# Northernlights Nitrogen questions



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> northernlights536 said:
> 
> 
> > I understand this can go down on new sod. My sod is 4weeks old. Mowed twice. next mowing is tomorrow to try and bring the high down on the KBG.
> ...


So basically I could do the .5 and put down slightly more that 2.16 lbs bi-weekly?

The urea I have I just bought online and yes it was more than I should pay but I am not sure if it's quick release or not.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q6LYGVP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Our temps this week are in the upper 90's so not sure if I should wait till the weekend when it cools down. I've never applied urea before and other than mowing the lawn and plucking out some dandelions that is all I've ever done with a lawn. Now I got a new lawn I'd like to do what I need to to keep it healthy and weed free.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@northernlights536 1lb of Urea will net you 0.46lb N per 1,000 sq. ft. No need to be so precise with measuring to get exactly 0.5lb N. Do this bi-weekly. You can also do 0.23lb N every week (0.5lb Urea per 1,000 sq. ft.). Up to you.

I have been applying 0.23lb N every week since June, including with temps in the mid to upper 90s. Just make sure you water it in.


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

[/quote]

So basically I could do the .5 and put down slightly more that 2.16 lbs bi-weekly?

The urea I have I just bought online and yes it was more than I should pay but I am not sure if it's quick release or not.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q6LYGVP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Our temps this week are in the upper 90's so not sure if I should wait till the weekend when it cools down. I've never applied urea before and other than mowing the lawn and plucking out some dandelions that is all I've ever done with a lawn. Now I got a new lawn I'd like to do what I need to to keep it healthy and weed free.
[/quote]

That urea you have is fast release.

IMO with you being fairly new to lawn care and never used urea before (especially fine prill you have) I would stick with an organic fertilizer. No risk of burning.

How are you spreading this urea?

I would get the basics down first eg: proper irrigation, mowing, amount/ often with fertilizer apps. 
Get some milo and get that down. 
This is all just my opinion... you can do some harm with urea is your not careful.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

So basically I could do the .5 and put down slightly more that 2.16 lbs bi-weekly?

The urea I have I just bought online and yes it was more than I should pay but I am not sure if it's quick release or not.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q6LYGVP/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Our temps this week are in the upper 90's so not sure if I should wait till the weekend when it cools down. I've never applied urea before and other than mowing the lawn and plucking out some dandelions that is all I've ever done with a lawn. Now I got a new lawn I'd like to do what I need to to keep it healthy and weed free.
[/quote]

That urea you have is fast release.

IMO with you being fairly new to lawn care and never used urea before (especially fine prill you have) I would stick with an organic fertilizer. No risk of burning.

How are you spreading this urea?

I would get the basics down first eg: proper irrigation, mowing, amount/ often with fertilizer apps. 
Get some milo and get that down. 
This is all just my opinion... you can do some harm with urea is your not careful.
[/quote]

*Handheld scotts spreader is what I have. How do you tell if its fast release or organic?

I have an irrigation system - just started backing off from daily watering.*


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

@northernlights536 it says on the bag 100% soluble, meaning it will dissolve with water right away "fast release "compared to a fertilizer that is insoluble, it slowly breaks down over time "slow release" 
Urea is a synthetic fertilizer.

I think you'll have issues getting even coverage using a handheld spreader with fine prilled urea if you've never done it before.

I suggest using Milorganite or something similar. You'll still get great results with very little risk.

Whats the reason why you want to do a fall Nitrogen blitz if you have new sod?


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> @northernlights536 it says on the bag 100% soluble, meaning it will dissolve with water right away "fast release "compared to a fertilizer that is insoluble, it slowly breaks down over time "slow release"
> Urea is a synthetic fertilizer.
> 
> I think you'll have issues getting even coverage using a handheld spreader with fine prilled urea if you've never done it before.
> ...


It was suggested by another user (harts) in the forum.


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

northernlights536 said:


> Justmatson said:
> 
> 
> > @northernlights536 it says on the bag 100% soluble, meaning it will dissolve with water right away "fast release "compared to a fertilizer that is insoluble, it slowly breaks down over time "slow release"
> ...


Ahh.. 
@Harts he knows his stuff but may not be aware that you've never used urea.
I do think you should push the new sod but there's better/ safer ways to do it especially if you don't have much experience with fertilizer and spreaders. 
Still think you should use an organic fertilizer (milo) you should get some phosphorus in there to help out those roots.

Did you use any fertilizer before putting down the sod?

If you decide to use that urea, go light, like .25lbs/n 
(½lb of urea/1000sq. ft.) and water in right away. See how it responds over a week.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@northernlights536 I split your topic into its own thread.

Don't over analyze this. If you go at 0.25lb of nitrogen/ksqft weekly you will be fine. Milo will work for the next month too. Spread evenly and water it in.


----------



## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Everyone would have more fun if they just pretended that urea is 50% N.

:thumbup:


----------



## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I always find this site useful for calculating fert.

http://www.rs.uky.edu/soil/calculators/Calculatorold.htm


----------



## MJR12284 (Jun 21, 2020)

That is a great resource @ABC123 because I am terrible at math!


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

As long as you water it in there is little to no risk of burning. Organics like Milo are great too.

I've used a hand held spreader and even just my hand.

As g-man said, don't over think it. And don't be scared of using urea. As long as it gets watered in, you will be just fine.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> northernlights536 said:
> 
> 
> > Justmatson said:
> ...


*No fertilizer was put down when the sod went down per say but two days afterwards the installer came back and put some organic fertilizer down. I don't know what it was other than it was pretty rank - had a pretty good odor.

Maybe that is what you meant.*

*On Thursday of this week it will be 4 weeks since the install.*


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

This is the lawn as of today......

Those weeds in my new sod grow pretty fast. I mowed yesterday morning around 1030 and they seem to have grown by an inch already.

The point of this post was I have not watered it yesterday or today. Yesterday in spots by the tree it felt pretty wet yet.

I am wondering if I should start watering again tomorrow and go every other day or give it one more day to dry out? Today is going to be another mid to high 90's. I think by friday it's going to cool off.

I just ask because it will depend on when I put the urea down so it gets watered in right away.

Thx.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I apologize. How old is the sod?


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Harts said:


> I apologize. How old is the sod?


4 weeks on Thursday.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You can probably switch to every other or 3rd day. You be watering longer and more infrequently now. Weather will play a part in this too. If it's really hot, it might need more.

You want to keep dialing it back until you are at 1-1.5" each week from 2-3 waterings.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Sounds good ---- I still cannot get over how much crab grass is in this sod. The amount by the driveway came up right away and today I can now see it completely through the entire yard.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Make sure to get a pre-emergent app down next Spring (approx. April).


----------



## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Are you sure it's crabgrass? The timing isn't right, and the pics looked more like annual rye.

Crabgrass is just going to seed now.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Sinclair said:


> Are you sure it's crabgrass? The timing isn't right, and the pics looked more like annual rye.
> 
> Crabgrass is just going to seed now.


I just assumed it was some sort of crab grass. Maybe someone here can help identify so I am calling it correct and understand how to make it go away. There is another weed as I would call it popping up all over the lawn too.

Here are photos of them. I just walked the yard again and both of these are found all throughout the yard.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The last two look like orchardgrass. I think they advise we gave you was to go out there and hand pull them all. It would be the most effective thing you could do right now with weeds on a new sod install.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Is the light green maybe Large Crabgrass?

Looks pretty similar to this: https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/large-crabgrass/

Says its annual so does that mean it does not die out?


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

northernlights536 said:


> Is the light green maybe Large Crabgrass?
> 
> Looks pretty similar to this: https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/large-crabgrass/
> 
> Says its annual so does that mean it does not die out?


Large crabgrass has little hairs, you can see that in that link. The pic you posted doesn't have those hairs.
I don't believe that's crabgrass either.

Annual means it will die off over winter.
Perennial means it'll come back year after year.

Crabgrass is an annual but the reason why some see it every year is it'll drop thousands of seeds each year then germinates the following year when soil temps climb above 55f. 
Hence why we use a pre emergent in spring before the soil temps get to 55f.
Use a pre emergent in the fall to help control poa annua the following year as well.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

I see your point now... about the tiny hairs.....

I sent an email to my local extension office not sure they do any weed identification but thought I would give it a try.

I am sure by now g-man and others find I am OCD. I started pulling it the other day but after an hour in only one area I gave up.

I have only ever dealt with sod twice. First time was about 7 years ago I had my back yard sodded but I bought the sod and installed it myself - totally different supplier than my current sod guy. Never had any of these plants "weeds" as I call them in that batch.

Then just now with my front lawn. In the sod industry not sure if this is common or I just got a crappy sod company/batch or what.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Every member here has some form of OCD with lawn care. But that's what makes our lawns stand out in the neighbourhood.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

I figured as much... my OCD is one I'd like a nice lawn and secondly I paid $4k for this install.


----------



## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> Crabgrass is an annual but the reason why some see it every year is it'll drop thousands of seeds each year then germinates the following year when soil temps climb above 55f.
> Hence why we use a pre emergent in spring before the soil temps get to 55f.
> Use a pre emergent in the fall to help control poa annua the following year as well.


Is crabgrass able to be eradicated? I was going to post a thread today, but you brought it up.

It would seem that you'd eventually kill off the seeds over time with the preemergent.


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

turfnsurf said:


> Justmatson said:
> 
> 
> > Crabgrass is an annual but the reason why some see it every year is it'll drop thousands of seeds each year then germinates the following year when soil temps climb above 55f.
> ...


Yes you can absolutely eradicate crabgrass. There are selective herbicides for crabgrass. Tenacity, Quinclorac is the go to for most. 
Keeping up with spring and fall pre emergents will definitely help. 
Issue with crabgrass seeds or other weed seeds is they can lay dormant for many years until the right conditions develop.

Some may take a break from applying a pre emergent because they haven't seen anything for a few years. Another option to why it can appear again is disturbing the soil or bringing in soil/ compost/ sand etc that contains weed seeds.

This info is based off research and reading what others have done/ said. I actually don't see much crabgrass in my area.

Sure some others will chime in if there's more to add or correct any of my info.

Any other questions please let any of us know.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

To eradicate, you need to kill all the birds dropping seeds via their poop. Stop all the wind from getting to your yard. Keep all the shoes, dogs paws off your lawn. Don't plant the seeds that show up in the mail.

Or just do PreM in the spring.


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

g-man said:


> Don't plant the seeds that show up in the mail.


The ones from China? :lol:


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Any country or even from another state. What if it is Bermuda seed?


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Ok thanks... points taken.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

What spreader is better for the lawn... ? I only have a hand spreader .... thinking maybe I should invest in a better one.

There are drop and broadcast ones..... any suggestions?

Also if using for the Urea is the setting still to the first one until all product is gone?


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

northernlights536 said:


> What spreader is better for the lawn... ? I only have a hand spreader .... thinking maybe I should invest in a better one.
> 
> There are drop and broadcast ones..... any suggestions?
> 
> Also if using for the Urea is the setting still to the first one until all product is gone?


I use one of those cheap Scotts edge guard spreaders. Had no issues with it.

I use setting 3.5 on that particular spreader for my urea (comes in different size prills) it allows me to go north/ south, east/west, then north/south again.

You want to go in opposite directions at least once. Helps with even coverage or else you'll get fertilizer stripes


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

I think I asked but cannot remember... can I mow and then put the urea down?

We are going to get rain Sunday night into Monday morning.


----------



## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

northernlights536 said:


> I think I asked but cannot remember... can I mow and then put the urea down?
> 
> We are going to get rain Sunday night into Monday morning.


Yes


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

northernlights536 said:


> What spreader is better for the lawn... ? I only have a hand spreader .... thinking maybe I should invest in a better one.
> 
> There are drop and broadcast ones..... any suggestions?
> 
> Also if using for the Urea is the setting still to the first one until all product is gone?


A hand spreader is ideal for spreading urea on a property of your size. Mine is slightly under 5k and I only use a hand spreader for urea. Invest in a cheap digital scale (Amazon) and weigh out your urea per section of the lawn. You need just over 1 lb urea per 1000 (17.44 oz) to deliver 0.5 lbs N. A sandwich Ziploc will easily hold a little more than that, and fit on a small digital scale. Once I calculated the size of each section, I labeled each Ziploc with a Sharpie with the total ounces per section, so I don't have to calculate it each time. I just pop it into the bag and weigh it, and off I go. I walk relatively quickly and make passes in both directions (cross-hatch) to get even coverage. Water it in and you're done.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

I ended up buying some big *** scotts spreader... probably waste of money ....

g-man suggested .25 weekly.


----------



## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

g-man said:


> To eradicate, you need to kill all the birds dropping seeds via their poop. Stop all the wind from getting to your yard. Keep all the shoes, dogs paws off your lawn. Don't plant the seeds that show up in the mail.
> 
> Or just do PreM in the spring.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Here is my lawn progress... been putting down the urea every sunday.... freshly mowed today, brought it down one more notch on my mower.

I love having the dark green grass...... everyone on the block it is totally brown but then again.... I used 47 units of water last month.


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

That looks awesome! I just love the look of deep, thick, dark green grass. Beautiful!

Keep up the great work!

By the way, that one section of brown turf, next to the neighbor's river rocks, might benefit from the technique I saw @Sinclair describe recently of spot-watering with a 5-gallon bucket.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It looks good. Try to lower your hoc a bit more since you are in MN and can get a lot of snow coverage. Too much matted down grass in the winter don't help with snow mold problems.


----------



## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

Wow that looks nice and lush.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

g-man said:


> It looks good. Try to lower your hoc a bit more since you are in MN and can get a lot of snow coverage. Too much matted down grass in the winter don't help with snow mold problems.


How low should one go? I was nervous about dropping it another notch today but just did the outer edge and it looked good so I went with it.

Honestly, I've never had a yard like this before. Is the Urea the reason why it's holding the dark green color or just keeping it watered? We are now making the turn into fall weather... lows in the 40's


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would target 2.5in.

Urea + water + good soil from the sod farm.


----------



## turfnsurf (Apr 29, 2020)

g-man said:


> I would target 2.5in.
> 
> Urea + water + good soil from the sod farm.


@g-man sometimes I overthink people's comments and this may be one of them...but I want to verify so I am going to ask.

All of the guidance I've seen for nitrogen-only apps are prefaced in your N content per month. I wanted to make sure that your comment above isn't advocating a particular N source (ex. urea over AS) as the reason for his success. I assumed this was just you saying that him giving N was the reason, but then I thought hey maybe he is actually saying urea is the reason.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

turfnsurf said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > I would target 2.5in.
> ...


Urea or AS. Doesn't matter. They are both nitrogen only sources. Urea would not be the sole reason for someone's success this Fall. You would achieve similar results with AS.

One reason for choosing Urea over AS is availability. I can't easily get AS here, so I use urea. Use whatever is easily and readily available.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

What is AS ?


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Ammonium sulfate.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

how does that work vs urea? Why would someone choose one over the other or is it just about price an availability.


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

northernlights536 said:


> how does that work vs urea? Why would someone choose one over the other or is it just about price an availability.


Main difference is price and availability. Ammonium sulfate is more expensive per pound of nitrogen and a little less common (because it is more expensive.)

One distinction, though, is that ammonium sulfate has more of an acidifying effect than urea. It's not a big acidifying effect, but given that one applies pounds of N to the lawn each year, it adds up over time. If one has a high pH (an alkaline soil) there isn't much that can be done to lower pH. However, regularly using ammonium sulfate as a nitrogen source will slowly help move the pH towards neutral.

So, for people that have a high pH, applying ammonium sulfate will help lower pH over time.

Conversely, if one's soil has a low pH and one needs to add lime from time to time, applying ammonium sulfate moves the pH (slowly) in the wrong direction, so urea would be preferred.

So, in general, for cheap nitrogen sources, I would recommend urea (46-0-0) for a lawn with a low pH, and ammonium sulfate (AS, 21-0-0) for a lawn with a high pH. However, if the higher cost of the AS is out of the lawn owner's budget, urea is still acceptable but just won't lower the pH as much.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Thanks for the info... how does one accurately determine the pH?


----------



## BBLOCK (Jun 8, 2020)

northernlights536 said:


> Thanks for the info... how does one accurately determine the pH?


soil test from a lab will tell you the ph among other things


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

At what point do you guys stop using your irrigation system if you live in the northern US? My irrigation guy says they start doing their blow outs first of October. I am just wondering with a new lawn if going the month with no water will hurt the lawn.. not sure when it goes dormant. I have been during Urea weekly since last week in August.


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

northernlights536 said:


> At what point do you guys stop using your irrigation system if you live in the northern US? My irrigation guy says they start doing their blow outs first of October. I am just wondering with a new lawn if going the month with no water will hurt the lawn.. not sure when it goes dormant. I have been during Urea weekly since last week in August.


This is tough call for us northerners. Even though the lawn's water needs decrease greatly getting into October, with shorter days and less sunlight, it can be trouble for a new lawn if there isn't any rain at all (which is how our weather has been here lately.)

The initial frosts aren't going to freeze an underground irrigation system. The sprinkler heads in the ground and underground piping isn't going to freeze until the ground starts to freeze, which is quite a bit later.

The most vulnerable part of the irrigation system to an early freeze is usually right where the plumbing exits the house and goes to the backflow preventer. As to whether or not the water will freeze in there on a cold night depends a lot upon the specifics of the exposure of that plumbing to a clear sky, the wind on the cold night, how far it is from the house, etc.

We have done renovations six of the last eight years, so we're always wanting to keep the irrigation system active as deep into fall as possible. "Average first frost" in our area is September 26th. We usually have the irrigation system blown out during the last week of October, which is basically a month after that.

I don't worry about it unless the forecasted temperature is below 28F, however our plumbing and backflow preventer are just a couple inches from the house, in a sheltered corner, in the back of our house where it has hardly any direct exposure to the sky. On nights when the forecast is for below 28F, I'll wrap a big blanket around the backflow preventer and the few feet of exterior plumbing above ground. In some past years when the forecast was around 20F, I set the irrigation controller to water one zone for 10 minutes every 2 hours, just to keep some flow through the backflow preventer. I haven't had anything freeze yet, but it's always a concern.

The safest thing to do, of course, is to get it blown out before any freezing temperatures. However, one can keep it going longer with some care and a bit of worry... 

Oh, and we have this year's irrigation blowout scheduled for October 22nd. A little earlier than I'd like, but we'll make it work. I'm hoping to have mowed at least a couple times before then...


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Well I am at the point where I need to do a blow out. I live in a rural area and I do not know of anyone who does this and my irrigation guy who installed in the spring will not bring his compressor to the town I live in.. yes ODD.

So can my small system be blown out with a simple homeowner compressor?

I got this off of Amazon and my irrigation guy says I can just open each zone through the controller and then run the compressor several times.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0055QAAIQ









He did mention something about the backflow and if not done correct I could damage something. Again famous last words that he said he would get me the details for doing it but never heard back from him nor the refund of an overcharge .......

Once the sun comes up I will post a photo of the backflow set up.


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

northernlights536 said:


> ... my irrigation guy who installed in the spring will not bring his compressor to the town I live in.. yes ODD.


Thanks for teaching me my "word for the day" today -- ODD. I needed to look it up: Oppositional defiant disorder (ODD). (BTW, doesn't sound like a medical condition to me, just a manifestation of "our sinful nature," but I digress.)

Thanks for sharing, and I hope your irrigation blow-out goes well!

I've never tried blowing out our system, even though having to pay $ each year for the irrigation company to do it in just 25 minutes with their trailer-sized compressor is frustrating to somebody as cheap as me.

PS: Oh, and due to a scheduling conflict, our irrigation blowout is being delayed from Oct 22 to Nov 3.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Here is the back flow.

















I have turned the water off inside, and drained it.

I am guessing that I need to open those small screws to release some pressure and then turn off the valve that goes inside.

then start the blow out by zone and afterwards leave the two valves on the back and the set screws at a 45 so they are partially open for them to drain if water was still there..... at least that is what I got from watching some youtube videos...I understand this is not the ideal way to do this... I need to just hire someone to do it.


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Big fail.... I drained the lines back into the house. releived the pressure in the small ball values. charged my air compressor. hooked up that hose I got from amazon. Once the air compressor was done. Well prior to charging the air compressor I opened a zone for like an hour. after air compressor was done I turned if off and then opened the valve a bit slowly and all that happed was air rushed out of the top of the backflow. No sprinkler heads opened.

I then turn it all off and then tried again but closed the green values in the back .. put a bit of air on them and then turned off the air and then opened and a loud pop happened and then I opened the air and the zone started to spray.

let the air compressor run out and I tried it again and the air just rushes out of the backflow top.

Is this thing even plumbed right for blow out... should there not be a blow out after the backflow to the valve body ??


----------



## northernlights536 (Aug 3, 2020)

Happy New Year everyone!!

The snow is almost gone where I live and now I am looking at my drab yard that was sodded last year wondering what do I do to bring it back to life this spring.

I had various weeds appearing so I am sure I need to put some sort of pre emergent down but given the lawn was sodded last summer and is not even a year old not sure what to apply and when to apply it.

thx.


----------

