# Latitude 36 vs Tall Fescue - which is softer under foot?



## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Hi all, I'm new here. Forgive me if posting in warm season about a cold season grass is inappropriate, but I'm narrowing down grasses and these are the two varieties. I have a small area (~450 sqft) in my backyard that I'm sodding. I live in San Diego, so the weather is pretty consistently nice and never very cold. I have a dog and 2 kids, so there will be some traffic and pet issues. Irrigation (sprinklers) are in place and the area gets at least 4 hours of direct sunlight year round.

Typically, I'd plant tall fescue, which is what used to be here before I ripped it out redoing my backyard. In talking with the local sod farm, the guy really pushed me to Latitude 36 because of my kids and dog. It sounds like a great variety, but *the most important thing I want in my grass is a thick, soft carpet that feel amazing on my feet or laying on* - this is what I love to do with my small plot of grass. I know some Bermuda grasses are a bit rough and not particularly luxurious feeling, and I really want to avoid that. The sod guy said that it was very soft and that he thought I'd like it, but I'm hoping to get a few more confirmations of this.

I've not found any comparisons of L36 to tall fescue online, nor really seen any reviews on backyard usage (tons for sports turf, but not home use). Anyone here with first hand experience with L36 that can tell me how it might perform to my expectations of a thick, soft carpet of grass that is nice to walk/lay on?

Thanks for you help/input!


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

4 hours sounds like it's pushing it for Bermuda if you want it to be thick. It really needs at least 8 to reach its full potential for thickness.

Is this 4 hours a wintertime low? Any filtered sun?


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Hi. 4 hours is the minimum of direct sunlight, the rest of the day is indirect (filtered through a big pine tree). Maybe gets about 6 hours direct for part of the year. Thanks.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

I agree with BAF Bermuda will struggle with only 4 hours of sunlight. The feel can vary greatly depending on the HOC (height of cut) Bermuda tends to get leggy and stemy the taller it is.

Concretestorm just installed L36 at his place this year I'll tag him so he can offer his opinions on it. But with the sunlight issue I think fescue might be your best bet.


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Thanks, J. I've read that L36 is shade tolerant and needs only about 4 hours of direct sunlight, so I assumed it would work out fine. It sounds like both of you and BAF are suggesting that even if that is what is recommended, it isn't good enough. I definitely don't want it stunted and not thriving well. Thanks.


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

If I were in your shoes I would search around and see if you can find some examples of thriving Bermuda in San Diego and what kind of conditions it's growing in. I have a hard time believing Bermuda will truly thrive in the mild weather of that area. If you can trim some trees, maybe consider that. But unless you can get 6 hours I wouldn't go with bernuda of any type, with the mild weather and expected traffic it might survive but won't be thick.

Also, welcome to TLF!


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

Have you considered Zoysia? Not sure what the availability looks like out there, but I think that it would be a better fit considering sunlight constraints, as well as your want for a "carpet" feel


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

I would stick with TTTF based on what you have told us. Bermuda will get thin and "leggy" with to little sunlight (and 4-6 hours is to little) and most people tend to be allergic to bermuda, so laying in it could be unpleasant.


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## Iriasj2009 (Feb 15, 2017)

cnet24 said:


> Have you considered Zoysia? Not sure what the availability looks like out there, but I think that it would be a better fit considering sunlight constraints, as well as your want for a "carpet" feel


+1 my father in law has zoysia in Mexico and since it grows year around, it's even dense under his trees. Oh and it's real soft


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## Concretestorm (May 21, 2017)

J_nick said:


> I agree with BAF Bermuda will struggle with only 4 hours of sunlight. The feel can vary greatly depending on the HOC (height of cut) Bermuda tends to get leggy and stemy the taller it is.
> 
> Concretestorm just installed L36 at his place this year I'll tag him so he can offer his opinions on it. But with the sunlight issue I think fescue might be your best bet.


my latitude needs lots of sun to thrive. it will look okay with 6 hours, but if it gets 8+; it is amazing


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## fp_911 (Apr 10, 2017)

Funny you mention the whole "feel of carpet" and ask if Bermuda has that. It's actually one of the things I'm not a big fan of with this type of grass. I sometimes like to walk on my bare feet with the lawn and it really doesn't feel that soft. Granted it's decent and doesn't have the feel of weeds or anything but it feels more like artificial plastic turf than grass.

Oh well, minor inconvenience compared to what I see other Bermuda lawns look like!


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Thanks for your help, everyone. L36 is out since my landscaper friend said that it would absolutely go dormant from the few cold days we get. So I'm on the hunt for something that:
- won't go dormant
- tolerates partial shade
- durable for kids (no playing soccer or anything, but lots of standing and walking, etc.)
- can handle pets
- feels soft and luxurious under foot

I'm leaning towards native California Bent Grass or Aloha Seashore Paspalum. The native grass looks nice when long and can be mowed short to be more like a lawn, but it's pretty pricey.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Are you willing/able to water?


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## Guest (Aug 3, 2017)

Just throwing it out there maybe check out el toro zoysia. Its soft under the feet and I think it was developed in SoCal if I'm not mistaken. I'm in the process of converting my entire yard to it. I'll have some better pics when finished. I tried to talk the wife into tiftuf bermuda. We went and looked at several grasses and according to her it felt the best under feet. &#128514;


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I miss San Diego. Was stationed out there back in the early 90's, and I hated to leave the state when I got out.

For the under-feet feel, you can't beat Zoysia/St. Augustine. I'd lean you more toward the Zoysia due to the tolerance and wearability. My grandfather had an amazing lawn in TX that was always meticulously kept, and was cool during the hot summers, even growing under cedar, sycamore and pecan trees with no problem.


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## ATLawn (May 25, 2017)

+1 for Zoysia. To me it sounds like you're wanting the durability of bermuda with the shade tolerance of TTTF. Zoysia is going to be a great middle ground there to fulfill the most of your needs as possible. Not to mention it is incredibly plush underfoot.


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

In reading about Zoysia, it appears to not like shade very much and can only handle a small amount of it.

As far as watering goes, the entire area for the lawn has sprinklers, so watering is no problem.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

The most shade tolerant bermuda (Celebration) is at best about as shade tolerant as the least shade tolerant zoysias. If you are really worried about shade then I go back to the TTTF recommendation.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

I dont think any warm season grass "likes" shade, some tolerate it more than others. Atlanta has no shortage mature pine, oak trees and I see zoysia, struggling fescue (drought stress) as I stroll thru n. Atlanta (buckhead -your ga$lamp di$trict) where there is no way some of the areas get 5 hours directly.

At 4~6 hours, everything (establishing, recovery) will take a while, sounds like you want a cool season anyway.


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Yea, that's what I'm hearing - I need to get a cool season grass for where I live and for the shade. I'm hearing Paspalum, which apparently is a Bermuda, is likely the best option though. I guess it doesn't really go fully dormant where I live - it just gets a pale green - but otherwise can handle shade, pets, kids, etc.

Any experience with Paspalum from the folks here?

Thanks again.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I'd suggest taking a look at Kentucky Bluegrass. 4 hours of direct sun would be sufficient and the shade would protect it from extreme heat. It will need water but with the area being so small and with an irrigation system in place it shouldn't be a problem


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

erikcaso said:


> Yea, that's what I'm hearing - I need to get a cool season grass for where I live and for the shade. I'm hearing Paspalum, which apparently is a Bermuda, is likely the best option though. I guess it doesn't really go fully dormant where I live - it just gets a pale green - but otherwise can handle shade, pets, kids, etc.
> 
> Any experience with Paspalum from the folks here?
> 
> Thanks again.


yes, our Paspalum SME is


> Southernguy311


. It's not a Bermuda but a lot of similar characteristics. Just like any grass, there are various versions - which one are you referring to ? he's been dominating it..http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=221&p=4592#p4592


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## southernguy311 (Mar 17, 2017)

jayhawk said:


> erikcaso said:
> 
> 
> > 1502131611[/url] user_id=481]
> ...


 Paspalum is a wonderful grass, but it really depends on how filtered your light is.

Reading through this thread I would recommend Thermal Blue KBG or Tifgrand 
Bermuda. I'm not sure I would recommend the Paspalum on this installation.


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## erikcaso (Aug 1, 2017)

Hi, thanks for your input. This is the paspalum I'm looking at: https://www.westcoastturf.com/Platinum-TE-paspalum-sod

It seems most sod vendors around me have stopped carrying blue grass or blends that include it and other grasses to toughen up fescue. Not sure why, but three places I called all said they don't carry it anymore. It seemed like a pretty good option though.

Tifgrand looks great, but will go dormant, which is a non-starter for me.

My filtered light is through a Torrey pine tree, so there is a sort of moving direct sunlight that hits the area as the sun passes behind the tree. It's not a hard shade that puts the area completely without sunlight.


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## southernguy311 (Mar 17, 2017)

erikcaso said:


> Hi, thanks for your input. This is the paspalum I'm looking at: https://www.westcoastturf.com/Platinum-TE-paspalum-sod
> 
> It seems most sod vendors around me have stopped carrying blue grass or blends that include it and other grasses to toughen up fescue. Not sure why, but three places I called all said they don't carry it anymore. It seemed like a pretty good option though.
> 
> ...


The small area of Tifgrand in my back yard only went dormant last year when we had a frost. Paspalum will also go dormant after a frost so no advantage there.

You should be able to source the bluegrass seed online. The reason I recommend bluegrass it it's ability to fill back in with stolons as well as remain green year round. With pets you want something that is always self repairing. If a spot of fescue gets injured by pet urine, you will have to reseed. No bueno in my book.


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