# Does anyone have a home energy monitoring system?



## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

I am looking to monitors my electricity and I am considering between Iotawatt, Emporia, Sense, Green Eye, & Circuit Setup. I am willing to consider other companies also.

Just curious if you used an electrician for install and how the product has aided in helping you reduce your electricity consumption.


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## wingless (Jan 28, 2019)

The image shown on the Emporia web site is waaay too sloppy for me to permit in my home.










My personal experience had me doing home wiring for many, many decades, wiring many homes and having me rewired my existing house.

It is VERY common in southern Florida for a house to have both interior and exterior panels w/ breakers. For proper coverage a solution would need monitors in both locations. Here are my interior and exterior panels. Mine now also has another sub panel in the detached shed workshop.



















It is a cool "bell and whistle" but the best tool for consumption reduction would be to locate which loads are the biggest hitters and target those. If I were to perform that task I would use one of my hand held clamp on current meters. In my case, the AC was the largest, so I swapped my working but old system for a new replacement. I also changed from a water heater tank to a tankless instant water heater. All my lighting is now LED. My energy usage is now very good.


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

I have a Sense. It doesnt live up to its advertising hype.

It can only resolve individual appliances with simple power profiles. It doesnt identify LED or CFL lights, refrigerators with variable speed compressors or LG's linear compressor. washers/ driers with variable speed motors, furnaces with variable speed blowers, variable speed well pumps, anything with a slow ramp in power draw over several msecs, TVs, EVs, it basically doesnt detect much.

It does well with on/off appliances like filament type bulbs, microwaves, garbage disposals, water heater, garage door opener.

Its main advantage is identifying the Always On baseline power drawn. Lets face it, if you're trying to reduce your power footprint, you're not going to go out and buy more frugal appliances. You're going to attack the always on vampire drains. It doesnt tell you which appliances are causing it but it does tell you the overall level of the vampire drain. You then have to go into detective mode and turn off breakers or unplug devices to determine which appliances are the worst.


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## wingless (Jan 28, 2019)

wingless said:


> It is a cool "bell and whistle" but the best tool for consumption reduction would be to locate which loads are the biggest hitters and target those. If I were to perform that task I would use one of my hand held clamp on current meters.





****o1 said:


> Its main advantage is identifying the Always On baseline power drawn. Lets face it, if you're trying to reduce your power footprint, you're not going to go out and buy more frugal appliances. You're going to attack the always on vampire drains. It doesnt tell you which appliances are causing it but it does tell you the overall level of the vampire drain. You then have to go into detective mode and turn off breakers or unplug devices to determine which appliances are the worst.


When I was investigating a high power consumption home I used my hand held clamp on current meter, going down each power wire in the circuit breaker panel, until I found a heavy draw that was unable to be located when toggled on and off.

It turned out to be the roof heating elements, to prevent ice dams, in a New England home. They were left on 24/7/365 for the new owners, quietly burning power.

Not as cool as an iPhone display, but this method will certainly permit accurate quantification of load power consumption, parasitic or otherwise.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

wingless said:


> The image shown on the Emporia web site is waaay too sloppy for me to permit in my home.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A couple strips of panduit and relocating the module either flat on the bottom or just outside the panel would clean all that up nicely.


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

@wingless is there a clamp meter that you can recommend?

Never had one, but I may look into getting one of those.


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## wingless (Jan 28, 2019)

For AC ampere measurement, the name brand stuff, such as a Fluke 323, looks nice. My speculation is the inexpensive Asian brand stuff will also work fine. For AC measurement, I have both a dinosaur name brand and a cheapo tool, both work fine.

For also measuring DC amperes, the tool will have a zero current null adjustment. My dinosaur name brand tool does that with a manual adjustment wheel knob. Some of the available tools have a pushbutton zero current null adjustment. Some are probes w/ banana connectors to an existing multimeter. My AC/DC dinosaur tool is a probe, but also has a small low resolution digital display. The Fluke i410 looks nice. The other AC/DC probes and the integrated meters also look fine.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

As somebody who worked with electricity for years, I'm all about saving money, but buy a Fluke. I'd rather have the confidence in my equipment after testing a circuit and verifying then wondering if I should have spent the extra $40-$100. Good news is in worst case scenario it's a mistake you only make once.


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

****o1 said:


> I have a Sense. It doesnt live up to its advertising hype.
> 
> It can only resolve individual appliances with simple power profiles. It doesnt identify LED or CFL lights, refrigerators with variable speed compressors or LG's linear compressor. washers/ driers with variable speed motors, furnaces with variable speed blowers, variable speed well pumps, anything with a slow ramp in power draw over several msecs, TVs, EVs, it basically doesnt detect much.
> 
> ...


@****o1 is this what you have?

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Wiser-Energy-Smart-Smart-Home-Utility-Monitor/1000994534


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@turfnsurf - what's the intent, what are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to get a feel for you energy use, esp over time, then something like the Emporia Vue is a great way to keep an eye on things. But if you suspect something is awry the clamp meter is what you'd want. 
So what is it that you'd like for such a tool to do?


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

turfnsurf said:


> @****o1 is this what you have?
> 
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-Wiser-Energy-Smart-Smart-Home-Utility-Monitor/1000994534


Yes. Square D OEMs it under their own brand name but its the same thing.

https://sense.com/


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

corneliani said:


> @turfnsurf - what's the intent, what are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to get a feel for you energy use, esp over time, then something like the Emporia Vue is a great way to keep an eye on things. But if you suspect something is awry the clamp meter is what you'd want.
> So what is it that you'd like for such a tool to do?


I want to manage my overall home usage. So for example, I intend to buy a Moen Flo setup to monitor my water consumption.

I want to create the same thing with electricity, so that I can observe my usage and make adjustments where I can (I already know that there is nothing I can do about the refrigerator and A/C).

Just trying to be more efficient. Do you think Emporia will help me with that?


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

****o1 said:


> turfnsurf said:
> 
> 
> > @****o1 is this what you have?
> ...


What does this mean? Is it actually Sense, but Square D copied the same technology so they can make a buck? So kind of how with prescriptions, the generics are ultimately the same thing as the name brand drugs?


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

The parent company of Square D, Schneider Electric, invested $18m in Sense in 2018. So they're in a partnership and are OEMing the device under their own brand name Wiser.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/how-sense-is-building-energy-disaggregation-into-the-smart-home


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

****o1 said:


> The parent company of Square D, Schneider Electric, invested $18m in Sense in 2018. So they're in a partnership and are OEMing the device under their own brand name Wiser.
> 
> https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/how-sense-is-building-energy-disaggregation-into-the-smart-home


Ahh. When I spoke to a local electrician, he was saying that he's seen a lot of Schenider Square D products by Wiser...and I was wondering why that name didn't come up in my search.

Thanks for clarifying. Do you think this product will help me reduce my electricity dependency?


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

turfnsurf said:


> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> > @turfnsurf - what's the intent, what are you trying to accomplish? If you're trying to get a feel for you energy use, esp over time, then something like the Emporia Vue is a great way to keep an eye on things. But if you suspect something is awry the clamp meter is what you'd want.
> ...


With a new home I think your expectations are in line with what these products can deliver. You'll be able to find long-term savings opportunities - but its only through behavioral changes & adjustment or spending money up-front on appliances that offer long-term savings (which can take 10+ years to break even on!). Some think these things magically save energy but all they do is make you aware of your usage, no different than our cars showing us our MPG usage. It's up to us to make any adjustments, and that's all we actually can manage. If you're an information nerd where you just need to have hard data at your fingertips (join the club if you are) these little gadgets are cool as heck! But I must add this reality... _*the easiest way you can save money is by NOT BUYING these monitors!*_ :lol:


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## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

As Corneliani said, you'll save the most by not buying a monitor. But it sure is a neat gadget.

The sales claim of identifying each individual energy drain is just that, a claim. It doesnt really work all that well. And even if it did, what you going to do about? Suppose you find your TV is a heavy current hog. Are you going to sell a $1000 TV and buy a more energy efficient one just to save a few dollars per year? How about your fridge? No you're not. It wont be replaced until something breaks on it that cant be repaired.

I've owned my monitor for a couple years now and in that time around 60% of my total power drain is still unidentified and classified as "other" or "always on". Its just really bad at its main job., separating out the individual power users. It hasnt found a single light bulb, any TVs, no computers, no printers, the fridge, the oven, the washer/drier, you get the idea. It did find the microwave, well pump, water heater, furnace blower, AC compressor, and paper shredder.

However, it's really good at identifying your baseline load. the minimum power draw of your house over 24 hours. It's this always on load that runs up your electric bill but you still have to run around unplugging every appliance in the house to figure out which ones draw the highest current. And even after that, then what? Are you going to buy a new garage door opener just because the old one draws 10 watts in standby?

I dont think anyone I know who has bought one of these has managed to lower energy consumption much at all. But it really is fun to play with.


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

@corneliani and @****o1 you guys have shattered my dreams.

Although I don't have a background in electricity, I was wondering how much added value these types of products would provide outside of feeding my need for information.

Do you guys think the Moen Flo product have better value? Or is that also along the lines of a cool toy?


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## avionics12 (Jul 2, 2018)

I had a Flo by Moen installed in my last home. Once it had "calibrated" to my regular water usage pattern it was a great tool to see where I was using water (mostly lawn irrigation ).

The real benefit is the leak detection. I received a notice two times alerting me to a leak (Master Bathroom toilet and outside faucet) I was surprised about the outside faucet because I would have never noticed a very slow leak like that.

Now that I am finally back in a home (rather than an apartment) I will install a Phyn Plus. It does the same task, however there are no moving parts which is attractive to the Engineer in me. I also want to learn the differences between the two products.

Last thought - Some insurance companies may offer a homeowners discount for the use of a water usage monitor.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

avionics12 said:


> I had a Flo by Moen installed in my last home. Once it had "calibrated" to my regular water usage pattern it was a great tool to see where I was using water (mostly lawn irrigation ).
> 
> The real benefit is the leak detection. I received a notice two times alerting me to a leak (Master Bathroom toilet and outside faucet) I was surprised about the outside faucet because I would have never noticed a very slow leak like that.
> 
> ...


Amazing what triggers our internal engineers, :lol:. An ultrasonic flow meter is going to have requirements for x amount of pipe diameters upstream and downstream of straight line, no elbows, valves (full port ball vales are usually ok), fittings, etc. That may be built into the Phyn unit already, as it appears to be significantly larger than the Moen device.

I have no qualms with a quality turbine meter, as they are the predominant type used still for municipal water supply. You know, the one that's typically buried in the front yard and rarely ever sees daylight over it's decades-long lifespan. 

As moving parts go, both types mentioned are going to have a valve involved. Is the Phyn a motorized ball valve like the Flo? I definitely recommend exercising such a valve on occasion. Perfect opportunity to automate it too.


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## avionics12 (Jul 2, 2018)

The Phyn is an automated valve that will close after certain parameters are met, or on command. As with the Flo I will have a scheduled time to exercise the valve.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

turfnsurf said:


> @corneliani and @****o1 you guys have shattered my dreams.
> 
> Although I don't have a background in electricity, I was wondering how much added value these types of products would provide outside of feeding my need for information.
> 
> Do you guys think the Moen Flo product have better value? Or is that also along the lines of a cool toy?


I didn't mean to shatter your dreams .. just wanted to make sure you had tempered expectations. I know you just moved into a new home so the chances of you finding savings to offset the cost of the equipment is slim.

All that aside, a great argument for getting this installed is that you'll have a good baseline for what to expect of your home in normal operating condition. Anything out of that norm would be a trigger that something is amiss. 
The downside to having all this information handy is that you'll become that dad where you shut doors & lights behind every house occupant, including the dog! :lol:

I won't comment on the Moen Flo as i'll shatter your dreams there too, esp since it's a $500+ device!! But yeah, it's just a shut-off valve that can activate itself when it senses that water is flowing outside of the established 'normal' parameters. I see the value of something like this on irrigation lines as the points of failure are greater there, and water flows & schedules can be better anticipated.

EDIT: I should disclose that I do have the Emporia Vue installed on my 2018-built home, and have the Flo by Moen Water Sensor (not the auto-shutoff valve) installed on my attic AC drip-pan (my condensate line is a bit long and has clogged a few times already, shutting my AC off). This water sensor was offered by my insurance company (Travelers) with an additional discount if installed/activated.


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

avionics12 said:


> I had a Flo by Moen installed in my last home. Once it had "calibrated" to my regular water usage pattern it was a great tool to see where I was using water (mostly lawn irrigation ).
> 
> The real benefit is the leak detection. I received a notice two times alerting me to a leak (Master Bathroom toilet and outside faucet) I was surprised about the outside faucet because I would have never noticed a very slow leak like that.
> 
> ...


While I definitely value being able to monitor my usage, the leak detection is mostly why I want it.

Can you tell me why no moving parts are attractive to the engineering nature? Is it because it's less likely to break? 
Do you know how the Phyn operates then since it doesn't have moving parts?


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

corneliani said:


> I won't comment on the Moen Flo as i'll shatter your dreams there too, esp since it's a $500+ device!! But yeah, it's just a shut-off valve that can activate itself when it senses that water is flowing outside of the established 'normal' parameters. I see the value of something like this on irrigation lines as the points of failure are greater there, and water flows & schedules can be better anticipated.


I do have irrigation, and I would definitely see value in knowing that nothing is awry.



> EDIT: I should disclose that I do have the Emporia Vue installed on my 2018-built home, and have the Flo by Moen Water Sensor (not the auto-shutoff valve) installed on my attic AC drip-pan (my condensate line is a bit long and has clogged a few times already, shutting my AC off). This water sensor was offered by my insurance company (Travelers) with an additional discount if installed/activated.


What does the Moen water sensor do? Let you know if your pan is full?


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## avionics12 (Jul 2, 2018)

turfnsurf said:


> avionics12 said:
> 
> 
> > I had a Flo by Moen installed in my last home. Once it had "calibrated" to my regular water usage pattern it was a great tool to see where I was using water (mostly lawn irrigation ).
> ...


Indeed, it is the no moving parts(less likely to break)that is a driving reason. The impeller in the Flo is easy enough to clean or replace as needed. There are good YT video reviews on both products. The Phyn uses ultrasonic technology to measure the water flow signature of each water pipe path and the fixture at the ends.

I can recommend the Flo by Moen; I am installing Phyn because I want to compare it's accuracy to the Flo and I am adventurous in trying new things.


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## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

avionics12 said:


> Indeed, it is the no moving parts(less likely to break)that is a driving reason. The impeller in the Flo is easy enough to clean or replace as needed. There are good YT video reviews on both products. The Phyn uses ultrasonic technology to measure the water flow signature of each water pipe path and the fixture at the ends.
> 
> I can recommend the Flo by Moen; I am installing Phyn because I want to compare it's accuracy to the Flo and I am adventurous in trying new things.


Do you know when you'll be able to compare the accuracy? I was comparing them last night and I came across something that said the Phyn is more accurate.

Source: https://www.phyn.com/wp-content/uploads/SNWA-Final-Review-on-Leak-Detection-Device-Performance-Testing.pdf


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## avionics12 (Jul 2, 2018)

> Do you know when you'll be able to compare the accuracy? I was comparing them last night and I came across something that said the Phyn is more accurate.


Unfortunately I haven't been able to purchase a Phyn; I'm on the wait list. I suppose it is the usual "supply chain" issue...

You might check this YT channel - Margaret

She does quite a bit of comparison work between the Flo and the Phyn.


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