# Darkest TTTF



## Scagfreedom48z+

Anyone have any current NTEP studies that show the darkest TTTF that can be purchased?


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## CrackedCornCrack

Hey sorry man I didn't respond to your post in my thread. SNAPBACK RR by United Seeds is so freaking dark.





I'll get you a close up picture tomorrow, but it's probably the darkest grass I've seen, regardless of type.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

That's pretty dark! How old is the turf?


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## CrackedCornCrack

About 8 months


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## critterdude311

CrackedCornCrack said:


> Hey sorry man I didn't respond to your post in my thread. SNAPBACK RR by United Seeds is so freaking dark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get you a close up picture tomorrow, but it's probably the darkest grass I've seen, regardless of type.


Regenerate TTTF is close but i don't think it is quite that dark. It was noticeably darker year 2, so I cant imagine how dark that is going to be next year, holy crap!


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## CrackedCornCrack

@critterdude311 , It's certainly impressed me. I think @Green has used one of the cultivars (Summer, or Flame) and mentioned he noticed the dark color as well.


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## M32075

I overseed with summer TTTF last fall not even close to that color.


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## drenglish

I have Regenerate 2, 4th Millennium, and Traverse (a blend at Seed Super Store at the time). All blend well and are tall dark and handsome. On year 2 now and I know it's darker than it was year one. Also KBG in there.

Here's my brother enjoying a mow:


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## Scagfreedom48z+

drenglish said:


> I have Regenerate 2, 4th Millennium, and Traverse (a blend at Seed Super Store at the time). All blend well and are tall dark and handsome. On year 2 now and I know it's darker than it was year one. Also KBG in there.
> 
> Here's my brother enjoying a mow:


Something must be up with my soil. I wasn't able to get my soil test pre season to compare to last years. I overseeded heavy last fall with this same mix of tttf and my turf is no where near that color. Lol!

That color is insane


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## CrackedCornCrack

@Scagfreedom48z+ , I primarily use milorganite, and cracked corn. This year I've sprayed FEature twice but the color was already really dark so I'm not sure how much difference it made.


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## CrackedCornCrack

@M32075 ... did you notice the summer is really finely bladed or no?


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## bernstem

Soil and growing conditions have a huge impact on turf color. Iron levels and pH are big, though there are other factors that play into color. Foliar Iron can dramatically darken turf. Longer grass generally looks darker.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ , I primarily use milorganite, and cracked corn. This year I've sprayed FEature twice but the color was already really dark so I'm not sure how much difference it made.


How did your turf fair with heat and cold?


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## Scagfreedom48z+

bernstem said:


> Soil and growing conditions have a huge impact on turf color. Iron levels and pH are big, though there are other factors that play into color. Foliar Iron can dramatically darken turf. Longer grass generally looks darker.


I'm hoping that I can get some guidance from anyone on this thread. You guys have killer color. My overseed isn't a year old yet but I was expecting a little more than what I have currently in regards to color. Like I emotions before, I applied feature and urea via my spreadermate, hoping for a pop. It didn't do much and I know that my turf has more to offer in regards to color than what I'm experiencing right now.

Would moving to FAS be a better alternative? I haven't tried it before but it seems like many are using it with great results.

I'm trying to figure out why the color isn't progressing much. I know that foliar iron is a loop hole to better color, if your soil isn't exactly on point.

I have made a significant effort to fix my soul since getting my test last year, to address the deficiencies. I haven't received my soil test back due to covid and the university already cashed my payment so at this point, I'm in no rush since the season has started.

My soil test last year is this:


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## Scagfreedom48z+

bernstem said:


> Soil and growing conditions have a huge impact on turf color. Iron levels and pH are big, though there are other factors that play into color. Foliar Iron can dramatically darken turf. Longer grass generally looks darker.


I'm hoping that I can get some guidance from anyone on this thread. You guys have killer color. My overseed isn't a year old yet but I was expecting a little more than what I have currently in regards to color. Like I emotions before, I applied feature and urea via my spreadermate, hoping for a pop. It didn't do much and I know that my turf has more to offer in regards to color than what I'm experiencing right now.

Would moving to FAS be a better alternative? I haven't tried it before but it seems like many are using it with great results.

I'm trying to figure out why the color isn't progressing much. I know that foliar iron is a loop hole to better color, if your soil isn't exactly on point.

I have made a significant effort to fix my soil since getting my test last year, to address the deficiencies. I haven't received my soil test back due to covid and the university already cashed my payment so at this point, I'm in no rush since the season has started.

My soil test last year is this:


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## gasdoc

One thing to remember is that lighting plays a huge role. Sometimes I love my color, sometimes I'm asking questions just like you.



This is the first spring after Reno. It's a blend of TTTF/kbg . Many cultivars - Cochise IV, hotrod, Michaelangelo, 4th millennium, titanium 2, award, midnight, bewithced, bluenote.

I've pushed a decent amount of N so far, 1.5lbs split over 2 apps and temps are not exactly ideal yet and I'm south of you. I've also put down main event iron and a squirt of pgr (0.2oz/M). I think of all those interventions the ammonium sulfate in the carbon x was the most bang for the buck.

We have similar soil tests, keep working on your pH and k+ for general health. AS is usually recommended here for basic soils but I think a small dose for green up/darkening is ok for our acidic soils


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## davegravy

gasdoc said:


> One thing to remember is that lighting plays a huge role. Sometimes I love my color, sometimes I'm asking questions just like you.


I've noticed this too, especially in looking at pictures I've taken of my lawn since the auto exposure messes with things.

I'm thinking of looking for a camera app for my phone which allows a manual exposure so I can get a more consistent representation of my lawn.


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## bernstem

For sure don't discount the way the picture is taken. Here are two pictures of the same lawn taken at the same time of the day:





They look different. The first photos just looks darker.

Looking at your soil test, Fe levels are good to well above good. pH is low, P is low, K is low. Boron is low. CEC is good. See what the test shows this year, but likely you will need a touch more P and K. You can probably ignore the Boron, at least for now. Ultimately, you will not be limited by your soil from what I can see on the soil test.

The other side is to keep the grass happy. Longer grass will look darker. Well fed grass will help. Iron sprays will help.

You will be limited by the genetics of your cultiver. If you really want the darkest grass, you will probably have to renovate and start from scratch with newer darker cultivars. That is a lot of work, though.


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## M32075

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @M32075 ... did you notice the summer is really finely bladed or no?


Yes definitely fine bladed compared to usual TTTF


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## CrackedCornCrack

@Scagfreedom48z+ , try SnapBack RR this fall, plus any methods to raise your ph.

@SwardEnthusiast will probably agree, SnapBack is ridiculously dark in his lawn and mine, regardless of time of day, and especially compared to other TTTF that we have/had.

I haven't seen it through a full summer, so I'm not sure about heat.

This picture was taken in Jan or feb with the lawn between 1.5- 2 inches



And this is today at 4.0


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ , try SnapBack RR this fall, plus any methods to raise your ph.
> 
> @SwardEnthusiast will probably agree, SnapBack is ridiculously dark in his lawn and mine, regardless of time of day, and especially compared to other TTTF that we have/had.
> 
> I haven't seen it through a full summer, so I'm not sure about heat.
> 
> This picture was taken in Jan or feb with the lawn between 1.5- 2 inches


I think you got me sold on it. Did you do a full reno or overseed of an existing lawn? Rate?


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## Chris LI

@Scagfreedom48z+ 
I agree with @CrackedCornCrack about raising pH, to help darken the lawn. I think the boatload of Fe you have in your soil (from Milo, I presume?), may be locked up with your low pH. I'm not 100% positive, but I recall reading somewhere about how pH relates to iron and other micronutrients. Unable to pick up lime and SOP from my local supplier with this Covid mess (avoiding crowds/contact), I ordered and applied one round of Cal-Flo from Do My Own and color improved noticeably. Also, after applying Growth Products 0-0-25 which has a pH of 12, it darkened even more (I have both low pH and a K deficiency, with high Fe results from my soil test).


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## SwardEnthusiast

I agree with @CrackedCornCrack. SnapBack is super dark!


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ , try SnapBack RR this fall, plus any methods to raise your ph.
> 
> @SwardEnthusiast will probably agree, SnapBack is ridiculously dark in his lawn and mine, regardless of time of day, and especially compared to other TTTF that we have/had.
> 
> I haven't seen it through a full summer, so I'm not sure about heat.
> 
> This picture was taken in Jan or feb with the lawn between 1.5- 2 inches
> 
> 
> 
> And this is today at 4.0


Just ordered 200 lbs of it!


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## bernstem

Fe availability is very good at low pH. It becomes locked up at pH above 7, though generally you need to get to high 7s to see an effect. A pH of 5.4 is likely to impact color from binding up of other nutrients, particularly Phosphorus. Raising pH will "release" Phos from the soil. Even then, you still need more Phos; the low pH is just adding to the problem.


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## CrackedCornCrack

@bernstem ,

Can you explain the science behind acidic soil and leaf color (if that's a thing?)

I've anecdotally noticed that when people have lawns with a ph lower than 6 they generally struggle to get dark green grass.

Does ph have anything to do with that or is it potentially other deficiencies that and my observations on ph and color are just correlations and not causation.


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## bernstem

That is complicated, and I don't know that I really understand it at a granular level. All Biological systems are complicated and something like pH affects a lot of different things. I'll give a few examples, but it is much more complex than this. pH will change how soil binds nutrients, but not all soils are the same. Different clay soils will respond to pH changes differently. pH probably also directly affects the grass and its ability to pull in nutrients, but the act of pulling in Nitrogen also raises the pH immediately around the roots (Crazy!). Even crazier, some (many?/all?) plants will actually change their gene expression depending on the pH of the medium they are grown in. There are many more effects within the plant that are driven by nutrient levels inside the grass, which is influenced by all the above.

That is all interesting, but also not directly relevent to us. What we care about is how well the plants grow. There are a huge number of studies looking at soil macronutrient levels and pH and correlating them to plant health and growth. That data is what the soil testing recommendations draw on. Why grass does better with a pH of 6.5 and Phos of 4-14 PPM doesn't really matter. We know if we get the soil nutrients to a particular level (the specific level veries depending on test method - why that is the case is a whole different discussion) the grass will do better.


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## Rp9110

Very impressed with this blends darkness.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

bernstem said:


> That is complicated, and I don't know that I really understand it at a granular level. All Biological systems are complicated and something like pH affects a lot of different things. I'll give a few examples, but it is much more complex than this. pH will change how soil binds nutrients, but not all soils are the same. Different clay soils will respond to pH changes differently. pH probably also directly affects the grass and its ability to pull in nutrients, but the act of pulling in Nitrogen also raises the pH immediately around the roots (Crazy!). Even crazier, some (many?/all?) plants will actually change their gene expression depending on the pH of the medium they are grown in. There are many more effects within the plant that are driven by nutrient levels inside the grass, which is influenced by all the above.
> 
> That is all interesting, but also not directly relevent to us. What we care about is how well the plants grow. There are a huge number of studies looking at soil macronutrient levels and pH and correlating them to plant health and growth. That data is what the soil testing recommendations draw on. Why grass does better with a pH of 6.5 and Phos of 4-14 PPM doesn't really matter. We know if we get the soil nutrients to a particular level (the specific level veries depending on test method - why that is the case is a whole different discussion) the grass will do better.


Great write up. So would my P&K levels be the issue here? Seems like my ph would fall into the sweet spot for iron levels.


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## bernstem

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Great write up. So would my P&K levels be the issue here? Seems like my ph would fall into the sweet spot for iron levels.


Phos and Potassium are likely contributing. Nitrogen also is important for color, but not very helpful to test for as it varies depending on what was applied since it doesn't stay in the soil. Generally speaking, you want to fix N/P/K deficiencies first before you start thinking about other things, though Iron is important enough for color we usually address it with N/P/K.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

bernstem said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great write up. So would my P&K levels be the issue here? Seems like my ph would fall into the sweet spot for iron levels.
> 
> 
> 
> Phos and Potassium are likely contributing. Nitrogen also is important for color, but not very helpful to test for as it varies depending on what was applied since it doesn't stay in the soil. Generally speaking, you want to fix N/P/K deficiencies first before you start thinking about other things, though Iron is important enough for color we usually address it with N/P/K.
Click to expand...

Great information man! I know that this is a loaded questions but I'm hitting the lawn with #2 of SOP and TSP each. During the majority of my spoon feeding apps last year, especially during the fall blitz, I used Lesco 18-24-12. How long does it take to correct P&K?


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## bernstem

P and K will correct immediately at the surface, but it will take time for it to work deeper into the soil profile. Your test should have recommended amounts to correct the deficiency. Generally 6-12 months is enough time for the P and K to work down. If you are testing the entire soil profile, the additions will show up immediately. If you are discarding the top of the profile, it may take a month or more to show up depending how much you are discarding. pH adjustments can take up to 3 years to work into the soil. Soil type and lime type affects how fast all that happens. There really isn't any reason to test more than yearly. Many midwest farmers test every 3 years.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

bernstem said:


> P and K will correct immediately at the surface, but it will take time for it to work deeper into the soil profile. Your test should have recommended amounts to correct the deficiency. Generally 6-12 months is enough time for the P and K to work down. If you are testing the entire soil profile, the additions will show up immediately. If you are discarding the top of the profile, it may take a month or more to show up depending how much you are discarding. pH adjustments can take up to 3 years to work into the soil. Soil type and lime type affects how fast all that happens. There really isn't any reason to test more than yearly. Many midwest farmers test every 3 years.


Thanks for responding. Solid information here.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> Hey sorry man I didn't respond to your post in my thread. SNAPBACK RR by United Seeds is so freaking dark.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll get you a close up picture tomorrow, but it's probably the darkest grass I've seen, regardless of type.


How's your snap back holding up to the heat?


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## Thick n Dense

Just gotta say that snapback looks awesome... if I ever decide to not let my lawn go dormant in the summer Ill switch from kbg to this... hopefully by then they cross breed with a rhizomatic type .


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## sowmyans

It seems snapback is no longer available 

https://unitedseeds.com/product-category/home-lawns/


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## Depalma2002

sowmyans said:


> It seems snapback is no longer available
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product-category/home-lawns/


It's 70% No Net and 30% Summer and both seem to be available so you can roll your own. Might add slightly to the cost and you might end up with some extra seed but if you want it badly enough


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## sowmyans

Thanks, that is great


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## gmorf33

sowmyans said:


> It seems snapback is no longer available
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product-category/home-lawns/


Came to post this same thing... Anyone know the specific cultivars that were in the SnapBack RR? Or was that the actual cultivar name? Wonder why it was discontinued...


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## Depalma2002

gmorf33 said:


> sowmyans said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems snapback is no longer available
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product-category/home-lawns/
> 
> 
> 
> Came to post this same thing... Anyone know the specific cultivars that were in the SnapBack RR? Or was that the actual cultivar name? Wonder why it was discontinued...
Click to expand...

https://unitedseeds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SNAP-BACK.pdf

Pdf says 70-30 No Net to Summer, but it is kind of curious that both are listed in stock but the blend is unavailable.

Edit:
On the No Net page it says:
"Under the tradename No Net, Jacklin offers two varieties United Seeds sells interchangeably. Flame and JT783 are sold under the No Net trade name"

Perhaps the No Net variety in stock and the No Net variety used in the blend are not the same?


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## gmorf33

Depalma2002 said:


> gmorf33 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sowmyans said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems snapback is no longer available
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product-category/home-lawns/
> 
> 
> 
> Came to post this same thing... Anyone know the specific cultivars that were in the SnapBack RR? Or was that the actual cultivar name? Wonder why it was discontinued...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/SNAP-BACK.pdf
> 
> Pdf says 70-30 No Net to Summer, but it is kind of curious that both are listed in stock but the blend is unavailable.
> 
> Edit:
> On the No Net page it says:
> "Under the tradename No Net, Jacklin offers two varieties United Seeds sells interchangeably. Flame and JT783 are sold under the No Net trade name"
> 
> Perhaps the No Net variety in stock and the No Net variety used in the blend are not the same?
Click to expand...

Sure enough.. looks like you can get the "no net" which is Jacklin's "Flame" stuff here: https://unitedseeds.com/product/no-net-tall-fescue/
$130 for a 50 lb bag.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

I was fortunate to buy early. I was able to by $
200 lbs of the snap back


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## PatchOfWeeds

I called United last week to ask why Snap Back wasn't on the site anymore because I planned to use it for my fall overseed. The gentleman who I spoke to said they have it but took removed it from the website because they received some complaints about the product bunching up. I really loved how it looked in photos and now I need to come up with plan b.


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## Avalawn T

They do have 4th millennium for a great price, its dark and fine just got a 25lb bag in the mail yesterday. The tag was great too. 99.97 purity no weeds no other crop.


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## FuzzeWuzze

Thats a pretty impressive tag. I dont think i've ever seen something with so little inert in it.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

PatchOfWeeds said:


> I called United last week to ask why Snap Back wasn't on the site anymore because I planned to use it for my fall overseed. The gentleman who I spoke to said they have it but took removed it from the website because they received some complaints about the product bunching up. I really loved how it looked in photos and now I need to come up with plan b.


 Please explain what you mean by bunching up? I bought #200 lbs of it for an overseed, paid an outrageous amount for shipping and now I'm concerned.


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## PatchOfWeeds

The guy described it as bunching/clumping up. He said he doesn't recommend using it and I should use Super Turf 2 seed instead. It was a brief conversation and it honestly messed up my fall plan. I called Hogan and he pointed me towards his fescue blend of hemi,hot rod and I forget the 3rd fescue, I have it written down at home and I'm away on vacation. He also said he would add 5% nuglade Kabg to get some spread. I still need to figure out what I will be doing. One thing the guy from United mentioned to me was in September they will have some beautiful new seed coming in. I'm looking to aerate and seed on my next vacation week(the last week of August)


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Anyone have SnapBack that can enlighten on their experience? Or close up pictures?


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## CrackedCornCrack

@Scagfreedom48z+ I haven't noticed any bunching, it's looked pretty great so far. I'll post pictures tomorrow.


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## J-Roll615

I went with SuperTurf and purchased a small bag of Nuglade KBG to mix. The tag looks like the NTEP Dream Team. All of these scored highly in color. Looking forward to this year's renovation.


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## CrackedCornCrack

I've used super turf in the past and was EXTREMELY pleased with it. It was perfect in every way but never got "oh my God" dark.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> I've used super turf in the past and was EXTREMELY pleased with it. It was perfect in every way but never got "oh my God" dark.


I'm looking for that "oh my god" dark with the SnapBack


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## J-Roll615

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> CrackedCornCrack said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've used super turf in the past and was EXTREMELY pleased with it. It was perfect in every way but never got "oh my God" dark.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm looking for that "oh my god" dark with the SnapBack
Click to expand...

I think that's a fair statement. I mixed it with Regenerate last year and my yard was really dark. One of the darkest in my subdivision. The SnapBack was definitely dark. It's tough to find anything that dark without going KBG.


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## CrackedCornCrack

Here are some pictures of SnapBack mid summer. The tan spots in one picture are just clippings because I waited to long to mow. The freaking awesome lawn is @SwardEnthusiast , who also has a SnapBack yard.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

CrackedCornCrack said:


> Here are some pictures of SnapBack mid summer. The tan spots in one picture are just clippings because I waited to long to mow. The freaking awesome lawn is @SwardEnthusiast , who also has a SnapBack yard.


It's definitely dark doesn't seem to have a bunching characteristic. I wonder if it's just a bad batch?


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## McGlock

Hello everyone! 
I see the original question was about what are the darkest TTTF seed breeds. There are two off the top of my head from Jacklin seed, one is Arid 3, and the other is Inferno. Both received 5 stars on color. If you have shaded areas, Titanium 2LS. Summer TTTF which is one of the finest, if not the finest blade is in SnapBack from United Seed INC. It has a 4 star color rating, but 5 in multiple other categories. The bluegrass that is added to mixtures helps to darken the contrast in TTTF and netting. If you wanted to darken and have quality turf Without using a bluegrass, I would use 4th Millenium, Summer, Inferno, Arid 3(or Titanium 2LS for Arid M3 if shade). If adding a bluegrass I would use jackpot with the first three and Titanium 2LS. Mountain View seed company also has some really nice breeds besides Titanium 2LS like, Raptor III, Valkerie (deep dark), Spyder LS, etc. SnapBack from United Seed INC. is Summer TTTF and jackpot bluegrass.


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## oa1583

Snapback now is summer with no net (flame) says all tall fescue from united no bluegrass but the summer they say act like bluegrass. Anyone has pic of their snapback now after this summer. Do they have to oversees.


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## lawn-wolverine

drenglish said:


> I have Regenerate 2, 4th Millennium, and Traverse (a blend at Seed Super Store at the time). All blend well and are tall dark and handsome. On year 2 now and I know it's darker than it was year one. Also KBG in there.
> 
> Here's my brother enjoying a mow:


This is just INCREDIBLE !! Amazingly dark.


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## Amydaveg

Any comments on Prime Time TTTF in terms of color?


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## Loading

Can I see an updated pic on the SnapBack rr?


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## Bill Alburger1

Loading said:


> Can I see an updated pic on the SnapBack rr?


+1. Thinking of going with Snap Back myself for this years overseed.


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## moedank

I can make my fescue look dark green comparable to quality kbg or more lime green like KY31. Depends on a variety of factors - freshly striped cut vs no recent mowing, sunny or cloudy, camera angle, etc.

I just go off the NTEP trial results for my area and hope for the best. Would be cool if there was abundant, NTEP provided, side-by-side aerial videography of these top performing cultivars available on the internet. Kind of like what Ryan Knorr is/will be doing out at his country test plot with his rye, kbg and fescue grasses. His rye definitely stands out compared to the fescue and kbg.


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## gfuzz

Starting a TTTF project, and brought me here. I'm interested in the snapback as well -- and have ordered from United several times over the years. I noticed though that the current snapback "description" says

"...No-Net and Summer Turf Type Tall Fescues..."

while the "contains" information says
"50% No Net Turf Type Tall Fescue, 50% BarRobusto Turf type Tall Fescue"

https://unitedseeds.com/product/snap-back-rr/

My goal here (like most i assume) is a very dark green, fine bladed, compact tttf. My purpose is to try and replace as much of the kbg I have in my front yard with a more drought/heat tolerant turf. Does anyone have experience with the barrobusto being fine , dwarf(ish), and dark green? There has to be 25-30 tttf with these claims and similar ntep results -- think 4th mill, sidewinder, traverse2, etc. Keeping lawn inline with my kbg, I would like to stay around that 1.5" height of cut. Snapback link says that it can tolerate .75" hoc.....I have no issues with spraying fungicide , moderate irrigation etc. Just the KBG is too delicate for my setup in the front. I did leave a message with united seed. Thanks in advance for any feedback.


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## gfuzz

Now I am down the rabbit hole looking at different ntep years, mixes, monos, texture vs color, i may need to self medicate ..... any help appreciated.


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## oblique

gfuzz said:


> Starting a TTTF project, and brought me here. I'm interested in the snapback as well -- and have ordered from United several times over the years. I noticed though that the current snapback "description" says
> 
> "...No-Net and Summer Turf Type Tall Fescues..."
> 
> while the "contains" information says
> "50% No Net Turf Type Tall Fescue, 50% BarRobusto Turf type Tall Fescue"
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product/snap-back-rr/
> 
> My goal here (like most i assume) is a very dark green, fine bladed, compact tttf. My purpose is to try and replace as much of the kbg I have in my front yard with a more drought/heat tolerant turf. Does anyone have experience with the barrobusto being fine , dwarf(ish), and dark green? There has to be 25-30 tttf with these claims and similar ntep results -- think 4th mill, sidewinder, traverse2, etc. Keeping lawn inline with my kbg, I would like to stay around that 1.5" height of cut. Snapback link says that it can tolerate .75" hoc.....I have no issues with spraying fungicide , moderate irrigation etc. Just the KBG is too delicate for my setup in the front. I did leave a message with united seed. Thanks in advance for any feedback.


 WOW your goal is literally the same as mine and I'm from CT too lol. I was also thinking about going with Snapback and a Tall fescue for the 1st time. I came across a recent reddit post of someone else that was interested in it, but then they changed their mind because they said that BarRobusto has a wide leaf blade:


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/lawncare/comments/vyzz1b

I searched for pictures but only came across the pdf detail card of the grass and in that photo the blades did look wide. So that's a bummer because I also want a very dark tall fescue. My second option originally was Super Turf I from United seeds inc. but then I changed my mind last night to go with the new Titanium G-LS. It's claimed to be the top NTEP choice (2020) like many of the others you mentioned. Unfortunately again I couldn't find any pictures besides the one from the detail card, but it does look dark green and have fine blades. Hopefully I make up my mind soon because I plan on overseeding the 2nd week of September.


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## Bill Alburger1

oblique said:


> gfuzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Starting a TTTF project, and brought me here. I'm interested in the snapback as well -- and have ordered from United several times over the years. I noticed though that the current snapback "description" says
> 
> "...No-Net and Summer Turf Type Tall Fescues..."
> 
> while the "contains" information says
> "50% No Net Turf Type Tall Fescue, 50% BarRobusto Turf type Tall Fescue"
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product/snap-back-rr/
> 
> My goal here (like most i assume) is a very dark green, fine bladed, compact tttf. My purpose is to try and replace as much of the kbg I have in my front yard with a more drought/heat tolerant turf. Does anyone have experience with the barrobusto being fine , dwarf(ish), and dark green? There has to be 25-30 tttf with these claims and similar ntep results -- think 4th mill, sidewinder, traverse2, etc. Keeping lawn inline with my kbg, I would like to stay around that 1.5" height of cut. Snapback link says that it can tolerate .75" hoc.....I have no issues with spraying fungicide , moderate irrigation etc. Just the KBG is too delicate for my setup in the front. I did leave a message with united seed. Thanks in advance for any feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> WOW your goal is literally the same as mine and I'm from CT too lol. I was also thinking about going with Snapback and a Tall fescue for the 1st time. I came across a recent reddit post of someone else that was interested in it, but then they changed their mind because they said that BarRobusto has a wide leaf blade:
> 
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/lawncare/comments/vyzz1b
> 
> I searched for pictures but only came across the pdf detail card of the grass and in that photo the blades did look wide. So that's a bummer because I also want a very dark tall fescue. My second option originally was Super Turf I from United seeds inc. but then I changed my mind last night to go with the new Titanium G-LS. It's claimed to be the top NTEP choice (2020) like many of the others you mentioned. Unfortunately again I couldn't find any pictures besides the one from the detail card, but it does look dark green and have fine blades. Hopefully I make up my mind soon because I plan on overseeding the 2nd week of September.
Click to expand...

Just curious.. you said you want a dark lawn, you mentioned SnapBack has a wide blade and that was a bummer. Is it just the wide blade you don't want or does the wide blade affect the dark color you are hoping for?


----------



## gfuzz

@oblique Thanks for the research share and the reply... Yes, so the "Super Turf I" from United Seed also has elite cultivars... Then there is Ryan Knorr (Stover Seed) mix, and also twin city, and preferred seed mixes that all are elite but different. I keep going back to the snapback because of the .75hoc, which makes me comfortable at keeping it between 1-1.5"..... I mentioned that I have KBG that does well on the sides of the house (with watering + high maintenance) because it gets some slight shade. My front lawn gets 100% full sun, no trees, no shade, and I can keep *most of the KBG from going dormant, but every year is a massive battle, and when I go away for a week, I lose the battle lol. I want lower maintenance that I can still baby when I need to , and will also transition/blend into the existing KBG on the sides and back -- which is a midnight type blend from SSS a few years back. I just want the finest , darkest, lowest growing mix or mono TTTF I can find, but the claims, and one sheets are all over the place , and ntep results are so similar with no mention of HOC or growth habit. Just a little lost. So many 'elite' varieties of TTTF.


----------



## oblique

Bill Alburger1 said:


> Just curious.. you said you want a dark lawn, you mentioned SnapBack has a wide blade and that was a bummer. Is it just the wide blade you don't want or does the wide blade affect the dark color you are hoping for?


Well for me it's 2 things I want a dark green lawn, but I prefer a fine to medium leaf blade texture and not a wide one. I hear that wide bladed leaf grasses have a more course feel to them when you walk on them. And I never really liked the look, I think K31 Tall Fescue is the widest blade grass I can think of and I really dislike that look.


----------



## gfuzz

@Bill Alburger1 I personally am looking for a finer to medium fine blade with dark color, lower growth habit would be great, but lower hoc tolerance (2-3x mow per week) is a must.... Also, when people mention "wide" blade, are we talking old K31 or just slightly wider than other new cultivars. I have a difficult time understanding all of this, but would love to pull the trigger on something... its amazing how little images, research I can find on all the new top performers beyond ntep scores and the pdf one sheets.... So then that makes me circle around with the mixes. If I have 3-4 elite ntep top performers thats great, but if some don't tolerate lower hoc, and others are wider bladed, and some are lighter green, then I just want to go with a mono , but I am having a hard time finding which one to order that would be the best. I'm fine fighting disease and spraying, moderate irrigation efforts, etc. I just want the best looking (dark/finer), lowest growing tttf that is going to have a better heat and drought tolerance to my KBG.


----------



## gfuzz

also, side note, for anyone that hasn't seen this yet... its a filtered table of ntep by name, year, type, wtvr. very helpful instead of having 20 tabs open:
https://maps.umn.edu/ntep/


----------



## oblique

gfuzz said:


> @oblique Thanks for the research share and the reply... Yes, so the "Super Turf I" from United Seed also has elite cultivars... Then there is Ryan Knorr (Stover Seed) mix, and also twin city, and preferred seed mixes that all are elite but different. I keep going back to the snapback because of the .75hoc, which makes me comfortable at keeping it between 1-1.5"..... I mentioned that I have KBG that does well on the sides of the house (with watering + high maintenance) because it gets some slight shade. My front lawn gets 100% full sun, no trees, no shade, and I can keep *most of the KBG from going dormant, but every year is a massive battle, and when I go away for a week, I lose the battle lol. I want lower maintenance that I can still baby when I need to , and will also transition/blend into the existing KBG on the sides and back -- which is a midnight type blend from SSS a few years back. I just want the finest , darkest, lowest growing mix or mono TTTF I can find, but the claims, and one sheets are all over the place , and ntep results are so similar with no mention of HOC or growth habit. Just a little lost. So many 'elite' varieties of TTTF.


Yes I agree. I looked at the Stovers Seed which seemed like a good option because it included Traverse which I haven't found in another mix that includes it this season (The picture on the 1st page from this thread from drenglish included: Regenerate 2, 4th Millennium, and Traverse blend, and his picture was amazing of how dark it looked). But it looks like they are sold out now and only were selling 25 pound bags at $150. I wish United seeds had the option to mix seeds like seedsuperstore does because I would make my own mix. But I'm thinking I might just try a top performer like Titanium/4th Mil and just go that route and see how it goes.


----------



## gfuzz

@oblique I agree with what you just said.... If you look at my last post, youll also see that Firecracker G-LS looks great on ntep. So I go in circles. I personally am looking to purchase approx 50lbs, which will leave me enough to spot seed any areas that I need, and also for a spring overseed / spot seed... as well. Pricing is very reasonable on all the seeds, I just want to know which one to pick lol. If you want to mix, I mean ordering multiple 10lbs bags at once wouldn't be horrible -- I don't actually know the size of your project, just using that as an example.

.....The stover seed blend describes the turf as MEDIUM texture. 
.....The united seed Super Turf 1 describes the turf as MEDIUM texture
.....The united seed SnapBack describes the turf as FINE texture

Do we go with site descriptions? Or community feedback?


----------



## oblique

gfuzz said:


> @oblique I agree with what you just said.... If you look at my last post, youll also see that Firecracker G-LS looks great on ntep. So I go in circles. I personally am looking to purchase approx 50lbs, which will leave me enough to spot seed any areas that I need, and also for a spring overseed / spot seed... as well. Pricing is very reasonable on all the seeds, I just want to know which one to pick lol. If you want to mix, I mean ordering multiple 10lbs bags at once wouldn't be horrible -- I don't actually know the size of your project, just using that as an example.


Yea I'm the same too I keep going in circles lol. Well my project might be a little more extensive this year. Long story short I used a PRG/Fine Fescue/KBG mix from natureseed last year which looked awesome in the fall after the overseed:


But with the drought this summer and I think the quality of the seed (It was a northwest mix) the majority of my yard is all dead now. I did water it but not as crazy as I did the previous year. A lot of what died is the PRG I'm assuming. This is the current look and it's worse in the front yard lol: 


So I think I will need 100 lbs because I'm actually doing more of a reseed in the yard than a true overseed this year. 
To make matters worse I bought more of that seed early this spring and now can't return it. So after I switch to a tall fescue this fall I'm hoping that's the last of my lawn seed journey.


----------



## oblique

I personally was going by the website description for the textures because it looks like United seeds inc. just copy and pasted those descriptors from the cultivator seed pdf cards.


----------



## gfuzz

@oblique Yes, that looked amazing... PRG is the devils temptation IMO. Comes in super fast, dark green, great texture, mow as low as you want, Looks so amazing in spring fall.............only to die off in the summer. I think I'm going to go with the SnapBack after looking at the Barenburg RTF benefits, and BarRobusto Turf type Tall Fescue being one of the main cultivars.


----------



## oblique

gfuzz said:


> @oblique Yes, that looked amazing... PRG is the devils temptation IMO. Comes in super fast, dark green, great texture, mow as low as you want, Looks so amazing in spring fall.............only to die off in the summer. I think I'm going to go with the SnapBack after looking at the Barenburg RTF benefits, and BarRobusto Turf type Tall Fescue being one of the main cultivars.


It sure is lol...Wow that does look good. My only hesitation is the up close picture here in the tech sheet (click under where it says downloads): https://www.barusa.com/turf/tall-fescue/barrobusto%E2%84%A2-2.htm#:~:text=BarRobusto_SinglePage_TechSheet_Web_2020
The blades look really wide to me, maybe it's just my OCD lol. It does say it can be mowed really low which is a plus, but I'm still up in the air about it.


----------



## lawn-wolverine

I am not a TTTF guy, but I follow for my bro-in/law in Pittsburgh that gave up on KBG and went to TTTF for his 2 acre lawn area.
Let me revisit your experience with '4th Millenium.' I had recommended that to him to blend in next overseed, as it seemed highly-rated NTEP and by Superseedstore.
Comments on '4th Millenium' ?


----------



## jcs43920

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Anyone have any current NTEP studies that show the darkest TTTF that can be purchased?


Yeah according to NTEP Sunset Gold is the darkest overall genetic color. It's an older variety. I tried it a couple years back definitely super dark, not necessarily the best overall though. When it matured it was wider bladed and kind of clumpy compared to ones like 4th Millennium or Regenerate. Almost looked like a slightly finer bladed version of Kentucky 31 that was spray painted the darkest green paint you can find lol.

Some other really dark ones on the NTEP are…

2007-2011 genetic color mean
Sunset Gold 7.5
Renovate 7.4
Darlington 7.4
Gold Medallion 7.3

Then the 2013-2017 genetic color mean
Temptation 7.3
Diablo 7.3
Foxhound 7.2
Thunderstruck 7.2

Color of a lawn has so many variables though. Main one is just the lighting of the sun hitting it, that's why NTEP has a box with a light in it to go over every plot and take a picture to make sure they all have the same lighting.

Also doesn't matter how genetically dark the variety is if it gets brown patch, leaf spot, another disease or if you have grassy weed issues, ph problems etc.

Sometimes over the course of the year your best off getting top overall turf quality cultivars for your area even if they may not be top 5-10 in genetic color. Usually you'll find they will be darker over the course of the year than the top genetic color varieties because they are more likely to stay disease free.


----------



## lawn-wolverine

jcs43920 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have any current NTEP studies that show the darkest TTTF that can be purchased?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah according to NTEP Sunset Gold is the darkest overall genetic color. It's an older variety. I tried it a couple years back definitely super dark, not necessarily the best overall though. When it matured it was wider bladed and kind of clumpy compared to ones like 4th Millennium or Regenerate. Almost looked like a slightly finer bladed version of Kentucky 31 that was spray painted the darkest green paint you can find lol.
> 
> Some other really dark ones on the NTEP are…
> 
> 2007-2011 genetic color mean
> Sunset Gold 7.5
> Renovate 7.4
> Darlington 7.4
> Gold Medallion 7.3
> 
> Then the 2013-2017 genetic color mean
> Temptation 7.3
> Diablo 7.3
> Foxhound 7.2
> Thunderstruck 7.2
> 
> Color of a lawn has so many variables though. Main one is just the lighting of the sun hitting it, that's why NTEP has a box with a light in it to go over every plot and take a picture to make sure they all have the same lighting.
> 
> Also doesn't matter how genetically dark the variety is if it gets brown patch, leaf spot, another disease or if you have grassy weed issues, ph problems etc.
> 
> Sometimes over the course of the year your best off getting top overall turf quality cultivars for your area even if they may not be top 5-10 in genetic color. Usually you'll find they will be darker over the course of the year than the top genetic color varieties because they are more likely to stay disease free.
Click to expand...

^^^ Absolute TRUTH !👍


----------



## gfuzz

@jcs43920 You sir speak the truth. When you're right you're right.


----------



## gfuzz

@oblique Yes, that picture does make it look like some old k31 type stuff. hmm... around and around I go lol. Dark green fine texture please. I don't have the time to create test plots or pot different cultivars in my native soil and wait for them to mature... but wish I had thought of that in ummm... January!
@lawn-wolverine I am also curious to see some up close pictures of mature 4th mill mowed tightly. I've seen several pictures of people that have mixes containing 4th, but none of them are actually up close or seem to be below 3"hoc.


----------



## Don_Julio

I just ordered a 25 Lb bag for my backyard of SnapBack. My PRG and FF mix has dried up pretty bad two summer in a row. So I said enough. I hope the SnapBack doesn't have those wide blades &#129318;‍♂&#129318;‍♂


----------



## gfuzz

@Don_Julio ...I really can't see it having wide blades. The description actually says fine. But , I don't have any personal evidence of either (yet)


----------



## Don_Julio

gfuzz said:


> @Don_Julio ...I really can't see it having wide blades. The description actually says fine. But , I don't have any personal evidence of either (yet)


This was my yard early June 22 😩 


Most my backyard is dormant now, I need to overseed. I have my reasons for irrigation issues though. Will tackle upcoming season!!

Thanks for the info gfuzz!!


----------



## lawn-wolverine

Don_Julio said:


> gfuzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Don_Julio ...I really can't see it having wide blades. The description actually says fine. But , I don't have any personal evidence of either (yet)
> 
> 
> 
> This was my yard early June 22 😩
> 
> 
> Most my backyard is dormant now, I need to overseed. I have my reasons for irrigation issues though. Will tackle upcoming season!!
> 
> Thanks for the info gfuzz!!
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that great photo…it looked GORGEOUS ! I am a (about) 1.5" guy. I don't like "tall" and I don't like that "golf putting green" height either. Is there a group for sorta "in-between?"🤣 The putting green group (KBG of course) cut at sub 1". That automatically takes away dark green color. At 1.5" or so, it allow for darker green to show out, while still looking quite manicured. That's just me!
But wow! That photo looks great…something to aspire to !👍


----------



## gfuzz

@Don_Julio @lawn-wolverine Ill find a picture of my front and back when I get some time (in primetime shape) ... But same issue. I have moderate irrigation restriction this summer, and I know this is an unusual drought for my area (CT Shoreline), but even in good summers(less humid, more rain, no water restriction), my KBG struggles. 
As many probably do, I see Pete GCI Turf guy come back from his vacation (he's in NC?), and his KBG was fried too, but he brought it back soaking it. Meanwhile, his TTTF hadn't been mowed or watered in like 2 weeks and it looked like a green carpet..... My plan isn't perfect, but instead of a full reno, I want to scalp now, dethatch, aerate and heavy overseed w/ the TTTF. I figure the light watering will get the TTF going quick before my KBG starts coming back, and the scalp,dethath,aerate will help with that. Im sure theres a good chance the KBG will be coming back thin/patchy in the front anyway. I actually wouldn't mind continual seasonal overseed of TTTF either, but if the lateral spread / self-repair is actually a thing, I figure a few seasons and it should mostly be fixing itself. 
Back to the original though, I just want it very dark, and on the finer bladed side, hopefully with somewhat dwarf type growing.

...... also, great turf @Don_Julio ....


----------



## lawn-wolverine

gfuzz said:


> @Don_Julio @lawn-wolverine Ill find a picture of my front and back when I get some time (in primetime shape) ... But same issue. I have moderate irrigation restriction this summer, and I know this is an unusual drought for my area (CT Shoreline), but even in good summers(less humid, more rain, no water restriction), my KBG struggles.
> As many probably do, I see Pete GCI Turf guy come back from his vacation (he's in NC?), and his KBG was fried too, but he brought it back soaking it. Meanwhile, his TTTF hadn't been mowed or watered in like 2 weeks and it looked like a green carpet..... My plan isn't perfect, but instead of a full reno, I want to scalp now, dethatch, aerate and heavy overseed w/ the TTTF. I figure the light watering will get the TTF going quick before my KBG starts coming back, and the scalp,dethath,aerate will help with that. Im sure theres a good chance the KBG will be coming back thin/patchy in the front anyway. I actually wouldn't mind continual seasonal overseed of TTTF either, but if the lateral spread / self-repair is actually a thing, I figure a few seasons and it should mostly be fixing itself.
> Back to the original though, I just want it very dark, and on the finer bladed side, hopefully with somewhat dwarf type growing.
> 
> ...... also, great turf @Don_Julio ....


I cannot help but having a picture in mind (after you describe what you WANT)…you are describing almost perfectly…KBG. You know that, right? Almost exactly but not quite. But you, sir, are describing a KBG variety out there that is a bit less "thirsty." From your descriptors, you are a KBG guy.🤗&#129781;🏻
If I had all of your "requirements," I'd be scouring the countryside/researching a "tough" KBG variety in that lower maintenance category.
Really.


----------



## gfuzz

@lawn-wolverine hahahha! lol. I know I know.... I have a mix of midnight/mazama/bluebank(?) and its beautiful.... I've looked into the HGT Heat, CGI "Heat Mix" or wtvr its called... Even considered the texas hybrid bluegrass, and looked at KBG nteps.... I've even considered bluemuda, and planted a patch of yukon in an open area near my shed (full sun)... Funny thing, the bermuda does come back and spread in that corner. Problem is I'm too far north for the bluemuda to work properly. It doesn't come in until end of july (this is year 2), and will be dormant by early fall, so it doesn't overlap for a constant growing season. But anyone wondering... yes bermuda (at least yukon) does florish in the CT summers... Better than crabgrass lol


----------



## gfuzz

@oblique @Don_Julio


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555508810281795585
^^ This is long island sound in CT..... I'm in CT Shoreline (sound).....Its not a close up pick, but snapback and rtf both have barrobusto . Except for the patch on the right, looks pretty good for summer installed sod !

.....So @Don_Julio I would feel good about the snapback, and I think I do too


----------



## M32075

I think we all are chasing our tail looking for the darkest TTTF there's so many variables. Location,soil conditions, weather conditions, chemical and fertilize inputs. I'm more concerned how it does with fungus pressure then dark green. What good is a dark green TTTF lawn if it has dollar spot or another fungus all over


----------



## lawn-wolverine

M32075 said:


> I think we all are chasing our tail looking for the darkest TTTF there's so many variables. Location,soil conditions, weather conditions, chemical and fertilize inputs. I'm more concerned how it does with fungus pressure then dark green. What good is a dark green TTTF lawn if it has dollar spot or another fungus all over


Well, exactly ! I have recommended '4th Millenium' to my Pittsburgh bro-in-law. He gave up on KBG for the most part. He currently has a TTTF blend of some sort.


----------



## Don_Julio

gfuzz said:


> @oblique @Don_Julio
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1555508810281795585
> ^^ This is long island sound in CT..... I'm in CT Shoreline (sound).....Its not a close up pick, but snapback and rtf both have barrobusto . Except for the patch on the right, looks pretty good for summer installed sod !
> 
> .....So @Don_Julio I would feel good about the snapback, and I think I do too


Can't see the picture. Repose please


----------



## Don_Julio

lawn-wolverine said:


> Don_Julio said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gfuzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Don_Julio ...I really can't see it having wide blades. The description actually says fine. But , I don't have any personal evidence of either (yet)
> 
> 
> 
> This was my yard early June 22 😩
> 
> 
> Most my backyard is dormant now, I need to overseed. I have my reasons for irrigation issues though. Will tackle upcoming season!!
> 
> Thanks for the info gfuzz!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for sharing that great photo…it looked GORGEOUS ! I am a (about) 1.5" guy. I don't like "tall" and I don't like that "golf putting green" height either. Is there a group for sorta "in-between?"🤣 The putting green group (KBG of course) cut at sub 1". That automatically takes away dark green color. At 1.5" or so, it allow for darker green to show out, while still looking quite manicured. That's just me!
> But wow! That photo looks great…something to aspire to !👍
Click to expand...

Thank you 😂


----------



## gfuzz

@Don_Julio



Snapback time


----------



## Don_Julio

gfuzz said:


> @Don_Julio
> 
> 
> 
> Snapback time


Nice!! Is this SnapBack??


----------



## gfuzz

@Don_Julio .... Rtf which has same ultivars


----------



## jcs43920

gfuzz said:


> @jcs43920 You sir speak the truth. When you're right you're right.


Thanks. And most of that truth is just from making mistakes and learning the hard way lol!


----------



## lawn-wolverine

gfuzz said:


> @oblique Yes, that picture does make it look like some old k31 type stuff. hmm... around and around I go lol. Dark green fine texture please. I don't have the time to create test plots or pot different cultivars in my native soil and wait for them to mature... but wish I had thought of that in ummm... January!
> @lawn-wolverine I am also curious to see some up close pictures of mature 4th mill mowed tightly. I've seen several pictures of people that have mixes containing 4th, but none of them are actually up close or seem to be below 3"hoc.


Yes! Exactly!


----------



## lawndog

oblique said:


> gfuzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> @oblique I agree with what you just said.... If you look at my last post, youll also see that Firecracker G-LS looks great on ntep. So I go in circles. I personally am looking to purchase approx 50lbs, which will leave me enough to spot seed any areas that I need, and also for a spring overseed / spot seed... as well. Pricing is very reasonable on all the seeds, I just want to know which one to pick lol. If you want to mix, I mean ordering multiple 10lbs bags at once wouldn't be horrible -- I don't actually know the size of your project, just using that as an example.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I'm the same too I keep going in circles lol. Well my project might be a little more extensive this year. Long story short I used a PRG/Fine Fescue/KBG mix from natureseed last year which looked awesome in the fall after the overseed:
> 
> 
> But with the drought this summer and I think the quality of the seed (It was a northwest mix) the majority of my yard is all dead now. I did water it but not as crazy as I did the previous year. A lot of what died is the PRG I'm assuming. This is the current look and it's worse in the front yard lol:
> 
> 
> So I think I will need 100 lbs because I'm actually doing more of a reseed in the yard than a true overseed this year.
> To make matters worse I bought more of that seed early this spring and now can't return it. So after I switch to a tall fescue this fall I'm hoping that's the last of my lawn seed journey.
Click to expand...

That's not a dead lawn, it's gone completely dormant. Given enough water, most if not all of it will return without any issues. I'm also in Ma and we've had a brutal summer with almost no rainfall.


----------



## oblique

lawndog said:


> That's not a dead lawn, it's gone completely dormant. Given enough water, most if not all of it will return without any issues. I'm also in Ma and we've had a brutal summer with almost no rainfall.


Well this picture was taken a few weeks ago. Now that whole section is dead dead. I was raking it 2 days ago and it's all hay now lol I decided to stop watering until the fall season (September). I do have a side yard that is mostly shaded by trees and that section just needs water and should spring back no problem. I'm still going to overseed it heavy with some tall fescue in a few weeks after I aerate it though.


----------



## oblique

gfuzz said:


> @Don_Julio
> 
> 
> 
> Snapback time


Yea this does look pretty good. I'm sure the snapback won't be that bad. I'm kinda stuck on the new Titanium G-LS still, The tech sheet says it's very dark, is G-leaf spot resistant and low-mow ability. If the prices weren't still crazy high I would get snapback and the Titanium G-LS. But I'll try just one this year and if it doesn't come in great I'll overseed with the other one next season. FYI I found a coupon code on United Seeds facebook page "antelope22" it takes 10% off. Which is better than nothing with the current seed prices at the moment.


----------



## thin_concrete

Wow - that Snap Back RR looks fantastic. I have a section of my front yard (all Rhizing Moon) that went dormant with the drought, but a couple of days or rain and it's already starting to bounce back. I wonder if a light dose of the Snap Back would harm anything. Thoughts?

I love the color of the RM and the way it feels under foot, but wouldn't mind a bit more drought tolerance, though I'm not sure anything could've done well with such little rain here. I'm not sure if the SB does anything for drought tolerance.


----------



## BigRedGun

So, I read this thread previously, and had my heart set on Snap Back for my reno. I went down to United Seeds and talked to some guys there and my mind was changed for a few reasons. First, although the color is dark, they explained it does have a wider blade. Not K31 wide, but not thin. The BarRobusto is what makes that wider. BarRobusto is used in the Barenbrug Turf Saver RTF, which I bought a 50lb bag of last year. It is definitely wider, but not builder grade TTTF/K31 wide, which I also have to compare to. The RTF also contains Bonfire. Snap Back contains "No Net", which is Jacklin (Barenbrug) Flame. Flame is fine leaf, but in the Snap Back mix you get a 50/50 ratio. RTF is closer to 60/40.

The other thing that was explained to me is that the cultivars that make up Snap Back are older. So, if you want the new hotness, go with Super Turf I. It is a finer texture. I am trying out the Super Turf I in a small area this year. I am also using the rest of my RTF bag on an area of my yard I did some dirt work on. So, I'm going to do a side by side (sort of) comparison. I should have some pretty good data in a couple months, and then next spring and summer when I make my decision for what to use on my reno.

I'm thinking Super Turf I with swapping out the Titanium LS for the Titanium GLS, would be a great mix. I guess we will see.


----------



## lawn-wolverine

BigRedGun said:


> So, I read this thread previously, and had my heart set on Snap Back for my reno. I went down to United Seeds and talked to some guys there and my mind was changed for a few reasons. First, although the color is dark, they explained it does have a wider blade. Not K31 wide, but not thin. The BarRobusto is what makes that wider. BarRobusto is used in the Barenbrug Turf Saver RTF, which I bought a 50lb bag of last year. It is definitely wider, but not builder grade TTTF/K31 wide, which I also have to compare to. The RTF also contains Bonfire. Snap Back contains "No Net", which is Jacklin (Barenbrug) Flame. Flame is fine leaf, but in the Snap Back mix you get a 50/50 ratio. RTF is closer to 60/40.
> 
> The other thing that was explained to me is that the cultivars that make up Snap Back are older. So, if you want the new hotness, go with Super Turf I. It is a finer texture. I am trying out the Super Turf I in a small area this year. I am also using the rest of my RTF bag on an area of my yard I did some dirt work on. So, I'm going to do a side by side (sort of) comparison. I should have some pretty good data in a couple months, and then next spring and summer when I make my decision for what to use on my reno.
> 
> I'm thinking Super Turf I with swapping out the Titanium LS for the Titanium GLS, would be a great mix. I guess we will see.


I want to thank you for sharing your research. You are researching and you are scientifically curious about the better varieties. This is great!
Although I am not currently a TTTF guy (living in the U.P. of Michigan, I do KBG), I earnestly look out for my bro-in-law and others, mainly in thee transition zone (zone 6-7). I continue to be intrigued/fascinated by the potential of '4th Millenium.' I sure would appreciate any further exploration of this variety or comments from this group on that variety.
Is there a reason that you have not been more aggressive on sowing this variety (4th Millenium) ?


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## oblique

BigRedGun said:


> So, I read this thread previously, and had my heart set on Snap Back for my reno. I went down to United Seeds and talked to some guys there and my mind was changed for a few reasons. First, although the color is dark, they explained it does have a wider blade. Not K31 wide, but not thin. The BarRobusto is what makes that wider. BarRobusto is used in the Barenbrug Turf Saver RTF, which I bought a 50lb bag of last year. It is definitely wider, but not builder grade TTTF/K31 wide, which I also have to compare to. The RTF also contains Bonfire. Snap Back contains "No Net", which is Jacklin (Barenbrug) Flame. Flame is fine leaf, but in the Snap Back mix you get a 50/50 ratio. RTF is closer to 60/40.
> 
> The other thing that was explained to me is that the cultivars that make up Snap Back are older. So, if you want the new hotness, go with Super Turf I. It is a finer texture. I am trying out the Super Turf I in a small area this year. I am also using the rest of my RTF bag on an area of my yard I did some dirt work on. So, I'm going to do a side by side (sort of) comparison. I should have some pretty good data in a couple months, and then next spring and summer when I make my decision for what to use on my reno.
> 
> I'm thinking Super Turf I with swapping out the Titanium LS for the Titanium GLS, would be a great mix. I guess we will see.


Wow thanks for the additional info on Snap Back! Yea Super Turf I swapped with Titanium GLS in it would be the best mix to go with if it was out this season. United seeds said on their facebook page that it won't be in any of the mixes this season just the straight variety. I'm assuming it will be in the Super Turf I blend for next season though. 
Also@lawn-wolverine 4th millennium is in the Super Turf I mix so that seems like the best all around mix.


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## gfuzz

@BigRedGun that is literally the best possible info besides growing them all myself. Thank you. That's great to know


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## BigRedGun

Not a problem. I figured I would want to know that information.


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## BigRedGun

So I am doing a little experiment since this has come up in my research for dark TTTF. Granted, it will only be an experiment of one, but I will be able to compare both blends side by side. 
This plot of Right of Way was seeded with Super Turf I blend. This doesn't have the Titanium GLS, but the guys said you won't see the difference between GLS and LS II.



This plot is seeded with Barenbrug Turf Saver RTF. I know it's not Snap Back, but it's similar and they both share the BarRobusto cultivar mixed with other Jacklin/Barenbrug cultivars. I also had a bag leftover from last year that I wanted to use up.



Once it gets mature, I'll post back on this thread. You can follow along on my lawn journal thread if you want.


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## gfuzz

@BigRedGun Let the games begin! Look forward to the progression and results.


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## Don_Julio

:thumbup:


gfuzz said:


> @BigRedGun Let the games begin! Look forward to the progression and results.


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## NHlawn00

Can't wait to follow this.. next year I have to seed about 10-12ksqft.. was originally planning superturf II.. but now maybe SnapBack with some KBG mixed in. Can't wait to see how you guys do.


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## Don_Julio

NHlawn00 said:


> Can't wait to follow this.. next year I have to seed about 10-12ksqft.. was originally planning superturf II.. but now maybe SnapBack with some KBG mixed in. Can't wait to see how you guys do.


Funny, I have super turf II from last year. I'm overseeding my front lawn tomorrow with this years mix. I also purchased SnapBack for my backyard but too tired to overseed back there this season. I did a DIY underground irrigation on my front lawn and feel burnt. Maybe next week I will change my mind and throw down the SnapBack 😂


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## NHlawn00

Don_Julio said:


> NHlawn00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can't wait to follow this.. next year I have to seed about 10-12ksqft.. was originally planning superturf II.. but now maybe SnapBack with some KBG mixed in. Can't wait to see how you guys do.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, I have super turf II from last year. I'm overseeding my front lawn tomorrow with this years mix. I also purchased SnapBack for my backyard but too tired to overseed back there this season. I did a DIY underground irrigation on my front lawn and feel burnt. Maybe next week I will change my mind and throw down the SnapBack 😂
Click to expand...

Man, I've been playing musical chairs with my sprinklers.. I might need to plan out an irrigation system for next year before seeding the back. 30k sqft with sprinklers just sounds like a nightmare.


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## oblique

I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.


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## lawn-wolverine

oblique said:


> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.


Great! Please keep us updated.
Favor: could you please remind me of the varieties in the 'Super Turf I" 
👍


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## Aaron365

oblique said:


> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.


Why would you use Super Turf I vs Super Turf II? What benefits does it have on a home lawn vs Super Turf II?


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## oblique

lawn-wolverine said:


> oblique said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.
> 
> 
> 
> Great! Please keep us updated.
> Favor: could you please remind me of the varieties in the 'Super Turf I"
> 👍
Click to expand...

Will do! If I remember I'll try to update with pictures in the next coming weeks after I do the overseeding.
The varieties in this seasons mix are: 4th Millennium SRP, Valkyrie LS, Dynamite GLS, and Titanium 2LS Turf Type Tall Fescue.


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## oblique

Aaron365 said:


> oblique said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you use Super Turf I vs Super Turf II? What benefits does it have on a home lawn vs Super Turf II?
Click to expand...

I went with Super Turf I Vs II because they are both the same but II includes 7% of Kentucky bluegrass. Since I already have some KBG in my current lawn I opted to just go all TTF. I'm hoping to transition to a full TTF lawn in the next coming seasons if things go right at the end of this season. I loved the KBG but it's a lot of upkeep with watering and after the severe drought we had in my state this year I wanted a grass that didn't need as much water as KBG demands.


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## lawn-wolverine

oblique said:


> Aaron365 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oblique said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you use Super Turf I vs Super Turf II? What benefits does it have on a home lawn vs Super Turf II?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I went with Super Turf I Vs II because they are both the same but II includes 7% of Kentucky bluegrass. Since I already have some KBG in my current lawn I opted to just go all TTF. I'm hoping to transition to a full TTF lawn in the next coming seasons if things go right at the end of this season. I loved the KBG but it's a lot of upkeep with watering and after the severe drought we had in my state this year I wanted a grass that didn't need as much water as KBG demands.
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense. Yours sounds "perfect" to me.
Excited to hear updates. Happy watering !


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## Aaron365

oblique said:


> Aaron365 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> oblique said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you use Super Turf I vs Super Turf II? What benefits does it have on a home lawn vs Super Turf II?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I went with Super Turf I Vs II because they are both the same but II includes 7% of Kentucky bluegrass. Since I already have some KBG in my current lawn I opted to just go all TTF. I'm hoping to transition to a full TTF lawn in the next coming seasons if things go right at the end of this season. I loved the KBG but it's a lot of upkeep with watering and after the severe drought we had in my state this year I wanted a grass that didn't need as much water as KBG demands.
Click to expand...

This makes sense. Here is Cincinnati, things change all of the time. Last year I put down Titanium 2LS, this year was 4th Millennium, but next year I think I am going back to 100% TTTF with the blend of Super Turf I. Thanks for the great info!


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## FailedLawn

@oblique

I had a midnight, moonlight, bewitched lawn about 12 years ago. I was working out of state at the time and it was impossible to maintain with my work schedule.

I switched to tttf from hogan around that time, but still struggle to keep up with it. Bentgrass and Poa have taken their toll on my lawn so I'm renovating again. I'm breaking the renovation into 3 years to make it more manageable.

This year I'm doing my front lawn and installed irrigation. Not having to manually water will make a world of difference on turf quality. I'm seeding super turf 1 in the front tomorrow and overseeding my side yard. Next year the side will get the full renovation along with 1/2 of my back yard.


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## lawn-wolverine

FailedLawn said:


> @oblique
> 
> I had a midnight, moonlight, bewitched lawn about 12 years ago. I was working out of state at the time and it was impossible to maintain with my work schedule.
> 
> I switched to tttf from hogan around that time, but still struggle to keep up with it. Bentgrass and Poa have taken their toll on my lawn so I'm renovating again. I'm breaking the renovation into 3 years to make it more manageable.
> 
> This year I'm doing my front lawn and installed irrigation. Not having to manually water will make a world of difference on turf quality. I'm seeding super turf 1 in the front tomorrow and overseeding my side yard. Next year the side will get the full renovation along with 1/2 of my back yard.


I hope that you keep us up on how it is going! And best wishes on your project!


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## BigRedGun

oblique said:


> I pulled the trigger on Super Turf I it should be here tomorrow. I figured since Super Turf I's blend this season includes mostly A-list seeds, the results should be good and hopefully it has a dark green color in my zone. Thanks to @BigRedGun for helping me make my decision. We'll see how it comes out in a few weeks. Maybe I'll do a light overseed with the Titanium GLS for next year if need be.


That's a good idea!


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## BigRedGun

FailedLawn said:


> @oblique
> 
> I had a midnight, moonlight, bewitched lawn about 12 years ago. I was working out of state at the time and it was impossible to maintain with my work schedule.
> 
> I switched to tttf from hogan around that time, but still struggle to keep up with it. Bentgrass and Poa have taken their toll on my lawn so I'm renovating again. I'm breaking the renovation into 3 years to make it more manageable.
> 
> This year I'm doing my front lawn and installed irrigation. Not having to manually water will make a world of difference on turf quality. I'm seeding super turf 1 in the front tomorrow and overseeding my side yard. Next year the side will get the full renovation along with 1/2 of my back yard.


I thought about doing that. I measure out my area with one of the satellite measuring websites and it says I'm looking at 10k for my reno next year. I may just bite the bullet and do it all at once instead. That will be a winter planning session though. My neighbor is thinking about the same thing with his 8k. I told him we could do both at the same time. Man, that's going to be a lot of work, but it will be fun.


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## FailedLawn

@BigRedGun

For me, small sections should be more fruitful and manageable. My lawn is small, but broken into 3 distinct sections that are separated by fencing, sidewalks, and driveway.

My backyard is going to be split up with temporary fencing primarily to keep my dogs off. They like to dig, especially in fresh dirt. The muddy paws is a concern of mine.

My dogs are jerks and I know they will screw with me and the baby grass.


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## lawn-wolverine

FailedLawn said:


> @BigRedGun
> 
> For me, small sections should be more fruitful and manageable. My lawn is small, but broken into 3 distinct sections that are separated by fencing, sidewalks, and driveway.
> 
> My backyard is going to be split up with temporary fencing primarily to keep my dogs off. They like to dig, especially in fresh dirt. The muddy paws is a concern of mine.
> 
> My dogs are jerks and I know they will screw with me and the baby grass.


All dogs conspire against lawn lovers. It's just the way the universe is structured.
It gets worse when stupid owners of dogs (ones that have a vendetta against nice lawns and harbor resentment)…roll by with plastic bags-in-hand! They do not realize (or care) that dog pee mars turf in a major way. They feel like carrying a plastic bag solves their offensive dog (it doesn't).


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## FailedLawn

@lawn-wolverine

I've had much less poop left in my lawn since installing surveillance cameras. I actually have tripwires set that screen grabs and sends me a notification anytime something steps off of my front sidewalk into the lawn.

If urine is a problem, I will see if I can figure out a relay for my irrigation zone. My security NRV has event based alarm output so it should be pretty easy to configure a relay to run a 5 minute cycle. 😄


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## lawn-wolverine

FailedLawn said:


> @lawn-wolverine
> 
> I've had much less poop left in my lawn since installing surveillance cameras. I actually have tripwires set that screen grabs and sends me a notification anytime something steps off of my front sidewalk into the lawn.
> 
> If urine is a problem, I will see if I can figure out a relay for my irrigation zone. My security NRV has event based alarm output so it should be pretty easy to configure a relay to run a 5 minute cycle. 😄


I am in complete ADMIRATION of your technological prowess !👍
Yea, my fantasy is a urine moisture sensor that would set off a truck air horn-from-Hell of about 140 dB., secret mounted in my forsythia shrub. Dog and their owners wouldn't want to come within a block away…maybe CARRY their dog 🐩 by my house!🤣


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## oblique

FailedLawn said:


> @oblique
> 
> I had a midnight, moonlight, bewitched lawn about 12 years ago. I was working out of state at the time and it was impossible to maintain with my work schedule.
> 
> I switched to tttf from hogan around that time, but still struggle to keep up with it. Bentgrass and Poa have taken their toll on my lawn so I'm renovating again. I'm breaking the renovation into 3 years to make it more manageable.
> 
> This year I'm doing my front lawn and installed irrigation. Not having to manually water will make a world of difference on turf quality. I'm seeding super turf 1 in the front tomorrow and overseeding my side yard. Next year the side will get the full renovation along with 1/2 of my back yard.


Awesome! Yes setting up irrigation is really the key to my problem too, hopefully I can do that next year. I have 3 sections for my yard, the front, back and a large side yard. I'm going to focus the overseed a lot on the front and back since that's where most of the grass died this summer. But also going to do a heavy overseed on the side yard. Since the side yard has more shade it seems to be rebounding with every sporadic rainfall we get. But I plan on chomping the ground really heavy when I aerate it in another week by going over it multiple times (was suggested in a youtube video if you want the overseed to take better). We see how it goes, but I'll definite update my progress.


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