# Pre-emergent w/kicker question



## A3M0N (Mar 17, 2021)

After talking with @Amoo316 in my lawn journal about pre-emergent with a kicker, I have a question. How effective would a product like Celsius be when used along side Prodiamine, applied with a AIXR tip and no surfactant? Would I be wasting good product? Is a cheaper 3-way a better option?

What say you TLF?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

IMO I'd opt for the cheaper 3-way vs Celcius once temps are cooling down. At the end of the day though, it really depends on what you are targeting. I mentioned using a post in my Pre-M specifically in the fall app for already germinated POA & Lawn Burweed.


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## A3M0N (Mar 17, 2021)

I'd like to mop up the remaining crabgrass the first app of Celsius didn't finish off. Maybe I should just do a separate reapplication of Celsius with the correct tip and surfactant, then a Prodiamine only first split app, then see what I need for my second of the split app.

What are you thinking of using on the POA?


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

I think kickers make sense when targeting the same weeds pre / post for the second split app. What I mean is for the second fall pre-em treatment targeting winter weeds say in late October / early November, you can add a post kicker to kill the baby weeds that have emerged. That is when I am thinking about adding simazine and Negate (to kill the baby Poa for example). Weeds get a lot harder to kill when they mature. So for a late summer post app targeting summer weeds, I would spray separately from a fall pre-em app because to kill mature weeds, you likely will need NIS and multiple apps and the right nozzle.

I would apply the same logic in my second spring app.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

A3M0N said:


> I'd like to mop up the remaining crabgrass the first app of Celsius didn't finish off. Maybe I should just do a separate reapplication of Celsius with the correct tip and surfactant, then a Prodiamine only first split app, then see what I need for my second of the split app.
> 
> What are you thinking of using on the POA?


Quinclorac is more effective on crabgrass. Multi-tiller above 4 is difficult so you may need to hand pull or use gly. The Poa should have died off in the summer heat.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I honestly wouldn't bother targeting crabgrass in my first pre-M app personally as it's going to die when it gets cold anyways.

I think Negate is a good option as is Certainty. I'm probably going with Certainty/Cryder (POA) & 3 way (Burweed) as my 2nd split kickers.

I'm holding off on using Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) for spring kickers for it's pre-M effects on sedges/kyllinga & it's post effect on Burweed


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Amoo316 said:


> I honestly wouldn't bother targeting crabgrass in my first pre-M app personally as it's going to die when it gets cold anyways.
> 
> I think Negate is a good option as is Certainty. I'm probably going with Certainty/Cryder (POA) & 3 way (Burweed) as my 2nd split kickers.
> 
> I'm holding off on using Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) for spring kickers for it's pre-M effects on sedges/kyllinga & it's post effect on Burweed


I agree. For spring, second app, looking at pennant magnum + sulfentrazone. For baby crab and goose, what about adding quinclorac as a kicker? This year, I did a blanket app of quinclorac in May and had no crab....I did have tons of goose, though, and don't want to repeat that!


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

I use pre-emergent every year... what's the question?


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## A3M0N (Mar 17, 2021)

Kicker said:


> I use pre-emergent every year... what's the question?


Well played.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> I agree. For spring, second app, looking at pennant magnum + sulfentrazone. For baby crab and goose, what about adding quinclorac as a kicker? This year, I did a blanket app of quinclorac in May and had no crab....I did have tons of goose, though, and don't want to repeat that!


I think Quinclorac is a great spring kicker. My next few months probably look something like:

Fall 1: Indaziflam + Simazine +3 way
Fall 2: Indaziflam + Simazine + 3 way + Sulfosulfuron

Spring 1: Indaziflam + Prodiamine + 3 way
Spring 2: Indaziflam + Prodiamine + Sulfentrazone + Quinclorac


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

:lol:


A3M0N said:


> Kicker said:
> 
> 
> > I use pre-emergent every year... what's the question?
> ...


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Amoo316 said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. For spring, second app, looking at pennant magnum + sulfentrazone. For baby crab and goose, what about adding quinclorac as a kicker? This year, I did a blanket app of quinclorac in May and had no crab....I did have tons of goose, though, and don't want to repeat that!
> ...


@Amoo316 I like your plan. One question I have is the rationale of applying indaziflam and prodiamine? As I understand it, indaziflam has no recorded resistance (while prodiamine and simazine do) and it is a much stronger root pruner than prodiamine. It also covers more broadleaf weeds. Also for fall 1, will it still be too hot for a 3 way and simazine?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 I like your plan. One question I have is the rationale of applying indaziflam and prodiamine? As I understand it, indaziflam has no recorded resistance (while prodiamine and simazine do) and it is a much stronger root pruner than prodiamine. It also covers more broadleaf weeds. Also for fall 1, will it still be too hot for a 3 way and simazine?


This all goes back to the multiple MOA approach. In theory I should be able to just drop Indaziflam with a post and call it a day. Since I'm choosing to use Indaziflam without rotation, I want to take every precaution I can to try to limit any potential resistance occurring. (Prodiamine and SImazine are cheap in comparison to post or ruining Indaziflam)

My fall 1 will be first week of October according to greencast 5 & 10 year averages for my area.










My 3 way of choice is Trimec Southern (few reasons but not worth getting into, it's just a 3 way with the combo I prefer) which has a temp warning of greater than 90F. We should be fine by then. I need to re-read the label (on everything really) though before I set all of this in stone, as IIRC because of the Dicamba I may be limited to 2 brodcast apps per year. If so I'll skip 3 way in Fall 2.

Indaziflam is Group 21 - Cellulose Biosynthesis Inhibitor
Prodiamine is Group 3 - Mitosis Inhibitor
Simazine is Group 5 - Photosynthesis Inhibitor

Everything in my 3 way mix is Group 4 - Synthetic Auxins
Quinclorac is Group 4, hence why I wouldn't spray 3 way with it.

Sulfosulfuron is Group 2 - ALS Inhibitors
Sulfentrazone is Group 14 - Protox Inhibitor

I keep this link handy for MOAs and Group/Resistance codes: https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdf/AG/AG39800.pdf


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

@Jagermeister since the above is clear as mud, go back and think about the UT turf trials video. They used different combinations of pre and post all with different MOAs. Say for example I have a mutation in POA in my yard and it becomes resistant to Indaziflam if I just used it alone, I have a chance to kill that mutated plant with both Simazine and Sulfosulfuron, which are 2 additional methods of action. So if for some reason I did have a breakthrough, I am more likely to kill the mutation before it becomes widespread because it would have to break all 3 and survive.

That is the whole concept behind multiple MOAs for the same thing.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Amoo316 Yes, I fully agree and understand what you are saying, especially with adding a post kicker to catch any weeds that might break through, which is what UT calls 'Zone Defense'. I was just thinking that indaziflam plus prodiamine (both root pruners) might be redundant since there currently is no known resistance to indaziflam. In the UT study, I don't recall them using indaziflam and prodiamine at the same time. Also with indaziflam, I would think you have less need for kickers until we start seeing resistance.

To avoid new resistance, you should rotate MoAs so I guess I was thinking about rotating prodiamine and indaziflam every year, in and out of the program vs. running them at the same time. You also need to rotate ALS inhibitors in and out due to resistance issues there, say for Poa. The Grass Factor was recommending rotating ethnofumesate and sureguard in during dormancy.

Good thing is we are having this debate. The science behind it is fascinating to me and looking forward to seeing the results that people have. Anything is better than spraying prodiamine and sulfonylureas year after year!


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

@Jagermeister IMO just using indaziflam alone is going to lead to breakthroughs eventually, it's just a matter of time. The way I'm looking at it is Prodiamine and Simazine are the two main pre-Ms I'm using this year and Indaziflam is the kicker. So I plan to rotate my "main" Pre-Ms out within reason, but will continue to keep Indaziflam in the mix.

Funny you mentioned ethnofumesate, as I was looking at Bensulide.

At the end of the day, I'm trying to stay relatively reasonable on cost and do my best to rotate where I can.

The amount of spot treatments needed if I were to pull the Indaziflam would be significantly increased and would drive my post costs closer to the max ranges as I'd most likely need to brodcast instead of spot treat.

**Important part ends here**

I treat 1.5 acres so my cost breakdown already is:
I have a quart (32oz) of Esplande 200SC which cost me $374. 10oz per acre is the max annual rate. So I'm paying $175.31/yr for that.
I have 5lbs of Prodiamine which cost me $77. 2.73lbs per acre is the max annual rate, so if I use 4lbs It's costing me $61.60/yr.
I have 2.5gal of Simazine which cost me $75. 3q/acre is max annual so if I use 4.5qt it's costing me $33.75/yr.
Total is $270.66 just in Pre-M not counting playing zone defense with a post thrown in.

In comparison if I have to spray Prodiamine + Celcius + Certainty + Sedgehammer throughout the year (Not what I would spray but common for a lot of folks):
Prodiamine =$61.60 annually from above
Celcius = $150 for 10oz, 7.9oz/a is annual max so I need 11.85oz @ $15/oz = $177.75
Certainty/Cryder = $319 for 20oz, 2.66oz/a is annual max so I need 3.99oz @ $15.95/oz = $63.64
Sedgehammer/Empero = $61.46 for 1.33oz, 5.33oz is max annual rate so I need 8oz @ $46.21/oz = $369.68
Total annual is $672.67 needing max rates.

So for my situation, if I have to spend say $300-$350 in Pre-M + kickers per year for 1.5 acres, then another $75-100 to spot treat throughout the year I feel that is a win. $450/12 months = $37.50/mo on weed control.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

:thumbup: Makes a lot of sense!


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@Amoo316



> So for my situation, if I have to spend say $300-$350 in Pre-M + kickers per year for 1.5 acres, then another $75-100 to spot treat throughout the year I feel that is a win. $450/12 months = $37.50/mo on weed control.


Wow. That is a great analysis. I agree with your assessment that you need very little post-Em When using a great Pre-M approach. This is a very cost effective approach.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

cldrunner said:


> @Amoo316
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's one of those things that scales up and down with size right. If you have 5Kftsq of yard you're treating, you can be much more conservative in your pre-M approach IMO as every application of post is less impactful from a financial standpoint. At least over the short term. It just spreads the costs out longer. If you can spend $10-$20 a month with Prod + Cel + Cert + Sedge, that's not breaking many people's bank monthly. Trying to scale that approach is where it becomes cost prohibitive IMO.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

Amoo316 said:


> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> > @Amoo316
> ...


This is the first year that I have not done a post blanket spray using this 3 MOA approach. I just got back from vacation and had not mowed for 8 days. For this late in the season I only had a handful of sedge pop up.

On another note I have neighbors that have armyworms. I feel like my two mode insecticide(Imidacloprod+Bifen) defense strategy has also worked as well as I only saw 3 armyworms in 25K sq ft. They were in my front ditch area so they probably washed in with the 3 inches of rain a few days ago. One package of Imidacloprid($30) and a gallon of Bifen($52) is also paying dividends at a low cost.

We don't have to break the bank for a great Pre-m, Insecticide, and fungicide program even with over an acre to treat.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

> To avoid new resistance, you should rotate MoAs so I guess I was thinking about rotating prodiamine and indaziflam every year, in and out of the program vs. running them at the same time. You also need to rotate ALS inhibitors in and out due to resistance issues there, say for Poa. The Grass Factor was recommending rotating ethnofumesate and sureguard in during dormancy.


@Jagermeister I do not see a problem with this. The only thing is that you have to remember the audience that The Grass Factor is talking to. Most of the time he is talking to professional operators who are trying to squeeze every "ounce" of margin to operate their company. Yes, they are almost never going to use a 3 MOA approach based on cost. As a homeowner not trying to maximize margin, still keep cost low for large yards, and minimize herbicide resistance, a 3 MOA approach is a better pre-m approach in my opinion.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

@Frankzzz read through here. I'm sorry it's in another thread about Pre-Ms but this answers the exact questions you asked there.


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## GoDawgs (Jun 18, 2020)

All of this info you guys have shared sure is helpful, and appreciated.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

cldrunner said:


> Amoo316 said:
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> 
> > cldrunner said:
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I am on board with the pre-m program and am doing the same on insecticide. What is your fungicide program? I find that a preventative fungicide is pretty pricey due to the volumes and seems to be limited choices for homeowners on rotating MOAs. I have been trying to target fungicides that work on both brown patch and dollar spot so not using azoxy because of that.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I keep Myclobutanil (Eagle 20EW) and Thiphanate-methyl (Clearys 336F) on hand. I don't spray preventative fungicides though, but I keep the Group 1 and Group 3 options on hand for curative. If you forced me to use a third one I'd probably opt for Chlorothalonil (Group 5), but I don't keep it on hand.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Amoo316 , @cldrunner my pre-e plan failed thus far and have a huge poa and broadleaf outbreak. I put a split app of prodiamine down in mid-September right before we had a cold front come through. I must have waited too late to apply or it was a failed app.

Yesterday, I went nuclear on the lawn and applied second app of prodiamine plus a full app of indaziflam and simazine. For post kickers to kill the weeds, I put down Negate, triad and quinclorac (for dollarweed) plus MSO. Hopefully this doesn't roast the lawn going into dormancy!

Do you all know how long it takes to see action against the poa for Negate, simazine, and for indaziflam (label states it has some post effectiveness)?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 , @cldrunner my pre-e plan failed thus far and have a huge poa and broadleaf outbreak. I put a split app of prodiamine down in mid-September right before we had a cold front come through. I must have waited too late to apply or it was a failed app.
> 
> Yesterday, I went nuclear on the lawn and applied second app of prodiamine plus a full app of indaziflam and simazine. For post kickers to kill the weeds, I put down Negate, triad and quinclorac (for dollarweed) plus MSO. Hopefully this doesn't roast the lawn going into dormancy!
> 
> Do you all know how long it takes to see action against the poa for Negate, simazine, and for indaziflam (label states it has some post effectiveness)?


Did you put down your Indaziflam and Simazine with the MSO? That's generally a no-no, and hopefully you split those up

I would imagine the combination of Simazine and Negate should make pretty quick work of the POA. If it doesn't get all of it (I suspect you'll be over 90-95% effectiveness) you can always dormant spray with Glypho.

That said, if you dropped a full app of Simazine, that is going to put the hard breaks on your yard. If I'm not mistaken, Milton is North of ATL, you're just going to have to hope for one more warm snap after this current one we're about to be in for the yard to really push through it.

Either way, I would expect things to look pretty pissed for the next week or so, but it's Bermuda so in the end, it'll recover.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Amoo316 I did decided to go ahead and put all together in one app based upon what I read on the labels. From the Specticle Flo label, it states it can have a post effect on Poa by adding MSO:



I figured that bermuda was about to go dormant anyway. We had a light frost on Sunday morning. Warm temps this week and then another cold snap this weekend.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 I did decided to go ahead and put all together in one app based upon what I read on the labels. From the Specticle Flo label, it states it can have a post effect on Poa by adding MSO:
> 
> 
> 
> I figured that bermuda was about to go dormant anyway. We had a light frost on Sunday morning. Warm temps this week and then another cold snap this weekend.


Good catch on the Indaziflam label, that wasn't something I had seen as it's not part of my POA control strategy specifically. As is obvious by my writeup I opt for post with sulfosulfuron because of some of the farm land weeds we get in the winter that negate doesn't cover.

I would expect the Simazine to do a major number on your yard though. It's not going to kill it, but I wouldn't be surprised if you're thinking, "WTH did I do". I would for sure expect some yellowing before dormancy kicks in, but as I stated previously, it'll be fine. You might consider taking to top off with a charity mow day before you guys dip down into that cold snap. I was up near Knoxville for a tournament this past weekend and the cold snap gave us frost Saturday morning, so you guys should see one sooner then later.

EDIT: It was just a light frost, not enough to freeze the ground


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Thanks. I expected that it would ding the lawn pretty hard but thought that was ok as it was going dormant soon anyway....maybe my thinking was wrong! Main goal was I wanted to do a cleanup of all the weeds and prevent any more using Indaziflam through winter.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Nah don't panic when it start yellowing from the full simazine dose. It'll be just fine. That was the point I was trying to get across. You hit it hard, which is fine, but it will rebound. What you will see is the expected response and why Simazine has a generalized, "don't apply before these dates" on the label.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

:thumbup:


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## Bombers (Jul 14, 2020)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 I did decided to go ahead and put all together in one app based upon what I read on the labels. From the Specticle Flo label, it states it can have a post effect on Poa by adding MSO:
> 
> 
> 
> I figured that bermuda was about to go dormant anyway. We had a light frost on Sunday morning. Warm temps this week and then another cold snap this weekend.


I believe the MSO was referring to to increasing the efficacy of Revolver, not specifically turn indazilam into a ''lite'' post-emergent.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Bombers Interesting thought. I read it as use Revolver to control mature (tillered) Poa and that Indaziflam could control baby Poa. I substituted Negate and Simazine for Revolver so hopefully the total combo will eradicate it!


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Amoo316 I put the concoction down on Sunday evening. So far, not seeing much action, even on the bermuda. I am seeing some minor yellowing on some of the poa but mostly giving me the middle finger! Hopefully, it is slow acting and I need to be more patient!


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 I put the concoction down on Sunday evening. So far, not seeing much action, even on the bermuda. I am seeing some minor yellowing on some of the poa but mostly giving me the middle finger! Hopefully, it is slow acting and I need to be more patient!


I don't think Negate is particularly fast acting. It has mentions on the label for reapplication of easier to control broadleafs and Bahia in 4-6 weeks. I would just keep an eye on it and see if a repeat will be necessary to finish it off. If so, you may be late enough in the year by that point to Negate + glypho assuming the play well together in a jar.

That's the approach I would take personally.

Also, good to hear your Bermuda has slowed down enough already that you're seeing little to no action on your grass. We're close to a freeze down here this weekend, you guys are getting your first one I assume?


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Amoo316 Yes, excruciatingly slow!!!! I do see some yellowing but there are some healthy, larger plants mixed in as well. I think I am going to try another app of Negate next weekend following the warm weather we will have this week and hopefully finish them off....My last resort will be a dormant gly in January.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> @Amoo316 Yes, excruciatingly slow!!!! I do see some yellowing but there are some healthy, larger plants mixed in as well. I think I am going to try another app of Negate next weekend following the warm weather we will have this week and hopefully finish them off....My last resort will be a dormant gly in January.


I've started tiger striping down here this week, and my centipede is already sleeping, so I would expect some pretty slow action from Negate up where you're at, about 2.5hrs north. We hit 33deg one night early this week and that put everything to bed for the most part.

Anything that isn't already sleeping has already brushed it's teeth and got it's pjs on, so I wouldn't expect anything to work fast right now.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> > @Amoo316 Yes, excruciatingly slow!!!! I do see some yellowing but there are some healthy, larger plants mixed in as well. I think I am going to try another app of Negate next weekend following the warm weather we will have this week and hopefully finish them off....My last resort will be a dormant gly in January.
> ...


Crazy you are already going to sleep! But I agree- the cold is slowing down any action from a post emergent process. Weeks - not days at this point.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

FATC1TY said:


> Crazy you are already going to sleep! But I agree- the cold is slowing down any action from a post emergent process. Weeks - not days at this point.


We just had our first frost this morning. 31F. Everything will be brown that wasn't already within the next 48 hours.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> > Crazy you are already going to sleep! But I agree- the cold is slowing down any action from a post emergent process. Weeks - not days at this point.
> ...


I'm a fair bit north of you, and we've had atleast 2 frosty mornings, enough to knock out tons of plants and flowers for the year.

My grass? Looks like I painted it green against everyone else's. Very weird weather !


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

FATC1TY said:


> Amoo316 said:
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> 
> > FATC1TY said:
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I think I am further north than you. We have had numerous heavy frosts now over the past two weeks. My grass is still fairly green (say half and half) while the other lawns are full brown.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I'm assuming that has to do with my Bermuda being an improved common type and you guys have sod type.

Funny thing is, even though the centipede went to sleep first, the stolons are still green at the bottom as are the very bottom 1/4" or so of leaf blades. For a visual think of upside down bermuda. The Bermuda that has gone dormant already is straight brown. Gotta admit though, this is the first year I've had the Bermuda dense enough to get the tiger striping effect, which I really like. Will be sad to see it go.


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