# High Calcium, Sulfur and High pH



## doogie89 (Apr 29, 2019)

I am in the process of ordering a Logan Labs soil test. I did a Soil Savvy test in July 2018 before we put sod down. I did another Soil Savvy test in early September 2019 with the sod being established for one year now. I was having a hard time believing my pH dropped from 8.14 to 7.15 in a year only using Milorganite and Carbon X. It's still a little high but not terrible. I notice no matter how much fertilizer I put into the lawn, I just can't get that deep dark green color. I water regularly to get that 1" per week. I know Sulfur helps lower pH but I already have high levels of sulfur. Calcium and Magnesium seem to be through the roof, so I stopped using Milorganite for now. What's the best approach for this lawn? Should I start using ammonium sulfate fertilizer? I attached a picture of the yard. It's uniform looking and green but it's not that dark green I am hoping for. During the day it looks more of a lime green.

Here is what I've put down so far:

April 2019 - full milorganite app
May 2019 - carbon x at 3lb per k
Late June 2019 - full milorganite app
End August 2019 - carbon x at 3lb per k


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

Rely on the Logan labs test rather than soil savvy and ensure your samples are pulled from the same depth for all subsequent testing as depth changes will skew results. Ammonium sulfate will help in the short term and probable release some locked up nutrients for a short time as will citric acid, but neither will actually correct the issue long term.
I don't know the science enough to explain it, but I believe elemental sulfer does not add to the sulfer in the soil. I think I heard that either from either @Greendoc or Matt Martin from @thegrassfactor on his weekly show. I believe it was this one, but I am not sure. Sorry I don't have a timestamp for you but I think it was in the second half. Edit, the second part of his answer can be found at 53:27 the first part must be in the first half of the video or I missed it while skimming.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Almost. Both sulfate based fertilizers and elemental sulfur raise the S levels in soil. However, it is elemental sulfur that is known for acidifying soil. It is true that there is no permanent correction for high pH, but it is a worthy endeavor to work on pH. A combination of Citric Acid treatments, spoon feeding Ammonium Sulfate as your N source and applying elemental Sulfur all improve the situation vs ignoring it.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I am not an expert on pH correction, but both of your reports suggest an NPK Ratio. Milorganaite nor Carbon X have this NPK, not even close! 
2. You barely give your bluegrass the amount of N needed to ...be ok. If you want it to get to the next level, up your game with at least 4lbs of N/M for the season.
Your Fe is low. Do the FAS apps. There is a long tread about it.
Humic/Fulvic acid and Kelp are on the long run, but Humic will buffer pH to some extent (don't expect miracles, even less, overnight).
Get a 10-10-10 or 15-15-15 and start using this until your P and K get up.
There are more focused products on the market that will aim those deficiency in a more controlled way (with no N in it)


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## doogie89 (Apr 29, 2019)

Babameca said:


> I am not an expert on pH correction, but both of your reports suggest an NPK Ratio. Milorganaite nor Carbon X have this NPK, not even close!
> 2. You barely give your bluegrass the amount of N needed to ...be ok. If you want it to get to the next level, up your game with at least 4lbs of N/M for the season.
> Your Fe is low. Do the FAS apps. There is a long tread about it.
> Humic/Fulvic acid and Kelp are on the long run, but Humic will buffer pH to some extent (don't expect miracles, even less, overnight).
> ...


About a week after I got this test I put down 1 lb of N per 1,000 square feet of a 12-12-12 fertilizer. Then about 4 weeks later I did another pound of it. I was trying to hit it hard this fall to get those levels up to par. I plan to hit it hard with some ammonium sulfate fertilizer again in a few weeks. Then come spring time I will see how the lawn is responding and will keep up with the 12-12-12 to get my NPK to where it needs to be. This is all brand new construction lots so the soil we started with was lacking all nutrients. I realize it will take time to balance them out but I want to make sure I'm on the right track. I realized about a year after we put the sod down that Milo is not the right fert for my situation yet because of the super high levels of calcium and the low levels of N and K.


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## doogie89 (Apr 29, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Almost. Both sulfate based fertilizers and elemental sulfur raise the S levels in soil. However, it is elemental sulfur that is known for acidifying soil. It is true that there is no permanent correction for high pH, but it is a worthy endeavor to work on pH. A combination of Citric Acid treatments, spoon feeding Ammonium Sulfate as your N source and applying elemental Sulfur all improve the situation vs ignoring it.


For spoon feeding with ammonium sulfate, do you recommend like a 0.50 pound of N every 2 weeks or something like that?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

O.1-0.25 lb N every 14-30 days. Grass does not need as much N as you think


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## doogie89 (Apr 29, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> O.1-0.25 lb N every 14-30 days. Grass does not need as much N as you think


I think my plan for the rest of this growing season will be to get one more pound of N down of 12-12-12 and then starting next spring continue to put down the 0.25 pounds N of ammonium sulfate every couple of weeks in the spring and then maybe once a month during the summer. What are your thoughts on the N-Ext biostim products? I was putting those down this past growing season each month. I figured those would aid in building up the soil quality.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> O.1-0.25 lb N every 14-30 days. Grass does not need as much N as you think


I am certainly not an expert and from all the material I have read so far those amounts will make KBG starve. Keep in mind, we, up North, only have 4 months of growing season. There are plenty of factors that may contribute to N overdose or deficiency.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Babameca said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > O.1-0.25 lb N every 14-30 days. Grass does not need as much N as you think
> ...


What makes you so certain that those N rates would be insufficient? 0.1 -0.25 lbs every 14- 30 days is a rather broad range.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Ridgerunner Many University studies. *** needs 4-6lbs per season at high maintenance. Giving it a 4-5 months growing season (of which 1 month is high temp/high humidity and to skip fert). Pushing too hard in Spring also has its drawbacks. The window for N becomes so narrow, that there is a reason for the N blitz. Even at your highest suggested rate at 0.5N per month, *** is not going to total enough nitrogen for the season here. I have 6 weeks of really perfect temps to get 2/3 of total N down. Your formula does not work for me, nor for anyone above the median.
I am sure, someone with an average expectations will be ok. But then he will never throw fert so often, but probably once/twice a year...


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If you have above average expectations and are mowing reel low, too much Nitrogen becomes your enemy.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> If you have above average expectations and are mowing reel low, too much Nitrogen becomes your enemy.


I agree...but
How much is too much? Season total. if 4lbs is too much, I may have to scratch everything I have seen. If not...well, my above comment sticks. If someone here (or anywhere) can suggest a Canadian basic fert schedule, when snow melts in late April/early May and first frost just happened, I will be glad to try it. I am afraid we went off the OP subject...
I may involve few folks that, I hope will chime in. @Harts @Sinclair @SNOWBOB11 @Stuofsci02


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Babameca


> Your formula does not work for me, nor for anyone above the median.


Which of my formulas is that?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Ridgerunner My bad! The 0.25 every 2 weeks formula. What is your formula for success. The more sources, the better. Thanks and sorry again.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Babameca If I wasn't so lazy, it'd be a version of this:
http://www.files.asianturfgrass.com/201306_growth_potential.pdf
I think @g-man and a few others were working with GD, not sure how deep they got into GP and N. Maybe they/he has some info to share.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I do follow the GP, but it is not perfect in the correlation to nitrogen inputs, mainly because the soil releases nitrogen from OM decay. A better system is to monitor and control clippings yields. A target of around 1L/sqm seems to be about right, but I'm lazy and I need to figure an easy way to collect them.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Ridgerunner Awesome reading, tanks! @g-man That's metric! :lol: I got it. Maybe measuring 1-2 times and then gage based on bucket fills per some 'pilot' area...


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I can't remember if I read it in this thread or another, but sometimes perhaps we try chasing down a perfect number or formula for success; when the truth is there isn't one. I have said this many times before, in lawn care, there are very few absolutes. I stopped keeping track of the amount of N I apply. I know I will be somewhere around 4lbs this year. Not much more and not much less.

I don't want to get off track from the OP's questions. I just wanted to address @Babameca's post above.

@doogie89 your last question was about getting a darker green. Try FAS if you haven't already. It has been a game changer for me with regards to colour this year. Here is the link to the FAS for Cool Season grass, if you haven't read it already.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@Babameca I imagine the N rate would be quite dependent on turf use and current condition. The higher rates are used on golf courses where it's constantly being walked on and damaged. If yours is ornamental and you don't need it to fill in anymore, a low rate sounds just fine. I would supplement with micros and iron to help maintain color though. Also, we aren't harvesting a crop so why push more growth? In my neck of the woods, there are companies maintaining TTTF at 1.25 lbs/N/M over an 8 month growing period. That's a pretty low rate of N per month, yet the lawns are green. I definitely wouldn't do this for a sports field or golf course though. Also, your fungicide plan should be strong and ph and macros not deficient before going to such low rates.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@g-man @Suburban Jungle Life @Harts @Ridgerunner Thank you all guys to chime in(and help me to completely hijack the OP tread, or maybe not :lol. Next year will be first full season on low HOC and I am anxious. I will definitely experiment (based on science) and will open a separate post/use my journal, when the time comes. I am a big fan, in general, to work on the soil and let the soil take care of the grass and this will majorly influence my seasonal choice of products to work with. From the Sustane line of ferts to humic/fluvic and TriKelp (3 varieties of seaweed) to micros blend with aminos and peptides to...pure Urea and FAS, all depending on what my soil test will show next spring and how the grass will respond. Cheers!


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