# Improving aeration/overseed success



## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

All,

In the past, I've done fall aeration and overseeding and noticed little change in my lawn. I chalk this up to two reasons: (1) I did not put enough seed down (seeded TTTF at a rate of probably 1 lb/1000), and (2) my lawn is usually "recovered" and growing vigorously (needs cut at least once per week, usually 2 times per week) at the optimum time for overseeding.

I have a northern mix lawn that looks great for a couple of weeks in spring, and a month or so in fall. It has a lot of thin-bladed, floppy grass which has a tendency to fungus, and doesn't weather the summer heat well. It never dies off to the point of bare dirt, just has different hues of brown throughout the summer months. My dream is to get some TTTF in to the mix to improve summer color and drought tolerance, without conducting a full reno.

If I were to buy enough seed to overseed at a rate of 5 lb/1000 (higher end of the recommended overseed rate for TTTF), how can I increase my chances of germination and success for that seed? Is it even possible to do so in a vigorously growing lawn, would I be wasting money?

Attached is a pic from two weeks ago. We received 1 inch of rain this week and it has already started to green up substantially. I believe if this were more TTTF, the amount of brown, stressed lawn in this picture would be significantly reduced. In fact, I do have areas of the yard which are 100% TTTF which remained deep green all summer.

Thanks!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Sounds like Fine Fescue. The best you could do is to have *some* TTTF establish in there. Best way to do that is to mow really low and bag the stuff. It'll take a few passes. Then dethatch/rake it out really well to open up lots of space. And then seed with about 6 lbs per thousand of TTTF and topdress with peat moss.

If done right, you should end up with about 1/3 TTTF in the lawn.

Like I told the previous person, overseeding during dormancy is a great idea.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

So, there is hope of getting tall fescue to establish in already dense areas of fine fescue? My front yard is about half fine fescue on the shadier side of it and I was going to glyphosate the fine fescue side and seed tall. I'm mildly hesitant because there is a good bit of shade where the fine fescue is. I just don't like that leaning over swirly look of fine fescue cut at 4".


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Green said:


> Sounds like Fine Fescue. The best you could do is to have *some* TTTF establish in there. Best way to do that is to mow really low and bag the stuff. It'll take a few passes. Then dethatch/rake it out really well to open up lots of space. And then seed with about 6 lbs per thousand of TTTF and topdress with peat moss.
> 
> If done right, you should end up with about 1/3 TTTF in the lawn.
> 
> Like I told the previous person, overseeding during dormancy is a great idea.


Thanks. I have also suspected fine fescue is one of the key grasses I have, based upon some of its characteristics matching what I've been reading of late. I know there is some KBG, particularly around the house, but the rest of the yard may have more FF. It was seeded about 10 years ago now by a builder, and I believe hydroseeded. Though the house is built to higher end specs, I don't believe any real consideration was given to a higher end lawn.

I know some have great success with FF, but if this is what I have, I haven't been able to figure out how to get it to look as good as the TTTF sections I've renovated. It cuts poorly, seems to take on fungus within weeks of greening up early in the season, and dries out quick. In fact, even the areas where I overseeded with a TTTF/KBG mix don't hold up as well as the pure TTTF. That's why I've identified TTTF as the grass type I want.

I like the idea of mowing low before seeding. It won't be easy, as my property is a little on the larger side, but I imagine I could do sections each weekend. Any concerns if I aerate in between mowing and seeding, as opposed to dethatching? I have a core aerator, and that would be far easier than trying to find a way to get a dethatcher on the lawn.

The trouble with this lawn is it will stay dormant for so long, but with a little bit of rain, it comes out of dormancy fast. We got 1.5" of rain last week, and that picture from above is already mostly green. Unfortunately still not a great looking lawn.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Lawn Noob said:


> So, there is hope of getting tall fescue to establish in already dense areas of fine fescue? My front yard is about half fine fescue on the shadier side of it and I was going to glyphosate the fine fescue side and seed tall. I'm mildly hesitant because there is a good bit of shade where the fine fescue is. I just don't like that leaning over swirly look of fine fescue cut at 4".


I did the kill on one of the shadier areas, this past spring, with about 5000-7000 sq ft of the lawn. I had both dominant fine fescue and a triv problem. It worked out well so far. No finished pics, but I can try to get some.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@mooch91, aeration is potentially a good solution in your case, but they usually recommend three passes minimum if seeding, to really open up the soil. You should be able to visually determine the right amount.

Mowing low in several passes is also essential. You don't necessarily have to collect clippings if you're aerating. But if you were dethatching, you'd probably find it essential to collect them.

If you have grass or mold allergies, you'll want to take something before mowing straw.

Sounds like aeration is the easier solution. But it can be labor intensive, I hear. I've never used an aerator personally yet...only a dethatcher, so I can't compare. I've only hired out aeration so far, and it's been years.

After the overseed, you can start managing for TTTF. The FF will not dominate once you start doing that. As mentioned, you'll end up with about 30% Tall Fescue.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Green said:


> Like I told the previous person, overseeding during dormancy is a great idea.


I asked this in a different thread. Is there any harm when raking dormant grass for prep of a overseed ?
Aka, blades dry, maybe gone and just crown


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

mobiledynamics said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Like I told the previous person, overseeding during dormancy is a great idea.
> ...


Not sure. But I know I'm usually not too concerned since I'm overseeding. If it's a concern, I try not to let it get too dormant in the first place.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Green said:


> @mooch91, aeration is potentially a good solution in your case, but they usually recommend three passes minimum if seeding, to really open up the soil. You should be able to visually determine the right amount.
> 
> Mowing low in several passes is also essential. You don't necessarily have to collect clippings if you're aerating. But if you were dethatching, you'd probably find it essential to collect them.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I have my own aerator, a lightly used Bluebird rental unit I bought a few years back. I'll do as many passes as needed until my body gives out. 

The dead pics I posted were from the spring. In that area, I killed, then mowed as low as possible, many passes, and simply spread the seed over top. That's what I'm trying to avoid for the rest of the lawn. It was difficult work and took many weeks of patience to wait for it to all die out. Plus the mowing was hell. I'm interested to try a heavy overseed on low-cut grass to see if I can get some success without going the kill route.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Just make sure you get good contact. If the aeration gives you that, great. Just beware of any Triv...aeration can spread it.

Why not start mowing a week ahead of time? Rather than all at once.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Green said:


> Just make sure you get good contact. If the aeration gives you that, great. Just beware of any Triv...aeration can spread it.
> 
> Why not start mowing a week ahead of time? Rather than all at once.


Probably will split it in to sections. This lawn grows like gangbusters - I cut at 3.25" and I usually need to mow twice per week to avoid having to cut 2" off. I think that's another one of the challenges of overseeding while it's growing; it will grow in and shade the seed/seedlings before it has a chance.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

mooch91 said:


> Probably will split it in to sections. This lawn grows like gangbusters - I cut at 3.25" and I usually need to mow twice per week to avoid having to cut 2" off. I think that's another one of the challenges of overseeding while it's growing; it will grow in and shade the seed/seedlings before it has a chance.


You could use a PGR.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Green said:


> You could use a PGR.


Never got in to the PGR space previously. Any recommendations on something relatively inexpensive, easy to use and apply to a larger area, safely?


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

@Green what is low for FF? I'm trying to achieve the same of introducing some TTTF without gly.

@mooch91 you can look at tnex.. that looks like the go to initial one and on the cheaper side


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@uts, as low as as is practical in the specific case. It helps with the overseed.

@mooch91, so does the PGR, if you're in a situation where the old grass might overtake the new. It totally prevents it during that three or so weeks it needs. And then you need to be prepared to know like crazy, because you'll often get surge growth after the PGR. Mowing 2-3 times a week for a couple of weeks in some cases. This usually starts after the third or 4th week. But the frequent mowing actually helps the new grass, as well. Once it slows down, you can do your second fert app. By that time, the lawn will look very different from how it did before the overseed.

A gallon of T-Nex would be a great investment with a yard the size of yours. And it might be the second best thing you could do/use to improve the overseed results...after mowing low/seed to soil contact/topdressing and Tenacity. And you can tank mix Tenacity and T-Nex.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Green said:


> @uts, as low as as is practical in the specific case. It helps with the overseed.
> 
> @mooch91, so does the PGR, if you're in a situation where the old grass might overtake the new. It totally prevents it during that three or so weeks it needs. And then you need to be prepared to know like crazy, because you'll often get surge growth after the PGR. Mowing 2-3 times a week for a couple of weeks in some cases. This usually starts after the third or 4th week. But the frequent mowing actually helps the new grass, as well. Once it slows down, you can do your second fert app. By that time, the lawn will look very different from how it did before the overseed.
> 
> A gallon of T-Nex would be a great investment with a yard the size of yours. And it might be the second best thing you could do/use to improve the overseed results...after mowing low/seed to soil contact/topdressing and Tenacity. And you can tank mix Tenacity and T-Nex.


I'm going to strongly consider it. And probably finally upgrade my sprayer - to either a full spray rig, or at minimum, a battery operated 4 gal backpack. My 2 gal pump sprayer and 3 gal backpack pump won't cut it for this type of work. I've been holding out for a while, trying to find the best option for spraying the larger area I have.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Wondering if a broadcast app of Tenacity might be a helpful option? Slow/stunt the FF while overseeding the TTTF? About to do some research, but any thoughts?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

mooch91 said:


> Wondering if a broadcast app of Tenacity might be a helpful option? Slow/stunt the FF while overseeding the TTTF? About to do some research, but any thoughts?


Yes, but in conjunction with the PGR. Half rate of both tank mixed. Then repeat a week later, right before seeding.

The Tenacity will also act as a pre-M.

2oz per acre Tenacity, 0.5oz per thousand T-nex, and a little bit of NIS. you can do it in between mows. Then the second app same thing, after the final mow and right before aerating/seeding ideally (like a day or two before). It will over regulate, but that is fine.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

So I went forward with the aeration and overseed. Went with a low cut (got it down to 2.5", normal cut at 3.5"). Did not pursue PGR or a broadcast Tenacity. Completed 25K sq ft Sunday, today is Thursday.

One of two things happened: (1) Aeration is MAGIC on the lawn and caused it to come out of dormancy and thicken up almost immediately or (2) I timed the aeration perfectly with the lawn coming out of dormancy and a little bit of rain. I don't see any evidence of germination yet.

Unfortunately, the lawn grew at least 1.5-2" since Sunday. Can't even see many of the holes and plugs through the growth. 
So I don't know if there will be much germination except in the few hundred square ft bare areas that got really hit hard by the heat this summer. Looks like most of the tall growth is the KBG in the mix. I'm going to still try to let it get to 1.5 or 2 weeks before mowing (I would be itching to mow it today based on the length).

Some pics:

Week before aeration:


Day of aeration, short cut:


Today:


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## 1028mountain (Oct 1, 2019)

Looks great man.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

1028mountain said:


> Looks great man.


Thanks. I just dont think I was successful at getting anything new in there which was my goal.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

That looks great. Awesome transformation.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Harts said:


> That looks great. Awesome transformation.


Lol, thanks. Point is, I think that's the natural transformation the lawn would have made going in to the fall anyway...

I was trying the aerate and overseed to bring in some new TTTF cultivars to give it some better drought resistance next year. The existing grass grew back so quick, that I think I failed at that.


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## NYBandit33 (Sep 6, 2020)

Looks awesome. My plan is to move to PA one day and have property like that on a private quiet street.


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## 1028mountain (Oct 1, 2019)

Lol man. I think being on this forum forces you to do stuff you wouldn't do if you weren't on it.

How did the area you killed off fill in?


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

So, reporting back...

The aeration and overseed continues to fail miserably.

We got a surge of growth immediately after I completed, which had me skeptical that any of the new TTTF would actually germinate or rather would be crowded out by the existing lawn.

Then a couple of weeks later... nothing. Rain stopped. I'm about 5 weeks out from some of the areas I first aerated and overseeded and the lawn is visibly heat and drought stressed. My guess is that anything that did germinate in those areas is no longer alive. I just can't keep up with manually watering 1.5 acres, not to mention I'm starting to feel guilty about continuing to use water considering we're in a drought "watch" or "warning" county.

Mother nature got me good this year. I'm not crying over the work I put in - that was "fun" to some degree. I'm more upset at the $350 of seed I bought and probably lost.

Oh well.


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