# TTTF Lowest germination temperature



## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

I understand that soil temps above 60-65 F are ideal for TTTF seed germination. Is there a drop dead temp that seeds will germinate?

I seeded for the 2nd time this fall on October 2nd. Tough drought conditions, finally got rain last week. My 2nd round of TTTF seeds have still not sprouted for the most part. Soil temps are currently 55 degrees at my house. Hoping we bump that up to near 60 in the coming days with warmer weather.

I'm surprised at the lack of germination on day 18 at this point.


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## mowww (Jan 16, 2018)

Unfortunately, TTTF less than a 5-weeks post germination rarely survives a hard freeze so it might be best to wait until next year to give the seed what it needs to germinate.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

I wouldn't be opposed to the seed actually not germinating, but I have a feeling it will this week. Thankfully, the varieties of TTTF I purchased are relatively cold hardy according to NTEP trials. With any luck we might have an above normal temp situation in November here in SE PA. Usually my last mow is around Thanksgiving, though I have mowed up until Christmas (fall of 2015. Very warm).


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

dport said:


> I wouldn't be opposed to the seed actually not germinating, but I have a feeling it will this week. Thankfully, the varieties of TTTF I purchased are relatively cold hardy according to NTEP trials. With any luck we might have an above normal temp situation in November here in SE PA. Usually my last mow is around Thanksgiving, though I have mowed up until Christmas (fall of 2015. Very warm).


Seed sooner than later. What is the 'leading' point is not only soil temps at seeding but more soil temps below 50 6-8 weeks out. If watering is on point (available) the biggest challenge in hot weather may be weed pressure. While, this will spare you project, winter cold won't. NTEP results are for mature species, not for young grass...I wish you good luck.
Unfortunately I see many members seeding way too late in the season for their average weather conditions...


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Agree. I seeded for the first time on 9/2. Hardly any rain in September. So I seeded again on 10/2. The areas where I can't reach with water are the areas which are (obviously) suffering.

This has been one of the worst possible falls I can ever remember for growing grass from seed.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

dport said:


> I understand that soil temps above 60-65 F are ideal for TTTF seed germination. Is there a drop dead temp that seeds will germinate?
> 
> I seeded for the 2nd time this fall on October 2nd. Tough drought conditions, finally got rain last week. My 2nd round of TTTF seeds have still not sprouted for the most part. Soil temps are currently 55 degrees at my house. Hoping we bump that up to near 60 in the coming days with warmer weather.
> 
> I'm surprised at the lack of germination on day 18 at this point.


It will germinate. Don't give up on it. After the ground freezes, be careful with the leaf blower. Frost heaving can spit the seedlings out of the ground. Try not to blow them. They will survive.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@dport If @tgreen refers to 'over winter' germination, then it may be a good idea to throw some extra seed (if left) in weak areas just before all goes down to white. I don't believe any newly born babies will make it thru.


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## vettetrm (Apr 7, 2018)

I seed late every year. I have thrown seed all times of the year. For me, no irrigation, throw the seed on the ground type seeding works best about a week or two before the ground temperature drops below 50 degrees. The cooler temperatures and low sun angle keep the ground pretty moist and fungus is a non-issue. 
I am in the transition zone and I realize this probably wouldn't work in the north, as for freezes killing seedings, I call BS. I always have an area or two that barely get out of the ground before the ground temperature drops below 50 and they are still a 1/2"-1" in the spring and grow fine from there. Where I am and I think the guy asking is in a similar climate, it may frost in the morning some for the next month or so but the grass staying frozen all day is still a ways off. 
Whatever happens, isn't it better to throw a little seed and see what happens than deal with bare spots for a whole year waiting for fall to roll back around? 
Spring seeding is a joke in the transition zone in my opinion by the way. Here we had a great spring, stayed perfect growing conditions for grass for way longer than usual here and I grew in a spot that was dug up way late (mid November). Grew in nice mowed several times. Grew great for 3 1/2 months or so. Mid July, dead! All those spots that seeded late fall are still alive. I think even though the seedings only just got out of the ground they were growing roots for the next month or so. 
This is my experience. What I have seen in my yard. I didn't read it somewhere and take it as hard fact. Take it for what it is worth.

I think more people in the transition zone at least seed too early!


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

really appreciate the great commentary and diverse views here. I bought a new construction house in October 2018. So last fall was lost on me. In the spring, I seeded PRG (early April. Grew in looking great) and it was completely torched by early June. I mean, it was gone. AND, we had a rainy spring. My soil is more clay so that's part of the issue, but I was still surprised. Fungus no doubt got to it as well.

As far as climate, yes, I am on the norther fringe of the transition zone. I live in far SE PA, only about 10 minutes from the Delaware border. More times that not, our ground does not freeze until January (on rare occasions it doesn't freeze at all).

I'll keep you all posted regarding any germination this week. Will be a nice experiment to see if the seedlings survive into winter and next spring.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

vettetrm said:


> I think more people in the transition zone at least seed too early!


I'm in the transition zone and seed late Aug to early Sept. I have a thick lawn by Halloween. It's been mowed many times so the blades are wider and doesn't look like baby grass. I don't see how this is too early. Especially if you are growing KBG, earlier is better. I'd rather seed early than late so in spots which didn't do well, I have time to seed about 4 more times. That's a lot of time to fix bare spots. At that time, temps are warmer and TTTF germs in 4 days. After two weeks from seeding, I'm mowing. This also allows time for using selective pre-emergents and enough growth to use prodiamine post seeding.

The only reason I would suggest seeding late is if you can't irrigate. Then you seed and hope for the best.

As for baby grass surviving here, it does. 1" unmowed baby grass will still be there in the spring. Though, it only gets in the teens here and usually for a week at most. I remember 15 years ago, we used to get a few dips to negative five but not lately for sure. It's definitely getting warmer with more mild winters and hotter/longer summers.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I've planted TTTF in the low 40's and had it germinate about mid 40's. I did this in the spring so temps were climbing. It did take about 2 weeks to germ though so it wasn't fast.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I've planted TTTF in the low 40's and had it germinate about mid 40's. I did this in the spring so temps were climbing. It did take about 2 weeks to germ though so it wasn't fast.


This is good to know.

Also, I just went outside and noticed germination from some of my 2nd seeding (remember, I seeded first on Sept 2, and then again on Oct 2 due to drought conditions). Temp is 65, sunny, and ground saturated from yesterdays rain.

So, took 19 days to see any germ from from my second round.


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## Ylli (Sep 24, 2018)

I'm a bit further north, and have only been playing for a couple years. I've had my best luck so far with dormant seeding. Right now, I am waiting for the ground temperature to drop low enough so that any seed I put down will not attempt to germinate until next spring. Got 30 pounds of a TTTF/FF/KBG mix to spread in the thin areas - As long as I get it in before the first snowfall.


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## 1028mountain (Oct 1, 2019)

Ylli said:


> I'm a bit further north, and have only been playing for a couple years. I've had my best luck so far with dormant seeding. Right now, I am waiting for the ground temperature to drop low enough so that any seed I put down will not attempt to germinate until next spring. Got 30 pounds of a TTTF/FF/KBG mix to spread in the thin areas - As long as I get it in before the first snowfall.


Never thought of doing that. If you do put seed down and it doesn't germinate there is a chance it will go dormant and then germinate in the spring? At what temp does it not even attempt to germ?


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## vettetrm (Apr 7, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> vettetrm said:
> 
> 
> > I think more people in the transition zone at least seed too early!
> ...


In the following instance I am mostly talking about seeding on bare ground and not overseeding. The biggest problems I have seeding early are the crazy amount of water it takes to keep it moist, the fungus I end up with because of the constant water and high temperatures, and the thunderstorms dropping 2" of rain in 15 minutes causing terrible washouts. 
The grass that somehow survives all this looks beat up and patchy and takes so long to recover that the grass I plant 2 months later passes it up, looks fuller and gets mowed more by the time everything shuts down for the winter. The patchy grass makes reseeding difficult because it is hard to work the seed in or cover it with small, weak grass already there and having to pound it with another round of water for at least a week. 
Any suggestions for better results? Always looking for a better way. 
Methods I have tried are: seeding and covering with peat and garden weaseling the seed into the top 1/4" or so. Garden Weasel method works better for me. Doesn't wash away as bad and I seem to get less fungus issues. 
Reason I don't like to overseed early is a different reason, I have an acre and no irrigation so watering all that is too difficult.


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## Alias-Doe (Aug 9, 2019)

dport said:


> really appreciate the great commentary and diverse views here. I bought a new construction house in October 2018. So last fall was lost on me. In the spring, I seeded PRG (early April. Grew in looking great) and it was completely torched by early June. I mean, it was gone. AND, we had a rainy spring. My soil is more clay so that's part of the issue, but I was still surprised. Fungus no doubt got to it as well.
> 
> As far as climate, yes, I am on the norther fringe of the transition zone. I live in far SE PA, only about 10 minutes from the Delaware border. More times that not, our ground does not freeze until January (on rare occasions it doesn't freeze at all).
> 
> I'll keep you all posted regarding any germination this week. Will be a nice experiment to see if the seedlings survive into winter and next spring.


I'm in Delaware and planted some KBG pots a week ago and they emerged today which is surprising to me because we've had unusually cooler temps with rain the last few days so the pots didn't get much sun . If it gets too cold before they're done the sprout and pout stage I'll bring them inside. I've been using pots to fill in bare spots instead of reseeding and it's worked so well so far .


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@vettetrm Great sharing personal experience. Though, when seeding is involved there are generic rules that IMO overwrite any given personal experience for anyone that starts with the more serious lawn care. That includes soil temps look out. Considering the BS about winter kill, where I am, is a reality for mature KBG, every year, year after year. I may recall KBG is the most cold resistant grass type. At -5 to -15F for few weeks with no snow cover, and any living leafy species will call it off. Luckily snow is what God gives us in excess and we can enjoy those lawns as much as you. Seeding, here, beyond mid Sept and your chances for overwinter survival are minimal. I don't recommend dates, but normally looking at the average soil temps for the OP location 6-8 wees out and make my comment.
Cheers,
B


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

Babameca said:


> @vettetrm Great sharing personal experience. Though, when seeding is involved there are generic rules that IMO overwrite any given personal experience for anyone that starts with the more serious lawn care. That includes soil temps look out. Considering the BS about winter kill, where I am, is a reality for mature KBG, every year, year after year. I may recall KBG is the most cold resistant grass type. At -5 to -15F for few weeks with no snow cover, and any living leafy species will call it off. Luckily snow is what God gives us in excess and we can enjoy those lawns as much as you. Seeding, here, beyond mid Sept and your chances for overwinter survival are minimal. I don't recommend dates, but normally looking at the average soil temps for the OP location 6-8 wees out and make my comment.
> Cheers,
> B


According to Greencast the average soil temp in my area approaches 32 degrees F by January 5. By mid-Feb this starts to recover into the mid-upper 30s. Even around Christmas we are still in the 40-45 degree range for soil temps.

These are averages, obviously, and can be much worse from year to year (or better).

Our issue is the lack of snow to act as a blanket though.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

What about seeding TTTF right now? If soil temperature is temporarily around 68-70 degrees and air temperature is between 80-90 for the next three days, then cooling off. Will it stand a chance if seed was put down 3 days ago?


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