# Why TTTF?



## Ryanmorales88 (Apr 30, 2020)

So on YouTube especially, I always see people seeding with PRG or KBG. My question to all of you is, why would I plant TTTF instead of the others? Would love to hear the pros and cons and opinions of TLF community.


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## cityofoaks (Sep 8, 2020)

TF is more heat tolerant and thus better suited than those other two for use in the transition zone. It is also more shade tolerant as well. It comes down to it being the only cool season turf choice in some areas.

I personally think KBG is better in almost every other way and I would love to use it in my area but the ones I have tried don't even come close to making it through summer. Currently experimenting with some hybrids to see how they do next year.


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## 01Bullitt (Aug 31, 2020)

I agree with @cityofoaks, TTTF is the best cool season choice in the transition zone especially if you don't have irrigation. Cons would be it does not self repair like KBG so if you lose some in a drought then a fall overseed is in order.


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## NoVaNovice (Sep 21, 2020)

Not many options for us in the DC metro area if you don't have irrigation. I grew up in coastal region with St Augustine and I miss the ease of set repair.

My experience is that TTTF is far superior when it's thick and healthy but way harder to get to a mature lawn.


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## vipersbyms (Aug 22, 2020)

A lot of the Youtube guys also use reel mowers and cut low, which is possible with KBG and Rye. When I was doing my homework on grass types, the shade and drought tolerance is what sold me on TTTF. I have KBG, but without irrigation and life getting in the way I did a heavy overseed with TTTF as the KBG was pretty poor in big parts of the yard.


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## nycbob (Aug 7, 2020)

Faster germination time, more heat and drought tolerate. Only downside is don't spread like blue grass.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Though everyone repeats the mantra of more heat and drought tolerance with fescue, having grown both in high temperature and humidity conditions, I tend to dispute that claim.

I've never seen bluegrass die or go dormant purely due to heat, including during stretches of weeks above 90 with multiple days near or over 100 degrees. Granted, if you push far enough south and reach the extremes, there may be a difference at the top end, but you probably have no business growing bluegrass, nor fescue in those conditions.

As far as drought tolerance, bluegrass takes about the same amount of water as fescue to keep alive. If you don't irrigate, bluegrass has far superior recovery from dormancy vs fescue, which simply dies. So as far as tolerating drought, I think bluegrass has a clear edge. If you throw in brown patch, you're more likely to end up with a nice bluegrass lawn at the end of summer than a nice fescue lawn.

I think with minimal care, and proper selection of variety/mix, bluegrass is a superior option for the Transition zone vs fescue. I find that because it's able to spread and I don't have to seed yearly, I use far less water overall with bluegrass. I also use far less fungicide, and stress less about damage to the lawn, because I know it will fill in. Switching from fescue to bluegrass has been a blessing.


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

j4c11 said:


> Though everyone repeats the mantra of more heat and drought tolerance with fescue, having grown both in high temperature and humidity conditions, I tend to dispute that claim.
> 
> I've never seen bluegrass die or go dormant purely due to heat, including during stretches of weeks above 90 with multiple days near or over 100 degrees. Granted, if you push far enough south and reach the extremes, there may be a difference at the top end, but you probably have no business growing bluegrass, nor fescue in those conditions.
> 
> ...


It may largely depends on the TF and *** cultivars as well. I assume you are irrigated? 
I had a salad bowl inherited from previous owner. Each summer, a little bit more of the old PRG and *** die. I have irrigation so they are watered equally. What is left by early fall is thick blade Fescue (likely K31) and many bare spots. I am now overseeding with top NTEP TTTF cultivars. I am very happy with the results thus far. I know it will take a couple of years for the lawn to transition towards the newer seedlings but so far so good :thumbup:


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

VALawnNoob said:


> It may largely depends on the TF and *** cultivars as well. I assume you are irrigated?
> I had a salad bowl inherited from previous owner. Each summer, a little bit more of the old PRG and *** die. What is left is thick blade Fescue (likely K31) and bare spots. I am now overseeding with top NTEP TTTF cultivars. I am very happy with the results thus far. I know it will take a couple of years for the lawn to transition towards the newer seedlings but so far so good :thumbup:


Sure, that's why I said with proper mix selection. That's probably where fescue has the edge, you're far more like to succeed with any random fescue than with any random bluegrass. So, from that standpoint, maybe it's fair that most places recommend fescue, since the average homeowner will not be analyzing NTEP data.

I don't have an irrigation system. I do supplement water as needed between rains with hose and sprinkler.


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## greengrass (Sep 9, 2018)

Cultivar definitely matters. The Mazama KBG reno I did thrived in 90 degree weather non irrigated this past summer.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> Though everyone repeats the mantra of more heat and drought tolerance with fescue, having grown both in high temperature and humidity conditions, I tend to dispute that claim.
> 
> I've never seen bluegrass die or go dormant purely due to heat, including during stretches of weeks above 90 with multiple days near or over 100 degrees. Granted, if you push far enough south and reach the extremes, there may be a difference at the top end, but you probably have no business growing bluegrass, nor fescue in those conditions.
> 
> ...


Same for me. KBG just takes mowing, watering and fertilizing where as the TTTF always needs severe repair overseeding in the fall and fungicide applications during the summer. I have in ground irrigation, though.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> If you don't irrigate, bluegrass has far superior recovery from dormancy vs fescue, which simply dies. So as far as tolerating drought, I think bluegrass has a clear edge. If you throw in brown patch, you're more likely to end up with a nice bluegrass lawn at the end of summer than a nice fescue lawn.


I don't believe the whole tall fescue dies when it goes dormant. I can't speak for Kentucky Bluegrass because I've never grown it. I live in the transition zone in mid Missouri where most people have fescue and every summer I see a lot of lawns going dormant and a lot of those coming out of dormancy.

Here is a strip of my lawn coming out of dormancy. You can see my neighbor's lawn at the top of the pictures as well greening back up. If those pure brown areas aren't dormant, then I don't know what is. This is not uncommon where I live, especially since most folks don't have irrigation.

Pics from July to today of this year. It was not reseeded.







I've read some members say tall fescue doesn't have a dormancy mechanism. Well, the grass goes dormant every winter. Does it not have some dormant mechanism during the summer?


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## 01Bullitt (Aug 31, 2020)

Here is a nice guide for selecting a grass type and maintaining it for the 3 different regions of NC. 
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/carolina-lawns


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

Ryanmorales88 said:


> So on YouTube especially, I always see people seeding with PRG or KBG. My question to all of you is, why would I plant TTTF instead of the others? Would love to hear the pros and cons and opinions of TLF community.


KBG is much much better. Here are my reasons based on my experience:
1) if your soil is heavy with clay or stones, TTTF's root can not grow deep, so no advantage from TTTF.

2) KBG can spread, TTTF not. You do not have to overseed every year.

3) KBG has rhizomes which helps them survive long and dry summer much better than TTTF, especially when your soil can not let TTTF grow 2 feet long root. If the new TTTF's roots are not not long enough, they will die in the summer if not helped by irrigation.

4) you do not have to water hours and hours to promote deeper root, KBG does not need long root to survive the summer.

5) in the summer, if you irrigate frequently, KBG can become green very fast from dormancy, if you want to keep a green look.

6) KBG can fight with Poa T. All you need to do is to roundup Poa.T, in the spring or summer. After a season, KBG will take over. For tttf, you have to make sure newly seeded TTTF can establish and live through summer otherwise Poa T will grow back. You can not get rid of Poa T once infected. The only way is to suppress them by introduce constant competition.

The only problem of KBG is in the shade area. But TTTF is just ok not excellent in shade area either. 
Plus, KBG has better cold resistance than TTTF.

To me, KBG is a worry free grass even in transition zone. 
All you need to do is to provide fertilizer(buy some cheap urea) and water. They will take care of themselves very well.


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

jacobpd said:


> 1) if your soil is heavy with clay or stones, TTTF's root can not grow deep, so no advantage from TTTF.


For this reason alone I may already be convinced :lol: 
I have clay that is waterlogged often in the back because not deep enough roots. It could be that I was lacking P but next season will be interesting to see if I can drive my TTTF roots deeper due to this season's overseeding and plenty of balanced fert.

Any specific *** cultivars I should be looking at in the transition zone? In terms of 1. color 2. drought 3. disease resistant ?


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## dwaugh (Aug 25, 2020)

jacobpd said:


> KBG is much much better. Here are my reasons based on my experience:
> 1) if your soil is heavy with clay or stones, TTTF's root can not grow deep, so no advantage from TTTF.
> 
> 2) KBG can spread, TTTF not. You do not have to overseed every year.
> ...


I thought TTTF was general considered to be more drought tolerant? I'm not fully up on TTTF, but regarding your point #3, I thought rhizomes helped KBG spread, I'm not sure how they would help with drought resistance as they are horizontal not vertical? As far as point #4, I thought deep watering helped with all grasses?, #5, if you irrigating frequently, it's only KBG that that stays green in the summer? I thought TTTF would do the same? #6, I don't get this, if for *** to "fight" _Poa trivialis_ involves using roundup to kill it, how is that different than TTTF?

I'm not questioning your experience, and I understand that most varieties of TTTF don't spread like KBG, but it if it was so bad, it seems like seed companies and researchers would not be putting continued effort into it?


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

I chose TTTF because my area has high clay content. Google "TTTF + clay soil + any University extension located within the transition zone" and you'll see this grass type is often recommended for clay.

I'm not saying KBG is any less suitable for clay. I haven't personally grown it so I'm not going to give advice on it. Give KBG a shot. I'm thinking about planting a small area of it next fall to compare against my tall fescue. I hope it does well.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Just think how cool it would (maybe will?) be if "they" ever clone a hybridized KBG-TTTF variety! Sigh ...

@moedank , that is a good looking "Snoopervisor" in that first pic!


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

dwaugh, I think we're all a little biased based upon where we live (hardiness zones); the grasses we've grown/are most familiar with; and our growing experiences, either good or bad.

And this sometimes skews our comments and suggestions.

Thanks 440mag! She's the grass guardian...and destroyer. Her potty spots ruin the grass cohesiveness in certain areas.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Ive grown TTTF and KBG the last 2 years kind of comparing them. The both have pros and cons. To me the TTTF is a little easier to keep green in the summer.

I will also dispute the claim that TTTF doesnt handle dormancy. Ill have areas that are direct sun turn brownish every summer and they recover just fine in the Fall. Now there are some areas that thin out or dont come back depending on how bad the summer is.

Really there is no perfect grass when you live in the transition zone and you just learn to deal with it.


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## dleonard11122 (Jun 24, 2020)

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but TTTF handles acidic soils (like we have in NJ) better than KBG.

Source

Turfgrass Species pH range
Sheep Fescue 5.0-6.0
Redtop 5.0-6.0
Velvet Bentgrass 5.0-6.0
Hard Fescue 5.0-6.5
Chewings Fescue 5.0-6.5
Creeping Red Fescues 5.5-6.5
Creeping & Colonial Bentgrass 5.5-6.5
Perennial Ryegrass 5.5-7.0
Tall Fescue 5.5-7.0
Annual Bluegrass 6.0-6.5
Kentucky Bluegrass 6.0-6.5
Canada Bluegrass 6.0-6.5
Rough Bluegrass 6.0-7.0
Bermudagrass 6.0-7.0
Zoysiagrass 6.0-7.0


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

I chose TTTF because I want green grass in the summer with minimal water.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Ohhhh buddy, this could be a can of worms. First thing's first, when you say plant, are you referring to a renovation that you're planning? My assumption is that is the case, so let's base the following on that.

Second, there needs to be an understanding of broad spectrum generalities about the different types of cool season grasses. TTTF will, generally speaking, be more drought tolerant than KBG and PRG. KBG, generally speaking, will have better disease tolerance than TTTF and PRG. PRG, generally speaking, will establish quicker than TTTF and KBG. Now, where things get complicated is the vast range of crossover from one cultivar to the next. For example, saying that TTTF is more drought tolerant than KBG and PRG doesn't mean that KBG and PRG, on the whole, are prone to summer stress. There are certain cultivars in the KBG world that will be more drought tolerant than some TTTF cultivars.

So, what does this mean for choosing a grass type based on your planting zone? It means that if you're not going to invest into a bag of elite cultivars and don't want to do the research and look at NTEP trials etc., then TTTF is, generally speaking, going to be your best option. Genetically, TTTF is more drought tolerant and handles summer heat better than KBG and PRG for most cultivars.

The big difference will be if you decide to go with an elite cultivar. If you do, you'll be getting something that is bred to withstand, as best it can, the things that it normally would struggle with genetically. There are plenty of elite cultivars of KBG that kick *** in summer heat, shade, etc. They are bred that way, you'll just have to do the research based on your location and find out which cultivars performed best in that area for your location in the NTEP trials.

You also have to keep your end goal in mind. If you want to mow low, you'll need to go with KBG or PRG or a blend of both. But if you do that you'll need to be prepared to irrigate and practice proper cultural practices to make it happen. If you want low maintenance and a taller HOC? TTTF is probably the better choice for VA, but you'll need a good rotation of fungicides to help against brown patch, which TTTF is more prone to than other grass types.

Long story short, if you want to go with KBG in the transition zone, then just make sure you do the research on the cultivars and don't just throw darts blindly and hope something sticks. As far as what cultivars specifically I would recommend, I'd have to look into the trials and see. What part of VA are you in?

EDIT: just realized I clicked on the wrong person's profile haha. Looks like you're in Mass. my post will apply to those in the transition zone.

For the OP, to answer your original question: you would choose TTTF because, generally speaking, it's going to be easier to maintain at taller heights and has better drought tolerance than KBG and PRG.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

OnTheLawn said:


> You also have to keep your end goal in mind. If you want to mow low, you'll need to go with KBG or PRG or a blend of both. But if you do that you'll need to be prepared to irrigate and practice proper cultural practices to make it happen. If you want low maintenance and a taller HOC? TTTF is probably the better choice for VA, but you'll need a good rotation of fungicides to help against brown patch, which TTTF is more prone to than other grass types.


I know you are trying to be general but there are dwarf type TTTFs like Siesta that can handle mowing as low as 1/2".


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## KansasJayhawk (Mar 30, 2020)

The pros and cons for each grass type has been thoroughly outlined in this thread. No need to rehash what has already been said. After hearing the feedback, the two questions I would ask myself if I were you would be:

How much work, time, and resources am I willing to devote to my yard?

What grass type do I prefer when it comes to appearance?

The first question only you can answer. The second question, is totally subjective. When it comes to TTTF, the grass stripes brilliantly. From a distance, TTTF can be incredibly striking and as Pete Denny says, "shines like a brand new penny." The blade is thicker and stands upright without flopping over because the grass blades are stronger. KBG stripes well but not as well as TTTF in my opinion. However, KBG is generally a darker green. Up close, KBG is luxurious with its soft blades of dark green. It's like the grass is inviting you to take off your shoes and run around on it.

The other option is the most common option in my area which is a blend of both types of grass. You get some of the benefits of both types. This is what my yard is.

If the choice was mine, I would go KBG.


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## dleonard11122 (Jun 24, 2020)

As someone with TTTF, I will say that IF I could do it all over again (which, I may for a portion of my yard) I'd go with KBG, mainly for the spreading and self-repair properties. Granted, I'd only do this because I have in-ground irrigation so drought tolerance isn't as much of an issue for me. If I didn't have in-ground irrigation, I would probably stick with the TTTF.


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