# Almost 2 weeks since PRG overseed but little germination?



## AZ5445 (Apr 14, 2020)

It has been 12 days since I laid Hancock Champion QQ seed in my yard at roughly 12lb/1000sq ft. As you can see, they are just starting to sprout but it still seems that VERY little even germinated.

I scalped my Bermuda (it's starting to grow back a little) and de-thached before laying it. I put down granular 6-20-20 just prior to the seed. I am watering 4x per day at 8 min each watering.

Daytime temps have been high 80s with nighttime in high 50s.

Should I throw another application down or just keep waiting? I'm not pleased at all with these results. Last year I used cheap Home Depot PRG and did much less prep and had way better results. Advice?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Seems like a bit long for germination, but some varieties do take longer.

● What sprinklers do you have? 32 mins a day is astronomically too much imo .... unless you have some super reduced low flow water "saving" sprinklers.


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## AZ5445 (Apr 14, 2020)

Umm the best I can tell you is they provide about 1/2 inch per 20 minutes. Some of the days have been warm, into the 90s. I haven't noticed any pooling or anything. Maybe I will cut back a bit.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

I'm in Phx too. My prg went down 2 weeks ago this morning. My backyard annual went down 12 days ago. I've given both their first cut.

Even though we've had some 90° degree temps, it's a short time at that. As soon as the sun drops we are cooling down and then it takes a while the next day to get going again.

I'm thinking your soil & seed may be too waterlogged. Obviously every yard isn't the same, but by comparison it seems I was watering a lot less. I mostly have basic Home Depot style Orbit brand sprinklers. The night before seeding, I ran a "regular" watering cycle with my starter fert. The next morning I seeded. After that, I did a short 2 min cycle to get the seed wet. From that point on every cycle was only 1 minute. At first I ran a total of 8 cycles on the hour during sunlight hours. I got noticeable germination at day 4. Once I had green getting close to 1", I cut back my watering to 6 cycles of 1 minute at hour and a half intervals during sunlight hours. After my first cuts, only 4 cycles.

And I am now at 2 weeks for the prg and 12 days for the annual.

From here I will be adjusting my watering to once a day, every other day and then gradually increasing my water to a "regular" cycle but only about once a week depending on temps and grass feedback.

As I said, no two yards are the same ... but that is my guesstimate.


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## Slim 1938 (Aug 24, 2019)

I'm having to water my annual often since we still have warm temps. I'm about 20 days since first seeding. I never pulled my dogs off of it and the kids never quit playing either. It's done good given the circumstances .


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## Phxphenom (Aug 19, 2020)

Let me ask you a question. I am also in Phoenix and have also planted Winter Rye. If you take a long screwdriver and push into the ground, is it easy to push at least 6" deep? My lawn certainly is however I am watering much much less than you are.

Thanks,
Marc



AZ5445 said:


> Umm the best I can tell you is they provide about 1/2 inch per 20 minutes. Some of the days have been warm, into the 90s. I haven't noticed any pooling or anything. Maybe I will cut back a bit.


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## AZ5445 (Apr 14, 2020)

Phxphenom said:


> Let me ask you a question. I am also in Phoenix and have also planted Winter Rye. If you take a long screwdriver and push into the ground, is it easy to push at least 6" deep? My lawn certainly is however I am watering much much less than you are.
> 
> Thanks,
> Marc
> ...


Yes, I can get about 6 inches but not much deeper (lots of rocks under my lawn). I still have very little germination. I am throwing some more seed down and lowering my watering schedule


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

AZ5445 said:


> Umm the best I can tell you is they provide about 1/2 inch per 20 minutes. Some of the days have been warm, into the 90s. I haven't noticed any pooling or anything. Maybe I will cut back a bit.


I ran my in-ground system for 5 minutes on the hour, 9am to 5pm. I have 5 Rain Bird brass impacts on spikes in the way back that I ran for 10 minutes every two hours during the same period. It was a lot, no puddling or run-off, but I had no germination issues whatsoever. It's important to keep the seed from drying out until it establishes it's roots. For me, I could have backed off the water a bit on day 5 and probably been OK but I wanted every plant I can get for best results going into winter. Last year I lost a lot of color going into winter once my Bermuda went dormant.

If you didn't see any puddling and didn't suffer any downpours, I doubt too much water is the issue.


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## stogie1020 (Sep 10, 2019)

AZ5445,

Was the seed purchased this year or left-over from a previous year? I have used Champion GQ from Hancock for several years in PHX to overseed and have had good germination within a week.

Did you topdress with anything? Our RH is so low most of the time the top dressing makes it easier for the seed to hold onto water between waterings.

I usually run shorter watering cycles more often through the day, like maybe 3-5 minutes every 2 or 3 hours.


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## AZ5445 (Apr 14, 2020)

stogie1020 said:


> AZ5445,
> 
> Was the seed purchased this year or left-over from a previous year? I have used Champion GQ from Hancock for several years in PHX to overseed and have had good germination within a week.
> 
> ...


I just bought the seed so I assume it is new. I did not too dress, which is one thing I did different this year. Years past I always top dressed and had no issues. Hard to believe it would make that big of a difference but who knows. I threw more seed down yesterday with top dressing this time.

Thanks for the water advice. I think I was definitely doing too much.


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## CLT49er (Jun 19, 2020)

Any chance you put down pre-emergent down in last 3 months?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@CLT49er that is a good question to ask. ... one I don't typically think of since I know not to "pre-em" when I'm doing seed.

I stand by "too much water". 3/4" per day is A LOT of water for much of our soil in the Phoenix area. I used less than 1/4" per day and my soil was (imo) slightly too wet. But, it worked out well and I already have 2 cuts on my rye since planting 17 & 15 days ago.


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

I have the same Champion GQ seed from Hancock and purchased it this year as well. I got great germination this year (within 5 days) I did go light and do need to re-apply. I did have issues in some spots where the seed just did not germinate at all, it was in those areas that were overly saturated with water. I had to back my sprinklers down in the those areas. I reduced my watering to 3 times a day and no more then 4 mins per zone, some only on for 2 minutes.


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## AZ5445 (Apr 14, 2020)

CLT49er said:


> Any chance you put down pre-emergent down in last 3 months?


No I planned the last application so it was just a bit outside of the 3 month mark.


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## robbybobby (May 15, 2017)

Im struggling quite a bit too. I'm on day 11, I have shoots in the backyard in most spots but that is me with a flashlight at night. Front yard is near zero germination. Stater Fert applied with seeding.

Watering 4x daily, every 3 hours or so. 5 min each station, some less. Didn't get great germination last year either.


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## Phxphenom (Aug 19, 2020)

I really think you guys are watering too much. This is my backyard on Day 17 and I am only watering 16 minutes a day, typically 2 minutes at the top of the hour. I have MP Rotator nozzles and the flow rate is about half of conventional sprinklers.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@robbybobby Did you scalp before seeding, what was your hoc? Do you feel you had good seed to soil contact?

I always put out my starter fert and water the night before seeding to give the soil a nice moisture. Then once the seed is down, I give it a light water to get it damp. From then til about 1" it's a short 1 min watering on the hour to keep the seed damp. I start with 8 times (1 min per hour) when sunny and adjust according to ground/seed wetness.


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## robbybobby (May 15, 2017)

PhxHeat said:


> @robbybobby Did you scalp before seeding, what was your hoc? Do you feel you had good seed to soil contact?
> 
> I always put out my starter fert and water the night before seeding to give the soil a nice moisture. Then once the seed is down, I give it a light water to get it damp. From then til about 1" it's a short 1 min watering on the hour to keep the seed damp. I start with 8 times (1 min per hour) when sunny and adjust according to ground/seed wetness.


Scalped. Dethatched. Previous HOC was .700. I think my soil contact was pretty solid. If anything the contact would've been worse in the back (where I'm getting shoots) vs the front.


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## acmccart8 (Jun 30, 2020)

Back to the pre-emergent, when did you apply and how much exactly did you apply?

My understanding with pre-emergents (which is probably wrong) is you get roughly 1 month consistent coverage per pound of product per 1000 sq ft (I think this is true for both granular dithiopyr and prodiamine). So if you put down the normal rate (3 pounds per 1000) you get roughly 3 months coverage. If you put down any heavier it can still be lingering.

Also this is a rough estimate, I make my last pre-emergent (3 pounds per 100) in like May just to make sure it has all dissipated by seeding time in September each year.

To me, that makes way bigger differences than over watering. I only watered once a day my first year and my "scalp" was only 1.25 inches and didn't do any dethatch or aerate and no fert, and still had 75% coverage. The next year I "scalped" again at 1.25 but adjusted the water to 2-3 times a day and only saw 80% coverage. Last year I had the best results (95%) coverage with a lower scalp (0.75 I believe) but no other action taken and watering 2-3 times a day.

This year I went all out and did dethatch, aerate, scalp down to 0.5" roughly, and used starter fert, watering 2-3 times a day but so far only seeing 80% coverage. Probably the difference between PRG and KBG.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@robbybobby ... at 11 days the seed is still in the "window" for germination, but I'd think you'd see more activity than it it sounds like you are. Might be worth an on the hands and knees look at some areas to see how the seed looks. With warmer temps today and the next couple days, maybe try a little more frequent watering at a decreased run time. Just enough water to be damp to slightly wet.


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## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

I put down Champion GQ from Hancock and have seen absolutely zero germination after 8 days. Not a single blade of PRG. This is my 5th season overseeding and usually at this point in the process I'm seeing about 50% coverage, with the other 40-50% popping up on days 8-11. Two weeks ago I overseeded the local baseball field with a different batch/lot of Champion GQ and we had great results by day 6. I don't know if there is a bad batch of seed out there or if something else is going on. Right now I'm testing the seed from my yard (origin MN) and the seed from the different lot I used at the baseball field to see if I get different results in some plastic bowls of clean Scotts Turf Builder Lawnsoil.

Just in case anyone is wondering about my process for overseeding my hybrid Bermuda normally maintained at 1/2: 1) Sun Joe detatcher run in two directions on deepest setting; 2) raked up thatch, 3) lowered HOC to 3/8 and mowed, 4) spread seed at 16 lbs per 1K, 5) raked in with leveling rake, 5) watered 6x a day, 3 minutes per station. Soil is currently damp but not water logged. Good seed to soil contact. Last Prodiamine application was January 2021, .36 oz per 1K sf. SoCal temperatures have been mostly 70's during the day and high 50's at night. Was planning to put down fertilizer at day 14 after germination.


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

jim7white said:


> I put down Champion GQ from Hancock and have seen absolutely zero germination after 8 days. Not a single blade of PRG. This is my 5th season overseeding and usually at this point in the process I'm seeing about 50% coverage, with the other 40-50% popping up on days 8-11. Two weeks ago I overseeded the local baseball field with a different batch/lot of Champion GQ and we had great results by day 6. I don't know if there is a bad batch of seed out there or if something else is going on. Right now I'm testing the seed from my yard (origin MN) and the seed from the different lot I used at the baseball field to see if I get different results in some plastic bowls of clean Scotts Turf Builder Lawnsoil.
> 
> Just in case anyone is wondering about my process for overseeding my hybrid Bermuda normally maintained at 1/2: 1) Sun Joe detatcher run in two directions on deepest setting; 2) raked up thatch, 3) lowered HOC to 3/8 and mowed, 4) spread seed at 16 lbs per 1K, 5) raked in with leveling rake, 5) watered 6x a day, 3 minutes per station. Soil is currently damp but not water logged. Good seed to soil contact. Last Prodiamine application was January 2021, .36 oz per 1K sf. SoCal temperatures have been mostly 70's during the day and high 50's at night. Was planning to put down fertilizer at day 14 after germination.


WOW ! you did the exact same prep as I did for the most part ! I put down the exact same seed and got germination in 6 days, I also used Scotts starter fert when I laid the seed down, oh and I also experimented with using peat moss in the front vs none in the back. No difference at all. Your temps and watering seem right on the money. If I had to guess ? It must be the seed? because the only other thing it could be is Prodiamine ? or some other pre-emergent that's preventing it from germination ?


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## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

Came home from work last night and saw the start of germination. The missing step was obviously complaining on the internet. It's wild how germination times can fluctuate with other variables being fairly constant.


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## stogie1020 (Sep 10, 2019)

What ratio of NPK did your complaint have? I may need to try it next year...


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## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

Update on my overseed. Seed test came back with both batches normal. Just took longer to germinate this year for whatever reason.


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## robbybobby (May 15, 2017)

jim7white said:


> Update on my overseed. Seed test came back with both batches normal. Just took longer to germinate this year for whatever reason.


Looks pretty dense. How much seed did you put down per K?

Mine came in OK, not great.


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## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

14 lbs of seed per 1K sf


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