# Ammonium Sulfate to all Herbicides by default?



## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Or does it only make sense in certain apps?

Cheers


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@MichiganGreen I moved this to the cool season forum since it is not a journal.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I use it in pretty much everything. You are essentially increasing the effectiveness of your application. With glyphosate, AMS binds with hard minerals in the water so it leaves the glyphosate available in solution instead of binding with those minerals. Other than glyphosate, with other herbicides, it serves as an N source to encourage the plant to grow and in theory, help to carry in the herbicide. I also noticed that when AMS dries, it get sticky so that can help to hold the herbicide to the leaf surface.

If you want to maximize your herbicide efficacy, I would use some or all these options:
N source: AMS or urea (AMS is probably better since you don't need urease or time for that reaction to have available N to the plant)
Surfactant: NIS, MSO, etc.
PH: many herbicides are more stable in ph below 6 or even 5. Lower the PH of your solution. Acidic solutions can also help to break down the waxy layer to increase penetration into the plant. (AMS does lower the PH anyway)

Of course, always check the label as some herbicides do have specific recommendations for additions. Some herbicides should have an alkaline solution so again, check the label first.

Check out this article.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I also add AS to my herbicides when safe to do so. I was clued in to that practice this year, and it's my standard now.

A few weeks ago, I mixed weed b gone CCO with AS to help control some pests. I happened to see some multi-tillered crabgrass along the way. I thought, "Well, why don't I just experiment?" So, I hit the crabgrass. 
In 10 days or so, the crabgrass was toast. Permanent kill? I don't know, but it sure didn't look like it could recover.

I'm not sure if others have had any luck with triclopyr and crabgrass, but I certainly wasn't expecting the severity of injury without something like quinclorac.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

social port said:


> I also add AS to my herbicides when safe to do so. I was clued in to that practice this year, and it's my standard now.
> 
> A few weeks ago, I mixed weed b gone CCO with AS to help control some pests. I happened to see some multi-tillered crabgrass along the way. I thought, "Well, why don't I just experiment?" So, I hit the crabgrass.
> In 10 days or so, the crabgrass was toast. Permanent kill? I don't know, but it sure didn't look like it could recover.
> ...


So you have used AS enough to say you've noticed a distinct advantage? How far does it take you? I want to spend 10 bucks or less to give it a try....are they all the same or some better...


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > I also add AS to my herbicides when safe to do so. I was clued in to that practice this year, and it's my standard now.
> ...


I would say, yes. But keep in mind that these are casual observations. I'm not really making any kind of strict comparison that you could hang your hat on.
I use the AS that Mightyquinn links in his FAS thread.https://smile.amazon.com/Ammonium-Sulfate-Fertilizer-Greenway-Biotech/dp/B00CTWSJ00/ref=wl_mb_wl_huc_mrai_1_dp?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B00CTWSJ00&pd_rd_r=B3535HEEAY778WWG2GJJ&pd_rd_w=3OnqB&pd_rd_wg=WnFSw&tag=lawnforum-20
I've gone through less than two bags this year, using about 1-3 oz. (weight) per gallon.

I use it for hard-to-treat plants or for plants that normally take two apps (e.g., clover). I don't know how it would turn out if AS were mixed with a preM or a blanket app of tenacity. This is to say that I supplement AS for postM spot spraying rather than for blanket apps.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

social port said:


> MichiganGreen said:
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> > social port said:
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Hmm. Let me ask you this. Is it supposed to work "better" or "faster"...or both? Faster would be nice since I'm up against the end of the season and want to get the bentgrass sucking it up asap


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> Hmm. Let me ask you this. Is it supposed to work "better" or "faster"...or both? Faster would be nice since I'm up against the end of the season and want to get the bentgrass sucking it up asap


SJL seems to address some of this in the post above, and SJL is likely a far better guide than me on the chemistry of these herbicides. In general, I think it is safe to assume that AS tricks the plant into taking in more of the herbicide than it otherwise would. It also encourages growth, which is very helpful when you are trying to treat a stubborn weed (or any weed, for that matter). Beyond that, I suspect that the particular effects of AS on each herbicide varies. This is the case for glyphosate, at least, where the AS helps to free up some of the binding that happens with glyphosate, thereby making the glyphosate more available to the plant--and that is exactly what you want.

Faster kills may sound good, but you may sacrifice root death for leaf death. For hard-to-kill plants, you want as much herbicide to get to the roots as possible. AS can help with that.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

social port said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. Let me ask you this. Is it supposed to work "better" or "faster"...or both? Faster would be nice since I'm up against the end of the season and want to get the bentgrass sucking it up asap
> ...


Is there anything specific brand wise to buy...anything i search on Amazon keeps advertising it as a flower conditioner to adjust the ph. Am I searching the right thing?

Sorry, hard to do two things at once I'm on vacation northern Michigan.

You know you're a lawn nut when you cant stay away from herbicides and AS when looking out at this view


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> Is there anything specific brand wise to buy...anything i search on Amazon keeps advertising it as a flower conditioner to adjust the ph. Am I searching the right thing?


See the amazon link above. That is an excellent choice. 


MichiganGreen said:


> You know you're a lawn nut when you cant stay away from herbicides and AS when looking out at this view


I understand. Anytime that I'm on vacation, I've got radar on for well-kept lawns in the area.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

social port said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > Is there anything specific brand wise to buy...anything i search on Amazon keeps advertising it as a flower conditioner to adjust the ph. Am I searching the right thing?
> ...


Glad you understand

Anything under 15 bucks? My tenacity purchase sent me straight to the doghouse....I'm fighting to get out and this might cement myself a bed outside for the foreseeable future


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

5 lb bag from greenway biotech for about 16.
Alpha chemicals (different brand) has a bag for about 9


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I use 2.5 oz per gal. Using spray grade is the best so you don't have fillers, binders, or dirt. I'm just cheap so I use the AMS which isn't spray grade. At $35 for a 50 lbs bag, I fert the lawn with it and use it in my sprays. On occasion, I'll get clogging of the sprayer but I'm not sure if there was dirt which fell into the sprayer or if it was in the AMS. As granules, you do have to agitate it more to dissolve it. Spray grade generally comes in a more powered form or fine salt like granules and is more pure. If you use AMS to fert in early spring and late fall anyway, then you already have it...

Regarding AMS and herbicides, if you are interested in reading it, I'll post up the research on it. Otherwise, I just use it with pretty much everything I spray. If you haven't already, check the PH of your tap water and then add your 2.5 oz AMS/1 gal to it and recheck the PH. It should be between 5-6 if your water was around 7. If you have alkaline water, you can add citric acid to lower it even more. (You only really need to do this the first time since your water supply probably doesn't change ph. Now you know the rates for the future.) The acidic solution will increase penetration. Keep in mind, the herbicide can also lower the PH of your solution. I always combine it with NIS or some other surfactant so you have 3 additional things to help increase the effectiveness of your chosen herbicide. N source to increase growth and aid absorption, surfactant to reduce runoff and increase leaf coverage, and acid for penetration. I like to add my mix in this order: AMS, mix, herbicide, mix, test and use citric acid if needed, surfactant (and dye if you want). As a note, for iron, I add AMS, citric acid, check ph, then add the iron last as the citric acid should be in solution to chelate the iron but that isn't the case with herbicides.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

social port said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm. Let me ask you this. Is it supposed to work "better" or "faster"...or both? Faster would be nice since I'm up against the end of the season and want to get the bentgrass sucking it up asap
> ...


I'm with you on this one. Faster is nice but if you just burn off the foliage the plant will just come back. I'd rather it be slow but effective. AMS helps to get the herbicide into the plant. If you increased the rate of herbicide instead, it might burn off the foliage and not get translocated into the roots. All these additions are to help break through the waxy layer on the leaf as well as get past the fine hairs which increase the water tension. Reducing the water tension so it doesn't bead up will increase coverage of the herbicide across the leaf surface and increase the effectiveness of the same amount of herbicide.

I would use all these additions to kill bent. Something easy like a dandylion, I probably wouldn't bother. They are toast as just the hint of herbicide. Bent isn't so susceptible.



> "Nitrogen Fertilizer
> Within the last 15 years, nitrogen fertilizers have been more frequently added to the spray solution as an adjuvant to increase herbicide activity. Ammonium salts (NH4+) appear to be the active component of these fertilizer solutions and have improved the performance consistency on some weeds. It is still unclear how ammonium salts improve herbicide performance. Herbicides that appear to benefit from the addition of ammonium are the relatively polar, weak acid herbicides such as Basagran, the sulfonylureas (Accent, Beacon, Classic, and Pinnacle, etc.), and the imidazolinones (Pursuit and Raptor). Nitrogen fertilizers may replace surfactant or crop oil concentrate with some of the contact-type herbicides, but are usually added in addition to surfactant or crop oil concentrate with systemic products.
> 
> Velvetleaf and some grassy annual weeds in particular have been responsive to the addition of nitrogen fertilizer in the spray mix. In general, velvetleaf control has improved by as much as 10 to 25 percent by the addition of an ammonium-based fluid fertilizer (28, 30, or 32 percent UAN, 10-34-0, or 21-0-0), compared to crop oil concentrate or surfactant. Common rates are 2 to 4 quart/acre of 28, 30, or 32 percent UAN, 1 quart/acre of 10-34-0, or 17 pounds/100 gallons dry ammonium sulfate. Some broadleaves and grasses show little or no response with the inclusion of ammonium fertilizer solutions.
> ...


Source


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> social port said:
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> > MichiganGreen said:
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All great stuff thanks guys. Yeah not nearly as concerned about most of the broadleaf, bentgrass though is a bit different


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

With bent, this is from the label:

Control of bentgrass (Agrostis spp.) and nimblewill (Muhlenbergia schreberi) - Apply Tenacity at 5 fl. oz. per acre in at least 30 gallons of water per acre at two to three week interval for up to three applications. Apply with a NIS surfactant. Bentgrass control may be more effective in the late summer/early fall just prior to onset of renewed bentgrass growth, than spring/early summer applications.

From this source:
The addition of AMS enhanced mesotrione efficacy 9, 6, or 9% (or greater) for giant ragweed, horseweed, and Palmer amaranth control, respectively. Mesotrione should be applied at near neutral carrier water pH, hardness < 200 mg L−1, and with AMS for achieving optimum weed control."

This study wasn't on bentgrass but on other weeds which all saw an increase in efficacy. I would add AMS.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Suburban Jungle Life Do you have an opinion on device to test PH? Was looking at this.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B08HLXBBK4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A2BCNR3ZWPGOXB&psc=1


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lately, SBL hasnt been very active on the site. I use a meter like that to measure the pH of the tank liquids.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

thanks @g-man. I normally don't mix in bucket and dump into sprayer so I guess I'm just going to stick my hand in my backpack sprayer and hope I don't drop it in there hah. Trying to get this AMS down pat. Bought a 2# bag from Greenway Biotech to play around with.


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