# Fine & Dark TTTF



## Bri831 (Apr 5, 2020)

I'm not the biggest TTTF fan in the world. I just can't get over the wide flat blades compared to the fine carpet look of KBG and PRG.

HOWEVER! I can't get over TTTF's ability to withstand heat and drought and look as green as can be. I have about 25k sq ft of back yard that I want to look nice, but it gets full sun 90% of the day and it's non irrigated so KBG won't hold up. So I've decided to do a full reno next fall and go all TTTF. While researching what cultivars I would want to plan,t I took the 2013-17 NTEP Final Report and extracted the Means for texture and color. If I am going to go TTTF I want the finest, darkest blend I can get. It's my personal preference so that's what I care about.

I first sorted by texture high to low then highlighted yellow down to 6.2 if the color was 7 or above. I then sorted by color from high to low and highlighted Green down to 7. Next I added a column for Total, which is the texture and color numbers added together. I then sorted by total and highlighted in blue to top cultivars that have actual names you can purchase.

What I find the most interesting is the almost none of popular names that everyone always talks about (4th M, Tit 2LS, Valk, etc.) are at the top. Regenerate is the only "big name" IMO at the top.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

are you looking for suggestions? I have some Siesta TTTF in my yard and it is very thin and dark. Summer TTTF looks like it might be similar. They might be what you are looking for. They seem thinner than my KBG cultivars in my yard but I have no idea what KBG cultivars I have so they might all be medium width types.


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## elgrow (Mar 30, 2020)

I know people can get a bit obsessive about cultivars on here, but I almost think you are slicing hairs at this point. That whole list is within 6 tenths of each other on these two factors, and some of the variance is even smaller than that. Highest color being 6.5 and then 4th Millenium (which you mentioned) down at 6.3.

A lot of people use GCI TTTF blend and Thor is a third of that blend, coming in on 8th on your list. Also looking at most of the recommendations for NC, VA and MD have these brands of seed on their tier 1 lists which I know factors in other things like heat stress and disease resistance. So while they may not be mentioned as much on here, they are being mentioned by the states ag extensions.

https://www.pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/spes/spes-237/SPES-262.pdf


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## Bri831 (Apr 5, 2020)

badtlc said:


> are you looking for suggestions? I have some Siesta TTTF in my yard and it is very thin and dark. Summer TTTF looks like it might be similar. They might be what you are looking for. They seem thinner than my KBG cultivars in my yard but I have no idea what KBG cultivars I have so they might all be medium width types.


I'm semi looking for suggestions, but also pointing out that the most popular cultivars that always get talked about in these forums are not necessarily the best grass in appearance. Most of us are want great looking yards but we aren't putting down the varieties that score the highest in appearance and choose overall quality with all things considered.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

Bri831 said:


> badtlc said:
> 
> 
> > are you looking for suggestions? I have some Siesta TTTF in my yard and it is very thin and dark. Summer TTTF looks like it might be similar. They might be what you are looking for. They seem thinner than my KBG cultivars in my yard but I have no idea what KBG cultivars I have so they might all be medium width types.
> ...


That is a bit subjective. Many folks prefer the look of the medium width blades over the fine blade look. The medium width texture can give you a thicker and more upright appearance at higher HOCs. Some like the more rigid appearance and don't like the "soft" look of thin blades. We all have our preferences.


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## BH Green (Apr 9, 2020)

I made a very similar spreadsheet before deciding my cultivars, but I also included shade tolerance and disease resistance ratings. Cultivars do matter, but what I discovered to be one of the biggest factors affecting blade width in my yard was the turf density. If a spot was more bare, the blades grew much wider compared to areas with more density.

One example of where I observed this was where a neighborhood dog peed on my yard this summer and killed a small spot. The tall fescue tillered and filled it in, but now those blades are wider than the surrounding area. Another spot where I had poor germination came up patchy during the reno, but the fescue surprisingly filled in the bare spots-the blades were wider there too. So environmental factors do play a significant role in leaf width.


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## abstract (May 31, 2020)

elgrow said:


> I know people can get a bit obsessive about cultivars on here, but I almost think you are slicing hairs at this point. That whole list is within 6 tenths of each other on these two factors, and some of the variance is even smaller than that. Highest color being 6.5 and then 4th Millenium (which you mentioned) down at 6.3.


I think this is spot on, there's not much difference in the scores on these measures. And a lot of the cultivars that are talked about a lot (and that I used in my reno/overseed) score well across all measures, but not necessarily at the very highest for each one. In my mind, disease resistance is really important - your grass won't look great if it's dead.


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## RVAGuy (Jul 27, 2020)

There is a lot more there to be considered such as disease resistance, shade tolerance, growth in your particular zone, etc. I wouldn't get too caught up on the numbers. For all we know, #1 on the color/texture list could have ZERO drought tolerance, susceptible to disease, whatever. Just something to keep in mind.


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## daveNJ (Aug 18, 2020)

From what I recall when researching cultivars this summer, you should look at the Least Significant Difference (LSD) value to see which differences in ratings having any significance. For example, if the LSD value is 0.5, cultivar X has a rating of 6.8 for color, and cultivar Y has a color rating of 7.1, the difference is only 0.3 which is within the 0.5 LSD value. This means the difference isn't significant. You can read more about this here: http://ntep.org/interpat.htm


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## always_creative (Aug 28, 2020)

daveNJ said:


> From what I recall when researching cultivars this summer, you should look at the Least Significant Difference (LSD) value to see which differences in ratings having any significance. For example, if the LSD value is 0.5, cultivar X has a rating of 6.8 for color, and cultivar Y has a color rating of 7.1, the difference is only 0.3 which is within the 0.5 LSD value. This means the difference isn't significant. You can read more about this here: http://ntep.org/interpat.htm


This is an important factor. The ratings don't give you a good sense of scale. We could be talking inches or thousandths of an inch, it's all comparative. Most of these cultivars are similar in width, and in your lawn it may vary depending on how dense the turf is anyway.

If you're very focused on blade fineness, order a bunch of 3oz samples from seed superstore, plant them in pots or in a test plot, and see which ones you like best.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Bri831 said:


> I'm not the biggest TTTF fan in the world. I just can't get over the wide flat blades compared to the fine carpet look of KBG and PRG.
> 
> HOWEVER! I can't get over TTTF's ability to withstand heat and drought and look as green as can be. I have about 25k sq ft of back yard that I want to look nice, but it gets full sun 90% of the day and it's non irrigated so KBG won't hold up. So I've decided to do a full reno next fall and go all TTTF. While researching what cultivars I would want to plan,t I took the 2013-17 NTEP Final Report and extracted the Means for texture and color. If I am going to go TTTF I want the finest, darkest blend I can get. It's my personal preference so that's what I care about.
> 
> ...


Anyone know how well Thor and Diablo stand up to harsh northeast winters?


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

The "big name" ones are relatively easy to find, though. It seems like I remember wanting to use Foxhound in my mix last year and having a hard time sourcing it.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

I can speak to the harsh northeast winters. I leveled area around the three septic tank covers and did a heavy overseed in the foreground. used the GCI blend which is Thor, Falcon IV and Black Tail.

At seeding, some heavily over seeded and some from bare dirt. 


March 10, snow just receded. The area that was completely reseeded looked the best coming out of winter. 


April 3, again, the area fully reseeded greener up faster. 


May 15, it all pretty much blended together.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

tam said:


> The "big name" ones are relatively easy to find, though. It seems like I remember wanting to use Foxhound in my mix last year and having a hard time sourcing it.


Did you have any luck finding foxhound?


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Maybe also factor in the drought resistance and disease resistance numbers? The biggest factors for selecting TTTF will come down to those. So while a Rhizing Moon or Thor may not score as significantly high as the others when it comes to color and texture, the disease resistance and drought tolerance plays a role in this.

It could very well be that the others are good in these areas, I don't know. But it's a balance of all of the scores. That's why the most popular become the most popular. There's a reason. Obviously this will be location dependent, but color and texture are only one part of the equation.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Like others have said many of the differences in scores are insignificant. And if you plan on applying iron, it can give you that extra boost of green you "may" be sacrificing of you went with another variety.

Appearances are important to all of us, but if you get variety that does poorly in your winters or to drought stress and does off, the color and leaf texture scores wont matter


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Did you have any luck finding foxhound?


IIRC, Hogan had some.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

What I'm finding out this season is disease resistance is more important than color especially with TTTF the battle is tiring


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## PALawnGuy5 (Apr 19, 2021)

M32075 said:


> What I'm finding out this season is disease resistance is more important than color especially with TTTF the battle is tiring


Same for me - based on my experiences the last 2 years, I will value drought and disease resistance over color. I'm trying to run a bunch of planter test plots to look at the color/blade variability to determine which blend I want to use for a future reno.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

PALawnGuy5 said:


> M32075 said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm finding out this season is disease resistance is more important than color especially with TTTF the battle is tiring
> ...


I agree 💯 color is third on my list. Keep us posted on your test plots you definitely have my interest.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

PALawnGuy5 said:


> M32075 said:
> 
> 
> > What I'm finding out this season is disease resistance is more important than color especially with TTTF the battle is tiring
> ...


Same here. I ended up getting a bag of the Rhizing Moon for my back yard which is surrounded by trees for this fall's overseed. I also picked up a small bag of Titan for a couple/few patches that are scorched as the front yard faces west and there's little tree cover in spots.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

thin_concrete said:


> PALawnGuy5 said:
> 
> 
> > M32075 said:
> ...


How has your rhizing moon held up? I'll be overseeing with it this fall


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> How has your rhizing moon held up? I'll be overseeing with it this fall


I'm putting it down later this year - just wanted to get it before the summer rush, if there is a such a thing. I tried to grab some Barricade late last year and DoMyOwn was out briefly (could've been a pure coincidence), but it made me want to get the seed now. It's going to be inside the house until it's put down, so hopefully it won't be affected too much.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

thin_concrete said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > How has your rhizing moon held up? I'll be overseeing with it this fall
> ...


I think you should be fine. I've purchased seed in early spring to have for the fall and like clockwork, I'll need more seed and purchase more in the fall of the same year and the dates on the seed bags are identical. I doubt it will be affected


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