# When it shouldn't be green!



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Hey all and MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Below are a couple pictures I took this morning. I'm no rocket scientist but even I know that Bermuda isn't green this time of year in the DFW market  My entire lawn is "dotted" like this. Wondering if the clearing of land for a new subdivision upwind brought in undesirables or .... I also had a retaining wall put in last Spring that brought about 80 yards of dirt up from the creek "walls" and into a pile across the drive from this location. Regardless, it's here.




I'm going to move forward under the presumption that most of this is POA and other undesirables.

I still plan to wait for one more good freeze but here's my overall plan.

In the weeks to come, I'm sure we'll get that freeze which will then be followed by a few days in the 50's and 60's. Always happens.

My plan is to load up the backpack sprayer with some gly (https://www.domyown.com/eraser-ap-p-1536.html) and spray during one of those 50-60 degree windows.

From the pictures, is this POA?
Does this sound like a proper course of action?
If so any advice on mixing strength?
Any other words of advice or encouragement?


----------



## OD on Grass (Nov 1, 2018)

I hear mixed info on spraying glyphosate in dormant Bermuda. I've never had a problem with it but I'm just starting to get more serious about my grass so what do I know.


----------



## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Smokindog said:


> Hey all and MERRY CHRISTMAS!
> 
> Below are a couple pictures I took this morning. I'm no rocket scientist but even I know that Bermuda isn't green this time of year in the DFW market  My entire lawn is "dotted" like this. Wondering if the clearing of land for a new subdivision upwind brought in undesirables or .... I also had a retaining wall put in last Spring that brought about 80 yards of dirt up from the creek "walls" and into a pile across the drive from this location. Regardless, it's here.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's Poa. I've never sprayed glyphosate on dormant bermuda (and I wouldn't run the risk, either). I'd look for a selective approach to the problem (Revolver, Monument etc). Just my $.02


----------



## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Man. I better take a closer look at my lawn. Because that doesn't look like Poa to me, but if it is, I might be in trouble.


----------



## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

Yes, That is POA.


----------



## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

How can y'all tell that it's POA? It looks very similar to Bermuda to me.


----------



## OD on Grass (Nov 1, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> How can y'all tell that it's POA? It looks very similar to Bermuda to me.


Green in the middle of winter when the rest of the Bermuda is dormant. It's poa's M.O. 
You have to learn the ways of the con artist. Study his ways. Befriend his friends... then kill it


----------



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

OD on Grass said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > How can y'all tell that it's POA? It looks very similar to Bermuda to me.
> ...


That certainly isn't always the case. I can't tell you how many customers that I have that get rouge patches of Fescue or the dreaded Italian Rye grass.


----------



## OD on Grass (Nov 1, 2018)

high leverage said:


> OD on Grass said:
> 
> 
> > CenlaLowell said:
> ...


Well... does it matter? If the Bermuda is dormant... kill it.


----------



## TonyC (May 17, 2018)

I'm with @high leverage, I have a small area of green in my Zoysia, and I used a grass identification site to determine mine is PRyeG.

Pull a sample and evaluate it to be accurate.

http://turfid.ncsu.edu/ItemID.aspx?orderID=GR&orderDesc=Grass


----------



## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

After looking closer, I really don't think that's POA, in fact it doesnt even look close. These pics look like my lawn, which suddenly greened up well over 60% and it's not POA.


----------



## Rockinar (Jul 21, 2017)

I just abandon my lawn in the winter. It what it is. Weeds, Poa...have at it. I will deal with it in March/April.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Even if it's PRG, it's NOT Bermuda and needs to go.

Anyone here do gly spray on dormant Bermuda? The label on my Eraser A/P says it's OK, domyown says it's OK, and there appear to be a lot of articles/videos in support of using gly on dormant Bermuda as an effective method to rid your lawn of unwanted inhabitants.


----------



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Smokindog said:


> Even if it's PRG, it's NOT Bermuda and needs to go.
> 
> Anyone here do gly spray on dormant Bermuda? The label on my Eraser A/P says it's OK, domyown says it's OK, and there appear to be a lot of articles/videos in support of using gly on dormant Bermuda as an effective method to rid your lawn of unwanted inhabitants.


I've discussed many times my thoughts are below.

The use of Glypho is somewhat controversial on here. And I personally have gone both ways. I'm now on the side that uses it. I do applications commercially. It's a cost benefit analysis for commercial applicators, golf courses, and homeowners. Clients pay to have a weed free lawn 12 moths out of the year. To achieve this in winter when dealing with winter grassy weeds our options are either using expensive ($100+ per acre) sulfonylureas (Katana, Monument, Revolver, ect...) or glyphosate (around $5 per acre). It just no viable commercially (cost per application) to blanket customers lawns and golf courses with these expensive sulfonylureas.

I blanket spray every customers lawn in round 1, 3, and 7. I prefer not to play hide and seek with weeds durning these periods. Spot spraying = hide and seek. Call backs due to missed weeds and/or weeds that are too small to see because they are hidden beneath the dormant Bermuda cost me more time/labor than the added cost of blanket apps.

The consensus is if you do use Glypho it recommended to blanket vs. spot due to the possibility of spotty lawn due to delayed green up. The link below addresses this situation.

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2017/02/ ... in-winter/
Top


----------



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

OD on Grass said:


> high leverage said:
> 
> 
> > OD on Grass said:
> ...


One of the most important aspect of Intergrated Pest Management is identifying what you're dealing with. It's people like yourself that contribute to herbicide resistance. Assuming anything that is green in dormant Bermuda is POA is foolish at the very least.


----------



## OD on Grass (Nov 1, 2018)

high leverage said:


> OD on Grass said:
> 
> 
> > high leverage said:
> ...


I'm sorry I made jokes on what is, apparently, such a sensitive topic. I feel like I made a political statement or something. I'll just exit this thread and let the pros handle it.


----------



## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

high leverage said:


> OD on Grass said:
> 
> 
> > high leverage said:
> ...


I mean, if the strategy is to use a non-selective approach, why would op need to determine each individual weed he/she has??!! Sure, identifying the weed is of great importance, but that assumes a selective strategy. This is not that.


----------



## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Smokindog said:


> Even if it's PRG, it's NOT Bermuda and needs to go.
> 
> Anyone here do gly spray on dormant Bermuda? The label on my Eraser A/P says it's OK, domyown says it's OK, and there appear to be a lot of articles/videos in support of using gly on dormant Bermuda as an effective method to rid your lawn of unwanted inhabitants.


Me personally, I am NOT a fan of spraying gly on dormant bermuda as it can have detrimental side effects come Spring time as you never truly know if the lawn is completely asleep or not. I understand what @high leverage is getting at from a professional stand point and blanket spraying lawns with Gly to prevent expensive call backs but I assume most of those lawns are not like the lawns here so from an individual standpoint, I would use a selective herbicide like Celsius(even though it may take several weeks to see it work) but you are safer and will get a more consistent green up come Spring time. Granted if you have a well cared for bermuda lawn and you blanket apply Gly it will recover just fine most likely but that is not a risk I am willing to take.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I've seen a study from Matt @thegrassfactor that shows the effect of gly on bermuda. It does affect the green up. I think the summary was, if you are going to apply gly to dormant, due it in blanket application to even delay to the green up.

Regardless, I think a better approach is to use prodiamine earlier in the fall and prevent the Poa a from establishing.


----------



## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

I echo MQ. If you already have something like Celsius, just use that (what you have on hand). If you want to hose end that stuff, the temps are well below 85F so you could get a bottle and have at it. I wouldn't spray with Gly because that seems like overkill, imo.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I did use a pre-emergent (dithiopyr) in September but we had a horrendously wet October (record rainfalls). Also, I'm not sure this is all annual grass but I'm not sure. Was hoping to get a better response on that here.

Also, unless I read wrong, the delayed green up from using gly is if you use it as the Spring green is beginning. Willing to be corrected but please take a look again at what you referenced. Also interesting is I see people on this board supporting the use of gly as a growth inhibitor .







g-man said:


> I've seen a study from Matt @thegrassfactor that shows the effect of gly on bermuda. It does knock it affect the green up. I think the summary was, if you are going to apply gly to dormant, due it in blanket application to it is even delay to the green up.
> 
> Regardless, I think a better approach is to use prodiamine earlier in the fall and prevent the Poa a from establishing.


Gly IS what I have on hand.



dfw_pilot said:


> I echo MQ. If you already have something like Celsius, just use that (what you have on hand). If you want to hose end that stuff, the temps are well below 85F so you could get a bottle and have at it. I wouldn't spray with Gly because that seems like overkill, imo.


----------



## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

It might be a good time to invest in some good herbicides. You've received a lot of advice; what are you going to do?


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I haven't seen anything to deter me from using gly. It''ll be a month or so. Since you're in the DFW area you know the freeze/warm spell I'm waiting for. It'll happen between now and early February.


dfw_pilot said:


> It might be a good time to invest in some good herbicides. You've received a lot of advice; what are you going to do?


----------



## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Glyphosate is cheap; Just make sure you do a blanket app vs spot treatment.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

SO, we're about to have that "warm up", or at least one of them, in a few days. Heading up into the 60's and more! I've got a LOT more green than I had when I started this thread and it's not Bermuda 

I've been reading and Negate 37WG is now AOK for residential use.

_This winter, combat Poa annua with Quali-Pro's Negate 37WG (newly labeled for residential turf). This annual winter grassy weed (Poa annua) is one of the biggest thorns in the sides of lawn care companies, and homeowners. Negate 37WG provides superior control of Poa annua and other listed weeds on golf courses, sod farms, sports fields, industrial, commercial and residential lawns.
https://www.landscapemanagement.net/quali-pro-negate-37wg/​_
I picked some up from domyown even though they still have it listed "non-residential".

I also have this sprayer
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200646314_200646314

I only plan to treat about 1/2 acre so I'm planning to mix up 1/2 of it in the 21 gallons and then hit it again in 6-8 weeks when I pull out the sprayer for Pre-M

Has anyone else had any experience with Negate??????? I'm not finding a lot of "when to apply" discussions except the snipet I provided above does say "this winter" so I'm thinking I'm OK.

Please share experiences of watering practices before/after spray, ..... and other techniques


----------



## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

That product contains MSM. More is not better. Over do it and you will kill trees.


----------



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Smokindog said:


> SO, we're about to have that "warm up", or at least one of them, in a few days. Heading up into the 60's and more! I've got a LOT more green than I had when I started this thread and it's not Bermuda
> 
> I've been reading and Negate 37WG is now AOK for residential use.
> 
> ...


Keep this away from your St. Augustine.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

ABSOLUTELY! That's why I only have 1/2 acre to treat!


high leverage said:


> Smokindog said:
> 
> 
> > SO, we're about to have that "warm up", or at least one of them, in a few days. Heading up into the 60's and more! I've got a LOT more green than I had when I started this thread and it's not Bermuda
> ...


----------



## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

Rockinar said:


> I just abandon my lawn in the winter. It what it is. Weeds, Poa...have at it. I will deal with it in March/April.


+1


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

There's another Negate thread that I will cross post to because I think this is important enough as it applies to "splitting up" WG type products into smaller applications.

Yes, you can use Negate 37WG on your Bermudagrass now to control poa annua (annual bluegrass). You can apply to either dormant grass or when the grass is fully green, but you do not want to apply a post-emergent like this while the grass is in transition, such as during Spring green-up.

For poa annua, you would use 1.5 oz per Acre. *If you are treating an area smaller than 1 Acre, then the manufacturer recommends diluting the entire 1.5 oz bottle in a gallon of water first (not in your sprayer but in a separate container) since there are different sized prills in the concentrate. You would then use 3 oz of your mixed solution in at least 1 gallon of water per 1000 square feet.* The remaining initial solution can be stored for 2-4 weeks, just be sure you agitate the solution before mixing and re-applying. You can reapply on your dormant turf after 2 weeks if the target weeds are still present.​
I keep the laundry detergent bottles with the spouts for just this purpose (see photo attached). I mixed the entire container of Negate 37WG along with 8 oz of surfactant in this 1.48 gallon bottle. That makes the new concentrate ratio about 4.5 oz/1000 sq ft.

You'll note that the use label fits nicely over the spout on the bottle. I measured the original bottle for the Negate and it holds about 5 oz of liquid to the lower rim. That means one of these bottles of concentrate in at least a 1.25 gallons of water should cover roughly 1100-1200 sq ft. I am still waiting for a reply about backpack use but if I were to use a backpack I'd spray "low and flat" with the wand.

If someone finds errors in my math, please speak up 



UPDATE - It's sunny, calm, and already in the 60's. This area of the lawn has been "troublesome" anyway as there are multiple types of Bermuda in play so I decided to take one for the team and potentially donate it to science 

I walked off the green areas and decided to put 3 bottles of the concentrate (about 15 oz) into my 4 gallon backpack. SHAKE EVERYTHING WELL AND OFTEN!

I sprayed the green in these two areas and will now try to remember to report on them periodically over the next 2 weeks. If it appears to be working I'll use the remainder as a spot spray. If not I'll mix up the tank. I'm guessing they said you can store it for 2-4 weeks means it breaks down once mixed with water. Anyone know????


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Not much if any change after 48 hours.


----------



## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

It looks like DFW is in the 50's and low 60's. Give it time, the colder the slower in my experience. I tackled parsley piert weed and took about 3 weeks to see it die off. Almost gave up and was going to start yanking them by hand. Glad I didn't.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Oh I didn't expect much, I had just promised to post every couple days for the curious 

We've actually been in the upper 60's/low 70's. Got another day or two of that.



Austinite said:


> It looks like DFW is in the 50's and low 60's. Give it time, the colder the slower in my experience. I tackled parsley piert weed and took about 3 weeks to see it die off. Almost gave up and was going to start yanking them by hand. Glad I didn't.


----------



## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Austinite said:


> After looking closer, I really don't think that's POA, in fact it doesnt even look close. These pics look like my lawn, which suddenly greened up well over 60% and it's not POA.


Having the same results with my lawn here on the north side of San Antonio.I believe these mild temps all winter have something to do with it.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

That's not a sudden green up and those areas of the lawn look "different" all summer. It may not be POA (but I think it is) but it sure as heck ain't Bermuda  I'll try to go out later today and get some better pictures and maybe dig up a clump. I'm also going to try to go back through some pictures because these areas have had seed heads that look like POA in the Spring as well.



Redland1 said:


> Austinite said:
> 
> 
> > After looking closer, I really don't think that's POA, in fact it doesnt even look close. These pics look like my lawn, which suddenly greened up well over 60% and it's not POA.
> ...


----------



## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

I checked my entire lawn, POA in the back . Nothing in the front. Not sure what it is either. My Bermuda is still dormant in Alabama, No patchy spots of green.


----------



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

So I'm just shy of 4 weeks since the backpack experiment and everything I sprayed is nicely yellowing. UNFORTUNATELY there is a massive amount of additional green added to the yard.

This weekend will be warm and I'll be doing a blanket of Negate37 at the rate I used in my backpack. I'll also be putting down pre-emergent in the next week.

And so the season begins, perhaps a little early but it's the price we pay for being in the South!


----------



## TopTurf2019 (Apr 20, 2019)

Love the chemicals in the kitchen counter. &#128373;️


----------



## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

first post is a 8 month bump.. seems legit.


----------

