# Seed direct on top of thatch/topdress or remove thatch first?



## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

I need to reno ~10,000sqft. Beside the fact I should probably do this in the Fall since the area faces the south and gets pretty dry in the Summer, I'm willing to take a stab at it. Our lawn got destroyed two summers ago by either grubs and/or chinch bugs. You can literally peel back the top layer almost everywhere either by hand or by rake. I had two possible approaches to re-seeding and not sure which is preferred:

1. Broadcast seed direct over thatch and cover with 1/4" loam.
2. Peel away thatch to get direct access to soil underneath, broadcast, then cover with straw. This option requires far more work due to having to manually remove all thatch, but would not require ~15yds loam plus having to spread it, although my friend offered to use his skid steer and york rake.


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## Bperk09 (Mar 29, 2021)

If the thatch layer is thick, you should probably remove it first. The seeds need direct soil contact to germinate and take root. Without it you would just be wasting seed and effort.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Bperk09 said:


> If the thatch layer is thick, you should probably remove it first. The seeds need direct soil contact to germinate and take root. Without it you would just be wasting seed and effort.


Right, which is why I thought option 1 would work where I could seed then cover with 1/4" loam. Wouldn't the roots penetrate through the thatch?


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

I would think that dethatching would be easier than spreading loam. 
power rake will pull up the thatch and dead grass to expose the soil. seeding, followed by a roller will give you nice seed-to-soil contact. 
spreading Loam or topsoil by hand is very frustrating. i'm thinking that would be more difficult than dethatching. (i'm assuming you dont have access to a powered spreader)


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Thejarrod said:


> I would think that dethatching would be easier than spreading loam.
> power rake will pull up the thatch and dead grass to expose the soil. seeding, followed by a roller will give you nice seed-to-soil contact.
> spreading Loam or topsoil by hand is very frustrating. i'm thinking that would be more difficult than dethatching. (i'm assuming you dont have access to a powered spreader)


 I don't have power spreader but as mentioned my friend has skid steer to spread the loam around. I like option 2 best but to dethatch and remove 10,000sqft of thatch with a rake sounds painful. I like to work, but that's going to take a long time


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Generally speaking, the harder the upfront work, the greater the payoff.

Forget about overseeding for a moment. If your thatch layer is too thick, it can create a lot of other issues. So, if thatch is an issue, I would 100% recommend power raking. I also typically recommend power raking prior to an overseed anyway. Along with scalping your existing grass.

This assumes, of course that you are in this deep rabbit hole of lawn care and want the absolute best lawn in the neighorhood.

If you're just looking for the basics and aren't really into lawn care as a hobby, skip the power rake.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Harts said:


> Generally speaking, the harder the upfront work, the greater the payoff.
> 
> Forget about overseeding for a moment. If your thatch layer is too thick, it can create a lot of other issues. So, if thatch is an issue, I would 100% recommend power raking. I also typically recommend power raking prior to an overseed anyway. Along with scalping your existing grass.
> 
> ...


Regarding the thatch layer. I'm not talking about the little bit of yellowed grass that builds up over the winter, but a thatch layer that is ~1/4" thick that when you peel it back, some dirt comes up with it. Would a power rake be able to handle that?


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## BobRoss (Jul 3, 2019)

I recommend Dethatching as well. Pick up one of those greenworks electric dethatchers for pretty cheap. Than you can suck up the thatch with a bagger mower or rake it up. This will be better for your existing and new grass. It will also help with seed to soil contact.

You could always add the loam on top for leveling purposes and greater seed to soil contact. It should also help with keeping the seeds moist.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

jzinckgra said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > Generally speaking, the harder the upfront work, the greater the payoff.
> ...


You are correct. There is a difference between thatch and debris. A power rake will handle both. It has flail blades that dig into the soil. This is not the same as the spring tines you see on cartridges from Allett, Swardman or the Greenworks machine.

Renting a power rake from Home Depot (or anywhere else that rents them) is the best way to remove thatch buildup.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Here's a few pics of what I'm dealing with


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't see thatch or lawn. Can you do a picture of a core sample, to see the thatch?


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## Retromower (Jan 28, 2021)

jzinckgra said:


> I need to reno ~10,000sqft. Beside the fact I should probably do this in the Fall since the area faces the south and gets pretty dry in the Summer, I'm willing to take a stab at it. Our lawn got destroyed two summers ago by either grubs and/or chinch bugs. You can literally peel back the top layer almost everywhere either by hand or by rake. I had two possible approaches to re-seeding and not sure which is preferred:
> 
> 1. Broadcast seed direct over thatch and cover with 1/4" loam.
> 2. Peel away thatch to get direct access to soil underneath, broadcast, then cover with straw. This option requires far more work due to having to manually remove all thatch, but would not require ~15yds loam plus having to spread it, although my friend offered to use his skid steer and york rake.


Id remove the thatch. You want the seed to get direct contact with the soil.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

g-man said:


> I don't see thatch or lawn. Can you do a picture of a core sample, to see the thatch?


Here's a piece that I can easily pull up. The second and third pic show other areas that would need thatch removal. I know I keep calling it thatch, but it's more like pulling up dead sod.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would gly, harley rake that on the skid steer and seed it. No loam needed.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

g-man said:


> *I would gly*, harley rake that on the skid steer and seed it. No loam needed.


You mean RoundUp to kill existing grass?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes. I dont see grass in the second image. The last one has some.

The other option is mow all of that short and throw the seed. The seed roots will go thru that layer of roots and eventually those roots will decompose. It might work out.


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## Belgianbillie (Apr 3, 2018)

Bperk09 said:


> If the thatch layer is thick, you should probably remove it first. The seeds need direct soil contact to germinate and take root. Without it you would just be wasting seed and effort.


the seeds in my driveway beg to differ


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

g-man said:


> Yes. I dont see grass in the second image. The last one has some.
> 
> The other option is mow all of that short and throw the seed. The seed roots will go thru that layer of roots and eventually those roots will decompose. It might work out.


would have to cover with some straw if I go that route, no?


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

FYI, I can rent one of these.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

So, the seeds I put down couple months ago have partially germinated. Unfortunately the dead thatch that I turned up and left in place thinking it would help is somewhat matted down again and I think has prevented some of the seedlings to germinate. I have since determined that all of our lawn damage was caused by grubs. Knowing this is a huge relief and I am treating appropriately. In the Fall I want to overseed again, but should I rake out and remove all of this dead thatch/grub damage? Doing so allows direct access to the dirt below, however there is so much thatch to rake out, it might take forever,lol.
This brings me back to my original question. Should I just throw down seed over thatch, then topdress with 1/4" loam/compost?


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## Overtaxed (May 9, 2021)

g-man said:


> I would gly, harley rake that on the skid steer and seed it. No loam needed.


That's what I'd do too. You'd have that done with a Harley rake in under an hour and have a perfect seedbed.

Another option, see if a rental yard around you has a slice seeder. Those are basically power rakes with a seeder attached, so you could kill 2 birds with one pass using that, it'll pull up the thatch and lay the seed in the newly exposed soil. I'd still hit it with Roundup first unless you know you'll be matching the grass you already have.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Overtaxed said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > I would gly, harley rake that on the skid steer and seed it. No loam needed.
> ...


Once you kill existing grass with RU, don't you have to then physically remove the tufts of grass? The remaining grass we have is some sort of fescue, very wide bladed and heavily rooted. Regarding the harley rake, I don't know anyone that has one and don't think rental place has one. They do have a walk behind power rake though that I know would pull up the thatch garbage.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

jzinckgra said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > *I would gly*, harley rake that on the skid steer and seed it. No loam needed.
> ...


Yes


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

jzinckgra said:


> FYI, I can rent one of these.


That essentially looks like a mini harley rake and should work. I would follow gman's advice. Gly then power/harley rake then seed. You've got a pretty good sized job ahead of you no matter which route you take. Might as well take the time and do it right.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

KoopHawk said:


> jzinckgra said:
> 
> 
> > FYI, I can rent one of these.
> ...


Turns out there is a local place that rents harley rakes and my buddy has a skid steer, so I think I'll go that route in Sept. thanks.


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Kill it all off with glyphosate ie roundup. Talk to your friend and line up a harley rake rental for his skidsteer. Harley rake the whole property you will be amazed at the final product. It will be ready for seed with little work. Wait until the fall to seed it you will have little success in summer without alot of water and lots of work. Why easier in cooler fall tempa


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I'm going to assume Maine weather is similar to Southern Ontario. I would plan to get your seed down in the middle of August. Everybody that I know in the Northeast who seeded in September, almost always wished they had done so weeks earlier. Seeding early allows to time to throw down more seed in areas with less germination. It also allows the possibility of getting a Fall pre-emergent app down.

Removing dead grass and removing debris are two different things. If you kill the existing grass, you do not need to remove it. However, if you rent a power rake, for example, you will want to rake up the debris that comes up - the stuff in the video that I posted in this thread a few months ago. Otherwise your seed will just sit on this bed and your germination rate will significantly decrease.


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## BBLOCK (Jun 8, 2020)

Yeah go Harley rake route, you go backwards with the Harley rake and it will pull a lot of the debris along with it and then you make a long row of debris and come by and pick up the one row and have a good seed bed, if you used a slit seeder or a seed drill it will help get your seed down into the soil and less work for trying to cover the seed.

That's my plan personally.


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## jzinckgra (Nov 25, 2019)

Harts said:


> I'm going to assume Maine weather is similar to Southern Ontario. I would plan to get your seed down in the middle of August. Everybody that I know in the Northeast who seeded in September, almost always wished they had done so weeks earlier. Seeding early allows to time to throw down more seed in areas with less germination. It also allows the possibility of getting a Fall pre-emergent app down.
> 
> Removing dead grass and removing debris are two different things. If you kill the existing grass, you do not need to remove it. However, if you rent a power rake, for example, you will want to rake up the debris that comes up - the stuff in the video that I posted in this thread a few months ago. Otherwise your seed will just sit on this bed and your germination rate will significantly decrease.


Mid Aug for seeding would be ok, but we can still get very hot days in Aug as I'm sure you do. Also, it never seems to rain much anymore during summer through Sept, so harley raking everything and starting over is a bit of a risk as were dependent on well water and limited number of sprinklers to move around. Currently, we have ~50% grass present, so as much as I'd like to RU that grass so the new seeds matches, not sure it's worth the risk if we get little rain and poor germination. But I do like and see the advantages of the harley rake.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

At the end of the day, you have to do what works for you and your resources. I like to give advice of what is "ideal" but ideal doesn't always exist.

Mid August seedings work really well, despite the heat, as long as irrigation isn't an issue.

One thing to keep in mind is August heat isn't necessarily the same as June/July heat. The sun is getting lower in the sky; the days get shorter and nights get a little cooler.

With that said, you need to build a plan that works for your situation.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

jzinckgra said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to assume Maine weather is similar to Southern Ontario. I would plan to get your seed down in the middle of August. Everybody that I know in the Northeast who seeded in September, almost always wished they had done so weeks earlier. Seeding early allows to time to throw down more seed in areas with less germination. It also allows the possibility of getting a Fall pre-emergent app down.
> ...


I'm just a hair south of you and did a reno last fall starting in mid-August because of the heat and watering restrictions. As @Harts said, I should've moved mine up a couple/few weeks as I was still watering in October when that freak snowstorm hit. Then, because of the whacky winter we had, I've had snow mold issues in certain spots that I'm still dealing with. I'm going to tackle those areas this fall with an overseed.

My back yard is getting a reno this fall, and it's going to be a mid-August start to hopefully avoid some of the issues I had last year. Granted, my back yard is very shaded, I'm still going to start early, I'm doing Rhizing Moon in the back this year and using Titan XL in the front for overseeding. We'll see what happens.


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