# Compost for leveling a lawn?



## joeker (Oct 4, 2018)

Hi all,

Just curious if compost is the better option to level lawns than compared to say, bank sand(50/50 sand; clay particles)? I'm fortunate enough to have many suppliers in the area that can deliver for a reasonable price, where the cost difference between the two is minimal.. I've seen Connor Ward's videos on sand leveling and heard things about how sand will not retain nutrients as well. Would the compost not retain a rigid structure suitable for leveling as well as the sand?

Thank you for your input!


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## walk1355 (May 31, 2018)

From the way I understand it, compost will break down and won't really level your lawn if you are looking for a perfectly level surface like the Connor's of the world have.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Personally, I only use Screened Chocolate Loam. Fine as sand, sinks in well and it's nutrient. If you have suppliers, that's the route I would take. I will let others chime in on Compost.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

As others have said, compost breaks down. Once it does, you're left with whatever the grade was to begin with. Leveling should be done with products which don't break down and disappear. Sand is ideal since it's easier to spread compared to clay or dirt. Yes, you can level with clay or dirt though. Be sure to check the sand you buy so it doesn't have larger rocks. It should be screened.

While sand doesn't retain nutrients well, the grass will grow and produce organic matter in the sand which will help hold your nutrients. Also, the grass should be close to level so you are only adding up to 0.5" of sand. Even an inch of sand won't make much difference as the roots will go right through that to the soil underneath. Look at a golf course. They are made of sand only. They have nice grass...


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

No compost. Sand does not shrink, swell, compact unpredictably, or do other things to change the level you established.

You want sand so the level you establish remains. Compost shrinks in a year.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

+1 to what others have said. Topdressing with sand has no real effect on nutrient retention since the roots are usually 2-3+ inches below the surface and the sand will be on top just smoothing things out.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Mightyquinn said:


> ...Topdressing with sand has no real effect on nutrient retention since the roots are usually 2-3+ inches below the surface...


This.


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## smusgrav (Oct 31, 2018)

What if you have very poor soil with numerous rocks underneath. Does a layer of top soil help build a layer of good soil and they say next season go for sand?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

No. Layering of "topsoil" normally means the topsoil acquires the bad properties of what is underneath. Hard to go wrong with sand.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I wonder why the general public thinks sand is bad for topdressing/leveling. Where did this idea come from?


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I wonder why the general public thinks sand is bad for topdressing/leveling. Where did this idea come from?




Via @Redtenchu


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

J_nick said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why the general public thinks sand is bad for topdressing/leveling. Where did this idea come from?
> ...


 :lol: Yeah... But, I was being honest...


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## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

I would recommend everyone take a large soil sample and look at there soil profile. This will tell you your root depth/thatch/subsoil layers. I love using sand for topdressing but I also use manure compost mixed with sand for leveling and nutrients once a year. The Alabama red clay you see is terrible, it is high in Iron Oxides. My subdivision was a cotton field for 100 years. Manure Compost does help but requires additional cleanup for reel mower use. Here is my profile.


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I wonder why the general public thinks sand is bad for topdressing/leveling. Where did this idea come from?


I've heard sand and clay turn into concrete... I don't understand why that would happen, but it makes me afraid to use any sand anywhere in my lawn. But then I question all the successful uses of sand because clay is so common everywhere.


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## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

jjepeto said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > I wonder why the general public thinks sand is bad for topdressing/leveling. Where did this idea come from?
> ...


Its fake news. Sand by itself will actually help clay soil with compaction and drainage.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I think many people assume they have clay soil without doing a soil texture analysis.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Sure, I'll take the heat again.

_Its fake news. Sand by itself will actually help clay soil with compaction and drainage._​
Unless you're going to work the sand into the top 4-8 inches of soil this too is fake news, or at least to multiple professionals (golf and sports fields) from whom I've had the pleasure to receive advice over the years. This has been from up north and in the south, bluegrass, st Augustine, and Bermuda.

Laying sand on top of a very different soil can cause drainage and nutrient issues. Think filling a drainage collector with gravel or back-filling a retaining wall with gravel but at a finer level. Water will have a tendency to run off through the sand build up over top of the soil and take nutrients with it.

Golf courses and other can apply sand because their base soil is carefully amended to a depth of 4-8 or more inches with a high sand mix to begin with. Plus on greens they typically will aerate prior to sanding to provide a place for the sand to mix with the base. Your lawn is probably not so carefully prepared.

Use a top dressing that contains soil/compost. It's more work, takes longer as you typically can't apply it as deep in each "treatment" but in the long run you've created a healthier lawn with lower requirements for water and nutrients (reduced leeching).

Sorry, I know there's a heap big lot of "use masonry sand" but from my research it's not the right thing to do. It may be quick, it may be cheaper, and it may produce relatively instant gratification, but it's not the right thing to do unless you've prepared your soil with a high percentage of sand in the first place.

I'll now go hide!

https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/images/course-care/2004%20USGA%20Recommendations%20For%20a%20Method%20of%20Putting%20Green%20Cons.pdf

http://www.tiftonsoillab.com/html/1.html


Aawickham78 said:


> jjepeto said:
> 
> 
> > Suburban Jungle Life said:
> ...


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@J_nick Not trying to spam. I enjoy a good conversation and welcome all views.

@Aawickham78 Sweet pic! Love that profile! Soil profiler? Shovel?

@Smokindog I thought golf courses removed their cores and backfilled with sand to remove OM. OM can make the ground softer and more spongy. The grass makes the OM since they don't add any. I thought they wanted a firm surface to walk and drive carts on so they try to keep the OM low. Also, with the backfilling of sand in core holes, they can get nutrients and water to flow through those new channels and allow roots to access that water and nutrients at a deeper depth. Your thoughts on this?


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Yeah, my understanding is sand is OK so long as you don't have clay soil. I think the idea of sand came about from Golf Courses. But what we need to remember is that when golf courses are graded, they are loaded with 10+ inches of clean dirt prior to laying grass down, so sand is OK on them. Roots will never reach the clay soil.

So for me personally at the home level, since I didn't grade my own yard... Sand is a big FAT no no. I could care less about it's nutritional value, it's not really about that. I already made the mistake last year, I'll take pictures or a video rather, and you will see exactly what I'm talking about. The soil probe will NOT penetrate the area that I put sand down. But my front yard was done with screened loam, and it penetrates easily.

Of course, I'm no expert, but this is just a bit of research and a bit of real world trial and error.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Smokindog I thought golf courses removed their cores and backfilled with sand to remove OM. OM can make the ground softer and more spongy. The grass makes the OM since they don't add any. I thought they wanted a firm surface to walk and drive carts on so they try to keep the OM low. Also, with the backfilling of sand in core holes, they can get nutrients and water to flow through those new channels and allow roots to access that water and nutrients at a deeper depth. Your thoughts on this?


Yes, that was the whole point of my post that putting sand on top of an "ill prepared" base is wrong. I believe I specifically pointed out the aerating.
_typically will aerate prior to sanding to provide a place for the sand to mix with the base_​
I provided two links that discuss the content of the soil and the construction of the base for golf courses. I suggest people read them. If your lawn conforms to those documents sand away


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I see you're in Houston. I get my materials from a place called "Living Earth" and they have locations in Houston. I have no affiliation with them other than they're 4-5 miles away and a friend of mine who ran a landscaping company for years used them as a prime supplier.

For leveling I buy their "Top Soil with Compost" product. It's something like $35-40 per yard picked up.
https://livingearth.net/top-soil-with-compost/

For actual fill (under grass/major build up) I buy their "Yard Scraping" which is basically a mix of everything they sell when they clean the yard to re-stock which is almost weekly in prime time. It runs something like $20-25 per yard picked up.

Up here the Top Soil is a sandy loam texture which matches well with my native soil. I've gone as much as 3/4-1" at a time but probably wouldn't do that again. I'd stick with 1/2" or less on my Bermuda.

Call them and they'll probably let you take a gallon bucket for no charge to compare with your soil. FWIW, you get a MORE than fair yard of material when you pick it up, or at least I do at my location. I use a Z71 short bed and have no problems. I can back it up to various locations in the yard with little to no signs of any compaction/ruts.


joeker said:



> Hi all,
> 
> Just curious if compost is the better option to level lawns than compared to say, bank sand(50/50 sand; clay particles)? I'm fortunate enough to have many suppliers in the area that can deliver for a reasonable price, where the cost difference between the two is minimal.. I've seen Connor Ward's videos on sand leveling and heard things about how sand will not retain nutrients as well. Would the compost not retain a rigid structure suitable for leveling as well as the sand?
> 
> Thank you for your input!


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## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

Smokindog said:


> Sure, I'll take the heat again.
> 
> _Its fake news. Sand by itself will actually help clay soil with compaction and drainage._​
> Unless you're going to work the sand into the top 4-8 inches of soil this too is fake news, or at least to multiple professionals (golf and sports fields) from whom I've had the pleasure to receive advice over the years. This has been from up north and in the south, bluegrass, st Augustine, and Bermuda.
> ...


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## joeker (Oct 4, 2018)

Smokindog said:


> I see you're in Houston. I get my materials from a place called "Living Earth" and they have locations in Houston. I have no affiliation with them other than they're 4-5 miles away and a friend of mine who ran a landscaping company for years used them as a prime supplier.
> 
> For leveling I buy their "Top Soil with Compost" product. It's something like $35-40 per yard picked up.
> https://livingearth.net/top-soil-with-compost/
> ...


@Smokindog I appreciate this. I have in fact reached out to Living Earth as there are about 3 all within a 15 minute drive from my house. Is their Top Soil with Compost full of wood bark/pieces? I'll be reel mowing and I'd prefer to not have to constantly backlap.


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## Hexadecimal 00FF00 (Sep 20, 2018)

Smokindog said:


> https://livingearth.net/
> 
> FWIW, you get a MORE than fair yard of material when you pick it up, or at least I do at my location.


They have good products.

I'm in the Dallas area as well and also buy from Living Earth. The last time I bought *1* yard it was higher than the roof and spilling over the sides all the way around of my short bed F250 which is a little over 2 yards. *This load was well over 2 yards*.


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## TheTurfTamer (Aug 8, 2018)

That stuff looks awesome ! The description list it as fine. Should be great!


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

@Suburban Jungle Life

I wasn't insinuating that you were spamming. Those two characters in the meme are the guys running ATY into the ground. They are fully against leveling with sand.


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## Kballen11 (Mar 26, 2018)

[/quote]


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

NO, it is well screened at least here. Go visit.

I just moved a few yards of scrapings this afternoon!





joeker said:


> Smokindog pst_id=125188 said:
> 
> 
> > I see you're in Houston. I get my materials from a place called "Living Earth" and they have locations in Houston. I have no affiliation with them other than they're 4-5 miles away and a friend of mine who ran a landscaping company for years used them as a prime supplier.
> ...


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## gkaneko (Dec 11, 2018)

What type of sand is good to use?


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

Austinite said:


> So for me personally at the home level, since I didn't grade my own yard... Sand is a big FAT no no. I could care less about it's nutritional value, it's not really about that. I already made the mistake last year, I'll take pictures or a video rather, and you will see exactly what I'm talking about. The soil probe will NOT penetrate the area that I put sand down. But my front yard was done with screened loam, and it penetrates easily.


I'm looking forward to seeing pictures of this. It sounds like sand is great to use if it won't come in contact or get mixed in with the clay, but a yard with clay, then inches of topsoil, then sand is fine. At least, in its simplest sense, that's what I've gathered from this discussion so far.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

@wardconnor puts sand directly over his clay with no problems at all.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

J_nick said:


> @wardconnor puts sand directly over his clay with no problems at all.


Man, if that's clay, then I have cement under my yard. lol. Seriously, I ordered the profiler probe, I can't wait to show a sample. :lol: His clay looks somewhat wet. My clay wont get wet even after 10 days of heavy rain. It just doesn't absorb at all.

Another thing to note is the soil temps, I think that impacts results as well. Its not uncommon for us to get 60+ days of triple digit temperatures. During the summer, the concrete is hot to the touch at midnight. I'm no scientist but that amount of heat will dry anything into a rock. Sand can and will eventually find its way to the root zone. Cooler temps like Connor has will likely keep the clay soft as it shows in that video, which likely makes sand not a big deal. But some climates will destroy a lawn. The way he crumbled up the clay, I could never do that with mine. I wish I had his clay.

I think this thread can go on forever because of varying experiences, but I personally doubt anyone in my neighborhood can throw sand on their lawn and not experience what I experienced.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

I've heard south central Texass has some horrible soil.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

J_nick said:


> I've heard south central Texass has some horrible soil.


It's true.


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## Hexadecimal 00FF00 (Sep 20, 2018)

Austinite said:


> The way he crumbled up the clay, I could never do that with mine. I wish I had his clay.


@Austinite @wardconnor

Same.


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

Austinite said:


> J_nick said:
> 
> 
> > @wardconnor puts sand directly over his clay with no problems at all.
> ...


I agree with with your observation of his clay is not like our clay, but at the same time, he's been using Humate for several years on his lawn and i'm wondering if that's had any effect on the texture of his clay.

I'm really torn on this subject of using sand or top soil to try and level. I feel that using anything with OM in it, top soil, compost, etc.. is just pissing into the wind and you'll be right back to where you started a year later. maybe i'm wrong.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Kicker said:


> ...I'm really torn on this subject of using sand or top soil to try and level. I feel that using anything with OM in it, top soil, compost, etc.. is just pissing into the wind and you'll be right back to where you started a year later. maybe i'm wrong.


Agree. I see amending the soil and leveling a lawn as two different end games. I think opinions vary so much on this topic because everyone has a different soil texture and everyone has a slightly different definition of what level is. I know I could not achieve the smoothness I desire or the quality of cut I expect by adding extra OM to my lawn, but everyone's situation and expectations are a little different - so to each their own. :thumbup:


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