# Big mess up with pre emergent and new sprayer



## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Oh Lord
So I received my spreadermate and was excited to take her on the maiden voyage. I did calibration on my driveway with tennis shoes . Reading over paperwork, with the supplied nozzles , I should be able to treat around 30,000 square feet with one tank. Cool I'm sooooo excited. I have 22,000 and an area in future renovation I was going to spray totaling about 29,000. 
I just mechanically aerated and was going to put down more pre-emergent. 
Nooooo I couldn't wait on the red nozzles that @Ware told me to use. Noooo I shouldn't take the advice of someone who does it all the time. I'm good. I want to try it. 
So I filled up my new sprayer with enough dithiapyr WSB to treat 30,000 square feet. I put in a gallon of Air8 in the mix (which would be slightly under the max rate for 30,000 sqft.) 
I then put on my rubber boots ( calibrated in tennis shoes and driveway) turned on my music. And proceeded to walk the walk. 
I was walking to 1990's boy band "New Edition". After 6,000 square feet the pressure in the tank started to drop.
What could it be?
Clogged teejet?? Nope
Looked in the tank and it was empty. My heart sank. 
So I sprayed 5 times the dose I was wanting to. 
Damn You !!! 1990's Boy Band 
I was trying to spray 12.2 grams per 1000square feet
And I sprayed 61 grams per 1000sqft. Over 6000 square feet of the side and front yard.

Is there anything I can do?
I guess I'm going to get some serious root prooning.
I guess I will have some seriously Air8 soil. Might be able to breath underground. 
I bet I will still get crabgrass :shock: :shock: 
Laughing to avoid crying.

I just rolled the sprayer in the corner. 
I haven't even put the "Lawn Forum" stickers I got in the mail today. 
I am not worthy of them yet


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

With the yellow nozzles? If it makes you feel any better, the reds would have sprayed twice as much. Let me run some math on that 30k claim...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Tellycoleman... Ok. I feel your pain. This took guts to post. Hopefully you at least get to have a nice desert or beverage this weekend to take your mind off it.

Anyone (like me) who is still at the novice level when it comes to spraying, can learn from this, though. So Thank you for posting!

I think we should start analyzing what went wrong, so it doesn't happen again! 
Bring it on, @Ware !


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

@Tellycoleman what pressure were you at?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Wow @Tellycoleman . You have an awesome sense of humor. 
Breath underground :lol: still get crabgrass

I feel your pain. I bet we all feel your pain.

Last year I monumentally overdosed a section of my lawn with humic acid and kelp. Smelled fishy for two months or better, but I never noticed any adverse reaction.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you haven't watered it, then:

Get your rotary mower out. Place the bag to collect the clippings. Go mow and dispose of the clippings. Then lower the mower height and do it again. Use your car lights to help you see. The idea is to get as much as you can before the rain/dew gets it to the soil.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Ware said:


> @Tellycoleman what pressure were you at?


20 psi


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

g-man said:


> If you haven't watered it, then:
> 
> Get your rotary mower out. Place the bag to collect the clippings. Go mow and dispose of the clippings. Then lower the mower height and do it again. Use your car lights to help you see. The idea is to get as much as you can before the rain/dew gets it to the soil.


It started raining after the tank emptied


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Also, the dithiapyr WSB is normally sold in pouches that dissolve in water, how many did you use? How many gallons of water you added?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

9 gallon tank
I used 260 grams about 1 and 2/3 pack
I already know what happened. 
Music + change of shoe+ the electric slid + not paying attention + over confidence = major mess up.

If someone can benefit from my tragedy then it is worth it. That's why I posted this


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

30k sounded pretty optimistic because I like to spray at a rate closer to 1 gal/M, but Gregson-Clark does say:



> ...The low drift, low volume nozzles allow up to 30,000 sq. feet of coverage per fill at a .3 gallon/1,000 sq. ft. rate...


I can see how they arrive at that number with yellow nozzles - e.g. if you operated the system at 20 psi and maintained at least 3mph.

That said, with the TTI11002's at 20 psi, I would expect your application rate to fall somewhere between 0.32-0.48 gal/M. You can use the green shaded area of the chart below to estimate how your application rate (in gallons per thousand) would respond to changing nozzle color, pressure, and ground speed.

This is all theoretical of course because it is difficult to measure your actual speed, you're slightly slower walking uphill, etc. How about overlap? On each pass the tip of your boom should be about 10" away from where the tip of the boom was on your previous pass (to simulate the proper 20" nozzle spacing). I haven't used mine yet, but I think that would definitely take some getting used to. Is it possible that your overlap was too generous?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

9 gallons in 6ksqft with the yellow nozzle at 20 psi? Something is not adding up. 1.5gallons/M? Could you have a leak?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

The problem is that I had never owned a battery powered sprayer of any kind. I have been using the wheel driven earth way 25s my entire lawn journey. With the Earthway the slower you walk the slower the spray. I think I returned to my old muscle memory and only snapped out of it when the tank was empty. 
I am eventually gonna try again. 
Not to. Worried about the Air8


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Definitely blame the 90s boy band.

What were you doing listening to them anyway? &#128521;


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Even if you walk at 0.5mph, I don't see how you could get 1.5gallons/M (using the yellow nozzle, 20psi).


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

g-man said:


> Even if you walk at 0.5mph, I don't see how you could get 1.5gallons/M (using the yellow nozzle, 20psi).


Even with 4 nozzles I have the B model?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ok, now it make sense (x4).


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

How slow were you walking?

My backyard is 7000sqft. I am using the yellow nozzles at a higher PSI where I am putting out 0.8GPM. I am using a 12 gallon sprayer. It takes me 15 minutes to empty the sprayer and I've usually walked the entire yard four times, so about 28000 sqft's worth of ground covered.

In the most respectful sense, it sounds like you either were waking super slow, had major overlap and should have covered more sqft at your pace, have a problem with the system, or a combo? Which was it?


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## gijoe4500 (Mar 17, 2017)

For next trial calibration, would it be worth just using water and blue dye, and walking the actual 30K, to see how far 1 tank full gets you?


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Silver lining - you'll have no weeds there for months!


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

I significantly over applied prodiamine last spring for the first few thousand square feet. I got lucky and it down poured that same day.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

What would happen with a pre-em overdose and how long would it take to recover?


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## Rackhouse Mayor (Sep 4, 2017)

Silver lining: you still have half an acre of perfectly fine lawn.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

gatormac2112 said:


> What would happen with a pre-em overdose and how long would it take to recover?


I volunteer to be the test subject. I will take pictures and see. I think I will treat heavy with RGS and Kelp to try and encourage what I can of root growth. I thought about over watering everything but I just did mechanical aeration also. How much would run off and how much would seep in the holes. It's 34 degrees today I will take pictures tomorrow.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Guess what came in the mail!' Today 

Patience is not my virtue.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> ...Patience is not my virtue.


 :lol:

Just remember the reds are rated for 0.4 gpm at 40 psi. The yellows are 0.2 gpm at 40 psi. Twice the flow.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Gotcha so about 6000sqft per tank full. 
Trust me I am going to do the entire lawn as a test with nothing but water next go round. I have been doing so much research I'm a semi expert.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> Gotcha so about 6000sqft per tank full.
> Trust me I am going to do the entire lawn as a test with nothing but water next go round. I have been doing so much research I'm a semi expert.


10-4, and thank you for sharing your experience. It's a good reminder for us all on the importance of sprayer calibration.

Fortunately, you don't grow some sissy grass - I'm pretty confident the bermuda will survive this. :thumbup:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> gatormac2112 said:
> 
> 
> > What would happen with a pre-em overdose and how long would it take to recover?
> ...


Preemergent running into the aeration holes is not that bad. It only lasts a few months and you are doing this to established Bermuda grass. Bermuda is extremely difficult to kill and keep dead via chemicals in the soil. It can be done, and I know how it is done, but that would take down any vegetation within 25 ft of the area. I could be wrong about this, but most labels are written such that a 2x overdose is not going to do anything horrific to the grass. The manufacturers have to figure on what if the booms used on the golf courses accidentally overlap more than what they should. If that were the case, every time the overlap was wrong, there would be stripes of dead grass.

X2 on the need for calibration. Every time I get some kind of new nozzle or boom, or piece, it gets tested with plain water until I know how much is being dispensed per 1000 sq ft. Other thing I am looking for is how much drift is being created. If those nozzles are the XRC series, they are anything but low drift. I definitely use the AIC nozzles for herbicides. Fertilizers and insecticides, I do not worry as much unless I am spraying right next to or near someone's Koi pond.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

update
Further research. Yes I applied 5 times what I intended to. However I was only applying a half dose.
So really I was only 2.5 over max dose. Still not good but not as bad as I thought.

Guess What area of my lawn is greening up more and looking better than any other area.
yep the *NORTH* facing side of my house that received the overdose. Could it be that I put down 5 times the amount of Air8 along with the pre-emergent. Or could it be that it was the only area that received RGS and Humic after the overdose.

I will take pictures as soon as the endless rain stops.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Hopefully you lucked out!


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Ok so I have an update from the 7k overdose about a month ago. 
I have treated it with 2 doses of RGS at max rate
2 doses of humic and Air8 at max rate.

I think I probably need to rent a scarifier to possibly break the pre emergent barier. 
A lot of The brown stolons you see in the video are ones that were cut buy the reel. Since they can't tac down they are dying. 
This is my north facing lawn 4K. 
The other 3k in the front doesn't look as bad. I think because the north side had more spring dead spot. I am maintaining at 1/2 inch bench height. 
Any Advice?? (Sorry for the Blair Witch camera motion)
https://youtu.be/1Uq8ksRNtt4


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

> I bet I will still get crabgrass


Like f%c?ing clock work :lol:


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

A rotary mower at the lowest setting would make short work of those stolons.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> Ok so I have an update from the 7k overdose about a month ago.
> I have treated it with 2 doses of RGS at max rate
> 2 doses of humic and Air8 at max rate.
> 
> ...


Have you been hitting fertilizer?

If it were me, I would look into core aeration


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## TigerinFL (Mar 29, 2018)

what would happen if you fertilized the heck out of your bermuda? to make it jump.

just spitballing here for ideas.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

J_nick said:


> A rotary mower at the lowest setting would make short work of those stolons.


Then I wouldn't have any coverage. Lol
My hopes is at least by the end of August the pre-emergent will have worn off and things begin to tac.
If not I will have long enough stolons to make, weave and sale TLF Bermuda baskets. 
Who wants one?
Yes I have been hitting it with fert.
I did core aeration this year before I applied pre-m. But it won't hurt to do another.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

Should have went with Riviera :fight:


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

J_nick said:


> Should have went with Riviera :fight:


Lol Riviera would have withstood the pre-emergent. 
The 1st time my lawn thawed out and greened up in February I had very little damage. But after 3-4 more hot weeks cold week cycles this spring my north facing lawn was done


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

Eh I got a spot in a corner where I double-triple dosed it with PreM and 2,4D that's not looking so hot. Starting to see some green come back though.


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## Rockinar (Jul 21, 2017)

The real crime is listening to New Edition.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Hey @Tellycoleman, I was thinking that you and I are kinda in the same boat, where there's a lot of leggy stolons, except you're working with more established crowns, and mine are recovering from the winter. I had to put down a split app of Prodiamine this spring, and I'm getting a lot of stolons that aren't tacking down too. I'm planning on throwing down a lot of sand, and think that it might do you some good too to give those stolons something to grab onto. Think "putting green" where they have huge sand caps... Works for them, why not us?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Sand capping is one way to fix root pruning from preemergent applications. Idea is that the grass takes root in the sand rather than the dirt and pre. Prodiamine is not the worst thing as far as root pruning is concerned. From mildest to worst. Prodiamine<Dithiopyr<Pendimethalin<Oryzalin<Indaziflam. The last 3 named I will only apply to well established Zoysia. Zoysia has the most deep rhizomes out of all of the warm season grasses.


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## Reel Low Dad (Jun 1, 2017)

I noticed tons of the leggy stolons as well last night. I also have had a less than desirable green up and had that same 3 attempts of green up with freezing temps afterward. Right now I'm thinking it will just be an off year and to go with the flow. On the other hand we haven't had much rain at all since the temps got really warm. I did apply a granular AMS application plus RGS and Air 8 last week and am doing weekly liquid applications of ENC the first one being last Saturday.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Sand capping is one way to fix root pruning from preemergent applications. Idea is that the grass takes root in the sand rather than the dirt and pre. Prodiamine is not the worst thing as far as root pruning is concerned. From mildest to worst. Prodiamine<Dithiopyr<Pendimethalin<Oryzalin<Indaziflam. The last 3 named I will only apply to well established Zoysia. Zoysia has the most deep rhizomes out of all of the warm season grasses.


I read one of your posts where you were talking about sand capping, and that's where I picked up the term from. I'm waiting for my soil tests to come back to see where I'm at with my nutrients, pH and OM, and will plan accordingly when it comes time to make those adjustments. Let's say that I need to adjust my pH(I probably will), would it be wise to apply lime once I get my sand put down, or afterwards?


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Honestly the best way is to get to know your equipment and routine, and practice with something like humic acid that won't damage turf if applied in any reasonable amount.

The tip / spray rate / speed calculations are usually too far off from reality when applying to a large area by hand. Different story if you have mechanized equipment that can move at a constant speed, maintain constant pressure in the system, have a uniform spray pattern from being constantly held at the right height, and what not. Even with my equipment and regular use of it, it's hard to get exactly one tank applied to one area. When walking a large area it's even more difficult.

Better to apply less AI in more volume and go over it multiple times. It's hard even with mechanized equipment. Plan for smaller amounts to be applied at a time so you are less likely to overshoot. You'll get more uniform coverage with multiple passes anyways.


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Better to apply less AI in more volume and go over it multiple times. It's hard even with mechanized equipment. Plan for smaller amounts to be applied at a time so you are less likely to overshoot. You'll get more uniform coverage with multiple passes anyways.


+1 ....and make those multiple passes perpendicular to each other.


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## Reel Low Dad (Jun 1, 2017)

@Tellycoleman I just plugged one spot to fill in some of my bare areas and noticed the new growth peeled right off the soil as I ejected the plug. Similar to what you were describing. Looks like I need to promote root growth. Time to research.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Hey @Tellycoleman, I was thinking that you and I are kinda in the same boat, where there's a lot of leggy stolons, except you're working with more established crowns, and mine are recovering from the winter. I had to put down a split app of Prodiamine this spring, and I'm getting a lot of stolons that aren't tacking down too. I'm planning on throwing down a lot of sand, and think that it might do you some good too to give those stolons something to grab onto. Think "putting green" where they have huge sand caps... Works for them, why not us?


This is an awesome idea. Just wish you would have thought of it a month ago when it wasnt 95 degrees outside.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Hey, we got cooler weather right now down here, but 2" of rain today so I can't get everything right. Lesson learned my friend?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Sand capping is one way to fix root pruning from preemergent applications. Idea is that the grass takes root in the sand rather than the dirt and pre. Prodiamine is not the worst thing as far as root pruning is concerned. From mildest to worst. Prodiamine<Dithiopyr<Pendimethalin<Oryzalin<Indaziflam. The last 3 named I will only apply to well established Zoysia. Zoysia has the most deep rhizomes out of all of the warm season grasses.
> ...


See what you need after. Only time I pay attention to OM is if it is 0 after a full growing season or else over 5%. Grass makes its own OM. Normally there is no need to add it.


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