# Four Fescues



## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Inspired by @bf7's trial of 4th M vs Rhizing Moon earlier this season, I decided to do four small pots with the four varieties I have in my yard / and am over/re-seeding with...

From left to right we have: Renegerate, Rhizing Moon, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS.

Overseeded the back yard with all four Sunday, planted the pots Monday. Hopefully this will help me know which is which in the lawn, but it should be interesting either way.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

Subscribed! 
I am particularly interested in how wide the grass blades are.


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## stacik84 (Feb 27, 2018)

Excited to see your results as well!! I live in MA as well

I'm Overseeding with 4th M and Titanium 2 LS this weekend. Needed some better drought and shade tolerant seed....previous used JG BB Ultra.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@stacik84 JG BB was my seed of choice at my last house - fantastic seed! The qualities of the fescue they use (deep rooting, dark color, endophytes) informed what I was looking for when building my blend.

I picked these four for the above reasons, but shade tolerance and wear-resistance was important too. The three non-Regenerate ones are all rhizomatous and shade tolerant, and Regenerate tillers quickly although it doesn't have rhizomes.

Your 4M and Titanium are great choices IMO!


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

stacik84 said:


> Excited to see your results as well!! I live in MA as well
> 
> I'm Overseeding with 4th M and Titanium 2 LS this weekend. Needed some better drought and shade tolerant seed....previous used JG BB Ultra.


I have been looking at exactly these two for overseeding an area that has shade and the native fine fascue (at least when we bought the house) are all a brown haze right now. I am planning to throw seed down next week and was going to pick up exactly these two but was debating if I needed anything more. Have you previously had any experience with these cultivars?
Where did you pick the seeds from?


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## stacik84 (Feb 27, 2018)

uts said:


> stacik84 said:
> 
> 
> > Excited to see your results as well!! I live in MA as well
> ...


First time purchase of these cultivators. I bought two 50pound bags from Newsom Seed. $100/bag with 0.0% Weed & Other Crop Seed. Paid about $30/bag for shipping. Cheapest price by FAR from searching online. Super excited....will let you know the results.

JG BB Ultra had a great green-up in the Spring (see picture). Unfortunately because I don't have an irrigation system, things got a bit dried up (driveway edges) this summer with the drought. Obviously my mistake, as I should of kept up with watering. Also, JG BB Ultra has about 1% weed in the mix...and I just couldn't and didn't want to deal with that. Previous homeowners neglected the lawn, so I spent 2 seasons wiping out the weeds.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Nice! Subscribed!

Perhaps the result of this experiment will you push you ever closer to an RM mono. Not picking any favorites here...


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

bf7 said:


> Nice! Subscribed!
> 
> Perhaps the result of this experiment will you push you ever closer to an RM mono. Not picking any favorites here...


With how poor a job I do blending the seeds I'm sure I'll have a monostand somewhere :mrgreen:

I think Rhizing Moon is already my favorite of the four anyway - just need the blend for that there genetic diversity in the lawn.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

uts said:


> stacik84 said:
> 
> 
> > Excited to see your results as well!! I live in MA as well
> ...


If you are at all interested in Rhizing Moon, keep an eye on Hearne seed co's website or call Hogan and ask them to order you a bag. Sounds like the prices stacik84 got will be hard to beat though! I paid $170 shipped for the RM from Hogan and the usual seedsuperstore prices for the other three.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

stacik84 said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> > stacik84 said:
> ...


That's already some great looking turf. It may get a tiny bit thicker and will definitely be a bit darker.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

You know what? I remembered a bare spot I filled in my front yard last year where I did have an RM monostand spot... First year I was here I overseeded the front with JG Black Beauty. Second year was when I devised my blend and got my hands on 10lb of RM first.

I don't have any closeups, but I bet you can tell where the RM is...


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Wow that is some contrast.. that looks fantastic.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

Hahaha is this for real? Might as well start to gly everything else now. And demand Hogan to get you another 200 lbs asap.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

bf7 said:


> Hahaha is this for real? Might as well start to gly everything else now. And demand Hogan to get you another 200 lbs asap.


 :mrgreen: That is why I'm doing the full reno up front hahaha... well that and some huge triv patches made all the more visible by the super dark grass.

The good news is all four varieties were within 0.2 or 0.3 points of each other for color in the ntep trials. I think Regenerate is even a little darker than RM.

I wish my back yard got similar sun to the front - the pictures I get back there don't do the color justice. When my front yard grows in this fall it's hopefully gonna be crazy.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

A slightly better color shot...


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I can see Regenerate being darker. Have never seen them side by side. The LSD in the NTEP reports is probably higher than 0.2 (don't remember exactly) so the judges may view them as virtually identical color wise.

How do you think the poa triv got there? That sucks... I'm praying there are no seeds in the topsoil I brought in.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

bf7 said:


> I can see Regenerate being darker. Have never seen them side by side. The LSD in the NTEP reports is probably higher than 0.2 (don't remember exactly) so the judges may view them as virtually identical color wise.
> 
> How do you think the poa triv got there? That sucks... I'm praying there are no seeds in the topsoil I brought in.


It was there when I moved in - I just didn't start strategizing for it until late 2019.

That is the main reason I have yet to seed the front. I want to fallow the last load of top soil I had brought in one more time.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Seed down in the front yard today. Used the slice seeder again - took five full passes to distribute my 100lb of seed. I am beat... I'll do tenacity tomorrow


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Looks really good ita gonna come in nice. I always slice seed and go heavy on the seed with good results, usually never have to reseed patches that way


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

jimmythegreek said:


> Looks really good ita gonna come in nice. I always slice seed and go heavy on the seed with good results, usually never have to reseed patches that way


Having reseeded patches in literally every seed project I've done over the years, I decided to see if the machine could be the answer. Good to hear!


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Day four for the little sampler pots.

Regenerate - one VERY vigorous sprout, but looking like good germination otherwise

Rhizing Moon has also popped

As has Titanium LS

Valkyrie LS has germinated but appears to be the least-far along of the four.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Lots of seedlings today. Still one shoot of Regenerate that's 2-3x taller than the rest... I think I can see a few of those in my yard too haha


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

I'll be putting down Rowdy, Rhizing Moon, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS in 3 weeks. Looking forward to how yours goes!


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> I'll be putting down Rowdy, Rhizing Moon, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS in 3 weeks. Looking forward to how yours goes!


Very nice. That's a strong shade blend!


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@Carlson, when I spoke to Hogan Seed about a TTTF blend this is what they came up with. The blend also includes 15% KBG, Blue Note (7.5%) and Midnight (7.5%). I have more sun than shade, should I be concerned with this mix?


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@Glen_Cove_5511 Definitely not! Shade tolerance does not mean an aversion to sun. I just know that of your four TTTFs, three are in the SSS shade fescue blend. (And they don't carry Rhizing Moon).

Did Hogan blend that for you? If you don't mind me asking - how much money for how much seed?

I've been mixing my blend myself because the SSS prices are steep and they have no RM. If I could get Hogan to make me a 50lb touch-up bag next year I'd be thrilled.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@Carlson... Hogan is blending it for me and it should ship out Wednesday or Thursday. I'm getting 40 lbs. I'll let you know the final cost once I receive my invoice at shipping time.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

I just ordered 50lb bags of RM, 4th Mel and Titanium LS so i would def be interested in what hogan is charging for next year. I am surprised how few people are carrying RM.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Good, visible sprouting outside - seed down was one week ago exactly.

Can you tell I went a little heavy with the by-hand-plus-garden-weasel seeding at the edge of the patio? :mrgreen:

I've been seeing too many posts from folks in MA getting fungus on renos, so I'm gonna go do 1oz/k of propiconazole in the front yard today before the seeds start sprouting.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

The color of this mix in the rest of my yard is starting to get back to the nice dark green. Summer heat and lower mowing in prep for the overseed had it looking on the lighter side... I can't wait to be able to mow it again haha


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Pots at day 6.
Regenerate & Rhizing Moon

(I'm going to need to cut that one Regenerate plant soon)

Titanium & Valkyrie


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Day 7. These are a good analogy for the seeding in the yard -- it looks like I missed some spots, but the longer they go the more pops up & the bare spots aren't as bad.


Still probably going to need to add seed to some of the spots outside come 3 weeks post-seed day.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

I've bee putting the samplers on the patio for some daytime sunlight and it seems they have grown quicker for it.


Regenerate seems to be the quickest-growing one - the other three are all pretty close. I did snip the super-tall blade yesterday.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Yesterday the front yard was in that phase where you can just see the green hue with your eyes but no joy with a camera. This morning it's quite visible out there...


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Front at 3 DAG


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## PatchOfWeeds (Jul 5, 2020)

I ordered from Hogan as well, it's my first time using good seed. I placed my order like 2.5 weeks ago they couldn't mix because they were out of Rhizing Moon. So I made a blend of:
25% Rhizing Moon
25% Rowdy
25% Valkyrie 
25% Titanium 
I ordered 100 lbs and with shipping it was roughly 315.00. Ups has it showing to be delivered tomorrow. Hopefully this helps whoever asked for price.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@PatchOfWeeds That price is fantastic for 100lb of seed. If they can get their hands on Regenerate I may have them mix up my blend for me should I need some next year...

Or I might even just use your mix! Haha. I didn't realize Rowdy was rhizomatous otherwise there's a good chance I'd have used it.


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## PatchOfWeeds (Jul 5, 2020)

Hi Carlson, next year I'm looking forward to that new Bullseye tttf that's due out. I don't know where you live but in the Rutgers Ntep it looks very promising. I'm still not sure if the mix I'm using this year will be great but it will be better then what I have. I looked up the price for the 100# shipped it was 311.00 to be exact.


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## PatchOfWeeds (Jul 5, 2020)

I should add that Rowdy was not on my list but that was suggested by Hogan, so that was a last minute call.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

My special mix from Hogan just arrived today. $198 including shipping.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> My special mix from Hogan just arrived today. $198 including shipping.


Great price there too! When's seed-down?


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@Carlson Soil temp here today is 84°... I'm targeting the week of 9/14.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Sampler pots were at 3" today. Trimmed them down to 2".


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Front yard full reno with this blend today (5 DAG)


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Quick updates on the four samplers.
Regenerate

Rhizing Moon

Titanium LS

Valkyrie LS


All four have been cut once so far and no ferts used - no significant discernible differences yet. All are quite dark and fine-bladed. Regenerate is slightly thicker than the others, but I chalk that up to my seeding.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Front yard full reno has been mowed once and got it's first 0.25#N/k urea treatment today.



I'm very pleased with how full it came in. I really can't wait to get the striper out there after a couple more mows.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

@Carlson Looking great! How many days since seed was put down?


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> @Carlson Looking great! How many days since seed was put down?


Yesterday was 2 weeks from seed down. The full reno out front came in much faster than the overseed/fix areas did out back - not sure why.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

And here we have a prime example of why you don't use starter fertilizer on an overseed...


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Did a haircut and put the samplers out in the sun. I'm thinking about putting a single prill of urea in each pot...

I think at this point I can say the regenerate is the darkest by a small margin, and the rhizing moon is probably the densest - or at least is filling out more quickly than the others. The regenerate was the most densly-seeded pot, but the RM appears to have caught up and surpassed it already.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Carlson said:


> Did a haircut and put the samplers out in the sun. I'm thinking about putting a single prill of urea in each pot...
> 
> I think at this point I can say the regenerate is the darkest by a small margin, and the rhizing moon is probably the densest - or at least is filling out more quickly than the others. The regenerate was the most densly-seeded pot, but the RM appears to have caught up and surpassed it already.


Looks great. I would dissolve some urea and water them.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

uts said:


> Looks great. I would dissolve some urea and water them.


Do you happen to know if the 46-0-0 urea you typically find at a farm supply store disperses easily in water?


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Usually does, might be some residue in it. You can pass.it through a coffee filter since the amount you will be using is small.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Sweet! Just dissolved 4 prills in about a cup of water and gave each one 1/4cup (the pots are pretty small).

Small pots resulted in a bit of runoff out the bottom, so I'll leave them in the sun for a couple more hours to wick up the rest.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

I took a really hard look at these today and I think I can see a *very* minor difference at this point. In order from most darkest to least darkest (because they're all dark):
Regenerate:

Titanium:

Rhizing Moon:

Valkyrie:

I went and had a look at the 2016 NTEP data after ordering these and found the result consistent with their data. Regenerate @ 7.1, Titanium & RM @ 7.0, and Valkyrie @ 6.9.
The leaf texture also seems to get nominally wider going down the line, too.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I really really like Regenerate. I think I would have a tough time picking between it and RM for a monostand.

In the back section of my backyard the KBG is not coming up well because it's hard for me to keep it watered for weeks. I'm thinking later in Sept if it's still pretty bare I might throw down the 10 lbs of RM I have leftover and shoot for a mini mono back there.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

bf7 said:


> I really really like Regenerate. I think I would have a tough time picking between it and RM for a monostand.
> 
> In the back section of my backyard the KBG is not coming up well because it's hard for me to keep it watered for weeks. I'm thinking later in Sept if it's still pretty bare I might throw down the 10 lbs of RM I have leftover and shoot for a mini mono back there.


The only thing regenerate lacks is rhizomes - but it tillers pretty quickly so no big loss IMO. Top-rating in the northeast is a plus for me, too. (Or at least it's not billed as rhizomatous... the NTEP data for rhizomes seemed to show that it *is, rhizomatous...)

Even if the area is kinda thin I'm sure the RM would blend nicely with your KBG.... I'm even finding my pure fescue yard is enjoying getting mowed at 1.75" repeatedly, so I'd wager it could tolerate a reel mower.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

I am a KYB guy....BUT thats some Real Nice Fescue you have there.

Impressed



stacik84 said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> > stacik84 said:
> ...


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

WOW. excellent turf there..........
Impressed.



Carlson said:


> I took a really hard look at these today and I think I can see a *very* minor difference at this point. In order from most darkest to least darkest (because they're all dark):
> Regenerate:
> 
> Titanium:
> ...


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Density comparison from above.

Regenerate / RM on top
Titanium / Valkyrie on bottom

Regenerate and RM are both much denser than the othet two. Is a "duostand" a thing? Lol


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

Nice test


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

So I've been ignoring the little planter pots for the last couple weeks and they are pretty much toast now, but the blend in the front yard is looking amazing if I may say so myself...


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## Mmcgrouty (Sep 21, 2020)

Looks amazing


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## 01Bullitt (Aug 31, 2020)

Nice dark green color!


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

That's pretty nice for 5 weeks. Is the only fert you did .25lbN? I saw that a few posts ago.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

That was the only fert I had done aside from spraying GreenPop when I seeded. I've fertilized it twice this season at this point.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

how is it holding up?

pics would be nice too....thanks.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Holding up very well! Aside from a tenacity mishap out back and some fungus pressure out front (from the brutal summer we are having) it is still quite thick and green.

I'll take some pics this evening after I get a chance to mow and when the sun angle is photo-friendly. &#128077;


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

Carlson said:


> Holding up very well! Aside from a tenacity mishap out back and some fungus pressure out front (from the brutal summer we are having) it is still quite thick and green.
> 
> I'll take some pics this evening after I get a chance to mow and when the sun angle is photo-friendly. 👍


Looking forward to seeing pics! I picked up 100lbs of Rhizing Moon for my back yard and 75lbs of Titan for my front yard overseed projects that are coming up next month. I hope my results are half as good as yours!


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

Thats great, ill check in later. Im in NJ, and its been Brutally Hot and another 5 days of it--97f!

kbg holding up--some went to sleep on edges.....but Im going to bomb the crap out of it in a few weeks with Nitro.

I got some fescue in spots-from previous seeding, curiously the fescue doesnt hold up as well as KBG in this sand barge here....but that rhizing looks deep dark green.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Fair warning it's actually five fescues now! Added Rowdy doing a bit of overseeding in the spring.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Alrighty update time.

Front yard:
Mostly looking good.

Hardest hit by fungus where my house creates afternoon shade. That said, it doesn't look like the fungus truly killed everything - just nuked the leaves. There's green coming back in.



Back yard:
Also looking pretty good overall. I would say 90% of the lawn is thick like the second photo shows.


Got a few areas that checked out and/or died from heat stress though.

Also have quite a bit of spurge out back. Fortunately I need to overseed some thin areas and am planning a blanket tenacity app - should clear the spurge pretty easily.

May try to get one more pic of the front to really show the color once the sun goes down a little more.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

Looks good. I'm happy to know I'm not experiencing lawn death by heat stress alone, but the lawn looks like it held up superbly given the wacky weather we've had here in MA. What are you planning on using for the fungus, if anything?


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@thin_concrete I've been switching off between propiconazole liquid @ 2oz/k and heritage G (azoxystrobin) at 2-3lb/k - they have done a fine job.

The bigger issue is that between the first dose of propi and the first dose of azoxy I waited about 6 weeks when I should have done 3. (I was spending weekends building a chicken coop for the Mrs). Had some pythium (I believe) get a foothold in that gap and haven't fully stopped it yet. I just did dose #2 of propi over the weekend and may just go over the hard-hit areas with a second pass to make it a curative dose.

No matter! When I fix up the back I can throw a bit of extra seed up front if anything is really bare.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

I've been alternating between Azoxy and Prop too but I think I was way too late to prevent the damage I got. Lesson learned for next year though.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

looks good. real good.

cool weather comes, can hit it with strong fert and all that fungus will grow out, and thicken up too.

congrads


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

thin_concrete said:


> I've been alternating between Azoxy and Prop too but I think I was way too late to prevent the damage I got. Lesson learned for next year though.


Yeah last year's and this year's weather have definitely required starting fungicide early and going late. I had to overseed in the spring because I didn't do a late enough app last fall.

I might experiment with brewing some home-made compost tea next year and pick a test patch to just use that over the season.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

JERSEY said:


> looks good. real good.
> 
> cool weather comes, can hit it with strong fert and all that fungus will grow out, and thicken up too.
> 
> congrads


Thank you! I'm pretty pleased considering how rough the heat has been.

Already made the 3-day labor day weekend into a 5-day at work - gonna fert up and seed up some spots then. We will be looking really good come October!


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Realized the fungus I have been fighting is pythium blight, which ppz does not treat. With the 95-degree temps and insane humidity it is running wild right now.

Ordered some fosetyl-al and will get that down as soon as it arrives. Might order some extra heritage, too, in case the heat returns again. I may make heritage and fosetyl be my rotation going forward.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

i dont get fungus with KBG.....but that fungus is something fescue gets I see.

Pete-gci sprayed milk and it worked. you tube it


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

JERSEY said:


> i dont get fungus with KBG.....but that fungus is something fescue gets I see.
> 
> Pete-gci sprayed milk and it worked. you tube it


Jealous! I wish overseeding KBG wasn't profoundly difficult haha.

The fact that I have so much shade out front and that's the biggest issue. I have a few oak trees that I am seriously considering cutting down - working the "improve the veggie garden" angle with the Mrs now.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

dont be jealous....kbg has its issues too....but another angle people use is to pound nitro when it cools and grow out fungus and crap.

kbg isnt hard, its just slowww...and I mean slow..the sprout and pout is the slow part. I Love it.

you have nice turf sir.


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