# TifTuf lateral growth - 1 month



## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Sod was laid one month ago today and I'm somewhat disappointed by its rate of fill in. It's got runners out 8-10 inches so far. Is this the normal rate of spreading? Plugs shown are at different stages of growth. I'm starting to worry that I won't get everything filled in my the end of the season. I've put down 3.8 lb of Nitrogen to date...

Initial spacing was about 14 inches both vertical and horizontal for each piece. 


3 week plugs. 


2 week plugs.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Never seen sod laid that way. Your gonna have some serious bumps there.

IMO, you will lucky to get all of the plugs filled in by end of season.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

I'd imagine that most of it's energy is going into growing roots for the first few weeks at least.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

LawnRat said:


> I'd imagine that most of it's energy is going into growing roots for the first few weeks at least.


Yeah I'm just a rookie at this warm season stuff but I think people usually have way too high of expectations for lateral growth the first few weeks. It's going to take a few months or even a growing season or two depending on your spacing before it gets all filled in.

And yeah your going to have to do some major leveling with that sod.


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## JDM83 (Sep 19, 2018)

i seriously doubt it will fill in by end of season no matter how much Nitrogen you push. i concur with wfrobinette i have never seen sod laid like that, you will have raised squares exactly like you have now until you take on a leveling project. sod is typically laid like a blanket and even then will need to be leveled in second year of establishment to make it smooth. only thing i know to do at this point is wait and see what happens. continue with your fert program and hope for the best


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

JDM83 said:


> i seriously doubt it will fill in by end of season no matter how much Nitrogen you push. i concur with wfrobinette i have never seen sod laid like that, you will have raised squares exactly like you have now until you take on a leveling project. sod is typically laid like a blanket and even then will need to be leveled in second year of establishment to make it smooth. only thing i know to do at this point is wait and see what happens. continue with your fert program and hope for the best





Wfrobinette said:


> Never seen sod laid that way. Your gonna have some serious bumps there.
> 
> IMO, you will lucky to get all of the plugs filled in by end of season.


I have about 4 yards of masonry sand ready for leveling the gaps as soon as it fills in some more. Won't be a problem and it's easy with my R&R levelawn. I'm considering buying a couple more pallets of sod. This is one big experiment at this point.


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## HungrySoutherner (May 29, 2018)

This is some mad science right here. Keep updating the thread just so we can watch it grow.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

What is the current HOC? How often do you water, and how much are you putting down? Have you done any soil sampling? I'd think the grass would be a little greener with the amount of nitrogen you've been pushing. I also put TifTuf down about a month ago, however I did not leave gaps to fill in, but the runners growing over the side walk and across the water meter cover in my lawn that I trim every few days were growing aggressively enough to have been much longer than 10" I am keeping mine cut at 1" until after I level. Once I level (later in the month) I will go down to 1/2 inch HOC.

So I'd start by doing a soil test to see what you are working with. Maybe your PH is off and limiting the intake of N that lawn can handle.


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> JDM83 said:
> 
> 
> > i seriously doubt it will fill in by end of season no matter how much Nitrogen you push. i concur with wfrobinette i have never seen sod laid like that, you will have raised squares exactly like you have now until you take on a leveling project. sod is typically laid like a blanket and even then will need to be leveled in second year of establishment to make it smooth. only thing i know to do at this point is wait and see what happens. continue with your fert program and hope for the best
> ...


I would see if filling in gaps between the sod pieces with sand would expedite the fill in process. I've found that sand will give those runners something to tack onto easily and fill in quickly.

You could just use a test area or a few areas between sod pices since you already have 4 yards of sand. It's not going to hurt anything and you might find it works. Make sure you keep it watered well.


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## JDM83 (Sep 19, 2018)

i think kicker is right here, filling gaps with sand will help fill in faster imo. it always amazes me how fast bermuda pushes through sand after leveling. maybe try a test area in between a few pieces and see what happens?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

I agree with filling in the gaps with sand or something, otherwise it is going to be all higgildy piggildy.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

The sod will definitely fill within the growing season. I bet the plugs will be close to 100% if you keep the fert and water to it. It's was establishing roots for the first month. It'll take off before you know it.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Sanding the gaps is sound advice.

I'd start pounding those gaps with ammonium sulfate or nitrate. I personally like 21-0-0 for grow ins (kinda what you're doing). 1#N/m a week for 3 weeks. I don't think that a full yard by seasons end is out of the realm of possibilities. Good luck.


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

It's gonna take a while for those gaps to fill and for those plugs to take. They are already stressed from being transplanted on top of that you scalping it when mowing. The grass is spending energy rooting itself but also to repair itself from being scalped. Its a slow process regardless.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Topcat said:


> What is the current HOC? How often do you water, and how much are you putting down? Have you done any soil sampling? I'd think the grass would be a little greener with the amount of nitrogen you've been pushing. I also put TifTuf down about a month ago, however I did not leave gaps to fill in, but the runners growing over the side walk and across the water meter cover in my lawn that I trim every few days were growing aggressively enough to have been much longer than 10" I am keeping mine cut at 1" until after I level. Once I level (later in the month) I will go down to 1/2 inch HOC.
> 
> So I'd start by doing a soil test to see what you are working with. Maybe your PH is off and limiting the intake of N that lawn can handle.


Topcat, the grass is yellowed due to recent herbicide app. Soil test showed low P so I applied 500 lbs 5-4-0 earlier this year. If I had the money I would have sodded the barren 10k but it wasn't an option. pH was corrected with Solu-Cal over the winter. HOC is about 1.75 to 2 inches with rotary.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Sanding the gaps is sound advice.
> 
> I'd start pounding those gaps with ammonium sulfate or nitrate. I personally like 21-0-0 for grow ins (kinda what you're doing). 1#N/m a week for 3 weeks. I don't think that a full yard by seasons end is out of the realm of possibilities. Good luck.





Cory said:


> It's gonna take a while for those gaps to fill and for those plugs to take. They are already stressed from being transplanted on top of that you scalping it when mowing. The grass is spending energy rooting itself but also to repair itself from being scalped. Its a slow process regardless.





J_nick said:


> The sod will definitely fill within the growing season. I bet the plugs will be close to 100% if you keep the fert and water to it. It's was establishing roots for the first month. It'll take off before you know it.





ktgrok said:


> I agree with filling in the gaps with sand or something, otherwise it is going to be all higgildy piggildy.





JDM83 said:


> i think kicker is right here, filling gaps with sand will help fill in faster imo. it always amazes me how fast bermuda pushes through sand after leveling. maybe try a test area in between a few pieces and see what happens?





Kicker said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > JDM83 said:
> ...





HungrySoutherner said:


> This is some mad science right here. Keep updating the thread just so we can watch it grow.


Thank you all for the input. I will sand the gaps here shortly and continue with this program. I'm also able to get two more pallets of Tiftuf for $475 so that's a possibility. After 800 plugs I'm not sure it's any more econonmical than buying sod, checkerboard placing, and filling with sand for $35/yard. I'll have to get some more 46-0-0 too. At least the Crab is not winning this year!


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## T0R0 (Mar 4, 2019)

I know it's too late now but why didn't you use that pallet of sod to make sprigs and cover the whole yard? Maybe you can sprig the remaining yard if you purchase more sod.

If I had to re-establish a hybrid bermuda in a large area sprigging would be my choice if sod cost was too high.


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## TC2 (Sep 15, 2017)

I seriously doubt it's too late to pull up the sod and try sprigging. It will probably roll right back up with a bit of effort, otherwise, a flat spade slid underneath will help.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

T0R0 said:


> I know it's too late now but why didn't you use that pallet of sod to make sprigs and cover the whole yard? Maybe you can sprig the remaining yard if you purchase more sod.
> 
> If I had to re-establish a hybrid bermuda in a large area sprigging would be my choice if sod cost was too high.


@TC2

How have/would you guys sprig a pallet of sod? I haven't found another member to do so yet but I'm definitely open to that method.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> T0R0 said:
> 
> 
> > I know it's too late now but why didn't you use that pallet of sod to make sprigs and cover the whole yard? Maybe you can sprig the remaining yard if you purchase more sod.
> ...


I think @Movingshrub had found something around feeding the pieces of sod into a wood chipper. Not sure if he actually went through with it.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Check out my thread from last year. I was fully green by August, you will get there just gotta keep feeding it nitrogen and water.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=3571


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## T0R0 (Mar 4, 2019)

cglarsen said:


> T0R0 said:
> 
> 
> > I know it's too late now but why didn't you use that pallet of sod to make sprigs and cover the whole yard? Maybe you can sprig the remaining yard if you purchase more sod.
> ...


There is another member on here that has sprigged a few times but I cannot remember his name. Maybe try searching for bermuda sprigging on the forum.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

T0R0 said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > T0R0 said:
> ...


@Movingshrub


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

I don't think anyone has ever thrown sod into a woodchipper and made sprigs but it sure does get suggested a lot!


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## TC2 (Sep 15, 2017)

Not sure on the best way to make sprigs, but something like a verticutter run over a loose piece of turf might be enough to break it up sufficiently. Any way of removing the connecting soil should work ie power water spray, soaking in water, sticking it in a soil tumbler to get knocked around, letting the soil dry and then bashing it on the ground!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I keep considering using a wood chipper from a nerdy angle. I talked to a sod farmer with Crossroads Sod farm in Belvidere, TN. I had mentioned my wood chipper idea, and his remark was huh, hadn't thought of that. I don't see why it wouldn't work.

That particular farm sells Tiftuf pallets for $200. The wood chipper rental for me would be about $100. On the other hand, I could just buy a pick-up truck worth of sprigs for a few hundred dollars, so the economics doesn't really support the wood chipper over just buying fresh sprigs directly, especially once you consider the risk of damage to the wood chipper, and the risk of it being way more time consuming. However, I'm still incredibly fascinated by the concept.

This video is the idea that makes me think it's do-able. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukoi-HasOs

Also, if someone wanted to see actual crimped in sprigs, here is a good video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmPLJNVleK4

Just as a reminder - stolons thrown out over the area and top dressed or not = broadcast stolonizing
stolons thrown out them crimped/pushed into the soil = sprigging


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

2 yards sand but it's looking good. Just grow baby!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@cglarsen document with regular photos.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> 2 yards sand but it's looking good. Just grow baby!


What a cool project! Im pulling for ya on this one...


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> @cglarsen document with regular photos.


+1, day by day looking at it you won't be able to see much happen. Being able to see what it looked like even 3 days before will help you realize how quick it's growing.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Give them a trim every few days using your weedwacker it will promote lateral growth.


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

I installed tiftuf in 2017. I had an area that I didn't sod for some reason and I kept track of how it filled in. Scale is not the best here but maybe you can figure it out.

Basically, it grows slow until it doesn't.


1 month post sod


2 months


By 4 months I was taking small plugs from that area.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@ctrav Thanks a lot!

@Movingshrub @J_nick You bet I will be snapping pictures.

@erdons They actually need a good scalp - will that slow the lateral growth?

@Bunnysarefat Thanks for the pics - makes me feel better - I also have more Tiftuf on the way - length of the growing season and cashflow will be my limitations this year.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> @ctrav Thanks a lot!
> 
> @Movingshrub @J_nick You bet I will be snapping pictures.
> 
> ...


Idk if you should scalp, but mowing Bermuda low promotes lateral growth. When I laid my plugs I was taking my weed wacker to them 2 times per week and that seemed to help the lateral growth.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm sorry but aggressive stressing or using a dull instrument to cut....can't understand how that helps. Rather, it might have to redirect it's energy ?


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

jayhawk said:


> I'm sorry but aggressive stressing or using a dull instrument to cut....can't understand how that helps. Rather, it might have to redirect it's energy ?


Mowing low will promote lateral growth. It's been discussed ad nauseum on here. Sharp or dull only changes how nice the tips of your grass look.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Sanding the gaps is sound advice.
> 
> I'd start pounding those gaps with ammonium sulfate or nitrate. I personally like 21-0-0 for grow ins (kinda what you're doing). 1#N/m a week for 3 weeks. I don't think that a full yard by seasons end is out of the realm of possibilities. Good luck.


@viva_oldtrafford I'm still learning this stuff. When you say 1# N/M a week for 3 weeks. You mean 1 pound of Nitrogren but what does the /M standing for?

Thanks


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

ENC_Lawn said:


> @viva_oldtrafford I'm still learning this stuff. When you say 1# N/M a week for 3 weeks. You mean 1 pound of Nitrogren but what does the /M standing for?
> 
> Thanks


M is 1000 sq feet. Used so as not to be confused with potassium k.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

LawnRat said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > @viva_oldtrafford I'm still learning this stuff. When you say 1# N/M a week for 3 weeks. You mean 1 pound of Nitrogren but what does the /M standing for?
> ...


Thanks


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## slomo (Jun 22, 2017)

For my fill in methods, I use 46-0-0 nitrate WEEKLY at 2lbs per 1k/sf. Lots of water as is DAILY. HOC, raise mower all the way up. Keep dumping the fert and water on it. Don't even think about Milorganite if you want the grass to fill in quickly. Another great fert is Miracle Grown Lawn Food. That is instant uptake to the foliage and roots. Keep pushing the fert and water.

slomo


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## slomo (Jun 22, 2017)

Looks like you are cutting too low. I wouldn't touch the mower until it was a foot high. Let it grow and spread. And at that initial stage, I would of tilled in some gypsum and Humic DG if you had clay. Or tilled in some loamy sand in there. Great thread!!

slomo


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

17 days later I'm getting some action finally. Ferting, watering, and reel mowing 1.5" every other day.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

@cglarsen how is the fill in going?


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Still learnin said:


> @cglarsen how is the fill in going?


I'd say it grabbed another gear in July, especially the plugs. They take a month do do much.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Thats filling in nicely.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@cglarsen

Any 2020 updates?


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> @cglarsen
> 
> Any 2020 updates?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Whoa! That's awesome.


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## WhiteSubi (Sep 6, 2019)

Wow, that is awesome! Great job and thanks for the inspiration!


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## southernbuckeye (Sep 29, 2019)

Holy cow! Super impressive! Can you update on your care regime that you used to acccomplish that?


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## arm0211 (Apr 13, 2020)

Unbelievable...That is very impressive, well done.


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## jbow03 (Sep 19, 2019)

That's amazing! I'm also interested in your care techniques.

I have personally been plugging and pushing growth for some bare spots in my yard simply because I've had such a bad experience getting "outside" sod pieces to match my existing.

It's a much slower process, but your results give me hope!


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Wow, thanks for all the compliments - was not expecting that - but I will say this has been a PROCESS not an event (as my therapist wife likes to say).

What I did was lay 3 pallets of sod total (one checkerboarded in middle and then a 4 ft strip along the shoulder slope to limit sediment loss. From there I plugged like crazy, 1000s of plugs over the summer. I also hit it heavy with local Milo/biosolids as well as Urea.

I realized that Tiftuf isn't really a nitrogen hog and doesn't need as much water as I was pushing....I dealt with fungus issues last year as a result - weather didn't help either. By the end of the year I had pretty decent fill in but still some bare areas. I overseeded those with PRG. Meanwhile I got a reel mower and that's been a game changer. Also bought a power rake...and beat the snot out of the lawn during spring green up, I mean kicking up a lot of dirt. I used my drag mat to smooth everything out. That made it so much smoother and it kickstarted more growth.

This year I am going easy on fertilizer, like 1/2 - 1 lb NPK per month, and cutting low. Started at 1/2 inch, moved up to 3/4 inch not. There's a lot of crap common bermuda in various areas that doesn't do well low. Just started PGR and with a lawn of any size, especially with common, it's a must in my opinion.

I highly recommend using your own bermuda stand to vegatatively propagate other areas. Only way to get things to match and laying sod is hard work and expensive at large-scale. The most important factor when plugging is to start as early in the year as possible. Plugs sit there for 3-4 weeks before they can spread. You really have to maximize time in the ground during good growing season.

All that said - I WOULD NEVER RECOMMEND ANYONE DO IT LIKE THIS UNLESS YOU ARE SINGLE and HAVE OCPD.

So, for the backyard rennovation that's currently underway I will be laying sprigs that I pull from 1,200 sf of Tahoma sod (Tiftuf was not available in my area this spring) with the power rake and doing a couple 5,000 sf plots this summer. Probably finish the last 5,000 near the house next growing season.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Nice, cut your N to 1/4 lb per 1k per month.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > @cglarsen
> ...


Awesome results!

Great job. Your hard work paid off!!!


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## ShaneQi (Oct 9, 2019)

Very inspiring!

How did you prep the yard prior to front yard sodding? 
I'm thinking about replacing my common Bermuda with Tiftuf, but the scariest part is prepping the yard.
Do I only need to kill off the current grass, or use sod cutter? Either option is scary to me.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@cglarsen awesome results. I sprigged some tifftuff yesterday


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

You plugged your lawn. Large "pieces", separated by some distance is called plugging. Plugging usually is "safer" than sprigging in that the individual pieces are more likely to live. But the smaller the pieces, the easier for the lateral growth to fill in. When you sprig, which essentially means plugging with the smallest piece of viable grass, the grass can cover quicker but the lawn requires more attention, especially in the first two weeks. Thus if you wanted to cover 100 square feet, you could do it with a single 1 square foot plug, but you'd do better by breaking this piece into multiple smaller pieces and spreading these pieces to a uniform horizontal density. I hope I said that right!

I think you'll have trouble leveling this lawn but it isn't impossible! Good luck.

When sprigging is done properly, people often get a 90% survival rate of the sprigs. My lawn covered in 8 weeks. Another advantage of sprigs is that you aren't transporting soil... just grass. Makes a big difference to your back. You will spend more time after the sprigging to insure survival.

Regardless of the method used, this year (at least around here) has been a bad year for warm season grasses to grow in.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

ShaneQi said:


> Very inspiring!
> 
> How did you prep the yard prior to front yard sodding?
> I'm thinking about replacing my common Bermuda with Tiftuf, but the scariest part is prepping the yard.
> Do I only need to kill off the current grass, or use sod cutter? Either option is scary to me.


I sprayed everything out a few times when the existing Bermuda was dormant. Then at spring green up I aerated the yard so it looked like Swiss cheese, put down ferilizer, lime and smoothed out with a drag. Then o laid sod a couple weeks later in areas that had virtually no Bermuda coverage. Only prep at that point was to lightly scarify the bare clay soil. You are right though, the preparation work is the most critical.


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## balistek (Jun 5, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> Wow, thanks for all the compliments - was not expecting that - but I will say this has been a PROCESS not an event (as my therapist wife likes to say).
> 
> What I did was lay 3 pallets of sod total (one checkerboarded in middle and then a 4 ft strip along the shoulder slope to limit sediment loss. From there I plugged like crazy, 1000s of plugs over the summer. I also hit it heavy with local Milo/biosolids as well as Urea.
> 
> ...


Someone distinguished between OCD vs OCPD. Hmmmm. You say your wife is a therapist. Do you yourself have any Mental Health background? OCPD doesnt get much publicity. Sorry out of of that whole paragraph-- that stood out to me.HAHA. I have to remember this is a lawn forum and not a psychiatry forum.

Side note-- I am astounded by your progress. I'll admit, I looked at your initial progress with the checkerboards with a squinted eye. But nevertheless, it looks amazing. I am thinking about tiftuff for when we build. You think its possible to get this cultivar dark green? I like all its attributes, but I dont want lime green


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@balistek Yes that was distinction was intentional. Wife is a psychologist and I have to agree with her assessment...but there are advantages as I have proven!

Thanks for the compliment - I think a lot of people including my neighbor thought it was a dumb idea to space them out - but it can work as others have done it before me too. Pros and cons to anything in life of course.

In year two of Tiftuf I like it even more. You can get a really nice green color - it's not as lime green as some say. Iron and proper fertilization are required to maximize its beauty. Here's a closeup of Tiftuf color and another of Tahoma for reference. 
TT

Tah


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## balistek (Jun 5, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> @balistek Yes that was distinction was intentional. Wife is a psychologist and I have to agree with her assessment...but there are advantages as I have proven!
> 
> Thanks for the compliment - I think a lot of people including my neighbor thought it was a dumb idea to space them out - but it can work as others have done it before me too. Pros and cons to anything in life of course.
> 
> ...


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## balistek (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks for the pics. I think I will going this route. Im a Psych Nurse Practitioner. I have had quite a few discussions with LPCs at my clinic regarding differences in OCD vs OCPD-- they always give them a Mixed Obsessional Thoughts and Action diagnosis initially. I wrote a paper during Grad school regarding this. It just sticks in my memory bank I guess.

Again, thanks for the pictures and job well done. 
Ron


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

ThomasPI said:


> Nice, cut your N to 1/4 lb per 1k per month.


Why are you suggesting this?


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

Wfrobinette said:


> ThomasPI said:
> 
> 
> > Nice, cut your N to 1/4 lb per 1k per month.
> ...


lawns that are cut reel low and "spoon fed" with a water soluable/sprayed fertilizer require much less 'pounds on the ground' monthly than traditional rotary mowed lawns.

Also, too much N can cause lawns to get thatchy, or so I've read here.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Any more close ups of the Tahoma? What are your thoughts between the 2?


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## agaetisbyrjun (Jun 7, 2020)

cglarsen said:


> Wow, thanks for all the compliments - was not expecting that - but I will say this has been a PROCESS not an event (as my therapist wife likes to say).
> 
> What I did was lay 3 pallets of sod total (one checkerboarded in middle and then a 4 ft strip along the shoulder slope to limit sediment loss. From there I plugged like crazy, 1000s of plugs over the summer. I also hit it heavy with local Milo/biosolids as well as Urea.
> 
> ...


Thanks for this post. Specifically the info about tiftuf not being as big of a nitrogen hog as you thought. My sod was laid in October and it's patchy still, so this is giving me hope to stick with it/ slightly recalibrate my plan.

Keep us updated!


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

MeanDean said:


> Any more close ups of the Tahoma? What are your thoughts between the 2?


You don't want to see the Tahoma right now. It's 3+ inches to prepare for sprigging. I have a feeling that Tahoma will look slightly better reel mowed low. Both are excellent with the the Tahoma more of an emerald green color than Tiftuf which splits Shamrock and Emerald colors I'd say.


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## Tinsmith292 (Oct 2, 2018)

I have tiftuf and I would agree somewhere between shamrock and emerald is spot on


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