# Is there a selective herbicide to kill KBG in Fescue?



## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Hey everyone,

Is there any other option (other than a weed wick and glyphosate) to kill KBG in a fescue lawn? I've fought the crabgrass and anything that looked like crabgrass. Next on the list was going to be Poa A this fall (pre-e for next year). But, now that temps are over 90 in Charlotte, I'm not mowing as frequently and I'm seeing what I believe are KBG seed heads popping up.

Anyway to kill it and not injure my fescue? Or am I going to have to go around and paint each one with glyphosate? And if I have to, will hitting the seed head only be enough, or will I need to get more of the plant to kill it off?

If I'm remembering, digging it up isn't an option either because it puts out rhizomes?

Thanks for the guidance!


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

I *think* you would need to go round and paint the blades, the way Glyphosate works is by absorption through the leaves travelling down through the same channels that sugars travel down, I don't think photosynthesis happens through the seed stalks.

I recommend posting up pictures of the seed heads as it may be you have another issue.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Summer heat, water just enough to keep the fecue alive, it will likely croak.

If it's actually KBG, i wouldn't want to kill it but to each his own. :thumbup:


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I almost forgot, fusilade II will bang KBG. If you use when the KBG is stressed, it might kill it. Unfortunately, if the KBG is stressed then the fescue will also be stressed. Maybe try it on a small area and go from there.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Killing KBG? This thread should be removed and op be band from the site.  :lol:  :lol:


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

You should post a picture of this grass.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Makes sense the seed stalk/head won't pull the glyphosate into the system. Looks like I'll either have to deal with it, or go through and paint the KBG leaves themselves. Just wanted to avoid damaging as much of the fescue as possible

Haha, I know, killing KBG is like a 4 letter word around here with most people.  I don't mind the grass itself, just don't want the seed heads popping up above the turf. I am trying to have a lawn that can go more than a week or two without being mowed (allowing it to get about 5.5-6" tall before I mow again). The seed heads ruin that for me, unless I go around and pull the heads in my yard every other week.

I'll snap a few pictures when I get home and post them up. Maybe I'm wrong on what I have, but I 'think' they look like KBG heads.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> ... I don't mind the grass itself, just don't want the seed heads popping up above the turf. I am trying to have a lawn that can go more than a week or two without being mowed (allowing it to get about 5.5-6" tall before I mow again). The seed heads ruin that for me, unless I go around and pull the heads in my yard every other week. ...


Tall fescue can also grow seed heads.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Must grasses will grow seed heads if allowed. It is an ugly ~2 week period in the spring.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

I personally use it as an excuse to mow every day, usually works until such time that I miss a day or so and the wife realises it's not throwing seed heads any more.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I call the seed heads frog hair. Looks like a yard's soft green fur to me. I like it. To each his own. . . .


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Powhatan said:


> Tall fescue can also grow seed heads.


I thought TTT fescue doesn't begin to seed until it's really tall (as in 12+ inches, more like 18 inches or so)? I only heard/saw this once, so I forget my source, but I thought it was reputable (ie Grassfactor, or it may have been TLN).

Pic is attached, the grass growing up right in the center is what has the seed heads that I thought was KBG. If I'm wrong, please let me know. (PS, sorry for the slightly out of focus picture, was trying to snap a pic before the rain hit)


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

g-man said:


> Must grasses will grow seed heads if allowed. It is an ugly ~2 week period in the spring.


I was hoping to do what Pete (GCI Turf) does in the summer and let it grow tall and not have to mow it much, if at all until late summer/early fall. But my HOA won't allow it to look unkempt, so those seed heads will get me notices in the mail for non-compliance.

This grass right now isn't growing much, the heat has pretty much shut down top growth. But those seed heads are popping up. Maybe I'm just out of luck and will need to mow every week. The growth in my yard is probably pushing 9-10 days at this point, but the heads were there a few days ago (day 6-7).

The frustrating part is my back yard doesn't have this seed head issue (it does have Poa A like the front does too). So I'm not sure what turf is in the front and not in the back.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I call the seed heads frog hair. Looks like a yard's soft green fur to me. I like it. To each his own. . . .


If it was uniform I might be able to deal with it, but it's so sporadic it looks terrible. I wouldn't worry too much about it if I didn't have an HOA (and the president of the HOA at the end of my road, so he drives by my yard every day). But I know I'll get notices and eventually fines if I don't keep things looking at least halfway decent.

The funny thing is I can have a yard with zero grass, half weeds (creeping ivy or oxalis) and half dirt and I'd be ok as long as I mow it once a month. But, when you have actual grass or a weed that puts up seed heads (dallis/crabgrass, etc) then I'd get notices.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> Pic is attached, the grass growing up right in the center is what has the seed heads that I thought was KBG. If I'm wrong, please let me know. (PS, sorry for the slightly out of focus picture, was trying to snap a pic before the rain hit)


Those are fescue seed heads.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

For the next 2 -3 weeks keep mowing. Mow those heads off. After that you could let it grow and they should not be there. It is a spring thing.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I get fescue seed heads at 5-6". Just mow them off...


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Those are fescue seed heads.


Ya learn something new each day! I'm glad I didn't go forward with killing them then.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

g-man said:


> For the next 2 -3 weeks keep mowing. Mow those heads off. After that you could let it grow and they should not be there. It is a spring thing.


Will do! Glad to know it's a temporary thing since not going to persist all summer.

Thanks again to everyone for the input!


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I get fescue seed heads at 5-6". Just mow them off...


Interesting, good to know. Thanks!


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > I get fescue seed heads at 5-6". Just mow them off...
> ...


Just checked the TTTF in my lawn. I mowed Saturday @ 3.5", we had a rain downpour last night, grass is growing fast.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Powhatan said:


> Just checked the TTTF in my lawn. I mowed Saturday @ 3.5", we had a rain downpour last night, grass is growing fast.


That's some serious growth!


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I can't tell anything from the picture. Are we sure it's not Poa annual? I suspect some of it is and it will be dead soon


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> I can't tell anything from the picture. Are we sure it's not Poa annual? I suspect some of it is and it will be dead soon


Oh I definitely have some Poa A mixed in too, but going to address that for next year (pre-e this summer/fall). But there's some much taller seed heads in the picture too.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > Those are fescue seed heads.
> ...


Now let's get down to more serious business....how to take the fescue out of the KBG. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Sinclair said:


> Now let's get down to more serious business....how to take the fescue out of the KBG. :lol: :lol: :lol:


LOL If only it would survive the heat well enough, I'd be down for a KBG lawn.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

You might be able to spray ethofumesate. Fescue can take almost double the rate of bluegrass so that could take out all types of poa...


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> LOL If only it would survive the heat well enough, I'd be down for a KBG lawn.


Check out some of the other threads, there's quite a few of us growing KBG here in NC and in VA. Takes about the same amount of care as fescue, isn't susceptible to brown patch, and recovers from dormancy like a champ.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Check out some of the other threads, there's quite a few of us growing KBG here in NC and in VA. Takes about the same amount of care as fescue, isn't susceptible to brown patch, and recovers from dormancy like a champ.


Hmmmm...interesting. I'll have to look around. Everything I read up to now says transition zone is really a fescue area. Good to know it isn't my only option.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Kbg guy in NC here chiming in. Kbg is sooooo soft. Like shoes off soft. Look at Raleigh NTEP and they have KBG trials.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

LawnNerd said:


> Kbg guy in NC here chiming in. Kbg is sooooo soft. Like shoes off soft. Look at Raleigh NTEP and they have KBG trials.


+1
My front is all KBG, my back is hybrid bluegrass (spf30) with fescue. The hybrid dominates and is suppose to do better in the summer


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> > Kbg guy in NC here chiming in. Kbg is sooooo soft. Like shoes off soft. Look at Raleigh NTEP and they have KBG trials.
> ...


You both aren't too far from me (climate-wise). I'll have to give it thought. How much irrigation do you two do over the summer? My problem is I need the most drought tolerant I can get, my area of Charlotte seems to miss most of the summer rain storms. I can water myself to some degree, but my wife complains enough about our water costs when I water for seeding purposes. I can only imagine if I'm putting down 1" per week for 3-4 months. 

I've read up a little in the last hour, sounds like KBG isn't as bad as I thought in the heat (especially the hybrid versions). But some tests still say TTT fescue wins in the drought tolerance area. I am not against watering, it's just harder since I don't have an irrigation system, and my water is all from the city. I really need to chip in for a separate meter for irrigation and cut my water costs by 3/4. But a new meter isn't cheap either. Decisions, decisions....


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > LawnNerd said:
> ...


This is what TTTF looks like in summer dormancy and a few weeks later after receiving rainwater. I'm on well water, I don't irrigate, I rely on rainwater. In Feb I dormant seeded KY-31 tall fescue with the TTTF, suppose to be better surviving the heat/drought. I put down hybrid bluegrass last year, but the deer ate it up earlier this year. Not trying to persuade you with what grass you want to go with, just providing information.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2768&p=53359#p53359


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> beastcivic said:
> 
> 
> > LOL If only it would survive the heat well enough, I'd be down for a KBG lawn.
> ...


Wow, you really got my attention here @j4c11.
Why use preventative fungicides in the KBG lawn, then? Summer patch? Dollar spot?
Is there a particular disease outbreak that you dread most?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> > Kbg guy in NC here chiming in. Kbg is sooooo soft. Like shoes off soft. Look at Raleigh NTEP and they have KBG trials.
> ...


Have you compared the color of your hybrid against your KBG?
From what I have read, many people have commented that the color of the hybrid seems lighter.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I can't find the link, but there was a drought study done on unirrigated tttf and bluegrass. Basically KBG won in every study in the lab, however outside TTTF faired slighty better, which they concluded was due to deeper root formation (KBG spread, tttf went deeper)

I don't have irrigation and only drag out the sprinkler if I have to. I try to use organics, surfactants, humic acid, limit spring fert and lightly topdressing to try and avoid irrigation.

I actually did a study myself in a raised bed in Raleigh under partial shade. I seeded KBG (midnight), hbg mix (thermal, spf30 and another I cannot remember), tttf and prg. All were seeded in the spring which is not optimal. By mid-July the prg was 75% dead, the TTF was 50% thinned and showing fungal pressure. The midnight thinned about 40% but looked drought stress and the hybrid looked only slightly better. The following spring the hbg had pretty much taken over the plot, midnight looked great in its square and the tttf very thin. The prg was dead.

KBG will go dormant and stay dormant longer than TTTF, however I'm not sure what that means in the transition zone.

Also it's a b**** waiting on bluegrass. If you like fescue go with it! You might consider blending with hbg, they blend nicely imo. Here is a pic of my tttf and hbg.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

social port said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > LawnNerd said:
> ...


Slightly lighter and finer. Difference is minimal to me. In my current home the nuglade and midnight are about the same color. First year though, so we'll see


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

social port said:


> Wow, you really got my attention here @j4c11.
> Why use preventative fungicides in the KBG lawn, then? Summer patch? Dollar spot?
> Is there a particular disease outbreak that you dread most?


Yeah it's still susceptible to many other fugal diseases. Particularly when using PGR, it can't "grow out of it". I spray preventive fungicide so I don't have to dread any of them, one less thing to worry about. I mix fungicide right into my T-Nex batch.

I almost had an outbreak of something this spring as I sprayed my first 2 batches of T-Nex in mid and late April without fungicide. I thought it was too early, I normally start mid-May. I'm not sure what it was exactly, but it was really attacking the bluegrass. A good dose of propiconazole and azoxystrobin cleared it up quickly.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> KBG will go dormant and stay dormant longer than TTTF, however I'm not sure what that means in the transition zone.


I think KBG has great potential in the transition zone exactly because of that. Personally I've never seen fescue recover once it goes brown, but I had a small test pot of KBG not only fully recover after going dormant last summer but double its surface area by March. So rather than watering fescue to death and spraying fungicides and all that, you could just let bluegrass go dormant and kick back until fall when you can nurse it back to health.

I might be the involuntary guinea pig on that as I have to take a 2 week trip in June.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> you could just let bluegrass go dormant and kick back until fall when you can nurse it back to health.


This works as long as you dont have kids playing in the dormant grass. There is even a Purdue article that suggests it. KBG could last a long time dormant. I think they recommended 0.5in every 3 weeks 1 to 1.5in every 4 to 6 weeks or a rain. A lot of folks in the midwest that dont maintain their lawns (and HOA common areas) unintentionally do just this. They also get the benefit of not having to mow in the summer. The lawn recovers very nice once the Sept temp drop and rain returns.

The key is not to walk on the dormant grass. Too much walking kills the crowns. KBG will spread and recover but walked areas take longer to survive.

edit: I found the article. It is 1- to 1.5in every 4 to 6 weeks. Irrigation Practices for Homelawns


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

g-man said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > you could just let bluegrass go dormant and kick back until fall when you can nurse it back to health.
> ...


Great info! Thanks for sharing! Making me consider kbg......


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I am so tempted to try KBG. I spent half of last year trying to convince myself that it is a good idea. 
I just don't think I can do it without an irrigation system. Maybe one day I will try my hand at installing a system.

@probasestealer the lawn is looking really good.

I noticed in @thegrassfactor 's video the other day, someone was growing bluegrass in Knoxville. For a moment, I thought: It's a sign! 




I wasn't able to tell for sure in the video, but it sounded like the bluegrass was being killed so that bermuda could thrive :sad:


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

My kbg does need water a few days before my tttf main yard does. However, the tttf is established and on its 2nd year. The kbg is only 9 months old. I also used surfactants on tttf area last year before i seeded the kbg area last fall. I had the idea last summer about water. Kbg might need more in the summer, but how much am i saving by not having to purchase seed and water that seed to germinate in a seeding?

@social portyou could always find a small area of your back yard to expirment. I can send you 1 lb of prosperity/Award mix. Atleast you can see it and feel it yourself. See how it fares in summer, and experience the lovely joy that is sprout and pout. And if you hate it or it fails, its just a small area that you can reseed with tttf.

@j4c11 i had bad run of leafspot run through. I was due for my next spray, and i did it a few days early (Tuesday) before all this rain. Im glad i did now.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@LawnNerd dare I?
I think that trying KBG is inevitable for me.
I am in the middle of wet, humid nights, and 85-92 degree days. If I take a shot now, would the shot be fair?


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

@social portI triple dog dare you! Lol. But, I'd Wait till August. Pm me your address or somewhere you'd like me to ship the seed.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@LawnNerd triple dog dare. You're not fooling around. 
Let's do it!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Also, I just have to point out that this thread began with taking KBG out of a fescue lawn; it ended with adding KBG to a fescue lawn.


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

http://www.fanpop.com/clubs/a-christmas-story/images/40073840/title/triple-dog-dare-animated-gif-fanart


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)




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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

social port said:


> I am so tempted to try KBG. I spent half of last year trying to convince myself that it is a good idea.
> I just don't think I can do it without an irrigation system. Maybe one day I will try my hand at installing a system.
> 
> @probasestealer the lawn is looking really good.
> ...


This is one of those weird instances where the KBG had taken over a large area, non irrigated to boot. It goes dormant in June and stays that way until November. Made more since to convert to Bermuda in this instance. 1 acre, non irrigated, full sun


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

The triple dog dare...
they never end well.
if my pessimistic side pushes that allusion to its logical conclusion, then the KBG effort will end in a disaster, possibly with the fire department involved somehow :?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> This is one of those weird instances where the KBG had taken over a large area, non irrigated to boot.


I call that 'The Tennessee Miracle'


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

If you can get your fescue through the summer with no major losses, you'll be ok with KBG. The level if care is about the same.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

social port said:


> The triple dog dare...
> they never end well.
> if my pessimistic side pushes that allusion to its logical conclusion, then the KBG effort will end in a disaster, possibly with the fire department involved somehow :?


Ohh i cant wait till you get to sprout & pout now! :shock: :lol:

You've got that Fescue looking beautiful. Nice, thick and healthy. You'll do just fine!


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