# Quinclorac, Tenacity, or Glyphosate



## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

Here's the situation. My back yard is composed mostly of weeds at this point. In the summer months, I have a nice green crabgrass lawn with bits and pieces of centipede and bermuda mixed in. In the winter, it's a combination of a salad bar and dirt/mud. I sprayed Prodiamine last fall to help with the poa annua that I typically deal with in the spring. It helped some, but with bare dirt you can't expect any miracles. I know this will be a multi-year fight.

My plan for this year is to get rid of the crabgrass so I can seed bermuda. I know that the crabgrass will start sprouting soon and that I will have to wait a couple months yet to put down my bermuda seed. Also, while I don't particular like centipede, there's enough of it there that I don't want to kill it off and make my seeding job any harder than necessary. I'm ok with having two different grass types for now. I mainly want to get rid of my crabgrass invasion but I do have lots of other weeds to a lesser extent in the yard as well such as dallisgrass, nimblewill, dichondra, creeping charlie, and oxalis. I have Quinclorac, Tenacity, and Glyphosate at my disposal for getting rid of the undesirable weeds/grasses. Which would you choose to have the best success rate both with growing seed and not killing the existing grass?

Quinclorac I know targets crabgrass and will for sure eliminate that problem. But I don't know how well it interacts with centipede or if it's effective against any of the other weeds listed above.

Tenacity will work on crabgrass and likely several (if not all) of the other weeds listed. But again I'm not sure how it interacts with centipede. I'm also not sure how the pre-m part of tenacity will stunt the bermuda from coming up.

Glyphosate will for sure give me a good kill but will also sacrifice any existing bermuda and centipede it touches.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If it looks pretty barren, I would just do a basic reno; no fallowing if you don't mind a mix. If you have some coverage and wish to keep what you have, seed the bermuda and fix the crabgrass later. If you apply tenacity or quinclorac, there are reseed intervals so keep that in mind.

With glyphosate, you can spray today and seed the same day if you want. I usually like to wait for the next day so any glyphosate can dry on the leaves of what's there and you don't track it into other locations. One app of gly doesn't normally kill bermuda but it'll take care of most other weeds and all the crabgrass. Even 3-4 apps might not kill it all. One app will stunt it for sure and make it quite unhappy but you are overseeding more anyway so whatever comes back is fine if it does or doesn't. Just be sure to plan timing when it is optimal growth period in the spring so the seed has the best chance to germinate and start spreading.

As for centipede vs bermuda, centipede prefers a low ph but bermuda can do much better at a higher ph. If you are seeding bermuda, you should probably bring up the ph and forget about having centipede. Perhaps, do a soil test to see what amendments you need and start there until you seed.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

It's pretty barren right now, but by the time I'm ready to seed the bermuda I'll have a thick carpet of crabgrass to contend with. It's definitely not something I can fix later. Unless by "fix", you're talking about spring pre-emergents.

I've yet to have my soil tested. It's definitely on the to-do list, though. I'm not sure if it makes any difference but the majority of my back yard contains the drain field for my septic tank. I would think that whatever pH that soils in/around drain fields tend to be would be difficult to change.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

quattljl said:


> It's pretty barren right now, but by the time I'm ready to seed the bermuda I'll have a thick carpet of crabgrass to contend with. It's definitely not something I can fix later. Unless by "fix", you're talking about spring pre-emergents.
> 
> I've yet to have my soil tested. It's definitely on the to-do list, though. I'm not sure if it makes any difference but the majority of my back yard contains the drain field for my septic tank. I would think that whatever pH that soils in/around drain fields tend to be would be difficult to change.


I would wait until you are ready to seed and not worry about stopping the crabgrass from germinating. One week or so before you seed, spray a mix of glyphosate, quinclorac, AMS, and NIS. The day before you seed, do a spray of glyphosate, AMS, NIS. That should take care of the crabgrass and many other weeds too. The day you seed, run a veriticutter or dethatcher over the area to help remove excessive dead plant material and rough up the soil for the seed. Don't worry if the crabgrass still has a little green left to it, it'll be done soon and as it fades away, your new grass will pop up.

If you prefer not to blanket glyphosate, perhaps others here may have more suitable suggestions to help manage crabgrass while seeding.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

How big is the area? Don't set yourself up for failure. Skip the seed and the disappointment. Sod the lawn and be done. You might be surprised with the cost comparisons and labor when you factor in all aspects from trying to grow warm season grasses from seed.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I would wait until you are ready to seed and not worry about stopping the crabgrass from germinating. One week or so before you seed, spray a mix of glyphosate, quinclorac, AMS, and NIS. The day before you seed, do a spray of glyphosate, AMS, NIS. That should take care of the crabgrass and many other weeds too. The day you seed, run a veriticutter or dethatcher over the area to help remove excessive dead plant material and rough up the soil for the seed. Don't worry if the crabgrass still has a little green left to it, it'll be done soon and as it fades away, your new grass will pop up.
> 
> If you prefer not to blanket glyphosate, perhaps others here may have more suitable suggestions to help manage crabgrass while seeding.


I'm definitely not worried about stopping the crabgrass from germinating. I know the timelines for crabgrass germination and bermuda germination don't match up and it's unavoidable. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Thanks for the tips. I'll keep all that in mind as I get ready to prepare the soil.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

high leverage said:


> How big is the area? Don't set yourself up for failure. Skip the seed and the disappointment. Sod the lawn and be done. You might be surprised with the cost comparisons and labor when you factor in all aspects from trying to grow warm season grasses from seed.


My back yard is about 5k sqft. Maybe 1k sqft already has actual grass. Sodding is out of the question. I already have the chems in my arsenal to kill the crabgrass and it's only a couple hundred bucks tops for the seed. Sod would run me nearly 3-4 grand not including install. That's way out of my price range right now.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

quattljl said:


> high leverage said:
> 
> 
> > How big is the area? Don't set yourself up for failure. Skip the seed and the disappointment. Sod the lawn and be done. You might be surprised with the cost comparisons and labor when you factor in all aspects from trying to grow warm season grasses from seed.
> ...


You need to find a different sod supplier. I can get 4000 sq. ft for $1000 here in Oklahoma for Common on and $1,400 for Latitude 36. If you want it done right you install it yourself.

I do this commercially and would never attempt to seed warm season turf. Sprig or sod only. The failure rate is far too high.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If you aren't opposed to it, I would do a soil test to see if there are any glaring problems.

This sounds like a fun project! Whichever route you go, keep us updated!! Can't wait to see the results!


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

I would get a 25lb bag of PRG from hancock seed ($60) and a pro-plugger ($40). This spring, seed the PRG and water it to get it reasonably established. It likely won't survive because spring seedings suck, but it'll give you some ground cover so your lawn doesn't wash away. Then clean up your bermuda with Celsius, start taking plugs from the good bermuda, and plant them in the PRG. Push top growth with high fertilizer rates to get the bermuda to spread. You can easily kill off the PRG once the bermuda gets acceptably thick.

If you seed bermuda without achieving a full kill on your old bermuda first, you'll have a blend of two bermudas which is unlikely to match, resulting in a patchy lawn.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

My thoughts, smoke everything but the bermuda. Let the bermuda spead and take over. Controlling grassy weeds during a seedy grow-in are challenging; see @Tellycoleman , @J_nick , and @Colonel K0rn

Put down prodiamine or dithiopyr now.

If your lawn is dormant, broadcast app of glyphosate.

The centipede is going to get damaged by an app of quinclorac.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

high leverage said:


> You need to find a different sod supplier. I can get 4000 sq. ft for $1000 here in Oklahoma for Common on and $1,400 for Latitude 36. If you want it done right you install it yourself.
> 
> I do this commercially and would never attempt to seed warm season turf. Sprig or sod only. The failure rate is far too high.


I should also point out that if I were to use sod, I would choose Zoysia. That's what the quote was for and I'm sure there's a price difference. Since it would take forever and a day to grow Zoysia from seed, not to mention the limited options, I'm settling for Bermuda.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If you aren't opposed to it, I would do a soil test to see if there are any glaring problems.
> 
> This sounds like a fun project! Whichever route you go, keep us updated!! Can't wait to see the results!


A soil test will definitely be done. I'm not going for perfection, but I'm excited to have real grass in my back yard. The real determination of success or failure will come next fall/winter when I either have a dormant lawn or a mud pit for yet another year.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I'll chime in and say that I am super happy that I decided to smoke my yard, and seed with a cultivar that worked for my climate. I'll throw these pictures in here for grins and giggles.

This was my lawn 5 days ago. This is from my partially-failed renovation that I did from seed in August of 2017. Had I done it the "right" way, then I would have waited until Spring to seed. I couldn't afford the cost of sodding my yard. The awesome thing about my cultivar is that it seems like it really doesn't mind the colder weather we get here in Savannah. It never went completely dormant. 

This is growth that has taken place over the past 4 months, which was the last time I mowed it. 


That being said, here's 2 pictures of my lawn, exactly 1 year apart. The first one is my yard when I didn't know about Specticle Flo, and everything that you see that's green is Poa Annua. I didn't have a fully grown-in yard until July. The second picture is my yard today, just after my scalp I completed.





If it was me, I'd totally do it again from seed, and keep the cash in your pocket, or put it into an irrigation system(if you don't have one). Sure, some people like the "boom, instant yard" look, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's purists who like to do woodworking with nothing but hand tools, and sneer at people who use power tools.

Regardless of how you want to achieve your end result, the simple fact is that you're going to have sweat equity in your lawn if you want to be in that upper echelon of houses. I wanted to have the best-looking lawn in the subdivision, and I do. I have the least amount of weeds, and the most consistent overall color. I admire it, and I have had a lot of people pay compliments, and I appreciate it because I did put a lot of work in it, and if they lived nearby, they saw the progression over the year.

I'd recommend smoking everything with roundup x 2/3, two weeks apart, start with a clean slate, throw down your seed of choice, and nurture it. Treat your weeds as they appear with PostM, get your PreM down in the Fall. It's going to make your lawn life much easier if you just have 1 grass type in your lawn, be it zoysia, bermuda, centipede, etc instead of a mutt yard with a side of salad.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

high leverage said:


> How big is the area? Don't set yourself up for failure. Skip the seed and the disappointment. Sod the lawn and be done. You might be surprised with the cost comparisons and labor when you factor in all aspects from trying to grow warm season grasses from seed.


Couldn't agree more. I'd like to add on to this that if you can only afford irrigation OR sod, do the irrigation first, and wait a year to do sod.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

@Colonel K0rn what cultivar is that and where did you get the seed?


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## jonthepain (May 5, 2018)

I concur with the Colonel.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@quattljl What did you decide to do? Seed? Sprig? Sod it? Put in irrigation?


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

@Movingshrub I'm going to glyphosate the crabgrass and other weeds and throw down hard with some seed. There's no money in the budget for sod or irrigation. I'll just drag hoses around as needed.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Understood. You're in for an uphill battle seeding bermuda. Best of luck!


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

I've grown in Riviera Bermuda from seed like @Colonel K0rn and others here. It is really not hard at all and MUCH cheaper than sod.

Prep work is key. Kill everything off first and foremost. Then I used a dethatcher to remove as much dead grass/weeds as I could - which left a lot of dirt for the seed. Also, you can run an aerator over the yard multiple times to break up the dirt as well.

Throw out your seed and work it into the dirt a little bit. I'd probably suggest spraying an insecticide as well (ants were taking my seed and making ant mounds from it).

Water it every day.. just enough to moisten the soil. Do as many times necessary in a day. I seeded when temps were around 90F every day.. and I watered 4 times a day and it grew in very well. I did a 5am, 9am, 1pm, and 5pm type schedule. Did not water through the night.

I hand picked the weeds, but I did a small 1000sq ft section. After a month or so, you could spray if you wanted to kill some weeds.

1. Prep work.
2. Water Water Water
3. Fertilizer (I did weekly spoon feedings of Ammonium Sulfate).

That's my opinion on the matter. Probably a million other ways to grow in seed, but I did not find it challenging. Now if I ran a business and was relying on somebody else to keep it watered (after I did the work to get the seed down), I'd probably not enjoy it or recommend it. Cause most people don't water correctly.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

You'll do fine with seed. It's not as easy as fescue or rye, but definitely doable. It'll look great. Sod is waaaayyy too over priced if you have any area at all


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

I've seeded some smaller portions before with bermuda so I know it's doable. The hard part (other than weed pressure) will be keeping the dog off the lawn long enough for the grass to establish.


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## Way2low01 (Mar 9, 2019)

I seeded my Bermuda yard from scratch, bare dirt. No issues, came in great. I say go for it. I layed a small section of sod to help with erosion around the driveway and the front porch, but everything else was seeded. Water and nitrogen


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

@Way2low01 I hope mine turns out half as good as yours. That looks great!


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## Way2low01 (Mar 9, 2019)

Thank you!. Keeping up with the weeds was the tough part, hand picking those suckers all the time. Man Bermuda spreads like crazy with water and nitrogen. Super aggressive grass. I would gly the whole yard and start fresh with seed, you'll be just fine. I read how it was almost impossible to get a good yard from seed but I couldn't afford to sod 2 acres of grass so I took my chances. With a little patience and work, you'll get it done!


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## jonthepain (May 5, 2018)

When i was in the lawn business, we switched many lawns from fescue to bermudagrass by seeding. Always had great results.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

SCGrassMan said:


> What cultivar is that and where did you get the seed?


@SCGrassMan It's Royal Bengal, which I purchased from Hancock Seed.

I did some research into the cultivar that I thought would perform well in my climate, and I had similar NTEP results. The high heat, drought and saline condition tolerance description fits what I have to a T.

@quattljl I look forward to seeing your renovation take place. *DO NOT TILL YOUR EARTH* Be sure to take lots of pictures along the way, and if you can do it, get a harley rake to level out your seedbed as best as you can. I rented a Dingo for work, and they have a harley rake/power box rake attachment that you can use it with. That thing is an amazing piece of equipment, and as many bermuda lawn owners can attest to, the more level you can make your seed bed prior to putting down sod, or growing seed, your growing and mowing experience will be better.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

This project is finally getting kicked off. Two apps of glyphosate have been put down and I plan to seed this weekend. The link to my lawn journal is in my signature.


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## Michael 176 (May 1, 2019)

Hey guys I have been lurking awhile, this will be my first post. I'm getting ready to seed about 10ksqft of Yukon. I found this info about herbicide use on seedling bermuda and thought I would share it. https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/pubs/bermudagrassguide.pdf


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## sstatjm (Aug 7, 2019)

So would you say it's ok to mix quinclorac and tenacity together for cool season grass? I am will be overseeding on labor day weekend.


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## quattljl (Aug 8, 2018)

sstatjm said:


> So would you say it's ok to mix quinclorac and tenacity together for cool season grass? I am will be overseeding on labor day weekend.


If you are targeting crabgrass, there would be no need to combine those two. Tenacity is already labeled for crabgrass control (among many other things) and has pre-emergent benefits. Quinclorac is sort of a one trick pony with excellent post-emergent crabgrass control only.


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