# From long to short........next year



## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Going to have my first try on a short lawn. Bought a new to me house a year ago and nursed the grass back to a wonderful healthy lawn. I believe it is Kentucky Blue Grass. I plan on scalping, sanding to level, overseed and mow short next spring. I guess my question from the experts is should I be doing anything this fall to help for next springs project? Thanx in advance!!!


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

What is your HOC now and what will you be cutting at next spring??


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I would confirm it is bluegrass, post some pics.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This year, I would do just the nitrogen. Next year after it starts to grow vigorously, then start to lower the hoc.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)




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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Extremely long due to rain. Definitely will break the 1/3 rule today.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)




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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Ok well there you go, The HOC was 3 1/2" this summer. The last few cuts I have been lowering little by little. The last 2 cuts have been at this height. 2"ish. You can see some yellowing where I am starting to cut into the crown. I applied 10/10/10 two weeks ago for the fourth application this growing year. That's where I am at so far. I can see some thatching in my future for sure.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would keep it at 2in until next year. Let it recover and develop at this height.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

G man, I want it shorter. Reel mower short. 3/4". I'm ready for the next level of a perfect lawn. Time to step up the game.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Winter is coming. Let it be at 2in then in spring start at 1 3/4 and start dropping the hoc. Baby steps.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

That's what I was thinking as well and when it gets short I plan to level, it has some bumps in it for sure.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Pugi said:


> Ok well there you go, The HOC was 3 1/2" this summer. The last few cuts I have been lowering little by little. The last 2 cuts have been at this height. 2"ish. You can see some yellowing where I am starting to cut into the crown. I applied 10/10/10 two weeks ago for the fourth application this growing year. That's where I am at so far. I can see some thatching in my future for sure.


My Bermuda was at 3.5" before I found TLF. I really like the look at 2" but Im up to 2.5" for now. My point is find the height you like and that works well for you grass...


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Pugi said:


> G man, I want it shorter. Reel mower short. 3/4". I'm ready for the next level of a perfect lawn. Time to step up the game.


I know you were probably being a little sarcastic but a shorter lawn doesn't make it next level perfect. Short lawn vs tall is basically just a matter of personal preference. Both can be "perfect"


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

+1 to @ksturfguy

I don't think there will ever be a perfect lawn, just the constant attempt to make it what you want.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

No offense meant, I have kept a very nice lawn in a longer cut for 20 years. I want to try short cut like a golf course for a change of pace.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

PGR will be your best friend.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I hear ya. I've thought about it but I have all TTTF and just not sure how it would handle it compared to KBG or a warm season grass. Also it seems like a real nice reel mower isn't cheap. Not sure I can justify 2 expensive mowers. Also I've heard maintenance like blade sharpening is a pain on a reel mower and not sure who around here would even work on them. So I've just kept mine tall.

Some people prefer the golf course fairway style lawn and some prefer the rough style lol


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

The third cutting at 2". Yellowing is starting to dissipate. Had are first frost last night. Will probably only get a couple more mows this year. I threw in a picture of Part of the back yard which did not yellow as much as the front.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

G-man has mentioned it and I have noticed the same thing, the TTTF is thriving just fine in my NoMix maintained around 3/4".


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Winding down the year. Only cut 1/2 to 3/4 inch on a weeks worth of growth. Went slow and enjoyed the mow.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Decided to go for the glory. She is as low as my rotary mower will go. 1 3/8 inch. I scalped in a few places but now I know the high spots. Picked up a bunch of thatch.


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

Are you buying a reel mower? That's the only way you can go lower than what you are at now.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Shindoman said:


> Are you buying a reel mower? That's the only way you can go lower than what you are at now.


Eventually I want to buy a reel mower. In the mean time I'll do what I can with what I have.


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

My advice with a rotary would be to cut it no lower than 2". Otherwise your grass will always be 
stressed and you'll be fighting a losing battle.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Shindoman said:


> My advice with a rotary would be to cut it no lower than 2". Otherwise your grass will always be
> stressed and you'll be fighting a losing battle.


Crossing my fingers, I hope to have a reel mower in a couple months


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I would also start with some soil surfactants and try to get the soil to hold more water, that's gong to be a big goal for me this year.

This can get cheap or expensive,


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## MarkAguglia (Jul 13, 2017)

I don't think you'll be doing your lawn any favors by mowing that short with your rotary mower. Why not wait until you get the reel mower to start lowering the HOC? It looks too early to even be mowing at all in Idaho. I see highs in the low 40s and lows in the teens.


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

Why can't he mow at 1 3/8" with a rotary mower?


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Kmartel said:


> Why can't he mow at 1 3/8" with a rotary mower?


You don't think scalping will be a constant issue mowing that low without a reel?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

As long as the blade is sharp, it will be ok. I mowed my lawn at 1.5in before getting a reel.

It is going to take some time to recover and adjust. You do want to try to maintain the 1/3 guideline (mow when it get no more than 2in high).


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Kmartel said:
> 
> 
> > Why can't he mow at 1 3/8" with a rotary mower?
> ...


I surely wouldn't recommend mowing at a height that resulted In constant scalping. But that would be the same recommendation if a reel or rotary was used. Based on the pictures and his description I see minimal scalping from initial mow. I see no reason to not continue at that height.

It seemed like there was a opinion ( recommendation?) from the crowd that you can't mow at his current height with a rotary and I looking for an explanation as to why. I haven't been given one yet.

If you can mow without scalping, breaking the 1/3 rule and get a good quality of cut, all while providing adaqute water and fertilizer to maintain root mass and a healthy turf stand then I don't care what you use to cut it.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

If you're gearing up to maintain it lower, filling in the low spots with sand for leveling, should help to reduce scalping.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Kmartel said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> > Kmartel said:
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Fair enough. I did see some scalping at the edge at the height he was cutting at, but your right, it's not bad. From my somewhat limited experience in cutting at 1 1/2" with a rotary, is it does seem to be prone to scalp bumpy or uneven areas. Maybe I haven't tried staying at a lower height long enough for it to even out though. With the spinning blade of a rotary mower, I wasn't sure you'd ever be able to get away from some scalping or uneven cutting at such low heights.

At some point you'll go low enough that a rotary won't be a option without scalping IMO. I was thinking 1 3/8" was past that point. If not I would think it's at least close to it.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

The idea of going low now was to get an idea of sand needs to level. The front yard is fairly flat. The back yard is pretty bumpy. I think sometimes we by nature tend to over complicate things. It's grass and it will be just fine rotary cutting at short levels. Would it look better with a reel mower, sure. The scalping that I did encounter will be delt with by sanding. The lawn is well cared for and irrigated. Besides, I can always raise the height if it does not work out.


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

My Logic behind not cutting low with a rotary is all about stress. When you cut with a rotary it tears the blades rather than shear them cleanly like a reel does. When that happens you stress the grass. It takes a bit of time to recover and when you cut short by the time it recovers you are past the 1/3 rule. That adds more stress to the plant. If you are constantly stressing the turf it will not be able to stay healthy.
I was amazed at how much better my turf looked when I switched from a rotary to a reel 4 years ago. 
Even cutting at the same height. 
Go ahead and cut low for now so you can do a better levelling job. I'm talking about continually mowing low with a rotary. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

What are the negatives to the turf from this tearing that occurs with a rotary mower and how does the turf recover from it?


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## Shindoman (Apr 22, 2018)

Kmartel said:


> What are the negatives to the turf from this tearing that occurs with a rotary mower and how does the turf recover from it?


Here's a good comparison to the benefits of a reel mower


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

ABC123 said:


> I would also start with some soil surfactants and try to get the soil to hold more water, that's gong to be a big goal for me this year.
> 
> This can get cheap or expensive,


Interesting you say that and I suppose it is due to our soils being different, but a big goal of mine is to have less moisture in my soil this year. More problems occur when the soil is too wet then dry and I think it's important to keep the soil alittle drier in the spring and have some amount of controlled stress to help prepare for the summer months.



Shindoman said:


> My Logic behind not cutting low with a rotary is all about stress. When you cut with a rotary it tears the blades rather than shear them cleanly like a reel does. When that happens you stress the grass. It takes a bit of time to recover and when you cut short by the time it recovers you are past the 1/3 rule. That adds more stress to the plant. If you are constantly stressing the turf it will not be able to stay healthy.
> I was amazed at how much better my turf looked when I switched from a rotary to a reel 4 years ago.
> Even cutting at the same height.
> Go ahead and cut low for now so you can do a better levelling job. I'm talking about continually mowing low with a rotary.
> Just my 2 cents.


I agree, the turf will need to use more energy to repair a torn leaf tip compared to a clean cut. Continually doing that will have a negative impact as the year goes on. Cutting low already adds an amount of stress to the plant.

I think if you plan on mowing lower with a rotory it will be important to keep a sharp mower blade as @g-man mentioned.

Most lawns are not pool table smooth and I think that's the biggest issue with lower mowing with a rotory. By design a greens type reel with a full front and rear roller will follow contours and handle imperfections much better. If one wheel hits a dip on a rotory, you scalp at a low height. My yard has alot of contours, and a 54" rotory scalps below 2.5" but the reels can handle .625"-.750" no problem.

In the end, if the scalping is minimal and the quality of cut is ok to you, then go for it! :thumbsup: and eventually if and when you get a reel mower I will guarantee you will be blown away by difference in cut quality!


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

Shindoman said:


> Kmartel said:
> 
> 
> > What are the negatives to the turf from this tearing that occurs with a rotary mower and how does the turf recover from it?
> ...


This doesn't answer any of my questions. Enthusiasm and excitement for low cut turf with a reel mower doesn't explain how turf recovers from rotary mower damage and why it would be greater at low HOC.

PUGI- good luck with your lawn, I wouldn't be concerned with your mowing height and rotary mower. If your mower gave a satisfactory cut before I don't see how anything has changed. Same grass, same mower. Keep it out if the dirt and your gonna love that results.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Kmartel said:


> Shindoman said:
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> > Kmartel said:
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So just to be clear, you don't feel a reel would give a better cut or stress the turf less than a rotary mower? Don't you feel continually scalping bumps and dips will lead to unnecessary stress on the turf? I'm not saying not to do it and if it works for the op then great, but in general terms continually stressing can have a bad effect on the grass especially when you get to summer time. A thinner stand with shorter roots could be some of the issues. Plus others such as being more prone to fungus as the turf is under stress to my understanding.

I suppose it's yard to yard dependant and if you've had better results cutting low with a rotary then I guess maybe you'll have a different opinion, but if cutting low with a rotary gave as good a cut as a reel why wouldn't golf courses just use a rotary mower?

Not trying to be argumentative or anything but you seem to really be defending cutting with a rotary being the same as a reel. To my understanding when the HOC gets lower the cut quality is no where near the same.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

When a rotary cuts a leaf, it whacks it. This action could result in shredded bits and torn veins depending on the speed of the blade, the sharpness and the grass type (TTTF vs ***). The end result is a leaf structure that has a larger surface area to bleed and to heal. This also increases the area that disease could enter the plant. I normally see the damage travel towards the crown until it recovers, so but in a short mow lawn, there is less leaf to travel back to.

The mode of cutting of a reel is like using a scissor. It produces a straight single cut that heals faster. Of course this is also dependent on a sharp reel that is properly setup (reel to bedknife distance) and the grass type.

Dr. Beard had this observation. https://listings.lib.msu.edu/trsum/1973.pdf#page=9 
https://a-c-s.confex.com/crops/2009am/webprogram/Paper55856.html


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Great conversation all, my equipment is always top notch with sharp blades, I mow about a dozen yards per week as a side job. It's funny that nearly all the yards are KBG and the requests from home owners about the HOC are all over the board between 2" to 4 1/2" and with that the grass adapts to the height. I do agree that a reel provides a cleaner cut and eventually I will have one. Until than this experiment will continue with the rotary. A first concern is how level I will get the ground with applying sand with the hoc at present height.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Thought I should include a pic of the back yard. Aside from the brown spot from the dog it barely got any scalping from the short mow and is looking good. I did in both front and back yards get a couple drag marks from mower. Again with some sand and leveling should eleiminate those problems.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Pugi

Please keep us updated. Your project is quite interesting. I think many of us will be interested in your progress (I certainly am). As much as I would like to go "reel low", I have too many challenges ahead of me, so I will try to stay relatively low (2"-2.5") this year, which is considerably lower than the past few years (3.5"-4"). I am quite interested on how intensive the maintenance will be with your project.

Thanks and good luck!


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Check out that turf for dethatching this spring. Do it sooner rather than later. Mowing low creates a lot more clippings.

Eta: I never liked the cut my timemaster gave on my KBG monostand at the last place under 2 inches. I always ended up with yellow spots. But ymmv.


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## NewLawnJon (Aug 3, 2018)

Pugi said:


> Great conversation all, my equipment is always top notch with sharp blades, I mow about a dozen yards per week as a side job. It's funny that nearly all the yards are KBG and the requests from home owners about the HOC are all over the board between 2" to 4 1/2" and with that the grass adapts to the height. I do agree that a reel provides a cleaner cut and eventually I will have one. Until than this experiment will continue with the rotary. A first concern is how level I will get the ground with applying sand with the hoc at present height.


Not sure what your budget is, or the part of Idaho you are in, but in Billings, MT they have JD 260C mowers for $235 which would better at putting your money towards than sand to start going lower. The reel mowers tend to be less sensitive to small changes in level due to the larger rollers than rotary mowers, and the shorter you get the grass the easier the leveling is.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> Interesting you say that and I suppose it is due to our soils being different, but a big goal of mine is to have less moisture in my soil this year. More problems occur when the soil is too wet then dry and I think it's important to keep the soil alittle drier in the spring and have some amount of controlled stress to help prepare for the summer months.


Yeah but soil is just a growing medium that holds onto nutrients and it's crazy how much calcium I have. But it seems like we need to focus more on oxygen and trying to limit LDS. But to understand lds we need to understand evapotranspiration and hydrophobic soils.

I had some areas that got too wet and seemed to depelet the area of oxygen as soil needs to breathe. Being that it's all new soil I should try to get heavy on the organics but where's the limit to where fungus will be a problem? It's all balancing out fungus populations in a non controlled environment.

Is it spring yet? :lol:


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Those dog spots are probably from excess urea and can be hydrophobic. Some surfactant and water to break up the salts and if you want to add some type of sugar to promote a quick energy source will help it fill in quicker.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

ABC123 said:


> Is it spring yet? :lol:


Meteorogical spring 

Last year was a wet and humid year here and in most parts. That made things a challenge with soils staying wet. I haven't witness any LDS or hydrophobic issues on my soil. I'm hoping for a year that will be alittle drier. Easier to add H2O then subtract it.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

The grass is starting to color up. I have been mowing trying to use the 1/3 rule. Every time I go a different direction and find a few new high spots. With the ground so soft and wet I literally just jump up and down on the high spot to smash them down.


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

The greenest part of my back yard. I can start to see the grass spread more outward and fill in. I'm mowing twice a week. I've also learned how to run the mower to minimize scalping. Run it gingerly and set the front tires down softly on the turns.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@@Pugi

Nice! What is your HOC?


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## Pugi (Oct 5, 2018)

Chris LI said:


> @@Pugi
> 
> Nice! What is your HOC?


As low as the rotary will go. 1 1/4"


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Pugi said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> > @@Pugi
> ...


Looks good. I've been lurking in this thread for a while gathering as much info as I can. I'm in the process of lowering my HOC so I can bring out the 260sl. My lawn is not super level so I'm getting a few scalp that I'll need to level. Otherwise my 1.75" HOC with the rotary has been better than expected


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