# PRG cut height relative to kbg



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Just curious, doing some reading, PRG appears to recommend Max height of 2.5". Kbg can be 2.5-3.5 to promote root growth.

I have been doing 3.5. so, does this mean I am negatively impact my PRG while positively impacting the kbg?

I guess what I am asking is with a 50/50 lawn should I ever be over 2.5"? The only reason I started going 3.5 was to try choking out the POA, but that isn't even working that well.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I have that mix and cut at 5/8". I know it's crazy but it works just fine. Just had to be trained over time.

I bet your fine whatever hoc you decide to cut.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> I have that mix and cut at 5/8". I know it's crazy but it works just fine. Just had to be trained over time.
> 
> I bet your fine whatever hoc you decide to cut.


Your probably right since it also says don't go below 1"...


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## RockyMtnLawnNut (Jun 23, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > I have that mix and cut at 5/8". I know it's crazy but it works just fine. Just had to be trained over time.
> ...


All rules are meant to be broken right? :twisted: I think that a lot of the newer so called elite varieties of both of these grasses will tolerate more on both sides of the spectrum. For instance, I just purchased a ryegrass blend that touts a tolerance to mowing at 7/16"...well outside the generic recommended range that you usually see.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> I have that mix and cut at 5/8".


wardconnor, how did you establish your front KBG/PRG mix?


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Roosterchest said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > I have that mix and cut at 5/8".
> ...


I hand planted a portion and hydro seed a larger portion.

Are you asking how I got it down that low? It's a long process that has been incredibly rewarding but here is a post I wrote up about it for your reading enjoyment. It's a long post so make sure your sitting down.

Have you read Petes renovation thread? He's going to be cutting this low when his turf establishes. Nice to have a fellow short cutter on my side.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

What I noticed is that cutting shorter 2.5" or less has better impact. I'm at 3.5" HOC now and notice the grass is bouncing back quicker compared to when I was at 2.5".

LIgrass posted this theory - http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=533&start=40#p14228 from PRG + Cool Season Grass.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> kolbasz said:
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> > wardconnor said:
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I'm a grass rule breaker for sure.

Kolbasz just cut it where ever and experiment with it. I'm curious about your results.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

One item to keep in mind is as you move into lower hoc, you need to increase the frequency of mowing. I'm mostly at 2in and I have to mow every 3.5 days (Sunday and Wednesday or Thursday). I've seen post from ward that he is almost mowing daily. Once I retire in 20 years I might be able to mow daily, for now 1.5-2.0 would be my range.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

g-man, are you using PGR?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Mowing daily...yes, maybe when the kids are gone and I do not have to go to work. I see a Reno in the distant distant future...


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> Roosterchest said:
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> > wardconnor said:
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I was curious if you established both at the same time or if you already had a stand of one type and added the other. You read a lot of noise about PRG/KBG being incompatible, PRG dominating, etc.


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## RockyMtnLawnNut (Jun 23, 2017)

Roosterchest said:


> wardconnor said:
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> > Roosterchest said:
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I believe that ward already had a stand of KBG. He started cutting it lower, and then thinned it out quite a bit with a verticutter. He then overseeded it with PRG. He gives a lot of credit to the PRG for the appearance of his lawn. I plan on doing the same very soon.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> g-man, are you using PGR?


Not yet. Barely fertilized thru the summer too. 50lb of cracked corn in July.

Yes pgr should reduce the mowing, but frequency will still increase with a lower hoc.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> Roosterchest said:
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> > wardconnor said:
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Yeah this is the case. Exactly what RockyMtnLawn said is correct. I had a stand of 4 varieties of KBG grew that from seed for 2 years. It was nice and thick and I was cutting it around 2 to 2.5 inches. Started going lower with rotary. Decided to over seed PRG.

I used a verticutter to heavily scar up and rough up KBG exposing the soil a bit. I then raked up and removed crown material with a rake and vacuum rotary mower. Once it was cleaned up and soil exposed I sowed the PRG. 3 weeks later it was looking awesome and full. I then bought a greens mower and the rest is history.

I plan to verticut here within a week or so. Its grown too thick and there is like a pillow the greens mower is riding on creating a washboard effect. I am going to try to make a video showing the process. We shall see if I can be motivated to film the process. This time I probably will not sow seeds.

If you are at all considering doing this I would not hesitate doing this again. I would recommend it.

Just like RockyMtnLawn said.... I do give the credit to the PRG for the appearance. All one needs to do it compare my backyard vs the front. The backyard still has the original blend without PRG.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

[/quote]
If you are at all considering doing this I would not hesitate doing this again. I would recommend it.
[/quote]

I was orginally planning on a full KBG stand but then decided on a KBG/PRG mix. I have 20lbs of each, just not sure of the ratio I want to go with.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I promise you will not be disappointed. The ryegrass germinates and grows way faster than the bluegrass. With that being said do not stop watering until like 30 days or so after seed down date. This will give the bluegrass a chance to get going.


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## RockyMtnLawnNut (Jun 23, 2017)

If you are at all considering doing this I would not hesitate doing this again. I would recommend it.
[/quote]

I was orginally planning on a full KBG stand but then decided on a KBG/PRG mix. I have 20lbs of each, just not sure of the ratio I want to go with.
[/quote]

I have a full KBG stand right now that I'm going to overseed with PRG this fall. I also have an area that is bare topsoil right now that I'm going to seed from scratch. Most of the university studies would recommend that you not go higher than 20-25% PRG by weight in the mix unless you want predominantly PRG in the final stand of turf. I think I am going to go with around 25% in my mix. One other thing you could consider would be delaying the planting of the PRG by a couple of weeks to give the KBG a little bit of an edge. It seems that PRG competes with the KBG more at the rootzone level than at the leaf level. I can't remember which study I read that in.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

In spending hours chewing nails over what to do, I saw this article last night. A lot of people will swear that KBG can't compete with PRG, PRG will dominate and die in the summer, etc.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150309135128.htm

"Under lawn conditions similar to our study, seeding ratios with high KBG (80:20 or 90:10 KBGRG) will likely shift to a stand composition of greater than 95% KBG within 2 years, whereas all other ratios lower in KBG will likely shift similarly within 3 years."


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## RockyMtnLawnNut (Jun 23, 2017)

Roosterchest said:


> In spending hours chewing nails over what to do, I saw this article last night. A lot of people will swear that KBG can't compete with PRG, PRG will dominate and die in the summer, etc.
> 
> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/03/150309135128.htm
> 
> "Under lawn conditions similar to our study, seeding ratios with high KBG (80:20 or 90:10 KBGRG) will likely shift to a stand composition of greater than 95% KBG within 2 years, whereas all other ratios lower in KBG will likely shift similarly within 3 years."


Here are a couple of others that indicate the opposite:

https://turf.purdue.edu/tips/2009/08102009_grassmix.html

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/mitgc/article/1990184.pdf

Bottom line is this for me at least:
I figure I want a little faster cover, so I'll probably go on the higher side of what's "recommended" for the ryegrass. I figure, if it shifts more to bluegrass over the years, that's fine. I can always overseed with more rye if I want. It's harder, on the other hand, to overseed KBG into rye. Don't sweat it. I think you'll be happy with any of the ratios. They may end up with different amounts of KBG to PRG, but they both will look good, and either of them can be managed well to create an elite turf.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I was also told my a university turf guy here at my local university that the rye grass will eventually die out due to the cold. I am a zone 3 or 4. I personally do not care if it dies out. The seed is relatively cheap and its easy to over seed with and grows up quick.

I just do not see that my PRG dominating and taking over. I do have a couple of 1 foot diameter spots where its ALL rye and its noticable. This is only the case because the seed bag spilled out right there when I was sowing and I was careless about picking it up. I picked up a little of the spilled seed and put it back in the bag but the rest I just fanned it out hoping it would disperse into the canopy. I will try to take a picture of that. I did secretly leave it well enough alone because I wanted to see what would happen if I left that much seed there in one spot.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> Here are a couple of others that indicate the opposite:


I don't think it is the opposite. The study indicates that the % of kbg will depend on the initial ratio. Look at the 50/50 it only had 10% at one year.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

I think the KBG is slow to start but really gets going by year two/three, likely due to rye die back. Just my thoughts.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

The best part about the whole deal IMO is that its fairly easily fixed if you hate any which way you seed or the final result. Although a renovation is not ideal, they work and are not that difficult to get the desired result within a year or so.


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## Roosterchest (Aug 3, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> The best part about the whole deal IMO is that its fairly easily fixed if you hate any which way you seed or the final result. Although a renovation is not ideal, they work and are not that difficult to get the desired result within a year or so.


My biggest concern is summer dormancy. This year we've had rain and it hasn't been hot so it's green. I don't irrigate. Too big for me. I'm really interested in 4th Millennium TTTF. Great results in NTEP. Probably will do that in the front to compare.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Roosterchest said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > The best part about the whole deal IMO is that its fairly easily fixed if you hate any which way you seed or the final result. Although a renovation is not ideal, they work and are not that difficult to get the desired result within a year or so.
> ...


Good point. I have no experience with relying on rain. That would never work in my climate. Most/a lot folks in the Rocky Mountain West have irrigation.


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