# Need some input on a property line issue



## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

I need some input on how to proceed concerning a property line between my lawn and my neighbor's. A land survey was done recently which revealed that the neighbor's fence is 2 to 3 feet over into our property. This fence was built 9 years ago. We had a talk with the neighbor and he agreed that he will move the fence after determining where the new line is (by using the metal rods at the corners as markers).

He said that, it is currently too cold to move the fence and that he will do it when warmer weather arrives in the spring.

I feel like I should be taking actions that are based on standard protocol for situations like this one i.e. a lot can happen, he can change his mind. He had told the people doing the survey that the fence had been there for over eight years (our property is in Georgia). I get the feeling that he might be trying to take our property through adverse possession despite the fact that he verbally agreed to move the fence after spring arrived but it is uncertain how quickly he will act or if he will act at all.

So, should I be sending him a letter of some sort? Should I hire a lawyer to send him a letter. I can either just trust his word but I feel like there might be a more standard way to approach this matter so that things don't deviate off course.


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## CLT49er (Jun 19, 2020)

Before going the legal route, I would offer to help. Maybe lie a bit and say you have a free pole auger for the weekend. Will get him to move faster. If it cost you $100 to rent one for him I think he would appreciate it.. And if he isnt willing to accept your labor or free tool, then I would let him know a lawyer will contact him to work it out. You need to reclaim your property line or you can lose it to him. Remember he might be your neighbor for years so keep it cool.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Losing your property through adverse possession isn't such a common thing in reality, especially in platted and properly marked & maintained developments. It can become an argument in not so well maintained or even vacant/abandoned land. Your neighbors' error in placing the fence on your property does not have as remedy his claim to ownership of that strip of land. No sane judge would approve that. If anything it is taking away your right to enjoyment of property that you legally own and are paying taxes on! All this is said to bring me to this point: any structure, tree or accessory on your legal property can be done with as you, the legal owner see fit. This includes any fence, tree, etc, that pertrudes onto your property. I'm not suggesting you remove it but it is within your right of you so choose. So don't be too panicked about this. Be as neighborly as you can be but, depending on how he reciprocates, a friendly letter putting this into writing will always drive the point home that you're not a pushover.

Small print: I am no lawyer but have built/developed in the Atlanta area and have had my share of issues with property line disputes, the worst which cost me 6-digits in legal fees!!


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Generally speaking, in Georgia adverse possession requires 20 years, and it's an open question of when the clock starts since it sounds like neither of you knew about the mistake until recently. Also, if a landowner gives permission to an encroacher, that would generally stop any claim to adverse possession. If I were you, though, I would wait a few more months. Getting an attorney involved at this stage might just give you a new enemy that you will be living next to for the next to for the foreseeable future.


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## jeffjunstrom (Aug 12, 2019)

Lawyer here who has spent a dozen years in property law. What @Phids said is legally correct, and also a good approach (not getting a lawyer involved...yet). Adverse possession is typically ~15-20 years, and requires a number of other elements (OCEAN, for all the other lawyers out there, if you remember from 2L Property Law). Sounds like you need to continue to have conversations with your neighbor until it reaches the point of getting a lawyer, but it doesn't sound like you're there. If you still feel the need to do *something*, I would recommend filing an affidavit along with your land survey, which would essentially act as a notice that you're contesting any claims of adverse possession.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

There may be another option to moving the fence (unless you really want it moved). Reminds me of a situation where neighbor A planted a row of shrubs on neighbor B's property. Options were, make neighbor A remove the shrubs, or, clearly mark the property corners with permanent survey monuments and the shrubs now belong to neighbor B - no need to tear them out. I don't know what documentation would have been required between them but as the story was told to me, those are the options the legal eagles blessed. Clear which option makes for better neighbors (to complete the story, neighbor B did actually make neighbor A tear out the shrubs and they hated each other for the rest of time).

I don't know what the properties look like - if the homes are relatively tight, a few feet makes a big difference as far as where the fence is. If they're multi-acre lots and up, maybe you now have a fence on that side and a small area to plant trees or whatever outside of it, courtesy of your neighbor.

Disclaimer &#128512; this is not legal advice, hire a lawyer in your jurisdiction to advise you if you have legal questions, blah, blah, fineprint, etc.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

if you talked about it and there was an agreement to move the fence in spring, just sit tight until spring. At that point, bring it up and see if they change their tune. that said, is the ground even frozen in Georgia? Isn't it like 50 degrees during the day? 


werner said:


> He said that, it is currently too cold to move the fence and that he will do it when warmer weather arrives in the spring.


the worst case scenario is probably that you own the fence and couple feet beyond it.

i like the idea of placing a property line marker at the correct spot. It doesn't sound like this was intentional, and they might be neighbors for decades to come. please try to stay friendly. I've had some disputes with one of my neighbors and its been very challenging to stay friendly.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Might as well talk about neighbor disputes while the op waits for Spring &#128512;. I have one neighbor who is very "particular" and complains about any variety of things they have no real right to complain about. The first few times I was neighborly and said I'll take care of whatever it was and did just to keep peace and it was no big deal to me. After a few rounds of this it was clear they were just grown up bullies who enjoyed pushing buttons. The last "discussion" like that when it became clear the onslaught of constant complaints would never stop I turned on my heel and walked off never to look back like Lot in the bible. Will never speak to that neighbor again. I'm not mean and won't ever be vindictive about anything, but some people you just have to write off and let them do what they do without involving you in their drama.

I guess to try to tie it back in to this thread, if the neighbor fails to move the fence and you want it moved, even after say a friendly "reminder" when Spring comes, move or remove the fence yourself and realize that that neighbor is not your friend. I think you're being reasonable waiting for Spring and neighbors should be reasonable with each other. If your reasonableness gets taken advantage of come Spring, the gloves can come off and do what you need to do.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

Here's a cautionary tale of someone snapping regarding a property line dispute. (Keep in mind he wasn't losing any property.) He used his riding lawn mower to stalk the victims... :shock:

*Killing spree toll could have risen*
By NICOLE MARSHALL World Staff Writer
11/11/2006

Two other people were potential targets of a gunman who killed three people and himself.

Moving a 35-year-old fence about seven feet sparked the shooting spree that left four people dead Thursday, sheriff's deputies said.

But the death toll could have been even higher. At least two people who witnessed the rampage Thursday were able to avoid being shot themselves.

When Ronald Doherty, 77, heard gunshots outside his house, he went outside to see what was happening.

"My grandson and the friend of my son, they were underneath my little white truck out front of my house, and my neighbor was trying to shoot them with a shotgun," he said. "They were trying to get away from him."

Howard Hawthorne, Doherty's 61-year-old neighbor, was down on his knees, apparently shooting at them while they were under the pickup, Doherty said.

"I yelled out real loud, 'Howard, stop that! What in the hell are you doing? Have you gone crazy, or what?' " Doherty said. "He didn't say anything. He just looked up at me like he was in outer space or something."

Doherty was so close to the gunman that he realized that he could be shot next, "and I don't have a gun or anything, so ran I back in and called 911," he said.

Doherty is the stepfather of Anthony Graham, 44, one of three men who deputies say were fatally shot with a 12-gauge shotgun by Hawthorne, who then turned the gun on himself.

"Howard has been a good neighbor, and I have know him for years and years and years, but . . . he was just running wild. You could not stop him," Doherty said.

Also slain were Graham's son, Joshua LeForte, 24, and Graham's longtime friend, Duane Goodwin, 47, Tulsa County Sheriff's Capt. Fred Cotton said.

Graham's wife also was outside and saw her husband and son being shot. She ran from the gunman, trying to dial 911 on a cellular phone as she ran, Detective Todd Cole said.

Just as Skiatook police officers drove up, Hawthorne shot himself as he sat on a garden tractor, Cotton said. The officers had no time to intervene.

"Their vehicles were still moving and, as they approached, he was still on the lawn tractor trying to get himself in position," Cotton said.

With the officers there, Doherty thought it was safe to look outside.

"I looked over to the left where my boy was lying, and I saw Howard on top of his riding lawn mower, and it looked like he was dead, too," he said.

A few years ago, Doherty had given Graham five acres of his land in the 3800 block of East 126th Street North. Graham and his family lived on that property behind Doherty's house.

A fence on the land had fallen into disrepair, and recent surveys showed that it was about seven feet from where it should have been built, Doherty said.

"Since the fence was not good anymore, my son wanted to replace it and put it back where the survey said it should be," he said.

Doherty didn't have the money for a survey when he built the fence in 1971, he said. But in the past few years, the property had been surveyed three times, all with the same result, he said.

"The third one we did because my boy wanted to make dead sure if he was moving the fence that he was putting it in the right place. They all came out the same way," Doherty said.

Cotton said Hawthorne was not happy that his property line was changing, even though he was not losing any land. His entire property was shifting about seven feet to the east.

While the men worked to remove the fence Thursday evening, Doherty saw Hawthorne go out and take pictures of them and then go back to his house.

Deputies and police were called to the property about 4 p.m. to a disturbance involving the neighbors.

"When the deputies left, according to them, Mr. Hawthorne was in good spirits and appeared to be OK," Cotton said.

Before they left, deputies advised Hawthorne and Graham to take the matter to civil court. A short time later, Doherty was inside his home of 35 years when he heard the gunfire.

Cole said Hawthorne shot Graham first as he was getting off a tractor. LeForte and Goodwin then tried to flee.

LeForte was found dead in a roadway. He apparently had been shot twice, once after he was already down, Cole said. Goodwin was found about 90 feet away behind a shed.

"We will never know what went through this guy's mind," Cole said of Hawthorne. "But I believe he went over there with plans to do something. He never said anything before he started shooting."

Graham owned a heating and air conditioning business. He also owned a mobile home park in Oologah and built houses.

Doherty described his son as outgoing, and he described his grandson, LeForte, as a "happy-go-lucky kid" with a 4-year-old daughter.

LeForte was a skilled mechanic and worked with Graham, his stepfather.

Goodwin was a longtime friend of Graham's, and both men had attended Collinsville schools together, Goodwin's father, Silas Goodwin, said. He was married and had two adult children.

Silas Goodwin said his son was a mechanic who lived in Tahlequah but frequently came back to the area to pick up parts for jet skis and motorcycles.

"Anything that runs he could work on," Silas Goodwin said.

Goodwin left his parents' house, on 126th Street North just a few miles from the shooting scene, about 4:30 p.m. and drove to Graham's. "He must have just got there when this all happened," Silas Goodwin said.

Cole said investigators have found no record of violence in Hawthorne's past.

"We have never seen anything like this at the Sheriff's Office."

http://www.tulsaworld.com/NewsStory.asp?ID=061111_To_A1_Killi47428#


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## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

jeffjunstrom said:


> Lawyer here who has spent a dozen years in property law. What @Phids said is legally correct, and also a good approach (not getting a lawyer involved...yet). Adverse possession is typically ~15-20 years, and requires a number of other elements (OCEAN, for all the other lawyers out there, if you remember from 2L Property Law). Sounds like you need to continue to have conversations with your neighbor until it reaches the point of getting a lawyer, but it doesn't sound like you're there. If you still feel the need to do *something*, I would recommend filing an affidavit along with your land survey, which would essentially act as a notice that you're contesting any claims of adverse possession.


Thank you.

Would I need a plat/drawing to file an affidavit? I'm currently waiting for the company that did the survey to send the plat.

How do I begin filing an affidavit?


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## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

All of the comments have been very helpful. Thank you all that have posted.

So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


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## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

werner said:


> All of the comments have been very helpful. Thank you to all that have posted.
> 
> So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


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## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

All of the comments have been very helpful. Thank you to all that have posted.

So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


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## werner (Oct 18, 2020)

All of the comments have been very helpful. Thank you to all that have posted.

So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property eventually. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

FYI:
You can usually go to your county's GIS website (depends on the county) and browse a map of all the platted properties in the county. Then you can usually overlay an aerial photo of the property in question. That should show if the fence really does intrude across the property line.

GIS = Geographic Information Services


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## Slim 1938 (Aug 24, 2019)

I think I would be calm and patient with him but firm also. I would talk to him some more and maybe say something like " Hey man I hope we can get this resolved cool and civil and it not turn into one of those ugly neighbor fueds. How about gentleman's handshake that it get resolved this spring?" Then you'll get a feel for what he really thinks and go from there. The last thing you want is a lifetime fued with a neighbor. Best of wishes!


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

werner said:


> So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


This is not legal advice, but keep in mind that based on your conversation, it sounds like your neighbor is no longer occupying that strip of land under a claim of right. In other words, you and he both agreed that you own the property. Even if he delays in moving the fence, he is still on your property with your permission, which means that a required element of adverse possession seems to be missing. Had the fence been up for another 11 years or so before you and he discovered the mistake (reaching the 20-year statutory requirement for AP), then it may have been another story.

All you would really have to do is contact a local attorney whose area is real property law, and he/she would be able to give you legal advice on how to proceed. But again, you have to weigh the pros and cons of having a neighbor who might take offense over a legal threat.

If I were you, I might decide to plant a tree/shrub near the border and tell the neighbor that you want to do it by X date, and request that the fence be moved by then. Establishing a deadline like that may help him to act, and you'll then know whether or not he's serious about moving the fence.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I'll throw in my two cents, because I had a huge blow up with my neighbor at my previous house. We went from being really close to not speaking for 4 years until I recently moved. I won't get into detail, but it was a terrible situation that he and I both could have handled better. It did not involve a property line issue.

With that said, I wouldn't go the legal route just yet, except to maybe call a paralegal who is knowledgeable in this area and ask for advice on how best to proceed and when would the proper time be to get legal involved. I would also ask what you can do now in order to protect yourself from a future dispute. They should be able to offer this advice for free over the phone.

After that, I would wait for the Spring to come before bringing this up again with your neighbor. This is a very delicate situation. Depending on your relationship, I might even ask how I can help with the process..."is there anything you need me to help with in getting this done? I'm here if you need anything..."

If it turns out that he has zero intention of remedying the situation, that's what when I would call a lawyer.

Don't think for a second that he hasn't already called one to see what his options are. You would be wise to do the same.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

My neighbor has a section of his fence butt up right to the back of my garage instead of running the fence alone his property line which gives me about 2 feet behind my garage. It's only a small section of the fence, so for now I am going to ignore it. I'm the new guy on the block and I have no idea how long that fence has been up. That being said, I could use the space behind the garage as storage...


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

ColeLawn said:


> My neighbor has a section of his fence butt up right to the back of my garage instead of running the fence alone his property line which gives me about 2 feet behind my garage. It's only a small section of the fence, so for now I am going to ignore it. I'm the new guy on the block and I have no idea how long that fence has been up. That being said, I could use the space behind the garage as storage...


My guess is that you mentioned it because you are actually _not_ able to ignore it, and I can't blame you. You are paying property taxes on all of your lot, so to have someone else encroach on it for free doesn't make you a bad person, but a normal person.

I think if you are the "new guy", then now is the best time to lay down the law. It's more understandable for a new neighbor to make a change to his lot than someone who's lived there for many years.

If I were you, I would have the surveyor come out and provide you with documentation, and immediately after show your encroaching neighbor the documentation and that you have plans for using the space. For all we know your neighbor might be unaware, and might have purchased the lot with the fence already there. If it's just a small section of the fence, then it shouldn't be that hard to move it.


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## White94RX (Jan 23, 2021)

werner said:


> All of the comments have been very helpful. Thank you all that have posted.
> 
> So, it seems that if I just sit still, than the neighbor has a chance of taking my property. My question is, do I ultimately have to get the fence moved or can I prevent them from taking my land by filing some kind of claim with the city perhaps, such as an affidavit as jeffjunstrom mentioned? I'm planning in sending the city the plat map (that I'm still waiting on from the surveyor) which should show that the fence is in my property.


Any kind of update on the situation? Has anything else happened?


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Phids said:


> My guess is that you mentioned it because you are actually _not_ able to ignore it, and I can't blame you. You are paying property taxes on all of your lot, so to have someone else encroach on it for free doesn't make you a bad person, but a normal person.
> 
> I think if you are the "new guy", then now is the best time to lay down the law. It's more understandable for a new neighbor to make a change to his lot than someone who's lived there for many years.
> 
> If I were you, I would have the surveyor come out and provide you with documentation, and immediately after show your encroaching neighbor the documentation and that you have plans for using the space. For all we know your neighbor might be unaware, and might have purchased the lot with the fence already there. If it's just a small section of the fence, then it shouldn't be that hard to move it.


You are right, it's something I see every time I look in my backyard. And my backyard is small, so I can use all the space I can get. I guess "trying to ignore it" was the way I should have worded it. And you make a lot of good points. If I can catch him outside in his yard this spring I will inquire about the fence (who put it up, his thoughts on having it moved, etc.). I'll gauge his reaction and go from there.

I already have a copy of a survey that I received at closing. I think it's a survey at least, but it clearly shows this section of the fence cuts through my property line to meet the garage. Now I need to just grow some balls.


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## Boomer Sooner (Feb 19, 2021)

I don't Know how accurate a GIS map typically is, but for my house it's spot on. I've looked at many of the homes near me, and according to the map there are many homes that don't have the fence where it should be, and some people even have sheds partially or completely over on the neighbors property.


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## GrassDad (Sep 18, 2019)

How did all this turn out?


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