# Prodiamine v. Dithiopyr



## Jwsjr (May 16, 2018)

Happy New Year all!! Going into my first full year of grass growing since joining TLF. Learned so much last year very anxious to reap the rewards this year. Right now, my plan is in place to apply Prodiamine twice annual...already applied .5/annual max in September and will apply the other half in March. My question is would it be beneficial for me to add an application of Dithiopyr to the mix? See some applying in the middle of summer. What weeds would Dithiopyr handle that Prodiamine doesn't? My biggest problem last year was Poa.....hoping to not see this year or at least at a minimum. Had some Crabgrass, Dallisgrass, Johnson grass and a couple of broad leafs. Worked the post emerge overtime last year and got everything under control. Its a new house to me and the previous owner obviously wasn't overly concerned with weeds ...at least not as much as me.

I've also been in contact with the regional manager on the Cub Cadet Infinicut....man that thing is sweet. It's on my wish list in the next year or so.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Both work in a very similar capacity, same mode of action.

When and what was the last pre-em applied?


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## Jwsjr (May 16, 2018)

Prodimine at .5/annual max in mid September. I'm in Zone 8a Mississippi.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I'd stick with prodiamine and the split apps. You may want to consider your timing based on when the temps change in your area. I'm in north Alabama and apply in February/March and again late October. I dose accordingly for the months of coverage I neee.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

This guy sealed the deal for me to go with Dithiopyr, even though it's a tad more expensive and doesn't last as long. He really seems to know his stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GquKiF2QUc&t=747s

For me, I was overrun with broadleaf weeds last year such as chickweed and henbit. Prodiamine does not control these. Sure, I had minimal crabgrass using Prodiamine, but for me it certainly didn't last as long as advertised, and I got crabgrass anyway by July. Also, the part in the video about "root pruning" really alarmed me, as I'm still in the stage of trying to get my bermuda to take over cool season grasses, and I need it to fill in as quickly as possible. I don't want those rhizomes/runners hindered in any way. So, I bought some Celsius and plan on blanket spraying that at the first sign of crabgrass.

This is just my plan of action for my northern edge of zone 7 transition zone lawn. That could factor in for me in some way.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Prodiamine most certainly controls both chickweed and henbit - they're on the label, and I can confirm near 100% efficiency. Of course, you have to apply it at the appropriate time - before the seed germinates.

If only pre-emergents actually hindered Bermuda from spreading...ha ha


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## rhanna (Jun 7, 2017)

I believe that Dithiopyr has some post emergence control, I'm assuming on very young plants so if you miss the window of pre emergence and weeds have already germinated use Dithiopyr. 
I think @LawnCareNut has a video somewhere that mentions using both and I think it depends on, how long is your growing season? If you are in Florida you might need to use both.

I think prodiamine is label as controlling Henbit and chickweed.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> This guy sealed the deal for me to go with Dithiopyr, even though it's a tad more expensive and doesn't last as long. He really seems to know his stuff.


He does know his stuff - that's why he opted to offer Carbon-X with Prodiamine, not Dithiopyr. 

There is a place in the market for both products.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Dithiopyr does have some post emergent control on extremely young plants.
http://www.turfrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/post-crab-table.png

With that being said, both work. Prodiamine is generally cheaper and lasts longer, but both are viable options.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Personally, I went with Barricade in mid-fall. And plan on doing a second app in Late Feb. As for post emerging weeds, I plan on getting Celcius for that. Grass factor is an awesome resource.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Prodiamine most certainly controls both chickweed and henbit - they're on the label, and I can confirm near 100% efficiency. Of course, you have to apply it at the appropriate time - before the seed germinates.
> 
> If only pre-emergents actually hindered Bermuda from spreading...ha ha


My mistake. I meant to say hairy bittercress and corn speedwell, which were terrible for me. I get my broadleaves mixed up.

I can't confirm 100% that pre-ems actually slow down bermuda fill-in, but for me, this guy simply made the decision easier by saying Dithiophyr is less of a "root-pruner" than Prodiamine is. Watch the video from about 5 min on. He does say bermuda "can be a little tolerant of it". Well.. that's not convincing enough for me. Lol. I want it to grow in like no tomorrow 

Ironically, I may actually switch to Prodiamine in a couple years, after, hopefully, I get the bittercress/speedwell/broadleaves under control, AND, my bermuda is well established. Remember, I have a shorter window up here for bermuda to fill in, so again, I don't want anything setting it back in the slightest in the warm months. And, that's exactly why I went with Celsius for post-em, because it's supposed to treat at high temps. As with grass, or in the gym, it's about "maximizing gainz"  haha.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> j4c11 said:
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> > Prodiamine most certainly controls both chickweed and henbit - they're on the label, and I can confirm near 100% efficiency. Of course, you have to apply it at the appropriate time - before the seed germinates.
> ...


If root pruning is really a concern for you why not invest in Ronstar (Oxadiazon). I realize it's not labeled for residential lawns but only because it can be a mild skin irritant. If that's a concern simply water it in directly after application.

I also feel that the root pruning aspects of these pre-emergents when strictly talking about the effects on Bermuda grass establishment is blown out of proportion.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I've been told the negative effects are only "noticeable" if the application is made during the transition from dormancy to active growth.



high leverage said:


> andymac7 said:
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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Thanks for the replies.

But I'm afraid they don't address the "root-pruning" issue clearly enough. @Jwsjr would probably like to know all details about the two pre-ems before making a final decision.

So, @high leverage, do you think root-pruning (as it affects bermuda) is blown out of proportion because you simply haven't witnessed it with your own lawn, or for some other reason?

And you're not kidding Ronstar is an investment! Lol. $$$ yikes.

@Smokindog if the effects are only noticeable when coming out of dormancy, then that's enough for me to avoid Prodiamine. I want the fastest greenup I can get.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But I'm afraid they don't address the "root-pruning" issue clearly enough. @Jwsjr would probably like to know all details about the two pre-ems before making a final decision.
> 
> ...


I am a commercial applicator. I do this for a living. My reputation is based on the quality of turf. I use Prodiamine and Indaziflam on all my warm season customers lawns. Strictly use Prodiamine on my Fescue lawns.

I have many examples of customers removing very large established trees from their lawn. These areas were almost completely void of any grass or vegetation because of lack of sunlight. Once the tree was removed I've seen these areas completely fill-in in just a single season. These areas were treated just like the rest of the lawn. I apply Indazilfam in September/ October, Prodiamine in February/ March, and Indaziflam in May. I've witnessed no ill effects with the ability of Bermuda to spread and establish even with the use of what is widely referred to as the "worst root pruner" on the market Specticle (Indaziflam).


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

high leverage said:


> andymac7 said:
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Ok, thanks for good solid evidence @high leverage. You might just change my mind then . Like I said, I'm gonna try to knock out the bittercress, speedwell and other broadleafs and might just switch over to Prodiamine.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> high leverage said:
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I have no issues with the use of Dithiopyr. And I'm not trying to talk you out of using it. I think it's a great product. However in my situation the cost-benefit analysis of Prodiamine vs Dithiopyr didn't justify the extra price to use Dithiopyr.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

andymac7 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But I'm afraid they don't address the "root-pruning" issue clearly enough. @Jwsjr would probably like to know all details about the two pre-ems before making a final decision.
> 
> ...


I'm into my 6th year using Specticle (125 acres / year @ 6oz/A in Mid November). With that said, I've not had a single issue with "root pruning", and I know many other superintendents who would say the same thing. It's a catch phrase that seems to scare a lot of people who have never used the product. In the end, if applied properly, it's hands down the best pre-em (fall / winter) on the market- and safe too.



http://imgur.com/ToseijG


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I did not intend to say anything of one choice over the other. My comment was simply about pre-emergent effect on growth period. I've only seen comment that you should avoid *application* during the transition period. 
OK before, OK after, just not during.


andymac7 said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> But I'm afraid they don't address the "root-pruning" issue clearly enough. @Jwsjr would probably like to know all details about the two pre-ems before making a final decision.
> 
> ...


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## Stellar P (Apr 13, 2018)

Just a friendly reminder. 
Last year was my first Prodiamine app. I ordered a spreadable granular through Domyown and got it late because of them selling out (Thanks LCN!). If you plan on ordering that, I'd do it now.
I put a reminder in my phone to order this week, but I've since purchased sprayable Prodiamine. Timing is everything and I believe I missed my Spring 2018 window by a week too late.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

These are all generally available at big box stores, your local weed and feed type supplier, lesco, site one, keeling, your co-op, etc.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

I was advised to apply Ronstar this year for my Bermuda renovation project (common bermuda takeover, we'll call it) based on it being the least worst root pruner. Based on some limited research in toxicological databases and EPA reports - I like to know the properties of the active ingredients and read the animal studies on effects since this is going down on my personal property and will be in contact with myself, family, pets - I've complied the following information on pre-emergents and post-emergents:



This is not meant to say any chemical is inherently dangerous or carcinogenic particularly when applied in accordance with the label but this is part of my due dilligence process, nothing more, nothing less.

I've decided to use both Dithiopyr and Prodiamine but decided against Oxadiazon/Ronstar, FWIW.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Also, if you are curious, Glyphosate/Roundup is classified as "Not Likely To Be Carcinogenic To Humans".


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## BermudaOCD (May 7, 2018)

high leverage said:


> andymac7 said:
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High Leverage,

What's your method of application of Indaziflam in May on Bermuda? Spot spraying?


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## thesouthernreelmower (Aug 28, 2018)

We are talking about Bermuda here. It's invasive and considered a weed by many. You won't see any I'll effects if you follow the application label.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

BermudaOCD said:


> high leverage said:
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All pre-emergents are blanket sprayed.


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## BermudaOCD (May 7, 2018)

high leverage said:


> BermudaOCD said:
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Thanks! I was just reading the label and it said:

"Do not use on desirable turfgrass"

And

"A subsequent application of SPECTICLE TOTAL can be made 4 months after the initial application to extend weed control. Certain
hard-to-control weeds can be re-sprayed 1 month after initial treatment only using spot treatment. The maximum applied rate must
not exceed 32 fl oz of product/1000 sq ft. in a 12 month period."

I know the active ingredients are different I just didn't know if there was any harm in doing Prodiamine in March and Indaziflam in May. And I know Bermuda is resilient but I wasn't sure if there would be any stress on the lawn using it in May at the recommended rate of 16oz/1000 sq ft.


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## friscolawner (Sep 24, 2018)

i think none of them 
Specticle is better .Litttle expensive though


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

BermudaOCD said:


> high leverage said:
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Specticle total and specticle flo, are not the same product. You don't want to use specticle total on your turf grass; that one is NOT a pre-em. Specticle flo, however, is.


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

If I add a full rate around Sept 1st with Dimension, how long would I have coverage,, I have Prodiamine, but heard Dithiopyr works better with the Winter Weeds, mainly Henbit and Poa


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