# Is Bermudagrass overrated?



## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

This is more of a philosophical question, so I thought here might be more appropriate.

We've heard the great stories about Bermuda - it's an alpha grass, is basically invincible, takes the heat, grows through anything, can be low cut, etc. etc. However, I've come to realize that Bermuda might not be all it's cracked up to be.

Think about the negatives now. It doesn't really feel as nice to the touch as some other grass types. They say it grows super fast, but in my experience, it's really not as fast as you'd think unless you have tremendous conditions. They say it takes the hot sun well, and this is true, but only to an extent before it weakens and loses its luster. Its blades are only really green on the upper 20%, which makes it really easy to scalp. If it gets a bit too long (think of how your neighbor's lawn looks), it can look like a straggly mess. It can't tolerate shade, and don't even get me started about the temperature. Once the faintest chill is in the air, Bermuda calls it a year and starts to pack it in. And then you have the winter months and months of ugly, brown Bermuda.

So is Bermuda overrated?


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

When are you upgrading?


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

For me, in extreme southern Ohio, yes. Of course it's overrated. However, this is because I made the ultra-newb mistake years ago of thinking all of the dormant winter grass in my area was bermuda, when in fact it was Zoysia. I know, super naïve and dumb. But, I just wasn't familiar at all with warm season grass, and didn't do my research.

So, fast forward to now, and for me, Zoysia is superior to bermuda in care by leaps and bounds, but only ever so slightly superior in appearance, at least when properly maintained, and certain times of the year it's the other way around. There's just something about the appearance of thick, low-cut bermuda that looks incredible. Granted, maybe it's because I really didn't grow up with it, but the carpet-like nature you can achieve is much better than any cool season grass lawn. Plus, I'm a golfer, and that "fairway" look is so enticing.

With that said, I'm getting more and more impatient with it's upkeep and downsides. I got absolutely hammered with Spring Dead Spot this season, after an unexpected cold and wet February. Then, I had all sorts of equipment issues with my triplex, causing me to not be able to truly scalp properly, and stay on top of the crazy May-June growth surge. This created a fight the rest of the year with constant height resets, as I was impatiently waiting for the Dead Spot areas to fill back in, unable to use PGR. Now for the last month it's been seedheads EVERYWHERE due to the late warm fall we're having and no doubt the PGR rebound effect.

All in all, and to sum up, if I would have had the $$$ in the beginning, (because we all know Zoysia isn't cheap) I would have seeded my entire lawn with Zenith, kept the fungicide handy and blades sharp, and have a near perfect lawn at this point.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I would argue that zoysia is similarly overrated, too. It fixes some issues bermuda has, and picks up its own. People have been sold or sold on zoysia for years as a premium luxury turf that is an upgrade, which is a little stretch.

Many times I've had people stop to ask about the grass, and then tell me they have zoysia, but it looks awful, or doesn't want to grow like my yard, etc. I think people get duped thinking zoysia fixes their woes, only to find out you need fungus control like crazy, and can't treat it like scotts and Home Depot market you too. It's not as forgiving.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

jayhawk said:


> When are you upgrading?


 :lol:



andymac7 said:


> All in all, and to sum up, if I would have had the $$$ in the beginning, (because we all know Zoysia isn't cheap) I would have seeded my entire lawn with Zenith, kept the fungicide handy and blades sharp, and have a near perfect lawn at this point.


That's an interesting take on Zoysia vs. Bermuda. I really have not experience with Zoysia, so it's good to get some perspective from someone else.



FATC1TY said:


> I would argue that zoysia is similarly overrated, too. It fixes some issues bermuda has, and picks up its own. People have been sold or sold on zoysia for years as a premium luxury turf that is an upgrade, which is a little stretch.
> 
> Many times I've had people stop to ask about the grass, and then tell me they have zoysia, but it looks awful, or doesn't want to grow like my yard, etc. I think people get duped thinking zoysia fixes their woes, only to find out you need fungus control like crazy, and can't treat it like scotts and Home Depot market you too. It's not as forgiving.


Interesting to get a contrarian view about Zoysia as well. 🤔


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## ShadowGuy (Nov 20, 2020)

At least in my location Kikuyu is more of an alpha grass than bermuda. My Kikuyu grows faster, spreads farther and stays greener. Kikuyu is so alpha, most of you in the US can't even legally grow it. :lol:

Given I have not given bermuda a fair shot, as I have a nameless common variety in patches around my kikuyu. I am sure the more designer hybrid varieties are much better.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

FATC1TY said:


> I would argue that zoysia is similarly overrated, too. It fixes some issues bermuda has, and picks up its own. People have been sold or sold on zoysia for years as a premium luxury turf that is an upgrade, which is a little stretch.
> 
> Many times I've had people stop to ask about the grass, and then tell me they have zoysia, but it looks awful, or doesn't want to grow like my yard, etc. I think people get duped thinking zoysia fixes their woes, only to find out you need fungus control like crazy, and can't treat it like scotts and Home Depot market you too. It's not as forgiving.


Yeah @FATC1TY I would actually agree with you on most points. But for me, at least in my upper transition zone, Zoysia is the way to go. Yes, I've learned you need to treat for things like lawn rust and zoysia patch, but I put out Myclo in the early spring, and Propiconazole in June, and that was it. Perfectly green Zoysia. Notice also I mentioned sharp blades. I've learned this is an absolute must, due to the coarseness of the leaf blades, and the tendency for it to turn yellow-ish when under stress, namely, ripped to shreds by a rotary or a dull reel's bedknife.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

If I didn't have kids running all over my yard, I would want my whole yard to be Empire Zoysia. It is so much easier to maintain regarding mowing frequency and fertilizer. It stripes well and looks good from 3/8" to 2" HOC. I have not had the fungus issues others have had so I love it. But life being life, you can't beat how quickly Bermuda recovers from the weekend soccer match, spilled gasoline, or plastic bounce houses sitting on it all day. I have totally screwed the pooch so many time with my Tifway 419 and it just keeps chugging along and taking it all in stride. I don't think my Zoysia would be as forgiving. A lot of the negatives mentioned in the OP can be remedied by just maintaining Bermuda under .5" HOC and keeping up with the mowing (PGR helps). I think it feels REALLY good to walk through barefooted when mowed at 3/8".


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

I definitely understand the 20% green and scalping is frustrating. I'm going over to full Bermuda and I know with the proper care it will perform light years better than st Augustine. You HAVE to use pgr.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

I wholeheartedly second using PGR for Bermuda. Heaven forbid, if I have similar SDS next season, I'm just gonna throw tarps/blankets over the weak areas and spray PGR on my Yukon as soon as humanly possible.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Redtwin said:


> If I didn't have kids running all over my yard, I would want my whole yard to be Empire Zoysia.


I know next to nothing about Zoysia, but I recall that my HOA allows us to have either Bermuda or Zoysia lawns. So when I looked up Empire Zoysia just now, I saw that it scored lower than Emerald Zoyzia in almost every category of NTEP testing (overall quality, color, leaf texture, etc.). Have you compared these types side-by-side?


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## potterwc (Jul 1, 2019)

My 2 cents is bermuda is underrated in a lot of areas. Outside of shade, its hard to beat most of the hybrids, especially if mown between 0.5 to 0.75" with use of PGR. If you can buy it in a seed at a big box store that is excluded from my opinion. Arden 15 and Riviera are nice if you're looking for a seed type...I have flirted with going with zeon zoysia in my back yard due to a shaded area but cannot get over how good my Tif419 looks after a fresh mow and how low maintenance it has proven to be.


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## potterwc (Jul 1, 2019)

Phids said:


> Redtwin said:
> 
> 
> > If I didn't have kids running all over my yard, I would want my whole yard to be Empire Zoysia.
> ...


In my area I have seen a lot of Zeon Zoysia. I have seen it and Empire side by side and I would go Zeon every time.


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## UFG8RMIKE (Apr 21, 2019)

Empire is very low maint and looks great cut once a week, with a rotary to boot. Looks better cut with a reel but not really enough to justify the difference in maintenance of the reel. All it requires is an annual reset/scalp and to be fed a couple times in the spring and summer, and routine bi monthly fungicide when it cools down.

I'm building a new home on 1 ac and having a real hard time going with anything else but I am currently leaning towards Bermuda , solely due to the need to eliminate cogon grass currently covering the property. Apparently the stuff is nearlyimpossible to get rid of and I believe the only way will be to routinely cut at a fraction of an inch and choke it out with Bermuda


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

potterwc said:


> Phids said:
> 
> 
> > Redtwin said:
> ...


I have not done a comparison nor have I reviewed any of the testing as I was limited on my choices since I wanted to match my neighbor. I can tell you it has been flooded and completely under water several times this season and I have not had any issues. How many Matrella lawns have been riddled with fungus this season without being flooded? None of my neighbors who have Empire have had any fungus issues over several seasons though mine has only been installed for one season. My assessment of Empire is based on my real world experience as compared to Tifway 419 and a friend's TifTuf. The color is no where near 419 and the blade is courser, but it is WAY lower maintenance than Bermuda.


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## CorpRaider (Aug 23, 2021)

As someone who is trying to blast it out of my yard, it's hard to kill, that's for sure.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Phids said:


> Once the faintest chill is in the air, Bermuda calls it a year and starts to pack it in. And then you have the winter months and months of ugly, brown Bermuda.
> 
> So is Bermuda overrated?


I'll post you a zeon/emerald Thanksgiving pic to compare to that dead brown look


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Just a thought... I wonder if all we need is a shift in our thinking about dormant grass in general?

I mean, my dad absolutely refuses to plant Zoysia, simply on the basis that it goes dormant a month or so before all of the cool season stuff. Yet, he loves Pin Oaks, which not only go dormant like every other deciduous tree, but have two separate leaf drops (fall and spring), hang onto those crispy brown leaves all winter, and drop acorns everywhere spawning baby trees.

I just don't get the hate, I guess. I've fully embraced the golden tan, as it's simply a sign of the seasons, like when the corn and beans turn. What's the big deal? Lol.


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## Bombers (Jul 14, 2020)

There's good and bad with all grasses. If everything is perfect, we wouldn't have all these cultural practices, equipment/tools, and chemical products behind it. The motivation to improve turf quality week in and week out is what keeps us nutheads going. If it was just straight mowing it would be boring. Also biased towards bermuda because I grew up envying the low clean cut from golf courses and athletic fields. Also don't mind the brown. I would be burnt out mowing year round. The off-season gives me time to enjoy other things and more of an itch/motivation once the season starts again. Not to mention more money spent and faster equipment wear and tear.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Cool season mowing in dec, Jan, Feb if it's cold enough to snow?


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

I have not experienced any of the OP's suggestions with regards to Bermuda. Likely references to some weaker varieties. Latitude 36 and Celebration for example, are out of this world, incomparable if you will. Neither one ever went dormant for me, they both stayed green year-round. Princess 77 on a fairway cut is requires far less maintenance than most other varieties. Without PGR, the growth rate is almost too much. Nothing on earth can destroy it (literally), grows on a rock if you need it to.

I do agree there are softer grasses, but for me, at ~ 3/4 inch, I'd personally be hard-pressed to tell a difference.


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## Sonoran Desert Lawn (Aug 22, 2020)

As someone that lives in constant 115 to 123 degree desert heat in the summer, bermuda is king. No other grass would ever survive that heat.

My bermuda is common, but with PGR it has been transformed into an appearance of hybrid. The grass looks just as close and as good as some hybrid in neighboring areas.

In the winter, I do not have to mow, yet it still stays green because our lows only hit 40s to 50s. Free winter green without work? I will take it!

Cons: 
Yes, scalping is terrible, but as mentioned previously, the lower mows help. On sports turf that is about 1.25 or more, it is indeed a pain. Don't miss a mow.

Runners are a pro and a con in my opinion. Runners help fill and give a tight woven carpet without any overseed needed. However, stolons tend to run over sidewalks, pathways, etc. and require verticutting.


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## Buffalolawny (Nov 24, 2018)

Yes.

And i think the owners of these types of lawns push too much growth so that they are forced into mid season reno's and fighting disease caused by excessive "golf course thinking" practice.

Dry heat zone - low cut couch / bermuda 
optional high cut - Buffalo / St Aug

Humid heat zone - zoysia

Kikuyu - Never ever plant unless you like to be killed by your neighbours. or you live on an island. :fight:


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

Phids said:


> It doesn't really feel as nice to the touch as some other grass types.


Mine feels better than 90% of grass I've ever felt. KBG is really the only one I have personally felt that feels better.



Phids said:


> They say it grows super fast, but in my experience, it's really not as fast as you'd think unless you have tremendous conditions.


From late spring to early fall I have to mow, trim, and edge my bermuda every 2 days or it will take over and mid summer every 2 days is almost not enough. Not sure how much faster you think it should grow. I actually wish it didn't grow so fast cause I really hate mowing every 2 days.



Phids said:


> They say it takes the hot sun well, and this is true, but only to an extent before it weakens and loses its luster.


Not sure what you mean about this one, my lawn looks the best the hottest moths of the year. The hardest part is keeping it mowed so it doesn't look bad.



Phids said:


> Its blades are only really green on the upper 20%, which makes it really easy to scalp. If it gets a bit too long (think of how your neighbor's lawn looks), it can look like a straggly mess.


More like 50%-60% if you are doing it right but I agree, it is the worst thing about bermuda. That having to mow every 2 days deal applies here too



Phids said:


> Once the faintest chill is in the air, Bermuda calls it a year and starts to pack it in. And then you have the winter months and months of ugly, brown Bermuda.


Yes, also annoying, especially if you have every lived somewhere where the grass is green most of the year. But the only alternative, at lest for me, is Fescue. There's no way I would have a Fescue lawn where I live. I would have to have an irrigation system, spray fungicide very often because of the amount of water it would take to keep it green through summer, mow it 4"+, and overseed it every year, no thanks.

There are cons with every grass type, you just have to pick the one that has the least amount of cons for the area you are wanting to grow it.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Nope, not overrated at all. Probably the most versatile warm season grass that can be grown successfully in a broad variety of climates and planting zones. Heights can vary from a ultra dwarf putting green to a taller rough. It comes in a huge variety of colors and textures.

The only thing it lacks is a better shade tolerance. But it can be somewhat worked around to an extent at a slightly "taller" height, by properly thining out and raising a tree's canopy regularly, and making sure it gets properly watered and fertilized. Does that completely "fix" the shade shortcomings of bermuda grass, no but it can help it survive better. Imo if you want a bunch of shade, then you don't want bermuda.

As for a poor feel, too stringy, scalping, early dormancy, late green up, and other complaints mentioned ... At a minimum I'd say: dial in the watering better, properly fertilize, mow/cut more often, mow/cut towards the middle of the recommended hoc range. Go lower/go taller and apects of care and quality change.

Probably one of the biggest things I've noticed with caring for bermuda is that there is NO such thing as a 1 size fits all "answer".

Soil types alone change all kinds of aspects for grass care. Regionally speaking, just think how different soils are. Nice "garden" type soil, clay, sand, loam, rocky, caliche, salty etc etc.. Each soil type requires a different care program.

Then you have regional climates to think about. Think about the weather/climate differences from the Atlantic to the Gulf to the Pacific and all areas in between or around. Most regions have microclimates within them that can vary from one side of town to the other. Sooo many factors to consider: sun, rain, heat, HOT, coastal, desert, foothills etc etc etc.

Does bermuda grow the "same" in all soils and or climates, no; but it does a pretty good job of filling a lot of needs and wants if cared for appropriately for the region it's in. If there were a "better", more versatile, bang for the buck grass to cover all that bermuda does .... I'm pretty sure the majority of golf courses, sports fields, parks, and residential yards coast to coast/region to region would switch and be planted with it.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

andymac7 said:


> Just a thought... I wonder if all we need is a shift in our thinking about dormant grass in general?


I grew up in the North, where lawns would only go dormant under really cold temperatures, and usually then it was all covered with snow anyway. Once I moved to the South I thought it strange that the lawns would go dormant even though it wasn't nearly as cold.

This isn't to say that I dislike dormant grass completely, but once I became a homeowner with a yard I realized how the dormant season a) looks a lot worse compared to the growing season (being Mr. Obvious here) and b) seems to last a long time. Basically, from November until May (in Georgia), Bermuda for me is either dormant brown or some variation of brown competing with green. That's a long chunk of the calendar. I do completely agree with @Bombers that it's nice to have an off-season when you don't have to do much to a lawn, but six months of brown in the lawn gets to look unappealing.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Cory said:


> From late spring to early fall I have to mow, trim, and edge my bermuda every 2 days or it will take over and mid summer every 2 days is almost not enough. Not sure how much faster you think it should grow. I actually wish it didn't grow so fast cause I really hate mowing every 2 days.


You're right that established Bermuda grows at a decent rate, but I was thinking of places I plugged with a Pro Plugger, especially near the edge of a lawn (e.g. near borders or edging). There were several 1-2" sections that I wanted my Bermuda to fill in this summer, but which didn't. for me. Now I'm heading into winter with some ugly gaps in my lawn.



> Not sure what you mean about this one, my lawn looks the best the hottest moths of the year. The hardest part is keeping it mowed so it doesn't look bad.


I think this would be a different story if I had an installed irrigation system. We've had enough rain here to prevent drought, but we'll have some stretches of a week or so during July/August without much precipitation. During those times, I can tell my Bermuda is struggling under the heat. This isn't to say that some other type of grass would do better, but that Bermuda will still get wounded during the hot summer months.



> There are cons with every grass type, you just have to pick the one that has the least amount of cons for the area you are wanting to grow it.


I think that's pretty much correct in the end.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Phids said:


> This is more of a philosophical question, so I thought here might be more appropriate.
> 
> We've heard the great stories about Bermuda - it's an alpha grass, is basically invincible, takes the heat, grows through anything, can be low cut, etc. etc. However, I've come to realize that Bermuda might not be all it's cracked up to be.
> 
> ...


If it's not awesome underfoot, you aren't mowing low enough, often enough. But that is probably the biggest downside, all the mowing in the heat.

Input costs are pretty high with Bermuda, but I think that's true for many other warm-season grasses as well. Even Fescue requires some overseeding and plenty of water to stay looking good in my area. What you may save in fertilizer input, you will spend in fungicide and other mitigations.

As far as the dormant season is concerned, there's a whole thread on here dedicated to PRG overseeds of Bermuda lawns. Our lawns look as good or better in the winter as opposed to the summer. Stripes, barefoot appeal, the whole deal. Again. the downside here is cost, but that gets less and less significant the smaller your lawn is.

I think Bermuda is under-rated. It gets sold as the "base" option. My lawn is the basic Tif419 sod laid by the builder. It dominates the area, and that's only because of the fertility and maintenance inputs. There's nothing special about the grass itself. My back lawn is at least 40% common Bermuda. Still looks fantastic. If you are willing to reel mow at least 2x week, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a better turfgrass for a home lawn.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Phids said:


> andymac7 said:
> 
> 
> > Just a thought... I wonder if all we need is a shift in our thinking about dormant grass in general?
> ...


Yeah, I get where you're coming from @Phids, I'm just not sure why we don't apply the same logic to other plants. Consider your first phrase- "I grew up in the North". That's very telling. I wonder if a person from, say, Miami, drives up and sees all of our dormant deciduous trees, and how they're brown 6 months out of the year, or more, and has the same feeling as you do about the southern grass? But yet, those of use who are used to the ugly brown "tree skeletons" we see for months don't think a thing of it. Case in point, my flowering cherry lost it's leaves back in August for goodness sake, and won't bloom again until almost next April. That's about 7 months of dormancy! Why do I put up with this? Lol.

Somewhere along the line, most of us were conditioned to believe that grass is "supposed" to be green year 'round, but trees get a free pass. I'm just wondering why, that's all .


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

andymac7 said:


> Somewhere along the line, most of us were conditioned to believe that grass is "supposed" to be green year 'round, but trees get a free pass. I'm just wondering why, that's all .


Alright, so this is a bit off topic, but it sounds like defoliation for a cherry tree in Ohio in August is not natural. I would consider both environmental factors (root growth blockage, too much/too little water, etc.) and disease factors that might be causing that. You're right that it's bad to look at a bare tree from August until April, so if it were my tree, I'd play gardening CSI and try to figure out what's to blame.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

fwiw..i don't know a cherry that doesn't drop leaves in Atlanta in August...by end of, it's naked. It's always first


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

jayhawk said:


> fwiw..i don't know a cherry that doesn't drop leaves in Atlanta in August...by end of, it's naked. It's always first


I couldn't find information about when flowering cherry trees naturally lose their leaves, but I did see several people online talk about how they regularly get hit with disease/pests. Apparently this can cause defoliation as early as July. I personally would have an issue with a tree in my yard dropping leaves that early, so this would be comparable to lawns that have an extremely long dormant season.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Yeah, apologies to the OP about veering off topic a bit, but I suppose this is vaguely connected to dormant bermuda .

But @Phids, as @jayhawk confirmed the same issue in Atlanta, I suspect flowering cherries just get a bit of heat stress and start packing it in near the end of the summer. Granted, Ohio doesn't quite get the heat Atlanta does, but I'm about as far south as you can get in the state, plus in the humid/low elevation river valley. It gets pretty suppressive at times, and this summer was no exception. And, it's not only my cherry that dropped, it's virtually all of them in the area. Other species that drop very early are cottonwood, walnut, and black locust. Not that I would plant any of these three in my yard, personally .


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