# Things We've Learned The Hard Way, Volume XXI



## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

There is a mountain of learning required to turn an average, so-so lawn into one of the gems often shown on this site. Just wanted to start a thread of things we all might have learned the hard way from trial and error, My top 10:
1) Propiconazole: don't get aggressive and push past recommended amounts on the label. It can regulate growth significantly, especially when combined with TNex.
2) Speaking of regulating growth, if you are going to sand and level, it's not a great idea to spray TNex and Prop right before sanding. Wait for your lawn to come out of regulation, then sand, then regulate only after the grass has a chance to push through the sand. Otherwise you're looking at the sand for a much longer time.
3) Don't go for the cheap, easily available sand if you even think that it seems kinda rocky when dry. Once it's applied and watered in, you'll notice that all of those innocent little rocks become giant reel-dinging boulders. 
4) Spray out your PRG in the early spring. Don't even think about trying to let it die out on it's own. It can live until mid-July in southern California, and will seriously hinder your bermuda fill-in process. The P in PRG is there for a reason.
5) From an acquaintance - a bermuda lawn can survive 43x the intended application amount of TNex, but it will take at least a few months to recover (oz per acre/Per1K error on first application).
6) For bermuda grass, edge first, blow runners and mess onto the lawn, then mow with a basket. Don't mow first, then edge, then blow the edge trimmings into nearby garden beds, unless you like weeding.
7) Before trying to diagnose a fungus or disease, check first for tree roots and/or a misfiring sprinkler. 
8) I've never, ever regretted backlapping or making bedknife/reel adjustments. It used to be a once a year thing, now I do it several times per season.
9) If you are designing a backyard, pay attention to shade, and don't ever think you can grow bermuda grass in areas that are shaded most of the day.
10) If your mower is making a strange noise or feels funny, it will magically repair itself on its own exactly 0% of the time. If you think something might be wrong, shut it down and inspect everything before giving it another run.


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## Boy_meets_lawn (Sep 27, 2020)

Always read the label or your notes before mixing up a tank of whatever to double check your application.

Preventative fungicide apps are cheaper and more effective than curative


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Don't use surfactant past April in the Southeast.

Check your oil often.


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## kem5882 (Apr 30, 2020)

Speaking of things we've learned...I just learned not to use quinclorac when it's super hot out (and I shouldn't have used surfactant as @Redtwin mentions above). I do believe I did it in the morning but it still got dinged pretty good. You can clearly see my spray pattern as the outside edges of the pattern are the worst.

Sprayed it back on 6/26. Curious if I should skip my next PGR app (due in a few days) so it can grow out of the damage? Any other tips to help it recover?

It's not terrible damage but definitely doesn't look great. 😬 Thanks for any tips!


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## kem5882 (Apr 30, 2020)

kem5882 said:


> Speaking of things we've learned...I just learned not to use quinclorac when it's super hot out (and I shouldn't have used surfactant as @Redtwin mentions above). I do believe I did it in the morning but it still got dinged pretty good. You can clearly see my spray pattern as the outside edges of the pattern are the worst.
> 
> Sprayed it back on 6/26. Curious if I should skip my next PGR app (due in a few days) so it can grow out of the damage? Any other tips to help it recover?
> 
> It's not terrible damage but definitely doesn't look great. 😬 Thanks for any tips!


On the positive side...that crabgrass is definitely fried to a crisp and taken care of 😂


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## pmalecki (9 mo ago)

I wish I Skipped the McLane and went right into a used toro / JD.

I also wasted a lot of money on YouTube salesmen. Although my lawn looked decent, I now have the same results from products that cost far less.

lastly, I should have ditched the Scotts spreader way sooner in this journey.


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

kem5882 said:


> Speaking of things we've learned...I just learned not to use quinclorac when it's super hot out (and I shouldn't have used surfactant as @Redtwin mentions above). I do believe I did it in the morning but it still got dinged pretty good. You can clearly see my spray pattern as the outside edges of the pattern are the worst.
> 
> Sprayed it back on 6/26. Curious if I should skip my next PGR app (due in a few days) so it can grow out of the damage? Any other tips to help it recover?
> 
> It's not terrible damage but definitely doesn't look great. 😬 Thanks for any tips!


I sprayed Quinclorac, 2-4D with MSO yesterday and its been in the 90s here for weeks. But I also did this knowingly. This torpedo and crab grass is going one way or another. :lol:


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Don't over-fertilize unless you enjoy treating lawn disease and removing heavy thatch.

Don't believe anything you read if it disagrees with GreenDoc


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

1. Fertilizer is fertilizer, it doesn't make a difference what the name is on the bag, in the end all the grass wants is NPK and doesn't care where it comes from. There are NO magic solutions or product in a bag and most of it is marketing.

2. Buy once, cry once!! I can't tell you how many times this motto has saved me but it only really applies to equipment and NOT products you apply to your lawn. Most of my lawn equipment is close to over 10 years old and is still working just as good today as it did when I bought it. When buying chemicals always look to see if there is a "generic" version of it with the same AI as it will always be cheaper than the name brand version and work just as well.

3. Do NOT buy fertilizer online. The shipping alone will kill you and with a little leg work you can find something just as good if not better at a better price. You might have to drive a little further to get it but stock up on it so you don't have to make the trip as often, it's not like you aren't going to use it.

4. Don't put off what you can do now for later as you will be kicking yourself when later comes. Don't kick the can down the road because you don't want your lawn to look like crap for a few weeks, just rip the band aid off and get it done.

5. Your reel mower doesn't need professional sharpening every year, learn how to adjust and backlap your mower and it will be cutting paper again in no time. Also, don't forget about the bedknife as that will affect cutting performance also, refacing it will make your mower cut like new again. Homeowners don't mow as often as a golf course so there is no need to have sharpened that often.

6. Measure twice, mix once. When mixing a product you haven't used a lot before ALWAYS double check your math and measurements, NEVER ASSUME!!!

7. Just know that EVERYONE with a YouTube lawn channel is a salesman FIRST and giving advice is a by product of that. Also, if someone is giving you advice on how to care for a type of grass that they DON'T have or have never cared for, proceed with caution because they are just trying to sell more product.


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## cavince79 (Jun 18, 2019)

Darth_V8r said:


> Don't believe anything you read if it disagrees with GreenDoc


 :lol: :nod:

@viva_oldtrafford is probably a good one for that list too. Now if they disagree...


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## Gizmo (7 mo ago)

A few for first-time sod owners (like me):

*Perform a soil test BEFORE laying new sod*
Duh. Doing it right means making a bunch of holes in your lawn. It's trivial with exposed soil and much less psychologically painful than digging up your beautiful new sod. Then, condition the soil based on the test, if needed, before laying the sod.

*If possible, avoid laying dormant sod in winter*
It's a lot easier to see what you're getting quality and health-wise when it's not dormant. Also, it makes all the rules about watering sod much easier to follow. It's harder to find canonical advice about how to water new sod in winter and when it's coming out of dormancy in spring.

I had a mess of a lawn after removing a bunch of trees at m new house, basically just mud for lawn in winter. We also had a very wet winter. So my property looked awful. I decided to lay the sod in winter. It certainly looked better than the mud. If I could time travel, I'd try to find a way to hold out.


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## GAbermuda (9 mo ago)

Redtwin said:


> Don't use surfactant past April in the Southeast.


Curious about this one. Why not?


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

GAbermuda said:


> Redtwin said:
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> > Don't use surfactant past April in the Southeast.
> ...


Surfactant in high heat will really yellow the turf temporarily until it recovers.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

cavince79 said:


> Darth_V8r said:
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> 
> > Don't believe anything you read if it disagrees with GreenDoc
> ...


That would open a wormhole or something...


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

GAbermuda said:


> Redtwin said:
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> > Don't use surfactant past April in the Southeast.
> ...


Shameless plug...
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=398377#p398377


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## GAbermuda (9 mo ago)

Redtwin said:


> GAbermuda said:
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Gotcha. I'm guessing each chem is boosted by surfactant at differing rates, not to mention temp and humidity effect is probably parabolic and not linear, so a general rule of thumb to back off qty % when using surfactant would be impossible. Good tip because new sod is scheduled in two weeks for me and I had planned to always use surfactant for foliar applications. What about liquid supplements absorbed foliarly? Seems like surfactant is always a good idea in this application no matter the temperature.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Three big ones for me:

1) Treat your yard for Spring Dead Spot every fall. My yard is still recovering from the winter kill. It is worth the investment.

2) Sand levelling. Err on the side of more sand and try to evenly place the piles. I ended up running out of sand and put most of it in the back vs. the front, although that was where the deepest valleys / holes were.

3) A good / robust pre-em plan can significantly reduce or eliminate most weeds from the lawn. Even thought I still have a lot of thin areas, my pre-em program last fall and this spring has done wonders. I have had to pull any weeds or spot spray at all. I do have a few seges that popped up that I need to take care of.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

@GAbermuda I don't know if you have looked at it yet but the Bermuda Bible and the Bermuda Triangle are great starting points for learning what to apply and when. The products in the Bermuda Triangle have no temperature restrictions.


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## Highlife159 (May 19, 2021)

Don't use Specticle FLO if you have some bare spots that need to fill in. I still have two monster spots that I'm pushing like hell to get it to fill in but the stolons are having a difficult time rooting because of the SF I applied last fall and this spring. Lesson learned…


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Darth_V8r said:


> Don't over-fertilize unless you enjoy treating lawn disease and removing heavy thatch.


Care to elaborate about the disease?


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

In my case, large patch and TARR. As I started to read more posts from GreenDoc about using very low nitrogen feeding (0.25 lb/1ksf) and how he had seen lawns that were perfectly fine get ruined by well-meaning new owners over-fertilizing to get a nice dark green, I took notice. I then re-evaluated the demise of my SA lawn and how it really started after I had started fertilizing to fill in minor areas that were thin. I had large patch hit in the fall and then TARR hit the following spring. This then opened it up to a nematode infestation that I'm still dealing with. Note that when the lawn is recovering from most fungal diseases, the prevailing advice is to NOT fertilize until the disease has cleared. I don't pretend to fully understand the mechanism of how over-fertilizing leads to disease, but I definitely created a ton of work for myself. The irony is it looked absolutely stunning right before it started dying en masse.

My lawn has been healthier with NO fertilizer vs too much fertilizer. Even the areas that zoysia is taking over look better than they did for the past few years, since I stopped fertilizing altogether.

All that said, it might be different for bermuda, since you can force it to spread with N+H20. But all the others, I'll never do more than spoon-feed them going forward.


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## kem5882 (Apr 30, 2020)

Redtwin said:


> GAbermuda said:
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Yea, here's what mine looked like... using quinclorac and surfactant as mentioned in my earlier post in this thread. 😬😫 At least I didn't have to guess what was wrong with my lawn. Ha


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Another one -- It's easier to find a grass that works for your land than it is to constantly treat the land to be suitable for the grass you think you want.


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## Rob_The_Nailer (11 mo ago)

pmalecki said:


> I also wasted a lot of money on YouTube salesmen. Although my lawn looked decent, I now have the same results from products that cost far less.


As a newbie in my first growing season, I am investing a lot of time on YouTube (and here) trying to learn best practices.

Can you please share which YouTube content creators you are referring to when you say you were overpaying for products? Which specific products are more expensive and which are a better value?

I'm investing a lot of money in my lawn, if I can get the same results with less money; I'd like to know how to achieve this.

Thank you in advance, loving TLF and the education I'm getting.


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## Bombers (Jul 14, 2020)

Rob_The_Nailer said:


> pmalecki said:
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> > I also wasted a lot of money on YouTube salesmen. Although my lawn looked decent, I now have the same results from products that cost far less.
> ...


All of them really. Sure they work great, but are overpriced due to their names attached and shipping 50 lbs bags. Even if shipping is ''free'', the cost inflated to account for that. NPK is NPK and micros are micros. You just have to do some homework and find numbers and % close to your favorite YT product. You can achieve great results with big box and no-name feed store products. The cheapest way is getting a soil test and buying bulk of what your soil needs.


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## GAbermuda (9 mo ago)

Bombers said:


> Rob_The_Nailer said:
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a great thread would be for posters to post a particular premium product they use and other posters reply with lower priced alternatives. Hell, I'll start it and maintain the results and links on the first post, just not sure which forum it should live on.....or if something like this already exists


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## Rob_The_Nailer (11 mo ago)

GAbermuda said:


> Bombers said:
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I would certainly appreciate a thread like this.

Maybe links to good products that can be found at common retailers (HD, Lowes, Wal-Mart, Tractor Supply, etc.).

I know I can do all the research, but I'd also like to avoid re-inventing the wheel and see what I can learn from others that may have lessons to teach.


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

Spraying is money. Get the cheapest N and nutrients that you need and weigh/mix to the ratio that you need. 
My lawn does not need P. 
My lawn eats K and N. I can put a million pounds of Potassium in my yard and I would still be low on potassium. 
I don't spray anything else but T-Nex and Pre-emergent. 
I think the soil amendment stuff is a hoax too. 
N-P-K -- once in a while I will spray something with all the other micro-nutrients in it.


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## pmalecki (9 mo ago)

Rob_The_Nailer said:


> pmalecki said:
> 
> 
> > I also wasted a lot of money on YouTube salesmen. Although my lawn looked decent, I now have the same results from products that cost far less.
> ...


I purchased all of the Anderson products for several months. I would say that they all worked good with the exception of "Super Juice". Complete waste of money from my personal experience. I do think PGF complete, and PGF Balance are excellent products. They helped transform my lawn from what it looked like two years ago with a commercial lawn service. Even dug in and bought the Mclane reel mower. You probably figured out the YouTube channel I'm referring to.

That being said, my lawn looks just as good using Lesco / Sta Green fertilizer from home depot or Lowes. Someone on here put it best, spend money to buy good equipment and not on the big name fertilizer products.

One thing I've learned is to look at the Active Ingredients in some of the big name products, then find the same ingredients in generic brand products and save a few bucks.

I suppose like many it was part of the process. Eventually I found this forum and have learned a ton.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Darth_V8r said:


> In my case, large patch and TARR. As I started to read more posts from GreenDoc about using very low nitrogen feeding (0.25 lb/1ksf) and how he had seen lawns that were perfectly fine get ruined by well-meaning new owners over-fertilizing to get a nice dark green, I took notice. I then re-evaluated the demise of my SA lawn and how it really started after I had started fertilizing to fill in minor areas that were thin. I had large patch hit in the fall and then TARR hit the following spring. This then opened it up to a nematode infestation that I'm still dealing with. Note that when the lawn is recovering from most fungal diseases, the prevailing advice is to NOT fertilize until the disease has cleared. I don't pretend to fully understand the mechanism of how over-fertilizing leads to disease, but I definitely created a ton of work for myself. The irony is it looked absolutely stunning right before it started dying en masse.
> 
> My lawn has been healthier with NO fertilizer vs too much fertilizer. Even the areas that zoysia is taking over look better than they did for the past few years, since I stopped fertilizing altogether.
> 
> All that said, it might be different for bermuda, since you can force it to spread with N+H20. But all the others, I'll never do more than spoon-feed them going forward.


Now thats interesting. I wonder how that plays out with Bermuda. Thanks for that tidbit


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## ianreelmows (8 mo ago)

pmalecki said:


> I wish I Skipped the McLane and went right into a used toro / JD.
> 
> I also wasted a lot of money on YouTube salesmen. Although my lawn looked decent, I now have the same results from products that cost far less.
> 
> lastly, I should have ditched the Scotts spreader way sooner in this journey.


Which YouTube salesmen got you? I've slowly come to realize the same thing for myself.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

ianreelmows said:


> pmalecki said:
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> > I wish I Skipped the McLane and went right into a used toro / JD.
> ...


The "Super Juice" comment didn't give that away? 

He's got a PHD in BS is all I'm going to say :thumbup:


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## ianreelmows (8 mo ago)

Mightyquinn said:


> ianreelmows said:
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> > pmalecki said:
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Ahhh yes, I didn't see your reply to the other guy until now. Yeah, super juice got me too. I agree on the PGF ferts being quality though. I am trying out dirt booster after doing my own research into mycorrhizal fungi. I will say I've spread some on spots that have been very thin or bare for a year and I've noticed new growth in the areas after 2 weeks with some heat and rain. I had a piece of sod completely die this spring and after I applied dirt booster it has filled in probably 50-60%.

But yes, I've learned to watch his videos with an entertainment mindset and take the "science" and "knowledge" with a grain of salt followed by my own research first.

It does make me wander what the golf course looks like that he was supposedly a superintendent at for a long time….


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

ianreelmows said:


> It does make me wander what the golf course looks like that he was supposedly a superintendent at for a long time….


As far as I know, he was never a Superintendent at a golf course, he just said he "worked" at a golf course which could mean a hundred different things. He's a salesman through and through and knows how to word things to make you think something that isn't a 100% accurate.


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

He edits the comments and deletes comments that oppose his point of view. &#128513;


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

as far as Superjuice goes, this is the best demo of it I have ever seen. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWHFOwob_kY&t=41s


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## BermudaBoy (Jun 27, 2019)

rjw0283 said:


> as far as Superjuice goes, this is the best demo of it I have ever seen.


This never gets old.


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## ianreelmows (8 mo ago)

rjw0283 said:


> as far as Superjuice goes, this is the best demo of it I have ever seen.


Dear god I can't believe I never ran across this lmao


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

How have I never seen this video lmao. I've been doing it wrong all along!


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## GAbermuda (9 mo ago)

Humbert810 said:


> How have I never seen this video lmao. I've been doing it wrong all along!


Me too. Perfect parody. Would have been even better he pulled out a Mclane and mowed some snow and said machines under 25" are worthless


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Humbert810 said:


> GAbermuda said:
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> > Redtwin said:
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I've never experienced this. Might be a lack of follow-up/immediate watering that soil surfactants need that could cause this. But if you wash it off immediately and continue watering at least 1/4 inch, I don't see any possible way a soil surfactant would yellow grass. I'm also unclear on how its impact could vary geographically. Interesting point, nonetheless. I'm sure mileage may vary by application method/routine.


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## GAbermuda (9 mo ago)

Austinite said:


> Humbert810 said:
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He is talking about adding surfactant for foliar herbicide applications (I think)


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

I have watched that video probably 6 times and never noticed he had a superjuice ticker on the bottom everytime he said Superjuice.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

GAbermuda said:


> He is talking about adding surfactant for foliar herbicide applications (I think)


You are correct. It was for a herbicide so not effective if immediately washed off.


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

Austinite said:


> Humbert810 said:
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Not sure why you would water anything in that requires a surfactant. If you are applying with surfactant I'm assuming you want the product to stick to the leaf blades. In most herbicide cases you don't want to wash anything away until it has dried...


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Humbert810 said:


> Austinite said:
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Soil surfactants require immediate watering.


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

Austinite said:


> Humbert810 said:
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Sorry I missed that you were talking about soil surfactants. I believe the OP was referring to MSO or a non-ionic surfactant for herbicide application.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

I'll add my list..........

1. Don't apply insecticides and fungicides curatively. Always Preventative.

2. Never plant a Crape Myrtle close to the house.

3. Don't stop scalping until you see raw dirt and no grass.

4. Go easy on the peatmoss. Too much = Fungus nightmare.

5. Forget all Herbicide surfactants, use Prime Source Duo Stick only.

6. Humic, biochar, Mirimichi Green, etc.... don't waste money. Stick to NPK and Iron.

7. Avoid Organic-only fertilizers.

8. Use thin card-stock to check reel sharpness, not paper.

9. Think long and hard before you choose to install gravel into your landscaping.

10. Stop buying mowers when you don't have room for them!


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Humbert810 said:


> Austinite said:
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No worries. I think I zipped through the thread and may have missed the herbicide part. At any rate, that certainly makes sense! Thanks!


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## Twodollarblue (May 26, 2020)

Austinite said:


> 8. Use thin card-stock to check reel sharpness, not paper.


@Austinite would you elaborate on your preference for card stock vs paper (assuming more realistic to a blade of grass), and what weight/thickness card stock you use. Did a quick lookup to buy some and there are many options.


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## Gizmo (7 mo ago)

> 9. Think long and hard before you choose to install gravel into your landscaping.


@Austinite I second this. Gravel is beautiful. I love how sleek it can look (I like modern vibes), but there are a lot of things I missed when I designed by back yard. At the top of my list is that you can't easily move a heavy reel mower across the gravel. Oops. My bad. Now I lay down 1/2" thick plywood boards across by heavy stone/pea gravel walkway to get to the front yard. Clean up can be a b*tch too. A lot of positives to name, but not for this thread.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Twodollarblue said:


> Austinite said:
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> > 8. Use thin card-stock to check reel sharpness, not paper.
> ...


Sure thing. I tried several paper weights but found that 8pt cardstock works best. So I use that instead of thin paper. Most folks think of a single blade of grass, which is super thin. But especially if you are using a reel mower, and applying PGR, chances are your grass is thick, dense and bunched up together like a mat. The reel grabs multiple blades at a time, more blades to be much thicker than a piece of paper.

Allett engineers will tell you that you do not want to hear the reel against the bedknife. It should sound very smooth as if its spinning in the air. Lee with Reel Rollers will tell you the same. He uses a business card to confirm cut quality.

There are obviously some other factors in cut quality, but for me, getting the reel slightly away from the bedknife resulted in 3 noticeable things:

1. I get more clippings on the first run. In the past, my second and 3rd run would still be pulling clippings. So now I am not having to mow over and over each time.

2. The surface of the grass is smoother. Very noticeable when sun hits it, or at night when cars drive by and light up the lawn. In fact, I had more people stop and ask if it was real grass, that's how much difference it made for me.

3. No grind. That grind is annoying and restrictive. Grass is super thin, once it's whipped against the bedknife it's gone. And no, there are no shredded tips, it cuts like scissors every time.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

Austinite said:


> 10. Stop buying mowers when you don't have room for them!


This one is sooo hard. I have two walk-behinds and a rider but I'd realllly like a reel mower now. I just scalped and leveled a portion of my Zoysia using my Toro Recycler on the absolute lower than lowest setting and I think I really like it.


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## Twodollarblue (May 26, 2020)

@Austinite thanks for letting me inside your brain. I have a new bedknife to put on this week so this helps tremendously. Thanks again.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

quattljl said:


> Austinite said:
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> 
> > 10. Stop buying mowers when you don't have room for them!
> ...


Ill trade you a Swardman 2.0 for your Toro Recycler! You just have to get the engine running again.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

@Austinite I like my Toro Recycler the best of all my mowers so it's staying lol. I have no idea what kind of reel mower I would want, who makes a good one, the differences in price points, etc. so it's something I'll really have to look into when/if I get more serious about it.


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## jt1068 (7 mo ago)

ianreelmows said:


> Mightyquinn said:
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i havent seen much difference with dirtbooster on my lawn. I tried the dirtbooster/black cow combination on flowers this year and the difference with / without was definitely noticeable. the two pots were treated as identically as I could make them! i wish i had just put some black cow only on some though.. something for next year!


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Austinite said:


> I'll add my list..........
> 
> 4. Go easy on the peatmoss. Too much = Fungus nightmare.
> 
> ...


I'm curious about this one. I had always read to apply peat moss to TREAT fungus. Is this a some is good, more is not better scenario?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Darth_V8r said:


> Austinite said:
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> > I'll add my list..........
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Holds moisture. Objective of disease management is to reduce moisture. There is a thought that peat moss will reduce pH. Therefore reducing one of the aggravating factors towards Take All Patch. More effective to actively acidify. Peat moss is the oversimplifed easy button, yet only partially true way to acidify.


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