# Alternatives to glyphosate during lawn renovation



## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Lawn Forum,

I've posted several questions before on converting my existing 6000 sq ft cool season (TTTF) lawn in Charlotte NC (Full sun, no trees, less than 5 yrs new construction) to Bermuda - either through sod or seed.

Sod - choice is TifTuf. Cost is approx $4200 including labor to prep soil (till) and lay sod.

Seed - choice is Arden 15. Cost is approx $1100 including labor, and probably a hefty $300-400 water bill.

For seeding Arden 15, the majority of advice is to use Glyphosate to kill the existing TTTF fescue, and then start the process.

But what other alternative strategies are there to using Glyphosate when seeding bermuda?

Recent reports on Glyphosate/Round Up have spooked me, and I am uncomfortable using it until more evidence is out there. That's my Personal choice, and I respect the opinion of those that disagree, but that's how it is. Even for use on my paltry 6000 sq ft lawn, I don't want to use it.

So this isn't a post to debate the pros and cons of using glyphosate, and whether I am correct in using it or not - this is a question asking if there are alternative strategies to seeding bermuda (Arden 15) without using glyphosate to kill the existing tall fescue turf first, and whether its worth it.

Has anybody had success repeatedly mowing their TTTF down to 1 inch during early May, waiting 4 weeks for it to brown and die with no irrigation, then seeding Bermuda and watering?

What are the drawbacks of using this method?

Will the TTTF die (with our brutal summers, it seems to normally die no problem in my back yard every year, calling for a TTTF renovation every Fall...).

Thanks.


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## The Anti-Rebel (Feb 16, 2019)

There are alternatives, but any chemical you use is going to carry a certain amount of risk.


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## lambert (Sep 12, 2018)

Those "reports" are lawyers running ads trying to make money. There is no legitimate science or scientific study that suggests that glyphosate is even as carcinogenic as red meat or indoor fire places. Use whatever you like, but understand this is nothing more than lawyers running ads and social media hysteria. Here are a few links to get you started with a more scientific understanding of the "issue". This is information by people who, unlike the roundup lawyers, do not have an ulterior motive or agenda:

Here is a discussion by a University of Tennessee professor about the actual science: https://twitter.com/UTturfgrass/status/1167067229063696385?fbclid=IwAR2idFeZyQutK4XMqSHnpn1F0wmnF7656OnqMVdMCeTy3lt91AhH6GjHCYg

Here is an article discussing the studies used in the lawsuits -- make sure to look at the authors credentials before dismissing: https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2019/02/18/does-the-herbicide-roundup-cause-cancer/#6a3f35d021b4

Here is a video from Matt Martin (Grassfactor) discussing glyphosate: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY2DvqX4J9Y&t=1069s


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Thx and Appreciate the reply @lambert , and I've seen Matt's video already (and will follow the other links you provided also, but....

Taking this all into account, my question is still...
What (if any) other alternative strategies are there to using Glyphosate when seeding bermuda?

That's what I'm exploring right now....


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## lambert (Sep 12, 2018)

I don't know what a good alternative is, I would use glyphosate every time. I only posted the above response so that if someone finds this thread in a google search it won't just serve to reinforce this ridicules roundup hysteria without at least offering some actual facts about the product. The most knowledgable person who posts on this forum is @Greendoc maybe he will give you some other ideas about products to use.


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## McDiddles (Feb 24, 2020)

This is not a good method for establishing a bermudagrass lawn. With any seeding you need seed to soil contact. Without some type of cultivation it's likely you wont get any results.

There are plenty of products that will control fescue. Celsius and Certainty off the top of my head. There is always risk when applying pesticide. Plus, they're going to work a lot slower, and will require multiple applications.

In my experience prep for seeding and prep for sod are about the same, if you wan't good results. Also, in my experience I've never seen good results with bermudagrass seed. Just based on our terrible clay soil around here.

Is $4200 is the all in price for sodding? Meaning they remove the old, till, add soil, level, and lay the new?


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

McDiddles said:


> This is not a good method for establishing a bermudagrass lawn. With any seeding you need seed to soil contact. Without some type of cultivation it's likely you wont get any results.


Unless bermuda germination is fundamentally different from cool-season grasses, I disagree with this completely. The best, most even germination I've ever gotten was seeding a reno into the dead, scalped (~1") turf of the old lawn . . . with no cultivation, on East TN clay soils.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

In my experiences with fescue, just throwing out seed and watering is not nearly as effective as rolling or raking in the seed. It's spraying and praying vs actually planting the seeds.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Put black plastic over your entire lawn area after watering the area thoroughly. Leave it in place this season. Remove it next spring. Seed your Bermuda in 2021. That is the only way I know of to do a lawn renovation without herbicides that is readily accessible to everyone.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> In my experiences with fescue, just throwing out seed and watering is not nearly as effective as rolling or raking in the seed. It's spraying and praying vs actually planting the seeds.


I topdress with a very thin layer of compost. No rolling, though I have raked thatch out before seeding if necessary. I had to do that when I was going from common bermuda to TTTF.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@Zenith_NC Have you considered the Mirimichi MG PRO product? The active ingredient is Ammonium Nonanoate (?). It's a bit pricey @ $150/2.5gal, but it may fit your bill. Check it out here, and the product sheets / label is at the bottom of the page
https://mirimichigreen.com/products/weed-control-concentrate/


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

You can kill TTTF and most other weeds with horticultural vinegar (hi-strength white vinegar about 30%). Not sure how much you'd need but I'd guess at least 1 gal per M and it's not cheap on Amazon. Can't say for sure if it will drop soil pH but that's a possible side effect.


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## McDiddles (Feb 24, 2020)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> McDiddles said:
> 
> 
> > This is not a good method for establishing a bermudagrass lawn. With any seeding you need seed to soil contact. Without some type of cultivation it's likely you wont get any results.
> ...


You are talking about a completely opposite turf species. In which has completely opposite growing requirements. In my experience I've seen fescue germinate quite easily, with or without cultivation, in a variety of conditions. Bermudagrass, not so much. If it was my $1100, And my time. I'd be putting in some prep work.

As @Zenith_NC asked, I'd like to see some folks who have done this with bermuda, and had success with it.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

McDiddles said:


> You are talking about a completely opposite turf species. In which has completely opposite growing requirements. In my experience I've seen fescue germinate quite easily, with or without cultivation, in a variety of conditions. Bermudagrass, not so much. If it was my $1100, And my time. I'd be putting in some prep work.
> 
> As @Zenith_NC asked, I'd like to see some folks who have done this with bermuda, and had success with it.


I'll be able to document a case study in about 3 months, so we'll see!  That's when I kill annual rye and seed bermuda into the dead turf in my back yard.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

corneliani said:


> @Zenith_NC Have you considered the Mirimichi MG PRO product? The active ingredient is Ammonium Nonanoate (?). It's a bit pricey @ $150/2.5gal, but it may fit your bill. Check it out here, and the product sheets / label is at the bottom of the page
> https://mirimichigreen.com/products/weed-control-concentrate/


Interesting.... thanks. I will see what else I can find out about this...


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

corneliani said:


> @Zenith_NC Have you considered the Mirimichi MG PRO product? The active ingredient is Ammonium Nonanoate (?). It's a bit pricey @ $150/2.5gal, but it may fit your bill. Check it out here, and the product sheets / label is at the bottom of the page
> https://mirimichigreen.com/products/weed-control-concentrate/


Interesting.... thanks. I will see what else I can find out about this...


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

cglarsen said:


> You can kill TTTF and most other weeds with horticultural vinegar (hi-strength white vinegar about 30%). Not sure how much you'd need but I'd guess at least 1 gal per M and it's not cheap on Amazon. Can't say for sure if it will drop soil pH but that's a possible side effect.


Thanks @cglarsen , this is something that I have heard of as being effective short-term, but not long term (ie. the high strength vinegar doesn't kill to the root) - but I will research more. 41% glyphosate is so much cheaper though....

Do you have any further details as to how effective the high strength vinegar method is?

Soil PH is something I hadn't considered either with this. My soil PH is around the 6.3-6.6 mark.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Look, not to rain on the parade and I respect anyone that wants to stay away from something that they think may be dangerous, but come on. There is a danger with anything. You can use glyphosate 100% safe with minimal effort. Don't spray on a windy day and wear pants and gloves. Done. Cheap, ridiculously effective and extremely safe.

You are fortunate enough to have the right tools available for you to use. Why keep trying to find something that won't work as effective as what you have readily available to you.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Zenith_NC said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > You can kill TTTF and most other weeds with horticultural vinegar (hi-strength white vinegar about 30%). Not sure how much you'd need but I'd guess at least 1 gal per M and it's not cheap on Amazon. Can't say for sure if it will drop soil pH but that's a possible side effect.
> ...


I used it to spot spray weeds in the back where the dogs access due to wife's prohibition on roundup and other herbicides. I spot sprayed and got good kill on crabgrass and goose grass but two apps would not take down dallisgrass. That one is tough as nails. Collateral damage on surrounding fescue was high in spots I got sloppy. I'd do a test plot with a gallon and see how it does.


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## HarryZoysia (Aug 27, 2019)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> McDiddles said:
> 
> 
> > You are talking about a completely opposite turf species. In which has completely opposite growing requirements. In my experience I've seen fescue germinate quite easily, with or without cultivation, in a variety of conditions. Bermudagrass, not so much. If it was my $1100, And my time. I'd be putting in some prep work.
> ...


Unless your Bermuda seed has good soil contact, you will be amazed at what poor germination you will have. It's definitely different than cool season grass. It can be done but it must have soil contact.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

HarryZoysia said:


> Unless your Bermuda seed has good soil contact, you will be amazed at what poor germination you will have. It's definitely different than cool season grass. It can be done but it must have soil contact.


Cool season grass requires good soil contact too. That's no different. I'm not talking about seeding into thatch, here. The seed will be on the soil, covered by 1/8", protected by 1" of dead rye. I am willing to be wrong, but I don't think this is going to be a problem.


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## HarryZoysia (Aug 27, 2019)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> HarryZoysia said:
> 
> 
> > Unless your Bermuda seed has good soil contact, you will be amazed at what poor germination you will have. It's definitely different than cool season grass. It can be done but it must have soil contact.
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## Darrell_KC (Mar 20, 2019)

Here's my own opinion from my experience. I understand you want to skip on the chemical component and that your objective would be to mow as short as possible and then seed. You COULD try it, but here's what I would think will happen. It takes time for the seedlings to begin to sprout. Once they sprout, it takes more time for them to grow and become self sufficient. During this growth window, you are throwing down a lot of water to keep things moist.

While you are doing your best to water and keep things moist, your scaled fescue will start to come back. As it comes back, it will grow faster than your seedlings will, and grow taller. That will cause the fescue to start shading out and stealing sunlight from the seedlings, and the fescue will eventually out compete most of your bermuda. Remember, during the first month, you cannot mow your lawn to keep the fescue short. You have to give time for the seedlings to root.

If you truly want to go the completely chemical free route, I'd say you have two options and neither are great and both bring their own issues and are extremely labor intensive. 1) Rent a sod cutter, and cut out the old fescue lawn. They aren't cheap, its hard work and very dirty and heavy and disposing of old sod sucks. 2) Rototill the old lawn. This will get you down to dirt, but will still stir up weeds/weed seeds, cause you to have an uneven lawn if you are worried about leveling, and again raking up piles of dead grass and dirt and disposal is a bear.

You are doing 6k square feet, my project was 14k square feet so you will have it easier than I did, but I went the normal route of glyphosate, scalp as low as possible, and then tried to rotorill the back, struggled mightily and resorted to using a SunJoe to dethatch/scarify and that helped immensely. I probably tossed out about 25 contractor sized bags of dead sod clumps and clay/rocks that came out from all the work.


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## FlowRider (Apr 7, 2019)

This is the answer I would use:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liQI_BzXbls


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## FlowRider (Apr 7, 2019)

More details of how this machine can get the lawn squared away without chemicals:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLvAiP3xqXw


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