# Renovating a lawn with Poa Trivialis



## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

I can't take it any longer. My frankenlawn is showing about 20% Poa T spread throuought. I bought a shade mix a couple of years ago that had poa t in it and I'm guessing that's where it showed up. My wife just gave me the green light for a Reno I just want to be sure I'm taking the proper steps with the Poa t for a total kill.

I would also like grass recommendations too. If you guys recommend a supplier or blend for west Michigan I'm all ears.

Big Thanks


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think you could be late for handling poa t plus a reno for Michigan. Glyphosate will need to go down asap.


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

I thought you were going to renovate with Poa T. Title of the post got meh. Oye.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

GoPre said:


> I thought you were going to renovate with Poa T. Title of the post got meh. Oye.


Ha! I ready it the same way!

I think you're pushing it on the reno timeline too. If you step back from your average first frost date, subtract a number of weeks for the seedlings to harden off for the winter, then number of days for germination, a few days for seedbed prep, and a few weeks for 2-3 rounds of glypho... I bet you end up with a date that's already passed.

You could roll the dice and know that in the spring you may have lost some of your new grass.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

OR is it possible to get everything prepped to lay seed and straw just before winter hits for a Spring germination? Just asking. I did that in Cincinnati with KBG when I did a late July move in. Had to bring in a bunch of dirt and prep about 1/2 acre. Tossed seed and straw the weekend before Thanksgiving and ended up with a beautiful lawn the following year.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That is risky. A march/april freeze after germination and the lawn is gone.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Agree with the others. I had seed down August 15th last year. You'd have to get possibly multiple glyphosate apps down. It could take a couple weeks to get a proper seed bed ready. I would seriously consider planning for next fall instead.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

Thanks for the input guys. Any recommendations on seed?


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I think it was someone at the AG center at OSU who recommended the process to me.

It's been more than 30 years but I don't remember it germinating or at least showing above the straw until after the "average annual last freeze" date. Again, 1987 was a LOT of years ago!

Not trying to argue but many articles say this is the second best option if you can't get things done in the Fall. Google "dormant seeding new lawn" or "winter seeding new lawn".

https://www.whygoodnature.com/dormant-seeding
http://turf.umn.edu/news/consider-dormant-seeding-your-lawn-fall



g-man said:


> That is risky. A march/april freeze after germination and the lawn is gone.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I fully agree it is doable, but it is very weather dependent, therefore the warning of the risks. A fall reno has risk too, like a washout from a heavy rain.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

I think I have figured out the solution to the triv kill and that is wait until spring when it is actively growing and then hit it multiple times with round up. Plan for August seed down.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

How did this go?

Here my what my yard looks like 😔


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

In another thread, someone told me it was triv. I'm thinking just round up and sod it.

I've never sodded or done a full seed Reno before.

If I'm willing to pay the 5k for the sod, are there any downsides of sod vs seeding?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Bkell101 how much shade you have in that area? Poa t loves shade areas and it might be ok for your area.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

@Bkell101 I am going to apply first app of round up next week.



Found several patches next to spots I nuked last fall. These look like mature plants. Found some just starting to shoot stolons as well.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

g-man said:


> @Bkell101 how much shade you have in that area? Poa t loves shade areas and it might be ok for your area.
> [/qu@Bkell101
> 
> The front yard is split by a walk way. On one side are two big old oak trees to the east end of the lawn and the house to the south and it's pretty shaded. The other side of the walkway gets more sun. In the pic I posted from the second level the oaks are all the way on the right (out of sight) and the left side of the walk has that time green too 😔


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

@Gman107 
The front yard is split by a walk way. On one side are two big old oak trees to the east end of the lawn and the house to the south and it's pretty shaded. The other side of the walkway gets more sun. In the pic I posted from the second level the oaks are all the way on the right (out of sight) and the left side of the walk has that time green too 😔


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

This is the left side of the walk way where the oaks are


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Bkell101 said:


> In another thread, someone told me it was triv. I'm thinking just round up and sod it.
> 
> I've never sodded or done a full seed Reno before.
> 
> If I'm willing to pay the 5k for the sod, are there any downsides of sod vs seeding?


No real difference other than cost. Some like to choose specific cultivars which you can't do with sod. If it's in the budget, then sod is fine and I'd make sure the guy you hire cuts out all of the existing turf. No guarantees the Triv doesn't come back so you need to watch it carefully and spray roundup on anything that comes up, preferably in the Spring(s). If you go sod route, you probably want to get it done very soon before the heat hits. Other alternative is to have your guy cut out existing turf in the Fall and sod then. Other advantage to waiting til Fall would be you could start nuking the existing turf with roundup in August and then cut everything out. Sod would definitely be easier to establish in the Fall too. Would be good to hear if someone on the board has sodded over Triv and what were results.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Bkell101 said:
> 
> 
> > In another thread, someone told me it was triv. I'm thinking just round up and sod it.
> ...


THanks so much for the reply.

I'd be super interested in sod experiences after triv, if anyone has any tips/pointers.

@tgreen, it's pretty painful thinking about paying so much money for sod and triv coming back. I'd love to try my hand at a seed reno, but that would mean kill now and have front yard a wasteland until October. Also, I have poa a, so if I seed and can't do pre M, then I'm going to be dealing with tons of poa a right?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Don't worry about the Poa Annua. That is a very small issue. The triv is what's causing those dead spots in your lawn in the summer. I don't have any guarantees or assurances but will tell you what I would do in your situation.

You have a nice yard that is a very manageable size. I would start spraying roundup on it starting in early to mid-August. I would plan for three round up applications at an interval of 7 to 10 days. Water in between the roundup applications so you can germinate any weed seed that might be in the soil. Then, take a look at some of the lawn renovation videos on youtube for a step-by-step reno process. 'Ryan Knorr' has some good reno videos that are well edited. If you still need help on the renovation process after doing the research then let me know.

After you do your renovation, it is very likely the triv will reappear. For me, that came in the fall of the year following the renovation. However, the poa T that comes back will be far less than what you now have. At that point, you can try hand pulling it or spot spraying with round up.

That is what I would do if I were in your shoes. It's not a perfect plan but when dealing with Poa T there are no easy answers. If you go this route, take a look at this vid I made on doing a soil test and starting to think about what turf species and cultivars you might use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOvtkIDXyvk&t=4s


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Don't worry about the Poa Annua. That is a very small issue. The triv is what's causing those dead spots in your lawn in the summer. I don't have any guarantees or assurances but will tell you what I would do in your situation.
> 
> You have a nice yard that is a very manageable size. I would start spraying roundup on it starting in early to mid-August. I would plan for three round up applications at an interval of 7 to 10 days. Water in between the roundup applications so you can germinate any weed seed that might be in the soil. Then, take a look at some of the lawn renovation videos on youtube for a step-by-step reno process. 'Ryan Knorr' has some good reno videos that are well edited. If you still need help on the renovation process after doing the research then let me know.
> 
> ...


You have been great. Thank you!

I like your idea of just go for the reno with seed since it's so much Cheaper and if it fails that's ok. It'll be less triv than now.

Heck, I could reno it all again and kill more triv then maybe pay for sod in a few years if I'm still unhappy. I'll see what my wife thinks 👍


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## hammerhead (May 14, 2019)

Hi @tgreen ,
Have seen your Videos on Poa Trivialis on YouTube. Great content. 
A question to you regarding selective herbicide use on Poa Trivialis: Have you ever tried/considered fenoxaprop-p-ethyl? Triv listed as a controlled weed, see here:
https://www.backedbybayer.com/-/media/prfunitedstates/documents/resource-library/product-labels/acclaim-extra-herbicide.ashx
However, I am not sure on its efficacy. There isn't a ton of information on the web, and the info i found is rather mixed with good/bad results.
Maybe anyone else has tried fenoxaprop-p-ethyl?


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

hammerhead said:


> Hi @tgreen ,
> Have seen your Videos on Poa Trivialis on YouTube. Great content.
> A question to you regarding selective herbicide use on Poa Trivialis: Have you ever tried/considered fenoxaprop-p-ethyl? Triv listed as a controlled weed, see here:
> https://www.backedbybayer.com/-/media/prfunitedstates/documents/resource-library/product-labels/acclaim-extra-herbicide.ashx
> ...


More info on Acclaim here:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9032&p=149612&hilit=acclaim#p149576


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

MassHole said:


> hammerhead said:
> 
> 
> > Hi @tgreen ,
> ...


Great info guys. I was not aware this chemical was labeled for PT and don't have any experience with it. I'll follow the thread you show and hopefully the person trying it will let us know. Thanks


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

MassHole said:


> hammerhead said:
> 
> 
> > Hi @tgreen ,
> ...


Man why have i never heard of this stuff for Poa Triv? Seems its been around for a long time, i wonder why there are so many places that say there is no selective control for it?

A quick google found this from the late 80's
https://www.jstor.org/stable/3987069?read-now=1&seq=5#page_scan_tab_contents

If you dont want to sign up to read the whole thing here is the abstract.


> Control of Roughstalk Bluegrass (Poa trivialis) with Fenoxaprop in Perennial Ryegrass (Lolium perenne) Grown for Seed: Fenoxaprop applied between late winter and mid-spring selectively controlled roughstalk bluegrass in perennial ryegrass grown for seed in Oregon. Fenoxaprop applied after the arrival of warmer weather in late March had enhanced effectiveness against roughstalk bluegrass compared to earlier application. However, additional delay into April increased damage to perennial ryegrass. Optimum application date coincided with a 15- to 18-cm perennial ryegrass canopy height. Mixed stands of seedling and established roughstalk bluegrass were more consistently controlled by 0.28 kg ai/ha fenoxaprop than by lower rates.


This article seems to claim that it works great on killing Triv in Rye/TTTF, with some damage to KBG/Fine fescues...
Also the article implies damage to seedlings, not established grass, so not sure if it would damage established KBG.

$85 for a pint from DoMyOwn is seriously making me consider trying it, after all the money and time i've spent wasted renoing my yard repeatedly only to have it come back in some form.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Would Acclaim be considered a better choice of control over glypho for poa T potentially?


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Would Acclaim be considered a better choice of control over glypho for poa T potentially?


Maybe? The problem I have is you need to spray Glypho really in early/Mid spring it seems when its actively growing, which means my yard would have to be dead for 4-6 months before i could reseed in Fall. Since it dies off in summer you cant really spray for it then.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Would Acclaim be considered a better choice of control over glypho for poa T potentially?
> ...


I think that's the most difficult thing for me to swallow


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> MassHole said:
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> 
> > hammerhead said:
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Late 80's you say? Hmmmm. Guess they've been hiding it for 30 years. I'm a little skeptical.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Bkell101 said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> > Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> ...


X2! I just can't bring myself to do it right now. Having dead patches of grass for the entire summer is too much to shrug off for me. I'd rather nuke it as best as I can in the late summer and even dig it out than spray right now and I've bare patches.

If Acclaim is the real deal? Hallelujah!! I and many others would be having a party! It's almost like finding a cure for hair loss for us lawn freaks!


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

Bkell101 said:


> ... it's pretty painful thinking about paying so much money for sod and triv coming back. I'd love to try my hand at a seed reno, but that would mean kill now and have front yard a wasteland until October. Also, I have poa a, so if I seed and can't do pre M, then I'm going to be dealing with tons of poa a right?


I did a full renovation on parts of a yard consisting of TTTF, KBG and PRG because they were infested with Poa annua and P. trivialis. I sprayed Glyphosate, removed the top 1-2" of soil and dead grass, sieved 8-10" of the soil below to filter out rubble and pebbles and replaced the missing 2-4" by soil delivered as a turf-bearing layer. I seeded TTTF/KBG 80/20 in fall 2017.

I found a lot of Poa annua in 2018, which I tried to pull out before it can spread its seeds. But I could find only 1 or 2 Poa trivials plants. From March 2019 I pulled out many Poa trivialis and only few Poa annua plants. I think I missed these plants before. These grew as single plants and not in groups, were fewer but there was almost no sqft without them. Difficult to recognize.

It may be possible that the delivered soil was contaminated, but grass seeds are able to germinate through a larger layer of soil than I expected. I buried some seeds under a different thickness of soil and found that some seedlings managed to see light from at least 2.4" below the surface. So I think unwanted grasses can germinate though a new layer of sod.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

tgreen said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
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> 
> > MassHole said:
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Yea im skeptical as well, it seems to stunt it but not kill it outright.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

So is anyone trying Acclaim? I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test (which is $$$) so I'm looking for someone else to try Acclaim.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Re acclaim, found this quote from a test in 1999

While Acclaim Extra at 20.0, 28.0, and 39.0 fl oz/A caused phytotoxicity to Poatrivialis and caused some thinning of the turf, recovery occurred fairly rapidlyand it appears Acclaim Extra is not an effective means of Poa trivialis control.Prograss applied at 6.0 and 9.0 lbs ai/A caused severe thinning of Poa trivialisbut complete control was not achieved and recovery of Poa trivialis wasobserved toward the end of the experiment. This causes doubt as to whetherPrograss will provide acceptable Poa trivialis control.

From this link

https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2000/2000%20page%2058.pdf


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

So I just posted a thread on preEM vs overseed and forgot that many told me I have triv rather than poa A.

I have the same dead brown spots this summer.

Can I dig them out and put down soil then go the overseed route?

just not sure I have the marbles for a full reno from scratch.

recently dug a meteor sized hole in the middle of my yard because of a sinking hole where an old stump used to be and my wife was just furious and shaking her head at me. I can't imagine what she'd do if she came home and the whole yard was brown and dying and I told her I was going to grow grass from scratch without an irrigation system.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

2L8 said:


> Bkell101 said:
> 
> 
> > ... it's pretty painful thinking about paying so much money for sod and triv coming back. I'd love to try my hand at a seed reno, but that would mean kill now and have front yard a wasteland until October. Also, I have poa a, so if I seed and can't do pre M, then I'm going to be dealing with tons of poa a right?
> ...


How is your triv situation?

I just dig up about 1/4 of my yard without spraying glycoP since the triv is dormant anyways.

Think I'm making a mistake sodding over it and will just be dealing with the same issue?


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