# Pre E Double Up



## jpos34 (Aug 31, 2019)

The last 2 years I have sprayed my pre-e prodiamine but I still don't feel like I'm consistent enough at spraying just yet. With that said it's harder for me to spray while the grass is dormant (no dew tracks) without having to use the messy blue dye. To make sure I get a better coverage can I do my usual spray app of prodiamine and double up by using the Sunniland Proffesional granular they sell at Lowe's with a different AI than the peodiamine. It's on clearance at Lowe's and if it will help by adding more protection im fine with paying the few dollars extra. Didn't want to do anything to hurt the yard but also wanted to have all bases covered.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

You're putting the same MOA, albeit with a different AI, on the yard. I don't think you're gaining anything via that approach and granular isn't typically the most cost effective method.

Instead, you could make a spray application with more water and increase the number of passes or just use the water as your indicator of where you sprayed.


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## jpos34 (Aug 31, 2019)

Movingshrub said:


> You're putting the same MOA, albeit with a different AI, on the yard.


im still a novice with all the spraying and and what not, Still trying to learn as much as I can. When you say MOA is the same with a different AI. What exactly does this mean I ve just always been under the assumption that AI was the only thing you were looking for. Could you explain that to me please


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## Theycallmemrr (May 16, 2019)

jpos34 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > You're putting the same MOA, albeit with a different AI, on the yard.
> ...


@jpos34 
MOA = Mode of Action

You want different modes of action when putting down pre/post emergents. This ensures that all the weeds are taken care of including ones that have become resistant to certain herbicides. For instance prodiamine is Mitosis Inhibitors does not allow cell division. It prevents weed seeds from laying down a root and as result the weed dies. Indaziflam is a cellulose inhibitor. Cellulose is a carbohydrate that makes up the cell walls. You can have to AI (active ingrediants) that have the same mode of action.

Here is a paper from UF  I am kidding its a great school just happens to be my Alma Mata's rival.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/AG/AG39800.pdf

The paper discusses different modes of action and resistance management.

You can try putting half the amount of herbicide you normally spray in your sprayer and spray north/south. Then spray again with the other half that you would normally spray and spray east/west.

You can do this when fertilizing as well instead open the hopper half of what you normally do spread north/south then spread east/west.

Hang in there you will get the hang of it. It takes some practice to get used to your land and the technique down.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

If I wasn't using marking dye, I would probably have to do half in one direction and half in the perpendicular direction. The technique has good reviews.

I wouldn't try to double the pre-emergent (same MOA) as a compensation for inconsistent spraying.


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## jasonbraswell (Aug 18, 2019)

I think there's a benefit to switching up Pre M AI's and helping to prevent herbicide resistance.
I sprayed Prodiamine and Simazine in fall.
I'll switch to Diypthor for the spring treatments.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@jasonbraswell 
I like this video Matt Martin put together on rotating pre-emergent herbicides. Specifically, he points out that prodiamine and dithiopyr belong to the same group and that our best reaction to the problem of growing herbicide resistance in weeds is to make use of more than one mode of action. Something to consider for any future plans.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVS8jTiWFo8[/media]


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

jpos34 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > You're putting the same MOA, albeit with a different AI, on the yard.
> ...


As others have noted, MOA = mode of action. Think of how you can take both Tylenol (acetaminophen) and Bayer (ibuprofen) for aches and pains; they both work towards the same goal but in different ways.

Prodiamine, Dithiopyr, and Pendimethalin are all the same MOA. You get no resistance benefit by rotating those three.

For your situation, I'd save your money and quit doing granular. If you're concerned about doing a bad job, use more water and make more passes. I spray on my dormant bermuda and am able to use the water to indicate where I've sprayed. Another option is to spray really early when there is dew in the morning which can show tire tracks and foot prints easily.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

jasonbraswell said:


> I think there's a benefit to switching up Pre M AI's and helping to prevent herbicide resistance.
> I sprayed Prodiamine and Simazine in fall.
> I'll switch to Diypthor for the spring treatments.


Using both prodiamine and simazine in the fall is good. I don't think you're really gaining anything by rotating to dithiopyr in the spring because you're going after after summer annuals with the spring app, versus winter annuals with the fall app. As in, every year you're be spraying prodiamine in the fall and dithiopyr in the spring, which isn't a rotation. Furthermore, they are the same MOA.

A pre-em rotation targeting poa annua could look like:
Fall - Prodiamine (Mitosis inhibitor), Simazine (Photosynthetic II inhibitor), Monument/Revolver/Katana/Negate/MSM
(ALS inhibitor)
Spring - Prodiamine
Fall - Specticle (cellulose biosynthesis inhibitor), Simazine, and Monument
Spring - Specticle
Fall - Prodiamine, Simazine, with a clean up of glyphosate and simazine in early January
Spring -Prodiamine
Fall - Ronstar (protox inhibitor), Simazine, and Monument

That plan involves changing one MOA per year. The downside is there's a lot of reliance on ALS inhibitors. With that said, with three MOAs, and a rotation, your chance of having a resistant population is almost zero.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Good stuff @Movingshrub

This comes up a lot. You should start a pre-e rotation guide outlining the info above and I will add it to the popular warm season topics sticky.


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## jpos34 (Aug 31, 2019)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions now looks like I got to learn about rotating out these Pre-E's and finding them in smaller sizes because its sounds pricey :shock:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

jpos34 said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions now looks like I got to learn about rotating out these Pre-E's and finding them in smaller sizes because its sounds pricey :shock:


You don't have to make it complicated. Prodiamine or dithiopyr + another MOA; simazine is cheap. Another contender for a third MOA that's cheap would be MSM/Manor. Especially for MSM/Manor, more is not better. Measure VERY carefully or kiss grass and maybe established trees good bye.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Ware said:


> Good stuff @Movingshrub
> 
> This comes up a lot. You should start a pre-e rotation guide outlining the info above and I will add it to the popular warm season topics sticky.


Agreed.

Many (including me) were/are buying the 5lb jug of Prodiamine WDG65 and thinking they've moved up from the granular or box-store offerings. I saved money buying the big jug for sure and thought I was covered for awhile. It's also a 5 year supply for me. In the future, I'll be implementing a rotation for sure. My challenge is that I need to disrupt Poa Annua but I've been overseeding PRG each winter. My side yard is probably 50/50 Rye/Poa ATM. :lol:


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## jasonbraswell (Aug 18, 2019)

Movingshrub said:


> jasonbraswell said:
> 
> 
> > I think there's a benefit to switching up Pre M AI's and helping to prevent herbicide resistance.
> ...


Yes, I am doing a seasonal rotation this year but I read studies a yearly rotation is more of a benefit for the herbicide resistance. I like the Diypthor to hammer crab grass in the spring.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Movingshrub said:


> jasonbraswell said:
> 
> 
> > I think there's a benefit to switching up Pre M AI's and helping to prevent herbicide resistance.
> ...


@Movingshrub I am considering putting S-Metolachlor (Pennant Magnum) in my rotation for spring to help with controlling goosegrass and doveweed (since they germinate later and I have read efficacy is strong). I was thinking it was a different MoA because is is Group 15. Now I see from the UF article that prodiamine and S-met. are both mitosis inhibitors but prodiamine is Group 3. Are these technically different MoAs because they are in different groups or not?

Here is my plan for this fall and spring:

September - split app of prodiamine
Oct / November - second app of prodiamine plus simizine to catch baby poa
February - split app of prodiamine plus perhaps an herbicide treatment like Certainty
April - second app of prodiamine plus full app of S-meto (I had a huge goosegrass problem and doveweed problem this year).

Appreciate your thoughts on the above.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I like the syngenta plan of simazine, monument, and prodiamine for poa managment.

I don't do a split app but there isn't an issue with that approach and may reduce the chance of missing a spot.

I would include the certainty in your fall application.

I don't have committed to memory of the efficacy of Pennant magnum on goose grass. However, I think both it and Ronstar are particularly effective on goosegrass.

Is your intent to apply that program year after year?

Pennant magnum and prodiamine are different sites of action, so they should qualify as different modes even if they operate in a similar manner.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

jpos34 said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions now looks like I got to learn about rotating out these Pre-E's and finding them in smaller sizes because its sounds pricey :shock:


I just want to add this caveat; while the upfront pricing of a good Pre-E is sometimes a shock or cost prohibitive, you also save on the back end wirh post emergents. Sure, some years you'll be using both, and it won't feel like it depending on the pressure from neighbors and Mother Nature. When I started my cycle of prodiamine and Specticle Flo, I've had a summer or two that I don't even have weeds to spray. Infact, I have two weed spots that I need to use celcius on this year and I didn't have any previously. It's not even worthwhile for me to buy celcius anymore.

Find someone to split with here and enjoy the fact you don't have to pull weeds, mix or spray anything extra… to me, if someone asked what's the most important thing, it's getting down well timed PreE, followed closely by "mow often".


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Jagermeister said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > jasonbraswell said:
> ...


Can't comment on much, but if goosegrass is your problem, for one look at your cultural practices, but two… oxadiazon. That said, it's worth noting the use of oxadiazon on your yard, since some people get all sensitive. It will without a doubt eliminate your issues if it is acceptable for you to use.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Yeah, generic oxadiazon is pretty damn good at goosegrass. Depending how prevalent it is, fluazifop and glyphosate with a paintbrush will take it out.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Movingshrub said:


> I like the syngenta plan of simazine, monument, and prodiamine for poa managment.
> 
> I don't do a split app but there isn't an issue with that approach and may reduce the chance of missing a spot.
> 
> ...


I would love to add Specticle Flo to the mix or some other MoA Pre-E but getting cost prohibitive. I was hoping by adding the Simazine and Pennant to the mix plus some post herbicides, it would mitigate the resistance issue. Porblem is we have limited options now.

In regards to cultural, I have been addressing that this year. I do need to fix some drainage issues still. I had such an explosion of Goose this year so it is more than just cultural, I would say. I have been pulling barrel-fulls of weeds this summer...I tried a solitaire mix but bronzed the bermuda too much so went back to pulling weeds. I don't want to do that again next year!


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

@Movingshrub @FATC1TY Thanks for your input. As you two sound like you have a lot of experience / knowledge in this space, I would appreciate you reviewing and poking holes in my revised multi-year plan...

I have been thinking about this a lot and put a lot of research in on the best program for most reasonable cost (also watched the Grass Factor videos on this). As a little background. Up until about May of this year, I was doing the standard DIY granular approach until I built my own fraken spreader-mate. Since then, I have started spraying everything including fert, FAS, etc. I have built up a good arsenal of products and so gone way over budget.... I still have yet to buy my pre-em for Fall. Last year and this year, I used 007 plus Dimension granular and had pretty poor results - a lot of Poa this spring and Goosegrass this summer (but no crab and very little sedge). I want to not repeat this! I am trying to play the long game and so put lawn on a mult-year reno. Overall, the lawn is looking so much better now but still have patches and large areas in the back that are bare.

Current arsenal includes Celcius, Certainty, quinclorac, sulfentrazone, imidacloprid & bifen, fungicides (pricey), urea, FAS, potassium, 20-20-20 Pro Sol, Humic. So for this fall, I would like to try and use existing herbicides for Poa control.

Hoping to be able to split the pre-ems because of all the rotations.

*Let me know your thoughts on the below:*

*Fall 2021 (Year 1)*
September - Split app of Prodiamine (to prevent Poa germination)
Late October / Early November - Split app of Prodiamine plus Simazine and Certainty (to catch any baby Poa)
February - Split app of Prodiamine plus Simazine (assuming might catch any new Poa germinating when warms up) plus 3 way for broadleaf
Late April (after greenup) - Split app of Prodiamine plus Pennant Magnum plus sulfentrazone / quinclorac (to get any baby crab or goose) before it gets too hot to use, maybe another 3 way for broadleaf
*
Fall 2022 (Year 2)*
September - Split app of Specticle (to prevent Poa germination)
Late October / Early November - Split app of Specitcle
December - Ethofumesate or Sureguard
February - Split app of Specticle plus Negate / Monument plus 3 way for broadleaf
Late April (after greenup) - Split app of Specticle plus Pennant Magnum plus sulfentrazone / quinclorac (to get any baby crab or goose) before it gets too hot to use, maybe another 3 way for broadleaf

I have heard Specticle can be hard on bermuda as can Pennant during green up. Also, need to be careful with Specticle around cold season lawns (I have a section of TTTF in the back downslope). Maybe delete Pennant if using Specticle in spring? Then keep rotating with this and perhaps a few other MoAs.

I am hoping that by doing this for a few years, I get to the point where weeds are totally under control and lawn is lush with not bare spots for weeds to germinate in.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I'm no pro, it that just seems like a lot of applications when it may not be needed. 2-3 apps a year split up should suffice.

If poa is the main driver - Specticle this fall will eliminate it come winter and spring. Do a half app of it and call it a day.

Return to prodiamine in the early spring, and then another split app, or even an app of Ronstar in late spring to catch the later germination of the goosegrass. You'll have to look at germination timing and soils if you want to get really accurate.

Just be careful- more is not best, and too often is no good too. The oxadiazon and the Specticle won't club the roots near as bad as some of the others will, but you can really delay rooting and green up, and getting stuff to tack down while spreading.


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## gooodawgs (Jul 10, 2020)

@Jagermeister I see you're in Milton as well. Very cool to know another crazy lawn person over here. If you want to do any split apps we could look at those 2.5G jugs of specticle and other pricey products...


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

gooodawgs said:


> @Jagermeister I see you're in Milton as well. Very cool to know another crazy lawn person over here. If you want to do any split apps we could look at those 2.5G jugs of specticle and other pricey products...


@gooodawgs Yes, very cool! In fact, I was connecting with @corneliani on building up a pre-em arsenal and splitting some of these costs. Let me know what you are interested in doing. I am going to start this year with Prodiamine and Simazine if you like to split some of this. Next year would be Pennant and Specticle.

My goal with all of the rotations was to mitigate resistance issues that seems to be getting worse by the year. And by doing the blanket apps, get that weed-free lawn for the season.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

My hesitancy with Specticle is that it won't allow for winter overseeding for 12 months post-application! So if you have any inkling of overseeding with rye then take this off the list.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

corneliani said:


> My hesitancy with Specticle is that it won't allow for winter overseeding for 12 months post-application! So if you have any inkling of overseeding with rye then take this off the list.


Great point...although I guess that is a good sign that it works too!


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