# Greetings from Ontario, Canada - suggestions welcome



## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

Hi,

I live in Southwestern Ontario, Canada. Our lawn (back lawn especially) is getting over run with creeping charlie, broadleaf plantains, clovers, dandelions, etc. Front lawn isn't too bad, although it's thin, and seems to have more broad leaf grass (crabgrass?) My total lawn size is approximately 7,000 s.f.

About 10 days ago I applied Ortho Weed B Gon CCO (which has been in my garden shed for about 5 years - probably brought in from the USA) and it seems to be affecting everything except the creeping charlie. I've been considering an application of Ortho Killex, perhaps this weekend. If I recall correctly, re-seeding is not recommended within 4 weeks of application.

Here's a rundown of what I would like to do:
1. combat the weeds as much as I can with herbicide
2. overseed or re-seed the lawn - perhaps with high traffic grass seed.
3. aerate - our lawn soil is almost clay like
4. detatch - recommended by a lawn expert in the past.

What items can I expect to reasonably accomplish between now and when the snow flies, and in what order? What herbicides should I consider using? At this point I'm sorry I didn't do some of this back in the spring, while it was still wet and cool.

Thanks,

Jan


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I just searched online for the label of killex and it says you can safely seed 1-2 weeks after application. You'll probably want to do 2 apps to get better control of your weeds situation. That's going to push you to the first or second week of September before you'd be able to seed. Still doable. Your going to want to get something like perennial rye grass to seed with because of it's fast germination and quick establishment. You can aerate before seeding if you feel your soil is tough and needs better air flow. It's hard to say whether you need to dethatch or not without seeing your lawn but if your lawn is thin it's probably not necessary.

Depending on how thin and what grass type you have you can also try to just feed the lawn with nitrogen this fall and see if you can thicken it up that way.

Post some pics if you can and it will make it easier to determine what grass type you have and what's the best route to take to improve the lawn.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Welcome to TLF Jan. As Snowbob mentions above, can you post come pics? It will help us identify the issues you are facing and provide you with some options.


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

Good morning everyone,
Here are some pictures of what I'm dealing with. The first four pictures are of the front lawn. The grass along the sidewalk seems to be doing best, thanks to regular "fertilizing" by our toy spaniel dog. There is little presence of creeping charlie here, unlike the back lawn. Is the wide blade grass crabgrass or something else?

The last four pictures are of the back lawn. About a week ago, I treated the back lawn with Ortho CCO and so far it has had little effect on the creeping charlie. But unlike the front lawn, the back lawn has its own problems. In part, thanks to the neighbor behind us with a minimalist attitude. It's actually pathetic. Sometimes the grass will grow a foot tall and my wife and I overhear them argue about whose turn it is to cut the grass. My wife and I have agreed that while our back lawn will never be perfect, we have to do something about it before it becomes totally overwhelmed with weeds.

Our side lawn, which I forgot to take pictures of, is basically a compromise between our front and back lawns. I will post pictures later today.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I will try to attack this in order:

First, I don't see any crab grass in the photos. The wide bladed grass you are referring too could be a clumping fescue.

Second, creeping charlie can be controlled with the Ortho Killex, available at www.lawnproducts.ca and I believe Amazon. Keep in mind, the active ingredients are banned in Ontario. That doesn't mean you can't get it shipped to you. Just want you to have full knowledge of the product. The active ingredients are 2,4D, MCPP and Dicamba. You can actually mix this with the CCO (Triclopyr) and give yourself a 4 way herbicide - this will help control 90% of the weeds we encounter. It will likely take 2-3 applications spaced 7-10 days apart.

Your front lawn doesn't look too bad. Definitely some weeds to take care of, but the biggest culprit I see is lack of nitrogen (N) and water. You may have also had some type of fungus during the summer, but no need to worry about that now since our days of really hot and humid are pretty much over. I would get some nitrogen down and make sure you are irrigating approx. 1" per week - either 1" all at once or twice a week at 0.5".

The backyard definitely has a weed issue and there are quite a few thin areas.

My thoughts:

Front Yard: Control the weeds, get nitrogen down and water. I would also look into getting a pre-emergent (prodiamine or dimension) to help stop the weed seeds from germinating next year. You can put an app down now to control Poa Annua this fall and then another application in April/May (depending on weather) to help control the weeds you currently have. I would read up on this forum about pre-emergents. There is a ton of info to digest.

Backyard: Control the weeds first. Then you could over seed using either perennial ryegrass or fescue - both of these cultivars offer fast germination periods. We are right in the middle of the ideal seeding window and you would want to get the seed down within the next 2-3 weeks or so. The idea is to give the grass as much time to establish before average first frost (sometime in October for us, again, on average).

The other option is to totally nuke the backyard, killing all weeds and existing grass and starting over. This however, take a lot of time and planning. So I would opt for an overseed this Fall.

Going forward, regular feeding, watering and cutting will help you establish a thick, dense lawn that will limit the ability for weeds to germinate and grow. Adding a pre-emergent helps in this regard too.

Regardless of how much time and money you want to invest, there is a ton of information on here that can help you decide which direction you want to go with your lawn. I would start with the Cool Season Guide and Fall N Blitz.

Most of all, enjoy the process - because that's exactly what this is. A never ending, enjoyable process!


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

Hi Harts,

Thanks very much for the advice. What sort of nitrogen lawn product would you recommend? I was looking at the Lawn Response 911 product. Would it also make sense for me to aerate the front lawn prior to applying nitrogen and overseeding? There's a possibility of showers/thunderstorms this weekend, so aerating and overseeding would be better use of my time, rather than spraying weeds with the risk that the herbicide gets washed away.

The back lawn, as you say, is another story.

Your advice is quite helpful in developing a plan of action.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I used the 911 product last Spring and it worked well. That was also before I found this forum. It isn't a terrible product; it is readily available and easy to use. So yes, this would be an option. I would also try to source Urea (45% nitrogen) and use that this Fall, as it is a fast acting N source. You could shoot for 0.5lbs of nitrogen per ksqft (1lb of Urea will net you 0.46lbs of N). If you chose to do the Fall N blitz, you could do bi-weekly apps.

As for aeration, there are mixed feelings about this. The naysayers are afraid of stirring up unwanted weed seeds and then you have to deal with the cores. Others swear by it. Take a screw driver and try to stick it in the ground in various spots. Does it go in 6-8" with ease? Or does it go 2-3" and then you need a sledge hammer to get it to go deeper!!!????? If it's the latter, you would benefit from aerating. I aerated recently (take a look at my journal to see the process). I also swept up the cores and bagged them to get them off the lawn.


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

Just a quick update here.

Last Friday evening I detatched my front lawn with a dethatching rake, then watered it after sundown. Saturday morning I applied the Scotts 911 and watered the lawn regularly, and I have to say it's really looking much better.

The weeds in my back lawn are dying off now, thanks to a couple applications of Ortho CCO and Ortho Killex. Today I mowed the lawn much shorter than I normally do because in the next week I would like to level out the holes and low spots. I'm actually thinking about renting an overseeding machine from a local rental outfit. Should I put some organic fertilizer down a couple of days before I overseed, or should I wait until a week after?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I would skip the fert for the overseed. You don't want to push growth of your existing grass before the new seedlings have a chance to establish.

With that said, we still have time left for seeding but the window is closing. I would make sure you get the seed down sooner than later.


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

I stopped at the local equipment rental today to inquire about renting the walkbehind overseeder. The grass seed that they recommend I use is this. It's made by Graham Turf and apparently is the same turf that is on the soccer field at a nearby school.



Is a starter fertilizer recommended in combination with seeding? I notice that most commercial starter fertilizers are 25-25-4 (high nitrogen) and my local feed store recommended 6-24-24. What gives?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Skip the fert when you seed. The Nitrogen will push top growth of your existing grass. A couple weeks after germination (not seed Down) you can apply your starter fert.

That seed looks fine. My reservation would be that it doesn't tell you if there are any weed seeds in that bag. But you are also tight on time and likely don't have the opportunity to get seed that has zero weed seeds from a reputable dealer.


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

Thank you Hartz!

You mentioned to skip the fertilizer for overseeding in a previous response. I'm sorry to have missed that, thanks to my ADHD. 

I'm booking the overseeder from the equipment rental today for this coming Tuesday- unfortunately the earliest opportunity I have. Keeping my fingers crossed we don't have an early killing frost. Interesting enough, according to them, most people don't rent the overseeder until about mid September...


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## MMoore (Aug 8, 2018)

the walk behind seeder... is that a slit seeder or a broadcast seeder?

if its a normal broadcast spreader I would buy one from lowes or HD for like $30 to get going and rent an aerator. a slit seeder will do a good job for you though if that's what your renting.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

No worries! There's a lot of info to digest. It's easy to miss something.

I rented an aerator a few weeks ago from HD and the guy looked at me funny. The machine hadn't been rented since March and was dusty. He asked if I was sure I wanted to aerate "so late" in the season.


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## MMoore (Aug 8, 2018)

Harts said:


> No worries! There's a lot of info to digest. It's easy to miss something.
> 
> I rented an aerator a few weeks ago from HD and the guy looked at me funny. The machine hadn't been rented since March and was dusty. He asked if I was sure I wanted to aerate "so late" in the season.


people don't know what they don't know. and those who do _know_, rarely know less than they think they do.


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## janvds (Aug 15, 2019)

The overseeder I'm renting is a walk behind overseeder with seed box attachment from Classen:
https://www.classenturfcare.com/product/turf-overseeder-walk-behind/

I have a Scotts mini broadcast spreader as well, but I figured renting the overseeder will be easier on my back, rather than trying to dethatch and rake etc by hand. I figured it also makes sense to use it to dethatch the rest of my lawn at the same time.


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