# Lay down 24-4-8 going into Winter?



## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

Am thinking of wrapping up my Fall Blitz with a 24-4-8 going into Winter.
Goal is to have a faster greenup next spring.
Have spent First 3 weeks of October doing 46-0-0 Urea spoon feeding & should have lay down 1 lb of N by end of Oct.
Want to lay down another 1 lb of Urea in November & shut it down for 2020.

This would make it ~ 4 lbs (1 in spring, 2 in fall, so far) of N for the year for my TTTF.

Any harm to lay down another 1 lb of N using the slower 24-4-8?


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## Lawn Noobie (Sep 29, 2020)

Following


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

A lot depends on location. Where is CVA?

In the transition zone, you can make more of an argument for later Nitrogen applications on cool season turf if you never see dormancy. In Canada, it would be a waste of money if the grass is going dormant in a month.

You also need to consider the specific Nitrogen source and slow release formulation in your fertilizer. Any temperature dependent slow release formulation will be even slower in cooler temperatures. Sulfur and Polymer coated Urea are at least partially temperature dependent and will be slower in cool weather. Methylene Urea is microbial dependent and will be slow as microbe are going to sleep. IBDU will be less temperature dependent. UMAXX, which stabilizes Urea, will be less temperature dependent.

Nitrogen from Urea will be slower to release in cooler temperatures as it needs bacterial or plant enzymatic action to become available to grass. Most other Nitrogen sources such as Ammonium Sulfate are available without an extra step, so will be more rapidly available.


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## Lawn Noobie (Sep 29, 2020)

bernstem said:


> A lot depends on location. Where is CVA?
> 
> In the transition zone, you can make more of an argument for later Nitrogen applications on cool season turf if you never see dormancy. In Canada, it would be a waste of money if the grass is going dormant in a month.
> 
> ...


@bernstem you seem to know a lot about this topic and not to hijack the OP thread but I rather ask here than starting a whole new one.

I am looking at options of what winterizer I should go with and when to apply it. I believe I am in zone 7a (transition zone outside of DC).

Here are the 3 options I have been looking at:

Sta-Green, 32-0-10 Winterizer 
GREEN THUMB Winterizer Lawn Fertilizer, 32-0-10
Yard Mastery 24-4-8 Macro-Micro Blend

I am open to other cost effective options as well, but can anyone make a recommendation of what is best for a Winterizer and when I should be applying it? TIA


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

Lawn Noobie said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > A lot depends on location. Where is CVA?
> ...


I'm in the same boat and is trying to decide between 2 things I still have in my garage:
Carbon X 24-0-4 or GreenTRX 16-1-2

CarbonX has higher N and faster release but GreenTRX is more cost effective


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## Lawn Noobie (Sep 29, 2020)

@VALawnNoob yeah, I just used the last of my carbon x right before overseeding and the last of my xstart about 4 weeks post overseeding. So now I have to go out and purchase something so I am trying to get whatever is best for N storage for winter for a good green up in spring since I will primarily be focusing on weed control vs fertilizers. Maybe someone would chime in and help all 3 of us out.

I'm assuming that they will suggest you use the carbon x as your winterizer if you already have it over the Green TRX but let's see what the experienced have to say..


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

I am not familiar with all those specific fertilizers. You need to look at the specific ingredients. I do use CarbonX 24-0-4. That is primarily a stabilized Nitrogen rather than a coated Nitrogen so will continue to release at lower temps more than the PCU in the Sta-Green. I don't know what the release profile of the TRX would be.

If you use any of these stabilized Nitrogens, then you will have a slower release. If the ground freezes or growth stops for a long period during winter, then anything sitting in the soil will be lost by the time the turf wakes up again. You need to ask yourself what you want to accomplish. If you want a pool of Nitrogen in the ground in case the weather warms up in November/December, you would want somthing that is stabilized but will still release at cooler temps. If you want to hit the grass with a big slug of Nitrogen just before dormancy (a slightly old school winterizer applications), then you want all fast release, preferably Ammonium sulfate rather than Urea.

I should point out the idea of a stabilized fall application is not standard (even in the transitions zone) and would be wasted outside locations that have a warmer winter. It may not do anything other than waste Nitrogen and add it to our groundwater.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

VALawnNoob said:


> CarbonX has higher N and faster release but GreenTRX is more cost effective


The release rate of CArbonX is not quite what the label would suggest. I am fairly sure the use of the stabilizers and carbon spreads out the release curve quite a bit. I can't find the graph, but it releases over almost 12 weeks. If you want a 100% fast release, your best bet is Urea or Ammonium Sulfate.


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## Lawn Noobie (Sep 29, 2020)

@bernstem sorry but I'm a newb and don't fully understand you and am more confused. I am just looking for a suggestion on a fertilizer (specific brand and type) to put down before winter. And also a suggested time frame of when to put it down. My first frost shows a 90% chance of October 17th but we are past that date and its still 70 degrees with a avg soil temp of 60-64.

I just guess that I'll put it down next week Wednesday or so and hope for the best. And I'll just go with an off the shelf marketed winterizer


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

@Lawn Noobie The Sta Green is mostly fast release uncoated Nitrogen and would be a good choice if you want to apply now. I can't tell what percentage of the Yard Mastery is coated. You are close to the point where you want to start letting the grass slow down and get ready for winter. If it is currently warm and likely to stay warm for a few weeks, you can apply the Sta Green or another mostly fast release nitrogen fertilizer at 0.5 lbs of Nitrogen per 1000 square feet. I would not be applying a full 1 lb/1000 of Nitrogen this close to frost and stopping of top growth.

Check out this thead: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753


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## Lawn Noobie (Sep 29, 2020)

Thanks @bernstem that makes sense to me and I guess I needed the simple version. Hopefully the others are also helped just as I am!


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

bernstem said:


> A lot depends on location. Where is CVA?
> 
> In the transition zone, you can make more of an argument for later Nitrogen applications on cool season turf if you never see dormancy. In Canada, it would be a waste of money if the grass is going dormant in a month.
> 
> ...


@bernstem - CVA = Central VA = Richmond

I've laid down urea 46-0-0 already through out October.
Wanted to get a fast greenup next March cause my lawn is usually the latest to wakeup.

Thought I would go with the Yard Mastery 24-4-8 as the last app of the year.

And the formulation appear to use the Polymer coated Urea.
But what got me confused is that you also stated - in a follow-up post above - that people using these types of fert risk it doing nothing in cold weather or feeding the grass in the middle winter if there is a warm spell during winter.

What I really want is a 'time-bomb' that will detonate as the winter become milder & promote faster spring greenup.

Question for me is - so is what I am using defined as a 'winterizer' fert?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I am seeing a lot of posts lately about winterizer apps. Newer research suggests that late season N apps don't do much to help in the spring. While I'm not saying don't do it, think about the measurable results (or lack thereof) you're actually going to see.

@rockinmylawn it sounds like you are looking for a miracle product that will sit in your soil until spring time that will give you an instant green up. It doesn't exist.

I like to keep it simple and stick with urea in the fall. I'm done my apps for the season but granted I am further north than you.

My advice is to do what you think you should do and record the results in the Spring. So much of this is trial and error. There isn't a single best approach.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you want an early spring green up, then do a spring fert application of a fast release. Why try to time it now in the fall when you can just apply something in March?

Another option is to use a green dye to spray the lawn like the warm season guys do on Bermuda.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

A lot depends on your winter conditions. If the grass continues to grow during the winter, then it shouldn't be treated the same as in Ontario Canada where there is snow cover for 3 months. Most of the research is done expecting a winter dormant period and I would agree that there is no real role for Nitrogen in that situation.

In central Virginia? I honestly don't know the best fall plan. I have similar problems in Saint Louis in that the grass never really goes dormant and will continue growing into December.

@rockinmylawn I can't directly answer your question, but I would be surprised if PCU persists until March from a November application. G-man has the most reliable and simplest solution. Apply fast release Nitrogen in the spring at a low rate to kick start the grass. Too much spring Nitrogen, though, can lead to summer problems so don't push too hard.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Harts said:


> @rockinmylawn it sounds like you are looking for a miracle product that will sit in your soil until spring time that will give you an instant green up. It doesn't exist.


Actually, it might exist. Ok, it's not a miracle product...but I am playing with methylene ureas this Fall, stepping up my game. In the past, using them casually in Fall produced excellent Spring results, so I don't foresee worse results this year. We'll see what happens. I'll detail my experiment soon.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Green methylene urea will remain at around 4in thru all the winter rains without leaching to it can perfectly be released in spring? Why not just apply fast nitrogen in the spring as Dr. Soldat explained in his seminar? Why complicate the simple?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> @Green methylene urea will remain at around 4in thru all the winter rains without leaching to it can perfectly be released in spring? Why not just apply fast nitrogen in the spring as Dr. Soldat explained in his seminar? Why complicate the simple?


I don't know what exact depths in the soil it remains at, but it's known to be fairly resistant to leaching...much less likely to leach compared to regular urea or ammonium sulfate. That's not the main reason I'm experimenting with it, though...it's just an unintended benefit that it helps green-up in early Spring.

The main reason I'm testing it is because it relies on microbial action. I want to see if it produces a self-tapering spoon-feeding-like effect from now until the end of the season. Spoon-feeding isn't practical as far as I'm concerned...I'm too busy mowing and getting leaves taken care of in the Fall.

I could have chosen IBDU instead, but that doesn't rely on microbial action. I felt the chance of overloading the turf with N in the late Fall was too much of a risk.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

Starting to rethink my original post after all your responses.

Ryan Knorr had a good coversation about this here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49xVuvl_kWE


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

as the video above shows, fast release nitrogen at this point is a complete waste.


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