# 2019 Fall Nitrogen



## g-man

The fall season is almost here. We are getting some below average temperatures and the lawns should start to recover from the summer heat. We are not out of the woods yet but the longer range forecast looks good.

The Fall nitrogen program is explained in the Fall Nitrogen Blitz. The latest research continues to point that the next two month are the most important ones.


 You should start to get your nitrogen source. Search local places, talk to the local members in the home town thread. Save some $$ and buy it local. Urea is the cheapest source of N at around $15-$20 for 25lb of N (in a 50lb of urea).

Since the weather is nicer, I actually already started giving the lawn some slower release sources just to wake it up.

We get this question a lot: "I'm overseeding, can I also do a lot of nitrogen?" The answer is: I dont really know of any research around it. I think most members have done it with success.

Overseed or not overseed? - I'm of the opinion that most cool season mix lawns do not need an overseed. They need the nitrogen to recover and get thick, but an overseed is not really needed. Of course if you had areas with fungus (PB) that killed it, or severe drought, then you will need to overseed. Again, just my opinion from my no mix lawn and all the common areas from the HOA that never get an overseed.

 POA a - POA a does die in the summer under some conditions. It mainly involves heat stress from temperature and drought. If you keep your lawn irrigated and green thru the summer, it will survive. This year we had a rainy summer, so that helps it survive more. You will need to kill it or hand pull it this year.

Further POA a drops seed that germinate in the fall as soil temperature drop. You want to apply a prem around August to help prevent it. The spring prem normally wears out around August. A split app of prodiamine in the spring does help but it will still wear out. If POA a is not a problem in your lawn, then skip it.

 Fungus - GLS could start soon, but only one confirmed case in NJ so far. Great info in this OSU turf [https://vimeo.com/351668886]video[/url].


Here is the 8-14 day temp map:


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## SNOWBOB11

I'm going to use granular AMS this year instead of urea. I used some AMS earlier this year and liked the results. I have high PH soil.


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## Miggity

@SNOWBOB11 , I also prefer AMS with my high pH soil, but be aware of the salt index of AMS being double that of urea and increasing the risk of both fertilizer burn and salt buildup in the soil at blitz rates. My plan is to alternate urea and AMS during the blitz. I wish you nothing but the best lawn in all of Ontario. :nod: :thumbup:


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## SNOWBOB11

Miggity said:


> @SNOWBOB11 , I also prefer AMS with my high pH soil, but be aware of the salt index of AMS being double that of urea and increasing the risk of both fertilizer burn and salt buildup in the soil at blitz rates. My plan is to alternate urea and AMS during the blitz. I wish you nothing but the best lawn in all of Ontario. :nod: :thumbup:


Very true. Good thought.


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## Dkrem

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I'm going to use granular AMS this year instead of urea. I used some AMS earlier this year and liked the results. I have high PH soil.


Same here on the soil. My math says with the prices I'm paying that urea and sulfur put down separately are a better bang for my buck than AS.


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## BobRoss

Hey guys, I am pretty new here and just starting to get into wanting a really nice lawn vs just throwing down some Scott's products like I used to.

Can someone please explain what the difference is between let's say a 24-0-0 and 46-0-0 if you still go by the recommended rate? It seems like they always end up mathing out to roughly 1lbs per 1k sq ft. This is also if it is the same nitrogen source as urea nitrogen. I just have noticed that the higher nitrogen tends to be a smaller bag or more sq ft per bag. sorry if this is explained elsewhere, but I could not find it.

I am looking into doing the fall nitrogen blitz and I see a 46-0-0 recommend, but I cannot find that anywhere. The closest I can find locally is a 24-0-4 urea nitrogen bag at tractor supply.


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## NoslracNevok

@BobRoss 24-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate (AS) will have a quicker uptake compared to 46-0-0 Urea (*some please correct me if I'm wrong). AS is slightly more expensive source of N, although if you buy a 40+ lb bag, it's a wash in my opinion. AS will also get an more even/consistence coverage (*when putting down the same lbs of Nitrogen), since you will put down ~double the amount of product/prills compared to Urea. There are other things, but that's my stab at it.


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## NewLawnJon

NoslracNevok said:


> @BobRoss 24-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate (AS) will have a quicker uptake compared to 46-0-0 Urea (*some please correct me if I'm wrong). AS is slightly more expensive source of N, although if you buy a 40+ lb bag, it's a wash in my opinion. AS will also get an more even/consistence coverage (*when putting down the same lbs of Nitrogen), since you will put down ~double the amount of product/prills compared to Urea. There are other things, but that's my stab at it.


I think you are correct on the AS being more plant available quicker based on what Matt Martin has mentioned on the live streams. Urea needs to volatize from a solid to a gas to become plant available.


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## BobRoss

Actually, this is 24% Urea and not ammonium Sulfate and that is why I was wondering if a 24 vs 46 is any different besides the amount of product need to be thrown down.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-lawn-food-24-0-4?cm_vc=-10005

I have not seen any Ammonium Sulfate locally yet.


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## Socks

Just thought I'd ask in here if anyone has any experience with the Lesco NOS (46-0-0). I'm going to be using this to start off my fall. They also have the NOS in a 30-0-3 analysis I'm going to grab a bag of for my second application in ~October. Still looking for a good winterizer if anyone has any advice.

https://www.lesco.com/products/nos


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## NoslracNevok

@BobRoss I was wrong on that, AS is 21% N and 24% sulfur, good catch. The label says 24-0-4 and the N is from Urea. The more I talk, the more I wonder into speculation zone. I'll leave it here for more knowledgeable TLF members.


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## NewLawnJon

BobRoss said:


> Actually, this is 24% Urea and not ammonium Sulfate and that is why I was wondering if a 24 vs 46 is any different besides the amount of product need to be thrown down.
> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/groundwork-lawn-food-24-0-4?cm_vc=-10005
> 
> I have not seen any Ammonium Sulfate locally yet.


I am guessing the 24% urea is coated to control the release, or has some other product in it since straight urea is 46%. In the fall blitz you want it all to be quick release to I would get the 46% rated urea.


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## Babameca

@BobRoss All mentioned so far...and so much more. If you are a beginner, in order not to get lost (I did), just pick a full year plan with specific products available to you and stick to it...while learning.
Here is what I have chosen for my all around fertilizer. I am giving only as an example to demonstrate how Nitrogen is divided to tens of types. Urea coated(polymer coated, sulphur coated...), not coated, WIN (water insoluble) methylene urea (UMAXX) etc etc. Foliar or soil app or hybrid, particle size for spreader control (SGN number). The list is long.
Dont forget also there are Calcium and all micros on top. Plus soil bio activity....Bottom line, start simple and learn.
http://www.oscturf.com/userContent/documents/24-6-12_TS.pdf


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## g-man

@BobRoss I suggest you look for a fast release nitrogen source. The TS product is a coated urea with a slow release. It gives you a delay effect to the feeding. You can use it, but keep the slow release in mind. The idea is to feed the lawn now. Check in the home town folder. Someone from MN should know where to get it. You will find it at places that sell to farmers.


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## g-man

@Socks I don't think you should pay extra for the NOS. I think there was a Univ study showing how these products are not really needed. Just water the urea and it will be all good.


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## g-man

@NoslracNevok the 24% is based on urea and blended with other inert stuff and coating to slow the release.


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## john5246

BobRoss said:


> Hey guys, I am pretty new here and just starting to get into wanting a really nice lawn vs just throwing down some Scott's products like I used to.
> 
> Can someone please explain what the difference is between let's say a 24-0-0 and 46-0-0 if you still go by the recommended rate? It seems like they always end up mathing out to roughly 1lbs per 1k sq ft. This is also if it is the same nitrogen source as urea nitrogen. I just have noticed that the higher nitrogen tends to be a smaller bag or more sq ft per bag. sorry if this is explained elsewhere, but I could not find it.
> 
> I am looking into doing the fall nitrogen blitz and I see a 46-0-0 recommend, but I cannot find that anywhere. The closest I can find locally is a 24-0-4 urea nitrogen bag at tractor supply.


There is nothing wrong with "throwing some scottts products" like you used to. You can have a great lawn with just store bought products. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.


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## g-man

@NewLawnJon urea needs urease to become plant available nitrogen. Urease is in the soil. It is a fairly fast process. AS is already in a plant available form.

Votalization would be when the nitrogen from the urea becomes a gas and goes into the atmosphere (lost). It can happen if the urea is not watered in and it sit humid for a while. The percent lost is fairly small and not something to worry about in the fall with all the rains/dew. Farmers do worry about it in the summer because it is $$ lost.


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## Wlodyd

Where is everyone getting their Ammonium Sulfate from? I can't find anything locally... I have some high pH soil too and like the idea of alternating urea and AS. Looks like you can get some Greenway Biotech stuff for $40 for 25lb bag on Amazon... I assume that would work fine but seems pricey for my feet needs. I just can't find anywhere.


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## g-man

@Wlodyd in Columbus, oh? Advance Turf Solutions (4660 Journal Street Columbus, OH 43228). Helena might have it too.


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## thud

I am a newbie here. Does anyone just go to an agricultural fertilizer plant and buy urea from them? I have fertilizer plant close buy and they will sell me granular urea or premixed npk in bags in different ratios. They would do a custom blend as well for a larger order. Would this be a good idea?


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## g-man

If you can get it cheap, sure it is a good idea.


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## Dkrem

Wlodyd said:


> Where is everyone getting their Ammonium Sulfate from? I can't find anything locally...


Have you tried SiteOne? They have three locations in Columbus.
https://www.siteone.com/p/4466


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## beardizzle1

g-man said:


> @Wlodyd in Columbus, oh? Advance Turf Solutions (4660 Journal Street Columbus, OH 43228). Helena might have it too.


I just got 2x 50# bags of AMS from Advanced Turf for like $34.. this will last me the entire Fall N Blitz.


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## BobRoss

Ok, I found Scotts Pro Lawn Fert 26-0-3. It is 12.2% Ammoniacal nitrogen and 7.6% Urea at a local fleet farm. Is Ammoniacal Nitrogen the same as AS? I live in Northern Minnesota in small rural area so the hometown folder does not help. I checked fleet supply, fleet farm and tractor supply. I also checked some of the small farm stores, but they are so small and don't carry any lawn supplies.


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## jrubb42

BobRoss said:


> Ok, I found Scotts Pro Lawn Fert 26-0-3. It is 12.2% Ammoniacal nitrogen and 7.6% Urea at a local fleet farm. Is Ammoniacal Nitrogen the same as AS? I live in Northern Minnesota in small rural area so the hometown folder does not help. I checked fleet supply, fleet farm and tractor supply. I also checked some of the small farm stores, but they are so small and don't carry any lawn supplies.


I normally don't go all out and start calling places for people but since you're a Minnesotan like myself, I thought I'd try. I called a local co-op in Thief River Falls and they gave me a number to a co-op in Goodridge (20 mins away?) that has Urea fertilizer. I tried calling them but didn't get an answer. I figured you could do the rest of the work from here. You're supposed to ask for Mishawn when you call. 218-378-4185. Good luck!


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## BobRoss

Oh, wow. Thanks! Who did you try calling the first time? Maybe I am just checking the wrong places.


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## jrubb42

Cenex Farmers Union off of Main Ave and 6th St. I just typed in "co-op" in the Thief River Falls area of Google Maps. There were 4 of them that popped up, but the Cenex was the first one I called. If something falls through with that Goodridge place, I'd try giving the other ones a call but the guy at Cenex sounded pretty confident.


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## haas

thud said:


> I am a newbie here. Does anyone just go to an agricultural fertilizer plant and buy urea from them? I have fertilizer plant close buy and they will sell me granular urea or premixed npk in bags in different ratios. They would do a custom blend as well for a larger order. Would this be a good idea?


My local bulk plant pretty much handles all my fertilizer needs.


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## corneliani

I haven't found the 21-0-0 formulation locally either (albeit didn't search too deeply). The closet SiteOne comes is an 18-0-0 for about $25/50#.

https://www.siteone.com/pdf/sdsPDF?resourceId=17207


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## NewLawnJon

I have spray grade urea left over from last year that I was spreading as a granular. Is there a benefit to spraying urea compared to spreading it when the time comes?


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## JDgreen18

So I was thinking about this. Is fall a time we just push N and not other nutrients. Most talk about urea or AMS when talking about the nitrogen blitz.


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## g-man

@NewLawnJon either one works, but foliar rates are different.

@JDgreen18 other nutrients should be done per your soil test.


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## JDgreen18

g-man said:


> @NewLawnJon either one works, but foliar rates are different.
> 
> @JDgreen18 other nutrients should be done per your soil test.


Yep thats what I thought...👍👍


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## g-man

Edit to add info around POA a in the first post.


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## jcm412

I am new. I can't find the hometown thread. I would like to find a place in norther IL to buy Urea and/or AMS. Can someone give me a link or tell me where to find the hometown thread.


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## Pete1313

@jcm412 conservfs, siteone, reinders.


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## mribbens

Pete1313 said:


> @jcm412 conservfs, siteone, reinders.


+1 on that, Conserve FS in Wauconda is the spot for your needs.


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## g-man

While temperatures look lower than average for August. Rain looks above average for the next 8-14 days for most of the midwest.


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## Alex1389

g-man said:


> While temperatures look lower than average for August. Rain looks above average for the next 8-14 days for most of the midwest.


As of now, this looks like a much better renovation season than last year. Hopefully this pattern holds...


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## Jayray

Curious how much N other people have put down this far in the year before starting the blitz? I am at 1.7 lbs. I probably should have pushed it more in the late spring. My empty spots all filled in but I still didn't get the thickness this year I was hoping for after going from 2 inches HOC last year to 1 inch this year. Maybe I'll start to see that when I start the blitz but we are at our highest temperatures of the year right now in the Pacific NW so I don't plan on putting any N down any time soon.


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## beardizzle1

I put down 2.3 lbs of organic N and plan to put down 3.25 lbs of AMS for the fall blitz's. This is the first year my lawn has been taken care of so I've hit it pretty hard with the NExt Bio-Stim pack and N. I don't anticipate to hit it with 2.3 lbs next year at this point. I did .25 a couple weeks ago and 3 weeks before that I did .25lbs.. both organic slow-release. I've had a big issue with creeping Charlie and crabgrass,'..


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## JDgreen18

g-man said:


> While temperatures look lower than average for August. Rain looks above average for the next 8-14 days for most of the midwest.


This is a good weather pattern I might have to drop seed sooner than later.


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## g-man

I edited the main post to add this video. Great current info on fungus. They also discuss grubs. The wet june allowed the grubs eggs to survives, so be cautious. It has a great tip at 7:53. Even Half rate of Acelepryn (liquid Chlorantraniliprole) right now can archive 90% control. This is the same active ingredient in Scott GrubEx, but Scott's is granular.

https://vimeo.com/351668886


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## saidtheblueknight

Looking for some guidance as the time is coming for the blitz and this is the first time doing it. To note, I have a very low level of phosphorous in the soil (as determined by a recent soil test) so bear that in mind as I lay out my plan.

Mid-late August - heavy dose of Milorganite = 0.96N/ 1000
Early October - Lesco starter at bag rate =0.75N/ 1000
Early November - Scotts (chose this because I have it leftover and contains mainly fast acting Nitrogen) = 1.07N/ 1000

This is located in norther MA, mix of TTTF and PRG with ground temps averaging 48* to 42* from in the first half of November. Any suggestions for or against this plan?


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## g-man

It sounds good. You could push up the oct and nov into mid sept and mid oct.


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## saidtheblueknight

g-man said:


> It sounds good. You could push up the oct and nov into mid sept and mid oct.


Thanks. I'm trying to stay away from having *too* much top growth, hence the reasoning for going with a slow release first and then waiting till it cools down for the final N push. Would it benefit more in the long run to bring in the feeding earlier in the season (sep/oct vs. oct/nov)?


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## Dkrem

My fall plan always is to wait until tamps fall off and regular rain starts returning, since fert won't do much without rain. At that time I put out about .25#N/M once a week or so as long as we have had rain that week. I keep this up until we start getting frost.


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## g-man

The latest research from Doug Soldat suggest that early is better. The research is not published yet, but he did a webcast about it and it had some good slides.


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## Sinclair

g-man said:


> The latest research from Doug Soldat suggest that early is better. The research is not published yet, but he did a webcast about it and it had some good slides.


Do you have a link?


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## g-man

@Sinclair

https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


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## Sinclair

@g-man thanks! 😊


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## NewLawnJon

@Gman107 if spraying urea instead of spreading it weekly what rate should I be looking to do? Last year I spread it at around .3lbs N/M and had good results (other than the dog pee burned more than normal).


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## Green

g-man said:


> @Sinclair
> 
> https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


I'm partway through this now; thanks for the link. At 28:00, the graph is very interesting to me. There is hardly any more late-season N taken up in the experiment at the 2 lb/M rate versus the 0.5 N/M rate. And Soldat interprets this as "We should be adjusting our Nitrogen rates downward as temperature decreases because uptake efficiency drops."

Having been continuously dropping my late-season Fall "Winterizing" Nitrogen application rates lower and lower over the past few years, my own home lawn experience was that there was little or no difference in subjective early Spring performance between 1.25 lb/M and 0.5 lb/M (in different years). Maybe this year I'll finally get to do a head-to-head test with different rates in adjacent areas to confirm that.

But to me, the takeaway of that particular slide and his explanation, is that if I'm going to do the final application, there is no reason to use more than 0.5 lb/M of N, as this past Spring's experience supports.

I will say it seemed like the two lawns in my neighborhood that received the latest Nitrogen applications, both showed better early Spring (April) color, so I'm still a believer in the final application for the time being. But excessive amounts of Nitrogen don't seem necessary.

Speaking of excessive, when it comes to the actual blitz and similar Fall programs, I see some people applying 0.5 N/M weekly for like 6 weeks. To me, that's excessive. Maybe by the end of the presentation, I'll have a better understanding for the scientific reasoning behind my opinion to back it up with.


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## Pologuy

I havent applied anything this season to date. I mowed to 3.0 height. Definitely see some shivering. Today was very hot. I was thinking of adding 0.5 every 2 weeks along with ferrous sulfate. I'm somewhatdiscouraged due to fact I dont want to spray with a backpack sprayer 22,000 sqft. I was able to find 50lb bags of ammonium sulfate for $13.

I picked up some humic from kelp4less. It arrived today and not soluble at all. Like rocks in water. They told me to broadcast it but it doesnt seem like it would break down. I put it in very hot water and nothing happened.

Now I'm wondering what should I do.


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## g-man

PSA

If you haven't started, some organic or a light dose of fertilizer is in order.


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## g-man

@Pologuy 22ksqft with a backpack will be a workout. Why not granular?


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## Pologuy

g-man said:


> @Pologuy 22ksqft with a backpack will be a workout. Why not granular?


I was thinking the same thing. Thats what prompted me to go with the humic granular. I thought it would breakdown with water like Anderson's DG. It gets expensive trying to add N. Trying to figure out more cost effective ways.


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## ryeguy

Pologuy said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Pologuy 22ksqft with a backpack will be a workout. Why not granular?
> 
> 
> 
> I was thinking the same thing. Thats what prompted me to go with the humic granular. I thought it would breakdown with water like Anderson's DG. It gets expensive trying to add N. Trying to figure out more cost effective ways.
Click to expand...

I don't think putting it in hot water is enough of a test. On your lawn it's exposed to water and dew for weeks on end, as well as sunlight. Maybe it doesn't break down as quickly as Anderson's humic but it still might given enough time.


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## Green

@Pologuy, can you get some organic? You really don't need that much for a light app. 4 bags of Milorganite would give you a little over 1/3 lb N on 22K area. It's preferable to the ammonium sulfate in this heat. If you're overseeding, the Milo can go down at that time as well. Won't hurt anything at that low a rate (but best to wait about 4 weeks after the seed goes down before using any fertilizer if you're really set on overseeding). I'd get that seed down now, and then fertilize in 4 weeks.


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## jcm412

Has anyone tried this for a nitrogen blitz? 19-0-5, .37 Prodiamine, 25% Stabilized Nitrogen. It has urea as the nitrogen source and the fall pre-m. I figure kill two birds with one stone?

I was thinking one application of this and then an application of AS 2weeks later.


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## Grasshopper

Wondering what kind of effect PGR along with the blitz will have on KBG's ability to spread and fill in bare areas/rhizome activity?

Would blizting without PGR and daily mowing encourage lateral growth and help fill things in faster compared to with PGR?


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## tgreen

g-man said:


> [https://vimeo.com/351668886]video[/url].


These OSU vids are fantastic. Thanks for posting it. I was trying to figure out how to see the full library and found the twitter account where they are posted. In case anyone else is interested

https://twitter.com/OSU_ATI_Turf

Here's the latest one

https://vimeo.com/ationline/review/354328400/3cf5924c1e


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## g-man

@tgreen I really wish they could also make them a podcast. I have more time to listen in the car than watching a video. Of course the video has pictures that help.


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## krusej23

Grasshopper said:


> Wondering what kind of effect PGR along with the blitz will have on KBG's ability to spread and fill in bare areas/rhizome activity?
> 
> Would blizting without PGR and daily mowing encourage lateral growth and help fill things in faster compared to with PGR?


I was wondering this also.


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## Green

jcm412 said:


> Has anyone tried this for a nitrogen blitz? 19-0-5, .37 Prodiamine, 25% Stabilized Nitrogen. It has urea as the nitrogen source and the fall pre-m. I figure kill two birds with one stone?
> 
> I was thinking one application of this and then an application of AS 2weeks later.


I've done something similar...I have Screamin' Green plus 0.37% Prodiamine, and have used that as the first app, and followed with one or two low rate apps of urea-based fertilizer over the following month or so. The only problem is that you're probably going to be using over 2 lbs/M of the fert + Prodiamine, so it's going to take several weeks before your grass is ready for more fert again. Just proceed cautiously and use common sense and you'll be fine...don't load up too fast, especially when using AMS.


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## g-man

^+1. I think you can do as green said. An August app with prodiamine and then a non preemergent fertilizer.


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## Green

krusej23 said:


> Grasshopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wondering what kind of effect PGR along with the blitz will have on KBG's ability to spread and fill in bare areas/rhizome activity?
> 
> Would blizting without PGR and daily mowing encourage lateral growth and help fill things in faster compared to with PGR?
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering this also.
Click to expand...

I've done it both ways in the past. But I'm no longer a fan of PGR use in the Summer and Fall due to disease. I found it slows things down too much and they don't fight off the disease well as a result of the slower growth. This has nothing to do with Nitrogen, though.


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## g-man

Labor day weekend is here. If you haven't, you should really start applying nitrogen to your lawn.

I've seen a few post of using HD/Lowe's products instead of urea/ams. They also work. They do have a slow release % to them and it will be ok. Account for the whole N (fast and slow) in your calculations. Water in the nitrogen.

Enjoy the mow.


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## uts

Can anybody recommend the spreader setting for applying AMS and urea on a Scott's dlx spreader? I picked up some urea and AMS today but it doesn't have a spreader setting on it.


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## trick

I think I had mine set on 2 last year,


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## uts

trick said:


> I think I had mine set on 2 last year,


Thank you. I was planning to put down some AMS today. A 50# bag over 24k lawn comes out to 0.437lb/M so even if I over do it there is no harm.

Will keep looking for more recommmendations.


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## bosox_5

Apply to a dry lawn and then water in. Maybe this is obvious advice, but I didn't know.


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## uts

bosox_5 said:


> Apply to a dry lawn and then water in. Maybe this is obvious advice, but I didn't know.


Was going to apply in the evening and water it tomorrow morning. There is rain in the forecast or can hit it with irrigation at 5am.

How soon do I need to water it in?


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## g-man

@uts the key is not the setting of the spreader, but the weight. Use a bathroom scale to make sure you get the weight right for the area. Then use the smallest setting to that flows to spread evenly.

Your calculation of just using one 50lb for your lawn is good and convinient (nothing to weight or store).

As long as the grass is dry so the fert falls into the ground instead of sticking to the leaves, you should not have a problem.


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## uts

g-man said:


> @uts the key is not the setting of the spreader, but the weight. Use a bathroom scale to make sure you get the weight right for the area. Then use the smallest setting to that flows to spread evenly.
> 
> Your calculation of just using one 50lb for your lawn is good and convinient (nothing to weight or store).
> 
> As long as the grass is dry so the fert falls into the ground instead of sticking to the leaves, you should not have a problem.


I was hoping to experiment with the AMS and if the prill size is relatively the same then just use the same setting for urea. Even if I drop a little higher it won't burn.

I updated my lawn journal with a few pictures can you help me with that as well?


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## Harts

@uts irrigating the next morning is fine. You just want to avoid applying to wet or damp grass otherwise you risk burning.


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## uts

Harts said:


> @uts irrigating the next morning is fine. You just want to avoid applying to wet or damp grass otherwise you risk burning.


Got it. Should have done it last night but got a little spooked bu this. Cant do it in the morning. If the rains allow then this evening it is.


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## MMoore

im at about 2.9lbs of N/m for the year so far. how much should/can I push the urea on KBG into the fall?

im using PGR so I don't have to cut as much, but I mostly want to get the rooting and density increase benefits... I have quite a few spots that need to fill in to make me happy.


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## SNOWBOB11

MMoore said:


> im at about 2.9lbs of N/m for the year so far. how much should/can I push the urea on KBG into the fall?
> 
> im using PGR so I don't have to cut as much, but I mostly want to get the rooting and density increase benefits... I have quite a few spots that need to fill in to make me happy.


.5 lb N/1000 every other week until avg first frost is what you want. You can do .25 lb N/1000 every week too if you so choose. I've done that but for a established lawn it's not necessary.


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## bosox_5

Put down my third round of N this fall. About 20 pounds of 46-0-0 across 19k. I used Carbon X on Aug 17 (it didn't work out so well). I watered it in and then we got an inch of rain last night. I hope I'm ok


----------



## Buddy

Once the fall nitrogen program begins, what is the expected timeframe to start seeing results using urea 46-0-0? How far in to start seeing green up, KBG spreading etc...?


----------



## JDgreen18

Buddy said:


> Once the fall nitrogen program begins, what is the expected timeframe to start seeing results using urea 46-0-0? How far in to start seeing green up, KBG spreading etc...?


I notice good growth from urea in about 3-4 days after applying and watered in.


----------



## g-man

A word of caution.

Normally for September we have at least a weekly rain and some nice temps (68F). But this year things are not looking too great for fall. We have 90F days in indy and no rain for a couple of weeks. Drought stress is starting to show up. The daylight is shorter (equal to around March).

If you cannot irrigate your lawn, don't do an aggressive fall nitrogen or *dont do any nitrogen*. While we all want to feed it nitrogen, if we can't supply water it will get stressed and cause harm.


----------



## Methodical

The journey has begun. Layed down my first app of 46-0-0 Sunday.


----------



## doverosx

Good point @g-man, this is what I was thinking up in Ottawa. I'm a bit different, going into a soil rehab and out of an overseed cycle so I'm looking to fully establish things. Looking to throw down 0.5lbs/N/week with CIL 10-2-4 +1.5%Fe (4-in 1), keep the phosphorus climbing up and will be transitioning back to the ProMix 20-0-5 Heal and Feed after the CIL.

Keeping my bag of Milo for the spring time ;-) and I'll keep pushing Air8/Humic12/RGS at max power/month until the last mow.


----------



## gregfromohio

doverosx said:


> Good point @g-man, this is what I was thinking up in Ottawa. I'm a bit different, going into a soil rehab and out of an overseed cycle so I'm looking to fully establish things. Looking to throw down 0.5lbs/N/week with CIL 10-2-4 +1.5%Fe (4-in 1), keep the phosphorus climbing up and will be transitioning back to the ProMix 20-0-5 Heal and Feed after the CIL.
> 
> Keeping my bag of Milo for the spring time ;-) and I'll keep pushing Air8/Humic12/RGS at max power/month until the last mow.


I wouldn't be afraid to throw that Milo down! Fertilizer doesn't do any good sitting in the garage.


----------



## g-man

^ unless it is sitting in the soil and being washed away into ponds/streams. It is still early and warm, so it is still good.


----------



## 7474

Thoughts on this...

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lilly-Miller-20-lb-4000-sq-ft-21-0-0-Lawn-Fertilizer/3806485

Free shipping and $20 off $100 coupon at Lowes.

Thanks.


----------



## g-man

That's 20lb of AMS for $13. It works, a bit on the high side in price.


----------



## pwnz

Threw down my first 0.5 lbs / 1000 sqft of urea pellets last week and went on a business trip. Of course not a single droplet of rain and without irrigation my lawn now looks like this


----------



## doverosx

Let's see where I'm at. I've been using CIL 4-in-1 because my fiancée grabbed it and I didn't see that it had seed in it so no big deal, I still calculate 0.5lbsN/1k and throw her down and it has nitrogen so the lawn is getting dark which is great. I did an early overseed at the cusp of the soil temperature downturn and got it timed perfectly. Any grass that sprouted from that first seeding has good roots already and any other new seedlings are gravy. My soil lacks so many nutrients that I'm also not too concerned with pushing things too much right now.

I added about 0.25lbs/N from Milo since temps will be peaking upwards and I have a bag to use anyway. I applied Weed Out as a broadcast spray with a little extra attention to the worse clusters of weeds and my goals of an organic recovery are over....the weeds are mostly gone/whittling, etc. I don't regret it at all, the weeds are easily manageable now and you can tell that the grass is getting 100% of the nutrients. Having said all of that, I had my most enjoyable mow on Monday. The lawn grew to 3.75-4" and the lawn mower was under load for the majority of the lawn for the first time! This weekend I'll be applying the minimum doses of RGS, Air8 and Humic12, following up with another shot of CIL 4-in-1 and I'll be taking a soil savvy test and getting that sent in to start building up my plan.

I'm really happy that I started my overseed project on the early side because despite doing it to build a lawn for next year, I ended up building a lawn for Halloween domination ;-). Also, once the CIL is finished, I'll move over to ProMIX Heal and Feed 20-0-5 to do the final apps of fert.

Oh I've been using 1500ft^2 as my quick estimate number and just verified that my area is actually 2300ft^2. I've been 1/8 teaspoon feeding my lawn and need to up it.


----------



## dmorrow5

I followed Fall Nitogen last season. This season I overseeded KBGmix Sept 1st the grass is still very young can I still follow Fall Nitrogen Blitz?


----------



## doverosx

Sept. 1st is probably too late to join in. There were some good references to feeding in 0.25lbs N/1k on weeks 4-6 in the Blitz thread. Maybe dosing in a small amount of N with good levels of P will help?


----------



## gregfromohio

Am I throwing down too much N? I have a partial reno that I'm feeding and a "thin" front yard that will be reno'd next year. I plan on doing more weekly applications through October. What do you think? Should I move to bi-weekly applications?

This is what I've done so far (Nitrogen):
September 13 - .30 lbs./1000 
September 22 - .65 lbs./1000
September 28 - .44 lbs./ 1000

The reason it hasn't been a true 7 days between applications is that I'm trying (the best I can) to time it with rain in the forecast.


----------



## Bladerunner

Wondering when to stop the blitz up here just north of Toronto. Weather is still warm and grass is growing really well, but temps are expected to drop to near freezing at night at the end of the week. I was thinking first week of October for last dose up here, as that is typically our first frost, just wondering if any of you in colder climates are pondering the timing of your last doses of N.


----------



## Avid123

I'm also near Toronto and am wondering about the upcoming low temps this week - approx 36F evening temp expected.

I had thrown down some starter 24-25-4 in early Sept (had a poor sod job done in July so spent some time fixing that). I was told to put one app of urea around first week of Oct - probably around 0.25N/k but I'm still learning the ropes and afraid of burning the lawn or applying it unevenly given the small physical quantity of urea (1200sq ft lawn - will need less than a pound).

Would a CIL 30-0-3 (80% quick release N) or Scotts 27-0-2 (75% quick release N) do the job for me in terms of the N requirements or are there any downsides to these? These seemed to be the ones with the lowest K , to avoid snow mold.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@Bladerunner Avg first frost is around October 10th. You want to stop feeding around that time.

@Avid123 Those products will work being they are mostly quick release. Urea or AMS is best as they are 100% fast release.


----------



## g-man

This was a good Fall Nitrogen podcast on Frankly Speaking featuring Dr. Karl Guillard. They discuss the fall nitrogen as a function of ET, the consumption of K as a function of N and carbon feeding into the soil.

https://www.blogtalkradio.com/turfnet/2019/09/27/frankly-speaking-dr-karl-guillard-on-late-season-nitrogen-fertilization

One of the concepts discussed is how the soil N concentration is absorbed as a function of the water mass transfer in the plant, which leads to think about foliar feeding to bypass the soil. Maybe something to experiment @Pete1313?


----------



## Pete1313

@g-man, it is interesting and with some of the PDFs we shared from UNL https://turf.unl.edu/turf-info suggesting spoon feeding until grass growth stops makes your mind wonder about foliar and if there would be some benefit or more effective uptake in late season. Although this recommendation was for sand based systems, I wonder the benefit on soil systems that are foliar fed.


> Sand-based turf systems (i.e. golf greens, tee, athletic fields): Continue to spoon-field soluble nitrogen sources (i.e. urea, ammonium sulfate, liquid fertilizers) into the fall. Gradually reduce nitrogen rate as evapotranspiration and soil temperature declines. Final application should be made once growth rate has ceased for the season.


For me, I have a PGR and foliar urea/FS app planned in a week, and debate putting down a urea/FS spray a couple weeks after that which would be a couple weeks after my average first frost. I have done late season FAS on 11/11/17 and late season FerromecAC at a rate that would supply almost .10 lb/M of N on 10/27/18 in the past.


----------



## Harts

gregfromohio said:


> Am I throwing down too much N? I have a partial reno that I'm feeding and a "thin" front yard that will be reno'd next year. I plan on doing more weekly applications through October. What do you think? Should I move to bi-weekly applications?
> 
> This is what I've done so far (Nitrogen):
> September 13 - .30 lbs./1000
> September 22 - .65 lbs./1000
> September 28 - .44 lbs./ 1000
> 
> The reason it hasn't been a true 7 days between applications is that I'm trying (the best I can) to time it with rain in the forecast.


I don't think anyone answered this. Looks like you've applied 1.39lb N/M in about 15 days. That's a very aggressive approach. I would back off to 0.25lb N/M weekly, especially as we get closer to the end of the season. Keep in mind that as the soil temps start to cool down, there is only so much nitrogen uptake the grass can handle. In other words, higher amounts of N aren't more effective than smaller doses. Keep applying until first frost.


----------



## zeus201

Pete1313 said:


> For me, I have a PGR and foliar urea/FS app planned in a week, and debate putting down a urea/FS spray a couple weeks after that which would be a couple weeks after my average first frost. I have done late season FAS on 11/11/17 and late season FerromecAC at a rate that would supply almost .10 lb/M of N on 10/27/18 in the past.


Are there any cons applying PGR as we near our first frost date? My last app of PGR was early September and sometimes wish I kept it regulated for a few more weeks.


----------



## Pete1313

zeus201 said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me, I have a PGR and foliar urea/FS app planned in a week, and debate putting down a urea/FS spray a couple weeks after that which would be a couple weeks after my average first frost. I have done late season FAS on 11/11/17 and late season FerromecAC at a rate that would supply almost .10 lb/M of N on 10/27/18 in the past.
> 
> 
> 
> Are there any cons applying PGR as we near our first frost date? My last app of PGR was early September and sometimes wish I kept it regulated for a few more weeks.
Click to expand...

Cons could be too slow of growth, especially if you have or develop any type of fungus.

There are some benefits to fall and late season trinexapac-ethyl applications that I talked about before. Here is a greencast link that I posted before(although the research was on putting greens).
http://www.greencastonline.com/techarticle.aspx?gcaid=170761



> Benefits of Fall Applications with Nitrogen + Primo Maxx:
> • Increases carbohydrate reserves within the plant resulting in greater tolerance of cold temperatures
> • Enhances spring canopy density (GNDVI: Green Normalized Differential Vegetative
> Index) by increasing chlorophyll content
> • Preserves N in leaf tissue over winter
> • Suppresses early spring growth and reduces clipping yields
> • Suppresses winter damage
> 
> "When N and TE (Primo Maxx) were applied in autumn (particularly after the first hard frost), early spring growth was suppressed by residual activity of TE, even when tissue N concentrations were high¹".
> 
> "Primo Maxx significantly enhanced Spring GNDVI readings, resulting in better turfgrass canopy density. This supports the claim on the Primo Maxx label that TE improves canopy density¹".


Here are some other posts where I linked to some of the benefits.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=533&p=220194&hilit=Pgr+cool#p208597

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=208580#p192392


----------



## uts

Applied my first dose of carbon X yesterday(front) and this morning (backyard and sides). Started raining when I was applying it to the front lawn so had to stop. This is my third nitrogen dose at every 14-16 day interval at 0.5lb/1k.

The grass has definitely responded well to the nitrogen. One thing il have to see is my K levels after all of this. I was thinking of putting down a 0.5lb/1k -12lbs of SOP in one go. Any harm in applying that or more especially with the end of the season?

Also I have never applied any iron containing product so this is going to be a good first. Lots of rain in between yesterday and today.


----------



## Green

uts said:


> One thing il have to see is my K levels after all of this. I was thinking of putting down a 0.5lb/1k -12lbs of SOP in one go. Any harm in applying that or more especially with the end of the season?


Possibly. There are studies floating around showing increased snow mold pressure when Potassium applications are later in the season and/or more in total is used over the whole year.

I take this seriously as someone who has had snow mold before. The only Potassium that gets put down from September on for me is what's in my other fertilizer. And I usually pick those so as to minimize the amounts of Potassium that goes down in the Fall. Actually, I'm now taking this to an extreme, and doing all my Potassium apps before August, so it has 4-5 months to work into the soil before lots of snow comes.

I've only applied 0.125 lb/M of Potassium so far this Fall, and am not planning to apply more than 0.25-0.3 lb/M of K in total for the entire Fall, again, all coming from other fertilizers (where I can't avoid it, unless I used straight urea or AMS only).

Year-to-date, I've applied 1.37 lb/M of K, and my total for the year will only be about 1.6 lb/M...which is fine (even though I could have used more according to my soil test), since I'll have applied 3-3.5 or so lbs of N, and the ratio between the two is adequate.


----------



## doverosx

We got a frost advisory in Ottawa but no frost and after a day of rain and overcast, soil temps are still 60F. I'd wager that the shut down time would see soil temps steadily below 55F and a solid morning frost, right?

Air temps are expected to shoot back up next week before settling down to the usual decay. I'm also pushing really aggressive 0.5/week.


----------



## gregfromohio

Harts said:


> gregfromohio said:
> 
> 
> 
> Am I throwing down too much N? I have a partial reno that I'm feeding and a "thin" front yard that will be reno'd next year. I plan on doing more weekly applications through October. What do you think? Should I move to bi-weekly applications?
> 
> This is what I've done so far (Nitrogen):
> September 13 - .30 lbs./1000
> September 22 - .65 lbs./1000
> September 28 - .44 lbs./ 1000
> 
> The reason it hasn't been a true 7 days between applications is that I'm trying (the best I can) to time it with rain in the forecast.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anyone answered this. Looks like you've applied 1.39lb N/M in about 15 days. That's a very aggressive approach. I would back off to 0.25lb N/M weekly, especially as we get closer to the end of the season. Keep in mind that as the soil temps start to cool down, there is only so much nitrogen uptake the grass can handle. In other words, higher amounts of N aren't more effective than smaller doses. Keep applying until first frost.
Click to expand...

Will Do! Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## Green

doverosx said:


> We got a frost advisory in Ottawa but no frost and after a day of rain and overcast, soil temps are still 60F. I'd wager that the shut down time would see soil temps steadily below 55F and a solid morning frost, right?


Grass usually grows noticeably but slowly below soil temps of 45F, until soil temps hit 40F and stay there.


----------



## doverosx

Green said:


> doverosx said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1570155908[/url] user_id=6991]
> We got a frost advisory in Ottawa but no frost and after a day of rain and overcast, soil temps are still 60F. I'd wager that the shut down time would see soil temps steadily below 55F and a solid morning frost, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Grass usually grows noticeably but slowly below soil temps of 45F, until soil temps hit 40F and stay there.
Click to expand...

Believe it or not, I could only find temp limits for germination so thank you very much!

While I'm here, I was wondering if I should be throwing down a preEmergent before things really shut down. I'm on week 6 after seeding and there are a lot of conflicting opinions but it looks like you're dealing with the same weather, etc.


----------



## doverosx

Found the prodiamine instructions so I'm going to order some in hopes I can get it down before soil temps hit 50F, next year's lawn is looking like it'll be in tip top shape this year ;-).

Thanks for everyone's help, the constant compliments from neighbors and the new pressure to take on the "condo lite" board that manages the lawn around our area is awesome lol.


----------



## rtdad

I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything I throw down so today I grabbed a small bag of Scott's winter guard which is designed to treat 5,000 sq ft and tossed it all down on my 3,800. Lightly watered in. We'll see what happens!


----------



## g-man

rtdad said:


> I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything I throw down


FYI, This is a good way to kill a lawn.


----------



## osuturfman

g-man said:


> rtdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything I throw down
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, This is a good way to kill a lawn.
Click to expand...

If some is good, more is gooder?


----------



## doverosx

Ummm, with a lower percentage of N you might be okay but Scott's winter guard is like 32% N so your "fudge" buffer is low. I think it's 30% slow release so you might get away with it.


----------



## davegravy

rtdad said:


> I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything...


Please don't tell me you're a doctor


----------



## jhealy748

So I already had the s word on my lawn this fall for about a week, and it has dipped below freezing once or twice, can or should I keep up with the weekly apps of .25 lb/M of urea? It is supposed to be in the mid 50's for the next couple weeks now it looks like but as you can tell we get some weird weather so I never know for sure! The grass still looks great and doesn't show any real signs of damage yet so I am thinking the snow kept it warm enough to keep it from going dormant? Any opinions? I think I get to go pick up my new to me triplex tonight and I would love to get a mow or 2 in before the season is over!


----------



## Stuofsci02

Yeah... you can apply until the grass stops growing... soil temperature is far more important than air temp... you can have snow and nice grass at the same time...


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@jhealy748 I'd stop with nitrogen now. You don't want to be pushing top growth when the grass wants to be slowing down. Continue to mow until growth stops but no more fertilizer.


----------



## Chris LI

Your average first frost is generally the best indicator of when to stop applying N. Since you had more than one day below freezing, you probably should stop N, unless those days were much earlier than the avg first frost date. Below is a link from Dave's Garden with a zip code lookup, for your reference.

https://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/


----------



## jhealy748

yeah it looks like my average first frost date was the 29th of Sept. so I will be done with the N for the year. What a sad time of the year!!


----------



## saidtheblueknight

SNOWBOB11 said:


> @jhealy748 I'd stop with nitrogen now. You don't want to be pushing top growth when the grass wants to be slowing down. Continue to mow until growth stops but no more fertilizer.


Just because you're providing nitrogen doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be pushing top growth. Providing nitrogen after top growth has slowed down or stopped makes the plant store those nutrients as carbohydrates in the root and crowns instead. It doesn't magically make grass grow when it can't grow because of outside factors. You can push all the nitrogen you want, if the growing factors are not there it won't grow. I wish it was that easy to make grass grow by just providing it nitrogen whenever. We'd all have beautifully green and growing grasses even in the dead of winter.

All you guys stopping fertilization at the first sign of frost are kinda jumping the gun for no reason. There's a big difference between multiple days of hard freezes and a light frost here and there with daytime highs in the 50s and 60s. It got to 31 the other night, but the next 10 days are forested to be between 45 and 65 so soil temps will remain in the 50s...plenty of warmth for soil and grass activity. If you have multiple days in the mid 20s with highs only in the low 40s yeah maybe it's time to put the spreader away, but one light frost is not the end of the season.


----------



## uts

^^ this. Also I realized that investing in a soil temp probe was a great investment. Timing for premeergents and fertilizers becomes easier. A soil probe is a fraction of the cost of the preemergent and fertilizer you will put down.

I do think though that below 45F I would stop pushing nitrogen due to decreased utilization. From my research that is probably when we will start to notice the mower not cutting much.


----------



## Stuofsci02

... I agree, but did not want to open a can of worms.....


----------



## 86halibut

Interesting experience yesterday buying urea at SiteOne. The gentleman tentatively asked what I was going to put it on...? When I said turf (100% kbg) he about had a heart attack! His brain went haywire and started spouting facts about how that is the ab-so-lute worse thing I could do right now. Something about frying the root zone, carbohydrate stores, and soil structure. Said this is the WORST time of year and I would lose the lawn. He kept going on. I did not have time to argue with the professional horticulturalist so I just smiled and told him I'd take my chances. Next time I'll just say the urea is for blueberry bushes......


----------



## g-man

@saidtheblueknight @uts @Stuofsci02

This is a good webinar from Dr. Soldat on what happens with nitrogen during the fall.

https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


----------



## crazymas0n

you've got all the good resources, thanks for sharing @g-man


----------



## Stuofsci02

g-man said:


> @saidtheblueknight @uts @Stuofsci02
> 
> This is a good webinar from Dr. Soldat on what happens with nitrogen during the fall.
> 
> https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


Yeah I have watched that before. What I recall from the presentation was that there were major reductions in efficiencies when the application rates were high (1lb to 2lb N per K), but far less reductions when the rates were lower (in the 0.25lbN/k range). Additionally there were color benefits that lasted longer and started earlier the next season when N was applied later in the season. That may or may not be a good reason to do it, but is certainly an added benefit if you want a nice green for more of the season.

The biggest take away that I recall was that the root mass was not actually affected (statistically) by the amount of N at anytime during the fall, and was more a function of reduced temperatures. Based on that you would think that there is little reason to apply fertilizer in the fall and yet we do see benefit from the Nitrogen blitz... I think more study is required...


----------



## Green

86halibut said:


> Interesting experience yesterday buying urea at SiteOne. The gentleman tentatively asked what I was going to put it on...? When I said turf (100% kbg) he about had a heart attack! His brain went haywire and started spouting facts about how that is the ab-so-lute worse thing I could do right now. Something about frying the root zone, carbohydrate stores, and soil structure. Said this is the WORST time of year and I would lose the lawn. He kept going on. I did not have time to argue with the professional horticulturalist so I just smiled and told him I'd take my chances. Next time I'll just say the urea is for blueberry bushes......


Sounds like he lives in the Southern hemisphere, and has Fall and Spring switched in his mind. Spring is when applying too much Nitrogen causes carbohydrate stores to run out. That said, my neighbor did it, applying N all Spring and Summer long, and their lawn seems fine.

Did he have an Australian or South African accent by chance?


----------



## Green

saidtheblueknight said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> jhealy748 I'd stop with nitrogen now. You don't want to be pushing top growth when the grass wants to be slowing down. Continue to mow until growth stops but no more fertilizer.
> 
> 
> 
> Just because you're providing nitrogen doesn't mean it's necessarily going to be pushing top growth.
> 
> ............
> 
> If you have multiple days in the mid 20s with highs only in the low 40s yeah maybe it's time to put the spreader away, but one light frost is not the end of the season.
Click to expand...

I don't think either of you are totally wrong...but there is reduced efficiency as Fall progresses as mentioned in the webinar G-man linked to. And there is also a point in time where you do indeed want to cease applying N a few weeks before cold Winter weather starts (if you get any type of real Winter in your area, at least), because Nitrogen seems to be a pro-disease and injury factor when applied too late. I've heard the same about late-season Potassium (snow mold) and even Calcitic Lime (again, snow mold...most of you likely haven't heard this one yet, though). I tend to believe in the possibility/err on the side of caution with all of these Nutrients as it gets colder...but supposedly a 4-week window is supposed to be sufficient for stopping/tapering the Nitrogen down before growth ceases* for the Winter.

----------
*I'm not 100% convinced that growth truly ceases entirely over the Winter. There are freezes and thaws in many regions, and it seems to perk up sometimes for a week or so during thaws in January or February. In the webinar, Soldat mentions people fertilizing as late as January in Wisconsin.


----------



## Green

One quick comment:

at 38:00, he has a slide showing recommendations for fast or slow release applications that would have fairly efficient uptake profiles in different Fall months.

I noted the 0.5-1.0 lb N recommendation of slow release recommended in mid September. This basically agrees with what I did. I dropped about 0.75-1.0 lb of slow release and 0.75-0.5 lb of fast release in mid September, all at once (total of 1.5 lbs N), and the results so far seem to be pretty good. I had originally based this on an earlier recommendation from research that suggested a 50/50 blend of slow/fast release N in mid September, but I wanted to try to increase the amount to 1.5 lbs to see what happened.

Also, I think I mentioned this 6 months ago, but the slide at 28:00 answers a long-standing question I had. How does amount of late-season (Nov/Dec) N uptake vary based on amount applied/available to the plant? For example, if you Winterize, and use 1.0 lb N, does more get uptaken than if you use 0.5 lb N? I did not see how using more could force more uptake. And this slide basically shows similar amounts of uptake for 0.5 lb and 1.0 lb Nov. applications.

They got about 0.25 lb uptaken out of the 0.5 lb app, and about 0.33 lb uptaken for the 1.0 lb app. So in terms of efficiency, the 0.5 lb wins. I'll bet that in December (when I typically do my final winterizer) the decreasing trend would hold, and the numbers would be even closer together.

This tells me that using a full 1 lb app of winterizing N is a gross waste and will be lost to leaching (and probably moreso the more sandy your soil is, to a degree). This agrees with my subjective Spring results after getting good results with 0.5 lb N.

I'm considering pitting the two rates against each other this Fall by doing a small section with 1.0 lb rate inside the larger lawn which will get the same 0.5 N rate as last year.

I'm also considering dropping my rate down to 0.33 lb on the low-input area to see what happens (with a 0.5 lb test plot too).

So, I may do a 1.0 lb test plot inside a 0.5 lb test plot inside the larger lawn area which will use the 0.33 lb rate.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Good points @Green. I'm not sure why @saidtheblueknight post had a bit of a combative tone to it. I was giving my thoughts from different things I've read over time on when it's best to start backing off fertilizer. Anyone is welcome to continue adding N on top of a foot of snow if they like.

The webinar is good and has a lot of good points. One thing as you mentioned is late N can increase disease pressure. That's why you do hear a lot of times to stop nitrogen around the avg first frost. Fungicides can be costly and with the somewhat minor increase in color from adding N right into November I'm not sure the risk is worth it.

Also I take away that a lot of the N there talking about is sprayed and not from granular. As it gets later in the season you can see from the study a lot of the nitrogen gets lost. I assume the member that asked the original question is using granular so I'd think you'd get a even higher amount of nitrogen lost.

There are a few different thoughts and even the webinar had several different options. I was giving my recommendation to the member for what I thought was best for the situation and conditions he described. There are certainly other ways to go about fall N and that's why it's good to have a discussion to get all view points.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

Honestly with how mild our winters are here i am sure i could get away with fert all year. Its rare if we get snow that lasts more than 2-3 days in a single year, a few years ago we had snow on the ground for like 5-7 days straight and it all but shut the entire north western half of the state down lol.

Problem is i am sure it would cause some top growth, even not ferting last year and cutting at 1", my lawn was probably 3-4 inches by April. Slow growth but definitely still growing. The larger problem with this is the ground is usually super saturated so it would be hard to find days to mow and not totally tear up the turf with wheel marks.


----------



## rtdad

g-man said:


> rtdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything I throw down
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, This is a good way to kill a lawn.
Click to expand...

FYI best year ever this year, never killed anything. But then again it's pretty hard to kill my lawn when the worst thing I put down is milo sometimes and light on the starter fert after seeding.


----------



## rtdad

davegravy said:


> rtdad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never been a proponent of accurately measuring everything...
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't tell me you're a doctor
Click to expand...

Everything comes prepackaged nowadays and if not my pharmacists and nurses got my back! :thumbup: Kidding!


----------



## Avid123

I have one of these Scotts rotary spreaders that I used for my starter:
https://images.app.goo.gl/P7dHqYwaNELkhTqv8

My starter was about 3lbs total so a decent quantity, the urea (prills) I am debating about putting down would be less than 1lb (I have a 1200 sq ft yard) - does anyone use the above type of rotary spreader for the urea app and is there a greater chance of uneven application with it compared to a handheld drop spreader (which then I might need to buy).
Thanks !


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## 86halibut

Green said:


> Sounds like he lives in the Southern hemisphere, and has Fall and Spring switched in his mind. Spring is when applying too much Nitrogen causes carbohydrate stores to run out. That said, my neighbor did it, applying N all Spring and Summer long, and their lawn seems fine.
> 
> Did he have an Australian or South African accent by chance?


Yea there were some holes in his story that even a noob like myself could see. Now is literally the time to be feeding cool season lawns here. Plus, sometimes he called my grass fescue and sometimes called it bluegrass :lol: No accent though, and I don't recall him saying "yo mate, whattup, welcome to another..."



Avid123 said:


> I have one of these Scotts rotary spreaders that I used for my starter:
> https://images.app.goo.gl/P7dHqYwaNELkhTqv8
> 
> My starter was about 3lbs total so a decent quantity, the urea (prills) I am debating about putting down would be less than 1lb (I have a 1200 sq ft yard) - does anyone use the above type of rotary spreader for the urea app and is there a greater chance of uneven application with it compared to a handheld drop spreader (which then I might need to buy).
> Thanks !


I vote for handheld rotary spreader. I have that broadcast spreader and I hate it. It's cheap but the main problem is the wheels. Product collects in the holes and gets dumped in uneven strips leaving an undesirable effect. Look it up, it's all over the web. I've been using the Scotts Whirl hand spreader this year and actually love it. I like the even coverage and control. It's perfect for the hell strip too. They have the battery powered one too the Wizz.


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## Dkrem

86halibut said:


> ...They have the battery powered one too the Wizz.


Wizz is kinda ok, but I wasn't a fan... I found the perfect spreader for light throwdowns, the Solo 421 chest spreader. It probably has the same size hopper as the wheeled plastic scotts machine. It is perfect for Urea, seed, etc... I wouldn't use it for milo or lime, at least for my acre. It is amazing, no wheels to hang up and you have about surgical precision on where the product goes by varying the setup, or the crank speed and your body position/angle. I can evenly cover my 6' sidewalk strip or throw 20'+ wide. Then just hose the whole thing off when done and let it dry, no electronics.


----------



## FORT

^ +1 on the Solo 421


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## Chris LI

+1 on hand spreaders for urea, due to the precision. I have an older Scotts Handy Green that does the trick. I also use it for seed application, Humic DG, and for light apps of Milo.


----------



## Mtsdream

Avid123 said:


> I have one of these Scotts rotary spreaders that I used for my starter:
> https://images.app.goo.gl/P7dHqYwaNELkhTqv8
> 
> My starter was about 3lbs total so a decent quantity, the urea (prills) I am debating about putting down would be less than 1lb (I have a 1200 sq ft yard) - does anyone use the above type of rotary spreader for the urea app and is there a greater chance of uneven application with it compared to a handheld drop spreader (which then I might need to buy).
> Thanks !


I just used the same spreader last night for 1.25lbs of urea total, works fine, just shake it a little when the product starts collecting on the sides


----------



## Dkrem

Chris LI said:


> +1 on hand spreaders for urea, due to the precision. I have an older Scotts Handy Green that does the trick. I also use it for seed application, Humic DG, and for light apps of Milo.


I have a 10-15 year old Handy Green 2 that I've used for all sorts of things if the small capacity is enough for the task, it holds about 4# urea. It is pretty fantastic for precision also.


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## Avid123

With the hand spreaders there's no way you can set the drop speed or setting right? Forgive my newbie ignorance but if you're putting down a small quantity like 0.75lb how can you ensure you don't run out of product before your lawn is covered?


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## Dkrem

Avid123 said:


> With the hand spreaders there's no way you can set the drop speed or setting right? Forgive my newbie ignorance but if you're putting down a small quantity like 0.75lb how can you ensure you don't run out of product before your lawn is covered?


They have adjustable gates similar to wheeled models. You can also vary your crank speed to adjust the throw distance. And you can walk at whatever speed you want. All effect the drop rate /sqft. Basically it takes a little experience to get dialed in to the product you are using, and your personal style and pace of applying it. Same guidelines apply as when sorting out a wheeled spreader, start light on the gate with a measured amount of product in a measured area and work your way up to applying it in one pass (or two perpendicular passes if you fly that way).

EDIT: typo.


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## Chris LI

Sorry to say, but practice and building technique, is how I got it down pat. Try to use the smallest spreader setting that will evenly spread the urea. You should be able to make passes in one direction and have enough material to make a second pass in a perpendicular direction (cross hatch). Keep going in a third direction (45* angle), if you still have some leftover. The other trick is to walk quickly. It's better to make several light passes to use the material up, in order to distribute it evenly.


----------



## Chris LI

Dkrem said:


> Avid123 said:
> 
> 
> 
> With the hand spreaders there's no way you can set the drop speed or setting right? Forgive my newbie ignorance but if you're putting down a small quantity like 0.75lb how can you ensure you don't run out of product before your lawn is covered?
> 
> 
> 
> They have adjustable gates similar to wheeled models. You can also vary your crank speed to adjust the throw distance. And you can walk at whatever speed you want. All effect the drop rate /sqft. Basically it takes a little experience to get dialed in to the product you are using, and your personal style and pace of applying it. Same guidelines apply as when sorting out a wheeled spreader, start light on the gate with a measured amount of product in a measured area and work your way up to applying it in one pass (or two perpendicular passes if you fly that way).
> 
> EDIT: typo.
Click to expand...

Yup. I forgot to mention crank speed...didn't have my coffee yet.


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## Avid123

Thanks everyone this is really helpful. Just wanted to check one more thing. It was getting a bit challenging finding urea in my area so I decided to buy a 30-0-3 fertilizer with 75% regular and 25% slow release N. It also seems to have 2% iron and some sulphur in it. So just wanted to check if there would be any issue at this time of year with putting down something with iron and sulphur ?
Thanks


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## g-man

No issues with iron or sulfur.


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## Rucraz2

I use a hand spreader on my dogs pen which is 500sqft. So 0.5 lbs. I just use the lowest setting and practice. Same as the rest of my 1 acre I fertilize. I usually go in 4 directions now. I used to go 1 or maybe 2 cause I was in a hurry with a higher setting. That always left lines. Now taking my time with it, I never see the lines and I am getting pretty good at figuring speeds ect. I have a ton of trees on hills with landscaping, so it isn't the easiest task.


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## uts

Been monitoring the soil temperatures here in CT and they seem to be falling rapidly now ( if that can ever be rapid, lol) the 24hr average was 52F. I did put down a bag of Carbon X today with an inch of rain coming in but I feel this might he the last dose of N I will give.

I had mowed earlier today and we definitely had some frost in the morning and the growth has definitely slowed down so those two things together tell the same story.

The lawn though looks good. I will spray some herbecide on friday hopefully while stuff is still growing some


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## Ryan1+2

I fell behind on my nitrogen blitz this year. So far here is what I applied.
8/17- 3 45 lbs. Bags of Ocean Gro 5-5-0 over 15k.
9/7- applied 1/4lbN per 1k using urea. Went light because of fungus concern.
10/12 - applied 0.6 lbs N per 1k using urea. 
My question is if and when should I apply more N. 
My grass is tttf/KBG mix that I renoed last fall. 
Grass is still growing and I am mowing approximately every 5 days. 
Temps are 62-69 daytime and 45-55 at night.

2nd question--I have another area that's approximately 6000k and I got a late start on Reno. 
Seed down was 10/2 I started seeing sprouts 10/8 and by 10/12 grass was 1/2-1" tall. Yesterday 10/19, it was approximately 3-3.5 " and I cut it for first time at 2 3/4".
I did not put down any starter fert at seeding because I read that the seed has the nutrients that the seedlings need. How soon should I put down starter fert?


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## Harts

As long as your grass is still growing and soil tens are favourable, you can do a light dose at 0.25 to 0.5lb N.

You can give the new grass a light dose approx 2 weeks after germination. Keep that new grass cut short. 1.5 to 2" for the first few cuts. Mow as often as you can.


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## Green

uts said:


> Been monitoring the soil temperatures here in CT and they seem to be falling rapidly now ( if that can ever be rapid, lol) the 24hr average was 52F. I did put down a bag of Carbon X today with an inch of rain coming in but I feel this might he the last dose of N I will give.
> 
> I had mowed earlier today and we definitely had some frost in the morning and the growth has definitely slowed down so those two things together tell the same story.
> 
> The lawn though looks good. I will spray some herbecide on friday hopefully while stuff is still growing some


Yeah, probably best for that to be the final app (unless you do a Winterizer later--but Carbon-X is not a real good choice for that). Ideally you want at least 4 weeks of no more fertilizer apps in late Fall, while it's still growing and being mowed (but you can still do a Winterizing app after that). Just let it do its thing on its own now...kind of like at the beginning of the Spring when they say not to put anything down until it's been mowed a few times. The only thing that should be done during this period (late Oct-early Nov for us) if absolutely needed is very light foliar sprays from urea or AMS (under 0.25 lb N rate, and decreasing in rate as it gets into late October; this can be challenging due to leaves, wind, and rain, though). You can also add small amounts of iron to Ammonium Sulfate sprays. There are instructions for this (FAS) on this site somewhere, I believe. I might do one more Carbon-X app this weekend due to Rust disease issues, though.


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## uts

Green said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been monitoring the soil temperatures here in CT and they seem to be falling rapidly now ( if that can ever be rapid, lol) the 24hr average was 52F. I did put down a bag of Carbon X today with an inch of rain coming in but I feel this might he the last dose of N I will give.
> 
> I had mowed earlier today and we definitely had some frost in the morning and the growth has definitely slowed down so those two things together tell the same story.
> 
> The lawn though looks good. I will spray some herbecide on friday hopefully while stuff is still growing some
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, probably best for that to be the final app (unless you do a Winterizer later--but Carbon-X is not a real good choice for that). Ideally you want at least 4 weeks of no more fertilizer apps in late Fall, while it's still growing and being mowed (but you can still do a Winterizing app after that). Just let it do its thing on its own now...kind of like at the beginning of the Spring when they say not to put anything down until it's been mowed a few times. The only thing that should be done during that period if absolutely needed is very light foliar sprays (under 0.25 lb N rate, and decreasing in rate as it gets into late October; this can be challenging due to leaves, wind, and rain, though). I might do one more Carbon-X app this weekend due to Rust disease issues, though.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. Will be doing lots of.mulch mowing since there is so much leaf cover that came down a few days back. I had to leave town the same day so wasn't able to. But will do on tuesday. Hopefully the turf won't get damaged too much. Some organic matter going back is great.

What do you recommend for a winterizer app?


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## Green

uts said:


> That's what I was thinking. Will be doing lots of.mulch mowing since there is so much leaf cover that came down a few days back. I had to leave town the same day so wasn't able to. But will do on tuesday. Hopefully the turf won't get damaged too much. Some organic matter going back is great.
> 
> What do you recommend for a winterizer app?


I just edited the previous post to add info about iron, by the way. It's a little trick that you can do in mid-to-late Fall or early-to-mid-Spring.

For the Winterizer, most people use 46-0-0 urea, 21-0-0 Ammonium Sulfate (careful with AMS if your pH is low already as it lowers it more), or any fertilizer off the shelf that's low in Potassium and low in Organics and low in slow release content, and contains predominantly one or both of those Nitrogen sources mentioned above. I also personally avoid anything containing Polymer coated urea and even sulfur-coated urea.

Latest scientific research shows it doesn't take as much fertilizer as people thought previously. I used 0.5 lb N rate last year and it worked fine. And it probably shouldn't be done on very sandy soil at all (though it works well on sandy loam). The payoff is strong early to mid Spring color and density.


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## Babameca

@Green Just one note. Late N apps are not being absorbed at high rates as earlier applied. Lower app rates will give even less 'actual' N to the lawn. There is discussion if late N is useful at all (on top of low conversion). Some 'schools' say to let lawn hardening (cumulate as much carbs as possible in the crown and start dropping water from blades). Other preach late N app to help early spring green-up. The second hypothesis showed very little/short term difference while comparing test plots.
Early green up can be easily achieved with an AS light app early spring which will be very highly absorbed (vs late fall) by the grass at this stage. Cheaper, controlled, safer IMO.


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## uts

Babameca said:


> @Green Just one note. Late N apps are not being absorbed at high rates as earlier applied. Lower app rates will give even less 'actual' N to the lawn. There is discussion if late N is useful at all (on top of low conversion). Some 'schools' say to let lawn hardening (cumulate as much carbs as possible in the crown and start dropping water from blades). Other preach late N app to help early spring green-up. The second hypothesis showed very little/short term difference while comparing test plots.
> Early green up can be easily achieved with an AS light app early spring which will be very highly absorbed (vs late fall) by the grass at this stage. Cheaper, controlled, safer IMO.


While my apps are to get my grass stronger, early green up is always welcome(by product for me).

For larger lawns spraying iron becomes problematic unless one has a toe behind which I dont have.

All of that said i agree with late fall apps just because the grass itself isnt growing and temperatures are low. Root mass also doesn't change significantly from what i have read.


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## Babameca

@uts With late N you will boost growth above what the grass is meant to do at this point, even if it looks slow to your eye compared to earlier stages. Grass will stay in growth mode (more leaf tissue, more water in it).
An unexpected frost or sudden change in weather conditions will hit it unprepared for it. Also only 25% of what you put now goes in the plant. There are great webinars from the PHD's in the field discussing all this, if you have the time and dedication to listen to . There are also plenty of fertilizers with up to 6% of Fe to boost color and they are granular. Up to you. Let us know how it worked next spring. I am off since Oct 2 and planning on Sustane 10-1-4 (75% AS and 2% FE) or GreenTRX 16-1-2 (60% AS 3% FE) early spring. Both add also organic matter (50% for Sustane from turkey litter, not clear about TRX).
B


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## Green

@uts, for our areas (you're a bit North of me, but I'm also a bit North of @JDgreen18, it's fine to be wrapping up Nitrogen apps now. We're not pushing past the normal slow-down phase based on our temperatures. As long as we give it at least 4 weeks or so wind down without Nitrogen apps, we're fine.

@Babameca, the uptake in late season was not fixed (not totally independent of amount of applied N). But it also was not a fully linear percent relationship between amount applied in the different rate groups, and amount uptaken in those studies. They hypothesized that uptake at this time was primarily via mass-flow, I believe, which makes sense. This means that if there's more N in the root zone, you might see more uptake. But it's less of a difference than people might expect. It's not a fixed percentage uptake regardless of amount applied as they initially said. This is a question that I had for a long time, and thankfully Soldat answered it in that lecture that's been circulating since last year (thanks to G-man for posting, it, I believe). Even in the very late apps in the graph (what we'd consider a final winterizing app) a much larger percentage of the applied N is uptaken when smaller amounts are used. The total amount uptaken is a bit lower in the lower applied-N groups than in the higher applied-N groups, but less is also lost to leaching in the lower app groups, and a higher percentage of the applied total is utilized.

My guess is that the lower amounts are sufficient for plant purposes, and that's why they provide very similar visual response in Spring to the higher N groups (all of which greened up better than the no-N group in the loam soil tests). I'll take less leaching/waste, gladly. Low-rate apps are the way to go in my area after September. The takeaway was don't do a final app if you have sand soil, and if you are doing one on loamy soil, use the least amount that you can get away with. I feel like the sweet spot from the data is somewhere between 0.5 and 0.25 lb of N. But I need to experiment more to determine how low I can go and still get the same sort of response I want in Spring (solid out of the gate green-up without excessive surge growth).

I still have active Rust disease, so I am going to push N as long as I can, without going too far. That means one more 0.25 granular app, a couple of low-rate sprays over the next two weeks if possible, and a final app in late November or early Dec. of 0.333 to 0.5 lb N. In addition to the fast-release N, this total will also include some methylene urea with the fert I use, which will sit until early Spring, and provide a similar "boost" to that AMS spray you mentioned. Supposedly it doesn't leach. Been doing it this way for like 3 years, with great results. The only variable that I continue modifying over time is the amounts of N applied.--decreasing them year-over-year in the final late app to see how little I can get away with.


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## Babameca

@Green Agree with all the comments. I do remember the graph showing applied vs absorbed for late apps. Early green up is also very weather dependant. The point I was simply trying to make is that 1/4 lbs N less at this point may cause 1-2 weeks delay in green up (but zero overall turf quality effect later) and the opposite and sudden frost and permanent drop in temperature may cost a winter kill and more troubles next early season. Based on the same webinar 'milking' few more weeks of golf course playability seems to be the main reason for those guys to take the 'risk'. BTW I will broadcasting AS. Sustane 10-1-4 is basically 50% AS and 50% turkey litter


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## Green

@Babameca, I agree broadly. But I'm not sure about the golf superintendents being the primary ones doing late apps...at least not for long, as the evidence clearly shows it's not the best idea on sand due to almost 100% leaching and no Spring benefit whatsoever.

In my case, I have been able to consistently go without any Nitrogen until June. I consider that successful, and attribute it to the specific urea/AMS/methylene urea/iron blend that I use for my late-season app...something I stumbled upon accidentally. I'll even venture so far as say that the results with this blend seem superior to that from standard 46-0-0 urea. I like not having to fertilize and push top growth in early Spring. For me, that's the main reward of continuing Fall apps as long as possible, stopping for a month or so to let things wind down, and then doing a final app. The synergy from all of this just seems really powerful, with the Spring results. I can of course add small amounts of Spring N in lagging areas, if desired. I played with that this year, in fact.

That all said, some of the questions I think we all want to see more evidence for are:

-Are the lower N amounts truly almost as good for late apps as the higher ones?
--I have some evidence to this already, and so do the studies. I'll continue following them and doing my own testing.

-Do the lower N amounts reduce the snowmold incidence/severity in years when the turf is prone to it (versus the higher amounts)? We all know N is a pro-snowmold factor.

As far as Winter kill in March after green-up begins, I've never had an issue with it with my KBG/Fescues. I have had Winter kill (not sure when in the Winter, exactly) with Perennial Ryegrass, but that's ok...I treat it as an expendable in my mixtures. Even there, the Winter kill in a single year tends to be fairly minor; there are still lawns around here with decent amounts of PR in them after many years. I would think that if anything, the early AMS app that you do (or my late-season methylene urea app, which achieves similar) would probably impact this moreso than the late-season urea/AMS, if anything. That's fine. I'll continue taking the risk, as well, like you.


----------



## Babameca

@Green I am way newer than you to all this, just putting some pieces together from here and there, trying those sources to be credible. I wish I knew the perfect formula for my specific needs the way you do, but I don't.
Thanks for sharing all you know.
B


----------



## Green

Babameca said:


> @Green I am way newer than you to all this, just putting some pieces together from here and there, trying those sources to be credible. I wish I knew the perfect formula for my specific needs the way you do, but I don't.
> Thanks for sharing all you know.
> B


I think you're figuring it out faster than me. Keep reading those articles. Also, everyone's weather is a bit different. Montreal and CT have a lot in common most likely, but probably also a lot of difference. Keep trying and modifying your program, and discussing the whats and whys. These are some interesting topics. My program is a continual work in progress.

Btw, I like Sustane a lot, but can no longer find it affordably (price kept going up at SiteOne until it was like $80 per bag), so I switched to something else similar. Used to use the 8-2-4, 5-2-4, and 4-6-4. The 5-2-4 was my favorite. I don't think the 10-1-4 was around then, a few years ago. Or maybe it was.


----------



## g-man

Green said:


> Even in the very late apps in the graph (what we'd consider a final winterizing app) a much larger percentage of the applied N is uptaken when smaller amounts are used.


Can you point to the timestamp of this graph?


----------



## DIYDad

I've done 1.5 lbs N in the past 6 weeks as part of the fall N blitz here in 5B on my newly seeded KBG. We are forecasting snow next week. Current temps for the next 5 days are low 50's/upper 40's daytime and low 30's at night. Just checked my soil temp at 57 degrees. Is it too late now to put down another round of nitrogen before the temps start falling sharply next week? Looks like my window is closing fast if I want to do anything. I really want to give this baby grass a jump start in the spring.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even in the very late apps in the graph (what we'd consider a final winterizing app) a much larger percentage of the applied N is uptaken when smaller amounts are used.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you point to the timestamp of this graph?
Click to expand...

@g-man: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12123&p=222816&hilit=uptaken#p222816
28:00


----------



## g-man

Oh I see. If you apply 0.5lb N/M in Nov (December for me), you get around 0.3lb of N/M. But be sure not to extrapolate that 0.3lb of N/M in December are going to make a significant difference in spring. The spring data he showed in minute 32 is with a higher dose of N.

One thing to keep in mind, the studies he published is on a single application in Sept or a single in Oct or a single in Nov. That's was done just to study the effect, but we dont normally do that. We apply in Aug, Sept, Oct and into November. We gain the cumulative effect. But in short, focus on that August/Sept application for more bang for your buck and do a light application in spring if you want more color in spring.

Of course this year was a bust with the hot temps and lack of rain.


----------



## Ryan1+2

I have read if your grass is still growing you can continue nitrogen apps. I have also read that if your soil temps are favorable it is okay. What would be a good soil temp to stop N apps? Also what depth should that soil temp be taken?


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Oh I see. If you apply 0.5lb N/M in Nov (December for me), you get around 0.3lb of N/M. But be sure not to extrapolate that 0.3lb of N/M in December are going to make a significant difference in spring. The spring data he showed in minute 32 is with a higher dose of N.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind, the studies he published is on a single application in Sept or a single in Oct or a single in Nov. That's was done just to study the effect, but we dont normally do that. We apply in Aug, Sept, Oct and into November. We gain the cumulative effect. But in short, focus on that August/Sept application for more bang for your buck and do a light application in spring if you want more color in spring.
> 
> Of course this year was a bust with the hot temps and lack of rain.


Exactly. The lower rates have higher proportions of utilization than the higher ones--less loss to leaching.

Lawn care companies and the average person both might only do one major September application, and possibly an additional winterizing app. My eventual goal is to consolidate everything into one to two apps for Fall. That is why you saw me experiment with a 1.5 lbs app this past September.

As far as the 0.333 lbs app in late Nov. Or early Dec., I won't really know until I try it alongside test plots of 0.50, 1.0, and possibly none (though I really consider the 1.0 the default/control, as that is what I used to use a few years ago).

The 0.50 lb N rate (with ~0.33 uptaken) worked very well last year, and his recommendations were to use no more than that due to leaching. Do you remember what N rates the Spring photos he showed were from?

It may well be that there could be a loss of the effect below 0.50 or 0.333. We'll see. I plant to test it.

I wonder if the recommendations for winterizing will eventually move to multiple apps at lower rates after growth stops. But those could be really tough to time in our climate (Midwest/Northeast). Just thinking out loud here.


----------



## Green

Ryan1+2 said:


> I have read if your grass is still growing you can continue nitrogen apps. I have also read that if your soil temps are favorable it is okay. What would be a good soil temp to stop N apps? Also what depth should that soil temp be taken?


Most experts seem to agree that some sort of a slowdown period is beneficial during the last month or so of growth before Winter. It probably wouldn't be a good idea to keep applying granular apps through this period since the grass may not harden off as well. Whether or not to apply one after that is your decision, based on the research and your personal needs as far as results.


----------



## palum19

Getting a nice rain this Sunday in the CT/RI areas. Yes or no to one last urea drop (Thinking under.5 lbs/k)before the final winterizer one? 10 day temperatures look frost free.


----------



## Harts

palum19 said:


> Getting a nice rain this Sunday in the CT/RI areas. Yes or no to one last urea drop (Thinking under.5 lbs/k)before the final winterizer one? 10 day temperatures look frost free.


In my opinion, it isn't going to have a significant impact one way or the other. Nobody will be able to definitively tell you doing an app this weekend is going to have "x" impact on your lawn. Do it if you want. Don't do it if you don't want to.

How's that for a clear answer!


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## Babameca

@g-man @Harts @Green @Stuofsci02 Just a unconventional (probably idea) what if we prove or disprove studies (mainly performed on golf greens, it is all business right?) and do our own test plots and report results back here. It is obviously late this year, but having different climates with a similar regiment experiment may be very useful for the forum members and for us . I wish I could include more forum members into this proposal but my memory runs pretty short tonight... (looong working day and another 4h driving back home for the weekend). I apologize, it is a very rough proposal, but I am sure you are able to see throu…
Having more time and excitement next season, we can work on agreeing what and how should be done, find similar products both side of the border and...go for it. I may be dreaming here, but hey, it's free to ask out on a date .
B


----------



## g-man

@Babameca sounds good. Start a thread with your ideas to experiment. I'm likely not going to experiment anymore. The current approach works really good for me.


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## Green

@Babameca, I say do whatever experiments you want. I already mentioned the one that I would like to do. They can only help.


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## Harts

@Babameca thanks for thinking of me. I'm not the experimental type. I've got a pretty good idea of what works for me and Im going to stick with it.


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## PNW_George

I tried something different this year. Fine Fescue doesn't require as much irrigation as many types of grass nor much fertilizer. I also have some Colonial Bentgrass. There isn't a treatment that controls poa for the mix and even with a pure FF blend, nothing that I have found to work. I haven't used any weed control of any kind for years. So I only fertilized twice all year.I may drop a late organic fertilizer but am pleased I didn't get the typical fall poa bloom I usually get. The lawn still looks good. This isn't a recommendation for most and unique to my lawn and area but a trial I wanted to try and the results are promising.


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## npompei

Hey guys, so I put down some urea based on some recommendations here. I believe I had some uneven starter fertilizer (seed went down mid Sept.)from the broadcast spreader I was using (pics below)

How fast/soon should I notice the nitrogen in the yard? I put it down a week ago. We've had some great rain the past week so it def got mixed in ha. But still not seeing any recovery in those 'sparse' areas

And curious if I could put more down within the next week or so? Possible frost this coming weekend here outside of Philly.


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## Stuofsci02

@npompei I would think you would have seen some change by now, but definitely over the next weeks. Have you mowed this grass yet? It looks quite long in the photos.


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## g-man

@npompei how much did you apply per ksqft? when did you water it in? Do you have a soil test?

By the way, the lawn needs a mowing. Keep it at 2in for now.


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## npompei

Hey @Stuofsci02 @g-man

Yes I've mowed 3x now. Those pictures were from about 2 weeks ago. With the on-off again rain we've had here the past 3 weeks I'm having a hard time keeping it below 2.75". I don't want to get my heavy walk behind onto it, its been too wet to even walk on. The higher spots keep growing up over 4" so I don't want to take off too much. I'm hoping by the end of the week I can get it cut down to 2.5" and then a bit lower before winter. I don't mind the rain though since it's helping the re-seeded areas grow ha.

I put down about .25lb/sqft as recommended by you guys. I have roughly 30k sq ft and put down 15lbs. When putting down 15lbs over my lawn I felt like barely anything came out ha. I did make a vertical then a 45deg pass just to make sure I was hopefully covering any problems like before.

Do you think I should put more down?


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## g-man

You can do 0.25lb/ksqft weekly. But the season is coming to an end soon. You might have an app or two left.


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## npompei

g-man said:


> You can do 0.25lb/ksqft weekly. But the season is coming to an end soon. You might have an app or two left.


Ah good to know! Wasn't sure on new grass if I could feed it weekly. I'll get some down Wed morning as we have another big round of rain Thurs.

Then we get low 30's for temps this weekend. Do we stop putting down N once frost hits?


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## Rswarren14

@npompei I think the rule of thumb is you stop putting down N once you stop seeing clipping from your mowings. So say you mow today and it's been about a week or so after your last mow and no clippings, then you throw down a "winterizer" app of N and you end your season... That is my understanding and probably not scientific at all. I try to keep things as simple as possible.


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## npompei

makes sense, thanks @Rswarren14 !


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## Rswarren14

@npompei No problem. @g-man might have a better answer for you.


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## g-man

@npompei The typical time frame to stop doing any more nitrogen is when the historical average first frost. It is not around the actual 2019 first frost. Nitrogen when the temps get cold is mostly wasted, even the traditional "winterizer app".


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## Stuofsci02

npompei said:


> Hey @Stuofsci02 @g-man
> 
> Yes I've mowed 3x now. Those pictures were from about 2 weeks ago. With the on-off again rain we've had here the past 3 weeks I'm having a hard time keeping it below 2.75". I don't want to get my heavy walk behind onto it, its been too wet to even walk on. The higher spots keep growing up over 4" so I don't want to take off too much. I'm hoping by the end of the week I can get it cut down to 2.5" and then a bit lower before winter. I don't mind the rain though since it's helping the re-seeded areas grow ha.
> 
> I put down about .25lb/sqft as recommended by you guys. I have roughly 30k sq ft and put down 15lbs. When putting down 15lbs over my lawn I felt like barely anything came out ha. I did make a vertical then a 45deg pass just to make sure I was hopefully covering any problems like before.
> 
> Do you think I should put more down?


Do you have any more pics from now? I think you could do at least one more app at the same rate. Maybe two. It is more dependent on soil temps than air temps. It looks like you guys have still be reasonably warm (high 60s low 70s).


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## npompei

Sorry it took a while to get back @Stuofsci02 . Rushing to get some down today - rain tomorrow night and I'm gone all day so had to do it now! Here's the pics from today. I last was able to mow I think it was last Thurs. It's been raining hard here every few days which is good to keep the grass growing but hard to stay on the mowing height! And even more rain coming late tomorrow into thurs. So I won't be able to get on it again until maybe Sunday. Temps drop a lot though after this front moves through. Highs only in the 50's, low 30's as well.

I want to say it's greened up a little in those thin spots but it could be in my head. This picture makes it look slightly worse than it is, though it's pretty bad. Gonna bother me all winter


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## Doug E Dee

npompei, The light areas look nitrogen deficient, based on the dark stripes in between which is probably where your passes overlapped.


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## Stuofsci02

Doug E Dee said:


> npompei, The light areas look nitrogen deficient, based on the dark stripes in between which is probably where your passes overlapped.


@npompei ... I agree with @Doug E Dee above. New grass takes a lot of N to establish and this looks like the fertilzer passes we too spread apart and you dont have enough N in between. Don't feel too bad.. My brother did this last year, and unfortunately it did look like that for more most of the winter. Just think of it as striping without a striper... You may still be able to get this to green up a bit with another app, just be sure to get it down even. Cheers


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## npompei

Thanks @Doug E Dee @Stuofsci02 kinda sucks haha. But, I got my 2nd app down on Tues and had hard rain the past 2 days and it already looks better. Pictures may not look better but it does look a tad better in person. Hopefully that keeps up.



Hopefully I can get one final one down next week and it may look a tad better during winter. Just got my soil test back so I'm going to figure out all that stuff over winter


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## ThickAndGreen

It will all get lighter once the the cold weather hits so it probably won't be very noticeable during he winter.


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## tgreen

@g-man, you turned me on to the ohio state youtube blogs, which have been excellent. In the latest video below starting at 2:00 and ending at 2:50, the guy argues the most important N app is November (in ohio). Even more specifically, he says you want to hit it right after the grass has stopped growing (but presumably before the ground freezes). This makes some good sense but I've never tried to time it that closely. I always do an end of season app but not necessarily immediately after the last mow. Curious if this is what you do as standard practice. I hadn't heard anyone claim that is THE most important app.


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## Green

@tgreen, I've been doing it exactly that way for a bunch of years, and used to hear it was the most important app. But lately, I've heard that September/October (depending on where you are) is the most important one...right before ET decreases substantially.

A lot of the later-season N gets leached, based on experiments. But some of it makes it into the plants. There is probably a sweet spot in terms of N rate, which is what I've been playing with the past few years. 0.5 lb seems to work almost as well or as well as 1.0 lb, as has less percentage leaching based on publications. I'd like to do extensive testing of various rates this year to see for sure how a range of rates compares.

Last year, my overseed got fertilizer at seeding time, and then the final app after growth stopped, and that was it until after green-up in the Spring, and it seemed to do well.

I won't speak for @g-man, and I'm sure he'll reply next. But I know he stopped doing the final "November" app (it's more like December for us, and can be as early as October or as late as January in some areas).

I myself am playing around decreasing the rate the past few years, based on Soldat's lectures. Will listen to the one you posted, too.

My neighbor had never winterized until last year, and then he did, and the results the following Spring were off the chart compared to the norm. And I thought he was a week or so late with it, but it worked out well.


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## SNOWBOB11

That's interesting as it seems more recently the winterizer app is a bit outdated by some other things I've seen and read. This year I plan on skipping the final nitrogen app when growth stops. I have always done a winterizer app before this year. My last app of nitrogen was on October 10th which is also my average first frost date. I started spoon feeding about 2 months before this. I'm interested to see if I see any difference in spring green up with no winterizer.


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## Green

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I'm interested to see if I see any difference in spring green up with no winterizer.


I see two groups of people. One that relies on the winterizer app for just green-up, but then applies N in early Spring, but a second group that uses it to carry them through the entire first month (or more) of Spring after green-up without applying anything. I'm in the second one, which is why I'd hate to have to discontinue it outright. I don't know how my grass would do without it, having no N until late May or early June. I do this to try to prevent too much top growth during the Spring flush, and to feed the grass instead of the new weeds that are trying to germinate in early Spring and compete.


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## SNOWBOB11

Green said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested to see if I see any difference in spring green up with no winterizer.
> 
> 
> 
> I see two groups of people. One that relies on the winterizer app for just green-up, but then applies N in early Spring, but a second group that uses it to carry them through the entire first month (or more) of Spring after green-up without applying anything. I'm in the second one, which is why I'd hate to have to discontinue it outright. I don't know how my grass would do without it, having no N until late May or early June. I do this to try to prevent too much top growth during the Spring flush, and to feed the grass instead of the new weeds that are trying to germinate in early Spring and compete.
Click to expand...

That's fair. I think I'm going to have to add a bit of early season N to try and fill in some thin areas from removing triv. I don't know if you have to add a winterizer to be able to make it to the end of may without feeding. With spoon feeding for 8 weeks from late summing to avg first frost I think that might be enough nitrogen for the soil to last through the early spring. Definitely whatever works for someone they should continue to use it. I'm still experimenting so we will see what effect no winterizer has for my lawn next spring.


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## tgreen

There are so many variables that it's difficult to know whether an N app at this time or that time really matters.

This year, I went with my typical milo app in late august but then on gman's recommend went urea on the october app instead of what I did historically which was another milo. I had a great color pickup vs previous years and will do that again next year.

Last year, I did uflexx (slow release) as final app in mid-november. Lawn greened-up great in the spring. I'm going to go 0.5lb AMS for the last app this year, mainly b/c that's what I have on hand and PH is a touch high at 7.0. I don't know how I'll judge the fast vs slow last app though and which is better.

Honestly, I don't know how much it matters ultimately. I would not have been interested in this conversation last year but the october urea app changed my mind. Now wondering if the timing and type of last app is really that critical.


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## Green

@tgreen, as far timing as a variable, interesting idea that it might not matter so much. My only concern is that applying N while growth is in the process of still slowing might interfere with the hardening off process. That's why we have a break at or shortly after average first frost. Supposedly, very low rate foliar apps used carefully/conservatively don't interfere so much, but you'd think larger apps might be able to.

@SNOWBOB11, I would bet that spoonfeeding or properly used slow release in Fall (which is basically a similar idea) might indeed produce a carryover and therefore a winterization effect. That said, not everyone is doing spoonfeeding.

This makes me think a bit more about my ultimate goal...

Ideally, yes, I would eventually be able get rid of the final app entirely, if and only if I could produce the same effect and results through earlier Fall apps.

But at the same time, there is another thing I'd be able to omit someday, and that is Fall spoonfeeding or blitz.

I know that's a tall order, and you guys are probably going to think I'm nuts, but that's the eventual goal for me. I've already started experimenting with a single app for Fall, but it's going to take a lot more refining before it can compete.

But I'm not going to give up the winterizer or the blitz entirely (or both!) until I have something to replace it with and produce the same or better effects.

I do think I'm on the right track, though. We will see. It's going to take years of further tweaks to get there.


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## g-man

@tgreen it is a great program. I wish they make it a podcast since it would be a lot easier for me to listen to it during my commute.

I have to disagree on his advice. The studies from Doug Soldat clearly show that the nitrogen application after top growth stops is barely absorbed by the plant. They used a special nitrogen with a tracer to track how much enter the plant.

If I could summarize the latest research it would be, feed it when it can use it and when it is storing carbs (eg. September). The late November, December application seems to me to be a complication that it is not worth the benefit.


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## Green

g-man said:


> The studies from Doug Soldat clearly show that the nitrogen application after top growth stops is barely absorbed by the plant. They used a special nitrogen with a tracer to track how much enter the plant.


Depends how you define "barely absorbed", though...

And from last week when you and I started discussing it:



g-man said:


> If you apply 0.5lb N/M in Nov (December for me), you get around 0.3lb of N/M.


Correct. The 0.5 lb app had more than half utilized unlike larger apps. That's not terrible. The question I'm trying to answer is, whether for my soil (which is pretty darn good these days, finally, I might add), that utilized 0.3 lb component is more than sufficient, sufficient, or insufficient. I think I've ruled out insufficient so far based on this past year's response...

Bringing these back for tgreen's benefit.


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## tgreen

OK guys, thanks for the info. I'm going to run the AMS if for no other reason that I don't want to look at it in the garage all winter.


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## osuturfman

Green said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The studies from Doug Soldat clearly show that the nitrogen application after top growth stops is barely absorbed by the plant. They used a special nitrogen with a tracer to track how much enter the plant.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends how you define "barely absorbed", though...
> 
> And from last week when you and I started discussing it:
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> If you apply 0.5lb N/M in Nov (December for me), you get around 0.3lb of N/M.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Correct. The 0.5 lb app had more than half utilized unlike larger apps. That's not terrible. The question I'm trying to answer is, whether for my soil (which is pretty darn good these days, finally, I might add), that utilized 0.3 lb component is more than sufficient, sufficient, or insufficient. I think I've ruled out insufficient so far based on this past year's response...
> 
> Bringing these back for tgreen's benefit.
Click to expand...

"Barely absorbed" as in less than 15% of the applied N was taken into the plant with the latest applications.


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## Pete1313

I dont have much different to add to the conversation, but that I really enjoy listening to and following the work from top university minds such as Soldat as well as others. I haven't done the traditional winterizer app in years with good results. One thing I wanted to share and might be a reason why people see a response from the traditional winterizer app is it is not all leached and lost in a silt loam/higher CEC soil unlike a sand based soil.
Frankly Speaking with Doug Soldat: Smart Fertilization for Smart Turf Managers
The whole podcast is good, but If you tune in at the 12:00 minute mark you will hear them talk about it. At the 12:50 mark he mentioned more was recovered the next year in a silt loam push up green. A soil with a higher CEC/organic matter has the potential for more N to stick around and mineralized/turned into organic matter.

What I speculate from people that observe a good response the next spring from the traditional winterizer app is that the plant didnt take it in that fall, but (especially in a higher CEC soil) that it just stuck around and was then absorbed at some point the next spring.

For me, with that thinking, why would I then apply in the late fall and either risk leaching or just have it hang around when I can do a low spring N app with similar results. Or better yet start up spoon feeding foliar N apps in spring?


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## osuturfman

Pete1313 said:


> I dont have much different to add to the conversation, but that I really enjoy listening to and following the work from top university minds such as Soldat as well as others. I haven't done the traditional winterizer app in years with good results. One thing I wanted to share and might be a reason why people see a response from the traditional winterizer app is it is not all leached and lost in a silt loam/higher CEC soil unlike a sand based soil.
> Frankly Speaking with Doug Soldat: Smart Fertilization for Smart Turf Managers
> The whole podcast is good, but If you tune in at the 12:00 minute mark you will hear them talk about it. At the 12:50 mark he mentioned more was recovered the next year in a silt loam push up green. A soil with a higher CEC/organic matter has the potential for more N to stick around and mineralized/turned into organic matter.
> 
> What I speculate from people that observe a good response the next spring from the traditional winterizer app is that the plant didnt take it in that fall, but (especially in a higher CEC soil) that it just stuck around and was then absorbed at some point the next spring.
> 
> For me, with that thinking, why would I then apply in the late fall and either risk leaching or just have it hang around when I can do a low spring N app with similar results. Or better yet start up spoon feeding foliar N apps in spring?


An excellent resource for sure. @Pete1313 is correct that a more precise approach is backing off sooner in the fall and starting small apps earlier than most typically would begin.

One thing is lost in translation on the higher CEC soils "holding" N longer has more to do with soil texture than anything. Higher CEC soils (see heavier) won't drain/leach as readily as lower CEC soils (see coarser).


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## Green

@osuturfman 
@Pete1313

Hopefully they will be able to do an experiment to determine that. It's most likely a combination of several effects.

But if that is what is happening, it would explain why my late app's Spring response with a Urea/AMS/methylene urea blend seems if anything superior to regular urea. I want to test them head-to-head this year, but I haven't used regular urea in a few years, because the blend seems to yield superior results, and the key ingredient is obviously the methylene urea. But the old fashioned people would probably tell me not to use slow release N. I don't care what they say. If they want to use a full 1.5 lbs and have most of it leach, let them. They won't be easily convinced that reduction or even elimination is the way to go. It'll take many more experiments.

I still have a small amount of regular urea left to experiment with versus the methylene urea blend, and can do several rates, as well as no app on different plots, for a controlled experiment.

Eventually, my goal is to replace Fall spoon-feeding and the final app with methylene urea/ureaform, which carries over to early Spring.

@osuturfman, if You apply like 0.15 lb N in late Fall from methylene urea, or you do a small early Spring urea app (around green-up time plus or minus), you aren't going to jeopardize root growth for shoot growth in early Spring, right?


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## Green

You guys know what would be an interesting study or personal experiment (anyone want to do it?)?

Three test plots. All get fertilized in early Fall at 1.5 lb N rate with 50/50 fast/slow release N.

Then manipulate the groups as follows:
-Plot 1: No further Nitrogen until late Spring app (Memorial Day or later)
-Plot 2: Do only a single 0.75 lb N app right before the pause period starts*, and then nothing further until late Spring app (Memorial Day or later)
-Plot 3: Do only a traditional 1.0 lb winterizing app after growth stops

-Using a urea/AMS/methylene urea blend for plots 2 and 3.

I'd love to see how results from Plots 2 and 3 would compare to each other and Plot 1 (the control).

@Babameca 
@g-man

Unfortunately, I can't do this particular experiment this year.

*The traditional advice has been not to dump a lot of N right before the pause starts, but I'm skeptical of that. What if such an app could effectively Winterize the turf and store it with more efficiency than the traditional super late timing does? The growth is already slowing at this time due to less ET, so it's doubtful that applying fertilizer would send it into hyperdrive top growth mode...that's just not what we observe this time of year. We really should try this out!


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## g-man

@Green I'm out. I like a simple controlled approach of applying around 0.2lb of fast N/M per week if the conditions are good. I like to stop applying nitrogen around 4-5 weeks prior to top growth stopping to get a more robust leaf structure going into winter. In spring if it looks like it needs nitrogen, I give it some.


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## jayteebee

Due to the high temps here in Middle Tennessee, I waited until 10/5 to seed. I put Xstart down and tenacity on seed day. Last Monday I blew the leaves off, put a nice amount of fert down and hand seeded in bare spots before we got perfect rain for 2 days. Haven't mowed yet due to being afraid of hurting my new germination.

It's as high as 4" in some spots, while other spots have been slower to grow. Good or bad idea to mow?


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## g-man

Mow


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## jayteebee

Glad I did. Wow 😍
Back yard almost done now to the front!


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## Mattsbay_18

I have 1/2 a bag of Urea left. Temps are getting cold here in Wisconsin but the ground temps are still above freezing. Is it too late in the game to throw down the remaining Urea?


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## Green

Mattsbay_18 said:


> I have 1/2 a bag of Urea left. Temps are getting cold here in Wisconsin but the ground temps are still above freezing. Is it too late in the game to throw down the remaining Urea?


If you want to use it, do so after your final mow but before the ground freezes. You don't want to do it before that as far as we know based on current knowledge. There should be a period of no fertilizer from roughly average first frost until growth stops. It's all detailed in g-man's article.


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## g-man

I would just save it for next year.


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## g-man

It looks like we bypass fall and are going straight to winter.


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## Wolverine

g-man said:


> It looks like we bypass fall and are going straight to winter.


Late spring and an early winter makes for a short growing season


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## fusebox7

Wolverine said:


> Late spring and an early winter makes for a short growing season


And super wet spring and super wet fall... oye. Read we'll have highs in the 20s here in Michigan in the next week or two. That's too cold too fast!


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## Mattsbay_18

g-man said:


> I would just save it for next year.


Thanks. Until next year.


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## npompei

Just want to say thanks a ton for the info guys! The last round of Urea helped a ton with my thin spots and stripes! Barely noticeable now (plus I went with a 45deg cut to hide them more :mrgreen: )I may try to get one more down. We've had a few frost nights but the grass has still been growing. Need to get maybe one last cut down to winter height and keep my fingers crossed over winter. Thanks again,


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## Doug E Dee

@npompei Looks much better now! One tip I can offer is when you apply fert, cut your rate in half and go over the yard two times, 2nd pass perpendicular to the 1st.


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## npompei

Doug E Dee said:


> @npompei Looks much better now! One tip I can offer is when you apply fert, cut your rate in half and go over the yard two times, 2nd pass perpendicular to the 1st.


Thanks Doug! Been a lot of work. And yes, after this debacle I learned to go over everything 2x ha. I did that with the slit seeder so I should have known better ha. But yes, I appreciate the tip!


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