# The Anti-Lawn movement



## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

First of all, please, no politics. It's going to be tough, but let's try to keep it on track so we can discuss this important topic. I am hoping our passion for lawn care unites us, even across the political divide.

Here is an opinion piece published by the NYT today:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/15/...l?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

The language is quite potent. Poison, cancer, death, laying waste, apocalypse. Opinions such as these have been expressed for a long time, but I think we're at a place where we will soon see real push back against our hobby. And if the circumstances are right, it could be at a federal level.

I started this thread because I think it is important that we start preparing for the battle that will inevitably come. This is a great community and together we can make a stand, and a difference. TLF can and must be more that lawn care advice. We have to figure out how to work together and make our voice heard, and make a difference in the process.


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## testwerke (Apr 4, 2019)

I've been seeing "no lawn" posts pop up on reddit as well. Most cite water use and lack of biological diversity as it relates to pollinators.

I remember my college botany professor saying it takes a lot of work and resources to get a single species to grow and that grass does not give much back to the soil; that we're simply stopping nature from "uh, finding a way." Recalling all of that makes me question my motives and efforts to rehab my own lawn if all it provides is aesthetics.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

I kind of got a laugh as right in the middle of this article popped up an advertisement for Do My Own and their post emergent herbicide sale.


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## capples3 (Sep 17, 2018)

I live not too far from Toronto, we have had super restrictions on what we can use and can't use. We have lived it up here for a number of years. I've been making out ok, I don't have the perfect lawn by any means, but I've gotten by with Fert and water and the odd weed application only since I started the hobby. I can't live without Milo though, I'll drive 2 hours to the border for that.


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## wafflesngravy (Apr 8, 2019)

Well I live in Farm country and the farmers waste more water than we do. They don't even turn the sprinklers off during rain. This is America, we pride ourselves on excess! Besides you can't waste water. The water we drink is the same water the dinosaurs drank. We just need better methods to gather it. Theres plenty for everybody.


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## ErosionWizard (Apr 7, 2019)

Here in Cali the battle over water gets crazy. Some people want to tell all others how to use or how much to use. The big fight become over who should or should not get the water. Our city told us when we could water our lawn and wash our cars. It was a huge deal. I believe at some point they even told you how big a lawn you could have. I was worried but went big anyways. The farmers get lots of water and that is another part of the water wars. The big question is could we do without all the food that is grown with that water. I'm not ready to give up my lawn, and I diffently do not want to give up my Food either.


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## wafflesngravy (Apr 8, 2019)

ErosionWizard said:


> Here in Cali the battle over water gets crazy. Some people want to tell all others how to use or how much to use. The big fight become over who should or should not get the water. Our city told us when we could water our lawn and wash our cars. It was a huge deal. I believe at some point they even told you how big a lawn you could have. I was worried but went big anyways. The farmers get lots of water and that is another part of the water wars. The big question is could we do without all the food that is grown with that water. I'm not ready to give up my lawn, and I diffently do not want to give up my good either.


I'm from Sacramento originally, I heard thru relatives that a couple years ago when the drought was really bad they were using helicopters to look for green lawns to fine people. Crazy. I love my california roots, but its nice to be somewhere now that doesn't even care how much water I use. The ironic part is I'm in a desert now and they don't seem worried what so ever. I have 18 zones on my system and it takes all night to get through it all. Nobody cares and I love it!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm not sure how powerful the argument is, but one thing to consider is that a well-manicured lawn may increase the value of the house. I'm not in real estate, so I don't really know, but that is my assumption.
It kind of goes without saying on a lawn forum: but the house with the eye-sore lawn is less appealing than a house with a striped up fescue lawn :nod:


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

Luckily I live in a rainforest. We never run out of water and do not pay for usage. But we still have restrictions on water usage in the summertime. I'll give up my lawn only if they start closing golf courses first.


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## zinger565 (Nov 28, 2017)

For reference I work at a grain processing facility in Iowa. We use more water in a single day than my household would use in 10 years. We're considered small by industry standards as well.

The chemical comments I can understand to a point. There are plenty of people (myself included) who's first thought is that if some is good, more must be better. However, I do get some heartache when people vilify "chemicals" without understanding what they're actually talking about. Especially when they use the "organic alternative" that's the same active ingredient that just hasn't been processed.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@TN Hawkeye I had a nice ad for Pylex 4oz right in the middle of the article.

So, every time I go out to mow or spray anything in my lawn I take note of the empty lot next to me that is at this moment over a foot tall and 95% weeds. The ground is very mushy over there, there are ivy vines and Virginia creeper running across the ground floor and Polk weed about 3-4' tall in other areas. I've seen all kinds of wildlife including snakes in the quarter acre field that I want no part of being near my house and lawn. It's been for sale for 20+ years from what I can tell...and I can imagine that part of why it's not selling is because it's so untamed. I see people all the time driving by real slow looking at my lawn and then taking a picture of the For Sale sign on the lot next to me. My neighbors tell me all the time people stop and ask them if the house is included. It's an overgrown mess which I have the pleasure this year of mowing and hitting with whatever I want (owners permission). Believe me, nature will not have its way with this one.

The weeds are literally leaning towards the Milorganite loaded soil on my side :shock:

I'm glad we don't have water restrictions out here in Arkansas. I enjoy using it and paying for what I use.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I'll shrug off anyone whose viewpoint is " 'chemical' is just another way of saying 'poison' ". Small minded hippies who don't understand the world they live in. Water is a chemical, so are pharmaceuticals and essential oils and everything you put in your body and on your lawn. Every one of them has a toxicity to the environment and humans at a certain dosage. Some herbicides have toxicities at normal application rates some don't. Go take a bath in Roundup you'll be fine; Diquat, on the other hand, requires only a small exposure to cause mutations in rats for cancer studies (These are the findings of a toxicologist with Ph.D.s in Biology and Biochemistry which differ from an unqualified California jury). 
The concept that a lawn in not environmentally friendly though has some merit to it. Most homeowners will dump bags of fertilizer and jugs of herbicides on the lawn without considering what their grass actually needs. This is definitely detrimental to the environment and can cause a whole host of issues. 
A healthy stand of grass does not require much to maintain an appearance at 7/10 just carefully dosed fertilizer and water and the occasional spot spray of weeds or pulling them by hand. Grass does have the natural benefit of holding water and preventing runoff and soil erosion. A maintained lawn is always going to be less environmentally friendly than a field but very few people enjoy the threat of ticks, snakes, and other pests that thrive in unkempt grass. 
As far as water usage, that's a non-issue in the midwest for the most part. I grew up in a house with a well and a septic so its a closed system as far as water usage goes. 
Everything in moderation. If you throw down massive amounts of herbicides and fertilizers you are going harm the environment and probably yourself in the process.


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

If you want to really get riled up, I came across this thread this morning: https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/be2zg7/this_spring_plant_gardens_not_lawns/

I quite enjoy having both lawn and garden. I don't see why it has to be 100% one way or the other.


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## wafflesngravy (Apr 8, 2019)

I wouldn't say we ALL signed up this, every neighborhood has a few that didn't get the memo.


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

ErosionWizard said:


> Here in Cali the battle over water gets crazy.


Having lived In Southern California for roughy 10 years combined this is very true. However I feel a lot of the issue around watering lawns could be resolved if the state would ban Tall Fescue. Tall fescue should never be use for a lawn in most of the state. I lived in Temecula, 45 min north of San Diego, the amount of water to keep the fescue lawns alive during summer is insane. When the county puts heavy water restrictions all the fescue lawns die. I never understood it.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

The sun is green so is our lawns actually green?


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

There is a reason why people enjoy the look of a nicely kept lawn. There is a reason why cleaning up limbs, raking up leaves, mowing and trimming grass, pruning trees, and attending landscapes, all helps a property look "good" to the human eye.

[controversial]The reason is simple: From the very beginning, _we were created to "tend the garden."_ It's been our role for thousands of years.[/controversial]

The NYT article author is a part of a larger cabal of western society that would love nothing more than to destroy that narrative. They do this by lowering the value of human life, and elevating the value of nature and the earth. From the loud attempts like global warming, to the insidious ones like 'lawns are bad', each is a cacophony of waves in an angry sea that crash against the walls of our deeply held American culture and belief system.

Like others have said, however, knowledge is power. The best way to combat ideas born of ignorance or agenda is to answer with knowledge and understanding. That's where sites like TLF, however small, can help take the fight to those to dead set against the truth.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm pretty sure that I spot an Annual Rye seedhead in that pic @jjepeto


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If people want to see what "organic" lawn and land maintenance looks like, they need go no further than Hawaii. Most lawns consist of chopped down invasive species. The roadsides and utility corridors consist of much of the same. Because of the vocal activists here, AG production is virtually impractical save for some very small "organic" farms that are not very productive in terms of how much is produced per acre.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

I truly enjoy working on the lawn and providing the upkeep/nutrients needed. I know the outdoors work is good for me and for my grandkids being outside and active.

However, I would not be disappointed too much if we were told to let all lawns be natural or as nature can provide for. Cutting the "natural" lawn down to 3-4 inches and trimming would be mandatory. Watering would also be allowed for 30 min max per zone. This way all the lawns would be about the same and we would all get use to it over time...

Just a thought with many flaws I'm sure


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jjepeto said:


> If you want to really get riled up, I came across this thread this morning:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/be2zg7
> ...


We are brainwashed. We did it to ourselves willingly. But why give it up if you enjoy doing it?

Also, does "monoculture" in this context just refer to "grass" (which admittedly isn't all that diverse)? Because most lawns are technically not "monostands", but mixes of this species and that, or blends within a species.

I've stopped killing clover in part of the yard because having it there in the grass seems to improve the drought tolerance of the grass during Summer heat. Do I get points for that?

There was a house nearby that used to have both a beautiful fescue lawn and garden. The lawn did not look like lots of chemicals were used, but it obviously was fertilized and watered and looked good and some nice old trees. The new owners had all the trees removed a few years back, which also tore up the lawn, stopped maintaining it, etc. It's now bumpy, patchy, weedy, and has wood chips everywhere, and they tried to make it look better by planting some flowers in it. Is this the sort of thing that we're supposed to strive for according to these people? I don't see how that is healthier, or more visually appealing. It's like telling a woman who uses makeup and moisturizers that she should let her face go natural and age faster because it's somehow healthier or more visually appealing, or healthier for the environment. Or a person who likes to work out and take vitamin supplements that they should stop, lose their muscle and strength, and let their body revert to its natural state, and sit down more. What happens to them when they get older? They might not have the strength or flexibility to get out of a chair. How is that good?


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## testwerke (Apr 4, 2019)

dfw_pilot said:


> [controversial]The reason is simple: From the very beginning, _we were created to "tend the garden."_ It's been our role for thousands of years.[/controversial]


Genesis 1:28 has been repeating in my head lately.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2019)

An acre of grass soaks up I believe one ton of carbon a year. Releases O2.

I don't think a limited amount of something like weed b gone used in a year is a big deal environmentally.

Mowers emit pollution and watering a lawn a lot I could see issues/concerns. Using a good grass type for where you live makes sense environmentally. Killing off a perfectly good lawn I could see some concern.

The culture of lawn mowing originated in the 50's to "keep men busy" and to "keep up with the Joneses" and to have a beautiful lawn as a status symbol. It became a standard.

For me it is part hobby and partly a standard to keep a good lawn in my neighborhood. I also do like some wildflower and microclover lawns. But not as much as my cool season grass. I do think natural self sustaining weed lawns will become more common in the future.


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## llO0DQLE (Dec 4, 2017)

ctrav said:


> However, I would not be disappointed too much if we were told to let all lawns be natural or as nature can provide for. Cutting the "natural" lawn down to 3-4 inches and trimming would be mandatory. Watering would also be allowed for 30 min max per zone. This way all the lawns would be about the same and we would all get use to it over time...
> 
> Just a thought with many flaws I'm sure


Nope.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Isn't this weather/area dependent? I get why people get angry seeing a green lawn in the middle of the desert during a drought (like in LA or Las Vegas), but in places where the weather supports it, who has an issue? This is coming from a person in the Providence/Boston area where I have not heard of this anti-lawn movement at all. I know people are planting more clover, but that is more because people don't want to cut it as often, these are not "lawn" people.


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## zinger565 (Nov 28, 2017)

bosox_5 said:


> Isn't this weather/area dependent? I get why people get angry seeing a green lawn in the middle of the desert during a drought (like in LA or Las Vegas), but in places where the weather supports it, who has an issue? This is coming from a person in the Providence/Boston area where I have not heard of this anti-lawn movement at all. I know people are planting more clover, but that is more because people don't want to cut it as often, these are not "lawn" people.


Kinda. I've seen a lot of people against the "chemical" side of nice lawns. Things like the "dandelions are not weeds" and the local co-op has "chemical free lawn" signs for people to put in their yard. Love my co-op, but they can be a bit reactionary/buzzword-happy at times.

Problem is, everything is a "chemcial". There are organic ways to feed a lawn, but a properly educated lawn owner will know how to apply almost any chemical responsibly. Unfortunately people have lost trust in proper scientific studies and generally disbelieve most results.

I'll admit, there's a part of one of my hell strips that's got some clover and wild violet and I've debated just letting it go. The grass really struggles there. Traffic, trees, lack of sunlight are just a few issues.


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## llO0DQLE (Dec 4, 2017)

jjepeto said:


> If you want to really get riled up, I came across this thread this morning:
> 
> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/gardening/comments/be2zg7


It's not a brainwashing, people have not been subjected to propaganda or lies in order to get them to love lawns. In fact, most people (AFAIK, and obviously this depends on the area) are not that into lawns. People that do it do it because the aesthetic appeals to them or they find some value in it. And what does it matter if it's a nonnative monoculture? There are a lot of noxious native weeds, does that mean they're good and what you should grow in your yard just because it's "nonnative" and it's not a monoculture if you have a variety of noxious weeds? And, in the grand scheme of things, if you have a typical lot and have a few thousand sq feet of lawn that is providing you a benefit (aesthetics, soft playground for kids, curb appeal, increased property value etc), what's wrong with having that in your property? They're so worried about the small patch of grass on your property that provides oxgyen, uses up carbon, prevents erosion and is a home to an ecosystem of bugs and worms etc but they completely ignore the fact that in suburban communities, we've already destroyed the forest/farmland/grassland/whatever in order to pave roads and build structures (houses, strip malls etc) instead? Hey, if these hippies wanna grow a variety of weeds in their yards and deal with snakes, rodents and spiders instead of nice lush green grass to relax and play on, they can go ahead. I will keep my soft carpet of green grass. And all this can be done with very minimal chemical use. Actually, last year for my backyard, out of laziness, I just stuck to hand pulling thistles and dandelions here and there while playing with my son and didn't bother to take out the sprayer and spray 2,4-D. With proper cultural practices, my lawn is still pretty thick and has very low weed pressure and I did not even have to use any chemicals, maybe except for some spot spraying once or twice.


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## BadDad (Mar 13, 2019)

I did a huge paper on this while attending university...

Where do people think the water goes? My yard isn't a black hole where h2o is broken down and disappeared from the earth.

Killing bugs is bad? Sure killing invasive beetles and mosquitos and poisonous spiders is super bad for my community... don't spray flowering plants and trees with bug killers and the bees thrive on my half acre.

Having green grass and thriving flowering bushes flowers and trees is a detriment? Bees are good, co2 consumption into Oxygen is pretty sweet.

The pollutants from the lawn equipment? My lawn far out wins in the whole footprint argument, it's not even close with the technology even these "simple" small engines produce in terms of pollutants or soot. Hell the soot can be a fert.

Fertilizer is a chemical? Not all that true, it's piss and shit in a huge amount of the "chemical" granulars. Urea and poop is gonna exist and my lawn and soil transforms it into many benefits.

Preemergents are bad? That's weird, some trees and plants produce their own in one way or another. Shade or straight oils. Don't throw preemergent in the drains and I think you will be ok.

My lawn in the few years I lived here is watered by hose and timers in spring and fall, to wake up and keep awake respectively. I can't imagine anyone is worried about the grubs and June bugs that aren't controlled well by natural predators in many suburbs semi country or urban areas. When did recycling chicken and cow pee and poop become a bad thing? It's the same people that say cow farts are a disaster and our world is ending in 10 years. Wild Cows were here before us, ive seen wild herds and the devastation the do, let alone they fart too.

I'm not forcing my soil to do anything it doesn't want to do. In fact most of us are enhancing it with beneficials that provide benefits to all living things any numerous ways.

Have fun gents, you are fighting for the environment if you lawn nut responsibly.


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