# Elite KBG Not So Elite



## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Hey guys. I like lots of folks on here am having troubles finding the sweet spot for my turf as it relates to watering and nutrition. We have had a brutal couple of weeks in the 90s so I know that doesn't help. A little history:

1. Lawn was a complete reno in June 2019. 4 elite varieties of KBG and one elite variety of PRG. 
2. Fall blitz 2019 2.5 pounds of N between August and November. All AS and Urea.
3. Spring 2020 Applied liquid Prodiamine split rate and roughly 1.5 pounds of N from Green TRX and AS from April to June. Also have been using RGS, K4L monthly.
4. Summer 2020 Applied liquid Prodiamine at split rate and roughly 1 pound of N from Green TRX and Milorganite. Also used Greene effect at 8oz per k in early July. I have also applied Bifenthrin in liquid form in May and July. Merit one week ago. Also applied propoconazol in early June and Disease EX in early July.

I feel like my program is solid but my turf has checked out the last month. I have irrigation and water deeply 2-3 times per week when it is hot.

I have some shallow root areas which leads me to think either over watering or bugs. I took core samples today and my soil seems moist but not wet. I dug up some soil and looked for grubs and Billbug larvae but found none.

I have also been unhappy with the stalky PRG that is in my mix. I think a lot of the browning I am having is due to the stalks not cutting cleanly.

Any insight would be appreciated:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Can you define water deeply? How many inches of water?


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

looks like plain ole heat stress

did it look great in the spring with cool temps?


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> Can you define water deeply? How many inches of water?


.5 inches per watering.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

JERSEY said:


> looks like plain ole heat stress
> 
> did it look great in the spring with cool temps?


Yes. Looked great in the spring.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

I would say your dry and its HOT

let it survive? and hit it in late aug.......

just how it is when its 90 plus.....unless anyone can say different....

cool it with water..and make sure enough water in soil if you want it greener.

I see you say you have prg.....in your side bar.....that tends to die on me in heat in SJ.

your up there in conn.......maybe lives better...but the kyb is stronger in heat.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

JERSEY said:


> I would say your dry and its HOT
> 
> let it survive? and hit it in late aug.......
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! It's always the under/over watering battle.

I'm in West Michigan but yeah the PRG can't take the 90 degree heat for long. I'm hoping it dies out and the KBG takes over.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Just curious when you say .5 inch of water is that everywhere. Meaning when you set up you cups to measure did you put them all over your lawn? This was a real eye opener for me last year when I did this. 
I can't tell from the pics when you are pulling plugs is the soil wet, if so how far does the moisture go? This is a good indication if it's really a drought issue. 
One more thing I learned is when the soil has moisture its easier to keep it there...like a sponge when its even a little wet it will soak up the water but if it's bone dry it takes a lot more water to get it to absorb the water.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

JDgreen18 said:


> Just curious when you say .5 inch of water is that everywhere. Meaning when you set up you cups to measure did you put them all over your lawn? This was a real eye opener for me last year when I did this.
> I can't tell from the pics when you are pulling plugs is the soil wet, if so how far does the moisture go? This is a good indication if it's really a drought issue.
> One more thing I learned is when the soil has moisture its easier to keep it there...like a sponge when its even a little wet it will soak up the water but if it's bone dry it takes a lot more water to get it to absorb the water.


.5 inches was verified in 4 different zones in a 30 minute cycle. My soil type is sandy loam. I pulled the samples in 3 different locations and all seemed moist or when I squeezed the soil in my hand it made a ball. The turf is only a year old, so maybe more water is required.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

W@Wolverine Did you check:
- grubs
- hydrophobic spots
- fungus ( I see spots on blades on one of the pictures)
- soil defficiencies (soil test)
Your roots on some pictures are pretty good for a year old grass.

And no, PGR is not fun for the stocks! I also wish it to go away....@Stuofsci02


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Babameca said:


> [email protected] Did you check:
> - grubs
> - hydrophobic spots
> - fungus ( I see spots on blades on one of the pictures)
> ...


No grubs that I could find. Apply Merit every year first of July. I did see a few moths while mowing tonight, most likely sod webworms. I sprayed Bifenthrin in May and the end of June, so bugs shouldn't be a problem.

Hydrophobic spots maybe, I will be buying some baby shampoo tomorrow and applying in these spots.

I have sprayed propoconozole once and applied Disease EX twice since the first of June. Two modes of action, I doubt it's a fungal problem.

Soil test last Fall didn't indicate any screaming deficiencies. P.H. is 6.8. P is normally high and K is optimal.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Sandy loam. You might need less than 0.5in and more frequent. Read the Irrigation and ET Guide and do the calculations for your soil.

Even distribution within a zone is very important too.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> Sandy loam. You might need less than 0.5in and more frequent. Read the Irrigation and ET Guide and do the calculations for your soil.
> 
> Even distribution within a zone is very important too.


Great info G-Man! I have some homework to do. I also have a Rachio 3 and just set up a flex daily schedule and will let it self regulate watering needs. It's worth a shot.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Surprised no one else seems to have cared about the seed stalks, as someone who renovated entirely to remove PRG from my lawn i can state no matter how elite the variety seed stalks in the second season have always been a problem for me.
Banfield, Aspire, Hancock, Thrive...all top NTEP rated varieties doesnt matter my yard went to shit and felt like a punji stick field walkinng in my bare feet about this time in 2018 in its first true summer and i can clearly see a lot of seed stalks in the photos you took.

Mine started about July and got worse until Fall, but your weather is much warmer than here so its probably happening earlier. I wish i had an answer for you, but i never found one. I dethatched, i mowed low, then mowed high to try and hide it, nothing seemed to work for more than a week and it wasnt something i could keep up.
The lawn in the pic is a 5 way KBG blend elite(blueberry/bewitched/midnight/etc) + a 3 way PRG(Hancock/Aspire/Thrive) 80/20 by weight blend. I will say it did get less severe the 3rd year, and maybe would have gone away almost entirely by the 4th but i couldnt stand it. The entire reason i renovated the back yard was to have nice grass for the toddler kids to play in the sprinklers and slip and slide, but no one wanted to with it poking their feet all the time. So i killed it all off after the 3rd year summer.

You can see my old thread and pictures here which resemble yours.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6215

On your photo i can see 7 distinct seed stalks in red and roughly 3 actual "normal" grass stalks in black.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I had seed stalks, lowered the hoc and brought it back up and they mostly went away.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

@FuzzeWuzze @ABC123 The PRG is unsightly to say the least. It looked great in the Spring until the stalks came on. I'm hoping this clears up in the next year or two, if not it will be getting a gly bath.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

What were the elite varieties?

First year grass tends to be a little more sensitive to heat, drought, and fungi from my experience. Even if it was seeded the fall before.


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

Man, I was thinking the improved variety PRG would have less of the seed stalk problem but I guess not? The PRG really takes down the quality of my backyard. Front is sod (kbg) and much better but still some seed stalks where is overseeded sun n shade mix.

I was going to try a PRG overseed with improved varieties but this has me rethinking that idea.

No matter how much you water, those seed stalks wont go away and that is what's giving your lawn the brown look, not lack of water.


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

Another thought - your reno was in June (summer)? Do you think the KBG was able to germinate and outcompete the PRG in summer heat/dryness?

Maybe the lawn is mostly PRG? Not the 80/20


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

jcs43920 said:


> What were the elite varieties?
> 
> First year grass tends to be a little more sensitive to heat, drought, and fungi from my experience. Even if it was seeded the fall before.


Mazama, Award, NuGlade and Bewitched KBG
Grand Slam GLD PRG


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Vtx531 said:


> Another thought - your reno was in June (summer)? Do you think the KBG was able to germinate and outcompete the PRG in summer heat/dryness?
> 
> Maybe the lawn is mostly PRG? Not the 80/20


It filled in rather quickly the Fall of 2019, so I'm sure their is plenty of KBG in the mix.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Vtx531 said:


> Man, I was thinking the improved variety PRG would have less of the seed stalk problem but I guess not? The PRG really takes down the quality of my backyard. Front is sod (kbg) and much better but still some seed stalks where is overseeded sun n shade mix.
> 
> I was going to try a PRG overseed with improved varieties but this has me rethinking that idea.
> 
> No matter how much you water, those seed stalks wont go away and that is what's giving your lawn the brown look, not lack of water.


I agree 100%. If it doesnt improve next summer it will be 100% KBG reno Fall of 2021.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Wolverine said:


> Vtx531 said:
> 
> 
> > Man, I was thinking the improved variety PRG would have less of the seed stalk problem but I guess not? The PRG really takes down the quality of my backyard. Front is sod (kbg) and much better but still some seed stalks where is overseeded sun n shade mix.
> ...


Its like reading my own thoughts from 2018->2019.

The Mazama mono went down in Fall '19 ...


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

The prg should slowly die out if you get cold enough winters.


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## ROJ_3030 (Sep 28, 2019)

@Wolverine I'm experiencing a very similar situation and Ironically, I'm very close to you over in Midland MI.

I put seed down on 8/15/19 (new construction). I also used a similar seed mix: 70% KBG (Brooklawn, Bonaire, Blackberry, Blueberry), 30% PRG (Laredo 2, Aquarus 4, Allaire 3). These varieties may not be as highly regarded as yours but, a similar ratio at the least. I ended 2019 with ok establishment (could do way better now) and seemed to have a strong start this spring but am just now realizing that I really don't think I have a primarily kbg lawn. The real kicker now is the same thing you're battling, STALKS!!! They're really bad and I have a TON! They really suck to walk on barefoot and give the lawn a brown tinge. They were so bad a few weeks ago that I found my mower blades to be dull after a couple cuts.

I really hope this becomes better in the next few years. My current plan is to continue casually mentioning to "the boss" that I'm planning to nuke the yard just to ease into the idea! Mono KBG....

6/14/20





Most recent pic showing some of the stalks: (actually took this for the the lovely nutsesdge)



Can someone confirm this to be the same deal? Also, does this appear to be primarily prg?

Keep me posted on your turf adventures!


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Exactly, monostand!


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

@ROJ_3030 The brown seed stalks in your picture do look like primarily PRG. Unfortunately as said already in this thread it's something you have to deal with when you have a mix with PRG this time of year.


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

My unprofessional opinion...PRG is a horrible grass. To me it is just far, far inferior especially compared to KBG.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Great conversation guys. I am going to lower my HOC when things cool down and see if it clears up. If it does the same thing next summer it's getting nuked in July. We have some harsh winters here at times, I'm hoping for a dye off of some of it.

Where the hell does this grass perform well? Alaska? I'm going to call the seed provider tomorrow and ask for suggestions on how to care for their stalky grass. I have had stalk issues since Mid June.not acceptable in my opinion.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Called the local rep from Mountain View Seeds where Grand Slam is sourced. I sent him a bunch of pics. He is going to get back with me.

Also talked to a sales person at United Seed (where I purchased the GS) and he said he used to work on a golf course and they could never keep PRG alive through a hot summer. He said he would also not recommend It in a home lawn other than for some initial cover or annual purposes. He said the my Rye will most likely thin out and be non-existent in a few years.

I ordered 10 pounds of Blue Note from United and have 10 pounds of left over Mazama that I will overseed with mid August. I'm going to dethatch out as much of the dead Rye as I can then aerate and seed.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Wolverine said:


> Great conversation guys. I am going to lower my HOC when things cool down and see if it clears up. If it does the same thing next summer it's getting nuked in July. We have some harsh winters here at times, I'm hoping for a dye off of some of it.
> 
> Where the hell does this grass perform well? Alaska? I'm going to call the seed provider tomorrow and ask for suggestions on how to care for their stalky grass. I have had stalk issues since Mid June.not acceptable in my opinion.


It performs well in Oregon obviously most lawns here are mutt mixes primarily prg. But as I said I had really bad seed stalk issues here an hour north of the seed capital of Oregon.


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

Check out my PRG stalks still going strong in mid July. It really shows in the dark stripes.

Still trying to decide if it is worth attempting KBG overseed this fall. I think I might try it. Most studies I have seen about KBG overseeding being impossible are done on golf course height grass which is a different situation.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Vtx531 said:


> Check out my PRG stalks still going strong in mid July. It really shows in the dark stripes.
> 
> Still trying to decide if it is worth attempting KBG overseed this fall. I think I might try it. Most studies I have seen about KBG overseeding being impossible are done on golf course height grass which is a different situation.


I'm overseeding with Mazama, Blue Note and Blueberry KBG mid August.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)




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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I thought I read somewhere that PRG puts out a hormone that makes it harder for seeds to germinate.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

ABC123 said:


> I thought I read somewhere that PRG puts out a hormone that makes it harder for seeds to germinate.


Not if it's dead and brown


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

Have you thought about what overseeding technique?

I contemplated using a power rake but I don't want to damage the existing grass too bad.

Thought about mowing short but then again, maybe keeping it long would work well because then only the thinner spots would fill in and if it is already thick enough that it would stop seed from germinating and establishing then why would I want to hurt that?

Current plan is to use my Greensaire if it hasn't sold by then to aerate and bring up cores, then spike aerator to makes little shallow holes for seed, then a dethatcher (spring kind that you pull behind a mower) to scratch up the dirt a little and breakup cores to cover the seeds.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Vtx531 said:


> Have you thought about what overseeding technique?
> 
> I contemplated using a power rake but I don't want to damage the existing grass too bad.
> 
> ...


Sounds like a solid plan. I have a tow behind de-thatcher and a core aerator that I will be using. I'm going to try and get my turf in the 2" range, de-thatch, aerate, seed down, then aerate again just to bust up some of the plugs. I will then make many passes with my riding mower to improve seed to soil contact. Final step will be Tenacity and probably RGS. I'm going to wait 1-2 weeks to put starter fert down to give the seedlings a chance to germinate.


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## Shawn E (Jun 24, 2018)

I'm a big fan of wetting agents. I apply them every 4 weeks at 5oz/k and water 1" only once a week. I do 4 15min cycles back to back. Total of an hour per zone. My yard is green and still growing through this 90+ heat. I was using magnaplex but I just got some triplo and can't wait to try it out.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Shawn E said:


> I'm a big fan of wetting agents. I apply them every 4 weeks at 5oz/k and water 1" only once a week. I do 4 15min cycles back to back. Total of an hour per zone. My yard is green and still growing through this 90+ heat. I was using magnaplex but I just got some triplo and can't wait to try it out.


I was looking at the Panterra product. I'm thinking about trying it next year mid summer and see if it helps.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Shawn E why the switch to triplo? They have some many products that it gets confusing. Precip is the newer one, right?


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

If your going to try a overseed this fall stop fertilizing now. Do your overseed without fertilizer just tenacity you don't want the established grass to outcompete the new seedlings. After the third mow drop some Milo.


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## ROJ_3030 (Sep 28, 2019)

Very interesting discussion. I find it ironic that yet another fellow Michigander @Vtx531 is also struggling with prg stalks. Maybe our particular climate is a factor in how bad the stalks are? I'm sure the unusually high temperatures have also contributed as well.

Your KBG over seed @Wolverine strategy sounds solid. Please do us a favor and post your process or at least results if you don't mind. This would be way more feasible than a full reno.

One thing I keep noticing with my prg stalks is after every mow, they once again become more visible. Sounds obvious, I know but the lawn typically looks better with at least 1/2"-1" of top growth that seems to hide the stalks. I'm very temped to drop my hoc down to 1-1/2" one time just to lower the visibility of the stalks and then continue cutting at 2" afterwards.


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

ROJ_3030 said:


> One thing I keep noticing with my prg stalks is after every mow, they once again become more visible. Sounds obvious, I know but the lawn typically looks better with at least 1/2"-1" of top growth that seems to hide the stalks. I'm very temped to drop my hoc down to 1-1/2" one time just to lower the visibility of the stalks and then continue cutting at 2" afterwards.


I am considering this as well but I noticed my ryegrass is STILL producing seedheads. There are hardly any grass blades on these specimens - just seedheads and some appear to be green/active.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Forgot the name, but there's a product that will kill ryegrass and leave your bluegrass in tact.
It's nasty stuff and can sterilize your soil if used the wrong way. 
I was talked out of using by members on this forum however, it should work in theory.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ryegrass stalks are a pain. It is more noticeable in high height of cut. http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2013/06/perennial-ryegrass-seedheads-now-and.html I dont know if you guys attempted a dethatch / scarify mid june just to help remove them.

@Thick n Dense I think you are referring to MSM. Danger! the rates/applications have to be spot on for it.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

ROJ_3030 said:


> Very interesting discussion. I find it ironic that yet another fellow Michigander @Vtx531 is also struggling with prg stalks. Maybe our particular climate is a factor in how bad the stalks are? I'm sure the unusually high temperatures have also contributed as well.
> 
> Your KBG over seed @Wolverine strategy sounds solid. Please do us a favor and post your process or at least results if you don't mind. This would be way more feasible than a full reno.
> 
> One thing I keep noticing with my prg stalks is after every mow, they once again become more visible. Sounds obvious, I know but the lawn typically looks better with at least 1/2"-1" of top growth that seems to hide the stalks. I'm very temped to drop my hoc down to 1-1/2" one time just to lower the visibility of the stalks and then continue cutting at 2" afterwards.


I will post the process and results. I have 28 pounds of Mazama and 10 pounds of Blue Note for my overseed.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Vtx531 said:


> ROJ_3030 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I keep noticing with my prg stalks is after every mow, they once again become more visible. Sounds obvious, I know but the lawn typically looks better with at least 1/2"-1" of top growth that seems to hide the stalks. I'm very temped to drop my hoc down to 1-1/2" one time just to lower the visibility of the stalks and then continue cutting at 2" afterwards.
> ...


This grass shouldn't be sold in our region. In time it will burn up or die from the cold.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@ABC123 @ROJ_3030 @Wolverine When you guys talk monostand KBG, I hope you know really well and fully master the lawn growing process. I have seen way more failures and 'average' mono stands than incredible No mixes of common cultivars. Some even won LOTM like @Stuofsci02 . Before put it to my lawn, I would rather look over my own practices...
My 15 years old Nomix that was just dust and weeds 2 years ago. You can see some FF spots and some Triv, but this is my kid playground, so I can't care less. It simply gets the same regiment as the rest of my yard. It hardly gets any sun until June and after end of August, but...

Cheers


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## Shawn E (Jun 24, 2018)

Sorry to switch back topics but I was told the magnaplex wetting agent is like a 60% water retention and the triplo was closer to a 90%. I thought with all this heat stress I'd try it out and if it doesn't work then I'll switch back. The local supply store here is called Zimco and the guy there managed a golf course for years now he does some athletic fields for the city. He seems to know his stuff and I'm in there way longer then I ever think I will be every time.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> Forgot the name, but there's a product that will kill ryegrass and leave your bluegrass in tact.
> It's nasty stuff and can sterilize your soil if used the wrong way.
> I was talked out of using by members on this forum however, it should work in theory.


In theory KBG also has almost 2x the dosage of Tenacity as PRG. If you used your yearly limit on 2 heavy 8oz/Acre rate doses 2-3 weeks apart you'd likely lose some KBG but totally fry most of the PRG. But it also likely means you couldnt seed for several months.

I used this strategy to fry annual ryegrass in my KBG mono, but i did it @ 6oz/Acre rate back in April i think and my KBG was pretty frazzled for about 3 weeks but the annual rye hasnt been seen since.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> > Forgot the name, but there's a product that will kill ryegrass and leave your bluegrass in tact.
> ...


Good point... I did use this for some annual rye in my lawn + frequent and short mowings after it turned white. 
I don't think PRG can handle the low low cut KBG can between 1-2". 
Problem is time though, how long do you want to work on it ? and how would you get rid of FF as well?


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> > Thick n Dense said:
> ...


Both FF and PRG share 5oz limit, so should get fried by heavy doses. Obviously its going to make your entire yard look like shit for a month or two, and may not work. But depending on how large of an area your dealing with for some people it may be something to try before a full renovation.


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

ABC123 said:


> I had seed stalks, lowered the hoc and brought it back up and they mostly went away.


I just think its crappy PRG


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

Vtx531 said:


> ROJ_3030 said:
> 
> 
> > One thing I keep noticing with my prg stalks is after every mow, they once again become more visible. Sounds obvious, I know but the lawn typically looks better with at least 1/2"-1" of top growth that seems to hide the stalks. I'm very temped to drop my hoc down to 1-1/2" one time just to lower the visibility of the stalks and then continue cutting at 2" afterwards.


Same thing I had to deal with and NEVER have PRG in my yard,, i am doing a FULL reno in my front yard... Glyso in a week.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> > Forgot the name, but there's a product that will kill ryegrass and leave your bluegrass in tact.
> ...


I like this idea. I also have some Poa a that I could live without as well. Maybe kill 2 birds with one stone.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Matthew_73 said:


> Vtx531 said:
> 
> 
> > ROJ_3030 said:
> ...


Those are most definitely PRG seed heads.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

1. Cut turf down to 2"
2. Dethatched 
3. Heavy core aerate
4. Spread 30 lbs of Mazama and 10 pounds of Blue Note KBG
5. Applied K-mag at 25 lbs and Phosphorus at 25 lbs. mixed and filled my Lesco hopper. No nitrogen.
6. Sprayed RGS at 6oz per k and Tenacity at syringe rate
7. Dragged the entire lawn. Made many tractor passes to increase seed to soil contact

I always forget how much material is generated when you take the lawn down and dethatch. The lawn was super pissed when I was done, was pretty warm and dry on the day I did the work. It's starting to wake back up. Starter fert in 2 weeks then keep it moist.


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## ROJ_3030 (Sep 28, 2019)

Very cool @Wolverine! I'm definitely anxious to see how your lawn takes the overseeding. Seems like you've basically given it the best possible chance for success. Report back when you see some progress please.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Day 8 germination



Color is coming back. I will mow next week and put down starter fert.


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## ROJ_3030 (Sep 28, 2019)

Hey @Wolverine, any updates on how the mazama and blue note overseed went?


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

ROJ_3030 said:


> Hey @Wolverine, any updates on how the mazama and blue note overseed went?


@Wolverine 
I stumbled upon this while looking for something else, and it peaked my interest. Was the kbg overseed able to fill in and push out the prg? Did any prg survive a second summer, or did it check out?


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Chris LI said:


> ROJ_3030 said:
> 
> 
> > Hey @Wolverine, any updates on how the mazama and blue note overseed went?
> ...


Interested as well ...


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