# PNW First Lawn - Complete Overhaul - Need Some Advice



## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Hey All,

I've been doing a ton of reading and watching videos on youtube while going through my renovation. First time home buyer in the PNW and with that came a yard. I've been in apartments and never had a lawn to care for so i have little to no knowledge other that what i've been reading.

I'm coming to you all to check over my plan and make sure im not missing a step or doing things out of order. What is a thread without pics... They'll be at the bottom which should give you some context to where i'm at with the project so far.

Multiple stages have gotten me to where i am today.
1. Remove tree
2. Remove bushes
3. dig out stump and roots
4. Glyphosate the entire front to kill it all (round up red cap)
5. Neighbor loaned me his rototiller for an evening so i did what i could with it
6. dig about 6-10" down and sift out anything larger than a 1/2" (current state) I'm about halfway through the yard
7. level yard with current dirt
10. roll with water filled roller

Future state

7. Dig trench to load gravel for soon to be brick wall that will go from the stairs to the right corner of the front holding a soon to be garden with small bushes and flowers
8. bring in topsoil
9. Glypho entire space to kill anything that may have made it through the sifter or came in with topsoil
10. spread seed
- Seed is a PRG blend from a local garden store that i've shopped at for all my indoor plants and had a great experience with
11. Cover with peatmoss
12. drop lawn starter fert 2 days after seed goes down
13. consistently keeping the seed damp with above ground irrigation.

Questions:

- Should I be putting a large emphasis on something like a preemergent? If so, when and what should i apply?
- What is the general rule of thumb for volume of water for new grass?
- Should I be raking the seed into the soil or just rolling it is sufficient?
- When should I apply nitrogen to the new lawn?
- When should I cut the new lawn?
- Should i be laying PVC for sprinklers even if im not fully comitted to building a fully irrigation system right now? I see myself doing it eventually.

Pics:


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

I'll keep this as a bit of a rolling journal to gather advice and document the yard as well. Should probably have this shifted to the journal section..

Today I got more of the front sifted and am looking on track to have it done throughout this week.

Here is the starter fert and the seed I plan on using.
I found my home water is regulated to 50 psi by a valve, what is a safe way to measure its max pressure without cranking the valve and putting my interior pipes subject to that pressure as well?


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Got the front 95% sifted. Ended up having to go down about a foot and a half in some spaces because of root systems I found going that deep. Spent today bringing sand + gravel in for the foot of the wall. The front part is complete and the curve + side up to the house are just sat in place for size. Need to get that section dialed in and then pick up the tops and cut them for a nice clean look.

I'm planning to bring topsoil in on Tuesday and lay my seed then. Still no plan for a preemergent but i'm spending the evening looking for what may be available locally i can pick up to help me avoid weeds next season.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

From what i'm seeing i can be using a few different products:
- Prodiamine
- Bensulide 
- Isoxaben
- Mesotrione (Tenacity)
- Bayer Season Long Weed Control


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## Chris1 (Apr 22, 2020)

use Tenacity for this project (see renovation guide) Note that your seed .04% weeds and contains chewings fescue PRG mix. Given scope and all your reno work, you may want to consider and research elite PRG or KBG seed. hogan, unitedseed, seedsuperstore or source locally. Barenbrug seed may be available via local distributor (pro landscape, turf supply. golf supplier)


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris1 said:


> use Tenacity for this project (see renovation guide) Note that your seed .04% weeds and contains chewings fescue PRG mix. Given scope and all your reno work, you may want to consider and research elite PRG or KBG seed. hogan, unitedseed, seedsuperstore or source locally. Barenbrug seed may be available via local distributor (pro landscape, turf supply. golf supplier)


Thanks for the reply Chris. What is the immediate downside to the Chewings Fescue PRG mix? I'm more than willing to consider a different seed, however i'll need to order it as soon as possible to get my lawn started on time.

Thanks for the suggestion to use Tenacity, its something i've considered but unsure if its worth it for the smallish size of my yard.

In looking at the Renovation Guide: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16808&sid=8cfabccf609b7acb8a0233b92e525aee step t minus 2 days says to apply round up - Any idea which type? Pure glypho to kill anything? Or something else?


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## Chris1 (Apr 22, 2020)

Common seed can't compete with elite turf seed. color , disease resistance , look. worth the $

select 41% gly , NO DIQUAT . I used Compare-N-Save Concentrate Grass and Weed Killer, 41-Percent Glyphosate, 32-Ounce.
Purchase separate sprayer for gly: Home depot HDX is bad , Scotts sprayer is pretty good


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## DTTG13 (Apr 14, 2018)

The seed you have is a typical PNW mix. Yes, it would be better if it had 0 weed and 0 crop seed, but as far as the mix of seed, I don't see any issue.

Chewings fescue and creeping red fescue is not a problem here in the PNW, it actually does well here, although it does produce some thatch.

In the past I have always used just perennial ryegrass to seed with, but I have found that adding fine fescue has produced a more dense and drought resistant lawn.

Good luck on your reno!


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

I will say, if your planting fine fescues, dont go trying to mow your lawn at 3 or 4" like the TTTF guys do. It will just become a floppy mess that mats down and is impossible to mow properly without a rake. With PRG and FF you'll be able to cut down to like 1-1.5" ideally to keep it looking clean.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> I will say, if your planting fine fescues, dont go trying to mow your lawn at 3 or 4" like the TTTF guys do. It will just become a floppy mess that mats down and is impossible to mow properly without a rake. With PRG and FF you'll be able to cut down to like 1-1.5" ideally to keep it looking clean.


I'd ideally like to try and keep the lawn pretty short. 1-1.5" with a manual reel mower (that i have yet to purchase) is kind of the goal. I'd like to keep it short enough to play with the dog on (he's 2.5lb so short is best).



DTTG13 said:


> The seed you have is a typical PNW mix. Yes, it would be better if it had 0 weed and 0 crop seed, but as far as the mix of seed, I don't see any issue.
> 
> Chewings fescue and creeping red fescue is not a problem here in the PNW, it actually does well here, although it does produce some thatch.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much and i appreciate the confidence in the blend of seed.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

My delivery of top soil got delayed until Wednesday which gives me one additional day before seed down to finish up some work with the wall and get the main lawn area leveled a bit more.

I'll be heading to lowes to figure out my irrigation system tomorrow and i have a feeling i'll be putting PVC along the driveway, and sidewalk for sprinklers assuming my GPM is enough to support 3 or 4 pop up sprinklers in a series.


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

You can make any irrigation work it's the flow that you worry about. 4 heads with 2.5gpm nozzles is virtually the same as 10 heads with 1 gpm nozzles. Less water output just needs more time running to water properly it's pretty simple really. You have a small lawn just decide if you will tap the water main and do a pro system or if you will use a hose bib. Its easiest to just use poly pipe amd then funny pipe to the heads. The seed is OK, personally I would use elite seed after all that work. I would spend a few bucks, nobody sees anything but the grass, the hard work behind it is an untold story


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

So a few updates on my decisions.

- Topsoil got delivered today, 3 yard is likely not enough but that was the max before i paid 5x the cost of material for delivery... Might have another load of 3 brought in during the end of the week if i get through this and need more.

- My exterior bib is currently regulated to 60 psi. I measured it taking 4 seconds to fill a 52oz container. So napkin math puts me at around 6 GPM.

- At the advice of the person working at Lowes ( who actually knew way too much about lawn irrigation) I went with 3/4" lateral pipes for the irrigation with 1/2" risers up to the sprinklers. I'll have 2 zones with 4 heads each. Pending how my lawn journey goes i'll look to hire out plumbing this system into the main line and add the proper manifolds and controllers to automate things.

-I'm also taking the advice of others and looking at going with Elite seed rather than the blend i posted above. I'm looking to understand what type of lawn i want. Goal is to keep fairly short, 1-1.5" (which i know is not short for some peoples standards) and watching Ryan Knorr videos he does seem to be a large fan of PRG for shorter lawns. The blend that seedsuperstore suggests is a PRG blend based on my zip code as well.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Wanted to get something ordered, so i went with the 10lb of SS9000 Perennial Ryegrass Blend from SeedSuperStore. seed rate of 8lb per 1000sqft should be enough for my front yard with 2 lb left for overseeding any spots that dont take super well.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Got an email this morning that the SS9000 is back ordered and will take a week until it can get shipped out. They offered a custom blend that is similar but i've now asked if its possible to throw some KBG in the mix as i know that is incredibly popular here. something around 70% PRG and 30% KBG should do well from what i've seen.

In terms of my irrigation, im second guessing my plan. I need to plot it on paper rather than lay it out in the yard. I did end up with 8 sprinklers in 2 zones but i think i'll be dropping down to 6 sprinklers in 2 zones so i can keep pressure higher.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris1 said:


> Common seed can't compete with elite turf seed. color , disease resistance , look. worth the $
> 
> select 41% gly , NO DIQUAT . I used Compare-N-Save Concentrate Grass and Weed Killer, 41-Percent Glyphosate, 32-Ounce.
> Purchase separate sprayer for gly: Home depot HDX is bad , Scotts sprayer is pretty good


Hey Chris. Wanted to confirm this product. It seems it's the same as what I sprayed initially to kill the lawn. Is that correct? It's a full glyphosate spray 2 days before putting the seed down? Will this not interfere with the seed growth at all?


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Got the wall finished the other day with a LACK of cutting corners. As you can see in the pics there is a slight gap where the straight edge of the brick meets which is 1" back from the face. I went through 3 different saws before i gave up cutting them at the 9 degrees needed for them to meet perfectly. This is something i do see myself revisiting next summer when i'm not spending all my cash on materials and can get myself a nice and accurately sized saw for the job at hand.

I decided i will be boring a pipe under the stairs so the connectors for the irrigation will be right next to the house rather than in the yard.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Are you planning on dropping seeds this year?


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## Chris1 (Apr 22, 2020)

SOLARSUPLEX said:


> Chris1 said:
> 
> 
> > Common seed can't compete with elite turf seed. color , disease resistance , look. worth the $
> ...


Solar......gly app 2 days prior to seed down is fine


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

g-man said:


> Are you planning on dropping seeds this year?


Hey G. Yes I plan to put seed down the day it shows up in the mail.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris1 said:


> SOLARSUPLEX said:
> 
> 
> > Chris1 said:
> ...


Thanks for confirmation. Appreciate it.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Got the source piping under my stairs today and got a good dry fit test run of zone 1. Coverage is great.

Finish trenching and laying the pipe tomorrow and should be wrapped up aside from seed.

I'll do the glypho treatment 2 days prior to seed down.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Can anybody with a similarly sized renovation <1000sq/ft comment on the water usage to get their PRG growing? I've seen mention of irrigation going for roughly 5 minutes, 4 times a day for the first few weeks while germination is happening. At 6GPM from my hose, split between 2 zones that puts me at 7200 gallons per month. Surprisingly that will only be about $100 in water + sewage fees. I was expecting to be hurting with a $500 water bill but this is extremely manageable.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

That seems about right. It doesn't take a lot of water to keep the area moist. Add in a couple days of rain followed by an overcast day and you may not need to water at all.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

I got 3/4 of zone 1 completed last night. Coverage from just those 3 is really good, so i'm looking forward to getting the last sprinkler in the run done and then trench for the next zone. I probably wont even NEED that other zone to cover the lawn area so its a bit over kill but i'd rather it be thorough.

First frost is expected for middle of October here so i'll likely only get 30 full days of growth. Thankfully i'm not seeding KBG because that wouldn't be nearly enough time. I'm hoping the PRG will sprout quickly and i can toss fert down to boost growth.

@g-man Is there anything else you'd suggest i do to expedite growth as time is not really on my side with this reno?


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## sangheili (Jul 5, 2020)

If you are seeding PRG/KBG, the Tenacity at seed down is great. Did it this year and had zero weeds where I did it.

If you are seeding fine fescue, the Tenacity will stunt it big time at germination, so avoid.

FF does well in our area but as others mentioned it does mat over. I think it does this less when it thickens up, but mine is even laying over at 1.75" (still thin). Jury is out for me on if i'll love it, but the large area I seeded it in is likely way too shaded for PRG anyway. The lower watering and fertilization needs are nice, as well as some cultivars will actively kill weeds.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@SOLARSUPLEX Did you order the flux capacitor?

https://www.oreillyauto.com/flux-500.html


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Seed went down yesterday!

Finished both my irrigation zones and then did the final grade on the area. Dropped the seed with a Scott's 2000 drop spreader on setting 12. Just walked the area until the 2.5lb of seed was gone. The front area measured to just under 340sq/ft and the seed came with a rate of 8lb per 1000sq/ft. Walked around and hand dropped some in spaces the spreader didn't reach super well like against the wall. Then dropped starter fert ontop of it and raked it all in. Rolled it in and then spread 2 bundles of peat moss ontop of the entire thing for moisture. I'm wondering if the peat moss might have been too thick as while I'm watering I feel not much water is making it past the moss and down to the soil in some spots. I raked the larger spots down this morning in hopes to help bypass that.

Once everything settles over this year from all the digging I'd done I do see myself top dressing the entire lawn again with sifted top soil to help remove any high or low spots that form.

Now we wait!


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Seed Down + 3 days:

No sign of germination yet. Light mist of rain over night which helped not have to run the sprinklers this morning. I did swap one of my heads to an adjustable angle rotator to avoid watering the sidewalk where it bends. I'll likely transition the other heads to those as well since i really liked the adjustability aspect. $9 a pop for the heads is a bit insane but that's the cost of doing business.

I'm curious how soon after I see germination would it be appropriate to top dress with sifted top soil? There are some areas i'd love to add a bit more mass and i'll be bringing it in to finish backfilling the garden wall as i get plants to put in there. Would it be feasible to add some sead to that mix too?

Speaking of plants, i'm curious what the consensus is for bush / plant resources. My Fiance wants black mondo grass as the first row of plants behind the wall and then we'll have space for something else behind before we get into crowding issues. The house will get painted a dark blue next spring so looking to compliment the darker aesthetic it has than the beige now.

@GrassOnTheHills I know you recently seeded with straight PRG and ended up having a bit of pythium issue. In hindsight would you have done anything different with applications to avoid that as the germination continues? I'm in a good position to learn from your experience and also struggle as I try to force growth in the colder days.

I've done no apps or product other than the glypho prior to seed down and the starter fert along with the seed. I plan to grab a bag of Urea and drop 2 weeks after I see some germination. The lawn size here measures out to just under 400sq/ft so I can make a bit of product go a long way.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Found a handful of these greenies pop up. Seems my Glypho on the topsoil was not good enough. Plucked them out by hand but i'm sure there will be more.

When is it safe to walk on the area i've seeded?


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Mentioned to a friend that i was going to buy a reel mower, he said he had one that he used a handful of times and i could have. Went and snagged that today. Did the back 'yard' which is in just as sad of a state as the front was and it cut nicely. Needs to be cleaned up but should do just fine in a few weeks when the prg comes in.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

5 Days after seed down and we have Germination!



I plan to toss more starter fert down on the 27th which is slightly shorter than the advised 2 weeks after germination.
With the suggestion of .2lb per 1000sqft and my yard being ~400sqft, i'm looking at .08lb of N. My starter fert is 16% N so that puts me at exactly .5LB of product.

Can anybody confirm my calcs here?


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

Seeing as this has become more of a journal, i've made a new thread in the correct subforum. I'll continue posting updates and asking for feedback there: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23384


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## PNW_TurfNoob (May 29, 2020)

Wow, that's quite a project you have going there! Strong work.

I'm anxious to see how the PRG from SSS works out. I've considered using that as well for a new lawn area I'll be planting next year. I've also been following a youtuber called Pacific Northwest Lawns with some interest. He planted a seed mix from MySoil that is 80% PRG and 20%KBG. I've read that KBG doesn't do that well in western WA, but we'll see how his lawn does. Also, Pacific Topsoils sells a good northern mix that has 10% KBG.

I used the scotts starter fertilizer that has mesotrione (Tenacity) in it and got some good results. It's a much cheaper option than buying a bottle of Tenacity.

I'm in Woodinville and if you are close by we can meet up and I can give you some Tenacity (I'll never use the entire bottle in the 3-5 year shelf life).

Best of luck!


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

PNW_TurfNoob said:


> Wow, that's quite a project you have going there! Strong work.
> 
> I'm anxious to see how the PRG from SSS works out. I've considered using that as well for a new lawn area I'll be planting next year. I've also been following a youtuber called Pacific Northwest Lawns with some interest. He planted a seed mix from MySoil that is 80% PRG and 20%KBG. I've read that KBG doesn't do that well in western WA, but we'll see how his lawn does. Also, Pacific Topsoils sells a good northern mix that has 10% KBG.
> 
> ...


Oh wow, you're super close. I'll DM you my number and we can get together. I'm an exit north just past thrashers corner. I was a bit gungho when i was buying the starter fertilizer and didnt think enough to buy the scotts brand that had mesotrione in it. Tenacity is also what i've been super hesitant to purchase exactly for the reason you mentioned. Thank you! We'll get together.


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