# Help with herbecide



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

So I am new to lawncare and been spending a lot of time reading about different things and one of the biggest things is controlling different weeds.

Have about 24k in total and the backyard has a decent section (maybe 2-3k) which is filled with wild violet, plantain and creeping Charlie.





I want to give it a chance and not nuke it. Initial plan was to do a trimec classic and triclopyr combination spray but after extensively reading the labels do I even need the trimec for this section?

I was going to get trimec and triclopyr regardless. This because I have to spot spray at a lot of places for plantains - lots of them but very focal and trimec seemed like a cheaper option especially with triclopyr restriction in CT. 
Also have a few places with creeping Charlie and few small broadleaf weeds so was going to use either combo or just triclopyr.

Going to use a NIS for all of these with a chapin pump sprayer calibrated to 2 gallons per 1k.

If anyone could also guide on the temperature ranges that would be great.

Really appreciate all the help!


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

One option that I forgot was just to get southern AG Crossbow 32 and just use that for everything? Avoid getting everything separately?


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

I use this: https://www.domyown.com/remedy-ultra-herbicide-p-11710.html Mixed at 7cc's per gallon with NIS it will take out all the weeds in the photo. The wild violets and creeping charlie will take about 3 apps two weeks apart to get most of it but it will take several years to completely eliminate. A gallon of this stuff makes up to about 500 gallons of mixed product so outside of the initial purchase it's very economical.

As far as temps go, up to 85 your fine and I've spot sprayed in the 90's with only minor discoloration of the grass but that's when we were getting plenty of rain. I don't even keep 2-4-D around anymore because the Triclopyr covers all of my broadleaf stuff.


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## StarRaider (Jun 29, 2019)

Seeding is not recommended for 45 days after using triclopyr, so if you want to inter-seed or over-seed this fall, you would need to wait until September (assuming you apply herbicide soon). If you use something like Tenacity then you can seed sooner. Just a consideration.


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## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

The best time to kill Wild Violet is during the fall. This will allow the chemical to be drawn down into its massive root system. This may require several seasons to be fully rid of it. Even Glyphosate struggles with Wild violet. Spraying it prior to fall will hurt it (may even burn all of its top growth), only to rebound later.

I would use Crossbow or Changeup now. Reseed during the fall and spray again after your 2nd or 3rd mow.

Good hunting,


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

ForsheeMS said:


> I use this: https://www.domyown.com/remedy-ultra-herbicide-p-11710.html Mixed at 7cc's per gallon with NIS it will take out all the weeds in the photo. The wild violets and creeping charlie will take about 3 apps two weeks apart to get most of it but it will take several years to completely eliminate. A gallon of this stuff makes up to about 500 gallons of mixed product so outside of the initial purchase it's very economical.
> 
> As far as temps go, up to 85 your fine and I've spot sprayed in the 90's with only minor discoloration of the grass but that's when we were getting plenty of rain. I don't even keep 2-4-D around anymore because the Triclopyr covers all of my broadleaf stuff.


Thanks for the link, I have been looking around and triclopyr seems to be expensive, lol. 
I'm okay with multiple applications and do realize that it will remain and will need some years but have to start somewhere.

With the heat a lot of stuff is coming out so thinking if I should do an initial blanket spray but that's a lot to cover with a pump sprayer .. lol


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

troksd said:


> The best time to kill Wild Violet is during the fall. This will allow the chemical to be drawn down into its massive root system. This may require several seasons to be fully rid of it. Even Glyphosate struggles with Wild violet. Spraying it prior to fall will hurt it (may even burn all of its top growth), only to rebound later.
> 
> I would use Crossbow or Changeup now. Reseed during the fall and spray again after your 2nd or 3rd mow.
> 
> Good hunting,


I wish I would have started reading earlier but realized all this after April/may window so here I am. How do you thinking would the mix of trimec and triclopyr be? Or should I just go with a premixed stuff like crossbow?

The reason I ask is I could use the separate stuff in the fall if i dont over seed.



StarRaider said:


> Seeding is not recommended for 45 days after using triclopyr, so if you want to inter-seed or over-seed this fall, you would need to wait until September (assuming you apply herbicide soon). If you use something like Tenacity then you can seed sooner. Just a consideration.


That's what my initial plan was but with the recent 100 degree temperatures it seemed impossible. I was planning to start spraying this weekend and get a second application at least 10 days out, that would put me to about 6-10th Aug. 45 days from there means I am mid o late September which doesn't seem too bad but thinking if it might be just better to give 2 weeks in between, but 3 apps down and a good pre-emergent. Try for a spring seeding maybe? Tenacity in the spring and a late preM for the year. 
Maintain a good fertilizing during that time.


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## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

I would go with Crossbow at 2oz per gallon.



uts said:


> I wish I would have started reading earlier but realized all this after April/may window so here I am. How do you thinking would the mix of trimec and triclopyr be? Or should I just go with a premixed stuff like crossbow?
> 
> The reason I ask is I could use the separate stuff in the fall if i dont over seed.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

uts said:


> So I am new to lawncare ...
> 
> Have about 24k in total and the backyard has a decent section (maybe 2-3k) which is filled with wild violet, plantain and creeping Charlie.


First off, welcome to the lawn forum and the exploration of the lawn care hobby!

A few thoughts from reading your post:


Personally, given your mention that you are new to lawn care, I'd highly suggest you spend a year making your current lawn be the best it can be through learning more about techniques for mowing, irrigation, weed control, and pest/disease control before embarking upon a lawn renovation (or even an overseed). I think you may be surprised how good your current lawn can look with your learning better lawn maintenance practices.


Read the Cool Season Lawn Guide in the next couple days, if you haven't already. Start improving your mowing and irrigation practices. Then in a couple of weeks, read the Cool Season Lawn Guide again -- you'll find stuff you missed the first time or that were over your head originally.


Your profile lists your lawn size as 24000 sqft. That's a large lawn. Having a well-maintained lawn of that size is a balancing act in terms of time, money, and results sought. Most of the folks here (myself included) have comparatively smaller lawns, and sometimes the approaches need to be a little different for larger lawns.


Lawn care is a marathon, not a sprint. I have found that a demand for instant results is often counterproductive to long-term establishment of a beautiful lawn.


If you already have mowing and irrigation covered, it would be good to start attacking those weeds. I'm presuming the pictures you posted are of some of the worst spots. There is a good bit of grass interspersed with the weeds; I think the proper use of a selective herbicide for the weeds will give good results as the grass you have there is spread evenly enough that it will look phenomenally better this fall.

It sounds like you already have a sprayer and have calibrated it to apply 2 gallons per 1 ksqft. That's excellent!

I would start by applying triclopyr on the worst sections of lawn. To eliminate the wild violet and creeping charlie will require about 2-3 applications, spaced about 10-14 days apart each. With you being in CT, I think it would be fine to apply triclopyr in the summer, as long as you wait for a day to apply where it has been no hotter than the high 70s / low 80s for one day prior, and forecasted for about 2-3 more days after the application. A couple days ago, after the recent heat wave broke, would have been just about perfect, as there has been about a 4-day lapse in the heat. Another such period is likely to happen in the next 2 weeks, if you're ready for it. Get the product on hand before then, ensure you understand the rate at which your sprayer is calibrated (test spraying with plain water), and be ready.

For wild violet and creeping charlie (two weeds not affected by broadleaf weed killers such as 2,4-D) the active ingredient of choice is triclopyr. Triclopyr gives a "slow kill" but is very effective in permanently eliminating the target weeds, not just "burning off" the foliage so that the plant recovers from the roots. (See the "lawn care is a marathon" thought above.) Triclopyr is readily accessible in small quantities at big box stores such as Walmart, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. as Ortho Weed B Gon Chickweed, Clover & Oxalis Killer for Lawns Concentrate. https://www.ortho.com/en-us/products/weeds/ortho-weed-b-gon-chickweed-clover-oxalis-killer-lawns-concentrate. It is about $10 for a 16-oz bottle that will cover about 3200 sqft when applied according to label directions. You'll probably need 2-3 applications, so plan for the repeat applications when making your purchase. With your large lawn, you can save money in bulk purchases such as the Remedy suggested by ForsheeMS at https://www.domyown.com/remedy-ultra-herbicide-p-11710.html



uts said:


> I want to give it a chance and not nuke it.


As mentioned above, I think that's the right approach. If nothing else, having a year of experience in excellent lawn maintenance before undertaking a lawn renovation will at least double the likelihood of a successful renovation.



uts said:


> If anyone could also guide on the temperature ranges that would be great.


Asking for help on this forum is good. However, as a general rule, don't let the answers from people here be a substitute for reading the label yourself. People here (myself included) may miss important details like your grass type, your location, your experience level, etc. Always read the label. It may seem like a waste of time to read the label, as most of the contents will be stuff you don't care about or doesn't apply to your case, but the label will also include important details like temperature restrictions, whether the application should be watered in or applied when it's dry, and how long one needs to wait before seeding after an application. Manufacturer's websites are great for linking to labels. domyown.com generally always links to the label, too. In this case, the Ortho CCO label at https://www.ortho.com/sites/g/files/oydgjc116/files/asset_images/products/ortho/weed_killers/weeds_in_lawn/pdf/WBGChickweedCloverOxalis_042009.pdf answers your question: "Spray when temperature is below 90F."

Good luck and have fun!


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## StarRaider (Jun 29, 2019)

Really good advice from @ken-n-nancy !!!

Alternate source for "concentrated" triclopyr (32 oz / 1 gal / 2.5 gal size options).

https://www.solutionsstores.com/triclopyr-4-brush-killer-garlon-4

FYI I have a lawn your size and bought a gallon back in 2012 and still have about a quart left, so it goes a long way.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

StarRaider said:


> Really good advice from @ken-n-nancy !!!
> 
> Alternate source for "concentrated" triclopyr (32 oz / 1 gal / 2.5 gal size options).
> 
> ...


Saw the website and they have good pricing but most stuff is not deliverable to CT


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

ForsheeMS said:


> I use this: https://www.domyown.com/remedy-ultra-herbicide-p-11710.html Mixed at 7cc's per gallon with NIS it will take out all the weeds in the photo. The wild violets and creeping charlie will take about 3 apps two weeks apart to get most of it but it will take several years to completely eliminate. A gallon of this stuff makes up to about 500 gallons of mixed product so outside of the initial purchase it's very economical.
> 
> As far as temps go, up to 85 your fine and I've spot sprayed in the 90's with only minor discoloration of the grass but that's when we were getting plenty of rain. I don't even keep 2-4-D around anymore because the Triclopyr covers all of my broadleaf stuff.


So I just got my triclopyr delivered today. Went with alligare which has the same 61% AI.

My question is how did you come up with 7cc/gallon-is it for 1000sqft? How much sqft are you treating with it?

From the manufacturer description for ornamental turf broadcast applications. Its 0.5-1qt per acre. So assuming the middle ground its 0.75qt =709ml/acre=48ksqft 
This calculated out to 14.7cc per 1000sqft which for me takes 2 gallons

For spot treatment the recommendation is 3/8-3/4oz for 1k sqft. Midway its 0.5625oz = 16.63ml

Anything that I am missing here folks?

I'm gonna measure a 1000sqft area which is heavily infested and see if I can do it in a gallon but are my calculations off?


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Also need some advice on mixing trimec.

The label (triclopyr) says for improving spectrum mix 1/2 to 1 pint per acre which is approximately 5-10cc/1ksqft

This seems like an obvious question but this will be the rate I use correct? because the standalone rate of trimec classic is 3-4 points per acre which is 4x what is suggested to use with triclopyr.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@uts I may be on the complete opposite spectrum of all the comments. And I agree lawn is a journey not a destination. And you win or you learn. So in order to do all possible mistakes faster. I would nuke it. Maybe not all of it. Hitting nothing but weeds with selective herbicide is a waste of money and harmful to mother nature. You will need a lot of those expensive names vs a gallon? of Nuke ). Buy good seeds, but not elite stuff. prepare all and seed. Fail and learn. Now control those weeds (that will be controllable at this point) and learn what works for you.
M


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

uts said:


> So I just got my triclopyr delivered today. Went with alligare which has the same 61% AI.
> 
> My question is how did you come up with 7cc/gallon-is it for 1000sqft? How much sqft are you treating with it?
> 
> ...


My approach to figuring it out wasn't very scientific. I went with the percentage that was in the Ortho CCO I had been using and did the math which came out to 7cc's per gallon of the 61% being the equivalent of 2 ounces per gallon of CCO. From there I tested on a small area. The weeds died but the grass didn't. Sorry, hope you weren't expecting me to post some great mathematical formula I came up with. :lol:

The 7cc's per gallon has worked great for me for spot spraying and earlier this year I did a blanket spray on my son's lawn at the same rate and it worked well too. I do feel the ester based Triclopyr works much better than the type they use in CCO. Hopefully someone else can chime in here.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

gergelybg said:


> @uts I may be on the complete opposite spectrum of all the comments. And I agree lawn is a journey not a destination. And you win or you learn. So in order to do all possible mistakes faster. I would nuke it. Maybe not all of it. Hitting nothing but weeds with selective herbicide is a waste of money and harmful to mother nature. You will need a lot of those expensive names vs a gallon? of Nuke ). Buy good seeds, but not elite stuff. prepare all and seed. Fail and learn. Now control those weeds (that will be controllable at this point) and learn what works for you.
> M


The gallon of nuke was 20 bucks (bought that for something else) and everything else was 5x the money so I already understand the pain... lol.

I wanted to give the place an opportunity for both the place and myself. I want to learn how to spray large areas of herbecides and be able to make mistakes- will be a shame to burn good areas of lawn if I dont learn first but I completely understand where you are coming from.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

ForsheeMS said:


> My approach to figuring it out wasn't very scientific. I went with the percentage that was in the Ortho CCO I had been using and did the math which came out to 7cc's per gallon of the 61% being the equivalent of 2 ounces per gallon of CCO. From there I tested on a small area. The weeds died but the grass didn't. Sorry, hope you weren't expecting me to post some great mathematical formula I came up with. :lol:
> 
> The 7cc's per gallon has worked great for me for spot spraying and earlier this year I did a blanket spray on my son's lawn at the same rate and it worked well too. I do feel the ester based Triclopyr works much better than the type they use in CCO. Hopefully someone else can chime in here.


So that makes sense since a combination usually requires lower concentrations just like the trimec i mentioned above.

But hey that concentration worked and that's all that matters, least amount is what we need.

I think I will be going the middle recommended route just because of the weed density and decide from there.

Pictures coming in a few hours!


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@uts I just nuked mine 5 days ago and looked like that


All in the name of the journey brother


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

gergelybg said:


> @uts I just nuked mine 5 days ago and looked like that
> 
> 
> All in the name of the journey brother


Oh boy ... what mower are you using for those stripes?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@uts the Toro stripe kit attached to a basic Honda mower.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

uts said:


> From the manufacturer description for ornamental turf broadcast applications. Its 0.5-1qt per acre. So assuming the middle ground its 0.75qt =709ml/acre=48ksqft
> This calculated out to 14.7cc per 1000sqft which for me takes 2 gallons
> 
> For spot treatment the recommendation is 3/8-3/4oz for 1k sqft. Midway its 0.5625oz = 16.63ml
> ...


Can anyone confirm I'm not crazy using 15ml/1000sqft?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@uts some may punish my aggressive vision again, but strike it as per your math. If you are wrong, you will learn and never do it again lol.
Now more serious, Label is law. Check your math couple of times. But most important, let the thing do its thing! I made the mistake few times in the past, assuming my app was off or not well applied and I ended up burning the lawn. Well, I actually killed few spots.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

An acre is 43.5 ksqft instead of 48ksqft.

If you want the 1 quart/acre = 32oz/43.5 = 950mL/43.5 = 22mL/ksqft or 0.74oz/ksqft.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

g-man said:


> An acre is 43.5 ksqft instead of 48ksqft.
> 
> If you want the 1 quart/acre = 32oz/43.5 = 950mL/43.5 = 22mL/ksqft or 0.74oz/ksqft.


Thank you. This is the stupid stuff I was afraid off.

Thank you for correcting me.



gergelybg said:


> @uts some may punish my aggressive vision again, but strike it as per your math. If you are wrong, you will learn and never do it again lol.
> Now more serious, Label is law. Check your math couple of times. But most important, let the thing do its thing! I made the mistake few times in the past, assuming my app was off or not well applied and I ended up burning the lawn. Well, I actually killed few spots.


I really dont think its unreasonable what you are saying. I really do think I might eventually need to do it since I do have bent grass in adjoining areas but this gives me just some experience and I already spend some money on triclopyr and trimec 

I read the labels pretty thoroughly and I think I will go with the triclopyr and trimec combo- heavier on the triclopyr as directed by the label.

I am just debating whether to put a pre-em down or do a late fall overseeding in the area where I will spray.

I'm pretty sure coming spring I will have to do a broadleaf pre-em as well in some areas - or do I just kill them as they grow? I've always been a preventative guy so you know where I lean.


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