# I need professional help re: my lawn



## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

What in god's name am I doing wrong here?
I have been trying to put together a lawn for over 3 years now and it's gotten worse! I will be trying especially harder in the spring (I will not wait to the fall again.. I want a lawn now) to grow grass on my property. I am looking through my options and I am looking for your help in choosing one.
Before I get into those options please allow me to share with you a timeline of efforts and thus far, all failures. I want you to be aware of all these slo
Since I have owned the house I have not had a lawn to speak of. When I first got the yard it was about 50% grass and 50% weeds including crab grass. I spent the first year pulling up by hand all the crab grass and putting down moss killer so that I would have a canvas to work with in the fall. I brought in many yards of compost and spread all of that with a rake. I overseeded and watered religiously with little effect. Winter came and I still had a shit yard to work with. Why didn't it grow! The spring came and this time I decided to hire professional help. Had a company come out and he decided to aerate the yard and over seed. I promised to water faithfully and I did just that. Grass everywhere started to come in! I thought I found the solution. So what happened next? Two playful pitbulls eventually ripped out all the young, fragile grass in the back that just started to come up without deep roots. I could not control them. I just couldn't stop them from playing it was too cute. So the back yard mostly ruined but, I was happy to have a front yard coming in. I watched the summer pass and was proud to finally have a fair looking lawn on the left and right of my new drive way. A nice contrast between new pavement and green grass. As the fall came in I noticed the front lawn looking off. So I went over to examine and literally started peeling off patches of grass like a toupee. Wouldn't you know it? Pieces of shit grubs followed by Moles eating those grubs ate through all my hard work. Another year failed. 
The next year I decided to aerate again! So with that meant more existing grass that gets ripped up. I overseeded and even tarped a section of my backyard off from the dogs. I was so proud of the grass that eventually grew in along the side of my house. But alas, the year progressed and the trees up above grew thick and my new grass eventually died off. All of it. 
The summer of 2018 I was truly discouraged and attempted next to nothing. I threw down a ton of grass seed from a huge bag of seed I purchased (it's a low shade low water engineered seed) and it had zero effect. I just thought I was going to be lucky and pay little attention to it and well, nothing happened. I put down nematods to try and kill the grubs. In 2018 however, I did pay near $3,000 to remove huge trees from blocking out much of the sun in my yard. This is especially true of the trees that used to hang over my house and side of the house. Prior to removing the trees I would get sunlight only once as it rose in the morning. The sun would eventually be mostly blocked out as it climbed over and was blocked by my trees but now, following the removal of the trees, I now get a lot of light as it sunsets. So now I will have sun in the morning and evening. I am hoping this will be a game changer for me to grow grass and keep it in 2019.
So with all that out of the way I need for your help to examine my options and make the best choices. NOTE** I am a worker. I am not afraid to put in long hard work. I love it. I have attached several pictures of what my yard currently looks like. It's a hot mess. It's basically a pile of mud, moss and dead grass.

Needs: I would like to grow gross in the spots closest to my house in 2019 and keep it! So when you look at the pictures you will see opportunities directly in front of my house, to the side of my house (again where I now have sunlight) and to the side of my house where there is a hill (the pictures has tons of leaves I am currently blowing into the woods). I don't need to go all the way to the shed this year. 
So without further waiting. 
What type of grass seed do you recommend? I live in Marlborough Massachusetts.
Shall I use early seed fertilizer? I will be using plenty of lime for acidity as there are pines in the neighborhood
I will be watering twice a day. For the back I will fence it off from the dogs and make a route for them that avoids the new grass seed.
Should seed splice and try and keep what little I have? I did have a slight hill in the back and I think renting and using a seed splicer would get it in there so it could grow and not wash away.
Or
Should I just start over with everything (much of nothing is there anyways) and just rototiller up the front, side and back?
Please have a look at the pictures and offer me your best advice. I will put in the work.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Welcome to the forum!

Mass is cool season grass so the mods may end up moving this to appropriate section. Not sure. Anyway, The pictures seem like there is a drainage problem. May not be graded properly. But it's a bit hard to tell. Do you have water puddle up around your yard? Or does it drain off pretty well?

If that were my yard I would personally murder every living thing other than trees and established shrubs. I'd till it up and either do Sod and seed at that stage. Running to lunch sorry for the short reply but I am confident you will get the answers you need on this forum!

PS. Dogs running around in the yard regularly (in my experience) is a surefire way to have inconsistent to non-existent grass.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Agree on the drainage and get rid of the leaves. Need to be vigilant, they'll smother grass over the winter. Looks like a lot of shade as well. Make sure you have a shade tolerant grass? What's your neighbor growing? His looks AOK!

Beyond that it's tough to tell.


Austinite said:


> Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Mass is cool season grass so the mods may end up moving this to appropriate section. Not sure. Anyway, The pictures seem like there is a drainage problem. May not be graded properly. But it's a bit hard to tell. Do you have water puddle up around your yard? Or does it drain off pretty well?
> 
> ...


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Welcome to TLF, @Boofneenee. I moved this over to the cool season side. :thumbup:


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

@Boofneenee I am also in Mass about 30 minutes away, in Chelmsford.

I did a similar project last year. Link is in my signature.

Here are my thoughts
- Drainage looks to be an issue. Can you talk more about if you have pooling of water usually or is that just because of all the rain lately.

- What type of trees did you take down and did you pull the roots. If you took pines and left the roots it is a bit of a up hill battle. But that brings me to my next point.

- I think your first step should be a soil test. The ground is not frozen currently. Look up on YouTube how to do a soil test if you have not done one. You can send the samples off to UMass Extension for testing. A quick google search will get you to the page. Let me know if you don't find it. I am on my phone now but can send a link later.

- you mention putting down lime. Without a soil test this may be hurting you if you do not need lime.

- Do you have irrigation?

- Having fought this battle at my last house, and won it at my new house I have some thoughts but interested in your responses.

- I am by no means and expert, but happy to share my thoughts based on local knowledge.


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Hi,

i dont know how to answer your question accurately about the drainage. It did just rain all night and because I basically have no lawn, roots to absorb and make a carpet it looks extra mucky. I sort of live on a slight hill maybe but im not located towards the bottom. My backyard has a leach field in it which is why you see that abrupt hill there. My neighbor does have a beautiful lawn and he has no irrigation system but he doesnt have nearly as many trees as me. Having said that about the trees, i still get adequate sunlight to the front and off my deck (away from the rock wall). I should be able to get grass to grow there.


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

hi.. thanks for all your help and questions thus far.

I do not have an irrigation system no but I will water my lawn twice a day once i get going. I have like 8 hoses and sprinklers.. I took it seriously these last 3 years or so. Its a mess of tubing haha. I even go out there and move the hoses so they dont make dead lines in the grass.

No the water doesn't really pool that much except for near the side of my house against the rock wall. It can sometimes pool there for sure.

A soil test is something brilliant that I have entertained for a long time. I will do that immediately and report back with the results. Im sure home depot sells kits like that.

As far as pines go.. I have almost all oak tree's surrounding my immediate property. Their is a picture to sure some of them I just cut the tops off. My neighborhood however, does have a ton if pines. If you look at my front lawn (with the road present) you can see a lot of pine needles in the muck


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

@Boofneenee not sure what Home Depot has, but you can dig small amounts up and bag and send directly to UMass. They were cheaper if I remember

Here is a link to a pretty good post on it.





 You can use a spoon or even small spade to pull your samples.

Here is the link to UMass. I actually had it book marked.

https://ag.umass.edu/services/soil-plant-nutrient-testing-laboratory


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

Also, adding compost is good for nutrients but if you have other issues you may need to add actual top soil since the compost will decompose over time.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

jdc_lawnguy has given you some very good advice. He is suggesting the core of a game plan for success. I would add:

Base your plan on short and long term goals, so as to not get ahead of yourself. It seems that a good short term goal is to establish ground cover. Basically, if you can get some decent turf to grow, it should help stabilize the soil. IMHO, I would worry about developing an elite lawn later, and make that a long term goal.

Once your soil test comes back, you can work on addressing nutrient deficiencies.

Seed selection for a spring seeding strategy will be important, as spring seeding is not optimal (fall seeding is best, for root development before the next hot summer). In your situation, it's important to select seed based light levels and quick germination. KBG takes the longest, while PRG takes the shortest to germinate and establish. Fescues (tall-TTTF and fine-FF) are in between. Even though you will have more light after the tree work, you will need to choose carefully amongst PRG and KBG, as most of them prefer full sun. I suggest that you include FF in your mix for shade tolerance. I would suggest purchasing seed from vendors online who supply certified (blue tag) and sod quality (gold tag), with sod quality being the best. The should have no weed seed, so you will hopefully spend less time fighting weeds later on. There are several vendors online, but to name a few in no particular order: Hogan, Preferred Seed, and Seed Suoerstore. I've heard that Bob Hogan is a good resource, but I have not purchased from him. Seed Superstore has an informative website where they cull the information from NTEP-National Turfgrass Evaluation Program. It's good to learn about seed selection there.

I would suggest a sun/shade mix with PRG/KBG/FF, to throw the kitchen sink at it, so to speak. The best shade tolerant KBGs are Mazama and Bewitched (in that order), but they are not nearly as tolerant as FF. I'm not strong on PRG, so you'll have to do some research to find one that has decent shade tolerance. The PRG will pop first and stabilize the soil while the FFs germinate and lastly the KBG. The KBG is basically the only turf that spreads (CRF-creeping red fescue does a little, too). Being in NE, the cold winters may result in winter kill of TTTF and PRG so they're not typically recommended. However, you need the PRG to have something establish, so you don't have a mud puddle for the summer.

There is plenty of info for you to look up on TLF, but to add a couple of more basics: Starter fertilizer with Tenacity (Mesotrione) will allow you to seed and have some weed pre-emergence protection. Milorganite is another good fertilizer that many of us use regularly.

Since spring seeding is difficult, don't be discouraged, and start planning to overseed in the fall around Labor Day weekend (possibly as early as Mid-August for NE). Google NTEP and look up test sites in Mass for some of the best regional cultivars). Also, ken-n-nancy has a lot of good posts on TLF, and is from NE (NH, I think.)

Good luck and welcome to TLF!


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I forgot to add:

Look up seeding techniques. Many of us cover our seed with peat moss. You can rent or buy a peat moss roller, which gives a thin, even coat (and is much more desirable than slinging it with a shovel). Also, consider seeding mulch, seed tackifier, seeding blankets and straw as options for slopes. Again, there is plenty info on TLF to look up.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome.

I will add to the advice given, please don't use a home Depot kit. They are just not as accurate.

In the soil folder there is a list of labs that you could use (that most of us use). There is also sampling techniques (the more samples the best).

The trees and their shade could be a problem. Grass needs sun to grow.

Lastly, give the cool season guide a read and ask questions. This is normally our low season, so responses are slower.


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

In addition to Milorginite you can get Bay State Fert locally in mass. You have to make a run to Quincy, but it is cheap either 2.75 or 3.75 a bag. They keep kind of odd hours, but the guy who runs it (Carl) is very helpful.

http://www.mwra.state.ma.us/03sewer/html/baystate.htm


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

this is all very helpful information. Thank you to all. I will get the results of my soil test and follow up.


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

To rototill or not to rototill. That is the question.

I'm gearing up to make another attempt this season to grow grass. The backyard, as you can see from the pics, is a disaster. The winter has been a nightmare keeping the deck and the house free of mud. Without any grass the dogs get their paws all muddy and track that everywhere!

So, to till or not to till.

My plan was to rototill, plant a ton of different seed. Mostly fast germinating blue Grass. I am going to use a tackifier and dirt on top of the seed so that I can get grass on that hill.

I will be fencing off the yard so the dogs will have no access. Screw them already. If I can ruff up the yard enough without renting a rototiller then I should be golden. Right?

My dilemma is the last two years, come the spring, I have a field of leafy type cabbage that grows all over. It's a newer development.

If I till will that kill the cabbage plants that are very large and occupy space and may grow up and kill the baby grass? Or,

Will the new grass block out the sun to the cabbage and stay mostly intact? I've read that tilling may only spread the seed around and not prevent the weeds. Perhaps the cabbage type weeds are root based or perhaps not?

The weed, I see is round and shaped like a cabbage and it just loves my hill

Thanks in advance


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Here are photos from when I tilled and seeded April 29


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Did the tilling April 29th and the seeding in the pics above


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)




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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Planted mostly FF and CBG shade tolerant versions with fertilizer. Did not use much of the fast growing seeds which was probably a mistake. As you can see the weeds are growing well before the grass came in. These pics are may 26 so almost one month later.

Watering twice a day


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)




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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

And finally these are from June 9th a day before my first cut.

I'm dialing back the watering to every two days to develop deeper roots. I'm trying to cut twice a week.

I haven't used anything else since the first seeding.

As you can see and as predicted a ton of weeds.

Any game plan between now and the fall when I plan to use an herbicide and then overseed?

What recommend watering schedule. Anything safe to use to treat weeds now given the timeline?


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

And here is June 9th. The day before my first cut.

I have reduced my watering schedule to once every two days to encourage root development. I'm trying to cut twice a week. The weeds are insane me as predicted by you all.

I'm going to continue with this current regimen. I will add some more grass seed fertilizer (as I'm sure the weeds are sucking up nutes) I will add another round of pesticide soon as the grubs are strong here.

I'm gonna keep going as is until the fall when I plan to use an herbicide so I can prep for overseeding.

Any recommendations? Anything to treat weeds and not hurt grass?


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

And here is June 9th. The day before my first cut.

I have reduced my watering schedule to once every two days to encourage root development. I'm trying to cut twice a week. The weeds are insane me as predicted by you all.

I'm going to continue with this current regimen. I will add some more grass seed fertilizer (as I'm sure the weeds are sucking up nutes) I will add another round of pesticide soon as the grubs are strong here.

I'm gonna keep going as is until the fall when I plan to use an herbicide so I can prep for overseeding.

Any recommendations? Anything to treat weeds and not hurt grass?


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## dunc (Jan 6, 2019)

I couldn't see a way to build a proper dog fence when I did my reno. So I did nothing and ended up with some high traffic areas where nothing grew.

The solution was some sticks connected with string. This was not at all dog proof but it reduced their traffic enough to allow the seed to get established.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Boofneenee said:


> I have attached several pictures of what my yard currently looks like. It's a hot mess. It's basically a pile of mud, moss and dead grass.


Dude! Hah! Hahaha! What a riot!  Man! You just made my evening. That is so funny...

Forgive me. I know you are frustrated.

I was reading your post and stopped right at this quote and jumped to your pictures. After looking at them, the first thing I thought was that this guy is in New Hampshire. HAD to be! The pictures SO have that rural NH look to it. How many "lawns" like that have I seen?...

Then I jumped to your profile: Nope, Massachusetts. Darn! SO close... And then your profile... where it lists grass type and you said, "I don't have grass."

I DIED laughing. Boy, you sure don't have grass!

SO funny... classic. Sorry about that, brother. But I bet you have GREAT soil. And you know what? That's the BEST start you could ever hope for... especially now that you took out the trees.

What's your next step, you ask?...

SOIL TEST!

Let everything settle down for *two months*. Seriously. Don't do nuthin'! Drink beer. THEN!... Get your soil tested by UMass.

Your *ULTIMATE PLAN OF ACTION* begins Labor Day weekend with...

1. Send soil sample to UMass.
2. Drop your seed.

While you are drinking beer and doing nothing, read about how to test your soil. Get your soil testing stuff and read about testing soil. Heck, practice taking a bunch of soil samples if you get the heeby-jeebies. But, a soil test is a must.

OH!... while you are drinking beer, doing nothing, reading and studying about soil samples, and practicing taking soil samples... start reading and studying about what kind of grass you should grow.

Since you will be starting fresh without any grass, read about a *fall renovation*! Study about a monostand because that's where the elite live.

So... you say you are a worker. You love working... you don't mind putting in the work... work towards an elite, monostand of the exact type of grass you should grow for your location! And...

It all starts with your soil. And you have GREAT soil! Study your soil. Get it tested! Order the WORKS from UMass. Get a CLEAN sample. Find out if you have sand, clay, silt (my bet), or loam.

Study that soil to DEATH! Your soil studying and sampling will pay HUGE DIVIDENDS as soon as this fall.

Mark me... many a man would die for a chance to start clean like you. Don't waste this opportunity. Do the hard work on the foundation! The foundation is your soil. Pump up that soil. Work it. Make it your female dog. "Who's your Daddy?"

That soil, man... OWN that soil. We have great stuff in Massachusetts. Make it priority #1 for this summer's work.

Murph

P.S.: I will bet dollars to doughnuts that you are French-Canadian. "Frenchies" are workers. Nothing is impossible for them when they put their minds to it. It just takes them 5-6 times to get it right but... it all ends well when the dust settles. I loves me some Frenchies.


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

BXMurphy said:


> Boofneenee said:
> 
> 
> > I have attached several pictures of what my yard currently looks like. It's a hot mess. It's basically a pile of mud, moss and dead grass.
> ...


Well I'm glad i made your evening! Makes me happy to see someone so excited about another person's opportunity.

After reading your post I do not think you read my most recent posts that brought this old post back to the top. If you keep reading you will see this Portuguese dude and his Italian wife did the work I late April and now we have grass. Or, well grass and lots and lots of weeds and I think several heads of cabbage.

So I'm at a different place then what you first saw and I have attached updated images for reference.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Sorry about that... the line in your profile had me roaring after reading your tale of woe.

I did read more... good job! Feels good, huh?

Did you finally get your soil tested?

B


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I suggest reading the labels on any products (especially pesticides and herbicides) you're thinking about using and see what they say about use on new grass. If they don't say, do some research. Summer is not a good time to use fertilizer on cool season grass. Even for well established grass, you should not be pushing growth in the summer. Your goal instead is survival. Fall is a better time to plant than spring because the new grass roots are so small, very vulnerable to heat and drought, and because summer weeds will outcompete the grass. Much less weed pressure in the fall. But at least you do have something growing now. This fall mulch mow the leaves every few days so they are chopped up in tiny bits. They are good organic matter but you can't leave them on the grass as whole leaves.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

@Boofneenee nice job bringing back your yard. I have the same tree canopy as you do and I'm just west of you north of Worcester. The best thing right now is to keep up watering while working along with rain storms and wait until the end of August before you start any new seed. 
I would wait at least 4-6 weeks after fertilization before sending a soil sample to UMass this will give a better snap shot of the soil conditions.


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> I suggest reading the labels on any products (especially pesticides and herbicides) you're thinking about using and see what they say about use on new grass. If they don't say, do some research. Summer is not a good time to use fertilizer on cool season grass. Even for well established grass, you should not be pushing growth in the summer. Your goal instead is survival. Fall is a better time to plant than spring because the new grass roots are so small, very vulnerable to heat and drought, and because summer weeds will outcompete the grass. Much less weed pressure in the fall. But at least you do have something growing now. This fall mulch mow the leaves every few days so they are chopped up in tiny bits. They are good organic matter but you can't leave them on the grass as whole leaves.


You raised a question I had. Should I be bagging my lawn clippings now or is it better to mulch it during the summer months. Thanks


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## Boofneenee (Jan 5, 2019)

Jdaniel611 said:


> @Boofneenee nice job bringing back your yard. I have the same tree canopy as you do and I'm just west of you north of Worcester. The best thing right now is to keep up watering while working along with rain storms and wait until the end of August before you start any new seed.
> I would wait at least 4-6 weeks after fertilization before sending a soil sample to UMass this will give a better snap shot of the soil conditions.


Yea, I ended up buying a kit from Amazon but have yet to use it 
https://www.amazon.com/Luster-Leaf-1601-Rapitest-Soil/dp/B0000DI845/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?keywords=soil+testing+kit&qid=1562003712&s=gateway&sprefix=soil+testing&sr=8-3

It has been strongly encouraged that I do some extensive reading up on soil conditions whilest I drink many a beer.

This kit tests for the main four main nutrients we read about. I'll run that kit when I return from vaca and share the results.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Mulch your lawn clippings now and always, in general. They will provide nutrients to your grass, reducing the need for fertilizer. There may be times to collect them, like if you have disease that could spread.

What are you doing about watering while you're on vacation?

I don't know what got into BX with his post (apparently he was greatly amused and took off on a tear) and I didn't think he was being helpful (you were asking about how to treat your new lawn, not what to do about no grass); maybe he was under the influence of what he was encouraging you to do? Maybe it was the cabbages? (I'm puzzling over that. Can you perhaps just pull them up?) In any event, soil tests will help you select fertilizer if you need phosphorus or potassium and let you know whether you need lime or should avoid it. I'm not familiar with the soil test you got but would expect University of Massachusetts or a soil testing company to be able to give better recommendations. But since you already have it you might as well use it. Don't expect any of us to be able to interpret the results as we don't know their process. They may also give recommendations for only one fertilizer application, not the whole year so it may not be particularly useful. And I doubt they are tailoring their recommendations to specific regions and kinds of grass. You can always do a more conventional soil test later on.


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