# Effectiveness of tank mix herbicides and N source



## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Anyone have experience spraying tank mixtures of herbicides along with a nitrogen source?

I've seen labels for products like Monument, Princep 4L, Celsius, and others, note that liquid fertilizer can be used as a partial or full replacement for water. Depending on the label, there are assertions about both increased effectiveness of the herbicide and also increased damage to non-target plants, which sounds similar to me to the impact of using an MSO.

Anyone have experience, one way or the other, on whether to include a nitrogen source into the spray to increase effectiveness, and if so, is it any better, worse, or the same as using an MSO?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Guess that's a no

@thegrassfactor I saw your slow release and urea videos. You mentioned you would do a video on ammonical nitrogen. Any chance you will touch on the pros/cons of adding fertilizer to a tank spray, specifically in regards to herbicides?

I intend to ask the same question for UTs poa day in advance since I won't be able to watch the live stream.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@high leverage , you have any experience with this?


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I think the one main advantage to adding Nitrogen to your herbicide spray is that the weed will take up the herbicide faster as it is also getting a boost of Nitrogen and the Nitrogen may offset any side effects that the herbicide may have with the grass. I would be careful using it though as spraying Nitrogen in low volumes can cause leaf tissue burn.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Guess that's a no
> 
> @thegrassfactor I saw your slow release and urea videos. You mentioned you would do a video on ammonical nitrogen. Any chance you will touch on the pros/cons of adding fertilizer to a tank spray, specifically in regards to herbicides?
> 
> I intend to ask the same question for UTs poa day in advance since I won't be able to watch the live stream.


Nitrogen is a great tank additive to increase herbicide efficacy. It cuts down surface tension, and will speed up translocation. Use urea for sulfonyl ureas and AMS for all other herbicides.

I'd even argue N increases efficacy of Fungicides as well


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I've heard about people adding citrus acid and urea to the tanks. There's a great foliar applicator on LawnSite that runs a business in Hawaii that I think would be great if he found this site.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

ABC123 said:


> I've heard about people adding citrus acid and urea to the tanks. There's a great foliar applicator on LawnSite that runs a business in Hawaii that I think would be great if he found this site.


Rey is one if my biggest inspirations. When I got out of school, I realized how little I knew. I am likely his biggest fan. And I'll fight you for that title 😂😂😂


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## tnlynch81 (Jun 29, 2017)

How much AMS per gallon would you add?


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

tnlynch81 said:


> How much AMS per gallon would you add?


I'd look into how much your turf type can foliarly absorb and add that amount.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ABC123 said:


> tnlynch81 said:
> 
> 
> > How much AMS per gallon would you add?
> ...


Most grasses can absorb only 1/10 lb of N per 1000 sq ft as a foliar liquid. Any more and it will quite possibly burn leaves unless applied at a spray volume of 10 gallons per 1 lb of N per 1000 sq ft. At that 10 gallons per 1000 sq ft volume it becomes partially a soil application. Lower volumes may be used to apply up to 1 lb N per 1000 sq ft but that means the application gets watered in immediately. I do a lot of that commercially. 0.5 lb of N applied and the irrigation system is short cycled right away.

I have previously used Trimec with a soluble 20-20-20 on Bermuda at the rate of 1/10 lb of N per 1000 sq ft at an application rate of 1 gallon of spray per 1000 sq ft. This was before MSM and Celsius existed. I have been in the business long enough to remember when the only herbicides used on warm season turf were Atrazine, Simazine, MSMA, and the 2,4-D based weed controls. Results of the above application were weeds killed to a higher degree than Trimec alone and some rather green grass. Normally, Trimec stresses Bermuda enough that I will not use it on Bermuda for broadleaf weed control.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Welcome to TLF @Greendoc :thumbup:


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Ware said:


> Welcome to TLF @Greendoc :thumbup:


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> ABC123 said:
> 
> 
> > tnlynch81 said:
> ...


Thank you sir. It may not be an issue in your location but I am especially curious about how N works when added to post-ems for poa control, whether that be simazine, glyphosate, monument, katana, revolver, manor, Celsius, image, and Certainity

Non poa specific, does N added impact herbicide uptake the same as a MSO? Can N source and MSO be combined to any benefit?

I am just trying to think of atypical situations where it could be challenging to get a complete kill, such as when doing multiple apps of glyphosate to kill Bermuda.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In general, I do not combine fertilizers with anything that needs MSO as a surfactant. I also avoid applying liquid fertilizers with surfactants period. Reason is, that there is the issue of burning sensitive turf. Exception to this is any kind of preemergent or herbicide expected to go through the soil. Fungicides targeting root diseases are ok. So is grub control insecticides. Those situations are normally where I cycle irrigation right after application. If I wanted or needed the enhanced activity of N, my procedure that has evolved from when I made that application 20 + years ago is to fertilize a week or two before the herbicide application.

The grass factor is right about fertilizers helping fungicides. In many cases, disease is made worse by starved grass. You cannot starve a turf area enough to control or prevent a disease. Conversely, it is possible to make turf either outgrow a disease or recover from it via nutrition.

Now for Glyphosate, the reason for Ammonium Sulfate in the mix is to tie up Calcium in the water and also make the water acidic. Ammonium Sulfate solutions have a pH under 6. Glyphosate forms an unavailable compound with Calcium. So AS in the water makes a solution where the Glyphosate can work optimally. This effect is significant when going after hard to kill or less susceptible weeds. For Bermuda or other turfgrasses that are to be scrapped, I never expect Glyphosate alone to do it. My usual application includes Glyphosate+Fusilade II+Triclopyr+Monument or Sedgehammer. Why? When I am asked to get rid of turf, it is because it has become infested with hard to kill weeds or else the area is to become a landscaped area. It is also the case that the grass there is totally not wanted and must not grow back into the new sod. In another time, such an area would be gassed for 48 hours with Methyl Bromide or have a gallon of Vapam applied and a plastic sheet put over it.

The times that I worry about complete kill of Bermuda include if the turf is going to be another type of Bermuda or St Augustine or Seashore Paspalum. I do not worry much if the turf is going to be Centipede or Zoysia. Those two grasses can be treated in a way to kill volunteer Bermuda during the growing season.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Greendoc why the monument or sedgehammer? What rates would you have to apply if using those, and does doing so get you down to a quicker kill in terms of timeline? I had assumed four apps of glyphosate, with optional fusillade, would do the job.

The fusillade and triclopyr I get.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> @Greendoc why the monument or sedgehammer? What rates would you have to apply if using those, and does doing so get you down to a quicker kill in terms of timeline? I had assumed four apps of glyphosate, with optional fusillade, would do the job.
> 
> The fusillade and triclopyr I get.


It's the combination of modes of action. For instance, if you're doing a complete kill on Bermuda with bits of nutsedge, the monument plus gly will give you a very thorough kill. The gly plus fusilade will give you a thorough kill. Gly alone will only ding them both. More modes of action, more attack methods on the plant, a more complete death.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

I just fan boy'ed over @Greendoc and then he shows up 😂😂😂 little embarrassing...


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> I just fan boy'ed over @Greendoc and then he shows up 😂😂😂 little embarrassing...


I figured you were to one that invited him, his registration came in not long after you went all fan boy :mrgreen:


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Pure coincidence &#129315;


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> @Greendoc why the monument or sedgehammer? What rates would you have to apply if using those, and does doing so get you down to a quicker kill in terms of timeline? I had assumed four apps of glyphosate, with optional fusillade, would do the job.
> 
> The fusillade and triclopyr I get.


Glyphosate alone is good for shallow rooted annual weeds. It needs help with perennials and sedges. Don't have it in front of me but there was a study on kill of Bermuda in golf renovations. You need more than Glyphosate to get it done in one growing season. In my state, there is Kyllinga and Purple Nutsedge from hell. It got that way from exclusive use of Glyphosate. Weed populations shift to species that are less susceptible. I try not to be part of the problem. That is why sedges get Certainty or Monument when the landscape is being scrapped.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

thegrassfactor said:


> I just fan boy'ed over @Greendoc and then he shows up 😂😂😂 little embarrassing...


No worries. I hope you don't get the idea that I am stalking you. The other forum has got people who do not appreciate what they have. These guys here think it is perfectly reasonable to use a greensmower. Over there rough cutting Bermuda and Zoysia is an acceptable practice. That is on a forum for the the professionals.


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

Is ammonium sulfate special for this use, or would pure urea have the same effect? It's also typical to use UAN which would be both, what benefit does that have?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

ryeguy said:


> Is ammonium sulfate special for this use, or would pure urea have the same affect? It's also typical to use UAN which would be both, what benefit does that have?


I think it depends on what you're spraying.

I used this article as a source. https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/cpr/weeds/effect-of-mso-and-ams-on-group-14-herbicides-05-26-16
Page 4 talks about the different type of N sources.

This also relates to this thread. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3799


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