# Thoughts on a fall reno



## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

So last fall I did a backyard reno over 2-3k sq ft to nuke triv.

Aug 22 Round Up Quick Pro
Aug 31 triple dethatch with the Greenworks, bag with mower
Sep 6 triple dethatch with the Greenworks, bag with mower, spread 3 yards of loam, spread midnight KBG seed with a spreader, starter fert with mesotrione, Milo, cover with peat moss

I battles heavy rains and flooding until November, and after every rain, i would wait 2 days to dry up, rough up the bare spots that didn't germinate, spread seed, and cover with peat moss. This got annoying as I ended up doing it 6 times, after every thunderstorm. I have very good coverage now, and only had to do minimal spring seeding.

For my upcoming reno for the remaining 6k of backlawn, I'd like to do it smarter this time.

Options:
1 - Quick Pro 3k sq ft this fall, and repeat what I did this year, do the next 3k next year
2 - mow very very low, seed midnight with the Home Depot overseeder, starter fert with mesotrione, Milo, cover with peat moss: https://www.homedepot.com/tool-truck-rental/Overseeder/TS-20HD/
3 - mow very very low, triple dethatch, seed midnight with my spreader, and cover with compost via a compost spreader, then starter fert with mesotrione, Milo, cover with peat 
4 - combination of the above

Most of my turf is good, but I have lots of thatch and dollar spot in my non-reno'ed area, while the Midnight is going strong


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Option 1.

I wouldn't waste midnight seed on an overseed.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Last night. Looks darker b/c it was 7:30PM


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Last week, 3pm


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Last fall


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

After loam and seed and peat moss


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Sinclair said:


> Option 1.
> 
> I wouldn't waste midnight seed on an overseed.


How do I avoid the wash out? 
I was thinking of this:
https://www.amazon.com/EZ-Straw-Seeding-Mulch-Tack/dp/B07NCM9QKQ


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## SullyCT79 (May 14, 2018)

MassHole said:


> Sinclair said:
> 
> 
> > Option 1.
> ...


EZ Straw is a great product. Couple that with Soil Moist and your grass will come up pretty quick in the fall. I would also apply an app of Tenacity before you seed


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Good grief, man! It shouldn't be THAT difficult, right? 

First frost in NE Massachusetts is around October 15.

Midnight seed down Labor Day weekend. Tenacity first. Then seed. Then peat moss.

It starts like this...

The Olde Stuff has to go! July 4th weekend, kill it all, let God sort it out. First scalp 'n' bag. Then rake 'n' bag... like crazy... to expose as much soil as I can. Get medieval on it.

The Olde Stuff keeps dying. Keep rakin', man. Don't stop. Like Ringo Starr said, "I've got blisters on my fingers!"

You will just have blisters. I will have gangrenous, pulpy masses at the ends of my arms. I will self-medicate with copious amounts of amber-colored liquids.

Water with a vengeance straight out of the Bible. Kill whatever comes up again until seed down. Keep rakin' 'n' baggin'... Because, you know, the Olde Stuff don' wanna die...

Seed down is Labor Day weekend... Get my spreader out and hope for the best. Rake that in using my teeth if I have to.

And then collapse.

Day-dream in hazy near-comatose condition brought about by misapplication of amber-colored liquids. Still...

Keep watering like you read about until germination. Taper off until normal watering schedule and then... it sleeps... until spring.

I cannot sleep... I must not sleep!

That's not so hard, right?

Spring comes and it will look like crap. Prodiamine and normal cultural practices. Triv will show up. Nuke spots or decide if do-over is required.

I think to myself, "Man, this is harder than I thought it would be!"

I realize that I said that out loud. I am talking to myself. Babbling, really. They're coming to take me away (ha ha).

I'm the only one who remembers that song. It's real bad. No matter...

KBG should spread in if everything I've read is to be believed.

Like Cheech and Chong said, "It's just grass, maaan... "

This stuff WANTS to grow. Real bad. Key is to keep the mayhem from growing along with it.

Larger areas... like much bigger than my 2,500 square. I pray for you.

Murph


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

My main advice here is to NOT waste your money on that Home Depot overseeder. Look at how it works. Seed in the front, blades in the back. It's not doing anything magical. The seed isn't getting placed in grooves cut by the knifes, it drops it first! Rent a dethatcher and hit it hard in 2-3 directions, pick up all debris then broadcast seed on top.

The only overseeders worth using have discs and seed tubes that drop the seed between the discs and into the soil.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Kmartel said:


> My main advice here is to NOT waste your money on that Home Depot overseeder. Look at how it works. Seed in the front, blades in the back. It's not doing anything magical. The seed isn't getting placed in grooves cut by the knifes, it drops it first! Rent a dethatcher and hit it hard in 2-3 directions, pick up all debris then broadcast seed on top.
> 
> The only overseeders worth using have discs and seed tubes that drop the seed between the discs and into the soil.


Yea, I agree on the Home Depot Overseeder. Hence why I was thinking of doing the compost roller and covering the seed with 1/4" to get better seed coverage, and to protect better vs. washout.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

SullyCT79 said:


> EZ Straw is a great product. Couple that with Soil Moist and your grass will come up pretty quick in the fall. I would also apply an app of Tenacity before you seed


How long does it take to break down? Did you have a slope?


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

MassHole said:


> Sinclair said:
> 
> 
> > Option 1.
> ...


Whenever I decide to do a reno on my backyard, I think I'll just leave the dead grass attached instead of scalping down to bare dirt on the sloped areas, then spread seed and peat over it. I figure that should provide enough stability.

If the rain is hard enough, it will wash out pretty much anything.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Sinclair said:


> Whenever I decide to do a reno on my backyard, I think I'll just leave the dead grass attached instead of scalping down to bare dirt on the sloped areas, then spread seed and peat over it. I figure that should provide enough stability.
> 
> If the rain is hard enough, it will wash out pretty much anything.


I sooo agree. I know I over-think this...

The seed is going to grow as long as it contacts the soil and I keep it watered. The trick is stopping everything ELSE from growing.

How do I do THAT?...

Like @Oregonseed said... glyphosate and hoeing. Works 100% of the time.

When I read that, I knew exactly what my plan was going to be. I'm glad he wrote that. It was a great reality check.

When I do mine this fall, I'm going to kill everything that's growing, disturb the soil as deeply as I can (not sure if I have the strength to hoe 2,500 square but we'll see), kill anything ELSE that comes up, and sow some seed.

The seed will sprout. Guaranteed.

B


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> The seed is going to grow as long as it contacts the soil and I keep it watered. The trick is stopping everything ELSE from growing.
> 
> How do I do THAT?...


Tenacity.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Sinclair said:


> BXMurphy said:
> 
> 
> > The seed is going to grow as long as it contacts the soil and I keep it watered. The trick is stopping everything ELSE from growing.
> ...


Beauty! No hoeing?... GOOD! I knew there was an easier way.

How come some people are dragging out bulldozers, front-end loaders, and tractors? Is that because of the triv and thatch?

For the slope?... consider mulch... or a bulldozer... I would probably start with mulch, though.

Mulch is not for me but some people swear by it.

I've seen highway crews use some sort of netting on deep gullies and steep inclines. It's probably made of jute. That traps the soil and seed in place to prevent erosion until the roots grab hold.

I would think the thatch would hold the seed on a slight slope. If not, try mixing some soil and peat. Sow seed on bare ground. Lightly rake in. Sprinkle soil and peat mixture lightly over top. Very lightly. Then lightly sprinkle peat over all to finish.

Should work... you know... on paper, at least...

B


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

What does hoeing do? I'm proud to say I've never used a hoe....ever.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Bennies of hoeing... GTS.

It is your best friend around the yard. A go-to tool. It takes you beyond spray 'n' pray.

B


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Anyone had any luck with a compost spreader? I like the idea of adding OM on top of the seed to cover it and to add to the soil.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

MassHole said:


> Anyone had any luck with a compost spreader? I like the idea of adding OM on top of the seed to cover it and to add to the soil.


 I'm using this spreader for a compost and peatmoss all the time work great.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Kissfromnick said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone had any luck with a compost spreader? I like the idea of adding OM on top of the seed to cover it and to add to the soil.
> ...


Excellent. Can you give me some details? Did you need to add the bungie cord? Where did you get compost from? Where did you buy it?


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

MassHole said:


> Kissfromnick said:
> 
> 
> > MassHole said:
> ...


Spreader got from online store as I remember it was $99 delivered. Last spring did 3 yards of compost for backyard and at fall seeding 7 yards for front yard. Compost in my areas $35 per yard at local landscaping supply. Lawn tractor with cart help lots to bring material. If you decide to go with peatmoss Remember it's good to have peatmoss in ground not on ground. By the way how's your battle With poa T?


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

I wouldn't recommend EZ Straw or any other bagged straw product. Even if they say "weed free", they probably aren't. It would suck to spend money on sod quality weed-free seed but then bring in weeds via straw.

I'd vote for seeding, top dressing with peatmoss, and then using a roller to roll it in (you can rent these) to get good seed to soil contact. The peatmoss helps with that too, and it also helps retain water. If you don't want to rent or buy a roller, that's fine too, it will still work.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

What happens to seed that is prevented from sprouting via prodiamine/Tenacity? Does it rot and die?

Here's the thought for a reno...

First, glyphosate will kill weeds to the root. Even triv and all the nasties that are hard to kill.

Second, any new nasty seed is prevented from sprouting by prodiamine. That nasty, surface seed should be dead by the time of reno date. Either from prodiamine, decay, or subsequent herbicide treatments.

Third, there is a 10 year(?) bank of seeds waiting to sprout in the soil.

Fourth, new reno seed WILL grow after prodiamine wears off if... it contacts the ground.

The thought is kill everything (rake, etc.), do NOT disturb seed bank, and all will be well except for viable roots (not seed) still living underground.

Curious,
Murph


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> What happens to seed that is prevented from sprouting via prodiamine/Tenacity? Does it rot and die?
> 
> Here's the thought for a reno...
> 
> ...


Both prodiamine and tenacity allow germination to happen. Prodiamine prevents root establishment so the weed dies before you see it. Tenacity seems to behave nearly the same as when it is applied as a post-em -- you'll see weeds emerging bleached, and they'll die quickly. This is good, because it means seeds don't get "banked" while waiting for the pre-em barrier to wear off.

For this reason you probably don't want prodiamine "active" at seed down time. It's best to just do tenacity on seed down day and then a followup app 4 weeks later.

Disturbing the soil isn't too big of a deal if you're watering to coax some weed growth and doing multiple rounds of glyphosate. I probably wouldn't do any soil disturbing work (there's normally no need; dethatching and aerating aren't necessary for success), but if I did have a reason I wouldn't avoid it.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

ryeguy said:


> Both prodiamine and tenacity allow germination to happen. Prodiamine prevents root establishment so the weed dies before you see it. Tenacity seems to behave nearly the same as when it is applied as a post-em -- you'll see weeds emerging bleached, and they'll die quickly. This is good, because it means seeds don't get "banked" while waiting for the pre-em barrier to wear off.
> 
> For this reason you probably don't want prodiamine "active" at seed down time. It's best to just do tenacity on seed down day and then a followup app 4 weeks later.
> 
> Disturbing the soil isn't too big of a deal if you're watering to coax some weed growth and doing multiple rounds of glyphosate. I probably wouldn't do any soil disturbing work (there's normally no need; dethatching and aerating aren't necessary for success), but if I did have a reason I wouldn't avoid it.


Perfect.

Yeah... I've given this some thought after reading some of the medieval things guys are doing to their lawns with a reno. Totally not necessary.

Just kill stuff... double-tap for residual stuff that doesn't get killed on the first go-round. Rake up the corpses (chalk outline for effect, if you like), and then sow the seed.

Water and smile like the cat who ate the canary. Bob's your uncle!

Murph


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

ryeguy said:


> For this reason you probably don't want prodiamine "active" at seed down time. It's best to just do tenacity on seed down day and then a followup app 4 weeks later.


Which, by the way, works out just nicely if you have a "standard" eight-month growing season through April-November.

You'll put down a four-month app of prodiamine mid-April when the Chrysanthemum blooms. It'll wear off mid-August when you're already busy killing things for a beginning September seed down. Then you'll have a couple of months of prime, cool weather to baby some new seedlings. All the while, you're locking out weeds with your Tenacity.

What's not to like?

B


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