# Throwing shade on Bermuda



## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

I'd love for this thread to be one day be a sticky for anyone to reference bermuda and shade.

A little history first: Sod laid dormant in the beginning of Feb '18. By April it was doing excellent! In fact, so good that it was a bit misleading. As others, like @Ware, have mentioned. Years of shade have a compounding effect on bermuda. It might be fine the first season from sod, but as time marches on it gets worse. Combine this with "unhealthy" shade practices and you'll end up with dirt... like me. It never really recovered from a mid-season scalp last year. Then, I overseeded with PRG. Which meant another scalp. And I dethatched to open up the canopy for seed. Then, Spring '19 I killed the PGR and realized there was pretty much zero bermuda left in this area.

Fast forward to today. I have since trimmed up the trees and this area is now receiving more light than ever before. However, I highly doubt it's enough for Tif 419 to thrive. So i'm considering a more shade tolerant cultivar of Bermuda. Now, I realize that on the spectrum of shade tolerance ALL bermuda varieties are generally NOT tolerant of shade. But, I've gathered that Tif 419 is the worst.

Below I have added some pics at various times. Need to get some 6 PM shots because it gets good sun then too.

Here it some pics of my trouble spot at 8:30 AM.




And at 11:15:



Here's 3:45:


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

I spoke with a very reputable sod farm today: King Ranch Turfgrass. He quoted me $2000 for a pallet of Tifgrand because they would have to ship it from North Texas. He said they've tried growing it down here but it never does well "in this climate". That sounded odd to me. Why would Tifgrand like DFW and not the Hill Country/South Texas??

I could do TifTuf but I want to be able to spray PGR and it seems like the jury is out on that. Celebration is a contender but it's a lot different color. Another option is Latitude 36. I can source all three locally.

King Ranch recommended Zorro Zoysia... @Greendoc and said that it blends very nicely with Tif 419. But I have concerns about its wear tolerance with two dogs, the overall different input requirements, etc.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Some of you will recommend a good DLI meter...well, unless someone wants to charge me a deposit and then ship it to me...I ain't gonna buy one! I've got many other yard tools I would rather put money towards.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

@Iriasj2009 I know you have a celebration bermuda shade thread and seeing your success gives me hope! You now have Tifgrand right? Which do you like more?

@Movingshrub I know you have sprayed PGR on your Tiftuf and you also have shade.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

Those are some gnarly looking trees, especially the one going THROUGH the fence . I think I would opt to cut them down and just resod your Bermuda of choice. When (not if) they fall, they're taking your fence with it. I know that's not what you asked and probably not what you want to hear, but that's just my 2 cents.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

I would never pay 2K for a pallet of sod! You could just get Tifway 419 and reside every year for a few years for cheaper!


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

quattljl said:


> Those are some gnarly looking trees, especially the one going THROUGH the fence . I think I would opt to cut them down and just resod your Bermuda of choice. When (not if) they fall, they're taking your fence with it. I know that's not what you asked and probably not what you want to hear, but that's just my 2 cents.


That's a live oak tree for you haha! I've lived my entire life in the Texas hill country and very few live oaks ever fail...seriously though. UNLESS they get oak wilt of course.

That is an option for sure though. I kind of like the idea of putting a tire swing on the one tree though  I could get my neighbor along the back fence to cut that POS hackberry down and that would help with afternoon sun a little. I could also trim up the crown better but my electric polesaw wasn't long enough to reach.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> I would never pay 2K for a pallet of sod! You could just get Tifway 419 and reside every year for a few years for cheaper!


Ha! So true! Yeah it'd be a cold day you know where for me to spend that kind of money on sod. I would rather spend that on pouring a patio lol


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Some other thoughts for shade:

Reduce nitrogen, reduce water, reduce traffic, increase HOC, use PGR. The problem is I need to produce a good stand first....then I can follow these guidelines.


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

I don't think you're gonna be happy with Bermuda under those trees.

Maybe throw some Palmetto St. Augustine back there.. it would have a better chance.

You're wasting money and time trying Bermuda under those trees. I understand the desire completely though. And if someone can ever come up with a Bermuda that is truly shade tolerant (on the level of Tall Fescue and some St. Augustine).. lots of money to be made there.

That's my 2 cents.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

lucas287 said:
 

> Some other thoughts for shade:
> 
> Reduce nitrogen, reduce water, reduce traffic, increase HOC, use PGR. The problem is I need to produce a good stand first....then I can follow these guidelines.


Caveat - if the shade is from a tree, then be mindful of the water the tree may consume, because you may need more water.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

sanders4617 said:


> I don't think you're gonna be happy with Bermuda under those trees.
> 
> Maybe throw some Palmetto St. Augustine back there.. it would have a better chance.
> 
> ...


Foresee any issues cutting the Palmetto ~ 2"? I can go from .75 to 2" on my cal trimmer in 2 seconds.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Spammage said:


> lucas287 said:
> 
> 
> > Some other thoughts for shade:
> ...


Very true!


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

No clue on Palmetto cutting heights. They normally say go as high as you can. But I've never had St Augustine and have only seen it in person 1 time.

Maybe synthetic grass in that area? haha


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

sanders4617 said:


> No clue on Palmetto cutting heights. They normally say go as high as you can. But I've never had St Augustine and have only seen it in person 1 time.
> 
> Maybe synthetic grass in that area? haha


Or pour a slab for a patio and fire pit like my wife wants :lol:


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

lucas287 said:


> Or pour a slab for a patio and fire pit like my wife wants :lol:


Looks like a nice area for that - with some landscaping around the perimeter to fill up the rest of the space.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

lucas287 said:


> Years of shade have a compounding effect on bermuda.


And I could not agree more with this statement. :thumbsup:


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

If you were to pour a patio wouldn't you remove the tree? Once the tree was gone you could grow grass.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

J_nick said:


> If you were to pour a patio wouldn't you remove the tree? Once the tree was gone you could grow grass.


Hmm. You know as funny as it sounds, I actually didn't consider the root field of that oak. I thought about pouring the patio to within 1 ft of the trunk but then how would it get water? :roll:


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Before considering the patio I want to exhaust my grass options. So let's get back on track 

What about TTTF? That's supposedly shade tolerant. Zoysia? Reel mowed St. Augustine?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

St Augustine can take a 2" reel cut. In fact, Cal Trimmer, McLane, and Tru Cut mowers were purpose built for mowing SA at about 2". Big difference between rotary mowing at 2" and reel cutting at 2". A reel mower is less likely to dig in and yank out the runners vs a rotary mower.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> St Augustine can take a 2" reel cut. In fact, Cal Trimmer, McLane, and Tru Cut mowers were purpose built for mowing SA at about 2". Big difference between rotary mowing at 2" and reel cutting at 2". A reel mower is less likely to dig in and yank out the runners vs a rotary mower.


My thoughts exactly.

What does everyone think of seashore paspalum? From seed that is.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Right plant in the right place.

You don't have enough light and you are going to have the trees demanding water as well.

You can either pull the trigger and get a light meter or gamble with your turfgrass selection. 
https://floridaturf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Screen-Shot-2013-01-17-at-10.30.20-AM-300x231.png

I used a light meter, confirmed the amount of DLIs I got in the best spots on the best days, and the not so good spots on both good and bad days. TifTuf's DLI requirement was in the ball park.

For shade tolerant bermuda, I think your choices are Tiftuf, Tifgrand, Celebration, and Lat 36. Tifgrand is best below 0.50". Celebration has a different color than 419. I haven't seen lat 36 in person. Tiftuf should blend with 419. I used PGR on it, just for growth regulation, not to handle lack of light.

I'm speculating you're a contender for zoysia or st aug unless you intend to cut down your trees.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Palmetto can be cut shorter than the typical St. Augustine, but still more like 3 inches, not 2 inches. 
I'm in the same boat as you, and trying to figure it out. Neighbors just trimmed a Ton off their trees, getting mine done in July, but still....thinking I'll throw down my bermuda seed since I already have it, but am going to budget for switching to palmetto St. Augustine if need be.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

ktgrok said:


> ...thinking I'll throw down my bermuda seed since I already have it, but am going to budget for switching to palmetto St. Augustine if need be.


I would say seeded bermuda varieties are probably among the least shade tolerant bermuda varieties.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> Palmetto can be cut shorter than the typical St. Augustine, but still more like 3 inches, not 2 inches.
> I'm in the same boat as you, and trying to figure it out. Neighbors just trimmed a Ton off their trees, getting mine done in July, but still....thinking I'll throw down my bermuda seed since I already have it, but am going to budget for switching to palmetto St. Augustine if need be.


I'm really thinking that palmetto could easily handle sub 2". maybe even go for a happy medium of 1.5" for both bermuda and palmetto. @Alan cuts his mixed yard at .5" : https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2202

Maybe he could share his experiences with this?

Also @Paul M cuts his at 1": https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6544


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Ware said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > ...thinking I'll throw down my bermuda seed since I already have it, but am going to budget for switching to palmetto St. Augustine if need be.
> ...


Yeah, but since I already have the seed, it's a free experiment, lol. The very back of the yard is under the trees, I won't try that at all. Mulching that and calling it a day. But the sides....I know the front part of the sides get full sun, it's as it moves to the back that it gets more shade...not quite how far back I can go and still have enough sun. Willing to try, and then adjust mulch as needed if ti works. if not, it's a small enough area to sod Palmetto St. Augustine.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

lucas287 said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > St Augustine can take a 2" reel cut. In fact, Cal Trimmer, McLane, and Tru Cut mowers were purpose built for mowing SA at about 2". Big difference between rotary mowing at 2" and reel cutting at 2". A reel mower is less likely to dig in and yank out the runners vs a rotary mower.
> ...


Don't. Seashore Paspalum needs sand sun and a lot of salt to be the right grass for you. Do not have all three, it stands a good chance of failure.


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> lucas287 said:
> 
> 
> > Greendoc said:
> ...


haha thanks! Realized that mere moments after posing the question


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Ware said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > ...thinking I'll throw down my bermuda seed since I already have it, but am going to budget for switching to palmetto St. Augustine if need be.
> ...


I did see a shade vs bermuda study a couple of years ago, and Celebration was the shaded bermuda winner. Tiftuf and Lat36 weren't around, and I don't remember if the test included Tifgrand. However, Transcontinental bermuda, which is a seeded improved common, was the second place finisher and not all that far behind Celebration.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

I saw that, and tried to find Transcontinental and couldn't. Oh well, what I have is free, since it is just left over seed.


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## FlaDave (Jul 10, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> I saw that, and tried to find Transcontinental and couldn't. Oh well, what I have is free, since it is just left over seed.


Transcontinental is in one of the big box store brand seed bags. Can't remember if it was scotts or vigoro.


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## Iriasj2009 (Feb 15, 2017)

lucas287 said:


> @Iriasj2009 I know you have a celebration bermuda shade thread and seeing your success gives me hope! You now have Tifgrand right? Which do you like more?
> 
> @Movingshrub I know you have sprayed PGR on your Tiftuf and you also have shade.


Sorry for the late response! I liked the tifgrand more simply because i like the color and texture more than celebration, but celebration is a great turf and does extremely well in the shade .


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## lucas287 (Jun 3, 2018)

Just an update to everyone:

I bought a pallet of Celebration and will pick it up/throw it down tomorrow! I've got some prep work to do tonight. I'll keep y'all updated.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

lucas287 said:


> I spoke with a very reputable sod farm today: King Ranch Turfgrass. He quoted me $2000 for a pallet of Tifgrand because they would have to ship it from North Texas. He said they've tried growing it down here but it never does well "in this climate". That sounded odd to me. Why would Tifgrand like DFW and not the Hill Country/South Texas??
> 
> I could do TifTuf but I want to be able to spray PGR and it seems like the jury is out on that. Celebration is a contender but it's a lot different color. Another option is Latitude 36. I can source all three locally.


Haven't read anything negative about PGR use on tiftuf. I'm doing and it works great.

Where did you read or hear this?


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

Since this is fun... How about making a form and pouring concrete tiles? Use pea gravel as the grout with 3 or 4 inches between tiles.

This idea is worth what. you paid for it.


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