# dead poa...now what?



## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

June of 2019 I completed a reno and added 10 yards of top soil to roughly 4000sqft. Not the best time of year for the reno but the temps were cooler then normal, my yard was in terrible shape and I actually had great results. As the high heat came in July 2019, I started to get some brown spots and chalked it up to new grass not being able to handle the heat. Once the fall came, I was getting good growth, great color and many spots were filling in.

Fast forward to now. In early June 2020 more brown patches were showing up. Tried DiseaeEX but it didnt work. Now I'm realizing I have poa mixed in and it has died off from the heat.

At this point there's nothing I can do for the summer and have to live with this brown crap. What should I be doing in the fall to minimize poa coming back? I'm reading that digging out the sections is the only real way 

Does detaching and overseeing help? I sprayed prodiamine at a 6 month rate in April and have no weeds which is great but didn't realize I had poa until recently.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

What makes you think that is poa? It looks more like disease to me. Wish I could tell you what it is. What type of KBG is it, HGT? With that much dead turf I would dig up a sample and send to a turf pathology lab. It's maybe 20 bucks or so to do.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

tgreen said:


> What makes you think that is poa? It looks more like disease to me. Wish I could tell you what it is. What type of KBG is it, HGT? With that much dead turf I would dig up a sample and send to a turf pathology lab. It's maybe 20 bucks or so to do.


After putting down Scott's diseaseex at a curative rate roughly 1 week after the browning started it did not get better. It started browning very early June and got a worse over the month. May was cool with lots of rain and June was very dry and hot. I've been watering 3x a week for 45 min per zone since late May. I figured it was poa because I have definitely seen it in the lawn but paid no mind to it. I was told the hot summer heat kills off poa.

This is the mix I put down is
50% fescue, 40% rye and 10% kbg


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)




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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

You may have a few things going on here. I don't have any firsthand experience with the fine fescues (chewings, red, etc.) but I don't think they hold up to heat well. I wonder if some of the straw colored grass is the fine fescue. Someone on here with fine fescue experience will hopefully comment.

The other thing however is that there is definite disease in that stand. I took one of your pictures and drew some arrows so you can see what I'm looking at. I wish I could tell you the disease(s) but you really should send a sample to find out for sure.

Last things is that I hear you that you ran the diseaseX after you saw the problem but at that point the best you can hope for is to save what grass is left. The "curative" rate doesn't actually bring back the stuff that is already affected. The other issue is that the grass is growing slowly at this point in the year and the uptake of the chemical is slowed. The best bet is to go out with the diseaseX before you see symptoms.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Good info TY....*IF* this happens to be dead fescue from heat only, would I better off overseeding with this same mix in the fall or perhaps strictly kbg instead?

Maybe last year following my reno wasn't new grass browning from heat but maybe this same scenario.

My limited knowledge/reading suggested there were 2 types of chemicals to assist in curing disease?? One was azoxystrobin which is what Scott's diseaseex has, and the other I cant remember. But as u suggested, perhaps I need to get this down in May before the browing occurs in June


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@bentz69 This is not TTTF. It checks out in the heat. If you water 3 times a week (45 min means how much water???) Poa A will mostly survive. KBG over seeding is a waste of time. If you don't want to start over, an elite PRG cultivar or mix is your best bet.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Babameca said:


> @bentz69 This is not TTTF. It checks out in the heat. If you water 3 times a week (45 min means how much water???) Poa A will mostly survive. KBG over seeding is a waste of time. If you don't want to start over, an elite PRG cultivar or mix is your best bet.


As far as the amount of water I do not know. I do know that anything over 35 minutes continously causes some small puddles. I use the cycle/soak option on the Rachio controller. Are you thinking my problems may be too much or too little water?

I really dont want to start over. Can you recommend a specific seed/brand/mix that I can use in the fall?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I think there is something else going on besides the seed. There's a lot of damage to parts and the color variation is odd in the other parts. What about the neighbors' lawns? Do they look the same? Do they also have the brown patches? What height are you cutting at?

I don't know if a different seed is going to fix the problem but I like tall fescue and kentucky bluegrass.

The other chemical you're thinking of is probably propiconazole. Azoxystrobin is the stronger of the two on the most important diseases so you did the right thing.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

tgreen said:


> I think there is something else going on besides the seed. There's a lot of damage to parts and the color variation is odd in the other parts. What about the neighbors' lawns? Do they look the same? Do they also have the brown patches? What height are you cutting at?
> 
> I don't know if a different seed is going to fix the problem but I like tall fescue and kentucky bluegrass.
> 
> The other chemical you're thinking of is probably propiconazole. Azoxystrobin is the stronger of the two on the most important diseases so you did the right thing.


The neighbor to my left has brown areas in the one section that connects to my grass. It doesn't seem as bad as mine. Neighbor to the right has no grass that touches my property. Just a fence. Across the street has no problems. The red line is the property line. I am cutting at 3"


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@bentz69 You have to know how much water do you put down. Puddles can be low spots and/or heavy clay soil. It does not mean you put a lot or not enough water.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

I have a ton of empty tuna cans Ive been saving to get a measurement but have yet to do it....Ill lay them out and get a reading to report back


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I'm sort of stumped. Anything that you do or don't do to your turf that the neighbors with the good grass are doing? It would not hurt to get a soil sample, just don't use soil savvy.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

@tgreen i agree, with most of what has been done I'm guessing a soil chemistry issue.

OP what did you do last fall and this spring for fertility? How many lbs of N did you apply in the fall?

It looks like the grass is lacking nutrients.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> @tgreen i agree, with most of what has been done I'm guessing a soil chemistry issue.
> 
> OP what did you do last fall and this spring for fertility? How many lbs of N did you apply in the fall?
> 
> It looks like the grass is lacking nutrients.





tgreen said:


> I'm sort of stumped. Anything that you do or don't do to your turf that the neighbors with the good grass are doing? It would not hurt to get a soil sample, just don't use soil savvy.


I keep a list on my phone ....

9/22 - front and back - mow to 2", rake clippings and blow, 2.5 yards topsoil added to front and back, 25lbs seed added to front, 40lbs seed to back, seed raked in, 25lbs Scott's starter fert added to back and front

11/14 - scotts lawn food added front and back

4/5 - front only - clean up, cut, urea sprayed @ 16oz per 5 gallons/water (0.2lb of N/ksqft)Watered in 3 hours later

4/6 - back only - clean up, cut, urea sprayed @ 16oz per 5 gallons/water x2 (0.2lb of N/ksqft) Watered in 3 hours later

4/7 - prodiame sprayed, 
- front - 0.6oz w/2 gallons to fence side. 1oz w/3 gallons to main front area

- back - 1.9oz total w/5 gallons water. 
-water each zone for 15min, back 18m

4/11 - back - moss out added and water in

4/12 - back - ortho weed b gone. All 32oz added.

4/15 - front - roundup for lawns. All 32oz added.

5/6 - urea sprayed front and back.

5/29 - 2 bags diseaseEX and 2 bags milogranite added to front. Watered in 20 minutes per zone

5/31 - 2 bags diseaseEX and 2 bags milogranite added to back.

Late may into late June. Getting brown spots front and back.


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

I think you have a problem with the seed selection. 40% ryegrass will outcompete everything else in the mix then it dies off in heat or cold stress.

Your options would be to overseed rye grass yearly or multiple times per year depending on how nice you want it to look. This is not cheap requirimg 4lb per 1000 overseed rate. Or do a reno with 100% kbg

Almost everyone that does reno or overseed with ryegrass starts off with "great results" but unfortunately it is only temporary.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

My backyard has similar problems


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Jconnelly6b was right. There is barely any nitrogen on this lawn since last year.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> @Jconnelly6b was right. There is barely any nitrogen on this lawn since last year.


I definitely missed numerous weeks of spraying urea. Only blame myself for that. I got the milogranite down at the end of May but I guess it was too late. I just put down another round of milogranite today (simply following their recommendations of when to apply).

If there as ample nitrogen in the ground would this grass have survived the heat?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

It would have certainly helped to push growth and drive the roots deeper.

If you get enough moisture I think you may see some decent bounce back from the milorganite.

Most newer/elite cultivars of cool season grasses recommend between 4-6 lbs of nitrogen per year. Don't be bashful!

Also which spreader do you have? Looking back at your pictures looks like you aren't getting the most even application of your amendments. If you have a Scott's look on YouTube for numerous videos on how to prevent the fertilizer lines.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> It would have certainly helped to push growth and drive the roots deeper.
> 
> If you get enough moisture I think you may see some decent bounce back from the milorganite.
> 
> ...


Im going to increase the water through this July heat. I have the scotts 23lb edgegaurd spreader.

I was at Lowes and a Scotts rep was there. Ofcourse he trying to sell me on scotts stuff and suggested that I try the summerguard product. Regardless, if I should be applying more nitrogen and I just put down milogranite, can the summerguard be applied as well? Its a 20-0-8


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

I don't think the summergard would hurt, but if you just put down milo I would wait a bit if it were me.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Slowly getting worse....ugh


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

For reference, this past fall and through the winter. Held the color very well compared to the neighbors in the winter


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

@bentz69 Some thoughts on your situation.

Your seed is a shade mix. Thats why you noticed better growth and color along the tree/fence line. Do an overseed with TTTF or a renovation with KBG around Labor Day weekend.

Check your irrigation. Do the tuna can test! You need to know how long it takes to get 1" of water per zone. Don't guess. For example, on my lawn i need to water 3.5 hrs per zone to get 1". Right now you want 1.5" per week.

Feed your lawn. Milorganite, Ringer, Purely Organic Lawn Food...etc anything slow release.

You have a fungus. I;m guessing Dollar Spot because every lawn on LI has it right now including me. Blanket spray 2oz./M of Propiconazole and repeat in 2 weeks.
This is 5/13 Pre Fungus 


6/17 Fungus damage 


7/5 after 2 apps of Propiconazole, 1.5" water per week and 0.25#/M of Milo


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

SantiCazorla said:


> Your seed is a shade mix. Thats why you noticed better growth and color along the tree/fence line. Do an overseed with TTTF or a renovation with KBG around Labor Day weekend.


Makes sense. I would rather try to overseed and see what happens throughout the year and into next summer then attempting another reno.



SantiCazorla said:


> Check your irrigation. Do the tuna can test! You need to know how long it takes to get 1" of water per zone. Don't guess. For example, on my lawn i need to water 3.5 hrs per zone to get 1". Right now you want 1.5" per week.


Agreed. I will get this done asap.



SantiCazorla said:


> Feed your lawn. Milorganite, Ringer, Purely Organic Lawn Food...etc anything slow release.


I was following the milograntite recommendation of memorial day, 4th of July, labor day, thanksgiving. Is this enough nitrogen assuming Im using thier recommend rate? I see many things online about going heavy on the milogranite. Should I add 1 or 2 more applications in addition to the labor day and thanksgiving feedings?



SantiCazorla said:


> You have a fungus. I;m guessing Dollar Spot because every lawn on LI has it right now including me. Blanket spray 2oz./M of Propiconazole and repeat in 2 weeks.


Your lawn certainly looks similiar to mine. Ill give the propicanzole a shot.


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

You want to put down the recommended N amount for your grass type. For FF im not sure but for *** i aim for 5lbs/M per year. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=753 This post by @g-man explains in detail what most of us do for Fall N so skipping Milo on Thanksgiving is good idea.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Milo schedule is just a marketing scheme. It makes no sense in relation to turf. It makes sense to spread their demand.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

I'm not sure that's poa. It might be fine fescue that died off. I hate fine fescue, especially when it's in the sun. I would suggest dethatching it and overseeding with a good Perennial Rye, Bluegrass blend. The bluegrass takes forever to germinate but the rye should jump up quick and fill in those spots, it also blends pretty well with bluegrass. I would just strongly suggest not using Scott's grass seed. Not that the cultivars are terrible but it seems their KBG has a bunch of poa in it with the .30 other crop. Also Scott's gives you half the seed for the price because of the water smart coating thing.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

I appreciate all the help. So for now I laid down the milogranite several days ago and will also apply the summergaurd in another week or so. Purchased a gallon of propicanzole and will try the 2oz/1k sqft this friday/saturday when it arrives followed with a second app in 2 weeks. Regardless, I have plenty of propicanzole for preventative measures in the future.

A fall detatching followed with overseeding is planned as well. Obviously everyone has thier own opinion which is welcomed but when I see members recommending either TTTF or PRG for the seed of choice, I have no idea which way to go :|

Perhaphs a TTTF/PRG mix is the best option for overseeding? I have no idea :dunno:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

bentz69 said:


> I appreciate all the help. So for now I laid down the milogranite several days ago and will also apply the summergaurd in another week or so. Purchased a gallon of propicanzole and will try the 2oz/1k sqft this friday/saturday when it arrives followed with a second app in 2 weeks. Regardless, I have plenty of propicanzole for preventative measures in the future.
> 
> A fall detatching followed with overseeding is planned as well. Obviously everyone has thier own opinion which is welcomed but when I see members recommending either TTTF or PRG for the seed of choice, I have no idea which way to go :|
> 
> Perhaphs a TTTF/PRG mix is the best option for overseeding? I have no idea :dunno:


Depends on the attributes you want. PR for low mowing. TF for better heat tolerance. Mixed species lawns are generally overseeded in a manner that maintains the desired mixture of grasses. A mix of both is fine for general use, but keep the TF percentage higher, as a rule of thumb, say at 60 or more by weight in any overseeding mix that uses both, as it's a weaker seedling than PR. If there is already lots of PR in the lawn and the amount of Fescue is dwindling, then a 100% TTTF seed would be ideal...don't need to add more of what is already abundant. Overseeding rate in lbs of seed per thousand square feet is based upon both the condition of the lawn, as well the seed ratios of species it contains.

Make sure to water the right amount over the coming weeks after the fertilizer to supplement the rain when needed, and get it through the Summer.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Depends on the attributes you want. PR for low mowing. TF for better heat tolerance. Mixed species lawns are overseeded to maintain the desired mixture of grasses. A mix of both is fine for general use, but keep the TF percentage at 60 or more by weight in any overseeding mix that uses both, as it's a weaker seedling than PR. If there is already lots of PR in the lawn and the amount of Fescue us dwindling, then a 100% TTTF seed would be ideal...don't need to add more of what is already abundant.
> 
> Make sure to water the right amount over the coming weeks after the fertilizer to supplement the rain when needed, and get it through the Summer.


I have always mowed at 3" and plan to stay like that. Considering the seed I used for my reno was 40% PRG, overseeding with 100% TTTF looks like the direction Ill be heading.

Now onto seed selection. Keep it simple with Scotts tall fescue mix or spend some money and go with GCI (quick search came up with this 100% tttf)....although a see tttf and kbg mix also


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## doverosx (Aug 7, 2019)

Jconnelly6b said:


> It would have certainly helped to push growth and drive the roots deeper.
> 
> If you get enough moisture I think you may see some decent bounce back from the milorganite.
> 
> ...


That doesn't necessarily mean you need to fertilize 4lbs of N, OM is also available as N.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

bentz69 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Depends on the attributes you want. PR for low mowing. TF for better heat tolerance. Mixed species lawns are overseeded to maintain the desired mixture of grasses. A mix of both is fine for general use, but keep the TF percentage at 60 or more by weight in any overseeding mix that uses both, as it's a weaker seedling than PR. If there is already lots of PR in the lawn and the amount of Fescue us dwindling, then a 100% TTTF seed would be ideal...don't need to add more of what is already abundant.
> ...


Quite a few of us in the NE have bought seed from The Hogan Company and been very very happy. Your climate is similar to mine and I seeded with The Hogan Blend  and love it. Great color, drought/disease resistance, and spring green up. I know @ericgautier among other NJ guys have used it as well and love it. IMO it's a great value for high perfoming cultivars, and when you call them to place an order they are super helpful.... will stay on the phone with you for 20 mins helping you decide on a mix if you want the help.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scotts TTTF seed is ok, and I've used it. But some of the varieties seem a little more susceptible to brown patch than what Hogan sells (or GCI, etc.). Actually, Hogan once told me a story about how they named one of the varieties (ironically one that Scotts was using at the time, so they couldn't even buy it anymore to sell).

All of these blends change over time based on what's currently available.

If you want convenience (ordering online) maybe go with GCI.

Any of them will work well.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

doverosx said:


> Jconnelly6b said:
> 
> 
> > It would have certainly helped to push growth and drive the roots deeper.
> ...


And returning clippings too.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Starting to plan this fall overseed and Ive run into a hurdle. In early April I didnt expect to be overseeing this coming fall and put down prodiamine at a 7 month rate which brings me into almost November.

Going with the recommendations here I wanted to overseed in late September. Definitely dethatching first, cut low, _possibly _aerate then using GCI's TTTF and overseed at 5lbs/1k with Scotts starter fertilizer. I used scotts in the past but Im open to better alternatives

I dont have a dethatcher yet but I will be getting the agri-fab tow type or the sun joe electric. Can I do anything about this prodiamine barrier? Would adding extra weight to the tow dethatcher in order to have the tines get deeper into the dirt help at all? What about adding additional topsoil after dethathcing?


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

@Jconnelly6b @SantiCazorla @g-man @Green :wave: ^any thoughts on the above post?


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

If i had to guess, a heavy (like 3 passes) with a aerator should get you mostly there.

If your worried throw a handful of seed down in a shadier part of your yard and rake it in and keep it moist for a few days. If you dont have any signs of germination after 7-10 days with TTTF dont put the rest of the seed down this season.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

You sure about late Sept? Sounds a few weeks late. I would think early to mid Sept in LI/coastal CT would be better, and doable for TTTF seed. KBG...start even earlier.

For the fert, I'd specifically pick the Scotts w/Mesotrione to prevent the weeds. Put it down at the same time as the seed (or within a couple of days after) so it doesn't damage the new grass. I think the bag rate is the ideal rate for it, but I don't know the exact calculations vs the liquid. You can use the regular Scotts starter fert without Mesotrione for the post-mowing app (low rate).


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

If you run a dethatcher we during seeding you should be fine for germination after your pre-m. Just scratch the soil up good.

I would personally skip the aeration.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> If i had to guess, a heavy (like 3 passes) with a aerator should get you mostly there.
> 
> If your worried throw a handful of seed down in a shadier part of your yard and rake it in and keep it moist for a few days. If you dont have any signs of germination after 7-10 days with TTTF dont put the rest of the seed down this season.


Extra passes sounds like a plan.



Green said:


> You sure about late Sept? Sounds a few weeks late. I would think early to mid Sept in LI/coastal CT would be better, and doable for TTTF seed. KBG...start even earlier.
> 
> For the fert, I'd specifically pick the Scotts w/Mesotrione to prevent the weeds. Put it down at the same time as the seed (or within a couple of days after) so it doesn't damage the new grass. I think the bag rate is the ideal rate for it, but I don't know the exact calculations vs the liquid. You can use the regular Scotts starter fert without Mesotrione for the post-mowing app (low rate).


 :thumbup:


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## BadDogPSD (Jul 9, 2020)

We had a similar issue at our last house, the damage appears very similar. Treated for fungus several times with no improvement. Turned out to be Billbugs were causing the damage. Have you checked for larvae?


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> If you run a dethatcher we during seeding you should be fine for germination after your pre-m. Just scratch the soil up good.
> 
> I would personally skip the aeration.


I noticed about 5 random weeds popping up (I think its crabgrass). Possibly spots that didnt get enough coverage while spraying preM or its breaking down already :dunno:


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

propicanzole sprayed front and back at 2oz/m on 7/12. Let it sit on the grass for about 8 hours then watered in.

Found these 3 new brown spots on the back lawn today. I swear it wasn't there yesterday. No pets, no foot traffic. Stumped....


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

bentz69 said:


> propicanzole sprayed front and back at 2oz/m on 7/12. Let it sit on the grass for about 8 hours then watered in.
> 
> Found these 3 new brown spots on the back lawn today. I swear it wasn't there yesterday. No pets, no foot traffic. Stumped....


I had a few spots that came out of no where like this as well. They popped up when we went from cool spring weather is amazon weather. I checked and sprayed for everything(chinch bugs, grubs, fungus,etc). I checked to see if there was anything like rocks that caused it and I was stumped myself. I did get better over time but I did have a pile of dead grass after raking it up. Did you dig and check for grubs?


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