# Used Commercial or New Residential Zero Turn??



## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

Moved to a new, larger yard and need some help deciding between a used commercial or new residential zero turn.

The used option is a 2009 JOHN DEERE Z810A with less than 400 hrs on it. He is asking $4300 but I'm sure I can negotiate this much lower. Thinking closer to $3200. Worth noting is I believe this serial number was manufactured after Deere corrected the pump/power issues with a lot of the 08's. No PIP on it when I search the serial number.

New residential, I'm leaning towards an Ariens Ikon XD ($3,800). Thoughts on Kohler vs Kawi engine?

I fully understand I would never use the Deere to its potential but is the cheap overkill better than new residential?

Thanks!


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

IowaJoe said:


> Moved to a new, larger yard and need some help deciding between a used commercial or new residential zero turn.
> 
> The used option is a 2009 JOHN DEERE Z810A with less than 400 hrs on it. He is asking $4300 but I'm sure I can negotiate this much lower. Thinking closer to $3200. Worth noting is I believe this serial number was manufactured after Deere corrected the pump/power issues with a lot of the 08's. No PIP on it when I search the serial number.
> 
> ...


So clearly we are discussing a lawn larger than 3000 sq ft? :lol:

I would take the 7-Iron deck and commercial grade Kawasaki Engine on the Deere all-day, every day, vs a machine like the Ikon. Not a slight on the Ikon, just that a machine that sold for 2-3x that price new, 10 years ago, is going to have a lot heavier duty hardware onboard. Plus, Deere parts availability, and aftermarket support.

As far as Kawi vs Kohler, I'm pretty neutral. I've used and repaired both. The top tier engines from either, are exactly that, top-tier. Dropping down into the homeowner-grade equipment, I think I'd lean towards Kawi.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Always used Commercial if it's in good condition IMO.

If you go new I'd go Kawi over Kohler, but that's just from my own personal experiences.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

I went from a residential John Deere D110 lawn tractor to an entry level commercial Ferris IS 700 three years ago. the difference in durability is wild. the residential mower felt like plastic and tin while the commercial mower feels like its unbreakable. the commercial mower is SO MUCH heavier. even with much wider tires, i need to be more careful in soft ground.
the residential john deere also needed head gasket replacement at 130 hours, which was disappointing. BUT, John Deere service was as great and it came back better than new and is still being used by my dad. 
given your options, i would go for the John Deere.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Thejarrod said:


> ....
> the residential john deere also needed head gasket replacement at 130 hours, which was disappointing. BUT, John Deere service was as great and it came back better than new and is still being used by my dad.
> given your options, i would go for the John Deere.


The head gasket issue is kinda the calling card of the big (>16HP) single cyl Briggs Intek engine. Poor contact area in places around the cylinder wall. They seem to hold up OK after being replaced so not sure if the OEM gaskets were crap or if the head bolts just weren't torqued correctly.

Fun Fact: I got my start as a pro wrench with this engine. At the time, they were punching holes in the crankcase walls (counterweight issues) and puking camshafts, often twice. In addition to the head-gasket issues that have been present since the late 90's. The counterweights had an engineering tolerance stack-up that allowed them to contact the crankcase walls after a short break-in period. The cams had issues with the compression release mechanisms that lead to many of them being replaced under warranty. But that warranty replacement didn't usually include the tappets (lifters) :bd: so it was common for them to come in AGAIN for a 2nd cam, this time with tappets included. :thumbup: Most of these issues had calmed down by the time the D100 series came out. But I had many of them apart on Scotts, Sabre, and Deere L100 series machines.


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## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

Thanks for the input! I'm leaning toward the JD but just have no experience to justify it other than it looking better to me.

So if this guy is starting at $4300 for the Deere, what should I try and get it for? I've seen other 09's with a few hundred hours more for $3000-$3200. What's reasonable? 326 hours on it, to be exact.

He has ATV tires on it now and has original turf tires as well.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

IowaJoe said:


> Thanks for the input! I'm leaning toward the JD but just have no experience to justify it other than it looking better to me.
> 
> So if this guy is starting at $4300 for the Deere, what should I try and get it for? I've seen other 09's with a few hundred hours more for $3000-$3200. What's reasonable? 326 hours on it, to be exact.
> 
> He has ATV tires on it now and has original turf tires as well.


326 hours is nearly new. A commercial cutter would have more than that on it in the first month or two. He's probably not way off base with his pricing. 48" or 54" deck?


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

IowaJoe said:


> Thanks for the input! I'm leaning toward the JD but just have no experience to justify it other than it looking better to me.
> 
> So if this guy is starting at $4300 for the Deere, what should I try and get it for? I've seen other 09's with a few hundred hours more for $3000-$3200. What's reasonable? 326 hours on it, to be exact.
> 
> He has ATV tires on it now and has original turf tires as well.


I mean it's all about availability right? You were willing to go get an Ariens at $3800. 326 hours for an 09 seems REALLY low for even light commercial use.

I would assume he's starting at $4300 and planning to go down as low as $4K. If it was me and I had a $4300 price tag on something I was selling and somebody offered me $3K, I'm not sure I would even respond. If you can find some comps to justify $1K he might move a little more, but I think I'd be happy to walk away with it for around the $3800 you were thinking of spending on the Ariens.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Amoo316 said:


> IowaJoe said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the input! I'm leaning toward the JD but just have no experience to justify it other than it looking better to me.
> ...


Retail sales tax on a new machine would probably make $4k on the Deere a wash.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> Retail sales tax on a new machine would probably make $4k on the Deere a wash.


Oh I agree completely. I think the guy is looking for $4k, I think getting him down to $3800 would be a hell of a deal, but I would expect he wants $4k, and based on the hours, if it's in good working order with no leaks, issues...etc it's probably a fair price.


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## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> 326 hours is nearly new. A commercial cutter would have more than that on it in the first month or two. He's probably not way off base with his pricing. 48" or 54" deck?


48" deck. Again, way more than I need so actually more value to me than a 54". Owner used it on his own lawn, says he bought it with 50 hrs as a dealer demo mower.

So as this machine gets older, already 13+/- years old, I should be able to get parts etc? Have a hard time convincing myself that down the road a 20+ year old commercial will have had less problems than a 7 year old residential. But again no experience with commercial riders.



Amoo316 said:


> I mean it's all about availability right? You were willing to go get an Ariens at $3800. 326 hours for an 09 seems REALLY low for even light commercial use.
> 
> I would assume he's starting at $4300 and planning to go down as low as $4K. If it was me and I had a $4300 price tag on something I was selling and somebody offered me $3K, I'm not sure I would even respond. If you can find some comps to justify $1K he might move a little more, but I think I'd be happy to walk away with it for around the $3800 you were thinking of spending on the Ariens.


That's a good way to approach it. There are actually 2 810's available in my area right now, but the other is over an hour away with 600 hrs. He was willing to do $3K but it was also part of the early '08 issues that needed PIP fix.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

IowaJoe said:
 

> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> > 326 hours is nearly new. A commercial cutter would have more than that on it in the first month or two. He's probably not way off base with his pricing. 48" or 54" deck?
> ...


I doubt you'd have issues with either. You'd be putting the same number of hours on the machine in a season that commercial users run in a week.

Deere has an excellent track record with long-term parts availability.


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## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

I"m guessing it is in pretty good shape. Only time they aren't at those hours is an employee beaten unit and even then they have to try and beat it. I'd take the Deere all day long, no question. I don't think his asking price is bad either. It's hardly used. I wouldn't worry about the parts, Deere is likely going to have them available.


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## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> Deere has an excellent track record with long-term parts availability.


Thanks all!

Going to look at/test the JD tomorrow. Any tips or specific things I should be looking at or watching out for?

I know this thing will last 100 years at my usage rate, no question on the commercial durability, but do they deliver a higher cut quality than an Ikon or similar grade residential? I get the feeling that these commercial units are made for cranking through a week of lawns and being bombproof, not necessarily giving a super clean cut.

With my size lawn I don't need the speed, I barely even need a rider really, so definitely more interested in cut quality. Just don't want to invest in the wrong priority here.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Just for some piece of mind for you. If it's JD Commercial grade or JD Ag grade equipment, I would NEVER worry about the ability to find parts.

Yes we all know in today's world everything is delayed right now, but JD's support of "professional" stuff is hard to beat.

That's coming from somebody who was a JD fan until I used some of their "home owner" stuff, even if it was their top of the line homeowner stuff and had issues related to bad parts from the factory they knew about, but wouldn't replace until they actually failed. (which was REALLY low hours)

When it comes to cut quality, the 7 iron deck is right up there and probably surpasses anything in the residential space. I personally think Scag, JD and Ferris are all neck and neck in this department when it comes to commercial machines. I haven't used or tried all of them, but those are my 3 favorites in cut quality (Exmark is right there too). I feel Kubota is a small step behind those 4 and it's the ONLY reason my mower is a lighter shade of orange then I was originally hoping to get.


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## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

If the seller is asking $4300 and its still there its priced to high
Unless there is a small market for such model in your area or the sellers "marketing" or "exposer" is weak 
Go in with a price you would be happy to pay. If you have no use for the ATV tire use that as a price drop . 
Toss a offer at him and have a "middle ground" price you can be happy with. 
I dont know enough about lawn equipment models. To know better. I am in need of a new rider of some sort 18k sqft. Everything commercial I have looked at is worn hard, The few that have not been are only a few dollars less than new unit. Crazy market right now for everything.


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## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

the 7iron deck will give you an excellent cut quality, and yes, it can pump out a lot of lawns in a day week after week, all with as good of quality cut as any deck is going to give you.


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## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

So I tested the JD a few days ago and a few things caught my attention:

First, it felt like there was some play in the control arms. I could rock the sticks 3-4" back and forth before it would engage the motor. For me, this made it difficult to control, especially as slow speeds. It felt fine just cruising around but when I tested it when trying to stay tight to a lawn edge I had a hard time keeping it where I needed. Can this be tightened up somehow?

Adding to the control issues was that it felt kind of jumpy to me. This is a little tougher to describe, but again, when trying to be precise at a slower speed was tough, just didn't feel very smooth. Like I was constantly fighting it rather than just steering it naturally.

Not helping was that the sticks were way out of adjustment. Going straight meant the left stick was about an 1" in front of the right and they also crossed in the center when putting weight on them so I had to constantly be conscious of the bar ends bumping as I tested. The control bars would also fall away to the side without your hands on them, very loose (guessing this can just be tightened up).

I also was able to test an Exmark yesterday and it felt way more intuitive than the JD. Smoother, naturally straight tracking, and controlled.

What do you guys think? Anything here that I can correct with some attention and adjustment? I ended the test telling him I'd think about it.


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## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

sounds like it was adjusted for crap. I can't attest to the "jumpiness" on that particular machine other than to say some hydro drives seem more responsive than others and they all have been non issues for me thus far. You adapt to them rather quickly despite how quirky it feels at the start. Going from one hustler to the next felt different from hustler to Ferris and from a borrowed ztr to my ferris stand on. some were smoother at the start, but all were smooth after a few hours for me.


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## MattR (Sep 1, 2021)

Here's what I figure - it takes me about 1:15 minutes to mow my lawn. If I do it twice a week (I don't) May through October, that is maybe 60 hours a year. Residential mowers, if maintained will last a really long time. Maybe decades? I have a Toro Timecutter from 2016. I' changed the belt for the blades last year. I change the oil/filter, plugs, and air cleaner once a year. It's been great and was reasonable to purchase.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

IowaJoe said:


> So I tested the JD a few days ago and a few things caught my attention:
> 
> First, it felt like there was some play in the control arms. I could rock the sticks 3-4" back and forth before it would engage the motor. For me, this made it difficult to control, especially as slow speeds. It felt fine just cruising around but when I tested it when trying to stay tight to a lawn edge I had a hard time keeping it where I needed. Can this be tightened up somehow?
> 
> ...


Hard tellin'' without being able to run the unit myself. Any chance that hour meter has been replaced and the machine has a good bit more than 400 hours on it? It would be unusual for it to have so much wear on the controls with under 400 hours on it. It's also possible that some work was done and everything was just poorly reassembled/adjusted.


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## IowaJoe (Apr 21, 2021)

I think I'm going to pass on the z810a, now I have my eye on a z910a I found for sale. Year newer and only 225 hours or so, single owner.

Something stuck me as odd though, the dealer selling it says it has a Honda engine on it, not a Kawi. Is that odd, should it be a red flag? When google searching it I cant find anything where JD used Honda's for this model.

Dealer says records show there was some kind of warranty repair on the unit years ago but nothing more than regular maintenance since then, no details though. Could they have repowered it with a Honda under warranty?

The mower is a drive away so I cant just go look at it...

TIA.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

I'm not aware of any JD with a Honda on it. I am aware of a company that makes Honda Motor kits to swap into JDs, but it would be a backyard mechanic thing.

Same concept as people who direct swap a 350 into a Jeep with a kit.


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