# Starter fert?.



## Blackshirtproud (Apr 7, 2018)

Greetings! I am new here but luv my lawn.

My question is. I have been going back and fourth on whether to put an app of starter down for my first app of the year. I have 15k of better than average lawn and am a LCN acolyte and use Milo most of the time. My thoughts on the starter is, get things going quickly with the high N to get a head start on whatever weeds make it through.

Also, thinking of skipping the prodiamine this spring and over seed controlling what ever breaks through with quiniclorac and 2-4d.

What are your thought?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Blackshirtproud said:


> Greetings! I am new here but luv my lawn.
> 
> My question is. I have been going back and fourth on whether to put an app of starter down for my first app of the year. I have 15k of better than average lawn and am a LCN acolyte and use Milo most of the time. My thoughts on the starter is, get things going quickly with the high N to get a head start on whatever weeds make it through.
> 
> ...


Welcome

Nitrogen in the spring has the effect of feeding the weeds and the lawn, so no head start.

I would not skip the prodiamine and I would seed in the fall.


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## stotea (Jul 31, 2017)

I second what g-man said. Additionally, early fert tends to cause disease issues for my lawn. Of course, every lawn is different, but that's just my experience.


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## Blackshirtproud (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks for the replies.
So, would you be of the opinion that a dose of Milo and go ahead with the pre emergent would be enough?

Any other recommendations? I'm in Central Nebraska and need to get the Prodiamine soon but the weather and my schedule keep conflicting. I have had this house for two seasons now and I have gotten the yard pretty decent. Just always second guessing myself.

I do really like the effect Milo has and it seems the grass has definitely benefited from using it vs. the typical otc brands.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I think the reason Allyn suggests starter fertilizer in the Spring is because the N content is lower, and many soils don't have enough readily available P. If you've had a soil test, and know that you need extra P, go for it once everything greens up...just don't drop a lot of N too early. Most starter fertilizers are low in N, but some aren't.

Milo is definitely the safer alternative, due to the issues that were brought up earlier in the thread regarding early-Spring synthetic N.


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## Killsocket (Mar 16, 2018)

Is starter fertilizer as a spring app generally a no-no? I was planning for it this spring as well with a prodiamine app.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Starter fertilizer is just a marketing term. It normally means a fert that has Phosphorous. For some brands it is a lot more phosphorous than nitrogen. But if your soil doesnt need phosphorous, then why add it? Too much could actually harm the roots/fungi.

Normally it is preferred to avoid nitrogen in the spring, so 1) you dont feed the weeds, 2) dont push top growth 3) let the lawn use the carbs it stored in the roots. Of course, some of this depends on how much nitrogen it got in the fall of last year.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

@g-man do you have an articles or sources for phosphorus harming roots/fungi? I know too much can tie up other nutrients such as iron and manganese. I would like to read into it! Phosphorus is a important nutrient in my eyes and if you ever read or listen to anything by dr. Vargas he's a big proponent of it as well


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Ridgerunner posted some in his thread (see the phosphorus section). https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1088

@Virginiagal posted some others in the past, but I cant find it.

Short version, it affects the development of the Mycorrhizal.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

It's a rather long thread.  
The articles about arbuscular mycorrhizae fungi (AMF) will be in the subsection entitled phosphorous in the "For nerds." section.
That reminds me @g-man. I need to PM VG and see how she is doing.

@Turfguy93 It's not that P isn't an important nutrient (they all are) it's the effect of excessive levels. If you Google "Glomalin" you'll find a number of articles about AMF importance to soil carbon and soil tilth also.


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## Miller_Low_Life (Apr 12, 2017)

First off I have to say Go Big Red! I'm in Omaha and I used Prodiamine a week ago and used Corn Gluten Meal from the folks that do Ringer. I did that tonight after being able to mow the first time. I believe the CGM has 9% N so I use that as my starter fert. I've been on the LCN's plan for three years now and usually add whatever Organic Material I can find.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

So mychrizae pulls P to the roots but what if there is plenty of P? And what if as in summer your roots are in the top 2 in. Which is typical of a cool season grass and it need to draw P. Not trying to argue just trying to learn.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Turfguy93 said:


> So mychrizae pulls P to the roots but what if there is plenty of P? And what if as in summer your roots are in the top 2 in. Which is typical of a cool season grass and it need to draw P. Not trying to argue just trying to learn.


Could you flesh your question out a bit more? I'm not sure I understand your "position/perspective" on P.
Sure, one could argue that you don't need AMF, just swamp the soil with more P than the plant can possibly use. P isn't toxic.
However:
There appears (studies) to be a direct relationship between P levels and AMF inoculation of turf plant roots. Less P (below 50 ppm, and BTW 50 ppm has been determined, even using M3 testing, to be sufficient to meet turf P needs), more inoculation, more AMF, and more AMF branching. Higher P levels, less AMF and branching. Excessive P (somewhere above 100 ppm), no inoculation and no AMF.
So?
In addition to supplying plants with P, AMF also supplies other nutrients and moisture. It acts as an extension of the roots. I don't have citations for you, but studies have also shown when P levels rise, besides less AMF: plants send less carbohydrates to the roots and the roots get fatter. rather than extend. In addition, as you have acknowledged, P interacts/binds with many other nutrients (significantly, micros) making them less available and P has an antagonistic effect with potassium, making potassium less available.
AMF also is the source of glomalin. Glomalin is now believed to be a major source of soil carbon and the "glue" that holds soil particles together creating peds, floculation and soil tilth. That is : better soil.
What would be the advantage of applying so much P that AMF becomes limited or is killed?
P.S. I don;t take you as argumentative, ask on.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is a great introductory article on mycorrhizae:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-7vt2bnaAhWRtlkKHWKfBEUQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2Sbc8ihaNEzrhpGYFzwlzX

For further reading, google "mycorrhizae" and "phosphorus fertilizer."

To answer Turfguy's question, if there is too much available phosphorus, the mycorrhizae aren't needed and don't develop. Especially in the summer when roots are under stress, you need all the mycorrhizae you can get working as hard as possible to seek out water and nutrients.

Update on me: I'm doing well. Cancer levels are going down, I have no bad side effects from chemo, and when the levels are low enough I will have a stem cell transplant. Just got a portacath which will spare my easily "blown" arm veins from weekly blood tests.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Awesome news!


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> Update on me: I'm doing well. Cancer levels are going down, I have no bad side effects from chemo, and when the levels are low enough I will have a stem cell transplant. Just got a portacath which will spare my easily "blown" arm veins from weekly blood tests.


Very sorry to hear you are dealing with this but great to hear that you are doing well!


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> Here is a great introductory article on mycorrhizae:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-7vt2bnaAhWRtlkKHWKfBEUQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2Sbc8ihaNEzrhpGYFzwlzX
> 
> For further reading, google "mycorrhizae" and "phosphorus fertilizer."
> ...


That sounds like good news. As always, I wish you well. Hope you are up to posting more.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Togo said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > Update on me: I'm doing well. Cancer levels are going down, I have no bad side effects from chemo, and when the levels are low enough I will have a stem cell transplant. Just got a portacath which will spare my easily "blown" arm veins from weekly blood tests.
> ...


Yes, very good news Virginiagal. :thumbup: My sister just went through cancer treatment and is also responding well.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> Turfguy93 said:
> 
> 
> > So mychrizae pulls P to the roots but what if there is plenty of P? And what if as in summer your roots are in the top 2 in. Which is typical of a cool season grass and it need to draw P. Not trying to argue just trying to learn.
> ...


The way I see it is that with low P you need myco to draw P to the roots and if you have plenty of P and the myco is limited why do you need myco if theirs a good level of P. And In the summer when roots are short and not functioning well the plant may benefit from phosphorus near the surface which would come from a spring or early summer app but a small app I'm talking .5-1 lbs P2O5 a year


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> The way I see it is that with low P you need myco to draw P to the roots and if you have plenty of P and the myco is limited why do you need myco if theirs a good level of P. And In the summer when roots are short and not functioning well the plant may benefit from phosphorus near the surface which would come from a spring or early summer app but a small app I'm talking .5-1 lbs P2O5 a year


If you haven't read Virginiagal's above link or this one: https://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/anr/HGA-00026.pdf Please do.
Turf roots feed the turf with the macro and micro nutrients that the grass needs to survive. AMF is an extension of the turf root. Look at it this way: Forget AMF. If studies showed that when P soil levels reach a certain high level, half of the grass's roots will die off and root mass will be cut in half. Would that be desirable?
For every 1# of N, turf will use 0.2 - 0.25 lbs of P and 0.5-1 lb of K. If you are feeding your turf 4# of N annually, adding about 1# of P annually would replace the P that the plant used from the soil and P soil levels would remain steady. That's perfectly fine. However, if you continually add P beyond what the turf can use, the soil P levels will rise and eventually reach "excessive" levels. For most people this is not an issue as their soil P is within the very wide range of non-detrimental, yet sufficient, P levels. So, yes, in most cases, yearly application of 1-2 # of P2O5 is fine, even advisable. But for some people, their P levels are already extremely high. We haven't had that many people post their soil tests here, but of those few, we have already had one where the soil P was above 90 ppm and one above 100 ppm. Why should they add more P when the turf already has more than it can possibly use?
Regarding the Summer application of P: Cool season turf growth (photosynthesis, etc.) slows drastically when temperatures rise (see ETo - I think @g-man can fill you in on that and refer you to a ledger). Short version: low production of carbs = slow growth = low need for nutrients. If you apply N during the Summer to stimulate growth, the health of the turf will be adversely affected. So we avoid Summer N apps. If the turf growth slows, it doesn't need N. If it doesn't need/use N, it isn't going to use/need P. What would be the point?


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

On the golf course side of things 70% of the nitrogen we apply is during the hottest months of the year through spoon feeding but I can see that's a lot different that most people wanna do to their yards. And even if your P levels are high most of the P is tied up and not available to the plant so I think several small apps of P throughout the year is beneficial and makes P more available to the plant.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Attached is a chart that uses the last 30years to determine the typical growth potential. I'm trying to get the average temp from the last 10 year to update this since weather patterns have change. If you want you could create your own: https://www.paceturf.org/index.php/journal/climate



Key info in this graph, (I limit my Nitrogen to 1lb/M/month).


Summer months (Jul/Aug) - conditions are not favorable and I should limit Nitrogen.
Total usage of elemental P is 21 ppm (5.1lb ofN/year)
Total usage of elemental K is 83ppm. (5.1lb ofN/year)
 Ignore the plus MLSN for now. 

The total usage is with the assumption that clippings are collected/disposed. I've read online (I havent found a formal study) that 80% of the nutrients are returned when clippings mulched.

Using 80% return then 4.2ppm of elemental P needs to replaced to the soil per year to maintain the same level.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Thanks @g-man that's pretty neat.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> Here is a great introductory article on mycorrhizae:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-7vt2bnaAhWRtlkKHWKfBEUQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw2Sbc8ihaNEzrhpGYFzwlzX
> 
> For further reading, google "mycorrhizae" and "phosphorus fertilizer."
> ...


Somehow I missed this update but am very glad to hear you are improving!


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