# KBG overseeding



## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

I've been seeing a lot of posts recently of people attempting to overseed their lawns with kbg. I'm guessing doing this in hopes that it will establish itself and eventually be predominately KBG. But the chances of success are minimal and if it takes the chances of it out competing and crowding out the existing grass is minimal as well. A renovation is a lot of work but the work being put into overseeding kbg is just as much minus the glyphosate. A renovation is so much easier to get kbg established and the results will be so much better. So I'm wondering if you want a kbg lawn why not plant one?


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

I still have a lot to learn, but Green just posted something interesting that you should see.

Maybe your post is in reaction to his or just a coincidence? Either way, I provided my logic to overseeding with ***:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5407


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

I reno'd my neighbours' lawn last year, and overseeded mine with the same KBG blend.

My neighbours' lawn is dense, dark, and generally kicking arse.

I'm now doing a complete reno that I wish I had done last year.


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## coachpaul77 (Aug 17, 2018)

Sinclair said:


> I reno'd my neighbours' lawn last year, and overseeded mine with the same KBG blend.
> 
> My neighbours' lawn is dense, dark, and generally kicking arse.
> 
> I'm now doing a complete reno that I wish I had done last year.


Is it too late to start now? I haven't sprayed Roundup yet, but hoping to by the weekend. Wish I came here earlier (before I bought 50lbs of Bewitched).


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I am overseeding with KBG but also dropping new seed around the perimeter of my existing lawn.

This is my backyard, the grass is very thin. I'm guessing with this grass density over-seeding shouldn't be a problem?

I'm thinking that once the KBG establishes around the perimeter it will gradually fill in the rest of the lawn if the culture and environment favor the KBG. It will be interesting to see what happens.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Mozart said:


> I am overseeding with KBG but also dropping new seed around the perimeter of my existing lawn.
> 
> This is my backyard, the grass is very thin. I'm guessing with this grass density over-seeding shouldn't be a problem?
> 
> I'm thinking that once the KBG establishes around the perimeter it will gradually fill in the rest of the lawn if the culture and environment favor the KBG. It will be interesting to see what happens.


No matter how hard you try and how good your cultural practices you will still never completely get rid of what is there without selectively killing it. Mother Nature doesn't like bare spots so the bluegrass will grow and fill in what's bare but that's about as good as it gets


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Turfguy93 said:


> Mozart said:
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> > I am overseeding with KBG but also dropping new seed around the perimeter of my existing lawn.
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Interesting. I would have thought if the KBG grows tall and thick in the bare spots it might shade out the fine fescue, for example. If the fine fescue dies due to heat or loses vigor due to increased shade from KBG, wouldn't that make room for the KBG?

Or if the fine fescue is cut short in the summer heat, I would assume the KBG could handle the stress but the fine fescue would die out, would KBG then fill in?

In fact isn't this a valid weed elimination strategy? Let the grass grow tall and crowd out weeds?

I'm not shooting for 100% KBG but if my lawn is currently 40% "other" after the KBG establishes I am aiming to reduce that to 30% or less through cultural practices after overseeding.

This is my first year with a lawn though so I could very well be making some invalid assumptions (limited experience).


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## TheSwede (Jul 10, 2018)

Mozart said:


> Turfguy93 said:
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Thing with the fine fescue varieties is that they are generally more shade tolerant, demand less nutrients in the soil, is more stress tolerant and more tolerant against low HOC compared to KBG in general. If you want to promote KBG and make life hard for fescues, you should water a lot and fertilize vigorously and make sure there is no shade. And remember to keep winters mild .


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## BarakaRS (Jun 23, 2018)

I'll throw in my to inexperienced cents. My KBG overseed motivation does not come from wanting to get rid of what I have. I like my PRG lawn, but it's thin and I would like to thicken it up with something besides more PRG. With KBG's spreading qualities, I'm hoping to diversify the species in my lawn while at the same time making it fuller. If this does not work, I'll fully renovate the thing next year. Regardless of my success or lack thereof, I'm learning a whole heck of a lot in the process and enjoying myself as I go along here.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I second @Turfguy93 post. If you want KBG, gly is the way. I have a no mix and the kbg fills in, but it is still a mix with different growing patterns depending on the weather. It also gets different fungus for each species.

But, the time to start a reno is gone for must of us for this year. Plan for next year and start selecting the grass seeds you want. Under extreme circumstances (new construction, septic tank replacement), kbg might survive, but dont expect great results.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> It also gets different fungus for each species.


If they isolated and sold fungus that targets fescue but leaves KBG alone... I would buy it! Unfortunately no one sells diseases.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Turfguy93 said:


> I've been seeing a lot of posts recently of people attempting to overseed their lawns with kbg. I'm guessing doing this in hopes that it will establish itself and eventually be predominately KBG. But the chances of success are minimal and if it takes the chances of it out competing and crowding out the existing grass is minimal as well. A renovation is a lot of work but the work being put into overseeding kbg is just as much minus the glyphosate. A renovation is so much easier to get kbg established and the results will be so much better. So I'm wondering if you want a kbg lawn why not plant one?


There is a reason for grass seed blends. Diversity can be a strength and KBG brings a lot of desirable characteristics to a mix. Overseeding with KBG doesn't have to be for the purpose of attempting to create a predominantly KBG stand.

If someone did want only KBG, I agree with you.


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## macleod52 (Feb 23, 2018)

My back yard was new construction and the previous owners didn't water the seed that was there so there is a lot of bare areas. Also, there was erosion so it was like a washboard when I was mowing. I added 7 cu yds of dirt to help level/fill in the eroded areas. I've got about 1k sq ft of new dirt and 4k of patch rye/tttf. I'm attempting an overseed of KBG because I like that it will fill in any bare areas. I only spent about $75 on seed so I'm willing to test it out and see how it turns out. I'm not so concerned with having a full KBG yard at this time, plus the wife won't let me do a full reno at this time.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Turfguy93 said:
> 
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> > I've been seeing a lot of posts recently of people attempting to overseed their lawns with kbg. I'm guessing doing this in hopes that it will establish itself and eventually be predominately KBG. But the chances of success are minimal and if it takes the chances of it out competing and crowding out the existing grass is minimal as well. A renovation is a lot of work but the work being put into overseeding kbg is just as much minus the glyphosate. A renovation is so much easier to get kbg established and the results will be so much better. So I'm wondering if you want a kbg lawn why not plant one?
> ...


I was going to make a post like this, but you got to it first. This is important. If you want a mix, don't get the wrong idea and leave the KBG out when it's warranted to be used!

Where I live, KBG and TTTF/KBG mixes seem to work really well, unless you have shade. So, while a KBG lawn works really well, and may be the best option for a lot of the types of people on this site who fertilize regularly and keep an eye out for disease, mixes have their strengths, too.

Also, there's a push away from KBG-only in the general population, because of sustainability...the fertilizer need and water needs to stay green in moderate heat. Tall Fescue is being used more and more in Northern regions for a reason, but it's usually mixed with KBG because the recovery isn't as good due to the lack of appreciable spreading under typical conditions.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

So the whole idea of grass outcompeting weeds - is not transferable to one grass species outcompeting another?

Not sure if my Zoysia grass would agree. It's dominating my cool season grass, sadly. And doing a whole lot more than just "filling in the empty spots". Same goes for the small patch of Nimblewill.

@Turfguy93 @TheSwede @g-man

Are Zoysia, Nimblewill, Bermuda, Bentgrass, Poa Triv, etc. all exceptions to the rule? Or is there no steadfast rule regarding one grass type overtaking another?

Or is KBG just a nice guy that doesn't bother its neighbors (therefore KBG is an exception and has no ability to outcompete like many other grass species)?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I dont think there is a rule. Each grass will grow base on the conditions around it. Sun loving will win in the sunny areas and struggle in the shade.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

g-man said:


> I dont think there is a rule. Each grass will grow base on the conditions around it. Sun loving will win in the sunny areas and struggle in the shade.


Very true. Where I have loads of shade the fine fescues thrive. Looks beautiful too....so thin and wispy and likes to lay down and just barely green. So good.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

So the conclusion is that KBG *can* outcompete fescue if the conditions are right, but providing for those conditions may be problematic (can't control Mother Nature). Furthermore there may be inputs that the landowner can tweak that would prefer KBG over fescues.

There is a lot of conflicting information here... Do we have a consensus that the above statement is true now?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Mozart said:


> So the whole idea of grass outcompeting weeds - is not transferable to one grass species outcompeting another?
> 
> Not sure if my Zoysia grass would agree. It's dominating my cool season grass, sadly. And doing a whole lot more than just "filling in the empty spots". Same goes for the small patch of Nimblewill.
> 
> ...


There was at least one study I've seen about this. Something like how much KBG is left when established with PRG on a fairway. If I remember right, the answer was not much. Depending on growing conditions, different grass types or weeds can have dominance. The only way to find out what plays nice together in your lawn is to try, which is what you're doing. :thumbup:


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

coachpaul77 said:


> Sinclair said:
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> > I reno'd my neighbours' lawn last year, and overseeded mine with the same KBG blend.
> ...


Welcome, and there's nothing wrong with Bewitched! That's a great cultivar!

As g-man mentioned, the window is pretty much closed for starting a reno.

I am aiming for seed down on Sunday, weather permitting. If it looks like there's a washout in the forecast, I might hold back a couple days. I started my kill last week, and even that was later than ideal.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

I'll say this.....my renovation last year was 50/50 KBG/PRG and it appears that the PRG is already beginning it's domination. Next years reno will be all KBG. I can always seed PRG in if I want.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Mozart said:


> So the conclusion is that KBG *can* outcompete fescue if the conditions are right, but providing for those conditions may be problematic (can't control Mother Nature). Furthermore there may be inputs that the landowner can tweak that would prefer KBG over fescues.
> 
> There is a lot of conflicting information here... Do we have a consensus that the above statement is true now?


I know some fescues can't handle low mowing when it's hot and some don't come out of drought dormancy very well (or at all). So a KBG that tolerates low mowing and drought (pretty much all of the popular ones if I understand it correctly) would dominate over those fescues.

All fescues will thin eventually with traffic and heat and fungus stressors. My bet would be that over a long haul, eventually the KBG would win. It could take a very long time though.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Mozart said:


> Are Zoysia, Nimblewill, Bermuda, Bentgrass, Poa Triv, etc. all exceptions to the rule? Or is there no steadfast rule regarding one grass type overtaking another?


They all have stolons. Maybe it helps them establish on top of other grass areas to some extent...?

Rhizomes come out of the ground, so KBG can only fill in spots that are bare soil.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

The Zoysia in my yard (believe its Japonica El Toro) has underground stolons, which are still not rhizomes but this species takes over from below


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## b0nk3rs (Aug 21, 2017)

This is what I do with my fine fescue.

The second it gets close to hot out my fine fescue patches immediately start to go dormant. At this point I take a rake or even my hand and vigorously agitate it which severely thins it out. KBG can now move in and take over as it pleases. It is a slow process but it takes barely any effort and it works.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Mozart said:


> The Zoysia in my yard (believe its Japonica El Toro) has underground stolons, which are still not rhizomes but this species takes over from below


Zoysia is a beast and I believe since it grows so tight together, it'll take over all other grasses if left alone.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Mozart said:
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> > The Zoysia in my yard (believe its Japonica El Toro) has underground stolons, which are still not rhizomes but this species takes over from below
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Check this out - This stolon popped out of the edging and was literally growing in the air and sending out more stolons to try and make contact with the dirt. It looked dead for a while but it was actually growing like a beast! Hopefully I don't lose the war with Zoysia!

The mother stolon was broken off and shown on the right side of the photo. The plant was so dry (due to growing in the air) that this branch snapped off without much effort, but the vigor despite adverse conditions is impressive!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> There was at least one study I've seen about this. Something like how much KBG is left when established with PRG on a fairway. If I remember right, the answer was not much. Depending on growing conditions, different grass types or weeds can have dominance. The only way to find out what plays nice together in your lawn is to try, which is what you're doing. :thumbup:


I think this is the reference to the study.

https://turf.purdue.edu/tips/2009/08102009_grassmix.html


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Mozart said:


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I'm converting a lawn to zoysia this year. First time for me. Just ignored the zoysia before. I sprayed out the other stuff and with it being only zoysia now, it's actually a beautiful dark green and thin bladed grass. I really like it. It also spreads nicely so it's filling in all the empty spots from the dead weeds and cool grasses. I'm considering swapping more lawns to zoysia. If you don't want it though, yikes. It's scary stuff! We have common bermuda everywhere here and it's a nightmare. I'm considering pylex...


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Mozart said:


> I'm thinking that once the KBG establishes around the perimeter it will gradually fill in the rest of the lawn if the culture and environment favor the KBG. It will be interesting to see what happens.


My experience with fine fescue in my northern mix is that established fine fescue is a *tough* grass, at least in the climate we have in New Hampshire. Fine fescue will *not* be out-competed by Kentucky bluegrass to the point that the fine fescue is eliminated, with the possible exception of full-sun areas.

The problem is that not much *kills* the fine fescue. Unless the fine fescue is actually getting killed by something, the KBG can't eliminate it, even if the fine fescue is doing less well than the KBG.

The fine fescue greens up early in spring (before the Kentucky bluegrass) and grows great all spring.

During July and some of August, due to the heat and sun, portions of the fine fescue will turn brown and go dormant (note - go dormant, not die) and be out-competed by the KBG. However, that really just means that the (brown) fine fescue will remain there in the lawn, at the last spring cut height, and remain there all summer, under the taller green KBG. The brown from the fine fescue will be present there in the lawn all summer.

When cooler fall temperatures return, the fine fescue will come back. It will actually compete on par with (or better than) the KBG in the fall.

Based on some studies done over a decade ago when the Tenacity tolerance rates on FF were being determined, I'm currently doing an experiment of applying a heavy Tenacity dose (8oz/acre) on a FF/KBG mix to sharply reduce the FF in the mix wihout killing the KBG. The Tenacity was just applied on Fri, 8/24, so the outcome of the experiment is still pending. Time will tell...


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Hi @ken-n-nancy, thank you for the reply. I'm actually doing exactly what you proposed albeit at a lower rate (4oz/acre of tenacity). https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=4916&start=20

The hope was that between warm temperatures and tenacity the grass dies out and/or goes into a "white dormancy". To make life even worse for the FF I then did a manual dethatching with a metal rake to clear out space for the KBG (and overseeded).

I think it's working out well given the low application rate and I think upping the dosage to 6-8oz/acre will definitely have an impact. If I remember correctly, the annual maximum for FF is 5 oz/acre so 4oz per acre in a single treatment is probably enough to produce noticeable die off in the FF. Large patches seemed dead to me after a 4oz app


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Mozart said:
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> > I'm thinking that once the KBG establishes around the perimeter it will gradually fill in the rest of the lawn if the culture and environment favor the KBG. It will be interesting to see what happens.
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Please keep us updated on this...even if it takes a new thread. I'm considering doing this on an area in the front after my experience last year. I'm also considering adding Triclopyr to reduce the whitening collateral.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Mozart said:


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My neighbor is battling Zoysia. I gave him some Tenacity last year, and he used it this year a few weeks ago. It turned white, but then recovered according to what he said a few days ago. I have to give him some more Tenacity so he can do it a couple more times again. This is supposed to be a really good time to go after it in my area.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Green said:


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Thanks for the info and please let me know if your neighbor is successful! What application rate will he be using?


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


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In case I can't win the war against Zoysia, how does your Zoysia look in the DMV area? When does it turn brown?

I'm a bit north of you. Worried it will be brown soon but this is my first year so I don't know yet.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Mozart said:


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I was going to give him 4oz/Acre solution. I'm going to tell him that once it turns white, to spray it again, and then go by eye from there, but to try to keep it to 3 and a half more applications so as not to exceed the yearly rate.

Or should I give him 2oz mix and tell him he can spray it up to 7 times if he needs to? Sort of uncharted territory here.

Last year, he had a stolon in his garage in the Summer, and it still had some green on it.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Mozart said:


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For my area, around late october to mid nov and greens up in april. It was always a light green but now I fert in the summer, it is dark green and beautiful! I really like it. Not sure about the brown in the winter but oh well... If you don't want it, spray glyphosate and fluazifop for 3 rounds and seed in the fall. You can light it up if you want to be more selective with mesotrione before spraying it. Good luck though. Will probably be a multiple year endeavor.


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