# Backyard Project - Complete Overhaul



## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Hi, All - No idea why I haven't joined before now, but after months of browsing threads here and there I finally ended up joining the site, so first-time poster here! Really seems to be a wealth of knowledge on this site. Quick background:
Not new to landscaping/lawn care - I owned my previous home for 8 years and kept it very neat - mowing the existing mixed warm season lawn frequently, creating a bunch of new beds for shrubs/flowers, you name it. Then before that, throughout college, I worked 4 years in golf course maintenance... anything from greens-keeping to every type of mowing on a golf course you could imagine.
Fast-forward to now I'm essentially starting from scratch with a new construction home in Eastern NC and looking to dive a little deeper into the turf management side of things
Lawn specifics: 
​o	*Front yard* (6K sqft) was sodded with centipede in early April (establishing very well), separated from back yard by a fence and a 5 ft wide flower bed
​o	*Back yard* (5K sqft) is currently the worst mixture of weeds/bare dirt that you've ever seen (see pics), with a few small patches of (what I believe is) common Bermuda and centipede here and there.

Long story short we spend a TON of time in our backyard (pool, golf practice, bbq'ing, playing with our dog, etc.) and the weeds are just driving us nuts. We considered just dealing with the weeds this summer, waiting until fall/winter and getting it sodded with matching centipede.. but I really think there's a good deal of cost to be saved by seeding, plus I enjoy doing yard projects on my own. With this post I am hoping to get some opinions on my plan for this backyard project:
1)	Glyphosate the entire back yard once or twice
2)	Once everything is dead, drop the rotary mower as low as it will go and scalp it all down to dirt
3)	Use something like a power rake or de-thatcher to rough up the surface; rake up and remove any remnants of dead vegetation
4)	Apply a starter fertilizer then immediately seed the area
5)	Turf choice - Although I have centipede in the front yard, I'm leaning towards Bermuda for the backyard project - something like Yukon, Arden 15, La Prima.. or even thought about just common Bermuda. The thought here is that Bermuda is such a strong, resilient turf that I wouldn't worry about it handling all the frequent foot traffic & abuse as compared to how centipede may handle all of that. Does this logic make sense?
6)	Use my impact sprinklers and water timer to keep the seed bed wet 3 times per day until fully germinated.. then let it roll with routine mowing, fertilizing, weed control, and supplemental watering as needed.

*Immediate goals* - Not looking for a golf course backyard out of the gate, but it would be nice to save some money (by not going the sod route) and have some actual grass this summer, instead of weeds and bare dirt. I would aim to mow twice per week and maintain somewhere around 2" HOC or as low as I can without scalping with my rotary mower.

*Longer-term goals* - (This also contributes to me wanting to go Bermuda versus centipede) Although I will start out keeping it simple - solely rotary mowing at a higher HOC, I know my tendencies so I could absolutely see myself wanting to up my game, get into a little more involved program, including testing the waters with reel mowing at some point.. although would 5K sqft be a bit much for a walk behind reel mower?

Excited to join the site - I look forward to hearing from you all! Open to all thoughts and suggestions on my plan. Here's a few pics of what I'm dealing with:

*Common Bermuda (?) and Crabgrass*


*Small patch of Bermuda and bunch of other weeds*


*Weeds and bare spots*


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Did I post this in the wrong section? In summary, just trying to get an idea if I'm in the ballpark on my plan and if I'm choosing the right type of grass. I was told recently to re-think going Bermuda because it "requires an irrigation system to keep enough water on it".


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

If growing from seed, Bermuda will need a lot of water but that's true for *any* warm season grass you grow from seed. Once it is established Bermuda is one of the most drought tolerant warm season grasses.


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## david_ (Aug 22, 2019)

I like your plan and I like Bermuda, though seeding is something I've had very little success with. I'd probably buy sod and make plugs.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm a big fan of Bermuda for many reasons but not a big fan of seeding. I recommend spending a little extra ahead of time to get sod and save in the long run. If you decide to seed, start a journal so that when you are successful you can tell me "I told you so". I promise I won't do likewise after the seedlings get overrun by weeds and it washes out a couple of times.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Thanks for the input. I can certainly live with babying it with water while establishing. We just went through what seemed like a 3 month drought in my part of NC so I had to use impact sprinklers from day 1 of my centipede sodding in early April up to about 2 weeks ago. 
As for type of Bermuda, I don't know what to expect with regard to how HOC corresponds to mow frequency for something like Yukon versus a standard common. I'd like to shoot for as low HOC as I can with a mowing frequency of twice per week.. in general with that mow frequency what would be an approximate HOC range I could maintain with those types of Bermuda?


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Redtwin said:


> I'm a big fan of Bermuda for many reasons but not a big fan of seeding. I recommend spending a little extra ahead of time to get sod and save in the long run. If you decide to seed, start a journal so that when you are successful you can tell me "I told you so". I promise I won't do likewise after the seedlings get overrun by weeds and it washes out a couple of times.


 :lol: I guess maybe I've been reading through most of the success stories versus failure stories on seeding. The washout scenario is honestly what scares me the most.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

The sodded varieties are going to do better at the lower HOCs. If you're looking to go super low, Tifgrand is a good one. Low is relative with Bermuda. Some consider anything under an inch as low. I feel mine looks shaggy if it gets over .5". Most Bermuda varieties, even the common variants, will do well between .75" and 1". I have been keeping my 419 at .25" to pressure out some common I have in one small area. The common can't handle it and it is almost dirt in those areas. The 419 loves it and is taking over.


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

My opinion would be to spend a little extra and buy some sod. The instant pay off will be worth it. 5k sq feet won't hurt the pocket too bad and there is plenty of work involved to fulfill you diy sense of accomplishment needs. You put down common Bermuda seeds, struggle with it for a season or two and wish you had just bit the bullet in the beginning and put down a nice hybrid. Or, best case scenario is you put a ton of work into it, have great success in the project but it's still just common Bermuda and won't look great, just pretty good at best. You will want more judging by your long term goals. This lawn hobby is a long game. Set yourself up now for what you want in the end, you'll be glad you did. Just my 2 cents.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Redtwin said:


> The sodded varieties are going to do better at the lower HOCs. If you're looking to go super low, Tifgrand is a good one. Low is relative with Bermuda. Some consider anything under an inch as low. I feel mine looks shaggy if it gets over .5". Most Bermuda varieties, even the common variants, will do well between .75" and 1". I have been keeping my 419 at .25" to pressure out some common I have in one small area. The common can't handle it and it is almost dirt in those areas. The 419 loves it and is taking over.


Holy smokes, 1/4"! That, to me, is super low for residential.. props to you! It would be a long time I'd expect before I tried out low mowing with a reel mowing. 
I'm going to have to start out higher since all I have is a rotary mower at the moment. I don't even think I could get down to 1" with a rotary without scalping… personal preference aside, Is 2" too high for the Bermuda types I mentioned?


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

bp2878 said:


> My opinion would be to spend a little extra and buy some sod. The instant pay off will be worth it. 5k sq feet won't hurt the pocket too bad and there is plenty of work involved to fulfill you diy sense of accomplishment needs. You put down common Bermuda seeds, struggle with it for a season or two and wish you had just bit the bullet in the beginning and put down a nice hybrid. Or, best case scenario is you put a ton of work into it, have great success in the project but it's still just common Bermuda and won't look great, just pretty good at best. You will want more judging by your long term goals. This lawn hobby is a long game. Set yourself up now for what you want in the end, you'll be glad you did. Just my 2 cents.


Such valid points. Oddly enough, going the sod route is what my wife wants to do, for the same reasons you mentioned. Another benefit of going sod is it would allow me to put more attention to prepping the area- killing off the existing stuff and taking my time on leveling.


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

If the wife is already on board then you gotta go with it! A good hybrid can tolerate 2" cut for now and also have the potential to go low when you decide to dive into reel mowing, which will sooner than you think. All my neighbors have 419 or tif tuff and they good at 2-2.5 inches. Not as good as my tifgrand at .5 though.


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## Falcon64 (May 29, 2019)

So I went through the same thing you have going on. Builder installed 4k centipede in the front and whats been a a steep learning curve in back 2400 sq ft of BS. 
Bought new home in Dec 16'. 
Spring 17': routed downspouts out and away from main yard and regraded in backyard. Brought in 3 inches of top soil. Seeded Yukon in the back.
Fought every weed imaginable in back and the yukon would never thickened up like i wanted all of 17.
Proceed to do the same in 18 in the back.
19'; Got control of it but it still just wasn't what I was expecting.
Well 2020 rolls through and me and the fam have to spend 6 months in California due to my job. Backyard was a disaster even with professional guys cutting.
Que 21. I bit the bullet; ordered Tifgrand from a local sod supplier; and by picking it up myself saved a ton of dough. All 2400 sq ft for $600. I'll never seed another yard again. Im not constantly pulling weeds, the turf is uniform. I'm cutting at .7 60 days after laying it down and the stitching lines are almost gone. My daughter is finally running around the backyard barefoot.

You'll spend more money and time fighting the BS than enjoying your yard in my opinion by seeding it.
The sod prices in central and eastern NC are so so cheap; just need to call around a bit. My supplier is out of Willow Spring.

TLR. Sod sod sod


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Falcon64 said:


> So I went through the same thing you have going on. Builder installed 4k centipede in the front and whats been a a steep learning curve in back 2400 sq ft of BS.
> Bought new home in Dec 16'.
> Spring 17': routed downspouts out and away from main yard and regraded in backyard. Brought in 3 inches of top soil. Seeded Yukon in the back.
> Fought every weed imaginable in back and the yukon would never thickened up like i wanted all of 17.
> ...


That would absolutely be the worse spending all that time, labor, and money on seed/chemical/etc for it to not turn out like you hoped. Now that rainfall has picked up and we have steady high temps the summer weeds are coming in STRONG.. makes me wonder if I'm also at high risk of battling weeds competing with new seedlings.

Did you lay the sod yourself? I've done small patch-up areas before on the golf course but I admit, laying 5K sqft of sod with just myself and my wife sounds like a lot, but I think doable.


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## BubbaGrumpus (Jun 17, 2019)

In Fayetteville here. Almost your exact same situation with square footage and grass species.

I have 3 dogs and they can't come close to hurting the common. We spend a lot of time in the back too. My opinion can be taken with a grain of salt, but I would..

1. Get some Celsius and Certainty. Also, your choice of pre-emergent. Throw it all down now.

2. Push the Bermuda in the back. Throw down every month. It will fill it.. (as long as it has sun and water)

3. The Centipede in the front could probably just be ignored/mowed this year.

4. Cut at 1.5-2.25. Save for a reel mower.. you know it'll happen.

The biggest factor in the Sandhills is water. If you can keep water on it.. it'll grow.


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## Falcon64 (May 29, 2019)

Twangin said:


> Falcon64 said:
> 
> 
> > So I went through the same thing you have going on. Builder installed 4k centipede in the front and whats been a a steep learning curve in back 2400 sq ft of BS.
> ...


That was my biggest issue; battling the crabgrass while also trying to grow in from seed.

I did lay the sod myself; started at 2:00 PM and had the first two and a half pallets down in 2 hours. The last 3 took me a while though. Had everything down and was drinking bourbon by 10:30 PM. I'm kind of nuts though; old college football and baseball guy. The only problem i have now is some of the yukon is coming up through the Tifgrand in areas. In my opinion I'd do half the back from the house back with sod and either plug or sprig from that 2500 sq ft.


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## dubyadubya87 (Mar 10, 2020)

I couldn't imagine having done my renovation/seeding without irrigation. Welcome and always excited to see someone do a renovation. Following.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Falcon64 said:


> Twangin said:
> 
> 
> > Falcon64 said:
> ...


Hahaaa you sound a lot like me. I get to laboring away at a project, get in the zone and next thing I know I've missed lunch and dinner, the job is done, but then I'm absolutely ZONKED.. makes the cold beer and bourbon that much more enjoyable though!


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

After some of the recommendations here for sodding, including the fact that that's the route my wife would rather take.. it may be going that direction. Will be making a decision really soon because either way I need to go ahead and get started if we're doing this project this season. 
Question: I know my timeline for the project if going seed.. but if I go sod, when would be the latest safe date to do the install? Most of my past sodding experience has been early spring (after final frost) so I'm mostly how frost, dormancy, etc. impacts success of the sod rooting well being. As I mentioned, im in eastern NC so my average first frost is around mid-end of October.


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## tincan (Sep 4, 2020)

I seeded my backyard (~3500 sqft) with Bermudagrass after deciding to get rid of tall Fescue 3 years ago. At that time, I didn't think much of the cultivar and I just picked up a bag of common Bermuda seeds from a big box store.

The tall Fescue was dying off from fungus. I only scalped everything down to dirt, added a thin layer of top soil, seeded, and watered the heck out of it (3 or 4 times a day). Being at the height of summer, the seeds germinated quickly (less than 10 days).

The Bermudagrass was able to fill in the yard, except in places where the tall Fescue didn't die and actually grew back. On hindsight, I should have killed off the Fescue before seeding.

I think seeding is doable given that you have a good handle on what to do. But you need to set your expectation that your lawn will probably have quite some weeds this year because you won't get the benefit of using pre-emergents (unless you handpull the weeds a lot).

If you are seeding, you need to start the process ASAP. I wouldn't seed later than July because you want Bermuda to get well established before going dormant in winter.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Twangin said:


> After some of the recommendations here for sodding, including the fact that that's the route my wife would rather take.. it may be going that direction. Will be making a decision really soon because either way I need to go ahead and get started if we're doing this project this season.
> Question: I know my timeline for the project if going seed.. but if I go sod, when would be the latest safe date to do the install? Most of my past sodding experience has been early spring (after final frost) so I'm mostly how frost, dormancy, etc. impacts success of the sod rooting well being. As I mentioned, im in eastern NC so my average first frost is around mid-end of October.


Any input here on the latest I would need to have Bermuda sod laid this year? Or can it essentially be laid any time of year, with no harm coming from frost on sod that hasn't fully established yet?

I've compiled a list of sod farms within a 2 hour radius so about to start getting pricing/availability.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

Twangin said:


> After some of the recommendations here for sodding, including the fact that that's the route my wife would rather take.. it may be going that direction. Will be making a decision really soon because either way I need to go ahead and get started if we're doing this project this season.
> Question: I know my timeline for the project if going seed.. but if I go sod, when would be the latest safe date to do the install? Most of my past sodding experience has been early spring (after final frost) so I'm mostly how frost, dormancy, etc. impacts success of the sod rooting well being. As I mentioned, im in eastern NC so my average first frost is around mid-end of October.


Bumping this back up- trying to get my plan together..

1) Since we're getting into summer here in Eastern NC, can I still proceed with the sod project (install would be around the first week of August) or would I be better off to wait until the fall to sod Bermuda?

2) Any opinions on which hybrid Bermuda I should go with?
My options are 419, TifTuf, and TifGrand. 
The ultimate goal (one day) would be to have the backyard area at a few different HOC to sort-of mimic a golf hole look- 1.5" on a couple perimeter laps rotary mowed, then the main large center area reel mowed around 1" to give a contrasting fairway look, and lastly I potentially have a small 500sqft area short enough to putt on.. 1/4" or so. 
Would love to be able to do all of that with 1 grass type and mow both of the lower heights (1" "fairway" and short mowed "green")with a single reel or greens mower. Am I asking to much here?


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

We all dream.... 

Sod in summer is better than fall.....lower risks. More water for sure


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

jayhawk said:


> We all dream....
> 
> Sod in summer is better than fall.....lower risks. More water for sure


Thanks! Other than potentially less rainfall in the fall, what would be the other risks?


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## devils27 (Apr 17, 2021)

i 2nd the sod. I seeded expensive bermuda seed, it was a bitch to get going, and even then wasnt growing the greatest even with constant care and TLC, and then 3 weeks later was all washed out from 1.5in of rain in 1hr. all that work and money down the drain in 1hr. now im left with bare spots of clay and sporatic thin areas of bermuda that never seemed to grow longer than 1inch.


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## Twangin (Jun 8, 2021)

devils27 said:


> i 2nd the sod. I seeded expensive bermuda seed, it was a b---- to get going, and even then wasnt growing the greatest even with constant care and TLC, and then 3 weeks later was all washed out from 1.5in of rain in 1hr. all that work and money down the drain in 1hr. now im left with bare spots of clay and sporatic thin areas of bermuda that never seemed to grow longer than 1inch.


Dang! Hate to hear that. That's exactly what I fear happening to me. We got 4" of rain in one day last week and I know had there been seed down, it would have all been completely washed away.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

jayhawk said:


> We all dream....
> 
> Sod in summer is better than fall.....lower risks. More water for sure


I'm saying you'll likely be using more H2O than in fall. The fall, risk is cooler weather, less mature roots And then winter damage / weak out of the gate spring. Bermuda a bit more forgiving however. Can u drop Bermuda in November? Sure, it's been done but again, sub-optimal for warm season grass


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

I like your plan. Maybe go with Arden or Monaco as Yukon has quinclorac tolerance issues, and maybe don't fertilize until the seedlings emerge. Also, maybe till/work in some compost to those bare spots, as it looks like you lack organic matter there. But otherwise, good plan. Go for it, you'll love it.


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