# Tips wanted - Atrazine and Ethofumesate for Bermudagrass suppression in St. Augustine



## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm looking at my soil temps and it appears the bermuda in my St. Aug will start greening up soon. In accordance with the UGA publication, I'm looking to put out two apps of an Atrazine+Ethofumesate mixture.

I've never sprayed atrazine or ethofumesate before, but it's my understanding that I need to avoid spraying atrazine over the root zone of my crepe myrtles, supposedly about 3x the radius of the drip line.

Does anybody have any tips or precautions for me before I put this plan into action? Recommended app rates? Anything?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Greendoc


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

True. Keep Atrazine away from the rootzone of desirable trees and shrubs. Ethofumesate also needs something like MSO as a surfactant. On a Florida lawn on alkaline sand where movement of Atrazine to places it does not belong is a high possibility, I would just as soon skip the Atrazine entirely. Ethofumesate applied repeatedly with a good surfactant works well. It is not a once and done program or even a one year and done program.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Here's what I found in the Clemson manual 2011 Pest Control Guidelines for Professional Turfgrass Managers:



I would like to avoid atrazine if I can. Maybe I'll try to go without this year and see how it goes.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I would be very leery of applying Atrazine unless I were doing the treatment on acidic extremely heavy textured soil that made the probability of it leaching down minimal. If I wanted to discourage Bermuda, other thing I would do is increase the water, raise mowing height and cut the fertilizer. That is right. My desire for short and almost blue colored grass is exactly what the Bermuda wants. St Augustine is naturally an apple green, taller grass.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks, @Greendoc . Are you suggesting no fert at all or just limited amounts?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> I'm looking at my soil temps and it appears the bermuda in my St. Aug will start greening up soon. In accordance with the UGA publication, I'm looking to put out two apps of an Atrazine+Ethofumesate mixture.
> 
> I've never sprayed atrazine or ethofumesate before, but it's my understanding that I need to avoid spraying atrazine over the root zone of my crepe myrtles, supposedly about 3x the radius of the drip line.
> 
> Does anybody have any tips or precautions for me before I put this plan into action? Recommended app rates? Anything?


I spray this mix. Never noticed a problem spraying atrazine over crepe myrtles. Document everything because you will notice you need more than the 4% atrazine. This year I'm doubling the amount of atrazine in my mix.

Spraying atrazine out of my sprayers plus sprayer gives me fits. It Clogs up the filter really bad. This mix does work but don't expect a over night miracle as this will be my second year running this.

Good luck


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Thanks I'm learning a lot @Greendoc I see what effects using no fertilizer has this season.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ionicatoms said:


> Thanks, @Greendoc . Are you suggesting no fert at all or just limited amounts?


0 Fertilizer.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > I'm looking at my soil temps and it appears the bermuda in my St. Aug will start greening up soon. In accordance with the UGA publication, I'm looking to put out two apps of an Atrazine+Ethofumesate mixture.
> ...


If I am not mistaken, the label rate of the 4% Atrazine liquid applies a lb of Atrazine per acre. I know Bermuda can tolerate a lb of Atrazine per acre. Twice that amount, it definitely burns.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > ionicatoms said:
> ...


Thanks, that's exactly what I'm looking for to get rid of bermuda. I already know st Augustine can tolerate it because I've tried it already.


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## GPLC90 (Oct 14, 2020)

@Greendoc

So to be clear.

*Don'ts*- No fertilizer and no atrazine unless you have the type of soil you describe.

*Do's* - Increase watering, ethofumesate, w/surfactant, and raise mowing height 3.5 - 4 inches .

Did I miss anything?


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## GPLC90 (Oct 14, 2020)

And why wouldn't you want to push the St. Aug growth with fertilizer if you are suppressing the Bermuda w/ ethofumesate & atrazine?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

GPLC90 said:


> And why wouldn't you want to push the St. Aug growth with fertilizer if you are suppressing the Bermuda w/ ethofumesate & atrazine?


Because well fed Bermuda is actually tolerant of Atrazine. I have personally seen it because in times past before there was a such thing as the likes of Revolver, Celsius and Monument, a tank mix of Atrazine + MSMA was prescribed for removing grassy weeds from Bermuda fairways and sports turf. Bermuda would singe a little and green back up in about 2 weeks.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> True. Keep Atrazine away from the rootzone of desirable trees and shrubs. Ethofumesate also needs something like MSO as a surfactant. On a Florida lawn on alkaline sand where movement of Atrazine to places it does not belong is a high possibility, I would just as soon skip the Atrazine entirely. Ethofumesate applied repeatedly with a good surfactant works well. It is not a once and done program or even a one year and done program.


I'm wondering why mso instead of nis??? @Greendoc thanks


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> GPLC90 said:
> 
> 
> > And why wouldn't you want to push the St. Aug growth with fertilizer if you are suppressing the Bermuda w/ ethofumesate & atrazine?
> ...


I have found well-fed bermuda to be tolerant of almost everything you throw at it.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Darth_V8r said:


> I have found well-fed bermuda to be tolerant of almost everything you throw at it.


This. 100%


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

My Bermuda is starting to green up. I'll be starting the ethofumesate this weekend if the weather is good.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> My Bermuda is starting to green up. I'll be starting the ethofumesate this weekend if the weather is good.


Pick your sprays wisely. On the label if I'm right you can only get two applications per year out of ethofumesate.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> I'm wondering why mso instead of nis??? @Greendoc thanks


I found an article that says ethofumesate is (probably?) an oil-based formulation.

"However, oil-based formulations like Stinger, ethofumesate or Betamix tank-mixed with glyphosate perform better with oil adjuvants (crop oil concentrate or methylated seed oil) than NIS. High surfactant oil concentrate (HSMOC) adjuvants have a higher surfactant concentration than COC or MSO and enhance oil solute herbicides without decreasing glyphosate activity."

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/cpr/weeds/postemergence-herbicide-treatments-in-sugarbeet-05-21-20


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Because Ethofumesate is an example of a herbicide that is more soluble in oils than water. Atrazine is also enhanced by oils because they delay when the Atrazine turns back into large crystals that are not as likely to penetrate leaves.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Thanks @Greendoc. I ordered MSO and will hold off on the Ethofumesate for another few days at the least. Still haven't done my first treatment. Think I'll look for thicker gloves in the meantime. Label calls for 14 mils.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I think it's working. I offer these ugly patches as evidence.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

You sprayed ??? @ionicatoms at what rate??

This is what I'm planning

Etho .5 1k
Atrazine 4 oz 1k
Mso .5 oz 1 k

Spraying them three weeks apart. Hoping for the best


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> You sprayed ??? @ionicatoms at what rate??
> 
> This is what I'm planning
> 
> ...


Yeah, I posted the details on March 7th here. Looks like I went a little heavier than you are planning. In summary, I used:

On 2200 Sq. F
1.25 floz Rightline Ethofumesate 4 SC
16 floz Southern Ag Atrazine St. Augustine Weed Killer
2.25 floz Southern Ag Methylated Seed Oil
4 floz Liquid Harvest Lazer Green
Added H2O until had 4 gallons of water


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > You sprayed ??? @ionicatoms at what rate??
> ...


Ok that's cool. I'm thinking I'll wait until I cut the grass twice before I start spraying this season. This definitely works it just takes time and plenty of patience also I'm not fertilizing this year per Greendoc as that may have hinder my outcome.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> I'm not fertilizing this year per Greendoc as that may have hinder my outcome.


Ditto. I warned a couple of my neighbors this could get ugly. The Bermuda has got to go!


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not fertilizing this year per Greendoc as that may have hinder my outcome.
> ...


I'm going to increase my rates the second time I spray especially the rate of Atrazine


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> I'm going to increase my rates the second time I spray especially the rate of Atrazine


The instructions published by UGA/Clemson/UF suggest hitting it hard with atrazine on the first dose (2 lbs of a.i. per Acre) and then backing off on the second dose. That's from memory, so double check me if you are interested in going heavy.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > I'm going to increase my rates the second time I spray especially the rate of Atrazine
> ...


How would you do the conversion from 2 lb of a.i until something useful like oz of chemical per gallon???

What they're saying is 32 oz of a.i. per acre, but how to turn a.i. into a useful calculation.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@CenlaLowell

I figure that Atrazine 4L has 4 lbs of active ingredient per gallon. The 4L product is 43% atrazine. But I'm using the 4% stuff. So that's 0.372 lbs a.i. per gallon, or 15.8 floz per 1k sq. ft. to equal the 2 lbs of ai per A rate.

Better check my math on that. It's getting late!


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> @CenlaLowell
> 
> I figure that Atrazine 4L has 4 lbs of active ingredient per gallon. The 4L product is 43% atrazine. But I'm using the 4% stuff. So that's 0.372 lbs a.i. per gallon, or 15.8 floz per 1k sq. ft. to equal the 2 lbs of ai per A rate.
> 
> Better check my math on that. It's getting late!


Thanks, I still don't understand how you got those numbers lol


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

The 4% atrazine (https://www.growerssolution.com/mm5/graphics/00000002/Atrazine label opt.pdf) states 8.6oz/K = 1# AI / A so you already know that 17.2oz/K will get you the 2# AI / A

Atrazine 4L you already know 4# AI / gallon so 2# AI would be 64oz right?

2# AI / A would be 64 oz / A so 64/43.56 = 1.470 oz / K

I think what @ionicatoms was doing was taking the AI % factor of 43/4 = 10.75 and taking 4#AI/G and dividing it by 10.75 to get 0.372# AI / G , however, Atrazine 4L is actually 42.2% and I'm not sure you can take 2 products and take the % factor to get the weight of the active ingredients.

Unless one of the manufacturers math is wrong you have:

Atrazine 4L = 4 # AI / Gallon

Atrazine 4% = 8.6 oz / K = 1# AI / A so 
8.6 x 43.56 = 374.616oz/A = 1# AI / A so 
374.616/128 = 2.930 gallons = 1# AI so
1/2.93 = 0.341 # AI / Gallon

so the factor of AI/Gallon between the 42.2% and 4% is 4/0.341 = 11.73 factor 
and the % difference between the two is 42.2%/4% = 10.55 factor

So maybe the 2 products have a different ratio of "other ingredients" which means you cannot use the % factor to go between 2 products.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Seems right.

The bigger question for me is just how much more effectiveness are you getting by going above the label rate of 8.6 floz/K? I didn't find any literature comparing the two rates for bermuda suppression. This was my first app, so I wasn't willing to go that high, _especially since the articles I found didn't mention anything about using NIS or MSO_. I figure if the results are poor and the grass is tolerating the treatment pretty well, I can always come back and try again next spring at higher rates that are closer to those specified in the academic literature. I don't want to go _full_ mad scientist out in the yard if I can avoid it.

The wife is categorically opposed to renovating, so I figure this is my next best option for now.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@ionicatoms not sure which comment you actually saw of mine but I was waffling on math and other stuff but i believe everything is correct now.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I saw 'em both and agree with the analysis. I'm more prone to using a conservative approach in my reckoning since there's too much variability in my spraying technique, but I see nothing wrong with taking the label at face value.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Yeah I'm going to stay at the label rate instead of trying to get the math right. Also using the mso is new to me so I need to see the change using that.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> Yeah I'm going to stay at the label rate instead of trying to get the math right. Also using the mso is new to me so I need to see the change using that.


I am not disappointed with preliminary results; the areas I sprayed look pretty bad. I kind of imagine that hitting it with the full prescription would be a real bomb on the Bermuda and really slow down the St Aug. Terrifying and exciting all at the same time. I'll be hitting it again with a second dose at the 4 week mark.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah I'm going to stay at the label rate instead of trying to get the math right. Also using the mso is new to me so I need to see the change using that.
> ...


Stick with it. Document some areas and see how far st Augustine has took over. I can tell you st Augustine has took over plenty of areas in my lawn.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Here's an update.

The areas with Bermuda are looking terrible. Other areas don't look bad.

To be honest it looks like insect damage and drought stress, but why would it be affecting the areas with Bermuda the most? Bad luck?

I'll continue to monitor the situation and report my observations.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> Here's an update.
> 
> The areas with Bermuda are looking terrible. Other areas don't look bad.
> 
> ...


Question, that whole section is bermuda? because that's what it looks like from the picture. If so sprig and get some sheets of sod cut them up and plant them throughout that area


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@CenlaLowell 
I was thinking the same thing earlier today. I'll give it serious consideration.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> Question, that whole section is bermuda? because that's what it looks like from the picture. If so sprig and get some sheets of sod cut them up and plant them throughout that area


I took a really close look and determined that, no, it's not all Bermuda. After staring at it long enough, I decided it must be a fungus. Though I haven't the slightest idea which one. Some sort of leaf melting variety.

I am wondering if the herbicide mixture made the grass more prone to fungus.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > Question, that whole section is bermuda? because that's what it looks like from the picture. If so sprig and get some sheets of sod cut them up and plant them throughout that area
> ...


I don't believe herbicides do that, at least not the mixture for bermuda suppression. What's your ph??? If it's high that would make it prone to fungus issues I'm working on that since last year


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

6.8 last time I measured.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> 6.8 last time I measured.


Never mind that's a great ph


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Update for anybody following my trial. The Bermuda is still looking decently well suppressed. Some of the Bermuda looks like it wasn't impacted, but I feel like the Rightline product is delivering on the label claims.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> Update for anybody following my trial. The Bermuda is still looking decently well suppressed. Some of the Bermuda looks like it wasn't impacted, but I feel like the Rightline product is delivering on the label claims.


That's good your having success with it. What teejet nozzles you sprayed with?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@CenlaLowell I haven't upgraded. Still using the nozzles that came with the Chapin boom.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> @CenlaLowell I haven't upgraded. Still using the nozzles that came with the Chapin boom.


I'm going to the XR nozzles when I spray for my second application. Every year I gain ground against bermuda.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I have been too overwhelmed by the tremendous selection of teejet nozzles. I'm just trying to keep things simple at this point.

More than anything, I'm finding that I'm missing the ability to go very low pressure with the Cyclone 2. I'm thinking of selling it so that I can upgrade to the Typhoon V2.5 and then have a wider variety of pressures to play with.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

I just use the Tips as suggested from this post. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I guess I should give an update on my Bermuda suppression. The suppression is (seemingly) already wearing off; I am seeing more and more Bermuda green up.

I lost a lot of grass in areas that corresponded with high Bermuda concentration. But I feel that my setback was attributable mostly to fungus. I think when I try this again, I'll make sure I do better over the winter instead of letting so much turf desiccate itself to death and then make sure I'm on a good fungicide program leading up to spraying the Bermuda suppression.

Other than that, I am thinking that more than 2 sequential applications are probably necessary to make significant progress. I'll give it another go next year, hopefully with a stronger stand coming out of winter.

Always learning!


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

Have you guys seen this document? Bermuda suppression in SA starts on page 19 of the PDF.

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.543.4659&rep=rep1&type=pdf

Most notably it talks about 3 applications in March, April and May. All values below are referenced in active ingredient.

March: 3#/A Etho + 4#/A Atrazine
April and May: 3#/A Etho + 1#/A Atrazine

Doing some quick math:

42% Etho 3#/A would be approx. 2.94 FL oz/K.
4% Atrazine at 4#/A would be approx. 35 FL oz/K and 1#AI/A would be 8.75 FL oz/K (probably just better to use the Atrazine 4L at this point because similar to the Etho it has 4#AI/Gallon)

Looks like this timeline blows both labels out of the water for max rate per year.

Etho label says max rate per year for SA is 48OZ/A which is 1.5# AI/A and this doc wants 9# AI/A (which is in line for Seashore Paspalum).

Both Atrazine 4L and the 4% variants says not to exceed 2#AI/year

So I'm a little confused about that.

I guess the document says "sod production" so It's not residential use so the maxes don't line up.


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## AFBiker2011 (Jun 3, 2020)

Have you considered using Fluazifop-P-butyl?


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

AFBiker2011 said:


> Have you considered using Fluazifop-P-butyl?


says it's only for Zoysia and Tall Fescue.

https://www.domyown.com/msds/Fusilade_II_Label.pdf.pdf


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## AFBiker2011 (Jun 3, 2020)

It was referred to me by someone. Though I have zoysia. Kinda makes sense now...


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

mjh648 said:


> Have you guys seen this document? Bermuda suppression in SA starts on page 19 of the PDF.
> 
> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.543.4659&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> 
> ...


Really don't know but I go by the label rates on the product


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> True. Keep Atrazine away from the rootzone of desirable trees and shrubs. Ethofumesate also needs something like MSO as a surfactant. On a Florida lawn on alkaline sand where movement of Atrazine to places it does not belong is a high possibility, I would just as soon skip the Atrazine entirely. Ethofumesate applied repeatedly with a good surfactant works well. It is not a once and done program or even a one year and done program.


https://www.lawnsite.com/threads/i-killed-bermuda-in-st-augustine.300032/page-10

Im not 100% sure if your the "greendoctor" in this link. But there was some useful information including a YouTube video worth watching.

Also remember posting about this last year. That apparently someone found a formula that was once posted on the the UF IFAS extension website, but it was taken down and no longer exists. The goal of this formula was to kill Bermuda growing in St. Augustine grass. This formula consisted of:

1) Basagram (just purchased some)
2) Assulox
3) Atrazine (also recently purchased)
4) Ethofumesate

@Greendoc Do you know by chance what the mix rates were for these?

Something i noticed is that Bermuda seed heads start at around 4 inches in height. I usually cut my grass at 4.5 inches. Would it then be best to cut at 3.5 inches & bag the clippings?

Am also planning to dig a trench to place an underground barrier inorder to prevent further spread of the Bermuda into my Floratam. I remember listening to you on the GrassFactor talk about it but cannot remember the depth it need to be. Was it 1 foot or 2 feet deep?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I do not know exactly because the poster that came up with that treatment was extremely secretive. However, I speculate that per acre, it contained 1 quart Basagran, 1 lb Atrazine, 60 oz Asulox, and 1.5 gallons Prograss 1.5 EC. Methylated Seed oil or Crop Oil Concentrate was to be used as the surfactant.
Make note that Asulox is no longer intended for use on residential lawns, not because it presents a safety hazard, but because the manufacturer decided their return on investment to prove it was safe to use on residential lawns did not meet their financial goals.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> I do not know exactly because the poster that came up with that treatment was extremely secretive. However, I speculate that per acre, it contained 1 quart Basagran, 1 lb Atrazine, 60 oz Asulox, and 1.5 gallons Prograss 1.5 EC. Methylated Seed oil or Crop Oil Concentrate was to be used as the surfactant.
> Make note that Asulox is no longer intended for use on residential lawns, not because it presents a safety hazard, but because the manufacturer decided their return on investment to prove it was safe to use on residential lawns did not meet their financial goals.


Hmmmmm, thank you for the mix rates, im guessing the asulox might be why they may have pulled the formula from the website. Indeed after reading the entire novel worth of forum posts i did not notice the secrecy behind it. I think the guy wasnt sure what he would do with the formula, marketing wise i guess.

Maybe i will have to try it without the Asulox and see how that goes.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

No, do not give that guy the benefit of the doubt. He was an ***. No more no less. But as for the UF website, they stopped mentioning Asulox because it was re labeled for sod farm use only.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

@Greendoc I hear ya, cause had he shared it we might be a bit more advanced in knowledge regarding Bermuda grass kill in st. augustine. Can remember a few people asking him what he would charge and if he could drive out there for him to do it. Am going to start looking at the various google caches from years past and see if i find anything. Will start my search in 2007.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

So far found out the there was a product which goes by 2 names
1) Prompt - Atrazine + Bentazon (Basagran)
2) Laddock S12 - Atrazine + Bentazon (Basagran)
- i guess this just says there must have been some efficacy with the Atrazine/Basagran mix

Hmmmmm... Asulam (Asulox) - " On Bermudagrass use on `Tifway' only. Do not use a surfactant"


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Prompt+Prograss EC + Asulox was the actual mix. Since Prompt became RUP and then taken off of the market due to to it no longer being a viable product, I had to extrapolate rates.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Prompt+Prograss EC + Asulox was the actual mix. Since Prompt became RUP and then taken off of the market due to to it no longer being a viable product, I had to extrapolate rates.


Ahhhh, i see that makes sense. I appreciate that you did the hard part and the hard work. So interesting to see all the name changes for various products some changing numerous times, while Dimension for example has always been the same. However surely there should be some data out there on this combination i would think? You may have already seen the image below but it is encouraging. The Atrazine + Ethofumesate combination. It makes me wonder just how much of a factor was Basagran in this mix as it targets more the broadleaf weeds.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)




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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

I believe this shows the tax mix results of Asulox with Atrazine.

https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/flgre/article/1981win36.pdf


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Okay so then it makes sense to say that Atrazine boosted the control of both Asulox, as well as Ethofumesate? My guess is that Basagran (broadleaf control) was only added to the mix as a kill 2 birds with one stone sort of thing especially since it was already part of the Prompt 5L formula. I guess im partly trying to figure if this guy with this special formula was telling the full *truth* as well as how/why it works. Just dont want to go off what one guy said in a forum. It does seem a bit suspect that he found the miracle solution, but not share. Thats like me saying, hey i built a Ferrari from scratch, but i cannot show it to anyone. One part i do not understand is that FAQ says do not mix Asulox with any other Chemical yet they are using either Atrazine or Simizine. Also i understand that Asulam is banned for residential use. However this might not alway be the case as Atrazine was once banned too.

Am now curious why use combinations of either Atrazine or Simizine. Why not use both?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Basagran + Atrazine was a synergistic combination on sedges and broadleaves. You are probably familiar with unmaintained or improperly maintained St Augustine and how it turns into a disaster area composed of all manner of weeds Bermuda being part of them. I know that guy knew of and used some products that were off label. But as a commercial applicator, it was not in his best interest to broadcast that. Florida enforcement was literally looking for lawn applicators using Asulox on lawns once it lost its labeling.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Oh yes, im all too familiar with unmaintained st augustine lawn. Also familiar with how expensive it can be to get back to normal. Sounds like that guy was taking wayyy to many risks.

Hmmmm so then would it be safe to say that Basagran did not play a role in the control of Bermuda? However though sedges are not easy thing to kill, and a product would need to be able to translocate down the entire root system. I wonder if this synergistic played a role in the control of Bermuda. My guess is that it went something like:

Atrazine = suppresses Bermuda
Atrazine + Basagran = Really really suppresses Bermuda
- note: this is just an assumption


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> Oh yes, im all too familiar with unmaintained st augustine lawn. Also familiar with how expensive it can be to get back to normal. Sounds like that guy was taking wayyy to many risks.
> 
> Hmmmm so then would it be safe to say that Basagran did not play a role in the control of Bermuda? However though sedges are not easy thing to kill, and a product would need to be able to translocate down the entire root system. I wonder if this synergistic played a role in the control of Bermuda. My guess is that it went something like:
> 
> ...


There's nothing in the basagran label that says the mix would work on bermuda. In fact, it's safe on bermuda so if your expecting atrazine lookout because the homeowners atrazine is not near strong enough at 4%.

Change my mind


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

mjh648 said:


> Have you guys seen this document? Bermuda suppression in SA starts on page 19 of the PDF.
> 
> https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.543.4659&rep=rep1&type=pdf
> 
> ...


I've been reading this and I'm getting some different from you. 


Ok etho at 3 lb/a is equal to 1.1 oz/1k. Which is double the recommended rate by rightline. I may spray this rate next time to see if I get any different result though.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > Oh yes, im all too familiar with unmaintained st augustine lawn. Also familiar with how expensive it can be to get back to normal. Sounds like that guy was taking wayyy to many risks.
> ...


That's fair. Was searching for the mechanics of how it all works. For example maybe the Basagram helps the Atrazine to better translocate throughout the root system. But i dunno, All of my neighbors (right, left, front, back) all have Bermuda infestations. My neighbors to the right of me have a very severe Bermuda infestation as well as Torpedo infestation. I believe this was caused due to the mower guys they hired. They would mow the yard across the street which was full of weeds, and then come and mow my neighbors yard. Just dont want to have to spray Atrazine every single year. Maybe i will just use it this year and see how much i can back up the Bermuda.

Saw you had already done an Atrazine/Ethofumesate combo on your lawn (a couple of years ago), but were only somewhat happy with the results. Did you ever do another application after that?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > kb02gt said:
> ...


I'm still running that mix this year I just added mso to it. Happy with the progress I've made but it's a SLOW process. Talk to you neighbors about their issue as well and come up with a plan for everyone to fight it together otherwise it will be hard for you.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Thats a really good idea. I know them well. One doesnt mind and would be for having them removed the other doesnt really care, as long as its green they are happy. And the other unfortunately is not in a place where they can do anything about it.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

CenlaLowell said:


> mjh648 said:
> 
> 
> > Have you guys seen this document? Bermuda suppression in SA starts on page 19 of the PDF.
> ...


So Im reading this different than both of you. 
Rightline label has 4LBs of active ingredient per gallon (128oz). 
So a 3Lb/Ac application would be 96oz. 
96oz / 43.56 = 2.2oz/1000.

Which is 4x the label rate of 24oz/ac or 9/16oz/1k.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

nitrobass24 said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > mjh648 said:
> ...


Keep reading and it will break it down to .50 oz /1k


It's all in this pic


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Here's what I can tell you before I went on vacation I sprayed the mix in spots and all those spots the Bermuda is BROWN. Next season I'm not spraying the mix until may and june


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

My mix definitely worked as well, but I hit the pause button because I lost a lot of grass to a fungus. I will try again in the future.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?

Also, do you think adding some propiconazole to the mix would irritate the Bermuda even more?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

kb02gt said:


> Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?
> 
> Also, do you think adding some propiconazole to the mix would irritate the Bermuda even more?


I posted my recipe at https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=366543#p366543

I think the propiconazole would be counterproductive at higher temps.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

ionicatoms said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?
> ...


Thanks for the link.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

kb02gt said:


> Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?
> 
> Also, do you think adding some propiconazole to the mix would irritate the Bermuda even more?


Propiconazole would irritate the St Augustine even more than it does the Bermuda. If there were ever a grass sensitive to the effects of growth regulators, St Augustine is it.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

@CenlaLowell I agree that the Etho Label States .5oz (9/16oz) on its own label. I was simply pointing out that the article that @mjh648 posted was 4x the label rate, which leads to me to believe the label is being very conservative and that bumping up our etho amounts should be ok.

Back to your experiment...
Did spraying when it was hot do any damage to your St. Aug?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

nitrobass24 said:


> @CenlaLowell I agree that the Etho Label States .5oz (9/16oz) on its own label. I was simply pointing out that the article that @mjh648 posted was 4x the label rate, which leads to me to believe the label is being very conservative and that bumping up our etho amounts should be ok.
> 
> Back to your experiment...
> Did spraying when it was hot do any damage to your St. Aug?


No damage to the st Augustine at all


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Well i know what I am doing at lunch time....see ya Bermuda


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

This is the area I sprayed on 6/7/21 now it looks like this


Now look closer and you will see healthy st Augustine here



Now I need to figure out how to get st Augustine to run faster!!!


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Greendoc said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?
> ...


@Greendoc What fungicide would you recommend for St Aug when its hot outside?


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

That looks pretty good to me. For what its worth, its always seemed that seaweed seems to stimulate runners. I have not data on that. Just from all the applications ive done i always notice a bit of a boost afterwards.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > Curious, what were the final mix rates you guys ended up using?
> ...


Hmmmmm, looks like i will be saving the Propiconazole for the winter in that case.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

@CenlaLowell Do you forsee doing another application this year?

Also may want to use a good dethatcher (am using "Nature's Biological Dethatcher). I find they work fairly well, after just 1 week you can see the thatch almost starting to melt. I know i know, i know the flack that the Next products get. Like RGS & Air 8 , honestly cannot vouch for the rest and ended up throwing out 1/2 gallon of the Next Humic Acid because i feel it messed up the test areas of my lawn each time i tried. Kept give it chance, after chance, after chance. Am still up in the air about the MicroGreen as well. However i do vouch for the Next Air 8 & RGS. And truly notice new shoots everytime i use the RGS specifically. Its basically Sea Kelp & Humic acid combined. Simple Lawn Solutions also has a similar product in a Blue & White bottle called .... well i'll just post the link: https://simplelawnsolutions.com/collections/soil-treatments/products/super-seaweed-32oz


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

I use the N-ext products and they seem to work for me. I had major compaction before and now have nice soil.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> @CenlaLowell Do you forsee doing another application this year?
> 
> Also may want to use a good dethatcher (am using "Nature's Biological Dethatcher). I find they work fairly well, after just 1 week you can see the thatch almost starting to melt. I know i know, i know the flack that the Next products get. Like RGS & Air 8 , honestly cannot vouch for the rest and ended up throwing out 1/2 gallon of the Next Humic Acid because i feel it messed up the test areas of my lawn each time i tried. Kept give it chance, after chance, after chance. Am still up in the air about the MicroGreen as well. However i do vouch for the Next Air 8 & RGS. And truly notice new shoots everytime i use the RGS specifically. Its basically Sea Kelp & Humic acid combined. Simple Lawn Solutions also has a similar product in a Blue & White bottle called .... well i'll just post the link: https://simplelawnsolutions.com/collections/soil-treatments/products/super-seaweed-32oz


I don't use any of those products because beautiful lawns have been accomplished before n ext or any of those companies were in existence.

Npk and pesticides all I use.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

I TRY to stick to the label as much as possible so I've done my two blanket spray's for the year.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > @CenlaLowell Do you forsee doing another application this year?
> ...


There has to be 50 different products out there with "seaweed ascophyllum nodosum" in it. Im sure in the 1970s it was called something else. Same goes for herbacides, fungicides, etc, its all about the ingredients.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> I TRY to stick to the label as much as possible so I've done my two blanket spray's for the year.


Thanks, will definitely do the same.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Original Recipe (ingredients only)
------------------------------
1) Assulox
2) Basagram
3) Atrazine
4) Ethofumesate

- my guess is #1 and #2 were strictly used for other weeds and had no effect on Bermuda?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> Original Recipe (ingredients only)
> ------------------------------
> 1) Assulox
> 2) Basagram
> ...


If anyone wants to purchase the first two I would do a split with them to try it out.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> kb02gt said:
> 
> 
> > Original Recipe (ingredients only)
> ...


I would but unfortunately still have to get the ethofumesate.

I do know however this version of Basagran is on sale: https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Broadloom-Sedge-Control/dp/B07N7LS3SC/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=basagran&qid=1623966807&sr=8-8 . Had purchased the 8oz version a few months ago.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > kb02gt said:
> ...


Thanks for that link now only to find auslox in a smaller size


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Does anyone know what the max temperature rate for Atrazine is?



CenlaLowell said:


> Thanks for that link now only to find auslox in a smaller size


Tthink would be good for the company as well, as it would enable them to sell more product.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Just did my first spray of the season.

32oz Atrazine 4%
3oz Etho4sc
2ox Asolux
1tbsp COS


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

nitrobass24 said:


> Just did my first spray of the season.
> 
> 32oz Atrazine 4%
> 3oz Etho4sc
> ...


Nice. Please keep us updated. Watching this thread with a good amount of optimism.


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## leefjl63 (Dec 23, 2020)

What's COS?


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Crop oil surfactant


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## leefjl63 (Dec 23, 2020)

Thanks Nitro. Please keep us updated.


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## woofermazing (Jun 17, 2021)

How much of your success with something like this depends on your cultivar?

Our new home has floratam in the front and palmetto in the back... Well at one point it was probably all palmetto. The irrigation system was a mess. Now that everything is getting water the difference in spread rate over bare areas is pretty staggering.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

It's too early to make a definitive progress report, but I THINK it worked pretty well even though I have Palmetto.

I would say success seems to depend mostly on 1) watering sufficiently, 2) cutting high, and 3) making sure you don't lose ground to fungus/insects.

I will provide a final report in a couple months because a full 12 months will have elapsed by then.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> I will provide a final report in a couple months because a full 12 months will have elapsed by then.


I decided to go ahead and show the progression even though it's still a little early.

April 2022 vs May 2020


April 2021 (after treatment) vs April 2022


Sorry the lighting isn't better. I still have Bermuda but I'm seeing much less of it. I'm probably not going to treat with Ethofumesate this year, but am not disappointed with the results so far.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Are you guys watering this stuff in or letting it's dry on the foliage?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

nitrobass24 said:


> Are you guys watering this stuff in or letting it's dry on the foliage?


I checked my journal, didn't find any evidence of watering it in, so I must have sprayed and let it dry. Have no idea if that is a preferred method.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Yea that's what I did as well. My Bermuda is thriving though! It's like I didn't do anything.

I know it's only been a week but I would have expected to see some damage


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

nitrobass24 said:


> Yea that's what I did as well. My Bermuda is thriving though! It's like I didn't do anything.
> 
> I know it's only been a week but I would have expected to see some damage


Give it another week. My first follow-up report was 16 days after my first application and the Bermuda was looking quite terrible a month later -- although that may have been partially explained by a fungal outbreak. I'm under the impression that timing for the first app is critical. You're supposed to treat right at the beginning of Bermuda green-up.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Yea I think you are right, unfortunately we had 30mph winds and storms when it first started to green up and then I was out of town for 5-days. Hopefully still early enough though.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

ionicatoms said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > I will provide a final report in a couple months because a full 12 months will have elapsed by then.
> ...


Looking really really good. Nice work, and thanks for the update.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

nitrobass24 said:


> Yea I think you are right, unfortunately we had 30mph winds and storms when it first started to green up and then I was out of town for 5-days. Hopefully still early enough though.


Agree as well, anything that will do a good job on your stoleniforous (yeah its probably spelled wrong, lol) grasses such as Bermuda and torpedo will most likely take a while as the chemical has to translocate throughout the entire root structure. Usually not the case with your more broadleaf weeds.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Ethofumesate and Atrazine can take 21-30 days to show effect. Ethofumesate may not necessarily do much on the first application. Effect is cumulative. Assulox takes 7-14 days to show effect.


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## pjt (Aug 3, 2020)

I'm spraying a combo of Ethofumesate and Simazine.



What rate are you all using for Ethofumesate? The amount of Ethofumesate from the table above is quadruple the label rate for Bermudagrass suppression. The Simazine from the table aligns with the max label rate.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

Where is the screenshot from? Hard to reply intelligently without the context around the table.

If you can share that I'll look at my notes tonight when I get home.


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## pjt (Aug 3, 2020)

nitrobass24 said:


> Where is the screenshot from? Hard to reply intelligently without the context around the table.
> 
> If you can share that I'll look at my notes tonight when I get home.


It's from the 4th post in this thread.


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## woofermazing (Jun 17, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > I will provide a final report in a couple months because a full 12 months will have elapsed by then.
> ...


That's a really good result.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

pjt said:


> What rate are you all using for Ethofumesate?


I see at least three of us have already posted the rates we used in prior posts. Here's a link to mine.



ionicatoms said:


> In summary, I used:
> 
> On 2200 Sq. F
> 1.25 floz Rightline Ethofumesate 4 SC
> ...


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## pjt (Aug 3, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> I see at least three of us have already posted the rates we used in prior posts. Here's a link to mine.
> 
> 
> ionicatoms said:
> ...


Thanks! I re-read the entire thread again. Just wanted to ensure I didn't make a math error and grossly overapply the Ethofumesate.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> Sorry the lighting isn't better.


Here's one with better lighting. Top is 2022, bottom is 2021.



These are 2022 vs 2020. I figure the "close up" view may provide you with a better view of the Bermuda.





Guys, I can't tell you how happy I am to be seeing less Bermuda. That stuff looks awful in St. Aug.


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## nitrobass24 (Mar 6, 2021)

nitrobass24 said:


> Just did my first spray of the season.
> 
> 32oz Atrazine 4%
> 3oz Etho4sc
> ...


Just did my second app...about two weeks late, there is definitely some good killoff and St Aug is trying to spread, hopefully this second round will really knock it back!


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> I will provide a final report in a couple months because a full 12 months will have elapsed by then.


I forgot about this. Yes, the whole program works.

Here's a one year progression photo. The top photo shows the Bermuda in dark green, surrounded by St. Aug in yellowing green. This was taken a year ago, after applying Etho/Atrazine twice in the spring and then applying PGR in the summer.

The bottom photo is current state. No PGR so it's hard to see Bermuda (there's not enough of it to even worry about), but I am still very pleased with the results.


----------

