# Intro and winter nuke question



## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Great site. I've been lurking for a while.

Sorry for length, but background:
Moved into eastern MA house 5 years ago and inherited a horrible lawn and soil. I have spent that time dedicated to improving soil etc. I've got the basics down- milo, urea winterizer, compost topdress, kelp help shampoo, weed control, and infrequent deep watering etc (sprinklers).

The front yard is sunny and now relatively well established KBG. Looking strong.

The 3,500 sq ft backyard, not so much. Half of backyard is okay with ***/TTTF mix. A little thin, but decent progress. The other half is really bad, almost bare dirt. About 1500 sq ft. It's clearly way too shady for the KBG/TTTF (2-3 hrs max sun) to survive on that troubled side.

Being in Boston area, brutal winters. I'm looking to kill the little grass in that bad half. Recommendation/experience on best shade mix or cultivars that will maybe blend with the dark KBG that thrives on the other side of backyard. Does that even exist?

Not ideal I know but, on that side, I'm going to do an initial seeding in spring and gear up for second in fall.

With no snow on ground now, can I nuke that bad half now (round up) in winter? Maybe a dumb question but not sure if winter affects it...

Also, seed price not an issue, given 50 lbs of seed will easily cover both spring and fall seeding. All recommendations welcomed.

Thanks. Again, great site. I look forward to contributing.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Herbicides don't work if the plants aren't actively growing.

Your best bet is to live with the lawn until the end of July, give it a good thorough kill, and seed mid-August.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

And welcome!


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Haha. I knew I was probably missing something obvious but not that obvious...

Anyone have recommendations on the seed?

Other option is I nuke whole back yard and reseed. No problem with that, except it half gets sun, while other does not.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Give this a read through, and/or contact them. They will know best for your locale.

https://ag.umass.edu/turf

If it's a case of too shady for KBG and too harsh of winter for TTTF, you might be looking at a fern garden. :lol:


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Fine fescue grows in the shade. Creeping red fescue. That is a grass type that I am not favorable towards because it has ultra fine blades and looks like nappy hair when it gets long.

I know it grows in the shade but I do not recommend it.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Thanks to both of you. Lots of time spent on UMASS site.

Warnconnor, I completely agree. I'm trying my best to dodge creeping red. I'm willing to try several shade mixes before I ever go with that. I may just need to pick a mix and try. Looking at a Preferred shade mix.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Creeping red is terrible grass.

I was half joking, but I would prefer a fern and hosta shade garden over having a patch of creeping red.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

https://youtu.be/LXqIFtc6cC0

@ 12:30 Rich Imlay recommends Jonathan Greene "Shady Nook" seed.

Might be worth a look.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

I am also attempting a reno in 2018. It was suggested to me to try mazama and bewitched for there color and shade tolerance, both kbg cultivars. Maybe fusebox7 will chime in as he used those in his reno last year,with quite a bit of shade. good luck.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

iowa jim said:


> I am also attempting a reno in 2018. It was suggested to me to try mazama and bewitched for there color and shade tolerance, both kbg cultivars. Maybe fusebox7 will chime in as he used those in his reno last year,with quite a bit of shade. good luck.


Since I just renovated in 2017, it's far too soon to tell how it's doing in the back yard (shade). I've read that you want to give it a full two years in the shade before making any judgments. It's barely established at this point. Now that it will have its first winter dormancy break, spring flush, summer heat/humidity, and fall nourishment, I'll reserve any commentary until at least September.

That said, these two tests in NJ and IL (2006-2010 and 2012-2016, respectively) were the "Dense Shade" trials for KBG. Here are the "Turfgrass Quality" reports from those two trials.

2006-2010: http://www.ntep.org/data/kb05/kb05_11-10f/kb0511ft13.txt
2012-2016: http://www.ntep.org/data/kb11/kb11_17-10f/kb1117ft23.txt

Case in point, Mazama and Bewitched were top scorers in the above trials, and those of us that have chosen to plant them have found them to be the most available to consumers. Many others besides me have had great success with Bewitched in the shade. Jury is still out on Mazama because it's so "new".

*EDIT* one more thing: Turfgrass Quality in NTEP is explained here: _"Quality ratings take into account the aesthetic and functional aspects of the turf. Quality ratings are not based on color alone, but on a combination of color, density, uniformity, texture, and disease or environmental stress. Turfs growing in a study may receive the same numeric quality rating, but the factors influencing that rating may differ. For example, one turf may receive a quality rating value of 5 based on overall color and density, while another may receive the same value based on disease incidence and its impact on turfgrass density."_

(Hint: there are other reports from the same trials that dig into the specific categories eg. color, density, disease, etc., but Turfgrass Quality is an overall great representation of what meets the eye test.)

Hope this helps...


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

I should add that Bewtiched is the main KBG throughout my front yard and the good half of my backyard. I've been very happy with it in those areas.

Clearly, bewitched is easy to source. However, I'm having trouble finding a supplier for Mazama. Maybe it's due to the time of year.

Fuse, do you mind sharing where you purchased it?


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Not to speak for fusebox7, but he said he got his from Long island cauliflower association. not to many sources for mazamba.


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## thytuff1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Any thoughts on tree removal or agressive pruning? Bottom line is that KBG is the worst cool season grass in terms of shade tolerance. I know that it is getting better with some of these new cultivars but it will never get to be as good as fine fescue, or poa annua. My suggestion would be 1) Remove the trees or heavily prune them to allow as much sun as possible reach the turf canopy 2) Follow Sinclair's original post and wait until mid to end of July and apply 2 applications of round up ( at least 7 days apart) and 3) cut a high quality sports mix seed mixture in the area. A sports mix or "high quality lawn" mix will have about 70% KBG (could be Bewitched or a similarly rated cultivar) 20% perennial rye grass (again a highly rated cultivar) and 10% fine fescue. It does not necessarily have to be creeping red fescue either, sometimes hard or sheeps fescue makes up the fine fescue component. This will allow you to apply all three types of seed over the back yard and after some time the fittest grass will predominantly grow in the niches that the back yard environment provides. Generally the KBG will out perform the other two in the full sun portions and the fine fescue will predominante in the shady areas. However ,Creeping red fescue is a popular choice for mixtures or by itself as it is quicker to germinate, will fill in quicker and denser as it has a stloniferous growth habit, and stands up to traffic a little better than the other fine fescues. 
Hope this helps..


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Thytuff1, we spent an entire weekend aggressively pruning trees and taking down a few smaller trees. Most of the canopy looks clean - no branches below ~20 ft.

The real problem on the troubled side of the backyard is that we have a smallish sized area between my house and the neighbor's. However, just that small area has ~10-15 extremely large mature oaks. Plus, our town is extremely aggressive with tree removal/approvals etc. Somewhat moot though brcause most of the offending trees are on neighbors' property not mine. Neighbors are nice but "love the old trees and shade." We pruned everything we could in that area as well. Still shades out the whole area with maybe 2-3 hrs of some sun.

Acorns, squirrels, chipmunks are a whole other discussion...

Since Bewitched is dominate throughout the rest of the yard. I'm leaning to a mix as you suggest, but custom. I'm thinking about 70% bewitched and maxama KBG, 20% PR, and 10% TTTF. I hate creeping red and it will be a total last resort attempt.


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