# Very thin,patchy Bermuda



## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

I have very thin,patchy Bermuda under two Live Oak trees on my front lawn.They are between small and medium sized.I cleaned up the inside of the bigger one yesterday to hopefully get some light through it.What can I do about the Bermuda under it.Reseed?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Redland1 
Bermuda needs sunlight and LOTS of it.
If it doesn't have enough light, nothing else is going to matter.

Hopefully you'll get enough sunlight with the changes you made. Otherwise, raise the canopy and clean out more of the tree limbs to allow more sunlight, or switch to a version of grass that will tolerate the lighting conditions, whether that be Tifgrand or Tiftuf Bermuda or switch to zoysia.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Agree. You can do what you can to mitigate the problem for now, but the shade will ultimately win the long game.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

If the changes I have made don't work,how about Latitude 36 or Celebration?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Some cultivars are definitely better than others, but the term "shade tolerant bermuda" is really an oxymoron.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Ware said:


> Some cultivars are definitely better than others, but the term "shade tolerant bermuda" is really an oxymoron.


So if I didn't go Bermuda is there a shade tolerant grass that pairs well with Bermuda?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If the trees have fully bloomed, you could use a DLI light meter to measure the amount of light reaching the turf under the trees and out in the yard. This would increase as the days get longer, but would give you an idea of the amount of light under the trees vs the amount of light in the open. With that information, you may be able to discern whether a 'shade-tolerant' bermuda cultivar would thrive under the tree in a manner that's suitable to you, or whether a different type of turf grass would be required.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Oh, or you could just put a mulch bed around the tree.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Do you have some photos you could share? Curious how big the trees are now.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Ware said:


> Do you have some photos you could share? Curious how big the trees are now.


I looked through my pictures on my phone and I don't have any,but I will be home in a couple of hours and I can take some.

Also am I too late for crabgrass pre emergent?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Redland1 said:


> Also am I too late for crabgrass pre emergent?


Perhaps, but better late than never.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm in the same boat, @Redland1. I have 12 Live Oak trees in my back yard and they have to stay for privacy reasons. I may end up trying Zoysia, but in the end, hardscape may be the only good looking answer.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@dfw_pilot give the TifTuf and Tifgrand options a look. The turfgrass breeder at UGA told me that Tifgrand is the better of the two if being cut with a reel mower.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)




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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)




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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

From that image, the house provides more shade than the tree. Could you move that house back 20ft?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Which direction does the house face?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If he just took these, then his house faces north.

Looking at the neighbors house, it looks green with a separation line. Is that Bermuda?


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

The neighbors house is all weeds. What I have is Bermuda


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

g-man said:


> From that image, the house provides more shade than the tree. Could you move that house back 20ft?


Time to cut down the tree or the house.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

So it's going to be tough sledding with bermuda as those trees mature. I would probably explore other options. Any interest in St. Augustine?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Ware said:


> So it's going to be tough sledding with bermuda as those trees mature. I would probably explore other options. Any interest in St. Augustine?


@Redland1 Just say no, unless you want to have the yard at 3.5" plus.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

g-man said:


> From that image, the house provides more shade than the tree. Could you move that house back 20ft?


LOL,I'm going to call building movers tomorrow


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Spammage said:


> Redland1 Just say no, unless you want to have the yard at 3.5" plus.


 :lol:

How would the zoysia do?


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Ware said:


> Which direction does the house face?


Northeast.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Ware said:


> So it's going to be tough sledding with bermuda as those trees mature. I would probably explore other options. Any interest in St. Augustine?


I was born and raised in Miami,FL so I am biased towards a St.augustine lawn,but wouldn't it look out of place in a Bermuda neighborhood?

I went to Siteone and purchased Lesco Pre M a couple of hours ago and was wondering if there are any problems with my dogs going onto the lawn once it's spread and watered in?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Redland1 said:


> I was born and raised in Miami,FL so I am biased towards a St.augustine lawn,but wouldn't it look out of place in a Bermuda neighborhood?


Eh, it would look better than dirt.

@Bunnysarefat has both. Maybe he will chime in.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Zoysia will do well reel cut and handles shade pretty well, and depending on the cultivar, better than St aug.

https://floridaturf.com/2013/01/17/quantifying-light-requirements-of-turfgrass-using-daily-light-integral/


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I'd honestly cut down those crappy builder grade trees before they get bigger.

But I say that with a 14 yr old home, and a massive Bradford pears out front....


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

If the house faces North(ish), then the bermuda might be okay there. One thing many people forget is trees will compete with the lawn for water (and nutrients). I would thin out that front tree significantly, add some additional water and see how the bermuda responds. If you need to get another grass type for those areas, then a zoysia matrella like diamond will likely be your closest color and texture match to the existing bermuda.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

FATC1TY said:


> I'd honestly cut down those crappy builder grade trees before they get bigger.
> 
> But I say that with a 14 yr old home, and a massive Bradford pears out front....


We have a winner.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Redland1 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> > So it's going to be tough sledding with bermuda as those trees mature. I would probably explore other options. Any interest in St. Augustine?
> ...


I am not that savy on the cold season where you live. Will st aug survive the winter season there without major damage?

I wouldn't be worried about it looking out of place, so long as it's whatever turf you have is in good condition.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

FATC1TY said:


> I'd honestly cut down those crappy builder grade trees before they get bigger...


Probably safe to say that someone will someday. Maybe not anytime soon, but those will eventually outgrow that space. It looks like the recommended spacing for a standard live oak is like 40' on center. :shock:


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

FATC1TY said:


> I'd honestly cut down those crappy builder grade trees before they get bigger.
> 
> But I say that with a 14 yr old home, and a massive Bradford pears out front....


Trust me I want them gone,but my wife wants them.Is there a way to kill them to make it look like it happened on its own?


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Spammage said:


> If the house faces North(ish), then the bermuda might be okay there. One thing many people forget is trees will compete with the lawn for water (and nutrients). I would thin out that front tree significantly, add some additional water and see how the bermuda responds. If you need to get another grass type for those areas, then a zoysia matrella like diamond will likely be your closest color and texture match to the existing bermuda.


That's funny that you say that.My brother who is a landscaper was telling me that very same thing about the tree taking all the nutrients and water.

Is there anything on this forum in regards to thinning out trees? I don't really know how to do it properly.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Redland1 said:
> 
> 
> > Ware said:
> ...


Houston gets as cold as here and almost all the lawns are st.augustine.


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

Bermuda under a live oak is never going to give anything better than what you have now, especially near the base of the tree. I was pretty shocked when I saw the picture of your house because, as was mentioned, these trees get massive. They get very tall but more than any tree I've ever seen they get wide. In people's yards they often look like a mushroom because people raise the canopy out of nessesity and the tree responds by growing wider and wider. Those two trees will eventually shade out your yard from being able to grow any grass whatsoever. However, I do not know how fast those trees grow. My best idea is medium speed as far as trees go. 
I also believe this tree may somehow inhibit growth from plants underneath it by some chemical means that is more effective than most plants, but don't quote me on that.

Whatever you decide to do, I just don't see those trees and that bermuda being able to coexist and give you the results you're looking for. If you religiously have those trees pruned you can probably have good looking st. augustine or zoysia. You just need to check the sun/shade patterns during the growing season to make sure it's getting enough.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

I put down Pre M and Lesco starter fert today.What fert should I put down the next go round Lesco with iron,Milorganite,or something else?


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Honestly, you're asking for trouble with a single live oak near the house, let alone two. They can get gargantuan, and will live centuries. You're going to have to replace your driveway and plumbing and sidewalk, maybe even the foundation once those trees get larger. My recommendation is to remove both of the trees, and plant crepe myrtles in their place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Oak This tree is near Charleston, and it's between 400-500 years old. I have seen other live oaks on old plantations in Bluffton, SC that have branches that are 35' long, and span 2 lanes of traffic. :shock:


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## southpaw748 (Jul 12, 2017)

I live in Charleston SC and live oaks are very popular here. It can easily double or triple land value if they are mature trees but don't expect to have any grass grow under these tress. Also they shouldn't be planted close to a house.

I have Zoysia Royal planted that is shade tolerant but still doesn't do very good is areas that get shade.


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

My wife got tired of seeing the thin area under the trees and asked me to put down some sod,so I purchased a pallet of Latitude 36 Bermuda and laid it down.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Redland1 said:


> My wife got tired of seeing the thin area under the trees


There was your chance to cut down the trees.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Redland1 said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> > I'd honestly cut down those crappy builder grade trees before they get bigger.
> ...


There is... call a guy in Alabama. Harvey Updyke. He knows what will kill live oaks and not mess up the grass.

Seriously. You are asking for trouble with a live oak in that front yard if that's what it really is.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

FATC1TY said:


> Redland1 said:
> 
> 
> > FATC1TY said:
> ...


Updyke's method wouldn't be wise in this case considering the long term objective - spike 80DF is a total vegetation controller; trees and all.


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

They had to replace soil several feet deep after Harvey did his thing. They have already had to replace one of the new trees.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I am curious to see how your Lat 36 does. I saw on sod solution's website that lat 36 was suppose to be shade tolerant. However, during my research on shade tolerant bermuda cultivars, the names I saw come up where Celebration, Tiftuf, and Tifgrand.

My opinion, and I believe the opinion of others, is that you have a lack of sunlight for Bermuda. You may be able to get by with one of the aforementioned shade tolerant cultivars and maybe the Lat 36. The options include - hope a shade tolerant version works, switch to zoysia or st aug that will get by with less light, turn the area into a non-turfgrass bed, and/or remove the tree.

Not to belabor the point, but even ignoring the impact of the shade caused by the tree, there are all kinds of other potential issues down the line that you may encounter by having an oak that close to your house and drive way. Granted, those may not be an issue depending on how long you plan to stay in the house.

Best of luck with the lat 36. If you stay active on the forum, it would be nice to see a photo of the same area, in July, the end of the season, and next summer.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

raldridge2315 said:


> They had to replace soil several feet deep after Harvey did his thing. They have already had to replace one of the new trees.


I had no idea this happened. I watched a few videos about it after I read this post, and man, talk about taking things a bit too far!


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## Redland1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> I am curious to see how your Lat 36 does. I saw on sod solution's website that lat 36 was suppose to be shade tolerant. However, during my research on shade tolerant bermuda cultivars, the names I saw come up where Celebration, Tiftuf, and Tifgrand.
> 
> My opinion, and I believe the opinion of others, is that you have a lack of sunlight for Bermuda. You may be able to get by with one of the aforementioned shade tolerant cultivars and maybe the Lat 36. The options include - hope a shade tolerant version works, switch to zoysia or st aug that will get by with less light, turn the area into a non-turfgrass bed, and/or remove the tree.
> 
> ...


I actually went to the sod company to see if I could find a zoysia that would pair well with the 419.They had several varieties of Zoysia and I actually found one that wasn't wide blade,and had a dark green color,but the owner talked me out of it and told me that he thought the LAT 36 would work in the shaded area after seeing the pictures of it.I don't plan on living at this home for longer than four years and worst case if it thins out I will re sod with the zoysia I liked and I only paid $140 for the pallet.But honestly I do hope it works because they had an area of LAT 36 behind the store and it looked amazing.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

If your timeline is that short, I think I would have done the same thing.


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