# MSMA 6 Plus vs Celsius/Certainty



## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

I was over at my mother in laws house today and noticed their bermuda lawn was overcome with weeds of various types. I told her that I would spray her lawn if she wanted and she told me that her husband had a 6 gallon sprayer, but that he couldn't physically do the spraying. I didn't like the sprayer and know I would just use my own, but she showed me a 2.5 gallon jug of Drexel MSMA 6 Plus with surfactant that they had. She told me I could have some as they would never use it all. I plan to lay down some prodiamine and use the MSMA on their lawn.

However, I have used prodiamine and Celsius on my yard and there are literally no weeds to be found. It took a few weeks for the Celsius to do the job, but do the job it did. Would there be any benefit to using MSMA on my lawn instead of Celsius and are there any dangers in using MSMA like discoloration/burning/etc.? Does it work immediately or need time like Celsius? I haven't even opened the Certainty as the Celsius knocked everything out.


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## kur1j (Jul 2, 2017)

Celsius won't do anything for nutgrass or other sedges, dallisgrass, etc. so you still might need the Certainty or MSMA if you see any of that pop up.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Dallisgrass is really the only weed that the Celsius/Certainty combo won't take care of. MSMA will burn at 90* plus temps, but is relatively safe below that. Best advice would be to use the full rate of 2 oz/gal at 80 and work down to 1 oz/gal at 90. Be careful with spot spraying as the application rate tends to be higher than intended.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Thanks guys. Has anybody mixed prodiamine and MSMA together? Thought maybe could spray the mixture 24 hours before expected rain as they don't have an irrigation system.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

gatormac2112 said:


> Thanks guys. Has anybody mixed prodiamine and MSMA together? Thought maybe could spray the mixture 24 hours before expected rain as they don't have an irrigation system.


Should be fine. I've mixed it with Pendimethalin and it didn't have any problems. MSMA does great on grassy weeds but doesn't get many of the broadleaf weeds.


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## kur1j (Jul 2, 2017)

J_nick said:


> gatormac2112 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks guys. Has anybody mixed prodiamine and MSMA together? Thought maybe could spray the mixture 24 hours before expected rain as they don't have an irrigation system.
> ...


On a side note are you at all worried about working with the MSMA? I usually use eye protection long sleeves, long pants, shoes, latex gloves and a P100 rated gas mask. Any tips or am I being overly paranoid?


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

I keep the kids off of it till I can wash it off the grass. As for me I might have a pair of sunglasses on.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)




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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

Grin!!


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## kur1j (Jul 2, 2017)

gatormac2112 said:


>


Haha, true.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Reviving an old thread due to some new questions:

I still haven't used the MSMA, but after a Prodiamine app this spring and a summer app of Celsius/Certainty, I have some spurge popping up as well as some goose grass on the south end where the lawn struggles a bit.

I'm not sure why the Prodiamine and Celsius combo didn't handle the Spurge so I was thinking about trying MSMA instead.

Tomorrow will be a high of 92 with no rain. *With herbicides do you only worry about temp at time of application?* Could I apply it tomorrow evening when it gets in the mid 80's and not worry about damaging the grass. The label says yellowing might occur irregardless of temperature....*what are people's experience with MSMA and chlorosis/yellowing?*

Or should I just spray Celsius again? I hate the time it takes to kill it though.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

The temp for the next several days needs to be accounted for, not just the temp at application.

Without knowing the tolerance of Zorro, I would mix a very light dose (.5 oz in 1 gallon) and spot spray a small area. If it is going to cause yellowing or injury, it will probably show in 3-4 days or sooner.


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## Alan (Apr 23, 2017)

I wouldn't call MSMA a quick kill, it's not Glyphosate (Roundup). The Goosegrass may take a couple applications depending on how strong you mix the MSMA.....fyi.


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## Jacob_S (May 22, 2018)

I must have weak dallisgrass cause celsius did quite a number on it when used at high rate and two apps about a month apart. And by did a number I mean its gone.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

On domyown com it says MSMA is not for residential lawns what gives.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

CenlaLowell said:


> On domyown com it says MSMA is not for residential lawns what gives.


MSMA isn't labeled for residential use.
Policy changed in 2009, went into effect in 2011 I think. Thank the EPA.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > On domyown com it says MSMA is not for residential lawns what gives.
> ...


I think this is essentially on hold, but will be reevaluated again next year IIRC.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The re evaluation is to determine whether golf courses will still be allowed to spot spray 100 sq ft out of an entire acre. I have a hard time believing that label is being followed when it is still being made and sold by the pallet. 100 sq ft x 18 holes would barely be 2,000 sq ft. No one needs a 2 1/2 gallon bottle if that is being done. Try more like a quart at a time. The entire accusation is BS anyway. It started just because golf courses in Florida were spraying it during the summer rain season.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The re evaluation is to determine whether golf courses will still be allowed to spot spray 100 sq ft out of an entire acre. I have a hard time believing that label is being followed when it is still being made and sold by the pallet. 100 sq ft x 18 holes would barely be 2,000 sq ft. No one needs a 2 1/2 gallon bottle if that is being done. Try more like a quart at a time. The entire accusation is BS anyway. It started just because golf courses in Florida were spraying it during the summer rain season.


Can't it still be used for road-side/fence line management or am I just guessing on that one?


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## coreymays22 (Apr 25, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The re evaluation is to determine whether golf courses will still be allowed to spot spray 100 sq ft out of an entire acre. I have a hard time believing that label is being followed when it is still being made and sold by the pallet. 100 sq ft x 18 holes would barely be 2,000 sq ft. No one needs a 2 1/2 gallon bottle if that is being done. Try more like a quart at a time. The entire accusation is BS anyway. It started just because golf courses in Florida were spraying it during the summer rain season.


Doesn't it have something to do with Organic Arsenic vs Inorganic Arsenic. Apparently that word strikes fear in everyone due to the stories of poisoning.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > The re evaluation is to determine whether golf courses will still be allowed to spot spray 100 sq ft out of an entire acre. I have a hard time believing that label is being followed when it is still being made and sold by the pallet. 100 sq ft x 18 holes would barely be 2,000 sq ft. No one needs a 2 1/2 gallon bottle if that is being done. Try more like a quart at a time. The entire accusation is BS anyway. It started just because golf courses in Florida were spraying it during the summer rain season.
> ...


That use may well go away too. I suspect that there are better products for that site. MSMA was used for that from the 1950s. Back then, there was no such thing as Glyphosate or SU herbicides. I can see the only remaining use allowed is on cotton fields.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

coreymays22 said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > The re evaluation is to determine whether golf courses will still be allowed to spot spray 100 sq ft out of an entire acre. I have a hard time believing that label is being followed when it is still being made and sold by the pallet. 100 sq ft x 18 holes would barely be 2,000 sq ft. No one needs a 2 1/2 gallon bottle if that is being done. Try more like a quart at a time. The entire accusation is BS anyway. It started just because golf courses in Florida were spraying it during the summer rain season.
> ...


Issue is that the Organic As the Methanarsonate can transform into inorganic As in the soil. Which then is a listed groundwater contaminant. In parts of Bangladesh and Indonesia, the groundwater naturally contains high levels of As. People consuming that water suffer organ damage, nerve damage, and cancer. However, the amount of As in the water is far higher than what was allegedly caused by MSMA application.


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## w0lfe (Mar 19, 2018)

Man I put down some certainty/Celsius over a week ago on my dad's lawn, and it hasn't done a dang thing to the spurge yet. The other weeds are showing signs of stress, but that stuff looks like it was fertilized


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## Alan (Apr 23, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Issue is that the Organic As the Methanarsonate can transform into inorganic As in the soil. Which then is a listed groundwater contaminant. In parts of Bangladesh and Indonesia, the groundwater naturally contains high levels of As. People consuming that water suffer organ damage, nerve damage, and cancer. However, the amount of As in the water is far higher than what was allegedly caused by MSMA application.


I have a water well, so I sure hope it looses its potency before it gets that far down into the ground.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Texas is the place I would worry the least about Arsenic movement. Heavy soils and not a lot of rain minimize that possibility.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

w0lfe said:


> Man I put down some certainty/Celsius over a week ago on my dad's lawn, and it hasn't done a dang thing to the spurge yet. The other weeds are showing signs of stress, but that stuff looks like it was fertilized


Did you spray a high dose of Celsius? That is needed to kill Spurge. It worked for me last year. Hopefully will this year as well.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

@Greendoc

So should I just throw it away? Is it too dangerous to use on the yard?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Nothing better than MSMA on goosegrass mix with quicksilver and its dead in 1 application


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

It's still the best for dallisgrass too.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

gatormac2112 said:


> @Greendoc
> 
> So should I just throw it away? Is it too dangerous to use on the yard?


NOOOOOO! Do not throw it away. It is not dangerous. Definitely not as dangerous as the EPA convened by Bill Clinton would want you to believe. This product has been in use since the 1950s. Has not killed anyone. What it did was cause an increase of of a few parts per million of Arsenic in a well near a golf course in Florida.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> gatormac2112 said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc
> ...


:lol: :thumbup:


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## outlawswine (Jun 23, 2018)

I had a huge dallisgrass infestation in my yard. I sprayed MSMA on it in 2 applications 7 days apart. It is essentially gone now. It also worked wonders on my nutsedge. 
I did however get some yellowing/browning of the grass. It didn't matter to me though because I've already chalked this year up to "wiping out the weeds".


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Thoughts on mixing Celsius and MSMA?


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Following


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

lvlikeyv said:


> Thoughts on mixing Celsius and MSMA?


I sprayed this mix just last week. Watch your temps with MSMA.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Spammage said:


> lvlikeyv said:
> 
> 
> > Thoughts on mixing Celsius and MSMA?
> ...


@Spammage what are temp limits ?

Thanks :thumbup:


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

ThomasPI said:


> Spammage said:
> 
> 
> > lvlikeyv said:
> ...


I'll spray 2 oz per 1000 up to 80° (max for the next several days), 1.5 oz per 1000 to 85°, and 1 oz per 1000 to 90°. Anything over 90° and you will get pretty good discoloration.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Thanks that lets out summers for us here. 90 plus and humid from June till Sept.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Do not apply the day of or before rain. That is how and why it got into the ground water under those Florida golf courses in the first place. They were spraying in the morning and the afternoon Florida thunderstorms leached it into ground water


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Thanks @Greendoc , I'd read that a few posts back. Surely a Spring and Fall application here. It pretty much rains daily and the weather forecast for tomorrow through the middle of September is 85% chance of rain daily.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Their product misuse ruined it for the entire industry


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

It's a shame, product labels serve a purpose for those who care and the balance of users may not give a rats azz such as you describe.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

A frequent thing in my business is telling people no when they expect products to be applied before bad weather is forecast.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

It's called being responsible and educating the client. I do it daily in my own business, Good on you for doing the right thing :thumbup:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

They do not pay my fines for violating the label or causing pollution. They also do not support me should my business get shut down.
Not hard for me to say no.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

So glad someone bumped this. I'm moving forward with confidence on the maiden application tomorrow :mrgreen:


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> They do not pay my fines for violating the label or causing pollution. They also do not support me should my business get shut down.
> Not hard for me to say no.


That's some serious incentive in itself.


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