# Please Help (Trees Died)(possible soil drainage issue)



## guru10cea (Apr 20, 2019)

Hello everyone. I'm Ray from Northern New Jersey.

My wife and I are so happy to come across this forum. We hope someone out there can help us figure out what to do next. Here's the problem summary:

- In October of 2018, we had our backyard renovated by a contractor. All old trees, pavers, rocks, railroad ties, etc. were removed and a new paved patio and walkway was built. As part of that project they also planted 10 new trees. The trees are "Green Sport Western Red Cedars" from Monrovia. I think the scientific name is "Thuja plicata".

- As winter ended/spring started, we noticed 5 of the 10 trees were turning brown or very light green. Friends and family said they were dead and would not come back. The other 5 had some areas that seemed to be dead branches or leaves, but generally looked healthy.

- We thought they may have died because we had a rough/windy winter, however, after we pulled out the dead trees, we are now wondering if they died from too much water (due to water not draining properly?). We are newbies when it comes to landscaping, so we are hoping that someone can help determine what to do next. We don't want to re-plant and then have the same problem again.

Attached below are pics from before the project, during the project, and more details about what we are seeing with the water. Does this seem like a water drainage issue? If so, what can be done to resolve it?

*Before* the renovation (viewing from street) -->



*Before* the renovation (viewing from backyard) -->



During the renovation -->



After the renovation (October 2018) -->



After the renovation (October 2018) -->



After the renovation (October 2018) -->



*April 2019* (Tree on right seems OK, but half of them were light green or brown like the one on the left) (pic was taken in early April; more recently they were yellow/brown) -->



While pulling out the dead trees yesterday, we noticed about 1.5 to 2 inches of water at the bottom of the hole. It had not rained since at least 24 hours earlier. This water was there even a few hours after we pulled out the tree. -->



Last night it rained. Each of the holes filled up with water and are still filled with water even though at least 3 hours have passed without rain (not sure if that is normal or not) -->


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## guru10cea (Apr 20, 2019)

It's over 24 hours since rainfall and those holes are still full with water... Is that normal?


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I'd say that's not normal at all. I'm not a mason, but I do know a few things about having drainage issues. Judging by the picture of the masons setting the first run of the wall, they didn't include any type of drain tile that would normally be used on the back side of the retaining wall. This would normally divert any collected water that would come to rest at the bottom of the wall to prevent it from weakening the structure. Judging by the last picture that you posted, they might have put in a water barrier to not allow any water to pass through, because there would be water on your patio if there wasn't. I surmise this because your patio still got that same beautiful color that it had when it was new (gorgeous patio too BTW) and it's not stained brown from the soil color.

If you were to install a french drain by your fence, it would be a simple fix where you wouldn't have to redo much, except plant new trees. It's an easy project, and can be done in a day. If you can divert the water downhill, and have a discharge further away from the patio, you'd be in good shape. NDS has a great website with some educational videos.


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## guru10cea (Apr 20, 2019)

Thanks Colonel!

The french drain sounds like a good idea. I spoke to the contractor today and he seemed to think that the soil may be clay or clay-like and that I should either:

A) get trees that can thrive in that type of water or 
B) do some type of drain (like you mentioned)

If I go with a french drain, I wonder if it should be along the fence or along the wall... I also wonder if each hole for the trees should have a channel to the drain (to make 100% sure that the holes don't hold water)... What do you think?

Note: I don't think they put any sort of water barrier on the wall, so its interesting that water isn't getting on the patio. Perhaps most of the water is actually running downhill and away from the house - but a lot is also getting trapped in the holes for the plants and drowning the plants?

Thanks for the link to the NDS site. I do see some helpful videos there.


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## jakemauldin (Mar 26, 2019)

I'm definitely not an expert in any way, shape, form. But upon looking at these pictures I noticed that when the trees were pulled the roots don't appear to have taken root in the native soil. They seem to have stayed in the same shape of the pots they came out of. I would think that would be due to the soil being so compacted they weren't able to take root. It could also be they never tried because roots search for water and it's possible the water always filled that hole. Then killing the trees. I would bet that you are correct they had too much water. I would not attempt finding a tree that could survive that amount of water exposure. The drain that @Colonel K0rn mentions would be ideal if the water is able to make it to the drain. If the water isn't penetrating the soil at all I would look into some soil aeration agents. Or possibly digging out a couple feet of clay and replacing it with topsoil so rooting can occur but I would do this as a last resort option since it would be somewhat costly.


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## guru10cea (Apr 20, 2019)

Thanks @jakemauldin

The trees have been planted for only about 6 months, so I wasn't sure if they didn't take root because of the soil composition or if they just haven't been there long enough... I have zero experience with this, so I don't know how long it would take for them to take root. Thanks for the ideas.

So far, I have received the following ideas and they are all bouncing around in my head:

*Option 1:* Just replant, but make sure they are planted in the manner for clay soil (see image below)
- pros: easy to do and inexpensive
- cons: since ball is higher, tree is more susceptible to being tipped over by wind?



The nursery where I bought the trees had suggested this.

In the diagram I found, there is mulch on top - but I would have rocks. If the rocks are part of the problem though, perhaps I should put mulch around the trees? Some of my research indicates a wider and more shallow hole, with the root ball raised higher, would allow them to better deal with the soil/water issue...

*Option 2:* Drill down in the holes to see if there is just a "clay layer" preventing water from draining
- pros: if there is just a layer that is the problem, creating some pathways should be easy and solve the problem?
- cons: ???

Note: trees were growing fine in this space before the patio project, so I believe something changed since the patio project (e.g., construction caused soil to change? rocks on top causing more compaction than before? landscaping fabric suffocating roots?)... or maybe the soil was always like this, but the previous trees thrived because the patio was not obstructing water flow?

*Option 3:* Raised bed for the trees
- pros: high probability of success for the trees?
- cons: would not go well with our particular landscape design? a lot of work/money?

For example -->



*Option 4:* French Drain
- pros: would divert water away from the general area
- cons: if planting holes still fill with water, trees could still drown? Eventually french drain will get clogged with debris?

If I do the french drain, I think I would have to be sure that water that gets into the planting holes would be able to make it to the french drain - and that, if it gets to the drain, that I don't end up with the opposite problem (water draining away from the tree too fast?).

*Option 5:* Find trees that can thrive in that type of water
- pros: easy to just plant some new / different type of trees
- cons: wife likes the trees we selected, unlikely to find tree that is aesthetically pleasing and / or able to survive that type of water, etc.

*Option 6:* dig out a couple feet of clay and replacing it with topsoil
- pros: high probability of success for the trees
- cons: a lot of work / money?

It would be nice if I could get away with option 1 and 2. But perhaps I should do 1, 2, and 4 to be safe?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Nothing to add to the stellar feedback / guidance you are already receiving but, this:

October, 2018?

That work, and most certainly those plants, have got to be under the UCR (usual, ustomary and reasonable) warranty of 12 months!!!!

Even if you don't want to fight with the contractor, see if you can get them to tell you where the plants came from ... (they possibly got them from a local big box like HomeDepot in which case, they will give you at least a credit, regardless of where fault lay for the plants not surviving "one year."

Best o' Success (beautiful area)! :thumbup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Before reading all post, just by looking at the images, might thought was hole was not large enough and was planted too low. Therefore I think a combination of 1 and 6.

The current hole looks to be exactly the same size as the pot. Most instructions say to go twice as wide and ~1.5 deep. You should also mix some of the native soil with the root ball soil (which means you might need to buy some topsoil). Run your hand thru the bottom of the root ball to ensure the roots are loose and not going in a circle. Lastly, don't use the fabric and rocks yet. Let the trees establish before adding them. The fabric is like a lid that prevents air and water movement. Go with traditional wood mulch first.

By the way, you do not need a French drain in my opinion. The wall looks to have gravel for drainage.


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## jakemauldin (Mar 26, 2019)

I would like to add. I would possibly get a soil test done. I know that you aren't planting grass here but it might tell you about your soil structure instead of trying to guess. And I would also try getting some Gypsum which would help loosen up that clay. I would apply it at 5 lbs/k SF. Then go back and see if those holes remain full of water. If not then you have easily fixed the issue. Hope this helps.


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