# How does grass grow in this



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Had some trees planted today. They dug about a foot and a half down and had to chip the holes in the ground, more or less. I can't believe grass grows in this. They look like rocks but they're basically blocks of hardened clay. Makes me wonder if I should be changing my watering program up a bit. I did get some soil conditioner (tournament ready w/actosol) to hopefully get some more moisture deeper in the soil.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

Grass in your yard: I need an inch of water per week and proper fertilization in order to survive.

Grass growing in the cracks of the concrete: I will grow anywhere just to spite you.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

KoopHawk said:


> Grass in your yard: I need an inch of water per week and proper fertilization in order to survive.
> 
> Grass growing in the cracks of the concrete: I will grow anywhere just to spite you.


Good point. We just had a new road put in last year. It's black top. There are weeds literally pushing through the blacktop. So, I guess I feel better now lol.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Your lawn and soil look very dry. Are you irrigating at all?


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

g-man said:


> Your lawn and soil look very dry. Are you irrigating at all?


I am, quite a bit recently, too. I'm still dialing in my irrigation system. But, to answer the question, yes. I'm irrigating, just not enough. I realized that to put down a 1/2" of water it needs to run almost an hour per zone in the front yard, which is 4 zones and 40 mins in the back yard, also 4 zones. I was nowhere near that at the start of the season (first full season with lawn and sprinklers)


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> g-man said:
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> > Your lawn and soil look very dry. Are you irrigating at all?
> ...


This is the hiccup for many homeowners. They have no idea how much water they are actually putting down when they water. Better irrigation practices will certainly lead to a better looking lawn. Once you think you've got your system figured out, you'll spend the next couple years tweaking and adjusting it if you're like me!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ this

Spend time getting the irrigation correct. This morning i walk thru my zone 4 while irrigating because the grass was not looking great there. 3 of the heads had the top nozzle loose and pointing in the wrong direction. I fixed it all i could without getting too wet. There is one head that needs digging to get it level again.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

KoopHawk said:


> PFTanx said:
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I think I've changed every nozzle. First from 3.0 to 4.0, now after testing and seeing still lacking water in certain areas I may try a 3.0 Low angle nozzle. In the meantime I've been supplamenting those areas with a hose and sprinkler 🙄 also just added some wetting agent in those areas. What I really need to do is add another head, but I'm not equipped for such tasks.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

KoopHawk said:


> PFTanx said:
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> > g-man said:
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Can confirm. I spend no less than 20 minutes a day tweaking my Rachio settings.
Last summer, I was re-configuring my heads/nozzles based on amounts of sun.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Is there any nozzle out there that people swear by? Like maybe a non OEM? The rain bird nozzles are just ok. I've found the pattern to be ok on them, but nothing special. Seems like a big trade off of distance for width of spray.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Is there any nozzle out there that people swear by? Like maybe a non OEM? The rain bird nozzles are just ok. I've found the pattern to be ok on them, but nothing special. Seems like a big trade off of distance for width of spray.


Hunter MP Rotators with PRS 30/40 pressure-regulating heads are my go-to. Nice, low, precipitation rate. Pair it with a Rachio controller and you won't have to think about messing with your sprinklers nearly as often.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You can't just swap nozzles like that. You need to follow the vendor guide. You want the 90 degree corner to be 1/4 gpm than the 360 degree ones. And the 180 to be half the gpm of the 360. Each nozzle needs to reach the other head.

After doing that, then run the system to get 0.5in of irrigation into an empty tuna can. Run it every 3 days.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

g-man said:


> You can't just swap nozzles like that. You need to follow the vendor guide. You want the 90 degree corner to be 1/4 gpm than the 360 degree ones. And the 180 to be half the gpm of the 360. Each nozzle needs to reach the other head.
> 
> After doing that, then run the system to get 0.5in of irrigation into an empty tuna can. Run it every 3 days.


This is something I was cognizant of. No issue there. The company that installed my irrigation was very much "back woods", so I don't think it was configured appropriately. While each head can reach the other, if I run it long enough to get 1/2 inch in one part of a zone the other half of that same zone will put down 3". It's pretty crazy, but I think the design wasn't thought out a my all.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Something I experimented with today was blocking off one head, in the well watered healthy section to test the throw and width of spray on the other. The difference was significant. My 1/2 hp well pump does great with 3 heads per zone and 4 is too much. I did replace one head last year with a rain bird 5000 plus that has an on/off function. I think in my 4 head zones that have under watered areas I'll put a pro in the over watered areas. I can easily and selectively turn this head on and off as my watering needs change.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Just completed the swap out from the rain bird 5000 to the plus, turned it off and the difference was amazing. I got an extra 6 feet from each of the 3 heads that were left on. All dry and under watered areas get hit multiple times by multiple heads. The one that is off is in a corner that is shaded, is probably over watered and gets hit by two other heads. I'll probably turn that off every other watering going forward. My neighbors must think I'm nuts becuase I've been out there tinkering with the sprinkler system daily for about 2-3 weeks. Oddly, I enjoy it.


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## CrispyLawn (Jul 27, 2021)

> How does grass grow in this


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Just completed the swap out from the rain bird 5000 to the plus, turned it off and the difference was amazing. I got an extra 6 feet from each of the 3 heads that were left on. All dry and under watered areas get hit multiple times by multiple heads. The one that is off is in a corner that is shaded, is probably over watered and gets hit by two other heads. I'll probably turn that off every other watering going forward. My neighbors must think I'm nuts becuase I've been out there tinkering with the sprinkler system daily for about 2-3 weeks. Oddly, I enjoy it.


This was me after I moved into my house a couple years ago. I was digging up every Rainbird spray head and replacing them all with Hunter heads and MP Rotator nozzles. Then after the swap, I had a bunch of risers that broke, so more digging. My front yard is filled with tree roots, so I had the sidewalk covered with sod, dirt, and here I was with my sawzall hacking up roots so I can dig up heads.

I've got drawings of all my zones with all the nozzle specs and spray radius' drawn on them :lol:


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

spaceman_spiff said:


> PFTanx said:
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> > Just completed the swap out from the rain bird 5000 to the plus, turned it off and the difference was amazing. I got an extra 6 feet from each of the 3 heads that were left on. All dry and under watered areas get hit multiple times by multiple heads. The one that is off is in a corner that is shaded, is probably over watered and gets hit by two other heads. I'll probably turn that off every other watering going forward. My neighbors must think I'm nuts becuase I've been out there tinkering with the sprinkler system daily for about 2-3 weeks. Oddly, I enjoy it.
> ...


Are hunters really that much better than rainburd? I'm wondering if the MP Rotator would make sense for a particularly stubborn dry area I've been fighting. How hard is it to swap a RB 5000 for a MP Rotator

Edit-I see rainbird has the RVAN, which is similar to the MP Rotator. I wonder how the precip amount would be for the same 50 min runtime that my rainbird 5000 has. Worth a shot. Can always send it back to Amazon if it's sub par 🤣


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

I've never had rainbird so won't comment if the MP rotators are much better, but I've got a few zones with the MP 2000's and love them. Especially because I've got silty clay and on a slope.

I dont get run off and they do very well in windy conditions. Best part is you can mix and match the different sizes and radius'

They are slower to put down water so you'll most likely have to run them longer but that means they are more efficient, allowing water to soak in instead of running off or evaporating.

I would recommend for anyone with any type of clay.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> spaceman_spiff said:
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Only thing is you don't want to mix spray and rotator nozzles on the same zone due to the mismatched PRs (typically by a lot). The rotators usually need to run way longer than the sprays. Which is an advantage of the rotators with respect to runoff.

Now, I have a mix of 0.4 in/hr (MP 1/2000) and 0.8 in/hr (MP815 and MP8000SR short radius) rotator nozzles on the same zones to make up for some deficiencies in the design when the system was installed 20 years ago; layout and also sunny/shaded areas on the same zone.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

Justmatson said:


> *they do very well in windy conditions*


You have my attention. I am currently watching the wind blow 25 mph with 50 mph gusts. I typically plan my watering around the nights where the wind is less than 8-10 mph so I can get even coverage. The wind really impacts my Rainbird 5000s.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

MP Rotators are good, but not that good. They aren't gonna hold up to 50 mph gusts :lol:


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Ah. That makes sense, but I looked at the specs sheets…..what am I missing?

Rainbird 5000 with 4.0 nozzle = .42 in/hr @ 35 psi
RVAN 24 360 @ 35 psi = .61 in/hr


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

KoopHawk said:


> Justmatson said:
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> > *they do very well in windy conditions*
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Ya I probably wouldn't water with 50mph gust either. :lol:

The mp rotators uses streams of droplets instead of a spray. They make some pretty neat spray nozzles too, and distances between 8' - 35'

I've been thinking of switching out my other zones that have Hunter rotors for these.

Check out this quick video from hunter:
https://www.hunterindustries.com/videos/mp-rotator-prevents-runoff-and-misting


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

Obviously I wouldn't water in 25-50 mph like some of my neighbors do but if I could get improved coverage in 10mph wind that is certainly something to think about.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@spaceman_spiff I use the PRS40 valve bodies and MP Rotators with a Rachio controller. I'm concerned it's not putting down enough water. I'm using Flex Daily and it's getting data from my weather station. I'm thinking about changing my root depth setting from 4" to 6".


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @spaceman_spiff I use the PRS40 valve bodies and MP Rotators with a Rachio controller. I'm concerned it's not putting down enough water. I'm using Flex Daily and it's getting data from my weather station. I'm thinking about changing my root depth setting from 4" to 6".


Why are you concerned?

Have you done an irrigation audit?


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @spaceman_spiff I use the PRS40 valve bodies and MP Rotators with a Rachio controller. I'm concerned it's not putting down enough water. I'm using Flex Daily and it's getting data from my weather station. I'm thinking about changing my root depth setting from 4" to 6".


You should be using 6" for TTTF/KBG or else, yes, it wouldn't put down enough water. At a 4" root setting, it's only putting down enough water to fill 2" (assuming your AD is 50%), so you're probably starving the grass a bit. It is essential that your soil type and AWC values are correct or you could be mis-watering by a ton.

My city told me my soil was clay loam, which has an AWC of 0.2 according to Rachio. After doing some research (and results from my soil analysis), it turns out it's more along the lines of 0.12-0.14, which makes a HUGE difference. I had been watering way too much at once, and not frequently enough, so I was drying out my grass way too much between waterings.

Here's a great tool (and instructions on how to use it) to confirm your soil type/AWC:
https://media.rach.io/downloads/community/Web_Soil_Survey_Instructions_rev1.pdf

But yes, please do an irrigation audit so your PR and efficiency are accurate. Use this to find your head efficiency:
https://wateringschedule.com/get-started/#/stations


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## San (Jun 21, 2021)

spaceman_spiff said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
> 
> 
> > @spaceman_spiff I use the PRS40 valve bodies and MP Rotators with a Rachio controller. I'm concerned it's not putting down enough water. I'm using Flex Daily and it's getting data from my weather station. I'm thinking about changing my root depth setting from 4" to 6".
> ...


Changing the root depth doesn't change the total amount of water it puts down.
It just changes how frequent and how much water each time it puts down.
Less root depth is more frequent, smaller amounts, more root depth is less frequent, larger amount, the total. amount stays the same.

Outside of setting up your water output correctly for each zone, based on physically calibrating them.
To affect the total amount you have to change the crop efficiency.

If you haven't already, you want to go into one of your zones, click edit, go advanced, there will be a small lock next to crop efficiency. Look at what the percentage is you currently have, then click the lock and set it to auto adjust (for all zones). And see what it changes to, as you want to make sure it goes higher than your old setting.
During the hot summer months it will auto increase and therefore put more water down and when it gets colder it will auto decrease and reduce the total amount of water.

For me this auto adjust is pretty much in line with what I would be manually setting it to, but if it doesn't for for you, you can click the lock again and change it back to manual and adjust the slider upwards to increase the total water your system is putting down.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@Justmatson I plan to run an audit in the morning.

@spaceman_spiff Here are my zone settings. My soil type is accurate based on a Waypoint soil test I did this spring. I'll also check out the AWC tool you linked.

I appreciate the responses!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Crop coefficient should be 80 or greater. Try 100


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks @g-man. Does that setting need to change during the irrigation season?


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Thanks @g-man. Does that setting need to change during the irrigation season?


Yes manual change it right now. Probably to 100% because we are into summer and you have a lot of sand.

Then do your audit and make sure the zone or each zone is matching what Rachio thinks your heads are putting down (0.42"/hr)


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @Justmatson I plan to run an audit in the morning.
> 
> @spaceman_spiff Here are my zone settings. My soil type is accurate based on a Waypoint soil test I did this spring. I'll also check out the AWC tool you linked.
> 
> I appreciate the responses!


Update your Rachio phone app and click the lock icon on the crop coefficient. Like @g-man said, it should be higher at this point during the year. In northern CA, my dynamic coefficient is 85% for July. I personally think it should be closer to 100 as well, but I'm giving my Rachio value a shot.

Your soil type and CEC are a pretty close match to mine.


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## San (Jun 21, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Thanks @g-man. Does that setting need to change during the irrigation season?


See my earlier reply for how to set it.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@spaceman_spiff... I used the app and applied the dynamic coefficient for all zones. This changed it to 84% for July. However, when I check the zones settings from the browser, it doesn't show 84% or that it's dynamic. Is that to be expected?

Great info everyone, I appreciate it!


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

After the changes I made last night, Rachio calculated and ran the schedule below. The rain gauge I placed ended up with right at 1" of water. The next scheduled run for both of these zones is now Wednesday.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You might need to adjust the in/hr in the rachio. You entered 0.41in/hr and you got 1in/hr. Is this an overlapping zone? Do more catch cups in the zones.


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## Wally (Apr 5, 2020)

This Rachio page explains which settings adjust frequency and/or run time. Some settings change both frequency and run time while others just change one. My lawn was getting fungus pressure so I just wanted to change frequency. The only two settings that adjust just frequency is crop coefficient and sun/shade. 
https://support.rachio.com/en_us/how-do-i-edit-duration-and-frequency-on-flexible-daily-schedules-r10FDLkFw


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@g-man Yes, the gauge was placed between the upper and lower zone in a place that would have overlap coverage.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @spaceman_spiff... I used the app and applied the dynamic coefficient for all zones. This changed it to 84% for July. However, when I check the zones settings from the browser, it doesn't show 84% or that it's dynamic. Is that to be expected?
> 
> Great info everyone, I appreciate it!


The web UI doesn't have the dynamic setting for some weird reason. If it's locked in the app, you should be good to go.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

You guys are making me want o swap my b-hyve out for the Rachio.


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Had some trees planted today. They dug about a foot and a half down and had to chip the holes in the ground, more or less. I can't believe grass grows in this. They look like rocks but they're basically blocks of hardened clay. Makes me wonder if I should be changing my watering program up a bit. I did get some soil conditioner (tournament ready w/actosol) to hopefully get some more moisture deeper in the soil.


Grass is amazing and as many have posted it grows where ever it wants.
Although not so well in areas you really want it. Example below. This is at the corner of the Driveway and Street side. Its basically Sand and salt run off from the winters. Sees 0 irrigation other than mother nature and no feeding yet this tall fescue thrives! 
Mean while my tall fescue in the yard is not doing as well. Also my wife is on my arse to kill the grass coming up in the stone drive. 
Theres good and bad with clay soil
Clay will hold moister and nutrients well
Although once clay is dry and hard and compacted water tends to run off.
You may need to run your irrigation for longer deep soakings to break that tension. Wetting agents might be helpful.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@g-man and @spaceman_spiff... Since my nozzles in each zone are head-to-head coverage AND overlap with the other zone, should I cut the precip/hr in half in each zone setting? Each zone is shown in the attached picture of my lawn. Thanks!


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

spaceman_spiff said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
> 
> 
> > @spaceman_spiff... I used the app and applied the dynamic coefficient for all zones. This changed it to 84% for July. However, when I check the zones settings from the browser, it doesn't show 84% or that it's dynamic. Is that to be expected?
> ...


Thanks, I double-checked and it's locked in the app. Thanks for the reply.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

PFTanx said:


> You guys are making me want o swap my b-hyve out for the Rachio.


I learn more about the capabilities of the Rachio controller all the time. I'm very please with it.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > You guys are making me want o swap my b-hyve out for the Rachio.
> ...


Going to try and pick a used 8 zone controller on eBay.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @g-man and @spaceman_spiff... Since my nozzles in each zone are head-to-head coverage AND overlap with the other zone, should I cut the precip/hr in half in each zone setting? Each zone is shown in the attached picture of my lawn. Thanks!


You need to do an irrigation audit with 10ish catch cups to determine how much water is actually being put down. There's no way around this if you want an accurate PR.



PFTanx said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
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Check Costco. They go on sale there fairly regularly. Also check with your city. Mine gave me a $175 rebate to install one, so it cost me like a net $40 a few years ago.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@spaceman_spiff Good idea. I'll put them out and see what it looks like after running each zone 30 minutes.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In your image, that is really one zone (area). You need to run both rachio zones every time and you should cut the precipitation/hr in half so when you run both of them you get the total correct. It is one of the "features" I dont think rachio does too good. It assume a zone = an area.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

g-man said:


> In your image, that is really one zone (area). You need to run both rachio zones every time and you should cut the precipitation/hr in half so when you run both of them you get the total correct. It is one of the "features" I dont think rachio does too good. It assume a zone = an area.


Thanks @g-man, I appreciate the advice.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Definitely impressive the grass is doing to well in that soil. You must do a good job maintaining it because the roots won't be able get very deep in soil like that.

The reality though is most home lawns have less than perfect soil. Especially sub division housing developments where contractors care more about production of the home than quality of the soil in the lawn. They usually just spread the construction fill dirt back over the lawn and lay some sod over top of it knowing that the new home owner won't realize the problem until years down the road.


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## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

It's coming back. I've done two apps of tournament in the really dry areas. No doubt now that the issue is irrigation. The other random parts are definitely from the plywood put down and the mini loader driving on it.

I'm still dialing in my irrigation. I've changed a lot of nozzles and am replacing several of my RB 5000s with 5000 plus so I can shut off certain ones and just do supplemental watering in certain areas without wasting water in areas that don't need it. Overall, confirmed crappy layout by the company that installed my irrigation.

Finally, put down 6 bags of milogranite and 30#s of granular Azoxy last night. Rain in the morning so should start seeing some more green up soon.

Next I'll put down the simple lawn solutions Humic/kelp mixture.


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