# Creating A Year Long Plan - Please Help



## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Hello All,

I recently found this forum and have read a lot of threads and the cool season lawn guide, but I am hoping to bounce some ideas off of people to improve my lawn. This is my third year as a homeowner (and thus lawn owner) and I have finally begun to take more pride in our yard so I am hoping to develop a good plan for the yard going forward. I have a small fescue yard and I'm located in the southern portion of zone 7.

So with it being summer, from what I have read around here, there isn't a whole lot that I can do other than water. However I am looking to develop a plan for this fall as well as next year.

Here is what I have so far:

Fall 2018 - 
1. Late August/Early September - Dethatch and Aerate (I am not 100% if this is necessary, but since I haven't used any pre-emergent in the past 3 years it seems like the pros may outweigh the cons). If aerating is a waste of money I can gladly skip it.
2. Early September - Overseed: I have overseeded in the past with Scotts fescue seed with decent success, but I'm open to any other seed that would be better. Also, when overseeding in the past, I have never used a starter to help with germination. Is this something that is recommended to use when overseeding as a best practice?
3. Late Fall - Apply a pre-emergent to prevent poa annua. Recommendation for what to use in this step?
4. Early Spring 2019 - pre-emergent for crabgrass prevention. Best pre-emergent for early spring?
5. Spring 2019 - Apply fertilizer? I'm not sure on this one yet if a spring fertilizer is recommended or not.
6. Fall 2019 - Do fall fertilizer blitz as outlined in the lawn care guide

Now my final question (sorry I know this is a bit lengthy) relates to the back yard - as that is where our dog plays and takes relief. I am currently really struggling with the back yard as just about every time our dog urinates, the yard gets urine burn and dies. So I have a lot of bare spots in the back yard from this. So I am wondering if I need to take into account any special practices to help prevent this or any other steps to help the yard.

Thanks in advance for any tips or any suggested changes to my plan.


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## Miller_Low_Life (Apr 12, 2017)

I have a couple of questions.
What kind of shape is your lawn in?
What goals do you have for results?
How much are your prepared to spend?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jaygrizzle said:


> 4. Early Spring 2019 - pre-emergent for crabgrass prevention. Best pre-emergent for early spring?


Prodiamine or dithiopyr are two common options. Personally, I like granular dithiopyr because I prefer using a broadcast spreader compared to spraying liquids. However, I think most would opine that liquid applications provide better coverage (more even coverage) and are more cost-effective.



jaygrizzle said:


> Overseed: I have overseeded in the past with Scotts fescue seed with decent success, but I'm open to any other seed that would be better.


One concern about what you can buy at Lowes etc is the possibility of introducing undesirable plants to your lawn. Check the label of your grass seed bag: Does it read: 0.00% weed seed and 0.00% other crop? If not, I would not take a chance.
You can buy really strong cultivars from seed distributors. Many of us use superseedstore and Hogan's Seed Co., but there are plenty of options. Companies such as these can give you a high-performing cultivar as well as providing a bag that doesn't contain undesirable seeds (such as POA A or T etc).


jaygrizzle said:


> 5. Spring 2019 - Apply fertilizer? I'm not sure on this one yet if a spring fertilizer is recommended or not.


That one is not easy. Some believe that spring N contributes to disease in the summer. Personally, I have gone with a relatively light dose of N in the early spring, but that is all. I'm saving the N for the fall. If you do decide to use N in the spring, do it early in the spring.

Welcome to TLF :thumbup:


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Miller_Low_Life said:


> I have a couple of questions.
> What kind of shape is your lawn in?
> What goals do you have for results?
> How much are your prepared to spend?


So my front yard is in mediocre shape. From being a dummy and not putting down any pre-emergent the last 3 springs, there are a few grassy weeds that I have been trying to stay on top of by spraying with post-emergent weed killers. The backyard however is kind of rough due to the wear and tear from the dog. There are a lot of bare spots from urine burn and I'm pretty sure there was a lot of poa annua this spring.

My goals for the front is for now to get to tier 1. I'd like to get to a point where they front yard has no weeds, is thick and has a dark green color. There are two yards in my neighborhood that have a really nice dark green fescue lawn that I would like to try and replicate. In short, just have a front lawn with nice curb appeal. At this point for the back yard, my goal is to try get rid of all the bare spots and to try and prevent my dog from killing the grass. The back yard isn't as high as a priority as the front. If it was possible to get the back yard to tier 1 I would love that, but I don't want to just keep spending money on it to try and make it nice, only for the dog to kill it.

I would like to budget for around $400 or less annually for lawn products/maintenance if at possible. I'm going to adjust my lawn size in my profile as I'd say its more likely around 2,000 sq feet or so. The front I'd estimate is around 600 sq feet and the back round 1,000 sq feet. Then the sides of the house maybe around 400 sq feet (maybe a little less). So it's a pretty small lawn.

Thanks for any help!


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

social port said:


> jaygrizzle said:
> 
> 
> > 4. Early Spring 2019 - pre-emergent for crabgrass prevention. Best pre-emergent for early spring?
> ...


What would be the best liquid dithiopyr? I have a small 1 gallon tank sprayer that I will plan to use to apply the pre-emergent as my yard is pretty small. I found Dithiopyr 40 WSB, but from the Q&A portion they recommend if you have less than an acre to use the liquid version Dimension 2EW. However, the Dimension 2EW is a bit pricey at $150 for 64oz. From the label it says to use .33 - .73 of an ounce for every 1,000 sq feet. So for my lawn for one whole application would use at most 1.5 oz. So it would take roughly 40 years for me to use one jug? Lol.. Any liquid options that come in smaller jugs that won't be as pricey?

I will check out Hogan's Seed Co. as they have been recommended in a lot of threads on here. Do you have an estimate on how much a 25lb or 50lb bag of fesue would cost if ordered from them? I'm trying to get an idea of what to budget for. Is there any products that I should use when overseeding to help with germination or anything?

Thanks for your tips!


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

> Is there any products that I should use when overseeding to help with germination or anything?


A couple of things:

1. You do not want to apply any pre or post emergent on areas where you are overseeding. The barrier created from prodiamine and dithiopyr will also prevent good grass seed from germinating.

2. Spraying Tenacity at seed down will help prevent new weeds from popping out and will also act as a post emergent on some existing weeds, without inhibiting new seed growth.

3. Apply starter fert at seed down to help feed the soil and new seed.

4. Water, water, water. I assume based on the size of your lawn, you do not have an in ground irrigation system. I don't either and I have approx. 2,400 sf total. I am doing an overseed project in August and have purchased two Orbit H20 6 gear drive sprinklers that will be linked together in my backyard approx. 15 feet apart. This will be hooked up to timer that allows me to program at least 4 different watering times each day. I'll be able to set my schedule and not have to worry about it.

One final thing....I know you don't want to spend a fortune each year on good lawn maintenance - I don't either, and it's easy to get out of control and buy a whole bunch of products you probably don't need. However, I will offer this advice....don't be short sighted about the investments you make. Some products might last you a couple of seasons - fertilizer, seed, pre/post emergents, sprinklers, timer etc. It's easier to swallow and easier to explain to your wife!

One final final note - you are about to invest a lot of time and some money into this. You want to do things right the first time. It can be a painstaking and long process. But if you do the research, take the advice given and plan everything out, it will be worth in the end and ultimately cost you far less than having to do it all again next year.

Good luck and keep us posted.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Harts said:


> > Is there any products that I should use when overseeding to help with germination or anything?
> 
> 
> A couple of things:
> ...


1/2. So Tenacity will act as a pre-emergent for weeds but won't effect the germination of my overseed? Interesting. I didn't know that was possible, but that would be perfect. Does Tenacity prevent poa annua? I didn't see it listed in the description I read of the product.

3. Do you have any recommendation for a good starter to put down when overseeding?

4. I actually do have an irrigation system that really helps in the summer and could be beneficial when overseeding

Good point on the investment in products and using for multiple seasons. I definitely want to do it right the first time so I don't want to skimp on using the right stuff.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

jaygrizzle said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I recently found this forum and have read a lot of threads and the cool season lawn guide, but I am hoping to bounce some ideas off of people to improve my lawn. This is my third year as a homeowner (and thus lawn owner) and I have finally begun to take more pride in our yard so I am hoping to develop a good plan for the yard going forward. I have a small fescue yard and I'm located in the southern portion of zone 7.
> 
> ...


i had a similar question last week regarding preM timing and got this answer from @Suburban Jungle Life 
"_For TTTF, I do what g-man said. I use tenacity at seed down and 30 days later. This gives 2 months of protection before switching to prodiamine. I do a prodiamine app at 60 after seed down and then another app in spring. For TTTF, I also use ethofumesate (poa constrictor) at seed down, 30 days after, and once in spring. This in combination with the tenacity schedule works well to control poa. This plan doesn't fit if seeding KBG though_."


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jaygrizzle said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > jaygrizzle said:
> ...


Jay, I don't use liquid pre-emergents so I can't really advise on a particular product. If you haven't used a sprayer before, I do think that granular is a good option. It is easier to mess up with spray applications, in my opinion.

For a blend of TTTF from Hogan, you should expect to pay less than $150 for 50 lbs worth of seed. That estimate includes shipping and handling. But treat this, of course, as a rough estimate.
It looks like other forum members have addressed questions about overseeding. Note that you can purchase starter fertilizer that has meostrione/tenacity already in it (made by Scott's). That is the route I would recommend. It is expensive, but it saves time and, like granular pre-emergent, is also more forgiving.

One issue that you need to research: You may not even need tenacity/mesotrione if you are only overseeding. I've read somewhere that tenacity is best for renovations but can be left out if you are overseeding an established lawn. Can anyone else advise here?

Also, look into using peat moss when you overseed. The idea is to lightly cover the seed to help it stay moist.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Thank you all for the recommendations. I'm going to narrow the scope of the plan to late summer/early fall 2018 for now to get the best plan of attack:

1. Dethatch lawn
2. Lay the Hogan Blend Tall Fescue overseed ($150 estimate for 50lb of seed) - With approximately 2,000 sq feet I'm not sure if 50lb is too much. Are there any risks of too much seed when overseeding?
3. Apply Tenacity ($60 for 8oz) at seed down as well as a starter fertilizer (it looks like Scotts starter food for $20ish has pretty good reviews)
4. 30 days later apply Tenacity again
5. 60 days after seed down apply Prodiamine ($65 for 5lb jug)

This plan looks to be around $300 for a rough estimate which doesn't seem bad as I'm sure I would have some products left over for the next season. I looked into the Poa Constrictor but it was a little on the expensive side at $145. Would the Tenacity and Prodiamine do a good job of preventing Poa in the spring?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

> 1/2. So Tenacity will act as a pre-emergent for weeds but won't effect the germination of my overseed? Interesting. I didn't know that was possible, but that would be perfect. Does Tenacity prevent poa annua? I didn't see it listed in the description I read of the product.


Correct. And yes it will help along with the prodiamine to control Poa in the Spring. Keep in mind it is a preventer and not a killer.



> 3. Do you have any recommendation for a good starter to put down when overseeding?


Any should do. Scotts will be good. I know in the US, you can buy the Scott's with mesotrione in it (the ai in Tenacity). This would save some money - only need one product instead of the fert AND Tenacity. I've never used it because it isn't available in Canada (neither is Tenacity but I have sourced it), so maybe others on here have used it and can attest to its effectiveness.



> 4. I actually do have an irrigation system that really helps in the summer and could be beneficial when overseeding


I'm a little jealous!

Your plan is starting to come together!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Prodiamine does help control POA annua, but I'm not sure about trivialis. Normally, Tenacity is used for post emergent control and, as such, is not usually used in conjunction with a traditional pre emergent like prodiamine-at least as far as I know. When seeding, Tenacity is used for its ability to act like a short-term pre-emergent.

Two risks of using too much seed are wasting your money and increasing susceptibility for disease. Hogan's will advise regarding how much seed you need (I can't remember rates off the top of my head), but you won't need anything close to 50 pounds.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

social port said:


> Prodiamine does help control POA annua, but I'm not sure about trivialis. Normally, Tenacity is used for post emergent control and, as such, is not usually used in conjunction with a traditional pre emergent like prodiamine-at least as far as I know. When seeding, Tenacity is used for its ability to act like a short-term pre-emergent.
> 
> Two risks of using too much seed are wasting your money and increasing susceptibility for disease. Hogan's will advise regarding how much seed you need (I can't remember rates off the top of my head), but you won't need anything close to 50 pounds.


Thanks!

I believe you also recommended peat moss when overseeding. Would peat moss also be good to place over seeding bare spots? As mentioned before, the back yard has a lot of bare spots from the dog. Previously I haven't had a lot of success re-seeding these areas (however in the past I never used a starter fertilizer, so that may help). So this fall when I re-seed these bare spots I'm hoping to have some more success.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jaygrizzle said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > Prodiamine does help control POA annua, but I'm not sure about trivialis. Normally, Tenacity is used for post emergent control and, as such, is not usually used in conjunction with a traditional pre emergent like prodiamine-at least as far as I know. When seeding, Tenacity is used for its ability to act like a short-term pre-emergent.
> ...


Jay, the peat moss is even better for the bare areas, so, yes, I would use it on the bare areas as well. You want just a very light layer. It can take a while to get it wet when watering the first time, but it tends to stay moist once wet. That's why it is so helpful when seeding.

I hope that adding Starter Fert will help with the bare areas, but if you have had consistent trouble with these areas, there may be a problem under the surface. 
Use a screwdriver to check for large rocks.
A collection of smaller rocks can also be detrimental.
I suppose that there are several additional explanations as well, but I would start there.
Also, when you seed those areas, rough up the soil. I have found that a garden weasel (at Lowe's) works very well for smaller areas.

And check out this thread for help with your dog 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1558


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## Miller_Low_Life (Apr 12, 2017)

It's always fun starting out. When I first moved in I was in a similar position. 
I didn't feel comfortable so I actually had TruGreen do my yard the first two years. They even did my aeration.
My purpose of this was to get them to take care of the weeds for me because I felt like I would kill my whole yard. (which is trendy now).
Once I gained a little bit more knowledge, which started through watching LCN videos, I really started to look into organics. It became less and less about the grass and more for the soil for me.
That being said it took about 3 years from switching off of TruGreen to see my hard work start to payoff.

*I would focus on Your Front Yard:*
Spring
I would use Prodiamine in the Spring right when your soil temp gets to 55. If not a little before just to be safe. (I have to do my curbs a couple of weeks before the rest of the yard.)
Not needed but I like to put down Corn Gluten a couple of weeks after that. It gives me a little bit of Nitrogen Boost and more pre-emergent. 
The most important thing you can do in the spring is keep up on the mowing. If you're going with TTTF, mow at your highest setting, 2-3 times a week. I notice the best results by increasing my mowing this year.
On Memorial Day I like to put on a heavy dose of Milorganite.
Summer
Now the summer I just like to focus on watering. 
Typically I reduce my mowing to once a week or less.
Pete with GCI Academy preaches about this. Let the grass grow and shade itself.
Fall
Now here's my favorite season. Aerate and pick a high quality grass seed. The most expensive item I purchase is seed.
Make sure to keep it watered and I throw down more Milo or Ringer.
Mowing will increase again to 2 times a week.

As far as your current state you're going to want to spot spray the weeds that you have. I'm still pretty much a noob and use roundup. I'm guessing there's better philosophies in this forum for spraying weeds.
Eventually over the next couple of years you will see your yard out compete your weeds.

Sorry this was kind of long. I just know it works for me. That's the fun in lawn care. Trial and Error.


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## Anthony Drexler (Apr 23, 2018)

This is my schedule...

March Check PH, and Supplement Accordingly
April Fertilize, Crabrass Pre-Emergent, Spot Spray Weeds.
May Fertilize, Crabrass Pre-Emergent, Spot Spray Weeds
June Apply Kick Start or some sort of RGS, Preventative Fungus Control.
July Grub Control, and Surface Feeding Insect.
August Nutsedge Control.
September	Aerate, Overseed, starter fertilizer, & Love you Soil.
November Fertilize


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Thanks all for the input.

I am thinking about trying to spray for weeds one last time before late August/early September when I plan to overseed. I bought a post-emergent product called Wipe-Out Crabgrass Killer plus concentrate by Green Light which active ingredients are 2,4-d, dimehtylamine slat, quinclorac and dicamba. I sprayed the whole yard a little over 2 weeks again and saw pretty good results, so I was thinking about a 2nd application.

But I am a little worried due to current weather conditions. It has been in the mid 90s the last week or so. We finally got some rain and the temp is around 90 today. However there is a break in the forecast with rain forecasted as well as temperature in the low 80s for the next 5 days. Then the temps are forecasted to bump back above 90.

2 questions:

1.. If I sprayed for weeds tomorrow with temps in the low 80s and then another 4 days of similar temps, but temps above 90 after that, I am risking damage to the established grass?

2. Will the weeds even be actively growing? (aka will the weed killer be effective or am I wasting my time)


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

1. The product label should always be the final word; but many of the herbicides that I am familiar with can be safely applied at the recommended rate in temps below 85. If you are spraying above 85, then you are risking the desirable turf.
If you spray one day with temps at 80 and, on the following day, temps go back up to the 90s, you should be ok. I hope that answers your question.
2. The best answer that I can give you is that if you are seeing green weeds now, then you can spray them. I don't think it will be a waste provided that you have the right herbicide for the job.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Hi all, hoping to get some clarification regarding Tenacity.

Per suggestions, I was going to apply Tenacity at seed down later this year (this includes overseeding some already established lawn as well as re-seeding some bare spots).

However, per the label of Tenacity it states the following: "For residential lawn applications: unless renovating and/or re-seeding the home lawn, avoid broadcast applications of Tenacity for pre and post-emergent weed control because undesirable whitening of some turfgrasses may occur."

I'm kind of confused by this statement as it seems to contradict the whole point of a pre-emergent. It seems to me that you would definitely want to broadcast a pre-emergent over the whole lawn in order to prevent weeds. I understand that there is a potentially for the Tenacity to turn your good grass white, but from my understanding it is only temporary. Does this statement on the label indicate that you should only use Tenancity when overseeding and/or re-seeding?


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## jurkewycmi (Jun 3, 2018)

jaygrizzle said:


> Hi all, hoping to get some clarification regarding Tenacity.
> 
> Per suggestions, I was going to apply Tenacity at seed down later this year (this includes overseeding some already established lawn as well as re-seeding some bare spots).
> 
> ...


I saw GCI Turf use Tenacity as a post emergent spot spray. I believe the label is indicating spot spraying as the primary use other than overseed/re-seed.

If a normal broadcast pre emergent is needed - prodiamine, dithiopyr etc, if a broadcast post emergent is needed - 3 in 1 like Weed b Gone, triclopyr etc


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Earlier in the spring I had 4 relatively small trees that I cut down to the stump. I drilled holes in the stumps and filled them with epsom salt in a effort to kill them. I'm not sure if it was 100% effective, but now I am looking to get rid of the stumps and plant grass where they were.

Yesterday I dug up one of the stumps. I filled the hole with some left over topsoil that I had from a project last year and then used my tamp to compact the soil in the hole to try and prevent any settling. The topsoil that I used has been outside for over a year and there were no weeds growing on it, but I assume there is a decent possibility that there would be some weed seeds in there.

As a preface to my questions below, I have seed on hand that I recently purchased from the Hogan Company and the extended forecast for the next 15 days is showing highs in the high 80s and night time lows in the high 60s. I have an irrigation system that I could set on timers to water whenever.

So a few questions for TLF on what I should do:

A) throw down the seed today
B) wait until mid August/late September to seed it which is when I'm planning to overseed
C) spray the topsoil with Round up to make sure there isn't any weeds and then wait 30 days to seed. It's a pretty small area so I'm a little worried that spraying round up would kill the grass around it.
D) any better recommendation from you all as I'm not really sure what to do


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

jaygrizzle said:


> Hi all, hoping to get some clarification regarding Tenacity.
> 
> Per suggestions, I was going to apply Tenacity at seed down later this year (this includes overseeding some already established lawn as well as re-seeding some bare spots).
> 
> ...


did you get any clarification on this? I bought some tenacity and was wondering the exact same thing


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Bkell101 said:


> jaygrizzle said:
> 
> 
> > Hi all, hoping to get some clarification regarding Tenacity.
> ...


@jurkewycmi made the clarification in a previous post.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jaygrizzle said:


> So a few questions for TLF on what I should do:
> 
> A) throw down the seed today
> B) wait until mid August/late September to seed it which is when I'm planning to overseed
> ...


I'm surprised by those temps. That is great for summer. Here's my take.
Wait until Mid August/late September. Seed everything at one time. There is still plenty of summer heat and humidity in store.
You don't need to spray with RoundUp unless you have weed growth. Round Up does not act as a pre-emergent. Also, there is no reseed interval with glyphosate (I've seeded the same day as applying glyphosate).

You could consider applying tenacity as a pre-emergent for these bare areas. One app might carry you until the end of summer. But simply monitoring the area every three days or so for weed growth seems reasonable as well. If you have weed growth, you can hand pull in areas that small.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Also, if you do end up spraying Round Up, be very careful. It will kill almost everything that is green. It really doesn't take much to accidentally kill some desirable grass.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Thanks SP. I just have that new seed that came in and it's burning a hole in my pocket as I really want to plant it. Haha I will go ahead and wait to seed and just hand pull any weeds I see.

Does anyone have any recommendations for bags of topsoil? I would probably only need a bag or so to fill the other 3 holes when I dig out those stumps. Most of the bagged topsoil gets really bad reviews, but there is a 40 lbs bag called Earth Gro that Home Depot sells that looks like it may be the best. Anyone use it?


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