# TTTF/KBG blend vs pure KBG (Central NC)



## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

So my lawn is just... ugh. It's pretty much beyond salvaging right now. I moved into this house a couple of years ago and have been trying to bring the lawn up to snuff, but I don't think it's happening. Of the grasses currently living in my yard, it's mostly tall fescue, but a wide variety of (largely ugly) stuff. Lots of the super thick bladed nasty junk, some fine fescue mixed in there in places... it's just a horribly uncoordinated mess. A large reason for the back yard's condition was a bowl-shaped area that just swamped over every time it rained. Yuck.

I have largely flattened out the yard and have installed an enormous (~100 foot, 2 points of entry for the water meeting in a Y connection) french drain that took care of the remaining drainage issues in the back. I also had an irrigation system installed. Should be set for success now.

Problem is, even if I get a nice blend right now, the existing crap is going to hinder any look I'm trying to establish. So I'm doing a full kill off and reseed.

Considering between a TTTF/KBG 80/20 blend or just going full KBG. Either way, I'll be getting the best seed I can find (and I'm down for suggestions). I know KBG can do poorly in NC summers without irrigation, but that's not a problem here, given the new irrigation system. I've got some shady areas (~5-6 hours of sunlight in summer) in the lawn, but I hear some KBG cultivars will be ok in that.

So... thoughts? Pure KBG vs TTTF/KBG mix?


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Do you want to mow low now or in the future?


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Mowing height isn't super important to me. I'm more concerned with density, self-repairability, weed resistance, and the overall look of the lawn year round.

If the mowing height question is important, I'm eyeing the long term. So I guess I have a mild preference toward mowing low over the next few years rather than getting immediate results.


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## SpiveyJr (Jun 7, 2018)

United Seed has a blend Super Turf II that's 93/7 TTTF/KBG and even though it's not 80/20 it does look great and surprisingly grows low and tight.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

If I was going with pure KBG, and given that my yard has some moderately shady areas, I was looking at a combination of 90% S1100 Bluegrass Blend (https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100006/ss1100-bluegrass-blend)(some of which is somewhat shade tolerant) and 10% Mazama Kentucky Bluegrass (https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100112/mazama-kentucky-bluegrass) (which specifically advertises as shade tolerant) from Seed Superstore.

Happy to be told that I'm wrong and need something entirely different, though.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Smaptastic said:


> Mowing height isn't super important to me. I'm more concerned with density, self-repairability, weed resistance, and the overall look of the lawn year round.


Barenbrug's Turf Blue HGT is what you're looking for. It's a 100% bluegrass mix that contains two of the best performing cultivars in the transition zone. It is also essentially bulletproof as far as disease goes. One of the varieties in the mix is also top in shade trials. Skip the fescue altogether.

You may want to look into purchasing the seed soon. It's being harvested around this time, and they tend to run out early August.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

j4c11 said:


> Barenbrug's Turf Blue HGT is what you're looking for. It's a 100% bluegrass mix that contains two of the best performing cultivars in the transition zone. It is also essentially bulletproof as far as disease goes. One of the varieties in the mix is also top in shade trials. Skip the fescue altogether.
> 
> You may want to look into purchasing the seed soon. It's being harvested around this time, and they tend to run out early August.


That stuff looks a little sketchy. At various points on the site it says something like:


> Turf Blue HGT features 35% Barvette HGT for unusually strong performance in the Transition Zone of the central USA. Coated with Yellow Jacket Enhanced Seed Coating.


It doesn't mention the other 65% of its composition _anywhere_, and I've been led to believe that seed coatings are more or less junk filler. The Turf Blue Pro mentions Barserati, but that is not considered a top performer in our state: https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/2017-top-performing-tall-fescue-kentucky-bluegrass-and-fine-fescue-cultivars


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Smaptastic said:


> That stuff looks a little sketchy. At various points on the site it says something like:


Barenbrug is one of the largest seed producers in the world. And Turf Blue HGT is used on sports fields around the US and indeed, the world. There's nothing sketchy about it.

Here's Turf Blue HGT at Busch Stadium in St Louis, MI










Here it is in my yard in Greensboro NC:



The reason Barvette HGT is only 35% is because it's an aggressively spreading variety and would quickly become dominant if they put more of it in there. Other varieties in the mix are Barserati, Barimpala, Barrari and Barrister. They each have their pros and cons, but the mix is designed for high tolerance to traffic, high disease resistance, quick recovery. Which is what you said you were after.

You're looking at 2017 article, Barserati wasn't even on the market at the time. Check out the final NTEP report for the transition zone, page 41
http://www.ntep.org/data/kb11/kb11_17-10f/kb11_17-10f.pdf


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Ok I'll admit I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand that NTEP report, so I will take your word on it. Is that Greensboro yard of yours 100% Turf Blue HGT? It looks fantastic!


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Smaptastic said:


> Ok I'll admit I'm not knowledgeable enough to understand that NTEP report, so I will take your word on it. Is that Greensboro yard of yours 100% Turf Blue HGT? It looks fantastic!


Thank you. 100% Turf Blue HGT, in this particular image I believe I had just applied iron and PGR, so the color is enhanced. I had it for 3 years, and it was the most trouble free grass I've ever grown - no fungus, spreads like crazy, carpet dense, excellent recovery from dormancy, no overseeding, 12 month green. All that without an irrigation system. The only pitfall is the genetic color is a bit on the lighter side, but still very nice looking. I've renovated my front yard to Midnight last fall for the darker genetic color, but back yard is still Turf Blue HGT. I've been fescue free for almost 5 years now and would never go back to it.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Cool. Given that you have renovated to Midnight, what do you think of the combo I posted above? It includes Bluebank (which seedsuperstore claims to be "the new midnight"), as well as some other (apparently) top cultivars, one of which is quite shade tolerant.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Smaptastic said:


> Cool. Given that you have renovated to Midnight, what do you think of the combo I posted above? It includes Bluebank (which seedsuperstore claims to be "the new midnight"), as well as some other top cultivars, one of which is quite shade tolerant.


Bluebank appears to score quite high in Raleigh NTEP tests, it's a solid choice. So is Mazama. With 5-6 hours of sun, shade tolerance is not really a factor, that enough sunlight for bluegrass. And some shade is actually a positive in the strong NC summer sun. People that have tested Bewitched indicated it starts out lighter and takes a few seasons to darken. Based on performance I'd increase the Mazama percentage to 30, at least.

http://www.ntep.org/data/kb11/kb11_17-9/kb11nc116t.txt


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

I actually think I'm going to do something like 40% Bluebank, 30% Blue Note, 30% Mazama, based on further reading. Where are you seeing further info on these? I'm not really sure where to look. First venture into really giving my grass seed much attention.

Edit: I am likely overestimating the sun for the shadiest patches. Some likely get ~4 hours. And if the NTEP data (which, again, I don't know enough to interpret) shows another cultivar that would do well in addition to or in place of one of those, I'd really appreciate any suggestions.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Also, I haven't said yet, but thanks so much for the assist here. It's very much appreciated.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I think either the HGT or the other mix you mentioned would be good. I have a 1,000 sqft area of Mazama and its held up well to the Kansas heat so far. We've had over a month straight of upler 80s to mid 90s. This was yesterday.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Ok Holy crap I just tried to read the NTEP stuff and it looks like the HGT blows everything else completely out of the water except for the color. Hot damn.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

ksturfguy said:


> I think either the HGT or the other mix you mentioned would be good. I have a 1,000 sqft area of Mazama and its held up well to the Kansas heat so far. We've had over a month straight of upler 80s to mid 90s. This was yesterday.


That looks amazing. Very nice!


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@j4c11 was my inspiration for trying TUrf Blue HGT in my back lawn reno. We are deep in the transition zone with moderate to heavy shade as well. Hampton Road/ Tidewater area of the Virginia coast. I'm a huge fan and will scalp my TTTF front yard this fall and overseed with HGT. Color is Way better than I expected.

I'm currently battling what looks to be Pythium blight. We had a wet May and June and I believe I was cutting too high. Definitely need to do preventative fungicide with any cool season grass in the transition zone. My fault on that. But otherwise very happy. You can check out my lawn journal. Link in sig.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

Ok, hot damn. Tried my best to grasp the NTEP stuff and took into account the above advice. It seems like my best options are down to three:


*HGT Only*. Upsides: Looks to have the overall best NTEP ratings by a pretty much uncontested margin. Good in all categories. Downsides: Color isn't as good as the others on the list. Seems like I can only order in a (minimum) 50 lb. bag?

*Mono Mazama*. Upsides: Color, still pretty darn good. Downsides: Lower NTEP ratings than HGT. Mono = more prone to getting seriously wiped by diseases.

*Manzama/Bluebank (50/50)*. Upsides: Color (the two seem very similar), both are well-rated with NTEP, mix means more likely to resist crap than mono Mazama. Downsides: A little concerned that one will grow higher than the other and not look great between mowings. Bluebank is a ways down the list from Mazama and HGT, though still relatively high.

So this is an interesting pickle. Any additional weigh-ins would be appreciated.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

If you're wanting uniformity than the mono is the way to go. Just have fungicides ready to go.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Smaptastic said:


> *HGT Only*. Upsides: Looks to have the overall best NTEP ratings by a pretty much uncontested margin. Good in all categories. Downsides: Color isn't as good as the others on the list. Seems like I can only order in a (minimum) 50 lb. bag?


Check out this place: http://toddvalleyfarms.com/store.html
Less than 50 lbs.


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## Smaptastic (May 22, 2020)

So 50lb costs about $215. I need around 25lb. At the rate on that site, 25lb would be $200. I've seen other places that offer it in smaller sizes, but they all have the same issue. 25lb comes out to about the same price as just buying the 50lb bag.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

Another option would be to add Mazama to HGT. Straight Mazama is available from CD Ford in 10#bags for $40.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Like others said, Mono is the only way to get true uniformity. But if you similar varieties of KBG you can keep growth fairly uniform and hedge your bets on disease a bit. But as others said, Fungicide is always an option to keep things at bay.

I loved my 5 way bluegrass blend + PRG when mowed. The problem was the next day the PRG would be a 1/8th of an inch taller than everything else and it bugged the hell out of me seeing all the "spikes" in the grass.

Honestly if i were you i would start with a Mono or KBG blend, and if in a year your struggling due to disease or some other reason, you can always overseed TTTF into it. Once you go TTTF/KBG blend you cant ever go back to see what a Mono/KBG only looks like without renovating the entire thing. If your willing to invest the time, start Mono, then add more varieties of KBG and or TTF in if you see it struggling.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Something else to consider is that HGT is a blend of five cultivars, not a single one. You would already be getting some of the resistance with avoiding a monostand.

That said, I would love to see an HGT and Mazama blend!


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## appsdeacs (Aug 5, 2020)

Just joined the site and have been reading and trying to learn as much as possible. I'm in WSNC, near by, and have similar lawn situation to you so I was Intrigued by approach. Thanks for writing this and to everyone that has commented. I have been looking at a tttf/kbg mix and now may go full turf blue hgt. Even found it at Nebraska turf for what seems like a good deal. Guess I'm going to jump in head first on my reno.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

I'm interested in hearing how this goes. I'm in Greensboro, and I wasn't aware that you could grow KBG here without a perfect setup.

Is it feasible to grow 5,000-10,000 sq ft KBG without irrigation, full sun? Asking for a friend...


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

I have no idea how @j4c11 maintains his without irrigation, but he does. Also believe his gets more sun than mine. I have moderate shade and it still got scorched until I watered 3x a week.

For what it's worth, here's what the Professor and Extension Turfgrass Specialist School of Plant and Environmental Sciences at Virginia Tech had to say when I asked:

Research out of HRAREC [Hampton Roads Agricultural Research and Extension Center]and NC State indicate that the fescue/bluegrass combos outperform monocultures (better disease tolerance, better color maintenance, no clumping concerns with the new fescues as it used to be, etc... these combos are now the norms for sod producers at 90% tall fescue and 10% Kentucky bluegrass... works out to be a 50/50 mix by seed count on the basis of the seed size) with the norm being regular fall interseeding of tall fescue to try to keep the bluegrass in balance... it tends to dominate over time as the bluegrass spreads by its rhizomes. So, if you have a bluegrass base, consider interseeding one of the best tall fescues into it... 2-3 lbs per 1000 sq ft... if you can aerate/seed or slit seed into the existing stand that would be ideal. Soil disruption will tend to also encourage some winter weed germination, and you can use Tenacity (mesotrione) to manage annual bluegrass in particular... can spray with one hand and seed with the other with Tenacity.

The only reason I'm hesitating is because mine is a first year lawn and J4c11's looks so good. And as some else mentioned, there's no going back once you overseed with a different species


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

Captquin said:


> I have no idea how @j4c11 maintains his without irrigation, but he does. Also believe his gets more sun than mine. I have moderate shade and it still got scorched until I watered 3x a week.
> 
> For what it's worth, here's what the Professor and Extension Turfgrass Specialist School of Plant and Environmental Sciences at Virginia Tech had to say when I asked:
> 
> ...


This makes me wonder about some of the lawns in my neighborhood. Some of them look very different from one another, and I wonder if the ones that look very different (finer blades, more....wirey?) have managed to help the KBG outperform the TTTF in the sod. I have mistreated mine, and all that's left is likely whatever variety of TTTF puts up with the worst conditions.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I just want to clarify, I do irrigate when drought stress sets in, but I don't have an irrigation system. It's quite a bit of work moving sprinklers and hoses around, but it's only for 3 months so it's worth it.

Having just renovated last fall, my not even 1 year old grass looks like carp right now. 2 and 3 year old bluegrass can take abuse much better, obviously. I'm ok with it, some controlled natural selection is a good thing. Grass that survives will get to spread its superior heat/drough characteristics, grass that goes dormant and comes back gets to spread it's superior dormancy characteristics, and grass that just dies, good riddance I don't need more of that. I'm just looking to get to fall with at least 50% of the grass and no large dead patches, I can nurse a uniformly thin KBG lawn back to health in no time.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> ...and grass that just dies, good riddance I don't need more of that.


I laughed...


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