# I'd like some help killing moss & planting tall fescue grass from seed.



## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I live in southern California, so our temps have been lows of 55-65 and highs of 75-90 here in the end of January with only a few days a little cooler. 
Rain is sparse but I can program my sprinklers to run up to 3 times on any day or even less than daily.
I've had some moss grow in a few areas & crowd out my Tall Fescue grass and grow in a few dirt beds around bushes that I never plant anything in.
I recently turned up all of the moss everywhere to hopefully de-root it to kill it and I stopped the sprinklers for a week. 
Can I have some personal advice by someone with experience doing what I'm trying to do to stop the moss & then to get new Tall Fescue grass growing from seed?
I've previously tried what I'd read of spraying the torn-up moss with a mixture of white vinegar, liquid soap, salt & water. That also seems to kill any grass that's still growing amongst the moss. I could either spray more carefully or I could just go ahead and kill off the few clumps of grass in those areas and start over.
Most of my yard still has great looking grass, at least when it is growing season. Right now it's not as dark green as it gets in the summer.
So, can I have some tips in the form of a schedule, maybe even with dates, and not just a link to a site that could teach me?
I'm just a homeowner that wants a healthy lawn & I don't really want this to be my hobby. 😉
Thanks for any time that you give me. I really appreciate it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I forgot to show you the healthy part of the tiny front lawn. Here it is! This PIC was taken in the summer when the grass is happy. It takes me about 15 minutes to push mow the whole front & backyard with my 21" Yardman mower even including emptying the bag of grass clippings when I'm all done. ;-)
That mossy section that is in the last lawn PIC in my Question is what's in the tree's shade up by the house in this PIC. I don't know why the ground stays moist there since I've had my sprinklers OFF for 5 days to dry the soil out. The timer must need a Reset since it must be running but I've never noticed it running or having run recently with a wet sidewalk. HMMM


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Moss is usually an indicator of low ph, excess moisture, and shade. If you don't change it's current environment, it'll always come back regardless of how many times you remove or kill it.

I would recommend a soil test to check the ph and then adjust any deficiencies as needed. To save any grass, try only spraying soapy water or use a high iron content product like "moss out" available at the local home store. Usually it's granular but some are hose end sprayers. But without any other changes, It'll come back. Once you do the correction, seed and get some new grass growing.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

If you want to kill the moss easily use a product that contains Ferrous Sulfate. If you want you can just buy this a raw powder and mix it with water and spray on the moss. I have bought it through amazon. It will very quickly turn the moss black and it will die (within days). It will also green up your grass in the process. I use it as a way to green my grass in the mid summer months without applying fertilzer..

Cheers!


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks to both of you!! Man am I jazzed to learn this. It seems like I can do it now. Here I was getting really worried about what I could do since I've tried & failed a few times to mix up my own solution that I mentioned in my Question.
I Googled "ferrous sulfate moss" and came up with lots of stuff to help me. I'd never heard of that stuff. I can buy some iron sulfate and some lime. I read that spreading some lime will raise the soil's pH. I think I'd need to spread about 5lbs/1,000sf so maybe 30lbs will do it. My front & back yards are so little that I just use a hand-held spreader for granular stuff like I think the lime is. I have a little hand-held pump sprayer that I can mix up batches of the ferrous sulfate in
This page talks about using ferrous sulfate: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-ferrous-sulfate-lawns-83484.html
This page talks about using raising soil's pH using lime or potassium carbonate: www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/soil-ph


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> Thanks to both of you!! Man am I jazzed to learn this. It seems like I can do it now. Here I was getting really worried about what I could do since I've tried & failed a few times to mix up my own solution that I mentioned in my Question.
> I Googled "ferrous sulfate moss" and came up with lots of stuff to help me. I'd never heard of that stuff. I can buy some iron sulfate and some lime. I read that spreading some lime will raise the soil's pH. I think I'd need to spread about 5lbs/1,000sf so maybe 30lbs will do it. My front & back yards are so little that I just use a hand-held spreader for granular stuff like I think the lime is. I have a little hand-held pump sprayer that I can mix up batches of the ferrous sulfate in
> This page talks about using ferrous sulfate: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-ferrous-sulfate-lawns-83484.html
> This page talks about using raising soil's pH using lime or potassium carbonate: www.smart-fertilizer.com/articles/soil-ph


Glad to share the information...... It is very easy to apply the ferrous sulfate. Just a few words of advice: Ferrous Sulfate will stain things orange/brown so be careful not to spray your sidewalks, home, dog, wife etc.... Wear clothes you don't care much about.

It will green up the grass to if this grass is growing (not dormant). Too much however, will turn the grass a grey even black color.. It will not kill the grass, but might take a week or two to start to look normal.. So I would start with a lighter application as you can always hit it again and again..

Buy a 5 gallon pail (Homer Bucket) for mixing it up before putting it in your spayer. With powder there is some residual that does not dissolve and you do not want that in your sprayer.

Cheers and good luck!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ ferrous sulfate is iron. It make iron stains. The concrete is very easy to stain. Just be careful with it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> A soil test to check the pH and then adjust any deficiencies as needed. To save any grass, try only spraying soapy water or use a high iron content product like "Moss Out" available at the local home store. Usually it's granular but some are hose end sprayers. But without any other changes, It'll come back. Once you do the correction, seed and get some new grass growing.


How do I do a soil test to check the pH?
That hose end sprayer thing sounds good since as you'll see in another Reply I just did, my hand pump sprayer is a tiny 48 fl oz thing and I was told that powdered stuff doesn't always dissolve so it might clog up the sprayer.
I'll look for a hose end deal on Amazon.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > A soil test to check the pH and then adjust any deficiencies as needed. To save any grass, try only spraying soapy water or use a high iron content product like "Moss Out" available at the local home store. Usually it's granular but some are hose end sprayers. But without any other changes, It'll come back. Once you do the correction, seed and get some new grass growing.
> ...


I would just invest in a small 1 gallon pump sprayer.. These can be had for less than $20. If you mix the product in another bucket and transfer to the pump sprayer you won't have any issues with clogging. Hose end sprayer is hard to regulate and you really don't need much of this stuff...

This is what I have purchased for lawn green up, but it will work well to kill the moss.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B007ODUNJ4/ref=psdc_3752891_t1_B007ODUI76


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks. I have 3 quick questions on using iron sulfate:
1. Will overspray hurt bush leaves?
2. Can it discolor things like my house's paint or the A/C unit? Of course, I'll be careful.
3. Can fertilizer or anything else be used instead of lime to help the soil after killing the moss with iron sulfate?
I'm ordering from Amazon some iron sulfate, a 1 gallon sprayer & lime if I really need some after I hear back.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@vankjeff They should sell lime at lowes or home depot. $5 for 40 lbs usually.

The hose end I had in mind was something like this. Just connect the hose and spray. No mixing, no buying a separate sprayer.

Check out the link below for soil testing. In that post, see the link for how to sample. You can use a company like waypoint, also in the soil testing post. Once complete, post it here for feedback and guidance on what to do. Not only will this help you correct the conditions aiding moss growth but you'll also make the grass much happier, thicker, and greener.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @vankjeff They should sell lime at lowes or home depot. $5 for 40 lbs usually.
> 
> The hose-end I had in mind was something like this. Just connect the hose and spray. No mixing, no buying a separate sprayer.
> 
> Check out the link below for soil testing. In that post, see the link for how to sample. You can use a company like waypoint, also in the soil testing post. Once complete, post it here for feedback and guidance on what to do. Not only will this help you correct the conditions aiding moss growth but you'll also make the grass much happier, thicker, and greener.


Someone else has said here not to mess with a hose-end sprayer. Should I or shouldn't I? I want to get going on this.
As far as if I end up using a hose-end sprayer, wouldn't that be a little trickier to control where it sprays than it would be with a little pump sprayer and since my yard is so small, maybe the pump sprayer is the better way to go? 
Does a hose-end sprayer have an ON/OFF trigger? Why not just spray a little with a pump sprayer or am I confusing spraying the iron sulfate and the iron? I bet I am. I'm getting confused again. 
Also, on the lime that increases the soil's pH, here's 6lbs for $13 at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/B01N94B724/?coliid=I3CSJF825KIOWB&colid=2JLG5MQI22DV4&psc=0&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it 
Would I really need anymore than that on this tiny yard if I can fix the watering issue to keep the moss from growing back. It does seem to always be damp where the moss wants to grow. Maybe those mossy spots in the lawn are also getting sprinkled by the bed sprinklers so they're being drenched too often and I hadn't counted that into my watering scheduling on the timer?
One more dumbo question, since I know nothing about soil pH level, can just fertilizing it fix the pH level after using iron sulfate to kill the moss or do I need to use that lime stuff?
Finally, I think you forgot the link for having soil pH tested.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

If you get liquid iron you can use a hose end sprayer. I would still not on the size property you have, but others may disagree. If you get the powder I linked you to, then you should premix in a pail and use a pump sprayer. You can wipe the iron of painted things like your A/C. Brick and stuff like that has pores will stain.. It is not something to worry about, just be careful.

I think the lime you posted is some hippie high priced garden lime. You can go much simpler. Google the words below and you will see links to Home Depot and Lowe's. Costs less than $5 per bag.

Google: Timberline Soil Doctor Pulverized Garden Lime 40-lb

You cannot fertilize yourself to higher soil pH, however if you correct the pH issue, then fertilizers you use will work better.

Cheers


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ferrous sulfate = iron sulfate = iron. All the same. Apply whichever iron source or moss killer suits you. They should all work just fine. The hose end sprayers have a trigger so you can use as much or little as you need. A pump sprayer would be fine also. I wasn't sure how many products and supplies you were trying to invest in especially since your lawn is so small so I suggested a 1 bottle/1 product solution.

The reason for a soil test is that they tell you your current ph and how much lime to use to change it. If you put down an arbitrary amount, it might be too much. It's easier to raise it with more lime but if you go over, it's hard to lower it. Soil testing.

Definitely correct any excess moisture from sprinklers. Adjust and aim bed sprinklers to avoid grass. The grass should have time to dry out so it's not always wet.

As others have said, fertilizer doesn't do much to change ph if any. There are some exceptions but they don't make big changes without putting down way too much fertilizer and causing damage. Lime isn't fertilizer in the sense of NPK which helps push the grass to grow.

While it's fine to purchase lime anywhere, buying it online means the shipping is built into the price. A 40lbs bag is $5 at the local home improvement store. Yes, you'll have extra but you can keep it or give it to a neighbor or craigslist it. I'm sure someone will want it. It's also less than half the price from amazon and you get way more.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Jungle Life, I'll do the soil testing somehow and figure this thing out. Thanks for that link. 
I know my mossy areas are getting too much water from the automatic sprinklers. The sprinklers for the beds also need to spray the grass some or the won't get to all of the bushes & plants in the beds.
It seems like I'm constantly adjusting the timer to see if I can make it so that the areas where moss keeps re-growing will dry out between sprinklings. For awhile they were too shaded since we hadn't pruned the trees for too long, so I was blaming that for why I would see it still moist at the end of the day here in southern California even though the sprinklers go off starting at 6am. 
But then even though I would churn up the moss and let it dry by turning off the sprinklers for a few days & then spray it with a concoction of white vinegar, liquid soap, salt and water, I just haven't ever really been able to get rid of them.
Now I've found this iron sulfate and then lime deal, I'm jazzed to see if that will work. I ordered a little of both of those on Amazon and they'll be here soon.
Here's a photo of the worst part of my front yard for moss and moisture. I've basically killed all the grass over the past 6 months messing with it. I really don't know what I'm doing but it's up to me to do it since we can't just pay someone to fix it.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I would suggest you take your soil sample first before putting down any products. You don't want to skew the test results.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> But then even though I would churn up the moss and let it dry by turning off the sprinklers for a few days & then spray it with a concoction of white vinegar, liquid soap, salt and water, I just haven't ever really been able to get rid of them.


Please keep in mind that the moss will grow (and takeover) where the conditions aren't suitable for turf to grow. The soil test will be a great resource to gain a baseline of what you're working with. The liquid soap can help as a soil conditioner, as long as it is not an anti-bacterial soap, which could harm beneficial bacteria (microbes). However, salts (except for Epsom salts in appropriate amounts for Mg supplementation) will be harmful to turf. If you applied a lot of salt, you may need to saturate the area with water to leach the salt from the soil. Gypsum and a soil conditioner with yucca may help with salt damage. Your soil test should point you in the right direction. If your soil continues to stay damp, and isn't sandy already, you may want to consider amending the soil with some Mason sand. Again, depending on soil test results.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I need to ask for some more help. I sprayed some Iron Sulfate about a month ago that was mixed in water at 4oz/gallon (maybe too heavy a dose?) using this sprayer & it did kill the moss and I'll admit that I kind of went crazy spraying it since I'd read somewhere that the soil should be "drenched" to kill moss. But now, a month later, I've got a stripe of yellowish/grey grass now with some green growing up thru it. It might just be some Iron Sulfate that's washing down towards the street from sprinkler run-off & greying it? I thought Iron Sulfate was supposed to green up any grass not make it turn grey, even my Tall Fescue grass. 
I did spread a little Weed 'n Feed on the whole lawn a few weeks ago, but that hasn't helped much at all to green that stripe up. I was also trying to kill some weeds that I'd seen starting to grow out in the yard.
Our temps here in southern California have been mostly with lows in lower 60 or higher & highs arounds 85. I've got the sprinklers timed to run every other day to let it dry enough to avoid moss growth. I do see a little bit of moss growing though again and I can't figure out why that upper part of my front yard stays so moist even though they only run in that zone for 5 minutes every-other day. I'd swear they are sneaking in a run on me somehow but I've never caught it. 
I'm worried about fixing those grey swatches. What should I do or should I just wait it out?
I got some Lime to spread around to neutralize the soil from the effects of the Iron Sulfate but I haven't spread it yet. Please tell me if I should sprinkle it as powder with my hand spreader and if that might even help my grass get greener faster.
I guess after I get this solved, then I'll need to try to get some new Tall Fescue growing with the seeds I bought. I bet that will be fun since all the moisture that will take will surely want to grow moss too. GRRR


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That product is 20% iron. Im going to assume you use 4 dry oz (weight) into 500-750sqft lawn. 0.25lb *.20 = 0.05lb of iron. 
If you used the 0.05lb of iron into 500sqft, then that is 0.10lb of Fe/ksqft. That would be high for foliar. I stay below 0.08lb of Fe/ksqft and use 0.04lb of Fe/ksqft for foliar.

One of the effects of too much iron is that the lawn turns black. Sometimes it recovers and other it just dies.

Lime will not neutralize a lawn. It will provide calcium that your soil might not need or make things worst.

Lastly, running sprinklers every other day might be part of your problem. You should setup straight edge containers (eg. empty tuna cans) and run your zone. Figure out how to long you need to run each zone (even overlapping zones) to get 3/4in of irrigation. Then only run your system around every 5-7 days and only when you start to see the signs of stress for the amount of time to delivery around 3/4in.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks g-man. This is a bit tricky for me to understand but I'm really motivated & I appreciate your help!
The 4 lb bag of Iron Sulfate says that 2 cups = 1 lb. so that must mean that since 1 cup is 8 oz. of liquid, 1 cup is also = 8 oz of powder by weight, right? 
I haven't used much of the bag of Iron.
I filled powder up to about 3-4 fluid oz in the measuring cup that came on the top of ACE Weed Killer, so I think that's 3-4 oz weight of powder too. I then put that Iron in an old antifreeze jug about .8 gallons, filled it half way with water, shook the heck out of it & then kept adding water and shaking it until it was full. Then I put 48 oz or so in my little hand-pump sprayer that has a pretty good little filter on the end of the pickup tube just in case there was any undissolved Iron in there, and I shot away in the mossy areas. It did seem to kill it in a few days. I did have some moss in a few other spots under bushes in my side & backyard, and it killed all of it. Those areas have been staying dry enough for the moss to not grow back. But not so in that area up front.
Am I getting this right?
I'm pretty darn sure that I'm not over-watering my yard & in fact the grass almost everywhere had been showing that it needed more water a few weeks ago, so I bumped the grass zones up from 2 to 5 minutes.
The sprinkler zone at the top of my front lawn that grew moss & looks to be growing some again stays wet all day where the moss grows but it gets pretty dry everyday closer to the middle of the yard. So, that tells me that it's clearly not an over-watering problem but that it is either: 
1. Poor drainage in certain areas & too much shade so that area stays damp(it's not although it is in shade but I had that tree topped & thinned a month ago) or 
2. It might be that the area up there that keeps growing moss gets sprinkled from both the bush zone sprinklers that surround that grass area AND ALSO by the grass zone sprinklers. So they'd be getting double sprinkled. The problem is though, both zones need regular watering. I suppose I could minimize the time on the bush zone sprinklers in the front yard, which are only around the mossy area or I could even cut them back to sprinkle less often, maybe only 1x or 2x a week? After all, I don't think bushes need frequent watering, right?
3. Lastly, what's this about that maybe I shouldn't spread Lime? I'd read somewhere, maybe in this thread, that I should spread Lime after using Iron Sulfate to bring the soil back to where it should be. I'm confused. Should I just take this 10 lb bag of Lime back to ACE and get my $12 back?[/list][/list]


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I'm really hoping to hear back on this. I need some help as $ is really tight and it's up to me to save my lawn. I think that realistically the sprinklers in the front yard should be replumbed to that they area up near the house isn't overwatered or maybe that area needs better drainage. For whatever reason, the top of my front yard seems to always be damp and moss wants to grow, even if I set the timer to barely ever water it. Yet, if I turn it down to too little watering, the grass in the middle of the yard that is also sprinkled by that same zone of the sprinkler timer becomes dry and grass struggles.
Your help is appreciated.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@vankjeff I'm confused with how to help. I think you should use a scale (kitchen one works but dont ask the wife).

Next, I dont know if 2min or 5min is too long or too short. You really need to do an audit on each of the areas to figure out how much. The top portion is very shaded, so it should barely need water compared with the sunny areas.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks G-man. I just hope to at least get it back to where it had been, even if it has moss. What I mean is that I want the rest of the yard to be healthy.
That zone of sprinklers that always seems damp and so it grows both hasn't always done that even with tree shade, but I did have the trees pruned and topped and that hasn't helped the area stay dry enough to not grow moss. Also, that same sprinkler zone has sprinkler just below it (closer to the mid-yard), that get rock-hard dry and the grass starts dying if I cut the timer back to too infrequently or for not long enough, or both.
It's weird that basically nothing has changed in the 20 some years since we bought this house as it was being built and we had the landscaping and sprinklers done professionally. It has never grown moss until the last year or so. That's why I've been trying to figure out what to do to fix it.
We do have earth movement since we're on the top of a hill, so perhaps the drain line for the top section of the lawn has somehow been clogged or something? I doubt it. It hasn't shifted that much and there are no signs of standing water anywhere. The moss growing is the only sign of a problem.
Heck, I'm not even aware of a drain for that upper section of the front lawn. I bet it doesn't have one since it wouldn't need one since the lawn slopes away from the house and towards the street.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I'm still fighting the moss after all this time. My plan is to try again tomorrow to either use my hand spreader to sprinkle some powdered Iron Sulfate to kill the moss or to mix it with water and spray the moss areas well with a little hand-held pump sprayer. Then after it dies & I rake it up (week?), I've heard that I should neutralize the soil by spreading pelletized Limestone to make the soil more friendly to growing grass.. 
Does that sound like a good plan? Is the Limestone even going to do anything or should I skip it?
I'll worry about growing grass after I get rid of the moss. 
I've got TruGreen doing my lawn but they don't deal with killing moss. I also don't have a plan with them that includes any Lime treatment which they do offer at an additional charge. They are going to do a free soil test in a few weeks since I asked for one, but I don't know what that will tell me. I'm no soil expert, that's for sure. &#128521;


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

It sounds like you have conditions that are better for growing moss than you do for growing turf. You've got to get those conditions fixed or it will be a never ending battle for you.

Moss likes areas that stay wet and don't dry out properly. You've got to fix your drainage issue. Do you have a downspout that is in that area? If so, route the discharge elsewhere. Are there low spots that hold water? Fix that. Does the area get little to no sun? Trim things up to let light in.

Also, you could consider making it a natural area.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks Gilley. I live in drought stricken southern California, so rain from downspouts can't be an issue. Maybe a plugged drain from the automatic sprinklers in a of the Zone that keeps growing moss is (BUT NOT IN ALL THAT KEEP GROWING MOSS!)or even a busted underground sprinkler feeder water line in that Zone (AGAIN, NOT IN ALL) is but I've never seen or found any puddling or areas showing any signs of that. 
I don't think that just letting it go natural will fix things enough since moss grows in areas that simply look stupid. In addition to the front lawn, I keep having moss grow in the unplanted bed areas around the air conditioner units on the north side of the house and outside of the lawn area in the beds under bushes & trees, primarily on the north side of them. 
So, even though I've never changed anything about where the house, a/c units or walls is and my trees are all kept pruned & topped, nothing I have done seems to stop moss growth. That's why I've come to suspecting that bad soil composition is working in conjunction with sprinkler water and partial shading to cause moss to grow.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Maybe let's simplify this. Is there anything that I can spray, sprinkle or spread onto an area of soil that will keep moss from growing there?


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> Maybe let's simplify this. Is there anything that I can spray, sprinkle or spread onto an area of soil that will keep moss from growing there?


I think you're approaching the issue from the wrong angle. Something inherently is wrong with the soil. Did you ever get a soil test? It's the baseline for addressing the issue. Without the information, you will be stabbing in the dark. At one point, you tried vinegar and salt, which both damage the soil. The pH was probably already low and the acidic vinegar just exacerbated the issue. Moss does not take over in an overwhelming way like traditional weeds. Most weeds will seed, spread by roots, etc., in soils of various conditions, typically in an active way. Moss shows up in the absence of turf, in a passive way in most instances, and is an indicator of poor soil conditions where turf refuses to grow. You obviously have a massive soil issue over a relatively large area of your lawn and beds. Please reread the whole thread, as many contributors have made excellent suggestions. It's pointless to look for a silver bullet to kill moss. If you don't perform a soil test, you might as well start over with amending the soil compost, topsoil, sand, etc. and tilling it in. The photo of soil under the shrubs near the A/C unit just looks flat out dead, from a visual perspective.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks for saying all that, especially "At one point, you tried vinegar and salt, which both damage the soil. The pH was probably already low and the acidic vinegar just exacerbated the issue."
I'd forgotten about having done that. I don't know what I'm doing at all so I'm not sure what I'll do with the soil test results that TruGreen will give me in 3-4 weeks. I don't want to miss the spring season for planting. I have a big bag of tall fescue seed which is what my lawn is. 
TruGreen says they'll do an Aeration/Topsoil/Overseeding sometime soon but I've told them to hold off on that since I need to cure my moss & soil problems first. 
I can't afford to just pay someone to fix things so that's why I'm here. 
I really appreciate the help.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I've re-read this whole thread and I see where I messed up by spraying the Salt & Vinegar onto both the moss and the grass that was still in it very early on. I must have read some bad info somewhere online or I missed reading or remembering some important info about it Vinegar killing grass or making the soil unfriendly for grass growth. 
Here's my latest plan. Please feel free to tell me anything you'd suggest I do differently, even to the extent of Copying my list & rewriting it:
1. Spray MOSS-EX to kill moss, mostly in just the areas with moss or near them. 
2. Rake dead moss in 3-5 days. Hopefully all will have died. If it hasn't, repeat step #1.
3. Spread 30 lb bag pelletized Encap Fast Acting Lime on entire 3,000 SF yard to raise pH. That will be maybe 50% too heavy but should be OK? Or use less? Costs $20 at ACE or $33 at Amazon so get at ACE since cheaper & I get right away. 
4. Get 5 bags of Topsoil for TruGreen to apply with my Tall Fescue when they overseed on 4/9. I'll have them focus on the bare spots with the seed & topsoil.
5. Set sprinklers to spray seeded areas for 10 minutes at noon & 6 PM for 4 weeks then cut back to only once for 10 minutes at 6 AM daily once new grass has sprouted & grown a little. 
6. TruGreen will test my soil near the end of March. Hopefully new grass will have started growing well by then & the pH will be found to be 6-7. I've read that most plants grow well in a pH between 6 and 7 with 6.5 to 6.8 being ideal & that below 6.0, many nutrients can't be absorbed.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Do you have a soil test ? Adding lime can cause more problems than fix items. If you continue to add it, follow the label. You can kill your grass if you over do it.

I think you still have the same problem you had last year. You need to measure how much water you are applying in those areas. 10min twice a day can be too much and bring you more moss.

From the images the areas that look bad are surrounded by tress, shrubs and walls. Those bring shade that then leads to moist areas and more moss.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks for giving me more help. I really appreciate it. As I'd said, TruGreen won't be doing their free soil test for a month. That's the soonest I can get them to do it. I was disappointed to learn that.
Could I just test it somewhere else or are there cheap soil test kits I could buy at ACE Hardware or somewhere like that?
I'm confused about why you said about lime, "if you continue to add it". I haven't ever added any lime yet, ever. I was only going to spread some lime in the future since I'd been told it needed to be done to neutralize the effects of killing moss & to raise the pH level of the soil so grass could be grown. Is that wrong?
I was only saying sprinkling twice daily for 10 minutes in the very beginning (month?) to get new grass growing. Isn't that necessary? After that I said I'd cut it back but I don't know how much. 
I've lived here since 1993 and have always had this same inground sprinkler system & I never had moss anywhere, not even in the plain dirt beds beside the house by the a/c units that is totally shaded by this 2-story house. Our landscaper crew had no access to the sprinkler timer so it ran however many minutes it was set for in each of the 6 sections, all year long. No moss, ever, for 25 years until 2019.
So in my mind, only chemistry changes could have made moss grow. No?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I think that it's time for me to stop guessing at fixes & to just ask for a step-by-step plan. Could I please have one in a list like the one I tried putting together yesterday? 
Please remember that I don't know much about all this stuff. I sure don't know how to test soil. Even though TruGreen is supposed to do one later this month, I won't know what it can tell me to do. 
Also, I don't think I should wait that long since I think my grass seed will have a better chance of starting if I plant it sooner before the days get too warm here in southern California. 
I do have a 48 oz hand-held sprayer & a hand-held fertilizer spreader. Both are probably big enough since my yard is so small and the moss areas are tiny or in odd areas that a hand-held would be easier to use on. 
If spraying MossEx from a jug that a hose attaches to is part of the plan, I do have a hose that is plenty long to reach the mossy area. I've used it before to connect to a container of MossEx to spray those areas.
My memory is that the MossEx didn't work so I returned what was left to ACE & they gave me a refund.
I'd be OK mixing & spraying Iron Sulfate or Iron PLUS Soil Acidifier instead of MossEx. I tried the Sulfate last month & it did seem to work some although I'm not sure I mixed it to the correct % and applied it properly either.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Can I please have a little more help? I'm sorry if I've said anything wrong or let this go on too long.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Jeff, it is really hard to track all you are wanting to do. I'm lost and I think I will give you bad advise. If you want to fix the moss, you need to ensure the area is not staying moist. I would start there.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> Jeff, it is really hard to track all you are wanting to do. I'm lost and I think I will give you bad advise. If you want to fix the moss, you need to ensure the area is not staying moist. I would start there.


OK thanks. Since the moss isn't just in the front yard that's shaded most of the day, I'll check to make sure that the areas by the a/c and in the back under the bushes aren't staying wet all day. 
I guess the sprinkler timer could be messing up but I've tried doing some total RESETS this past year and also I've never noticed them running when they're not supposed to or seen any wet sidewalks or driveway when I shouldn't, so it must work ok. 
We replaced it a few years ago.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I just set the timer so the 3 grass area Zones are at 5 minutes all 7 days. They'd all been on 10 minutes for some dumb reason that I forget.
The 3 bed area Zones are all 2 minutes to run Mon, Weds & Sat.
The bed & grass Zone sprays do overlap in the front & backyards but the beds by the a/c units have no grass near them. 
So I'll check those for moisture specifically tomorrow late afternoon since the sprinklers run at 6am. I guess since tomorrow is Tuesday, none of the bed sprinklers went but those areas near grass still will get some sprinkling.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This is what I wrote you in Apr2019:



g-man said:


> Lastly, running sprinklers every other day might be part of your problem. You should setup straight edge containers (eg. empty tuna cans) and run your zone. Figure out how to long you need to run each zone (even overlapping zones) to get 3/4in of irrigation. Then only run your system around every 5-7 days and only when you start to see the signs of stress for the amount of time to delivery around 3/4in.


Do not water your lawn daily. It causes more problems with fungus, shallow roots and maybe your moss. You need to measure how much water the 5min or 10min are giving you in those zones.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> This is what I wrote you in Apr2019:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'll get on this tomorrow. It rained off & on today so I put the timer on a 3-day Rain Delay. But I have a few questions about what you said:
1. Where do I put the can to measure water? Where the bed & lawn Zones overlap, I'd assume that I don't want to measure the water delivered in any those places?
2. Is 3/4" of water only every 5-7 days enough even here in sunny southern California? It's pretty arid here. I thought I'd tried that a long time ago, maybe in this thread, and my lawn started to look like it needed more water.
3. I never did the can measuring back then. I'm bad. I'm not lazy but I just don't know where to put the cans. Don't those inground sprinklers vary how much water for different spots in their spray pattern that it would matter where you put the can?
4. When you say "Then only run your system around every 5-7 days and only when you start to see the signs of stress for the amount of time to delivery around 3/4in.", what do you mean by saying "see the signs of stress for the amount of time to delivery around 3/4in."? I can't really figure out what you're trying to say. Maybe it's me but can you say it differently?
5. Lastly, and this wasn't addressed in your reply since I've never asked, I only have really old bushes in all of my beds, so do they really need much watering or could I basically leave them all at 1-2 minutes and let the overspray from the grass areas sink down to the roots to water them? Then I could just set the Zone by the a/c units to 1-2 also if that might give enough water to get down to the roots and not let any moss grow.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

@vankjeff check out these videos for ideas on measuring water output to different areas:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

1. See Gilley YT videos above. Thanks @TommyTester for making those videos
2. With a zipcode I can give you closer numbers. In the peak of summer you might need to do 0.5in every 2-3 days. You have TTTF, so I am assuming it will not get that hot.
3. Multiple cans in multiple places.
4. You look at the lawn. If it is green, then it doesnt need water. Look for the lawn to start to look like a green-gray color. That means you need to water it the next morning. If it turned brown, you missed the watering by a few days. Find the pattern that keeps the lawn between green and green-gray.
5. We dont know how much water 1 minute is. Most shrubs only need a weekly watering. If the top part of the mulch bed is staying moist, then it needs less frequency.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks. I'd never thought of using more than 1 can, but using many cans spread out in a pattern makes sense. I'm not sure what to do if the cans in a Zone don't fill at pretty similar rates. 
I don't know what I'll use. We don't use anything often that comes in cans with straight sides or cans at all. No plastic containers either & those usually have tapered sides. 
If I need to use tapered plastic cups, I know how to calculate the equivalent water collection to a straight sided cup. A plastic cup won't be quite as stable sitting out in the grass as a can could be, but even a can will be odd sitting on grass as it is filled . 
I really didn't see anything in either video that would help me. Did I miss something?
Could you please still give me a quick answer for each of my 5 questions in my last reply?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> 1. See Gilley YT videos above. Thanks @TommyTester for making those videos
> 2. With a zipcode I can give you closer numbers. In the peak of summer you might need to do 0.5in every 2-3 days. You have TTTF, so I am assuming it will not get that hot.
> 3. Multiple cans in multiple places.
> 4. You look at the lawn. If it is green, then it doesnt need water. Look for the lawn to start to look like a green-gray color. That means you need to water it the next morning. If it turned brown, you missed the watering by a few days. Find the pattern that keeps the lawn between green and green-gray.
> 5. We dont know how much water 1 minute is. Most shrubs only need a weekly watering. If the top part of the mulch bed is staying moist, then it needs less frequency.


Thanks g-Man. 
1. As I've said, I'm not sure what I was supposed to see in those videos as far as setting up timer days & minutes for each zone. What did I miss?
2. I live in the city of Orange which is next to Anaheim, 16 miles north of the ocean. Zip is 92867. What the heck is TTTF?
3. I said in my other reply that I'll need to deal with using something other than cans. 
4. Surely I won't need to always be out looking at grass color to see if I should adjust the sprinkler schedule or Time Run setting. I've never done that in the 27 years we've lived here & our lawn care guy hasn't without my knowing since the controller is locked up in the garage. My lawn has always been healthy as heck until last year when I noticed the first moss & I'm sure my old lawn guy, Alfredo, was no TruGreen type expert. 
5. For the old bushes that are in dirt beds (no mulch), my real question was that if they are within a couple feet of the grass, won't the grass Zone sprinkler probably give them plenty water so I could now set the bush Zone sprinkler to 0 or to very minimal watering 1x a week? Then I should only make sure the bushes by the a/c units get a little water?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

1) use any container. A pot from the kitchen, a coffee mug, a small trash can, glass jar, anything. Run the system for 10 and then measure how many inches of water it has. Repeat at multiple locations to see how even it is.

2) I did a quick search. This is the closest I could find to you (a bit south so warmer). https://www.smwd.com/172/Daily-ET-Data-for-SMWD I see an ET0 of around 0.15. This means that your lawn is using around 0.12in of water per day. An application of 0.5in of irrigation should last you 4-5 days.

TTTF = Turf Type Tall Fescue.

3) any container, 
4) what does Alfredo think of the moss issue?
5) I don't know how much water your bushes need.


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## Kallgren (Nov 10, 2018)

"I'm not sure what to do if the cans in a Zone don't fill at pretty similar rates. "

I am no expert but at this point - You are collecting data, not necessarily a solution.

"I don't know what I'll use. We don't use anything often that comes in cans with straight sides or cans at all. No plastic containers either & those usually have tapered sides. 
If I need to use tapered plastic cups, I know how to calculate the equivalent water collection to a straight sided cup. A plastic cup won't be quite as stable sitting out in the grass as a can could be, but even a can will be odd sitting on grass as it is filled ."

I believe the intent is to establish the relative amount of water distributed to different areas of your lawn. While an absolute value is great (e.g. tuna can), a calculated value (e.g. plastic cup) mapped over the area is helpful.

TTTF is an acronym for the type of grass you list in your signature line.

Regarding your old bushes - I would suggest the same strategy above of placing you cans or cups or whatever to capture your water distribution.

Yes you should capture zones which overlap, it is total water on the specific area of interest.

Roots are best grown deep, frequent shallow watering do not encourage deep root growth.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I've figured out why I've missed some of your many Replies here. It's since as you see in this PrintScreen of the emailed Notification, this site won't send out another Notification if I haven't yet clicked on the one that was sent when someone else Replied. So, I didn't know that and I always just scroll all the way down and see the last Reply since for some reason, this forum site also doesn't actually take you to the actual Reply in the link but rather just to the top of the page of 10 Replies that the newest one is on. So, then you need to scroll down to it. That means that I've always been missing any that were sent before that last one since I would just scroll down to the bottom & I never saw anything unless I somehow noticed it as I scrolled, which never happened.
There should be an email Notification sent out for every Reply and the link in the email should take you to that specific Reply if that's possible. Having what was said in email would also make sure a User didn't miss anything or think they'd seen that before.
This should really be fixed by the site's publisher or an administrator so if anyone here knows someone in that position, please tell them this. 
The Microsoft Answers site's email Notification of Replies actually have the text of what was said written into the Notification email and ALL Replies create Notifications.
Here's a PrintScreen of one of those:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@vankjeff we use a standard open source forum software. We don't have Microsoft budget. I did notified the administrator of your request.

You do have the option of clicking the wrench icon (on mobile) and subscribing to this thread. The system will then email you every single time someone post to it.

Did you find a kitchen pot (don't tell the wife)? How many inches of water in a 10min irrigation run?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

@vankjeff phpBB only sends one email because multiple notifications for subsequent activity within the same topic would be considered a nuisance to most users - especially if it was a very active topic.

Within the notification email for a watched topic, you are presented with several link options. If you are logged into the site, the first link should take you straight to the newest post made since your last visit. Note the "view=unread#unread" at the end of the url:



> Hello Ware,
> 
> You are receiving this notification because you are watching the topic
> "Milorganite Oklahoma" at "The Lawn Forum". This topic has received a reply
> ...


That is the exact same url format used for the green topic icons when you have unread posts within a topic. You click the green icon and it takes you to your first unread post within that topic. The black topic icons mean you have no unread posts within that topic. Again, obviously this only works if you are logged in to the site.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

When you receive an email notification for a mention, the url provided in the email contains the post number (post #241140 in the example below). Clicking that link should take you straight to that post. If it does not, it would have to have something to do with the way your browser is handling the url. It works just fine for me.



> Hello,
> 
> You were just mentioned by "FlowRider" in "Sprayer" at "The Lawn Forum".
> 
> ...


Email notifications for quoted posts are the same way. You are given several different url's in the email that will take you to the specific post number, topic, or subforum where the quote occurred:



> Hello Ware,
> 
> You are receiving this notification because "TN Hawkeye" quoted you in the
> topic "Chapin sprayer not spraying well..." at "The Lawn Forum". You can
> ...


Your notification options can be adjusted here in the User Control Panel.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks Ware but even though you gave me lots of info, the emails I get don't usually (ever?) have lines with links to "that you were Quoted in" or "that you were Mentioned in".
Mine only will say "If you want to view the newest post made since your last visit, click the following link:"
Here's a printscreen of what I see everytime (I think) and the top link is the only useful one and even though it has the *f=9&t=7359&e* in it like you'd mentioned, tapping it on my iPhone or in Outlook on my PC only brings me in the browser to the top of the page that posting is on so scroll, scroll, scroll. 
This happens on my iPhone regardless of if I have Safari or EDGE set as the default browser and it also does it on my Windows PC with EDGE. I have never seen this forum send me to the most recent Reply after clicking a link in the Notification email,
Maybe you guys are just doing a generic _*QUICK REPLY*_ at the bottom rather than to my Reply? Could that be it? It might need you to have clicked the *["] Reply with quote* button for it to actually take me to it when I click the link?

Anyway, this junk is too off topic so let's drop it. I was merely trying to help the forum's admin fix their site by giving them some User input since I know how handy that can be, being a former product manufacturer myself.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Vank, you are over thinking all of this. You have moisture issues. Your arse is staying too wet and not drying out. Poor drainage, not enough sun, over watering....it could be one of all of those.

Rake out the moss. it's the quickest way to get it gone and there's no guesswork, plus it's good exercise. After this summer, plant more fescue.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Gilley11 said:


> Vank, you are over thinking all of this. You have moisture issues. Your arse is staying too wet and not drying out. Poor drainage, not enough sun, over watering....it could be one of all of those.
> 
> Rake out the moss. it's the quickest way to get it gone and there's no guesswork, plus it's good exercise. After this summer, plant more fescue.


I would add to this in that it would be worth your money long term to choose the "right" fescue. I have a shade/water/moss issue in my backyard. I have reseeded (3) times now (and we are not talking a mild overseed, close to starting from scratch). Had I just purchased a specific item or two that is known for high shade tolerance (red creeping fescue, fine fescue, etc.), I think I could have saved myself money in the long run vs. going to Lowes and buying a bag that says Fescue on it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> Van-K, you are over-thinking all of this. You have moisture issues. Your arse is staying too wet and not drying out. Poor drainage, not enough sun, over watering....it could be one of all of those.
> Rake out the moss. It's the quickest way to get it gone and there's no guesswork, plus it's good exercise. After this summer, plant more fescue.


Are you saying I don't need any chemicals to kill the moss & that I should just rake it up?
I'm about to measure how much water is sprinkled everywhere as soon as we get a sunny day & I can mow my lawn. No more Alfredo for me. After 20+ years, he was getting too lazy to do what needed doing so he "retired" & he moved out to Palm Springs in December 2018. I took over my own lawn work. I was given a nice newer push Yardman mower.
I started my career life by creating my own big commercial & residential lawncare service in Indianapolis in 1977 to put myself thru college in night classes at IUPUI. I called it Lawnicure, Inc., a name I invented to sound like Lawn Manicure.
At most, I had 8 employees and we even mowed some big apartment complexes that took all day with two 60" Hustler ZTR mowers like this:

Riding mowers without steering wheels were a new phenomenon back then & I had one already. Mine cost me about $8,500 new I think.
But in the midwest, a lawn maintenance contractor really only needs to mow, blow & go along with maybe trim bushes & rake leaves.
Back then, Chemlawn did lots of fertilizer & weed control. Maybe they also offered aeration & overseeding but I never knew anything about that..
Chemlawn tried running a lawn maintenance division in Indianapolis for a few years too but decided it wasn't for them.
I bought that whole division out in the winter after they decided it wasn't what they wanted to do. I bought all of their equipment (Hustler & Yazoo mowers, Homelite blowers, Green Machine weedeaters & more) and all of job contracts along with 4 nice, newer 1-ton Chevy trucks with nice utility bodies on them & one. One was a crew cab. 
All along, I had two 4x4 Blazers to plow driveways & small parking lots with Western Power-angling plows to earn all my winter income. I had business band radios in everything since that was just as cell phones were happening and Citizens Band radios are useless.
At first my lawn here in Orange, CA was perfect after I took over doing it in 2018 but I started noticing moss about 6 or so months later. I forget but maybe I reset the sprinkler timer and caused my problem myself? That's when I found this forum.
Yesterday, I "borrowed" a few ketchup cups from a burger 🍔 place and I used some #2 nails & some Silicone to make a dozen cups to stick in each Zone, all in one Zone at at a time, to measure the water delivery so I can figure out how many minutes each Zone needs sprinkling. 

I know these cups aren't straight edged but they are 1" tall with only slight tapers so if it fills .5", that's like .6" of waterfall.
I guess the goal will be to set the timer for each Zone to deliver about some recommended amount of water, on average, in that Zone?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, that will work. We want to figure out how long to run your system to get 0.5in.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Ware said:


> @vankjeff ........ If you are logged into the site, the first link should take you straight to the newest post made since your last visit. ..........If you are logged into the site, the first link should take you straight to the newest post........Again, obviously this only works if you are logged in to the site


I bet you've hit on the issue without realizing it & that is that if I just click on any link in the email Notification, obviously I'm probably not yet logged into the lawnforums site, unless I maybe had it logged in & running in the background. 
So all browsers that are set to Save User & Password will stop as it logs you in. At that point, this site just stops at the beginning of the Question thread with you logged in.
That's got to be the problem.
*****
I just tried leaving this browser tab open with me logged in as I went to my phone's email Inbox & I tapped the first link in the email. Unfortunately it did what it always does which is just deliver me to the top of the latest page (page 3 on this one now)


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Drewmey said:


> Gilley11 said:
> 
> 
> > Van-K, you are over-thinking all of this. You have moisture issues. Your arse is staying too wet and not drying out. Poor drainage, not enough sun, over watering....it could be one of all of those.
> ...


Thanks but no new start over for me. It's time to downsize our home. Our 2 kids graduated college recently and will move out as soon as they can afford to. So I just want to get what I've got for lawn looking like it did a year ago with happy grass & no moss.
That's why I'm going thru all of this with you guy's help.
I hired TruGreen last spring on some limited plan to see if their involvement would do me any good. So far I'm not a happy customer. I still see weeds all the time and the grass doesn't grow at the same rates. Maybe that's more to blame on the rabbits I see out there in their favorite places eating, peeing and pooping?
They don't seem to be scared of the horrible smell of the 100% Coyote Pee that I spray in a bush or 2 every now & then.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> Drewmey said:
> 
> 
> > Gilley11 said:
> ...


Well after removing the moss you will eventually need to reseed the grass. Tall Fescue does not creep. So once the moss is gone, that spot will stay dirt until you put some form of seed down. I'm simply suggesting your next reseed should be something specifically qualified to survive in high shade.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

"&#120279;&#120319;&#120306;&#120324;&#120314;&#120306;&#120326; &#120324;&#120319;&#120316;&#120321;&#120306;
Well, after removing the moss you will need to reseed the grass. Tall Fescue does not creep. So once the moss is gone, that spot will stay dirt until you put some form of seed down. I'm simply suggesting your next reseed should be something specifically qualified to survive in high shade.
_____________________

Drewmey, I have a new, unopened, really big bag of Tall Fescue Seed that I'd really like to use up. I got it at ACE over a year ago. That would be OK to use, wouldn't it?
After all, I'm sure the overwatering has been my moss problem. I'll keep my trees pruned & topped a little better. &#128521;
Some of the moss is growing in places that there's been no change in shading anyhow.
I'd been planning lately to give this seed to the TruGreen guy in a few weeks when he's here to mix with some bags of topsoil to do an overseeding with. He did the aeration last month but he said it was too early here to plant seed. I'll ask him to concentrate on putting the seed & soil where I've removed the moss.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Today I finally got around to manually running my sprinkler's Station 6 (grass near house & mid front yard) for 5 minutes after putting my measuring cups in places where moss keeps growing. The cups only ended up having about 1/4" of water in them and yet there's puddles next to a few that are deeper than that. Obviously the soil must be clay or something impenetrable but I did just have TruGreen aerate the whole yard including that area. You can see the little aeration plugs of soil there. 
The most that any cup filled in those 5 minutes was 3/8".
Then I ran the sprinkler Station 4 (beds near the house) and none of them overspray into the grass so that's not adding anything to my moss problem, at least not here in the front yard. The backyard is a whole different story as I'm sure they do overlap.
*So today I set my timer to run a 6 Stations (that's grass and bed areas) for 10 minutes every 4th day* (there's no 2X a week Setting).
But I think it's more important to try to stop moss growth in the front yard where I now know that there's no overlapping spray.
So, I think I've been told here to *sprinkle the grass & even the bush/bed Stations to wet them 1/2" only twice a week, which would be about a 10 minute run at least*, so my job is probably to first kill the moss as good as I can with either MossEX or mix up some diluted powdered Iron Sulfate to spray on it to kill it. 
How much powder do I put in my 48oz hand pump sprayer before I fill it with water? I'll shake it to mix it before it's full.
Or should I just sprinkle on some pelletized Iron Sulfate?
Then I guess I should rake the moss up after it turns black?
As far as the bush beds, including the ones on the area with only bushes (and moss) that's shaded by the 2-story house, I think I've been told here to also sprinkle those the same setting of 1/2" twice a week, which would be double the current 5 minutes but it would also be Set to only be done twice a week?
Anything I've missed here?
This picture shows how I spread my cups around and the sprinklers are ON.

See the puddle after only a 5 minute run? Why didn't it drain in thru the new aeration holes? Is the soil that compacted or all clay? Grass had been growing there fine until last summer when I killed it by spraying junk on it that I shouldn't have as I tried to kill the moss.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I wanted to make sure everyone knew that my sprinklers had been set to run way too often even if only for less than 10 minutes. So any shaded areas were probably always at least a little moist & for sure never got very dry. My bad, that's for sure. &#128078;


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That last image shows a little lake. It is getting too much water and staying there. Can you take daily pictures of that spot? Does it ever dry up? If not then you might also have a drainage/grade issue. Aeration is not going to fix this. If it is a low point, then you might need to build a trench to get the water to flow out of there.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

G-man, thanks but as I'd said, that photo was taken immediately after running the sprinklers for only 5 minutes ONCE after having placed the measurement cup there. So, why would we need "a daily photo of the spot"?
I'd also said that I've erroneously been watering all my grass areas for 5 minutes everyday of the week, which is about 1/4", and that I now know that's way too little way too often. From what I measured, I should be running the sprinklers for 10 minutes everywhere, only twice a week. 
So, even though I've changed nothing about the lawn other than using chemicals to try to kill the moss and also the trees not having been pruned or topped for about a year, this moss has taken over & can't be killed.
At the end of my last big posting I said that I'd goofed when I last mixed up some water & Iron Sulfate to spray to kill the moss & that's because I'd also added some White Distilled Vinegar into that mixture after forgetting that it also kills grass. So that killed or severely thinned the grass. But please don't forget that this happened long into the process of my trying to get rid of the moss.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ok. I was just trying to be sure your problem is solved. From the image I think I see a grade and shade leading to an area that water is pooling. If you think it is solved, then ignore what I said.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

@vankjeff , I think that it would be a good idea for you get up with someone local who can walk through your issues and be on-site to go over your property.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> @vankjeff , I think that it would be a good idea for you get up with someone local who can walk through your issues and be on-site to go over your property.


I can't afford that. Times are tough. Luckily we've held onto the house after my going on permanent disability after an MX accident & my wife losing her career corporate management job last year after decades.
I'd even just used my life savings & even re-financed our house bigtime just before that so I could build a real estate business since that was in 2007 when the real estate market was making people big money and I wanted to do it too.
That's why I've been here trying to fix things myself with your help. I can buy little stuff & I've got lots of time. 
So, can you still help me please?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> Ok. I was just trying to be sure your problem is solved. From the image I think I see a grade and shade leading to an area that water is pooling. If you think it is solved, then ignore what I said.


I obviously confused you again by my last reply. Nothing is solved. The puddle formed & still will, especially if I run the sprinklers for 10 minutes to get 1/2" instead of only for 5 minutes like I did for the test that made that puddle.
So, are you saying that even though nothing about my soil makeup or grade has changed in the 27 years we've lived here, there's no way to get the soil to absorb the sprinkler water that is put on there so slowly that I'd need to run the sprinklers for 10 minutes to get my 1/2" twice a week?
Nothing but digging channels that it's never had or needed?
Also, don't you think that this can't just be an over-shading problem since it looks to be a problem with soil that doesn't absorb water nearly fast enough or even at all?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

The problem with calling somebody to work on this for me isn't only since I can't afford much for the reasons I described in my last posting. It's also because I live in this fancy neighborhood that has 285 of these $1m+ homes where a lot of wealthy people live, so when a landscaper comes into this neighborhood they see these expensive homes and the prices go way up on the work since they think that anyone here can afford it. They never want to do a simple fix on anything. They'll want to go with some complete landscape rework and maybe sod, a new sprinklers and new drainage and all kinds of craziness. We've learned that anything that costs $500 to have done on a home down the hill will cost at least $1,000 for the same work done up in this neighborhood .


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Can I please have some more help? I'll try anything you say that I can do myself. Maybe something to get my soil to soak in my sprinkler's water better by either poking tons of little holes in it with a big screwdrivers or a gopher hole prod or maybe raking the heck out of it with a solid steel tonged rake?
OR, maybe only running the sprinklers for 3 minutes for 3x many hours apart only every 4th day since then the water would be pretty minimal and that would give it time to absorb and yet spacing it 4 days apart would give things plenty of time to dry out every time?
Here's a photo of my huge backyard. ;-)


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## Tadow781 (Oct 11, 2019)

Great Thread! Just read the whole thing.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

> Can you take daily pictures of that spot? Does it ever dry up?


My main purpose is to see how that area looks after a few days of drying time before you run the irrigation.

I have a few ideas we can try, but first let's see that area behavior.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

g-man said:


> > Can you take daily pictures of that spot? Does it ever dry up?
> 
> 
> My main purpose is to see how that area looks after a few days of drying time before you run the irrigation.
> ...


I'll do it. Thanks man. I'd have to guess that it does dry up since it won't be sprinkled but every 4th day. I'm on it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Just checking in since I've been giving you a break while I did my study & made notes & photos. With it set to only run 1/2" every 4th day, it was ALWAYS still moist in some areas so I've backed off to 1/2" once a week on Mondays. Now it's still not bone dry in the worst shaded areas but at least it's only slightly damp. 
I'll be having my trees topped & thinned asap as soon as I can afford it.
Here's my problem today. I bought some Scott's MossEX in a hose end sprayer jug & on Thursday I sprayed what I determined to be the right amount on the mossy areas based on how many sq ft it says the bottle covers & some approximate dimensions. That was on Thursday & 3 days later, today, all of the moss is all still green & healthy. 
People say this stuff works in ours or at least in a day.
What's going on? Should I just wait? Should I take this bottle back to ACE for a refund like I did a few years ago when it failed then?
Should I switch to using liquid, powered or pelletized Iron Sulfate which stains concrete (been there, done that).
I need help. If I can kill the moss, I can move on to the next step.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

MossEX works in granular form. I like that it is small so it can land on top of more moss easily. If you are looking for a spray, then Moss Out works better, but it will stain anything it comes into contact with... fence, deck, concrete, siding, etc. Frankly, Moss Out is only a good option for spot spraying, not for 1K sqft or more lawns. I would do MossEX granular at 'heavy' rate twice a month(once every two weeks) when the grass/moss is slightly damp, and monthly application after to control the moss. MossEX only controls the moss, not eliminates.

I consider the moss to be a plant taking advantage of bare soil. Every plant needs sunlight, even moss, but just that moss doesn't require a lot and thrives in wetter, colder, low light conditions in which other weeds can't. This is why moss thrives in fall/winter/spring when other plants are not active and more bare soil is exposed for its spores. Best way to take care of them is to block sun from reaching the bare soil for its spores to take hold, by (over)seeding, thickening up your lawn through fertilizing, and mowing at 3in. At least, that is my plan of attack this year.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

greencare said:


> MossEX works in granular form. I like that it is small so it can land on top of more moss easily. If you are looking for a spray, then Moss Out works better, but it will stain anything it comes into contact with... fence, deck, concrete, siding, etc. Frankly, Moss Out is only a good option for spot spraying, not for 1K sqft or more lawns. I would do MossEX granular at 'heavy' rate twice a month(once every two weeks) when the grass/moss is slightly damp, and monthly application after to control the moss. MossEX only controls the moss, not eliminates.
> I consider the moss to be a plant taking advantage of bare soil. Every plant needs sunlight, even moss, but just that moss doesn't require a lot and thrives in wetter, colder, low light conditions in which other weeds can't. This is why moss thrives in fall/winter/spring when other plants are not active and more bare soil is exposed for its spores. Best way to take care of them is to block sun from reaching the bare soil for its spores to take hold, by (over)seeding, thickening up your lawn through fertilizing, and mowing at 3in. At least, that is my plan of attack this year.


Thanks GREENCARE. What about killing the moss with some dissolved Iron Sulfate (ratio?). That would kill it, wouldn't it? I have a little of that left and I could get more.
Then I could sew gobs of seed and trim my trees.
But them what about where the moss keeps growing in my side yard in empty dirt beds in my house's shade? That never did that for 26 years and now it does. Why? What do I do there? I don't want grass there. Did I wreck to soil with some chemical I used trying to kill moss when the real problem was over watering? 
Now moss keeps growing. I want it dead, permanently.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> greencare said:
> 
> 
> > MossEX works in granular form. I like that it is small so it can land on top of more moss easily. If you are looking for a spray, then Moss Out works better, but it will stain anything it comes into contact with... fence, deck, concrete, siding, etc. Frankly, Moss Out is only a good option for spot spraying, not for 1K sqft or more lawns. I would do MossEX granular at 'heavy' rate twice a month(once every two weeks) when the grass/moss is slightly damp, and monthly application after to control the moss. MossEX only controls the moss, not eliminates.
> ...


I suppose it would work. I would dilute enough so it won't damage the lawn. You would know it works within a couple of hours (maybe even less) if the moss turns black. Moss Out spray works fast, but too much effort and too much risk.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Maybe that's what killed my side yard so that moss keeps growing back where it's never grown before, too much Iron Sulfate?
In the front yard grass, some grass still grows amongst the moss, but very little and sure not as strong as what it was a year ago.
So I've always been mixing a level of 1.33 oz measured in an 8 fluid oz measuring cup of Hi-Yield Iron Sulfate mixed with 48 oz water in my little pump sprayer.
Am I messing up? Aren't fluid oz different than solid oz?
This tiny package says it is 4 lbs and it too covers 1.000 sf. and if used dry, to sweep away any that lands on concrete.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> Maybe that's what killed my side yard so that moss keeps growing back where it's never grown before, too much Iron Sulfate?
> In the front yard grass, some grass still grows amongst the moss, but very little and sure not as strong as what it was a year ago.
> So I've always been mixing a level of 1.33 oz measured in an 8 fluid oz measuring cup of Hi-Yield Iron Sulfate mixed with 48 oz water in my little pump sprayer.
> Am I messing up? Aren't fluid oz different than solid oz?
> This tiny package says it is 4 lbs and it too covers 1.000 sf. and if used dry, to sweep away any that lands on concrete.


I can't tell you precisely how much iron is needed. I just follow the Moss Out directions. But my experience with Moss Out was that the moss turns black in less than an hour.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

That's it thanks. I hope ACE has Moss Out or I'll need to wait for Amazon.
What form of Moss Out have you used? I like those hose-end sprayers, so I hope those are good.


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> That's it thanks. I hope ACE has Moss Out or I'll need to wait for Amazon.
> What form of Moss Out have you used? I like those hose-end sprayers, so I hope those are good.


I have the one gallon concentrate. They say in the instruction to use a watering can, but I mixed it in a two gallon tank sprayer to spot treat. You can use a hose-end, but you have to be careful of it touching/drifting to anywhere else. If using tank sprayer, make sure you run clean water through it for a good five minutes after use as it will clog and rust otherwise.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

greencare said:


> vankjeff said:
> 
> 
> > That's it thanks. I hope ACE has Moss Out or I'll need to wait for Amazon.
> ...


Since some of my moss is near my foundation slab and the concrete a/c unit pads, I think that I'd like to just mix up a batch to spray with my 48oz hand sprayer. I hope it tells me how much to mix with 48oz water. Do you think it will? 
Or EVEN BETTER, wouldn't it easier to use some dry Moss Out since that wouldn't land on the sides of my slab and it could be swept off the concrete sidewalk and a/c unit slabs and then sprayed off with just plain water in my hand-held pump sprayer?


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## greencare (Sep 14, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> greencare said:
> 
> 
> > vankjeff said:
> ...


I used one of those brown leaf bags to shield sensitive edges when using the tank sprayer. I feel the tank sprayer, along with the shield, gave me better control and better application than granular. But please be cautious. Moss is one thing, stain is something else.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

My thoughts are that I've tried MossOut before and it didn't work just like this MossEX is doing but that was back before I'd realized with help here that my problem had been some really serious overwatering. I've since fixed my watering, or at least I've tried to, and the moss on the shaded side of my house by the a/c units has dried & the moss died with help from MossEX. The problem is, there's still green moss growing in areas in my front & backyards that are partially in sunlight and partly shaded. These areas are probably getting sprinkled by both the bush bed Zone sprinklers near it AND by the grass Zone sprinklers. So there's no real way to fix that that I can think of short of relaying the sprinkler's underground piping. Maybe different sprinkler heads that avoid overlaps while also not sprinkling some areas? Not good.
Grass will die.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I've been working on this for a few months in the background. I've been making notes and taking photos on a regular basis and trying to figure things out myself. I did have my trees trimmed and topped and that seems to of helped some places but not all of them. I do still have some moss in places that I shouldn't so I'm not done needing help. I thought I'd just check in. &#128075;


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