# 2017 Fall Nitrogen



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lets start the thread for this year. Here is the link to the article: http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753

The midwest had a fairly wet and cool summer. Temperatures are currently hovering in the danger zone for fungus, but we had our share of cool nights. Two things: 1) fall PreM is really a most and 2) I think we will be able to start sooner (at least in the midwest).

To elaborate on the PreM. Normally the summer heat kills most of the Poa annua. The rains and the not so hot weather allowed some of the Poa to survive and I've seen some seed heads. The PreM applied in the spring has lost/will soon loose the protection it was giving. The Poa will soon drop those seeds and will germinate. It will go dormant in the winter and show it self in the spring. I recommend an application of PreM now to break the Poa annua cycle.

References:
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-41-W.pdf

01Aug2017 - Definitely in the shedding period in Indy. The cool temps have helped. Fhe extended forecast shows that fall is here. I started to apply organic sources (cracked corn) since they take some time to break down.

06aug2017-my lawn is done with the shedding. I started dropping Milo to get things going. Fungus is still a concern.


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## Vols_fan08 (Jul 10, 2017)

Will this keep out the wild onion/garlic for the whole winter also? My yard gets crazy with this winter annual.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

I plan on spraying Tenacity after the quick up-tick of mid 80s weather breaks later this week. Prodiamine will follow shortly. Remember, I did a spring/summer reno so this Tenacity app is my "60 day mark" application. Since I started spreading out my watering schedule, I noticed the Poa Annua starting to die off a bit but it will be back soon, so I plan on getting a barrier down ASAP.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Vols_fan08 said:


> Will this keep out the wild onion/garlic for the whole winter also? My yard gets crazy with this winter annual.


I dont think any of the PreM works with wild onions. Those need round up. Pulling is somewhat effective if you could get all the bulbs.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Try the proplugger for wild onion.
https://youtu.be/BpR7tsUbIc0


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## Vols_fan08 (Jul 10, 2017)

g-man said:


> Vols_fan08 said:
> 
> 
> > Will this keep out the wild onion/garlic for the whole winter also? My yard gets crazy with this winter annual.
> ...


That's just awesome :|


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

well, I did buy prodiamine this year, for this task in particular. One question. If I have some poa t I need to rid myself of, do I spray it with round up, wait for browning and then apply prodiamine to avoid the marked areas?

Or, leave the poa t and wait for spring, targeting the bigger pest in a poa A take over.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would deal with poa trivia as soon as I see it. No point in letting it get a hold of you lawn.

If you have kbg, then it will spread and fill the holes. If you want to overseed, then yes avoid those areas. I would even take some of the soil out at seed time and replace it with bagged soil.


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

I'm thinking of overloading the lawn with Milorganite like fertilizer this fall at 1/2 pound of N per 1.000 per week untill temperatures drop below 5 C.
Any thoughts on the damage it might do?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't see a problem with your approach other than 5C. As temperature drops milogarnite will struggle to be broken down by the microbes. I would stop sooner (8-9c). Since you are applying a high rate, you want to it absorbed by the soil this year instead of next.


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

Good point.
Should I be looking at average air temperatures, highs, lows or soil temperatures?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you could get soil temp, then 55f temp. Here is info on milogarnite. In my area I stop milo around late sept.

http://www.milorganite.com/using-milorganite/how-it-works


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

Good, I wil do that.
Thanks.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

What about synthetic nitrogen, besides the late fall winterizer


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

? Could you clarify?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Non organic fertilizer.

I have a bag of 25-x-x I bought as a summer application, till I came here and learned not to put it down.

So I saved it and will use now.

Then add Milo

And then at the end of season add winterizer, in which case I use synthetic starter fertilizer, as a final app before winter


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes you could use it. If you go to the bag it will tell you the percent of fast acting vs slow. Some times they call it water soluble vs coated or slow release. Avoid using slow release into late Sept. since it takes longer to break down. You could apply 4lb/k of that product in a month.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Updated the post to reflect current conditions for Indy.


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## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> What about synthetic nitrogen, besides the late fall winterizer


Many people use synthetics all year round. It's not pure evil, but in general we don't put it down mid summer because most lawns are stressed this time of year from the heat and lack of water. If you keep it sealed, you can save it for whenever you decide it's time to use synthetic. I use it spring/fall personally, in addition to milorganite.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I use urea at 0.5 lbs N/thousand every 2 weeks through fall/winter. I typically add some potassium sulfate to it, and ferrous sulfate on occasion for color.


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

You have to keep it sealed?
How about keeping it in a cool dry room?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

GrassDaddy said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> > What about synthetic nitrogen, besides the late fall winterizer
> ...


Wasn't thinking it was evil, more just about how to combine the 2. I was a synthetic only guy up till this year. Might throw it down this week then switch to Milo


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You have already applied a synthetic fertilizer recently and are trying to avoid water. Skip the fertilizer for now. The "intensive nitrogen" (in the other thread) that G-man was referring to is urea at 1 lb/k weekly starting in mid to late August. It has to be watered in after each application. If you're not doing that (which requires lots of mowing and I don't think it will help your Prodiamine problem anyway--you will be putting further stress on already stressed roots), you should not exceed 1 lb/k of nitrogen a month. For the 25-0-06, that's 4 lb/k. For Milorganite, that's 20 lb/k. If you combine the two, you should lower the rates accordingly. Synthetics should be watered in. Milorganite does not have to be watered in.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> You have already applied a synthetic fertilizer recently and are trying to avoid water. Skip the fertilizer for now. The "intensive nitrogen" (in the other thread) that G-man was referring to is urea at 1 lb/k weekly starting in mid to late August. It has to be watered in after each application. If you're not doing that (which requires lots of mowing and I don't think it will help your Prodiamine problem anyway--you will be putting further stress on already stressed roots), you should not exceed 1 lb/k of nitrogen a month. For the 25-0-06, that's 4 lb/k. For Milorganite, that's 20 lb/k. If you combine the two, you should lower the rates accordingly. Synthetics should be watered in. Milorganite does not have to be watered in.


I do not know why that post says this morning. I posted that last week some time, before I went and screwed everything up over the weekend.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Labor day less than week away, so lets officially welcome the all out blitz with nitrogen. If you are not in a reno ir overseed, go ahead and give it a light dose to wake up the lawn from the summer dormancy.

I dropped around 0.4lb N/k yesterday as a storm cloud was approaching. The 0.6in rain watered it all in.

_The Blitz_
The Blitz refers to bombing by the Luftwaffe (German Air Force) over Britain in 1940 and 1941, during the Second World War. The term was first used by the British press as an abbreviation of Blitzkrieg (lightning war). Source wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blitz


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

g-man said:


> I would deal with poa trivia as soon as I see it. No point in letting it get a hold of you lawn.
> 
> If you have kbg, then it will spread and fill the holes. If you want to overseed, then yes avoid those areas. I would even take some of the soil out at seed time and replace it with bagged soil.


is poa t this bad that even after spraying with roundup it can stick around?


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> is poa t this bad that even after spraying with roundup it can stick around?


Yup - those stolons are zombies... this is after glyphosate-ing a huge patch last year:


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

Getting ready to overseed roughly 56 sqm, and feeding everything with 5 gN/sqm of organic fertilizer 3 weeks after previous aplication. We have temperatures between 12 and 25 C, so I guess I can start.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> > is poa t this bad that even after spraying with roundup it can stick around?
> ...


Ugh!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Reviving an old thread. The Midwest had a very weird weather. It's been dry and hot. Reading from other folks, it been also hot or above normal in other areas.

Since the weather was not cooperating, I have maintained my nitrogen to organic sources and 0.5lbN/M (M = 1000sqft) per month. I have also adjusted the rachio settings to a crop factor of 0.90.

We started to cool off and the trend continues to show cooler temperatures. The lawn has reacted accordingly and it is very nice and dense. I will hit it heavy with Milo this weekend before it gets too cold for Milo.

What are you guys seeing? Similar experiences?


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## Eric (Aug 15, 2017)

Yep same here, last week we had upper 80s into the 90s, this week we've cooled off showing mid to upper 70s again next week. Put .675lbs/n down 2 weeks ago of Milo and doing the same this weekend. Then it's either Urea or the Menards fert I have left for the last apps of the year.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

g-man said:


> What are you guys seeing? Similar experiences?


Yes, seeing the same thing here in NJ.

I paused my Urea apps last week in favor of organics, but might start it up again this weekend.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I haven't fertilized this fall and it's looking like it might not be need. I was very aggressive the past 3 years.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

g-man said:


> What are you guys seeing? Similar experiences?


Lack of rain has been the biggest issue in northern Illinois, and the week of 90's last week didn't help either. Everything in the area has been pretty much dormant since mid August. And no real rain forecast anytime soon. If you don't have a way to irrigate you could forget about any fall N here. For me it hasn't been an issue since I have irrigation and have been putting down urea weekly on the reno since early September.

I know grass in general is fairly tough, but with avg first frost 2 weeks away, how much of a disadvantage would a lawn be at if it has been dormant since mid August and doesn't come out of it before November when it normally would stop its topgrowth? Might be a possibility for some lawns up here...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ this is a great point Pete. A dormant lawn that is not ready for winter might cause some problems. It might thin out if it is a cold windy winter since it is already dry. Poor root development will not be good. This will be an interesting case study.

I've been irrigating like it is summer. The bill will be high. Some of my neighbors have mowed once since July and have not even irrigated once.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

g-man said:


> What are you guys seeing? Similar experiences?


Hot and muggy the past week in Mass. Taste of fall next few days with 65° F days dropping to 45° F nights. Will bounce back to 75° F shortly.

Will use up the last of my Milo this weekend and will spoonfeed blitz in 2-3 weeks until mid-November or so.

I'm new, got a late start, and spent the summer tearing out some Bad Idea Shrubs and Roses to expand the lawn and start with a clean slate.

Now... NEXT year... HAH! I'm going to prep for an experimental renovation. I've never done that before but am confident from what I've learned at TLF.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> Will use up the last of my Milo this weekend and will spoonfeed blitz in 2-3 weeks until mid-November or so.


A couple thoughts:

* You must be within about 50 miles of us. I think your "nitrogen blitz" plans are shifted late by a few weeks. I started light "blitz" urea apps on Sept 5th, although my interval has been 10 days due to the hot weather. I think you should be starting the blitz now, if you haven't already, and should plan to be finished with it and in the midst of the "slow-down" well before the end of October. My "normal" nitrogen blitz would be from the beginning of September through the first week of October, but I'll shift that a little later due to the abnormal weather so far this autumn.

* If you haven't already heard of the availability of Bay State Fertilizer, it is a Boston-sourced equivalent to Milorganite. It's $3.50 per 40-pound bag if you pick it up directly at the manufacturing facility in Quincy, MA. The fact that you have a 2500 sqft lawn is nice - one bag of Bay State Fertilizer is a nice application rate for 2500 sqft. You may want to look into it for next year.


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## ales_gantar (Apr 13, 2017)

- mowed two days ago (after a week), collected a full collecter (the part at the back of the lawn mower that collects clippings) and dropped my first round of synthetic Fall Blitz fertilizer at about a pound per 1k.
- today I mowed and collected a full collecter. Seriously, I don't know what it's called in english.

And the grass looks like it is enjoying it. As am I, beacuse I like the grass green and I like to mow. This is probably what heroine high must feel like.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

ales_gantar said:


> - mowed two days ago (after a week), collected a full collecter (the part at the back of the lawn mower that collects clippings) and dropped my first round of synthetic Fall Blitz fertilizer at about a pound per 1k.
> - today I mowed and collected a full collecter. Seriously, I don't know what it's called in english.


We normally just call it the "bag". If you hear someone say they bagged when they mowed then they collected the clippings.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> I think your "nitrogen blitz" plans are shifted late by a few weeks.
> 
> ...
> 
> * If you haven't already heard of the availability of Bay State Fertilizer, it is a Boston-sourced equivalent to Milorganite.


You are about 45 minutes from me while I am 45 minutes from Quincy. I learned about Bay State Fertilizer shortly after learning about Milorganite earlier this year. What an amazing discovery and exciting journey into the world of amazing lawns.

I'll be all about that stuff next year. I'll be happy to grab some for you if you like. It will cut your trip in half.

I started with Milo's "Holiday Schedule" suggestion. It seemed pretty cool at the time... especially as I didn't know anything else. I think it's a great way to help my family and friends get started, at the very least.

After reading of your experience, I'll save my last bag of Milo for next year and get on the urea this weekend. I've been dying to try that!

It's fun being a newbie. There are so many new things to try out and worry about.  Thank you for your reply.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ BX, I think you could still use the Milo like this week. If the soil temp should be warm enough due to the weird weather we are having this year.

The main point that I think K&N were trying to convey is that for your area, mid November is too late for fertilizer. It would be too late for my area and I'm several miles south. The idea is to let the lawn naturally slow down.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> You are about 45 minutes from me while I am 45 minutes from Quincy. I learned about Bay State Fertilizer ...
> I'll be all about that stuff next year. I'll be happy to grab some for you if you like. It will cut your trip in half.


That's very kind of you! However, you'd need to have a big vehicle, as last year I purchased 35 bags, which was down from 54 the year before...



BXMurphy said:


> ... I'll save my last bag of Milo for next year and get on the urea this weekend.


Personally, I like saving one application of Bay State (or Milorganite) for the first application of the next spring. It's good to let the grass wake up slowly, and with Bay State requiring microbial activity to break down the nitrogen into a plant-usable form, the grass isn't suddenly given a whole lot of nitrogen in the spring, but gets the nitrogen more gradually as the microbes in the soil wake up, too...


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

A video from The Grass Factor suggested that another benefit of Fall Nitrogen Blitz was building root mass that will break down at some point and add to organic matter in the soil.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> A video from The Grass Factor suggested that another benefit of Fall Nitrogen Blitz was building root mass that will break down at some point and add to organic matter in the soil.


I heard that from MorpheousPA too, but I could not find any research about it. It makes sense to some degree, but the root mass is tiny compare with the rest of the soil. It would take years to make a significant difference.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

At the least, it points to why a healthy, vigorously growing lawn is so important. It looks nice and in the end, is easier to care for.

Man, what I'm going through here just to whip into shape the existing lawn...

I'm jealous of the guys who say they don't have a problem with this or that and... when they do, they just nuke and reseed an area.

I put down my last bag o' Milo. The microbugs will have released about half the N in 3 weeks. I'll spoonfeed urea around Oct 21. Wait for slow down. Then I'll hit with 1 lb/k urea a week or so after top growth ceases and call it a year.

Thanks for the help!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Most of us should be past the point of applying nitrogen and should now be waiting for top growth to stop.

Some(ABC123) will have a hard time mowing to figure out if top grow has stopped.

https://twitter.com/northflwx/status/923654897442189314

We had a very weird weather this year. I've seen some really nice lawns that took advantage of the approach. For the first timers, next spring normally shows a marked early green up compared to other lawns.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

g-man said:


> Some will have a hard time mowing to figure out if top grow has stopped.


Great post! I probably won't be mowing in the white-out... 

Timely, though... I'm waiting through my first slow down. Had 2" of rain over the past two days. Will maintain my mow low tomorrow. Another slug of rain coming Sunday-Monday. Mowing... waiting... patience... growth stop... urea at a pound/M... water in when it's frosty out... spring will be awesome!


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Got about 3in of snow today.


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

Hello everyone,

Been reading through some things, I love the knowledge here. Thanks for all of it.

I have some TurfBuilder left over from my personal N blitz. We're getting rained on now in NE Ohio. Would it be too late to apply the last of my N (other than dormant app) this weekend?

It's cooling off, but looking like were going to have a week or so of mid 50's and rain.

Thanks everyone!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to the site.

Does the turf builder has a slow release nitrogen in it? If so, I would say no. You might be a few days off for even a fast release application.


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

Thanks g-man. I think Scotts TurfBuilder is about 75% fast release.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

GoPre said:


> Thanks g-man. I think Scotts TurfBuilder is about 75% fast release.


That's about right. The 32-0-4 Scotts TurfBuilder that I have indicates on the label that it is an overall 23% fast-release and overall 9% slow release.

In other words, 72% (23/32) of the nitrogen is fast-release and 28% (9/32) is slow-release.

So, if one applied the product at 0.5#N/ksqft, that would be the equivalent of 0.36#N/ksqft of fast-release and 0.14#N/ksqft for slow-release.

The real question is when is your top growth going to stop. General wisdom is to make the last quick-release fertilizer application 4 weeks in advance of top growth stoppage, which equates to having the last slow-release fertilizer petering out by then, which likely means the last synthetic slow-release fertilizer application about 8 weeks prior. When does top growth normally stop for you? Is that still 7-8 weeks away? If you're still mowing until just before Christmas, you're within the recommended plan. If not, then you've deviated -- whether or not you want to make an application now is a risk/benefit analysis for which you get to decide!


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

If this has been discussed I'm very sorry...what would the risk be for a late application? (Damage?)

If I had to guess I have maybe 3...4 weeks max of top growth. I lay my dormant around Thanksgiving. We have had a bit of a warm fall. Now mild and wet for the most part.

You guys are great. Thanks so much.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

GoPre said:


> If this has been discussed I'm very sorry...what would the risk be for a late application? (Damage?)


Damage? Not really. As the temperature drops, the grass starts to use its energy to build up carb reserves in the roots. These reserves help it recover in spring and build stronger roots. If you continue to apply more nitrogen you will force more top growth but sacrifices the root development. One of the references in the main article discusses some of this (root mass) and using a different approach for winterizing. Osuturfman has more knowledge about it than me.

If I had to pick between one more nitrogen application or a better chance for root development, I will pick the root development. This year due to the drought in Indy, I applied less total nitrogen than other years, but I'm not sweating it. The lawn looks great and healthy.


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## GoPre (Oct 28, 2017)

Cool. Thanks everyone.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

GoPre said:


> If this has been discussed I'm very sorry...what would the risk be for a late application? (Damage?)


I would add another consideration (con) that can result from making a too-late application. Applications of high-nitrogen fertilizer during the time when the grass is starting to shift from top growth to root growth (but hasn't yet finished the shift) can push lush, fragile top growth in late fall. It will also encourage the grass to keep pushing top growth later than the grass otherwise would. Although not direct damage, indirect damage can result from this, as that lush, fragile top growth can make the grass more susceptible to snow mold over the winter. I've also seen claims that rates of winterkill are higher with lush late-fall top growth being less resistant to dessication (drying out) to the point of crown death over the winter, but haven't seen any studies directly on that topic. Maybe osuturfman would know of some studies on this?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The season is ending for most folks. The change in the sun altitude, duration and tempetures have slow or stopped for most of the cool season areas. If you haven't dropped your winterized, you might be too late. If you are late, I suggest to skip it to avoid impacting the environment.

One thing to do, write down in your log your winterizing date for this year. While this was an abnormal year, it is good to have an idea of your lawn typical timeframe.

Winter solstice is just 15 days away. Things start to improve after it with a longer daytime duration. Time to start planning the prem application via the website: http://gsdtracker.net


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> Winter solstice is just 15 days away. Things start to improve after it with a longer daytime duration.


Hallelujah.... The light at the end of the tunnel.


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