# Captquin - First Soil Test



## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

I sent off for my first real soil test, at Virginia Tech rather than the nursery. Looks like I need some lime. A LOT of lime.

Any recommendations on which one to use? Looks to me like DON'T need calcium. I assume a fine peletized lime, but that's about the extent of my knowledge. Can I begin applying now?

Other than the lime, any other recommendations based on the report?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Calcitic lime. Lots of it. Some P to build up reserves.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@g-man Interesting. Why are you recommending P when P is testing at very high?

@Captquin What kind of lime is available to you? Around Richmond about the only limes you can find are dolomitic lime and fast acting calcitic lime. I would say you could use either. If using fast acting calcitic lime, follow the directions on the bag. You'll only be able to use a very limited amount at a time. It will act faster but you need lots of lime. I'd recommend using a fast acting calcitic lime now to get the pH up before overseeding and then going with dolomitic later in the fall (and next spring) since you can put down 50 lb/1000 sq ft at a time of that.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Virginiagal typo again! Thanks. P is high, it could use some K to build reserves.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Good clarification! I was assuming that's what VH, H, and Suff meant.

@Virginiagal - Dunno. Haven't started looking. Again, all I know about it is the finer stuff works quicker and you water it in. Figured I'd look at Site One, the nursery, and Lowes.

So no issue with applying is this heat?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@Captquin I don't like applying anything in the heat but I think it should be okay if you water it in. It would be good to get the pH up before you seed and well enough in advance so the seedlings aren't coping with a high pH (from the lime doing its thing) right on the top surface where they're germinating. A month would give it some time to get working and settle down.

@g-man K is high too. And it leaches fairly easily so I'm intrigued by the idea of building up reserves. The CEC in the back is good and though lower in the front, it's not that terrible. His soil should be able to hold onto nutrients fairly well.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@Virginiagal kind of what I was thinking. Maybe start with the fast acting varieties and then follow up with Dolomitic?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

K is 208lb/a, which translates to 104ppm. I think 125ppm and above is a good target. This allows for some usage (1lb of K for every 2lb of N) and for leaching to still have enough. MLSN defines deficient at 37ppm.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@g-man Sounds reasonable, How much K would you recommend applying? I don't have any of my soil papers with me (and it's been awhile since I made any specific recommendations). I would guess you're recommending calcitic lime since magnesium is high. If regular calcitic lime is available, that would be my first choice too for later in the fall and next spring. It's just hard to find here. Fast acting calcitic now and regular (whatever is available) later.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, calcitic is ideal not to drive the mg higher, but dolomatic will also work if that's what's available. 140lb/ksqft will take 3 applications 6 months apart. Try to go with the cheap lime because at 20k lawn, this will get expensive with fast acting.

For K, around 1.5lb K2O/ksqft assuming no losses. Assuming 3lb of N for the rest of the year, then that's an additional 1.5lb, so target 3lb K2O/ksqft. After this just keep a maintenance strategy of 1lb K2O for every 2lb of N.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Have you applied lime or gypsum to the back in the past year?


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@Ridgerunner 
Nope. We relocated here 5 years ago from the gulf south where you couldn't keep grass from growing. All you had to know was pre-emergent and fertilizer. I knew there were different types of grass, but not cool season vs warm season until two years ago when someone mentioned "overseeding."

Been learning about cool season turf for the last 24 months and this was my first soil test. Have a tomato paste can out now for a baseline irrigation audit.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Apparently your front and back are two different soil. Do you know if the development was farm land or have you been fertilizing them differently? Any reason that would account for the back P levels?


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

No idea. Very established neighborhood and not quite sure.

I did a reno in the back last fall. Spread a soil/compost blend and then started fertilizer. Maybe that was it?

Been reading up on it. I'm a fisherman so keeping it out of the watershed is important to me. Seems like step one is to use zero phosphorus fertilizer until needed.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

I think your samples show that the back def got some starter and a heavy dose if I might say compared to the front. That said it's all good. At least you dont have to add more.

I have a similar situation and there are 2 pieces of advise that I can give you.

1. You will be spreading ALOT of lime on a huge surface so either get a tow behind spreader of you have a lawn tractor or get an excellent push spreader. DONOT try and do this with a Scott's type thing, your body will hate you for it.

2. A fast acting lime is expensive but probably worth it in my opinion because it will cut down your applications by a few times.

Read about different types of lime. Two
properties of lime govern its quality: purity (percent calcium carbonate equivalent) and fineness (particle size). These two factors are used to calculate the neutralizing index, a measurement of the relative value of the liming material.

Since you will be buying a lot, look at these values on the label before you buy to make a better decision in terms of product and price for each.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You could hold off on any liming for the back until late fall, as 5.8 is not terrible (still good to raise it later on). I've used an ordinary Scott's spreader for around 6000 sq ft and it was fine. Bags of lime themselves are heavy (40 lb?) so it was difficult to get out of the car and to pour into the spreader. The fast acting lime will work faster and you can only use 10lb/1000 sq ft or so per application (read the bag). So it will take more applications to get to the total needed. A certain amount of lime neutralizes a certain amount of acidity.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@uts @Virginiagal 
Thank you both. Been reading up. The "fast acting" lime at Lowe's has a large particle size. 55% at 50 mesh. Not sure how that would be fast acting.

Thinking I'll do Calcitic or sol u cal.

With all the Phos in the back, you'd think I have great roots and no heat stress! Unfortunately the case.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

If it's faster acting than Ag Lime (most states have codes setting out the standards for Ag lime), it's consider "fast acting" lime. To help with perspective, studies have shown that the application of the same purity lime in the same quantity ground to 60 mesh will result in the same change in pH as one ground to 100 mesh 1 year after application. The issue is that the 100 mesh can react so quickly that it is more prone to creating the nutrient issues I mention in answering your question on the other thread.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Uts must be talking about powdered lime. That would be hard to spread and would create a big dust cloud. Definitely get pelletized lime. Solucal is a calcitic lime.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> Uts must be talking about powdered lime. That would be hard to spread and would create a big dust cloud. Definitely get pelletized lime. Solucal is a calcitic lime.


I'm not sure what context you mean, but I referred to pellitized lime only. Powdered is an absolute pain to spread in the lawn. That said there are specific machines that do spread.on farms and its mesmerizing to watch that. Lol

This is what I meant by particle size and CCE. These are labels of 4 different products that were available around me.









Note the different amount of Ca, CCE, size and humic acid contents.

These product ranges from $13 - $20 .. all things will influence your dicision including availability.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@uts I would consider all these as fast acting. The give away is their recommended rate for pH adjustment to be 12lb/ksqft instead of 50lb/ksqft. They pulverized the lime and then formed it into a prill with other stuff (HA, Iron, etc). That's why it cost $13-20 for a 50lb instead of $3-4.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

g-man said:


> @uts I would consider all these as fast acting. The give away is their recommended rate for pH adjustment to be 12lb/ksqft instead of 50lb/ksqft. They pulverized the lime and then formed it into a prill with other stuff (HA, Iron, etc). That's why it cost $13-20 for a 50lb instead of $3-4.


Absolutely, all of these are marketed as well as fast acting. Their application rates are very similar, though the annoying thing is that none state how many points that application will move. A golf superintendent that I know said that it usually is for 0.5 points on the scale provided one is not at the extreme like <5 etc, where things get more difficult. For larger areas I def consider these better if they can actually correct that much.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find any simple ag calcitic lime..maybe that's just a result of what is produced here. I just saw dolomitic lime and even though dolomitic lime had better CCE, their ENV was lower than the ones that I got (or when I calculated). Also spreading 5 times the amount gave me chills with a manual scotts spreader. Lol


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@uts What is in lime that neutralizes acidity?


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Ridgerunner said:


> @uts What is in lime that neutralizes acidity?


I feel as if I am.walking into a trap.. lol .. I promise I've tried to read a lot about lime.. let me know where I am going wrong.. lol



Ridgerunner said:


> CCE (calcium carbonate equivalent, sometimes labeled as TNP- total neutralizing power) is the neutralizing potential of the lime. Pure calcitic limestone has an CCE of 100%, The neutralizing ability of all other product is based/compared to the 100 CCE of pure calcitic limestone. If a product has a CCE of less than 100, it will take more of that product to neutralize the same amount of acidity that pure limestone can neutralize. If the CCE is greater than 100, it will take less of that product.
> Pure Dolomitic lime has a CCE of 108. It will take less dolomitic limestone to neutralize the same amount of acidity as the same weight of calcitic limestone. Keeping in mind that it's the CO3 that neutralizes acidity and that calcitic limestone is CaCO3 and dolomitic is CaCO3 and MgCO3, but MgCO3 weighs less than CaCO3. So you get more MgCO3 molecules per pound compared to the number of CaCO3 molecules in a pound. That's more CO3 and more acidity that will be neutralized on a pound for pound basis--8% more.
> RNV (relative neutralizing value, sometimes labeled as ENV, effective neutralizing value is a rating system that incorporates both CCE ratings and the fines to which the lime has been ground. The finer/smaller the grind, the higher the rating.
> The size of the material determines the speed by which the lime will neutralize acidity. For any lime particles larger than 8 mesh, less than 5% of the lime will dissolve and interact with the acidity within one year and less than 15% in 4 years. Particles larger than a 10 mesh get zero credit in the rating system.
> ...


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@uts When a soil test says you need 100 lb of lime, you need 100 lb of lime, whether it is fast acting or regular. If you use fast acting lime, and are limited to 12 lb/K each application, you must make 8 applications (at two apps per year, it will take 4 years). If you use regular lime, you can put down 50 lb/K and can do it in 2 applications. The regular lime is slower acting and some of it will still be reacting for 3-4 years. I don't understand your spreader issue. I've never had any problems using my little Scott's spreader. So I was puzzled at why you recommend going out to buy a special spreader to spread lime. I too find it difficult to find regular calcitic lime. I have found it at Trinity Turf, which sells to golf courses and landscapers. But hardware stores and big box stores seem to have just the fasting acting calcitic lime.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> @uts When a soil test says you need 100 lb of lime, you need 100 lb of lime, whether it is fast acting or regular. If you use fast acting lime, and are limited to 12 lb/K each application, you must make 8 applications (at two apps per year, it will take 4 years). If you use regular lime, you can put down 50 lb/K and can do it in 2 applications. The regular lime is slower acting and some of it will still be reacting for 3-4 years. I don't understand your spreader issue. I've never had any problems using my little Scott's spreader. So I was puzzled at why you recommend going out to buy a special spreader to spread lime. I too find it difficult to find regular calcitic lime. I have found it at Trinity Turf, which sells to golf courses and landscapers. But hardware stores and big box stores seem to have just the fasting acting calcitic lime.


I dont disagree on the total amount of lime at all. I just feel that it's easier to get some good results with a fast acting lime now and you can keep adding other lime as you go (if I have the impression that you dont need the recommended amount then that's not what my intention was) .

Also I looked for calcitic lime at quite a few turf stores and it seems everybody carried solucal or their equivalent.

My issue with a spreader may just be my property being on a slope. Driving a 50lb product was difficult at times. Spreading 25 bags of dolomitic lime (as per my test of 50lb/k) seemed quite a bit. That's why I recommended a better set up. Could just be me. I also had some SOP to spread at that time, so I just might be a chicken .. lol


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@uts No, no, not trying to trick you. Just prodding you to analyze it. Common liming material is limestone (CaCO3). It's the CO3 that reacts with the H+ (acidity) in the soil that neutralizes the H+ (resulting in Ca, H2O and CO2) and raises pH. Anything else that manufacturers add (HA, super secrete additives like PAM) doesn't have the ability to neutralize H+ to my knowledge. Consequently, whatever the limestone product, whether it's Aglime or some "fast acting" lime, it's going to take the same amount of CO3 (carbonate) to neutralize the H+ and achieve the desired pH.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Ridgerunner said:


> @uts No, no, not trying to trick you. Just prodding you to analyze it. Common liming material is limestone (CaCO3). It's the CO3 that reacts with the H+ (acidity) in the soil that neutralizes the H+ (resulting in Ca, H2O and CO2) and raises pH. Anything else that manufacturers add (HA, super secrete additives like PAM) doesn't have the ability to neutralize H+ to my knowledge. Consequently, whatever the limestone product, whether it's Aglime or some "fast acting" lime, it's going to take the same amount of CO3 (carbonate) to neutralize the H+ and achieve the desired pH.


In my medical training when my attending asks something like that you realize you may be walking into something... lol

But I appreciate what you did there. I think when I was buying and researching I wanted to get at least some immediate results and then slowly add the rest that was needed, also I didnt find simple calcitic lime anywhere. Lots of dolomitic lime. Some of that is being translated in some of my responses here as well.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@uts It seems it became merely an academic exercise anyway. 



> I dont disagree on the total amount of lime at all. I just feel that it's easier to get some good results with a fast acting lime now and you can keep adding other lime as you go (if I have the impression that you dont need the recommended amount then that's not what my intention was) .


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@uts Maybe the reason I didn't have problems with the spreader was I had less product in it than you did, because I was using a small spreader and it only holds so much. More refills but easier to push.

I have used both fast acting and regular and they both have their advantages and disadvantages. To get a 5.2 pH up quickly, using fast acting now and regular later for the remainder seems reasonable.

@Captquin I am concerned about the high phosphorus. How could it get so high? Could fertilizer do this? Here is some reading material when I googled:
https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/mitgc/article/1972100.pdf
Not sure the date of this but Carrow is a well respected turfgrass specialist. Also keep in mind that this is the first year for your grass and the roots are still immature. I wonder if the losses you're experiencing may be related to abnormal phosphorus levels.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Good dialog.

Re: high Phosphorus, I don't recall where I addressed it, but my guess is starter fert in the fall with leftover in the spring and compost. Will have to use zero phos fertilizer going forward until soil test says otherwise. May need to bag clippings as well.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Plan on applying Lime Lite Pro Cal. Looks 2 50lb bags will cover my 10sqft at the initial rate.


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