# PFTanx - A rudderless ship; help!



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I never thought growing grass could be so difficult. I'm having a heck of a time and I'm throwing away lots of $ on this lawn. Here is a background and timeline with some photos attached.

Background;
-New Build
-100% clay soil, it's nasty
-Irrigation system installed
-Running irrigation daily in the morning

Timeline
-Finish grade in May
-Hydroseed in May (
-Learned finish grade SUCKED; section of yard flooded, festered, rotted, stunk etc
-Pythium infection June, killed 1/4 of lawn, very spotty dead areas
-Phosphite application and I THINK Mefenoxam to treat PB
-Installed French drain to fix water retention areas
-New top soil over French drain (2-3") with some finish grading in the area as well
-Drainage issue fixed!
-Applied Scott's Disease Ex 30-40 days after phosphite application (preventative)
-reapplied hydroseed with a 50/50 seed/proganics mixture (was told proganics didn't require me to till up bare clay areas or apply top soil)
-Desparation move, a few days after reapplication of hydroseed, a derecho was forecast, so I put straw blankets down (not ideal)
-10 to 20 days, pretty good growth! 
-30 days crispy brown dead grass in large areas of lawn
-Accepting defeat, although there are some nice areas of grass (shaded areas)

Plan going forward
-Done trying to grow in hot humid summer and done with the hydro seeded, I'll seed myself in the fall

My issue is that I don't know what to do up to the application of seed in the fall. The clay sucks, I think what I'll do is

-Hand till bare, hard packed areas
-Apply thin layer of top soil to these areas 
-Level ruts
-Seed
-Roll Peat over entire lawn

Question;
-What am I missing? Should I be treating the clay leading up to this? I know there is liquid aerator, lime etc.

Here are some pics. Thanks for your help!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Wow that is a major investment of money and time. I think you better get some knowledge. I think you may be complicating things. And timing is important to ensure success. Good luck .


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

You tried to seed in the summer? That could be a major issue. Typically early september would be more ideal. Watering 3x a day to keep moist.

Also did you do a soil test? Clay soil can run very acidic sometimes so would be good to know your levels.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> Wow that is a major investment of money and time. I think you better get some knowledge. I think you may be complicating things. And timing is important to ensure success. Good luck .


Yes…that is exactly why I'm here. Having someone come spray hydro seed didn't seem all that complicated. I watered it. That's it. The rest of the stuff was out of my control and here I am….thirsting for knowledge.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Jersey_diy said:


> You tried to seed in the summer? That could be a major issue. Typically early september would be more ideal. Watering 3x a day to keep moist.
> 
> Also did you do a soil test? Clay soil can run very acidic sometimes so would be good to know your levels.


Yes, followed the advice of the hydro seeder (and my wife's demand for grass) and seeded in the late spring and again in mid summer. I tried several waterings per day and ended up with PB, so I've dialed back to once per day in the morning. I did do a soil test, picture attached. I'd agree that it is acidic. Aside from that, I'm not exactly sure where to go from here.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Start with a soil test from a reputable lab. I used Waypoint Analytical. You can even order a soil composition test that will tell you what your percentages are. You probably don't have 100% clay soil as most people don't.

Then do an irrigation audit. Set up some tuna cans or similar in areas around the yard and run your zones. Check the cans periodically until they have all filled to 1/2". Double the time you ran each zone and that's how long it takes to put down 1".

Armed with your soil test and irrigation audit, read the cool season lawn guide stickied in this section. Then read it again…and read it again. It's a wealth of knowledge and will get you started. You may not be ready for a full on renovation, but you can certainly put some topsoil down in spots that need work. Then get some good seed (Either a PRG or TTTF) and overseed it this fall. That should get you headed in the right direction for the upcoming growing season and then youll be ready to go come spring.


----------



## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

First, I would think long-term. Don't expect a better lawn for at least a full growing season. Second, you got some okay areas and some not okay areas, but It's probably not as bad as you think.

So now you know not to seed in the late Spring and Summer. Done. It looks like you need some organic compost to help the existing soil and plan to seed in the next week. Yes, next week or ASAP. I'll let others chime in, now.

Hey, my wife thinks anything green is good. Weeds, whatever.


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

Yeah I think it simply comes down to poor timing and nutrient deficiencies. I agree with the recommendations above. When you go to overseed again I would do the following:

1. Verify the soil temperature will be ideal for germination in your area. (greencastonline.com)
2. Test the output of your sprinklers(1 inch per weak, this will be needed after you are done with daily watering.
3. Mechanical Aeration.
4. Your soild is Alkaline, so you need to address that with some sulfur
3. Topdress with topsoil(will add nutrients quickly).
4. Use Tenancity pre-em day of seeding
5. Seed. (water 3 times a day for 5 minutes, ground should feel moist to the hand not wet)
6. Two weeks after germination apply starter fertilizer.
7. get a manual reel mower and cut grass once it reaches 2 inches.
8. Keep expectations measured as the grass won't look its best for about 2 years.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Thanks for the reply. @Old Hickory Seed in the NEXT WEEK? Its hot and muggy here (Southern Michigan) through Sept, so I was going to wait for Oct to do any further work. What do you think?

@Jersey_diy Thanks for the tips! I was actually thinking about taking Garden Weasel Cultivator and Tiller to the bare/dead/compact clay spots to break it up and then top dress with some soil. After that, I was thinking about spreading seed on the entire yard and putting a thin layer of peat over it. I have some questions about what you've outlined....

1-How/What do I use to add sulfur? How much etc?
2-WHEN should I see per your outline?
3-If you can't tell from the photos, I have straw blankets. This is to address seed washing off of clay (it's happened once already). Should I just pull these up? Most of the grass in the nylon is dead looking.
4-How can I tell if the brown areas are totally dead or just "dormant" from lack of watering? Would be great to bring it back with some hefty watering....

Main concern now is timing of soil prep and when to actually seed.

I'm not looking for a golf course lawn either....I just want grass.....


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

Sounds good, see below.

1. you can get elemental sulphur in granular(Tutorial: 



).
2. I think you are asking when you should seed, it depends on your area.. your soil temperature should be 70F-55F. On the greencast site you can see what typical soil temperatures are in your area by date. Probably second week of September if I were to guess.
3. I would think that the straw blanket would need to come up prior to seeding for best seed to soil contact(never used them), but you could put more down after seed if you felt it helped with washout.
4. Hard to say, only would have to assume that since the grass didn't have enough time to develop deep roots that they just died and won't come back, I would go with the assumption that it is dead and if you miss your seeding time you will be back to seeding in the spring again. This would not be ideal.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Take a look at the cool season overseed guide too. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16808

Honestly, I wouldn't mess with your pH right now. It's not really that high anyway and can be very difficult to even adjust. You wanna focus on getting the yard up to your standards which will happen with good cultural practices regardless of pH.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

All a bit overwhelming....I read the Reno guide and the overseeding guide. I don't want to do a full Reno, but I do want to oversee. A Reno would need to happen soon to give it time into the fall to grow before winter. Overseeding seems like a fall project so as to have the seed in place for spring growth. I feel like I fall somewhere in between.....Soil temp now through first week of sept seems to be 75ish so probably not ideal to plant now. TBH, the second spraying did great on the newly spread topsoil (almost no impact on the compact areas that the provider said Proganics would take care of), but 30 days later its dead. What a kick in the nuts!


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You need to seed ASAP. Don't worry about soil temps. Watering several times a day will be enough to help the seed germinate. Folks across the midwest US and here in Ontario seeded weeks ago in high 80 temps. They're grass is coming in very nicely.

Rip up whatever blankets you can. Ignore your soil test report for the time being. You need grass. You can amend your soil next season. For that matter, a soil test is not mandatory. It helps, for sure, but I took care of my old lawn for 3 years without one and it was a tier 3 lawn.

Scalp the area and loosen the soil in the really bare areas then seed with TTTF or perennial ryegrass. Keep the soil bed moist from morning until early evening. Do not water after approx. 6pm.

Someone above recommended an irrigation audit - this is a great idea. You need to know if you have even coverage with your heads.

FWIW, I would argue most people on here have less than ideal soil. Nothing you can do overnight will change the soil structure. It takes times to get your soil levels to a more optimum range.

Get the best seed bed you can and seed ASAP. Worry about everything else later.


----------



## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Thanks for the reply. @Old Hickory Seed in the NEXT WEEK? Its hot and muggy here (Southern Michigan) through Sept, so I was going to wait for Oct to do any further work. What do you think?


That would be way too late. The grass needs enough time to get established before winter frost. You'll be watering multiple times daily at first and that will keep the soil cool enough. Take the straw blankets up, mow it all low, rake/dethatch, and get seed down ASAP.

edit: Harts beat me to it all lol


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I wish I could describe the level of anger I have toward this process. It started with a crappy grade job and has been a ton of work. Thinking it's best to pay professionals to do what they do best, i paid a lot of $ to have this finish graded and reseeded. $7k later I've got those pictures to show for it. I can't believe I need to go rip up the blankets, loosen soil and reseed a THIRD time. ::::siggghhhhh::::


----------



## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

Another Michigander. Welcome.

I overseeded a small area on the 21st. My soil is similarly basic and I have little to no issues growing grass. The clay we have here in Michigan also shouldnt be an issue. I am actually on a sand/loam area FWIW.

Here is what I would do in your shoes. Try to follow the overseed guide ASAP and get down either TTTF or PRG this year just for coverage and then if you are still not happy with it next spring, you can go full blown reno. Definitely do an irrigation audit as well so you know your coverage is good. Having said that I only irrigate when seeding and until the new grass is semi-established and for the rest of the year its up to mother nature.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

As I and others mentioned. it isn't too hot and humid to seed. The phrase "Fall is the best time to seed" is misleading. It should be re-phrased as Late Summer.

I promise you it is no hotter or more humid in Southern MI than it is in Southern Ontario or anywhere in the midwest US right now.

You have been given all the right answers. I know it sucks to have to do this again, but at least now you're going into this armed with the proper knowledge and have support from this forum throughout the entire process.


----------



## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> Thanks for the reply. @Old Hickory Seed in the NEXT WEEK? Its hot and muggy here (Southern Michigan) through Sept, so I was going to wait for Oct to do any further work. What do you think?
> 
> I'm not looking for a golf course lawn either....I just want grass.....


Even if you do wait a few weeks you need to start the process now. Make a plan using the overseeding guide. Get the product(s) and maybe tools. Find your area's annual first freeze date and work backwards. How many days do you have until that date? Those are the days that the seed needs to germinate and grow, mow, grow, mow, grow, etc. so that it can be strong enough to withstand that first freeze and the winter. So yes, start right now.

And this is for just grass.

Check out this guide from Lawn Care Nut regarding seeding in 90 degree temperatures.

https://thelawncarenut.com/blogs/news/cool-season-lawn-rehab-project-supplement-guide


----------



## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

Agreed with Harts, as usual.

If you need a second set of eyes and are somewhat close to Livonia (not hands, mine are full) let me know.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Well, that's been the thesis for this entire process of building. Hard knocks university. Grass growing has been no exception.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Ngilbe36 said:


> Agreed with Harts, as usual.
> 
> If you need a second set of eyes and are somewhat close to Livonia (not hands, mine are full) let me know.


@Ngilbe36 im not far. Just sent you a PM.


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

Hey I would go with the timing suggestion from above as they are more familiar with your climate. I was going off of NJ. Seeding in my area at this time would be too risky. Too hot and ground is bone dry even with irrigation. Had a tropical storm just come through and the ground soaked it right up, Sprinklers here wouldn't even make a dent.


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

Its a Marathon not a sprint.

Start reading all you can and start here.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595

As my dad used to say "boy if we could drill a hole in your head and pour it in we would.."


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I've read it…I just feel as though I'm an in betweener, but the answers here have provided some direction. The thing is, I didn't even want to do anything with grass except mow it. So this is all being done with a bit of reluctance. I appreciate the responses and I think it's time to get the gloves out, yet again, get out there and sweat my n00ts off.


----------



## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

PFTanx said:


> Well, that's been the thesis for this entire process of building. Hard knocks university. Grass growing has been no exception.


If its any consolation, buying and trying to renovate a 100 year old house by yourself is also full of fun times.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Jersey_diy said:


> Hey I would go with the timing suggestion from above as they are more familiar with your climate. I was going off of NJ. Seeding in my area at this time would be too risky. Too hot and ground is bone dry even with irrigation. Had a tropical storm just come through and the ground soaked it right up, Sprinklers here wouldn't even make a dent.


I don't really agree with this. There are people in your region doing renos that have seeded and are already seeing germination.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Overseed is needed quicker the better. Never know what weather is coming . He may have some bare spots that can be fixed later. Hey it can only get better. Get to it Get a mix of good seeds that germinate quickly turf type tall fescue.


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

lbb091919 said:


> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> > Hey I would go with the timing suggestion from above as they are more familiar with your climate. I was going off of NJ. Seeding in my area at this time would be too risky. Too hot and ground is bone dry even with irrigation. Had a tropical storm just come through and the ground soaked it right up, Sprinklers here wouldn't even make a dent.
> ...


But it isn't ideal, and for a novice too much room for things to go wrong. And for the amount of money that goes into it there is no real reason to seed so early. You could seed as late as September 30th and still have an established lawn(also not ideal). But for a novice I would definitely only recommend 1st or 2nd week of september in my area. But thats the great thing about lawns, people can do whatever they want...its just grass


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Jersey_diy said:


> lbb091919 said:
> 
> 
> > Jersey_diy said:
> ...


There are always variables and risk. Regardless of season.

I would argue there are less variables now, even with the heat, then in 2 to 3 weeks. What happens if October is unseasonably cool? Or if you need to throw more seed down two weeks in?

Despite the heat, now is the most ideal time. You only need to keep the soil moist so the seed stays wet. So even if your ground is dry as a bone, you're only keeping the top part moist.

I'd take my chances with heat over pending colder weather. Especially for a novice. Something is bound to go wrong and seeding too late doesn't give you anytime to rectify the situation. Not to mention leaving zero time for a fall pre emergent application.

Aside from the hurricane that came through the NE US, temps aren't any worse than they are in Southern Ontario or across the Midwest. Give or take a few degrees, it's hot and humid most everywhere.

If you're not seeding, these points are moot.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Harts said:


> You need to seed ASAP. Don't worry about soil temps. Watering several times a day will be enough to help the seed germinate. Folks across the midwest US and here in Ontario seeded weeks ago in high 80 temps. They're grass is coming in very nicely.
> 
> Rip up whatever blankets you can. Ignore your soil test report for the time being. You need grass. You can amend your soil next season. For that matter, a soil test is not mandatory. It helps, for sure, but I took care of my old lawn for 3 years without one and it was a tier 3 lawn.
> 
> ...


Like @Harts said, you need to seed about September 1 or so in southern Michigan. I am in the U.P. and I started 10 days ago. You need to be complete by the first FROST. I lived in Ann Arbor and Battle Creek. That first frost is NOT that far off. 
Core aerate and get some real organic s into that crummy clay. Get the pH down (hard to believe that it is 7.6)


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

PFTanx said:


> I've read it…I just feel as though I'm an in betweener, but the answers here have provided some direction. The thing is, I didn't even want to do anything with grass except mow it. So this is all being done with a bit of reluctance. I appreciate the responses and I think it's time to get the gloves out, yet again, get out there and sweat my n00ts off.


Just get sod. Instant lawn and you are mowing in two weeks. Apply glyphosate to what you have and pay someone to install sod. Get some irrigation setup to keep it watered.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

g-man said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > I've read it…I just feel as though I'm an in betweener, but the answers here have provided some direction. The thing is, I didn't even want to do anything with grass except mow it. So this is all being done with a bit of reluctance. I appreciate the responses and I think it's time to get the gloves out, yet again, get out there and sweat my n00ts off.
> ...


Lol, was just telling the wife tonight "should have just gotten sod".


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Harts said:


> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> > lbb091919 said:
> ...


Something I'm hesitant about is over watering. I think a lot of the reason I had the PB issue on the first go around was because of this. When the clay is saturated it doesn't dry out too quickly and seems like it makes the lawn susceptible to PB and other disease?


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Ok; organizing my thoughts….lots of info here.

-Pull up straw blankets
-Rake dead junk out
-Aerate/rough up compact clay areas
-add thin layer of top soil
-Spread seed
-Cover with peat moss
-Thin layer of straw?
-Water

Edit; this place isn't far. Would this be good to spread as top soil/seed cover?
https://monroemi.craigslist.org/grd/d/monroe-bulk-potting-soil-80-cubic-yards/7358184551.html


----------



## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

If growing grass was easy... we wouldn't have forums dedicated to it and we wouldn't need to under stand Tier 1, 2 or 3 grass growers.

Getting a good grassy yard is a long game. Want immediate results, close your eyes. LOL

But really, you did some good things. Learned some bad. Realized, grass can be hard (and expensive).

I didn't see how many sq ft you have. That can make a difference in how you approach the fixes. We have 60,000 sq ft so we have to buy multiple 50lb bags and gallons not ounces of product. It's also usually days of time per activity versus minutes or hours. And finally, medium sized rented or expensive-ish equipment is usually required rather than hand tools.

I have never lived in clay environment. We have the opposite, sand. It won't hold water for more than a few days (I can watch it soak through). So it's constant watering (very thankful for river sourced irrigation).

A few of the many questions I have:
You added topsoil, can you add more?

Would you be willing to just get green this fall/winter and plan a full renovation next fall (as you gather materials, knowledge/understanding), while building a good reno plan?

Realistically, how much patience do you have? (less patience may mean more money spent on faster results).

How much time do you have? Each level of grass game you go up means more time and money invested.

Welcome to the game.
Remember, it's just grass.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

thebmrust said:


> If growing grass was easy... we wouldn't have forums dedicated to it and we wouldn't need to under stand Tier 1, 2 or 3 grass growers.
> 
> Getting a good grassy yard is a long game. Want immediate results, close your eyes. LOL
> 
> ...


-I can add more top soil, yes. I have a good supplier very near by. I plan to get more spread before seeding.
-if I could get green into the fall I'd be happy with that. I don't think I'm ready for a full reno. No time/patience for that
-I'm mostly impatient
-My goal is to have a nice lawn for the kiddo to run around on next summer

Luckily 3/4 of my 19,000 sq/ft lawn is decent enough grass. Shady areas are superb soft, lush grass. Front lawn is abysmal as you can see in the pictures. That's about 4000-5000 sq ft and is pretty much the focus. I'll touch up a few other spots when I get the top soil out here.


----------



## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

I want to reiterate, I have never dealt with clay, so here's my thought(s) and others chime in.

Can your rototill/mix the topsoil and maybe hay or lots of grass clippings into the clay to effectively deep aerate? Add volume without compacting? Is it with the effort and cost?

For us, we did a reno 9/2020 to get green grass for our dogs. (It was a new to us property).

We planned on another reno this year 9/2021 but the equipment wasn't available to rent.

So we will manage weeds for the next year and reno 9/2022.

Our mostly sandy soild didn't have very much organic matter in it. The plan is to reno 2020, grow, mix in, reno 2022, grow, mix in, reno 2023, maintain.

Each time get the landscape shaped how we want it and get better at the grass growing. LOL

But I have more time than money, or common sense.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

thebmrust said:


> I want to reiterate, I have never dealt with clay, so here's my thought(s) and others chime in.
> 
> Can your rototill/mix the topsoil and maybe hay or lots of grass clippings into the clay to effectively deep aerate? Add volume without compacting? Is it with the effort and cost?
> 
> ...


@thebmrust i could certainly till the remaining straw in, although it seems like it's starting to rot. I question what roll this straw played in the murder of my lawn. Either way, I don't think it's diseased, so it may be beneficial to till it in.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

A picture is worth 1000 words. It's looking worse by the day. I almost wonder if it could be the top soil we used? Although it's growing beautifully in other parts of yard with same soil…




Also I've begun the process of pulling up the straw. Some new growth underneath, it looks slightly better. Maybe there's hope, but it still needs help. I have THOUSANDS of these little critters crawling around. Are they grubs? Can they do damage?


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Looks like you have Armyworms. At least in one of the pics you can see one. Yes they can do extreme damage.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Just googled an army worm and I have an army of thousands under these straw blankets. Do they do this kind of damage? Barren wasteland style.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Can you grab 2 of them and post a pic with then on white paper background?

I know theres alot of advice posted here. Hopefully I can simplify this a little. I'm blown away you have 7k into this btw. Sod would have been same money. Anyway call some favors in and get extra hands. Pull all that straw up and blankets. Then hit home depot or whatever you have local and rent a power rake/dethatcher it's the same thing. Cut grass low as possible and bag it all up. Then power rake it 2 full times each in a different direction. You will have TONS of material come up. Run the mower and bag it all up get it clean as possible. Then seed it with a good tttf. Get some good seed and get it fast this week is prime time to seed dont wait more than next weekend to finish this up. If you need a recommendation for seed try GCI turf their tttf is premium and you will have in a few days good pricing. Seed it properly and set sprinklers for 5 minutes or so 4 times a day spread out. Just moist ground not wet wet. I promise you grass will grow nicely if you follow this. Tenacity at seed down would be great if you can spray and have it. Otherwise Scott's starter with weed block that contains mesotrione is better than nothing.


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

3rd picture Armyworms 
You need to spray the entire yard. They will eat every bit of grass in just a few days.
https://www.domyown.com/bifen-it-p-226.html?sub_id=552


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

People will chime in You are ok I am a Newby but I think you can seed and treat for the worms at the same time. I think you created a perfect environment for them with a warm moist blanket.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmythegreek said:


> Can you grab 2 of them and post a pic with then on white paper background?
> 
> I know theres alot of advice posted here. Hopefully I can simplify this a little. I'm blown away you have 7k into this btw. Sod would have been same money. Anyway call some favors in and get extra hands. Pull all that straw up and blankets. Then hit home depot or whatever you have local and rent a power rake/dethatcher it's the same thing. Cut grass low as possible and bag it all up. Then power rake it 2 full times each in a different direction. You will have TONS of material come up. Run the mower and bag it all up get it clean as possible. Then seed it with a good tttf. Get some good seed and get it fast this week is prime time to seed dont wait more than next weekend to finish this up. If you need a recommendation for seed try GCI turf their tttf is premium and you will have in a few days good pricing. Seed it properly and set sprinklers for 5 minutes or so 4 times a day spread out. Just moist ground not wet wet. I promise you grass will grow nicely if you follow this. Tenacity at seed down would be great if you can spray and have it. Otherwise Scott's starter with weed block that contains mesotrione is better than nothing.


Here are some more pics of these little bastards.


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I used Bifen I/T to kill mine. As far as I can tell it worked.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

PFTanx said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > Jersey_diy said:
> ...


Over watering isn't good. But part of the disease problem you faced was the time of year you seeded. Yes, it's still hot and humid but those temps will be breaking soon and more seasonal temps will be back and disease pressure will start to decrease.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Man the knowledge in here is amazing. I have learned more in here since June . I am sure with some hard work this poor guy will be looking at newborn green grass soon. If I lived closer I would come and help.


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

yep Armyworms..
http://extension.cropsciences.illinois.edu/fieldcrops/insects/armyworm/
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/armyworm-alert-in-northern-michigan-and-upper-peninsula


----------



## Jersey_diy (Sep 5, 2020)

I have clay soil...I would at the very least recommend aeration and top dress. Rototill topsoil in would be great but probably more work then is needed to get the grass to grow. The great thing is that you have addressed drainage issues. Clay soil's issues are magnified when there is a problem with standing water.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Will a power rake dethatch and break up top layer of clay for a good seed bed?

Thinking about spraying bifin today and dethatchi g/power raking tomorrow. Thoughts?


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

PFTanx said:


> Will a power rake dethatch and break up top layer of clay for a good seed bed?
> 
> Thinking about spraying bifin today and dethatchi g/power raking tomorrow. Thoughts?


Power raking will do exactly what you need it to do.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Yes it will. You can start addressing the soil amendments later as time is running out on the seeding window. You want to get a few applications of nitrogen in after grass is up to thicken and strengthen it. You also want a little time for spot seeding or fixing trouble areas. 
As for the armyworms I peeked on domyown.com and there were 20+ products you could use. I think even bugbgone will hurt them. Do something quick to save what you have. On the other hand if you are looking for a nice uniform grass you could glyphosate a planned section and do that area then let the rest be an overseed and blend into existing. All depends on what you want the end result to be I've grown nice grass in poor soil many times. You can topdress with compost amd add nutrients many other ways. Then next season you can address the little stuff.


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

I seen this thread which inspired me to join for advice. Also, it appears that some of the folks are nearby (Livonia area).
I planted a climbing rose... Now I have to learn about rose care... Planted grass seed now I need to learn to grow it...

Why can't anything be easy...


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Here is where we stand. Power Raked, cleaned/raked best I can, now to kill worms. Will do a top dressing in some stubborn hard clay areas, seed and peat tomorrow.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

I just want to offer a few words of encouragement and acclaim ! You look to be doing a really, really admirable job ! This is one back-buster of a job, but look…f o r w a r d to when you and your wife can sit out there in that green oasis of beauty with glasses of iced tea (or adult beverage of your choice) and marvel at is as neighbors walk by with accolades !
Outstanding progress sir !


----------



## Coolseason7b (Aug 14, 2021)

Just chiming in to say I am pulling for you! Another newbie here diving in next week. Good luck and please keep us posted!


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> Here is where we stand. Power Raked, cleaned/raked best I can, now to kill worms. Will do a top dressing in some stubborn hard clay areas, seed and peat tomorrow.


And you said the ship didn't have a rudder.. Well there is a man on the tiller...

You hang in there we will all be here..


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

hobbyaddict1 said:


> Why can't anything be easy...


Never easy.. easy ain't fun.. got to keep learning and helping your brothers..

Glad you joined welcome and we will be here to help you too.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

He got right on it. I can't wait to follow his progress. Going to be a beautiful fall.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Get some rest let those worms have their last supper . Someone will know more about the mix. But it looks like 1 ounce a gallon. That may be max dose per 1000 sq ft. I don't know if going heavy can hurt the seed or present grass. You may be able to over apply without damage. I do it with granular insecticides. Good job. 
.


----------



## Schreibdave (Aug 15, 2020)

I think you will have better luck now that you are getting grass down at the right time of year. I think that was most of your problem.

I noticed that your soli test showed you low in P and K and I didn't see any discussion of how you were going to address that. I think that needs to be a priority though maybe not until latter in the fall and next year. I would think that a balanced fertilizer - often sold as garden fertilizer of 10-10-10 or 16-16-16 or similar - will be in your future for a long time. I also want to plug Milorganite. I think it works wonders. It can go down at anytime and at any quantity. It also has iron which your soil needs and which will darken the grass that you do have.

Good luck!


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Great job! Nothing better than getting it done. Hit those worms amd seed that puppy. As long as you keep that seed damp you will have a great outcome.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

A view from above. There is a silent massacre happening down there. Also read the bifren helps with mosquitos which is an added bonus. They're terrible here. Tomorrow is seed and peat.

PS; any tips on making fast work of spreading peat? I would love to use a peat roller, but no one around here rents them.

PSS; will be using a Scott's elite broadcast spreader. What's a good way to figure out the proper setting? I have 50 pounds of seed. How much should go down on 6000-8000 sq feet?


----------



## johnklein25 (Apr 22, 2021)

I think there is plenty of good advice here so, I'll just chime in to say that you're not the only one struggling, and that it really takes time. patience and discipline (even after you get the right plan/right advice). Don't give up! Good luck!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

All I know is beat the shit out of the bales. It breaks up the clumps. I just threw it around with a shovel . Gently rake and rool it. Better to do it when everything is totally dry.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Possibility of rain about noon. Kind of a rock and a hard place now…

Concern is that if it rains, the seed bed will get wet, dry and harden. Then I'll have to RE power rake it.

Second concern is that I don't know if I'll be able to get top dressing, seed and peat down prior to rain. Might be able to get as far as getting seed down.

But if I can't get the peat down, seed may wash away.

Which brings me to my final thought; would you do a thin layer of loose straw (NOT BLANKETS, learned that lesson) on a slope? I have a decent slope front to side yard and the drainage ditch. Could do some straw with tackifier.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

The weather is a variable we have not control over. It is better to Spread the peat when everything is dry. I would watch the weather . I know I would be putting seed down that is the easy part. If it does rain you can address with additional seed if some seed moves. Then cover with peat when it dries out. You are doing good what seed did you get.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> The weather is a variable we have not control over. It is better to Spread the peat when everything is dry. I would watch the weather . I know I would be putting seed down that is the easy part. If it does rain you can address with additional seed if some seed moves. Then cover with peat when it dries out. You are doing good what seed did you get.


I'm almost done spreading the top dressing. Started at 6:30. I'll get the seed down soon and run out to get peat. It should be dry long enough to get it down. It's a 50/50 rainfall day so it may not rain at all.

I'm attaching the label of the seed I got. It's a 50# bag from the guy that hydro seeded. It's Lesco which I realize may not be the best but where it did grow in my yard it's beautiful. And it'll match if I spread this. I think my Scott's elite spreader says 7.5 setting on the dial for spreading fescue?

    A NEW ISSUE     has arisen. I'm still seeing moving army worms! Plenty of dead ones but still some movers. I read this takes 10 mins to kill these things so that tells me my application wasn't effective. I'm not considering doing granular after seeding and then covering with peat. ::::sigh::::

:thumbup: update to my update :thumbup: I called domyown; they said an increase in these makes sense as they're trying to get away from the insecticide and that it will kill over time. So; here's hoping I applied the right amount an adequate fashion.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Seed at a low rate like 3 or 4. Do long passes in one direction. Apply half the seed. Then switch direction amd apply the other half. I like to leave a little seed leftover to walk amd spread by hand any areas that need it like edges. Your cutting it close with 50# I would treat that as a new lawn at #10lbs per 1k for that mix. If you have a slope your worried about the fake straw blankets from big box work well. Just dont leave them down long. Pull in 2 weeks when grass is popping thru. If you have home depots near you call and see if they have a peat spreader some have them


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I am not an expert on insect control. Read the directions and they will tell you when and if to retreat the area again. I am glad I never had that issue with worms. But I had grub damage and I learned from that error. I have made many errors. 
Here is my last over seed used.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmythegreek said:


> Seed at a low rate like 3 or 4. Do long passes in one direction. Apply half the seed. Then switch direction amd apply the other half. I like to leave a little seed leftover to walk amd spread by hand any areas that need it like edges. Your cutting it close with 50# I would treat that as a new lawn at #10lbs per 1k for that mix. If you have a slope your worried about the fake straw blankets from big box work well. Just dont leave them down long. Pull in 2 weeks when grass is popping thru. If you have home depots near you call and see if they have a peat spreader some have them


Luckily, I'm only reseeding about 1/3 of my 19000 square feet. Hopefully 50 pounds will do it for about 6000-8000 square feet.


----------



## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

To "me" tilling in grasses amends the soil with eventual nutrients and adds space in the dirt (aeration?). Our sand sheds (absorbs) water better then clay but it won't hold it. As we cycle our yard (grow, kill/till,reno) I'm hoping to add physical organics of old yard in to the sandy soil so it will start holding water longer. I just don't know if that's good practice for all soil types.


----------



## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

That bag of seed is full of weeds. Do not use it.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> That bag of seed is full of weeds. Do not use it.


To late! Guess I'll have throw down some fert+weed control?


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

There is nothing wrong with that seed it has 1 tenth of 1 percent weed. That is nothing.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

There is nothing wrong with that seed it has 1 tenth of 1 percent weed. That is nothing. I am pretty sure that is in line with industry standards.


----------



## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

rijkmus said:


> There is nothing wrong with that seed it has 1 tenth of 1 percent weed. That is nothing. I am pretty sure that is in line with industry standards.


Incorrect.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I see what you are saying. 4 seeds of poa per pound. There are over a million grass seed per pound. Am I missing something.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

This is the seed that was used in our backyard. It's shaded so it's grown in thick and beautifully. If those are weeds, they're beautiful weeds.

I really have no idea, but for now I need something green and if weeds are part of it, I'll deal with them later. Heck, I'm fully invested in this lawn now, so I'll put the work in for weed control when the time comes. Picking up peat at Lowe's! Almost done!


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

rijkmus said:


> I see what you are saying. 4 seeds of poa per pound. There are over a million grass seed per pound. Am I missing something.


Tall fescue is around 225,000 seeds per pound. So 0.10% of that would be 225 weed seeds per pound. Multiply that by 50 and you've got 11,250 weed seeds in that bag.

Normally you wouldn't want that, but in the OP's case he just wants green grass and is on a bit of a time crunch so it's probably ok for now.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I see what you are saying noxious weeds. I checked my bag and it says none found . I don't think he is going for Wrigley field. Poa is something that I have and may never be able to address. I don't like it but I am just trying improve every year. I think that withpre emergents I may be able to retard its spread. 
I would use those seeds but that me. I was taught not to waste.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

I agree with you there and especially in the short time frame he shouldn't waste those seeds either. Just wanted to clear up the weed percentage in that bag.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I see what you are saying noxious weeds. I checked my bag and it says none found . I don't think he is going for Wrigley field. Poa is something that I have and may never be able to address. I don't like it but I am just trying improve every year. I think that withpre emergents I may be able to retard its spread.
> I would use those seeds but that me. I was taught not to waste.


WHEN should I use a preemergant and what kind of pre emergent? Keep in mind I may be out of time babe have to use a big box brand.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

No pre emergent for you until spring. Don't even think about it yet. Some experts do a tenacity treatment when seeding. I am not at that level yet. But I may get a battery back sprayer next.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> No pre emergent for you until spring. Don't even think about it yet. Some experts do a tenacity treatment when seeding. I am not at that level yet. But I may get a battery back sprayer next.


Thanks! So; is my peat thickness too thin?


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Peat moss looks good. You can use a pre emergent 60 days after germination.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lbb091919 said:


> Peat moss looks good. You can use a pre emergent 60 days after germination.


Thanks!! So peat is just a "dusting"


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

Not sure where you are at, we were just hit hard with rain in Livonia.... (really hard, still coming down)
I have standing puddles, heavy layer of EZ straw as top coat. I see straw floating into the street ;( 
Good Luck!


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> lbb091919 said:
> 
> 
> > Peat moss looks good. You can use a pre emergent 60 days after germination.
> ...


No.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Looks good now keep is moist not wet. You said you had irrigation that makes it easier for you. Don't let the seed dry out. Hope we don't get hard rains to wash seed away. Now you have to develop a schedule for next year. All I see for this year is a fertilizer application in 5 or 6 weeks. That will depend of speed and strength of new seed growth . More people can chime in on that.
A sponsor here sells pre emergent. I use prodiamine. I just started and it gives me hope that next year I will make improvements in my turf. Your next battle will be weed control. 
Do my own is where I got the pre emergent. I couldn't find it cheaper anywhere else delivered. 50 lbs granular about 87 bucks if memory is correct.


----------



## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

I'm referring to the relatively large percentage of "other crop seed" covered by the string. Those seeds can be the type that will choke out your fescue and the type you cannot get rid of without extreme measures. Personally, I have not seen a percentage of "other crop seeds" that high on this forum.

Is that a new bag of seed? If so, it's not going to be the same mix you used in the backyard unless you bought both bags at the same time, from the same pallet. Seed mixes can have a completely different blend on every pallet. Live and learn.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> I'm referring to the relatively large percentage of "other crop seed" covered by the string. Those seeds can be the type that will choke out your fescue and the type you cannot get rid of without extreme measures. Personally, I have not seen a percentage of "other crop seeds" that high on this forum.
> 
> Is that a new bag of seed? If so, it's not going to be the same mix you used in the backyard unless you bought both bags at the same time, from the same pallet. Seed mixes can have a completely different blend on every pallet. Live and learn.


That was a new bag, as far as I know. I don't know if the hydro seeding guy that I got it from had it all come in on one pallet or not. I'm a details person so that could bug me. But it'll bug me in the future. For now, watering has begun!


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

This is turning into more of a reno than an overseed. You should probably be following the Cool Season Renovation guide instead of the overseed guide.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You may not have time for a pre-emergent application this Fall. Fall apps help control Poa Annua the following Spring. General rule is to get the application down before soil temps are consistently below 70F.

You'll start seeing germination in a few days, which puts you toward the end of October before pre-emergent can be applied. Likely too late. It isn't the end of the world.

Make sure to pick up some Prodiamine over the Winter and get your application down in the Spring as soil temps are nearing 55F (or when the Forsytha bloom).

Good luck!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lbb091919 said:


> This is turning into more of a reno than an overseed. You should probably be following the Cool Season Renovation guide instead of the overseed guide.


No doubt, way more than I expected. But, it seemed like time was of the essence so I went balls to the walls with the main points. Mow, power rake, clean, kill worms, seed, peat, water. If this doesn't work I'll probably double my costs and get sod next year.


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> No doubt, way more than I expected. But, it seemed like time was of the essence so I went balls to the walls with the main points. Mow, power rake, clean, kill worms, seed, peat, water. If this doesn't work I'll probably double my costs and get sod next year.


I know it felt like a lawncare 911 call...

You will just keep doing this every year and more... welcome to lawn care..


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I think it gets easier from here on. I am rooting for all who fight for green pristine turf. It is becoming an obsession a battle between me and crab grass oxalis and others such as ground ivy nutsedg. I didn't even get to funguscide education yet. I have added to my knowledge in the last 3 months here. At least now I can name the weedemy.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Factor said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > No doubt, way more than I expected. But, it seemed like time was of the essence so I went balls to the walls with the main points. Mow, power rake, clean, kill worms, seed, peat, water. If this doesn't work I'll probably double my costs and get sod next year.
> ...


This was absolutely a lawn 911 call. I would be floating in circles without my rudder, had you all not answered it. It's been 2 hours since I watered and no grass. What gives??

On a side note…I sat at the edge of my property line where it's so dry the clay is cracking. The sprinklers weren't hitting it at all so I adjusted. I noticed at 10 mins, it was still pretty dry. So I think I'll work the timing of it until the soil (term used loosely) doesn't look like a desert. I'll probably start running that zone 12 minutes, but might need upwards of 15-20 initially and then dial it back? But, that seems like a lot of water 3-4x per day.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

lbb091919 said:


> rijkmus said:
> 
> 
> > I see what you are saying. 4 seeds of poa per pound. There are over a million grass seed per pound. Am I missing something.
> ...


Here is my 'Mazama' sheet on the bag. It looks REALLY good.
PURITY: 99.08%
Germination rate: 89%
Weeds: 0.00
Other Crop: 0.00
Inert: 0.81 %
Tested: 04/21
Sell by: 07/22


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

PFTanx said:


> What gives??


A man in church.



> On a side note…I sat at the edge of my property line where it's so dry the clay is cracking. The sprinklers weren't hitting it at all so I adjusted. I noticed at 10 mins, it was still pretty dry. So I think I'll work the timing of it until the soil (term used loosely) doesn't look like a desert. I'll probably start running that zone 12 minutes, but might need upwards of 15-20 initially and then dial it back? But, that seems like a lot of water 3-4x per day.


Just Moist not wet, not puddling. Mine is 10 minutes every 6 hours.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Factor said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > What gives??
> ...


Ha ! 5 minutes every 3 hours for me (so 10a, 1p, 4p, 7p).This is for pre-sprout. You do not need more than 5 minutes to "keep M O I S T." But as consistent and regular as possible. I am in northern Michigan, but sun and a steady wind will work away. And we have Sandy loam.
Everyone is a bit different. But maaaan, 6 hours seems like a bit of a s t r e t c h to keep it _moist._


----------



## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

Well I am a bit of a miser.. and my wife is german.. Do what works for ya up there.. Maybe Daaammmppp is more like it..


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Do you do 5 minutes on 360degree and 180 degree heads?


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

I am happy that you did not experience the rain that we just did... Not sure how you would have taken it.... I do not think the peat moss would have held up. You dodged one today...

I came away with some bruises...but ready for round #2  today is day 5 since seeding

Your work is looking good!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

hobbyaddict1 said:


> I am happy that you did not experience the rain that we just did... Not sure how you would have taken it.... I do not think the peat moss would have held up. You dodged one today...
> 
> I came away with some bruises...but ready for round #2  today is day 5 since seeding
> 
> Your work is looking good!


Luckily, the storms developed just east of us (south of Ann Arbor). I woke up at 6am, checked the forecast, saw a 50/50 chance. Decided to roll the dice, because if it rained I'd have to do the power rake again. Got lucky!


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> hobbyaddict1 said:
> 
> 
> > I am happy that you did not experience the rain that we just did... Not sure how you would have taken it.... I do not think the peat moss would have held up. You dodged one today...
> ...


Where are you in relation to AA ? What County?
I think you guys get more "weather" blowing thru down there than we do (we are on Bay de Noc of Lake Michigan-some people consider our region part of Green Bay). We tend to miss many of the moisture fronts, which work in the WINTER.


----------



## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

A yard full of poa w the right HOC is still a nice lawn. ROFL


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

A new wrinkle folks. BIRDS! They're either eating worms/dead worms (I hope), or my grass seed. There were probably 2 dozen out there feasting. Do you think they're eating the seeds or worms?


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

thebmrust said:


> A yard full of poa w the right HOC is still a nice lawn. ROFL


You make your point. You educated us and pointed out the fact that there are better quality of seeds out there available. The op is a Newby like me that made decisions on a time basis. Predicting a yard full of poa is a little discouraging. Are we not here to help each other and learn. I personally thank you for your contribution to my knowledge. If you need to r o f l thats ok. If every decision I ever made in life I was correct I would not be here. We will learn from the mistakes that we make.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm very at peace with the weed seed I put down. I really do appreciate everyone's timely help. Now I have to deal with these birds……I like the idea of sprinkler system on every 5 mins for a few seconds but my irrigation system (b hyve controller) isn't that sophisticated.

Best I can tell they're Robbins.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ignore the birds. They might eat a few seeds but your threw down thousands. They can't eat it all and they are most likely eating the worms that are now in the surface from all the irrigation.

No need to worry.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

When I treated in the spring for insects. The starlings came and Feasted on the grubs that surfaced. Birds will eat some seed but you have most covered in peat.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

You can take some rebar or wooden spikes and place around the yard. Make some streamers with caution tape or anything ribbon like that will sway with the wind. CDs on fishing line work well too. Keeps birds at bay. Those do look like robins and they love worms and grubs so your likely good


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Are there a lot of worms in your soil. I have many and I think it is a sign of good ph. I am doing a soil test next March which will tell me what I need.


----------



## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

The dude asked for help because he was spending a boatload of money with no results. We tried to warn him that he should have spent an extra $20 for better seed. I could have bet money someone would come along, if not the OP, and get defensive. It always happens with noobs. In this case, it is Rijkmus....a noob posting incorrect info, misleading guidance, and then getting defensive when the correct information is posted.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> The dude asked for help because he was spending a boatload of money with no results. We tried to warn him that he should have spent an extra $20 for better seed. I could have bet money someone would come along, if not the OP, and get defensive. It always happens with noobs. In this case, it is Rijkmus....a noob posting incorrect info, misleading guidance, and then getting defensive when the correct information is posted.


Well, I never intended to stir up any ill will here. I sincerely appreciate the info and while my circumstances didn't allow me to pick up the top quality seed, I do intend to buy a bag for overseeing and spot repairs.

Also, I sat on my porch with some high powered Bono's and those birds are indeed eating those worms up! Mother Nature working in my favor for a change!

I'm going to do a separate post with a little journal of what has happened up to this point. It will become very clear I was at a gunfight with a knife (in terms of knowledge) and how I'm 5 figures into this GD lawn.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

PFTanx said:


> It will become very clear I was at a gunfight with a knife (in terms of knowledge) and how I'm 5 figures into this GD lawn.


You're on the right track now. You seem like a go-getter so regardless of the past, what seed you put down, etc. you're gonna be happy with these results I bet. You're properly armed now my friend.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Defensive Humm at first I looked at the certification of his seed and mine. It look simular to my bag which I think was good seed. I didn't see the noxious seed count. I then took a picture my bag and saw my seed had none. I am here to learn. I also failed at seed count per pound. I used blue which is 1.5 mil per. Not 225k. I am sorry for my failure. I do admit my fault. I learned from my mistakes. That is why I am here. For the first 60 years of my life I could care less about turf. Time will tell. I am not an expert for sure on poa but I think with people saying you are late for seeding so days mattered. The op has done a great job removing the eyesore and in the future he can learn how to address the other problems that exist. There are many other weeds in the ground already. I even assume that Robin's that injest poa seed can deposit poa seed in there feces. I think he is just trying to get to level 1. I thought the idea of having a thick turf was to make weed seed harder to touch the soil. He had no cover. No attitude here and I thank you for pointing out my mistakes which I own.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> rijkmus said:
> 
> 
> > The weather is a variable we have not control over. It is better to Spread the peat when everything is dry. I would watch the weather . I know I would be putting seed down that is the easy part. If it does rain you can address with additional seed if some seed moves. Then cover with peat when it dries out. You are doing good what seed did you get.
> ...


So we know this bag of seed wasn't the greatest. But, I'm going to order a bag this week for overseeing and spot repairs. I was wondering if I could get some help find a mixture from a reputable cultivator that closely matched this mix. Does anyone have a cultivator and a specific mixture they'd recommend?


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

'4th Millenium' TTF
'Amity' TTF
'Raptor III' TTF

YOU have tall fescue in that blend. The above-mentioned is some of thee best TTF you can buy. If you are okay with spreading seed with poa, it is obvious (no judgment) that you are not into Tier 1 lawn, so absolutely fine blade bluegrass would not be a priority for you. I sense that…so a really nice lawn that is not "Wrigley Field" quality is fine with you. The above seed varieties would satisfy 99% of home owners and have them falling at your curb in amazement.
Go for it, sir !


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> '4th Millenium' TTF
> 'Amity' TTF


@lawn-wolverine your analysis is correct! Green is the goal, knock down weeds as they come around and perhaps as time goes on over the years, I'll probably work towards the comisky park grass  perhaps I should update my signature to tier 1/2?

Since the ones you suggest are all fescue, should I end up repairing small patches, how would TTF alone look compared to the mix I put down which is fescue and rye?

Thanks!


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Glad to offer assist. The bag you showed had two perennial rye varieties, and one other type of grass that I identified as "tall fescue." 
Here is my "bias." I have had numerous lawns, and started several lawns involving tall fescue (and contended with that dastardly "K-31" tall fescue which I am convinced was developed in Hades itself). Anyway, I have firmly come to the conclusion that if you want perennial rye (preferably NORTH of the transition zone, e.g. Zone 7), DO perennial rye, because it has a, well, perennial rye look. I had disease problems with it in Virginia, but that's me. I find tall fescue, specifically these new third/fourth generation types to be, for all but the most finicky, Type 1 turf growers, to be dandy. Much finer bladed now, lower water requirements AND decent with shade. But I always felt that it developed into patches and looked "irregular" in a mix with different types (e.g. perennial rye or bluegrass).
I am just recommending, reading Y O U, what would look really, really good, AND serve you well.
I think a blend of three "tall fescue" that were top of the list with NTEP (which I am proud to say that I was on-board as a founding research member when Kevin Miller & Co. started that up in Beltsville Md. back in the 1980's), would serve you very well. Seeded fairly heavily and kept up, they do very well. Your perennial rye is in. I would not worry about it. It may or may not do well.
I think that superseedstore out of Buffalo has a 3 variety hybrid tall fescue mix, and it might contain the 3 that I mentioned earlier (and maybe a 4th type). 
Something to consider.

'4th Millenium' tall fescue
'Amity' tall fescue
'Raptor 3' tall fescue

These three would be great, but as you have ALREADY jumped into seeding, even one of these 3, in that order of choice, would improve things.
Tall fescue goes down at a higher rate (more) than bluegrass or even rye, so you do need more lbs.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> Glad to offer assist. The bag you showed had two perennial rye varieties, and one other type of grass that I identified as "tall fescue."
> Here is my "bias." I have had numerous lawns, and started several lawns involving tall fescue (and contended with that dastardly "K-31" tall fescue which I am convinced was developed in Hades itself). Anyway, I have firmly come to the conclusion that if you want perennial rye (preferably NORTH of the transition zone, e.g. Zone 7), DO perennial rye, because it has a, well, perennial rye look. I had disease problems with it in Virginia, but that's me. I find tall fescue, specifically these new third/fourth generation types to be, for all but the most finicky, Type 1 turf growers, to be dandy. Much finer bladed now, lower water requirements AND decent with shade. But I always felt that it developed into patches and looked "irregular" in a mix with different types (e.g. perennial rye or bluegrass).
> I am just recommending, reading Y O U, what would look really, really good, AND serve you well.
> I think a blend of three "tall fescue" that were top of the list with NTEP (which I am proud to say that I was on-board as a founding research member when Kevin Miller & Co. started that up in Beltsville Md. back in the 1980's), would serve you very well. Seeded fairly heavily and kept up, they do very well. Your perennial rye is in. I would not worry about it. It may or may not do well.
> ...


Awesome info @lawn-wolverine ! Thank you very much! I think this is the blend, and I'll have a 25# bag of it on the way this week!

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100003/ss1000-tall-fescue-blend


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Yes, perfect! I think this mix will put you in "Lawn Nirvana." Glad you liked the looks of it. I think it hits ALL the marks, and I see that you are down there around south-central Michigan. I was raised in Battle Creek. Great memories.
It gets toasty down there in summers and of course cold (just not U.P. cold) in winters, but the hybrid tall fescues are good for that climate mix. These varieties are great for color and disease-resistance. That superseedstore always has "fresh"/well in-date seed.
I am psyched to see how this proceeds as I'm sure others are ! So keep us up on progress.
Fingers crossed and &#128591;&#127995;.
All the best !


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

@lawn-wolverine that seed mix is on its way! Do you suppose, assuming what I put down this weekend "takes" will I be using it this year, so you suppose? Perhaps some mid October overseeing?


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Yea, that is indeed getting a bit "confusing." I wonder what rate you put that early bag (you showed us in picture) down at? If you think that it was at a conservative rate, I might "split" the broadcast (so the "good stuff" has the full season ADVANTAGE), and then see how it comes in, in two weeks and broadcast the rest, again…evenly, with perhaps attention to areas by hand that seemed to have come in thin.
This mix by sss in Buffalo is GREAT stuff. I wish you had an area untouched by the "other stuff" so you could objectively eye-ball it and say "Yea, this is really superior !"
Keep in mind that 0-1 year old grass is NOT going to be as dark, regardless of genetics, until that second year.
And one more option…the date on your new seed from sss will likely be rippin' fresh. Consequently, you COULD hold back, say 20% until late spring and offer it to areas that either washed out or possibly got some southern Michigan winter kill (storing "in a cool dry place").
Yes, you are a bit between a rock & a hard place. Nevertheless, there is nooo getting around great "genetics." I believe that the sss tall fescue mix you ordered will help pay dividends.
I hope I helped, rather than confuse things!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Progress!


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

The start of success


----------



## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

Looking good!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

So tomorrow is 7 days since I put the seed down. I wanted to check in with you all and see what you thought of the progress. How is this a weeks worth of watering?

Some patches still showing no germination. (Last pic)


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Looks good so far. Make sure that seed bed is staying moist throughout the day.

I'm not sure when those photos were taken, but some of the ground looks dry.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Yes, moist/moist/moist, but NO "tell-tale" puddling (floats/misplaces the seed).


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm still toying with the watering scheduling. As of now. I'm doing everything at 7am on a longer program, the driest areas at 10am, a quick watering at 12:30 and a longer program at 4:30. But, still drying out pretty quick. I'm also still toying with the sprinkler heads to try to get everything watered evenly but that's a bit more of a challenge. Some spots get hit with 3 different heads while the ones on the property line only get hit with the 360 degree heads so I run those a bit longer. Still tinkering!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

You will get the timing down. I assume that the irrigation system is brand new correct. I don't even want to mention that rain would help after hurricane IDA.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Yes, the irrigation is new. Installed in June. While parts of SE Michigan has seen torrential rains in the last 7 days, we've seen almost none in my area. Slight chance Tuesday. I'll keep it watered, best I can!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

As I survey my work and did some more sprinkler system fine tuning, there's one spot in particular I'm concerned about. In watching it the last couple days there are two issues;

1-It is the only somewhat sandy spot
2-It definitely want getting enough water

So; I'm wondering if this section is toast? I read from the super seed store that if they get wet and are allowed to dry, that's all she wrote for those seeds. I have my 50# of TTTF from them arriving next week. Would it be futile and a waste to try and get some of that spread? I'd say the seed bed is still good and I could probably hit most of it with a hand spreader and minimize impact on the small parts that are germinating. I'd also top it off with some extra peat to ensure moisture retention going forward.

Here's a pic.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I don't think it would hurt to add more seed when it arrives. I think there will be more germination in the bad area by next week. Especially If you get good weather up there. Time will tell but I am sure there will be some thin areas. There is also a way to seed by going out before snow and seeding. I have had some success at that. I tried to seed bare spots in the spring but success is very limited. So you will have more work to do. I give you an A for effort. I think by the time snow flies you can sit down and plan your lawn care schedule for next year.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

So, I have a lot of small mushrooms growing in the newly seeded area. I assume it's to be expected since it's constantly moist. But, should I be in the lookout for anything since these are now growing? Having dealt with PB, I'm concerned a bit. I could put down some Scott's disease ex?


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I just pick the mushrooms when I see them pop up. I don't think you should walk on the new grass yet. One mistake that I keep making is trying to do to much. I don't think the mushrooms are a major problem unless they get out of control. At some point you will be able to reduce watering and that will help also. I would be cautious about putting the scott disease product down as your grass young.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I just pick the mushrooms when I see them pop up. I don't think you should walk on the new grass yet. One mistake that I keep making is trying to do to much. I don't think the mushrooms are a major problem unless they get out of control. At some point you will be able to reduce watering and that will help also. I would be cautious about putting the scott disease product down as your grass young.


THIS raises a good question. I wonder just how soon I could mow my OVERSEEDED KBG ?
The existing grass is about 4" tall (overseeded 15 days ago now). They are "in there." Worried about them being smothered.
Could I walk on (as in mow only) and mow at say 2.5" ?


----------



## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

Yes, you should mow it now. The seedlings will be ok. Just go slow and be careful of your turns.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Fraust said:


> Yes, you should mow it now. The seedlings will be ok. Just go slow and be careful of your turns.


Thanks. I will be able to mow "beyond" the seedling area (to make turns) and hoping that my wimpy electric EGO mower will finally be an advantage (very lightweight). I can empty the grass bag frequently as well in order to reduce weight.
Kind of excited to do a first mow since overseeding 15 days ago. As I said, the older existing grass is about 3.5" tall now.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Good question, was wondering the same. The existing grass is getting thick, maybe only 2.5-3" but in a week I won't have much of a choice but to mow. Hopefully it won't grow much more than another inch, but hate to risk damaging seedlings.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Good question, was wondering the same. The existing grass is getting thick, maybe only 2.5-3" but in a week I won't have much of a choice but to mow. Hopefully it won't grow much more than another inch, but hate to risk damaging seedlings.


Right ! Tricky on when exactly safe and efficient to mow.
All this work…don't wanna mess it up now !


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > Good question, was wondering the same. The existing grass is getting thick, maybe only 2.5-3" but in a week I won't have much of a choice but to mow. Hopefully it won't grow much more than another inch, but hate to risk damaging seedlings.
> ...


Well, what say you @lawn-wolverine ? You've had some sound advice in this thread, curious to know your thoughts.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Just mowed my 15-day 'Midnight'/'Bewitched' at 3". I think it was a successful first mow…made sure to not "turn around" on/in the 2" seedlings.
&#128077;


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Nice! I think plan is to mow Saturday, that would be 14 days, I also have a very light electric ego I'll use w/bagger. Once that's done I'll do one final overseeding in the thin spots, more peat in those areas, water and cross my fingers.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Nice! I think plan is to mow Saturday, that would be 14 days, I also have a very light electric ego I'll use w/bagger. Once that's done I'll do one final overseeding of the day the thin spots, more peat in those areas, water and cross my fingers.


Yes. Good job, sir! And I decided to absolutely minimize the weight (my EGO already light of course) on the grass by emptying the bag every four passes.
As my lawn was already in fairly respectable shape, I have yet to be able to determine how "worthwhile" thus overseed has been. Overall look of improvement (though the new grass obviously has that "new Spring green tone").
I do not have that eye-opening smack-you-in-the-face improvement, it not being a complete renovation, but again, my issue was gaining some increase of "uniformity" (too much of a patchwork quilt look of too many varieties of grass- i.e. KBG, fine fescue, some leftover perennial rye). Not solved, but improved. 
But again, only 15 days from "seed down."
Fingers crossed…hoping to continue to see improvement on this front lawn WHILE waiting for the backyard (only 4.5 hours of sun)to pop💥with 100% seeding of 'Mazama' KBG. (only 5 days seed down).


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Well folks, 14 days later here's an update. Some spots growing in nice, others thin, others no germination. I gave it its first cut since I seeded 2 weeks ago and then reseeded with my primo mix from the super seed store. I know I'm playing with fire now, I may have put it down too late, but I'm a gambler like that.

I noticed in the area devoid of germination, with the help of an additional layer of peat; there simply isn't enough water hitting that spot. I tried to adjust the rain bird 5000s but I think I made it worse. I've been trying to narrow its range to focus more on the dry area, but I just can't figure it out. I'll have to watch some more YouTube videos on it.

Here are some pics. I flooded a couple spots becuase I ran the sprinkler too long while fine tuning. Another issue is the flooded spots get hit by 3 zones. I can't quite find the balance of avoiding those spots and making sure the rest of the lawn gets watered.

Off to study up on adjusting rain bird 5000s!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Give it some time it obviously will get better. Every lawn has it issues some parts always grow better than others. Just keep learning and the weather is cooperating so far.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Looks good. Remember you can change nozzles for less flow, you can limit the radius so they dont overlap, you can also change spray to more fine droplets and reduce the distance to dial it in better


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmythegreek said:


> Looks good. Remember you can change nozzles for less flow, you can limit the radius so they dont overlap, you can also change spray to more fine droplets and reduce the distance to dial it in better


@jimmythegreek that's all the stuff I'm toying with now. Not quite sure what I'm doing, but the smaller nozzle makes sense, perhaps for my purposes. Although I did screw the nozzle in to limit length of spray.


----------



## hobbyaddict1 (Aug 26, 2021)

Your grass is looking great!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Not bad. Dropped 50 more pounds of tttf from SS on Sunday. Had cut it down to about 2.5" and hoped some nee seed would germinate before the existing grass ran wild. Not sure It'll work but, Here's hopin! :bandit:


----------



## Coolseason7b (Aug 14, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> Not bad. Dropped 50 more pounds of tttf from SS on Sunday. Had cut it down to about 2.5" and hoped some nee seed would germinate before the existing grass ran wild. Not sure It'll work but, Here's hopin! :bandit:


Was the 50lbs you put down ss1000? Looks great!


----------



## Bikethrow (May 3, 2021)

All of the above with the addition of- Are you still watering every day after the seedlings matured a bit? That could be the cause of the Pythium blight. Once germinated dial back on that water. Water every day will certainly cause one disease or another.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Coolseason7b said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > Not bad. Dropped 50 more pounds of tttf from SS on Sunday. Had cut it down to about 2.5" and hoped some nee seed would germinate before the existing grass ran wild. Not sure It'll work but, Here's hopin! :bandit:
> ...


Yep, the second 50#s was ss1000. On the first seeding, I split 50 # around the entire lawn, about 15k sq/ft. The second seeding with the ss1000 was just this section (some more to the left) and is probably about 7500 sq ft.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Bikethrow said:


> All of the above with the addition of- Are you still watering every day after the seedlings matured a bit? That could be the cause of the Pythium blight. Once germinated dial back on that water. Water every day will certainly cause one disease or another.


I am, and that would probably be why I had PB the first time. Putting down this second round of seed maybe wasn't a great idea. Some germinating has begun, but not everywhere. I think I'll wait to mow until the weekend. Since I'm trying to get this stuff germinating, I feel the need to keep watering, but I risk PB again.

All that being said, I have 30 pounds of Scott's disease ex ready for spreading. Might be a good idea since I need to keep watering for the ss1000.


----------



## Bikethrow (May 3, 2021)

I'm 34 days post germination and had pythium show up as well. I hit it with some eagle 20EW and that stoped it fast. I learned the hard way as well to back off the water.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

@Bikethrow i think I'm going to prepare myself for PB and other fungi, but I read the label for eagle 20EW and Pythium isn't listed as a target fungus with this. Did you have something else, or did you add some subdue?

Also, being a noob and not knowing how fungi work, how much of a threat is this, this time of year up in Michigan. I have moisture, but do they need hot weather? I recall someone mentioning hot/humid temp spikes as being a key element.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Eagle 20EW for pythium?


----------



## Bikethrow (May 3, 2021)

@g-man All I had and it worked quite fast actually.


----------



## Bikethrow (May 3, 2021)

@g-man I did get to it within a day of it starting mind you. New reno so I was watching it like a kettle to boil lol…Lost some of my new KBG but not much.


----------



## Bikethrow (May 3, 2021)

@PFTanx In my experience, yes it thrives in humid weather. I'm in Ontario and we had an extreme heat wave that lasted 2 weeks.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Edit:

Timely discussion, how do you differentiate between PB and just "webs"? Now, any time I see a web of any sort in the grass, I think PB. But, if I recall, PB had a gray/Smokey color to it. My untrained eye automatically jumps to Pb! Picture attached.

Well, I've been "scared straight" no Pythium that I can see, but I'll keep a close eye and oddly enough, I was able to get subdue maxx on Amazon with same day delivery. Tomorrow I mow and do a preventative app of subdue maxx!

Of note regarding subdue maxx it says " Subdue Maxx provides outstanding control when applied preventively as conditions become favorable for Pythium development. Preventive application should be made when temperatures range from 20°C - 30°C and relative humidity is approximately 90%."

Nowhere near 90% so I wonder if it's even worth it at this point in the game?


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

PB looks more like a cotton ball stretched over the blades. I don't see that in the pics.


----------



## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

I always wondered/reacted the same way to webs, until I experienced a real fungal outbreak first hand. The mycelium looks genuinely different (as mentioned, think a cotton ball or cotton candy) and you'll know it when/if you see it.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

SCOTT's Disease X is the only thing I use because it is convenient, not cost-prohibitive, and fits through my Scotts spreader. 
If it does not work on whatever "comes down the pike" I'll be in great peril.
Have you guys had experience…success with the Disease-X. ?


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> SCOTT's Disease X is the only thing I use because it is convenient, not cost-prohibitive, and fits through my Scotts spreader.
> If it does not work on whatever "comes down the pike" I'll be in great peril.
> Have you guys had experience…success with the Disease-X. ?


That's what I've been using too, but people warn me of building up resistance by using it and over…


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > SCOTT's Disease X is the only thing I use because it is convenient, not cost-prohibitive, and fits through my Scotts spreader.
> ...


Yes, I have heard that as well. Hmmm, well, I have only used the SCOTTS Disease-X for THIS 
late-summer>>early fall 2021, during the heavy watering due to major overseeding project (plus spot renovation).
Fingers crossed, this will be my last "water binge" in the next 2-3 years.😎


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Much to my chagrin, I got a mow in. I set it at 4 on the EGO push mower and treaded as lightly as possible. It's come a long way since I started this thread a few weeks back! It's not without its issues, there are still thin spots and low/chronically wet spots that will need to be dealt with over time. Now that I took a bit off the top, hopefully that SS1000 mix will REALLY thrive.

Also got the final application for the year of Disease-Ex down. All this talk about PB, and having lived through it compelled me to do it.

Also, yesterday in the healthy/established part of the lawn, I sprayed tenacity as I'm seeing a few weeds pop up in there. The almost established part of the front portion of the lawn has quite a bit more crabgrass popping up, but since the SS1000 just now started germinating, I may hold off. 




In the view from above, you can see the real problem areas. The spot on the left is due to poor sprinkler head placement. I just put a rainbird 5000+ there and turned it off completely while I figure out how to deal with it. Will probably rake, replant and moss, but might need a tiny bit of straw since the yard tends to drain down that hill.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> A picture is worth 1000 words. It's looking worse by the day. I almost wonder if it could be the top soil we used? Although it's growing beautifully in other parts of yard with same soil…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You need to take IMMEDIATE action on those armyworm grubs. Like yesterday.
Nuke the suckers with that 24 hour Bayer on heavy rate and then water VERY WELL (but not to the point of runoff). 
Do it now.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

This is a 9 page thread, so you probably missed the post that said I ran to tractor supply and bought $75 worth of Bifintherin and nuked those suckers!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I am getting confused to. Everything looks good except a few bad spots and weeds. Correct.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I am getting confused to. Everything looks good except a few bad spots and weeds. Correct.


Yeah, I'm not sure what happened there, but the post @lawn-wolverine replied to was early into this thread. I posted a couple posts up with today's update and pics.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Looks great. You took advice very well amd jumped right into fixing things up. I think your well om your way, amd almost ready to spoon feed if you plan on it. Depending on the weeds you may be better off with quinclorac. Tenacity is great at seed down, otherwise use it to light up weeds white to attack with other means. Great job so far you already have stripes!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

@jimmythegreek tell me more about the benefits of quinclorac vs the tenacity? Is one harder on new seedlings than the other? What about walking on the lawn to spread it? Today, I felt like I was setting the lawn back a bit by mowing/walking on the new seedlings but seemed like a necessary evil.

At the same time I feel the need to protect those new seedlings from fungus (Scott's disease ex) and by being choked out by weeds (tbd).

Suggestions?


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I think you may be trying too hard. It took me all summer of spot treatments to figure out how to best use quinclorac for spot treatments. Weather is looking good. You may get 4 or more weeks good growth. I know what you have invested but you are killing weeds that are going to die over winter. Now is not a time to interrupt or slow growth and development of the new seed sprouts. This is going to end soon and you will be able to rest access and plan for next springs arrival.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I think you may be trying too hard.


I do that often. I'll just let it ride!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

Just mowed I have rust been gone for two days. I am going to figure this out someday. Not the picture I thought it would look like from 3 weeks ago. I am not best on the block anymore. My kids let me know it to.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I'm pretty distraught right now. We had a light rain and my French drain isn't taking water. No clue why. It's only been in the ground for a couple months and it passed a torrential rain test a couple times. Now, I've got ponding water and it could kill off the grass planted in that area. Don't know what to do anymore. This drainage stuff is a nightmare. I feel so defeated. One step forward 2 steps back. Grass is growing beautifully with your guidance, drainage issue is trying to kill it.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

The low spot isn't going anywhere. I think that there are things you can do to help it drain. But that would be next season. Stay on course get what growth you can. I started using a leaf blower to help dry my tomatoes and peppers. Hopefully it drains quickly. I have wet spots in my yard and mature grass I think can deal with the moisture problem better. I don't know what drains or where they were placed but assume that accounted for a major part of your cost upfront. Don't get discouraged . This is an ongoing process.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

What type of drain setup do you have? I dont see a catch basis in the pic


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmythegreek said:


> What type of drain setup do you have? I dont see a catch basis in the pic


French drain, following the French drain mans methods and materials as seen on YouTube. Here's a pic of it, that was my next journal update.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^thats not very clear. Which way the water should flow? It looks like the 90 degree turn is the lowest point and the water will just collect there.

I'm moving this thread to the Journal side


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Yeah, can't catch the slope but it is sloped correctly in the trench. It flows away from the house toward the road and drains to daylight in the drainage ditch. The dirt on top is what settled and recreated a low spot. Luckily, overnight the low spot drained but I can already tell it's not moving water as efficiently. Picture of the problem area attached. Always has been. If you look at my lawn journal you'll see from the very get go, it's been a major issue all thanks to a lazy builder.


----------



## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

For what it's worth - french drains don't need a catch basin as the pipe collects water through the perforations.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Allan-00 said:


> For what it's worth - french drains don't need a catch basin as the pipe collects water through the perforations.


That's right. And thus no catch basin in this system. Sorry if I wasn't clear as to why there wasn't one.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

For what it's worth I did hardscape and pools for years. I cringe when I see corrugated pipe. The nice way to do that would have been to use sdr35 perf pipe and hard pipe all that with proper pitch and a much larger trench and stone fill. You also have the ability to add cleanouts we hid them under irrigation lids. If you look at the specs on corrugated pipe it needs ALOT of gravel surrounding it for strength. Without the proper fabric wrapping it all up silt will clog the fabric. Hopefully your drains clear up amd take care of the water. You came a long way and have a nice result of hard work. I know the drainage wasnt cheap he had 2 machines on the job.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

I just have to say that this forum continues to be AWESOME!! 
So much practical expertise.
Hang in there PFTanx.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I am optimistic that it will work out. You are just finding out what is going on with all the new systems. You have to learn how your yard reacts to the new drains. I hope those drains are deep. I have one and it requires extra care. You will find out next summer in the heat if that's the case. I am old 67 and can not do the amount of work you put in. When you get about my age you will have it figured out. I started too late.I see other battles ahead for you. I call it the border wars. It is a battle against all the weed seed blown across the street from other people's yards. You will see where you are at when the grass stop growing. The later the better.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

jimmythegreek said:


> For what it's worth I did hardscape and pools for years. I cringe when I see corrugated pipe. The nice way to do that would have been to use sdr35 perf pipe and hard pipe all that with proper pitch and a much larger trench and stone fill. You also have the ability to add cleanouts we hid them under irrigation lids. If you look at the specs on corrugated pipe it needs ALOT of gravel surrounding it for strength. Without the proper fabric wrapping it all up silt will clog the fabric. Hopefully your drains clear up amd take care of the water. You came a long way and have a nice result of hard work. I know the drainage wasnt cheap he had 2 machines on the job.


Something I learned in the drainage world is that corrugated vs solid pipe is VERY highly debated. I watched 100 hours or more of The French drain Man on YouTube. He cringes at PVC for yard dewatering. Me? I don't know, but I bought all of his materials (super strong corrugated pipe with slots 360 deg around), washed round rock and his double punched geotextile fabric. I have no doubt about the quality of his materials, but I do have doubts about the installation (done at my direction/design).

Check out The French Drain man on YouTube. It's oddly addicting.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I am optimistic that it will work out. You are just finding out what is going on with all the new systems. You have to learn how your yard reacts to the new drains. I hope those drains are deep. I have one and it requires extra care. You will find out next summer in the heat if that's the case. I am old 67 and can not do the amount of work you put in. When you get about my age you will have it figured out. I started too late.I see other battles ahead for you. I call it the border wars. It is a battle against all the weed seed blown across the street from other people's yards. You will see where you are at when the grass stop growing. The later the better.


Luckily, it drained overnight. Flood warnings starting tonight through end of week, so we will really see how much this thing slowed down.


----------



## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

What I know is all soilnisnt alike. What works in his may not work in yours. Corrugated is an easier way and more forgiving. Hard pipe you can control amd pitch with cleanoits, we use septic fabric that comes in huge rolls in 12' widths. Your stone surround that is the drainage field relies in being clean to let water collect amd drain. If it gets silted you have a buried pipe with dirt and rock around it. I have no doubt he knows his stuff. I have 3 sump pits in my yard with hundreds of feet of hard pipe and retaining walls so I could build my pool.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Just had 48 hours of rain totally got 4.5 inches. I was able to mow this evening after a day of sun and drying out. I guess the French drain is working, albeit a little slower than when I initially put it in. Still a few tweaks to do on it still. That area was a bit soft, and I can see grass is struggling to grow, but I'm sure over the course of another year or two it'll fill in. Here's the progress after a mow this evening after 48 hours of rain.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

The yard looks 100 times better. The weather is always a factor. I hope for a mild winter. But that will mean we are still mowing in late November. I'll take that and you will need some rest by then.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> The yard looks 100 times better. The weather is always a factor. I hope for a mild winter. But that will mean we are still mowing in late November. I'll take that and you will need some rest by then.


Thanks! The grass is still "patchy", can still see plenty of dirt in areas. But, I'm sure as the next year or two goes on, it'll fill in and look great! Thanks for the guidance all! I'll continue to update.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Next week will be 4 weeks after the SECOND seeding. Grass from the first is pretty well established and the seed from the second is growing nicely, but noticeably thinner (it's 3 weeks younger than first seeding). The lawns been mowed 3 times now.

So, I'm wondering if should do some starter fert next week, at the 4 week mark. I'll worry about weeds next year, I don't want to do too much now. If a first week of oct fert would be beneficial I'll do it, otherwise, I'll keep it mowed and add some stuff next year.

Only REAL concern with doing fert is that 7 week old grass will choke out 4 week old grass (and that's the primo stuff!).


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

What type of fertilizer are you considering spoon feed or granular.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> What type of fertilizer are you considering spoon feed or granular.


Nothing fancy. Probably Scott's or Lesco starter fert in granular form.


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I am a Newby but stay away from the scotts triple action with haltz. I got some burn from an application. No problems from the regular scotts that will be my last feeding. Maybe some one will chime in that knows more than us. You have come too far to mess up now.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I am a Newby but stay away from the scotts triple action with haltz. I got some burn from an application. No problems from the regular scotts that will be my last feeding. Maybe some one will chime in that knows more than us. You have come too far to mess up now.


I agree. Which is why I'm leaning towards doing nothing except mowing.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

I can't believe this, but the army worms are back! I noticed a small area of grass dying near our drainage ditch. I'm very dialed in to these things now, luckily.

I inspected very closely and saw something that resembled army worms, albeit smaller and greener than the ones from the original infestation. But, since I bought a big bottle of bifenthrin, I decided to give the lawn a spray after I mowed today. Just checked about 2 hours after spraying and they're definitely coming out of the ground again, in the form that I recognize. I sprayed the entire front lawn as a precaution but so far I've only seen them in this area.

I just can't believe they've come back (maybe they never left), since they aren't common in southeast Michigan. Glad I know how to handle those nasty MFers now!

Pictures attached of dying grass area, worms that crawled out into road to die after I spray and todays fresh cut lawn.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Never saw "defiant" armyworms!&#129315;


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> Never saw "defiant" armyworms!🤣


🤦🏻‍♂️Fixed


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Never saw "defiant" armyworms!🤣
> ...


👍good man !


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

Did a mow today, probably one more application of urea on Friday and a couple more moss for the season. Cutting back watering and adding fert really took this to the next level! Overall, very happy!


----------



## livt0ride (Jan 10, 2021)

Nice work!


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I think you worked hard and commend your for your effort. Great job.


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

livt0ride said:


> Nice work!


Thanks!


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

rijkmus said:


> I think you worked hard and commend your for your effort. Great job.


Literally couldn't have done it without yalls guidance.


----------



## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

PFTanx said:


> rijkmus said:
> 
> 
> > I think you worked hard and commend your for your effort. Great job.
> ...


🤣QUESTION: "What is the plural for ya'll ?"

Why "All ya'll" of course !


----------



## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

lawn-wolverine said:


> PFTanx said:
> 
> 
> > rijkmus said:
> ...


We say all yinns around here.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

rijkmus said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > PFTanx said:
> ...


In my area, some tend to say "yoos", but I can't bring myself to say it. I say "you all", because half my family is from VA.

I went to school in PA, and they said "youins". How many variations are there?


----------



## PFTanx (Aug 13, 2021)

It's been a while....long time no talk. Just wanted to update here as to how my lawn is going so far this year. It's not without it's issues; it's still very hungry and often starts to yellow about 3-4 weeks after a Fert application. Having a local guy do my weed and feed; former golf Course super and knows his stuff. He's been exceptionally helpful and knows what he's doing. He handles the Fert and weeds, I've been handling the other misc issues. A few bare spots, but not too noticeable. Just getting over some red thread. I had applied a preventative amount of Scotts Disease-Ex, and the red thread found it's way to my lawn still. Put down some propiconazole a few days ago. Hoping that does the trick. The spots which were mostly brown have defintely gone red since I applied that, perhaps that's the "end stage" of this particular fungus?


----------

