# New Scotts ProVista Kentucky Bluegrass



## Dkrem

I did a search of the board and couldn't find any posts related to the new/upcoming ProVista Kentucky Bluegrass. There's some chatter about the StAug, but this is bluegrass!

There isn't much info on the Scotts sites about it, but I did find this presentation:
https://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/iftbc2019/Presentations/Monday/AM/900am_Harriman.pdf

And there are a couple sod farms advertising it:
https://www.paynesodfarm.com/turf-varieties/provista/
http://www.columbus-turf.com/provista.html

I have an email in to the Scotts people asking more info about it. Supposedly it is or will be available as both sod and seed. Despite me living in Kentucky, KBG doesn't really do well here unless you irrigate the crap out of it all summer long, the summers are just too hot and dry. Being that this stuff is crossbred and modified in several different ways I wonder how its heat and drought tolerance differs from normal KBG, if at all.


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## g-man

I think @osuturfman has seen it in their fields. I think it is grown near us, in southeast Indiana or south of Columbus Ohio.

I think you can only get it in sod.


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## Dkrem

g-man said:


> I think @osuturfman has seen it in their fields. I think it is grown near us, in southeast Indiana or south of Columbus Ohio.


Makes sense given their headquarters is just west of Columbus in Marysville.



g-man said:


> I think you can only get it in sod.


I've seen numerous mentions of seed being or becoming available.


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## occamsrzr

ProVista KBG seed was used in LCN's latest video with Millennial Farmer.


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## g-man

I assumed at first they wanted to keep more profit by selling just sod.


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## Sinclair

KBG that will tolerate 256oz/acre glyphosate is really amazing and kind of frightening.


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## Dkrem

Sinclair said:


> KBG that will tolerate 256oz/acre glyphosate is really amazing and kind of frightening.


It is VERY remarkable! There's still plenty of other nonselective options to kill it if and where needed, so I'm not too worried about KBG covering my property like kudzu.


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## Dkrem

This is interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hty2olaMoRg


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## SJ Lawn

I think forum members here "enjoy the mow". Twice a week mowing during peak growing weather conditions is not too troublesome for us.


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## Dkrem

SJ Lawn said:


> I think forum members here "enjoy the mow". Twice a week mowing during peak growing weather conditions is not too troublesome for us.


Agree. I'm interested for self-repairing and glyphosate resistant good looking grass. Though my TTTF in its happiest state of existence will grow 1" or more in 24 hours. Last spring I once mowed 5 times in 7 days, and it NEEDED it every time. I consider that a little much to still have fun at it..


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## sangheili

Apparently it's not for sale yet on the West Coast. Pretty interested in the seed myself, all the features are desirable. I'm curious how it tolerates stress and disease compared to modern cultivars.


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## mobiledynamics

I'm looking at the PDF on my phone. Unless I am looking at it wrongs, looks pretty wide no ?


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## Collywood

So what happens when we decide we don't like the color or disease resistance or whatever other trait we use to rationalize yet another reno?

Or is there a different herbicide that will become a substitute killswitch for this the way glypho is typically used?


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## Dkrem

I just received a reply email from Scotts about its heat and drought tolerance:

Doug,
This will perform similar to other Kentucky Bluegrasses in regards to heat and dry weather. Having access to irrigation can definitely help it stay green through the summer.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Dkrem said:


> I just received a reply email from Scotts about its heat and drought tolerance:
> 
> Doug,
> This will perform similar to other Kentucky Bluegrasses in regards to heat and dry weather. Having access to irrigation can definitely help it stay green through the summer.


Interesting that it can take an absolute pounding with glyphosate but doesn't seem to have much drought resistance,according to that response


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## occamsrzr

It's much easier to select for one desirable trait than several. I'm sure drought tolerance will come along after glyphosate tolerance in KBG is more widespread.


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## Green

Sinclair said:


> KBG that will tolerate 256oz/acre glyphosate is really amazing and kind of frightening.


So, how do you kill it? They must explain how to do so if needed.

Also, I doubt (and hope) this doesn't get put into any of their box store mixes.


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## Green

Other thing is, I would expect glyphosate tolerant KBG will naturally increase the incidence of glyphodate-tolerant Poa Trivialis if used a lot alongside it...so be careful what you wish for!


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## Dkrem

Green said:


> Sinclair said:
> 
> 
> 
> KBG that will tolerate 256oz/acre glyphosate is really amazing and kind of frightening.
> 
> 
> 
> So, how do you kill it? They must explain how to do so if needed.
Click to expand...

I'm sure a nice spritz of household white vinegar would kill it, or some dog pee, or any of the hundreds of other things that will kill your grass. It's just that glypho won't work on this one.


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## Mtsdream

Is that roughly 1.9 oz per 300sqft tolerance or is my math off?


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## Thick n Dense

I'll come out of the closet and state that I was able to get my hands on some Provista KBG seed.

Going down this weekend so I have nothing to report on it.

The Scott's guys said it's officially for sale but only direct from them.

If you're interested stay consistent with the form on their site.

Why I'm not concerned with Triv  the feeling is priceless


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## gatorguy

This is a pretty interesting development, especially for those of us in Canada. We have glypho, 24d, dicamba and mecacrop but thats about it that is available to the average consumer without going cross border. I am imagining that we could get excellent poa a control in this&#128513;

But yes, the low mowing frequency isn't exciting. Maybe that could change with lots of N though.


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## GrassFarmer

For those wondering how to kill this grass clethodim would be a good option.


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## Harts

gatorguy said:


> This is a pretty interesting development, especially for those of us in Canada. We have glypho, 24d, dicamba and mecacrop but thats about it that is available to the average consumer without going cross border. I am imagining that we could get excellent poa a control in this😁
> 
> But yes, the low mowing frequency isn't exciting. Maybe that could change with lots of N though.


Not in Ontario! We have to order from Seed World and pay exorbitant shipping costs and sometimes duties/taxes.


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## Dkrem

I've continued my email conversation with Ben [email protected] asking how I can get some to try an overseed or a reno test patch of the acre+ I care for. He just replied:



> Hey Doug,
> We don't have it set up for sale through our website yet, but I can place an order for you. The current cost is $20 per pound before tax. We currently only have 50# bags available but should have 10# bags become available around mid-September.


Yikes! Dropping a grand to test in my climate is a STEEP test, $200 isn't much better. I'd go in for a pound or two so I can make a nice little 10' test patch off behind my yard in what is currently pasture grass (probably KY-31). If I wanted to convert I'd probably overseed my whole TTTF acreish area with one 50# bag the first fall, and see what comes up, competes well with the fescue, and spreads over the year. If I end up with a good mix I'd glypho the whole thing and toss another 50# the next fall to finish it off.


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## Thick n Dense

Dkrem said:


> I've continued my email conversation with Ben [email protected] asking how I can get some to try an overseed or a reno test patch of the acre+ I care for. He just replied:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Doug,
> We don't have it set up for sale through our website yet, but I can place an order for you. The current cost is $20 per pound before tax. We currently only have 50# bags available but should have 10# bags become available around mid-September.
> 
> 
> 
> Yikes! Dropping a grand to test in my climate is a STEEP test, $200 isn't much better. I'd go in for a pound or two so I can make a nice little 10' test patch off behind my yard in what is currently pasture grass (probably KY-31). If I wanted to convert I'd probably overseed my whole TTTF acreish area with one 50# bag the first fall, and see what comes up, competes well with the fescue, and spreads over the year. If I end up with a good mix I'd glypho the whole thing and toss another 50# the next fall to finish it off.
Click to expand...

50# bag for 1K$ is steep... Their recommended seeding rate is 2# per 1K which is a little bit less than what kbg typically is.

Also, I bet you can go lighter and allow it to spread while using glyphosate to hold off competition while it fills in.


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## Dkrem

Thick n Dense said:


> Also, I bet you can go lighter and allow it to spread while using glyphosate to hold off competition while it fills in.


True. there's a lot that could be done to fescue to thin it out and make room without killing it all at once. I think their "reduced mowing" growth features of this stuff also mean reduced spreading too.


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## Thick n Dense

Dkrem said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I bet you can go lighter and allow it to spread while using glyphosate to hold off competition while it fills in.
> 
> 
> 
> True. there's a lot that could be done to fescue to thin it out and make room without killing it all at once. I think their "reduced mowing" growth features of this stuff also mean reduced spreading too.
Click to expand...

This a good point that I hadn't thought of... I asked them what cultivars that Provista was derived from and they would not answer. I made a point that us folks are picky and if it was really a gly tolerant midnight type, would be all over that!!!!

Like using PGR's, top growth and root growth are 2 separate mechanisms in the plant so while it's possible that it spread slow I'd lean on the other side of the fence especially with the decreased seeding rate.

I bought 2 tray's of bella blue grass that has roots that will go down as far as the soil lets it like TF. I asked how far the roots go down and they said the normal amount. A lot of mid atlantic and southern varieties have better heat stress because the deeper root system. again another thing yet to be validated.

So a lot of these claims most likely were derived from an existing cultivar. Bella blue grass top growth is ridiculous slow but they didn't use bella as the base...

Curious how much of the plant is GMO'ed vs taking an exiting cultivar and apply Gly tolerance to it.

Either way this is exciting, in 5-10 years would could have low mow, dark green kbg that's gly tolerant, roots down to 5 feet deep and spreads bermuda.

And for the folks complaining about other grass cross pollinating, there's always solarization as method to kill if glyphosate doesn't work anymore. This acutually might be a better way to kill triv anyway... don't have to worry about coverage or getting it all. Cover it up and let it die.


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## Dkrem

Thick n Dense said:


> This a good point that I hadn't thought of... I asked them what cultivars that Provista was derived from and they would not answer. I made a point that us folks are picky and if it was really a gly tolerant midnight type, would be all over that!!!!


I watched Allyn's video of seeding Zach's dad's yard with it and he made mention of the plant having spinach traits inserted for super dark green color.


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## Green

Dkrem said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sinclair said:
> 
> 
> 
> KBG that will tolerate 256oz/acre glyphosate is really amazing and kind of frightening.
> 
> 
> 
> So, how do you kill it? They must explain how to do so if needed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sure a nice spritz of household white vinegar would kill it, or some dog pee, or any of the hundreds of other things that will kill your grass. It's just that glypho won't work on this one.
Click to expand...

They (Scotts) should have instructions (and a method that does not prohibit reseeding for a period of time).


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## Calvininne

Let's get 10 guys together and split a 50 pound bag We can get test plots from different states and get some results posted on the forum


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## ABC123

anybody have pictures of what it looks like?

im down for purchasing 20lbs of seed if anybody wants to split.


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## wino_tim

I can also come out of the closet and say that I am doing a full reno with Provista KBG.

9 days in, no germination yet.


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## Green

GrassFarmer said:


> For those wondering how to kill this grass clethodim would be a good option.


Interesting. I'm not familiar with it.


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## Green

@Thick n Dense, do you have a thread going on the Bella? I saw it on one of those shopping channels a year or so ago. Thanks.


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## Green

This 2016 article is relevant: https://www.turfmagazine.com/innovation/seeds-of-disruption/


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## SumBeach35

Mtsdream said:


> Is that roughly 1.9 oz per 300sqft tolerance or is my math off?


256 oz /A is 8 oz/M if my math is correct


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## Dkrem

Green said:


> This 2016 article is relevant: https://www.turfmagazine.com/innovation/seeds-of-disruption/


Interesting that the article specifically mentions fescue a few times. Where is the fescue? Summers here are typically too hot and dry for Bluegrass, about half dies every summer.


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## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense, do you have a thread going on the Bella? I saw it on one of those shopping channels a year or so ago. Thanks.


I only did like 50 sqft of bella and didn't do a thread. 
Someone was asking for it earlier and posted some pictures, I'd say around the spring of this year. 
Here's the thread: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2756&p=271778&hilit=bella#p271778

It's good stuff but wilts in the heat then completely rebuilds from rhizomes. It's also gorgeous but not Glypho tolerant. 
The low mow claims are true, but does pick up a bit when it get's warmer so other regions might have different results.

I don't think it's for US... it takes too long to establish, it's too expensive and planting plugs are actually way harder then seeding a reno. 
I did mine 2.5 years ago at 12 feet apart and I still don't have full coverage, so you really can't skimp on the plug spacing if you want anything that looks like a lawn any time soon.

But it is freaking gorgeous and unique in blade size, shape, not going to lie.


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## Thick n Dense

Grass babies are coming up but definitely not as fast as my Bewitched, Midnight, Everest, Nuglade mix I seeded a couple of years ago.

I did however do a lighter rate a 2-2.5 lb per thousand and it was windy when I applied so not expecting the greatest results in terms of coverage. 
I'll definitely say that there's something to be said about mixing seed with milorganite for better spread-ability and control, yea... also less refills with the whizz if it's possible to get a good ratio... (idk haven't done the math yet but seems possible).

The spots with good peat coverage are just starting to poke their heads... I think I'm just shy of 2 weeks.

I'll start taking pictures for the good of the community I suppose.


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## wino_tim

I will too as soon as I see any real action. I have the tiniest bit of germination right now at 9 days but am basically still on bare ground.


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## Green

Thick n Dense said:


> I'll definitely say that there's something to be said about mixing seed with milorganite for better spread-ability and control, yea... also less refills with the whizz if it's possible to get a good ratio... (idk haven't done the math yet but seems possible).


How did you do that? Did you wet it or do it dry?


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## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll definitely say that there's something to be said about mixing seed with milorganite for better spread-ability and control, yea... also less refills with the whizz if it's possible to get a good ratio... (idk haven't done the math yet but seems possible).
> 
> 
> 
> How did you do that? Did you wet it or do it dry?
Click to expand...

Idk, haven't tried yet, there's this...
https://www.milorganite.com/lawn-care/grasses-seed-sod/seed-and-sod-application-rates

Or soaking the seed entirely then mixing ... :https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed

the entire pre-germination route scares me a bit so I would only soak for like 1 day then mix and throw down.


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## JerseyGreens

Any updates on the two users that used this seed on renos?


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## JerseyGreens

And is it just me or the blades look very thick in the pictures?


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## ABC123

JerseyGreens said:


> And is it just me or the blades look very thick in the pictures?


page 18 doesnt look too thick. I think a lot of the thicker pictures are st. augustine.

https://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/iftbc2019/Presentations/Monday/AM/900am_Harriman.pdf


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## Thick n Dense

ABC123 said:


> JerseyGreens said:
> 
> 
> 
> And is it just me or the blades look very thick in the pictures?
> 
> 
> 
> page 18 doesnt look too thick. I think a lot of the thicker pictures are st. augustine.
> 
> https://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/iftbc2019/Presentations/Monday/AM/900am_Harriman.pdf
Click to expand...


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## timmybluegrass

JerseyGreens said:


> Any updates on the two users that used this seed on renos?


Same Tim, different handle. 

In the best parts my KBG looks identical to @Thick n Dense's. My reno has been _very_ slow to grow in, taking nearly two and half weeks to germinate and another three to get out of sprout and pout. That said, in the few messages Thick and I have sent back and forth it seems like he hasn't had that experience so in no way should my experience be interpreted as a knock against ProVista. I'm honestly not sure why mine took so long - I'm not new to lawncare or bluegrass - but despite having a rough looking lawn at the moment, I am quite confident things will be rocking and rolling come springtime.


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## JerseyGreens

Thick n Dense said:


> ABC123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JerseyGreens said:
> 
> 
> 
> And is it just me or the blades look very thick in the pictures?
> 
> 
> 
> page 18 doesnt look too thick. I think a lot of the thicker pictures are st. augustine.
> 
> https://conference.ifas.ufl.edu/iftbc2019/Presentations/Monday/AM/900am_Harriman.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That's looking great for a Reno. Looks mature already.


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## Thick n Dense

Yea I agree with Tim. I even had germination at weeks 4-5... I seeded the 3rd week of august for reference.

It has been cooler than traditionally is from September until now.

My grass isn't even out of sprout and pout in many areas. 
I believe that the Extreme slow grow genetics is playing a role in how long sprout and pout is taking. 
This makes it somewhat frustrating as mowing helps it spread ... you might be ok with a reel which I don't own.

It's been 2 months and some plants haven't met the blades of the time master yet.

That being said, I'm with Tim that I'm very very confident that it will be gorgeous (and triv free) come spring.

I have weeds, some triv is probably lurking and there was a patch of bent grass on the west side And I did have a poa A problem. So as more and more fills in it's tough to tell if it's the kbg or the other types.

I haven't blasted with glyphosate yet as I haven't even been able to get a couple mows in yet and don't want to risk damage. But I can't wait too lol ... bye bye triv, poa A and bent G in one fell swoop.

This might be the only kbg that's better to sow in spring tbh ...

I'll take some pictures soon... it just really looks kind of bad in spots that didn't germinate well because the height of the blades are so short that it doesn't cover up as much.

The color has Changed from an alpine green to what's showing up in the pictures and I think it will get darker as well.

I can say though that this area with the pictures filled in realllllly nice... it does seem like it has the PGR affect built into its genetics. Maybe Tim can confirm as well ...


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## Thick n Dense

I'll add too that I had some early germination as well the range was 1-5 weeks for me where as @timmybluegrass was 2-3 and had no early germination... could be shade vs sun or the use of soil moist and peat moss... idk but in an indoor pot test some elite cultivars blew it out of the water in germination time. Maybe the slow growth even is seen in germination time... makes sense I guess...

All good things are worth waiting for...


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## Thick n Dense

Also I can firmly say that if it dries out it dies out is simply not true... based on this Reno... maybe a feature unique to provista ?


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## timmybluegrass

@Thick n Dense, we haven't private messaged in a few weeks, it looks our experiences are more similar than I realized. With the exception of your slightly earlier germination, it sounds like you have been seeing exactly what I have been seeing.

I plan to to do a Journal for 2021 so, @JerseyGreens, and anyone else who wants to see how this grass does in the very toasty Transition Zone can follow along. Like Thick I am excited to see this grass once it is up and running and am quite confident that it will do well, though it will be interesting to see just how well it does in the heat and humidity of a Maryland summer.

That said, if Thick and my experiences are representative of how this grass performs during a renovation - and that is still an _if_, as it is completely unfair to draw any conclusions based on performance in just two lawns - I would not recommend seeding ProVista to anyone who doesn't have a lot of experience with bluegrass and _a lot_ of patience. As Thick can attest to, there were a couple times where I shot him messages in borderline despair, and again, while I am not g-man, I am not new to lawncare or bluegrass. Things got to the point where around the third week of September - about a month after seed down - I was remeasuring my lawn and digging through my notes convinced I had applied too much Dimension in the Spring. (I hadn't, FWIW). My wife started saying things like "are we going to have a lawn?" A literal circus of broadleaf weeds, triv, annua, and nutsedge showed up. I started thinking about renting a moving truck and driving to the nearest sod farm selling ProVista sod - about five hours away - and spending thousands. Then I started thinking about overseeding rye or fescue. Looking at the Journals of people who were renovating - including people who faced some near disasters like Jersey - and seeing how far ahead they were, was terribly unhelpful as it made me start to doubt my own knowledge of lawncare and think that this was all a horrendously bad decision.

But I stayed the course and on October 5th - about 40 days after seed down - even though my grass wasn't tall enough to mow, I said "f it," pulled out my push reel mower, set it to an inch and half, and mowed anyway. I also dropped a quarter pound of N via urea. Whether it was the N or just the timing, the lawn responded; areas where grass could only be seen with a flashlight at night started to grow to the point they could be seen in daytime, areas that were a little more substantial started to fill in.

I've been dropping quarter pound doses of N every six or seven days since and have mowed what I could often and the progress has been awesome. Like Thick I still have areas that aren't ready to mow and to anyone in the real world outside of this forum the lawn looks pretty rough. But the potential is obviously there and at least at this point I can tell my wife "yes, we will have a lawn." :lol:

I tested SpeedZone on a small area of the lawn last Monday and had no damage to my ProVista so I am going to spray that on Monday to fight off the broadleaf weeds. (I have so much bittercress I could literally harvest it - more on that in a different post). I am going test glypho too and see if I can't knock out some Triv before the end of the season. Temperatures are warm here; today it is almost 80°F, so I am thinking I will have three more weeks of growth though obviously my gains are going to start slowing.



*Yes, that is a grow light in the picture above. :| The area near the patio gets a lot of shade and getting bluegrass to establish there has always been a challenge.


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## JerseyGreens

@timmybluegrass that is starting to come in nicely. I think all KBG is stressful as all hell when you put down a 2lb or so per K seeding rate. I would say that as an across the board statement. Then add washouts...good Lord....

Around 30 days past seed down I thought I would have mud come this time of year and that's far from true!

Will be interesting following your journal next year to see how it does. Can it be mowed low? Fungus concerns? Etc etc.

I went with BlueBank aka the new Midnight without many posts here or pictures. Only two or so max BlueBank Mono's were on these forums when I decided. I know people are following mine closely just as they will yours.

Time will tell!


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## timmybluegrass

@JerseyGreens, in fairness, that is the best looking section of the reno. I am hesitant to post pictures of other sections for a couple reasons. Most importantly, I work in an industry where customers will take anecdotal experiences with items I sell and draw broad and erroneous conclusions from them and post said conclusions online as if they were firmly established facts. Grass seed listings on Amazon, Lowes, Home Depot (etc.) are littered with reviews written by people who have no idea what they are talking about, blaming the seed for all sorts of ills. While you and most other Lawn Forum readers are knowledgeable enough to understand the trials and tribulations of KBG lawn renovations, I still worry that posting ugly pictures would give a bad image to a project that a lot of very good people have put a ton of work into.

I hope that doesn't sound too mushy. :lol: If my lawn sucks next year I promise I'll tell you in my Journal.

In terms of your questions, I don't know about low mowing. While I was able to speak to one of Scotts' scientists involved in the trials of ProVista on the phone, low cutting was not something I brought up. For one, as blasphemous as this might sound, it just isn't my thing, at least not at this point. Second, while a few people - @bernstem comes to mind - are killing it with low mowed KBG in the Transition Zone, it is pretty tough to to pull off. Heat here isn't insane but humidity certainly is. That ties right into your second question: in terms of disease I was told was to expect ProVista to perform about the same as any other elite cultivar of KBG. Simply put, I plan to be pretty aggressive with my preventative apps of fungicides, especially in year one.


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## ABC123

I dont think its wrong to post ugly pictures, you cant hide the truth. And the truth is bluegrass can be a pain to watch.


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## bernstem

The interesting thing about moving to a lower mowing height, at least for me so far, is that it seems to have reduced disease pressure some, and disease pressure is the biggest problem I deal with. While I don't know that moving to 1/2 inch is the answer, I do think that the newer dwarf KBG varieties (and ProVista sounds like it will be in that category) seem to prefer mowing heights of 1.5-2.5 inches. Keeping it longer leads to too much moisture in the grass and very high disease pressure. The shorter turf dries out faster.

@timmybluegrass You make a good point that the experience of 1-2 lawns is too small to draw any conclusions from, so take my observations as just my observations. Too many other factors can also influence turf grass quality to definitively attribute what I see to just mowing height, but it seems to be a significant factor for me.


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## timmybluegrass

@bernstem, yeah, I largely agree and certainly wasn't planning to mow at 4" or anything. I think I am going to start at 2" in the spring and see where the season takes me. Obviously with ProVista being so new there aren't a lot of data points to look at.

What I will say is that I think with KBG in the Transition Zone there's a balance between the disease pressure that comes with tall mowing and the stress that comes from low mowing. As you discussed, there are a million factors at play here, and what could be considered stress in one situation might not be particularly stressful in another.

The other element is that mowing height is sort of like haircut style in that different people like different things. I've always liked the lush look of KBG (or fescue, or even St. Aug when I was down south) around 3". I think your lawn and many other reel mowed low-cut lawns look awesome, though.

As a final note, I do have a buddy who I roped into doing a ProVista reno on his front lawn outside of Kansas City. I am pretty sure he plans to reel mow it. I'll see if I can get him to post here and do a Journal.


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## Thick n Dense

I mowed again today and it looks even fuller than last week. 
The color turned darker as well but I think is just natural from the cooler temps. 
Spots that I thought I would have needed to seed in the spring 1 month ago no longer look like it's necessary.

I was planning on keeping between 2-3" next year... even in Michigan, keeping the HOC 3" or lower helps tremendously with disease pressure.

Overall it's starting to look really good in many parts of the yard and look forward until next season.

Feels good to have a lawn again.

I'll post some pics this week, tried to take some today but my phone was full.

I also feel like getting it cut helped with getting to move and even out of sprout and pout...


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## Green

@timmybluegrass, there seem to be a few KBG cultivars like that...super slow. I planted one advertised as a low mow variety almost two months ago and it has done virtually nothing yet except germinate and tiller a bit. It's still baby grass that looks like hair, and still under an inch long generally. It's also in the shade which doesn't help. I never intended to seed late either. Plus, I got poor coverage due most likely to washout. That's ok...looking forward to Spring.

The only other thing this slow was the Hard Fescue I planted in the Spring. Not sure if the Gallery herbicide I sprayed on it before germinat>on played a role; fescues are supposed to be a lot faster generally, but maybe Hard Fescue is an exception. It hasn't really been mowed yet, and it germinated back in April.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Green

What Low Mow KBG did you seed with?


----------



## Ngilbe36

I figure Id reply here instead of starting a new thread, but has anyone ever tried to create their own glyphosate resistant KBG? Could you just keep micro dosing it to make it build immunity, or does that sort of thing take years and years to accomplish?


----------



## themishmosh

So what is the website or email where I can purchase? I'll like to try 10#. $20/lb is cheap compared to what it would cost you to get your hands on PoaCure--even if you could get it.


----------



## ABC123

https://provistaturf.com/pages/i-want-provista

and they will contact you via email.


----------



## Green

Thick n Dense said:


> @Green
> 
> What Low Mow KBG did you seed with?


MyHolidayLawn...apparently discontinued now. 
Mowww is using some as well. not sure if anyone else is.


----------



## Mdjamesd

LCN did a video with CleetusMcFarland where he installed the Provista sod a few months back


----------



## WyGuy

Mdjamesd said:


> LCN did a video with CleetusMcFarland where he installed the Provista sod a few months back


That was ProVista St. Augustine. LCN was part of a big reno someone was doing that used ProVista KBG but I haven't seen any updates on that.


----------



## Thick n Dense

All I could muster right now lol ... taken through windows.

The spot in the bottom of the 2nd picture has been battling rabbits eating the grass...

While the time of day and sun make the 1st photo look darker... I assure you that it is actually darker because its more mature... germinated faster.

Also, mowed at setting E on the time master... not entirely sure which that is .


----------



## sheepfescue

For lawns with areas of partial or dense shade (where one would normally incorporate a different or at least blended grass under tree lines and in otherwise shaded areas), is there any rationale for having this ProVista KBG?

I mean... is really, like--ultimately--the only selling point and rationale for using it the glyphosate tolerance?

Is SMG going to come out with a sun-and-shade mix that contains the KBG, gly-rye (which, if I'm not mistaken, might have been their's), and some hard fescue that tolerates glyphosate?


----------



## themishmosh

It is hard to justify ProVista KBG where you do not intend it as a monostand and where it will not thrive. This includes areas that have too much shade, is not well drained, or the climate is too hot. Just my 2c.


----------



## Thick n Dense

sheepfescue said:


> For lawns with areas of partial or dense shade (where one would normally incorporate a different or at least blended grass under tree lines and in otherwise shaded areas), is there any rationale for having this ProVista KBG?
> 
> I mean... is really, like--ultimately--the only selling point and rationale for using it the glyphosate tolerance?
> 
> Is SMG going to come out with a sun-and-shade mix that contains the KBG, gly-rye (which, if I'm not mistaken, might have been their's), and some hard fescue that tolerates glyphosate?


This is a selling point... Does good in the shade as it doesn't waste it's energy trying to stretch out looking for sun.

The Scotts Guys did make a special note about this when we were discussing.

If you guys are curious about this mechanism, look up IR an NIR light... Tree's filter out the good colors from the sun and leaves the Red-ish range which triggers plants to raise up and get taller... kind of like wasting their energy to find light which in most cases they won't.

I did this research because I wanted to buy a grow light for indoors and there's misconception about full spectrum vs the red looking lights.

How Provista counters this I'm not sure, but I'd guess that it doesn't react to the Red light OR it's vertical growth is limited by it's genetics. That's a guess though.


----------



## timmybluegrass

sheepfescue said:


> I mean... is really, like--ultimately--the only selling point and rationale for using it the glyphosate tolerance?


So as Scotts is selling it there are five main benefits to ProVista:
1. Glyphosate tolerance, which you mentioned.
2. Improved performance in shade which @Thick n Dense just discussed.
3. Slower growth habit, cutting number of mows by as much as 50%. 
4. Lower water requirements.
5. Lower nitrogen requirements.

Like Thick my Provista is still in its infancy so I cannot comment with certainty on any of these claims. I can say - even this early on - that establishment in partial shade has been impressive though maturity of these areas has still not been reached even sixty-six days after seeding. I can also vouch for the growth habit being slow. Even when pounding it with nitrogen - a quarter pound per M every six or seven days - I'm still not mowing more than once or twice a week. When I did this to Blue Note - my favorite KBG for my area - I was mowing every day.

Honestly, for some people in this forum the slow growth rate could actually be a negative as many love to mow. Generally I am one of those people but as my busiest season at work is late summer and early fall, I think I'll really appreciate the opportunity to skip some mows without having to do all the detailed GDD work that comes with keeping bluegrass in regulation using PGRs.


----------



## themishmosh

ABC123 said:


> https://provistaturf.com/pages/i-want-provista
> 
> and they will contact you via email.


Thanks. They did email me to say that seed isn't available. Maybe they sold out?


----------



## ABC123

They said mid october they will be selling 10lb bags, people might of bought them out?


----------



## themishmosh

ABC123 said:


> They said mid october they will be selling 10lb bags, people might of bought them out?


Ok. Maybe that's it. I requested 20#. Maybe there's still hope for me...


----------



## osuturfman

The water requirements are just as high, if not higher, than any other elite KBG. If you let it dry out, it snaps back quickly with rain or irrigation.

The one thing I think people here won't like is the winter and early spring color. It legitimately looks like dormant bermuda. Couple that with the slow growth rate and you're forced to either wait for new growth to slowly emerge or lower HOC to carefully mow off winter foliage.

It definitely has its merits but, it is not a silver bullet.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@osuturfman 
I can't comment on the water requirements and I can confirm that Scott's did backtrack on the water saving claims at some point from giving a number of water savings to saying less water requirement. 
I typically let my lawn go dormant in the summer heat so I'll be able to report out next year.

That being said, less growth = less water required and also less blade length = less leaf evaporation area. However if you're lowing mow. The 2nd point is moots.

As far as the dormant Bermuda comment, do you have a source ? 
In Michigan we've been hovering between 30-55* the past 2 weeks and the law hasn't changed color except got darker.

Scotts did say what you mentioned that some of the foliage in the spring will have what looks like burnt tips so as long and they're recommendation is to lower the hoc and cut off in spring. 
When this occurs ? Idk... but i remember them saying Spring green up not winter. Time will tell but I doubt it goes dormant like bermuda or zoysia does.... again I'll be able to confirm or deny in the spring.

My neighbors kbg does this thing with the tips.... they had it sodded it couple of years ago, its gotta be midnight or some other dark dark kbg. So the burnt tips might be something inherent to the parent grasses.

The other thing we need to find is if pounding it with N after establishment will push top growth. If we can then this even becomes less of an issue as we can push it then hack it off.

If you reel mow id think its even less of an even of an issue... let it get up to 2" in the fall then drop down in spring and you're ready to roll.


----------



## osuturfman

Thick n Dense said:


> @osuturfman
> I can't comment on the water requirements and I can confirm that Scott's did backtrack on the water saving claims at some point from giving a number of water savings to saying less water requirement.
> I typically let my lawn go dormant in the summer heat so I'll be able to report out next year.
> 
> That being said, less growth = less water required and also less blade length = less leaf evaporation area. However if you're lowing mow. The 2nd point is moots.
> 
> As far as the dormant Bermuda comment, do you have a source ?
> In Michigan we've been hovering between 30-55* the past 2 weeks and the law hasn't changed color except got darker.
> 
> Scotts did say what you mentioned that some of the foliage in the spring will have what looks like burnt tips so as long and they're recommendation is to lower the hoc and cut off in spring.
> When this occurs ? Idk... but i remember them saying Spring green up not winter. Time will tell but I doubt it goes dormant like bermuda or zoysia does.... again I'll be able to confirm or deny in the spring.
> 
> My neighbors kbg does this thing with the tips.... they had it sodded it couple of years ago, its gotta be midnight or some other dark dark kbg. So the burnt tips might be something inherent to the parent grasses.
> 
> The other thing we need to find is if pounding it with N after establishment will push top growth. If we can then this even becomes less of an issue as we can push it then hack it off.
> 
> If you reel mow id think its even less of an even of an issue... let it get up to 2" in the fall then drop down in spring and you're ready to roll.


I would make sure it's got plenty of green tissue going in the spring. It will take about 3-4 weeks for full green up.

I took these photos on March 28, 2019 at the original sod farm they established the Gen 1 and Gen 2 material for sod production. It's about 20 minutes south of Columbus, Ohio. It was not a particularly cold winter and we did not have many prolonged periods of snow cover. The grower confirmed this was a typical aesthetic for early spring.

Again, it's very much like how bermuda greens up in the northern part of the transition zone.


----------



## timmybluegrass

Wow. You weren't exaggerating. That is a crispy french fry color. :lol:

I'm a full climate zone warmer than Columbus here in Maryland so we'll have to see how things look. One thing that is going to appear particularly strange on my property is that I have a 330 foot section in some pretty deep shade that I did not reno to Provista and instead left with shade tolerant TTTF. It stays pretty green all throughout the winter so surely it is going to stick out amid the sea of bermuda-esque brown.

Either way, for better or worse, I think Provista is going to be my grass as long as I live at my current house. I don't know if I have another full renovation in me, especially with a grass that can't be killed with glypho, haha.


----------



## SOLARSUPLEX

So this grass key selling point is its glyphosate resistance, but they did give a metric to the resistance amount, could you not just overload it and still effectively kill it if you needed to? The plus side here is using a standard rate to kill everything in the lawn that is NOT this turf.

I'd still be afraid to fill up a sprayer with glyphosate and blanket spray my yard without the intention of doing a renovation lol.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@SOLARSUPLEX, the number that I have heard - and it was posted by @Sinclair on the first page of this thread - is 256 ounces/a on an annual basis. I have no plans to blanket spray but I did test spray glyphosate on a couple small and relatively inconspicuous triv plants. I'll post the results.

In terms of renovation, I was more just joking. There are certainly herbicides that can kill ProVista and I have a small lawn so if I really wanted to renovate again, I certainly could.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@osuturfman 
Interesting... well see when this color change occurs... I better raise my HOC a bit


----------



## osuturfman

@SOLARSUPLEX @timmybluegrass Their research testing at the Marysville, Ohio HQ included a one time 256 fl oz/A rate of glyphosate. It was dinged up and chlorotic for about 3 weeks and then grew out of it in another 4 weeks. Did not need mowed at all during that time either. For reference, 64 fl oz/A is very high rate. More than enough concentration to take out almost all grasses.

While the glyphosate resistance is a claimed benefit, they need it for breeding. That is the real reason it's there.


----------



## ABC123

Thats crazy. Remember glyphosate was originally a growth regulator and they found out at higher rates that it kills almost anything.


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## Thick n Dense

Got a mow in today, didn't lower my hoc, i want to force a little more spreading by cutting. If it looks dormant in the spring this first year so be it.

I may spay glypho tomorrow As well be in the 70s for a couple more days. I have some weeds and no doubt he bad poa is lurking.

This stuff is gona look gorgeous rolled in next spring. Idk if all kbg is this soft, it's very mallable and is going to rollover nicely.

I was thinking about adding a stiff brush on the front of the time master to lift up the grass before being cut and this thing with the tips give me more of a reason to do so.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@osuturfman 
How is Gly required for breeding ?

Does the stress of gly force the plant to go to seed?


----------



## osuturfman

@Thick n Dense there's a glyphosate-resistant (aka Round Up Ready) gene inserted into the first parent plant. That plant is then crossed with a plant with desirable traits (drought resistance, disease resistance, color, etc.). The cross-pollinated plants are then grown to seed. Those seeds are grown in greenhouse trays for about 4 weeks and then sprayed with glyphosate. Only what's still alive after that are true hybrids of the two parent plants. That's usually maybe 20% of trays that are true hybrids.

From there they take the best 10-20% of the living plants and repeat the process with another plant with desirable characteristics. They repeat these processes over the course of a year or so to produce the final 20 or so plants that will go to outdoor field trials. By that point, there are many times more crosses that have taken place than in traditional plant breeding.

The same process happens in typical grass breeding however, it takes 2-3 years to get to a field trial. Even at that point, those breeders are doing most of their evaluation by qualitative and quantitative measures, not a simple "yes or no" you get with a Round Up Ready gene.

This is a very simplified version but, it's the gist of how glyphosate makes the PV breeding processed significantly faster and more efficient than traditional breeding methods. The claimed benefit is simply a by-product of the technology used the develop the grass in the first place. It sure is nice to have when battling weeds like _Poa annua_, _Poa trivialis_, or quackgrass.


----------



## g-man

Similar to the natural process that makes gly resistant poa annua.


----------



## Dkrem

SOLARSUPLEX said:


> So this grass key selling point is its glyphosate resistance, but they did give a metric to the resistance amount, could you not just overload it and still effectively kill it if you needed to?


There are some photo tests where they sprayed it with something like 10X the normal concentration of gly, maybe more. I found them while searching a while back.


----------



## ABC123

Anybody plant this in the transition zone or further south?


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Dkrem 
Good to know you can't really mess up the Gly rate. 
BUT FYI Do not use a gly product with Diquat ! Pure 41% gly only.

I haven't sprayed yet and contemplated doing it yesterday but with the sun setting around 5-530, I couldn't make it happen.

The manual says don't spray when it's cold out as it can cause injury but mentions nothing about what temperature range that is or how the nightime temps might affect this out come. 
If anyone finds out while contacting Scotts lmk, I'm locked out of the email address with that thread and have been too lazy to reset the password.

Mowed today to chop down some leaves and looks even better than the picture above, I'm very excited for spring.


----------



## timmybluegrass

ABC123 said:


> Anybody plant this in the transition zone or further south?


I'm in the Transition Zone and did a renovation this fall.


----------



## Dkrem

Thick n Dense said:


> @Dkrem
> Good to know you can't really mess up the Gly rate.


I found it, page 10 of the PDF presentation I posted in the first post of this thread. photos of up to 8x normal application amount.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just a quick update... sub freezing on and off for 4 weeks now and no yellowing/whitening of the blades.

It's tough to say how it looks compared to my old lawn because this time of year it was regulated and blitzed with N. 
I did get some N apps in but not as many prior years.

Looking forward to blasting with gly and finally having a uniform lawn... for whatever reason this bugs me the most. 
I would sacrifice certain features to make sure It will all look the same. 
There's a particular problem area that butts up against my neighbors yard where poa seeds get chucked on to my side and I think that bent grass is around as well (could be triv). Their lawn company shoots all that crap over on my side. It's ok ya know but it's a war that I would never be able to win otherwise (and probably only people like us are willing to fight).

Another interesting point is that even in the cold temps, the lawn has barely grown in comparison to the neighbors and it's very apparent.

Lastly - on a side that did not germinate well, a whole bunch of new grass magically appeared... IDK if this is triv, poa, or bent or Provista, we will see next year when I blast with gly but for those of you who do have this stuff, I'd avoid using Pre-em the following season as some more seed may germinate. As we discussed before, it's slow to do so...

Cheers


----------



## timmybluegrass

Despite being 500 miles to the southeast, my ProVista renovation experience really mirrors @Thick n Dense's.

One thing I can say for sure for anyone who might be reading this in the early to mid stages of a future ProVista renovation: _*wait*_ until the following spring to spray glyphosate. I got a little trigger happy - honestly, just didn't think things through like I normally do - and am left with a few small dead spots. None of them are large enough that that they won't fill in next spring, but it always sucks to have to be reminded of your own stupidity each time you walk outside during the winter. 

I have a lot of work on my hands next year. One area of my lawn had forty foot Bradford Pear removed prior to the renovation. A lot of leveling work needs to be done there but obviously I need to be careful so as not to smother the new grass as it is going to be competing with the decomposing tree for nitrogen for some time. To make matters worse the company that did the removal thought they were doing me a favor by putting down some garbage contractor's mix grass seed after they ground down the stump. I called them and they - to their credit - had someone come and try to remove and replace any topsoil that had seed in it but I still ended up with a decent amount of rye and fescue in this area. For any other renovation, this would be a game over-type of situation. For me it is a setback but hopefully one I can overcome with glypho and spring growth.

I have a lot of poa annua and a little triv to handle too; more than I've had during any previous renovation. I think the slow germination and development of ProVista allowed lots of this stuff the opportunity to soak up the sunshine and germinate in the lawn. This could also be a lesson for future ProVista renovations: start as early as you possible can. I seeded on August 25th (and one area on September 6th). If I had it to do all over, I'd seed at least ten days earlier.

All that said, despite the washouts, the unintended seeding, etc. the lawn looks pretty solid. Bluegrass renovations are rarely perfect going into their first winter, after all.



(Quick notes on the picture: this was the area that was seeded on September 6th. The part to the right of the walkway is where the tree was. It was also where I sprayed glypho too early. The picture was taken on November 25th at 9am. HOC is roughly 2" cut with a manual reel mower. Color is better than it looks, I did no adjustments to the picture but it certainly has a more true green color - even in December - and less of the cooked spinach appearance it has in the picture. Also, the stuff on the left is K-31 fescue that is part of a small field that is not my property and is maintained by my HOA).


----------



## themishmosh

This grass can tolerate glyphosate like nobody's business. I wouldn't say you sprayed too early... maybe what died was grass that wasn't ProVista.


----------



## timmybluegrass

While I admit that anything is possible, I really don't think what died was anything other than ProVista. One [helpful] thing about ProVista's slow growth is that any other grass - be it desirable turfgrasses or grassy weeds - is incredibly easy to pick out.


----------



## Thick n Dense

timmybluegrass said:


> Despite being 500 miles to the southeast, my ProVista renovation experience really mirrors @Thick n Dense's.
> 
> One thing I can say for sure for anyone who might be reading this in the early to mid stages of a future ProVista renovation: _*wait*_ until the following spring to spray glyphosate. I got a little trigger happy - honestly, just didn't think things through like I normally do - and am left with a few small dead spots. None of them are large enough that that they won't fill in next spring, but it always sucks to have to be reminded of your own stupidity each time you walk outside during the winter.
> 
> I have a lot of work on my hands next year. One area of my lawn had forty foot Bradford Pear removed prior to the renovation. A lot of leveling work needs to be done there but obviously I need to be careful so as not to smother the new grass as it is going to be competing with the decomposing tree for nitrogen for some time. To make matters worse the company that did the removal thought they were doing me a favor by putting down some garbage contractor's mix grass seed after they ground down the stump. I called them and they - to their credit - had someone come and try to remove and replace any topsoil that had seed in it but I still ended up with a decent amount of rye and fescue in this area. For any other renovation, this would be a game over-type of situation. For me it is a setback but hopefully one I can overcome with glypho and spring growth.
> 
> I have a lot of poa annua and a little triv to handle too; more than I've had during any previous renovation. I think the slow germination and development of ProVista allowed lots of this stuff the opportunity to soak up the sunshine and germinate in the lawn. This could also be a lesson for future ProVista renovations: start as early as you possible can. I seeded on August 25th (and one area on September 6th). If I had it to do all over, I'd seed at least ten days earlier.
> 
> All that said, despite the washouts, the unintended seeding, etc. the lawn looks pretty solid. Bluegrass renovations are rarely perfect going into their first winter, after all.
> 
> 
> 
> (Quick notes on the picture: this was the area that was seeded on September 6th. The part to the right of the walkway is where the tree was. It was also where I sprayed glypho too early. The picture was taken on November 25th at 9am. HOC is roughly 2" cut with a manual reel mower. Color is better than it looks, I did no adjustments to the picture but it certainly has a more true green color - even in December - and less of the cooked spinach appearance it has in the picture. Also, the stuff on the left is K-31 fescue that is part of a small field that is not my property and is maintained by my HOA).


I can visually tell that this is the same grass as mine through the photos... has a uniqueness to it.

Awesome before and after results... can't wait for Spring !!!


----------



## Flick

Thick n Dense said:


> Just a quick update... sub freezing on and off for 4 weeks now and no yellowing/whitening of the blades.
> 
> It's tough to say how it looks compared to my old lawn because this time of year it was regulated and blitzed with N.
> I did get some N apps in but not as many prior years.
> 
> Looking forward to blasting with gly and finally having a uniform lawn... for whatever reason this bugs me the most.
> I would sacrifice certain features to make sure It will all look the same.
> There's a particular problem area that butts up against my neighbors yard where poa seeds get chucked on to my side and I think that bent grass is around as well (could be triv). Their lawn company shoots all that crap over on my side. It's ok ya know but it's a war that I would never be able to win otherwise (and probably only people like us are willing to fight).
> 
> Another interesting point is that even in the cold temps, the lawn has barely grown in comparison to the neighbors and it's very apparent.
> 
> Lastly - on a side that did not germinate well, a whole bunch of new grass magically appeared... IDK if this is triv, poa, or bent or Provista, we will see next year when I blast with gly but for those of you who do have this stuff, I'd avoid using Pre-em the following season as some more seed may germinate. As we discussed before, it's slow to do so...
> 
> Cheers


How has the Provista weathered the winter now that the snow is cleared?

Brown (like Bermuda in dormancy) / Mix of Green and Brown / Reasonably Green

An update picture would be awesome!

Thanks!


----------



## Thick n Dense

Looks exactly the same as fall with the traditional winter damage maybe like only a couple mm worth of damage on the tips. 
Defiantly nothing like those pictures. Must be something with the transition zone.

It said Columbus OH at end of March. Not that much further south and not that too far out either.


----------



## Flick

Thick n Dense said:


> Looks exactly the same as fall with the traditional winter damage maybe like only a couple mm worth of damage on the tips.
> Defiantly nothing like those pictures. Must be something with the transition zone.
> 
> It said Columbus OH at end of March. Not that much further south and not that too far out either.


Thanks for following up. That Bermuda like post was cause for hesitation but it's nice to know that after it's established it keeps a nice color through winter.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Flick

I'd wait it out until Mid April to see if anything changes.

Maybe I oversold it a bit. It's not exactly the same. The color isn't as dark and doesn't pop as much. It's still nicer than all my neighbors by a lot, not even close. It hasn't like green up let's say. But manly doesn't all turn yellow and regrow like Bermuda.

Also. It looked great after the weather went below freezing and stayed. Only after this warm streak did it start to show signs of winter damage prior to green up.


----------



## timmybluegrass

So @g-man asked for a picture and I will try and get to that soon.

But I have had a different experience than @Thick n Dense this winter. Last fall I planted my Provista in two stages: the back went down about a week earlier than the front. The grass in the back stayed reasonably green throughout the winter. The grass up front looks the stuff in Ryan's pictures - it has a very dormant Bermuda look.

The two principle differences between the areas were planting date and wind exposure. The front gets a ton of wind and the wind this winter was very, very cold, at least in the context of the Transition Zone.

I also have a LOT more triv and poa a up front than in the back. I am guessing this is due to the slow germination and growth of Provista and the later planting date up front allowing for more sunshine to germinate poa.

This is going to be an interesting lawn season, for sure.


----------



## Thick n Dense

timmybluegrass said:


> So @g-man asked for a picture and I will try and get to that soon.
> 
> But I have had a different experience than @Thick n Dense this winter. Last fall I planted my Provista in two stages: the back went down about a week earlier than the front. The grass in the back stayed reasonably green throughout the winter. The grass up front looks the stuff in Ryan's pictures - it has a very dormant Bermuda look.
> 
> The two principle differences between the areas were planting date and wind exposure. The front gets a ton of wind and the wind this winter was very, very cold, at least in the context of the Transition Zone.
> 
> I also have a LOT more triv and poa a up front than in the back. I am guessing this is due to the slow germination and growth of Provista and the later planting date up front allowing for more sunshine to germinate poa.
> 
> This is going to be an interesting lawn season, for sure.


@timmybluegrass

The question is when did it turn dormant?

MD is probably 10-15* degrees ahead of me, my theory is that it turns yellow as it heats up.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@Thick n Dense, my ProVista brother, you and I are on this train together, but I think on this small point your suspicions are incorrect. The yellowing/browning I experienced took place in mid-January and stayed that way for about six or seven weeks until temperatures started averaging above 50°F. Since that point - meaning, in simple terms, for the last week or ten days or so - the green has been returning. Along the sidewalk the color is already dark green and the grass is spreading rhizomatously a tiny bit.

I really have no idea why I had the experience that I did. As I wrote in the earlier message the only variables at play were planting date and wind. At least those are the only two I can think of. But neither of those seem to be satisfactory explanations considering you planted the same grass in a much, much colder place and didn't get any browning.

At the end of the day, it looked pretty terrible but other than my wife asking me if the lawn was dead :lol: no one seemed to notice or care. There's not a ton of warm season lawns around me but enough that the ProVista's yellow/brown wasn't particularly remarkable. And personally, while I wasn't thrilled about it, it was January and February in Maryland; even the two or three fescue lawns I handle don't look too hot.

I look forward to comparing notes with you as the season gets rolling!


----------



## g-man

@timmybluegrass pictures?


----------



## Thick n Dense

@timmybluegrass

Do you remember the cultivars on the bag?

I wonder if they gave us different ones based on location.

Probably not, but another interesting variable... the cultivars were completely made up and weren't named anything that exists previously.

I just check the historically weather of this year and it seems like the Jan. weather there is similar to what we just came into up here... interesting.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just an update:

My yard is infested with weeds and looks terrible. 
Ran up to Big Box to look for gly without Diquat and .5G was 75$. checked amazon and 1G is 20$ in different brand so waiting for that to come in.

I plan on taking before and after pictures although I'm a little hesitant because in some area's I don't know what's underneath, that's how thick some infestations of poa and clover have gotten.

The grass itself looks nice and is filling in, some neighbors had mowed 2-3 times already and I haven't touched a single blade. I can't say this is better than traditional Dwarf KBG as my neighbors lawns are old mixes from the 70's. But I think at this point I would have needed at least 1 mow. The think is that it's barely gained any vertical growth. I bet it's still under 2" from the last mow I did in the Fall.
I will continue to monitor.

I threw down a balanced fert at rate of .5 lbs/K, Planning on spoon feeding to encourage spread. Will continue to monitor.

I did NOT get the Yellowing affect like zoysia. Maybe my grass was premature compared to Timmy and it will occur next year.

The area's where there are not weeds does look nice and uniform green color. The color looks different than in the fall, looks more like an alpine green. I think this means that it's not done greening.

An area on side of house that came in poorly appears to have germinated this spring which is great news, I purposely did not put down PRE-M cause I know I can blast away with Gly. This is a potential advantage of seeding in the Fall vs spring which regular seed doesn't have, essiently you have a 2nd window of possible germination.

Another strange note is that the seeds brought in all types of grassy weeds, ones that I have never seen before. Some of it looks like Kale and I want to pluck out of ground and eat... doesn't matter in the long run but something to expect.

I'll keep ya'll posted....

Also, Assuming this all pans out, I'll be getting rid of some of my herbicides. Tenacity, Quinclorac, MSM and potentially t-nex as probably isn't required, send message if interested, bottles are mostly full.


----------



## Belgianbillie

where can you find this kbg thats glypho resistant.


----------



## ABC123

Belgianbillie said:


> where can you find this kbg thats glypho resistant.


You need to message them directly.

https://provistaturf.com/pages/contact-us


----------



## Thick n Dense

So I still need some pictures BUT this grass is cheating. Pure and Simple.

We're in May here and I haven't had to the mow a single time, Maybe it's not growing as vigorously becasuse its not fully established?

I also blasted with Gly 2 weeks ago and it took it like a champ, I can clearly see in a specific area where I missed with my spray. 
This cooked my poa A, Bent and Triv.

It is also spreading very well.

My only concern at this point is the color... the front yard is a different shade then the back and I think that's due to soil conditions, it's also possible that it hasn't fully greened UP OR is still in it's infancy phase and hasn't matured to a darker green color.

I'll grab some pictures but I find it funny that the ongoing triv/poa A battle hasn't been won and all I have to do is go spray some round up until it's gone lol === Cheating

If the color isn't as dark as mazama but it will always be consistent because the gly tolerance, then I'll take that.

If you're not anal and not retired OR have to many hobbies already, this grass is for you.

I'll post some pics soon.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Thick n Dense said:


> So I still need some pictures BUT this grass is cheating. Pure and Simple.
> 
> We're in May here and I haven't had to the mow a single time, Maybe it's not growing as vigorously becasuse its not fully established?
> 
> I also blasted with Gly 2 weeks ago and it took it like a champ, I can clearly see in a specific area where I missed with my spray.
> This cooked my poa A, Bent and Triv.
> 
> It is also spreading very well.
> 
> My only concern at this point is the color... the front yard is a different shade then the back and I think that's due to soil conditions, it's also possible that it hasn't fully greened UP OR is still in it's infancy phase and hasn't matured to a darker green color.
> 
> I'll grab some pictures but I find it funny that the ongoing triv/poa A battle hasn't been won and all I have to do is go spray some round up until it's gone lol === Cheating
> 
> If the color isn't as dark as mazama but it will always be consistent because the gly tolerance, then I'll take that.
> 
> If you're not anal and not retired OR have to many hobbies already, this grass is for you.
> 
> I'll post some pics soon.


I definitely want to see these pics!


----------



## Thick n Dense

Another update, The grass greened up rapidly and responded very well to a balance fert application, which was about a pound/K of N. And the stuff looks great. I mowed at 2.75" and it took off a bit, was probably at 3.25-3.5".

One potential downside is the Seed Stalk height, I mowed at 2.75" and didn't get nearly all the seed stalks or even most of them, I probably only clipped the top bit off. 
I'm not sure if this will continue to be a problem as they did just start showing up within the past week. 
I probably would have lowered the deck more to nab them BUT since it grows so slow, I didn't want really short grass IE 2.0" for various reasons.

But if you'll remember, this grass supposedly turns yellow in spring time which did not happen to me this year, so it makes sense to keep it higher IE 3" going into winter to A.) hack off the yellow B.) take care of the seed heads.

I don't know the reason why growth seem to have just exploded this past 2 weeks and I'll need more testing. 
It would be really cool if it truly responded to the N with vertical growth and will stop without future applications. Meaning, I can control the vertical growth with N apps.

This spring has been very dry and somewhat warm, I can't say it's a typical spring so it's difficult to compare.

I'm debating on whether I should move plugs now or wait until fall, I put down seed in some bare spots but with the rate at which this spreads and thickens up, I think plugs are better so I can put down Pre M. While I can both blast Crab G with RU and QCrac, I'd prefer to just get some Pre-M down, and not worry about that, or any other weeds for that matter. You're situation may be different if you are coming off a well maintained lawn where weed seeds are mostly dead, I had a lot of work done on my yard and know that they are out there.

Pics coming, I'm lazy with them lol. 
Scotts made a couple video's it seems. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp1z3l5j-tM


----------



## CDR

Just read the full thread…That link to the Payne Sod Farm on page 1 in Manteno,IL has gotten a lot of good reviews from people I know. I've looked a few times At the site and the HGT always grabs my eyes.

Did anyone see the HGT bluegrass they offer? It's supposedly very drought tolerant and excellent against traffic.

Has anyone used it?


----------



## Overtaxed

Wow, really interesting thread, thank you. Had no idea there was a RR KBG out there. My goodness would that change the game, instead of a rack of chemicals (some very expensive) to take care of the various lawn issues, you'd be basically down to Roundup and fungicide. Given the most grass is tolerant of 2,4, you could alternate the two and blast just about anything that comes up, including some the really hard to select for grasses (Poa A, Triv, etc).

Wonder if they are working on other RR grasses? I'd never even looked when we did our reno because I had no idea such a thing existed. I'd like some TTTF and CRF and, while I'm chatting with Santa, how about a Texas Bluegrass as well.

My goodness would that simplify (and reduce the cost) of lawn care!


----------



## Belgianbillie

SJ Lawn said:


> I think forum members here "enjoy the mow". Twice a week mowing during peak growing weather conditions is not too troublesome for us.


I think its more the issue of what happens when this grass gets loose on pastures and farmland. Roundup wont kill it.

While i think its pretty amazing, this is a VERY bad idea. I have to believe keeping it as SOD is part of the plan so people dont get to spread the seed willy nilly.


----------



## Jersey_diy

There are plenty of other things that will kill kbg besides roundup....The real problem is with spraying it too much other plants could be come resistant. On the other hand having the round up option would help with weeds that are prodiamine resistant like poa annua.....ying yang


----------



## Thick n Dense

No doubt that some people wouldn't want a grass that reduces the number of mows. I think this depends on demographics, I'm younger and have 30ish years before I'd look forward to mowing twice a week LOL.

You still need Pre-M then spot spray weeds with RU BUT most of us have Quinclorac, 24-D, Tenacity ETC.

I'm no bio-chemist but I'd make the argument that if a plant can become resistant to RU, then it can become resistant to 24-D, Quinclorac ETC.

That being said, after I rid of any triv, rye, old kbg etc, I do not plan on using RU unless an emergency, aka triv, poa and bent.

I just put down 4 bags of milo at bag rate, I have 8K and it's supposed to cover 10k, I'll be watching the spreading and to see how the iron impacts the color.

Also, I think that in the wild, this grass will get out competed, it grows so slow vertically that normal grass will grow above it and shade it out to death.

2 other thoughts, I bet this would be fantastic to reel mow.

2nd thought, if everyone had this, the lawn care business would take a significant hit in business and be far less profitable. Folks may actually mow their own lawns who traditionally never would. We'll see how many times I need to cut the rest of the season, maybe the warmth is really going to accerlate it. We'll see.

I'm genuinely surprised by the lack of people who have this... maybe it's on their radars but waiting for more info. to come out.


----------



## Jersey_diy

What does it cost?


----------



## Dkrem

Jersey_diy said:


> What does it cost?


https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=316973#p316973


----------



## Belgianbillie

Dkrem said:


> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does it cost?
> 
> 
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=316973#p316973
Click to expand...

I received an email from scotts saying they dont sell seed so i would be carefull for someone selling it at such a steep price. My local sod far sells it for 58 cents per roll delivered or 348 dollars per 600sqft pallet.


----------



## Dkrem

Belgianbillie said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> 
> What does it cost?
> 
> 
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=316973#p316973
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I received an email from scotts saying they dont sell seed so i would be carefull for someone selling it at such a steep price. My local sod far sells it for 58 cents per roll delivered or 348 dollars per 600sqft pallet.
Click to expand...

The text in that post is a direct response from Scotts to me at the time of the post.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So we get a break in the weather after Tuesday... going to lower the deck and hack off the seed heads.

The stuff is pretty gorgeous not gona lie... Can't judge darkness because seed heeds are throwing off the color. Seems desirable to me but perhaps not the "darkest".

I'll grab some photos after the mow, she seems ready to strut.

She's definitely thicking up nicely.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I HAD to lower the deck to 1.75" to knock of the seeds and stems.

I have to say that this is probably the 2nd strike against it, well maybe not a strike but an important note.
I'm sure it'll be fine as it's drought tolerant and low mow AND we have cool weather and rain coming up BUT it's like a Bermuda think were it gets stemmy and needs to be scalped. 
The Seed Stalks are indeed thick and hard like a stick. We'll see how long they last. I cant really push any lower with the levelness of my yard.

I took off probably a half inch to get down to 1.75" and had to do 3 passes in total to grind out the material and stems. This is somewhat normal but typically, I don't have to go that low on my old grass to get all the stalks and seeds. So I guess if you're considering this grass and you can mow lower than 2.0" due to scalping issues then it's something to keep in mind.

The 1st strike is the very long germination time that it took for those of you who haven't been following.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just another quick update:

The 1.75" mow was actually good at this state due to the fact that I'm still sorting KBG from other grasses and weeds. 
Since Diquat will kill the Provista, only straight Gly. can be used, which means the dead stuff does not burn down. Lowering the deck to 1.75" will hide the dead stuff a bit more when the grass grows back up to 2.5-3.0".
I'm going to spray a humic & kelp & Molasses mix as I typically due to help break down the seed stalks. I typically do this every year, but seems like I'll keep it in my routine. I think bagging here is ok too but you'll loose that OM back to the soil. 
Something to keep in mind. 
I know we reference RU but really it's only made to handle 41% gly.

I think I'm going to pull the trigger on the Alfalfa pellets to encourage spreading too, some chemical in it acts like a hormorne on the grass, I'm assuming this will work on provista like others. Rate will be 12.5# per K which is 2 bags spread over 8K.

I wonder if the seeds are viable quicker... ya know, if you're developing a grass to propagate and sell with enhanced features so you can sell it, wouldn't you help it propagate while you're at it? 
I signed a waiver stating that I would not spread to any other area's other than my lawn and that's not why I'm pondering this but it would be a nice feature to have the seeds be cut off and help fill in bare spots. So because of this curiosity, I'm not going to put down a Pre-M until Fall this year. I was considering Tenacity as the kbg seeds could still sprout however, some baby grass is already sprouted and don't want to injure that + I'm feeling a tad bit lazy. 
After all, crabgrass, Poa A bent Triv all spread by seeds, how come the desirable grasses seeds need like 4 months and need to be knee high before they can sprout?

I have a couple weird leveled spots near sidewalk which is scalping. Need to debate if I want to fix now or wait until Fall and is more established. My plan was to bust out the aerator and run 4 or so passes and remove the plugs, hopefully this will entice the grass to sink down and level out. I think I'm going to go for it due to the fact that the lawn is still in the sorting and spreading process. Prefer not to drag this into next year if I can. I should have busted out the tiller before reno and leveled properly but I didn't think it would be an issue.

Pictures coming, I was comparing to the last pictures I posted and the grass filled in significantly already. 
Also, I'll be taking some pictures of my Bella Bluegrass plot as well. There's an old thread floating around here somewhere.

I might need a reel mower when this is all said and done cause it seem like the grass likes to be mowed low due to the yellow spring up issues and the low seed heads.

Can anyone confirm that this is the case with a normal dwarf kbg like Midnight? That it's hard to cut the seed heads off without lowering the deck?


----------



## g-man

Any new pictures of the kbg?


----------



## timmybluegrass

So a few thoughts and a picture:

First, color. As you can see in the picture, the color is not amazing. I think both @Thick n Dense were hoping for something Midnight-like and while I can't speak for him, I'm not seeing it. BUT - and this is a hugely significant "but" - the grass you see in the picture has been through an insane spring that included a two week drought and temperatures as high as 97°F. The fescue that you see at left - which belongs to my HOA - is halfway to dormancy. My neighbor's fescue which is not in the picture but is something I personally overseeded with high end TTTF cultivars, is almost completely dormant. I'd say 90% of the lawns in my neighborhood are at least 40% dormant and some look literally shell shocked. Also, because it doesn't make sense to push N or Fe during a time where the grass is just trying to survive, there's been relatively little of anything applied in recent weeks. I thought about waiting to post a picture until after I juiced it up a bit this week - we are in the 70s until Sunday - but it seems like many are eager for pictures.

Second, seed heads. I can't speak to viability - and Im not sure that's a thing in the context of home lawns - but to what I think is @Thick n Dense's larger point, I feel like this grass has been going to seed since the Nixon administration.  And, yes, you need to be mowing low to get them off and, yes, they return almost instantaneously. For a slow growing grass it sure produces seed heads at a rapid pace. You can see them in the picture all over the place and that is a lawn that was mowed at 2" the day before. Obviously this affects the perceived color of the grass and the overall appearance so this long seehead production period might be a deal-breaker for some of you.

Third, fill in. Scotts claims that ProVista takes the energy other KBG cultivars would put into top growth and puts it into rhizomes. In my experience, this seems true. I'll try and pull out a core and take some more pictures soon but this stuff, once mature, shoots out thicker rhizomes faster than the Blue Note or Midnight I had worked with in the past. Again, to be fair, those are the only two KBG cultivars I have planted so I can't compare it to the dozens of others out there.

Fourth, shade tolerance. As of this writing the grass with the darkest color is underneath the tree you see in the picture. This is almost certainly because the shade has provided some relief during the insane weather we've been having. But, surprisingly, at least to me, this grass filled in nicely even in areas with pretty significant shade. This fill in is better than Blue Note or Midnight planted in the same areas in previous years.

Fifth, glyphosate tolerance. While I did pull the trigger too early and spot-applied glypho last fall that knocked out both grassy weeds and ProVista, once mature, this stuff handles gly like a champ. As an experiment I've painted some PV that ended up in a garden bed three times with a mixture that is basically just "pure" 50% gly, some NIS, a pinch of AMS and a splash of water. It looks rough, it is half brown and struggling but is still unquestionably alive. I'll try and take a picture of it soon.

Sixth, Transition Zone viability. It would be insane to draw any conclusions yet as we are just beginning the torture session that is summertime in this part of the world, but with in ground irrigation and some idea what I am doing ( :lol: ) as noted in the first point, I haven't had any issues with dormancy or severe heat stress when all of the tall fescue around me is being cooked to medium well.

Seventh, some final thoughts on the reno process. Honestly, seven billion things went wrong with my reno but it is June 1 and everything has worked itself out. I'm happy to address particular questions if people have them but as I said in previous posts, I'd suggest A LOT of patience. Also, just to add on to what Thick noted, I had not just triv and annua everywhere but also had an array of grasses growing that I'd never seen before. Im almost positive one of them was hard fescue, but in fairness, I never bothered to properly ID it. Very strange and again, ProVista is not a cultivar for those that must have a perfect lawn in the spring following their reno, but it wasn't a huge deal for me.

I hope all this helps. Sorry I haven't had the time to do a Journal. Maybe later this year or next season.


----------



## g-man

At first it sounded like you were describing poa annua (lime green and seedheads). The *single* picture looks alright.


----------



## Thick n Dense

There he is @timmybluegrass

I basically scalped mine like bermuda, had to triple cut but it was around 3.25 inches. Bouncing back like a champ and looks good.
Couple more days I'll have a decent picture once the dead stuff is hidden from the canopy.

The pic Tim posted really gives the grass this light green and almost white hue when the seed heads are around.

I need to do some more testing but, I think that the grass gets darker the taller it gets and not cause theres more blade thus giving that appearance, I think it almost has like a "max growing height" and like PGR treated kbg, we end up with more clorophyll in less leaf. And i think this happens over 3".

I gotta beleive that next year it will generally darken some more like bewitched as its capable of doing so because it did in the fall when temps dropped.

Timmy definitly has a better plot, mine needs to fill in and around the edges.

Theres also the possibility that the grass goes lighter green in the heat instead of going dormant. Which is one of the claims, more drought tolerant. Which I intrepret as "lasting longer before dormancy".


----------



## timmybluegrass

@g-man :lol: Sorry for not posting more pictures. The one I posted isn't a great shot in terms of showing color - it was taken at 8:45am but it was the only one I had in my phone and I saw you asked for pictures and neither Thick nor I had responded. To be honest, one of the main reasons I wanted to plant Provista was because the entire lawn season corresponds with my busiest season at work so while I love mowing, not having to do so as often will give me more time to get fungicide apps down (etc.) when I am insanely pressed for time. Like right now.

@Thick n Dense, yeah, I realize this is not a LOTM of the month lawn but I'm actually pretty happy considering what everything in my county looks like. To say lawns are bombed out would be an understatement. Where things go with color I don't know. It looked pretty dark last fall so I'm thinking a decent amount of this is just the grass' response to temperatures that have ranged from 41-97°F within a matter of days. Is it ever going to look like Midnight or Bluebank or any of the darkest elite KBGs? I'm not sure but I wouldn't bet on it. That said, Midnight suffered in my Transition Zone lawn whereas Blue Note - which isn't known for its color and, frankly, didn't look a lot darker than ProVista - thrived.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@g-man


----------



## Thick n Dense

Pics -
Sees heads up close = white hue you see in timmys pics

A couple of spots of blasted triv/poa - not sure entirely what it was.

Then theres a pic of bad poa lime gren that I'll be blasting soon as a before and after.

Pics taken in morning, looks darker later in the day.

Also note that I took it from over 3" to 1.75" last week.


----------



## g-man

Awesome. Seeing how it looks in real life is great.


----------



## Thick n Dense

g-man said:


> Awesome. Seeing how it looks in real life is great.


Yea, it's definitely a good looking grass with an improved color over regular varieties.

I'd trade the "darkest" of colors for the consistent almost carpet like lawn due to uniformity + the other benefits.

But Cat isn't out of the bag yet, it will darken in cooler weather, We'll see how it looks once it matures more IE next Season.

I'll tell ya what though, with striping this lawn will look great, that's the next step, Front is ready for it I think, back needs some work yet. I can't bust out the striper when it looks like a dog pissed all over the yard ya know. :lol:

Also, My house run E-W and the backside up against the house has a shadow 85% of the year. Grass typically doesn't grow there, My plan is to test the shade tolerance and allow it to creep into my mulch beds, if it's successful, I'll get rid of the beds entirely, this will be another good test.

I may also try PGR later this year for kicks and giggles, I want to check with Scott's though before applying, I don't see why it would be a problem but rather be safe.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just another photo to show the color difference after the rain. Same area. Slightly different angle.

Yesterday: 


Today:



Not sure if its the rain the light or both. 
I swear that this grass gets really green with any rain like clockwork.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Full sun and popping.


----------



## Cook

I'm a TTTF guy for a few reasons; (i) it is more drought tolerant, (ii) it doesn't produce seed heads, (iii) its more disease resistant, and (iv) new cultivars are superior to old fescues. Specifically, I find the new cultivars to be much darker and softer. While not as dark as KBG midnight, nor as soft, I'm willing to give up some of that for the other factors. The main downfall is its inability to self repair and spread like KBG, albeit some new cultivars have some tillering capability, albeit I have no direct experience, yet. When I had a mix with KBG, I didn't like how it was slow to green up, then it would seed (which seemed like forever and gave the grass a white hue), then the seed stalks would die and be very rough to walk on and give the lawn a brown hue. It then struggled in the summer heat before having one full good season (the fall).

That being said, I've always wanted to do a full KBG lawn or perhaps some rye too (mainly because I watch Connor and Ryan), and I'm gearing up for a back yard reno. I'm still researching, but I landed on this forum because of this thread. Being able to glysophate out triv and annua is a dream come true. Unfortunately there are no local suppliers to me with provista anymore. I'm not sure why, but a Rhode Island sod farm no longer carries it. So here I am, living vicariously through you guys. Keep sharing the photos!


----------



## Thick n Dense

Yea I dont know what the deal is with getting this stuff at this time. I feel lucky but I did have to ask for over a year.

At the same time, I'm surprised many here are not on the bandwagon yet.

I watch Connor and hasnt he done a reno 3 years in a row now cause bad poa ?

I think he'd be great to get Pro V. He can reel mow it and show it off... being a rebel it fits. Someone tag him... I dont know his handle.


----------



## Cook

@wardconnor


----------



## timmybluegrass

Applied 5 ounces Urea and 5 ounces AMS per M on June 2nd. Cut at 2" with a rotary at about 11:00am, picture was taken at 12:30pm. Color has improved though it is a little shaggy for a just cut yard but hopefully it will respond better to a push reel mower. Today it is 92°F, tomorrow it will be 96°F. We'll see how things go....


----------



## timmybluegrass

Here's a better picture, taken at 5:00pm yesterday. This is in the backyard which gets a bit of shade. Not much to add. Turf looks nice though not next level exceptional.


----------



## Thick n Dense

timmybluegrass said:


> Here's a better picture, taken at 5:00pm yesterday. This is in the backyard which gets a bit of shade. Not much to add. Turf looks nice though not next level exceptional.


Looks good to me.

What height are you at ? - I think the grass looks darker at a higher height.

Also, consider the height and at least for me drought like conditions, I'd say it's fairing extremely we will see in July for sure.

Mine responded really well to a full rate of milo. Try putting down some more N and iron.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@Thick n Dense, while we are ProVista brothers for life , we live in _entirely_ different worlds.

I'm at 2" now and will probably bump up to 2.5" but any higher than 2.75" and my disease pressure skyrockets.

Also, I'll do small, foliar apps of N (and K) and Fe but I'm not doing full rate apps of anything - even Milo - in these temps and with this humidity. My soil has plenty of P, anyway, so bombing Milo isn't in my future even when it cools off.

At the end of the day, I don't think there is a KBG cultivar - ProVista or otherwise - in the world that is content with summer in the Transition Zone. This is survival time. I have no doubt the grass will make it, it is only a question of how it will look as we turn for home at the end of August.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Quick Update:

We are having an extremely warm AND Dry spring and even going back to the end of winter.

Heat stress is showing up every where in the 'hood. FF's have checked out completely.

The provista is holding it's own, I haven't had to mow since the temps really cranked up. A bit before June 02 was the last mow, pics posted earlier in this thread.

Some signs of stress is occurring but nowhere near the others lawns on the block.

Some Rye that made it through shot up seed heads and towers over the kbg lol. I'll probably need to address in the fall because I'm not going to risk spraying herbicides this time of year when seeing how long it takes to go dormant.

Crabgrass is rearing it's head in spots that haven't grown kbg, which is interesting because I haven't put down Pre-M, seems like the area's with grass is thick enough to keep at bay, it's still early though, well see.


----------



## Green

Cook said:


> I'm a TTTF guy for a few reasons; (i) it is more drought tolerant, (ii) it doesn't produce seed heads, (iii) its more disease resistant, and (iv) new cultivars are superior to old fescues.


Agree on all. Except seedheads. I am mowing through TTTF and TTPR seed stalks right now, in addition to KBG. Not sure why yours doesn't seed.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I haven't mowed since May... Grass is sitting at around 3.5".

This is making it extremely easy to determine what is Protvista and what is not to blast with another round of Gly.

Ryegrass is towering about of spatches.

I'll add to that it's doing a good job of keeping weeds at bay from thick canopy. I didn't not PreM this year.


----------



## sheepfescue

Is this grass ever going to be available as seed? How about as plugs that can be purchased online directly?

Also--all things considered--is there really only a benefit of using this grass variety if it is a mono-stand for the entire lawn?

(sorry if this was answered; I've followed the thread mostly but not the whole thing).

And how is the whole "glyphosate" stigma changing how this is marketed, etc? I saw some random articles (I believe on a financial news service) about how SMG (apparently the USA distributor of Bayer's RoundUp) is/was "embracing" the acknowledgement from some entity that they might need to slowly get away from glyphosate. I only bring this up because the last time I was on the ProVista website, I don't believe the term "glyphosate" was anywhere on the page (although in a few places it did vaguely refer to "easy weed control" or something).


----------



## Thick n Dense

I don't know what's going on with supply.

I bet they removed gly to avoid negative annotation with it.

It's very slow growing, thick, Good "darker" color (not the darkest though and is darker in cooler weather), Very good drought tolerance, aggressive horizontal spread and gly tolerant.

I'd like to see them stop spraying food before worrying about residential lawns IMO. 
It's not advised to use gly all the time but helps in establishment, uniformity and if you get bad POA.

@sheepfescue


----------



## timmybluegrass

@sheepfescue, I don't think either I or @Thick n Dense can speak to availability. From everything I have heard they are limiting it to sod farms right now. I don't know why and have no inside knowledge of how or why Scotts makes the decisions that it does.

I've never heard of KBG plugs being a viable commercial option like they are for warm season grasses. I certainly use plugs to fill in urine spots from my dog and - earlier in the season - places where poa was. That said, as a way of establishing a new lawn, I think they'd be a tough sell and have, at best, a mixed response from the average non-TLF member homeowner.

The benefits of ProVista are largely as Thick described them. I am not thrilled with the color - to me it is average, at best - but the spread is excellent and the reduced mowing and glypho tolerance are real. I would add, just because I think my guy Thick was talking about using glypho the season AFTER renovation when he used the phrase "during establishment", that I killed ProVista with glypho when I applied it a few weeks after emergence. Your mileage may vary.

As for marketing, I can't say I diligently followed it, but as best I remember they were always avoiding the term glyphosate and instead saying things like "it has greater herbicide tolerance." Scotts is a publicly traded company and run by smart people. They know that glyphosate is a scare word and smartly avoid it. I would probably do the same if I were in their shoes. For what it is worth, I have used glypho quite sparingly as I have plenty of selective options.


----------



## CDR

Where are pics from Thick n Dense??

Given he's in Michigan I'm interested to see his lawn, especially with the Midwest heat and drought lately as it's a killer in Illinois.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I had some kill off and I think its from the hoarde of rabbits that live in my bushes. I've witnessed them sitting there gnawing on my lawn for long periods of time.

Note that I have not watered a single time this year.

I think the color is better in the cooler regions. Timmy is in transition zone. 
I would say its "average" for elite variety but fantastic compres to regular grass and is a huge upgrade.





I havent mowed since may. It could use a haircut to level out.


----------



## grumpsterfire

I joined the forum because of this thread. Thanks for sharing your experiences and photos.

I am hoping to do a renovation or partial renovation with provista. It seems like a great option for a newbie or someone who has limited time (I'm a noob with a growing family)



sheepfescue said:


> Is this grass ever going to be available as seed? How about as plugs that can be purchased online directly?


I've heard that seed will be available in "fall 2021". This makes me a little hesitant because the renovation guide here says mid August for seed down I think. I'd hate to go bananas with my reno plan only to find seed available in mid October.

If seed availability is untenable, would it be insane to sod a few 1000sqft plots to use as donor plugs for the rest of the lawn? (I've got 14k sqft of lawn with rocky, clay soil)


----------



## CDR

Thick n Dense said:


> I had some kill off and I think its from the hoarde of rabbits that live in my bushes. I've witnessed them sitting there gnawing on my lawn for long periods of time.
> 
> Note that I have not watered a single time this year.
> 
> I think the color is better in the cooler regions. Timmy is in transition zone.
> I would say its "average" for elite variety but fantastic compres to regular grass and is a huge upgrade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I havent mowed since may. It could use a haircut to level out.


Pretty good looking with the fact 0.0 water besides the rain. I'd love to see it in the July and August heat.

If can stay green with no water then that's nice and a big sell even if it isn't the darkest. Imagine if you actually had sprinklers and threw a bit out there each week.


----------



## timmybluegrass

grumpsterfire said:


> If seed availability is untenable, would it be insane to sod a few 1000sqft plots to use as donor plugs for the rest of the lawn? (I've got 14k sqft of lawn with rocky, clay soil)


Everyone defines insanity differently, but yes, I'd think this would be a pretty insane idea. If your goal with ProVista is less time, this is not a way to get there as you are going to have all kinds of weeds and undesirable grasses pop up while you wait for them to fill in. Yes, you can spray them with glypho but this will be a long process.

Again, ProVista spreads well but it is important to remember this is not Bermuda. It is not even St. Augustine. It is a cool season grass.


----------



## Thick n Dense

timmybluegrass said:


> grumpsterfire said:
> 
> 
> 
> If seed availability is untenable, would it be insane to sod a few 1000sqft plots to use as donor plugs for the rest of the lawn? (I've got 14k sqft of lawn with rocky, clay soil)
> 
> 
> 
> Everyone defines insanity differently, but yes, I'd think this would be a pretty insane idea. If your goal with ProVista is less time, this is not a way to get there as you are going to have all kinds of weeds and undesirable grasses pop up while you wait for them to fill in. Yes, you can spray them with glypho but this will be a long process.
> 
> Again, ProVista spreads well but it is important to remember this is not Bermuda. It is not even St. Augustine. It is a cool season grass.
Click to expand...

Yes this is insane. 
I'd say maybe with a 4000 sq ft lawn. But 14k is insane.

2 years ago I bought some bella bluegrass and had like idk 50 plugs. Spaced apart a foot each and the it still hasnt filled in. This is a different grass but the reasonable plug space with kbg is like 3-4" inches in any direction. Which means a shitload of plugs.

Ill post some more in July and august. Most of my neighbors yards are toasted.

Also, be weary to all do renovations this year. I belive that we're kind of uncharted waters in all regions. Like severe drought, followed by floods, and recored temps. In the mitten, its like weve been in what we consider July all June in terms of temperatures. 
Last year I seeded at the 2nd half of august but the temps dropped off a cliff there after and affected my reno. 
Idk what to expected this year were in the wild west, Id air on the side of caution and trigger the reno earlier to be safe.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Provista vs random rye. No mow since June.


----------



## grumpsterfire

Thanks guys for the really helpful posts. I can put that delusion to bed. I was thinking about what spacing I could talk myself into doing. 4" spacing is a number I won't do.

If I hear a more precise date for seed availability I'll share.

Thanks again for the photos. That picture with the rye is pretty cool and is motivating for me.


----------



## timmybluegrass

Almost to July in the Transition Zone. As has been discussed quite a few times in this thread, @Thick n Dense and I live in entirely different worlds: I am dumping water and the full sun areas are still struggling a little bit. The worst area you see towards the front is a result of a not properly dialed in irrigation system, I fixed that this weekend so we'll see how things recover but the next several days will all be in the mid to upper 90s, so things might get worse before they get better. In the partial shade in the back things are going more smoothly though leaf spot and dollar spot have both shown up at points. Disease resistance on ProVista seems to be what Scotts said it would be: about the same as most cultivars of elite KBG.

(For what it is worth, the area that seems discolored on the right side of the first picture is indeed discolored but that is because there was a 30ft Bradford Pear there until August of last summer. Honestly, I'm pretty pleased with how ProVista has done in that space, but certainly the carbon to nitrogen ratio is getting thrown off by the stump and roots decomposing underground).


----------



## Thick n Dense

After not mowing since May, I finally mowed.
Set to 3.25" and it was charity mow.

At least we know how its drought resistant. It Literally stops growing vertically.

I noticed something peculiar today as well. The new plants newly sprouted through rhizomes have thicker blades. My bella blue grass does this as well. Only happens in the heat... interesting.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So some other thoughts...

I have a long term goal 5-10 years to be reel mowing... no rush. Well 30" reels are very expensive and I think that only Allet makes them. BUT with PV, the reduced mowing makes so going from a 30" deck to 20" deck not that bad ya know?

I always mulch... and since PV grows less, I'm pumping out less clippings for the worms. Curious to see how my soil changes overtime. Its weird that the benefits of PV will still be there but in reality, i'm not improving OM of my soul as much. Idk if this good or bad... could make leaf season more important.

Lastly - for the folks asking questions, all the claims are true except for Shade tolerance and color. 
Color is good but is not wowing like mazama. 
I belive that PV will tolerate shade well, but has not been truly tested yet by myself and I think @timmybluegrass is in the same boat. My backyard faces North and theres a decent shade stripe along the back over hang. I intend to let the grass creep up as close as it can to the house... so the test is coming.

The only other problem that Both Timmy and I had was that the germination time and sprout and pout was painfully slow... worse than what seems like all other elite varieties. Something to keep in mind, not sure if this will change in the next batch.

Also, I havent added iron, pgr or stripped yet. Most photos on this site 99% of the time have at least a striping kit. Im confident that the stripes will pop with PV. With PGR I might be able to mow next in 2022 lol. 
Iron will do what iron does... the point im making is that its like a woman with and without makeup.... the hot instagram post in a sexy bikini hasn't been posted yet :lol:

Edit: another thing to consider is the fact that the color looks great given the heat and lack of water. Like the heat tolerant kbg, giving up some in color to have "color" year round is a tradeoff to decide to live with.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@Thick n Dense, a couple thoughts and responses, ones that speak perhaps to the difference between you being in the heart of the cool season zone and me being in [nearly] the heart of the Transition Zone:

*Drought Tolerance*: I have not seen this. In fact, while it is _far _too early to be drawing conclusions, even about my own lawn, thus far I have found ProVista to be thirstier than the other elite KBG cultivars I have worked with in the past.

*Shade Tolerance*: Here I have seen the opposite as well. The best areas I have in my lawn are in partial shade. They took forever to establish but as the heat of summer has arrived, these spots are deeper and lusher than any of the full sun areas. Will this be true in November? In fairness, probably not. But I am much further south than you and, accordingly, get much more sun.

*Mowing Frequency*: I have found the 50% less mowing claim Scotts makes to be very accurate. But you seem to be on a totally different level. This might be due to differences in N apps, water or other factors. I mow once a week. Due to being busy at work I let things go for two weeks up until yesterday. The lawn wasn't absurdly overgrown but it didn't look great. The edges near the concrete were certainly pretty shabby. And I have not been "throwing down" N; my most recent apps were .2 per thousand on the third and .1 per thousand - mostly slow release - on the thirteenth.

*Striping*: My lawn is very small and I use a manual reel mower or a battery powered rotary neither of which are conducive to striping. But I did do some stripes with a push broom just to test them out and they looked very good. I'll try and do it again and take some pictures for the 4th.

*Potential Dealbreakers*: The establishment thing we have talked a lot about but it is certainly an issue. Related to that is *germination*. I think you and I spoke about this in a private message but I found the germination rate on the seed I used to be very low both in controlled tests last summer and during my reno. I'm hesitant to offer a percentage but I think it might be a low as 50%. The other big one that you didn't mention is *seed heads*. Anyone taking the time to read or post on TLF is presumably pretty serious about their lawn and five to six weeks of constant seed head production is absolutely brutal. The only solution that I found is to mow every day or every other day at a very low height - circa 1.5" - but having that as a requirement makes it difficult to call this a grass that can be infrequently mowed. (For those wondering, Scotts recommends against PGR on ProVista as it combined with the slow growth could make it almost impossible to grow out of disease).

One other thought: *Organic Matter*: This has nothing to do with ProVista but I think the need for organic matter is vastly oversold to homeowners. Most sports turf is planted on sand. It does just fine. I would not stress about this.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@timmybluegrass

This is really interesting now that we've had some time with PV.

I'm wondering if the difference in our practices are yielding different results...

*Fertilizer:*
I've thrown down twice this year, a 20-20-20 in April and a full bag rate of Milo in May. 
I'd say it's about 1.5 lbs of N so far per K. 
How much have you put down this year?

*Water:* 
I think we need to look at water from 2 different angles... I say this because I've been judging on PV's ability to resist going dormant and maintain it's color without water. 
With yours, you've been watering regularly as a committed lawn care specialist would do. 
I think we need to split Water into like "Water amount to maintain color and resist dormancy" and "Water for Maximum Appearance".
Scotts retracted their water claim: initially they said like 50% less water then later changed it to "Less water Input" or something like that removing the Statistical number. From empirical evidence, I found that my lawn hasn't gone dormant in this heat an drought, however it did show signs of heat stress. Maybe this is why... if PV starts to show signs of stress and doesn't look pristine well then it needs water... lol.

*Mowing:*
This leads to wonder why yours needs so much mowing and mine doesn't.... could this be because more N and Water? 
Scotts mentioned that this requires less fertilizer. Maybe the Fert pushes it thus increasing it's water intake requirement and mowing requirement. 
I maintain around 3", I think that your at 2" or lower? 
I'm wondering if the grass grows to a certain height like 3.25" then stops persay. Whereas at 2", it hasn't reached that genetic limit.... 
Or the other option is that the N and water is pushing the growth, where if less N would slow down the rate.

And yea the *Seed heads *were annoying because the only way to get them was to basically scalp because the fact that the seed heads did not grow up above the canopy of the grass... I dropped from 3" to 1.75" after that they didn't grow back. I think Tim stayed at the same height of cut. 
Also the Seed heads were thick and stalky with the thickness off PV and the amount of scalping I needed to triple cut LMAO. Have a sharp Blade! I think next year I will bag at this time.

*Germination* was poor as well but mine wasn't as bad as Tim's Except for 1 BAG. I'd say 70 % germination. 
The bad bag I had was probably like 40% however, the grass did actually end up sprouting in this area the following spring which was odd. I sprayed with Gly and it didn't die so I know that it's PV and not something else.

*Shade Tolerance: 
*I actually 100% agree, with this heat, the best parts of my lawn are parts that get shade. 
What I really meant thought, was 100% shade like next to a building. This is one of Scotts Claims and also one of the problems with 100% KBG Lawns. I gotta believe this is true, they even made a video about this on their YouTube channel... I just haven't tested myself.

It would be nice to have Scotts chime in at this point but for the past couple weeks we've been in similar conditions with the only difference being our maintenance.

Edit: in terms of watering, I do belive that my PV was on its way to dormancy if it wasnt for the rain last weekend. Looks pretty great now. 
Ive never seen a grass so sensitive to water... it perks up almost instantly.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@Thick n Dense, I think our experiences have - in an overall sense - been very similar. The differences between them are largely explained by us having different climates and, as you alluded to a couple times, different approaches to cultural practices.

In terms of *N*, I've actually applied less than you - almost exactly a pound per thousand - though I did so through several more applications as I am an advocate of the so-called spoon feeding approach. I am not a big fan of biosolids though I will use some 5-1-1 in late summer after aeration. When it comes to *mowing*, after reading your post, I think we are probably dealing with similar growth rates but different goals. Especially in the spring I mowed regularly to maintain appearance and to encourage rhizomatous growth. I'll mow a bit less in the summer to avoid stressing the turf but I still want to keep as even and upright an appearance as possible. In terms of HOC I started at 1.5" went up to 2" after seed heads became less of an issue and just a couple days ago bumped to 2.5". I'm going to stay at 2.5" for the rest of the summer and other than going low prior to aeration, might stay around that height on a semi-permanent basis.

For *water*, yeah, I am trying to maintain appearance but also just keep the grass as healthy as it can be. I don't live in KBG country; this is fescue land with some zoysia and bermuda lawns around too. Water is a must. I also think I am have much less organic matter in my soil. This, again, reflects a difference in approach. On a small lawn, I can afford to water more frequently and would prefer the better drainage and overall conditions that I think lower-OM soils provide.

In terms of *shade*, we obviously agree. As a matter of general principle, I think that while you can get KBG to hang on in somewhat deeper shade, getting it to establish from seed there is borderline impossible. I have a 350 sq foot spot that is DEEP shade - maybe 2 hours of dappled sunlight a day. I didn't reno this area and left it as a self-assembled TTTF shade blend; mostly Rowdy with some Rebounder and 4th Millennium. _But_ just above it I have some ProVista that gets maybe an hour more of sunshine and it is doing just perfectly fine. In fact it is probably thicker than the full sun stuff that is suffering in the Maryland heat. While on a scientific level that is just a single anecdote and amounts to nothing, it is impressive, at least to me.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@timmybluegrass

When the weather breaks, you should let it grow out and see if it stops around 3 & 1/4" 
We most know !!! Don't need to keep it long, just for the test.

The Shady spot next to the house that's my test bed, I'm going to be moving plugs and let it creep in... Be interesting to hear from Scotts on whether it can establish in full shade. One interesting element is that because it resists going dormant AND Gly tolerant... Spring seeding is a realistic option. This is important because if you have warm enough weather before the leaves develop a good dormant seeding could establish in what would be a Full shade area under a tree. Then by the time the heat hits, it has some shade being babyish grass still.

For comparisons sake, I do have a clay based Loam out here that holds water well.

Isn't one of your buddys Reeling it low ? Did that ever happen ? haven't heard any updates. I'd love to see a .7" reel pic of PV


----------



## Thick n Dense

:bandit:


----------



## Dkrem

Nutsedge does not enjoy glyphosate. GO!


----------



## RFI

Thanks for sharing the pix and experience with the PV KBG.

Part of me wants to go the sod cut, level, and new PV sod route but the tinkerer side was wondering if a few consecutive seasons of PV KBG overseed (if and when available) into the existing lawn would create enough density allowing me to eventually glyph the old grasses away.

Maybe a small experimental plot would be the way to start.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@RFI, with all respect, that does not sound like a good plan. I have planted at least four (or five?) cultivars of bluegrass on my lawn and helped friends plant at least two or three more. While I am not a seed scientist, I can say that I have _never _seen bluegrass germinate slower or sprout and pout for longer than I did with ProVista. If I were considering overseeding bluegrass ProVista would be the worst option I could think of.


----------



## grumpsterfire

Do you have a sense for how it handles foot traffic?

Also how's it doing now in mid July?

Thanks


----------



## timmybluegrass

@grumpsterfire, tough to say as I am not giving all that much of a test. I do run around in the back with my dog pretty regularly but I haven't had any parties or played any sports on it. It is too hot for that kind of thing. Temps here in the Transition Zone are in the mid to upper 90s basically every day.



Also, here it is in mid July. It doesn't look amazing but it looks about as good as any young bluegrass I've ever had here including things like Mazama. The area pictured is full sun - non-stop all day, every day - and the section to the right had a 35 foot tree removed last fall. The backyard - which is partially shaded - has no signs of heat stress and is a significantly darker color. So is the area that gets some shade from the tree directly to the left of the house. I'm putting down a very generous amount of water and keeping up with fungicide apps.

(Also, I'm not into the domination line silliness but, as a point of reference, you can see my neighbor's yard to the right is starting to check out again and it made up of nearly all elite cultivars of TTTF that I've planted for her over the past couple years. Also, the HOA KY-31 is looking rough in the foreground. Cool season grass in the armpit of America!  )


----------



## Thick n Dense

@grumpsterfire

I don't have a good test on mine either.

I will say that in June where we went like a month without rain and blazing temps that when I walked on it, it just didn't fold over and stay down like some other grass would have. It popped back up. I could see the stress and it took it like a champ. 
( I don't irrigate ).

I'm not sure how much sod costs but for seed it will pay for itself in mowing time and water if you're in the cool season grass zone.

Plus think gas for mower, I probably will do oil changes every 2 years now instead of 1, less whacking less blowing less blade sharpening.

I haven't counted and I should have but I probably mowed 5 or less times this year. 
I'm convinced that the grass slows down vertically the taller it gets.

Also, for what it's worth, the grass blades are very soft to touch under foot. I don't know if this means that they're weaker and would get torn up easily or it's more malleable and can touch more abuse than something more rigid. I would assume this characteristic to be inline with other eKBG's.

There still seems to be a color difference between me and @timmybluegrass either due to the weather, soil and/or maturity level.

I'll post a new picture soon, about to bust out the striper.


----------



## Thick n Dense

timmybluegrass said:


> @RFI, with all respect, that does not sound like a good plan. I have planted at least four (or five?) cultivars of bluegrass on my lawn and helped friends plant at least two or three more. While I am not a seed scientist, I can say that I have _never _seen bluegrass germinate slower or sprout and pout for longer than I did with ProVista. If I were considering overseeding bluegrass ProVista would be the worst option I could think of.


@RFI 
If you want to do something like this go with plugs. 
Still insanity but just wait until your overseed fails then you go to gly your lawn and you have like 10 sq ft out of 10K that's actually PV.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## grumpsterfire

Thanks both of you for sharing! Timmy, that lawn looks great!

Do you guys feel that pre germination and/ or slice seeding would be okay for pv?

I am considering doing both and possibly Harley raking a few days or a week before slice seeding to improve some grading.

I can't find peat moss right now and this seed is expensive.

Might I get away with stretching the seeding rate a little if using a slit seeder? Then add straw and glyphosate any weeds once pv is established.

I observed a washout at a nearby new construction lawn seeding probably due to the recent downpours we've had. Slit seeding looks alot more attractive now after seeing that.


----------



## timmybluegrass

@grumpsterfire

Thanks. I still want to get it looking better but, as things stand, I don't think that can happen until the heat breaks. It has been 95 or above every day for some time now.

To answer your questions:

I did some pre-germination on ProVista and got maybe a day or two quicker emergence but nothing worth talking about. Also, because PV is coated with mefenoxam, you are washing away this potentially crucial fungicide app when you do this. Depending on the temps at time of seeding you might want to spray after you seed if you go this route.

I'm not a big peat moss guy and don't know any professionals that use it. A thin layer of compost is usually what I do though I am also partial to the Lesco Seed Starter 3 which includes a tackifier whenever I am seeding areas with notable slope or just ones prone to washout. You can get this at SiteOne if it is something you want to mess around with.

Slit seeding is another fine way to go. I don't know if I would try and stretch the seeding rate. If anything, I'd go heavier. Hopefully you have better luck than I do but in certain spots I went at nearly 4 pounds per thousand and still have zero overcrowding. My germination rate - both in test pots with grow lights inside and in the real world outside - was mediocre, at best. Your mileage, of course, may vary.

One other helpful bit of advice: I would not glypho weeds until the Spring of 2022. I spot sprayed in mid-November (seed down for me was late August or early September, depending on the area) and I killed ProVista and had to stare at bare spots all winter long which annoyed me. And this was just standard app rate glypho with NIS, no measurement mistake or accidental diquat inclusion. I would hand-pull young poa and just use a basic three way or T-Zone if you need to go after winter broadleaf weeds.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@grumpsterfire

I believe that I had some germinate the spring after the Fall Reno. 
This saved one section that had really poor germination, I'd plan on not putting down Pre-M until June.

I used Peat but Straw is much cheaper and the weeds don't matter. 
Since I own an aerator, I aerated, then busted up the cores with old mower to back fill the holes a bit. This really was to kind of break up the dead grass and bring some soil to the surface. 
And of course no Diquat. Pure Gly only on the kill.

I also ran the 4 wheeler over the yard a bunch of times so that the tires would push the seed down. 
I figured WORST CASE scenario, I'd have patches of grass that represent tire tracks but that would be ok as it would be enough to fill in after a while

I think that Peat is till king though.
Check out the powder Soil Moist.

Since we don't care about disturbing the soil, I believe that renting a scarifier is the best choice to create more seed to soil contact, covering the seed and breaking up dead grass layers.
I would even go as far to say that scarifying, raking up dead grass, dropping seed then scarifying to again to mix it all up is probably the best method. then top dress with straw or peat or a commercial product.

I rented a slit seeder once 4 years ago and didn't like because my yard was to uneven. not saying it won't work but the recommended depth of Kbg is like 1/4" below surface, rule of thumb is the size of the seed.
I found it frustrating and annoying watching it the whole time for that hard to see 1/4" depth. 
I think slit seeders are kind of the worst option Now a days with all the combined info we have on this site to be quite honest unless your yard is flat enough to reel mow.

We had a break in the temps and the grass really darkened up (plus some rain).


----------



## grumpsterfire

Thanks again @timmybluegrass and @Thick n Dense

For folks looking for pv seed; Debuck sod farm will have pv kbg seed this fall. Diane was very nice and answered all my questions.

After seeing the price, though, I'm not willing to take the chance on a reno. Neither my skills nor my plan are mature enough to take on the risk.

I'll try to make my fine fescue nightmare as good as it can be until I can save up for sod or acquire adequate experience for a reno.

I'm looking forward to more PV photos!


----------



## Cook

grumpsterfire said:


> Thanks again @timmybluegrass and @Thick n Dense
> 
> For folks looking for pv seed; Debuck sod farm will have pv kbg seed this fall. Diane was very nice and answered all my questions.
> 
> After seeing the price, though, I'm not willing to take the chance on a reno. Neither my skills nor my plan are mature enough to take on the risk.
> 
> I'll try to make my fine fescue nightmare as good as it can be until I can save up for sod or acquire adequate experience for a reno.
> 
> I'm looking forward to more PV photos!


what are they charging?


----------



## grumpsterfire

@Cook

I'm assuming if they wanted the number posted on the web, they'd post it on their site. So I'll not post it here.

[email protected]


----------



## Thick n Dense

DIY Roller almost done. 
Stripes on next mow .


----------



## timmybluegrass




----------



## CDR

Grass looks great!
Amazing given the weather this year.


----------



## RFI

Thick n Dense said:


> timmybluegrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> @RFI, with all respect, that does not sound like a good plan. I have planted at least four (or five?) cultivars of bluegrass on my lawn and helped friends plant at least two or three more. While I am not a seed scientist, I can say that I have _never _seen bluegrass germinate slower or sprout and pout for longer than I did with ProVista. If I were considering overseeding bluegrass ProVista would be the worst option I could think of.
> 
> 
> 
> @RFI
> If you want to do something like this go with plugs.
> Still insanity but just wait until your overseed fails then you go to gly your lawn and you have like 10 sq ft out of 10K that's actually PV.
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

LOL. Yeah I can see it now - "looks like the PV is doing good - time to blanket with glyph - DOH!" Sod will be the way to go once we get a bunch of exterior work done. Probably a few years out so I'll be living vicariously through this PV forum until then. Congrats and thanks to the early adopters - looking really good and performing as advertised.


----------



## Thick n Dense

RFI said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> timmybluegrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> @RFI, with all respect, that does not sound like a good plan. I have planted at least four (or five?) cultivars of bluegrass on my lawn and helped friends plant at least two or three more. While I am not a seed scientist, I can say that I have _never _seen bluegrass germinate slower or sprout and pout for longer than I did with ProVista. If I were considering overseeding bluegrass ProVista would be the worst option I could think of.
> 
> 
> 
> @RFI
> If you want to do something like this go with plugs.
> Still insanity but just wait until your overseed fails then you go to gly your lawn and you have like 10 sq ft out of 10K that's actually PV.
> 
> :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LOL. Yeah I can see it now - "looks like the PV is doing good - time to blanket with glyph - DOH!" Sod will be the way to go once we get a bunch of exterior work done. Probably a few years out so I'll be living vicariously through this PV forum until then. Congrats and thanks to the early adopters - looking really good and performing as advertised.
Click to expand...

I think what is realistic is to get sod and cut down into strips where tou have like 2" of sod and 2" of dirt. Repeat until the yard is full.

I think youll save exactly half that you would have bought and if done in fall then itll fill in by the following fall.

That being said, not sure howd youd cut and if its even worth that 1 year delta.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just finished a mow, the stuff is dense. 
I mowed at a D on the TM then lowered to an E directly after and it didnt have trouble but it was maxed. I would think that lowering a setting should be doable after the previous setting.

It definitly is growing more with the lesser amount of day ya know entering back i to the cool season growth zone.

Ill be moving plugs this weeks and seeding a bare section

I laid some stripes finally but cant really see them all that well right now, well post some pics tomorrow.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Not compltely happy with the stripes from DIY roller. Need more pressure. I did a checker board pattern and can only see one way. Looking good nonetheless...

I'll probably try a few more photos as the sun moves overhead.

Color doesnt look the best here but I actually blms the sun. Its throwing off different hues. Look at other peoples photos, unless theyre dosing with iron and pgr it has the same white washing affect.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Pulled a bunch of weeds and decided to mulch them in ... lighting ins better now.


----------



## grumpsterfire

Looking good guys! Are you planning to follow the fall nitrogen blitz?

@Thick n Dense I'd love to see how the plugs establish and fill in.

Has anyone attempted to seed pv this season?


----------



## timmybluegrass

I am not doing the blitz, per se, as my lawn has been fully grown in since May, but I certainly push the majority of my N in the fall so I won't be all that far off the blitz's prescriptions.

I am not sure if we talked about ProVista plugs before but as I mentioned to someone earlier in this thread, these plugs work really well for things like dog spots but it is important to remember that while fancy and highly engineered this is still KBG; it isn't Bermuda, or even St. Augustine or Zoysia. If you are hoping for that kind of fill-in, you are going to be really disappointed.

@rmengel JUST put down ProVista seed in Michigan; his journal is up and running. I also FINALLY began a journal. Only six months late. :lol: It covers a lot of the same things I have discussed in this thread but is more centralized and has some pictures and information I haven't posted here.


----------



## CDR

Any new pics?


----------



## timmybluegrass

Plenty on my journal linked to above.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I dont plan on starting a journal.

It made it through the summer wihtout going dormant. A couple spots had issues but about 99% sure there grubs in those 2 areas. 
Definitly a cheat code.

The last bit of my plan is to move plugs around, spray gly, fall pre M, bifen, and grub killer. and attempt to establish a patch under 100% shaded tree area using plugs which all kbg pretty much died under thus far.

I dont plan on posting much more unless something earth shattering happens as it matures, maybe an update of the shade tolerance.

In a couple of years 3-5... I plan on sand leveling and trying Reel mowing. Im sure someone will beat me to it as its really low on the list.

Looking forward to seeing the few people who got their hands on some and their experiences.

Good luck to the new comers... please post something here as I dont check the journal section ever, or at least link to your journal from this thread.


----------



## rmengel

I'm one week out from seed down and have no germination yet (as expected) but I did see some very small (1mm) sproutlings in a couple spots. Still way too early to tell if what I'm seeing is provista or just some old crap that survived the kill off.

I live near Thick n Dense, so I'm expecting a similar experience.

I'll post some night shots tonight if any more sproutlings show up


----------



## Thick n Dense

rmengel said:


> I'm one week out from seed down and have no germination yet (as expected) but I did see some very small (1mm) sproutlings in a couple spots. Still way too early to tell if what I'm seeing is provista or just some old crap that survived the kill off.
> 
> I live near Thick n Dense, so I'm expecting a similar experience.
> 
> I'll post some night shots tonight if any more sproutlings show up


When was seed down?

Yea very cool today... the weather seems to have turned. This is what happened when I did mine. Right on time, middle of Spetember the cool wave rolled in.


----------



## rmengel

@Thick n Dense my seed down was Thursday, September 2. We are at exactly 7 days.

I just went out and checked again. Maybe I'm crazy, (oh wait, I'm on this site) but I think there are considerably more sproutlings than early this morning. Looking forward to some night time photography in a few hours. I really hope this is PV and not yellow nutsedge or something like that... it seems way too early for PV to germinate


----------



## rmengel

Pics are up on my journal: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31770

It helps to click on the image and then zoom in once it opens in a new window. The images embedded in this site are compressed, making it hard to see the baby grass


----------



## Thick n Dense

I have a unexpected update... my lawn is loaded with rust.

My feet are covered in orange when I walk around.

I dont know how long this has been occuring as I havent been outside much. I think the only reason that I noticed was cause the cooler temps bring morning dew.

I had not put down fungicide this year and the PV has done a good job withstanding.

I know this data cant be compared but im pretty sure that with the summer we had, the grass should be dead or have taken a beating. It definitly holds its own agaisnt at least this type of fungus.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Label:



Being pre germ'd, will report on effectiveness.


----------



## Garibdabal

I am new to the forum.
Very informative thread about ProVista!

Does anyone have an idea if ProVista KBG seeds be available in Canada...or how can a Canadian order these seeds? 
I did call Scotts Canada and but could not get any information so any info/clue in this regard would be great.

Thanks


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Garibdabal 
Welcome !

I have no pulse on who or whats avaible.

Ive heard from members here that its in hard to get meaning there isnt much availible and prices are high.

Plus it has been a really crappy year for yield across the spectrum.


----------



## Garibdabal

Thick n Dense said:


> @Garibdabal
> Welcome !
> 
> I have no pulse on who or whats avaible.
> 
> Ive heard from members here that its in hard to get meaning there isnt much availible and prices are high.
> 
> Plus it has been a really crappy year for yield across the spectrum.


Thanks a lot @Thick n Dense

Just called Scotts Canada and was told that due to Canadian regulations ProVista is not available in Canada "yet".
However, got the impression that Scotts are in the approval process but no eta yet.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> Label:
> 
> 
> 
> Being pre germ'd, will report on effectiveness.


So this is funny and explains why germination rate was crap. 
The bag says 61% Pure seed and of that, it has only a 70% germination rate. I'm bad at math but that's almost half.
That kind of says something about how fast this stuff spreads laterally because except for parts that didn't have any viable plants, the lawn was mostly filled in by June the following year.


----------



## ABC123

Are they even selling this seed anymore? are any of you doing any weekly foliar N apps?


----------



## Thick n Dense

ABC123 said:


> Are they even selling this seed anymore? are any of you doing any weekly foliar N apps?


I dont see the need to fertilize. 
No damage from summer, nice thick and green. Only areas with problems had grubs and confirmed by skunks tearing it up. Will most likely plug and hammer with N in the spring in those select spots.


----------



## Thick n Dense

On winter yellowing

Weve had about a month of 15-32* whether consitently with about 2 weeks of snow cover.
Snow has melted a bit and I see some yellow tips popping up but none before this point. It does not appear to be the whole blade but just the tips.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Label:
> 
> 
> 
> Being pre germ'd, will report on effectiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So this is funny and explains why germination rate was crap.
> The bag says 61% Pure seed and of that, it has only a 70% germination rate. I'm bad at math but that's almost half.
> That kind of says something about how fast this stuff spreads laterally because except for parts that didn't have any viable plants, the lawn was mostly filled in by June the following year.
Click to expand...

Hi, Thanks for allowing me to join the group. Very interested in the Provista KBG but a little apprehensive about paying $30.00/pd for seed that is 61% Pure. I know that some of it is a fungicide coating, but what does the remainder of the 39% consist of. Does the recommendation of seeding at 2.5lbs-3lbs take into account the 61% seed?

Thanks for any answers.


----------



## ABC123

I wouldnt worry too much about bluegrass as it can spread rather easily after established and given enough nitrogen. It will spread over time, weed seeds shouldnt be a problem because of the glyphosate resistance of the provista. Its still a new product but i believe it has high hopes, maybe further down the road they can make it a finer leaf.


----------



## dicko1

I think that label is really goofed up. I modified it to what I think its trying to say. Their printer was just having a bad day, thats all.

So pure seed is 85% and 14% is the seed coating.


----------



## Thick n Dense

osuturfman said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @osuturfman
> I can't comment on the water requirements and I can confirm that Scott's did backtrack on the water saving claims at some point from giving a number of water savings to saying less water requirement.
> I typically let my lawn go dormant in the summer heat so I'll be able to report out next year.
> 
> That being said, less growth = less water required and also less blade length = less leaf evaporation area. However if you're lowing mow. The 2nd point is moots.
> 
> As far as the dormant Bermuda comment, do you have a source ?
> In Michigan we've been hovering between 30-55* the past 2 weeks and the law hasn't changed color except got darker.
> 
> Scotts did say what you mentioned that some of the foliage in the spring will have what looks like burnt tips so as long and they're recommendation is to lower the hoc and cut off in spring.
> When this occurs ? Idk... but i remember them saying Spring green up not winter. Time will tell but I doubt it goes dormant like bermuda or zoysia does.... again I'll be able to confirm or deny in the spring.
> 
> My neighbors kbg does this thing with the tips.... they had it sodded it couple of years ago, its gotta be midnight or some other dark dark kbg. So the burnt tips might be something inherent to the parent grasses.
> 
> The other thing we need to find is if pounding it with N after establishment will push top growth. If we can then this even becomes less of an issue as we can push it then hack it off.
> 
> If you reel mow id think its even less of an even of an issue... let it get up to 2" in the fall then drop down in spring and you're ready to roll.
> 
> 
> 
> I would make sure it's got plenty of green tissue going in the spring. It will take about 3-4 weeks for full green up.
> 
> I took these photos on March 28, 2019 at the original sod farm they established the Gen 1 and Gen 2 material for sod production. It's about 20 minutes south of Columbus, Ohio. It was not a particularly cold winter and we did not have many prolonged periods of snow cover. The grower confirmed this was a typical aesthetic for early spring.
> 
> Again, it's very much like how bermuda greens up in the northern part of the transition zone.
Click to expand...

We haven't quite hit the spring warm up yet although we've had a slight break in the cold and the days started getting longer. 
Something unexplainable is happening where the backyard is starting this yellowing affect and the front yard looks fantastic. 
I have no explanation for why this is happening.

The grass tips aren't quite as bad as this picture shows and it's not anyworse than any lawn in the neighborhood that's damage from snow and dormant.

Warm up isn't in full swing yet and I'll continue to monitor.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @osuturfman
> I can't comment on the water requirements and I can confirm that Scott's did backtrack on the water saving claims at some point from giving a number of water savings to saying less water requirement.
> I typically let my lawn go dormant in the summer heat so I'll be able to report out next year.
> 
> That being said, less growth = less water required and also less blade length = less leaf evaporation area. However if you're lowing mow. The 2nd point is moots.
> 
> As far as the dormant Bermuda comment, do you have a source ?
> In Michigan we've been hovering between 30-55* the past 2 weeks and the law hasn't changed color except got darker.
> 
> Scotts did say what you mentioned that some of the foliage in the spring will have what looks like burnt tips so as long and they're recommendation is to lower the hoc and cut off in spring.
> When this occurs ? Idk... but i remember them saying Spring green up not winter. Time will tell but I doubt it goes dormant like bermuda or zoysia does.... again I'll be able to confirm or deny in the spring.
> 
> My neighbors kbg does this thing with the tips.... they had it sodded it couple of years ago, its gotta be midnight or some other dark dark kbg. So the burnt tips might be something inherent to the parent grasses.
> 
> The other thing we need to find is if pounding it with N after establishment will push top growth. If we can then this even becomes less of an issue as we can push it then hack it off.
> 
> If you reel mow id think its even less of an even of an issue... let it get up to 2" in the fall then drop down in spring and you're ready to roll.
> 
> 
> 
> I would make sure it's got plenty of green tissue going in the spring. It will take about 3-4 weeks for full green up.
> 
> I took these photos on March 28, 2019 at the original sod farm they established the Gen 1 and Gen 2 material for sod production. It's about 20 minutes south of Columbus, Ohio. It was not a particularly cold winter and we did not have many prolonged periods of snow cover. The grower confirmed this was a typical aesthetic for early spring.
> 
> Again, it's very much like how bermuda greens up in the northern part of the transition zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We haven't quite hit the spring warm up yet although we've had a slight break in the cold and the days started getting longer.
> Something unexplainable is happening where the backyard is starting this yellowing affect and the front yard looks fantastic.
> I have no explanation for why this is happening.
> 
> The grass tips aren't quite as bad as this picture shows and it's not anyworse than any lawn in the neighborhood that's damage from snow and dormant.
> 
> Warm up isn't in full swing yet and I'll continue to monitor.
Click to expand...

Do you think it could be some type of insect damage?


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would make sure it's got plenty of green tissue going in the spring. It will take about 3-4 weeks for full green up.
> 
> I took these photos on March 28, 2019 at the original sod farm they established the Gen 1 and Gen 2 material for sod production. It's about 20 minutes south of Columbus, Ohio. It was not a particularly cold winter and we did not have many prolonged periods of snow cover. The grower confirmed this was a typical aesthetic for early spring.
> 
> Again, it's very much like how bermuda greens up in the northern part of the transition zone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We haven't quite hit the spring warm up yet although we've had a slight break in the cold and the days started getting longer.
> Something unexplainable is happening where the backyard is starting this yellowing affect and the front yard looks fantastic.
> I have no explanation for why this is happening.
> 
> The grass tips aren't quite as bad as this picture shows and it's not anyworse than any lawn in the neighborhood that's damage from snow and dormant.
> 
> Warm up isn't in full swing yet and I'll continue to monitor.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think it could be some type of insect damage?
Click to expand...

It's not possible for it to be insect damage. Unless they hide in the snow and do their thing in freezing temps :lol: 
It was looking good up until snowfall > Snow covered for IDK like 30's days in total since Christmas, maybe more.

The only possible explanation is that it gets slightly more sunlight due to the orientation of the sun and the trees of the neighborhood. 
Plus the house itself blocks the early morning and evening lights.

The discoloration is fairly uniform across as well... insect damage is typically in patches.

Gents - I'm ready to mow, every think about a super warm March !!! Manifest it into Reality !!! :bandit: :bandit: :bandit:


----------



## rmengel

Checking in here since I did a reno this past fall, seed down labor day IIRC.

It came in decent-ish, considering the late seed down. Theres a strip along the south sidewalk on my (corner) property that didn't do great, but it's only about 30x6' and I'm going to re-seed.

As for the area of my yard that got PV sod, it's looking pretty good.

If the monthly forecast in my area (same as Thick n Dense) is to be trusted, our last deep freeze risk of the season is March 30 (overnight 24F), so I'll likely do seed down the following morning.

This will be fun to experiment with since there is already very thin PV in this area that should start to spread, plus any weeds that do come up can be spot treated and/or blanket sprayed with gly once the grass matures some time around late July.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So coming into the 2nd spring and temps here have been quite cold.
Neighbors no name mixes are looking better right now as the PV is taking a but longer to perk up.
However its worth the slow green up for when the heat starts cranking.

On thing I realized is that PV isnt for anyone because due to the extreme retarded growth. Id the owner is not capabale of removing other grasses with gly. Then it will look so bad and not blend at all.
I guess it could be possible to have trugreen or someone do a gly. Application but is not the norm obviously.

Other issue i have is the ongoing rabbit feeding cycles. Again the grass doesnt grow fast enough to outcompete the rabbits eating it.


----------



## critterdude311

Thick n Dense said:


> So coming into the 2nd spring and temps here have been quite cold.
> Neighbors no name mixes are looking better right now as the PV is taking a but longer to perk up.
> However its worth the slow green up for when the heat starts cranking.
> 
> On thing I realized is that PV isnt for anyone because due to the extreme retarded growth. Id the owner is not capabale of removing other grasses with gly. Then it will look so bad and not blend at all.
> I guess it could be possible to have trugreen or someone do a gly. Application but is not the norm obviously.
> 
> Other issue i have is the ongoing rabbit feeding cycles. Again the grass doesnt grow fast enough to outcompete the rabbits eating it.


If you hit the ProVista KBG with nitrogen how does it respond? Do you get a "normal" rate of top growth with the extra nitrogen hit?


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> So coming into the 2nd spring and temps here have been quite cold.
> Neighbors no name mixes are looking better right now as the PV is taking a but longer to perk up.
> However its worth the slow green up for when the heat starts cranking.
> 
> On thing I realized is that PV isnt for anyone because due to the extreme retarded growth. Id the owner is not capabale of removing other grasses with gly. Then it will look so bad and not blend at all.
> I guess it could be possible to have trugreen or someone do a gly. Application but is not the norm obviously.
> 
> Other issue i have is the ongoing rabbit feeding cycles. Again the grass doesnt grow fast enough to outcompete the rabbits eating it.


@Thick And Dense,

Any Regrets in going with the Provista? I picked up 20lbs of it with thoughts of doing a complete renovation, but a little unsure now. Lawn is a mixture of tttf and 365ss kbg, and it looks really good. I was hoping that the Provista would be a nicer, mor durable grass. I was going to reno my entire backyard this spring, but decided to only do a strip that is 3ft x 12ft at this time to see how it turns out.

I'm noticing something germinating after 5 days, and I'm thinking that can't be the Provista, but that area has been bare for over 1 month, and was sprayed killed twice.

I'm hoping that my little strip of Provista does well, or I will end up selling close to 20lbs of it. Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> So coming into the 2nd spring and temps here have been quite cold.
> Neighbors no name mixes are looking better right now as the PV is taking a but longer to perk up.
> However its worth the slow green up for when the heat starts cranking.
> 
> On thing I realized is that PV isnt for anyone because due to the extreme retarded growth. Id the owner is not capabale of removing other grasses with gly. Then it will look so bad and not blend at all.
> I guess it could be possible to have trugreen or someone do a gly. Application but is not the norm obviously.
> 
> Other issue i have is the ongoing rabbit feeding cycles. Again the grass doesnt grow fast enough to outcompete the rabbits eating it.
> 
> 
> 
> @Thick And Dense,
> 
> Any Regrets in going with the Provista? I picked up 20lbs of it with thoughts of doing a complete renovation, but a little unsure now. Lawn is a mixture of tttf and 365ss kbg, and it looks really good. I was hoping that the Provista would be a nicer, mor durable grass. I was going to reno my entire backyard this spring, but decided to only do a strip that is 3ft x 12ft at this time to see how it turns out.
> 
> I'm noticing something germinating after 5 days, and I'm thinking that can't be the Provista, but that area has been bare for over 1 month, and was sprayed killed twice.
> 
> I'm hoping that my little strip of Provista does well, or I will end up selling close to 20lbs of it. Thanks for keeping us updated on your progress.
Click to expand...

Regret is a strong word. 
Some un-organized thoughts:

I think the word is out that Glyphosate's direct exposure causes cancer, there must have been some court case that proved it... speculation, IDK.
I say this because Scotts removed it from it's marketing on PV or kind of "hid it". 
I typically still use a respirator and full covering but still makes me a bit uneasy about using it. My opinion on this has changed a bit since I ordered seed 2 years ago.

If I miss my Pre-M the weeds grow so much taller, that I can't just mow it down like a no mix. I have to Gly or use regular herbicides at that point. and Pre-M .
Before I could just be lazy and if I missed spring Prem, I could just cut and as long as I got prem down by crabgrass time, then I was good.

The color is "real good" but it's not top tier.
Check the posts in here about the Shade vs non shade pictures.
I have not done any Iron apps and also, i'm on Spring #2... some kbg darkens as it matures. 
Iron apps probably will last twice as long due to the retarted growth factor. 
But it's also possible that it hasn't matured yet or it's iron deficient as I haven't supplied iron since reno'ing.

But the grass is as advertised.

Count how many Poa Threads are on this forum... It's worth sacrificing the "Top notch color" for a uniform textured and Poa Free lawn that beats hot summers with minimal water input.

Since the the growth is much slower, I wonder about the grass clippings that supply the microbes in the soil. 
To me, over time, there will be much less clippings. 
But there's still the root cycling affect.

I guess the last difference is that I'm not mowing every Saturday, it was routine and kind of miss it but I'm a busy guy. 
Someone said here that they won't like PV 'cause of this... No offense but if your kids are grown and you're an old retired person whose highlight of the week is to mow, we'll this will definility impact that.


----------



## desmorider804

Man, This grass is a challenge to grow. I have bags of seed in hopes to reno my lawn. I decided to do a small test strip about 3' x 12'. Cleared the area, put a thin layer of Scotts lawn soil, seeded, and raked seed in. The Scotts lawn soil contains starter fert. After two weeks baby grass has started poking through. The strange thing is that the baby grass pokes through but seems to turn brown and die within 2 days. I don't know what's going on with it, I'm keeping it moist and watering it 3 times per day for 5 minutes per cycle, and it's not thriving. Any thoughts? Central VA. for reference.


----------



## Green

Everyone,

Is Scotts still allowing seed to be sold to end users? Or just sod?


----------



## Green

@Thick n Dense, according to the guys on burn and return, the gly-cancer link is not verified scientifically. There is not sufficient evidence to show a cause and effect. Most of the negative stuff is currently still coming from unscientific sources, or those ignoring evidence or cherry picking studies, according to the guys' summaries of different sources that pop up in the news over the past year or two.

That said, it's not innocuous by any means. Definitely wear your respirator, goggles, gloves, and proper clothing, as you say. It's not supposed to get on skin or be inhaled. It's "safer" than some other things we use, though.

As far as Scotts removing it from some listings, I think this has more to do with their commitment to remove it from the residential market by next year, than with anything else. And that was spurred by class action lawsuits, some of which were powered by people who likely didn't use proper PPE. It bugs me to see a commercial with a guy wearing shorts using it, even today. They must want you to think there's no special protection needed, even clothing. Or they think people would think it was weird to see someone with gloves on in a commercial, I guess. Because, hey, as a casual homeowner, you're not supposed to have to ever use anything than shorts and sneakers for any task, right? Because they portray themselves as too cool to use PPE.

Not intending to stray from the thread topic or detract from the conversation! Everything you wrote about the grass above sounds good!


----------



## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense, according to the guys on burn and return, the gly-cancer link is not verified scientifically. There is not sufficient evidence to show a cause and effect. Most of the negative stuff is currently still coming from unscientific sources, or those ignoring evidence or cherry picking studies, according to the guys' summaries of different sources that pop up in the news over the past year or two.
> 
> That said, it's not innocuous by any means. Definitely wear your respirator, goggles, gloves, and proper clothing, as you say. It's not supposed to get on skin or be inhaled. It's "safer" than some other things we use, though.
> 
> As far as Scotts removing it from some listings, I think this has more to do with their commitment to remove it from the residential market by next year, than with anything else. And that was spurred by class action lawsuits, some of which were powered by people who likely didn't use proper PPE. It bugs me to see a commercial with a guy wearing shorts using it, even today. They must want you to think there's no special protection needed, even clothing. Or they think people would think it was weird to see someone with gloves on in a commercial, I guess. Because, hey, as a casual homeowner, you're not supposed to have to ever use anything than shorts and sneakers for any task, right? Because they portray themselves as too cool to use PPE.
> 
> Not intending to stray from the thread topic or detract from the conversation! Everything you wrote about the grass above sounds good!


What I meant was the fact that court cases have been won establishing that causality between uses and cancer. 
We probably we never see anything scientific that proves this.


----------



## desmorider804

Green said:


> Everyone,
> 
> Is Scotts still allowing seed to be sold to end users? Or just sod?


Yes, still sold.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Man, This grass is a challenge to grow. I have bags of seed in hopes to reno my lawn. I decided to do a small test strip about 3' x 12'. Cleared the area, put a thin layer of Scotts lawn soil, seeded, and raked seed in. The Scotts lawn soil contains starter fert. After two weeks baby grass has started poking through. The strange thing is that the baby grass pokes through but seems to turn brown and die within 2 days. I don't know what's going on with it, I'm keeping it moist and watering it 3 times per day for 5 minutes per cycle, and it's not thriving. Any thoughts? Central VA. for reference.


I dont know how the weather is in VA but i planted seed last november abd havent watered very much and relied on rainfall and mositure.

Ive never had any seed die after germination.

I reccombed watering once per day or removing entirely assuming the soil is retaining some moisture... it sounds like a fungus problem but again I had no issues with sprouts dying .


----------



## Clamman

desmorider804 said:


> Man, This grass is a challenge to grow. I have bags of seed in hopes to reno my lawn. I decided to do a small test strip about 3' x 12'. Cleared the area, put a thin layer of Scotts lawn soil, seeded, and raked seed in. The Scotts lawn soil contains starter fert. After two weeks baby grass has started poking through. The strange thing is that the baby grass pokes through but seems to turn brown and die within 2 days. I don't know what's going on with it, I'm keeping it moist and watering it 3 times per day for 5 minutes per cycle, and it's not thriving. Any thoughts? Central VA. for reference.


Cleared the area…as in how though?


----------



## ABC123

Just got this email today. Anybody looking for seed should reach out to him.


----------



## Thick n Dense




----------



## desmorider804

Clamman said:


> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man, This grass is a challenge to grow. I have bags of seed in hopes to reno my lawn. I decided to do a small test strip about 3' x 12'. Cleared the area, put a thin layer of Scotts lawn soil, seeded, and raked seed in. The Scotts lawn soil contains starter fert. After two weeks baby grass has started poking through. The strange thing is that the baby grass pokes through but seems to turn brown and die within 2 days. I don't know what's going on with it, I'm keeping it moist and watering it 3 times per day for 5 minutes per cycle, and it's not thriving. Any thoughts? Central VA. for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> Cleared the area…as in how though?
Click to expand...

Glyphosate once, waited 2 weeks. Glyphosate a second time and confirmed everything dead. Raked area and then applied topsoil with starter fertilizer in it.


----------



## Dcaf214

Thick n Dense,

What is your post today at 1:13 showing? I just see the pic with no post? Is this ProVista KBG?

Thanks


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Not to get off the *** subject but do you think Scott's or anyone else would ever come up with a TTTF cultivar that would have the gly benefits and better color?


----------



## Thick n Dense

Dcaf214 said:


> Thick n Dense,
> 
> What is your post today at 1:13 showing? I just see the pic with no post? Is this ProVista KBG?
> 
> Thanks


Yes.
Poa got blasted.


----------



## Green

@Thick n Dense

As far as the Scotts/Bayer glyphosate situation is concerned, have you seen this letter yet? I'm not sure when it was posted as there is no date:

------------------



> _*A message from ScottsMiracle-Gro on glyphosate
> 
> To gardeners everywhere,
> 
> We understand the rules of business have changed and that you expect more from the companies you do business with than simply providing a good product at a fair price. You expect transparency. You expect honesty. You expect leadership. The companies that deliver on these expectations are rewarded with a priceless gift: Your trust.
> 
> At ScottsMiracle-Gro, we are proud to have earned the trust of generations of consumers. It's not something we take for granted. In fact, on the wall of my office hangs the notes from the retirement speech given by my father, Horace, who founded Miracle-Gro in 1951. In it, he said Miracle-Gro had become one of the world's most beloved brands because it was considered a "trusted friend" by gardeners everywhere.
> 
> Indeed, trust is the cornerstone of our relationship with the millions of consumers who use our products every year.
> 
> Many of you know our company serves as the marketing agent for Roundup®, a non-selective weed control product owned by the German company, Bayer. We do not own the Roundup® brand but distribute the product to retailers for sale to consumers. We have served in this capacity since 1998. You may also know that Bayer remains engaged in litigation from consumers who allege Roundup and its active ingredient, glyphosate, caused their cancer.
> 
> While Bayer has settled tens of thousands of cases so far, it remains engaged in court proceedings related to the possibility of future litigation. From the outset of these allegations, Bayer has stood by the safety of Roundup and glyphosate. We agree with their assessment based on the weight of regulatory findings, published studies, and assessments by our own internal and outside scientists who we asked to study the issue. If we didn't believe Roundup was safe to be used as intended, we would not represent the product in the marketplace for Bayer or anyone else.
> 
> While we are confident in our view, we don't pretend to speak for you and want to help you make an informed decision. That's why we provide access on our website to the unedited report that asserts glyphosate is a probable carcinogen, along with several regulatory reports disputing that report's conclusion.
> 
> Recently, Bayer has announced it wants to engage in conversations with ScottsMiracle-Gro about the potential to replace glyphosate with other active ingredients for the consumer Roundup product line-up. We welcome that discussion and believe there are several available options that Bayer can pursue.
> 
> In fact, ScottsMiracle-Gro no longer offers glyphosate in the brands that we own, a decision we made in 2018. We know consumers sometimes have questions and concerns about the products they use around their home and the lawn and garden industry is not immune from that fact. That's why we developed a full range of non-selective weed control products under the Ortho® GroundClear® brand that provide consumers with a non-glyphosate alternative.
> 
> Trust is a two-way street. We believe our consumers trust us and we, in turn, trust them. That's why we're not afraid to provide a list of active ingredients on our website. Why we're are not afraid to reach out to our critics. Why we're not afraid to make changes to our products when we deem it necessary. And why we're not afraid to take a stance on the issues that define our time.
> 
> I'm not sure who will lead our company a generation from now. But I do know I will share with that person the notes that my father gave to me. And decades from now, I am confident The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company will continue to be defined by two simple words: "Trusted friend."
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jim Hagedorn
> Chairman & CEO*_


Link: https://scottsmiraclegro.com/products/a-message-from-our-ceo-on-glyphosate/

-------------


----------



## ABC123

But gly/roundup is just a growth regulator at a high concentration. Could they just use other growth regulators instead?


----------



## Green

ABC123 said:


> But gly/roundup is just a growth regulator at a high concentration. Could they just use other growth regulators instead?


@ABC123, I get your point, but I'm not sure I get your question...

Are you asking: Could Bayer market a turf growth regulator as a nonselective vegetation killer?

Or: Could Scotts market a growth regulator as a glyphosate alternative for use on Provista grasses?

Or were you asking something else? In any case it's clear they are researching alternative chemistries.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense
> 
> As far as the Scotts/Bayer glyphosate situation is concerned, have you seen this letter yet? I'm not sure when it was posted as there is no date:
> 
> ------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _*A message from ScottsMiracle-Gro on glyphosate
> 
> To gardeners everywhere,
> 
> We understand the rules of business have changed and that you expect more from the companies you do business with than simply providing a good product at a fair price. You expect transparency. You expect honesty. You expect leadership. The companies that deliver on these expectations are rewarded with a priceless gift: Your trust.
> 
> At ScottsMiracle-Gro, we are proud to have earned the trust of generations of consumers. It's not something we take for granted. In fact, on the wall of my office hangs the notes from the retirement speech given by my father, Horace, who founded Miracle-Gro in 1951. In it, he said Miracle-Gro had become one of the world's most beloved brands because it was considered a "trusted friend" by gardeners everywhere.
> 
> Indeed, trust is the cornerstone of our relationship with the millions of consumers who use our products every year.
> 
> Many of you know our company serves as the marketing agent for Roundup®, a non-selective weed control product owned by the German company, Bayer. We do not own the Roundup® brand but distribute the product to retailers for sale to consumers. We have served in this capacity since 1998. You may also know that Bayer remains engaged in litigation from consumers who allege Roundup and its active ingredient, glyphosate, caused their cancer.
> 
> While Bayer has settled tens of thousands of cases so far, it remains engaged in court proceedings related to the possibility of future litigation. From the outset of these allegations, Bayer has stood by the safety of Roundup and glyphosate. We agree with their assessment based on the weight of regulatory findings, published studies, and assessments by our own internal and outside scientists who we asked to study the issue. If we didn't believe Roundup was safe to be used as intended, we would not represent the product in the marketplace for Bayer or anyone else.
> 
> While we are confident in our view, we don't pretend to speak for you and want to help you make an informed decision. That's why we provide access on our website to the unedited report that asserts glyphosate is a probable carcinogen, along with several regulatory reports disputing that report's conclusion.
> 
> Recently, Bayer has announced it wants to engage in conversations with ScottsMiracle-Gro about the potential to replace glyphosate with other active ingredients for the consumer Roundup product line-up. We welcome that discussion and believe there are several available options that Bayer can pursue.
> 
> In fact, ScottsMiracle-Gro no longer offers glyphosate in the brands that we own, a decision we made in 2018. We know consumers sometimes have questions and concerns about the products they use around their home and the lawn and garden industry is not immune from that fact. That's why we developed a full range of non-selective weed control products under the Ortho® GroundClear® brand that provide consumers with a non-glyphosate alternative.
> 
> Trust is a two-way street. We believe our consumers trust us and we, in turn, trust them. That's why we're not afraid to provide a list of active ingredients on our website. Why we're are not afraid to reach out to our critics. Why we're not afraid to make changes to our products when we deem it necessary. And why we're not afraid to take a stance on the issues that define our time.
> 
> I'm not sure who will lead our company a generation from now. But I do know I will share with that person the notes that my father gave to me. And decades from now, I am confident The Scotts Miracle-Gro Company will continue to be defined by two simple words: "Trusted friend."
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jim Hagedorn
> Chairman & CEO*_
> 
> 
> 
> Link: https://scottsmiraclegro.com/products/a-message-from-our-ceo-on-glyphosate/
> 
> -------------
Click to expand...

This is PR fluff.

Litigation typically means settling cases wirhout a rulling in means of basically paying off the plantiff to drop thier case thus saving the companines reputation.

But anyone who thinks gly does not cause cancer is a nutcase especially in a world where literally everything causes cancer.

There's elaborate systems in place to ensure that evidence of this (or anything) does bot reach the public thus the litigation and censorship on socials.

I'm pretty sure that dicamba and 2,4d also causes cancer so why would glyphosate not.

Actions speak louder than words.

Theyre also trying to hide the fact that all gmo food is blasted with roundup and we consume a crap load if it every year. 
This causes "leaky gut syndrome" which then leads to a host of other ailments.

Glyphostae binds to either the lysine receptors or the glycine receptors (dont remember exactly) in your body and wrecks havoc evn if it does not cause cancer.


----------



## ABC123

I was just saying for alternative products.

So how much Gly is found in corn?


----------



## Thick n Dense

So the grass really just started growing in the pst 10 days with the increase of temps.
Keep in mind that the mitten is one of the last places to warm up in the US.

I think I stated this last year but I made the same mistake.
I put pre-M down late and while I was able to kill all the weeds the process is slow and wverything turns yellow.
Without diquat in the formula, which is a burn down angent the persistannce of the dead weeds is around month until it gets gobbled up from the biome.

It is not ideal to skip pre M because of this.
Im not happy that I made this mistake twice

I did zap a bunch of poa A and that felt good to not worry a out it seeding


----------



## Thick n Dense

So I'm not 100% sure yet but I think provista might be able to spread via stolons.

I say this because all the new grass that pops up is always perfectly centered or flat with the ground.

Typically with rhizomes they shoot up and out of the ground on an angle and the baby plant looks a little cockeyed until its established,

Also, i havent found any rhizomes while plugging.
That said i havent found stolons either

It just doesnt behave like a rhizomatous grass.

Any one else out there notice this ? 
@timmybluegrass


----------



## mattcoughlin

Turf Kentucky bluegrass is a rhizome grass, not stolon. The only cool season stolon grass I'm aware of is bentgrass. I think poa triv may be too but I'm not 100% sure.


----------



## grumpsterfire

I laid 400sqft of pv sod at the end of April and it is doing well with regular watering and some azoxystobin and propiconazole. I'm currently cutting it at the max height of my automower at 3.6". It's a little shaggy looking at this height but I'm happy with the thickness and color and it is nice under bare feet.

The seed heads in May were crazy like others have said. I dropped my hoc from 3.2 down to 2.8 to chop them off and it looked very rough for a while. The lower, yellower part of the canopy became more visible and just didn't look good. It did improve but then the stems persisted for what seemed like an eternity so I allowed the height to rise for summer. Maybe the propiconazole further slowed that rise but it took another 3 wks or so to grow long enough to hide the stems.

Now that the stems are finally concealed, the turf is looking good. Any tips for more quickly improving appearance after seed heads? Do we reduce hoc by 0.5 inch after the seedhead flush is over then give it a shot of nitrogen? I heard here that pgr is not recommended for provista.

Has anyone discovered an approach that they're happy with?


----------



## Thick n Dense

grumpsterfire said:


> I laid 400sqft of pv sod at the end of April and it is doing well with regular watering and some azoxystobin and propiconazole. I'm currently cutting it at the max height of my automower at 3.6". It's a little shaggy looking at this height but I'm happy with the thickness and color and it is nice under bare feet.
> 
> The seed heads in May were crazy like others have said. I dropped my hoc from 3.2 down to 2.8 to chop them off and it looked very rough for a while. The lower, yellower part of the canopy became more visible and just didn't look good. It did improve but then the stems persisted for what seemed like an eternity so I allowed the height to rise for summer. Maybe the propiconazole further slowed that rise but it took another 3 wks or so to grow long enough to hide the stems.
> 
> Now that the stems are finally concealed, the turf is looking good. Any tips for more quickly improving appearance after seed heads? Do we reduce hoc by 0.5 inch after the seedhead flush is over then give it a shot of nitrogen? I heard here that pgr is not recommended for provista.
> 
> Has anyone discovered an approach that they're happy with?


I took a nonschalant approach this year and let seed heads remain. 
Mistake.
The hot weather stopped growth and I never had a chnace to cut down.

Next year, going to scalp in spring when the appear. Not sure of the height, maybe 2" 
Or 1.75" 
Whatever takes them out.

Its literally the only way.


----------



## desmorider804

This is the test area that I planted on 4/15/22. I think that it is holding up well to the central Virginia heat. I blame most of the bare area on the bag of Scott's soil that I purchased that had the consistency of like wood chips/mulch. The bag also said that that soil had starter fertilizer in it but no n-p-k listed on the bag.

This has only been cut twice since 04/15/22, and I have been hand picking any weeds that pop up.


----------



## aug0211

Intersting thread.

I see the notes that this is not performing at elite levels in terms of color, but that growth is fantastic.

Has anyone been able to do comparisons of color to other elites - midnights, for instance; or a closers side-by-side with other elite dwarf type KBGs?


----------



## Thick n Dense

I've only cut 3 times this year and 1 of those times probably wasn't needed LOL

I will add that I haven't watered at all, it did go dormant.

We have had a really hot and dry summer in Michigan, completely incomparable to last years notes.


----------



## desmorider804

desmorider804 said:


> This is the test area that I planted on 4/15/22. I think that it is holding up well to the central Virginia heat. I blame most of the bare area on the bag of Scott's soil that I purchased that had the consistency of like wood chips/mulch. The bag also said that that soil had starter fertilizer in it but no n-p-k listed on the bag.
> 
> This has only been cut twice since 04/15/22, and I have been hand picking any weeds that pop up.


Do you guys think it's established enough to hit it with a light fertilizer, and lightly spray roundup on any weed? Or just keep hand pulling?


----------



## critterdude311

desmorider804 said:


> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the test area that I planted on 4/15/22. I think that it is holding up well to the central Virginia heat. I blame most of the bare area on the bag of Scott's soil that I purchased that had the consistency of like wood chips/mulch. The bag also said that that soil had starter fertilizer in it but no n-p-k listed on the bag.
> 
> This has only been cut twice since 04/15/22, and I have been hand picking any weeds that pop up.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys think it's established enough to hit it with a light fertilizer, and lightly spray roundup on any weed? Or just keep hand pulling?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Start spoon feeding it every 2-3 weeks. With fall on the way you should be able to really thicken that up before winter dormancy.


----------



## desmorider804

critterdude311 said:


> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the test area that I planted on 4/15/22. I think that it is holding up well to the central Virginia heat. I blame most of the bare area on the bag of Scott's soil that I purchased that had the consistency of like wood chips/mulch. The bag also said that that soil had starter fertilizer in it but no n-p-k listed on the bag.
> 
> This has only been cut twice since 04/15/22, and I have been hand picking any weeds that pop up.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you guys think it's established enough to hit it with a light fertilizer, and lightly spray roundup on any weed? Or just keep hand pulling?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Absolutely. Start spoon feeding it every 2-3 weeks. With fall on the way you should be able to really thicken that up before winter dormancy.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Will also be starting a 10k reno with it soon.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> I've only cut 3 times this year and 1 of those times probably wasn't needed LOL
> 
> I will add that I haven't watered at all, it did go dormant.
> 
> We have had a really hot and dry summer in Michigan, completely incomparable to last years notes.


Totally brown now?


----------



## David816

For anyone interested in ProVista bluegrass, I just called the Scotts Miracle Gro Store in Marysville, Ohio ((937) 738-7238) and they're shipping me a 5 lb bag for $100.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've only cut 3 times this year and 1 of those times probably wasn't needed LOL
> 
> I will add that I haven't watered at all, it did go dormant.
> 
> We have had a really hot and dry summer in Michigan, completely incomparable to last years notes.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally brown now?
Click to expand...

No 
I forgot the timeline but after one of the big rain full it bounce back quickly 
Was dormant before... its been a few weeks since that rain and is starting to show signs of stress again


----------



## Thick n Dense

David816 said:


> For anyone interested in ProVista bluegrass, I just called the Scotts Miracle Gro Store in Marysville, Ohio ((937) 738-7238) and they're shipping me a 5 lb bag for $100.


This is close to how much I paid, I think I paid $425 with shipping for 25 lbs.


----------



## lawn-wolverine

There was some mention (was it LCN video?) that mentioned that you needed to kill everything else in complete Reno fashion and plant 100% ProVista Scotts (it will not "play well" with other grass (very different characteristics obviously). So people should be aware of THAT!!


----------



## aug0211

Really curious about two things:

1. How is color? Reading through this, it sounds like it might not be as dark as other elites. Is this just due to being a brand new lawn, or has anyone seen more mature outcomes that can comment on color relative to, say, Bewitched (particularly helpful for me as I've used Bewitched!).

2. How is disease resistance? A huge benefit to this is a monostand application, due to uniformity with growth rate and ability to glypho. I'm a bit concerned about losing an entire lawn in monostand use if a particular fungus or disease takes hold and wipes everything out.

For context, I'm contemplating this on a 65k sq ft new lawn. Other options include a 3-way KBG mix (likely with elites from Compact, Midnight, American lines to help with disease resilience).

@osuturfman - any chance you have an opinion? I think you've seen some more mature applications of ProVista, and I happen to also be in Columbus (NE side). In fact, if you want to share any advice or guidance on a new build project in the area (heck, even come out and poke around at it!) I would love feedback!


----------



## Thick n Dense

aug0211 said:


> Really curious about two things:
> 
> 1. How is color? Reading through this, it sounds like it might not be as dark as other elites. Is this just due to being a brand new lawn, or has anyone seen more mature outcomes that can comment on color relative to, say, Bewitched (particularly helpful for me as I've used Bewitched!).


If you or anyone wants to ship me a little pad of an elite variety, we can do a side by side.

lmk


----------



## David816

The 5lb bag I just got, for reference.



Looks like a slightly different mix than what @Thick n Dense got..


----------



## situman

Look at that, Scotts even included a .01% weed seeds for you to test the new grass with gly in the very near future.


----------



## desmorider804

David816 said:


> The 5lb bag I just got, for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a slightly different mix than what @Thick n Dense got..


Amazing that nothing comes up when you look up those varieties. I don't think my bags of Provista even have labels on them. Believe they were right from sod farms stash.


----------



## David816

desmorider804 said:


> David816 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The 5lb bag I just got, for reference.
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a slightly different mix than what @Thick n Dense got..
> 
> 
> 
> Amazing that nothing comes up when you look up those varieties. I don't think my bags of Provista even have labels on them. Believe they were right from sod farms stash.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Does seem odd. I was lucky enough to discover that there's a Scott's retail storefront in Marysville, OH that had them in stock and shipped for free. Now I'm curious about what other rare things they stock.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Really curious about two things:
> 
> 1. How is color? Reading through this, it sounds like it might not be as dark as other elites. Is this just due to being a brand new lawn, or has anyone seen more mature outcomes that can comment on color relative to, say, Bewitched (particularly helpful for me as I've used Bewitched!).
> 
> 
> 
> If you or anyone wants to ship me a little pad of an elite variety, we can do a side by side.
> 
> lmk
Click to expand...

Not a single variety but i can send you some 
365ss. Are those elite varieties?


----------



## tommydearest

lawn-wolverine said:


> There was some mention (was it LCN video?) that mentioned that you needed to kill everything else in complete Reno fashion and plant 100% ProVista Scotts (it will not "play well" with other grass (very different characteristics obviously). So people should be aware of THAT!!


I would imagine that's the case. KBG doesn't really work well with overseeding. More importantly, anything else you plant is going to be killed with any glyphosate applications anyway.


----------



## aug0211

Had 2 places quote me $40/lb for seed today. Lol. Nope.


----------



## David816

aug0211 said:


> Had 2 places quote me $40/lb for seed today. Lol. Nope.


Not sure how close you are to Marysville, Ohio, but I got mine from the Scotts Miracle Gro Retail Store there last week ((937) 738-7238) and they had 5lb bags for $100. I think $20/lb directly from Scotts is the cheapest I've heard.


----------



## aug0211

David816 said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had 2 places quote me $40/lb for seed today. Lol. Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how close you are to Marysville, Ohio, but I got mine from the Scotts Miracle Gro Retail Store there last week ((937) 738-7238) and they had 5lb bags for $100. I think $20/lb directly from Scotts is the cheapest I've heard.
Click to expand...

I'm a hop skip and a jump from them. Unfortunately they just don't have enough to cover what I need. I considered buying up what they have left (15 lbs), but decided against it because I don't want to end up with 15 lbs of stuff I won't use if I can't find the rest of the seed I'd need and end up either going another route.

Scott's guy in that store said he can't figure out why they won't release more to him to sell. My guess now is that they have a price hike coming through and are doubling their cost on the product to crank in some margin dollars.

At these prices, sod is the better option if ProVista is a must have.


----------



## David816

aug0211 said:


> David816 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Had 2 places quote me $40/lb for seed today. Lol. Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how close you are to Marysville, Ohio, but I got mine from the Scotts Miracle Gro Retail Store there last week ((937) 738-7238) and they had 5lb bags for $100. I think $20/lb directly from Scotts is the cheapest I've heard.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm a hop skip and a jump from them. Unfortunately they just don't have enough to cover what I need. I considered buying up what they have left (15 lbs), but decided against it because I don't want to end up with 15 lbs of stuff I won't use if I can't find the rest of the seed I'd need and end up either going another route.
> 
> Scott's guy in that store said he can't figure out why they won't release more to him to sell. My guess now is that they have a price hike coming through and are doubling their cost on the product to crank in some margin dollars.
> 
> At these prices, sod is the better option if ProVista is a must have.
Click to expand...

The seed inventory does seem to be practically non-existent. Perhaps they're prioritizing sod because of the germination/establishment headaches even people here experience?


----------



## aug0211

David816 said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> David816 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how close you are to Marysville, Ohio, but I got mine from the Scotts Miracle Gro Retail Store there last week ((937) 738-7238) and they had 5lb bags for $100. I think $20/lb directly from Scotts is the cheapest I've heard.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm a hop skip and a jump from them. Unfortunately they just don't have enough to cover what I need. I considered buying up what they have left (15 lbs), but decided against it because I don't want to end up with 15 lbs of stuff I won't use if I can't find the rest of the seed I'd need and end up either going another route.
> 
> Scott's guy in that store said he can't figure out why they won't release more to him to sell. My guess now is that they have a price hike coming through and are doubling their cost on the product to crank in some margin dollars.
> 
> At these prices, sod is the better option if ProVista is a must have.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The seed inventory does seem to be practically non-existent. Perhaps they're prioritizing sod because of the germination/establishment headaches even people here experience?
Click to expand...

At this point I've started asking for sod pricing if I really want to try PV.

Unfortunately, the jump from elite KBGs to PV is just nuts. No way PV is worth 500%-1,000% as much as others like Bewitched, Midnight, Bluebank, Mazama, etc.


----------



## g-man

I would not consider provista elite.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I would not consider provista elite.


This is helpful for me, carries a lot of weight coming from you.

Curious - where is it falling short?


----------



## LIgrass

g-man said:


> I would not consider provista elite.


Hey what's up gman. I would like to know too. Is it due to lack of NTEP testing? I've come across pics at higher HOCs where it looks kinda light, shaggy, and heard disease can hit it. But there's one member of a group I'm in who has it reel mowing at around .5" and it looks pretty sick.


----------



## g-man

The grass is a genetic compromise. Their goal was not a dark green lawn but a gly tolerant one.

I trust this opinion. I will try to reach out to him to see if he can provide an update for 2022.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31929


----------



## Thick n Dense

g-man said:


> The grass is a genetic compromise. Their goal was not a dark green lawn but a gly tolerant one.
> 
> I trust this opinion. I will try to reach out to him to see if he can provide an update for 2022.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=31929


I'd be careful with labeling > It's not quite a "compromise" as the grass is gorgeous and has better color and is far and away better than 99% of the stuff I see in my neighborhood.

If were talking solely on Darkness of the green color then I don't think it can compete with those top tiers Mazama 
however Prior, I had a Everest Midnight and bewtiched mix and it's not that far off. 
eh if you want it but that worried about color hit with foliar Iron.

IMO, It's in that tier of varieties that would get submitted to the NTEP trials but come in the medium to bottom tier post results in the color category.

The grass is a huge upgrade in color and consistency, texture & for anyone who hasn't never reno'd, it's not a step backward.

I think it needs to be showcased on Ryan Knoor or Connor Ward. LCN would have had it but he's in florida.
I literally mowed 3 times this year. just saying.


----------



## Green

@Thick n Dense

As you may know, JTLK has it now, and LCN keeps doing podcasts on it on Lawns for America.

I feel like every grass is a compromise...that's just how things are. Depends on your priorities.

Did you have tons of seedheads?


----------



## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense
> 
> As you may know, JTLK has it now, and LCN keeps doing podcasts on it on Lawns for America.
> 
> I feel like every grass is a compromise...that's just how things are. Depends on your priorities.
> 
> Did you have tons of seedheads?


I did but you can pretty much scalp it and double cut.

Go from 3" to 1.5"
I didnt do it this year but did the year before and worked well. 
It goes against nature of the 1/3" rule, the grass didnt seem to care.

I agree that its not perfect in every regard but its above that of youre "normal grasss seed"

Good tip on JKLTK


----------



## Dcaf214

I haven't been logged in on this ProVista thread in awhile, but wanted to chime in my thoughts. Just had KBG this sodded my front lawn, on 8/5.

I've spoken to someone from the Scotts ProVista "team", (when I was considering this Turf). He claimed not any more disease, insect or thatch prone than other conventional KBG's. For anyone wandering, I asked about width of grass blade, he acknowledged it's a tad wider as it's considered a dwarf grass and it's how it was developed.

I'm not entirely familiar with elite KBG cultivars as far as deep green color etc, but I'm fully confident as another member mentioned this won't be far off. And yes agree, IMO, this is not much of a step down. Now I Will have a better feel next season and the year after for sure, but love what I'm seeing early on.

I consider myself a die hard and love to mow and am really into striping, so I was concerned about dwarf growth, but I'm good as i feel it will grow plenty with reg fert apps per my conversation. (We shall see).

My biggest draw, weather sucked in or not, was gly tolerant as I have battled Poa Annua for many many years. The Scotts guy surprisingly didn't try to tell me that someday the PV May resist Gly if I'm saying that right. ( but likely not in my lifetime). He even Reno his lawn by Gly existing and seeding into scalped turf. Turned out great but as many of you know, took into next season to get full stand and he had to Gly the weed/ weed grasses the following spring.

He also said that Scotts is in fact hesitant to push seed sales just for reasons mentioned, the avg homeowner can't handle what goes into nurturing the growth of this seed, or have the patience for it. They are clearly marketing sod so far.

Well, I will keep this forum updated on how my PV KBG sod develops as the fall goes, I will certainly send pics (if I can figure out how to post pics)! If anyone has any questions on anything from my experience going forward, please didn't hesitate to ask.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I'll add too that color is deceiving on this forum > I say this because while looking through the Lawn Journals, every one that I randomly clicked out was Reel Mowing aka Striping.

Striping the average looking 1960's lawn makes it look 1 million times better.
Reeel mowing cuts off most of the color producing foliage and thus changes the tone > Color will be different at 3" compare to .75" do to density.

Striping adds an instant comparator (the light stripes) to contrast with.

There's also the fact that people spray foliar Iron and PGR which is a cosmetic boost.
Most of the people posting on journals do this to give it that extra boost.

To date, I don't know of anyone gave Provista this treatment on this forum.

It's almost like comparing real life bodies to photo shopped instagram photos.

I don't have a reel but I'm planning on hitting with some Iron and Striping for you all.

I just wanted to point out that all the pictures I've posted of this grass is bare knuckled, with no tricks or gimmicks to improve it's look.

Also My last thought, is that I do think that the grass had darkened here on year 2 like some bluegreasses do.
This is probably the main difference between people who Sod PV vs Seed PV. something to keep in mind. 
Mine and Timmy's experiments were seed.

PS: I think this is a problem with all grasses when one Reels and uses PGR and Iron > any comparisons become impossible unless the grasses are all treated the same way.

PSS: I may experiment with light rates of PGR even though no recommended by Scotts. Kind of look cooking, just a dash. 
Risk is low right now with Fall inbound.


----------



## desmorider804

How long would you guys recommend someone to wait before seeding Provista after killing lawn with Glypho?


----------



## ABC123

Has anybody tried seeding at lower rates. Bluegrass will spread, but how quick does this fill in spots? Say if you seeded 25lb/a or less


----------



## Dcaf214

Desmorider804,

I have haven't specifically seeded into a Reno yet after killing existing turf with glypho, but if I did, ide do full kill on all turf min 2 apps. Ide wait about 2 weeks in between apps if possible, but that has to be started well before fall is going to seed ProVista.

Oops idk if that specifically answered your question, but I have read all over this forum and other sources that one can seed right into turf same day or safely just a few days after last glypho app applied.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> How long would you guys recommend someone to wait before seeding Provista after killing lawn with Glypho?


So honestly since its almost september
Id wait until spring.

Sounds crazy but since you can blast with gly 
The warm temps in spring will help this take off faster

My seed was in sprout and pout until spring when i seeded in spetmeber with PV

Sounds *** backward but its the truth


----------



## Thick n Dense

Does anyone see an issue withadding gly to ammonium ferrous sulfate ?

I have some random weeds and planning on adding some 
2 birds 1 stone 
Probably will do a diluted rate

Thoughts apreciated


----------



## solydx

Does anyone know the difference between myholidaylawn and scott PV? I have MyHolidayLawn lawn right now, weed is kinda taking over so I am pushing hard this year to bring it under control and have healthy lawn and planning to aerate, scarifier and oversees.

As MyHolidayLawn is no longer available, I am looking for either Scott PV or conventional KBG mix (from seedsuperstore). The gly-tolerant sounds nice as everything out compete my current lawn due to its slow grow property but I like that I don't have to mow it every week. But on the neg side, I only need 10lbs or less for overseed but Scott PV only comes in either 5 or 30lb bags and supplier close to me only has 30lb bag (no word from Scott when 5lb will be back in stock), not sure if the benefits of PV can justify $900 tag upfront vs $70-$80 for reg KBG mix. Any feedback/suggestions which option makes more sense?


----------



## Thick n Dense

Im really not sure what youre looking for here ...

If youre looking for a cost justificatin then figure out how a cost model .

I mowed 4 times this year.

From that persoective alone it will definitly net you positive for the 900$ price tag within 1-2 years 
Not sure what the cost of a lawn service is nowadays

Besides that look through this thread 
Almost everything has been discussed.

If you cant make a decision for yourself 
Then just do it . There I did it for you

Keep in mind also future renovations due to triv infestation into cost model


----------



## Thick n Dense

Yea so follow this

Mow 2x times a week for 3 months 
Mow time 30 minutes 
Thats 4 hours per month 
16 hours per 3 months 
50$ an hour (maybe a bit high but were saying 30 mins per mow, adjust how you see fit)

16x50$ = 800$

2nd year 1,600$

3rd year 2,400$

Break even > little over one year


----------



## Green

solydx said:


> Does anyone know the difference between myholidaylawn and scott PV? I have MyHolidayLawn lawn right now, weed is kinda taking over so I am pushing hard this year to bring it under control and have healthy lawn and planning to aerate, scarifier and oversees.
> 
> As MyHolidayLawn is no longer available, I am looking for either Scott PV or conventional KBG mix (from seedsuperstore). The gly-tolerant sounds nice as everything out compete my current lawn due to its slow grow property but I like that I don't have to mow it every week. But on the neg side, I only need 10lbs or less for overseed but Scott PV only comes in either 5 or 30lb bags and supplier close to me only has 30lb bag (no word from Scott when 5lb will be back in stock), not sure if the benefits of PV can justify $900 tag upfront vs $70-$80 for reg KBG mix. Any feedback/suggestions which option makes more sense?


They're different cultivars by different companies, of course. So there will be various differences (besides the glyphosate part). If you have MHL, there is no reason to destroy it unless you need to have glyphosate resistance (and gly could eventually be banned in some localities, so why smoke something you have now that's good and no longer available?).

I would just keep plugging away with your MHL (see what I did?). I'm still renovating with it, but only in a 1,000 square foot area. I plan to keep it if it works. It may not due to shade.

If you need to overseed, adding Provista in with MHL may make some sense. Try a very small area first and follow it for a year so you can reverse course and replug with MHL if you don't like it.


----------



## solydx

Thanks for the feedback guys and sorry I guess I didn't explain in detail about my project.
I have 100% MHL, it was really nice when I installed it 7 years ago but always fighting against the weeds/other grass as anything and everything will out grow MHL. Then due to some other things going on in life, I couldn't attend it as needed for 2 years and it was mostly weeds by end of last year (it was ugly), this year I went after it (added compost, pre-emergent, consistent fertilizing/watering/mowing, spot treatment with post-emergent/round-up/manually taking out weeds), it's in better shape but still lot of weeds. So I am planning to aerate this fall and then overseed.



Thick n Dense said:


> Im really not sure what youre looking for here ...


@Thick n Dense I got your point regarding less mowing, I am looking for some feedback on how Scott VP perform against weeds (not talking about gly tolerance), is it thick enough to choke out some weeds or everything will come through it like my MHL? On the cost perspective, I agree that it saves lot of mowing time but it negates the benefit if I spending time on weed fix every other week (I understand weed can be issue for any grass type but my MHL doesn't choke anything)

Also looking on some feedback how PV performs in high traffic areas as MHL struggles there.

@Green I tried plugging this spring but didn't get much success (could be the ground itself, that's why planning to do aerating this fall), also having two cultivars are better than one I think. I am leaning towards PV but as I said in my post, I only need `10lbs (4500 sqft lawn) as PV comes in either 5 or 30lbs ($30 per pound, $150 for 5lbs and $900 for 30lbs bag) and reseller close to me only have 30lb bag and have no idea when 5lb will be in stock. So I am debating if I should overseed with Scott PV (spend $900) or just go with conventional KBG (aerate/scarifier hell out of existing lawn and heavy overseeding of new seed, $150 for 25lbs).

I appreciate your help guys, I am kinda newbie when it comes to lawn care (started to invest more time on lawn this year) so open to ideas/suggestions.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@solydx

For sure it does however it won't be right away.

It spreads and fills in fast but as with any reno the first 1-2 years need to build up thickness but you'll also need to keep it at a higher HOC. 3" or more.
Typically, it takes KBG a few seasons to be so thick that you need to scarify or aerate due to thatch layer. 
I'm ending year two and I can only say this is true for a few spots, however there a TON of Rhizome sprouts in the spots that need filling in. KBG has a like exponential curve in where the more mature the grass is the more rhizomes it sends out, season after season, the damgaed spots will fill in faster, yea there's a limit but the difference between years 1-2 to years 3-X is substantial.

I could see a scenario where if you cut under let's say 2.5" going into summer and you have crabgrass seeds, those will defintly sprout and thrive. 
The grass stalls growth when it heats up and will not outcompete summer weeds in the month of July.
However, this is true for any bluegrass.

I also think that Pre-emergant will always be required, for any lawn. 
After 2-3 straight years, you may be able to skip when the KBG gets thick and you've germinated and eradicated weeds from your yard through consistent pre M and weed control > however nature always will take back over.

I cant compare to MHL.

Also, I would not aerate when seeding unless you fill the holes back in. 
Definitely not with PV.


----------



## g-man

@solydx I think before going down the path of PV, try to Id your weeds. Read the Cool Season Guide for an approach on how to deal with weeds.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> @solydx
> 
> Also, I would not aerate when seeding unless you fill the holes back in.
> Definitely not with PV.


Is the reason for the not to aerate comment because of the short grow height of the PV? Like it won't make it out of the aeration holes? Do you think it would be okay to verticut the ground that was killed off by glypho before seeding?


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @solydx
> 
> Also, I would not aerate when seeding unless you fill the holes back in.
> Definitely not with PV.
> 
> 
> 
> Is the reason for the not to aerate comment because of the short grow height of the PV? Like it won't make it out of the aeration holes? Do you think it would be okay to verticut the ground that was killed off by glypho before seeding?
Click to expand...

Thats exactly the reason

It will be in sprout and pout till spring

And people usually aerate before cause they dont want to kick up weed seeds and that doesnt matter now.

Plus aeration and even verticutting isnt really required for a reno as long as you have something to help the seed out 
Straw also an option without fear of weed seeds


----------



## solydx

@g-man thanks for suggestion, I identified few (crabgrass, clover, quackgrass) and took care of them but still have other kinds which I have no idea which ones are those. I'll probably start a new thread and post pics to get some help on ID of those.



Thick n Dense said:


> Also, I would not aerate when seeding unless you fill the holes back in.
> Definitely not with PV.


I am planning to aerate and then scarify to break the plugs and mix compost to fill the holes. I thought you need as much ground contact as possible for new seeds (how PV will compete against existing lawn if overseeded). Is there anything I am missing here and shouldn't `do the aerate/overseed as planned?


----------



## Thick n Dense

solydx said:


> @g-man thanks for suggestion, I identified few (crabgrass, clover, quackgrass) and took care of them but still have other kinds which I have no idea which ones are those. I'll probably start a new thread and post pics to get some help on ID of those.
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, I would not aerate when seeding unless you fill the holes back in.
> Definitely not with PV.
> 
> 
> 
> I am planning to aerate and then scarify to break the plugs and mix compost to fill the holes. I thought you need as much ground contact as possible for new seeds (how PV will compete against existing lawn if overseeded). Is there anything I am missing here and shouldn't `do the aerate/overseed as planned?
Click to expand...

Who said anything about overseeing ? 
That's a terrible idea with pro vista


----------



## solydx

Thick n Dense said:


> Who said anything about overseeing ?
> That's a terrible idea with pro vista


Are you referring tp slow growth for PV (that it won't work with existing fast growing grass)? In that case, I should be fine as I have MHL which is slow growing as well. or there's a totally different reason for not to overseed PV?


----------



## ABC123

Anybody with this growing post some pictures


----------



## Thick n Dense

ABC123 said:


> Anybody with this growing post some pictures


I'll post after I hit with FAS.

Judgmental group here, want to make sure she has her makeup on.


----------



## ABC123

Post before and after. Love to see natural beauty, nobody likes a catfish &#128514;


----------



## Thick n Dense

ABC123 said:


> Post before and after. Love to see natural beauty, nobody likes a catfish 😂


Ive also been lazy and did no prem and sprayed for the first time all year last week so there are weeds

Oops

Gly tolerance has made me lazy be careful

Top left by those bushes died 
Those rabbits live in those bushes come out and it the grass 
I need a dog


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> ABC123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Post before and after. Love to see natural beauty, nobody likes a catfish 😂
> 
> 
> 
> Ive also been lazy and did no prem and sprayed for the first time all year last week so there are weeds
> 
> Oops
> 
> Gly tolerance has made me lazy be careful
> 
> Top left by those bushes died
> Those rabbits live in those bushes come out and it the grass
> I need a dog
Click to expand...

@Dcaf214

Hows your sod looking ???
Can we see a pic?


----------



## Dcaf214

Sod is doing well so far.









These were just after first mow (day 15). HOC highest setting (approx 4 1/4).


----------



## Thick n Dense

Front



Sedge spot up there in the middle that I have yet to spray

Apparently my 4 year old bottle chelated iron turned a chocolate milk color lol 
I'll need to order some more

Cut here is on level 'E' (has been all year) on time master 
Front did pretty decent for no pre M

Im going to raise the height of cut a bit going into fall/winter, this should make give the grass a bit more color


----------



## Thick n Dense

I have a theory that this grass doesnt photograph well in full sun 
I think that the phone camera picks up reflected light from the blades that our eyes cant see 
The photo I just posted is with an over cast sky

Anyone else that has think this to be true ?


----------



## Thick n Dense

Suns out guns out


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> Suns out guns out


@ABC123 
Would you call her back ?

Lmao


----------



## ABC123

Thick n Dense said:


> @ABC123
> Would you call her back ?
> 
> Lmao


💀 😂


----------



## Thick n Dense

Rain green up

Ill add too that this is my front yard that has no shade.
I did not water a single time this year, yes it went dormant in the peak but see how quickly it bounced back. 
Others lawns are not so lucky 
I need to gly that sedge soon


----------



## ABC123

What's your fertilizer plan? Being that it went dormant I'd say it looks amazing already


----------



## Thick n Dense

ABC123 said:


> What's your fertilizer plan? Being that it went dormant I'd say it looks amazing already


I did some 20-20-20 in may > i put down about 30#'s per 8k sq ft

Then 16-0-10 (lowes brand with humic ans kelp) 
After when the weather broke like 2 weeks ago.

Thats it

Ferrous sulfate came in yesterday.

Ive cut on time mastwr setting E all year 
Going to raise it up to D which is taller 
Works better with rotary stripers

Skunks gotthe front pretty good last year 
The front strip which isnt shown is rough and needs to fill in. 
Going to be hammering N there and some other spots like n back where the bunnies ate it up


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> ABC123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's your fertilizer plan? Being that it went dormant I'd say it looks amazing already
> 
> 
> 
> I did some 20-20-20 in may > i put down about 30#'s per 8k sq ft
> 
> Then 16-0-10 (lowes brand with humic ans kelp)
> After when the weather broke like 2 weeks ago.
> 
> Thats it
> 
> Ferrous sulfate came in yesterday.
> 
> Ive cut on time mastwr setting E all year
> Going to raise it up to D which is taller
> Works better with rotary stripers
> 
> Skunks gotthe front pretty good last year
> The front strip which isnt shown is rough and needs to fill in. A
> Going to be hammering N there and some other spots like n back where the bunnies ate it up
Click to expand...

I'll add lastly that i dont think this woukd have gone dormant if I had watered or we had more rain.


----------



## desmorider804

Have a decision I would like some help with. In doing the Provista Reno I've been presented with 2 options by two different companies, same price.

1-Harley Raking and removing current dead sod.

2-Bringing in and spreading 24 yards of 50/50 soil/compost mixture.

Which option do you guys think is best?

Thanks for all answers.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Have a decision I would like some help with. In doing the Provista Reno I've been presented with 2 options by two different companies, same price.
> 
> 1-Harley Raking and removing current dead sod.
> 
> 2-Bringing in and spreading 24 yards of 50/50 soil/compost mixture.
> 
> Which option do you guys think is best?
> 
> Thanks for all answers.


PV isnt different than any other reno 
Youre running out of seeding window


----------



## Thick n Dense

@desmorider804 
Ill add that moving 24 cy is way more work than you think it is... 
i moved 16 cy and i consider myself a strapping young buck and was beat. 
Took me all week

I also wasnt impressed with the compost mix
I wouldnt do it again 
Straight soil

If you dont have some sort of motorized vehicle to move the dirt forget about it

Itll take you 2 weeks mininum


----------



## Dcaf214

How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?

So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?

Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.

My two cents


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> @desmorider804
> Ill add that moving 24 cy is way more work than you think it is...
> i moved 16 cy and i consider myself a strapping young buck and was beat.
> Took me all week
> 
> I also wasnt impressed with the compost mix
> I wouldnt do it again
> Straight soil
> 
> If you dont have some sort of motorized vehicle to move the dirt forget about it
> 
> Itll take you 2 weeks mininum


Company would be delivering, and spreading the 24cy with a skid steer.


----------



## desmorider804

Dcaf214 said:


> How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?
> 
> So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?
> 
> Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.
> 
> My two cents


Sod has been sprayed with glyphosate. If i go with the guy with the Harley Rake he would get up the current sod with the skid steer, and loosen up the existing soil.

If I went with the 24 Cy of tap soil it would be spread on top of current scalped sod.

Seed will go down this upcoming weekend. We are still in the high °80's to °90.

Any better ideas?


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Dcaf214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?
> 
> So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?
> 
> Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.
> 
> My two cents
> 
> 
> 
> Sod has been sprayed with glyphosate. If i go with the guy with the Harley Rake he would get up the current sod with the skid steer, and loosen up the existing soil.
> 
> If I went with the 24 Cy of tap soil it would be spread on top of current scalped sod.
> 
> Seed will go down this upcoming weekend. We are still in the high °80's to °90.
> 
> Any better ideas?
Click to expand...

Most people just use peat moss roll and cover 
The 2 options your posting about arent required as long as you have seed to soil your good

I was too afraid to spray gly late in the year of reno due to cold and immature grass 
So make sure you use tenacity


----------



## Dcaf214

If you killed existing turf with glypho a few weeks out and more than one application, your prob good that you nuked all undesirable weed grasses and weeds and their roots. If not, IMO you may wanna have it removed, but then again truly nuked scalped turf makes for a great seed Bed as seed to soil contact is there as Thick N Dense indicated. pro/cons to both and differing opinions out there.


----------



## Thick n Dense

desmorider804 said:


> Dcaf214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?
> 
> So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?
> 
> Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.
> 
> My two cents
> 
> 
> 
> Sod has been sprayed with glyphosate. If i go with the guy with the Harley Rake he would get up the current sod with the skid steer, and loosen up the existing soil.
> 
> If I went with the 24 Cy of tap soil it would be spread on top of current scalped sod.
> 
> Seed will go down this upcoming weekend. We are still in the high °80's to °90.
> 
> Any better ideas?
Click to expand...

The area where I spread 16 CY of 50 50 compost soil mix over 1,000 sq feet is doing terrible.

It needs a soil test, probably to acidic.


----------



## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dcaf214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?
> 
> So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?
> 
> Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.
> 
> My two cents
> 
> 
> 
> Sod has been sprayed with glyphosate. If i go with the guy with the Harley Rake he would get up the current sod with the skid steer, and loosen up the existing soil.
> 
> If I went with the 24 Cy of tap soil it would be spread on top of current scalped sod.
> 
> Seed will go down this upcoming weekend. We are still in the high °80's to °90.
> 
> Any better ideas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Most people just use peat moss roll and cover
> The 2 options your posting about arent required as long as you have seed to soil your good
> 
> I was too afraid to spray gly late in the year of reno due to cold and immature grass
> So make sure you use tenacity
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the advice


----------



## desmorider804

Dcaf214 said:


> If you killed existing turf with glypho a few weeks out and more than one application, your prob good that you nuked all undesirable weed grasses and weeds and their roots. If not, IMO you may wanna have it removed, but then again truly nuked scalped turf makes for a great seed Bed as seed to soil contact is there as Thick N Dense indicated. pro/cons to both and differing opinions out there.


Thanks for the advice.


----------



## desmorider804

First pic is pre scalp





Second and third pic are after taking it down to 1 inch with HRX mower. Shocked at how much dirt scalping revealed.

Thanks to you guys I think I saved myself $1500 in dirt work. Wish I could buy you all a beer.

Do you guys think It would help the seedbed to go over it with Swardman scarifier, or verticutter, or just go with what I have now?

Thanks again


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## desmorider804

[/quote]

The area where I spread 16 CY of 50 50 compost soil mix over 1,000 sq feet is doing terrible.

It needs a soil test, probably to acidic.
[/quote]

Sucks to have problems after so much labor. I hope that you are able to get it sorted out.


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## desmorider804

Thick n Dense said:


> desmorider804 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dcaf214 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How is the existing sod currently dead? Did you chemically kill it? How exactly would you remove the dead sod?
> 
> So If you just Lay the topsoil mix, that's just on top of the dead grass? The landscaper is laying all the soil right?
> 
> Keep in mind, seed to soil contact is critical and yes I totally agree, this is on the later side to seed ProVista, but would seed ASAP if your set on it this fall.
> 
> My two cents
> 
> 
> 
> Sod has been sprayed with glyphosate. If i go with the guy with the Harley Rake he would get up the current sod with the skid steer, and loosen up the existing soil.
> 
> If I went with the 24 Cy of tap soil it would be spread on top of current scalped sod.
> 
> Seed will go down this upcoming weekend. We are still in the high °80's to °90.
> 
> Any better ideas?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The area where I spread 16 CY of 50 50 compost soil mix over 1,000 sq feet is doing terrible.
> 
> It needs a soil test, probably to acidic.
Click to expand...

Sucks to have problems after so much labor. I hope that you are able to get it sorted out.


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## Thick n Dense

One interestinf thing about this grass is that it appears to not want to root deep

Im ending year 2 from seed and the roots dont appear to be more than 2" deep

This weakness is like a moot point because the water and drought tolerance

But if youre some one that wants super deep roots it may never do that

Full disclosure : i havent watered at all and i dont use soil softeners or humic acid
The grass isnt trained to go deep per say

Been moving plugs and noticed this


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## rmengel

I have found the same thing to be true. I think it's just the insanely slow growing nature of this stuff. Even the area that I sodded had super shallow roots. The stuff is almost impossible to plug because it just falls apart


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## Dcaf214

Well I dont like the sounds of not deep rooting as I have ProVista KBG sod about a month old. I couldn't find really anything out there on how drought tolerant it is, but spoke to Scotts ProVista person and he claimed not any more prone to drying out than conventional KBG.....well we shall see next summer, but shallow roots certainly can't help.

By plug you mean to core aerate correct?


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## Thick n Dense

Plugs typically mean using something like a pro plugger

I find that the grass holds on longer before going dormant but starts to look stressed along with all others.

I plugged once i fall, spring then when I posted 
The plugs in spring had deeper roots and stayed together 
Im not sure if its the spot i took them from or that the plant sheds roots during the summer and plugging in fall is coming up with shorter roots 
Idk 
Maybe the growth of it takes longer for deeper roots to establish


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## grumpsterfire

I just wanted to chime in on root depth with my experience with my 4 month old 400sqft pv sod area. I've been using the 4" depth ring on the pro plugger and my plugs have been holding together fine. There are visible roots on the ends of those plugs so it very well may be deeper in places (could be from the turf I'd cut out, though). But I'm choosing the 4" ring for now and I find them to hold together in general.

After the rooting-in process, I think I did an acceptable job of watering a half inch every 4 days during the summer. The area does not get full sun and had no fert from mid June through August.


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## Dcaf214

So clue me in please, you pull plugs from your lawn for the purpose of replanting the plugs in another part of the lawn to establish desireable turf grass? I'm just not familiar, so wondering.

Also, grumpsterfire, so you had the ProVista KBG put down in June? Did you fertilize it after it was established/rooted fully?


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## grumpsterfire

Dcaf214 said:


> So clue me in please, you pull plugs from your lawn for the purpose of replanting the plugs in another part of the lawn to establish desireable turf grass? I'm just not familiar, so wondering.


Yes. There are some nice examples in the cool season lawn journals where folks kill off a decent sized patch of grass in order to eliminate a poa trivialis infestation. They then move plugs from a healthy donor area to the dead areas (usually plugs spaced less than 6" center-to-center) . Under good conditions with proper care, the kbg can fill in the bare areas by spreading with rhizomes over a season or so. (prg and tttf cannot spread this way in general)

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=35164&p=535807&hilit=Plugs#p535807



Dcaf214 said:


> Also, grumpsterfire, so you had the ProVista KBG put down in June? Did you fertilize it after it was established/rooted fully?


I installed at the end of April and applied starter fert per my sod supplier's recommendation. But after imstall and rooting in, it only received the same fertilizer applications as the rest of my lawn according to my soil test recommendations (albeit a little late).


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## Green

Thick n Dense said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Thick n Dense
> 
> As you may know, JTLK has it now, and LCN keeps doing podcasts on it on Lawns for America.
> 
> I feel like every grass is a compromise...that's just how things are. Depends on your priorities.
> 
> Did you have tons of seedheads?
> 
> 
> 
> I did but you can pretty much scalp it and double cut.
> 
> Go from 3" to 1.5"
> I didnt do it this year but did the year before and worked well.
> It goes against nature of the 1/3" rule, the grass didnt seem to care.
> 
> I agree that its not perfect in every regard but its above that of youre "normal grasss seed"
> 
> Good tip on JKLTK
Click to expand...

Check out Jake's new video on the seedhead issue. He contacted the scientists, and got the advice to "scalp" it...exactly what you figured out on your own.


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## Thick n Dense

Green said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Thick n Dense
> 
> As you may know, JTLK has it now, and LCN keeps doing podcasts on it on Lawns for America.
> 
> I feel like every grass is a compromise...that's just how things are. Depends on your priorities.
> 
> Did you have tons of seedheads?
> 
> 
> 
> I did but you can pretty much scalp it and double cut.
> 
> Go from 3" to 1.5"
> I didnt do it this year but did the year before and worked well.
> It goes against nature of the 1/3" rule, the grass didnt seem to care.
> 
> I agree that its not perfect in every regard but its above that of youre "normal grasss seed"
> 
> Good tip on JKLTK
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Check out Jake's new video on the seedhead issue. He contacted the scientists, and got the advice to "scalp" it...exactly what you figured out on your own.
Click to expand...

Yea I saw that. 
You can bag instead of doing a 2nd pass
I prefer not bagging


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## Dcaf214

I can't seem to find Youtube video by Jake the Lawn kid on Scotts ProVista seedhead issues, referenced recently?

Can anyone advise me how to find. I just viewed his recent video on fly usage on ProVista, but couldn't find a separate seed-head video.

Thanks


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## sconnie03

Has anyone tried mixing their provista bluegrass seed with an annual ryegrass or other crop to save some money? Thoughts are that after the year it would go away and then the provista could fill in.


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## desmorider804

sconnie03 said:


> Has anyone tried mixing their provista bluegrass seed with an annual ryegrass or other crop to save some money? Thoughts are that after the year it would go away and then the provista could fill in.


The ryegrass would outgrow the Provista, and Provista would germinate very little, or not at all.


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## Stuofsci02

desmorider804 said:


> The ryegrass would outgrow the KBG, and KBG would germinate very little, or not at all.


Why do you say that... Rye is often mixed with KBG seed....


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## g-man

Stuofsci02 said:


> Why do you say that... Rye is often mixed with KBG seed....







__





How much perennial ryegrass/Kentucky bluegrass in a mix? | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University







turf.purdue.edu


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## Stuofsci02

g-man said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How much perennial ryegrass/Kentucky bluegrass in a mix? | Purdue University Turfgrass Science at Purdue University
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> turf.purdue.edu


I don't disagree that the rye will outperform the KBG in the short term. My comment was in regards to "KBG would germinate very little, or not at all. "


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## desmorider804

Stuofsci02 said:


> I don't disagree that the rye will outperform the KBG in the short term. My comment was in regards to "KBG would germinate very little, or not at all. "


I'm sorry that I didn't word my answer totally correct, My answer was based on the Provista KBG. This stuff is very, very, very slow to germinate and grow. I planted Provista and 365ss at the same time, in different areas of my property, and the difference in growth is huge. I think that if I had mixed 365ss and Provista and seeded in the same area the 365ss would outgrow and block out the Provista. 

I'm no professional, these are just my thoughts and what I've experienced with Provista.


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## Stuofsci02

desmorider804 said:


> I'm sorry that I didn't word my answer totally correct, My answer was based on the Provista KBG. This stuff is very, very, very slow to germinate and grow. I planted Provista and 365ss at the same time, in different areas of my property, and the difference in growth is huge. I think that if I had mixed 365ss and Provista and seeded in the same area the 365ss would outgrow and block out the Provista.
> 
> I'm no professional, these are just my thoughts and what I've experienced with Provista.


Yeah I’ve heard Provista is slow….would be an interesting experiment, since you could gly your way back to a monostand at some point..


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## Jersey_diy

Does anyone have a link to where I can purchase provista kbg seed? Any offering small amounts?


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## desmorider804

Where are you located, and how much do you need? I might have three 5 pound bags I might get rid of. Are you planting in the spring?


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## Jersey_diy

desmorider804 said:


> Where are you located, and how much do you need? I might have three 5 pound bags I might get rid of. Are you planting in the spring?


I am in NJ.... I plan to start plugs indoors in early august. how much for a 5 pound bag?


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## desmorider804

Day 55 since seed down. Third mow at 1.25in.


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## desmorider804

Dec 10 will be 3 months since seed down. Cut today at 1.25in.


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