# Humic 12 vs Humic DG



## CPA Nerd

Is my math and logic correct here?

5 gallons of N-Ext Humic 12 is $100 and contains 12% humic acid. If a gallon weighs 10 pounds (just an assumption and I know a gallon of water is 8 pounds so I'm giving them a bit extra), that's 6 pounds of humic acid, or $16.67 per pound of humic acid.

A 40 pound bag of Anderson's Humic DG granular is $65 and contains 70% humic acid. That's 28 pounds, or $2.32 per pound of humic acid.

Is my comparison apples to apples?

If the rate of Humic 12 is 6 fl oz per 1k, that's just 0.056 pounds of humic acid per 1k if my math is right and logical.

The Anderson's product says to use 2 pounds of product per 1k, which is 1.4 pounds of humic acid per 1k, which is 25x the amount that the N-Ext product recommends.

I am an accountant, not a scientist or mathematician. Perhaps something is wrong with my math or I am making assumptions about these products that are not true.

If I am right (a big assumption), isn't the N-Ext product far more expensive, not to mention more labor intensive and time consuming to apply?


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## Ridgerunner

No need to guess, per their label net wt. is 44.5 lbs: https://www.greenecountyfert.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/N-Ext-Humic12%E2%84%A2-label-1-2pgs.pdf


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## CPA Nerd

Thanks. So that makes it $18.72 per pound.

Unless I am missing something, I can't imagine using liquid over granular. And price aside, you would need 26 gallons of Humic 12 to get the amount of humic acid in one 40 pound bag.

Somebody tell me what I'm missing.


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## The Anti-Rebel

Humic 12 turns your finger brown? :dunno:


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## Jconnelly6b

I think this is why most of us that purchased the N-ext line of products last year when they hit the market have not bought them again this year.

I was happy to clear my shelf of all those jugs.


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## CPA Nerd

Jconnelly6b said:


> I think this is why most of us that purchased the N-ext line of products last year when they get the market have not bought them again this year.
> 
> I was happy to clear my shelf of all those jugs.


Do you think they worked at all for you?

What are you using now, if anything, in addition to fertilizers?


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## Naidu

What did you replace RGS with? I mainly still use RGS, De-Thatch, and Microgreen.


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## Jkmaddox88

I've been thinking about buying the gcf products as well and was wondering if they're worth the cost. What would be some comparable/less expensive replacements?


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## Jconnelly6b

Not sure I actively tried to "replace" any of the products because honestly I don't think they did much.

I have continued to use Jonathan Green Love Your Soil which is combo humic + calcium + molasses. I also bought a bunch of Carbon X so have am still getting some RGS there.

I think there is no replacement for maintaining sole macros/micros and good cultural practices. Soil improves over time through root cycling and that's good enough for me.

Just my opinion, certainly not intending to talk anyone out of GCF products.


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## All Day NPK

This video shows the difference: https://youtu.be/IXBQQR9WVJI


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## Babaganoosh

All Day NPK said:


> This video shows the difference:


You are aware of the bias there right? Sort of like in infomercial where they sell something like a "magic can opener" and have actors struggle to use a normal can opener.


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## CPA Nerd

I like the part where he shows that the humic doesn't go through a paper towel, as if that's somehow comparable to soil.


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## drewwitt

The green county stuff worked well for me. Brought my struggling lawn back to life. I'm on my second round of jugs, fwiw.

If you have an A- yard it's not going to push it over the edge. If your yard is C- and below, I think they're helpful. As always, knowing what's in your existing soil, making the appropriate amendments, and good cultural practices are king.


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## Babameca

Naidu said:


> What did you replace RGS with? I mainly still use RGS, De-Thatch, and Microgreen.


RGS is Humic plus Kelp. All can be found granular or powder soluble. Microgreen is a liquid fertilizer period. DeThach invented long, long time ago is readily available at golf course suppliers. I am buying a product Thatch-X...rings any bells? :shock:
https://www.ojcompagnie.com/sites/default/files/fichiers/Thatch-X%20Label.pdf
And it is organic...


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## Killsocket

I know I am backing off some of the N-Ext products. Moving to FeATURE from MicroGreene/Greene Effect and dropping Humic12 entirely for reasons above. Still like the 18-0-1 and RGS (Humic, Kelp, Fulvic - I think), which likely will be the only two products I continue to buy.


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## bmitch05

My lawn was complete garbage when I bought the house and I can say that the GCF products have certainly helped the cause. Out of curiosity how many sqft will a 40lb bag of Humic DG cover? I have roughly 6k sqft of turf and a single gallon of H12 will last me all season.

I also tried the 700 Green Punch and 002 Micro Green in the heat of the summer and the lawn held its own pretty well. I should probably add that I am also irrigated. GCF products aren't all bad if they work well for you situation.

What are some alternatives? I am certainly sold on the benefits of soil amendments after giving the GCF products a try this year.


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## Guest

I bought two jugs this year of "Ultramate", an Andersons product with 3% potassium, 1% sulfur, and 12% humic acid. Subjectively, seems to help with recovery a little bit. I am tired of putting down liquid products and would prefer a granular product for convenience, and for that reason will probably buy a bag of Humic DG next year.

I have heard that one "proposed benefit" of the liquid products is foliar absorption. I really just want to go all granular and stick to focusing basics of watering, mowing, fertilizing and annual overseeding. The main products that interest me from GCF would be Carbon X or 8-1-8.


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## greengrass

bmitch05 said:


> My lawn was complete garbage when I bought the house and I can say that the GCF products have certainly helped the cause. Out of curiosity how many sqft will a 40lb bag of Humic DG cover? I have roughly 6k sqft of turf and a single gallon of H12 will last me all season.
> 
> I also tried the 700 Green Punch and 002 Micro Green in the heat of the summer and the lawn held its own pretty well. I should probably add that I am also irrigated. GCF products aren't all bad if they work well for you situation.
> 
> What are some alternatives? I am certainly sold on the benefits of soil amendments after giving the GCF products a try this year.


For Humic DG - 1lb/1000 low rate, 2lb/1000 med rate, 4lb/1000 high rate. I've used Humic DG past year and a half. The patented dispersion actually works too, the granules break down to tiny ones after contact with water. I've stayed away from the Next stuff for the same conclusion as OP.


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## ksturfguy

macdawg said:


> I bought two jugs this year of "Ultramate", an Andersons product with 3% potassium, 1% sulfur, and 12% humic acid. Subjectively, seems to help with recovery a little bit. I am tired of putting down liquid products and would prefer a granular product for convenience, and for that reason will probably buy a bag of Humic DG next year.
> 
> I have heard that one "proposed benefit" of the liquid products is foliar absorption. I really just want to go all granular and stick to focusing basics of watering, mowing, fertilizing and annual overseeding. The main products that interest me from GCF would be Carbon X or 8-1-8.


Technically Carbon X and 8-1-8 arent grom GCF. Carbon Eart Fert makes those products but they do have a good relationship with GCF.


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## Powhatan

I'm not knocking the Andersons product, just providing information.

The *70% humic acid* number in Andersons Humic DG may be somewhat misleading when comparing a humic acid % content between various humic products. Andersons uses the A & L Western Method to test humic acid content.

_"The A&L Western method is a qualitative analysis, designed to report all of the alkaline-soluble humic materials in a sample. It consistently reports a higher percentage of "humic acid" than the CDFA method. … Therefore, the A&L Western method more than likely includes non-humic materials as well as humic substances."_

http://maxgreenproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/HumicSubstancesDr.Mayhew.pdf

I haven't found what humic acid testing method Green County Fert uses.


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## CPA Nerd

Powhatan said:


> I'm not knocking the Andersons product, just providing information.
> 
> The *70% humic acid* number in Andersons Humic DG may be somewhat misleading when comparing a humic acid % content between various humic products. Andersons uses the A & L Western Method to test humic acid content.
> 
> _"The A&L Western method is a qualitative analysis, designed to report all of the alkaline-soluble humic materials in a sample. It consistently reports a higher percentage of "humic acid" than the CDFA method. … Therefore, the A&L Western method more than likely includes non-humic materials as well as humic substances."_
> 
> http://maxgreenproducts.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/HumicSubstancesDr.Mayhew.pdf
> 
> I haven't found what humic acid testing method Green County Fert uses.


Thanks for posting. I was wondering about that. I believe I may have an apples to oranges comparison when comparing the humic products. I was thinking about liquid fertilizers.

Scotts liquid 29-0-3 is 32 fl oz and covers 2,000 square feet.
Scotts granular 32-0-4 is 12.5 lbs and covers 5,000 square feet.

Let's just assume the N-P-K analysis is the same (close enough). That means that you would need 20 pounds of granular to equal the coverage of one gallon of liquid.

A big assumption here: Using the same logic for the humic products, that means that 40 lbs of granular equals 2 gallons of liquid.

Per 20 lbs granular/1 gallon liquid, the granular is around $33 and the liquid is $25. That means that perhaps the liquid isn't a rip off as I originally suspected it was and I may have not been comparing apples to apples.

There are a lot of variables here, obviously, and I am not intending to make any claims as fact.


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## ksturfguy

Yeah I would say it's definitely not an apples to apples comparison. I think both products are good and really just depends if you want to use granular or liquid. Which one is actually best who knows.


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## adgattoni

You're basically getting to the topic discussed in this thread: what works better, liquid or granular humic acid? I don't think there was really any solid consensus in that thread.

FWIW: I've been testing granular vs. liquid vs. powdered humic products in my lawn all year. No real difference between the different test plots, and no real difference between the test plots and the control either (the rest of my lawn).

I will be continuing these tests through the end of next year before I decide to stop. My main interest at this point is: does humic acid positively impact a) root growth or b) soil CEC. If I don't see positive results in those categories, I'll probably stop using humic acid products altogether.


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## KoopHawk

How long is Humic Acid available after application? IE how often does it need to be applied?


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## chrishinckle

KoopHawk said:


> How long is Humic Acid available after application? IE how often does it need to be applied?


I personally use N-ext Humic and I run 3oz/1k every 4 weeks


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## thegrassfactor

macdawg said:


> I bought two jugs this year of "Ultramate", an Andersons product with 3% potassium, 1% sulfur, and 12% humic acid. Subjectively, seems to help with recovery a little bit. I am tired of putting down liquid products and would prefer a granular product for convenience, and for that reason will probably buy a bag of Humic DG next year.
> 
> I have heard that one "proposed benefit" of the liquid products is foliar absorption. I really just want to go all granular and stick to focusing basics of watering, mowing, fertilizing and annual overseeding. The main products that interest me from GCF would be Carbon X or 8-1-8.


Hate to interrupt, but both of those granular products were designed and manufactured by Carbon Earth.

We do not use RGS, as we source our humic substances from both North Dakota as well as Canada. Our kelp also comes from Canada. We purchase either as soluble powders and reconstitute it, or as is the case with Xstart, we purchase liquid fulvic.


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## dmouw

thegrassfactor said:


> macdawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought two jugs this year of "Ultramate", an Andersons product with 3% potassium, 1% sulfur, and 12% humic acid. Subjectively, seems to help with recovery a little bit. I am tired of putting down liquid products and would prefer a granular product for convenience, and for that reason will probably buy a bag of Humic DG next year.
> 
> I have heard that one "proposed benefit" of the liquid products is foliar absorption. I really just want to go all granular and stick to focusing basics of watering, mowing, fertilizing and annual overseeding. The main products that interest me from GCF would be Carbon X or 8-1-8.
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to interrupt, but both of those granular products were designed and manufactured by Carbon Earth.
> 
> We do not use RGS, as we source our humic substances from both North Dakota as well as Canada. Our kelp also comes from Canada. We purchase either as soluble powders and reconstitute it, or as is the case with Xstart, we purchase liquid fulvic.
Click to expand...

@thegrassfactor Did you use RGS on earlier batches? I thought I remember seeing a Label on LCN saying Improved with N-EXT RGS?


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## JeffCar26

I thought this as well. LCN's website still says improved with Next RGS.


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## thegrassfactor

dmouw said:


> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> macdawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought two jugs this year of "Ultramate", an Andersons product with 3% potassium, 1% sulfur, and 12% humic acid. Subjectively, seems to help with recovery a little bit. I am tired of putting down liquid products and would prefer a granular product for convenience, and for that reason will probably buy a bag of Humic DG next year.
> 
> I have heard that one "proposed benefit" of the liquid products is foliar absorption. I really just want to go all granular and stick to focusing basics of watering, mowing, fertilizing and annual overseeding. The main products that interest me from GCF would be Carbon X or 8-1-8.
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to interrupt, but both of those granular products were designed and manufactured by Carbon Earth.
> 
> We do not use RGS, as we source our humic substances from both North Dakota as well as Canada. Our kelp also comes from Canada. We purchase either as soluble powders and reconstitute it, or as is the case with Xstart, we purchase liquid fulvic.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @thegrassfactor Did you use RGS on earlier batches? I thought I remember seeing a Label on LCN saying Improved with N-EXT RGS?
Click to expand...

Yes, first release did, and not after


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## ksturfguy

thegrassfactor said:


> dmouw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to interrupt, but both of those granular products were designed and manufactured by Carbon Earth.
> 
> We do not use RGS, as we source our humic substances from both North Dakota as well as Canada. Our kelp also comes from Canada. We purchase either as soluble powders and reconstitute it, or as is the case with Xstart, we purchase liquid fulvic.
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor Did you use RGS on earlier batches? I thought I remember seeing a Label on LCN saying Improved with N-EXT RGS?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, first release did, and not after
Click to expand...

Interesting


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## Mtsdream

For me the comparison was SLS humic acid vs the n-ext products and n-ext wins that comparison by a large amount. Seems like there are a few here bent on putting down JPs products, but ask yourself this, would you put your livelihood on the line for selling snake oil?


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## polofitted007

Mtsdream said:


> For me the comparison was SLS humic acid vs the n-ext products and n-ext wins that comparison by a large amount. Seems like there are a few here bent on putting down JPs products, but ask yourself this, would you put your livelihood on the line for selling snake oil?


Not a lot of facts in your post. Please explain why n-ext products are better for you?


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## Mtsdream

polofitted007 said:


> Mtsdream said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me the comparison was SLS humic acid vs the n-ext products and n-ext wins that comparison by a large amount. Seems like there are a few here bent on putting down JPs products, but ask yourself this, would you put your livelihood on the line for selling snake oil?
> 
> 
> 
> Not a lot of facts in your post. Please explain why n-ext products are better for you?
Click to expand...

Cost vs quantity, sls 32oz 20$, next 2.5 gallons, roughly 55$.


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## greengrass

thegrassfactor said:


> dmouw said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hate to interrupt, but both of those granular products were designed and manufactured by Carbon Earth.
> 
> We do not use RGS, as we source our humic substances from both North Dakota as well as Canada. Our kelp also comes from Canada. We purchase either as soluble powders and reconstitute it, or as is the case with Xstart, we purchase liquid fulvic.
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor Did you use RGS on earlier batches? I thought I remember seeing a Label on LCN saying Improved with N-EXT RGS?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, first release did, and not after
Click to expand...

Does the old batch have the RHHP peptides? Or is that the in the new formula? Kind of confusing because GCI and LCN still advertise RGS as part of Carbon x.


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## thegrassfactor

greengrass said:


> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dmouw said:
> 
> 
> 
> @thegrassfactor Did you use RGS on earlier batches? I thought I remember seeing a Label on LCN saying Improved with N-EXT RGS?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, first release did, and not after
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Does the old batch have the RHHP peptides? Or is that the in the new formula? Kind of confusing because GCI and LCN still advertise RGS as part of Carbon x.
Click to expand...

When we announced Cx PRO - no more RGS.

RHPP Peptides - 2020. We do not know what our product availability for the 2020 season will look like for the DIY market.


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## Pemt13

thegrassfactor said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, first release did, and not after
> 
> 
> 
> Does the old batch have the RHHP peptides? Or is that the in the new formula? Kind of confusing because GCI and LCN still advertise RGS as part of Carbon x.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When we announced Cx PRO - no more RGS.
> 
> RHPP Peptides - 2020. We do not know what our product availability for the 2020 season will look like for the DIY market.
Click to expand...

Meaning??? So DIY market will no longer have available to it CX, Xgrn, etc? If so, why not?


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## bmitch05

Pemt13 said:


> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does the old batch have the RHHP peptides? Or is that the in the new formula? Kind of confusing because GCI and LCN still advertise RGS as part of Carbon x.
> 
> 
> 
> When we announced Cx PRO - no more RGS.
> 
> RHPP Peptides - 2020. We do not know what our product availability for the 2020 season will look like for the DIY market.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Meaning??? So DIY market will no longer have available to it CX, Xgrn, etc? If so, why not?
Click to expand...

Maybe just the opposite? As quickly as new distributors are gobbling up the Carbon Earth products into new markets it seems availability to the DIY is getting better.


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## Pemt13

@bmitch05 Glass is half full perspective.... I like it! Hope that is the case. I am sure Matt will weigh in....


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## thegrassfactor

bmitch05 said:


> Pemt13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> When we announced Cx PRO - no more RGS.
> 
> RHPP Peptides - 2020. We do not know what our product availability for the 2020 season will look like for the DIY market.
> 
> 
> 
> Meaning??? So DIY market will no longer have available to it CX, Xgrn, etc? If so, why not?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe just the opposite? As quickly as new distributors are gobbling up the Carbon Earth products into new markets it seems availability to the DIY is getting better.
Click to expand...

Quite the opposite. We're running into significant issues picking up distribution because of being labelled a "DIY" product.

We're debating internally pretty heavily on what to do with our own brand. There is a significant chance we will scrap it for DIY market if we continue to face extreme pushback while trying to make entry into our priority markets. Obviously it's not what we _want_ to do, but while we sort through options it may be what we _have_ to do.


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## Babaganoosh

Could always get the stuff into the commercial retailers like site one. They sell to the DIY guy as well. Not a perfect scenario but better than cutting the DIY out all together.

If there isn't a way to currently distribute to the DIY guy then build it. Easier said than done but again. Better than nothing.


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## ksturfguy

Babaganoosh said:


> Could always get the stuff into the commercial retailers like site one. They sell to the DIY guy as well. Not a perfect scenario but better than cutting the DIY out all together.
> 
> If there isn't a way to currently distribute to the DIY guy then build it. Easier said than done but again. Better than nothing.


Dont think you quite understood him. He currently has a way to distribute to DIY but because of this his product is being labeled a DIY product and not a professional product which is hurting the business. I guess some distributors dont want to carry a product if they think its geared more towards DIY folks.


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## bmitch05

ksturfguy said:


> Babaganoosh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could always get the stuff into the commercial retailers like site one. They sell to the DIY guy as well. Not a perfect scenario but better than cutting the DIY out all together.
> 
> If there isn't a way to currently distribute to the DIY guy then build it. Easier said than done but again. Better than nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Dont think you quite understood him. He currently has a way to distribute to DIY but because of this his product is being labeled a DIY product and not a professional product which is hurting the business. I guess some distributors dont want to carry a product if they think its geared more towards DIY folks.
Click to expand...

This is simply an observation but I always assumed that CE products weren't originally going to be available to the DIY. If cutting out the DIY market rides on fate of the revenues for the business I think it's pretty clear what the outcome for the DIY market will be.

I don't think the DIYers are completely on the outs, I talked to the distributor in my area yesterday and they have no issues with selling smaller quantities to me, which is great. The DIY consumer will find a way if they want it bad enough.

With that said I understand why this would be a necessary outcome, as a business you have to sell to the highest probability buyers if you're going to meet revenue goals. I hope it all works out for the CE team because I personally love the products.


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## Naidu

I rather get it from local distributor (If there will be one here in MD) than online with outrageous shipping costs. Thinking about paying 400 pounds of XSOIL shipping is making me sweat!


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## Pemt13

Naidu said:


> I rather get it from local distributor (If there will be one here in MD) than online with outrageous shipping costs. Thinking about paying 400 pounds of XSOIL shipping is making me sweat!


I echo that. I, too, am in Maryland and would hope local or even a regional distribution option is possible.


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## Babaganoosh

ksturfguy said:


> Babaganoosh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Could always get the stuff into the commercial retailers like site one. They sell to the DIY guy as well. Not a perfect scenario but better than cutting the DIY out all together.
> 
> If there isn't a way to currently distribute to the DIY guy then build it. Easier said than done but again. Better than nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Dont think you quite understood him. He currently has a way to distribute to DIY but because of this his product is being labeled a DIY product and not a professional product which is hurting the business. I guess some distributors dont want to carry a product if they think its geared more towards DIY folks.
Click to expand...

Gotcha
I was drinking a few Busch lattes last night....


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## Naidu

Pemt13 said:


> Naidu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I rather get it from local distributor (If there will be one here in MD) than online with outrageous shipping costs. Thinking about paying 400 pounds of XSOIL shipping is making me sweat!
> 
> 
> 
> I echo that. I, too, am in Maryland and would hope local or even a regional distribution option is possible.
Click to expand...

May be http://newsomseed.com/ can pick up carbon earth products!


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## Rswarren14

@thegrassfactor @Babaganoosh Rome wasnt built in a day. hopefully they will figure something out or just make a DIY specific product just labeled differently but same formula and quality.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Rswarren14 said:


> @thegrassfactor @Babaganoosh Rome wasnt built in a day. hopefully they will figure something out or just make a DIY specific product just labeled differently but same formula and quality.


That's a good idea! Fancy looking label and smaller quantity for DIY and simple label for commercial. Seems to be the norm. Maybe tweak the DIY so there is a slight difference?


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## Rswarren14

@Suburban Jungle Life I'm sure under legal reasons they would need to make the two product lines different in some fashion.


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## Rebellawn

CPA Nerd said:


> Is my math and logic correct here?
> 
> 5 gallons of N-Ext Humic 12 is $100 and contains 12% humic acid. If a gallon weighs 10 pounds (just an assumption and I know a gallon of water is 8 pounds so I'm giving them a bit extra), that's 6 pounds of humic acid, or $16.67 per pound of humic acid.
> 
> A 40 pound bag of Anderson's Humic DG granular is $65 and contains 70% humic acid. That's 28 pounds, or $2.32 per pound of humic acid.
> 
> Is my comparison apples to apples?
> 
> If the rate of Humic 12 is 6 fl oz per 1k, that's just 0.056 pounds of humic acid per 1k if my math is right and logical.
> 
> The Anderson's product says to use 2 pounds of product per 1k, which is 1.4 pounds of humic acid per 1k, which is 25x the amount that the N-Ext product recommends.
> 
> I am an accountant, not a scientist or mathematician. Perhaps something is wrong with my math or I am making assumptions about these products that are not true.
> 
> If I am right (a big assumption), isn't the N-Ext product far more expensive, not to mention more labor intensive and time consuming to apply?


You are right. I talked to the rep from Anderson and they also sell a liquid called Ultramate Q. It has 12% humic, potash and nitrogen and folvic acid. It is like buying the Air 8 and Humic 12 combine. With the Anderson, we can put down 40-200 lb per acre.


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