# Velocity and triv



## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

I have both triv and some Velocity. I bought it about 3-4 yrs ago. Part of my yard is tttf and I never totally got rid of a little bit of triv that reared it's ugly head.

I sprayed it last Tuesday and will take pics latter today. My plan is to hit it once week for three weeks. They recommend the air temps to be in between 70-85 degrees, which should work great this week, Tuesday is next dose and we will be in 70s.

I'll take pics as I go......


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Be very careful. The margin for error is very thin. A wrong overlap and bye bye grass.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

I actually sprayed my lawn about 3 yrs ago in another area so I found a sweet spot on the amount I use and amount of water. I only spot spray, no need for blanket


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Week 2 velocity vs. triv


The triv looks stressed......time will tell


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Ill be watching this.

I went down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about triv last night and landed on some research from K State.

https://krex.k-state.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/2097/17143/ColeThompson2014.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y

He did tests with both selective and non selective herbs, and the only selectives he saw have in impact were velocity and certainty. Unfort certainty no longer labeled for cool season grasses, but the one interesting thing I saw relates to what you just mentioned, the selective herbicides seem to do BETTER when coupled with heat, while glyphosate did worse once heat set in. So to me it begs the question, do these products have a place in a triv battle even when someone is going the non -selective route.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Yeah I figure if it doesn't work out I'll just dig it out and replace with one roll of sod. This is the only place I have triv and luckily it's contained in one strip. I've seen it through out lawns here and there.

It's not a close up pic but you can see it's not that bright lime green anymore. I'm doing one last app next week. Hopefully I can get a day when it's 70 degrees or above. Then I'll wait it out and see what happens.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

NJ-lawn said:


> I sprayed it last Tuesday and will take pics latter today. My plan is to hit it once week for three weeks. They recommend the air temps to be in between 70-85 degrees, which should work great this week, Tuesday is next dose and we will be in 70s.
> 
> I'll take pics as I go......


Let us know what happens. What rate are you using? The expired supplemental label is 2 to 3 oz/A at 21 to 28 day interval on fescue. I've used that and 6 oz/A. The latter smoked a ton of my fescue a few years ago.

I just did a second app of Xonerate at 6 oz/A on Monday and plan to hit the same spots with Velocity at 3 oz/A in a couple weeks.

How are you measuring the Velocity? I've been using a kitchen scale but not sure how precise it is.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

gm560 said:


> Unfort certainty no longer labeled for cool season grasses


I've wanted to try this and have the same understanding as you that Certainty was once labeled for cool season but label was pulled. There was a guy on here called masshole that I think tried Certainty and nuked his lawn, if I remember correctly. Gman would remember.



> the selective herbicides seem to do BETTER when coupled with heat


Is this from the work that Cole Thompson did at Kstate? I've read all his stuff but don't think that study was replicated by anyone else. Curious if you are seeing that from any other professional sources. Thanks


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Many have nuke their lawns with certainty.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

tgreen said:


> I've wanted to try this and have the same understanding as you that Certainty was once labeled for cool season but label was pulled. There was a guy on here called masshole that I think tried Certainty and nuked his lawn, if I remember correctly. Gman would remember.


That is correct. He wanted to get rid of the bottle totally, so I now have it (with the label for cool season turf). I used it successfully to control Triv last year (got 80% + control) and did not totally nuke the good turf. But the lawn did go dormant/brown in the Summer after using the Certainty. Came right back in late Summer (but without all the Triv).


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> NJ-lawn said:
> 
> 
> > I sprayed it last Tuesday and will take pics latter today. My plan is to hit it once week for three weeks. They recommend the air temps to be in between 70-85 degrees, which should work great this week, Tuesday is next dose and we will be in 70s.
> ...


You know I've had the Velocity for about 4 yrs or so and back then I had written down 1.6 grams in about a quart of water and spot sprayed. I don't have very much triv.....only a few spots. Spraying once a week for 3 weeks.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Is this from the work that Cole Thompson did at Kstate? I've read all his stuff but don't think that study was replicated by anyone else. Curious if you are seeing that from any other professional sources. Thanks


Yes that was the research i was reading.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Ok tomorrow I spray for the third straight week. Here is a pic from today......it looks like I maybe winning this battle.......time will tell


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

NJ-lawn said:


>


That looks promising. I know you are spot spraying but can you tell if it's killing the KBG/good grass near it?


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Is it just those 3 or 4 lighter colored spots?


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> NJ-lawn said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


It's not labeled for kbg so it's prob damaging/killing it. That section of my lawn is mostly tttf mix. I'll take a close up pic in a few days after I spray last app today. It seems to be selectively browning individual blades of grass. Not like Round Up that just wipes everything out.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

learningeveryday said:


> Is it just those 3 or 4 lighter colored spots?


Yes that's where the triv is located. I'll have to look for old pics for when the triv was thriving.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Why didn't you just spray it with glyphosate?


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

learningeveryday said:


> Why didn't you just spray it with glyphosate?


There's a few reasons......for one I have Velocity and it's supposed to be a selective herbicide. Also I used velocity about 4 yrs ago and the triv never came back in those treated areas. I've also heard stories where Glyphosate is not a total kill and the following year it comes back.

Plus I think it makes an interesting experiment, who ever is interested can follow along. And lastly I have more Velocity than I need so I may sell some. In the mean time, people can see if it works.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Here's a few close up pics


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

This is taken today......Tuesday I did 3rd and possible final app. of Velocity @1.7 grams. We had rain all day on Wednesday and temps dropping a little. I'm glad I got the final app in because the forecast is calling for cooler temps next week.

It's looking a little more stressed. I have to keep my eye out for brown patch. I think I read somewhere it could be an issue when spraying Velocity. We will see.......


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Thanks for the update. I wouldn't worry about brown patch with low temps in the 40's.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Never heard about Brown Patch. What I did hear is that Velocity acts as a fungicide that prevents Dollar Spot. And it's also a PGR as well (albeit a poor one as far as turf quality ). So, I wouldn't combine it with another PGR like Trinexapac-ethyl. (I generally used T-Pac first, then used Velocity after, as it's wearing off.)


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Yeah your right conditions are not right for brown patch. It looks similar looking the way it's dying off.

As far as pgr goes your right, it hasn't grown in weeks but it's also stunted or dying so.

I'm feeling good about wiping it out for good. Only time will tell. Big test is next spring, if it rears its ugly head again


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Ok it's been 4 weeks, looks really good. I'm feeling confident it's a total kill.


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## cleohioturf (Jul 20, 2020)

is KBG filling in those areas or is it totally stressed trying to grow in there?

Unfortunately, I think the position I am in, its large areas and to do this would essentially be the same as just doing glypho and calling it a day.

I go back and forth daily on what I want to do, either live with it, or completely burn the entire lawn. My other issue is lawns around me, tons of 100% bent, other lawns with more than 50% poa that they think is KBG, and others with tons of triv. The stuff is going to come back organically.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

How about some better pictures?


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Not much KBG in that area so I'm not expecting for much to fill in. I'll prob overseed in fall. My main concern is to kill the triv for good or at least hurt it to a point, next year be easier to control.

Here some better close ups.....




As you can see it's not totally wiped out. Some grass blades look fine.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

NJ-lawn said:


> Ok it's been 4 weeks, looks really good. I'm feeling confident it's a total kill.


You checking to see if the roots are dead also? I've sprayed triv several times with glyphosate were all top and roots appear to be dead only to have a minor amount of root/stolon left that came to life again. Now I just dig the whole thing up and move on to the next triv plant to dig up ... rinse and repeat.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^+1


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Powhatan said:


> NJ-lawn said:
> 
> 
> > Ok it's been 4 weeks, looks really good. I'm feeling confident it's a total kill.
> ...


Good point but I want to wait it out since it's only May and I don't want big bare spots all summer and I would like to see without disturbing those areas if it comes back. I would really like to see if just the apps of Velocity did it's job and worked.

Plus I still think there is time for it to come back before summer sets in and possibly go dormant. I doubt it goes dormant in the summer since that area is on the shadier side and stays somewhat damp. Don't think it went dormant last summer.


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## MD Mallard (Apr 15, 2019)

I just put down my first dose of Velocity today at three ounces/acre. I'm seeing signs I need to do my late spring fert app. Does anyone know of any issues with fertilizing right after Velocity application? Also, how soon can I mow the lawn after application. Thanks!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

MD Mallard said:


> Does anyone know of any issues with fertilizing right after Velocity application?


I've done it and had no problem


> Also, how soon can I mow the lawn after application.


Check the label. I don't have in front of me but don't think it says anything about mowing. Says no water for 12 hours, I think. I would follow that same timing on the mow. Personally, I try to time the apps between mows.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Here is a wide shot from today…..looks to be filling in. Since triv doesn't thrive in the heat I doubt it came back. 


Here is a pic from a month ago……


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@NJ-lawn

One of the areas I treated last year is still looking good. I did 3 apps: 4, 3.5, and 3 oz per acre on 5/25, 6/20, and 7/25, with dethatching via the Groundskeeper rake in between the 2nd and 3rd app, and then before overseeding in Sept.


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## Belgianbillie (Apr 3, 2018)

where are you finding velocity?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Belgianbillie said:


> where are you finding velocity?


It hasn't been available for several years, I believe. 
However, there is at least one herbicide with the same AI that may still be available (not labeled for turf and is a much higher concentration AI, so you'd have to know how to do serial dilution), called Tradewind Aquatic Herbicide: https://www.forestrydistributing.com/tradewind-aquatic-herbicide-valent

Ironically, you yourself posted about this a while back, but it didn't seem to be available at that time: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9113

If you have a Chemistry background or know someone who does who can help you, off-label conversion to the proper concentration might be feasible. But don't tell us on here that it actually might have been Tradewind, because that wouldn't a legal thing to use in that way. I personally wouldn't do it for that reason. Hopefully you'll find some Velocity somewhow rather than going the other route.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Not sure if this study had been posted yet:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/188080969.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj1iLyxl5HxAhW8FVkFHdPeCmcQFjACegQIBBAC&usg=AOvVaw3EiVBRN-bWBkFK6z406Zvg

Sulfosulfuron is in here. They found what I observed: some Triv varieties seem tolerant of it. But it works well against others.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Yeah well I guess I won't find out for sure til next spring. The good thing is it's in a small section of my property, separated by my driveway. Good place to test and not worry about taking over my main lawn. Time will tell the story


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I had another disappointing season with velocity vs triv. This season, I did two apps xonerate at high rate and then two apps velocity at 3 oz/A on 28 day interval. Triv was damaged but came back fine after heavy rain, 16 days after second app. I've been using velocity on triv for a few years and I can't recommend it.

Pics below show brown, dead triv but also new growth. Brown spot is dead triv. Yellow arrow is new triv growth. Blue arrow is tall fescue unaffected by the velocity. Red arrow is a beautiful triv seed head to remind me I'll never eradicate it.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

That's disappointing …….I'm not seeing triv over here but not sure it's 100% gone. I guess time will tell……


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

NJ-lawn said:


> That's disappointing …….I'm not seeing triv over here but not sure it's 100% gone. I guess time will tell……


I have had my share of years without success, too. But one success...at least for a while: no Triv has come come back yet in the area referenced below: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=401539#p401539

I have since incorporated light to moderate manual dethatching in a lot of my Poa Triv selective herbicide treatment areas. The goal is to expose as much leaf tissue as possible so it gets hit directly with the herbicide. If you don't get it all wet, and rely on translocation, it seems to go into chemical-induced dormancy, and is more likely to come back more readily from stems/roots/stolons once dormancy breaks.

The other thing I've been experimenting with is mowing relatively low (for me) from the beginning of the Spring until treatments are done. Low meaning about 2.5-3 inches in this case; I'd normally be at 3.25+ in late Spring and early Summer. The goal here is again to expose the living material to the herbicide.

So far, I'm having much better luck with Sulfosulfuron. The downside is that Fescue/Rye gets damaged more readily by it. But if it works, I'll take it. It seemed to work well on coarse bladed Poa Triv varieties last year, but not the fine ones. It didn't really touch those if they were in shade in an area tending toward dampness. I finally decided to renovate that problem area. For other areas, I'm hoping that following up with Velocity, in combination with the dethatching and lower mowing, will enhance control by getting the fine varieties. Same idea as using multiple broadleaf herbicides to combat resistance. Ethofumesate is restricted use here, so I can't try that. Last year, Velocity did not kill the fine varieties that were hidden under tall desirable grass. But by exposing them this year, we will see what it can do, especially since the Sulfosulfuron has already damaged some of them. There is a Sulfosulfuron product coming to the market that currently has labeling for use on cool season grass, just like the name brand did before they changed the label.

I really do think lower mowing (certainly under 3.25 in, if not 2 in) should be part of one of these selective herbicide programs, as it seems to improve control. Same with dethatching, but it's a balance between control and withstanding Summer stress. The idea is not to overdo it and have a totally brown lawn.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@tgreen and @NJ-lawn

I did an app of Velocity this year, and for the first time, I tried some AMS and a bit of NIS per an article I read. I also used distilled water this time (since I have it for free from a dehumidifer).

I didn't notice any adverse effects from the additives. If anything, the AMS (and iron, if you have it, too) is supposed to help reduce damage to KBG and other good grass.

My application details from my journal: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=3351&p=408717&hilit=Velocity#p408717

The lawn has pretty much recovered now from the usual slight browning, and the growth regulation ceased about a week to 10 days ago, too.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Green said:


> @tgreen and @NJ-lawn
> 
> I did an app of Velocity this year, and for the first time, I tried some AMS and a bit of NIS per an article I read. I also used distilled water this time (since I have it for free from a dehumidifer).
> 
> ...


Interesting. Thanks for the info. I couldn't tell though, did you get a good kill on the triv? I got some kill but like everything else I've tried, it re-grew in most areas.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

tgreen said:


> Interesting. Thanks for the info. I couldn't tell though, did you get a good kill on the triv? I got some kill but like everything else I've tried, it re-grew in most areas.


No idea. It's not visible in full sun this time of year anyway. I don't know if one app is enough to take out Triv that hasn't yet spread much, but we'll see. I also didn't even apply it in the area immediately around my tree...where there was definitely Triv. Still not sure what I'm going to do about that. But at least the addition of that bit of surfactant didn't hurt anything any more than usual. I would encourage other people to experiment with small amounts of surfactant, as well. Apparently when used in rice crop, the surfactant is listed as being mandatory for this AI. Not sure why they say not to use it on turf, and neither were the authors of the study I read. I didn't want to add too much though, being the first time.

In other news, it still hasn't come back yet in an area treated last year 3x per the label (no additives), with dethatching/raking between apps. I'm contemplating overseeding that area this year if necessary, but am concerned that doing so might add Triv, so I'm not sure. And that would confound the results going forward.

In the adjacent area that was treated with Sulfosulfuron this year (7+ weeks ago), I haven't gotten any Nutsedge yet, so that definitely prevents it. Adjacent areas have some Nutsedge, so this establishes cause/effect. That said, I probably should spray it with Sulfentrazone in the next week or two to keep it that way...not to mention Quinclorac first, since I'm getting some Crabgrass. As far as Triv goes, the Sulfosulfuron got all or most of the broad-bladed varieties, but there are still likely resistant fine-leaved varieties remaining that weren't taken care of.

I was hoping the Velocity app in the front this year would take care of all varieities. my strategy was glyphosate on the worst, patchy areas, then 2 apps of Sulfosulfuron on some other areas that had bad intermixed infestation, and finally the single app of Velocity on 2/3 of the entire area (most of which got nothing before it but likely had some Triv intermingled). I do think any grass is easier to control when it has just germinated a few months before, or hasn't spread much yet. Resistance management. So, we'll see.

Btw, Sulfosulfuron is pretty harsh on Fescue...it kills some of it, especially in full sun, and really hurts it if it doesn't kill. But Velocity is just about as tough on Fine Fescue. Neither is really reliable if you have a lot of Fine Fescue, but at the same time I wouldn't say either herbicide kills it outright at the low rates used.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

NJ-lawn said:


> Here is a wide shot from today…..looks to be filling in. Since triv doesn't thrive in the heat I doubt it came back.
> 
> 
> Here is a pic from a month ago……


Can you post a current picture? Is it back?


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Here you go……




I have some weed pressure, not 100% sure if triv is back or not. But it has improved and looks like some KBG filled in. Maybe I should start hitting it again


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think I still see it. It looks less and i would hit it again now in the fall and next spring. Don't let it recover.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Yeah I think there's still some there, it's prob gonna be a long road


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> I think I still see it. It looks less and i would hit it again now in the fall and next spring. Don't let it recover.


It is not easy...that's for sure. I would not give up, either.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

NJ-lawn said:


> Yeah I think there's still some there, it's prob gonna be a long road


Check out this article...it explains why some comes back. And we know that when a little comes back, it can then spread again if we allow it.

https://www.genesisturfgrass.com/news-event/view/rough-bluegrass-can-be-your-worst-lawn-nightmare/

@tgreen


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

NJ-lawn said:


> Yeah I think there's still some there, it's prob gonna be a long road


Check out this article...it explains why some comes back. And we know that when a little comes back, it can then spread again if we allow it.

https://www.genesisturfgrass.com/news-event/view/rough-bluegrass-can-be-your-worst-lawn-nightmare/

@tgreen

Btw, I still don't see any in that area I treated over a year ago. It's the only area where it seems to be fully eradicated for now.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

So this spring I decide to really step in and do some fight with triv. 
Back yard and right side front we remove around 1700sqf with sod cuter 12-16" wider than triv was visible and lay new sod (170pc of 5x2 was ordered) i went over lawn yesterday and found 2 small patches of triv right on edge of new sod. On left front side i did 3apps of roundup 2-3k sqf and overseeded beginning of summer don't see any triv yet. Can't be happier with this result at this time but spring will tell . Here picture of summer renovation.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Green said:


> NJ-lawn said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I think there's still some there, it's prob gonna be a long road
> ...


I agree and am witness to pretty much everything in the article. Now, I'm basically just hand pulling it constantly. Not so much digging it up as just lifting it off the ground. I did roundup 2 larger areas this year and reseeded. Just a constant battle. I've basically given up on the selective's.

Here's a pic of one of the two areas that I gly'd in late august.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@tgreen, yes. I just overseeded an area where I had used selective herbicides earlier in the year. There is Triv again.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@tgreen:

I pulled a Triv seedling out of my reno area today. It was taller than the KBG, and slightly tillered. The ligule and string test confirmed it was Triv, as well as the typical Bluegrass tip. I bet it was in the soil, and not the KBG seed bag, though it could've been from either. Reason: that area previously had Triv that went to seed (in 2020, I believe).


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Yes, I'm 100% convinced it comes from seed in the soil bank following roundup. Why? I've pulled it from in between the bricks on my patio and also in areas around mature trees that I gly at least twice per season. I'm really familiar with annua in my yard and this stuff is not annua based on the look and time of year it germinates.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


> Yes, I'm 100% convinced it comes from seed in the soil bank following roundup. Why? I've pulled it from in between the bricks on my patio and also in areas around mature trees that I gly at least twice per season. I'm really familiar with annua in my yard and this stuff is not annua based on the look and time of year it germinates.


Most poa triv i had on
Property sent seedhead horizontally u cant really see it in grass


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