# Questions on new (2020) Carbon-X formula



## Green

Regarding the new formula:

1.) Is the same homogeneous Urea/AMS prill still being used as in the previous version, with the difference just being that it's now stabilized whereas it wasn't before?

1a.) If so, interesting. I didn't realize AMS could be stabilized. Or is the stabilization only effective for the urea fraction and not the AMS fraction?

1b.) If not the same Urea/AMS prill as used previously, how does the new Urea/AMS product being used, differ from the previous one? E.g. is it still homogeneous? Still the same total and urea/AMS component N analysis and fractions as before? E.g. 40-0-0?

2.) I noticed the new soy protein peptides are listed on the website as being Nitrogen sources. But they aren't itemized on the bag label's analysis as far as I can tell. How much N are these peptides providing, and is it in addition to the 24% listed on the Carbon-X label? Or is it included in the 24% claimed?

3.) Any difference other than the labels, between the "pro" and DIY formulas?

Thanks!


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## dman

At 60 bucks a bag I would just hope it works. There is alot of info from the YouTube crowd peddling it but in the end you just have to try it for yourself to see if it works for you.


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## Ware

@thegrassfactor these questions are probably best directed straight to you.


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## Jfarm_13

@dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion


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## Banzai51

I'm slightly disappointed it dropped from 50lbs a bag to 45lbs a bag. The 50lbs bag gave me just over 2 apps per bag, now it is just under 2 apps/bag. It's not enough to really be outraged about, but I hope it doesn't drop further because that starts to adversely affect the value proposition.


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## Jfarm_13

@Banzai51 i agree. Especially for the 8-1-8. I'm cheap and a 45lb bag won't get you very far. It is throwing off my plan for the year application wise.


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## dman

Jfarm_13 said:


> @dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion


I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.


----------



## dman

Jfarm_13 said:


> @dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion


To add:

I look at more than just N. Sure if your soil is poor then more N is what it takes. I have improved my soil and do not require high amounts of N.


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## corneliani

I saw something about FedEx & UPS lowering the threshold that packages get charged extra for being Overweight. It now starts at 50#. That would tack on an add'l $24 in shipping fees, if I read it correctly.

I wonder if this is the reason for the bag weight adjustment. I noticed even the big Scotts bags are now 45# or so as well.


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## dman

corneliani said:


> I saw something about FedEx & UPS lowering the threshold that packages get charged extra for being Overweight. It now starts at 50#. That would tack on an add'l $24 in shipping fees, if I read it correctly.
> 
> I wonder if this is the reason for the bag weight adjustment. I noticed even the big Scotts bags are now 45# or so as well.


Yikes! $24 more for this stuff?


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## corneliani

dman said:


> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw something about FedEx & UPS lowering the threshold that packages get charged extra for being Overweight. It now starts at 50#. That would tack on an add'l $24 in shipping fees, if I read it correctly.
> 
> I wonder if this is the reason for the bag weight adjustment. I noticed even the big Scotts bags are now 45# or so as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes! $24 more for this stuff?
Click to expand...

I think you've misunderstood me. The shipping surcharge, which used to be levied on any package over 70#, is now going to be assessed starting at 50#. Any package, no matter what it is & from whom. These bags are now 45# and I was wondering if this change had anything to do w the new shipping restrictions.


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## g-man

You can get carbon earth products at local places too. There are new locations in the map, so check it out. I think it is around $25-30 a bag. I'm doing a road trip to Louisville or Dayton OH to pick up a year supply of 818 and xsoil.

https://carbonearth.co/carbon-earth-pro-fertilizer/


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## corneliani

g-man said:


> You can get carbon earth products at local places too. There are new locations in the map, so check it out. I think it is around $25-30 a bag. I'm doing a road trip to Louisville or Dayton OH to pick up a year supply of 818 and xsoil.
> 
> https://carbonearth.co/carbon-earth-pro-fertilizer/


i need to start visiting family in Nashville more often, it seems. There are a few distributors there and I can kill 2 birds w 1 stone! :thumbup:


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## Jfarm_13

Unfortunately I'm in the middle of the country and no distributors anywhere near me. Maybe there will be more distributors closer to me at some point.


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## dman

corneliani said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw something about FedEx & UPS lowering the threshold that packages get charged extra for being Overweight. It now starts at 50#. That would tack on an add'l $24 in shipping fees, if I read it correctly.
> 
> I wonder if this is the reason for the bag weight adjustment. I noticed even the big Scotts bags are now 45# or so as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes! $24 more for this stuff?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you've misunderstood me. The shipping surcharge, which used to be levied on any package over 70#, is now going to be assessed starting at 50#. Any package, no matter what it is & from whom. These bags are now 45# and I was wondering if this change had anything to do w the new shipping restrictions.
> Btw if you bypass the shipping and go direct cX can be had for less that half the diy price. It's this added distribution layer that makes the price what it is, and it's no different than buying through do my own or amazon or wherever. Just for reference, w 45# bag of Scott's at Home Depot is $45+. Add shipping into that and you're at $60+.
Click to expand...

This stuff is expensive anyway. I guess they had to drop the bag size to make it semi-affordable. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Easyluck

I picked up 3 bags of carbon X and 3 bags of XGRN from a Nashville distributor last fall. It was $40 a bag.


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## Jfarm_13

The price is pretty much the same with a smaller amount of product. Price per pound is nearly the same maybe a few cents per pound different. It's not any more expensive than the Scott's homeowner stuff at a big box store. Most of those are in smaller bags but price is similar


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## TN Hawkeye

dman said:


> Jfarm_13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.
Click to expand...

I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.


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## dman

TN Hawkeye said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jfarm_13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.
Click to expand...

I actually plan on trying it. As far as the product itself, I usually have to see it to believe. I just do not put alot of stock in what someone has to say if they are profiting from it. I have read some good reviews on it. I will take the word of those who use the product over those who peddle it any day.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

dman said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I actually plan on trying it. As far as the product itself, I usually have to see it to believe. I just do not put alot of stock in what someone has to say if they are profiting from it. I have read some good reviews on it. I will take the word of those who use the product over those who peddle it any day.
Click to expand...

Understandable. I used Carbon X last year and plan o try the 8-1-8 this year. I think these products are something that needs to be used for a few seasons to really see improvements.


----------



## dman

TN Hawkeye said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually plan on trying it. As far as the product itself, I usually have to see it to believe. I just do not put alot of stock in what someone has to say if they are profiting from it. I have read some good reviews on it. I will take the word of those who use the product over those who peddle it any day.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Understandable. I used Carbon X last year and plan o try the 8-1-8 this year. I think these products are something that needs to be used for a few seasons to really see improvements.
Click to expand...

Did you get good results with Carbon X?


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## Jfarm_13

I bought a bag of carbon x and 8-1-8 to try. And I agree that it's meant to be used for a bit to get full effect. I think everyone wants a miracle product that they can apply and can get instant results, but I feel like with turf it all has to be done over time. Same with any soil amendment. 1 application isn't going to turn "bad soil" into all top soil.


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## bmitch05

TN Hawkeye said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jfarm_13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @dman $60/bag isn't that bad for what you get. Look at everyone throwing down milorganite at $15-$20/bag. It would take 4 bags of milo to make the 24% N and there fertilizer has a lot of other things going for it than milo. Milorganite is just really popular now and the price is starting to reflect that. This is all just my opinion
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.
Click to expand...

Don't take this the wrong way, but whats the gripe with the YouTube content creators? Seems like these guys are in support of Matt and his products. Of course there is a big difference between the YouTube creators and what Matt has done with the Carbon Earth Company. Matt assumes all of the risk, he had to shell out for the manufacturing plant, source product, hire employees etc. The YouTube guys that are promoting the CE products are supporting a person and a company that they like, and in turn might make a very minimal commission off of those products given the high cost of freight. This is typical of a vendor/re-seller partnership. From what I have gathered the YouTube "salesmen" had to put in a lot of work behind the scenes in order to make the CE products available to homeowners in smaller quantities.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

bmitch05 said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do not have anything against the YouTube folks peddling their products I just think one should be skeptical. I have tried other products that work well so it all depends on what someone thinks is best. YouTube is full of folks peddling products.
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is a big difference between YouTube people peddling products and what Matt Martin is doing. Most youtubers are either slapping their sticker on something that another company already produces or are tailoring their videos around a product that they are getting kickbacks to sell. Matt is putting his name and his reputation on the Carbon Earth products. I'm sure he is glad to sell his products to the DIYers but that isn't why he is making these products. I know LCN and Pete are selling his stuff but I'm sure that was more to not have to handle the logistical side of selling individual bags more than using YouTube to sell his stuff. I think @thegrassfactor is putting a lot more on the line than pretty much everyone else selling stuff on YouTube (lawn care or otherwise). This isn't an attack on you @dman while I agree we should be skeptical about what we spend our money on I don't think Carbon Earth is in the same discussion with some other YouTube salesmen.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but whats the gripe with the YouTube content creators? Seems like these guys are in support of Matt and his products. Of course there is a big difference between the YouTube creators and what Matt has done with the Carbon Earth Company. Matt assumes all of the risk, he had to shell out for the manufacturing plant, source product, hire employees etc. The YouTube guys that are promoting the CE products are supporting a person and a company that they like, and in turn might make a very minimal commission off of those products given the high cost of freight. This is typical of a vendor/re-seller partnership. From what I have gathered the YouTube "salesmen" had to put in a lot of work behind the scenes in order to make the CE products available to homeowners in smaller quantities.
Click to expand...

You might be misinterpreting my comment to a comment. You actually made the same point that I was making about Matt assuming all of the risk. And about LCN and Pete handling the logistics of selling smaller quantities to DIYers. I think you looked at my comment as a knock against those guys instead of trying to show that Matt has a lot more invested in this than anyone else. I've watched too much YouTube to get upset about someone selling a product on their channel. This wasn't about that.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

dman said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I actually plan on trying it. As far as the product itself, I usually have to see it to believe. I just do not put alot of stock in what someone has to say if they are profiting from it. I have read some good reviews on it. I will take the word of those who use the product over those who peddle it any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Understandable. I used Carbon X last year and plan o try the 8-1-8 this year. I think these products are something that needs to be used for a few seasons to really see improvements.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you get good results with Carbon X?
Click to expand...

I got what you would expect from a 24-0-4 product for one season. The results were not drastically different than Scotts 28-0-5 I think I put down. But the Scotts is gone. There is none left in the soil to improve this year. The Carbon X had things to build towards this year. I don't think any of the Carbon Earth products are an apply one bag and have the perfect lawn kind of products. Improving soil with these products is going to take time.


----------



## dman

TN Hawkeye said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understandable. I used Carbon X last year and plan o try the 8-1-8 this year. I think these products are something that needs to be used for a few seasons to really see improvements.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you get good results with Carbon X?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I got what you would expect from a 24-0-4 product for one season. The results were not drastically different than Scotts 28-0-5 I think I put down. But the Scotts is gone. There is none left in the soil to improve this year. The Carbon X had things to build towards this year. I don't think any of the Carbon Earth products are an apply one bag and have the perfect lawn kind of products. Improving soil with these products is going to take time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. I see your point. Soil improvement would take some time but it would be worth it. I used humic acid and sea kelp last season and it is making improvement in my soil over time.


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## thegrassfactor

Green said:


> Regarding the new formula:
> 
> 1.) Is the same homogeneous Urea/AMS prill still being used as in the previous version, with the difference just being that it's now stabilized whereas it wasn't before?


No, we now use a new urea prill that is coated with DCD and NBPT.



Green said:


> 1a.) If so, interesting. I didn't realize AMS could be stabilized. Or is the stabilization only effective for the urea fraction and not the AMS fraction?


DCD is a nitrification inhibitor which would work on AMS, but we are not applying it to the AMS.

Truthfully, we're using it because it's part of a carrier we use to 1. reduce atmospheric hygroscopicity and 2. reduce clinging to our equipment. It's purely for material handling purposes. We learned the hard way last year using YaraVera AMIDAS. IT was a complete and total S* Show. I'm sure you saw.



Green said:


> 1b.) If not the same Urea/AMS prill as used previously, how does the new Urea/AMS product being used, differ from the previous one? E.g. is it still homogeneous? Still the same total and urea/AMS component N analysis and fractions as before? E.g. 40-0-0?


No, we reformulated to make it work with same amount of AMS and Urea.



Green said:


> 2.) I noticed the new soy protein peptides are listed on the website as being Nitrogen sources. But they aren't itemized on the bag label's analysis as far as I can tell. How much N are these peptides providing, and is it in addition to the 24% listed on the Carbon-X label? Or is it included in the 24% claimed?


Because the rate once in the prill is below the N amount that we can claim on the label.



Green said:


> 3.) Any difference other than the labels, between the "pro" and DIY formulas?


Slight difference, but none worth noting. And it kind of bridges into the rest of the conversation...

This is me speaking very candidly and honestly:

I did not want our products in the DIY market. I still struggle with it. I finally sucumbed to the idea by the business minds and pressure and presentation by the likes of Allyn Hayne and Pete Denny. Allyn is so emotionally invested in his audience, it's charming. His priority is to make sure the DIY market is not only accepted, but viewed with respect. And as such, the same products the pros use, he wants to offer his audience. He may even come across as preachy because he believes as much as he preaches. And we all know Pete is in a perpetual journey of perfect fescue. He'll try anything, and if he likes it, he'll support it. Pete and I go back long before YouTube. He's as much of a personal friend as anyone else I know.

Personally, I didn't want my brand, my baby, and my risk (as others stated) diluted by people who could potentially do silly stuff, like apply 30lbs of fertilizer on 400sqft (which happened). I didn't want to sit down with a distributor and be told "your product is a homeowner product, not a pro product" - regardless of bag contents (which happened). I didn't want to deal with the feedback of "over-hyped" "too expensive" "scam" "con job" from people who never used the product (which happened) because of my emotional investment in my business/dream. For those of you that know me personally, know I get way overly emotional about anything I do, including my company, my family, or even friends. I'm the kind of guy that will drink a pint (or 5th) of vodka and hug the night away with happy tears free flowing. I'm, simply put, extremely emotional. I can handle narrative, but so often the conversation becomes heated or steered towards personal feelings or aversion to packaging or disdain in the marketing efforts. That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.

I was a micro-hair from pulling our material from all online sales this year. I was humiliated by large distributors all fall and frankly I was tired of it. If we were going to rebrand, we were going to completely rebrand or completely shift our business model to custom manufacturing. We're more profitable manufactuing non-commoditized materials anyways. That being said, the preservation of the relationship I have with Allyn, with Pete, and with many of even you folks on this board, steered me towards coming up with another solution. That solution was to relabel the product with my name off of it (Carbon Earth) except for that one little corner that says "manufactured by." It may seem small, but to the ridiculousness of a brain, it meant a lot. It gives me a reason to sit back and watch the narrative because technically that's not my product. That's your product. That's Allyn's product. That's Pete's product.

So if you decide to use the new product, thank you. Seriously. And secondly, it's our attempt at rescrapping almost the entirety of the plant, shifting the ingredients, and replacing a biostimulant that is debateable to one that we had a full growing season to test in a variety of regions and soil conditions, and evolving our manufacturing process. Aggitation agglomeration is not as easy as we thought it was, but we're learning. And the 2020 version is the fruit of our study and labor.


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## TN Hawkeye

@thegrassfactor thank you for speaking so candidly.


----------



## dman

thegrassfactor said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the new formula:
> 
> 1.) Is the same homogeneous Urea/AMS prill still being used as in the previous version, with the difference just being that it's now stabilized whereas it wasn't before?
> 
> 
> 
> No, we now use a new urea prill that is coated with DCD and NBPT.
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1a.) If so, interesting. I didn't realize AMS could be stabilized. Or is the stabilization only effective for the urea fraction and not the AMS fraction?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DCD is a nitrification inhibitor which would work on AMS, but we are not applying it to the AMS.
> 
> Truthfully, we're using it because it's part of a carrier we use to 1. reduce atmospheric hygroscopicity and 2. reduce clinging to our equipment. It's purely for material handling purposes. We learned the hard way last year using YaraVera AMIDAS. IT was a complete and total S* Show. I'm sure you saw.
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1b.) If not the same Urea/AMS prill as used previously, how does the new Urea/AMS product being used, differ from the previous one? E.g. is it still homogeneous? Still the same total and urea/AMS component N analysis and fractions as before? E.g. 40-0-0?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, we reformulated to make it work with same amount of AMS and Urea.
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2.) I noticed the new soy protein peptides are listed on the website as being Nitrogen sources. But they aren't itemized on the bag label's analysis as far as I can tell. How much N are these peptides providing, and is it in addition to the 24% listed on the Carbon-X label? Or is it included in the 24% claimed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Because the rate once in the prill is below the N amount that we can claim on the label.
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 3.) Any difference other than the labels, between the "pro" and DIY formulas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Slight difference, but none worth noting. And it kind of bridges into the rest of the conversation...
> 
> This is me speaking very candidly and honestly:
> 
> I did not want our products in the DIY market. I still struggle with it. I finally sucumbed to the idea by the business minds and pressure and presentation by the likes of Allyn Hayne and Pete Denny. Allyn is so emotionally invested in his audience, it's charming. His priority is to make sure the DIY market is not only accepted, but viewed with respect. And as such, the same products the pros use, he wants to offer his audience. He may even come across as preachy because he believes as much as he preaches. And we all know Pete is in a perpetual journey of perfect fescue. He'll try anything, and if he likes it, he'll support it. Pete and I go back long before YouTube. He's as much of a personal friend as anyone else I know.
> 
> Personally, I didn't want my brand, my baby, and my risk (as others stated) diluted by people who could potentially do silly stuff, like apply 30lbs of fertilizer on 400sqft (which happened). I didn't want to sit down with a distributor and be told "your product is a homeowner product, not a pro product" - regardless of bag contents (which happened). I didn't want to deal with the feedback of "over-hyped" "too expensive" "scam" "con job" from people who never used the product (which happened) because of my emotional investment in my business/dream. For those of you that know me personally, know I get way overly emotional about anything I do, including my company, my family, or even friends. I'm the kind of guy that will drink a pint (or 5th) of vodka and hug the night away with happy tears free flowing. I'm, simply put, extremely emotional. I can handle narrative, but so often the conversation becomes heated or steered towards personal feelings or aversion to packaging or disdain in the marketing efforts. That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.
> 
> I was a micro-hair from pulling our material from all online sales this year. I was humiliated by large distributors all fall and frankly I was tired of it. If we were going to rebrand, we were going to completely rebrand or completely shift our business model to custom manufacturing. We're more profitable manufactuing non-commoditized materials anyways. That being said, the preservation of the relationship I have with Allyn, with Pete, and with many of even you folks on this board, steered me towards coming up with another solution. That solution was to relabel the product with my name off of it (Carbon Earth) except for that one little corner that says "manufactured by." It may seem small, but to the ridiculousness of a brain, it meant a lot. It gives me a reason to sit back and watch the narrative because technically that's not my product. That's your product. That's Allyn's product. That's Pete's product.
> 
> So if you decide to use the new product, thank you. Seriously. And secondly, it's our attempt at rescrapping almost the entirety of the plant, shifting the ingredients, and replacing a biostimulant that is debateable to one that we had a full growing season to test in a variety of regions and soil conditions, and evolving our manufacturing process. Aggitation agglomeration is not as easy as we thought it was, but we're learning. And the 2020 version is the fruit of our study and labor.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting your take on things. I enjoy your videos along with others on YouTube because I learn alot from them. As a DIY'er I believe it is important to separate the product from the person or company selling it. In my view if the product is good it will stand on it's own and is not a reflection of anyone selling or making it.

I see alot of criticism of people who make videos about certain products. Some products I have tried and liked. As a consumer I put the most stock in actual user reviews than anything else simply because most users are not motivated by profit. Of course I take into account the bad reviews may be a result of the reviewer not using the product correctly.


----------



## LawnCareNut

Good discussion. I usually stay out of these but, it's Sunday, early so...
First, I get great results with CX, XGN, etc. Just wanted to answer that part up front. Profit or no profit, my lawn shows it and I see great results in my groups too.

And yes, we went to 45 because UPS and FedEx charge $20 more if your package is over 50. Last year CX retailed for $64.99 now it is $59.99. We will also be bringing 24lb bags to market very soon.

for the rest, here's what I will add... please take this in the right spirit.

1) I like to think I have a lot on the line here too. I am proud of what I have built and how I have built it. Big dollar companies, small businesses and thousands of homeowners understand lawn care now and use my word tracks in their marketing, training and everything else. I'm sorry that folks just see me as "some YouTuber" with nothing to lose or risk. Pretty much every small and large business you come in contact with on a daily basis wishes they could "crack the code" of "social media" and "influencers" and the fact that I spent 10 years figuring it out should mean something no? 
2) Speaking of "those other youtubers" that pitch too much stuff- how many lawns have they treated in their lives? 2 or 3? Did they put in their 10,000 hours? Me, I've treated thousands personally (ChemLawn), as well as in 10 years online, have worked with hundreds directly, and thousands indirectly. What that means is I have some real chops - I'm not just internet educated. So I hope that gives more weight to the few products/manufacturers I have chosen to align with. (the brands I work with, BTW, are real brands, not just "made for Amazon" for which there are many of those today as well)
3) Always remember, I am not, and have NEVER been the guy telling you "our stuff is better than everyone else's" or "this is the only thing you ever need" (Even though I do like our biochar better because chickens poop on it) but I seem to get lumped in with that rhetoric and that is sad to me. Additionally, for me, when it comes to representing a product, a lot of that has to do with the people behind the product. Heck, the owner of Carbon Earth is here, answering your questions. Matt answers questions in Discord every 10 min. Will the hired CEO of "Big fert company X" do that? When you buy their stuff, does that go to that CEO's $7M bonus or does it go to hire another American worker in a rural area? You see, I like to support small business and startups instead of multi-billion dollar conglomerates that suck up to Ag and golf and see DIY as a nuisance. If you guys really knew what all these big companies thought of us, you'd never support them again.

I had a lot more here but deleted it lol. 
Thank you for supporting what I/we do.
see you in the lawn!
AL


----------



## Jfarm_13

@LawnCareNut I agree with everything you stated above. This is your job now, it's not a side gig. You are putting your money and your reputation on the line to buy from Matt and make your own packages and sell to the diy community. If a beginner decides that if 3 pounds per thousand is good but 10 would be better and ruins their lawn, they will inevitably blame you. After all this is a professional product and has a higher N count than say milorganite which is very safe to thower' Down with.

I understand the smaller bags if it comes down to shipping. I imagine shipping for 1 bag of fertilizer adds quite a bit of cost. The 5 extra pounds just means maybe 1 more app depending on yard size. But add $20 more and you price yourself out of the bag.

There are a few people on YouTube that are just pushing products, but you and Matt are not in that category for me. I applaud you for always looking out for the diy community. If anyone doesn't think you have a great impact on the sale of milorganite they are crazy. I don't think there is anyone in this group or discord that doesn't think you weren't a part of their lawn journey in some aspect. Keep up the good work! I will keep supporting you


----------



## LA Basshole03

Anecdotal information here, I used CX last year and saw good results. I saw a good initial surge growth followed by steady performance. My Bermuda filled in very nicely.

The biggest thing I like about the CX line is the whole bag has purpose. Most ferts are 50% or more filler. I live in Texas on a limestone rock so I don't need anymore calcium going down on my lawn.

Listening to Matt over the last year or so I have learned a lot and his product seems to preform as expected.

Cost per app for 5k lawn
Scott's $18
Milo $32
CX $20

That's not bad considering that you have to take shipping into account for CX. Like some have said being able to source it locally would save even more and bring your cost down.

This is a startup company that has gone from nothing to up and running in no time flat and are producing quality products. Yes there have been hiccups and everything is a learning process but the way the product has changed from last year to this year shows a willingness to adapt and overcome challenges.


----------



## dman

LA Basshole03 said:


> Anecdotal information here, I used CX last year and saw good results. I saw a good initial surge growth followed by steady performance. My Bermuda filled in very nicely.
> 
> The biggest thing I like about the CX line is the whole bag has purpose. Most ferts are 50% or more filler. I live in Texas on a limestone rock so I don't need anymore calcium going down on my lawn.
> 
> Listening to Matt over the last year or so I have learned a lot and his product seems to preform as expected.
> 
> Cost per app for 5k lawn
> Scott's $18
> Milo $32
> CX $20
> 
> That's not bad considering that you have to take shipping into account for CX. Like some have said being able to source it locally would save even more and bring your cost down.
> 
> This is a startup company that has gone from nothing to up and running in no time flat and are producing quality products. Yes there have been hiccups and everything is a learning process but the way the product has changed from last year to this year shows a willingness to adapt and overcome challenges.


Thanks for the info. Actual user reviews are 10 times more valuable than a salesman's pitch.


----------



## ThePowerTool

dman said:


> Thanks for the info. Actual user reviews are 10 times more valuable than a salesman's pitch.


My man, I'm with you on being a skeptical consumer and there are defintely certain folks on YouTube who are essentially just marketing channels for certain brands' Amazon sales, but at this point there are dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on this forum testifying to the quality of the products made by Matt and sold by Allyn. I'll lump the Greene Co. folks in this same category too because they face a lot of the same skepticism despite the tons of positive user reviews on this forum.

Both Matt and Allyn go above and beyond what I would expect of them. Allyn still sells guides that you can follow without using a single item he sells, and Matt literally reads scientific/university studies in his videos to justify the decisions he makes when making his product. The fact that they take the time to answer questions and address concerns should be lauded.


----------



## deeevo

I bought a bag last year and I will be buying another this year. I have had great results using it. Right now a 50 lb bag of Lesco 26-2-11 at HD is $47 and you don't get chicken poop. Its is a no brainer.


----------



## Rooster

@thegrassfactor and @LawnCareNut-- even if I don't ever buy your products (I do things differently, so I may not!) I just want to say that I loved your posts above. The passion is palpable. Keep doing what you're doing, and thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.


----------



## dman

ThePowerTool said:


> dman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the info. Actual user reviews are 10 times more valuable than a salesman's pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> My man, I'm with you on being a skeptical consumer and there are defintely certain folks on YouTube who are essentially just marketing channels for certain brands' Amazon sales, but at this point there are dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on this forum testifying to the quality of the products made by Matt and sold by Allyn. I'll lump the Greene Co. folks in this same category too because they face a lot of the same skepticism despite the tons of positive user reviews on this forum.
> 
> Both Matt and Allyn go above and beyond what I would expect of them. Allyn still sells guides that you can follow without using a single item he sells, and Matt literally reads scientific/university studies in his videos to justify the decisions he makes when making his product. The fact that they take the time to answer questions and address concerns should be lauded.
Click to expand...

I get Matt's point of view and Indo not blame him. Allyn has good videos and informative lawn care guides which should help alot. I could see someone having poor soil and using the fert only to give it a bad review when it was their poor soil at fault. You really need a program for lawn care that encompasses other aspects than fertilizer.

There is no magic potion that makes for a great lawn. Once I know my lawn and soil are healthy then these fertilizer products should stand on their own.


----------



## Green

@thegrassfactor, thank you for the detailed replies and info!



TN Hawkeye said:


> @thegrassfactor thank you for speaking so candidly.


Seconded!

@thegrassfactor, I'm going to post a few follow-ups now, after reading your post twice:



thegrassfactor said:


> No, we now use a new urea prill that is coated with DCD and NBPT.


Interesting!



thegrassfactor said:


> DCD is a nitrification inhibitor which would work on AMS, but we are not applying it to the AMS.


Cool. So, if I'm understanding it all completely, your fast release portion is now composed of two types of prill: (stabilized) urea prill and also (non-stabilized) AMS prill. But there are two separate fast-release prills now, correct? But the proportions of AMS, urea, etc., are identical in the new formula to the old one?



thegrassfactor said:


> Truthfully, we're using it because it's part of a carrier we use to 1. reduce atmospheric hygroscopicity and 2. reduce clinging to our equipment. It's purely for material handling purposes.


Fascinating. The reduced hygroscopicity sounds like a good thing for the end-user as well to prevent caking if a bag gets a slight tear, or you're using part of a bag at a time, and to sticking in application equipment. I remember seeing urea prills that I spilled on concrete melting (sublimating?) back in September when it was still a bit humid.



Green said:


> I'm, simply put, extremely emotional. I can handle narrative, but so often the conversation becomes heated or steered towards personal feelings or aversion to packaging or disdain in the marketing efforts. That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.


I hear you, man! I'm similar. It takes someone to care about doing something.



Green said:


> I was a micro-hair from pulling our material from all online sales this year. I was humiliated by large distributors all fall and frankly I was tired of it.


That sucks. There's no excuse. I'm sorry you had to go through this. People can be nasty. It's not right. I don't get it.



Green said:


> That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.


We've never met, and to you, I'm probably just some guy who occasionally asks you questions online, but my impression is that you're the passionate guy who thinks a lot, and is both the brain and the practical…a theoretician and a experimentalist…two things which any renaissance man needs in order to accomplish things.



Green said:


> So if you decide to use the new product, thank you. Seriously. And secondly, it's our attempt at rescrapping almost the entirety of the plant, shifting the ingredients, and replacing a biostimulant that is debateable to one that we had a full growing season to test in a variety of regions and soil conditions, and evolving our manufacturing process. Aggitation agglomeration is not as easy as we thought it was, but we're learning. And the 2020 version is the fruit of our study and labor.


Thanks for the insight. It's amazing how what we might assume at first glance was changes due to product enhancement, availability of materials, etc., is much more than that. Thanks for the window into your business and life! And as always, best wishes for 2020.


----------



## Green

LawnCareNut said:


> I had a lot more here but deleted it lol.
> Thank you for supporting what I/we do.
> see you in the lawn!
> AL


Thanks for doing what you do!

You've probably deleted more about lawns in your time than I've written! :mrgreen:


----------



## ThePowerTool

thegrassfactor said:


> ...replacing a biostimulant that is debateable...


This must be a reference to RGS. Are you saying that the effects specifically of this product are debatable, or that the effects of HA/FA in general are debatable?


----------



## Jameshtx

Serious legitimate question folks. Does chicken poop loses potency? I have a brand new unopened bag of CarbonX from last season stored inside a closed Husky storage bin(Home Depot) which was and still is stored inside my garage. Would be unfortunate if I let a whole bag of it go to waste


----------



## Pemt13

Jameshtx said:


> Serious legitimate question folks. Does chicken poop loses potency? I have a brand new unopened bag of CarbonX from last season stored inside a closed Husky storage bin(Home Depot) which was and still is stored inside my garage. Would be unfortunate if I let a whole bag of it go to waste


I've heard @thegrassfactor say in more than one video that if it is stored in a dry, cool place, the shelf life is years. Search some of Matt's videos on youtube. He definitely discusses that.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Pemt13 said:


> Jameshtx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Serious legitimate question folks. Does chicken poop loses potency? I have a brand new unopened bag of CarbonX from last season stored inside a closed Husky storage bin(Home Depot) which was and still is stored inside my garage. Would be unfortunate if I let a whole bag of it go to waste
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard @thegrassfactor say in more than one video that if it is stored in a dry, cool place, the shelf life is years. Search some of Matt's videos on youtube. He definitely discusses that.
Click to expand...

I bought 4 bags of CX last year when it hit the scene. I still have 2 that are boxed and they stink as bad as they did the first day that arrived. I keep them off the ground in the garage that doesn't drop below freezing.


----------



## Reel Low Dad

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Pemt13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jameshtx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Serious legitimate question folks. Does chicken poop loses potency? I have a brand new unopened bag of CarbonX from last season stored inside a closed Husky storage bin(Home Depot) which was and still is stored inside my garage. Would be unfortunate if I let a whole bag of it go to waste
> 
> 
> 
> That garage must smell amazing.
> 
> I've heard @thegrassfactor say in more than one video that if it is stored in a dry, cool place, the shelf life is years. Search some of Matt's videos on youtube. He definitely discusses that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I bought 4 bags of CX last year when it hit the scene. I still have 2 that are boxed and they stink as bad as they did the first day that arrived. I keep them off the ground in the garage that doesn't drop below freezing.
Click to expand...


----------



## NewLawnJon

thegrassfactor said:


> This is me speaking very candidly and honestly:
> 
> I did not want our products in the DIY market. I still struggle with it. I finally sucumbed to the idea by the business minds and pressure and presentation by the likes of Allyn Hayne and Pete Denny. Allyn is so emotionally invested in his audience, it's charming. His priority is to make sure the DIY market is not only accepted, but viewed with respect. And as such, the same products the pros use, he wants to offer his audience. He may even come across as preachy because he believes as much as he preaches. And we all know Pete is in a perpetual journey of perfect fescue. He'll try anything, and if he likes it, he'll support it. Pete and I go back long before YouTube. He's as much of a personal friend as anyone else I know.
> 
> Personally, I didn't want my brand, my baby, and my risk (as others stated) diluted by people who could potentially do silly stuff, like apply 30lbs of fertilizer on 400sqft (which happened). I didn't want to sit down with a distributor and be told "your product is a homeowner product, not a pro product" - regardless of bag contents (which happened). I didn't want to deal with the feedback of "over-hyped" "too expensive" "scam" "con job" from people who never used the product (which happened) because of my emotional investment in my business/dream. For those of you that know me personally, know I get way overly emotional about anything I do, including my company, my family, or even friends. I'm the kind of guy that will drink a pint (or 5th) of vodka and hug the night away with happy tears free flowing. I'm, simply put, extremely emotional. I can handle narrative, but so often the conversation becomes heated or steered towards personal feelings or aversion to packaging or disdain in the marketing efforts. That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.
> 
> I was a micro-hair from pulling our material from all online sales this year. I was humiliated by large distributors all fall and frankly I was tired of it. If we were going to rebrand, we were going to completely rebrand or completely shift our business model to custom manufacturing. We're more profitable manufactuing non-commoditized materials anyways. That being said, the preservation of the relationship I have with Allyn, with Pete, and with many of even you folks on this board, steered me towards coming up with another solution. That solution was to relabel the product with my name off of it (Carbon Earth) except for that one little corner that says "manufactured by." It may seem small, but to the ridiculousness of a brain, it meant a lot. It gives me a reason to sit back and watch the narrative because technically that's not my product. That's your product. That's Allyn's product. That's Pete's product.
> 
> So if you decide to use the new product, thank you. Seriously. And secondly, it's our attempt at rescrapping almost the entirety of the plant, shifting the ingredients, and replacing a biostimulant that is debateable to one that we had a full growing season to test in a variety of regions and soil conditions, and evolving our manufacturing process. Aggitation agglomeration is not as easy as we thought it was, but we're learning. And the 2020 version is the fruit of our study and labor.


Matt, thanks for allowing us in the DIY market to support you, your product, and your passions. we love you just the way you are. :friends:


----------



## dman

Jameshtx said:


> Serious legitimate question folks. Does chicken poop loses potency? I have a brand new unopened bag of CarbonX from last season stored inside a closed Husky storage bin(Home Depot) which was and still is stored inside my garage. Would be unfortunate if I let a whole bag of it go to waste


You cannot go wrong with chicken poop fert. I would say it is probably still good if you stored it in a cool and dry place. The poop is supposed be soaked into the biochar if I understand correctly. Whether or not the biochar actually gets into the soil is another question.


----------



## Matthew_73

dman said:


> At 60 bucks a bag I would just hope it works. There is alot of info from the YouTube crowd peddling it but in the end you just have to try it for yourself to see if it works for you.


I bought a bag, and did a 2#/K and have noticed an uptake in more green and in grass growth.. But I will add another 2# in a week or so and then in May, add a Urea to start the Summer off


----------



## PostageStampLawnGuy

So RGS is an unproven biostimulant? Just curious if I'm reading that right and that's why peptides are in place this year.


----------



## Brent_K

thegrassfactor said:


> 3.) Any difference other than the labels, between the "pro" and DIY formulas?
> 
> Slight difference, but none worth noting. And it kind of bridges into the rest of the conversation...
> 
> This is me speaking very candidly and honestly:
> 
> I did not want our products in the DIY market. I still struggle with it. I finally sucumbed to the idea by the business minds and pressure and presentation by the likes of Allyn Hayne and Pete Denny. Allyn is so emotionally invested in his audience, it's charming. His priority is to make sure the DIY market is not only accepted, but viewed with respect. And as such, the same products the pros use, he wants to offer his audience. He may even come across as preachy because he believes as much as he preaches. And we all know Pete is in a perpetual journey of perfect fescue. He'll try anything, and if he likes it, he'll support it. Pete and I go back long before YouTube. He's as much of a personal friend as anyone else I know.
> 
> Personally, I didn't want my brand, my baby, and my risk (as others stated) diluted by people who could potentially do silly stuff, like apply 30lbs of fertilizer on 400sqft (which happened). I didn't want to sit down with a distributor and be told "your product is a homeowner product, not a pro product" - regardless of bag contents (which happened). I didn't want to deal with the feedback of "over-hyped" "too expensive" "scam" "con job" from people who never used the product (which happened) because of my emotional investment in my business/dream. For those of you that know me personally, know I get way overly emotional about anything I do, including my company, my family, or even friends. I'm the kind of guy that will drink a pint (or 5th) of vodka and hug the night away with happy tears free flowing. I'm, simply put, extremely emotional. I can handle narrative, but so often the conversation becomes heated or steered towards personal feelings or aversion to packaging or disdain in the marketing efforts. That's why I don't run our business. I formulate and support the pro side of sales.
> 
> I was a micro-hair from pulling our material from all online sales this year. I was humiliated by large distributors all fall and frankly I was tired of it. If we were going to rebrand, we were going to completely rebrand or completely shift our business model to custom manufacturing. We're more profitable manufactuing non-commoditized materials anyways. That being said, the preservation of the relationship I have with Allyn, with Pete, and with many of even you folks on this board, steered me towards coming up with another solution. That solution was to relabel the product with my name off of it (Carbon Earth) except for that one little corner that says "manufactured by." It may seem small, but to the ridiculousness of a brain, it meant a lot. It gives me a reason to sit back and watch the narrative because technically that's not my product. That's your product. That's Allyn's product. That's Pete's product.
> 
> So if you decide to use the new product, thank you. Seriously. And secondly, it's our attempt at rescrapping almost the entirety of the plant, shifting the ingredients, and replacing a biostimulant that is debateable to one that we had a full growing season to test in a variety of regions and soil conditions, and evolving our manufacturing process. Aggitation agglomeration is not as easy as we thought it was, but we're learning. And the 2020 version is the fruit of our study and labor.


I see someone else asked this, but just hoping to get clarification. The debatable biostimulant is RGS, is that correct? Can you give some info on that? I get not wanting to throw a company under the bus, but any info you have on how your product is superior will be helpful.


----------



## thegrassfactor

Brent_K said:


> I see someone else asked this, but just hoping to get clarification. The debatable biostimulant is RGS, is that correct? Can you give some info on that? I get not wanting to throw a company under the bus, but any info you have on how your product is superior will be helpful.


No, not specifically RGS. That hasn't been apart of our product since May 2019. We were using however humic acid and kelp. I say debateable because of the strict timing adherance that needs to be followed. VA Tech recommended 2 week intervals. We sent out an email detailing a brief summary of the controlled experiment we did as part of our CRRP Technology campaign. Short form: over a six week period we could induce NPK deficiency symptoms grown in sand using humic and kelp. There were no deficiency symptoms in the peptide treated cups. Also, we achieved more tillering and plant maturation over the six week period in the starter fertilizer control peptide vs. humic acid and kelp cups. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I'm not debating humic acid and kelp aren't effective - they are, it's proven. I'm saying one is a better fit for what we expect of our product than the other.


----------



## LawnDetail

I starting using Carbon Earth products last year and they have outperformed any other products I've used. It has more than just N-P-K like the big box stores. I don't make You Tube videos or anything, I just truly like Matt's product. I understand having to drop 5lbs to make it affordable and appreciate that. Just like anything else in life, try it out and make your own decision.


----------



## CenlaLowell

I would love to try it out myself but I would like.to buy a pallet to bring the cost down.


----------



## daviddsims

Maybe we could get a Louisiana group buy?


----------



## Pemt13

Anyone in Maryland can buy at Ballard Enterprises.

http://squareup.com/store/ballardscountrygardens


----------



## LoveMyLawn

How often are y'all applying and at what rate on Bermuda? Bermuda Bible says .5-1lb per 1000 of Nitrogen every 30 days. The Carb X guide sheet I have says every 6-8 weeks.


----------



## cnet24

Man I am really out of the loop here. Anyone care to give me a super high level summary of the changes to Carbon-X from last year to this year and what drove the change?

I participated in a group buy in Atlanta last year and got 1 year supply for around $35/bag. I experienced some of the noted clumping issues but nothing out of the ordinary. I enjoy using the product and view it as superior to any big box fertilizer and am really satisfied with the results.

If I go to make another purchase this year, what has changed?


----------



## corneliani

@cnet24 - To start with I think their biggest driver of change has been their nitrogen source - away from the YaraVera N that proved so clumpy and into a coated/nitrification-inhibited Urea. And of course the change away from using Kelp/HA as a biostimulant and into a peptide/amino-acid biostimulant they call CRRP. It's this last change that had some ppl wondering what's going on, but Matt does seem to confirm in multiple instances that it's due to the synergies that the chicken compost has with the peptides that he claims gives better results. He mentioned once that HA/Kelp in their biochar+compost-driven fertilizer was a bit redundant as they both act the same way, ie holding nutrients close to the root zone. The addition of peptide, imo, not only sets them apart from their competitors but also complements their fertilizer mix better.

Check out their updated webpage, they did a good job on it and has some cool graphics showing side-by-side comparisons as well as a Release Curve showing when/how long to expect the different sources of Nitrogen to release.


----------



## corneliani

LoveMyLawn said:


> How often are y'all applying and at what rate on Bermuda? Bermuda Bible says .5-1lb per 1000 of Nitrogen every 30 days. The Carb X guide sheet I have says every 6-8 weeks.


As I understand it the Bermuda Bible, and all references to nitrogen application for that matter, does not mean to imply physically applying monthly application of fertilizer... it is referencing the monthly nutrition requirements of the plant itself, with the application interval dependent on the strength of the product and its release timeframe. There are products available that can literally last 4+ months at steady release rates (fine print would be added here) due to their chemical/physical components. This would mean that a fast-release product would ideally be applied at lower rates but more frequent intervals (ie, monthly?) while a slower release product can go on heavier but less frequently. It's the net monthly nitrogen amount that is being referenced.

Taking things to another level - most fertilizers are going to have an initial "kick" of release from their fast-release components (even Milorganite!). And together with the reality that nature & the environment has an effect on the long-term release capabilities of most ferts - that can only be controlled so much - it seems smarter to go at lighter rates more frequently, time permitting.

Personally i'm gravitating towards going 6-8 weeks with 3-4# of cX for the general soil feeding, and supplementing with foliar nitrogen & iron spray in between. This not only works out well since I'm applying PGR during these times anyhow, but it allows me to use the weather to my advantage.


----------



## LoveMyLawn

Thanks @corneliani that makes sense. I just got in some PGR and I will be spraying FEature too. So the 6-8 week plan sounds like a solid one.


----------



## FedDawg555

Ware said:


> @thegrassfactor these questions are probably best directed straight to you.


@thegrassfactor

So is this new Subvert Depth-10 Plus, product line where the Root Promoting Peptides that are now is liquid spray able form, coming from y'all? If so give us the 411.

https://subvertnpk.com/product/depth-10-plus/


----------



## thegrassfactor

FedDawg555 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor these questions are probably best directed straight to you.
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor
> 
> So is this new Subvert Depth-10 Plus, product line where the Root Promoting Peptides that are now is liquid spray able form, coming from y'all? If so give us the 411.
> 
> https://subvertnpk.com/product/depth-10-plus/
Click to expand...

D10 is what we infuse into our granular, not my product.

I've used it long enough to be able to talk about it fairly well. What questions do you have?


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## FedDawg555

thegrassfactor said:


> FedDawg555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor these questions are probably best directed straight to you.
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor
> 
> So is this new Subvert Depth-10 Plus, product line where the Root Promoting Peptides that are now is liquid spray able form, coming from y'all? If so give us the 411.
> 
> https://subvertnpk.com/product/depth-10-plus/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> D10 is what we infuse into our granular, not my product.
> 
> I've used it long enough to be able to talk about it fairly well. What questions do you have?
Click to expand...

My goal this year is to really drive the roots on the year old Bermuda 419 and Tiftuf.
I've already done 250# of Xsoil after aeration in early March.
1 round of Carbon X 2 days ago with plans on using Carbon X as my primary for the season.
I will be using a Reel Mower along with TNex PGR.
Can I add Subvert D10+ as a monthly supplement, at the 1.5 or 3 oz p/1000 rate, for the additional Root Peptides without Causing issues since the CarbonX and XSoil already have The peptides? And do you see using D10 being Beneficial for my goals in combination with the CarbonX products.
Thanks, Kris


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## thegrassfactor

FedDawg555 said:


> My goal this year is to really drive the roots on the year old Bermuda 419 and Tiftuf.
> I've already done 250# of Xsoil after aeration in early March.
> 1 round of Carbon X 2 days ago with plans on using Carbon X as my primary for the season.
> I will be using a Reel Mower along with TNex PGR.
> Can I add Subvert D10+ as a monthly supplement, at the 1.5 or 3 oz p/1000 rate, for the additional Root Peptides without Causing issues since the CarbonX and XSoil already have The peptides? And do you see using D10 being Beneficial for my goals in combination with the CarbonX products.
> Thanks, Kris


One thing I would recommend: pay attention to your K levels. Carbon X is fun, but there's not a lot of K in that material. Remember N drives the uptake of K and if you're not applying 2:1 N:K, you're tapping the soil for what it has available.

Most high end warm season guys I work with will usually jump start things with CX and then run 4-7lbs/M of XGRN for the remainder of the season (assuming they have adequate phos, otherwise some people will kickstart the season with XSTART in lieu of CX - thinking of one specific company in Columbus).

Yes you can run that rate of D10 along side any of our products, but do not exceed 7 applications at 3oz/M per growing season, or you'll start running into weirdness. I don't know how to describe it other than "freaking out" the grass. Higher than that it and it's pretty swift death.

Yes we do see benefit running D10 alongside the granular products. We did some winter work on TifEagle in FL on a small scale and are still seeing getting good feedback.


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## FedDawg555

thegrassfactor said:


> FedDawg555 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My goal this year is to really drive the roots on the year old Bermuda 419 and Tiftuf.
> I've already done 250# of Xsoil after aeration in early March.
> 1 round of Carbon X 2 days ago with plans on using Carbon X as my primary for the season.
> I will be using a Reel Mower along with TNex PGR.
> Can I add Subvert D10+ as a monthly supplement, at the 1.5 or 3 oz p/1000 rate, for the additional Root Peptides without Causing issues since the CarbonX and XSoil already have The peptides? And do you see using D10 being Beneficial for my goals in combination with the CarbonX products.
> Thanks, Kris
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I would recommend: pay attention to your K levels. Carbon X is fun, but there's not a lot of K in that material. Remember N drives the uptake of K and if you're not applying 2:1 N:K, you're tapping the soil for what it has available.
> 
> Most high end warm season guys I work with will usually jump start things with CX and then run 4-7lbs/M of XGRN for the remainder of the season (assuming they have adequate phos, otherwise some people will kickstart the season with XSTART in lieu of CX - thinking of one specific company in Columbus).
> 
> Yes you can run that rate of D10 along side any of our products, but do not exceed 7 applications at 3oz/M per growing season, or you'll start running into weirdness. I don't know how to describe it other than "freaking out" the grass. Higher than that it and it's pretty swift death.
> 
> Yes we do see benefit running D10 alongside the granular products. We did some winter work on TifEagle in FL on a small scale and are still seeing getting good feedback.
Click to expand...

Funny you mention K because my soil test shows that's one area I'm really good in. However my Phosphorus is really low and soil test recommended 2.5 lbs/M of phosphorus so I was planning to run a bag of X start in a few weeks for the phosphorus. Wish my soil test results had came in sooner and would have ran the X start first. I will definitely look at XGRN for other feedings. Thanks for the tips on the Subvert apps.


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## LLMS123

Sorry to just chime in here but just wondering if there was anyway to get my hands on the 8-1-8 XGN DIY fert here in Canada?


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