# Heavy clay soil, always wet. Should I replace my soil to fix???



## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

Hi everyone! This will be a little long-winded, so I apologize in advance. I bought this house here in Southern MD 2 years ago and every Fall and Spring I've overseeded the yard, but I'm starting to realize that the poor clay soil is contributing to my grass having such a hard time thriving.

I posted on here not long ago, seeking advice for improving this clay soil without tilling. My neighbor ended up tilling his lawn 12" deep with a walk-behind rental tiller, mixing sand in with his soil and took him around a week to do it. I have not been up for the challenge of tilling in some amendment(s) on 13k sq ft, especially since I can't seem to find any sort of tow-behind equipment (even for a tractor) that can do that sort of depth. I have an irrigation system buried around 12" throughout my entire yard, and lots of tree roots, so I'm thinking tilling may not be the most ideal way to go about fixing this.

We've had rain several days of the past week. It hasn't rained since late last night (it's now 6:15PM EST) and the yard is an absolute soggy mess. Even if it doesn't rain for 7 days, parts of my yard will remain a mud hole since the clay is not allowing for good drainage. I'm at the point where experimenting with adding gypsum, compost, or any other amendment is not going to give quick enough results. I have to wait at least 5-7 days after a rain to mow the lawn, else mower wheels (whether it be my push mower or riding mower) pack the grass into the soft, wet clay and kills the grass. So lately I'm losing grass pretty frequently, and losing patience with this soil.

I purchase a soil probe recently and decided to go around the yard and see what my soil is actually looking like at the surface level, and below the surface. Here are some videos I took my situation, along with some inspection of the cores I pulled in 3 different areas of my yard:

Muddy back yard:
https://youtu.be/G0EXs-Gwd8w

Core sample 1:
https://youtu.be/_0dLmOesSlI

Core sample 2:
https://youtu.be/0hPFNV5etS0

Core sample 3:
https://youtu.be/-GzW2c1yVXg

The video for Core Sample 3 is the deepest core sample I was able to get today, which shows a whole lot of clay. Maybe the most important of the 4 videos if you choose to only watch one lol.

So as deep as my clay problem goes, I don't foresee doing core aerations and back-filling the holes with organic matter doing much. Not sure if I'm right about that, but I'm beginning to wonder whether or not I might just be better off getting a skid-steer in here in the future, when things have dried up, and removing at least several inches of clay of the top and replacing it with a better quality soil.

That brings several questions:

1. With as deep as my clay is, how deep should I consider going if I want to remove enough clay to replace with better soil?

2. The only place around here that has topsoil by the ton has very light-colored top soil. I've used some in a few areas to level things out, and I'm learning that the topsoil seems to be more like regular dirt. Meaning little organic matter, for one. So do I use that for the first so many inches of replacing what I remove, then use the same top soil but mix some compost, manure, and/or sand with it?

Obviously if I'm going to go thru this, I want to make sure I do it right. I want good drainage, and no more of this mucky crap that I've been tromping around in nearly every week for 2 years now. Sorry for such a long post, but I always figure the more information I can provide, the better. Thanks to anyone willing to read thru this and provide some solid advice!

EDIT on 8/19/2020:

So I guess one thing that I'd like to keep in mind about this overall issue, and why I was contemplating replacing the clay, is not only for the drainage and resulting sogginess of the yard, but also to just improve the soil for the grass. If I somehow manage to address the sogginess of the clay without replacing the soil, I still have very heavy, compacted clay soil for my grass. I have shallow roots all over in my tall fescue lawn.... whether the clay is wet, damp, or dry and rock-hard, my grass has a hard time getting deep roots and just dies off every summer, even if I water it properly, cut it properly, and give it proper nutrients, etc.

So the problem is really two-fold. And I feel like as long as there is this much clay on the first X inches of the soil, every time it gets wet it's going to turn to mud and take time to dry, even if it's a hot and sunny day for several days after it rains. Like I've mentioned in a few other posts on this thread, even the steepest grades in the yard, where water doesn't stand a chance of collecting, it stays muddy after a rain.

I might have a hookup on some composted horse manure, and a lot of it. As much as I don't want anything to do with manure, will tilling that in with some pelletized gypsum and some sand potentially be a problem solver for both the drainage issues, and for the fertility of grass??


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## Easyluck (Feb 5, 2019)

Changing the soil won't do anything if you don't control the water issues.

First you need to control surface water and then maybe ground water. In the first video I saw one gutter down spout that is emitting water towards your problem area.

Trenching your gutters and extending them away from your house will help tremendously.

If you have any low spots you can install a catch basin, change the grade or build a swale.

For ground water issues you might need a French drain.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

^+1

I would honestly hire an expert engineer or someone who can recommend what will improve your drainage, after you control surface runoff. Be it making a swale or installing a french drain. Might cost you what you will just pay for a day of a skid steer and not achieve much.

As a temporary bandaid try using panterra wetting agent and see if it helps. It has helped a few people with water collection in low areas but again that's just a band-aid. It's not that expensive but try it in one area to compare to the rest.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

I have a silty clay soil and where it doesnt drain properly i have similar issues.

Ive fixed the worst of it by making sure surface water drains away. A few strategically placed tiles may help too butni havenot gone there yet.

Regrading, drainage tiles, filling in low spots.

Don't let the water sit there.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Do you have pictures of this lawn in late May?


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

Hi everyone, thanks a bunch for all the help! So regarding the drainage I can provide this information:

1. During closing on the house the previous owners did tell me that there's a french drain around the house. However, the only place I've noticed any piping exiting my yard is right beyond the wood-line, passing under where the muddy mess is. There are two 4" PVC pipes exiting side-by-side. I'm not sure exactly where they run under, and if they are ran parallel to each other the whole way, or just where they exit. Unfortunately the husband of the couple that I bought the house from passed away last year and he was the one that would have known the details of the french drain.

2. The area that stays the muddiest is actually graded, and about as much as it can be without being too close to the crawl space access door and crawl space vents, and while retaining an elevation over the rest of the property that does not have grass. A portion of the really muddy are keeps compacting after I've filled it with a heap of top soil twice now. It stays so soft that it just compacts from walking over it over the course of several months. I have used a solid 4" corrugated pipe off the down-spout that is closest to that area and ran the downspout clear away from that area, but it did not help at all so I removed it.

The really muddy area is actually just the biggest problem, but the rest of the yard is also graded pretty well (hard to tell in the videos, but trust me) and still stays very soft for 5+ days after a rain. So without making a really large umbrella for my entire yard (lol) I don't think any reasonable amount of french drains or swale drains is going to fix my graded yard.

I may be wrong, but I really think my problem is just the overall volume of heavy clay in my soil. It gets wet and takes forever to dry, even in the steepest areas of my lawn. The shade has a bit to do with it too, surely, but even the sunniest, and steepest parts of my lawn still have this problem.

This is why I'm thinking doing a decent depth of new, better-draining soil material is going to be my answer, so I don't want to manually till 12+" of amendment throughout my whole yard. Am I wrong here? Thanks again everyone!!!


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## sirwired (May 21, 2020)

I wouldn't want to till that with a walk-behind, but a tractor for a small farm might do ok. It'd certainly be cheaper than removing and installing hundreds of cu yd. of new dirt. (And that amount of decent dirt won't be cheap. Obviously the cheapest fill dirt will be poor-quality, with rocks and trash, and weed seeds if by some miracle it's fertile.)

(I did the math, and given your stated lawn size, a foot of dirt will for a 13k lawn will be nearly 500 yards, which will be 35-50 truckloads, depending on the truck size, and then you'll also need to have somebody actually install it.)


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> Do you pictures of this lawn in late May?


I do have this one from June 6th of this year:










Had over-seeded but I've got shallow roots due to this clay, so every summer I get fungus despite several applications of fungicide, and heat stress despite watering my lawn properly. So all the new grass is already gone and all you see is bare soil up close.


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

sirwired said:


> I wouldn't want to till that with a walk-behind, but a tractor for a small farm might do ok. It'd certainly be cheaper than removing and installing hundreds of cu yd. of new dirt. (And that amount of decent dirt won't be cheap. Obviously the cheapest fill dirt will be poor-quality, with rocks and trash, and weed seeds if by some miracle it's fertile.)
> 
> (I did the math, and given your stated lawn size, a foot of dirt will for a 13k lawn will be nearly 500 yards, which will be 35-50 truckloads, depending on the truck size, and then you'll also need to have somebody actually install it.)


Thanks Sirwired. So I was looking at some PTO-driven tillers for tractors on YouTube to see what people were doing, and it doesn't look like they till very deep. Maybe 4" at best?? Hard for me to tell. Plus with all the trees and roots in certain areas I bet no one in the right mind would subject their tiller to that kind of abuse once they hear the beating their tiller is taking when they operate it haha. That's why I was almost thinking a skid-steer to remove the stuff would make more sense, because it likely would just rip thru the roots without effort. Definitely wouldn't damage the skid steer.

Thanks for doing that calculation for me. I'm ignorant to this topic to be honest, and dang 35 truck loads would be INSANE. Dirt is cheap, but 35 truckloads of it would be a small fortune lol! Any rough idea how many tons that is? And how deep is that meant to cover, 12"? Thanks again!!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Do you have images of the backyard?


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## sirwired (May 21, 2020)

Yes, my "truckloads" calculation was based on 12" of soil over your stated lawn size. (1 ft depth * sq ft / 27 = cu yd.)

For a project this large, I'd at least call a company that does grading, explain your problem, and see what they offer. This isn't a DIY project.


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> Do you have images of the backyard?


I'll have to dig thru my phone. Are you looking for a picture that perhaps shows the top level of the soil? Or just a general picture of the grass and such? I'll see what I can find!


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

sirwired said:


> Yes, my "truckloads" calculation was based on 12" of soil over your stated lawn size. (1 ft depth * sq ft / 27 = cu yd.)
> 
> For a project this large, I'd at least call a company that does grading, explain your problem, and see what they offer. This isn't a DIY project.


Thanks again Sirwired, definitely appreciate your feedback. Will definitely start down that road and see if that is going to be an affordable direction for me to go. May just have to till the top layer with some amendments and hope for the best, based on what I imagine paying a company to replace my soil is going to end up costing me :lol:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm looking to see how it looked before looking so bad.

One option is sand capping.


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## Easyluck (Feb 5, 2019)

AGrayson84 said:


> Hi everyone, thanks a bunch for all the help! So regarding the drainage I can provide this information:
> 
> 1. During closing on the house the previous owners did tell me that there's a french drain around the house. However, the only place I've noticed any piping exiting my yard is right beyond the wood-line, passing under where the muddy mess is. There are two 4" PVC pipes exiting side-by-side. I'm not sure exactly where they run under, and if they are ran parallel to each other the whole way, or just where they exit. Unfortunately the husband of the couple that I bought the house from passed away last year and he was the one that would have known the details of the french drain.
> 
> ...


Have you ever seen water coming out of those two pipes? They could be clogged.

In the fourth video you have another downspout dumping out into the problem area. You really should extend ALL your downspouts.

Next time it rains go outside and observe where all the water is coming from. 
You are not the only one with clay soil in your area. Get a couple quotes from professional landscapers or drainage professionals. Pick their brain.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

@g-man mentioned something I'll reiterate too. Look for clogged drains. If it's PVC you can roto root it. There may be some clean outs by the house.

My neighbor had that happen just this week. His drainage tile got clogged. His side yard got all soggy and it is well graded. Right after a heavy rain he found the break. The water was bubbling up from the break. You might be able to put some dye in the pipe if you have a cleanout uphill by the house to test and see where it's draining.

If there's a broken tile system or french drain regrading wont fix the sogginess.


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> I'm looking to see how it looked before looking so bad.
> 
> One option is sand capping.


Just for reference, here is the front yard on June 06:









And here it was 2 days ago (Aug 17):









Got some backyard pics coming next...


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

Here are a few pics of the back yard from May 03 of this year. Looks like nice green grass..... but if you look closely it's all moss. A moss infestation started last Fall and took over nearly all of the back yard. Very little grass.... only whatever was left from over the years.


























It might be hard to tell, but the downspout closest to the muddy area doesn't dump any water over that area, the way the yard is graded. It runs straight from the downspout, and even when I temporarily routed the downspouts to the far edge of the yard with solid corrugated pipe it didn't improve the soft areas.

During May the rest of May I dragged my tow-behind dethatcher over everything many times, would spray liquid moss killer, remove more moss, spread moss killer granules, and just kept at it till it was all dead, and all removed. Here was June 3, after all moss was killed off and removed, and after the soil dried up:


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

Easyluck said:


> Have you ever seen water coming out of those two pipes? They could be clogged.
> 
> In the fourth video you have another downspout dumping out into the problem area. You really should extend ALL your downspouts.
> 
> ...


You know, I really do need to go there while it's raining and see if those pipes are dumping any water. Solid point, for sure.

I had extended that downspout at one time to see if it helped, and it totally didn't help at all unfortunately. The way the yard is graded coming off the back side of the house, the water runs straight down from the downspout.... it doesn't veer right, or spread right at all. The lack of sunlight there attributes to the sogginess, but just the compacted clay is likely the other problem.

Good thinking on getting a hold of a drainage professional... I didn't really know that was a thing. Going to make some calls this week and see where that goes.

Thanks again for the help!


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> @g-man mentioned something I'll reiterate too. Look for clogged drains. If it's PVC you can roto root it. There may be some clean outs by the house.
> 
> My neighbor had that happen just this week. His drainage tile got clogged. His side yard got all soggy and it is well graded. Right after a heavy rain he found the break. The water was bubbling up from the break. You might be able to put some dye in the pipe if you have a cleanout uphill by the house to test and see where it's draining.
> 
> If there's a broken tile system or french drain regrading wont fix the sogginess.


Thanks Hoosier, I'll definitely have to check those pipes out. Unfortunately, no cleanouts anywhere, no drainage box, and really no telling how this drainage system was down. I might just have to start digging one day soon, and try to figure out what they did.

Thanks for the help!


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## AGrayson84 (Jul 10, 2020)

So I guess one thing that I'd like to keep in mind about this overall issue, and why I was contemplating replacing the clay, is not only for the drainage and resulting sogginess of the yard, but also to just improve the soil for the grass. If I somehow manage to address the sogginess of the clay without replacing the soil, I still have very heavy, compacted clay soil for my grass. I have shallow roots all over in my tall fescue lawn.... whether the clay is wet, damp, or dry and rock-hard, my grass has a hard time getting deep roots and just dies off every summer, even if I water it properly, cut it properly, and give it proper nutrients, etc.

So the problem is really two-fold. And I feel like as long as there is this much clay on the first X inches of the soil, every time it gets wet it's going to turn to mud and take time to dry, even if it's a hot and sunny day for several days after it rains. Like I've mentioned in a few other posts on this thread, even the steepest grades in the yard, where water doesn't stand a chance of collecting, it stays muddy after a rain.

I might have a hookup on some composted horse manure, and a lot of it. As much as I don't want anything to do with manure, will tilling that in with some pelletized gypsum and some sand potentially be a problem solver for both the drainage issues, and for the fertility of grass??


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## Easyluck (Feb 5, 2019)

The best way to improve your soil is to get a soil test. Once you know Ph and Nutrient deficiencies you can start correcting. You can have an excellent looking lawn with clay soil but you need to know what your starting with.

Tilling your soil will not control the water issues. You need to figure out where all the water is coming from, whether surface or ground and then redirect it. When it starts raining go outside and observe.

Another possibility is that you have any underground spring that spills out when it rains.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Another trick i learned was to run a garden hose in a pipe or gutter to see where it drains.

If you know where it drains, and it doesnt drain, you know its clogged.

You could also add dye to more easily find it.

So, in my case, i have gutters that fed into a tile system. I ran a hose in them, and was able to see there was a blockage since I know where they discharge.

I fixed mine by rerouting the gutters to drain on the surface.


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

@AGrayson84 
I'm in similar boat here in Norther VA but not quite as bad as you. When we had the rain this past month, I'm feeling much of the same pain that you are showing in the video. The difference is that I do have downspouts away from the house but when they exit, they essentially flood the lawn unless I get french drains to extend it all the way out the sewers which is too costly.

While I have not solved all of my problems, I have attempted a few things with some improvements. Here's what I would recommend. 
Goto HD/Lowes and get 50 ft corrugated pipes and make sure the water drain out as much as possible. If you can't afford french drains, is it possible to hide the pipes among mulch or areas where the neighbors won't notice?

Get a ProPlugger. This is an awesome tool and worth every penny. I can now pull huge 6" plugs (for soil tests) but also transplant grass / clay. With the holes, backfill it with compost or combination of products like Harvest ClayBreaker with Gypsum. Some holes I fill completely with coarse sand for drainage.

In spring time I put down Humic DG and Biochar to help amend the soil across all of the lawn. While this will take multiple years to fully improve it is something that adds on itself and incrementally improvement over time that will benefit soil fertility and your lawn in the long run. On monthly basis I spray humic based GCF NEXT products and/or K4L. Ideally you if you are apply these granular and liquid products with ProPlugger holes it works even deeper. Deeper roots and root cycling is likely fastest and cheapest way to add OM to our bad clay at scale.

Before summer stress, apply Penterra to try to penetrate the clay soil. I alternate this with Air8 to create fractures in the clay. I highly recommend this with ProPluggers holes whenever possible. Water deeply afterwards to get it down into the ground.

Right now approaching fall I dig more ProPlugger holes and fill them with different combinations of compost, peat moss, black kow, topsoil and claybreaker. It's hard to tell which works best but I know adding OM over time and deeply will solve much of our problems organically.

I know this sounds like a lot of work but ProPlugger can pull a lot of plugs fast and easier than you think especially when the lawn is fairly moist from waterlogging. Just imagine having all these 4" and 6" holes holding water as your clay improves.

Lastly, I'm also contemplating bringing in topsoil and compost to help w/ the soil but it's not cheap either and Im afraid it will introduce weeds (especially onces I can't control easily).


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