# What are these weird growths I see laying along the surface with the grass growth?



## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Do the Tall Fescue sprouts just grow along above-ground to spread its growth? Sometimes they even end up on the surface of the grass or the mower mows them. I've been told by TruGreen prior to my seeing these that with this type grass, I should raise my mower to the highest it goes, which is 3". I've always liked mowing at 2" or 2-1/2" for that clean shaven look. I've lived here 27 years since the house was new and I've only been mowing my own yard now for about 2 years. I bet our lawn guy mowed higher. 
I've lived in this home since it was built new and we had it sodded with Tall Fescue. I've always had a service do my lawn work but I've taken it over since I've retired. I don't really know what I'm doing. Maybe I've been cutting it too low? I bet I've been cutting it lower than my service had been since I always looked out there after he'd been here and had thought that he could have cut it a little shorter since the yard is so flat. But maybe he knew not to cut Tall Fescue too low? TruGreen kept telling me to raise my mower and the websites all say to cut as high as your mover goes which is typically 3" even though Tall Fescue would prefer 3-1/2"- 4". The sites say that keeps the lawn healthy & thick and helps it fight weeds. Have I hurt something in my lawn and caused these sprouts to grow or are they always there on Tall Fescue lawns and I'm just noticing them since I'm mowing now and/or mowing this short?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

This sure looks like Bermuda runners (stolons). It's a warm season grass, and if left untreated will take over your lawn. You have a couple options. All of which you need to be cautious if temps will be over 85-90F over the next 2-3 days after treating.

1. Ornamec - spot spray these areas with ornamec at the label rate to treat for bermuda infestations in TTTF. Repeat after 2-3 weeks.

2. Pylex - spot spray these areas with pylex at the label rate to treat for bermuda infestations in TTTF. Pylex is very expensive, but it the most effective herbicide.

Optional - blanket spray the entire lawn with Tenacity to highlight the bermuda. It will bleach it, and you will be able to see how much you have in your lawn. Do this before spraying with Ornamec or Pylex. I would recommend to do this first.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

WOW thanks. I wonder if my neighbors on both sides have Bermuda grass and that's been invading my Tall Fescue (which I've learned here is called TTTF). I do see these things primarily near both neighbor's yards in only my front yard and there's none in my backyard since there couldn't be because of walls. Nor is there any in the center of my front yard even though it is pretty small. 
I just re-read your reply and I saw the mention of temps. We are in southern California. Today was in the mid 90°s. So, what did you mean when you said "All of which you need to be cautious if temps will be over 85-90F over the next 2-3 days after treating"? The temps will definitely be that high. Do you think I should just call TruGreen and pay them to do it? I don't have anything but a hand-held sprayer and hand-held spreader.
Here's a photo of the front yard. 
Why do I only see these ugly sprouts in my yard? I don't see them in my neighbor's yards, even though they have their lawns mowed at least as low as I do.


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## Bean4Me (May 13, 2020)

You could easily spray tenacity on 3k lawn with a pump sprayer. Don't need anything fancy. If you're retired and DIYing more then you might as well retire trugreen too.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Dont hire Trugreen to do it, they will do anything you tell them too even spraying these herbicides at high temps which will stunt and or damage your TTTF.

If there isnt a lot you may be able to pull them up and deal with spraying Tenacity in the fall when things cool down to see how big of a problem you really have. Still with high mowing to keep it green in that heat, and i believe bermuda prefers to be cut low. Obviously you may not get them all, but obviously via this post means you can spot them and start pulling.

It should be pretty easy to spot, this bermuda grass should be spreading across the top of your dirt via stolons like this
http://www.garden-counselor-lawn-care.com/images/xbermuda-grass-pictures-1.jpg.pagespeed.ic.GEgeQkzUml.jpg

Where your TTTF should be rooted firmly/directly into the soil the bermuda blades will be coming off the stolon thats slithering its way across your yard, so if its not bad you may be able to just start pulling the stolon up gently and derooting it and follow it along its path until you likely reach your neighbors property. Think of it like pulling up strawberries, just keep following the root down the line.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I'm not sure how well the highlighting with Tenacity is going to work, fescue turns white with Tenacity pretty easily as well.



vankjeff said:


> WOW thanks. I wonder if my neighbors on both sides have Bermuda grass and that's been invading my Tall Fescue (which I've learned here is called TTTF).


TTTF just stands for Turf Type Tall Fescue, as a way to differentiate from non-turf or pasture type Tall Fescue. It's typically understood that Tall Fescue in this context refers to the turf type, though you do see KY31 every now and then. Turf Type is just an improved variety of the non-turf Tall Fescue, finer blades, better color, but they're not separate species like Poa Annua and Poa Pratensis for example.


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## ScottW (Sep 16, 2019)

My take... with a relatively small yard like 3K and being retired, you should have the time to walk the yard and carefully examine for bermuda and mark/treat just those areas. Blanketing the whole yard with Tenacity will whiten up the whole yard including the TTTF, and yes it will recover within a couple of weeks, but it's a stress on the lawn in the middle of summer that you could maybe avoid.

The active ingredient in $Pylex$ is topramezone, which is conveniently now available in Roundup Crabgrass Destroyer (not to be confused with regular old Roundup which is glyphosate). A 1-gal jug of the Crabgrass Destroyer is ~$27 at HD so it's a way to get the same AI without having to win the lottery to afford the buy-in for Pylex.

There's also Bayer Bermudagrass Control which is fenoxaprop, same AI as in Acclaim. Some Lowes stores carry it, but not all. I'd have to drive 25 miles to get this semi-locally, or mail order it.

Hand-pulling can work too, and is oddly satisfying in its own right. :twisted: Some might break off and leave parts of rhizomes in the soil so even this is not 100% effective, but you can get a lot of it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

My Amazon order got here up today with a 32 oz hose-end sprayer of Bio Advanced Bermuda Grass Killer and 8 oz of Non-ionic Surfactant that I was told here or had read somewhere to also use to get rid of this Bermuda invasion of my Tall Fescue. I can't remember where I read to use that. I was hoping that someone here could tell me how much of that Surfactant that I should add into this Bermuda Grass Killer sprayer. This Bermuda Grass Killer says it treats 5000 ft² so how many ounces of the 8 ounces in that Surfactant should I add to that sprayer? Then I'll spray it tomorrow unless you tell me not to since the highs will be in the mid 70°s, not the 80°s & 90°s like it has been here in southern California. I bet I only have 400 square of yard that has any problem with Bermuda grass growing in it, maybe 600 ft² but I doubt it. I really should have read this more carefully earlier I saw someone's note that I should just go out and pull out the stalons. I could've been doing that all along and I would've enjoyed it because I'm mad at those things. 😉
I bet this Bermuda has been invading for a long time and I'm only seeing it now since I just retired and I took over mowing my own lawn.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

@ScottW Thanks.

To summarize, these are good to use in cool season grasses to fight bermuda:

RoundUp Crabgrass Destroyer 
BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Contol
Ornamec

Is that about it?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

You do not need to add that surfactant into the "ready to spray" bottle. Usually those already have surfactant in them.

Adding surfactant is only necessary if you are buying the concentrate and mixing yourself into a pump sprayer.

If you add too much surfactant (add to a bottle that already has it included) you can run the risk of burning the lawn.

*if your daytime highs are below 85 for the next 5 days, I would say you are safe to spray that bottle. Especially if you are expecting rain to keep the heat stress down. For the applicaiton amount, follow what it says on the bottle. It should recommend you to walk at a slow pace and sweep the spray back and forth, covering the leaves with spray, but not soaking them. You don't want to spray so much that it is dripping off the leaves, at that point you have applied it too heavy,

Good luck!


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Jconnelly6b said:


> You do not need to add that surfactant into the "ready to spray" bottle. Usually those already have surfactant in them.
> Adding surfactant is only necessary if you are buying the concentrate and mixing yourself into a pump sprayer.
> If you add too much surfactant (add to a bottle that already has it included) you can run the risk of burning the lawn.
> * If your daytime highs are below 85 for the next 5 days, I would say you are safe to spray that bottle. Especially if you are expecting rain to keep the heat stress down. For the application amount, follow what it says on the bottle. It should recommend you to walk at a slow pace and sweep the spray back and forth, covering the leaves with spray, but not soaking them. You don't want to spray so much that it is dripping off the leaves, at that point you have applied it too heavy,
> Good luck!


COOL, THANKS. I'm returning that Surfactant at no shipping charge at The UPS Store & getting back the full $14 cost.
I was thinking that I should just spray a little more area than I think has been infested with Bermuda, or even the whole, little yard this first time, so that 3-4 weeks later I can go spray again in & around any areas where I see dead Bermuda. Sound good? What if temps are too warm then which I bet they will be? I'm in Orange, CA near LA.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

If you think that it getting warmer than 80 everyday later this week plus that it will be above 80 in a few weeks when I want to do my second spraying should keep me from doing it now, I guess I could or should hold off on doing it until the fall when it's cooler. I'd like your advice.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Please read my last reply just before this one to help you understand this one.
I didn't spray the yard today to kill that Bermuda grass since I hadn't heard back even though we had a cooler day, so I hope that was the right thing to do. Maybe I'll get out there with my hard steel rake and yank up some of those stolones if I get motivated enough. Otherwise if you tell me that it would be OK, I'll spray it sometime soon. I'd like to know if it's really dangerous to do if it's going to be in 80° or so. I bet you've told me but I forget. I shouldn't be so lazy. I should go look. Bad Jeff.
So, what's next? &#129300;


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Can I do anything to stop the Bermuda grass now?" Rake? Spray? It's always warm here in Anaheim, CA. A cool day between March and October is maybe highs in the mid-70°s with most in the 90°s. 
This stuff is ugly and I guess if all I can do for now is use a strong rake to pull it up out of the Tall Fescue and then pull those things out by hand, then that's what I gotta do.
I'd rather spray it and kill it now but you've mentioned something here that our temps might hurt my TFF grass?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Since today was one of the cooler days of the next few months, with the temps only 80°, when I went out to mow the lawn, I thought I'd first pull out some of those my neighbor's ugly Bermuda grass stolons that have invaded my Tall Fescue lawn. I started with a hard, gardening rake which I thought could easily be dragged thru and pull them out onto the surface and I thought I could then just pull them out. But I worked up such a sweat & I had to quit. Some were really long & were buried deep in all the other grass. They've taken over lots of the areas. So I got some of the worst ones out but I gave up.
I did just return the BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass killer at The UPS Store to Amazon for a $31 credit before their deadline. I can always Buy Again in the fall if I decide to use it after it cools down enough to use it. That's if I don't decide to just give up on DIY & just have my whole little front yard lawn ripped out and new sod laid. Maybe I'll put Bermuda grass in this time so I'm not mad at both of my neighbors since theirs is invading my Tall Fescue again.
I guess that might be a problem since my super tiny backyard (200 sq ft?) would still need 3" tall mowing but Bermuda wants way shorter.
Come to think of it, ever since I started mowing my own lawn again after I retired last year, I've mowed that Tall Fescue all over my yard at 2-1/2" or even 2" since my lawn is flat enough for that, so maybe it's OK to mow Tall Fescue at 2"?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Old Hickory said:


> @ScottW Thanks.
> 
> To summarize, these are good to use in cool season grasses to fight bermuda:
> 
> ...


I'm back after being gone a long time and the neighbor's Bermuda grass keeps invading my little front yard. The main place that it's growing isn't at all connected to their lawn. It's just next to their sidewalk beside their sidewalk and their garage is next to that. Maybe their lawncare guys drop stuff when they empty the mower bag & they blow it into my yard to clean up?
Anyhow, I've tried spraying that BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Killer lots of times when the sprinklers haven't gone off that day & won't the next day. We don't usually have days where the high isn't at least 70° so maybe that's my problem? I also haven't tried your suggested
1. RoundUp Crabgrass Destroyer 
so might that be the trick?


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

I am fighting lots of bermuda. Using the Fusilade II, which is same AI as Ornamec. One treatment, and its knocked back. Granted i have maybe 500-800 sq ft of it, and its a couple to several season battle, but i feel progress being made. A couple big overseeds next two seasons and it should be gone.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> I am fighting lots of bermuda. Using the Fusilade II, which is same AI as Ornamec. One treatment, and its knocked back. Granted i have maybe 500-800 sq ft of it, and its a couple to several season battle, but i feel progress being made. A couple big overseeds next two seasons and it should be gone.


Hi. When you say "Using the Fusilade II, which is same AI as Ornamec", what do you mean? Is Fusilade II another product that hasn't been mentioned here? I don't know why "Al" is in that sentence. What is Al?
What about the Roundup Crabgrass Killer mentioned by someone else that I asked about in my latest posting? I somehow missed that many months ago. I trust & use regular Roundup.
I have less than 500-800 sq ft of lawn that's infested with Bermudagrass.


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

AI stands for Active Ingredient. 
Fusilade II has a higher percentage of the active ingredient in it's mixture, therefore, there is a higher risk of burning your desirable grass if you don't get your mixture calculations perfect AND perfect calibration of your sprayer. Ornamec, a product with a smaller percentage of active ingredient, gives you a little bit more forgiveness but also may be less effective. It's a give and take.

If you notice on the BioAdvanced product, the active ingredient percentage is only 0.41% compared to 24% in Fusilade II. I've used the BioAdvanced product once and it seemed to stress the bermuda pretty hard. Additionally, it's easy to use if you don't have a lot of experience with spraying and mixing chemicals.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

GatorGuy, I think I'd better not mess with that Fusilade II. I'm just a homeowner and with those AI figures, that stuff is way too powerful. That plus the BioAdvanced just mixes itself to the right ratio as the hose gives it water. I'm sure glad you told me this since I'd already picked it out on Amazon. 
What about either Primesource Quinclorac or Roundup for Lawns Crabgrass Destroyer1? Would you advise either? The Roundup can't be shipped to me in California but I could still get it.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> that stuff is way too powerful.


Yes, it was pretty strong stuff, really stinky, like you could taste it in the air. Not for inexperienced users. Wear PPE no matter what chemical you use. Only 4 ml to a gallon with surfactant. I'm a professional chemist, handling things that might kill me is an everyday job risk. I am also helping treat my neighbor's lawn that is infested with bermuda, so i will get good value out of it. Good luck. This chemical is making a difference in the yard for sure. I just ripped it up with a dethatcher and will overseed. One more treatment this year before dormancy.


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

vankjeff said:


> GatorGuy, I think I'd better not mess with that Fusilade II. I'm just a homeowner and with those AI figures, that stuff is way too powerful. That plus the BioAdvanced just mixes itself to the right ratio as the hose gives it water. I'm sure glad you told me this since I'd already picked it out on Amazon.
> What about either Primesource Quinclorac or Roundup for Lawns Crabgrass Destroyer1? Would you advise either? The Roundup can't be shipped to me in California but I could still get it.


I don't think the quinclorac is going to help with your issue. It's a good product to kill clover type weeds, as well as crabgrass but I don't believe it will help that much against the bermuda in your original post.

The round up has the same active ingredient as a product called "Pylex." It will help but it's not going to kill the bermuda, only piss it off for a little while. Also the spray tip looks like it would only be good for spot spraying but not blanketing an entire yard, so keep that in mind. Bermuda is a beast and almost nothing will completely kill it. The trick to getting rid of it is to stunt it's growth as much as possible during spring and summer and then either overseed with more TTTF in the fall so that your desirable grass will fill in as much as possible


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

There is a thread somewhere here on TLF.com that provides "a torch" for bermuda while (relatively) safe on TTTF … involves Pylex (sit down prior to pricing!), Triclopyr and MSO, 3x, 3 weeks apart.

I can attest it IS EFFECTIVE as I cannot see bermuda where I used the "torch" last year and this … (takes at least 3 years and quite frankly I'm not sure the bermuda won't sometimes (more than not?) come back …

CRITICAL THING TO NOTE IS THAT *THE PYLEX IS USED IN QTY's MEASURED IN "ml"* *NOT "OUNCES"*!!!!!!


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Here is the thread, CREDITS to @DocV :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Bermuda grass control in TTTF, by DocV

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427&p=306461&hilit=Non+ionic#p306461

.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Just circling back to confess, for the first time since I've used the Pylex/Tric/MSO Bermuda-in-TTTF "torch," today there is undeniable stress on the TTTF precisely (and only) where I sprayed the "Bermuda torch" cocktail, 1 week ago, on 8/26/2022 …

I'm attributing this to the fact that, instead of mixing up 2 gal.s (let alone, 4 gal.s) of the recipe I tried to cut it into half and I very likely went a bit heavy on either (or both) the Pylex +/or the Triclopyr …

(Trying two measure HALF a ml is fun! Not. :roll: )

Clear to see the TTTF is going to bounce back but, the area I'm treating is so tiny, I think next year I'll simply mix up either a 2- or 4-gallon batch and simply "spot" app it …


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

440mag said:


> (Trying two measure HALF a ml is fun! Not. :roll: )


You can get 1 mL syringes or bigger online pretty cheaply, or even at a pharmacy. I've got access to all sorts of sizes when I need them. 1 mL thru 20mL when making dilutions. This is the rare dilution, but if I did this for a living, i would have my own stock, and probably a decent balance.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

After reading all of these plus that info at https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21427&p=306461&hilit=Non+ionic#p306461 that 440mag posted, I can easily see that I'm in way over my head. I'm just a homeowner with a push mower and a new battery powered weedeater, blower & hedge trimmer. I'm not a chemist or lawncare expert. I'm not sure what I should do since I don't think I could afford to have somebody solve this for me over time. 
Maybe I'll just ignore it and mow my yard once a week.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> Maybe I'll just ignore it and mow my yard once a week.


I did the same thing. It took me 3 years to decide to do something about it. I didn't rush into it. Though i am now thinking on getting my license next year or two for an applicator of pesticides/herbicides for my state. It requires studying however. Ugh. I could do this on the side as a hobby basically, because i want to see other lawns improve, not for the money. Though I do have a business name picked out. I consult my friends lawns for free. It would also help me improve my own lawn.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> vankjeff said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe I'll just ignore it and mow my yard once a week.
> ...


DON'T GET IN BUSINESS JUST AS A HOBBY! Business is for making money. 😉
I don't know if you've read my signature, but my first moneymaker in life was a lawncare business that I started in Indianapolis in my junior year of high school. Then I added snow plowing driveways. I had a list of about 100 verbal contract customers that I plowed whenever it stopped snowing with 2" or more of snow. 
Then a big company called Chemlawn (now called Trugreen) that had only been spraying liquid nitrogen on yards, started a trial total landscape maintenance division in Indianapolis (they were Atlanta based) & after 2 years, decided that wasn't for them. I BOUGHT THE WHOLE THING including a big list of customers that included 4 huge apartment complexes & 4 1-ton utility bed trucks, trailers, big mowers, the works. 
I incorporated it & named it Lawnicure Inc (a play on Manicure). 
Made me gobs of $. You can too! 👍


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> …
> DON'T GET IN BUSINESS JUST AS A HOBBY! Business is for making money. 😉
> I don't know if you've read my signature, but my first moneymaker in life was a lawncare business that I started in Indianapolis in my junior year of high school. Then I added snow plowing driveways. I had a list of about 100 verbal contract customers that I plowed whenever it stopped snowing with 2" or more of snow.
> Then a big company called Chemlawn (now called Trugreen) that had only been spraying liquid nitrogen on yards, started a trial total landscape maintenance division in Indianapolis (they were Atlanta based) & after 2 years, decided that wasn't for them. I BOUGHT THE WHOLE THING including a big list of customers that included 4 huge apartment complexes & 4 1-ton utility bed trucks, trailers, big mowers, the works.
> ...


God. Bless. America. (quickly, PLEASE!)

I NEVER tire of reading success stories … few can know (but all should appreciate) the blood sweat and tears that go into such entrepreneur-ship!

God. Bless. America. (quickly, PLEASE!)


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

macattack said:


> You can get 1 mL syringes or bigger online pretty cheaply, or even at a pharmacy. I've got access to all sorts of sizes when I need them. 1 mL thru 20mL when making dilutions. This is the rare dilution, but if I did this for a living, i would have my own stock, and probably a decent balance.


Thanks and yes, I actually have a zip lock bag full of those tiny syringes, including the one that came with the Pylex. Still, not as "precise" as some lab equipment I have used before but, to which I no longer have access.

In the end, the smoked Bermuda doesn't know the difference so, it's all good! :thumbup: :lol:


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

vankjeff said:


> …. I'm just a homeowner with a push mower and a new battery powered weedeater, blower & hedge trimmer. I'm not a chemist or lawncare expert. I'm not sure what I should do …
> Maybe I'll just ignore it and mow my yard once a week. …


My friend, there is nothing wrong with ^that^ AND!

- - one of the beautiful things about "The TLF Lawn Care Guide" is that it starts off with Level One simply being, *"I just want something green"*: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595

Maybe the thing to do is adopt the martial arts philosophy regarding "_the willow whose power is derived from branches that flex with, vs struggling against, the current of the stream_" and become an expert at cultivating Bermuda grass.

Who knows? Your lawn may wind up the talk of passerby with less than 1/4 of the work and expense of trying to maintain TTTF with Bermuda bordering it on all sides …


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

My two cents would be to use the bio advanced product now. The label says you can seed TTTF directly after applying the product. This will at least give you some kill at the end of the year here and set the Bermuda back during its spring green up. The overseed should take some growing room away from the Bermuda also.

This idea would give you all winter to research and learn about spraying chemicals. It's really easy to understand when you have a few months to absorb the information. Even if you stay away from mixing and spraying chemicals you could still just use the bio advanced product next year and have good results.

I would just hate to see you lose this fall weather as a chance to gain some ground as the Bermuda begins to go dormant. The bioadvanced has such a small amount of active ingredient in it that it almost prevents you from harming your existing turf


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

gatorguy146 said:


> My two cents would be to use the bio advanced product now. The label says you can seed TTTF directly after applying the product. This will at least give you some kill at the end of the year here and set the Bermuda back during its spring green up. The overseed should take some growing room away from the Bermuda also.
> 
> This idea would give you all winter to research and learn about spraying chemicals. It's really easy to understand when you have a few months to absorb the information. Even if you stay away from mixing and spraying chemicals you could still just use the bio advanced product next year and have good results.
> 
> I would just hate to see you lose this fall weather as a chance to gain some ground as the Bermuda begins to go dormant. The bioadvanced has such a small amount of active ingredient in it that it almost prevents you from harming your existing turf


Thanks but I'm not convinced that we'll ever be having any "fall weather" again in my lifetime here in southern California. We live in the city of Orange, just 15 miles off the ocean but today's climate change crisis has it reaching record highs above 100° and drought all around us. 
So, when would I spray BioAdvanced? When will Bermuda go dormant? Not only is this science confusing but it seems like it might be changing.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I'm thinking that it might not be long until homeowners in southern California and other areas aren't allowed to have turf lawns that need sprinklers. A few people around us have already put in fake carpet grass. But what if laws are passed prohibiting sprinkling? 
Then fake grass and desert landscaping will be the only way to go in communities with an HOA that bans dirt yards. 
My wife has been thinking of having our entire little lawn's grass replaced with something (not grass carpet) and maybe the tiny backyard made into a golf putting green. I don't golf but we're going to sell & downsize soon.


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## gatorguy146 (5 mo ago)

Ah sorry, my fault, I never read that you were in California. Yeah no telling what they're going to outlaw you from doing out there. If you're going to move and downsize then all the more reason to test and try new things. If you mess it up too bad you could just plant ryegrass before you try and sell it.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

With the heat and drought that we've got going on here in Orange, California, I haven't been able to get a single seed of Tall Fescue to make a blade of grass and I've tried everything I could think of regarding watering and soil prep including adding topsoil. 
I think I should just give up. When we finally decide that we'll put it on the market in 6-12 months, we'll probably just hire someone to re-landscape the entire little yard, front and back.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

First of all, best of success on your listing and health and happiness in your move!

Secondly, I wonder how your lawn came to be fescue, in such a "fescue UNfriendly" climate?

To add a photo use the little blue "Add Image to Post" icon beneath the lower left corner of the subject box, once you're in "Full Editor & Preview" mode …


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks. I knew I'd even added photos before but I was only looking at all the buttons across the top. Heck, there's even that ADD IMAGE TO POST on this Quick Reply box and I've used it before. 
As far as our Tall Fescue lawn, we chose to have the landscaper use that after we bought the house as this big tract of homes was being built in 1993. We're from Indianapolis and we like tall grass, not the short Bermudagrass that everyone else has in the 'hood (most of the 286 homes). We never knew & were never told that our neighbor's grass would try to take over. It did take a really long time to do so.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Dumb question but could I rent a rototiller & rip the heck out of the bermudagrass and its tallons and then rake it all up as good as possible and spread TTF seed? If so, what time of year would be best here in southern California to do this?
I don't know how I'd get it home in our Honda Civic. &#129300;


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

I guess nobody wanted to tell me how stupid I'd be to spread the Bermudagrass around by rototilling it. Since the temp highs are supposed to finally drop into the low 70s in a week or so, would that be a good time to another round of the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass spray? If yes, spray in the morning or evening? Then do what next & when?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Note that there's no seeds on the Bermudagrass now in mid-September. I put the soda can there just to show the height of the grass. It's growing very fast. That's only about 10 day's growth. Days have been 70°-100+°. Next week's highs might only be in mid-70°s so maybe that would be a good time to spray some BioAdvanced Bermudagrass stuff?
I know I should mow more often but since there's been no seeding & it's been so hot, I've just let it grow a little more than normal. 😉
Because of the drought, our city is only allowing us to run our sprinklers 10 minutes per section on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday but that's plenty to get 1/2" of water everywhere. 
Maybe I've goofed by letting it get this tall even when it's not seeding but I think I'd been told that my having mowed too short last year had made things worse. I started mowing at 2" last year after having always mowed at 2-1/2" or even 3". 
I need a little more help. I apologize that this has dragged on so long. I'm really not a troll. 😊


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

That tall thin limegreen grass doesn't look like bermuda, appears to be nut grass/sedge.

Domyown.com has a Q&A section that may answer some of your questions for the Bioadvanced spray. What percentage of your lawn is intertwined with Bermuda?


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

Is that a Mountain Dew Zero Sugar Baja Blast? Hit that yellow nutsedge with some sedgehammer or Ortho product. Can you yank some bermuda stolons out of the yard to identify location still? It has started to go dormant here. 
Here it was next to the curb, before i "killed" it with glyphosate in a renovation.


It has been a little over a month since I sprayed. I have overseeded the area, but don't expect much as i will spray again soon before dormancy. Massive damage to the bermuda. I did a dethatch which also knocked it back.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

moedank said:


> That tall thin limegreen grass doesn't look like bermuda, appears to be nut grass/sedge.
> 
> Domyown.com has a Q&A section that may answer some of your questions for the Bioadvanced spray. What percentage of your lawn is intertwined with Bermuda?


MoeDank, you got my attention when you said that the tall grass in my photo "doesn't look like Bermuda, it appears to be nut grass/sedge." 
I say this because that area is intertwined with lots of Bermuda stolons AND it's right beside my neighbor's Bermuda grass lawn. 
Bermuda grass has taken over about 25% of my little front yard but I do see stolons working to spread it all over the rest of the yard. 
My tiny backyard has no Bermuda in it but it's totally disconnected from anyone else's yards with short block walls with wrought iron fence on top. 
I've only learned the name of grass types & the word stolon from you guys here. 
Does Bermuda grass only spread using stolons or does it also get seeds on top during certain times of the year if you let it grow for long enough without mowing? 
That really tall grass would get seeds a few months ago when it was really tall but this time it didn't. 
I mowed yesterday which you can see in the 2nd photo that was taken in the middle of the area of the 1st shot.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> Is that a Mountain Dew Zero Sugar Baja Blast? Hit that yellow nutsedge with some sedgehammer or Ortho product. Can you yank some bermuda stolons out of the yard to identify location still? It has started to go dormant here.
> Here it was next to the curb, before i "killed" it with glyphosate in a renovation.
> 
> 
> It has been a little over a month since I sprayed. I have overseeded the area, but don't expect much as i will spray again soon before dormancy. Massive damage to the bermuda. I did a dethatch which also knocked it back.


Yes, it is Mountain Dew Zero Sugar Baja Blast. My son loves it and since for some reason it's only available certain times of the year, he buys piles of 12-packs. 
I'm SO jealous of how good the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass stuff has worked for you. I've never seen it do anything even close to that. Maybe our climate is messing with it since here in southern California, we never have winters?
The bottle says to apply it when the temp is less than 70° so I've tried to follow that or spray in the evening so that at least it will be on cooling grass overnight. 
Still, no luck.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

vankjeff said:


> Yes, it is Mountain Dew Zero Sugar Baja Blast. My son loves it and since for some reason it's only available certain times of the year, he buys piles of 12-packs.
> I'm SO jealous of how good the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass stuff has worked for you. I've never seen it do anything even close to that. Maybe our climate is messing with it since here in southern California, we never have winters?
> The bottle says to apply it when the temp is less than 70° so I've tried to follow that or spray in the evening so that at least it will be on cooling grass overnight.
> Still, no luck.


I can't find the zero sugar easily, plenty of regular so i stocked up on that.

I used the Fusilade II, which uses the Fluazifop-P-butyl Butyl (R)-2-[4-[[5-(trifluoromethyl)-2-pyridinyl]oxy]phenoxy]propanoate. Even I don't want to pronounce it. I had to look up the structure and identify the functional groups.


I diluted to 4 ml per gallon, calculated out to a 0.0257% solution per 1k sq ft. I'll have to take some newer pictures, as there are small areas I just missed. None of the bermuda looks like it wants to grow back.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> moedank said:
> 
> 
> > That tall thin limegreen grass doesn't look like bermuda, appears to be nut grass/sedge.
> ...


From the side, the tall stuff looks like nut sedge. The straight down view looks totally different than nut sedge. It has a super thick stolon with some fat bladed grass. It looks a lot thicker than the common bermuda in my yard. Some other warm season grass, possibly St. Augustine? Are you certain your neighbor has bermuda? Take pics of the neighbors' lawn and post them.

Also, try posting in the warm season forum. Those folks will be better at identifying your grass(es).


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

That looks like a St. Augustine stolen. Thick.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> That looks like a St. Augustine stolen. Thick.


OMG guys. Thank you so much, all of you. Ever since someone here told me those looked like Bermudagrass stolons (maybe at the beginning of this long thread?), I've always thought that it's Bermudagrass. 
I suppose if it's St. Augustine & not Bermudagrass, that could explain why the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass stuff hasn't done anything to stunt it or kill it?
I'd been thinking yesterday that I should post a photo of both neighbor's short grass. It's really weird that both theirs is mowed so short, maybe 1", and yet I don't see any stolons in either of their yards even though I've got stolons and tall grass invading my yard from the boundaries of both yards.


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

St. Augustine is normally a very tall HOC, 4" or so. Post some photos, and use one of the many ID's online too.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Looks like crabgrass to me.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> Looks like crabgrass to me.


I think you might be right if any type of crabgrass has stolons. Does it?
I learned a little interesting info as I took some photos of both neighbor's front yards near their borders to mine.
The one nearest my main front yard, which is where the infestation and stolons are the worst, that I've shown you is mowed super low and I see a few tiny stolons in it, nowhere near as big as they get in my lawn, maybe since I mow at 2-1/2" and that gives them time to get big (1/8"-1/4" thick). The original owners of that home had added a 5" wide concrete curb between our yards decades ago when our homes were first being landscaped (see photo 1), perhaps to try to contain their grass, although I never knew that was why they did it. Unfortunately, it seems as if it hasn't been able to do that in the decades since our yards were installed with sod in 1993 just after the homes were built.
On the other side of my driveway that I've never shown, I've always thought that their grass was invading ours with similar stolons but that invading grass never seemed to grow as tall.
Here's some BIG NEWS. I see that the same grass with stolons that's invading my lawn in this narrow strip is also invading their grass (see the 2nd photo).
I'd never noticed that as I usually only see their yard looking mowed but it wasn't this time.
What do you think? Are both yards St Augustine & not Bermudagrass and that's why all that BioAdvanced Bermudagrass spray hasn't done anything?
If so, is there an easy to use, homeowner hook-up-a-hose-and-spray product to wipe out St Augustine grass without hurting the Tall Fescue?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

vankjeff said:


> OMG guys. Thank you so much, all of you. Ever since someone here told me those looked like Bermudagrass stolons (maybe at the beginning of this long thread?), I've always thought that it's Bermudagrass.
> I suppose if it's St. Augustine & not Bermudagrass, that could explain why the BioAdvanced Bermudagrass stuff hasn't done anything to stunt it or kill it?
> I'd been thinking yesterday that I should post a photo of both neighbor's short grass. It's really weird that both theirs is mowed so short, maybe 1", and yet I don't see any stolons in either of their yards even though I've got stolons and tall grass invading my yard from the boundaries of both yards.


Can somebody please still help me? I'd love to get rid of this mess with easy to use, homeowner chemicals, even if it's just crabgrass with stolons (see my last posting with 2 photos).


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

Around your soda cans, 100% bermuda. The area under your arrow, big time. Just pull some up. Also, if you could yank up a piece of that other grass for an ID would help, not on your yard though. Can't zoom in on these pictures. Google lens should be able to identify. Its hard to tell from a distance. Look at that stolon creeping across your line.
Here is pic of St Aug stolon. Why that would be there i have no idea. Unless its some other grassy weed, doesn't look like torpedo grass. crabgrass doesn't do that. If it is crabgrass, simple quinclorac in ortho 3-way weed killer for lawns would kill it. Its color is so crappy though, not taken care of obviously.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> Around your soda cans, 100% bermuda. The area under your arrow, big time. Just pull some up. Also, if you could yank up a piece of that other grass for an ID would help, not on your yard though. Can't zoom in on these pictures. Google lens should be able to identify. Its hard to tell from a distance. Look at that stolon creeping across your line.
> Here is pic of St Aug stolon. Why that would be there i have no idea. Unless its some other grassy weed, doesn't look like torpedo grass. crabgrass doesn't do that. If it is crabgrass, simple quinclorac in ortho 3-way weed killer for lawns would kill it. Its color is so crappy though, not taken care of obviously.
> View attachment 301


Oops. I'd missed seeing that you'd replied. I'll work on this tomorrow. I've never used or even heard of Google Lens so I guess that will be something new to learn about. 👍


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

macattack said:


> Around your soda cans, 100% Bermuda. The area under your arrow, big time. Just pull some up. Also, if you could yank up a piece of that other grass for an ID would help, not on your yard though. Can't zoom in on these pictures. Google lens should be able to identify. It's hard to tell from a distance. Look at that stolon creeping across your line.
> Here is pic of St Aug stolon. Why that would be there i have no idea. Unless it's some other grassy weed, doesn't look like torpedo grass. Crabgrass doesn't do that. If it is Crabgrass, simple quinclorac in ortho 3-way weed killer for lawns would kill it. Its color is so crappy though, not taken care of obviously.
> View attachment 301


.
Thanks. That Google Lens is cool. It identified the grass varieties or at least I hope it did. I finally figured out that when it said *CONNECTION TIMEOUT, PLEASE TRY AGAIN*, it was just that it couldn't figure out what I was asking it to identify.









It recognized that my Tall Fescue is heat stressed a little, due to the limited sprinkling that we're allowed in this part of California:









It seemed to think that the invading grass that has stolons is St Augustine Bitter Blue, or at least I hope I've got that right. It's been a few days since I took these photos.









It did say that some of it is Crabgrass in my front yard along with my stuff that's invading the neighbor's small grass area from the other side of my front yard that's across my driveway,


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Did I lose everyone? I'm sorry if I'm such a silly homeowner that doesn't know grasses or chemicals.


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## Factor (Oct 10, 2019)

Let me just work through this.



vankjeff said:


> doesn't know grasses or chemicals.


Keep sticking around and you will.


vankjeff said:


> such a silly homeowner


We all have our issues. Stop worrying about being silly.


vankjeff said:


> Do the Tall Fescue sprouts just grow along above-ground to spread its growth?


No Fescue is a bunching grass. It grows from seed.


vankjeff said:


> had it sodded with Tall Fescue


I would think that fescue couldn't survive the heat in Sothern CA
I would choose Zoysia.


vankjeff said:


> Maybe I've been cutting it too low?


If its Tall Fescue set the mower as TALL as it will go.. Its called Tall because it likes to be tall.


vankjeff said:


> these sprouts to grow


Fescue doesn't grow in sprouts. Its another type of grass.


vankjeff said:


> Do you think I should just call TruGreen and pay them to do it?


I would never hire TruGreen to do anything. I would find a Local run lawn company. Go to the local nursery (not Lowes or HD) ask them to recommend a company.


vankjeff said:


> All of which you need to be cautious if temps will be over 85-90F over the next 2-3 days after treating"


Fescue is a Cool Season grass it grows best in cool areas like Indiana where you moved from below Zone 7 it doesn't do well. You live in a Warm climate now.


vankjeff said:


> Primesource Quinclorac


Is a good product for Crabgrass, among other weeds.


vankjeff said:


> Maybe I'll just ignore it and mow my yard once a week.


Always a choice.


vankjeff said:


> drought all around us.


Fescue needs at least 1" of water per week but so does most other grass. In the summer to keep it green you need 3 times that amount.


vankjeff said:


> We're from Indianapolis and we like tall grass


This is what I figured.. You need a warm season grass. You are trying to make an eskimo live in the dessert OR Ordering Pasta at St Elmos Steak house..


vankjeff said:


> I rent a rototiller & rip the heck out of the bermudagrass and its tallons and then rake it all up as good as possible and spread TTF seed?


Yes you can do anything you are willing to pay for.. The results will be be same in the end. It will help spread bermuda if yo have any. You do need to plant Bermuda, Zoysia or St Augustine.


vankjeff said:


> Tall Fescue is heat stressed a little, due to the limited sprinkling that we're allowed in this part of California:


Again another reason to not grow fescue.

The running lime green grass you see in your yard and neighbors with stolons is St Augustine. post #53
The lime green grass you see in your yard is most likely Nutsedge. post #45

I hope that helps maybe it does.

My recommendation is to switch grass types to warm season like Zoysia. It would be my first choice or Bermuda as a second.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Thanks for all of that info, Factor. I just came across your Reply as for some reason I wasn't Notified that you'd Replied.
Your "
Your "The running lime green grass that you see in your yard and neighbors with stolons is St Augustine. (Post #53)
The lime green grass that you see in your yard is most likely Nutsedge. (Post #45)
My recommendation is to switch grass types to warm season like Zoysia. It would be my first choice or Bermuda as a second."
Thanks, but as the Tall Fescue has been doing fine since 1993 when the house was built and it was layer as sod, I still would like it. My neighbor 2 doors down has TF too and both of our yards have done fine.
I'm pretty sure that I caused my own problems when 2 years ago I took over mowing my own lawn and I set the mower at 2", not realizing that that would help the neighbors Bermuda on both sides of the front yard to invade.
We'll be selling the house in about a year, so I've just now been trying to do inexpensively to fix the yard.
That's what brought me to this forum.
I've now been mowing at 3" for many months. Do you think that I should try spraying that tall grass with BioAdvanced Bermuda Grass Weed Killer and if so, when with regards to day temperatures, what time of day to spray & would it help to saturate?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Factor said:


> Let me just work through this.
> 
> 
> Keep sticking around and you will.
> ...


Please make sure to notice that this is my 2nd reply today.
You said that I should stay away from TruGreen. I agree. When I first took over doing our lawncare 2 years ago, I did hire them, thinking that they were the "experts".
TruGreen was formerly Chemlawn & Chemlawn made lawns grow like crazy in my Indiana days with their liquid nitrogen or whatever they sprayed. Us lawn mowing guys hated them and we could sure tell when they'd sprayed one of our customer's yards.
Now, TruGreen would always leave a door hanger tag after each visit telling me what they'd done but also, EVERY TIME, it would say to raise the mower to max height which is 3".
Not knowing why, I ignored that for almost a year. Then the neighbor's Bermuda grass crept in on both sides of the front yard.
It can't in the backyard since there's block walls.
I did cancel TruGreen last year, mostly because they were constantly calling, trying to get me to buy other services like tree trimming, bush trimming, aeration and overseeding or insect repellent. It was totally annoying. 😕👎
Now I just spread my own fertilizer weed control on my little yard with a handheld spreader and I've spot sprayed some lawn weed killer on weeds that pop up or I pull them, plus I've been spraying that Bioadvanced Bermuda grass stuff in the spring and fall on days that my sprinklers haven't run & won't run.
My backyard looks awesome.


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Is anybody still with me here? Will my asking this in this Reply post it somewhere so that maybe somebody new will see it & respond if my guys have all Unsubscribed?


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## vankjeff (Jan 28, 2019)

Hello? Anybody there? We've had cooler days finally here in southern California (highs if 65) & I got more BioAdvanced Bermudagrass killer, so I sprayed it on today and even a little heavy. The Bermudagrass seems like it's growing these days but slower than earlier in the year. 
Did I do good or was I wasting chemicals?


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

Any updated pics? When it got later in the season the bermuda won't uptake herbicides as readily. My bermuda areas look mostly dead.


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