# First post! Beginning the project of reviving my lawn



## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

Hey guys, so I've been lurking around the site for some time, reading the cool season lawn guides and many assorted threads and topics. Now that I feel like I have a baseline knowledge, I think I know what the right questions are to ask, and hopefully be able to contribute.

I'll try to keep this short, but forgive me as it will still likely end up wordy.

SO. I live in Port Hope, Ontario, Canada. Back lawn is a full sun 2500 sq ft. mix of KBG, PRG, and some various fescues. This is from overseeding in a panic 2 years ago before I decided lawns were the hobby for me. Front lawn is a mostly densely shaded 1500 sq ft mix of chewing fescue, creeping red fescue, PRG, KBG.

Neither front or rear lawns are irrigated. In the 3 years I've owned this house, I've never used any US only products, or license required products (tenacity, prodiamine, propiconazole etc.). Last year, I got my hands on some Ortho Killex. Blanket application on front and rear, cleared everything up quite nicely. This spring, both lawns were looking the best they ever had. I'm having trouble getting the front to thicken up, but the back was coming along very nicely.







I was very happy with the progress. After cruising the forum for a while, my standard has been raised by a massive amount, and so I have much reading to do. Anyway. In late April, then again early June (wet intro to summer) I applied some 18-18-18 fert to both lawns at .75lb/ksqft. Growth was good. Colour was good. Come july, I began having some brown patches. I assumed they were due to heat stress and beginning of dormancy, as it was only the areas full time blasted by sun that were ground zero. Working tons of hours and two kids at home under 2 years old, I didn't have much time to investigate too thoroughly. This was the beginning of the incredibly regrettable neglect.

Fast forward to now. My lawn is an absolute disaster. I'm having trouble determining what is from disease/fungus and what is possibly grubs, or something I'm not aware of.





So, I've overseeded with speare seed (kbg, PRG, creeping red fescue) and topped the entire lawn with a fine layer of sifted peat moss. Its been watered plenty, and I'm trying to win my lawn back.
Does this look like a familiar issue? I'm very new to identifying fungus and disease so I'm trying to learn. I've read the ID thread too.

I just got my hands on propiconazole, tenacity, and prodiamine. None have been used yet as I'm getting confident with my new sprayer first. Any recommendations?

again, sorry for the novel.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I think looking at the pictures it looks like a lawn that was drought stressed and not watered enough in the heat of summer. Maybe there was some fungus mixed in because the lawn was stressed and it contributed to the current damage.

Two questions. One, when did you overseed and two, you mentioned you put down triple 18 fertilizer at .75lb ksqft. Is that how much product you put down or total npk you put down?


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I think looking at the pictures it looks like a lawn that was drought stressed and not watered enough in the heat of summer. Maybe there was some fungus mixed in because the lawn was stressed and it contributed to the current damage.
> 
> Two questions. One, when did you overseed and two, you mentioned you put down triple 18 fertilizer at .75lb ksqft. Is that how much product you put down or total npk you put down?


It was stressed for sure. I was watering infrequently and not paying attention as to how much I was putting down.. it was just a bit of a desperate attempt to keep it alive.

I overseeded August 30. A touch later than intended. The pictures of the destruction were taken yesterday. 
Sorry, should have been more clear. That was 0.75lb NPK. The total actual product weight was 10.4lb on back lawn, and 6.5lb on the front.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Good luck with the over seed I'm sure it will come out fine if you keep it moist. Read up on a good fungus program and implement it next season. See if you can purchase grub ex and apply next spring also a pre emergent. If you don't have a sprinkler system I would set up your sprinkler night before as soon as you wake up in the morning turn it on and set the timer on your phone for 40 mins and go have your coffee shut it off when timer buzzing. This is easy and it should help get you a decent lawn


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Hey! WELCOME! :thumbup:



PerennialRyeglass said:


> …In late April, then again early June (wet intro to summer) I applied some 18-18-18 fert to both lawns at .75lb/ksqft. … Come july, I began having some brown patches. ….Any recommendations?


I know (I learned THE HARD WAY!) if I apply ANY nitrogen after March I'm GAR-RON-TEED fungal disease outbreak(s) … I'd draw a hard-line on your calendar from now on and resist all temptation at using any nitrogen after that date …



PerennialRyeglass said:


> again, sorry for the novel.


More info is better than less! :thumbup:


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

At this point you will need to keep the overseed moist (water 3 times a day for a short period of time) and try and get as good of a coverage as you can going into the winter.

Are you seeing much germination so far? A few weeks after germination you can start dropping some nitrogen. Preferably 46-0-0 urea. Or the 18-18-18 if you can't find urea. Peavy mart sells it but I believe the closest one to Port Hope is in Bowmanville.

There should be enough time for you to get a couple applications in before avg first front date.


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

M32075 said:


> Good luck with the over seed I'm sure it will come out fine if you keep it moist. Read up on a good fungus program and implement it next season. See if you can purchase grub ex and apply next spring also a pre emergent. If you don't have a sprinkler system I would set up your sprinkler night before as soon as you wake up in the morning turn it on and set the timer on your phone for 40 mins and go have your coffee shut it off when timer buzzing. This is easy and it should help get you a decent lawn


In Canada, or at least Ontario, grub ex is prohibited. We can get Scott's grub b gone, but from what I've read it's a waste of money. It's active ingredient is Bacillus thuringiensis. Seedworld will ship it to me though. I spent the day reading about grub control and which active ingredients for what time of year and what application so I've come up with either grub ex or amdro quick kill. From what I read from Michigan State university though, it's active Ingredients (bifenthrin, zeta-Cypermethrin) are apparently ineffective on grubs, and are more targeted to above ground insects. So, I'll have to get my hands on some grub ex.

I've been putting down about 1/4" of water in the morning (5am) and about the same in the afternoon (4pm). I've been trying not to soak it too late at night. Current air temps here have been 70-75⁰F day and 60-70 at night for the last week, and coming week. I'll keep at it for another week or so. Is it too late in the year for a dose of propiconazole? I've seen people saying wait 60 days after seeding.. is that an absolute or just a general rule of thumb?


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> At this point you will need to keep the overseed moist (water 3 times a day for a short period of time) and try and get as good of a coverage as you can going into the winter.
> 
> Are you seeing much germination so far? A few weeks after germination you can start dropping some nitrogen. Preferably 46-0-0 urea. Or the 18-18-18 if you can't find urea. Peavy mart sells it but I believe the closest one to Port Hope is in Bowmanville.
> 
> There should be enough time for you to get a couple applications in before avg first front date.


There has been some germination. Not a massive amount but it's starting to poke up. I'm hoping the recent short but violent downpours didn't wash my seed away. I'll look into Peavy Mart. I've never heard of them but I'll see what I can find. I'm working in bowmanville so I'll check it out. Sounds like you must be pretty close to me eh?

Edit: I had no idea TSC is now Peavy Mart.


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

PerennialRyeglass said:


> I've been putting down about 1/4" of water in the morning (5am) and about the same in the afternoon (4pm). I've been trying not to soak it too late at night. Current air temps here have been 70-75⁰F day and 60-70 at night for the last week, and coming week. I'll keep at it for another week or so. Is it too late in the year for a dose of propiconazole? I've seen people saying wait 60 days after seeding.. is that an absolute or just a general rule of thumb?


For initial watering of seedlings, this sounds like way too much water. 1/2" of water a day is likely way more than you need. You just want to keep the seed/top layer of soil moist, not wet or saturated. You could likely push you first watering back to 8 or 9am or so, add another around noon, and then again at 4pm, but limit all of them to only 5-10 minutes or so. (This is just a general suggestion, not knowing exactly what kind of irrigation you're using and your day to day weather)


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

Fraust said:


> PerennialRyeglass said:
> 
> 
> > I've been putting down about 1/4" of water in the morning (5am) and about the same in the afternoon (4pm). I've been trying not to soak it too late at night. Current air temps here have been 70-75⁰F day and 60-70 at night for the last week, and coming week. I'll keep at it for another week or so. Is it too late in the year for a dose of propiconazole? I've seen people saying wait 60 days after seeding.. is that an absolute or just a general rule of thumb?
> ...


I'll dial back the watering. I've been careful not to make anything soggy, and haven't put down enough at once to have any sort of puddles. I don't have a sprinkler timer yet.. still trying to decide on one. I'll certainly tone it down though. I hope I didn't wreck it all from overwatering. Historically I've seemed to under water new seed, so while I had the week off I guess I got a little over enthusiastic with it while I had the time


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

When I said water 40 mins in the morning I meant for next season I'm sorry if I confused you. For now with your over seed try your best to just keep it moist during the day I run my oscillating sprinkler a few times as necessary but I'm home during the day to about 2pm to monitor


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

M32075 said:


> When I said water 40 mins in the morning I meant for next season I'm sorry if I confused you. For now with your over seed try your best to just keep it moist during the day I run my oscillating sprinkler a few times as necessary but I'm home during the day to about 2pm to monitor


I gotcha. I'll keep at it as consistently as I can. I'll start looking into sprinkler timers for next year. I'd there any sense in doing a dose of propiconazole say, right after the last mow of the season? Will that help with very early spring or Is it a waste of time and I'll just plan an early spring application?

Here's a closer view of what the dead spots look like. Many of the areas pull right up.. no roots left at all. I still have not found any indication of grubs, or insects in general although there seems to be a massive amount of crickets this year. I've heard they can damage turf? I'll dig up some spots for a better inspection tomorrow.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

440mag said:


> Hey! WELCOME! :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Weather in Ontario is much different than NC. We still have snow in March and sometimes into April.


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

Just a little update here. Everything seems to be filling in. Of course its still early, but most of the super bare spots have solid growth. I went around and tossed a bit more seed on the spots that got washed out. Put down 0.25lb N/1000 of urea last night... threw on the head lamp and got 'er down at about 9:30 just before the rain started.

Honestly, first time using urea. I've got lots to learn and have been doing a pile of reading. Thanks for the suggestion!

Here's how we're looking so far:













The more I read, the more I want to do a full renovation. I think I may actually tackle that next year. By then, I should know and understand enough to confidently go for it. One thing I've got myself caught up on is grass type. Now, I don't have a proper irrigation system, but I'll likely get a timer and build my own system next year. We'll see. The back lawn is 100% full sun all day. I have it in my head that I want a KBG mono lawn... but I've been seeing a lot of people seem to end up mixing TTTF or PRG in. Is there a reason for this or is it just personal preference? I understand the difference in germination times.. but why do some people mix one vs the other vs mono? I haven't been able to come across a "scientific" reason; more so its just what people seem to want.

I'd love to renovate the front lawn too. It faces south, majority is heavily shaded for probably 10 hrs/day. Right now, its dense, horribly matted fine fescue in the shade, and a patchy combination of PRG and KBG where the sun hits. Its a mess. If I was to hit the front lawn eventually with glyphosate for renovation, Is there any risk of killing my/my neighbours tree? Any recommendations on types or specific cultivars that would work well in an area like this?

I know it's a ton of questions and so much is preference. I'm sifting through threads as much as I can here but having a bit of trouble finding journals/info from people in the same area with the same situations. I'm pretty new when it comes to forums.

EDIT: forgot to add picture of front lawn.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Harts said:


> Weather in Ontario is much different than NC. We still have snow in March and sometimes into April.


Oh yes, I know / imagine it is! :lol:

That said, isn't nitrogen feeding in June (as OP mentioned right before fungus appeared) inviting the likelihood of fungal issues?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

440mag said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > Weather in Ontario is much different than NC. We still have snow in March and sometimes into April.
> ...


Nitrogen apps in June aren't a terrible time. Ideal conditions for disease don't typically present until mid July or so.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

:thumbup:


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

Harts said:


> 440mag said:
> 
> 
> > Harts said:
> ...


Why is it that nitrogen boosts disease or fungus impact? I thought for the most part, forcing too growth would be a good thing. I thought you could "grow and mow" (bag) the impacted area away. Is this entirely wrong? Is it one of those "in a perfect world" situations?

If anyone happens to have links to studies saved, I'd love to read those too.


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

By the way, here's an update. Been hitting it weekly with 0.25lb N urea (granular). It's coming in pretty good. What's strange to me is, this is the first time I've used speare seeds, and also the most vicious POA infiltration I've ever had. Anyone else have this issue with their seed or is it purely coincidence?

I missed the window to put down preM. I just got a backpack sprayer and didn't get a chance to practice with it in time. Boo.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

PerennialRyeglass said:


> Harts said:
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> > 440mag said:
> ...


Like any disease, sometims you feed it, other times you starve it. Yes, there is turf disease that you can feed N to help it grow out. But there are others where nitrogen makes the situation worse. Off hand I can't give you list


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

PerennialRyeglass said:


> If anyone happens to have links to studies saved, I'd love to read those too.


Here's one I always have at my fingertips …

Hint: use the "*Find on Page*" (or any other term-search tool) using the term "_nitrogen_" - the term "_nitrogen_" shows up 138 (!) times and often references how nitrogen, at certain times of season, "_can enhance the activity of diseases such as brown patch and Pythium blight and may have other negative physiological effects on cool-season turfgrasses._"

(There are also numerous references to where nitrogen, applied at the right times, increases turf "vitality" consequently inhibiting some fungal diseases. But re-reading your initial post I don't think those instances are what you were dealing with … )

*Chemical Control of Turfgrass Diseases 2020*: http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agcomm/pubs/PPA/PPA1/PPA1.pdf

Here is another (actually, there are a dozen or more similar references via Purdue University): 
*Turfgrass Disease Profiles*: https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/bp/bp-124-w.pdf 
(* - See first paragraph, Page 8)

PS - your lawn looks positively stunning, btw! :thumbup:


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## PerennialRyeglass (Sep 9, 2021)

440mag said:


> PerennialRyeglass said:
> 
> 
> > If anyone happens to have links to studies saved, I'd love to read those too.
> ...


Awesome, thanks!

Thanks, but I have to admit it's a bit of an illusion. I have a ton of poa and some clover that has popped up, and in the back 1/3 by the shed Is thin. Still quite a ways to go. Lots of reading to do.

I have an arborist coming this week to have a peek at thinning and pruning the maple on my front lawn. Hopefully that'll help get some sun to the thin spots out front. I know this thread is kind of all over the place but, while I'm thinking of it.. I've read dicamba is a systematic herbicide. I've been using killex (2,4d, dicamba) on my front lawn. After reading that I immediately stopped using it as the study said it can kill shallow rooting trees, such as my Norway maple. 
So, does it make sense to use tenacity as the main post emergent in the front yard? I'm not really worried about wasting an expensive product as the entire front lawn is 1500sq ft. I know I need to read more about mesotrione and what it can do.. but any suggestions?


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

The over seed came out nice your patience paid off. Weeds and clover you can deal with next spring that's a easy one. POA is another issue that's a lot tougher. The problem with it is it germinates the exact time you want to over seed so a pre M is not a option. I'm thinking tenacity a few weeks before seed down should work with a follow up application hopefully someone with more knowledge can direct you. POA is probably the only problem grass I don't have. Good thing about POA short rooted doesn't survive the dog days of summer unless you water constantly and shade area.


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