# Help for grass that "fell over."



## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Hi,

I'm a novice at lawncare and bought a house about a year ago. I pulled a ton of weeds out of the front lawn and reseeded all the bare patches with KBG. I have been using a reel mower (Fiskars Staysharp Reel Mower). It looks pretty good to my untrained eye, although I don't know if you guys will disagree. (This is not one of the areas I reseeded, I just took it at random, so I know this is not ***. The lawn in general is just a random mix of grass, the last homeowner didn't really seem to care much.)



Anyways, the back yard is an entirely different issue. It's more shaded and there are a lot of places that are difficult to mow with a reel mower. Also, I've been trying to cut the grass high (like 3.5") because I had read that was better. Unfortunately, I didn't pay much attention and just mowed and after a while I realized that there were lots of areas that were "laying down." The grass was sort of swirly and lay flat.



The problem is that it's been flat so long that the grass is *very* long, so even if I rake it up, it won't stand long enough to get mowed. Also, predictably, since the grass is so long, although the lawn looks nice and green if I rake the grass upwards there are just large bare patches underneath. In addition, the grass itself forms this weird "mat" where the grass blades are all interconnected and tangled. Also, you can tell there's so much moisture underneath that the grass is actually rotting. Anyways, what I tried to do was - don't laugh, this was sort of crazy - use grass shears to hand-cut these areas. Then I would rake up the grass clippings because they were so long that they'd just kill the grass if I left it behind. But by the time I had done that, the remaining grass was just almost all dead (and still lay flat even though it was much shorter). Here's a picture of a small section that I did:



I have no idea if it's going to come back, but I doubt it. I may need to reseed it, but if so then I have the following questions:

1. Why did the grass "fall over" in the first place? Like even random grass you see in the median of a highway that they let grow out will still stand up. So what made this grass fall over so I can avoid that again?

2. Any chance that the grass will come back from the few scattered blades of green grass? Do I wait?

3. I unfortunately won't be able to mow myself for the rest of the summer, so I'm starting to use a lawn service. But of course they just bring standing mowers around and ride around the lawn. So any suggestions on how to reseed around that? When I did my front lawn, I actually sort of cordoned off areas of my lawn and did sections at a time, but it was so painful that I never want to do that again.

4. Or is there anything I can do to avoid reseeding? That would, of course, be the best thing for me. I'm not a lawn guy, I just want healthy grass, so I'm honestly not looking to spend hours redoing the lawn. I did do it for my front lawn, but I still have nightmares about it.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Triv grass I'm thinking but hopefully not. Triv thrives in spring and fall but dies off in the summer. Grab it if it pull up like a carpet especially the brown areas it's most likely triv


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

I don't know what triv grass is, but it's probably not that because last year this didn't happen. It's dead because the grass got too long and fell over and became matted. I just don't know what to do about it now or how to prevent it from happening again. I have other areas that are like this but I don't want to keep going around and hand cutting the grass. It takes hours to do even small areas because I'll rake it up and it's just this giant mat. Then I randomly cut off large chunks of it (which probably also isn't good for the grass) and then I rake it up and then all the dead grass is coming out, too. And then I have to keep repeating until the grass is short enough, but meanwhile there's all this bare dirt and dead grass. It's extremely frustrating.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

OK, I looked up "poa trivialis" and looked at some guy's video. I see where you're coming from, but I still don't think so. It says that it's "lime green" and this stuff was dark green. It also says that it doesn't "mow high" well and can lay flat and I'd say that the video looks like my lawn. But like I said it didn't happen to me last year, so that would be weird. The main difference was that last year I had a lawn service and they used a riding lawnmower. This year I've been mowing myself with a reel mower. I think the suction from the rotary blades of the gas-powered lawnmower was able to pull in the grass better and cut it whereas my reel mower just sort of rolled over the grass.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lower your mower to around 2in and mow it. The type of grass there is not for 4in hoc.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

g-man said:


> Lower your mower to around 2in and mow it. The type of grass there is not for 4in hoc.


Yeah, I'm trying that. The only problem is I think I really botched things. I figured that if I cut it short the blades would stand up better. So I raked it upwards and chopped it off. But the grass is really long, so I'm probably cutting off 6" or more in one hit, which is probably not good for the grass. Then, when I've raked up all of the clippings, all that is left, as I posted, is mostly dead grass with just a few strands of green. And it's not healthy green, it's just a few stringy blades of green. That's why I'm getting really frustrated. I really don't know what to do because I feel like I'm hurting my lawn more than helping it. I know I do have to get rid of that long grass, since the grass is literally rotting, but then all that's left is dead anyways.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

floppygrass said:


> It's dead because the grass got too long and fell over and became matted. I just don't know what to do about it now or how to prevent it from happening again.


This is classic poa trivialis. The matted grass are stolons. They lift easily off the soil and look like spaghetti?

I'm 100% sure based on your pics and description. In the short term, stop killing yourself hand cutting the grass. It does no good. Once you've digested the info and done the google searches, come back and I'll try to help.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Yeah. But if it's triv, then it seems like it's dead and not just dormant. I mean, the stuff is toasted and just pulls out and there's bare dirt under it.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

The triv would like you to think that. Unfortunately it will be back. You should dig it out and re seed the areas it's in. Otherwise cut lower and just live with it as there's no selective control that is guaranteed to work for poa t.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

I'm going to hate reseeding. Is this like I have to dispose of the soil in the trash type deal? Like is it a nuclear contaminant? Or can I just set it aside somewhere? And what's the best grass to use to reseed? This part of my backyard is in shade for a good part of the day, so I was going to use a Scott's Sun & Shade blend. Think that's good?


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

floppygrass said:


> Yeah. But if it's triv, then it seems like it's dead and not just dormant. I mean, the stuff is toasted and just pulls out and there's bare dirt under it.


That's what triv grass looks like in the summer it thrives in spring and fall and dormant now but not dead. It will come back in the fall and spread with vengeance . This is my triv area now. The stolons run above the soil line that's why it dies off in the summer heat. But trust me it's not dead it's dormant


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

It doesn't come up like a carpet, like your pictures. This is what's confusing. tgreen is right that it's like a big mass of spaghetti that sort of sits on top of the dirt like a mat. But that's different from your description and pictures where the sod is peeling back. The other thing that keeps bothering me is that it's not like the "lime green" that other sources online mentioned and it wasn't there last year.

Here's a picture of a section of it *after* I hacked it down. It's just a tangled mess of dead blades.



Here's what's it looks like in between the blades, just bare dirt. But it doesn't peel back. It's dead blades in the ground with wide bare patches in between and it seriously is rotting. I keep mentioning that because you can smell it decomposing.



This might sound weird to you guys but I'd actually feel better if it was triv because my worry is that I messed up and killed my grass. If it's triv, then it wasn't anything I did. Like I'm worried that my lawn is too compacted and the grass died because it got some fungal thing. I even went and did some minor manual core aeration to it yesterday to try to dry out the area.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

No it's triv. I don't know how much you actually have but if it's manageable hand dig it out and make sure you dig 6" past where you see it to make sure you get the stolens. If not and it's too much you might have to start again with full renovation (multiple round up applications) and either seed or sod.

I'd stay away from the Scotts stuff. Search the forum for "grass seed sources" to get a idea of better retailers for buying your seed.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Does this stuff kill off other grasses? Because I can't dig it up this year (I'm away from home because of my work, so it's a no go). Like if I don't deal with it, does it spread? Or just stay where it is and look ugly and embarrassing? And do I have to throw away the dirt or can I just put it aside somewhere and wait for the remaining grass to die and then reuse it a few months later?


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

It spreads. Get rid of what you remove.


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## BlazingCattles (7 mo ago)

That looks like bent grass to me. I believe tenacity can take that out.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Try using the VA Tech tool here to identify the grass. On the left hand side you can click on each characteristic (like auricle, ligule, stem, leaf arrangement) and it gives pictures so you know what to look for.
https://weedid.cals.vt.edu/selectors/2
Poa triv is on the list in the right hand side as rough bluegrass. Bentgrass is there as creeping bentgrass.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

floppygrass said:


> It doesn't come up like a carpet, like your pictures. This is what's confusing. tgreen is right that it's like a big mass of spaghetti that sort of sits on top of the dirt like a mat. But that's different from your description and pictures where the sod is peeling back. The other thing that keeps bothering me is that it's not like the "lime green" that other sources online mentioned and it wasn't there last year.
> 
> Here's a picture of a section of it *after* I hacked it down. It's just a tangled mess of dead blades.
> 
> ...


Looks like it could be heat stress to me. If your lawn is your basic sun and shade package they sell in the stores, you've probably got a fair amount of PRG and fine fescue, which can't take the heat, to coin a phrase. It will smell like dead grass, even if dry with no fungus, because it's dead, DED, dead. Happens to me every summer, because I'm planting cool season grass in the transition zone. I'm not sure where you live, but I do think the transition zone has clearly spread well into New England now due to climate change. It is not my impression that the traditional maps you see all over the place reflect this new reality. I really should switch to TTTF, but I like the way PRG looks in spring and fall, and it quick to reestablish after reseeding in the fall.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

floppygrass said:


> It says that it's "lime green" and this stuff was dark green. It also says that it doesn't "mow high" well and can lay flat and I'd say that the video looks like my lawn.


Triv looks completely different in the spring/ fall versus summer. In the cool season it is thick, grows faster than TF or KBG and is light green in color. In the summer heat, it develops stolons (the spaghetti looking things) and those stolons are very shallow rooted and growth is decumbent/ along the ground. You will see small tillers growing upright along the stolons but they don't typically get higher than an inch or two



floppygrass said:


> But like I said it didn't happen to me last year, so that would be weird. The main difference was that last year I had a lawn service and they used a riding lawnmower. This year I've been mowing myself with a reel mower.


Are you sure you just didn't notice it last year? Speaking of which, most people that initially identify a patch of triv have more than that once they look for it.



floppygrass said:


> So I raked it upwards and chopped it off. But the grass is really long, so I'm probably cutting off 6" or more in one hit, which is probably not good for the grass. Then, when I've raked up all of the clippings, all that is left, as I posted, is mostly dead grass with just a few strands of green.


You are basically just standing-up the stolons, cutting them off and then are left with what looks like hay/ dead grass. Several years ago, before I knew what it was, I did the same thing. I know exactly what you're talking about.



floppygrass said:


> Does this stuff kill off other grasses? Because I can't dig it up this year (I'm away from home because of my work, so it's a no go). Like if I don't deal with it, does it spread?


It spreads. The stolons will snake through the good grass and end up out-competing it in the conditions you describe, i.e., shade and wet. Also, contrary to what you might read, poa triv does set seed. Seed heads are not nearly as prolific as poa annua, however.



floppygrass said:


> It doesn't come up like a carpet, like your pictures. This is what's confusing. tgreen is right that it's like a big mass of spaghetti that sort of sits on top of the dirt like a mat.


It may be semantics. The triv is shallow rooted at this time of year. You mentioned you're able to rake the stolons vertically off the ground to mow them. If you look closely, the stolons that you just stood-up have a very shallow root structure (like 1/4") at the nodes. This is what we mean when we say it can be rolled up and/or lifted off the ground.





floppygrass said:


> is there anything I can do to avoid reseeding?


You have a few options. Based on your posts and the shady and damp conditions of this area, the first quesiton is can you just live with it? Stop babying it, hand cutting, standing-up the stolons, etc and just let it be. If not, then you need to first get rid of the triv. To do that, I'd manually pick up as much of it as you can. Then, starting 4 weeks before your seeding window I'd hit it with roundup 3 times with two weeks in between. Make sure to keep the area watered during the process so nothing goes dormant. Reseed it as a renovation during your ideal seeding window.

If you go this route, however, know that the triv will most definitely come back in future years and you'll need to be vigilant at hand picking it and possibly gly-ing spots every other year. I would say the vigilance part will be difficult unless you're mowing your own grass.

Hopefully I got all your quesitons. Good luck.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

All right, so I decided to try ripping up the sod, as suggested. I'm posting some pictures for criticism and also for anyone else in my same situation as encouragement. I dug out a section of yard, but it wasn't the entire affected area for now because I didn't have enough topsoil. Also, I want to do this in sections, like I did with my front lawn.

Here is a shot of some of the stuff I dug up. It does look like a lot of stolons.



Here's the area I removed with a shovel for some perspective. I didn't go the suggested 6 inches, only like 2 inches. If the grass comes back then I'll just let it come back. I chucked all of the removed soil and grass into a wooded area on my property.



Here's some grass at the edge. I'm not sure if this is still triv. It might be, but I'm trying to get the major areas and not sweating getting everything.



I then filled back with topsoil, using about 3 cubic feet.



Then I seeded the topsoil with some Pennington Sun & Shade.



Afterwards, I raked in the seed lightly and watered it in. It's going to be tight because, like I said, I'm going to be away from home in about 10 days. So I'll water for 10 days and then it's on its own and I hope it takes.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That lawn can also be fine fescues too or creeping red.

Regardless, that soil you added is likely full of weeds. Get more seeds for mid august, I doubt those will make it.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

What type of soil should I have used to not have weeds?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Your own soil might have less, but all soils have weeds. The ones in a bag from a big box store have plenty. The best way to avoid the weeds is to use the soil, water it without your seeds to make the weeds grow and then kill them with round up. We call this fallowing. Check the Renovation guide within the Cool season guide.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Oh, someone on this thread told me to throw away my soil because it would have triv in it still. Anyways, I'm cramped on time so I unfortunately don't have the ability to do all this other stuff. Hopefully this works out. If not, I'll just live with a bare patch for now.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

It looks a lot like Cuba.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

floppygrass said:


> All right, so I decided to try ripping up the sod, as suggested. I'm posting some pictures for criticism and also for anyone else in my same situation as encouragement. I dug out a section of yard, but it wasn't the entire affected area for now because I didn't have enough topsoil. Also, I want to do this in sections, like I did with my front lawn.
> 
> 
> Afterwards, I raked in the seed lightly and watered it in. It's going to be tight because, like I said, I'm going to be away from home in about 10 days. So I'll water for 10 days and then it's on its own and I hope it takes.


It looks a lot like Haiti.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

floppygrass said:


> …The main difference was that last year I had a lawn service and they used a riding lawnmower. …


Hoo, boy-howdy. This is where I go astray of friends who mow professionally … but, I'll ask anyway:

Any idea where else that mower has been? And what all was up under the deck when they left any of those places that happened to fall out from under the decks and onto your yard?

I ask as I've been there; had my yard looking goooooood but, situations added up one summer to me calling a buddy who mowed while the wife and I were out of town for long stretches.

The next year was the season from Hades and I couldn't for the life of me figure out where all these noxious weed were popping up from, that I normally see alongside the road …

Couple hours after pondering that my buddy waved as I passed him on the way to run an errand.

He was mowing foot tall weeds alongside our rural roadway … :shock:

Never - ever - again for me, if I can help it!

Hope you get yours sorted out without too much pain or expense ... sounds like you're on the right path and sometimes lack of time (or fund$) also prevents me from overcoming a challenge right away …


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Good point, but as I'm sure you know I don't think any lawn service is going to take very kindly to being quizzed about what's on their mower blade or deck. I'd optimally like to mow my own yard, but unfortunately I'm currently not able to. Anyways, even if I was mowing on my own, which I did earlier this year, I still wouldn't be doing all the things I'm "supposed" to do. Like I've never gotten a soil test and I just contract with TruGreen to fertilize my yard. It seems to work, so I'm not bothered by it.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

floppygrass said:


> Good point, but as I'm sure you know I don't think any lawn service is going to take very kindly to being quizzed about what's on their mower blade or deck. I'd optimally like to mow my own yard, but unfortunately I'm currently not able to. Anyways, even if I was mowing on my own, which I did earlier this year, I still wouldn't be doing all the things I'm "supposed" to do. Like I've never gotten a soil test and I just contract with TruGreen to fertilize my yard. It seems to work, so I'm not bothered by it.


Yep. Sometimes all we can do is go the extra lengths on pre-em, etc.

I still haven't figured out what I'm gonna do when I can't mow this estate, due either to age or even an injury within next 10 years.

Honestly, I try not to think about it lest I catch myself walking past a mirror looking like Laurel of Laurel and Hardy … :roll:


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

I would ask them to at least hose off their tools before they cut. I don't think they would object too much if you let them use your hose to do it.


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## TheLink (7 mo ago)

M32075 said:


> floppygrass said:
> 
> 
> > Yeah. But if it's triv, then it seems like it's dead and not just dormant. I mean, the stuff is toasted and just pulls out and there's bare dirt under it.
> ...


Looks like Jumping Worms damage to me.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Just posting an update. After 7 days, my grass is coming in nicely! I hope they survive once I have to leave and can't water.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

If you end up redoing this area in the fall, make sure you get as much of the triv out while you can. Below pic has an arrow to what looks like triv. The top of the photo is too blurry so can't tell. It's likely you have more than you think.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Yeah, I definitely have more, unfortunately. I just took out one large section as a test case to see how the grass would grow in the shade and also whether the triv would come back in it. Part of the difficulty is also that there's no clear boundary where it grows and I don't want to do a really wide removal of everything because I would end up probably having to reseed half of my back yard. But where you were pointing leads to another large section.


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## llO0DQLE (Dec 4, 2017)

g-man said:


> That lawn can also be fine fescues too or creeping red.


My first impression was Creeping Red Fescue as well. I had that in my old lawn and had the same issues my first year of being a lawn care nut. I "mowed high" because that was the advice and I'd get these swirls and matting. CRF does not look good mowed high. I think a 2" HOC max or less is better.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

I'm not sure what it is, to be honest. I'm not sold on it being poa trivialis, although it could be. I know Virginiagal has posted her identification guide, but I don't really get a good ID with it because it's just a mass of dead grass that is all swirly and sits like a mat on top of my soil. The soil itself doesn't "roll up" like M32075's. I guess the point for me is that whatever it is, it's not working out. It's either dormant or dead and the rest of my backyard is not. So I'm going to replace it but I'm not in a major rush or whatever and I'm not trying to get every single last blade. That's my current thinking.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Here are some additional photos of affected areas. Like I said, I can't really ID anything because the dead grass is now just a mat of dead grass. It has rained a few times and I've gotten small islands of individual grass blades that have poked up. Is that how triv revives?



I pulled the mat of dead grass back and it was just bare dirt underneath. I won't be able to do anything for it until the fall.



On the plus side, the area I did redo continues to do well.


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Another vote for poa triv.

It's weird because at certain times of year when the sun isn't hitting it too bad it doesn't look all that terrible. But then other times of the year it goes dormant or if it's out in the sun it's absolutely ugly as heck.

Poa triv can also resemble creeping red fescue at times. Then other times look nothing like it al all.


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## floppygrass (7 mo ago)

Just quickly posting my final set of pictures for the new grass. It's been like 10 days since seeding with daily watering until yesterday. It's been in the upper 80s with no rain during that entire duration, but the grass looks good and no weeds. Again, this was just Scott's topsoil and Pennington seed. I'm a little worried that the guy who has been mowing my lawn will scalp it and it will die while I'm gone, but if that happens I'll just replant. I have two more large areas of what also appears to be poa to take care of and then I should be good to go. (Since I don't water, the rest of my lawn is dormant, lol.)


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Definitely triv grass. In the heat of the summer after a heavy rain dormant triv grass lay's flat on the ground. But trust me it's not dead it's dormant it will come back with vengeance in the fall and spring with cooler weather


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

take a pic of the tag on the bag showing the grass type..... looks like some rye in it... 
that turf has nice color you just planted. keep it wet, it will grow. if its rye....It will stress alot in heat-dry cond.

dont beat yourself up. Its not easy getting grass real nice. If it was, there wouldnt be forums and soo much discussion.

alot of info here....read up.


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