# Planting TTTF in the next 5 days



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

I'm in the northwest part of Illinois, zone 5a. I purchased TTTF seeds and it will arrive maybe this weekend. Weather forefasts specifically first frost happens in October 15. However, for the past 3-4 years, it happens around Oct 20-25. Anyways, should I risk planting the sod quality TTTF seeds or should I wait in spring? If spring, if I remember correctly, they say last frost date is May 15 but I have not experienced that past 4-5 years. So if spring, when I should I drop seeds? Almost forgot to say, it's a new renovation since I lost my kbg lawn. I'll be spreading it at 8lbs/1,000 sqft based from my research as well as the info the store gave me.

Thank you.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Purdue says you're past the optimum time:
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-3-w.pdf
As does Illinois extension service:
https://web.extension.illinois.edu/lawntalk/planting/planting_a_new_lawn.cfm

Both articles discuss spring seeding and dormant seeding. It's a fairly small lawn so I would try seeding now and see what happens. If it doesn't establish, you could try a dormant seeding. Another alternative, which you ought to at least check into, is sod.


----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

Give it a shot. Post pics.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Will do but i just found out half an hour ago after raking that I have tons of mature grubs! OMG! My extended drought assumption was wrong. I'm going to buy a 24 hr grub killer. Is that good?


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> Purdue says you're past the optimum time:
> https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-3-w.pdf
> As does Illinois extension service:
> https://web.extension.illinois.edu/lawntalk/planting/planting_a_new_lawn.cfm
> ...


WOW, I'm interested about dormant seeding. Those are awesome links!

Thank you for sharing!


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Article on grubs:
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/how_to_choose_and_when_to_apply_grub_control_products_for_your_lawn


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Thanks a lot! Great document!


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> Purdue says you're past the optimum time:
> https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-3-w.pdf
> As does Illinois extension service:
> https://web.extension.illinois.edu/lawntalk/planting/planting_a_new_lawn.cfm
> ...


Check UPS tracking. My seeds are arriving this Saturday, Sept 26. It's small about 1600 sqft area.


----------



## wino_tim (Jan 3, 2020)

If you have an entirely KBG lawn, it might make more sense to push it hard with fertilizer - see the Fall Nitrogen Blitz - and hope it fills in. If it doesn't you could always do a Spring Blitz.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

wino_tim said:


> If you have an entirely KBG lawn, it might make more sense to push it hard with fertilizer - see the Fall Nitrogen Blitz - and hope it fills in. If it doesn't you could always do a Spring Blitz.


I really think 85% of my KBG lawn died. It's because all of my neighbors' lawns have already greened up 3 weeks ago. Mine is still brown. Also, the dead grass detaches easily from the dirt. A dormant grass doesn't do that. Yes, I have an entire KBG lawn. I really want to try TTTF. I read it's more drought and heat tolerant and I think it's true. It's because I saw small patches of fescue on my lawn that are very green. Please see picture. It's from my first lawn, the one put down by the builder. I don't like it because blades aren't as soft as kbg. However, the tttf varieties I purchased has finer blades. This is what is arriving this Saturday - https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100003/ss1000-tall-fescue-blend I'm hoping the blades will be different from the picture I attached. The dead grass around it is my sod quality KBG lawn. It looks like I sprayed RoundUp to it, LOL.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

grassbladepeeper said:


> wino_tim said:
> 
> 
> > If you have an entirely KBG lawn, it might make more sense to push it hard with fertilizer - see the Fall Nitrogen Blitz - and hope it fills in. If it doesn't you could always do a Spring Blitz.
> ...


What planting zone are you in? If 6 or higher, I would get that seed down ASAP. If 5 or lower, you are probably too late. Enter your zipcode here to find out:

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/

The advantage to fescue is it germinates and establishes faster than KBG. FWIW, underdeveloped cool season grass tolerates cold better than heat and I wouldn't worry about light frosts. I planted tall fescue 11 days ago. We had a few nights here around freezing and I'm seeing healthy sprouts now.

The newer turf-type tall fescues (TTTF) are generally finer bladed than the older KY-31. However different cultivars are bred for different qualities - blade width, color, heat and drought tolerance, etc., and you probably find something that shines in one or two categories or does all of them just OK.

If you are too late now, I personally would not bother with spring planting and wait and do a late summer seeding. Unless the seeding area has some afternoon shade, a spring seeding will have a rough time in the heat of summer unless you are prepared to baby it all summer long.


----------



## halby (Jun 8, 2020)

Seeding large areas in the spring is going to be brutal on you mentally and physically. You will have major weed contention and you will have to commit the babying that areas ALL summer. Ask me how I know lol. Personally I think you are passed the window right now to have much success. TTTF can take up to 14 days to germinate, you could have a frost in 14 days from now. A light frost wont kill things but it can really slow down progress. I seeded 9/6 in SE michigan, and only waiting that late because I was using Perennial RYE.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> What planting zone are you in? If 6 or higher, I would get that seed down ASAP. If 5 or lower, you are probably too late. Enter your zipcode here to find out:
> 
> https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/
> 
> ...


It says i'm in zone 5b. The reason I wanted to risk is because for the past 3 years, it's been warmer. From one of the articles above, it says Sept 1-30 for southern Illinois. OUCH! I'm in northwest. When I did renovated my lawn 10 years ago, I dropped seeds August 15 and it was a success. It's just that it's too long of a wait for August 2021.

fyi, I bought an active grub killer this morning. I continued raking the dead grass and wow, there's tons of mature grub about an inch long. I had a dead spot last year in front and my neighbor approached me and said _*"I know why you have a dead spot there, it was killed by grubs. Grab me a shovel and I'll show you.*_" He cuts the grass and dirt deep and lifted the it. We didn't see anything. LOL! With my findings few days ago, I now know he was only assuming and I think he thinks that grubs live 6-10inches deep. LOL 🤣. Grubs just lives half inch to 1 inch deep, just a little below the roots. He saw me today while I was raking my lawn. He didn't bother to come and ask why I'm pulling out the dead grass. His lawn is also dead.

Do you think I'll be happy with TTTF? It looks very nice on youtube and on pictures.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

halby said:


> Seeding large areas in the spring is going to be brutal on you mentally and physically. You will have major weed contention and you will have to commit the babying that areas ALL summer. Ask me how I know lol. Personally I think you are passed the window right now to have much success. TTTF can take up to 14 days to germinate, you could have a frost in 14 days from now. A light frost wont kill things but it can really slow down progress. I seeded 9/6 in SE michigan, and only waiting that late because I was using Perennial RYE.


I won't plant in spring. It's going to be a battle between letting young grass grown and killing weeds or applying pre-em like you said. I wasn't really planning on doing a renovation. I love my kbg lawn but also tired of seeing it look ugly during summer. I really assumed it was only dormant about a month ago. I got worried when my neighbors' lawns have already green up 3+ weeks ago and mine hasn't. Also, pulling the color paper bag grass was very easy which means the grass is really dead. I did see 1 to 5 green blades underneath the dead grass I removed on a 5x5 sqft area. That's going to take 2-3 years before it spreads.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

In the worst case (seeding is a failure), you will likely get weeds to grow. They are at least roots in the ground, something to prevent erosion, and are green. You can have mowed weeds next year until time to renovate in late summer. Mowed weeds is what a lot of people have for a lawn.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> In the worst case (seeding is a failure), you will likely get weeds to grow. They are at least roots in the ground, something to prevent erosion, and are green. You can have mowed weeds next year until time to renovate in late summer. Mowed weeds is what a lot of people have for a lawn.


Yup, that's what I'm planning to do. Thanks!


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

grassbladepeeper said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > What planting zone are you in? If 6 or higher, I would get that seed down ASAP. If 5 or lower, you are probably too late. Enter your zipcode here to find out:
> ...


The depth of the grubs depends on the time of year. They are shallow when they hatch and start feeding, but travel deeper as we get into cooler weather, then overwinter quite deep. In spring, they come back up and feed on more roots before pupating and becoming adult beetles.

I find grubs too, but only about 1-2 per sq ft of soil. Adult Japanese beetles were more of a problem for me feeding on leaves. I think my lawn failure had more to do with other things including user error - too many seeds, not enough organic matter. Not to mention a hot, dry summer didn't help either.

Whether you will be happy with TTTF depends on the cultivars. Unless specified otherwise, most as I said before try to do everything just OK. Some mightstate in description things like "thinner blades and deep green color" while others might state "extra tolerant of heat and drought". My guess is that the ones marketed for Southern or transition lawns will probably be thicker bladed and lighter green while the ones marketed for Northern lawns will be just the opposite. All will look more like lawn grass than KY-31.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Cool info on grubs. I will make sure to stick a schedule on the wall right in front of where I always use my computer. I'll put 2 applications of grub killers next year(preventer and active killers, different dates).

Guess what? It will be 80s above the whole week next week! WOOHOOO! LOL! It really wasn't like this many years ago. Usually around this time, it's already in the mid 60s. It feel like it's 80 right now.

I finished removing 20ftx20ft wide of dead grass. Dirt is exposed. I have 10ft x 20ft and 5ft x 10ft left to work on tonight. I'll only be doing it on the lawn near the front of the house. I can see the dirt on hell-strip, I don't think I need to expose it more especially I'll cover it with peatmoss. I'm super exciting dropping the seeds tomorrow. I hope UPS arrives around noon.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

grassbladepeeper said:


> Guess what? It will be 80s above the whole week next week! WOOHOOO! LOL! It really wasn't like this many years ago. Usually around this time, it's already in the mid 60s. It feel like it's 80 right now.


Of course warmer means you need to be more vigilant about watering. Nope, you can't win. :|


----------



## Butter (Nov 14, 2017)

@grassbladepeeper Although I'm a couple zones south of you(Kansas 6a) my first frost date is the same, October 15. Kansas State recommends seeding TTTF from September 1 to October 15. They also say that you can seed TTTF later but you really have to keep it watered for good results. I have seeded a lot right up to the 15th with great results and later with pretty good results depending on the weather. If you seed this weekend you'll have 3 weeks before a potential first frost. You should be able to have some nice fescue in 3 weeks. I say seed it. Its along time until next fall. Good luck!


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Butter said:


> @grassbladepeeper Although I'm a couple zones south of you(Kansas 6a) my first frost date is the same, October 15. Kansas State recommends seeding TTTF from September 1 to October 15. They also say that you can seed TTTF later but you really have to keep it watered for good results. I have seeded a lot right up to the 15th with great results and later with pretty good results depending on the weather. If you seed this weekend you'll have 3 weeks before a potential first frost. You should be able to have some nice fescue in 3 weeks. I say seed it. Its along time until next fall. Good luck!


Great info! I'm seeding it tomorrow. I actually told my wife that if it doesn't make it, I'll just buy it again. I already told her all the things that can happen. She's good with my plans!


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Butter said:


> @grassbladepeeper Although I'm a couple zones south of you(Kansas 6a) my first frost date is the same, October 15. Kansas State recommends seeding TTTF from September 1 to October 15. They also say that you can seed TTTF later but you really have to keep it watered for good results. I have seeded a lot right up to the 15th with great results and later with pretty good results depending on the weather. If you seed this weekend you'll have 3 weeks before a potential first frost. You should be able to have some nice fescue in 3 weeks. I say seed it. Its along time until next fall. Good luck!


Ditto throw the seed down this weekend and hope the weather works in your favor. Worst case is you have to throw more seed down in the Spring but at least part of the lawn will be established.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

ksturfguy said:


> Butter said:
> 
> 
> > @grassbladepeeper Although I'm a couple zones south of you(Kansas 6a) my first frost date is the same, October 15. Kansas State recommends seeding TTTF from September 1 to October 15. They also say that you can seed TTTF later but you really have to keep it watered for good results. I have seeded a lot right up to the 15th with great results and later with pretty good results depending on the weather. If you seed this weekend you'll have 3 weeks before a potential first frost. You should be able to have some nice fescue in 3 weeks. I say seed it. Its along time until next fall. Good luck!
> ...


Will do. I'm prepared. I'll definitely take pictures and also create a youtube account so I can show what I've been doing, hahaha 🤣


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Failed to drop the seeds because it was extremely windy plus I wasn't sure what settings to use on my drop spreader accugreen 2000 if putting 8 lbs/1,000 sqft. Any ideas folks?


----------



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

grassbladepeeper said:


> Failed to drop the seeds because it was extremely windy plus I wasn't sure what settings to use on my drop spreader accugreen 2000 if putting 8 lbs/1,000 sqft. Any ideas folks?


Wind didn't matter for a drop spreader. Measure the seed, go to a small setting do multiple passes. Golf you want to get an idea take a look at any Scott's seed bag, should have the rate. I would still go half that and do atleast 2 passes.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Still seeding TTTF and PR here, but will not be doing much with TTTF soon. I feel like even Ryegrass should be seeded by early Oct in most northern areas. In a warm Fall, if you get one, it works well even that late. KY-31 could probably work too, but most aren't using that.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

uts said:


> grassbladepeeper said:
> 
> 
> > Failed to drop the seeds because it was extremely windy plus I wasn't sure what settings to use on my drop spreader accugreen 2000 if putting 8 lbs/1,000 sqft. Any ideas folks?
> ...


That's what I'll do. 2-passes! Great idea about Scott's seed bag!!!


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Stupid weather change, it will be averaging 65 next week instead of 80s. Damn, that changed quickly!
Anyways, I found the settings. When I renovated my lawn 10 years ago, I divided the settings into 2 so I can do 2 passes, different directions. I'll make it again like that.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Looks like I was looking at another state's weather forecast few days ago rather than my city, bummer 

This is what I have for the next 10 days starting today.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

grassbladepeeper said:


> Looks like I was looking at another state's weather forecast few days ago rather than my city, bummer
> 
> This is what I have for the next 10 days starting today.


No freezing temps, so you will be fine! Cooler means less moisture evaporation, so less watering.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Air temps are not that important, soil temps in the top inches is what really matters. As temps keep dropping, the chance of success keeps dropping too. Of course success is hard to measure in an overseed vs a renovation.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

g-man said:


> Air temps are not that important, soil temps in the top inches is what really matters. As temps keep dropping, the chance of success keeps dropping too. Of course success is hard to measure in an overseed vs a renovation.


Got it. It was warm today. It felt like 70-75ish. I completed dropping the seeds and starter fertilizer.

Check out the rain tonight in my area, I hope I won't get any puddles. I ran out of peat moss and it started raining. Glad the rain isn't strong right now. I didn't get a chance to roll it too. I'll roll it tomorrow noon.


----------



## Sayn3ver (Sep 12, 2020)

Honestly I myself due to work got a late start this fall (was working 7 days a week due to overtime) but am in 6b I believe. I dropped seed two weeks ago. A blend of 90/10 TTTF/KBG.

Now just diving into this myself and am new here, I'd honestly say you can take a larger gamble with the tttf yourself. If you spent good money on good weed free seed and it won't hurt to rebuy if it fails put it down. Mine sprouted in about 6-7 days with highs in the 70's and overnights in the 45-55f temps.

Obviously sprouting isn't the same as established or tough enough for winter necessarily but I like yourself, have seen above average temps over the last 4-5 falls in September and October. I know this because I work construction outside and distinctly remember wearing t shirts only well into Novembe. In addition, the delayed striped bass migration the last few years also would indicate for my area an extended fall growing season here in southern nj.

Anyways, considering your current temps you may want to consider just getting down some nice perrenial rye grass as a cover. That'll come up in 5 days ish and be ready to mow sooner than tttf.

Better a turf grass you know than weeds you don't.

If it survives winter it'll probably hang around long enough to get torched mid to late next summer just in time for a proper overseed and or full Reno next year.

At least it's a turf grass and will be green in the spring and early summer.

Just something to consider.

I did something similar this may when my late February/early March grade work got pushed back until may due to covid and weather. Planted some cheap contractor mix to prevent erosion and had mowed crabgrass, nutsedge, plantains, etc until I nuked it this fall. Ugly as sin but my yard and grade remained in tact and gave me time to allow the inch or so of compost I had top dressed to begin breaking down and begin amending my clayish soil.

So while your situation isn't ideal consider taking the missed window as a time to maybe throw some rye down now and use the spring and summer to ammend the soil (a soil test would be good especially if your lawn in struggling right next to your neighbors lawn).


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Sayn3ver said:


> Honestly I myself due to work got a late start this fall (was working 7 days due to overtime)* but am in 6b I believe.*


You can find your zone by entering your zipcode here:

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/Default.aspx

https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/PHZMWeb/

I'm in MA zone 6A and just seeded some tall fescue 4 days ago.


----------



## Sayn3ver (Sep 12, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> Sayn3ver said:
> 
> 
> > Honestly I myself due to work got a late start this fall (was working 7 days due to overtime)* but am in 6b I believe.*
> ...


Thanks. I'm in a mixed zone. Southern nj is listed as 6a, 6b and 7a depending on exactly where as the shore areas, Delaware river and the colder interior all perform slightly different.

I'm typically 6b/7a depending on which map one looks at.

I'm outside of Philadelphia and was working at the shore during the winter one year. I would leave my house at 5am at 32f on my cars thermometer and watch the temp drop 10 degrees driving through the middle of the state (pineland reserve, Mays landing areas and of course the Vineland areas) only to end up with a temp 5-10 degrees warmer than 32f at the shore when I arrived an hour later.

Of course then I could also drive two hours west to the Poconos and they could have snow while we are in the mid 40f's.


----------



## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Sayn3ver said:


> Honestly I myself due to work got a late start this fall (was working 7 days a week due to overtime) but am in 6b I believe. I dropped seed two weeks ago. A blend of 90/10 TTTF/KBG.
> 
> Now just diving into this myself and am new here, I'd honestly say you can take a larger gamble with the tttf yourself. If you spent good money on good weed free seed and it won't hurt to rebuy if it fails put it down. Mine sprouted in about 6-7 days with highs in the 70's and overnights in the 45-55f temps.
> 
> ...


That's good advice especially like the PRG seed idea. Quick germination by late summer next year it will most likely collapse then do the renovation you want.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

Sayn3ver said:


> Honestly I myself due to work got a late start this fall (was working 7 days a week due to overtime) but am in 6b I believe. I dropped seed two weeks ago. A blend of 90/10 TTTF/KBG.
> 
> Now just diving into this myself and am new here, I'd honestly say you can take a larger gamble with the tttf yourself. If you spent good money on good weed free seed and it won't hurt to rebuy if it fails put it down. Mine sprouted in about 6-7 days with highs in the 70's and overnights in the 45-55f temps.


I did a paper towel test and it's been 24 hrs now. The seeds are starting to swell. Looks like the seeds I got are good. On the label it says "good until March or May of 2021". I think I only have 1 pound left. I'll just buy again next year.



> Obviously sprouting isn't the same as established or tough enough for winter necessarily but I like yourself, have seen above average temps over the last 4-5 falls in September and October. I know this because I work construction outside and distinctly remember wearing t shirts only well into Novembe. In addition, the delayed striped bass migration the last few years also would indicate for my area an extended fall growing season here in southern nj.
> 
> Anyways, considering your current temps you may want to consider just getting down some nice perrenial rye grass as a cover. That'll come up in 5 days ish and be ready to mow sooner than tttf.
> 
> ...


I was shocked to what I saw while I was dropping the seeds. I saw some tiny grass blades coming out. It looks like my Midnight II/Emblem KBG lawn didn't really die. It just went into an super uber sleep. It's just waking up now, LOL. All my neighbors' lawns already turned green more than 3 weeks ago. So I wasn't sure how much kbg lawn survived from extended drought and grubs. I can't wait to see it in few more weeks. I'll keep you posted folks.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Sayn3ver said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Sayn3ver said:
> ...


So you're in the Delaware Valley. You should see the temp swings where I live. I'm in the Connecticut River Valley where temps are comparatively warm for MA. It can be 50F at my house and I can drive 45 minutes NW and be skiing in the Berkshires!

Back on topic, seeding is usually OK around here up until Oct. 1. I'm pretty sure you're OK to seed fescues and ryegrasses where you are. KBG would be hit or miss, but hey, if it's germinating now, should be OK.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

OMG, crap! I hope my 4 days old seed that I dropped last Sunday will survive 😥

It will be in 65-70s in mid October.

It's the 4th day today and I'm sure by this time, the seeds I dropped outside have already opened since I did a papertowel test and seeds opened in 60th hr.



https://www.jonathangreen.com/resources/does-frost-kill-grass-seed.html#:~:text=The%20easy%20answer%20is%20that,sprout%20into%20seedlings%20will%20not.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Deleted.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

grassbladepeeper said:


> OMG, crap! I hope my 4 days old seed that I dropped last Sunday will survive 😥
> 
> It will be in 65-70s in mid October.
> 
> ...


Yikes! My seed managed to survive temps that just touched the freezing mark two weeks ago and I did see what looked like frost on some lawns, However, none of the seed had sprouted yet. The new grass seedlings are doing well now.

Note that you are seeing a frost "advisory" rather than a "watch" or "warning". With any luck, it won't be an issue.

Do you have any large tarps?


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

No, I don't have any large tarps. It looks like the frosting didn't happen since it only went down to 38F here in our area. Maybe it did for very short time and might be light frost. It's very sunny right now which is good.


----------



## grassbladepeeper (Sep 24, 2020)

It's 5th day today. I'm guessing the seeds' outer layers are now soft and some seeds might have 0.5mm roots. I did a paper towel test on the seeds I bought. I started it on the night of Sept 26. This morning, I saw 2-3 seeds have about 2-4mm single grass blade now. I dropped the seeds outside on Sept 27. Outside temperature will be different since it's colder. I think it might take 15-25days before I see grass blades. Wish me luck!


----------

