# Help with poor soil/soil crusting- causing grass issues



## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

I have several trouble areas in my lawn . For a couple years I've tried to remedy them and am losing the fight.

The first pic is what the soil looked like Spring '17. Garbage soil. Really compact, doesn't seem to absorb water. 
Hard as a rock, cracks, etc. This picture represents what the soil in the other areas look like.

Before planting our new lawn in Fall '17, we tilled these areas, added peat moss, compost (admittedly, not enough I'm sure).
They have been core aerated at least 3 times since then with peat most spread over the areas, a couple treatments of milorganite, the usual fertilizer applications... basically everything we can think to do to improve these areas.

The new grass has always struggled in these areas.

I was assuming adding organic materials and aeration would drastically improve things.

I did mix up some of the Kelp Help and Soil Conditioner liquids, hoping they might provide some assistance. Havent tried it yet.

What can we do to solve this problem? Remove it and add good topsoil?










And the end result of my bad soil spots
The lighting really makes a difference. Doesn't look that bad in the next 2 pics.



















Same spot, earlier in the day. Looks awful










Looks like not enough water... I dont think water can penetrate the soil crusting









This one is probably the worst. Nothing has ever grown correctly here.
You can see the previous ones in the background/top of the image










Most of the yard looks okay, except for the 3 or 4 bad spots. You can see a couple in the top of this pic










Edit:
A couple soil samples for good measure. 
These were taken before any above steps were attempted. 
Pretty ugly- probably need to have a new test done.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Craigdt, there has to be something wrong with your soil. I would sample that bad section and then some other random sections of the good areas of the yard. I would send them to waypoint analytical and request the two samples to be tested as SW1 (for high pH).

Second, when sampling, try to go straight down (8in) with a shovel and feel for debris, construction debris.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

That does look like drought stress.
What is the background for the two tests (why 2, different areas, different soils, different depths)? Any reason that they are different in reported results (pH and P)? What is your water regiment? What specific amendments have you applied since Spring of 2017, how much and when? Besides peat moss and compost, what did you till in?


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> That does look like drought stress.
> What is the background for the two tests (why 2, different areas, different soils, different depths)? Any reason that they are different in reported results (pH and P)? What is your water regiment? What specific amendments have you applied since Spring of 2017, how much and when? Besides peat moss and compost, what did you till in?


These samples were taken before I attempted to do anything. 
I took the samples from 2 different spots, same back yard, about 100 feet apart. 1 spot that had gray, nasty soil like in the first Pic(this is the fist soil sample) , and 1 spot that had visually somewhat better soil (second sample).
Im tempted to remove these samples from the post since I took these when I had no idea what I was doing and I don't know that I trust the lab. They are probably bad results. I'm waiting on a soil sample probe to send off for new results.

Water regimine- 1" every week. Usually spread across 3 days a week.

Amendments:
Milorganite at suggested rate in Fall '17 and May 28 ' 18.

Nitrogen at 1.25 pounds Fall '17 and April' 18.

A couple layers of 1/4" peat moss over bad areas since Fall '17.

Nothing but peat moss and compost tilled in.

Also- the yard was neglected for years prior to recently. The previous owner didn't do much. It appears that the soil has been bad and nothing growing in these spots for a long time until I tried to grow nice fescue...


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

It appears you can get fescue to grow in those areas but they are being stressed.
Sample that area and submit those samples separately for soil testing. Follow recommended sampling technique for gathering samples. Those areas have an initial reported pH of 8.1 vs the rest of the lawn's 5.4. That makes it nearly 1000 times less acidic. Very unusual for a typical yard, especially considering that you see a visual difference in the soil color and texture. As g-man suggested, you'll want a specific type of testing done for that area and a different test done for the areas with the lower pH. Whichever lab you select to preform testing, I suggest you request a soil salinity (EC/electrical conductivity or salt index, whatever the lab may name it) test done. Some labs include it in the test package/battery, some don't.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> It appears you can get fescue to grow in those areas but they are being stressed.
> Sample that area and submit those samples separately for soil testing. Follow recommended sampling technique for gathering samples. Those areas have an initial reported pH of 8.1 vs the rest of the lawn's 5.4. That makes it nearly 1000 times less acidic. Very unusual for a typical yard, especially considering that you see a visual difference in the soil color and texture. As g-man suggested, you'll want a specific type of testing done for that area and a different test done for the areas with the lower pH. Whichever lab you select to preform testing, I suggest you request a soil salinity (EC/electrical conductivity or salt index, whatever the lab may name it) test done. Some labs include it in the test package/battery, some don't.


So once the results are in, is there a way to correct this, or do I need to physically remove it and bring in new topsoil?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> So once the results are in, is there a way to correct this, or do I need to physically remove it and bring in new topsoil?


Hopefully, the soil test will help identify the problem. Your soil test from before you did anything, shows high P and K values. This could be sampling error, or more likely amendments done prior to you. Maybe someone was trying to "fix" the lawn for sale. If it as a salt problem, time and water can wash it out. If it's a sodic issue, there are ways to try to correct it. If it's an extreme nutrient issue, that can be corrected. If it's a soil texture issue, there are things you can do, possibly just adjusting watering technique or a wetting agent.
Wait and see what, if anything, shows up on the test.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

In the meantime, you can try improving water penetration and test for that issue. Purchase a hose end sprayer at a big box (about $20) and buy some plain shampoo, one without conditioners or additives.
White Rain is a cheap one that's appropriately priced at about $1 at the Dollar Store. Apply the shampoo to the bad performing areas at 3-6 oz/thousand square feet and water it in. See if you observe any improvement in the grass and difference in how well the soil takes in water the next time you water. Once you get the soil test probe, you can take a core sample from both areas and compare soil profile and texture. Also using the soil sample a day before and after watering can let you see how deep the water is penetrating.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I lived in Kansas City and i think one inch a week would not be enough. Something closer to 1.5in should be. But it doesn't explain what you are seeing. What is to the left of this area. I see like pavers. Is that a garage? I think the soil test will be the best thing to try to understand what is different. Maybe the previous owner dump something in this area.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> I lived in Kansas City and i think one inch a week would not be enough. Something closer to 1.5in should be. But it doesn't explain what you are seeing. What is to the left of this area. I see like pavers. Is that a garage? I think the soil test will be the best thing to try to understand what is different. Maybe the previous owner dump something in this area.


The pavers are in front of a little shed. The owners are known lovers of pouring concrete... Really tempted to dig down and see if anything is down there.

For whatever it's worth, it's the Heatwave blend from Grass Pad which is drought and heat resistant supposedly.

Also, the areas not struggling seem to be thriving on the 1" quantity of water.

It definitly seems like those areas aren't able to absorb the available water.

I will also try increasing the amount of water to see if that helps.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Grab a shovel and dig a square foot section. You don't have grass there, so there is not much to loose other than getting dirty.

This is what I found in a struggling area. The builder buried a yard of gravel. I'm not done digging it out.


When i first saw your post and results, the first thing that came to mind is a concrete washout spot. The soil test should really help.


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## nocsious (May 14, 2018)

craigdt said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > I lived in Kansas City and i think one inch a week would not be enough. Something closer to 1.5in should be. But it doesn't explain what you are seeing. What is to the left of this area. I see like pavers. Is that a garage? I think the soil test will be the best thing to try to understand what is different. Maybe the previous owner dump something in this area.
> ...


The heatwave mix is their best fescue blend for our area. I wrote down the cultivars last time I bought some, but I can't remember anymore but they were good varieties. They do change that mix from year to year though.


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## Tsmith (Aug 11, 2017)

Does it get hot and dry where you are? It looks like you need to water more and may want to consider planting a tree to give the bad area some shade if it's getting toasted.

Improving soil is not a quick fix and will take years and a lot of work that doesn't show immediate results. Aeration is a temporary solution but you will usually end up right back where you are. If you do aerate might be a good idea to drop some compost in the holes to get some organic matter mixed directly into your soil.

Add as much organic matter as you can. Mulch Leaves, compost, grains, etc...really anything you can get your hands on and keep doing it every year.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Tsmith said:


> Does it get hot and dry where you are? It looks like you need to water more and may want to consider planting a tree to give the bad area some shade if it's getting toasted.
> 
> Improving soil is not a quick fix and will take years and a lot of work that doesn't show immediate results. Aeration is a temporary solution but you will usually end up right back where you are. If you do aerate might be a good idea to drop some compost in the holes to get some organic matter mixed directly into your soil.
> 
> Add as much organic matter as you can. Mulch Leaves, compost, grains, etc...really anything you can get your hands on and keep doing it every year.


Yes, Im in the great Kansan Wastelands so it gets really hot and dry.

We just planted a couple of trees last fall to try to help the situation. Ill let you know in 15 years if it helps :lol:

We have been spreading peat moss after aeration, at least twice since last fall. Guess we will stick with it.
Also started a leaf compost pile to start using.

I dont bag my grass clippings either, so hopefully this will start making a difference eventually.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> Grab a shovel and dig a square foot section. You don't have grass there, so there is not much to loose other than getting dirty.
> 
> This is what I found in a struggling area. The builder buried a yard of gravel. I'm not done digging it out.
> 
> ...


Digging will commence tonight.

I'll let you know what we find.

Wouldn't surprise me if the largest area was a concrete wash spot. 
The previous owners must have had a thing for concrete. 
They dumped it everywhere.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

nocsious said:


> craigdt said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


Yes, this stuff is awesome. Dramatically better than any other seed I've tried.

The bags I got the last 2 times I ordered were:

33%- Van Gogh
22%- Falcon H20
22%- Renegade DT
23%- Finelawn H20


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> It appears you can get fescue to grow in those areas but they are being stressed.
> Sample that area and submit those samples separately for soil testing. Follow recommended sampling technique for gathering samples. Those areas have an initial reported pH of 8.1 vs the rest of the lawn's 5.4. That makes it nearly 1000 times less acidic. Very unusual for a typical yard, especially considering that you see a visual difference in the soil color and texture. As g-man suggested, you'll want a specific type of testing done for that area and a different test done for the areas with the lower pH. Whichever lab you select to preform testing, I suggest you request a soil salinity (EC/electrical conductivity or salt index, whatever the lab may name it) test done. Some labs include it in the test package/battery, some don't.


Who would you suggest for the soil salinity test?

Im looking at Logan Labs and A&L Great Lakes. 
Im not seeing that test listed for either of them.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

That's my bad, one of the most common names for the test is "Soluble Salts" and I left it out. Look for that. I'm pretty sure A&L and Waypoint both identify their test by that term.



> Who would you suggest for the soil salinity test?


Practically any lab you pick will offer the test. If it's not listed under one of the terms I gave, most likely "Soluble Salts." If you don't see ot listed with the lab you want to use, ask them when you call to varify prices for testing. Shop around, prices vary a lot, even between labs under the same name, depending on the lab location. For instance, the same test at the Waypoint Il. or Waypoint Ca. lab might be twice as costly as it is at the Waypoint Memphis lab.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

For Waypoint Memphis i thin it is the SW3

SW3	= SW1 plus Nitrate-N and Soluble Salts (1:2)

SW1 = pH, buffer pH, Organic matter, CEC, % Cation saturations
Olsen P
Ammonium Acetate (K, Mg, Ca, Na)
Mehlich 3 (P, B, S, Fe, Mn, Cu, Zn)

I dont know the cost of that one. Give them a call and ask. They have a nice customer service.

A&L great lakes, I think the S11. Give them a call to confirm.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

g-man's post reminds me. Besides the test for soluable salsts, you'll want to have your 8.1 pH soil tested using ammonium acetate extraction and Olsen, also it would be good to include results for micros like Zn, B, Cu and Mn.
If you decide to have the pH 5.4 soil tested too, that will be a separate test and cost. You don't need the soluble salts test and you can have them use the Mehlich 3 test for all nutrients, once again good to have that report include the micros too. See g-man post above for guidance.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> Grab a shovel and dig a square foot section. You don't have grass there, so there is not much to loose other than getting dirty.
> 
> This is what I found in a struggling area. The builder buried a yard of gravel. I'm not done digging it out.
> 
> ...


Small Update:
Dug 2 quantity 14"-16" holes holes. Really expected to find something down there, but nothing but dirt.

Strangely, one hole had noticeably redder dirt than the other hole.

Also, in the "red dirt" hole, an odd black layer was on the top.
Possibly decomposing peat moss?

I am sending off a sample to Waypoint.
Other than the basic stuff and soluble salt/electrical conductivity, anything special I should request?


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

10 yards of compost spread 1/4" will do wonders. It will help with moisture retention as well as lowering your PH.


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