# First spring after Full Renovation



## sheiraas (Jun 6, 2019)

So there are a ton of posts on doing a full reno but not much on the followup the next spring. This was my first reno I did last fall. I did a complete kill and seed of 70% KBG 30% PRG. By the end of fall everything was pretty well filled in with a few bare spots where I killed some quack that came back. I ended the season reel mowing at 3/4 inch. This is my first time going very short and reel mowing. What can expect this spring? I currently have 2 plus feet of snow on the ground so I am looking to start planning my 2020 season. I probably wont see the grass until the end of march or early April. A few of my big questions are do I do a pre emergent this spring as I may have some thin areas that will need seed. Do I use a PGR the first full season or should I let it thicken up for one year. I will be mowing every 2 to 3 days and I have irrigation. Should I push it hard with N in the spring to help it get going? I did the fall blitz with Urea and that went well. I have a few areas that could use some slight leveling. Can this been done in the spring with thin light layers or sandy loam soil? I'd like to get it completely level before I start using sand only. Thanks for all you suggestions!!


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Hey I was in the same boat last year, although mine was pretty thin this time in 2019. I think the answer to all your questions are:

*yes* (pre em) as long as you are not doing any more seeding this winter or spring.
*sure, if you want* (PGR). I used it last season and it was great.
*100% YES* (feeding). I gave by bluegrass a ton of food last year and it loved it. It spread and filled in like mad. Pics below.

The last thing I would add is you may want to have a fungicide plan on hand. Young lawn can be vulnerable and if you are pushing the N + wet spring you would want to be prepared

April:





June:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Do the PreM and there is no need for seed since you have kbg. Apply between 0.20 and 0.25lb of fast N/ksqft weekly. It will fill in.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

gm560 said:


> Hey I was in the same boat last year, although mine was pretty thin this time in 2019. I think the answer to all your questions are:
> 
> *yes* (pre em) as long as you are not doing any more seeding this winter or spring.
> *sure, if you want* (PGR). I used it last season and it was great.
> ...


That fill in is impressive


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

@sheiraas Really glad you brought this up as I'm in the same boat as well, except I put down a full PRG lawn. My mistake ha. Your spread and fill-in is fantastic! I'm going to overseed in the Fall with KBG & TTTF to supplement the PRG.

1. So along with those questions, if I plan on overseeding come Sept. how much Prodiamine should I put down starting in April? I'm basically looking for 6 months of coverage (Apr-Sept.) or would it be just 5 months of coverage so it's clear of the soil by Sept? I like the idea of split apps but wondering if I can even do that now? Or just stay just one round in April and hold off until after I overseed?

2. @g-man you're suggesting around .25/sq/ft of N weekly. I used Urea last year so I'll go back to that just for price alone. My next question is, when? Do I start that when I start the Prodiamine when soil temps get around 50deg or so? And along with that, with a new lawn, am I ending the N and any other ferts around June?

3. My fall soil test showed I was slightly low on P & K. Can I supplement the Nitrogen with a fertilizer to bring those levels up? And if so, when would I start putting that down and what type of rate am I looking at?

Thanks for this post and the follow ups!


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

g-man said:


> Do the PreM and there is no need for seed since you have kbg. Apply between 0.20 and 0.25lb of fast N/ksqft weekly. It will fill in.


I heard that you should not load up on fertilizer early spring as it can encourage poa? Is this true?

I am in the same boat as OP, I seeded last spring and did the fall nitorgen blitz. I have prodiamine which I will put down very soon.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

john5246 said:


> I heard that you should not load up on fertilizer early spring as it can encourage poa? Is this true?


If you have a history of it, it might be a problem. But Tenacity can do a decent job of preventing it.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

1. If you want your overseed to be successful, do a 3-4 rate only. The charts in the label are to be able to still have control (I'm assuming 80% control or more). Don't take a risk and waste money with seeds that won't grow. If any crabgrass pops up, it should be minimal that had pulling will work.

2) when? Easy, when it needs it.  I think it is best to wait until it is growing. Give it at least one mow and maybe two. Each yard is different in how it reacts. If you notice too much grow, then back off. If it looks like it is not growing, then do more frequent. If it gets too hot, start to back off. I'm sorry I'm being fairly vague, but it is subjective.

3. If you need P and K, then add them. Start at green up. I wrote a soil remediation guideline to help with rates.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

john5246 said:


> I heard that you should not load up on fertilizer early spring as it can encourage poa? Is this true?


I don't know if it is true in regards to POA a. I know too much spring N will deplete the carbohydrates stored in the roots.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

g-man said:


> I know too much spring N will deplete the carbohydrates stored in the roots.


I've heard the same thing and am trying to understand this concept. If the 'optimum soil temps for root growth' occurs between 50-65 degrees, why would the plant react differently in the spring than the fall? I'm sure there's a reason, nature always seems to have one... but i'm looking at 4 weeks +/- before the lawn really starts pumping growth. If this feeding doesn't cause top growth then aren't the roots the beneficiaries of this nitrogen? If not, then a Round 1 nitrogen feed is a waste and I've seen Matt and Pete both say their programs start with a 0.75-1 #N in early-mid Feb. And if the roots are the beneficiaries in the spring as well then throwing down that N during Round 1 would be the smart thing to do, before laying off the fert going into the subsequent rounds. Just thinking out loud.

Here's how the soil temps lay out relative to my rounds:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Root mass growth is not equal to carbohydrates storage.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

corneliani said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > I know too much spring N will deplete the carbohydrates stored in the roots.
> ...


my plan is to put down 24-0-11 Lesco brand fert at half the bag rate to get things started. This will be after the prodiamine app. After that I might do some urea to keep up with the nitrogen requirements. The reason being heavy rains in the spring wash the fert downhill (my whole property is on a slope).

In june i'm going to go ahead and apply some Azoxy (scotts disease ex) or propiconizole as a preventative app since I had leaf spot in june. By July rust had taken over and left my lawn mower and my shoes orange everytime I walked through.

So June 1st probably Propiconizole 
July 1st Scotts Disease Ex (usually on sale by this point too!)

August can get a slow release fert and it will be the last before we get ready for Fall Nitrogen Blitz. 
Might sneak in some miloganite at some point as well.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

corneliani said:


> If the 'optimum soil temps for root growth' occurs between 50-65 degrees, why would the plant react differently in the spring than the fall? I'm sure there's a reason, nature always seems to have one... but i'm looking at 4 weeks +/- before the lawn really starts pumping growth. If this feeding doesn't cause top growth then aren't the roots the beneficiaries of this nitrogen? If not, then a Round 1 nitrogen feed is a waste and I've seen Matt and Pete both say their programs start with a 0.75-1 #N in early-mid Feb. And if the roots are the beneficiaries in the spring as well then throwing down that N during Round 1 would be the smart thing to do, before laying off the fert going into the subsequent rounds. Just thinking out loud.


I think your thought process is sound...I have the same theory.

The only difference is probably that in Spring, the temps are rising and days are getting longer, whereas in Fall, they're cooling and getting shorter. This may signal to the plant to store more carbs in Fall and do a bit less growing, versus a bit less carbs in late Winter/early Spring and to get ready for a bit more growing. Just thinking out loud, as well.

In the transition zone, there is less of a dormancy period, so it makes sense that if the root mass growth period this time of year is long and drawn out, the fert will get used more for roots.

VA Tech actually claims that this is sound reasoning:

*"From a practical standpoint, a total nitrogen (N) application rate of 0.5 to 1 lb N/1000 sq ft during the late winter to mid-spring months can benefit root development and enhance spring greening. The key to success is in keeping away from the "if a little is good, more is better" philosophy." - https://ext.vt.edu/lawn-garden/turfandgardentips/tips/spring_fertility.html*

But I've never heard anyone else claim it. However, it does sound reasonable to me. The fact that guys like Pete do a feeding early, makes sense in this context. I think the trick is just to avoid more than a very small amount of fast release N, because it does not need much this time of year. 0.5 lb of N sounds like too much to me (assuming it's water soluble; maybe they meant slow release).

Our Winter this year is/was like a typical transition zone Winter: lots of 40s and 50s for highs and inconsistent ground freeze and dormancy. Therefore, greenup will be quicker this year (assuming it does not suddenly get cold during March, which it's not supposed fo).

I will be experimenting with an early N app on a rest plot to see what it does. Sometime in March.


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