# Grass seed questions? ASK ME!



## Oregonseed

Hello all,

I am new to the forum but not new to grass seed. I live in Oregon where many of your cool season grass seeds are grown, I contract certain varieties with growers and oversee millions of pounds. If you have any questions I want to answer them. Seems there is not much education on the back bone of seed production systems. I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong. I want educate as many as possible so you can be more informed.

Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.


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## paulywalnutz

What processes do the production facilities put in place for sod quality seed?


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## Shindoman

Nice to have an expert offering help to us. Not sure if these are the kinds of questions you mean but here goes.
I'm using a FF/Colonial Bent grass blend to try and achieve a very fine bladed English type lawn. Rather than take the drastic step of a full renovation I'm been overseeding my original lawn that was a sod blend of PRG/KBG. I'm starting my 3rd year of trying this and I see a marked change but it seems like it will take forever. The FF/Bent should dominate in my coastal climate. Do you think I'm wasting my time and should do a full Reno? I hate to kill my lawn as it is thick and healthy. 
Also, is 14 days or longer correct for the FF/Bent germination? 
I love driving down the I5 and seeing all those fields of grass seed growing!


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## BXMurphy

Oregonseed said:


> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.


Wow! SO cool...

Thanks for stopping in!

How do you harvest just the seed and prevent weed seeds from mixing in?

Boy, that's neat!

Murph


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## Green

Welcome, OregonSeed!

I do have a question...I hope none of this is insider info, as I'm really interested in hearing the answer...

How common is Poa Trivialis contamination in various seed? For example, Gold Tag/sod quality, Blue Tag 0/0, and then the stuff that has a bit of other crop and/or weed in it? (Single variety KBG, TTTF, TTPR, FF, etc.)

Part 2: what are the major sources of this contamination? And what do growers do to combat this issue?

I actually have a few more follow up questions, too, but I'll wait a bit for those.

Thanks!


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## Oregonseed

paulywalnutz said:


> What processes do the production facilities put in place for sod quality seed?


Sod quality seed is solely based on what the test results are. The processing facility (seed cleaning warehouse) does not do anything differently. They just clean the seed to remove dirt and straw particles. The field needs to be ultra clean and weed free like my picture for it to have a chance at being sod quality. Great question, hope it helps!


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## Oregonseed

Shindoman said:


> Nice to have an expert offering help to us. Not sure if these are the kinds of questions you mean but here goes.
> I'm using a FF/Colonial Bent grass blend to try and achieve a very fine bladed English type lawn. Rather than take the drastic step of a full renovation I'm been overseeding my original lawn that was a sod blend of PRG/KBG. I'm starting my 3rd year of trying this and I see a marked change but it seems like it will take forever. The FF/Bent should dominate in my coastal climate. Do you think I'm wasting my time and should do a full Reno? I hate to kill my lawn as it is thick and healthy.
> Also, is 14 days or longer correct for the FF/Bent germination?
> I love driving down the I5 and seeing all those fields of grass seed growing!


I think it will take a lifetime to convert and you will always find old grass types popping up. I would do a full Reno. No till, cover with peat moss, soil, bark dust, etc.

My yard was a ff/bent blend when I bought it. Full Reno to fescue. Couldn't be happier


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## SNOWBOB11

Oregonseed said:


> I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong.


I think for the most part the people on the forum do a great job at answering questions with correct information. Also most regular members are not clueless when it comes to grass.


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## Shindoman

Oregonseed said:


> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to have an expert offering help to us. Not sure if these are the kinds of questions you mean but here goes.
> I'm using a FF/Colonial Bent grass blend to try and achieve a very fine bladed English type lawn. Rather than take the drastic step of a full renovation I'm been overseeding my original lawn that was a sod blend of PRG/KBG. I'm starting my 3rd year of trying this and I see a marked change but it seems like it will take forever. The FF/Bent should dominate in my coastal climate. Do you think I'm wasting my time and should do a full Reno? I hate to kill my lawn as it is thick and healthy.
> Also, is 14 days or longer correct for the FF/Bent germination?
> I love driving down the I5 and seeing all those fields of grass seed growing!
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will take a lifetime to convert and you will always find old grass types popping up. I would do a full Reno. No till, cover with peat moss, soil, bark dust, etc.
> 
> My yard was a ff/bent blend when I bought it. Full Reno to fescue. Couldn't be happier
Click to expand...

Thanks for replying. So why get rid of the ff/Bent to go with Fescue?


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## Green

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> I think for the most part the people on the forum do a great job at answering questions with correct information. Also most regular members are not clueless when it comes to grass.
Click to expand...

I think people try their best, but sometimes there are things that we either aren't sure of, or don't have inside info about, and therefore engage in some level of speculation from time-to-time.

@Oregonseed, if there is any pervasive incorrect info being circulated on this particular site about anything to do with grass seed, I would invite you to set the record straight on those particular topics...please and thanks.


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## ThickAndGreen

What are some of the most common misconceptions you see?


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## llO0DQLE

Oregonseed said:


> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to have an expert offering help to us. Not sure if these are the kinds of questions you mean but here goes.
> I'm using a FF/Colonial Bent grass blend to try and achieve a very fine bladed English type lawn. Rather than take the drastic step of a full renovation I'm been overseeding my original lawn that was a sod blend of PRG/KBG. I'm starting my 3rd year of trying this and I see a marked change but it seems like it will take forever. The FF/Bent should dominate in my coastal climate. Do you think I'm wasting my time and should do a full Reno? I hate to kill my lawn as it is thick and healthy.
> Also, is 14 days or longer correct for the FF/Bent germination?
> I love driving down the I5 and seeing all those fields of grass seed growing!
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will take a lifetime to convert and you will always find old grass types popping up. I would do a full Reno. No till, cover with peat moss, soil, bark dust, etc.
> 
> My yard was a ff/bent blend when I bought it. Full Reno to fescue. Couldn't be happier
Click to expand...

@Shindoman I'm not an expert and I've read of your posts in the past stating you didn't want to do the full reno and just convert it slowly. I didn't want to say anything because you seemed to be really averse to a reno or Round Up, not sure which is the case. I'm glade Oregonseed stated so as I concur with him and believe you should've just done a full reno. IMO, you could've had the lawn you wanted 3 or 4 years ago. I've done a couple renos and although it seems drastic, by about day 90 you already have a full lawn really, maybe minus a few small bare spots but small bare spots can happen in the life of a lawn anyway. And when you've had your lawn for a year or two, and see that it is exactly what you wanted, you'll see that the reno, although a lot of work, was really only a blip in the life of a lawn. You've done multiple overseeds/topdressings/scalping etc. You've done a lot of the same work of a reno without getting the results you wanted.


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## llO0DQLE

I'm also interested to hear about the misconceptions.


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## Oregonseed

BXMurphy said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow! SO cool...
> 
> Thanks for stopping in!
> 
> How do you harvest just the seed and prevent weed seeds from mixing in?
> 
> Boy, that's neat!
> 
> Murph
Click to expand...

The grass is swathed into rows and laid out to dry for a few weeks. A combine then comes through and separates the seed from the straw and chaff. Some weed seeds are able to be removed in the combine or at the seed cleaning facility where the seed is cleaned and bagged.

Few harvest pics!


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Welcome, OregonSeed!
> 
> I do have a question...I hope none of this is insider info, as I'm really interested in hearing the answer...
> 
> How common is Poa Trivialis contamination in various seed? For example, Gold Tag/sod quality, Blue Tag 0/0, and then the stuff that has a bit of other crop and/or weed in it? (Single variety KBG, TTTF, TTPR, FF, etc.)
> 
> Part 2: what are the major sources of this contamination? And what do growers do to combat this issue?
> 
> I actually have a few more follow up questions, too, but I'll wait a bit for those.
> 
> Thanks!


Great questions, I'll try to keep it short and not babble.

Poa triv is fairly common. Each lot of seed (55,000lbs or so) gets sampled and tested. Obviously not every single seed is tested so there is always a chance you get the one bag that has a weed seed or two in it. Our testing process is not perfect. I have seen fields with poa annua test fine for sod quality. But I know somewhere in those thousands of bags there is poa. If the tag has any percentage other crop/weed it could be anything. 
0.01% other crop can be as high as 18 poa annua seeds per 1 pound of grass seed!

Part 2. Anything can cause contamination..wind, birds, some soil types and conditions favour certain weeds. Grass seed growers have limited chemical options for grass weeds, many chemicals that homeowners and golf courses can use are not labeled for grass seed production. I could tall for years about chemicals but that gives you some insight 😀
Best tool growers have is spot spraying with a back pack sprayer (glyphosate) and a hoeing out weeds. It works 100% of the time but very expensive and takes a long time to walk 100 acre fields!


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## Oregonseed

Shindoman said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> My yard was a ff/bent blend when I bought it. Full Reno to fescue. Couldn't be happier
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for replying. So why get rid of the ff/Bent to go with Fescue?
Click to expand...

Personal preference. I like one species of grass in a lawn and more specifically like tall fescue than any others


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## Shindoman

llO0DQLE said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice to have an expert offering help to us. Not sure if these are the kinds of questions you mean but here goes.
> I'm using a FF/Colonial Bent grass blend to try and achieve a very fine bladed English type lawn. Rather than take the drastic step of a full renovation I'm been overseeding my original lawn that was a sod blend of PRG/KBG. I'm starting my 3rd year of trying this and I see a marked change but it seems like it will take forever. The FF/Bent should dominate in my coastal climate. Do you think I'm wasting my time and should do a full Reno? I hate to kill my lawn as it is thick and healthy.
> Also, is 14 days or longer correct for the FF/Bent germination?
> I love driving down the I5 and seeing all those fields of grass seed growing!
> 
> 
> 
> I think it will take a lifetime to convert and you will always find old grass types popping up. I would do a full Reno. No till, cover with peat moss, soil, bark dust, etc.
> 
> My yard was a ff/bent blend when I bought it. Full Reno to fescue. Couldn't be happier
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @Shindoman I'm not an expert and I've read of your posts in the past stating you didn't want to do the full reno and just convert it slowly. I didn't want to say anything because you seemed to be really averse to a reno or Round Up, not sure which is the case. I'm glade Oregonseed stated so as I concur with him and believe you should've just done a full reno. IMO, you could've had the lawn you wanted 3 or 4 years ago. I've done a couple renos and although it seems drastic, by about day 90 you already have a full lawn really, maybe minus a few small bare spots but small bare spots can happen in the life of a lawn anyway. And when you've had your lawn for a year or two, and see that it is exactly what you wanted, you'll see that the reno, although a lot of work, was really only a blip in the life of a lawn. You've done multiple overseeds/topdressings/scalping etc. You've done a lot of the same work of a reno without getting the results you wanted.
Click to expand...

I guess I've just been postponing the inevitable. Some days I can see the change in the grass. Other days I'm frustrated. The Roundup isn't the big deal, it's just the fear of completely killing what most people think is a stunning lawn. My wife already thinks I'm nuts! 
But I'm kinda glad I did it this way so far as for me it's more about learning and understanding how to keep a lawn looking good. At least with all my topdressing and stuff my yard is very flat, level, and firm enough to be a golf green. I guess it's just the next step in my lawn education.


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## Oregonseed

ThickAndGreen said:


> What are some of the most common misconceptions you see?


Confusion of varieties, seed quality, tag analysis. I was just reading something about K31 "turf type" tall fescue. K31 is actually a forage grass (hence the wide blades and low endophyte level) but commonly sold as a turf grass. I understand the confusion, just trying to inform!


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## llO0DQLE

Shindoman said:


> it's just the fear of completely killing what most people think is a stunning lawn


Meh, it's alright...  Now go and kill it and get perfection!


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## Green

Oregonseed said:


> ThickAndGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are some of the most common misconceptions you see?
> 
> 
> 
> Confusion of varieties, seed quality, tag analysis. I was just reading something about K31 "turf type" tall fescue. K31 is actually a forage grass (hence the wide blades and low endophyte level) but commonly sold as a turf grass. I understand the confusion, just trying to inform!
Click to expand...

There are several people here intentionally using it as a lawn grass when arguably "better" alternatives exist.

As far as the endophyte level, apparently it's still high enough in KY-31 to cause Fescue Toxicity symptoms in cattle certain times of the year...I've read that this is a real issue. I've seen articles talking about research into non-toxic endophyteS (versus endiohyte-free grass such as "KY-32").


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThickAndGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are some of the most common misconceptions you see?
> 
> 
> 
> Confusion of varieties, seed quality, tag analysis. I was just reading something about K31 "turf type" tall fescue. K31 is actually a forage grass (hence the wide blades and low endophyte level) but commonly sold as a turf grass. I understand the confusion, just trying to inform!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are several people here intentionally using it as a lawn grass when arguably "better" alternatives exist.
> 
> As far as the endophyte level, apparently it's still high enough in KY-31 to cause Fescue Toxicity symptoms in cattle certain times of the year...I've read that this is a real issue. I've seen articles talking about research into non-toxic endophyteS (versus endiohyte-free grass such as "KY-32").
Click to expand...

You nailed it. Most of the K31 sold now days is used a turf grass oddly enough, the forage producers have moved on to better varieties but the turf industry is still using k31. We think its hilarious here in oregon, we produce these elite turf varieties and yet the old ugly k31 is still sold in huge amounts at the store :lol:


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## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Great questions, I'll try to keep it short and not babble.
> 
> Poa triv is fairly common. Each lot of seed (55,000lbs or so) gets sampled and tested. Obviously not every single seed is tested so there is always a chance you get the one bag that has a weed seed or two in it. Our testing process is not perfect. I have seen fields with poa annua test fine for sod quality. But I know somewhere in those thousands of bags there is poa. If the tag has any percentage other crop/weed it could be anything.
> 0.01% other crop can be as high as 18 poa annua seeds per 1 pound of grass seed!
> 
> Part 2. Anything can cause contamination..wind, birds, some soil types and conditions favour certain weeds. Grass seed growers have limited chemical options for grass weeds, many chemicals that homeowners and golf courses can use are not labeled for grass seed production. I could tall for years about chemicals but that gives you some insight 😀
> Best tool growers have is spot spraying with a back pack sprayer (glyphosate) and a hoeing out weeds. It works 100% of the time but very expensive and takes a long time to walk 100 acre fields!


Thanks. So, a little deeper now...

How do you feel about seed labeled 0.00 weed and 0.00 other crop that is Blue Tag, in this context (Poa triv and even annua). Personally, that is what most of what I buy is, and I still have a Triv problem.

Are TTTF, FF, and TTPR any less likely than KBG to have Poa (especially Triv) contamination? If so, what are the main factors that play into this?

Are blends or mixtures designated as "shade belnds" or "shade mixes" any more likely to have Poa triv contamination for a given weed/other crop percentage on the tag? In other words, are entities along the supply chain more likely to throw their Triv contaminated seed into a grass blend marketed for shade? (I'm thinking about this because of how shade tolerant Triv is compared to KBG.)


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## Shindoman

llO0DQLE said:


> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> it's just the fear of completely killing what most people think is a stunning lawn
> 
> 
> 
> Meh, it's alright...  Now go and kill it and get perfection!
Click to expand...

LOL 👍


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## Green

Continuing from my previous post with a couple more, as I couldn't edit that post to add more....

How much Poa is allowed before it has to be listed as a noxious weed in a state that designates it as such? And how do the labels work vs. State rules?

What is the difference between "Gold Tag "and "Sod Quality"?
Under "other crop" in TTTF, what does "Ryegrass" mean? Annual? Perennial? Could it also contain other "other crop" even though only ryegrass is listed?


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## Green

Another question is, are you up on the research into turf-type crosses between Tall Fescue and Perennial Ryegrass? Do you see turf-type Festuloium, or whatever they end up calling it, being a viable turf option at some future point in time? Apparently there's a guy working on a very drought tolerant type of this.


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## Oregonseed

> Thanks. So, a little deeper now...
> 
> How do you feel about seed labeled 0.00 weed and 0.00 other crop that is Blue Tag, in this context (Poa triv and even annua). Personally, that is what most of what I buy is, and I still have a Triv problem.
> 
> Are TTTF, FF, and TTPR any less likely than KBG to have Poa (especially Triv) contamination? If so, what are the main factors that play into this?
> 
> Are blends or mixtures designated as "shade belnds" or "shade mixes" any more likely to have Poa triv contamination for a given weed/other crop percentage on the tag? In other words, are entities along the supply chain more likely to throw their Triv contaminated seed into a grass blend marketed for shade? (I'm thinking about this because of how shade tolerant Triv is compared to KBG.)


0/0 seed is generally great quality and reported as such. Only about 3lbs are pulled out and sampled in a 55,000lb lot of seed so weed seeds can still slip through. The poa triv problem could also be in your lawn already, may not have came from the seed always.

In my opinion, KBG has a higher risk of having poa triv contamination. Most KBG is grown on the eastern side of the state or in washington where they have triv problems. And obviously KBG and triv are very closely related, hard to control in the field.

No, if they are going to sell blends with contamination they don't go so far as to package them like you mention. If the seed has contamination the buyer is going to buy it whether a sun or shade mix is written on the bag LOL


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Continuing from my previous post with a couple more, as I couldn't edit that post to add more....
> 
> How much Poa is allowed before it has to be listed as a noxious weed in a state that designates it as such? And how do the labels work vs. State rules?
> 
> What is the difference between "Gold Tag "and "Sod Quality"?
> Under "other crop" in TTTF, what does "Ryegrass" mean? Annual? Perennial? Could it also contain other "other crop" even though only ryegrass is listed?


Great questions, but a complex on nonetheless. Message me if you want to talk more.
Each state that we ship to has different rules for weed seeds and levels of those weeds. Poa may be noxious in one state but not another, and some states allow a certain amount before it even has to be reported. A lot of seed is "cover tagged" meaning a generic tag say .50 crop and .50 weed is put on it. The levels may actually be a lot lower, but the tag covers their butt.

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/sod-quality-seed

"Ryegrass" other crop in fescue can mean perennial or annual, the lab is not requiered to verify it any further. And yes, other 'other' crop could be included even if it is not listed, depending on the states policies.


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## ksturfguy

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Confusion of varieties, seed quality, tag analysis. I was just reading something about K31 "turf type" tall fescue. K31 is actually a forage grass (hence the wide blades and low endophyte level) but commonly sold as a turf grass. I understand the confusion, just trying to inform!
> 
> 
> 
> There are several people here intentionally using it as a lawn grass when arguably "better" alternatives exist.
> 
> As far as the endophyte level, apparently it's still high enough in KY-31 to cause Fescue Toxicity symptoms in cattle certain times of the year...I've read that this is a real issue. I've seen articles talking about research into non-toxic endophyteS (versus endiohyte-free grass such as "KY-32").
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You nailed it. Most of the K31 sold now days is used a turf grass oddly enough, the forage producers have moved on to better varieties but the turf industry is still using k31. We think its hilarious here in oregon, we produce these elite turf varieties and yet the old ugly k31 is still sold in huge amounts at the store :lol:
Click to expand...

Its crazy how many people think K31 is good seed. They just dont know any better and its sold everywhere so people have heard about it so they think it must be good. Most people dont care enough to do research, they just go to store and buy cheapest seed.


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Another question is, are you up on the research into turf-type crosses between Tall Fescue and Perennial Ryegrass? Do you see turf-type Festuloium, or whatever they end up calling it, being a viable turf option at some future point in time? Apparently there's a guy working on a very drought tolerant type of this.


Festulolium is a growing option for forage applications. it has the growth of ryegrass and hardiness of fescue. I would use it in a pasture situation.
Haven't heard of it being used for turf. I think since its a cross, it would make for an ugly turf. Plant color and growth would vary and express themselves differently in a lawn.


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## Green

I'll add a few more things based on your answers...

Interesting that the Eastern side of WA and OR have a bigger Triv problem. Are there any particular states that you know of that have bigger weed/other crop issues in general? I know most seed is probably grown in WA and OR, but there are other states, too. How about them?

How about "VNS" seed? 
-why does seed end up as an unstated variety?
-is it any more likely to have contamination than a named variety?
-any way to track down what variety it could be? 
--could it be more than one variety?
--are there any specific KBG cultivars that often show up as VNS?


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> I'll add a few more things based on your answers...
> 
> Interesting that the Eastern side of WA and OR have a bigger Triv problem. Are there any particular states that you know of that have bigger weed/other crop issues in general? I know most seed is probably grown in WA and OR, but there are other states, too. How about them?
> 
> How about "VNS" seed?
> -why does seed end up as an unstated variety?
> -is it any more likely to have contamination than a named variety?
> -any way to track down what variety it could be?
> --could it be more than one variety?
> --are there any specific KBG cultivars that often show up as VNS?


On my side of the state where majority of the PRG and TF is grown, poa annua is becoming a HUGE problem. Only a matter of time before the other states end up with weed seeds in their fields

VNS is a silly term, I would like to see it outlawed. All seed is a variety and somebody owns that variety. So to put VNS on the tag makes no sense, right?

VNS most frequently happens when a seed lot may not meet contract spec for a seed company. They are protecting the variety name and do not want their variety name listed and sold with poor quality. The grower must sell it as VNS in this case. Sometimes the market is short on seed, and the grower can sell it as VNS for more than it is worth as a contracted. variety. Illegal, but we know it happens.

Not necessarily, the tag tells you what it is. I have seen sod quality seed sold as VNS

No easy way to track down the true variety.

Yes it can be more than one variety

Public varieties can be sold as VNS as nobody owns the rights to the variety anymore. Varieties become public after 30yrs, at that point they are obsolute in terms of performance for the end user.


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## Green

Thanks for clearing up VNS!

What are examples of characteristics that cause a seed lot to not meet spec?

Also, what's a "protected variety"?

So, would "Baron" and "Midnight" be examples of public varieties? Is this why sometimes different seed companies list the same varieties on their websites? I've noticed Rubgy II listed on several sites, I believe. Also Bullseye. Not sure why, as they don't seem to be public varieties.


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## Green

Another of my 64 million questions...

What are the commonly used indicators after a variety name...e.g. "GT", and what do they stand for? Is there a cheat sheet? I think I know what GT is...but there are others, too.

Is P-105 still grown?


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## FuzzeWuzze

More of a question being a local. Why is it so hard to find dang high end elite seeds INSIDE of Oregon? I feel ridiculous buying seed from Kentucky or New York when they are literally grown 30 minutes south of me.

I've found Pro Time Lawn in Portland, and i know MtView Seed sells some good/decent quality varieties as Top Choice @ Wilco...but finding high rated newer varieties of TTTF or KBG seems to be impossible.

If you know of any other local stops that sell to consumers that'd be great, any time i message grow/suppliers like MtView or others i never get a response about where to source their seeds.

Second question: With newer varieties of KBG that are more shade/disease resistant, do you see it being feasible actually maintaining a KBG stand west of the cascades in Oregon? There are a lot of Oregon state studies that say its a waste of time because of disease and fungal pressure we have here with our perpetually wet/overcast climate, but they are all from 20+ years ago and i know a lot of advancements have been made since then.

Third question: I see you went TTTF, care to share what variety you ended up using, and how its doing in our climate? I'm considering KBG or TTTF for my back yard reno this Fall but not sure what varieties of TTTF work well here(i assume your somewhere near me in the Willamette valley if your growing TTTF). I know everyone seems to be jumping on the 4th Millennium bandwagon from TMI.

Fourth question you may or may not want to answer, or cant but ill ask anyways. Are LS/RTF varieties of TTTF actually worth it or is the spreading negligible?


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## g-man

@Oregonseed welcome to TLF. Glad to have you here.

I read you did a reno to TTTF. Is it a monostand? I don't recall ever seeing one. I'm interested to see a picture of possible.

Members, please be selective with your questions to avoid overwhelming a new member.


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## SJ Lawn

@Oregonseed Why did you choose TTTF over KBG for your reno ?

Are there any exciting new cultivars of TTTF or KBG that will be hitting the market in the next couple years ?


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## tgreen

@Oregonseed , thanks for answering questions! I had a couple

1) What are the criteria for calling a cultivar "turf type" vs simply "tall fescue" and who regulates that usage? I understand KY 31 is NOT considered turf type but am not aware of any other non-turf type TF cultivar that is readily available to homeowners.

2) I know you grow TF but any chance you are familiar with Keeneland KBG? I bought it 3 years ago from Drew at SSS but he tells me it is no longer available and there is no production. Can't find it anywhere. I don't understand why you'd have a seed take the top spot in NTEP and then not produce it.

Thanks


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## BXMurphy

1. What's the difference between species vs. cultivar vs. variety vs. type?

2. I heard that left unchecked things always revert to type. Not necessarily grass, but in general. And then I was researching KBG and saw this: https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/characteristics-of-kentucky-bluegrass-cultivars

I was looking at the Mid-Atlantic type KBG, the Preakness cultivar. It seems to resist Leaf Spot. After a few years of the plant dropping its own seeds, will I have to battle Leaf Spot because it returned to it's natural type?

Murph


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Thanks for clearing up VNS!
> 
> What are examples of characteristics that cause a seed lot to not meet spec?
> 
> Also, what's a "protected variety"?
> 
> So, would "Baron" and "Midnight" be examples of public varieties? Is this why sometimes different seed companies list the same varieties on their websites? I've noticed Rubgy II listed on several sites, I believe. Also Bullseye. Not sure why, as they don't seem to be public varieties.


Seed companies contract with farmers to grow the seed. Each contract has specs for germ, purity, crop, weed, ship date, price, etc. If the seed does not meet contract requirement, the company can choose to buy at a lesser price or release the seed to the grower and they must sell as VNS.

PVP plant variety protection. Google it I'm sure you can find info. Most varieties are under PVP for 30yrs

Baron and midnight are private varieties. They are common because well known and many companies sell it. Just like Pepsi is on the shelf at many stores


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Another of my 64 million questions...
> 
> What are the commonly used indicators after a variety name...e.g. "GT", and what do they stand for? Is there a cheat sheet? I think I know what GT is...but there are others, too.
> 
> Is P-105 still grown?


GT stands for glyphosate tolerant. GSLR is another common one which means grey leaf spot resistance. They are just added to describe the variety.

I cannot accurately answer for p105. Maybe, maybe not


----------



## Dkrem

That is neat that it is grown in rows and harvested just like wheat.


----------



## BXMurphy

Dkrem said:


> That is neat that it is grown in rows and harvested just like wheat.


I was astounded to hear OregonSeed's explanation of how farmers can grow to spec. Imagine that! They can actually grow stuff... you know... out in a field and all that comes with it... and match a spec sheet like a machinist can crank out parts. Mind blowing!

And here I thought that farmers just "grew some corn" (or whatever) and some can do it better than others.

I could just sit back and read this thread for hours. I'm glad they stopped in and joined us here.

I wonder what made them find this nice place over other sites?

Murph


----------



## Dkrem

Bx: I think you are being sarcastic but not completely sure. I come from a farm family and have driven a combine. Farming is crazy high tech on all fronts.


----------



## BXMurphy

Dkrem said:


> Bx: I think you are being sarcastic but not completely sure. I come from a farm family and have driven a combine. Farming is crazy high tech on all fronts.


No, not at all. I don't think we give farmers (and seed growers, in particular) the respect they deserve. I buy stuff at the supermarket all shrink-wrapped and pretty, pretty.

Along comes OregonSeed, a member who actually grows the very product that I so very much enjoy as a hobbyist and WOW, what an eye-opener!!

It's kind of like why I enjoy reading posts by landscapers, greenskeepers, YouTubers, and other more advanced hobbyists and researchers.

I'll go one step further, I love the questions that are posed by folks who are learning from them because I wouldn't have even THOUGHT to ask those questions myself!

I'm just so happy that you and everyone here is so knowledgeable and human! This is really a great site with fantastic moderators and administrators that keep everyone on track. I think that is why it is so popular!

Murph


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> More of a question being a local. Why is it so hard to find dang high end elite seeds INSIDE of Oregon? I feel ridiculous buying seed from Kentucky or New York when they are literally grown 30 minutes south of me.
> 
> I've found Pro Time Lawn in Portland, and i know MtView Seed sells some good/decent quality varieties as Top Choice @ Wilco...but finding high rated newer varieties of TTTF or KBG seems to be impossible.
> 
> If you know of any other local stops that sell to consumers that'd be great, any time i message grow/suppliers like MtView or others i never get a response about where to source their seeds.
> 
> Second question: With newer varieties of KBG that are more shade/disease resistant, do you see it being feasible actually maintaining a KBG stand west of the cascades in Oregon? There are a lot of Oregon state studies that say its a waste of time because of disease and fungal pressure we have here with our perpetually wet/overcast climate, but they are all from 20+ years ago and i know a lot of advancements have been made since then.
> 
> Third question: I see you went TTTF, care to share what variety you ended up using, and how its doing in our climate? I'm considering KBG or TTTF for my back yard reno this Fall but not sure what varieties of TTTF work well here(i assume your somewhere near me in the Willamette valley if your growing TTTF). I know everyone seems to be jumping on the 4th Millennium bandwagon from TMI.
> 
> Fourth question you may or may not want to answer, or cant but ill ask anyways. Are LS/RTF varieties of TTTF actually worth it or is the spreading negligible?


Crazy right?! I love to look at the junk sold at home depot everytime I go, I usually can tell which warehouse it came from and gives me a good chuckle. Lawn renovations are pretty rare in the NW. Most people have a decent lawn that grows all year and looks fine. Other parts of the country take great pride in lawns, not so much here so i dont think sales would be high. Plus most companies dont want to sell elite varieties to anybody, that's why gold courses look so pretty. I have no good places to buy seed retail, sorry.

I really dont know about the kbg stand. I've never personally seen it done, and I'm not a huge fan of kbg anyways! Would be a great experiment...hmm

I cannot say what variety my lawn is..the seed is not sold retail, strictly to high end golf courses. But yes any newer fescue will look great in the willamette valley. Seed superstore Carrie's some excellent ones I wouldn't hesitate to use.

The spreading varieties do what they say. It's a small amount, but they do spread a little more. The average homeowner probably wouldn't notice the difference.


----------



## Oregonseed

g-man said:


> @Oregonseed welcome to TLF. Glad to have you here.
> 
> I read you did a reno to TTTF. Is it a monostand? I don't recall ever seeing one. I'm interested to see a picture of possible.
> 
> Members, please be selective with your questions to avoid overwhelming a new member.


Yep, 100% tall fescue. Best yard on the block maybe whole town? Mowed at 4in


----------



## Oregonseed

SJ Lawn said:


> @Oregonseed Why did you choose TTTF over KBG for your reno ?
> 
> Are there any exciting new cultivars of TTTF or KBG that will be hitting the market in the next couple years ?


I like the look of tall fescue, big blades and ruggid. Plus i like dealing with it from a crop production stand point.
Dozens of varieties are released each year, they rarely differ but NTEP ratings mean everything in the turf sales world. Exciting?? no..its just grass sorry


----------



## Oregonseed

BXMurphy said:


> 1. What's the difference between species vs. cultivar vs. variety vs. type?
> 
> 2. I heard that left unchecked things always revert to type. Not necessarily grass, but in general. And then I was researching KBG and saw this: https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/characteristics-of-kentucky-bluegrass-cultivars
> 
> I was looking at the Mid-Atlantic type KBG, the Preakness cultivar. It seems to resist Leaf Spot. After a few years of the plant dropping its own seeds, will I have to battle Leaf Spot because it returned to it's natural type?
> 
> Murph


1. Species - tall fescue, ryegrass, kentucky bluegrass
cultivar - a fancy word meaning cultivated variety..nobody uses this word in my industry, neither do i
variety - 4th millenium, midnight, beacon, etc.

2. not sure what your asking here. I cannot speak for that cultivar exclusively...


----------



## Oregonseed

tgreen said:


> @Oregonseed , thanks for answering questions! I had a couple
> 
> 1) What are the criteria for calling a cultivar "turf type" vs simply "tall fescue" and who regulates that usage? I understand KY 31 is NOT considered turf type but am not aware of any other non-turf type TF cultivar that is readily available to homeowners.
> 
> 2) I know you grow TF but any chance you are familiar with Keeneland KBG? I bought it 3 years ago from Drew at SSS but he tells me it is no longer available and there is no production. Can't find it anywhere. I don't understand why you'd have a seed take the top spot in NTEP and then not produce it.
> 
> Thanks


1. tall fescue is the species, there is forage type and turf type. Endophytes are good in turf and toxic in forage for animals. And yes the two look drastically different. VNS TF can often be forage or turf type..not many other forage varieties are sold as turf type though.

2. Not familiar with that variety. This happens more often than you would think. Generally, the variety does not perform well from a seed production standpoint, meaning it does not yield well for the grower and if they are paid the same for a variety that yields better why would they grow the other one? If there is a drastic difference in yield the grower must be paid a premium. Paying a premium is not always feasible....usually easier to just grow and sell the one that yields better.

This is a big battle in my job. The seed company wants the newest and greatest NTEP variety produced, but the farmer wants the old one that he know works well. There seems to be a correlation between NTEP rating and yield, you never get the best of both worlds.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Oregonseed said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> More of a question being a local. Why is it so hard to find dang high end elite seeds INSIDE of Oregon? I feel ridiculous buying seed from Kentucky or New York when they are literally grown 30 minutes south of me.
> 
> I've found Pro Time Lawn in Portland, and i know MtView Seed sells some good/decent quality varieties as Top Choice @ Wilco...but finding high rated newer varieties of TTTF or KBG seems to be impossible.
> 
> If you know of any other local stops that sell to consumers that'd be great, any time i message grow/suppliers like MtView or others i never get a response about where to source their seeds.
> 
> Second question: With newer varieties of KBG that are more shade/disease resistant, do you see it being feasible actually maintaining a KBG stand west of the cascades in Oregon? There are a lot of Oregon state studies that say its a waste of time because of disease and fungal pressure we have here with our perpetually wet/overcast climate, but they are all from 20+ years ago and i know a lot of advancements have been made since then.
> 
> Third question: I see you went TTTF, care to share what variety you ended up using, and how its doing in our climate? I'm considering KBG or TTTF for my back yard reno this Fall but not sure what varieties of TTTF work well here(i assume your somewhere near me in the Willamette valley if your growing TTTF). I know everyone seems to be jumping on the 4th Millennium bandwagon from TMI.
> 
> Fourth question you may or may not want to answer, or cant but ill ask anyways. Are LS/RTF varieties of TTTF actually worth it or is the spreading negligible?
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy right?! I love to look at the junk sold at home depot everytime I go, I usually can tell which warehouse it came from and gives me a good chuckle. Lawn renovations are pretty rare in the NW. Most people have a decent lawn that grows all year and looks fine. Other parts of the country take great pride in lawns, not so much here so i dont think sales would be high. Plus most companies dont want to sell elite varieties to anybody, that's why gold courses look so pretty. I have no good places to buy seed retail, sorry.
> 
> I really dont know about the kbg stand. I've never personally seen it done, and I'm not a huge fan of kbg anyways! Would be a great experiment...hmm
> 
> I cannot say what variety my lawn is..the seed is not sold retail, strictly to high end golf courses. But yes any newer fescue will look great in the willamette valley. Seed superstore Carrie's some excellent ones I wouldn't hesitate to use.
> 
> The spreading varieties do what they say. It's a small amount, but they do spread a little more. The average homeowner probably wouldn't notice the difference.
Click to expand...

Wait, golf courses using tttf around here? For rough or decorative landscape grass I'd assume? I mean bent grows so well here is think it would be all bent.


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> The spreading varieties do what they say. It's a small amount, but they do spread a little more. The average homeowner probably wouldn't notice the difference.


I love this thread!

Do you have any further info on the spreading TTTF (or even spreading PR such as Fiesta 4)? Like, do you think we will keep seeing improvements in the spread ability over time until they almost rival some of the slower-spreading KBG varieties?

Also, for TTTF, can you recommend any medium to light green varieties or blends that are currently available for purchase, that will play well with lighter color grasses like KY-31, Fine Fescues, or even older TTTF varieties? I haven't been able to figure this out, even though I've looked at NTEP "genetic color" rankings many times. I saw some lawns in my neighborhood though that were mostly TTTF and FF, but with older TTTF types, and it all matched in color, which made the lawns look pretty good even though they're not necessarily lawn hobbyists. Both the TTTF and FF in those lawns were identical medium green. I'd guess they were seeded in the 90s. If I could get lighter green TTTF that matched the color of my FF in the non-renovated lawn areas, I'd be happy. The varieties I use in my renovated or overseeded areas are all dark green and don't match the older lawn areas...so frustrating.


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:



> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> More of a question being a local. Why is it so hard to find dang high end elite seeds INSIDE of Oregon? I feel ridiculous buying seed from Kentucky or New York when they are literally grown 30 minutes south of me.
> 
> I've found Pro Time Lawn in Portland, and i know MtView Seed sells some good/decent quality varieties as Top Choice @ Wilco...but finding high rated newer varieties of TTTF or KBG seems to be impossible.
> 
> If you know of any other local stops that sell to consumers that'd be great, any time i message grow/suppliers like MtView or others i never get a response about where to source their seeds.
> 
> Second question: With newer varieties of KBG that are more shade/disease resistant, do you see it being feasible actually maintaining a KBG stand west of the cascades in Oregon? There are a lot of Oregon state studies that say its a waste of time because of disease and fungal pressure we have here with our perpetually wet/overcast climate, but they are all from 20+ years ago and i know a lot of advancements have been made since then.
> 
> Third question: I see you went TTTF, care to share what variety you ended up using, and how its doing in our climate? I'm considering KBG or TTTF for my back yard reno this Fall but not sure what varieties of TTTF work well here(i assume your somewhere near me in the Willamette valley if your growing TTTF). I know everyone seems to be jumping on the 4th Millennium bandwagon from TMI.
> 
> Fourth question you may or may not want to answer, or cant but ill ask anyways. Are LS/RTF varieties of TTTF actually worth it or is the spreading negligible?
> 
> 
> 
> Crazy right?! I love to look at the junk sold at home depot everytime I go, I usually can tell which warehouse it came from and gives me a good chuckle. Lawn renovations are pretty rare in the NW. Most people have a decent lawn that grows all year and looks fine. Other parts of the country take great pride in lawns, not so much here so i dont think sales would be high. Plus most companies dont want to sell elite varieties to anybody, that's why gold courses look so pretty. I have no good places to buy seed retail, sorry.
> 
> I really dont know about the kbg stand. I've never personally seen it done, and I'm not a huge fan of kbg anyways! Would be a great experiment...hmm
> 
> I cannot say what variety my lawn is..the seed is not sold retail, strictly to high end golf courses. But yes any newer fescue will look great in the willamette valley. Seed superstore Carrie's some excellent ones I wouldn't hesitate to use.
> 
> The spreading varieties do what they say. It's a small amount, but they do spread a little more. The average homeowner probably wouldn't notice the difference.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wait, golf courses using tttf around here? For rough or decorative landscape grass I'd assume? I mean bent grows so well here is think it would be all bent.
Click to expand...

Bentgrass is extremely expensive, only used on greens.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> The spreading varieties do what they say. It's a small amount, but they do spread a little more. The average homeowner probably wouldn't notice the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> I love this thread!
> 
> Do you have any further info on the spreading TTTF (or even spreading PR such as Fiesta 4)? Like, do you think we will keep seeing improvements in the spread ability over time until they almost rival some of the slower-spreading KBG varieties?
> 
> Also, for TTTF, can you recommend any medium to light green varieties or blends that are currently available for purchase, that will play well with lighter color grasses like KY-31, Fine Fescues, or even older TTTF varieties? I haven't been able to figure this out, even though I've looked at NTEP "genetic color" rankings many times. I saw some lawns in my neighborhood though that were mostly TTTF and FF, but with older TTTF types, and it all matched in color, which made the lawns look pretty good even though they're not necessarily lawn hobbyists. Both the TTTF and FF in those lawns were identical medium green. I'd guess they were seeded in the 90s. If I could get lighter green TTTF that matched the color of my FF in the non-renovated lawn areas, I'd be happy. The varieties I use in my renovated or overseeded areas are all dark green and don't match the older lawn areas...so frustrating.
Click to expand...

Yes, I think the spreadability will continue to grow and become the norm. I know there are a few varieties that are RTF, rhizomotous tall fescue. Pretty cool technology.

K31 will always stand out like a sore thumb, nothing really compares to its color, leaf shape, and fast growth.

No way to color match to your old grass..I would just start fresh. You will be much happier in a lot less time


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Oregonseed said:


> Yes, I think the spreadability will continue to grow and become the norm. I know there are a few varieties that are RTF, rhizomotous tall fescue. Pretty cool technology.


Sorry every answer you give begs i ask more questions, talking to an expert that actually lives in my(our) awkward climate doesn't pop up ever. :lol:

I've seen the "RTF" varieties at our local shop presumably from Barenbrug who seems to own that trademark, but i also see other ones called LS(Lateral Spread-MtView Seed) or SR(Self Repairing) among other names, i always just assumed they were different seed growers Marketting names for the same thing? Or is that not the case?


----------



## crussell

This thread is great! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Can you speak to these newer creeping bluegrass seeds such as True Putt? One of our PNW members @Rule11 has done a small renovation, and it looks amazing from the photos I've seen. Reno Page Here with Photos.

As someone who lives in the PNW, I am very intrigued by this variety. Do you see golf courses in our climate moving this direction? Do you think it is a good fit for a PNW home owner at a low height of cut (.50" or so) vs PRG or other KBG?

Thanks!


----------



## Rule11

crussell said:


> This thread is great! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
> 
> Can you speak to these newer creeping bluegrass seeds such as True Putt? One of our PNW members @Rule11 has done a small renovation, and it looks amazing from the photos I've seen. Reno Page Here with Photos.
> 
> As someone who lives in the PNW, I am very intrigued by this variety. Do you see golf courses in our climate moving this direction? Do you think it is a good fit for a PNW home owner at a low height of cut (.50" or so) vs PRG or other KBG?
> Thanks
> 
> I will say this, this trial project is a fun and interesting one. But if anyone is thinking about this type of seed you MUST have a PGR program ready. The seed head production is real. So this spring I was directed to simply let the seed head do its thing and cut without a basket. I will start my PGR program soon to see the difference in the look and texture. Just know this turf produces a ton of seed heads. So if you don't want to manage seed heads this is not for you. I will continue this trial through another full year of seasons to try some other timeline techniques


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I think the spreadability will continue to grow and become the norm. I know there are a few varieties that are RTF, rhizomotous tall fescue. Pretty cool technology.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry every answer you give begs i ask more questions, talking to an expert that actually lives in my(our) awkward climate doesn't pop up ever. :lol:
> 
> I've seen the "RTF" varieties at our local shop presumably from Barenbrug who seems to own that trademark, but i also see other ones called LS(Lateral Spread-MtView Seed) or SR(Self Repairing) among other names, i always just assumed they were different seed growers Marketting names for the same thing? Or is that not the case?
Click to expand...

That is a really good question, one that I'm not entirely sure and will find out from companies that use the term. I'll report back eventually, thanks!


----------



## Oregonseed

Rule11 said:


> crussell said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread is great! Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
> 
> Can you speak to these newer creeping bluegrass seeds such as True Putt? One of our PNW members @Rule11 has done a small renovation, and it looks amazing from the photos I've seen. Reno Page Here with Photos.
> 
> As someone who lives in the PNW, I am very intrigued by this variety. Do you see golf courses in our climate moving this direction? Do you think it is a good fit for a PNW home owner at a low height of cut (.50" or so) vs PRG or other KBG?
> Thanks
> 
> I will say this, this trial project is a fun and interesting one. But if anyone is thinking about this type of seed you MUST have a PGR program ready. The seed head production is real. So this spring I was directed to simply let the seed head do its thing and cut without a basket. I will start my PGR program soon to see the difference in the look and texture. Just know this turf produces a ton of seed heads. So if you don't want to manage seed heads this is not for you. I will continue this trial through another full year of seasons to try some other timeline techniques
> [/qu@Rule11
> 
> I do not have a ton of knowledge on this, I think @Rule11 would be a better source of information honestly. Interesting nonetheless, thanks for the link!
Click to expand...


----------



## Oregonseed

Would like to add, if you see posts where someone has questions about seed please tag me! Will do my best to help


----------



## Ecubed

What is inert Matter? And why does most seed originate in Oregon?


----------



## ksturfguy

@Ecubed Glad you posted that. Been awhile since I've been to the grass pad. Was wondering what variety of TTTF they were using. Several years ago I used to buy all my seed and fert through them but never really paid attention to what exactly I was buying. Just blindly followed their Idiot proof plan.


----------



## Ecubed

ksturfguy said:


> @Ecubed Glad you posted that. Been awhile since I've been to the grass pad. Was wondering what variety of TTTF they were using. Several years ago I used to buy all my seed and fert through them but never really paid attention to what exactly I was buying. Just blindly followed their Idiot proof plan.


@ksturfguy this is my 2nd year of really getting into my turf Management. It seems like I learn more and more every day. I don't use any of their products, I just buy my seed from them. Who knows what kind of quality it is compared to seed superstore. I assume it's not as good just based on price point. SSS has 50 lb bags of TTTF blend for over $200. This seed costs like $110-120 for 50 lbs. I am happy with the way my grass looks though.


----------



## ksturfguy

Ecubed said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Ecubed Glad you posted that. Been awhile since I've been to the grass pad. Was wondering what variety of TTTF they were using. Several years ago I used to buy all my seed and fert through them but never really paid attention to what exactly I was buying. Just blindly followed their Idiot proof plan.
> 
> 
> 
> @ksturfguy this is my 2nd year of really getting into my turf Management. It seems like I learn more and more every day. I don't use any of their products, I just buy my seed from them. Who knows what kind of quality it is compared to seed superstore. I assume it's not as good just based on price point. SSS has 50 lb bags of TTTF blend for over $200. This seed costs like $110-120 for 50 lbs. I am happy with the way my grass looks though.
Click to expand...

Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.


----------



## Ecubed

ksturfguy said:


> Ecubed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Ecubed Glad you posted that. Been awhile since I've been to the grass pad. Was wondering what variety of TTTF they were using. Several years ago I used to buy all my seed and fert through them but never really paid attention to what exactly I was buying. Just blindly followed their Idiot proof plan.
> 
> 
> 
> @ksturfguy this is my 2nd year of really getting into my turf Management. It seems like I learn more and more every day. I don't use any of their products, I just buy my seed from them. Who knows what kind of quality it is compared to seed superstore. I assume it's not as good just based on price point. SSS has 50 lb bags of TTTF blend for over $200. This seed costs like $110-120 for 50 lbs. I am happy with the way my grass looks though.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking as I said I am happy with my grass with the cheaper price point seed. Maybe the price of shipping 50 lbs is padded into SSS price points? Who knows. I've seen a lot of videos and posts hyping up SSS but when I saw the price I said no thanks. Ill stick with grass pad(cause they're high on grass 😂)


----------



## MikeyD

Hello all, a question regarding PRG. I have a yard which I reno'd with a seed I bought at a local supplier (OSC Turf in Kitchener, Ontario - for all you local folks, they carry a large range of seed and fertilizer and are very helpful and knowledgeable). I use organics only on it (Sustane) which I also get from the same place. I use the other 'normal' products - liquid humic, EM (effective microogranism) and Myke brand mycorrhizal fungi. I also have in ground irrigation.

I inherited a 50 year old lawn that was a mess. After years of overseeding and levelling, I decided to start from scratch. My main problem was level and clover. Tons and tons of clover. Some runners were ten to twelve feet long. I smoked everything and did a final level with Gro-Turf and started from scratch. The seed I used is Evolution Perennial Rye Grass Mixture (equal parts Caddieshack, Top Gun and Sunrise seed). I believe it comes from your neck of the woods @Oregonseed I mow it at 1" with a manual reel mower.

I am very pleased with results, the grass is nice and thick, and can take the constant beating my two boys put on it playing soccer, baseball and playing in general. The local kids are always in the back playing as well, so it sees heavy traffic.

Partly because I have to reno my other lawn (a close-by vacation property with 25k square feet) and partly out of research interest, I have come across CSI (creeping, spreading, innovative recuperative perennial rye grass). The tech sheet makes in look very interesting, but very little information is out there other than a one page tech write up/sell sheet. I am considering it for my future reno, and even possibly at home, but much research to be done yet.

Any information/pros/cons would be much appreciated. Is it something that could/should be added to my existing Evolution to give it a bit more regeneration strength?

Cheers.


----------



## j4c11

@Oregonseed

What's the minimum amount of seed someone would need to buy to be able to purchase some of these hard to find varieties straight from the producer? I understand it may vary, just ballpark would be fine.


----------



## Oregonseed

Ecubed said:


> What is inert Matter? And why does most seed originate in Oregon?


Inert matter can be soil, chaff, broken seeds. Basically anything that is not viable weed/grass seeds. 100% pure seed is very rare

Most grass seed is from Oregon because that's where most of it is grown. The county I live in is the grass seed Capitol of the world!


----------



## Oregonseed

j4c11 said:


> @Oregonseed
> 
> What's the minimum amount of seed someone would need to buy to be able to purchase some of these hard to find varieties straight from the producer? I understand it may vary, just ballpark would be fine.


Straight from the producer as in the farmer? Well most varieties are owned by a company who contracts with the farmer to grow it. The grower cannot legally sell it on their own since they are not licensed to.


----------



## Nikon

Hi,

Thanks for doing this. I live in Northern Ontario (Zone 3a) I have a smaller lawn size just under a 1000-sqft front and back. The front lawn gets direct sun during the morning (maybe 3-4 hours) and then it's partial. My back yard is direct sun for almost the entirety of the day.

-I have a large dog that can easily tear up a yard if he has the zoomies
-I have a 16X20 workshop in the back yard and a gate going to the carport so there's a significant amount of traffic on the back lawn.
-Given all of this information, what is your recommendation for seed when I go to over seed in the fall?

Thanks again!


----------



## Oregonseed

Thought some of you might find this cool. Here is a seed test from a "lot" of seed. The farmer dumps seed from combine into truck, truck dumps seed at warehouse. Warehouse runs seed through different types of cleaners and separators to get as pure seed as possible, while removing big straw pieces and inert matter. Average cleanout percentage is 15%. It funnels down after being cleaned and put into bags that are sown. Bags are stacked on a pallet, 40 bags weighing 50lbs per bag. Semi trailer comes and picks 42,000lbs (21 full pallets) and shipped to a store near you!

It is tall fescue, 55k pound lot. All of this seed only came off about 30 acres. So on a 300 acre field there are a lot of semi loads of seed!

I crossed out all the proprietary information


----------



## Green

Very cool!

And that's the same lab listed on my blue tag seed.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Very cool!
> 
> And that's the same lab listed on my blue tag seed.


All certified seed is tested through OSU, they are the only certifying agency that can print blue tags.

They have a website where you can learn all the process that go into make seed certified blue tag


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Oregonseed 
When you walk through the rows of kbg varieties, can you tell much difference in color?

Or does something like midnight standout from the rest?

I have a blend of midnight, nuglade, bewitched and everest.
And not as dark as I would like, wondering if this was a mistake not getting a midnight monostand.


----------



## testwerke

Oregonseed said:


> Thought some of you might find this cool. Here is a seed test from a "lot" of seed. The farmer dumps seed from combine into truck, truck dumps seed at warehouse. Warehouse runs seed through different types of cleaners and separators to get as pure seed as possible, while removing big straw pieces and inert matter. Average cleanout percentage is 15%. It funnels down after being cleaned and put into bags that are sown. Bags are stacked on a pallet, 40 bags weighing 50lbs per bag. Semi trailer comes and picks 42,000lbs (21 full pallets) and shipped to a store near you!
> 
> It is tall fescue, 55k pound lot. All of this seed only came off about 30 acres. So on a 300 acre field there are a lot of semi loads of seed!


That's really cool. Thanks for sharing! So OSU tests just 5g of the 55,000 lbs?


----------



## Oregonseed

Thick n Dense said:


> @Oregonseed
> When you walk through the rows of kbg varieties, can you tell much difference in color?
> 
> Or does something like midnight standout from the rest?
> 
> I have a blend of midnight, nuglade, bewitched and everest.
> And not as dark as I would like, wondering if this was a mistake not getting a midnight monostand.


Yes I can see differences in color, all varieties have slight differences just like cars. I dont understand why people plant blends of the same species, blends of different species makes sense sometimes.


----------



## Oregonseed

testwerke said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thought some of you might find this cool. Here is a seed test from a "lot" of seed. The farmer dumps seed from combine into truck, truck dumps seed at warehouse. Warehouse runs seed through different types of cleaners and separators to get as pure seed as possible, while removing big straw pieces and inert matter. Average cleanout percentage is 15%. It funnels down after being cleaned and put into bags that are sown. Bags are stacked on a pallet, 40 bags weighing 50lbs per bag. Semi trailer comes and picks 42,000lbs (21 full pallets) and shipped to a store near you!
> 
> It is tall fescue, 55k pound lot. All of this seed only came off about 30 acres. So on a 300 acre field there are a lot of semi loads of seed!
> 
> 
> 
> That's really cool. Thanks for sharing! So OSU tests just 5g of the 55,000 lbs?
Click to expand...

Correct! Sod quality seed has a 10x larger sample tested.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Oregonseed said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed
> When you walk through the rows of kbg varieties, can you tell much difference in color?
> 
> Or does something like midnight standout from the rest?
> 
> I have a blend of midnight, nuglade, bewitched and everest.
> And not as dark as I would like, wondering if this was a mistake not getting a midnight monostand.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can see differences in color, all varieties have slight differences just like cars. I dont understand why people plant blends of the same species, blends of different species makes sense sometimes.
Click to expand...

The seed marketers seem have everyone convinced if you do mono stands your going to get 1 disease and wipe out your entire lawn to bare soil by the time you get back from a 3 day vacation lol.


----------



## Thick n Dense

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed
> When you walk through the rows of kbg varieties, can you tell much difference in color?
> 
> Or does something like midnight standout from the rest?
> 
> I have a blend of midnight, nuglade, bewitched and everest.
> And not as dark as I would like, wondering if this was a mistake not getting a midnight monostand.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can see differences in color, all varieties have slight differences just like cars. I dont understand why people plant blends of the same species, blends of different species makes sense sometimes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The seed marketers seem have everyone convinced if you do mono stands your going to get 1 disease and wipe out your entire lawn to bare soil by the time you get back from a 3 day vacation lol.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Now I made an expensive noob mistake.

While not being satisfied with the color.

My neighobors got sod a couple years ago... not looking so great now.
But man let me tell you, its the darkest kbg I've ever seen. 
So jealous, worst part is, they have no idea what species it is... :|


----------



## The Anti-Rebel

FuzzeWuzze said:


> The seed marketers seem have everyone convinced if you do mono stands your going to get 1 disease and wipe out your entire lawn to bare soil by the time you get back from a 3 day vacation lol.


Your oversimplified view undervalues the benefits of genetic diversity.


----------



## Teelow

Hi @Oregonseed

I plan on overseeding in the fall on my lawn that has been neglected by the previous owner. Right now I've been trying to control my weeds and set up an DIY above ground irrigation system. My plan in fall is to power rake, clean, power rake again, clean, core aerate, spread seed, lightly rake seeds in, and then use tenacity as pre/post emergent all in same day, or at least try to. I'll follow up with another tenacity application 2 weeks after. Question now is after all that, should I be using something like Scotts Starter with Weed Prevention and then cover with peat moss then water after putting seed down?


----------



## MassHole

ksturfguy said:


> Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.


1 - they have free shipping. That cost is buried into the seed price, which is about $20 for 50 lbs.
2 - the weed and other crop in most local stores aren't 0%. You're paying for pure seed.
3 - box store seed is older, and has lower germination rates
4 - convenience - I can't order seed and see labels and analysis from many online retailers, in fact, very few if any have the same level of information as SSS, Sure, I can call, ask them to send me the label, quote me shipping, and then call them again to place my order. You're paying for convenience.

SSS is pricey, but when you want a particular seed, and want it from a place you can trust, with online ordering, you are paying for that premium.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

MassHole said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 - they have free shipping. That cost is buried into the seed price, which is about $20 for 50 lbs.
> 2 - the weed and other crop in most local stores aren't 0%. You're paying for pure seed.
> 3 - box store seed is older, and has lower germination rates
> 4 - convenience - I can't order seed and see labels and analysis from many online retailers, in fact, very few if any have the same level of information as SSS, Sure, I can call, ask them to send me the label, quote me shipping, and then call them again to place my order. You're paying for convenience.
> 
> SSS is pricey, but when you want a particular seed, and want it from a place you can trust, with online ordering, you are paying for that premium.
Click to expand...

As someone who put down seed containing #2, and have triv everywhere in my yard and now have to reno again 2 years later, i agree.


----------



## MassHole

FuzzeWuzze said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 - they have free shipping. That cost is buried into the seed price, which is about $20 for 50 lbs.
> 2 - the weed and other crop in most local stores aren't 0%. You're paying for pure seed.
> 3 - box store seed is older, and has lower germination rates
> 4 - convenience - I can't order seed and see labels and analysis from many online retailers, in fact, very few if any have the same level of information as SSS, Sure, I can call, ask them to send me the label, quote me shipping, and then call them again to place my order. You're paying for convenience.
> 
> SSS is pricey, but when you want a particular seed, and want it from a place you can trust, with online ordering, you are paying for that premium.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As someone who put down seed containing #2, and have triv everywhere in my yard and now have to reno again 2 years later, i agree.
Click to expand...

Me too my friend. I used Scotts and then aerated the following year, spreading the triv everywhere.

I bought into the YouTuber who went on and on about coated seed. I'm an idiot....


----------



## Avalawn T

So this is SSS Blend and it has weed% is this normal or should I be pissed.


----------



## MassHole

Avalawn T said:


> So this is SSS Blend and it has weed% is this normal or should I be pissed.


That's what he advertises on his site. 0.01% weed

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/content/images/seed%20labels/SS1100%20L155M-18-KB110019.jpg


----------



## pennstater2005

Someone do the math. How many seeds is that potentially in 5# of seed?


----------



## Avalawn T

I'm new to buying seed so I didn't know, lord knows I have some weeds in the yard so I'm not really worried about a small percentage. As for the 4th millennium seed I got a few days ago with the other crop in it. Is this something you guys wouldn't even use?


----------



## pennstater2005

Avalawn T said:


> I'm new to buying seed so I didn't know, lord knows I have some weeds in the yard so I'm not really worried about a small percentage. As for the 4th millennium seed I got a few days ago with the other crop in it. Is this something you guys wouldn't even use?


I would use it.


----------



## Avalawn T

@pennstater2005 thanks.


----------



## ksturfguy

MassHole said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just my opinion but SeedSuperStore is WAY over priced. I can't imagine why anyone would pay those prices. Yes they have very good seed choices but why would I pay $214 for a TTTF blend when I can get a very similar blend for $100 at my local store? I've checked the NTEP site for the varieties that the local store has in their blend and they all rank right up there with what SSS has. Now I guess if you don't have any quality seed stores within an hour or 2 of you or if you have an unlimited budget and just have to have that 1 seed variety for some reason then I guess buy from SSS.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 - they have free shipping. That cost is buried into the seed price, which is about $20 for 50 lbs.
> 2 - the weed and other crop in most local stores aren't 0%. You're paying for pure seed.
> 3 - box store seed is older, and has lower germination rates
> 4 - convenience - I can't order seed and see labels and analysis from many online retailers, in fact, very few if any have the same level of information as SSS, Sure, I can call, ask them to send me the label, quote me shipping, and then call them again to place my order. You're paying for convenience.
> 
> SSS is pricey, but when you want a particular seed, and want it from a place you can trust, with online ordering, you are paying for that premium.
Click to expand...

Yeah I guess I'm just lucky I have a couple places in town I can buy high quality, 0% weed seed from where I live. If you don't have that luxury then you have to do what you have to do. I'm a TTTF guy so the high quality brands my store sells is good enough, I'm not particular enough to pay 2 or 3 times more for a specific type of TTTF. IF you want a specific monostand then again you have to do what you have to do,.


----------



## SixString

@Oregonseed 
Do you know anything about the specifics of the PRG used at Augusta National?

The alleged known information is that a team at Rutgers is dedicated to assessing all of the most current variables (climate, predicted soil analysis, etc.). Every year their mission is to produce a Perennial Rye fairway color that exactly matches the "green jacket". After the golf tournament in April, the course keeps the rye for about a month, but then it is Bermuda the rest of the summer until the course shuts down to replace every PRG seed with the new variety in the fall in preparation for the folllowing April.

Before last year, I would never have believed it. However, I have since seen the hallowed grounds with my own eyes and it is immaculate. But Augusta National won't even tell you which soda you're drinking when you're attending (you order "cola", "diet cola", or "lemon lime"), let alone give out the minutia on their turf.

Insiders are insiders for a reason. Watcha got?


----------



## Oregonseed

Avalawn T said:


> I'm new to buying seed so I didn't know, lord knows I have some weeds in the yard so I'm not really worried about a small percentage. As for the 4th millennium seed I got a few days ago with the other crop in it. Is this something you guys wouldn't even use?


Depends what the other crop is?


----------



## Oregonseed

SixString said:


> @Oregonseed
> Do you know anything about the specifics of the PRG used at Augusta National?
> 
> The alleged known information is that a team at Rutgers is dedicated to assessing all of the most current variables (climate, predicted soil analysis, etc.). Every year their mission is to produce a Perennial Rye fairway color that exactly matches the "green jacket". After the golf tournament in April, the course keeps the rye for about a month, but then it is Bermuda the rest of the summer until the course shuts down to replace every PRG seed with the new variety in the fall in preparation for the folllowing April.
> 
> Before last year, I would never have believed it. However, I have since seen the hallowed grounds with my own eyes and it is immaculate. But Augusta National won't even tell you which soda you're drinking when you're attending (you order "cola", "diet cola", or "lemon lime"), let alone give out the minutia on their turf.
> 
> Insiders are insiders for a reason. Watcha got?


I got nothin...its probably a variety widely used. The hype the put around everything is just for attention IMO.


----------



## Green

Avalawn T said:


> I'm new to buying seed so I didn't know, lord knows I have some weeds in the yard so I'm not really worried about a small percentage. As for the 4th millennium seed I got a few days ago with the other crop in it. Is this something you guys wouldn't even use?


Most of the seed I buy is 0 other crop and 0 weed, but I do buy Scotts and Jonathan Green, or single cultivar seed that sometimes has other crop or weed on the label. I just refuse to use it in certain areas.

-------------------------------------------

@Oregonseed, I have a question about seed keeping.
I've observed several times that seed stored in plastic bags outlasts seed stored in the standard woven bags. I just used some Bewitched KBG seed that was tested in 2013, stored in plastic, and it worked pretty darn well. Does storing in plastic prolong the life versus the woven bags?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Avalawn T said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm new to buying seed so I didn't know, lord knows I have some weeds in the yard so I'm not really worried about a small percentage. As for the 4th millennium seed I got a few days ago with the other crop in it. Is this something you guys wouldn't even use?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the seed I buy is 0 other crop and 0 weed, but I do buy Scotts and Jonathan Green, or single cultivar seed that sometimes has other crop or weed on the label. I just refuse to use it in certain areas.
> 
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> @Oregonseed, I have a question about seed keeping.
> I've observed several times that seed stored in plastic bags outlasts seed stored in the standard woven bags. I just used some Bewitched KBG seed that was tested in 2013, stored in plastic, and it worked pretty darn well. Does storing in plastic prolong the life versus the woven [email protected][mention]Oregonseed
> 
> All depends where you live and the environment it is stored in. Germ can stay good for up to 10yrs if stored in a cool well ventilated area. I cannot say one type of packaging is better than the other. Everything I deal with is in paper or woven poly bags. If you live somewhere like Georgia and the seed is stored in woven bags in a hot shed, ya it's going to burn up pretty fast
> 
> Our seed stock and breeder seed bags are stored in locked walk in freezers. Germ stays good for eternity!
Click to expand...


----------



## Green

I have the seed bags in the basement in cardboard boxes. It's cool and dry in the Winter, and relatively cool in the Summer there, though humidity can go up a bite as the humidity rises outdoors. So far, I've seen seed supplied in plastic bags with the air squeezed out and taped closed work the best.

When you say ventilated, is the cardboard box better than a closed plastic tub (which also probably produces formaldehyde fumes in addition to being closed)?

@Oregonseed, that brings up another question...what does refrigeration or freezing do to prolong life in a standard refrigerator, if anything?


----------



## Wolverine

Weed should be 0.00% no questions asked.


----------



## Urlacher4778

I've been using the Scott's turf builder coated grass seed. The sun and shade mix to be exact due to there being big city owned trees that cast a lot of shade on my front lawn. What type of grass is that in there is it Kentucky blue grass? Or some other kind does anyone know?


----------



## ksturfguy

Urlacher4778 said:


> I've been using the Scott's turf builder coated grass seed. The sun and shade mix to be exact due to there being big city owned trees that cast a lot of shade on my front lawn. What type of grass is that in there is it Kentucky blue grass? Or some other kind does anyone know?


It will tell you right on the label, but this is what I found with a google search. Not sure if different parts of the country get different mixes or not.

9.76% Wendy Jean Creeping Red Fescue
9.75% Fenway Creeping Red Rescue
8.77% Citation Fore Perennial Ryegrass
8.28% Silver Dollar Perennial Ryegrass
6.34% Moonshine Kentucky Bluegrass
2.92% Abbey Kentucky Bluegrass
2.92% Right Kentucky Bluegrass
*50% WaterSmart PLUS Fertilizer Coating*
1% Inert from seed
0.25% other crop seed
0.01% weed seed

What I bolded is why I never use the Scott's grass seed. 1/2 of what your paying for isn't even seed at all. I think value wise you can do a lot better.


----------



## Green

ksturfguy said:


> What I bolded is why I never use the Scott's grass seed. 1/2 of what your paying for isn't even seed at all. I think value wise you can do a lot better.


Same here, but occasionally do find the coating useful in areas where I can't water frequently. I bought one 3-lb (1.5 lb) bag of it last year for that reason (lucky me, it contained "Faith" Tall Fescue, and I managed to get it for a lower price because it was past the sell date). Also, the exact seed varieties they use vary from bag to bag, but the species percentages are the same. Finally, it seems they set a 0.01% weed percentage on everything to cover themselves. Note you have to multiply the other crop percentage by 2, because of the coating.


----------



## Prospect

I am wondering why some reseeding areas the grass is finer and a lighter color than a larger patch I did in the backyard. They were done at different times (is it a maturity issue?) they were all planted this spring with the same batch of SRO Champion GQ seed. Is it a different soil area? Any insight would be helpful. Inquiring minds need to know.


----------



## Prospect

@Oregonseed 
The above question. Soil height? The sun hits both areas about the same. Soil PH? the greener area is a area that a cone pine used to hang over that always had pine needles.
The pictures are every other, I dont know why
I wasnt sure if I had to tag you to answer or not.


----------



## Prospect

Seed Density? competing with the other seed?


----------



## Oregonseed

Prospect said:


> Seed Density? competing with the other seed?


Confused by your post. All of this grass was planted at the same time? Some parts are super dark green and others are light green?


----------



## Prospect

@Oregonseed 
They were planted within a month of each other.
My main question is: 1)why is there difference in color 2)why is there difference in blade width?
Lighter color seems to be a real fine blade, dark color a thicker blade
Same batch of seed
With the lighter/finer areas I used a ton of seed vs. the darker/thicker blade area


----------



## KoopHawk

@Oregonseed When is seed typically harvested? What is the turn around time from harvest to being sold?

I'm leaning towards going with a monostand of Bluebank and noticed that SSS had it available online earlier this spring but it is no longer on their website. I'll be planting a new lawn next spring and am just getting in the initial stages of doing some research and getting a plan together. After seeing how much work some guys here have put in to their new lawns and renos, I'm glad I didn't wait till next March to start researching.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Oregonseed 
So I have a mixture of everst, nuglade, midnight and bewitched. Each at 25%.

I know it wont look as food as a monstand but do you think this mixture will blend well in terms of plant uniformity?


----------



## LIgrass

I got a couple questions...Do you have experience with Bewitched and have you noticed how heavily it can seed?

Another question- Do you know where to find the P-105 type "aggressive" KBG cultivars? They used to be widely available but not anymore. Is it because they tend to be light seeders that they are no longer grown?


----------



## Oregonseed

Prospect said:


> @Oregonseed
> They were planted within a month of each other.
> My main question is: 1)why is there difference in color 2)why is there difference in blade width?
> Lighter color seems to be a real fine blade, dark color a thicker blade
> Same batch of seed
> With the lighter/finer areas I used a ton of seed vs. the darker/thicker blade area


The light green areas are probably still germinating and putting tillers out, while the darker stuff is established. I wouldn't worry...its just grass


----------



## Oregonseed

KoopHawk said:


> @Oregonseed When is seed typically harvested? What is the turn around time from harvest to being sold?
> 
> I'm leaning towards going with a monostand of Bluebank and noticed that SSS had it available online earlier this spring but it is no longer on their website. I'll be planting a new lawn next spring and am just getting in the initial stages of doing some research and getting a plan together. After seeing how much work some guys here have put in to their new lawns and renos, I'm glad I didn't wait till next March to start researching.


Seed is harvested in july/August and starts shipping out ASAP


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, if you look at a label, can the germination percentages and inert matter percentage help you deduce what crop year the seed was from if you're unsure, or at least ballpark it? In other words, how do the germination percentages usually change over time? And why is KBG seed usually only rated 85% germ. max?


----------



## PNW_George

Oregonseed said:


> SixString said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed
> Do you know anything about the specifics of the PRG used at Augusta National?
> 
> The alleged known information is that a team at Rutgers is dedicated to assessing all of the most current variables (climate, predicted soil analysis, etc.). Every year their mission is to produce a Perennial Rye fairway color that exactly matches the "green jacket". After the golf tournament in April, the course keeps the rye for about a month, but then it is Bermuda the rest of the summer until the course shuts down to replace every PRG seed with the new variety in the fall in preparation for the folllowing April.
> 
> Before last year, I would never have believed it. However, I have since seen the hallowed grounds with my own eyes and it is immaculate. But Augusta National won't even tell you which soda you're drinking when you're attending (you order "cola", "diet cola", or "lemon lime"), let alone give out the minutia on their turf.
> 
> Insiders are insiders for a reason. Watcha got?
> 
> 
> 
> I got nothin...its probably a variety widely used. The hype the put around everything is just for attention IMO.
Click to expand...

Augusta National Golf Course is extremely secretive and while your guess is as good as mine, with an unlimited budget and cost no concern approach, it is possible if not likely that ANGC uses a Genetically engineered grass that is not available to the general public.

Below is an interesting read.

The Masters: Agronomic Summary - © April 6, 2018 by David Marcucilli

https://nolayingup.com/2018/04/06/masters-agronomic-summary/


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, if you look at a label, can the germination percentages and inert matter percentage help you deduce what crop year the seed was from if you're unsure, or at least ballpark it? In other words, how do the germination percentages usually change over time? And why is KBG seed usually only rated 85% germ. max?


No, a germ cannot tell you the year. The lot number does.

Every species handles germination different, we cannot produce pure enough seed to get 100%. Prg is around 90%, tf 85, and so on


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, do you have any info about "Insignia" TTTF? I can't find anything about it anywhere.

And a separate question: Does "LTZ" mean anything to you? (It's one of those abbreviations after a variety name.)

Thanks.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, do you have any info about "Insignia" TTTF? I can't find anything about it anywhere.
> 
> And a separate question: Does "LTZ" mean anything to you? (It's one of those abbreviations after a variety name.)
> 
> Thanks.


It is not a certified variety anymore, meaning probably not produced. I did a little research and some newer varieties were bred from the parent material of insignia.
https://i.postimg.cc/CLfLcr36/Screenshot-20190613-203103-Chrome.jpg[/@Oregonseed[[mention]Oregonseed[mention]Oregonseed

Ltz does not ring a bell..


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed, do you have any info about "Insignia" TTTF? I can't find anything about it anywhere.
> 
> And a separate question: Does "LTZ" mean anything to you? (It's one of those abbreviations after a variety name.)
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a certified variety anymore, meaning probably not produced. I did a little research and some newer varieties were bred from the parent material of insignia.
> 
> Ltz does not ring a bell..
Click to expand...

Very interesting, and most begin with "I". Mountain view lists insignia on their site. Not sure if they had a hand in it.


----------



## MMoore

@Oregonseed

im in need of a seed that is extremely tolerant of salt. *I have a "bus stop" at my hell strip and it gets a lot of salt from the public works department* I want it to live more than anything, but being able to match some more lush KBG lawn that I have on the opposite side of the walk would be nice. *I haven't chosen the kbg mix for the lush part yet either*


----------



## Thick n Dense

MMoore said:


> @Oregonseed
> 
> im in need of a seed that is extremely tolerant of salt. *I have a "bus stop" at my hell strip and it gets a lot of salt from the public works department* I want it to live more than anything, but being able to match some more lush KBG lawn that I have on the opposite side of the walk would be nice. *I haven't chosen the kbg mix for the lush part yet either*


Look for that liquid gypsum product you put on hose end and nail it every spring. Gypsum binds with salt and moves put of the soil.

Or is this a canadian problem?


----------



## MMoore

probably both. yeah, im not sure if I can get it... but I will look.

best course of action is to get a grass that can withstand salt as well as possible and then try to battle the sale separately, annually.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Oregonseed said:


> KoopHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed When is seed typically harvested? What is the turn around time from harvest to being sold?
> 
> I'm leaning towards going with a monostand of Bluebank and noticed that SSS had it available online earlier this spring but it is no longer on their website. I'll be planting a new lawn next spring and am just getting in the initial stages of doing some research and getting a plan together. After seeing how much work some guys here have put in to their new lawns and renos, I'm glad I didn't wait till next March to start researching.
> 
> 
> 
> Seed is harvested in july/August and starts shipping out ASAP
Click to expand...

I have a question about this, after thinking about it randomly. If your not harvesting until July/August to get TTTF seed, even if your field is contaminated with POA/etc wouldnt all of those plants have gone through their seeding cycle in Spring and died off to the ground by then due to the heat? If so how does the seed still make it in?


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KoopHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed When is seed typically harvested? What is the turn around time from harvest to being sold?
> 
> I'm leaning towards going with a monostand of Bluebank and noticed that SSS had it available online earlier this spring but it is no longer on their website. I'll be planting a new lawn next spring and am just getting in the initial stages of doing some research and getting a plan together. After seeing how much work some guys here have put in to their new lawns and renos, I'm glad I didn't wait till next March to start researching.
> 
> 
> 
> Seed is harvested in july/August and starts shipping out ASAP
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a question about this, after thinking about it randomly. If your not harvesting until July/August to get TTTF seed, even if your field is contaminated with POA/etc wouldnt all of those plants have gone through their seeding cycle in Spring and died off to the ground by then due to the heat? If so how does the seed still make it in?
Click to expand...

The plants may be dead, but the seed is still present on them and makes it's way into the bag. Killing weeds before they seed is crucial


----------



## Phaseshift

Newbie on lawncare here, I'm trying to decide which seed to put down this late summer/early fall in zone 9a, from my research b SS1000 should get me there? Also is Turf Type Tall Fescue the same as Tall Fescue?


----------



## FORT

@Phaseshift TTTF and fescue are not the same. TTTF are more coarse than kbg, though not as thick as traditional tall fescue commonly used in older lawns. Fescue tends to "bunch" together where TTTF does not. I did a full reno last year and used the SS1000 seed and have had great results!


----------



## Phaseshift

FORT said:


> @Phaseshift TTTF and fescue are not the same. TTTF are more coarse than kbg, though not as thick as traditional tall fescue commonly used in older lawns. Fescue tends to "bunch" together where TTTF does not. I did a full reno last year and used the SS1000 seed and have had great results!


Ahh makes sense, it also make sense that it looks like our new backyard has traditional Fescue. If I overseed with SS1000 will it eventually take over what we have now? Or should I just kill the lawn?


----------



## FORT

@Phaseshift Fescue doesn't spread like kbg so if I was you I would kill off the existing lawn and do a full reno with the SS1000 that way your lawn will be uniformal.


----------



## Phaseshift

FORT said:


> @Phaseshift Fescue doesn't spread like kbg so if I was you I would kill off the existing lawn and do a full reno with the SS1000 that way your lawn will be uniformal.


Would adding KBG be an advantage with our lawn? Although I'm not sure if zone 9a is okay for KBG, we're pretty much in the transition zone.


----------



## FORT

@Phaseshift Adding kbg to TTTF isn't a bad idea, you usually see people do 80:20 or 90:10 mix TTTF to kbg. kbg will fill in spots when the TTTF dies or doesn't take.


----------



## Green

That looks more like TTTF to me than regular Tall Fescue. But it's hard to tell from a photo.


----------



## zeus201

Any experience seeding priming or pre-germinating seeds? Started work on my reno and looking into either method to help cut down a couple days.


----------



## Phaseshift

Green said:


> That looks more like TTTF to me than regular Tall Fescue. But it's hard to tell from a photo.


 Come to think of it I'm pretty sure there's TTF mixed in there for sure


----------



## mattcoughlin

I live in the NW and have a 100% KBG lawn. I am having serious problems with dog pee in my back yard from 2 female miniature schnauzers. I read that PRG does much better with that. Any truth to that? I mow at 5/8" so i can't do fescue.


----------



## KoopHawk

Oregonseed said:


> Seed is harvested in july/August and starts shipping out ASAP


It appears that seed has been harvested and many suppliers are getting their inventory restocked. If I am planting a new lawn next spring, would it be beneficial to secure my seed now and store it over the winter or wait until we get closer to spring to order?


----------



## Jconnelly6b

@KoopHawk why waiting until spring? Fall is significantly better for seeding.

If you must seed in spring, I would buy the seed after Christmas. Chances of a reputable seed vendor having better storage conditions than you are high.


----------



## KoopHawk

Jconnelly6b said:


> @KoopHawk why waiting until spring? Fall is significantly better for seeding.
> 
> If you must seed in spring, I would buy the seed after Christmas. Chances of a reputable seed vendor having better storage conditions than you are high.


Building a new house and won't be ready for seed this fall. Wife and 2 little kids won't want a dirt/mud yard next summer so I'll be doing a spring seeding. I'll have in ground irrigation so even if it gets hot early I should be able to weather it.

If I would buy seed now, I would likely store it in my parents basement. Their home is 15 years old. Cool, dark, climate controlled, up off the floor. Not sure what optimal storage for seed is but that has to be pretty close I would imagine? I just figured the best pricing would be now while supply is high.


----------



## pennstater2005

FYI:

Oregon Seed hasn't posted in this thread for over 2 months.


----------



## Phaseshift

Who offered the best cool season grass seeds? The elite of the elite ?


----------



## Green

pennstater2005 said:


> FYI:
> 
> Oregon Seed hasn't posted in this thread for over 2 months.


This is a busy time for people in that industry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up again in a week or two.


----------



## pennstater2005

Green said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Oregon Seed hasn't posted in this thread for over 2 months.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a busy time for people in that industry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up again in a week or two.
Click to expand...

He has been logged on since then, just not posting.


----------



## tgreen

@Oregonseed Do you know how the germination % on the tag is determined? For example, if the germination rate is tagged at 80%, who actually determines that? Is it the distributor of the seed, e.g., Scott's or Pennington or is it determined by the grower? Thanks


----------



## Oregonseed

KoopHawk said:


> Jconnelly6b said:
> 
> 
> 
> @KoopHawk why waiting until spring? Fall is significantly better for seeding.
> 
> If you must seed in spring, I would buy the seed after Christmas. Chances of a reputable seed vendor having better storage conditions than you are high.
> 
> 
> 
> Building a new house and won't be ready for seed this fall. Wife and 2 little kids won't want a dirt/mud yard next summer so I'll be doing a spring seeding. I'll have in ground irrigation so even if it gets hot early I should be able to weather it.
> 
> If I would buy seed now, I would likely store it in my parents basement. Their home is 15 years old. Cool, dark, climate controlled, up off the floor. Not sure what optimal storage for seed is but that has to be pretty close I would imagine? I just figured the best pricing would be now while supply is high.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be in a rush, grass seed never runs out. I would probably wait until the new year to purchase. Storing in hot months can be risky. Winter months not so much.

I prefer spring seeding, at least here in oregon. Once its warm enough it only gets warmer. You can have a full lawn and mowing in two months, just lay on the water as much as possible.


----------



## Oregonseed

pennstater2005 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI:
> 
> Oregon Seed hasn't posted in this thread for over 2 months.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a busy time for people in that industry, so I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up again in a week or two.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He has been logged on since then, just not posting.
Click to expand...

Hey I'm here 😀 nobody asking (good) questions so I had nothing to post!


----------



## Oregonseed

tgreen said:


> @oregonseed Do you know how the germination % on the tag is determined? For example, if the germination rate is tagged at 80%, who actually determines that? Is it the distributor of the seed, e.g., Scott's or Pennington or is it determined by the grower? Thanks


Its determined by what lab the seed sample is taken to. They are generally privately owned and have nothing to do with who you bought the seed from. They are all accredited labs with years of experience, not some farmer or office guy writing fictious numbers on a tag!

A few hundred seeds are planted and then prechilled for a week (sometimes hot seed fresh out of the field does not germ well, I've seen this happen). Then they are given two weeks to "germinate" and the percentage is written down.


----------



## Socks

I think this is in the spirit of this thread - I just bought a 25lb bag of super turf II ls to overseed with in a few weeks. Since it is a different TTTF blend from what I've been using (my lawn is pure TTTF though so same grass type) are there any additional steps you would recommend to help the newer blend and varieties take a larger hold over the older varieties for an overseed? I'm looking at a Reno for next year unless this overseed comes in perfect and a majority of the new blend takes hold, but wanted to increase my chances.

Link to blend https://unitedseeds.com/product/super-turf-ii-ls/


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, hope it's going well.

I had some annual ryegrass germinate from some 0/0 Blue Tag PR seed. I'm not sure which cultivar was contaminated, since I bought 3 different ones. Is there any way to track these things down, and is there any recourse or at least peace of mind that can be achieved? It definitely came from the seed; I've never had Annual Ryegrass before.


----------



## rockinmylawn

If I am looking @ a particular seed in my local Southern State mix & the only reference to it on the NTEP database is from a 1998-2000 report.

Is that data too outdated to be useful?

Specifically, this is a Falcon III seed, so am afraid that there have been advances in testing methodology & even subsequent improvement of the Falcon cultivar since then to render that report outdated.

I also thought I saw a comment or report recently that said seed data from NTEP tests going back to 2008 are still relevant.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, hope it's going well.
> 
> I had some annual ryegrass germinate from some 0/0 Blue Tag PR seed. I'm not sure which cultivar was contaminated, since I bought 3 different ones. Is there any way to track these things down, and is there any recourse or at least peace of mind that can be achieved? It definitely came from the seed; I've never had Annual Ryegrass before.


Certified blue tag seed does not mean 0/0. Certified blue tag PRG allows up to 3% annual ryegrass, was it cover tagged as zero crop and weed? I would be interested to see a picture of the tags and annual in the lawn..there is a term called fluorescence in ryegrass. Do some research if you are bored.


----------



## Oregonseed

rockinmylawn said:


> If I am looking @ a particular seed in my local Southern State mix & the only reference to it on the NTEP database is from a 1998-2000 report.
> 
> Is that data too outdated to be useful?
> 
> Specifically, this is a Falcon III seed, so am afraid that there have been advances in testing methodology & even subsequent improvement of the Falcon cultivar since then to render that report outdated.
> 
> I also thought I saw a comment or report recently that said seed data from NTEP tests going back to 2008 are still relevant.


I know yards that have falcon, it's a good variety. But only as good as you manage it! Dont forget that.

It is not old and fescue has not changed drastically since 2008. I would have no hesitation buying it...NTEP is a joke anyways. Read earlier posts


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oregonseed, hope it's going well.
> 
> I had some annual ryegrass germinate from some 0/0 Blue Tag PR seed. I'm not sure which cultivar was contaminated, since I bought 3 different ones. Is there any way to track these things down, and is there any recourse or at least peace of mind that can be achieved? It definitely came from the seed; I've never had Annual Ryegrass before.
> 
> 
> 
> Certified blue tag seed does not mean 0/0. Certified blue tag PRG allows up to 3% annual ryegrass, was it cover tagged as zero crop and weed? I would be interested to see a picture of the tags and annual in the lawn..there is a term called fluorescence in ryegrass. Do some research if you are bored.
Click to expand...

Yes, it was all listed as 0/0. The thing is, I bought three different varieties and blended it myself, so I have no idea which one(s) have the contamination unless I do some testing.

Yes, it's annual ryegrass. Not too much, but enough to notice. It looks more like Tall Fescue in some respects than PR. But it came from huge seedlings. I've never seen it before.

I will try to get a shot for you, and I will look up the term.

Thanks.


----------



## Green

Hi @Oregonseed.

Is it possible to trace seed lots to determine if they're known to be contaminated? One of my 3 PR varieties is contaminated with annual ryegrass, and I am willing to bet it's either the Karma or Fiesta 4.

Additionally, do you know anything about America, Rugby II, or Bewitched KBG potentially having Triv contamination?

All seed is Blue Tag and marked 0 weed and 0 other crop.

Thanks.

Annual Ryegrass:





































Seed tags:


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Hi @Oregonseed.
> 
> Is it possible to trace seed lots to determine if they're known to be contaminated? One of my 3 PR varieties is contaminated with annual ryegrass, and I am willing to bet it's either the Karma or Fiesta 4.
> 
> Additionally, do you know anything about America, Rugby II, or Bewitched KBG potentially having Triv contamination?
> 
> All seed is Blue Tag and marked 0 weed and 0 other crop.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Annual Ryegrass:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seed tags:


Both varieties have what I consider high fluorescence, anything over 1% you will probably see some off type grasses. Fluorescence can also change over time due to annual plants surving longer..the fluorescence level is set when the variety is developed. Like I said do some research on fluorescence it is a very complex subject.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Hi @Oregonseed.
> 
> Is it possible to trace seed lots to determine if they're known to be contaminated? One of my 3 PR varieties is contaminated with annual ryegrass, and I am willing to bet it's either the Karma or Fiesta 4.
> 
> Additionally, do you know anything about America, Rugby II, or Bewitched KBG potentially having Triv contamination?
> 
> All seed is Blue Tag and marked 0 weed and 0 other crop.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Annual Ryegrass:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seed tags:


Triv is the most difficult weed to control in bluegrass production, like poa in tall fescue. Just because the tag says it is crop and weed free is not 100% accurate. Out of 55,000lbs roughly 50 grams is analyzed...pretty high probability a weed seed or two can go un recognized end up in the bag you buy.

We often resample lots to get different results! One test will show poa so we resample and it comes back with no poa! We all know there is poa present but now can be sold as crop and weed free


----------



## Ecubed

Hey there @@Oregonseed

I like to "google" my varieties in my seed and from the little research I've done it appears that Falcon IV and Rendition RX are rhizomatous Tall fescue. Do you have any knowledge about that being true? Thanks


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Another one for @Oregonseed. I purchased Mazama KBG directly from Vista Seeds who grows it. Bag said Origin: Oregon as i drove down to Shedd, OR and picked it up from their office.

Another user here bought straight Mazama through a distributor, but his bag said the Origin was Washington.

The kicker is, we had the exact same Lot #, exact same #'s across the board for germination/purity/weed/other/etc. How can the same Lot # originate in both Oregon and Washington on two different bags.


----------



## Oregonseed

Ecubed said:


> Hey there @@Oregonseed
> 
> I like to "google" my varieties in my seed and from the little research I've done it appears that Falcon IV and Rendition RX are rhizomatous Tall fescue. Do you have any knowledge about that being true? Thanks


I believe the rendition is and falcon is not..dont quote me on it.


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Another one for @Oregonseed. I purchased Mazama KBG directly from Vista Seeds who grows it. Bag said Origin: Oregon as i drove down to Shedd, OR and picked it up from their office.
> 
> Another user here bought straight Mazama through a distributor, but his bag said the Origin was Washington.
> 
> The kicker is, we had the exact same Lot #, exact same #'s across the board for germination/purity/weed/other/etc. How can the same Lot # originate in both Oregon and Washington on two different bags.


Do you have a picture of the tags or know the lot number?


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Oregonseed said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another one for @Oregonseed. I purchased Mazama KBG directly from Vista Seeds who grows it. Bag said Origin: Oregon as i drove down to Shedd, OR and picked it up from their office.
> 
> Another user here bought straight Mazama through a distributor, but his bag said the Origin was Washington.
> 
> The kicker is, we had the exact same Lot #, exact same #'s across the board for germination/purity/weed/other/etc. How can the same Lot # originate in both Oregon and Washington on two different bags.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a picture of the tags or know the lot number?
Click to expand...

His bag (ksturfguy)









My bag


----------



## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> Another one for @Oregonseed. I purchased Mazama KBG directly from Vista Seeds who grows it. Bag said Origin: Oregon as i drove down to Shedd, OR and picked it up from their office.
> 
> Another user here bought straight Mazama through a distributor, but his bag said the Origin was Washington.
> 
> The kicker is, we had the exact same Lot #, exact same #'s across the board for germination/purity/weed/other/etc. How can the same Lot # originate in both Oregon and Washington on two different bags.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have a picture of the tags or know the lot number?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> His bag (ksturfguy)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My bag
> https://i.postimg.cc/wxw0LpV9/2019-07-24-11-38-40.jpg[/img[USER=5397]@Oregonseed[/USER]
> 
> Hmm interesting. It is definitely a Washington lot number and was produced in washington, as a washington certified tag was granted. I'm assuming vista brought this lot down from washington and rebagged it into their own bag in oregon (I know the warehouse that does their blending) and slapped an oregon origin tag which is false. Origin stands for where it was produced so that is false labeling. I would call them...
Click to expand...


----------



## TomTurf

@Oregonseed

Question about whether KBG can out compete P Ryegrass in a newly renovated home lawn.

I'm in Eastern Washington state, so we do hit lows of 10F during the winters
typically, and 6 weeks of 95+ temps in mid summer. I have in-ground
irrigation and 5,000 of 60% KBG and 40% P Ryegrass at establishment
this fall. That's the plant ratio not the seeding weight ratio.

*Question will I end up with 99% KBG in 3 to 5 years? That's what I've been told.*

Thanks for info
Tom

Q


----------



## Oregonseed

TomTurf said:


> @Oregonseed
> 
> Question about whether KBG can out compete P Ryegrass in a newly renovated home lawn.
> 
> I'm in Eastern Washington state, so we do hit lows of 10F during the winters
> typically, and 6 weeks of 95+ temps in mid summer. I have in-ground
> irrigation and 5,000 of 60% KBG and 40% P Ryegrass at establishment
> this fall. That's the plant ratio not the seeding weight ratio.
> 
> *Question will I end up with 99% KBG in 3 to 5 years? That's what I've been told.*
> 
> Thanks for info
> Tom
> 
> Q


Yeah, the kbg will certainly stick around longer than the p rye. I would be worried about the other crop and weed seed in the bag of seed you bought!


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, speaking of weed and other crop, what kinds of weeds and other crop are usually in Tri-Rye blends? Years ago, I used to use Allied Seed Ryegrass (ASP6001, etc.) mixed with VNS KBG, and have a feeling a lot of the Poa Triv I have was from there. Since then, I've shyed away from those products. But they are some really good Ryegrasses, and I can get a Tri-blend of just the Ryegrasses without the KBG under the Agway brand (the name for the Southern States Cooperative in the North) brand. The thing is, they do have some weed and other crop percentages in them. Would I be highly risking more Triv again with just a Ryegrass blend and no KBG in it?


----------



## Wolverine

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, speaking of weed and other crop, what kinds of weeds and other crop are usually in Tri-Rye blends? Years ago, I used to use Allied Seed Ryegrass (ASP6001, etc.) mixed with VNS KBG, and have a feeling a lot of the Poa Triv I have was from there. Since then, I've shyed away from those products. But they are some really good Ryegrasses, and I can get a Tri-blend of just the Ryegrasses without the KBG under the Agway brand (the name for the Southern States Cooperative in the North) brand. The thing is, they do have some weed and other crop percentages in them. Would I be highly risking more Triv again with just a Ryegrass blend and no KBG in i@Oregonseed
> 
> I was told by SSS that perennial rye blends or mono by default will have some annual ryegrass.


----------



## Green

Wolverine said:


> I was told by SSS that perennial rye blends or mono by default will have some annual ryegrass.


Yes, Wolverine, I experienced that for the first time last year. And read about the fluorescence thing. More concerned about Triv, though. But Ryegrass is a bigger seed, and I know it's easier to separate out. Was more wondering about that specific brand and what contaminants are common in it. And if Tri-Rye blends of the same brand might have as big a risk of Triv as those mixed with KBG, assuming the other crop and weed percentages are still a bit higher than I'd like to see. @Oregonseed I can provide a label.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Id be extatic if all i got in a seed mix is annual rye as the contaminant. Easy to spot and pull, or just let die out after the first year.


----------



## Green

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Id be extatic if all i got in a seed mix is annual rye as the contaminant. Easy to spot and pull, or just let die out after the first year.


Remains to be seen if mine dies out this Winter. It did not over the Summer. It was around 90 for 6 weeks.


----------



## nwlawnguy

Are you familiar with Barenbrug RTF Turf Saver vs Barenbrug RTF Water Saver? My sod is Turf Saver and was told I could use Water Saver for overseeding but not quite sure. What are your thoughts?

Thanks,


----------



## GVcubs

I have a quick question. i am looking for some affordable cool season grass seed for a little league baseball field i am volunteering to help renovate. Thus far i am finding very little help on this topic.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

I'd think for that, some bulk bags of some Lesco mix at Site One would probably be your best option. Depending on what your going for, even the bottom of the barrel contractors mixes with a bunch of annual rye mixed with perennial rye might be the best option since it'll be playable probably in a week or two. You wont be Wrigley field, but if you just want to not be a mud pit...


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Wolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was told by SSS that perennial rye blends or mono by default will have some annual ryegrass.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, Wolverine, I experienced that for the first time last year. And read about the fluorescence thing. More concerned about Triv, though. But Ryegrass is a bigger seed, and I know it's easier to separate out. Was more wondering about that specific brand and what contaminants are common in it. And if Tri-Rye blends of the same brand might have as big a risk of Triv as those mixed with KBG, assuming the other crop and weed percentages are still a bit higher than I'd like to see. @Oregonseed I can provide a label.
Click to expand...

Excuse my absence, please? Triv is more commonly associated with kbg. There is very little to no triv contamination where ryegrass is grown.


----------



## Oregonseed

nwlawnguy said:


> Are you familiar with Barenbrug RTF Turf Saver vs Barenbrug RTF Water Saver? My sod is Turf Saver and was told I could use Water Saver for overseeding but not quite sure. What are your thoughts?
> 
> Thanks,


Those are brand names. They can stick any variety in a brand name, look at the tag closely.


----------



## Oregonseed

GVcubs said:


> I have a quick question. i am looking for some affordable cool season grass seed for a little league baseball field i am volunteering to help renovate. Thus far i am finding very little help on this topic.


Fuzze had some great suggestions. Visit any local dealers and see if they would be willing to help sponsor or donate some seed?


----------



## ArtOfWar626

@Oregonseed Is there a benefit to seeding a lawn with a tall fescue blend vs sticking to one type of seed like let's say 4th Millennium Tall Fescue from Turf Merchants? What is your preference and why?


----------



## Oregonseed

ArtOfWar626 said:


> @Oregonseed Is there a benefit to seeding a lawn with a tall fescue blend vs sticking to one type of seed like let's say 4th Millennium Tall Fescue from Turf Merchants? What is your preference and why?


The correct answer is probably a blend because they will all protect differently and withstand different conditions. Kinda like spreading your risk in the stock market.

I prefer one variety. Probably more work but everything is homogeneous and it looks really good. But when its stressed, the whole yard is stressed and so on..


----------



## ArtOfWar626

Oregonseed said:


> ArtOfWar626 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed Is there a benefit to seeding a lawn with a tall fescue blend vs sticking to one type of seed like let's say 4th Millennium Tall Fescue from Turf Merchants? What is your preference and why?
> 
> 
> 
> The correct answer is probably a blend because they will all protect differently and withstand different conditions. Kinda like spreading your risk in the stock market.
> 
> I prefer one variety. Probably more work but everything is homogeneous and it looks really good. But when its stressed, the whole yard is stressed and so on..
Click to expand...

Thanks!


----------



## MMM

What are your thoughts about poa supina ?


----------



## Oregonseed

MMM said:


> What are your thoughts about poa supina ?


Dont know a ton about it except it is very very expensive!


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, Poa contamination is a fairly substantial problem currently, especially in KBG seed. I've read that most of it is due to Poa annua and Poa Trivialis (especially) growing in the seed fields in some locations.

Methiozolin, a new chemistry that kills Poa, is currently earning approval for use on Bentgrass, Ryegrass, and other non-Poa annua or -trivialis golf fairways. It is deemed safe for KBG, Rye, and Fescue turf. Do you think it (or other chemicals) could one day get approval for use in grass seed production fields to reduce Poa contamination in KBG seed, etc.? Are herbicides actually used currently? Or are herbicides frowned upon in the seed production industry in general?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, Poa contamination is a fairly substantial problem currently, especially in KBG seed. I've read that most of it is due to Poa annua and Poa Trivialis (especially) growing in the seed fields in some locations.
> 
> Methiozolin, a new chemistry that kills Poa, is currently earning approval for use on Bentgrass, Ryegrass, and other non-Poa annua or -trivialis golf fairways. It is deemed safe for KBG, Rye, and Fescue turf. Do you think it (or other chemicals) could one day get approval for use in grass seed production fields to reduce Poa contamination in KBG seed, etc.? Are herbicides actually used currently? Or are herbicides frowned upon in the seed production industry in general?


What a cool question. I often think about this and wonder the possibilities of how good our seed production could be.

Herbicides are currently used but nothing is perfect or has amazing results. It all comes down to the label. Most of the turf approved herbicides are not labeled for 'seed production'. We are a small industry so hard to fund research to get things labeled for us..people go where the money is.

Theres a lot more to it but that's the basics. Goal, rely, duiron are some common ones we use. There are some new ones in the works but it takes a long time for approval and lots of testing. We usually run into the issue of the chemical affecting seed yield. A clean field is great, but has to benefit the grower from a financial standpoint.

On a side note, my company is putting out seed production contracts with a sod bonus. Growers get paid a little extra for ultra clean sod quality seed.


----------



## jgturnier

@Oregonseed How do you feel about 4th Millenium as a mono for a yard in KC (transition zone). Should I absolutely add a 2nd or 3rd? I'm killing my KBG because of fungus issues and switching to TTTF


----------



## Ohio Lawn

jgturnier said:


> @Oregonseed How do you feel about 4th Millenium as a mono for a yard in KC (transition zone). Should I absolutely add a 2nd or 3rd? I'm killing my KBG because of fungus issues and switching to TTTF


I'd love to hear the answer to this question. Thanks for asking it.


----------



## jgturnier

@Ohio Lawn I spoke with several seed companies and the overwhelming consensus was to go with several cultivars. With only one genetic cultivar, the risk of disease obliterating your yard is too high. I suppose if you have the ability / cash to go ALL IN to manage a mono plant then maybe it is worth it. I want to step up my yard game, but I don't want it to be my full time hobby.

Since I lived in KC, I researched the data from KSU, and also the NTEP data in Columbia MO and Wichita. I looked at several sources and also balanced against what is commercially available at this time. I prioritized genetic color, then leaf texture (fine), and then disease tolerance. I ended up choosing the following: TRAVERSE 2 SRP, REBOUNDER (PICK-W43), 4TH MILLENNIUM SRP, AVENGER II (PPG-TF-156). Rebounder looked like the leader in almost all the data I saw.

I also learned that there are an AMAZING amount of cultivars. Why? I have no idea. It seems like we would have reached the end of the road by now. I also learned that the data appears to be very subjective and has wide standard deviations. I learned that the data can fluctuate from year to year. So my ultimate conclusion is that if you pick the upper tier you are most likely good to go. Also, my wife thinks I am insane, and she might be right.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

jgturnier said:


> @Ohio Lawn I spoke with several seed companies and the overwhelming consensus was to go with several cultivars. With only one genetic cultivar, the risk of disease obliterating your yard is too high. I suppose if you have the ability / cash to go ALL IN to manage a mono plant then maybe it is worth it. I want to step up my yard game, but I don't want it to be my full time hobby.
> 
> Since I lived in KC, I researched the data from KSU, and also the NTEP data in Columbia MO and Wichita. I looked at several sources and also balanced against what is commercially available at this time. I prioritized genetic color, then leaf texture (fine), and then disease tolerance. I ended up choosing the following: TRAVERSE 2 SRP, REBOUNDER (PICK-W43), 4TH MILLENNIUM SRP, AVENGER II (PPG-TF-156). Rebounder looked like the leader in almost all the data I saw.
> 
> I also learned that there are an AMAZING amount of cultivars. Why? I have no idea. It seems like we would have reached the end of the road by now. I also learned that the data appears to be very subjective and has wide standard deviations. I learned that the data can fluctuate from year to year. So my ultimate conclusion is that if you pick the upper tier you are most likely good to go. Also, my wife thinks I am insane, and she might be right.


Great info. I asked because last fall I planted a new lawn using SS1000 mix from SeedSuperstore. At that time, the mix contained Regenerate, 4th Millennium, Amity, and Raptor III. Now the mix uses Avenger II instead of Regenerate, and the other three remain the same. I have no experience with Avenger II. How do you like it so far?


----------



## jgturnier

@Ohio Lawn I haven't done it yet. I am going to kill off my KBG lawn this late summer and seed in the TTTF mix. You might consider Hogan Seed. They were super helpful and seem to have good quality seed. Also United Seed has lower prices....maybe too much crop and weed seed....dunno.


----------



## double_e5

@jgturnier I did a TTTF renovation for my mom last year and went with the Hogan Blend (Firebird 2, GTO, Hemi in the blend I got). I was like you and analyzed it to death with the same NTEP sites. Gave Hogan a call and they felt confident I'd be happy with the blend. It has surprised me. I've been pretty hands off with it and I think it looks pretty good for the work that's gone into it. Makes me think about nuking my *** sometimes...

I snapped a picture a couple weekends ago. It's trampled all to hell from me doing a fertilizer app and spot spraying weeds. I'm sure a little more maintenance would have it looking unbelievable:


----------



## MasonDixon

Oregonseed said:


> Ask away!


I live around the border of MD & PA (zone 7) and i noticed some bare patches in my yard as well as some patches of significant weeds, such as clovers, without much grass under. My concert with killing the weeds is that I'll be left with even more bare patches. Is it possible to still grow grass in zone 7 if I planted this week? Or is it impossible, and I must wait until fall?


----------



## zibbiz

Hi. Is it a good idea to pre germinate grass seeds? I'm thinking of filling up my wheelbarrow with top soil and grass seeds. Moisten. Cover. Thoughts?


----------



## Oregonseed

jgturnier said:


> @Oregonseed How do you feel about 4th Millenium as a mono for a yard in KC (transition zone). Should I absolutely add a 2nd or 3rd? I'm killing my KBG because of fungus issues and switching to TTTF


Normally I'd say go for it but transition zone is tricky. Could ways try a mono stand and if it dosent work then you know?


----------



## Oregonseed

zibbiz said:


> Hi. Is it a good idea to pre germinate grass seeds? I'm thinking of filling up my wheelbarrow with top soil and grass seeds. Moisten. Cover. Thoughts?


I would not reccomend...grass seed is easy to germinate, dont complicate it.


----------



## JerseyGreens

Question on BlueBank (the new and improved Midnight).

I'm going to use it as a monostand in my front lawn - I'm in NJ. People have mixed it into their reno's but from the NJ forums I'm the first to do a mono with it.

Any thoughts, advices?


----------



## KoopHawk

JerseyGreens said:


> Question on BlueBank (the new and improved Midnight).
> 
> I'm going to use it as a monostand in my front lawn - I'm in NJ. People have mixed it into their reno's but from the NJ forums I'm the first to do a mono with it.
> 
> Any thoughts, advices?


I am on day 24 of a Bluebank monostand. So far so good. Had germination on day 6. Some of the plants are getting their 3rd and 4th leaves and are coming out of the pout stage.


----------



## JerseyGreens

good spread for day 24. Thank you!


----------



## ksturfguy

jgturnier said:


> @Ohio Lawn I haven't done it yet. I am going to kill off my KBG lawn this late summer and seed in the TTTF mix. You might consider Hogan Seed. They were super helpful and seem to have good quality seed. Also United Seed has lower prices....maybe too much crop and weed seed....dunno.


Did you check out the GrassPad or just didn't like their options?


----------



## SixteenLaramie

What is the best grass seed for striping in Zone 6 (Transition Zone)? I'm guessing it would be a wide blade but what cultivars are good? And should I use a local seed store or can I get bulk deals elsewhere? I'm not opposed to either local pickup or ship to me. Thanks!


----------



## ksturfguy

SixteenLaramie said:


> What is the best grass seed for striping in Zone 6 (Transition Zone)? I'm guessing it would be a wide blade but what cultivars are good? And should I use a local seed store or can I get bulk deals elsewhere? I'm not opposed to either local pickup or ship to me. Thanks!


Really any of your cool season grasses like TTTF (Tall Turf Type Fescue) or KBG (Kentucky Bluegrass) will stripe good. Your local seed store will most likely be a lot cheaper vs an online store but the quality might not be as good. So really depends what is more important to you. You might also get lucky and your local store sells a very good grass seed too.


----------



## tbo45

Newbie to the forum here.

My lawn is so-so, in my opinion. Some good spots but a few rough areas as well. I'm in northern Wisconsin so some harsh winters so I definitely want a repairing seed.

Going to overseed this fall, thinking mid-late August.

Looking at some sort of TTTF/KBG mix but i've seen people worried about KBG getting pushed out in an overseed and like I mentioned I want a repairing seed.

Any good recommendations? Willing to spend for good seed but I'm a money guy so always looking for good values too.


----------



## JerseyGreens

I "was" and still sort of am a TTTF enthusiast but I'm moving to 100% KBG in my lawn reno...got tired of Brown Patch and other lawn diseases that killed my TTTF...although I will say I had a no name mix of seed.

Ask yourself - what HOC do you like? If low....like a carpet then lean KBG.
If you like your grass high - then TTTF.


----------



## SixteenLaramie

JerseyGreens said:


> I "was" and still sort of am a TTTF enthusiast but I'm moving to 100% KBG in my lawn reno...got tired of Brown Patch and other lawn diseases that killed my TTTF...although I will say I had a no name mix of seed.
> 
> Ask yourself - what HOC do you like? If low....like a carpet then lean KBG.
> If you like your grass high - then TTTF.


KBG can get a bit expensive. Are you transitioning over time? Also doesnt it turn brown (go dorment) in the winter? Do you overseed with rye or wheat?


----------



## ksturfguy

SixteenLaramie said:


> JerseyGreens said:
> 
> 
> 
> I "was" and still sort of am a TTTF enthusiast but I'm moving to 100% KBG in my lawn reno...got tired of Brown Patch and other lawn diseases that killed my TTTF...although I will say I had a no name mix of seed.
> 
> Ask yourself - what HOC do you like? If low....like a carpet then lean KBG.
> If you like your grass high - then TTTF.
> 
> 
> 
> KBG can get a bit expensive. Are you transitioning over time? Also doesnt it turn brown (go dorment) in the winter? Do you overseed with rye or wheat?
Click to expand...

TTTF will turn brown in the winter too.


----------



## occamsrzr

tbo45 said:


> Newbie to the forum here.
> 
> My lawn is so-so, in my opinion. Some good spots but a few rough areas as well. I'm in northern Wisconsin so some harsh winters so I definitely want a repairing seed.
> 
> Going to overseed this fall, thinking mid-late August.
> 
> Looking at some sort of TTTF/KBG mix but i've seen people worried about KBG getting pushed out in an overseed and like I mentioned I want a repairing seed.
> 
> Any good recommendations? Willing to spend for good seed but I'm a money guy so always looking for good values too.


I think TTTF/KBG mix is a good option. TTTF may slowly die off with the KBG spreading to fill these spots. South of you, they've ran some experiments of using TTTF in Minnesota. The thing that usually kills it off is prolonged periods of ice cover. This might prove more of a problem for you. A mix of 75% TTTF to 25% KBG by weight might be a good combo of these two. This is roughly 1:1 by seed count.

https://turf.umn.edu/news/can-we-use-tall-fescue-lawns-minnesota


----------



## Cam3113

I am a newb and I have a couple of questions! I live in Central MN, and my yard is mainly KBG/Fescue. I have a decent front yard and a decent backyard except in the back there are some urine spots from my dog, and some dead spots. I am making a dog run this summer so I can overseed in the fall. I have a few seeds picked out that I am interested in, but I do not know much about them other than what I've researched. The ones that caught my eye are, GCI Turf Type Blend, Rhizing Moon Tall Fescue, because of the color and ability to repair itself, Barenbrug Turf Saver Rtf, for the same reasons as the latter, GCI Cool Blue, and Combat Extreme, Northern Zone. They all seem like they would do well where I live. My front yard is mainly sun all day and backyard is sun/shade mix... Pics of yard below... Any input/help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, I know it's a busy time for you. But when you have the chance, here's another question.

I watched some videos about seed growing from various perspectives, including the farmers. Big takeaways were: farmers like seed yield and good straw producing varieties because they can also sell the straw post harvest.

With clean straw being in such demand for lawn seeding and being hard to get, I have an idea.

Why doesn't some enterprising individual start selling the straw from the grass seed harvests as straw to use during lawn seeding? I have used supposed weed free straw and ended up pulling probably a couple thousand Timothy plants over a multi-year period. Never again.

But this could all be eliminated if the original straw from the seed fields could be marketed and sold to landscapers and homeowners for seeding purposes.

Might not work in a monostand if there are a few off-variety seeds left over in the plant material of the straw (e.g. inside stems). But for a mixed lawn, it would work great. Why not use and sell the turfgrass straw for lawn seeding?


----------



## shoepad

How does Pennington Signature Series Fescue / Bluegrass Gold Tag seed, compare to other similar products on the grass seed market from various other venders.


----------



## Captquin

@Oregonseed Any thoughts on the KBG's/hybrids more suited to the transition zone? Currently using the Barenbrug Turf Blue HGT and wondering how it would compare to one of the Kentucky/Texas bluegrass hybrids, such as SPF-30, Thermal Blue, etc.

Thanks and take care.


----------



## Matthew_73

What is Soil Moist.. Is it worth it.

Are there any advantages of Hydrotain being applied on new grass seed/reno?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, I know it's a busy time for you. But when you have the chance, here's another question.
> 
> I watched some videos about seed growing from various perspectives, including the farmers. Big takeaways were: farmers like seed yield and good straw producing varieties because they can also sell the straw post harvest.
> 
> With clean straw being in such demand for lawn seeding and being hard to get, I have an idea.
> 
> Why doesn't some enterprising individual start selling the straw from the grass seed harvests as straw to use during lawn seeding? I have used supposed weed free straw and ended up pulling probably a couple thousand Timothy plants over a multi-year period. Never again.
> 
> But this could all be eliminated if the original straw from the seed fields could be marketed and sold to landscapers and homeowners for seeding purposes.
> 
> Might not work in a monostand if there are a few off-variety seeds left over in the plant material of the straw (e.g. inside stems). But for a mixed lawn, it would work great. Why not use and sell the turfgrass straw for lawn seeding?


Hey sorry for the absence, very busy time indeed. Our grass seed harvest is pretty much over now we just gotta clean and ship millions of pounds! 
All of our straw here is shipped overseas for bedding or cheap filler feed. It has very little feed value since it is post harvest dried out straw..not like hay.
Kind of as you mentioned there is still seed often in straw. I would never use any sort of straw in my lawn, ever. Just because I know it will contaminate thing one way or another. 
The only way you could do it safely would to use straw from a fescue field in your solid fescue lawn. Even then there are a lot of complications and not sure how you would QC something like that. 
Interesting question no doubt but I dont think there's a good way to do it. I would have done it by now


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, thanks. I can tell you, I'd rather use Tall Fescue straw on my mixed seedings that include Tall Fescue, than something else. The first and last two times I used "weed free" straw from a forage grass, it was a disaster. Weed free is not seed free, after all.

But I'd use the Turf Type Tall Fescue straw...if you guys can make it happen. Sometimes you just need straw. Maybe renew the market research...you might be surprised the demand that could be out there...I'm pretty typical when it comes to the DIY customer. I can't be the only one. People use straw germ blankets, too, after all. If the demand is there, and you can make it happen, I thank you in advance.

Not sure I'd trust KBG straw, though.


----------



## AndyS

@Oregonseed what's the optimal way to store KBG grass seed to improve germination? Would you store it in a cooler room, or would you chill it somehow?


----------



## Oregonseed

AndyS said:


> @Oregonseed what's the optimal way to store KBG grass seed to improve germination? Would you store it in a cooler room, or would you chill it somehow?


The colder and more dry the better! We often store germplasm or the last few pounds of a variety in commercial freezers. Germ will hold many years if frozen. We have small baggies of random seed in our brek room freezer


----------



## jdm789

Which seed would you go with for North Carolina? Thanks


----------



## uts

@Oregonseed is there a way to determine growth rate of different cultivars of KBG to form a more even growing blend?


----------



## JerseyGreens

uts said:


> @Oregonseed is there a way to determine growth rate of different cultivars of KBG to form a more even growing blend?


Holy smokes that is a great freaking question. I will say this since I went mono on my Reno. I have different growth rates on my monostand in the same yard. I can imagine field testing this accurately but all bets are off once seed down.

Watering, sun, shade, soil - all different inputs occur even on my 6,500 sq feet.

I think it's possible but it would prove difficult once it's in the customers hands to say a particular seed blend has the same exact growth rate.


----------



## uts

@JerseyGreens I have had a close eye on your reno since you started and I must say it is really coming together even with all the washouts. From what I have read KBG takes at least a year to mature as a lawn and that is where that judgement will be better. With reel mowing the lawn does smooth out from what I see. I read through pete1313 journal a few times for this reason especially the subsequent year to see how it matures and looks.

Also with some PGR I think it will much closer as well. Just trying to decide seed for next year


----------



## JerseyGreens

uts said:


> @JerseyGreens I have had a close eye on your reno since you started and I must say it is really coming together even with all the washouts. From what I have read KBG takes at least a year to mature as a lawn and that is where that judgement will be better. With reel mowing the lawn does smooth out from what I see. I read through pete1313 journal a few times for this reason especially the subsequent year to see how it matures and looks.
> 
> Also with some PGR I think it will much closer as well. Just trying to decide seed for next year


@Pete1313 Reno journal is like the bible for KBG mono reno-ers and I'm not just rubbing his ego! He has great information there.

Some people think a mono is a status symbol of sorts. It's difficult I will tell you that. Its not easy..can be dangerous if it catches a major fungus issue...

The benefits outweighs the risks. My grass is all the same. Same color. Blades feel the same. If you are thinking KBG go mono - I know you can do it based on your journal!


----------



## AndyS

@Oregonseed have you seen the Pest and Lawn Ginga YouTube video on the seed production process? It seems like a thorough overview, but are there any smaller steps or nuances that they may have skipped over that you would emphasize?


----------



## Oregonseed

jdm789 said:


> Which seed would you go with for North Carolina? Thanks


Top one! No other crop or weed!!


----------



## Oregonseed

AndyS said:


> @Oregonseed have you seen the Pest and Lawn Ginga YouTube video on the seed production process? It seems like a thorough overview, but are there any smaller steps or nuances that they may have skipped over that you would emphasize?


yeah I saw it, pretty cool. I deal with the family farm they visited (talked with today oddly enough). The video did a fairly good job, of course there are tiny little details missed. Anything in particular?


----------



## AndyS

Oregonseed said:


> AndyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed have you seen the Pest and Lawn Ginga YouTube video on the seed production process? It seems like a thorough overview, but are there any smaller steps or nuances that they may have skipped over that you would emphasize?
> 
> 
> 
> yeah I saw it, pretty cool. I deal with the family farm they visited (talked with today oddly enough). The video did a fairly good job, of course there are tiny little details missed. Anything in particular?
Click to expand...

Not really anything in particular @Oregonseed. I really enjoyed the video. I would've loved a little more coverage of the testing process, but as that's out of their control it makes sense that they didn't spend a lot of time on it.

One point they didn't cover was what happens if the testing comes back with weeds present. Do they retest as standard practice? Do they label and sell the seed at a lower price, or do they bulk resell it to another manufacturer with different standards?

I guess one more point is - in terms of any weed/crop clauses in the farmers contract - at what point is the quality of the product measured to determine adherence to the contract? Is it through the same independent testing, or is it based on separate internal testing?


----------



## Oregonseed

AndyS said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AndyS said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed have you seen the Pest and Lawn Ginga YouTube video on the seed production process? It seems like a thorough overview, but are there any smaller steps or nuances that they may have skipped over that you would emphasize?
> 
> 
> 
> yeah I saw it, pretty cool. I deal with the family farm they visited (talked with today oddly enough). The video did a fairly good job, of course there are tiny little details missed. Anything in particular?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Not really anything in particular @Oregonseed. I really enjoyed the video. I would've loved a little more coverage of the testing process, but as that's out of their control it makes sense that they didn't spend a lot of time on it.
> 
> One point they didn't cover was what happens if the testing comes back with weeds present. Do they retest as standard practice? Do they label and sell the seed at a lower price, or do they bulk resell it to another manufacturer with different standards?
> 
> I guess one more point is - in terms of any weed/crop clauses in the farmers contract - at what point is the quality of the product measured to determine adherence to the contract? Is it through the same independent testing, or is it based on separate internal testing?
Click to expand...

So seed companies (barenbrug in this case) contract with farmers to grow a certain variety. There are other crop and weed percentages allowed in the contract, if it does not meet purity they either reclean, retest, or buy it a lesser price to use for a different market. If a tall fescue field comes back with a bunch of annual ryegrass they cannot clean ryegrass out of fescue so will buy it for cheap and use in contractors mix. In the event company and grower cannot agree on a price the company can release it to the grower and the grower can sell it to anyone as vns.
Testing is either done through private labs or our extension service if certified seed. The cleaning warehouse is just there to clean and process seed.


----------



## AndyS

Oregonseed said:


> In the event company and grower cannot agree on a price the company can release it to the grower and the grower can sell it to anyone as vns.


Thanks so much @Oregonseed - so in the above case the company has supplied the seed and incurred its own costs, but If it can't agree a price with the grower the grower takes the baton and the company makes zero revenue on the grow? Do they get any recompense in the contract?


----------



## Oregonseed

AndyS said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> In the event company and grower cannot agree on a price the company can release it to the grower and the grower can sell it to anyone as vns.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks so much @Oregonseed - so in the above case the company has supplied the seed and incurred its own costs, but If it can't agree a price with the grower the grower takes the baton and the company makes zero revenue on the grow? Do they get any recompense in the contract?
Click to expand...

Yeah pretty much. The xontracting company has very little $ into the crop at that point, the grower has spent all the time and money on it. Most companies have enough seed they dont need to buy junk.
No end users (turf or forage) want to buy junky lots. And if there is noxious weeds in it that starts to dwindle down the states you can legally ship to. A big company like barenbrug might buy it for a cheap cost and then slowly blend it away with millions of pounds of good sees to bring overall cost down.


----------



## Deadlawn

@Oregonseed What would the best cultivars of fescues be for drought and heat tolerance? I have sandy soils that don't hold water very well. My grass does great in fall, winter and spring, but then struggles in warmer weather.

I don't care about whether grass is light or dark green nor whether it has thick or thin blades.

Thanks!


----------



## HoneDiggs

@Oregonseed I did a reno/overseed the end of Aug and had some great results up until 2ish weeks ago when I found my shadier areas of lawn were going back to being just dirt patches. The seed I used was LESCO Sun and Shade Park mix- 34% Turf-Type Perennial Rygrass, 33% Fine Fescues, 33% shamrock KBG.

80% of my front lawn sees sun and the 20% is shaded just about all day.

30% of my back lawn sees sun, 50% is just spotty sun through the leaves of the large oak trees around and then 20% is shaded just about all day.

Should I have gone with 30% Creeping Red Fescue instead of a KBG?
In the areas that are shaded all day, would you put different seed just in those areas?


----------



## Mark102

@Oregonseed I live in Vermont with a somewhat sandy soil. Water retention is definitely an issue. I am planning on doing a reno on my front yard next fall after trying to overseed the existing northern mix the past 5 years. I have a large maple tree that shades half of my 2500 sqft front yard for most of the day. The northern mix does fairly well under the tree but the rest is pretty prone to fungus issues in late summer. I would also like to attempt mowing low. Any thoughts on a good seed to try? I've been thinking a kbg / prg mix. Thanks in advance.


----------



## JerseyGreens

@Oregonseed - Love this thread by the way and the time you take to answer the most complex and basic questions.

On our 2020 cool season lawn thread I'm seeing many getting CRUSHED with Poa A. - many people are using high quality seed too. Is there ever really a seed mix can have no weed seed? Maybe just blue tagged?

KBG seeds are so tiny that I'm going to guess some of this Poa must have come into the seed somehow and not kicked out during the screening process.

Just a hypothesis that I want to sound off here.


----------



## Jay20nj

I believe those poa seeds were already there. In my front where i went heavy with peat i have zero poa a. The peat protected the starter fert with the mesotrione. In my back where i had poa last year and i had washouts there is poa now. The tenacity washed out with the seed. I dont believe high quality seed has poa a for thise reason. Plus the poa is in the same spots. Ill pick as much as i can but i think the only real way (until poa cure is available in a few years) is to hand pull as much as possible. Then let my back go dormant and use a preemergent next year. I will try to use lighter tenacity applications but im not confident that will work out. Seems that washouts equal poa a


----------



## uts

@Oregonseed any way to measure or know the growth rates of KBG to have a blend which grows the same such as BlueNote vs bluebank vs bewitched?


----------



## Oregonseed

Deadlawn said:


> @Oregonseed What would the best cultivars of fescues be for drought and heat tolerance? I have sandy soils that don't hold water very well. My grass does great in fall, winter and spring, but then struggles in warmer weather.
> 
> I don't care about whether grass is light or dark green nor whether it has thick or thin blades.
> 
> Thanks!


Kentucky 31 is a great option if you don't care much about color. Very drought tolerant but not the prettiest, do some research on it


----------



## Oregonseed

JerseyGreens said:


> @Oregonseed - Love this thread by the way and the time you take to answer the most complex and basic questions.
> 
> On our 2020 cool season lawn thread I'm seeing many getting CRUSHED with Poa A. - many people are using high quality seed too. Is there ever really a seed mix can have no weed seed? Maybe just blue tagged?
> 
> KBG seeds are so tiny that I'm going to guess some of this Poa must have come into the seed somehow and not kicked out during the screening process.
> 
> Just a hypothesis that I want to sound off here.


Yeah, testing is not very accurate in our industry. They take a sample thats usually only 50 grams in total from a 55,000lb lot of seed, or 1,100 50lb bags. So as you can imagine the accuracy of such a small sample is not very good. And if something does pop up we can just retest it to get around it  
Best seed you can buy is sod quality that has a larger sample size. But then again nothing is perfect. I have used what i thought was the most perfect seed ever and hand picked bags from fields i knew..still ended up with broadleaves.


----------



## Oregonseed

The amount of lawn specific questions getting to be too many for me. this thread was created to answer questions about the industry, business, practices, and production of grass seed. My knowledge of your lawn in New Jersey and what seed "grows faster" is pretty minimal. I think there are better threads to ask it on...
Thanks!


----------



## JerseyGreens

Oregonseed said:


> JerseyGreens said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed - Love this thread by the way and the time you take to answer the most complex and basic questions.
> 
> On our 2020 cool season lawn thread I'm seeing many getting CRUSHED with Poa A. - many people are using high quality seed too. Is there ever really a seed mix can have no weed seed? Maybe just blue tagged?
> 
> KBG seeds are so tiny that I'm going to guess some of this Poa must have come into the seed somehow and not kicked out during the screening process.
> 
> Just a hypothesis that I want to sound off here.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, testing is not very accurate in our industry. They take a sample thats usually only 50 grams in total from a 55,000lb lot of seed, or 1,100 50lb bags. So as you can imagine the accuracy of such a small sample is not very good. And if something does pop up we can just retest it to get around it
> Best seed you can buy is sod quality that has a larger sample size. But then again nothing is perfect. I have used what i thought was the most perfect seed ever and hand picked bags from fields i knew..still ended up with broadleaves.
Click to expand...

Thank you sir and that's what I was thinking as well. I guess blue tag is worth it then. The biggest issue many of us reno-ers fear is Poa sneaking into the new lawn as it's a major PIA to get rid of after the fact.

It sucked paying SSS what I did for my seed but knock on wood I've been pretty lucky this far with little Poa.


----------



## Deadlawn

Oregonseed said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed What would the best cultivars of fescues be for drought and heat tolerance? I have sandy soils that don't hold water very well. My grass does great in fall, winter and spring, but then struggles in warmer weather.
> 
> I don't care about whether grass is light or dark green nor whether it has thick or thin blades.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Kentucky 31 is a great option if you don't care much about color. Very drought tolerant but not the prettiest, do some research on it
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response! I did try KY-31 last fall. It looked great throughout the winter and spring, but died once summer heat came. Interestingly enough, some has come back to life this fall and is actually a darker green now.


----------



## situman

@Oregonseed

What is the darkest blue/green kbg that you have seen grown on your farm?


----------



## rjjrmiller

Could you elaborate about the seed market and why farmers aren't all getting paid more to grow the most expensive seeds at retail level?

Did you mention yield decreases with higher ntep ranking or something like that? Fascinating has the yield consistently gone lower and lower as breeders continue to create stronger varieties?

Do many seed cultivars sell out for you, or even sell out everywhere? If so do the cultivars expected to sell out (decrease to no supply that year) increase in price drastically? Basically could you elaborate more around the seed market in general and supply and demand? this influence pay for growers and increase price for end use homeowners? Or sl seed price consistent year to year.

Also off topic but do seed growers use any pre emergents at all?

Thank you...this thread has been a real joy to read.


----------



## Oregonseed

rjjrmiller said:


> Could you elaborate about the seed market and why farmers aren't all getting paid more to grow the most expensive seeds at retail level?
> 
> Did you mention yield decreases with higher ntep ranking or something like that? Fascinating has the yield consistently gone lower and lower as breeders continue to create stronger varieties?
> 
> Do many seed cultivars sell out for you, or even sell out everywhere? If so do the cultivars expected to sell out (decrease to no supply that year) increase in price drastically? Basically could you elaborate more around the seed market in general and supply and demand? this influence pay for growers and increase price for end use homeowners? Or sl seed price consistent year to year.
> 
> Also off topic but do seed growers use any pre emergents at all?
> 
> Thank you...this thread has been a real joy to read.


Tall fescue and perennial ryegrass have a bargaining association that sets the price each year for turf grass. variety does not matter to the grower since its all priced the same generally speaking. Growers want the best yielder even if the variety is 15yrs old.

Yield decreases seem to be correlated to NTEP ranking almost. I cannot say for certain but in my postition, the company always wants the newest fanciest variety produced, while the grower wants to keep growing the old one that yields more. Varieties are developed for the end user not the farmer like in a commodity crop such as corn wheat or soy.

The market fluctuates by supply and demand no doubt. Pretty much all varieties carry the same margin for company, if one company runs out of a variety there are many others to fill its spot...they aren't that special now days! The last few years had good demand for tall fescue and supply was low so growers were paid pretty well. As a result, growers planted more fescue which means more supply and market has started to trend down already. expect prices to go down for 2021 crop.
Perennial ryegrass has high demand and low supply now so prices are going up. The two cultivars seem to work in sync with each other, one is high priced and the other is low, growers plant the high priced one and take out the low price one and the pendulum swings back the other way. happens every few years.

growers do use pre emergents, diuron is a big one. most of the chemicals labeled for golf courses and homeowners are not labeled for seed production. Wish i knew why because they work a lot better than what we can use


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Tall fescue and perennial ryegrass have a bargaining association that sets the price each year for turf grass. variety does not matter to the grower since its all priced the same generally speaking. Growers want the best yielder even if the variety is 15yrs old.
> 
> Yield decreases seem to be correlated to NTEP ranking almost. I cannot say for certain but in my postition, the company always wants the newest fanciest variety produced, while the grower wants to keep growing the old one that yields more. Varieties are developed for the end user not the farmer like in a commodity crop such as corn wheat or soy.
> 
> The market fluctuates by supply and demand no doubt. Pretty much all varieties carry the same margin for company, if one company runs out of a variety there are many others to fill its spot...they aren't that special now days! The last few years had good demand for tall fescue and supply was low so growers were paid pretty well. As a result, growers planted more fescue which means more supply and market has started to trend down already. expect prices to go down for 2021 crop.
> Perennial ryegrass has high demand and low supply now so prices are going up. The two cultivars seem to work in sync with each other, one is high priced and the other is low, growers plant the high priced one and take out the low price one and the pendulum swings back the other way. happens every few years.
> 
> growers do use pre emergents, diuron is a big one. most of the chemicals labeled for golf courses and homeowners are not labeled for seed production. Wish i knew why because they work a lot better than what we can use


Very interesting. A couple of things I've experienced that are relevant:

I'm noticing that Tall Fescue is increasing in popularity the last few years in my area. I see it in more and more lawns as time goes on. That's for good reason. It still has some issues, of course, but what species doesn't? Nothing is perfect. I'm also seeing it in a lot of seed mixes in stores. And on here. My gosh, there are a ton of people using it.

I bought an older variety this year. I have an area where turf quality is a low priority. No one sees it, and anyone who does isn't going to care. It's not irrigated. There was no significant price difference between the older and newer varieties. And the older ones are still popular, I guess. I overseeded the area with two Tall Fescue varieties and one Perennial Ryegrass. The older ones still have certain strengths, even if appearance isn't the foremost among them. But if it doesn't matter, there's no point in buying the newer one, which might be a higher maintenance grass. I have areas where I really care how it looks, and also areas where it doesn't matter. I enjoy both equally. I've found that drought tolerance and brown patch performance can often be quite good in the old varieties, but you can't care about blade width, color, or density as much.


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, here's a question for you...

Can you explain the statement on a label:

"Purity determination is based on grow-out test."

That is only listed for one of the three varieties in a Ryegrass blend I used this year. How is that done, and how accurate is it? And why for only one of the three varieties?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, here's a question for you...
> 
> Can you explain the statement on a label:
> 
> "Purity determination is based on grow-out test."
> 
> That is only listed for one of the three varieties in a Ryegrass blend I used this year. How is that done, and how accurate is it? And why for only one of the three varieties?


Grow outs can be a touchy subject for some. I hope I can explain well.
With a grow out they plant all the seeds in a sample and let them grow for up to 6wks. At that time they can get a better idea which plants have true perennial and annual characteristics.
In a standard purity test they just look at the seed itself. While it may look like annual ryegrass, once it's germinated and plant is growing it could have more perennial characteristics.
Generally the scenario for this is growers seed does not meet contract spec for allowable annual ryegrass percentage. So instead of taking a discount on the seed the grower runs a grow out. 9/10 times the grow out lowers the annual percentage enough to meet contract spec.
A lot of companies and end professional markets look down upon grow outs as cheating while growers see it as a tool.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tall fescue and perennial ryegrass have a bargaining association that sets the price each year for turf grass. variety does not matter to the grower since its all priced the same generally speaking. Growers want the best yielder even if the variety is 15yrs old.
> 
> Yield decreases seem to be correlated to NTEP ranking almost. I cannot say for certain but in my postition, the company always wants the newest fanciest variety produced, while the grower wants to keep growing the old one that yields more. Varieties are developed for the end user not the farmer like in a commodity crop such as corn wheat or soy.
> 
> The market fluctuates by supply and demand no doubt. Pretty much all varieties carry the same margin for company, if one company runs out of a variety there are many others to fill its spot...they aren't that special now days! The last few years had good demand for tall fescue and supply was low so growers were paid pretty well. As a result, growers planted more fescue which means more supply and market has started to trend down already. expect prices to go down for 2021 crop.
> Perennial ryegrass has high demand and low supply now so prices are going up. The two cultivars seem to work in sync with each other, one is high priced and the other is low, growers plant the high priced one and take out the low price one and the pendulum swings back the other way. happens every few years.
> 
> growers do use pre emergents, diuron is a big one. most of the chemicals labeled for golf courses and homeowners are not labeled for seed production. Wish i knew why because they work a lot better than what we can use
> 
> 
> 
> Very interesting. A couple of things I've experienced that are relevant:
> 
> I'm noticing that Tall Fescue is increasing in popularity the last few years in my area. I see it in more and more lawns as time goes on. That's for good reason. It still has some issues, of course, but what species doesn't? Nothing is perfect. I'm also seeing it in a lot of seed mixes in stores. And on here. My gosh, there are a ton of people using it.
> 
> I bought an older variety this year. I have an area where turf quality is a low priority. No one sees it, and anyone who does isn't going to care. It's not irrigated. There was no significant price difference between the older and newer varieties. And the older ones are still popular, I guess. I overseeded the area with two Tall Fescue varieties and one Perennial Ryegrass. The older ones still have certain strengths, even if appearance isn't the foremost among them. But if it doesn't matter, there's no point in buying the newer one, which might be a higher maintenance grass. I have areas where I really care how it looks, and also areas where it doesn't matter. I enjoy both equally. I've found that drought tolerance and brown patch performance can often be quite good in the old varieties, but you can't care about blade width, color, or density as much.
Click to expand...

We are seeing large shift in tf usage as well. It is being pushed further north and south replacing a lot of what once were perennial ryegrass sales. Its generally cheaper and easier to maintain in my opinion.


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Grow outs can be a touchy subject for some. I hope I can explain well.
> With a grow out they plant all the seeds in a sample and let them grow for up to 6wks. At that time they can get a better idea which plants have true perennial and annual characteristics.
> In a standard purity test they just look at the seed itself. While it may look like annual ryegrass, once it's germinated and plant is growing it could have more perennial characteristics.
> Generally the scenario for this is growers seed does not meet contract spec for allowable annual ryegrass percentage. So instead of taking a discount on the seed the grower runs a grow out. 9/10 times the grow out lowers the annual percentage enough to meet contract spec.
> A lot of companies and end professional markets look down upon grow outs as cheating while growers see it as a tool.


Interesting. Hmm, I think I view it as neutral after your explanation. Not bad, not good. Just something that is done.

What other species seed is it done for?


----------



## AFBiker2011

Hey everyone ~ 
I have a question regarding Perennial Ryegrass seed. Barenburg sells a 50lb bag of this type but it is (VNS) variety not specified. The skew is TV491164. Has anyone bought this seed and/or have any experience with it?
Thank you


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grow outs can be a touchy subject for some. I hope I can explain well.
> With a grow out they plant all the seeds in a sample and let them grow for up to 6wks. At that time they can get a better idea which plants have true perennial and annual characteristics.
> In a standard purity test they just look at the seed itself. While it may look like annual ryegrass, once it's germinated and plant is growing it could have more perennial characteristics.
> Generally the scenario for this is growers seed does not meet contract spec for allowable annual ryegrass percentage. So instead of taking a discount on the seed the grower runs a grow out. 9/10 times the grow out lowers the annual percentage enough to meet contract spec.
> A lot of companies and end professional markets look down upon grow outs as cheating while growers see it as a tool.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting. Hmm, I think I view it as neutral after your explanation. Not bad, not good. Just something that is done.
> 
> What other species seed is it done for?
Click to expand...

Far as I know just ryegrasses. Intermediate and perennial


----------



## Oregonseed

AFBiker2011 said:


> Hey everyone ~
> I have a question regarding Perennial Ryegrass seed. Barenburg sells a 50lb bag of this type but it is (VNS) variety not specified. The skew is TV491164. Has anyone bought this seed and/or have any experience with it?
> Thank you


Vns stands for variety not stated. Probably a cheap blend of random varieties. Check weed and crop percentages!!


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, I use Rugby II KBG but haven't been able to buy any for a few years now. I'll keep looking to see if they ever grow it again, as it's still a current product.

Anyway, a while back, I saw an old seed tag in a family member's house from seed they had bought in the 1980s, and it had "Rugby" in it.

That made me wonder if numbered or same-name new versions of varieties are actually related to or based on the old variety.

Just the other day, I read something in an article and it said that there is no known connection genetically between Rugby and the current Rugby II.

To me, that's deceptive advertising. If I have monostand or a blend, and a company phases out a variety but comes out with a new version, I trust that the new version is a replacement and will look basically identical.

Is it common practice in the industry to use names that don't reflect breeding relationships between varieties, and to name something "Grass 2" for example even if it's not related to "Grass"?


----------



## Oregonseed

Yes and no. GENERALLY yes, the new version has just a few characteristics changed to it. like seed yield for the grower or disease resistance for the end user.
I have seen where they take a proven and well known name, add a "II" or whatever and create an entirely new variety. Customers are familiar with the name so they buy it.


----------



## KevC

Hello, @Oregonseed was scanning the forum to begin my research on which varieties of Perennial Ryegrass I would like to go with, and saw your offer to answer questions on seeds.

I live in NH zone 5B - and have renovated three of my four lawn areas, with my front yard- showpiece - last up and next on the agenda and would like to go with PRG.

Each of the 3 areas renovated have been pretty successful, first was the Kentucky Bluegrass stand with (Midnight, Bewitched and Blue Note) - patience was difficult with KBG. Next was the backyard which was meant to be lower maintenance and I went with Tall Fescue (Avenger II, Titanium 2 LS, Traverse 2 and Regenerate) and was pleasntly surprised with a few of the varieties that were marketed as lateral spreading, not comparable to a true rhizome or stolon spreading grass but that is to be expected. Finally last year I planted Cardinal II creeping red fescue in a heavily shaded lightly used and recently cleared area off the driveway with hopes of growing knee height with golden seed heads and minimal maintenance.

Now with some of the things I have learned from folks like you and people on this site, I would like to grow a perennial ryegrass front yard and am uncertain which varieties to go with. Think I read that you don't understand why people go with multiple varieties of the same species, but in my experience the color and textures are very similiar and it makes sense to me to add some type of genetic diversity against disease/drought/wear. 
I like the idea of having some lateral spreading capabilities such as Sideways or Barenbrug's RPR, but also would like to balance with cultivars that handle cold winters with reduced winter kill. 
Any advice to get me started on my path or reduce/narrow my NTEP research would be much appreciated, thanks!


----------



## halby

Oregonseed said:


> AFBiker2011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey everyone ~
> I have a question regarding Perennial Ryegrass seed. Barenburg sells a 50lb bag of this type but it is (VNS) variety not specified. The skew is TV491164. Has anyone bought this seed and/or have any experience with it?
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> Vns stands for variety not stated. Probably a cheap blend of random varieties. Check weed and crop percentages!!
Click to expand...

I would not be discouraged by VNS blend. As long as it's weed free it should be just fine. For 99% of homeowners, VNS is not going to matter. I use a VNS PR blend from my local elevator, it's weed free and absolutely awesome.


----------



## AFBiker2011

Thank you!



halby said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AFBiker2011 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey everyone ~
> I have a question regarding Perennial Ryegrass seed. Barenburg sells a 50lb bag of this type but it is (VNS) variety not specified. The skew is TV491164. Has anyone bought this seed and/or have any experience with it?
> Thank you
> 
> 
> 
> Vns stands for variety not stated. Probably a cheap blend of random varieties. Check weed and crop percentages!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would not be discouraged by VNS blend. As long as it's weed free it should be just fine. For 99% of homeowners, VNS is not going to matter. I use a VNS PR blend from my local elevator, it's weed free and absolutely awesome.
Click to expand...


----------



## Green

Hi @Oregonseed, is there a list of all the turfgrass companies somewhere (e.g. DLF Pickseed, SRO, Barenbrug, Jaclin...)? Also, I know some are owned/have been bought out by others.

And likewise a list of the major testing (e.g. NTEP, CTBT) and certification agencies (e.g. AOSCA) for seed and sod?

Lists are helpful because they provide names and are useful for finding info.


----------



## Oregonseed

Ha, funny thing is I know a company that is selling on Monday! Lots of consolidation to retire the older generation.

I have no good lists to answer your question..sorry


----------



## JBMknox

So I would like some advice. I am planning a renovation project on a new lawn. I have done renos before but this one is making me much more nervous. The house is in Knoxville TN (Zone 8). It is a large front yard in an upscale neighborhood. It needs a lot of work. Needs topsoil and some grading and drainage work that I'm currently doing before the fall.

My Struggle is what seed. This yard had 2 large trees in the front yard no low limbs but still has shade. So I need something very shade tolerant that can take the heat. I will have sufficient irrigation. let me know what you think?

thanks in advance


----------



## Oregonseed

This thread sure died!


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> This thread sure died!


Nah, probably just got buried and shaded out temporarily in the growth flush, and people forgot to post their questions for 2 months. Now that the existing grass has been mowed, the new germination is visible.


----------



## JerseyGreens

Oregonseed said:


> This thread sure died!


Probably more busy when people are preparing for renos or overseeding in the Fall (cool season).

I had a question about KBG seedheads. I planted BlueBank seed last year which is an elite, compact variety. I'm not noticing many seedheads whereas most folks here have seedheads all over the place.

Could it be that its a newer variety that may be genetically modified to produce less seedheads? Just a hypothetical question.


----------



## Deadlawn

JerseyGreens said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread sure died!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably more busy when people are preparing for renos or overseeding in the Fall (cool season).
> 
> I had a question about KBG seedheads. I planted BlueBank seed last year which is an elite, compact variety. I'm not noticing many seedheads whereas most folks here have seedheads all over the place.
> 
> Could it be that its a newer variety that may be genetically modified to produce less seedheads? Just a hypothetical question.
Click to expand...

Or possibly it's still getting established? You may not notice seed heats until next year.


----------



## PALawnGuy5

Oregonseed said:


> This thread sure died!


I think it just got lost with other weed or lawn specific questions.

I'm new to the board and just found it for the first time - one of the best threads i've ever read. Some great insight on seeds, highly informative!

I'm currently running tests with several TTTF seeds - a few mono and a few blends from 3 different sellers. I wanted to see germination rates and then how they handle the sun/shade areas and heat before I do a full reno. With all the Triv that popped up in my yard this year, I have no choice but to nuke it or cut out large portions and replace.


----------



## johnklein25

Oregonseed said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.


Hi - quick question about Hydroseeding. It looks like some of my neighbors have had great result on thier lawns with Hydroseeding cool season grass in my neighborhood (some look like ***, some Fescue). Are there only certain seeds that are OK to use with Hydroseeding equipment, or can they use any type of seed the customer specifies? I like the idea of trying some Rhizomatous TTTF in my lawn but not sure if that's an option.


----------



## Oregonseed

JerseyGreens said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> This thread sure died!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably more busy when people are preparing for renos or overseeding in the Fall (cool season).
> 
> I had a question about KBG seedheads. I planted BlueBank seed last year which is an elite, compact variety. I'm not noticing many seedheads whereas most folks here have seedheads all over the place.
> 
> Could it be that its a newer variety that may be genetically modified to produce less seedheads? Just a hypothetical question.
Click to expand...

Not a chance. No grass seed is genetically modified first off. Second off we breed for more seed production always.

Chances are its a later variety or you mow frequently enough seed heads don't show.


----------



## Oregonseed

johnklein25 said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi - quick question about Hydroseeding. It looks like some of my neighbors have had great result on thier lawns with Hydroseeding cool season grass in my neighborhood (some look like ***, some Fescue). Are there only certain seeds that are OK to use with Hydroseeding equipment, or can they use any type of seed the customer specifies? I like the idea of trying some Rhizomatous TTTF in my lawn but not sure if that's an option.
Click to expand...

Yeah they can use anything. They typically supply the seed, which is usually really crappy seed that they make a lot of money on so be careful.


----------



## Deadlawn

Hmmm. This talk about seed heads has be wondering. Why doesn't fescue have seed heads like KBG does? Are the cultivars inbred to be sterile?


----------



## Green

Deadlawn said:


> Hmmm. This talk about seed heads has be wondering. Why doesn't fescue have seed heads like KBG does? Are the cultivars inbred to be sterile?


Not sure what you mean. All Tall and Fine Fescue I've seen seeds readily this time of year generally.

@Oregonseed, speaking of seedheads, can you put to rest the myth for me once and for all that Poa Triv does not seed at or near normal lawn heights? I've seen it happen so many times if I just let it grow a bit to 6+ inches. Though maybe Trinexapac ethyl made the plant more compact. Also, any chance those are viable soon after and can cause the plant to reseed itself? @tgreen was wondering about that.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmmm. This talk about seed heads has be wondering. Why doesn't fescue have seed heads like KBG does? Are the cultivars inbred to be sterile?
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure what you mean. All Tall and Fine Fescue I've seen seeds readily this time of year generally.
> 
> @Oregonseed, speaking of seedheads, can you put to rest the myth for me once and for all that Poa Triv does not seed at or near normal lawn heights? I've seen it happen so many times if I just let it grow a bit to 6+ inches. Though maybe Trinexapac ethyl made the plant more compact. Also, any chance those are viable soon after and can cause the plant to reseed itself? @tgreen was wondering about that.
Click to expand...

Yeah keep it mowed low and you won't see seed heads. Its a perennial grass so will come back yearly and spread more.


----------



## johnklein25

I'm about to buy 50 lbs of Barenbrug Rhizomatous Tall Fescue. The local sales rep said that the grass will germinate and grow just like regular TTF for the first few years, but the Rhizomes/runners really don't get going until around the 3rd year. Any comments on that or Rhizomatous Tall Fescue in general?


----------



## Camman595

@Oregonseed Thanks for starting this post, I have really enjoyed reading it and it has answered a lot of questions that I did not know that I had. 

In another thread, I asked people if they had regrets about going with an all TTTF lawn (because that is what I am planning on doing). I find it very reassuring that someone with your knowledge of grass seed has an only TTTF lawn.


----------



## Old Hickory

johnklein25 said:


> I'm about to buy 50 lbs of Barenbrug Rhizomatous Tall Fescue. The local sales rep said that the grass will germinate and grow just like regular TTF for the first few years, but the Rhizomes/runners really don't get going until around the 3rd year. Any comments on that or Rhizomatous Tall Fescue in general?


Where are you buying this? I'm also interested in blending some of this into my TitanRx.


----------



## Oregonseed

Old Hickory said:


> johnklein25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm about to buy 50 lbs of Barenbrug Rhizomatous Tall Fescue. The local sales rep said that the grass will germinate and grow just like regular TTF for the first few years, but the Rhizomes/runners really don't get going until around the 3rd year. Any comments on that or Rhizomatous Tall Fescue in general?
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you buying this? I'm also interested in blending some of this into my TitanRx.
Click to expand...

Rtf is kind of a marketing thing. It spreads a little but many varieties do. Not a ton of difference really


----------



## sheepfescue

Hello Oregonseed.

I have a question about grass seed storage…

If someone orders uncoated grass seed (any of the northern grasses), how long is the seed good for if it is sitting in a garage with no A/C over the summer?


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, how is this extreme heat impacting the seed production?


----------



## johnklein25

Old Hickory said:


> johnklein25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm about to buy 50 lbs of Barenbrug Rhizomatous Tall Fescue. The local sales rep said that the grass will germinate and grow just like regular TTF for the first few years, but the Rhizomes/runners really don't get going until around the 3rd year. Any comments on that or Rhizomatous Tall Fescue in general?
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you buying this? I'm also interested in blending some of this into my TitanRx.
Click to expand...

My yard is about the same size as yours, but the smallest bag I could get is 50lbs. Here in St. Louis, I lucked out because their rep was OK with selling to home owners. I got the seed for $10 per lb which is less a lower cost per lb than what I bought from seed superstore last fall. I think the same dealer I bought from has an office in Tennesse - even if you're not close to Nashville, they might find a way to get the seeds to you.

https://www.advancedturf.com/connect-with-ats/locations/


----------



## gm560

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, how is this extreme heat impacting the seed production?


This is a great question that should be on everyones mind would is considering a reno in the next 3-9 months.


----------



## Blue1987

Im stuck with trying to find right seeds for my first renovation.
I have a local nursery about 25 mins from my house, GCI TTTF, and United Seeds Super Turf I.

Local Nursery TTTF ALL 0% WEEDS, 0% OTHER CROP. Houndog 8, Fayette , Turfway. 50lb $120
GCI TTTF: 45LB $130
United Seeds Super Turf I TTTF: 50LB. $130 + $50 Shipping = $180.

I'm hearing a lot of good things about GCI and United Seeds, but should I just go to my local place to purchase the seeds ? Do the grass cultivars really matter and they all will look the same once grown?

(I don't mind paying for the Super Turf, I just wanted to know if I can save $50 from the shipping).


----------



## Oregonseed

sheepfescue said:


> Hello Oregonseed.
> 
> I have a question about grass seed storage…
> 
> If someone orders uncoated grass seed (any of the northern grasses), how long is the seed good for if it is sitting in a garage with no A/C over the summer?


Really hard to say. I would use it within a year, after two years might see germ issues


----------



## Oregonseed

gm560 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed, how is this extreme heat impacting the seed production?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great question that should be on everyones mind would is considering a reno in the next 3-9 months.
Click to expand...

Heat really impacting our crop, we were historically dry for a few months already. Expect prices to rise as much as 50%!


----------



## Oregonseed

Blue1987 said:


> Im stuck with trying to find right seeds for my first renovation.
> I have a local nursery about 25 mins from my house, GCI TTTF, and United Seeds Super Turf I.
> 
> Local Nursery TTTF ALL 0% WEEDS, 0% OTHER CROP. Houndog 8, Fayette , Turfway. 50lb $120
> GCI TTTF: 45LB $130
> United Seeds Super Turf I TTTF: 50LB. $130 + $50 Shipping = $180.
> 
> I'm hearing a lot of good things about GCI and United Seeds, but should I just go to my local place to purchase the seeds ? Do the grass cultivars really matter and they all will look the same once grown?
> 
> (I don't mind paying for the Super Turf, I just wanted to know if I can save $50 from the shipping).


Gci has good products, can't comment on the others


----------



## JayBahl

So I've been convinced that I will keep my KBG lawn. Omaha, NE area. Stupid hot/humid as well as bitter cold. Dry and wet weather; we see it all. Heavy clay soil. I have terrible fungus pressure every year and want to mitigate that. Do I HAVE TO start over? Can I scalp, topdress & overseed with a better cultivar? If so, what varitey(ies/blend) would you recommend? I'm growing weary of overthinking this and just want someone to tell me what to do and what seeds to throw. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Amorae

Oregonseed said:


> Old Hickory said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> johnklein25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm about to buy 50 lbs of Barenbrug Rhizomatous Tall Fescue. The local sales rep said that the grass will germinate and grow just like regular TTF for the first few years, but the Rhizomes/runners really don't get going until around the 3rd year. Any comments on that or Rhizomatous Tall Fescue in general?
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you buying this? I'm also interested in blending some of this into my TitanRx.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Rtf is kind of a marketing thing. It spreads a little but many varieties do. Not a ton of difference really
Click to expand...

So we can feel good purchasing other varieties that score high on the NTEP trials and save money at the same time? Also, someone posted a spec sheet from the RTF seed and 50% of it is Yellowjacket coating. Isn't this only 25 lbs of actual seed in a 50 lb bag?


----------



## gm560

Amorae said:


> Also, someone posted a spec sheet from the RTF seed and 50% of it is Yellowjacket coating. Isn't this only 25 lbs of actual seed in a 50 lb bag?


This is the same with coated seeds you see at big box like Scotts and Pennington. Unlike those companies I believe Barenbrug sells their seeds uncoated, too.

https://www.idealturf.com/store

You can see here they have 
50# uncoated for $143
50# coated for $130


----------



## g-man

@Amorae and yes, 50% is newspaper vs 100% seeds. The coating does have a benefit. Some have a fungicide in the coating. But is it worth double the price vs straight seeds? i don't think so.


----------



## Amorae

g-man said:


> @Amorae and yes, 50% is newspaper vs 100% seeds. The coating does have a benefit. Some have a fungicide in the coating. But is it worth double the price vs straight seeds? i don't think so.


@g-man Thanks for sharing your opinion. I appreciate it.


----------



## ksturfguy

Bought a 50 LB bag of MTN View's Winner's Circle TTTF blend. Was $110 which is about $15-20 more than last year. The store I buy seed from said they expect to see a 25% increase this fall and do expect there to be a shortage. Also said they are running low on fertilizer.


----------



## creediddy2021

Can't wait until fall. I am looking to dethatch and aerate in the fall. Need advice on choice of seed. Last two years has been Scott's Thick'R Lawn Sun/Shade Mix. Very impressed with this seed. I prefer to go with a fescue seed. I was considering these as my choices:

1. JG Black Beauty Ultra
2. GCI Turf TTTF 
3. Scott's Thick'R Fescue Mix

What should I go with? Any advice…


----------



## JerseyGreens

Anyone have experience buying seed from Preferred? I'm going back and forth with them via email but they ignore my request to see pictures of tags on their seed. This business revolves around trust - not sure why they wouldn't send me that...but if someone has experience with them it would give me comfort.

Thanks!


----------



## Green

Hi @Oregonseed,

Hope the busy season rush is calming down for you now.

Quick question. This publication: https://seedcert.oregonstate.edu/sites/seedcert.oregonstate.edu/files/publication_2021handbook.pdf

-In it, it appears every variety available is listed. But am I correct that not all the varieties listed in it are current ones?


----------



## kk07

Hi @Oregonseed ,
Just saw this thread and man loads of great answers from you. I have a question also.
Do you have any thoughts on the a-list cultivars (http://a-listturf.org/a-list/) on their claim about the grass being low maintenance with less need for water and fertilizer yet maintain the color and survive the summer heat in the NorthEast?

I am experimenting all a-list 90/10 TTTF/KBG blend from Hogan seed (0% weed and 0% other crops) for my front yard sidewalk reno. The blend has these cultivars: rebounder, titanium 2ls, blue note, legend, and zinfandel. Do you have any personal experience with these cultivars or hogan seed quality in general?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Hi @Oregonseed,
> 
> Hope the busy season rush is calming down for you now.
> 
> Quick question. This publication: https://seedcert.oregonstate.edu/sites/seedcert.oregonstate.edu/files/publication_2021handbook.pdf
> 
> -In it, it appears every variety available is listed. But am I correct that not all the varieties listed in it are current ones?


Wow you did some digging! I use this handbook often with my job.

Yes, many varieties die pretty fast due to yield or other issues down the road. Even the great ones eventually fade out, our industry is constantly developing the l
"Latest and greatest". There is some argument though that fescue and other cultivars can't get much more green...but I digress. 
Some varieties from the 90s are still being produced but not many.


----------



## Oregonseed

kk07 said:


> Hi @Oregonseed ,
> Just saw this thread and man loads of great answers from you. I have a question also.
> Do you have any thoughts on the a-list cultivars (http://a-listturf.org/a-list/) on their claim about the grass being low maintenance with less need for water and fertilizer yet maintain the color and survive the summer heat in the NorthEast?
> 
> I am experimenting all a-list 90/10 TTTF/KBG blend from Hogan seed (0% weed and 0% other crops) for my front yard sidewalk reno. The blend has these cultivars: rebounder, titanium 2ls, blue note, legend, and zinfandel. Do you have any personal experience with these cultivars or hogan seed quality in general?


They are good varieties and I have a lot of faith in Alist, they really are the most drought tolerant. Hogan is fine - they are just a retailer selling good varieties.
We can honestly say this since there are tests they do and the results show. Unlike ntep where everything has to get a "rating". The 4.3 rated variety in ntep is very close in "quality" to the 7.9 if you catch my drift.
Alist is more science based and i hope it grows in popularity.


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi @Oregonseed,
> 
> Hope the busy season rush is calming down for you now.
> 
> Quick question. This publication: https://seedcert.oregonstate.edu/sites/seedcert.oregonstate.edu/files/publication_2021handbook.pdf
> 
> -In it, it appears every variety available is listed. But am I correct that not all the varieties listed in it are current ones?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow you did some digging! I use this handbook often with my job.
> 
> Yes, many varieties die pretty fast due to yield or other issues down the road. Even the great ones eventually fade out, our industry is constantly developing the l
> "Latest and greatest". There is some argument though that fescue and other cultivars can't get much more green...but I digress.
> Some varieties from the 90s are still being produced but not many.
Click to expand...

So, that is more of an overall reference...it's not meant to imply that all of those listed in it are still regularly-grown ("current") varieties?


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi @Oregonseed,
> 
> Hope the busy season rush is calming down for you now.
> 
> Quick question. This publication: https://seedcert.oregonstate.edu/sites/seedcert.oregonstate.edu/files/publication_2021handbook.pdf
> 
> -In it, it appears every variety available is listed. But am I correct that not all the varieties listed in it are current ones?
> 
> 
> 
> Wow you did some digging! I use this handbook often with my job.
> 
> Yes, many varieties die pretty fast due to yield or other issues down the road. Even the great ones eventually fade out, our industry is constantly developing the l
> "Latest and greatest". There is some argument though that fescue and other cultivars can't get much more green...but I digress.
> Some varieties from the 90s are still being produced but not many.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, that is more of an overall reference...it's not meant to imply that all of those listed in it are still regularly-grown ("current") varieties?
Click to expand...

Correct. They were grown at one point, or still are. I would say probably 25% of them are no longer produced for tall fescue and perennial ryegrass.


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Correct. They were grown at one point, or still are. I would say probably 25% of them are no longer produced for tall fescue and perennial ryegrass.


Is there a good way to find out if a variety is still current? I've wanted to know on several occasions.


----------



## Green

Got another question...

Looking at the breeder/plant variety protection registration info for Rowdy TTTF (which I use in slightly shady areas), I read this:

"SRX TPC tall fescue (Festuca arundinacea Schreb.) is a medium low-growing, dark green, 
medium-fine-leaved, turf-type tall fescue selected from the maternal progenies of 48 plants. SRX TPC was 
selected for medium-high shoot density, coarse leaf texture, dark-green color, semi-dwarf upright growth habit, and medium-late maturity."

Source: https://apps.ams.usda.gov/cms/adobeimages/201500312.pdf

It mentions medium-fine leaves, but then goes one to list coarse leaf texture in the same sentence. These appear at odds with each other. I thought texture referred to blade width for grasses...no? Can a plant be medium-fine leaved and have a coarse texture at the same time? If so, what is this texture referring to exactly?

Thanks.


----------



## MattR

What is the cleaning process between harvest / processing? And is the info on the tag indicative of the harvested seed or processed and bagged seed?


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, does coated seed last longer in storage?


----------



## Oregonseed

MattR said:


> What is the cleaning process between harvest / processing? And is the info on the tag indicative of the harvested seed or processed and bagged seed?


The bulk seed harvested from the field is ran through a series of screens, blowers, etc to remove weed seeds, blank seed, and straw/soil. Grass seed is really dirty and has a lot of junk directly out of the field so it cleaning is necessary for 98 purity. Typically can clean 2-3k pounds per hour.
Testing occurs once the seed has been cleaned and bagged.


----------



## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, does coated seed last longer in storage?


Thats genuinely something I have never thought about..I have to find out now.


----------



## sheepfescue

Hello. I have a question regarding premium northern mix grass seed blends which--after planting and germination--come up a disgusting "Mountain Dew" green color (literally; the color of the popular soft drink).

*After writing the below I realized I got carried away with questions. I'm primarily interested in answers to 1 and 2.

My specific questions:

1. Much like with an animal during development, if there is not proper nutrition & environment, development of the whole organism can be irreversibly messed up. Is a grass plant the same way with development? (I.e. if the first weeks of life have something wrong with it, is the grass plant permanently messed up?).

2. How much "funny business" goes on in the industry, such as premium seed outlets leaving some stated cultivars out of the bag, changing % of cultivars to save money, putting in totally different cultivars, etc? I recently got a bag of a premium seed retailer (boutique) mix, with ~60% KBG... I looked at a sample under a magnifying glass and--while I'm not an expert--did not see any seeds that could possibly be a KBG seed (I have straight KBG blends, and the seed is tiny). (I'm aware many seed outlets state clearly on their website that the varieties are subject to change... but some most certainly do not).

2b. Given the very unusual and dramatic supply chain, inflation, and commodity pricing issues of the last year, how--and to what extent--does this fit in to potential "funny business" in grass seed?

3. Is there any genetic drift, over time, in named cultivars? (for misc reasons including pollination & very complex progeny situations, natural selection processes, etc?

4. Almost any "big-box" superstore seed is coated with material which most usually contains mefenoxam to mitigate pythium blight during seeding and establishment. With question #1 in mind, is this coating (and especially the presence of the fungicide) important, and--if so--how important? Could it help someone having a difficult time with seeding to have better success?

4b. To that end, even though they are detested here, would someone with limited skills/patience/resources/time do better with superstore seed because of the seed coatings?

5. Regarding "big-box" superstore seed... I always wonder about several concepts, including:

-These are large, publicly-traded companies (well, SMG at least). While SMG has a pseudo-monopoly in the space, I mean the can't outright have horrible products that never work because over time that would mess up sales and reputation.

-Usually larger companies have the best resources (talent, research and development, expertise, infrastructure, supply chains, access, supply-end pricing power, etc)... It's kinda like cars... (price and prestige aside) who is going to be able to make a better automobile--a major car company, or a small garage shop?


----------



## Deadlawn

sheepfescue said:


> Hello. I have a question regarding premium northern mix grass seed blends which--after planting and germination--come up a disgusting "Mountain Dew" green color (literally; the color of the popular soft drink).


New baby grass plants will always be lighter in color. Give it a year in the ground and it should darken.


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed, does coated seed last longer in storage?
> 
> 
> 
> Thats genuinely something I have never thought about..I have to find out now.
Click to expand...

I used some that was likely 2016 crop last month, and it seems to work still. (I've never gotten regular TTTF seed to germinate after 5 years.)


----------



## Oregonseed

sheepfescue said:


> Hello. I have a question regarding premium northern mix grass seed blends which--after planting and germination--come up a disgusting "Mountain Dew" green color (literally; the color of the popular soft drink).
> 
> *After writing the below I realized I got carried away with questions. I'm primarily interested in answers to 1 and 2.
> 
> My specific questions:
> 
> 1. Much like with an animal during development, if there is not proper nutrition & environment, development of the whole organism can be irreversibly messed up. Is a grass plant the same way with development? (I.e. if the first weeks of life have something wrong with it, is the grass plant permanently messed up?).
> 
> 2. How much "funny business" goes on in the industry, such as premium seed outlets leaving some stated cultivars out of the bag, changing % of cultivars to save money, putting in totally different cultivars, etc? I recently got a bag of a premium seed retailer (boutique) mix, with ~60% KBG... I looked at a sample under a magnifying glass and--while I'm not an expert--did not see any seeds that could possibly be a KBG seed (I have straight KBG blends, and the seed is tiny). (I'm aware many seed outlets state clearly on their website that the varieties are subject to change... but some most certainly do not).
> 
> 2b. Given the very unusual and dramatic supply chain, inflation, and commodity pricing issues of the last year, how--and to what extent--does this fit in to potential "funny business" in grass seed?
> 
> 3. Is there any genetic drift, over time, in named cultivars? (for misc reasons including pollination & very complex progeny situations, natural selection processes, etc?
> 
> 4. Almost any "big-box" superstore seed is coated with material which most usually contains mefenoxam to mitigate pythium blight during seeding and establishment. With question #1 in mind, is this coating (and especially the presence of the fungicide) important, and--if so--how important? Could it help someone having a difficult time with seeding to have better success?
> 
> 4b. To that end, even though they are detested here, would someone with limited skills/patience/resources/time do better with superstore seed because of the seed coatings?
> 
> 5. Regarding "big-box" superstore seed... I always wonder about several concepts, including:
> 
> -These are large, publicly-traded companies (well, SMG at least). While SMG has a pseudo-monopoly in the space, I mean the can't outright have horrible products that never work because over time that would mess up sales and reputation.
> 
> -Usually larger companies have the best resources (talent, research and development, expertise, infrastructure, supply chains, access, supply-end pricing power, etc)... It's kinda like cars... (price and prestige aside) who is going to be able to make a better automobile--a major car company, or a small garage shop?


1: grass pretty much either survives or dies, right?. It may be lacking something but most won't be able to notice..it may not have been born with missing legs but root development could be cut in half due to compaction or something along those lines.

2: there are tricks that still happen to this day. Any misrepresentation of seed is is illegal, but very hard to prove. I dont think its all that common. In the last few years some individuals were buying turf type fescue from growers and then selling it as k31 since the market for k31 was much higher. Most consumers don't know the difference and the only way to prove it was going back through thousands of documents to trace the original source. They received six figure fines.
I think one thing that is overlooked is branding. There might be a brand called "super green" for example that people love. But since its just a brand any variety can fill that brand. This is pretty common and perfectly legal.. The variety can change many times over a given season even.

2b: with high prices and limited supply, there are not really tricks being played right now. The funny games happen when time's are desperate.

Buy reputable products from reputable companies. Boy, i need a drink after this one 😁


----------



## Deadlawn

Oregonseed said:


> 1: grass pretty much either survives or dies, right?. It may be lacking something but most won't be able to notice..it may not have been born with missing legs but root development could be cut in half due to compaction or something along those lines.
> 
> 2: there are tricks that still happen to this day. Any misrepresentation of seed is is illegal, but very hard to prove. I dont think its all that common. In the last few years some individuals were buying turf type fescue from growers and then selling it as k31 since the market for k31 was much higher. Most consumers don't know the difference and the only way to prove it was going back through thousands of documents to trace the original source. They received six figure fines.
> I think one thing that is overlooked is branding. There might be a brand called "super green" for example that people love. But since its just a brand any variety can fill that brand. This is pretty common and perfectly legal.. The variety can change many times over a given season even.
> 
> 2b: with high prices and limited supply, there are not really tricks being played right now. The funny games happen when time's are desperate.
> 
> Buy reputable products from reputable companies. Boy, i need a drink after this one 😁


Yikes! Six figure fines are pocket change for these companies. Bottom line is to read the analysis on the back of the bag regardless of the pretty labeling on the front.

Prep is everything. I did an experiment in late August where I tilled a section down to 12 inches before seeding, while another section I didn't. I top dressed both areas with 2-3 inches of compost. Dang, the area that was tilled jumped out of the ground while the untilled area took way longer to develop! It will be interesting to see how these two areas differ in survival after next summer.


----------



## VALawnNoob

Deadlawn said:


> Prep is everything. I did an experiment in late August where I tilled a section down to 12 inches before seeding, while another section I didn't. I top dressed both areas with 2-3 inches of compost. Dang, the area that was tilled jumped out of the ground while the untilled area took way longer to develop! It will be interesting to see how these two areas differ in survival after next summer.


What about the comparison of the two area now that the grass has matured for a couple of months? Do you still see a visual difference between tilled area vs untilled? Would love to see a picture of the comparison and also again in spring if at all possible.


----------



## Deadlawn

VALawnNoob said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Prep is everything. I did an experiment in late August where I tilled a section down to 12 inches before seeding, while another section I didn't. I top dressed both areas with 2-3 inches of compost. Dang, the area that was tilled jumped out of the ground while the untilled area took way longer to develop! It will be interesting to see how these two areas differ in survival after next summer.
> 
> 
> 
> What about the comparison of the two area now that the grass has matured for a couple of months? Do you still see a visual difference between tilled area vs untilled? Would love to see a picture of the comparison and also again in spring if at all possible.
Click to expand...

At this point you can hardly tell a difference. Though my guess is that the tilled area started up a lot faster because it was able to send roots deeper. My thinking is overall deeper roots will help the grass survive brutal summer heat better. It will be interesting to see what differences there are come next August.


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed,

Does a lot number that is slightly higher than a previous batch a year later always indicate newer seed?


----------



## MacLawn

Oregonseed said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I am new to the forum but not new to grass seed. I live in Oregon where many of your cool season grass seeds are grown, I contract certain varieties with growers and oversee millions of pounds. If you have any questions I want to answer them. Seems there is not much education on the back bone of seed production systems. I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong. I want educate as many as possible so you can be more informed.
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.


I just picked up a bag of JG BB Original I was glad to see a recent test date on the label but not so glad to see a VNS on the third variety listed.
Im just fearful I will end up with something resembling K31 ? 
What is this and should I be worried?


----------



## 01Bullitt

VNS means variety not stated so there is no telling what it is. They were not sure what it was & the reason it's listed as VNS. Also the weed & other crop seed are quite high. If it were me I would probably take it back if you could & find something better. @MacLawn Just curious, how much was that 25lb bag of seed?


----------



## MacLawn

01Bullitt said:


> VNS means variety not stated so there is no telling what it is. They were not sure what it was & the reason it's listed as VNS. Also the weed & other crop seed are quite high. If it were me I would probably take it back if you could & find something better. @MacLawn Just curious, how much was that 25lb bag of seed?


$79/25# I was considering not over seeding at all this year do to cost so I ordered this on local ACE Hardware Website.


----------



## 01Bullitt

@MacLawn If you're able and decide to take it back, Twin City seed has free shipping & 10% off with coupon codes. This blend looks good and is $120 for 25lbs before the coupon. https://twincityseed.com/product/tuff-turf-lawn-seed-mixture/. The blend I use here in NC has raindance & saltillo and has been great, plus they made the 2017 NC State's recommend list. https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/2017-top-performing-tall-fescue-kentucky-bluegrass-and-fine-fescue-cultivars.


----------



## Green

@Oregonseed, hope your busy season is over soon.

I used to assume weed seed was worse than other crop. But it seems like in many cases (and I've read, too) that if you have to pick seed with 0 crop versus 0 weed but a small amount of the other, the weed seed might be less bad as long as it's not noxious, because the other crop can be Triv, Bent, etc. And the weed might be more likely to be an annual or a broadleaf perennial that can be controlled. Do you agree? Or are weed and crop basically interchangeable and equally bad?


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

@Oregonseed Curious about your thoughts on how accurate labels really are.
I was at a Wilco and looked at their Mt View Seed blend that had obviously been retested with a second sticker.

Their 100% Perennial rye had a sticker on it for their 100% TTTF blend, obviously not correct but did also make me realize that all the labels we sometimes live and die by on this forum can very easily be screwed up by human error.


----------



## Green

FuzzeWuzze said:


> @Oregonseed Curious about your thoughts on how accurate labels really are.
> I was at a Wilco and looked at their Mt View Seed blend that had obviously been retested with a second sticker.
> 
> Their 100% Perennial rye had a sticker on it for their 100% TTTF blend, obviously not correct but did also make me realize that all the labels we sometimes live and die by on this forum can very easily be screwed up by human error.


[mention]Oregonseed[/mentioreg
Tagging along on the above, check out this post:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=534891#p534891
Whole thread needed for context.


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## Green

FuzzeWuzze said:


> @Oregonseed Curious about your thoughts on how accurate labels really are.
> I was at a Wilco and looked at their Mt View Seed blend that had obviously been retested with a second sticker.
> 
> Their 100% Perennial rye had a sticker on it for their 100% TTTF blend, obviously not correct but did also make me realize that all the labels we sometimes live and die by on this forum can very easily be screwed up by human error.


@Oregonseed
Tagging along on the above, check out this post:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=534891#p534891
Whole thread needed for context. But an unbelievable unstated other crop petcentage...30%.


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## MacLawn

01Bullitt said:


> @MacLawn If you're able and decide to take it back, Twin City seed has free shipping & 10% off with coupon codes. This blend looks good and is $120 for 25lbs before the coupon. https://twincityseed.com/product/tuff-turf-lawn-seed-mixture/. The blend I use here in NC has raindance & saltillo and has been great, plus they made the 2017 NC State's recommend list. https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/2017-top-performing-tall-fescue-kentucky-bluegrass-and-fine-fescue-cultivars.


My lawn is such a mess with various grass typed I will take my chances with the JG BB for now. Theres zero chance I will ever do a full reno. 
Thank you for the tips
Oh Johnathan Green responded to my VNS and they said they had to source seed from competitors this season and they can not list the seed? I guess if seed varieties are trademarked this makes sense.


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## Oregonseed

MacLawn said:


> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I am new to the forum but not new to grass seed. I live in Oregon where many of your cool season grass seeds are grown, I contract certain varieties with growers and oversee millions of pounds. If you have any questions I want to answer them. Seems there is not much education on the back bone of seed production systems. I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong. I want educate as many as possible so you can be more informed.
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just picked up a bag of JG BB Original I was glad to see a recent test date on the label but not so glad to see a VNS on the third variety listed.
> Im just fearful I will end up with something resembling K31 ?
> What is this and should I be worried?
Click to expand...

Variety not stated, no telling what it is.
I would be more concerned with the other crop - that's what will look ugly!


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, hope your busy season is over soon.
> 
> I used to assume weed seed was worse than other crop. But it seems like in many cases (and I've read, too) that if you have to pick seed with 0 crop versus 0 weed but a small amount of the other, the weed seed might be less bad as long as it's not noxious, because the other crop can be Triv, Bent, etc. And the weed might be more likely to be an annual or a broadleaf perennial that can be controlled. Do you agree? Or are weed and crop basically interchangeable and equally bad?


Correct.
Other crop is all the other types of grass seed and things that will stick out like a sore thumb.
Other weed is just weeds, mainly broadleaf. Easy to identify and treat.
There is so much 0/0 seed available I don't know why people buy anything else other than lack of knowledge or in a rush


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## Oregonseed

FuzzeWuzze said:


> @Oregonseed Curious about your thoughts on how accurate labels really are.
> I was at a Wilco and looked at their Mt View Seed blend that had obviously been retested with a second sticker.
> 
> Their 100% Perennial rye had a sticker on it for their 100% TTTF blend, obviously not correct but did also make me realize that all the labels we sometimes live and die by on this forum can very easily be screwed up by human error.


Maybe there's more to the story, maybe it was originally tagged wrong? 
Nothing is absolute in the world and as I've mentioned before sampling and testing isn't perfect. You can get different results everytime..with that said buy from companies you can trust as they are typically doing the best they possibly can. 99% of the time I would say labels are as accurate as they can be, human error happens. There is also stiff fines and legal consequences for intentionally mislabeling!


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed Curious about your thoughts on how accurate labels really are.
> I was at a Wilco and looked at their Mt View Seed blend that had obviously been retested with a second sticker.
> 
> Their 100% Perennial rye had a sticker on it for their 100% TTTF blend, obviously not correct but did also make me realize that all the labels we sometimes live and die by on this forum can very easily be screwed up by human error.
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed
> Tagging along on the above, check out this post:
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=534891#p534891
> Whole thread needed for context. But an unbelievable unstated other crop petcentage...30%.
Click to expand...

Wow that's unreal! Seems intentional to me. Could have been just a few lot numbers though not the whole entire brand sold for several years. Hard to justify OP complaint from a data table found online (how old is it?)


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## Oregonseed

And yes - our busy season is starting to slow down. On vacation this weekend!
We were Blending and shipping out up to a million pounds of seed per day for a few eeks!!
As a production person we are now preparing to get our new fields planted this fall for harvest next year


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## MacLawn

Oregonseed said:


> MacLawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oregonseed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hello all,
> 
> I am new to the forum but not new to grass seed. I live in Oregon where many of your cool season grass seeds are grown, I contract certain varieties with growers and oversee millions of pounds. If you have any questions I want to answer them. Seems there is not much education on the back bone of seed production systems. I have read many posts where somebody seems to have an answer, and since nobody else has a clue it gets passed along as the right answer. But can be completely wrong. I want educate as many as possible so you can be more informed.
> 
> Ask away! Here is a turf type tall fescue field grown for seed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just picked up a bag of JG BB Original I was glad to see a recent test date on the label but not so glad to see a VNS on the third variety listed.
> Im just fearful I will end up with something resembling K31 ?
> What is this and should I be worried?
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Variety not stated, no telling what it is.
> I would be more concerned with the other crop - that's what will look ugly!
Click to expand...

My lawn has so much in it I most likely will not notice anything else.
I had a batch of loam/compost brought in about 5 years ago and completely infected my lawn with all sorts of weeds and "crop" seeds
I have been fighting dalasgrass, barnyard grass and a host of others.

Sadly I took the inexpensive route as my "lawn budget" was nearing its end.
Maybe someday I will nuke my entire lawn and start over, unlikely


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## MacLawn

Oregonseed said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed, hope your busy season is over soon.
> 
> I used to assume weed seed was worse than other crop. But it seems like in many cases (and I've read, too) that if you have to pick seed with 0 crop versus 0 weed but a small amount of the other, the weed seed might be less bad as long as it's not noxious, because the other crop can be Triv, Bent, etc. And the weed might be more likely to be an annual or a broadleaf perennial that can be controlled. Do you agree? Or are weed and crop basically interchangeable and equally bad?
> 
> 
> 
> Correct.
> Other crop is all the other types of grass seed and things that will stick out like a sore thumb.
> Other weed is just weeds, mainly broadleaf. Easy to identify and treat.
> There is so much 0/0 seed available I don't know why people buy anything else other than lack of knowledge or in a rush
Click to expand...

 I will agree lack of knowledge is one.
First 12 years or so living here I tossed down what ever was on sale here at HD/lowes only god knows what I actually put down. Still learning .
Also time and budget not exactly on my side either.
Maybe next over seeding prices and availability will be better.


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## FailedLawn

@MacLawn

It's ALWAYS cheaper to do things right the first time. It will save time and money.

Most homeowners know little about buying grass seed and their lack of knowledge can lead them into a money trap. Those same stores selling the seeds also make money selling chemicals to "fix" problems in a lawn.

I can't tell you how much time and money I have spent trying to "fix" my lawn over the past 12 years. A healthy quality lawn is often easier and cheaper to maintain…until you get into the "lawn geek" world. Enthusiast can spend some significant money for their top tier lawns.

Lack of knowledge will no longer be an issue for you. There's a wealth of information available to you, now that you know it exist. Best of luck on your progress!


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## Green

@Oregonseed, very interesting.

I bought a specific fine fescue seed, which tested as having 0 other crop, but a small amount, .07 I think, weed. I've read that in some cases, weed in FF is Poa annua, but am hoping it's not that and is just easy stuff to deal with. I felt ok with it.

Yeah, that guy referenced above noticed the Ryegrass in his lawn after using the TTTF seed a few years before, and didn't know what it was. He posted and we helped him ID it. Then he went online and found out his seed had 30% Ryegrass, unknown to him at the purchase.

All of this reminds me of a couple questions regarding certification:

1. What are typical reasons seed that tests as 0/0 might not be blue tag? Just not worth it or they didn't bother to pay to go through the process? Fields didn't pass muster? Etc.???

2. Any real-world issue with non-certified seed actually being a different variety than listed on the tag? Or is it still unlikely? Any other issues with uncertified seed?

3. How do you know whether mass production seed with name brands sold in stores contains blue tag seed or not? Do companies like Scotts and Pennington typically use either or? Or only blue tag?

4. What in the world is experimental seed? E.g. seed that has an experimental certification with a white certification tag?

And finally, any idea what type of clear plastic bags are best for seed storage? Seed sellers sometimes use these for smaller quantities and heat seal them, and I've found the seed keeps longer in them than in the normal woven bags if you squeeze all the air out and tape them shut after opening. I want to get some of these bags. They're way better than ziplock. Guessing some sort of food grade polypropylene?


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## simplesimon

What is the purpose of of annual ryegrass? I was at a discount store the other day to use up a gift card to buy some fertilizer and they had an entire shelf of 3lb bags of "Premium Grade Seed Mixture: Sun & Shade" for $8.99 and it was mostly annual ryegrass.


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## MacLawn

FailedLawn said:


> @MacLawn
> 
> It's ALWAYS cheaper to do things right the first time. It will save time and money.
> 
> Most homeowners know little about buying grass seed and their lack of knowledge can lead them into a money trap. Those same stores selling the seeds also make money selling chemicals to "fix" problems in a lawn.
> 
> I can't tell you how much time and money I have spent trying to "fix" my lawn over the past 12 years. A healthy quality lawn is often easier and cheaper to maintain…until you get into the "lawn geek" world. Enthusiast can spend some significant money for their top tier lawns.
> 
> Lack of knowledge will no longer be an issue for you. There's a wealth of information available to you, now that you know it exist. Best of luck on your progress!


I have learned a lot here in a short time and all the tips/help have lead to a nice lawn. Tier 3.0+ no
Im teetering at 1.5 but looks more like 2.2 to me 
The bad days of the past


Even with drought and fungus present day


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## Oregonseed

simplesimon said:


> What is the purpose of of annual ryegrass? I was at a discount store the other day to use up a gift card to buy some fertilizer and they had an entire shelf of 3lb bags of "Premium Grade Seed Mixture: Sun & Shade" for $8.99 and it was mostly annual ryegrass.


It's cheap, germinates fast, and is really green. The average homeowner loves it then buys more year 2 since it all died!!


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed, very interesting.
> 
> I bought a specific fine fescue seed, which tested as having 0 other crop, but a small amount, .07 I think, weed. I've read that in some cases, weed in FF is Poa annua, but am hoping it's not that and is just easy stuff to deal with. I felt ok with it.
> 
> Yeah, that guy referenced above noticed the Ryegrass in his lawn after using the TTTF seed a few years before, and didn't know what it was. He posted and we helped him ID it. Then he went online and found out his seed had 30% Ryegrass, unknown to him at the purchase.
> 
> All of this reminds me of a couple questions regarding certification:
> 
> 1. What are typical reasons seed that tests as 0/0 might not be blue tag? Just not worth it or they didn't bother to pay to go through the process? Fields didn't pass muster? Etc.???
> 
> 2. Any real-world issue with non-certified seed actually being a different variety than listed on the tag? Or is it still unlikely? Any other issues with uncertified seed?
> 
> 3. How do you know whether mass production seed with name brands sold in stores contains blue tag seed or not? Do companies like Scotts and Pennington typically use either or? Or only blue tag?
> 
> 4. What in the world is experimental seed? E.g. seed that has an experimental certification with a white certification tag?
> 
> And finally, any idea what type of clear plastic bags are best for seed storage? Seed sellers sometimes use these for smaller quantities and heat seal them, and I've found the seed keeps longer in them than in the normal woven bags if you squeeze all the air out and tape them shut after opening. I want to get some of these bags. They're way better than ziplock. Guessing some sort of food grade polypropylene?


Wow green, no shortage of questions!

1. Field did enter certification process or was denied.

2. Unlikely, but still happens and I would say is more likely to happen.

3. They typically don't use blue tag. I know scotts for a fact dosent use blue tag seed, buyers at home depot have no clue so it dosent matter. Scotts pays the grower less for the seed, Ultimately higher margin.

4. Experimental seed is the first step. There is experimental, foundation, registered, and certified. The public generally won't be able to buy the first three. These are used to to initiate and produce a variety to certified which is ultimately what is bought.

Don't think it matters too much, the environment is more important. Cold and cool vs light and warm. We keep top secret seed in the freezer for years! 😉


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## Grassobession

Is there any info on Sunfire tttf


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## Oregonseed

Grassobession said:


> Is there any info on Sunfire tttf


Not that I can find. More info would be helpful ...


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## Green

@Oregonseed 

Not a question, but a suggestion if you could be so kind as to pass it on. 

It would be great if the industry would harvest and sell straw from KBG, Fescue, and Ryegrass seed fields. It would essentially put an end to issues of other crop seed in straw sold and used for seeding cool season lawn mixtures. Also gives farmers more income in some cases.


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> @Oregonseed
> 
> Not a question, but a suggestion if you could be so kind as to pass it on.
> 
> It would be great if the industry would harvest and sell straw from KBG, Fescue, and Ryegrass seed fields. It would essentially put an end to issues of other crop seed in straw sold and used for seeding cool season lawn mixtures. Also gives farmers more income in some cases.


We are leaps ahead of that. All of the straw leftover from harvest after seed is removed, gets compressed and shipped overseas. Over a billion pounds of straw according to my quick math..its a huge industry!
Worth youtubing if your interested.


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## Green

Oregonseed said:


> We are leaps ahead of that. All of the straw leftover from harvest after seed is removed, gets compressed and shipped overseas. Over a billion pounds of straw according to my quick math..its a huge industry!
> Worth youtubing if your interested.


Thanks for the reply, and hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.

That's an awful lot of straw!! Just thinking. Why can't we have a little of it in this country? Lol. Charge a premium for it over other non-turf straw, and keep some for the domestic market! I think people like those on this site would purchase it. I pulled about 2,000 Timothy grass plants out by hand from using "Mainly Mulch". No joke.

So, other countries are getting the premium product derived from elite turfgrass varieties, and we're getting the stuff from forage grass...why? Please save us some of the good stuff, lol!

Can anyone else here second me on this?


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## Oregonseed

Green said:


> Thanks for the reply, and hope you had a nice Thanksgiving.
> 
> That's an awful lot of straw!! Just thinking. Why can't we have a little of it in this country? Lol. Charge a premium for it over other non-turf straw, and keep some for the domestic market! I think people like those on this site would purchase it. I pulled about 2,000 Timothy grass plants out by hand from using "Mainly Mulch". No joke.
> 
> So, other countries are getting the premium product derived from elite turfgrass varieties, and we're getting the stuff from forage grass...why? Please save us some of the good stuff, lol!
> 
> Can anyone else here second me on this?


Yeah I have thought about it many times. We get about 2.5 ton worth of straw per acre. How much would your local landscape store use in a year? I think its such a small market wouldn't make any sense. It's just easier to export it.
They use it for bedding and a filler in dairy cow feed. 
I've never used straw in a yard reno but it would definitely go get a 1200lb fescue bale from a farmer here! 
Wheat straw is fine to use as it dies out eventually. But Timothy, ryegrass,orchardgrass, etc...I would NEVER use!


----------



## Green

Oregonseed said:


> Yeah I have thought about it many times. We get about 2.5 ton worth of straw per acre. How much would your local landscape store use in a year? I think its such a small market wouldn't make any sense. It's just easier to export it.
> They use it for bedding and a filler in dairy cow feed.
> I've never used straw in a yard reno but it would definitely go get a 1200lb fescue bale from a farmer here!
> Wheat straw is fine to use as it dies out eventually. But Timothy, ryegrass,orchardgrass, etc...I would NEVER use!


I think a lot of people would agree with us and would use it, too! Landscape supply places go through pallets of straw easily. In my area, it would definitely get bought and used. Tell you what, I'm going to start a thread on this topic and we'll see how much of a market there is among members here.

Peat is good, and is what I use now, but also has its issues (dusty, not a renewable resource on any normal timescale, can do funny stuff to soil, etc.).

I just drove by a house that was seeded this week due to utility work digging up the yard or something. Topdressed with straw...Of course, you hope the seed stays put until Spring in that yard. Yup, they use tons of straw around here. It's the default topdressing for non-hydro-seeded projects from my observations. Stores always have a pallet of forage grass-derived straw during seeding seasons, and people buy it...both DIYers and pros (supposedly weed free but tons of other crop, a.k.a "other [email protected]").

If I get a chance I can also ask local landscapers if they would be interested in Turf Type Tall Fescue, Turf type Perennial Ryegrass, or KY Bluegrass straw.

I would think you'd find a fairly big domestic market for it, though...possibly biased toward the Northeast/Mid Atlantic and Midwest.

Companies could make $$ by chopping it up into straw mulch, too...like they do with the existing forage stuff, and sell for lawn seeding use. I would think only those doing monostands or that type of thing where you can't tolerate any additional varieties would want want to avoid elite turf-based straw. People seeding mixes, even high-end users probably would not care about few seeds of other turf varieties getting into their lawn so much.

Tall Fescue (not KY-31 of course) straw would probably be the "safest" bet, don't you think? Less chance of Poa than KBG. And PR straw might have too much annual rye seed in it.


----------

