# Almost Ready to Throw in the Towel on Bermuda



## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ok guys (and gals).. I've just about had it.

Two seasons ago my Yukon bermuda was awesome. It was the first season with my Jake Tri-King, was mowing frequently at .75", since my yard is very bumpy, but it looked pretty great. The next season was awful for many reasons:

- EVERYTHING went bad on the Jake. I'll spare you the list of what all I had to either fix or replace. Thus, I mostly hacked at it with my 42" Deere rotary. It wasn't good.
- February was suddenly/strangely cold and wet. This left me with Spring Dead Spot. Since I had already put down pre-emergent, the stolons didn't really start filling in for me until mid June, so the lawn was only 95% filled in before winter came. 
- I sprayed Eagle fungicide to try and combat the SDS, Bifen XT for bugs, plus supplemented with a foliar Potash for winter hardiness.

This past winter / spring:
- Just cold / wet altogether again! 
- Very late spring
- To my chagrin, put down pre-emergent again, hoping that somehow the SDS and winterkill wouldn't show up again. No such luck.

I'm left now with this:





 So.. as I said I'm ready to pack it in. Of course my Zoysia in the back yard looks great. Also, the pure stands of Yukon I have elsewhere in the yard that I even seeded LATE last summer look good as well, with no kill or SDS. Can someone please advise on next steps? Do you see mostly winterkill this year, SDS, or something else?

As a quick side note, we did have concreate sidewalks and a driveway put in last year, late in july, and it did a number on the area in question, but not out into the yard as shown, just mainly around the sidewalk. So, some of the rough patches are a result.

So here's what I've pondered:

- going nuclear on this spot, getting on my dad's small tractor with a blade and digging it up down to 2-3 inches, putting in new soil and reseeding with Yukon. The reason I'm considering this is because years ago now when I first seeded, I threw down a stupid store-bought mix of Mohawk and common or whatever, which (according to NTEP trials) isn't nearly as cold hardy and as SDS resistant as Yukon.

- digging as mentioned, but pulling stolons from my stands of pure Yukon in the other part of the yard, and planting them.

- waiting it out, going nuts with the garden weasel (like I did last year), mowing often, and spoon feeding Urea once a week.

- Using my Proplugger and getting plugs from the Yukon stand

So, regardless of the route I take, I will certainly do a double app this fall of either Clearys or Eagle for the SDS (unless you guys suggest something better), then probably supplement once again with Potash, and hope for the best this winter.

Also, speaking of, I do NOT think now that's it's a benefit for me to let my bermuda get taller for winter. I think this might only accelerate the SDS and other issues by leaving all of that thatch and dead matter to sit there. Thoughts?

Any/all suggestions tips at this point I would greatly appreciate.

Thanks!


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

You've perhaps explained this before, but is there a reason you want bermuda in what is presumably zone 6b/6a? You seem to me to be firmly in cool season territory to me.

With that said, if it were me I'd go option 3 or 4. As ill suited as Mohawk or common is for your part of the world, that doesn't mean digging up 2-3 inches of soil will get rid of it. It almost certainly won't. If you think it's the old variety that is dying over the winter, I think your best bet is just to encourage more and more Yukon in there, and it will win in the end if it's not suffering the same winter damage.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> You've perhaps explained this before, but is there a reason you want bermuda in what is presumably zone 6b/6a? You seem to me to be firmly in cool season territory to me.
> 
> With that said, if it were me I'd go option 3 or 4. As ill suited as Mohawk or common is for your part of the world, that doesn't mean digging up 2-3 inches of soil will get rid of it. It almost certainly won't. If you think it's the old variety that is dying over the winter, I think your best bet is just to encourage more and more Yukon in there, and it will win in the end if it's not suffering the same winter damage.


Thanks @Bermuda_Rooster, Yeah, I'm leaning towards 3 and 4 also, especially since I already have Yukon in places, and can transplant. Thanks for the input.

As far as me wanting bermuda, I've just always liked the look of it, with it's blue-green color and tight growing habit. I've had cool season grass most of my life, and since we're in the Ohio river valley, it gets very hot/humid in the summer, and sometimes burns up much of it. Also, I know zone denial is a real thing, lol, but I think we're actually in a microclimate of the coolest part of zone 7. I've been closely monitoring temps for years now, and we rarely see close to 0, and most winters only see 1 night in single digits. This winter was a cold one with low temps of 3, 3, and 8.

With all of that said, bermuda is actually common around here, with my local golf course recently replacing all of their fairways with it, since the bluegrass was constantly getting burnt up. Many lawns do have it, but most people probably don't know what they have yet. Lol.

And yes, I've made my case before, but here's a quick list of zone 7 and above plants I have in my landscaping that come back year after year and do just fine:

Purple Heart, Camellia, Eucalyptus, dwarf palmetto, Gardenia, Monkey Puzzle, Longleaf Pine, Slash Pine..


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

andymac7 said:


> As far as me wanting bermuda, I've just always liked the look of it, with it's blue-green color and tight growing habit. I've had cool season grass most of my life, and since we're in the Ohio river valley, it gets very hot/humid in the summer, and sometimes burns up much of it. Also, I know zone denial is a real thing, lol, but I think we're actually in a microclimate of the coolest part of zone 7. I've been closely monitoring temps for years now, and we rarely see close to 0, and most winters only see 1 night in single digits. This winter was a cold one with low temps of 3, 3, and 8.


Ah, perhaps you're indeed in a transition zone-ish microclimate, in which case . . . that sucks! I prefer cool season grasses, but hot summers are just a killer. I've lived in the southern end of the transition zone most of my life and just couldn't keep cool season grasses alive without spending a fortune.


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## MOJOERASER (11 mo ago)

You will never grow grass if you keep putting down pre emergents. What area are you in ?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

MOJOERASER said:


> You will never grow grass if you keep putting down pre emergents.


I'm scratching my head at this statement. What about pre-emergent keeps grass from growing. Not to brag, but I use the heck out of pre-emergents and I grow so pretty decent turf. Are you referring to seeded grass not germinating? That's not going to apply in this case as he has established warm-season grass.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Bermuda in Ohio that's has to be hard to grow. Yeah you would be better to change that turf out.


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## DFW St Aug (10 mo ago)

Eagle (myclobutanil) only has an efficacy rating of 1 out of 4 for SDS by this resource:

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/diseases-in-turf/spring-dead-spot-in-turf/

If you look at the USDA map for Ohio, the microclimate you are referring to seems to be the difference between 6a and 6b in places, but no areas are a 7.


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## MOJOERASER (11 mo ago)

I have read on several websites and YouTube channels (specifically Ron Henry and How to with Doc )that say do not put down pre emergents while and before seeding it acts like a barrier and it prevents new growth below that level . Now you might still be able to grow grass but Imagine it would be towards the end of the pre emergents coverage period. He mentioned that he layed down pre emergents both times and that could be the problem for the areas not growing.

Also if he is in Ohio then that's a whole other problem because it's not in the transition zone for Bermuda he needs cool season grasses


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> Bermuda in Ohio that's has to be hard to grow. Yeah you would be better to change that turf out.


Have you tried it? . In the area I live in Ohio? So.. instead of providing evidence once again that I am in fact in zone 7, I'll just paste this in really quick. It's the map I trust over USDA, since the data is updated more frequently, and omits much of the ultra cold spell from the 80's.

https://www.arborday.org/media/map_change.cfm

So, if I had it to do over, yes, I would have went with all Zoysia. But ya know.. hindsight. But again, why would golf courses around here (there are multiple.. in more northerly locations than I am) spend all of that time and money sprigging with bermuda if it was just all going to die?

As far as not being able to grow grass with pre-emergents @MOJOERASER, I've certainly never heard of that. Lol. I do wonder if it hinders runners/stolons from tacking roots down, and have even contemplating skipping it in the spring altogether.


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## callmestevee_o (Nov 11, 2021)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> andymac7 said:
> 
> 
> > As far as me wanting bermuda, I've just always liked the look of it, with it's blue-green color and tight growing habit. I've had cool season grass most of my life, and since we're in the Ohio river valley, it gets very hot/humid in the summer, and sometimes burns up much of it. Also, I know zone denial is a real thing, lol, but I think we're actually in a microclimate of the coolest part of zone 7. I've been closely monitoring temps for years now, and we rarely see close to 0, and most winters only see 1 night in single digits. This winter was a cold one with low temps of 3, 3, and 8.
> ...


Off topic but how if your lawn doing? I purchased the same seed as you and plan on sowing the week after Memorial Day once I get a paver patio installed. Is it dense and performing to your liking?


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

callmestevee_o said:


> Off topic but how if your lawn doing? I purchased the same seed as you and plan on sowing the week after Memorial Day once I get a paver patio installed. Is it dense and performing to your liking?


Honestly, no-- it's just not there yet, but I don't think all the blame lies with the seed/varieties. Could be that none of it does! It started greening up faster than my front (419) but is coming in very sparse this Spring and is very slow to get going. I think it's a combination of things:

(1) I had trouble maintaining the height I wanted and so let it get too tall last year. this year I will be hitting the PGR early and often once it's totally filled back in.
(2) The soil was, and is, complete garbage. Slick, dense red clay with no life-- and masses of construction debris and rocks buried just under the surface. It's been almost 2.5 years since construction ended and I'm still finding things to dig up.
(3) I just don't baby the back like I do the front in terms of precise applications and more frequent mowings.
(4) It's less than 2 years old.

I think all of this can get better with time and attention, and the PGR should help me buy some time to give it attention in ways other than mowing.


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## DFW St Aug (10 mo ago)

andymac7 said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > Bermuda in Ohio that's has to be hard to grow. Yeah you would be better to change that turf out.
> ...


So USDA says you are 6 and the link you posted says 6-7 (based on the zip code for the town in your profile). So at best you are in the transition zone for the transition zone. I think the reason your lawn took so long to fill in last season is because of this. You definitely have an uphill yearly battle if you want to maintain Bermuda there. In terms of SDS, it looks like Kabuto is a good option (see the link I posed earlier).


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > Bermuda in Ohio that's has to be hard to grow. Yeah you would be better to change that turf out.
> ...


No I haven't tried it but this is all I need to know



😀

Now with that outta the way. No one said it's impossible, but that it would seem to be very difficult to accomplish this. Comparing the average lawn to a golf course should not be done. There's plenty of reason for this.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

^^ This is why I've only seeded/sprigged Yukon the last few years. Hybrids such as Tahoma 31 and Latitude 36 might be even hardier, but the textures wouldn't match, now that I have Yukon.

There are many maps showing the transition zone, and many of them show my location in it.

https://www.greensidelawncare.com/how-to-select-a-grass-or-sod-type/
https://lawncarenut.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360058814093-How-do-I-choose-a-Lawn-Plan-
http://turpinfarms.squarespace.com/the-transition-zone

I could go on, but you can see the last map even shows Columbus inside the transition zone! Lol. That's probably stretching it a bit.

So anyway, I concede once again that in the beginning that I should have either gone with something like an SPF-30 Bluegrass or Zoysia, and at this point the lawn would have probably been much better.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Blumuda might not be a bad option or maybe a Meyers Zoysia. I think the Blumuda is the better route though since you can mow them both relatively low.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

andymac7 said:


> There are many maps showing the transition zone, and many of them show my location in it.
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


I don't find any need to further argue your decision re: bermuda-- it's your decision! But I did want to comment for anyone reading this in the future that when one is in the transition zone, it can be natural to assume that perhaps you have the choice of warm season vs. cool season grasses, and to an extent this is true . . . but the reality is that in the transition zone, growing _either_ group of grasses is challenging-- neither is a good fit. Andy is seeing that with his bermuda just as I saw it with my fescue in the past.

The in-between climate of the transition zone is a bug, not a feature.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Redtwin said:


> Blumuda might not be a bad option or maybe a Meyers Zoysia. I think the Blumuda is the better route though since you can mow them both relatively low.


Yes, @Redtwin, this has intrigued me for sure. So would I just overseed the blue into it this fall? It's hard to see how bluegrass and bermuda would mix well, but the lawns I've seen with it do look nice.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> andymac7 said:
> 
> 
> > There are many maps showing the transition zone, and many of them show my location in it.
> ...


@Bermuda_Rooster yes, I completely agree. Both grass types just don't do well around here in general, besides zoysia. There are lawns getting overtaken by zoysia in Portsmouth, the nearest town to me. Some of them are gorgeous, and they might not even know how to take care of it. And yes, again, the cool season grasses usually burn up pretty bad in the heat and humidity.

So, I think I'm gonna stick it out with the Yukon one more season. I know it will fill back in eventually. I'm gonna grab the plugger here really soon and transplant plugs from all stands which I know for sure are healthy with no damage and is Yukon. Again, all of the patches of pure Yukon I've seeded have little to no SDS or winterkill damage. Then I'll treat for SDS this fall with at least a double app, followed by some Potash for winter hardiness, and hope for the best.

I appreciate all of the input to this point, so thank you to all!

I will try to update with pics through the season.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

andymac7 said:


> So would I just overseed the blue into it this fall?


Yes, I believe that is the best time to overseed with KBG. Have you looked at the SPF-30 thread? I'm sure they go over the timing and technique for best success. I think @Reel Low Dad has some videos on his Blumuda as well.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ReelLowDad/videos


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## WillyT (Jun 26, 2019)

Bermuda needs warm nights and I am not sure you are there yet. I live in the south but visit Ohio frequently as my wife is from Northern Ohio. Your window of growing and mending is much smaller as you know.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ok, so after doing a bit of research over the weekend, and reading articles like this one, I have a new strategy:

https://sportsfieldmanagementonline.com/2020/02/18/growing-bermudagrass-in-the-north/11132/

By the way, this guy is growing bermuda in Granville Ohio, a straight zone 6! He must be completely nuts, right? . Granted, it's Latitude 36, a cold hardy vegetative hybrid, however, it still performed WORSE than Yukon in the latest NTEP trial I could find that lists the two:

https://ntep.org/data/bg07/bg07_13-6/bg07nm112t.txt

So, they're growing a LESS cold-hardy type of bermuda than I am in ZONE 6! Wow.

Here is another article out of Chillicothe Ohio, (an hour north of me, mostly zone 6, possibly 6b microclimates) telling residents it's time to control "invasive" bermuda:

https://www.chillicothegazette.com/story/news/local/2014/06/29/time-to-control-invasive-bermuda-grass/11715115/

They also mention that bermuda survives the winter by growing deep roots "below the frost line". No big news there, but that got me thinking..

What if I'm focusing too much effort on what's happening above ground, and not enough what's happening below? As in the dang ROOTS! I think I may have things all backwards as far as helping my Yukon survive harsh winters, and combat Spring Dead Spot. I think I need to reduce Nitrogen down to a smaller window of my growing season, and put out more Phosphorous and Potassium at most other times. So, I'm thinking something with slow-release N, and a ratio of triple 12?

What do you guys think? Does this sound like a better strategy for me? If so, is there a specific brand/type of fert would you recommend?

Thanks!


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## GPO Man (11 mo ago)

"Almost ready to throw in the towel on my lawn."

I've said this to myself many times before. And yet I keep getting sucked right back in.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

GPO Man said:


> "Almost ready to throw in the towel on my lawn."
> 
> I've said this to myself many times before. And yet I get getting sucked right back in.


Yup, @GPO Man, I think I'm officially sucked backed in. :roll: . Lol


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## WillyT (Jun 26, 2019)

andymac7 said:


> Ok, so after doing a bit of research over the weekend, and reading articles like this one, I have a new strategy:
> 
> https://sportsfieldmanagementonline.com/2020/02/18/growing-bermudagrass-in-the-north/11132/
> 
> ...


Sounds like a logical starting point. Have you looked into Tahoma 31 or lat 36 as they are more cold tolerant? Cold do some trials this winter with both and have a plan next spring. Just depends on sod that you could source locally.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Hey everyone, just an update for you..

I certainly think things are slowly improving. I've verticut (manually with my edger), aerated, top-dressed, raked, spoon fed Urea, and plugged.

May 10:



Now:



The plugs have all taken, albeit nut running yet. I blame the pre-emergent still holding them up. Hopefully it will wash out of the soil soon and the temps in the 90's next week will get them going.



Of course, if you stand in another part of the yard, things look much better:



I saw mycellim for the first time this morning, which means my Scott's Lawn Fungus Control (Clearys) app was probably a little too late. Hopefully it will keep it at bay. I'll probably put out Myclo again if it doesn't clear up.

Certain parts of the lawn look decent, but I'm dying to put out PGR, that's for sure. It's just not even close to the same look without it. You can see in this pic a Spring Dead Spot area almost filled back in..


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

2 month update...

It's getting there! (Apologies for the terrible camera phone) Of course now I have a few spots of goosegrass to deal with since it was so thin starting out, but overall I'm happy about where I'm at.



Although I did put down PGR before we left, I haven't been able to cut for over two weeks due to vacation and heavy downpours. I actually had to double cut it starting with my rotary, then finish it off with my triplex at 7/8". You can definitely see the stems showing through, so a summer reset will be in order asap. Going to try and take it down to about 3/8", then maintain at 3/4". I think that's the sweet spot for my Jake 1900D and bumpy lawn.

But again, much better than where we started, for sure.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

3 Month Update

Again, just a horrible photo (Not sure why). However, I just marvel at bermuda's ability to repair itself and fill in.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Great recovery!


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