# STL's Backyard Transition Zone KBG Renovation



## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Hey guys! I'm documenting my 2018 backyard Kentucky bluegrass renovation. I live in the St. Louis area and am among the other members who fight the good fight of managing kbg in the transition zone.

I first picked up the lawn hobby after moving to a new home in 2016. The house was the rundown one of the neighborhood and was completely redone before we bought it. The property was still a bit of a mess though and I've slowly been making it nicer here and there.



In the fall of 2016, two weeks after I moved in, I renovated the front to turf type tall fescue and it turned out well.

Spring 2017:




August, 2018:


I read more threads over at ATY and decided to take the kbg plunge and renovated the side yard with bewitched, mazama, and blue velvet. It also turned out great and is going very well in its first season and our hot summers.



That leads me to this renovation and my pièce de résistance, the backyard. It was mainly weeds with some tall fescue and fine fescue mixed in.



Among the improvements, I took down some. unpleasant pines, silver maples, and a black walnut.



I've since added a new fence and built my kids a play fort around my big beautiful redbud.





I'm still working on landscaping, irrigation, and adding a fire pit.

Since moving in to this house my family has increased by quite a bit when we had our twins last fall. The twin boys were "supposed to" be one girl. Lol. We'll likely move again in a couple years to a bigger house. (Yay! More renos!) These guys are great, but they sure make finding time for working in the yard challenging! I'm typically left to running "night ops" with my headlamp after they go to bed to get my lawn stuff done. And, yes, my neighbors think I'm crazy. My wife has come to accept it though.



I killed the yard in late July and gearing up towards seed down in the next few weeks. I'm going with primarily the same blend as my side yard, bewitched, mazama, and blue velvet.

More pics and updates to follow...


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Schedule and notes:

07.21.18 - Sprayed glyphosate
07.25.18 - Bag mowed at 2.25 with the Timemaster 
07.26.18 - Rented a mower and scalped at second lowest setting
07.28.18 - Applied 2#/m TSP and soil conditioner
07.30.18 - Triple pass aeration


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Since my family has recently grown, I'm likely going to be moving again in a couple years. I've been thinking that this is a good opportunity to do some kbg cultivar testing. I really like the blend in my side yard, but the lack of uniformity between mowing has me seriously thinking about a monostand for my next lawn.

As such, I planted 4' x 8' test plots of (back to front) Mazama, Bewitched, Blue Velvet, Midnight, and NuGlade.



I also have test plots of Bewitched (top) and Mazama (bottom) under my red bud to see how they perform in dappled shade.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

STL, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread as I'm running a few of my own tests with KBG this Fall. I'm in the transition zone further south of you - North Arkansas. How did your side yard do this past year?


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Nice to see another stl member doing kbg. I did the backyard last year. The front yard is getting done this year with midnight, award, and bewitched. @bgillroy is another stl guy doing kbg. What date you shooting for seed down,


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

I will donate some sod quality midnight from sss. How can i get your address? I will be planting midnight, bewitched and mazama on sat. I feel for you guys that are trying to grow kbg in the transition zone.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish honestly, I was just hoping to limp it through the summer, but it's doing great. Much better than expected. It gets varying degrees of shade and everything seems to do better around here with at least some shade. The part that gets the most sun did show beginning signs of stress a few times, but we also regularly get temps in the upper 90s and triple digits a couple times. It recovered well after irrigation. I'm a bit nervous though about my backyard since about half or a bit more gets all day full sun.

And please share your kbg testing. Definitely interested in seeing that too.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Budstl awesome! I'm following your thread and interested to see how it goes.

I was originally going to break up the seed down days into two sections, the shadier section of the yard on August 4 and the other on August 25, but I ran into delays with my irrigation supplies and actually recently threw my back out popping wheelies on my 6 year old's bike lol. That was a reminder that I'm not as young as I used to be! I'm going to have to let it recover a bit before I can get back at it. My plan is asap as soon as I can.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim Great! Thank you! I'll PM you my address.

My wife and I have some family in Iowa and usually get up there once a year. We enjoy it very much.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

Sweet! I'll be following along as well. I just mowed on my 2nd lowest setting tonight and applied the third (hopefully final) round of glypho. Hoping to put seed down in about two weeks!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I was going to do test plots too. But now I'm just doing Bewitched mono. I could not find good pictures of each cultivar in a lawn to compare them.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@bgillroy Awesome! Good luck and I'll be following yours as well!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@g-man Yeah, I think bewitched is going to be tough to beat for a monostand. I'm rooting for mazama to really shine and show off it's good ntep ratings though. On paper, it has the potential to be as good as, or maybe even better than, bewitched. We shall see!


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

I would suggest reading fusebox7 reno post as he used mazama and seemed to be happy with it. I think he also had bewitched and award in his mix also.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim Yep! I was following @fusebox7 original thread on ATY and found his here too. We compared some notes on growth rates we've observed with mazama, which appears that it may be growing much faster than the others in my lawn's blend.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That was one of the reasons I chose bewitched. With reel low mowing, slow grow is better.


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

Nice to see more and more of us around here, I'll be following you reno as well! @STL what will be your HOC and seeding date? I'm leaning towards Aug 31.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@NoslracNevok thanks! Agreed, it's great seeing all the folks in our area!

HOC is 3.25 currently. I was up to 4.25 for a while with how fast it was growing and to help limit stress, but I like the way it looks better a bit lower and it's held up just as well.

Seed down date is still a bit up in the air. I need to finish up my irrigation install and a few other prep items first. I'm breaking seeding up into two sections and hopeful for this weekend on the first part and the following weekend or end of August on the second.

To answer your other question, I do preventative fungicide apps primarily for summer patch based on guidance from Rutgers. I rotate azoxystrobin, propiconazole, and penthiopyrad.


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## Tim H (May 31, 2018)

Looking forward to seeing how these different plots of KBG do.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Tim H cool, yeah me too! I'm starting to get the monostand inch and it'll be nice to see how each cultivar performs.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Bewitched, Mazama, Blue Velvet seed at ~2.3#/m, tenacity at 4oz/acre rate, homemade soil conditioner, TSP, and milo are down in the shadey half of the yard! I still need to top dress though but will have to do that later.

I made some 8' x 4' test plots of Bewitched and Mazama to see how they compare in dappled shade. I'll have more test plots in the full sun section as well.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

Yes! This thread should be a good follow in the coming weeks.

My whole front is dead and burned and I'm moving dirt to level everything out. My wife thinks I'm crazy, so do the neighbors.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

I will be watching as i used both cultivars in my reno. Thanks for doing the testing.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@bgillroy I saw your post on burning the dead grass. That would have saved me a bunch of time! Takes "crazy" up a level too! Win-win. Lol


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim I got the midnight seed the other day. Thanks again for that!


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

STL said:


> @bgillroy I saw your post on burning the dead grass. That would have saved me a bunch of time! Takes "crazy" up a level too! Win-win. Lol


I sprayed control lines with the hose before I lit each section. If anybody questioned me, I could point to the crisp grid of unburned grass to prove I was in control. It would have gotten out of hand otherwise, big fire is intimidating.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@bgillroy how big was the fire?


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

I probably did strips of 5ft wide in the main yard. But the side yard is 10ft so I sprayed the house with water and let er rip. The flames were only 12 inches tall, but when the breeze picked up they'd roar and start moving pretty quickly! I just burned from one end to the other so it wasn't all on fire at the same time.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@bgillroy gotcha!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I ran a "night op" last night and got about half of the topdressing down. Then we got a decent amount of rain overnight. No obvious signs of washout, like carved out rivers and such, but I can hardly see any seed in the area I haven't topdressed yet!!

I'm hoping it got pushed into the soil by the rain... Seems logical right?? I'll need to look closer when I have time.

Annnnnd, right on cue, let the worrying begin!


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

We got some of that weather last night too. I was out no telling how many times between showers and thunderstorms checking. Looks like a week of solid sunshine for us here on the Arkansas Missouri border!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I think I'm OK overall. I top dress with compost partly to help with washout risk since it tends to stay put in all but very heavy rain. Still a bit nervous that I couldn't really see much seed in the part I haven't top dressed, but I'm not sure where it could have gone since I didn't have much puddling or run off. So, I'm staying the course...

Still need to prep the sunny half of the yard for seeding this weekend and get some pots going. I only get a few weeks of keeping the kids off the lawn, so I'm sure I'll need them in some spots.

I also think my weed pressure will be pretty high since there's probably a million year seed bank from all the weeds that were back there. Hopefully a few Tenacity apps will take care of all that.

@drenglish yeah, I was too. I re routed a downspout and the area where it empties got pretty flooded. There is an irrigation trench on the edge of my backyard that I hadn't filled in yet and it saved my @ss by catching the excess runoff before it could get to my seedbed. I got lucky on that one!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Ended up with some washout today after getting like 1.5" this morning. Not too terrible, but it's a little more than I expected. A nice river ran through it in the worst part and the compost got pushed into little wavy piles scattered throughout. I'm going to get out there tomorrow and clean it up.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

It doesn't look too bad though. I'm afraid at this point with my Reno if I move any top dressing that shifts from rain I'll disturb hidden seedlings. We had the same seed down date. Nice test pots back there too.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

RATS!!!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish yeah, not too bad. I'm going to try and not mess with the bottom layer too much but I want to spread out the little piles so it's not too thick.

I'll tell ya, those 8 pots have been through the ringer and back. I planted them last year and burned the crap out of them with too much N. Then my twins were born so they got neglected until this spring. They survived being out all winter and our January was cold, a few days with highs in the single digits and teens. I nursed them back to health and got them back on bottom watering and they're doing great again. They need a hair cut though. They'll end up planted in the bare spots this fall.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL It's good to hear that the pots can be tough too. Did you use a seed mix or have individual pots for each type of bluegrass? I used a mix of topsoil and potting soil for mine, so far so good but the top soil sure makes the 9" pots heavy. Did you use potting soil or try to match your soil profile?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish I have two pots each of Mazama, Bewitched, Blue Velvet, and the blend. Unfortunately, I have three mystery pots where the tag fell off at some point though. And yes, they are extremely tough.

I used bagged top soil with some compost mixed in. Nearly all the compost got broken down though and it reduced by a few inches. I would go straight native.soil, or second choice straight bagged soil, next time if I could swing it. They are definitely a pain to move around!

How are you watering yours? Have you looked into bottom watering?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish here's the bottom watering concept if you're interested. This will be my third year doing it and highly recommend it. It works very well and is easier than top watering. It gets the roots deep too. Wish I could bottom water my lawn! Lol

https://aroundtheyard.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=162:growing-sod-in-pots&catid=9&Itemid=117


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL I am currently top watering. I bet the bottom watering would be better for the grass. I just need to find a large enough basin....maybe those plastic Rubbermaid's that are meant for going under beds. I'm pretty excited about the pots for just the experimental value in them. Have you been able to identify differences in the pots like color difference/growth rate/etc?

A question back on track with your Reno, are you planning on weekly spoon feeding the bluegrass this Fall or more of a monthly plan?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish weekly spoon feeding for me. I may be a bit more aggressive than I would normally want to be. My kids will be back out there probably somewhere in the 30-45 day range, so it'll need to really get moving around that time to handle that. @HoosierLawnGnome played volleyball (!) on a reno at like day 35 and it's turned out great, so I think I'll be alright. That would give me a heart attack though!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

And we have germination!


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

Alright! :thumbup: Let the games begin!


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Congratulations on the new babies, you will be mowing within a week.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Congrats @STL take many photos. They grow up so fast.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Thanks guys!

I fixed the spot where the water cut through my reno, but never got to spread out most of the little piles of compost. Some are a little thick for my liking but I'm guessing it'll be fine though.

It's supposed to be hot AF the next couple days. It was 95 today. Forecasted for 97 tomorrow, 95 Monday, and 95 Tuesday before finally cooling back off into the 80s on Wednesday. I added an extra irrigation cycle to the program.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Keep a eye on that peat moss so it doesn't smother the seed . Im not sure how thick is to thick but am thinking any thing over 1 inch could cause problems.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

drenglish said:


> @STL I am currently top watering. I bet the bottom watering would be better for the grass. I just need to find a large enough basin....maybe those plastic Rubbermaid's that are meant for going under beds. I'm pretty excited about the pots for just the experimental value in them. Have you been able to identify differences in the pots like color difference/growth rate/etc?
> 
> A question back on track with your Reno, are you planning on weekly spoon feeding the bluegrass this Fall or more of a monthly plan?


I used those cheap aluminum foil casserole pans from the grocery store for my bottom watering. Cheap and durable.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Congrats germination is always a good thing


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim good point. I don't think it's that thick, at least not in too many areas from what I can gather. I'm also getting some early sprouts in a few of those little piles so I'm going to ride it out.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@LawnNerd that's a good idea. I used planting trays that were big enough to hold my 6 and 12 inch pots. Fairly cheap and get the job done.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@JDgreen18 yessir! Third reno for me, but still exciting and a relief to see!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I decided to delay seed down on the second part of my backyard because it's so damn hot. Mainly because I didn't want to work out in the heat and humidity. I'm soaking the seeds to give them a head start instead. Should be a nice little experiment too.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

How many days are you soaking? It's going to be hot here this next week too.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish I'm going to shoot for 3-4 days. Never soaked seed before. I plan to hand spread, but not sure how much I should let it dry first, if at all.



drenglish said:


> Have you been able to identify differences in the pots like color difference/growth rate/etc?


Sorry, I missed this question. As far as color, they are very similar, but Blue Velvet is slightly darker than Bewitched. Mazama is slightly darker on some blades then Blue Velvet, which makes is slightly darker overall. The differences are small and you really have to compare to notice any. Blue Velvet has some greenish-blue tones, which are cool. Growth rate is pretty much identical in the pots. I can't discern any difference. In the yard, though, it seems to be a different story. It appears that one cultivar is growing much faster than the others and is a bit lighter green. I compared notes with another member who is growing basically the same blend and he noticed in his pots that Mazama grew faster than the others when fertilized. I think that may be the culprit. My test plots should provide a better comparison.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Green fuzz from a distance this morning in the shadey section under the redbud's canopy on day 8 (well, technically day 7.5). Full sun area just outside the shade is still taking its time.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

More rain on the way this week. Hopefully not to severe. When are you putting down the rest of your seed?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Budstl Thanks for the heads up on the rain. I'll get the seed down after the heat breaks, probably Wednesday or Thursday.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

On Wunderground weather, it looks like less than .25" for the days with chance of rain.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Guys please keep the rain on the west side of the Mississippi.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> Guys please keep the rain on the west side of the Mississippi.


For real. I had a washout on days 4 and 7. Don't need another.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

KHARPS said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Guys please keep the rain on the west side of the Mississippi.
> ...


Its not my fault, you won't see me doing any rain dances. Ive had plenty of rain and it keeps coming every couple of days.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Just reading through your notes here...
It looks like you had germination on days 6 and 8, primarily in shady spots.
Still no germination in areas with full sun.
You made it through some downpours (and a small river or two) without any real problem.

Sound about right?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> KHARPS said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


No rain dances from this guy either! I think I paid my dues to Mother Nature already. You guys are on your own! Lol. I'm really do hope you guys catch a break though. You deserve it with all the hard work.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@social port pretty much. First signs of germination in the shade parts on day 6 and continuing through day 8, when it was tall and widespread enough to give that fuzzy appearance. Some germination evident in the full sun part, but it's slower going which I expected. Minor washout from rain, but not bad. Others have certainly had worse.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I'm starting to get cold feet on using soaked seed. I did more reading on the topic and the articles talk about limited water priming methods, oxygen levels, osmosis levels, using pumped air to keep the seed cool, etc, etc. I think I'll save this experiment for the pots on the first go around.

Also had my first misstep with the reno. I reseeded the little river that the rain carved out a couple days ago, but turns out I shouldn't have. There's germination there now. I seeded originally at ~2.3#/m and only hand sprinkled the reseed, so it'll probably be fine. If it gets too thick, I'll have to thin it out though.

Side note, this is an example of when seeding at the highest rate could cause issues. If you don't make the right call on reseeding, there's potential for too much density.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

STL said:


> I'm starting to get cold feet on using soaked seed. I did more reading on the topic and the articles talk about limited water priming methods, oxygen levels, osmosis levels, using pumped air to keep the seed cool, etc, etc. I think I'll save this experiment for the pots on the first go around.
> 
> Also had my first misstep with the reno. I reseeded the little river that the rain carved out a couple days ago, but turns out I shouldn't have. There's germination there now. I seeded originally at ~2.3#/m and only hand sprinkled the reseed, so it'll probably be fine. If it gets too thick, I'll have to thin it out though.
> 
> Side note, this is an example of when seeding at the highest rate could cause issues. If you don't make the right call on reseeding, there's potential for too much density.


Sounds like to much of a hassle to me when kbg will germinate in 6 or 7 days. I can't believe you would gain more than maybe a day or 2 at the most. I would be concerned about having spreading issues with it also.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim yeah, I think you may be right. If it works, it could serve some purpose in like an overseed scenario. For me, I was just thinking of jump starting it since I missed target seed down date on that half. Plus, any more time I can give my kids in the yard makes me feel better. I'm with you though and will stick with the ol' fashion way.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

All of the potential mishaps in this year's Reno keep me awake at night. You'll be out mowing before you know it. By the way, what's your plan for feeding - not sure if you mentioned this yet.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish tell me about it... Although this one is going well so far and germination looks good, if not a little slow from the heat recently. It's already looking much more even than last year. I'm interested in seeing how much weed pressure I have this time. Had a ton last year but two Tenacity apps smoked it all.

I haven't quite finalized plans for feeding it yet. I have a lot of urea on hand, so I'll most likely use that. As for when, I'll be watching the sprout and pout phase closely. I'm hoping it can do it's thing, develops the roots, and move on quickly. There's a risk-reward/lesser of two evils situation with getting it as ready as possible for when my kids get back out there with pushing it prematurely. I'll probably read more reno threads again, particularly HLG's, to see when other folks started and the results. I may give foliar feedings a try. Just have to make sure I have soluble urea, I think I do, and read up on it more. I'll have to check my notes to see what I did last year, but I'll probably do 0.25#N weekly and see how it goes. Something along those lines.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

I got 15 lbs of both Ferrous Sulfate and 15 of Ammonium Sulfate...I might give the foliage feedings a try too. I'm leaning towards the fast release feedings this Fall just to give the grass what it needs right away this time around while it's critical this season then slow it down next year. I don't know if that's a sound strategy or not. How soon after germination did you apply Tenacity last year?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

That seems sound to me. One thing I learned is to be mindful of not over feeding, but focus more on overall plant health, which young KBG needs food. In my experience, strong plants will stress less and stand up to the heat better. I may try a synthetic app next year too and see how it does. Nothing crazy though. Water is key too. I'm also going to focus on watering starting in the spring too, which I hardly did before, based on evapotranspiration rate. You reminded me that I need to look into FAS too!

I applied tenacity off label last year due to weed pressure. Part of me thinks I may have forgotten to add tenacity at seed down because it was so high. It's certainly possible since I had a busy work schedule, two little boys running around, and a wife super pregnant with twins. I had germination on day 9 and applied Tenacity at the 4oz/acre rate on day 28, so 19 days post germination or so. It was starting to get choked out by the weeds and was a tough call at the time, but I think it was the right one.

This pic was taken a few days before I decided to pull the trigger. Look at all that! And the patchiness too! I was a nervous wreck! Even the wild onions got smoked by tenacity though and it turned out fine. Second and third pic was ~day 40 and third is the following May. I like looking at these to remind myself everything will be alright. Lol


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

Wow. That tenacity app sure did the job. I'm glad to have in my my arsenal for this season! Are you going to use local weather data for E/T calculations or plan on gathering that from a soil probe yourself? I'm really interested in this area.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish yes, Tenacity is a Godsend for renovators!

Check out the last few posts on @Pete1313's thread. He dropped some very good info and resources on ET watering, complete with spreadsheets and everything.

I'd love to get a PWS with all the fixins but it's not in the cards anytime soon. One day... In the meantime, I'm going to track via Pete's method and compare results to my smart irrigation controller. There's a PWS a few blocks from me with accurate precipitation data that I can link the controller to. It'll take some adjustments but I'm hoping it's smart enough to do a good job.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

I'm curious to see how you like the spreadsheet. LMK when you have time to set it up and play around with it.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

I dont have a PWS, but I have one of these wireless rain gauges. It is priced right, and gives rain data from my yard. I keep it set at how much rain I received over the past 24 hours and then just check it each morning before leaving for work.

Also incase you are interested, here is a link to a website that forecasts ETo. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1091&hilit=Forecast+evapotranspiration


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Pete1313 thanks again! I'll let you know how it works out. The only weather station reporting ET data in my area is ~35 miles north, so hopefully that's accurate enough to get the job done.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Germination and initial growth is still pretty slow going in a some areas. I've never had grass come up perfectly even. Those few days of mid 90s didn't help. Overall, initial coverage seems like it should be better than last year.

The ~inch of rain a couple days ago caused puddling in a few spots but no washout. It's cloudier and cooler and ground is still moist from the rain, so I haven't had to start watering again yet. Tenacity is doing its job on the sedge that has come up. I hate nut sedge! No bleaching on the wild onions yet though.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

STL said:


> Germination and initial growth is still pretty slow going in a some areas. I've never had grass come up perfectly even. Those few days of mid 90s didn't help. Overall, initial coverage seems like it should be better than last year.
> 
> The ~inch of rain a couple days ago caused puddling in a few spots but no washout. It's cloudier and cooler and ground is still moist from the rain, so I haven't had to start watering again yet. Tenacity is doing its job on the sedge that has come up. I hate nut sedge! No bleaching on the wild onions yet though.


That's impressive.
I love tenacity, but it didn't seem to do much for my wild garlic last year. It came up like crazy.
The tenacity took care of almost everything else. 
I can't believe it got the sedge!


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

I've been pleasantly surprised by the Tenacity working on sedge as well!


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

@STL have you dropped your second set of seed. If not, want some Barserati?


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL Are you planning on using a PGR on the lawn this year or next?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> @STL have you dropped your second set of seed. If not, want some Barserati?


Dang! I put seed down yesterday. I had room to add another test plot too. I appreciate the offer though!


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

drenglish said:


> @STL Are you planning on using a PGR on the lawn this year or next?


I think I'll try next year. I can't keep up with mowing just the side yard KBG as it is.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I got the second half of the lawn seeded on Saturday. Test plots of Mazama, Bewitched, Blue Velvet, Midnight, and NuGlade are a go as well. I marked the corners with flags for now. Thanks again @iowa jim and @probasestealer for the seed!



Part of the first half is stubbornly slow to get going. I'm not sure if the topdressing got too thick from pooling when it rained or what, but it's kinda like last year in that progress is slowly spreading from one side to the other. Maybe it's my soil. I'm going to ride it out for now though.

Looks like storms are a brewing in the gulf area and rain is forecasted for Thursday through Saturday. I really hope it fizzles out before it gets up here!


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

@STL Glad to see we put seeds down on our test plot the same day (sept 1). It will be nice to have such a close comparison.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

NoslracNevok said:


> @STL Glad to see we put seeds down on our test plot the same day (sept 1). It will be nice to have such a close comparison.


No doubt! I'm really interested in comparing the individual cultivars first hand.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@STL how much space did you leave between the green line and seed?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@probasestealer The landscape paint is about an inch, maybe a little less, thick and I went right up to it. Well, as close as my eyes and fingers allowed. I'm sure I overlapped or was a bit short in some spots.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

With Gordon's wrath about to wreak havoc on my area, I decided to do what I can given my lack of preparedness for the 4-5 inches of rain we're expected to get over the next couple days.



I put down 1# of xanthan gum Grocery Store Tackifier that I picked up from the grocery store over the ~1300 sqft of seed that is set to germinate at the same time that the rain is supposed to hit.

I first tried dissolving it in water to apply from my sprayer, but abandoned that concept after it became clear that I'd either need a lot more water to make it flowable or I'd have to do too many passes at a very diluted rate. I ended up using my whizz and it worked OK. I got it down decently, albeit not very evenly with clear rows where it was applied. It was noticeable tacky to the touch. I'm going to try and follow up with a light layer of EZ Straw, which has a tackifier as well, if I have time before the rain. I honestly have my doubts that any of this will help all that much though. I guess we'll find out. Stay tuned...


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL. I'll be praying that all the hard work with these renovations is not wasted. I might get hit with some showers before you, but I've already got widespread TTTF germination...so hopefully things stay in place. We'll see. I hope that your tackifier-in-a-pinch solution works well, if so, it might be something I do in a week and a half for the last lawn renovation this Fall.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Round 2 of germination is just starting to poke through! I first saw them last night, so a little over 5 days.



The excitement is short-lived though with the rain coming later today. The two Lowe's I went to did not have EZ Straw in stock, despite the online inventory saying that it was, so I wasn't able to get any. The reno is pretty much on its own now. We'll see how it holds up.


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

Noice! Is this the Mazama plot?

Lowe's online inventory inaccurate? I'm shocked, just shocked.

The hourly forecast shows a pretty constant even spread of rain, which I think seedlings can stand.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

NoslracNevok said:


> Noice! Is this the Mazama plot?
> 
> Lowe's online inventory inaccurate? I'm shocked, just shocked.
> 
> The hourly forecast shows a pretty constant even spread of rain, which I think seedlings can stand.


Thanks! That's just the area right by my porch that I can see. Not sure of activity in the test plots at this point.

Good point. I guess I assumed retail inventory for a national chain would be easier to keep tabs on and keep updated. Never ran into this issue before at least.

I hope so and the forecast has gotten better. Even cumulative rain can be an issue with puddling and run off though. Seedlings seem pretty fragile when they first come up with hardly any roots. No doubt slow and steady rain is better than a downpour, but I'm still nervous though.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

@STL have you checked at a true value for the ez straw? I got mine from charlies out in wentzville.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL Good luck man. May the odds ever be in your favor!

But really, I think the rain this weekend is going to fizzle out for us here south of you . I bet the seedlings will shoot up nicely for you after all the moisture the ground is getting. I've got a sea of green and am already getting antsy to get out and mow which brings me to this question for you:

When and how do you plan to mow the new grass for the first time? I'm thinking 2" for the first few cuts until most blades are at that height then raise the HOC to around 3" for the rest of the season.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish thanks! I think you may be right with the rain loosing steam. Looks like your Gandalf routine may have worked!

For mowing, that's pretty much what I'll do. Once I can get the timemaster on it, I'll probably keep it at 2.25 or 2.75 for the season though.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Budstl said:


> @STL have you checked at a true value for the ez straw? I got mine from charlies out in wentzville.


You know, I didn't even think to look at true value. There's one right down the street too. Looks like the rain fizzled out some. I was out of town last night, but will be back later this morning to take a look see.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

@STL the rain has actually been a nice one. It's been stready, but never a down pour. At least here it hasn't.


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## Tim H (May 31, 2018)

It was the same out west, nice and steady rain. I measured about 2 inches total in my yard.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Same here. Two inches. I need to throw out a little top dressing in places, but that's the worst of it. Really doged a bullet compared to what they were saying earlier in the week. I hope these couple days of temps in the 60s and 70s really kick start things too.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

The second wave of seeding and germination is looking good so far. Germination is wide spread and pretty even, which is nice.

Viewing from a distance, germination on most of the test plots appears about the same. Mazama and Bewitched look good. The midnights are a bit slower with Blue Velvet having what looks like the most, Midnight second, and NuGlade a distant third. Not much visible activity in the NuGlade plot yet. I have to change my 360 sprinkler head nozzle in the middle of the yard, so I'll be able to get a better look then.

There's also a 3' x 15' section closest to my house and a smaller section in the back corner of the property under the red bud that has hardly any seedlings from the mid August seed down. I made the executive decision to reseed. I'm not exactly sure what's going on in those sections. I may have forgotten to go back and roll those parts or it could perhaps be a deeper shade issue with the sunlight changing to lower angle Fall patterns. The part next to the house is getting more and more deep shade from the house and the back corner is also from the fence and trees. I'm going to rake the soil really good, reseed, and top dress with topsoil and a bit of compost to improve soil contact, stamp it in really well, and see if that works. I'm also going to get more pots going in case I need fall back on plan B and transplant those areas.


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

Your Mazama and Bewitched have about equal germination/growth? My Mazama plot is coming up slower, I'd guess 2 or so days behind the Bewitched plot. (identical conditions and seed down date)


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

NoslracNevok said:


> Your Mazama and Bewitched have about equal germination/growth? My Mazama plot is coming up slower, I'd guess 2 or so days behind the Bewitched plot. (identical conditions and seed down date)


Yeah, looks that way. I'll get a closer look after work when I I get out there to change the sprinkler nozzle though.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@NoslracNevok after looking closer, bewitched may be slightly ahead at this point, but it's pretty neck and neck.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

It's been a little under two weeks and the reno is coming along. Still getting new germination in some spots. Midnight test plot is coming up more. NuGlade is still very slow but there is some there from what I can tell.

I'm going to plant some more landscaping this weekend. I may wait on finishing up my firepit for a couple more weeks.

I tried to grab a couple pics with a bit of the morning sun lighting up the seedlings.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Coming along nicely @STL. I love day 21. It's night and day different from day 14. What kind of tree is planted in the back corner?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Budstl thanks! Looking forward to watching it mature for sure.

The tree is a Sun Valley Red Maple. I went back and forth on what to put there. I wanted something that wouldn't get huge, but would provide some late afternoon shade. It's supposed to only get 35' tall, have bright red fall color, and be seedless.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Nice! I like maples. Can't wait to see it's fall color to go along with that grass. I'm having an october glory maple planted in the next couple of months by daniels greenhouse.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

STL said:


> @Budstl thanks! Looking forward to watching it mature for sure.
> 
> The tree is a Sun Valley Red Maple. I went back and forth on what to put there. I wanted something that wouldn't get huge, but would provide some late afternoon shade. It's supposed to only get 35' tall, have bright red fall color, and be seedless.


I have the same tree in my front lawn and its only 3 years old, but its puts out a beautiful red in the fall and it is seedless.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@Budstl cool! Daniel's is in my neck of the woods and I get the family Christmas trees there. I like them a lot.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@iowa jim nice! It seems like a great tree. How big is yours now?


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

STL said:


> @iowa jim nice! It seems like a great tree. How big is yours now?


Its about 10 foot, i will get a pic of it and put it in my reno post for you tomorrow.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

So, some seedlings are disappearing. It's like they're gone out of things air. I'm not able to find a trace of them. I first noticed it on the original seeding area, but thought I was just losing my mind or something. I've been watching an area closely right by my porch where I noticed it thinning out and sure enough, this morning a little patch is completely gone. Only thing I can think of is maybe some animal or fungus. I'm going to apply fungicide since its also going to get into the mid 90s next week. I can't take the risk at this point.


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## bgillroy (May 30, 2018)

I think a rabbit would do some damage just like that.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL what fungicide are you thinking of? I noticed tons of caterpillars falling from trees in my back lawn this past week. I don't know if that could be a problem or not but they were searching for something to munch on for sure. How safe is propiconazole on a new lawn?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@bgillroy I had rabbits in the yard a little while back but haven't seen any lately. Squirrels, morning doves, and whatever is living in this hole too. 


I found a mole too this morning! I f-ing hate moles! At least his tunnel goes to the edge so I don't have to tear up too much to trap him.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish I'm going to tank mix azoxystrobin and propiconazole at the low rate. Both are safe for seedlings.

Yeah, could be animals, insects, fungus, not exactly sure But whatever is messing with my seedlings is what I'm blaming for the section I had to reseed and for the loss right in front of my porch. There were little seedlings coming up and then... nothing there. Definitely a head scratcher.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Disappearing sprouts. Weird. No...terrifying. Even Stephen King's mind isn't that sinister.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

STL, any possibility of a prem? Some of the bagged mulch has a prem.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

I got the fungicide down and will wait til later on the mole trap. That bastard's on the move!

@g-man My wife did bag mulch but doesn't remember what she used. I also put a pre em down in spring. The issue is along the edges and awkward corners so maybe I inadvertently applied too much in those areas. No idea for sure though.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Two weeks since germination. It's pouting at the moment. Still not much in the Nuglade test plot but the other midnight's are catching up. The last two weeks in the 90s were rough. Turns out I had more fungal damage than I originally thought, especially in the shade. I noticed that two of my MPs aren't always spinning consistently either.

Coverage is still plenty for things to fill in this fall in most areas. I also did some final reseeding in a few spots. Weed pressure is increasing and I may do the follow up Tenacity app a week early. I'm going to evaluate probably next week for an N app at the same time. I hope the lower temps coming up help things take off.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

The seedlings in the second area are putting out more leaves and also appear to be tillering and growing, so sprout and pout may actually be finishing up in most areas. I'm going to give it a couple days to make sure it's putting on vertical growth and then do the first N app. I'll handpick weeds at the same time.

Haven't caught the mole yet. He hasn't been active in a while, but just this morning, I'm seeing a new tunnel in the same general area. I'm going to move the trap this evening after the soil dries a bit.

I'm still having the same issue with brand new seedlings conking out and withering away/disappearing. Same area along the edges, just not quite as widespread this time. It may be too wet there or maybe a pre-em issue from the spring. That part gets water from two zones so I adjusted my timer a bit to not water those zones back to back and not as long. Hopefully that'll help.

Overall, it's doing well enough despite the unexpected challenges. Looking forward to cooler temps and N to get things moving!


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

I've found it best to tamp down the mole tacks, observe a day then place a trap at each end and one in the middle. I'm not using mine right now, you can borrow them for a few days if you want.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@NoslracNevok yeah, that's what I've been doing, but I usually get them quicker. This one seems to have waves of activity then lays low for a while. If I don't get him after I move the trap tonight, I may take you up on using more traps. What kind do you use? I have the Tom Cat.


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

My three have similar design but metal, look like this. 
https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/8799309f-8e8c-4da3-90a6-b53fd2bdf486_1.9c0f5cdb0a31679be43f8289dd3992a1.jpeg

It also makes a difference if you push it in the dirt, then set the trap rather than the other way around.

Let me know, I'll just leave them outside somewhere if I'm not home.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Sprout and pout ended and the grass is starting to thicken up. I applied ~0.2#N from the last if my starter.



The reseeded areas germinated and appear to be coming in well. I think the lower temps are helping. I'm going to put the last little bit of the NuGlade seed down to help out the test plot.



Nothing seems to want to grow in some trouble spots, so I'm going to transplant those areas and rely on it spreading. Still not sure what's going on there.

I had some guests over last night and a few of the kids played out in the yard a little. The grass handled it really well. It's not quite ready for a lot of traffic, but here and there with some time to recover and I think it'll be just fine.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Did you have problems before in that area @STL? I'm assuming you've done the screwdriver test?


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL looking better. When you reseed, are you top dressing? I have a few areas I want to throw some seed down to help recover from squirrel damage. One area in the backyard bluegrass plot was a large streak that I either missed or my spring PreM was still very strong. Who knows. Are you going to use Urea or AS for the next few feedings?

Also, this week I'll be assessing several trees and lower limbs and wanted a little more input on how much shade is ok from what you've experienced. I know it's been said that shade in the transition zone on cool season turf can help, but how much is too much? I've got Bewitched in the shadiest areas but need to prune up a few trees to let a little more light to one corner that I think gets nothing but dappled light coming through the maples. Out front I have a sycamore tree with leaves as big as a plate. More of a hassle than anything else.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Budstl said:


> Did you have problems before in that area @STL? I'm assuming you've done the screwdriver test?


Haven't had problems there, but it was weeds and tall fescue before the reno. I have done the screw driver test before and results have been good since Instated using my DIY soil conditioner two years ago.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

drenglish said:


> @STL looking better. When you reseed, are you top dressing? I have a few areas I want to throw some seed down to help recover from squirrel damage. One area in the backyard bluegrass plot was a large streak that I either missed or my spring PreM was still very strong. Who knows. Are you going to use Urea or AS for the next few feedings?
> 
> Also, this week I'll be assessing several trees and lower limbs and wanted a little more input on how much shade is ok from what you've experienced. I know it's been said that shade in the transition zone on cool season turf can help, but how much is too much? I've got Bewitched in the shadiest areas but need to prune up a few trees to let a little more light to one corner that I think gets nothing but dappled light coming through the maples. Out front I have a sycamore tree with leaves as big as a plate. More of a hassle than anything else.


Thanks. Yeah, it's starting to pick up the pace and the N apps should help quite a bit.

I did topdress when I reseeded. I did compost in a couple spots and top soil in another. I'll be using urea for feedings since I have a lot. I'll probably try and pick up AS at some point for FAS, summer patch help if I need it, and later season N apps.

I limbed up a maple as well and I think it's helped. 4-8 hours of sun seems ideal for my yard. You probably want a minimum of around 3 hours of sun ideally, but maybe could get away with 2 hours and bewitched or TTTF. Deeper shade can cause issues with thinning out over time. My KBG gets powdery mildew in the spring and fall in the shade. The propiconazole I use for other things clears it up though. Not sure if it would clear up on its own. Does your mower mulch the sycamore leaves well? At least those leaves give you some good OM each fall!


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL I'll need to look into Summer patch vs Brown patch as I had something last year and used propiconazole to clear it up. Knowing what it is this year if it happens would be good. So AS to help the grass grow out of the disease? That's not the case for all fungus though?

I need to watch some potential shade problem areas and decide which trees and which branches to trim to let a little more light in.

Yeah the sycamore leaves mulch nicely. They dry super fast too so one pass and they are dust.

You know, Pete Denny is doing a test plot like you this year. I'm really interested in results from his too because I think he plans on reel mowing at some point.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

@drenglish brown patch is actually pretty easy to distinguish from summer patch. BP will have the telltale lesions and is much more common on TTTF than KBG, though both can get it. Summer patch doesn't really affect TTTF. It's much harder to distinguish summer patch from drought stress, since it's essentially drought stress caused by infected and impaired roots.

A little N can help grow out some fungal issues. AS is used when summer patch symptoms appear because it's an acidifying source. SP is worse the higher the ph is over 6.5 and a quick shot of AS can help lessen the extent of the damage. Check out the SP research out there from Rutgers. Very good stuff!

Is Pete Denny the GCI (or whatever it is) guy? Is he doing KBG?


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@STL thanks for the clarification on the two. I definitely had brown patch last year, the lesions were very obsvious. I need to plan/get input for a controlled Spring feeding and a Summer grain/organic plan and at the same time get ready for the fungus game, not if, but for when it happens this next season. I've got granular propiconazole on hand, just need some azoxystrobin probably through diseaseEx, but perhaps a sprayable if that's cheaper. Then maybe a third if that's advisable.

Yeah, Pete from GCI turf has a pretty decent sized test plot of Midnight, Everest I think, Prosperity? And maybe Bewitched... I probably messed those all up. He had a 4 test plot going and put it down right before getting slammed by one of therecent hurricanes. Real excited to follow his progress because he's a boss when it comes to TTTF.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Pic from the weekend. I wasn't able to mow before the all the rain came in, so no fresh cut pic unfortunately. With less watering, I'm noticing spots that dry out much quicker, so I'm going to apply soil conditioner more regularly. The heavy soil could use more help for sure. I reseeded the NuGlade plot and giving it about another week and a half to show more signs of life. If not, it's going to get plugs from my side yard since my wife is starting to complain.

Progress has been slow but steady. Temps have cooled off quite a bit today. I'm going out of town for a week and interested in seeing the change when I get back. Another urea app, mow, then off to the beach! The break will be welcome for sure!


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Temps cool and this guy heads to the beach. Have fun. Reno is coming along nicely.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Fall break. I'm headed to Florida too next week.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

It's happening here too. Cool temps and people head out of town. My time to get caught up on lawn care! Nah, enjoy the break. It does help to not stare at the grass for at least a day or two. It seems to grow faster that way.

Looking good man. What are you using for the soil conditioner?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Thanks guys. Yep, heading to Destin for fall break.

For soil conditioner, I use a combo of SLS, humid acid, and kelp.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

@STL any updates on the plots? Noticing any difference between them with cooler temps?


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

How's the lawn looking sir?


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

Hey @NoslracNevok! It's looking alright! I did some dormant seeding this winter that worked pretty decent. Backyard gets less sun in the spring so it took a bit longer to wake up. Things are thickening and starting to fill in. Still have work to do with plugging some areas and weed control. Been super busy with the kids and a new job, so it's been even harder to find time to get out there. I'll post a proper update when I have some time.


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