# Fall 2017 - transition zone KBG - year two overseed



## vnephologist

Up until this week I had been trying to decide whether to overseed or go for another complete renovation after renovating with several KBG cultivars last year. I had really great success until July-Aug when my earlier poor practices and an ill-timed herbicide application killed several areas. Up to that point, I was really happy with the look, except for the color.

May 17


Aug 18


As I started researching genetic color, I stumbled across j4c11's work with Turf Blue HGT & PGR for better color in the transition zone and he led me to TLF (thanks!). I was already receiving a very cold shoulder over at the other forum where, for some reason unexplained to me, I was no longer allowed to post pics (good riddance). Working through some obvious irrigation issues on another thread, g-man & Ridgerunner have convinced me against a complete glyph reno. I started to mow lower several weeks ago and I've managed to get my HOC down to 2" (loving it and don't think I'll go back higher). I broke out my thatch rake and started cleaning up the dead/dormant material and the shed from the healthier areas. I could do this by hand because I only have ~2150 sqft.



The stolons and tiny tillers I found really pushed me over the top on deciding not to wipe it all. I still need some better color, so I selected Mazama to overseed since it has done incredibly well in recent NTEP trials in NC and TN and has much better color than Barvette HGT (the aggressive and most transition zone hardy cultivar in the Turf Blue mix). I started with applications of PGR at 0.5oz/k and Serenade 4oz/k on 8/18.



Followed by some filling in of dead areas and leveling (had some obvious settling from my DIY irrigation install) using a combo of Earthgro and Scott's Lawn topsoils that I found for 50% off. I'm mentioning this because I hadn't really planned to get the Earthgro, but when I arrived at the home center an employee was cleaning it up and offered me the discount. When I took a look, it surprised me that it actually looked to be good quality and very well screened. As I was putting it down, I realized that it had a fair amount of sand which seemed to really help with the leveling and compaction.

 

Since I'm lowering the HOC to 1.0" for my overseed, I'm thinking about grabbing a few more bags of the Earthgro to spread evenly over the entire area for leveling, seed establishment, and to start encouraging lower growth. With three applications of PGR and the forecast starting to look prime this week, I'm going to target Thursday 8/24 for seed down.



I'm planning to seed 4lbs of Mazama over the entire area (~2150 sqft) and add in some additional Turf Blue blend in the larger dead and leveled areas. I can water 4-5x a day with my Rachio, so I'm not going to do peat moss this time. I did come across some of the cellulose pellets, so I'm going to add those to the bare areas to avoid washout if we get any storms. I had good success with Scott's Starter w/mesotrione last year, but since I don't want to encourage excessive top growth of the existing turf, I going to go with an "organic" 10-24-10 starter blend that should release more slowly and spray Tenacity. Since I'll be creating a perfect recipe for fungus with my morning shade, I also plan to drop Pillar G (pyraclostrobin & triticonazole) and spray Serenade at seed down and then follow up with subsequent treatment as soon as I can walk on it. I have a few test pots that I'm testing PGR on and depending on the results, may continue PGR apps T+30 days. The good news is that Mazama germinated very well in my test pots at only 6 days. I have very little weed pressure due to the heat and my earlier herbicide sprays, but will follow up with another Tenacity treatment if needed. Depending on how things are looking, I'm planning to spoon feed Urea weekly as the temps drop. I know a *** overseed is tough, but I won't be too worried it if isn't successful. Really just need to fill in the dead areas. If I can't control the fungus then I'll cut the water back and abandon the new seed.

What's wrong, or what am I missing?


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## Fronta1

I wish you luck and hope you prove it can be done. 
I would keep a very close eye on your soil moisture by touch. 4-5x a day might be too much in shade. On windier, drier days maybe not. Moisture control is going to be key. Will be following. Fingers crossed.


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## vnephologist

Fronta1 said:


> I wish you luck and hope you prove it can be done.
> I would keep a very close eye on your soil moisture by touch. 4-5x a day might be too much in shade. On windier, drier days maybe not. Moisture control is going to be key. Will be following. Fingers crossed.


Thanks man! I work from home, so should be able to monitor closely. Luckily I have experience with this from last year. When I'm away, I actually wrote a simple web applet to connect my Meteobridge and the Rachio API to temporarily stop the manual waterings when my weather station detects rainfall. Given my general affinity for tech toys, I'm also considering adding a Davis soil and moisture station to my setup. Wonder if I could get it in time to install before seed down!


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## fusebox7

Be extremely patient and diligent with the watering. In my pots experiment and in the NTEP results, Mazama is a very slow starter and had the widest range of germination that I noticed along with my Award and Bewitched. I'm sure your aggressive type(s) took off a lot faster. Hopefully the PGR keeps the existing turf at bay and the additional cultivars in the "turf blue blend" don't choke out the Mazama. Good luck!


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## vnephologist

fusebox7 said:


> Be extremely patient and diligent with the watering. In my pots experiment and in the NTEP results, Mazama is a very slow starter and had the widest range of germination that I noticed along with my Award and Bewitched. I'm sure your aggressive type(s) took off a lot faster. Hopefully the PGR keeps the existing turf at bay and the additional cultivars in the "turf blue blend" don't choke out the Mazama. Good luck!


Thanks @fusebox7. I have a few pot experiments that are now at day 23 for comparison too. Mazama definitely jumped out of the ground faster, but seems to be pouting a bit more than than the HGT blend. I also planted a pot of a SSS custom blend (Award, Midnight, NuGlade, Keeneland) I used in a shady area last year and its about inline with the Mazama at this point as well. I'll post some pics once there are any measurable differences.

Oh, I also pulled the trigger on the Davis Soil Moisture/Temperature Station. It should be here on Wednesday thanks to the fine folks at RainmainWeather!


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## j4c11

Nicely done! Looking forward to the Mazama/HGT color comparison.

Did you order more HGT seed recently? If so, what are the cultivars and percentages for this year? They seem to vary.


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## vnephologist

j4c11 said:


> Nicely done! Looking forward to the Mazama/HGT color comparison.
> 
> Did you order more HGT seed recently? If so, what are the cultivars and percentages for this year? They seem to vary.


The bag I received from Todd Valley recently (dated 8/16) has 34% Barvette, 25% Barrister, 20% Barimpala, 20% Barrari and is Yellow Jacket coated. I ordered from Roozen's last year and ended up with a 3/15 lot that had 34% Barvette, 24% Barduke, 19% Barrari, and 19% Everglade that wasn't coated. I thought the Everglade was interesting since it isn't their seed. Not sure if there were seed yield issues or what. Either way, the cultivars look better this year. Barrister seems to have better color and Barimpala seems to be a fast starter. I'm only going to put it down in the bare and leveled areas though.


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## j4c11

vnephologist said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nicely done! Looking forward to the Mazama/HGT color comparison.
> 
> Did you order more HGT seed recently? If so, what are the cultivars and percentages for this year? They seem to vary.
> 
> 
> 
> The bag I received from Todd Valley recently (dated 8/16) has 34% Barvette, 25% Barrister, 20% Barimpala, 20% Barrari and is Yellow Jacket coated. I ordered from Roozen's last year and ended up with a 3/15 lot that had 34% Barvette, 24% Barduke, 19% Barrari, and 19% Everglade that wasn't coated. I thought the Everglade was interesting since it isn't their seed. Not sure if there were seed yield issues or what. Either way, the cultivars look better this year. Barrister seems to have better color and Barimpala seems to be a fast starter. I'm only going to put it down in the bare and leveled areas though.
Click to expand...

Perfect, just what I needed to know, thank you. I have a small area in my back yard to finish up this fall and I need to match it to what's already there, so I'm putting down HGT/Falcon IV. The 2015 batch had more Barvette(34%) than the 2016 batch(25%), so I was wondering what was in it this year.


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## vnephologist

Official seed down on 8/26/17 after a few days of prep pulling out shed & dead and leveling. I mowed down to 1.5" HOC on 8/24/17 to reveal more areas that needed leveling and then ended up putting down 18 more 40lb bags of Earthgro topsoil.



The next morning revealed those areas to be a little dryer and sandier than expected, so back to the home store like a good city slicker for 20 bags of Scott's "Premium" topsoil with peat and other organic material. I couldn't help myself and also picked up a 3 cu/ft bail of peat moss that ended up going on the main leveled areas and the sunnier strip near the road.

After raking in and leveling all of my topsoil, I lowered to 1" HOC for the final cut and to vacuum up the remaining dead material, bark chips, and other larger material in the topsoil mix. I was actually pretty amazed at the grass left at 1". I feel like TTTF would've been nothing but crown!



One surprise I found was a pot from last Fall that had gone into a bare spot. It hasn't spread much, but it does look healthy.



I seeded ~1lb of Turf Blue HGT seed by hand on the leveled areas and bare spots, then seeded a small amount of Mazama by itself in a shady area as a test. With the spreader, I put down 4lbs of Mazama, 25lbs of 10-24-10, and 8lbs of Pillar G (pyraclostrobin & triticonazole), and 4 30lb bags of Greenview Seeding Mulch (cellulose pellets). The bare and leveled spots got extra pellets by hand. I followed on with 2tsp of Tenacity, 10oz of Serenade, and 3oz of Essentials Plus.



Then up went the stakes and rope (hopefully my neighbors are used to them in the Fall after 5yrs) and the seed got its first soak during some irrigation head fine tuning. I usually adjust the heads for a little more overspray at the edges during seeding.



I also grabbed this video of the MP Rotator SRs in action.



Now the waiting game begins.


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## vnephologist

Well, the forecast had looked really good, but mother nature had something else in store. Rain total sitting at 0.36" since midnight with rain expected all day. Luckily, no hard downpours or puddling yet, so everything looks to be staying in place. Fingers crossed!


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## j4c11

Looking good! Should start to see seedlings emerge by the end of the week.


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## vnephologist

Ended up with 0.78" total precip from the system and all was very light, so no washouts! As evidenced by the high reading in general, I did a poor job of pre-soaking (only ~2hrs instead of recommended 24; didn't RTFM until just before seed down) my soil moisture sensor, but it certainly is working (higher cbar is drier; 0-5 is saturated wet). It'll be interesting to see how fast it dries back out. Although manual says it may take a few wet dry cycles to calibrate since I didn't wet/dry pre-soak. Anybody else on the forum using a Davis Leaf/Soil station and have an idea of normal wet/dry cycle readings?


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## social port

vnephologist said:


> ended up putting down 18 more 40lb bags of Earthgro topsoil.


That stuff is available at the big boxes, right? How do you like the Earthgro topsoil?


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## kolbasz

social port said:


> That stuff is available at the big boxes, right? How do you like the Earthgro topsoil?


it is mediocre at best. Lots of crap, rocks, plastic, wood. Picked up 10 bags the other day, once broken down and raked out it is fine, but there is lots of not dirt in it for sure. For a quick cheap reno I am sure it is fine.


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## vnephologist

social port said:


> vnephologist said:
> 
> 
> 
> ended up putting down 18 more 40lb bags of Earthgro topsoil.
> 
> 
> 
> That stuff is available at the big boxes, right? How do you like the Earthgro topsoil?
Click to expand...

As I understand it, its collected and bagged regionally, so I'll start by saying that your mileage may vary. I was actually very pleased with it for leveling since the bags I got had a pretty significant amount of sandy material (more than is normally in locally delivered topsoil mixes here). I know others have been dissatisfied with rocks, wood, and other material, but I didn't have that experience. What I will say is that it is completely devoid of any organic material, thus why I ended up topdressing with the Scott's Premium (which actually had way more bark chips that I raked and vacuumed off).


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## vnephologist

I noticed this morning that my pots have stopped pouting so I thought I'd post a few pics showing the affects of PGR on new seedlings before I gave them a snip. These were planted on 7/29 and got a 0.32oz/gal spray of T-Pac on 8/20. I don't see any obvious negative signs at this point. I'll continue monitoring how they do until I can walk on the lawn to spray, but at this point I'm seriously considering starting the PGR back up to give the overseed a fighting chance sooner than later. Perhaps I'll pull the pots off and compare the roots too. The fescue pots are already busting through with roots of course. 

Mazama


Turf Blue HGT


Various Barenbrug RTF TTTF Cultivars (considering for back yard)


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## social port

Beautiful. I must admit that I can't detect any significant color differences between them.

Hey, got a question: When you are seeding those pots, are you using fertilizer? If so, do you just toss some in or do you have some kind of measuring technique for this?


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## vnephologist

social port said:


> Hey, got a question: When you are seeding those pots, are you using fertilizer? If so, do you just toss some in or do you have some kind of measuring technique for this?


I'm no expert, but I just toss some in. In this case, I actually grabbed a small bag of "organic starter" from the potting section of my home store. It was effectively Milo+Mycorrhizae. I also tossed in a bit of granular fungicide (Pillar or Heritage G) in a few to compare.


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## vnephologist

Woke up this morning to quite a bit of Tenacity stained new growth in parts of the existing stand. I'm absolutely horrible at ID'ing, so I'm not quite clear whether its one of the aggressive KBGs or some undesirable. I do see a few sharp tipped blades that aren't KBG. Either way, I'm already seeing how difficult its going to be keeping the existing growth at bay.


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## j4c11

Awesome work on the pots. Do you see any difference in color at this point between Mazama and HGT?


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## vnephologist

j4c11 said:


> Awesome work on the pots. Do you see any difference in color at this point between Mazama and HGT?


Nah, I guess its still too early. The only discernible difference I can see in color at this point is that the PGR'd pot of HGT is darker than everything else. At this stage the Mazama is definitely finer bladed than all of the HGT cultivars, but I guess we'll see more differences as it all continues to grow.


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## vnephologist

1.92" of rain over the past two days, but luckily all was light enough to not cause problems. Morning sun has revealed a few sprouts!



Unfortunately, PGR is also starting to wear off as well. With only limited germination, I'm really considering another application today. Thoughts?

In other news, with the past few days of rain, the pots without fungicide have really started to damp off. I threw in some Pillar G, so that experiment is over.


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## Fronta1

vnephologist said:


> 1.92" of rain over the past two days, but luckily all was light enough to not cause problems. Morning sun has revealed a few sprouts!
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, PGR is also starting to wear off as well. With only limited germination, I'm really considering another application today. Thoughts?
> 
> In other news, with the past few days of rain, the pots without fungicide have really started to damp off. I threw in some Pillar G, so that experiment is over.


Wouldn't the pgr affect the seedlings, as well?


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## vnephologist

Fronta1 said:


> Wouldn't the pgr affect the seedlings, as well?


Yeah, I think if more were up, I wouldn't really consider it. It's sort of like strike now or wait a few weeks. Hmm...


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## Fronta1

You could give it a little more time and just mow.

Edit: as long as it's a walk behind


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## vnephologist

Fronta1 said:


> You could give it a little more time and just mow.
> 
> Edit: as long as it's a walk behind


Stop preaching patience like I did to somebody else here this AM. ;-P Okay, okay. I picked up a Fiskars reel during my reno last year and was planning to keep it low with that. Guess I should pass the time by finding my lapping compound and getting it ready.


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## vnephologist

With forecast highs in the mid to lower 70's, I've dialed back the watering to every 3hrs and adjusted the schedule a bit with the days starting to get shorter. Now watering 10A, 1P, 4P, and 7P instead of every 2hrs @ 10A, 12P, 2P, 4P, 6P, 8P.

The lower temps and lack of PGR have really started to make the established KBG jump. A few places I missed PGR are up over 4" and other parts are at about half that. I'm considering getting the Fiskars out this weekend and pushing it back down to around 1.5". Since I'll already be walking on it, I'll probably put down some M5 & Companion fungicides while I'm at it.


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## vnephologist

Yard got a cut once in each direction with the Fiskars reel at a notch higher than 1" (can't quite figure out the height setting so need to take an actual bench height) today along with 9 oz M5, 10 oz Serenade, and 1.25 oz (not fl oz) of Companion fungicides. Also added 3 oz of Essentials Plus and 4 tsp of surfactant to the mix. The leveled areas are starting to fill in nicely, but not seeing a great deal of Mazama germination in the existing stand yet. Hopefully its just slow out of the gate or I just couldn't see well. I did go ahead and put down an additional pound of Turf Blue HGT in some of the barest non-leveled areas. As I didn't roll in, its probably throw away, but I couldn't resist the opportunity. Here are some shots I grabbed today.

One of the leveled areas starting to fill in nicely (pre-cut).



This is exactly why we use Tenacity. Beautiful!



Found a few fungi.



West side post cut.



East side post cut.



Post cut pano.



West side post spray. Man the marker die really makes the color pop. 



East side post spray.



Post spray pano.


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## vnephologist

Just thought the leveled areas with all of the new green fuzz looked pretty cool on my way back from walking the dog this afternoon.


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## kds

She looks good!


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## j4c11

Awesome that turned out well.


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## vnephologist

Overall, I think things are looking great. I found these three light colored boogers today though. Hope it isn't a forewarning.


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## vnephologist

Existing stand is off to the races, and I had quite a few tall bent over blades from the Fiskars cut, so I carefully put the rotary on it at 2" yesterday. I'm avoiding the leveled areas still, and hopefully I'm not tearing up the overseeded Mazama. I think things are on track, but found (pulled & sacrificed a few nearby seedlings) a little more poa (?) today in another area.


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## vnephologist

Sprayed 2 tsp Tenacity, 6.5 oz Companion, 4 oz Eagle 20, 1.25 oz PGR, and 4.5 oz Iron Glucoheptonate (5%). Was a little earlier than I wanted for the Tenacity and PGR, but I will be busy until I leave on Wednesday for a trip and not returning until 9/27. Bleaching from seed down Tenacity treatment is completely gone from grass and there's a bunch of new clover popping up. The PGR teated pots had no issues with an application at 3 weeks and I was worried the existing stand would be out of control when I returned without intervention. I ran out of time before dark, but plan to put down 2.5 lbs (0.25 N/k) of ammonium sulfate tomorrow and am hoping to sneak in a cut to 2" on Tuesday or Wednesday before I leave. That should give the PGR and Iron time to absorb. This was my first spray of the Companion liquid (had been using wettable powder) bio-fungicide and Iron Glucoheptonate since ordering from Simple Success. Hoping to have made my own FAS by the time I run out of this 32 oz bottle. I don't necessarily love Eagle 20, but I wanted to rotate to a DMI for this fungicide application and I already had it on hand. If the heat and humidity has moderated by the time I return, I'm hoping to transition to bio-fungicide maintenance only. I'll grab some pics after the cut before I leave.


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## vnephologist

Dropped 2.5 lbs (0.25 N/k) of ammonium sulfate this morning. Have to say that I'm majorly disappointed with my first use of the Earthway 2600A. It was a bit damp this morning so the ammonium sulfate was a little sticky, but I just couldn't get it to drop consistently. The cotter pin agitator has to be one of the worst designs I've ever seen. I had to resort to going back to my cheap Scott's spreader which handled the job without issue. I see others have had issues with the Earthway agitator on other models, so I plan to contact Earthway to try and get it sorted. If they can't help, I plan to return it for a refund.


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## vnephologist

A few post cut pics from today. Jose offshore is kicking up the wind today and there were a ton of leaves. I'm a bit worried what I'll come home to on 9/27, but not much I can do about it. The area out at the road with the most summer/dog damage doesn't quite have the germination I had hoped for. I think I probably applied too many cellulose pellets and smothered the seed. Hopefully the Fall N apps and lower cut will get everything spreading.


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## Colonel K0rn

vnephologist said:


> A few post cut pics from today. Jose offshore is kicking up the wind today and there were a ton of leaves. I'm a bit worried what I'll come home to on 9/27, but not much I can do about it. The area out at the road with the most summer/dog damage doesn't quite have the germination I had hoped for. I think I probably applied too many cellulose pellets and smothered the seed. Hopefully the Fall N apps and lower cut will get everything spreading.


It's coming along nicely! I thought to myself "Man, that's from dog damage? Holy cow, I'd have to go "Cool Hand Luke" on those dogs." Regarding pellets possibly smothering seeds, I had a couple of areas in the parkways of my yard that the pellets were a bit thick, so I got out my garden hose, wet them down, and used the garden weasel to break up the pellets. Didn't damage the grass that was trying to grow through it. I figured if I can add more openings and break it up, the grass will grow through it if it hasn't germinated already.


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## vnephologist

Rotary cut this AM at 2". Applied 0.75 lbs of urea and 1 lb of ammonium sulfate (0.257 lb N/k) via spray with 4 gallons carrier and then watered in with normal 12p and 4p irrigation. This evening I sprayed 9 oz M5 and 10 oz Serenade fungicides. Overall, looking good good. Will post some post cut pics tomorrow.

[Edited below for pics and additional notes]



This was my first nitrogen spray based on osuturfman's tips. The urea dissolved much better than the ammonium sulfate and the Chapin 20v pump struggled a bit, so I'll probably just try urea alone next time. I feel much better about the consistency of application than broadcast spreading such a small amount though. Research indicated that there wasn't an issue tank mixing fungicides, but I wanted to be sure to water in the nitrogen and I wanted surfactant and time for drying the fungicides so I split the applications. I also had 0.75 oz PGR on the schedule, but decided to wait another week since top growth seems to be well under control (very few clippings between Thu and Sun cut) and I have a bit of Tenacity staining I'd like to grow out of.

I also collected about a 1 gallon size bucket of acorns. Its a pretty time intensive process, but I like to at least keep them out of the leveled areas with nothing but new seed since the squirrels will grab them and eat or bury. Squirrels are the biggest risk to these areas at this point (especially since my pots are in bad shape from lack of water while on vacation). I did see a large number of tiny blades during this process. Unsure whether these are overseed or new tillers at this point.

Due to my consistent fungicide apps, I'm not seeing any pressure despite the high temps and humidity over the past couple of weeks. Rotated from FRAC G1 to M5 this time, and hopefully rotation between C3, G1, and M5 combined with the bios will reduce the chance of resistance. We got a reprieve from the temp and humidity this weekend, but temps are forecast to rise again towards the end of this week.

I have several pesky spots closest to the house where the upper layer of the soil is harder and its more heavily shaded. I decided to do a little experiment and hit the area with the garden cultivator and lightly overseed my shade TTTF mix from the back. The full Mazama area on the other shady side of the house came in very poorly so I also overseeded the TTTF there too. Depending on the results and how well the KBG does through this next year, I might abandon the 100% KBG and overseed a couple of these TTTF cultivars next year.


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## vnephologist

Sprayed 1.2 lbs urea (0.256 lb N/M), 0.75 oz PGR, 3 oz Iron Glucoheptonate (5%), 7 oz Essentials Plus, and 7 oz Companion bio fungicide. The tropical moisture is making it downright nasty outside. Companion stinks up the whole neighborhood in ~80% humidity! We should get enough moisture over the next few hours to water in the urea, I'll irrigate in the AM if not.


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## LawnNerd

Im with you on this humidity. It's absolutely disgusting to be in. I put out chemical fungicide friday in anticipation, and after today im so glad. Fungus heaven.


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## vnephologist

My new nitrogen spray routine and last week's heat/drought pointed out some issues I was having with head to head coverage in my smallest zone between the sidewalk and road. This is also the sunniest, most urinated upon, and subsequently, damaged area.

I decided to replace the MP Rotator SRs with MP1000s and dig up a small 6" strip closest to the road down to about 10" and fill with a mix of dirt and moisture control potting soil. Into that, I planted four HGT KBG pots and seeded Firecracker SLS fescue. Overall, the soil conditions in the strip must be worse than other parts of the lawn because my KBG overseed in the bare areas just isn't taking off like the other bare spots. Given this, I also went ahead and overseeded 4 lbs of Firecracker SLS over the whole strip. I'm hoping it'll handle the conditions a bit better than the KBG and based on NTEP data and the Mountain View tech sheet, it shouldn't have an issue with my 2" HOC. Either way, it should make an interesting experiment.


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## chrisben

vnephologist said:


> I also collected about a 1 gallon size bucket of acorns. Its a pretty time intensive process, but I like to at least keep them out of the leveled areas with nothing but new seed since the squirrels will grab them and eat or bury. Squirrels are the biggest risk to these areas at this point (especially since my pots are in bad shape from lack of water while on vacation). I did see a large number of tiny blades during this process. Unsure whether these are overseed or new tillers at this point.


Not sure if you've seen the nut wizzard yet, but made things a lot easier for me at my old place picking up horse chestnuts, and black walnuts. Pretty sure the small one will pick up acorns, but can't say for sure that's not a nut I've needed to crack. 

http://www.nutwizard.com/


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## vnephologist

chrisben said:


> vnephologist said:
> 
> 
> 
> I also collected about a 1 gallon size bucket of acorns. Its a pretty time intensive process, but I like to at least keep them out of the leveled areas with nothing but new seed since the squirrels will grab them and eat or bury. Squirrels are the biggest risk to these areas at this point (especially since my pots are in bad shape from lack of water while on vacation). I did see a large number of tiny blades during this process. Unsure whether these are overseed or new tillers at this point.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if you've seen the nut wizzard yet, but made things a lot easier for me at my old place picking up horse chestnuts, and black walnuts. Pretty sure the small one will pick up acorns, but can't say for sure that's not a nut I've needed to crack.
> 
> http://www.nutwizard.com/
Click to expand...

Just ordered. Thanks!


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## vnephologist

Cut @2" on Friday. Sprayed 2.3 lbs of urea (0.49 lb N/M) and 0.5 oz PGR today using my new Tee Jet wand and AIC nozzle. Went with the blue nozzle vs red to err on the side of caution. Ended up spraying ~3 gallons vs my typical 4 on a single pass, so thinking red will be just right. Really liked the spray pattern and think a pair of nozzles on my DIY walking boom will be great.

Firecracker is already up in the strip by the road and KBG is filling in nicely. Interestingly, the newly seeded leveled areas aren't responding to PGR like the more mature stand. They're easily growing an inch every few days. I could probably get away with a cut per week, otherwise.

Postimage seems to be having some issues so will post some pics later.


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## vnephologist

Forgot to add in my earlier post that I also dropped 8 lbs of Pillar G (pyraclostrobin & triticonazole) fungicide this weekend as well. It will be my last fungicide app as long as heat and humidity stay away. I'll do bios every other week through December unless things get much colder.

The PGR observation in my last post may have been a bit off. I guess I'm just not used to 2" yet. I cut again today and actually took a bit off the whole lawn. I'm really pleased with it. I'm getting close to my best look of last May, but at over an inch shorter.


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## ericgautier

^ looks great!


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## vnephologist

Sprayed 2.3 lbs of urea (0.49 lb N/M), 0.75 oz PGR, 3 oz Iron Glucoheptonate (5%), and 7 oz of Companion bio-fungicide yesterday. Watered in urea afterward with ~0.1" in each zone. I'll have to be more careful with too much overlap or back off the urea a bit as I have a few yellow blades this AM. It looks like most of yellow blades are older, mature fescue though. I had hand pulled a few clumps of that stuff as I found it at reno time anyway.

I cut about 0.5" off this AM @2", so it looks like for now, I can get away with cutting once a week with the PGR and weekly high dose spoon feeding. I also planted ~10 of my best looking pots in a few bare spots before a cold front passes through and makes it decidedly more chilly tomorrow.


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## j4c11

That's looking pretty good. Seeing any color difference between HGT and Mazama yet?


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## vnephologist

j4c11 said:


> That's looking pretty good. Seeing any color difference between HGT and Mazama yet?


No, not as we had hoped, at least. The only place for me to really tell is the shaded area on the side where I seeded nothing but Mazama. Unfortunately, it came in so poorly that I ended up overseeding my TTTF shade blend there too. I'd guess that based on the poor establishment in that bare area, the overseed is probably almost non-existent. I did plant six Mazama pots and a few HGT pots today. The HGT pots actually look darker at this point, but I think its only because they have larger blades. The Mazama is either really dwarf or really slow to mature. I put the Mazama pots in a couple of shadier spots where density is pretty low so I'll be able to keep an eye on them. Now that they're in the lawn, It'll also be interesting to see how they respond to my spoon feeding, PGR and iron apps.

I'm hoping for either a better Mazama seed yield and more choices for purchase next summer, or that the Barserati we've been patiently waiting for finally makes it to market. BTW, not sure if you noticed, but looks like they got Barserati TWCA certified.


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## pennstater2005

That looks great! I love the other landscaping too. I see a dormer there. Is that a Cape? That's what we have but without the dormers. I'd like to have them put in someday.


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## social port

Man, that grass is looking great. 
That's what I call dark green!


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## j4c11

vnephologist said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's looking pretty good. Seeing any color difference between HGT and Mazama yet?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping for either a better Mazama seed yield and more choices for purchase next summer, or that the Barserati we've been patiently waiting for finally makes it to market. BTW, not sure if you noticed, but looks like they got Barserati TWCA certified.
Click to expand...

Have you tried Midnight yet? It ranks up there in Raleigh tests, and the color rating is significantly higher than Barvette and Barserati. I did a strip this fall of about 1,000 sq ft., I have high hopes. We'll see when summer hits.

The HGT bluegrass I planted on the side of the house in area that gets no water, no fungicide and little fertilizer came back with a vengeance beginning of October. It was completely brown around August and didn't see a drop of irrigation water all summer. It's a little thin, but cut at 3" you can't even tell. I'm pretty impressed, that kind of dormancy recovery - if consistent - would make it an ideal grass for the transition zone. Darn near disease-proof too.


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## vnephologist

pennstater2005 said:


> That looks great! I love the other landscaping too. I see a dormer there. Is that a Cape? That's what we have but without the dormers. I'd like to have them put in someday.


It is a Cape. ~1400 sqft, and we do have three dormers, but the roof is pretty ugly because its the original asbestos tile. Structurally, we're told the roof will last forever, but its pretty ugly. We've been planning to add on the back of the house for some time and plan to replace it when we do that. It was built in the 40's. About a month ago, my wife stumbled across the Google street view pic from 2015 below and said, "wow, you really have improved the lawn." I figured I'd post it since it shows both the house and the pitiful lawn from back then (it was the year I decided to install irrigation).


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## social port

j4c11 said:


> vnephologist said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's looking pretty good. Seeing any color difference between HGT and Mazama yet?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping for either a better Mazama seed yield and more choices for purchase next summer, or that the Barserati we've been patiently waiting for finally makes it to market. BTW, not sure if you noticed, but looks like they got Barserati TWCA certified.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have you tried Midnight yet? It ranks up there in Raleigh tests, and the color rating is significantly higher than Barvette and Barserati. I did a strip this fall of about 1,000 sq ft., I have high hopes. We'll see when summer hits.
> 
> The HGT bluegrass I planted on the side of the house in area that gets no water, no fungicide and little fertilizer came back with a vengeance beginning of October. It was completely brown around August and didn't see a drop of irrigation water all summer. It's a little thin, but cut at 3" you can't even tell. I'm pretty impressed, that kind of dormancy recovery - if consistent - would make it an ideal grass for the transition zone. Darn near disease-proof too.
Click to expand...

I was pretty well sold on Midnight for the transition zone back when I was thinking about venturing into KBG world. What exactly is the HGT? Is it a hybrid?


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## vnephologist

social port said:


> I was pretty well sold on Midnight for the transition zone back when I was thinking about venturing into KBG world. What exactly is the HGT? Is it a hybrid?


So I think "HGT" originally stood for "healthy grass technology," but I don't see Barenbrug marketing that phrase much any longer. As we're referring to it, its a KBG blend of Barenbrug's best cultivars. It performs particularly well for us in the transition zone because it contains their Barvette cultivar, which is very hardy in the heat & humidity and is very aggressive. The downfall of Barvette (and, I think other eurasian cultivars, is that they don't possess very dark genetic color). However, Barenbrug entered a similar cultivar, BAR PP 110358 (Barserati) in the latest NTEP trials that seems to possess similar traits, but with much better color. We're told that this cultivar will show up in the Turf Blue HGT blend next year.


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## social port

vnephologist said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was pretty well sold on Midnight for the transition zone back when I was thinking about venturing into KBG world. What exactly is the HGT? Is it a hybrid?
> 
> 
> 
> So I think "HGT" originally stood for "healthy grass technology," but I don't see Barenbrug marketing that phrase much any longer. As we're referring to it, its a KBG blend of Barenbrug's best cultivars. It performs particularly well for us in the transition zone because it contains their Barvette cultivar, which is very hardy in the heat & humidity and is very aggressive. The downfall of Barvette (and, I think other eurasian cultivars, is that they don't possess very dark genetic color). However, Barenbrug entered a similar cultivar, BAR PP 110358 (Barserati) in the latest NTEP trials that seems to possess similar traits, but with much better color. We're told that this cultivar will show up in the Turf Blue HGT blend next year.
Click to expand...

Good info here, thanks.
From what I remember, light color was always the knock against the hybrids as well. 
Personally, I never observed a lime color with the HKB I grew, but the grass died before 4 weeks of age. It was also mixed with fescue, so who knows what I was actually seeing,


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## vnephologist

j4c11 said:


> Have you tried Midnight yet? It ranks up there in Raleigh tests, and the color rating is significantly higher than Barvette and Barserati. I did a strip this fall of about 1,000 sq ft., I have high hopes. We'll see when summer hits.
> 
> The HGT bluegrass I planted on the side of the house in area that gets no water, no fungicide and little fertilizer came back with a vengeance beginning of October. It was completely brown around August and didn't see a drop of irrigation water all summer. It's a little thin, but cut at 3" you can't even tell. I'm pretty impressed, that kind of dormancy recovery - if consistent - would make it an ideal grass for the transition zone. Darn near disease-proof too.


I had ~1.25 lbs of Midnight in my renovation mix last Fall, actually. I'm anxious to see how your mono-strip fares though. I'll admit, since you intro'd me to PGR (+Fe) and now with the grass in its 2nd year, I don't think I could ask for it to be much darker. I'm very happy with it. At this point, what I'm also very interested in seeing is how these newer TTTF cultivars mature (seeded 4 in the backyard and one in my strip). Particularly, how the Firecracker SLS I seeded in my strip looks in the Winter and early Spring alongside the HGT. The Firecracker has been up for a couple weeks and is already darker than my HGT pots seeded in early summer (and maybe the rest of the lawn, see below). Its a beautiful combo at the moment. We'll see how wide the blades turn out and how bunchy it gets, I guess.


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## pennstater2005

vnephologist said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That looks great! I love the other landscaping too. I see a dormer there. Is that a Cape? That's what we have but without the dormers. I'd like to have them put in someday.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a Cape. ~1400 sqft, and we do have three dormers, but the roof is pretty ugly because its the original asbestos tile. Structurally, we're told the roof will last forever, but its pretty ugly. We've been planning to add on the back of the house for some time and plan to replace it when we do that. It was built in the 40's. About a month ago, my wife stumbled across the Google street view pic from 2015 below and said, "wow, you really have improved the lawn." I figured I'd post it since it shows both the house and the pitiful lawn from back then (it was the year I decided to install irrigation).
Click to expand...

That is a striking distance in the lawn! I love Cape's. Ours is a little smaller at around 1200 square feet. But, we finished the basement and that added some footage. You've done some good work!


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## LawnNerd

I dropped in the first 4 of my best pots into my main yard. Didn't end up needing them, so I put them out there to see how they perform to help me decide if i can handle KBG there. The pots i dropped are Properity and Award which are rated high for color, and they are several shades greener than my TTTF. Pots are only about 4 months old, so I'm not making any judgement calls yet. Too soon for that.


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## vnephologist

LawnNerd said:


> I dropped in the first 4 of my best pots into my main yard. Didn't end up needing them, so I put them out there to see how they perform to help me decide if i can handle KBG there. The pots i dropped are Properity and Award which are rated high for color, and they are several shades greener than my TTTF. Pots are only about 4 months old, so I'm not making any judgement calls yet. Too soon for that.


That's good to know. Did you end up doing any Mazama pots?


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## LawnNerd

Most certainly. Just came out of pout stage and starting to mature a little. Definitely slower with the weaker sun this time of year vs August and early September.


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## vnephologist

LawnNerd said:


> Most certainly. Just came out of pout stage and starting to mature a little. Definitely slower with the weaker sun this time of year vs August and early September.


Based on my experience, I'm not sure if its time of year or just the cultivar/seed quality. I ended up being pretty disappointed with mine. Hopefully yours turns out better. Is the Mazama you seeded in the lawn noticeable?


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## LawnNerd

I think about 40%-50% made it. I got hit hard with leaf spot while it was still pouting, and my first choice of fungicide didn't cut it. Once i switched to Propiconizole i noticed a difference. Weather was awful for me, so bad that even my pots which i strictly water from below in trays got hit.

It also doesn't help that I'm maybe getting 4 hrs direct sunlight now on these areas with the lower sun. It bakes in the sun all summer, but once the sun lowers to these levels, It is behind the trees across the street. I don't fault the seed, i fault my bad timing and bad weather.


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## vnephologist

Cut @2" yesterday and sprayed 2.0 lbs of urea (0.47 lb N/M). I backed off the urea just a tad after a few yellow blades last week. I also had my last planned app of bio fungicide on the schedule, but with a strong cold front due through the area today and a week of no rain and low humidity forecast, I decided to skip.


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## vnephologist

Cut @ 2" and bagged up leaves on Saturday and sprayed 2.0 lbs of urea (0.47 lb N/M), 0.75 oz PGR, 3 oz Iron Glucoheptonate (5%) today. Overall, looking great. Only a few bare spots left to fill in and it's deeper green than I've ever seen it. Lots of folks commented on it when they stopped by trick or treating. My wife claimed my "reno ropes" were keeping people from stopping by over the past few years, so I took them down a little earlier this year. Unfortunately, it's only been a few days and I already have a urination stain (see in pic below). Oh well. Need to do some research to see if there are any tricks to neutralizing the effects any quicker.

At this point I'm watching soil moisture content and ET rate and watering manually. With rain here or there, I think it's only been one full watering over the past week or two. I am still watering the strip by the road for a couple minutes on the abnormally warm days since I overseeded the TTTF there.

Here are a few pics I took after the cut on Saturday:


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## vnephologist

Collected leaves and cut on Friday. Decided to calculate time since overseed in August and it's been 76 days. Had AS and Essentials Plus on the schedule but didn't get to it. Will try to spray tomorrow. Moved the cars to other side of street to vacuum and bag leaves so got a panoramic from a new perspective facing the house. Was the first cut on diagonal since I overseeded.


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## social port

Man, that is looking good. It has a lot of 'pop,' which is especially visible in that panoramic.

Also, I couldn't help but notice the absence of backyard pics. It would be fine by me if you took a shot of that Firecracker every now and then


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## vnephologist

social port said:


> Also, I couldn't help but notice the absence of backyard pics. It would be fine by me if you took a shot of that Firecracker every now and then


Haha, you called me out! I had some major issues in the back with sowing my test plots too heavily. TTTF gets out of the ground so quickly that I didn't have an opportunity to keep it short enough because of a vacation the week after seed down and it bent over on itself too much before I could tend to it. I'll try to grab some new pics and update the backyard thread today. Its actually looking better than I thought it would. Keep in mind that the strip in the front by the road also has Firecracker overseeded.


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## vnephologist

Never got to my N app last weekend and thought it was warm enough of stay with urea for now so cut on Saturday and sprayed 2.0 lbs of urea (0.47 lb N/M), 0.75 oz PGR, and 3 oz Iron Glucoheptonate (5%). After a battery mishap and a frustrating trip to the home store for another one, I emptied the sprayer with barely enough time to see my marker die so no pics before it got covered in leaves overnight.


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## vnephologist

Cleaned leaves and cut on Sunday. Made the switch to ammonium sulfate at 2.5 lbs (0.24 lb N/M) this week. Backed off total N since it requires a higher carrier volume. I also watered 0.25" immediately following app. The schedule I put together doesn't require any additional PGR until Spring, but I'll keep an eye on the rebound given the warm temps this week and make a call this coming weekend. I ordered a pH test kit yesterday to keep a better eye since I've been pounding the N pretty hard. My research seems to indicate that lime application has no seasonal requirement, so depending on test results I may drop some this weekend as well. Overall, still extremely happy with the current look. Its getting harder and harder to find the leveled and completely reseeded areas.


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## ericgautier

^ looks awesome!


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## kevreh

vnephologist said:


> My new nitrogen spray routine and last week's heat/drought pointed out some issues I was having with head to head coverage in my smallest zone between the sidewalk and road. This is also the sunniest, most urinated upon, and subsequently, damaged area.
> 
> I decided to replace the MP Rotator SRs with MP1000s and dig up a small 6" strip closest to the road down to about 10" and fill with a mix of dirt and moisture control potting soil. Into that, I planted four HGT KBG pots and seeded Firecracker SLS fescue. Overall, the soil conditions in the strip must be worse than other parts of the lawn because my KBG overseed in the bare areas just isn't taking off like the other bare spots. Given this, I also went ahead and overseeded 4 lbs of Firecracker SLS over the whole strip. I'm hoping it'll handle the conditions a bit better than the KBG and based on NTEP data and the Mountain View tech sheet, it shouldn't have an issue with my 2" HOC. Either way, it should make an interesting experiment.


Do you like spraying N vs dropping it as a granular? I noticed my bag of urea from lesco says it can be liquified. Makes me wonder if it's worth in. The prill is large, so maybe spraying would be more even. ?


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## probasestealer

Looking good. Can't wait to follow. I seeded KBG/HBG with TTTF in my backyard this past fall, the HBG is predominant now. I'm amazed at the rhizomes produced and the rate of HBG and KBG spread.

I'm a little south of you, but am interested to see how our lawns fair this summer.


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## vnephologist

kevreh said:


> Do you like spraying N vs dropping it as a granular? I noticed my bag of urea from lesco says it can be liquified. Makes me wonder if it's worth in. The prill is large, so maybe spraying would be more even. ?


We discussed quite a bit here...

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1243

Long story, short, I'm a big fan of spraying when amounts are small.


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## g-man

FYI, based on that discussion MQ has a thread in the warm season side about liquid nitrogen. MQ's Liquid Lawn Fertilizing Plan


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## kevreh

vnephologist said:


> kevreh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you like spraying N vs dropping it as a granular? I noticed my bag of urea from lesco says it can be liquified. Makes me wonder if it's worth in. The prill is large, so maybe spraying would be more even. ?
> 
> 
> 
> We discussed quite a bit here...
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1243
> 
> Long story, short, I'm a big fan of spraying when amounts are small.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. Interesting.


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## TGIF

vnephologist said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nicely done! Looking forward to the Mazama/HGT color comparison.
> 
> Did you order more HGT seed recently? If so, what are the cultivars and percentages for this year? They seem to vary.
> 
> 
> 
> The bag I received from Todd Valley recently (dated 8/16) has 34% Barvette, 25% Barrister, 20% Barimpala, 20% Barrari and is Yellow Jacket coated. I ordered from Roozen's last year and ended up with a 3/15 lot that had 34% Barvette, 24% Barduke, 19% Barrari, and 19% Everglade that wasn't coated. I thought the Everglade was interesting since it isn't their seed. Not sure if there were seed yield issues or what. Either way, the cultivars look better this year. Barrister seems to have better color and Barimpala seems to be a fast starter. I'm only going to put it down in the bare and leveled areas though.
Click to expand...

2018 Turf Blue HGT Mixes from Stout Seeds

Turf blue with RPR
14.58% Barimpala
9.97% Barvette
9.88% Barrister
4.92 Barrari
9.87 Barbeta RPR

Turf Blue HGT I just order this one and it came with Barserati
Barvette 32.41%
Barrister 24.14%
Barrari 24.74%
Barserati 14..44%

Turf Blue HGT with yellow jacket no Barserati
17.1% Barvette
12.43% Barrister
9.82% Barimpala
9.61% Barrari
50% yellow jacket coating


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## STL

@TGIF Thanks for sharing the info! Any chance you could post a pic of the non-coated HGT seed label or post up what the weed and other crop % are?


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## TGIF

STL said:


> @TGIF Thanks for sharing the info! Any chance you could post a pic of the non-coated HGT seed label or post up what the weed and other crop % are?


Not sure how to post the picture yet but weeds and other crop are both 0.00%


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## STL

@TGIF Awesome. Thanks


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