# Surfactant Selection



## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I have seen many tools for weed identification, guidance on which herbicides work for which weeds in each type of turf, guidance on soil tests, etc., but I have yet to see any kind of tool which provide guidance on what type of surfactant to use.

I wish there was a tool that provided suggestions on which surfactant to use, with what herbicides, at what rates, for the target weeds, considering the type of turfgrass or ornamental application, the expected temperature, while providing the option to account for the pH of the water, the pH of the soil, with recommendations of any additives to reduce foam, prevent drift, and reduce discoloration and/or increase effectiveness (other herbicides to include in the mix, adding Fe, or N).

Before I spend way too much time researching this - does such a tool exist?

This is the closest I've seen http://siu-weeds.com/adjuvants/index-adj.html which provides basically a list by category (NIS, MSO, VCO, COC, etc.) of brand names, manufacturer, the surfactant agent, and some comments. I am sure the document is useful for some but I feel like it misses the mark for what I'm seeking, or my knowledge base isn't there to get value from the publication.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

I'll admit that mostly I forget to use a surfactant unless it's already mixed in and if I do remember it's always the Bonide spreader sticker that I have on hand.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Understood.

Just as an example - this is for a non-selective, kill everything approach, so it should be easy since you are not worried about damaging the turf.

Tank mix of glyphosate, fluazifop, and triclopyr
glyphosate - Tends to include a cationic surfactant, or use a NIS, and my understanding is that you don't mix COC or MSO with glyphosate; also recommended to use AMS in water prior to adding glyphosate
fluazifop - Label calls for NIS surfactant, but under the impression from the label COC can be used as well
triclopyr - The label doesn't say anything on surfactant selection; NIS, COC, or MSO?

What is an applicator to do in this case? Use NIS and call it a day? Split the applications into one of just glyphosate + AMS and then another of fluazifop, triclopyr with COC or MSO? Does the answer change when spraying in hot vs warm vs cool weather?


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

I use NIS unless the label specifically calls for something else. The only thing in my arsenal that calls for something else is Quinclorac, which calls for MSO.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I keep a non-ionic surfactant (NIS) and methylated seed oil (MSO) on hand, and just use the recommendations on the product labels to guide which/how much I use. For example:

_Use 0.25-0.5 percent v/v of a nonionic surfactant (1-2 quarts per 100 gallons of spray solution) for broadcast applications. For high volume applications, DO NOT exceed 1 quart of surfactant per acre. Use only nonionic surfactants that contain at least 80 percent active material._

_For maximum weed control with broadcast applications, add non-ionic surfactant (NIS) at recommended rate to the spray solution. For difficult-to-control weeds, add methylated seed oil (MSO) at a rate of 0.5-1% v/v to the spray solution._​
I haven't had to use any tank mixes that would require contradicting one label to meet the recommendation of another.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

https://www.invasive.org/gist/products/handbook/21.Adjuvants.pdf

This is the best resource I've found so far.


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## Sam23 (May 2, 2018)

I use FarmWorks Surfactant purchased from The Tractor Supply.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> I have seen many tools for weed identification, guidance on which herbicides work for which weeds in each type of turf, guidance on soil tests, etc., but I have yet to see any kind of tool which provide guidance on what type of surfactant to use.
> 
> I wish there was a tool that provided suggestions on which surfactant to use, with what herbicides, at what rates, for the target weeds, considering the type of turfgrass or ornamental application, the expected temperature, while providing the option to account for the pH of the water, the pH of the soil, with recommendations of any additives to reduce foam, prevent drift, and reduce discoloration and/or increase effectiveness (other herbicides to include in the mix, adding Fe, or N).
> 
> ...


The product label takes into account many of the things you mention. The manufacturer actually tests the stuff under a wide range of conditions and the label will tell you what works under the widest range.

The only time I've seen a need to "supplement" label recomendations is product that includes surfactant. They must sometimes use the cheapest they can find. If the results aren't up to expectation, I'll add either NIS or Agridex which is sort of a COC hybrid. I'm sure there's better and worse things to use but I know each of those and when to add each to a tank and what it will do.

The bottom line is experience and unfortunately there's no online pdf cheat sheet for that. Research as much as you can but at the end of the day, you're the one out there spraying and observing the result. There are only some certain set of common weeds and certain grass types where you are and it doesn't take long to learn by experience what works as desired and what doesn't. Always start with following the label recommendations.

If there's some specific weed you are having trouble with, I would bet a lot that someone on this forum has done battle with it. Or if a specific product isn't working as advertised, odds are someone has been there and knows what to start checking for. Just ask for suggestions for what works and what doesn't.

If you really want to get into the science of it just for the sake of learning, all the hebicides have their chemical formulas and (to the extent known) specific biological action in the plant out there as public information. You can figure out if, for example, ph is likely to have some effect or likely interactions with other herbicides and so on. You can also do testing. A lot of work, not my cup of tea but some folks really get into that.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> The only time I've seen a need to "supplement" label recomendations is product that includes surfactant. They must sometimes use the cheapest they can find.


It's hard for me to tell if poor results are due to a bad surfactant, applying in suboptimal conditions, or a resistance issue.

Like Ware alluded to, but hadn't encountered, there are tank mixes where there could potentially involve conflicting adjuvant recommendations.



Delmarva Keith said:


> The bottom line is experience and unfortunately there's no online pdf cheat sheet for that.


This is the answer I expected but just figured I would ask. I e-mailed the author of the "Compendium of Herbicide Adjuvants." I'm curious to see what response I receive, if any.

I would think between the turfgrass, golf, and ag industry, there would be a tool out there in order to maximize herbicide effectiveness; chemicals + application = money.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> I would think between the turfgrass, golf, and ag industry, there would be a tool out there in order to maximize herbicide effectiveness; chemicals + application = money.


Yes, that would be handy. It's just not always that "cookbook" in practice in the sense that, I can tell you a cookbook answer for zapping, say, dandelions but not for, say, ground ivy, wild violets or purple nutsedge. Just shouting "2-4d" in the general direction of a dandelion will pretty much kill it. I chuckle to myself when I see trials involving dandelions. Just about any way you try an effective herbicide on dandelions will fry them.

Ground ivy and wild violets would be maybe towards the other end of the spectrum. Triclopyr works well on ground ivy and wild violets . . . depending on time of year, coverage, effective surfactant, severity of infestation, often multiple applications and sometimes a little bit of luck.

Similar for purple nutsedge. You can line up ten guys who deal with purple nutsedge and get maybe ten different answers for exactly what works and what doesn't. One guy will swear by a particular chemical and surfactant while another guy with subtly different growing conditions and other basically unknowable factors will swear it had absolutely no effect.

Just the nature of the beast.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Ground ivy and wild violets would be maybe towards the other end of the spectrum. Triclopyr works well on ground ivy and wild violets . . . depending on time of year, coverage, effective surfactant, severity of infestation, often multiple applications and sometimes a little bit of luck.
> 
> Similar for purple nutsedge. You can line up ten guys who deal with purple nutsedge and get maybe ten different answers for exactly what works and what doesn't. One guy will swear by a particular chemical and surfactant while another guy with subtly different growing conditions and other basically unknowable factors will swear it had absolutely no effect.
> 
> Just the nature of the beast.


I think we are on the same page. For example, doing a blanket app of Celsius, the label suggests NIS but a MSO or COC can be used for harder to control weeds. So, if you do an app of Celsius at the medium rate + quinclorac + MSO on Bermuda grass, are you going to damage it at 85F? 95F? Maybe you're okay with the damage or discoloration because you just want the weeds gone. Is there a certain temp when you opt for the NIS instead of the MSO? I understand the easy answer is either use NIS or "use your own experience" and "results may vary."

With my blanket spray of glyphosate, fusillade, tenacity, and NIS, I sprayed three times, multiple weeks apart, and still had areas of bermuda or zoysia coming back. Was that due to the product not being as rainfast as I expected, bad application, resilient plants in general, combo of the above, and lastly, would I have had better results if I used a different adjuvant? I pose that as a rhetorical question just for example, but if you legitimately have an answer, I'm happy to hear it.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Ground ivy and wild violets would be maybe towards the other end of the spectrum. Triclopyr works well on ground ivy and wild violets . . . depending on time of year, coverage, effective surfactant, severity of infestation, often multiple applications and sometimes a little bit of luck.
> ...


You're 100% right and I can't give you an answer. For the gly cocktail, never used such a concoction and based on my experience, I would have said go with just amonium sulfate, gly and NIS or amonium sulfate, gly, triclopyr and NIS. Whenever using gly, there's the additional risk of ph and available minerals for chelation antagonizing effectiveness so I'd only mix with stuff I know has worked in the past. Would that absolutely guaranteed have worked under your specific circumstances? Probably but anyone who puports to guarantee it would be lying to you. All I can say for sure is next time you may need 4 apps, or maybe make sure you irrigate the soil regularly to keep the dying plants growing if you didn't do that.

For the Celcius, you're on exactly the right line of thought in the relationship between heat (plant stress) and which surfactant to choose to avoid injury to the desirable plants. The plant has to be able to metabolize and neutralize or otherwise deal with the dose of herbicide it gets or it will be injured. But there's no way to really know from a book or from afar what other stressors might be acting on your turf. Warm season turf "should" be able to handle a higher herbicide intake caused by hotter surfactants even at higher temps because as C4 plants, their metabolism does not slow as much even when it's warm (or what I would call roasting hot - 85 or 95, youch! :mrgreen: ). But if you combine the heat with other stressors, the same dose may fry it.

All these words to say I think you can find what you're looking for in terms of this factor mediates toward this course of action for this reason, just not all the info you want in one place. And such a resource would be tremendously popular. But . . . results may vary. :mrgreen:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

So I used this as my source http://www.smbsc.com/pdf/SprayAdjuvants.pdf
If this article is wrong, throw out what comes below. Also, the article doesn't indicate whether this is specifically for crop/ag versus turfgrass.

I also read this https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/cpr/weeds/effect-of-mso-and-ams-on-group-14-herbicides-05-26-16

I'm going to try to pull from that document so someone doesn't have to read the whole thing unless they really want to. Some of the stuff below will be direct quotes, so I don't want it to look like I wrote this.

"NDSU research has shown wide difference in adjuvant enhancement of herbicides. However, in many studies, no or small differences occur depending on environmental conditions at application, growing conditions of weeds, rate of herbicide used, and size of weeds. For example, under warm, humid conditions with actively growing weeds, NIS + nitrogen fertilizer may enhance weed control to the same level as oil adjuvants. The following are conditions where MSO type additives may give greater weed control than other adjuvant types:
1. Low humidity, hot weather, lack of rain, and drought-stressed weeds or weeds not actively growing due to some stress condition.
2. Weeds larger than recommended on the label.
3. Herbicides used at reduced rates.
4. Target weeds that are somewhat tolerant to the herbicide.
5. When university data supports crop safety and improved weed control.
Most herbicides, except glyphosate and Stinger, have greater activity when applied with MSO type adjuvants."

Glyphosate is enhanced by NIS and nitrogen fertilizer surfactants and doesn't play well with oil adjuvants. Post-ems mixed with glyphosate to promote weed control tend to require oil adjuvants for optimum results. Oil adjuvants such as COC and MSO don't always work well with glyphosate. "MSO based HSOC adjuvants (HSMOC) enhance both glyphosate and the lipophilic herbicide. MSO based HSOC adjuvants enhance lipophilic herbicides more than [COC] based HSOC, MSO and [COC] adjuvants."

"Minerals, clay, and organic matter in spray carrier water can reduce the effectiveness of herbicides."
"Hard water cations or micronutrients such calcium, magnesium, manganese, sodium, and iron reduce efficacy of all weak-acid herbicides"
"Antagonistic minerals can inactivate the activity of most POST herbicides, including glyphosate, growth regulators (not esters), ACCase inhibitors, ALS inhibitors, HPPD inhibitors, and Liberty."

The fun parts - "Ammonium nitrogen increases effectiveness of most weak-acid herbicides formulated as a salt. Fertilizers should always be used with herbicides unless prohibited by label. Ammonium ions greatly enhance herbicide absorption and phytotoxicity even in the absence of antagonistic salts in the spray carrier."

The article goes on to specifically suggest using AMS (a spray-able version so you don't end up with clogged nozzles) over UAN since the sulfate ion matters specifically for glyphosate. Almost every nitrogen source style surfactant includes AMS over UAN as the ingredient.

Here a list of many of the herbicides we use that fall into ACCase inhibiotrs, ALS inhibitors, and HPPD inhibitors categories.

Acetyl CoA Carboxylase (ACCase) enzyme (Lipid Biosynthesis) inhibition

Clethodim (Envoy)
Diclofop (Illoxan)
Fenoxaprop-ethyl (Acclaim Extra)
Fluazifop-P (Fusilade II)
Sethoxydim (Vantage)

Acetolactate synthase (ALS) [aka, acetohydroxyacid synthase (AHAS)] enzyme inhibition

Imidazolinones Imazamethabenz-methyl 
Imazamox (Raptor 1L)
Imazapic (Plateau 70DG)
Imazapyr (Arsenal 2S)
Imazaquin (Image)

Sulfonylureas 
Chlorsulfuron (Telar 75DG)
Foramsulfuron (Derigo 36.4WDG)
Halosulfuron-methyl (Sedgehammer)
Metsulfuron-methyl (Manor/MSM Turf)
Rimsulfuron (TranXit)
Sulfometuron-methyl (Oust)
Sulfosulfuron (Certanity)
Trifloxysulfuron-sodium (Monument)

Carotenoid biosynthesis (HPPD or 4-hydroxyphenyl-pyruvate dioxygenase)
Mesotrione (Tenacity)
Topramezone (Pylex)

Now into my opinion - 
The take away I got from all of that was to use sprayable AMS with almost everything, including PGR. Next it looks like glyphosate + anything else calls for HSMOC, rather than a MSO (which won't work well with the glyphosate) or a NIS which won't fully enable the other herbicides. For selective post-ems, it seems a HSMOC or NIS at both viable options; all depending on the temperature and label guidance. I see pros and cons of the organisilicone options. It looks like their low surface tension is a benefit by ensuring good droplet coverage however, it may also increase evaporation. Furthermore, the organisilicone surfactants tend to be pricey, and separately, may also help with rainfastness, so I'm not really sure where they fall on the pecking order/when to use them.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Now into my opinion -
> The take away I got from all of that was to use sprayable AMS with almost everything, including PGR. Next it looks like glyphosate + anything else calls for HSMOC, rather than a MSO (which won't work well with the glyphosate) or a NIS which won't fully enable the other herbicides. For selective post-ems, it seems a HSMOC or NIS at both viable options; . I see pros and cons of the organisilicone options. It looks like their low surface tension is a benefit by ensuring good droplet coverage however, it may also increase evaporation. Furthermore, the organisilicone surfactants tend to be pricey, and separately, may also help with rainfastness, so I'm not really sure where they fall on the pecking order/when to use them.


Using spray grade AMS for everything makes sense except for cases where the amonium ions increase desirable plant uptake to an extent that the desirable plant is injured to an unacceptable level by a particular herbicide. So the takeaway is use AMS but keep an eye out for injury and reduce rates if undesirable injury is noted. There are probably other caveats I'm not thinking of at the moment (there are always other caveats with this type of topic  ).

Using HSMOC with tank mixes that include gly but where other tank partners call for MSO or COC is a good option but an alternative that may be more cost effective is to use MSO and up the rate of gly (within allowable label rate) to overcome the antagonism of MSO to gly. Using HSMOC is a teriffic option if already at the max label rate of gly and the weeds really do need to be killed dead.

Using any adjuvant, whether AMS, NIS, COC, MSO, HSMOC or silicones, with selective herbicides is a good idea to try to increase effectiveness, exactly as you say, "all depending on the temperature and label guidance" (and a few other things including the list provided in the article you quoted).

Full herbicide rates on small, healthy, actively growing weeds in warm, humid conditions need less care in adjuvant selection for an effective kill, thus AMS with NIS would work about as well as anything else and they couldn't find a difference using (more expensive) MSO. Hard to argue with that proposition. On the other hand, given the volumes of adjuvants used in landscaping vs ag, using MSO when it's called for isn't any economic hardship and would eliminate all the variables they cited as ideal conditions to get an effective kill with just AMS and NIS.

I've never used the silicones so I have no idea what they do. I think one of the guys, can't remember who at the moment, uses one of them for just about everything. My understanding is that they are nonionic and do not antagonize gly or similar "fussy" herbicides but have similar performance to the oils.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Anyone ever used the Hot MES surfactant?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

For anyone else who wants to nerd out on surfactants,

https://www.ag.ndsu.edu/weeds/weed-control-guides/nd-weed-control-guide-1/wcg-files/a5-adjuvants

Key points
NIS helps water droplet retention

Silicone surfactants promote stomatal flooding, but doesn't necessarily translate into improved weed control

Oil concentrates include petroleum (PO) or vegetable oils/seed oil (MSO) + an emulsifier. The emulsifier, the oil class, and the specific type all impact effectiveness. Oil surfactants enhance post-em effectiveness more than NIS. Oil surfactants specifically antagonize glyphosate.

MSO enhances post-em effectiveness more than NIS or PO. MSO can cause damage due to increased plant uptake, therefore consider using less AI.

High-Surfactant Oil Concentrates (HSOC) [such as the hot-mes product I asked about above] are PO or MSO plus surfactant. These are designed to work with glyphosate. The MSO versions enhance glyphosate and lipophilic herbicides more than PO based HSOC, MSO, and PO surfactants.  Example of lipophilic herbicides http://passel.unl.edu/pages/informationmodule.php?idinformationmodule=1056648673&topicorder=2&maxto=5

Apply HSOC on based on area rather than water volume.

With that all being said, the driving issue for me was spraying a mixture including ammonium sulfate, tenacity, fluazifop, triclopyr, and glyphosate. I was unsure whether to use NIS which works with everything, or to use a MSO, since the fluazifop prefers MSO but doesn't work with glyphosate. As a result, I purchased a bottle of Hot-Mes HSOC to use, hoping it will maximize the kill off all the aforementioned tank mixture.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Sam23 said:


> I use FarmWorks Surfactant purchased from The Tractor Supply.


I just picked up the exact same thing.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

To provide some more info on adjuvant selection,
https://www.agronomy.org/files/membership/branches/northcentral/presentations/07-adjuvant-puzzle-barnnhart.ppt

This presentation includes a chart for one particular chemical, where there is a break down of product absorbed depending on adjuvant.

No additive - Approx 5% absorbed
Fertilizer adjuvant - 43% absorbed
Non-ionic surfactant - 45% absorbed
Crop oil concentrate - 50% absorbed
Non-ionic surfactant + fertilizer - 82% absorbed
Crop oil concentrate + fertilizer - 82% absorbed

Key take away to me, Ammonium Sulfate and Urea are cheap and it seems prudent to include them in your post-em mixtures.

For all you guys spraying monument on poa, which runs $50 for a 5 gram packet and is applied at a rate of 10-15 grams per acre, you would need about $3 worth of AMS (7lbs), and arguably, a lot better plant uptake.

I include AMS, the post em(s), and then either 80/20 NIS, or HOTMES, which is a high surfactant methylated weed oil.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

A taste test is the only true deciding factor.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

SCGrassMan said:


> A taste test is the only true deciding factor.


Smart mouthed kids everywhere down vote dawn soap.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> > A taste test is the only true deciding factor.
> ...


True story - I had my mouth rinsed out with Palmolive as a kid at daycare once. To this day I cannot stand the smell of Palmolive.


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## ram82 (Dec 19, 2018)

so how much ams are you all using in your herbicide mixes?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

ram82 said:


> so how much ams are you all using in your herbicide mixes?


I'm including 1.7lb per 10 gallons.

I've seen numbers saying as low at 0.5% through 2% by volume.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I tend to put about an ounce per 2-4 gallons


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

2 oz (by weight) per gal.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> 2 oz (by weight) per gal.


Just curious how you arrived at that figure - that seems like a lot


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

SCGrassMan said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > 2 oz (by weight) per gal.
> ...


Agreed. 1% by volume is 1.28 oz, and most call for .5 oz by volume.

Clarification -- I was mistakenly thinking about NIS usage based on the thread title. Use of AMS is a different story.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I use 2.5oz dry AMS per gal. With common recommendations up to 17lbs/100gal, that's 2.72oz/1gal. The sulfate in the AMS binds with cationic minerals in the spray water and the ammonium can bind with the herbicides (weak-acid herbicides). Some plants contain Ca on their leaf surfaces which can bind with herbicides, thus needing more AMS to aid in overcoming that as well. I don't know the mineral content in my water so why not use more AMS to be sure. With the cost of AMS and how little I spray herbicides, using less AMS isn't worth it to me. I like that 2.5oz of AMS drops the PH from 7 to under 6 with my tap water. This means, if I want it even lower, I can use less citric acid as that costs more than AMS. I buy 50lb bags of spray grade AMS for $12. It is a fine grind and dissolves quickly in cold water. If you have a farm and are spraying acres, then AMS becomes a cost concern and a minimum should be calculated or at the very least, trial and error to determine the minimum amount of optimal AMS to be used. Of course, on the flip side, you could just use more herbicide to negate the need for AMS...


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Suburban Jungle Life+1. I am of the mindset that AMS is cheap. I want max uptake of herbicide AI. I don't want to have to spray again, and I don't want to wound the plant; I want it dead.

I don't know of any particular application where adding nitrogen hurts uptake. However, pH can have an impact when using sulfonylurea herbicides.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > 2 oz (by weight) per gal.
> ...


Works out to about 5 and a half pounds AMS per acre. That's not a lot. Just a tiny pinch of AMS really 

Why does that seem to be a lot?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I use 2.5oz dry AMS per gal. With common recommendations up to 17lbs/100gal, that's 2.72oz/1gal. The sulfate in the AMS binds with cationic minerals in the spray water and the ammonium can bind with the herbicides (weak-acid herbicides). Some plants contain Ca on their leaf surfaces which can bind with herbicides, thus needing more AMS to aid in overcoming that as well. I don't know the mineral content in my water so why not use more AMS to be sure. With the cost of AMS and how little I spray herbicides, using less AMS isn't worth it to me. I like that 2.5oz of AMS drops the PH from 7 to under 6 with my tap water. This means, if I want it even lower, I can use less citric acid as that costs more than AMS. I buy 50lb bags of spray grade AMS for $12. It is a fine grind and dissolves quickly in cold water. If you have a farm and are spraying acres, then AMS becomes a cost concern and a minimum should be calculated or at the very least, trial and error to determine the minimum amount of optimal AMS to be used. Of course, on the flip side, you could just use more herbicide to negate the need for AMS...


^ this. Well said sir. :thumbup:


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Suburban Jungle Life+1. I am of the mindset that AMS is cheap. I want max uptake of herbicide AI. I don't want to have to spray again, and I don't want to wound the plant; I want it dead.
> 
> I don't know of any particular application where adding nitrogen hurts uptake. However, pH can have an impact when using sulfonylurea herbicides.


Have you ever had an issue with a "hot" selective injuring desirable plants? I've been reluctant to add AMS to some of the hotter selectives (like anything with sulfentrazone for example).


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I was thinking of liquid spreader sticker. I'm not familiar with AMS.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

SCGrassMan said:


> I was thinking of liquid spreader sticker. I'm not familiar with AMS.


Ammonium sulfate


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Oh got it


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith I'm a homeowner vs pro applicator so my experience is based only what I've applied to my own yard.

I haven't used dismiss so no personal experience with that one. With that said, I am okay to risk damage on my own yard, knowing that the Bermuda will likely grow out just fine.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> . . . knowing that the Bermuda will likely grow out just fine.


True that. :nod: :lol:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Sulfentrazone is not affected by addition of AMS. However, it is affected especially by oil based Surfactants like MSO. MSO + Sulfentrazone is my tank mix in the cooler months. Not used in warm weather.
Neutral non ionic surfactants have not caused any applications to be more or less damaging.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

For those wondering, this chart at the bottom may help plan your sprays.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> For those wondering, this chart at the bottom may help plan your sprays.


Solid chart.

I think using AMS in the mix does double duty. Helps with uptake in the plant and eliminates water hardness issues.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> For those wondering, this chart at the bottom may help plan your sprays.


Honestly that chart is helpful just cross referencing brands with AIs!


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Sulfentrazone is not affected by addition of AMS. However, it is affected especially by oil based Surfactants like MSO. MSO + Sulfentrazone is my tank mix in the cooler months. Not used in warm weather.
> Neutral non ionic surfactants have not caused any applications to be more or less damaging.


Would you consider spraying MSO + Sulfentrazone if high is < 80F or is that still too high and I should probably just use NIS. Trying to see what "cooler months" is defined for you. Sulfentrazone scares me but I want to kill this Kyllinga. Have applied once at 0.18 oz/K with no surfactant and the kyllinga got dinged up but came back.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Hit it again. If you are below 85, that is cool enough to apply Sulfentrazone+surfactants.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

It straight up smoked green kyllinga in my bermuda at just .125 fl oz/1000sf without any surfactant. I sprayed it last Friday and two days later it was toast. Highs were in the mid 70s.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Greendoc @Redtwin I'll give it another go with a blanket app on my SA @ 0.1375oz/K + NIS and then ill follow up in 35 days with the same rate. Really want to put out this Pennant Magnum soon even thought it looks like it wont touch kyllinga. Have some yellow sedge too.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

I've been curious about this for a while. I hardly ever use MSO since that one time I spray hot when mixed with dismiss. I try to read the label and I'm usually spraying a NIS with AMS.

Question for everyone when your spraying fungicide what do you use nis or mso??


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

CenlaLowell said:


> I hardly ever use MSO since that one time I spray hot when mixed with dismiss.


Are you saying it was too hot when you sprayed Dismiss + MSO and you torched your grass? What was the temp.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

mjh648 said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > I hardly ever use MSO since that one time I spray hot when mixed with dismiss.
> ...


Yes that's exactly what happened. I don't spray anything at temps over 85 degrees so it was less than that.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I acquired quite a taste for Irish Springs when I was a kid. ☘


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Redtwin said:


> I acquired quite a taste for Irish Springs when I was a kid. ☘


Strict mom and did you have a bad mouth? :lol: I still remember that scene from the movie starring Peter Billingsly, Melinda Dillon, and Darren McGavin.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> I've been curious about this for a while. I hardly ever use MSO since that one time I spray hot when mixed with dismiss. I try to read the label and I'm usually spraying a NIS with AMS.
> 
> Question for everyone when your spraying fungicide what do you use nis or mso??


I use a combination NIS and acidifying agent known as LI700. Another brand available in the south and midwest is PS804. I stick to neutral NIS if I am applying Fosetyl-Al(Signature, Aliette).


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Redtwin said:
> 
> 
> > I acquired quite a taste for Irish Springs when I was a kid. ☘
> ...


A Christmas Story?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Yes, a Christmas Story.


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## Adrian82 (Jun 5, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Hit it again. If you are below 85, that is cool enough to apply Sulfentrazone+surfactants.


@Greendoc 
Currently, some POA is running rampant in certain parts of my yard. I can live with the POA because yellow nutsedge is my archnemesis. Should I put Sufentrazone down this week and a second app 35 days later or wait for the nutsedge to appear.


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