# Progress Update! New Construction FAILURE - Help Needed!



## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Hey guys, complete newb to the site. So please go easy! So long story short, my spring seeding failed (many reasons but torrential rains for a month immediately after seeding) and now I want to get seed down for fall. I'm outside of Philadelphia, PA. with around 3/4 of an acre that needs to be seeded.

I put down Synatek's Stadium Seed which is the follow mixture this past spring:
70% tall fescue
20% perennial rye
10% kbg

Synatek uses Oregon State University Seeds in case that matters.

So my main questions are the following:
How should I handle the weeds I have now? I was probably going to rent a walk behind power rake to finish a few areas of fill/top soil areas I need to fix and figured it would be the best way to just run over/kill the weeds. I've got a lot of sticks and rocks and the soil is very hard from the springs disaster.

I'd rather not put down Roundup as we are all on well water and I know Roundup is seriously nasty stuff. Plus I have a dog and kids...

Or maybe use Tenacity on it now? Not sure if that's a good solution on the entire lawn?

Or I was going to rent a slit seeder to get the new seed down. With how hard this topsoil has gotten, I need to get the seed down into this dirt. If I had to rake this by hand I'd rather find a bridge to jump off of... So I was debating using the slit seeder, without dumping seed, and make a bunch of passes using the wheels to grind up the weeds and get the soil tilled up. Then go back over it with the seed running and getting down into the soil properly.

So I'm trying to get the seed down before the end of the month. I'm seeing from reading the forums that a mid-late August is the best time?! But I know around here its been in the 90's still since mid-August with little rain. And I was always told mid-late Sept is a good time to get seed down around these parts?

And do you guys recommend a starter fertilizer? I feel like I've seen an argument both ways. And do I put down Tenacity at the time of seeding to help with any of the remaining weeds currently in place?

I have pop up sprinklers ready to go so I should be able to keep the yard wet enough.

So, don't kill me here guys. Hopefully I can get some good tips so I can get this done and we can have an actual yard with real grass! I know it's a long process but I'm short on $$$ and time so I hope I can get a decent yard established by next spring/summer. Thanks for the help,

Before spring seeding






Currently


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Mow as low as possible and bag the clippings
Get scotts starter fertilizer with Weed Preventer (not the weed & feed in the yellow bag!)
Spread the seed over at the rate for overseeding that is on the bag with a hand spreader.
Cover with some peat moss
Water as needed to keep it most.

You need to do this fast, there's only a few weeks before the first frost.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

That's a weed field...

Step 1 is you have to address those weeds - blanket spray with Tenacity and NIS
Step 2 is to get good seed into the ground and encourage growth - something that will germinate quickly, so a TTTF/KBG blend. Mow low, scalp it, bag it, then aerate the lawn. Then slit seed heavy, and use Scotts Start with Mesotrione. Keep it damp.

Once that's done, you can plan out the next steps.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

And you should be mowing every 3 days...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ +1

I would do glyphosate to kill everything (no harm with your well water). Then a Harley rake to finish grade and remove the rocks. Then seed and water to keep it constantly moist. What are your plans to water 30ksqft?


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Ok thanks for the quick replies!

So, I'm seeing to mow the weeds super low and try to mow them every few days. I'm guessing that will help keep them at bay?

And then I see one vote for tenacity and one for round up. Depending on which I pick, how soon would I need to do either? Meaning, if I did that within the next few days, how long before I can put down the new seed? That's my one worry with the round up is it killing my new grass vs. tenacity which wouldn't kill the new grass.

And G-man - I have about 7 or 8 of the big 30' pop-up sprinklers strategically placed across the yard. I'm not getting 100% coverage but damn close considering. I have hoses everywhere ha. But I have all of them running off timers. I'm seeing to keep the watering shorter but more frequently, vs. longer times and less often over the first few weeks. That's correct?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I did not see grass in your images. You can do round up and seed the same day. Tenacity will not kill all of the weeds with one application. Getting the seeds into the soil (below 1/4in) will help germination.

Short and frequent for seeding.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I think you're best best is to start over and get yourself a better starting base. There do appear to be quite a few rocks.

As g-man said, you can nuke with round up and seed same day. I also do not see a lot of grass in your photos.

FYI, it wasn't mentioned to mow frequently to keep weeds at bay. It was meant to help with what little grass you may have.

As for watering new seed, for the first 1-3 weeks (depending on seed selection) you water frequently for short periods of time (ie. 3-5 mins) to keep the top part of your soil moist but not soaked. As the seed starts to germinate, you reduce the frequency but increase the duration.

I recommend reading this thread: Lawn Renovation Guide


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

If it was me I would do a mix with 70%-80% Perennial Rye and 20%-30% KBG.. It is late in the season and you need a seed that will germinate quickly, and with the Perennial Rye you will have mowable grass within 2-3 weeks... I did a mostly PRG reno with seed down last Sept 22nd... It turned out great.. I mowed it three times before the end of the season and this year it is filled all in...

+1 on hitting it with Roundup...


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## mtroo (Jul 31, 2018)

@npompei Prior to your previous attempt, the ground looked clear but I do not have the sense that you used glycophosphate to kill the weeds that must have been there previously. Additionally, in reading your above comments, it seems to me that you favor using mechanical means to eradicate the weeds, but this will not work. You are going to need to use chemical means. Use glycophospate, reseed and water.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

@npompei I would also recommend to read the Cool Season Overseed Guide. You will add to that plan spraying roundup (glyphosate) on all the existing green stuff growing in your desired lawn area.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Sounds great everyone, I really appreciate the comments!

Step 1 - Roundup
Step 2 - light grading, stick/rocks removal making a good seed bed
Step 3 - Slit Seeder
Step 4 - water
Step 5 - pray

Do you guys recommend and pre-emergent?

And thanks @Stuofsci02 I just emailed my seed company asking about the higher Perennial blend so I'll see what they say. Good advice there thank you!


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Tenacity is the only pre emergent you could use at time of seeding.

30 days after germ. You can do another app.

60 days after germ or two mows whichever is longer you can use a regular pre emergent


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Well, I've got some good progress! Just want to say thank you for all of the help. I have a few questions now that I have some nice green fuzz coming up:

1. Watering. I know to water less frequently but for longer periods of time. Can you give me an idea on those rates again? I think I got a bit aggressive and watered a bit much but that was because we had a long hot stretch right after I got seed down. Then it wasn't as hot and sunny so I didn't adapt as quickly. It's been about 8-10 days since seed growth for most areas. Some areas I couldn't get to with sprinklers and had to move some things around so some are a few days behind.

2. I'm completely unsure of what to do next in terms of putting anything down. I used starter Fert with seed down but not sure of what should be next and when? I have not mowed yet but was curious if I should be looking ahead to put something down before winter hits?

3. First height cut again? Short for winter or keep it longer because it's new grass?

4. What do people recommend for a soil test? I've been searching but it varies.

5. Anything else I am missing?

Thanks again for the help!


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking great... What seed type did you end up going with? You are still early enough that daily watering is still a good idea, but don't soak.. keep moist. If you used starter fert that should last until about 4 weeks after germination. I would do a second app of starter fert at about 4 weeks after germination, but avoid the type that has weed prevent if you can.

Mow at 1.5 to 2" until the end of the season. You might be able to mow pretty soon from the looks of it... if you seed has perennial rye in it you might just have enough time to throw some more seed on the bare patches.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Thank you @Stuofsci02 ! It's been a seriously intensive and very expensive process. Not to mention, labor intensive as it's more or less been all me doing it ha.

Thank you for the info on watering. I've turned the length of time down but still doing it frequently (90 deg here today!) but then down into the 60's and chilly at night so I won't need much during day going forward.

I went with Synatek Triple Play Perennial Rye Grass Seed - 38% Top Gun II, 33% Caddieshack II & 28% Accent II. I was hoping for fast germination before fall. I plan to overseed in the spring and mix in some fescue and KBG to help fill things in.

Good to know about the fert. I'll talk with Synatek and get some more of their starter as well as some extra seed to fill in. Good call on getting some down in the bare spots now vs. in the spring.

Anyone have info on a soil test? Something like this be ok? https://www.amazon.com/Luster-Leaf-1601-Rapitest-Phosphorous/dp/B0000DI845/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8&th=1#


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## MDJoe (Sep 16, 2019)

npompei said:


> I'd rather not put down Roundup as we are all on well water and I know Roundup is seriously nasty stuff. Plus I have a dog and kids...


Actually, it's pretty benign. Don't fall for the fear mongering about glyphosate. It's just about the safest non-selective herbicide in existence.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

No KBG in your mix? That might be hard to overseed into your lawn next year. It might be tough for you to keep it filled in next year since you have no self repairing spreading types. That said you can easily overseed the PRG each year and have a nice lawn like what the guys do with the TTTF.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Damnit @Stuofsci02 now I'm super worried I don't have any KBG in that mix. I certainly have some problem spots that I am sure I'll need to redo come spring. Do you think if I overseed in the spring to fill things in I can use a TTTF/KBG mix? Man, now I'm super worried! Why is this process so damn hard!


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

@npompei

I wouldn't worry too much about it at this point. You needed a lawn quickly and PRG as I mentioned early in the thread is a good way to do that late in the season. It looks like it is working well for you. Even if you had KBG in there it might not have taken well anyhow this late. Since much of the hard work is done, I would continue to fill in the bare spots this fall with more PRG seed, and see what happens next summer. The PRG will look great in the spring, but will likely struggle in the mid summer heat unless you can keep water to it. Next Aug you can decide how to proceed. At that point you will have more experience under you belt and may choose to smoke out the PRG and plant KBG or TTTF.

Don't forget that lots of warm season grass guys use rye as a winter cover for their bermuda etc. (to have a green lawn in the winter) knowing full well it will die next summer. You can always consider what you just did as a winter cover. The hardest work you did this year will not need to be repeated even if you decided to switch to a KBG or TTTF lawn next year.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Thanks @Stuofsci02 I appreciate the advice.

So I'm thinking I have 2 strategies, let me know your thoughts and tell me if I'm stupid or not:

1. Don't do anything now, let the patchy spots go. Then in the spring I will overseed and can throw in *** and TTTF. I figure with the patchy areas it may be able to take better than if it's completely filled in with PRG?

2. Completely forego anything in the spring, then overseed with the same above in the fall when it may be better to do so.

I feel like I'm at a crossroads of deciding to take real good care of this PRG and get it to fill in nicely and then just make sure I water it during July/Aug and hope it holds. Or to not fill in anything, not fertilize or the likes in the spring so I can add in some other grass types so they can hopefully mix in. Am I wrong in this thinking?

And if I decide to just keep rolling with the PRG, what sorts of programs (fert, etc.) can I start applying in the spring and summer or hell even this winter to make sure it holds up over the summer months?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

I would suggest a 3rd option: focus on your soil for the next 9 months and buy some quality TTTF/KBG mix and glypho all the PRG.

You can make that decision in late July according to how the PRG looks. You might really like the look, and in that case you just overseed with it again next fall and you're all set.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Good call @Jconnelly6b I like that idea of waiting to see how it looks. Not like I'm going to change things now. I finally have grass after a year of trying ha.

The only problem with starting over is the time and $. With around 30ksq. ft. it cost me a good amount of $ that I just don't have at this point. Plus it will be a kick in the groin to have such nice grass for most of the year, then kill it off to try another type and spend the $ again. But if it dies this summer I guess I won't have a choice!

So trying to mix in KBG & TTTF into what I have this spring is a no-no? Or even next fall?


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

@npompei 
I would not recommend to try to overseed in the spring. You will waste your time and money, and it will prevent you from using a Pre-m. What does germinate will die in the summer heat as it will not be mature. I would suggest to put down a pre-emergent in the spring to keep from getting a ton of weeds and crabgrass over the summer.

Depending on how things go, you will have several options in the fall:

1. Add more PRG. It is cheap and effective and during cooler times can always give you a beautiful lawn (see Ryan Knorr).
2. If the PRG does not do well, you can overseed other grass types (TTTF) and have again a nice lawn in the fall.
3. You could catch "the bug" and decide to kill off everything in early Aug and start fresh.

All of the above options are legitimate ways to go, and none of them require that you make any decision until Aug 1st next year.

I would, however suggest to get the PRG to fill in as much as you can now (as it does not spread this means seeding bare patched), to avoid mud, weeds and crabgrass next year in those spots.


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## npompei (Sep 8, 2019)

Stuofsci02 said:


> @npompei
> I would not recommend to try to overseed in the spring. You will waste your time and money, and it will prevent you from using a Pre-m. What does germinate will die in the summer heat as it will not be mature. I would suggest to put down a pre-emergent in the spring to keep from getting a ton of weeds and crabgrass over the summer.
> 
> Depending on how things go, you will have several options in the fall:
> ...


Perfect - love this advice. I'm going to sleep better tonight! Thank you sir!


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

npompei said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> > @npompei
> ...


Enjoy the journey now... A new fall lawn is a lot of fun IMO


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