# I put down MSM Turf.. and it rained an hour later



## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Forecast.. 0% chance of rain for three days.

Radar.. nothing anywhere around indicating rain clouds

Sky.. I saw blue.

But then Florida decided to be Florida and an hour after spraying the wind picked up as if a barrier was passing and them suddenly rain starts and I see lightning.

MSM says 24 hours without rain or sprinkler system running, which is why I rushed home from work to get it down prior to the weekend, and them this happens. It's St. Augustine, I sprayed my back yard due to a weed infestation of what the weed id thread belives to be ragweed.

What should I do? Spray again or wait a week to see if anything washes off or works?


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

I'd wait at least a week to see how well it did or didn't work. What was the temperature when you sprayed ?


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

It was in the high 70s or so, the day peaked at 82 and it was cooler than that. When the storm wall passed through it went from 79 degrees to 67 in under an hour.

I am trying to get this stuff working before Florida starts to boil again.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Msm is cheap enough, I'd wait a week or two to see if you have any wilt. Hit it again if you need to


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Normal effect of MSM is stunting of weed growth, followed by yellowing of the growing points, then wilting. This sequence of symptoms occurs over 2-3 weeks. I would not count the applications as washed off or gone. MSM watered into the soil enters weed roots and kills weeds anyway. I will spray a lawn late in the afternoon knowing that the irrigation will come on the next morning. It still works. Of course, I typically apply with an MSO surfactant. Penetration of weed leaves is enhanced above and beyond plain water.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Agreed with Greendoc. I think of MSM as a root based herbicide. I put it down with Prodiamine.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

So should I continue to wait? Right now I am going out on a every couple of days schedule hand picking as much as I can. Every day there are new weeds coming up, it's incredible growth. It's not like one or two but dozens of new plants every few days. Haven't seen an infestation like this.

I was going to spray some Image southern lawn weed killer I picked up but the consensus is I should wait for that two week mark to see if it did anything?

Adding the image again for those who are interested in what the weed looks like.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I'd hit it with three way in addition to the MSM anyway


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Growing points on those weeds are yellowed. BTW that looks like wild Tomatoes.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

1. What's Three Way?

2. What do you mean yellowed? Maybe those are but the new ones are coming up literally nightly with no stopping them in sight. It's first thing in the morning now so I will go out to the lawn and fully expect a dozen more to have popped up since a day ago.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Here is this mornings boquet for everyone.. picked on the same path as the MSM spray and also in the mulch which was nuked with way too much Round Up and also a blast of the MSM.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Skenny said:


> 1. What's Three Way?
> 
> 2. What do you mean yellowed? Maybe those are but the new ones are coming up literally nightly with no stopping them in sight. It's first thing in the morning now so I will go out to the lawn and fully expect a dozen more to have popped up since a day ago.


3 way is 2,4D, Dicamba and something else. Fertilome and Speedzone are two popular brands. It's cheap and super effective on broadleaf weeds.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Can I get it at a big box or is it something I need to make the trip to my local garden store for?

Is it temp sensitive?


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

This mornings weed pickings.. same area as yesterday.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Keep up with pulling the weeds, you won't need to spray 2,4-D


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Skenny said:


> Can I get it at a big box or is it something I need to make the trip to my local garden store for?
> 
> Is it temp sensitive?


I've become a bit of a snob - don't buy anything from a big box store you can get from your local supply place. Not the least of which is that you get much higher concentrations of the active ingredient.

Fertilome and Speedzone southern are the ones I've used.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Art_Vandelay said:


> Keep up with pulling the weeds, you won't need to spray 2,4-D


I don't know if this is a joke, but it becoming a nice morning routine...

But, real question in response, hand pulling is clearing out the areas but is there something I need to do with the soil or grass in general to make it stop? Like if all this is happening is there just seeds for them all over the grass that will grow pretty much forever?


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Skenny said:


> Art_Vandelay said:
> 
> 
> > Keep up with pulling the weeds, you won't need to spray 2,4-D
> ...


There is a lot of therapy in hand pulling weeds. I have solved many issues while hand pulling weeds.

Have you put any preemerge down? Did you mix a surfactant with your msm?

If not this is what I'd do:

Mix up more msm turf, surfactant, and prodiamine and spray it again.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Art_Vandelay said:


> There is a lot of therapy in hand pulling weeds. I have solved many issues while hand pulling weeds.
> 
> Have you put any preemerge down? Did you mix a surfactant with your msm?
> 
> ...


Therapy for my weed issue or therapy for the mental illness that is going to develop because the weeds wont stop and I will feel like I am being overwhelmed with a nightmarish issue in which I wake up every single morning to a field of fresh weeds?

Here is this morning's weed pickings, for documentation purposes. Same area again as the other two:



To answer your question, yes, I put pre-e down. Feb 17 I applied this: https://www.fertilome.com/product/st-augustine-weed-feed-15-0-4-32-lbs

and back on 1/26 January I put down this: https://www.fertilome.com/product/turf-ornamental-weed-grass-stopper-35-lbs

(Good thing I keep a log to remember all of it)

This weed started sometime between all of that and now is going absolute full force on a daily basis.

I don't have any surfactant, I have never one before. As I haven't made the drive to the local weed control store I did pick this up at HD because everyone's favorite internet personality said it was a good option for something quick and easy to buy: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IMAGE-32-oz-Southern-Lawn-Weed-Killer-Concentrate-100530416/303594320

Was going to put it down this weekend but should i skip that and go straight to the MSM again tomorrow night? No rain foretasted but we know how well that worked last time.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

That Image should do the trick to you weeds. Next time spraying MSM, it needs a non ionic surfactant mixed with it to have good results


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

I wish these weeds were some kind of herb or something edible. Imagine if I had oregano or something like that just everywhere every day. Would be amazing for sauce. Instead I have this pesky thing that just won't go away.

So the Image, I will spray tomorrow afternoon. As for the surfactant, I will ask next time I go. It's something you mix it so it works better? What needs a surfactant and what doesn't?


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Skenny said:


> I wish these weeds were some kind of herb or something edible. Imagine if I had oregano or something like that just everywhere every day. Would be amazing for sauce. Instead I have this pesky thing that just won't go away.
> 
> So the Image, I will spray tomorrow afternoon. As for the surfactant, I will ask next time I go. It's something you mix it so it works better? What needs a surfactant and what doesn't?


The label on the herbicide will tell you whether it needs it or not and how much.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

With the two products that I did put down, linked in my response, are those okay? Could timing have screwed something up or can weeds always find their way through any product?


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Today's update:



Also I have found their nest. Inside of a wild grass plant I found a complete hive of weed activity:





Completely infested with them. I will try spraying and picking but if the grass is taken out as collateral damage then so be it. The Image spray is going on either tonight or first thing tomorrow morning. The battle continues...


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Not sure what you're waiting on...spray it


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Over the top grass killer. Give it a try. Or 2,4D. The palm should survive.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> Over the top grass killer. Give it a try. Or 2,4D. The palm should survive.


Why would he spray over the top? He's trying to kill broadleaf weeds


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Been a long week at work and haven't had the time to come home and spray in the evening.

All that gets taken care of by the weekend and the Image is going down. Half gallon per 500sqft so I should use about a gallon and a half in the yard and then using all the rest on the mulch and surrounding border areas. Going to mix at the 6oz of concentrate per gallon rate.

Should I rake and throw out the mulch while at it? Or just stir it is with the dead leaves from the bushes and put the new mulch on top?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Reason why it seems like nothing is working is that I was wrong on what those seedlings are. Not tomato. Those are Brazilian Pepper trees.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Brazilian Pepper What Now?

Google does not provide an answer to that statement. Looks completely different in my search.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

You can probably kill it by mowing it in the lawn. Nonetheless, it is not a normal weed, those are some kind of tree seedlings. MSM will help. So will Image but those herbicides take time on woody vegetaton.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Looks like common ragweed to me. The Brazilian pepper tree looks quite different


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If it is ragweed that can explain the lack of response to MSM. Herbicide resistant ragweed is a thing. Known issues are resistance to Glyphosate and SU herbicides. I am starting to wonder how that weed is still germinating even though an application of MSM was made.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

The MSM application was rained on within an hour, so that could explain it.

Image is going down tonight. Will report back on a regular basis as I have been. My morning weed picking walks look to continue for quite some time.

Could I have screwed up the pre-e and weed and feed? Nothing is stopping this thing which is now turning into an amusing morning routine to see how much it laughs at everything I am throwing at it.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Image application has been complete. 6~7oz per gallon of water. I may have oversprayed in the back as I ended up using all two gallons on about 1500sqft, but hopefully things will work out. Nuked the mulch, nuked the plant from the picture above.

So now we just sit back and wait?


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

How many square feet are you putting out 7 Oz of Imazequin on?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If I am reading it right that was 14 oz of the Image for Nutsedge over 1500 sq ft.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

What's Imazequin? Also I didn't use Image Nutsedege Killer, I used the Image Southern Lawn Weed Killer Concentrate linked a page ago: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IMAGE-32-oz-Southern-Lawn-Weed-Killer-Concentrate-100530416/303594320

I used 7oz per gallon in a gallon and a half across 1500sqft. Then nuked the mulch and that nest I found with even more. Hopefully something will happen, and that something not being my whole lawn dying.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Skenny said:


> What's Imazequin? Also I didn't use Image Nutsedege Killer, I used the Image Southern Lawn Weed Killer Concentrate linked a page ago: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IMAGE-32-oz-Southern-Lawn-Weed-Killer-Concentrate-100530416/303594320
> 
> I used 7oz per gallon in a gallon and a half across 1500sqft. Then nuked the mulch and that nest I found with even more. Hopefully something will happen, and that something not being my whole lawn dying.


You might excuse @s@SCGrassMan I don't think he read your post at all.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Art_Vandelay said:


> Skenny said:
> 
> 
> > What's Imazequin? Also I didn't use Image Nutsedege Killer, I used the Image Southern Lawn Weed Killer Concentrate linked a page ago: https://www.homedepot.com/p/IMAGE-32-oz-Southern-Lawn-Weed-Killer-Concentrate-100530416/303594320
> ...


I did. Imazequin used to be what's in image before they changed the formulation. And it wasn't until after I asked that he posted where he got it from. There's a big difference between 7 Oz/M of Image from HD versus from a pesticide supply house.

And from earlier, the 2,4D was for the broadleaves, the over the top was for some of the other crap in there.

Not sure why you're trying to pick a fight.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> Art_Vandelay said:
> 
> 
> > Skenny said:
> ...


I'm not picking a fight at all. Just pointing out that you said he used something totally different than what he said he did which led to confusion. And he did link the product from Home Depot before he used it.

Edit to add: I haven't seen any grassy weeds he's trying to control


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Definitely missed that on the first page. I don't usually click on all the links when reading. I just saw Image.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> Definitely missed that on the first page. I don't usually click on all the links when reading. I just saw Image.


No hard feelings on my end. Just wanted to point out when giving advice or comments, not having all the information and giving advice based off that can be detrimental- especially in this business


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

When manufacturers use the same brand name for products with different AI that can cause confusion if not outright tragedy. Which is why I like to avoid referring to products via their brand names.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> When manufacturers use the same brand name for products with different AI that can cause confusion if not outright tragedy. Which is why I like to avoid referring to products via their brand names.


Same that's why I was thinking Imazequin. And 7 Oz of Imazequin on 1000 sq ft would certainly kill any and all weeds lol.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Now that everyone is friends again, what should I now expect? Wait 2 weeks and see how it impacts the morning weed bouquet walks? Things should hopefully begin slowing down out there?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If it is the Image Southern Weed Killer you applied, that should show effects within a week or two.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Skenny said:


> Now that everyone is friends again, what should I now expect? Wait 2 weeks and see how it impacts the morning weed bouquet walks? Things should hopefully begin slowing down out there?


Yes and yes - 2,4D and MSM work great on broadleaf weeds.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

That Image Southern Lawn weed killer is Penoxulam, 2.4-D. Sulfentrazone, and Dicamba. Avenue South.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Does this help with suppressing new weeds or is it only going to get what is already there? I have no idea where they are coming from so say the lot now in the grass is killed will new ones just float in from weed land and start growing again in three weeks?


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Skenny said:


> Does this help with suppressing new weeds or is it only going to get what is already there? I have no idea where they are coming from so say the lot now in the grass is killed will new ones just float in from weed land and start growing again in three weeks?


I don't know if your pre-em would prevent ragweed(or whatever it is) or if any pre-em would. Some googling might be in order to figure that one out. It may be something you will have to spray for periodically until you get them wiped out. You'll have to plan your strategy when that time comes.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

You need a separate pre m.

Look into:

Indaziflam (specticle)
Isoxaben (Snapshot)
Prodiamine (Barricade)
Diopthyr (Dimension)

More or less in order of desirability. And probably most expensive to least expensive


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Looks like most preemergent will cover it, Prodiamine being the most common. It won't fix what you have going on right now but getting it out sooner rather than later would be a good idea


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

What kind of pre e is the stuff I put down considered?

https://www.fertilome.com/product/st-augustine-weed-feed-15-0-4-32-lbs

For the different ones linked above by SC man, do any come in granular form? I am not an expert enough yet for liquid pre-e sprays. Which of those would be most forgiving if I overapply because I screw something up?

And finally, is it too late for pre emergent given that growing season in Florida is pretty much in full swing now?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

@Skenny there are some granular Prodiamine and Dithiopyr pre-e products available.

Better late than never on the pre-e. You might consider Dithiopyr because it also offers some post-e control.


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## cfinden (Aug 7, 2018)

The weed and feed you put down looks like a post emergent with some pre-e control the active ingredient is Atrazine.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

You can generally get Prodiamine and Diopthyr in granular form mixed with fertilizer.


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Oops, posted the wrong link. Thats what I get for trying to do this on my phone. This is the "pre e" I put down in January:

https://www.fertilome.com/product/turf-ornamental-weed-grass-stopper-35-lbs

Is that okay?


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Reporting in a few days later.. the overwhelming growth in the lawn itself has started to subside. I am not waking up every morning and picking dozens of new weeds. What's out in the mulch continues to be there, watching the situation to see if things go one way or another.

It's march so this weekend another pre-e app is going down, as of now it will be the same thing I put down in January but I will ask to see if they have anything with Prodiamine in it instead but not sure if the store carries any bags with that. If they do not sell it where could I get it? I only have one DIY shop around and it's getting late in the season. At least I could be armed with what to buy next year.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Skenny said:


> ...It's march so this weekend another pre-e app is going down, as of now it will be the same thing I put down in January but I will ask to see if they have anything with Prodiamine in it instead but not sure if the store carries any bags with that. If they do not sell it where could I get it? I only have one DIY shop around and it's getting late in the season. At least I could be armed with what to buy next year.


For granular Prodiamine, I would be looking for a product like this. It is cheaper if you can find it locally.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Looks like they have this in stock at your local Lowes and Home Depot. It'll work just fine


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## Skenny (Feb 4, 2019)

Covers 12,500 feet. So I could get it and then next season use it ones in January and then again in March?

Anything i need to know about a chemical mixture like that one? Like can it be applied in heat or do I need to not water or cut my grass type of deal?

I have 5,000 sqft of lawn area so I could go a little heavy on that one and split it into to applications.


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

Art_Vandelay said:


> Looks like they have this in stock at your local Lowes and Home Depot. It'll work just fine


This is what I used on my lawn in September and December and it wasn't very effective. I have poa, sedge, and wild garlic in my yard plus numerous broadleave weeds in spots where the bermuda is thin. @Greendoc has mentioned that it's not a pre-em he would use since the active ingredient is harsh on the grass and can prevent repair.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Crabbychas said:


> Art_Vandelay said:
> 
> 
> > Looks like they have this in stock at your local Lowes and Home Depot. It'll work just fine
> ...


If it's put out at the right rate and the timing is correct it works fine. As with all chemicals it needs to be applied correctly. Even when applied correctly, environmental factors can make every product not as effective. Just because you used it and say it doesn't work well doesn't make it fact. All chemicals can be harsh on grass.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

There can be a huge differential in the degree of root pruning caused by various Preemergents. It might not be noticeable in high cut and established lawn. It might not be noticeable in vigorously growing Bermuda or Zoysia due to their rhizomatous nature. I can tell you based on 25+ years of applying various herbicides to all species of warm season grasses being maintained under various heights of cut that how much of a root pruner a Preemergent herbicide does matter.

St Augustine will react to strong root pruning herbicides such as the normal rates of Pendimethalin(Halts, Pendulum), by thinning out and making stolons that are floating on top of the ground. When treating St Augustine turf, my preference in Preemergent herbicides tends towards Isoxaben, Simazine, broadcast MSM or Celsius, split app Prodiamine in that order. At a low split rate, Prodiamine is rather mild as far as root pruning effect goes. Bag rate of Pendimethalin is a rather strong Pre. Cool season grasses that are overseeded every year in the fall are not as affected. On cool season lawns that are going to be overseeded, Pendimethalin is even preferred over Prodiamine due to the long residual effect of the Prodiamine. Pendimethalin tends to end its effect sooner.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> There can be a huge differential in the degree of root pruning caused by various Preemergents. It might not be noticeable in high cut and established lawn. It might not be noticeable in vigorously growing Bermuda or Zoysia due to their rhizomatous nature. I can tell you based on 25+ years of applying various herbicides to all species of warm season grasses being maintained under various heights of cut that how much of a root pruner a Preemergent herbicide does matter.
> 
> St Augustine will react to strong root pruning herbicides such as the normal rates of Pendimethalin(Halts, Pendulum), by thinning out and making stolons that are floating on top of the ground. When treating St Augustine turf, my preference in Preemergent herbicides tends towards Isoxaben, Simazine, broadcast MSM or Celsius, split app Prodiamine in that order. At a low split rate, Prodiamine is rather mild as far as root pruning effect goes. Bag rate of Pendimethalin is a rather strong Pre. Cool season grasses that are overseeded every year in the fall are not as affected. On cool season lawns that are going to be overseeded, Pendimethalin is even preferred over Prodiamine due to the long residual effect of the Prodiamine. Pendimethalin tends to end its effect sooner.


I would like to know more about this but haven't found much in the way of studies or documentation. In fact, all the university studies I've seen so far mention Pendimethalin is fine as a pre m. Even on St Aug


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Most university research on warm season grasses is directed towards golf turf. Which is Bermuda and now to a lesser extent Seashore Paspalum. On the other hand, if you talk to an aware and alert professional in the field, they will tell you the same thing I am saying.


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## Greyleafspot (Oct 16, 2018)

Last year I miscalculated my spreader and dumped a ton of barricade on my st aug. I had clubbed roots and lost a lot of grass. It's finally filling back in this year. I didn't put any pre emergent down since last spring. Probably won't do it again


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> Most university research on warm season grasses is directed towards golf turf. Which is Bermuda and now to a lesser extent Seashore Paspalum. On the other hand, if you talk to an aware and alert professional in the field, they will tell you the same thing I am saying.


I'm just asking. It sounds like gospel but no studies. Yet it's labeled for St Aug. Thats weird. Looks like if it didn't work or caused damage the EPA wouldn't label it for that. And even more confusing is that it's sold to anyone off the street!


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Greyleafspot said:


> Last year I miscalculated my spreader and dumped a ton of barricade on my st aug. I had clubbed roots and lost a lot of grass. It's finally filling back in this year. I didn't put any pre emergent down since last spring. Probably won't do it again


Yep I don't doubt that


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In turf management I despise the word CAN. When that word is used, it suggests either a less than practical situation or else consequences resulting from an action.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> In turf management I despise the word CAN. When that word is used, it suggests either a less than practical situation or else consequences resulting from an action.


Ok. Facts are facts


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/120/3/article-p374.pdf I am looking at the total root mass in the various treatments. Low root mass weights indicate root pruning


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> https://journals.ashs.org/jashs/view/journals/jashs/120/3/article-p374.pdf I am looking at the total root mass in the various treatments. Low root mass weights indicate root pruning


Looks like it does have some effect on root biomass of immature St. Aug. Thanks for providing that. Dithiopyr Looks to be even worse on immature st aug turf.

There are definitely better options out there than Halts and Scott's products but I'm doubtful there will be any negative effects on established and maintained St Aug. Looks like his grass is thick and healthy except for a ragweed issue. That Dithiopyr that he put out certainly didn't hurt his turf


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Not yet. That university study was a one time application that did not quantify effects if applied annually. The successful sod growers stick to Atrazine and or Oxadiazon for their Pre. They do use Metolaclor when indicated. They avoid Pendimethalin and Dithiopyr.


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