue right now is our current temps. We are in the high 80s/low 90s pretty much every day now. I know you don't want to leave the mixture on during those high temps, right? So, if I need to water it in relatively soon after application will I still get a worthwhile benefit of using the products(mixed with PGR)?


I think you would be fine - if you're worried you could spray the PGR + FAS in the evening and then run the sprinklers later that night. Or you could always reduce the concentration and slowly build up to see how it goes.


----------



## SGrabs33

Ware said:


> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am on the fence about trying this out. My main issue right now is our current temps. We are in the high 80s/low 90s pretty much every day now. I know you don't want to leave the mixture on during those high temps, right? So, if I need to water it in relatively soon after application will I still get a worthwhile benefit of using the products(mixed with PGR)?
> 
> 
> 
> I think you would be fine - if you're worried you could spray the PGR + FAS in the evening and then run the sprinklers later that night. Or you could always reduce the concentration and slowly build up to see how it goes.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I wouldn't be as worried if I had sprinklers  Unfortunately I would be hand watering post spray. Concentration thought is a good idea, thanks again.


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> I am on the fence about trying this out. My main issue right now is our current temps. We are in the high 80s/low 90s pretty much every day now. I know you don't want to leave the mixture on during those high temps, right? So, if I need to water it in relatively soon after application will I still get a worthwhile benefit of using the products(mixed with PGR)?


I have always sprayed it during this time of year without any issues but I generally spray it in the evening and water it in the following morning but since you don't have irrigation you may still be ok with all the dew we generally get in the morning here. It may help dilute it some, worst case I think you may get some "rust" on the lawn but it should go away after a few days. I think it's just something you have to play around with and see what works in your particular situation.


----------



## SGrabs33

Ok, I took the bait. Just ordered it and hope to be applying with PGR next week.


----------



## SGrabs33

SGrabs33 said:


> Ok, I took the bait. Just ordered it and hope to be applying with PGR next week.


The bags are a little heavy when compared to my usual foliar app, Celsius.


----------



## wardconnor

SGrabs33 said:


> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I took the bait. Just ordered it and hope to be applying with PGR next week.
> 
> 
> 
> The bags are a little heavy when compared to my usual foliar app, Celsius.
Click to expand...

Would you kindly take close up pics of the 21-0-0 granulars and the label? Im trying to decide/investigate if that 21-0-0 is any different than the 21-0-0 that I have sitting in my garage. I would prefer not to rebuy if it's not necessary.


----------



## J_nick

wardconnor said:


> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I took the bait. Just ordered it and hope to be applying with PGR next week.
> 
> 
> 
> The bags are a little heavy when compared to my usual foliar app, Celsius.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you kindly take close up pics of the 21-0-0 granulars and the label? Im trying to decide/investigate if that 21-0-0 is any different than the 21-0-0 that I have sitting in my garage. I would prefer not to rebuy if it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

If you click on the picture once Postimg comes up you can zoom in on it. At least it does on my iPhone 6+


----------



## SGrabs33

wardconnor said:


> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I took the bait. Just ordered it and hope to be applying with PGR next week.
> 
> 
> 
> The bags are a little heavy when compared to my usual foliar app, Celsius.
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Would you kindly take close up pics of the 21-0-0 granulars and the label? Im trying to decide/investigate if that 21-0-0 is any different than the 21-0-0 that I have sitting in my garage. I would prefer not to rebuy if it's not necessary.
Click to expand...

Here is one of the label.



Here is one of the granulates from the ebay site.



Let me know if these don't work and I can try and take another tonight.


----------



## wardconnor

Thanks. I'll compare the labels when I get home from vacation. I think its the same. My granulars are like stark white. Those look smaller and less white more opaque


----------



## Pete1313

I use spray grade ammonium sulfate(looks like what is pictured above) and used to use fertilizer grade. Both worked fine, except the fertilizer grade left some undissoved pieces so mix in a bucket first and be careful when transferring to the spray tank.


----------



## SGrabs33

I sprayed for the first time tonight at the rates MQ advised. We will see!


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> I sprayed for the first time tonight at the rates MQ advised. We will see!


How did the spraying go?


----------



## SGrabs33

Mightyquinn said:


> How did the spraying go?


it went ok. I don't think I'll really see the benefits until next time I spray. Just getting the hang of it this time. I only was spraying my back yard which doesn't have contact with concrete. I incorrectly measured the amount of water so I had quite a bit left over(under apply FAS). Also, my yard wasn't fully recovered from the scalp.

Hopefully the next time will better.


----------



## vnephologist

Hey guys - I was contemplating adding FAS to my regimen and stumbled across "Sugar Iron." I'm generally a big fan of the T-Growth products and their retail Simple Success line is in good quantities for those with small lawns like me. It also indicates that it is non-staining, but that may just be because the quantity of iron?


----------



## SGrabs33

vnephologist said:


> Hey guys - I was contemplating adding FAS to my regimen and stumbled across "Sugar Iron." I'm generally a big fan of the T-Growth products and their retail Simple Success line is in good quantities for those with small lawns like me. It also indicates that it is non-staining, but that may just be because the quantity of iron?


FYI it does indicate that it can stain "Cautions: Avoid concrete and stone surfaces as iron products may stain." It does say no burn.

Some of the experts will have to give their take.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

SGrabs33 said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did the spraying go?
> 
> 
> 
> it went ok. I don't think I'll really see the benefits until next time I spray. Just getting the hang of it this time. I only was spraying my back yard which doesn't have contact with concrete. I incorrectly measured the amount of water so I had quite a bit left over(under apply FAS). Also, my yard wasn't fully recovered from the scalp.
> 
> Hopefully the next time will better.
Click to expand...

So, was curious to see what your results were SGrabs33. Also, does anyone have any without/with pictures for comparison sake? I've got about another month or two of growing time in my area. TBH, I can't remember the last time it was really cold during Nov/Dec here.

I'd like to see if this would be worth my time/dinero. Also, is there anyone who might be willing to part with 2# of each product, to give it a try if I send you some $$ via PayPal? That would be enough to give it a try for 2 months.


----------



## SGrabs33

Colonel K0rn said:


> SGrabs33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> How did the spraying go?
> 
> 
> 
> it went ok. I don't think I'll really see the benefits until next time I spray. Just getting the hang of it this time. I only was spraying my back yard which doesn't have contact with concrete. I incorrectly measured the amount of water so I had quite a bit left over(under apply FAS). Also, my yard wasn't fully recovered from the scalp.
> 
> Hopefully the next time will better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, was curious to see what your results were SGrabs33. Also, does anyone have any without/with pictures for comparison sake? I've got about another month or two of growing time in my area. TBH, I can't remember the last time it was really cold during Nov/Dec here.
> 
> I'd like to see if this would be worth my time/dinero. Also, is there anyone who might be willing to part with 2# of each product, to give it a try if I send you some $$ via PayPal? That would be enough to give it a try for 2 months.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the yard has been put on the back burner for the past few months so I never got around to the 2nd application. Maybe I will try it again in a few weeks with some Prodiamine.


----------



## Tellycoleman

Does anyone have a good idea for resealing the bags. It looks like Mylar bags???


----------



## Ware

Tellycoleman said:


> Does anyone have a good idea for resealing the bags. It looks like Mylar bags???


I got this idea from MQ, but I premix (weigh) mine into gallon Ziploc® bags. It takes a little time up front, but when I'm ready to spray my yard all I have to do is grab a bag and mix it with water. :thumbup:


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Forgive me if it's been said already and I missed it but, do you mix a surfactant into this mixture being it's a foliar app? I'm thinking of trying this next year with pgr to try and get the best colour I can. Also just to confirm the mix ratio is 3oz ferrous sulfate and 2.5 oz ammonium sulfate for cool season grass correct? Thanks.


----------



## Pete1313

I use a surfactant. I have used 3 oz/M of FS with 2.5 oz/M of AS and I have also used 4 oz/M of FS mixed with 3.4 oz/M of AS without any issues. The 4oz FS/3.4oz AS was on bewitched KBG only. The 3oz FS/2.5oz AS was on bewitched KBG as well as a 20 year old northern Mix lawn.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Awesome, thank you Pete. I'm looking forward to giving this a try next spring.


----------



## crunk

I just put this down at the 4oz, 3.4oz per 1000 rate. I also mixed in 3 quarts of Diesel exhaust fluid, which I think is about 1/2 pound of nitrogen via urea, and about 1/4 cup of humic acid powder. I'm watering it in now the solution has been down for about 12 hours. My grass is a mix of different fescues and KBG. I aerated and overseeded September 13th and am hoping its not too much for the young grass. Thanks for the recipe.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.

Irony in Iron

I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.


----------



## vnephologist

Yeah, I've been using a glucoheptonate chelate product myself. I have a small lawn, so not sure how expensive it may be for others with larger areas to cover. I also found this presentation helpful in my research...

https://fluidfertilizer.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Vatren-Jurin.pdf


----------



## Mightyquinn

vnephologist said:


> Yeah, I've been using a glucoheptonate chelate product myself. I have a small lawn, so not sure how expensive it may be for others with larger areas to cover. I also found this presentation helpful in my research...
> 
> https://fluidfertilizer.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/Vatren-Jurin.pdf


Maybe I'm just a simple man but that is way too technical for me :lol:


----------



## Movingshrub

I feel like I am missing something so I apologize if this has already been addressed.

Are you mixing a special type of ammonium sulfate or are you just taking granular ammonium sulfate + urea mix (like the 34-0-0 bags I can get a the coop) and mixing it with water?

Why would I want to spray ammonium sulfate versus applying granular? This seems like an extra step, or is the main goal just to get the iron applied, and the N source is being used to encourage the iron uptake?

I've got a sprayer. I've got urea + ammonium sulfgrate granular blend. I've got water. Why would I want to spray rather than just putting it into a broadcast spreader?

@Mightyquinn - Would you be willing to clarify your approach?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Movingshrub said:


> I feel like I am missing something so I apologize if this has already been addressed.
> 
> Are you mixing a special type of ammonium sulfate or are you just taking granular ammonium sulfate + urea mix (like the 34-0-0 bags I can get a the coop) and mixing it with water?
> 
> Why would I want to spray ammonium sulfate versus applying granular? This seems like an extra step, or is the main goal just to get the iron applied, and the N source is being used to encourage the iron uptake?
> 
> I've got a sprayer. I've got urea + ammonium sulfgrate granular blend. I've got water. Why would I want to spray rather than just putting it into a broadcast spreader?
> 
> @Mightyquinn - Would you be willing to clarify your approach?


Sorry, I don't know how I missed this and I apologize!

I just used regular granular Ammonium Sulfate(21-0-0) with the Ferrous Sulfate. The AS just kind of kicks the Ferrous Sulfate up a notch and isn't intended to be used for fertilizing/feeding the plant any Nitrogen and shouldn't be factored into your monthly inputs at all. Straight AS(21-0-0) and Urea(46-0-0) will easily dissolve in water.

Did this answer your question or are you referring to fertilizing with AS or Urea?


----------



## Movingshrub

@Mightyquinn 
I totally understand including the AS to help the Ferrous sulfate.

Just to make sure I'm 100% clear, you're using Ammonium Sulfate, that could be spread via a broadcast or drop spreader, and instead dissolving it into water and then spraying that water + fert + iron sulfate mixture? I was trying to determine if you had purchased a unique type of ammonium sulfate that's designed to be dissolved and sprayed, such as a wettable powder.

I was trying to determine if you were using the spray Ammonium Sulfate in lieu of a granular application, and it sounds like you still applying granular fert of some type.

I had made the assumption you were opting out entirely on granular fert and were doing spray apps of all your nitrogen.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Movingshrub said:


> @Mightyquinn
> I totally understand including the AS to help the Ferrous sulfate.
> 
> Just to make sure I'm 100% clear, you're using Ammonium Sulfate, that could be spread via a broadcast or drop spreader, and instead dissolving it into water and then spraying that water + fert + iron sulfate mixture? I was trying to determine if you had purchased a unique type of ammonium sulfate that's designed to be dissolved and sprayed, such as a wettable powder.
> 
> I was trying to determine if you were using the spray Ammonium Sulfate in lieu of a granular application, and it sounds like you still applying granular fert of some type.
> 
> I had made the assumption you were opting out entirely on granular fert and were doing spray apps of all your nitrogen.


You are correct in assuming that I have opted out of ALL granular fertilizer this year (except for one application of 22-0-16 that I still have left over). I am also going a different route with the iron too and will no longer be using FAS but something similar and more stable.

Just to make sure, almost all AS(21-0-0) and Urea(46-0-0) are water soluble and will almost instantly dissolve in tap water(the warmer it is the faster it will dissolve). You can try it for yourself, just fill a bucket up with a gallon of water and pour a pound of fertilizer and watch it dissolve, it may require a little mixing to get it all to dissolve though.


----------



## Movingshrub

Mightyquinn said:


> You are correct in assuming that I have opted out of ALL granular fertilizer this year.


Thanks MQ. I think the only question I have unanswered is - *Why* did you do opt for liquid application of your fertilizer versus granular?

Ability to mix into other sprays applications?
Avoid prill size being an issue?
Easier to spoon feed small amounts vs using a slow release PCU or SCU?
Ability to get out of the house?
Mixing with PGR application?
Faster uptake?

Using a granular spreader seems really easy. Mixing fert into water and spraying seems a bit more involved. I don't understand why someone would want to do that.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Movingshrub said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct in assuming that I have opted out of ALL granular fertilizer this year.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks MQ. I think the only question I have unanswered is - *Why* did you do opt for liquid application of your fertilizer versus granular?
> 
> Ability to mix into other sprays applications?
> Avoid prill size being an issue?
> Easier to spoon feed small amounts vs using a slow release PCU or SCU?
> Ability to get out of the house?
> Mixing with PGR application?
> Faster uptake?
> 
> Using a granular spreader seems really easy. Mixing fert into water and spraying seems a bit more involved. I don't understand why someone would want to do that.
Click to expand...

Let's see if I can answer your questions 

*Ability to mix into other sprays applications?* Yes, I'm already going to be spraying at least 2 times a month(PGR and Insecticide/Wetting Agent) so why not just throw some fertilizer in there while I'm at it.

*Avoid prill size being an issue?* Yes and no, the little fertilizer I do have is SGN 145 which is pretty small but I have never really been happy with granular fertilizer and the ability to get a nice even coverage.

*Easier to spoon feed small amounts vs using a slow release PCU or SCU?* Yes, since I will be applying PGR at least every 3 weeks once the season starts, it's a no brainer to apply my fertilizer at the same time and be able to adjust how much or how little I apply. I can pretty much custom mix any ratio that I need. Also, as great as slow release fertilizer is, it's not always optimal and as low as I cut my lawn, those PCU or SCU granular's just sit on top of the grass and either get broken(which negates their slow release capabilities) from the mower and since I tend to collect my clippings and use my groomer, I would be collecting a portion of the fertilizer I just applied.

*Ability to get out of the house?* LOL!! I will already be out in the lawn :thumbup:

*Mixing with PGR application?* Yes as stated above

*Faster uptake?* Yes, theoretically I should get an initial boost the day after spraying it and then get the residual effects after it is washed off the blades.

I completely understand where you are coming from and although it seems like extra work it's actually less work as I will no long have to remove my sprayer from the spreader(which actually isn't that difficult  ) and since I am already spraying it's just a matter of mixing in the extra ingredients. Since this is my first year, I know there will be some trial and error going into it but it's nothing I can't overcome. For me and my situation it just makes everything a lot easier and more efficient in the log run not to mention a lot cheaper since I already have about a 2-3 year supply of fertilizer except for the Potassium and Iron.


----------



## Movingshrub

Thanks MQ. You covered all my questions!


----------



## kolbasz

In your first post you mention mixing all in 1 shot.

I assume you mean in the 4 gallons you have 8k worth of product. Then when it comes to applying, you cut the mixed 4 gallons, in the spayer with water to make it be for 8k.

So if 4 gallons mixed is 8k, and you need 8gallons to spray the yard you use 2 add 2 clean.

In the end it is like buying a concentrate we always use and mixing it with the Carrier.

Does this require a special sprayer? You say frankensprayer so I didn't know if that was code for dedicated pgr + FAS sprayer


----------



## Mightyquinn

This is the Franken-Sprayer-Mate that I was referring to in the post.

What I usually do is mix the solution for 8K of lawn in about 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket and then mix it up really well with a Paint Mixer and then pour it into the tank. Then I will add just plain water to the tank to get the required amount of solution needed which is usually 8 gallons for my 8K of lawn. I will also run the paint mixer in the tank one last time before I start to make sure everything is mixed up well. If you are using a backpack sprayer, you would of course have to adjust your amount of solution to add.


----------



## kolbasz

Mightyquinn said:


> This is the Franken-Sprayer-Mate that I was referring to in the post.
> 
> What I usually do is mix the solution for 8K of lawn in about 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket and then mix it up really well with a Paint Mixer and then pour it into the tank. Then I will add just plain water to the tank to get the required amount of solution needed which is usually 8 gallons for my 8K of lawn. I will also run the paint mixer in the tank one last time before I start to make sure everything is mixed up well. If you are using a backpack sprayer, you would of course have to adjust your amount of solution to add.


Ok, thanks. Makes sense. I would likely mix 4 gallons at s time then.


----------



## kolbasz

Mightyquinn said:


> This is the Franken-Sprayer-Mate that I was referring to in the post.
> 
> What I usually do is mix the solution for 8K of lawn in about 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket and then mix it up really well with a Paint Mixer and then pour it into the tank. Then I will add just plain water to the tank to get the required amount of solution needed which is usually 8 gallons for my 8K of lawn. I will also run the paint mixer in the tank one last time before I start to make sure everything is mixed up well. If you are using a backpack sprayer, you would of course have to adjust your amount of solution to add.


Super silly question, does it matter the paint mixer size? Was at Lowe's, they have a plastic vortex mixer, a metal 5 gallon and a metal 1-5 gallon. All of which have varying sizes paddles.


----------



## Mightyquinn

kolbasz said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the Franken-Sprayer-Mate that I was referring to in the post.
> 
> What I usually do is mix the solution for 8K of lawn in about 4 gallons of water in a 5 gallon bucket and then mix it up really well with a Paint Mixer and then pour it into the tank. Then I will add just plain water to the tank to get the required amount of solution needed which is usually 8 gallons for my 8K of lawn. I will also run the paint mixer in the tank one last time before I start to make sure everything is mixed up well. If you are using a backpack sprayer, you would of course have to adjust your amount of solution to add.
> 
> 
> 
> Super silly question, does it matter the paint mixer size? Was at Lowe's, they have a plastic vortex mixer, a metal 5 gallon and a metal 1-5 gallon. All of which have varying sizes paddles.
Click to expand...

I don't think it really matters as all you are mixing up is water based products. I would go with the vortex mixer myself if I was doing it all over again :thumbup:


----------



## kolbasz

Essentially this one, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000I210I6/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_2mBUAbJX8AJ70 vs this one https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N6U1M8Y/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_joBUAbC1DN0YZ


----------



## Mightyquinn

I would go with the red one. I currently have the other all steel one that I have been using for years and it works just fine. Something about the red plastic just seems a little safer to me.


----------



## kolbasz

It does seem more garden plastic tank sprayer esque


----------



## kolbasz

just doing some reading. Will this/can this stain my driveway? If so, how does one apply at the perimeter so as to avoid staining the driveway, sidewalk and front walkway?


----------



## Browdis

What is the general consensus on FAS + PGR?

Seems like there are mixed opinions?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Browdis said:


> What is the general consensus on FAS + PGR?
> 
> Seems like there are mixed opinions?


I always sprayed FAS with my PGR as it seemed to give it an extra kick of green.


----------



## stotea

kolbasz said:


> just doing some reading. Will this/can this stain my driveway? If so, how does one apply at the perimeter so as to avoid staining the driveway, sidewalk and front walkway?


Yes, it can/will stain. You just need to be as careful and precise as possible and don't spray when windy. Use a pressure washer or something to clean up, if needed.


----------



## kolbasz

stotea said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> just doing some reading. Will this/can this stain my driveway? If so, how does one apply at the perimeter so as to avoid staining the driveway, sidewalk and front walkway?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it can/will stain. You just need to be as careful and precise as possible and don't spray when windy. Use a pressure washer or something to clean up, if needed.
Click to expand...

but ultimately, it can be cleaned if needed with a little pressure washing?


----------



## stotea

kolbasz said:


> stotea said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> just doing some reading. Will this/can this stain my driveway? If so, how does one apply at the perimeter so as to avoid staining the driveway, sidewalk and front walkway?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, it can/will stain. You just need to be as careful and precise as possible and don't spray when windy. Use a pressure washer or something to clean up, if needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> but ultimately, it can be cleaned if needed with a little pressure washing?
Click to expand...

That's what I've heard, yes.


----------



## dsotm

Do you think the stirrer is actually necessary? I did a gallon yesterday and it seemed like hand shaking got it completely mixed.


----------



## Ware

dsotm said:


> Do you think the stirrer is actually necessary? I did a gallon yesterday and it seemed like hand shaking got it completely mixed.


Probably not for a gallon. Many of us mix much larger batches though.


----------



## Killbuzz

I just ordered my batch. I'll take some before and after pics.


----------



## Ballistic

I prefer to order on amazon, are these the two same thing needed?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Yes


----------



## Ballistic

Got everything in to start spraying, but i have a few questions.

1. Does the grass need to be pretty dry to apply this? (We have had lots of rain this week and still going but starting to dry out)

2. Is it safe to apply once a month as long as its not super hot? (EX below 80s for few days before and after application)

3. Does it matter when the lawn was cut?

Thanks in advanced!


----------



## Mightyquinn

1. Preferably it needs to be dry as it will be more effective the longer it can stay on the leaf blade.

2. Yes, you should be fine. I have found it best to apply in the late evening and wash it in with irrigation the next morning. It's not something you want sitting on the leaf for days at a time. After a few hours, the grass will have absorbed all it can.

3. Not in my experience but I usually try to spray soon after a mow.


----------



## M311att

Silly question.....is the recipe in oz by volume or weight?


----------



## Mightyquinn

M311att said:


> Silly question.....is the recipe in oz by volume or weight?


Weight!!


----------



## Ballistic

Good thing i only did one section of the lawn, i mixed 2 gallons of this mix in volume. Ill have to get a scale now. Figured it was measured the same way my liquids are measured.

On the plus side i was flying the drone yesterday and my lawn is definitely greener than anyone else's.

Thanks, for asking M311att.


----------



## M311att

Thank you.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ballistic said:


> Good thing i only did one section of the lawn, i mixed 2 gallons of this mix in volume. Ill have to get a scale now. Figured it was measured the same way my liquids are measured.
> 
> On the plus side i was flying the drone yesterday and my lawn is definitely greener than anyone else's.
> 
> Thanks, for asking M311att.


Just FYI when it comes to mixing stuff for the lawn, if it's liquid then measure it in FLUID oz and if it's a granular form it's measured in WEIGHT oz even if you are putting it into a solution(water normally).


----------



## gardencityboy

@Mightyquinn I finally decided to go with the FAS route. Yesterday I applied the recommended rate with PGR in the evening and set the irrigation to water in the morning. 
When I observe the lawn in the morning I can see some light black patches, we can see them only from far. Is that due to burning? Do you see this in your applications? 
One mistake I did was not use a marking dye and may have applied twice in some areas.


----------



## Mightyquinn

The black spots are just probably from over application and should go away in a week or two. I have gotten it occasionally when I was heavy handed with it


----------



## gardencityboy

ok thanks


----------



## Cory

Applied this last Wednesday, May 9th at the recommended rate and haven't done anything else but water and mow. Saturday I started noticing seed heads popping up and today there are a ton of them all over. Any chance the AS or Iron could have made them come up?


----------



## cnet24

@Cory doubtful, it's just that time of year where bermuda goes to seed. I just went through the same scenario with my lawn in Georgia- it should be present for a few weeks and then go away.

Side note- When I first was getting into lawn care, I saw this and thought Great! I'll never have to overseed my lawn! :lol:


----------



## cnet24

Mightyquinn said:


> I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.
> 
> Irony in Iron
> 
> I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.


@Mightyquinn any update with the new iron products? I'm pricing this out now and thinking of ordering to add to my PGR apps. With 7k sq ft of lawn, the bulkier the better for me.


----------



## Mightyquinn

cnet24 said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.
> 
> Irony in Iron
> 
> I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.
> 
> 
> 
> @Mightyquinn any update with the new iron products? I'm pricing this out now and thinking of ordering to add to my PGR apps. With 7k sq ft of lawn, the bulkier the better for me.
Click to expand...

I think it's still too early to tell one way or the other. You may want to give FEature 6-0-0 a look as it's a little more cost effective. I have yet to use it though


----------



## Ware

https://youtu.be/2WOHhKSPL8Y


----------



## Richard Slater

Doing a bit of mind-bending maths here in that I use the metric system.

A couple of "facts" to start off with, shout out if my maths is wrong:

1. I have a 21m² lawn.
2. 1000ft² is roughly equal to 92m².
3. There are 28.3 grams to an ounce.
4. There are 3800ml in 1 US Gallon.

Given my lawn area (21m²) I have a divisor of 4.38 on the per 1000ft² figure, therefore I need:
FS: 4oz / 4.38 = 0.91oz = 26g
AS: 3.8oz / 4/38 = 0.88oz = 24.5g

Now Given I have PRG, I'm going to go for a half dose...
FS: 13g
AS: 12g

And dilute this in 900ml of hot water... planning on doing this tomorrow evening, shout out if I am of the mark.


----------



## SGrabs33

Ware said:


>


Nice video!

I see you are not exactly avoiding your curbs with the FAS. Do you not get much staining or what's your tactic?


----------



## Cory

Does anyone else take at least double the time to spray this on vs anything else or is it just something I'm doing wrong. The big section of my front yard is 4,500 sqft, I usually just round down to 4,000 since part of it that didn't get sod from the builder and is still dirt. Normally with any other application I only have to go over it once and the backpack is empty. With the FAS I have to go over it 3 or 4 times untill the tank is empty. I use my chapin 4g backpack and have the red tee jet tip on it. I mixed it with hot water like suggested, maybe I'm not mixing it long enough?


----------



## Ral1121

Cory said:


> Does anyone else take at least double the time to spray this on vs anything else or is it just something I'm doing wrong. The big section of my front yard is 4,500 sqft, I usually just round down to 4,000 since part of it that didn't get sod from the builder and is still dirt. Normally with any other application I only have to go over it once and the backpack is empty. With the FAS I have to go over it 3 or 4 times untill the tank is empty. I use my chapin 4g backpack and have the red tee jet tip on it. I mixed it with hot water like suggested, maybe I'm not mixing it long enough?


Do you mix it in the chapin or do you mix it in a bucket and poor it into the chapin. Reason being there could be particles clogging your sprayer a bit. I mix in a bucket because there are always some particles that don't desolve at the bottom. That way they are not in my backpt sprayer tank.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ral1121 said:


> Cory said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone else take at least double the time to spray this on vs anything else or is it just something I'm doing wrong. The big section of my front yard is 4,500 sqft, I usually just round down to 4,000 since part of it that didn't get sod from the builder and is still dirt. Normally with any other application I only have to go over it once and the backpack is empty. With the FAS I have to go over it 3 or 4 times untill the tank is empty. I use my chapin 4g backpack and have the red tee jet tip on it. I mixed it with hot water like suggested, maybe I'm not mixing it long enough?
> 
> 
> 
> Do you mix it in the chapin or do you mix it in a bucket and poor it into the chapin. Reason being there could be particles clogging your sprayer a bit. I mix in a bucket because there are always some particles that don't desolve at the bottom. That way they are not in my backpt sprayer tank.
Click to expand...

+1 :thumbup: My sprayer has a built in strainer so it will get a lot of the junk before it makes it to the nozzles but with sprayers that don't have that you could use an old/new flour sifter like THESE to catch any debris that didn't dissolve.


----------



## Cory

@Ral1121 @Mightyquinn I mixed it in a separate bucket. The backpack has a strainer basket but the iron flakes that is left in the bucket could easily flow through it. I'll try a mesh strainer next time. Thanks guys :thumbup:


----------



## Ridgerunner

Has anyone experimented with adding FAS to Humic acid? I wonder if there would be any improvement of the soil Fe availability due to the chelating characteristics of the humic/fulvic acids.


----------



## Ral1121

Ridgerunner said:


> Has anyone experimented with adding FAS to Humic acid? I wonder if there would be any improvement of the soil Fe availability due to the chelating characteristics of the humic/fulvic acids.


I have tried and found out that the humic/fulvic I have does not mix well with anything with iron. I get little flakes/particles of iron showing up. I use extreme blend from kelp4less so I can only speak about that product.


----------



## Ridgerunner

> I have tried and found out that the humic/fulvic I have does not mix well with anything with iron. I get little flakes/particles of iron showing up. I use extreme blend from kelp4less so I can only speak about that product.


Thanks.
I don't know enough about the science (how the humic subsance's carboxyl, hydroxyl, carboxylate and phenolate groups form and work) to really say, but I would imagine the pH of the product might have a significant role in chelation. That product is listed as having a pH between 4 and 6. Not sure if it's related, but CEC increases as the pH of OM raises.
Just kicking a thought around.


----------



## Jconnelly6b

I just ordered the ingredients for this, and was planning a liquid app combined with Humic 12 and insecticide. Any thoughts?

Insecticide is Mavrik Perimeter.
https://www.domyown.com/mavrik-perimeter-p-429.html


----------



## zeus201

I thought about using that one over Talstar P to keep the bees alive. Reading through the Q&A, residual effectiveness is not as long as Talstar, so re-application will be necessary.


----------



## Green

Mightyquinn said:


> *Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate for every 1K of Lawn*
> 4.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate
> 3.4 oz of Ammonium Sulfate
> 1 Gallon of Water(preferably Hot or Warm)


I've been spraying it at a much lower rate, but the same proportions of Ammonium sulfate to Iron.

For yesterday's app, I decided to add a bit more Ammonium Sulfate to reach the 0.05 lb/M of Nitrogen level for some extra N.

Seems to have worked just fine.


----------



## kur1j

@Mightyquinn So I've been researching a lot about these iron products. I really want to get FEature but can't seem to find it in stock anywhere. I have a few basic questions and a few general questions about the different products I've found from searching online and other members.

1. I see that there are EDTA, HEDTA, DTPA, LPCA and EDDHA chelating agents. I see that FEature utilizes two of them (EDDHA, EDTA). Is this significant having both? Which one should I look to get? It seems that in most products there is only one.
2. Something appealing to me in FEature is the advertisement of "non-staining". What makes them non-staining? I see a lot of the Iron products with EDDHA, EDTA and don't mention "non-staining".

Here are the products I have found that are similar to FEature and alternatives to the FAS that you mentioned might be alternatives.

Micronutrients combos -

1. FEature
2. Axilo Mix 5 (0-0-0) EDTA
3. Minor Elements Soluble Nutritional - 25 lbs 
4.  Main Event Dry Iron  - This is probably the closes to FEature I could find. 
5. ZMC Express EDTA Chelated Micronutrients
6.  Brexil Multi 

Iron only -

1.  Sequestrene 330 Fe Chelated Iron Sprint 330 (DTPA) - You mentioned this as Sprint 330 Fe  in one of your posts in this thread.
2.  Sequestrene 138 Fe - EDDHA chelated. Same as Sprint 138
3.  Brexil Fe 10%  - LPCA chelated. 
4.  ROOTS Fe-8  Not sure of Chelating agent.

I'm sure I've missed some that I've seen ran across and forgotten about but these are the ones I remember and found links for.


----------



## Mightyquinn

kur1j said:


> @Mightyquinn So I've been researching a lot about these iron products. I really want to get FEature but can't seem to find it in stock anywhere. I have a few basic questions and a few general questions about the different products I've found from searching online and other members.
> 
> 1. I see that there are EDTA, HEDTA, DTPA, LPCA and EDDHA chelating agents. I see that FEature utilizes two of them (EDDHA, EDTA). Is this significant having both? Which one should I look to get? It seems that in most products there is only one.
> 2. Something appealing to me in FEature is the advertisement of "non-staining". What makes them non-staining? I see a lot of the Iron products with EDDHA, EDTA and don't mention "non-staining".
> 
> Here are the products I have found that are similar to FEature and alternatives to the FAS that you mentioned might be alternatives.
> 
> Micronutrients combos -
> 
> 1. FEature
> 2. Axilo Mix 5 (0-0-0) EDTA
> 3. Minor Elements Soluble Nutritional - 25 lbs
> 4.  Main Event Dry Iron  - This is probably the closes to FEature I could find.
> 5. ZMC Express EDTA Chelated Micronutrients
> 6.  Brexil Multi
> 
> Iron only -
> 
> 1.  Sequestrene 330 Fe Chelated Iron Sprint 330 (DTPA) - You mentioned this as Sprint 330 Fe  in one of your posts in this thread.
> 2.  Sequestrene 138 Fe - EDDHA chelated. Same as Sprint 138
> 3.  Brexil Fe 10%  - LPCA chelated.
> 4.  ROOTS Fe-8  Not sure of Chelating agent.
> 
> I'm sure I've missed some that I've seen ran across and forgotten about but these are the ones I remember and found links for.


Looks like you have been busy 

I think using a chelated Iron is what can make it non staining. I've used the DPTA Iron 3 times now and it doesn't appear to be staining any of my concrete like the FAS can, I still think it's too early to tell but it looks very promising. I agree that FEature looks to be the most cost effective product out there when it comes to Chelated Iron and Micro nutrients, I think you may be going a little too deep down the rabbit hole. What is your ultimate goal from doing all this research? While FAS is fairly cheap, it may not work as well in high pH soils which is why you may want to look into getting a chelated product that may give you longer residual in the soil but it will cost you a bit more too. I think with most things when it comes to your lawn you just have to experiment and see what works best for you in your particular lawn. I'm basically using the "generic" version of Sprint 330 made by Southern AG. Hopefully the FEature will be back in stock soon so everyone can try it out


----------



## kur1j

@Mightyquinn I'm doing the research for learning purposes and to find the cheapest iron that will be the best performance to value for my money. For example getting the pint of iron from Southern Ag on Amazon is like 10$. I would have to have 6 for my 6ksqft lawn almost. Getting something like FEature for 20$ and a per-application cost of $0.50 is just a no-brainer to me. I would just get FEature but its out of stock. It could be next week or it could be 3 months from now before its back in stock. I don't want to wait until the end of growing season to be able to get it and try it so trying to find something similar or an equivalent. Plus I'm a little anally retentive and over think a lot of things haha. I think I'm going to try the Sprint 330 (or its generic) and find a separate micronutrient supplement to spray to just try. When FEature comes back in stock I can give that a try as well. I'm sure to let you guys know what I do .


----------



## Mightyquinn

Sounds like a solid plan to me!


----------



## g-man

Harrell has some good info on iron in this article. They also sell what looks as a good product that I've not being able to source.

https://www.harrells.com/blog/irony-in-iron

One thing to clarify, pH matters if you are applying by soil. For foliar (with some NIS), the pH of the soil is not that important.

edit:
This one: https://www.harrells.com/products/item/200294/harrells-max-ns-iron-25-gal-cont


----------



## kur1j

@g-man Yup! Saw that article in my research as well. Unfortunately Harrell's is literally impossible to procure since they only deal with businesses. They don't have any type of distributor so I can't get a single product they make. It sucks because I want to try some of their slow release fertilizer as well.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I use the southern ag iron. Got the gallon jug. I spray my tttf 4" with 4oz/M. In a few days, it is nice and dark!! I also add .25oz/M of NIS and 2.5oz/M of AMS. I tried 6oz/M of iron and the grass looked kinda sickly and almost got a black color. So, not sure why they have their label recommendations at super high rates. So, you would need 24oz for 6k of lawn. For the gallon, that is about 5 apps. This costs more since it is a chelated iron.

I also got iron from kelp4less which is cheap if you want to try that. Definitely much cheaper but it isn't chelated like the southern ag one is. I bought citric acid to chelate it instead. I haven't tried it yet so no feedback from me. It is the iron everyone is using in FAS I think though.


----------



## kur1j

@Suburban Jungle Life Thanks. I ended up just going with the Axilo and the generic Sprint 330. Not sure if there is a cheaper option of the chelated iron. Looks like the FAS is quite a bit cheaper than the generic Sprint but more expensive than the Axilo.

The cost per app on the Sprint 330 is $1.25/M - $2.5/M. So for my yard it would be $7.5-$15 per application. I would get between 3-6 applications out of it.

The Axilo is substantially cheaper. Looking at a rate of .18oz/M to .73oz/M which is $0.75 oz (paid 60$) for it. So per 1k that would be $0.13/M-$0.54/M. My yard would be $0.78-$3.24 per application. Out of the 5lb bag of Axilo I would get between 18 and 74 applications on the yard.


----------



## Jconnelly6b

If anyone still needs a mixer attachment, this one has a rounded edge so when you run it against the side of the tank it doesn't shake like a bandit. Very powerful mixing too.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000LGEDRO/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## kur1j

So I just applied some Axilo and the chelated Sorint 330 generic at its lowest recommended dosage over my backyard. I've seem people recommend to water it in before the heat of the next day. But I don't see any of those recommendations for the chelated material. Is that only for the FAS?


----------



## g-man

I gave the EDDHA iron a try this week. I did a 0.2Fe/M rate and it worked, but there was one thing I did not like at all. It is very dark red and in the am after the irrigation, the lawn still looked red mainly in the perimeter that I apply a bit more. I had to then use the hose with a jet nozzle to wash it off. I could still see a slight red tint.

In the future, I will only use this for tree root zone.


----------



## Greendoc

kur1j said:


> So I just applied some Axilo and the chelated Sorint 330 generic at its lowest recommended dosage over my backyard. I've seem people recommend to water it in before the heat of the next day. But I don't see any of those recommendations for the chelated material. Is that only for the FAS?


Sprint 330 and Axilo are designed for foliar application to non irrigated crops. AS is not very well absorbed through leaves. The main purpose of the AS is to acidify the spray water sufficiently so the Ferrous Sulfate does not precipitate out of solution and become unavailable.

Those liquid mixes I talk about are never intended to stay on the leaves indefinitely. I normally short cycle the irrigation system right after I am done spraying. The purpose of spraying my fertilizers is to apply materials in a way that does not interfere with low cut turf and to avoid applying Potassium Chloride. My normal Potassium source is Potassium Nitrate.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Greendoc said:


> The main purpose of the AS is to acidify the spray water sufficiently so the Ferrous Sulfate does not precipitate out of solution and become unavailable.


If you feel this is the case, do you think using citric acid instead of AMS is more effective?

In your experience, what ph solution do you think is optimal before adding ferrous sulfate and do you prefer AMS, citric acid, a combo of the two, something else?

I found lots of info with herbicides forming compounds with hard water and using AMS first to bind up those minerals before adding herbicides to the solution. I haven't found anything explaining if this is a problem when using ferrous sulfate and hard water.


----------



## Greendoc

Citric Acid would definitely be more effective in keeping Ferrous Sulfate in solution and available. it forms an actual chelate with the Iron. I use Citric Acid at rates higher than what is needed to chelate the iron because I am dealing with grass growing on soil with a pH of 7.5. Not 6.5. If it were 6.5, using acids and spraying micronutrients would not be part of my program.

You want water pH to be lower than 6. Most municipal water supplies are treated with alkaline carbonates and hydroxides specifically to keep metals insoluble in the water. Importance of this was illustrated when Flint, Michigan skipped the pH modifiers in their water additive program.

When I am spraying, it is almost never to apply one element in isolation. Referring to my typical soil situation. I need to supply nutrients in forms the grass can take up. An additional hazard that thankfully has abated for the time being is flash flooding. I need to bite my tongue when a Youtube celebrity in Florida says "Throw em down". I apply small amounts regularly in quantities that the grass absorbs and utilizes with not much residual in the soil. The idea is not to apply so much that large amounts build up in the soil and carry over for months on end. Again, this is not a reforestation site where fertilizer will be applied only once. So, my spray solution contains NPK+micronutrients+soil correctives. Ammonium Sulfate is part of that mix as one of the N sources.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Thanks @Greendoc !


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I was wondering. We are calling this mix of ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate, ferrous ammonium sulfate. According to these sites, we aren't making ferrous ammonium sulfate.
http://amrita.olabs.edu.in/?sub=73&brch=8&sim=114&cnt=2
http://www.learncbse.in/to-prepare-a-pure-sample-of-ferrous-ammonium-sulphate/

We need to do these steps:
1. We'll first take 7g ferrous sulphate 3.5g ammonium sulphate in a clean 250ml beaker.
2. To this add about 2-3ml of dil.sulphuric acid to prevent the hydrolysis of ferrous sulphate.
3. In another beaker, boil about 20ml of water for 5 minutes.
4. Add the boiling hot water to the contents in the first beaker in small quantities at a time.
5. Stir the contents of the beaker with a glass rod until the salts have completely dissolved.
They continue on to crystallize it.
I'm not sure if you have to use sulfuric acid or if any acid can be substituted.

Thoughts on this?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I was wondering. We are calling this mix of ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate, ferrous ammonium sulfate. According to these sites, we aren't making ferrous ammonium sulfate.
> http://amrita.olabs.edu.in/?sub=73&brch=8&sim=114&cnt=2
> http://www.learncbse.in/to-prepare-a-pure-sample-of-ferrous-ammonium-sulphate/
> 
> We need to do these steps:
> 1. We'll first take 7g ferrous sulphate 3.5g ammonium sulphate in a clean 250ml beaker.
> 2. To this add about 2-3ml of dil.sulphuric acid to prevent the hydrolysis of ferrous sulphate.
> 3. In another beaker, boil about 20ml of water for 5 minutes.
> 4. Add the boiling hot water to the contents in the first beaker in small quantities at a time.
> 5. Stir the contents of the beaker with a glass rod until the salts have completely dissolved.
> They continue on to crystallize it.
> I'm not sure if you have to use sulfuric acid or if any acid can be substituted.
> 
> Thoughts on this?


Thoughts are I'm sorta wondering what is the goal? UN-L tested a bunch of stuff as foliar apps, including expensive chelates, and plain old ferrous sulfate did just as well. Nothing worked well as a soil app. They did mention chelates for ph above 7, but then reported that none of the soil apps, including chelates, were effective at the test site.

It's an interesting idea in any event. Is the goal to try to come up with something that has longer term effect than ferrous sulfate?


----------



## Greendoc

Nothing works well or stands out on cool season grass in the Midwest because they are dealing with ideal soil at the ideal pH and working with grasses that have a minimal need for nutrients. Repeat those trials on low cut warm season grass in more alkaline and nutritionally challenged soils. I take what comes from Universities based in the Midwest with a grain of salt especially when working with low cut warm season grasses.


----------



## Greendoc

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I was wondering. We are calling this mix of ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate, ferrous ammonium sulfate. According to these sites, we aren't making ferrous ammonium sulfate.
> http://amrita.olabs.edu.in/?sub=73&brch=8&sim=114&cnt=2
> http://www.learncbse.in/to-prepare-a-pure-sample-of-ferrous-ammonium-sulphate/
> 
> We need to do these steps:
> 1. We'll first take 7g ferrous sulphate 3.5g ammonium sulphate in a clean 250ml beaker.
> 2. To this add about 2-3ml of dil.sulphuric acid to prevent the hydrolysis of ferrous sulphate.
> 3. In another beaker, boil about 20ml of water for 5 minutes.
> 4. Add the boiling hot water to the contents in the first beaker in small quantities at a time.
> 5. Stir the contents of the beaker with a glass rod until the salts have completely dissolved.
> They continue on to crystallize it.
> I'm not sure if you have to use sulfuric acid or if any acid can be substituted.
> 
> Thoughts on this?


Good find. You must use Sulfuric or else other salts will be formed. As an aside, Ferrous Citrate is made by reacting Citric Acid with Ferrous Sulfate in an Ammonium buffered reaction mixture. At the correct pH, the Ferrous Citrate precipitates out of the solution of saturated Ammonium Sulfate. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3091626A/en


----------



## bluenotgreen

I sprayed my first liquid iron app yesterday 
using 2.25 oz Iron Sulfate and 1.75 oz Ammonium Sulfate per 1k with NIS

When I sprayed yesterday it was 85 degrees and the color looked really good this morning. Nice bluish green. Unfortunately, the high today was 92 degrees and when I got home, I saw areas where the lawn had turned black. Did I make the concentration too high considering the temps I'm dealing with?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Greendoc said:


> Nothing works well or stands out on cool season grass in the Midwest because they are dealing with ideal soil at the ideal pH and working with grasses that have a minimal need for nutrients. Repeat those trials on low cut warm season grass in more alkaline and nutritionally challenged soils. I take what comes from Universities based in the Midwest with a grain of salt especially when working with low cut warm season grasses.


They were working with severely iron deficient turfgrass where none of the soil applied iron forms resulted in any response,, but foliar applied iron forms resulted in a marked response, dependent only on the amount of iron applied and not on its form. High ph was mentioned as an issue to be considered, but unfortunately the ph of the site was not reported (as least I can't find it).

I'm interested in seeing more actual trials of chelates versus just plain old ferrous sulfate. The theory is that a lower rate of chelates should give the same response as a higher rate of plain old ferrous sulfate, and the chelates may last longer, but somebody has to actually try it. The UN-L trials found no difference. Maybe you guys can find a different result. All I'm asking is, what is the goal.

I don't think all of the trials of any of the Universities are always well designed and sometimes the results reported involve reasonable assumptions, but assumptions just the same. It's not just a midwest thing.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

bluenotgreen said:


> I sprayed my first liquid iron app yesterday
> using 2.25 oz Iron Sulfate and 1.75 oz Ammonium Sulfate per 1k with NIS
> 
> When I sprayed yesterday it was 85 degrees and the color looked really good this morning. Nice bluish green. Unfortunately, the high today was 92 degrees and when I got home, I saw areas where the lawn had turned black. Did I make the concentration too high considering the temps I'm dealing with?


One of the PA Universities (I think it must have been Penn State) reported turf blackening from ferrous sulfate at rates as low as 4 lb. / acre (a little more than 1.5 oz per 1,000). From your experience, it might be best to start at 1 oz / 1,000 on cool season grasses and go from there to see the response at a specific site.

Even in the heat, I've applied 1 oz. per 1,000 and seen basically nothing happen and 1 oz. / 1,000 and seen a noticable response but nothing spectacular. So there's definitely a difference in how much the turf at a particular site will take up (doesn't seem to be heat related). I'd expect to see a marked response at 2 oz per 1,000 and up. Maybe your turf just absorbs a lot for some reason. Or is there some possibility that you went heavy handed during application (it happens).

The good news is they reported actual turf damage only after applying 15 lb. / acre. Your turf should be fine.


----------



## bluenotgreen

Delmarva Keith said:


> bluenotgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed my first liquid iron app yesterday
> using 2.25 oz Iron Sulfate and 1.75 oz Ammonium Sulfate per 1k with NIS
> 
> When I sprayed yesterday it was 85 degrees and the color looked really good this morning. Nice bluish green. Unfortunately, the high today was 92 degrees and when I got home, I saw areas where the lawn had turned black. Did I make the concentration too high considering the temps I'm dealing with?
> 
> 
> 
> One of the PA Universities (I think it must have been Penn State) reported turf blackening from ferrous sulfate at rates as low as 4 lb. / acre (a little more than 1.5 oz per 1,000). From your experience, it might be best to start at 1 oz / 1,000 on cool season grasses and go from there to see the response at a specific site.
> 
> Even in the heat, I've applied 1 oz. per 1,000 and seen basically nothing happen and 1 oz. / 1,000 and seen a noticable response but nothing spectacular. So there's definitely a difference in how much the turf at a particular site will take up (doesn't seem to be heat related). I'd expect to see a marked response at 2 oz per 1,000 and up. Maybe your turf just absorbs a lot for some reason. Or is there some possibility that you went heavy handed during application (it happens).
> 
> The good news is they reported actual turf damage only after applying 15 lb. / acre. Your turf should be fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks Delmarva Keith for your help and knowledge. As I think about it, I think you're right about me being heavy handed. I mixed two 4 gallon tanks using 2.25 oz Iron Sulfate and 1.75 oz Ammonium Sulfate plus NIS. I sprayed a total of 8 gallons on my 6k lawn. So the actual concentration I used was more like 4.5 oz Iron Sulfate and 3.5 oz Ammonium Sulfate per 1k if lawn. I guess it's no wonder the lawn is turning black. I'm glad to hear it'll survive but I'm very upset it was already looking pretty decent and now I've ruined it for awhile


----------



## Greendoc

Delmarva Keith said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nothing works well or stands out on cool season grass in the Midwest because they are dealing with ideal soil at the ideal pH and working with grasses that have a minimal need for nutrients. Repeat those trials on low cut warm season grass in more alkaline and nutritionally challenged soils. I take what comes from Universities based in the Midwest with a grain of salt especially when working with low cut warm season grasses.
> 
> 
> 
> They were working with severely iron deficient turfgrass where none of the soil applied iron forms resulted in any response,, but foliar applied iron forms resulted in a marked response, dependent only on the amount of iron applied and not on its form. High ph was mentioned as an issue to be considered, but unfortunately the ph of the site was not reported (as least I can't find it).
> 
> I'm interested in seeing more actual trials of chelates versus just plain old ferrous sulfate. The theory is that a lower rate of chelates should give the same response as a higher rate of plain old ferrous sulfate, and the chelates may last longer, but somebody has to actually try it. The UN-L trials found no difference. Maybe you guys can find a different result. All I'm asking is, what is the goal.
> 
> I don't think all of the trials of any of the Universities are always well designed and sometimes the results reported involve reasonable assumptions, but assumptions just the same. It's not just a midwest thing.
Click to expand...

All I know is that applying reasonable amounts of micronutrients including Iron but not excluding other elements in an available form makes grass greener than grass supplied NPK only. That greener appearance occurs without surge growth. For me, the goal is green grass that does not grow so fast that it is hard to keep up with mowing. In my area, anyone can make most grasses greener by applying 5+lb Ammonium Sulfate. Grass turns almost blue because of how green it is. I will then show you a lawn that needs mowing multiple times a week, possibly scalps at every mowing, and uptake of Potassium is affected due to displacement by the high concentrations of Ammonium ions.

The cheaper and common EDTA chelates are poorly available in soil when pH is over 7. Ferrous Sulfate similarly does very little unless it is applied with acids or else applied in quantities that start to directly affect soil pH. BTW, I have applied corrective applications consisting of 1+ lb of Ferrous Sulfate + acids to lawns affected by highly alkaline soils. Those applications could not be considered foliar by any means. That rate of Iron applied in a low water volume and not immediately irrigated in will instantly scorch turf. It won't go black, it will go instantly brown.

Ferrous Sulfate mixed in plain water sometimes works, and sometimes not depending on what is in the water. Presence of alkaline Carbonates, Hydroxides, and Phosphates, will make that Ferrous not as available. I remember the old turfgrass management texts suggesting addition of Sulfuric Acid to spray water being used to make up a Ferrous Sulfate solution. I think the advantage of a pre mixed, chelated product like FEature is that one does not need to handle truly hazardous materials to make up a fertilizer mix. Sulfuric Acid is nasty.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Greendoc said:


> Ferrous Sulfate mixed in plain water sometimes works, and sometimes not depending on what is in the water. Presence of alkaline Carbonates, Hydroxides, and Phosphates, will make that Ferrous not as available. I remember the old turfgrass management texts suggesting addition of Sulfuric Acid to spray water being used to make up a Ferrous Sulfate solution. I think the advantage of a pre mixed, chelated product like FEature is that one does not need to handle truly hazardous materials to make up a fertilizer mix. Sulfuric Acid is nasty.


Now that sounds like FAS! Well, the textbook version anyway.

I'm just wondering if the mix of iron and AMS we are suggesting in this thread should be called something else. Maybe a new name and rename this thread? Are we advertising false info? What if a chemist looked at this?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Greendoc said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering. We are calling this mix of ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate, ferrous ammonium sulfate. According to these sites, we aren't making ferrous ammonium sulfate.
> http://amrita.olabs.edu.in/?sub=73&brch=8&sim=114&cnt=2
> http://www.learncbse.in/to-prepare-a-pure-sample-of-ferrous-ammonium-sulphate/
> 
> We need to do these steps:
> 1. We'll first take 7g ferrous sulphate 3.5g ammonium sulphate in a clean 250ml beaker.
> 2. To this add about 2-3ml of dil.sulphuric acid to prevent the hydrolysis of ferrous sulphate.
> 3. In another beaker, boil about 20ml of water for 5 minutes.
> 4. Add the boiling hot water to the contents in the first beaker in small quantities at a time.
> 5. Stir the contents of the beaker with a glass rod until the salts have completely dissolved.
> They continue on to crystallize it.
> I'm not sure if you have to use sulfuric acid or if any acid can be substituted.
> 
> Thoughts on this?
> 
> 
> 
> Good find. You must use Sulfuric or else other salts will be formed. As an aside, Ferrous Citrate is made by reacting Citric Acid with Ferrous Sulfate in an Ammonium buffered reaction mixture. At the correct pH, the Ferrous Citrate precipitates out of the solution of saturated Ammonium Sulfate. https://patents.google.com/patent/US3091626A/en
Click to expand...

When you said using citric acid was good, I thought is was ferrous citrate. I read that article and nope. Maybe it is chelated ferrous sulfate but it isn't ferrous citrate.

This is why I was wondering about the truth to calling this ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate mix, ferrous ammonium sulfate. To my understanding, it isn't. We aren't using sulfuric acid to create the FAS compound.

Am I wrong here?


----------



## g-man

This is well outside my conform zone with chemistry. Soon we start talking about the avocado (avogadro 6.02 * 10^23) number.

The recipe posted by MQ works pretty good to those that use it.


----------



## Ware

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> ...This is why I was wondering about the truth to calling this ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate mix, ferrous ammonium sulfate. To my understanding, it isn't. We aren't using sulfuric acid to create the FAS compound.
> 
> Am I wrong here?


I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't overthink it. Referring to this solution as FAS predates TLF, and is probably similar to those of us in the southern states calling any carbonated soft drink a "coke" even if it is not a Coca-Cola. :thumbup:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ware said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...This is why I was wondering about the truth to calling this ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate mix, ferrous ammonium sulfate. To my understanding, it isn't. We aren't using sulfuric acid to create the FAS compound.
> 
> Am I wrong here?
> 
> 
> 
> I understand what you're saying, but I wouldn't overthink it. Referring to this solution as FAS predates TLF, and is probably similar to those of us in the southern states calling any carbonated soft drink a "coke" even if it is not a Coca-Cola. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

 :thumbsup:


----------



## Bkell101

Hey all,

New to this site. New to lawn care.

I know the original poster listed a make your own solution.

Are there any iron supplements for greening that work well that you can buy on amazon or Lowe's/Home Depot?

I looked at the label and they have other things in them like nitrogen besides the iron


----------



## Ware

Bkell101 said:


> Hey all,
> 
> New to this site. New to lawn care.
> 
> I know the original poster listed a make your own solution.
> 
> Are there any iron supplements for greening that work well that you can buy on amazon or Lowe's/Home Depot?
> 
> I looked at the label and they have other things in them like nitrogen besides the iron


Welcome to TLF! Glad you're here! :thumbsup:

Some here are using Feature 6-0-0. Others use Southern Ag Chelated Iron. Both can be purchased on Amazon (although the Feature is a little cheaper direct from EPestHero). Also note that you can buy the Ferrous Sulfate and Ammonium Sulfate used in the OP on Amazon.

The Nitrogen is fine. The Ammonium Sulfate in the OP is Nitrogen, and the Feature 6-0-0 is 6% Ammoniacal Nitrogen.

*Updated links to smaller quantities of FS and AS for your lawn size. The Feature 6-0-0 application rate is 2oz per thousand square feet, so one bag would last you a long time. The rate for the Southern Ag stuff is 1 pint per thousand for lawns.


----------



## HomerGuy

I may have missed this posted earlier in this thread, but how often are you guys reapplying FAS?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ware said:


> The rate for the Southern Ag stuff is 1 pint per thousand for lawns.


I know it says that on the label but my lawn turned black in some spots when using 6oz/M... I use it at 4oz/M with great results! I do add 2.5oz/M AMS. Hope that helps if anyone wants to try the southern ag liquid iron.


----------



## Ware

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rate for the Southern Ag stuff is 1 pint per thousand for lawns.
> 
> 
> 
> I know it says that on the label but my lawn turned black in some spots when using 6oz/M... I use it at 4oz/M with great results! I do add 2.5oz/M AMS. Hope that helps if anyone wants to try the southern ag liquid iron.
Click to expand...

Thanks! Good to know! :thumbsup:

I would also be curious to know how much @Fishnugget is using on his bermuda.


----------



## g-man

I think they mean 1 pint/ksqft when it is soil applied.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

But 1pt/M? That's $$$!


----------



## Ware

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> But 1pt/M? That's $$$!


Yeah, that's why I've never tried it. Sounds like folks are using a much lower rate though.


----------



## Ware




----------



## Bkell101

Ware said:


> Bkell101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> New to this site. New to lawn care.
> 
> I know the original poster listed a make your own solution.
> 
> Are there any iron supplements for greening that work well that you can buy on amazon or Lowe's/Home Depot?
> 
> I looked at the label and they have other things in them like nitrogen besides the iron
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to TLF! Glad you're here! :thumbsup:
> 
> Some here are using Feature 6-0-0. Others use Southern Ag Chelated Iron. Both can be purchased on Amazon (although the Feature is a little cheaper direct from EPestHero). Also note that you can buy the Ferrous Sulfate and Ammonium Sulfate used in the OP on Amazon.
> 
> The Nitrogen is fine. The Ammonium Sulfate in the OP is Nitrogen, and the Feature 6-0-0 is 6% Ammoniacal Nitrogen.
> 
> *Updated links to smaller quantities of FS and AS for your lawn size. The Feature 6-0-0 application rate is 2oz per thousand square feet, so one bag would last you a long time. The rate for the Southern Ag stuff is 1 pint per thousand for lawns.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

I had already bought ironite from Pennington in a liquid form. Is this product ok? Or should I return it and go with one of the two you suggested for better results?


----------



## Ware

@Bkell101 sorry I don't have any experience with that product. Someone else will probably come along that has used it though. :thumbup:


----------



## g-man

I don't like it and it won't work if pH is high. There is some controversy around what other chemicals are in that bag.

Edit: sorry you said liquid. I'm not familiar with it.


----------



## Bkell101

You guys are great, thanks for the replies so far....hope to keep learning and educating myself.


----------



## Ware

Bkell101 said:


> You guys are great, thanks for the replies so far....hope to keep learning and educating myself.


I learn something new here every day. :thumbsup:


----------



## Delmarva Keith

I came across this article when looking for something else. I thought you guys might be interested.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/1999feb1a.pdf

It's fairly dense with information, but the interesting takeaways for me were:

1. When applying foliar iron, also always apply some N to get the greenup response. Iron is instumental in the electron tranfer process but making chlorophyll still needs N too.

2. Plants can ionize iron from otherwise unavailable iron hydroxides in soil. So frequent foliar applications of iron or, even soil applied iron, can improve soil iron, even if all of it fixates to an unavilable form the minute it hits the ground.

3. Chelated iron is better.


----------



## g-man

:thumbup: thats a good one.

This research shows some differences between foliar and soil. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3582#p66456


----------



## Fishnugget

Ware said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> The rate for the Southern Ag stuff is 1 pint per thousand for lawns.
> 
> 
> 
> I know it says that on the label but my lawn turned black in some spots when using 6oz/M... I use it at 4oz/M with great results! I do add 2.5oz/M AMS. Hope that helps if anyone wants to try the southern ag liquid iron.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks! Good to know! :thumbsup:
> 
> I would also be curious to know how much @Fishnugget is using on his bermuda.
Click to expand...

Hey Ware, to answer your question I am using 16 oz/1000sq ft or 1 pint/ 1000sq ft. My front lawn is about 640sq ft so I have used 7oz of Southern Ag in liquid form.


----------



## g-man

@Fishnugget the 1 pint/M is foliar or soil application?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

g-man said:


> :thumbup: thats a good one.
> 
> This research shows some differences between foliar and soil. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3582#p66456


I take your point and I'm not sure how they would be harmonized. Actual trials trump theory so I'd lean more heavily on the research you reference. OTOH, the trials were not designed to test what they ultimately concluded and all of the issues you raised remain open questions.

To rationalize all this, I have concluded that the plant has to be in extremis of iron deficiency before it is able to ionize enough iron hydroxides to survive, at least for certain soil conditions. So it generally lives on but with symptoms of iron deficiency. I have concluded this with no research, trials or other scientific basis, just metadata based assumption, same as real PhD researchers. :mrgreen:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> @Fishnugget the 1 pint/M is foliar or soil application?


Curious to know myself. Do you mix it with anything or only the liquid iron?


----------



## Movingshrub

Article that seems applicable to this topic - "Choosing the Right Fertilizer for Your Turf: Methods of Application" 
Foliar vs Granular apps

https://www.gcsaa.org/docs/default-source/research-and-information/presentations/2014/Methods-of-Application.pdf


----------



## kolbasz

just curious about the difference between the new amazon links and the previous ebay ones. For some reason I remember it as cheaper when it was on ebay.


----------



## HomerGuy

I ended up buying the iron sulfate directly from Kelp4Less.com

I bought a 30 pound bag, and that was the cheapest per pound option I could find between eBay, Amazon, etc.


----------



## g-man

@kolbasz Here is the ebay link. It is the same price as amazon ($36.99 today). https://www.ebay.com/itm/25-Pounds-Ferrous-Sulfate-Iron-Sulfate-Water-Soluble-Powder-20-Iron-/190890070598?hash=item2c71ef5246:g:2T0AAOxyf1dTKHNM

Here is the price history from ebay for that item. https://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidsLogin&item=190890070598&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2564 Same price since Mar18

The item in ebay shows limited quantity from time to time. Both are free shipping. Feel free to google search for a better price and post if you find it. The links are just for convenience and not implied that you have to buy thru them or that they are the best price.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I did what @HomerGuy did. $38 for 30lbs and free shipping. https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/


----------



## kolbasz

It's all good, for some reason I thought it used to be $25 and wondered if that source went away or raised the price. But it could just be me making up numbers. Not an issue either way, just the thought of the morning...


----------



## kolbasz

The 4oz. And 3.4oz are by weight, right?


----------



## Ware

kolbasz said:


> The 4oz. And 3.4oz are by weight, right?


Yes. :thumbsup:


----------



## g-man

I will confess to using a scoop thing I have. I did the weight one time and decided the scoop is close enough. It is a tablespoon for the espresso machine. One tablespoon = ~0.5oz. I recommend doing it by weight first and error in the side of less is better if you want to use a scoop.


----------



## Turftoe

I picked up a 50 pound bag of ferrous sulfate today from site one (<$22) And the guy suggested using urea 46-0-0 instead of ammonium sulfate to give nutrients as well. Does anyone have any experience with us, will it hurt my grass to mix them?


----------



## Ballistic

I started doing it by volume, and then later went to a scale. It seemed to be pretty damn close. I should see what the weight to volume really is.

When i was doing it by volume first i didn't have any issues with it though.


----------



## Lawn_newbie

@Turftoe Do you know what the application rate is for the ferrous sulfate? And how long do you expect the iron will remain available in the ground?


----------



## Turftoe

Lawn_newbie said:


> @Turftoe Do you know what the application rate is for the ferrous sulfate? And how long do you expect the iron will remain available in the ground?


I would put down ferrous sulfate at 4oz/k like in the original post and I expect to reapply probably every 3 weeks. I'm just unsure if it is ok to mix with Urea and if that would be beneficial to the grass.


----------



## Lawn_newbie

@Turftoe my apologies. I misread this thread. I just assumed you buying a 50lb bag meant you were going to put it down as a granular.


----------



## Daniel021382

I was going to do this application today and stumbled across some Milorganite. Can I do them together since the MILO has iron?


----------



## g-man

Yes, the Milo iron takes some time to show up. If you want do a few less oz of Fe in your mix to be safer.


----------



## Daniel021382

I figured I'd knock and ounce off each and do 3 and 2.4 just to be safe. &#128077;


----------



## Hyna32

Excellent thread! Purchased my FS and AS from the Amzn links provided. On a different note, does anyone have a 'favorite' digital scale they use for measuring/weighing thier chemicals? Picked this up and has faired quite well for me. 
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004164SRA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## HomerGuy

Hyna32 said:


> Excellent thread! Purchased my FS and AS from the Amzn links provided. On a different note, does anyone have a 'favorite' digital scale they use for measuring/weighing thier chemicals? Picked this up and has faired quite well for me.
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004164SRA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I also purchased a similar digital scale from Amazon. It was pretty cheap and has been working great. Beats having to "borrow" the scale we keep in the kitchen.


----------



## CenlaLowell

Is there a reason to use this and not just any liquid fertilizer that has 6% iron in it? I'm really curious about this.


----------



## g-man

When your pH goes above 7, the iron is not easily absorbed by thru the soil. Foliar applications do work for this. Also, the qty of iron needed for a foliar app is less than trying thru the soil.


----------



## HomerGuy

My soil pH is 7.9, and I have applied FAS as close as 6 days apart and did not see any adverse affects. I'm sure my lawn was suffering from low iron initially, but I'm curious how much is too much FAS? Because right now it seems like my lawn is just eating it up.


----------



## g-man

You will know when it turns black. If you noticed a response and the lawn is not yellow, dont apply more. Only apply when it looks like it needs it (eg. after heavy rains). I normally do it with PGR but I go with a low rate (less is more).

I have a neighbor that keeps asking about my dark green lawn. I told him that I apply via a backpack sprayer and it is the only way it works. I gave him pictures of what to buy. He applied it granular and was complaining that it doesnt work. He is also trying to mow reel low with a rotary.


----------



## ttrain

Is this good to apply anytime through the growing season on bermuda?? Should we stop about 30 days prior to dormancy?


----------



## Drewmey

Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/

It is $38 for 30 lbs. The MSDS says it is 100% soluble. They have ammonium sulfate as well but it isn't any cheaper than the Amazon link.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Drewmey said:


> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> It is $38 for 30 lbs. The MSDS says it is 100% soluble. They have ammonium sulfate as well but it isn't any cheaper than the Amazon link.


I think I have used that in the past and it works just fine. You will get the most bang for your buck if you can find Ammonium Sulfate locally. All Ammonium Sulfate(21-0-0) is water soluble.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Drewmey said:


> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/


Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.


----------



## Drewmey

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I will have to buy some and try it out next year. Milorganite has gotten so difficult to find in my area that I plan on switching to Purely Organic or maybe back to synthetic but would like to maintain that dark green that I have been getting from the iron in Milo. Will do a soil test next spring but I likely need to lay off the phosphorus anyway after (2) years of mostly using Milo. So this should be a good solution for me.

Also, does anyone know if you can apply your dissolved ferrous sulfate with humic, fulvic or kelp? Would be nice to put down all as one application. Not to mention that I am trying to do that about every 3-4 weeks next year anyway. Could just make it a monthly application of both at the same time if it is ok.


----------



## Fishnugget

g-man said:


> @Fishnugget the 1 pint/M is foliar or soil application?


My apologies g-man for responding 5 months later but I did not see this post. 

To answer your question, the 1 pint/1000 sq ft was foliar rate. I had a better green color response using Southern Ag Liquid than Southern Ag soluble powder or Feature.

I may buy the Southern Ag Liquid again and test. Also, it could have been that I might have sprayed at the right time. I sprayed during spring and it was optimal growth and coloring conditions for my grass.

Once it got hotter the Iron applications did not do a whole lot. I am thinking if it gets hotter the less effect iron application may have.


----------



## Fishnugget

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Fishnugget the 1 pint/M is foliar or soil application?
> 
> 
> 
> Curious to know myself. Do you mix it with anything or only the liquid iron?
Click to expand...

Sadly, I can't remember but I think I used Iron from Southern Ag (liquid) and PGR and it got the greenest response.

No wonder Lawn Care Nut uses a notebook.

I have overseeded with PRG and am now getting ready to experiment with different Iron apps. I am kind of excited to see what types of results I can get.

I plan to use Southern AG (powder), Southern Ag (liquid) and Feature. I will post my results!


----------



## craigdt

Wow- that Southern Ag chelated liquid iron is 10oz per 1,000 Sq ft.

That will get expensive pretty quick.

Any other cheaper options that you all have used?


----------



## iFisch3224

craigdt said:


> Wow- that Southern Ag chelated liquid iron is 10oz per 1,000 Sq ft.
> 
> That will get expensive pretty quick.
> 
> Any other cheaper options that you all have used?


I've had great results with Feature/Microgreene/Milo. Just check my lawn journal. 😁


----------



## craigdt

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
Click to expand...

Can you tell me how many ounces of this powder you use per 1,000 Sq feet?


----------



## Mightyquinn

craigdt said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you tell me how many ounces of this powder you use per 1,000 Sq feet?
Click to expand...

4 oz/1k of lawn :thumbup:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

craigdt said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can you tell me how many ounces of this powder you use per 1,000 Sq feet?
Click to expand...

As Mightyquinn said, 4oz/M is good. I do a mix so I end up using less but the nice thing is, you can just adjust it each time until you are happy. If it's not green enough, use more. Tad black, use less. Per M, I use 2oz iron, 5g citric acid, 2.5oz AMS, and 11ml NIS in the summer. Spring and fall, I will go up to 3, maybe 4oz depending on temps and growth rate. Also, each grass type may respond differently.


----------



## Dkrem

I mixed up and applied my first batch of FAS/AS last week and was surprised to see the iron oxidize in the tank before my eyes and the solution go from pale blue green to orange. Is this the standard outcome or do I need to further acidify the AS solution before adding my iron?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Dkrem said:


> I mixed up and applied my first batch of FAS/AS last week and was surprised to see the iron oxidize in the tank before my eyes and the solution go from pale blue green to orange. Is this the standard outcome or do I need to further acidify the AS solution before adding my iron?


I don't know if it's "supposed" to do that but yes, often does exactly same when I mix it. Looks like liquid rust in the tank instantaneously. Iron oxide includes ferrous or ferric states. What you want is the less stable ferrous state. My understanding is that ferric oxide (+3) is rust colored and ferrous oxide (+2) is black.

I would try lowering pH to see if the results differed or maybe if there's a chemist reading this there's a better answer. I do recall different results when I mixed into a solution of slightly lower pH but it has been a while and I can't remember.


----------



## Dkrem

Fair enough. I know I have higher pH water. But I also mixed 10# of AS with only 2# of FS in 20 gal of water. I'll check the pH next time before I add the FS.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Dkrem said:


> I mixed up and applied my first batch of FAS/AS last week and was surprised to see the iron oxidize in the tank before my eyes and the solution go from pale blue green to orange. Is this the standard outcome or do I need to further acidify the AS solution before adding my iron?


It's perfectly normal for the mix to turn orange/dark brown and everything should be just fine. :thumbup:


----------



## Dkrem

Awesome, thank you.


----------



## 440mag

Goooooooood mornin' and Happy Spring, boys (& girls)! 

Think I might just be ready to jump on this here train and have a question: Where would I resource citric acid?

Doesn't sound like I need it since I'll be applying foliarly but, just curious in case I ever did ....

This is yet another terrific thread, btw! :thumbup:


----------



## Dkrem

Citric acid is available on Amazon and eBay. Or call around locally to you. I was able to get a 50# bag for $60 from a local chemical/water treatment company.


----------



## 440mag

Thanks, Dkrem - much!

(Gotta be honest; I was prepared for one of the forum gurus to enlighten me with something like,

"*Go to the grocery store and get a quart of orange juice man, c'mon!!!!!!*"  :lol:  :shock: :? :roll:  :lol:


----------



## g-man

440mag said:


> "*Go to the grocery store and get a quart of orange juice man, c'mon!!!!!!*"  :lol:  :shock: :? :roll:  :lol:


Close. Go to the grocery aisle for baking supplies. It should be close to the pickling stuff. But you won't find 50lb bags.

Or the vitamin aisle.


----------



## 440mag

g-man said:


> Close. . . .


Doh! Ya got me! :lol: :lol:


----------



## Drewmey

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
Click to expand...

I finally got around to buying some iron sulfate pretty cheap off eBay (4 lbs at $12.70) to play around and test a bit.

However, in rereading this thread (now 6 months later), I am confused as to whether I *need* an acid or it just helps? And I am also confused as to whether I *need* ammonium sulfate? The very first post states that the Ammonium Sulfate mostly acts as a booster and speeds up the green up.

If I am applying foliarly, will I see results with just Iron Sulfate dissolved in my tap water? (Kelp4Less states it is 100% soluble). Sounds like I don't have to have it, but results may be better when used with citric acid. Citric acid is readily available near me I believe. However, I would have to order Ammonium Sulfate online or drive at least an hour.

For reference I plan on using this mostly in the summer (possibly in conjunction with Chitosan) to maintain a green TTTF without heavy watering. I'll do applications in the spring and fall but I don't have nearly as much trouble getting a nice dark green in those seasons.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Drewmey said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have experience with this ferrous sulfate heptahydrate from Kelp4less? https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I finally got around to buying some iron sulfate pretty cheap off eBay (4 lbs at $12.70) to play around and test a bit.
> 
> However, in rereading this thread (now 6 months later), I am confused as to whether I *need* an acid or it just helps? And I am also confused as to whether I *need* ammonium sulfate? The very first post states that the Ammonium Sulfate mostly acts as a booster and speeds up the green up.
> 
> If I am applying foliarly, will I see results with just Iron Sulfate dissolved in my tap water? (Kelp4Less states it is 100% soluble). Sounds like I don't have to have it, but results may be better when used with citric acid. Citric acid is readily available near me I believe. However, I would have to order Ammonium Sulfate online or drive at least an hour.
> 
> For reference I plan on using this mostly in the summer (possibly in conjunction with Chitosan) to maintain a green TTTF without heavy watering. I'll do applications in the spring and fall but I don't have nearly as much trouble getting a nice dark green in those seasons.
Click to expand...

Wow, you're reopened a can of worms, lol. I'll reply to the best of my memory but some of the other guys are really expert on this and will fill in the details and correct my mistakes.

Well, do you need ammonium sulfate and/or citric acid. First off, do you need iron at all? If not iron deficient, the plants are already making chlorophyl as best they can. Iron is needed in that process but if not iron deficient then iron isn't the limiting factor. Only way to find out for sure is plant tissue analysis (expensive) or just apply it and observe plant response. As long as you don't go too heavy handed with the iron it won't hurt anything.

Do you need citric acid? If I remember right, citric acid acts as a chelating agent which helps to keep the iron plant available even if soil pH would otherwise result in too much iron tie up by forming insoluble compounds with other minerals. That's my understanding anyway. Chelating the iron adds additional "insurance" to try to keep it plant available if soil conditions would otherwise interfere.

Do you need ammonium sulfate? Studies indicate, yes, a little bit of plant available nitrogen is necessary for uptake and plant use of the iron. The little bit of nitrogen is needed by the plant to use the iron in the plant's process of making chlorophyl.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Delmarva Keith said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Works great. I use this for my FAS/liquid iron apps.
> 
> 
> 
> I finally got around to buying some iron sulfate pretty cheap off eBay (4 lbs at $12.70) to play around and test a bit.
> 
> However, in rereading this thread (now 6 months later), I am confused as to whether I *need* an acid or it just helps? And I am also confused as to whether I *need* ammonium sulfate? The very first post states that the Ammonium Sulfate mostly acts as a booster and speeds up the green up.
> 
> If I am applying foliarly, will I see results with just Iron Sulfate dissolved in my tap water? (Kelp4Less states it is 100% soluble). Sounds like I don't have to have it, but results may be better when used with citric acid. Citric acid is readily available near me I believe. However, I would have to order Ammonium Sulfate online or drive at least an hour.
> 
> For reference I plan on using this mostly in the summer (possibly in conjunction with Chitosan) to maintain a green TTTF without heavy watering. I'll do applications in the spring and fall but I don't have nearly as much trouble getting a nice dark green in those seasons.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, you're reopened a can of worms, lol. I'll reply to the best of my memory but some of the other guys are really expert on this and will fill in the details and correct my mistakes.
> 
> Well, do you need ammonium sulfate and/or citric acid. First off, do you need iron at all? If not iron deficient, the plants are already making chlorophyl as best they can. Iron is needed in that process but if not iron deficient then iron isn't the limiting factor. Only way to find out for sure is plant tissue analysis (expensive) or just apply it and observe plant response. As long as you don't go too heavy handed with the iron it won't hurt anything.
> 
> Do you need citric acid? If I remember right, citric acid acts as a chelating agent which helps to keep the iron plant available even if soil pH would otherwise result in too much iron tie up by forming insoluble compounds with other minerals. That's my understanding anyway. Chelating the iron adds additional "insurance" to try to keep it plant available if soil conditions would otherwise interfere.
> 
> Do you need ammonium sulfate? Studies indicate, yes, a little bit of plant available nitrogen is necessary for uptake and plant use of the iron. The little bit of nitrogen is needed by the plant to use the iron in the plant's process of making chlorophyl.
Click to expand...

+1 I think you covered it pretty well. It's all about experimenting and seeing what works best for YOU as everyone's lawn/soil is different so YRMV. I think using AMS and/or Citric Acid is just insurance when applying Ferrous Sulfate.


----------



## Drewmey

@Mightyquinn @Delmarva Keith

Thank you both for the reply! This synopsis was perfectly clear and what I needed. Time to do a little shopping.

EDIT: Well not sure if this will work exactly the same way. But my local store had Urea but not ammonium sulfate. So I'll be trying that, iron sulfate and citric acid. Unless there is a special reaction with the ammonium sulfate, I image a lower dose of urea will provide the nitrogen that sounds like it is the important component. We shall see.


----------



## Dkrem

Mightyquinn said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I mixed up and applied my first batch of FAS/AS last week and was surprised to see the iron oxidize in the tank before my eyes and the solution go from pale blue green to orange. Is this the standard outcome or do I need to further acidify the AS solution before adding my iron?
> 
> 
> 
> It's perfectly normal for the mix to turn orange/dark brown and everything should be just fine. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

I sprayed 21 gal of solution again tonight. Just for fun I tossed in a cup of citric acid with the AS to dissolve before adding the Ferrous Sulfate. The solution stayed blue-green.


----------



## NoslracNevok

Would I be good mixing these two (granular AS, liquid Fe) in equivalent active ingredient rates?


----------



## g-man

Normally you disolve the AS in water first (agitate vigorously). Then add the Fe.

But some of the chelated products already have AS in it, so there is no need to add more. I tried finding the product label for your fertilome product and it is not in their website.


----------



## Drewmey

Dkrem said:


> I sprayed 21 gal of solution again tonight. Just for fun I tossed in a cup of citric acid with the AS to dissolve before adding the Ferrous Sulfate. The solution stayed blue-green.


I had the same experience yesterday, no orange. I used .1oz citric acid, 1.4oz ferrous sulfate, .6oz urea per thousand. Wanted to start low and ramp up until I see how my grass reacts. I figured the urea is twice as much nitrogen as ammonium sulfate so I cut the number down.

So I know 1:14 works as a ratio for citric acid:ferrous sulfate to keep solution blue/green. Could work lower but I only wanted to test on 1ksf and scale doesn't go under .1oz unfortunately.

Also may have to do with what your tap water is as a starting point.


----------



## NoslracNevok

@g-man doesn't appear this has AS. I'm going to buy the solid Ferrous Sulfate soon, but I happened to have this liquid Iron is why I ask.

Lb for lb of active ingredient, liquid Iron is a about double the cost.


----------



## Tmank87

Drewmey said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed 21 gal of solution again tonight. Just for fun I tossed in a cup of citric acid with the AS to dissolve before adding the Ferrous Sulfate. The solution stayed blue-green.
> 
> 
> 
> I had the same experience yesterday, no orange. I used .1oz citric acid, 1.4oz ferrous sulfate, .6oz urea per thousand. Wanted to start low and ramp up until I see how my grass reacts. I figured the urea is twice as much nitrogen as ammonium sulfate so I cut the number down.
> 
> So I know 1:14 works as a ratio for citric acid:ferrous sulfate to keep solution blue/green. Could work lower but I only wanted to test on 1ksf and scale doesn't go under .1oz unfortunately.
> 
> Also may have to do with what your tap water is as a starting point.
Click to expand...

@Drewmey how'd this mixture turn out? Was considering similar rates.


----------



## Drewmey

Tmank87 said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed 21 gal of solution again tonight. Just for fun I tossed in a cup of citric acid with the AS to dissolve before adding the Ferrous Sulfate. The solution stayed blue-green.
> 
> 
> 
> I had the same experience yesterday, no orange. I used .1oz citric acid, 1.4oz ferrous sulfate, .6oz urea per thousand. Wanted to start low and ramp up until I see how my grass reacts. I figured the urea is twice as much nitrogen as ammonium sulfate so I cut the number down.
> 
> So I know 1:14 works as a ratio for citric acid:ferrous sulfate to keep solution blue/green. Could work lower but I only wanted to test on 1ksf and scale doesn't go under .1oz unfortunately.
> 
> Also may have to do with what your tap water is as a starting point.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @Drewmey how'd this mixture turn out? Was considering similar rates.
Click to expand...

Well, I do have the darkest green lawn on the street right now (maybe one other one about the same). However, this isn't really saying a lot on my street! I think it worked fairly well, but I also think I could go a little higher (I am TTTF, mow at about 3"-3.5").

Right now I probably still have some residual Milo that has been sitting on my cold lawn from late last fall, which is now starting to be used again. Truthfully, I probably don't NEED FAS right this moment. So although I probably don't need much of this right now, I won't be using any Milo this year because I don't want quite that much P. So I plan to really see this shine come late Spring (when any residual Milo has been fully used up in my yard) when there won't be other sources of iron available.


----------



## Kaba

Since this has been resurrected already  are you guys doing multiple applications per year of FAS at 4oz/M?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

I'm a cool season grass guy and go with 2 oz per 1,000. After the "rust" discussion, will be adding citric acid this season. In theory, the ferrous (versus ferric) oxidation state should be much more effective. Citric acid is cheap enough so well worth a try.


----------



## Drewmey

Kaba said:


> Since this has been resurrected already  are you guys doing multiple applications per year of FAS at 4oz/M?


I think the general consensus is to reapply every 3 or 4 weeks. Mostly basing your decision off the color of the grass. I'm still figuring out my quantity but pushing up to 2oz/k this week.


----------



## daniel3507

How quickly are you guys seeing a change after applying? My lawn is pretty green from the last fertilizer app but I decided to spray some iron earlier this week.


----------



## Kaba

I found a bit of a green up pretty soon on my application. I was applying the day before a rainfall, and usually the day after the rain it looks deeper green.

Just to be clear the application rate people are using for cool season was starting at about 2oz/k of actual iron?

Math would be (for 20% powder) 20%/2oz/K = 10oz/k of 20% powder?


----------



## g-man

@Kaba for cool season, I think 0.4oz of Fe/ksqft is the norm. I know it could handle 0.8 and 1.6oz of Fe/ksqft if it is really low in iron and no overlaps.

The warm season formula from MQ is 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft.


----------



## ryeguy

g-man said:


> @Kaba for cool season, I think 0.4oz of Fe/ksqft is the norm. I know it could handle 0.8 and 1.6oz of Fe/ksqft if it is really low in iron and no overlaps.
> 
> The warm season formula from MQ is 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft.


Could that dosing be applied to Feature as well? Feature recommends 1-2oz/k and it's 10% Fe so 0.4oz of Fe would be double the bag rate. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't a different type of iron or something that would change the app rate.


----------



## Kaba

@g-man that is a great help thank you. I was experimenting at 2oz solution/k (with no citric) which is about 0.4oz fe/k, I was worried I was too low. I am going to inch up to 0.8oz fe/k and then again with CA to see the differences.

Also, for what it's worth I have an iron deficit and pH 7.9 so I am not too afraid to use higher apps.


----------



## g-man

ryeguy said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Kaba for cool season, I think 0.4oz of Fe/ksqft is the norm. I know it could handle 0.8 and 1.6oz of Fe/ksqft if it is really low in iron and no overlaps.
> 
> The warm season formula from MQ is 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft.
> 
> 
> 
> Could that dosing be applied to Feature as well? Feature recommends 1-2oz/k and it's 10% Fe so 0.4oz of Fe would be double the bag rate. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't a different type of iron or something that would change the app rate.
Click to expand...

The short answer is yes use the same dosing. FEature uses 3 different irons (Iron EDDHA, Iron EDTA, Iron Citrate). These chelates avoid staining the lawn. To the grass it will be Fe that gets absorbed. But I *think* there is a difference. Why I think this? Check this article from Dr. Bill Kreuser:



Numbers 2, 3, 4 all had the same 0.4oz Fe/M rate and no nitrogen. To me 3 looks better and 2 or 4. Significantly better, no. 4 looks to be the worst of those 3. I could argue that 1 (0.12oz of Fe/M) looks close to 4. We are just looking at a picture and maybe it looked the same in the field. I think the analysis is inconclusive. It will be nice to test all of these products at the same rates with and without nitrogen, mainly the EDDHA.

This study shows the 1.6oz Fe/M rate and it looks nice and green, but this was a deficient turf. Think of it on a scale of 0 to 10. This was 0 and the 1.6oz took it to 9. If your lawn ok (scale of 4-5) and you apply the 1.6oz, it might go to 11-12 (black).

In summary, I think the best approach (regardless of product), is to start low 0.2oz FE/M and either increase your frequency of application or increase the rate. This way you can experiment and safely figure out what works for your lawn.

PS all of the above is for cool season turf. Warm season needs a higher rate.


----------



## ryeguy

That's helpful, thanks. Seems like there's a Bill Kreuser article for everything!

I agree the test could be a bit better. The study varies chelators, N rates, and Fe rates all at the same time but doesn't isolate most of them.

I'm a bit confused at one of his conclusions:


> The chelated products did not outperform the cheaper iron sulfate (aka ferrous sulfate).


Does he mean when you don't take app rate into account? Because as you pointed out #3 looks much better than #4 even though they are rate matched. The non-chelated doesn't start to compete (#5) until its rate is double that of the chelated plots.


----------



## g-man

I dont agree with that comment, but take it in context due to his use of the word "cheaper". For a golf course, you could get a 50lb bag of FS (20% Fe) for like $40. That will treat a lot of area compared to a chelated product ($20 for 3lb of FEature @ 10% Fe). Why pay so much extra for it, if you could just double the amount?

For a suburbia lawn with a lot of concrete areas, the chelate avoid stains and that is why I like Feature. If you dont have concrete or you have a large lawn, the FS will make a lot more $ sense or Ferromac.

PS It used to be that there was a Zac Reicher article for everything. I like that academia guys like Kreuser, Soldat and others that take the time to transform the research papers results into an easy to understand article.


----------



## ryeguy

g-man said:


> For a suburbia lawn with a lot of concrete areas, the chelate avoid stains and that is why I like Feature. If you dont have concrete or you have a large lawn, the FS will make a lot more $ sense or Ferromac.


Micros aside, is there an advantage to Feature over FS + citric acid? Does the type of chelator affect how much it can stain concrete? Even at double rate and with the added price of citric acid, I'd imagine it would still be much cheaper per app.


----------



## Drewmey

g-man said:


> For a suburbia lawn with a lot of concrete areas, the chelate avoid stains


I have only sprayed this about (4) times now (so remember that when reading the rest :lol: ). But I have been using about a 1:14 ratio of citric acid to Iron Sulfate. I have accidentally gotten overspray on both brick and concrete several times now without noticing any staining.

I am not sure I would go so far as to say that the citric acid chelates the iron, but I am thinking maybe by reducing the pH of the solution, we are in essence preventing the iron from oxidizing. I have basically no chemistry background so I am just spitballing.

So in my short experience, I think it may be possible to fix the whole staining issue by purchasing a 5 lbs bag of citric acid on amazon for $15 (which I am thinking would last with at least 70 lbs of Iron Sulfate, still trying to dial in that ratio). If this is in fact true, I consider that one less reason to go with a chelated iron (the other being $$$ as you have stated).


----------



## Dkrem

I've sprayed twice now with my 21 gallon sprayer with this mix, dissolved in this order:
1 heaped cup citric acid (maybe .5-.75#)
roughly teaspoon or two silicone surfactant
5-6# AS
5# FS
That works out to 3.8ozwt FS/gallon and I have had no side effects from it. I could probably safely double the concentration off all ingredients, as long as it isn't middle of the day full sun when I apply it. Just before dusk is probably the best time to foliar so it can sit damp/wet on the grass as long as possible.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life




----------



## g-man

@ryeguy @Drewmey

The type of chelator and the concentration of iron and the age and color of the concrete and the concrete sealer all matter in a staining conversation. My concrete is 4yr old and has a blue white hue to it.

There are many different ways to chelate iron. I think the cheapest is iron sucrate (sugar). This is what Scoot Green Max uses, but it does stain since it is one of the weakest chelated and their rates is high since they are going thru the soil.

Citrates is another chelation method. Using citric acid to chelate your own is a great strategy to save some money. I think it is stronger than sucrate. If it is not staining for you, go for it.


----------



## NoslracNevok

I applied a bit too much for certain areas of my lawn. How long would an average application (~3ozFS/M) last?


----------



## Togo

I think a lot of people apply about every 3 or so weeks, so it should tone down a little in about 7-10 days.


----------



## smurg

Not sure if it has been posted, but it looks like Amazon is more expensive than the primary brand website these days:

https://www.greenwaybiotech.com


----------



## Drewmey

smurg said:


> Not sure if it has been posted, but it looks like Amazon is more expensive than the primary brand website these days:
> 
> https://www.greenwaybiotech.com


Some cool products on there. The chelated irons are interesting but fairly pricey. FYI kelp4less seems to be a bit cheaper for iron sulfate unless you are only getting 1 lbs. 30 lbs is actually $7 cheaper than the 25 lbs at Greenway. Not to mention they frequently have email sales for repeat customers.


----------



## Drewmey

Does anyone happen to know if you can mix iron sulfate, Urea, citric acid with azoxystrobin 22.9? Hoping to save a little time by only showing once tonight but not sure if this combo is OK mixed together.


----------



## g-man

I had a few folks ask me about FAS so I think it is will be good to explain how it works and how it does not work.

For the most part, it is not an instant 1hr greener lawn look. If you want that, then a green dye could do it..

By providing iron to the lawn via a foliar application we are bypassing the roots/soil method of getting iron. But iron doesnt really make the lawn greener. Chlorophyll is was give the plants their green color. Chlorophyll is then used in the photosynthesis process for the plant to transform solar energy into food. Iron is one of the elements that is used by the plant to make chlorophyll. The others include Mg, water, nitrogen and sun (energy). Therefore for FAS to work in making the lawn greener, it needs all of those other items and some time to produce the chlorophyll.

This means that you can not expect a starving lawn, in drought with cloudy days to show a green up. Feed it, water it and use FAS as needed.


----------



## thegrassisgreener

So I just spread 2.5 lbs of Ammonium Sulfate per 1,000 sqft and 2.5 lbs of Ironite per 1,000 sqft. and watered it in thoroughly. Will this achieve similar results as spraying liquid?


----------



## Drewmey

thegrassisgreener said:


> So I just spread 2.5 lbs of Ammonium Sulfate per 1,000 sqft and 2.5 lbs of Ironite per 1,000 sqft. and watered it in thoroughly. Will this achieve similar results as spraying liquid?


It may lead to similar results but it also may not. The ironite should provide iron to the soil. Whereas the FAS provides iron to the foliage of the plant. If your soil is high pH, the iron from ironite may not be able to be used by the plant. There may be other reasons that the ironite possibly not gets absorbed by the plant through the soil. But that's one example I'm familiar with.


----------



## cgeorg07

Turftoe said:


> I picked up a 50 pound bag of ferrous sulfate today from site one (<$22) And the guy suggested using urea 46-0-0 instead of ammonium sulfate to give nutrients as well. Does anyone have any experience with us, will it hurt my grass to mix them?


@Turftoe I am curious as well. Did you have any luck using the 46-0-0? Site One close to me has the ferrous sulfate and Urea, but no ammonium sulfate.


----------



## Drewmey

cgeorg07 said:


> Turftoe said:
> 
> 
> 
> I picked up a 50 pound bag of ferrous sulfate today from site one (<$22) And the guy suggested using urea 46-0-0 instead of ammonium sulfate to give nutrients as well. Does anyone have any experience with us, will it hurt my grass to mix them?
> 
> 
> 
> @Turftoe I am curious as well. Did you have any luck using the 46-0-0? Site One close to me has the ferrous sulfate and Urea, but no ammonium sulfate.
Click to expand...

I have been using Ferrous Sulfate, Urea and Citric Acid. It has been working well for me. I have not directly compared the use of Urea in FAS to Ammonium Sulfate. However, while on a weekend trip to Knoxville, I noticed there was a nearby Rural King. I picked up a 51 lbs bag of AS for $11.99!

So eventually I will be able to tell you if I notice any substantial difference.

I am guessing that the citric acid will be more important than the difference between AS vs. Urea. As long as there is nitrogen present, theoretically the nitrogen + iron should be what is needed for chlorophyll. So I wouldn't think the type of nitrogen would matter. Although the AS had the advantage of lowering pH of water, which in turn could potentially make the iron sulfate slightly chelated by the acidic water.


----------



## Dkrem

Keep in mind that AS is directly absorbable by the plants and useable in it's delivered form. Urea needs the urease enzyme to act on it before the plant can use it.


----------



## kainpj

Tried Ferrous Sulfate last night at 4oz/1000 and lawn has orange-ish spot. Any idea why?


----------



## g-man

4oz of FS at 20% is 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft. That's on the high side. What else did you include in your mix? Are you sure it is orange vs black? I would water that area to clean of the leaves immediately.


----------



## kainpj

Just FS and a surfactant. Put down granular ammonium sulfate and sulfate of potash on Sunday. Seems more orange...but can't say for sure I guess. Watered it this morning too but will do it again, thanks.


----------



## Pete1313

Dkrem said:


> Keep in mind that AS is directly absorbable by the plants and useable in it's delivered form. Urea needs the urease enzyme to act on it before the plant can use it.


This is what I initially thought as well, but I don't believe it is the case anymore. The urea is still absorbed by the leaf and converted into usable N when sprayed foliarly while never interacting with urease that is in the thatch/soil. This is a webinar from 2012 titled "The Ins and Outs of Foliar Fertilizers", where Elizabeth Guertal, Ph.D., Auburn University talked alot about foliar fertilization and especially using urea. In there was talk about how long it takes for different amounts of N from urea to be translocated to new leaves, old leaves, and roots. All while sitting on the leaf and not being washed down where the urease is. She said as well that as long as the urea sits on the leaves, it is not subject to any volatilization as it does not come in contact with the urease.


----------



## drenglish

Here's a short read on different rates for different product formulations and what the observations were.

https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/6-7-Iron-Chelates.pdf

It looks like a corrective dose of 1.6 oz of Fe (8oz of a 20% Fe product) resulted in corrected deficiency symptoms but it's advised to go back to lower doses to prevent foliar burn. My recent app at 4oz FAS/M (0.8oz of Fe) resulted in a really nice color response and no burning 7 days later. I did rinse off the app the following morning and applied on a relatively cool evening (less than 80 F outside).

With my PGR apps now moving to around 12 days apart now using GDD, I'll probably back down to 2-3oz FAS/M and see how color is maintained, or not...


----------



## g-man

kainpj said:


> Just FS and a surfactant. Put down granular ammonium sulfate and sulfate of potash on Sunday. Seems more orange...but can't say for sure I guess. Watered it this morning too but will do it again, thanks.


What type of surfactant? Nis or mso? What was your carrier rate?

Let see how it turns out tomorrow. It looks like you did a small area to experiment in the backyard, which is a great approach.


----------



## Dkrem

Orange might likely be the iron oxidizing.


----------



## SGrabs33

Anyone have info on how to chelate this? I've got a good amount left but also a good amount of sidewalks to spray around. Thanks.


----------



## ryeguy

How often are all the cool season folk reapplying, and at what rate? I plan on applying this with PGR each time and I'm curious if I can/should keep applying at 0.7-0.8oz fe/m.

Also, does anyone have a hunch if iron works similar to PGR with regard to GDD? In other words, does foliarly applied iron "wear out" more quickly in hotter weather, or is that just tied to physical growth?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

ryeguy said:


> How often are all the cool season folk reapplying, and at what rate? I plan on applying this with PGR each time and I'm curious if I can/should keep applying at 0.7-0.8oz fe/m.
> 
> Also, does anyone have a hunch if iron works similar to PGR with regard to GDD? In other words, does foliarly applied iron "wear out" more quickly in hotter weather, or is that just tied to physical growth?


As a thought exercise, we can figure out if iron "wears out" more quickly in hot weather. Some of what we know (this is from memory and sources not quoted; I don't have time for that; fact checking welcomed):

1. Plant uptake of foliar fe can increase and tolerance of high levels decrease in hot weather. It's easier to over do it when it's hot.

2. Fe is used to make chlorophyl (so we can guess that when the plant slows down in the heat it will need less fe even as it tends to more efficiently take it up in the heat).

3. Fe is not mobile in the plant so existing growth at the time of application will "get some," but new growth won't unless the fe remains in an available form in the soil.

4. Depending on soil ph, even when it's not hot, fe will bind to other minerals in the soil basically on contact and become insoluble, plant unavailable. Chelating the iron can delay the process. I can't find any research indicating that temp (versus ph) makes any difference.

All of this seems to point to what you're saying - it's tied to plant growth. Seems like hotter weather means apply less because uptake is increased while the plant actually needs less, and also since the plant is growing slower, it will need it less frequently. GDD would help predict when the plant would likely have a need for more except for when it's hot GDD won't predict the plant slowing down or shutting down because it's too hot.

All of this is a guess.


----------



## g-man

I use a 0.2oz Fe/ksqft rate with 10mL of t-nex at the gdd timeframe. If I see that it is not as dark or chlorosis, I bump it up to 0.3 or 0.4 or dial it down to 0.1 or none.


----------



## Drewmey

SGrabs33 said:


> Anyone have info on how to chelate this? I've got a good amount left but also a good amount of sidewalks to spray around. Thanks.


A cheap solution is to add citric acid to the water before the iron. My understanding from others here is that this helps chelate the iron but is not a "strong" chelation solution. I think sugar chelates the iron as well. So it may be possible to use both but I've never tried sugar. Citric acid has limited staining for me but I don't go buck wild spraying.


----------



## g-man

@Greendoc used to chelate his iron with citric before finding/switching to Feature. He will come along and explain how much to use per gallon of water and FS rate.


----------



## Bmossin

If I am going to make enough to cover 3k square feet, can I mix the amount with a 1/2 gallon of hot water making it a concentrate?

I would then add it to an additional 2.5 gallons of water when I go to apply.

If so, how long could I keep that liquid concentrate mix before I add to more water and apply?


----------



## Greendoc

When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.


----------



## Drewmey

Greendoc said:


> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.


You meant to type 4 and not .4, right? I have only been using .1 oz of CA and 2-3 oz of FS. It sounds like I need to up my citric acid quite a bit. :lol:


----------



## ryeguy

Drewmey said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.
> 
> 
> 
> You meant to type 4 and not .4, right? I have only been using .1 oz of CA and 2-3 oz of FS. It sounds like I need to up my citric acid quite a bit. :lol:
Click to expand...

4oz citric acid for 2oz Fe sounds right. If you look at greene effect, it has 1.6:1 citric acid:Fe. Simply doubling the Fe dose is probably easier to remember.


----------



## Drewmey

ryeguy said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.
> 
> 
> 
> You meant to type 4 and not .4, right? I have only been using .1 oz of CA and 2-3 oz of FS. It sounds like I need to up my citric acid quite a bit. :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 4oz citric acid for 2oz Fe sounds right. If you look at greene effect, it has 1.6:1 citric acid:Fe. Simply doubling the Fe dose is probably easier to remember.
Click to expand...

Sounds like I need to buy some more citric acid!


----------



## Greendoc

Drewmey said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.
> 
> 
> 
> You meant to type 4 and not .4, right? I have only been using .1 oz of CA and 2-3 oz of FS. It sounds like I need to up my citric acid quite a bit. :lol:
Click to expand...

That is correct. 4 oz Citric Acid. At that rate it begins to chelate the Iron. It is not as good as EDDHA or even EDTA, but it is something. Keep this mix away from concrete and painted surfaces, because in contact with concrete, the Citric will react with the Calcium in that and leave the Iron free to stain. Paints are normally composed of pigments mixed with finely ground Calcium Carbonate. That has the same reaction.


----------



## kainpj

g-man said:


> kainpj said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just FS and a surfactant. Put down granular ammonium sulfate and sulfate of potash on Sunday. Seems more orange...but can't say for sure I guess. Watered it this morning too but will do it again, thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> What type of surfactant? Nis or mso? What was your carrier rate?
> 
> Let see how it turns out tomorrow. It looks like you did a small area to experiment in the backyard, which is a great approach.
Click to expand...

Used a NI surfactant. Rate was 4oz FS/gal water, surfactant I typically don't measure as closely but use around 2 tbsp/gal water.

Certainly did do a small area, happy I did. Looked a little closer at it today and it seems the tips are just orangish...going to give it a cut when morning dew drys and see if the "orangish stuff" cuts off.


----------



## Babaganoosh

I did three 1000sf sections the other day at three different rates.

2oz, 3oz, and 4 oz.

I also used citric acid and ammonium sulphate. It was a 1-2-1 ratio with the iron, citric, and ammonium. I did the applications in the evening. The next day it rained and washed off the application. Daytime temperature got up to around 85 degrees. My turf type is tttf.

2oz rate. There was little change. Maybe a slight darkening.

3 oz rate. Definitely a darker green but some areas of greyish turf

4oz rate. Lots of greyish turf. Unsightly.

I may try a 2.5 oz rate but we'll see. I did apply fert with iron about 15 days prior. Local milo clone called OceanGro. Maybe I didn't see much change with the 2oz rate due to that previous app?


----------



## g-man

The rain helped not causing more damage. I think the rate of FS of 2oz/ksqft (equal to 0.4oz of Fe/ksqft) should be around the max for a cool season lawn that is already green. A 1oz/ksqft of FS (0.2oz of Fe/ksqft) is my normal.


----------



## Babaganoosh

g-man said:


> The rain helped not causing more damage. I think the rate of FS of 2oz/ksqft (equal to 0.4oz of Fe/ksqft) should be around the max for a cool season lawn that is already green. A 1oz/ksqft of FS (0.2oz of Fe/ksqft) is my normal.


I was going to wash it off when I got home from work the next day around 130 pm but the rain did it around 11am.

If that's the case I'm not even going to do a 2.5 oz test. I took pics and I sent the drone up for aerial pics but it's hard to see the color difference between the green and the greyish areas.


----------



## hkfan45

How often can I apply this to St. Augustine grass? I'm struggling to get my grass looking dark green/blue and I've tried everything without much success.


----------



## Drewmey

hkfan45 said:


> How often can I apply this to St. Augustine grass? I'm struggling to get my grass looking dark green/blue and I've tried everything without much success.


My understanding is that you can keep applying until you get the response you want. It will not harm the turf to even apply back to back applications. If you go to far though, the turf will turn greyish and then blackish. But it will not cause permanent damage. It'll simply mow off as it grows. I would suggest decreasing the dosage as you get closer to the color response that you want. And I would also suggest starting lower. 1.5-2.5 oz seems to work well for me even though I saw posts early on of people using 4oz iron sulfate per thousand sf.


----------



## hkfan45

Drewmey said:


> hkfan45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How often can I apply this to St. Augustine grass? I'm struggling to get my grass looking dark green/blue and I've tried everything without much success.
> 
> 
> 
> My understanding is that you can keep applying until you get the response you want. It will not harm the turf to even apply back to back applications. If you go to far though, the turf will turn greyish and then blackish. But it will not cause permanent damage. It'll simply mow off as it grows. I would suggest decreasing the dosage as you get closer to the color response that you want. And I would also suggest starting lower. 1.5-2.5 oz seems to work well for me even though I saw posts early on of people using 4oz iron sulfate per thousand sf.
Click to expand...

so, I did one app yesterday at 4oz/M. I noticed that the very tip (approx 1/8")of the grass blade is gray/black, but the rest of the grass blade is still not dark green. Will the FE migrate down the blade, or is this the extent? FYI, I applied this with my backpack sprayer and not a hose end sprayer.


----------



## g-man

@hkfan45 some of Texas soils are very high in pH which makes iron not as available to the roots. Foliar should help you. I don't know of the rate for SA. If someone doesn't jump in with a rate, then start low(eg. 1oz) and see how it responds.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

My first bag of FEature is to arrive today. I read this entire thread and just want to make sure I don't screw something up. Couple questions:
1. Seems the consensus is 2oz by weight of FEature per gallon of water for 1000 sq ft. Is that correct?
2. A surfactant is not necessary but some use it. Is NIS the recommended surfactant?
3. Spray in the morning with dew on the ground or use marking dye if not confident in ones ability to spray consistent. Correct?
4. Can Celsius be tank mixed with the FEature since I will be blanket spraying?

Thanks for any advice. I'm really wanting this to go smoothly. I have calibrated my sprayer so I feel confident in my walking speed just not so much in my ability to stay in a straight line. I will probably use marking dye the first couple times.


----------



## g-man

@TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.

2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.

I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


----------



## hkfan45

g-man said:


> @hkfan45 some of Texas soils are very high in pH which makes iron not as available to the roots. Foliar should help you. I don't know of the rate for SA. If someone doesn't jump in with a rate, then start low(eg. 1oz) and see how it responds.


Think putting peat moss on the grass would help? I've heard it reduces the pH level.


----------



## g-man

@hkfan45 can you mix the peat moss with the soil? It will need a large qty to change the composition of the soil.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

g-man said:


> @TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.
> 
> 2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


Didn't even think about that. Thanks for catching that. I'll wait a couple weeks before putting out the FEature. I'll adjust the amount too. Man this place is amazing. No way I could do without it.


----------



## hkfan45

g-man said:


> @hkfan45 can you mix the peat moss with the soil? It will need a large qty to change the composition of the soil.


not really. just thought to use it as a thin top dressing.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

g-man said:


> @TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.
> 
> 2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


Man I just reread the last sentence. I thought you were listing herbicides. You got me. To quote Dan Aykroyd in Tommy Boy "Savor the flavor, because it sure as hell won't happen again." Actually it will probably happen a lot. I can be pretty dumb at times.


----------



## Dkrem

g-man said:


> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


As a Mechanical Engineer I laughed pretty good.


----------



## Xoque

Dkrem said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.
> 
> 
> 
> As a Mechanical Engineer I laughed pretty good.
Click to expand...

That's actually pretty funny.


----------



## Stuofsci02

Hey guys.. Anyone adding FAS to their 2-4D applications... I have a Reno that I did last fall with quite a bit of broad leaf in it now... I am going to hit it with Par-3, but was thinking of mixing FAS if i can do it as a single app...


----------



## hkfan45

When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?


----------



## Stuofsci02

hkfan45 said:


> When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?


Once the ferrous oxidizes it turns orange brown... This should happen very quickly in aerated water from the tap...


----------



## Xoque

hkfan45 said:


> When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?


I assume you're adding citric acid to lower the pH but the FS lowers the pH already if that is your objective.


----------



## Dkrem

hkfan45 said:


> When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?


How did you incorporate those three ingredients into the water?


----------



## Jimefam

g-man said:


> @TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.
> 
> 2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


Wow so to do 12.5ksq ft will need about 6lbs? Seeing 1lb online for $20 seems like this gets pricey pretty fast at $120 per application or am i reading something wrong?


----------



## g-man

In the first post of this thread, MQ shared an online link for 25lb for $50. That's $2/lb, therefore $12 per application for your lawn.

You can find local sources for FS and it will be cheaper.


----------



## Jimefam

g-man said:


> In the first post of this thread, MQ shared an online link for 25lb for $50. That's $2/lb, therefore $12 per application for your lawn.
> 
> You can find local sources for FS and it will be cheaper.


Gotcha so the hell with buying feature lol. Will get that order in asap and if i was going to try and source it locally where would I look? Checked domyown which is close to me but they dont sell it. Thank you.


----------



## hkfan45

Dkrem said:


> hkfan45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> How did you incorporate those three ingredients into the water?
Click to expand...

First, I dissolved the citric acid into warm water. Then added AS. Finally, added FS last.


----------



## Dkrem

Jimefam said:


> Gotcha so the hell with buying feature lol. Will get that order in asap and if i was going to try and source it locally where would I look? Checked domyown which is close to me but they dont sell it. Thank you.


My local siteOne does not carry it, but it is in their catalog, 50# bag.


----------



## Dkrem

hkfan45 said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hkfan45 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I mix citric acid, AS, and FS, with water, the mix is a dark yellow. It is not blue, as others have said. Is this a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> How did you incorporate those three ingredients into the water?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> First, I dissolved the citric acid into warm water. Then added AS. Finally, added FS last.
Click to expand...

Yeah that is correct, I'm guessing you let each completely dissolve before the next. Might need more Citric in the mix for lower pH before the FS is added. You could have some very alkaline water, like I do.


----------



## Jimefam

Ok so I actually got lucky and a local member of this forum had a bag each of the FS and AS posted in the first post and he wanted to sell them. Got them cheap today and going to spray tonight with my first PGR application. A couple people on here mentioned that spraying with PGR called for lowering the dosage? Is that the case or not? Also i am pretty lousy with the sprayer so i will probably start at 75% of the given recipe and see how that goes first. Is there an order to mixing things with the PGR or just throw it all in and agitate? I got about 12,500sq ft of turf and a echo backpack sprayer. How much of each thing should i add(just to be sure i am not messing things up).


----------



## Pete1313

Jimefam said:


> Is there an order to mixing things with the PGR or just throw it all in and agitate?


Add the ammonium sulfate and PGR first and then add the ferrous sulfate last. The ammonium sulfate will drop the spray tank PH alittle as well as prevent any hard water antagonism. The PGR (assuming you use T-Nex) will drop the spray tank PH as well. I'm not sure what your water PH is or how hard, but at a higher PH the non chelated iron app might not be as effective. By adding the AMS and PGR first, you might see better iron uptake.


----------



## hkfan45

How long should I keep the solution on the lawn after spraying BEFORE i turn on the sprinklers to water it in? Wait for color to change? a day? 3 days?


----------



## Kaba

hkfan45 said:


> First, I dissolved the citric acid into warm water. Then added AS. Finally, added FS last.


This is the best way. I learned the hard way, dissolve the CA first - the stuff I had took forever. Then let the AS dissolve, which also can be slow. FS always dissolved fast for me.

For what it's worth I have been using the ratios from the greencounty labels.


----------



## Wlodyd

How much citric acid are you using? I can't seem to find it in this thread... I'm sure it's there but skimming from the beginning I can't seem to locate. Assuming the OG recipe of 3.4 oz AS and 4 oz FS.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

hkfan45 said:


> How long should I keep the solution on the lawn after spraying BEFORE i turn on the sprinklers to water it in? Wait for color to change? a day? 3 days?


Excellent question. At least one extension office (Arizona) says spray for thorough coverage. Spray mid-morning (around 10:00) and let the spray dry. Water it in that night (not advisable in fungus territory outside Arizona), the next day, or before the next mow (depends which article you read - the gist is let it dry, give the leaves time to absorb the iron and then wash it off).


----------



## Dkrem

I'd say after 12 hours or so on the grass leaves anything that can be absorbed will have been and you won't waste anything by rinsing the rest in to the soil. I try to spray mine in the evenings before dusk, just before the dew comes, so it can stay wet on the leaves overnight.


----------



## Wlodyd

Wlodyd said:


> How much citric acid are you using? I can't seem to find it in this thread... I'm sure it's there but skimming from the beginning I can't seem to locate. Assuming the OG recipe of 3.4 oz AS and 4 oz FS.


Ok, nm I found it! Looks like good rule of thumb is 2:1 (CA:Fe). I'll probably cut that iron on half to start and go with the 4 oz CA and 2 oz FS. I see the N-Ext GreeneEffect has 10% CA, so will use that as a guide...


----------



## Kaba

Wlodyd said:


> How much citric acid are you using? I can't seem to find it in this thread... I'm sure it's there but skimming from the beginning I can't seem to locate. Assuming the OG recipe of 3.4 oz AS and 4 oz FS.


GreeNe EfFect is (per label):
7% N (from urea not AMS)
3% Sulfur (from FAS)
6% Iron (from FAS) 
10% Citric Acid

This is applied at a total rate of 8 fl oz per ksf for cool season (rates can be 3-12oz however). So I use 8 fl oz as my base rate to put down 2.5oz of 20% FAS per ksf (giving 6% iron per ksf). That gives me about 0.8oz of CA and 2.8oz of AMS (21-0-0).

I calculated these based on a 1 gallon mix, these weights are based upon a gallon of water (I didn't actually calculate the weight of each substance to get the values scientific).


----------



## palum19

Hey everyone, excited to become a member! I have a question pertaining to ferrous sulfate monohydrate. At the end of last season I was able to grab $1 bags of Lillys Moss Out. I know that its 33% ferrous sulfate monohydrate and the rest filler. Before I buy ferrous sulfate heptahydrate, I was wondering if monohydrate would work at all? Is it a dissolving issue or something more involved than that?


----------



## g-man

@palum19 it works, just adjust your rate to accommodate the higher iron content.


----------



## Pete1313

I had a hard time dissolving monohydrate.. as in it wouldn't dissolve at all. Not sure about the lillys moss out brand though. Ended up returning the bag I had as my supplier said it should work, but didn't and he couldn't get heptahydrate anymore. The monohydrate I tried was the QC Diamond Brand.


----------



## palum19

g-man said:


> @palum19 it works, just adjust your rate to accommodate the higher iron content.





Pete1313 said:


> I had a hard time dissolving monohydrate.. as in it wouldn't dissolve at all. Not sure about the lillys moss out brand though. Ended up returning the bag I had as my supplier said it should work, but didn't and he couldn't get heptahydrate anymore. The monohydrate I tried was the QC Diamond Brand.


Thank you both for the information. I will test it out this weekend!


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Ordered 5# of each off Amazon, for my small yard calculated even if i sprayed every 3 weeks for 6 months(unlikely with how our weather works) i'd get 2 years of Apps out of it.

Surprised there are no before and after photos anywhere in this thread though, I've had pretty good luck with the Southern Ag Chelated Iron but its also quite expensive compared to this. I've had mixed results with Iron and how dark my lawn gets, ive put down Urea based fert from our local Ag store that says 10% Iron and dont see much color change. Milo gives me decent results, the Screaming Green sample i got last year gave me by far the darkest green but no one sells it within a 3 hour drive of me.

Hoping this gets me closer to the Screaming green.


----------



## Babaganoosh

I did a test of 2, 3, and 4 ounces fe per 1000. Did 3 sections next to each other. I took some pics with my phone and with my drone. For whatever reason the color changes were pretty visible to the eye but not the camera lens.

If I did it again I'd leave an untreated section between each treated section to show the results better.


----------



## Jimefam

Babaganoosh said:


> I did a test of 2, 3, and 4 ounces fe per 1000. Did 3 sections next to each other. I took some pics with my phone and with my drone. For whatever reason the color changes were pretty visible to the eye but not the camera lens.
> 
> If I did it again I'd leave an untreated section between each treated section to show the results better.


Well which looked best?


----------



## Babaganoosh

2oz looked best. The 3 and the 4 both turned the turf grey.

This is cool season grass by the way.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Don't forget temp affects uptake. Hotter means more uptake.


----------



## g-man

@Jimefam best rate will depend on your current lawn. If iron is not deficient or pH closer to 7, then you will need less than someone with 8.1 pH. It is better to start low and go up and test in a small area.


----------



## Jimefam

g-man said:


> @Jimefam best rate will depend on your current lawn. If iron is not deficient or pH closer to 7, then you will need less than someone with 8.1 pH. It is better to start low and go up and test in a small area.


Gotcha. I sprayed the 4oz of FS and 3.4oz of AS as per the recipe here almost a week ago along with my first PGR app at .75oz per 1k. Left the next day on business but the wife says it looks much darker green. Headed back tomorrow morning so i am eager to see how it did and mow it to see how well the pgr worked.

How long do the effects last? Green keeper app says i need to respray 7/9 which is 2 weeks after first app but guessing too soon for another FAS app.


----------



## thegrassisgreener

Thoughts on if this would produce similar results? I'm already using the N-ext Bio-Stimulant pack and was considering this for the extra iron. Any pros or cons?


----------



## Kaba

@thegrassisgreener the formula I use is based on 7-0-0 label, so yes definitely will produce similar results. I would follow the advice here and start on the lower rate for your grass type and work your way up.


----------



## sanders4617

g-man said:


> @TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.
> 
> 2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.


I've seen a lot of people use the 1oz-2oz rate on Bermuda with great results (FEature)... 8oz seems high? Or is it that Bermuda can tolerate that? Or are we talking different products?


----------



## TN Hawkeye

sanders4617 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @TN Hawkeye you said you applied microgreen in another thread. Don't double up on iron.
> 
> 2oz is safe for cool season, for Bermuda 8oz/ksqft. I don't do surfactant. Do a mow and follow the stripes to keep it straight.
> 
> I don't know about using Celsius, Fahrenheit or Kelvin.
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a lot of people use the 1oz-2oz rate on Bermuda with great results (FEature)... 8oz seems high? Or is it that Bermuda can tolerate that? Or are we talking different products?
Click to expand...

I sprayed about 2.5oz per gallon per 1000 sq ft about 9 days ago. Saw very good results but they seem to be wearing off already. Would a higher rate produce longer lasting results or just deeper green for the same amount of time? I know there is a chance of blackening as you increase your rate.


----------



## g-man

@sanders4617 I dont have experience with bermuda. @Mightyquinn formula for Bermuda is 4oz of FS, which is 8oz of Feature or 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft. I don't know at what frequency he applies it or the Bermuda type he has (419, tifgrand, tifturf,etc).

Some cool season members almost killed their lawn, so I've been recommending start low and increase from there.


----------



## Mightyquinn

g-man said:


> @sanders4617 I dony have experience with bermuda. @Mightyquinn formula for Bermuda is 4oz of FS, which is 8oz of Feature or 0.8oz of Fe/ksqft. I don't know at what frequency he applies it or the Bermuda type he has (419, tifgrand, tifturf,etc).
> 
> Some cool season members almost killed their lawn, so I've been recommending start low and increase from there.


I apply FEature at 2oz/M on my bermuda every 2-3 weeks when I apply my PGR :thumbup: For the FAS I would go with 4oz of Ferrous Sulfate with 3.4oz of Ammonium Sulfate per 1,000 sq/ft.


----------



## ryeguy

Delmarva Keith said:


> Don't forget temp affects uptake. Hotter means more uptake.


Hmm..I tried googling for this and couldn't find anything. The only thing related to temperature I can find is the common advice of not applying in high temps because it can be phytotoxic. Is that what you meant, or have you found/read that you can use less iron in hot weather for the same effect?


----------



## Sinclair

Can anyone comment as to when peak green-blue occurs after a standard rate application?

I have a break in the heat coming up early next week, and a gathering at the house next Saturday - hoping to get the lawn nice and dark.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

ryeguy said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Don't forget temp affects uptake. Hotter means more uptake.
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm..I tried googling for this and couldn't find anything. The only thing related to temperature I can find is the common advice of not applying in high temps because it can be phytotoxic. Is that what you meant, or have you found/read that you can use less iron in hot weather for the same effect?
Click to expand...

Well, that's rattling around somewhere in deep folds of the brain. I went looking for where I read this and this article might have been it.
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/1999feb1a.pdf
They mention increased phytotoxicity at higher temps, but I'd swear I also read somewhere else there was increased uptake measured with increased temp which would explain the increased phytotoxicity. If I can find that I'll post it also.
Either way, watch the rates at higher temps.

To answer the question, my recollection is less iron for the same effect.


----------



## Grasshopper

Just doing a quick double check before I order that 
these are the correct chemicals.

Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate - FeSO4*7H2O - 20% Iron - Very Soluble - 1 Pound by Alpha Chemicals https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODUI76/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_W4NmDb0S0A8Y2

Ammonium Sulfate - (NH4)2SO4 - 1 Pound https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODPGB4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_L5NmDbVHH0XFQ


----------



## Drewmey

Grasshopper said:


> Just doing a quick double check before I order that
> these are the correct chemicals.
> 
> Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate - FeSO4*7H2O - 20% Iron - Very Soluble - 1 Pound by Alpha Chemicals https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODUI76/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_W4NmDb0S0A8Y2
> 
> Ammonium Sulfate - (NH4)2SO4 - 1 Pound https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODPGB4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_L5NmDbVHH0XFQ


I haven't tried that brands but it shouldn't matter. Those are indeed the right items. And also Citric acid being optional it sounds like.


----------



## Kaba

Grasshopper said:


> Just doing a quick double check before I order that
> these are the correct chemicals.
> 
> Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate - FeSO4*7H2O - 20% Iron - Very Soluble - 1 Pound by Alpha Chemicals https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODUI76/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_W4NmDb0S0A8Y2
> 
> Ammonium Sulfate - (NH4)2SO4 - 1 Pound https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007ODPGB4/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_L5NmDbVHH0XFQ


I use those exact products plus CA. CA is totally worth the extra $10.


----------



## Grasshopper

Thanks for the replies.
Yes, I will also be ordering CA to mix with them.


----------



## g-man

@Grasshopper check your local grocery store. Citric acid is sold near the canning sections.


----------



## Grasshopper

g-man said:


> @grasshopper check your local grocery store. Citric acid is sold near the canning sections.


Thanks for the info!


----------



## Drewmey

Just noticed that a 50lbs bag of iron sulfate heptahydrate I bought at a local store has an expiration date of 11/2020. What is everyone's thought on iron sulfate "expiring"? Seems like a strange concept to me. If it's a real thing, I may be selling 10-20 lbs bags on the marketplace! Haha. No way I'll use that much in a year and a half.


----------



## Babaganoosh

Drewmey said:


> Just noticed that a 50lbs bag of iron sulfate heptahydrate I bought at a local store has an expiration date of 11/2020. What is everyone's thought on iron sulfate "expiring"? Seems like a strange concept to me. If it's a real thing, I may be selling 10-20 lbs bags on the marketplace! Haha. No way I'll use that much in a year and a half.


States are required to put expiration dates on any product that can be used for consumption. That's why here in NJ you see water and million year old Himalayan salt with a 2 year expiration date.

Keep it cool and dry and it should last a long time.


----------



## Babaganoosh

I forget when I applied this stuff but it was over a month ago. In the morning light you can still see the difference. I had done test areas.

Look along the fence. There are two trees after the shed. I stopped applying in a straight line at the trees. You can see the difference where I stopped applying if you look at the turf past the trees. You can even see the domination line. I dominated myself.

Edit to add. Yes it's slight darker due to the maple tree shadow but you can still see the overall difference.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Sinclair said:


> Can anyone comment as to when peak green-blue occurs after a standard rate application?
> 
> I have a break in the heat coming up early next week, and a gathering at the house next Saturday - hoping to get the lawn nice and dark.


I sprayed mine on June 30th and had nice color on July 4th.


----------



## Drewmey

Babaganoosh said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just noticed that a 50lbs bag of iron sulfate heptahydrate I bought at a local store has an expiration date of 11/2020. What is everyone's thought on iron sulfate "expiring"? Seems like a strange concept to me. If it's a real thing, I may be selling 10-20 lbs bags on the marketplace! Haha. No way I'll use that much in a year and a half.
> 
> 
> 
> States are required to put expiration dates on any product that can be used for consumption. That's why here in NJ you see water and million year old Himalayan salt with a 2 year expiration date.
> 
> Keep it cool and dry and it should last a long time.
Click to expand...

Interesting. It is literally exactly a (2) year window from the listed manufactured date and the expiration date. Sounds like it is mostly a policy/law thing more so than a half life.


----------



## Grasshopper

What exactly is citric acid's role in the mix?

I can't seem to find specifics whilst skimming this thread...


----------



## Drewmey

Grasshopper said:


> What exactly is citric acid's role in the mix?
> 
> I can't seem to find specifics whilst skimming this thread...


Sounds like the iron is less likely to oxidize with citric acid. Both due the lower pH and a weak chelation with the citric acid. Therefore it is absorbed better, as I don't think oxidized iron absorbs into plants as well.


----------



## Dkrem

Drewmey said:


> Sounds like the iron is less likely to oxidize with citric acid. Both due the lower pH and a weak chelation with the citric acid. Therefore it is absorbed better, as I don't think oxidized iron absorbs into plants as well.


Basically yes, any only really needed if your water chemistry needs it. If you mix up the solution and it stays green-blue then good, if it turns orange then you need the citric acid before adding the FS.


----------



## MMoore

Mightyquinn said:


> *The Ferrous Sulfate is the MAIN ingredient for the dark green color.*
> 
> *The Ammonium Sulfate basically acts as a booster for the Ferrous Sulfate and will enhance/speed up the greening process.*


ive seen some reference to it being used in this thread.... but is there anything special about the AS that makes it enhanced or would another type of foliar N (like urea) do the same thing?

Ammonium Sulfate is a special product it seems in Canada so the price is wildly different for AS than Urea. $14/pound of AS and about the same for a 50lb bag of urea.


----------



## ktgrok

My take is that traditionally the understanding is that Ammonium is available for the plant immediately, and Urea requires breakdown by soil organisms. Although someone on here posted that there may be new data showing that Urea is also available for foliar uptake, but I could be remembering that wrong.


----------



## ktgrok

Also @thegrassfactor has a video on his youtube channel, maybe more than one, about various forms of nitrogen and the differences.


----------



## MMoore

I guess im wondering if its just the N that helps it take off. I will use AS if that's just what it is... but if its just a source of N and being that im (going to be) spraying it consistently with PGR every 2...3 weeks dependent of the GDD uptake availability isn't as much of a concern.


----------



## Dkrem

Given that price difference I'd use urea without blinking and see how it goes.


----------



## MMoore

reading more into it,@Greendoc mentioned its the acidity of the AS? urea would not have that effect. that's why some people are using citric acid in lieu of AS?

though im sure some N also contributes.

I would think an app like this would be decent for my KBG with PGR in the mix...thoughts?

2oz/k Fe
4oz/k Citric acid
2oz/k urea

2oz Aneuw PGR

Gallon/k carrier.


----------



## Drewmey

MMoore said:


> reading more into it, @Greendoc mentioned its the acidity of the AS? urea would not have that effect. that's why some people are using citric acid in lieu of AS?


I think the acidity of the AS helps with pH. But that is not the only reason to use Citric Acid. Not only does it lower the pH, but it actually chelates the iron. However, it sounds like it is a fairly weak chelation, so I am not sure yet if it is worth the extra money.



MMoore said:


> 2oz/k Fe
> 4oz/k Citric acid
> 2oz/k urea


You are correct that the final ratio you should be shooting for is more CA than Fe. 7-0-0 Green Effect is more of a 1.67:1 than a 2:1 ratio. But the point is, I think that is the general area/ratio we should be shooting for. However, remember that Iron Sulfate is only 20% Fe. So when you read the Green Effect labe (6% Fe & 10% CA)l, you are not reading 6% Iron Sulfate, but instead 6% Iron. So if you are going to use 2oz of Iron Sulfate, you are really getting .4oz of Fe. Therefore, you should only be using .8oz of CA with 2oz of Iron Sulfate. I was actually working on my own cost analysis of trying to make 5 gallons of 7-0-0 Green Effect. Here is what I came up with so far.



My only concern is...is this ok to mix in bulk and measure out as needed? In other words, "will it last" for a year or two if I keep it sealed? If not, my plan is to just downsize these measurements and make it each time (what I have been doing). Therefore, I suggest something closer to this:

2oz/k Fe
.7oz/k Citric acid
.9oz/k urea or 2oz AS


----------



## MMoore

yeah I was hoping to weigh and bag a handful of these mixes in ziplocks and put them on the shelf for easy, quick applications.

I would do the first one live and then if it works I will baggie up my mix's for later on.

is there concern with doing less carrier with these mixs? i.e., if I do more like 0.5-0.7gal/k is that a problem? I like to hustle when I can.


----------



## Kaba

The concern for me with premixing the powders are having them dissolve in water, may not dissolve enough to spray nicely.

If found CA in hot water first, than AS and finally FAS. Lots of agitation and a slow breakdown. Doing them all at once may or may not lead to clumping at the bottom.

The carriers were selected to maximize the iron, presumably at the most cost effective and "safe for a variety of lawns" rate in the case of Greene effect. They wouldn't add the carriers if they didn't think they added value, as they just raise costs all around of the product. I don't see a harm in less carrier in terms of risk, but it may cost you more in the long run if your applications aren't as effective.

Experiment with how your particular lawn reacts to figure out what's best for you is the best advice I can muster.


----------



## Harts

@MMoore are you sure about the 2oz rate for Aneuw?

I'm going to be adding FAS and Urea to my PGR apps.


----------



## MMoore

Harts said:


> @MMoore are you sure about the 2oz rate for Aneuw?
> 
> I'm going to be adding FAS and Urea to my PGR apps.


You caught me lol 0.2oz aneuw. My b.


----------



## Harts

@MMoore my first app was at 0.18 and I still have some suppression after 3 weeks. I'm going to cut my next app by 30% and apply at 0.12oz/M.


----------



## MMoore

Harts said:


> @MMoore my first app was at 0.18 and I still have some suppression after 3 weeks. I'm going to cut my next app by 30% and apply at 0.12oz/M.


Interesting.

I've been lowering my cut the last few weeks. My grass is thick and green af but basically isn't growing up. Few blades here and there or I wouldn't even bother cutting it. Using 0.2oz/k over 300gdd.

I'm cutting on setting 2.5 on my hrx. I think that's around 2.75"


----------



## MMoore

would a little extra ammonium sulfate hurt the lawn?

in my particular instance, I would be 8.4oz of FS and 7.15oz of AS. being that the bags come in 1lb or 5lb would I be ok just to use 8oz of each or is it important to keep it at those ratios?


----------



## Sinclair

MMoore said:


> would a little extra ammonium sulfate hurt the lawn?
> 
> in my particular instance, I would be 8.4oz of FS and 7.15oz of AS. being that the bags come in 1lb or 5lb would I be ok just to use 8oz of each or is it important to keep it at those ratios?


8oz each is fine.

I did my last app 2oz FS / 2oz AS, in 2 gallons. Easy to remember.


----------



## john5246

Dkrem said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the iron is less likely to oxidize with citric acid. Both due the lower pH and a weak chelation with the citric acid. Therefore it is absorbed better, as I don't think oxidized iron absorbs into plants as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Basically yes, any only really needed if your water chemistry needs it. If you mix up the solution and it stays green-blue then good, if it turns orange then you need the citric acid before adding the FS.
Click to expand...

mine turned orange right away, how much citric acid you recommend in the one gallon of water we dissolve the 4oz of iron sulfate in?

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Moss-Out-1-Gal-Moss-Out-for-Lawns-100099156/100138813

Is the above a good alternative to the powder iron sulfate? It's 35% in 1 gallon concentrate for moss control.


----------



## Dkrem

john5246 said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like the iron is less likely to oxidize with citric acid. Both due the lower pH and a weak chelation with the citric acid. Therefore it is absorbed better, as I don't think oxidized iron absorbs into plants as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Basically yes, any only really needed if your water chemistry needs it. If you mix up the solution and it stays green-blue then good, if it turns orange then you need the citric acid before adding the FS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> mine turned orange right away, how much citric acid you recommend in the one gallon of water we dissolve the 4oz of iron sulfate in?
Click to expand...

All depends on the pH and other chemistry of your water really. I'd keep mixing up little one gallon test batches with increasing amounts of citric acid until you find what doesn't turn orange.


----------



## john5246

Dkrem said:


> john5246 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically yes, any only really needed if your water chemistry needs it. If you mix up the solution and it stays green-blue then good, if it turns orange then you need the citric acid before adding the FS.
> 
> 
> 
> mine turned orange right away, how much citric acid you recommend in the one gallon of water we dissolve the 4oz of iron sulfate in?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All depends on the pH and other chemistry of your water really. I'd keep mixing up little one gallon test batches with increasing amounts of citric acid until you find what doesn't turn orange.
Click to expand...

if it turns orange how much does that lower the effectiveness of the iron sulfate as it has reacted to form rust


----------



## Harts

I don't use citric acid and my mixture turns orange the minute I add the FS. I see no decrease in the effectiveness:


----------



## john5246

Harts said:


> I don't use citric acid and my mixture turns orange the minute I add the FS. I see no decrease in the effectiveness:


I'm trying to get my KBG as green as yours. I applied 4oz dissolved in 1 gallon over 2k sqft. Once I get to the green I want what amount should I use to maintain it?

I have midnight/bewitched mix but without iron it looks like any old grass in the neighborhood to be honest (as far as color)


----------



## Harts

@j@john5246 I use 2oz FS and 1.7oz AS in 1 gallon per M. I spray along with my PGR app approx every 3 weeks.

The FAS definitely helps but it only enhances a strong base. Getting rid of dead grass buried in the canopy, getting you grass thick and dense. I believe the PGR aids in the colour enhancement as well.

Sorry I can't give you a more scientific answer than that!


----------



## MMoore

yep. PGR helps.

my lawn was the only lawn this morning holding the dew... for better or for worse. none of my neighbours would be using PGR so I associate that as a PGR trait. the way the grass uses water with PGR is way different and I think that's what gives the change in color.


----------



## john5246

Harts said:


> @[email protected] I use 2oz FS and 1.7oz AS in 1 gallon per M. I spray along with my PGR app approx every 3 weeks.
> 
> The FAS definitely helps but it only enhances a strong base. Getting rid of dead grass buried in the canopy, getting you grass thick and dense. I believe the PGR aids in the colour enhancement as well.
> 
> Sorry I can't give you a more scientific answer than that!


I don't think I'll be using AS I'm going to be putting down Urea at 1lb (which is ~ 1/2 lb of N) per 1000sqft. That's plenty to push the dead stuff as well as the last bit of grass that was affected by rust out.

So I"m thinking stick with 4oz over the 2,000 sqft till I get the desired green then try to maintain it with maybe half that ever 2wks. I'm taking slow because I had already applied ironite and they say to limit the applications of iron per year.


----------



## MMoore

john5246 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> @[email protected] I use 2oz FS and 1.7oz AS in 1 gallon per M. I spray along with my PGR app approx every 3 weeks.
> 
> The FAS definitely helps but it only enhances a strong base. Getting rid of dead grass buried in the canopy, getting you grass thick and dense. I believe the PGR aids in the colour enhancement as well.
> 
> Sorry I can't give you a more scientific answer than that!
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I'll be using AS I'm going to be putting down Urea at 1lb (which is ~ 1/2 lb of N) per 1000sqft. That's plenty to push the dead stuff as well as the last bit of grass that was affected by rust out.
> 
> So I"m thinking stick with 4oz over the 2,000 sqft till I get the desired green then try to maintain it with maybe half that ever 2wks. I'm taking slow because I had already applied ironite and they say to limit the applications of iron per year.
Click to expand...

im not sure just doubling the cold season rate of Fe and omitting the As will be the best way to go about things.


----------



## Dkrem

john5246 said:


> I don't think I'll be using AS I'm going to be putting down Urea at 1lb (which is ~ 1/2 lb of N) per 1000sqft. That's plenty to push the dead stuff as well as the last bit of grass that was affected by rust out.


Keep in mind the AS in the mixture is there to encourage foliar uptake of the iron.


----------



## Sinclair

MMoore said:


> im not sure just doubling the cold season rate of Fe and omitting the As will be the best way to go about things.


He said 4oz over 2000 sqft, which is the standard rate.


----------



## MMoore

d'oh. not used to reading it that way lol


----------



## Pete1313

Fwiw, I have been applying at almost 4oz/M of FS for my last 5 apps which are reapplied every time I spray PGR(GDD model). Ymmv and it is not suggested to start at that rate, especially for a NoMix lawn, but is working on the bewitched KBG in my yard.


----------



## MMoore

do you guys think there are any benefits to the grass of the FAS apps besides just color?

would it prevent fungus or encourage wider blades of the grass or something?


----------



## Harts

@john5246 you can certainly omit the AS. The main purpose as Dkrem said, is to act as a booster to the FS.

Yes, the AS has N in it. But at the rates we are talking about spraying, the AS would add less than 0.1lb N to our overall total.


----------



## Pete1313

@MMoore, there is some current work being done that iron sulfate might help reduce dollar spot. Maybe @g-man has some more info?
https://www.gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/dollar-spot-iron-sulfate


----------



## MMoore

just committed to FAS apps. made my order on amazon.

heres to FAS + PGR +UREA apps. FAS is one of my pricier apps. going to try it at half rate and see how it changes things up for me.

1oz Fe, 1oz AS, 0.2oz Aneuw.... unsure what im doing with urea for now.

Is there a mix process for these items... or can you just dump it all in and mix? @Harts


----------



## Harts

I've used both hot and cold water. Neither gave me a greater benefit than the other:

Urea then mix

Aneuw then mix

AS then mix

FS then mix

Once you add the FS, depending on your water PH, the mixture will turn orange. Don't worry about it. Some people add citric acid to balance out the PH. I do not.


----------



## MMoore

so no go on measuring it all in a bowl and then tossing it all in at once?


----------



## Kaba

It works so much better for me letting them breakdown one at a time, hot water speeds it up in my experience. Was less clumping in the jar before I add it to my sprayer


----------



## Harts

@MMoore I would do them one at a time.


----------



## canadian lawn

I'm a bit confused, the urea is dissolved and mixed with the FAS and PGR or applied as a granular?


----------



## Harts

You can apply as a foliar or granular. It can be spoon fed and mixed with FAS and PGR or applied on its own.


----------



## Pete1313

@Harts, I see you mentioned earlier you use 2oz/M FS and 1.7oz/M AS. How much urea are you putting in the tank as well?


----------



## Harts

@Pete1313 my last two apps of urea have been granular at 0.5lb N. I was unsure of how much carrier to use to spray that much N with pgr and fas.


----------



## Pete1313

@Harts, gotcha. That would be too much N to mix with the PGR and FAS for foliar. I'm due for another PGR app tomorrow and am thinking about putting some AS into the mix along with the FS, and urea.


----------



## Harts

@Pete1313 how much urea are you thinking? 0.2 N?


----------



## davegravy

I have FS and Urea but no AS. If I use dissolved granular urea instead of AS but at a reduced amount so that the total amount of N is the same, will I get the same boosting effect? Or is there something special about AS that means you can't substitute like this?


----------



## Pete1313

Harts said:


> Pete1313 how much urea are you thinking? 0.2 N?


I've done .2 lbs/M of N from urea in .9 gal/M carrier. That was only adding FS though and no AS.


----------



## Harts

@davegravy that's beyond my expertise. I don't want to give you false information.


----------



## Kaba

davegravy said:


> I have FS and Urea but no AS. If I use dissolved granular urea instead of AS but at a reduced amount so that the total amount of N is the same, will I get the same boosting effect? Or is there something special about AS that means you can't substitute like this?


7-0-0 GreeneEffect uses Urea. I think @g-man spoke about AMS vs Urea in this thread somewhere a few months back (or maybe I am imagining), something along the lines AMS absorbs better but Urea still works. I tried searching for the information that I read but couldn't find it.


----------



## g-man

I think ferromac also uses urea. You can also just do FS.

But there is something that we forget to discuss, the carrier. My water source is very hard (~24 grains). I also don't know all the additives they add thru the year. Calcium in the water will affect the FS. By adding AMS, it helps reduce this effect. AMS also brings something else to the party, sulfur (not elemental sulfur). Sulfur is also used in making chlorophyll. Chlrophyll is what makes the plant green. So FAS brings iron + sulfur + nitrogen (growth).

This year I switched to using soft water in my tank mixes.


----------



## g-man

Some good read this morning in regards to iron via soil and foliar.

https://www.gcmonline.com/research/news/iron-fertilizers-soil-solubility

https://twitter.com/GCM_Magazine/status/1171095966994325504

Study behind paywall: https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/aj/abstracts/111/3/1498


----------



## davegravy

So in short non-chelated (FS, for example) should be applied foliarly with adjuvant and left on the leaf for a while.

Otherwise use chelated, and apply it however you want.

Is that a good summary?


----------



## g-man

Not really. For soil, the pH of the soil matters. Foliar always works.


----------



## Drewmey

One question I have always had is whether it is possible for iron to oxidize during mixing and in the act of spraying? I would imagine some. If so, is the amount of loss meaningful? I have been looking into buying citric acid in a bigger quantity to try to help alleviate this problem, but part of me thinks I should just continue to experiment with AS and adding more iron instead of attempting to chelate it since the FS is actually a good bit cheaper per oz than CA for me. I can get 50lbs of FS for $27 locally.


----------



## Grasshopper

Quick question...

Sprayed FAS for the first time yesterday evening.
Will it be ok to leave the FAS on the leaves for almost 24 hours and not water it in myself but wait for the rain forecasted in the evening?

Temperatures have been around 50f overnight and will be a high of 70f today.


----------



## Harts

@Grasshopper you do not need to water it in with the cooler temps.


----------



## MMoore

and you can put it on immediately after a cut, yeah?


----------



## MMoore

I woke up early to cut my lawn so I could spray FAS tonight but my daughter woke up with me and that was the end of that.


----------



## Harts

@MMoore I don't see why you can't cut it. I don't normally have the time to cut and spray back to back but go ahead and do it.


----------



## MMoore

yeah we are having a bbq this weekend. I wanted to get the FAS down this morning but tonight will have to do.

im going to let my PGR go for a while and im going to watch how it rebounds. I might get one more PGR spray this year but maybe not... my kbg mix is growing pretty damn slow. I would be interested to know what types of kbg grasses are in that sod, because some grow a lot slower than others.... especially pronounced with the PGR.


----------



## Drewmey

Grasshopper said:


> Quick question...
> 
> Sprayed FAS for the first time yesterday evening.
> Will it be ok to leave the FAS on the leaves for almost 24 hours and not water it in myself but wait for the rain forecasted in the evening?
> 
> Temperatures have been around 50f overnight and will be a high of 70f today.


I have only been doing this for one year, but I never rinse it off in the spring or fall like every one here. I don't have a sprinkler system and don't water manually unless there's seed down. I know, what a weirdo.

I have noticed darkening in high heat, so I spray FAS a day before forecasted rain when it's summer.


----------



## Grasshopper

Thanks for the quick reply@Harts !

@MMoore I feel you there.. especially with it getting dark earlier now my yard time after the kids go down is getting shorter... I miss mowing at 9pm...


----------



## Pete1313

Drewmey said:


> I never rinse it off in the spring or fall like every one here.


I dont rinse it off either unless the forecasted high temp is going to get close to 85°F.


----------



## JERSEY

Hello everyone.

I have used foiliar apps of Iron before.....primarily Turf Pro which is a 15-0-0 with Iron in a 2.5 gal jug.

I recently came into alot of Moss Out, which is 10% ferrous sulfate, for DIRT cheap. That works well also as a granular app, but MY Question is.........Can I dilute the granular into a liquid and spray it? 2-4oz per gal?


----------



## g-man

Yes you can as long as the product is only ferrous sulfate (no other inert stuff, binders that could plug the nozzle). I would do 2 -4 oz per 1000sqft.


----------



## JERSEY

Thank you G Man.


----------



## ryeguy

How late does everyone do iron apps? Til the very last mow?


----------



## Harts

This is personal preference. Some like to spray up to the very end. Others like a nice dark green for Halloween.

My last app was approx a month ago. The cooler temps and moisture have helped my grass maintain its green.


----------



## NJ-lawn

I usually spray it with my winterizer app.....most satisfying one I do all year.


----------



## Pete1313

Looks like we have the same question going in 2 threads.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=14364#p226152


----------



## AZChemist

Thanks @Mightyquinn for the write up!

I applied FAS for the first time today. The solution instantly oxidized when the FS was added as other have reported. While adding citric acid will slow down the oxidation process when in the mixing tank it will inevitably oxidize rapidly once exposed to oxygen when sprayed. The lower pH will also aid in dissolving the Fe as well (not all of mine would dissolve)

Nonetheless, ill add 7% of citric acid and see how it goes! Thanks for the tip.



Drewmey said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed 21 gal of solution again tonight. Just for fun I tossed in a cup of citric acid with the AS to dissolve before adding the Ferrous Sulfate. The solution stayed blue-green.
> 
> 
> 
> I had the same experience yesterday, no orange. I used .1oz citric acid, 1.4oz ferrous sulfate, .6oz urea per thousand. Wanted to start low and ramp up until I see how my grass reacts. I figured the urea is twice as much nitrogen as ammonium sulfate so I cut the number down.
> 
> So I know 1:14 works as a ratio for citric acid:ferrous sulfate to keep solution blue/green. Could work lower but I only wanted to test on 1ksf and scale doesn't go under .1oz unfortunately.
> 
> Also may have to do with what your tap water is as a starting point.
Click to expand...


----------



## Dkrem

AZChemist said:


> The lower pH will also aid in dissolving the Fe as well (not all of mine would dissolve)
> Nonetheless, ill add 7% of citric acid and see how it goes! Thanks for the tip.


I've been able to dissolve quite a bit into a bucket of hot water then dilute into my sprayer.


----------



## JERSEY

Anyone trying to add color in the winter with ferrous sulfate?

was going to spray some moss, and I thought to ask if anyone is spraying entire lawn to give more color over winter.

thanks


----------



## Stuofsci02

JERSEY said:


> Anyone trying to add color in the winter with ferrous sulfate?
> 
> was going to spray some moss, and I thought to ask if anyone is spraying entire lawn to give more color over winter.
> 
> thanks


Your grass needs to be producing chlorophyll to be green and make use of the iron... For cool season grasses in the winter I don't think it makes much sense as it is dormant..


----------



## JERSEY

My grass is still fairly green.....just now starting to go brownish


----------



## bmw

Does spraying Ferrous Sulfate lower PH levels? Based on my reading ,it does. I would love to spray it on my Centipede and Zoysia but I don't want to lower my PH which is already pretty acidic.


----------



## g-man

@bmw It will not affect your soil pH.


----------



## bmw

g-man said:


> @bmw It will not affect your soil pH.


Great, thanks for the quick reply!


----------



## bmw

g-man said:


> @bmw It will not affect your soil pH.


g-man, I saw this from the greenway biotech website about their Ferrous Sulfate (the water-soluble product referenced in this thread):

﻿2. How long does it take for Ferrous Sulfate to lower the soil pH level?

It really depends on a few factors and it is not the same in all circumstances. For example, it takes longer to lower the soil pH level from 8 to 6 compared to 7 to 6. However, in most cases, you should get your desired pH level after 2-3 weeks.


----------



## g-man

Spraying FAS will not have an effect on soil. You will need to spray at a very high rate that will kill your lawn.

You can apply ferric sulfate directly to the soil and it does have a low acidification effect. This  article  from Purdue compares multiple options for soil application.


----------



## Getting Fat

This and MQ's liquid plan are just inspirational reads for trying the liquid route...

couple of questions (should I have started a new thread?)

Can I mix citric acid, RGS, .5#/M nitrogen from ammonium sulfate, and iron in the same tank and apply at once?

Is there a particular citric acid that should be used for lawns? Seems silly to ask, but weird to buy something that talks about taste and throw er down on the lawn...

Thanks guys


----------



## Kicker

Getting Fat said:


> This and MQ's liquid plan are just inspirational reads for trying the liquid route...
> 
> couple of questions (should I have started a new thread?)
> 
> Can I mix citric acid, RGS, .5#/M nitrogen from ammonium sulfate, and iron in the same tank and apply at once?
> 
> Is there a particular citric acid that should be used for lawns? Seems silly to ask, but weird to buy something that talks about taste and throw er down on the lawn...
> 
> Thanks guys


I found last year that mixing citric acid (as little as .25lb/gal), along with .5#/M of AMS, and FeAture, caused my bermuda to burn quite easily (tip burn). So I resorted to doing them in separate apps. I think it has to do with allowing the feature to dry while the Citric acid should be watered in ASAP.

I just used the milliard 10 lb bag from amazon.

I also would not mix anything with the RGS. With the stories i've heard of people having clumping issues with NEXT products i'd hate to have to discard all of the mixture with the other products due to some material clumping or coagulating with other products. I'd also use a hose end sprayer for an NEXT prodcuts.. but that's just me.


----------



## Harts

Getting Fat said:


> This and MQ's liquid plan are just inspirational reads for trying the liquid route...
> 
> couple of questions (should I have started a new thread?)
> 
> Can I mix citric acid, RGS, .5#/M nitrogen from ammonium sulfate, and iron in the same tank and apply at once?
> 
> Is there a particular citric acid that should be used for lawns? Seems silly to ask, but weird to buy something that talks about taste and throw er down on the lawn...
> 
> Thanks guys


IMO citric acid is not an absolute necessity. Some use it with great results, while I have never used it and have still been impressed with the results of my FAS apps. I would try it without the citric first. You can always get it later on if you feel you need it.


----------



## Dkrem

I added a bit of citric to my spray mix only to keep the ferrous sulfate from oxidizing and turning orange in the tank. My incoming water is high PH which causes that reaction. I think I added about a cup of citric acid powder to 20 gal of water and the ammonium sulfate, that was enough to bring the pH to below 7 and keep the ferrous sulfate nice and pale blue/green when I dissolved it last.


----------



## Harts

Harts said:


> Getting Fat said:
> 
> 
> 
> This and MQ's liquid plan are just inspirational reads for trying the liquid route...
> 
> couple of questions (should I have started a new thread?)
> 
> Can I mix citric acid, RGS, .5#/M nitrogen from ammonium sulfate, and iron in the same tank and apply at once?
> 
> Is there a particular citric acid that should be used for lawns? Seems silly to ask, but weird to buy something that talks about taste and throw er down on the lawn...
> 
> Thanks guys
> 
> 
> 
> IMO citric acid is not an absolute necessity. Some use it with great results, while I have never used it and have still been impressed with the results of my FAS apps. I would try it without the citric first. You can always get it later on if you feel you need it.
Click to expand...

I should clarify that my mixture does turn orange (indicating high PH level), however, I still get good results without the CA. Perhaps I would get a deeper, darker green using CA and lowering the PH level but the results I saw last year were more than satisfactory.


----------



## Pete1313

I'm not exactly sure what causes the spray solution to turn orange, but I'm not convinced it is high PH.

This is a concentrate liquid iron product (Ferromec AC). Out of the jug it is green and the 2.05 PH is right inline with the MSDS. Ferromec AC is pretty much iron sulfate, urea, and sulfuric acid.


This is the PH of my water that goes into the tank. 7.67 PH.


This is the final tank mix of .3 oz/M of T-Nex(also helps acidify the tank), 3.3 oz/M of Ferromec(strong acidifier), and 4 oz/M of urea (does not really alter PH). All in a .9 gal/M carrier. 2.67 PH and orange as can be. 


Not an exact comparison I know since most of the acidifying is from the sulfuric acid. Since that test, I've switched to using ferrous sulfate at 4 oz/M in my tank mixes due to cost. I add only enough Ferromec AC to acidify the tank to around a 5.0 PH now(which is only about .3 oz/gallon) and add it to the tank water before adding the ferrous sulfate. Anyway, with a spray tank PH of 5.0 and using 4oz/M rate of FS the final spray solution is still orange as can be, yet is still very effective.


----------



## rwhite4573

Will this work for the Ammonium Sulfate?



Thank you-Rick


----------



## Dkrem

rwhite4573 said:


> Will this work for the Ammonium Sulfate?


With that 21-0-0 analysis it can't be much else, should work fine.


----------



## g-man

@rwhite4573 I had to do some digging, but I found the back of the bag. https://www.amazon.com/CHS-Garden-21-0-0-Extended-Release/dp/B072JTMCFQ/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_pdt_img_top?ie=UTF8

The extended release had me thinking for a bit. It is AMS with some coated urea. The percent of coated urea is very low, so it should work fine.


----------



## rwhite4573

g-man thanks I appreciate you taking the time and researching.

Rick


----------



## Dkrem

g-man said:


> The extended release had me thinking for a bit. It is AMS with some coated urea. The percent of coated urea is very low, so it should work fine.


Just be aware that you may find the coated urea sitting in the bottom of your mix bucket after you pour the rest out.


----------



## Ware

Dkrem said:


> Just be aware that you may find the coated urea sitting in the bottom of your mix bucket after you pour the rest out.


@rwhite4573, I agree. For a 3k lawn, I would just buy something like this 5lb Ammonium Sulfate. For about $16 it's enough AS to mix up and spray FAS on a 3k lawn 7-8 times, and you don't have to worry about dissolving larger granules and filler material. It looks and dissolves like sugar:








Same with the 5lb Ferrous Sulfate:


----------



## rwhite4573

Ware,

Nice!

Thanks I agree. I will buy the 5 pounds from amazon. Do I need the citric acid?


----------



## Harts

I would try it without first and see what results you get. I don't use it and have been overwhelmed with the result.


----------



## rwhite4573

Harts,

Thank you-Rick


----------



## Drewmey

So I bought a 50lbs bag of ferrous sulfate at a local turf store late last year. I am beginning to realize the magnitude of 50lbs vs. my lawn size! The 2oz application works well for me on my cool season lawn, which means a 50lbs bag is around 100 applications on my yard! Even if I did it 10 times a year (likely won't), that is 10 years of product.

It looks like if I can fit (2) 5lbs bags in a large flat rate box (not sure yet, I think I can), I could package/ship out 5lbs of ferrous sulfate and 5lbs of ammonium sulfate for about $28. I see both ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate on amazon for about $16.

Obviously for those who have access to a store which sells them in bulk is the best option. But for those who are already buying this online....is this worth starting a thread in the Marketplace for? Not sure $4 is worth anyone's time but I am never going to use all of this! Maybe people would save a fiver after factoring in tax, depending on their situation. Haha.


----------



## Me surname

I use this 
It's 99% pure & dirt cheap. 
https://www.intralabs.co.uk/iron-sulphate/1kg-iron-sulphate.html


----------



## Drewmey

Me surname said:


> I use this
> It's 99% pure & dirt cheap.
> https://www.intralabs.co.uk/iron-sulphate/1kg-iron-sulphate.html


Cool option for those in UK. Sounds like about $1.82/lbs when translated for weight and currency. What's their shipping normally run?


----------



## Me surname

The shipping is about £4-£5 , i usually buy the 4kg pack because it gets cheaper with the more you buy . 4kg cost £7.96 plus shipping. 
You can buy 2.5 kg of the off the shelf product from amazon for about £25 but it's only somewhere between 10%-20% iron ,imo you're mainly paying for fillers to bulk it up.


----------



## Drewmey

Me surname said:


> The shipping is about £4-£5 , i usually buy the 4kg pack because it gets cheaper with the more you buy . 4kg cost £7.96 plus shipping.
> You can buy 2.5 kg of the off the shelf product from amazon for about £25 but it's only somewhere between 10%-20% iron ,imo you're mainly paying for fillers to bulk it up.


Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate is 20% iron by definition. If the product says 20% iron, then it is ~100% ferrous sulfate.

I've never found an online option quite that cheap in the states. You can match that by getting a 50lbs bag from a turf store like I found.


----------



## Me surname

I'm not a chemist ,idon't really understand the maths , I'm on a low budget so I just like getting more for my money ,wifey thinks lawn care is do once & it's good for a lifetime ,she tell me there's something wrong with me because I overseed every year & spray this & that on the grass. 
What's your opinion on the green crystals I linked to ?


----------



## Harts

Lawn care is a hobby. It's just like anything else - wood working, gardening, knitting. It keeps you busy, out of trouble and at the end of the day, you're creating something that most people in your neighborhood will be envious of.

See is you can find some ammonium sulfate to mix the the iron sulphate. You'll be pleased with the results.


----------



## Me surname

Harts said:


> Lawn care is a hobby. It's just like anything else - wood working, gardening, knitting. It keeps you busy, out of trouble and at the end of the day, you're creating something that most people in your neighborhood will be envious of.
> 
> See is you can find some ammonium sulfate to mix the the iron sulphate. You'll be pleased with the results.


Thanks for that ,At least my neighbours tell me how nice it looks & I enjoy doing it .
What does ammonium sulfate do to the iron to make it better? 
I usually mix my iron sulfate with Humic acid and or see weed extract thinking it will have a kelateing effect on it.


----------



## Drewmey

Me surname said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lawn care is a hobby. It's just like anything else - wood working, gardening, knitting. It keeps you busy, out of trouble and at the end of the day, you're creating something that most people in your neighborhood will be envious of.
> 
> See is you can find some ammonium sulfate to mix the the iron sulphate. You'll be pleased with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that ,At least my neighbours tell me how nice it looks & I enjoy doing it .
> What does ammonium sulfate do to the iron to make it better?
> I usually mix my iron sulfate with Humic acid and or see weed extract thinking it will have a kelateing effect on it.
Click to expand...

I've heard mixing iron sulfate with humic acid can cause clumping issues with the humic in sprayers? Not the case for you?

And ammonium sulfate helps provide nitrogen to the plant. My understanding is that the plant using the iron in a chemical process that also requires nitrogen. So you're basically giving it both items it needs for the chemical process (chlorophyll creation process).


----------



## Me surname

Drewmey said:


> Me surname said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lawn care is a hobby. It's just like anything else - wood working, gardening, knitting. It keeps you busy, out of trouble and at the end of the day, you're creating something that most people in your neighborhood will be envious of.
> 
> See is you can find some ammonium sulfate to mix the the iron sulphate. You'll be pleased with the results.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that ,At least my neighbours tell me how nice it looks & I enjoy doing it .
> What does ammonium sulfate do to the iron to make it better?
> I usually mix my iron sulfate with Humic acid and or see weed extract thinking it will have a kelateing effect on it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I've heard mixing iron sulfate with humic acid can cause clumping issues with the humic in sprayers? Not the case for you?
> 
> And ammonium sulfate helps provide nitrogen to the plant. My understanding is that the plant using the iron in a chemical process that also requires nitrogen. So you're basically giving it both items it needs for the chemical process (chlorophyll creation process).
Click to expand...

I have had a hard time getting Humic acid in the U.K. , the cheapest way I've found is to buy Humic acid granular (70% humicacid/vulvic acid 30% inorganic stuff,shale I presume. )& grind it up in a morta & pestal , it has got fine grains settled in the bottom but I just assumed it was the Humic granules & ground shale.
I use a hose end sprayer to try & spread it ,the Mirical grow one that doesn't siphon.


----------



## Harts

@Me surname

Go back and read the original post by Mighty Quinn on page 1 - in particular the second half of his post. The AS acts as a booster to the ferrous (iron) sulphate and enhances/speeds up the process. He also states the AS can be omitted if you choose not to use it. It isn't the necessary component to iron supplementation. But he, nor I, have every sprayed iron without it.

Humic and kelp are generally applied to the soil while iron is a foliar application. I always keep these separate. I use a hose end sprayer for my soil amendments and my backpack sprayer for the iron apps.


----------



## cnet24

@Harts - question I have around AS & Feature. I spray Feature with my PGR apps but do not include the AS. Is the AS needed/will I get better response with the Feature 6-0-0 product?


----------



## Harts

@cnet24 Unfortunately I can't answer that question. I have never used Feature (not available in Canada) and I don't know enough behind the chemistry to give you a proper answer.

My non professional response would be I don't think you need to add AS since Feature already contains N (but I don't know if it is quick release). Are you happy with the results you are currently getting with your spray app?

I would direct this question to @Ware, @Mightyquinn or @Pete1313.


----------



## Pete1313

There is some AS already in FeAture. 28.5% of the product is AS.

A note about AS, it does more in the tank besides just give some N to facilitate uptake. It also prevents hard water antagonism as well as lowering the tank mix PH some(around .5 PH depending on the amount added). Hard water antagonism is more of an issue with some herbicides but it is unclear to me if there is an antagonism with straight FS(I believe so). I have not come across any research, and if anyone has some please share. I do know that tank mix PH plays an important role in straight FS with higher tank PH numbers limiting the FS uptake.

What about Feature? These notes are less of an issue since the iron in the product is chelated and believe Feature drops the tank mix PH a bit anyways.

I have never played around with FeAture. I use FS, urea and use another product to acidify the tank mixture. Maybe @Greendoc can add more info about FeAture as well.


----------



## Drewmey

I was thinking about iron in soil today...and its availability to the plant. And how that forces us to spray products like FAS.

Has anyone considered taking a chelated iron like this https://www.greenwaybiotech.com/products/chelated-iron-edta?variant=1556850753. Mixing it with something like other fertilizer or sand. And then applying it to the soil? Watering in heavily. Since it is chelated, I am imaging that it would remain available to the plant (but I do not know for how long). I guess I am wondering if one application of 1/2lbs - 3/4lbs per M could eliminate a years worth of spraying every 3-4 weeks? Maybe half a years of spraying? Multiple years worth? Only a month or two worth?

If the amount of iron that grass actually needs isn't substantial...and if this remains chelated for a long time, I am wondering if it is not a worthwhile consideration?


----------



## cnet24

@Harts & @Pete1313 apprciate the answers.

I started mixing Feature with my PGR app two years ago. The first year I sprayed @ 1oz per 1K and really liked the results. Last year, however, I was not getting a similar response despite keeping my overall program the same. Even after bumping the rate to 2 oz/K, it was still lackluster. Was just reading through here and thought maybe adding AS to my mixture would help, but that doesn't seem to be the answer.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Drewmey said:


> I was thinking about iron in soil today...and its availability to the plant. And how that forces us to spray products like FAS.
> 
> Has anyone considered taking a chelated iron like this https://www.greenwaybiotech.com/products/chelated-iron-edta?variant=1556850753. Mixing it with something like other fertilizer or sand. And then applying it to the soil? Watering in heavily. Since it is chelated, I am imaging that it would remain available to the plant (but I do not know for how long). I guess I am wondering if one application of 1/2lbs - 3/4lbs per M could eliminate a years worth of spraying every 3-4 weeks? Maybe half a years of spraying? Multiple years worth? Only a month or two worth?
> 
> If the amount of iron that grass actually needs isn't substantial...and if this remains chelated for a long time, I am wondering if it is not a worthwhile consideration?


Most of the iron in FeATURE and Main Event is chelated just FYI. So if you use either one of those products you will get the benefits of Chelated iron.


----------



## Greendoc

Iron and other minerals such as Manganese or Mangesium can be combined with many herbicides, insecticides, and fungicides. Exception to that would be the Sulfonylureaherbicides. Issues being incompatibility with acid solutions and the minerals binding to the active ingredient.


----------



## Drewmey

Mightyquinn said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking about iron in soil today...and its availability to the plant. And how that forces us to spray products like FAS.
> 
> Has anyone considered taking a chelated iron like this https://www.greenwaybiotech.com/products/chelated-iron-edta?variant=1556850753. Mixing it with something like other fertilizer or sand. And then applying it to the soil? Watering in heavily. Since it is chelated, I am imaging that it would remain available to the plant (but I do not know for how long). I guess I am wondering if one application of 1/2lbs - 3/4lbs per M could eliminate a years worth of spraying every 3-4 weeks? Maybe half a years of spraying? Multiple years worth? Only a month or two worth?
> 
> If the amount of iron that grass actually needs isn't substantial...and if this remains chelated for a long time, I am wondering if it is not a worthwhile consideration?
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the iron in FeATURE and Main Event is chelated just FYI. So if you use either one of those products you will get the benefits of Chelated iron.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I'm wondering if chelated iron can be applied to the soil, via drench, remain chelated longterm and provide season long iron for your grass. In lieu of spraying monthly-ish. Or would the volume required to sustain that duration harm the grass (blackening). Or because it's in the soil, would the grass only uptake what it requires from the soil?


----------



## g-man

@Drewmey They remain chelated, but root uptake is not great and ir depends on the soil pH and the chelating agents. See this study from UNL. The quantity you have to apply to the soil is also a lot more than foliar. Some of the chelated products are $$$$.


----------



## Drewmey

g-man said:


> @Drewmey They remain chelated, but root uptake is not great and ir depends on the soil pH and the chelating agents. See this study from UNL. The quantity you have to apply to the soil is also a lot more than foliar. Some of the chelated products are $$$$.


Thanks. I was assuming that because the iron was chelated, the pH would not be an issue (assumed iron wouldn't be locked up but guess that's not how it works). Was also hoping that less would be required because chelation would make absorption more efficient. I've heard even a pound or two of ferrous sulfate goes a long way per M. So I was basically assuming a bunch of things in which I have no knowledge about! :lol:


----------



## g-man

This graphs shows how the iron chelates react with soil pH. If you are treating a garden, a tree or something small, then soil EDDHA is great, but expensive. For a lawn, it quickly becomes cost prohibiting.










- from https://cropnuts.helpscoutdocs.com/article/826-iron-fertilisation

This graph is missing other chelation methods, mainly the organic or biosolid.


----------



## Matthew_73

> [Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate for every 1K of Cool Season Lawn
> 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.4oz of Fe)
> 1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate
> 1 Gallon of Water(preferably Hot or Warm)
> Avoid the iron on the leaves in summer temperatures./quote]
> 
> So... Is this an output for a 2 gallon or 4? How could I adjust this for a Hose end?


----------



## Kaba

g-man said:


> This graphs shows how the iron chelates react with soil pH. If you are treating a garden, a tree or something small, then soil EDDHA is great, but expensive. For a lawn, it quickly becomes cost prohibiting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - from https://cropnuts.helpscoutdocs.com/article/826-iron-fertilisation
> 
> This graph is missing other chelation methods, mainly the organic or biosolid.


Hi @g-man, based on this graph if my soil pH is 7.9 is there any point in adding citric acid to my mix as the chelation % approaches 0 after 7?

Or is this referring to the mixture (aka my water) pH as we foliar apply the FAS?


----------



## JERSEY

I did an experimental mix last week.
I took 32 oz of granular moss out, put into 4 gal of hot water and mixed. Then split it in half in 2 4 gal tank sprays.
I sprayed it on moss and some turf.
I did not notice any significant darkening on turf. Is it too weak?

Also the bottom of bucket had alot of a white sediment.

Anyone have experience using this? I got it on the cheap and wanted to experiment.


----------



## g-man

@Kaba the chart reflects the chemistry if iron. It's the same for soil or water

@JERSEY it's possible that your water pH caused a precipitate (the white sediment), thus taking the iron out of the solution.


----------



## JERSEY

@ gman.VERY INTERESTING!
I got more to learn.....


----------



## JERSEY

I am doing some more reading

molasses.......lol........ Iron sucrate. anyone try adding molasses with Iron app?

I am working with sandy soil in the pines of NJ...generally known as a poor soil and acidic. Crops grown here are blueberrys and rhododendron thrive here.....

My turf responds well to strong N drops and I get strong results from foliar Iron apps....as well as granular iron drops.

My objective is minimizing cost, as life is expensive enough. I am a little confused as to why the moss out in granular made a white sediment on the bottom of the bucket after mixing it. That is Ferrous sulfate (stated on bag). Gman says maybe my waters PH maybe a culprit.

I have used liquid moss out with Great success. I also have used Liquid fert that has 15-0-0 with 6% iron.....works Great...but gets pricey.

anyway........heres a read for anyone interested....

Iron sucrate (iron oxide's sweeter cousin) is produced by blending iron oxide with sugars to form an iron containing organic complex. Generally, molasses or some other inexpensive sugar is used. Iron sucrate has limited water solubility and, therefore is less prone to staining than iron oxide. Comparative research is limited; however, some research suggests that sucrates may be more effective on high pH soils than oxides. Staining may occur with iron sucrate.

https://www.harrells.com/Blog/Post/irony-in-iron


----------



## JERSEY

g-man said:


> Some good read this morning in regards to iron via soil and foliar.
> 
> https://www.gcmonline.com/research/news/iron-fertilizers-soil-solubility
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1171095966994325504
> Study behind paywall: https://dl.sciencesocieties.org/publications/aj/abstracts/111/3/1498


------
this tells us that foliar is superior.

What I can say is that I applied a 0.7 lb N granular and a Healthy dose of mossout granular friday night before the heavy rains yesterday. This morning I see a Certain darkening of the turf. I think soil ph has a important role....I am just sharing my results-observations. Its 645am....but I can see a difference. Is the Nitro playing a role? possibly......

I also do agree that foliar apps of iron are far more effective. its nearly instant...a few hours.


----------



## corneliani

i just came across this graphic and thought I'd share here. I had my water tested recently and was surprised it came in at 9.2, and was thinking about how this affects my spray mixes. Here's a great visual:


----------



## Dkrem

Yep, that's exactly what happens with my high pH water.


----------



## JERSEY

So what are you adding to the water?


----------



## Dkrem

JERSEY said:


> So what are you adding to the water?


I use citric acid. Both it and the Ammonium sulfate acidify the water.


----------



## g-man

Reducing carrier pH (with citirc acid or any other pH reducing product) should be done not just with FAS, but herbicides too. Ensure you adjust the pH first, then add the rest.


----------



## Gilley11

What are you guys using to test the ph? Strips like for a pool?


----------



## Gilley11

24 pages....guess I've got some reading to do.


----------



## Ware

Gilley11 said:


> What are you guys using to test the ph? Strips like for a pool?


You could use an inexpensive digital pH meter.


----------



## Gilley11

Ware said:


> You could use an inexpensive digital pH meter.


Anybody know if these will also test water ph? Doesn't say in the description, but I can't see why not. Probably not the most accurate thing but as long as it's relatively close that's good enough for me. Trying to knock out w ph tests at once.
https://www.amazon.com/WINZOOM-Tester-Moisture-Meter-Silver/dp/B085Y12NZB/ref=mp_s_a_1_28?dchild=1&keywords=ph+meter+soil&qid=1585844188&sprefix=ph+meter&sr=8-28

**sorry, forgot to include link**


----------



## FlaDave

Gilley11 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could use an inexpensive digital pH meter.
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody know if these will also test water ph? Doesn't say in the description, but I can't see why not. Probably not the most accurate thing but as long as it's relatively close that's good enough for me. Trying to knock out w ph tests at once.
Click to expand...


----------



## Gilley11

@FlaDave sorry, forgot to include link, corrected above.


----------



## FlaDave

Gilley11 said:


> @FlaDave sorry, forgot to include link, corrected above.


Oh ok, I do have one of those probe meters. I've read quite a few times before that the are not accurate and should not be used but in my experience it's been really close to soil test results I've got. 
I'll give it a shot in some water later on see what happens.


----------



## jprez

This is a great thread. I got a lot to read. Quick question, I have a lot of 46,0,0, can I substitute it instead of A.S.?


----------



## FlaDave

@Gilley11 I tested the meter in tap water and the gauge read 7 both in and out of the water. I added some vinegar and the gauge moved to acidic when in the water and returned to neutral when removed so I'd say it works. I have no way to test how accurate it is though.


----------



## Gilley11

@FlaDave good to hear, thanks much. Ordered and be here Saturday


----------



## FlaDave

jprez said:


> This is a great thread. I got a lot to read. Quick question, I have a lot of 46,0,0, can I substitute it instead of A.S.?


I would think it would be fine if it's water soluble urea. Maybe use half the amount since it's 46-0-0 vs 21-0-0?


----------



## jprez

FlaDave said:


> jprez said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great thread. I got a lot to read. Quick question, I have a lot of 46,0,0, can I substitute it instead of A.S.?
> 
> 
> 
> I would think it would be fine if it's water soluble urea. Maybe use half the amount since it's 46-0-0 vs 21-0-0?
Click to expand...

@FlaDave Thanks for the answer. I already did the calculation and accounted for the higher N. Do you think that it is to early to make an application of Iron? I'm in NE Ohio, zone 6, weather is finally getting warmer.


----------



## FlaDave

@jprez I would think if your lawn is greened up and healthy you should be fine. I say healthy because I just did feature+urea app and ended up with a bad case of what I think is leaf spot.


----------



## lvlikeyv

FlaDave said:


> @jprez I would think if your lawn is greened up and healthy you should be fine.


I had the same question. I just browsed all 25 pages of this thread and I dont think I saw any mention of when you can start applying.(I'm also on whisky #2 and may have missed it) I gather that I am okay to start, but was curious if anyone else had an opinion or adhered to any certain criteria (50% green up/75% green up) 
Also, If we are expecting some heavy rains late this Saturday, If I apply Friday evening that should be enough time for the leave to absorb the product? I'm use to granule so I'm hesitant to spray prior to a heavy rain.


----------



## FlaDave

lvlikeyv said:


> FlaDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> @jprez I would think if your lawn is greened up and healthy you should be fine.
> 
> 
> 
> I had the same question. I just browsed all 25 pages of this thread and I dont think I saw any mention of when you can start applying.(I'm also on whisky #2 and may have missed it) I gather that I am okay to start, but was curious if anyone else had an opinion or adhered to any certain criteria (50% green up/75% green up)
> Also, If we are expecting some heavy rains late this Saturday, If I apply Friday evening that should be enough time for the leave to absorb the product? I'm use to granule so I'm hesitant to spray prior to a heavy rain.
Click to expand...

Since it's foliar you will want 100% green. The evening before morning irrigation or rain would be the ideal application window.


----------



## garettpage

I threw down an app of this last night coupled with some Humic Acid so fingers crossed. We are supposed to get good rain here in DFW so I hope it works out.


----------



## Pologuy

Mightyquinn said:


> I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.
> 
> Irony in Iron
> 
> I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.


I clicked on your other rather than FAS. The link isn't working. What is your recommendation? FAS or other?

Thank you


----------



## Mightyquinn

Pologuy said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.
> 
> Irony in Iron
> 
> I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.
> 
> 
> 
> I clicked on your other rather than FAS. The link isn't working. What is your recommendation? FAS or other?
> 
> Thank you
Click to expand...

I fixed the link so it should work now, not sure if all the quoted links were fixed though.

I recommend going with Main Event Iron It's chelated iron plus it has some Micronutrients in it also. There is nothing wrong with FAS and it's fairly cheap just may not last as long as some chelated iron might. It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.


----------



## davegravy

Mightyquinn said:


> It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.


I thought it was the other way around... The higher your soil pH the less available iron in your soil is, whereas foliar iron absorption is less (or not at all?) dependent on soil pH?


----------



## Mightyquinn

davegravy said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was the other way around... The higher your soil pH the less available iron in your soil is, whereas foliar iron absorption is less (or not at all?) dependent on soil pH?
Click to expand...

You are correct in that aspect that if you have a high pH soil the foliar app from FAS will help to darken up your lawn but once it gets washed off it's basically going to be bound up in the soil. So you won't get any residual effect.


----------



## Pologuy

Mightyquinn said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was the other way around... The higher your soil pH the less available iron in your soil is, whereas foliar iron absorption is less (or not at all?) dependent on soil pH?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are correct in that aspect that if you have a high pH soil the foliar app from FAS will help to darken up your lawn but once it gets washed off it's basically going to be bound up in the soil. So you won't get any residual effect.
Click to expand...

Her my soil test results. My pH is a little higher. Finally noticed the clover and dandelions curling up. My lawn is 23,000 sqft plus. Just trying to everything possible to maximize things.


----------



## Pologuy




----------



## JERSEY

j4c11 said:


> Please note that for FAS you are looking for Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate, not Ferrous Sulfate Monohydrate which is not easily water soluble.


I think moss out is monohydrate. 
It does work though

I havent checked my ph on water yet.

I know the soil here is acidic, and granular also works. Not as fast, nor as dark, nor as effective on moss either


----------



## Bermuda_Triangle

Do you think Triple Organic Micro Nutrients or Micro Nutrient Pack by Kelp4Less is on par with Main Event Iron from a performance and price perspective?

https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/triple-organic-micro-nutrients/
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/micro-nutrient-pack/


----------



## bernstem

@Pologuy pH of 6.9 is a touch high and will bind up some iron, but soil applications should work fine for you. They might not give as much kick as someone at 6.0, but I don't worry too much until over 7.5.

From Purdue Univ:


----------



## jha4aamu

Mightyquinn said:


> Pologuy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was researching different types of iron to use on my lawn this year and came across this article that I found very interesting and informative. I think I am going to go another route over the Ferrous Ammonium Sulfate.
> 
> Irony in Iron
> 
> I think I am going to go with this product here to test it out Sprint 330 Chelated Iron and if everything checks out, I may go with this Chelated Iron DTPA 11% at 25lbs, it's a lot more cost effective and looks to be something very similar.
> 
> 
> 
> I clicked on your other rather than FAS. The link isn't working. What is your recommendation? FAS or other?
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I fixed the link so it should work now, not sure if all the quoted links were fixed though.
> 
> I recommend going with Main Event Iron It's chelated iron plus it has some Micronutrients in it also. There is nothing wrong with FAS and it's fairly cheap just may not last as long as some chelated iron might. It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.
Click to expand...

what rate are you applying the main event? ive considered that as well as the chelated DTPA from greenway. was unsure of their app rates though


----------



## Mightyquinn

I still have some FEature left over from last year but I plan on applying the Main Event at the same rate of 2oz/M when I apply my PGR.


----------



## LoveMyLawn

I bought a bunch of FEature last year. I am ready to start using it. I'm do for an app of fert too. Saturday morning I am planning on laying down an app of Carbon X, then an app of FEature a 2oz/k. Then irrigating early Sunday morning 4am-ish. Do y'all see any issue with me laying down an app of Carbon X and FEature the same day or should I split them a week apart?


----------



## Matthew_73

Where can you get FEature?


----------



## Mightyquinn

LoveMyLawn said:


> I bought a bunch of FEature last year. I am ready to start using it. I'm do for an app of fert too. Saturday morning I am planning on laying down an app of Carbon X, then an app of FEature a 2oz/k. Then irrigating early Sunday morning 4am-ish. Do y'all see any issue with me laying down an app of Carbon X and FEature the same day or should I split them a week apart?


Yes, you can put them down together without any issues. :thumbup:


----------



## Mightyquinn

Matthew_73 said:


> Where can you get FEature?


I am not aware of any online store that is currently carrying it or selling but supposedly it is sold through Nutrien Ag Solutions which used to be called Crop Production Services. They mainly sell to farmers and the like but you would have to call your local branch to see if they carry it or can get it for you. Some people have already tried to no avail, so good luck. Everyone else has switched to Main Event Iron as there are a few places online that carry it and it's basically the same thing. There is thread on this Soil Fertility forum that talks all about it.

FYI, for everyone else, please try to limit your questions and responses to FAS in this thread and NOT FEature or Main event. :thumbup:


----------



## JERSEY

Anyone recommend this as a substitute?
A little less $
https://www.amazon.com/Central-Garden-Brands-AMMONIUM-SULFATE/dp/B00GP8HIWY/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=ammonium+sulfate+20+lbs&qid=1588605004&sr=8-2


----------



## jha4aamu

JERSEY said:


> Anyone recommend this as a substitute?
> A little less $
> https://www.amazon.com/Central-Garden-Brands-AMMONIUM-SULFATE/dp/B00GP8HIWY/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=ammonium+sulfate+20+lbs&qid=1588605004&sr=8-2


$30 for a 20lb bag of AS isnt a very good deal. siteone has a 50lb bag for $28. Ive been able to find 50lb bags from rural king for $12


----------



## JERSEY

Yeah I saw that Rural King for $12 we don't have any of those around here in New Jersey


----------



## Matthew_73

So I am ready to start using this in my lawn on a 2-3 intervals... I see 46% Urea and I see 21% AS.. What is more effective and what is the difference between the two...


----------



## Dkrem

Matthew_73 said:


> So I am ready to start using this in my lawn on a 2-3 intervals... I see 46% Urea and I see 21% AS.. What is more effective and what is the difference between the two...


The Ammonium Sulfate in my opinion is more effective since the grass can directly take it in and use it foliar, it is already in a form the plant can directly use. Urea needs enzyme action before it can be utilized, either via microbes in the soil or on the leaf.


----------



## JERSEY

Wow!!!
Great answer.


----------



## bernstem

Grass will take up Urea through the leaves as well and has its own Urease. The data seems to be all over on how much Urease activity is in soil, thatch, or plants ranging from 10-50% in the grass itself. I have never used Urea instead of AS for spraying, so don't know how well it will work.


----------



## Matthew_73

Is all Ammonium Sulfate dissolvable? I have access to Siteone


----------



## Mightyquinn

Matthew_73 said:


> Is all Ammonium Sulfate dissolvable? I have access to Siteone


It should be, as long as it's 21-0-0. There will be some differences in the purity of it depending on the color but it all should dissolve just fine.


----------



## Matthew_73

https://www.siteone.com/pdf/sdsPDF?skuId=247467&resourceId=26905


----------



## g-man

@Matthew_73 yes that's good.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Has anyone ever used one of these to spray FAS or Humic/Kelp blends?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00UER1S2I/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

If so what type of rate would i set for the top? It sprays in tsp or TBSP amounts per gallon.

I intend to just fill it with the amount of product for a given section of my yard, so not sure what to set it too as ill just end up putting the entire product on the lawn im not sure if it matters? S omewhere in the middle and just keep spraying the yard like Knorr does?

Looking at it specifically for my Humic/Kelp from Kelp4Less because it never dissolves properly and constantly clogs my sprayer i have tons of floating black bits in the sprayer.


----------



## JERSEY

Just sprayed a little.......last sat.
4 Oz /1000 turf pro urea with chelated iron. Added another 4 Oz /1000 liquid ferous sulfate..Moss out.

3lb n so far this year too.

This may not work for you, but it works for me.

Incredible density.


----------



## Matthew_73

g-man said:


> @Matthew_73 yes that's good.


Can i add this to a Chelated Iron or would that be too much. 12-0-0 like 2-3 oz per 1000


----------



## g-man

Add how much of what to how much of what into how many gallons of water ? What are you trying to address?


----------



## Matthew_73

Spoon feed and green


----------



## Matthew_73

Ammonium Sulfate and 12-0-0. Not ready to mix all the FAS and CA together yet.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

I apologize if I missed this. I tried to read through the entire thread. What would be the difference of FAS VS UREA/FEature app?

I threw down .15oz per 1M of 46-0-0 and 2oz of Feature this past weekend and didn't get the color "pop" that I was hoping for.

Would FAS be a better choice?


----------



## g-man

@Matthew_73 then easy. Grab the spreader and spread 1lb of ams/ksqft and then do the 12-0-0 per the label.


----------



## JERSEY

g-man said:


> @Matthew_73 then easy. Grab the spreader and spread 1lb of ams/ksqft and then do the 12-0-0 per the label.


be careful on the 1 lb of ams.


----------



## g-man

@JERSEY 1lb of ams/ksqft is 0.21lb of N/ksqft. It is very safe to apply this granular quantity. In my renovation Im doing 1lb granular ams/ksqft every week.


----------



## JERSEY

g-man said:


> @JERSEY 1lb of ams/ksqft is 0.21lb of N/ksqft. It is very safe to apply this granular quantity. In my renovation Im doing 1lb granular ams/ksqft every week.


Thanks for clarification Mr g man

Are you posting your reno?


----------



## ScottW

Sorry if I've missed this or forgotten...

Is it safe to leave a foliar application of FAS on the lawn indefinitely without watering in?
My mix has been 1.7 oz of AMS + 2.0 oz ferrous sulfate (heptahydrate) into 1 gallon water per 1000 sqft.
Or the same 1.7 oz of AMS + the same 2.0 oz of Main Event (which is half the iron, but adds micros).

To ask a slightly different question...
What is the maximum amount of AMS that can be applied via foliar spray and left on the lawn indefinitely without watering in and without causing burn?

I have been applying my FAS with an eye on the forecast for rain the next day. I am wondering if my mixture can be adjusted if there's no rain in the forecast, or should be skipped entirely if I'm not feeling inclined to drag hoses.
I understand that ambient temp also plays into this, so for the sake of argument let's imagine I was getting normal spring weather with highs around 65-75*F in the afternoons.


----------



## jha4aamu

I modified FAS app to using 11% chelated dtpa @ 5.5oz/k and im very happy with the results. Results were pretty apparent within 48hrs too


----------



## Lungal09

Can I use urea I stead of AMS with the ferrous Sulfate?


----------



## davegravy

Lungal09 said:


> Can I use urea I stead of AMS with the ferrous Sulfate?





Dkrem said:


> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I am ready to start using this in my lawn on a 2-3 intervals... I see 46% Urea and I see 21% AS.. What is more effective and what is the difference between the two...
> 
> 
> 
> The Ammonium Sulfate in my opinion is more effective since the grass can directly take it in and use it foliar, it is already in a form the plant can directly use. Urea needs enzyme action before it can be utilized, either via microbes in the soil or on the leaf.
Click to expand...

TLDR it'll work, just not as well.


----------



## Lungal09

davegravy said:


> Lungal09 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can I use urea I stead of AMS with the ferrous Sulfate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I am ready to start using this in my lawn on a 2-3 intervals... I see 46% Urea and I see 21% AS.. What is more effective and what is the difference between the two...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Ammonium Sulfate in my opinion is more effective since the grass can directly take it in and use it foliar, it is already in a form the plant can directly use. Urea needs enzyme action before it can be utilized, either via microbes in the soil or on the leaf.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TLDR it'll work, just not as well.
Click to expand...

OK thanks. The fert is just a booster anyways right? I have a huge bag of urea so might as well use that.


----------



## davegravy

Lungal09 said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lungal09 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can I use urea I stead of AMS with the ferrous Sulfate?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Ammonium Sulfate in my opinion is more effective since the grass can directly take it in and use it foliar, it is already in a form the plant can directly use. Urea needs enzyme action before it can be utilized, either via microbes in the soil or on the leaf.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TLDR it'll work, just not as well.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> OK thanks. The fert is just a booster anyways right? I have a huge bag of urea so might as well use that.
Click to expand...

Same here, I've used both and haven't personally seen a difference


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

So I purchased AMS and ferrous sulfate. This would be the first time throwing it down. I've been used to throwing down .30 lb of urea per gallon which in turn is about .15lb of N that's being dropped on to the turf.

I'm most likely going to start off on the light side with the FAS since it's the first time.

Can I still apply my urea with the FAS in one app with my sprayer or would this cause turf damage?

Also any first time tips? How long should I leave it on the leaf blades for? I typically leave my urea app on for at least 4 hours. I've read that at the 4 hour mark, that's typically when the leaf blades have taken in the max amount of N.


----------



## Harts

Absolutely throw urea in the tank. I've always done 0.12lb N but you'll be fine with your rate. 
In spray at night and run my irrigation the next morning.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Harts said:


> Absolutely throw urea in the tank. I've always done 0.12lb N but you'll be fine with your rate.
> In spray at night and run my irrigation the next morning.


Ok great. I'm probably going to go lower than the typical rate that has been recommended in this thread for the first time


----------



## Harts

@Scagfreedom48z+ if you were to follow the cool season rate in the original post for FAS and add in 0.25lb Urea per K (0.12lb N), you'll be fine. I was very hesitant last year when I did my first app, but the results turned out great.


----------



## davegravy

Harts said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ if you were to follow the cool season rate in the original post for FAS and add in 0.25lb Urea per K (0.12lb N), you'll be fine. I was very hesitant last year when I did my first app, but the results turned out great.


Note that when I did my first app this year at the cool season rates in this guide the weather turned cold immediately after and I got some mild blackening of my lawn. Depending where you are you might want to reduce your FS concentration a bit or wait until things really get moving.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Harts said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ if you were to follow the cool season rate in the original post for FAS and add in 0.25lb Urea per K (0.12lb N), you'll be fine. I was very hesitant last year when I did my first app, but the results turned out great.


Have you tried out feature? I used it about 10 days ago at 2oz per 1M, I can't really say that I got the color pop that I was looking for. Would FAS be better or the same?

I still have about 4 bags of Feature left so I'm not giving up on it yet


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

davegravy said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Scagfreedom48z+ if you were to follow the cool season rate in the original post for FAS and add in 0.25lb Urea per K (0.12lb N), you'll be fine. I was very hesitant last year when I did my first app, but the results turned out great.
> 
> 
> 
> Note that when I did my first app this year at the cool season rates in this guide the weather turned cold immediately after and I got some mild blackening of my lawn. Depending where you are you might want to reduce your FS concentration a bit or wait until things really get moving.
Click to expand...

It's funny you mention that. I'm in mass and the weather is all over the place. We have low 40 temps last week and now we are 70 today. Tomorrow isn't suppose to be nice and then it's back up into nice weather over the weekend. The night temps are still in the low 40's. I'll take your advice on that for sure.


----------



## Harts

@Scagfreedom48z+ we are in a similar situation with our temps. They are supposed to start climbing today (although rain all day) with a minor dip this weekend. We should see more consistency by end of next week.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Harts said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ we are in a similar situation with our temps. They are supposed to start climbing today (although rain all day) with a minor dip this weekend. We should see more consistency by end of next week.


Have you done a comparison between FAS VS FEature in terms of overall color pop?


----------



## Harts

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Scagfreedom48z+ we are in a similar situation with our temps. They are supposed to start climbing today (although rain all day) with a minor dip this weekend. We should see more consistency by end of next week.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you done a comparison between FAS VS FEature in terms of overall color pop?
Click to expand...

I have not. We can't get FEature in Canada. Ferrous and Ammonium Sulfate are easy to source on Amazon so I haven't even tried to source a supplier for FEature who will ship to Canada.

I have used Southern AG Chelated Iron on its own and find the FAS mixture produces a much deeper green.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Harts said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Scagfreedom48z+ we are in a similar situation with our temps. They are supposed to start climbing today (although rain all day) with a minor dip this weekend. We should see more consistency by end of next week.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you done a comparison between FAS VS FEature in terms of overall color pop?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have not. We can't get FEature in Canada. Ferrous and Ammonium Sulfate are easy to source on Amazon so I haven't even tried to source a supplier for FEature who will ship to Canada.
> 
> I have used Southern AG Chelated Iron on its own and find the FAS mixture produces a much deeper green.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Definitely will be giving it a try


----------



## davegravy

Is a lower concentration of FS left on the leaf for a longer time better than a higher concentration of FS left on the leaf for a shorter time when it comes to getting the most colour without blackening?

I've been doing the 2oz cool season rate biweekly since last summer. I haven't had much color change and noticed some people are pushing the rate higher and getting good results.

I'm nervous to do that because I've had some mild blackening this spring. Last summer I had no blackening and am wondering if it's because I was watering the next morning whereas this spring I haven't watered at all and the FS has stayed on the leaf for days.

I have pH 7.6 soil and fairly light green grass, so was expecting to get some noticable improvement from FS apps.


----------



## davegravy

Also, there's a circular area in my backyard which seems to consistently get the black haze more than others. Is this a useful indicator of anything about the health of the turf there? I don't think it's a different grass type.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Welp...

I'm going to give FAS a try this weekend for the first time. Weather is crap today with rain and chilly temps. Tomorrow sunny with cooler temps. I'm going to apply it with UREA. Since it's my first time, I'm going to go the conservative route. My app will be: 
FS: 2 oz per 1M
AS: 1.5 oz per 1M 
Urea: .30 lb per 1M
My HOC is 3"

Any objections or concerns before I take the plunge?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Anyone?


----------



## JERSEY

why mix urea with AS?


----------



## Harts

@Scagfreedom48z+ your rates look good. I've always done 2oz + 1.7oz and 0.25lb Urea.

@JERSEY the urea adds a little more Nto the app. You're already spraying so might as well add something else to the tank. The amount of N in the AS at those rates is minuscule.


----------



## JERSEY

ok....so say you had some liquid DEF...you could add 1 oz per gal/1000?


----------



## g-man

@JERSEY DEF is urea and deionized water. In theory it should work, but I would first try it in a small section of the backyard. I know of ppl using DEF on their lawns, but I don't know as a FAS or foliar.


----------



## Skiwithnoskis

Anyone know in stores in south west Ohio that would have bulk ferrous sulfate?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Harts said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ your rates look good. I've always done 2oz + 1.7oz and 0.25lb Urea.
> 
> @JERSEY the urea adds a little more Nto the app. You're already spraying so might as well add something else to the tank. The amount of N in the AS at those rates is minuscule.


Thanks harts!


----------



## Skiwithnoskis

Skiwithnoskis said:


> Anyone know in stores in south west Ohio that would have bulk ferrous sulfate?


anyone?


----------



## jha4aamu

Skiwithnoskis said:


> Skiwithnoskis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know in stores in south west Ohio that would have bulk ferrous sulfate?
> 
> 
> 
> anyone?
Click to expand...

there is a siteone in cincinnati. they carry 50lb bags for around $20


----------



## Skiwithnoskis

jha4aamu said:


> Skiwithnoskis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Skiwithnoskis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone know in stores in south west Ohio that would have bulk ferrous sulfate?
> 
> 
> 
> anyone?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> there is a siteone in cincinnati. they carry 50lb bags for around $20
Click to expand...

Thanks


----------



## jrubb42

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Welp...
> 
> I'm going to give FAS a try this weekend for the first time. Weather is crap today with rain and chilly temps. Tomorrow sunny with cooler temps. I'm going to apply it with UREA. Since it's my first time, I'm going to go the conservative route. My app will be:
> FS: 2 oz per 1M
> AS: 1.5 oz per 1M
> Urea: .30 lb per 1M
> My HOC is 3"
> 
> Any objections or concerns before I take the plunge?


How have your results been? Noticeable change?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

jrubb42 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welp...
> 
> I'm going to give FAS a try this weekend for the first time. Weather is crap today with rain and chilly temps. Tomorrow sunny with cooler temps. I'm going to apply it with UREA. Since it's my first time, I'm going to go the conservative route. My app will be:
> FS: 2 oz per 1M
> AS: 1.5 oz per 1M
> Urea: .30 lb per 1M
> My HOC is 3"
> 
> Any objections or concerns before I take the plunge?
> 
> 
> 
> How have your results been? Noticeable change?
Click to expand...

My turf was slightly darker but no I'll effects.
I'm overall happy with the first time using it. I will increase the next dose slowly and see what the results are


----------



## doogie89

davegravy said:


> Is a lower concentration of FS left on the leaf for a longer time better than a higher concentration of FS left on the leaf for a shorter time when it comes to getting the most colour without blackening?
> 
> I've been doing the 2oz cool season rate biweekly since last summer. I haven't had much color change and noticed some people are pushing the rate higher and getting good results.
> 
> I'm nervous to do that because I've had some mild blackening this spring. Last summer I had no blackening and am wondering if it's because I was watering the next morning whereas this spring I haven't watered at all and the FS has stayed on the leaf for days.
> 
> I have pH 7.6 soil and fairly light green grass, so was expecting to get some noticable improvement from FS apps.


I have the same pH as you and my grass just never seems to get that dark green color. I am in southeast Michigan with all KBG. About three weeks ago I did 0.65 pounds of N per M of ammonium sulfate with a full application of ironite. I noticed no difference in the green coloring of my grass. I still have that slight lime greenish color lawn, which looks healthy overall, but not dark green. I ordered the recommended products at the beginning of this thread in hopes that I can get my grass to get that dark green color. I did a fall nitrogen blitz last fall with almost 2 pounds of nitrogen over a 2 months span. I did my first nitrogen application of 1 pound of nitrogen with lesco starter fertilizer in mid April and then the ammonium sulfate in mid May with ironite. Seems like the lawn is getting enough nitrogen, and even with the ironite, the results have been subpar.


----------



## virginiabri

I wanted to try this FAS treatment for a while, so I purchased the Ammonium Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate that were linked at MQ's original post and was planning on doing the app this afternoon per the suggested rates on my Tiffany 419. My HOC is .60 and the grass is starting to look really nice here as things are warming up in VA. My question is that I also had purchased 2.5 Gal of Lesco 12-0-0 Chelated Iron a few weeks ago and was wondering if I should/could mix this with my FAS treatment, or just save for another time. Any suggestions?


----------



## g-man

@virginiabri dont do both at once. It will be too much iron.


----------



## ROJ_3030

I apologize if this has already been answered: Is ferrous sulfate monohydrate the same as ferrous sulfate?

A local grain elevator has AS along with ferrous sulfate monohydrate. They mentioned it was for moss treatment?


----------



## g-man

Mono(30%) is different than hepta (20% iron). You can use mono, I think J4C11 does, but I dont have experience with it.


----------



## Matthew_73

So how do you know if Citric Acid is needed? I am going to try a small sample size for my lawn and get 10 lbs of each... I will be getting my soil sample back. I know my water is around

Minimum Average Maximum
9.1 9.4 9.7


----------



## Matthew_73

jha4aamu said:


> there is a siteone in cincinnati. they carry 50lb bags for around $20


Is the the Siteone AS differ from the one on Amazon?


----------



## jha4aamu

As far as i know, if its 21-0-0 it all works the same.


----------



## Harts

Matthew_73 said:


> So how do you know if Citric Acid is needed? I am going to try a small sample size for my lawn and get 10 lbs of each... I will be getting my soil sample back. I know my water is around
> 
> Minimum Average Maximum
> 9.1 9.4 9.7


Based on those numbers, your water is too alkaline. When you mix the FS and AS, the solution will turn orange - this was my indication that my water PH was too high. I don't recall off the top of my head what the ideal PH level is (5-6??). But when your water PH is balanced, the mixture will be a blue/green. I just used citric acid for the first time last night and added 0.3oz into 2 gallons (to cover 2k sf). That was a complete guess on my part.


----------



## Matthew_73

Harts said:


> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you know if Citric Acid is needed? I am going to try a small sample size for my lawn and get 10 lbs of each... I will be getting my soil sample back. I know my water is around
> 
> Minimum Average Maximum
> 9.1 9.4 9.7
> 
> 
> 
> Based on those numbers, your water is too alkaline. When you mix the FS and AS, the solution will turn orange - this was my indication that my water PH was too high. I don't recall off the top of my head what the ideal PH level is (5-6??). But when your water PH is balanced, the mixture will be a blue/green. I just used citric acid for the first time last night and added 0.3oz into 2 gallons (to cover 2k sf). That was a complete guess on my part.
Click to expand...

 I prolly need to invest in a ph probe. And some CA.


----------



## Matthew_73

jha4aamu said:


> As far as i know, if its 21-0-0 it all works the same.


I didn't know if one mixed better. Or had more inactive ingredients that would be more beneficial. Double the price for half the product.


----------



## corneliani

ROJ_3030 said:


> I apologize if this has already been answered: Is ferrous sulfate monohydrate the same as ferrous sulfate?
> 
> A local grain elevator has AS along with ferrous sulfate monohydrate. They mentioned it was for moss treatment?


I forgot exactly where I had read this but I remember it stated that Mono is not as soluble as Heptahydrate in water at normal temps, but very soluble in boiling water. I think even this thread had an earlier post from someone who tried it and was running into the same issue. 
I'm rummaging through my mind randomly stored information.. hope it helps.


----------



## Me surname

Harts said:


> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how do you know if Citric Acid is needed? I am going to try a small sample size for my lawn and get 10 lbs of each... I will be getting my soil sample back. I know my water is around
> 
> Minimum Average Maximum
> 9.1 9.4 9.7
> 
> 
> 
> Based on those numbers, your water is too alkaline. When you mix the FS and AS, the solution will turn orange - this was my indication that my water PH was too high. I don't recall off the top of my head what the ideal PH level is (5-6??). But when your water PH is balanced, the mixture will be a blue/green. I just used citric acid for the first time last night and added 0.3oz into 2 gallons (to cover 2k sf). That was a complete guess on my part.
Click to expand...

Does it make a difference though? If you are using tap water in a hose end sprayer then you are diluting it with high ph water. Or are you talking about using it through a backpack sprayer when adding citric acid?


----------



## Harts

Water Ph does matter. Too high and it can neutralize the iron. I'm not a chemist. Someone smarter than me can explain why. But it does make a difference.


----------



## davegravy

Harts said:


> Water Ph does matter. Too high and it can neutralize the iron. I'm not a chemist. Someone smarter than me can explain why. But it does make a difference.


From what I've read turning orange doesn't necessarily mean it won't be effective. You need to watch for precipitate at the bottom of your mix bucket. If you see a lot of this it means you need to lower your water pH.

My water is slightly alkaline, turns orange when FS is added, but there's little to no precipitate.


----------



## Dkrem

I can tell you that the first time I sprayed the FAS mixture and it went orange in the tank I ended up with orange stains on my concrete. The second time I added the Citric acid to keep it from oxidizing and it stayed the nice blue-green color and did NOT stain any concrete it touched.


----------



## Getting Fat

Dkrem said:


> I can tell you that the first time I sprayed the FAS mixture and it went orange in the tank I ended up with orange stains on my concrete. The second time I added the Citric acid to keep it from oxidizing and it stayed the nice blue-green color and did NOT stain any concrete it touched.


if you add citric acid, don't you have to wash it off immediately after application? If so, wouldn't you be washing off the FAS?

I sprayed FAS w/ PGR last week. not a huge green up on the grass and the solution definitely turned ORANGE.

I have high PH everything...


----------



## Harts

Getting Fat said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you that the first time I sprayed the FAS mixture and it went orange in the tank I ended up with orange stains on my concrete. The second time I added the Citric acid to keep it from oxidizing and it stayed the nice blue-green color and did NOT stain any concrete it touched.
> 
> 
> 
> if you add citric acid, don't you have to wash it off immediately after application? If so, wouldn't you be washing off the FAS?
> 
> I sprayed FAS w/ PGR last week. not a huge green up on the grass and the solution definitely turned ORANGE.
> 
> I have high PH everything...
Click to expand...

No you don't need to rinse it off right away. I sprayed 3oz FS + 2.5oz AS per 1000sf along with citric acid. Sprayed at night and rinsed off the next morning. Here is a pic between me and my neighbor from the next day. I had some over spray onto their yard.


----------



## davegravy

Harts said:


> Getting Fat said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you that the first time I sprayed the FAS mixture and it went orange in the tank I ended up with orange stains on my concrete. The second time I added the Citric acid to keep it from oxidizing and it stayed the nice blue-green color and did NOT stain any concrete it touched.
> 
> 
> 
> if you add citric acid, don't you have to wash it off immediately after application? If so, wouldn't you be washing off the FAS?
> 
> I sprayed FAS w/ PGR last week. not a huge green up on the grass and the solution definitely turned ORANGE.
> 
> I have high PH everything...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No you don't need to rinse it off right away. I sprayed 3oz FS + 2.5oz AS per 1000sf along with citric acid. Sprayed at night and rinsed off the next morning. Here is a pic between me and my neighbor from the next day. I had some over spray onto their yard.
Click to expand...

Wow my yard doesn't get anywhere near that level of greening from FAS (judging by the overspray). Maybe I should start trying citric acid.


----------



## Harts

@davegravy this was my first go wit CA. Full disclosure: I also increased my rates over previous apps. So it's hard for me to say definitively that CA is the sole reason for that darker colour. It could also be the increased rates.


----------



## davegravy

Harts said:


> @davegravy this was my first go wit CA. Full disclosure: I also increased my rates over previous apps. So it's hard for me to say definitively that CA is the sole reason for that darker colour. It could also be the increased rates.


Hmm... my lawn just gets more black as I increase rates though, not more green :lol:


----------



## Me surname

Do you just get citric acid powder & mix with the water before adding iron ?what dosage?


----------



## Grass Clippins

@Me surname I'll save you from having to read all 28 pages of info by sharing my cool season notes. Don't take this as the gospel because I still don't completely understand Iron. Hopefully other will correct any mistakes.

Measure by weight
Mix 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate / 1-gallon H2O / 1,000 square feet
Mix 1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate / 1-gallon H2O / 1,000 square feet
•	Avoid Iron on leaves in summer temps.
•	Foliar application, water in if temps are high (90+).
•	The longer it stays on the blade of grass the better.

FAS may not do well in high pH soils.
Chelated may do better in high pH soils above 7.

Greendoc said "When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH."


----------



## Me surname

Grass Clippins said:


> @Me surname I'll save you from having to read all 28 pages of info by sharing my cool season notes. Don't take this as the gospel because I still don't completely understand Iron. Hopefully other will correct any mistakes.
> 
> Measure by weight
> Mix 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate / 1-gallon H2O / 1,000 square feet
> Mix 1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate / 1-gallon H2O / 1,000 square feet
> •	Avoid Iron on leaves in summer temps.
> •	Foliar application, water in if temps are high (90+).
> •	The longer it stays on the blade of grass the better.
> 
> FAS may not do well in high pH soils.
> Chelated may do better in high pH soils above 7.
> 
> Greendoc said "When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH."


Thank you very much. :thumbup:


----------



## davegravy

Grass Clippins said:


> FAS may not do well in high pH soils.
> Chelated may do better in high pH soils above 7.


I thought the main use case for FAS was being a way to get iron into the plant that's not via soil because soil iron isnt plant-available at high pH.

In other words I thought high pH is exactly the situation when you want to use FAS.


----------



## Grass Clippins

Mightyquinn said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> It also has a lot to do with your soil pH too. The higher your pH the less likely hood that the FAS will work.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was the other way around... The higher your soil pH the less available iron in your soil is, whereas foliar iron absorption is less (or not at all?) dependent on soil pH?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are correct in that aspect that if you have a high pH soil the foliar app from FAS will help to darken up your lawn but once it gets washed off it's basically going to be bound up in the soil. So you won't get any residual effect.
Click to expand...

That came up on an earlier post.


----------



## Dkrem

Getting Fat said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> I can tell you that the first time I sprayed the FAS mixture and it went orange in the tank I ended up with orange stains on my concrete. The second time I added the Citric acid to keep it from oxidizing and it stayed the nice blue-green color and did NOT stain any concrete it touched.
> 
> 
> 
> if you add citric acid, don't you have to wash it off immediately after application? If so, wouldn't you be washing off the FAS?
> 
> I sprayed FAS w/ PGR last week. not a huge green up on the grass and the solution definitely turned ORANGE.
> I have high PH everything...
Click to expand...

I don't rinse it off.
If your mixed solution turned orange then you will need to acidify the mix to keep it from turning orange. I have both high pH water and soil. I added the citric to the tank along with the ammonium sulfate, before the iron. I did some small experimental batches until I found the right amount of citric acid I needed for my water supply. The right amount is known when you mix up the batch and let it sit a bit and it remains blue-green, and does not turn orange. IMHO the orange solution does not work nearly as well. The point of the citric is to keep the Iron as Fe(2) and not let it turn into Fe(3) in my >7.0pH water. The citric itself adds nothing else to the equation or result.


----------



## cnet24

Does anyone add citric acid to feature?


----------



## jrubb42

cnet24 said:


> Does anyone add citric acid to feature?


I'll be experimenting with it next week. I haven't got any type of green up from feature and a few ppl think it's because my water pH is too high that I'm mixing it with. I'll let you know my results when I try it out.


----------



## cnet24

@jrubb42 would be curious to know, thanks!


----------



## Babameca

@davegravy FS added to a solution with pH higher than 5.5 will produce Iron hydroxides.


----------



## NateDawg24

I just received my ph meter and some Citric Acid and did an expirement. Not sure if there is different strengths of citric acids but I needed much less than I thought to change my ph.

I ran the experiment using 2 gallons at a time but I will post results for 1 gallon for easier reading

Base ph 8.3 - 0.25 ounces CA - 3.7 ph
Base ph 8.1 - 0.15 ounces CA - 4.0 ph
Base ph 8.2 - 0.1 ounces CA - 4.2 ph
Base ph 8.1 - 0.05 ounces CA - 4.3 ph
Base ph 8.1 - 0.02 ounces CA - 6.2 ph

I was dealing with such small amounts of CA that I had to use grams on my scale as I don't have decimal places on the ounces of my scale. The last test was only 1 gram in my 2 gallons of water!

I read earlier in the thread about people using 3 and 4 ounces of CA per 1000ft2 which seems crazy given these results. This is the product I purchased
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00EYFKM32/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## bernstem

For pH changes on the lawn, you would use Citric acid at 1-2 lbs/1000 square feet. It is pretty acidic, so you need to water it in immediately. To adjust the pH of a sprayer solution, you don't need much as you have noted.


----------



## Grass Clippins

NateDawg24 said:


> I read earlier in the thread about people using 3 and 4 ounces of CA per 1000ft2 which seems crazy given these results.


I noticed that as well but I believe people were are adding 4oz/# to chelate the iron vs adjusting for optimal pH. Reading through the thread seems like the evolution of things is that people started with FAS, then chelated the FAS, then move to Feature/Mainevent. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, still learning.


----------



## Dkrem

The citric is potent stuff, good thing it is safe to eat and drink it. I use one cup for a 21 gal sprayer load, I know it is more than I need for the solution, but less than an amount to burn my grass. I have high pH soil so I'm ok with that amount, I'm trying to acidify it anyway.


----------



## ScottW

My city water coming out of the hose lately has been pH 9.0 to 9.5, but it doesn't have a large buffering capacity and citric acid is potent enough that it only takes a little bit. I sprinkle it in while watching the pH meter and usually shoot for pH around 5. I would guess I'm putting in 1-2 tablespoons for a 4-gal backpack sprayer, but I've never actually weighed the citric acid. I might be curious enough to do so next time.


----------



## DR_GREENTHUMB

I have been mixing my FAS this year and it's not the same color as it used to be. Does the Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate 20% Iron have a shelf life? I just read it's only good for 6 months, I purchased a big bag and didn't know if it's not as good any longer? TIA


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Just put down FAS for the first time. My tap water ph was 7.5 and after I mixed in 1/2 tbsp of citric acid in 4 gallons of tap water the ph came down to 3.5. After I mixed in the CA, I added the FAS (2oz FS w/ 1.7oz AS per 1,000 square feet). It turned green. I applied it to about half of my back yard as a test. We will see how it affects my lawn.









I applied FAS to the left side. I will repost results.


----------



## davegravy

Ohio Lawn said:


> Just put down FAS for the first time. My tap water ph was 7.5 and after I mixed in 1/2 tbsp of citric acid in 4 gallons of tap water the ph came down to 3.5. After I mixed in the CA, I added the FAS (2oz FS w/ 1.7oz AS per 1,000 square feet). It turned green. I applied it to about half of my back yard as a test. We will see how it affects my lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I applied FAS to the left side. I will repost results.


Out of curiosity have you applied FAS in the past without CA, as a point of comparison?


----------



## Ohio Lawn

davegravy said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just put down FAS for the first time. My tap water ph was 7.5 and after I mixed in 1/2 tbsp of citric acid in 4 gallons of tap water the ph came down to 3.5. After I mixed in the CA, I added the FAS (2oz FS w/ 1.7oz AS per 1,000 square feet). It turned green. I applied it to about half of my back yard as a test. We will see how it affects my lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I applied FAS to the left side. I will repost results.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Out of curiosity have you applied FAS in the past without CA, as a point of comparison?
Click to expand...

I have not.


----------



## ladycage

I have been using this for 2 years and it does a great job giving my bermuda a nice deeper green. I usually omit the AS. The Ferrous is what adds the green the Nitrogen just helps it green faster but I haven't really noticed that big of a difference when I added the AS. I have also added 1 tablespoon of 20-20-20 to the FS when I really wanted an extra boost and my lawn seemed to spread and more and thicken up. I used Ironite granules before I found this water soluble powder which is much cheaper plus I like the fact that I can increase/decrease the amount I use according to my liking.


----------



## downriverlawn

Applied this for the first time today 2oz CA, .85oz AS, and 1oz FS. The sulfer smells like a bad science experiment, but looking forward to the results. Any extra PPE used? I had rubber boots, long sleeves and a cloth mask on...


----------



## davegravy

downriverlawn said:


> Applied this for the first time today 2oz CA, .85oz AS, and 1oz FS. The sulfer smells like a bad science experiment, but looking forward to the results. Any extra PPE used? I had rubber boots, long sleeves and a cloth mask on...


Sulfur? You mean iron? Smells like someone bled out all over the lawn when I spray it.


----------



## downriverlawn

davegravy said:


> downriverlawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Applied this for the first time today 2oz CA, .85oz AS, and 1oz FS. The sulfur smells like a bad science experiment, but looking forward to the results. Any extra PPE used? I had rubber boots, long sleeves and a cloth mask on...
> 
> 
> 
> Sulfur? You mean iron? Smells like someone bled out all over the lawn when I spray it.
Click to expand...

Accurate description of the smell  "Sulfate" not sulfur, yes. I guess I wasn't familiar with the smell of iron. Results are incrementally better this morning though, so I don't mind, I think I will bump things up to 1.5oz FS next app.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

I've been intrigued by the pH discussion and ordered some pH meters. I don't know what the pH of my tap water is, it would be interesting to know for mixing up sprays.

The liquid iron product that I use has a pH of ~2.9 according to the SDS, so that should help drag down the pH of the spray, but who knows how much. Will report back when I do some testing.


----------



## Pete1313

@CarolinaCuttin, it's interesting how much an acidic iron product drops the spray tank PH. If you read thru this post from my old journal, you will see some PH work I did when I used ferromec AC.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=161180#p161180

For reference, here is a clip from my spray log for that date. 35 gallons water carrer sprayed over 38M of turf and rates of products are listed below.



Ferromec AC has a PH of 2.1-2.5 and combined with the T-nex dropped the water PH from 7.67 to 2.67. I get ferromec cheap at my local supply. I have switched to using FS to be more cost effective, but still add 12-16oz of ferromec in the 35 gal to drop the spray tank PH below 5. I played with some citric acid this year, but the ferromec is a cheap solution to dropping the PH of FS iron sprays.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

Pete1313 said:


> @CarolinaCuttin, it's interesting how much an acidic iron product drops the spray tank PH. If you read thru this post from my old journal, you will see some PH work I did when I used ferromec AC.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=161180#p161180
> 
> For reference, here is a clip from my spray log for that date. 35 gallons water carrer sprayed over 38M of turf and rates of products are listed below.
> 
> 
> 
> Ferromec AC has a PH of 2.1-2.5 and combined with the T-nex dropped the water PH from 7.67 to 2.67. I get ferromec cheap at my local supply. I have switched to using FS to be more cost effective, but still add 12-16oz of ferromec in the 35 gal to drop the spray tank PH below 5. I played with some citric acid this year, but the ferromec is a cheap solution to dropping the PH of FS iron sprays.


Great info here. I'm spraying at 1.15 gal/M (50 GPA) so I'm hoping the 3 oz/M of the micronutrient product will bring the pH to 6 or below, your post gives me great hope! I've seen Primo drop pH quickly, another great reason to spray iron and PGR together. The product I use has manganese and zinc with the iron, I wonder how spray pH effects foliar absorption of other micronutrients?

I've used Ferromec AC on my parents' yards as a cheaper alternative with great results. I paid $30 for 2.5 gallons, hard to beat that.

EDIT: Found a related article with interesting info

https://www.taurus.ag/4-reasons-ph-levels-matter-spray-solutions/


----------



## Pete1313

@CarolinaCuttin, thanks for the article! :thumbsup:


----------



## ladycage

My soil is 5.3PH and my tap water is around 6.4PH, do you know anything besides lime that will help increase the PH, I have bermuda and I want to get the PH up to about 6.5PH.

Thank you



Pete1313 said:


> @CarolinaCuttin, it's interesting how much an acidic iron product drops the spray tank PH. If you read thru this post from my old journal, you will see some PH work I did when I used ferromec AC.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=161180#p161180
> 
> For reference, here is a clip from my spray log for that date. 35 gallons water carrer sprayed over 38M of turf and rates of products are listed below.
> 
> 
> 
> Ferromec AC has a PH of 2.1-2.5 and combined with the T-nex dropped the water PH from 7.67 to 2.67. I get ferromec cheap at my local supply. I have switched to using FS to be more cost effective, but still add 12-16oz of ferromec in the 35 gal to drop the spray tank PH below 5. I played with some citric acid this year, but the ferromec is a cheap solution to dropping the PH of FS iron sprays.


----------



## Matthew_73

@GrassDaddy



GrassDaddy said:


> Hmm gonna have to try it out later in the year!


What were your thoughts?


----------



## Matthew_73

Just did a sheet of FAS according to Amazon prices and getting even measurements.

going to try this in a few weeks..


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

UPDATE! Going to tag you @Pete1313 in case you wanted to see results.

Calibrated my pH meters this evening. The pH of my tap water is 7.1, which I was pretty pleased with. The pH of my micronutrient product was 2.9, and a solution of tap water and micronutrients in the exact ratios they are sprayed produced a solution with a pH of 4.3, again very good news. I haven't had any problems with my sprays, so I wasn't expecting anything would be off, but it's good to check.

I may get some citric acid to lower the pH of my sprays containing 20-20-20 to a pH of ~3.5 which is the ideal range for foliar absorption of phosphate, but I'll continue to test everything else and anything in the 4-6 range is good unless I'm applying foliar phosphates.


----------



## g-man

@CarolinaCuttin in your linked article it linked another article by A&L Canada. It has one piece of info I've been looking for, how low is too low.


> The question; may arise as to whether it is possible to get the pH too low. Solutions having a pH of 2 .0 or lower could be expected to cause leaf burn. Dilute spray application will seldom approach pH 2.0.


 Thanks for the link.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

@g-man I totally missed that linked article, great catch! That makes me feel better about lowering it down to 3.5 in certain cases.


----------



## Pete1313

@CarolinaCuttin, thanks for sharing!


----------



## turfnsurf

Question - I do have slight areas of yellowing in my lawn. Not much, but I saw it.

My soil pH is 7.7.

Would I benefit from FAS, or is my soil pH not high enough? 
And how do I test my water pH?


----------



## g-man

It could be fungus.

Soil pH doesnt matter for FAS. You can do FAS at 7.7 or 6.0

A pH meter.


----------



## turfnsurf

g-man said:


> It could be fungus.
> 
> Soil pH doesnt matter for FAS. You can do FAS at 7.7 or 6.0
> 
> A pH meter.


I think I misunderstood the point of using this. I am not sure what soil pH renders iron uptake difficult for grass, but I assumed that using FAS was because your pH was high, and this product permitted your grass to green up because you're applying it foliarly.

If you can use it at 6.0 (when iron is probably able to be absorbed), why would someone use it in that circumstance? Just preference...like wanting a supplemental boost in color?


----------



## Grass Clippins

g-man said:


> Soil pH doesnt matter for FAS.


 Finally! :lol: I've been waiting for a moderator to answer this question.


----------



## g-man

@turfnsurf some ppl do it because they are already spraying pgr, so why not add FAS for more color.


----------



## ladycage

I use FAS because of the darker color it adds. My soil PH is 5.3 but I'm adding lime


----------



## turfnsurf

g-man said:


> @turfnsurf some ppl do it because they are already spraying pgr, so why not add FAS for more color.


Oh ok thanks.

Just wanting to distinguish the science aspect from the personal preference of the user.


----------



## Lungal09

Sorry if this has been asked in this thread already, but I am wondering if I can apply fas in this summer heat? I would probably do it in the evening when it's cooler and then water in the next morning. Day time temps are around 90 here right now.


----------



## Harts

Lungal09 said:


> Sorry if this has been asked in this thread already, but I am wondering if I can apply fas in this summer heat? I would probably do it in the evening when it's cooler and then water in the next morning. Day time temps are around 90 here right now.


I spray my FAS right through the summer. You should be fine to spray at night and run your irrigation the next morning.


----------



## Lungal09

Harts said:


> Lungal09 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if this has been asked in this thread already, but I am wondering if I can apply fas in this summer heat? I would probably do it in the evening when it's cooler and then water in the next morning. Day time temps are around 90 here right now.
> 
> 
> 
> I spray my FAS right through the summer. You should be fine to spray at night and run your irrigation the next morning.
Click to expand...

Awesome, thanks again!


----------



## The_iHenry

I made this cocktail yesterday. 
4oz Ferrous Sulfate
24oz 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate
I'm hoping this will help my bermuda fill in some bare spots.


----------



## ladycage

Please let me know how this cocktail works for you. I need something to help fill in some big bare spots in my bermuda. How often are you planning on using this mixture? Are you watering it in heavily right after application or letting it sit on the grass a while?



The_iHenry said:


> I made this cocktail yesterday.
> 4oz Ferrous Sulfate
> 24oz 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate
> I'm hoping this will help my bermuda fill in some bare spots.


----------



## The_iHenry

@ladycage this is the first time I've ever used FAS. I recently read an article about bermuda grass greens and it recommended .25lbs of nitrogen per week so I'm going to try that out. Might be too much but I won't know unless I try it. I'm getting desperate.


----------



## rjjrmiller

Iron sprays worked great for me last summer but this year I couldn't get it to turn the grass green. Also this chelated iron week killer (Fiesta) stopped working too! It used to turn dandelions black with too much iron but now doesn't do anything (it always kinda sucked as a weed killer but it absolutely made the grass spots greener, this year basically worthless.

After I found the FAS thread I a ph meter. My irrigation water pH 7.6...

I just go some citric acid and ferrous ammonium heptahydrate, do we know what ph range to aim for?


----------



## rjjrmiller

I recalibrated my ph meter with buffer solutions and re tested my homes water and its pH7.6

I slowly added citric acid water into 2 litres of my homes irrigation water until the pH was titrated all the way down to about pH5.6.....literally 100 times more acidic than it was (7.6 I've been failing foliar applications with.)

I did this to the water before adding the iron!

I sprayed the final iron and water mix over 1/3 of my back yard. Hopefully this works.


----------



## davegravy

rjjrmiller said:


> I recalibrated my ph meter with buffer solutions and re tested my homes water and its pH7.6
> 
> I slowly added citric acid water into 2 litres of my homes irrigation water until the pH was titrated all the way down to about pH5.6.....literally 100 times more acidic than it was (7.6 I've been failing foliar applications with.)
> 
> I did this to the water before adding the iron!
> 
> I sprayed the final iron and water mix over 1/3 of my back yard. Hopefully this works.


Keep us posted. I'm in the same boat... High pH water and FAS has very little good effect.


----------



## Harts

Citric acid will make a difference. It doesn't take much CA to acidify the water.


----------



## rjjrmiller

davegravy said:


> rjjrmiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recalibrated my ph meter with buffer solutions and re tested my homes water and its pH7.6
> 
> I slowly added citric acid water into 2 litres of my homes irrigation water until the pH was titrated all the way down to about pH5.6.....literally 100 times more acidic than it was (7.6 I've been failing foliar applications with.)
> 
> I did this to the water before adding the iron!
> 
> I sprayed the final iron and water mix over 1/3 of my back yard. Hopefully this works.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep us posted. I'm in the same boat... High pH water and FAS has very little good effect.
Click to expand...

I'm excited to check the lawn color tomorrow morning with my daughter. Last summer I greened my grass with iron a few times very successfully, now I appreciate what I had so much more. The grasa was so green after 1 or 2 days. My wife complimented the color saying it looked so green that it has a blueish hue to the green. And it did seem blue, in a really good sort of way.

This one issue is a big deal to me, not just for green grass but what else can't be absorbed?

Has anyone with high ph water, successfully achieved a very noticeable green up?


----------



## cbagz

So I sprayed the recipe on page one but I didn't double it to cover all 2k sqft so here are the before and after photos.







Little over 48 hours between photos


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

@ladycage The best mix I've ever seen for getting bermuda to fill in is 0.25 lbs N/M from urea every week. The fertilizer must be urea, which is one of the best known foliar fertilizers. Leave it on the leaf blade for at least 4-6 hours and then wash in with irrigation if possible (if not it won't hurt anything). Add any iron product you want to the mix to help bolster the photosynthetic process, but I promise you won't be disappointed.


----------



## ladycage

Thanks so much, I have 34-0-0 that I dissolved in hot water, I will put that down at .25/N weekly with some ferrous sulfate.
Should I spray the entire lawn or just around the areas that need filling in?



CarolinaCuttin said:


> @ladycage The best mix I've ever seen for getting bermuda to fill in is 0.25 lbs N/M from urea every week. The fertilizer must be urea, which is one of the best known foliar fertilizers. Leave it on the leaf blade for at least 4-6 hours and then wash in with irrigation if possible (if not it won't hurt anything). Add any iron product you want to the mix to help bolster the photosynthetic process, but I promise you won't be disappointed.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

@ladycage It's up to you, but unless you just really like to mow I would only spray the weak areas. Saves time and product also.


----------



## ladycage

Great, thanks so much for the advice and help. That's what I am going to do, just spray the areas that need filling.



CarolinaCuttin said:


> @ladycage It's up to you, but unless you just really like to mow I would only spray the weak areas. Saves time and product also.


----------



## downriverlawn

Sprayed FAS for the first time at the end of June. Only 1oz FS/k, but super impressed how it is surviving through this heat wave.


----------



## uts

Hey guys,

I just got into spraying foliar iron and am using FEature 6-0-0. Does the water pH make a difference in its application. I read in the thread that with FAS it matters but with a chelated agent like FEature is that a concern?


----------



## ABC123

I would lower the ph for better results.


----------



## ROJ_3030

I decided to try my hand at FAS and did two small scale tests both 20' x 5' (100sqft.) to make the math easy. The first test was full rate (4oz/M Fe and 3.4oz./M AS.) The second was half rate (2oz/M Fe and 1.7oz/M. AS.)

I order the ferrous sulphate heptahydrate from the original link at the start of this thread and found sprayable grade ammonium sulphate from a local grain supplier. I also picked up some citric acid at the grocery store.

I then divided the amounts by 10 for my scaled down test plots:

Full rate: 0.4oz FE/100sqft, 0.34oz AS/100sqft
Half rate: 0.2oz FE/100sqft, 0.17oz AS/100sqft

I weighed everything out and then started mixing.



Since I've been spraying at 2g/m I decided to mix this all at 0.2 gallons of water and used a small pump sprayer. I first adjusted hot tap water from about 8.5 down to 3.5 with a very small amount of citric acid and then dissolved the Fe followed by AS.



I used flags to mark out the two 20' x 5' and left a 5' gap between the two rows. The right side is the full rate and left side half rate. Please keep in mind my turf is slightly heat stressed, young and not very epic at the moment. Here are the results exactly 72 hours later.





What do you guys think? You can see a difference but it's not that drastic? I'd like to spray my whole yard soon but don't want to mess it up. Should I try another test even stronger or roll at the full rate for now?


----------



## ladycage

The right side definitely looks darker but like you said it's not dramatic. Maybe if you do a second application on the right side it will get darker. I am thinking about doing a second application 1 week apart to get a darker gradual green.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

@ROJ_3030 You might be lacking other micronutrients associated with greening like magnesium, manganese, sulfur, and zinc. Also, I usually mix in 0.2 lbs N/M from urea with the micro spray to keep things going. It would be interesting to see a test comparing these different nutrient combos.


----------



## rjjrmiller

davegravy said:


> rjjrmiller said:
> 
> 
> 
> I recalibrated my ph meter with buffer solutions and re tested my homes water and its pH7.6
> 
> I slowly added citric acid water into 2 litres of my homes irrigation water until the pH was titrated all the way down to about pH5.6.....literally 100 times more acidic than it was (7.6 I've been failing foliar applications with.)
> 
> I did this to the water before adding the iron!
> 
> I sprayed the final iron and water mix over 1/3 of my back yard. Hopefully this works.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep us posted. I'm in the same boat... High pH water and FAS has very little good effect.
Click to expand...

The results were clearly noticeably in the shaded parts of my lawn, which were also the spots that looked healthier and greener.

In fact the greener the grass was seemed to relate to how much greener it got. I think some spots had become semi dormant and didn't show much green up, and that's because I had been over watering and cut back to zero for 7 days leading up to adding the FAS. I did water about 10hrs after I sprayed the FAS in the morning but the day was very hot.

I have a lot of variables and I still see noticeable greening under the trees and beside the hedges in particular greened right up.

Next time I'm going to try applying it within a day of a good rain or watering, maybe that will help the grass be a bit more active and take in the iron through the leaves.


----------



## turfnsurf

The_iHenry said:


> I made this cocktail yesterday.
> 4oz Ferrous Sulfate
> 24oz 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate
> I'm hoping this will help my bermuda fill in some bare spots.


I'm curious why you're applying this in your bare spots. Do you intend to seed those spots...or is this prep before you do that?

Asking because I have bare spots, and I thought I had to wait until the fall to seed them to get good growth since we're getting high temps. If there's something I am missing, then I definitely want to clear that up now while I have time.


----------



## The_iHenry

turfnsurf said:


> The_iHenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I made this cocktail yesterday.
> 4oz Ferrous Sulfate
> 24oz 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate
> I'm hoping this will help my bermuda fill in some bare spots.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious why you're applying this in your bare spots. Do you intend to seed those spots...or is this prep before you do that?
> 
> Asking because I have bare spots, and I thought I had to wait until the fall to seed them to get good growth since we're getting high temps. If there's something I am missing, then I definitely want to clear that up now while I have time.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking the FAS will improve the soil fertility in the bare spots and allow the stolons to fill it in.


----------



## turfnsurf

The_iHenry said:


> turfnsurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The_iHenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I made this cocktail yesterday.
> 4oz Ferrous Sulfate
> 24oz 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate
> I'm hoping this will help my bermuda fill in some bare spots.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious why you're applying this in your bare spots. Do you intend to seed those spots...or is this prep before you do that?
> 
> Asking because I have bare spots, and I thought I had to wait until the fall to seed them to get good growth since we're getting high temps. If there's something I am missing, then I definitely want to clear that up now while I have time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm thinking the FAS will improve the soil fertility in the bare spots and allow the stolons to fill it in.
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware of this. I have bare spots and I just intended to overseed in the fall. I'll still do that, but since I was told that I need this also, i am going to get it ASAP.

I saw the product that is used in the original post and am considering that. I saw the below product at a local store.

What do people think about this ferrous sulfate product?


----------



## The_iHenry

turfnsurf said:


> The_iHenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turfnsurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious why you're applying this in your bare spots. Do you intend to seed those spots...or is this prep before you do that?
> 
> Asking because I have bare spots, and I thought I had to wait until the fall to seed them to get good growth since we're getting high temps. If there's something I am missing, then I definitely want to clear that up now while I have time.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the FAS will improve the soil fertility in the bare spots and allow the stolons to fill it in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't aware of this. I have bare spots and I just intended to overseed in the fall. I'll still do that, but since I was told that I need this also, i am going to get it ASAP.
> 
> I saw the product that is used in the original post and am considering that. I saw the below product at a local store.
> 
> What do people think about this ferrous sulfate product?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming FAS improves soil fertility since it's in the soil fertility discussion. I just bought the first one linked.


----------



## davegravy

The_iHenry said:


> turfnsurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The_iHenry said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm thinking the FAS will improve the soil fertility in the bare spots and allow the stolons to fill it in.
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't aware of this. I have bare spots and I just intended to overseed in the fall. I'll still do that, but since I was told that I need this also, i am going to get it ASAP.
> 
> I saw the product that is used in the original post and am considering that. I saw the below product at a local store.
> 
> What do people think about this ferrous sulfate product?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm assuming FAS improves soil fertility since it's in the soil fertility discussion. I just bought the first one linked.
Click to expand...

It should maybe be called soil/plant fertility. Although some of it inevitably washes into the soil, my understanding is FAS primary benefits are from foliar uptake. Ferrous sulfate generally gets bound up in the soil and isn't plant-available from that avenue. The ammonium sulfate however could give some small benefit from root uptake.


----------



## turfnsurf

CarolinaCuttin said:


> I've been intrigued by the pH discussion and ordered some pH meters. I don't know what the pH of my tap water is, it would be interesting to know for mixing up sprays.


@CarolinaCuttin which pH meter(s) did you settle on? Did you order multiple to try them and send back the ones that you don't like?


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

@turfnsurf https://www.amazon.com/VIVOSUN-Meter-Digital-Tester-Water/dp/B01M5IASHD/ref=mp_s_a_1_9?_encoding=UTF8&c=ts&dchild=1&keywords=Lab+pH+Meters&qid=1594637265&s=industrial&sr=1-9&ts_id=393271011

I ordered these, I got two of them just for the heck of it and they both calibrated and tested virtually identical. I was very impressed with the precision for an inexpensive meter, it will get you within 0.1 pH points which is plenty accurate for buffering spray solutions.


----------



## kolbasz

How does this compare do the double dark n-ext combo?


----------



## KoopHawk

Is it necessary to lower the ph of your water for all spraying applications? Urea, fungicides, herbicides, etc?


----------



## Pete1313

@KoopHawk this is a good one for fungicides/herbicides.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.seminar.asianturfgrass.com/stmia17/patton_ph_water_hardness_handout.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo29TM_M3qAhVQbc0KHaCmDzcQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3mFwqQZAZEh4HSoy0BAeZw

Not a ton of info for fertilizers, urea should be good at any PH. Unless otherwise stated, a PH of 5 is a good target for most fertilizers.


----------



## KoopHawk

Pete1313 said:


> @KoopHawk this is a good one for fungicides/herbicides.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.seminar.asianturfgrass.com/stmia17/patton_ph_water_hardness_handout.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjo29TM_M3qAhVQbc0KHaCmDzcQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3mFwqQZAZEh4HSoy0BAeZw
> 
> Not a ton of info for fertilizers, urea should be good at any PH. Unless otherwise stated, a PH of 5 is a good target for most fertilizers.


Thanks Pete!


----------



## Cam3113

My front lawn is roughly 6k sq feet or so... I'd love to try this.. Do I want to just order the two products in the original post? And is it 1gal water perk 1k sq ft? Thanks all


----------



## g-man

Yes. You can add citric acid to lower your water pH if you want to.


----------



## Easyluck

What rates should be used to kill moss? Is 4oz/m ferrous sulfate Strong enough?

Edit::
After searching around I finally found a recommenced amount listed on Greenway Biotech's website.

https://www.greenwaybiotech.com/products/ferrous-sulfate?variant=1556794561&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&utm_campaign=gs-2020-02-17&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=EAIaIQobChMImobRlPu56wIVDTiGCh3lbQ-eEAQYASABEgLA9PD_BwE

" How to Kill Moss with Ferrous (Iron) Sulfate:

1. Mix 1/4 to 1/2 Pounds of Greenway Biotech, Inc. Ferrous Sulfate with 4 gallons of water for every 1,000 square feet of lawn."


----------



## occamsrzr

I've been experimenting with using Fulvic Acid in my FAS mix. It acts as a weak chelator in the same way as Citric Acid does. Also has biostimulant properties to increase upregulation of genes responsible for Iron uptake.

@Greendoc has talked about similar recipes he uses and how quick he notices an effect. His recipe also includes Magnesium Sulfate so something much closer to FEature.


----------



## Pezking7p

Pete1313 said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Keep in mind that AS is directly absorbable by the plants and useable in it's delivered form. Urea needs the urease enzyme to act on it before the plant can use it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I initially thought as well, but I don't believe it is the case anymore. The urea is still absorbed by the leaf and converted into usable N when sprayed foliarly while never interacting with urease that is in the thatch/soil. This is a webinar from 2012 titled "The Ins and Outs of Foliar Fertilizers", where Elizabeth Guertal, Ph.D., Auburn University talked alot about foliar fertilization and especially using urea. In there was talk about how long it takes for different amounts of N from urea to be translocated to new leaves, old leaves, and roots. All while sitting on the leaf and not being washed down where the urease is. She said as well that as long as the urea sits on the leaves, it is not subject to any volatilization as it does not come in contact with the urease.
Click to expand...

Wondering if urea can be substituted for AS in the mix? I did a quick search but was not quite able to tell for certain.

I saw @Pete1313 commented that Urea has been shown to uptake just as well as AS foliarly, but I didn't see a follow up on that line of comments.

Is AS included strictly for the N content, or is there some other mechanism specific to AS that improves the outcome of spraying iron?


----------



## Harts

AS can be omitted entirely. Urea can also be used in its place.

I have sprayed this mix when I ran out of AS. I used 0.5lb Urea to get 1/4lb N per 1,000.


----------



## g-man

AMS helps with lowering the water pH. That's the main benefit over urea, but both work.


----------



## Pete1313

^ what these guys said. :thumbsup: 
I'll only add that AMS will only lower the tank PH some, so if high water PH is an issue, you might want to look into adding citric acid to drop the tank PH as well. AMS does eliminate hard water antagonism in spray tank mixtures (when added at 8.5-17 lbs per 100 gallons carrier). Hard water antagonism is a concern with certain herbicides, but is not clear to me if hard water antagonism is an issue when spraying ferrous sulfate.


----------



## Pezking7p

Thanks guys. Based on this my plan is Citric + FS + Urea

I need to check if we have hard water, but I can say for sure that the herbicides I've mixed so far it has not been an issue, but I'll make sure to check it out in the future.


----------



## Justmatson

Pete1313 said:


> ^ what these guys said. :thumbsup:
> I'll only add that AMS will only lower the tank PH some, so if high water PH is an issue, you might want to look into adding citric acid to drop the tank PH as well. AMS does eliminate hard water antagonism in spray tank mixtures (when added at 8.5-17 lbs per 100 gallons carrier). Hard water antagonism is a concern with certain herbicides, but is not clear to me if hard water antagonism is an issue when spraying ferrous sulfate.


Question.... not sure if it matters but I cannot get my water to turn blue, like most, after adding FE. 
I don't have a pH meter but I know my water is on the alkaline side (based on my hot tub strips) and its hard. (Well water) 
I tried with just a few grams of CA then I've gone as heavy as 1oz per gallon. Stays a lime green/yellow color.
Another issue I'm seeing is, I can barely get to 2oz of FE per 1000sq. The grass doesn't respond well. Gets the hint of ugly brown look, especially the tips. I do wash off after 3-4hrs.
I've been doing 1.5oz and it works but not as dark as I think it can be. (< I could be wrong, maybe its as dark as the cultivars will go)

Wondering if its my hard water or some other chemistry issue.

Going to try soft water next time.


----------



## NateDawg24

Justmatson said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ what these guys said. :thumbsup:
> I'll only add that AMS will only lower the tank PH some, so if high water PH is an issue, you might want to look into adding citric acid to drop the tank PH as well. AMS does eliminate hard water antagonism in spray tank mixtures (when added at 8.5-17 lbs per 100 gallons carrier). Hard water antagonism is a concern with certain herbicides, but is not clear to me if hard water antagonism is an issue when spraying ferrous sulfate.
> 
> 
> 
> Question.... not sure if it matters but I cannot get my water to turn blue, like most, after adding FE.
> I don't have a pH meter but I know my water is on the alkaline side (based on my hot tub strips) and its hard. (Well water)
> I tried with just a few grams of CA then I've gone as heavy as 1oz per gallon. Stays a lime green/yellow color.
> Another issue I'm seeing is, I can barely get to 2oz of FE per 1000sq. The grass doesn't respond well. Gets the hint of ugly brown look, especially the tips. I do wash off after 3-4hrs.
> I've been doing 1.5oz and it works but not as dark as I think it can be. (< I could be wrong, maybe its as dark as the cultivars will go)
> 
> Wondering if its my hard water or some other chemistry issue.
> 
> Going to try soft water next time.
Click to expand...

Justin,
I would think that maybe the brown tips on your lawn might be from the spray being too acidic. 1oz of citric acid is crazy high. I have very alkaline water (8+). Maybe it's just a difference with how people are describing the colour. My colour with a ph of around 5 is more on the greenish side of things. If I used my tap water the water with the iron in it is more of an orange colour. With a ph of over 8 on my tap water I use one pinch of citric acid per gallon (I literally just put in what fits between two fingers). That combined with a couple ounces of AMS dramatically lowers the ph.

I have gone up to 4 ounces of FE and it doesn't effect the grass much, when you have too much the whole grass blade turns a greyish-black, kind of looks like you put down too much humic acid or something.

I had similar levels to this website when I was playing around with my ph meter
https://mattgadient.com/my-attempts-at-adjusting-ph-for-plants-with-vinegar-and-citric-acid/

With that said maybe there is another factor with your well water, just sharing my experience.


----------



## Justmatson

NateDawg24 said:


> Justmatson said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ what these guys said. :thumbsup:
> I'll only add that AMS will only lower the tank PH some, so if high water PH is an issue, you might want to look into adding citric acid to drop the tank PH as well. AMS does eliminate hard water antagonism in spray tank mixtures (when added at 8.5-17 lbs per 100 gallons carrier). Hard water antagonism is a concern with certain herbicides, but is not clear to me if hard water antagonism is an issue when spraying ferrous sulfate.
> 
> 
> 
> Question.... not sure if it matters but I cannot get my water to turn blue, like most, after adding FE.
> I don't have a pH meter but I know my water is on the alkaline side (based on my hot tub strips) and its hard. (Well water)
> I tried with just a few grams of CA then I've gone as heavy as 1oz per gallon. Stays a lime green/yellow color.
> Another issue I'm seeing is, I can barely get to 2oz of FE per 1000sq. The grass doesn't respond well. Gets the hint of ugly brown look, especially the tips. I do wash off after 3-4hrs.
> I've been doing 1.5oz and it works but not as dark as I think it can be. (< I could be wrong, maybe its as dark as the cultivars will go)
> 
> Wondering if its my hard water or some other chemistry issue.
> 
> Going to try soft water next time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Justin,
> I would think that maybe the brown tips on your lawn might be from the spray being too acidic. 1oz of citric acid is crazy high. I have very alkaline water (8+). Maybe it's just a difference with how people are describing the colour. My colour with a ph of around 5 is more on the greenish side of things. If I used my tap water the water with the iron in it is more of an orange colour. With a ph of over 8 on my tap water I use one pinch of citric acid per gallon (I literally just put in what fits between two fingers). That combined with a couple ounces of AMS dramatically lowers the ph.
> 
> I have gone up to 4 ounces of FE and it doesn't effect the grass much, when you have too much the whole grass blade turns a greyish-black, kind of looks like you put down too much humic acid or something.
> 
> I had similar levels to this website when I was playing around with my ph meter
> https://mattgadient.com/my-attempts-at-adjusting-ph-for-plants-with-vinegar-and-citric-acid/
> 
> With that said maybe there is another factor with your well water, just sharing my experience.
Click to expand...

Thanks man!

I know when I first started without CA the Ferrous Sulfate would not (or most of it) dissolve and the water was orange.
Then like you said I added such a small amount and it took no effort at all to dissolve. Plus I got that lime green colour. I have seen some guys get it very blue.

Today was just an experiment. I'll be going back to a pinch.

Even before I started using CA I would get the brown tips. I think thats because I was spraying right after a mow and the iron was burning the open wounds (only thing i can think of) lots of times I was spraying in the evening then rinsing off in the morning. Maybe leaving it on to long, with an open cut?

Today i sprayed in the morning then ran my sprinklers 5hrs later. Also haven't mowed for 2 days. 
I'll report back tomorrow or the following day with the results.

If i don't see the browning or "burnt tips" I'll start narrowing down the cause.


----------



## dleonard11122

I've got a dummy question for those who use 6-0-0 FEature or Main Event. I just picked up the Main Event and it's literally a packed brick of powder. The stuff is like rock solid inside the bag. So much so that I was trying to break it up a little (thinking it'd separate into just powder) I actually punctured the side of the bag and had to get a large zip-loc bag to put the (now punctured) bag inside of.

If I want to only use 1/3 of this brick at a time, is there an easy way people have found to measure out and split these?


----------



## npompei

dleonard11122 said:


> I've got a dummy question for those who use 6-0-0 FEature or Main Event. I just picked up the Main Event and it's literally a packed brick of powder. The stuff is like rock solid inside the bag. So much so that I was trying to break it up a little (thinking it'd separate into just powder) I actually punctured the side of the bag and had to get a large zip-loc bag to put the (now punctured) bag inside of.
> 
> If I want to only use 1/3 of this brick at a time, is there an easy way people have found to measure out and split these?


Hmmm, not sure about Main Event but my bags of FEature are soft. Sounds like that may have gotten wet and solidified inside? And my bags say you can use 1-2 bags per 1 acre of yard. So I was going to use 3/4 of a bag my first try. See how that goes.

And not to sound super strange or anal but when would you guys apply this? Would you put it down a day or 2 before you mow? I only ask because once I mow, I don't want to run over the lawn with my crappy riding mower and tow sprayer and mess up my nice stripes! I know, first world problems. Just curious how and when you apply compared to a mow.


----------



## dleonard11122

@npompei I plan on spraying immediately after I mow. I'm sure the stripes will get messed up a little bit, but in 3 days I'll mow again and I'm sure the lawn will be jumping by that point, so putting down new stripes shouldn't be an issue.


----------



## dleonard11122

Is .25#N/M safe to spray on new TTTF grass seedlings (14 DAG.) I can run my irrigation at a certain point to wash it off if that helps.


----------



## JERSEY

Anyone have a good rate of citric to mix in FAS /1000?

Ive had good results with 2oz AS 3 to 4 oz FS. wondering how much citric guys are pinching in to help "chelation".


----------



## Grass Clippins

JERSEY said:


> Anyone have a good rate of citric to mix in FAS /1000?
> 
> Ive had good results with 2oz AS 3 to 4 oz FS. wondering how much citric guys are pinching in to help "chelation".


I thinks its a 2:1 CA to FS. Earlier in the post Greendoc said, in the past, he used 2 oz FS per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. CA goes in water before FS, that's supposed to be important. Wait for someone to verify that though. I was considering using FAS but took a step back because I didn't and still don't fully understand if I need it.


----------



## JERSEY

I am pretty sure 4 oz of citric is wrong. thats alot.


----------



## Grass Clippins

@JERSEY

I know it does seem like a lot but that what he does. They talk about it on page 27, I had to double check to make sure I wasn't telling tales. Maybe he'll chime in to confirm.



Greendoc said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.
> 
> 
> 
> You meant to type 4 and not .4, right? I have only been using .1 oz of CA and 2-3 oz of FS. It sounds like I need to up my citric acid quite a bit. :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is correct. 4 oz Citric Acid. At that rate it begins to chelate the Iron. It is not as good as EDDHA or even EDTA, but it is something. Keep this mix away from concrete and painted surfaces, because in contact with concrete, the Citric will react with the Calcium in that and leave the Iron free to stain. Paints are normally composed of pigments mixed with finely ground Calcium Carbonate. That has the same reaction.
Click to expand...


----------



## Greendoc

Correct. Up to 2x as much Citric Acid by weight vs Ferrous Sulfate.


----------



## Dkrem

JERSEY said:


> I am pretty sure 4 oz of citric is wrong. thats alot.


I use one cup of citric acid per load of FAS mix in my 21 gal sprayer, which is 5 pounds of Ferrous sulfate and about ten pounds of Ammonium Sulfate. This was trial and error for me to acidify the water enough to keep it the beautiful pale blue green, and not have it oxidize to orange in the tank with my particular from the tap high pH water chemistry. YMMV.


----------



## JERSEY

thanks DKrem

what is your final target PH in tank?


----------



## Harts

I literally use a pinch of CA. I don't even measure because it's such a small amount.

4oz would likely bring the PH of you water down too low.

I would buy a PH tester and see where your water is actually at. The AMS will also lower PH.


----------



## Dkrem

JERSEY said:


> thanks DKrem
> 
> what is your final target PH in tank?


I don't know. I was trying to figure out why the solution was turning orange, and it is because my water is high pH and the ammonium sulfate wasn't acidifying it enough by itself. I added a half cup of citric acid on the next batch, which I already had in the house for cleaning, It took a little longer, minutes not seconds, but it still turned orange. The third batch I added a full cup of citric acid and that did the trick, stayed nice and blue. I probably should have done my test batches in a gallon container instead of full sprayer tanks, but anyway....

I also found out the orange spray would stain my concrete but the blue stuff does not, no stains right away, or later.


----------



## JERSEY

very interesting and thanks for sharing that.


----------



## marcjw

I was just wondering if using ferrous ammonium sulfate will lower pH? Is it ok to use if you're trying to raise pH?


----------



## corneliani

marcjw said:


> I was just wondering if using ferrous ammonium sulfate will lower pH? Is it ok to use if you're trying to raise pH?


Ammonium sulfate does have acidifying properties but in these small rates & doses itll have a very very minimal effect. If you don't want any of that consider using other nitrogen sources like soluble urea, for ex.


----------



## marcjw

corneliani said:


> marcjw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just wondering if using ferrous ammonium sulfate will lower pH? Is it ok to use if you're trying to raise pH?
> 
> 
> 
> Ammonium sulfate does have acidifying properties but in these small rates & doses itll have a very very minimal effect. If you don't want any of that consider using other nitrogen sources like soluble urea, for ex.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir


----------



## Harts

marcjw said:


> I was just wondering if using ferrous ammonium sulfate will lower pH? Is it ok to use if you're trying to raise pH?


FAS is not intended to lower soil PH. It is preferred in higher PH soil due to the fact the iron is being absorbed through the grass blades instead of the roots. But it can also be used in lower PH soils.

Ammonium sulfate will help lower the PH of your water to a degree, but it does not have any significant impact on your soil.


----------



## marcjw

Harts said:


> marcjw said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just wondering if using ferrous ammonium sulfate will lower pH? Is it ok to use if you're trying to raise pH?
> 
> 
> 
> FAS is not intended to lower soil PH. It is preferred in higher PH soil due to the fact the iron is being absorbed through the grass blades instead of the roots. But it can also be used in lower PH soils.
> 
> Ammonium sulfate will help lower the PH of your water to a degree, but it does not have any significant impact on your soil.
Click to expand...

Oh I see. Now I understand. Thank you!


----------



## Jonslawn

Just ordered my FAS, I've got a bit of a wait but in the mean time I am just curious as to what your using the spray this product down? Can I use those small adaptors straight to the hose or is it better to mix it in a 5Gal pump sprayer? I have approx 2k lawn an wasn't sure about the Citric Acid if I should order that as well an if someone has a link for which they use in Canada?

Thanks!!


----------



## corneliani

Jonslawn said:


> Just ordered my FAS, I've got a bit of a wait but in the mean time I am just curious as to what your using the spray this product down? Can I use those small adaptors straight to the hose or is it better to mix it in a 5Gal pump sprayer? I have approx 2k lawn an wasn't sure about the Citric Acid if I should order that as well an if someone has a link for which they use in Canada?
> 
> Thanks!!


Since unchelates iron is best applied foliarly it would be best to apply it with something that gives you no more than 1-gal/1000 carrier, ideally a fine droplet sprayer nozzle.


----------



## Harts

Jonslawn said:


> Just ordered my FAS, I've got a bit of a wait but in the mean time I am just curious as to what your using the spray this product down? Can I use those small adaptors straight to the hose or is it better to mix it in a 5Gal pump sprayer? I have approx 2k lawn an wasn't sure about the Citric Acid if I should order that as well an if someone has a link for which they use in Canada?
> 
> Thanks!!


I would use a pump sprayer for FAS. Citric acid isn't absolutely necessary. If you need it, you can get it on Amazon as well.

Don't use a hose end sprayer. The droplets are too big.

If the mixture turns orange, your water PH is too high - in which case CA will help lower it. If it stay blue, the PH is fine. I've had good results with and without CA.


----------



## SEKBrian

How blue is it supposed to look? As blue as the water at like a mini golf course?


----------



## Harts

SEKBrian said:


> How blue is it supposed to look? As blue as the water at like a mini golf course?


Light blue. It's hard to explain. You'll know it when you see it. It just shouldn't be orange. But even if it is, you'll still see results.


----------



## jperm47

I was planning to tank mix FAS with T-Nex PGR in the following ratios for my TTTF / KBG in my 4 gallon M4Sons Backpack sprayer. My sprayer does about 1k sq feet per gallon of water so roughly 4 gallons = 4k square feet

- 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate and 3.4 oz of Ammonium Sulfate per 1 gallon of warm water
- 3oz of T-Nex (0.75 * 4 gallons of water)

Mix all this in warm water in a bucket and then dump that into my M4Sons sprayer. I read that the mixing order should be Ammonium sulfate & PGR first and then add the Ferrous Sulfate. Planned to use my XR110004 teejet nozzle also for application since foliar

Can someone confirm my plan of attack above and ratios?


----------



## VALawnNoob

jperm47 said:


> I was planning to tank mix FAS with T-Nex PGR in the following ratios for my TTTF / KBG in my 4 gallon M4Sons Backpack sprayer. My sprayer does about 1k sq feet per gallon of water so roughly 4 gallons = 4k square feet
> 
> - 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate and 3.4 oz of Ammonium Sulfate per 1 gallon of warm water
> - 3oz of T-Nex (0.75 * 4 gallons of water)
> 
> Mix all this in warm water in a bucket and then dump that into my M4Sons sprayer. I read that the mixing order should be Ammonium sulfate & PGR first and then add the Ferrous Sulfate. Planned to use my XR110004 teejet nozzle also for application since foliar
> 
> Can someone confirm my plan of attack above and ratios?


@jperm47 the 0.75 rate of T-Nex is for TTF. Since you have *** mix, perhaps you should start at the *** rate? If you have done it in the past without bronzing then nevermind.

Slightly off-topic, for those of you who have used Feature 6-0-0, what color is that? Mine is like pink/orange color and this thread is making me wonder if my water source is too high in PH.


----------



## jperm47

VALawnNoob said:


> jperm47 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning to tank mix FAS with T-Nex PGR in the following ratios for my TTTF / KBG in my 4 gallon M4Sons Backpack sprayer. My sprayer does about 1k sq feet per gallon of water so roughly 4 gallons = 4k square feet
> 
> - 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate and 3.4 oz of Ammonium Sulfate per 1 gallon of warm water
> - 3oz of T-Nex (0.75 * 4 gallons of water)
> 
> Mix all this in warm water in a bucket and then dump that into my M4Sons sprayer. I read that the mixing order should be Ammonium sulfate & PGR first and then add the Ferrous Sulfate. Planned to use my XR110004 teejet nozzle also for application since foliar
> 
> Can someone confirm my plan of attack above and ratios?
> 
> 
> 
> @jperm47 the 0.75 rate of T-Nex is for TTF. Since you have *** mix, perhaps you should start at the *** rate? If you have done it in the past without bronzing then nevermind.
> 
> Slightly off-topic, for those of you who have used Feature 6-0-0, what color is that? Mine is like pink/orange color and this thread is making me wonder if my water source is too high in PH.
Click to expand...

It's probably 75/25 TTTF / KBG so can back off the application slightly. Maybe do .70 oz per 1k square feet to account for the lower KBG rate


----------



## Jonslawn

I just got my product in the mail going to try it this week but I have fresh seed down will that effect the seed and also is the only purpose for fas to make the lawn richer green or does it make the lawn healthier as well?


----------



## Harts

Jonslawn said:


> I just got my product in the mail going to try it this week but I have fresh seed down will that effect the seed and also is the only purpose for fas to make the lawn richer green or does it make the lawn healthier as well?


It does provide 'some" value to your turf, but it isn't packed full of nutrients. The major benefit from FAS is the almost instant colour it provides. That's what I use it for. I don't use it as a turf supplement on its own.

I would wait until you have mowed the new grass 2-3 times before applying.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I wouldn't say it's purely cosmetic as it does provide some nutrients to the grass but I do get what you are saying.


----------



## Harts

Mightyquinn said:


> I wouldn't say it's purely cosmetic as it does provide some nutrients to the grass but I do get what you are saying.


Totally fair. I have edited my post above so as not to mislead someone reading this post for the first time.

Thanks for pointing that out.


----------



## Bean4Me

I sprayed FAS at 2oz/2oz to 1gallon over a test area about 500sqft on Friday. On Saturday I didn't notice any response so I sprayed the other half of the mixture. I expected to have black grass this morning but I still don't see much of a response.

Am I missing something? I didn't check the PH and I didn't use any surfactant.


----------



## g-man

What did you spray of what? 1g into 500ksqft? 2oz of ferrous sulfate by weight? AMS into the water first? What color was the mixture?


----------



## Bean4Me

g-man said:


> What did you spray of what? 1g into 500ksqft? 2oz of ferrous sulfate by weight? AMS into the water first? What color was the mixture?


I weighed out 2oz of ams then 2oz of fs. I put them in a container and put hot tap water in. The mixture dissolved pretty clean. It was brown in color but pretty clear. I put that into a 1 gallon sprayer and then sprayed about half of it on Friday. No response so I sprayed the second half of it on Saturday. This morning same situation.

I also applied SOP yesterday before the spray but I don't think that should impact anything.

I have 50# of ams and 50# of fs so I'd like to make this fas work if possible.


----------



## g-man

You should mix water and AMS first into 1g of water. After mix, then add the FS. If the water turns brown, the iron is not going to work (not available). Do a new mix with more AMS or add citric acid and/or try with soft water. The final mix should be green/blue color.

Use a piece of card board and place it flat in the lawn. Spray the lawn over the card board. This way you will be able to tell if the iron is working (a lite green square).


----------



## Bean4Me

g-man said:


> You should mix water and AMS first into 1g of water. After mix, then add the FS. If the water turns brown, the iron is not going to work (not available). Do a new mix with more AMS or add citric acid and/or try with soft water. The final mix should be green/blue color.
> 
> Use a piece of card board and place it flat in the lawn. Spray the lawn over the card board. This way you will be able to tell if the iron is working (a lite green square).


I think my AMS is "dirty" because its not spray grade but just spreader grade? its brown when mixed.

I tried water + vinegar (acid i had available) and 2.5oz AMS then 2.0oz FS. The mix was the same brown but if I let it sit awhile it seems to "clear up" into a brown/green tint (like algae water?) and there is a little bit of foam head on top and some rocks on the bottom. I'm doing this in a 20oz clear container as a premix. After reading many of the posts, do I need to pick up citric acid and a pH meter in order to get more acidic and get the light blue color?

Anyways i'll try to spray this mixture later and see if I get any results.


----------



## g-man

Don't spray vinegar. It will cause left burn.


----------



## Bean4Me

Well I think my FAS mix worked because my grass has turned "black" in the areas I sprayed with 2 applications of FAS back to back. I think my AMS is just dirty and thats why my mix was always brown as soon as I add in the AMS, not oxidation from the FS as I was thinking. I think I've come to the conclusion that my grass variety just doesn't turn dark green like others in the neighborhood. Probably just due to older variety or cheap variety.

It does get dark green around dog pee spots, Can I just dump more nitrogen on the lawn to simulate the dog pee? The middle of my test plot for FAS had a dog pee spot and the dog pee spot continues to be noticeably greener than the FAS application.



Do I just need to feed it N to push out this black?


----------



## davegravy

Bean4Me said:


> Well I think my FAS mix worked because my grass has turned "black" in the areas I sprayed with 2 applications of FAS back to back. I think my AMS is just dirty and thats why my mix was always brown as soon as I add in the AMS, not oxidation from the FS as I was thinking. I think I've come to the conclusion that my grass variety just doesn't turn dark green like others in the neighborhood. Probably just due to older variety or cheap variety.
> 
> It does get dark green around dog pee spots, Can I just dump more nitrogen on the lawn to simulate the dog pee? The middle of my test plot for FAS had a dog pee spot and the dog pee spot continues to be noticeably greener than the FAS application.
> 
> 
> 
> Do I just need to feed it N to push out this black?


It's not just older varieties of grass that don't take FAS. I just renoed last fall with elite KBG and it's not happy at all with the stuff. I'm playing with the rates but so far either there's no noticeable effect or it goes a bit black or it goes really black. It never goes darker without the sickly black look.

I haven't played with different amounts of time leaving it on the leaf before watering, nor different carrier volumes. One benefit is its really highlighted the fact my spray technique sucks because I get obvious banding.

Might have to switch to FEature.


----------



## gwolf64

Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!


----------



## Harts

gwolf64 said:


> Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!


This makes me so angry. I got that exact same bag from a supplier near me in Canada. $80


----------



## gwolf64

Harts said:


> gwolf64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so angry. I got that exact same bag from a supplier near me in Canada. $80
Click to expand...

Wow. That sucks. I was mad because I bought 5 LBs on Amazon for $20.


----------



## SodFace

gwolf64 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gwolf64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so angry. I got that exact same bag from a supplier near me in Canada. $80
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow. That sucks. I was mad because I bought 5 LBs on Amazon for $20.
Click to expand...

5lb Alpha Chemicals Ferrous Sulfate $28 here on Amazon. Not too far off there I guess.


----------



## davegravy

gwolf64 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gwolf64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so angry. I got that exact same bag from a supplier near me in Canada. $80
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow. That sucks. I was mad because I bought 5 LBs on Amazon for $20.
Click to expand...

Allturf.ca is $34 including delivery for 50lbs.

That said I still don't understand the big draw with FAS. I've never been able to get it to make any positive difference.


----------



## Bean4Me

davegravy said:


> gwolf64 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> This makes me so angry. I got that exact same bag from a supplier near me in Canada. $80
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. That sucks. I was mad because I bought 5 LBs on Amazon for $20.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Allturf.ca is $34 including delivery for 50lbs.
> 
> That said I still don't understand the big draw with FAS. I've never been able to get it to make any positive difference.
Click to expand...

That is what I picked up a few weeks ago for $16.49 locally so now I have 50lbs of FS and FAS didn't really produce any green up. My blackened lawn finally grew out. Guess I'll just spread the AMS and FS at this point.


----------



## gwolf64

Ya. I sprayed some last weekend. I'm not impressed by the results. I follow everything by the book. Oh well. I may have wasted $19


----------



## Harts

@davegravy i know you've struggled with it. I've had nothing but great results the last two years. Wish we could figure what the issue is.


----------



## corneliani

I use that same stuff and find that it clogged my XR tips if I don't mix it in advance, and/or filter it before spraying. Is this something you guys dealt with as well?


----------



## Bean4Me

corneliani said:


> I use that same stuff and find that it clogged my XR tips if I don't mix it in advance, and/or filter it before spraying. Is this something you guys dealt with as well?


Mine dissolved really clean. The ams didn't dissolve as cleanly though.


----------



## g-man

@Bean4Me If the grass turned black, the iron is entering the plant. Iron is just part of the overall equation to make more chlorophyll (green). The plant needs to be 1) growing, 2) have proper irrigation to move water/nutrients and 3) sun.

I suggest doing a control area that it is not treated so you can visually compare.


----------



## KoopHawk

Is ferrous sulfate comparable to FEature? Or do you need to pair it with AMS?


----------



## Bean4Me

g-man said:


> @Bean4Me If the grass turned black, the iron is entering the plant. Iron is just part of the overall equation to make more chlorophyll (green). The plant needs to be 1) growing, 2) have proper irrigation to move water/nutrients and 3) sun.
> 
> I suggest doing a control area that it is not treated so you can visually compare.


@g-man I did keep a control area. I sprayed half my front lawn. I expected to see a line where I stopped the application in the middle of my front lawn but I didn't see anything. Maybe I'll do the square in the middle this time like you originally suggested.

I got my citric acid so Ill try a few more batches at a lower pH. I measured my water pH and its at 7.6. Maybe the grass will respond better at ~6.5 pH? I know I'm also deficient in K as well so I'm working on putting that into the soil this season with SOP. Not sure on other micros but I know my lawn responds to milo and rapture, just not FAS.


----------



## davegravy

@g-man if the lawn is turning black but I'm using the recommended dose for cool season, and it's ~70F outside, and the lawn is well fertilized and watered and growing rapidly... Is there anything left to try? I've done lighter applications but then I just don't get any response. It goes from 0 to black and sickly, there seems to be no "dark green" in the middle.


----------



## g-man

Your backyard looks pretty good. At some point you will reach the max color the grass type can handle.


----------



## frekwentflier

g-man said:


> You should mix water and AMS first into 1g of water. After mix, then add the FS. If the water turns brown, the iron is not going to work (not available). Do a new mix with more AMS or add citric acid and/or try with soft water. The final mix should be green/blue color.


I've tried all of the above using Rural King AMS and K4L FES. I went as high as 4 ounces of AMS to 2 ounces of FS, and even threw in some citric acid. Even using softened water, the best color I can get is a pale yellow. Nothing close to blue or green. I notice when I strain it into my sprayer, there are brown chunks that basically look like rust in the strainer.

I wish I had just paid for liquid iron now. Is brown/yellow completely useless, or is it just not as potent as blue/green?

Next time I'm going to try with distilled water, but if anybody has any suggestions, I sure would appreciate them. thx


----------



## Dkrem

more acid in the mix before you add the FS.


----------



## davegravy

frekwentflier said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should mix water and AMS first into 1g of water. After mix, then add the FS. If the water turns brown, the iron is not going to work (not available). Do a new mix with more AMS or add citric acid and/or try with soft water. The final mix should be green/blue color.
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried all of the above using Rural King AMS and K4L FES. I went as high as 4 ounces of AMS to 2 ounces of FS, and even threw in some citric acid. Even using softened water, the best color I can get is a pale yellow. Nothing close to blue or green. I notice when I strain it into my sprayer, there are brown chunks that basically look like rust in the strainer.
> 
> I wish I had just paid for liquid iron now. Is brown/yellow completely useless, or is it just not as potent as blue/green?
> 
> Next time I'm going to try with distilled water, but if anybody has any suggestions, I sure would appreciate them. thx
Click to expand...

Do you have a pH meter? I got a cheap one off ebay, kept adding citric acid until pH dropped to something like 5, then added my FS.


----------



## gwolf64

I've been spraying the yellow/orange or years! Is a blue/green color preferred? How do I do I make it green/blue?!?!? Wow I think I've been wasting FAS for years.


----------



## Bean4Me

I sprayed my brownish yellow mixture and the lawn didn't appear to respond but when I doubled sprayed it def got black so something is happening. Both applications were 2oz/2oz mix.


----------



## gwolf64

I did some reading.... So it seems like citric acid will drop the PH? and PH controls the color of the mixture?


----------



## frekwentflier

davegravy said:


> frekwentflier said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried all of the above using Rural King AMS and K4L FES. I went as high as 4 ounces of AMS to 2 ounces of FS, and even threw in some citric acid. Even using softened water, the best color I can get is a pale yellow. Nothing close to blue or green. I notice when I strain it into my sprayer, there are brown chunks that basically look like rust in the strainer.
> 
> I wish I had just paid for liquid iron now. Is brown/yellow completely useless, or is it just not as potent as blue/green?
> 
> Next time I'm going to try with distilled water, but if anybody has any suggestions, I sure would appreciate them. thx
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a pH meter? I got a cheap one off ebay, kept adding citric acid until pH dropped to something like 5, then added my FS.
Click to expand...

Thank you, I will try this out.


----------



## davegravy

frekwentflier said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> frekwentflier said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried all of the above using Rural King AMS and K4L FES. I went as high as 4 ounces of AMS to 2 ounces of FS, and even threw in some citric acid. Even using softened water, the best color I can get is a pale yellow. Nothing close to blue or green. I notice when I strain it into my sprayer, there are brown chunks that basically look like rust in the strainer.
> 
> I wish I had just paid for liquid iron now. Is brown/yellow completely useless, or is it just not as potent as blue/green?
> 
> Next time I'm going to try with distilled water, but if anybody has any suggestions, I sure would appreciate them. thx
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a pH meter? I got a cheap one off ebay, kept adding citric acid until pH dropped to something like 5, then added my FS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, I will try this out.
Click to expand...

No problem. Note that I reliably get blue FAS mixes instead of yellow brown that I used to get, but I still don't get much benefit from FAS so I can't say a blue mix is a silver bullet.

YMMV


----------



## frekwentflier

davegravy said:


> No problem. Note that I reliably get blue FAS mixes instead of yellow brown that I used to get, but I still don't get much benefit from FAS so I can't say a blue mix is a silver bullet.
> 
> YMMV


Have you ever compared FAS vs. other iron sources? I get a great greenup from Milorganite, but I don't want to put that down too often.

Maybe paying extra for chelated iron is worth the cost? Or perhaps your lawn is so green that FAS isn't going to make any difference?


----------



## Harts

frekwentflier said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. Note that I reliably get blue FAS mixes instead of yellow brown that I used to get, but I still don't get much benefit from FAS so I can't say a blue mix is a silver bullet.
> 
> YMMV
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever compared FAS vs. other iron sources? I get a great greenup from Milorganite, but I don't want to put that down too often.
> 
> Maybe paying extra for chelated iron is worth the cost? Or perhaps your lawn is so green that FAS isn't going to make any difference?
Click to expand...

Our options in Canada are limited. We can bring certain products in, but at a significant cost + shipping.

FWIW, I've tried to the Southern AG Chelated iron. I wasn't impressed.

@davegravy I still have some left. I don't recall how much is in the jug, but you are welcome to it. I don't want anything for it.


----------



## Dkrem

gwolf64 said:


> I've been spraying the yellow/orange or years! Is a blue/green color preferred? How do I do I make it green/blue?!?!? Wow I think I've been wasting FAS for years.


Green/blue didn't stain my concrete, orange did.


----------



## Harts

gwolf64 said:


> I did some reading.... So it seems like citric acid will drop the PH? and PH controls the color of the mixture?


The colour only indicates the PH pf the solution. Orange, green, purple, blue....doesn't matter.

If your water PH is too alkaline, the mix will usually turn orange, which indicates a high PH. This will still yield some results. It isn't a total waste. My mix used to turn orange and I was happy with the results.

Citric acid will lower the PH of the mix and turn the water more blue/green. I have noticed a difference in colour, but not drastically.

As has been mentioned in this thread, your grass can only get so green. There is a max colour density you can reach.


----------



## corneliani

As I've come to understand from this forum and other outside sources, the citric acid is mainly used as a chelation agent in this process. Chelation binds the iron mineral from reacting once in solution & keeps it from oxidizing into the ferric form, keeping it in a plant-available form.

The lowered pH is not the intended result as much as the chelation of the iron is. This is also why chelated iron does not stain (as much?) as the non-chelated version as it can not immediately react with the calcium ions in concrete or paint, etc.

The color itself is more of a visual clue of whether oxidation occurred (the brownish hue) and gives us an idea of how much foliar uptake can be expected. Your final solution color can depend on the type of ferrous sulfate used (heptahydrate has a greenish-blue tint, for ex) which is a factor of which minerals are used in your particular ferrous sulfate product.


----------



## Zip-a-Dee-Zee

I'm certainly no expert on foliar iron applications but I agree with @Harts that the color of the solution isn't all that important. After I adjust the water pH with CA, the solution always turns yellow when I add FS:



FWIW I can tell that the leaves are absorbing FAS because I'll notice black spots on the blades if the grass isn't irrigated after applying it. The response isn't immediate though and I typically won't see darkening until a few days afterwards. So far I've only applied the solution to NoMix and I can tell that how dark the lawn gets largely depends on what cultivars are absorbing it. The areas with mostly bluegrass/ryegrass seem to like it better than the patches of fine fescue which stay bright green.


----------



## Trent161

@Zip-a-Dee-Zee Wouldn't you be targeting a neutral PH? Maybe I am wrong but isn't a 2.7 Acidic? (Too much CA?)

@Dkrem Not staining the concrete is the direction I am trying to go in. I haven't tried it/ sprayed any yet because of trying to understand if it is possible to do without staining concrete.


----------



## Harts

Trent161 said:


> @Zip-a-Dee-Zee Wouldn't you be targeting a neutral PH? Maybe I am wrong but isn't a 2.7 Acidic? (Too much CA?)
> 
> @Dkrem Not staining the concrete is the direction I am trying to go in. I haven't tried it/ sprayed any yet because of trying to understand if it is possible to do without staining concrete.


I haven't any issues with FAS staining concrete with a neutral PH. For that matter, before I started using CA, my PH was over 8 and it never stained my concrete. I also wasn't spraying directing onto concrete. A little overspray, in my experience, didn't cause any staining.


----------



## davegravy

Harts said:


> Trent161 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Zip-a-Dee-Zee Wouldn't you be targeting a neutral PH? Maybe I am wrong but isn't a 2.7 Acidic? (Too much CA?)
> 
> @Dkrem Not staining the concrete is the direction I am trying to go in. I haven't tried it/ sprayed any yet because of trying to understand if it is possible to do without staining concrete.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't any issues with FAS staining concrete with a neutral PH. For that matter, before I started using CA, my PH was over 8 and it never stained my concrete. I also wasn't spraying directing onto concrete. A little overspray, in my experience, didn't cause any staining.
Click to expand...

I had a bit of staining but nothing long lasting. The sun bleached it out after a week or two.


----------



## Zip-a-Dee-Zee

Trent161 said:


> @Zip-a-Dee-Zee Wouldn't you be targeting a neutral PH? Maybe I am wrong but isn't a 2.7 Acidic? (Too much CA?)


@Trent161 You want the pH to be acidic in order for the CA to chelate the iron.


----------



## gwolf64

Success!!!! My water was a 7ph. Added CA until I got to around 5ph. I was surprised on how little it takes.... final ph was 4.5. I then added my iron to the water. It ended as a greenish color. It also worked well.


----------



## Jagermeister

Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.


----------



## gwolf64

I get my Citric acid from Whole Foods.


----------



## kdizzlefoshizle

So followed the cool season ratio for my lawn in Missouri (6a) with great success!

Got my ryobi sprayer calibrated for 1gal/1000sqft and went to town. After 48hrs it was deep green with no signs of blackening.

Think I paid $34 total for 5lbs of each which covers my yard 12-15 times.

Before





After

]


----------



## Jagermeister

Looking good! Building up my inventory now. Struggled to find AMS so just went ahead and bought Greenway Biotech from Amazon.


----------



## Avid123

This may have been asked already on the thread...or might be a totally absurd noob question.. but if I can't find Ammonium Sulfate - could I use urea instead to mix with the iron as a booster ?


----------



## Never Winter Farms

Ewing Irrigation has it for $20.87.





Jagermeister said:


> Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.


----------



## Theycallmemrr

Jagermeister said:


> Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.


@Jagermeister 
I go to turfnology in Watkinsville.


----------



## cubsfan24

Never Winter Farms said:


> Ewing Irrigation has it for $20.87.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.
Click to expand...

I cannot find it either :/


----------



## Dkrem

cubsfan24 said:


> I cannot find it either :/


No luck just searching for 21-0-0 fertilizer? it will be Ammonium sulfate.


----------



## frekwentflier

I know if you apply to much iron to a lawn, it will turn black. Is this harmful to the grass, or is it just ugly? Does the black color last until it's mowed off, or does it gradually go away without mowing?

I ask because I'm thinking about doing an experiment to push as much FAS as my lawn can possibly handle. I don't mind having it black for a while, but I don't want to do permanent harm.


----------



## g-man

It could kill it. I would advise against it.


----------



## Harts

^ +1.

More is not always better. There is a limit as to how much darker your grass can get.


----------



## StuMPie82

cubsfan24 said:


> I cannot find it either :/


Try to find *N-Rich* or *Solugreen* by Lesco brand or APF brand. They both sell both.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

Did we get a conclusion on if the PH of the water used to make the solution also had an significant impact of the absorption efficiency for the plant ? (Ie: should we aim for a solution with a ph of ~6 / avoid high ph)


----------



## SodFace

How many of you DON'T water in FAS after applying? I have been applying before a 'guaranteed' rain or when I don't mind lugging the hoses around in the morning. But I definitely havent been doing it on a regular schedule due to this.


----------



## corneliani

I don't think I ever have, at least not on purpose. Sometimes the irrigation just happens to be scheduled for the next morning but honestly, never on purpose. Mind you, I do push my limits and get some dark turf every now and then but nothing egregious. 
EDIT: Oh, and to top this off, I spray at approx a half-gallon/1000 of carrier. :dunno: Works for me.


----------



## jeffjunstrom

Does anyone use Greenway Biotech and have issues with residual particles? I put down my ~5th iron app last night using this product (my first FAS product, so I have no basis for comparison), and I've noticed sediment building in the bottom of my sprayer. I'm not sure if it's the product, my sprayer (105ex), or some combination.


----------



## g-man

Likely neither. Most likely it is calcium carbonate precipitation from your water source. Did you use ams?


----------



## jeffjunstrom

No, just the Greenway granules, liquid PGR (Primo MAXX), and water. It's not a significant amount of sediment, but the appearance (almost like tiny rust particles) had me thinking it was just particles from the iron product that didn't properly dissolve.


----------



## corneliani

Pascal-lawn said:


> Did we get a conclusion on if the PH of the water used to make the solution also had an significant impact of the absorption efficiency for the plant ? (Ie: should we aim for a solution with a ph of ~6 / avoid high ph)


I'm not sure if the pH itself will help the absorption, I've never understood that to be the case. The chelation of the iron by the CA is what will help in this regard.


----------



## g-man

jeffjunstrom said:


> No, just the Greenway granules, liquid PGR (Primo MAXX), and water. It's not a significant amount of sediment, but the appearance (almost like tiny rust particles) had me thinking it was just particles from the iron product that didn't properly dissolve.


rust particle = ferric oxide = not available iron to the plant. I'm not sure if you are going to see an effect from your application.


----------



## jeffjunstrom

g-man said:


> jeffjunstrom said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, just the Greenway granules, liquid PGR (Primo MAXX), and water. It's not a significant amount of sediment, but the appearance (almost like tiny rust particles) had me thinking it was just particles from the iron product that didn't properly dissolve.
> 
> 
> 
> rust particle = ferric oxide = not available iron to the plant. I'm not sure if you are going to see an effect from your application.
Click to expand...

Won't see any effect at all, even from the product that did dissolve and made its way to the plant? I'm not certain the particles are rust, also. Either way, I'm probably going to be looking for another product, I haven't been happy with this FAS from Greenway for a couple reasons.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

corneliani said:


> The chelation of the iron by the CA is what will help in this regard.


Ok thanks. Is there a rule of thumb ratio regarding the citric acid to aim in the solution ? (ie 10% of the ferrous sulphate amount for example)


----------



## Jagermeister

Never Winter Farms said:


> Ewing Irrigation has it for $20.87.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.
Click to expand...

@Never Winter Farms I went to the Ewing store in Alpharetta and the guy looked at me like I was crazy, never heard of AMS. I then called the Woodstock store and he said they don't carry Best products here or AMS (more West Coast). Did you actually buy that bag here?


----------



## corneliani

Pascal-lawn said:


> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> 
> The chelation of the iron by the CA is what will help in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok thanks. Is there a rule of thumb ratio regarding the citric acid to aim in the solution ? (ie 10% of the ferrous sulphate amount for example)
Click to expand...

Go back to around page 14, there's some good conversation on this. Here's greendoc's post from that page:



Greendoc said:


> When I used to use FS as my Iron source it was applied at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft with 4 oz Citric Acid. order of mixing was very important. Citric acid went into water first. FS next. It is possible to make a concentrate with those proportions being aware that limit of FS solubility in water is 2 lb per gallon at temperatures above 70. However, remember the Citric Acid you will have in solution with it and that probably decreases to only 1 lb per gallon. These days, I prefer to use the Citric Acid to address the reason why the lawn needs so much Iron applied in the first place. Soil pH.


If you run these rates you'll quickly realize the CA is more expensive than the Iron itself and it may not even be that feasible considering it's a weak chelating agent to start. But I don't think FAS is meant to be a fully-chelated iron option. It's a cheap way of throwing some iron down and whatever sticks sticks and whatever doesn't, oh well, it costs $0.025/ounce! (as opposed to $0.17/ounce for CA, as I buy it). At least that's how I view it, and why I throw it down every chance I get.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

@corneliani ok thanks for the reference and for your time. Makes sense the way you present it. I'll have a read through the discussion with doc for sure. Cheers !


----------



## Jagermeister

corneliani said:


> As I've come to understand from this forum and other outside sources, the citric acid is mainly used as a chelation agent in this process. Chelation binds the iron mineral from reacting once in solution & keeps it from oxidizing into the ferric form, keeping it in a plant-available form.
> 
> The lowered pH is not the intended result as much as the chelation of the iron is. This is also why chelated iron does not stain (as much?) as the non-chelated version as it can not immediately react with the calcium ions in concrete or paint, etc.
> 
> The color itself is more of a visual clue of whether oxidation occurred (the brownish hue) and gives us an idea of how much foliar uptake can be expected. Your final solution color can depend on the type of ferrous sulfate used (heptahydrate has a greenish-blue tint, for ex) which is a factor of which minerals are used in your particular ferrous sulfate product.


@corneliani What colors are you achieving? I made up my first mix and it was orange (didn't add CA) but pH still showed low ~4.5 due to AMS (but did it in 1/3 gallon). I made up a second batch using 1 gallon and added CA after AMS and pH was super low. I slowly added the iron (FS heptahydrate) in and only achieved mainly a green color maybe slightly yellow (no blue). Is green good enough?

My plan is to create a concentrate in a nurse tank and dilute in my tank to save time.


----------



## Never Winter Farms

I bought it at the Suwannee store.


----------



## Jagermeister

Never Winter Farms said:


> I bought it at the Suwannee store.


Ugh, that is frustrating! I will have to check that out in future.


----------



## mdalby

Is it OK, or even preferred, to cut the grass just before applying FAS?

How many hours should I leave on before irrigation?

Thank you!


----------



## corneliani

Jagermeister said:


> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I've come to understand from this forum and other outside sources, the citric acid is mainly used as a chelation agent in this process. Chelation binds the iron mineral from reacting once in solution & keeps it from oxidizing into the ferric form, keeping it in a plant-available form.
> 
> The lowered pH is not the intended result as much as the chelation of the iron is. This is also why chelated iron does not stain (as much?) as the non-chelated version as it can not immediately react with the calcium ions in concrete or paint, etc.
> 
> The color itself is more of a visual clue of whether oxidation occurred (the brownish hue) and gives us an idea of how much foliar uptake can be expected. Your final solution color can depend on the type of ferrous sulfate used (heptahydrate has a greenish-blue tint, for ex) which is a factor of which minerals are used in your particular ferrous sulfate product.
> 
> 
> 
> @corneliani What colors are you achieving? I made up my first mix and it was orange (didn't add CA) but pH still showed low ~4.5 due to AMS (but did it in 1/3 gallon). I made up a second batch using 1 gallon and added CA after AMS and pH was super low. I slowly added the iron (FS heptahydrate) in and only achieved mainly a green color maybe slightly yellow (no blue). Is green good enough?
> 
> My plan is to create a concentrate in a nurse tank and dilute in my tank to save time.
Click to expand...

I had meant to upload this picture for you and just ran across it again & remembered this thread. I started with tap water at pH 7.5, and added 1oz CA in a quart of water on the right (or 1oz/gal) and half of that of Ferrous Sulfate. On the left I only added the 2oz/gal equivalent of FS. These were my results. I will add that the last time I attempted to record my tap pH it was coming in at 8+, which makes me think it varies depending on the city water authorities' additives (??). That time my outcome was a brown mess. This time it's green, even w/o the CA. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Interesting to see that adding the FS also lowered the pH of the tap water ... unless I contaminated something along the way (?).


----------



## LeeB

corneliani said:


> Interesting to see that adding the FS also lowered the pH of the tap water ... unless I contaminated something along the way (?).


Iron ions form acidic complexes with water, so the pH drop is expected, think of iron ions as being an acid. You can clearly see the citric acid has increased the solubility of the iron on the right from the chelation effect. The color is going to vary somewhat depending on the water chemistry and the concentration you're using. You might notice the solution gradually turning more orange over time especially at the top, which would be the iron(II) being oxidized to iron(III) from oxygen in the air. That's not ideal because the iron(III) is less soluble and you will have more trouble spraying it. Try to spray while it's still green before it gets too orange. Solution pH at 2 or less will give you the most solubility.

You could let those sit for a day or two and see what happens to them. Or keep adding more citric acid and see that effect.


----------



## Dkrem

Ammonium sulfate is an acidifier by itself. which is why it should go into the water first, before the Ferrous sulfate.


----------



## itslogz

Anyone around the raleigh area, green resource in garner has the ferrous sulfate for 25$ 50lb bag

They also have spray grade AMS for about the same price


----------



## Avid123

Apologies if I missed this somewhere but is there a cut off temperature high during summer when it might be better to hold off on the FAS - e.g. if temps are in the high 80s?

Also does grass need to be fully dry before application - I.e. if it rained in the morning and turf is moist is it better to wait a day or two ?


----------



## drcolossus11

I would avoid spraying when temps are above 80. Wait until evening when the temps are lower.

I don't think you will get as much foliar absorption if the grass is wet, but I'm new to FAS.


----------



## Adrian82

Jagermeister said:


> Never Winter Farms said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ewing Irrigation has it for $20.87.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone in the Atlanta area been able to find a local supply of ammonium sulfate and citric acid? I have been able to find ferrous sulfate and SOP at SiteOne but no one seems to have AMS.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @Never Winter Farms I went to the Ewing store in Alpharetta and the guy looked at me like I was crazy, never heard of AMS. I then called the Woodstock store and he said they don't carry Best products here or AMS (more West Coast). Did you actually buy that bag here?
Click to expand...

No luck buying a bulk bag so I purchase the 4 pound bags from ACE Hardware stores.
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/gardening/plant-food/7298995


----------



## drcolossus11

Would it be possible to pre-mix an FAS concentrate? Or would it not be worth the effort?


----------



## Trent161

drcolossus11 said:


> Would it be possible to pre-mix an FAS concentrate? Or would it not be worth the effort?


I have the same question. And if so how long is the shelf life?


----------



## Jagermeister

Trent161 said:


> drcolossus11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to pre-mix an FAS concentrate? Or would it not be worth the effort?
> 
> 
> 
> I have the same question. And if so how long is the shelf life?
Click to expand...

In my opinion, no. I have to mix my solution in hot water so that the iron dissolves and think if it cools down, it would come out of solution. Also, I would think it would increase the probability of oxidizing the iron (turning orange) which would then prevent the turf from absorbing it.


----------



## Trent161

Jagermeister said:


> Trent161 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> drcolossus11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be possible to pre-mix an FAS concentrate? Or would it not be worth the effort?
> 
> 
> 
> I have the same question. And if so how long is the shelf life?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In my opinion, no. I have to mix my solution in hot water so that the iron dissolves and think if it cools down, it would come out of solution. Also, I would think it would increase the probability of oxidizing the iron (turning orange) which would then prevent the turf from absorbing it.
Click to expand...

@Jagermeister That makes sense to me. Thanks for replying. I sprayed FAS for the first time last week and all-in-all it went pretty well. I had some bronzing in the front yard but nothing terrible and it is certainly a darker green now.


----------



## Jagermeister

drcolossus11 said:


> I would avoid spraying when temps are above 80. Wait until evening when the temps are lower.
> 
> I don't think you will get as much foliar absorption if the grass is wet, but I'm new to FAS.


I have been spraying FAS + Fert all summer in the evening (even when still above 80) and have had no problems. I wouldn't go too heavy on the Fert for each app, though.


----------



## Jagermeister

corneliani said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I've come to understand from this forum and other outside sources, the citric acid is mainly used as a chelation agent in this process. Chelation binds the iron mineral from reacting once in solution & keeps it from oxidizing into the ferric form, keeping it in a plant-available form.
> 
> The lowered pH is not the intended result as much as the chelation of the iron is. This is also why chelated iron does not stain (as much?) as the non-chelated version as it can not immediately react with the calcium ions in concrete or paint, etc.
> 
> The color itself is more of a visual clue of whether oxidation occurred (the brownish hue) and gives us an idea of how much foliar uptake can be expected. Your final solution color can depend on the type of ferrous sulfate used (heptahydrate has a greenish-blue tint, for ex) which is a factor of which minerals are used in your particular ferrous sulfate product.
> 
> 
> 
> @corneliani What colors are you achieving? I made up my first mix and it was orange (didn't add CA) but pH still showed low ~4.5 due to AMS (but did it in 1/3 gallon). I made up a second batch using 1 gallon and added CA after AMS and pH was super low. I slowly added the iron (FS heptahydrate) in and only achieved mainly a green color maybe slightly yellow (no blue). Is green good enough?
> 
> My plan is to create a concentrate in a nurse tank and dilute in my tank to save time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I had meant to upload this picture for you and just ran across it again & remembered this thread. I started with tap water at pH 7.5, and added 1oz CA in a quart of water on the right (or 1oz/gal) and half of that of Ferrous Sulfate. On the left I only added the 2oz/gal equivalent of FS. These were my results. I will add that the last time I attempted to record my tap pH it was coming in at 8+, which makes me think it varies depending on the city water authorities' additives (??). That time my outcome was a brown mess. This time it's green, even w/o the CA. 🤷🏻‍♂️
> 
> Interesting to see that adding the FS also lowered the pH of the tap water ... unless I contaminated something along the way (?).
Click to expand...

@corneliani Thanks. I get that same color! I also have the same experience with pH going lower and lower as I add CA, AMS, and then FE. I go ahead and add the CA for safe measure (just a scoop) and it should also help with the chelation effect.


----------



## Jagermeister

Here is what I am doing to create my FAS concentrate for 14M sq ft. I have been able to mix CA, AMS, and FE in 3 gallons of hot water. I have a 10 gallon spray tank to I load 2 gallons of concentrate for my front and side lawn and use the rest for the back. As you can see, I am getting a green color.


----------



## downriverlawn

I'm sure this was asked before, but couldn't find it. Could I mix tenacity/triclopyr with FAS?


----------



## Jagermeister

I don't see why not. Usually good to mix iron in with your herbicides.


----------



## wiseowl

gwolf64 said:


> Not a bad price! Much better than Amazon or eBay. I picked up a bag today!


Either you do millions of dollars or they upcharge in California for us GC's 😂😂😂


----------



## Robs92k

I hope this isn't off topic as I know the primary use here is for greening. Interesting enough I have a moss/ algae problem and was searching for solutions when I came across this report from UG:

https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=C823&title=Controlling%20Moss%20and%20Algae%20in%20Turf



Turns out they recommend FAS as a remedy for both algae and moss(though they didn't do well specifying amt).

I was about to do a broadcast app of chlorothalonil, but thought it might stress the lawn and technically not suppose to use residentially (though I would plan to treat only my other plants…outside…on the lawn…with my broadcast sprayer…).

This sounds too good to be true, but going to try this before chlorothalonil.

@ken-n-nancy follow up to other thread.

@g-man not sure if this should be on the FAS thread or fungicides.


----------



## RBall

I'm curious the schedule everyone applies this mix at. I've searched and could only find references to people apply it when the apply PGR or before a holiday. Any other schedules or ideas? Trying to map out next year already, ha!


----------



## Jagermeister

I apply the FAS for almost every foliar app I do....TNex, fert, herbicide, etc. approximately every two weeks. I definitely have the greenest grass on the block.


----------



## Trent161

@Jagermeister Are you applying at the same rate every time? If so what rate are you applying at? I am still working on dialing my rate in.


----------



## RBall

@Jagermeister Are you doing no Nitrogen and just FAS? Is that "common" amongst users here?


----------



## Jagermeister

@Trent161 Yes, applying per MQ's recommended rates for bermuda in the first post of this thread.

@RBall I don't just spray the FAS. I normally combine it when I am spraying herbicides and TNex. I spray TNex with my fert apps every couple of weeks. I have only done a couple broadcast herbicide apps this year - Celsius, quinclorac, certainty, etc.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

Gents,

Assuming one would like to add the FS dose into one of his weekly liquid fall spoon feeding of N (0.15-0.20 # of N) would that be ok or is it better to wait and do a separate application ? Apologies in advance if this has been answered already.

Edit : I see a bunch of folks combining FAS with PGR and herbicide but i'm not sure whats the impact of combining FS with a "high" amount of N versus the recommended dose in the O.P.


----------



## stevehollx

If you tank mix iron and urea, do you still need to add AMS or does the urea do the same thing to allow for iron to be taken in by the plant?


----------



## Jagermeister

@Pascal-lawn I have been combining FAS with my fert and PGR apps all summer and highly recommend this as best practice. Try and combine as many applications into one spray (e.g. foliar apps, separate apps that are soil applied). I usually spray in the evening and let it absorb into the plant and then water in the morning. You have to be careful with amounts and overlaps so you don't burn the grass.

@stevehollx Yes, you still need a small amount of AMS to get that boost from the FE. There were responses to this way back on the first couple of pages of this topic.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

@Jagermeister thx man. I took a chance and combined the FS with 0.2# of N and so far the color seems pretty good. I did spray late in the evening (~5pm) and there was a light rain the next day. To your knowledge, is there a softcap on how many FAS application you should do in a month for cool season grass assuming air temp isnt crazy high? (Ie: once every 2 weeks, etc).


----------



## Jagermeister

@Pascal-lawn I don't believe there is an issue with apply every week (@Mightyquinn ?). I tend to include the FAS on my bi-weekly TNex and N treatments.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I'm not a cool season guy so I can't answer that question confidently but I would think applying it in the evening and watering it in the next morning would be good insurance.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

@Jagermeister & @Mightyquinn thank you both for your time ! Next season I'll start with once every week and space it out to bi-weekly depending on the grass response.


----------



## Harts

Pascal-lawn said:


> @Jagermeister & @Mightyquinn thank you both for your time ! Next season I'll start with once every week and space it out to bi-weekly depending on the grass response.


I have always included FAS with urea and PGR and sprayed every 3-4 weeks. I never felt the need to do weekly iron apps - even when I only had 2,500 square feet.


----------



## Pascal-lawn

Harts said:


> I never felt the need to do weekly iron apps


Thanks for your feedback Harts. Perhaps weekly app are overkill. Out of curiosity, id assume color response of your turf drove how frequently you decided to apply FAS ?


----------



## Harts

@Pascal-lawn to a point. I also didn't want to or feel the need to spray every week. There came a point in time for me where I decided how much I was willing to invest - time and money. That point may b different for you.

Your grass can only get so dark, that there's a point where you're just wasting product.

If you want, spray every 2 to 3 weeks for a bit and then try going every week for a month and ee what kind of repsonse you get.

I don't know if there's a "limit" you can reach where you are harming the grass.


----------



## lawndog

What are you guys using for iron now that it's almost impossible to get feature?


----------



## Jagermeister

I have been mixing my own FAS as per MQ's recipe. I was able to find the ferrous heptahydrate and AMS. I believe MQ is using Main Event.


----------



## rmtn2048

we need to edit the description to include a better link to Iron Sulfate: https://www.amazon.com/Ferrous-Sulfate-Heptahydrate-Greenway-Biotech/dp/B00KJL5ZL4 the other is $74


----------



## Ware

rmtn2048 said:


> we need to edit the description to include a better link to Iron Sulfate: https://www.amazon.com/Ferrous-Sulfate-Heptahydrate-Greenway-Biotech/dp/B00KJL5ZL4 the other is $74


The link in the OP is for a 25lb bag. That 5lb bag is close to double the cost per pound. A pound is enough for about 4k square feet - so for your 6k lawn you would only get about 3.3 apps out of the 5lb bag.


----------



## Frankzzz

What about this?

Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate
https://www.amazon.com/Ferrous-Sulfate-Heptahydrate-FeSO47H2O-Soluble/dp/B00L9RVYJO
20lbs for $25 + $15.50 shipping, so $40.50 = $2.02/lb
vs the OP $77 for 25lbs = $3.08/lb

and Ammonium Sulfate
https://www.amazon.com/Ammonium-Sulfate-NH4-2SO4-Pounds/dp/B007ODQP32
20lbs for $26 + $15.50 shipping, = $41.50 = $2.08/lb
vs OP $62 for 25lbs = $2.48/lb


----------



## Ware

Frankzzz said:


> What about this?
> 
> Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate
> https://www.amazon.com/Ferrous-Sulfate-Heptahydrate-FeSO47H2O-Soluble/dp/B00L9RVYJO
> 20lbs for $25 + $15.50 shipping, so $40.50 = $2.02/lb
> vs the OP $77 for 25lbs = $3.08/lb
> 
> and Ammonium Sulfate
> https://www.amazon.com/Ammonium-Sulfate-NH4-2SO4-Pounds/dp/B007ODQP32
> 20lbs for $26 + $15.50 shipping, = $41.50 = $2.08/lb
> vs OP $62 for 25lbs = $2.48/lb


Yep, keep in mind the OP was made in 2017 and Amazon prices/sellers change all the time. Always do your diligence. :thumbup:


----------



## rmtn2048

oh duh, good catch, I just saw the lower price and thought it was cheaper, definitely not apples to apples.


----------



## Frankzzz

I know some people have replaced FAS with things like Feature/Main Event, to get chelated iron and to get a few micros, but has anyone ever tried to "roll your own" with micros by adding them individually to the DIY FAS?
Boron, copper, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, zinc?
Or is it not worth the effort or cost?


----------



## stevehollx

If the Ferrous Sulfate is left open in a humid southeast climate for a whole summer in the garage, could oxidizing reduce the efficacy of it? Or can it oxidize, if it is chelated?

The impact of FAS on my lawn this fall seems less, and wondering if oxidization is at play here or if it is just in my head.


----------



## Mightyquinn

stevehollx said:


> If the Ferrous Sulfate is left open in a humid southeast climate for a whole summer in the garage, could oxidizing reduce the efficacy of it? Or can it oxidize, if it is chelated?
> 
> The impact of FAS on my lawn this fall seems less, and wondering if oxidization is at play here or if it is just in my head.


I guess that would be possible but why would you leave it open in a non climate controlled space? Or was it an accident? I always use to keep mine in a sealed bucket or ziploc bags. I've also noticed that the more you use Iron on your lawn the less of a visual effect it will have since it isn't lacking it as much and you look at your lawn everyday.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Frankzzz said:


> I know some people have replaced FAS with things like Feature/Main Event, to get chelated iron and to get a few micros, but has anyone ever tried to "roll your own" with micros by adding them individually to the DIY FAS?
> Boron, copper, magnesium, manganese, molybdenum, zinc?
> Or is it not worth the effort or cost?


You technically could do that but unless you know exactly how much to add for each minor element you might that your soil is short on you may create more problems then you solve. The minors in Main Event/Feature are very small so adding them over time will do very little harm. Boron is the one that you need to really be aware of since a little bit of that goes a long way and having too much in your soil can actually harm it.


----------



## Dhosebag

I have PRG lawn. And located in Colorado. Looking for recommendation on how early to start applying FAS? Any cool season folks have any insight as to when you start your first app in the spring?


----------



## corneliani

I'm actually getting ready to do my first FAS app on my TTTF this evening. IMO it's an ideal time to give the turf some pop coming out of winter, if weather/irrigation permit.


----------



## shifco

I've read quite a bit of this thread but am a little confused.
For Cool Season, the mixture is: 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.4oz of Fe) AND 1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate per K.
Multiple folks stated above is by weight.
1.7oz of AMS amounts to 0.106 LB of dry weighted AMS per K. 
AMS is 21-0-0, so 21% nitrogen
Does this mean foliar wise, the recommended mixture above would apply 0.022313 LB N per K? (0.106 x 21%)

Per other threads, and I think my own experience, I think foliar wise you can safely apply up to .25 LB N per K.
What am I missing??

To further illustrate, would the mixture below BURN THE HELL OUT OF THE LAWN ???? :shock: :shock: 
2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.4oz of Fe) AND 1 POUND AMS (0.21 of N) of Ammonium Sulfate per K :shock: :shock:

Is the recommended mixture above truly applying:
For Cool Season, the mixture is: 2.0 oz of Ferrous Sulfate (0.4oz of Fe) AND 1.7 oz of Ammonium Sulfate (0.022313 of N) per K.

What am I missing??


----------



## g-man

The recommendation is to do FAS. You are trying to do FAS and also do foliar N. The N in FAS is not to feed the lawn, but it helps keep the iron available and helps to get it inside the leaf.


----------



## shifco

g-man said:


> The recommendation is to do FAS. You are trying to do FAS and also do foliar N. The N in FAS is not to feed the lawn, but it helps keep the iron available and helps to get it inside the leaf.


Appreciate the quick reply g-man. So the recommended rate is just an insanely small touch of N to help assist.
If it is time for a TRUE FEED, I'm thinking my 1 POUND (0.21 of N) of Ammonium Sulfate per K would be fine.

Doing PGR and the above this year, so just wanted to get clarification. Thanks again


----------



## TheZMan

Going to give this a shot as my grass is just getting going with the weather.

Staining of walkways and driveways is only a concern during the application process? It won't run off with the irrigation the next morning and be a problem? Have a slope spot front yard and water runs downhill.


----------



## TheZMan

I got a bag off Amazon from the link in the beginning. It's greenway biotech. The bag says Ferrous Sulfate. It doesn't say Hepatahydrate. Same thing or no? Seller advertised as Hepatahydrate.


----------



## San

TheZMan said:


> I got a bag off Amazon from the link in the beginning. It's greenway biotech. The bag says Ferrous Sulfate. It doesn't say Hepatahydrate. Same thing or no? Seller advertised as Hepatahydrate.


Heptahydrate just means it's a compound with seven water molecules attached. The reason they sell this for fertilizer is because it dissolve more easily in water at lower temperature. The one you got is sold as water soluble, so you are good regardless. But outside the extra science lesson, the one you got is a heptahydrate form.


----------



## john5246

TheZMan said:


> I got a bag off Amazon from the link in the beginning. It's greenway biotech. The bag says Ferrous Sulfate. It doesn't say Hepatahydrate. Same thing or no? Seller advertised as Hepatahydrate.


can you put a link to that? I can't seem to find it. Based on the 5lb bag price I would imagine the 25lb bag is 1000 bucks?


----------



## corneliani

john5246 said:


> TheZMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got a bag off Amazon from the link in the beginning. It's greenway biotech. The bag says Ferrous Sulfate. It doesn't say Hepatahydrate. Same thing or no? Seller advertised as Hepatahydrate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> can you put a link to that? I can't seem to find it. Based on the 5lb bag price I would imagine the 25lb bag is 1000 bucks?
Click to expand...

Or buy from your local turf supplier. It may not be as 'refined' of a grade but you don't need it to be for turf. Some of these products are meant for hydroponics and other very sensitive applications & they don't require as much product, so that 5# goes a long way. 
Heres SiteOne's Ferrous Sulfate, $30/50#bag (with an account).


----------



## TheZMan

I had a question regarding the stability of the FAS in alkaline water. I read in detail a few pages back guys stating their mix turns orange (oxidizes), and some said their results weren't great. My municipality supplies water around a pH of 9.0 (crazy)

I picked up a pH meter on Amazon and want to solve this issue for myself or cool season.

Plan is 1 gallon water per 1K sq ft:
2oz Ferrous Sulfate
1.7 oz AMS

I want to use Citric Acid but since it's so acidic it scares me. Can I get some guidance on a target water pH that would be safe for an overnight application of FAS + CA?

Order of mixing would be: Water, AMS, CA, Fe.

I'm not sure if I need to go this extreme but I know some guys on here were spraying really nice blue/green stuff and I don't want to haphazardly add too much acid to my water.


----------



## g-man

I do water, ca, ams and fs at the end. For how much ca, use your pH meter. The goal is to have it between 5 and 7 ph.


----------



## San

I would keep it under 6pH, as above that citric acid won't be a stable chelator.

However if you mix it water, ca, ams, and measure around 7 with the ca, the ams will most likely take it down low enough to keep it under 6. So it depends on when you measure.

For reference this dates back to an old patent from 1955, the explanation and used these ratios:

Together with ferrous sulfate, we use citric acid principally by reason of its apparent eifectiveness as a chelating compound for solubilized iron, and for the further benefit of lowering to a desirable level the pH of high alkaline soils. When used even in relatively small proice portions, citric acid chelates the iron so effectively that when the combination ofmaterials is dissolved andintroduced to the soil, the iron is retained by the chelation for assimilation by the plants over a period of time well beyond that at which the iron could remain so available in the absence of the citric acid.
The third essential ingredient of the present composition is ammonium sulfate, which is used for the dual purposes of increasing the chelation effect of the citric acid, as by the formation of a complex of the salts having. chelative relation to iron, and for the further purpose of making available nitrogen which becomes assimilable by the plant by virtue of its acceptance of the iron.

Ratios:

1. A soil conditioning material consisting essentially of ammonium sulfate, ferrous sulfate and citric acid in the proportions of about 1 weight part of ammonium sulfate, from 2 to 7 parts of ferrous sulfate and from 0.12 to 0.8 part of citric acid, iron contained in said ferrous sulfate being chelated by the citric acid and retained as unprecipitated iron in aqueous solutions of said material.
2. A soil conditioning material consisting essentially of ammonium sulfate, ferrous sulfate and citric acid in the proportions of about 4.6 weight parts of ammonium sulfate, 22.75 parts of ferrous sulfate and 1 part of citric acid, iron contained in said ferrous sulfate being chelated by the citric acid and retained as unprecipitated iron in aqueous solutions of said material.

Source: https://patents.google.com/patent/US2813014A/en


----------



## mamoore9

Is it possible to lessen the amount of water in the dilution mixture? I have a large lawn and having to refill a 4gal sprayer 4 times for 16k+ sqft sounds annoying.


----------



## Dkrem

I use about a cup of citric acid per 20 gallon load in my sprayer to acidify my high pH Kentucky water. I've not measured the result pH, I just messed with 5gal test batches and scaled up when it stopped oxidizing. To that I add around 8 pounds of ammonium sulfate, and then 5-ish pounds of ferrous sulfate. I mix that all up, in order, in a 5gal bucket of hot water, then I decant it off the trash that doesn't dissolve and dilute it in the sprayer with straight hose water to final volume. I spray all that on ~3/4 acre.

EDIT: I mixed up and sprayed a batch last night, here's the concentrate as described above in my bucket:


----------



## CaffeinatedLawnCare

So I mixed up some FAS the other day (along with some PGR which turned the mixture orange /facepalm so I'm not sure if it stayed yellow/green after I dumped it into the full 2 gal tank).

Used the following rates per gallon of water:

1 tsp citric acid
1.7oz AMS
2oz FS

My initial water pH was a 7.6-7.8 (using pH strips that go from 6.2-9 - pool testing strips) and after adding the 1 tsp of citric it was definitely below the 6.2 (off the chart so hard to say what the actual pH was ...).

My question is, how much citric is actually needed? I saw a few different comments while reading through this entire thread and one suggested around 1:14 CA:FS and one suggested around 2:1 CA:FS ...

1:14 puts me at about the 1 tsp (which is what I tried because the other seemed so high at 4oz CA to 2oz FS?).

Which of these rates is correct?

Edit: Mixed the ingredients into a graduated bucket with 2 qts of water, then dumped that mixture into the other 1.5gal so 2gal total mixture at the end.

Image of the mixture with the 1 tsp rate of CA (1:14 CA:FS ratio):


----------



## grumpsterfire

Until today I'd just happily been spraying the orange/brown stuff.

The internet says rainwater is slightly acidic so I filled two 5 gal buckets of water from the downspout (very slight brown tinge) rather than from the tap for today's application. The result after adding AS then FS was no discernable orange color. The mix was cloudy white or slightly tan/gray.

This could be an alternative to CA for keeping your FAS app from turning orange / brown in the bucket.


----------



## TampaBayFL

CaffeinatedLawnCare said:


> So I mixed up some FAS the other day (along with some PGR which turned the mixture orange /facepalm so I'm not sure if it stayed yellow/green after I dumped it into the full 2 gal tank).
> 
> Used the following rates per gallon of water:
> 
> 1 tsp citric acid
> 1.7oz AMS
> 2oz FS
> 
> My initial water pH was a 7.6-7.8 (using pH strips that go from 6.2-9 - pool testing strips) and after adding the 1 tsp of citric it was definitely below the 6.2 (off the chart so hard to say what the actual pH was ...).
> 
> My question is, how much citric is actually needed? I saw a few different comments while reading through this entire thread and one suggested around 1:14 CA:FS and one suggested around 2:1 CA:FS ...
> 
> 1:14 puts me at about the 1 tsp (which is what I tried because the other seemed so high at 4oz CA to 2oz FS?).
> 
> Which of these rates is correct?
> 
> Edit: Mixed the ingredients into a graduated bucket with 2 qts of water, then dumped that mixture into the other 1.5gal so 2gal total mixture at the end.
> 
> Image of the mixture with the 1 tsp rate of CA (1:14 CA:FS ratio):


I did something similar last week. I wimped out and used 2 gallons of hot water and 4 oz FS and ~4 oz AMS, plus 1/4 tsp of CA. The water stayed light green even though my starting pH was off the charts (something in the 8's). After the 1/4 tsp of CA is was too low of a pH for me to measure (below 6).

I sprayed this on some test areas and even a few days later there is no discernible color difference on Citra Blue or Bermuda. I sprayed one area in particular HEAVY and I could see some slight damage but nothing horrible.


----------



## TampaBayFL

Yesterday, I tried a different (even more gentle approach since I am being cautious) and over ~1750 sq ft of Citra Blue I used 0.6 oz (2 TBSP) FS, 0.6 oz (2 TBSP)AMS and 1 oz of liquid (palm) micros in 32 oz of sea kelp and sprayed it all through a hose end sprayer at a 2oz/gal rate. Well see if I notice anything with this concoction. I doubt it as its sooooo weak.

With my high pH, I dont believe the iron has much effect unless its foliarly applied. That said, I did burn the [email protected]$$ out of my Zoysia last year when I overapplied iron foliarly with not enough water as the carrier.


----------



## g-man

TampaBayFL said:


> Yesterday, I tried a different (even more gentle approach since I am being cautious) and over ~1750 sq ft of Citra Blue I used 0.6 oz (2 TBSP) FS, 0.6 oz (2 TBSP)AMS and 1 oz of liquid (palm) micros in 32 oz of sea kelp and sprayed it all through a hose end sprayer at a 2oz/gal rate. Well see if I notice anything with this concoction. I doubt it as its sooooo weak.
> 
> With my high pH, I dont believe the iron has much effect unless its foliarly applied. That said, I did burn the [email protected]$$ out of my Zoysia last year when I overapplied iron foliarly with not enough water as the carrier.


You can't do a foliar application with a hose end sprayer.


----------



## TampaBayFL

g-man said:


> TampaBayFL said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I tried a different (even more gentle approach since I am being cautious) and over ~1750 sq ft of Citra Blue I used 0.6 oz (2 TBSP) FS, 0.6 oz (2 TBSP)AMS and 1 oz of liquid (palm) micros in 32 oz of sea kelp and sprayed it all through a hose end sprayer at a 2oz/gal rate. Well see if I notice anything with this concoction. I doubt it as its sooooo weak.
> 
> With my high pH, I dont believe the iron has much effect unless its foliarly applied. That said, I did burn the [email protected]$$ out of my Zoysia last year when I overapplied iron foliarly with not enough water as the carrier.
> 
> 
> 
> You can't do a foliar application with a hose end sprayer.
Click to expand...

I should have been more clear that I definitely understood that. I implied I was being a mega wimp 🤪since I didn't want to burn anything, and my main reason for using the hose and sprayer was to put down the kelp. I just threw the other stuff in for yucks. The previous test I did which showed no effect, and even light damage in an area where I applied it super super heavy, leads me to believe things may already be as good as they can get.


----------



## CaffeinatedLawnCare

I didn't have any issues and it seemed to get pretty dark green (especially for my back lawn which is just a bunch of random grass types) so I know it is working. I got some better pH strips that read from 4.5-10 pH. I'll be able to check exactly how much CA it takes to get me below 5 pH.


----------



## Jonslawn

Just mixed up my FAS with a couple tsp of citric acid. I wanted to apply it when it was raining lightly as I was afraid the citric acid would burn my grass without watering in. Can I still apply in the rain an still get the dark green effect or no if it's not sitting on the blades long at all?


----------



## frekwentflier

Jonslawn said:


> Just mixed up my FAS with a couple tsp of citric acid. I wanted to apply it when it was raining lightly as I was afraid the citric acid would burn my grass without watering in. Can I still apply in the rain an still get the dark green effect or no if it's not sitting on the blades long at all?


I doubt this would work. I believe the best approach is to spray FAS on the day before, then water in the next morning.


----------



## Jagermeister

Jonslawn said:


> Just mixed up my FAS with a couple tsp of citric acid. I wanted to apply it when it was raining lightly as I was afraid the citric acid would burn my grass without watering in. Can I still apply in the rain an still get the dark green effect or no if it's not sitting on the blades long at all?


FAS should be foliar applied and allowed to be absorbed by the plant for 4 hours prior to watering in to get the best effect. I use FAS all the time along with a scoop of CA to drive pH down prior to mixing the iron in and haven't had any issues as long as you follow the recipe.


----------



## San

A scoop of CA also won't turn your water into a strong acid, your rain is likely more/just as acidic as your FAS solution.


----------



## TampaBayFL

TampaBayFL said:


> I did something similar last week. I wimped out and used 2 gallons of hot water and 4 oz FS and ~4 oz AMS, plus 1/4 tsp of CA. The water stayed light green even though my starting pH was off the charts (something in the 8's). After the 1/4 tsp of CA is was too low of a pH for me to measure (below 6).
> 
> I sprayed this on some test areas and even a few days later there is no discernible color difference on Citra Blue or Bermuda. I sprayed one area in particular HEAVY and I could see some slight damage but nothing horrible.


I gave another area another test with FAS. I used ~6 oz of FS and ~5 oz of AMS (with a small amount of CA to keep the water acidic and such that the mix stayed light green) for ~1500 ft area.

Most of this I used on a Bermuda area and a small amount on the Citra Blue. I purposely applied the FAS rather heavy on some of the Citra Blue to really push it to see if I could visually tell a difference.

I took a photo of a couple of representative blades.......,one treated heavily with FAS to the point of damage and the other untouched. There is a discernible difference when a photo is taken, but it's hard to see where I started and stopped the test in the yard in reality.

The Bermuda I did appears noticeably bluer in color.


----------



## TampaBayFL

Here's another photo of the same two grass blades, now I can't tell which is which, lol


----------



## TampaBayFL

Since my tests with FAS did not result in any discernible visual change...... Is it possible the grass blades are simply "iron saturated"? I assume something along these lines is going on as my recent soil tests from three different spots in the yard all show that the iron levels were very high already (8-9 lb/1k sq ft).


----------



## Avid123

I was planning to spray an AMS app (0.25N/K) and just wondering if I can just add 2oz iron to that? My main concern is that it im watering in the AMS right away to prevent burning (and because I actually need to do a soil app to start lowering ph and increase sulfur but dont have granular) will I lose the effect of iron by washing it out ?


----------



## corneliani

Avid123 said:


> I was planning to spray an AMS app (0.25N/K) and just wondering if I can just add 2oz iron to that? My main concern is that it im watering in the AMS right away to prevent burning (and because I actually need to do a soil app to start lowering ph and increase sulfur but dont have granular) will I lose the effect of iron by washing it out ?


No wrong way to doing this, but the 2oz rate of Ferrous Sulfate is really a foliar amount. I think that's where you get the biggest/best effect. Once you wash it into the soil ecosystem you're essentially leaving it to the plant to do its thing, whereas foliar apps can act as a bit of an IV into the plant


----------



## TheZMan

I conducted my experiment last night:

Municipal water supply pH 9.4

1 Gallon Water, 2oz Iron, 1.7 oz AMS, 1/8 tsp CA.
Mixing order: Water, AMS, CA, Fe

pH of water after AMS and CA, 5.8.

Color of mix was good. It wasn't as good as some member's deep green but definitely convinced it was not orange.

I sprayed and let it sit overnight - rinsed off with 0.10 inches of irrigation in AM.

Obviously left side of front yard received iron.


----------



## Dkrem

TheZMan said:


> Color of mix was good. It wasn't as good as some member's deep green but definitely convinced it was not orange.


Yeah, looks good. If you are comparing to my mix, mine was _really_ concentrated in the bucket in the photo, prior to dilution in the sprayer.


----------



## Bri831

I've skimmed through this topic and used the search but haven't found anything about using liquid ferrous sulfate like the one in the picture. Would this work instead of the soluble powder?


----------



## g-man

I would be concerned with the other ingredients:

Per an answer in Amazon:
1tsp. Contains 220 mg Ferrous Sulfate providing 44mg of elemental iron. Other ingredients are citric acid, FD and C yellow #6, flavor, sodium benzoste, sucrose and water.

It also seems extremely expensive. Your post remind me that I need to buy more, so i just ordered this:

Alpha Chemicals Ferrous Sulfate Heptahydrate - FeSO4*7H2O - 20% Iron - Very Soluble - 5 Pounds https://a.co/d/2mm4Jj3

The price per pound seems good.


----------



## g-man

I just noticed you have an acre. You don't want to buy this at Amazon for that amount of lawn.

Do you have a reinders close by? This 50lb bag is $20.

https://www.reinders.com/products/450-1399/


----------



## Bri831

Thanks. Right now I'm only treating the 2500sq ft in the front yard I renovated. I wasn't sure since this was in a liquid form if the rate would be lower around 1-2oz/1000. I ended up grabbing some 15-0-0+6% from tractor supply.


----------



## cnet24

So I have been spraying (what I think) to be a version of a FAS solution over the past two seasons- I am running out of my nitrogen source and decided to revisit this thread to decide what I will replace it with. After reading through 43 pages, I'm not sure which way is up, and looking for clarity on this situation:

I currently spray a mixture of Main Event Iron @ 2oz/1k (effectively my Ferrous Sulfate source) along with The Anderson's Humic Coated Urea @ 0.6lbs/1k (.264N/1K)(effectively my nitrogen source) mixed in with my bi-weekly PGR apps. I have never measured PH and my normal solution is a dark orange/black color (mostly due to the Humic).

I'm not sure why one would continue to utilize the FS in the OP when Main Event contains micros, chelated iron, won't stain concrete, etc? This makes me feel like I am missing something.

Should I replace the urea in this mixture with some form of AS + citric acid for better results? I've seen both yays/nays in this thread.

Or, should I continue with my current mixture of Main Event + Urea, and just lower water ph with citric acid?

Here is a recent soil sample, if this helps. You can see the effect of Main Event with the levels of micros & Fe in the yard:


----------



## TheZMan

@bri831 - definitely just stick to the recipe here to save money.

https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/6-7-Iron-Chelates.pdf#:~:text=If%C2%A0iron%C2%A0,or%C2%A0burn.

Read bullet points 1, 2 and 3 

I think g-man has brought this article up a bunch of times. I'll never spend money on an iron product thinking it will outperform regular iron when (due to my pH) foliar uptake is my goal.


----------



## JERSEY

Has anyone experimented with higher rates of AS when doing this?

My math says...2oz/gal of AS nets very light N..or 0.02lb N

I see guys spraying 1 lb AS (16oz) / gal/1000 for foliar apps of feeding, puttine 0.20 lb n to leaf.

SO.....I was thinking to increase my FAS mix to AS 6oz-8oz/gal/1000 for a Net of 0.08 - 0.10 lb N foliar. 
anyone have a problem with that?


----------



## g-man

You can do that. But be careful with your carrier rate using AMS. To me 0.25N of AMS in 2g/ksqft to avoid white tip leaves and do a quick irrigation cycle after 4hrs.


----------



## JERSEY

ive been doing it @ 2.5 oz/gal/1000 AS for a while, sometimes jacking it up to 4oz/gal/1000 in spring -fall..with better results.

I juggle around the FE rate....never an issue--and learned to lay off in the heat 2-3 years back.

I never spray over 85f.

I sprayed yesterday, and it dawned on me, Im too light on AS. I do get results at 2.5, but its soo light on N. 
Im Not looking to jack it to 8oz yet, but that still seems quite safe....(see pic) -even though that turf pro is using Urea.
I used that Turf pro blade Iron about 4 years back, works Awesome, but your buying water shipped.....thus I also went to FAS....dirt cheap.

Gman, I am not sure what you mean on carrier rate. I am also generally less than 1 gal per 1000 anyways..as a added safety margin with the tip im using.


----------



## Bombers

Carrier rate = volume of water over a specified area. Generally it is 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft for majority of stuff we use for our lawn. At .08 - .10 lb of N via AS, you should be safe at your carrier rate of "less than 1 gal per 1000". Higher carrier rate uses more water so it will require higher spray rate or doing a double pass to get the same coverage as a low carrier rate, but that will allow better coverage and less risk of over application.


----------



## JERSEY

got ya! yes, Im pretty conservative on that. And yes, double passing with lower rate has advantages, except you get more tired....LOL.

I plan on raising my AS to 6-8 oz/gal/1000 from 2-4oz.

I do run around 4-5 oz iron. i dont want to push that much more...that iron has its limits as well.

Yesterday I sprayed 2 oz/4oz. Fas....and it was nearly a instant response. My turf is very hungry and it got hammered in the last few weeks with 95-99f and no rains for a long time. so i went easy. First spray since may. I got alot of work to do..LOL........

No overseeding here......im going to be Mr Nitro.


----------



## g-man

I'm getting lost between AS, FS and FAS oz rates in the last posts.

I think the main benefit of a higher carrier rate is less concentrated drops on the leaves. AMS lowers the pH of the water and at high concentrations it can cause some damage.

If desired, you can mix in this order: water then AMS (and CA), then FS and then add urea (or DEF). This is what I normally do in the summer (but below 85F).


----------



## Thick n Dense

Ammonium sulfate by nature is always 21-0-0 correct? So the amounts on the very first page is agnostic to what brand is purchased correct?


----------



## Thick n Dense

Has the use of a surfactant been discussed for better distribution on the leaf blades ?

I was planning on using some dawn soap with my next app

Just curious if anyone had tried this

The thought is, insteqd of 1 big bead on the leaf, the FAS is spread out which gives it more sites to be absorbed


----------



## Wile

I use an XR Teejet nozzle for my Tnex and FAS apps (2oz Fe for cool season). This last time I used NIS at 2tsp per gallon and that was the darkest I have ever seen the lawn. My anecdotal findings are that I will try it with a NIS again.


----------



## JERSEY

what is NIS?


----------



## corneliani

JERSEY said:


> what is NIS?


Non-ionic surfactant.


----------



## JERSEY

Aha. Ok.
Can we use a little dish soap?


----------



## Wile

Sure. Just avoid antibacterial forms.


----------



## Tpack

corneliani said:


> JERSEY said:
> 
> 
> 
> what is NIS?
> 
> 
> 
> Non-ionic surfactant.
Click to expand...

OKTY


----------



## td_05

Where are you guys sourcing your citric acid?


----------



## g-man

Amazon


----------



## davegravy

td_05 said:


> Where are you guys sourcing your citric acid?


I found a 50lb bag of the stuff for pretty cheap at a supply store that serves the food industry. Way more than I'll ever need but it was still a good price.


----------



## memlawn

td_05 said:


> Where are you guys sourcing your citric acid?


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00EYFKNL8?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details


----------

