# Matted down, peeling grass .. grubs? Disease? HELP!!



## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

Brad from Northeast ohio here. Little back story -- Fescue, rye, KBG combo grass. I mow grass at 3.5-4 inches, well maintained, properly irrigated property. Dethatched last in April.

So on one part of my yard (mainly shade but does get about 35-40% sun daily, I have green grass that is VERY matted down, peeling in some areas. I do fertilizer's every 6-8 weeks on schedule, and again, irrigate properly. I thought it was a grub problem because I've had grubs in past on that side of yard before. I did put down menards premium grub control last week. Not expecting results by any means, but the peeling /matted down grass got worse over last week. Wanted to do an 'experiment'.. so i attempted to mow real low, and dethatch with my greenworks dethacther in an attempt to put down some BioAdvanced 24 hour grub control. Wanted to kill them immediately rather than a slower process with the menards grub control. So figured if if product made more soil contact.. it would be more effective.

Dethatching helped a little but couldn't even get to the soil surface because how matted down it was, it would only barely bring up some of that grass that was matted. I wanted to investigate some of the peeling grass, just to confirm that grubs would be present. However none were found in a 2 -3 foot square, but I did find a good amount of large worms. Not a worm expert so I don't know if another issue is present, I have not gotten around to throwing any 24 hour grub control yet, because I wanted to throw my findings out on this forum. Is this possibly a disease??? Don't usually throw down disease-ex (for example) products.

Seems like the roots aren't growing deep into the soil in this part of the yard... can easily grab clump of grass and it pulls right out.

Currently, grass is 1.5-2 inches tall, mainly brown because of the beating it took today with dethaching in multiple directions/mowing low, etc.

I will attach pictures so maybe you guys can get a better idea of what is going on.
If you have any thoughts please respond!!! and let me know what products would be recommended!!!!

Any help is greatly appreciated!!!

thanks for your time in advanced!!
Brad


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

can you dig down a bit and check for grubs


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

I did dig down in a few locations. No grubs, but like I mentioned... lots of worms. More than the usual if you ask me! Wasn't sure if that's the reason or if that means anything


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## Pemt13 (Feb 2, 2019)

Have you had warmer temps? Could be Triv that is now going dormant. I am sure the Triv experts can weigh in more. Just another possibility...


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

Pemt13 said:


> Have you had warmer temps? Could be Triv that is now going dormant. I am sure the Triv experts can weigh in more. Just another possibility...


Yeah temperatures have been a little warmer than normal. It's funny you mention triv. I definitely have had a little bit of an infestation in that area. Wasn't sure if it was quack grass for a long time but then after finally discovering triv on this site, I learned that it was definitely triv. Hoping to get some more opinions if this is Dorman trove. Seems kind of early and the seasoning, don't you think? Hoping I don't have to resort to round up and reseeding come fall. I think the wife has already had enough!!


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

Pemt13 said:


> Have you had warmer temps? Could be Triv that is now going dormant. I am sure the Triv experts can weigh in more. Just another possibility...


I second poa trivialis. It tends to become thinner, floppier, brown and stringy when the warmer temps and drought start hitting. Seeing that it's going dormant, glyphosate likely not a cure-all but always worth a shot with triv. Remember where it is and try to keep after it year after year in hopes that good cultural practices help beat it long term. Being in a "shady" location will be tough if your good turf stand isn't strong in that area.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

That is 100% certain poa trivialis. Sorry but at least you know.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I made this video a couple years back. Look familiar?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgKcG0ivCmQ


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

Considering I'm working with some slope issues... any recommendations on how I can fix this?? Ive thrown a ton of topsoil to help with the slope in the past, but still have issues.. Even closer towards the side of house, where slope is good, I still have Triv. Im assuming that is related to the amount of shade and lack of sun!

Should have just left it alone, but the amount of grass peeling was excessive!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I would not spend any more time grading. I very much doubt it will fix the problem.

I would leave it alone until early August. Then, physically remove the triv by rolling it up and hit the area with roundup 2 or 3 times on a 7 day interval. Contrary to popular belief, the triv will not go completely dormant even in full sun, 90+ temps if it has access to moisture. Reseed during your optimal window, early September I'm guessing.

Expect the triv to return in the next couple years but at a much reduced rate. You will battle the triv every year so it's good to get to know what it looks like at different times of the year.

The above is based on my own personal experience over the past 8 years and a renovation of a yard full of triv. Rolled up so much of it that I had to hire a bobcat and a commercial dumpster to remove it. Good luck!


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

tgreen said:


> I would not spend any more time grading. I very much doubt it will fix the problem.
> 
> I would leave it alone until early August. Then, physically remove the triv by rolling it up and hit the area with roundup 2 or 3 times on a 7 day interval. Contrary to popular belief, the triv will not go completely dormant even in full sun, 90+ temps if it has access to moisture. Reseed during your optimal window, early September I'm guessing.
> 
> ...


I greatly appreciate your input. Considering that you've dealt with this for some time now... Come August, would you recommend removing the areas that peel easily, roundup as you mentioned.... and then deathatching to really thin the area out (considering Triv will be dormant), right before seeding come September-ish?? Just didn't know if the new grass seed will/can overpower the poa triv from reappearing come next Spring.

Seems like the triv will be a problem going forward and I've seen some videos out there, that if the grade of the slope can't be fixed (and considering I can't remove my neighbors tree's that block the sun), that the triv will continue to be a problem.... Just HOPES to thin it out and cautiously contain it.

Thanks!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Yes, that is a good plan. You should not have any trouble physically removing the triv. It should easily lift off the ground revealing bare dirt. Some of the stolons could be mudded-in so you probably won't get every single stolon but do your best within reason.

I used the verticutter/ power rake more to prepare the seed bed vs opening up the triv. You really should be able to physically remove the triv so you won't need the rake to do that.

You may have more triv than you think so make sure you get it all. I'd be tempted to renovate the whole yard.

The other thing you might look at are some shade tolerant tall fescue and KBG varieties. Some that I've used include: Tall Fescue - Rowdy, 4th millenium, and Essential; Kentucky bluegrass: Bewitched and Mazama. There are others.

There is a site ntep.org that reports on trials of a bunch of turf cultivars. IF you've never read the reports and are interested then let me know.

Otherwise, here's a link to seed super store. He is expensive and there are other cheaper merchants but I mainly use him.

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100073/ss1002-tall-fescue-shade-blend


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## Chris1 (Apr 22, 2020)

tgreen.............excellent PT info share and analysis . Doctor P Triv ! any experience , thoughts on POA A . Really bad this year.

i need to nail down solid pre em plan


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## rtdad (Jul 13, 2019)

tgreen said:


> That is 100% certain poa trivialis. Sorry but at least you know.


How are you so certain? Just wondering because I've heard Alyn Hayne mention it's almost impossible to identify weeds just by some pictures because they are not 3d, and you can't see the entire root etc.. Also I have light green patches and I thought that might be poa triv but none of it has died like this ... yet.... But I do have some brown coming in..


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

Mine isn't usually this brown. I did that to myself but mowing it down several times and dethatching it in multiple directions. Reason why is because I thought it was mainly grubs. Then I discovered how matted it was, thus reaching out to forum.

I've discovered more and more patches that are matted down significantly since the response. I'll have to evaluate my plan come summer. But I don't see a reason to renovate the side yard until the neighboring house (which is vacant) addresses the multiple dead trees on their side of the property.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

rtdad said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > That is 100% certain poa trivialis. Sorry but at least you know.
> ...


100% certain the OP is poa triv. Would bet the house on it.

The stuff you are showing in your pic looks like dead grass up against a blacktop that gets hot and cooks the soil. I can't be sure with your pic but does not look like triv.

I don't know Alan Hayne, sorry.


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

So, Considering im not expert but am all about lawn care/learning as I go and keeping my property looking sharp. Has this been tried/Or worth a shot???

What if you blanket spray a large section of yard with Tenacity (possibly more than one application)... wait for it to turn white (this way you have identified the Poa Triv)... then hit those white spots with a series of Round Up applications? In my uneducated opinion, this sounds like a better option than blanket spraying with RoundUp. Or just a thought... blanket spray yard (let it turn white) and then dig out the Triv a little wider than the white patches??


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Chris1 said:


> tgreen.............excellent PT info share and analysis . Doctor P Triv ! any experience , thoughts on POA A . Really bad this year.
> 
> i need to nail down solid pre em plan


I don't have first hand experience with large poa A outbreak. I definitely get poa A here and there, like everyone. If I had a poa A problem, I would 1) put down a preM in the late summer. poa A starts germinating earlier than you might think. you need to go out early with it. I would split the app start beginning of august and do another maybe 6 weeks later. 2) I would be ready with a post emergent in Spring. I use Xonerate but there are cheaper alternatives. 3) A dense turf stand is the best poa A defense so I'd be looking to overseed in the Fall of year 2.

Maybe search through some old threads to find someone with first hand experience though.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

BKB41 said:


> So, Considering im not expert but am all about lawn care/learning as I go and keeping my property looking sharp. Has this been tried/Or worth a shot???
> 
> What if you blanket spray a large section of yard with Tenacity (possibly more than one application)... wait for it to turn white (this way you have identified the Poa Triv)... then hit those white spots with a series of Round Up applications? In my uneducated opinion, this sounds like a better option than blanket spraying with RoundUp. Or just a thought... blanket spray yard (let it turn white) and then dig out the Triv a little wider than the white patches??


You can certainly try it. No harm in spraying the tenacity to see what lights up.


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## rtdad (Jul 13, 2019)

tgreen said:


> rtdad said:
> 
> 
> > tgreen said:
> ...


What makes you certain it is? Not doubting you, just interested in what to look for.

Alyn Hayne is the lawn care nut on YouTube, also "Lawns Across America" a pretty good vlog/podcast, one of the lawn care celebrities, lol.


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

rtdad said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > rtdad said:
> ...


Check out the video posted on the page, Very informative!


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

So roughly a month later, the poa triv that was beat up and going dormant has been replaced by green "grass". Is this native KBG/Fescue/rye that is growing or is this something else?

Also, when is the best time/month to hit the lawn with a blanket spray of tenacity??


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## BKB41 (May 22, 2020)

Any thoughts??


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Those original pics you posted were definitely triv. Unfortunately, it does not get out-competed by good grass (KBG, TF, etc) in areas where it is well adapted (i.e., moisture and shade). I can't tell from the pic but assume that is still triv if it's the same area as your original pics. It's not uncommon for triv to stay green if it has access to water.

This "new" grass is pretty short? If you take a mower at 3.5 inch height, you don't get any clippings? The grass still peels back pretty easily?

You may find you can live with it?


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