# Clover going wild - now with photos



## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi All

This year dutch / white clover is going completely wild in my lawn, and I'm curious what's happening, and how do I get the grass to compete.

I've been giving nitrogen over the last year so it's not quite that simple

To be clear: we're not talking bits and patches of clover mixed in with the grass - no this looks like clover on steroids consuming everything. Low-maintenance lawns in my neighborhood have normal patches of clover here and there, but what I have happening is something completely different.

I don't want to use herbicides and I'm happy with a "mixed greens" look, but I just don't want to end up with very little grass in the mix and that seems to be the direction its headed.

My questions are: What do you think is happening and what can I do to get the grass to complete? (no herbicides) Everything I read says give it nitrogen, but I give nitrogen and despite that I have way more clover than lawns that don't give nitrogen.

The only thing I can think of is as follows. Would phosphorus drive clover? Because In early spring (late March) I fertilized with a mix of more phosphorus than N because my soil test indicated P was extremely low (soil test below, again all within legal limits). Would that P have driven the clover at the expense of grass? 
* Prior to that spring app of P, my last N apps were back in September and October of last year though it was organic so should have lasted a little while (ringer safer brand)
* Then there was the P app in late March (there was some N in the mix too, but not as much as P)
* Then I followed up in late April with a medium dose of organic N (ringer safer brand again)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Clover started last year. Did you maintained your lawn irrigated last year above your neighbors?

I spotted some clover in my yard and I normally don't have it. I mixed 1/2gallon tank of triclopyr with nis and AS.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

g-man said:


> Clover started last year. Did you maintained your lawn irrigated last year above your neighbors?
> 
> I spotted some clover in my yard and I normally don't have it. I mixed 1/2gallon tank of triclopyr with nis and AS.


Yes I always had some clover last year and prior years, and I'm cool with that, the issue is that it's going completely crazy this year like it's on steroids and taking over

No I don't irrigate much. Just a bit if I need to water in an app or new seeding


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Can you take some pictures?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I've observed similar situations in the past. Always puzzles me what's going on but I've come to conclude that sometimes it's just an indication that soil fertility is finally right and whatever weeds are there start competing super vigorously. Sometimes grasses just lose that competition. Law of the turf jungle. If you don't want to use any herbicides, it will be very tough to get rid of. Aggressive dethatching (tear the crap out of it) and overseeding (with fert per recent soil test - i.e. enough but not too much P) every fall may help.

Where do you get your soil tested? Format looks very familiar to me. U Del and U MD must use the same software.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Clover loves a pH of 6.5 to 7.0 and thrives where there is plenty of P & K. It also pulls nitrogen out of the air and fixes it in the root system where your grass can use it and really won't benefit from nitrogen applications. From the test you K was already good and now you've thrown the P to it as well making the conditions ideal for clover. As others have said, herbicides are about the only way to get rid of it. Triclopyr works great but may take 2 treatments. You can also expect it to pop back up from the seeds that have been dropped.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Given you seem to have hit the sweet spot from a nutrient perspective you probably only have two options:


Weaken the clover using cultural practices - I.e pull it out, mow at a level that your grass will thrive at but the clover will stuggle
strengthen the grass selectively, perhaps by spraying everything except the clover with RGS/Humic Acid so that it has a better chance of out competing the clover. 

Clover makes it's own N so I doubt adding N will cause significant extra growth, so it might just be simpler to #EnjoyTheMow and then work on strengthening the turfgrass in the fall and take advantage of the clover being in it's off season.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I've seen very thick sections of grass get taken over by clover in a matter of weeks. I think what happens is the clover shades the grass underneath and the grass is unable to recover. It spreads fast too. A dose of broadleaf herbicide would thin it out where the grass would get a shot at competing, but not eliminate it. But if you're ideologically opposed to herbicide, then hand pulling is an option for sure.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I don't mind a little Dutch white clover, a lot I write consider spot spraying


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Where do you get your soil tested? Format looks very familiar to me. U Del and U MD must use the same software.


UMD doesn't do soil testing for some reason even though they have an ag dept and do ntep trials. They say to use UD or some other place and then use UMD recommendations for fert. :roll:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If you don't want to use herbicides, then you will definitely have an uphill battle! You can try to mow tall so the clover doesn't shade the grass as much. Mow at 4-5". Also, since clover makes it's own nitrogen, give the grass plenty of nitrogen on a routine schedule so the grass has as much as it needs to thrive and compete with the clover. Of course, all the plants including weeds will enjoy the fertilizer. But, combining good nutrition along with with a cut closer to 5" should help the grass some. In the fall, overseed and fertilize to get the grass as thick as you can.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Thanks all for your comments.

Below are some belated photos. I also added them to the first post


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Sam, that's a lot. I don't see any other way than using triclopyr. I would add Ammonium sulfate to speed up the kill. I understand that you don't want to use chemicals, but I just don't see any other way.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

g-man said:


> Sam, that's a lot. I don't see any other way than using triclopyr. I would add Ammonium sulfate to speed up the kill. I understand that you don't want to use chemicals, but I just don't see any other way.


+1


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

g-man said:


> Sam, that's a lot. I don't see any other way than using triclopyr. I would add Ammonium sulfate to speed up the kill. I understand that you don't want to use chemicals, but I just don't see any other way.


+2


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## Austin (Apr 30, 2018)

Wow, that is a lot of clover! I would spray it as well.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

There is one option without chemicals. Sod cutter and get new sod or seeds.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Ok thanks guys. I said it was crazy didn't I? :lol:

What if this fall at over seeding I was really agressive eg with scalping it down metal raking, etc. any chance the grass would make headway?

On a similar note, is it just as active in the fall or does grass get a bit of advantage then?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

sam said:


> Ok thanks guys. I said it was crazy didn't I? :lol:
> 
> What if this fall at over seeding I was really agressive eg with scalping it down metal raking, etc. any chance the grass would make headway?
> 
> On a similar note, is it just as active in the fall or does grass get a bit of advantage then?


I've never dealt with an infestation that extensive but for more "usual" sized patches, tearing the crap out of them (I've used a tractor mounted detatch rake with weights on it) and seeding in Fall with heavy fertilization does knock it back significantly. It could take years to get rid of most of it and I don't think you'll ever get rid of all of it. If you're completely against chemicals, you don't have much to lose by trying.

Triclopyr will get rid of it in a couple / few weeks


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Have you considered a dutch white clover monostand? If you stay on top of morning it could work...
But yeah, no chemicals (which I understand) you're in trouble. How about tenacity? It's at least a reduced risk herbicide


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@sam any updates on this battle?


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> @sam any updates on this battle?


Hey thanks for checking back in.

Ok here's an update:
Clover choked out the grass completely in big swaths of the front lawn. And again, I'm a guy who doesn't mind a mix of greens, but this was crazy.

In hindsight, looking back through journal and photos, I am convinced it was a result of putting down P in the early spring with much lesser N. I guess I tried to combine guidance from different sources about P and springtime N but clearly the combination turned the existing clover into super clover!

Now:
Over Labor Day WE I went to town with a detaching rake (heavily thinned the clover, in fact some clover patches ended up bare dirt, ie Reno by raking) and then heavy seeded good quality TTTF, and applied Scott's starter with mesotrione. That turned the existing clover white (which I wasn't expecting since I they say the granular doesn't act as post-emergent.) All this beating slowed down the clover enough that the TTTF was able to germinate well and got to mowing height before i saw any movement from clover.

At three weeks after seeding the new TTTF is looking good although still immature. I still have clover but hopefully less, which would be fine with me. The clover is starting to grow now.

Question: 
I'm at 3 weeks after putting seed and Scott's starter fert incl mesotrione

Should I use ringer from now on or another dose of starter fert including mesotrione?

What I really want is the granular mesotrione without the P but that doesn't exist.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

sam said:


> Should I use ringer from now on or another dose of starter fert including mesotrione?
> 
> What I really want is the granular mesotrione without the P but that doesn't exist.


It is starting to get a little cool for organics to break down at the rate you want. I'd go one more round of starter myself and go back to organics in late spring. Milorganite contains P if you are still low in next year's test.

You do realize that mesotrione is the active ingredient in Tenacity, correct? I would rather spot spray an herbicide only where needed rather than blanket my entire lawn with a granular application of the same ingredient. I know feelings differ on herbicide usage, but you seem to have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other, which is fine and your decision to make. I'm just trying to understand the reason for the change.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Spot spray is not an option - I would have to spray the whole yard or nothing.

So I don't see starter fert with mesotrione as the other end of the spectrum - considering the actual range of options.

Other than just mechanical action (but If I do only that, then weeds just run right across the yard again) it seemed the next option was to combine mechanical steps with a relatively safe / low toxicity herbicide which is just pre-emergent. In this form it doesn't even kill existing plants (granular).

Sam


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

With 5k, hand pull the clover. It might come back, but then you could use triclopyr.

I agree with miggity. Tenacity does have the risk of the weeds building resistance, so I only use it when I have to and try to spot.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

g-man said:


> With 5k, hand pull the clover. It might come back, but then you could use triclopyr.
> 
> I agree with miggity. Tenacity does have the risk of the weeds building resistance, so I only use it when I have to and try to spot.


Ok thanks for the feedback. I was just thinking about the toxicity and safety but if resistance is a risk then I'll try to avoid.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

For toxicity and safety, consider using herbicides one section at a time and roping the area off. I tried to use only organics, but had issues controlling things. I now try to use the most effective tool at the appropriate rate in as small of an area as needed to correct the issue.


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