# New lawn from scratch. Please help.



## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Hello,
Thank you to all the contributors to The Lawn Forum! This site has so much great information. My current situation:
New construction home just built in October. I know fall seedings are better, but I need to get my lawn in earlier for several reasons. My plan is:
1. Rockhound, grade flat, and bring in topsoil for low areas.
2. Seed using SS1000 TTTF from Seed Superstore.
3. Topdress with peat moss.
4. I'll probably use something with Mesotrione when I seed, such as Tenacity, or a 21-22-4 w/ 0.08% Mesotrione from Advanced Turf Solutions.

Does this plan sound good and do I need to add topsoil and rototill my entire property, or can I just topsoil the low spots? I'm in Northeast Ohio and I have 12,000 sq'.

Thank you guys for any help or input!


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Welcome to TLF!

Sounds good. Have you checked the soil at least 6" down in a few areas, to see what its comprised of? What about a soil sample? It would be good to know what you're working with, since it's all new construction. As far as your plan us concerned, it's simple, but basically a good plan. Do you have irrigation? If it doesn't pan out, you can start over in the fall. There's a lot of info on TLF, so check out the Cool Season Guide, Lawn Journals and reno threads.


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## Dkrem (Mar 16, 2019)

+1 to soil sample while you are in a perfect position to do bulk corrections.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Chris LI said:


> Welcome to TLF!
> 
> Sounds good. Have you checked the soil at least 6" down in a few areas, to see what its comprised of? What about a soil sample? It would be good to know what you're working with, since it's all new construction. As far as your plan us concerned, it's simple, but basically a good plan. Do you have irrigation? it doesn't pan out, you can start over in the fall. There's a lot of info on TLF, so check out the Cool Season Guide, Lawn Journals and reno threads.


Thank you for replying. I have sent a soil sample to Michigan State University and I'm awaiting the results. My soil appears to be a clay/loam mix, but I'm hoping the soil test will have a better idea of the exact soil type.

I do not have irrigation. Thats why I am going with the TTTF instead of KBG. I was planning on doing KBG, but changed my mind and plan on TTTF after hearing some locals say the trouble they have with KBG in our area without irrigation.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to TLF.

I would not tilt. Tilt breaks the soil structure and ends up in a bumpy uneven lawn. Look for construction debris now. It is one of my biggest regrets on my current house.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> Welcome to TLF.
> 
> I would not tilt. Tilt breaks the soil structure and ends up in a bumpy uneven lawn. Look for construction debris now. It is one of my biggest regrets on my current house.


Thank you! So I should just remove any construction debris, rock hound, and fill any low spots with either the dirt on site or topsoil, then seed?
Thank you.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes.

Weeds are going to be a problem. It is likely that the house was in a weed field before construction and all those seeds are there waiting. I would recommend liquid tenacity, but that involves a sprayer. The one from advance turf is a good approach too, but more $$.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

I like your plan, but would echo @g-man and his weed concerns.

I would modify your plan as such:
1. Rockhound, grade flat, and bring in topsoil for low areas.
2. Seed using SS1000 TTTF from Seed Superstore.
3. Spray Tenacity over the whole area
4. Also put 21-22-4 w/ 0.08% Mesotrione from Advanced Turf Solutions
5. Put down Milo or an organic slow release fert to keep it fed 
6. Topdress with peat moss (3 cu ft per 500 sq ft)
7. Put down Dimension 45 days after seeding (this would handle post emergent weed control)


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

MassHole said:


> I like your plan, but would echo @g-man and his weed concerns.
> 
> I would modify your plan as such:
> 1. Rockhound, grade flat, and bring in topsoil for low areas.
> ...


Thanks Mass! So you recommend I spray Tenacity after the seed is down, but before the peat moss topdressing? And do you recommend I still do a slow release fertilizer even if I do the 21-22-4 w Mesotrione at seeding?
Thanks guys, this is great info!


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> Thanks Mass! So you recommend I spray Tenacity after the seed is down, but before the peat moss topdressing? And do you recommend I still do a slow release fertilizer even if I do the 21-22-4 w Mesotrione at seeding?
> Thanks guys, this is great info!


Seed, starter, Milo, Tenacity spray. Then peat moss. One right after another.

I recommend the slow release to feed the seedlings once the starter is used up, and Milo takes heat to break down.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Ohio Lawn said:


> 4. I'll probably use something with Mesotrione when I seed, such as Tenacity, or a 21-22-4 w/ 0.08% Mesotrione from Advanced Turf Solutions.


FYI, that and the Scotts brand are apparently the exact same product:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4267&p=91728&hilit=Scotts#p91728


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Btw, as long as the granular starter with Meso is used at the correct rate (@g-man, maybe you know how to convert...my mass-density calculation skills need to be reviewed), the liquid on top of it is just overkill...and might also result in white seedlings due to too much Mesotrione. Better use of the liquid is for the second application after the first mow, so you don't waste your yearly max.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

@Green @MassHole @g-man I can't thank you enough for all this great information! Id definitely like to know if the 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione is adequate weed control when I spread the seed, or if I should use Tenacity at seeding also. Im not worried about the cost. I just don't want to harm the seed.
Thanks


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## JustGW (Sep 21, 2018)

I would think the best way could be to use the granular product at the time of seeding and then use the liquid for a follow on application 4 weeks later if you find it necessary.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Ohio Lawn 
Tenacity is the brand name of mesotrisone.

The 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione already has mesotrisone and you do not want to double up. Therefore use either 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione or Tenacity. Per the product label (please read it and don't trust just my words), you can use mesotrisone at seed down and 30days after germination. It will protect against the target weeds and allow grass seeds to grow. It only last around 30days so you will need to reapply or use a different product to give you further protection.


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## Two9tene (May 27, 2018)

I will tell you that I regret not looking for construction debries, or at least having the builder do it.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

@Two9tene I will definitely remove all construction debris from the yard.

Here is my updated plan, after all the great information I got from you guys:
1. Rockhound, topsoil for low areas, and grade smooth.
2. Seed using SS1000 TTTF @ Seeding Rate: 8 lbs./1000 sq'
3. Put down 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione
4. Put down Milorganite @ 25-50 lbs/1000 sq'
5. Gently work the seed and Milo into the soil 1/8 of an inch.
6. Top-dress w/ peat moss (3 cu ft per 500 sq')
7. Put down Tenacity or Dimension 30-45 days after seeding.

Does that look good?


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Too much Milo - 36 lbs covers 2500 sq ft


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ +1 too much nitrogen.

The seeds have their own food source store in them for the first weeks. The 21-22-4 will have some slow release nitrogen in it to cover you for the first month. Do the Milo after the first month and around 8lb/ksqft.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Ok @g-man @MassHole , so just the 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione at seeding and then the Milo a month after seeding @ 8lb/1000 sq'?


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> Ok @g-man @MassHole , so just the 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione at seeding and then the Milo a month after seeding @ 8lb/1000 sq'?


14.4 lbs / 1000 for the 36 lb bag, at time of seeding.


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## jayteebee (Mar 26, 2019)

MassHole said:


> I like your plan, but would echo @g-man and his weed concerns.
> 
> I would modify your plan as such:
> 1. Rockhound, grade flat, and bring in topsoil for low areas.
> ...


Newbie here trying to learn so apologies in advance for throwing off this conversation y'all have going here.

With that being said, could anyone shed light on number 3 and 7 for me? I'm curious why Tenacity was suggested after seeding TTTF, and then Dimension 45 days later. Is Tenacity better immediately after seeding and Dimension better after a few weeks?

Furthermore, are both Tenacity/ Mesotrione and Dimension/ Dithipyr used as a pre & post-em? I thought Dimension was strictly pre-em but I'm guessing these two are used interchangeably?

Clear as mud? :lol:

Edit: got a couple active ingredients mixed up to make it even more confusing... now fixed


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## Dkrem (Mar 16, 2019)

Mesotrione/Tenacity is a great herbicide and is safe for most grass at seeding. It is super versatile, as a post-emergent when on leaves and a pre-emergent when in the soil. The effects as a pre-em don't last long though -about a month to six weeks or so. It is a great crutch to use when seeding if you would like to deal with as few undesirable plants as you can later.

Dithipyr/Dimension is one of the standard pre-em products; mostly a pre-emergent but also has some post emergent control effects. It lasts much longer and is cheaper than mesotrione. It will kill your germinating and baby grass though.


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## jayteebee (Mar 26, 2019)

Thank you for clearing that up Dkrem!


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> ^ +1 too much nitrogen.
> 
> The seeds have their own food source store in them for the first weeks. The 21-22-4 will have some slow release nitrogen in it to cover you for the first month. Do the Milo after the first month and around 8lb/ksqft.


So I'm confused on how much Milo at seeding and/or after seeding. I'm definitely doing the 21-22-4 at seeding. Can you clear this up for me please?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It all depends on how much nitrogen you want.

0.5lb of N/ksqft = 8lb Milo/ksqft.
0.75lb of N/ksqft = 12lb/ksqft
1lb of N/ksqft = 16.5lb/ksqft

This is based on the 6 percent of nitrogen. Keep in mind that Milo guarantee analysis is a minimum of and not a max. Also, Milo depends on the soil to release some of the nutrients.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> It all depends on how much nitrogen you want.
> 
> 0.5lb of N/ksqft = 8lb Milo/ksqft.
> 0.75lb of N/ksqft = 12lb/ksqft
> ...


Thanks! How much Milo would you put down at seeding and would you put it down again 30-45 days post seeding?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I know I am very different in this subject to what most folks do or what it is recommended by Univ publications. This is what I do:

Seed downnly Phosphorus and tenacity.
3 weeks after germination (around 4 from seed down) - start 0.25lb/ksqft of ammonium sulfate AS weekly
Continue nitrogen and scale back based on how it looks until 8 weeks after germination (WAG).

Why I do this? I don't see the point of nitrogen the first week since the roots can't do much with it. They do benefit from phosphorus. I use AS because it is immediately available to the plants. The roots are short, so the weekly AS helps keep the area that could use it have some nitrogen.


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## Dkrem (Mar 16, 2019)

g-man said:


> ...I don't see the point of nitrogen the first week since the roots can't do much with it. They do benefit from phosphorus. I use AS because it is immediately available to the plants. The roots are short, so the weekly AS helps keep the area that could use it have some nitrogen.


Makes quite a bit of sense to me.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> I know I am very different in this subject to what most folks do or what it is recommended by Univ publications. This is what I do:
> 
> Seed downnly Phosphorus and tenacity.
> 3 weeks after germination (around 4 from seed down) - start 0.25lb/ksqft of ammonium sulfate AS weekly
> ...


Thank you for the information. It is getting a little over my head and a little advanced for me. I plan on having a company take care of my fertilization program once my lawn is established. I am just trying to start off on the right foot without going too crazy (I usually overthink things).

Here is my current plan, after all the great information I got from you guys:
1. Rockhound, topsoil for low areas, and grade smooth.
2. Seed using SS1000 TTTF @ Seeding Rate: 8 lbs./1000 sq'
3. Put down 21-22-4 w/ Mesotrione
4. Gently work the seed into the soil 1/8 of an inch.
5. Top-dress w/ peat moss (3 cu ft per 500 sq')
6. Put down Milo 30-45 days after germination. (16 lbs./1000 sq')
7. Put down Tenacity again 30-45 days after germination.

Thoughts?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Others can correct me as there are more knowledgable folks on this thread, but here are my suggestions:

1. Rent or purchase a lawn roller for #4. 
2. Order extra seed, I think you will likely have to overseed in the fall. 
3. Since you are forgoing a true preem and for the reason @g-man mentioned, you are going to battle some weeds this year once the Tenacity wears off. You will want to have a good broadleaf herbicide as well as something containing quinclorac for crabgrass on hand. Weed b gon crabgrass should be good, I would think.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

gm560 said:


> Others can correct me as there are more knowledgable folks on this thread, but here are my suggestions:
> 
> 1. Rent or purchase a lawn roller for #4.
> 2. Order extra seed, I think you will likely have to overseed in the fall.
> 3. Since you are forgoing a true preem and for the reason @g-man mentioned, you are going to battle some weeds this year once the Tenacity wears off. You will want to have a good broadleaf herbicide as well as something containing quinclorac for crabgrass on hand. Weed b gon crabgrass should be good, I would think.


Thank you. Do you recommend just using the roller to get seed/soil contact, or lightly rake in and then use the roller?
Thanks


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> > Others can correct me as there are more knowledgable folks on this thread, but here are my suggestions:
> ...


I just used the roller. I would think this would be sufficient because it looks like you are planning to top dress with peat moss.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

gm560 said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > gm560 said:
> ...


Yes I am doing peat moss. Is there any true pre-emergent that can be put down at seeding to help with weeds?


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

On a side note, I received my soil test today for the area I'm planting the lawn. 
https://postimg.cc/7CvqPvQm


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> > Ohio Lawn said:
> ...


Not that I am aware of and frankly I am not sure you want one. It might interfere with seeding any spots you would need to fill in come fall.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Thanks for all the help guys. I really appreciate it. I'm going to start a journal in a couple weeks. Keeping my fingers crossed that it all turns out ok.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Two9tene said:


> I will tell you that I regret not looking for construction debries, or at least having the builder do it.


Exactly, I dug it all out myself with a dingo. And hand leveled/dug everything.

They won't do it if it's not in a contract and they don't care if they show up and the works already done. Most contractors don't put much or any value on the lawn so you can do what you please.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I seeded without peatmoss and had excellent results.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

ABC123 said:


> I seeded without peatmoss and had excellent results.


What did you use to top dress?


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Gentlemen,
Can you just take one last look at my plan and let me know if the order of steps looks good and the rest of the plan looks ok? I'd really appreciate it!

1. Rockhound, topsoil for low areas, and grade smooth.
2. Put down Tenacity
3. Seed using SS1000 TTTF
4. Gently work the seed w/ rake & then use a roller for seed to soil contact
5. Apply starter fertilizer (19-26-6)
6. Top-dress w/ peat moss (3 cu ft per 500 sq')
7. Put down Milo 30 days after germination (8 lbs./1000 sq')
8. Put down Tenacity after 2nd mow or 4 weeks after germination.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Gentlemen,
Can you just take one last look at my plan and let me know if the order of steps looks good and the rest of the plan looks ok? I'd really appreciate it!

1. Rockhound, topsoil for low areas, and grade smooth.
2. Put down Tenacity
3. Seed using SS1000 TTTF
4. Gently work the seed w/ rake & then use a roller for seed to soil contact
5. Apply starter fertilizer (19-26-6)
6. Top-dress w/ peat moss (3 cu ft per 500 sq')
7. Put down Milo 30 days after germination (8 lbs./1000 sq')
8. Put down Tenacity after 2nd mow or 4 weeks after germination.

Does this plan look ok?


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

Looks like a good plan to me.

Make sure you keep your seed damp and then start watering deeper and less frequently once you have germination.


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## Ge0rdi3brit (Aug 30, 2018)

Do you need to rake and roll the seed in if you're top dressing? I would think top dressing with peat moss gives you your seed/soil contact as the seed will be buried underneath the peat moss you apply.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Ohio Lawn said:


> ABC123 said:
> 
> 
> > I seeded without peatmoss and had excellent results.
> ...


 De-thatched the surface and reel rolled it smooth


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Ohio Lawn said:


> Gentlemen,
> Can you just take one last look at my plan and let me know if the order of steps looks good and the rest of the plan looks ok? I'd really appreciate it!
> 
> 1. Rockhound, topsoil for low areas, and grade smooth.
> ...


Looks like a good plan. :thumbup:

Take a look at my journal and see what steps I did - https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=218#p3126


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## KevC (Dec 27, 2018)

@Ohio Lawn 
was just wondering what rate folks used Peat Moss at to get adequate coverage - did each compressed 3 cu ft bag provide good coverage per 500 sq ft? (or have you not got to that step yet?) 
I have 2K sq feet of new seeding I am planning on undertaking in the next week, and was thinking I would need 10+ bags (3 cu ft each) 
thanks for any input 
Kevin C


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

KevC said:


> @Ohio Lawn
> was just wondering what rate folks used Peat Moss at to get adequate coverage - did each compressed 3 cu ft bag provide good coverage per 500 sq ft? (or have you not got to that step yet?)
> I have 2K sq feet of new seeding I am planning on undertaking in the next week, and was thinking I would need 10+ bags (3 cu ft each)
> thanks for any input
> Kevin C


I'd love to know the same thing. I am doing mine next week. Any thoughts anyone?


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> KevC said:
> 
> 
> > @Ohio Lawn
> ...


I've seeded multiple renos with peat moss, and the 3 cu ft does about 500 sq ft. The goal is not to see the seed when I do it, but not to bury it.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

@MassHole Ok thanks. Looks like I'll need 26 x 3cu ft bags of peat moss for my 13,000 sq ft'. Thats gonna take me a while with the compost roller from HD.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Ohio Lawn said:


> @MassHole Ok thanks. Looks like I'll need 26 x 3cu ft bags of peat moss for my 13,000 sq ft'. Thats gonna take me a while with the compost roller from HD.


Compost roller is a smart move. I did 9000 by hand.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

MassHole said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > @MassHole Ok thanks. Looks like I'll need 26 x 3cu ft bags of peat moss for my 13,000 sq ft'. Thats gonna take me a while with the compost roller from HD.
> ...


^+1 
I went to rent one about 2.5 years ago from HD and the guy told me that they were looking to get rid of it, so he sold it to me for a few bucks more than a day's rental. That was a nice score. I've already used it a 2-3 times on overseeds and renos for my yard, and helped a friend out last fall. Besides providing an even coat of peat moss or compost, it does a great job of sifting out large chunks.

I would ask HD if you could buy the used one, since your lawn is large. You would probably break even or be ahead even you only used it once.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Quick question, does the rockhound loosen up enough of the soil to install a brand new lawn, or do I need a Harley Rake also?


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