# Monument Herbicide



## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

Anyone have a link that still sells the smaller packets? I have some Poa I'd like to kill but can't seem to find a site that sells the 0.5 gram packs.


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## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

I don't think it's labeled but... I've kill poa with Celsius at the max rate, only one application so it maybe effective at lower rates.

I know that's not your question, just putting it out there.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

FWIW, the Certainty label says it will take care of it too.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I think the key is going to be the maturity of the plant and how many there are to control. If only a few, pull them.

According to the Certainty label, best results are obtained when poa annua weeds are in the early stages of growth and prior to tillering.

Quote from UGA Cooperative Extension Bulliten 1463 - Annual Bluegrass Control Programs from Georgia Lawns.
https://secure.caes.uga.edu/extension/publications/files/pdf/B%201463_2.PDF

"Turf managers using Celsius (thiencarbazone + iodosulfuron + dicamba), metsulfuron (Manor, MSM, others), and sulfosulfuron (Certainty) may control seedling annual bluegrass, but applications do not provide acceptable control of mature plants."

I used a mixture of prodiamine at 0.75lb/acre, one 5 gram packet of monument (putting me at the max rate equiv of 15g per acre since my yard is 1/3rd of an acre), and simazine at the rate of 0.75 fl oz per 1,000 sqft.

No poa annua at all in my yard.

If you haven't bought certainty or monument, I'd suggest considering katana. I think it was cheaper in price per application than monument and will get tillered poa, unlike certainty.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

There are some 5 gram packets of Monument on ebay for $71 shipped.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Has anyone try to use Tenacity on non-dormant bermuda? It is not like it is going to kill it. We all know it doesnt die.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

cnet24 said:


> Anyone have a link that still sells the smaller packets? I have some Poa I'd like to kill but can't seem to find a site that sells the 0.5 gram packs.


Are you set on monument?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

g-man said:


> Has anyone try to use Tenacity on non-dormant bermuda? It is not like it is going to kill it. We all know it doesnt die.


I haven't tried that before. Was your question checking the viability of blanket spraying Bermuda with tenacity to control poa annua specifically, using a blanket app to control winter annuals in general, or something else entirely?


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I ran the numbers on Certainty, Monument, and Katana a few months ago. If my math is correct Katana is by far the cheapest per 1000ft2 at $1.44 and can be reduced even more when tank mixed with Urea (46-0-0). Certainty came out at $2.61 per 1000ft2 but as Movingshurb pointed out above is not effective on mature plants. Monument is the most expensive at $5.79 per 1000ft2.

So the question is when will Katana replace Certainty in the majestical "Bermuda Triangle"? Lol @dfw_pilot


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I used https://www.domyown.com for my price comparison


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

high leverage said:


> So the question is when will Katana replace Certainty in the majestical "Bermuda Triangle"? Lol


Glad to see I'm not the only one to make that suggestion. If you're making a Bermuda/zoysia only Bible, then monument or Katana and call it a day.

However, katana isn't listed for St. Augustinegrass and monument isn't listed for centipede.

Revolver would be another contender also for poa control but none of the aforementioned items are as compatable as Certainity.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I wish I had your herbicide budget. :lol:


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Ware said:


> I wish I had your herbicide budget. :lol:


I think we all wish we had your equipment budget. :lol:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

high leverage said:


> Ware said:
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> > I wish I had your herbicide budget. :lol:
> ...


I second high leverage.

I think my winter pre-em of monument, simazine, and prodiamine came out to about $65 for the application and the spring app was $10 worth of prodiamine and simazine.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

high leverage said:


> Ware said:
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> 
> > I wish I had your herbicide budget. :lol:
> ...


Touché. :lol:

I'm sure those are all great products or they wouldn't make them, and maybe I'm just living right, but weed control is not something I've struggled with.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Ware said:


> high leverage said:
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I agree. There is nothing better than dense turf to keep the weeds out. And by the looks of your lawn you check all the boxes. Keep up the excellent work. Nothing but respect. I know a a lot of golf courses that don't hold a candle to your lawn. :thumbup:

@dfw_pilot No disrespect on the Bermuda Triangle. It is a sound cost effective approach. In fact I believe Certainty is still the cheapest to control nut sedge. But maybe Katana is more versatile.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> g-man said:
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> > Has anyone try to use Tenacity on non-dormant bermuda? It is not like it is going to kill it. We all know it doesnt die.
> ...


I'm a cool season guy, so just wondering. Tenacity is so inexpensive. We use tenacity for poa annua control in the spring. 2 oz/acre rate in blanket (make poa shine), repeated by 2-3 spot weekly treatments. It might work on Bermuda too.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

I too, have very few weeds to deal with. There are lots of good herbicide options and "there are many roads to Dublin."


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

g-man said:


> Movingshrub said:
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Am I missing something. Tenacity is labeled for pre-emergent POA suppression not Post emergent. There are far cheaper option on the warm season side for pre-M POA than Tenacity. Simazine or Atriazine.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, we use it off label as a post emergent. Our POA annual germinates in the falls, it goes dormant in the winter and it is full tiller in the spring. PreM in the fall works, but sometimes a few still manage to grow.

I'm just curious if anyone has tried it on non dormant Bermuda.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

g-man said:


> Yes, we use it off label as a post emergent. Our POA annual germinates in the falls, it goes dormant in the winter and it is full tiller in the spring. PreM in the fall works, but sometimes a few still manage to grow.
> 
> I'm just curious if anyone has tried it on non dormant Bermuda.


Very similar to my experiences with POA. It really only appears in the spring. Italian rye grass shows it face far sooner than POA around here. I know people that use Tenacity exclusively on goose grass in non dormant Bermuda. They also use Tenacity+ Sencor to knock out Zoysia that has invaded Bermuda.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

high leverage said:


> Certainty came out at $2.61 per 1000ft2


My maths came out much different: I spend $1.23 per thousand with Certainty. It's $91 for 1.25oz with 28.3 grams per oz and .48 grams per app. I haven't used Sedgehammer, but it may be cheaper still?

Either way, use what works for you.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I'll answer the easy question first Sedgehammer doesn't control POA. I'll check my math tomorrow. But I believe there are some discrepancies in the direction on Certainty as far as small scoops vs large scoops. But for now I'll give you the benefit of doubt. However to quote @Movingshrub from earlier "Turf managers using Celsius (thiencarbazone + iodosulfuron + dicamba), metsulfuron (Manor, MSM, others), and sulfosulfuron (Certainty) may control seedling annual bluegrass, but applications do not provide acceptable control of mature plants."


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

My only reference to Sedgehammer was because I was talking about the Certainty side of the Triangle. Even the high rate is ~ $2, or a lifetime supply for homeowners.

The truth is, better cultural practices take care of most weeds, and that is proven all over this forum. Like Redtenchu, I've killed a bit of Poa with Celsius as well.

You don't like the Triangle idea and have made that more than evident. Will you or can you move on? I'm not married to it, but I haven't seen many practical applications on TLF where it's an absolute must to use something else, or need to spend $1,000 to fix.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

dfw_pilot said:


> high leverage said:
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> 
> > Certainty came out at $2.61 per 1000ft2
> ...


According to the label of Certainty "For selective control of annual bluegrass (Poa annua), apply this product at 1.25 to 2.0 ounces per acre. Use the higher rate of this product for control in areas of established, dense weed infestation."

1.25 oz per acre = .8 grams per 1000ft2

35.4 grams in a bottle of Certainty

35.4/.8= 44.25 applications per 1000ft2

$91.45/44.25= $2.06 per application

I'm not sure where you are finding .48 grams controls POA


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

dfw_pilot said:


> Will you or can you move on?


I can tell that "Triangle" is a touchy subject around here. I won't speak of it again.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I think the triangle + glyphosate is a really good starting point. I'm sure we can all agree that it won't capture/address every weed out there.

With that being said, back to the OP, I had a hard time finding the smaller packets 0.5 gram packets of Monument when I was trying to control sedges, so I went with Certainty. This year I didn't think I was going to be able to use prodiamine on my freshly sprigged turf so I needed another option. I was planning to do a broadcast app of simazine and monument for post-emergent control. I ended up doing a split purchase of the 5g by 5 Monument packet box with someone to take some of the sting out of the cost. With that all being said, I think we have detailed a lot of options for poa annua post-emergent control in the thread. @cnet24, let us know if we can assist you further.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

high leverage said:


> I won't speak of it again.


Maybe just try it before you let a label determine it isn't a good solution for 99.9% of members. What I get touchy about is the way your present yourself.



high leverage said:


> I'm not sure where you are finding .48 grams controls POA


Which is why I said:



dfw_pilot said:


> Even the high rate is ~ $2, or a lifetime supply for homeowners.


Which brings me back to labels, rates and theory vs reality. I and others have had good success against many weeds, even at lower rates. I had some Poa, which Celsius and the sun took care of. I still recommend that members should start out with what works 99% of the time, and move up from there. With a real troubling weed in Bermuda? I'd even suggest the Triangle's Glyphosate and then lots of Nitrogen over yet another expensive herbicide.

The caveat remains that everyone is free to use whatever they want. I'll say it [possibly] a third time: There are many roads to Dublin.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

dfw_pilot said:


> high leverage said:
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> > I won't speak of it again.
> ...


Using anything less than the labeled rate helps breed herbicide resistance. It's also against regulations in Oklahoma to use less than the labeled rate. Many other states have similar laws. I follow manufactures directions to the T otherwise I risk loosing my Turf and Ornamental license.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Again, I think they all probably have their place, and any difference in application cost (per thousand) among any of the chemicals that have been mentioned in this thread is probably negligible for an average size lawn.

I think the biggest barrier for many people is the up front cost. I know several of us here have spent the last few years (both here and at ATY) working to convince folks who are new to DIY lawn care that despite the high up front cost, many of these products can actually be a value proposition. I'm not sure how many times I've worked the math in a post or how many photos of my lawn are floating around out there showing my results, but at the end of the day the one thing I've noticed is that ~$100 for a bottle of anything is a steep price of admission for many people (even for the ones who can afford it) when it comes to acquiring an herbicide. Now Pelosi would call that crumbs, but I digress. :lol:

I'll throw out this example from another industry... research shows that nationally, for every $1,000 increase in the price of a median-priced new home, about 153,000 households are priced out of the market. I think you could generically find the same to be true about the price of pretty much anything at any relative price point. That said, please be patient when not everyone here is shouting from the mountain tops that anyone who has weeds should run out and spend $200 on a bottle of something they may or may not need.

I think we're all chasing the same thing here, and this site exists because we recognize that there is more than one way to do things. I expect everyone to share what works for best for them, with respectful candor, so that others can extract from that what might work for them in their unique situations. :thumbup:


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

And to attempt to get this thread back on track so Redtenchu doesn't lock it... :lol:



Ware said:


> There are some 5 gram packets of Monument on ebay for $71 shipped.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@cnet24 Seed ranch has 0.5g monument packets for $20


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

@Movingshrub do you have a link for that? I searched their website and just see the normal 5x5 packs.

http://www.seedranch.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=monument


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Well, here is the link, cause I didn't want you to think I was pulling your leg. However, it now shows as out of stock.
https://www.seedranch.com/Monument-75WG-Herbicide-0-5-gram-packet-p/monument-75wg-.5.htm

Turning to google, I also found these three places, although I haven't used any of them personally. 
http://www.irrigationoutlet.com/chemicals-and-fertilizers/chemicals-and-fertilizers-herbicides/chemicals-and-fertilizers-herbicides-selective/monument-75wg-herbicide-0-5-gram-packet

http://buyalltraps.com/product/monument-75wg-herbicide-trifloxysulfuron-sodium-75-0-5-gram-pack-wsp/

http://healthylawnllc.com/monument-75-wg-herbicide.html

You're going to spray with a hand can?


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

@Redtenchu & @Ware any issue with spraying celsius/certainty on dormant bermuda? This is the biggest issue I'm currently facing- the two herbicides that I currently have (Q4 and WeedBGon) state to avoid spraying on dormant bermuda/spring green up.

I took a quick look at both labels, but don't believe I saw anything related to the timing of application.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

cnet24 said:


> @Redtenchu & @Ware any issue with spraying celsius/certainty on dormant bermuda? This is the biggest issue I'm currently facing- the two herbicides that I currently have (Q4 and WeedBGon) state to avoid spraying on dormant bermuda/spring green up.
> 
> I took a quick look at both labels, but don't believe I saw anything related to the timing of application.


I've sprayed Prodiamine and Celsius together on my bermuda as it was coming out of dormancy with no ill effect. I think as long as you don't get too heavy handed you should be fine though and it's still early in the season so any harm that might happen should be fixed well before your at 100% green up.


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## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

+1 @Mightyquinn

@cnet24 I've spot sprayed and blanket sprayed Celsius on dormant Bermuda before without I'll effects.

I've never had a sedge issue, so I don't own certainty.


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## Steverino (Dec 14, 2017)

Selective control of annual bluegrass (poa annua) I'll take out whatever else survives my scalp with Celsius.....


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Steverino said:


> Selective control of annual bluegrass (poa annua) I'll take out whatever else survives my scalp with Celsius.....


Did you just hand pick them all?


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Steverino said:


> Selective control of annual bluegrass (poa annua) I'll take out whatever else survives my scalp with Celsius.....


Good luck. Not trying to rain on the parade. But Celsius will fall way short of what you're looking to accomplish. You could pick up Manor (MSM) for $28 from Site One and have far better results. I use and reserve Celsius strictly for weeds controlled over 85+ degrees. Their are far cheaper and better options for what your looking to do. There is no herbicide that is an end all be all. Use what the condition and price point dictates. I'm not sure how many times I've said this. I suspect The Lawn Forum is sponsored by Bayer or a few members get a kick back but this fallacy has to stop some where.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

high leverage said:


> ...I suspect The Lawn Forum is sponsored by Bayer or a few members get a kick back but this fallacy has to stop some where.


Dude, you have not a clue.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)




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## drlushin (May 24, 2017)

If I sprayed a mix of Celsius & Certainty on my poa anna 3 weeks ago & haven't seen it turn yellow or show any sign of dying, how long should i wait b4 spraying again?

I know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing & expecting different results, but temps were much lower & sprayed grass while it was still wet from rain.

Monument smoked a huge stand of poa anna last year.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

That probably explains why it hasn't worked yet. Between the colder temps and the leaf being wet, I'm not sure much of it made it to the plant. Did you use any surfactant?


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## drlushin (May 24, 2017)

Yeah I used a NIS but got to thinking, it being wet probably didn't help it grab hold. Never been an issue before, but with 2 girls (3 yrs & 16 months) it was strike with any open window.

I just did my first stage of scalping yesterday (burned 100 mower bags of grass that is still smoldering in the rain). Maybe with me cutting it shorter & waiting for it to dry will help my cause. Just didn't want to be impatient... Patience is not my strongest character trait.


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


>


Haha, nice.

FWIW, my wife fired me and called a company to come spray the Poa and the other weeds in our yard. The prodiamine application didn't seem to take as our yard as exploded with weeds the past week. I'm assuming this was due to the heavy rains we've had here in Atlanta for what seems like the entire month of February.

The company came and sprayed revolver, three way, and another app of prodiamine. The Poa has taken over and is out of my control. Good thing this stuff dies when it warms up.

Hurt my pride a bit, but as they say: Happy wife, happy life!


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

cnet24 said:


> Movingshrub said:
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It's true - and you've managed to trick her into making herself happy by taking some work off your plate


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

cnet24 said:


> Movingshrub said:
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How much are you paying them to spray?
A local place offered seven apps for a total cost of $600.

My cost to spray year round was less than $100 for herbicides and another $50 for fertilizer.

Well played on off loading that responsibility. Are you spraying PGR, cause I don't know if commercial companies will ever offer that option.

Also, totally expected this thread to get locked; definitely surprised it's still going.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

^^^ This isn't ATY.


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## cnet24 (Jul 14, 2017)

@Movingshrub it's going to be around $60 per application. I hired them on a "per app" basis, meaning I can cancel at any time (I did this on purpose, hedging my bets haha). I don't think I will use them all year, but a $100 revolver application was worth it instead of dropping $250.

I will be spraying PGR as the year goes along-got to put my new chapin/wand combo to work on something!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@cnet24 I am sure revolver will do the job but for poa, I am using monument or katana for my yard. With that being said, monument, katana, and revolver are the top three for poa post em for Bermuda or zoysia lawns.


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