# Maintaining KBG or PRG at 1"



## LIgrass

I'm considering a backyard reno. I already have a mostly Bewitched monostand with other grasses on the outskirts. The main reason I want to do this is to level out the back and try to maintain KBG (will be Bewitched) or PRG (SS9000 blend) as low as possible. It's going to take some drastic changes to get everything level. I don't know how much of the BW will survive it so I might just start over from scratch.

As of right now I can't mow lower than 2" without getting close to scalping. I've never tried 1.5" but it will definitely scalp several areas down to the soil at that height.

My main question is how do you guys maintain it at 1"? I know wardconnor and pete1313 both have experience with this, but I've seen other members (from the other forum) mowing KBG sub 1" and you never see them after June. That makes me think their lawns get decimated over the summer. I have very sandy soil. It's common for people to water 3-4x a week here over summer. Would I need to water every day or close to it? And syringe more often? Also regarding fungicides..what are the main diseases you deal with at those heights? This question is for anybody with cool season grasses, particularly KBG and/or PRG maintained at 1" or lower. Thanks.


----------



## wardconnor

I have a reply for you. I'll reply tomorrow. I love the kbg prg mix. It's beautiful.


----------



## Pete1313

I personally don't think that maintaining KBG/PRG at 1" is as tough as some make it out to be. It is done all across the world in soccer pitches, baseball fields, etc. at 1" and lower. Sure they have crews that maintain it, better soils, irrigation, and budget, but you don't see any of those fields getting decimated. It does take the right equipment, and some knowledge.

In regards to scalping. A good powered reel mower (one with a full width front roller and rear roller/drum) will scalp less than a rotory. This is due to the way the rollers will hug and follow the terrain. My yard has lumps and bumps and hills, but I haven't seen any scalping when cutting at 7/8". In comparison, I cannot cut lower than 2.25" with the lawn tractor(54" rotary deck). When I tried, it scalped a few hills down to bare soil. Also, KBG can be leveled by topdressing with sand just like a warm season lawn, just not as aggressively.

As far as maintaining it, cutting at 1" or less has the potential of putting the lawn under more stress, but not if maintained properly. Make sure you mow often enough so you don't cut more than 1/3rd of the blade off, water enough, aerate, use a PGR, try and encourage the roots to grow as deep as possible since close mowing reduces root mass, and maybe have a preventative fungicide plan. That is pretty much all I do. Try and not let the grass get stressed.

For watering, what I have done in the past on Bewitched and currently doing on my Northern Mix (at least until I kill it) is water at 80% of ET every 3-4 days. But that was on a silt loam at my old property and on a clay loam currently.

For preventative fungicides, the only thing I have sprayed in the past was serenade. Although I am in northern Illinois so disease pressure may be more or less depending on your location. I believe that cutting short really helps with alot of the foliar diseases as it allows the canopy to dry out better. Cutting shorter can make the grass more susceptible to the soil diseases however. This is due to the root mass being potentially less. Anything you can do to try and increase root mass will help. Summer patch is one disease I would pay attention to if cutting shorter. Being in northern IL summer patch is not much of a problem, but if it is in your area I would consider looking into a plan that included Heritage and Companion.

Ward will chime in later as I'm sure there are some points I missed. Cutting shorter does take alittle more effort then cutting at 3", but once you get up close and see and feel close mowed KBG, i dont think you will ever go back!


----------



## GrassDaddy

I use a manual reel mower and mow the back daily, cuz I can. The crazy thing is it takes off a decent amount each time and it is getting super thick.

The lawn is very bumpy but the manual reel handles it fine. I will be posting all year long because I want to see what happens


----------



## LIgrass

Thanks for the replies so far. Grassdaddy, I've seen you mention this which got me more interested.

Pete, I wasn't aware the difference in HOC could be that drastic with a reel vs rotary. Does it have to have a front roller to be able to get that low or will any reel allow me to do that? I found a cheap scotts manual reel on craigslist that I'm looking to pickup to get the experiment going (but it doesn't appear to have any rollers). Also found a fiskars & craftsman but they are a bit far from me. I only have around 1.5k backyard so I don't mind using a manual reel for now.

Maybe I can get away with just a 1/3rd partial reno on the really bumpy areas. Any tips on what kind of sand to ask for or will any do if I pick up a yard or 2? How much sand per K did you end up needing at your old BW monostand?


----------



## LIgrass

Here's the one I found for $40 just a town over from me. I don't want to pester the guy but he says barely used it and that's about it he knows. Does this look like it would do?


----------



## Pete1313

It doesn't need a full front roller to go low, but a full front and rear roller will help reduce scalping a bumpy yard. If it has individual wheels and one wheel goes into a low spot, it will cause the reel to drop down and scalp. But if it has a full roller, it will float over that low spot. Also if you mow over a high spot the full roller will ride up and over it to minimize scalping. I truly believe you will have a hard time scalping with a "greens type" reel on most lawns when cutting at 1".

Mason sand is what you want, or Topdressing sand if you can get it. .375 cubic yards will do roughly 1000 sq ft to a 1/8" depth. .750 cubic yards will do 1/4" depth. It will take multiple Topdressings to get it where you want. I did 3/8" deep (or just over 1 cu yd/k) on my bewitched and it handled it but was too aggressive. Had me worried for a couple weeks.


----------



## Pete1313

LIgrass said:


> Here's the one I found for $40 just a town over from me. I don't want to pester the guy but he says barely used it and that's about it he knows. Does this look like it would do?


It should cut that low, and for $40 might be ok to start out with. But like I said, it will scalp more. And also will not stripe as well as a full roller greens type reel mower


----------



## GrassDaddy

Thats basically what I have.. it doesnt stripe. But I might add a roller to it hehe


----------



## LIgrass

Pete1313 said:


> It doesn't need a full front roller to go low, but a full front and rear roller will help reduce scalping a bumpy yard. If it has individual wheels and one wheel goes into a low spot, it will cause the reel to drop down and scalp. But if it has a full roller, it will float over that low spot. Also if you mow over a high spot the full roller will ride up and over it to minimize scalping. I truly believe you will have a hard time scalping with a "greens type" reel on most lawns when cutting at 1".
> 
> Mason sand is what you want, or Topdressing sand if you can get it. .375 cubic yards will do roughly 1000 sq ft to a 1/8" depth. .750 cubic yards will do 1/4" depth. It will take multiple Topdressings to get it where you want. I did 3/8" deep (or just over 1 cu yd/k) on my bewitched and it handled it but was too aggressive. Had me worried for a couple weeks.


Excellent info again. Thanks!

What I think I'm gonna do is start at 1.5" and see if anything gets scalped with the reel. Work my way down and take it from there to see where major leveling is needed.

I ended up picking up that reel. It turns out it's the 20" scotts classic reel. Wasn't sure from the pic. It looked in good shape. The only issue is there's a little bit of rust on the outer part of two of the blades. The cutting surface itself had some caked on gunk but no rust that I saw. It's a little hard to get started from rest, but once it's in motion it's a piece of cake. Everything else looks to be in good working order. I cut the back in close to the same time it takes to do it with my Honda. It's actually a really nice clean cut, very even at 2" despite the yard being a little over 3" to start. Very enjoyable except for the tight starts.

Did I make a bad buy because of the rust on 2 of the blades and is that what's probably causing the hard starting? or can I clean it up a little (scrub the rust off with a brush, clean the bearings, WD-40? etc) to get this moving a little faster from rest. I also saw there's a way to adjust how much contact the blades make with the cutting surface to make it easier to spin.


----------



## Pete1313

You are going to want to lube up any bearings, adjust the bedknife and then backlap it to get the cutting surfaces cleaned up. I'm not exactly sure on that model how to get it spinning in reverse. I can probably figure it out with some closer pics. But maybe start a new thread in the equipment section and see if anyone has more experience with it.

Sounds like a good plan to slowly take it down, observe how it goes and level as needed. You already have bewitched which can tolerate a low HOC. If it were me, I wouldn't want to start over from scratch if I already had good grass. I would try and level out what I currently have as well.


----------



## Pete1313

Info on backlapping reels

http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_back_lap_reels/


----------



## wardconnor

This is a long post. Get a drink and sit down.

First things first. I love to talk grass because it is so rewarding for me working in the lawn and seeing progress. I want to write this up because someone asked and I please ask that if what I say about how I personally care for my lawn does not suit your fancy then please refrain from any negative comment. Whenever people talk cool season grasses and low cutting heights for some reason the hate/criticism starts. I guess haters are gonna hate. I have yet to see such critical/negative comments on TLF which is why I like it here. There is not only 1 way to make your lawn look awesome. I do not write up this post to boast.

Let me preface by saying that I am definitely a lawn care RULE BREAKER. I always break the 1/3rd rule and I never measure anything I put down other than when I measure the PGR and Tricloplyr. Everything else I put down I like to look at as it comes out spreader and say "that looks about right." If it does not look right I adjust. I do not measure or weigh my fert. I know .. I know... I am wasting product and money and could damage my lawn but this system works for me.

I cut my lawn at .625 (5/8) inch with a Toro Greens Master 1000. I have KBG and PRG

*Water*

Maintaining at 1 inch or less definitely requires more water. I find that if I am not watering a lot then the grass dries out very quickly and starts to go dormant brownish. I have a well and am not on the city water source, which is very expensive, so I only have to pay to pump the water I use. I water a lot but have never measured my water usage formally. I just water until it looks about right and is good and wet. My wife hates that I water this way but I like it because it makes the lawn green ( I really need to try FAS). I have terrible clay soil under the sod. I am pretty sure that my watering habits are doing the lawn a dis service by watering frequently vs infrequently. What I am doing works so I do not plan on changing it. I find that when I go a few days without watering the lawn starts to look dry. I live in a very dry climate. Utah is a desert state so we have a lot of clear sunny days and long stretches with no rain. You pretty much have to irrigate if you expect grass to grow. The humidity level is very low. We only get like 3 to 5 days each summer in the 90s. I am at 6000 feet above sea level so it's a cold climate. I generally water at least 4 times per week. I have an underground sprinkling system and have large rotors that generally water for about 45 minutes per zone. My neighbors and passer byers love the look of my lawn. For some reason they proceed to make jokes about how my sprinklers run a lot. I do not have any fungus issues or diseases related to water. Not yet at least. I do not use fungicide or bacteria like serenade. Maybe I should try that. I personally think the lawn looks better when its damp or slightly wet.

I maintained my lawn at .75 all summer in 2016 and it stayed green all summer as long as it was watered enough. ATY was a short lived experience for me as I joined around August 2016. I quit them in March 2017. I did not post any of the summer 2016 pictures being that I joined later summer and laid low to figure out the wizard before I post.

Here is a picture of my lawn taken on July 9, 2016. It was not scorched.










August 7, 2016 not dried up










Here is a picture of it taken on August 4th 2016 after 10 days on vacation with little to no water and also no mowing. The water really makes a difference in this dry climate. The water is critical for me.










*Effort*

Mowing at 1 inch or under takes a lot more effort for sure. You have to mow a lot more often that you would when you mow tall at around 3 inches. I really like the look of a 3-inch lawn but like the look or 2 or less way more. I have always been a low-cut lawn kind of guy, say around 2 inches, but decided to reel low about 2 years ago.

Before I bought a reel mower I used to cut as low as my rotary mower would allow. I mowed for a few months this low with the rotary. This did result in scalping like Pete mentioned. This is due to the mower sitting on 4 points on the grass rather than 2 wider 20+ inch rollers. It also left yellow rings in the lawn from where the blades torn the grass tips. The rollers on a reel mower tend to bridge the gap over depressions or high spots. The rollers have several functions in my eyes. They roll the grass for striping, help avoid scalping on uneven surfaces, and help flatten the lawn over time. The greens mower is heavy and it flattens out the bumps and high spots over time like a steam roller only a smaller lighter version. Mowing when the soils is damp also helps to flatten it out.

In order to reel cut low you need to scrub out that heavy thatch layer or crown. If you cut low for the first time or more you are going to cut into that crown spongy layer at first. This layer is like a spongy thatch layer and is hard to describe. This material needs to be removed and thinned out. My lawn had a bunch of this stuff when I decided to cut low. I used a power rake seeder machine with a delta reel blade to cut this out. I went over it in several directions and pulled out a lot of dead old material. Keep in mind at this point my lawn was only 2 years old grown from seed. I vacuumed this removed thatch up with my rotary mower. Removing this significantly thinned out the lawn. You can also accomplish this with a manual thatch rake. If you are wanting to go low you will need to thin your lawn out. These are all my opinions so take it for what it is worth.

After I thinned the lawn out I over seeded with PRG heavy. Going with the PRG was my best move IMO in going low. It added a beautiful look to the KBG. I would do it all over if I had to do it again. If I knew then what I know now I would started with this mix when I seeded.

Opening up the canopy will invite weed seeds but as you cut the grass low it will start to grow out and not up so the roots spread and the grass knits together and gets extremely thick. Don't worry that it is too thin. With fertilizer and mowing it will thicken up quickly.

I figure I work in my yard 20+ hours per week. I know this is insane. I enjoy it.

*Leveling*

I was anal before I seeded and tried to make it as flat as possible before I put the seed down. It looked good but was not as good as I would have liked it. I also had some settling issues from the irrigation trenches. Because of this settling, and my OCD, I have leveled with sand about 3 times. The results have been amazing. You can level with sand but you need to be careful not to smother the cool season grasses or it will die and will not grow through. Level with small layers of sand. The trick to leveling for a KBG lawn is to cut the lawn as short as you feel comfortable with. Then you can spread your sand in a thin layer. Because you cannot go heavy on the sand layer you have to do it in multiple rounds of leveling. Leveling with sand is truly is a multi-season affair. You will want to buy a fine sand but not powdery sand. Do not get sand with small pebbles because it will kill your reel. I think I found 3mm sand. As mentioned in other threads, masons sand will work well. Buy the sand in bulk and not from big box stores. Use a drag mat and push broom to work sand into the canopy. Let the sand dry out before you use the broom. Leveling with sand on cool season grasses can be done and is worth the effort you put into it.

My suggestion to anyone renovating or starting from scratch is to drag drag drag before you seed. You cannot spend too much time getting it flat prior to seeding. When you think its "good enough" then drag some more. Dragging with a motorized something (lawn tractor, 4-wheeler) will make your life so much easier when leveling.

Picture of the leveling on September 3rd 2016










Picture after leveling on October 8th 2016.










*Mower*

Get a GOOD reel mower. They are more money but are well worth the cost if you are serious about going reel low. The greens mowers are ideal because of the weight and the rollers. They flatten the lawn over time and help with scalping because of the rollers. The high-speed gas-powered reels make all the difference in the world. They spin fast and are designed to accomplish just exactly what we are trying to achieve. You will need to learn about reel to bed knife adjustment. This is crucial for a good cut. Every time I mow I check the reel to bed knife adjustment. I adjust it every time so that it cuts paper easily. Do not mow through sand, rocks, sticks, dog poo, or general debris. Leaves are okay but sand will shred the reel and dull the blades quickly.

*Enjoy*

Sit back and enjoy mowing. Expect a lot of complements and people amazed at how it looks. They will all want to know how you did it. I tell people it takes TIME. I also tell people to start by bagging (bagging controversy I know) and mowing low. Use PGR and sit back and enjoy the beauty.

Picture taken May 27, 2017


----------



## Spammage

Terrific write-up and beautiful lawn. There are no wizards here to judge you. I'm sure your cool season brethren from the Northeast would like to have your sub 10% humidity, but only until they got the water bill.

My father in Amarillo, TX has done a portion of his yard with KBG/PR/TTTF mix where he's previously only had TTTF. He's not going to be cutting low, but they usually have about 20 days over 100 there per year. I've tried to talk him into a triplex mower for his 24000 sf, but he just isn't interested. He also has a well. After we get into Summer and can see how the KBG and PR react to the heat, I may push the triplex thought more.


----------



## Pete1313

Awesome write-up Ward! :thumbsup: although we may disagree on our watering and fertilizing habits, like you said "There is not only 1 way to make your lawn look awesome." Excellent info on needing to get the thatch/crown layer thinned out when going lower. Especially if you were previously cutting at a higher HOC.


----------



## j4c11

Would you recommend giving the grass a few years to mature before going to a sub 1" cut or can it be done first year?


----------



## Pete1313

It can be done right out of the gate at renovation time. I'm in the process of a renovation right now and plan on cutting it short from the start. As Ward mentioned about the "crown spongy layer", by cutting it short as soon as you can, it will eliminate the crowns and stemmy parts from growing higher in the canopy and train them to stay closer to the soil.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Awesome write up Conner!!!&#128077;


----------



## wardconnor

Pete1313 said:


> Awesome write-up Ward! :thumbsup: although we may disagree on our watering and fertilizing habits, like you said "There is not only 1 way to make your lawn look awesome." Excellent info on needing to get the thatch/crown layer thinned out when going lower. Especially if you were previously cutting at a higher HOC.


Pete

I welcome your comments because you are aware of what it takes to have a lower HOC. Thanks for your feedback. We can disagree just fine and dandy.



j4c11 said:


> Would you recommend giving the grass a few years to mature before going to a sub 1" cut or can it be done first year?


Yeah just like Pete said... go for it right away. People that grow back yard greens that I followed before I found ATY TLF here start mowing crazy low right away.

Training the grass is the key. The sooner the better I would say.


----------



## j4c11

wardconnor said:


> Yeah just like Pete said... go for it right away. People that grow back yard greens that I followed before I found ATY TLF here start mowing crazy low right away.
> 
> Training the grass is the key. The sooner the better I would say.


Thank you to both you and Pete for the info.

I'm at 3" right now so I'd have some work to do. Have you ever pulled a plug out of the lawn? I'm very curious as to how badly the low cut affects the roots. If you still have 3"-4" roots I think I could work with that, even through NC summers.


----------



## LIgrass

Ward, what a well-written, clear and concise write-up..with pictures too!! :mrgreen: You and pete..great job with the replies. :thumbup: The thatch layer tidbit is something I had no clue about. I'm going to inspect mine tonight to see what's going on and post some follow up questions soon.


----------



## GrassDaddy

Wow!!! It looks amazing!


----------



## Redtenchu

+1 to all the comments above, awesome work guys.


----------



## Redtenchu

I really enjoyed reading this article about backlapping reels and general reel maintenance, thanks for sharing Pete!



Pete1313 said:


> Info on backlapping reels
> 
> http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_back_lap_reels/


----------



## Pete1313

Redtenchu said:


> I really enjoyed reading this article about backlapping reels and general reel maintenance, thanks for sharing Pete!
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Info on backlapping reels
> 
> http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_back_lap_reels/
Click to expand...

 :thumbsup:


----------



## LIgrass

So I cleaned up this scotts reel and lowered the settings to 1"-2". It works much smoother. It was mostly surface rust on the blades that came off easy. It looks like new now. I really believe this was only used a few times, it was just stored improperly. The guy was probably trying to use it to cut 4"+ tall fescue and gave up after a couple tries and bought a gas mower.

I dropped the HOC to 1.5" and did the whole back yard. The only issue I have now is it gets stuck on the really low spots (instead of scalping and plowing through dirt like the Honda would). This happens in about 25% of the yard. So I'm going to have to do leveling now...still trying to figure out a plan as I think my wife wants a patio back there eventually. 
The Bewitched looks like it's handling it fine right now even in 90 degree weather (besides the color hits). I'm watering every morning. The PRG seems to love these low HOCs with no issues at all.


----------



## wardconnor

The PRG handles it much better. My front lawn is the mix of KBG and PRG and it handles it great. The back which I do not show on the forum much is all KBG and does not handle it as well. Leveling will help a bunch for you. It just requires more work.


----------



## ericgautier

LIgrass said:


> So I cleaned up this scotts reel and lowered the settings to 1"-2". It works much smoother. It was mostly surface rust on the blades that came off easy. It looks like new now. I really believe this was only used a few times, it was just stored improperly. The guy was probably trying to use it to cut 4"+ tall fescue and gave up after a couple tries and bought a gas mower.
> 
> I dropped the HOC to 1.5" and did the whole back yard. The only issue I have now is it gets stuck on the really low spots (instead of scalping and plowing through dirt like the Honda would). This happens in about 25% of the yard. So I'm going to have to do leveling now...still trying to figure out a plan as I think my wife wants a patio back there eventually.
> The Bewitched looks like it's handling it fine right now even in 90 degree weather (besides the color hits). I'm watering every morning. The PRG seems to love these low HOCs with no issues at all.


Thanks for the update. Would love to see some pictures.

BTW, when are you ready.. there's a place by me that has a bunch of GM1000s. :mrgreen:


----------



## LIgrass

ericgautier said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I cleaned up this scotts reel and lowered the settings to 1"-2". It works much smoother. It was mostly surface rust on the blades that came off easy. It looks like new now. I really believe this was only used a few times, it was just stored improperly. The guy was probably trying to use it to cut 4"+ tall fescue and gave up after a couple tries and bought a gas mower.
> 
> I dropped the HOC to 1.5" and did the whole back yard. The only issue I have now is it gets stuck on the really low spots (instead of scalping and plowing through dirt like the Honda would). This happens in about 25% of the yard. So I'm going to have to do leveling now...still trying to figure out a plan as I think my wife wants a patio back there eventually.
> The Bewitched looks like it's handling it fine right now even in 90 degree weather (besides the color hits). I'm watering every morning. The PRG seems to love these low HOCs with no issues at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the update. Would love to see some pictures.
> 
> BTW, when are you ready.. there's a place by me that has a bunch of GM1000s. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Oh man you're gonna get me into trouble, haha. Does it come with an explanation pamphlet for the wife? :mrgreen:


----------



## LIgrass

I'm at the lowest setting the scotts reel will go which is supposed to be 1". Although, when I lift the grass up it's only cut at around 1.5". The lateral growth of Bewitched makes it tough to get it down to a true 1" cut. That, and I'm assuming the grass thickness itself adds some height to the cut (is this where the thatch layer also comes into play?). I'm seeing some disease pressure probably from watering daily and stress on the grass (mostly leaf spot and a little rust that seems to be hiding down low and fades away the next day after cutting). I'm planning on hitting this with some N, Oceangro and PGR to help it recover.

http://imgur.com/a/6Qi7B

Some info on this yard: It's basically low input/low chemical usage. Renovated in 2014 to 100% BW. I have added other grasses in sections that were previously shrubs and dirt. The big circle of poa/kbg is where the pool goes every summer. I'm leaving that alone for now. Believe it or not some of the moonlight and blueberry I planted there regrew last fall after being under a pool for 2 months. In front of the soccer net is Moonlight that transitions to BW (Moonlight looks so dark blue/green right now but fades in the summer). Deep in the corner in front of the chairs is "Sideways" PRG (supposed to be a spreading PRG but I'm not a fan of it). Then I have SS9000 PRG in 2 other repair sections that are not visible in the shot. I also had a 6 foot Summer patch of death that mostly filled in about 6 feet in front of the sandy area where the sprinkler head is. I'll keep updating. Gotta figure out how to go even lower. I am really liking the "surface" it's creating, despite the KBG looking like crap right now from these HOC drops.


----------



## LIgrass

Almost forgot to mention I also have a little Prosperity patch going by my garage that I'm putting the reel to. Prosperity might be the most compact cultivar I've ever seen. Looks pretty nice. 
To try to get this to a true 1" cut (with the scotts reel), would I be able to possibly add a front roller to push the grass up for cutting? I'm assuming leveling would also help get it lower and thatch removal as well? I actually don't mind using this on the entire backyard. I get a little workout and there's something very soothing about the snipping action. Only thing I hate is when it gouges the turf.


----------



## Pete1313

I think it is looking good, especially for just starting to go low. Keep us updated. :thumbsup: take some close up pics of the reel especially where the front wheels attach and how you adjust the cut height and I'll see if there is a way to get it lower.


----------



## LIgrass

Thanks Pete. It's this exact mower and procedure here (mine's in the lowest hole). I'm thinking maybe drill another lower hole to get 1/2" - 1 1/2"? lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zWNTOPAysk


----------



## Pete1313

Looks like modifying/drilling is all you will be able to do on the front wheel. Are the rear wheels adjustable as well?


----------



## J_nick

Pete1313 said:


> Looks like modifying/drilling is all you will be able to do on the front wheel. Are the rear wheels adjustable as well?


Yes the back wheels have notchs for adjusting the height also.

The problem I see with mine when on the lowest setting is that the angles are wrong. The reel sits 1/2"ish above the ground while the bedknife is at 1". While the reel is suppose to be below the bedknife to gather the grass I don't believe it's should be that much lower. A fix would be to lower the rear wheels but after looking at it that would be much easier said than done.


----------



## ericgautier

LI, too bad you do not have the Fiskars.. I remember someone from "the other site" modding it to add a roller on the front.








I wonder if you can add a roller on the rear as well. Hmmm...


----------



## LIgrass

I'll see if I can adjust the rear wheels. Eric, I think I can add a roller on the rear for sure but the front will be tough. Gonna try to drill new notches to lower the wheels some more first. With your fiskars, are you down to the lowest possible setting around your playset? If so, can you measure and see what the true HOC is at that setting? GrassDaddy, I believe you have the same mower...can you also check the actual HOC?


----------



## ericgautier

LIgrass said:


> With your fiskars, are you down to the lowest possible setting around your playset? If so, can you measure and see what the true HOC is at that setting?


I will measure HOC later this afternoon for you.

Currently, I am at the second lowest notch. Which according to Fiskars, is 1.38". When I inquired about HOC adjustments, Fiskars told me:

"1: 0.91
2: 1.38
3: 1.85
4: 2.32
5: 2.77
6: 3.20
7: 3.60
8: 3.95

Also keep in mind, that is the distance from the bedknife to the line tangent to both wheels. Because the wheels ride on top of the grass, the actual length of the cut blades measured to the dirt will be longer. depending on the species of grass, length of grass and terrain.
"
So, the second notch setting could be 1.5" and the lowest 1". What I can do is try "smaller" wheels or roller in the front to lower HOC more.

Something like this could work for me --- https://www.ultimationinc.com/replacement-parts/buy-rollers/discount-conveyor-roller-1-9-dia-15/?gclid=CjwKEAjw4IjKBRDr6p752cCUm3kSJAC-eqRtfWAXxdU2qYAS787iePo6Yn2xaN6j88vgLKd7acAylxoCPbbw_wcB but how to I "screw" the ends though. Or this with the round bar - http://www.ebay.com/itm/38mm-DIA-Stainless-Steel-Heavy-Duty-Assembly-Line-Conveyor-Roller-200-700mm/152489464794?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3De399899722c241e4b88cb8bd4866e24d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162448651649 then just thread the end.

Thoughts?


----------



## J_nick

LIgrass said:


> I'll see if I can adjust the rear wheels. Eric, I think I can add a roller on the rear for sure but the front will be tough. Gonna try to drill new notches to lower the wheels some more first. With your fiskars, are you down to the lowest possible setting around your playset? If so, can you measure and see what the true HOC is at that setting? GrassDaddy, I believe you have the same mower...can you also check the actual HOC?


I would work on the rear wheels before trying to lower the front even more. Maybe take the rear wheels off and make some kind of sled instead. The heavier you can make the sleds the better as it will keep the back from hopping giving a washboard appearance.

I fear lowering the front even more the reel will be to far down in relation to the bedknife. Lowering the back will give a better relationship for the reel/bedknife. Plus the back wheels is what moves the bedknife up and down more compared to the front.


----------



## Redtenchu

ericgautier said:


> Something like this could work for me --- https://www.ultimationinc.com/replacement-parts/buy-rollers/discount-conveyor-roller-1-9-dia-15/?gclid=CjwKEAjw4IjKBRDr6p752cCUm3kSJAC-eqRtfWAXxdU2qYAS787iePo6Yn2xaN6j88vgLKd7acAylxoCPbbw_wcB but how to I "screw" the ends though. Or this with the round bar - http://www.ebay.com/itm/38mm-DIA-Stainless-Steel-Heavy-Duty-Assembly-Line-Conveyor-Roller-200-700mm/152489464794?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3De399899722c241e4b88cb8bd4866e24d%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D6%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D162448651649 then just thread the end.
> 
> Thoughts?


Check out how my buddy Ammodud made a roller for his Mclane. The front caster wheels of the Mclane and Fiskars look a lot a like, maybe it'll give you some ideas!


----------



## ericgautier

Redtenchu said:


> Check out how my buddy Ammodud made a roller for his Mclane. The front caster wheels of the Mclane and Fiskars look a lot a like, maybe it'll give you some ideas!


Red, thanks! It definitely has given me some ideas. :thumbup:


----------



## LIgrass

I went out in the back and measured several areas to see how much growth it had in 2 days. There wasn't much at all. I actually measured some scalped areas as low as 1.125 with the "average" blade somewhere around 1.25-1.6". This makes me think that it really was cutting close to 1"...lowering the wheels more might not do much. Adding a roller is what I'm going to need to get those lateral blades. Or maybe double cutting in perpendicular directions.

Redtenchu, thanks for the ideas. I'm going to see if I can put something together.



J_nick said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll see if I can adjust the rear wheels. Eric, I think I can add a roller on the rear for sure but the front will be tough. Gonna try to drill new notches to lower the wheels some more first. With your fiskars, are you down to the lowest possible setting around your playset? If so, can you measure and see what the true HOC is at that setting? GrassDaddy, I believe you have the same mower...can you also check the actual HOC?
> 
> 
> 
> I would work on the rear wheels before trying to lower the front even more. Maybe take the rear wheels off and make some kind of sled instead. The heavier you can make the sleds the better as it will keep the back from hopping giving a washboard appearance.
> 
> I fear lowering the front even more the reel will be to far down in relation to the bedknife. Lowering the back will give a better relationship for the reel/bedknife. Plus the back wheels is what moves the bedknife up and down more compared to the front.
Click to expand...

The back wheels are already in the lowest part of the bracket holding the axle so I can't really do much with them unless I remove them and add a lower bracket (or sled like you suggested). I did notice a little bit of washboarding in some spots.

I'm a little confused on the second part of your post. I took some pics of mine. The bedknife and reel always remain in the same position, no? It's the back wheels as you said that move it higher and lower. Check out the pics


http://imgur.com/J1YjW


----------



## J_nick

In relation to each other they stay in the same position. The angle they are to the ground changes. I did a quick drawing to try to illustrate what I'm trying to say.



It would benefit more from the rear wheels going lower to change the angle of the reel/bedknife getting the angle more parallel to the ground.

Right now at least on mine the reel sits about 1/2" above the ground while the bedknife is at around 1". Now think about trying to lower it even farther. You could never get close to 1/2" HOC because the reel would be in the dirt while the bedknife (where the HOC is set) would be up at 1/2". Leveling out the angle of the reel/bedknife would also make it easier to push as the reel wouldn't have to go through as much of the canopy.


----------



## LIgrass

Gotcha :thumbup: ok. I understand now. Still kind of new to this and it's been a long week but that makes complete sense. I just ran out and measured mine and have about the same result .6" and a little over 1" at the bedknife


----------



## J_nick

Do you happen to have any kids? I just stole an old pair of disgaurded training wheels and bingo. I also moved the front to the middle position to level out the reel/bedknife position better (still not the best but way, way better). The HOC is just over an inch probably close to 1 1/8". Just need to pick up the right length of bolt to finish it. I took it out for a test drive and leveling out the bedknife did reduce the drag on the mower a noticeable amount.


----------



## LIgrass

J_nick said:


> Do you happen to have any kids? I just stole an old pair of disgaurded training wheels and bingo. I also moved the front to the middle position to level out the reel/bedknife position better (still not the best but way, way better). The HOC is just over an inch probably close to 1 1/8". Just need to pick up the right length of bolt to finish it. I took it out for a test drive and leveling out the bedknife did reduce the drag on the mower a noticeable amount.


YES! I was just cleaning up my mess of a garage and remember tossing an old training wheel in a toy bin. Just have to find the other one. Great thinking!!


----------



## J_nick

Also adding some weight to the back by the rear wheels will help with the washboarding. It's caused by the rear wheels hopping. I'd find that other wheel and go from there.


----------



## Pete1313

J_nick to the rescue! :thumbsup: that setup should work much better.



LIgrass said:


> Still kind of new to this and it's been a long week but that makes complete sense.


https://cdn2.toro.com/en/-/media/Files/Toro/Commercial/education-technical-references/service-training-guides/09168sl.ashx?la=en&hash=1B9806DDA6F56976B14AC6FE1DF3DB6A816B4A1E 
LIgrass, here is a good read on some real mower terminology and basics for when you have time. Page 24 explains the BCD and bedknife attitude that J_nick was talking about.


----------



## wardconnor

J_nick said:


> In relation to each other they stay in the same position. The angle they are to the ground changes. I did a quick drawing to try to illustrate what I'm trying to say.
> 
> 
> 
> It would benefit more from the rear wheels going lower to change the angle of the reel/bedknife getting the angle more parallel to the ground.
> 
> Right now at least on mine the reel sits about 1/2" above the ground while the bedknife is at around 1". Now think about trying to lower it even farther. You could never get close to 1/2" HOC because the reel would be in the dirt while the bedknife (where the HOC is set) would be up at 1/2". Leveling out the angle of the reel/bedknife would also make it easier to push as the reel wouldn't have to go through as much of the canopy.


Can we call this the "angle of attack?"


----------



## LIgrass

J_nick said:


> Also adding some weight to the back by the rear wheels will help with the washboarding. It's caused by the rear wheels hopping. I'd find that other wheel and go from there.


Would there be a way add a hook and PVC pipe to that back bar (like the toro striper)? It would add weight and stripe it too. Bedtime now, I'll find that other wheel tomorrow and test it out.

Pete, thanks for the link :thumbup: Will definitely be checking that out.


----------



## dfw_pilot

wardconnor said:


> Can we call this the "angle of attack?"


That term suits a pilot just fine.


----------



## ericgautier

LIgrass said:


> I went out in the back and measured several areas to see how much growth it had in 2 days. There wasn't much at all. I actually measured some scalped areas as low as 1.125 with the "average" blade somewhere around 1.25-1.6". This makes me think that it really was cutting close to 1"...lowering the wheels more might not do much. Adding a roller is what I'm going to need to get those lateral blades. Or maybe double cutting in perpendicular directions.


LI, this is what I am seeing also on mine. I want/need to level the area to take full advantage. The kids LOVE the feel of it. It is very tempting to "expand" it. LOL. Right now I am reel mowing it every 2 days or so when the kids are playing outside.



This was taken the other day. Will it ever be as "green" as the surrounding grass that is cut higher?


----------



## Pete1313

ericgautier said:


> This was taken the other day. Will it ever be as "green" as the surrounding grass that is cut higher?


Hard to say. Maybe it needs to adjust to the lower height, maybe it is the TTTF that is contributing to the even lighter color, or is there some lighter colored crowns/stems showing that may need to be mechanically thinned out and/or topdressed over? Bewitched when cut short is still really dark.


----------



## g-man

This looks temping. Im mowing at 3in based on the wisdom to mow high in the summer and I hate the look. I have irrigation and don't mind paying more for water. How does the short cut handles the high heat (90+ full sun no clouds?)?


----------



## wardconnor

g-man said:


> This looks temping. Im mowing at 3in based on the wisdom to mow high in the summer and I hate the look. I have irrigation and don't mind paying more for water. How does the short cut handles the high heat (90+ full sun no clouds?)?


This is something that I can not comment on. My climate has only a few days in the 90s.

One thing I do know though is that as long as I give my lawn enough water it does fine all summer long. I can tell when the lawn needs water by looking at it. This is probably the same no matter what your height of cut is.

I am sure you would be fine mowing short in hot weather. The sports fields and golf courses mow low so I'm betting you'll be fine.

The kicker is to just start going low. Enough talk just do it. It will look rough a little at first but wit time it gets better, much better. Maybe try when temp start cooling off a bit. Cool season grasses grow better in cooler weather.


----------



## ericgautier

Pete1313 said:


> Hard to say. Maybe it needs to adjust to the lower height, maybe it is the TTTF that is contributing to the even lighter color, or is there some lighter colored crowns/stems showing that may need to be mechanically thinned out and/or topdressed over? Bewitched when cut short is still really dark.


You might be right. It might just need some time to adjust.

Here's a close up shot of the area..



Plenty of green for sure. Hopefully the KBG takes over.


----------



## Pete1313

g-man said:


> This looks temping. Im mowing at 3in based on the wisdom to mow high in the summer and I hate the look. I have irrigation and don't mind paying more for water. How does the short cut handles the high heat (90+ full sun no clouds?)?


I wonder if cutting at 3+ inches on cool season grass has been the wisdom because it saves on water, has maybe less weed pressure(less herbicides), you mow less often so you don't use as much gas?? Either way, I'm not knocking long turf, alot of them look amazing! But it is just not my thing. As far as it handling the heat, it probably depends on the cultivar. Busch stadium in St. Louis does alright with KBG cut short and it gets fairly warm there. Also, NTEP Schedule A is KBG maintained between .4-.6" HOC if you want to look over the performance of different cultivars.


----------



## Pete1313

wardconnor said:


> One thing I do know though is that as long as I give my lawn enough water it does fine all summer long. I can tell when the lawn needs water by looking at it. This is probably the same no matter what your height of cut is.
> 
> I am sure you would be fine mowing short in hot weather. The sports fields and golf courses mow low so I'm betting you'll be fine.
> 
> The kicker is to just start going low. Enough talk just do it. It will look rough a little at first but wit time it gets better, much better. Maybe try when temp start cooling off a bit. Cool season grasses grow better in cooler weather.


+1 :thumbsup:



ericgautier said:


> You might be right. It might just need some time to adjust.
> 
> Here's a close up shot of the area..
> 
> 
> 
> Plenty of green for sure. Hopefully the KBG takes over.


Looks green in that pic! And I bet the KBG does dominate. I would keep at it as is, and if the color still isn't what you are looking for, you can get aggressive on it in the fall and try and thin out the crown/stem layer and encourage it to start growing closer


----------



## LIgrass

Too much going on this weekend..I didn't even have a chance to mess with the wheels or the bar but I was able to reel mow the back again just before dark. It's definitely browner (brown cast across many sections) than I'd like. I probably took it down a little faster from 3" to 1" than I should have. I feel like there's an accumulation of clippings that are adding to this. What I probably should've done was take it down to 2" with my honda and bagged it first.

Anyway, I put down Oceangro at bag rate. Any other tips on how to get a faster recovery out of it? I'm almost thinking of bringing the reel up to 1.25"-1.5" just to let it reset with new growth before taking it down to 1" again (if that makes sense)?


----------



## LIgrass

ericgautier said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I went out in the back and measured several areas to see how much growth it had in 2 days. There wasn't much at all. I actually measured some scalped areas as low as 1.125 with the "average" blade somewhere around 1.25-1.6". This makes me think that it really was cutting close to 1"...lowering the wheels more might not do much. Adding a roller is what I'm going to need to get those lateral blades. Or maybe double cutting in perpendicular directions.
> 
> 
> 
> LI, this is what I am seeing also on mine. I want/need to level the area to take full advantage. The kids LOVE the feel of it. It is very tempting to "expand" it. LOL. Right now I am reel mowing it every 2 days or so when the kids are playing outside.
> 
> 
> 
> This was taken the other day. Will it ever be as "green" as the surrounding grass that is cut higher?
Click to expand...

It might take a while. Mine has a brown cast across it too. I shut the water off the last 3 days because it's been on and off misting and drizzly here (prime fungus weather) but it was pretty hot and sunny today. I put down oceangro and there should be nice rains coming through tomorrow that I'm hoping will speed up recovery.


----------



## Pete1313

LIgrass said:


> Anyway, I put down Oceangro at bag rate. Any other tips on how to get a faster recovery out of it? I'm almost thinking of bringing the reel up to 1.25"-1.5" just to let it reset with new growth before taking it down to 1" again (if that makes sense)?


First off, is the reel cutting cleanly? Check to make sure the reel cuts a strip of paper. What you are experiencing isn't just brown tips?

Raising the reel up a notch for a while should help with color. What you might be seeing is the crown/stem layer that is causing the brown cast. My guess is when going from 3" which had a longer stemmy area down to 1", you cut down into the stem layer and is why you see brown. Like Ward mentioned, you will eventually need to thin that layer out to reset the growing point of the plant. Scalping lower and then letting it grow back up would help this, renting a power rake or verticutter would probably be best, and I have seen the growing point reset after I aggressively topdressed with sand. Maybe raise it up a notch for now, and then around labor day get aggressively after that stem layer with the power rake/verticutter and then feed it some urea to fill back in.


----------



## ericgautier

LIgrass said:


> Anyway, I put down Oceangro at bag rate. Any other tips on how to get a faster recovery out of it? I'm almost thinking of bringing the reel up to 1.25"-1.5" just to let it reset with new growth before taking it down to 1" again (if that makes sense)?


I put down Urea (@1 lb/k) yesterday to help it recover faster.

My plans right now is to maintain it at 1.5" setting (second lowest) until Fall. Then start of Fall, drop it to the lowest setting, level it with sand to help "reset" the grass and be aggressive with Urea.

In the meantime I am sourcing parts for the conversion to a front roller.


----------



## LIgrass

Pete1313 said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, I put down Oceangro at bag rate. Any other tips on how to get a faster recovery out of it? I'm almost thinking of bringing the reel up to 1.25"-1.5" just to let it reset with new growth before taking it down to 1" again (if that makes sense)?
> 
> 
> 
> First off, is the reel cutting cleanly? Check to make sure the reel cuts a strip of paper. What you are experiencing isn't just brown tips?
> 
> Raising the reel up a notch for a while should help with color. What you might be seeing is the crown/stem layer that is causing the brown cast. My guess is when going from 3" which had a longer stemmy area down to 1", you cut down into the stem layer and is why you see brown. Like Ward mentioned, you will eventually need to thin that layer out to reset the growing point of the plant. Scalping lower and then letting it grow back up would help this, renting a power rake or verticutter would probably be best, and I have seen the growing point reset after I aggressively topdressed with sand. Maybe raise it up a notch for now, and then around labor day get aggressively after that stem layer with the power rake/verticutter and then feed it some urea to fill back in.
Click to expand...

It's entire blades that are brown not just the tips. I'm not seeing any frayed ends. It seems to be cutting fine in the middle and left side but the right side toward the end is not contacting the bedknife enough to cut the paper every time. I'm going to adjust that. I'll see how it does after these heavy rains come through tonight. I may go throw around some urea as well.


----------



## g-man

I noticed some fungus brewing in the back. Too many rains in the evening.

So I dropped the hoc from 3 to 2 1/8in and started in the far back. The mower was stalling too much. So I raised it to 2.5. it looks so good. I will keep dropping to get to 1.5


----------



## RockyMtnLawnNut

I am so glad I found this thread (and forum) with a Google search. I happened to be searching for how to maintain KBG at low mowing heights. This is something I've wanted to experiment with for awhile now, but due to the old mantra that you're supposed to mow high I've never tried it. I did a reno of both my front and back yards in 2011/2012 using advice from the ATY forum. Since then I've grown somewhat disenchanted with some of the attitude over there. I'd like to start with maybe a smaller section of my back yard to try this out. First, I need to obtain a reel mower. Does anybody have any experience with the push model (non powered)McClane mower? It appears to be well built, although no roller. If this is something I really enjoy I may consider eventually upgrading to a used greens mower. Right now my goal would be to take it down and maintain at 1.5" to see if I like that. I do have compact varieties of KBG so I know I should be able to get them there. For five years now they've been mowed around 3-3.5" though. This fall I may try and thin it a little as well. Any advice would be much appreciated!


----------



## LIgrass

RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> I am so glad I found this thread (and forum) with a Google search. I happened to be searching for how to maintain KBG at low mowing heights. This is something I've wanted to experiment with for awhile now, but due to the old mantra that you're supposed to mow high I've never tried it. I did a reno of both my front and back yards in 2011/2012 using advice from the ATY forum. Since then I've grown somewhat disenchanted with some of the attitude over there. I'd like to start with maybe a smaller section of my back yard to try this out. First, I need to obtain a reel mower. Does anybody have any experience with the push model (non powered)McClane mower? It appears to be well built, although no roller. If this is something I really enjoy I may consider eventually upgrading to a used greens mower. Right now my goal would be to take it down and maintain at 1.5" to see if I like that. I do have compact varieties of KBG so I know I should be able to get them there. For five years now they've been mowed around 3-3.5" though. This fall I may try and thin it a little as well. Any advice would be much appreciated!


Welcome to TLF. My advice would be what Pete said earlier to bag mow down to 2.5" then 2" (or as low as you can go) with a rotary mower..then below that start with the reel. I learned this the hard way. Take it down gradually. I was so eager to reel mow and get it down as short as possible while it wasn't too hot out that I started too high (from 3"+ down to 2" in one shot). I think that might've stressed the grass more than if I did it with my HRX. Reels are better at 'snipping' small amounts, not so much taking off a lot at one time on 3"+ grass.

btw, Moonlight looks GORGEOUS at around 1". For whatever reason it handled the HOC drops much better than Bewitched.


----------



## RockyMtnLawnNut

Great advice. Yeah I think while I'm deciding on a mower I'll try to gradually take the grass down to 2" or so with the rotary while keeping the blade really well sharpened. Then when fall comes I'll be ready to go. I'm in no hurry as this is something I've been contemplating awhile now. If I were to overseed with some PRG, do I absolutely need to use a PGR?


----------



## LIgrass

Can someone direct me to a decent lapping compound (prefer box store but online is fine)?



RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> Great advice. Yeah I think while I'm deciding on a mower I'll try to gradually take the grass down to 2" or so with the rotary while keeping the blade really well sharpened. Then when fall comes I'll be ready to go. I'm in no hurry as this is something I've been contemplating awhile now. If I were to overseed with some PRG, do I absolutely need to use a PGR?


It really depends on the cultivars and your conditions. It seems to grow nice and steady in full sun or mostly sun. It grows faster in shade.


----------



## wardconnor

RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> ... If I were to overseed with some PRG, do I absolutely need to use a PGR?


No. This is exactly what I did. Did this about 2 years ago. I never used any PGR until about 1 month ago.

Start the whole process by very first cutting lower. Then remove a bunch of the thatch crown layer aggressively with a slice seeder machine, a manual thatch rake, or a power thatch rake. Get it nice and thin. Once you get it thinned out then over seed or level with sand. After sand I like to seed.

Until you aggressively get that layer out, the lower mowing with rotary will just keep giving it that yellow damaged look.

I mow mine low at times with the rotary when it gets away from me at like 1 inch and it looks fine because it's level flat and I don't have that thick thatch crown layer. I used to rotary mow regularly around 2 inch and decided to to go reel low. When I went low then I went through the process I explained above.

The most important thing of this whole process is that you actually do it rather than just thinking about doing it. It's all talk unless we do.


----------



## J_nick

LIgrass said:


> Can someone direct me to a decent lapping compound (prefer box store but online is fine)?


http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=59


----------



## g-man

Dropped the backyard to 2in. It took 2hrs to drop it from 2.5 to 2in. It is so dense that it stalled the engine multiple times. It is a bit brown in some areas, the same areas that looked like fungus was starting to cause trouble 2 weeks ago. I dropped milorganite and a bit of fungicide. I setup a 20min watering for tomorrow am to water it in.


----------



## LIgrass

I'm back to 1.5" and the lawn seems to be recovering nicely. It's back to mostly green again with just a few areas lagging. I'm not gonna lie, I was getting a little worried that I killed like 50% of the lawn. I came across a thread on the warm season forum where they say to go 2 notches below your final height and then back up, so by going a little too low too fast then back up I probably inadvertently did the right thing http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=508 . My yard looked like the 3rd post in that thread for the last 2 weeks or so. I may keep it here until mid-August and go back down to 1" again in quarter inch increments. And then try for lower from there after leveling and reel wheel adjustments.


----------



## Pete1313

LIgrass said:


> so by going a little too low too fast then back up I probably inadvertently did the right thing...
> ...I may keep it here until mid-August and go back down to 1" again in quarter inch increments. And then try for lower from there after leveling and reel wheel adjustments.


I agree. The lawn was used to being mowed at a higher HOC. The stems, crowns, and leaf growing points were all high in the canopy. The lawn has to transition to being cut short. A gradual, controlled scalp below intended HOC will help. Thinning out the stem/crown mass with a dethatcher will help. Also Topdressing will help by moving/covering the crowns and growing points and move them lower into the canopy.

Mid August would be a good time to resume taking it down and getting aggressive with it again. I did my scalp, sand level project on my old lawn on labor day weekend in 2015 and it recovered nicely going into winter.


----------



## wardconnor

LIgrass said:


> My main question is how do you guys maintain it at 1"? I know wardconnor and pete1313 both have experience with this, but I've seen other members (from the other forum) mowing KBG sub 1" and you never see them after June. That makes me think their lawns get decimated over the summer.


Hello Llgrass

I mowed last night and plan to mow tomorrow in prep for the 4th weekend. Here are the summer results. The lawn looks really nice and its been hot. Not crazy hot like high nineties but hotter especially for my area.

I am considering taking it down another notch tomorrow. Maybe like .65 or .625.

June 29, 2017


----------



## LIgrass

wardconnor said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> My main question is how do you guys maintain it at 1"? I know wardconnor and pete1313 both have experience with this, but I've seen other members (from the other forum) mowing KBG sub 1" and you never see them after June. That makes me think their lawns get decimated over the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Llgrass
> 
> I mowed last night and plan to mow tomorrow in prep for the 4th weekend. Here are the summer results. The lawn looks really nice and its been hot. Not crazy hot like high nineties but hotter especially for my area.
> 
> I am considering taking it down another notch tomorrow. Maybe like .65 or .625.
> 
> June 29, 2017
Click to expand...

Looking good, ward! I'm sticking with 1.5" for now. I'll be back to 1" in mid-August. Usually Summer Patch and other nasties come out to destroy stuff in my backyard around late July/early August. We'll see what happens this year. If I get hit bad at 1.5" I'm probably going to add PRG to my yard. Do you syringe the lawn at all when it gets above 85 or 90?


----------



## Ware

https://www.facebook.com/thelawnforum/posts/958825327592246


----------



## wardconnor

LIgrass said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> My main question is how do you guys maintain it at 1"? I know wardconnor and pete1313 both have experience with this, but I've seen other members (from the other forum) mowing KBG sub 1" and you never see them after June. That makes me think their lawns get decimated over the summer.
> 
> 
> 
> Hello Llgrass
> 
> I mowed last night and plan to mow tomorrow in prep for the 4th weekend. Here are the summer results. The lawn looks really nice and its been hot. Not crazy hot like high nineties but hotter especially for my area.
> 
> I am considering taking it down another notch tomorrow. Maybe like .65 or .625.
> 
> June 29, 2017
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looking good, ward! I'm sticking with 1.5" for now. I'll be back to 1" in mid-August. Usually Summer Patch and other nasties come out to destroy stuff in my backyard around late July/early August. We'll see what happens this year. If I get hit bad at 1.5" I'm probably going to add PRG to my yard. Do you syringe the lawn at all when it gets above 85 or 90?
Click to expand...

1.5" is a good place to hang out at when your transitioning or contemplating that jump to reel low. Keep at that. This is when I was hanging out for quite a while before I bought a reel.

I do not know what syringe is so I am guessing that I do not use it. I rarely get into the 90s around here. Here is a screen shot of what I am up against for the next week. Nothing really that bad. It is also a very dry low humidity climate here.

I love PRG


----------



## LIgrass

Wow, you have amazing weather...and dry too. That's some awesome grass growing weather, particularly those lows. We're about to get hot & muggy here (Hi 90/low70 with high humidity) it's a fungal paradise. 
Syringing is giving it a quick cycle (few mins) during the hottest part of the day to cool off the grass. You didn't mention in your writeup if you do that or not. Here is a syringing video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfV5_GzlkQU


----------



## g-man

I'm not sure of the source of the term syringing, but it is trying to take advantage of evaporative cooling. A bit of water is sprayed on the grass, when the sun evaporates it is has to cool the surface of the leaves.

While the video does show a drop in temperature after 3min, it doesn't show how long it lasts. 5min? 30min?


----------



## ericgautier

The circle that I'm maintaining @1.5" is as green as the 3" surrounding it now. The feel of the 1.5" is awesome. Not much more work.. just mowing it more often.


----------



## wardconnor

I like low cut turf. Good work


----------



## LIgrass

Nice Eric!


----------



## g-man

I have the yard at 2in and the far back at 1.5in. The 1.5 still needs to green up more. I'm not sure if I can keep up with mowing it. Maybe it is time for pgr.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I've always wondered why some of you cool season brethren don't use Bent grass in your lawns if you like it cut short? Just something I've always wondered as if I lived up North, it would be something I would consider. I do LOVE the direction you guys are going with your KBG and PRG mowed low, keep up the great work!!


----------



## wardconnor

Mightyquinn said:


> I've always wondered why some of you cool season brethren don't use Bent grass in your lawns if you like it cut short? Just something I've always wondered as if I lived up North, it would be something I would consider. I do LOVE the direction you guys are going with your KBG and PRG mowed low, keep up the great work!!


Soooo. I have thought a lot about this question and comment in that last 24 hours. I feel your question to be a loaded one.

This is the golden question of the year(s) for me. The number of times I have personally thought about this is not countable or trackable.

Overseed, do not overseed. Kill and seed or leave ***. I have weighed this out in my mind so many times.

I have researched online all this time about the the possibly of doing so. I have followed the backyard putting green forum. I have read and read what it takes to keep up the green/bent and the maintenance involved. I have read and read about the susceptibility to disease and the risks of losing large portions of my lawn. I have checked seed prices and have read and researched strategies to make it work and get it growing. I have weighed these all out in my mind several times.

My brother had a bent lawn in Vancouver WA. My uncle currently has about a 40k bent lawn in Kalispell MT who cuts it with a zero turn rotary at around 1.5 inch or so. These are both wet climates with a lot of rain and moisture. They have both told me the same things and that being that bent lawns are temperamental and finicky. They are very prone to disease. You could lose large portions your lawn easily due to disease.

The super seed store man Drew has/had a bent lawn.( read "lawnfreak1 comments deep down) In these comments on this forum he talks about all the work he puts into his bent lawn. The constant care and feeding or fungicides and ferts. The over seeding and aerating.

Bent lawns knit so tight together that the water can not penetrate through the thatch to get to the roots. The water will run off. This is a huge reason for all the aerating and top dressing of greens on courses. I am already having this problem a little with my lawn.

There are many reasons to try for a bent lawn. There are also reasons to stay away from a bent lawn. I think that if I were to change mid stream and put that much more time and money on top of what I already am (20 hrs min per week on landscape currently) my wife would lose it on me.

More fungicides (do not use them now), more sand, more equipment, more *TIME*...... more money. Bent is a much larger commitment in my eyes.

I like the *** PRG. It works well for me and is VERY forgiving. If you screw something up you can get it to recover fairly easily. I like being able to use the rotary if I need to and it gets away from me. (rotary is awesome for vacuuming up crap) With the KBG I am not totally committed to daily or very regular mowing. If it gets way out of hand I can always massacre the 1/3 rule and reign it back into line fairly easy without too much trouble. I am in a very dry hot desert climate that I do not know how will handle the bent. I am sure it would do just fine considering all the courses around me with bent greens.

Why doesn't the courses have bent fairways? Probably for the look

All things considered most of the uneducated (in terms of turf) people that come by my house and comment already think its golf course grass. Its working for well for me and I enjoy it so its likely that I will just keep going with what I have.

I do however have a few small patches of bent in my lawn. I am not sure how it got there. It looks bad. Not so bad to need chemical means but could spread way larger. I am thinking it might have been transported with my greens mower. The people I associate with that grind my reel and associate with him because he grinds their small mom and pop course reels tell me to irradiate and cut it out as quickly as possible. I dont know.

If the bent spreads quickly and to large areas I will go with it and see how it turns out. I also might nuke it with tenacity.

In the end if I had like 1500 ft or like 2000 ft or less I would definitely do a bent lawn. The fact that I have 20k changes things dramatically for me. I like having a large yard. Less neighbors.


----------



## Mightyquinn

You sure have put a lot of thought into that question I asked :lol:

I completely understand where you are coming from Connor and if you are happy with your lawn then why change to something else for. Also, having as much land as you do, it would become an issue with all the maintenance involved.

I only brought it up because I grew up in NorthEast Indiana and playing golf when I was younger, the nicer courses I would play all had Bent grass fairways and of course the greens were Bent also. I just remember how nice the fairways were because they were like carpet and made playing golf so much more enjoyable and easier to hit the ball. I think that is one reason I am drawn to Reel Low Bermuda for. :thumbup:

I think Bent grass is in the same category as the Mini Dwarf Bermuda's we have here in the South. It's a lot more upkeep and there are not a lot of people who have cared for it. I too have been on that Putting Greens Forum to see what I could learn too. At least with Bent grass you can buy it in seed form and it's relatively easy to get. With Mini Dwarf's you have to get Sprigs or Sod and they don't normally sell to homeowners, your best bet is to get some plugs from a local course that just aerated.


----------



## kolbasz

Interestingly, I have a kbg/prg lawn in the front. I had a similar case where it is what appears to be bent grass invading. I say invading because it is not supposed to be there. Does it look terrible? Nope, but walking over the lawn there is suddenly a thick dense patch or grass that is different. Right now I have gone the route of tenacity to rid myself of it. If it was the entire lawn it would not be out of place, but when it has a spotty existence it is most annoying.

Honestly, my biggest issue is that I have a hard time with identification. 85% of the lawn makes me happy, but then I walk over a spot that appears out of place, as though it doesnt belong. Sometimes I pull it, other times I leave it, it all depends how different it looks. The bent grass was surely out of place. Nimblewill is another that should not be there. It is a constant battle and I enjoy it, but sometimes I do get annoyed with it and wonder why we bother. So, this time around I figure a few applications of tenacity, some white spots and I will go from there.

Keep in mind I am at 3.5", not 1 :?


----------



## wardconnor

kolbasz said:


> Interestingly, I have a kbg/prg lawn in the front. I had a similar case where it is what appears to be bent grass invading. I say invading because it is not supposed to be there. Does it look terrible? Nope, but walking over the lawn there is suddenly a thick dense patch or grass that is different. Right now I have gone the route of tenacity to rid myself of it. If it was the entire lawn it would not be out of place, but when it has a spotty existence it is most annoying.
> 
> Honestly, my biggest issue is that I have a hard time with identification. 85% of the lawn makes me happy, but then I walk over a spot that appears out of place, as though it doesnt belong. Sometimes I pull it, other times I leave it, it all depends how different it looks. The bent grass was surely out of place. Nimblewill is another that should not be there. It is a constant battle and I enjoy it, but sometimes I do get annoyed with it and wonder why we bother. So, this time around I figure a few applications of tenacity, some white spots and I will go from there.
> 
> Keep in mind I am at 3.5", not 1 :?


I want to hear more about the bent and the tenacity. Please expound on this. Did it work on the bent? Several apps?

I do not own tenacity yet. I would like to buy some.... Its always a toss up teeter totter game I play with what to buy.

Tenacity...... FAS......Tenacity.....FAS....Another Eley hose reel...Triplex


----------



## GrassDaddy

The identification issue is why I killed everything and did KBG. Now if it looks off I kill it.


----------



## Pete1313

wardconnor said:


> ...Its always a toss up teeter totter game I play with what to buy.
> 
> Tenacity...... FAS......Tenacity.....FAS....Another Eley hose reel...*Triplex*


Triplex for the win!


----------



## kolbasz

wardconnor said:


> I want to hear more about the bent and the tenacity. Please expound on this. Did it work on the bent? Several apps?


Well, it was identified as bent, I have no idea... It is turning white at the moment, will try to get pictures


----------



## kolbasz

So this was said to be bent
https://imgur.com/6EEEoWr

After tenacity, it looks like

https://imgur.com/Bfvw7jD
https://imgur.com/YkwvAZZ
https://imgur.com/JS0urv8

Whether or not I'm doing any good, who knows. Maybe I'm just seen as the crazy neighbor and the results will be crap.

Going to hit it once more, then let it grown out.

And at some point hit the poa t with round up.

I think that's what this is anyway 
https://imgur.com/7adHksZ

Hijack over, carry on


----------



## wardconnor

Hijacking continues....

That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing those photos. I guess I need to get me some tenacity.

So hard for me to spray that and have to deal with white bleaching for the interim. Growing season is already short where I'm at. I guess marathon sprint concept applies.

Resume the regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Pete1313

Mightyquinn said:


> I've always wondered why some of you cool season brethren don't use Bent grass in your lawns if you like it cut short?





kolbasz said:


> http://imgur.com/JS0urv8


This is one reason why I wouldn't consider bent for my lawn. It would be a constant battle trying to keep my bent grass out of my neighbors lawns. I would have to spray my neighbors property line frequently with tenacity to keep it out.


----------



## wardconnor

Pete1313 said:


> This is one reason why I wouldn't consider bent for my lawn. It would be a constant battle trying to keep my bent grass out of my neighbors lawns. I would have to spray my neighbors property line frequently with tenacity to keep it out.


Your too nice. Call me mean but I'm not worrying about that. He doesn't seem too worried about his weed pit and my nice hobby lawn.

It's likely that he/some folks wouldn't even know the difference.


----------



## Pete1313

wardconnor said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is one reason why I wouldn't consider bent for my lawn. It would be a constant battle trying to keep my bent grass out of my neighbors lawns. I would have to spray my neighbors property line frequently with tenacity to keep it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Your too nice. Call me mean but I'm not worrying about that. He doesn't seem too worried about his weed pit and my nice hobby lawn.
> 
> It's likely that he/some folks wouldn't even know the difference.
Click to expand...

True, and in your situation i dont think your neighbor would notice. My one neighbor would probably though as he is out there every weekend putting down his stripes with his zero turn. He stops and asks me questions and seems more interested in lawn care then most homeowners. But besides him noticing or not, I would notice it in his lawn and drive me crazy every time I mowed the property line.


----------



## kolbasz

Yeah, I am not trying to keep it out of the neighbors yard, I am just trying to keep it out of mine. And since the neighbor thinks they are so freaking smart, if I did spray it, they would complain that I am killing their grass and that I am stupid and do not know what I am doing. ignorance...not to say I know what I am doing, but at least I am trying to keep things looking good, even if it means 3-4 weeks of bleached good grass.


----------



## Pete1313

kolbasz said:


> I am trying to keep things looking good, even if it means 3-4 weeks of bleached good grass.


Its worth it!


----------



## g-man

ha! This thread has taken a detour. :lol:

I'm loving this low mowing. The yard looks great and I'm not too worried with fungus after the +5in of rain this week. But, I havent mow in a week, so I'll be breaking the 1/3 rule.


----------



## Ware

GrassDaddy showed you guys some love this morning... :thumbup: :thumbup:

https://youtu.be/JTfV9hiwuYU


----------



## GrassDaddy

Hahaha well I found out yesturday it stripes with the checkmate kit on my honda


----------



## Mightyquinn

GrassDaddy said:


> Hahaha well I found out yesturday it stripes with the checkmate kit on my honda


I see a greens mower in your future :lol:

The seed has been planted and will germinate soon enough :thumbup:


----------



## wardconnor

Yo GD.. You should just try going lower and lower with the rotary in back. This is where I started out. I will look good if you don't end up scalping.

See what happens


----------



## g-man

The kid videobombing! Awesome!

What's the plan for the field of weed on the right side? A reno?


----------



## Mightyquinn

g-man said:


> The kid videobombing! Awesome!


My wife was laughing her butt off at the kid while I watched the video :lol: :thumbup:


----------



## GrassDaddy

wardconnor said:


> Yo GD.. You should just try going lower and lower with the rotary in back. This is where I started out. I will look good if you don't end up scalping.
> 
> See what happens


Yeah it scalped parts at 1.5 in so I will be using the reel from now on. I just needed to clean up some weed wacker debris and the kids left toys out so some area was too tall to reel


----------



## Pete1313

Nice video GrassDaddy! :thumbsup:



Mightyquinn said:


> I see a greens mower in your future :lol:
> 
> The seed has been planted and will germinate soon enough :thumbup:


Agreed,  . Also you can mow and stripe in one pass!


----------



## kolbasz

Wanted to follow up with current status of tenacity treated areas. As we see, said bad grass is dead, good turf stuck around and now I just have to rake out the crap.

https://imgur.com/a/cIYFD


----------



## wardconnor

Good work kolbasz


----------



## Michael303

kolbasz said:


> Wanted to follow up with current status of tenacity treated areas. As we see, said bad grass is dead, good turf stuck around and now I just have to rake out the crap.


Nice! I need to do this. I may have missed it earlier in the thread but what was your treatment schedule?


----------



## kolbasz

Tenacity 1x per week for 3 weeks


----------



## Michael303

Thanks. What application rate?


----------



## kolbasz

the standard marked on the syringe.
I think .5 teaspoon per gallon. I was spot spraying to I didnt factor product per sqft.

problem being I keep finding more and more....


----------



## kolbasz

wardconner, I mowed a section of my lawn to 1" this weekend, for the kids to hit golf balls. It is now very brown and this 10 sqft section stick out, but it was for the kids so I am OK with it. Point is, your very green grass still amazes me and while I joked with the wife about getting a greens mower, I know I could not be cutting every other day, so for now, I will keep my tiny patch of short brown grass and just admire yours


----------



## g-man

^ if you did a big change, it take a while to turn green. I have sections at 1.5in and it looked bad at first.


----------



## ericgautier

kolbasz said:


> I will keep my tiny patch of short brown grass and just admire yours


Feed it, water it, keep mowing it short and watch that short brown of grass turn into short green grass. :thumbup:


----------



## wardconnor

ericgautier said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will keep my tiny patch of short brown grass and just admire yours
> 
> 
> 
> Feed it, water it, keep mowing it short and watch that short brown of grass turn into short green grass. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Good work Kolbasz stick with it.... I agree with what Eric said. Inevitably with a rotary your going to get browning if your cutting into crown. Gotta thatch rake that stuff out.

You mentioned that you would not mow every other day. That's what I said when I got the bug... It's all an addiction. The greens mower is just the gateway drug.

I dare you to try leveling with sand. See if you can do it just once.


----------



## aug0211

Subscribed!

Had started my Bewitched reno on the second lowest HOC my mower will do (lower and it scalps)... just recently bumped it up but already regretting it. Looks like I'll be working back down &#128077;&#127996;


----------



## LIgrass

I had to bail on my backyard reel mowing this summer. I had widespread summer patch damage and pool water damage which were both exacerbated by the lower HOC. Trying to do this with acorns dropping was the final straw for me. My HRX doesn't suck them all up so I don't know how to deal with that in the future. If I have the time I may try it again starting early spring. I ended up overseeding the rest of my PRG blend into the backyard to give it some more disease resistance at these lower HOCs.


----------



## g-man

Someone posted about an acorn picking up device that they liked. I can't find the post.

I thought I had my mower at 2in most of the summer and fall. I dropped one notch and mowed 3 weeks ago. I scalped a few spots. I measured the hoc and it was 1 1/4 in on the rotary. Oops. I went back one notch and it was 1 3/4in. So I've been mowing since summer at 1 3/4in.

I want to get a reel mower. I'm still trying to decide which one. I like the 220e, but my wife will kill me if she finds out the cost.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

g-man said:


> Someone posted about an acorn picking up device that they liked. I can't find the post.


The device was the Nut Wizard. There's a similar product made by Garden Weasel, too.

The recommending post was by chrisben.

A purchase was made by vnephologist, who posted of his success with it.


----------



## J_nick

My parents use a similar tool for picking up pecans. It's definitely a back and time saver.


----------



## uts

Reviving an old topic I know but it has some great posts. Although i see a few journals with reel mowed cultivars, is there a place to look up how different cultivars do at different mowing heights. We def have some experience with bewitched and Everest thanks to the experienced members and we are getting a few people with BlueBank which I am really interested in. I also wanted to know about BlueNote which is rated highest for the NorthEast.


----------



## Zcape35

My grass has been responding great to the low cut from the time of first cut. Cultivars in signature.


----------



## uts

Zcape35 said:


> My grass has been responding great to the low cut from the time of first cut. Cultivars in signature.


Thank you. I actually found a few papers and a few blends by manufacturers stating their cultivars and found most newer varieties are recommended to be mowed between 0.5- 1.0".


----------



## Jacks_Designs

I took my lawn from 2.25" to 1.25" last week. Spring time I plan to do my first sand top dress. Can't wait!


----------



## kay7711226

Anyone here mowing sub 0.5" Tempted to take it down lower(visualizing sand levelling and a home made putting green)


----------



## SOLARSUPLEX

kay7711226 said:


> Anyone here mowing sub 0.5" Tempted to take it down lower(visualizing sand levelling and a home made putting green)


I need a serious mower if I plan to take it down any lower than 5/8". Sand leveling will need to happen as well.

I will say - from the posts on here, maintaining an actual putting green is 20x more difficult than just a sub 1" cut.


----------



## kay7711226

SOLARSUPLEX said:


> kay7711226 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone here mowing sub 0.5" Tempted to take it down lower(visualizing sand levelling and a home made putting green)
> 
> 
> 
> I need a serious mower if I plan to take it down any lower than 5/8". Sand leveling will need to happen as well.
> 
> I will say - from the posts on here, maintaining an actual putting green is 20x more difficult than just a sub 1" cut.
Click to expand...

Point taken, mowing at 5/8" with my JD greens mower and KBG has been holding up very nicely since my reno last Fall. Was just curious if anyone is constantly sub 0.5" and if any pros/cons?(not expecting to get bentgrass putting green quality)


----------



## White94RX

I've been mowing my KBG at 1". I'd like to go lower, but I haven't done any real sand leveling. It looks so good, I may just leave it at that height. Any advantage or disadvantage to going below 1"?


----------



## kay7711226

Accidentally took my KBG down to 0.25" using a manual reel,.......within 3days it was already back to 0.5" Golf balls roll better at 0.25" but will need to do some levelling to continue at my chipping/putting adventure.


----------



## psider25

Stumbled upon this thread researching info on how and when to start using my new deere greens mower. ... lots of good info from the usual suspects 

I reno'd last fall and have been mowing my bewitched kbg at between 1.5 and 2.5 inches since with a rotary. Curious if the consensus is to try to drop straight down to greens mower heights right away or wait until early fall?

I think the highest the jd 220b with 11 blade reel and GTC will cut is just under 1 inch. I read if I remove GTC it will go up to 1.1 inch.

Should I be a rebel or not :lol:


----------



## SNOWBOB11

psider25 said:


> Stumbled upon this thread researching info on how and when to start using my new deere greens mower. ... lots of good info from the usual suspects
> 
> I reno'd last fall and have been mowing my bewitched kbg at between 1.5 and 2.5 inches since with a rotary. Curious if the consensus is to try to drop straight down to greens mower heights right away or wait until early fall?
> 
> I think the highest the jd 220b with 11 blade reel and GTC will cut is just under 1 inch. I read if I remove GTC it will go up to 1.1 inch.
> 
> Should I be a rebel or not :lol:


Start now. Don't wait until fall. The grass will adapt.


----------



## kay7711226

Is it possible to maintain the same color for KBG sub 1" compared to 1-3"? What's the trick?...Sighhhhhhh


----------



## Harts

kay7711226 said:


> Is it possible to maintain the same color for KBG sub 1" compared to 1-3"? What's the trick?...Sighhhhhhh


Iron will give you a deeper green.


----------



## Harts

SNOWBOB11 said:


> psider25 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Stumbled upon this thread researching info on how and when to start using my new deere greens mower. ... lots of good info from the usual suspects
> 
> I reno'd last fall and have been mowing my bewitched kbg at between 1.5 and 2.5 inches since with a rotary. Curious if the consensus is to try to drop straight down to greens mower heights right away or wait until early fall?
> 
> I think the highest the jd 220b with 11 blade reel and GTC will cut is just under 1 inch. I read if I remove GTC it will go up to 1.1 inch.
> 
> Should I be a rebel or not :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Start now. Don't wait until fall. The grass will adapt.
Click to expand...

Agree. I got my greens mower in June 2019 and started end of the month - a terrible time to start but my grass bounced back in a couple of weeks even with temps in the 80s and 90s.


----------



## briansemerick

i'm cutting my mazama and midnight at .75" with an Allett 43B Reel mower. So far so good, but they're elite cultivars that I planted from a kill off in my front and back yard. My side strips are city sod, when I scalped down to .75" as well. These I thinned way out with the scarifier cartridge but it's not really greening up much. So I'm concerned that it just wasn't grass I could cut that low.

I bought some RPR Ryegrass to overseed and top dress those strips this fall. I'm in Chicago area.


----------



## kay7711226

Harts said:


> kay7711226 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible to maintain the same color for KBG sub 1" compared to 1-3"? What's the trick?...Sighhhhhhh
> 
> 
> 
> Iron will give you a deeper green.
Click to expand...

Did 1 Feature app ~3weeks ago, 2 week rotation a good plan?


----------



## Harts

kay7711226 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kay7711226 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it possible to maintain the same color for KBG sub 1" compared to 1-3"? What's the trick?...Sighhhhhhh
> 
> 
> 
> Iron will give you a deeper green.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did 1 Feature app ~3weeks ago, 2 week rotation a good plan?
Click to expand...

I think so. I do 3 week intervals with FAS. So 2-3 weeks should be good enough to give you consistent colour.


----------



## briansemerick

my lawn is looking the best it ever has, right now. even the city strips have greened up and I'm cutting with a reel at 1" on those too. Just good fert, humic, iron, some aerate, and water water water.


----------



## kay7711226

What are you doing to keel the Ants/ant mounds at bay? Really making my 12mm HOC look bad..... there are "hot spots" popping up all over.


----------



## JerseyGreens

Do you guys apply your next dose of PGR when the GDD is a day or two from being met?

Meaning my GDD is 297 - should I target 280ish to apply the next round and get a little bit of overlap?


----------



## SNOWBOB11

JerseyGreens said:


> Do you guys apply your next dose of PGR when the GDD is a day or two from being met?
> 
> Meaning my GDD is 297 - should I target 280ish to apply the next round and get a little bit of overlap?


In my experiences it makes little difference if you apply a couple days before or after you reach the threshold. It's not a matter of as soon as it gets to the GDD of re application you get a rebound. It takes a little while. And if you go a bit early that's fine too.


----------



## kay7711226

What is the consensus on PGR going into fall and when do you stop applying?


----------



## cleohioturf

depends on your climate and when you see growing degree days taper off. I will take it through september and stop, giving myself a few weeks of top plant growth before the frost and tapering happens.

as for timing, I got some late this year which also coincided with nice growing days and I had a surge that I had to reregulate and bring back to normal clip volume.

here is a study that could be of interest, note the location (MN)https://turf.umn.edu/late-season-plant-growth-regulator-applications


----------

