# Day 10 and kbg germination is still pathetic, is this normal?



## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

I seeded Mazama 10 days ago. I topdressed with peat and have been watering 5x a day and keeping the seed moist.

Maybe 10% of the ground is covered with half inch tall sprouts. I've read kbg can take a couple of weeks to germinate, but I figured that was for full germination. In my case the majority haven't germinated yet.

Is that normal at this stage? I'm getting worried that the section won't reach maturity by winter or that something is wrong.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Pictures?


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

ryeguy said:


> I seeded Mazama 10 days ago. I topdressed with peat and have been watering 5x a day and keeping the seed moist.
> 
> Maybe 10% of the ground is covered with half inch tall sprouts. I've read kbg can take a couple of weeks to germinate, but I figured that was for full germination. In my case the majority haven't germinated yet.
> 
> Is that normal at this stage? I'm getting worried that the section won't reach maturity by winter or that something is wrong.


I think its pretty normal but, really depends on the cultivar. Last year my Hogans kbg mix I had only a little germination at 10 days. Go look at my journal if you want to see pics to compare.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Here is my mazama on Day 10



Everyone's weather is different though so comparing my Day 10 to your Day 10 might not be equal. Today was Day 15 and I can say it has improved a lot over the last couple days. Just be patient and keep watering.


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## massgrass (Aug 17, 2017)

In my experience KBG generally tends to not do much until the spring after seeding. I used Prosperity KBG on a spot six weeks ago and haven't even mowed it yet. On the other hand, I've mowed the Firecracker SLS TTTF I put down three weeks ago a couple of times already.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Depends entirely on weather like others said. You can see my Mazama milestones this season in my journal thread
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=12011&start=20

I was lucky in that i had a bunch of 70-80F days, many overcast that helped the area stay wet and warm and germinated pretty heavily on day 6-7. My area's that were too wet didnt germinate until day 10 and really popped out on day 14.


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## Methodical (May 3, 2018)

When you watch it all the time you drive yourself nuts as it's like watching paint dry. When you don't focus on it everyday and every minute, bam, the lawn is filling in.  That's been my experience. One of the things I did when I had KBG is put in some Rye grass to get a stand of grass while the KBG slowly filled in and that kept me from going nuts. :lol:


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

Remember, germination occurs underground and what you see above ground is well after that. So 10 days after seeding KBG is perfectly fine to see little to no green grass. It may take up to 21 days for the seeds to germinate, then a few days more after that to actually see something green above ground.

If this was day 25, I'd be worried. Given you're barely halfway through the normal germination process for most KBG, just be patient.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I seeded some KBG a little late last year (beginning of October) and it seemed to basically do almost nothing. Sparse, tiny sprouts right into Winter. I thought it was pretty much a failure for how bad it looked that far in and chalked it up as a bad experiment in getting behind the 8 ball with seeding dates. Come Spring it went nuts. By late Spring, full coverage, thick and healthy. KBG is weird.


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

Here are pics:

















It's a 400sqft area. Top is an overview, bottom pic is the best area (taken from the right side of the top pic).

I'm feeling a bit better about this given all the replies. I still regret not seeding early/mid August, though.


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

You still have plenty of time before winter comes, and that doesn't look bad honestly for KBG after 10 days.

Come back to us with a picture in 2 weeks


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

That's normal for 10 days. It was a bit late to start your seeding but I think you'll be ok before winter.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Looks normal. Did you press the seed/soil? In the image the soil looks loose, which leads to poor germiantion from my experience with kbg.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

ryeguy said:


> Here are pics:
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This actually looks soaked, as in too wet. I've noticed much better germination when i had the area damp but not flooded.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

This is my Day 14 Blueberry monostand


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@ryeguy Your soil looks a bit too moist. Actually looks muddy. Overwatering will slow down germination and growth. You have to constantly fine tune watering, based on temperature and sun/clouds. I can clearly see in my reno where water was too much. Those areas were over seeded twice after but are still weaker than the rest.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

It's still a bit early, but curious how many other folks have seeded Mazama with success at this point. Of all cultivars I've ever seeded, I saw the absolute worst germination rate from Mazama. I thought it was a fluke, but perhaps its a picky germinator in-general. NTEP data has it middle of the pack for seedling vigor and percent establishment.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

vnephologist said:


> It's still a bit early, but curious how many other folks have seeded Mazama with success at this point. Of all cultivars I've ever seeded, I saw the absolute worst germination rate from Mazama. I thought it was a fluke, but perhaps its a picky germinator in-general. NTEP data has it middle of the pack for seedling vigor and percent establishment.


Honestly i experienced the opposite with Mazama. That said i seeded 2# over 650 Sqft, so more like 3# per 1k. 
I went from bare dirt to my first mow in 21 days, and now at 36ish days I have what looks like a lawn until you get up close and see the gaps between the plants as it obviously has only recently started to tiller in the last week. By day 7 i had extensive seedlings popping up all over the renovation. Area's that were excessively wet due to being downhill took until day 14 to really germinate.

After reading Pete's reno and other KBG renovations and seeing these bare dirt with tiny seedlings 30+ days in i was slightly worried to attempt this reno even if its a small one.


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## Mok (May 29, 2019)

Not bad. It's day 10 for me on a small 25 sq ft area and it looks like moss on black soil! And yes the waiting is torture like waiting for paint to dry! Hand in there! Did you apply any starter fert?



ryeguy said:


> Here are pics:
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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

ryeguy said:


> I seeded Mazama 10 days ago. I topdressed with peat and have been watering 5x a day and keeping the seed moist.
> 
> Maybe 10% of the ground is covered with half inch tall sprouts. I've read kbg can take a couple of weeks to germinate, but I figured that was for full germination. In my case the majority haven't germinated yet.
> 
> Is that normal at this stage? I'm getting worried that the section won't reach maturity by winter or that something is wrong.


Patience. I seeded mazama and bewitched 14 days ago and just took the pic below. It's also been in the 90's mostly so I can't imagine germination faster than this. Like someone else said, by late spring you won't remember you thought there was a problem


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> It's still a bit early, but curious how many other folks have seeded Mazama with success at this point. Of all cultivars I've ever seeded, I saw the absolute worst germination rate from Mazama. I thought it was a fluke, but perhaps its a picky germinator in-general. NTEP data has it middle of the pack for seedling vigor and percent establishment.


This is my 3rd year doing a test area of KBG. First year it was Scott's KBG mix, last year was Barron KBG and this year Mazama. Mazama has been by far the quickest to germinate and fill in. Today is Day 16 and from a far the entire area looks green. Now it's not ready to mow yet but I've been very pleased so far so I'm more in the camp of @FuzzeWuzze. But I'll say at about Day 10 mine looked very similar to the OP's. From Day 10 to 14 it took off quite a bit for me.


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## Richkm20 (Mar 13, 2019)

Here's my 650 Sq ft of mazama on day 13 after the first signs of germination. I also seeded at 3lbs per 1k. I was running the sprinklers at 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm and 9pm but noticed the area stayed too wet and cut it down to 8am, 2pm and 9pm which seemed to help. I've also had optimal conditions (70s and no torrential rain). Mine started patchy then about 3 days after that everything started to pop up. Give it some time I'm sure yours will do the same.


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## jingobah (May 6, 2019)

I put down an overseed of Mazama KBG 2 weeks ago & in one area a Scott's full sun KBG blend. Well the Scott's has definitely outgrown the Mazama at this point, probably double the length almost...but the Mazama is coming in strong, tiny but strong.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> This is my 3rd year doing a test area of KBG. First year it was Scott's KBG mix, last year was Barron KBG and this year Mazama. Mazama has been by far the quickest to germinate and fill in. Today is Day 16 and from a far the entire area looks green. Now it's not ready to mow yet but I've been very pleased so far so I'm more in the camp of @FuzzeWuzze. But I'll say at about Day 10 mine looked very similar to the OP's. From Day 10 to 14 it took off quite a bit for me.


This is great to hear. I didn't realize there were so many folks with Mazama monos at this point.  I checked out your journal and just pulled the trigger on 10lbs from Ford & Sons so I'll have some at my disposal. I'm still on the fence about whether to just overseed my front with more Barserati, add Mazama, or give up on the T-Zone KBG and go back to higher HOC TTTF (Raptor 3 + 4th Millenium).


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

vnephologist said:


> This is great to hear. I didn't realize there were so many folks with Mazama monos at this point.  I checked out your journal and just pulled the trigger on 10lbs from Ford & Sons so I'll have some at my disposal. I'm still on the fence about whether to just overseed my front with more Barserati, add Mazama, or give up on the T-Zone KBG and go back to higher HOC TTTF (Raptor 3 + 4th Millenium).


How has your T-zone KBG been doing? July is the hottest month here but August turns out to be the brutal month on the turf, especially fungus issues. I notice the KBG getting heat stressed before the fescue. Everything is starting to recover everywhere around here. How does it look where you are?

About to over-seed with some fescue / midnight mix in some of the weak areas, just to try it out.


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## nocsious (May 14, 2018)

My KBG reno last year never got past the pout stage. I think I mowed it one time and barely trimmed much off before winter set in. In the Spring some of it took hold pretty well and finally turned into mature grass plants. KBG from seed will drive you nuts.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I was in the same boat as you last year Nocsious. Really kicked into gear. I planted about 3 weeks earlier this year so hoping that helps it fill in a little more before Winter.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

The extra heat from seating mid august helps a lot with germination times.

I would always air towards mid to late august opposed to early September.

Also, MI has a bunch of cool days that we usually get later in sep. and maybe early October, which doesn't help.

Last year a neighbor seeded extremely late, dont remember but had to be close to oct. looked like your Pics by thanksgiving(if I recall correctly) but all the grass survived and is healthy now.


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

below is a link from my reno last year for comparison. It shows day 1, day 7, day 14, and day 21 comparison pictures on that page. Each reno is different, but you need patience with KBG. This year's reno took off much faster than last year for me. I hope this helps and I live in CT. Our weather is most likely comparable. Last year I my seed went down August 25th. This year my seed down was August 13th.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5434&start=40


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

That slow start might be why there's not a whole lot of KBG around here. Nightime temps remain in the fungus zone until right about now (Syngenta is still predicting moderate risk for anthracnose and brown patch this weekend). It looks like go time right now for seed but any earlier seems a big risk. Window is very short for slow to germinate and grow grasses. Luckily Winters are usually pretty mild but that's another roll of the dice too. But once it gets going, it's pretty amazing.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


> Here is my mazama on Day 10
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> Everyone's weather is different though so comparing my Day 10 to your Day 10 might not be equal. Today was Day 15 and I can say it has improved a lot over the last couple days. Just be patient and keep watering.


What does this look like now because I'm having a panic attach with my reno right now!


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

JerseyGreens said:


> ksturfguy said:
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Said every person who seeded with KBG. Be patient. It will fill in. It isn't likely going to be perfect this season. You can also do a Spring N blitz to get it kick started and filling in. Most people who have done a KBG reno say year 1 is the worst it will look. Year 2 starts to really fill in and thicken and year 3 is when you really start to be happy. Marathon my friend. You are still on the first mile.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

Harts said:


> JerseyGreens said:
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I hear ya pal - not to high jack this post...just frustrating that I have areas that look absolutely stunning with even germination and others that are just flat out bare! The lack of evenness is throwing me for a serious loop.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@JerseyGreens totally understand. Here is my small reno from 2018. Don't ask what it looks like now. It's literally scorched earth because a) it's my boulevard and it gets so much crap kicked up from the street especially in Winter and b) I've really done nothing to maintain it. I spend most of my time in my backyard.

Nevertheless, here is my progress. The difference between day 10 to 63 is Sept. 5th to Oct. 28th.

Day 10



Day 22



Day 63


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

Harts said:


> @JerseyGreens totally understand. Here is my small reno from 2018. Don't ask what it looks like now. It's literally scorched earth because a) it's my boulevard and it gets so much crap kicked up from the street especially in Winter and b) I've really done nothing to maintain it. I spend most of my time in my backyard.
> 
> Nevertheless, here is my progress. The difference between day 10 to 63 is Sept. 5th to Oct. 28th.
> 
> ...


If those day 10 pictures are 100% KBG then that looks amazing.


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## halby (Jun 8, 2020)

This is exactly why I switched from kbg to prg for my backyard Reno. I just don't have the patience for kbg. With PRG you are established by the time kbg gets going.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

I think the -long germination times- is somewhat blown. You will see germination with KBG within a week. It's just slow once germination. But between the 2nd -3rd cut, and a feed, you will get some mature blades in a bit. My only gripe would be how long it takes for a mature blade to develop....

If it's small spot repair, I've skipped the seeding part in the Fall. I have planted KBG in -pots- and just did a transplant on said areas.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

JerseyGreens said:


> ksturfguy said:
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Here is a pic from yesterday. I have added zero new seed since the original seed down date last Fall


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


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That is absolutely stunning - not for once did you think you had some washout?

I give you a round of applause - I just threw down the rest of my seed in a panic yesterday - although I had real visible washout in my driveway. Hope mines comes out like yours did!


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

JerseyGreens said:


> ksturfguy said:
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Washout wise I wasn't concerned at all because it barely rained at all the first 14 days after seed down. I was more concerned it was just too shaded and KBG wasn't going to work. Hell even in late April this year I was prepared to call it a failure.

But this area is just kind of an extra area of my property that you cant see from the road so if it failed it wasn't going to be the end of the world. Once May started it really kicked into gear and now looks great besides a couple spots with heat stress or fungus.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


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Ah - got it.

Renos would be so much more easier if people don't get slammed with crazy T-storms those first 14 days.


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

Here is what that spot looks like now:










At the end of the season last year, it filled in a lot more but was still thin and pretty crappy looking. It wasn't mature enough to take N until October, but that's also when my growing season ended, so it didn't get much N last year, maybe just 2 spoonfeedings.

This year I hit it with .5 lb N/M late April, then spoon fed it .25 lb N/M weekly (using ammonium sulfate) the month of May. Finally by June it started looking like the above pic.

My mistake was seeding too late, I should have done it maybe 3 weeks earlier so it could mature a bit more before winter, and then I could have spoon fed it a bit more too.


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

I have a similar question.. How long does *** and/or TTTF take to really thicken? Is this process called Sprout and pout that is goin on until it thickens?


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

ryeguy said:


> Here is what that spot looks like now:
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Thank you for sharing this. Growing KBG is not for the faint of heart. I've been freaking out about my progress at day 12.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

From seed, IME, 3 months in , KBG will have a fairly decent mature blade. Cutting frequently seems to help as well.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Good thread, should maybe sticky it LOL...

The thing that kills me is that in re-leveled spots I can see all the grass babies but in the middle of the yard where there's still yellow dead grass... impossible to see.

This phase also shows why it's important for good seed to soil contact, those spots always go quicker and the ones with peat moss.


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