# Soil test advice?



## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

First soil test ever,came a little late but better late than never any advice be appreciated


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Wow, your Mg is off the charts! Whatever you do, do NOT apply dolamitic limestone. Make sure the limestone you get is purely calcitic. Do you have access to bulk compost in your area? You would benefit from doing a 1/2 inch to 1 inch compost topdressing since your organic matter is pretty low at 2.5%. This will give you a much better long term benefit than dumping more fertilizer.

I have to say that I am puzzled that you have optimal calcium, but such low pH.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Deadlawn quite literally off the charts :lol: :lol: :lol:

What's a good organic matter%?

From what I read about topdressing it should only really be done on a 1/4" to 1/2" layer but if you have had experience with more then that's awesome. You don't want to suffocate your grass. Don't cheap out on this and make sure you spread it the correct way. I had someone dump the material in my driveway and then wheelbarrow around and dump piles in my yard. After that they started spreading it. Went to heavy in the front and too light in the back. The areas they dumped the big piles they left heavy and other areas in the yard were light so in the heavy areas it suffocated my grass and now I'm trying to get it to grow back before my growing season ends. I would recommend if you do this to get a compost spreader that you load up and walk through your yard or the rolling one so it can spread evenly so you don't run into the issues I had.

here's a calc where you can see how much you need based on your SF and depth you want https://mcgillcompost.com/mcgill-compost-products/compost-calculator#toggle-id-2

here's a video on the 2 compost spreaders I have see be effective 




on the calcitic lime make sure to apply per bags recommendations. Mine I think was 12#/K every 4-6 months. I was trying to find some stuff online but was told here to look at the big box stores. Went to lowes and got 5 bags for $60.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Mardel74 
UDel reports soil test results as a fertility index. That is they convert test results into a grade based on a 0 to 100 scale. That makes for a bit of work to convert the indexes back to the raw test results that most of us use to help with evaluations.
That being said, I like UDel's grading system as it's very generous with recommended nutrient levels. (Some schools/labs have gone overboard with the environmental PC) P is graded on a 1:1 basis. So a FI of 52 is actually 52 ppm (M3)--that's very good. Your Mg is only 184 ppm via M3. That is NOT a big deal for concern. The test results show most nutrients (especially micros) at decent levels. Just follow the UDel recommendations.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> I have to say that I am puzzled that you have optimal calcium, but such low pH.


Yeah, it's because that lab isn't reporting the actual values of how much of each of the macronutrients were in the soil, but are reporting an "index value."

Basically, there is a level that the lab is deeming as "optimum" and they are giving that amount an index value of "100" on their scale. So, even though the reported soil test results show phosphorus at "52" and potassium at "51" this doesn't mean that there is nearly as much potassium as phosphorus in that soil.

For that matter, the "140" for magnesium and "73" for calcium are similarly a side-effect of the testing facility attempting to make it easier for the reader to understand. However, the way the results are reported make it look like there is more magnesium in that soil than calcium, which is almost surely not the case.

However, rather than simplifying the presentation, what that report format does is make it more difficult for the grower to make their own interpretation of the soil test without digging further into the lab's report details, as the "raw data" has been obscured for the macronutrients. (Without having seen the report firsthand, it's possible those details could be on the back of the page; I know the info is available on the udel website.) It also means there can be some inconsistencies in the interpretation -- for example, I speculate that even if each of Ca, Mg, and K were right at an index value of 100, that soil would still have a pH well below 6.5.

Personally, I'd like to see a test which shows at least the base saturation percentages for each of the cations (calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, etc.) and preferably measurements for each of those in either ppm or pounds/acre in order to allow the grower to more readily moderate the lab's interpretation with their own experience and approach.

However, back to the soil test for @Mardel74...

Calcitic lime is recommended, as @Deadlawn said. Personally, I would suggest fast-acting calcitic lime from Lowes (Sta-Green brand), as it is inexpensive, readily available, and can be applied monthly up to three times a year in accordance with the recommendations on the label.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@ken-n-nancy

You probably know something I don't but the Sta-Green specifically says

"for best results apply when turf is actively growing. Sta-Green can be applied up to 3 times a year"


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

mjh648 said:


> @ken-n-nancy
> 
> You probably know something I don't but the Sta-Green specifically says
> 
> "for best results apply when turf is actively growing. Sta-Green can be applied up to 3 times a year"


Thanks for the catch. I'll fix my posting - that was a mistake on my part, typing too fast without enough thought...

When I've applied it before, I've done every 60 days during the growing season, but that amounts to only 3 times a year up here in New Hampshire. Down there, your growing season is markedly longer....


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> Basically, there is a level that the lab is deeming as "optimum" and they are giving that amount an index value of "100" on their scale.


A point needs clarified to prevent people from targeting an FI of 100 (unlikely that people would do the math, but you never know).
An FI value of 100 is the TOP end of "optimum". Values above 100 on a FY index are considered excessive. Anything in the green could be optimal, depending on CEC and soil texture etc. In general, Optimum is best defined as a range, rather than a specific number.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> > Basically, there is a level that the lab is deeming as "optimum" and they are giving that amount an index value of "100" on their scale.
> 
> 
> A point needs clarified to prevent people from targeting an FI of 100 (unlikely that people would do the math, but you never know).
> An FI value of 100 is the TOP end of "optimum". Values above 100 on a FY index are considered excessive. Anything in the green could be optimal, depending on CEC and soil texture etc. In general, Optimum is best defined as a range, rather than a specific number.


Agreed. Thanks, Ridgerunner, for posting the clarification -- it helps having us all here to cover for one another!


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@ken-n-nancy i guess other limes can be put down in the 50#/K that these soil tests recommend but all these calcitic ones are in the 10-12#/K.

Researching some different brands I came across Espoma Lightning Lime (https://www.domyown.com/msds/ESPOMALIGHTNINGLIMEFACTSHEET.pdf) and on their bag they state that their product is equal to 5 bags of regular lime. So what's regular lime? Dolomite? Something like this would lead me to believe that if a soil test recommended 50# you would only need 10# of their product. Sta-Green doesn't have anything that mentions the 5x efficacy but if you look at the analysis in the bag it looks pretty similar.



I needed approx 63lb/K so I was going to put down 10#/K (10x5 = 50lb) and see where my PH was in the spring. Could be overthinking it but if it really is 5X I don't want to put down the soil test recommendation and overshoot my PH.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

mjh648 said:


> @ken-n-nancy i guess other limes can be put down in the 50#/K that these soil tests recommend but all these calcitic ones are in the 10-12#/K.
> 
> ... Sta-Green doesn't have anything that mentions the 5x efficacy but if you look at the analysis in the bag it looks pretty similar.
> 
> ...


It's not advertised as such, but in past discussions on this forum and elsewhere, we're all pretty sure that Lowes Sta-Green lime is the exact same product as name brand Solu-Cal's Enhanced Calcitic Lime, packaged for Lowes by Solu-Cal. However, Lowes can't advertise that it's the same product. Compare the label you have from the Lowes bag to the Solu-Cal label (which is online): https://www.solu-cal.com/media/pdf/product-labels/Solu-Cal_50lbsBag_2019WEB.pdf

I think your approach of making an application now at about 10#/ksqft and retesting in the spring is exactly the right approach.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

For any of the fast acting calcitic limes, go by their bag rates. However you still need 63 lb/1000 sq ft. So it will just take more applications to get there. They do react more quickly and raise pH quicker (maybe even 5 times quicker) but the effects don't last as long. An application of regular lime will still be reacting and raising pH three years from now. It may be possible to find regular calcitic lime (not fast acting) but probably not in big box stores. You could try a farm supply store or a business specializing in turfgrass if you want to make fewer applications. Dolomitic lime has both calcium and magnesium. Calcitic lime has calcium but no magnesium.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

mjh648 said:


> @Deadlawn quite literally off the charts :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> What's a good organic matter%?


Generally in the 4% to 20% range.



mjh648 said:


> From what I read about topdressing it should only really be done on a 1/4" to 1/2" layer but if you have had experience with more then that's awesome. You don't want to suffocate your grass. Don't cheap out on this and make sure you spread it the correct way. I had someone dump the material in my driveway and then wheelbarrow around and dump piles in my yard. After that they started spreading it. Went to heavy in the front and too light in the back. The areas they dumped the big piles they left heavy and other areas in the yard were light so in the heavy areas it suffocated my grass and now I'm trying to get it to grow back before my growing season ends. I would recommend if you do this to get a compost spreader that you load up and walk through your yard or the rolling one so it can spread evenly so you don't run into the issues I had.
> 
> here's a video on the 2 compost spreaders I have see be effective


Dammit, I'm getting one of those manual compost spreaders!! I have to admit I've been doing it the hard way which is wheelbarrows full of compost, a garden fork and a rake.

As far as amount, the layer I used was probably less than an inch. I didn't measure it, an inch was just my guestimation. I doubt an inch would suffocate the lawn as long as the blades are long enough to stick up and receive nutrients from the sun. And of course as soon as you water it, it will pack down a bit. All I know is that the areas of established grass where I topdressed jumped out of the ground!


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I would not worry too much about the organic matter level. North Dakota advises the ideal is 2-4% and not to exceed 5%:
https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/publications/lawns-gardens-trees/interpreting-the-ndsu-soil-test-analysis-for-managing-turfgrass

You will get organic matter from growing grass. Those roots grow and die and grow again in a normal growing cycle and provide organic matter. Clippings from cutting grass provide organic matter. If you mulch mow your leaves and leave them on the lawn, they provide organic matter.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

Guau I wasn't expecting so many comments, a lot to read; thanks to everyone, I recently did an over seeding and I was planning to apply lime at the end of October maybe 40lbs/k would that be ok to start? I'm going to check at Lowe's for the recommended brand is any other option or brands?thanks


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say that I am puzzled that you have optimal calcium, but such low pH.
> ...


Can I add 30 or 40 lbs Of sta green Lime at the end of October Or is to much ?On the test shit say recommend 2or more applications up to 40 or 50. I found is on clearance for 8$ for 30lbs bag,thanks


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

So here's the thing about fast acting lime. Yes, it will raise your pH quickly, but will drop back down not long after that. It doesn't matter what type of lime you use, fast acting or regular lime, it's going to take the same amount of pounds on the ground to have the long lasting effects you're looking for it to have. Cost wise, it's exponentially more expensive to use a fast acting lime for the total correction. Bags are marketing, remember that.

So, ultimately what you can do is use a fast acting lime on the initial application to bump your pH quickly and then follow that up with regular limestone applications after that. Thankfully you're going to need calicitic lime, which is faster acting than dolimitic.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@OnTheLawn why is calcitic faster acting than dolomatic?


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

@g-man I'll need to find the video again, but I believe it was Matt Martin who discusses it. Calicitic lime contains more calcium carbonate per pound and since it doesn't have the magnesium carbonate component, it dissolves faster. How much faster? That I'm not sure, could be marginal. Now I'm second guessing it a bit, so I'll look for the video and others I watched. When I was looking into my pH adjustment options I remember it being a sticking point because I needed magnesium as well, so a dolimitic lime, which worked into the soil slower due to lower calcium carbonate levels and magnesium carbonate just taking longer to break down. I think. Gotta find the vid!


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Wait I may have lied. It's not the carbonate amount, but something about how it's formulated? Gosh I can't remember exactly now and it's killing me, but I remember reading here about it to. I think it was @Ridgerunner mentioned something about it? How dolimitic lime takes a bit longer to remove the same amount of hydrogen from the soil as calicitic lime? It's something to do with the carbonate.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Dolomitic lime contains a greater amount of carbonate than does calcitic lime pound for pound. Calcitic lime is faster reacting because it's easier (a faster reaction) to break the Ca and carbonate bond than it is to break the Ca/Mg and carbonate bond that allows carbonate to interact with the acidity.
CaCO3 vs CaMg(CO3)2


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Now, back to Mardel's question. No, do not use 30 lb/1000 sq ft. As several of us have have stated, follow the bag directions. Sta Green is fine to use. It sounds like you found a good deal on it. Put down an application this fall, another in the spring, and keep going (fall and spring) until you have met the soil test recommendation. Onthelawn does have a good idea: a fast acting calcitic lime this fall with the balance in the spring of a regular calcitic lime. But it may be hard to find regular calcitic lime. The only place I found it in my area was a business that sells products to golf courses. If you're happy with the Sta Green price, which sounds good to me, buy as much as you need and have space to store.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

Virginiagal Thanks for the clarification I was confuse about the quantities


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

So here's another way to think of it: frequency curve.

The goal is to basically get the line to rise from 5.3 to the optimal range. The two options for doing so are using fast-acting lime, or regular lime. The fast-acting lime will move the line quicker to optimal, but it will also eventually go back down because it's using calcium carbonate EQUIVALENTS. They break down faster, but also don't have as much of a long term effect. So, the frequency curve will have peaks and valleys on your way to optimal range and it will take longer to get there. Again, you'll have a more immediate impact though.

The regular lime will be more of a straight line to optimal range, so it won't have those peaks at optimal range that the fast-acting lime has, but it also won't have the immediate impact.

Now, here's the cost and time analysis. The Sta-Green fast acting lime can be applied up to three times per year. The first application is 12 lbs/1000, followed by subsequent applications of 6 lbs/1000 to maintain the pH. We need a total of 75lbs/1000 based on the soil test, so that will take a total of three bags per 1000 for your lawn. Total cost will break down to $38.94 /1000, so if your 8000 sq ft lawn size on your profile is accurate, that's $311.52. Not terrible, but we're only able to apply three times per year. So, if you put down 12lbs/1000 now, starting in spring you'll only be able to get down 18lbs/1000 per year until you hit that 75lbs/1000 total. So, 12 lbs now means start of 2021 leaves you with 63 lbs/1000, which will take 3 1/2 years to complete.

Now, if you go the route of regular lime, you're looking at using two 40-lb bags/1000. This will be a total of about $12 /1000, so about $96 total for your lawn. You can apply half now and then the remainder next fall for the "ideal" application times and be done with it in a year.

So, roughly $312 over 3 1/2 years VS $96 over 1 year. Someone should double check me on this math and everything though as I am quite fallible.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Ok, it's 75 lb/1000 sq ft (where did 63 come from?). 75x8=600 lb of lime needed altogether for 8000 sq ft. That's 20 bags at 30 lb or 15 bags at 40 lb. He can get the 30 lb Sta Green at $8/bag, so 20x$8=$160. 15 of the 40 lb bags Onthelawn references at $6/bag is $90. The question, though, is where he can get those 40 lb bags at $6/bag. And whether it's worth the drive and time to get them. If the limit on Sta Green applications is 12 lb/1000 sq ft, he can put down 12 lb/1000 sq ft each time. He will be in remediation, not maintenance.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

This is worth checking out. Described as high calcium lime, $4.28 for 40 lb. bag at Home Depot:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Signature-40-lb-High-Calcium-Pelletized-Limestone-4098/304881486
It may be a fast acting lime as it's described as lasting 26 weeks. But it's less cost than the Sta Green.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> Ok, it's 75 lb/1000 sq ft (where did 63 come from?). 75x8=600 lb of lime needed altogether for 8000 sq ft. That's 20 bags at 30 lb or 15 bags at 40 lb. He can get the 30 lb Sta Green at $8/bag, so 20x$8=$160. 15 of the 40 lb bags Onthelawn references at $6/bag is $90. The question, though, is where he can get those 40 lb bags at $6/bag. And whether it's worth the drive and time to get them. If the limit on Sta Green applications is 12 lb/1000 sq ft, he can put down 12 lb/1000 sq ft each time. He will be in remediation, not maintenance.


It would be 63lbs remaining after the initial application of 12lbs. I guess pricing varies widely by location, as my Lowe's has the Sta-Green bags at $13 per and it's a 25-lb bag! They also have calicitic lime (not fast acting) for $6 per.

But ultimately I guess it depends on what's available. Still, the overarching point is that doing a fast-acting lime for the entire fix is more expensive and takes longer. The main benefit is that you'll get a rapid response, but that's the price for it. Even if you do the max 12lb/1000 rate, it's still almost two years of applications. 12lbs now, then three in 2021, which leaves another 27 lbs to apply in 2022, so last app being a 3lb/1000 app in fall of that year.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

I saw this at home d,price is 5 something What do you think can that be a better option?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

+1


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Looks good. Seems to be saying something about 20-40 lb/1000 sq ft. If that's the spreading recommendation, you will be able to make fewer applications.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's normal non fast calcitic lime. You likely can do 50lb/ksqft of it at once.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

g-man said:


> That's normal non fast calcitic lime. You likely can do 50lb/ksqft of it at once.


That sounds great;how long after germination on my over seeding you recommend me to put it?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

8 weeks


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

As per the usual g-man is right. I read the label in the picture and thought it said 20-40lbs, but that was just for subsequent apps and maintenance. Always double and triple check the labels!


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

Nice work guys. I jumped the gun on the Sta-Green but this is a good reference for the future.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

I've been trying to avoid turning this thread into a fast-acting lime vs. slow-acting lime pro/con, but since we kind of ended up going there, there are a couple things I wanted to mention while we were on the topic...

First off, I think that @OnTheLawn is right that traditional lime (which I suppose one could call slow-acting) will end up being less expensive, in the long run, than using the fast-acting limes which have additives which help solubilize the calcium like SoluCal (Lowes Sta-Green).

Before talking about some other advantages of fast-acting limes which help solubilize the calcium, a bit of background is in order. There are two different primary approaches to make "fast acting lime" in products on the market:


The first of the approaches for "fast acting lime" is to grind the limestone particles as finely as possible, to increase their surface area so the calcium becomes available in the soil solution more quickly. This is traditional "fast-acting lime." The lime can either consist of very fine particles (practically a dust, as in the lime that one uses to mark lines on a sports field) or the very fine particles can be re-pelletized using a dissolvable binder which allows the pellets to be spread in a broadcast spreader. (Lime that is pulverized into dust won't spread properly in a broadcast spreader, although a drop spreader will do fine.)
The second approach for "fast acting lime" is to use additives which act as chelating agents to keep the desired nutrients (calcium, in this case) from getting bound up in the soil and instead be available for plant uptake. This is a distinct approach from the "fine particles" approach described above. Adding to the confusion, though, as far as I know all "fast-acting lime" products which make use of chelating agents (e.g. SoluCal, Mag-I-Cal, or Encap (now "Earth Science")/Pennington) also make use of pelletization of finely-ground particles, too.

So, on to some of the advantages of the fast-acting limes which haven't yet been mentioned in this thread...

One of the advantages of the limes which use the chelating approach is that the response is seen more quickly -- on the order of months rather than years. This means that if one's soil is deficient in calcium, a fast-acting lime will make the calcium available to the plant at the appropriate level in months, rather than years. If somebody has done a soil test and wants to correct a low pH problem, the fast-acting limes fix the problem sooner.

Another advantage is that the fast-acting limes reduce the risk of long-term overshoot. Soil tests have a significant amount of variation from test to test. Much of this variation for things like calcium have to do with which particles from the soil end up in the sample which is actually tested. Soil isn't homogeneous like chocolate pudding, but is made up of an aggregate of all kinds of particles. Depending upon which particles end up in the test tube, the test results can have significant variation. If the sample happens to have a random abundance of limestone in it (maybe some small chunks), the test results will be higher than normal. If the sample happens to have dodged limestone chunks that are present in the soil in the lawn, but just not in the sample, then the test value will be lower than normal.

Since there is a fair bit of normal variation in the test values, let's consider the case where a soil test is a natural "outlier" indicating low calcium, which is then remedied by making a single large application of traditional lime to make up for the entire shortfall. The immediate effect upon the plants is not a problem due to the slow-acting nature of the traditional lime but the overshoot will happen and there isn't much one can do about it once the large application as been made. Even if one is to retest the next year and identify that overshoot has taken place, the slow-acting nature of the traditional lime means that the overshoot is going to persist for a couple years until natural leaching of the calcium from the soil takes place. (I'm assuming one is in such an environment, or one wouldn't have needed to apply lime in the first place.) If, however, that shortfall from the "outlier" indicating low calcium is remedied by application of fast-acting lime, then there will be a near-term overshoot (due to applying the amount of lime recommended by the "low outlier" test), but by the time of a retest the next year, there is no longer a significant remaining "pending overshoot" that will persist for years.

In any case, I believe the above two items (quicker response and less risk of long-term overshoot from an outlier test) are advantages of the fast-acting lime that may make the added cost worth it. Then again, maybe I've just bought into some of the marketing hype of companies like Solu-Cal and Encap in promoting their products.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Regular lime has fine particles which react quickly as well as larger particles that react more slowly. In this case, though we can't see the whole label, I'm guessing that the 80% refers to the part passing the 200 sieve. It will not take years for pH to rise. Maybe it won't be as quick as with the fast acting lime, but it will work and is perfectly fine to use.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@OnTheLawn I want to clarify. Although dolomitic is slower to activate than calcitic, like many things it depends on present factors. For instance 60 mesh dolo is 11% less effective than 60 mesh calcitic an d the difference increases as the grind gets coarser, but 100 mesh dolo is only 1% less effective than 100 mesh calcitic. So yes, but it depends.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

One way to compare lime products is to use the ENV number on the labels. ENV is a calculation for the 1 year effectiveness of a lime product based on it's "fineness" (grind/mesh) and its CCE (quality/content of carbonate).
See ENV on the labels:
Solu-Cal
https://www.solu-cal.com/media/pdf/product-labels/Solu-Cal_50lbsBag_2019WEB.pdf
Espoma
https://www.domyown.com/msds/ESPOMALIGHTNINGLIMEFACTSHEET.pdf
with the SoilDoctor label above.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

The stuff I have bookmarked. Enjoy:
https://aglime.cahnrs.wsu.edu/Tools/Calculator/


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Poor Mardel has heard more than he ever wanted to about lime. I hope he bought his lime. I propose moving this discussion about relative merits of various limes to a new thread. I'll create one.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

:lol: lol I never thought my soil test is going to turn into a 3 pages (40 replies)thread, I have to wait to put my lime because my over seeding,but thank you all I learn a lot.


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## Mardel74 (Aug 16, 2020)

That is the full label at the one at home depot


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