# Just for fun, and to learn a bit



## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

Just for fun, and to learn a bit, I have been trying to grow grass seed in a small cup or pot indoors. Last few tries have been using ss6000 and generic 'potting soil'.

Using a 5 oz plastic cup, filled about half full of the potting soil, and seed 1/4 inch or so below the surface. Germinates after about 5 days, and grows well for a week or two. Then the color starts to fade, and the grass dies off. I weigh the container daily, and water as required to keep it moist but not flooded. I have tried using a larger container, a smaller container, and I have tried adding a 'Jobes' fertilizer stick, but none of these variations make any difference. It's as if after the seed depletes it's internal stores, it can't draw anything from the soil.

Setting it out in the sun seems to make no difference. A while back, I tried using my 'local' soil (clay) but that turned to cement and didn't work either. Any ideas why I can't keep new grass alive for more than a couple weeks?


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Very interesting. I had a similar situation. I grew some KBG in tupperware that did exactly as you describe. Thought maybe the potting soil held too much moisture. Drilled holes in the bottom, put out in the sun, etc. Just kept fading.

However the stuff I put in a 6" terra pot and left outside is going gangbusters.

Maybe the plastic keeps the soil from breathing??


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## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

Sounds like an interesting hypothesis. I'll have to see if I can dig up a small clay pot and give that a try.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

When I overseeded I made two seed cups out of standard Solo Cups, also with potting soil, probably 4-5" deep soil. I cut some holes at the bottom so it drains. They live on my back porch and receive 4-6 hours of sun per day (not anymore because stupid winter).

I tended them nicely when they were seedlings, I kept them trimmed to about 1-1.5" for several weeks, they started tillering pretty heavily after just a handful of weeks. At one point I put some "Shake n Feed" on them (I think it's 12-4-8) which seemed to spur more growth, but other than that I haven't done anything besides water. Growing like gangbusters.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

What is your lighting like? Natural sunlight is incredibly intense. To simulate it indoors you need a couple of LED fluorescent lights and then place the plant within a few inches of the tubes. That doesnt even come close to sunlight but its a start.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Here are my little pots. You can see the brown tips. I had them outside on a bench and they were doing fine. Put them in a tray and things started going south. I tried to bottom water and maybe either kept them soggy or under watered if the roots were long enough.

The super brown ones up top are transplants from the Tupperware container I mentioned earlier.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

What are your lights? How close to the lights are the pots?

I'd attach an image to show you my setup but I have never been able to insert images on this forum.

I use a single tube, 5000 lumen shop light positioned about 3 inches above my pots. Color temp is 4000k which is a bit on the yellow side but thats all I could find. Preferably a 5000k to 6500k bulb is better to more closely approach the color temperature of the sun.

If your pots are more than a few inches away from the lights, it's too dim to support growth.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Oh yeah mine definitely isn't set up for that. Just the lights above my work bench. I had been moving them outside in direct sun during the day and back in the shop at night since I thought it would start getting cold. Might just put them back outside and see what happens.


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## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

I had been putting mine outside most days, but getting too cold now. Best I will be able to do is sun coming through a window.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Here's some more data.

I have a PAR meter. Its basically a light meter with a spectral filter over the sensor that restricts its measurements to those colors needed by the plant, i.e. Photosynthetic Available Radiation, PAR.
https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/mq-200-quantum-separate-sensor-with-handheld-meter/#product-tab-description

With the sensor sitting about 3 inches away from the LED tube, it measures around 300.

Going to this website:
http://clearskycalculator.com/quantumsensor.htm
The calculated outdoor summertime PAR level at noon for my lat/long is roughly 2000.

So my indoor light, at a distance of 3 inches from the light fixture is 300/2000 = 15%. My light puts out just 15% of the radiation on a sunny day at my location. That's like trying to grow grass in the shade.

At a distance of 1 ft from the light, the intensity drops to just 5% of summertime outdoor sunlight and at 3 ft away from the light it's a measly 1.5% of natural light.

So, if you really want to grow grass indoors, get yourself a cheap LED shoplight preferably with multiple emitters and as high of luminosity as possible and place it as close to the growing grass you can get. Too close and the heat from the LEDs will probably cook the grass. Too far and the light will be too dim. Its a tradeoff.

LED shoplights are brighter than plain ol' fluorescent lights because the LEDs emit all their light downward toward the grass. Regular fluorescent bulbs emit light in all directions and the reflectors on those fixtures are pretty bad so most of the light never makes it to the grass.

Then, next spring, when its time to plant the grass outside, you'll have to slowly acclimate the grass to the much higher solar radiation or else the grass with get sunburn and die.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Figured out how to attach pictures.

Here's my set up.

The pot on the left is Mazama KBG
The middle flat is Poa Supina
The right pot is SPF30 KBG

The grass has been growing about a month now. The Mazama is the fastest growing. It's had to be "mowed" a couple times already. The Poa Supina has been the slowest to sprout and grow and the SPF30 is in the middle of the pack. The pots are filled with generic big box store bagged topsoil.


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## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

Great info ****o1. Based on that, my grass is certainly not getting enough light.


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## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

Great info ****o1. Based on that, my grass is certainly not getting enough light.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@****o1 Glad you got the images figured out!

Mine are a mix of SPF-30 and Turf Blue HGT. I just put them back outside to see if that helps. I have trouble thinking it was a light issue as I didn't have them inside long enough. Hopefully they will rebound. These aren't test pots but I'd like to use them for plugs. Longer term, I think just pulling plugs from the yard itself is the best way to go and use pots for tests.

I'd like to follow your lawn journal if you have one. SPF 30 but also the Poa Supina. Heard it was great for shade, but not sure it would survive in southern Va.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Sorry, I dont have a journal. But I have the same concerns you do.

I have concerns that Poa Supina wont survive the summers here in NE Il. I've already put some plugs in some shady spots under the trees to see if it survives the winter and then next summer without irrigation. Those plugs have already doubled in size so I have hopes they'll survive. I have a horrible Poa Trivialis problem and I'm trying to see if Poa Supina can out compete it.

I have concerns about SPF30 not surviving the winter so it also has been plugged in a few sunny spots in the lawn to see what happens. Its supposed to have the same range as regular KBG so maybe I'm worrying for nothing.

I'm concerned about Mazama surviving the summers without irrigation. The pot I'm growing on the kitchen counter is meant to be plugged into the lawn this spring.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

I've actually done my own little experiment. I used a mix of compost and topsoil for my pots. Not sure that standard house plant potting mix is that great for this experiment as it loses moisture too fast. This is a southeast facing window which gives good sun until around 1pm. After that, I have grow lights set up to go on. I'm 17 days since seeding and as you can see, some are doing better than others. See below:


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Roger all.

I have the same understanding w/ SPF 30. Should be good to go. No experience with Mazama, but I know the Turf Blue HGT talks about being great in the transition zone. It was my first experience with KBG and I underestimated the water requirements. I thought it was dog urine spots initially so I was slow to correct. Also think I cut too high as the grass would matt down. Ended up with about 40% die off. Re-seeded this fall with a blend of HGT and SPF-30. We shall see


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I did the same thing back in August, mostly jus to see how my new seed would germinate. Also to see if it was a good time to overseed the lawn. Two of my plastic flower pots got so water logged after a heavy storm that the grass got moldy and soggy. I have a raised flower bed that I put pea gravel below Scott's lawn soil. I used Scott's Easy Seed, and it is still going good right now. I build this for my guinea pigs, so they could have a place to play without fertilizer being applied. I plan on adding a few flower pots in the spring, in case I decide to have extra grass for patching spots.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Deadlawn
I would bend those grow lights down, closer to the pots. It might improve growth.

Or do an experiment within an experiment. Bend one down and leave the other alone. See if it affects growth on the different halves of the flat.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

****o1 said:


> Deadlawn
> I would bend those grow lights down, closer to the pots. It might improve growth.
> 
> Or do an experiment within an experiment. Bend one down and leave the other alone. See if it affects growth on the different halves of the flat.


Do you really think I need more intense light? Here's a night picture for a different perspective:


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

My bet would be yes you do need more light. Artificial lighting doesnt hold a candle to the natural stuff. You say you have outside light from the window, which is good but i bet those indoor lights arent doing much.

Try an experiment with only one of the lights bent down. See what happens.

BTW what brand are those lights?


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

****o1 said:


> My bet would be yes you do need more light. Artificial lighting doesnt hold a candle to the natural stuff. You say you have outside light from the window, which is good but i bet those indoor lights arent doing much.
> 
> Try an experiment with only one of the lights bent down. See what happens.
> 
> BTW what brand are those lights?


This is the light I bought:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087PXWTCS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

Here's an update on my science fair project



The Mazama is by far the fastest growing of the bunch. It's already been "mowed" 4 times. The SPF30 is second and has been mowed 2 times. The Poa Supina is the slowest and has only just now begun to take off. It's been mowed just once.

The Mazama is the finest bladed of the bunch, followed by SPF30, followed by Poa Supina, though I'd be happy with any of them in my lawn. The Mazama is almost like the texture of fine fescue. I'm hoping it coarsens up as it matures.

Deadlawn
I bought one of those lights principally because i want to see how my shop light compares to it and because the corporate research director is pressuring me to move my project off of the kitchen countertop and into the basement where I have less room. Measuring its light output, its "roughly" comparable to my shop light. One head gives a PAR reading of 220 @ 4 inches. My shop light gives 330 @ 4 inches. Focusing all the heads in one spot gives 440 with 2 heads and 660 with 3 heads @ 4 inches. Pointing all the heads straight down gives 26 with 1 head, 54 with 2 heads and 78 with 3 heads @ 12 inches. So its no barnburner, even with 3 heads when compared to natural sunlight but its better than my shop light. For comparison, I went outside at noon on a bright November day and I got a 1700 PAR reading. So move the lighting closer if you dont have all the heads focused in one spot.

No matter how you spin it, indoor lighting doesnt hold a candle to the real thing. That is unless you install the huge metal halide lights used by hydroponic growers. But then you'd probably have the feds knocking on your door and I dont think they'd like hearing that you're just trying to grow grass.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

****o1 said:


> No matter how you spin it, indoor lighting doesnt hold a candle to the real thing. That is unless you install the huge metal halide lights used by hydroponic growers. But then you'd probably have the feds knocking on your door and I dont think they'd like hearing that you're just trying to grow grass.


LOL! Recreational weed is actually legal here in MA and there are legal dispenseries here that sell it. Growing your own is still illegal though.


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