# g-man's lawn journey



## g-man

This is my lawn journey from bare dirt to my current lawn. It is a long term plan since nothing in lawn care is instant. You will see that I first worked on my soil, then on irrigation since it is hard to drag hoses around and then level/grass type.

Background:
New house construction that was seeded by the builder in early May. Sod was place in the front. Of course most of the May seeds never made it.



























In 2015 I fed the weeds, started amending the soil, had patio installed and planted some trees. In my previous house I had a good soil, but this new one was bare of nutrients. I had followed for years Zac Reicher Turf Tips and the Purdue publications. I found ATY looking for help with the soil and started amending and learning more about soils. I dropped KBG/PR and placed sod around the patio mainly for irrigation control. We had a baby in August so there was not really a lot of time for the yard. Soil Tests

2016 - Backyard irrigation install and did a spring KBG seeding (very hard). We had a dry summer and I spent a lot of water in the worst section, but it worked.







Picture from early spring 2016

2017 - Continue irrigation install front right side and side. Switched to mowing lower (1.75in). Bought a reel mower (220E) and rebuild it during the winter.









2018 - Started reel mowing. Defined the mulch beds. Currently at 7/8in hoc. It is mostly in cruise control now, but..









Future Fall 2018 plans:
- Drop to 3/4in hoc
- The fine fescues in the back have suffer with the low hoc and heat and I will smoke them with Tenacity @ 6oz/a rate next week. Seed these part that will have some bare dirt (technically an overseed).
- Significant leveling in the very back. I will round up and seed with Bewitched. 
- Level the ugly side of the house (A/C compressor, gas pipes, etc). Round up and seed with Bewitched. This will be my sod farm for a future reno.
- Irrigation install of front zone.

Future 2019?: I need to bring soil in and level. I would then need to follow the soil to kill any weeds and then have a bewitched mono in the backyard.

---

2018 Fall Reno Section 1

The back side of the backyard is a problem area. When it rains the water runs thru here and it doesnt drain well. This leads to fungus developing here. This section has a lot of fine fescues and small rocks. It was there before the house was built as the in between properties zone for storm water drainage (see image above). It is not leveled and hard to use the reel mower there.

I've added soil to this area to get it more leveled. I used soil I had from redefining the mulch beds plus store bought top soil (Menards). I've been fertilizing and watering it to make any weeds grow. Barely anything grew and the KBG started to spread in there.

Last night I finally applied glyphosate to this area. There are some areas of the fine fescue that did not survived the summer. I plan to let it die and then use a pick ax to take some of the high spots down and get the area more leveled. I also plan to make 3-4 trenches 6in deep and fill with a mix of sand/soil. The idea is for these trenches to help drain the area faster since I do have some grade (think of a french drain).

I will then seed this area with bewitched and water.

2018 Fall Reno A/C side
To be continued...


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## pennstater2005

Glad to see you started this @g-man!!


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Glad to see you started this @g-man!!


 :nod:


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## fusebox7

Journey, it is  Best of luck!


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## wardconnor

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to see you started this @g-man!!
> 
> 
> 
> :nod:
Click to expand...

Double :nod: :nod:


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Can't wait! I've been lazy too... I need to start mine.


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## Green

@g-man, does your present lawn have (or maybe had until you started mowing low) any Tall Fescue?


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## g-man

There is some tall fescue in it. I was thinking it was going to die, but it is doing fine at 3/4in. Alpine noticed the same thing and is doing a reno to get rid of it.


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## g-man

I need to update this thread. I have a draft. Here is an image from this am. I mowed yesterday (hoc 3/4in) and applied glyphosate.

Edit: different image. The first one was out of focus. Ok. I will take new pictures this afternoon with good light. These look terrible in the PC.


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## fusebox7

g-man said:


> I need to update this thread. I have a draft. Here is an image from this am. I mowed yesterday (hoc 3/4in) and applied glyphosate.
> 
> Edit: different image. The first one was out of focus. Ok. I will take new pictures this afternoon with good light. These look terrible in the PC.


Dang.... you're going to kill that!?


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## pennstater2005

Glyphosate to the side yard?


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## g-man

This is the front. I zoomed in to show the 3/4in fescue.


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## g-man

Here is the back yard, the very back portion that is fine fescues, the side and some of the areas I leveled.










This side needs more soil. I will use some of the back to level it.


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## g-man

@fusebox7 and @pennstater2005 glyphosate went down yesterday. It is already starting to take effect. I'm not worried about weeds. I'm not killing it all this year. I need to bring in a couple of yards of soil for that. I'm only working on the worst looking areas and the ones that have drainage problems.

Target seed down is 18aug.


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## social port

@g-man what tool are you using to level? 
Also, are you planning to keep the bewitched that you seed this year, or will it eventually be killed during another, final reno?


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## Green

g-man said:


> This is the front. I zoomed in to show the 3/4in fescue.


I can definitely see it. But that area looks really good, as is. I kind of like the effect of TF mowed low.


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## g-man

Social port - It is not really a level, it is a grading. I need to finish my write up since I explained it in there. I plan to keep these areas in the future and not reno them again, hence why I want to get the grading correctly. I plan to use them as donors plots if needed. I also plan to add a cup for my son to putt in the area.

Green - it looks good and I wont reno it this year, but I dont know how long it will last. I haven't seen a lot of info of a northern mix mowed at 3/4in.


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## Green

g-man said:


> Green - it looks good and I wont reno it this year, but I dont know how long it will last. I haven't seen a lot of info of a northern mix mowed at 3/4in.


Supposedly there are things you can do to help Tall Fescue survive a low HOC. And of course some cultivars deal with it better than others. I believe part of the trick is raising the HOC up to about 1.5 in or so by mid Fall as the sun angle declines. I'm not sure where I heard this. 1.5 is supposed to be the lowest it can tolerate, but you're proving it can go lower.

Also many think of TTTF as needing less N than KBG, but it can be managed high N too. I don't know how HOC impacts the N needs, but I would guess it might increase them.

I think if you can pull off the TTTF mowed low long term, you will really have something truly awesome!


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## zeus201

Look forward to your progress.

I feel like there is tall fescue hanging on in my nomix reel mowed under 1 inch. Haven't decided to keep it this low going into its' first winter.


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## Green

Also I was reading TTTF product sheets, and while most are advertised as being ok to 1.5 in, I saw a few that said 3/4 in was ok, and one that said 2 in minimum at the other extreme. So yours may have adapted.

Have you needed fungicides?


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## g-man

The only area that got some fungicides was the very back. This is the area that I'm going to reno and re-grade due to drainage issues. My house is a 3 years old and the ground is still settling. I dont know what TTTF I have. It was sod/contractor mix. I overseeded the bare backyard. I call it overseed, while accurate, it was a a very thin lawn from a spring seeding and patio construction.

I'm going to keep it at 3/4in and maybe go up to 1in at the tail end of the fall. I'm sure it will be fine. If the TTTF dies, then I will feed the rest to spread, but I dont think the TTTF will die.


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## Hyna32

Looking forward to following this!


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## Anthony Drexler

Turf looks great g-man!


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## g-man

Weekend update:

I worked in leveling the back. The back had a hump to it. It was made by the builder when they prepped the lots. When the house was then built, they graded and leveled up to this area, but it settled. This created a problem of the area in front of the hump to collect water and fungus. The ditch between lots was also very deep that made reel mowing a challenge. I filled the ditch a month ago to follow the dirt.

So I killed this area and then expanded it further this weekend as I noticed it needed more. I used an pick ax to dig 3 French drains channels. I will add some pea gravel and then sand and then top soil. The idea is that these help the water reach the ditch area.

I also used a shovel parallel to the ground to remove a lot the hump out and trying to level it. I'm following now but I doubt I will get weeds, since I have avoided bringing new soil. Seed down was the 18aug, but the wife chose to do a last minute birthday party. Weather is not looking great with rain, so 25aug or a weekday if things look good.

I still need to level the side yard, but it is only 6ft wide, so it should be quick.

Future Reno area (2019)









The bags are covering the trenches. I will filled them today or tomorrow with pea gravel and sand.









I filled that small container with rocks twice from all the digging.


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## g-man

Im breaking rules like wardconnor. I took off the groomer nuts and adjuster and just let the groomer ride in the ground. Awesome. This helps expose the soil so it could get seeds. After raking, I could drop seed in this area, but we are getting some heavy rains so we will see. I still need to work on the side.


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## Green

Nice! You made your own dethatcher/verticutter.


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## iowa jim

g-man said:


> Im breaking rules like wardconnor. I took off the groomer nuts and adjuster and just let the groomer ride in the ground. Awesome. This helps expose the soil so it could get seeds. After raking, I could drop seed in this area, but we are getting some heavy rains so we will see. I still need to work on the side.


O no, now we have two lawn rebels.


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## g-man

The rule i broke was around the greens mower. The manual says not to do this. I knew the risks and how the gears work. I think with Bermuda it could be more of an issue since the runners are stronger to break than a cool season grass.


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## fusebox7

g-man said:


> The rule i broke was around the greens mower. The manual says not to do this. I knew the risks and how the gears work. I think with Bermuda it could be more of an issue since the runners are stronger to break than a cool season grass.


Not that you want to purchase one (since you found a (albeit potentially risky) workaround) but don't they make verticutter reel assemblies for that machine? I'm sure they're hella expensive... I saw the OEM front broom/brush attachment is like $550. LOL.


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## g-man

@Pete1313 Moving the conversation here.

I've been using the groomer at the lowest setting that I could still thread the nut and that lever piece. I was not happy with it. It was lower than the HOC by around 1/3in. When I stopped and started I could see it was breaking up the thatch, but not while mowing.

Since I'm doing a small reno I wanted to expose the soil without using a rake. So I tried this. I then tried it in the good side (not the reno). It works, but I would only do this for a once or twice a year cleanup.

I think the main problem (besides using a machine is intended for greens hoc) is the compression spring. By extending it to go lower, the spring is not in compression as much. The groomer then rides on top of the grass instead of into it. I think I should make a spacer (a washer and a larger nut) for it to keep the spring in compression.

@fusebox7 The risk is one bushing not sold by itself but as part of TCA16576. The whole gear/bushing is $176. I took dimensions of the bushing and I think I could reverse engineer it if needed. I was careful at first to see if I noticed the system slipping or struggling, but it looks alright. I dont think they make verticutters for this head. It would be hard to swap the reel out since you will need to completely take the head/bearings apart.


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## g-man

@wardconnor I move the conversation here.

Yes, I've noticed the sponge feel to the lawn in some areas. I think setting up the groomer differently plus more molasses should prevent it from getting too bad. I'm not sure I would even call it thatch, it is more like too much horizontal grow.


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## Pete1313

g-man said:


> I dont think they make verticutters for this head. It would be hard to swap the reel out since you will need to completely take the head/bearings apart.


They do make verticutters for the QA5 head.
https://www.greenfarmparts.com/arti...al_Cutting_Units/95860002/9586F651C3412000005
Pricey to buy the whole unit, but could make one cheaper if you had an extra QA5 cutting unit. Also RRProducts has a whole assembly available but is the older M22 frame. 
https://www.rrproducts.com/aspx/sto...ERE^2500B^VERTI_CUT_UNIT_030000^COMPLETE_UNIT
It is around $1300. I know the M22's would be compatible with my machine but not sure on yours. The biggest issue for the 220E would be figuring out how to get the verticutter to spin backwards and still be able to drive it around. I know on my 2500B the manual outlines how to do it by swapping the 2 hydro lines around. I've seen QA5 verticutter units go thru auction but were too pricey for me to pull the trigger at the time.


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## fusebox7

g-man said:


> @fusebox7 The risk is one bushing not sold by itself but as part of TCA16576. The whole gear/bushing is $176. I took dimensions of the bushing and I think I could reverse engineer it if needed. I was careful at first to see if I noticed the system slipping or struggling, but it looks alright. I dont think they make verticutters for this head. It would be hard to swap the reel out since you will need to completely take the head/bearings apart.


Gotcha - I thought they made the whole unit that you could swap out (eg. cutting reel out for verticutter) the whole assembly not just the reel itself. I might be thinking of a different model or machine.


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## wardconnor

g-man said:


> @wardconnor I move the conversation here.
> 
> Yes, I've noticed the sponge feel to the lawn in some areas. I think setting up the groomer differently plus more molasses should prevent it from getting too bad. I'm not sure I would even call it thatch, it is more like too much horizontal grow.


Yeah... its not thatch.. It is definitely horizontal growth on top of the soil. For lack of a better term I think that the pros and golf folks just call it thatch. I could be wrong.

Beat that lawn up... It will love you later for it.

When you were doing that did you feel like you were being a little bad or a little bit of a #lawnrebel ?


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## g-man

I'm getting concerned. It's been raining and the soil is very saturated. They cancelled my son's soccer game for tomorrow, because the fields are a mess. They normally wait 1hr before the game to cancel.

I mowed in between storm clouds. I then tried to use the greens to dethatch and it became stucked in the mud. I then used the hard rake but I can't take the dead stuff out since it mixes with the mud. I know I will get good seed to soil contact, but I don't like leaving the dead crowns there. More rain is forecasted.


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## g-man

Weekend update

It was a muddy mess. I let Saturday for things to dry some in the backyard section. I worked on the side section. I've neglected it. I redid the mulch bed areas to make it easier to reel mow here and also to use the soil for leveling more. I raked to level the surfaces. It is still not how I want it, but I ran out of soil. I applied more round up since I could still see some green in some areas.

Sunday was the big day. I used the trimmer to break up the dead/muddy grass. I then fired up the rotary and set it as low as possible (deck on the ground) and used it to vacuum. Lastly I used the rake to break the soil up and smooth things over. This took a lot of time since it was all muddy. Last night I applied more round up for good measure. The area is ready for seeds after the forecasted storms. I will rake it one more time, drop the seed, rake, tenacity and then roll it with the 220E. I'm going to use the m-binder to help keep everything there.

The side of the house is lagging. I used the rotary too, but not as successful since it is a hill. I ran out of batteries for the string trimmer. I applied some bagged soil. I will use the string trimmer today and try to seed the soil in this area. It is better than what is was. I want to drop seeds but I might hold off on this area to get it better.

I also mowed yesterday and my son applied molasses and milk. There are some area that look to be developing a fungus. Hopefully I will get to it soon.

Pictures of the progress.





































I had a crazy idea. I have some high spots from the trench of the irrigation pipes. I'm thinking of using the rotary to scalp it and knock it down. I would then seed the area and let the kbg fill it. It will look ugly, but it should help with next year reno. I'm not sure if I will do this.


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## pennstater2005

Looks good. The m binder is definitely a little peace of mind during any heavy rains.


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## iowa jim

Good call on the m binder, i wish i would have used it on my reno. I have heard nothing but good about it. The reason i didn't use it is because i wasn't thinking.


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## g-man

I had 1.5in of rain in less than an hour. Back area looks good. Side yard had a ton of run off. I'm glad I waited for seed down. More rain in the forecast for tonight and tomorrow.


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## g-man

Today was seed down day. Well, that was the plan.

The rainy week ended last night. The soil washed to the bottom of the ditch and created a mess. My intent was to drop the seed today, but shoveling and raking to prep the area took a long time and it got too dark; plus it is still too wet to drive the 220E in there. All I have to do tomorrow is seed, rake, roll and tenacity. But first there is soccer practice.

I got more soil for the side lawn. I'm going to try to prep and drop seed tomorrow too.

I did mowed the rest of the lawn. I missed the PGR GDD day and with all the rain, it is growing like crazy.

Edit: I took some pictures this am.


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## JDgreen18

Good luck on the weather....run off sucks. The m binder seems to work pretty good I just used it on a smaller spot I just seeded. Are you going to apply it dry or mix it with water and spray it


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## g-man

I'm planning on dry application with mask and gloves.


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## g-man

Raked, dropped seed (2lb/ksqft), raked, rolled and watered. Then tenacity at 1/2 tsp/gallon/ksqft.

And then I screwed up. It was dark and I was rushing to drop the m-binder. I was not thinking, and I thought I ordered a 5lb bag. I was had tossing it and I did most of the bag, like 8lb/ksqft. I wanted 2.5lb/ksqft if I read the instructions right.

I will have to see how it looks tomorrow and I might rake some off. @Suburban Jungle Life I think you used this before, thoughts? I applied straight into bare soil.


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## rob13psu

g-man said:


> Raked, dropped seed (2lb/ksqft), raked, rolled and watered. Then tenacity at 1/2 tsp/gallon/ksqft.
> 
> And then I screwed up. It was dark and I was rushing to drop the m-binder. I was not thinking, and I thought I ordered a 5lb bag. I was had tossing it and I did most of the bag, like 8lb/ksqft. I wanted 2.5lb/ksqft if I read the instructions right.
> 
> I will have to see how it looks tomorrow and I might rake some off. @Suburban Jungle Life I think you used this before, thoughts? I applied straight into bare soil.


I did the same thing. I was having trouble spreading it with the spreader, so I decided to hand toss it. Before I knew it I had covered 2,700' with most of the bag. Granted, the little bit of wind took some of that with it.


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## pennstater2005

I used an entire 10# bag of m-binder over 2k. No problems. Quite honestly it didn't seem like enough.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> Raked, dropped seed (2lb/ksqft), raked, rolled and watered. Then tenacity at 1/2 tsp/gallon/ksqft.
> 
> And then I screwed up. It was dark and I was rushing to drop the m-binder. I was not thinking, and I thought I ordered a 5lb bag. I was had tossing it and I did most of the bag, like 8lb/ksqft. I wanted 2.5lb/ksqft if I read the instructions right.
> 
> I will have to see how it looks tomorrow and I might rake some off. @Suburban Jungle Life I think you used this before, thoughts? I applied straight into bare soil.


I used the 10 lb bag over maybe 1M. I just couldn't seem to spread it thinner. In the end, the spots where I was heavier handed ended up forming a kind of crust. It held all the peat in place which was nice during heavy rain. Just seemed to be a little harder to get water to penetrate. A little more watering. Grass came in beautifully where I went heavy. A few months later, all the peat seemed to disappear along with the m-binder. I wouldn't be concerned about going heavy aside from the cost. I just hated spreading it. Doing it by hand, half just blew away. I had to bend over to spread it close to the ground so less would blow away. A real hassle. If I was doing patch work, I would use it since that would be small areas.

I think it really wasn't designed to be used this way. It is for a hydro seeding machine so it is supposed to be mixed with seed, "mulch" or paper, and water. Then sprayed with a generously large nozzle. I tried to add the m-binder to a watering can and mixed water with it to simulate this effect. The watering can has a shower type nozzle at the end and the little holes kept clogging. I poked the holes bigger but the solution started turning jelly like and still didn't want to pass through the holes. I just poured it from a 5 gal bucket and I couldn't really spread it like that. Just ended up having poured lines probably with way too much of it. That was in spring. It's all broken down now with no remnants. If you can get light to medium and uniform coverage, then m-binder is wonderful.

I seed in 1-2 weeks. I bought PAM. It is crystals which you dissolve and spray. I'm going to try using my sprayer. This should be a lot easier to apply uniformly. I'm doing a reno and using peat to cover. I'll let you know the outcome. I'm hoping this is the way to go since it's a lot cheaper too... $40 is enough to cover a acre!


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## g-man

I was worried last night over the m-binder. I started researching about it (and PAM) and now I know far more than I ever want to. The biggest risk is that it could bind the seed and not let it germinate. I'm not using any peat moss and I applied it just to the dirt.

I looked at it in the am and there were some very heavy areas. I took a broom and spread the worst of it over to the grass areas. I then watered it all in. I setup an extra sprinkler head for the last 2feet that are outside my irrigation zone. I'm watering 1min every hour via the rachio.

There is a storm approaching tonight, so we will see how it holds. I will likely roll the area again with the 220E tonight prior ot the storms.


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## g-man

It got sunny and windy, ET must be higher. It was not as moist as I like it. Up the time to 5min.


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## pennstater2005

@g-man Pics? I need some pics!


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## g-man

Pictures: seed down


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## pennstater2005

Looks good. Did you get the tackifier all figured out? I don't see any excess.


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## Pete1313

Regarding the m-binder, has anyone tried putting it in a carrier such as milorganite like one might do when doing a micronutrient app to the lawn? By putting the milo in a wheelbarrow, misting it with water, spreading the powder on top and then mixing it all together. The rate of 2.5 lbs/M for the m-binder might make it alittle tricky, but I recently just put 7.25 lbs of borax into 72 lbs of milorganite without any issues. One could try 2.5 lbs of m-binder mixed in 20 lbs of milo and then spread that across 1M. The milo would then serve as the seed down fertilizer app. I have no experience with m-binder, just wondering for future renos. Thoughts?


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## g-man

@Pete1313 the m-binder is like the consistency of corn starch. I did not enjoy using it and I don't think I will use it again. The PAM product seems better, but I think it was waterway restrictions.

It really needs to be applied to the soil or straw. When wet, it turns into a mucus like stuff. Similar to the inside of okra. I think if you use a carrier, it will stick to the carrier only.

There is a line of storm approaching, so it will get tested.

@pennstater2005 I used a broom to brush off the excess.


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## g-man

I mowed last night the rest of the yard and rolled the reno area with the 220E. The broom made it a little rough (more surface area for evaporation + erosion risk). We had a few storms this am with a total of 0.25in of rain. It all looks great. right now. 

I need to organize the garage. I made a mess of tools and spray tanks.


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## mustafa

@g-man Why did you put tenacity when reseeding?


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## g-man

mustafa said:


> @g-man Why did you put tenacity when reseeding?


Tenacity is a miracle product. When applied to the soil it will prevent most weeds from developing, but allows most grasses to grow.


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## g-man

Torrential downpour. I don't think the m binder could survive this. I will post pictures soon. I want to see the damage first. The storm was moving from left to right.


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## g-man

I'm on my way to menards to get soil. I can't see seeds, so I'm assuming it is all lost.

I don't know if I should do more tenacity.


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## pennstater2005

Sorry to see that. That is a lot of water!


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## STL

@g-man ouch! That might have been the same storm that hit us. If you did the 4oz rate, I'd probably re apply tenacity, at least in that back flooded area.


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## alpine0000

Ugh. That pains me to see, g-man. I am going through the same thing right now in my lawn with my renovation project. Spent $450 on sand/topsoil, $150 on seed, and $50 on peat moss. Spent 3 days of labor out there getting it leveled and seeded and everything else. 3 days later, a washout and half of the product and labor is lost. Bummer!


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## iowa jim

I feel your pain as i spent 4 hours reseeding the other day. I also put scotts weed preventer starter fertilizer back down with the seed and hoping that will not be to much as not sure how much of that actually washed away.


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## g-man

@alpine0000 this is part of the risk. To me the materials cost is not as important as the wasted time and effort. The clock is ticking and winter is coming. The wife is not happy of me spending more time in the yard than the kids and she is right.

@STL these storms are forming 15miles from my house. There is a boundary of warm air from the southwest slowing pushing the cold air. It keeps switching from cold to hot outside.

I got the soil, have another pound of seeds ready to go and there is another cell of storms approaching. Extended forecast is more storms on Wednesday and Saturday.

Current plan:
Drop more seeds on top of the washed out area. Walk over the seeds to press them into the mud. Shovel some of washed out dirt back into the Reno area. Topcoat with bag topsoil. Tomorrow spray 2oz rate of tenacity (since I will have new soil with old in there, o can deal with weeds later). Roll the soil with the 220E once it is dryer.

I'm open to any ideas. I bought a 10lb bag of seeds, so I could keep dropping more, but more washouts like this are a problem. If not then sod.


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## Mozart

Wow @g-man that's a crazy storm. You literally have a river running through your yard!

It looks like you are reseeding a slope next to your patio. Why not buy a few landscaping nails and a thin plastic sheet (plastic drop cloth?) and nail down the plastic along the patio. Keep the plastic rolled/folded up on your patio. When you are expecting a storm simply unroll/unfold the plastic to cover the seed bed and perhaps Place a few rocks along the perimeter to hold it in place. Remove when storm passes (use a leaf blower to remove excess water from the plastic before re-folding/rolling)

Would that work for you? Should be a cheap and hopefully effective solution.


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## pennstater2005

Mozart said:


> Wow @g-man that's a crazy storm. You literally have a river running through your yard!
> 
> It looks like you are reseeding a slope next to your patio. Why not buy a few landscaping nails and a thin plastic sheet (plastic drop cloth?) and nail down the plastic along the patio. Keep the plastic rolled/folded up on your patio. When you are expecting a storm simply unroll/unfold the plastic to cover the seed bed and perhaps Place a few rocks along the perimeter to hold it in place. Remove when storm passes (use a leaf blower to remove excess water from the plastic before re-folding/rolling)
> 
> Would that work for you? Should be a cheap and hopefully effective solution.


That's a good idea :thumbup:

I will use a seed germination blanket for a few sloped areas at some point in the future.


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## SNOWBOB11

That's super unfortunate @g-man. Washouts are the biggest risk when renoing. I'm sure you'll level it out, put more seed and it will turn out just fine.


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## social port

Seed slicer for dropping the seeds. Roll it. Tackifier for insurance. Maybe some light peat.


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## g-man

@social port I had a river in my backyard. The soil I leveled all washed away. At the end I was able to see 2mm OD earthworms swimming on top of the clay. I rolled it the night before and had a tackifier (m-binder). The tackifier worked, it kept the soil together as it was pushed down the slope from the water underneath. By the way, it is still raining and more rain is on the way.

@Suburban Jungle Life Could you share the source/name of the PAM?

My new plan is seed, tackifier, then soil on top. At least this way the seed stays (I hope). I also need to order a small boat.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

https://www.domyown.com/profile-flocloc-p-9598.html

Maybe spray each layer so it holds it to the existing dirt underneath? Not sure if that would be too much though.


----------



## g-man

Ordered. Thanks.

I just dropped the seed. It was a pain to walk. I was sinking in the soil and squeezing the water out. I'm going to let it dry. Then I'm going to apply what I have left of m-binder and then top soil to cover. Roll and then spray the PAM. Hopefully before the next rains.


----------



## TravisH06

Oh dang. You're getting hammered. Good luck this time.


----------



## g-man

Sunday update:

I checked the rain gauge, 2.5in yesterday.

Mother nature won the first round. Now it is round two. I dropped seed this am. It was very wet and I almost slipped. I tried to step on the seeds, but it was pointless.

I then applied what I had left of the m-binder. I was very careful to try to cover the whole area with what I had. I then let it get wet and disolve. I then let the area dry up. It was hot and sunny today.

In the afternoon I saw the m-binder start to set. I trigger the irrigation to get it wet again. The goal is to make the seed stick to the clay soil underneath. I think it worked. I then took bag of top soil and without stepping on the m binder, threw the soil in the air to cover the entire area.

My son helped me and he loved the getting dirty throwing soil around. Mom was not thrilled, but YOLO. I added 1/4lb more of seed to this top layer. I then let this absorb some of the moisture and start to dry again. Lastly I took the 220E and very carefully rolled it. It worked ok for most areas except the very wet one.

I mowed the rest of the lawn since I had the 220E warmed up and I was outside. Amazing how much grow it had from just two day (hoc at 3/4in). I took the time to trim shrubs and do some general clean up.

Pictures will be tomorrow since it got too dark. I need to get back into pgr since I can't keep up.

Future plans:
There is more rain forecasted. I don't want another downpour mess. I went somewhat heavy on seeds, but I want more roots to hold the soil down. I will spray PAM as soon as it gets here, hopefully before germination.


----------



## g-man

The PAM is schedule for delivery tomorrow, but it might be too late.



















It is going to rain. The question is the rate.


----------



## Mozart

I hope the rain holds off for you until you get that PAM delivery. Is a physical barrier out of the question for your slope area? It seems that you are at mother nature's mercy for your ditch/riverbed area but I the slope won't be underwater so maybe you can take control. Whatever you do, good luck!


----------



## g-man

@Mozart If I'm home, I could place a tarp during the rain, but I cant work from home this week. I don't want to place it without rain because it will likely kill anything underneath with the full sun and 90F weather. Even if the PAM gets here, I still need to apply it. It is unlikely I will get it down before Thursday.


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## g-man

I took pictures yesterday. This is how it looks before the rains.

Wave 1 of the rain was this am. From the security camera it looks good. Wave 2 will be here late this afternoon. I'm hoping it misses me.










This is my trusted reno timer. It is 13years old and still works great. I replaced the 4way splitter with a tractor supply one. The ball valves have bigger IDs.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> I replaced the 4way splitter with a tractor supply one.


Is the TSC splitter the one shown in the picture above?


----------



## g-man

Yes. Most splitter have very small ball valves. The tractor supply one is very different and doesn't restrict the flow as much.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Yes. Most splitter have very small ball valves. The tractor supply one is very different and doesn't restrict the flow as much.


OK, I couldn't find those splitters at my TSC. I could only find the brass ones, and I am returning them.
I'm going to hold out until I can pick up some like yours.


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## g-man

This one

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-4-way-metal-manifold-with-shutoff


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## social port

Yours is 3 dollars CHEAPER than the one I have!

Ok, my mind is set. I must have those splitters.


----------



## g-man

I got lucky! The rain went south of me.

PAM is here. After multiple checks of rates, I'm doing 30grams /M. No germination yet, so it should be ok to apply.


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## g-man

So, no don't try this. I placed the 30grams into 2gallons in a bucket. It became fairly thick. It is like a bad case of the flu with a thick phlegm. It wont come out the backpack sprayer with a nozzle. I ended spreading around a gallon. I now added 4 more gallons of water to see if I could make this flow.

Using Milo as a carrier might be a better option.


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## g-man

Uff, I stopped. The dilution helped, but my arm is tired (I used the hand pump backpack instead of the electric). I watered the amount I applied. I think 30g/M is too much. Maybe 5-10g/M.


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## Mozart

Why not mix it with lime as a carrier? It's a fine powder, right?

I would imagine the powder settling at the bottom of your spreader if you use milorganite as a carrier.

Lime might be the perfect particle size to use as a carrier, just make sure it's mixed in well and spread with a broadcast spreader. Easy :thumbup:

A flour sifter might also work.


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## g-man

I dont want more lime in my soil. My pH is already 8.

A technique to apply small stuff (30g is small qty), is to mist milo and then sprinkle the stuff. Milo becomes sticky and the powder attaches. You will then apply the milo to the desired area.

The product needs to be dissolved in water. It is really designed for hydroseeding using big pump machines and not a backpack sprayer.


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## Mozart

Oh interesting, so it needs to be dissolved before you apply it? Would a hose end sprayer work in that case? Of course you wouldn't put all 30g in at once, you would need to do it in sections. But it might allow for more flow volume versus the backpack sprayer.

30g is about 1/4 cup i'd guess? Just curious how much Milo would you mix that small amount with? Wouldn't the resulting PAM coverage match the distribution of Milo on the ground and not provide even washout protection?


----------



## g-man

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> https://www.domyown.com/profile-flocloc-p-9598.html
> 
> Maybe spray each layer so it holds it to the existing dirt underneath? Not sure if that would be too much though.


FYI, dont try a backpack sprayer.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.domyown.com/profile-flocloc-p-9598.html
> 
> Maybe spray each layer so it holds it to the existing dirt underneath? Not sure if that would be too much though.
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, dont try a backpack sprayer.
Click to expand...

awww. That's what I was going to do. Think it'll clog? Maybe use a watering can?


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## g-man

I posted above. I wanted to take a picture, but had my hands full of the thick phlegm. Maybe dissolving some in a hand sprayer might work. It just seems to need a lot of water. I did not wanted to overwater since I'm on day 5 post seed down. Mix some in a 5 gallon bucket and wait 5 minutes. It will settle at the bottom. It seems to be a good product.


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## Mozart

According to the link below, PAM _can_ be used as a powder.

If it were me I would use a sieve or even a salt shaker if the particles are really fine and apply it evenly by hand. I would probably apply to damp ground and mist it in after application. Sounds messy the way you're doing it, but seems like it will still work!

Also from what I've read 30g of the stuff should be applied in no less than 66 gallons of water (1000 gallons per pound), wow! That's a lot of water for 30g and would explain the viscosity issues with your backpack sprayer.

Hope this is helpful!

https://www.michigan.gov/documents/deq/nps-polyacrylamide_332130_7.pdf


----------



## g-man

@Mozart Thanks for the link. This part is interesting:



> Typically, PAM tackifiers should be used at a rate of no more than 0.5-1 lb per 1,000 gallons of water in hydro mulch machine. Some tackifier product instructions say to use at a rate of 3-5 lbs per acre, which can be too much. In addition, pump problems can occur at higher rates due to increased viscosity.


I would be tempted to try 10g/M in a new reno area. The dry stuff is larger than table salt, maybe more like kosher salt. I'm not 100% sure how the dry application will work since it needs a lot of water to expand/create the chains in the polymer. My materials engineer is still on vacation, so I cant ask her.

I'm reluctant to do anything right now. Weather forecast shows some pop up showers, but nothing significant.


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## g-man

:banana: Germination!! :banana:

It is only in a small area without any slope, so it might be from the original seed down, but it doesn't matter.


----------



## social port

:thumbup: I've been waiting for that news. Congrats!


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## pennstater2005

Nice. Of course without a picture.....you know......


----------



## STL

@g-man Alright! Congrat's! But, I agree... pics or it didn't happen.


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## g-man

Soccer practice and it is too sunny for good images. I will try later tonight.


----------



## g-man

Ecco le qua


----------



## pennstater2005

g-man said:


> Ecco le qua


They are there indeed!! Nice!


----------



## Mozart

Congratulations g-man! And it's really cool that you have a materials engineer to consult, let us know what he/she says about the dry PAM application


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## iowa jim

Congratulations on the new green babies.


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## g-man

More germination! Pop up rain moved away.

There is an area staying too wet and it is growing algae. I need to walk in the middle and point the sprinkler to another area. I will drop more seeds in this area too. I'm not taking any chances.


----------



## g-man

Full spread germination! Too wet area barely has any. I'll be dropping more seeds there.

I need to get the better camera out there for some close ups.


----------



## g-man

Just got lucky. Another line of storms formed 2 miles from my house and missed me.


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## g-man

Weekend update:

Watering and preventing the soil from getting dry. I have full germination and I'm in the waiting period. We had 90+F full sun and windy. The soil was drying super fast. I mowed the yard and collected the clippings. I then spread some clippings as ground cover over the reno area. This has two benefits: 1) ground cover from the sun/wind to keep the soil moist and 2) some nutrients to feed the lawn as the clippings breakdown. It worked great today while I was at work. The only problem is that it hides the germination, so no pictures.

Around 6pm we had a pop up cells develop. I had some rain, but no washout. It is great to get some natural rain than my hard water irrigation. 3 miles west from me had 0.6in of rain in 30min. I'm glad it missed me.

I'm monitoring the potential rains and trying to figure out what to do. I might sprinkle some PAM in the big slope area.


----------



## Sinclair

Lets hope the remnants of Trop Storm Gordon are kind to us northern renovators this weekend/next week.


----------



## jessehurlburt

@g-man I'd be curious your thoughts on when heavy downpours are no longer a major issue. In other words, are you safe as soon as you see germination and have green babies? Could very new grass get washed out, or is it safe once it tacks down? I have grass that is just starting to poke its head out and we're supposed to see severe storms tomorrow in CT.


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## g-man

I think it depends on the soil structure. I disturbed mine to get the slope/grade better and I have an incline with water path, so washout is a risk for me.

I assume that root length is equal to the top grow. It will depend on size how much those roots could resist the force of the water rushing over them. Also the water will erode some of the soil around the seeds and make them looser. That's why I want to add PAM to help with erosion.

The short answer is, I dont really know and I dont think there is research around this. Right now I'm just hoping for the best and expecting a washout/reseed.


----------



## g-man

It seems like I have two logs going on. I created a thread for PAMS in the soil forum. So some duplicate info.

Yesterday I applied PAM to the Reno areas. This was in anticipation of heavy forecasted rains this weekend. Well, we had a downpour today and it was heavy. Thankfully the Reno did not washed out. I washed some of it via the video camera stopped at red lights. It took me an hour to get home from the heavy rains.

Let's see if I survive the weekend.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Hopefully the rains this weekend are more long duration instead of heavy downpours so your washout isn't too bad. Have to say though I was looking at the system thats going to track in for you and it looks like it has more than a bit of moisture with it. :?


----------



## g-man

The latest 1-3day precipitation forecast. While a lot of rain, if it is slow and steady, I think i will be ok. Saturday into Sunday seems to be the worst of it. I tested my sump pump and backup sump pump.


----------



## g-man

There is currently a heavy downpour going on. It woke me up. I don't want to look outside.


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## g-man

1.5in yesterday. Then last night around 1am it started to pour heavy. 1.5in from 1am to 6am. At the worst part it was 0.5in/hr rate. My first wash out was 0.75in/hr rate but not these many inches of total rain.

Good news, the young grass roots held t there, but there was some erosion. More rain for the rest of the day.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Ouch! I feel for you on all of that rain!


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## iowa jim

Sorry about the rain causing washouts. Are you going to reseed or do you think its to late in the year?


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## g-man

It is not too late for PRG and try again next year. But, there is still plenty of young kbg grass in there. I will evaluate on Monday.


----------



## g-man

Latest forecast: "An inch or two of rain could fall per hour overnight" 

What is a good PRG monostand to try?


----------



## social port

Painful that you've had so many rain issues this month. 
It hurts me too.
I don't know much about the PRG varieties, but I would start by looking at what Ryan Knorr used (don't think it was a mono, though). Lawntips also used PRG, I believe, and it looked great.

I'll be interested to see which route you go. I have a feeling that you are going to end the season on top somehow.


----------



## Pete1313

g-man said:


> Latest forecast: "An inch or two of rain could fall per hour overnight"
> 
> What is a good PRG monostand to try?


Sorry about all that rain. This has been a rough year for renovators.

I have been looking at pangea PRG a bit. I believe @Turfguy93 has a monostand of it.


----------



## g-man

I just went out there to check on things before leaving the house. There is more erosion. There is also a fungus in the backyard, likely PB.

I threw 30g of the dry tackifier. I will throw more tonight before the heavy rain. I will also place a shower curtain to the side slope.

It is just grass. Other folks are having a harder time with flooding. The city is handing out sand bags. I also know if I loose power, my backup sump pump will not be able to keep up.


----------



## Sinclair

You know, I never paid attention to it when I bought my house, so it was just dumb luck, but I am near the highest elevation in the area, and all the drainage creeks and wetlands are at least 50 feet lower in elevation than my basement, and my street slopes away from my lot.

I don't plan on moving, but if I did, I'd look for similar qualities. The concern of flooding never crosses my mind here.


----------



## iowa jim

g-man said:


> Latest forecast: "An inch or two of rain could fall per hour overnight"
> 
> What is a good PRG monostand to try?


I don't know any thing about prg. but there is a category in the NTEP trials for it.


----------



## g-man

I applied more PAM. There is still grass there. The bulk of the strong rain is approaching now until midnight or so. I'm going to apply more PAM at around 8pm. Nothing else I could do.


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## g-man

We had 2.8.in yesterday, 0.5 in last night. A total of 4.8in since Friday. The high precipitation rate missed me last night by 20miles, so that helped. The rain ended on Sunday am. I was prepping to mow the yard and see the damage when more rain showed up at 2pm.

It is still raining, misting, windy, cold and cloudy since yesterday. Nascar was postponed to today, but it is still cloudy and wet out there. This morning I was able to do the flashlight test. There is still plenty of young grass there, but the path of the water flow is bare. You could only see rocks in those areas, so I will at least need to somehow add more topsoil. The rest of the yard is not looking great with will this rain.


----------



## g-man

I stayed home this am to be able to take pictures and see if I needed to throw more seed. And I will...

The weather stayed dry in the afternoon. It was still cloudy, but at least no more rain. I called the wife on my way home from work to give her enough warning that was going to be doing yard work all evening.

First, I mowed the lawn. It was tough. I used the baskets to collect the clippings since I did not wanted more moisture in the soil. I set the HOC at 1in and the clippings were 2.5in long. I broke a couple of rules. I was stopping every 2 passes to empty the basket and collected 2 30 gallon paper bags of clippings for my 5k. They were too many stranglers so I then mowed without the baskets in the opposite direction. There are still too many stranglers!

Finally I applied azoxy and another fungicide (thick white one) because I'm out of propi. There is some Pythium blight that I spotted before the rains, azoxy should control it.

Back to the reno. It is looking great. I wanted to use the early sun light to see the grass better. There is barely any damage. I wont drop more seeds in the back area. The side yard I will drop a few, but it is probably not needed. I will edit to upload the pictures from the cell. Last night I dropped some MAP to give it phosphorous and some nitrogen.


----------



## ronjon84790

Looks great! @g-man


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## SNOWBOB11

For the amount of washout you had it looks like you have very good germination. With some N it will fill right in.


----------



## LawnSolo

Getting there! It's so hard to grow KBG! I know the pain.


----------



## g-man

@SNOWBOB11 I forgot to mention that I dropped some MAP last night.

Thanks everyone else. Sunny and nice days ahead, so it should get better.


----------



## iowa jim

Very uniform and what snowbob11 said.


----------



## gm560

Looking great @g-man . Good to see that even after answering all of our questions here, you still have time for your own lawn!


----------



## Sinclair

Wow, your front yard is dense! I love the look when the grass blades are so tight, everyone is standing vertical.


----------



## Turfguy93

@Pete1313 @g-man you are correct and it's really a beautiful grass


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> I called the wife on my way home from work to give her enough warning that was going to be doing yard work all evening.


It is lawn season!

I'm glad to hear that things seem to be moving in a better direction. Agree with Sinclair that the front yard is something special.


----------



## g-man

@social port I ended around 9pm. Communication is key to healthy relationships. She took care of the kids. Today it is my turn.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> @social port I ended around 9pm. Communication is key to healthy relationships. She took care of the kids. Today it is my turn.


Sounds familiar. I compare notes with you on management of home life and lawn care. Being lawn-obsessed and married requires extra planning.


----------



## g-man

Time for an update:
22days since second seed down (26Aug)
18 days after first germination (31Aug)

Things have progressed quite well. We are having some very hot days and most of the reno area looks ready for a mowing. There are some areas (too wet spot) that are fairly light in coverage, but there is something in there and it will spread. I'm happy with the results after the two rain events. I have plenty of weeds, but I will pull them the day I mow.

As an experiment I took the 220E over the edge of the reno to see how the young grass handle it. It looks fine, so next time I mow the yard, I will give it a mow at 1in or higher. I also dropped some seeds in the most bare area in front of the A/C compressor. This would be an experiment with a 15Sep seed down. I dont think much will survive, but it was worth the experiment for a few seeds.

Plans: mow on Thursday, drop some AS on Friday, maybe some FAS on Sunday.


----------



## LawnNeighborSam

Looking great @g-man do you have a YouTube channel?


----------



## g-man

I dont. I barely have time to take the pictures (while forcing myself to use digiKam, and darktable and I failed to take pictures).


----------



## Mozart

Looking nice g-man. I think at some point you were considering some perennial rye - but looks like you will be able to push the KBG.



g-man said:


> Applied pgr at 0.4oz/M rate. Finally! We the reno and rains, I wasnt able to apply for a while. I can't keep up with mowing.


Did you apply the PGR to the new grass also or just your mature grass?

Does the PGR work better during the N blitz? Would I be missing out on a lot of potential progress by not using PGR in the fall, instead starting in spring? (Just N blitz now)

When are the best times to apply for maximum benefit?


----------



## g-man

Perennial ryegrass was plan C if I had another washout. PRG grows super fast and it is easy to kill next year. This will be a bewitched monostand section. They are one of the hardest parts of my lawn and they will be donor plots in the future.

I applied PGR only to the current lawn. I researched for the reno area and the study I found did not find an improvement over control. PGR has nothing to do with blitz. I start in late spring and apply it season long (every ~2weeks based on GDD). It reduces top growth (mow less often), improves color, density, and 20% less water/nitrogen needs. You need a calibrated sprayer and to buy the product ($160 for a gallon).


----------



## g-man

gm560 said:


> Looking great @g-man . Good to see that even after answering all of our questions here, you still have time for your own lawn!


I forgot to reply to this. I think it is important for share my lawn struggles and success. I think it helps validate the answers I do provide since it is based on what I do to my lawn.


----------



## Mozart

I thought the plant needs to put the energy into something else since the top growth is limited, therefore encouraging thickening of the lawn and/or root development.

Fall seems like a special time with regards to growth (due to the temperature profile). Since we are spoon feeding N, we are accelerating the growth rate, no? Wouldn't this translate to thickening the lawn at a greater rate than PGR or Nitrogen blitz would alone?

Which one alone thickens the lawn better? PGR or N blitz?


----------



## wardconnor

Mozart said:


> Which one alone thickens the lawn better? PGR or N blitz?


I would guess the N. Dump that N down.

@g-man

I am catching up on your thread now. Looks like you have really gone through the ringer with all that rain. It was hard seeing you make 2 steps forward and then 1 step back. Establishing KBG from seed can at times be challenging. I think that you are getting the upper hand and going into fall I think that you will be fine. You may need to add a little seed next spring.

All in all I would say that if you go heavy with your N and do several quick release apps before the season ends.. You will be in great shape.

So sorry to see your setbacks with that rain.

Having the soccer games get cancelled had to have been a bummer as well for your kids.


----------



## wardconnor

@Pete1313 Get the Pangea. I promise that you will not regret it.


----------



## fusebox7

@Pete1313

I had a PRG stand in my backyard before I killed everything for 100% KBG. That thread is over on ATY. I need to bring it over here for full history of my journey. Pangea was a third of that PRG blend.

I can tell you it's pretty picky about its conditions. Not enough water? Brown. Summer and too high of HOC? Stalky. Not enough sun? You know the answer. There are still some spots that didn't die off (it can be harder to kill off than people think). I can easily notice the PRG mixed in with my KBG. It's much finer bladed and grey/green vs. blue/green. It looks nice now but the rest of the year it looked horrid.

In my opinion if you can have a monostand of KBG, you have the elixir of cool season grass (and maybe ALL turf grasses)


----------



## g-man

I dont think I will do PRG into the mono like connor. The main reason is the growth habit. Currently the PRG in my lawn grows faster than the kbg and it forces me to mow more often. I'm getting 2in of PRG grow in 2-3 days.


----------



## fusebox7

g-man said:


> I dont think I will do PRG into the mono like connor. The main reason is the growth habit. Currently the PRG in my lawn grows faster than the kbg and it forces me to mow more often. I'm getting 2in of PRG grow in 2-3 days.


Very true. It's a very vertical growth.


----------



## pennstater2005

The brown stalks I had all summer have convinced me to not use it again in next years reno. Although I used it in the front.


----------



## Sinclair

pennstater2005 said:


> The brown stalks I had all summer have convinced me to not use it again in next years reno. Although I used it in the front.


The brown stalks were enough this year for me to nuke my lawn. :lol:


----------



## LawnSolo

Looking great @g-man


----------



## Pete1313

wardconnor said:


> Pete1313 Get the Pangea. I promise that you will not regret it.





fusebox7 said:


> Pete1313
> 
> I had a PRG stand in my backyard before I killed everything for 100% KBG. That thread is over on ATY. I need to bring it over here for full history of my journey. Pangea was a third of that PRG blend.
> 
> I can tell you it's pretty picky about its conditions. Not enough water? Brown. Summer and too high of HOC? Stalky. Not enough sun? You know the answer. There are still some spots that didn't die off (it can be harder to kill off than people think). I can easily notice the PRG mixed in with my KBG. It's much finer bladed and grey/green vs. blue/green. It looks nice now but the rest of the year it looked horrid.
> 
> In my opinion if you can have a monostand of KBG, you have the elixir of cool season grass (and maybe ALL turf grasses)


Hold on a second.. :lol: I said I was looking at pangea a bit. I didn't say I was about to sow it in!.. :lol:


----------



## ChadStokes

Looking great! I feel like we were both in the same boat with washouts! I'm glad I went with a monostand of Bewitched! It's going to look beautiful once it fills in!


----------



## wardconnor

Pete1313 said:


> Hold on a second.. :lol: I said I was looking at pangea a bit. I didn't say I was about to sow it in!.. :lol:


Do it.. You are really good at renos... What is the worst that could happen? Another reno? :lol:


----------



## g-man

We continue with the crazy weather of 90F sunny days. It is surviving, but not growing how I would prefer. It is looking thin.

Today I dialed back the irrigation to get the ground more firm/dry for mowing. I first took a 5 gallon bucket and hand pulled weeds. There was a ton of Poa annua! I knew this could happen with the use of bag top soil. They were easy to spot since they had seedheads. I will continue to pull them.

I then gave it a mow. I remembered to turn off the groomer, but I forgot to raise the hoc. It is around 1.1in. I think it will be ok. It is supposed to be stormy tomorrow and then nice weather. There are areas that look too thin. I will post pictures tomorrow.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> I knew this could happen with the use of bag top soil.


That's been a concern for me and is the reason why I haven't used bagged topsoil. 
However, using bagged topsoil seems like a common practice, so I have been slowly warming up to the idea -- that is, until I read about your annua.

Is there any way to know about potential weed seeds in these bags of topsoil when we buy them?


----------



## TravisH06

Looking good. Thanks for all your input on the forum.


----------



## g-man

These are from today, 3 weeks since germination. Mowed at ~1.1in. AS applications started.


----------



## g-man

Weekend update:

This weekend I started working on the last irrigation zone. This is the front lawn section. It got a bunch of stripes from the 811 call. I encountered some large concrete rocks.










I shared in the past my approach to doing the trenches and going under the sidewalk. I stopped to take some pictures. I use a 1 1/4in PVC pipe with a 45 degree cut at the front. I then drill 3 thru holes on the other end to insert a screwdriver and turn the pipe ("drill"). Once it doesnt want to go in, I then pull it out, remove all the material inside and insert again. I then run the polypipe thru the pvc.










I got the pipe thru and all connections to the other side. This will water the 4ft strip using MP strips on 30PSI bodies (14ft spacing). I'll continue as time/weather allows it. If not I will finish in the spring. I took a picture of the soil profile at 1in HOC and I had roots at 8in deep.










Reno area:
It is filling in and looking pretty good. There are some thin areas, but it is ok. I dont like the yellow color to it. The color did not improve with the AS I applied. I researched FAS on a young lawn and could not find anything. My soil pH is 8.1 and I had chlorosis in the past. Therefore I took a calculated risk and tonight I applied 1oz of FEature(10% EDDHA iron) with 1oz of AS in 1 gallon of water over the 1ksqft reno area. I will wash it off in the am. I forgot to take before pictures.


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## GrassFarmer

G-man i was wonder what your soil tests show your sulfer is at being that you mostly spread ammonium sulfate


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## LawnNeighborSam

Sweet trenches man


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## iowa jim

Bet that only took about 10 minutes to do that job. ha. ha. Glade to see its filling in for you nice.
Grass farmer: I won't speak for g-man but i use ammonium sulphate because it will help lower the P.h. in your soil, my P.H. is 7.2. Its not a over night cure but will help in the long run.


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## g-man

@GrassFarmer Here are my soil test over time. G-man Soil Test


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## g-man

Lets start with the *good*: the Reno did not turned black. The FAS application was on the Reno area all of Sunday night. It started raining Monday am until today around 2pm. I could see an up tick in color(or it is placebo effect), but we need some sun.



Now the *bad*: at 5am we had a torrential downpour. The Reno area flooded again. It was too dark for pictures. The grass looks fine but some of the soil in the side yard did erroded some more in the section that was fairly bare. Oh well, not much I could do.



*The ugly*:
I noticed this foam in the area that is more flat and that I had applied a lot of PAM in the past. I think the rest of the PAM is now gone due to the grade. I'm not sure if this foam is from flocculation or what it is. It seems to be forming underneath this area and not from higher in the grade. I don't like seeing this and will continue to monitor it.



Lastly the pgr application of 0.4 is working super good. I might mow tomorrow because I want to, not because it is too tall. I debated whether to restart or not so late in the season, and I'm glad I did.


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## SNOWBOB11

Good to hear the late season pgr is working for you. I debated whether to keep up the pgr this fall and decided to stop using it, feed the lawn and see how it went. I regret that decision as I feel the grass grew too fast for its own good and would have benefited from pgr along with the extra nitrogen. Next year I'll continue pgr apps later into the fall and see how that works.

Your grass and reno are looking great by the way.


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## iowa jim

Could that be mycelium?


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## g-man

This weekend I mostly worked on the front lawn irrigation install. I did apply some AS to the yard. It is responding nicely.

Reno:
Day 31 - since germination
I mowed last night at 1in. This is the 3rd mowing so far. It is looking good in the back. Weed pressure is low so no tenacity for now.

The side yard is ok. Not as level as I wanted and not as full coverage. It doesn't get enough sun now in the fall. This week I will spray more FAS at a higher rate.











These are for the rest of the lawn (non reno).


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## rob13psu

g-man said:


>


 :thumbup: That's looking nice.


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## LawnNeighborSam

rob13psu said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup: That's looking nice.
Click to expand...

reel nice


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## Alex1389

Looks amazing! Just curious, are you counting your FAS applications as your fall nitrogen blitz apps as well? Or are you dropping additional nitrogen to supplement the FAS?


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## g-man

Im doing FAS is purely for iron. My pH is 8, so I want some iron in there. I'm applying AS at 0.25lbN/M weekly. I'm doing the FAS mid week to be off set from the AS.


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## Green

Are the last two pics established grass?


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## g-man

I mowed, trimmed and edged yesterday. I applied t-nex at .33oz/M to the none Reno areas. There is some dollar spot out there this am with high temp and rains. Model says 54.6%

The Reno areas got 0.25lb of N/M via AS. On Thursday I did 0.3oz/M of feature for iron. I'm happy with the improvement.

Current backyard (no reno here)


You could see the transition between current and reno




I missed a spot when I mowed near the birch tree. In February I will prune this tree. It is established now. 


The worst areas. I'm not too concerned. This will spread.




Front lawn got single/doubles. I will edit to add the image.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Looking good g-man! Seems like those spots are starting to fill in from your recent pictures.


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## g-man

I got issues. Dollar spot issues. The hot /wet weather cause some damage to the lawn with dollar spot. The model had me at 56%, but with less sunlight, the grass is staying wet longer. In hindsight I needed to apply a fungicide.

I mowed today and applied AS plus a fungicide. The model drops to 3% the rest of the week with the cold weather, but I cant take more chances plus I'm under PGR supression. It hit the backyard pretty strong and a section of the reno. It was dark when I finished, so no pictures. It is also too dark in the am by the time I leave for work.


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## alpine0000

Your back yard stripes are looking legit. I'm liking what I'm seeing!


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## g-man

Pictures from the dollar spot.

You can see the right side has a section that got hit pretty hard. The middle looks good and the back is the Reno area.



Here is the damage to the Reno area. 



And this is the good section. The either heavy areas vs. none is weird to me. I double checked to ensure it is dollar and not gls and I see the hour glass. I dropped more AS to the whole yard since it is been raining.


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## NoslracNevok

We are our own worst critic stands true. Had you not prompted me, I wouldn't have noticed the right side. Looking fantastic.


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## g-man

@NoslracNevok we are our worst critics. We see the imperfections no one else will notice.


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## g-man

Day 44 since germination.

Things are going good with the Reno. I dropped more AS and did tenacity at 4oz rate. We are going on fall break, so let's see how it looks when I return. Temps are supposed to drop to 34F.

In the front, I lowered the water meter cover. It is nice to be able to just go over it now.


I mowed yesterday and today again. HOC is 22mm. I thought I was at 1in, oops. Reno could use more iron, but I ran out of time. Maybe when I return. 



This part was always my biggest concern at the start of the Reno, but it is doing great.


This area is not doing so good. He lack of sun and some fungus damage thin this out. Next year I will plug it.


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## pennstater2005

I can't believe the hillside looks that good with the beating it took!


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## g-man

Top view. This is all I could do while on vacation. Watch the lawn remotely.


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## JDgreen18

g-man said:


> Top view. This is all I could do while on vacation. Watch the lawn remotely.


That's awesome


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## NoslracNevok

My productivity at work would take dive with that camera.


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## g-man

My productivity at work is affected with just this website. . That camera is a really nice for Reno. I just placed it in a window that faces back. I could trigger the rachio is if I noticed the soil getting dry. It is only $25(wyze WiFi camera). It is not a real security camera in my opinion.


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## Alex1389

g-man said:


> My productivity at work is affected with just this website. .


We appreciate everything you do! Awesome looking lawn!


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## g-man

It's been a while since I updated this thread. I left for vacation and the reno suffered. I had 3 problems develop.

1) fungus. The side yard reno (lack of sun and humid) showed some signs of melting out when I was leaving. I applied myclobutanil the night before, but it was not enough. I have since applied my version of Renown. This stop the spreading.

2) I applied tenacity also before vacation to take care of the few weeds. I used 1/2tsp into 1.25 gallons of water. I sprayed the reno and some border areas without any nis. The reno 4-5 days ago the reno looks fairly white. I know it will be ok, but I was not expecting this much reaction. The none reno areas I sprayed looks fine. I dont know if the dry weather concentrated the tenacity in the reno soil.

3) lastly, the weather. While out, it turned dry. Very dry. I came to water the lawn with hoses. It then turned cold, rainy and cloudy. Grow has really slow down.

One of these on it own, is a minor problem, but all combined; I dont like it. Normally I have grow until the last week of november, but this year doesnt look like normal. If I could get some more days of sun, I think I could recover.

Sorry, no pictures. It is too dark by the time I could take them or raining. I mowed while raining, since my wife was also in a business trip this week.


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## Pete1313

g-man said:


> 2) I applied tenacity also before vacation to take care of the few weeds. I used 1/2tsp into 1.25 gallons of water. I sprayed the reno and some border areas without any nis. The reno 4-5 days ago the reno looks fairly white. I know it will be ok, but I was not expecting this much reaction. The none reno areas I sprayed looks fine. I dont know if the dry weather concentrated the tenacity in the reno soil.


I have also noticed significant whitening from tenacity on young bewitched. Maybe as a cultivar it might be alittle more sensitive, but will recover fine and should still have enough time this year to do so.

2014 bewitched renovation




2017 bewitched renovation


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## g-man

Ha! I wished I had look at this before. The weeds were not worth it.


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## Pete1313

It is definately worth it(not only for the weeds you see, but also the ones you can't see yet), and I'm sure with you being located further south it will be green before winter. It is this step, along with a good pre-m game next year that will keep the renovation weed free.


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## g-man

I managed to take some pictures. First the good stuff. I mowed the tenacity light color off already. It looks exactly like pete1313 images and it also looks like dollar spot, but very uniform.



















Now the ugly side. I lost a lot to fungus. It looks like i spread it with the mower. I fear that I'm still loosing. This is the bad area since it doesn't get much sun and grow has slow down a lot. I don't know if any of the fungicides are actually being absorbed. Will plug it next year.










I forgot to take images from the rest of the yard. It is doing great.


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## alpine0000

Looking good, g-man!

I'm still debating whether or not to spray Tenacity at a low rate on my new renovation... Lots of weeds. And it would be nice as a pre-emergent too, since my lawn isn't mature enough yet for Barricade or Dimension.


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## social port

so, @g-man are you instituting a sidewalk-only if you want candy rule again this year ?


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## g-man

I'm sitting in the edge of the driveway/sidewalk. 

And with all the fungus going on, I don't want shoes on the yard.


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## g-man

The season is coming to an end. I reel mow on Friday and it is minimal what I took off. We are forecasted to have a high of 30F over the weekend, so that should put a break of grow.

This is the front yard and no Reno area. It is looking great and it is very dense. I hope the density does not lead to fungus during winter. I'm going to keep it at 1in hoc (24mm). I treated it with azoxy to prevent leaf spot.



















The backyard Reno area is looking great. I did ~1.5oz of FEature/M and it reacted nicely. It almost matches the no reno area.










The side yard reno area improved. I decided not to mow it anymore. My rational was not to spread the leaf spot and to give it more leaf surface area for the minimal sun this section gets.










Lastly this was a surprise. When I had the downpours, the seed/soil ran behind this tree/mulch area. Well, somehow it germinated. It is really short and thin, so it will be an experiment(case study) to see 1) how much it survives, and 2) how much poa a it is. It does not look like poa a, but we will see.


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## Pete1313

Looking good for the end of the season. The area by the A/C unit is making some nice progress!


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## Green

I agree with ceasing mowing that shaded area and letting it get a little bushier.

I never did my final low rate PGR app, and am not missing it, by the way.


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## SNOWBOB11

That FEature looks like good stuff. It's on my list of things to try next season as my foliar iron source.

Your grass is looking great by the way. The density is impressive.

I'm interested to see how the colour of that reno area looks compared to the rest of the grass next year.


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## g-man

The season is done for me. This is earlier than typical. I mulched mow with the rotary on Sunday for the leaves and then reel mowed. Since it was the last reel mow, I did horizontal in singles and then diagonal in single doubles.

The picture is dark since it was late (5pm).


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## Alex1389

@g-man That's some great color. If I recall correctly, you used AMS instead of urea this year for your fall nitrogen blitz. Is that right? If so, any noticeable differences between the two?


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## ErosionWizard

Just found this. Good read. I wonder about that stuff you used. I will be looking into that product soon. Sounds like it functions similarly to the stuff I'm testing. Your engineer might know more. The stuff I am using will bind to the clay at the molecular level. Basically it is going to flocculate the soil to make it have proper structure. The problem you can have is trying to take the dry matiral and making it liquid. I have been working with the 100% stuff that is dry and also a couple different blends that have 3-5% of the super polymer. I would be interested to kno what your guy says about these products and how they can work to change the way people treat their lawn and or other land.


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## ErosionWizard

@g-man 
I learn something new each day. So I guess PAM is the name people call all polymers. But they are very different and many kinds. Unfortunately people think that know all about all of them if they know about one if them. I'm just learning about one so far and I can already tell you that many of the properties it has are different than others I read about. I think the big up hill battle will be education about different products and how they are the same and or different.

Agian I hope to learn more and will continue to read how things have gone for you.


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