# Best Shade Seed



## Donnie moss (Apr 2, 2021)

I was wondering what the best shade seed is?

I live in Northern NJ. I have a yard that has many trees around (mostly from the neighbors so I can not remove them) They are very tall and wide and the leaves are large (Norwegian maples). I get about 3 hours of Sun in most of the yard but in some spots up to 5 hours. I am re-doing the entire yard with new soil and grading due to low spots and drainage issues so starting with 100% dirt. I see there are several companies that make dense shade seed as well as sun and shade seed so I guess I have 2 questions.

Which is the best seed to buy by manufacturer and what seed should I use (Dense Shade or Sun and Shade)?

Thanks,

I can go to the local store or order online it does not matter to me where I get it, all I want is what will work best for my situation.

Also A friend of mine said he would just get the cheapest contractor grade seed from Home Depot and put that down, it seems to grow anywhere and under any condition - Thoughts on this suggestion??

Local store has:

Scotts - Dense Shade mix / Sun and Shade Mix
Pennington - Dense Shade / Rebel Shady Lawn
Vigoro - Dense Shade 
JB - Dense Shade
Greenview - Dense Shade / Sun and Shade


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

I cant tell you definitively because those are all mixes and what is in the bag changes all the time, but I would probably steer clear of all of those tbh. I have picked up a lot of "shade" or "sun and shade" mixes and been shocked to see a prevalence of perennial ryegrass, which does not do well in shade, in a great many of them. Some also contain weed grasses like poa triv and annual ryegrass (seen this trash in vigoro a lot and would likely be a component of the contractor mix your friend is recomending) I think the consumer bags are meant for giving people instant gratification, not long term viability.

If it were me, I would try some shade tolerant TTTF with some Kentucky Bluegrass mixed in. I helped a neighbor out doing a reno of his shady, mossy front yard last fall. I bought this mix for him and its looking great this year so far:

Rowdy TTTF (this is the best shade TTTF out there)
Valkyrie TTTF
Titanium 2LS TTTF
Blue Note KBG. (5-10% by weight.)

Call these guys here to order seed and tell them you want the most shade tolerant TTTF mix. KBG is optional but could add some recover-ability in the sunnier spots. The TTTF should to just fine with 3-5 hours. It probably wont cost much more than the store bought stuff, even with shipping and in terms of quality, there is no comparison. 
http://thehogancompany.us/


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## Donnie moss (Apr 2, 2021)

Thanks, that's perfect just what I am looking for. I have moss as well, the reason for the new topsoil and grading. I just finished measuring the work area. It is 4,250 Sq Ft. I will now order the grass seed and get a delivery date and call for a delivery of 10 yards of "lawn soil" (that's what the local garden center calls it, screened top soil I guess). Tree guys are coming Friday to remove lower limbs on a few trees and take 1 down to get more sun. The moss in the yard is horrible.


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

I found only one grass to grow well in my shady areas: Poa supina (and of course P. annua and trivialis). But there is less sun than in your yard, and it's expensive. Here now only available in blends containing only 5% of Poa supina. But after 2 years Supina is the dominant grass.

Downsides: Expensive, strong only after 2 years, light green, needs a lot of water
Upsides: By far the best grass for shades, very dominant, can suppress even Annua and Tivialis, and has almost the same color(if there's trouble with them)


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

@Donnie moss this thread may be of interest to you.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1194


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

I cringe when I see the amount of ryegrass in some of these seed mixes. I can only guess it's cheap and because it's the quickest to germinate, gives the end user instant gratification. Ryegrass is not shade tolerant, nor is it heat or drought tolerant.

Tall fescue may do OK in mixed sun/shade areas, but for dense shade, the fine fescues are your best bet. Fine fescues are creeping red, Chewings, hard and sheep fescue. Fine fescue mixes generally have the first three of these. Creeping red is rhizomatous so it spreads to fill bare spots, Chewings is the most shade tolerant and hard is the most heat and drought tolerant.

Outsidepride.com sells a good fine fescue mix here which is 40% red, 40% Chewings and 20% hard:

https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/grass-seed/fescue-grass-seed/legacy-fine-fescue-grass-seed.html

Or if you want to pick and choose, here are all of their fescue seeds and mixes:

https://www.outsidepride.com/seed/grass-seed/fescue-grass-seed/

I wouldn't bother with bluegrass. It will perish in shade.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I have Mazama KBG planted 1 year ago. most of the yard gets <6 hrs of sun during the summer. It establishes very slowly but has filled in nicely over the past year. The only areas that won't establish are completely shaded and I mixed some fine fescue in that mixes ok with the little KBG that made it. 
Proof:


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Deadlawn said:


> I cringe when I see the amount of ryegrass in some of these seed mixes. I can only guess it's cheap and because it's the quickest to germinate, gives the end user instant gratification. Ryegrass is not shade tolerant, nor is it heat or drought tolerant.
> 
> Tall fescue may do OK in mixed sun/shade areas, but for dense shade, the fine fescues are your best bet. Fine fescues are creeping red, Chewings, hard and sheep fescue. Fine fescue mixes generally have the first three of these. Creeping red is rhizomatous so it spreads to fill bare spots, Chewings is the most shade tolerant and hard is the most heat and drought tolerant.
> 
> ...


I know this is conventional wisdom, but i think the times are changing due to some great breeding. Take a look at that thread I posted, my favorite line in reference to TTTF testing @vnephologist did, "I'd also say that I've had much better success growing in the very dense shade portions than I thought as well. *I think there's probably very little reason to ever grow fine fescues given the performance I'm seeing.*"

Like @OnyxsLawn, I have had luck growing even KBG in a yard with 4 mature shade trees in it. I think it is all about choosing the right cultivars bred for what you need.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

gm560 said:


> @vnephologist did, "I'd also say that I've had much better success growing in the very dense shade portions than I thought as well. *I think there's probably very little reason to ever grow fine fescues given the performance I'm seeing.*"
> 
> Like @OnyxsLawn, I have had luck growing even KBG in a yard with 4 mature shade trees in it. I think it is all about choosing the right cultivars bred for what you need.


@Kaba there is hope!


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

gm560 said:


> I know this is conventional wisdom, but i think the times are changing due to some great breeding. Take a look at that thread I posted, my favorite line in reference to TTTF testing @vnephologist did, "I'd also say that I've had much better success growing in the very dense shade portions than I thought as well. *I think there's probably very little reason to ever grow fine fescues given the performance I'm seeing.*"
> 
> Like @OnyxsLawn, I have had luck growing even KBG in a yard with 4 mature shade trees in it. I think it is all about choosing the right cultivars bred for what you need.


Interesting. That is a beautiful old willow oak! I would love to have a tree like that. Mature oaks in general give a more dappled shade. The Norway maples the OP mentioned give a more dense dark shade not to mention their roots can have an allelopathic effect, so might be more challenging.

I agree that TTTF is probably worth trying, but I would still mix it in with some fine fescues to avoid total failure and then have to start over, but that's just me.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

OnyxsLawn said:


> I have Mazama KBG planted 1 year ago. most of the yard gets <6 hrs of sun during the summer. It establishes very slowly but has filled in nicely over the past year. The only areas that won't establish are completely shaded and I mixed some fine fescue in that mixes ok with the little KBG that made it.
> Proof:


That's great - I will have to look at Mazama again this summer in advance of my fall overseed.


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## HoneDiggs (Apr 8, 2020)

I did a reno/overseed last fall with a Lesco Sun and Shade Mix (34% Turf-Type Perennial Ryegrass, 33% Fine Fescues, 33% shamrock KBG) and had some great results after just a few weeks. As a few more weeks went by my shaded areas struggled and died out before winter.

I have quite a few large maples and oaks on my property which I love but also hate at the same time because my lawn needs more sun. I have trimmed every branch in the bottom 25' of every tree which has helped but not much.

I plan to reseed these shady areas with a Lesco Shade Mix (30% Chewings Fescue, 30% Creeping Red Fescue, 15% Hard Fescue, 15% Turf-type perennial Ryegrass-1 variety, 10% Kentucky Bluegrass) this spring and hope for some better results.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Deadlawn said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> > I know this is conventional wisdom, but i think the times are changing due to some great breeding. Take a look at that thread I posted, my favorite line in reference to TTTF testing @vnephologist did, "I'd also say that I've had much better success growing in the very dense shade portions than I thought as well. *I think there's probably very little reason to ever grow fine fescues given the performance I'm seeing.*"
> ...


Yes. This was my plan when I started KBG in my lawn. If it thinned to much, I would overseed with TTTF. If that still didnt perform, I would add FF. Same with the neighbor I helped. He has one really shady spot directly under a cherry tree. The branches are very low so the shade is thick. If the TTTF fades, we will introduce FF into that spot. My methodology is to start with what I considered the most desirable, and only introduce others if absolutely needed. It hasnt been required yet. Fingers crossed.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Here is my bewtiched, mazama, everglade mix from last the dog days of summer last year. It was starting to run out of gass and was a bit heat stressed at that time, but you can see its pretty full even though it gets shade/filtered sun it gets most of the day.



And this is from June. This is the only real direct sun it gets, which is the afternoon setting sun.



Honestly a bigger problem than the shade is the tree drinking all the friggin' water in the summer.


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## BobRoss (Jul 3, 2019)

OnyxsLawn said:


> I have Mazama KBG planted 1 year ago. most of the yard gets <6 hrs of sun during the summer. It establishes very slowly but has filled in nicely over the past year. The only areas that won't establish are completely shaded and I mixed some fine fescue in that mixes ok with the little KBG that made it.
> Proof:


Thats awesoeme! I am going to plant a Mazama Bewitched KBG blend in a shady area around my house and this makes me feel a lot better!


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