# PreM Applied, Need Advice on Future Steps.



## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

So I just got my PreM applied on Friday. It's early per GDD but since it appears I had a ton of crabgrass last year I would rather be early that too late. I also noticed that the clover patches that I had are starting to come in as well. I'm in need of some advice on what my next steps should be. I have heavy clay soil and aerated in the fall but there are some well traveled spots that are compacted again. Since the grass isn't actively growing upwards and I'm unsure how much root development it's doing I didn't want to aerate.

My original thoughts were to do a PreM followed by a weed & feed in may to help keep weeds at bay; however, since I had a lot of crabgrass I really want to ensure I eradicate as much as possible. So my new thoughts are what if I aerate late May as well as apply a second application of PreM w/lawn food (26-0-3)to last me through the summer? I also thought about applying an app of Milorganite in June. Does my revised plan seem like a better option?

Also, what can I do about the clover? The grass is somewhat thin in those area's and I'm afraid the clover will take over and choke out whatever grass is there. Is it too early to apply Weed-B-Gone spray to try and combat the clover?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm not a fan of aerating in Spring. It's just too many variables to have to deal with, when the roots are trying to grow, the weeds are trying to germinate, etc. If I really need to do it, I do it in the late Summer, and always overseed at the same time. I don't do it unless I have to. There have only been a handful of times over the past 6 years when I've aerated; it's not an every year thing for me.

As far as weed and feed, if you mean using a granular product, I'm not a fan of those. The only time I think I would probably consider using it is if I got it for free, or already had it. We did that on a family member's lawn last year. But spraying just works so much better and is, I believe, so much more environmentally friendly. You just need a really light spray when you're spraying weed control, and it coats the leaves, especially if you use a surfactant (which you're supposed to in most cases).

Whether or not you need a second application of Pre-M this Summer will depend mostly on how much you've already applied and how many weeks have gone by since then. Generally, aerating breaks up that barrier.

I like Milorganite in June, but remember that Milorganite takes longer to kick in than synthetic fertilizer, so you probably want to do it in early June.

As far as clover, it's not a bad plant to have; it can even make Nitrogen available to the grass and help it grow better. But If you have too much and want to try to get rid of it or thin it out, you'll want to use Triclopyr once everything is green and growing steadily. It might take 2 or 3 applications, separated by 2 weeks or so to totally kill it.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

The main reason for aerating is strictly due to the compaction I'm having. I figured late may would be a good time because I'm assuming the roots have stopped developing and the plant is focusing on top growth. My logic is that it would be less damaging than doing it now. Also, since I was planning on applying a second app of PreM that would fix any issues of penetrating the existing barrier.

The weed and feed I was referring to is the granular type. I really wasn't even considering the spray kind. I think I may go that route instead.

The clover is really invasive. As you can see by the photo below I have several patches of the stuff.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The guideline from Purdue is to aerate when the grass is actively growing. I think you have a sound plan. I would try to incorporate OM when you aerate (compost). This should help compaction.

From the image, this looks like a new construction/lawn. I will suggest to do a soil test. The lawn looks fairly thin and light green. It looks like it needs nitrogen. I would treat it like a new lawn and do spoon feeding to encourage grow and spread.

I will also let the clove be until you get the lawn to be more robust. Weed b Gon CCO is the optimal herbicide for it, but it could kill your current lawn.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

Thanks G-Man. You are correct that it's a new construction lawn (back in 2012/13) that wasn't maintained at all. I'll definitely be getting a soil test at some point. I'm a little intimidated as there's a lot of info and honestly I'd like the simplest one possible.

I think I'll start off with my current method and hold off on the clover until summer/fall. Since I did a heavy spray of weed killer last fall and started applying fert I should probably see how the yard starts out this spring to see where I'm at. I'll definitely need an overseed in the fall and I'll definitely have a soil test done before that. Hopefully the PreM I applied will start the lawn off right. I'll definitely post some before/after photos to compare.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

I'd get the soil test done this spring as that will help "simplify" a plan instead of guessing. What coverage rate did you apply the pre-em at? Weed & feeds are meh...if you want to fertilize, use fertilizer. If you want to deal with weeds, use post-emergent products off the shelf. Grassy weeds will require different stuff like Tenacity or even Round-up.

There is some debate aerating post pre-em application and if disrupts the "weed barrier". I rather not mess with the barrier and skip the spring aeration. Try using the soil conditioner mixture (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=208), baby shampoo, even cheap shampoo all season. Then work on increasing OM with soybean meal, alfalfa pellets, cracked corn at they are cheap. Apply anywhere between 10 -20 lbs/k.

Compost is nice but is a TON of work spreading throughout the lawn. Years ago I was going to do the whole lawn but gave up after 4k...straight up sucked. There is a place in Iowa that makes a granular compost (https://ultracompost.com, but I recall it not being the most wallet-friendly.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

zeus201 said:


> I'd get the soil test done this spring as that will help "simplify" a plan instead of guessing. What coverage rate did you apply the pre-em at? Weed & feeds are meh...if you want to fertilize, use fertilizer. If you want to deal with weeds, use post-emergent products off the shelf. Grassy weeds will require different stuff like Tenacity or even Round-up.
> 
> There is some debate aerating post pre-em application and if disrupts the "weed barrier". I rather not mess with the barrier and skip the spring aeration. Try using the soil conditioner mixture (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=208), baby shampoo, even cheap shampoo all season. Then work on increasing OM with soybean meal, alfalfa pellets, cracked corn at they are cheap. Apply anywhere between 10 -20 lbs/k.
> 
> Compost is nice but is a TON of work spreading throughout the lawn. Years ago I was going to do the whole lawn but gave up after 4k...straight up sucked. There is a place in Iowa that makes a granular compost (https://ultracompost.com, but I recall it not being the most wallet-friendly.


The bag calls for 3.4lb per 1k sq ft. I was having some difficulty putting it down as it's only the second time using my tow behind spreader and it wasn't working properly. I definitely have some area's that got a heavier dose than others. The product allows for a max of 9.2lb per app and a total of 27lb per year and even in the heavy spots I am well below that rate.

I will have to look into those OM you posted and see what I can get locally. Composting would definitely be a chore seeing as I have about 22k sq ft to cover. If I can get something I can apply by spreader that would be preferred.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

What pre-em did you end up using?


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

zeus201 said:


> What pre-em did you end up using?


Menards Crabgrass Preventer


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Hopefully a bigger or multiple bags, right? This one covers 5k sqft.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> Hopefully a bigger or multiple bags, right? This one covers 5k sqft.


Yep. I used a 15k sqft bag and a 5k sqftbag. I have approx 22k sq ft but 2k of that has grass seed down so I used a different product on that portion.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

A neighbor asked me about this one also from Menards. Forever Green Crabgrass Preventer
It is on special at $16 for 10k sqft and it uses Dimension as the PreM

The only small problem with both of these is the rate of Dimension is very low (0.174lb of ai/ acre rate). This is an easy problem to fix. I told my neighbor (and now you), to buy two bags. Apply one now and the other one in 6-8weeks. This spaces out the nitrogen and provides an increase layer of PreM protection. Also since it is dimension, it also has a PostM effect.

For other members that read this in the future. This recommendation is for a Tier 1 approach. Trying to keep things simple and easy.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> A neighbor asked me about this one also from Menards. Forever Green Crabgrass Preventer
> It is on special at $16 for 10k sqft and it uses Dimension as the PreM
> 
> The only small problem with both of these is the rate of Dimension is very low (0.174lb of ai/ acre rate). This is an easy problem to fix. I told my neighbor (and now you), to buy two bags. Apply one now and the other one in 6-8weeks. This spaces out the nitrogen and provides an increase layer of PreM protection. Also since it is dimension, it also has a PostM effect.
> ...


That was the approach I was planning on going with. I'm still learning and have a limited budget right now so I figured I'd take more of a tier 1 approach to begin with. Come this fall I will hopefully be able to step up my game. I need to see if I can get straight Dimension or Barricade locally.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I agree with g-man. There is a large school of thought that says you should not aerate. I think this is good advice someplaces but not in others. I am of the opinion that you (or I should say *I*) can't aerate too often. This is because when I took soil samples this spring I saw that the soil on my lot could go directly into a brick oven and be made into bricks. (and it's silt not clay) Since I don't intend to kill and retill , the alternative is to aerate. I also have a soil science textbook that says earthworms aren't sufficient although they help. Again this depends on local conditions. How long has the area been under cultivation or civilization? Was it ever a farm in a previous era? Each spot is different.

I would recommend you seed with tall fescue because it sends down deep roots. 
Get a tow behind boom sprayer and start using liquids. 
The Menards product you used has dithiopyr which is both pre and post emergent. You could do another dose of that later and you could add something with a little more broadleaf control to get the clover. One that comes to mind and I have a jug of it sitting here is Q4 plus. It has two broadleaf controls (2,4 D and Dicamba) and also quinclorac and sulfentrazone. Grass Factor has a youtube video about it.

New construction dirt even if decent quality needs a lot of organic matter, better living through chemistry(weed and feed) and cultivation practices to turn it into soil.

It sounds like you are on the right track.


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## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Since the plan is to pre emergent after aerating then all should be good on the barrier front.

Something to consider as well are liquid aerification products. Wether it's a DIY version or the commercial ones going around. Holes in the ground help but if you can get all of the soil softer as well that would be beneficial.


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## sicride (Nov 8, 2017)

Why is it nobody has mentioned there isn't a blade of turf grass in the picture he provided? 100% agree with doing a soil test. If you can work on the major deficiencies and bring in lots of top soil or organic matter will be headed in the right direction.

Most importantly, looks like you need to start planning a full fall renovation. Sorry if that was a little blunt but I don't see much to work with in that picture other than a beautiful plot of land that could use a clean slate (preferably not slate).


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

Thanks for all the replies. A few more details based on the above posts.

1) This subdivision was built on farm land back in 2012; however, I'm not sure if the soil is from the original farm land or if they took the dirt from the hole they dug and used that to fill in the lot.

2) I will have to research the liquid aeration methods. I'm a skeptical of the soap method. Is there any scientific research to suggest that it truly works and/or that it won't harm the lawn?

3) Should I apply a full app of Milorginite along with my second app of PreM?

4) So all the weeds actually cover up the grass that is there. Below are pictures I took this morning. The grass is still greening up and really half of the back yard is good grass. It's just the last 1/4-1/2 that was full of weeds. I think it looks like KBG. Would you guys agree based on the close up images? If so that will spread. If it's TTTF will that fill in some?

(Sorry the images are so dark. I'll try taking some once the Sun decides to brighten things up a bit)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

1) Normally in new construction, they first take the topsoil from the farm land and sell it. If it has a basement, they will try to use the dirt from the basement to level around the house. The extra dirt from the basement hole is hauled away. So, normally all new construction is subsoil without organic matter and some construction material buried in there (rocks, concrete, plywood, etc).

2) It is safe. If it is really compacted, core aeration helps more. It will provide oxygen to the soil and a path for organic material to enter the soil faster. The theory behind soap (baby shampoo with SLS in the ingredients) is that the soap reduces the ionic charge of the soil so it is not so compacted.

3) I would not. Lets wait until your lawn wakes up. I think it needs more of a steady/frequent spoon feeding of nitrogen than a single big application. Have you started a log (see the main forum post)? Use it to keep track of the amount of nitrogen you applied. Avoid more than 1lb of N/M in a rolling month.

4) I see a couple of boat shape tips (one of the indicators of KBG). I dont think you need a reno. I think you will be fine once it wakes up and we help it develop.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

Like g-man said, use it with confidence, as the surfactants will gradually loosen the soil allowing water and air to penetrate easier. There are many liquid products out there, but the are alternative options which are bit cheaper.

I use soil conditioners all season long ranging from the mixture on this site site, baby soap or cheapo White Rain / Suave shampoo as long as SLS is the primary ingredient without any issues. Just do not use antibacterial soap. I usually target 3oz/k but if I go over it is no big deal. Water it in afterwards unless it is supposed to rain.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-ze0KvNPho


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

Thanks again. I think I'll try the soap. I'm going to look at the up&up at Target and see if that would work. I'm going to need a whole hell of a lot for 15k sq ft. haha. I think my plan will be to do a partial aeration of the area's that got highly compacted over the winter. My thought's are this: Core Aerate, apply liquid aeration to whole back yard (this should hopefully help a lot on the core aerated spots) and then apply either top soil or peat moss (which do you guys recommend? I think peat would be easier to apply and be cheaper) in the area's of high compaction to help fill in the holes (should I remove my clay plugs also?). Then apply my second app of PreM to put back the barrier on the soil. This would all be done roughly in early-mid May.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Look at Dollar Store. Baby shampoo there is really cheap in there.

My choices is a mix of compost and peat moss. No topsoil.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

You are about 250 miles north of me , and here in St. Louis the grass is just beginning to get started. It's way to early to decide that there is no grass.


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