# Talk me off the ledge



## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

TLDR;
It appears there is a belt of gravel 3-5 inches below grade across my entire front yard. I could not take a sample below that depth, and shallow roots likely explains my woes.

So as some of you know my lawn struggles hard in summer. Some areas struggle more than others. My soil has high pH and is low on P and K but other than that it's OK. My CEC is real high, very clay soil.

Finally my soil probe arrived today, I was so pumped.

Until I used it. I took about 30 samples over 3000sqft. I didn't get one shot below 4". Every. Single. Pull.

There is what seems to be a layer of clear crush gravel 3 to 4" below grade. I cannot get deeper and when I really mess around with it I'm pulling small rocks in 85% of my plugs, this is no coincide. To make this worse last year I manually dug in an irrigation system in my back yard. About 4-6" down I had to use a pick and eventually a mini ex in a 300sqft area beside my house close to the front yard. I ended up pulling nearly a yard of crushed gravel from that area and replaced it with topsoil. I'm certain this carried on into my entire front lawn and gardens.

I'm asking myself is there even a point to tying on my yard anymore. I am not going to excavate this all out.

Here is the best plug I took (sorry blurry pic), it's about 4" deep. You can see the manure and Peat I added in the past in the top, then hard poopy clay then the start of the gravel mine. My roots extend into that gravel layer, but I really am not sure 4" is deep enough.

And I don't understand what this means for me nutrients-wise... Does my soil act like clay and hold things and then like sand and lose them after 4"?


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## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

Is your house built on a gravel pit? That's crazy, never seen anything like that.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

The house was built in the mid 70s on the side of a large escarpment, forest-y boggy type area. When I saw the backyard I assumed the contractor was lazy and left they garbage buried where no one would notice it beside the house. Now I don't have a dang clue.

What I really don't get it why I have so much clay on top of this rock, they must have just dumped all their junk on my property and said boom house.

Looks like one year when I'm bored my total reno will be something of legend.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

This is the area in the backyard I dug out. Behind this area around my shed you'll see all the crush I dug out, and that fieldstone was from the other 1000sqft.... I only dug it out to about 10" (18" where I trenched).

I imagine my front yard is that multiplied by at least 10.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

That is something. Unfortunately you are not alone. I recently discovered living on the side of a small mountain (almost at the bottom) my entire lot ( and everyone else) is filled with rocks.. not just gravel size, anywhere from 1-2" to 3-4ft.

I'm not joking but my septic guy came in last fall and was like this is absolutely normal and he brought up like 1' stones up easy.. I tried edging today guess what my shovel hit ... yeah you guessed it.. honestly will have to live with it.

If you have Lecel lot you can add an inch or two of topsoil/sand mix. 6" is decent growing depth but sinners might still be a struggle.

I have a few trwe stumps to grind and I'm afraid what will happen when the blade hits a rock.


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## Biggylawns (Jul 8, 2019)

I'd buy a ton of topsoil/sand and just put it on top to get another 3 to 4 inches.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

Thanks guys, adding 1 inch could be possible grading-wise, but I do not think I can manage much more than that if I was to slope away from the house correctly.

:/


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

uts said:


> That is something. Unfortunately you are not alone. I recently discovered living on the side of a small mountain (almost at the bottom) my entire lot ( and everyone else) is filled with rocks.. not just gravel size, anywhere from 1-2" to 3-4ft.
> 
> I'm not joking but my septic guy came in last fall and was like this is absolutely normal and he brought up like 1' stones up easy.. I tried edging today guess what my shovel hit ... yeah you guessed it.. honestly will have to live with it.
> 
> ...


I am glad I'm not alone, thank you.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

I have a lot of rocks in my yard, too. Soil in my area is primarily clay, and with my new construction home, a lot of fill dirt was brought it. When I dig holes for large shrubs, etc I have to use a pick axe, but my yard isn't crushed gravel. Just has a lot of rocks of all sizes in general. I raked as many rocks out as I could last spring and now focused on building topsoil as I go. I'm confused though, do you have pure crushed rock down beneath the clay? or is it just rocks mixed in the clay?


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

I wonder if gravel wasn't used purposefully as a way to mitigate the 'boggy-ness' that you mentioned above (??).


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

dport said:


> I have a lot of rocks in my yard, too. Soil in my area is primarily clay, and with my new construction home, a lot of fill dirt was brought it. When I dig holes for large shrubs, etc I have to use a pick axe, but my yard isn't crushed gravel. Just has a lot of rocks of all sizes in general. I raked as many rocks out as I could last spring and now focused on building topsoil as I go. I'm confused though, do you have pure crushed rock down beneath the clay? or is it just rocks mixed in the clay?


I'm speculating in my front yard right now based on what I pulled from my soil plugs, it was definitely crushed stone, probably screened at 1/2"ish. I'm planning on digging a 2x2 pit to see what the heck is going on properly one of these days.

There is no way every single of the 30 random spots I sampled I hit the needle in the haystack small rock buried, so that's the basis for my assumption, along with what I know for sure in the backyard.

What I know for sure from my backyard area that I dug out completely is it was clear crush buried under the soil and distributed across that 300sqft area, then it just disappears as I get further from my front lawn/house. I assumed the contractor buried their leftovers there because it was definitely crush, and definitely not a natural deposit. I have a good amount of field stone in addition to that crush, but that I assume is natural.

The good news is I am using the crush I dug out for a concrete pad base lol.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Oh man, this blows hard. Sorry to hear it.

Don't suppose you have any major house renos planned in the next few years where you'll have digging equipment around anyways?


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

corneliani said:


> I wonder if gravel wasn't used purposefully as a way to mitigate the 'boggy-ness' that you mentioned above (??).


This would make me feel better about it.... I'll talk to my neighbor once I see him outside again, he is one of the only original owners left so he knows best what we here before.

I want to sneak out and probe around the street one night to see what the rest of the lawns have lol.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

davegravy said:


> Oh man, this blows hard. Sorry to hear it.
> 
> Don't suppose you have any major house renos planned in the next few years where you'll have digging equipment around anyways?


I'm considering pissing off a biker gang so they can throw some propane tanks in my basement when I'm not home. That should fix most of my problems lol. Kidding of course.

Not sure what I'm going to do, I have two city ~50yr old loctus trees in the front and their roots are so shallow and sprawling I don't even know if I can dig up the lawn correctly.

I think I'm going to just have to find a way to live with shallow roots.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I know in theory more than 4" topsoil is recommended, but are your roots actually getting down to that layer of gravel?

I ask because I have a few spots in the front where there's gravel at around 5" depth but my roots are only 2" so I don't feel like the gravel is the weak link (yet).


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

@davegravy yes, no and maybe lol.

Some areas that are particularly weak, nope I had little to no rooting at the hard stop.

Other areas I can't tell because of all the tree roots (about 70% of my samples were full of roots, and I assume most are from the trees but the soil is looser in those areas so I am assuming the grass has made it down there.

Some areas I pulled clear plugs with grass roots hanging below the 4-5" mark.

Your point is a good one. Instead of eating a whale in one bite it may be a good idea to work on the soil in the extra shallow root areas and start taking lots of little bites out of this problem.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Kaba said:


> @davegravy yes, no and maybe lol.
> 
> Some areas that are particularly weak, nope I had little to no rooting at the hard stop.
> 
> ...


Also, I'm no grading expert and don't know your property layout, but maybe you can safely build up areas further from your structure a bit? You probably just don't want the ground right next to your structure sloping towards it.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Gravel? Like this?

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=22972#p22972


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## Minnesooota (Mar 26, 2020)

corneliani said:


> I wonder if gravel wasn't used purposefully as a way to mitigate the 'boggy-ness' that you mentioned above (??).


Possibly. OP is in GTA Ontario ... just across Superior, much of Ohio farmland was swampy before the CCC tiled it:






Perhaps a different approach was used in Ontario.

Similar to how parts of Chicago (Grant Park) and San Francisco were actually waterfront until filled in (North Beach, Financial District) and the occasional ship (sinking a ship was actually a way to acquire land in San Francisco: https://thebolditalic.com/what-lies-beneath-the-buried-ships-of-san-francisco-f16b2a045532).


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

It could also be that your house was the lot that they initially used for parking equipment, cars etc. during the construction phase. They are building more houses at the other end of my crescent and one of the lots they dumped 4" gravel onto and they setup their storage containers, portapotty, fenced in materials area etc. The builders also part their cars there. I wonder if they will remove that gravel or just grade over top...


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

g-man said:


> Gravel? Like this?
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=22972#p22972


Yes! Just not as finely screened but yes! What did you end up doing!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Dig, remove and add topsoil. I think I ended up with 12-15 of those buckets.

The rocks get warm in the summer and fry the roots.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Man, I'm sorry about the gravel. I had this issue at my last place, albeit only about 1 k sf.

They used my lot to stage all the pea gravel for sidewalks and driveways. And of course they just put topsoil right on top of it. After a few years the gravel showed up, and I had to scoop it out into a big trash can little by little over years.

Eventually I won.

Then we moved.

Wish I could have listed that gravel free corner as a bonus when we listed the house


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

g-man said:


> Dig, remove and add topsoil. I think I ended up with 12-15 of those buckets.
> 
> The rocks get warm in the summer and fry the roots.


This explains so much.

Did you peel the turf back a little bit at a time or just go for it and rip the whole yard up?


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Man, I'm sorry about the gravel. I had this issue at my last place, albeit only about 1 k sf.
> 
> They used my lot to stage all the pea gravel for sidewalks and driveways. And of course they just put topsoil right on top of it. After a few years the gravel showed up, and I had to scoop it out into a big trash can little by little over years.
> 
> ...


Thank you! Haha, next time I buy a house I'm brining my soil probe lol!

At least they were nice enough to put topsoil over and not just more clay hahah. I have a feeling my lot may have been a laydown area too now.

I'm thinking of tackling this in pieces as well. I really don't have the time right now to destroy my front... Already did that in the back lol


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I cut the grass in 2 x 3 ft pieces and lifted them like sod. I removed and filled with bag topsoil. I try to compact it as much as possible. Then I placed the sod back on top. It looked ugly for a while, but it heals.

I have pictures somewhere.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Just think @Kaba, your backfill can be a nice ph-neutral soil killing two birds with one stone.


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## Minnesooota (Mar 26, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Man, I'm sorry about the gravel. I had this issue at my last place, albeit only about 1 k sf.
> 
> They used my lot to stage all the pea gravel for sidewalks and driveways. And of course they just put topsoil right on top of it. After a few years the gravel showed up, and I had to scoop it out into a big trash can little by little over years.
> 
> ...


That makes sense.

Also, if your house was one of the last of the lots to get developed, guess where the builders dumped the big rocks and other dug up stuff from the lots developed before it.

Nevertheless, should you start digging and find a ship, we want photos.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

@Minnesooota I should call up the history Channel, this could be the next Oak Island!

_A ship shaped anomaly in the yard, only 3 inches down, in the shape of a Spanish Galleon, could it be Templar? _


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Minnesooota said:


> HoosierLawnGnome said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I'm sorry about the gravel. I had this issue at my last place, albeit only about 1 k sf.
> ...


Yeah, it was in the middle, so they did use it for staging.

I found about 4 or 5 4 sf concrete chunks over time, another buried pea gravel bed in a hell strip, and the access port to the water line.

SO. MUCH. FUN.


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