# help with lawn renovation



## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

When I moved in this house the home builder just put in some tall fescue mix with Rye sod, over the last 6 years I only fertilized 2 or 3 times a year with ammonia nitrate, or whatever cheap fertilizer I can find high in nitrogen. Now that I got the backyard and everything done like I wanted I started to pay attention to the front yard, I decided to go with Milorganite and go organic, but the lawn just never looked good. So I did a soil test, the results came back that I was extremely high in magnesium, sodium, off the chart... The PH at 5.26 the NPK very low.. My soil is probably about 85% clay, So I use glyphosate and killed off the lawn, I'm planning on putting at least 2 inches of humas in, I'm going to rototill it in, along with some calctic lime.. I'm planning on going at least 6 inches deep. My questions are, will the humas bring up the pH ?? is 2 inches too much ?? how can I get rid of all the sodium I'm sure it was from the fertilizer ??? Thank you in advance..


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to the forum.

Could you post your soil results? Also what is your location in California (main city to know the weather)?

I would advice against rototill. It never settles correctly and you get a bumpy mess.


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## jimmy (Jul 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> I would advice against rototill. It never settles correctly and you get a bumpy mess.


Plus it is way more work.

Welcome!


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

I definitely have to rototill I just have so much clay with zero organic matter. plus I will be planting Kentucky Bluegrass against everybody's advice. and now that I'm retired I can give it all the attention it needs. I'm in northern California Oakley, And it definitely gets very hot here in July August. I found a very good heat and drought tolerant KBG seed with excellent resistance to disease. and I just can't stand tall fescue.. but anyway any pointers I would appreciate.. here's some pictures of my test results.. Thank you


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Are you planning to mix in a lot of compost and also have a way to rake it flat?

Now to the soil results. First I will quote:


Ridgerunner said:


> There is a soil test being promoted (on youtube, The Grass Nut?) and marketed as Soil Savvy. As Soil Savvy/Unibest is not particularly forthcoming on their site with any details regarding the chemistry, lab procedures or results of any studies performed, it is impossible to make any assessment of the accuracy and validity of this product and none is intended in making this post. However, the point of caution: Even if this is an accurate and valid test for determining soil nutrients, Soil Savvy (when contacted) has stated that the recommendations are for one application only and that a new test should be performed prior to making each of any future applications. That would require performing at a minimum, two tests, and possibly many more before nutrients reach desired levels.


I would contact your local university extension office to do a proper test. It would likely be cheaper and more accurate.


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Roto tilling can be a great way to incorporate stuff but consider the consistency of your soil. If it is heavy clay, tilling can be a complete disaster. In order to dig it up, it has to be wet, in order to break it up it has to be dry. So I would definitely imagine what that might look like. If it's heavy, maybe a better way would be to heavily core aerate, then top dress with some organic matter. Either way be prepared for some increased weed pressure.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Ok, thanks guys.. I'm going to try to get the soil moisture just perfect before rototilling in the humas. I also read if it's too dry or too wet you can harm the soil.. As far as the testing goes I tried the university it was just way too much paperwork.. they didn't make anything very clear same with the Sacramento agriculture office..


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I can offer some suggestions based off of what your results are. You're going to need a lot of lime to bring up the pH to make it to where the nutrients that ARE available to be used can actually be used by the plants. I'd also suggest adding gypsum to your soil, since this will help with flocculation, and improve the overall condition of the soil. Since you're doing a renovation, and are going to till, this would be a perfect time to incorporate these two things into your soil. Keep in mind that the amount of lime it takes to raise your pH level 1 point is logarithmic, meaning it takes a LOT more to bring your pH 1 point (as in your case) versus bringing it up 1/2 of a point, something to the tune of 4x materials required. The choice of material you use for your lime is what you have available, i.e. Dolomitic lime vs. calcitic lime. The choice should be based on availability and price, as the effects are going to take some time to become evident in a soil analysis.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Thank you colonel I'm going to go with a calcitic lime, the Dolomitic lime has just has too much calcium and magnesium as you can see I'm off the hook with calcium and magnesium. I spoke to the company ancap the makers of calcitic lime. They suggested I till it in.. and do another soil test in a few months they said there's would start working within 2 weeks. Plus I figured with all the organic matter I'm adding to the soil it would help also stabilize the pH. I was thinking about using gypsum but it's just too much sodium which I'm also off the scale with and it contains too much calcium and magnesium. Which really puts me back to my first question is two inches of humas too much?? And will it help raise the pH.. I believe humus is supposed to be 7.0 ph but I cannot find a straight answer anywhere on what humas levels are.. I guess it's because they can be so many different factors and varieties


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Suggest you read the second page of that soil test report.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Of course I read the second page not sure what you're trying to get to??


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Could you post the second page?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The second page is online. They basically take a disclaimer that the results are not accurate for the pH. Which begs the question, what is accurate about it. I'm personally reluctant to provide guidance from the report since it could do harm.

https://unibestinc.com/files/media/316/sampleforwebsitepage2081116.png


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

MikeD said:


> Thank you colonel I'm going to go with a calcitic lime, the Dolomitic lime has just has too much calcium and magnesium as you can see I'm off the hook with calcium and magnesium. I spoke to the company ancap the makers of calcitic lime. They suggested I till it in.. and do another soil test in a few months they said there's would start working within 2 weeks. Plus I figured with all the organic matter I'm adding to the soil it would help also stabilize the pH. I was thinking about using gypsum but it's just too much sodium which I'm also off the scale with and it contains too much calcium and magnesium. Which really puts me back to my first question is two inches of humas too much?? And will it help raise the pH.. I believe humus is supposed to be 7.0 ph but I cannot find a straight answer anywhere on what humas levels are.. I guess it's because they can be so many different factors and varieties


It's really difficult to tell what the chemical composition of your OM that you're going to be adding is unless the manufacturer provides the test results. Just like the 10 yards of compost that I purchased from my local supplier brought in, I asked him what was in it. They have a sod farm, and they use the clippings from their farm, as well as waste from a local cotton gin. As a side note, the stuff holds a LOT of water, which has been great considering the area that I'm in is about to get hit from the remnants of Harvey, and possibly Irma (I pray not). I digress; I asked him if he had it tested, and he said that he didn't. Common sense would dictate the supposition that there's going to be some anomaly when it comes to the composition of the OM that you're going to use. If it comes from a swamp, i.e. peat moss, it's going to have a pH that's generally in the range of 4.4 (according to Google search). That's going to really mess up your situation, and counteract any lime that you add to your soil.

Calcitic lime is quicker acting than dolomitic lime, but keep in mind, any liming that you do to your soil to raise the pH is going to take a lot of time, on the scale of 9-12 months, or longer, depending on the severity of your situation. I will say that with the Soil Savvy results are not really that good when it comes to knowing what the real results are. I don't profess to be a smart man when it comes to knowing the types of tests that are done, but when I showed the results to my extension agent, he said "Well, that's not really a good test." :lol:

What I'm going to do for you is call my local extension agent, who is a registered soil scientist who lived in CA before he moved here earlier this year. Let me see what he suggests, and get back to you.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Wow that's awesome Colonel thanks a lot and for all the information.. you bring up some really good points but as far as soil Savvy goes I did talk to them in length over the phone about their pH levels, what he said is there just about 0.5 lower than other results due to the leaching of the plastic capsule they put inside their test sample sent to you.. I would love to send away for another sample test with another company or university and see how much difference there is.. I'm also going to talk to the nursery that has the humas for sale and see if they have any further information. BTW I still have two more soil Savvy test sitting here at home not used and payed for, i was going to use for future tests. and I also have the exact soil I sent to soil savvy in a bag. The guy from uncap said there calcitic lime breaks down as fast as two weeks, and most likely would have raised my pH by 1 Point by then.. now I'm starting to have doubts about that.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I wouldn't doubt what the rep from Unibest said about calcitic lime breaking down quickly, because it does. That's why I would suggest that you would apply both calcitic and dolomitic lime at the same time. Matt Martin, aka The Grass Factor has a great video explaining the difference between the two types of lime. Check out his video.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Colonel, I love Matt from the grass Factor, in fact I've been watching his live feeds on Saturday last week Sunday, matter fact somebody was on their live with the name "colonel" was that you?? He's definitely a excellent source of great information. and I actually asked him that exact question about lime. He said because I had so much calcium and magnesium that I should definitely stick with Calcitic lime. I watched all his YouTube videos some two or three times he has so much information. It's hard to take in, all the info at same time.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

MikeD said:


> Colonel, I love Matt from the grass Factor, in fact I've been watching his live feeds on Saturday last week Sunday, matter fact somebody was on their live with the name "colonel" was that you?? He's definitely a excellent source of great information. and I actually asked him that exact question about lime. He said because I had so much calcium and magnesium that I should definitely stick with Calcitic lime. I watched all his YouTube videos some two or three times he has so much information. It's hard to take in, all the info at same time.


Yep, that was me on the live stream that he had prior to his Q&A session this past Saturday with Pete!  I talked to my extension agent today, and he explained a few things to me that I'll pass along to you. I explained that you had the Soil Savvy test, and where you lived. I also told him, according to your posts, that you're planning on using humus to incorporate some OM into your soil. He asked if it was humus, or compost; to that extent he said he would recommend compost over humus, because it can take "an extremely long time, on the order of decades, for humus to break down, and see any noticeable benefits from incorporation into his soil." He suggested that you look to using compost.

He also said that regarding your high Na content, the area by the bay is always going to exhibit high concentrations of Na, due to your locale to the ocean, and the measurements that are on the test aren't out of the norm. We discussed how to raise your pH, and he agreed that it would be best to use both types to bring up your pH, and since you're dealing with such a small lot, it won't take much material to affect some change. Regarding your Mg and Ca ratio, it would be something to be concerned about if your ratio dropped below 2:1, so you wouldn't see any detrimental effects by adding either source of lime to your soil.

We talked at length about a humic and fulvic acid, and he mentioned that there is a century plot, not too far north of where you live. They're on about year 30 of a century long test of this area where they're trying to study the reintroduction of carbon back into the soil, and to date, they've only measured about a 2% increase in the return with the utilization of humic and fulvic acid. It's pretty interesting stuff.

He did say that the Master Gardeners there are pretty active, and a quick search turned up that you can go talk to one at several locations through the month. This Saturday, they're going to be at the Pittsburgh Farmers Market, which would be close to your city. I'd suggest you ride over there, and beat the bushes and get face to face with someone. Keep in mind, it's your tax dollars that pay their salaries!


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

I really like this humic acid and where they're trying to take it now it seems very interesting I've been doing a little bit more research on it also. Pittsburg Farmers Market is not too far from me, thanks for the information I think I will go check this out.. my nursery says its humus soil. They don't have compost because this works much better in our area due to the high clay content. It's a mother father operation I was going to go down there this weekend and see if they have any test results on that soil I know it's black and Rich looking. I really appreciate this Colonel thank you so much for all the information I'll try to keep you all up to date and I'm sure I'm going to run into some more problems..


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

I just got back from talking with the nursery about the humus soil, they did not know the pH so they called the person they get it from, and they said its at 7.65 so my thinking is if I rototill the humus in 4 inches deep or 5 inchs that should offset my low PH and bring it up to about 6.4 fingers crossed I'm going to give this a try.. I will retest in about a month or so..


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