# Losing Grass Battle



## casesuzz (Jul 15, 2020)

OK, if anyone ever did his best to lay new grass seed - its me. Last year (Spring in Maryland) I hauled 8 yards of leaf grow onto my back yard and threw down Pennington tall fescue grass seed to grow . Let's just say it never took off and I was back to square one. Now my backyard soil is very sandy, part sun, part shade and I live in Annapolis area. In February this year I added lime to soil and then in late March I hauled in 12 yards of leaf grow, rototilled soil and sand and then seeded with Johnathon Green Ultra Black Beauty Tall fescue. Tall fescue was the recommended grass type for Maryland and J. G Black Beauty supposedly grows well in sand. Good news is in late April I had decent grass seed growing every where with very little weed activity. I watered continually (not too much) for two months and held off cutting grass until 4 inches high. Things looked really good and then summer heat started to hit and things went down hill quickly. During early May I used a grass seed starter fertilizer (Scott's with high nitrogen content) which didn't seem to do much. Then in mid-June I lightly added a fertilizer to feed grass and also kill off weeds.

Today July 15 my backyard grass looks awful. Maybe half grass, 1/3 brown patch fungus/dollar spot and 1/3 weeds/crab grass. I've watered in between rain storms - let's say twice a week, 45 minute watering for each section of lawn, I've read where it's not good to over water with brown patch fungus. Since grass is growing so slowly I have not cut grass in back yard for a month. It's as if the new grass seed stopped growing, brown patch fungus set in at several places and weeds now are starting to take over grass areas. In cooler weather things were growing great but over the last several weeks its been 90 degrees every day - day in day out with occasional thunder showers. Ground is soft ever since I retotilled back in March, but again added 12 yards of leaf grow. Previous year added 8 yards.

OK - so in summer and things are not looking great. My question to the board is - come Fall can I spread out more J.G. Black Beauty Ultra grass seed, water and then keep my fingers crossed it retakes and holds through winter. Should I change grass seed for late September spreading? So much work and such little results - and I feel its all "heat" related.

Any recommendations would be appreciated.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Well, unfortunately you just found out the hard way why you don't seed in the spring. You need well established grass with deep roots to make it through the summer heat, and pre-emergent to fight off the weeds. With a newly seeded lawn, you have neither deep roots, nor can you apply pre-emergent in a timely manner, and to add insult to injury, you have to water frequently to keep it alive which leads to fungus disease.

Cool season grasses like tall fescue and bluegrass are named so because they do well in cool weather and struggle during heat. Thus cool season grasses should be seeded in the fall. Regroup and plan for a proper seeding early September, or whenever it's appropriate for your area.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Welcome to TLF. First off, you should read this guide.

Spring seeding is high risk. If you don't get your new grass established before the heat of summer, it likely won't make it.

It sounds to me like you watered too frequently for too long and didn't cut the grass early enough in the process. Grass needs to be cut back to 2" early and often (3-4 mowings) before letting it go to your desired height of cut. Letting it get to 4" would have help contribute to your problem. In terms of watering, as the seed germinates, you need to cut back on the frequency but increase the duration. After about a month, I'm going to guess that you should really only have been watering once a week, maybe twice max.

Do you know how much water 45 minutes puts down on your lawn? Time is less important than actual inches on the ground. If not, you need to do an irrigation audit.

To be candid, I don't think all of your problems resulted from the heat. I think there were some bad practices early on in the Spring that contributed to your outcome.

I can get into all kinds of details about what you should do, but I highly suggest you read the over seed guide above and get an idea of sound grass growing practices.

As always, we are also here to help anyway we can.


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## casesuzz (Jul 15, 2020)

Appreciate replies but lets clear up a few facts. Fall is the best time to lay down grass seed, Spring is the second best time. No where have I read where laying new grass/grass seed in early Spring is the kiss of death. I have lots and lots of trees around my property (its a forest) and I didn't want to deal with falling leaves in fall. Secondly if you have new grass seed growing you need to water (religiously) every day if it doesn't rain. Not for a long time - but you water. I did that and new grass seed took off in late April. Lastly I don't over water. If it rains I don't water again for another four. five days. If its 90 plus degrees outside yea I'm going to water every four, five days or so if it doesn't rain. So sorry but Spring is an option for laying grass seed - and watering every four, five days is not over watering. We're talking a 1/3 or an acre and you can't water all of that with one sprinkler head.

Thanks for replies but seeding in Fall and water for 15 minutes every two weeks is not the answer I was looking for. Oh and I should mention the brown fungus patch was not from over watering. If anything it was from general heat and lack of water. Also, the two previous posts failed to address sandy soil as the culprit, though I agree J4cll that deep grass roots are the key to getting grass established long term. But you're telling me that grass seed that went down March 20th and started growing in Mid-April and then was cut in May and June is not enough time to get deep grass roots. Not sure I buy that math but let's just say not everyone can grow new grass seed in late September.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

It's not the Spring seeding should NEVER be done. But it is high risk. Riskier than the fall.

I apologize, when you said you watered continually for 2 months, I took that to mean every day for two months. If this is not the case, please accept my apology.

Nobody said anything about watering for 15 minutes every two weeks.

Look into seeding in August. Late September is probably too late for your area.

I have zero experience with sandy soil. Hence why I didn't address that issue.

Perhaps you should come into this forum with an open mind. You have received two quick responses that partly addressed some of your issues. You have just as quickly dismissed them. For the record @j4c11 is a very respected member here and his advice is highly regarded.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@casesuzz I'm going to be blunt before this escalates. You asked for advice and 42min later you are arguing the advice is wrong.

Spring seeding is doable, but hard like j4c11 explained. For Maryland, a 01sept seed down is a good time for seeds to establish and be ready for winter.


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## casesuzz (Jul 15, 2020)

Maybe the question should be asked is what percentage of bare lawns that are seeded in fall fully mature with minimal risk versus Spring planting. You'll find pretty much every new lawn grass source saying "fall" is the perfect time to lay new grass due to warm temperatures during the day and slightly cooler temps at night. But no where did I find any grass literature that said planting grass seed in Spring is a "no-no". Just saying that its really easy to throw out - "whoops you didn't plant in September", when maybe 40% of all. new lawns in the U.S. are started in the Spring.

Personally I believe several factors come into play when planting new grass seed and I think one of the Major difficulties is planting in sand. Even though over the last two years I added 20 yards of leaf grow. Also grass seed itself is a coin toss. You never know if you get a good blend or a bad one. The problems I'm experiencing are not due to what month I planted grass seed nor watering. I't something else - which other posters might bring to my attention.


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## SJ Lawn (May 7, 2018)

@casesuzz "Dog days of summer".....Even mature and established lawns suffer in July and August. New seedlings are normally more successful at late summer and early fall because the new grass will have TWO cool growing seasons (fall and spring) before it encounters its FIRST period of HEAT STRESS.


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## SJ Lawn (May 7, 2018)

@casesuzz Take a look at NTEP (National Turfgrass Evaluation Program) website. Rutgers University by me seeds in September when they start their trials because they know they will have better chances of establishment.


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## SJ Lawn (May 7, 2018)

casesuzz said:


> ....Personally I believe several factors come into play when planting new grass seed and I think one of the Major difficulties is planting in sand.


FYI - Well known and respected turf farm (Tuckahoe Turf Farms) near me has soil that is over 90% sand in their fields.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

casesuzz said:


> The problems I'm experiencing are not due to what month I planted grass seed nor watering. I't something else - which other posters might bring to my attention.


It's 100% due to you planting in spring.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

casesuzz said:


> Personally I believe several factors come into play when planting new grass seed and I think one of the Major difficulties is planting in sand. Even though over the last two years I added 20 yards of leaf grow. Also grass seed itself is a coin toss. You never know if you get a good blend or a bad one. The problems I'm experiencing are not due to what month I planted grass seed nor watering. I't something else - which other posters might bring to my attention.





casesuzz said:


> Today July 15 my backyard grass looks awful. Maybe half grass, 1/3 brown patch fungus/dollar spot and 1/3 weeds/crab grass.


Sounds like you're willing to blame anything except your own poor planning. But 100% of the problems you are experiencing are directly attributable to seeding at the wrong time. Not applying pre-emergent at the correct time due to having seed on the ground is why 1/3 of your lawn is now weeds. That's indisputable. The fact that young grass is extremely susceptible to fungus is why another third of your lawn is diseased, you went into peak fungus season with 60 day old grass. That indisputable. And speaking of math that doesn't add up, you got another half that's grass, hopefully you didn't seed into your neighbor's yard. And it's only July, the worst is yet to come.

Seems to me you came here looking not for advice, but for confirmation for things you already made up your mind about. Sorry I couldn't provide that. Seeding in the spring is doable, if you know what you're doing. Herbicides and fungicide are available to help minimize, but not eliminate the problems inherent to spring seeding. Just throwing seed on the ground in March in the transition zone and hoping for the best will inevitably lead to exactly what you have - weeds, disease, and generally poor grass establishment. We're here to help, if you want help. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Perhaps this publication from U of Maryland will be useful:
http://www.mdturfcouncil.org/resources/Documents/TT%20Bulletins/TT-63%20General%20Guidelines%20For%20Lawn%20Maintenance%20In%20Maryland.pdf
It recommends planting in late August or in September. If you plant in early September you can be mowing by the time leaves start to fall and just mow the leaves as they fall.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

casesuzz said:


> Oh and I should mention the brown fungus patch was not from over watering. If anything it was from general heat and lack of water. Also, the two previous posts failed to address sandy soil as the culprit, though I agree J4cll that deep grass roots are the key to getting grass established long term.


Your "brown patch" fungus is not from lack of water or heat. Either you applied too much Nitrogen this spring, overwatered the grass, or received extended wet periods from rain. I would bet it is a combination of all three.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

OK, a couple things that may be contributing, though I would lean toward either fungus or, more likely, death from not enough water. Spring seeded grass has very short roots and generally won't go 5 days at 90 degrees without some loss of the lawn. I would expect needing to water every 1-2 days in 90+ degree weather with new grass. Even on my established lawn, I water every ~3 days when it is in the 90s. Do you have pictures of what it looks like now?

- How much shade do you have? Tall Fescue is not great in shade. The fact you are worried about leaves smothering new seedlings in fall makes me wonder if shade is the problem.
- What is your soil like? While you did fertilize, you may have compaction or other issues. The early Summer fertilizer with weed killer didn't help. That likely pushed growth just when the grass was planning to slow down for summer. That fertilizer increased your water needs on the lawn and may have contributed to the summer decline. 
- How much are you watering? It doesn't matter how much time you water for since everyone's irrigation is different. It matters how much water you put down in inches (or cm if you prefer), how often you water, and how even it is applied. Too little or too much water will kill the grass for different reasons.

Lastly, you should plan for a fall overseeding. The success rate of fall seeding is much, much higher than spring. If you are certain you did everything right then I would strongly consider a soil test.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@casesuzz Brother, I am affraid, you have to listen to the guys that replied to your post. 
If you have a few hours to spend reading here, you will understand why...
There are million ways to fail a renovation. In spring, there are another million, that are out of your control.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

casesuzz said:


> Maybe the question should be asked is what percentage of bare lawns that are seeded in fall fully mature with minimal risk versus Spring planting.


A fall seeded lawn is not mature by the time winter sets in.

Conversely, a spring seeded lawn is not mature by the time summer heat arrives.

Immature cool season grass survives cold much better than heat.



> You'll find pretty much every new lawn grass source saying "fall" is the perfect time to lay new grass due to warm temperatures during the day and slightly cooler temps at night.


Fall is perfect due to cooling air temperatures coupled with still warm soil, whereas in the spring you have warming air and soil still cold from winter.

Slow top growth with rapid root growth is a recipe for success. Rapid top growth with slow root growth heading into heat stress is a recipe for failure.



> But no where did I find any grass literature that said planting grass seed in Spring is a "no-no".


It's more difficult than fall seeding but not impossible. You do, however, have two consecutive case studies under your exact conditions with unsatisfactory results.



> Just saying that its really easy to throw out - "whoops you didn't plant in September", when maybe 40% of all. new lawns in the U.S. are started in the Spring.


I'd say spring seeding is an even more prevalent behaviour than that, and if we are being honest, 90% of lawns look terrible. Mass consensus =/= scientific fact.



> Personally I believe several factors come into play when planting new grass seed and I think one of the Major difficulties is planting in sand.


Sand does confound the situation as you will need to water more frequently and fertilize more frequently.

The water retention (lack thereof) of sand is doubly compounded by trying to seed in the spring.

Every golf tee box and putting green is grown in sand. Sand requires more attention, but isn't a deal breaker.



> Even though over the last two years I added 20 yards of leaf grow.


This will help.



> Also grass seed itself is a coin toss. You never know if you get a good blend or a bad one.


To quote a famous YouTube personality "seed is cheap, throw'er down and hope for the best."



> The problems I'm experiencing are not due to what month I planted grass seed nor watering. I't something else - which other posters might bring to my attention.


The seeding didn't fail solely due to the time of year, but it was a contributing factor and likely a large one.

I'm not sure why you've been so resistant to the fall seeding recommendation, as you closed your initial post with the suspicion it was a "heat issue".

You were right.


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## georgiadad (Aug 18, 2018)




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## casesuzz (Jul 15, 2020)

Well after several replies I can start to put the puzzle back together again. If I could turn back the clock I'd go with a fall seeding, though come late September, October my whole back yard is covered with leaves. Normally chewing up leaves (mulching) is good for grass but not sure about "new grass". Secondly I'm a firm believer you don't walk on new grass but I should also mention I have a pretty strong leaf blower that would allow me to collect leafs in a large tarp and remove. Probably 30 plus tarp collections and then some.

With that said I'm going to reseed come the fall and see what happen but not sure I'm going to get the results I want for two reasons. One- there will be some existing dead grass - brown fungus grass that seed will go down on. (no I'm not rototilling the whole back yard again). I'm certainly aware that new seed doesn't alway take on top of old grass. Two, there will be some weeds that will also be competing with new grass seed. Probably too much to remove by hand. Expectations will be low but maybe come 2021 spring I'll start to see more (deep root) grass versus "here to day and gone tomorrow grass".

Maryland is considered a mild winter state and not Canada. What I mean by that is most winters are some what on the mild side with limited snow. More so in the Annapolis area since the Chesapeake bay seems to keep the snow away. Also our Spring weather is some what mild but that can vary from year to year. I still say I did my homework on laying new grass seed and if proper temperatures exists in March, April, early May - then planting seed during that time period should be fine. Now as good as September, October - no but I'm still not buying grass seed thrown down in late March is a cardinal sin.

I guess a key concern is (which other seems to agree with) is that grass that starts to grow in April and May won't have the root length or stamina to deal with hot weather that pops up in late June, July, August. That might be certainly true - but I didn't find that "warning" in literature I read "on line" or in magazines, etc. Furthermore as I said - if you can't plant in the Fall - the second best time to lay grass seed is in the Spring. Period.

Seems the majority here think Spring grass seeding is a "future summer train wreck" that has almost no chance to grow properly. Maybe so - Maybe not.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

I seeded my lawn from bare dirt in late August and had already mowed several times before leaves started falling.

Mulched leaves are excellent nutrition and organic matter.

Regarding weed seeds germinating alongside your grass, look up a product called Tenacity (generic mesotrione). It will block seed germination but allow grass germination.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

casesuzz said:


> Furthermore as I said - if you can't plant in the Fall - the second best time to lay grass seed is in the Spring. Period.
> 
> Seems the majority here think Spring grass seeding is a "future summer train wreck" that has almost no chance to grow properly. Maybe so - Maybe not.


Yep, grass has a better chance of growing in the spring versus the blizzards and single digit temperatures of winter and the intermittent droughts and scorching hot consecutive 90+ degree days of summer. Spring is the second best time to grow grass. We agree.

This spring had great temps and a decent amount of rain here in mid Missouri. A neighbor of mine did a major renovation by grading his back and side yards with topsoil and planting new seed. It looked great for a little over a month. Initially, I was jealous and thought I could have snuck in a spring reno but I'm glad I didn't. Now his grass is either very dormant or very dead.

If someone like him had an irrigation system, was okay with spending a lot on water over the summer months, timed fungicides applications right, then I could see the grass decently making it through summer. This doesn't even factor in weed competition. It's just more costly and the outcome wouldn't be as great compared to a fall reno.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@casesuzz You lost the 'gurus'...already in battling your point.
You don't seed in October. There will be no fallen leaves. If there are some, blow them away.
Please, read the giude it this forum in details and then we can help with the 'fine print'
Good luck


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## georgiadad (Aug 18, 2018)

I'm going to add my 2 cents worth.

Fall is your best bet. You need to watch the forecast for your area not the calendar. Temps that rise into the mid to upper 80's is fine. It might take a bit more water but the earlier you start the better. You're going to need to keep the soil damp, not soaking wet. That requires watering 4-5 times a day. If you don't have an inground system then use hoses, splitters, and a timer. With this method you can have a healthy lawn that can be walked on by the time leaves begin to fall.

In the mean time, start reading everything you can here on this site. It's full of helpful information.


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## Leo448 (Jun 19, 2018)

You guys are too polite. If I was the moderator, I would have pulled the trigger.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> casesuzz said:
> 
> 
> > Personally I believe several factors come into play when planting new grass seed and I think one of the Major difficulties is planting in sand. Even though over the last two years I added 20 yards of leaf grow. Also grass seed itself is a coin toss. You never know if you get a good blend or a bad one. The problems I'm experiencing are not due to what month I planted grass seed nor watering. I't something else - which other posters might bring to my attention.
> ...


+1


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

casesuzz said:


> Well after several replies I can start to put the puzzle back together again. If I could turn back the clock I'd go with a fall seeding, though come late September, October my whole back yard is covered with leaves. Normally chewing up leaves (mulching) is good for grass but not sure about "new grass". Secondly I'm a firm believer you don't walk on new grass but I should also mention I have a pretty strong leaf blower that would allow me to collect leafs in a large tarp and remove. Probably 30 plus tarp collections and then some.
> 
> With that said I'm going to reseed come the fall and see what happen but not sure I'm going to get the results I want for two reasons. One- there will be some existing dead grass - brown fungus grass that seed will go down on. (no I'm not rototilling the whole back yard again). I'm certainly aware that new seed doesn't alway take on top of old grass. Two, there will be some weeds that will also be competing with new grass seed. Probably too much to remove by hand. Expectations will be low but maybe come 2021 spring I'll start to see more (deep root) grass versus "here to day and gone tomorrow grass".
> 
> ...


It's fine to mow leaves on top of new grass. They will get mulched enough, especially if you do a couple of passes. If you can't keep up with mowing the leaves(while they're falling, it's good to mow every few days), you have a blower. It's fine to walk on the grass. For every overseeding, the existing grass will need to be cut long before the new grass does and you can't let the existing grass get too long. Cut it. Just be careful making turns. The new grass will be fine. Walking on the grass won't hurt it. Doing the twist on it will.

You should look into doing some weed killing now. I have spot sprayed Roundup on particular weeds in preparing for overseeding. There is some collateral damage to the grass but there will be new grass from the seeding. Selective herbicides are an option. Read the labels on any you're considering to see what weeds they kill, how long you have to wait before seeding, any restrictions on air temperature, etc. Right before you overseed you should mow very low, bagging the clippings. You will mow up weed foliage (dead or alive) then, exposing the soil. If you have mats of dead stuff on the ground that don't get mowed up, rake it. Seed to soil contact is important. At seeding, you can use Tenacity as a short-lived pre-emergent. It will prevent weeds for about a month and won't hurt the new grass. It can be reapplied so you get about two months of weed protection. Weeds don't grow as much in the fall anyway as they do in the spring. Be sure to use regular pre-emergent in early spring to prevent weeds next spring and summer.


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