# HELP! Overwhelmed & unsure



## Shangrala (Feb 6, 2018)

This is my first post here & I'm hoping that I find some answers. There is a LOT going on in my yard - some I'm fairly certain about, while most I'm at a complete loss. So, please bear with me as this might be long.

I moved to this place early last spring while everything was a pretty green & seemingly healthy. I believe this yard (front & back) primarily has, what I later discovered to be an Saint Augustine lawn, which is distressed. I wasn't sure, so I researched online, therefore it's still a best guess at what type of lawn (I'll do my best to gather pics & post soon). 
Several established fruit trees are planted throughout the lawn & along the outer border of the lawn, none have been attended to in years - severely overgrown, diseased &/or dying, etc. In fact, it seems that the entire yard has been neglected for years, with the exception of the lawn being attended to by the gardeners once a week (but even their attendance was a quick, basic mow, blow & bolt). 
I initially guessed that the back yard lot size was about 2000+ sq ft. But I discovered the "FindLotSize" site (from someone's post on this forum) & found that the backyard is about 3300 sq.ft.

As summer eased in, I noticed that there were burclover popping out their notorious burs EVERYWHERE in the back. It became a huge issue because my mini poodles were like a magnet to them, which became very problematic. So, I began the tedious chore of pulling out the burclover & gathering up as much of the bur as I could. It took me almost the entire summer. That wasn't so much the issue, really. It was finding that I couldn't get to the burclover's roots without pulling the lawn out, too, which at that time I thought was crabgrass - so, I was tugging it all out. By the time I was done, it was a disaster. 
Before I began my wrath upon the lawn, it had at least a 3" thick thatch - VERY spongy when walking on it & watering seemed to take forever. And when I began my attack on the bur, I noticed that there was beautiful Kentucky blue trying to work its way out from beneath the canopy of Augustine, which I made a clearing for as I pulled bur.

Needless to say, by the time I was finished, I had a yard with patches of Kentucky Blue, with rye or fescue? - (still not sure which is which, really) patches and bits of Augustine(?) remaining....but no burclover!! 
It seemed that by clearing the Augustine, the KB & other began to quickly return - as if being choked out by their aggressor. There is also Dichondra patches growing in patches.

After all the damage was done to the lawn, I patted myself on the back for winning that battle over the burclover - Thinking, "Not much of a lawn, but no clover, either = success". NOT! I may have won that battle, but lost the war  
We had a wet winter this year (actually it was normal, but compared to recent drought years, it was wet). And with the rain came various weeds sprouting up with every raindrop, filling in all the bare spots. Before, there was a random burclover plant to be pulled. Now, those bare spots are completely covered in a very short, lush thick mat of burclover along with a soft, very bright green, fast-growing grass weed (not sure of name, will get pics) & the tenacious Carolina Geranium (plus a couple other types of weeds that I'm presently attempting to identify).

On top of all of that, there are ongoing issues with fungus mold from excessive moisture on the bottom of grass stems in the front yard (again, thick thatch problem that I haven't attended to yet), cutworm issues, 21 severely-deprived fruit trees (that amazingly still bear fruit) that require serious pruning & fertilizing, complete soil amendment requirement throughout the yard (hard, alkaline clay soil).

I realize that most would probably scrap the entire yard & start over...and sometimes I wish for a torch or a stick or two of dynamite, but I don't have the resources to start from scratch & I'm on my own on this, anyway - that's a lot of work for this 92 lb 59 year old 
What I do have in abundance is time & patience with a minimal budget to combat this. I don't use chemical pesticides, but I just might have to resort to something that delivers a stronger kick than organic products this initial time. No glyphosate, though! 100% against that stuff!

I'll do what I can to add photos of everything asap so to provide you something to go by.

I thank you in advance for not only taking the time to read through this, but to offer any advice.

- Shangrala


Image #1 Closeup of Initial grass in yard (Saint Augustine?) returns back via underground


#2 Dichondra patch with soft, bright green grass weed(?)


#3 Distance shot of yard condition/various grasses. What kind?


#4 Tall fescue(?) Slow-growing & thin in shaded area of yard. Need reseeding/fertilizing.


#5 Closeup of burclover (same as # 8)


#6 (as #3)


#7 Different types of grass mixed with grass weed(?)


#8 Burclover


#9 Same as 7


#10 Closeup of Augustine on right/KBG (?) on left


#11 Same as 7


#12 weed(?)


#13 Same as 1


#14 Same as 11


#15 KBG on left, bright green grass weed(?) on right


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm kind of on the fence about leaving this thread here in the warm season forum, or moving it over to the cool season subforum. Is your ultimate goal having St. Aug or KBG/rye/fescue?


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## Shangrala (Feb 6, 2018)

I know what you mean...I was stumped on exactly where to post this as it contains so many issues that didn't fit in any specific sub-forum. I figured that because the yard started out with what I think was a warm season lawn, I'd start there? Feel free to place this wherever you feel it should be.
To answer your question, ultimate goal depends on the outcome of support/advice from those experienced in this. If most advise to stick with the warm (if that's what it is), & let it grow back, then so be it.
Personally, I'd like to try to go with KBG..maybe a combo of cool season grasses in back yard (again, depending on experienced advice) & stay with warm in front (since I didn't rip that apart). So, I'm split on this.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

How about the best of both worlds - I moved it to cool season, but left a shadow topic in place. This should get your questions some more traffic from the cool season guys. :thumbup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What type of grass do most houses have around your area?

With that mount of clover, your will need Weed B Gon CCO. Once you deal with the clover, you will need to apply some seeds so the bare areas dont continue to grow more clover on them. A PreM would prevent weeds from coming back thus breaking the cycle, but PreM cannot be used in areas you want seeds to grow.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Finding what grass type you should have/want to have in your location is the first step for sure I would say. After that you can look into killing weeds reseeding. At some point I think your going to have to use glyphosate to kill the unwanted grass type KBG or St Augustine though.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Finding what grass type you should have/want to have in your location is the first step for sure I would say. After that you can look into killing weeds reseeding. At some point I think your going to have to use glyphosate to kill the unwanted grass type KBG or St Augustine though.


This.

Put the right plant in the right place.

Although not in line with your requirements, my vote is smoke it all with glyphosate and replace with zoysia or bermuda, depending on the amount of shade.

As noted above, you will need to determine what type of lawn you're looking to have. See what type of turfgrass seems to thrive in your area and the amount of sunlight and shade on to your property compared to the lawns that are flourishing. Best of luck.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> > Finding what grass type you should have/want to have in your location is the first step for sure I would say. After that you can look into killing weeds reseeding. At some point I think your going to have to use glyphosate to kill the unwanted grass type KBG or St Augustine though.
> ...


Another vote for gly.

Call your local university extension office and ask them what grass type would be best for your area.


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## Shangrala (Feb 6, 2018)

@ g-man: I'm guessing that the common grass that most homes in this area have is St Augustine (keep in mind that I'm not even sure if I'm correct in my guesses of what grass types that I even have, so I could be wrong). Neighbor on my left has the same as I do - St Augustine(?). The lawn (& the few patches in back) are incredibly spongy when walked on & has about 4" between the top & soil with white mold at soil level- suspect it's needing dethatching? Neighbor on right has a mix of cool season grasses that looks similar to the mix I posted in pics - again, unsure of what is growing back there..could be a grass weed, or a mix of cool season...I'm completely new to lawn care. 
I would like cool season in the back, perhaps a mix of grasses with KBG as primary since there is already a great amount of it already growing in a good portion of the yard. 
After applying Weed B Gone & if the clover issue does subside, I still need to amend the soil as it is extremely alkaline. Any suggestions on what kind of amendment to use & when?

@SnowBob: As an alternative to using glyphosate, (I'll try anything else first), what are the odds of successfully tilling up the remaining few patches of St Augustine & the surrounding areas & then amending the soil for planting? Is that a possibility? And as a last resort, if I have no other choice but to use glyphosate, how long will it take until I can plant?

If all fails in the plan to grow KBG, then I'm contemplating on going with either a miniclover or dichondra ground cover. I've read great reviews on them as an alternative for lawns.

Thanks for your replies.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Hi Shangrala,

I know you're dead set against glyphosate, but I truly believe with the current state of your yard, it is actually the least impactful to just kill everything and start clean.

Compare one or two applications of glyphosate to multiple applications of other less effective weed controls and weigh which you feel is worse.

As for seeding, I seeded 3 days after a blanket app of glyphosate. I know some here have seeded same day without issue. It only kills plants that have emergent leaves.

I just checked, and AT&T park currently uses Tifway 419 Bermuda, but have used Kentucky Blue in the past, so I would assume either is a good choice. Professional turf managers know their stuff. 

Good luck, whatever you choose, and welcome!


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

+1 for the vote to smoke it with glyphosate, and start over. *You will save yourself a LOT of money on chemicals, and get the desired result that you want.* It's always a good thing to start with a clean slate, rather than having to battle with weeds all summer long. When your yard is more than 50% "crap", I'd totally lean toward a renovation. Had I known then what I know now (after having started a renovation in August last year) I would have ABSOLUTELY started in the Spring... I've had to look at all this unsightly weeds that I didn't get with my PreE last fall, because I went with a "hands-off" approach until a week or two from now. Then the assault begins... MUAHAHAHAAA

Oh and FWIW, Pic #1 looks like crabgrass, not St.Aug.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

On the question of tilling the yard, a lot of times neighbors or people you might know will say tilling is a good option to be able to start over. The thing is it's probably one of the worst things you can do. Not only are you inviting weed seeds to come have a party in your lawn but you'll also spend years trying to level back all the unevenness from the till.

It's your choice as to whether you want to use gly and if you don't want to that's a choice you'll have to make but really I think it might be the best/only choice for your yard.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Oh and FWIW, Pic #1 looks like crabgrass, not St.Aug.


Yeah I was looking at the photo too and didn't think it was St Aug. It's hard to tell, but are the blade tips pointy in photo #1 or are they rounded? I was wondering if it was something like carpet grass.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Just throwing my $0.02 in.

San fran is Zone 10a, but that only tells us how cold your winters get, not how warm your summers get. And San Fran doesn't really get that warm. Hitting 80 degrees is the exception in summer, not the norm. Normals for your area, are 60-70 daytime highs. While you could get a warm season grass to survive, it won't thrive (with the exception of a few hardy Bermuda's). Now a cool season grass (Kentucky Blue, Fesue, Per. Rye) could THRIVE in that climate (with proper watering). Plus if you take into account the shade the fruit trees give off, i just think cool season is the way to go.

That being said, i don't really see any St. Augustine in your pictures. Also you state that the grass returns from underground (rhizomatic) and St. Augustine lacks rhizome. It spreads via stolons (runners on the surface) and i don't see any of those. I do see KBG (Pic 14) , Poa Annua (annual Bluegrass[Pic 15 Light grassy weed]) and the hairy rhizomatic grass (but can't identify from the picture #1).


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I'm familiar with the Bay Area in fact my brother lives in the Twin Peaks/ Midtown Terrace Neighborhood. All the wineries in Sonoma and Napa use KBG. I can't imagine any warm season turf thriving there. Just not enough optimal GDD available. I would assume AT&T park uses supplemental lighting (grow lamps) to keep the Bermuda alive.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

LawnNerd said:


> Just throwing my $0.02 in.
> 
> San fran is Zone 10a, but that only tells us how cold your winters get, not how warm your summers get. And San Fran doesn't really get that warm. Hitting 80 degrees is the exception in summer, not the norm. Normals for your area, are 60-70 daytime highs. While you could get a warm season grass to survive, it won't thrive (with the exception of a few hardy Bermuda's). Now a cool season grass (Kentucky Blue, Fesue, Per. Rye) could THRIVE in that climate (with proper watering). Plus if you take into account the shade the fruit trees give off, i just think cool season is the way to go.
> 
> That being said, i don't really see any St. Augustine in your pictures. Also you state that the grass returns from underground (rhizomatic) and St. Augustine lacks rhizome. It spreads via stolons (runners on the surface) and i don't see any of those. I do see KBG (Pic 14) , Poa Annua (annual Bluegrass[Pic 15 Light grassy weed]) and the hairy rhizomatic grass (but can't identify from the picture #1).


Anyone know the temp range requirement for zoysia? I just figured warm season would be required to handle irregular rain/drought unless irrigation is involved.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> > Just throwing my $0.02 in.
> ...


That depends on which species Japonica, Matrella, or Pacifica?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

wardconnor said:


> Call your local university extension office and ask them what grass type would be best for your area.


^^^This^^^

Call earlier in the day and, chances are better than not your gonna make a contact(s) that'll benefit you way beyond your current situation!

Best o' Success ... PROTECT THE POODLES!!!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

high leverage said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > LawnNerd said:
> ...


All the above. I am outside my experience on all the zoysia cultivars.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I don't have specific temps but as far as cold hardiness it goes Japonica>Matrella>Pacifica.

Japonica is native to Japan and Korea. Matrella is native in both temperate and tropical areas. Pacifica is native to the tropical pacific islands.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

In photo 4, I see mainly what appears to be KBG.


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## Shangrala (Feb 6, 2018)

Thank you all for your replies & advice. I'll try to answer all the q's. If I missed any, my apologies...I'm struggling to post properly as it already is - I just spent 20 minutes typing out a response to all of you, addressing the questions & even adding a few more pics in hopes of providing better clarity. And wouldn't you know it, as soon as I clicked "submit", I was immediately reminded that I have to first log in to post a reply. HA! All that text GONE! Guess I forgot to close the screen out last night & when I opened my laptop, it still showed, but I wasn't aware that I was automatically logged out. Love how life tosses these random minute lessons to learn from...(the challenge now is to remember it so not to repeat..hehehe).

As I mentioned in my OP, whatever the majority rules is what I'll go by. And, despite my reluctance, glyphosate it is. It's just going to be a challenge for me to do a complete renovation because, like I mentioned before, I'm on my own on this & I'm no spring chick anymore. Although I've always pulled more than my own weight, it just might be starting to work against me - I was diagnosed with an indirect inguinal hernia yesterday. (I never heard of a woman having a hernia. Doctor said he's only seen one other case in his 42 years of practice. Go figure!). Doc pushed it back in & with patience & pacing myself (difficult for me), it shouldn't create further issues. So, that sort of slows things down for me. 
Is it feasible to do the yard in sections? If so, what size & timing intervals? I was thinking that maybe I can throw together some kind of cover made from framed hardware cloth, or something similar, to slightly raise it above ground during germination to keep out birds (lots of different bird species visit my yard - bird sanctuary adjacent to my yard) & pesky squirrels (despite that I spoil them with huge variety of nuts & seeds), & a temp fence surrounding that made of windscreen, or similar, to keep pets out of that? < that sounds like a bigger project than reseeding...haha.

@LawnNerd : I"m not in the city of San Francisco, but fairly close (just thought I'd put that in profile for easier assimilation). I'm in East Bay...in between Oakland & San Jose. Average daily summer temps here get between 80-95, beginning fairly early in Spring actually, with a few hot spells of 100's, but those are seldom. Begins to cool again in late Sept-early Oct.
Yes, the fruit trees give off a great deal of shade, which the Augustine/Carpet/? struggle under (thinned areas). I'm hoping that since I already pruned some of the trees that have been neglected for over a decade or more, & intend on pruning the rest of them when time permits, that the yard will dry out some & create better growing conditions. Winter time = NO sun in the north of the yard for a good 3+ months. That + clay soil + shade from trees + rain + short days = Saturated soil that doesn't dry & moss & fungus appear throughout that area (surprises me that any lawn grows).

@SNOWBOB11 : Honestly, tilling sounded like one enormous task that I really wasn't up for (& was hoping someone would voice against it). And what you said makes great sense regarding unevenness. How, then, would I treat the existing unevenness prior to planting? I have to amend the majority of the soil in the entire yard anyway, so do I incorporate a topsoil to the mix to level off the low spots? (Looks like I have more research to do).

@Movingshrub : Grass tips are pointy. And since you mentioned carpet grass, I researched images of both St Aug & carpet, and to be honest, I struggle distinguishing the two apart. So, for all I know, I could be battling carpet grass.

I'm adding 2 more pics of lawn from back & two of front for comparison (since they're both the same).

#16 Back yard. Smaller runner - index fingertip is at point where runner sprouts. 


#17 Back yard. Long stolon(?)


#18 Front yard. Closeup blade tip. Flat & folded, pointy ends


#19 Front yard. Pulled back edge along mowstrip.


I've taken several soil samples throughout the yard & will make some tests today to get a basic idea of the soil conditions I'm working with. Hopefully, that'll at least provide me the info of what to amend with.

Thanks again for all your help, everyone. I'll let you know the progress


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Shangrala said:


> As I mentioned in my OP, whatever the majority rules is what I'll go by. And, despite my reluctance, glyphosate it is.


I hope you don't feel pressured into doing something you don't want to do. All of us have given our "what would I do" opinions, but it's entirely up to you, and what you want.

If you choose not to use glyphosate, everyone will still happily help you.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Kikuyu?http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PMG/PESTNOTES/pn7458.html


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Sinclair said:


> Shangrala said:
> 
> 
> > As I mentioned in my OP, whatever the majority rules is what I'll go by. And, despite my reluctance, glyphosate it is.
> ...


Exactly.

I am a 34 year old male that officiates professional soccer matches in my free time, so by no means do I expect you to sign up physically for what I may be willing to do.

I think you could have success doing it in sections, so long as the sections are separated in some capacity. As an example the entire front yard and then the entire back yard.

I would definitely reach out to your local extension office for advice. Furthermore, if you don't have enough light, you may be hard pressed to find any turfgrass that going to work. Ground cover might a consideration.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

What about nuking it and doing some minor leveling that you are capable of with your time and then laying sod? Its not the purest way but it gets the job done and it looks nice. I am not sure of your budget. You could hire some strapling young bucks to lay it for you.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@Shangrala , I've been watching this thread develop. Can you clarify your original opposition to glyphosate? Do you want to avoid it for environmental reasons, or are you just wanting to avoid starting from scratch? If the latter, you could always use glyphosate in small sections, as some have suggested.
Also, I feel obligated to make it clear that seeding requires some heavy-ish lifting (bags of grass seed, peat moss, bags of fertilizer)

Can anyone explain why glyphosate is a better option than, say, an herbicide cocktail from a big box? In my experience, 2-3 applications are required for elimination of weeds, regardless of what is used for killing. I suppose that glyphosate has a wider kill range (pretty much everything green), but that is the only primary difference that I can identify.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Actually, glyphosate isn't the only option. One could kill off almost everything by solarizarion and it would take about the same amount of total time as multiple applications of glyphosate.

Otherwise, there are a few other non selective herbicide, or some combo of selective herbicides could be used, likely at greater cost.


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## Shangrala (Feb 6, 2018)

@social port The primary reason I'm against using glyphosate is because it's carcinogenic. I have not only my pets who spend most of their time in the back, but the wildlife that frequent it, as well. I'll be fair in saying that I've never used it, therefore I'm not knowledgeable about exposures, etc, aside from the fact that it's poison. It's just the idea of the animals having such close contact to areas that have been covered in that stuff that bothers me most. But, I can control when my pets go out, so if I were to apply the stuff, I can keep them indoors until it's safe again. The wildlife, though, I can't control.

I truly appreciate you all for taking the time to reply. Once I heal from treatment of this hernia, I'll combat the yard with both guns blazing. Until then, the biggest battle I have to contend with is to keep myself from doing any yard work that requires strenuous activity = most of it.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

@Movingshrub mentioned above about solarization.

If you can drag out some tarps and stake them down for a few weeks, you can kill everything without any chemicals.

All you need is hot sun and patience.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

+1, if a non-selective herbicide is off the table, I think solarization is probably your best bet.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Ware said:


> +1, if a non-selective herbicide is off the table, I think solarization is probably your best bet.


Concur. No herbicide cost. No time spent spraying. So long as it's hot enough, you should expect a solid kill.


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