# What is killing my new seedlings (4th Millennium Tall Fescue)?



## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Hi all,

I overseeded about 3 weeks ago and things have been looking great. I put down DiseaseEX at the curative rate about a week before the overseed, and there were a few areas that were really thin so I dethatched/raked to bare dirt, and re-seeded with 4th Millennium TTTF from United Seeds. I had great germination (~4 days) and things were looking good. I've kept up on the watering, a few areas were kind of thin with germination, so about a week ago I put a bit more seed down/have been watering those lightly.

Now, however, a lot of my new seedlings seem to be "fading" and then dying off into thin/wispy strands, creating a thatch layer..

Pics:











I feel like I probably still have time to fix this if I can figure out what is going on.. so today I put down more DiseaseEX (granular - curative rate) and put down some Scott's Starter Fert for new seedlings, since I hadn't fertilized since spring. Does this look like it could be some kind of fungus? Grubs?

What should my next steps be? It's really frustrating to feel like I'm doing everything I should be, have it looking great, and then just have so much dying off..


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Def looks like fungus. There are lesions on some of the blades of grass.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Ugh. Should I put something down aside from the DiseaseEX granular? I have Clearys 3336F, Heritage SC Fungicide, and Propiconazole.. any suggestions for which would be best on new seedlings?

Seems like I probably won't be able to save most of that area even if I spray something, would it be better to just rake it all up and put new seeds down and start over?


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## LawnOCDfanatic (5 mo ago)

What time is your last watering of the day and for how long?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

LawnOCDfanatic said:


> What time is your last watering of the day and for how long?


Typically I stop around ~4-5pm (Zone 7b), I don't have a sprinkler system so I'm watering by hand with the hose, typically takes me about 20 mins per 1k sqft because of the shape of my lawn isn't all right together. A couple nights I did spray a bit later due to not getting home from work and wanting some moisture on the yards, we haven't had any rain here in 2 weeks and it's been sunny with lows in the high 50's / low 60's


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I think I see grey leaf spot. 3336 is what I use for that.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

It's a type of leaf spot. It doesn't matter which one, because this time around, you will apply two MOA that will cover all your bases. You will need to reseed, but that's not a big deal if you are in a warm part of NC, where you would have adequate time remaining in the season for a re-do.

As mentioned above, tmethyl is your best residential option if it is GLS. However, it is not that great for "regular" leaf spot. In that case, your best residential option would be azoxy.

Apply azoxy and tmethyl when/if you go for a redo.

Timing of fungicide app is somewhat crucial in this scenario.

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/diseases-in-turf/gray-leaf-spot-in-turf/

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/diseases-in-turf/gray-leaf-spot-in-turf/


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

I definitely think you're right about GLS or some sort of leaf spot.. Looking closer, all of the more mature fescue still there seems to have lesions of some sort. I don't have tmethyl at home, but I do have Propicanizole (sprayed yesterday at curative rate), and I also have Clearys 3336f which says it treats GLS.. is there a good reason to do tmethyl over both of those? I only see one for sale on DoMyOwn for like $220 and wanted to get something on the lawn now. Looks like I can put Clearys 3336f/Propicanizole down whenever after seeding?

I went ahead and overseeded again (~2.5lbs) and also decided to use some sort of straw cover this time instead of more peat moss.. was concerned about the lawn pH with such a thick layer of that everywhere since I've used it several seasons in a row. Hoping the tackiness of the straw will help with the hurricane Ian rain heading up this weekend and we don't have a total washout.

So frustrating, we've had 3 weeks of basically perfect weather (sunny, 75-85 highs, 55-65 evenings), so I guess I was watering incorrectly?


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

The active ingredient in your Clearys is Thiophanate-methyl (tmethyl).


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Fraust said:


> The active ingredient in your Clearys is Thiophanate-methyl (tmethyl).


Oh, whoops! Now I feel dumb. Should have looked at the active ingredient!

Is there a specific timing that would be best for putting that on since I put Propicanizole on yesterday?


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## Tonyvu83 (5 mo ago)

@uncken I did a reno and it's been 21 DAG and I got a lot of thin/dead spots. Does it look like it to you that my issue looks similar to yours? If so, what are your plans to fix this as I am pretty much in the same area as you?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Tonyvu83 said:


> @uncken I did a reno and it's been 21 DAG and I got a lot of thin/dead spots. Does it look like it to you that my issue looks similar to yours? If so, what are your plans to fix this as I am pretty much in the same area as you?


Yep.. that's how mine started looking before it all went down hill and basically had 100% die off of all the new seedlings 

If I were you, I'd get a fungicide down ASAP... Propicanizole or Clearys 3336f, something in liquid form to sit on the blades for at least a few hours before you water in.

The steps I've taken:

- Raked as much of the dead grass out as I could, getting down to soil (tho honestly seeing more peat moss than soil...)
- Mowed everything down to 1.75"
- Put down Scott's Starter Fert for Seeding just to give things a boost
- Put down 12 lbs of lime per 1k sq ft (since peat moss is super acidic and now I've had 2 seasons using quite a lot of it)
- Put down DiseaseEX granular at the curative rate
- Put down additional seed (~2.5lbs for maybe 700 sq ft.. trying to eyeball the amount since I don't know what grass will survive)
- Sprayed Propicanizole at the curative rate (2oz/1k sq ft)
- Using straw as seed cover instead of more peat moss (especially as the Hurricane Ian rains are incoming this weekend)
- Planning to put down Clearys 3336f later this week once I get more info on timing after DiseaseEx/Propi applications

Hopefully someone will tell me if any of that sounds bad/if I'm missing anything.

I've always wondered if the seed will germinate fine on top of peat moss instead of actual soil, but I guess we'll find out?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

That looks like gray leaf spot. I've dealt with it first hand. Couple observations from my experience:

1) t-methyl and azoxystrobin did not work for me
2) the disease only stopped after a frost
3) new seedlings germinated but succumbed after a couple weeks
4) seeding into active GLS did not work

It's not labeled for home use but I would try chlorothalonil if you're willing to go off label. Even better try Enclave (which is a 4 way with t-methyl and chlorothalonil).

Try seeding KBG and TF. KBG is unaffected and the TF will do fine if you can time it to germinate within a week of a killing frost.

Here's some pics from my experience with it. One is overall and second is seedlings succumbing after about 2 weeks.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Tonyvu83 said:


> @uncken I did a reno and it's been 21 DAG and I got a lot of thin/dead spots. Does it look like it to you that my issue looks similar to yours? If so, what are your plans to fix this as I am pretty much in the same area as you?


That doesn't look like gray leaf spot. It's possibly damping off/pythium on the seedlings. Almost looks like it happened a few days ago. Are you seeing mycelium in the morning? Is it getting worse? If it's gray leaf spot, it should wipe your entire stand in about 24 to 48 hours.


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## Tonyvu83 (5 mo ago)

That was taken 4 days ago. And it looks much the same. Today I put granual propi/azoxy combo (headway g) to hopefully stop the fungus if that's the issue I'm having. Raked up the dead grass. Tomorrow
Gonna add more seed and roll in. Unless you think it's not worth it. Please let me know.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Tonyvu83 said:


> That was taken 4 days ago. And it looks much the same. Today I put granual propi/azoxy combo (headway g) to hopefully stop the fungus if that's the issue I'm having. Raked up the dead grass. Tomorrow
> Gonna add more seed and roll in. Unless you think it's not worth it. Please let me know.


Yes, I would seed that.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

tgreen said:


> That looks like gray leaf spot. I've dealt with it first hand. Couple observations from my experience:
> 
> 1) t-methyl and azoxystrobin did not work for me
> 2) the disease only stopped after a frost
> ...


After looking at basically all the blades on what's left of the lawn, I'm definitely seeing GLS pretty much everywhere. Other areas have started fading/having the same issue over the last day, so we'll see if it recovers. I'm hoping the granular Azoxy, curative rate liquid Propi, and today I applied the Clearys 3336f at the high-rate will stop it in its tracks from progressing much further. I'm letting the t-methyl dry on the leaves overnight. 

I couldn't find Enclave for anything less than $400 - but I did manage to get some Chlorothalonil ordered from DoMyOwn, hopefully it'll be here next week after Ian comes through Fri/Sat. Since that's a 'blocker' I'm going to apply that next week when I'll hopefully start seeing some germination, and then just be on the ball about rotating through Azoxy (I have Heritage SC for spray), Propi, and T-Methyl/Chloro as often as the labels say I can do it.. hopefully that'll save the yard.

I don't have any *** seed, but I do still have ~6 lbs of 4th Millennium left, so I suppose I can always toss more down in October and hope for the best. The problem though is I've then gotta keep up all the watering, which is just contributing to the problem.. even if I stop at ~3-4pm, I've gotta keep things damp for germination. How soon after germination can I really cut back on watering to once or twice a day?


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## Tonyvu83 (5 mo ago)

@uncken Let me know how your re-do goes and hopefully we both get on the right side of this. I pretty much followed what you're plan except that I do not have any sprayable fungicide and only had headway G in granular form on hand. Good call on the straw as well since Ian is heading right at me. I also decided to water less this time around as well. My first time around I was doing 6-7 minutes 4 times a day. This time around I'm only doing 3 minutes 3 times a day (8am/11am/2pm). You think thats too little water?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

uncken said:


> After looking at basically all the blades on what's left of the lawn, I'm definitely seeing GLS pretty much everywhere. Other areas have started fading/having the same issue over the last day, so we'll see if it recovers. I'm hoping the granular Azoxy, curative rate liquid Propi, and today I applied the Clearys 3336f at the high-rate will stop it in its tracks from progressing much further. I'm letting the t-methyl dry on the leaves overnight.
> 
> I couldn't find Enclave for anything less than $400 - but I did manage to get some Chlorothalonil ordered from DoMyOwn, hopefully it'll be here next week after Ian comes through Fri/Sat. Since that's a 'blocker' I'm going to apply that next week when I'll hopefully start seeing some germination, and then just be on the ball about rotating through Azoxy (I have Heritage SC for spray), Propi, and T-Methyl/Chloro as often as the labels say I can do it.. hopefully that'll save the yard.
> 
> I don't have any *** seed, but I do still have ~6 lbs of 4th Millennium left, so I suppose I can always toss more down in October and hope for the best. The problem though is I've then gotta keep up all the watering, which is just contributing to the problem.. even if I stop at ~3-4pm, I've gotta keep things damp for germination. How soon after germination can I really cut back on watering to once or twice a day?


You are doing about all you can do with the fungicides. I think the chlorothalonil is a good call. It is a contact fungicide, as you said so probably best to wait for the rain to end, as you suggest.

You are right about the catch 22 on the watering. Leaf wetness is responsible for spreading the disease but you have to water the seedlings. It's hard to say exactly how much to water b/c conditions such as temp, humidity, wind all play a role. Generally, I'd cut back to once a day or once every 2 days as soon as you see germination.

Good luck.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

tgreen said:


> You are doing about all you can do with the fungicides. I think the chlorothalonil is a good call. It is a contact fungicide, as you said so probably best to wait for the rain to end, as you suggest.
> 
> You are right about the catch 22 on the watering. Leaf wetness is responsible for spreading the disease but you have to water the seedlings. It's hard to say exactly how much to water b/c conditions such as temp, humidity, wind all play a role. Generally, I'd cut back to once a day or once every 2 days as soon as you see germination.
> 
> Good luck.


One last thing. Once you get a freeze, you should be good. Even if temps rebound into the 80's or something, the GLS should be killed off with a freeze and maybe even just a frost. I would not treat after that.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Tonyvu83 said:


> @uncken Let me know how your re-do goes and hopefully we both get on the right side of this. I pretty much followed what you're plan except that I do not have any sprayable fungicide and only had headway G in granular form on hand. Good call on the straw as well since Ian is heading right at me. I also decided to water less this time around as well. My first time around I was doing 6-7 minutes 4 times a day. This time around I'm only doing 3 minutes 3 times a day (8am/11am/2pm). You think thats too little water?


For what it's worth and I'm only trying to be helpful but I think your situation is likely much different from the guy with GLS. I think you may have just had some damping off which is not that uncommon. Hard to know for sure, of course. If you really wanted to protect against damping off/ pythium, you would want to use a chemical called mefenoxam. However, assuming it's not excessively hot and humid right now, I would just reseed the thin parts and save your fungicide for next year.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

SMH. You should not be recommending Chlorothalonil for a rookie homeowner. It is not labeled for residential use and it is considered a carcinogen, toxic to humans and animals. It needs to be applied with a proper respirator and full protective clothing.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

learningeveryday said:


> SMH. You should not be recommending Chlorothalonil for a rookie homeowner. It is not labeled for residential use and it is considered a carcinogen, toxic to humans and animals. It needs to be applied with a proper respirator and full protective clothing.


Thanks Mr. Helper. You're right, I should have recommended spraying daconil on his vegetables and make sure to let the overspray hit the turf. 

Using roundup and driving in an automobile are also dangerous activities.


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## Tonyvu83 (5 mo ago)

tgreen said:


> For what it's worth and I'm only trying to be helpful but I think your situation is likely much different from the guy with GLS. I think you may have just had some damping off which is not that uncommon. Hard to know for sure, of course. If you really wanted to protect against damping off/ pythium, you would want to use a chemical called mefenoxam. However, assuming it's not excessively hot and humid right now, I would just reseed the thin parts and save your fungicide for next year.


Thanks! Are there other options to treat damping off/pythium other than mefenoxam? Its rather expensive and just wondering if there are other options. I have re-seeded those thin areas, just need to cross my fingers that Ian doesnt wash it out. I really didnt want to lay down straw but I'll take chances on weeds to hopefully save the seeds.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

So, just a post-hurricane Ian update: We got about 3.5-4" of rain here, part of the yard is pretty sloped, so who knows how much seed actually survived. Good drainage everywhere, so no standing water issues to rot the seed. Today is day 8 after my last seed-down and I'm basically seeing zero germination on the part of the yard that got hit first with the Gray Leaf Spot. I'm hoping that's due to the massive decrease in soil temps (went from ~70 to 60, the last 4 days have been 61, 62, 61, 60) rather than some issue with the soil.. 

The other issue is - I used straw rather than additional peat moss to help hold things in place with the storm coming (have had plenty of peat moss washed away), but now a lot of that seems 'matted down' in areas where it was moved. Is it worth trying to move that while it's still wet (with a leaf blower or something, not a rake) or should I let it dry out? I'm worried it'll be too thick for any germinated seed to get through with how it looks while it's wet.

Fungicide plan this week: Spraying Azoxy this evening and letting it sit on the blades overnight. DoMyOwn says Chlorothalonil is backordered, so it doesn't look like I'll have it this week. I will re-spray Propi this weekend and then rotate in another application of T-Methyl if I don't end up getting that beforehand. 

Any suggestions/additional advice?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

uncken said:


> Any suggestions/additional advice?


Gray leaf spot doesn't inhibit germination and only attacks the seedlings about 2 weeks or so after germination.

8 days is a little long but if you're seeing no germination at all then I wouldn't worry too much yet. If you see really spotty germination then I'd worry.

Did you spread actual straw or is it a germination blanket with weed free straw? Either way, I'd remove the straw at the first sign of germination.


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## Tonyvu83 (5 mo ago)

@uncken how are things going? Been 10 days since I put down fungicide and 7 days since I put down more seed and haven’t seen much. Wondering if it’s a lost cause or if it’s still early to tell.


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

uncken said:


> So, just a post-hurricane Ian update: We got about 3.5-4" of rain here, part of the yard is pretty sloped, so who knows how much seed actually survived. Good drainage everywhere, so no standing water issues to rot the seed. Today is day 8 after my last seed-down and I'm basically seeing zero germination on the part of the yard that got hit first with the Gray Leaf Spot. I'm hoping that's due to the massive decrease in soil temps (went from ~70 to 60, the last 4 days have been 61, 62, 61, 60) rather than some issue with the soil..
> 
> The other issue is - I used straw rather than additional peat moss to help hold things in place with the storm coming (have had plenty of peat moss washed away), but now a lot of that seems 'matted down' in areas where it was moved. Is it worth trying to move that while it's still wet (with a leaf blower or something, not a rake) or should I let it dry out? I'm worried it'll be too thick for any germinated seed to get through with how it looks while it's wet.
> 
> ...


Try ordering somewhere besides DO MY OWN. They are rated very low on the list of suppliers. They are the last place I look. I just ordered chlorothalonil from Lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com............it was delivered in 1 day. Free overnight delivery. 10% off coupon code (review10) and it was only $75 for 2.5 gallons.


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## FailedLawn (5 mo ago)

learningeveryday said:


> Try ordering somewhere besides DO MY OWN. They are rated very low on the list of suppliers. They are the last place I look. I just ordered chlorothalonil from Lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com............it was delivered in 1 day. Free overnight delivery. 10% off coupon code (review10) and it was only $75 for 2.5 gallons.


I buy a bit from them. Not my favorite vendor, but they have a good/easy to navigate site. They have inflated prices on many things to absorb the “free shipping”. Not always the best deal, but sometimes they’re cheaper. They do sell some products in smaller quantities/off brands that are cheaper than some of my other suppliers. 

My only real complaint is the “smart post” shipping. I’m really hate how slow it is. Things that should take 2-3 days take 5+


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

learningeveryday said:


> SMH. You should not be recommending Chlorothalonil for a rookie homeowner. It is not labeled for residential use and it is considered a carcinogen, toxic to humans and animals. It needs to be applied with a proper respirator and full protective clothing.





learningeveryday said:


> I just ordered chlorothalonil from Lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com.


What?


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

You were recommending to someone for off-label use on a residential lawn. There's a reason it's not listed on the fungicide guide. That's a big no-no.

I have a small farm that I bought 12 years ago for two family members to run. That's where it is used, legally and per label instructions.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

learningeveryday said:


> I have a small farm that I bought 12 years ago for two family members to run. That's where it is used, legally and per label instructions.


Uh huh. Thanks Mr. Pro.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Tonyvu83 said:


> @uncken how are things going? Been 10 days since I put down fungicide and 7 days since I put down more seed and haven’t seen much. Wondering if it’s a lost cause or if it’s still early to tell.


Unfortunately, I haven't seen much 'response' from the grass that's there from my rotation of t-methyl/propi/azoxy yet. I did finally get the chlorothalinol in and put that down last night, so I'm hoping that'll stop further damage. I did a heavy app of Azoxy on Sunday. It doesn't seem to be spreading, but also the grass doesn't really seem recovered. Temps cooled down a ton with the hurricane, so I know we're seeing slower growth and am just hoping there's time for things to happen.

Have you put down any fertilizer? I did Scott's when I initially seeded, but I think I'm going to do a Simple Lawn Solutions High Nitrogen (28-0-0) on there this week/weekend as well.. still hoping temps will raise a bit, we're still 10 degrees cooler than our 5/10 year averages right now.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> You were recommending to someone for off-label use on a residential lawn. There's a reason it's not listed on the fungicide guide. That's a big no-no.
> 
> I have a small farm that I bought 12 years ago for two family members to run. That's where it is used, legally and per label instructions.


It's not labeled for residential use primarily because they never did the studies about whether it was safe for kids to play in the grass or eat dirt treated by it after application, can be an irritant/etc. I have neither of those conditions to worry about, the area is roped off, doesn't touch any other yards, and I'm pretty confident in my spraying technique. I'm also trained in working with hazardous chemicals, so that's not something that concerns me much either.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

tgreen said:


> Gray leaf spot doesn't inhibit germination and only attacks the seedlings about 2 weeks or so after germination.
> 
> 8 days is a little long but if you're seeing no germination at all then I wouldn't worry too much yet. If you see really spotty germination then I'd worry.
> 
> Did you spread actual straw or is it a germination blanket with weed free straw? Either way, I'd remove the straw at the first sign of germination.


I have seen some patchy germination, but there's large areas where I see none at all that were broadcasted/covered with peat moss/kept moist. Some of it has germinated in other areas that weren't impacted by the fungus/dying off, but oddly those are also in the shadier areas surprisingly..

I just spread the straw from a bag, no blankets. 

My questions now are really: 

1) What do I do about the grass that's still alive/growing? I feel like it's too early to mow any new seedlings/it'll pull up the straw, and I only have a big Toro SuperRecycler.. better to wait and see what happens with germination instead of mowing?
2) Do you water in your chlorothalonil? I can only see one recommendation about not watering for 24 hours after application (answering a question on DoMyOwn), but wondering if that's more worried about runoff vs a light watering.. the label just says not to water/mow until thoroughly dry, so not sure where that advice came from.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

It looks like grey leaf spot. 4th Millenium is a great variety but scores mediocre on NTEP with GLS. You can put whatever fungicide down but if that’s the only variety you seeded with it’s always going to be susceptible. I would consider another variety or two in addition to 4th millennium that is more resistant to grey leaf.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

jcs43920 said:


> It looks like grey leaf spot. 4th Millenium is a great variety but scores mediocre on NTEP with GLS. You can put whatever fungicide down but if that’s the only variety you seeded with it’s always going to be susceptible. I would consider another variety or two in addition to 4th millennium that is more resistant to grey leaf.


My initial bare-dirt renovation 2 years ago was with SuperSeedStore's TTTF blend, so 4th Mil was just what I got this year for the overseed because SSS was out of their fescue when I tried to order and it seemed like a strong cultivar to have in the yard.. Not sure what all % of what has survived this most recent outbreak, but I'm sure I'll have to overseed again next fall and will definitely use a combination of stuff


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

uncken said:


> My questions now are really:
> 
> 1) What do I do about the grass that's still alive/growing? I feel like it's too early to mow any new seedlings/it'll pull up the straw, and I only have a big Toro SuperRecycler.. better to wait and see what happens with germination instead of mowing?
> 2) Do you water in your chlorothalonil? I can only see one recommendation about not watering for 24 hours after application (answering a question on DoMyOwn), but wondering if that's more worried about runoff vs a light watering.. the label just says not to water/mow until thoroughly dry, so not sure where that advice came from.


1) You can wait for the new grass to get to around 5 inches and then mow back to 3.5 or so. Some people say to start mowing earlier but I haven't noticed a difference.
2) Chlorothalonil is a contact fungicide versus systemic. Azoxystrobin and t-methyl are systemics. Analogy is aspirin is like a systemic whereas neosporin is a contact. Contacts don't penetrate so ideally, you would never water them in. Obviously, that's not practical. The product has a surfactant that gives it some stickiness so it's not like it all washes off when you water it.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

uncken said:


> It's not labeled for residential use primarily because they never did the studies about whether it was safe for kids to play in the grass or eat dirt treated by it after application, can be an irritant/etc. I have neither of those conditions to worry about, the area is roped off, doesn't touch any other yards, and I'm pretty confident in my spraying technique. I'm also trained in working with hazardous chemicals, so that's not something that concerns me much either.


This is not correct. Daconil was labeled for residential use. Daconil is still labeled for your tomatoes plants. It is also labeled for golf course/greens and I think parks and fields. Kids walking barefoot, crawling, doing cartwheels on grass covered with Daconil is a risk to them i think up to 7 days post application. The label was updated to remove residential.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

g-man said:


> This is not correct. Daconil was labeled for residential use. Daconil is still labeled for your tomatoes plants. It is also labeled for golf course/greens and I think parks and fields. Kids walking barefoot, crawling, doing cartwheels on grass covered with Daconil is a risk to them i think up to 7 days post application. The label was updated to remove residential.


Actually, if you look at the EPA's findings, on pg. 35, it specifies that they wanted more information about how much of the product was dislodgeable from the leaf after application, but the company had no studies to show that one way or another. 

EPA's re-registration decision for Chlorothalonil



> "The studies submitted by the registrant do not address post-application exposure to treated turfgrass in residential situations. Although two of the studies address post-application exposure of golfers and mowers following chlorothalonil treatments to golf courses, no measurements of foliar dislodgeable residues were made. By measuring human exposure and available dislodgeable foliar residues concurrently, transfer factors can be calculated."


On page 160, the decision reads:



> "The Agency has determined that chlorothalonil products, labeled and used as specified in this Reregistration Eligibility Decision, will not pose unreasonable risks or adverse effects to humans or the environment. Under the mandate of the Food Quality Protection Act of 1996, the Agency has determined that there is a reasonable certainty that no harm will result to infants and children from aggregate exposure to chlorothalonil. Therefore, the Agency concludes that products containing chlorothalonil are eligible for reregistration contingent upon the implementation of the mitigation measures set forth in this document."


The removal from lawns seems primarily due to a lack of evidence/studies one way or another about a potential increased risk (especially to children) in lawns because of playing in, bare-skin exposure, possibly putting the grass/their hands in the mouths, etc -- without knowing how much of the product is dislodgeable from the plant after an application. 

Since I don't have any of those conditions to worry about and have the area roped off, I feel pretty safe going off-label with my specific circumstances. Other people/situations may be different, and if I had kids playing in my yard/running through/etc, I would probably not be using this.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

tgreen said:


> 1) You can wait for the new grass to get to around 5 inches and then mow back to 3.5 or so. Some people say to start mowing earlier but I haven't noticed a difference.
> 2) Chlorothalonil is a contact fungicide versus systemic. Azoxystrobin and t-methyl are systemics. Analogy is aspirin is like a systemic whereas neosporin is a contact. Contacts don't penetrate so ideally, you would never water them in. Obviously, that's not practical. The product has a surfactant that gives it some stickiness so it's not like it all washes off when you water it.


My main worry with letting it grow that tall is in the past I've had issues with the new seedlings flopping over and then moisture/etc causing more problems because it gets matted.. I guess I'll have to find some sort of balance?

And yeah, I can't really not water since I put more seed down, so I guess I'll have to just hope for the best and reapply at the earliest possible date. I'm trying to keep the water very light right now and only once or twice a day since it's cool and the ground is staying pretty moist after all the rain from the hurricane. I'm planning to do another round of Propicanizole this weekend as well, then t-methyl/chloro again.. and by that time we'll probably have either had a frost or hopefully it'll be too cold/germination will have happened and I can stop for the year.

Next year I will definitely be doing earlier applications of preventative stuff, because this is the second year something like this has happened!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

uncken said:


> Now, however, a lot of my new seedlings seem to be "fading" and then dying off into thin/wispy strands,


Uncken, any update on this? Are the seedlings still failing? Did the chlorothalonil work? Have you had a freeze yet?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

tgreen said:


> Uncken, any update on this? Are the seedlings still failing? Did the chlorothalonil work? Have you had a freeze yet?


I was just about to post an update! The chlorothalonil basically stopped it in its tracks. I saw a clear recovery of the grass in the week after application, and since I ended up getting a lot of germination in that following week, the timing was basically perfect. It's still not super thick germination, but it's so late now I just want it to survive the winter and I imagine it'll be more full in the spring.. I may try to toss a bit of seed down in 1 or 2 areas where it's still pretty patchy, we're getting at least 10 days of 70+ days with 50+ nights, so I figure why not?

I followed up Chlorothalonil with the rotation of Propi again, and was thinking about doing one last round of T-Methyl/Chloro because it's going to warm back up a bit for the next week or two.. but haven't seen any new indications of fungus.. and I've also cut way back on watering to non-germination levels, which has definitely helped.

I'll try to post some pictures once I get home! Thank you for the suggestion!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Awesome! That's great news. Definitely not going to hurt anything by putting down more seed. Have you had a freeze at all yet this Fall? If so, you should be good. If not, definitely assume it's still around and have the chlorothalonil ready to go again.


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