# Should I move away from TTTF in a transition zone? (7B Maryland)



## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

I'm in a transition zone (MD) and I feel every year my lawn does great up until July. I follow almost every best practice of the guides defined on this site around overseeding routines (I followed this one https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6250 by @ForsheeMS this year), fertilizing, watering, etc, but every year my lawn just gets scorched and ruined in summer.

Here is the lawn the beginning of July where it was doing okay for the most part showing just a few brown spot.









I overseeded with Regenerate/Rowdy TTTF last fall season and everything had been doing great. For the amount of effort I put into my lawn, it's pretty saddening to see more green on my surrounding neighbors who hardly do anything (even if some of their green is mostly weeds).

Most of the dead spots (assuming dead as it is pulling up easily) are in the sun most of the day, while the shady parts of my lawn and backyard is doing alright with a few fungus spots.

I originally thought this was a fungus problem entirely, but I've been rotating fungicides throughout the heat and the problem keeps expanding just like prior years. Also, this problem isn't occurring much in the shade which I'd expect fungus to be more problematic in this high heat/high humidity weather.

In terms of watering, I do 1-2 inches of water per week with my irrigation (Hunter MP rotators) offset by how much it rained that week.

It's been consistently high 80s and 90s in MD, but not really atypical to happen some parts of MD summers.

I'm attaching some photos, but I'm wondering if I should just switch away from tall fescue at this point? By the time I overseed in a month or so, I'm guessing half my front yard lawn will be scorched and it is pretty frustrating to keep repeating this process.

I know this is a a bit of a common transition zone problem, but the amount of my fescue that goes every year compared to others seems really high so should I consider changing to something else? I'm even using the top rated NTEP TTTF seed for my area. My neighbor has Zoysia which is thriving in this heat, but it looks pretty bad the remaining 80% of the year.

Current pictures:


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Join the club lol. Kind of one of those things, you want your lawn to look great June-August or the other months? It's definitely frustrating but the good news is Sept will be here soon and your lawn will look great again.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

I've seen some REALLY NICE zoysia lawns up there.......however, it'll also be dormant (brown) for several months. You could offset that by overseeding with annual rye.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

You should check out Ryan Knorr's YT channel, he's been doing pretty well keeping his rye strong in some crazy hot temps for his area. That might help you with your fescue.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> You should check out Ryan Knorr's YT channel, he's been doing pretty well keeping his rye strong in some crazy hot temps for his area. That might help you with your fescue.


Isn't Ryan way up north pretty far from the transition zone?


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Yes but growing rye in crazy high temps this year. Similar to your fescue in high temps this year.


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## jmmtjoy (Nov 11, 2019)

Have you ever figured out exactly how much water your lawn needs? By measuring how much it soaks in when watered rather than just dropping 1-2" a week? Could be a start. Also I know syringing is pretty popular in hot climates. Water isn't always the answer and sometimes less is better than too much. Listen to Ryan Knorrs podcast from 7/23/20. Has some good info.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Tell us a little about how the lawn is managed September through June, and your fungicide schedule.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I would try some bluegrass if it was me.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Bluegrass generally doesn't do as well as TTTF in heat, but a mix of TTF/KBG can work very well. With a mix, you get less impact from disease. There is no reason you can't have a healthy, green, TTTF, TTTF/KBG mix, or KBG lawn during hot summers with 90+ temps for weeks at a time.

Common problems are too little water and disease. Dead grass looks like dead grass, though, so it is very hard to tell what killed it once it is dead. If you have some struggling areas, then you can get a better feel for what is causing the decline. Lesions on the leaf suggests fungus. Needling and darker color suggest not enough water.


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## KansasJayhawk (Mar 30, 2020)

Sounds like a water issue. TTTF, if watered properly, shouldn't have any issue with those temps. I suspect regularly spot spraying areas that get more sun would go a long way. Also, you might consider putting hydretain down to help those sunny areas retain more water.

Have you probed the soil in the areas that are dying?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

KansasJayhawk said:


> Sounds like a water issue. TTTF, if watered properly, shouldn't have any issue with those temps. I suspect regularly spot spraying areas that get more sun would go a long way. Also, you might consider putting hydretain down to help those sunny areas retain more water.
> 
> Have you probed the soil in the areas that are dying?


I suspect more of a fungus issue then watering unless he watering at the wrong time of day which is leading to fungus. Like others said be curious what the yearly fert, fungicide, watering schedule looks like.

For me anyways it seems like when my TTTF starts struggling in the summer 90% of it can be contributed to brown patch vs not watering enough. That's just my theory but I could be wrong. Either way growing grass in the transition zone is not easy. You can grow anything just nothing will thrives here year round.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> I suspect more of a fungus issue then watering unless he watering at the wrong time of day which is leading to fungus. Like others said be curious what the yearly fert, fungicide, watering schedule looks like.


Personally I'm looking at the pictures, seeing crabgrass everywhere, and somehow I'm skeptical fungicide is being applied in a timely and consistent manner when pre-emergent is only one or two applications per year and it was obviously not done, or not done properly.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

ABC123 said:


> I would try some bluegrass if it was me.


I usually overseed with a 10% KBG mix


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

KansasJayhawk said:


> Sounds like a water issue. TTTF, if watered properly, shouldn't have any issue with those temps. I suspect regularly spot spraying areas that get more sun would go a long way. Also, you might consider putting hydretain down to help those sunny areas retain more water.
> 
> Have you probed the soil in the areas that are dying?


Soil test came back okay outside of low potassium which I supplemented a few months ago


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


> KansasJayhawk said:
> 
> 
> > Sounds like a water issue. TTTF, if watered properly, shouldn't have any issue with those temps. I suspect regularly spot spraying areas that get more sun would go a long way. Also, you might consider putting hydretain down to help those sunny areas retain more water.
> ...


I usually water deep once a week around 4-10am. I'm not seeing any grass dying in the shady areas and I've been rotating azoxystrobin/propiconazole granules since before I had any major spots which led me to believe it most likely wasn't much of a fungus issue. I don't fertilize in the spring outside of 1-2 apps of Milorganite and a potassium app if my soil test shows it is low.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> > I suspect more of a fungus issue then watering unless he watering at the wrong time of day which is leading to fungus. Like others said be curious what the yearly fert, fungicide, watering schedule looks like.
> ...


I've never used crabgrass pre-emergent because I've never gotten enough to mind. I'm probably getting slightly more than usual this year because I edged the overgrown sidewalk driveway slicing 1-2 inches of turf off that left a small gap between the hardscape and lawn which looks to be where most of it is coming in.


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## ScottieBones (Apr 2, 2020)

mot359 said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> > KansasJayhawk said:
> ...


 I generally follow the less frequent and more deeply watering, but have found that my TTTF just needs more frequent watering when it's scorching hot in july here in the Charlotte area. I've been watering pretty heavy every 3-4 days since we got in the 90s and it's holding on pretty well. Also, I've stopped using propicanizole in July/Aug here because it it's a group3/DMI fungicide, which has growth regulatory effects. The heat already regulates growth enough. lol. So far doing better this season.


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## Bigfeather1 (Jun 11, 2019)

Here, on the eastern shore in Delaware. Overseeded with a Hogan mix last year (TTTF) . Seems the more I stay on top of my irrigation system the better my 2 acre yard looks. After first heat wave I added more water to areas that showed stress, either by increasing nozzle size or lengthening zone run time. A couple border areas that I was trying to cheat a little bit and run 360 degree rotors I adjusted back to 180 degree. Gave those spots twice as much water. I feel better watering habits is the reason my lawn is still green. My seven zones run for 40 minutes 3 times a week, some with # 8 nozzles. Hope this gives you something to reference to.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

If grass is dying in the sun, but not the shade, that suggests not enough water or a root problem to me. Root problems could be fungal related, grubs, soil, etc. Root diseases are harder to diagnose than foliar. My KBG lawn in St. Louis where daily highs have been pretty much 90-95 for the last three weeks is still green, but not growing much, so your temps would not be enough alone to force dormancy or lead to dying out. There is something other than just heat going on.


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

Something I learned this year and it's paying off big time, is running the zones twice.

Kudos to GCI Turf Pete 

It takes me around 25 to 30 minutes per zone to get around half inch of water. So I'm running the zones for 15 minutes (9 Zones) and once all the zones are done, I start again for another 15 minutes each zone rather than running 30 minutes each.

The reason behind this is to let the ground get saturated with the first round of water and give time to the soil to soften otherwise you get water runoff.

Doing this in the morning before it gets hot and I'm doing it when I know the day is going to be in the upper 80s

We are in the 90s right now in my area and only saw 2 rains in several weeks and my TTTF is doing great



All credit goes to Pete.


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## KansasJayhawk (Mar 30, 2020)

I think Pete's approach is really smart.

I also tend to agree with bernstem due to the shade vs. sun information. Maybe someone else mentioned it and I missed it but it could be grubs as I think grubs aren't as likely to live in shaded areas.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

@mot359 
Have you considered that the dead spots are poa annua? It's hard to tell after it does off, but those spots look like the areas of my Yard that have poa a.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

KansasJayhawk said:


> I think Pete's approach is really smart.
> 
> I also tend to agree with bernstem due to the shade vs. sun information. Maybe someone else mentioned it and I missed it but it could be grubs as I think grubs aren't as likely to live in shaded areas.


That's an idea, I guess I'll have to check next year when in the beginning stages of it again though as they probably are gone by now.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

Thejarrod said:


> @mot359
> Have you considered that the dead spots are poa annua? It's hard to tell after it does off, but those spots look like the areas of my Yard that have poa a.


I didn't notice any lighter green shade that stood out to me. I've had issues with poa triv in the past in the backyard though.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

LawnSolo said:


> Something I learned this year and it's paying off big time, is running the zones twice.
> 
> Kudos to GCI Turf Pete
> 
> ...


Are you syringing during the day or just watering in the morning when you know it'll be hot? What time of day?


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

I live where you do. In my experience, bluegrass seems happier in full sun than TTTF. TTTF seems to be best with some shade. And I can't keep fine fescue even in the deep shade green in the summer to save my life. LOL. It's too fine of a line between enough water and too much for the FF.

I'm going to be overseeding with the Black Beauty Ultra mix and the Deep Shade mix this year to see what happens.


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

mot359 said:


> Are you syringing during the day or just watering in the morning when you know it'll be hot? What time of day?


Just watering in the morning at 5:30 AM

I promise you will notice the difference.

My only regret is I wish I did the split/double irrigation before.

Every year I will have the cool grass vs hot weather battle where the cool grass will go dormant. The standard 1 or 2 inch of water rule per week was not working for me at all.

Until...running the zones twice  50/50 and doing it the morning before the hot day starts.


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## kmw (Jun 27, 2020)

Check for chinch bugs. I've seen them in fescue (not just fine) and bluegrass this summer.


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

LawnSolo said:


> mot359 said:
> 
> 
> > Are you syringing during the day or just watering in the morning when you know it'll be hot? What time of day?
> ...


So you pretty much just stop deep waterings when it gets this hot? Seems to go against all the advice I'm reading, but the results you have show it seems to work so I should probably give that a try


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## mot359 (Sep 28, 2019)

kmw said:


> Check for chinch bugs. I've seen them in fescue (not just fine) and bluegrass this summer.


Dug up a few dead spots today and didn't see anything


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

mot359 said:


> So you pretty much just stop deep waterings when it gets this hot? Seems to go against all the advice I'm reading, but the results you have show it seems to work so I should probably give that a try


Well, it is deep watering but with a twist.

Rather than running 30 minutes per zone (in my case) in one shot. I'm splitting it to 15 minutes per zone and once all the 9 zones program is completed, I start all over again 15 minutes per zone. So I do the deep irrigation but split in 2 to let the ground absorb and avoid water runoff's. The difference is very noticeable.


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## kmw (Jun 27, 2020)

j4c11 said:


> Personally I'm looking at the pictures, seeing crabgrass everywhere, and somehow I'm skeptical fungicide is being applied in a timely and consistent manner when pre-emergent is only one or two applications per year and it was obviously not done, or not done properly.


I don't know OP but this sounds like a dead on description of me lol. But in defense of we n00bs,, correctly applying pre-emergent is really hard (at least at first). Because even though it's easy to tell people "just apply it when soil temps reach 55°", it's still really confusing because that doesn't clarify at what depth the soil temp should be. And the big box stores usually only have PE combined with fertilizer, which likely conflicts with our fert programs. And most importantly it has taken me a year to (a) get a decent spreader and (b) get patient enough to evenly apply anything.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

mot359 said:


> So you pretty much just stop deep waterings when it gets this hot? Seems to go against all the advice I'm reading, but the results you have show it seems to work so I should probably give that a try


I have had the same experience as the others. I think the ground dries out too fast which leads to getting hotter surface temps faster and you just can't wait that long.

Infrequent deep watering might be good for roots but if the plant burns up there is nothing for deep roots to support. Plus, if you have irrigation, deep roots aren't as big of a deal. I'd rather have green grass with shallower roots and than brown grass with deep roots. If I need to water a bit more for that, fine with me. That is why I got irrigation to begin with.


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## dsc123 (Mar 22, 2020)

FWIW, my neighbor has Zoysia and it looks great so long as you don't mind the brown winter. 5 miles away, UMD Golf Course put in bermuda a few years back and its done really well. But again, its brown until May or so. Another golf course out towards the Annapolis area was having a lot of trouble with their bentgrass fairways and tees and just replaced it all with bermuda.

I thought about doing Zoysia but I don't think I get enough sun.


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