# Current state of Tall Fescue



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Tall Fescue has come a long way in terms of improvement, but it looks like the breeders are still working at a rapid pace to improve things like disease tolerance (brown patch, pythium, and snow mold are still rough), texture (it still can get coarse, and tends to have sharp edges), and growth habit (to make it more similar to KBG in terms of spreading, and less clumpy). When I started using TTTF with Bullseye in 2012, it was top rated, but now other newer types have surpassed it. Tall fescue seems to be where the most action is these days. I wonder where we'll be in another 10 years. Any ideas?


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

I think they will eventually breed tall fescue to be cut at tees/fairway height


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Yeah, I imagine HOC tolerance will be a priority. I think that we will see more and more cultivars that tolerate 2 inches and below.

I also imagine that brown patch resistance will be the highest priority, followed either by color or HOC.

With all of the interest in LS, one might guess that the focus will be on perfecting a spreading cultivar. However, as far as I can tell, gains on LS seem slow, so I don't think we'll see bona fide spreading TTTF in 10 years.

In 20? Sure, why not.

I just hope that RU-resistant, cold tolerant Bermuda hasn't spread everywhere by that point.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

social port said:


> Yeah, I imagine HOC tolerance will be a priority. I think that we will see more and more cultivars that tolerate 2 inches and below.
> 
> ...
> 
> I just hope that RU-resistant, cold tolerant Bermuda hasn't spread everywhere by that point.


Or just the 2nd generation (3rd?) Of cold tolerant Bermuda...coupled with inability to purchase RU.

@Turfguy93 , I agree with both of you that HOC tolerance should be and likely is a current, immediately doable modification for TF. Maybe initial selection will happen in @g-man's lawn! I've seen one or two cultivars advertised so far that claim to tolerate heights a bit under 1.5 in, and a lot advertising down to 1.5.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

My tttf is looking pretty good at 3/4in. But I don't like that it can't spread like kbg (or the wide blades). Eventually CRISPR will get us to better cultivars.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I think heat and drought dormancy is another aspect that can be worked on.

Everything I've read suggests that the bulk of our TTTF is based on the "Continental" strain, which tends to be Summer active, staying green as long as possible. The negative being, it hates dormancy and only does "incomplete dormancy", in practice meaning that if every single last trace of green on the plant goes away, it will likely die.

On the flip side, the Mediterranean types (Summer dormant types) readily go totally brown easier with comparatively more mild heat and drought stress, but can stay that way for a long time, and revive fully later.

Pick your poison! We need something in between the two.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It's called KBG.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm also waiting for TTRF...turf type rye-fescue, a hybrid of PR and TF. They have it already for forage, but not yet for turf. It should do better in heat and cold than PR, but be finer textured than TF. I also read in one of the old articles on the MSU archive that today's TTTF apparently already has some ryegrass DNA added in. They can do it because the two grasses are very closely related. You can't hybridize KBG with either one, though...it's a totally different grass type.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I think color for TTTF is already "There" with the newer cultivars. I bet disease resistance is the #1 priority for breeders. TTTF=Brown Patch for a lot of people. Then again... Bayer and Syngenta might already have one, and they aren't releasing it!

#70'scarburetorconspiracy.


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## XiolaOne (Jul 30, 2018)

Better drought/heat resistance and be able to spread appeals to me


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Color is definitely there. Any darker and it's going to be gray/black!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Genetics

https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-303

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2958922/#!po=8.20313


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

It would be nice if LS / rhizomatous TTTF meant spreading, but right now it looks like it's just marketing. Maybe it helps with drought tolerance?

http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_17-8/tf1217t18.txt


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

samjonester said:


> It would be nice if LS / rhizomatous TTTF meant spreading, but right now it looks like it's just marketing. Maybe it helps with drought tolerance?
> 
> http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_17-8/tf1217t18.txt


I also heard someone say it helps sod farmers be able to roll it without the plastic mesh backing. That seemed to make sense.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

samjonester said:


> It would be nice if LS / rhizomatous TTTF meant spreading, but right now it looks like it's just marketing. Maybe it helps with drought tolerance?
> 
> http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_17-8/tf1217t18.txt


It does tiller aggressively and will "fill" (or really just cover with dense canopy) small holes - like golf ball sized. Anything bigger, not there yet.


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## Druet (May 7, 2018)

samjonester said:


> It would be nice if LS / rhizomatous TTTF meant spreading, but right now it looks like it's just marketing. Maybe it helps with drought tolerance?
> 
> http://www.ntep.org/data/tf12/tf12_17-8/tf1217t18.txt


I agree that from what I've seen the spreading characteristics are not there yet. On the other hand, NTEP numbers show that some of these LS TTTF have great brown patch tolerance. They may have accidentally fixed one problem while trying to solve another. I'm going with Titanium2 LS mixed with some Traverse2 SRP for my overseed this fall.


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

Druet said:


> samjonester said:
> 
> 
> > It would be nice if LS / rhizomatous TTTF meant spreading, but right now it looks like it's just marketing. Maybe it helps with drought tolerance?
> ...


Interesting point! I Got my Hogan seed in the mail today . From the slip, Rebounder _appears_ to be marketed as a rhizomatous TTTF, and the features that it is marketed as possessing are brown patch resistance, and stress/drought tolerance.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I guess the question in my mind is, is fescue even worth it. You can grow KBG with the same amount of effort anywhere you can grow fescue, and it will spread to self-repair. Yes, fescue establishes faster, but with KBG you don't have to seed every year so after initial establishment it's advantage KBG. Fescue is darker - newer cultivars - but KBG is finer bladed, and color can be managed with iron/PGR.

But the kicker is, as far as I can tell KBG is far more disease resistant. I have a mix of fescue and bluegrass in the back and after about 8 days of rain the fescue literally just melted into the ground from fungus, while the bluegrass has been left standing with no issues.

Watering seems to be about the same for me.

What say ye?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@@j4c11, where I live, that's definitely all true. But what about for you, halfway down the East Coast? Do you think it all still holds? I thought Fescue was the default.

The reason we use Tall Fescue here is because it stays green better in the heat and you can get away with a bit less fertilizer if you want, and seeding is faster. But KBG in home lawns is still much more common here by far. That may be because it's used more often alone, in mixes, or both, and it spreads into dead areas. It's also an almost perfect grass for our cilmate, but requires more frequent watering and fertilizer than Tall Fescue.

I actually got excited about Tall Fescue the way a lot of people do about KBG.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

I'm doing a partial front yard reno that was a traditional norther mix with too much fine fescue. That's all dead now and being replaced with TTTF mix from SSS. I'm excited to see how it goes. I really like the look of TTTF as well as it's drought tolerance. I put some seeds in a put to test them and I think they germinate as fast as PRG. I'm about 10 days in and they are 2-3 inches high already.


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> I guess the question in my mind is, is fescue even worth it. You can grow KBG with the same amount of effort anywhere you can grow fescue,
> What say ye?


But KBG is not all that shade tolerant, correct? I'm in the transition zone and can grow TTTF fairly well in the shade but I was under the impression KBG would not fair too well in this particular condition.

I think @georgiadad is growing KBG south of the transition zone but I'm assuming it's in sun/mostly sun?

Or did your statement assume lawns in sunny or mostly sunny areas?


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> I have a mix of fescue and bluegrass in the back and after about 8 days of rain the fescue literally just melted into the ground from fungus, while the bluegrass has been left standing with no issues.
> 
> Watering seems to be about the same for me.
> 
> What say ye?


I wish I had that fungus! :lol:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I think the difference in fertilizer isn't large between TTTF and KBG. Not enough for that to be a concern to me. For me, the biggest thing is water. Most lawns in my area are not irrigated. Fescue seems to hold it's color longer in the heat without water. If you water, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend KBG. Not needing to reseed so you can use prodiamine in early fall to stop poa annua. Big plus to me but alas, water is the problem...


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## georgiadad (Aug 18, 2018)

@ j4c11 I have a TTTF backyard with a little kbg thrown in and a kbg frontyard. The biggest lesson I learned at the other site is "learn to read your lawn". Some of the things I do to keep it going goes against normal practices people further north do. Thus the reason I am sometimes hesitant to offer advice.

As you know the south can get hot during the summer. How hot? Damn hot! A few years ago we had 90 straight days of 90* or hotter. some triple digit days in the mix also. My house faces north. I have 2 big trees on the east and west sides of the yard. They provide rolling shade throughout the day. If I didn't have those tress, I don't think the kbg would survive. The backyard has more shade. Thus TTTF does just fine back there.

@ pokeGrande I have Midnight, Award, and NuChicago. I haven't had any problem with them growing under the tress. TTTF just would not survive in the front no matter what I did.

The differences I've noticed down here. When stressed. TTTF starts to go dormant. If you don't catch it fast, it's gone. Kbg on the hand can be brought back. During heat spells, (temps over 95*) I water 2-3 times a week, .5". I also feed the lawn organically during the summer. You can't thrown down fert. but you can throw down cracked corn, alfalfa, ect. without burning the grass. Once the temps break in late Sept.. I can start using ferts.. I also start spraying milk and dropping alfalfa to fill in bare spots

If you use a quality TTTF seed you shouldn't need to over-seed yearly. I haven't over-seeded the backyard in 3-4 years. But it looks like it needs it this year. I may add a little more Midnight kbg to help the repair process.

From where I sit. I love kbg. When you walk on it barefooted.  But it takes work. Lucky me I have summer patch. So I'm fighting it all summer. It takes more water and fertilizer. It gets rust every damn spring. :x My neighbor has Bermuda. :evil: God I hate that grass. It's so invasive. I've got a patch of it I'm going to have to round-up and reseed this fall. For all the work, I love it.

TTTF in the backyard looks good. It takes less work, less water, less fertilizer, and still looks good. But to my eye just doesn't look as good as kbg.,

I just realized how long this post is. sorry about that.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I think the difference in fertilizer isn't large between TTTF and KBG. Not enough for that to be a concern to me. For me, the biggest thing is water. Most lawns in my area are not irrigated. Fescue seems to hold it's color longer in the heat without water. If you water, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend KBG. Not needing to reseed so you can use prodiamine in early fall to stop poa annua. Big plus to me but alas, water is the problem...


Remember KBG does dormancy. My experience is similar to yours, but during a drought this summer (I didn't irrigate)I lost some of my fescue and the KBG greened up after rain.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > I think the difference in fertilizer isn't large between TTTF and KBG. Not enough for that to be a concern to me. For me, the biggest thing is water. Most lawns in my area are not irrigated. Fescue seems to hold it's color longer in the heat without water. If you water, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend KBG. Not needing to reseed so you can use prodiamine in early fall to stop poa annua. Big plus to me but alas, water is the problem...
> ...


I guess since I always seed fescue every fall, I expect some of it to die in summer. Didn't think much of it. I haven't lost a whole lawn or even patches so I haven't experienced enough die off to have empty areas. I don't have much experience with KBG in summer. Did it all green up or were you left with some dead areas? I wonder since it spreads, is it like bermuda or zoysia where it'll turn brown and come back in the right conditions but not die off? The nomix which is common here, I haven't looked at them carefully to see how much is KBG.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > I think the difference in fertilizer isn't large between TTTF and KBG. Not enough for that to be a concern to me. For me, the biggest thing is water. Most lawns in my area are not irrigated. Fescue seems to hold it's color longer in the heat without water. If you water, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend KBG. Not needing to reseed so you can use prodiamine in early fall to stop poa annua. Big plus to me but alas, water is the problem...
> ...


Similar here this year. Fescue lawns were the last to brown out but many areas don't seem to be coming back. And that is with irrigation (many folks don't seem to know how much water is really used when it's hot and dry in July).


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Suburban Jungle Life I was left with a few small areas in the KBG lawn where it's full sun against the road/driveway. The rest of it greened up. I experienced more kill in the KBG/Fescue area in the backyard that is against the asphalt driveway, but my contractors also cleaned their equipment in the area, so I'm not sure if it was just heat or some chemicals/debri that caused this. 
I've found KBG to be an aggressive spring/fall spreader in my area. I am not overseeding this year, but did throw KBG seed down 7/30 in the worst 2 areas. It has been hot but rainy since this time, I've got two sprouts so far. I'm deciding on seeding more in the next week vs just letting the area spread. 
The KBG looked sickly during the heat/drought, but looks great now with no supplemental water from irrigation.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I think the difference in fertilizer isn't large between TTTF and KBG. Not enough for that to be a concern to me. For me, the biggest thing is water. Most lawns in my area are not irrigated. Fescue seems to hold it's color longer in the heat without water. If you water, I wouldn't hesitate to recommend KBG. Not needing to reseed so you can use prodiamine in early fall to stop poa annua. Big plus to me but alas, water is the problem...


Right. Tall Fescue is 2-4 or 2-5 lbs N per year, and KBG is 2.5-6 or 3-7 per year. Extrapolating, that'd be 2.5-5 for a mix of the two. The range is because of growing season length and stand age. I don't think I've ever droped 6 lbs in a year!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > Suburban Jungle Life said:
> ...


Same here. I was watering twice a week at about a half inch in July on new grass from the year before. Problem was that ET was 0.2 in per day. I was in a 0.4 inch irrigation deficit even in the areas with best coverage, and lower in other areas! I still have a lot of brown!

Our town athletic fields had thick, lush KBG while it was in the 90s for weeks with no rain! They must have been watering 2 inches per week and throwing on the Milo every month!


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

So, from what I'm hearing based on everyone's experience, fescue stays green longer than KBG but once it turns brown, fescue is toast but KBG will come back, like the dormancy of bermuda or zoysia in winter. This is for non-irrigated turf and no rain. For irrigated turf or consistent rain, you can keep both green all summer. Sound about right?


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> So, from what I'm hearing based on everyone's experience, fescue stays green longer than KBG but once it turns brown, fescue is toast but KBG will come back, like the dormancy of bermuda or zoysia in winter. This is for non-irrigated turf and no rain. For irrigated turf or consistent rain, you can keep both green all summer. Sound about right?


Non-irrigated - I've had TTTF turn brown dormant and come back with rainfall. Of course, I've also had brown TTTF stay dead. :sad: Now the TF has stayed mostly green through the heat/drought


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> So, from what I'm hearing based on everyone's experience, fescue stays green longer than KBG but once it turns brown, fescue is toast but KBG will come back, like the dormancy of bermuda or zoysia in winter. This is for non-irrigated turf and no rain. For irrigated turf or consistent rain, you can keep both green all summer. Sound about right?


Yes, pretty much. As a general proposition it's fair to say KBG goes dormant sooner but can stay dormant longer and still recover.


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## stevenbowman (Aug 16, 2018)

Hi guys, i've attached a couple of pics of a 70% tall fescue lawn that i treat here in Switzerland. The owner through no fault of her own bought a robot mower that has a maximum height of cut of 2cm. This is one of the only lawns that i treat that i have not seen disease on this year. Food for thought! ....although it could be that the has a more favorable microclimate i could well be worth doing some experinenting on your side of the pond


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

georgiadad said:


> @ j4c11 I have a TTTF backyard with a little kbg thrown in and a kbg frontyard. The biggest lesson I learned at the other site is "learn to read your lawn". Some of the things I do to keep it going goes against normal practices people further north do. Thus the reason I am sometimes hesitant to offer advice.
> 
> As you know the south can get hot during the summer. How hot? Damn hot! A few years ago we had 90 straight days of 90* or hotter. some triple digit days in the mix also. My house faces north. I have 2 big trees on the east and west sides of the yard. They provide rolling shade throughout the day. If I didn't have those tress, I don't think the kbg would survive. The backyard has more shade. Thus TTTF does just fine back there.
> 
> ...


Good stuff, thanks for the info.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Powhatan said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > So, from what I'm hearing based on everyone's experience, fescue stays green longer than KBG but once it turns brown, fescue is toast but KBG will come back, like the dormancy of bermuda or zoysia in winter. This is for non-irrigated turf and no rain. For irrigated turf or consistent rain, you can keep both green all summer. Sound about right?
> ...


Has anyone had the entire plant turn brown...not a hint of green left...and it still came back? I had some go mostly brown but there was a hint of green left. It's coming out with new leaves now since we haven't been in the 90s much lately.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Powhatan said:
> 
> 
> > Suburban Jungle Life said:
> ...


Yes, I'm remembering a spot from this Summer where there was brown TTTF in "suspended animation" - an area where the leaves turned completely brown, remaining mostly upright supported by each other. Very distinctive look to it. Quite crispy.

Irrigation was not covering adequately in that area. I caught it within one week (on that lot I'm on site once a week so I don't know how long exactly it looked like that, my guess would be not long based on how fast it happened), adjusted the heads and poured on the water. it fully recovered.

I'd also say I've seen other areas in similar condition not fully recover - not complete death but noticable thinning. Seems to depend on how hot it gets, how much traffic and how long it stays like that without water.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

stevenbowman said:


> Hi guys, i've attached a couple of pics of a 70% tall fescue lawn that i treat here in Switzerland. The owner through no fault of her own bought a robot mower that has a maximum height of cut of 2cm. This is one of the only lawns that i treat that i have not seen disease on this year. Food for thought! ....although it could be that the has a more favorable microclimate i could well be worth doing some experinenting on your side of the pond


I know everyone is on the 4" craze with fescue, but I actually recommend and practice cutting short in the summer(2.5"). It helps with air circulation through the canopy thus reducing disease problems. Looks better too imo. Long grass tends to stay damp for a long time.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

PokeGrande said:


> But KBG is not all that shade tolerant, correct? I'm in the transition zone and can grow TTTF fairly well in the shade but I was under the impression KBG would not fair too well in this particular condition.
> 
> I think @georgiadad is growing KBG south of the transition zone but I'm assuming it's in sun/mostly sun?
> 
> Or did your statement assume lawns in sunny or mostly sunny areas?


If you have shade there's KBG cultivars that are better adapted to that. It depends on the area you're in too - shade is an advantage during summer in the southern part of the transition zone. I seeded the strip along the driveway with Midnight last year and let it go during summer to see what happens. It crisped up exactly to the line where shade falls from the tree line, and from there on it's thick green bluegrass. Same grass, same water, same strip.

I think another big advantage with KBG over fescue is that it's a lot more cold tolerant. Last winter we had very low temps - below 10 degrees - for a couple of weeks and all my fescue went brown. I've never seen that happen before, probably because I haven't seen it get that cold since I moved to NC. The bluegrass stayed green and continued to grow. That's another thing about bluegrass this far south - the winters are mild and it's cold hardy, so the growing season is September through July. For the past two years I spent a portion of January 1st mowing.

IMHO, if you already maintain a high quality fescue lawn KBG is no more cumbersome than the fescue, and has a lot of added advantages - spreading, brown patch resistance, increased cold tolerance. For the average transition zone lawn with low/average input and heavy summer dormancy, fescue is a better choice as it can be re-seeded and re-established much easier in the fall.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> I guess the question in my mind is, is fescue even worth it. You can grow KBG with the same amount of effort anywhere you can grow fescue


I wish this was true. KBG won't survive where I am. You'd have to use a fungicide every month and baby the grass. It's too humid. Fescue, Bermuda, and Zoysia are about all that will survive.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Still learnin said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > I guess the question in my mind is, is fescue even worth it. You can grow KBG with the same amount of effort anywhere you can grow fescue
> ...


Isn't it called KENTUCKY bluegrass??

I grow KBG in NC with very limited fungal issues, actually I have more fungal issues with the TTTF. I've never had luck with zoysia (tried 2x in Raleigh before moving), I had massive amounts of winter kill. Now I have a neighbor who has a very nice Zoysia lawn.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> > But KBG is not all that shade tolerant, correct? I'm in the transition zone and can grow TTTF fairly well in the shade but I was under the impression KBG would not fair too well in this particular condition.
> ...


You can definitely see the distinct afternoon sun/shade line here (TF/TTTF/HBG mix lawn). The somewhat green clumps in the brown area are the KY-31.

Jul 17


Aug 9 after several days of rainfall


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Powhatan said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > PokeGrande said:
> ...


What cultivar of HBG? I have SPF30 in my lawn. Any chance of a close-up pic? My HBG seems to predominate in the HBG/TTTF mix.

Also, I thought this was @ken-n-nancy's lawn at first.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> What cultivar of HBG? I have SPF30 in my lawn. Any chance of a close-up pic? My HBG seems to predominate in the HBG/TTTF mix.
> 
> Also, I thought this was @ken-n-nancy's lawn at first.


SPF 30 and Fahreheit 90.



@probasestealer this closeup? I've got photos of other area closeups.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Powhatan thanks.

Here is a close-up of mine, ignore the blade that needs to be sharpened (hoping to get around to that).


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

@probasestealer Here's a pic taken Jun 10. Has all the TF/TTTF/HBG varieties in it. The skinny emerald green blades are what I believe to be the HBG.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Powhatan I think you are right, I see the HBG. Mine has a very small amount of NuGlade mixed in, which I think I can see when I blow my picture up. It looks like your TTTF has faired much better than mine. My pic was taken about 2 weeks ago.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> > But KBG is not all that shade tolerant, correct? I'm in the transition zone and can grow TTTF fairly well in the shade but I was under the impression KBG would not fair too well in this particular condition.
> ...


I have TTTF in my front yard, KBG in my side yard, and soon to be in my backyard, and I agree with the above.

I'll also second that a little shade goes a long way in transition zone summers. My TTTF that gets some shade is beautiful and the part that gets all day full south facing sun gets stressed the most and is most prone to disease. My KBG gets varying degrees of shade and does well.

As far as TTTF coming back from dormancy, I have one small ~2' x 2' area in my yard where a tree used to be and the stump wasn't ground all the way so the soil is shallow. The TTTF went dormant there late last spring/early summer and wouldn't come back no matter how much I watered it. I was shocked that it came back to life late last fall and was completely full by this spring. It's again nearly all brown and dead looking this summer. I don't have good pics because frankly I try to avoid that spot in pics, but I'll take some this summer, this fall, and next spring to document it and see if it does the same this year and to what degree it comes back.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

STL said:


> As far as TTTF coming back from dormancy, I have one small ~2' x 2' area in my yard where a tree used to be and the stump wasn't ground all the way so the soil is shallow. The TTTF went dormant there late last spring/early summer and wouldn't come back no matter how much I watered it. I was shocked that it came back to life late last fall and was completely full by this spring. It's again nearly all brown and dead looking this summer. I don't have good pics because frankly I try to avoid that spot in pics, but I'll take some this summer, this fall, and next spring to document it and see if it does the same this year and to what degree it comes back.


I've had the same happen to fine fescue....it didn't totally recover by Fall, but it did the next Spring. Must be something about the overwintering process stimulating growth, or Fall fertilizer maybe.

As far as cold, I've never had Tall Fescue damaged by cold that I know of, and it gets cold here in Winter. Brown, yes, but KBG does that too, once you get below about 32 degrees consistently. Snow mold damage or damage from traffic or water freezing and melting, yes...but not cold on its own. Ryegrass is a different story...I've had it thin out due to below 0 temps without snow.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

...which makes me wonder, when is cool season grass that was brown in the Summer supposed to turn green again if it's goong to recover? How long is it supposed to take, and how much do temps need to decrease?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Green said:


> STL said:
> 
> 
> > As far as TTTF coming back from dormancy, I have one small ~2' x 2' area in my yard where a tree used to be and the stump wasn't ground all the way so the soil is shallow. The TTTF went dormant there late last spring/early summer and wouldn't come back no matter how much I watered it. I was shocked that it came back to life late last fall and was completely full by this spring. It's again nearly all brown and dead looking this summer. I don't have good pics because frankly I try to avoid that spot in pics, but I'll take some this summer, this fall, and next spring to document it and see if it does the same this year and to what degree it comes back.
> ...


So, in looking for a different picture on my phone, I came across some of that spot I was talking about.

Here, according to my phone's time stamp, is October 16:


Second pic is the following April 26 and the area is in the left corner a few feet from where the driveway and sidewalk meet:


Here it is as of right now, August 26:


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> Also, I thought this was @ken-n-nancy's lawn at first.


 Yes, that does look a fair bit like our lawn, with the combination of mature trees / wood line right up to the lawn quite close around the house (maybe only about 30' of grass between the house and the woods), and a slate blue-ish house, too!

I need to get a thread going for our in-progress renovation tasks this fall -- too many things to do to post the level of detail we like, though!


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## stevenbowman (Aug 16, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> stevenbowman said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys, i've attached a couple of pics of a 70% tall fescue lawn that i treat here in Switzerland. The owner through no fault of her own bought a robot mower that has a maximum height of cut of 2cm. This is one of the only lawns that i treat that i have not seen disease on this year. Food for thought! ....although it could be that the has a more favorable microclimate i could well be worth doing some experinenting on your side of the pond
> ...


100% agree. Here everyone has an obbsession with planting hedges round their properties. We get stormy afternoons and nights and no air circulation even when it's windy. I think the only feasable way of getting things to dry out quicker is to cut short.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@Green /others
The original post about Bullseye being surpassed by a better cultivar got me thinking: I know that some people study the lineage of cultivars. I've seen information like this especially for KBG.

But there must be similar information for TTTF. I've spoken with seed distributors who seem fully informed about which cultivars are being 'replaced' and what they are being replaced with.
Where does one find this information? Is there some kind of reference book that provides detailed information on past and forthcoming cultivar characteristics and history?


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## sicride (Nov 8, 2017)

Powhatan said:


> SPF 30 and Fahreheit 90.


Where did you find this seed Powhatan? I'm from the same area over by the airport so it's probably not too far for me to go. I found some Southern Belle last year at Pleasants Hardware near Laburnum but they don't have any this year nor did they have anything with KBG.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

sicride said:


> Powhatan said:
> 
> 
> > SPF 30 and Fahreheit 90.
> ...


@sicride I got it from Turf & Garden in Grafton, Va last summer. I haven't checked stock this year. I plan to mix some more with KY-31 sometime in the future when I overseed the whole yard.

https://www.turfandgardeninc.com/grafton-va


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

g-man said:


> My tttf is looking pretty good at 3/4in. But I don't like that it can't spread like kbg (or the wide blades). Eventually CRISPR will get us to better cultivars.


Is that 3/4" or 3-4"? If 3/4", doesn't that contradict the best practice of keeping it longer in the summer for drought tolerance, weed suppression, etc...?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I mowed my Nomix yard at 1.5in last year on rotary. This year I switched to a reel and went to 1in and then 0.75in.

Based on my research and my own experimentation, I dont use more water with a shorter mowed lawn (less leaf length + more density = less ETo). Prodiamine works the same for weed prevention.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

social port said:


> Green /others
> The original post about Bullseye being surpassed by a better cultivar got me thinking: I know that some people study the lineage of cultivars. I've seen information like this especially for KBG.
> 
> But there must be similar information for TTTF. I've spoken with seed distributors who seem fully informed about which cultivars are being 'replaced' and what they are being replaced with.
> Where does one find this information? Is there some kind of reference book that provides detailed information on past and forthcoming cultivar characteristics and history?


Interesting questions. I think one of our best sources are probably people like Bob Hogan when it comes to this sort of thing. I suppose you could ask him that question next time you order, or send an email. Speaking of which, I ordered some Bullseye seed last year from them. There seemed to be no real problem with availability then, though Stephen wasn't positive that it would remain available indefinitely.

Another thing I've been wondering, is you know that lib.msu site that comes up in google results? I wonder if there's an index or way of searching all the articles on it from outside the university.

Finally, I am planning to experiment with TTTF seed produced on the plants in rough areas to see if the seed is viable. I'm not sure if it stays on the plants long enough. That said, if I do get something from it, it will basically be like a random cultivar, from what I understand. This could possibly explain some of the wide blade behavior I've been seeing...if the seeds stay on long enough when PGR is used, for instance, and then get planted into the soil, the plant that results might have a random set of traits.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Green said:


> I suppose you could ask him that question next time you order, or send an email.


I may do that. I would love a sourcebook for reading about cultivars.



Green said:


> Another thing I've been wondering, is you know that lib.msu site that comes up in google results? I wonder if there's an index or way of searching all the articles on it from outside the university.


No, I'm not familiar with that. But I use google scholar for searching for scientific papers when I am not at a library. It is not uncommon to find full-text PDFs for articles--even without having university access.

I'm being lazy, though, in hoping for a sourcebook, as searching and sifting through all of that information myself strikes me as a project I don't want to take on right now.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

social port said:


> @Green /others
> The original post about Bullseye being surpassed by a better cultivar got me thinking: I know that some people study the lineage of cultivars. I've seen information like this especially for KBG.
> 
> But there must be similar information for TTTF. I've spoken with seed distributors who seem fully informed about which cultivars are being 'replaced' and what they are being replaced with.
> Where does one find this information? Is there some kind of reference book that provides detailed information on past and forthcoming cultivar characteristics and history?


I wonder how much of this is marketing or pseudoscience?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > @Green /others
> ...


That's why we have tests like NTEP!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > @Green /others
> ...


Yes, that is a concern that I have as well, especially when reading through cultivar information on seed websites. I always treat that information with caution. The NTEP studies offer some stabilization for some of the shaky information out there, but ASAIK, those reports do not include information on the origins of the cultivars (e.g., "new this year is entry AFFB400057, a pairing of Bullseye and Hot Rod" --as a fabricated example). In addition, although I certainly value having hard numbers to make comparisons, I also like elaborate descriptions of what each cultivar was designed for and/or is know for.
Perhaps information like this does not exist; I suppose that there are only so many ways to say that the cultivar was designed for increased disease resistance and drought tolerance, etc.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

social port said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > social port said:
> ...


Yes, take the seed producers' descriptions with a big grain of salt. I've seen situations where the growers noticed something about a small sample of growing grass and started touting it as a trait. Maybe it's real and maybe it's not but with that level of testing, nobody knows.

Although not perfect, NTEP is the best standard we have. Any others out there?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Although not perfect, NTEP is the best standard we have. Any others out there?


I like @j4c11's _Annual report on cool season turf types in the NC region_
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=657&p=12151&hilit=bullseye+color+traverse#p12151
:lol: 
But seriously, I do very much value information like this and always carefully read what others are observing about different cultivars in their own yards. I use it to torture myself a little bit when choosing seed.

I've never even heard of a project comparable to NTEP. Now that you mention it, it seems to me that there _should be_ more than one ship at sea exploring the question of best performers etc.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Green the NTEP can be helpful but won't always contain all the information you are looking for. What it does provide is usually very helpful, I will give you that. I think this often times adds to the confusion and many people are going to take the seed manufacturer's or the sales rep word over what the NTEP shows. Ever called Bob Hogan, I think he means well, but everything he tells you is anecdotal and not scientific. Isn't it great to read a color pdf from the seller that touts the magnificent traits and the cherry picking of the data compared to many tried and true cultivars?

It's human to look for the next great thing, I'm guilty of it.


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