# Spring seeding failed - help with fall plan



## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Well, my backyard spring seeding, which I had a feeling may not work, did not work. It looked so good a couple weeks ago. Green and thick. Despite watering 0.5 inch every 2-3 days, the 90+ degree temperatures and sun has almost killed all of my baby grass, and we're only ten days into July.

I am stopping the watering and going to seed again in the fall. I also have a small (150 square feet) patch of bentgrass in my otherwise nice front lawn that I would like to kill off and seed in the fall.

I have several questions that I hope you guys could help me out with:

1. To kill the bentgrass patch in my front lawn, is general RoundUp with Glyphosate 2% sufficient?

2. How much RoundUp is needed? Just enough to get the lawn kind of damp like a morning dew, or do I have to soak it?

3. How long before I plan to plant new grass seed should I apply RoundUp? I was thinking 2-4 weeks.

4. Are multiple applications of RoundUp generally needed/recommended?

5. For seeding the entire backyard, which is about 50% bare by my estimate, is cutting it short, bagging the clippings and then slice seeding sufficient, or should I also aerate or dethatch first to remove more dead grass? If so, what is the appropriate timing of these things? I was thinking cut it short, aerate, wait a week or 2, cut it short again, slice seed. Or perhaps I can aerate and then slice seed immediately after, letting the slicer cut up the cores. But I am a rookie at this and looking for ideas on how to do this properly and efficiently.

6. Since my backyard is some full spots and some bare spots, what would be the lbs of seed per 1,000 sq ft recommended? In theory I would put more seed down in the bare areas, but that's tough to do when there are several bare areas amongst full areas of grass. I could go back after slice seeding with some seed in a bucket and use a rake to mix it into the dirt.

7. When would be the proper time to apply starter fertilizer? In conjunction with seeding or a couple weeks later after the seedlings begin to sprout?

Thank you all for any assistance!


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

1- I'm not familiar with 2% glyphosate so assuming it's the ready to use stuff it should work fine. I would add non-ionic surfactant or some dish soap to make sure it sticks. I use the 41% concentrate from the local Tractor Supply and 2 to 3 ounces per gallon will kill anything.

2- I prefer a fine mist just to make everything damp. Glypho is absorbed through the leaves so anything that drips off into the soil is basically wasted.

3- I would spray it 4 to 6 weeks prior to planned seeding. One week before the first spray apply some nitrogen to the area and water it in. You could even sprinkle Miracle Gro and water that in. The healthier it is the better it will die. Once it's brown and dead keep watering it regularly to green up anything that wasn't killed. Spot spray anything that turns green up to the day before seeding.

4- Yes, see above.

5- Cut it short and bag the clippings just before seeding. I've never slice seeded but it's a good option if you have access to the equipment. I may or may not aerate before seeding. Either way after spreading the seed I run over it good with my mower to press the seed in the soil. You can rent a lawn roller which works well too but with my mower weighing 1300lbs I just use it. I've always had good germination this way.

6- I would go with the overseed rate on the entire lawn and then go back and seed the bare spots by hand. Since you don't mention KBG, fescue, rye or a mix I'm not sure what rate to tell you. There's a big difference depending on which one.

7- I don't apply any fertilizer until after the first mow. Outside of soil contact, moisture and sunlight the seed contains everything the new grass will need for the first couple weeks of life. Plus in an overseed you don't give the existing grass a jumpstart over the new seedlings.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

One thing i will recommend, is spray Tenacity down when you seed. Its a bit costly(like $60 for a tiny jar) but it will last you a long time and if you have bentgrass now you will again in the future so its nice to have around. The tiny jar goes a long way as well.

It will help you a lot when it comes to seeding time, so that you arent just fighting tons of fall weeds overtaking your grass and give it some time to get going so you can throw down a traditional Pre-Em later.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Another option is to buy scotts starter fertilizer with weed preventer, it has the tenacity already in it and save you a step.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Yea but I dont think Tenacity in granular form affects Bentgrass, i think only as a Post-Em foliar does it kill back bent.

Still may be a good option for seed down though.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

It sounds like you have a good plan. Ryan Knorr did a playlist on an overseed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1p0ZVB87qE&list=PLzripA58GQvE94GkpIY-4T_s01EizvSpe

What type of grass are you trying to grow?


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

That is what i meant at seed down, sorry i didn't make that more clear. Thanks for catching that.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> 1- I'm not familiar with 2% glyphosate so assuming it's the ready to use stuff it should work fine. I would add non-ionic surfactant or some dish soap to make sure it sticks. I use the 41% concentrate from the local Tractor Supply and 2 to 3 ounces per gallon will kill anything.
> 
> 2- I prefer a fine mist just to make everything damp. Glypho is absorbed through the leaves so anything that drips off into the soil is basically wasted.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much for your detailed reply.

How does this plan sound for approximate dates, weather permitting:

8/11: Apply nitrogen to front lawn bentgrass area to encourage growth. Water over the next week.
8/18: Spray glyphosate on bentgrass. Continue treatments as necessary over next several weeks.
9/8: Cut backyard short and bag clippings.
9/8: Clean up dead bentgrass from front lawn.
9/8: Aerate entire lawn
9/15: Slice seed backyard and front yard bentgrass area
10/6: Mow and fertilize backyard and front yard bentgrass area with starter fertilizer.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Thanks guys. I will get the Scott's starter fertilizer with Tenacity and probably put that down upon seeding or shortly after.

I am going to use a general northern blend sun & shade mix - fescue, bluegrass, rye. More than likely, just the Scott's sun & shade mix that all the big box stores have, with the water coating.

I'm thinking 5lbs per 1,000 square feet for overseeding and lay it on thicker by hand for the bare spots.

@jessehurlburt Thanks for the Ryan Knorr videos. They are excellent. I noticed he dethached and aerated before seeding. Is that necessary? I could get them both done on the same day for probably $150. Then wait a week or so for the cores to break down, then slice seed and throw down starter fertilizer at that time.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

CPA Nerd said:


> Thanks very much for your detailed reply.
> 
> How does this plan sound for approximate dates, weather permitting:
> 
> ...


Overall it sounds good. I've found that cutting short gives you a week of almost no growth due to shock which gives the seeds a better chance. If possible do your short cut either the day of or the day before. Seedlings also seem to grow much quicker than established grass anyway.

Assuming you are using TTTF the fist cut might come sooner than 3 weeks. My TTTF reno back in 2013 got it's first cut exactly 2 weeks after seed down. If you keep the seed moist you should see germination in 5 to 7 days so play that one by ear. You don't want the new grass to get too long and flop over. Once that happens it's a done deal! The overseeded areas will be fine as the established grass will help support the new grass but the bare spots that will be all new grass is what you need to watch. Just make sure to stop the 3 times a day watering regimen a day or two before the first cut to let it dry out a little.

EDIT: After reading your last post, a fescue/kbg/rye mix can be tricky. The rye will likely germinate first followed closely by the TTTF. The KBG can take 3 to 4 weeks to germinate so you'll have to use your own judgement there as to when to mow.

I'm not a fan of the "special coatings" on seed. You end up paying twice as much per pound because a lot of what is in the bag is coating, sometimes 50% or more. I won't argue how effective the coatings are because honestly I don't know. Just seems gimicky to me as regular uncoated seeds have been germinating just fine for millions of years. This will also affect the seeding rates as now you are putting down as much coating as you are seed. It is very possible to buy sod quality seed (certified 0% weed seeds) for the same or even less money per pound than a coated seed that may contain a very small percentage of weed seed. Read the seed label very carefully before buying it to see what you are actually paying for.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

CPA Nerd said:


> Thanks guys. I will get the Scott's starter fertilizer with Tenacity and probably put that down upon seeding or shortly after.
> 
> I am going to use a general northern blend sun & shade mix - fescue, bluegrass, rye. More than likely, just the Scott's sun & shade mix that all the big box stores have, with the water coating.
> 
> ...


The detatching is helpful to remove the dead grass and help gets good seed to soil contact. Since you had spots die off this summer it would helpful to get rid of all that dead material. As far as the seed goes, I've used Scotts sun and shade and actually like it a lot. Keep in mind half the weight of the bag is the coating, so factor that in to your rates and wallet. I would recommend considering Hogan seeds. About the same price and its weed free seed. They make one called Hogans blend that is tall fescue, KBG. Tall fescue does well in full sun to moderate shade.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Thanks guys. I might as well do this right and do dethatching and aeration first. In that case, maybe I can skip the slice seeding and simply overseed a couple weeks later and do the bare spots by hand. Maybe I'm wrong, but dethatching, aerating, and slice seeding seems like a lot of trauma for the established parts of my lawn.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I would dethatch, aerate and broadcast seed the same day. Light coating of peat on the bare areas. I might also aim for Labor day to give your seedlings a bit more time before the first frost. If you seed on 9/15 and it takes 2 weeks to germinate you're cutting it pretty close, IMO.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Thank you. Will broadcast seeding (rather than slice seeding) allow for enough seed to soil contact? I have clay soil and it is often like concrete.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I'd rake it in slightly. You can also rent a roller from Home Depot for like $15. That is my plan for this fall. Dethatch, seed and roll it to get the seed pressed down a bit. 
Jesse


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

I see the roller at Home Depot. That's a hand roller? What do you do, just fill it with water and push it?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Yep, fill it with water and push it. Not sure if you can hook it up to a tractor; you might be able to pull it..


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@CPA Nerd lots of excellent recommendations in this thread, IMO.

Everyone, when you are cutting down existing grass for an overseed, do you like to gradually lower HOC or make one very large cut (violating the 1/3 rule several times over) ?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Rollers that link up to a riding mower are available. You can cover a lot of ground with them and make as many passes as you want if time is not an issue.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

social port said:


> Rollers that link up to a riding mower are available. You can cover a lot of ground with them and make as many passes as you want if time is not an issue.


+1 Social

It says it on the HD site, "Large diameter for easy pushing or hookup behind a tractor for towing"


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

social port said:


> @CPA Nerd lots of excellent recommendations in this thread, IMO.
> 
> Everyone, when you are cutting down existing grass for an overseed, do you like to gradually lower HOC or make one very large cut (violating the 1/3 rule several times over) ?


All at once. Granted, if the grass is 5" I won't drop it to 2" all at once. Normally I'll go from 4" down to 2.5" which leaves it looking pretty pale and stemmy but since you're going to be watering the seed anyway it's not going to kill the existing grass. It will kind of throw it in to shock for a while but that gives the seeds time to germinate and get out into the sunlight. After 2 to 3 weeks and a taller HOC it will be back to normal.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> It will kind of throw it in to shock for a while but that gives the seeds time to germinate and get out into the sunlight.


That is pretty slick. 
Of course, you are not using N and tenacity at that time. Using them would create additional points of stress on top of the shock.
I really like your strategy here, but I am curious: Have you ever done a shock cut, in addition to N and Tenacity?
I did the latter last year, and it turned out just fine--but the grass was KY 31. I'm not sure how TTTF would respond.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

social port said:


> That is pretty slick.
> Of course, you are not using N and tenacity at that time. Using them would create additional points of stress on top of the shock.
> I really like your strategy here, but I am curious: Have you ever done a shock cut, in addition to N and Tenacity?
> I did the latter last year, and it turned out just fine--but the grass was KY 31. I'm not sure how TTTF would respond.


In theory, a tenacity app at seeding is for pre-m so it will be watered in and really shouldn't have any effect on the grass good or bad. Just make sure you're dead on with your measurements using Tenacity as a pre-m or it could cause problems with germination (learned the hard way). I don't do any nitrogen at seeding because #1 I don't want to encourage growth in the existing grass until the new seeds have sprouted and #2 the new seeds don't really need it at first anyway. By the time I do the first cut the seedling are as tall if not a little taller than the established grass. I normally put down 0-25-25 at time of seeding to promote root growth and hold off on nitrogen until after the first mowing and then the N source is urea which I spoon feed.

One exception is sometimes I do an organic like alfalfa (rabbit pellets) at time of seeding but it takes those a good 3 weeks to be converted to nitrogen. I typically do 20lbs of alfalfa per 1k.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@ForsheeMS wow. This is a really fresh perspective (to me) on overseeding. Thanks for sharing. I am thinking about giving your method a try.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ I like this approach. In my opinion, tenacity is not needed in an overseed, but won't hurt if done correctly.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Anybody ever use a hand cultivator to stir up hard soil for seeding?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I've used a garden weasel. They work very well, but I wouldn't want to do more than 1000 sqft with one. It is a grind.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

social port said:


> I've used a garden weasel. They work very well, but I wouldn't want to do more than 1000 sqft with one. It is a grind.


My back yard is about 2,500 square feet. Unless I rent a slice seeder, I be using it in the bare and thin spots. Leaning toward aerating and broadcast seeding the whole lawn with a spreader and using the garden weasel to do the problem spots by hand.

What is the germination rate of just aerating and overseeding with a spreader? I can't imagine there is great seed to soil contact, but I know a lot of people do it.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I think that the garden weasel is ideal for that purpose: seeding problem areas where soil may be more compacted. Also be sure to check for rocks underneath the surface in those problem areas.
The garden weasel helps to rough up a thin layer of soil, thereby improving the quality of the seedbed.

I don't know about germination rates produced by various methods. I tend to think that aeration is not essential to the seeding process. Its main purpose is to help oxygen get into the soil-to 'de-compact' the soil. But there is a lot of debate and difference of opinion on the topic of aeration.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > That is pretty slick.
> ...


Is there a certain fertilizer you used that is 0-25-25? I have tried searching for one but have come up empty.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

I purchase all my fertilizer from a local feed and seed store. They carry a lot of different combos you won't find in the box stores and it's a lot cheaper too. They are a Southern States dealer. A 50lbs bag of 0-25-25 runs about $15. A 50lbs bag of urea runs the same.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Farmers use 6-24-24 that should be easy to find. It has a small amount of nitrogen. The other option is to buy triple super phosphate and SOP individually.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Hey guys, OP again. If I chose to use a liquid aeration (Air8/RGS) instead of mechanical core aeration, how long before seeding would be recommended to do that? Or doesn't it matter?


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

I'd ask Matt @ Grassfactor or even GCI to find out an exact answer.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Unfortunately, it appears that half of my front lawn, not just a portion, is bentgrass. It is all clustered together with not a lot of desirable grasses mixed it, so I think the best bet is to kill it off and reseed the entire area.

If I am applying RoundUp in August, the grass will likely be dormant. Do I have to water my weedy lawn in order to keep it alive for RoundUp application? Any reason I can't just nuke it now while it's still greenish?

Any thoughts on using Tenacity instead? Pros/cons compared to RoundUp?

I'm struggling with the timing of everything as well as the seeding method. I am now going to have around 4,000 square feet to seed in total. What is the most efficient way that will result in the best germination? Probably a slit seeder? In that case, I will skip the aeration completely. Maybe it won't hurt to use some Air8 liquid aeration around the time of seeding, but if I am slit seeding I don't see the point of core aeration, as it won't help me with seeding.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

My understanding (not personal experience) is Tenacity can control bentgrass, but I think I recall reading that fall is the best time to kill it off. If you have other grassy weeds nuking it all might be best. You would need it to be growing for the roundup to be effective, so either keep it irrigated or kill it before it goes dormant.

I still say dethatch, broadcast and roll, but it is personal preference (i'm cheap too) - you could get great results slit seeding as well.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Thanks. I don't have a lot of thatch and renting a slit seeder is the same price as a dethatcher, so I am leaning toward slit seeding. I also don't have a roller or a riding mower, so rather than rolling, I think roughing up the soil with a slit seeder will work better for me. Slit seeder rental is cheaper than dethatcher and roller rental and probably less labor intensive.

How does this sound, weather permitting:

8/1: 
Apply Round-Up to bentgrass in front lawn (a fairly large area). Continue to irrigate and spray Round-Up on bentgrass as needed up until a day or two before seeding.

8/15:
Apply liquid aerator (Air-8 and RGS combo) to somewhat soften soil before seeding.

8/29 or 9/6: 
Cut entire lawn at 2.25-2.5 inches and bag clippings
Clean up dead bentgrass and entire lawn in general (rocks, sticks, etc.)
Overseed entire lawn with slice seeder at 8 lbs/1,000 square feet. 
For particularly bare areas and front yard reno, rough up seed some more and apply seed by hand.

If I wanted to use peat moss for the front reno (is this even necessary?), how much would I need per 1,000 square feet? I have no access to a truck so I would have to get it delivered if I need a whole bunch.

Finally, please re-assure me that bentgrass is the devil and I should kill it off. I am terrified to kill off half my front lawn but seeing as it is crappy bentgrass that stays flat after even moderate foot traffic, I don't see much of a choice. When I mow high, much of it doesn't even cut because it's at least partially flopped over.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I wouldn't bother with the peat moss if you're going to slit seed since the seed will be in the soil. Maybe grab one bag of it to lightly cover the areas that also get seed hand broadcasted.

What seed did you settle on?


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

I am leaning toward the Scotts Sun & Shade Mix. People have said it's dummy proof and Allyn Hane said the water coating helps. I am also considering these blends:

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-20-lb-Sun-and-Shade-Grass-Seed-Mix-52223/100352365

https://www.menards.com/main/outdoors/gardening/seeds-bulbs/natures-finest-trade-midwest-master-premium-grass-seed-15-lbs/32415/p-1444450690045-c-10125.htm?tid=-3321547906358635837&ipos=3

https://www.menards.com/main/outdoors/gardening/seeds-bulbs/schultz-reg-hardy-lawn-grass-seed-mixture/p-1444424695123-c-10125.htm?tid=-3321547906358635837&ipos=1


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Whatever you do, look closely at the label for whatever seed you are considering using and look at the seed content and more specifically the weed seed content. I'll give you this to think about. Tall fescue has roughly 225,000 seeds per pound. If the label states .01% weed seed that means there are potentially 22.5 weed seeds per pound of TTTF. Now, if you're going to kill the lawn and start over you will need 8lbs of seed per 1k which means you there's a good chance you will be planting 180 weeds per 1,000 square feet of lawn. Isn't that what you're trying to fix now?

I would highly recommend calling The Hogan Company and talk to them about your seed. The folks there are great to deal with and always willing to help. They have sod quality seed meaning it is certified 100% weed free. Their TTTF has run me somewhere around $2.10 to $2.15 per pound plus shipping and it is great stuff.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> Whatever you do, look closely at the label for whatever seed you are considering using and look at the seed content and more specifically the weed seed content. I'll give you this to think about. Tall fescue has roughly 225,000 seeds per pound. If the label states .01% weed seed that means there are potentially 22.5 weed seeds per pound of TTTF. Now, if you're going to kill the lawn and start over you will need 8lbs of seed per 1k which means you there's a good chance you will be planting 180 weeds per 1,000 square feet of lawn. Isn't that what you're trying to fix now?
> 
> I would highly recommend calling The Hogan Company and talk to them about your seed. The folks there are great to deal with and always willing to help. They have sod quality seed meaning it is certified 100% weed free. Their TTTF has run me somewhere around $2.10 to $2.15 per pound plus shipping and it is great stuff.


That's good advice. I will give them a call and ask their recommendation. It's tricky because I have areas of full sun, areas of dense shade, and some in between. I'm sure they'll be able to recommend a good solution.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Areas of dense shade can be really tough to grow any type of grass. If you can get it to at least 3 to 4 hours of sunlight it will do pretty good. Otherwise the dense shade areas might need to be converted to some type of beds.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

CPA Nerd said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> > Whatever you do, look closely at the label for whatever seed you are considering using and look at the seed content and more specifically the weed seed content. I'll give you this to think about. Tall fescue has roughly 225,000 seeds per pound. If the label states .01% weed seed that means there are potentially 22.5 weed seeds per pound of TTTF. Now, if you're going to kill the lawn and start over you will need 8lbs of seed per 1k which means you there's a good chance you will be planting 180 weeds per 1,000 square feet of lawn. Isn't that what you're trying to fix now?
> ...


Call them Now. Bob there is bored. I called yesterday to order seed, and we chatted for 30 minutes about grass. Just tell him your situation, and he'll set you up right. I paid $2.10 a lb and no shipping. Solid Price, and Excellent service.

Edit: They called me about 30 minutes ago to let me know the bag shipped. Can't beat it.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

@ForsheeMS I think all areas have 3 hours of sunlight. We have a very large tree but I believe in the morning and evening as the sun is coming up/going down it gets sunlight.

@LawnNerd Thank you. I will give him a call as soon as I have 10-15 free minutes.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I've got an area that's directly against the north side of the house. I get just enough sun in the morning and evenings that i still have good coverage back there. Actually, in the summer it's the best looking grass I have because it's shaded during the heat of the day.


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

LawnNerd said:


> CPA Nerd said:
> 
> 
> > ForsheeMS said:
> ...


Haha I had a very similar situation. When I called to order, Bob chatted for like 20 minutes. Super nice guy. For their TTTF Hogan Blend I paid $2.20 a pound plus shipping for 10lbs. So 10lbs totaled around $40.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

> I think all areas have 3 hours of sunlight. We have a very large tree but I believe in the morning and evening as the sun is coming up/going down it gets sunlight.


Trim up some of the lower limbs if you haven't already. It's amazing at how much more sunlight you can get in by doing that and will make a huge difference for the grass in that area.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ order good seed from a seed company. Mid August is the best time to seed for Chicago. Round up is normally applied a month before seeds. This allows for following ( second application of round up to catch what you missed).

Do you have a watering strategy?


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

I called Hogan Seeds and spoke briefly with Bob Hogan. Nice guy. He asked me to call him back and he'd have more time to chat, but I wasn't able. I'll call him again on Monday. I am leaning toward a tall fescue because most of my lawn is in shade for a lot of the day. I'll explain my situation and see what he recommends.

@g-man My watering strategy is hoses, sprinklers and timers!

After talking to my wife and walking around the lawn this morning, I think we're going to try Tenacity instead of Roundup. We found that what we THINK is bentgrass is over more than just the grass near the house. There are patches kind of all over the place. I want to kill it, but I don't want to lose all the nice grass too. I am considering 3 broadcast applications of Tenacity over the entire lawn, 2 weeks apart. Weather permitting, 7/21, 8/4 and 8/18, give or take. Seed immediately after that, again weather permitting. As long as I don't seed with a heavy fine fescue blend, I think I'll be fine.

This way, we will (hopefully) kill all the bad stuff, mainly bentgrass but also some other weeds in the lawn, while not killing the entire lawn. We'll then slice seed the entire lawn and hopefully it'll be looking good by next spring.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What I meant is, can you water all your property using what you have? In a Reno you need to keep all the areas moist. That's could take 5-6 waterings per day.

I don't think you should do a whole yard Reno. It is a lot of work. The areas that are bare, you need to do something. I would hit the yard with 4oz rate of tenacity to light up the bentgrass.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> What I meant is, can you water all your property using what you have? In a Reno you need to keep all the areas moist. That's could take 5-6 waterings per day.
> 
> I don't think you should do a whole yard Reno. It is a lot of work. The areas that are bare, you need to do something. I would hit the yard with 4oz rate of tenacity to light up the bentgrass.


Oh, yes, I can absolutely water the the entire property with what I have. It is a bit of work to set it up, but once the sprinklers are in place and the timers are set, it's pretty much autopilot from there. My wife is home during the day with our baby and is willing and able to move sprinklers around if necessary. I don't think it will be.

Strongly agreed on the whole yard reno. It's something I've never done before and not something I feel comfortable doing yet. The idea of spraying Roundup on my lawn gives me a bad feeling. That's why I'm strongly leaning toward the Tenacity route. I won't kill any desired grass and worst case scenario, even if I get no grass seed germination, I'm left with bare spots that were undesirable bentgrass anyway, which in my book is better than having bentgrass spreading across the lawn. However, I'm confident that I'll get good germination.

What do you think of my plan? This forum has been a great resource not only for my various questions, but in just reading prior forum posts from other members' situations.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think the tenacity app asap would be a first step to see how much you got. I searched the weed id thread and could not find a picture of the bentgrass or in this thread.

I would order good seed (Hogan or seed super store) for an overseed. I would keep hitting the undesired grass until it dies and then overseed.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

@g-man Here are some pictures that I just went out and took. The first two are an area that gets less sun and walked on more. The others are in an area that gets a bit more sun and walked on less.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't see bentgrass. I do see a very long grass. It looks like a fine fescue.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> I don't see bentgrass. I do see a very long grass. It looks like a fine fescue.


Seriously? I thought bentgrass for sure. It flattens out after walking on it and does not come back up. I just mowed it 5 days ago. I'm not sure what to do now.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Other will chime in, but to me it looks too long for that type of grass. When it can't stay upright, then it mats and causes fungus. What is your hoc? Could you plug a string of the bentgrass and take a picture of just it?


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> Other will chime in, but to me it looks too long for that type of grass. When it can't stay upright, then it mats and causes fungus. What is your hoc? Could you plug a string of the bentgrass and take a picture of just it?


HOC has been a steady 3.5 inches.

I'll pull some plugs from each section later on after the rain stops, the brownish patch and the green patch. I'll also take a farther away picture. I don't think it's as long as it looks in the greener patches.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Here is a plug from the browner area:










And here is a plug from the greener area:










Today the greener area (second picture) looks a bit better after some rain. The browner area is still flat as a pancake.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

Here is what the area looks like after I mowed at 3.5 inches today. All are in the same shady area, with only some filtered sunlight throughout the day. I think this is fine fescue, maybe creeping red?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

While your mower is set to 3.5in your effective hoc is much higher because the blades are laying. Take a ruler and measure the blades from the ground up.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> While your mower is set to 3.5in your effective hoc is much higher because the blades are laying. Take a ruler and measure the blades from the ground up.


Think it's a fine fescue?


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

i @CPA Nerd

i have a bunch of creeping bentgrass (or at least I think so). i tested spraying little parts of it the other day in the back. hoping tomorrow i see results....then gonna just go for it and blanket spray the front at repeat intervals if needed prior to overseed of tttf. hopefully i don't mess it up. anyone have any suggestions on how to avoid mistakes?


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

OP here again. After some careful research and consideration, I've decided to go a different route than slit seeding.

-Aerate end of August because soil is very hard in many spots.
-Mow lawn short
-Broadcast overseed shortly after (maybe same day, or maybe a couple weeks later, depending on the temperatures).
-Roll lawn by hand with Home Depot 270 pound roller.

Two questions:

1. I am unsure of the timing of aeration vs. overseeding. It depends on when the service could come out and how the weather is. Is it acceptable to cut short and bag the clippings shortly after aeration? I'd like the cores to serve as compost if possible and break down. If I mow at say 2.5 inches with the cores on the ground, will my mower pick most of them up? If weather is cool, I'll overseed immediately. If it's 80+ degrees I will want to give it time to cool off.

2. Is rolling an established lawn after overseeding advisable, or is rolling generally just for very bare lawns?


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

CPA Nerd said:


> 2. Is rolling an established lawn after overseeding advisable, or is rolling generally just for very bare lawns?


That's my plan for when I overseed. Would think it would be advisable in any instance of putting down seed.


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## jurkewycmi (Jun 3, 2018)

You can do it all in one day as long as weather permits

Mow low and bag
Aerate
Rake the cores to disperse them, essentially top dresses your lawn with its own soil
Seed down
1/3 full roller - heavy enough to press the seed to soil, not heavy enough to compact ground
Peat moss if you're doing that
Water and tlc


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## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

CPA Nerd said:


> Thanks guys. I will get the Scott's starter fertilizer with Tenacity and probably put that down upon seeding or shortly after.
> 
> I am going to use a general northern blend sun & shade mix - fescue, bluegrass, rye. More than likely, just the Scott's sun & shade mix that all the big box stores have, with the water coating.
> 
> ...


Not sure if anyone else mentioned this as I haven't read the entire thread yet but keep in mind 5lbs of scotts seed with the water coating is really only about 2.5lbs/K of seed (very light for a northern mix)... half of the weight is the coating.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I disagree with keeping the cores and raking them in. I know everyone says to leave them, but I have aerated these last two years leaving the cores behind, and I just feel like raking the cores back into the holes is counterproductive to what you're trying to do. If I aerate again, I will rake the core and topdress with compost.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I just wanted to bring this back to light. How long does it typically take for tenacity to light up bentgrass and POA T white?

I'm debating to either do that or just to walk around the lawn and do my best to spray glypho on those spots.

I live in Massachusetts so time is ticking.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I just wanted to bring this back to light. How long does it typically take for tenacity to light up bentgrass and POA T white?
> 
> I'm debating to either do that or just to walk around the lawn and do my best to spray glypho on those spots.
> 
> I live in Massachusetts so time is ticking.


Tenacity is great at eliminating bentgrass. With two apps about 10 days apart, the bentgrass will be on its way out to the point that it won't be coming back again. If the bentgrass is only a season or so old, usually there's enough of the preferred grass remaining that the area will fill back in again without having to bring in plugs from other other spots or reseeding. I've had success spraying bentgrass in a northern mix and having the spot recover on its own through just proper mowing, fertilization, and weed control.

_Poa trivialis_, on the other hand, is going to need glyphosate even if you spray Tenacity. If you can recognize where the _Poa trivialis_ is well enough, then you may as well just start with the glyphosate on it. If you need to spray Tenacity first to help light it up, the _Poa trivialis_ is generally evident about 7-10 days after spraying the Tenacity. Two apps of glyphosate will be needed to have a good shot at getting it all, and even then some might sneak through. My preferred approach with _Poa trivialis_ is to spray standard slow-kill glyphosate about 8" beyond where I can see any _Poa trivialis_, wait about a week so that I can see where the kill area is, cut out the dying sod to a depth of 2", remove the dying sod from the lawn, replace with new topsoil, and then transplant in plugs from a good section of lawn using the ProPlugger. I've found this approach to work with close to 100% success. When I've just sprayed glyphosate, I've sometimes had some _Poa trivialis_ escape and come back again.

You can see more about our "War on Triv" in our reno thread from last fall: Ken-n-Nancy's Lawn Journal - "War on Triv".


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > I just wanted to bring this back to light. How long does it typically take for tenacity to light up bentgrass and POA T white?
> ...


Thanks for taking the time and responding.
This is great info! I'm putting down my first glypho app this weekend. It's going to kill me for a while seeing the lawn look patchy with dead grass but it needs to be done.

I see that you live in NH, that's north of me by about 2 hr +/- . I'm in southern massachusetts. As you know we can have some crazy weather shifts. We could still be dealing with 90+ degrees in September like we have in the past. What has been your experience or what would you suggest for a seed down date for TTTF and KBG? I was thinking. At the absolute latest would be the weekend of 8/17-18.


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