# Soggy Soil



## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

As I am making notes and trying to get my plan for 2019 on paper, I am trying to think of concerns I have had with my lawn over the years. One thing that I have always wondered about is the fact that my lawn always seems to be soggy ( not during hot/dry summer months). I do have some low spots that I would expect to accumulate water and take longer to drain, however, even in some relatively flat spots I encounter this problem. Could this be a characteristic of my soil structure? Should I look to add amendments to build the soil content. I recently had a soil test done. Would anything in the results possibly indicate the need to add or adjust anything?

Any comments, experiences or suggestions are certainly welcome. Or if more specific information is need, I would be happy to provide.

Thanks 
Dave


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

I'm no expert but in my experience the 2 main reasons soil would be soggy is hard clay that doesn't allow for proper draining, and poor grading. Although having a nice flat lawn is awesome, but if the soil doesn't absorb well, it is problematic because it can't move anywhere.

Recently I had really soggy soil on the side of my house. And the grading had a slope so it was moving, but at the end of the slope the water just stopped and puddled up. Ended up installing a french drain about 60 feet long with 5 catch basins. problem solved.

I know that year after year my soil will continue to improve as I treat it regularly. Flat and Clay however, that's a tough combo.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Has anyone has success with air8 with this problem in the low areas?


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

I have a low after. I used Air8 in it this year and i would not say it go worse. But did not really get better. The spot is partial sun and never seems to dry a day or two after heavy rain.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Austinite said:


> I'm no expert but in my experience the 2 main reasons soil would be soggy is hard clay that doesn't allow for proper draining, and poor grading. Although having a nice flat lawn is awesome, but if the soil doesn't absorb well, it is problematic because it can't move anywhere.
> 
> Recently I had really soggy soil on the side of my house. And the grading had a slope so it was moving, but at the end of the slope the water just stopped and puddled up. Ended up installing a french drain about 60 feet long with 5 catch basins. problem solved.
> 
> I know that year after year my soil will continue to improve as I treat it regularly. Flat and Clay however, that's a tough combo.


Can you tell us more about the French drain?

Does it drain anywhere other than into the basins?

How deep is it?

What kind of pipe(?) did you use?

Was it a hard install?

Edit:
What I'm currently doing to try to combat my poor draining area, is drilling 3" holes 2 feet deep and filling them with a sand/compost mix.

I've calculated that after approximately 1,500 holes, the problem should be 20% better :lol:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Would it be better to fill with only sand? Compost holds water and will also decompose eventually allowing the hole to partially fill up with dirt reducing the draining effect. Could you post your soil test?


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

craigdt said:


> Austinite said:
> 
> 
> > I'm no expert but in my experience the 2 main reasons soil would be soggy is hard clay that doesn't allow for proper draining, and poor grading. Although having a nice flat lawn is awesome, but if the soil doesn't absorb well, it is problematic because it can't move anywhere.
> ...


Yes, so did an 18 inch trench along my fence-line on the side of the house where water was collecting. It starts in my back yard, goes past the fence gate into my front yard and all the way out to the street drain. I drilled through the concrete sidewalk and into the drain. I got lucky because the street drain was in my path, so I didn't have to make any turns.

I used NDS prefab 8 inch pipe (this comes wrapped in pebble stone already). I did a catch basin about every 12 feet. So 5 total drains. Probably excessive but I figure might as well since I'm in there. The catchers were 6 inch each with a square-top debris guard that sits right at soil level, so the grass blades when cut are about an inch or so above it.

As far as how hard it was, I don't think I can say it was hard as in complex, but it was very labor intensive. Kicked my butt for 2 days and that's with another guy helping me. Everything was purchased from home depot, even the trencher rental. I saved over a grand doing it myself, so that to me was well worth it.

I will get some pictures up, most of the install pictures are on my old phone so not sure if I can recover those, but I can certainly post some finished product pics.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Would it be better to fill with only sand? Compost holds water and will also decompose eventually allowing the hole to partially fill up with dirt reducing the draining effect. Could you post your soil test?


Might be better to fill only with sand... it basically just felt "wrong" to dump only sand :mrgreen:

Im hoping the organic matter decomposes and turns into beautiful, well balanced soil, I guess.

Soil test from a very similar area:









Composition:


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Austinite said:


> craigdt said:
> 
> 
> > Austinite said:
> ...


Thanks for the info! any further pics would be great :thumbup:

A few more follow up questions:
Could something like this be done if a person didn't have a street drain, or somewhere to route the water?
Is is basically just to drain the water from the top soil, and the pipe holds the water to slowly be disbursed back into the soil?

If I had a section in the middle of the yard, can I just bury a few lengths of this stuff with a couple basins on both ends, and call 'er good? Or does it have to be routed/discharged somewhere?

Would this work with clay soil? Or will it plug up?


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

@craigdt , So the pipes do 2 things, they let water out into the soil, but also allow excess water to travel down the pipe and out to the street drain. You will certainly get some releif just by having the drain pipes in the ground, but if your soil is super compacted clay, and you get a lot of rain, it can only hold so much. It will eventually overflow and we're back to square one. But if the problem is small and you don't get too much puddling, it could be fine without letting the water out as it will go into the soil, albeit slowly, but it will go eventually.

Also think of places where water can go other than the street. You might have a gutter that can tie into or bring water towards its shoot.

Honestly without letting the water out, I'm not sure how well yours would do. Really depends on how bad the drainage issue is. I can say with certainty, even without discharging the water, it will be far better than having nothing. And yes, it works with any kind of soil. I have clay. But I've been working on softening it over time and I know in a year or so my soil will be draining far better as I continue to treat the soil.

I'm working on the yard this Sunday and will get you some pictures. I'll try and dig up my old phone pics so you can see some of the process as well.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@craigdt With a cec of 12 and 3% organic matter, that isn't clay soil. Clay starts in the 20's without any organic matter. Maybe it's just compacted or you have clay subsoil slowing drainage. Good looking soil!

If you install a drain, you would need to dump it somewhere. Is there a place off your property which is lower? Could you collect it and dump it that direction so it flows off your property? You could dump the drainage into an underground dry well like this. Not exactly fun to dig that big hole but it'll take a bunch of water from the surface. Also, you would need to have it in a lower part of the property so if it overflows, the water can still go downhill somewhere else. Some people install multiple dry wells.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

GreenHorn said:


> I recently had a soil test done.


Could you post it?


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## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> GreenHorn said:
> 
> 
> > I recently had a soil test done.
> ...


Here is my soil test from late Oct


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@GreenHorn did you apply the lime per their recommendations?


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## stotea (Jul 31, 2017)

Check your thatch thickness, too. I had an area that was soggy for days after even the slightest rainfall. After I dethatched, it now only happens after heavy rains. So, while not 100% due to thatch, that certainly was a major contributing factor. In my case, a combination of grading and soil structure were the other factors.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @craigdt With a cec of 12 and 3% organic matter, that isn't clay soil. Clay starts in the 20's without any organic matter.


Do you have a source for this proposition? I'm asking because typical around me is CEC of roughly 10 and it's clay. Granted a lot of sand but definitely clay as a very high percentage and it behaves as clay in terms of the issue of frequently becomming an impermeable (and rock-like) substance, with surface cracking when dry, etc. I think there must be different types of clay with different CEC.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/agriculture/soils/structure/cec
http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet22.pdf
http://www.soilquality.org.au/factsheets/cation-exchange-capacity

,


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > @craigdt With a cec of 12 and 3% organic matter, that isn't clay soil. Clay starts in the 20's without any organic matter.
> ...


http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet22.pdf

Sandy soils low in organic matter have a very
low CEC (less than 3 cmolc/kg) while heavier
clay soils or soils high in organic matter
generally have a much higher CEC (greater
than 20 cmolc/kg).​
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-238.html
CEC in
Soil groups Examples meg/100g
-----------------------------------------------
Light colored sands Plainfield 3-5
Bloomfield

Dark colored sands Maumee 10-20
Gilford

Light colored loams and Clermont-Miami 10-20
silt loams Miami

Dark colored loams and Sidell 15-25
silt loams Gennesee

Dark colored silty clay Pewamo 30-40
loams and silty clays Hoytville

Organic soils Carlisle muck 50-100​
http://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=C1040&title=Cation%20Exchange%20Capacity%20and%20Base%20Saturation
Soil Texture 
Sand	1-5
Fine Sandy Loam	5-10
Loam	5-15
Clay Loam	15-30
Clay	>30​
https://www.agvise.com/educational-articles/estimating-soil-texture-by-cec/
Estimated Texture	CEC
Sands (Coarse)	0 to 10
Coarse Loams (Medium)	11 to 20
Fine Loams (Medium)	20 to 30
Clays/Clay Loams (Fine)	31+
Peat/Muck	if OM >20%​
I'm not saying you don't have any clay at all in your soil. A mix is good to have and that includes clay. Most, probably have a loam or silt loam soil which includes clay. What I don't agree with is the common saying, "I have clay soil" and unless it has a high clay content, I don't agree with that statement. Some clay is a good thing but it isn't a majority of the soil. Sure, there are exceptions such as high amounts of kaolinite which occurs in some parts of GA and PA. Maybe the clay structure got damaged somehow. Though, I feel these are the exceptions, not the norm. Maybe you are an exception. I would be curious, if you feel inclined, to do a soil structure test. A simple jar test would be interesting.


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## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> @GreenHorn did you apply the lime per their recommendations?


I have not applied any lime yet. I will be following their recommendations and do a Spring app and then again in the Fall.


stotea said:


> Check your thatch thickness, too. I had an area that was soggy for days after even the slightest rainfall.


I will check that also-thx

I think I may have a combination of several issues including grading. It just seems that even in a couple flat areas, drainage seems to be a problem. I do remember back when I moved into the house a neighbor mentioned in a general conversation that the original developer of the neighborhood took a lot of the topsoil off all the lots before they built the homes. Now that was over 30 years ago so I don't know if there is any truth to that or not but I guess it could come into play if the soil or subsoil has been sacrificed. My first attempt is to try and build up "healthy" soil and then move forward from there unless someone suggest other options. All recommendations welcome :thumbup:

Thanks


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You should apply the lime now if the ground is not frozen.

Lime takes some time to break down and moves thru the soil. By doing it now, you gain the time from the winter months.


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## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> You should apply the lime now if the ground is not frozen.
> 
> Lime takes some time to break down and moves thru the soil. By doing it now, you gain the time from the winter months.


@g-man 
Unfortunately I missed that opportunity. Ground is frozen here in Ct. I'll probably have no choice but to wait till Spring.


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## Chuck S (Nov 5, 2018)

I'm having contractor french drains installed to rid my yards from excess water. We've had much more rain in Richmond than normal this year but the drains will help even on normal years. We slope down from the street to a creek behind the house but a lot of the water just stays in the yard. House gutters in this region don't drain to the storm sewers, just run outon the lawn. My back yard was unusable this year with all the water.

Work is scheduled to start in the next week or two so the utility folks came out to mark all the underground utilities so we don't hit them. Different color codes of spray painted lines all over my lawn. Highly decorative colors.

The lawn. of course, is covered with a foot of snow and I doubt the marks will survive the weekend. 

-- Chuck


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Suburban Jungle Life said:
> ...


Kaolinite clay is also common enough here. It used to be mined here in Delaware and in the delmarva region and beyond. Most of the soil around me is sandy clay. The Columbia aquifer stays fresh water from clay deposited a zillion years ago keeping the ocean out. My fresh water well is drilled to about 50' below sea level yet only a couple hundred feet from tidal waters.

You can dig a hole one day down into the clay under the topsoil and a year later you need a pick or a jackhammer to get back into it. It's finer and slippier and stickier than silt; it holds water like a porcelain bowl; it's clay. I don't see CEC as a touchstone for soil type. The specific minerals in a clay sample drive CEC. So clay or high percentage of clay soil usually has a higher CEC but not always and so not definitive for what it is. Kaolinite is an example.

I'd agree that a say so that something is clay doesn't make it clay but I'd also agree that a particular CEC doesn't make it not clay (if that makes sense).


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Kaolinite clay is also common enough here. It used to be mined here in Delaware and in the delmarva region and beyond. Most of the soil around me is sandy clay. The Columbia aquifer stays fresh water from clay deposited a zillion years ago keeping the ocean out. My fresh water well is drilled to about 50' below sea level yet only a couple hundred feet from tidal waters.
> 
> You can dig a hole one day down into the clay under the topsoil and a year later you need a pick or a jackhammer to get back into it. It's finer and slippier and stickier than silt; it holds water like a porcelain bowl; it's clay. I don't see CEC as a touchstone for soil type. The specific minerals in a clay sample drive CEC. So clay or high percentage of clay soil usually has a higher CEC but not always and so not definitive for what it is. Kaolinite is an example.
> 
> I'd agree that a say so that something is clay doesn't make it clay but I'd also agree that a particular CEC doesn't make it not clay (if that makes sense).


 :thumbup:


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Drawing conclusion between CEC and soil texture is flawed at best. About the only reliable conclusion that can be made is that if a soil has a high CEC and little to no OM content, it is very likely the soil has a significant clay content. As some clays "weather" (physically and chemically), it looses CEC negative surface charge. It's still clay with a size of <2 micrometres, but it doesn't possess the CEC of un-weathered clay.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

Chuck S said:


> I'm having contractor french drains installed to rid my yards from excess water. We've had much more rain in Richmond than normal this year but the drains will help even on normal years. We slope down from the street to a creek behind the house but a lot of the water just stays in the yard. House gutters in this region don't drain to the storm sewers, just run outon the lawn. My back yard was unusable this year with all the water.
> 
> Work is scheduled to start in the next week or two so the utility folks came out to mark all the underground utilities so we don't hit them. Different color codes of spray painted lines all over my lawn. Highly decorative colors.
> 
> ...


Chuck, you described exactly my issues in Midlothian. 
I have french drain around base of house (not gutters) but I feel like this year's rain just overwhelmed the lawn as the French drain routed that excessive water somewhere - to my lawn it feels like.

So @ the bottom of the crown that the house is on, it seems those sides are soften & some patchiness has occurred on the lawn in those wet areas.

Would like to hear Your experience with your contractor after the installation!


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## Chuck S (Nov 5, 2018)

I'm in Chesterfield off Winterpock road. 10 minute drive to my daughter's house in Woodlake..

Snow is gone so there was a flurry of detectors, colored flags, and paint on the lawn yesterday (17 Dec). Amazing number of utilities buried in my front lawn plus my irrigation system (which finally got blown out yesterday as well). Contractor may start tomorrow since no rain is forecast but it's still soggy. We have a Corps of Engineers protected creek behind the house with a 10' easement on both sides of the creek. Hoping the water can be drained back there and let my lawn dry out.

New to us house and new to me grass type. Took me all summer and into the fall to realize tall fescue doesn't spread and cover bare areas like my former blue grass. Gonna take me another year it seems. Sod is looking more appealing every month...

My only success is my leaves are all mulched this year. Had to hire a guy to take them away last year (our first fall).

-- Chuck


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@Chuck S Yay for mulching! I'm always torn on mulching or using for compost pile...


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## Grassmasterwilson (Jun 11, 2018)

I've got a property that stays wet like this long after it rains. It has a 2" layer of decent soil and then goes to grey or orange clay. They have French drains and 2 pumps moving roof water but water just sits on top and forms mud.

I'm gonna try air8 every 6 weeks or so, hit hard with humics, and try to open up the soil.


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