# Jeff_MI84's Backyard Reno 2022



## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I'm kicking off this reno journal for the backyard. This is going to be my third reno, but only the first big one (2,756sqft). The seed I chose is the SS1100 Bluegrass Blend of Bluebank, Midnight and Mazama. I purchased it back in April to play it safe.

I have leftover peat moss from last year, with a brand new peat moss spreader, my lawn roller, Tenacity, leveling rake and large landscape rake. All I need to purchase is some starter fertilizer for P.

This weekend will be round one of Glypho. As far as I can tell, since the sod is just less than two years old, the soil is still level for the most part. The irrigation lines and the back right, along with a few edges are the only areas that will require more work.

Hopefully in the very near future I will be purchasing a used reel mower from another member, with the intention of cutting at 1", along with 2-2.5" collars.

I have three weeks off of work thanks to the summer shutdown at the plant. Hopefully I'll have enough Mountain Dew and Black & Milds on hand to get me thru it.

This past weekend I mowed at 3", for the last mow. My neighbors, mom and coworkers think I'm crazy for killing the sod for something better, but I need a mentally stimulating challenge.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Best of luck! Should be a nice blend of quality cultivars. Will be following along as I will be renoless for the first time since 2019.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko thank you! I wanted to do a monostand of Mazama, but back in April, Seed Super Store didn't have an availability date and I figured three different varieties would be good. Now you can sit back, enjoy the summer and follow along as others do the hard work.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Good luck! I think you're going to like those cultivars.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI the pictures I've seen probably don't do it justice compared to how it'll look.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

What's the reason for the reno?

Just wanted a single type of grass, kbg?

I'm actually in the process of a monostand reno of Mazama. So far so good &#129310;.

Love the idea of the lights with your Hosta's. Looks good!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Justmatson what I currently have is a mix of KBG, TTTF and PRG. The rye seems to check out around now I think the way it grows makes it look uneven. It seems like whatever varieties are present, aren't the best for diseases. Lastly, there's a lot of that thick fescue (KY-31?). I have those cheap solar lights from Amazon, all over the backyard.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I have to ask - for the future reel, are you going greensmower??


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 to answer your question, this picture was sent to me by an esteemed member in Michigan.


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## Wiley (Dec 2, 2019)

This will be a good one to follow. Good luck!!


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Nice! I've always wanted to try a Mclane or Tru Cut.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 aside from the 20" Scott's, this will be my first reel mower, so I am pretty excited. I need to figure out how to fabricate a roller on the back of it though. Eventually, I want to get an Allett Liberty 43. Now if I can only convince my city to remove the two trees in the parkway, then I would reel mow the front too.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Today is the point of no return. Spraying Roundup at the label rate of 54oz in 9gal of water to cover 2,857sqft. With a 2gal sprayer it's going to take several refills.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I probably should have used blue marking dye. I suck with the handheld sprayer.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Your neighbor missed more than you with their gly app though!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko haha.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

This actually looks like good coverage to me. Did you use the roundup with diquat in it? That's a lot of brown for only 2 days.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 yes. I also applied during the hottest part of the day.


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## Butter (Nov 14, 2017)

I agree with bf7. That's good coverage for the first round.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Butter thats good to know. I know that over application is less than ideal, so I sat down and did the math until it looked right. Should have used 6oz 9.18 times, but used only 9 of them.

I'll be mowing low this weekend and getting topsoil by Tuesday.


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## briansemerick (Apr 11, 2021)

good luck! I killed and did monostand Mazama in my front in 2020 and monostand RPR (rye) in my back in 2021.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@briansemerick thank you. I would have done a monostand of Mazama, but couldn't find enough seed anywhere.


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## briansemerick (Apr 11, 2021)

in case you still want Mazama, I got some for filling in dead spots here:

https://www.cdford.com/lawn-and-garden-1/mazama-kentucky-bluegrass-10


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@briansemerick thank you but I had ordered 10lb of KBG already.


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## briansemerick (Apr 11, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @briansemerick thank you but I had ordered 10lb of KBG already.


awesome. I'll check out your thread later


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I will be scalping the backyard tomorrow. Some spots seem harder to kill.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Scalping today finally and trying out the Earthwise 21" Sweepit. It does a decent job.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Got around to using the Toro to do a proper scalp. More rain tonight/ tomorrow, so I'll have to hold off a bit. Probably won't get topsoil until Thursday or Friday since it'll be wet and heavy.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

That mower looks too clean for mid scalp! And you still have the striping kit on, phenomenal!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko I will admit that I dusted it off after emptying the bag prior to. The striping kit is annoying to take off, I hate messing with the hook.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Finished scalping and cleaning up most of the debris. I ended up dethatching again. I have to carefully trim around a few sprinkler heads. Should be getting topsoil on Thursday and if it's dry enough, begin spreading it.




This head has to get lowered and fixed in the next few days.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

My test pot of the SS1100 seed blend took 7 days for germination. Zero fertilizer added to it. If your yard was really flat prior to a reno, would you still add topsoil to all of it, or just fix minor areas? After yesterday's work, I can see the soil almost everywhere and walking across there aren't many bumpy spots. I may use the drag mat all the way around and evaluate afterwards.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

For degree of leveling, HOC would probably be the determining factor. Are you sticking with the rotary mower, or planning on going "reel low"? If you're sticking with the rotary, a 36" leveling rake ("levelawn") might come in handy for minor depressions. A drag mat is good for grooming, but it contours to the surface and doesn't really level. They do make flat, rigid drag mats, but I haven't used one. I got my leveling rake from R&R Products and really like it.

If you needed something larger, you could pick up some 2x4s and build a small grading box with the outer frame on edge, and lay the cross rails flat to allow for soil/sand to move over them while they scrape/level the surface. Treated wood is heavier and would probably work better than fir, which is used for framing. If you wanted to get fancy, bolting (or welding) up some angle iron would make a nice drag. You could repurpose a bed frame, if you had one laying around. The cheapest and easiest would be to find a free pallet from HD the next time you pick up rocks. It's not exactly a box grader (unless you framed a box around the pallet to hold material), but could help with some leveling.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Don't add soil if you don't have a need to. That picture you posted (close up, overhead, post scalp)... if all areas look like that, you will be fine. Your seeds will still find their way into the soil, it will get plenty of light, and that stubble will help hold the seed in place and protect it from birds. My best areas or my renos have been areas that were not scalped down to bare dirt.


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## TheZMan (9 mo ago)

Tuned in - lawn of the year 2023 coming right here.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI the plan is to reel mow. I do have one of those leveling rakes.

@jskierko you just saved me time and money. I don't know where I got the idea that I "needed" to topdress the whole lawn. Thinking about it now, probably 90% of the whole area is level (blade wise) after mowing. I forgot I did that to the side because it was actually sitting too low and pooling.

These are the problem areas I've noticed since post-irrigation install. The red circled areas need to be raised and leveled from the lines settling the soil too much. The blue indicates where the L connectors were buried and the soil wasn't tamped down adequately. I think soaking it and using the lawn roller will help a little. Also, one of the buried downspouts wasn't tamped down enough. I'm getting 1/2 yard of 50/50 compost and topsoil. If I need more it's a quick trip, otherwise the owner doesn't charge me to dump leftovers.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I finished scalping and used the PRS around the edges. Picked up 1/2 yard of 50/50 topsoil and compost. I started spreading it around, will do more tomorrow. Several feet around pavement was lower than I anticipated, along with the edge around my boxwoods and flowers. Also picked up some 18-24-12 (no phosphorus yet this year) and another bale of peat moss.


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## TheZMan (9 mo ago)

Jeff,

The actual seed dropping phase. How do you get enough seed soil contact? Is it going to be by hand or slice seeding?

Maybe i missed it but is there a thatch layer to worry about?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@TheZMan come to find out, the overseed last fall was too heavy IMO. That is probably why LS/MO was such an issue. Some spots I couldn't dethatch last September because it was too wet. I will use my Lesco 80# or maybe even the Scott's DLX. The Scott's worked fine on the the side reno last year.

I will make sure I have the edge guard down (I'm terrible with it at times). Probably put down by hand any areas I miss.

During the last week, I used the Greenworks dethatcher three times, as well as the Greenskeeper II rake. Scalping afterwords cleared a lot of space. I have to cut by hand around the sprinkler heads, but KBG will fill in.

Before seed down, I will rake the soil to loosen it. After spreading the seed and prior to spraying Tenacity, spreading 18-24-12 then peat moss, I will use a combination of my lawn roller and the McLane (lots of guys use their reel mower to get good seed to soil contact). Last year I used the lawn roller on soil that was less than ideal as far as raking, but it worked fine.

Edit: slit seeders are hard to come by where I life and I know you have to criss cross just right. Two years ago, my sod guy did a slit overseeding in the front. It seems like too much to rent one and learn how to operate.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Hot weather and rain has slowed down my reno as of late. Tonight I used the McLane to scalp it down to 7/8". Doing so allowed me to get a better feel for any bumps and divots. I underestimated how heavy the reel mower is, looks like I need to bulk up a little.

I need to screen the soil a little bit better tomorrow and start leveling. In the mean time, I've been running irrigation early in the morning. A few small weeds have popped up.


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

I'll help you out, you can send the rain my way. You can keep the hot weather though.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@situman all the good rain went out east. 😢 This heat is for the birds.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I jinxed myself about the rain. Late night heavy rain. I have to mow the front tomorrow (if it's dry). Hopefully the soil will be dry enough for me to spread some. Earlier today I used the rotary to suck up all remaining debris. Lots of open soil now and I can really feel the uneven spots.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Spread and leveled topsoil in the lowest spots today.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

How does the topsoil look? Mine was loaded with little clay pebbles.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7it does have little dirt balls. Last year I fabricated a screener that fits my wheelbarrow and Gorilla Cart. Pretty decent job at 1/4" getting most of the dirt balls out.

We got some rain late last night. After it dries, I intend on walking the backyard and feeling any spots that need to be top dressed again. I still need to trim around two back sprinkler heads with my scissors. So far, I spread soil around the whole small area up closer to the house. I felt that it was too flat and dipped. When water gushes out of the drain pop up, it just sits there. Plus this is where most of the damage was from irrigation install. I then followed the straight line of the longest irrigation line towards the back and top dressed that. Several feet length wise behind the garage sat a little low.

Lastly, about a 3'x15' area in front of the sewer, it sloped too drastically. During last years mega storms, it pooled in that part of the yard.

This will probably be far from perfect and I can see myself putting sand down within a few years.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I started fallowing today, early in the morning. Just 1x a day as I am still grading. Next week I'll water 3x a day.

Here is a rough draft of how I envision the reno to look with a collar wrapped all the way around minus where my table is located. This is to completely Jeff proof any accidents. .875"-1" (push reel) in the middle and 2"-2.50" for the wrapped around collar. Only one sprinkler head would be exposed, but I could go around it carefully and trim with my shears.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The downspout that was buried last year, caused quite the bump. I ended up cutting that area out and leveling it, sloping it downward. Might use the drag mat, top dress and play with that area some more.

Before: 


After:


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## TheZMan (9 mo ago)

Scalped and almost there!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@TheZMan close. I was walking the yard last night trying to see if I could notice any dips. The not so fun part will be hauling all the leftover soil back. Thankfully the owners don't really charge me to return leftovers. I'm hoping this crazy wind can let up so I can finish up the prep work.

I've found a strange amount of tiny pebbles in the top of the soil from the sod. On the plus side, I've had two semi-heavy downpours the last few nights and didn't see any problematic pooling and the soil didn't wash out. I'm going to get at least 2 Pennington seed blankets for some of the edges. But this time, I won't forget to remove them.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Watering the back at 3:30am, 8:00am and moon, I'm seeing some weeds pop up. This weekend is crunch time to do any last minute leveling but it looks good.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I had my nephew walk the backyard and point out 4 spots I need to correct with topdressing tomorrow. Nothing too significant. I have about 10 cubic yards to throw down. I will use the drag mat for that. Lots of weeds popping up, but thankfully no grass. I bought some 41% glyphosate from Seed World for the final spray.

My seed down date is between Aug 4-6. That would be between Thursday and Saturday. But with a mini heat way coming, how should I proceed watering wise? More (4) shorter cycles or stick with my normal 3 longer?


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

I would go more often. You can always dial it back if you see pooling.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I contemplated doing more cycles for less time. Sadly Hydrawise doesn't save history too far back. I believe last year I watered twice a day for 10-12 minutes each. Right now I'm planning on starting with:

Parkway: 4 min at 4:45, 8:45, 12:45 and 3:45
Front: 8min in conjunction with the parkway as that is zone one. 
Back: 8 minutes following the front as they are zones 4-6. Last year I would add/ subtract a minute. It's hard to tell if the peat moss is wet, unless I take off a camera here or there and place closer to the ground.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Your run times and spacing seem fine, but I would push everything back about 4 hours (i.e. 0845, 1245, 1545, 1945)... something along those lines. No sense in watering at 5am and 9am because things really don't dry out between those times anyways.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko oh okay. Once sprout and pout rolls around, is it in my best interest to stop watering that late in the day?


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

I usually keep the same schedule until I know everything has germinated. Undoubtedly you will have some grass in sprout and pout before other seeds have even germinated. I have had germination range from day 7 all the way to day 21 or so. I have never had any fungal pressure on new grass and typically have my last watering between 6-7pm all the way through the first month after seed down. YMMV though and you may not need it that late. I have very little shade on my property relative to you (just judging based on pics), so even with me watering that late most of it was still getting an hour or so more of direct sunlight.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

agree with everything @Wile and @jskierko have said. The more often, with less minutes worked really well for me. There are lots of people attempting their best right now in my neighborhood to water their newly seeded lawns and they are simply watering way too long and infrequently.

I addressed my watering schedule maybe on the second or third page of my journal, but this is what I did:
My initial watering schedule was 6x per day but for only 2-3 minutes at a time from about seed down until day 14ish when I saw more widespread germination. For my situation, anything longer than 5 minutes on the bare dirt started to create pooling or too wet of conditions. My times were 9am, 1130am, 1pm, 3pm, 5pm, 7pm

Day 14 -21: I cut out the 7pm watering unless it was a really hot or windy day. Still only 2-3 minutes at a time.

Day 21'ish to first mow: I changed the schedule to 2-3x per day. I also increased the watering to 4-5 minutes and the schedule was late morning, early afternoon, and early evening

After first mow (day 30'ish) - 45 I moved to 1x daily late morning once the dew burned off. I watered to 100% of ET value.

Day 45- every other day or third day to 100% of ET value.

By day 60 - this was mid October for me and I was only watering when I needed to.

I was able to setup the above schedule in my hydrawise controller and adjust it throughout the Reno.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

I am 99% sure I based my spring reno watering schedule off of @ReelWILawn's reno. I also watered 6 times a day for starters, 5 minutes per zone. It also got unseasonably hot about a week after I seeded, so I was supplementing with hand watering in areas that needed it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn and @jskierko I really appreciate the tips gents. This is the earliest I've ever done a reno and kbg at that. I still have a few days until seed down and I am going to right down start times and figure out how to space it out. I am still fallowing and may just run a few "overseed" cycle times and see how the soil looks after. I am using blue paper mulch and peat moss which should help.

That being said, I think I will try something like 8:30am, 10:00am, 11:30am, 2pm, 4pm and 7pm for 4 minutes each. I know amount of water isn't an important factor, but for that amount of time that's about .40" per day which is slightly more than what I can remember doing with the hose and oscillating sprinkler.

I wake up for work at 4:30 and would go outside and check the soil, spray on the shower setting at least around the edges. If it's still damp I'll just push back each start time a half hour and go from there. On a good day, I get home from work around 5pm and like any other over seed hand water if I need to.

I finished leveling as best as I could. I had to add some more soil around one side of the driveway, where I plan on using the reel mower. And I noticed there is an area along the back, right where the red line is in the picture, that I couldn't quite level it out but it doesn't seem to be too drastic. Worst case scenario, I will be using the push reel mower for collars.

I'm still dialing in the Tenacity amount needed. I hate converting oz to ml according to the chart. Is starter fertiler really necessary for a reno at seed down or is it better to hold until the recommended DAG?

Tomorrow I need to make a few passes with my dispatcher that I somehow missed.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

I think that sounds like a good plan. Just be careful watering too late once you see germination, but in the early stages you will need a 6pm or 7pm watering. Dew will be your friend overnight. Our area seems to get really hot between 1pm-4pm. So watering more frequently then seems like a good idea to me.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

sounds like a good plan! The amount of water/time will really be dependent on each unique property - area, weather, soil texture, etc.. But generally those times and schedules should be a good starting point. In my reno last year, it probably took 2-3 days following that schedule before the ground stayed saturated or slightly damp all of the time ( I started with pretty dry soil). The dew will be really helpful as we finish summer here and I bet you probably will not need to water prior to 830 or 9am under most conditions. Have plan, watch, and adjust as needed. Between noon-4pm seemed to be the most challenging - warmest part of the day, and usually the most windy as well. Once again some further great tips from @jskierko about potentially needing hand watering (I did at times), and from @Wile about looking to cut the evening watering once you get germination.

I think you are right on time for your KBG reno for where you live and your climate. Have you even looked at Pace Turf's climate appraisal? I think you might be surprised by the resutls.

I did use a small amount of starter fertilizer during my reno for two reasons. One, I wanted something mixed with the seed when it went down as that seemd to help with the little KBG seeds not getting tossed around in the wind. Second, I wanted to stay completely of the lawn until the first mow. I liked using something that was a slow release containing methylene urea as my thought process would be that it would slowly provide nitorgen just as I would start to see sprouts and continue to feed for the first 45-60 days where I would suplement with weekly spoon feedings.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

@ReelWILawn did you do any fungicides on yours? I know a well timed propi app can help drive establishment. I never really sprayed to stop damping off though.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Wile said:


> @ReelWILawn did you do any fungicides on yours? I know a well timed propi app can help drive establishment. I never really sprayed to stop damping off though.


yes I did as a preventive. I used Headway G (granular) in two split applications which contains Azoxystrobin & Propiconazole. I would not normally recommend using granular fungicides, but I think you can get away with it on a new bare ground seeding. If I would have had my sprayer last year I absolutely would have used liquids.

anyway, my first app was was applied at the slightly higher rate for a 28 day interval as disease pressure was high at the end of August last year. This was applied just as the grass was sprouting. My second app was at the end of September or early October as we were having an unseasonably warm and humid late fall. I had just enough product left to use the shorter 14 day applciation invternal so I went ahead to be safe.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Sorry for the late response. I'm waiting to see what the weather holds for Thursday. Plus it's been pretty windy to drop seed.

Once the weekend rolls around I'll have all day to monitor soil moistness. I bumped up my front yard irrigation start time to just before 5:30am, that way I have plenty of time to get out the hose and spray anything that's more susceptible to drying out early.

Once I have decent wide spread germination I will start rolling back the last cycle of the day to 4-5pm, get home from work and spray around the concrete and corners. I am not familiar with Pace Turf climate appraisals but will check it out. Synergy0852 had seed down the same time last year and he is a little ways northwest of me.

I bought 18-24-12 to put down with the seed because I too am not thrilled about walking on it too soon. My thinking is for .25# of N at seed down. Should that be sufficient? Plus the back has not gotten any phosphorus this year. That and I'm using it in the front to get the one pound of P there. I will probably throw down 46-0-0 at .25lb/ 1k after that.

The order of march will be KBG, 18-24-12, Tenacity, Headway G, peatmoss and paper mulch then rolling it all in. Once I do all that, probably run a few short cycles (3-5min) before calling it a night and checking early the next morning. I have three zones, so it wouldn't take too long the first night to keep it moist.

Looking online (I can't decipher the chart), I will need a total of .25oz of Tenacity for 2,756swft at the 4oz/ acre rate. Another website calculator ( Lawn Phix) suggested .30oz total. That is total ounces and not ounces per 1k correct? Of course reapplied a month later.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> The order of march will be KBG, 18-24-12, Tenacity, Headway G, peatmoss and paper mulch then rolling it all in. Once I do all that, probably run a few short cycles (3-5min) before calling it a night and checking early the next morning. I have three zones, so it wouldn't take too long the first night to keep it moist.
> 
> Looking online (I can't decipher the chart), I will need a total of .25oz of Tenacity for 2,756swft at the 4oz/ acre rate. Another website calculator ( Lawn Phix) suggested .30oz total. That is total ounces and not ounces per 1k correct? Of course reapplied a month later.


I usually roll right after seeding to ensure good seed to soil contact. Not sure about rolling after putting everything else down (crushing fertilizer granules, peat moss shifting/sticking to what you are using to roll, etc). Can't say for sure that it would cause any issues rolling at the end, just food for thought.

Your tenacity calc looks right. 0.25 oz or 7.5 ml or 1.5 tsp (whatever your preferred unit of measure is) spread over the entire reno area.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko good point on the rolling. 👍🏻


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Last of the prep work done after work. I found two spots I missed and top dressed. Tomorrow I want to spray glypho one last time, but it might rain. Hopefully I get the straight 41% in the mail or I'll use what I have left prior to seed down. I ordered KillzAll 41%. Should I be off work Thursday and it only rains in the morning I'll put seed down then, if not Friday after work.

I noticed that the soil is pretty spongy feeling with all the fallowing. I suppose its better than bone dry.

Here's the test pot, one day short of four weeks. Pretty impressive. No fertilizer, light water and clipping.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

That looks really good. So pumped to see this…but everywhere.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile as long as the rain stays away.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

I hear ya. That's why it's good to leave some of the dead grass to hold it in place from washout, birds and insulates it nicely. But looking at our forecast it could be on the docket this week. Hopefully a light rain for you only.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile there's still a lot of dead grass in the soil. Birds have been going nuts pecking all over. I'll be picking these up today, to put down for the first few days.


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## GCGreen (Sep 14, 2019)

What are those mats you have there in the picture?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@GCGreen Pennington seed blankets.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Lots of rain coming, glad I decided not to put seed down. Spot spraying glypho.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Heavy downpour in about a half hour and I see this. Am I going to have to spread topsoil everywhere to level it all out before dropping seed?


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Crazy how water finds the path of least resistance. If you put more material down it may not change the standing water issue completely. You might get washout from another major rain. The one upside to doing a bluegrass reno is you can plug this spot, wait for it to fill in or just hold some seed back in the event of a wash out. You may only need 1-2lbs/M for a new yard. How much seed do you have?


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

I just noticed you said you got some seed blankets. Those will help with washout somewhat too. I might still bring that area up if you can get water away from the house.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile when I topdressed, I only went off low spots and level raked and rolled to fill in, so I don't think I created spots that would be susceptible to standing water. I wonder if the new stuff is just poorly draining? It seems to be only in areas where I added 50/50 topsoil/ compost. I walked the whole yard twice, flagging areas that pooled so I could compare with today's/ tonight's rain.

I have a 10# bag of seed and need 5.51# at the 2# rate. The area by the house was topdressed, the smaller area and by the front flowerbed.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I talked to a soil expert at Penn State, Prof/ Dr. Landschoot about what happened. He asked if I aerated before adding the soil/ compost mix (of course I didn't). Pretty much having a softer layer on top of a harder/ drier layer is more than likely what caused it. I'm going to aerate those spots tonight with my hand aerator and see what happens with the rain. I wish I still had the picture, but on the side reno last year I used the 50/50 blend and it pooled the same way, despite being very level.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

This totally makes sense. Most people like to aerate to remove bulk density (depending on your soil type). Then usually add in sand for that better drainage and soil stability. You could still try to aerate it and see if that helps. I bet that would make it easier for the seed too. Not completely necessary, but might be worth considering. It sounds like you'll have leftover seed in case anything goes awry. So, I wouldn't sweat it either way.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I aerated last year and didn't think I had to again so soon. Since the soil should still be moist, I'm using the drag mat and landscape rake to see if I accidentally topdressed too heavily as well. During my break at work I watched a Ron Henry video talking about pooling from the result of heavy topdressing.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Another 1/3" of rain in 20 minutes before I could get outside. Observation wise, the same spots pooled in the front. So my plan of attack is to aerate those spots heavily tomorrow after work and try to topdress (mixed with mason sand) lightly to even them out on Saturday. I may end up getting 1/4 yard. 






Interestingly enough, areas in the back are fine. I will go ahead and lightly aerate and put some mason sand down.



Times like this I am glad I took anger management because I'm not as angry, all things considered. All least I see what areas I missed. It's a lot harder to tell when it's not 100% bare soil.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Glad you were able to get some 'practice' before putting seed down. I would suggest covering this area with blankets. If you have my luck, it's going to downpour the second you put seed down......even if it's not forecasted. Doing a great job! When are you targeting seed down?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn i bought more seed blankets today. I'm watching the weather pretty intently now. I need to by the end of the weekend.

I figured out why there is standing water in the front after a hard rain… because of the downspout pop up! The question now, is this normal but I never could tell because there was grass there, or did top dressing cause this? The installer didn't do anything to the grade aside from where the pipe was buried.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I'm just working on the trenches today. I accidentally bought Dorado beach pebbles and am using them on the side and back of the garage. That's where my downspouts aim and I needed to clean that up. Tomorrow I'm going to try and rent an aerator. I want to make two passes max. The place is only open four hours tomorrow. The ground is still too wet today, there was .10" rain overnight. Then I will do whatever minimal topdressing, spray KillzAll and let it dry. It's going to be very hot tomorrow which should help. Either seed down by nightfall or Sunday.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Interesting to see what the Dorados look like. I almost bought those by mistake many times. It's essentially the same bag.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 the color is kind of like a sandy soil and blends in with brown mulch. It's only temporary to aid with drainage. Next year I'm buying 60+ of the correct ones.

Aeration done with a 400lb Ryan aerator. Thankfully that rain helped make it easier, minus a few ruts from turning. I'll let the cores dry before collecting.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

My 12 hour day is complete and I accept the fact that it cannot get anymore level. One last glypho and it's seed down tomorrow. The only way I will hold off on dropping seed tomorrow, is if the rainfall is going to be heavy. Rain is also expected on Monday. I will be putting down seed blankets in the small area as well as most of the edges.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Get the beverage of choice ready! Looks well prepped and ready to go!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko it'll be another hot day, so Mountain Dew it is. All product measurements are written down. Since I plan on dropping seed, I apologize in advance for the impending rainfall that will invite.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

jskierko said:


> Get the beverage of choice ready! Looks well prepped and ready to go!


Once again @jskierko is right! Great work. Time to relax and check the waterings.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile thanks.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Prep looks fantastic! As the guys mentioned above, time to ease off the gas and enjoy the fruits of your labor. Non-lawn nuts don't appreciate "watching the grass grow", but you know we all do. While sometimes scary with storms, this is the fun part we don't regularly get to enjoy. Watching...


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI the prep work sure was a daunting task. If I could do it all over again, I would have realized aerating was necessary before and not after. In the three weeks I was off work, I kept saying "it's too hot, I'll do it tomorrow". I'm trying to think if there a away I can temporarily disconnect the downspout pop up emitter for a few days in case of heavy rain. If there was a way to just have the downspout go into a garbage can, I'd be golden. Pre-germination is something I'm not brave enough to try on this big of a scale. I ordered 2lb of Midnigbt, which is part of the blend. Just in case.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Everything will be fine. And if not, you'll fix it. Let the fun begin.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca yup!


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I figured out why there is standing water in the front after a hard rain… because of the downspout pop up! The question now, is this normal but I never could tell because there was grass there, or did top dressing cause this? The installer didn't do anything to the grade aside from where the pipe was buried.


Did you put seed down today?

For the question on the downspout pop ups, yes that looks normal. Depending on flow from the gutters or how many are collected into that downspout it can certainly put out a lot of water. With no vegetation, it's really easy to get some puddling or ponding.

I have a total of 4 pop ups throughout the yard (1 is in the back rock bed / garden area, 3 empty into the lawn). I thought these would be easier with the reno and would allow for slowly trickling water out compared to a normal downspout that dumps water out. It was a challenge to get grass to grow around the pop ups with the downpours I had especially two that empty on slight slope (picture this spring of the worst one I had). Two suggestions - #1 if you can easily disconnect the downspout to empty its water into your beds until you get grass established, then reconnect to the buried downspout/pop up. #2 use blankets all around the pop up and be ready to reseed that area or sprinkle small amounts of seed throughout the entire grow in --> this helped with one of my buried pop ups.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn no seed down. The storm was supposed to narrowly miss, but this is the current state of things.

Edit: it is going to rain all Monday as well. So no point dropping seed tonight as it will pick up early in the morning. I have a good shot on Tuesday as there is no rain scheduled for a week.

Tomorrow I will pick up some paint strainers and try to pregermite for the pop up areas. I have Thursday off work for a vet appointment, so on day three I can monitor from home. I was supposed to mow the front yard today, but probably can't until Tuesday or Wednesday which would put me at about 9 to 10 days in between.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Expecting 1/2" of rain all day tomorrow and the ground is too saturated. However, I did lightly seed three small corner spots, to see how it holds up with the rain.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

ReelWILawn said:


> It was a challenge to get grass to grow around the pop ups with the downpours I had especially two that empty on slight slope (picture this spring of the worst one I had). Two suggestions - #1 if you can easily disconnect the downspout to empty its water into your beds until you get grass established, then reconnect to the buried downspout/pop up. #2 use blankets all around the pop up and be ready to reseed that area or sprinkle small amounts of seed throughout the entire grow in --> this helped with one of my buried pop ups.


^This. These were the worst areas of all my renos. My pop up emitters all slope away from the house, so any rain was just a river eroding the soil on its way to the end of the property. They filled in just fine the following spring, but I can definitely still feel the path it took when I mow it (needs leveled). Wish I would have thought to disconnect the downspouts!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko at this point I'm not stressing about the pop ups. I'm trying to stay positive by seeing the effects of heavy rain and drainage on bare soil. The only thing I care about is going 5-6 days without rain. The test post was done during the hottest part of July and I didn't water it much and left it in the sun. Gotta find some optimism.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

good idea to put a blanket around the irrigation head that should help. I would also recommend to put a blanket over that entire area, especially where the water drains and runs from the pop up. Speaking from experience, it will be a challenge to get grass established there. If you have my luck, just as you get that entire area to sprout, you will have a downpour and the volume of water from that pop up will rip all those little seedlings out


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn I went out and bought a few more seed blankets while it was raining earlier. Every sprinkler head gets some surrounding it. I realized the other night that when they go down, some water fishes as it hits soil level. The small areas with the pop ups will be completely covered. Maybe someday when I do another reno I will buy those more expensive ones that don't fall apart so easily.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

My current mood after another .69" today. Should have dry soil and the all clear after work tomorrow to drop seed.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

It doesn't rain all summer and then you get ready for reno and it wont stop raining :roll: ! I 100% know what you're going through. Still plenty of time, but this is why it's good to have a plan and start early.

The blankets around all the heads is really a good idea. The flushing they do before they go back in and even the area around the head just gets soaked. I was having trouble getting grass to germinate until I used blankets or the seed aide cover grow granulars. Anyway, looking forward to following this reno for the rest of the season.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

jskierko said:


> ReelWILawn said:
> 
> 
> > It was a challenge to get grass to grow around the pop ups with the downpours I had especially two that empty on slight slope (picture this spring of the worst one I had). Two suggestions - #1 if you can easily disconnect the downspout to empty its water into your beds until you get grass established, then reconnect to the buried downspout/pop up. #2 use blankets all around the pop up and be ready to reseed that area or sprinkle small amounts of seed throughout the entire grow in --> this helped with one of my buried pop ups.
> ...


In case anyone want's a visual of what I am talking about. I replaced the connecting pipe or drainage tile from the standard metal downspout into the buried drainage pipe. In it's place, I've fitted these accordion downspout extensions instead (I still need to fix the connections to make them look nicer and more permanent, but I've been busy). This is a really good solution to have the best of both worlds. If for some reason, I dont want the water to emit from the pop ups in the lawn, I can smiply pull the extensions out and they empty into the rock beds. This is great when you're trying to grow grass around your pop ups or fix the areas that did not grow in well from last year like I am doing. I also had some issues with the downspouts freezing last year so this could also serve as good option for us northern icy climate people who get rain, freezing rain, and snow from November-March. I also have a cap I can screw on to stop any water or debris from falling in when the extensions are in 'out mode'


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn I'm about 4-5 days late on my initial seed down date. But I'd rather just now be starting than stressing out over 2-3 washouts. Hopefully I won't disappoint.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

That's smart Jeff! I'm not as patient and would have already put the seed down and been kicking myself. Great meme btw!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I'm surprised for having the patience that I did.

Work let out at 1:30 today. Plenty of time to mow and drop seed.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Seed down early this evening. I put down 18-24-12 (.25lb/k N, .33lb/k P and .17lb/k K)4lb rate of Headway G, 1.5tsp of Tenacity, 1.5 bags of peat moss and most of the seed mats. I smoked 3 Black and Milds and drank two Mountain Dews to celebrate. No rain until hopefully Sunday. Maybe after one week I'll remove the seed mats.

For at least the first day or two, this is going to be my irrigation time. Plus running 3minutes at 4:00am tomorrow morning only just to see how moist the soil is.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

If I were you I would get rid of those "predictive watering" aspects. If you have an 85% chance of rain and your irrigation doesn't trigger and the rain misses, you are going to be fretting. I have hydrawise as well, and I took all those off, including the "rain sensor". I feel like my rain sensor keeps irrigation shut down for long after my reno would dry out. Best to try to monitor everything manually rather than letting a system make decisions for you.

Congrats on seed down!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko yeah I took the screenshot before I realized it. My Hydrawise has three programs set up, front yard, backyard and whole yard (seldom use). The separate yards are for overseeding, thus didn't make all the tweaks needed yet. I've made the mistake before with missed rain.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Looks good and congratulations on getting to the next step! Irrigation schedule and timing looks good. I also removed all the predictive watering triggers as well last year. Just monitor it and see how it goes after the first 1-3 days as you may need to make small changes in time or duration. If it gets a little dry that should be fine. I feel like I've had better success with seeded areas where I am watering the minimum amount and not worrying too much. I worry more about unexpected washouts


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn thanks. Tomorrow I should have a good idea, being home most of the day to watch the soil. Temperature wise it's very good for the next week.


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> Seed down early this evening. I put down 18-24-12 (.25lb/k N, .33lb/k P and .17lb/k K)4lb rate of Headway G, 1.5tsp of Tenacity, 1.5 bags of peat moss and most of the seed mats.


You're in the lead, but I'll race you to the finish. I rolled out 3 more yards of topsoil, dragged, rolled, and then spread 15-23-10 yesterday. Seed and peat moss go down today.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 darn buckeyes. Weather is really good for seeding now.


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

@Jeff_MI84 I may reside in ohio, but I could hit a golf ball from my yard to the great state of Michigan. GO BLUE!!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 even better.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

My observation so far:

With temps in the mid 80's for the later part of the afternoon, I came home to find the back area behind the garage was dried more than everywhere else. I will keep 4 minute cycles but add an extra minute for those three heads for the 3pm and 5pm run times. Around 9:30 I will hand water any spots that look dry.

Tomorrow it won't reach 70° until one hour after the first cycle. I didn't push the landscape pins all the way down so it would be easier to pull them out. Should I pull the blankets off once I have germination throughout or wait until they're about 1/4"-1/2"?


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Good catch already on the watering. With the blankets I think you're best to wait until you have consistent germination throughout. That might mean .5" or 1.5" in spots. If you pull too early it might rip the seedlings out of the ground.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I think I have to add a short cycle for one area in the morning already, dry peat moss along the backside. Last year I was too timid to take the blankets off, but by then the grass was probably already 2"+.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

That sounds about right. You could run the manual reel on it. Peat moss can go hydrophobic quick. So probably adding a minute to each run wouldn't be bad.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I decided to run 1 minute at 4:00am and do 4 minutes for every other one. Then add another minute for the last cycle of the day for the back where it dries out. Plus doing a manual cycle of 30-60 seconds around 1:30-2:30 to keep it moist. There's no pooling unless I run 5 minutes straight in a few spots. Soil feels wet during the day. I guess even being careful watering less, I should still have germination.

Stupid birds think this is a buffet.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I put down another seed blanket, my last one along one of the edges. I need to buy more peat moss and throw 'er down in some spots. I could only find one of my fake owls, as the birds are congregating.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> Stupid birds think this is a buffet.


I got the same thing with half a dozen bunnies. 😅.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I had the same rabbit in my backyard for three years. Once they find a place they won't leave. These birds are hardcore. I was hand watering the shrubs and they just hopped around me looking for dinner.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Some of the peat moss under the sea blankets, appears to be drying out. I wonder if I might have gone too heavy, or if I should just increase runtime another minute or two in the afternoon. The blankets are plenty wet. Perhaps it is a. Effect of having the blanket over the peat moss?


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Get some balloons (shiny/reflective preferred), tie them to string, put them on a post in the middle of the yard. If the reflection off of them doesn't scare the birds away, the balloons blowing in the wind will. That and the pinwheel spinners did wonders for me. The birds probably won't have an effect on the overall outcome when you think about the total number of seeds you have out there, but for under $5, it was worth the piece of mind for me not to see birds rummaging through the area.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko pinwheel spinners sound like fun. Gotta spruce up the dirt yard.


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## Baretta (Apr 8, 2019)

If you want to go over the top, Yard Enforcer Motion-Activated Sprinkler should do the trick. Scare off the birds and water the dirt at the same time.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Baretta 😝


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Rain this weekend. I'll be watching to see what happens. I might get one more seed blanket along the edge, but only if there's time. The weatherman better not be lying this time.

I've barely tweaked the irrigation. The soil still feels damp in the later afternoon. I moved the 7:00pm up twenty minutes just so it would be damp going into the morning.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I cut the irrigation runtime down for most of the day as rain is coming later today. I ran each head for 2min at 9, 11am and 1pm. I bought a 10x12' tarp to cover a back corner and leave it on for a few hours.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

One of the corners I put seed down last Sunday, I found maybe 6 grass babies earlier today. The big storm completely missed my area today. Slight chance of morning rain, so I may not turn the sprinklers on until 3-7pm. I really hope to see more germination by next Wednesday/ Thursday.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Congrats! That was fast.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile thanks. I'll feel better once I see it under the blankets. Oh if only I had put seed down in other spots last Sunday.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Same spot I took a picture of last night. Spotty but it's growing, 7 DAS. My hope is to see more everywhere else by Sunday next week, which be 12 DAS.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

It will explode next few days for a week or so, to enter the lazy 5 to 7 days wtf am I doing on Earth stage. Then get your manual reel sharp for daily...ish mow fun.


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## Biggylawns (Jul 8, 2019)

Do you pull the seed blanket up or do you leave it?


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> One of the corners I put seed down last Sunday, I found maybe 6 grass babies earlier today. The big storm completely missed my area today.


Congrats! I was in Marshall/Battle Creek on Saturday and Sunday morning. It rained all day on Saturday. FYI, there's not much to do in Battle Creek, especially when it's cold and raining. I was watching the radar at home and I got about the same as you. Nothing much. It eventually did rain, but not even 1/4" by Sunday evening. There will be germination coming soon for both of us!


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

looking good! Should start to see more and more germination every day now.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 that's a ways away from me. I was surprised that the rain missed.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn now comes the fun part, going outside with a flashlight in the dark to take pictures. 😆


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

After work I walked around. Seeing small bits of germination around.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Lookin good.. timing seems about right at 6-8 days after seeding. Next couple of weeks should be fun as you watch things transform..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 the more I see by the weekend, the better I'll feel. I have this feeling I'd have to throw more seed down.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

start thinking about taking weekly photos from the same spot or area. You will be surprised how much the lawn progresses every 7 days. We tend to look at the lawn all the time during the reno and it's hard to tell if anything is even growing. Helps with your sanity too :lol:


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn once I start seeing green in the middle, I think I'll be good to start taking weekly pictures.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Stuofsci02 the more I see by the weekend, the better I'll feel. I have this feeling I'd have to throw more seed down.


If you ever have doubts I will share with you some photos of my last years reno where I thought more seed would be necessary vs now. I refrained from adding seed since KBG fills in. It was the right choice as those areas are a distant memory less than a year later... In fact they were all filled in by May..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 if I'm seeing large bare spots by day 20, drop more?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

How I feel finding more grass babies in another spot.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Stuofsci02 if I'm seeing large bare spots by day 20, drop more?


I don't think so…. This is 30 days after seed down…. One of the areas I thought was the worst…


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 that's reassuring. Maybe one or two days of a light sprinkle will help me along too. Zero rain since seed down.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Stuofsci02 that's reassuring. Maybe one or two days of a light sprinkle will help me along too. Zero rain since seed down.


That is good. I'd rather have no rain and be able to control the water…. BTW here is that same area at day 70. Note the patches are areas I rounded up due to some poa coming back.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)




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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Stuofsci02 said:


> That is good. I'd rather have no rain and be able to control the water…. BTW here is that same area at day 70. Note the patches are areas I rounded up due to some poa coming back.


^^^^ This! having delt with multiple washouts throughout last year's reno I would much rather have warm temps and the ability to water. You can always add water via irrigation.... you cannot take away the torrential downpours.

This was also my experience at around day 70. If you are approcacing 25-30 days and there is zero germination yes think about putting more seed down. This is why one of my biggest takeaways from last year was to to take regaular weekly photos. You wont notice the growth and it filling in over 60-70 days just looking at it all the time. I had to constantly review those photos and it reminded me that, "hey it's not that bad, look how far it's come "

This was one of my worst areas that took the longest and was impacted by washouts vs Day 62 vs day 77 (and the thin spots near the curb have alsmost completely filled in by now) :thumbup:


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 IF I ran into theft situation in a few weeks, I will just rent a slit seeder to make it easier. Day 70 seems like a long ways away when I think about it, still nice out by then.

@ReelWILawn proably by the weekend I will take pictures of every area for comparison. The fun part will be once it's filling in all over, I can get those gratuitous drone shots. I started gently lifting and peeling small parts of two seed blankets. Grass babies underneath.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I would steer away from my buddy @Stuofsci02 tactics.
Anything larger than 4 to 5 inches that is bold after 10 days, I will throw seed down. Your initial germination hits the sprout n pout period and it will allow new germination to happen.
Any fixes beyond 2 weeks risk to be somehow a flop.
Pushing an emerging KBG to spread has great results. But not beyond realistic, and not next season.
This is my personal experience.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca yeah I found a spot this morning that I'm throwing some seed down later.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Babameca said:


> I would steer away from my buddy @Stuofsci02 tactics.
> Anything larger than 4 to 5 inches that is bold after 10 days, I will throw seed down. Your initial germination hits the sprout n pout period and it will allow new germination to happen.
> Any fixes beyond 2 weeks risk to be somehow a flop.
> Pushing an emerging KBG to spread has great results. But not beyond realistic, and not next season.
> This is my personal experience.


Hahaha.. You've been planting Champion GQ PRG for far too long my friend :lol: .... Based on your repair timeline you would have reseeded my entire reno two extra times last year... Under *optimal conditions* most elite KBG takes 7-10 days to germinate and could take up to 21 days. You might get sprouts here and there at day 5 or 6 if it is warm and you have been able to keep it wet, but expecting to be able to judge how well it is going at day 10 is not realistic IMO.. Most of your seed may not have even germinated yet and what has probably hasn't even broken the surface yet..

This is day 11 for me last year in the area that came in the quickest. KBG only renos are not for the impatient...


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 this is a good exercise on improving my patience. That's for sure.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Agree with @Stuofsci02, patience is key. I don't want to inundate your journal with other reno pics, but it's wild looking at comparisons of 1 month vs 2 months after seeding. I think it was @ken-n-nancy that gave me the advice several years ago, if you have even a single seedling in a 1 sq ft area you should ride it out. Picture documentation was provided as well. Areas that looked essentially bare were almost completely filled in by the following spring. From experience, overcrowding is much more challenging to deal with than undercrowding.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko I think I read recently how one germinated seed should spread to fill one square foot eventually. That's crazy.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I shut off the sprinklers at 1:45, as it started to sprinkle a little after 3:00pm. The back corner is looking good today. I'll be watching to make sure the pop ups don't flood. One of those rare cells that came from Canada. Should be done in two hours, no more irrigation until 9:00am.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

@Jeff_MI84 just read through your entire journal. I am about a week and a half behind you in terms of my reno, but this journal has such a wealth of great information for someone like me who is doing this for the first time. I will definitely be watching how your reno is progressing.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@JBC-1 thank you. This is only my first big reno. Other than a small one last year and a crappy one I did a few years back, most of my experience has been overseeeding.

I will say that fallowing has paid off big time, along with spraying Tenacity. Nothing really weed wise has popped up.

My biggest mistakes so far:

1. Not thinning out the middle of the lawn enough. That's the area I'm struggling to see germination thus far.

2. Not getting enough peat moss. That's probably what contributed to #1.

3. Not getting enough seed along the edges right away.

4. Aerating AFTER some top dressing.

Do you have a sprinkler system or do you have to use a hose end sprinkler? Other members were adamant about going 2-4 minutes 6 times a day. Over the course of the last week, I have noticed, that two hours apart for 2 to 3 minutes is more than sufficient. I have stuck with 2 minute cycles, then ran them for another minute at 11:45, 1:45, 3:45 and sometimes 5:45pm. Learn what areas pool up fast. Hand water by the concrete if you can.

The Pennington seed blankets I bought, have come in handy. I'm at the point now, where I'm going to have to start tearing more and more parts away within the next few days. They are about $20 apiece, but definitely well worth it. Especially areas by pop-up drains.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @JBC-1 thank you. This is only my first big reno. Other than a small one last year and a crappy one I did a few years back, most of my experience has been overseeeding.
> 
> I will say that fallowing has paid off big time, along with spraying Tenacity. Nothing really weed wise has popped up.
> 
> ...


I am only 4 days since seed down, but I have noticed a few things which made me relate to your journal a bit more. I have a sprinkler system, and am also using the Hydrawise system. I set up a grow in pattern very similar to yours, but am still adjusting the times daily. I am watering about 5-6 times a day, but in certain parts of the day I can see 2-3 minutes two hours apart will work better for sure.

I am hand watering near the concrete, and one other part that is not getting the best coverage due to a shrub. I am definitely going to look into the seed blankets, as I am having the same problem by the pop-ups. Most of the seed has already washed away from those areas, but I don't want to step in the reno area, so figured I would add more seed down the road.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@JBC-1 thats all good.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

More germination spotted today. Some areas are looking green from a short distance.

A few spots under the seed blankets as I was removing them gently, I could see white tips of individual blades. I'm guilty of hand watering them, presumably too much but will stop.

Tonight is the last night of a 7pm watering, I ran it one minute only. Tomorrow I will do 6:30 for the last one and gradually back to 5:30 by the end of the weekend. 9 DAS and I can faintly see more seedlings popping up. Maybe by day 14-16 I'll water NLT 5pm and just lightly hand water the edges all the way around. I realize now that at this time of night, almost 1.5 hours after the last watering that the soil looks almost too wet.

This is my adjusted schedule starting tomorrow.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Nice! Slowly it's coming along. Growing KBG takes some serious patience but it's worth it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn its amazing how it can change from before to after work. Maybe within two weeks I can see it fill in from the drone.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

yes! it's crazy. One morning you will wake up to a sea of green


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

A late night flashlight picture, by the table.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

This is coming along very well!


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @ReelWILawn its amazing how it can change from before to after work. Maybe within two weeks I can see it fill in from the drone.


It's coming in nicely! I've been taking a pic of mine each morning before I leave and then sometimes in the evening too. The first few days of TTTF really expanded from one morning to the next.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca thanks. I'm starting to see green in the middle, but not as much yet.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 pretty soon you'll never be able to tell that it was just bare dirt.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking good.. you're at day 11 AS?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 yes, day 11.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Prepping for the storm. Improvise, adapt and overcome. It should lessen the chance of flooding. I last rain the sprinklers at 2:30, will shut off until 8:45am, depending on tomorrow's rain.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Progress so far. Fingers crossed that the rain isn't as severe.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Grow babies grow!


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## 606-Lawn (5 mo ago)

Good luck


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca they're trying. First round of rainfall was weak. The worst of it missed thankfully. More late/ tonight and tomorrow.

@606-Lawn thanks.

From the looks of it, I may not turn the sprinklers back on until Monday morning. I think from now on when downpours are expected I will disconnect the pop-ups. I had no idea it would be so easy. The middle of the yard I can see faint spots of green. That's what I get for not coming the whole area with peat moss.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Storm rolled thru after 4:00am, it woke me up. I got .68". So far, baby grass is bent over (maybe leaf blower or vacuum if it won't stand on its own). Pieces of compost are all over. One nicer area towards the back is covered with mulch. Maybe just a foot or two wide. Raking it out later.

On the plus side, removing the downspouts from the pop ups saved me from a massive washout. Also, the seed blankets probably helped the grass stay in place in those areas. By next weekend I'll have a better idea if I actually need to reseed with a slit seeder, based on if I see germination in the middle where it's lacking. August 30th will be 21 DAS.

Two questions. If I do rent a slit seeder, do you need to roll it over? Also, growing plugs now, how long after germination should I wait to move them into the yard?

More rain expected in the early evening.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I hate squirrels.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking better each day…. You never feel great until you see germination everywhere, but this looks par for the coarse..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 thank you. I've been lucky to have gone this far with only one heavy rain. I can see blades popping up in the middle now. Raked what I could from the compost washing away.


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

@Jeff_MI84 Sounds like you got a bit more rain than I did. Looking good still. A little repair ain't that bad if the trade off is otherwise free irrigation.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 it was supposed to be worse, but somehow missed my area.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

$220 water bill for the last three months isn't that bad. I'd hate to see the next one.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

This is what I like to see, some faint spots of green.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking pretty good. Mine is looking similar. Seems several Reno's have been a little slower this year, mine included.. Temps are the only thing I can think of.

Edit…. I should clarify that the slower Reno's are all planted 10-15 days ago. The ones that were planted 3+ weeks ago came up pretty quick.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 good point. Maybe a few days after my seed down, the low's were anywhere from the upper 40's- low 60's. I figured as much when my flower pots didn't need watering after being gone 10-11 hours, colored to a few weeks prior. A decent portion of mine as 1" in several spots, but nothing too widespread yet. At least the next week the high temps are good. I knew from the get go that it wasn't because of Dimension, I calculated it out to be enough for early July.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

great to see the blankets and removing the downspout from the pop up helped! Looking good and the weather forecast looks great


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn yeah it could have been a lot worse. I dropped some seed around on of the edges two days ago, may put more down today.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The middle is greening up slightly, every day. The little corner is the thickest. I kind of kick myself not having seeded more on that day. Today is 14 DAS. The squirrel I named Butthole is going crazy looking for it's nuts.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

at day 14 this is looking pretty good. I see a sea of green out there!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn that's reassuring for sure.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

You are looking good. This will turn out well imo, without addition seed or work…

Say hi to Butthole for me..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 the added green the last few days makes me think I totally underestimated the outcome too prematurely. My squirrels have been going crazy digging holes, at least the kbg will fill it in eventually. Funny how they didn't start doing it until after I dropped seed.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

More green popping up in the middle of the lawn in the last two days.

I'm taking a wild guess that a mouse is digging into the soil at night. I found two holes that weren't there earlier in the evening before sundown. Not much I could do except spray vinegar and mint around the driveway and empty parts of the flowerbeds, then got some spare glue traps by the downspout extenders.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Some pictures from today. It's filling in except a few spots. Im putting down some seed along one edge and a spot in the middle I can't see anything.

Found a mouse on a glue trap and caught the squirrel digging in the back. Laying more glue traps to stop the digging as I found two fresh holes today.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks good…. It's always painful to watch kbg grow in..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 it's not so bad now, because I have a lot more faith in the process. I bet by the end of next weekend, it will look so much better. I decided, that my last irrigation cycle of the evening will now be 6 PM. Probably still for two minutes, at least for a few days then I will just roll it back to one minute.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Stuofsci02 it's not so bad now, because I have a lot more faith in the process. I bet by the end of next weekend, it will look so much better. I decided, that my last irrigation cycle of the evening will now be 6 PM. Probably still for two minutes, at least for a few days then I will just roll it back to one minute.


Yeah. I agree. I am going to let mine go another 8 days without even looking at it. Mostly because I am away on a business trip until next Friday lol.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 you have the perfect excuse to not look at your reno. Watering my flowers every other day and shrubs twice a week it's awful hard not to take a peek.

New irrigation run times. 9 and 11am are 1 minute, everything else is 2 minutes, but might roll back the 6pm to 1 minute as well. There is still some sprout and pout I think, the areas that took longer to germinate at first.

By the 21 day mark, is it wise to roll back to one minute run times? That is what I am thinking, especially the 4-6 run times. I estimate the last seed I am throwing down this weekend, are a few small areas where either it washed away, birds got to it or I missed it initially with the spreader, probably no more than 30sqft will get seed. I am happy with the progress the last few days.

Behind my house there is a gas station and an abandoned bowling alley. We seem to have a rodent problem every few years. One of my neighbors is terrible when it comes to picking up dog poop, plus having seed down presumably attracts them. I bought some rodent repellent and put more glue traps down. I hate seeing holes.

I figure there are still a few weeks until my first mow. Judging by his out of order videos, I think CW had his first mow around week 5. However, I am getting anxious for it. Is 46-0-0 at .25# rate my best choice for spoon feeding. I have 18-24-12, 28-0-3 and a slow release similar. I still need .83lb of potassium as per the soil test. Should I hit the lawn with that after the first few mows and before October comes?


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

It's looking good. I think cutting the late watering to earlier is good. Is a minute long enough to keep it moist?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile from 9-11 it actually stays fairly moist with the weather we've had lately. Before the end of the night I have it set for one minute for 9am, so I don't forget. I have another program that I set staggered with the normal backyard, to run one minute per zone if needed. Tomorrow I'll run it at 6pm for one minute, see how it looks and run another minute if necessary. I'm glad I did not go 3-4 minutes per zone at first. When about should I lessen the number of cycles while increasing run time?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I threw down three handfuls of seed along the western side of the lawn edge, along with peat moss.

Yesterday I called another golf course looking to find a place to service my reel mower. Thankfully, I found two leads. One to sharpen the reel and another to service it. Will be calling them tomorrow. One downside, the place that can sharpen the reel, they are a short driving distance from work but I don't trust leaving the McLane in the bed of my truck for ten hours. Ford security is the absolute worst.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Day 20 and it is looking good. This is only the forth day of rain since seed down. Heavy rain expected later but I'd say a good portion has germinated by now. This weekend I caught 8 mice in the backyard. I'm like Charlie Kelly, King of the Rats, except with mice.



Around the pop-ups it doesn't look too bad so far. I will have to remove the beach pebbles and dig the trenches deeper, from 4" down to 6". There is minimal pooling after round one of the storm, but nowhere near as bad as prior to seed down.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

It's filling in nicely. I guess yesterday's rain helped. Needless to say, I've been pretty lucky so far.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Nicely done - I think you could start mowing the longer spots to promote more lateral spread. Do you have a manual reel? Maybe try at 1 inch and see how much comes off.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Looking real good so far. Starting to fill in nicely.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

bf7 said:


> Nicely done - I think you could start mowing the longer spots to promote more lateral spread. Do you have a manual reel? Maybe try at 1 inch and see how much comes off.


Even if you don't have a manual reel you will be fine to grip it and rip it with the mclane. My first mow of my last 2 renos I went straight to the 1600. Grass (even young grass) is resilient and it'll handle the weight. Just try to be gentle on the turns.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 I do have a manual reel mower. I'm sharpening it and working on it this weekend. The height latch/notch on one side doesn't stay in place, so need to mess with it. If my last watering is at 6pm, how should I handle spot mowing? Mow before 9am's first watering/ push the first one back and mow once the dew knocks out?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@JBC-1 thank you, I have mostly matched my expectations so far.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko I'm going to start out with the 20" Scott's first. That's what I'll be using to mow around the edges and I definitely need the practice with it.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @bf7 I do have a manual reel mower. I'm sharpening it and working on it this weekend. The height latch/notch on one side doesn't stay in place, so need to mess with it. If my last watering is at 6pm, how should I handle spot mowing? Mow before 9am's first watering/ push the first one back and mow once the dew knocks out?


Don't overthink it. As jskierko said, grass is tough. Try not to mow when the soil is saturated. Otherwise you should be fine.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Finally some decent drone shots. 24 DAS and about 17 DAG. I tossed some seed in a few spots. Other than that, am I coasting now?










Depending on the temperature and how wet the soil is, I may eliminate the 5:45pm watering or just go one minute. I have it set to run for one minute shortly after the first three times, to avoid pooling if there is any. I'm doing my parkway reno tomorrow and at my parent's house, so Sunday I want to mow the back. Should I just delay the first watering Sunday morning and carefully mow early on?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 I am going to try for Sunday morning around 10am. After my last watering today (last one at 6pm), the soil is still a tad wet for my liking.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Nothing on my reno today. I talked my parents into letting me scalp, dethatch and throw down some Valkyrie LS, 4th Millenium and PRG on their parkway. Ruined my new mower blade in the process. I am probably taking over their fertilizing next year (stealing them from my old fertilizing company). Maybe a full reno is in the cards if they like how my backyard turns out.

The edge along the garage is finally starting to sprout since I threw seed down a week ago. I am noticing more weeds, but not the annoying kind pop up. Another Tenacity app is coming soon, probably more than 30 days since the first one seeing as how I threw more seed down. Late last night a neighbor caught me feeling the grass in the dark with a flashlight. I got a funny look. &#128518;


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I was able to get out and manual reel some spots at 1". Quite a bit came off. There was still a lot of dew on the grass. Other areas probably couldn't be mowed yet. I'll have to get my blower and get the cut spots to stand back up.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> Late last night a neighbor caught me feeling the grass in the dark with a flashlight. I got a funny look. 😆


That's awesome!!! I find that quite enjoyable to do, during seeding season. Especially, the fall seeding season. It's like a Phoenix rising from the ashes (quite literally for us right now, who are in Severe Drought-D2).

Was the first mow satisfying? It usually is for me, even if germination/coverage progress isn't exactly what I was hoping for.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI not really. There wasn't much to cut yet and I was pressed for time as irrigation was about to start. Buuut, having it at an inch was nice.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

This is the spot I first put seed down on August 7th. Admittedly, I started clipping it with tiny shears more than a week ago. It has nice lateral spread already. If most areas look like this by October, I'll be happy.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I am at the 2-3 leaf stage for most of the reno. Headway G went down on 9 August for seed down. Once I get to the thirty day mark, is it safe to use 1oz/ 1k (Qualipro 14.3) or should I wait for more seed to germinate? I'd like to give it a boost for better root establishment.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I'm noting quite a bit of weeds popping up, mainly in the middle. I want to try to reel mow again on Thursday morning if I can get a day off. The weaker areas show some promise. The edges are germinating a little more as well. Late last night, I went out with my mini grass scissors and gently cut as many blades as I could reach.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

8 day difference from the security camera. Taken about the same time of day, but the sun is getting lower and shade is coming earlier. The middle left area is filling in. I'm still finding new baby grass from the last two rounds of hand seeding. Watering only at 10:00am, 1:45pm and 5:15pm for four minutes and the soil is staying moist. @ReelWILawn big shoutout to you for your irrigation guidance and @jskierko for the same.

Once again I missed the boat in regard to removing the seed mats, but oh well. If that's the only goof up, I'll take it. 
August 30th:


Today:


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Such a big difference between those pictures.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile you're telling me.

I'd like to reel mow again tomorrow before the first irrigation cycle. I bought an Earthwise 16" 7 blade push mower over the weekend. It can go lower than my Scott's.

This is the weed situation. I attribute it to either not a high enough dose of Tenacity or not fallowing enough. Can I still apply Dimension this fall? If so, when is it too late? 




One of the bare spots filling in.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

I forget the timing on dimension with KBG. Usually its 8 weeks after germination/establishment for most herbicides and pre-emergents. I think I only ever got 14-21 days of coverage with mesotrione (tenacity) anyways. You're well past that timing. I imagine if you had not put it down it would be worse. That KBG is going to be so thick though, it will probably grow up your legs when you cut it and pull you into the ground like a sci-fi movie....and choke out any weeds :lol:


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I never applied prem in 1st season. Those broadleafs are so easy to deal with next season.
You will have some high pressure the 1st 1 or 2 seasons even with PreM. Then it will fade away...


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Wow this is looking great! Good job &#128077;

Give it another 14 days and it's going to look even better. You're about to enter a revolving 7-14 day improvement window from now until end of October. It will continue to improve leaps and bounds over the next 8 weeks and most of those thin areas will turn out just fine. This is why I think weekly photos are one of the important things to do on a weekly basis.

Weed situations- totally normal. I had breakthrough in mine about the same stage as yours. I did a lot of hand picking the entire reno and I followed up with an application of Tenacity 28 days post germination. That took care of 95% of what was out there and I spent the rest of the time until about Thanksgiving hand picking anything that was not KBG. For pre emergent, I went back and forth on whether to use it or not (fear of root pruning). I went ahead anyway and applied prodiamine at the lowest rate(5g/m or .183oz/M) in October or about 60 days post germination and then again this spring in April. I have seen no negative side effects from either application. Nothing appread injured in the fall, and neither prevented the KBG from doing it's thing this spring and summer of aggressively filling in. Just my .02c and my own experience which may or may not differ from others.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn thank you! The last week has been very good. Tenacity round two is approaching. The weeks really popped up on the last few days, but none of the stubborn ones thankfully. I might give my Dimension guy a call and see what he says about applying it this fall. Either way, going forward the will be bi-annual apps of the reno area. I'm getting 12 minutes of irrigation per zone for the whole day and it's still moist enough later in the day. Your recommendation gave me these results and I'll be sure to follow it for any other renos.


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## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

@Jeff_MI84 This is looking great! I've reel mowed mine 3 times now and the young grass has responded phenomenally. It's thickening and some areas are growing 3+" each week. I may be breaking the 1/3 rule running my Scott reel at its highest setting but I can't imagine cutting off more than I already am. Maybe next week I'll double cut it and lower the second pass a bit.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SeanW78 I did another reel mow this morning between 1"-1.75" in different spots.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Coming in well!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 yes sir it is. It's resembling a lawn again. Should I be careful with my turns once I use the spreader for fertilizer soon, or need not worry?


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @ReelWILawn thank you! The last week has been very good. Tenacity round two is approaching. The weeks really popped up on the last few days, but none of the stubborn ones thankfully. I might give my Dimension guy a call and see what he says about applying it this fall. Either way, going forward the will be bi-annual apps of the reno area. I'm getting 12 minutes of irrigation per zone for the whole day and it's still moist enough later in the day. Your recommendation gave me these results and I'll be sure to follow it for any other renos.


Glad to hear everything is working out :thumbup: Once the ground is damp, it really doesnt take much to keep it that way unless we get some very hot or windy weather. Looking forward to seeing this progress along.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Jeff_MI84

Is Poa annua an issue? If so, using Dimension along with Tenacity now (not sure if the grass is mature enough yet...if not, you can do another Tenacity app when it's ready) should prevent it for next Spring, even though it's a bit on the later side now. The two together work well even when you're late. Same in Spring with crabgrass. It's a little trick.

Edit: Nope, definitely not mature enough yet for Dimension, and might not be this Fall. You might have to keep doing Tenacity every 4-5 weeks if you think weeds or Poa will be an issue.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn I didn't turn the sprinklers on until after 11. Only two sides need hand watering now, but everything else was moist all day surprisingly.

@Green poa annua and poa triv aren't really much of a concern this year. It was all about seeing if I could manage a reno of this magnitude (small lawn I know). The weeds are unsightly but I'll live. Crabgrass and dandelions have not popped up on my lawn in years. I can see myself spraying Dimension in April/ May split apps then again in September next year. I hadn't sprayed Tenacity this year prior to seed down, so I'm well within the limit.

Took my McLane to get checked out, greased and any belts replaced (if needed). One of the guys there told me that the first place I called does still in fact sharpen reels and bed knives. He called his contact and confirmed that the older gentleman still does it. So once it's done at the first place, the sharpening guy will pick it up and take it to his shop and then I'll be ready to go.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

30 DAS. Excluding edges, there's only four areas that need to fill in. Running the same cycles tomorrow, then using the Earthwise reel mower Sunday once the dew is gone. I think by next weekend I will do another Tenacity app, then mid October. Since I put starter fertilizer down, maybe by next weekend or early the following week I will do .25lb N of 46-0-0. I need to put a fungicide down again.

@ReelWILawn by now should I heed your recommendation to water one time per day late morning? Right now it is 3x a day for four minutes each. I'm not sure of my ET value, but I assume it should be the less than normal, which was every third day for .50", which is 30 minutes? My heads put out .0165" per minute. My guess would be once a day for the next week and a half for 10-15 minutes after the dew is gone. 10 minutes a day for one week is 1 1/8". Any input would be appreciated.

Edit: I kicked that in the stands time wise. Tomrorow I start watering one time a day around 10:00am for 10-12 minutes total, then come day 45 once every 2-3 days, presumably for just over 1" per week until day 45 (Sept 19th). I'm mowing Sunday morning. Rain Monday and Tuesday. Is around now a safe bet to spray Propiconazole at the 1oz rate? It's been 30 days since Headway G. I'll probably use the push mower every few days starting next week.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Used the new Earthise to mow the whole lawn, or at least what could get cut. Hand pulled as many weeds, but there are still more. This coming week I'm applying 18-24-12 at .25lb rate to get closer to the P and K I need (will get .33lb P and .17lb K). Also will spray Tenacity again and Headway G. I'm wondering if RGS would be good to spray as well.

Just for my sanity, I threw down a few handfuls of seed in the bare spots in the middle. No more seed this year.

Backyard totals so far:

N: 1.25lb
P: .33lb
K: 2.12lb
S: .825lb
Cl: .08lb

I believe the factory set height of the Earthwise is 2". It gave a nice clean cut and didn't bounce like the Scott's push mower. I like it.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

Are you leaving the seed blankets down to decompose? They look very stuck. I got mine from Menards and they have the plastic netting on top, with paper fiber. I assume the plastic has to go at some point.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@macattack I missed the boat to remove them a few weeks ago. The area closest to the house, they are firm over the soil.

I bought the Pennington version that doesn't have any plastic. Same ones I used on the side of the house last fall and they are completely gone at this point. Since I'm able to walk on the lawn now, the other seed blankets I just carefully cut away with scissors when I can. I put them down thinking it would help with washouts, but there wasn't much rain the past month. Live and learn.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Heavy rain last night without much accumulation. I might tweak the irrigation to run a little earlier, so the lawn has time to dry out. I plan on dropping .25lb N of 18-24-12 tomrorow. It'll be the first feeding since seed down. By Thursday I'll hopefully mow the whole lawn again, technically two cuts already (first was a partial). I'll be lucky if I get 3lbs N at the end of the year.

At a distance, from an angle it doesn't look too bad. At least the edges by the driveway are filling in. I won't edge it until next spring after it dries.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Looks pretty good!


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

glad to see yesterday's storm did not really impact you in MI! It rained here and most of souther WI for over 24 hours straight. I have never experienced that level of non stop rain. It was hard at times and we received 7.6" over 36 hours.

This reno is looking really good. That feeding is really going to help and everything looks like it's on the right track for mid September. Watering when needing, mow often, weekly spoon feedings, and this is going to look amazing +6 weeks from now. Great job


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca thank you!

@ReelWILawn 7.6"!? Wow that's insane. The heaviest rain hit here before midnight and nothing was on radar. As hard as it rained, I only measured .10". I will hit it with starter fertilizer two more times, the phosphorus should be beneficial at this juncture with the roots. I will also add Propiconazole in granular form, probably tomorrow, so added benefits with the root development, seeing as how most all the new grass is at the three leaf stage. The following week will start 46-0-0, then probably finish up with 28-0-3. Later this week I will get the push reel mower out again.

The shop that took my McLane said it was ready to be picked up by the guy who will sharpen the reel and bed knife for me. They replaced a few minor things and took care of the rattling that was going on. Providing they have it giving a level cut, I would like to use it at least once this season. Then again, I wonder if I should hold off on mowing below an inch until the spring?


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

I think there is enough examples out there to start mowing at or near your desired HOC. I think my first couple of mows were at .875" followed by .800". I spent most of October cutting at my desired .750". I just waited a little while to get the greens mower on there until I was only watering every other or every third day and I did not mow on watering days.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn gotcha. It'll be at least a week before I get it back. On a side note, since I'm spoon feeding the reno, the morning after, should I irrigate more (like .25") or is what I'm still doing every day sufficient to prevent burning?


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

I went straight to my greens mower at 3/4" last year…. It was the first and only mower it saw until my rotary cleanup this spring..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 I appreciate the reassurance. I tend to be a little tentative. It'll take me a bit to get an even cut around the sprinkler heads for a wraparound collar (idiot proof any potential damage).


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

I wouldn't worry about any leaf burn. Even short irrigation cycles should wash off any remain foliar spray or push granular into the canopy


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn thanks.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Looks ready for the McLane...


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile you're probably right. It's at a shop in Canton now.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

When it comes back just feather the back wheel it can tear things up with the grip it has. This is exciting!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile the back wheel is pretty stubborn. I noticed that when I tried to push it up the truck bed ramp. But I did not cause any damage when I used the McLane twice to scalp, in fact more harm was done with the aerator.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tonight I put down 18-24-12 at .20lb/ 1k N.

.20lb/ 1k N
.27lb/ 1k P
.13lb/1k K
.10lb/ 1K Cl

Then applied Headway G at the 3.5lb rate (Lesco handheld spreader). It'll be the last of the Headway G in the backyard, as I should be switching to Eagle 20EW and/ or Xzlemplar.

The well established areas are looking good. I went careful with the 80lb spreader but the roots should be good enough by now. Watering in tomrorow as daily irrigation continues. I hope to mow on Thursday and apply Tenacity this week (2 days after mow?).

Back yard total:

1.45lb N
.50lb P
2.29lb K
.70lb S 
.30lb Cl

This was an overdue fertilizer application but will keep on .20-.25# N.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Doing a whole reno, I never noticed how many worm castings there can be when looking at lower cut grass. Hopefully the roller on the reel mower will help with that. I wanted to put down a fungicide just to play it safe, plus I won't have time to spray until this weekend. I have two areas in the back that for some reason dry out faster and am still giving it a good hand watering around 5:00am to supplement during the day.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Mowed the reno at 2". Maybe half of the yard is cutting height. I need to figure out how to lower the HOC on it, maybe down to 1.25".

I put the grass catcher on the Scott's 20", that's the only thing I like about it. I want a grass catcher for the Earthwise, presumably the 16-18" model. I like how it cuts. I watered early this morning but from now on will go longer between irrigating and mowing. Tomorrow I'll call the shop for an ETA on the McLane. I believe @Wile said it needed a different chain IOT increase the height?

If I could change one thing that I had control of with the reno, it would be NO grass seed mats except immediately surrounding the pop ups and sprinkler heads. Some spots they've retained too much moisture and are bunching up.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking very good.. I think you are approaching day 40?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 day 39. I'm looking forward to switching to every 2-3 days irrigation in the coming days. I bet most of the seed I recently threw don't won't germinate but oh well. Those spots with mostly dead grass visible are slowly becoming smaller, but the cooler weather seems to have halted growth.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

That looks awesome! So thick and the McLane can't come back soon enough. Yes, the shop I used took links out to make the chain smaller for the lowest HOC. They would need to add links or a new chain to move to the middle setting and adjust the axle as well. The top setting only lets you cut at 1.5". Maybe they can add the removable links so you can adjust it up or down whenever. The front roller need to change holes too for the matching settings.

Are you watering once a day right now or still multiple times? I usually bridge the gap to watering once daily (~a week) before moving to every other or every 3, but that might not be required depending on weather.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile the place I took it to, hopefully the older gentleman has some knowledge about doing all that.

I switched to once a day watering for anywhere from 9-12min. Pretty soon I'm going to every 2-3 days.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

This reno is looking mighty fine and thickened up already. Good work!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Thanks @JerseyGreens. It'll be interesting to see how thick it is by the last mow.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


>


Hot damn, that was fast!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 you're telling me. The last two weeks it has really taken off. There's still a bit of sprout and pout in some areas. I imagine once spoon feeding becomes more frequent, this time next month it will really improve.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @bf7 you're telling me. The last two weeks it has really taken off. There's still a bit of sprout and pout in some areas. I imagine once spoon feeding becomes more frequent, this time next month it will really improve.


Once you past the pout it really starts to snowball..


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 I think I'll be blown away with how it'll look in 5-6 weeks. I've been reading other reno journals and it does seem like the KBG ones have similar slow growth patterns. At first I thought I had done something wrong, but to see the more experienced guys go thru a similar thing, I realized to not stress about it and let it ride.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Picked up the McLane. Come to find out, all that was done was a backlap and minor adjusting. The person on the phone thought they had the equipment to sharpen it, but do not. I have to lower the HOC from 2", down to 1.5", 1" then get started at .875".

It's much easier to pick up and put down when I haven't been working all day.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

We want to see the first mow!!! :bandit: :beer: Maybe backlaping is all this machine needed.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca the first real REEL mow Is coming, I promise. The gentleman that worked on it is 80 years old, I felt kind of bad. He said that he didn't know of many places that actually sharpen reels anymore. That and it had been a long time since he had a McLane in his shop. Before I mow the front I have to figure out how to lower the Earthwise. So by next weekend I'm hoping. Daily watering will be done so I won't have to worry about bad turns.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Some aerial shots of the reno. It looks so much better from the ground.

Thanks to the YouTubes, I changed the position on the tires for the Earthwise, measuring 1.5". It was pretty simple to do. I have to starting lowering the HOC before getting the McLane on it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Pulled some weeds and mowed at 1.50". Some yellowing on the blades by the house. Maybe overcrowding.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Congratulations on the first mow! It looks great! :thumbsup: Spots are filling in nicely.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI thanks.


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## kdn (Aug 26, 2020)

That's filled in nicely.

Have you tested the cut on the McLane with some paper? If it's cutting nicely I'd get on it at .875" now. The young grass will respond really well.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@kdn when I bought it from Wile we did the paper test. When I picked it up yesterday, there were a few small pieces in the reel from when they did it at the shop. Next few days, I'm going to fertilize then lower to 1". That timeframe will coincide with stopping daily watering. I'd like the ground to dry up a little.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Question for reel mowing people, to stay on top of mowing low, do you ever fertilize (granular) the day after mowing or do you wait two days? Whether it's fert for a reno/ blitz or throughout the season?

I think going forward I will try (weather/ schedule permitting) to do the front one day and the back the next.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Why waiting?
If you use high sgn prils, just don't bag for 2 mows post app. And that again, is a extra safety.
But, you are better off using 120 sgn or lower on reel mowed lawn anyway...


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca oh okay. There SOP I use is greens grade, I'll have to look for something smaller for urea.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

For urea, just dissolve and spray. It is 46% N, so you won't be happy with the results spreading.
At this point buy the cheapest urea you can find.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I do granular right after mowing. So hopefully it will be melted or worked down by the next mow.

But I prefer to spray if possible. If spraying on young grass, water right away to be safe.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I need more practice spraying before spraying fert. I would hate to burn something so early on.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Second spraying urea. I never spread granular urea because it's difficult to get good even coverage at lower amounts (less than .50lbs of N). Practice spraying with water only first. Last year on my reno I sprayed urea every 7-10 days in amounts of .25lbsN or less. I did not experience any leaf burn at these rates sitting on the grass overnight. I tried to time sprays to coincide in the evenings when a irrigation schedule was set for the next morning. In summary, with smaller lawns urea=spray, AMS spray or granular.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I need more practice spraying before spraying fert. I would hate to burn something so early on.


Unless you literally stand in the same spot for 10 seconds with your sprayer on, I can assure you that you won't burn anything. There is a standard of "best practices" but very few people have perfect spraying technique. Start low, titrate slow. You will figure out what works. Follow your stripes, use marking dye if you have to, practice with water, etc. Don't take advice from me though, I am the definition of what not to do with spraying. 3.5k side yard= 1 full tank... 4.5k front yard= 1 full tank.... 10k back yard= 2 full tanks. I push the carrier volume limits, but haven't totally messed anything up yet!


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

Agreed with @jskierko. You can also monitor yourself by constantly checking the amount of water left in your sprayer. Make sure you fill up only the amount that needs to be sprayed on the lawn. When 1/4 of the water is gone, you should have sprayed 1/4 of the lawn. Keep an eye on this constantly as you are spraying and you'll know whether to speed up or slow down your walking speed. I rarely ever get calibration perfect, but haven't messed anything up either and I'm completely new to spraying as well.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn @jskierko @gatorguy146 all suggestions duly noted. I've been working on my spray technique. For 1,800sqft I fill it up 1.5gal and 2,756sqft I fill it up 2.5gal. It takes me two passes in criss cross directions. I suppose since I didn't cause any harm with Propi, it's a good indicator that I won't mess up too bad. Next year I want to get into that. My local Site One doesn't carry any liquid fert, but a nicer location 20 minutes away does, plus I get off work after they close.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

I'm going to go against the grain and smash granular urea…. Been doing it for 3-4 years now. Can spread as low at 0.5 lbs N per K but I don't, because 1 lb has always worked nicely without spotting.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 I think I'd better get something that doesn't need to get mashed. Maybe Santa (me) will bring a Spreader Mate one of these years.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Stuofsci02 I think I'd better get something that doesn't need to get mashed. Maybe Santa (me) will bring a Spreader Mate one of these years.


Smash…..

I only mash organic ferts…. Need to stay civilized with synthetics….


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Thinking about fertilizing the reno today, even though I did it last Tuesday. I'm trying to get in the habit of splitting the front and back up with everything, since irrigation gets shut off October 10th. I don't have it in me anymore to water .25" the whole yard front and back before work. I'm using 18-24-12 at least one more time. I got about .15" of rain this morning. I don't want to jinx myself, but once again I missed out on the worst of the storm this morning. Has anyone else done a reno that didn't get washed out?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I meant to fertilize today but was beaten by the rain. Will drop the last of 18-24-12 on the reno tomrorow.

I had about twenty minutes after getting home from work to watch the radar. It went from .50" down to .15". I'd rather not fertilize with heavy rain.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I've gotten rain the last three days. I missed my chance to fertilize the reno. So far seed down and last Tuesday I dropped fert.

If you were me, would you mow then drop .50lb N tomorrow and wait two weeks, or do .25lb N tomorrow after mowing and continue on in another 7 days?

I plan on mowing at least 2-3 times this week.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

If it's urea, stick to weekly, AMS you can do double dose every other week.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca oh okay. Good to know. Thank you. I don't have any AMS.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

You may have to find some. As temps drop down urea stops working... kind of
And AMS will give great color response.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca too bad I didn't ask this morning, as I went to Site One after lunchtime. Minus the 46-0-0 and 0-0-50 I based my entire purchases for the season on what was used before.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca local Site Ones seem to be lacking of 21-0-0 AMS. I see that my Ewing Irrigation carries the Best brand. My understanding of water soluble fertilizers is that you can tank mix it or spread it.

Am I okay to spread it around 6-7pm and water it in around 5:30am the next morning without worrying about burning or anything?

If you were me, inexperienced with AMS and tentative, only having done .25#N, would you go .50#N every two weeks to wrap it up? When I use my spreader, after the border passes I stop and make sure my next pass is lined up with the last.


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## Zip-a-Dee-Zee (Apr 9, 2020)

I dropped 0.75# N/M of Greens grade AS in my back yard last Friday. Mostly because I just wanted to see if I could. I noticed a few small areas today that burned, but only in tight spots where I overlapped more than once. I don't have irrigation there either, so if you can water in I wouldn't worry about 0.5# N/M.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Babameca local Site Ones seem to be lacking of 21-0-0 AMS. I see that my Ewing Irrigation carries the Best brand. My understanding of water soluble fertilizers is that you can tank mix it or spread it.
> 
> Am I okay to spread it around 6-7pm and water it in around 5:30am the next morning without worrying about burning or anything?
> 
> If you were me, inexperienced with AMS and tentative, only having done .25#N, would you go .50#N every two weeks to wrap it up? When I use my spreader, after the border passes I stop and make sure my next pass is lined up with the last.


I agree, local Site One to me has not had any 21-0-0 all year.

No problem with AMS sitting on the grass over night. With all granular apps, I try to do it after mowing either same day or the day after. I usually apply late afternoon or early evening and then water it in the next morning. You should not get any burning at .25N-.50N unless you dump a pile in the grass or apply the fertilizer to wet grass (dont do that). Up to you on how you want to apply AMS. I dont think you can go wrong with either approach .25N weekly or .50N every two weeks. Do you want to spread more often or mow more often :lol:


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Zip-a-Dee-Zee greens grade sounds good, that's what I use for SOP.

@ReelWILawn I would never apply to wet grass. My neighbor does that and has burn spots all over. I'll just do the same thing that I do for every other granular app, dial the hopper back to half and do multiple passes. It kind of funny how I bring my 4ft ruler out to measure between the tracks. 😂


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

We win or...we learn. The only way to make this your project is to fail once in a while. Experiment. This is exciting!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca yup.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I went to two Site One's and Ewing Irrigation with no decent 21-0-0. The further Site One has an agronomist who really knows his stuff. The only AMS he had, he said the prill size was so
small, my hopper would barely be opened and worried about getting uneven coverage. I'll have to stick with urea until I can find some online.

Boy has the grass really thickened up! Most of the edges are green now, prior to a mow.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Watch as the thin spots now become your best grass next season...


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 I have a feeling I'll be blown away by next May.

I mowed the back again at 1.50". It was too windy to fertilize so doing it tomorrow. I did order a bag of AMS online, should come by next weekend. I can tell that the grass needs more fertilizer. Next mow by Sunday hopefully.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Looks really good!


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Stuofsci02 said:


> Watch as the thin spots now become your best grass next season...


For the first time I have to agree with you :mrgreen:


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Babameca thank you. I am so glad I bought the Earthwise. Such a clean cut.

I am done watering every day now. Moving to every 2-3 days. Hopefully there will be sufficient rain from here on out, as irrigation gets blown out in less than two weeks (soonest available). I'm anxious for the seed mats to disintegrate, hopefully long before summer. I used the PRS on a small area. I probably won't edge until the soil dries out well enough.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Babameca said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> > Watch as the thin spots now become your best grass next season...
> ...


Meh…. You can still come give my triplex a whirl…


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I fertilized the reno at .25lb N. I'm going to be short with P and K for the year, as I'm doing 46-0-0 next week then 21-0-0 when it comes in the mail later next week.

Im finding it difficult to use it all in the 80# spreader on half a setting. It takes me four passes. I think I'll just have the hopper open on the regular setting and just be careful. Is it normal to still have uneven color after spoon feeding twice? Or is that just the grass at different stages of growth/ maturity? Im guessing the latter as the areas that germinated first are darker and have thicker blades. There is rain Sunday- Monday, so I'll mow at 1.50" either Tuesday or Wednesday, maybe Thursday too, then fertilize Friday.

If this was my second feeding, third counting st seed down, what is an ideal target for #N at the end of the year before my last app in November?

Back yard total:

1.70lb N
.83lb P
2.46lb K
.70lb S 
.42lb Cl


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> Is it normal to still have uneven color after spoon feeding twice? Or is that just the grass at different stages of growth/ maturity? Im guessing the latter as the areas that germinated first are darker and have thicker blades.


100% normal. My renos typically haven't picked up a "uniform" color until the 60-90 day mark. A lot of times it could just be chlorosis and the grass is hungry, but at this stage I'd say you nailed it with the different stages of maturity.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko oh okay that's good. I'm had a feeling once I walked across the lawn and looked at progress pictures. Any chlorosis should be taken care of within the next few spoon feedings I'd imagine.


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## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

Beautiful color. Nice to see a preview of what I might be able to expect over the coming weeks. Great to see the progression of color between younger and more mature grass. It'll even out and keep filling in nicely!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Ben4Birdies 😎 👍🏻


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Lots of rain last night, today and going into late tomorrow. 1/3"'of rain over night and no flooding! One of the thinner areas is looking a lot better, with some time to go. I'd like to get out and work on the trenches.

Since I put additional seed down on/ around September 11, I'm going to wait two more weekends to spray Tenacity. I'd like to play it safe. The backyard fungicide rotation for the rest of the year will include Xzemplar, Cleary's 3336 and Eagle 20EW. Next spring I will not skip out on T-Zone in the backyard. I'm seeing dandelions pop up around the neighborhood. There's not enough time to spray Dimension.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks great.. you are at the rapid fill in stage. Enjoy the ride!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 thank you. Two weeks from now I bet I'll be blown away. I just need other areas to grow to mowing height.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Looks good. I am still on the fence to rush expectations for season end,. Will blow your socks off, next year. Will be hungry and if fed well, will pay you back.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

This is about as good as you could ask for, looks awesome!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko thanks. I couldn't have done it, if not for all of the helpful guidance I received the last few months. Gives me plenty of optimism for a front reno.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Do I need to come over and mow it with the McLane :lol: Truly great work. You had a good gameplan, you listened to others advice and you executed really well. This should give you a lot of confidence if you do a front reno.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile I'd have gotten to it already if not for all this rain. That's what I hate about fall in Michigan. A front reno is definitely in the cards.


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## metzler000 (Aug 27, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> Is it normal to still have uneven color after spoon feeding twice? Or is that just the grass at different stages of growth/ maturity? Im guessing the latter as the areas that germinated first are darker and have thicker blades.


Looks great! The weird thing about my reno I noticed is that the areas that germinated first are the lightest. I'm thinking areas of high water caused my chlorosis. Just a guess though.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@metzler000 that is an interesting observation. Most of my lighter areas are in the middle.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Probably should have let it dry a little bit more, but I carefully edged along the driveway, minus the curved parts. I don’t see myself doing it too often. I wanted to mow but the chance of rain said otherwise. Hopefully I can clean up more edges before the end of the season.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I did end up mowing the back, at 1.50” again. Watering tomorrow and trying to take it down to 1” in a few days. Is it a bad idea to use the McLane on areas with the seed mat? I have a bit of clover in the reno now too.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tomorrow I’m changing the height on the Earthwise down to 1” and mowing the reno. Surely I’ll take more off in other areas that haven’t quite grown as much. First things first though, I will use the Scott’s at 2”, start forming lines for the collars and mowing there maybe every 4-6 days to wrap up the season to let them grow and become easier to see. 

Fertilizing on Friday, watering in Saturday and mowing again on Sunday. I hope to take the McLane on its maiden voyage. I figure I’ll be mowing every 2-3 days max.

I took this picture late last night over by the table, it’s very thick now. Areas like this I am completely blown away with its progress. After this next round of 46-0-0, I am switching to AMS 21-0-0. It has an SGN of 200. I imagine I’ll have the hopper set at 6 and do my standard two passes, but will call the manufacturer to confirm spreader settings.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Mowed the reno today after work. After some adjusting, I got the Earthwise down to 1”. I used the Scott’s at 2” to start forming collars. It goes around every sprinkler head, the smaller area by the family room and where the pop up is around the other side. I may adjust it as time goes on. This is the lowest HOC I have ever done.

Nothing was taken off with the Scott’s, I just wanted to have wheel marks to use as a guide. There are some heads that need to get lowered, but I’ll wait until the spring. I don’t hit them at 1.5”, but want to play it safe and get them closer to 1/4” or so. One head by the family room is higher, only because it butted against the pavers. When the irrigation gets turned on the in the spring, I’m going to slightly move a line and the head, so I can make the curved edging straighter. Now I can do one of those cool golf ball on the lawn shots. Dropping 46-0-0 tomrorow and watering Saturday. @Wile the McLane will see action soon.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Other pictures from earlier. Plus I pulled some KBG that germinated in the flower bed. It has some nice sized roots.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Sweeeeet! Can't wait.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Fertilized the reno, .25lb N of 46-0-0. Watering tomorrow on the last warm day, and plan on mowing before sunset Sunday. 
I see myself giving more nitrogen in the spring and getting phosphorus and potassium done before summer, as needed. 

Backyard total:
1.95lb N
.83lb P
2.46lb K
.70lb S 
.42lb Cl


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The McLane got it’s first mow in at .875”. I used the Scott’s at 2” to do collars but took nothing off yet. I have to clean it up as some lines aren’t straight. After the first few passes were good, I had a few bad turns behind the garage (small ruts). I can see now, that some leveling will need to be done as there are stragglers up close. 

Quite a difference in color. Warmer weather for a few days so I’m spraying Tenacity on Tuesday.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I commented in your other journal about your backyard reno, but I'll put my congrats to you in the appropriate place. Looks fantastic!!!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI thanks again. I was a bit worried that the reel and bed knife was lowered when I took it in, but Wile looked at pictures of the sides and said it looked correct. I’ve never mowed that short so didn’t know if it was correct. Probably will end up getting one of those gauges in the future.

Using the roller as a guide for my passes seems to work well in areas the lawn is thicker. Once the collars grow in, I’ll have an easier time eying where to stop. One spot by the table is a little high and the McLane wouldn’t cut it, so I’m probably going to move the collar outward. I think it was ReelWiLawn who said he mows then spreads fertilizer the same day, so I take it that’s a smart thing to do, save me days in between mowing. After 46-0-0 Thursday, I want to put 21-0-0 down. I’m still contemplating on how much 28-0-3 to put down next month, since it is controlled release (5.60% slow release). It’s what they put down last November and said not to water it in. I’ve read that some people water it in, others don’t and rely on rain. Is .50- .75lb N too much for the last app? I want to spoon feed at least .75lb over the next three weeks first.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Smooth sailing from here.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Chris LI thanks again. I was a bit worried that the reel and bed knife was lowered when I took it in, but Wile looked at pictures of the sides and said it looked correct. I’ve never mowed that short so didn’t know if it was correct. Probably will end up getting one of those gauges in the future.
> 
> Using the roller as a guide for my passes seems to work well in areas the lawn is thicker. Once the collars grow in, I’ll have an easier time eying where to stop. One spot by the table is a little high and the McLane wouldn’t cut it, so I’m probably going to move the collar outward. I think it was ReelWiLawn who said he mows then spreads fertilizer the same day, so I take it that’s a smart thing to do, save me days in between mowing. After 46-0-0 Thursday, I want to put 21-0-0 down. I’m still contemplating on how much 28-0-3 to put down next month, since it is controlled release (5.60% slow release). It’s what they put down last November and said not to water it in. I’ve read that some people water it in, others don’t and rely on rain. Is .50- .75lb N too much for the last app? I want to spoon feed at least .75lb over the next three weeks first.
> View attachment 580


When you say final app next month, do you mean as a final Winterizer app around the time of your last mow? If so, it should be applied at roughly 40F soil temp and the grass should have no significant growth. In this case, 28-5.6=22.4% N. I like to target 0.25-0.67 lb of fast release N for this app, so that would mean applying 1 to 3 lbs of the product per thousand square feet, or 0.28-0.84 lb of total N. If concerned about the environmental aspects and leaching, as newer research does, go on the lower half of that range, since very little N can be taken up at that time of year, and some it may go to waste.

I have actually used the previous version of this exact product for my final app once, years ago. I probably still have a tiny bit left over in a bag! It definitely needs to be watered in. Time with rain ideally. There are better product choices, though, for the future, such as Scotts Green Max 27-0-2. The difference is methylene urea (slow release sparingly soluble N) versus PCU (controlled release coated N). PCU is not going to do much of anything until Spring. Methylene urea will continue to trickle a very small amount of N out (e.g. 0.05 lb per week) until about Christmas or New Year's depending on temps and rainfall, stop for Winter, and then pick up again in March...giving you the earliest possible green-up next Spring.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Green yes, after what I think is the last mow of the season (aside from cleanup). My best guess is NLT middle of November, but I know it can change. I may opt for the higher amount (at least .50lbs), since I didn’t get as much N down as I should have. For future reference, what would be a better product to use for the last one of the year? So I can annotate for future use.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Green yes, after what I think is the last mow of the season (aside from cleanup). My best guess is NLT middle of November, but I know it can change. I may opt for the higher amount (at least .50lbs), since I didn’t get as much N down as I should have. For future reference, what would be a better product to use for the last one of the year? So I can annotate for future use.


I just edited my post above to clarify what product I like, and a few other details. I currently use Green Max for this, personally. It also has some AMS in it, which works better in cold temps.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Green got it, thanks. I took a screen shot so I can read up on it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Green got it, thanks. I took a screen shot so I can read up on it.


The AMS component is another helpful difference. So is the greens grade prill size. I got a few of the other CT guys using it for Fall now, as well.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

This is looking really good! You will be surprised that it will continue to spread and fill in until about the end of this month. But coverage looks good and just remember a KBG reno takes a full year. Next year in the month of June this is going to look fantastic. Just keep feeding it for the next couple of weeks.


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## michigreender (4 mo ago)

Great job in this reno. I'm in Michigan too and am taking notes


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn thanks. I mean, minus the fudge up of actually mowing way too low, it’s looking good. Shop moved the roller for who knows what reason. HOC was actually .375” 😳. I’ve been growing KBG to use as plugs in the spring, on the left side and the way back.

@michigreender thanks. There’s plenty of what not to do in my reno journal.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Checked out the backyard, there doesn’t look to be any stress from the other day. Grass measures about 1/2”.

I fertilized .25lb N on last Friday and need to get another app in before the frost. The plan tomorrow is for .55lb N. Is that overdoing it? It will have been three weeks since Headway G was put down, so I am going to spray Xzemplar as well, in case the short cut brought about any disease. I have to rotate as 3 and 11 were my last two apps. At the same time, would spraying MicroGreene have any benefit, to give the grass a little shot of iron OR would it best to wait?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I wasn’t sure if my intended target of .55lb N was a safe bet given how much had gone down in the last month. So I did .30lb/ 1k. To help with any possible fungus issues, I put down the last of the Cleary’s 3336 DG Lite. I only did about 1.95lb/ 1k instead of 3lb/ 1k. That should be good for about a week or so. I ran out of daylight and didn’t want to spray Xzemplar since it’s cooling down a bit by the time it would dry. I’ll probably spray it by next weekend. I’m spraying Tenacity next Tuesday since rain is in the forcast for Wednesday/ Thursday. 

Not long after I started, I got a call that I would be off work for the rest of the week (auto parts shortage). Ford likes to wait until the last minute to send out mass communications. Had it been any earlier I would have done what my intial plan was. It looks like I’m going to aim for anywhere from .50-.75lb of 28-0-3 next month, unless it’s warm enough for AMS in a week. 

Should the top short mow hold up with the frost, even without additional fertilizer this month, I’m going to call it a successful-ish reno for me. Lots of mistakes were made along the way but it looks good enough to build upon next year. 

Back yard total:

2.25lb N
.83lb P
2.46lb K
.70lb S 
.42lb Cl


Sunday will be 60 DAS, with the weather trending downward, do I still have time to order and apply Prodiamine? Does it matter how much Dimension I sprayed in the spring? Lastly, what rate should I aim for? I’m buying the smallest container available and will stick with Dimension for next year (minus front reno). Does my spring application of Dimension need to get modified or
stick with the appropriate timeframe and rate?


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I put down a 3 month rate of prodiamine on the reno 10/28 and it was fine. My average first frost is some time within the next week, for reference.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 good point of reference. I’ll see if Site One has some or I’ll order from DMO tomorrow. Label says it can be applied at 21-24oz/ AI after soil temperature falls below 50° so I should be fine. I haven’t noticed any new weeds pop up.

Thanks to my obsessive nature, I spotted what I’m 99% sure were sod webworm/ armyworm on the reno. I threw down BioAdvanced 24 Grub Killer at 1.33lb/ 1k before calling it a night. I may reapply in 7-10 days or spray Bifen. Finding two in a small area about 1sqft was enough for me to want to do it. I’ve seen what armyworms can do to a reno and I’ll have no part of it. This is despite my rule of no walking on dew covered grass. Watering deeply in the morning.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The collars will need a mow tomorrow evening, but everything else is still too short to mow. Maybe next weekend? It looks like 1/2” in some spots, but better the further away from the house, as it’s probably more level. I think Xzemplar would be fine to spray on the reno within two weeks, since I went from 3&11 in August and September, then went to FRAC 1 the other day (only enough for less than 2lb/ 1k). If I put down Fame afterwards, I’ll just stick with Eagle 20EW to wrap it up. The insecticide granules haven’t fully dissolved yet.

MSU Extension said one insect is a cutworm and followed up with this: “Im not certain of the species from the picture. It could be an armyworm. If you're only finding a few of these, I would not be concerned for the lawn health. Again, this might be an incidental caterpillar (like the one in your other questsion). Even if it is an armyworm, they do not spend the winter in MI and will die when a freeze arrives.” I put down insecticide because I didn’t want to risk it.

I was too tired to raise the roller on the McLane but will by the end of the weekend hopefully. The color on the mowed short areas is coming back as you can see. Right by the driveway collar it is probably too low, hence more of a scalping effect. I will redo the collar along the cement by the table, to have one push mower width wrapped around the sprinkler and leave the two slabs by the side of the garage open so I’ll start with the reel mower there. But I will when to let part of it grow out and then gradually lower another spot so I can cut below 1”. 

































Here is some progress of one area filling in slowly:

September 25








Today


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Playing around with the photo editor from an old aerial picture, my plan for next year is to make the collars 18” in width with the Earthwise and try to curve them out. Then straighten up the flowerbed by the family room, taking some plugs to fill in during the spring. Then once irrigation gets turned back on, move the head closest to the family room (line too?) so it doesn’t hit the cone flowers (overwatered from reno). I prefer to have as much of the flowerbed straight as possible to go with the flow. Then use a laser to cut off and straighten various points around the edge of the lawn.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The backyard is recovering just fine. I took this picture earlier. I watered four times to get 1.54”. Letting it dry out tomorrow so I can mow the collars. The last watering was Friday and I’ll let it go until either Tuesday or Wednesday.

With my job, there is a rotating schedule and on days I am designated an extra, if there are no open jobs I can elect to go home. Sure I lose a days pay, but if it means I can get home before the sun comes up and drop AMS and water right away, it’s worth it. The Prodiamine came in the mail today. I’ll have to read the label to figure out the three month rate. @Wile I see you’re looking into doing a HOC reset next year. If you’re looking for someone to scalp your lawn, I’m a pro at it 😂. There was no frost this morning as was predicted, so I got out of it unscathed.Tomorrow I’m mowing the collars and letting the rest of it grow out a few more days, use the Earthwise once then McLane til the finish line hopefully.

I can’t wait for this to fill in next year. I really
like the height difference and look forward to playing around until I get it just right. More than anything, I like the idea of not having to overseed the back every single year.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Please come over and scalp my lawn. My wife will love you for it. I’ll provide food and drinks of choice.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Quick push mow of the collars at 1.75” (says 2”). I still have to gradually lower it to 1” in one spot and raise it in another to collar height.

My last ditch seeding efforts around the edges didn’t germinate last month. If I can transplant some plugs in April, 5-8 of them in total it should fill in hopefully. Half of raised flower bed is PRG for the front in case of winter kill and the rest is the SS1100 seed. I can probably get 10 plugs from there of KBG and another 6-8 from the edge I’m extending the flower bed out next spring. Most of that is really thick already. I’m not too sure about the effectiveness of dormant seeding KBG, but it’s worth a try

The spots where it dips a little, the grass is anywhere from .50”-.75”, so I have a little while to go. I’ll work on the McLane until I know it’s at .875”, and let it grow to1” in height before using it. So the next two mows this coming week I’m just going to work on forming the collars and get the borders to how I want them. There’s only been 1/8”-1/4” of growth on the low mowed areas, but no thinning or dead spots so that’s a plus. If I can leave work early enough, I’ll drop AMS at .25lb N. If not, just spray Prodiamine and humic acid on Tuesday after work.There’s rain coming in on Wednesday/ Thursday which should help. Is there a reason why Site One says “to water in AMS immediately”? Is that just because average homeowners don’t know better and seldom irrigate after fertilizer? Is there really any harm in spoon feeding AMS around 6:00pm and watering in at 4:00am the next morning?

I have fallen behind with pulling weeds around the trenches.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I have to say, coming home early afternoon this is my favorite thing to see walking into the backyard. I wish I had the energy to pull the grass that germinated out of the flower bed. All of the annuals were pulled out yesterday and I’m not dead heading the hostas, lilies or coneflowers for a few weeks. The rose bushes I have to figure out the proper height to cut. I’m surprised by the amount of blooms they have gotten the last few weeks. Pre-emergent tomrorow after work, followed by a light watering Wednesday morning and letting the rain get the rest.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Haha.. you got me with that picture of the video. I pressed play at least 3 times before realizing it was just an image. Well done!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Stuofsci02 haha. I didn’t even think of that. Butthole invited all of his squirrel friends over. The brown, black and gray squirrels have seemingly formed a coupe to harass me. Maybe once my lawn gets up to par I can post videos on YouTube. I made a channel last year just to see if I could get any views, or a “what not to do”. 

Thank you. My reno wouldn’t even be half as good if not for all of the invaluable advice I received the last few months. I’m in cruise control now, pre-em, Fame (need to combat early MO?), maybe AMS (probably not), work on the trenches and a winterizer to wrap it up. I’m dreading waking up stupid early to water for the last few weeks.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I wish I had the energy to pull the grass that germinated out of the flower bed.


Some gly and a straight edge (cardboard to protect your lawn) should do the trick if you don't feel like pulling it. Might take a little longer with the temps dropping down, but it'll die off.



Jeff_MI84 said:


> I’m surprised by the amount of blooms they have gotten the last few weeks.


I actually thought the same thing about my rosebushes over the past weekend. Literally fertilized them once early in the season but something about this season has had them going gangbusters. Tons of new buds/young flowers on mine even going into October.



Jeff_MI84 said:


> I’m dreading waking up stupid early to water for the last few weeks.


Get yourself a compressor, watch some videos, save some $ over the long haul, and operate your system on your schedule


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko it’s like 50/50 close to the edge or where I’ll have to redig with a shovel. Probably pull and glypho. I fertilized the rose bushes two times since I planted them. They must really like the cooler temps. It’ll be a shame when I cut them down. Never seen how long it takes to regrow in the spring, but it was fun. Maybe after next season I’ll give it a whirl blowing the system out myself. $46 to have someone do it, which isn’t bad. I consider myself a visual learner, which is why I wish they came and did it while I was home. I can watch several videos and figure it out, but watching someone else do it makes it easier.


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## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I consider myself a visual learner, which is why I wish they came and did it while I was home. I can watch several videos and figure it out, but watching someone else do it makes it easier.


💯... I took pictures of everything the last time I had mine blown out. Which valves are closed, backflow orientation, etc. Not all systems are set up the same, so there is definitely a certain amount of individualization to closing out your system.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@jskierko I usually ask workers like that if it’s okay if I stand behind and film them so I don’t forget. A combination of telling them I want to learn and play dumb, but at the same time I can see the right way for my setup.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Really want to spray on the reno but I’m dealing with 16mph wind. I feel as though a preventative is needed for MO on some spots I’ve been watching. I called Syngenta to talk Prodiamine and Tenacity. The gentleman recommended to avoid Prodiamine since the grass is still recovering and to spray Tenacity instead. His reason being that winter weeds would have come along already (what I’ve seen pop up), but stressing it out further wouldn’t be beneficial.

I may wait for the wind to die down, then spray Tenacity in the backyard. Since Heritage is a systemic fungicide, I will wait until tomorrow afternoon and spray it, since there are late pm showers between .25”-.50” expected. The Tenacity won’t be able to dry fully before tonight’s rain though.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I missed my window with a pre-emergent. But everything will have already germinated. Mo new weeds have emerged. In April I am spraying Dimension because I don’t have dandelions or crabgrass emerge. I will do a split app in April/ May then Prodiamine in September. For the front reno in Aug ‘23, I will spray a split app the same and make sure I stick to Tenacity at 30 DAS and Dimension at 60 DAS. 

I ended up spraying Heritage SC on the reno at the curative rate of .80oz- 1k. The last few days it was a toss up between GLS and MO. Plus I found a single blade of RT. In three weeks I will spray Propiconazole. YTD this is what it looks like. Next year I need to incorporate Cleary’s 3336 and Xzemplar more into the rotation. The last three Azoxystrobin’s were 30+ days apart on the reno. 

Fungicides Frac YTD May until today:
F 3/11 B 3/11
F 3 B 3
F 1 B 11
F 1 B 3/11
F 3/11 B 3/11
F 7 B -
F 1 B 1
F 11 B 11

Rest of the year:
F 3 B 3 PPZ
F 3 B 3 Eagle 20EW

On a positive note, I see that the aeration holes where seed germinated, they are filled in. Along the side fence where seed didn’t take in September, I have found tillering! Maybe I won’t have to plug as much in the spring.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I called Syngenta to talk Prodiamine and Tenacity. The gentleman recommended to avoid Prodiamine since the grass is still recovering and to spray Tenacity instead. His reason being that winter weeds would have come along already (what I’ve seen pop up), but stressing it out further wouldn’t be beneficial.


I see the benefit of putting down a post emergent this late in the season vs pre, but how is Tenacity not stressful for the turf? It's an herbicide.

I used pre emergents and Tenacity (low rates) in late fall and it was OK. But I find that statement from the Syngenta rep odd because in my experience, Tenacity causes more stress to the lawn than prodiamine does. In fact, I've never noticed any harm after using prodiamine.

Maybe I'm crazy!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

bf7 said:


> I see the benefit of putting down a post emergent this late in the season vs pre, but how is Tenacity not stressful for the turf? It's an herbicide.
> 
> I used pre emergents and Tenacity (low rates) in late fall and it was OK. But I find that statement from the Syngenta rep odd because in my experience, Tenacity causes more stress to the lawn than prodiamine does. In fact, I've never noticed any harm after using prodiamine.
> 
> Maybe I'm crazy!


I usually fallow the advice of a rep. You do make a lot of sense. With this type of weather, when is best to do it?


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Sorry I didn't mean to say that you should put down something (or not put down something). I've just never heard anyone say Tenacity doesn't put stress on the grass. I guess it makes sense that it would come from a Syngenta person...

If growth is done or near done, there is a risk of taking a bleached / weakened lawn into winter. I didn't want you to think there is zero downside.

I'm sure you are fine putting down either product in mid October especially at low rates. Better to attack poa a while it's immature. You could stagger a few apps at 2 oz/acre rather than a full dosage at once. Don't sweat it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 my mistake. I misread your comment. Thinking about it, I think he misspoke and meant not to put Tenacity down because it was too short at the time, being a herbicide. I really don’t want to do Tenacity now, since bleaching is possible and people say 2-3 weeks for it to go away. I haven’t mowed the reno since last weekend as I watered several days straight to push growth and recovery. The collars have grown just less than .25” and the rest, maybe .25”-.30” since. I have maybe four weeks left and would hate to have a weakened lawn especially if it’s dry this winter. I will shoot for Prodiamine by next week. I’m mowing tomorrow and if I can take anything off, recovery is good.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I went through these same mental gymnastics 2 years ago. There is a lot of debate out there in terms of dealing with reno weeds now or in the spring. I spent many hours reading and worrying about it. Ultimately I ended up putting down the products, granted it was unseasonably warm at the time. I think I stressed myself out more than I did the grass. What sold me - some people saying that young poa is MUCH easier to kill than poa that has overwintered. In spring 2021, there were a ton of cool season threads about poa outbreaks, yet I had very little in my yard. Was my prodiamine and Tenacity responsible for that? Who knows, but I was glad I put them down. 

I looked back at my 2020 journal - this is what I did:

10/28 - prodiamine (3 month) and Tenacity (2oz/a with NIS)
11/6 - Tenacity (2oz/a with NIS)

I had very little bleaching on the KBG at these rates. All the details are in my journal. I'm not suggesting that you should do this. Just a point of reference. But if you have a month of growth left, I would not rule out the possibility of fall weed germination. 

Bottom line, prodiamine and Tenacity are both herbicides and there are risks associated with both if not applied correctly. I hear that prodiamine is a "root pruner" and inhibits spreading, but I don't have first hand proof to support that. I've been using it regularly for 2 years and my KBG fills in great. Perhaps it would spread faster if I didnt use prodiamine. I don’t know, but I don't have many weeds.

Hand pulling works too!


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 if it’s warm enough I’m going to spray.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The reno is in need of a good watering tomorrow. Plus there is rain expected after midnight. Two of the thinnest spots are filling in as time goes on. Mowing Sunday. The spot by the flamingo, I’m taking down to 1.5”, then 1” the following mow, just so it can be even with the middle. Right by the sprinkler in the corner, that is where the collar will start alongside the garage. Growth has slowed down and will continue as temperatures dip down into the upper 30’s for a morning low until next weekend. This gives me plenty of time to maintain 1.75” around the edges and keep the rest of it around the 1” mark. I might finish the season at 1.75” and 1”. Going into spring, keep the same height until the end of April and have 2.50” and .875”, before trying 2.50” and 1” with the Earthwise in June, July and August. In the summer I usually mow twice a week and can handle three times a week in the back (maybe a forth time for the collars).


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Got up early to water the reno. I’m seeing what resembles YP because of the appearance of Olympic Rings. Reading up on it, CSBP (if that is indeed what it is) goes away when it warms and dries up but Propiconazole can treat it. This is more along the edges in the back. Probably not the best airflow or light this time of year. Having sprayed Azoxystrobin a few nights ago, I still need to hold off. I applied that because of what is shown. The thinner areas have more of this going on.

I don’t have any pictures, but I had seen a few blades where it looked blotchy as in yellowing of the blade but the middle was still green with circular spots. I want to ID if I have iron deficiency, N deficiency or just spotty fert in a few areas. I read that lack of iron is a top down yellowing and N deficiency is a yellow bottom up telltale sign.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Without any major disease I would attribute it to hungry grass I think. What are you using for feeding?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> View attachment 1706
> 
> View attachment 1710
> 
> ...





uts said:


> Without any major disease I would attribute it to hungry grass I think. What are you using for feeding?


The last app of 46-0-0 was on the 6th.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

With warmer temps next later next week I do plan on spraying Prodiamine. Next September I will spray it once soil temperatures are down to 70°. I want to mow twice by next weekend. I am tempted to drop .20lb N but with MO probably should not unless I got it in time. Walked around and felt the middle of the lawn. It’s looking better height wise.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> The last app of 46-0-0 was on the 6th.


Problem with spreading urea is the uneven distribution. If you have AMS, use that or spray urea and see if you see an improvement.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I think it's DS and lack of fertility. I agree with spraying urea at low rates 0.1 lbs N/M or less. A light wash off the leaves the next morning should reduce the amount of moisture added (it looks wet). Overall, it looks great and will definitely be a winner, come spring.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI not sure why DS didn’t occur to me to be it. At first I thought DS and tried to compare it to picture online. Reading about yellow patch and the “looks like Olympic Rings” made me second guess. Cleary’s went down 1.5 weeks ago. I like the few days of warmer weather, but is Prodiamine, Propi and fert the same day too much? Propiconazole is next. I was already planning on the 1oz rate, but maybe 2oz now. 

Aside from less light during the day, those pictures were taken in the far back corner and behind the garage that had the least/ slowest germination.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

uts said:


> Problem with spreading urea is the uneven distribution. If you have AMS, use that or spray urea and see if you see an improvement.


I have AMS. No hopper setting suggestion on the label. I always do two passes at half setting. My greens grade SOP is SGN 150 with setting of 9 with my Lesco (I do 4.5). The AMS I have has an SGN of 200, I’m guessing setting 12 (6 with two passes) is sufficient. I’ll have to spread before dark and water in the AM, later in the week.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> I have AMS. No hopper setting suggestion on the label. I always do two passes at half setting. My greens grade SOP is SGN 150 with setting of 9 with my Lesco (I do 4.5). The AMS I have has an SGN of 200, I’m guessing setting 12 (6 with two passes) is sufficient. I’ll have to spread before dark and water in the AM, later in the week.


This is lesco 21-0-0 sgn 240 label. Rate of 1lb of N per 1k. If you can water in I would be shy and put down the 1lb rate. Fall applied AMS is very stable doesn't leech and will be available in spring.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@uts i was looking for that exact fertilizer. Apparently it is not sold in Michigan by Site One, because nobody ever orders it. I had to go with APF N. Rich from Seed World. Around here, when asking for AMS you get funny looks. Watering about .25” the following morning after applying sound good?


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @uts i was looking for that exact fertilizer. Apparently it is not sold in Michigan by Site One, because nobody ever orders it. I had to go with APF N. Rich from Seed World. Around here, when asking for AMS you get funny looks. Watering about .25” the following morning after applying sound good?


Yup 0.25" should be enough, if there is already too much moisture on the ground. If you need/can water, I would put down 0.4". AMS just has a higher salt index so more prone to burning so I'm more cautious. I have no study to back up what the optimum amount is.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@uts thanks. I don’t water after 10 AM, even this time of year. I have just enough time to water about 1/3” before work. Either four zones in the front and hand water the side, or five zones in the back. But that’s getting up around 3:30-3:45. Sucks when I don’t get home until 4:30-5:00 in the afternoon. I planned to water as deep as time allows.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Quick mow of the reno. Barely took anything off of the collars and the rest seems to be teetering around .70”, so nothing was cut. Several spots like this in the first picture. Dead brown blades of grass, no lesions down in the canopy, not sitting up top. It’s a toss up between dead clippings I didn’t blow off or the dead grass from glypho (loose enough to pull by hand). I don’t think it’s disease unless anyone thinks otherwise. There are other spots that I can ID dollar spot. There are several days of rain in the forecast so I’m waiting to spray Propiconazole, probably at 1.5oz/ 1k. I hope it doesn’t slow the grass growth too much. Dropping AMS, irrigation+ rainfall and a few days of warmer temps hopefully will help.









































































In a few days I plan on taking the second pass down from 1.75” to 1”.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Looking great! This will look awesome in the spring! The cool thing about renos in the fall is that they seem to stay green all winter long the first year (at least in my area). I'm curious how it will go for you in a colder climate.


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

Looking really good! Love seeing the hard work and patience paying off. Absolutely love your landscaping with the evergreens and the lights in between them by the privacy fence. Might have to steal that idea for myself


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Chris LI thanks man, I appreciate it. The side reno was almost all green by last Thanksgiving. Then again I’m sure KBG holds out longer than TTTF. Although I expect some desiccation.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@gatorguy146 thank you. I can’t wait for the arborvitae to fill in some more. Those lights I bought on Amazon. They’re okay. If you knock into them, the pegs often break off the steak and it’s a PITA. I might want something better.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Saw this as soon as I stepped outside. Popped up over night. I’m in between rain right now, too wet to spray Propiconazole and there’s more rain in bound. Will try to spray in the morning at 2oz rate, but it will be 38°.

Edit: it’ll be too cold the next few days. Plus freezing temps Friday morning. So I’m going to spread AMS at .25lb N and spray Propi at 2oz/ 1k rate after work Friday. It’ll be a nice 40°/ 70° weekend. Good temps for one final push.

Even though pressure is at 1% for DS, that’s what it looks like. Only thing I did was use the push mower (I sprayed and wiped down before, maybe needs a sharpening). Then again, even though this is isolated to about 1sqft, I wonder if I shouldn’t have mowed since it was 38° this morning and low 50’s last night. Not worried but I’d like to spray to play it safe and treat the problem in the two back corners.
View attachment 1930


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

it's been fun checking in on this reno. You've done a good job and this time of the year I think it's safe to call this a success


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn thank you sir. I’d say there are 3-4 weeks left max. Fight off this fungus issue, unless it goes dormant until the spring, then it’ll be a success. I’m already planning out how much N for next year, fungicide rotation and trying to find sand.


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Check the hometown folder. I found some sand suppliers near you I think. Everything looks great and I wouldn't worry too much about the fungus pressures, but a little cheap insurance isn't bad either.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

good suggestion from @Wile reagarding sand.

Yup, same here. Grass is probably on the downward trend at the moment and these colder temps are accelerating that. I might do maybe one more application for the year (foliar - I am done with granular) with 1/10 lb of N, potassium phosphite, and possibly iron. But once the season ends, I had a lot of fun and very busy off season last year. Planning out the next year, researching topics, reading labels, procuring products, having my mower serviced, etc. November-March is a busy time and helps for the next upcoming season


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Wile said:


> Check the hometown folder. I found some sand suppliers near you I think. Everything looks great and I wouldn't worry too much about the fungus pressures, but a little cheap insurance isn't bad either.


Some of the “mason” sand advertised in Westland/ Livonia has too many rocks and other debris. That or it’s play sand. I thought I heard that there was USGA sand around Macomb or Oakland County. Probably a golf course type of phone call.

With all of this cold weather and rain, I’d hate hate hate to have a last minute thing ruin a successful reno. So Propi just in case. It’s like the Red Wings going into the third period with a two goal lead with my reno in late October. Either I’ll squeak by with a W or blow it with a minute left. 😂

I watched CW’s newest video yesterday. I’m shocked he mows at .40” now. Then again, he probably didn’t take 2/3 of the blade off.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn luckily the McLane doesn’t need servicing, just the Toro, edger and leaf vacuum. I may look into getting a new chain so I can raise the HOC if I want. Too bad I don’t have a heated garage, otherwise I’d go out there and tinker with it. I have enough starter fertilizer, 46-0-0, 0-0-50, liquid and granular fungicides and biostims on hand. 

Mentally making notes on different requirements for N in the back versus the front. I set a goal of 4-4.5lb N on the back next year. Plus actually hitting P and K recommendations. Dimension label says you can max out at 3 apps of .73oz/ 1K per season. I may just do split apps in April/ May of .37oz and .38oz then a full .73oz in September. Stay on top of T-Zone on the reno and just hand pull the rest. I also might do an irrigation audit again. I don’t know if it’s possible, but look into getting the sprinkler heads closest to the house on their own zone (water less with more shade). Installation company’s solution was just manually shut it off with the screwdriver or key.

The only thing I’m going to need next year, is to figure out how much seed I will need for the front reno. 80/20 blend. I have about 2.79lb left of the SS1100, so either buy another 10 lb of the same (if available) and keep it just in case, or get a pound each of Mazama and Bluebank. There’s only 1326sqft to seed. I thought about doing just Mazama for KBG, given the shade I have. Then again, between the Bluebank, Mazama and Midnight, the first two have four stars for shade. There’s some older Shamrock on there now.

Even though Amity TTTF can be cut short, with the shade that’s not a good idea. So probably rotary mow at 2.50” the whole season minus end of June thru end of August, that way I never have to take ‘er down notches (like I’m waiting to do with the front STILL).


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Looking at the reno today, I can tell it’s needing nitrogen. More yellowish spots and blades of the shorter cut turf look thinner than where it’s over 1” in height. On Friday I plan on dropping .30lb/ 1k of AMS, along with 1.5o/ 1k of Propi. After that there will be four days of warmer weather ahead. It’s been cold and wet.

Same spot 9/27 around 1.5” and today still recovering and around .70”- .75”. Aside from
some fungal issues, is my assumption correct that the difference is lack of color and vigor from being shorter, splotchy from urea recovery AND needing fertilizer? It’s been two weeks since I applied anything. For some reason I thought because of the cooling weather I was done feeding until the winterizer. Plus I only dropped .30lb N this month and 1lb N since germination (1.25lb N since seed down). Probably short anywhere from .50lb N upward of . Would you do more than .30lb N of AMS? Winterizer would be at most 4 weeks from now.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Looking at the picture it does look alittle underfed. .30lb N is enough. I would personally skip the winterizer and make up for any nitrogen deficiency early next spring with spoon feeding for this reno.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@SNOWBOB11 if weather is good enough next week, I may spoon feed more as well. 

I’m already thinking about next year. Unless it’s better to try and get more in April (weather permitting), my target for the reno in 2023 is 4.5lb N.

April .50lb
May 1lb
Aug .50lb
Sep 1lb
Oct 1lb
Nov .50lb


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I think your plan looks good.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

New personal best/ worst water bill for three months. Thankfully the season is almost over.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Sprinkle some navy showers into your routine and you can bring that bill down next year. The grass needs it more than you 😁


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 no more navy showers. Eight years was enough. Normally for three months during the season, my bill is around $220-$250 so I guess I can splurge once a year. Our rates went up, because a city next to/ part of Detroit didn’t pay their bill for several years. So the suburbs have to pay for it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Spread .33lb N of 46-0-0. I found the AMS but figured with limited light it would be quicker to use the open bag as I know how much weight with urea. .66lb N on the reno for the month of October. I may opt for .34lb N next weekend to get an even pound this month and finish off with at least .28lb winterizer to get 3.20lb for the year, but I’ll see. Counting seed down, the reno has gotten 1.58lb N. 

Back yard total:

2.58 N
.83lb P
2.46lb K
.70lb S 
.42lb Cl


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Turns out the battery wasn’t properly seated. Sprayed .50oz/ 1k of Propiconazole. It took me four passes compared to the normal three because I had to use the light from the family room and garage. I walked too fast admittingly. Since it was the low rate and I didn’t tank mix, I may spray again on Halloween and push back the Eagle 20EW for the last app. Next fertilizer app will be AMS.


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## kdn (Aug 26, 2020)

Your N target for next year looks good but I think in the first year you should bump up the spring apps. You could target 5.5lb - 6lb and use that bit extra in spring.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@kdn its more or less the minimum amount I thought would suffice, with green up, pre-em timing and weather. April here is a funny month.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I miss having the ability to irrigate via the push of a button. Little over 4.5 hours dragging the hose around this morning. Probably good timing with the Propi last night. Hard to see, but there’s some yellowing tips in the blotchy spots. I did not observe any mycelium this morning.


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## kdn (Aug 26, 2020)

In the blotchy/lighter spots do a test section and apply N through AMS. It looks hungry to me so this would be a safe way to check.

Add 20g AMS to a litre of water and spray over a 3ft * 3ft section for roughly 1lb of N.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@kdn AMS going down next week, get some better coverage.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Not enough time or energy to mow the reno today. It looked good yesterday evening. This strip will get mowed down to 1” within the coming days, right by the side garage door. It will be where I bring the reel mower over.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

for next year, if I could make a suggestion it would be to take a look at Pace Turf's climate appraisal. It will give you a good idea, based on your climate and historical weather data, what months provide optimal growth for cool season growth thus what your monthly nutrient targets may be. You might be surprised with the results.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@ReelWILawn I forget who, but somebody mentioned that before. I glanced at the website and saved it somewhere. I would really like to get the most out of my applications next year. 

Isn’t it true, that you want to feed the lawn after the seed head flush since it looks a little weak from using all that energy to produce seed heads?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Uneven coverage and maybe not enough water. It’s been hard to water enough using a hose end sprinkler. Most of the lawn is 1” now. Prodiamine at .10oz/ 1k rate. Took me three passes, I guess that’s the standard now. Rain expected and watering with the hose in the morning. One of Ford’s suppliers went bankrupt, which means no brake lines for trucks. So I’m off til Monday. The Bronco production line still has to work. 😄

Mowing Thursday and will spray MicroGreene on Sunday with rain the following Monday. Aside from another Propiconazole application and one Eagle 20EW along with winterizer, that’ll be it aside from mowing.









This is my favorite spot. I have been caught many times feeling the grass at night.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

When it comes to taking late low-light pictures, I’m practically The Wiz! (Seinfeld/ NY/ NJ reference).


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @ReelWILawn I forget who, but somebody mentioned that before. I glanced at the website and saved it somewhere. I would really like to get the most out of my applications next year.
> 
> Isn’t it true, that you want to feed the lawn after the seed head flush since it looks a little weak from using all that energy to produce seed heads?


I would suggest to review your climate appraisal over the winter. It’s a fun/interesting topic to review and will give you an idea what the ideal growth months are for your area and suggest appropriate nitrogen rates and timing. I cannot speak to nutrient replacement after seed head production as I am not informed in the matter; however, the climate appraisal can serve as a guide for next years planning


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

ReelWILawn said:


> I would suggest to review your climate appraisal over the winter. It’s a fun/interesting topic to review and will give you an idea what the ideal growth months are for your area and suggest appropriate nitrogen rates and timing. I cannot speak to nutrient replacement after seed head production as I am not informed in the matter; however, the climate appraisal can serve as a guide for next years planning


@ReelWILawn I always figured May and September were the best growth months, but I bet once I check out the appraisal I’ll be wrong.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Woke up early to irrigate in between the rain. Just over .50” total to get the Prodiamine down. Backyard spigot has some clogging or something going on. Normally I should get side to side coverage with my oscillating sprinkler but it’s not reaching as far.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Not enough time to mow the reno today. Tomorrow I’m mowing at a higher setting. Then spraying MicroGreene and AMS at .22lb/ 1k. That’ll only get me to 2.80lb/ 1k. Most of it will be wasted but I want to increase the total N. It looks darkest by the house due to overcast shade. I’m considering leaving the third hole open from now on when I do the border passes so it’s not so concentrated. Some spots by the arborvitae fence line look lighter due to that grass germinating later and not as tall or thick/ mature as well as some unevenness in grade. The center was the last to germinate. Also, along the rose bushes, there seemed to be the worst of the damping off/ melting out. Slow to recover and it is the main spot that needs leveling. There is also a spot by the pop up that is struggling. It should fill in eventually. Probably the reason for color differential. Quite a color difference overhead between the taller and short grass, but not noticeable from ground level. Due to the shape of the yard, it is pretty difficult to get an even spread as the width isn’t ideal. Maybe spraying fertilizer is the answer for more even coverage? That way if I spray into the mulch it won’t matter.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tank sprayer battery was being a pain again. Just mowed the reno at 2.75” on the collars and 1” every where else. Lots of clippings on the collars and a small amount everywhere else. First time I really cut anything since the accidental scalping. I wonder how it would have turned out had I actually checked the height. In some spots the weeds are getting choked out, so that’s a plus.

Spent some time sucking up leaves and deadheading. In total, I still have about a half dozen perennials and about 9 hostas left to cut down. Five yard waste bags this week of mostly leaves. It annoys me when neighbors leave big piles out in the street that inevitably blow down my way.

Didn’t have any daylight left to spread AMS. Plan was for .22lb/ 1K and can’t do it in the morning because of the dew. Glad I reread an earlier comment saying not to fertilize wet grass. Thinking I’ll do .42lb/ 1K in a few weeks for winterizer, so I can hit 3lb N on the year ( and .25lb in the front).


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Little bit of pooling while running the oscillating sprinkler. I ran for 25 minutes, so it is t obvious when the sprinkler system is running in 2-3 cycles. About .42” in that amount of time, but within 3-4 minutes after I shut it off the pooling went away. That was with temps around 40°.

I had to water today to get 1” on the week. Tomorrow could see .30”, but who knows. If that’s the case, I’ll irrigate later in the week when it rains Saturday. This coming week sees lows in mid 40’s-low 50’s and highs in the upper 60’s which seems warmer than normal. If it stays relative to those temps, I will still try to get anywhere from .80”-1” of irrigation, as time allows.

Had a close encounter with a possum and saw the stray cat almost get sprayed by a skunk. That was my entertainment while watering in the fog.


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## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

@Jeff_MI84 Do you think the 1” per week of water really applies this time of year? Obviously there’s so much to consider about the whole watering thing.

My soil type has so much clay that if I had water pooling, it would make the yard incredibly soggy. (I wouldn’t be able to mow for multiple days without creating ruts.) Plus the lower temperatures mean much less is lost from evaporation.

Because of my soil, I’ve been tending to err on the side of being a bit dry rather than make sure I get an inch of water every week.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Ben4Birdies yeah you’re right about a lot to consider. I can probably just rely on the rain at this point this week. Highs in the 60’s heading into November, .33” (if that) is probably pushing it. I know that once the average night time temps are in the 30’s then stop and it’s looking to be a week away. Last year I was done watering in October because it rained several times a week and it threw me off this year. 

That spot it was pooling, I noticed it last weekend when I watered but didn’t think much of it, as it is the only spot I’ve seen it happen (didn’t level it).


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## Wile (Sep 17, 2020)

Looking really good! I did my climate appraisal form this year and was surprised that I had better growth potential in May/June than in August/September. Mine looked a lot like this in the spring where everything was a little splotchy and hungry. I found feeding it a bit more often or a little more N less often helped even that out. At first it seemed like it couldn't get a enough, but then when the soil temps warmed up it looked better too.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Wile thanks. It’ll be nice to see what my recommendations are for the appraisal. I’d imagine that late May would be the same for me, as looking back at pictures after feeding it, that’s when my lawn looked it’s best.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

@Wile my climate appraisal was similar to yours. In fact, my area resembles more of a warm season growth curve than a traditional bi model cool season grass curve. I would also guess our WI and MI climates are not too different. Just goes to show general cool season advice is really not applicable across the country


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Deadheading and raking leaves in the backyard. Hoping to work on trenching and dumping the soil I have before the end of the month.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)




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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Used the push mowers to mow the reno. Collars about 2.50” and the rest at 1”. Towards the back, the aeration holes are spreading some. I need a heavier roller on the Earthwise, it’s hard to see diagonal lines later in the day. Some clippings in the middle at one inch and I plan on taking the collars down to 2”. Most spots look pretty good overhead. You can see how it’s filled in. It’s raining earlier than expected tomorrow, so Sunday if it’s dry I’m mowing that extra wide collar down to 1.75”, a few days later down to 1.25”, then 1” and hopefully get it even with everything else


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

The spot by the back of the house, I topdressed the most. The reason being it’s meant to sit slightly higher. I’m thinking about mowing it lower with everything else and just wrapping the collar around the edge, making it more rounded. Once I level next year, from just beyond that point is where I’d level presumably 1/4-1/2”. Some questions for that:

1. Is it best to cut the collars down with everything else in order to level?

2. Does anybody use a rotary mower to do their collars? It seems like that would be easier to to make collars curved and not straight around edges and bends.

3. If your collars are more than one pass width wise, how do you make it so neat looking? @bf7 your front yard, that’s what I’m trying to do with this spot.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

1. You'd likely have a hard time levelling anything above 1 inch. I didn't even attempt to level my roughs this year. You can cut them down if you don't mind looking at yellow crowns for a while.

2. I rotary mow mine.

3. Not sure if this is answering the question, but the key is to keep everything straight / neat when you're establishing the border between short / tall. From that point you're just following the lines you created. You do need to be careful with the reel mower because you can scalp the roughs. With the rotary, you can drive it freely because it won't reach down to your short grass.

I'm considering getting rid of the roughs in the spring to change things up again. For whatever reason the longer grass has given me more trouble with fert burn and whatnot. It looked "sick" at various points whereas the fairway always looked healthy. Plus I don't like rotary mowing. I would rather maintain collars at the max hoc on the greens mower and cut the fairway shorter.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 from what I’ve read in other journals, I think .50” is the most practical height to cut down to IOT level. It seems to take longer with the Scott’s mower, plus I could use the Toro and only empty the bag 1-2 times versus dumping the basket or blowing the clippings that fall out. Presumably for appearances, I’d want to keep up on sharpening the rotary blade.

I got in the habit already, of using the Earthwise to do an outside pass around the collars, to help see where tall ends and short begins. So far, I can tell where to push for the collars since there’s over 1.5” difference. I scalped the roughs with the McLane on the first time 😂. So I’m familiar. On the reno so far, the collars look the best and I like that color pop between reel short and reel long. Thanks.


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## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

@Jeff_MI84 You mentioned needing a heavier back roller for the Earthwise. Have any ideas for a solution for that?


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Ben4Birdies I found a post on here from someone with the exact same push reel mower. It seems most people use conveyor rollers. This seems to be one of the more frequent options from Global Industrial.









Custom Roller Earthwise 7 Blade Manual Reel Mower


Which brand did you buy or which website? In hind sight I wish I would have bought an Ashland roller. Their 1.9" x 16" or 18" 9 ga plain steel is over 5 lbs. I bought a 16 ga steel and it only weighs 3 lbs. If I would have noticed it sooner I would have mentioned it. They are also sold on...




www.thelawnforum.com


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @bf7 from what I’ve read in other journals, I think .50” is the most practical height to cut down to IOT level. It seems to take longer with the Scott’s mower, plus I could use the Toro and only empty the bag 1-2 times versus dumping the basket or blowing the clippings that fall out. Presumably for appearances, I’d want to keep up on sharpening the rotary blade.
> 
> I got in the habit already, of using the Earthwise to do an outside pass around the collars, to help see where tall ends and short begins. So far, I can tell where to push for the collars since there’s over 1.5” difference. I scalped the roughs with the McLane on the first time 😂. So I’m familiar. On the reno so far, the collars look the best and I like that color pop between reel short and reel long. Thanks.


The lower the better but I've found that 0.5 - 1" works fine for levelling. The thing that scares me sometimes at the lower height is that the turf gets completely buried in spots, but somehow it always comes back pretty quickly.

Why pick up the clippings? I just use the mulch setting every time and it doesn't leave any mess. Those extra nutrients will help keep your roughs dark.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@bf7 the grass catcher on the Scott’s is super flimsy. When I maneuver too much or lift up the mower it drops everything. I don’t worry about the smaller clippings in the middle but blow them if there’s a lot.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I agree, the manual reel catchers are bad. And the blade doesn't chop up the clippings super fine like a rotary. In my opinion, rotary on mulch setting is the best way to go for large roughs over 1.5 inches or so.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

uts said:


> Problem with spreading urea is the uneven distribution. If you have AMS, use that or spray urea and see if you see an improvement.


I was using the Scotts Wizz this year, and was able spread a quarter pound of N rate from urea with no issues, whereas a push spreader presents major issues as stated.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Green that’s the battery operated one correct? I like the Lesco. I use it with whatever small amount is left in the hopper. I almost have it down, with walking speed and distant between passes.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Cleaning up the back flower bed and using my half moon edger. I’ll redo it in the spring with the bed redefiner and put down beach pebbles. I plan on digging the trench about 6” deep and widening it a little. Then rake out all remaining mulch and lay the pebbles as evenly as possible. It didn’t flood in the back at all this year, with the 1-2 heavy rains I had.

Edit: of course, using a laser level to straighten out the lawn before finishing it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @Green that’s the battery operated one correct? I like the Lesco. I use it with whatever small amount is left in the hopper. I almost have it down, with walking speed and distant between passes.


Yes. And I'm not using it for excess stuff, but actual urea applications. Very accurate and fast to use. It's great to be able to use it one handed and concentrate on the output speed and distribution. You can actually see it spreading, and adjust. I've used it on pretty big areas with urea. And it beats dealing with a big spreader. Also easy to use in the rain with no mess. One of the best $25 spent for yard stuff.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Green I’ve probably checked it out at the store a few times. I suppose it beats having to spin and walk at the same time. Wouldn’t hurt to give it another look.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Planned on using the rotary mower on the reno for leaves and collars, but it’s a bit damp from the rain still. I’ll do it tomorrow. My plan is to water the front tomorrow morning for 8min or .13” per zone and 10min or .17” parkway. Mow the reno and water it on Thursday for 9min or .15”. Nearest PET I saw said .05”/ day. Still need to figure that out. But soil probe at 3” and 6” still showed moisture. I will water the shrubs one more time by Thursday with 1gal per, which is about right for the end of the year. Plus when it warms up and it’s dry, I’ll water them the same amount any time until spring. If there’s another warmish day this month with no rain, I might water the maple trees a little. 

Growth has slowed enough to where unless it warms up by next weekend, that’ll be it. So tomorrow’s final mow should be 1.25” with 2.50” collars, unless I can knock the collars down to 2.125” with the Toro. Right now, there’s significantly less sunlight in the back and a soil probe yesterday showed about 6/10 and the finger test today says to wait another day.

Friday is Veteran’s Day and I’ll be shutting off the spigots and taking all remaining dirt back to the dirt place to empty out the garage.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

There is also no rain predicted within the next two days. I figured I wouldn’t throw fertilizer down on the front. Unless I get rain, it would be too cold to throw ‘er down on the reno and just do a blitz in the spring on the reno.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I got home from work after sundown yesterday. It threw off my plans completely. Making a rash decision to get everything done on the last warm day, I left work and will pay the price for it next week. Tomorrow morning I am watering since there is no rain coming now. About 1/5” of watering so the soil isn’t too dry when it gets cold Saturday morning. 

Final mow on the reno today. 2.50” collars and 1.25” everywhere else. I opted to use the Scott’s on the collars one last time. I noticed some blades in the front after mowing were not cleanly cut, but far from shredded. Last mow I didn’t want to risk causing damage with the cold coming. Some spots look like it’s struggling. Mostly where I scalped too low over a month ago. There wasn’t enough time to recover, plus it is where I need to level the most. That probably delayed maturity for the shorter HOC area. I bet the spring flush and spoon feedings, will help it recover real nice by the end of spring or early summer. The areas I added topsoil, the grass looks better and thicker.

I like the height of where it’s at for the end of the season. I’ve been so busy that I didn’t have a chance to mess with the McLane the last few weeks. This winter I am considering buying a new reel and bedknife. It’s still in good shape but since this will be my mower in the back, I want to upgrade it. There’s a shop just over 30 miles away that I plan on contacting, they advertise working on reel mowers, to include sharpening, replacing parts, height adjusting and basically everything else. If they still do it, I’ll take the mower out there towards the end of winter and get it good to go.

Color wise, 2.50” the KBG looks phenomenal having gotten no iron. It still looks good at 1.25”. That being said, I’m going to mow at 1.25” a few times in the spring before lowering it down to .875” (after spoon feeding starts), it’s within 1/3 rule. It will probably take me a good month to remove the collar by the side garage door, down to 7/8”.

This weekend and early next week, weather providing, I will remove some pebbles and trench a little more. That will be my first sprint project, getting the trenches fixed. My pre-emergent and weed control will be timed better. I have T-Zone on hand for that. By May I’d like to have the sprinkler head by the house moved and there is one head by the side fence that might need to get lowered. 

In May I will start rotating Propiconazole and Cleary’s. June, September and October will be better months for Azoxystrobin (history says the back has more LS/ MO then). I will rotate Xzemplar in June-August. No more granular fungicides, that is where I messed up by not timing it correctly. My fall N blitz will start before September next year. I am guessing that fall is better for top dressing with sand, so why not get that done before the blitz kicks off? I would like to get into spraying nitrogen, but need a little more practice spraying first. Before pre-em I need to recalibrate my speed in the back. If there isn’t a bad fungal outbreak, I would like to throw down a little Milorganite around the 4th of July.

This reno really tested my patience and ability. I second guessed myself a lot. Also missed out on at least 2-3 spoon feedings. I made a bonehead mistake and didn’t spray the second round of Tenacity and pre-em was later than it should have been. I would hope that this reno is viewed as a success, but at the same time, good lessons learned for anybody else who wants to do one. I look forward to improving the backyard next year.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

That's a nice looking pile of clippings.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

bf7 said:


> That's a nice looking pile of clippings.


Yeah, dark color too.


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## tommydearest (9 mo ago)

Kind of sad seeing the season come to an end. Think you did a great job! I wouldn't worry too much about the pre-M timing. You'll get 'em in the spring!

Happy Veteran's Day.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@tommydearest thanks man. Appreciate it.


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

I think you are way too hard on yourself. This looks like a spectacular success in my opinion. Especially for KBG. Make sure you take the time to enjoy the growing season next year because this is going to look top notch. Give yourself the satisfaction of all your hard work. Well done, sir.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@gatorguy146 I tend to be at times. Thank you though.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Needed to blow the leaves off the reno, but a snow/ rain mix said not today. Taken yesterday, not even 24 hours after the last mow. Neighbors have a tree that’s got to be at least 40’ high that still has leaves on it.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tried to blow the remaining leaves off the reno in the dark after work. Was careful where I walked. Thankfully the ground isn’t frozen yet. Snow showers expected tomorrow.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I am happy with how the reno turned out. It was equal parts fun, stressful and educational. Some spots will struggle and other areas will improve as next year progresses.

Next year I will work on timing fertilizer apps and fungicides, along with dialing in the irrigation. I’ll try and get another audit in to see how much has changed, if anything. Plan on using more N-EXT products to work in more micronutrients.

This is just tentative, but more or less what I need to strive for, output wise according to my observations and mental notes:

No Azoxystrobin in May. Go June/ September/ October (decrease DS in spring by not using it early). Rotate Propiconazole, Cleary’s & Xzemplar until then. Stick with low label rate every 2-3 weeks and stop guessing and forgetting. Just Cleary’s & Xzemplar July-September unless lawn isn’t in bad shape (DMI’s). 

Spray MicroGreene and Humic12 together then RGS and AIR-8 together separately. Aim for end of April, end of May and September/ October. 

Split app of Dimension in April/ May 30 days apart at .36oz/ 1k and .37oz/ 1k. Again at .73oz/ 1k in September. Spray T-Zone in late April at 1oz spot spray app below 80° once it’s warmer for weeds. GrubEx in mid April and Merit July 1. Put plugs in first, after changing flowerbed layout before pre-em. 

2023 Goal on backyard:

.50lb N in April (depending on green up)
1lb N in May .25lb will be Milorganite end of May
.10lb N 4th of July Milorganite (maybe more
.50lb N in August * more? (HOC .50” for sand)
1lb N in September 
1lb N in October 
.25lb N in November (optional winterizer). 
4.10lb N total w/o winterizer.

P total according to soil test. Probably +/- 1lb P. 

K total according to soil test. Probably 3lb K. No K after Sept 1. Aim for April/ May/ late August.

Use 46-0-0, 21-0-0, 18-24-12, 25-0-6, 0-0-50 and M6-4-0.

Find good sand source and ask for sieve analysis. Would need about 2.5 yards of sand for 1/4”. Areas I topdressed closest to the house wouldn’t need it. Look to rent a top dresser. Try to figure that out by May at the latest.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I am happy with how the reno turned out. It was equal parts fun, stressful and educational. Some spots will struggle and other areas will improve as next year progresses.

Next year I will work on timing fertilizer apps and fungicides, along with dialing in the irrigation. I’ll try and get another audit in to see how much has changed, if anything. Plan on using more N-EXT products to work in more micronutrients.

This is just tentative, but more or less what I need to strive for, output wise according to my observations and mental notes:

No Azoxystrobin in May. Go June/ September/ October (decrease DS in spring by not using it early). Rotate Propiconazole, Cleary’s & Xzemplar until then. Stick with low label rate every 2-3 weeks and stop guessing and forgetting. Just Cleary’s & Xzemplar July-September unless lawn isn’t in bad shape (DMI’s). 

Spray MicroGreene and Humic12 together then RGS and AIR-8 together separately. Aim for end of April, end of May and September/ October. 

Split app of Dimension in April/ May 30 days apart at .36oz/ 1k and .37oz/ 1k. Again at .73oz/ 1k in September. Spray T-Zone in late April at 1oz spot spray app below 80° once it’s warmer for weeds. GrubEx in mid April and Merit July 1. Put plugs in first, after changing flowerbed layout before pre-em. 

2023 Goal on backyard:

.50lb N in April (depending on green up)
1lb N in May .25lb will be Milorganite end of May
.10lb N 4th of July Milorganite (maybe more
.50lb N in August * more? (HOC .50” for sand)
1lb N in September 
1lb N in October 
.25lb N in November (optional winterizer). 
4.10lb N total w/o winterizer.

P total according to soil test. Probably +/- 1lb P. 

K total according to soil test. Probably 3lb K. No K after Sept 1. Aim for April/ May/ late August.

Use 46-0-0, 21-0-0, 18-24-12, 25-0-6, 0-0-50 and M6-4-0.

Find good sand source and ask for sieve analysis.

I like going out and looking at (and feeling) this spot. Probably one of the best areas of the whole reno. One bare spot by the pop up to bug me all winter.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Hopefully this melts and doesn’t leave the ground too wet for a planned winterizer on Thanksgiving.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

That will definitely melt. Trust me, I've been watching snow and melt cycles all of the past week.

For the fert app, I'm more worried about the soil temp not coming back up. Currently at 29F / five day average 34F. The forecast looks decent this week so I'm not fretting too much. Your soil temp and forecast look very similar to mine.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

bf7 said:


> That will definitely melt. Trust me, I've been watching snow and melt cycles all of the past week.
> 
> For the fert app, I'm more worried about the soil temp not coming back up. Currently at 29F / five day average 34F. The forecast looks decent this week so I'm not fretting too much. Your soil temp and forecast look very similar to mine.


This cold spell sure did a number on things. I figure that time next week will be the last chance to drop fert for the year. If not, oh well.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Today I started cleaning out the gutters. It was nice enough outside. There must be some magical leaves or something, because I still have more to get off the lawn. Color is still holding up.


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## ReelWILawn (Aug 29, 2021)

still looks great with the early winter weather we've had


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I didn’t have enough daylight to fertilize a final time. Blew and vacuumed leaves up. Last app was on 10/21. Let’s see how it looks without a winterizer come spring time. It will be a good test, comparing front to back, even though the back takes longer to green up. Some spots looked hungry, possibly iron deficient as well. Next year I will use iron regularly. That’s the one thing lacking in 2022. Reno got 1.58lb/ 1K N since seed down. I will get at minimum 4lb next season. 

Back yard total:

2.58lb/ 1K N
.83lb/ 1K P
2.46lb/ 1K K
.70lb/ 1K S
.42lb/ 1K Cl


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Found some poa on the reno with the flashlight. Something to tackle next year. That and I’m unsure about some areas with overcrowding. Maybe it’ll sort itself out in the spring or I’ll just plug those spots. The main one is right by the pop up, guessing rainwater was the culprit.

I bought a flashlight from Lowe’s on Black Friday. It’s very bright and ideal for watching seed grow. With cold temps coming back, that wraps it up for 2022.

Probably taking my Toro, Echo edger and leaf vacuum in to get serviced before the snow comes. Still need to call a new shop I found and see that they service McLanes. I’ll shop around online for a new bedknife and reel (out of stock). Maybe in the next few years I will buy a JD reel mower.

















Rough drawing of how I’d like to move that sprinkler head and line. Still baffles me how it was installed butting up against the edging. The plan is to extend the flower bed out about a foot (+- a few inches) and try to align it with how I would mow diagonally, slightly skewed but as straight as possible. Part of the flowerbed has always stuck out in a rounded shape and I couldn’t do anything, as that is where the guinea pig memorial is placed. The cement by the flamingo is somewhat at an angle and I mow following the edge. Then pack down soil into the flowerbed and retrench it as clean as possible. Topsoil won’t need to be perfect since more beach pebbles are going down in place of mulch.

The owner of the irrigation company is who comes out to my house (they don’t install only fix and turn on/ off). I’ll talk with him about moving the line, which is along the edge. Look into renting one of those edgers or probably bed redefiners to create a straight edge and trench by hard near the line after it is moved. Irrigation system should get turned on by late April and I’ll ask him to come out a few weeks after to get that done. Plus side is, free plugs to use elsewhere in the back. That and moving the head further away from the coneflowers so they don’t rot again.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Some pretty heavy rain this afternoon. Minor pooling by the side downspout pop up, like the size of a baseball. I assume it due to the seed mat coming up. Another spot along the side by the table. I had a feeling that I inadvertently topdressed that area too high along the cement, cause water to accumulate there. But it only pools during non stop rain for hours. A few more hours of heavy rain, I’ll see how bad it looks after.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Tried to rake some small leaves and arborvitae bits that landed on the reno. Still some in the middle, but definitely not enough to cause major damage so it’s fine. Did a few tug tests and nothing pulled up, all that worrying. Felt around on the middle and it’s like carpet. I’m interested to see how thin it looks come the end of March/ early April when I pull cores for the soil test. Behind the garage will probably take the longest to fill in. The side along the shorter arborvitae will no doubt surprise me the most. I predict getting 15 or so plugs to fill in, but I shall see. The stray cat has been walking across the lawn closest to the house.


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