# Converting TTT Fescue lawn to Bermuda lawn in NC - Help!



## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Hey everyone. Been following the great advice on this forum for years now, so thanks in advance.

I'm a homeowner with a 7000 sq ft TTT Fescue yard (GCI Turf seed) in Charlotte NC. The lawn is in 80% full sunlight, and although it looks amazing in Spring/Fall (dark green uniform growth, low to no weeds) during May- Sept the lawn suffers from the intense heat/dry spells and looks horrible. Add to this the fact that my back yard was compacted from when the house was built 3 years ago, and there's a wealth of weeds and orchard grasses back there that I'm fighting too.

Cultural practices - I mow tall (4+ inches), spray Pre-M (last time was Presidents Day Feb 18), fertilize regularly with Milo, use fungicides and Tenacity when applicable, I use the whole Greene County Fert range of RGS, Air8, etc - but I just cannot afford to irrigate anymore (no irrigation system or well) and I'm finding I simply can't keep up with maintaining the Fescue lawn to a high level in these brutal NC summer months. Every year is the same.

So to keep a decent looking lawn in the Spring/Summer when its needed, and for long term lower water bills and to get a more durable yard, I've 95% decided to turn my fescue lawn into a Bermuda Lawn - most likely Yukon due its improved cold tolerance. I had a Bermuda Tifway 419 lawn in an older home and loved its durability in heat. Sure I had to mow it every week in summer, and it turned brown in late October to April, but that's no bother compared to trying to keep the fescue alive and looking good in May-Sep.

I cannot afford to sod, so grass seed is my ONLY option - and from what I have researched, NOW (May/June) is the prime time to seed a new Bermuda lawn in NC (right?).

So based on what research I can find, here's my plan:

1. Scalp the Tall Fescue (or have a service to get that done and take away the clippings), then wait a week.

2 Use GCF DeThatch (Do I need to do this?)

3. Seed the lawn with Bermuda (most likely Yukon, unless anyone can recommend a better variety for my area).

4. Gently rake in the seed - or cover with 1/4 inch of peat moss? (I have a manual compost spreader)

5. Air8 and RGS, 3oz per 1000.

6. Irrigate 3 x day, 8-10 mins each zone for 3 weeks. Worried here that my Fescue will recover and grow too though!

7. Keep mowing short in the heat of summer and fertilize after 3 weeks (Milorganite or Starter Fert?)

I am hoping the Bermuda will choke out the Tall Fescue and take over. If I get 75% success, I'll be happy this year and will seed bad spots again next year.

So my big question is - is this plan going to work? What, if anything, am I doing right or wrong?

Is scalping the yard and allowing the fescue to die out from the sun/heat for 7 days going to work? I want it gone, but I'm not a fan of using glyphosate on this scale and want to avoid using this if at all possible.

And what about weed/fescue competition whilst the Bermuda is germinating. I normally spray Tenacity on the ground before I seed Tall Fescue which acts as a great pre-m whilst still allowing the grass to germinate - but Tenacity is not recommended for Bermuda grass. So how do I deal with that?

Any advice or insight you can give will be much much appreciated. I can't find a local Turf company here in Charlotte knowledgeable enough to help me or do this work, and lord I have tried - so it looks like its all on me.

Many thanks,


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

I've never had fescue or seeded a yard, so I have no idea what's best. But why wouldn't you use glyphosate all over the fescue before seeding? Wouldn't you want to kill it so it doesn't prevent the Bermuda from getting enough sunlight or water?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

tcorbitt20 said:


> I've never had fescue or seeded a yard, so I have no idea what's best. But why wouldn't you use glyphosate all over the fescue before seeding? Wouldn't you want to kill it so it doesn't prevent the Bermuda from getting enough sunlight or water?


Was going to say the same thing. I would kill the fescue not just scalp it. Kill it then scalp it. If you just scalp it, its not going to die out, even if you do it when its 100 degrees no guarantee it will die.


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## lambert (Sep 12, 2018)

I think you need to kill everything before you try to seed with bermuda.


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

Glyphosate.

Scalp.

Break up the top 1/4" of soil with whatever you've got. I used a pull behind dethatcher and aerator to help.

Spread seed, fertilizer, insecticide (i had problem with ants taking my seed and making mounds), and topdress if you must. I did not topdress when I seeded Bermuda, but would have probably helped.

Water enough each day to keep the seed moist. Nobody will be able to tell you for how long, how many times, etc. You will have to figure that out. Just water it enough to get the ground moist.. then check on it throughout the day and find out about how long it takes for it to dry out. Do this on a day you're not working.

Set your timer (get one if you don't have one) and let it ride.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


> tcorbitt20 said:
> 
> 
> > I've never had fescue or seeded a yard, so I have no idea what's best. But why wouldn't you use glyphosate all over the fescue before seeding? Wouldn't you want to kill it so it doesn't prevent the Bermuda from getting enough sunlight or water?
> ...


Thanks for the response, trying to avoid using glyphosate if at all possible. It's my absolute last option.

I would need to backpack spray the glyphosate in 4 gallon batches (backpack sprayer) and that will take a while for me to cover 7000 sqft by foot. For me, 4 gallons covers around 2000sq ft so that's approximately 4-5 refills. Maybe that's me being lazy...

I have read that just scalping can work, but as I write this I'm debating it in my head already.

Here's what I've read from http://www.bermudagrass.com/info/seeding-lawns.html#.XNHnMs0pA0M

'But if you want to you can off the live tall fescue in late spring (scalp very low & rake / vacuum debris), just to reduce the shading effect and allow for some sunlight on the bermuda seed. Then slit seed or broadcast or spread over aerated areas (spike or core aerated areas), etc.

The better the seed to soil contact the more successful will be the establishment results, Good preparation for seed soil contact is always better than just rather than just dumping the seed on top of the soil surface.

MOWING THE TALL FESCUE AT 1 INCH DURING THE BERMUDA ESTABLISHMENT PERIOD (8-10 weeks), KEEPS THE TALL FESCUE FROM SHADING OUT THE BABY BERMUDAS - THIS IS A KEY POINT, UNTIL THE BERMUDA LAWN IS DOMINANT. MONTHLY FERTILIZATION OF THE BERMUDA WILL ALSO HELP IN ESTABLISHMENT.'

Has anyone tried and succeeded using this method?


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

sanders4617 said:


> Glyphosate.
> 
> Scalp.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the pointers. Using glyphosate on such a large scale (7000 sqft) is daunting. I will sit down tonight and read thru your own lawn renovation posts, looks like a great project to learn from.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Zenith_NC said:


> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> > Glyphosate.
> ...


You said you don't have an irrigation system. How do you plan to water the seeds multiple times a day? Another question I have about the article you mentioned is that it says to mow the fescue at 1" during the Bermuda establishment (8-10 weeks). However you won't be able to mow anything for at least several weeks while the Bermuda sprouts and takes root. Otherwise you will damage the seedlings. I think the frustration of a failed seeding would outweigh 4 or 5 refills on the sprayer. Go with the glyphosate.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

You have a battery powered backpack or pump? 2k sq ft out of 4 gallons seems pretty small. Usually you can get 1k sqft per 1 gallon. When I'm spraying my N-EXT products I'm able to spray just over 6k sqft with 4 gallons.


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## Passat774 (Oct 9, 2018)

I just did a similar project you are looking into with 5,000 square feet, with the exception of removing the fescue and the utilizing sod.

I spent four hours removing with the sod cutter and a team of 4 guys.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9371


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## Bbq freakshow (Mar 9, 2019)

Just buy backpack sprayer and glyphosate. Your gonna have a hell of a time otherwise!


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


> You have a battery powered backpack or pump? 2k sq ft out of 4 gallons seems pretty small. Usually you can get 1k sqft per 1 gallon. When I'm spraying my N-EXT products I'm able to spray just over 6k sqft with 4 gallons.


Thanks. I have a cheap 4 gallon Round Up brand pump backpack sprayer. I looked at my previous notes and seems I used 3 refills to cover the whole yard last time I sprayed my PreM. I usually use hose end sprayer for the Air 8. RGS etc products. Not sure I can get 1k sqft ft per gallon. Maybe I overlap way too much....


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

TN Hawkeye said:


> Zenith_NC said:
> 
> 
> > sanders4617 said:
> ...


Thanks, looks like responses so far all advocate glyphosate so I will heed the advice. Looks like using it is the smart choice and will improve my success chances.

For irrigation I run 8 watering zones from 2 spigots, each spigot is connected to an Orbit 4 station timer. This works very well for me using hoses connected to either Rainbird 32SA's or Hunter Rotators fixed on stakes. Much like Ryan Knorrs setup. I've completed 3 successful Tall Fescue overseeding/seeding jobs using this setup over the last few years. Water bill comes out at over $300 for that month though.... Ouch.

I take your point on the mowing whilst germination takes place thing too... Which is why I was hesitant and asked on this forum.

So I guess the changed plan now is;

1. Glyphosate.
2. Wait 10 days then scalp.
3. Use GCF D-Thatch ?
4. Seed
5 Rake in or Top Dress lightly.
6. Air 8 and RGS.
7. Irrigate.

Any views on whether using the DThatch product is necessary?

And should I wait until 3 weeks after germination to fertilize?

And any experience with Yukon?


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Zenith_NC said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> > Zenith_NC said:
> ...


You will want to glyphosate, water for a week, look for anything green, glyphosate, water for a week, look for anything green, repeat if needed. Then remove as much dead stuff as possible. Then go to step 4.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Passat774 said:


> I just did a similar project you are looking into with 5,000 square feet, with the exception of removing the fescue and the utilizing sod.
> 
> I spent four hours removing with the sod cutter and a team of 4 guys.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=9371


Nice job. Must have cost a pretty penny!


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## RDZed (Jul 13, 2018)

Make sure you buy some marking dye for when you lay down the gly to make sure you hit every spot. Also, if you have a Agri Supply near you, buy Gly Star Plus. It's a ton cheaper than Roundup. You can find both at AS.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

TN Hawkeye said:


> Zenith_NC said:
> 
> 
> > TN Hawkeye said:
> ...


Wow. Lot of work there but I see the logic. I have used Tenacity to great effect seeding Tall Fescue, using it on the ground as a short term PreM. Shame I can't use it for the Bermuda seeding...


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

RDZed said:


> Make sure you buy some marking dye for when you lay down the gly to make sure you hit every spot. Also, if you have a Agri Supply near you, buy Gly Star Plus. It's a ton cheaper than Roundup. You can find both at AS.


Usually use 41% concentrate from HD or Walmart, does the trick... But I'll check AS and see. Dye is a good idea too. Thanks.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

This was me mowing 3 days after I used marking dye for the first time.



I was breaking the 1/3 rule.


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## RDZed (Jul 13, 2018)

Zenith_NC said:


> RDZed said:
> 
> 
> > Make sure you buy some marking dye for when you lay down the gly to make sure you hit every spot. Also, if you have a Agri Supply near you, buy Gly Star Plus. It's a ton cheaper than Roundup. You can find both at AS.
> ...


Cool. Gly Star Plus concentrate is $40 for 2.5 gal at AS. It's a 41% also. The dye is a must have for a lawn that size. GL


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## RDZed (Jul 13, 2018)

TN Hawkeye said:


> This was me mowing 3 days after I used marking dye for the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> I was breaking the 1/3 rule.


Lmao!


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Ok I have Yukon Bermuda. I would honestly suggest the new monoco Bermuda. 
You have a lot of cool season seeding experience. However warm season is completely different. 
Cool season guys make seeding look easy. It is not easy to seed Bermuda. It is not as simple as mowing low and putting down seed. You will absolutely have a failed seeding. 
1) why not use Yukon seed. Yukon is very cold hardy however it is a bit sensitive. When seeding Bermuda in the heat of summer you have to compete with weeds. Always. Yukon is very sensitive to the main chemical used to post emergent fight weeds. Quinclorac. Absolutely do not use this on Yukon. Making it very hard to establish. 
2) as mentioned above you need to do more than one kill with glyphosate. ( use the high rate ) so kill spray the grass. Then Water the grass like crazy so that weeds and grass will grow. Then spray the entire lawn again with glyphosate. Absolutely do this. 
3) being a cool season guy has spoiled you. It is not easy to seed Bermuda in the middle of summer because of weed pressure. Cool season guys don't hVe to worry about it.

So I am not sure if your ready mentally. Honestly if you don't want to spray the yard because it's gonna take a long time then your not ready young padawon. Look at my lawn renovation. I seeded 20k square feet of Yukon. It was painfully. The seed is way to expensive to just throw out there and pray. Every year on this forum we get people who try to do it. And ever year I tell them good luck and prove me wrong.

4) how many trees do you have? Pictures please

5) does all the area your seeding get 7 hours of direct sunlight?
6) in my mind Dthatch is irrelevant and shouldn't be used. Why because you supposed to kill everything and scarify the ground to get it ready for seeding. 
7) if your goal is to one day use a reel mower then you have more work that you need to do I won't go into it unless you ask

Get ready - invest in sunscreen- it's a lot of work you and that backpack sprayer will become best friends.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)




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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Tellycoleman said:


> Ok I have Yukon Bermuda. I would honestly suggest the new monoco Bermuda.
> You have a lot of cool season seeding experience. However warm season is completely different.
> Cool season guys make seeding look easy. It is not easy to seed Bermuda. It is not as simple as mowing low and putting down seed. You will absolutely have a failed seeding.
> 1) why not use Yukon seed. Yukon is very cold hardy however it is a bit sensitive. When seeding Bermuda in the heat of summer you have to compete with weeds. Always. Yukon is very sensitive to the main chemical used to post emergent fight weeds. Quinclorac. Absolutely do not use this on Yukon. Making it very hard to establish.
> ...


Wow, sounds to this Padawan like your painful 20k Yukon Reno has left you 'scarred and disfigured', 😀

But I appreciate what you're trying to say. Let's face it - no one is ever 100% mentally prepared for taking on these types of jobs. There's always obstacles and failures and regrets to overcome, as you probably experienced many many times. I just wish us cool season folks were as battle hardened as you! But it's all good, onwards and upwards.

To answer your questions:

Zero trees.
8+ hours of sunlight every day.
No reel mower plans.
Will be using Glyphosate now based on great feedback.
Will try and get a picture up later.

And I'll look into Monaco Bermuda as an alternative, appreciate all the advice and pointers. 👍👍👍


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

Start earlier than later. Give yourself time to grow the Bermuda in, and then also time to spray out the weeds. You can have a great lawn by the end of the Summer.

You could also try sprigging with stolons if you can find a sod farm willing to sell them to you.

You'll have a higher quality turf in the end going that route. But I don't want to deter you from your seeding plans.. sprigging isn't easy either. H2O


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

sanders4617 said:


> Start earlier than later. Give yourself time to grow the Bermuda in, and then also time to spray out the weeds. You can have a great lawn by the end of the Summer.
> 
> You could also try sprigging with stolons if you can find a sod farm willing to sell them to you.
> 
> You'll have a higher quality turf in the end going that route. But I don't want to deter you from your seeding plans.. sprigging isn't easy either. H2O


Thanks for the positivity. 👍

Your 2018 renovation to Riviera looked great too. 👍


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Yes I fell into the DarkSide after my seeding. Didnt mean to sound so negative. 
@sanders4617 is correct sprigging is the way to go.
Sprigging 419 is probably just as cheap as seeding with yukon.
Sprigging tifftuff would be awesome as well.
I would really consider that


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## Bbq freakshow (Mar 9, 2019)

Zenith_NC said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > Ok I have Yukon Bermuda. I would honestly suggest the new monoco Bermuda.
> ...


Lol telly was def traumatized by his seed reno as he basically throat punches anyone that thinks the words seed Bermuda! I'm currently in process of seeding monaco just praying I come out alive! 😂


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

@Bbq freakshow

Be interested to hear how your Monaco seeding project is going and what factors made you decide to go with that seed choice. Any pictures of progress? Thanks.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

+1 on considering sprigging vs. seeding. There's several threads about it around here. Seeding anything either cool or warm season turf is the worst IMO.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

adgattoni said:


> +1 on considering sprigging vs. seeding. There's several threads about it around here. Seeding anything either cool or warm season turf is the worst IMO.


Can you expand? Why is seeding the worst? I've had plenty of success seeding cool season turf, so just want to know why it's the worst in your opinion?
Thanks!


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

I've found seeding to be easy either way. Warm season you're fighting weeds until you can spray them out.

Cool season has an advantage of Tenacity.

Prep work and patience/water.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

sanders4617 said:


> I've found seeding to be easy either way. Warm season you're fighting weeds until you can spray them out.
> 
> Cool season has an advantage of Tenacity.
> 
> Prep work and patience/water.


I would agree - granted I've never seeded warm season (yet) but as I'm hearing/learning from the forum it's all about prepping and committing to your task at hand properly. Being able to use Tenacity during cool season seeding has been a great help for me. Such a shame I can't use it for Bermuda.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Zenith_NC said:


> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> > I've found seeding to be easy either way. Warm season you're fighting weeds until you can spray them out.
> ...


 it may be just different in other areas...but Im in North Carolina too and around here nobody SODS....everyone seeds.

And its very easy to seed warm season grass.

So it might just be differnt parts of the country have different ways....but SOD were Im from means either you have small yard or you are ok spending lots of money.

Then again most of the lawns until recently were pretty big lawns...so I guess every area is different.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Im seeding 14,000 square feet of Princess 77 Bermuda as we speak right now and I could end up eating my words...LOL.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

ENC_Lawn said:


> Im seeding 14,000 square feet of Princess 77 Bermuda as we speak right now and I could end up eating my words...LOL.


@@ENC_Lawn

Good luck with the seeding -Hows the lawn looking?

Did you glyphosate the entire 14k before seeding? And how much seed did you put down?


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## Bbq freakshow (Mar 9, 2019)

Zenith_NC said:


> @Bbq freakshow
> 
> Be interested to hear how your Monaco seeding project is going and what factors made you decide to go with that seed choice. Any pictures of progress? Thanks.


@Zenith_NC
I wanted to use riviera originally but all seed was sold out and discontinued. The manufacturer replaced it with newer improved variety of that which is the monaco. I live in southeastern va so wanted something cold tolerant. Monaco ranked near the top of all seeded bermuda ntep trials and its not sensitive to herbicides like yukon. As for the renovation I just did my 3rd round of glyphosate and everything is just about cooked. Next I plan to scalp it with the reel mower and power rake the hell out of it. Then water to make sure nothing else pops up. Lawn pretty level already but a few spots to address then gonna slit seed and roll it. Rigged up a temporary irrigation system today with b hyve timer and 3 zone valves to make sure seed stays moist. Fingers crossed and I'll have 6k sq ft of beautiful reel low turf in couple months!


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Zenith_NC

Yes I sprayed 4 rounds of glyphosate.

Started around 3rd of April and sprayed every 7 days. With some spot spraying in between those sprays.

I got right much rain so I didn't have to irrigate between sprays due to the rain in my area.

I sprayed off the entire 14,000 square feet. When I joined the forum about a year ago...I was NOT going to kill off my yard.

It was not and option for me at all. And the more I read university studies, Seed articles and brochures and listen and read this forum there is no way I would NOT glyphosate the entire yard now knowing what I know.

I seeded half of my yard 7 days ago and I started to to see some germination at about day 5 but its slow process so far.

My backyard Im waiting another week or 10 days to start on.

I am using 2.5 to 3 pounds per 1,000 square feet od seed.

I have read were not to seed over 3 pounds per 1,000 square feet for seed.

Hopefully I will have some decent pics to show in about 30 days!


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

@ENC_Lawn

Thanks for the Insight ENC. Hope the lawn looks great soon.


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

Bbq freakshow said:


> Zenith_NC said:
> 
> 
> > @Bbq freakshow
> ...


Sounds like you are on your way to a beauty of a lawn man. I'm just now finding out more about what sprigging involves. I was chatting to a lawn service guy I know from our neighborhood (but I don't use him) and he suggested I look into using TifTuf for my lawn. He says for me to call SiteOne and find out more but I may just drop by there tomorrow. I need to do some more research on the forum too about Sprigging.


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## Bbq freakshow (Mar 9, 2019)

Lots of guys here like Tiftuf from what I can tell. Check out tahoma 31 if your also in transition zone. Excellent newer cold tolerant Bermuda which is sod only. I'm on a real limited budget so zod or springing any hybrids was out of the question. Springing just sounds like way more work than seed though I'm sure you'll get coverage faster.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Zenith_NC

Hands down TifTuf is the way I would go.

Out of all the grasses I have seen in person TifTuf is by far my favorite.

If you are close to SOD Solutions in Raleigh swing by there and see there plots....TifTuf is beautiful but expensive!


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## Zenith_NC (May 7, 2019)

So after a few busy weeks at work and some extra research, I am starting to consider whether delaying this project until July/August and dipping into the savings to go TifTuf sod is the most effective long term solution for my TTTF to Bermuda conversion project.

The main attraction here is the durability and heat/drought tolerance of TifTuf compared to other Bermuda types. We are at the start of a week of 95+ temps here in NC and non-irrigated TTTF yards are getting nuked.

I have asked SuperSod for a 6000sqft sod quote. Thinking it will be roughly $2700, but waiting to see their estimate.

So the plan is to still Glyphosate the yard 2-3 weeks before install. But would July/Aug be the optimum time to install or should I wait until late Spring 2020?

And what about GCF products, will RGS etc help the Sod when installed or is that too soon?

Any other TifTuf notes I should be aware of? Thanks all.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Zenith_NC said:


> jayhawk said:
> 
> 
> > Irrigation? Sprig is less than sod and provides a more predictable surface.
> ...


Not sure where you are in the process but I am in Charlotte. There are great places to get good dirt in the area.

Plugging may not be a bad idea either.

You'll need way more than a cubic yard of soil 3. A calculator will tell that 6k sqft at 1/2 inch depth will need 9.26 yards. That will run you over $1000 for soil 3.

Site one has some really good soil called lawn max or 1 step down lawn(something) it is sandier that the max for less than 40 a yard plus $100 for delivery. No matter what you do you'll need to level it after everything settles.

I had 10 yards of that on 5k put down before my sod and I still used 10 yards of sand for leveling. It's looking like I'll need a second leveling next year. Visions landscape supply has some good sand as well for $30 a yard plus $80 delivery. As late as your sodding I would plan on your 1st level next year.

I went with tiftuf. Super sod has direction on when to fert and such. It's at least 2 weeks after laid out.

No pre em until it's well established. No weed killer either.

I used starter as soon it was 40% greened up.

You will need to water frequently for 2 weeks as well. And don't buy all the hype on the no water pitch. Unless your soil is perfect and really loamy your going to need to water it.


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