# 14 blade reel - toro flex 21



## stuswift5 (Jul 8, 2021)

I am looking for a greens mower to mow my lawn between 0.5" and 1". Likely will maintain at 0.75" for the most part. There is a Toro Flex 21 listed locally that is in great shape with a high HOC kit that goes up to 1". The only problem with it that I can imagine is that it has a 14 blade reel which my understanding is that an 8 blade reel would be most ideal for this HOC. I've read that many people use 11 blade reels and it is fine. Does anyone have experience with 14 blade reel on greater than 0.5" HOC?


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

stuswift5 said:


> I am looking for a greens mower to mow my lawn between 0.5" and 1". Likely will maintain at 0.75" for the most part. There is a Toro Flex 21 listed locally that is in great shape with a high HOC kit that goes up to 1". The only problem with it that I can imagine is that it has a 14 blade reel which my understanding is that an 8 blade reel would be most ideal for this HOC. I've read that many people use 11 blade reels and it is fine. Does anyone have experience with 14 blade reel on greater than 0.5" HOC?


I've done it with a Flex.

I tried it at .48, .50, .54, .60. For me on Zeon Zoysia it did not work to well. I also tried an 11 blade and it was better though not as good as the 8 blade.

If my mower came with an 11 blade I wouldn't stress too much, bit a 14 blade was pretty much a no-go if you are really OCD about how it looks.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Interested in the difference in appearance with TOO MANY blades vs the right amount.


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## littlehuman (Jun 10, 2020)

DFW245 said:


> Interested in the difference in appearance with TOO MANY blades vs the right amount.


Too many blades on your reel could mean you no longer have a direct match in the HOC and clip rate, and could lead to washboarding. See p13 of this doc: https://cdn2.toro.com/en/-/media/Files/Toro/Commercial/education-technical-references/service-training-guides/09168sl_5-4-2018.ashx?la=en&hash=1531E3CD624D41D0E5C07157493AFECD0FF67BEE


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

littlehuman said:


> DFW245 said:
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> > Interested in the difference in appearance with TOO MANY blades vs the right amount.
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Maybe im just...dumb. but this isn't sitting with me for some reason. I'm picturing it in my head and to me I would think more blades just means it's just spinning and not contacting the grass until it moves a little forward. Kinda like it's just over cutting. That diagram you linked to...seems to me like they might just be cutting too tall of grass. I always thought with too few blades you got washboarding, like I do currently. I didn't know too many led to the same result. Can someone ELI5?


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## littlehuman (Jun 10, 2020)

DFW245 said:


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You're correct, it's not really washboarding. It's really just beating the grass before actually cutting it and can lead to a less than desirable appearance.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Ah ok, that makes more sense. I'd love to see a photo example of that. All in all though, that 14 blade reel might be quite some overkill. I've used a 4blade manual reel for .75 before. I'd assume 14 blades might be better suited for extreme low cuts? Maybe different types?


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

The lighting isn't the best in this photo but you can get some idea:


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

DFW_Zoysia said:


> The lighting isn't the best in this photo but you can get some idea:


So it literally gives the same look as having too few blades? Thats crazy how that works. The mechanics of how that works is still a mystery in my own mentally automated diagram lol


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Most 7-8 blade machines (without adjustable reel speeds) have a FoC hovering around .250". And yet they seem to cut just fine at heights up to 1" with the appropriate bed knife geometry. High-count reels, 14 and 15 blades especially, are only capable of taking tiny bites out of the turf. Think of it like using a planer to do the job of a wood chipper. Technically, a 14/15 blade reel doesn't change the geometry of the cutting action, just the frequency. (ignoring reel blade sweep, helix, and blade thickness as they aren't significant in this specific comparison) Fed appropriately small bites, a 14 blade reel should cut just as good as an 8 at 1". But those looking to cut at 1" are unlikely to also be wanting to mow daily, as you normally would when mowing at the putting green heights for which a 14 blade is normally used.

It's not the additional height, it's the additional length of the clipping that is the reason high-count reels are unsuitable for higher HoC.


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## Tx_Ag19 (Dec 13, 2020)

I have a 14 blade reel on my flex 1800 and it provides an excellent cut as long as I mow frequently. Will be using PGR for the first time this year to reduce the daily mowing but it can be done with 14 blades. Just realize if you let it get too long, you'll have blades of grass that are missed and will require a double cut or more.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> Most 7-8 blade machines (without adjustable reel speeds) have a FoC hovering around .250". And yet they seem to cut just fine at heights up to 1" with the appropriate bed knife geometry. High-count reels, 14 and 15 blades especially, are only capable of taking tiny bites out of the turf. Think of it like using a planer to do the job of a wood chipper. Technically, a 14/15 blade reel doesn't change the geometry of the cutting action, just the frequency. (ignoring reel blade sweep, helix, and blade thickness as they aren't significant in this specific comparison) Fed appropriately small bites, a 14 blade reel should cut just as good as an 8 at 1". But those looking to cut at 1" are unlikely to also be wanting to mow daily, as you normally would when mowing at the putting green heights for which a 14 blade is normally used.
> 
> It's not the additional height, it's the additional length of the clipping that is the reason high-count reels are unsuitable for higher HoC.


I may have to pm you for a more thorough explanation. Most of this makes sense but that last part escapes me.


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## Tx_Ag19 (Dec 13, 2020)

DFW245 said:


> MasterMech said:
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> > Most 7-8 blade machines (without adjustable reel speeds) have a FoC hovering around .250". And yet they seem to cut just fine at heights up to 1" with the appropriate bed knife geometry. High-count reels, 14 and 15 blades especially, are only capable of taking tiny bites out of the turf. Think of it like using a planer to do the job of a wood chipper. Technically, a 14/15 blade reel doesn't change the geometry of the cutting action, just the frequency. (ignoring reel blade sweep, helix, and blade thickness as they aren't significant in this specific comparison) Fed appropriately small bites, a 14 blade reel should cut just as good as an 8 at 1". But those looking to cut at 1" are unlikely to also be wanting to mow daily, as you normally would when mowing at the putting green heights for which a 14 blade is normally used.
> ...


The 14 blade reel cuts every ~ .15" of the grass. If your grass blades get longer than that length, the blades of grass will "lay down" and not get cut by the reel.

You wont have a washboard effect but you will have a lot of grass blades that will stand up as they were not cut.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

I feel incredibly dumb. Seriously. It's not clicking....wouldn't that be mitigated by a faster reel? Or perhaps pushing your mower slower? For some reason my understanding is the shorter the gap between blades, the more precise it'll cut. I can't wrap my head around why itll miss any grass if the frequency of the blade contacting the bedknife is higher. Am I missing something completely? Or is my understanding of reel mowers off? Hate to derail this thread


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> Most 7-8 blade machines (without adjustable reel speeds) have a FoC hovering around .250". And yet they seem to cut just fine at heights up to 1" with the appropriate bed knife geometry. High-count reels, 14 and 15 blades especially, are only capable of taking tiny bites out of the turf. Think of it like using a planer to do the job of a wood chipper. Technically, a 14/15 blade reel doesn't change the geometry of the cutting action, just the frequency. (ignoring reel blade sweep, helix, and blade thickness as they aren't significant in this specific comparison) Fed appropriately small bites, a 14 blade reel should cut just as good as an 8 at 1". But those looking to cut at 1" are unlikely to also be wanting to mow daily, as you normally would when mowing at the putting green heights for which a 14 blade is normally used.
> 
> It's not the additional height, it's the additional length of the clipping that is the reason high-count reels are unsuitable for higher HoC.


Wait wait ...I think it might be just clicked...correct me if I'm wrong.

So with a higher number of blades moving at a pace, there's less space for taller grass to stand itself up in between each blade and therefore some grass won't get snipped? But my line of thinking is, if you just slow down and let the reel continue at it's pace, wouldn't it cut more of it? Kinda like my theory on, even if you don't have enough blades to cut low, wouldn't going over it in the same direction multiple times increase your chance of eliminating the washboard look since you aren't starting in the exact same spot?


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

DFW245 said:


> MasterMech said:
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> > Most 7-8 blade machines (without adjustable reel speeds) have a FoC hovering around .250". And yet they seem to cut just fine at heights up to 1" with the appropriate bed knife geometry. High-count reels, 14 and 15 blades especially, are only capable of taking tiny bites out of the turf. Think of it like using a planer to do the job of a wood chipper. Technically, a 14/15 blade reel doesn't change the geometry of the cutting action, just the frequency. (ignoring reel blade sweep, helix, and blade thickness as they aren't significant in this specific comparison) Fed appropriately small bites, a 14 blade reel should cut just as good as an 8 at 1". But those looking to cut at 1" are unlikely to also be wanting to mow daily, as you normally would when mowing at the putting green heights for which a 14 blade is normally used.
> ...


On a GM, the way you go faster is to raise the throttle. The more you raise the throttle the mower move faster, but so do the blades. So it stays constant.

I had a JD GM that had a variable knob on it so you could easily adjust the blade speed for FOC separate of the mower speed.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

DFW_Zoysia said:


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Oh then that's probably where my incorrect thought process is. Reels and wheels don't move independently of each other when I assumed they did.


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

I had an 11 blade on flex, I replaced it with an 8 blade. So much better. Changing the reel out wasn't too difficult. The manual tells you how to do it step by step. There is a large socket you will need for the main reel nut, that a normal person won't have in their toolbox, but other than that it was pretty straightforward. Maybe you could get the price down, and change out the reel.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

DFW245 said:


> Oh then that's probably where my incorrect thought process is. Reels and wheels don't move independently of each other when I assumed they did.


On some mowers they do, others they do not. Tru-Cuts, McLanes, Cal-Trimmers etc, they are in fact independent. On most greensmowers, they are not (intentionally) although some electric drive units (JD 180/220E, Jacobsen Eclipse) they allow you to easily adjust the Frequency of Clip.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

MasterMech said:


> DFW245 said:
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> > Oh then that's probably where my incorrect thought process is. Reels and wheels don't move independently of each other when I assumed they did.
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Ohh ok. So the cal trimmer and the rest of those, allow you to speed up or slow down the speed of the reel? Without pushing the mower any faster?


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

DFW245 said:


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Yes and no. I may have done a poor job answering this one. The trimmer and McLane go one-speed relative to engine rpm when the drive roller is down. You can leave the roller up and just push the mower slowly however.

With Tru-Cut, you can feather the drive clutches to slow the machine.

Being able to speed up the reel isn't really an advantage anyways.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

MasterMech said:


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It's not an advantage? I assumed by having a faster/slower reel speed you could in theory achieve a better cut with the walking speed being a constant. Obviously like you stated, with the reel speed being the constant, your walking speed can vary to achieve the cut but wouldnt they be the same in performance/quality of cut?


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

DFW245 said:


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Increasing reel speed without increasing ground speed means that the reel will push grass towards the bedknife more aggressively. If the bedknife edge isn't there to meet the uncut grass, it slips to the next reel blade and that's called "fanning" the grass. The best aftercut appearance is attained when the cutting action happens only once on any given blade of grass at a specific height. That applies to rotary mowers too. (A properly adjusted rotary inclines the blade slightly to achieve this.) "Fanning" the grass blades even before cutting is pretty undesirable and can actually push the grass under the knife and away from the cutting action. The taller the grass is, the worse this effect gets. (More stragglers.) The taller the grass is above the HoC, the more likely it is to get "fanned" by the reel blades. When everything is working perfectly, the grass barely gets moved before cutting.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

MasterMech said:


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Wow, didn't know that. That's very interesting. Thanks. I guess I was figuring only one blade touched the grass per revolution...being the blade that's contacting the bedknife.


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