# Need help deciding-Celebration/Tifgrand/Tiftuf



## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

I'm getting my clean slate with a new home we're purchasing and thought I had made my decision but the more I research the harder making a choice becomes.

I know all 3 of these share very similar characteristics in terms of drought/shade tolerance. My new lawn has full irrigation so I'm not too concerned about drought. There are some trees but I'm taking several down to allow sun in.

I'm trying to narrow my decision down over these few factors.

1. I plan to mow around 1/2-5/8''
2. I prefer darker shades of green or blue/green over lighter shades of grass
3. Quicker spring green up and longer color retention into fall
4. Disease/pest resilience
5. Less maintenance in terms of verticutting specifically. 
6. Quick recovery to damage

I read that Celebration produces a lot of thatch and has to be verticut often. I've never had thatch issues with my 419 but the lawn is only 4 years old.

My John Deere currently has an 11 blade reel which I'm considering changing out to a 9. One thing I've noticed is the 11 blade reel doesn't cut seed heads or runners well. I'm hoping the 9 will help but verticutting definitely helps address runners and pulling things up vertically.


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

The only correct answer here based upon what you delineated is TifTuf. TifTuf is the superior hybrid bermuda.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Jeremy3292 said:


> The only correct answer here based upon what you delineated is TifTuf. TifTuf is the superior hybrid bermuda.


So in every category I mentioned you think tiftuf is superior?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

MeanDean said:


> 1. I plan to mow around 1/2-5/8''
> 2. I prefer darker shades of green or blue/green over lighter shades of grass
> 3. Quicker spring green up and longer color retention into fall
> 4. Disease/pest resilience
> ...


1. Any of the three will be great.
2. Darker blue-green is Celebration, then tif419, and TifTuf is the lightest in color.
3. Similar, but TifTuf, Tif419, and then Celebration.
4. Similar as far as my experience.
5. Similar, but the Tifton grasses stay tighter naturally, where Celebration can get "puffy".
6. Any of the three, but Celebration spreads faster to bare areas.

edit -- just realized that you asked about Tifgrand and not 419. I don't have personal experience with Tifgrand, but would like to try it.


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## CarolinaCuttin (Sep 6, 2019)

Avoid TifGrand unless you want to deal with seed heads all the time.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

CarolinaCuttin said:


> Avoid TifGrand unless you want to deal with seed heads all the time.


This is something else I forgot to mention. My 419 gets seed heads bad. In fact I have them now and my 11 blade reel doesn't do a good job cutting them.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Spammage said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > 1. I plan to mow around 1/2-5/8''
> ...


I was hoping Celebration had quick green up.

I was talking with a guy in the Atlanta area recently who has 419 in the front and Tiftuf in the backyard and said it was out of dormancy weeks before his 419.


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

MeanDean said:


> Jeremy3292 said:
> 
> 
> > The only correct answer here based upon what you delineated is TifTuf. TifTuf is the superior hybrid bermuda.
> ...


Yes, other than mowing height is the same between all 3. I don't know where people are getting this idea that TifTuf is not dark green. The TifTuf at my house is extremely dark green. If you want to save money get Tifway. If you want the best grass get TifTuf.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

My 419 doesn't get too many seedheads and I think it has better color than Tiftuf. Tiftuf wins in the early spring/late fall catagory though. Can't say too much about Tifgrand. From what I've read, I'd avoid it. Out of those three my choices would be #1 Tiftuf, #2 Celebration, #3 Tifgrand.


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

Here's a picture of the TifTuf sod I planted a month ago:


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

Here is TifTuf sod I laid last July:


And more TifTuf I laid last week:


White balance is off on my phone, so they are the same. Dark green


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

seebryango said:


> White balance is off on my phone, so they are the same. Dark green


Gotta get those big white toes out of the picture so your phone can adjust the exposure. 😂


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## southernbuckeye (Sep 29, 2019)

What's up with those sandals, what is this 1969? LOL

In all seriousness, TifTuf all the way!


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> My 419 doesn't get too many seedheads and I think it has better color than Tiftuf. Tiftuf wins in the early spring/late fall catagory though. Can't say too much about Tifgrand. From what I've read, I'd avoid it. Out of those three my choices would be #1 Tiftuf, #2 Celebration, #3 Tifgrand.


My 419 has tons of seed heads. Are you spraying pgr?


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Jeremy3292 said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > Jeremy3292 said:
> ...


Not concerned with the few dollar difference between varieties. I'm starting fresh and do not want 419 again.

I've basically narrowed it down to celebration or tiftuf. Between these two why would you lean towards Tiftuf?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Tiftuff is for 1/2 and higher height of cut. Tifgrand is if you plan on maintaining at 0.4 or lower


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

BLUF / TL;DR - Tifgrand.



MeanDean said:


> I'm getting my clean slate with a new home we're purchasing and thought I had made my decision but the more I research the harder making a choice becomes.
> 
> I know all 3 of these share very similar characteristics in terms of drought/shade tolerance. My new lawn has full irrigation so I'm not too concerned about drought. There are some trees but I'm taking several down to allow sun in.
> 
> ...


1. Tifgrand is better below 1"; it's a semi dwarf. Tiftuf is better according to UGA at 0.75+.
2. Darkest green of the three.
3. I know Tiftuf stays green longer and greens up sooner. I think tahoma 31 and Tiftuf lead the pack on this one. The others might be close as well, I just don't know.
4. Each cultivar has their strengths; anything in particular you're worried about?
5. Not zoysia
6. Tiftuf and celebration establish quicker than Tifgrand. 
7. Any other requirements? You also want it to cut itself?


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Movingshrub said:


> BLUF / TL;DR - Tifgrand.
> 
> 7. Any other requirements? You also want it to cut itself?


They really weren't requirements but inquiries regarding each but if there's a hybrid that advanced please feel free to share that info as well.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

MeanDean said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > BLUF / TL;DR - Tifgrand.
> ...


Discovery Bermuda


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > Movingshrub said:
> ...


I had Discovery at my previous home. I chose to plant Celebration at the new one, but my choices were 419, Celebration, Discovery, Meyer Zoysia and Emerald Zoysia. So I know nothing of Tiftuf.


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## seebryango (Feb 21, 2019)

@Redtwin i thought having my feet in both pics would adjust the balance so that exposure was the same. I know nothing about cameras and had been drinking already


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> My 419 has tons of seed heads. Are you spraying pgr?


Yes, I have been treating with T-Nex this season. I'm letting it rebound right now but will start up again when the rains kick in.


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

If you are set on mowing over .5", avoid tifgrand. I have it and can say that it definitely needs to be cut reel low and reel often. I'm cutting mine at 8mm right now. Once I get it leveled better, I'd like to go lower than that. It is gorgeous grass though.


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## Jeff20 (Jun 30, 2017)

What about Latitude 36 compared to these three? I'm trying out a very small area of L-36 plugs.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Jeff20 said:


> What about Latitude 36 compared to these three? I'm trying out a very small area of L-36 plugs.


Can't get it anywhere close to me without paying a ridiculous shipping rate from out of state.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Who's cutting tiftuff at .5 ? I haven't seen it personally that low. It does hold color better than most legacy Bermudas

I prefer the smaller blade, dark green tifgrand. Trucut probably cutting at .5" (lowest it can go)

Recovery, unless you have lot of sports or a perhaps horses running all over it...it's going to fine with any of those


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## anthonybilotta (Aug 11, 2018)

jayhawk said:


> Who's cutting tiftuff at .5 ? I haven't seen it personally that low. It does hold color better than most legacy Bermudas
> 
> I prefer the smaller blade, dark green tifgrand. Trucut probably cutting at .5" (lowest it can go)
> 
> Recovery, unless you have lot of sports or a perhaps horses running all over it...it's going to fine with any of those


I'm cutting my tiftuf at 7/16


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

I love reading these cultivar discussions.

In my research, UGA released information that TifGrand's optimum height was 1/2 when it was grown in shady spots... up to 4 hours of shade per day. It is my planned cultivar (my 419-II is being decimated by shade) because of its semi-dwarf leaf, color, and shade tolerance. But that's just me and my prejudice. I also understand that it grows slower than 419 which can be good or bad.


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## Meatpopsickle (Apr 7, 2020)

MeanDean said:


> I'm getting my clean slate with a new home we're purchasing and thought I had made my decision but the more I research the harder making a choice becomes.
> 
> I know all 3 of these share very similar characteristics in terms of drought/shade tolerance. My new lawn has full irrigation so I'm not too concerned about drought. There are some trees but I'm taking several down to allow sun in.
> 
> ...


First off. I am obviously bias about tifgrand.

This season I have started cutting sub 1/2" and have to say it looks much much better than when I was cutting around 3/4"

Color- Might sacrifice some really really dark green going a bit lower but it's still by far a darker more appealing green than any other cultivar I have seen in person. 
Green up/retention - honestly I think you are talking about maybe a few weeks between the extreme ranges of green up/retention between cultivars which is a fraction of the overall growing season.
Pest/disease resistance- I haven't had any pest or disease issues and have yet to put down even 1 application of preemptive treatments. 
Maintenance- I can't speak specifically to the others but I do know that my tifgrand was getting very dense and matted when cutting over 1/2". No thatch issues but could definitely have used a verticut or two each season. I rarely get seed heads.
Recovery- I think the general consensus is that tifgrand is a little slower of a grower. Still Bermuda so unless you are chipping daily or board dogs who have free range on the lawn to I think it should be fine to handle whatever you throw at it. 
Shade tolerance- If you have any shade at all I think this is what is going to set tifgrand apart from the rests. Oddly enough the lower I go the healthier and more shade tolerant the grass seems to be.

Overall I think if you can go down below 1/2" and keep up with that (maybe some pgr could help here) tifgrand is the way to go. Color/shade tolerance/texture are the three biggest pros I think it has.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Meatpopsickle said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > I'm getting my clean slate with a new home we're purchasing and thought I had made my decision but the more I research the harder making a choice becomes.
> ...


I have been told by my sod supplier that Tifgrand is best at less than 0.3". It was intended to be a green and tee grass for partially shaded golf courses.


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## Meatpopsickle (Apr 7, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Meatpopsickle said:
> 
> 
> > MeanDean said:
> ...


Greendoc- I believe it. You were the one got me to push it lower and I have to say. Lower is better with tifgrand. Not quite less than .3" at the moment but just did another top dress in hopes really smoothing out even the slightest imperfections. Hoping to get there after this


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I find that Tifgrand is slow growing if and this is a big if, the grass is not pushed with water and fertilizer. Your Nitrogen rate is 0.25 lb or lower per month. Watering should be kept at just above the point of wilt. I go for a less than 1" per week total water rate.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Great info that's given me pause. Sod replacement project planned for the early fall. Several shaded areas in the yard which currently has St Augustine being cut far too low. I was planning on Zoysia but have since ruled that out, not confident that it'll work out in some of the partially shaded areas. Tiftuf seems to be a better option with my planning to maintain a HOC between .5 and .75"' We have about 15,000 sq ft of lawn some of which are far too shaded for any grass so those will turn into ground cover beds with Asiatic Jasmine.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> I find that Tifgrand is slow growing if and this is a big if, the grass is not pushed with water and fertilizer. Your Nitrogen rate is 0.25 lb or lower per month. Watering should be kept at just above the point of wilt. I go for a less than 1" per week total water rate.


It's crazy how many people follow the lb/1k rule and then I read stuff like this... 0.25/1k. This must be the difference in a well established turf vs. one that needs a push filling in bare spots.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Meatpopsickle said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Meatpopsickle said:
> ...


Any thoughts on where the sweet spot is for Celebration?

I think 419 looks better mowed around 5/8-3/4. I've taken it down around 1/2'' and the color isn't as nice.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> It's crazy how many people follow the lb/1k rule and then I read stuff like this... 0.25/1k. This must be the difference in a well established turf vs. one that needs a push filling in bare spots.


Yes, I learned that from @Greendoc as well. I really pushed mine last year to get it to fill in but will back off significantly this season since I don't have any huge bare spots I'm trying to fill.


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

@MeanDean

I've had 419, Celebration, and now TifGrand. I liked Celebration the best. I think the reason I liked it so much is that it came with a certificate from the sod farm. It was well grown sod, and did so well.

If you don't watch fertility (how much fertilizer you put down,) and so on, then you will be bailing hay. I could get it to blue green color. I can get tifgrand to blue green color as well. Heck...I could do it with 419.

What I've found with TifGrand. 
1) Had to fight funguses I never fought with the other two. Like starting with 4 weeks after Super Sod delivered and the contractor put it down. 
2)seed heads...did I mention seed heads? Going to try PGR this year. We'll see what happens. Others can get seed heads as well. But TifGrand can sprout them out at less than a 1/2" of height. Gets annoying at times. 
3) I've found early spring green up and holding color in the fall exellent with tifgrand. In fact I've found it to be better than the other two cultivars.
4) I have to water a bunch here. But I have no tree cover at all. Also the ground about 3" down or so is as hard of a red clay as you will find anywhere. So that's the soil's fault. Not the turf.

But when it's right...man is it beautiful.

Honestly seeing as you're in the upstate I would look into some of the more cold hardy bermudas (if they're available). Lattitude, Northbridge, and so on. Even though I'm 100 miles away from you heading to the coast. The Upstate winters can be much harder, and longer than the midlands and lowcountry of SC.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

My tiftuf was looking pretty sweet at 1/2 inch before the rain days forced me to move up. I'd say it depends on pricing of each cultivar. TT around here is getting expensive.


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

Reading the comments, it appears everyone is comparing seemingly every type of bermuda but TifTuf. Perhaps because not many people have had it and can't speak to it well. TifTuf was literally created to solve almost all of the problems people have with Bermuda. Shade tolerance, faster spring green up, winter hardiness, superior drought tolerance, less sead heads, etc. Perhaps I am wrong; these are just my personal opinions. Would love to hear somebody's thoughts on TifTuf and not these older cultivars.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

I just spoke to the owner of a local sod farm who grows 419, Celebration, and has 4 acres of Tahoma 31 they're growing now. He said their Tahoma has been green since the middle of March while the other 2 are still coming alive.

He also mentioned that Celebration does have a nice bluish tint which is more noticeable with the morning dew but when all are fertilized equally and side by side in direct sunlight even he has a hard time differentiating between them. Enough nitrogen/iron will have them all so close your average person would never be able to tell the difference unless you knew the blade quality differences.

He also wasn't too crazy about Tiftuf and said it was basically a glorified 419 lol


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Believe it or not, my main criteria for choosing any grass is under low Nitrogen conditions, how green does it stay and how slowly does it grow. I also look at whether it can survive in partial shade conditions while being mowed low and and minimally fertilized.


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## Bermuda_Newbie (Jun 15, 2018)

@Greendoc do you like it if they grow faster or slower?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I want much slower growth.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

@Greendoc how well does Tiftuf measure up in your selection process aka requirements ?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

It passes, I consider it a Bermuda for Rotary mowed or non green height areas. To me, Tiftuff is a vast improvement over 419. In Hawaii, 419 struggles because of the Nematodes. Tiftuff and Tifgrand have proven to be relatively resistant compared to 419 and 328 Bermuda


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Thank you, despite having a relatively large amount to mow I'll be using a reel mower.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

ThomasPI said:


> Thank you, despite having a relatively large amount to mow I'll be using a reel mower.


My yard is 13k. I just got a reel mower this year. So far the front and side, which is 6k, haven't seemed overwhelming to cut. Right now I have Tiftuf at 0.40".


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Thanks &#128077;


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## bigmks (May 22, 2018)

@Topcat show them what tiff-tuff looks like reel mowed! If I would have done my homework. I would have possibly gone with tiff-tuff. Although I like being able to cut once a week with empire zoysia @ 3/4. The Bermuda on the other hand is different.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

bigmks said:


> @Topcat show them what tiff-tuff looks like reel mowed! If I would have done my homework. I would have possibly gone with tiff-tuff. Although I like being able to cut once a week with empire zoysia @ 3/4. The Bermuda on the other hand is different.






The color is slightly off due to a seed head bloom that is slowly subsiding. I took the HOC down to .450" to help eradicate the seed heads.

My wife who is always skeptical about my cultural practices ("you are going to kill it from over cutting", she says) actually commented on how great the lawn looks.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Topcat said:


> bigmks said:
> 
> 
> > @Topcat show them what tiff-tuff looks like reel mowed! If I would have done my homework. I would have possibly gone with tiff-tuff. Although I like being able to cut once a week with empire zoysia @ 3/4. The Bermuda on the other hand is different.
> ...


Looks great! Does the sun set in front or behind your house?

I ask because stripes are more defined in my backyard where the sun sets and receives the hottest sun of the day, whereas my front yard gets morning sun and takes longer to green up and stripes are less noticeable with 419.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

@Topcat looks great, how well does it deal with shaded parts of the yard ?


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

The sun sets more towards the back of my house than the front. The pictures attached were taken around noon when the stripes are more visible.



MeanDean said:


> Looks great! Does the sun set in front or behind your house?
> 
> I ask because stripes are more defined in my backyard where the sun sets and receives the hottest sun of the day, whereas my front yard gets morning sun and takes longer to green up and stripes are less noticeable with 419.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

ThomasPI said:


> @Topcat looks great, how well does it deal with shaded parts of the yard ?


The only real shade I have to deal with is the neighbor's large Magnolia tree. The sun is on the other side of that tree after 5pm, so there is not much of an issue with shade that impacts the TifTuf. The west side of the house does not get much sun until after noon, but the TifTuf still gets a good 6+ hours of full sun there, so not an issue. If you look at the one pic of the lawn near the shrubbery, you will notice that the tiftif did not grow around those shrubs, although the sod went right to the trunk of them. Those were overgrown an in dire need of pruning, which my neighbor finally took care of this past weekend. The tiftuf will spread to fill in the previously shaded areas in no time.

I've been cutting daily for the past week, as it is really growing a lot. I was going to go down with PGR this past weekend, but not having any marker dye to clearly see where I sprayed, delayed the application. Then the neighbor trimmed the shrubs, and I want to get rapid fill in, so I will wait a few more weeks to go down with PGR.


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## bigmks (May 22, 2018)

@ThomasPI Ive seen this lawn is person. It looks damn near fake! My daughter told me dad he lawn looks better than yours. I still
have her locked in my shed because of that comment!


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Last thing about Tiftuff is that it is designed to perform at a water deficit. If it is growing fast, there is too much water and fertilizer.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Last thing about Tiftuff is that it is designed to perform at a water deficit. If it is growing fast, there is too much water and fertilizer.


I put down 1.5 lbs of urea about a month ago after I leveled. We've had a bit of rain, and warm weather - so much so that my Rachio controller hasn't run the irrigation for the last 2 weeks and not scheduled to run until 5 June.


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## Meatpopsickle (Apr 7, 2020)

Redtwin said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > It's crazy how many people follow the lb/1k rule and then I read stuff like this... 0.25/1k. This must be the difference in a well established turf vs. one that needs a push filling in bare spots.
> ...


Can you all go into a little more detail about what @Greendoc has referenced? Are we saying that in reality less is more? Is that specific to the cultivar or just in general we culturally apply too much N? Interested to know know more. I will admit my fert technique is "spray and pray" and generally will slightly overdue bag rate when applying fert.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In general, 1 lb of N refers to either grow in or Rotary mowing constantly and bagging clippings. If you are trying to maintain reel low grass, too much N is not your friend.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> If you are trying to maintain reel low grass, too much N is not your friend.


^^^^This is what I was referring to.^^^^ I'm trying to keep mine between .25" and .5" this season so conventional wisdom on water and fert are out the window. I'm in rebound right now and decided to do a HOC reset from .5" to .25". It damn near killed me and my GM1000. The GM1000 is a tank but it struggled. I had to do it in smaller increments with 3 different passes. The good news is my grass is thick and healthy.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> In general, 1 lb of N refers to either grow in or Rotary mowing constantly and bagging clippings. If you are trying to maintain reel low grass, too much N is not your friend.


It almost seems counterproductive to throw down 1 lb/1k then turn around and hit it with PGR. I know there are other benefits with PGR besides growth suppression, but that is the main selling point of the product.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Some of you have brought up some really good points and made me think about his a little more. Being right on the transition zone line and having moderately cold winters has caused me to consider Tahoma 31 and Latitude 36 which both exhibit great wear and drought tolerance, early spring green up, and decent shade tolerance.

I really like the idea of longer color retention going into fall and early spring green up.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> In general, 1 lb of N refers to either grow in or Rotary mowing constantly and bagging clippings. If you are trying to maintain reel low grass, too much N is not your friend.


Yeah, agreed. I went heavy to spur growth post leveling to get it to fill in quickly - which worked remarkably. I had planned on putting down PGR this past weekend to slow the growth a tad. However I did not have any marker dye, and did not want to risk missing spots or too much overlap, so I put it off. I am regretting the delay right now. it started raining last night, with rain in the forecast daily for the rest of the week. I will find time between rain showers tomorrow to mow, and will definitely put down PGR Friday or Saturday. I stopped and picked up blue marker after work today.


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