# washout



## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

We got just under a inch of rain yesterday in about a half an hour. My front yard looked like a river ran threw it and the back has a low collection area, that made a nice pond. I lost a lot of peat moss and what i didn't lose is all bunched up. My plan is to let it be for now as I'm 5 days in to my renovation and should have germination in the next 4 or 5 days. I did roll in the seed so I'm hoping that will help. I think i will be okay if i get everything replanted by sep. 1st. I have plenty of kbg left over and peat moss and starter fertilizer. One other concern i have is how thick my peat moss is where the water made a pond. What would you do and is there anything that i am missing. ( need help )


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I would probably wait a few days and see what comes up. you are still early enough to reseed areas that don't come up well. Assuming your seed washed out with the peat it may just germinate mixed in with the peat. I had one puddle in my spring reno and that was where the grass came up the thickest.


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## dacoyne (May 27, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> We got just under a inch of rain yesterday in about a half an hour. My front yard looked like a river ran threw it and the back has a low collection area, that made a nice pond. I lost a lot of peat moss and what i didn't lose is all bunched up. My plan is to let it be for now as I'm 5 days in to my renovation and should have germination in the next 4 or 5 days. I did roll in the seed so I'm hoping that will help. I think i will be okay if i get everything replanted by sep. 1st. I have plenty of kbg left over and peat moss and starter fertilizer. One other concern i have is how thick my peat moss is where the water made a pond. What would you do and is there anything that i am missing. ( need help )


Following this thread. I am in the same boat, *** seed, starter fert, peat moss and Tenacity all down last Thursday. Saturday night I had an hour long downpour. Lots of wash out but I have some babies coming up this morning. I am going to wait a few days to see what bare spots I have then throw down some more seed and peat moss in those areas. The most annoying thing about the rain is it undid a lot of my leveling job on the sloped area of my property.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

When I regrade, I use a tamper. I feel I can always aerate later or use air8 but I don't want the rain to wash it away. Works well for me. Also, I have seen very little settling of the soil after. I know this probably goes against what many would recommend but I figure eventually it'll settle anyway so why not hasten that process. It hasn't affected me growing grass so...


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

That is all good advice guys, as I'm sitting here crying in my beer i just looked out the window and can see grass babies. so i will know what i am dealing with in just a couple more days. Germination on day 6 is pretty good for all kbg. thanks guys


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I'm on day 9, Some areas I thought washed out have sprouted. Been reading a little on when others have addressed re-seeding and seems like day 14-15 Is re seeding day for the troubled spots. The flashlight check at night can really help find the struggling spots.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

ABC123 said:


> I'm on day 9, Some areas I thought washed out have sprouted. Been reading a little on when others have addressed re-seeding and seems like day 14-15 Is re seeding day for the troubled spots. The flashlight check at night can really help find the struggling spots.


I will have to try the flashlight at night trick. On my yard its becoming comparent to where i lost seed already because it not only washed out the seed it washed out the soil from current. Strong storms are predicted for Monday, so i will reseed probably Wednesday, that will be day 11.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

I'm in a similar boat. On Saturday I overseeded the entire yard and seeded bare spots (all with KBG, I know I know). Big project- worked from about 5 am to 2 pm straight. Hard work.

As soon as I finished cleaning up at 2, it down poured for 4 hours. We got almost 2.5 inches of rain.

Howver, luckily I used m-binder for the first time. I can honestly say that almost everything still looks intact. Obvious to say, I'm impressed.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

That must be some good stuff as i had peat moss 2 to 3 inches thick from the washout i had in some areas. I got just under a inch of rain in about a half an hour and will have to reseed some areas and that is with very little slope.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

NikeFace said:


> I'm in a similar boat. On Saturday I overseeded the entire yard and seeded bare spots (all with KBG, I know I know). Big project- worked from about 5 am to 2 pm straight. Hard work.
> 
> As soon as I finished cleaning up at 2, it down poured for 4 hours. We got almost 2.5 inches of rain.
> 
> Howver, luckily I used m-binder for the first time. I can honestly say that almost everything still looks intact. Obvious to say, I'm impressed.


I'm curious about this m-binder stuff. So it will basically "glue" your peat moss (and everything else) down to the ground? This is something you spray on with a hose end, backpack or something else?

Looks like Wednesday will be a bad thunderstorm and thinking of getting some of this but online ordering is probably out of the question due to timing. Can I buy some tips of tackifier at Home Depot or Lowe's?


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Have you looked at using Curlex in the areas with water runoff issues?

Some pictures would help.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

Big storm passing through my area today. I had some washout Friday and I'm assuming I'm going to get a lot more today. Crap.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Fellas, i toast all you and your washouts. Had one not even 2 hours after seed down. I have a 20%, 20 measly Percent chance, and it poured. 1" in about 20 minutes. Then, on day 4.... another 1.5 " in about 45-50 minutes. UGH!

However, at day 7, i have green fuzz (i seeded tttf), soooo some are still hanging on. I actually started my germination watering cycles 2 days prior to seed down to get the soil damp, (and it rained the night before). Then i dragged the rake with medium pressure just to get the last bit of debris up and scratch the soil. Then slung the seed, and drove over it 2 different directions with the riding mower.

Looks like starting wednesday i have 5-7 days of mid to upper 80's and sunny w/ 0% chance of rain. I'll probably reseed starting Wednesday.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Here is my forecast. Looks okay on paper but what the weather forecast this year has been wrong more than right...

What do you do with washed up piles of peat moss? Redistribute, leave it be or remove it completely?



Wednesday:


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Sharps: I am getting it again today, half inch already this morning and up to another inch this afternoon and evening. Ihavent had the real bad down pours, like the other day but am having a lot of ponding

Mozart: What i did was try raking it off and not try not to disturb the seed and fertilizer. Some of mine was 2 to 3 inches thick. Just be gentle with the rake and maybe let it dry out a little first.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

It's raining cats and dogs right now where I work (15 miles from home) and it's supposed to stay like this all afternoon. I'm expecting my front yard to be completely in the street by the time I get home.


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## Miller_Low_Life (Apr 12, 2017)

I aerated and over-seeded last Tuesday. I'm hoping some things settled because we're in the same boat. It starting raining yesterday and we're up to 3 inches already. It's supposed to stop tomorrow but I plan on going out with more grass seed and throwing it down in some dirt areas.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Mozart said:


> NikeFace said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in a similar boat. On Saturday I overseeded the entire yard and seeded bare spots (all with KBG, I know I know). Big project- worked from about 5 am to 2 pm straight. Hard work.
> ...


It was my first time using it but, yes, it seems to have held the seed and peat moss in place very well. It can be sprayed with water, but I sprinkled it as a dry power on top of the peat (which covered the seed).

As I mentioned we got a ton of rain immediately after I finished the project. The m-binder turned into a goo. It almost looks like mucus or something similar. Not sure how long/how many rain events it will last through though...

It appears to have worked on a big slope as well.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

NikeFace said:


> Mozart said:
> 
> 
> > NikeFace said:
> ...


It is hard to spread since it is a fine powder and breathing it in probably isn't a good idea. Also spreading it in a slight breeze is quite tricky... I use a spreader. It does work very well. I got tired of washout so this is a great solution. I just don't like that you need a lot of it.

This year, I'm trying PAM. Should be able to spray it so that'll be good and a small jug covers an acre so I don't need a lot and the price is much lower too.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> NikeFace said:
> 
> 
> > Mozart said:
> ...


Good to know, thanks.

I tried the spreader but the slightest breeze swept it way far away. I ended up doing it by hand, literally. I also ended up putting a mask on because the dust is so fine.

I went in pretty blind so my real fear is that I spread it to thin. I did just a coating. Again, it survived extremely heavy rain so that's good but not sure how many storms it would last.

If you think of it, please share the results of PAM. Could be good for future reference as I'm always battleing on big slope. Do you have a link or anything to share? I'm new to this...


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I wonder if the Wizz spreader by Scotts would be good at spreading fine powders. It was really quite nice for precision seed/fertilizer spreading and the lowest several settings were too small for KBG seed. Might work if treating a small area if held close to the ground?

https://www.target.com/p/10-5-h-han...VRySGCh2xBgkDEAQYASABEgLKVPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

I read somewhere on here that someone used the Wizz for m binder. Not sure where.

I imagine it would work better than the larger spreader, but this stuff is so fine that the slightest breeze blows it away. Not completely realistic, but picture trying to spread baby powder- it's like that. It literally looks like keef if you know what that is...

My thoughts were, unless I crouched way down, the Wizz probably increases the wind factor since it's higher up, and closer to my face... And, since I needed to crouch way down anyway, I opted to just do it by hand (and wouldn't need to reload my Wizz a hundred times).

On a perfectly still day, I agree Wizz would be smart. However, I'll likely try to spray it next time and ease most of these pain points.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

Awesome...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I hope you have more seed at hand. This doesnt look good.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> I hope you have more seed at hand. This doesnt look good.


I only have enough on hand to put down another 1#/1000 in the front. I initially seeded a little heavy at 3#/1000 of kbg. Should I reseed everything at 2#/1000 and worry about overcrowding down the road if I get that lucky?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

NikeFace said:


> Good to know, thanks.
> 
> I tried the spreader but the slightest breeze swept it way far away. I ended up doing it by hand, literally. I also ended up putting a mask on because the dust is so fine.
> 
> ...


Info about tackifiers. Probably more than you really wanted to know but...

m-binder I believe is this:
"Psyllium is composed of the finely ground coating of plantago seeds, and is applied as a dry powder or in a wet slurry to the surface of the soil. Although it dries to form a firm but re-wettable membrane that binds soil particles together, it permits germination and growth of seed. Psyllium should be sufficiently mixed and diluted to provide uniform flow for application rates of 80 to 200 pounds per acre. Note that this product requires a 12 to 18 hour drying time prior to the next precipitation event."

PAM is this:
"Polyacrylamide (PAM) and copolymer of acrylamide are packaged as a dry flowable solid and diluted at a rate of 11 pounds per 1,000 gallons of water. It is typically applied at a rate of 5 pounds per acre, or per the manufacturer's recommendations. Ensure that the product selected in anionic -- cationic products are toxic to aquatic environments. Stormwater flows from slopes with PAM above waterbodies should pass through a sediment trap or basin. Do not use PAM as a standalone practice, as its effectiveness improves significantly when combined with mulch."

I got the PAM here.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

NikeFace said:


> I read somewhere on here that someone used the Wizz for m binder. Not sure where.
> 
> I imagine it would work better than the larger spreader, but this stuff is so fine that the slightest breeze blows it away. Not completely realistic, but picture trying to spread baby powder- it's like that. It literally looks like keef if you know what that is...
> 
> ...


I put it in a watering can and hoped the holes at the end would allow me to essentially do a shower of the m-binder with water. It didn't work. The powder swelled up and clogged the holes. I ended up trying to pour it from a bucket but there was no way to really spread it. Ended up spreading it dry by hand and bending over to avoid the wind. It works well but I haven't found a great way to apply it. I'm hoping to spray PAM from a hand can so we'll see...


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

I ended up ordering enough to put down 1.5lb/1000 over the entire yard and also some m-binder. Am I at risk for killing what seedlings have come up by walking across the entire yard to spread more seed and binder? Maybe I can find a way to avoid this good areas?


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

KHARPS said:


> Am I at risk for killing what seedlings have come up by walking across the entire yard to spread more seed and binder?


Doesn't answer your question specially, but my young ones survived a blanket of snow cover. Probably not as heavy as standing on them. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1641&p=37100#p37100


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

KHARPS said:


> I ended up ordering enough to put down 1.5lb/1000 over the entire yard and also some m-binder. Am I at risk for killing what seedlings have come up by walking across the entire yard to spread more seed and binder? Maybe I can find a way to avoid this good areas?


I am walking on mine to move hoses around, trying to walk very gingerly. So far no real damage but i just planted it August 12


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> I am walking on mine to move hoses around, trying to walk very gingerly. So far no real damage but i just planted it August 12


Good point. I also need to rake up the heavy spots of peat moss that got washed into clumps from the rain but I think that might be too much on the seedlings. I didn't expect to get so anxious with this renovation but I think it's slowly killing me.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

kharps: I had areas that were 2 to 3 inches thick and i raked them out, just go easy with the rake.


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## STL (Jul 14, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> KHARPS said:
> 
> 
> > I ended up ordering enough to put down 1.5lb/1000 over the entire yard and also some m-binder. Am I at risk for killing what seedlings have come up by walking across the entire yard to spread more seed and binder? Maybe I can find a way to avoid this good areas?
> ...


Theyll be fine. Just be a little careful, especially with pivoting/turning around.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

@iowa jim @STL ok thanks guys. I think I'll wait until the dirt dries out a bit before I do anything. We've gotten around 2.5" of rain since Friday according to my rain gauge. I haven't ran the sprinklers since Sunday to try and let things dry up a bit. I am noticing more and more germination each day but it's pretty sparse.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I prefer to use a thin layer of grass clippings and/or thatch as a seed cover because once you lay it down it kind of weaves together and stays put even during very heavy downpours.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Thats a good idea, never thought of it. On the plus side it would have been free.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

We had a downpour last night around 1 AM. Lasted about 1 hour and dropped 0.5" of rain. Was loud enough to wake me up.

Fortunately everything stayed intact - without a tackifier. I was really surprised and very lucky! Could have been much worse.

Forecast is clear for the next week. :thumbup:


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

Glad to hear that @Mozart 
I continue to see new sprouts popping up but am certain I will have a lot of areas to address. I'm torn between adding the seed this Sunday, which would be day 12, or waiting until the following weekend to throw more seed out there at day 19. That should still put me in the window for acceptable seeding time here in the Chicago suburbs but it's pushing it.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

KHARPS said:


> Glad to hear that @Mozart
> I continue to see new sprouts popping up but am certain I will have a lot of areas to address. I'm torn between adding the seed this Sunday, which would be day 12, or waiting until the following weekend to throw more seed out there at day 19. That should still put me in the window for acceptable seeding time here in the Chicago suburbs but it's pushing it.


I spent 4 hours today reseeding some washed out areas, i had germination on day 6. I felt comfortable in knowing what needed reseeding and what didn't. It is only day ten for me. Wanted to get it done as early as possible for spoon feeding fertilizer and those leaves will be starting to fall soon.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Here we go again, had just under 4" of rain in the last 6 hours and its still raining. I'm on day 20 of my reno so i will probably be okay. I feel for anybody in Iowa that has planted in the last week or so. I also here that Pennsylvania has had there share of it to.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> NikeFace said:
> 
> 
> > I read somewhere on here that someone used the Wizz for m binder. Not sure where.
> ...


Could you buy a large jug of spice from Walmart that has the shaker top on it and use that? In my mind I'm imagining one of those huge jugs of garlic powder that has the lid with holes in it. Or even a container of carpet freshening powder? Refilling it may be more trouble than its worth but it would keep you from using your hands.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

Reseeded the washed out areas in my reno and added peat and m-binder today. We are currently getting pummeled with rain and my front yard is being washed away and the backyard is under water. Waste of time and money. This reno so far has been a terrible experience.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

We are getting hammered again today, any time you make the national weather channel its not good. Still more rain predicted for all of this week.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Guys, this is the risk we took with a reno. Most years it is not this bad. After my washout last week, today I had 93F, full sun and wind. It was a struggle to keep the area from drying.

So, what's next? First dont give up. Keep moving the seed and adding if you think it is gone. Start thinking of plan B and C if you dont already have one. Ryegrass is super fast in establishing and you could just kill it next year and try again, but you need to order it. Start researching your options.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Does anybody know how long 3 week old kbg can live being underwater? The reason i ask is that i have a collection area that was going good, but has been under water for 3 days now. Normally it drains okay but with all this rain it hasn't had a chance to.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I just checked the 3-7day forecast maps from weather.gov I think this could change based on the now hurricane path.


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