# Chainsaws?



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

I searched and didn't see a thread for gas powered saws. What's everyone running for chainsaws? I have a little husky 460 rancher and it's been pretty decent but I want a smaller pro level saw and maybe a big boy 70cc saw. Maybe something like https://www.sawsuppliers.com/collections/chain-saws/products/echo-cs-2511p-12-professional-rear-handle-chain-saw-12-bar-chain . A little saw for smaller stuff seems pretty nice as opposed to swinging a larger saw for small work.

Anyone have any recommendations, I want to start cutting some wood for our fire pit.


----------



## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

@metro424 I moved this to the Equipment subforum.

I defer to @MasterMech on all things chainsaw. :thumbup:


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I have a Stihl MS 180C that I wouldn't sell to you if you offered me double what it costs new. I use it 4-6 times a year, am bad about leaving gas in it...etc. 3-4 pulls max and she's gtg. Have had it 5 years now.


----------



## cutigers08 (Aug 16, 2019)

I have a Stihl MS440 that is a beast. Can't go wrong with Stihl pro saws.


----------



## Mdjamesd (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm still running my mid 1990's Stihl 026. Finally need to get a new clutch for it.


----------



## SuperD4K (Sep 11, 2020)

I would recommend the Stihl MS362CM or 462CM. The 362CM is 59cc and the 462CM is around 72cc but only weighs about a pound more than the 362CM. If you want to stick with Husky the 572Xp is great too but it weighs around 15lbs instead of 14 like the Stihl. the 462 and 572Xp are both autotune only saws so you dont need to tune the carburetor. The 362 comes autotune and regular carbureted. Which ever one you get spend the extra money and get the lightweight bar it really makes a difference regarding the balance and reach of the saw. I run a 32" on my 462 and 572xp and I ran a 28" bar on the 362CM but the oiler on that one is a little stingy and needed an upgraded oiler. The 462CM is probably the best bang for the buck right now when it comes to a pro saw.


----------



## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I've got a stihl ms291 20in bar. It's a great saw for a homeowner I think.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Pro grade chainsaws are one of few tools that are worth modifying for performance. Be warned, they are a slippery slope even compared to reel mowers. Chainsaw Acquisition Disorder is highly communicable. :wink:

While I like the rear-handle arborist saws (similar to your link), a lot, I consider them specialty tools. They can be a bear to work on compared to other saws too. If we're selling the mid-range stuff like the 460 Rancher and getting into pro saws, :nod: I'd go for a 50cc unit first. Stihl MS261C-M (my personal preference), Husqvarna 550XP, Maybe the Echo CS501P(but I've not run one of them yet). All should handily replace the 460 Rancher with a lighter, stronger unit. I'd stick to a 16" bar on that 50cc, maybe pick up a 20" for it if you absolutely need the length and don't want to upgrade to a bigger saw. With a 16" bar, I think you'll find the 50cc saw to be the one you grab even for small jobs as the latest generation is very powerful while retaining very good handling charactaristics.

Speaking of bigger saws - the 70cc class is pretty much where it's at. These are the flagship performance models for the two European saw makers. I think the Stihl MS462C-M is still pretty much the saw to beat unless you want to venture into the MS500i. Any 70cc saw, I'd probably want a 20" bar and a 28"-32" lightweight bar for it depending on the task. Bucking big logs is much easier with the long bar. For falling trees in rough terrain, I personally like to stick with the smallest bar practical.

You asked what we run - well, ignoring the dozen other saws that I still own, and are in various states of function...... :roll:

I have my Stihl MS261C-M (First generation, engine ported by Mastermind Worksaws in Jamestown TN) which is my go to for just about everything. I didn't keep any of my smaller stuff as I can run that saw all day e'ry day and never get tired of it.

I sold almost all of my big 90cc+ saws, mainly because I just don't do firewood or trees in any serious capacity anymore. But I can't bring myself to part with my MS441C-M (71cc, also modified/ported by MMWS) , yet. It was my main workhorse for trees larger than 20" diameter and has proven that it can keep up with plenty of 90cc saws in 24" wood. But I haven't picked it up in nearly 5 years now and have been considering re-homing it.

I had a Dolmar/Makita 6100 (61 cc IIRC) too that I liked quite a bit, but after I moved South, I just didn't use it enough to justify keeping it. I ended up gifting it to my Uncle-in-law who was always doing my grandparents a solid in keeping up their property. I hear he's put it to good use. :thumbup:

Along the way I think I've rebuilt every saw Stihl has sold in the past 40 years, at least once. My first saw was a Stihl 034 that cut a fair bit of firewood for me.

I was into vintage saws for a bit too. Had a few old saws that were a lot of fun to fix and run, but def harder on me than the newer stuff. I liked old Homelites, had a 360 Professional (still have it actually), C-72, various XL-12's and Super XL's, a couple Super 2's, a Super 1050 Auto (100cc beast) that I sad to see it go (but sadder to see it sit and collect dust) and an old Model 17 from the 50's that I never did much with other than admire it as wall-art. Still have a Poulan Pro 655BP (100cc boss-saw from the 80's), a John Deere (Echo) 66SV twin-cylinder that I need to get back together, a few "box" saws :lol: and a couple that I'm sure I've forgotten about.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Ironically, today was one of the 4-6 times a year I needed my saw. Neighbor had a 40ft pine tree cut down about 6 months ago. Been laying out in his goat pasture waiting for us (read me) to get around to it. At the base it was close to 22". I made a cut on each side and was done in 10 minutes, made 5 total cuts (10 if you count 1 on each side). Took 5 total pulls to get going. Put it back in the storage case for next time. Last time I used it was March when we cut the tops off of his mature Bradford Pears.

Most of the saw work I do is when the In-Laws have a massive pecan limb come down. Wet pecan wood + my saw is rough on the chain, but the motor handles it fine. I usually keep pieces in the 12-16" diameter range for my firepit and leave the small stuff for them to burn. Once every 2 years or so we'll get into something I wish I had a bigger saw with something closer to 50cc instead of the 30cc's I have. That said those times are rare, and for how often I use my saw, it's one of the few tools I prefer the lighter weight and don't mind the 16" bar and smaller displacement. I'm almost always opt for the "bigger more powerful option. This is one of the rare cases I didn't feel I needed it and am happy with what I have.

Just something to think about on the small end.


----------



## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

I have several Sthil saws. They are solid and I have close dealer support.


----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I have just one stihl 271 farmboss. It has always worked great. They're made in the USA too.


----------



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

MasterMech said:


> Pro grade chainsaws are one of few tools that are worth modifying for performance. Be warned, they are a slippery slope even compared to reel mowers. Chainsaw Acquisition Disorder is highly communicable. :wink:
> 
> While I like the rear-handle arborist saws (similar to your link), a lot, I consider them specialty tools. They can be a bear to work on compared to other saws too. If we're selling the mid-range stuff like the 460 Rancher and getting into pro saws, :nod: I'd go for a 50cc unit first. Stihl MS261C-M (my personal preference), Husqvarna 550XP, Maybe the Echo CS501P(but I've not run one of them yet). All should handily replace the 460 Rancher with a lighter, stronger unit. I'd stick to a 16" bar on that 50cc, maybe pick up a 20" for it if you absolutely need the length and don't want to upgrade to a bigger saw. With a 16" bar, I think you'll find the 50cc saw to be the one you grab even for small jobs as the latest generation is very powerful while retaining very good handling charactaristics.
> 
> ...


So we plan on picking up some decent acreage in the next couple years and I feel like getting a good 2-3 saw setup. I will NEVER climb trees but I will drop some. Hence the reason I want a small 25cc like that 2511 (it's like 6 lbs!) first and follow that up with something like an Echo 7310. From looking on the internet it seems like the Echos are a really good value but a little bit heavier than their husky and stihl equivalents.

I know that I want a simple carb setup with no mtronic or husky auto tune if I can avoid it. My 460 rancher has been pretty good for what it is but even with a nice non safety chisel chain it's just not as fast as I would like. May try a muffler mod and retune the carb. I've been watching videos of porting and gasket deletes and I think I'd be willing to give it a try on an old used saw if I can find one cheap. The saw still has almost 160psi compression so it should still have some life left in it.

Most of my other equipment is stihl like my fc95 and fs130 and br200 and honestly none of it has ever needed to go back to the dealer for any type of repair. Actually my chainsaw has been the only piece of power equipment that's needed service and that's mainly because I got it caught in the cut and squished the bar.

I really only want one vintage saw and that's a bow saw like those super xls Those may be the coolest saws possible.


----------



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> Ironically, today was one of the 4-6 times a year I needed my saw. Neighbor had a 40ft pine tree cut down about 6 months ago. Been laying out in his goat pasture waiting for us (read me) to get around to it. At the base it was close to 22". I made a cut on each side and was done in 10 minutes, made 5 total cuts (10 if you count 1 on each side). Took 5 total pulls to get going. Put it back in the storage case for next time. Last time I used it was March when we cut the tops off of his mature Bradford Pears.
> 
> Most of the saw work I do is when the In-Laws have a massive pecan limb come down. Wet pecan wood + my saw is rough on the chain, but the motor handles it fine. I usually keep pieces in the 12-16" diameter range for my firepit and leave the small stuff for them to burn. Once every 2 years or so we'll get into something I wish I had a bigger saw with something closer to 50cc instead of the 30cc's I have. That said those times are rare, and for how often I use my saw, it's one of the few tools I prefer the lighter weight and don't mind the 16" bar and smaller displacement. I'm almost always opt for the "bigger more powerful option. This is one of the rare cases I didn't feel I needed it and am happy with what I have.
> 
> Just something to think about on the small end.


Agreed, lightweight beats big and heavy. A saw on the small side will do great limbing and cleaning up then a bigger saw for the heavier bucking. But I guess that's why it's hard to have one saw do everything.


----------



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

SuperD4K said:


> I would recommend the Stihl MS362CM or 462CM. The 362CM is 59cc and the 462CM is around 72cc but only weighs about a pound more than the 362CM. If you want to stick with Husky the 572Xp is great too but it weighs around 15lbs instead of 14 like the Stihl. the 462 and 572Xp are both autotune only saws so you dont need to tune the carburetor. The 362 comes autotune and regular carbureted. Which ever one you get spend the extra money and get the lightweight bar it really makes a difference regarding the balance and reach of the saw. I run a 32" on my 462 and 572xp and I ran a 28" bar on the 362CM but the oiler on that one is a little stingy and needed an upgraded oiler. The 462CM is probably the best bang for the buck right now when it comes to a pro saw.


I've watched videos of what's required to retune one of those saws and considering I don't plan on cutting at different elevations and seeing as how about 30-35F is as cold as it gets down here I don't think it makes sense for me and if anything it complicates troubleshooting. Kinda The same reason that I don't know if I'll ever have a EFI zero turn, it's not something you can diagnose at home and greatly complicates things


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Why the disdain for the m-tronic stuff? I know, the internet says it's bad. But the internet also said they would kill modded saws with M-tronic and AutoTune and that turned out to be just the opposite. A LOT of the flak is coming from guys that have to have their saw sound just the same as their old 056 from back when. Or, from guys that forget an m-tronic/AT carburetor still has carburetor issues and not every problem is a direct result of the electronic adjustment systems. For my use, which sounds just like how you intend to use yours, it was a big winner. And that's coming from someone who has no issues tuning a carb in the field to optimize performance. It wasn't just the January to July temp swings, it was humidity that made noticeable day to day differences as well. I'm not saying there weren't issues early on with some saws and some components, but I would not shy away from anything new because of that.

I'm def not a subscriber to the "one-saw" plan. But a 50cc pro-saw gets pretty damn close if you keep the size of the wood reasonable. I've had 30cc class saws, 40cc pro saws, and all the rest. I put down the 30cc saws _quick_ once the wood gets over 2-3" on the ground. I like 30cc for light cleanup and pruning, not more. With a 50cc, I gain speed through hardwood limbing without giving up much on the weight/handling side. I usually run .325 chain on the 261, so that keeps those cuts through small wood lightning fast and Cadillac smooth. I have a 3/8" Picco setup for it too, which I LOVE for limbing and cleanup, (lighter AND faster) but that's a pretty rare setup that involves some now discontinued parts.

If you want a cheap saw to play around with muffler mods on and maybe a little mild engine port work, buy or find a Stihl MS250. The Echo CS490 was a good one too for easy gains over stock, and NOT a clamshell engine design.

Here's one hammering through some 18-20" Red Oak like a boss. And notice I'm not sitting on it through the cut either. Must be that weed-whacker gas cap on it. :lol:


----------



## SuperD4K (Sep 11, 2020)

metro424 said:


> I've watched videos of what's required to retune one of those saws and considering I don't plan on cutting at different elevations and seeing as how about 30-35F is as cold as it gets down here I don't think it makes sense for me and if anything it complicates troubleshooting. Kinda The same reason that I don't know if I'll ever have a EFI zero turn, it's not something you can diagnose at home and greatly complicates things


Just make sure you always bring the carb tuning screwdriver with you. You would be surprised how often a little adjustment needs to be made on a chainsaw vs something like a trimmer or leaf blower. I know the newer saws aren't as finicky as the older ones sometimes can be but you would be amazed how quickly a saw running just a little bit too lean can burn up. I watched a landscaper fry a new Dolmar 7900 in about 30 minutes from running lean. The saw was obviously getting hot since it was smoking but he kept saying you have to run them hard to break them in lol.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I had an 85 Harley Sportster 1000 a few years back. It had the Super B carb on it, which was supposed to be an upgrade from the stock Harley carb and it was. I know I'm talking a motorcycle here, but I'll be damned if I didn't hate that thing the year we lived in Virginia (Va Tech) after the wife finished vet school at MSSt. I had to change the main jet size twice a year when we were in Virginia, and I had to change my summertime jet size completely going from MS to VA.

I know it's not an apples to apples thing, but that experience is why I've shied away from having a saw tuned. Running that close to the edge of peak all the time was a pain in my previous experience.


----------



## White94RX (Jan 23, 2021)

The answer is always Stihl when it comes to chainsaws. I've got an MS391, which is an absolute beast. For smaller work, I'm still using my father's old saw from sometime in the 80's. It's stamped "Made in West Germany" on the bar, so it has to be from sometime before the wall came down.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

SuperD4K said:


> metro424 said:
> 
> 
> > I've watched videos of what's required to retune one of those saws and considering I don't plan on cutting at different elevations and seeing as how about 30-35F is as cold as it gets down here I don't think it makes sense for me and if anything it complicates troubleshooting. Kinda The same reason that I don't know if I'll ever have a EFI zero turn, it's not something you can diagnose at home and greatly complicates things
> ...


Well, he wasn't all wrong, I do agree with keeping the engine well-loaded for the first few tanks of fuel. Avoid no-load WOT, and I wouldn't use a brand-new saw for limbing conifers. Still no excuse to starve an excellent saw like the 7900 to death like that.  Moment of silence please...

It's worth mentioning that this is the very problem M-Tronic and AutoTune were created to solve. Limiter caps can be defeated, and often were by professional users, and then denying all of the "warranty" claims created makes for some brand image issues. Tuning a saw properly is not like adjusting a blower or trimmer carb. Those engines see max load as soon as you pin the throttle so setting them for max RPM under load is relatively easy and results in a good tune. Obvious hazards aside, that's a bit trickier with a saw. Relatively few users have a good ear for proper tune, and rev-limited ignition coils make no-load tuning with a tach pretty much impossible. Chainsaws are also easily some of the highest performing (power dense) engines in the OPE world, and have some of the greatest potential for cooling issues which is what makes a bad (especially lean) tune so lethal.

Old saws tune great when they are sealed up properly. But 20+ years tends to take a toll on bearing tolerances, seal materials, and gaskets. :nod: Having the convenient ability to adjust the carb is a band-aid for air-leaks and carburetor/fuel issues, which are the root causes for a "finicky" engine 99.9% of the time. Sort of reminds me of all the TBI fuel injection systems that were replaced with a carburetor (outside of go-fast reasons...) to get the engine to "run right".


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

White94RX said:


> The answer is always Stihl when it comes to chainsaws. I've got an MS391, which is an absolute beast. For smaller work, I'm still using my father's old saw from sometime in the 80's. It's stamped "Made in West Germany" on the bar, so it has to be from sometime before the wall came down.


You're missing out if you discount Husqvarna, Echo, and Makita/Dolmar. Even RedMax, Shindawa, Solo, and EMak have made some stand-out models. Stihl has certainly made their share of turds and boat anchors.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> You're missing out if you discount Husqvarna, Echo, and Makita/Dolmar. Even RedMax, Shindawa, Solo, and EMak have made some stand-out models. Stihl has certainly made their share of turds and boat anchors.


This. I'm personally a Stihl guy, but I'm a home gamer when it comes to lawn care. One of my guys at the body shop in Va had a weekend lawn care business and he hated Stihl stuff. He was strictly a Husqy guy for his stuff.

Not saying he was justified or right or wrong. Also not saying I would choose a Husqy over a Stihl because I wouldn't, but I certainly look.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> > You're missing out if you discount Husqvarna, Echo, and Makita/Dolmar. Even RedMax, Shindawa, Solo, and EMak have made some stand-out models. Stihl has certainly made their share of turds and boat anchors.
> ...


There were saws of the past, like the 254XP, 262XP, 272XP that put a hurtin' on anything comparable by Stihl. Stihl guys put their saws back on the tailgate when the 288XP and 385/390XP's came out. Not to mention, those saws were quite a bit easier on the user after full day than the 044/046/066's of the time. For a good while Husqvarna was the undisputed king of 50cc performance with the 346XP. Dolmar was winning in the big cc saws too with the 7900/7910, and the 9010.

That said, Stihl always had the mid-range stuff and entry level saws mastered. 029 (super) and the MS290 it evolved into, 028 Wood Boss, the 009s, the MS250, the 017/018/MS170/180, etc. All fantastic mid-grade platforms.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> There were saws of the past, like the 254XP, 262XP, 272XP that put a hurtin' on anything comparable by Stihl. Stihl guys put their saws back on the tailgate when the 288XP and 385/390XP's came out. Not to mention, those saws were quite a bit easier on the user after full day than the 044/046/066's of the time. For a good while Husqvarna was the undisputed king of 50cc performance with the 346XP. Dolmar was winning in the big cc saws too with the 7900/7910, and the 9010.
> 
> That said, Stihl always had the mid-range stuff and entry level saws mastered. 029 (super) and the MS290 it evolved into, 028 Wood Boss, the 009s, the MS250, the 017/018/MS170/180, etc. All fantastic mid-grade platforms.


What was the major change that put the Stihls back in contention?


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> > There were saws of the past, like the 254XP, 262XP, 272XP that put a hurtin' on anything comparable by Stihl. Stihl guys put their saws back on the tailgate when the 288XP and 385/390XP's came out. Not to mention, those saws were quite a bit easier on the user after full day than the 044/046/066's of the time. For a good while Husqvarna was the undisputed king of 50cc performance with the 346XP. Dolmar was winning in the big cc saws too with the 7900/7910, and the 9010.
> ...


With Stihl - not much was changing in a positive direction (performance wise) from when the 024/026, 034/036, 044, 046, 064/066 saws were introduced in the late 80's to their final evolutions to the MS260, MS360, MS440, MS460, and the MS660. Along the way there were several incremental evolutions to the engine specs as emissions regulations tightened and some minor changes for durability but for the most part, each chassis design remained the same for the better part of 20 years. Die hard fans of these saws will tell you they peaked performance wise somewhere in the mid 90's with the 026 Pro, 034 AV Super and later 036 Pro, the early 044's and 046's and the "flat-top" iterations of the 066.

As this generation aged, the rubber-based AV system would deteriorate much like rubber chassis bushings do in the automotive world but at an accelerated rate due to the constant exposure to fuel and oil residue. Rear-handle durability was an issue for many of the heavy users as well. Countless 1128 and 1121 series (044 and 066 families respectively) saws with "field engineering" applied to that particular ailment.

These saws are known for particularly poor air filter endurance on the smaller models like the 026/036. The lack of any real pre-cleaning and small element size made air filters a high maintenance item and drove the development of a band-aid technology, IntelliCarb. (026 Pro, 036 Pro, and all MSxxx models had this along with the entire homeowner and farm saw line.) This was a sealed passage that connected the clean side of the air-filter to the backside of the carburetor metering diaphragm, which is normally vented simply to atmosphere. While it did nothing to actually improve the ultimate performance of the engine, it at least kept the carburetor metering the right amount of fuel for whatever amount of air was making it past the filter. This "solved" the issue of a poorly running engine due to a clogged filter and the operator could happily rev the engine to full rpms where when presented with any sort of load it would fall flat on its face. On the larger saws, Stihl's solution was to simply engineer the **** out the air filter itself resulting in the HD and HD2 filters that were great and a big reason why the saws that received them have such a great reputation for long-term engine durability. If you look at the chainsaw aftermarket, there are oversized aftermarket air filters and housings, "green weenie" foam elements designed to be run without the housing, automotive style cone filters and other solutions all revolving around the inferior filtration endurance of early 1128 and 1121 series saws. Hell, K & N makes a filter for these saws. :nod:

Enter the MS241, MS261, MS361/362, MS441, MS461, MS661 and the migration to quad-port and stratocharged two-stroke technology. The MS441 and the MS361 were technology leaders for this generation, the 361 introduced spring-based anti-vibe mounts and a quad port engine while the 441 had all of that and added air pre-cleaning (while retaining the excellent HD2 air filters), stratocharged engine tech, and later on in the second generation, M-Tronic. The shift to spring based AV on the saw chassis and introduction of air pre-cleaning (literally a licensed copy Husqvarna's Air Injection) were all major upgrades from the previous generation of saws. The introduction of M-Tronic (the C-M models) to these saws also really helped solidify consistent performance across many user applications and mitigate the cold-blooded behavior some stratocharged engines can exhibit. With the exception of the M-Tronic system, this is all stuff Husqvarna, (Air Injection pre-cleaning, quad ports and spring AV) and RedMax/Zenoah (Stratified charge tech - Stratocharging) had been perfecting in the prior decade. It didn't hurt that the new M-Tronic saws were not nearly as trouble-prone as the early AutoTune saws (576AT anybody?) were and Husqvarna's new pro saw flagships, the 550XP and the 562XP, were also suffering durability issues in the early generations. (Still two fantastic saws and the ease of assembly and diagnostics is evidence of the engineering prowess that created them.) Husqvarna was also lacking a new 70cc class saw (Never mind the 90cc class!) to compete with the MS441, the MS461, and the MS462 as all of those models were widely available and thoroughly beating up the practically geriatric 372XP X-Torq before the 572XP was finally launched.

EDIT to add: As a sidenote, the 50cc and 60cc class Stihls have undergone a few revisions as the years went by. The 261 was introduced, then revised to add a non-m-tronic model, reduce weight and a slight power bump. Then revised again to lose even more weight, and add more power - which pretty much negated the need for the MS241, at least in NA. The 362 replaced the beloved 361, was declared a turd in the beginning (by comparison to the 361 and it's modified potential) and then revised to add M-Tronic, and reduce weight. By the time the saw modding guys got ahold of it, especially the revised M-Tronic models, nobody was calling it a turd anymore, and it's orange competition was still battling bottom-end issues.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

That summary is awesome, thank you @MasterMech . I know quite a few companies that are really good at "borrowing" other companies tech, then improving upon it and coming out ahead in the end. From your write up, it sounds like this played a big part in what Stihl pulled off. I would assume that combined with trickling down the improvements to "homeowner" models, have helped buoy their place in the saw world.

EDIT: It's also pretty nutty that you can go from the MS 180C like I have at 30cc and 9.3lbs and jump to a MS 261 C-M and get all the way up to 50cc with only increasing the weight to 10.8lbs.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> That summary is awesome, thank you @MasterMech . I know quite a few companies that are really good at "borrowing" other companies tech, then improving upon it and coming out ahead in the end. From your write up, it sounds like this played a big part in what Stihl pulled off. I would assume that combined with trickling down the improvements to "homeowner" models, have helped buoy their place in the saw world.


There was a big technology exchange of sorts that happened sometime in the early 2000's. More of a survival tactic for the industry at large since the EPA and EU were clamping down on OPE emissions and battery tech was nowhere near ready for the home-gamer prime time. Hence the sudden death of anything 2-stroke that didn't absolutely have to be. Dolmar had 4-stroke saw prototypes from my understanding but I never personally got to see any evidence of them. Stratocharged 2-strokes can actually run amazingly clean, without a performance hit or exhaust scrubber, especially if compared to a traditional oil-breather.

Really what pulled Stihl out of their rut in my opinion, more than the engine improvements, was when they finally corrected the rectal-cranium inversion and started paying attention to what professional users were saying about ergonomics in addition to real-world in-field performance, and long-term maintenance. It's one thing to show up to a "performance comparison" fully prepped with perfect clean filters and a saw that's tuned for that particular day's weather, it's quite another to build something that can replicate that performance on the average jobsite, every day, with a user that gets paid by the bd ft.

Stihl has done plenty of their own innovation, and like it or not, the superior European saw designs introduced in the 80's really nailed the lid on the coffin for American saw makers like Poulan, Homelite, and McCulloch. Stihl is bringing fuel injection to handheld OPE, which started with the cut-off/concrete saws, then moved into chainsaws like the MS500i. Of course, all of this requires cash and Stihl had plenty of it due to introducing many professional grade features on their mid and entry level saws. Post 1992, just about everybody who bought a chainsaw for their home or farm, and cared, owned either an 1123 (017/018/021/023/025 >> MS170, MS180, MS210, MS230, MS250), an 1127 (029, 039, MS290, MS310, MS390), or more often than not BOTH. And many owned an MS180, MS250, and an MS290, and then upgraded the MS290 to an MS390 (or went pro grade), after owning 018's, 025's, and 029's prior.


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

One saw I haven't seen mentioned in here yet is the MS 194 C-E. 31ccs @ 7.6lbs and can accept a 16" bar.

If I was starting over I would have a really really hard time having to choose between that and a MS 261 C-M with a 20" bar. The easy answer is to have both. In a 1 saw situation, that's a hell of a tough decision in regards to power to weight ratio.

I'm not as afraid of EFI as I used to be. After having worked on it on a few ATV/UTVs...etc, there's really not a ton that can go wrong. How that translates in scale though to something as small as a chainsaw may be another story though.


----------



## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

Tinman's Saws on YouTube is a good resource. He also has a whole series on porting saws which is nice. I've cut close to 100 trees with a 455 Rancher and it's all I need BUT I also would like a bigger saw, for a big bar, so that I can stand up and buck. I've been eye balling Echo's Pro Line, in particular the CS-7310P (full wrap). Tinman also has me looking at older McCulloch Saws. The practical answer is that my 455 with a sharp chain is my perfect saw but it's alway good to have a few back up saws...right.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Grass Clippins said:


> Tinman's Saws .... but it's alway good to have a few back up saws...right.


.... and that is how you end up with 50+ saws in the garage and wife that won't speak to you. :lol:

Vintage saws are awesome ... but they are not easy on the body. I ran mine for fun only. The 441 came out when there was work to do.


----------



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

MasterMech said:


> Grass Clippins said:
> 
> 
> > Tinman's Saws .... but it's alway good to have a few back up saws...right.
> ...


Hahaha I had at one time 3 Jacobsen eclipses, 4 toro flex's, a triplex, zero turn and a 48" hydro walk behind. I was in the doghouse for a while but chainsaws are more easily hidden so I figure 3 is probably the limit for me.


----------



## TheCutShop (Jun 24, 2021)

Husky saws are fast in the cut, can't argue that fact. With that being said all of my saws are Stihl.

I imported the fist 241C-m in the country. Stihl was pissed to say the least.  It's a fun ground saw after it was worked over by MM. I usually grab it before my 261C-m.

The auto tune is great, my standard carb saws usually sit in the shelf.

For fire wood I have been grabbing the 661 because it's fun or if I'm tired the ported 462C-m comes out.

Still waiting on a 500i, damn supply chain.

CAD is serious, be careful out there friends.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> One saw I haven't seen mentioned in here yet is the MS 194 C-E. 31ccs @ 7.6lbs and can accept a 16" bar.
> 
> If I was starting over I would have a really really hard time having to choose between that and a MS 261 C-M with a 20" bar. The easy answer is to have both. In a 1 saw situation, that's a hell of a tough decision in regards to power to weight ratio.
> 
> I'm not as afraid of EFI as I used to be. After having worked on it on a few ATV/UTVs...etc, there's really not a ton that can go wrong. How that translates in scale though to something as small as a chainsaw may be another story though.


Descended from the MS192T. I haven't run one but I'm familiar with the 192/193 and where they fall in the line. Honestly, while I do like this style of saw, I just don't like 30cc saws for ground work. A 50cc with the right bar can make for a very nice handling saw that while it's not appreciably faster through 2-3" limbs, it's going to rip through 6"+ stuff just as fast and be plenty capable all the way up through 18-20" wood.

Light-duty ground work is the reason saws like the MS241 exist(ed). On paper, it didn't have much on the 50cc MS261. But there were subtle differences in the chassis, specifically the bar mount that made it a specialist for when handling and balance mattered more than power and bucking logs. The MS241 used a 3005 series bar mount vs the 3003 series mount on the 261. One bar stud/nut instead of two, 3/8" Picco chain instead of .325 or standard 3/8". The 3005 series bars are slimmer and lighter than 3003 series which vastly improves handling. You also have some really short options if working in tight spaces. (FYI: a 16" 3005 series is noticeably shorter than a 16" 3003). Basically, the 241 took all the attributes you are looking for in a saw like the MS194 but put it on a chassis that had far superior reliability, durability, and service access.

_But MM - why are you rambling on about a saw that isn't readily available in the US anymore?? _ :bd: Because you can setup a current generation MS261 to be pretty dang close to what the 241 was. There's roughly a 1/2 lb difference in weight, and keep a 16" bar on it, it will handle beautifully. IF YOU CAN FIND IT, the 3/8" Picco cutting setup will make it even better for light work.

I highly recommend you get the 261C-M first, with a 16" bar setup. It's a pretty solid one-saw plan. >IF< you still want a bigger bar for bigger work, then go ahead and buy a 20" setup for it. Having the extra B&C on hand is almost as good as having a second saw should you need to rescue a pinched bar from a tree.

All info (including part numbers) on bar & chain combos for the 261 are here: https://firewoodhoardersclub.com/forums/threads/50cc-chain-shoot-out-3-bars-3-chains-5-sprockets-and-1-saw.3690/

Or you can grab a snack and watch my 261 (before it was ported) try 'em all out Project Farm Style on YT. (I did this vid back in 2014!) Keep in mind that a current gen 261 is lighter, and more powerful than my 1st gen unit, which is bone stock, in the vid.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

TheCutShop said:


> Husky saws are fast in the cut, can't argue that fact. With that being said all of my saws are Stihl.
> 
> I imported the fist 241C-m in the country. Stihl was pissed to say the least.  It's a fun ground saw after it was worked over by MM. I usually grab it before my 261C-m.
> 
> ...


The 241 was one of those saws you didn't understand the purpose of until you picked it up, and then it was immediate.

I stopped myself from buying a 661 because having a saw like that means you get more trees sized to match. :shock: That gravity of work for personal firewood was waaaaay above my pay-grade. :lol:


----------



## TheCutShop (Jun 24, 2021)

Diesel 6x6 splitter makes easy work of the big wood. I built this using a Hustler side hill mower. Lol


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

TheCutShop said:


> Diesel 6x6 splitter makes easy work of the big wood. I built this using a Hustler side hill mower. Lol


I'm guessing you have mechanical help in moving the wood to and from the splitter as well. (Tractor(s)?  ) See what I mean about big saws? :lol:


----------



## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

I've cut and split my own firewood for the past 20 years or so. I like the physical activity of it. I prefer split wood to limbs and smaller trees. If you have the equipment to deal with it it's not too bad.


----------



## metro424 (May 26, 2017)

MasterMech said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> > One saw I haven't seen mentioned in here yet is the MS 194 C-E. 31ccs @ 7.6lbs and can accept a 16" bar.
> ...


https://www.gardenland.com/product/stihl-ms-500i-chainsaw/
I didn't realize stihl has a EFI saw now. Price could get you 3 carbed saws though.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

metro424 said:


> ...
> https://www.gardenland.com/product/stihl-ms-500i-chainsaw/
> I didn't realize stihl has a EFI saw now. Price could get you 3 carbed saws though.


The MS500i has been taunted and teased for many, many years now. Available in Europe, then a few made it to USA, now they are "released" .... but scarce. Sigh. Stihl can have the most frustrating product release timelines. Many saws prior were similar.


----------



## Retromower (Jan 28, 2021)

metro424 said:


> I searched and didn't see a thread for gas powered saws. What's everyone running for chainsaws? I have a little husky 460 rancher and it's been pretty decent but I want a smaller pro level saw and maybe a big boy 70cc saw. Maybe something like https://www.sawsuppliers.com/collections/chain-saws/products/echo-cs-2511p-12-professional-rear-handle-chain-saw-12-bar-chain . A little saw for smaller stuff seems pretty nice as opposed to swinging a larger saw for small work.
> 
> Anyone have any recommendations, I want to start cutting some wood for our fire pit.


Ive got quite a bit of experience with Stihl and some with Echo. Both are great saws, its all what you like. My father would tell you that the reason you buy a Stihl is for the chain. Oregon chains are OK but they cant hold a candle to a Stihl Pico.
Back when I lived in Wisconsin and cut firewood every summer, my rule was that I always bought Japanese: Toyota trucks, Honda lawn equipment and Echo trimmers and chainsaws.
Back in those days, my brother and I would cut firewood together much of the time and being siblings, be competitive and him being a proud Stihl owner; we would always kind of have a little race. Im proud to say that my Echo could compete head to head with his Stihl and sometimes would beat it. He had a Stihl Farm Boss and an 021 and my Echo was basically coparable to an 021, just a nice little limbing saw.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Worth mentioning that you can run Stihl chain on ANY brand of saw as they pretty much manufacture it in all sizes. Chain could be a separate multi-page thread all on it's own.

The era of 1123 and 1127 Stihl's (017/018/021/023/025 and the 029/ 029 Super/ and 039) introduced the "clamshell" style builds which differ from the professional class saws. Before, the Farm or Landowner targeted saws were simply low-displacement or detuned versions of the professional saws. Parts were interchangeable. Ex: The 056 Magnum was the go-to timber falling saw in the line but there were Super and "vanilla" versions too, along with the 045 which was just a low-displacement version. But all were built with the same design and materials. The 038 Magnum, Super, and vanilla or Farm Boss versions, same. But beginning with the 029 (for the Farm Boss anyways), the materials used and design of the saw and it's engine changed dramatically compared to the elite professional saws. The chassis moved from being 2 magnesium castings forming an integrated crankcase with the aluminum cylinder bolted to the top, to completely separating the chassis from the engine. The engine was now a completely self-contained module and the chassis was a separate one-piece reinforced plastic structure attached to the rear handle via rubber springs or buffers. This makes internal engine work more labor intensive but to be honest, that's pretty rare on the majority of saws out there anyways. You could however buy and replace the complete engine as a unit and work to the engine did not risk chassis damage due to mistakes. Also, major engine work does not require special tools or methods as some split crankcase designs can. The main drawback of the clamshell design is that they are relatively inefficient in use of materials so they tend to be heavy for a given engine size. This much more evident on a 60 cc saw vs a 30 cc however. The necessity of including the crankcase in the the same casting as the cylinder makes them quite difficult for the chainsaw nuts to modify for more ponies as well, hence you don't see a whole bunch of these saws with engine port work done.

The 029 and 029 Super would have been the mid-range siblings to the 034 and later 034 Super/036 saws.

Husqvarna has a few variations in construction as well, as the 345/350 shared some design with the legendary 346XP. You COULD retro 346 engine in the 345/350. They had a weird 3 piece engine design that allowed you to bolt the 346XP crank and top-end into the 345/350 chassis. Can you say - sleeper saw? :lol: But I have run a 61 with a 272XP engine in it as well. :shock: It was almost bone-stock appearing. Husq would also push out factory neutered versions of the pro saws that were sold as mid-range models. The 365 is the best known example of this. Not at all beyond the average backyard mech to remove the transfer covers, remove the restricting baffles and gain a bunch of power without ponying up for an actual 372XP. There were other differences in filtration primarily, but for an occasional use farm or firewood saw, not a deal breaker by any means.

Echo is pretty well regarded amongst saw enthusiasts in that most of their mid-range saws are spilt-crankcase, removable cylinder designs on aluminum chassis castings. ie: The CS590 Timberwolf was $399.00 and built similar to the larger CS-600 and CS620P but priced in the ballpark of the MS271/MS291 and 450/455 Rancher. Did it make for a "better" saw? That's debatable, especially if we are limiting the discussion to unmodified saws as all of the competing units have some pretty strong features. But the mod guys sure did like them! :nod:


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> Husq would also push out factory neutered versions of the pro saws that were sold as mid-range models. The 365 is the best known example of this. Not at all beyond the average backyard mech to remove the transfer covers, remove the restricting baffles and gain a bunch of power without ponying up for an actual 372XP.


This is my concern with the EFI saws in the long term. Depends on how they do their ECMs. Had a 75HP Merc, same exact motor as the 90HP but with a restrictor. Problem is you take the restrictor out of the 75 to make it a 90 it throws fuel/air mixture warnings and shuts the engine down. You can guess how I know that... Merc is also pretty tight with their ECMs, unless you ebay 1, or find a salvaged 1, you can't just order an ECM without your serial number. PITA to say the least, but prevents people from doing exactly what you stated.

All good now that I have a different boat with the 150 :mrgreen:


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> > Husq would also push out factory neutered versions of the pro saws that were sold as mid-range models. The 365 is the best known example of this. Not at all beyond the average backyard mech to remove the transfer covers, remove the restricting baffles and gain a bunch of power without ponying up for an actual 372XP.
> ...


Sounds like a Speed Density system.

You couldn't swap cylinder heads and cams freely on many automotive systems either. Nothing that significantly affected volumetric efficiency could be modified, ECU access locked or not, you HAD to intervene somehow, often by re-mapping, if you expected it to run correctly. GM TBI, Ford EEC IV before the MAF (Mustang 5.0's prior to '89) I'm sure there were a few others. The switch to Mass AIr Flow monitoring vs the Speed Density method relaxed some of these headaches though.

These systems are a little different than automotive or even marine systems. Modifying the ECM software is unnecessary because it is always self-tuning for best performance. And these saws are doing this without any device to monitor exhaust O2, or incoming airflow. Even a Speed Density injection system uses an O2 sensor to monitor fuel trim.

How can this work? Well, how did you tune your carbureted bike/car/truck/plane without all the electronic do-dads? 
You used a butt-dyno and your ear to tune for best performance. By adjusting fuel trim (esssentiall trial and error) under certain conditions, the saw always stays in optimum tune. Even modified.

The AutoTune and M-Tronic saws so far have taken to altered compression ratios, crankcase volume, and port timing with no issues. Just crank them up and they dial themselves in. The 500i appears to be no different.






If you really want to see what's inside a fuel injected saw, it's all in here: (monster thread warning)

https://opeforum.com/threads/mastermind-meets-the-ms500i.19054/


----------



## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

@MasterMech glad to see it's a dumb ECM instead of a smart one.


----------



## ALPHA (Aug 25, 2021)

I have them all. MS026, MS362, MS400 (on order), MS500i, MS661, 372XP, 572XP, 390XP. If you're looking for a 70CC saw buy the elusive and very hard to find 500i. It's the best all around saw to be had. Dang near the same weight as an MS362 with tons, tons more power. It balances nicely, starts easily and does everything well, from felling to bucking. Just keep a decent selection bar and chain combos around and there's nothing it won't do.


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

I purchased the MS 261 C-M Last spring... I too wanted a small pro model for durability. I have used it one season. Felling trees in Northern MI. I upgraded from a small homeowner Stihl. No issues starting, running what so ever. I am a home owner/property owner not a chainsaw expert.  I am happy with my decision.


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

ALPHA said:


> ... Dang near the same weight as an MS362 with tons, tons more power. ...


More like similar weight as the 462, the 500i is 1.5-1.6lbs heavier than the 362 if the written specs are accurate. That's a lot in the saw world.

But you're right, the 14lb range is where some of the chunkier 60cc saws fall, even in the professional class.

For those not privvy to the professional saw world - to get an idea of the performance gap we're talking here:

The Stihl MS391 is their top-dawg Landowner or Farm saw. 13.7lbs making 4.4 ponies. $630 with a 20" bar (note to self: :shock: )

The Stihl MS362 is the pro-class equivalent to the MS391. 12.8lbs making 4.7 hearsies for $780.

The Stihl MS500i is their current "hero" model. A 13.9lb saw (less than a decent burger's difference over the MS391! :lol making 6.7 glorious horsepower bone-freaking stock. For a measly $1,360.

The MS462C-M is the volume production 70cc pro-saw, 13.2lbs making 6.0HP for $1,180.

Competition? The Husqvarna 572XP is 14.5lbs, making 5.8 hp, for $1,030. The Echo CS7310P weighs in at 14.9lbs making ?? hp because Echo doesn't advertise hp :bd: and retails for $800. (saved the best part for last! :lol


----------



## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@MasterMech I'm pretty sure this will be my next set up when inventory's are back to normal.

CS-7310 Power Head 
32" Tsumura Bar

Do I need this as a home owner with 3ish acres in Georgia...absolutely not. Do I want it...absolutely yes. :lol:


----------



## ALPHA (Aug 25, 2021)

You seem like you suffer from chainsaw addiction too haha! The 462 does look like a great saw too, the remaining 461's have been getting pillaged from dealers here, definitely a resistance to go to the 462, but that always happens when a venerable saw is phased out. For me there's no point in buying a 462 as my lineup really can't justify one.

I judge weight more off of feeling than what paper reads. For me the 500i is no heavier feeling than my 362, despite a 5 inch difference in bar length. The 500i is also not a fatiguing saw to run IMO, the chain speed is so fast that it doesn't pull the saw in to the wood like a 390 or 661. I think the 500 is a formidable all around'er, but at a premium price. Undoubtedly, the 462 is a top notch choice too!

Echo's don't flip my switch. If I wanted to go off brand I'd get a Dolkita, but nothing standouts to me in that lineup right now.



MasterMech said:


> ALPHA said:
> 
> 
> > ... Dang near the same weight as an MS362 with tons, tons more power. ...
> ...


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Grass Clippins said:


> @MasterMech I'm pretty sure this will be my next set up when inventory's are back to normal.
> 
> CS-7310 Power Head
> 32" Tsumura Bar
> ...


If I was still in the game, I'd def want to try the 7310 up against the 462 or even the 500i. It's nearly half the price - dang.

There are chainsaw enthusiast get togethers where you can do exactly that. But they lead directly to modified saws and that's a habit that's much harder to kick. :lol:

There's usually a big one in TN every year. Have to keep an ear out for that one. Like I'd have time.... but still!


----------



## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

@ALPHA I am a recovering victim of CAD for sure. Had a Dolmar 6100, loved it! I like the 6400/7300/7900 and derivatives too. Makita is ending production for gas powered OPE in 2022 I hear.  Some of the vintage Dolmar is pretty awesome too. I've gotten to try out the 166 and a KMS4 (rotary engine!).

Some Echo's really wake up with just a quick muffler tweak... (CS490 is one). I've had the privilege of getting to try a CS-1201 too. Those are pretty rare and never sold in the US if I remember right.

Lots of enthusiasts poo poo the Stihl MS441, which I still own, because it's heavier than a MS460/461 but less power, and it's far more complex of a machine to work on. (also a ding with the loggers and firefighters that work in remote ground) But it's got about 20 years better technology in the anti-vibe and at the end of the day, I could tell the difference over my MS460's. And we more than fixed the power thing, which was never lacking in the first place.

Your point is not lost though! There's much more to saws than what's on paper. And that's what keeps the hobby fun actually.


----------

