# Seed, Plug or More Celsius?



## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm really confused and disappointed at this time of year as to what to do next with my lawn, and I was hoping to get some expert advice.

I'm still in the process of converting everything over from cool season grass to Yukon bermuda (the "hard" way). Here's a brief rundown of the current status:

I applied Dithiopyr PreEm March 15. I sprayed Celsius about 3 weeks ago with good results. It really knocked back the cool season grasses and weeds. However, I'm STILL seeing a few bare spots where the bermuda has yet to fill in (!). There aren't many weeds, but I see that the cool season crap is trying to make a comeback now.

My questions are:

1. Do I go around today with the Garden Weasel and plug and seed to help the bare spots fill in?
2. Are the bare spots a result of the Celsius, Dithiopyr or both?
3. Instead of seeding/plugging, should I apply Celsius again to really try and fry the cool season grass?
4. Is it too early after spraying Celsius to seed/plug anyway?

Here is a common area currently in my yard:



Here is the worst part of the entire yard:



Terrible huh? :/

So again, I'm hoping someone can give me some expert advice on what to do. It's obviously now June, and I am in the upper transition zone, so I basically want the Yukon to fill in as quickly as possible over the next 3 months or so.

Thanks in advanc,

-Andy


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Oh, I did forget to mention that I also applied Propiconizole fungicide at the medium rate a week ago. About a week before that, I sprayed Liquid Lawn fertilizer on the entire lawn.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Lol, sorry, one more here. I wanted to post a couple shots of places that look decent also, to prove it's not all bad...


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

How much Nitrogen are you feeding it a month? I would recommend just feeding, watering and mowing.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Well @Mightyquinn you may be onto something there. I will have to double check the exact rate I used, but it was the medium-high for Liquid Lawn:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005LXJGFQ/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

However, I've only put down any type of fertilizer on it once. I think last year's super wet and hot summer has freaked me out with applying too much Nitrogen. I had terrible fungus issues (hence the Propiconizole).

I'm about to get off here now and get to it, but after a mow, I'm leaning towards plugging/seeding/sprigging and applying a soil loosener tonight. Then tomorrow I'm gonna go ahead and put down another fertilizer app. That is if the storms don't prevent that.

Does this sound like an OK plan?


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Is the liquid Lawn the only stuff you are applying? If so, I don't think that is going to cut it. I recommend at least 1 lb of Nitrogen a month per 1K sq/ft. Depending on what kind of fertilizer it is will depend on how much you can put out at once. I know you are in a different region so you may need to start looking at the forecast and put out a preventative application of fungicides, just be sure to have 2 different kinds so the fungus doesn't become immune to it.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

@Mightyquinn, I've not heard much about fungicide immunity, so that's interesting. I do have some copper fungicide left, which did work well against the nostoc algae invading my gravel, so.. What about mixing it in with Propiconizole?

And yeah it seems then I'm way too low on Nitrogen. I'll have to look into getting some Urea I suppose.

Thanks


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

andymac7 said:


> @Mightyquinn, I've not heard much about fungicide immunity, so that's interesting. I do have some copper fungicide left, which did work well against the nostoc algae invading my gravel, so.. What about mixing it in with Propiconizole?
> 
> And yeah it seems then I'm way too low on Nitrogen. I'll have to look into getting some Urea I suppose.
> 
> Thanks


What fungus are you having an issue with in your lawn? That will let you know what kind of fungicide to use to combat them.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

ok 
Yukon doesnt like Propiconizole it stunts it pretty bad and is a mild regulator. Azoxy fungicide doesnt hurt yukon. But leave the propiconizole alone Absolutley do not apply when you put down your PGR. Doing s will set back your yard big time.
As @Mightyquinn said you are not giving it enouph Nitrogen. At least give it 1 pound of N per month. But if your trying to grow in bald spots give it more. 
I did .75 pounds every 2 weeks to help mine grow in. If you dont mind mowing alot. If you do use PGR it will still spread fast maybe faster. like the old Salt and pepper song "Push It .... Push it real Good"

Once you get a greensmower i can show you how to get rid of your common Bermuda.

For the huge bare spots plugging a few spots in the middle will help it establish quicker. Also get a screwdriver and poke a hole and put all those runners from weed eating into the hole. Attack the bald spot from multiple fronts.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Well crap @Tellycoleman, I kept wondering why my Yukon seemed to not be spreading very quickly . See that's why I like getting on here and posting because the label of course says nothing about Yukon being injured. That just figures. I could have just ran over to frickin Walmart and grabbed some Scotts Disease EX for that matter. Guhh

I think I applied the Prop about a week 1/2 ago, so how soon do you think the Yukon will rebound?

I just ordered this, and it's on the way:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IAYANK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Funny, I did in fact also plug and spread runners yesterday, exactly how you mention. Here's a spot I'm working on. We got heavy downpours yesterday which seem to really mat them down, but I suppose that's a good thing (?)



And lastly, in regards to my battle with cool season grasses, What is up with this cool forcecast??



So, 90's in May and 70's in June. Ok yeah, that makes sense. . Anyway, knowing now that my Yukon is probably stunted, and with my battle with cool season grasses still raging, I'm thinking I need to go ahead and apply Celsius now at the medium rate, ONLY to the areas where the fescue/blue/rye etc are trying to make a comeback. No?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

So just a heads up. If you can cancel that order of 46-0-0 i would.
It absolutely will work however you paid Wayyyyy to much for a 20 pound bag. Do you have a local store?
first of all 46-0-0 is a very high amount of N. So how are you going to apply a half pound of nitrogen over 1000 sq feet??
Thats like 2 handfuls of fertilizer. you wont be able to evenly spread out 1 pound of nitrogen or aprox 2 -3 handfuls over that area unless you plan on doing a liquid application. Which i wouldn't. So you have the potential of over application and burning your grass.
You are trying to grow in your lawn so root development is also important. Just get some 20-20-20 or 10-10-10 or another combo at you local box store (NOT MILORGANITE) That way you can easily and evenly spread it out over 1000 square feet.
So if you have 10-?-? then it takes 10 pounds of fert per 1000 square ft to yield 1 pound of Nitrogen. So that will be 5 pounds for a half a pund of nitrogen. This can easily be put in your spreader. 
I see you have a big yard. Is all of it yukon? If so then you may want to use a higher number like 20-?-? so you wont have to buy so many bags. 46-0-0 is just pretty potent stuff gives you no P or K and will burn if not applied correctly. Im sorry not sure of your experience level not trying to talk you out of it but you may want another choice.

Now as far as Fungicides
Why are you putting it down? Do you see disease? @andymac7
Once you get down some fertilizer your grass should be fine
Below Is a better choice than propiconazole for Yukon


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ok... frustration is setting in a little bit now.

You all informed me that my N was too low with the Liquid Lawn at 13-1-2. So I ordered a pure urea granular at 46-0-0 to supplement. It has great reviews on Amazon with good before/after photos. How was I supposed to know it would be too high of an amount? Then why do they sell it?

I have approx 16,000 sq ft of yard to cover. If I use the low rate on my spreader then half the bag won't even cover that, correct?


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## Tmank87 (Feb 13, 2019)

Melt it down and spray it


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> For the huge bare spots plugging a few spots in the middle will help it establish quicker. Also get a screwdriver and poke a hole and put all those runners from weed eating into the hole. Attack the bald spot from multiple fronts.


Do you mean one runner stuck vertically in a hole or a bunch of them? I've never seen this but think I need to be doing this. My sprigging techniques so far have all failed.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Tmank87 said:


> Melt it down and spray it


Too late. The return shipping label is printing as I type.

So confused.


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## Tmank87 (Feb 13, 2019)

Most people who use Urea will melt it in water and spray in a backpack for foliar application.


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## ScottM29 (Mar 8, 2018)

Don't underestimate the power of the Garden Weasel!!! My back yard is naturally converting over to bermuda and I had several "dead" matted down spots after two treatments of Image in April and May. Water + Fert. + the Garden Weasel helping my yard turn the corner.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

ScottM29 said:


> Don't underestimate the power of the Garden Weasel!!! My back yard is naturally converting over to bermuda and I had several "dead" matted down spots after two treatments of Image in April and May. Water + Fert. + the Garden Weasel helping my yard turn the corner.


I have used the garden weasel some @ScottM29, and I agree, it does seem to help.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Basically @andymac7 Everyone has there opinion and there is more than one way to skin a cat.

It all depends on your experience level. And your equipment.
Yes 46-0-0 will work and im sure it has good reviews but that bag on Amazon cost wayyyyy to much. You can get a 50 pound bag for that cost. It is good fert but in my opinion doesnt provide enough even coverage( when applying it dry) because you cant put alot of it down.

Now others have said Melt it down and spray it. Yes you can do that. However it is not practical or wise for your situation in which you want to grow in Bermuda and push growth. When we say melt it down that means put it in water and dissolve it then spray it. However you cannot use it full strength or again it will burn your lawn probably even faster. 
I am assuming since this is a little confusing that you are not a lawn expert like alot of us are so I am trying to tell you the easiest way to do it with limited experience. 
If you do not own or have never calibrated a sprayer. Bought Teejet tips or incorporated a boom into your sprayer then you dont need to even think about melting the fertilizer down in water. So if you dissolve and spray you need to apply no more than 0.10 pounds of N per 1000 square feet and preferably 1.5-2 gallons of water per 1000. And it is only giving you 0.10 pounds of N per App. You need more. If you have no idea how to make those calculations with 46-0-0 then Ball up all the information about spraying it - put it in a shoe box- and throw it in the ocean. You did good return it.

If you have 19-19-19 available just get that. one 50 pound bag will cover 10,000 square feet if you want to put down a pound of N. If you want to apply 0.5 pounds of N then that one bag will cover 20,000 square feet. Iff you want to do what i did then 
37 pounds of that 19-19-19 will put .75 pounds of N on 10,000 square feet.
So if my math is correct and you have 16,000 square feet of turf. Then 59.2 pounds (round it to 60) of fertilizer put over your entire yard will give you 0.75lb of N per 1000 square feet. If you dont want to be bothered by measuring or dont have a scale then if you put one bag over the entire 16,000 square feet you wil have about 0.63 pounds of N per 1000 square feet wich is probably your easiest solution.
Do that every 2 weeks. and after a month you can reevaluate your Fertilizer choices.

Hope i didnt make your brain explode. Keep asking questions And dont get discouraged.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Thanks for all of the info @Tellycoleman, I do I appreciate it. I was just having a little bit of a "moment" I guess yesterday and felt overwhelmed.

So, I decided to just go to Wally World yesterday and bought this for fert:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Expert-Gardener-Lawn-Fertilizer-Plus-2-Iron-14-Pounds-Covers-up-to-5-000-Square-Feet/703225522

NOTE: Mine is the 40lb bag, which is supposed to cover 15k sq ft.

And since they didn't have Scott's Disease EX, I went with this for fungicide:

https://www.amazon.com/Scotts-Fungus-Control-000-sq-Pounds/dp/B000F6XHIG/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=scott%27s+fungicide&qid=1559910500&s=gateway&sr=8-5#customerReviews

Now I know that you guys have asked what type of fungus I'm battling in my lawn. Well, the answer is I don't know 100% what it is. From the looks of it last year, it was brown patch. I know, it could be something totally different this year, but I want to put it down as a preventative more than anything. Last year it ran rampant because of our wet/hot summer. Of course, this year we're getting pounded now again with heavy rain. I literally just walked out onto the front porch and saw a bunch of little mushrooms that had popped up. I know this doesn't necessarily mean the grass will be infected with fungus soon, but last year those little guys seemed to be a bad omen of what was to come.

The only thing I did to my lawn last night was to mix a 2 gal sprayer with some Celsius and MSO and go around hunting for weeds and spots where cool season grass was trying to come back a little. Obviously with just that small amount I wasn't looking to get much coverage, but I know we are having oddly cool/damp weather for a week or so, so I didn't want patches of furiously growing rye or red fescue coming back in.


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Another quick question also.. Can I mix the fert and fungicide and apply together this weekend (if the dang rain stops), or should I do two separate apps?


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ok, so I've stated that I wasn't sure about what type of fungus (if any) is attacking my Yukon. Well here are a couple shots I just now took to maybe help out





Interestingly, this damage mostly seems to be affecting runners, as I can grab and pull them up very easily.

Any ideas?

I sort of want to start a new thread devoted to just this, but if someone can help me out here I'm of course good with that.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Wait I thought you were getting the 19-19-19
@andymac7 can you take a picture of what you actually purchased ?
Bags often say that it covers so much square feet but at what rate. How many pounds of nitrogen?

The picture on that bag link says its a 30-0-4. But the picture on the bag also says feeds up to 3 months. Which means you purchased Slow release fertilizer instead of fertilizer that will give you an immediate effect. SO depending on the weather it will take 3 months for your grass to be able to use that nitrogen. It also doesnt have any P which is good for root growth and grow in. That fertilizer would be a good choice for established lawns. You bought the fert it wont hurt to use it but you might not see the growth you want with slow release.

Im going to step back and let others answer the question on disease. 
Good Luck


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Good grief. Why is this lawn stuff so difficult? It's just grass, right?

Anyway, although I do have the return label printed to send back the urea, heck, I may just keep it now and mix a small amount of it then with what I just bought. Anything wrong with that, @Tellycoleman?


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

Ok, so my 20lb bag of overly priced urea granular came in finally .

I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to just dissolve a little bit of it in with the Liquid Lawn and apply it that way, or, would it be best to leave it granular and apply it with the 30-0-4, as I asked?

Here is the label for Liquid Lawn:


And you're right @Tellycoleman, it is 30-0-4. My bad. Here is what I bought:


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