# 500 sq. ft. side of house re-do



## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

I have decided to redo the side of my house. It was originally seeded by professionals 2 years ago, and never really took off for a number of reasons:
1) I really didn't care about lawn care. Just mow it when I had to
2)Drainage - as you can see from the lack of growth in the dripline 
3)Construction - power company had to tunnel a new cable to the home

It has been overgrown with weeds, and has eroded where the turf didn't take. So I have already applied generic roundup twice, and bought some black dirt to level off. I have seed pre-germinating as I write this (KBG). The drainage issues have been solved (new gutters).





Soil analysis shows high phosphorus, low potassium, alkaline soil (ph 7.5)

My thoughts are to probably pre-germinate for about a week, changing the water daily, mixing with some sand and dry fertilizer (maybe Milorganite?), and hand-spreading this stuff because it is too narrow of an area to broadcast. I will cover with some peat to keep moist and also maybe lower pH a bit?

Local fert guy sold me some 10-10-10 to use, and I heard from other sources that this is what I need to do, but I worry about the already high P in my soil.



Planning on seed down this upcoming weekend...fingers crossed.


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## jurkewycmi (Jun 3, 2018)

Following for results of pre germination! Good luck!


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Thanks. I really haven't done ANY of this stuff before...flying blind, learning a lot, and having fun, man!


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If you have high P, I wouldn't add more by using 10-10-10 or milo. Choose a fert more like a 20-0-10 or buy AMS which is 21-0-0. It will slowly bring down your ph over time. Also, use SOP, 0-0-50 to bring up your K. You will have to search around to get these products as they aren't usually available at your local home improvement store.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Thanks for the tips! I do have a feed/tack shop close, so I'm sure I can find those suggested. Quick question: I'm laying down just a light blanket of dirt (1/4")before seed to help level more and get better contact. I'm assuming that this new dirt won't have much phosphorus. Would the 10-10-10 be useful then?

Also, update on pre-germination - turns out that the forecast calls for scattered thunderstorms this weekend...the exact weekend that I plan on laying it down. I guess one downside to pre-germination is that I can't really wait any longer to seed for fear of losing the whole crop...ugh.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

gopher said:


> Quick question: I'm laying down just a light blanket of dirt (1/4")before seed to help level more and get better contact. I'm assuming that this new dirt won't have much phosphorus.


I have two reactions to the above.

First, from where are you getting the "light blanket of dirt" and how confident are you in it being weed-free? You could very well be bringing in soil that is just chock full of weed seeds, potentially including particularly troublesome ones like _poa annua_ or _poa trivialis_!

Personally, I've always been fortunate with not bringing in lots of nasty weed seeds when bringing in new topsoil, but there's been plenty of others on forums like this one with less than happy experiences with doing so. I would only bring in new soil if filling in holes. Otherwise, I figure I'm better with the devil I know (the weed seeds in my existing soil) rather than the ones the devil I don't know (the potential weed seeds in the "new dirt.")

Second, why do you think this new dirt won't have much phosphorus? Depending on where it came from, it could have less, the same, or more than your existing topsoil. Did the seller of the topsoil provide a soil test?


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

ken-n-nancy, this is the stuff I need! I really didn't know why I was posting this project, or what I was expecting, but the feedback you and suburban jungle life gave is invaluable. These are things I didn't even consider. Not only are you going to save me from potential weed problems, you just saved me TONs of $$ on chiropractic bills if I were to move all that dirt.

Okay, so no topdressing at this point. Going to try P free fert that was recommended. Last question (not really), The existing grass is dead and yellow. Do I till this or rake this up to ensure seed-soil contact? There is a patch that is not on the pictures that has a dead mat of grass mowed as low as I could. I have heard NOT to disturb the soil because of the weed issue...I know this is a stupid question, but I just want to do this right.

As for the germination...



smells like tea. Changing the water every day and rinsing the bag as well. I keep it covered and inside my house. I stole one of my wife's "vegetable bags" that she brings to the grocery store for veggies. Seems to work quite well.


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## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

I have a side strip like this and could never grow anything worthwhile. Even Bewitched faded out due to lack of sun/watering/air circulation. I put a paver walkway DIY build and have no regrets. Some areas are better hardscaped in my opinion.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ I agree with LIgrass

Make a mulch bed edge, place rocks against the foundation and place some walking flagstones. That way you could spray round up on any weed that grows between the rocks and no need to add mulch every year.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Thanks for the thoughts. Actually, artificial turf is my plan B. It has to be soft and cuddly for all of the little bare feet trampling down there to the outdoor shower/hose-off area. I live on a lake with a sandy beach, and you wouldn't believe how much sand gets everywhere in the house. The neighborhood kids (and ours) hate walking through there now. Need a carpet of good grass or turf to wipe those feet.

I'm giving this project a 50/50 success rate due mostly to my knowledge, but also to the environmental factors stated above. The area actually gets a good breeze from the lake, and some moderate sun in the summer months (estimate about 3-5 hrs/day). Irrigation is a lock - with a Rachio controller which I love.

I figure even if this fails, I still have learned quite a bit about this process. Up until I joined this forum, I was convinced that all lawn seeding, renovation, major upkeep needed to happen in the heat of the summer. Turns out Fall is 'go time' for KBG. Who knew?


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Whoa: Pre-germination.

Cool.

Keep us posted on this, as I wasnt even aware this was a thing.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Soaked the stuff for 5 days. The bag started smelling a bit ripe, but I don't think it is mold. I spread it out on a sheet pan to dry a bit. I am trying to get this down BEFORE actual emergence so I don't harm the plant when drying and seeding. This afternoon I will probably mix with some dry sand, milorganite, and maybe corn starch. I figure the corn starch will help dry it more as I'm concerned it is going to be very clumpy when spreading. This stuff will be spread by hand.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

It's done. I mixed my 1lb. seed with 4lb. milorganite and just a smidge of dry sand. Actually was pretty smooth. No clumps. Spread the mixture by hand, raked it in, rolled it, and put down peat. Watered it 3 min, and I'll check often to see if it needs more. I have set up my sprinklers to start at 6AM tomorrow, 3 minutes a zone (2 zones in this photo), every 6 hours. I did compare the soaked seed to the dry, and it definitely plumped up. Nice and juicy! I'm not expecting any faster establishment, I just wanted to control as much of the initial seeding as I could (i.e. soak in a container to avoid washouts, drying out, etc.)


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Hi @gopher, cool project.

This is the first time I've heard of pre-germinating grass seed. So you soaked the seed for 5 days then laid it down - how long after throwing the seed down do you expect it to sprout?

I'm planning to renovate my yard with KBG soon and it would be great if I could reduce the overall germination time. Is that what pregermination aims to do?


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## Ballistic (Mar 19, 2018)

Dont think i have ever seen or heard of pre-germinating grass seed.

I look forward to seeing how well this works.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Thanks guys. I haven't heard of ANY of this stuff before this forum (and google). As for pre-germination, I don't think it is going reduce the germination time, it just changes the venue where the germination will occur. The first 5 days are in a controlled, wet environment to imbibe the seeds (get them plump with water). The rest will occur in the yard. So, technically, I have successfully watered my seeds, and avoided any washouts/trampling/drying the seeds for the first 5 days. I will post updates, but I assume it will still take the full 14-20 days total for KBG germination (only 9-15 days more). I also assume that since the seeds are already "pre-charged" with water, it may be a bit more forgiving if my irrigation timing isn't set up perfectly yet. BTW, I don't think I mentioned the grass type - KBG Bewitched.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

gopher said:


> As for pre-germination, I don't think it is going reduce the germination time, it just changes the venue where the germination will occur. The first 5 days are in a controlled, wet environment to imbibe the seeds (get them plump with water). ...
> 
> I will post updates, but I assume it will still take the full 14-20 days total for KBG germination (only 9-15 days more). ...
> 
> BTW, I don't think I mentioned the grass type - KBG Bewitched.


I've seen threads with others doing pre-germination, although I've never done it myself.

By the way, the seed type is important for this experiment -- Bewitched KBG is quick to germinate compared to most KBG. (It tends to "sprout and pout" for a long time, though... Few report it being ready to mow until Day 30-45.)

Many folks report initial germination of Bewitched as early as Day 5 in ideal conditions.

In my 2015 renovation, I had initial germination of Bewitched at Day 7.










Germination was quite widespread/slowing down by Day 12.

In @Pete1313's renovation last year, he reported initial Bewitched germination on Day 6: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=436&start=180#p16454 which was the same day for initial germination in his prior renovation, too.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Starting to see 1 or 2 little guys every now and then. Temps to get into the mid-high 80's by the weekend. Shouldn't be a deal, though. Not with the constant irrigation.



Also seeing a TON of Japanese beetles on the mud from my neighbor's birch tree.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

So, EXACTLY 6 days from seed down. Can't say that soaking the seeds ahead of time sped up the emergence. It probably helped even out the moisture cycles as I was dialing in my irrigation. I have so many weeds sprouting as well...its going to be a battle. I'm tempted to just go out there and pull as many as I can see, but I don't want to trample the new grass shoots. Time will tell.


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## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

This is called seed priming. It definitely works by cutting down the average germination time for the entire bag (eg- bulk of germination from 5-15 days down to like 4-9 days). I did an experiment like this on the other forum with 12 solo cups getting equal watering and the primed seed cups were fuller a lot faster.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Day 10. Had a thundershower with small hail this weekend, but no big washouts. Still watering every 4 hours, 2 minutes a zone. The top layer gets a bit dry between waterings, but its looking good so far.

When should I consider changing the irrigation to every 6 hours? Maybe bump up the time to 3 minutes/zone then?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In my opinion, don't try to save on water now. Prevent them from getting dry.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Day 10



Day 15



I'm happy so far. Plan to wait 2 more weeks to start mowing. some of the bare spots on the left are from the sprinklers pooling and washing out the seed. Waiting....waiting.....worse than watching paint dry.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Day 26 after a quick mow at 2". Scraggly but hopefully it will fill in.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

This is going to be looking VERY good in about 2 weeks. Nice work.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Thanks @Jconnelly6b . I'm tempted to start spoon feeding some nitrogen once the weather gets out of the 80's (in a week or 2). I think I need to go back and review what @Pete1313 did to his lawn last year. His results are insane!


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## Ecukingbuddy (Jul 22, 2018)

Looking good! I think after this bit of rain we are suppose to get over the next week or so, temps will start to hover around the High 70's/Low 80's for good.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Those are some good results for day 26! :thumbsup: no doubt that the seed priming helped. You can start giving it small doses of nitrogen now if you want. Small weekly feedings of a quick release at .25 lbs/M of nitrogen would work.


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## Rucraz2 (Apr 8, 2018)

I have heard of people putting seed in the Freezer before hand as well. I have not done it myself. Just something I heard of years ago to help speed up germination.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Looks good. Day 26 was the FIRST time I noticed the lake. I can't see past the grass...


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

@probasestealer I didn't notice at all until you mention!


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> @probasestealer I didn't notice at all until you mention!


Haha.


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## gopher (Jun 23, 2018)

Day 26



Day 35



Cutting at 1" and applying urea .5lb/K every week. Might be too much but I have seen some sports turf stadiums really hammer the N even more than this to get things filled in. Long way to go yet.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ this looks like a successful Reno.


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