# Hydretain Granular Vs Liquid



## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

I am curious which one you would apply? I dont really have a preference ...

I am trying to fix my backyard where like half of it is basically hard pan and just crap grows on it. Wanting to get the soil softer for sure and was thinking this product would do it.

Thoughts?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Hydretain is not a wetting agent, it doesn't move water. Not sure this is the right product for hard pan.

As for granular vs liquid hydretain I think the only difference is price and application technique.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I would go with the liquid as it's more cost effective but you can go to your local Site One and pick up Lesco Moisture Manager which is the exact same thing for probably much cheaper or see if they have any actual wetting agents their to purchase. Shipping that stuff isn't cheap so the cost is factored into it. You are better off to source heavy things like that locally as you will save more and then you can buy more or use the money you save to buy better equipment.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

ionicatoms said:


> Hydretain is not a wetting agent, it doesn't move water. Not sure this is the right product for hard pan.
> 
> As for granular vs liquid hydretain I think the only difference is price and application technique.


OK, thanks for that ... what do you think might be the right product for this to soften the soil up and let the roots take?


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

Mightyquinn said:


> I would go with the liquid as it's more cost effective but you can go to your local Site One and pick up Lesco Moisture Manager which is the exact same thing for probably much cheaper or see if they have any actual wetting agents their to purchase. Shipping that stuff isn't cheap so the cost is factored into it. You are better off to source heavy things like that locally as you will save more and then you can buy more or use the money you save to buy better equipment.


oooo, great idea ... I actually have a site one a few miles away! :thumbup:


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

picked up a bag of granular moisture control this morning ... will throw in on the yard after my mow tomorrow and water it in

Thanks for the help!


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Bushwacked, please let us know how it works. I have heavy clay/ hardpan also.... and our Texas heat is coming up and was thinking of trying the same thing to make my new / thin Bermuda lawn more water retentive. I have been searching this site and reading all about wetting agents.

@Mightyquinn I would love to hear your thoughts on your TR and how you think that might help our situations with clay/ hardpan.

Thinking about trying the LESCO HUME 100% Active Wetting Agent Tablets + Humic Acid 6 from Site One with the Pellet Pro Applicator. V/r Al


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I apply TR monthly to help with uniform wetting of the soil but if I get a hot spot I will use the Pellet Pro with TR pellets to soak down the area and have noticed that it recovers much faster than water alone. It's one of those things I think you have to keep doing it or you will lose any benefit from it. I would experiment with a small area first and TR isn't the only game in town, something cheaper may work just as well.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

bushwacked said:


> picked up a bag of granular moisture control this morning ... will throw in on the yard after my mow tomorrow and water it in
> 
> Thanks for the help!


Bushwacked,
I just read the label for the Hydretrain grannular and even though I think the initial costs are a bit higher the method of application is much easier and the product last much longer. (Compared to other spray on wetting agents).



Mightyquinn said:


> I apply TR monthly to help with uniform wetting of the soil but if I get a hot spot I will use the Pellet Pro with TR pellets to soak down the area and have noticed that it recovers much faster than water alone. It's one of those things I think you have to keep doing it or you will lose any benefit from it. I would experiment with a small area first and TR isn't the only game in town, something cheaper may work just as well.


Mightyquinn, thanks for the advice. I think I might just try this Hydretrain. Applying this to 1.5 acres with my towable broadcast spreader, seems more realistic than breaking out hoses and spraying it in.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

You can technically take the pellets and melt them down in water and spray them through a sprayer. One TR tablet will cover 16K.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@bushwacked, @al0629 would you mind following up on your results after a month or so? I'm curious to hear about hydretain on hardpan. While looking for the video where the President of the company talks about the difference between Hydretain and wetting agents (which was the basis of my first remark, didn't find the video), I came across another marketing video which sort of blurs the line.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Mightyquinn said:


> You can technically take the pellets and melt them down in water and spray them through a sprayer. One TR tablet will cover 16K.


The thought of dragging hoses around my property seems like a lot of work compared to pulling my broadcast spreader with my riding mower and then watering it in with my irrigation system. The hydetain claims to work on hydrophonic soil as well as last up to 3 months.

A definite pro of the pellets for me is that I do have a spiket in my back yard that comes directly off my 1" irrigation system piping. Probably puts out 25 gpm @ 65 psi. Would work great in the application of the pellets and watering it in at the same time ensuring no grass browning and ensuring the product gets worked into the soil. Just the thought of handling all the hoses.

Hydretain label reads 120 pounds per acre. For my 1.5 acres= 5x 40 pound bags = $500 ( three months of coverage)
Pellet gun plus 3 cases of Lesco Hume wetting agent: $420, (same three month coverage). I would also have one tablet from each case left over as it would likely only take 5 of the 6 to do my property.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I was saying, you don't need the pellet gun. You melt the pellet down in water and spray it through your tow behind sprayer. I don't think the Hydratain will last 3 months and is mostly marketing under ideal conditions.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Mightyquinn said:


> I was saying, you don't need the pellet gun. You melt the pellet down in water and spray it through your tow behind sprayer.


Okay. Thanks for that clarification in melting the tablets in water. :beer: Any tips on how to performing melting tablets in the water. I don't want to throw away money. :thumbup: My sprayer is the Northstar 31 gallon.

With that being said I think I'm going to start small and just buy a case of the LESCO HUME 100% Active Wetting Agent Tablets + Humic Acid 6 from my local Site One. ($110). We have about a 40% chance of some rain Friday night / Saturday morning. I will get the lawn cut and put the product down as the sun is going down on Friday. Then start watering it in. And if it rains even better. Thanks again.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I know some people put them in the hot sun for a few hours to melt and then they will slide out of the jar. They have a fair low melting point. If you don't care about saving the jar, you could cut it with a razor and just crack it open.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Mightyquinn said:


> I know some people put them in the hot sun for a few hours to melt and then they will slide out of the jar. They have a fair low melting point. If you don't care about saving the jar, you could cut it with a razor and just crack it open.


Mightyquinn, okay so once I get it out of its plastic jar, I can just toss the pellet into water and it will dissolve in the water?

Thank you again for your knowledge and patience!!

V/r Al


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Yes, but it may take some agitation/warm water or letting it soak to dissolve completely. You will have to play around with it and see what works best with what you have.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Mightyquinn said:


> Yes, but it may take some agitation/warm water or letting it soak to dissolve completely. You will have to play around with it and see what works best with what you have.


Hmmmm, trying to figure out the best way to do this... I might as well use all 6 tablets.... Put two tablets each into their own 5 gallon bucket of warm water. (3 buckets) Then once dissolved, put the contents of the bucket into sprayer to mix with more water. Likely, 10 gallons, then top it off at 31 gallons. Then use each bucket to do 33.3% of my yard.

I'll let you know how that goes. Thanks again.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

As long as each tablet is covering 16K you should be good.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

first a multi quote system would be great here haha ... am I missing it? Had to quote then copy and then go to next one and paste and then copy etc etc to get all these ...



al0629 said:


> Bushwacked, please let us know how it works. I have heavy clay/ hardpan also.... and our Texas heat is coming up and was thinking of trying the same thing to make my new / thin Bermuda lawn more water retentive. I have been searching this site and reading all about wetting agents.


Sure, I can follow up on this in about a month from now and let you know what I see ... I also put this on my zoysia in front which is going strong, I am curious on the results of it there too with water times and how much I can cut back before I see stress.



Mightyquinn said:


> I apply TR monthly to help with uniform wetting of the soil but if I get a hot spot I will use the Pellet Pro with TR pellets to soak down the area and have noticed that it recovers much faster than water alone. It's one of those things I think you have to keep doing it or you will lose any benefit from it. I would experiment with a small area first and TR isn't the only game in town, something cheaper may work just as well.


what is TR?



al0629 said:


> bushwacked said:
> 
> 
> > picked up a bag of granular moisture control this morning ... will throw in on the yard after my mow tomorrow and water it in
> ...


Ya that is why I was willing to start with the MM granular first. I figure even if I get 2+ months it will be worth it. My yard is about 4k sq ft and the bag says follow up treatments use 1/3 original rate .. if I read that correctly ... so 1 bag should last me 2 seasons.

my math: 40lb bag 
2.7lb per 1k standard app
first app - 4k yard - 10.8lbs
3 month app - .9lb per 1k (3.6 total)
3 month app - .9lb per 1k (3.6 total)

So for 1 season I would use roughly 18lbs of the 40lb bag. Not sure if this needs to be an every 3 month thing even in winter though ... still need to see if I can find some research on that or if someone already knows? Either way, my main worry is getting through the texas summers which, for now, should almost yield 2 seasons.



Mightyquinn said:


> I don't think the Hydratain will last 3 months and is mostly marketing under ideal conditions.


I am curious ... do you mean the hydratain from lawn nut or all moisture managers like lesco as well? Have you used the Lesco moisture manager and if so I am curious what you saw from it?


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

> Ya that is why I was willing to start with the MM granular first. I figure even if I get 2+ months it will be worth it. My yard is about 4k sq ft and the bag says follow up treatments use 1/3 original rate .. if I read that correctly ... so 1 bag should last me 2 seasons.
> my math: 40lb bag
> 2.7lb per 1k standard app
> first app - 4k yard - 10.8lbs
> ...


I agree with your math for application. You will use just under half the bag in one season per your plan. I am going to start a little slower, economically speaking. I have 1.5 acres so I would need 5 bags for my first application and then about 1.65 bags monthly thereafter. That's pretty spendy. I can get 1.5 acres done with a little over 4 of the 6 pellets that come in a case of the Lesco Hume. Hell, I'll probably put down all 6. And that is only $110. I'm still interested in how the MM works out. :thumbup:


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@bushwacked TR is Tournament Ready. Hydretrain and Lesco Moisture Management are the same thing. Tournament Ready is a nonionic soil surfactant. Hydretrain and Moisture Managment are hydroscopic humectants.

For someone with hard packed soil, I would think a product that promotes water penetrating into the soil would be more useful than one that just holds onto water.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

TR=Tournament Ready

Hydratain & Lesco Moisture Manager are the same thing

I have used the LMM before and I was not that impressed with it. I used the liquid version and it just seemed like a watered down soap with some kind of humic thrown in there. Now the Tournament Ready liquid that I have used is a super thick viscous liquid that creates a film that's hard to remove on everything it touches and I have seen direct effects of it from spraying it on hot spots in the lawn as opposed to using just straight water. Any wetting agent isn't going to last more than 30 days in the soil since it's always exposed to irrigation and rain events. Don't expect miracles as it's just another tool in the tool box and a bit of insurance it the best way to look at it.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Mightyquinn said:


> I have used the LMM before and I was not that impressed with it. I used the liquid version and it just seemed like a watered down soap with some kind of humic thrown in there.


To my knowledge, there's no humic in the normal retail Hydretain. They do have a professional variant (ES Plus II) with humates in it, but the regular version is comprised of humectants which include: sugar alcohols, polysaccharides and neutral salts of alpha-hydroxypropionic acid.

I wish I had the link to the video, because the President of the company was very clear that Hydretain is fundamentally different from a standard wetting agent, which is probably confusing because one part of Hydretain is a NIS, which according to the patent is designed to facilitate distribution of the humectant.

I don't see these products as competitors. They seem to be designed to address different issues.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > I have used the LMM before and I was not that impressed with it. I used the liquid version and it just seemed like a watered down soap with some kind of humic thrown in there.
> ...


You are probably right on the Humic thing and I got it confused with Humectants but it is a thin brown soapy liquid but from what I know about it is that its an "old" chemistry and has been around forever. I think they are similar but different as they are both suppose to keep your soil wetter longer theoretically.

I learned a lot from the USGA article Understanding Wetting Agents


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> @bushwacked TR is Tournament Ready. Hydretrain and Lesco Moisture Management are the same thing. Tournament Ready is a nonionic soil surfactant. Hydretrain and Moisture Managment are hydroscopic humectants.
> 
> For someone with hard packed soil, I would think a product that promotes water penetrating into the soil would be more useful than one that just holds onto water.


Thanks for the info! I will need to research more on those difference 

However, maybe I am missing something, I thought this does promote (maintain) water in the soil? Or are you saying, water cant penetrate the top layer so this MM stuff is almost useless until I get the top layer corrected? IF so, what would you recommend for something for penetrating the soil?



Mightyquinn said:


> TR=Tournament Ready
> 
> Hydratain & Lesco Moisture Manager are the same thing
> 
> I have used the LMM before and I was not that impressed with it. I used the liquid version and it just seemed like a watered down soap with some kind of humic thrown in there. Now the Tournament Ready liquid that I have used is a super thick viscous liquid that creates a film that's hard to remove on everything it touches and I have seen direct effects of it from spraying it on hot spots in the lawn as opposed to using just straight water. Any wetting agent isn't going to last more than 30 days in the soil since it's always exposed to irrigation and rain events. Don't expect miracles as it's just another tool in the tool box and a bit of insurance it the best way to look at it.


Do you have a specific wetting agent you like to use? Did I miss that in here?


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

Mightyquinn said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > Mightyquinn said:
> ...


ah, thanks for this link ... will read up on it


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I have been using Tournament Ready for the last couple of years and I am pretty happy with it. I have used the liquid and the pellets. There are many out there that you can use, what works for me may not work for you so just know that going into the whole thing. I don't look at them as a miracle product but more of an insurance policy for your lawn and also a way to get even distribution of water through the soil profile.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

Mightyquinn said:


> I have been using Tournament Ready for the last couple of years and I am pretty happy with it. I have used the liquid and the pellets. There are many out there that you can use, what works for me may not work for you so just know that going into the whole thing. I don't look at them as a miracle product but more of an insurance policy for your lawn and also a way to get even distribution of water through the soil profile.


ah gotcha ... ya I am not expecting miracles, just trying to get the soil soft enough to let grass attempt to be lush again.

Curious on the moisture management and your TR ... have you noticed you have been able to reduce watering? By how much compared to without it?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

My understanding of Hydretain is that is reduces evaporation from the soil, changing soil water vapor to liquid. That's nice. But most loss of water is through the stomates in the leaves, which this would not help with. If I had soil where water just ran off instead of soaking in, I'd be more interested in a product that was supposed to work by penetrating into the soil and getting water to the root zone. I haven't used any commercial wetting agents. I have sprayed shampoo and watered it in and that helped with a particular hard spot.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

would aeration also be just as good as some penetration type product? Then, the moisture manager could get into those holes and work its magic??


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Aeration is good for compacted soils. Adding compost is good for compacted soils. Adding water a little at a time is good for compacted soils. Staying off the ground, especially with heavy equipment, is good for compacted soils. The products that are surfactants reduce the surface tension of water, making it wetter, and that is good for compacted soils. Hydretain is supposed to let you hold onto what water you have in the soil at least somewhat better. I don't think any of the products have magic. The real magic is what's in the soil that you don't see: the fungi, the earthworms, all the other soil life.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't know if aeration would be a substitute for something like TR. The cores/slits usually aren't very deep and true hardpan is difficult to punch through anyway.

The moisture manager has a surfactant built in to it, so I do expect it will distribute itself throughout the top layer of soil which is wettable. After watering-in MM, you could try to take a core sample or maybe dig out a wedge to determine how deep the water has penetrated into the root zone. I haven't tried to diagnose/ correct a hardpan scenario in real life, so I'm just guessing at this point.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@bushwacked Have you done a soil test? @al0629 had one done (was it Midwest labs?) and his sodium was a bit high and he's adding gypsum as recommended by the lab. Hopefully that will help his soil displace excess sodium and leach it away and improve the soil structure. If you're in an area where it's possible that salts and/or sodium could be an issue, it's worth checking on.

Another thing that could help is leaving clippings on the lawn. Not only do they provide nutrients, they help mulch the soil.


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> @bushwacked Have you done a soil test? @al0629 had one done (was it Midwest labs?) and his sodium was a bit high and he's adding gypsum as recommended by the lab. Hopefully that will help his soil displace excess sodium and leach it away and improve the soil structure. If you're in an area where it's possible that salts and/or sodium could be an issue, it's worth checking on.


Virginiagal, it was MidWest labs. I did notice that Bushwacked lives around DFW. I am in Benbrook. Southwest Ft Worth. But I'd bet our soils are similar. Heavy clay. I think alot of my problem is my grass is thin and doesn't block out a lot of the sun. And so it hardens quicker then if I had a thick layer of grass. The areas of my lawn that were sodded look great. The other 80% is still thin and weak. I want to get that area treated with the wetting agents, along with the gypsum, Mg and heavy fertilizer plan I created. Hopefully, the wetting agent will help the gypsum be more effective, especially IRT flushing the soil of excess salts etc..
V/r Al


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

@al0629 For leaching purposes, I would think Penterra is a better product. After the leaching is done, then perhaps use Moisture Manager as a way to retain more water. For leaching, you want the water to move on through below the root zone as quickly as possible and take the sodium along with it,


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> @al0629 For leaching purposes, I would think Penterra is a better product. After the leaching is done, then perhaps use Moisture Manager as a way to retain more water. For leaching, you want the water to move on through below the root zone as quickly as possible and take the sodium along with it,


@Virginiagal I spent one morning reading the 19 page thread on this forum about wetting agents. I actually found that thread by searching for Penterra. I think you're right about Penterra to move the water thru the root zone but currently I'm just looking to get maintain some porosity to be able to get water to the roots. With the Texas heat coming, my thin grass and no shade trees.... Last year my lawn barely made it thru the summer. Not sure what type of shade or condition of @bushwacked lawn is but he mentioned hard pan so I bet similar....My neighbor had sod put in his entire lawn and it looks great. My entire sodded area looks great. I'm sure it has to do with the thicker grass blocking out the heat of the sun, allowing it to not to cook like a clay pot in a kiln.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

al0629 said:


> I'm sure it has to do with the thicker grass blocking out the heat of the sun, allowing it to not to cook like a clay pot in a kiln.


100% agree. In the thinner areas, you could spread almost any kind of organic mulch to cover exposed soil. Coconut coir pith fiber, straw, peat, or even grass clippings from the sodded areas! Pretty much any organic mulch that will cover visible soil and hold moisture will provide a net benefit in thin areas. Exposed soil should be avoided as much as possible.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

Virginiagal said:


> @bushwacked Have you done a soil test? @al0629 had one done (was it Midwest labs?) and his sodium was a bit high and he's adding gypsum as recommended by the lab. Hopefully that will help his soil displace excess sodium and leach it away and improve the soil structure. If you're in an area where it's possible that salts and/or sodium could be an issue, it's worth checking on.
> 
> Another thing that could help is leaving clippings on the lawn. Not only do they provide nutrients, they help mulch the soil.


I have not got a sample in like a year and half or so ... I guess its time to run another sample through the labs. I did Texas A&M last night and the lawn nut or whatever tests just to see if there was any differences ... didnt notice anything.



ionicatoms said:


> I don't know if aeration would be a substitute for something like TR. The cores/slits usually aren't very deep and true hardpan is difficult to punch through anyway.
> 
> The moisture manager has a surfactant built in to it, so I do expect it will distribute itself throughout the top layer of soil which is wettable. After watering-in MM, you could try to take a core sample or maybe dig out a wedge to determine how deep the water has penetrated into the root zone. I haven't tried to diagnose/ correct a hardpan scenario in real life, so I'm just guessing at this point.


gotcha .. I will try and see what I can and get a look at the soil deeper down



Virginiagal said:


> Aeration is good for compacted soils. Adding compost is good for compacted soils. Adding water a little at a time is good for compacted soils. Staying off the ground, especially with heavy equipment, is good for compacted soils. The products that are surfactants reduce the surface tension of water, making it wetter, and that is good for compacted soils. Hydretain is supposed to let you hold onto what water you have in the soil at least somewhat better. I don't think any of the products have magic. The real magic is what's in the soil that you don't see: the fungi, the earthworms, all the other soil life.


good info here! I guess it doesnt help that there were some heavy machines in the back rolling around on plywood for several days and just so happened to be over the bad spots.



al0629 said:


> Virginiagal, it was MidWest labs. I did notice that Bushwacked lives around DFW. I am in Benbrook. Southwest Ft Worth. But I'd bet our soils are similar. Heavy clay. I think alot of my problem is my grass is thin and doesn't block out a lot of the sun. And so it hardens quicker then if I had a thick layer of grass. The areas of my lawn that were sodded look great. The other 80% is still thin and weak. I want to get that area treated with the wetting agents, along with the gypsum, Mg and heavy fertilizer plan I created. Hopefully, the wetting agent will help the gypsum be more effective, especially IRT flushing the soil of excess salts etc..
> V/r Al


Ya I am up in the Grapevine area ... sounds like we have similar issues haha. Thin and weak is a good description for sure ..


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> You can technically take the pellets and melt them down in water and spray them through a sprayer. One TR tablet will cover 16K.


Have you tried this? You got me curious. Did you run into any clogging issues?


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > You can technically take the pellets and melt them down in water and spray them through a sprayer. One TR tablet will cover 16K.
> ...


I have, to a certain extent. I have melted one tablet down in 1 gallon of water and poured it into my EZ-FLO in the past. 1 tablet seems to melt down just fine in 1 gallon so mixing in more water you shouldn't have any issues.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Mightyquinn said:
> ...


Cool stuff. I have a spreadermate and I typically spray 8 gallons at a time. If a tablet covers around 16k as ft, I can spray my whole front lawn with one tablet


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> al0629 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm sure it has to do with the thicker grass blocking out the heat of the sun, allowing it to not to cook like a clay pot in a kiln.
> ...


That seems like a great idea. I'm going to start bagging my clippings from the sodded areas and spread it on the thinner areas. Thank you for that input. And the extra workload. :lol: I checked out your lawn journal and your St Augustine and your lawn design overall is beautiful. :thumbup: Here are some pics of the worst of what I'm dealing with. All the dead stuff is from me spraying MSMA to kill the Dallisgrass.


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## bushwacked (May 21, 2020)

al0629 said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > al0629 said:
> ...


dang that's a big yard! Going to look awesome once you get it all worked out!


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## al0629 (Mar 28, 2021)

bushwacked said:


> al0629 said:
> 
> 
> > ionicatoms said:
> ...


Thank you. :thumbup:


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