# Advice needed



## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

So I posted early about some clumping fescue in my backyard. Tried removing it but there was just a whole section that was a thin weed and the CF. So I prob made a mistake and scalping it and then hitting with round up last night. Didn't really die, hit it again this am. Then went out and got the actual concentrate and put in sprayer and sprayed again.

I tried initially removing the area like sod (cutting it out) but that was nearly impossible . Is best way to nuke it (as I have done) and rake it out and reseed. Getting close to frost here in Denver. Afraid I waited to late for this project. Has been slightly warmer but my guess is oct 18th ish we will have first frost. Thoughts ?

By the way, sand area (bare patch) is where I put the fire pit in summer. Insecure note.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)




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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Are you saying you sprayed roundup 24 hours after the first application because it didn't die?

Glyphosate will take approx 3-5 days to see results, depending on weather conditions.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Oh I didn't know that. So when it does die just rake it out to get to soil so I can put topper down and reseed ?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Jconnelly6b said:


> Glyphosate will take approx 3-5 days to see results, depending on weather conditions.


+1.

Actually, in my experience, it takes about 3-5 days after spraying plain glyphosate to even tell that the grass is starting to die. It may take 7-10 days before it really looks dead, maybe even 10-14 days for _poa trivialis_.

That said, after non-dormant cool season grasses are sprayed with glyphosate, they're doomed if the glyphosate stays on the plant for about 6 hours after they've been sprayed. In other words, even though it doesn't look dead yet, there's nothing that you could do to reverse the process at this point. That grass is essentially as good as dead already, if you got the dosing right and didn't miss spots.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Jconnelly6b said:
> 
> 
> > Glyphosate will take approx 3-5 days to see results, depending on weather conditions.
> ...


My goal is to kill that whole area and reseed so I want it to die. My main question is - is this the best way to do it? Wait till it dies and then rake it all out , add topper and reseed ?


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

You are very late in the season to plant seed. The area looks very small. Why not sod it?


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

That's a good idea

I do have all TTTF in back and feel like most sod in my area is KBG

Not sure why I didn't think of sod , thanks


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

someguybri said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
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> > Jconnelly6b said:
> ...


Yes this would be the best way to do it. Wait until it dies out, like other's have said it usually takes a couple days to really even tell it's dying and then I'd say 5 days to a week or so for it to all really die out. Then scalp it with your mower or weed eater and rake out dead stuff. You can then apply a layer of top soil, seed and starter fert and cover with a thin layer of peat moss or straw but make sure straw is weed free variety.

Like others have said your getting pretty late into the year especially in Denver to seed so maybe since the area is fairly small just sod it? If you don't want to sod it then I guess throw down some seed and hope mother nature helps you out.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Guess I could seed and if fail sod in spring , thanks for the feedback on removal


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> someguybri said:
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> > ken-n-nancy said:
> ...


I didn't really explain what I meant when I said "That grass is essentially as good as dead already, if you got the dosing right and didn't miss spots."

If you're sure that you got the dosing right and didn't miss spots (very unlikely, actually, if you sprayed it twice), then that grass is as good as dead already.

As a result, you don't need to "Wait until it dies out..." It's _*already as good as dead*_.

Even thought it's still green, it is doomed, and won't compete with anything that you sow now. You can proceed directly to the "scalp it with your mower" step, and so on. You don't need to wait for it to turn brown and die. It is now an irreversible process for that grass.

I've made use of this trick before to reduce the amount of time the grass looks brown. I think if one did this technique and sowed perennial ryegrass, which looks like a lawn in about 14 days, you'd only have a brown lawn for about a week.

There was somebody else on this site that was going to try the "one day renovation" where one does the scalp, spray, and seed all in one day. I don't recall who it was; come to think of it, I'd think there'd be results to report on that -- I wonder how it went?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> There was somebody else on this site that was going to try the "one day renovation" where one does the scalp, spray, and seed all in one day. I don't recall who it was; come to think of it, I'd think there'd be results to report on that -- I wonder how it went?


My wires may be tangled, but I believe that to be @jessehurlburt


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> ksturfguy said:
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> > someguybri said:
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Oh ok that makes sense now.

Here's my thinking and correct me if I'm wrong. I thought once the grass died (visibly dead) the roots would weaken- making it easier to metal rake it out , so that I have a clean plot of native soil before adding topping.

I think I am going to sod now after advice on it being to late to sow and have success.

I really wanted to know best way you to remove and area of well grown in grass, unwanted clumping fescue, and other thin grassy weeds.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Also here is the forecast , just because of a lot of people have ore conceived notions of Denver weather. Doesn't TTTF germinate fast ?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Either with sod or seed, you need to remove the dead lawn from there and expose the soil. There are multiple methods to do this. A trimmer seems to be the fastest for me. Do not place sod on top of the grass. The dead grass will rot right at the locations of the sod roots.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> ksturfguy said:
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> > someguybri said:
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I knew what you meant. I've done it both ways. I got a big property so last couple falls I've done a test plot. Last year I sprayed, next day I scalped it, applied top soil over the "good as dead" area, seeded and got good results.

This year, I did a much larger area 10x30 and I sprayed, waited 2 days to see what spots I missed and sprayed again. I think it was 5 or 6 days after I initially sprayed I went in and scalped, applied top soil, seed, fert, and thin layer of peat moss. I didn't buy enough top soil so only 1/2 of the 10x30 plot was covered in it, the rest I just applied the seed in the scalped area. Today is day 9 and germination rates appear the same.

So yes if the OP wanted to he could definitely seed tomorrow and be fine, especially if he applies a good layer of soil. The area he killed out was a lot thicker then the area I killed so getting that seed to soil contact would be a little harder for him if he didn't apply any top soil.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> Either with sod or seed, you need to remove the dead lawn from there and expose the soil. There are multiple methods to do this. A trimmer seems to be the fastest for me. Do not place sod on top of the grass. The dead grass will rot right at the locations of the sod roots.


Thanks, I'll take the trimmer to it tomorrow.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

someguybri said:


> Also here is the forecast , just because of a lot of people have ore conceived notions of Denver weather. Doesn't TTTF germinate fast?


Yes, TTTF germinates and establishes quite quickly.

From looking at different lawn journals here, it seems that by 30 days, TTTF has regularly been mown about 2-4 times at a height of about 3.5" and is looking pretty much like a normal lawn.

At 30 days, KBG is lucky to have been mown twice at 1.5" or 2.0" and still looks pretty fragile. (It's tougher than it looks, but it definitely doesn't look like mature grass yet.)


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Update : scalped area again but it wasn't getting down to soil on my lowest level. So took g-mans suggestion and used weed trimmer. Took a lot longer than expected to rip it all up.

Leveled raked , added topper , folded that into native soil. Seeded and watered. We'll see if it's to late in season. If we get a late frost here in Denver I should be good otherwise sod in spring. Thanks for all the suggestions.

Kind of looks like I buried someone in my backyard.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Good prep. I would take the rake to that area and get the seed into the soil, then walk all over the soil. This will ensure the seeds are surrounded by soil, instead of just being on top of the soil. Keep it moist.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Looks good, good luck to ya! Did you put down any starter fert or going to wait until after germination?


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Thanks - I did rake it in lightly , then applied more seed and re raked, more seed, re raked

Would walking on it make it to compact ?

I guess not if your recommending it


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> Looks good, good luck to ya! Did you put down any starter fert or going to wait until after germination?


I didn't add starter fertilizer , the topper said it had fertilizer in it. I did do my monthly nitrogen blitz today from gmans guide but made sure I used edge guard to avoid the new seed area.

I meant to put down tenacity with seeding it but delivery (of tenacity) got delayed till this Thursday. Does anyone know if it's okay to put tenacity down on new seedlings post germination ?


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Also, as for watering. I know to keep moist but don't have experience doing this besides what I've done in the past just guessing.

I have fixed heads in the back yard. I set them to go off 4 times per day starting at 8 am and going every 3 hours for 6 minutes last watering at 5 pm. Let me know if I should add or change Times. The fixed heads put out an inch of Water in 47 minutes.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Normally the seed bed is rolled with a hand roller to ensure seed to soil contact. Since you have a small area, walk on it.

Tenacity goes down at seed down or 30days post germination, but not in between.

For watering, you will need to see what works and keeps it moist. Too many factors that will change as the weather changes.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> Normally the seed bed is rolled with a hand roller to ensure seed to soil contact. Since you have a small area, walk on it.
> 
> Tenacity goes down at seed down or 30days post germination, but not in between.
> 
> For watering, you will need to see what works and keeps it moist. Too many factors that will change as the weather changes.


Got it thanks !


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Looks like I'm in trouble.

I knowingly took a gamble doing this small area reno this late.

Will need to have irrigation blown out if this Monday Tuesday forecast doesn't change.

Any thoughts on what this will do to my TTTF seeded this past Saturday?

Any thoughts on what I can do or is it sod time in spring ?


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

That is air temp, not soil temp. Get a meat thermometer and stick it 6" into the soil to see what temps your irrigation is seeing. Worst case, remove the last spray head from each zone and blow them out the best you can with a borrowed/rented compressor. Repressurise when temps improve.

Finally, as g-man and others reminded me a week ago in a similar situation, cool season grass is not killed by frost and you will likely be okay. I was after hitting 30F overnight on TTTF/KBG. Just keep off of frosted grass or you will cause cell damage with your weight.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Just curious if there are any residual issues from him spraying straight round up concentrate on the area? I know you can spray it at seed down but that is mixed. I'm not sure of the timing of it all but it looks like he sprayed 2 apps of mixed and one app of undiluted concentrate in a short window.


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

TN Hawkeye said:


> Just curious if there are any residual issues from him spraying straight round up concentrate on the area? I know you can spray it at seed down but that is mixed. I'm not sure of the timing of it all but it looks like he sprayed 2 apps of mixed and one app of undiluted concentrate in a short window.


Man, I didn't even catch that. But it's a good question. Assuming he watered that area well, it 'should' wash down into the soil and run off. But I'm not sure.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

To clarify : I first sprayed a hand held roundup pump and spray pre mixed solution. It is more for spot treatment with very bad coverage. Then I went and got concentrate (glyphosate)(bc I didn't know it takes 5 days to kill). I diluted that according to direction in a 2 gallon pump sprayer and repsprayed (on Friday) I ripped everything up (Saturday)Watered lightly. Added topper, folded that in, and seeded. I was under the impresssion that wouldn't mess with germination. Could be wrong. I could always water this small area with a a hose if I have to blow out irrigation early. Thanks for feedback, never thought to check 6" under for irrigation temps, I always took the approach when air temp is below 32 to blow out. Better safe than sorry but if it's over precautious I might hang in there a bit longer.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Blowing it is better, but you don't have to. The water has to freeze in the pipes. The backflow preventer and exposed pipes will need some protection (insulation) or removal. You can also run zones to move water around. City water is warm and will prevent freezing if it is flowing.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

I think I'm just going to get it blown out. Invested to much in the irrigation to gamble. Forecast has shifted back to over freezing so that's good.

Also- as for the glyphosate affecting germination -which I hope Isn't the case.

I also seeded a 2x2 foot area that was bare so no glyphosate down there. That will serve as a good control to see if that area germinates and the reno area does not.

Thanks as always


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Gly is absorbed thru the leaves and not the roots. It should be fine.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

g-man said:


> Gly is absorbed thru the leaves and not the roots. It should be fine.


I sprayed my test area that I that I posted about in my lawn journal with concentrate 5 days before seeding and everything is growing fine.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

someguybri said:


> Thanks for feedback, never thought to check 6" under for irrigation temps, I always took the approach when air temp is below 32 to blow out. Better safe than sorry but if it's over precautious I might hang in there a bit longer.


What you describe (blowing out the lines before any freezing temperatures) is the absolutely safe thing to do.

However, I seem to now be a serial renovator (5 of last 6 years), so I'm always looking to keep the irrigation system available as late as possible. The published "average first frost" for my area is Sept 26th, and I usually have the irrigation system blown out in the last week of October (yes, 4-5 weeks after that average first frost.)

If overnight temps are going to be below 25F, I'll toss a blanket over the above-ground backflow preventer to help reduce heat loss in the above-ground copper pipes. One night that was forecast to be only 14F overnight I also left the faucet at the backflow preventer just barely open enough to have a steady drip. It actually only got down to 16F. I realize we play it a lot closer to the edge than most are comfortable with, but we haven't had freeze damage yet. I suppose, eventually, our time will come if we keep rolling the dice too many times...

With a forecasted high that was 32F or less, I'd be more concerned.

However, whatever you decide, it's your lawn, so I'm not going to fault you for blowing the system out earlier! Similarly, if it freezes up on you, that was your decision to wait later!


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> Gly is absorbed thru the leaves and not the roots. It should be fine.


That's what I thought you had told me earlier so felt confident


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Gly is absorbed thru the leaves and not the roots. It should be fine.
> ...


Good to hear , hope 1 day after works as well


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> someguybri said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for feedback, never thought to check 6" under for irrigation temps, I always took the approach when air temp is below 32 to blow out. Better safe than sorry but if it's over precautious I might hang in there a bit longer.
> ...


You like to live dangerously Ken. Lol -This may boost my confidence. Luckily a lawn care business is a few houses down from mine so if I need a last minute irrigation blow out I have that option.

Thanks


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Can't remember what seed blend you went with but if it had any TTTF or PRG you should be seeing germination here soon. If it was all KBG then maybe another couple days. Getting close though hopefully.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> Can't remember what seed blend you went with but if it had any TTTF or PRG you should be seeing germination here soon. If it was all KBG then maybe another couple days. Getting close though hopefully.


Yeah I went with 100% TTTF regenerate

No germination yet. But seeds look like that are pointing more up and about to. Fingers crossed


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Also seeing what looks like the old grassy weed/ clumping fescue (glyphosate'd heavily earlier) sprouting through the topper. I had meant to put down tenacity with seed but it didn't arrive in time and I was up against the clock with the weather. I know it's not seed bc when I go to pull one out the clump is with it. Thoughts? Wait 30 days post germinate and hit with tenacity ? Or tenacity now since it hasn't germinated (guessing it will today or tomorrow).

Any help/ suggestions appreciated.

Note : control area with no gly hasn't Germanited either but same seeds pointing slightly up grabbing the soil look(not sure if that is a real thing or just me looking at the seed too much every day all day , (I work from Home)


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Hey,

Wanted to re ask above question after not hearing back from anyone? Still no germination , seed down 8 days ago , tttf regenerate . Thoughts ?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm confused. I see germination in your images.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> I'm confused. I see germination in your images.


That's the old turf regrowing that I had hit with gly, I pulled on some of the seedlings and they were coming from a clustered dead root. I pulled one out to show in the pictures. Not sure what happened , hopefully the actually seed goes soon but it's getting colder. Day 8 today and still no noticeable germination from any seeds. Just the old stuff


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Do you still have some of your seed? If so grab a cup, place some cotton and some seed. Keep it moist 24/7 to test if you have bad seed.

I think I'm seeing germinated seeds I your 3rd image.

Could you describe your current irrigation scheme? From previous post it look like you were blowing the irrigation. Have you manage to keep the area moist 24/7?

Did you use any product with herbicide? Lawn and weed?

Did you pressed the seeds into the soil?


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> Do you still have some of your seed? If so grab a cup, place some cotton and some seed. Keep it moist 24/7 to test if you have bad seed.
> 
> I think I'm seeing germinated seeds I your 3rd image.
> 
> ...


Irrigation is still on, seeds are kept moist 24/7 with short (3-4 mins fixed head) light watering 5-6 times a day. I only used gly. I planted Saturday and sat night I saw you recommended to step on seeds. I did that Sunday morning. Hoping it's not bad seed , will check


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> Do you still have some of your seed? If so grab a cup, place some cotton and some seed. Keep it moist 24/7 to test if you have bad seed.
> 
> I think I'm seeing germinated seeds I your 3rd image.
> 
> ...


Just went outside again to look. It seems all the seeds have rooted down and have a red growth just starting. Can't tell if this just happened last night but I think it might have.

No green yet but just red everywhere , is this bad seed or the beginning ?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Can't wait to see an answer on this. Never seen that before but maybe it's normal and I just don't pay close enough attention.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> Can't wait to see an answer on this. Never seen that before but maybe it's normal and I just don't pay close enough attention.


Seems weird to me. Gly was put down day before seeding. Could be bad sad , or completely normal for TTTF regenerate. We'll see I guess


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The red/purple happens in new seeds. They dont have access to all the nutrients (NPK/chlorophyll/etc) yet and are using what they had in reserves.

https://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/cool-season#GROWTH


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> The red/purple happens in new seeds. They dont have access to all the nutrients (NPK/chlorophyll/etc) yet and are using what they had in reserves.
> 
> https://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/cool-season#GROWTH


Good news ! Thanks G man !!


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Any germination over the last couple days?


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

So wanted to send and update. Had light snow Wednesday but nothing stuck. G man was right about the red/brown. They started to show green on Wednesday. Guessing the growth is slow because of the cold nights. Irrigation was blow out Tuesday . Hoping this survives the cold, I water by hand throughout the day to get the rest of the seeds going but most of the seeds have already. (Germinated)


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Hopefully will warm back up again for a couple weeks to help it fill in.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> Hopefully will warm back up again for a couple weeks to help it fill in.


Hope so - if not, learning experience. Sod in spring


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Wanted to post an update on this being that everyone helped me a lot.

8 days after I planted we got hit with a cold front here in Denver. Had to irrigation blown out. We had about 5 inches of snow.

This whole mini reno was a learning experience.

Had germination post snow so that was great. Still patchy will need to add more seed not sure exactly when I will do it. I also learned to do a better job covering good grass as it appears the grass around the edges got some glyphosate on it and is now dead. Will need to rip out all the brown areas and reseed as well.

As always any advice appreciated and thanks for all your help. Still looks better then the grassy weed that was there before.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Try not to walk on it (or dogs) over the winter. It should be fine next year.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

Sounds good thanks


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

someguybri said:


> Sounds good thanks


Looks great.
So looks like ~ a month from Glypho to mostly regrowth?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Was wondering how that turned out with all the cold weather you got. Good work.


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

yeah about that - sucks there was some bleeding out of the gly around edges - otherwise it would have looked a lot better.

It's all a learning experience for me - next time


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## someguybri (Sep 12, 2018)

ksturfguy said:


> Was wondering how that turned out with all the cold weather you got. Good work.


thanks - ill keep updating - hopefully spring seed to patch brown areas doesn't get to crushed by summer. might try to some late winter seeding to get the earliest start possible. we'll see


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