# Are you all Organic in the Turf



## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Pretty much organic in the -garden-.
I will admit I did have a bad case of mites one year, so I did do a soil drench of imocropolid..

On the turf, I'm nowhere near that yet. I'm doing the whole alfalfa, soy, cornmeal feed but this year, due to not hitting the local feed sources, I've been going synthetic. And use I do use PreM and since I was just not -feeling like selective hand pulling-, I did walk around and spot sprayed .

Anyhow, for those in the OLC subforum, have you reached a point in your turf care, where you are as -close- to chem free as possible.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

All organic here except that I do have some Miracle-Gro for some new trees that needed a "shot in the arm" this year.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

I just installed sod 2 weeks ago...and am intending to be all OG but I'm wondering if the sod needs a quick shot of N. I'm nervous about burning it with blood meal so I'm going for the next best thing..fish hydrosylate. HOWEVER..i can't decide if the first fertilization should be synthetic to get the sod going? Noone has hit me up on my journal when I've asked questions yet.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Sean,

Did you put down organic matter like compost down before putting the sod on top of it? Have you had a soil test to see how much organic matter is already in your soil? If you have sufficient organic matter, you probably have enough N, if organic matter is low, you are most likely low on N.

Blood meal is water insoluble, so it is slow release and should not burn. Have you checked out the organic lawn fertilizers by Espoma? They make a fall fertilizer which also has K if you are deficient in that. Just be sure that the N and P in any fertilizers are slow release as even an organic source of fast release of N or P will leach or run off before plants can use it and therefore be environmentally detrimental.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

As far as I am concerned, "Organic" means no forms of herbicide, fungicide, insecticide, growth regulators etc.

Organic doesn't mean you have to feed your lawn with fish emulsion, biosolids, kelp and molasses only.

Things like Urea, Ammonium Sulphate, Ferrous Sulphate and Potash are organic, IMO.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Sinclair said:


> As far as I am concerned, "Organic" means no forms of herbicide, fungicide, insecticide, growth regulators etc.
> 
> Organic doesn't mean you have to feed your lawn with fish emulsion, biosolids, kelp and molasses only.
> 
> Things like Urea, Ammonium Sulphate, Ferrous Sulphate and Potash are organic, IMO.


The gardening definition of "organic" means not synthetic. Example: corn gluten is an organic pre-emergent control and also is a slow release form of nitrogen.

Urea, ammonium sulfate, ferrous sulfate and potash can be from either organic or synthetic sources.

Organic can also mean derived from living things as in the organic matter vs. the mineral matter in your soil. But this is not the definition of organic for the purpose of this subforum.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

And that's the issue with trying to nail down a definition of "organic".

Urea, Ammonia, Iron ions, etc. all occur through natural processes, though not in the concentrations employed in lawn care. Nature does not accidentally assemble imadicloprid, azoxystrobin or glyphosate. (As far as I know :lol

In the last paragraph of the OP, The question is asked "are you close to chem-free?"

Well, I haven't been able to eliminate water, you know?


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Sinclair said:


> And that's the issue with trying to nail down a definition of "organic".
> 
> Urea, Ammonia, Iron ions, etc. all occur through natural processes, though not in the concentrations employed in lawn care. Nature does not accidentally assemble imadicloprid, azoxystrobin or glyphosate. (As far as I know :lol
> 
> ...


Merriam-Webster's definition:

1- grown or made without the use of artificial chemicals
2- not using artificial chemicals
3- of, relating to, or obtained from living things

Examples:

Organic: Rock phosphate is mined out of the ground and used in its existing form. It is a natural source of P.

Not organic: Triple superphosphate is synthesized as in an artificial source of P.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

With respect to an Organic fertilizer program...

Maybe that was the intent?


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

What is an "artificial chemical"? I don't think such a thing exists. Every chemical is very real regardless of its origin. Surely they can't be trying to use circular logic to define something as organic because it's organic by another name?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Sinclair said:


> What is an "artificial chemical"? I don't think such a thing exists. Every chemical is very real regardless of its origin. Surely they can't be trying to use circular logic to define something as organic because it's organic by another name?


I'm more focused on the terms "Organic fertilizer program" and "natural products". An example of a natural product is a biofungicide.

By the way...did you hear the news?


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

@Green I did see the news. Fortunately, 25% of my lawn didn't get the memo and is happily growing 

As far as "organic fertilizer program" I would ask what is the difference to the grass and soil ecology as a whole, were I to collect and apply dog urine, or dissolve and spray urea, at similar N rate? :twisted:


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Deadlawn how were you able to tell they needed a shot in the arm?


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

mjh648 said:


> @Deadlawn how were you able to tell they needed a shot in the arm?


I was referring to a couple of young fraser firs I planted in Spring 2019. The needles were yellowing in Spring 2020 which made me think maybe the soil wasn't acidic enough. A tree guy thought they were nitrogen deprived and recommended Miracle-Gro Miracid which I fertilized with. One of them has recovered nicely, is deep green and put on substantial growth, the other one is still struggling with little growth and is a lighter green.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

I am all organic in my ornamentals, edibles and turf. We will see down the road if organics work well with my turf. However, I know that organics have made my ornamentals and vegetables the envy of the neighborhood. I know it can be kind of difficult sometimes when managing the NPK requirements for turf but I selected paspalum due to it supposedly not needing as much N as something like Bermuda.

Also, some of the posts above arguing/debating ludicrous claims undermines constructive discussion and derails the topic. @Deadlawn thank you for keeping it on track.

I am choosing to go organic to build my soil health. Hopefully allowing my plants to have robust root systems and to increase my soils ability to retain moisture and combat drought issues. I am also choosing organic because I care about my environment and what my kids explore and play on. I want to minimize leaching of soluable salts into the ground and to avoid excess fertilizer runoff. I live by the ocean so I dont want that stuff getting in there. I mean, I'm not naive to know that my input would probably be negligible/minuscule but why contribute at all if I dont have to? I buy my products from small companies who carefully vet their suppliers so I know that the products I'm using have been harvested and processed in sustainable ways. It also supports small business which now is more important than ever. Yes, buying strictly organic is absolutely more expensive however I think the end result will be worth it. And when my children are grown and out of the house (hopefully ) if I want to remove the lawn, I know that I will have an incredible base for vegetables or fruit trees.

I would love to see more organic users contribute to this board! To each their own, no judgement coming from me, but I would love to see more organic lawns and further the discussion!


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

SeanBB said:


> Also, some of the posts above arguing/debating ludicrous claims undermines constructive discussion and derails the topic. @Deadlawn thank you for keeping it on track.!


What undermines constructive discussion is gate keeping the definition of organic to not include things that sound "chemical-ly"

I'm curious precisely what part above you think is ludicrous.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

@Sinclair - you are technically correct saying that most things are organic..because any organic compound generally has a carbon-hydrogen bond.

When it comes to agriculture, organic refers to fertilizers being used that are not synthesized by humans.

Sure, the fertilizers that we are discussing are processed by humans to be able to put them in our gardens or lawns but are not derived or synthesized by chemists in a lab, from synthetic compounds.

I said earlier that your comments were "ludicrous" due to the fact that they were only said to derail our positive conversation. Look, I'm sure your lawn is great, and you want great lawns for everyone on here (that's why we are both here)..and maybe I am taking this the wrong way, but it seemed like you were trolling. And nobody likes that. But please, for the sake of constructive growth, don't try to disrupt positive conversations that are trying to grow our community and our knowledge. We are all here for the same thing.

I really, REALLY would like to see this forum continue to grow it's organic followers.

No hard feelings!


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

I wasn't trolling at all.

You mentioned needing a quick shot of N along with the wish to be organic, and urea provides just that, and in my opinion, urea is organic, because it is quite literally the solid salts found in mammal urine.

It doesn't get more organic than that.

Ferrous sulphate heptahydrate is a naturally occurring mineral that many of us employ.

Epsom salts are a staple of organic gardening - Magnesium sulphate heptahydrate...exact same as above, but magnesium in place of iron. If ferrous sulphate heptahydrate had a more gentle household name, would it be more widely considered organic? Probably.

Whether a mineral has been directly mined or processed in a factory, doesn't matter to me - outcomes are more important than origins.

Back to the beginning - whenever you want some fast N, use urea and don't feel bad about it.

I'll step out of this discussion (and sub-forum) now.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

SeanBB said:


> When it comes to agriculture, *organic* refers to fertilizers being used that are *not synthesized by humans*.
> 
> Sure, the fertilizers that we are discussing are processed by humans to be able to put them in our gardens or lawns but are *not derived or synthesized by chemists in a lab, from synthetic compounds*.


^^^This.^^^



Sinclair said:


> You mentioned needing a quick shot of N along with the wish to be organic, and urea provides just that, and in my opinion, urea is organic, because it is quite literally the solid salts found in mammal urine.
> 
> It doesn't get more organic than that.


Your point is well taken here. If you have a dog and it likes to pee in one spot, you will surely notice that there is a burn spot surrounded by a large area of lush green growth. And yes, there are organic forms of urea fertilizers. From an environmental point, organic urea doesn't use anywhere near the fossil fuel to create that synthetic urea uses. However, organic urea is still a fast release form of nitrogen which is more likely to leach, run off and end up in waterways causing dangerous algae blooms. That is a concern for me as I live near a stream and wetlands.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you manage your applications at a low rate, the risk of leaching becomes zero. If you are a farmer spraying a heavy load on a recently plowed field before a rain, then yes runoff is a real issue.

Let's take phosphorus for example. Too many states started to control the amount of phosphorus in home fertilizer. It clearly shows that they don't know what they are doing. Phosphorus applied to a home lawn gets bound fairly tight to the soil. It doesn't leach or runoff if there is grass growing. You really need erosion for phosphorus to reach a stream or a downpour immediately after application/compost. Farmers do apply phosphorus to bare soils that get erosion until something is growing. If our government really wanted to reduce phosphorus in the lakes/stream, then they should regulate the ag side, but that's not a popular thing to do. In turn by trying to regulate home lawns, I think they made the problem worst. Home lawns are now underfed and not more bare, so more chance for erosion.

I do like to use organic sources in the summer (cracked corn, alfalfa, coffee grounds), but as temps drop, I switch to man made products. They give me a response that I won't get otherwise with organic sources.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> *If you manage your applications at a low rate*, the risk of leaching becomes zero. If you are a farmer spraying a heavy load on a recently plowed field before a rain, then yes runoff is a real issue.


Those are the key words. The problem is many homeowners overfertilize because they feel more is better.

And contrary to what you implied, 10 times more fertilizers per acre are spread on lawns than on farmland because farms, especially small farms, are on a tight budget and don't use any more than they have to. Not to mention that we need food, we don't need lawns.

Case in point is a coworker who has a well. He never had to treat his water when their were only farms around him. Once the farms were sold to developers and houses were built in the area, he now has high nitrogen levels in his water and has to have his water treated.


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## SeanBB (Jul 11, 2020)

@g-man totally get your point about what you said and maybe having the insanely awesome lawns you see on here isn't possible without some man-made help during the colder months. Maybe us "organics" folks have to be OK with our lawns looking off for a part of the year. We might have to sacrifice one thing to balance the other.

I totally think that the basic homeowner just wanting a green lawn will dump an entire bag of Scotts down without reading the application rates just trying to get the grass to green up. I mean, even if you live in a pretty ag-heavy area...i wouldn't be surprised if the town or suburb had the equivalent or close to he equivalent acreage of turf to cropland. The cropland probably being managed appropriately with the turf being over-fertilized, over-watered etc...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@SeanBB I think 100% organics in San Diego will work. You have perfect year long weather with only 425sqft. Half an acre in the Midwest and you will spend a fortune.

Where I live, the acres and acres of crop land are far more than the 10ksqft lots. The crop lands are not managed to reduce any environmental impact. They are managed to maximize yields/profits.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> And contrary to what you implied, 10 times more fertilizers per acre are spread on lawns than on farmland because farms, especially small farms, are on a tight budget and don't use any more than they have to.


10 times? Do you have a source for that?

In my neighborhood, most lawns are under fertilized. The HOA area to the left barely gets anything other than prem and rain. The neighbors lawns are all also under fertilized.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > And contrary to what you implied, 10 times more fertilizers per acre are spread on lawns than on farmland because farms, especially small farms, are on a tight budget and don't use any more than they have to.
> ...


https://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/2010/06/04/the-problem-of-lawns/#:~:text=Homeowners%20spend%20billions%20of%20dollars,major%20source%20of%20water%20pollution.

_"Homeowners spend billions of dollars and *typically use 10 times the amount of pesticide and fertilizers per acre on their lawns as farmers do on crops*; the majority of these chemicals are wasted due to inappropriate timing and application. These chemicals then runoff and become a major source of water pollution.Last but not least, 30 to 60 percent of urban fresh water is used on lawns. Most of this water is also wasted due to poor timing and application."_

https://www.deep-roots-project.org/pesticides-toxic-fertilizers

_"*Homeowners use up to 10 times more chemical pesticides per acre on their lawns than farmers use on crops.* Nearly 80 million pounds of pesticide active ingredients are used on U.S. lawns annually. On top of this, 90 million pounds of chemical fertilizers are used on lawns annually."_


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> In my neighborhood, most lawns are under fertilized. The HOA area to the left barely gets anything other than prem and rain. The neighbors lawns are all also under fertilized.


What is your definition of "underfertilized"? The lawns in that photo look pretty full to me. Granted they aren't that Astroturf green color many people like, but it looks like they are thriving.

After having had a nice lawn with little to no effort in NJ and then struggling to have grass grow where I live now in MA, I am convinced the key is the soil structure. When a house is built, the contractor digs the basement and spreads that matter around the property, then spreads 3-6 inches of "topsoil" over it. So the homeowner is at the mercy of whatever that excavated soil is - clay, sand, silt, etc. Then the "topsoil" that is spread can be......well.........anything that came from the top of wherever which is usually a deserted area from old farmland to a building site. It can be anything including something that may not be much better than the excavated soil and often has minimal organic matter.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

g-man said:


> I do like to use organic sources in the summer (cracked corn, alfalfa, coffee grounds), but as temps drop, I switch to man made products. They give me a response that I won't get otherwise with organic sources.


Can you elaborate on this? Is your switch from organic to synthetic in fall/winter due to you wanting to make sure the grass gets a fast shot of N before it goes dormant and organic is more slow release? Or is synthetic better than organic in colder temps?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Most organic sources need a warm weather to break it down. In summer, great, but after Sept, they will just sit there.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@g-man I'm guessing for warm season grasses since you aren't putting down fert usually under 65F that it's okay to use for most if not all applications.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

mjh648 said:


> @g-man I'm guessing for warm season grasses since you aren't putting down fert usually under 65F that it's okay to use for most if not all applications.


I belive as long as soil temps are 55 or above, microbes will break down the organic nutrients. As temps drop, the microbial action ia slower, but it's still there. You just won't get instant gratification. Find your soil temp here:

https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature#


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## garydasc (Sep 3, 2021)

I have been all organic since 2015. I've been using Ringer Lawn Restore and/or Purely Organic. For the last 4 years I've used Dr. Earth Supernatural Lawn Fertilizer. Before that I have always been semi-organic. I've always used a Colorado brand, organic based fertilizer that has DPW (Dried Poultry Waste), Urea, Sulfur coated Urea, Muriate of Potash, Ammonium Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate: 14-2-5.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

What I noticed in my neighborhood is our average house plot is about 5500 sq feet. Now minus out the house, sidewalks, driveway, patios you get my drift your probably down to 2500 SQ ft. They do the Scotts 4 step program but use the whole bag. Our public water comes from the ground and we wonder why it's becoming a struggle to keep it safe for consumption.


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## garydasc (Sep 3, 2021)

M32075 said:


> What I noticed in my neighborhood is our average house plot is about 5500 sq feet. Now minus out the house, sidewalks, driveway, patios you get my drift your probably down to 2500 SQ ft. They do the Scotts 4 step program but use the whole bag. Our public water comes from the ground and we wonder why it's becoming a struggle to keep it safe for consumption.


 :thumbup:


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

M32075 said:


> What I noticed in my neighborhood is our average house plot is about 5500 sq feet. Now minus out the house, sidewalks, driveway, patios you get my drift your probably down to 2500 SQ ft. They do the Scotts 4 step program but use the whole bag. Our public water comes from the ground and we wonder why it's becoming a struggle to keep it safe for consumption.


Yikes! DIYers are the worst as they tend to use more product than is necessary. Whereas lawn services are on a tight budget, are more tightly regulated and therefore will use no more than necessary.

The other thing is that DIYers don't need to put those "pesticide treated" signs up. Lawn services need to put those signs up even if they are using organic methods.


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## garydasc (Sep 3, 2021)

Deadlawn said:


> M32075 said:
> 
> 
> > What I noticed in my neighborhood is our average house plot is about 5500 sq feet. Now minus out the house, sidewalks, driveway, patios you get my drift your probably down to 2500 SQ ft. They do the Scotts 4 step program but use the whole bag. Our public water comes from the ground and we wonder why it's becoming a struggle to keep it safe for consumption.
> ...


My neighbor uses a fertilizer that is chicken litter mixed with synthetic NPK. I used to use the same fertilizer and one bag covers up to 5600 Sq.Ft. My neighbor has 3000 Sq.Ft. of lawn and he puts down 2 bags (one for front yard and one for back yard), every time he fertilizes.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

garydasc said:


> My neighbor uses a fertilizer that is chicken litter mixed with synthetic NPK. I used to use the same fertilizer and one bag covers up to 5600 Sq.Ft. My neighbor has 3000 Sq.Ft. of lawn and he puts down 2 bags (one for front yard and one for back yard), every time he fertilizes.


Oy vey! I guess he enjoys mowing his lawn multiple times per week and all the diseases associated with excess nitrogen. But hey, here in America, if a little is good, more is better and too much is just enough. And we wonder why we have algae blooms - SMH.


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## garydasc (Sep 3, 2021)

Deadlawn said:


> garydasc said:
> 
> 
> > My neighbor uses a fertilizer that is chicken litter mixed with synthetic NPK. I used to use the same fertilizer and one bag covers up to 5600 Sq.Ft. My neighbor has 3000 Sq.Ft. of lawn and he puts down 2 bags (one for front yard and one for back yard), every time he fertilizes.
> ...


I've tried to explain to him that he's wasting his money, causing more work for himself, and hurting the environment and that his lawn can only absorb so much nitrogen at once, but he just says that "he likes to put it down heavy." He fertilizes basically 3 times a season. Spring and fall with this fertilizer and mid summer with another product from this company called Revive which is chicken litter with a wetting agent to amend our clay soils here in Colorado and get more water down to the roots. He puts that down heavy as well (2 bags when one is enough for his Sq.Ft.). I've tried to convince him that if he insists on "putting it down heavy", that he should at least space out applications by putting down one bag and then waiting a month to put down the second. But he just thinks its better to "put it down heavy" all at once, every 3 weeks. He thinks its a sign of health that he needs to mow 3 times a week and water every other day!


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

garydasc said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > garydasc said:
> ...


He obviously needs a hobby.


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## garydasc (Sep 3, 2021)

g-man said:


> If you manage your applications at a low rate, the risk of leaching becomes zero. If you are a farmer spraying a heavy load on a recently plowed field before a rain, then yes runoff is a real issue.
> 
> Let's take phosphorus for example. Too many states started to control the amount of phosphorus in home fertilizer. It clearly shows that they don't know what they are doing. Phosphorus applied to a home lawn gets bound fairly tight to the soil. It doesn't leach or runoff if there is grass growing. You really need erosion for phosphorus to reach a stream or a downpour immediately after application/compost. Farmers do apply phosphorus to bare soils that get erosion until something is growing. If our government really wanted to reduce phosphorus in the lakes/stream, then they should regulate the ag side, but that's not a popular thing to do. In turn by trying to regulate home lawns, I think they made the problem worst. Home lawns are now underfed and not more bare, so more chance for erosion.
> 
> I do like to use organic sources in the summer (cracked corn, alfalfa, coffee grounds), but as temps drop, I switch to man made products. They give me a response that I won't get otherwise with organic sources.


Why do you need "a response"? If you are doing organic correctly, you shouldn't need to put down a synthetic fertilizer to see a response. You should be building the soil food web to the point of needing less and less inputs. I am down to fertilizing only once a year (in the fall) with a good organic fertilizer like Ringer or Dr. Earth and that's it. My lawn greens up sooner than most of my synthetic neighbors and stays a steady green all the way through until it goes dormant in winter.


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## dallasguy (9 mo ago)

I have been apply grains to my lawn going into my 11 year now. I use mostly SBM though I use CSM when I want to apply and the feed store does not have any SBM. I will spot pull spring weeds. I have doing spot spraying of weed-b-gone on chick weed so I am not technically organic. My grass looks really good. If I did not have two large live oaks trees, the front would be even better.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

This is a Texas company. I've used their products as it's what was used at the sod farm I purchased from. It's a bit more expensive, but it works well. 
https://www.microlifefertilizer.com/products/


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