# Overseed vs fall pre emergent for poa - novice



## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Hey all,

Been working on the lawn with the help of everyone on this forum and have made nice progress.

Last spring I had a decent lawn , then summer hit and I had these awful dead spots despite following good irrigation practices.

Then I overseeded in the fall, predominantly tall turf type fescue. No fall pre emergent.

This spring I'm seeing a bunch of poa a (what I think is poa) in the same spots that I think were brown last summer.

So I did two apps of tenacity and I had white patches all over the yard.

The white patches are gone now and I've raked up the dead stuff.

I'm sure I didn't get all the poa a because I can see it still. I'm fearful this summer I'll have dead brown spots again.

So I'm unsure if I should overseed with tttf again or if I just go with a pre emergent in the fall to try and break this poa a cycle (if that's what it is). Any advice is helpful!!!

Brown spots in July 2018:


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Fall overseed 2018:


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Spring 2019 after tenacity:


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Spring 2019 2-3 weeks post tenacity:


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

I know this problem well, I lost 2 years wondering why I always dead spots in the summer, and why some grass was lighter than others. It was POA Annua the whole time.

First you have to figure out if it's POA Annua or POA Triv. Count your self lucky if the light spots have seed heads. That means it's POA Annua, Triv is impossible, Annua is a nuisance. Triv doesn't have seed heads like annua.

You have to realize there are millions of POA Annua seeds in the lawn. They last for years. Every year in late August to November they germinate if you don't put down a pre-m. Unfortunate that is when people also over-seed.

The only way I found to break the cycle was to reno with KBG that spreads on its own and very tolerant to high doses of Tenacity. I can kill large patches of POA and the KBG just fills in. That way I can always get the pre-m down. Yearly over-seeding is just as good for POA annua as it is for the grass your trying to fill in.

You don't have that luxury, maybe you can kill it with tenacity apps, then replace the areas with sod. Some people do that when they battle Triv that can only be killed in the spring.

Plan on battling POA Annua every year, even with a pre_m, but on my 1st spring after a pre-m I have a lot less. I should have smaller more isolated pockets every year, but there will always be some, and the tenacity will be a yearly spring practice.

Last bit of advice, don't assume the POA annua is dead even if it's all shriveled up, you would be surprised the spots that came back mid June on me once I reached the tenacity limit. Pull large clumps even if it seems dead, pull it out just in case. The sections I hand pulled never came back, the sections I thought would rot away, came back.

Good luck!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

bkel101, can you give us some close up's of the lighter green grass? The light green in the fall overseed pictures is not poa A and I'm curious what it is. Not saying you have poa T but based on these pic's, the thought occurs to me, particularly the dead spots in July pics and I can see a couple huge oaks/maples? Does your front door face East? For this pics, would be good to get closeup of the leaf blade and the ligule. See the vid below for how to ID the ligule. Will try to help if I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JiqIbIM7OQ


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

bkel101, one more question. Did you examine the dead spots in July? Do they look like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgKcG0ivCmQ


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> bkel101, can you give us some close up's of the lighter green grass? The light green in the fall overseed pictures is not poa A and I'm curious what it is. Not saying you have poa T but based on these pic's, the thought occurs to me, particularly the dead spots in July pics and I can see a couple huge oaks/maples? Does your front door face East? For this pics, would be good to get closeup of the leaf blade and the ligule. See the vid below for how to ID the ligule. Will try to help if I can.


This is great, I'll try and get pics and close ups posted this afternoon


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

NELawn said:


> I know this problem well, I lost 2 years wondering why I always dead spots in the summer, and why some grass was lighter than others. It was POA Annua the whole time.
> 
> First you have to figure out if it's POA Annua or POA Triv. Count your self lucky if the light spots have seed heads. That means it's POA Annua, Triv is impossible, Annua is a nuisance. Triv doesn't have seed heads like annua.
> 
> ...


So basically overseed in fall and tenacity in spring? And just live with the battle?

I def have lots of seed heads


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

Bkell101 said:


> So basically overseed in fall and tenacity in spring? And just live with the battle?
> I def have lots of seed heads


KBG is the secret weapon because....

1.) It spreads on its own so you can use a pre-m in the fall
2.) It is very resistant to tenacity, not sure how TTTF is
3.) You can allow the lawn to go dormant in the summer w/o dyeing, which kills the POA

In your case...

Check the Tencity labels for your lawn, but definitely at least come up with a tenacity schedule and kill what you can in the spring. I try to do a few tenacity apps, hurt the plants, then hand pull when I can because the roots are now weakened..

Come early August try to reseed, keeping in mind your trying to get your seed up before the nights get cooler and the POA germinates. Key to that would be use tenacity as a pre-m when over seeding. I have seem some do more tenacity sprayed at the 30 day mark, but that's with KBG, not sure how it is with TTTF.

Your goal is to get the TTTF to the point where you can get dimension down. Check the label but Dimension can be used 30 days after germination. If you got any new TTTF you were trying to grow and a few cuts in by Sept 1st, you can hit it with a Dimension app.

You may not prevent all the POA annua seeds with your Dimension app, and tenacity is not a fool proof way of preventing POA annua from germinating while seed, but that seems like one way to time it all to minimize POA Annua.

Some on here may disagree, but in my POA Annua infested yard, tenacity didn't do a great job as a pre-m when I was doing my KBG reno. But then again I watered too much also.

You will be back fighting it again in the spring, but you win the in increments, there isn't one magic herbicide that kills it all in one shot. A lot of peoples lawn problems would be solved if they were.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

NELawn said:


> Bkell101 said:
> 
> 
> > So basically overseed in fall and tenacity in spring? And just live with the battle?
> ...


Just to make sure I get it....rather than wait till late summer / early fall , overseed in the heat of early August in order to get the new grass ready for dimension right?


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

Yes, early so you can get a dimension app down to take care of the POA Annua before it starts to germinate.

You won't beat it, but you can limit it, if you hold the TTTf germination to about 3 weeks. But I'm not that familiar with it, I'd work backwards from Sept 1st.

Assume your going to drop Dimension on Sept 1st, then read the dimension label on how long after germination you can apply dimension, then plan on the worse case of how long it takes TTTF to germinate. That will give you a date you need to start.

Obviously some kind of automatic watering is essential when seeding in August, plus enough water to keep it alive post germination. Its not an easy trick in August a lot can go wrong.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Not saying this is a cheap solution, but it is what I am considering doing this summer/fall.
-Apply low rate Tenacity in late summer/early fall as temps start to approach Poa Annua germination timing.
-7-10 days later, overseed lawn and apply another low rate of Tenacity.
-7-10 days later, apply third low dose of tenacity. Make sure you aren't going above yearly limit.
-In theory, once roots are established, prodiamine/dimension could be used to prevent any further germination of Poa. I think I am skipping this step because I don't want to risk killing all my new/young seedlings. I may do a good month and a half after overseeding with fescue.
-Once TTTF is strong, apply 1 oz/gallon/1k of 42% Ethofumesate (Poa Constrictor, RightLine ETHO 4 SC, etc.).
-If timing permits and you feel it is required. Repeat another 1 oz/gallon/1k of 42% Ethofumesate.

The Tenacity should prevent the Poa Annua from emerging while still allowing you to overseed/patch your fescue grass. The ethofumesate will kill any small amount of Poa that you may miss with the Tenacity. Hopefully the following spring, there will be both strong new fescue and no Poa. Following years should just be a pre-m routine in the late summer/early fall to prevent.

EDIT: Another tool possibly worth considering is to pre-soaking/pre-germinate your seed by keeping it in a bucket of water before throwing out the seed. TTTF only takes about a day in a bucket of water I have heard. The advantage being that you are shortening the window for your seed to germinate and therefore reducing the Tenacity that you have to apply. Also would be reaching the point where it is safe to apply Prodiamine and Ethofumesate quicker.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

I have the lime green devil in my lawn too. I'm in Canada where it's a pita to get pre m and tenacity. My plan is to buy a ProPlugger, roundup the Poa and transplant some established grass into the spots I killed off.

As you don't have kbg you could consider this approach: apply pre m in the areas you had issues and pull some plugs from a place far away from the poa (backyard for example?) and then don't pre m that area and reseed there.

No idea if anyone's tried this approach before but worth pondering over.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> bkel101, can you give us some close up's of the lighter green grass? The light green in the fall overseed pictures is not poa A and I'm curious what it is. Not saying you have poa T but based on these pic's, the thought occurs to me, particularly the dead spots in July pics and I can see a couple huge oaks/maples? Does your front door face East? For this pics, would be good to get closeup of the leaf blade and the ligule. See the vid below for how to ID the ligule. Will try to help if I can.


Thanks for the video.

Here is some of the light green spots. (I'll get the other info for you too).


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Bkell101, looking at the first pic, that is a poa species which means it's very likely either poa annua, poa triv or poa pratensis (aka., kentucky blue grass). I've never seen a clump of annua look like that, particularly with no seed heads so I rule that out. I don't see any obvious ligule to rule out KBG but on the last pic, I THINK I can make it out. If there is a ligule then it's very likely Triv. If you watch that video I did showing the ligule, can you pull a few blades and see if you see that pointed, white-ish thing called the ligule? If you do NOT see it then it's likely KBG. Also, I don't see any obvious rhizomes in pic 1 but that is such a small piece that it doesn't make for a positive ID. However, everything else you've shown makes me think you've got a decent amount of triv in that yard. I don't doubt you also have annua and are seeing those seedheads but am saying you can easily have both. I'm asking about the front door because if those large oaks are blocking the southern sky then that furthers the case for triv. I don't need to know if they are oaks or maples, etc. Just curious what part of the sky they are blocking.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I've never seen KBG "string" that much when cut...


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

With Poa annua and tttf, I would seed late summer/ really early fall. Both mesotrione and ethofumesate can be sprayed at seed down. Repeat a second meso app and a second etho app. Then switch to a Prodiamine app. This will cover all winter and Poa annua won't be there in the spring. Repeat annually for a few years. This is only for tttf, not kbg or rye.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> With Poa annua and tttf, I would seed late summer/ really early fall. Both mesotrione and ethofumesate can be sprayed at seed down. Repeat a second meso app and a second etho app. Then switch to a Prodiamine app. This will cover all winter and Poa annua won't be there in the spring. Repeat annually for a few years. This is only for tttf, not kbg or rye.


This is great. What would your regiment be if you
Have KBG and rye?


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > With Poa annua and tttf, I would seed late summer/ really early fall. Both mesotrione and ethofumesate can be sprayed at seed down. Repeat a second meso app and a second etho app. Then switch to a Prodiamine app. This will cover all winter and Poa annua won't be there in the spring. Repeat annually for a few years. This is only for tttf, not kbg or rye.
> ...


KBG would have some issues with this method. You need to wait 6 weeks after application to apply seed. Then you need to wait 8 after germination to reapply ethofumesate. Could use it the following year on established kbg though. Then let the kbg creep to fill gaps instead of overseeding.

Meanwhile with TTTF, ethofumesate can be put down at seed and reapplied 2-3 weeks after germinating.


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## Flying Aces (Jun 7, 2017)

@tgreen You mentioned a clump that big without seed heads, curious if you see Poa T with seed heads or is it a Poa A/KBG thing?


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## The Walri (Nov 27, 2018)

tgreen said:


> bkel101, one more question. Did you examine the dead spots in July? Do they look like this


Thanks for the great video @to green! Unfortunately it made me realize I have a few areas with extensive Triv in my backyard where every summer it does and pulls up like that in droves...always figured it was grub damage. Guess I have my work cut out for me...but it gives me even more reason to get moving on a KBG Reno I've been thinking about 🤔


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

Sorry to hear about the Triv, killing it is impossible.

You can kill it with round up, but it often still comes back, its a multi year process. You can try and kill it slow with multiple round up apps in the spring before it goes dormant, once it yellows for summer, you have to wait another year.

Even if you kill it with RU and remove the soil, it often comes back. If going the RU route, make sure you spray an area of about 1' past it. No matter what you do; sod or re-seeding will have to be done, but with Triv don't just assume it will be gone because you reno the lawn.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Drewmey said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Suburban Jungle Life said:
> ...


Agreed. Kbg, I would do a reno and seed with meso. That's it. Poa annua will be there the first fall and spring but should die out in the summer heat. Apply Prodiamine late summer before poa annua germinates. Rely on kbg's spreading power to fill gaps and thicken. Use a proplugger for bigger gaps. Annual use of Prodiamine or some prem before poa annua germinates takes care of it.

Rye, seed and spray meso. In 2 weeks, you'll have a nice lawn. Rye establishes fast. In a month, if you have empty spots, repeat with seed and meso. Switch to Prodiamine later. Rye is easy...

I would only bother with etho for tttf. But, boy does it work! I did a reno and I'm poa free!


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## The Walri (Nov 27, 2018)

Thanks for the advice guys - sounds like a good plan moving forward. You make it sound almost manageable &#128514;


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Flying Aces said:


> @tgreen You mentioned a clump that big without seed heads, curious if you see Poa T with seed heads or is it a Poa A/KBG thing?


Poa T does go to seed but a few major differences from annua. 1) Annua goes to seed at incredibly short heights (under 1 inch) vs Poa T. 2) Poa T is a spike seedhead like KBG whereas annua is an open, panicle shape. The look is totally different 3) Seed timing is different. Poa A practically goes to seed as soon as it emerges. I can have snow on the ground and see small Poa A seed heads. Triv seed timing is more like KBG where you get a flush later in Spring than Poa A. Here's another vid I did where you can see Poa A very short already seeding vs Poa T at 4 inches and no where close to seeding.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

The Walri said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > bkel101, one more question. Did you examine the dead spots in July? Do they look like this
> ...


Glad it helped. At least you know what you're dealing with now. The other person is right that a fall reno will probably not completely eradicate it long term, unfortunately. That was my experience at least.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Bkell101 said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > bkel101, can you give us some close up's of the lighter green grass? The light green in the fall overseed pictures is not poa A and I'm curious what it is. Not saying you have poa T but based on these pic's, the thought occurs to me, particularly the dead spots in July pics and I can see a couple huge oaks/maples? Does your front door face East? For this pics, would be good to get closeup of the leaf blade and the ligule. See the vid below for how to ID the ligule. Will try to help if I can.
> ...


All of this is great guys...

Oak tree is east of the lime green patches. Worst of the lime green patches are actually sunniest part of yard. House is south of yard and blocks quite of a bit of sun too.

Here is from some of the lime green patches:


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

The pics above have no seed head. Hopefully it's not triv.

Here are pics of parts with what I think is a poa seed on other parts of the lawn:


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

So do I have both poa a and poa triv?


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Bkell101, looking at the first pic, that is a poa species which means it's very likely either poa annua, poa triv or poa pratensis (aka., kentucky blue grass). I've never seen a clump of annua look like that, particularly with no seed heads so I rule that out. I don't see any obvious ligule to rule out KBG but on the last pic, I THINK I can make it out. If there is a ligule then it's very likely Triv. If you watch that video I did showing the ligule, can you pull a few blades and see if you see that pointed, white-ish thing called the ligule? If you do NOT see it then it's likely KBG. Also, I don't see any obvious rhizomes in pic 1 but that is such a small piece that it doesn't make for a positive ID. However, everything else you've shown makes me think you've got a decent amount of triv in that yard. I don't doubt you also have annua and are seeing those seedheads but am saying you can easily have both. I'm asking about the front door because if those large oaks are blocking the southern sky then that furthers the case for triv. I don't need to know if they are oaks or maples, etc. Just curious what part of the sky they are blocking.


This chart from osu is saying that multiple species have Ligules? I'm confused!!😀


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

bkell101, first, I do believe you've got a lot of triv in that yard. I base this on several things:

1) The fall overseed pics show a lot of light green contrast. This in itself is not a conclusive triv diagnosis but does call for a closer look.
2) The second set of pics tell me this is a poa species based on the folded vernation and appearance of the leaf blade. There are only three realistic options for an id at that point which is annual, rough or kentucky bluegrass.
3) The first pic on set of pics you posted yesterday at 4:04 tells me this is not poa annua. Poa Annua nearly always has seed heads on it and the plant you are showing has no seedheads. Besides, it looks nothing like annua in my experience.
4) It's now down to either kentucky bluegrass or poa triv. The last pic of the set you posted at 8:43 this morning shows a clear pointed (and substantial) ligule. You would never see that on kentucky bluegrass.
5) Other factors considered is the dead (dormant) grass in the first set of pics. That is consistent with dormant poa triv at the time of year you took that pic.

You question about the ligule is a good one and this is why you need to take many factors into consideration for the ID. No single one is enough and you are right that all sorts of grass, weeds, etc have a ligule. I can tell you from experience though that KBG does not have a pointed ligule. Your chart shows it has a short ligule which is true but you have to look very, very closely to make it out vs poa t which is usually obvious unless the plant is being mowed short. The KBG ligule is very short and flat, not pointed.

The annua seedheads you are seeing are not surprising. I can almost guarantee that if you looked in any lawn in Cincy you would find poa A. It's incredibly common and I would say almost everyone has at least some of it in their yard.

Let's see what happens. If I'm right, those dead spots will come back this summer. Take a close look at them. They should lift off the ground easily and if you flip them over should have a spaghetti like appearance. That is not dead annua.

The treatment for annua and triv is totally different. Digest the above though first and maybe others on the board will disagree with the ID. If you want to discuss options, let me know. I've done a bunch of youtube vids on control and there are others on here that have a lot of experience with control attempts. In the meantime, you may like this article

https://www.golfdom.com/an-integrated-strategy-for-controlling-poa-trivialis/


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Bkell101, looking at the first pic, that is a poa species which means it's very likely either poa annua, poa triv or poa pratensis (aka., kentucky blue grass). I've never seen a clump of annua look like that, particularly with no seed heads so I rule that out. I don't see any obvious ligule to rule out KBG but on the last pic, I THINK I can make it out. If there is a ligule then it's very likely Triv. If you watch that video I did showing the ligule, can you pull a few blades and see if you see that pointed, white-ish thing called the ligule? If you do NOT see it then it's likely KBG. Also, I don't see any obvious rhizomes in pic 1 but that is such a small piece that it doesn't make for a positive ID. However, everything else you've shown makes me think you've got a decent amount of triv in that yard. I don't doubt you also have annua and are seeing those seedheads but am saying you can easily have both. I'm asking about the front door because if those large oaks are blocking the southern sky then that furthers the case for triv. I don't need to know if they are oaks or maples, etc. Just curious what part of the sky they are blocking.


So do I have triv?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

> So do I have triv?


yes, see above reply


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> bkel101, one more question. Did you examine the dead spots in July? Do they look like this


I did but I can't remember.

I'be tried to post a few times today but it hasn't gone through. Either way, here is another shot of the lime green patches:

Is this triv?


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

Sorry for the multiple posts, phone wasn't showing the second page of the thread! &#128532;


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

NELawn said:


> Sorry to hear about the Triv, killing it is impossible.
> 
> You can kill it with round up, but it often still comes back, its a multi year process. You can try and kill it slow with multiple round up apps in the spring before it goes dormant, once it yellows for summer, you have to wait another year.
> 
> Even if you kill it with RU and remove the soil, it often comes back. If going the RU route, make sure you spray an area of about 1' past it. No matter what you do; sod or re-seeding will have to be done, but with Triv don't just assume it will be gone because you reno the lawn.


This is depressing.
I got the triv.
I got the poa a.

What now?

I'll roundup now and sod, but you guys are saying I'm still prObably screwed?


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> The Walri said:
> 
> 
> > tgreen said:
> ...


I read the article you posted and to me it seems like round up in the spring and sod is the best route?


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

I use poaconstruction for two years didn't have much luck with that. Last fall apply minimum rate of prodianine in august than roundup part of the lawn in september top dress and over seeded. Another application of .15 dimension was done early March this year And still had tons poa A come back. Probably this year will try to apply 5lb of .15 demansion in August aerate in late September and over seed with Tenasity. Does that sounds crazy??? Thanks.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> I use poaconstruction for two years didn't have much luck with that. Last fall apply minimum rate of prodianine in august than roundup part of the lawn in september top dress and over seeded. Another application of .15 dimension was done early March this year And still had tons poa A come back. Probably this year will try to apply 5lb of .15 demansion in August aerate in late September and over seed with Tenasity. Does that sounds crazy??? Thanks.


Can you post some pics of the poa annua? Where is it located? Next to the beds? Out in the open? How high do you mow the lawn?


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

I have only 1 picture on phone for now. Will do more tomorrow


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

Usually move lawn around 3". Time from time drop the blades all the way down in areas with poa A.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> I have only 1 picture on phone for now. Will do more tomorrow


Picture is blurry so please post more. Am curious what the overall yard looks like. Do you have shade or other reasons why the grass is thin. Even though blurry, that does look like Poa A.

Here is what I'd do. First, you want to establish a thick and tall lawn in the Fall, if possible. Don't mow below 3.5 inch especially in the poa annua area. You want to outcompete the poa annua in the fall. Second, you don't want to apply dimension before you overseed. I've done some experiments that I posted on youtube re dimension apps before seeding but I don't necessarily recommend doing it on purpose. I would overseed in early to mid september and then apply dimension two weeks after the new grass germinates. This preM timing is late for poa annua but I would still do it. In the late winter/ early spring, I would consider applying a post emergent like Xonerate. Xonerate is expensive but is the only post emergent Poa A chemical that I have experience with. You need air temps above 55 for Xonerate.

The most important thing is to understand why you are not getting a thick turf stand established in the Fall.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Kissfromnick said:
> 
> 
> > I have only 1 picture on phone for now. Will do more tomorrow
> ...


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)




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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

Here soil test.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)




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## airgas1998 (May 1, 2019)

so I have poa a as well, but I have it only where the grass is very thin or none at all. can I just dig it up throw it away and reseed in those spots in the fall? or are there existing seed heads in that soil? if so, can I bring new soil over into those spots?
I want to stress my issue is only in a handful of isolated spots it's only in the section of lawn where it was really shady and thin. I have removed a large ash tree which will help in providing more sun into those areas.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


>


Looks like there could be a lot going on here. In pic 1, looks like there is some possible triv maybe. Pic 3, I cant tell if those are seedheads or if it's something else like chickweed. If we want to do this right, I really need better and closer pics. Pic 1, can you pull the light green grass and give us a pic of the blade and see if there is a ligule? Look at my vids on youtube please, under 'tgreen' and poa t identification. That could help you or at least will help you know what to take pics of so we can help ID it. Then on pic 3, need to see what is creating the color contrast. Are those large amounts of seedheads?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

airgas1998 said:


> so I have poa a as well, but I have it only where the grass is very thin or none at all. can I just dig it up throw it away and reseed in those spots in the fall? or are there existing seed heads in that soil? if so, can I bring new soil over into those spots?
> I want to stress my issue is only in a handful of isolated spots it's only in the section of lawn where it was really shady and thin. I have removed a large ash tree which will help in providing more sun into those areas.


Poa annua creates massive amounts of seed so it's definitely in your soil. I would guess 99.9% of people have annua in their lawn somewhere so it's nothing to panic about. If it doesn't bother you that much I'd leave it alone and focus on other things. I personally don't bother trying to control it. If it does bother you and if it were me, then I'd be looking to 1) establish as much grass as possible in the fall and mow at 3.5 inch or higher. A thick lawn mowed that high should not have a ton of annua in the spring 2) you can lay a preemergent in the fall and either skip tall fescue overseed (if that's what you have) or put it down two weeks after fescue germination, which is admittedly late for preM on poa A. You will still have Poa A break through but it should be less. For me, giving up a fall overseed of fescue to try to control poa A is not worth it and it may be counterproductive in that you now have thin grass, albeit with a preM down. 3) there are post emergents for poa A. The one I'm familiar with is Xonerate and it's very effective (I spot sprayed a bit of annua out of curiosity) and you can start using at 55 air temp. Problem is that Poa A almost emerges with seedheads on it so you need to act fast and frankly, probably won't get it all.

Maybe others on here with direct experience controlling PA will give a better answer. Good luck.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


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 Looks like two different types to me


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> tgreen said:
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Pics 2 and 3 combined with pic 3 from previous post look very much like poa A to me. Pic 1 is also a poa and NOT poa A so is either Kentucky Bluegrass or poa Triv. For a positive id on pic 1, we need to see if there is a ligule or not. I think I see it in your pic but not 100% clear. See video below. If you see the pointed ligule, then it's triv. If not it's KBG.

Looks like you've got a lot of Poa A so let's talk about that. It should die in the hot weather, say mid-june or so. A couple questions about LAST year:

1) did you apply a pre emergent? If so when month? What month(s)?
2) Do you put new grass seed down? If so, when? What species of grass seed did you use, for example, tall fescue, kentucky bluegrass, etc?
3) If you did spread seed, did it germinate and grow? What did your lawn look like in mid October? Was it thick and green or were there a lot of bare areas or areas with dead weeds?


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


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LawnDoctor apply pre emergent mid of April than i apply prodiamine 65 August 1. Third week of September Roundup some parts next day top dress with compost and overseeded and cover with peatmose two weeks later was nice and green See the pictures for the seeds using those seeds for many years. I believe when we going to get more warmer weather gross would be more lush nights still low 40. I'm always do the pots seeding when overstating lawn and they still tiny. March i trow dimansion .15 0-0-7 at 5lb for 1k and Air8 with Rgs. Didn't mechanical aerate Because was over seeded lost fall. Thanks for all help.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

This is a tough one. The August preemergent timing could be part of the problem. If you did a full rate in both April and August then that's also a lot of preM. I would expect you would have difficulty with your September seed but you are saying within two weeks of seeding KBG and TF you have good green grass. That's too fast for KBG seed to have germinated and even the tall fescue would be at a seedling stage. This makes me wonder if you have a good amount of poa triv in the yard. Poa triv responds well to the cool temps at that time of year as well as the fertilizer and large amount of watering you're doing on the new seed at the same time. It could be that you are mistaking the thriving poa triv for new grass. Still this doesn't explain how you have so much Poa A so I'm wondering if our definition of a 'thick' lawn is different.

Here's what I would do. Definitely do NOT apply the August preemergent. At best, you're getting no benefit from it. Warm season weeds like crabgrass are not germinating at that time (you'll still see a lot of mature crab but it's just not germinating at that time). At worst, it's inhibiting your grass seed from maturing.

Do your seeding like you did last year. You might try to do it a little earlier, like a week or two but only if temps are not unusually high. I would skip any preemergents in the fall altogether. The goal is to get your lawn as thick as possible in the Fall which should outcompete the annua in the Fall and Spring.

Maybe you'll get some other advice from someone who's dealt with this but that's my best advice. Let us know what you do and how it goes. Good luck


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Nick, see my above reply too. On this pic, I still can't tell if there is a ligule but you do seem to have a clump of grass with 1) Kentucky bluegrass (the blade with the midrib that is darker green than the other) and 2) poa trivialis (likely) and then 3) I do see some tall fescue. So, your Barenbrug blend appears as advertised.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


> Nick, see my above reply too. On this pic, I still can't tell if there is a ligule but you do seem to have a clump of grass with 1) Kentucky bluegrass (the blade with the midrib that is darker green than the other) and 2) poa trivialis (likely) and then 3) I do see some tall fescue. So, your Barenbrug blend appears as advertised.


 First of all thanks for your time. I just watch your YouTube video and check closely yes it is poa trivialis. I don't care about crabgrass when we go house 6 years ago it was a 20,000 square-foot of pure crabgrass three years of fighting and I'm almost free now time for poa a 😁. Whats you opinion about 2-3 applications of Tenasity one week apart?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > Nick, see my above reply too. On this pic, I still can't tell if there is a ligule but you do seem to have a clump of grass with 1) Kentucky bluegrass (the blade with the midrib that is darker green than the other) and 2) poa trivialis (likely) and then 3) I do see some tall fescue. So, your Barenbrug blend appears as advertised.
> ...


You can try it. Don't think you'll hurt anything but make sure you don't go over the label rate or you might have a problem. I don't think it's going to work though.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


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Will follow your recommendations for this year and will add Tenasity treatment. I try it 2 years ago didn't really work but i see some people here saying it working. Thanks.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


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 What kind of grass this? to me is doesn't look like Poa A or poa T.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I'm in the camp of breaking the chain. Put down pre-m in fall. Get the poa seeds to germ n die.

Then work toward getting the grass good.

Might be controversial but if you have a decent lawn, im not sure how much benefit you will get feom seeding.

Push the fert in fall and earrerly spring and ecourage spreading.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


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That looks like poa T. If you could show the pointed ligule that would confirm it.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


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 That's what I figured out as well. Xorenate Supposed to arrived next week.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I'm experimenting with xonerate + tenacity. 50 days into the trial the triv is regrowing. Xonerate isn't working for me. It's labeled for annua and appears to work fine on that, in my limited experience. I'm planning to update the youtube vid I'm doing on xonerate in a couple weeks. Just hit it for a third time yesterday and am now over the label rate.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Not sure if this has already been posted yet or not ... also not sure if it is a sticky yet but, if not, it sure oughta be (be real neat if anyone typing POA Ann... was automatically directed to it! 

Sure hope it helps (it has sure helped me overseed AND apply my pre-emergents! :thumbup:

*https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=7168&p=135727#p135727

From Suburban Jungle Life Weds MAR 20, 2019:

I apply meso (Tenacity) at 0.184floz/M and etho (Poa Constrictor) 1.5floz/M the day of seeding. 
I seed once summer heat breaks but not long after. If you seed late, poa will have germinated already. 
Etho is safe 2 weeks post germination so I reapply 4 weeks after seeding. 
Meso is safe 4 weeks after germinaton so I apply that 6 weeks after seeding. 
I usually don't have a long fall so I don't bother with Prodiamine but if you do, that is 2 months post germination. 
I do use Prodiamine in the spring though.

Seeding, meso, etho.
4 weeks post seeding, etho
6 weeks post seeding, meso
8 weeks post seeding, Prodiamine if needed.
Spring, Prodiamine before poa germinates.*


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I was going to comment but... Beat me to it! I will say that the above post is for fescue. Rye has slightly different needs for etho so timing can be adjusted. Kbg, unless you are seeding, I would just apply Prodiamine at the end of summer before the heat breaks. This will stop poa annua and then hit it with fert to spread. Keep the pre barrier solid fall, winter, and spring.

None of this applies to triv...


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

Just want to share my experience with poa a and poa triv i apply low rate tenacity 14 days ago and tenacity with xoranete 7 days ago looks like poa t dying. Planing to do another treatment next week.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@tgreen, I agree with your species identification. But I want to add that KBG and Triv have the panicle shape seedhead, too. They just don't seem to open up as fast as annua. So they do look like a spike initially.

This year, I had Triv producing seeds like crazy. KBG, too...but that always happens.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Nick, saw this article and thought of you on the overseed vs preM for your annua problem. I still say you go for establishing a thick stand in the fall. Quoting from end of article

"_From a practical standpoint, the most effective strategy is to utilize cultural practices (including seeding) in fall that maximize turf growth and minimizes sunlight penetrating through the canopy. Soil shading is the best defense against annual bluegrass_."

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2019/04/annual-bluegrass-poa-annua-spring-invasion/


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> Just want to share my experience with poa a and poa triv i apply low rate tenacity 14 days ago and tenacity with xoranete 7 days ago looks like poa t dying. Planing to do another treatment next week.


Just curious to see if you have had any updates on your battle as of late? You still getting promising results?


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Kissfromnick said:
> 
> 
> > Just want to share my experience with poa a and poa triv i apply low rate tenacity 14 days ago and tenacity with xoranete 7 days ago looks like poa t dying. Planing to do another treatment next week.
> ...


In areas where xenorate was done according to label dont see any regrowing in some areas where was mixed with tanesity and wasn't watered in looks like regrowing will try 1 more treatment next week. But definitely wipe out poa A from lawn don't see any.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

tgreen said:


> Nick, saw this article and thought of you on the overseed vs preM for your annua problem. I still say you go for establishing a thick stand in the fall. Quoting from end of article
> 
> "_From a practical standpoint, the most effective strategy is to utilize cultural practices (including seeding) in fall that maximize turf growth and minimizes sunlight penetrating through the canopy. Soil shading is the best defense against annual bluegrass_."
> 
> https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2019/04/annual-bluegrass-poa-annua-spring-invasion/


 Thanks for trying to help. My neighbor growing pure poa a so i spray xoranete on property line 12 days ago. Can see deference it's death the left side of the pictures and nice and green on the right side


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> bkell101, first, I do believe you've got a lot of triv in that yard. I base this on several things:
> 
> 1) The fall overseed pics show a lot of light green contrast. This in itself is not a conclusive triv diagnosis but does call for a closer look.
> 2) The second set of pics tell me this is a poa species based on the folded vernation and appearance of the leaf blade. There are only three realistic options for an id at that point which is annual, rough or kentucky bluegrass.
> ...


So I think I need your help....you sort of predicted what would happen this summer..."Let's see what happens. If I'm right, those dead spots will come back this summer. Take a close look at them. They should lift off the ground easily and if you flip them over should have a spaghetti like appearance. That is not dead annua.".......

So .....I have less dead spots, but definately have dead brown spots taht lift off the ground easily and flip up and look just like spaghetti. What does that mean and what route do I have to go from here?


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

What if I were to dig down 6 inches with the space in every area i have the dead brown spaghetti and then fill it with new dirt then overseed?


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Kissfromnick said:


> Just want to share my experience with poa a and poa triv i apply low rate tenacity 14 days ago and tenacity with xoranete 7 days ago looks like poa t dying. Planing to do another treatment next week.


For such a thick stand of it, is it really worth not just spraying Glypho and being done with it after a few apps? With Tenacity you risk it coming back, probably even more so than Glypho, and you basically nuked that entire section save a few strands of grass it looks like.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Bkell101 said:


> tgreen said:
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> 
> > bkell101, first, I do believe you've got a lot of triv in that yard. I base this on several things:
> ...


The most straightforward approach would be to rake out the dead spots and reseed. I would also spray roundup in those area you rake-out and also maybe a foot or so into the good grass. Expect the poa triv to come back next year but not as widespread.

I sort of remember this lawn but have not read through all the old posts to refresh my memory but I think you should probably think about killing off the entire lawn and reseeding it. Maybe next year after you see what happens with the above approach. I would not start digging. Too much work, won't work and will make your lawn lumpy.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> Bkell101 said:
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So I am terrified of total renovation since I'm such a rookie...I figure wipe out yard and sod is more expensive but less risky.

I started with half the yard and have removed most of grass. Nearly 75% was triv and super easy to take up.

I'm concerned that since I never did round up that I'll lay sod over top of the soil, I'll have tei. Come back.

Should i wait for a bit to see if anything grows then spray round up? Or go ahead and just scalp off another inch or so if the soulxand lay the sod?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I would just spray roundup and go. Are you sure you want to sod? Seems like more work than seed. The triv is probably coming back either way but won't be as widespread.


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## Bkell101 (Jun 25, 2018)

tgreen said:


> I would just spray roundup and go. Are you sure you want to sod? Seems like more work than seed. The triv is probably coming back either way but won't be as widespread.


I'm leaning towards the sod rather than seed because I've never done a total Reno from seed and I don't have irrigation.

I feel like the watering and keeping seed moist and praying for no major rains that wash out your seed is harder than laying sod.

Of course I'll have to water the sod but I feel like it's less technical than an overseed.

So I guess I lack the confidence to be honest.


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