# Costs more because??



## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

@Greendoc or anyone else that might know the answer(s) for this, but why is it that a product with the exact same active ingredients can be priced so differently just because of how they are labeled? For example, the new Dismiss NXT sells for about $125-130 for a 10oz bottle, but Spartan Charge with the same active ingredients can be had for $110/quart. I understand the products are labeled quite differently (which is another question all it's own), but is there some inactive ingredient or something about the way the product is encapsulated or suspended that would necessitate the much higher prices? Azoxystrobin is another AI that I have found this to be true where some products are labeled for trees and not lawns, but can be had for about 1/2 price.


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## Cman (May 4, 2018)

I had the same question when I was looking for Heritage vs Strobin I believe. It appeared they were the same active ingredients.


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## DTCC_Turf (May 26, 2018)

Edit: agriculture trade names are always way less expensive than turf trade names. I imagine because at the end of the day, fruits and veggies are more important than someone's lawn.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Spammage said:


> @Greendoc or anyone else that might know the answer(s) for this, but why is it that a product with the exact same active ingredients can be priced so differently just because of how they are labeled? For example, the new Dismiss NXT sells for about $125-130 for a 10oz bottle, but Spartan Charge with the same active ingredients can be had for $110/quart. I understand the products are labeled quite differently (which is another question all it's own), but is there some inactive ingredient or something about the way the product is encapsulated or suspended that would necessitate the much higher prices? Azoxystrobin is another AI that I have found this to be true where some products are labeled for trees and not lawns, but can be had for about 1/2 price.


When a chemical goes off patent other manufacturers will repackage it and sell it for a rediced price. The patent holder will typically have to lower its prices to compete, but it is not uncommon for the patent holder to be able to keep slightly elevated prices above the market rate due to name recognition.


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## DTCC_Turf (May 26, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Spammage said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc or anyone else that might know the answer(s) for this, but why is it that a product with the exact same active ingredients can be priced so differently just because of how they are labeled? For example, the new Dismiss NXT sells for about $125-130 for a 10oz bottle, but Spartan Charge with the same active ingredients can be had for $110/quart. I understand the products are labeled quite differently (which is another question all it's own), but is there some inactive ingredient or something about the way the product is encapsulated or suspended that would necessitate the much higher prices? Azoxystrobin is another AI that I have found this to be true where some products are labeled for trees and not lawns, but can be had for about 1/2 price.
> ...


 while this is true. It's not the case with Dismiss/Sparton Charge. Sparton Charge is just labeled for agriculture. Both are from FMC. Other examples of AG vs. Turf Trade Names being priced wildly different include Bravo/Daconil (Both chlorothalonil from Sygenta)and Previcur Flex/Banol (Both Propamocarb hydrochloride from Bayer).


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

DTCC_Turf said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Spammage said:
> ...


+1 - and this is why I'm asking. I'm pretty sure that was the case with the axoxy products I found too.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Envoke (85 grams for $250) vs Monument (25grams for $250). Both have the same CAS numbers, which I *think* means same chemical (unsure if this applies to all the ingredients or just the active - Don't we have some chemists on TLF?), but different EPA numbers which is due to the label being different for each product.


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## Ahab1997 (Jun 30, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Envoke (85 grams for $250) vs Monument (25grams for $250). Both have the same CAS numbers, which I *think* means same chemical (unsure if this applies to all the ingredients or just the active - Don't we have some chemists on TLF?), but different EPA numbers which is due to the label being different for each product.


Chemist checking in here. Yes, CAS number being the same means the active ingredient is exactly the same (even different isomers have different CAS numbers).


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Ahab1997 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > Envoke (85 grams for $250) vs Monument (25grams for $250). Both have the same CAS numbers, which I *think* means same chemical (unsure if this applies to all the ingredients or just the active - Don't we have some chemists on TLF?), but different EPA numbers which is due to the label being different for each product.
> ...


Thanks for the confirmation on the CAS number. 
My concern is the "other". I would love to use Envoke in lieu of Monument, especially if they are EXACTLY the same product both active and inactive ingredients. Is there a method to confirm whether the other ingredients are the same between both products, or can I just assume "other" to be non-damaging/inert? If so, Ware may want to change the DoMyOwn link to a place that sells Ag chemicals.


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## DTCC_Turf (May 26, 2018)

> Ware may want to change the DoMyOwn link to a place that sells Ag chemicals.


https://sprayers101.com/off-label-spraying-a-lose-lose-situation/


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

DTCC_Turf said:


> > Ware may want to change the DoMyOwn link to a place that sells Ag chemicals.
> 
> 
> https://sprayers101.com/off-label-spraying-a-lose-lose-situation/


I know there are licensed applicators here, and I'm not encouraging anyone to apply anything off-label, I just am wanting to try to understand the reasoning for the price differences.


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## DTCC_Turf (May 26, 2018)

DTCC_Turf said:


> Edit: agriculture trade names are always way less expensive than turf trade names. I imagine because at the end of the day, fruits and veggies are more important than someone's lawn.


 This is only speculation really but it just gives farmers a break while making the real money from the golf courses and lawn cnd landscape industries.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Seems like @Greendoc or @viva_oldtrafford has mentioned it has something to do with the expense of getting a product approved for use on a lawn. Or maybe I am just dreaming that.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

@Ware Not dreaming. Manufacturers have to put products through extensive safety testing. If there are known side effects from contact with treated grass. That product will not be registered for use on residential or public turf. If a product already has essential uses on fruits and vegetables, yet it is known to be hazardous to human health. That product will not be allowed for use on residential turf. If a product is potentially phytotoxic to turf while it is working and/or has a low margin of safety to the desired turf, it might not be registered for application to residential turf. Manufacturers actually do not want their products in the hands of your average lawn care operators because they are not as careful and precise as a golf applicator. That is the specific reason why Fusilade is technically not labeled for home lawns, but it is allowed on Golf and sod farm turf.

Do all of you know what a Chemlawn gun is? That is another reason why a lot of products are not labeled for home lawns. Manufacturers are rightfully afraid their product is going to be put through that device. For those of you that do not know, that is a nozzle that creates a pattern of similar volume to a watering can in front of a plastic gun with a trigger. The way this is used is the operator is supposed to be walking very fast while waving this gun back and forth, flinging drops of liquid in front of him. This sprayer produces the most piss poor coverage I can imagine. It also is extremely easy to overdose a lawn with this. The nozzle is designed to apply a gallon or more per minute at 10-15 PSI. Presumption is that the operator is running across the lawn fast enough that he covers 1000 sq ft in a minute. There is no gauge on this gun. It is nothing like the boom or single nozzle gun with the regulator before it like what I use. I do not get scolded by manufacturer's representatives because they know I am applying through a boom.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Do all of you know what a Chemlawn gun is? That is another reason why a lot of products are not labeled for home lawns. Manufacturers are rightfully afraid their product is going to be put through that device.


Isn't that typically what's put on the hose at the end of a skid sprayer? To be candid, assuming the companies aren't use a Z-spray or a permagreen, aren't most spray companies using a chemlawn gun or it's equivalent?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Spammage said:


> DTCC_Turf said:
> 
> 
> > > Ware may want to change the DoMyOwn link to a place that sells Ag chemicals.
> ...


I understand the concerns of off-label use. When I think off-label it would be using a product above it's max rates or using in a manner specifically prohibited by the label. However, for Monument and Envoke. The impression I have is that they are the EXACT same product. So, if I dump Monument into my sprayer and spray it on my lawn - in compliance with the label. If I dump Envoke (at the same rate as Monument) into my sprayer and spray it on my lawn - not in compliance with the label. Monument is 3x the cost of Envoke. That one just seems like using the label to extort people who are using the product on turf rather than to grow cotton. My mindset is - the same amount of chemical (which depending on what wrapper it comes in, is allowed to be used on a residential lawn) is getting applied no matter which name is on the product packaging.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

@Movingshrub I also wasn't discouraging anyone from applying off-label. :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Spammage said:


> @Movingshrub I also wasn't discouraging anyone from applying off-label. :thumbup:


I didn't take it as such. I'm just right there with you on wanting to understand the differences.

With that being said, I don't like paying more for the same product, from the same company, just in different packaging.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Spammage said:
> 
> 
> > @Movingshrub I also wasn't discouraging anyone from applying off-label. :thumbup:
> ...


+1,000,000


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Do all of you know what a Chemlawn gun is? That is another reason why a lot of products are not labeled for home lawns. Manufacturers are rightfully afraid their product is going to be put through that device.
> ...


Yes. They are. Works fine for Prodiamine and grub treatments. Post emergent weed controls and fungicides are a different matter.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

My understanding is that some products with the exact same active cost more for turf use (e.g. azoxystrobin) due to the potential liability if something goes wrong. Farmers aren't going to accidentally kill ornamentals or certain trees or something all over the country but if some untested plant is harmed by the product, turf guys will.

Think Imprelis. When released, Dupont believed it was a good product, but oops, it wasn't. Killed tons of high value ornamental pines (as well as others). That disaster cost Dupont a few bucks.


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## jonthepain (May 5, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Farmers aren't going to accidentally kill ornamentals or certain trees or something all over the country but if some untested plant is harmed by the product, *turf guys will.*
> 
> Think Imprelis.


I will cede that point in the case of Imprelis, however, "turf guys" typically are licensed and educated in the use of herbicides and pesticides, and have a large vested interest in not damaging their customer's plants - it could put them out of business, or worse.

I would argue that the larger manufacturer's liability would be putting something in the hands of homeowners.

I was recently in Agri Supply, and an old timer was asking me for turf advice, and midway through the conversation he admitted that he had been applying 3-way at 5 times the label rate. He actually seemed proud of the fact.

I regularly see homeowners on this site and others recommend off-label apps to each other. No "turf guy" that I know is going to risk his license by applying a pesticide off-label or recommending off label apps to homeowners.

Maybe some clueless tru-brown hose monkey, but certainly not a trained, licensed professional, whose career and reputation are on the line every day they are in the field.

I would argue that homeowners are the larger culprit in this issue.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

jonthepain said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Farmers aren't going to accidentally kill ornamentals or certain trees or something all over the country but if some untested plant is harmed by the product, *turf guys will.*
> ...


I have a neighbor who was asking me what I use on my lawn. I was explaining pre-em and post-ems to him, and application rates.

He asked me - What's to stop me from applying more? If a little is good, more is better, right?

My reply - Well, the label is Federal law, so that's on you if you want to deviate. Second, some of the chemicals will sterilize your soil and kill trees if you opted to go from 0.5oz to 2oz per acre, so, there's a reason that label gives you a limit.

In my opinion, that type of off label use, is very different than using a product at a labeled rate in a manner that happens to also target a non-labeled pest. For example, Sencor hurts Zoysia. The label says "Apply only to established Bermudagrass turf."

Using 4x the amount of MSM's recommended label to go after a labeled pest is not the same as using the labeled amount for an off label pest. Honestly, anyone who just guesses at the weeds and sprays, instead of identifying them and hoping it's a targeted plant, is risking off label use.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In the last 10 years, I have been privy to some of the product testing before a product is labeled or the label modified. That is how I found out that Tenacity and Sencor is too destructive to Zoysia to ever be suggested for selective weed control in that turf. It became apparent when Bermuda contaminated with Zoysia was treated and the Zoysia was severely damaged. Of course, the Bermuda recovers to commercially acceptable levels in 14 days. I do not deal with golf turf, however I talk quite a bit with golf people. They tell me what happens to the Zoysia contamination in the fairways and non play areas after a Sencor application. When a product is in its R&D phase, samples are given out to the Universities across the US. It is applied to the weeds and turf present at each location. The findings concerning safety to turf and control of weed species present get reported back to the manufacturers.

That statement on the Sencor label "Apply only to established Bermudagrass turf" came from testing. Other grasses with the exception of Seashore Paspalum, which did not exist as a turf type when Sencor was first being registered, could not tolerate treatment with Sencor. Later field trials have established that turf kept in golf condition can tolerate treatment with Sencor.

Pylex. A lot of people know this as an eradication agent for Bermuda growing in cool season grasses. Quite a bit of testing by golf people in Hawaii helped put usage as a selective weed control for use in Bermuda and Seashore Paspalum turf on the label. Those grasses are tolerant when tank mixed with Sencor and applied at a reduced rate vs what is used on cool season turf. The differential in severity of injury to Bermuda vs Zoysia, again established by actual field use got that put on the label. The current Pylex label has a section concerning control of Zoysia. It also has a section concerning application to Bermuda and Seashore Paspalum turf for selective weed control.

The TLDR of this is for warm season turf, unless that weed appears as a widespread problem for golf turf growing in the Southern US, that usage pattern will not appear on the product labeling. Unless that turf type is commonly used in Southern golf courses, it will not appear on a product label. I liken product labels to the US Constitution. Hard to amend unless there is a very compelling reason to do so.

I have to watch myself as well. The conditions that I apply in are more like golf fairway conditions. When I hear about rough cut, minimally fertilized, and non irrigated turf, a lot of what I am doing is risky. Bottom line is: do not expect Bayer, BASF, Syngenta, etc to replace your lawn if you are applying off label. By off label, I also include spot spraying from hand sprayers. Most product tests involve a spray boom very similar to what I normally use for application. Only differences are that I constructed the boom out of sturdy PVC pipe vs Aluminium tubing and I use an engine drive power sprayer vs the pressurized CO2 bottles.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

jonthepain said:



> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Farmers aren't going to accidentally kill ornamentals or certain trees or something all over the country but if some untested plant is harmed by the product, *turf guys will.*
> ...


I think I must not have explained what I meant. I didn't mean any desirable plant injury might be caused by the applicator. What I meant was that the product itself might kill valuable plants that the manufacturer hasn't tested on in all conceivable circumstances or over long periods of time (like Imprelis).

For farm use, if it doesn't kill the crop, that's pretty much the end of it. If, say, some of the pine trees at the edge of the field croak, they're not expensive or high value. The farmer might or might not even care that much. The product would still have to be pulled, but the manufacturer isn't looking at huge landscape replacement cost lawsuits. Maybe some payouts for the wind / snow break trees at field edges.

On residential turf, if it ends up killing a lot of valuable nearby ornamentals, the manufacturer might be on the hook to replace all of it at high costs. As remote a possibility as that may be, the manufacturer is smart to charge more for the residential use label to compensate it for the increased risk it undertakes when it's used that way.

For anyone who goes off label, the manufacturer is pretty much off the hook. A homeowner applying 5x the label rate should expect at least some dead plants, perhaps even sterilized ground for a while, and can't hold the manufacturer responsible for their own failure to follow directions as well as breaking the law.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

DuPont knew about Imprelis. At the same time they were rolling out Imprelis, they were also rolling out VM/bare ground labeled Aminocyclopyraclor. That line of products has cause collateral damage. Sprayed on a roadside in the PNW. Smoked all of the pine trees.

I hear you on damage to undesirable plants. Before these new 0.5 oz per acre products, I used to apply a lot of Banvel(4 lb per gallon Dicamba). When applied to lawns with trees in them, maximum rate was only 8 oz of concentrate per acre. If the soil was sandy, application was capped at 4 oz or not recommended at all. What is applied in an average Three Way application is equivalent to no more than 2 oz per acre of the concentrate. I saw someone smoke trees. "spot sprayed" weeds in the lawn. Applied way more than 8 oz of concentrate per acre equivalent in that spot spray. Actually applied the rate suggested to take out trees in pastures and non crop areas. Shooting a solution consisting of 1 oz per gallon under the dripline of trees and brush will kill many species.


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