# Humic Acid



## j4c11

So what's the deal with this stuff? I see everyone on Youtube is jumping on the bandwagon. Of course, LCN is selling it on his online store so I can't help but take his recommendation with a grain of salt, and there's others but you don't know if they're also sponsored or getting the stuff for free or what.

Is anyone actually seeing improvements directly attributable to the use of humic acid? Should I go out and buy some right now?


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## viva_oldtrafford

There's not a shred of scholarly material that proves HA has a measurable impact on plant growth (this was the case as late as 2016 - haven't seen any since either). With that said, there is a general consensus that HA can help improve soil quality in some extreme circumstances.

https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html


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## Ridgerunner

My problem with it, not really with Humic Substances and acids, is the way it is promoted. That does it a real disservice. Per the hype it will do everything and anything, including your laundry. Humic, and even more so fulvic acid acts as a chelating agent (and lb per lb has an enormous CEC--it is, of course, the stuff of OM) which can help hold and make nutrients available to the turf. That could be particularly advantageous for sandy/low CEC soils.
My question is how long does it work?


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## viva_oldtrafford

Ridgerunner said:


> My problem with it, not really with Humic Substances and acids, is the way it is promoted. That does it a real disservice. *Per the hype it will do everything and anything, including your laundry.* Humic, and even more so fulvic acid acts as a chelating agent (and lb per lb has an enormous CEC--it is, of course, the stuff of OM) which can help hold and make nutrients available to the turf. That could be particularly advantageous for sandy/low CEC soils.
> My question is how long does it work?


I know we've talked about it briefly before, but we're working with Eon 75 on fairways with CEC in the low 2s and areas around our bunkers where the sand collects via wind / bunker rake removal. I'm very interested to see the impact in 2-3 months, then again in 6-8 months. The stuff we're using is labeled @ 1lb/k and is said to last through the year....we'll see.


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## Ballistic

I feel like it does something. I have only put down one application of it in a glandular form right before spring, and i can tell you my grass is definitely greener than anyone else in the area, and i have only just started getting my lawn going as the previous owner only watered and mowed it. And that was even before i started spraying FAS.

Its not super expensive so i think ill keep putting it down, i may look into spraying it once i build a sprayer.


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## stotea

I've done a lot of online research on humic acid, and the concensus of the not-obviously-biased sources was that it can help nutrients become more available for plants. When there's sufficient available nutrients already in the soil, though, HA yields no incremental benefit. Any potential benefits are only noticeable in less than ideal soil conditions and/or in new or transplanted plants.

Now, I'm not saying HA is snake oil, as I bought some earlier this year and intend to use it on my own lawn beginning next week. It's just that it's effects are waaaay over-marketed, with some being straight up lies.


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## Richard Slater

I quite like Matt from The Grass Factor's take on Humic Acid:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5CxqZd2HM0[/media]


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## jessehurlburt

I bought a pound of humic/fulvic/kelp powder from kelpforless for $22 shipped. It will make dozens and dozens of spray apps. For the money I thought it was worth a shot to help my crappy, sandy soil. We'll see how it does- I've only applied one app so far.


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## wardconnor

I have been using it for around 3 years. I can not say for sure but I believe that it is working and helping drive roots. I did a video on how long some of the roots in my sod are. The roots I have on Kentucky Bluegrass are 6 to 8 inches. I believe that this has something to do with the humic acid. I can not say for sure but I believe it does. That video is here.


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## Austin

I put it on twice last year and once this year. Personally I can't tell a difference but then again the yard was terrible before we moved in.


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## Ridgerunner

FWIW: While researching the chelate characteristics, I came across this study:
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/thesdiss/vandyke2008c.pdf
Keep in mind that study was done with a very specific situation (soil texture, pH and turf), However many times the characteristics of a substance exhibit themselves consistently regardless of the circumstances/conditions. Although I never saw any effect one way or another (I didn't do a control, so nothing to compare to) I used to apply granular until my local source stopped carrying it.


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## crussell

Does anyone mix HA/Kelp with their FAS applications? Any reason that wouldn't be compatible?


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## social port

crussell said:


> Does anyone mix HA/Kelp with their FAS applications? Any reason that wouldn't be compatible?


I was reading this https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=211&start=100 yesterday. Check out the last three posts. That should answer your question, at least with respect to HA.


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## crussell

Thanks that does answer my question - I am also using the Kelp4Less Extreme Blend, so sounds like I will do multiple applications...


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## Turf Jitsu

How often would you apply humic acid? I just bought a bottle and applied it yesterday.


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## Harts

I'd also like to know how often HA can be applied. I understand the skepticism as I too am in that category. But it's fairly inexpensive and won't do irreparable harm. So why not try it?


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## Ecks from Tex

Harts said:


> I'd also like to know how often HA can be applied. I understand the skepticism as I too am in that category. But it's fairly inexpensive and won't do irreparable harm. So why not try it?


Two times per year should be good (not counting intermittent applications of products that contain humic acid). More than that and you're probably not gaining much. It's not the quantity you put down but the consistency in applications over multiple seasons that help amend your soil and improve turf. After 2-3 seasons you will see .... your herbicides will stunt the grass less and your roots will grow deeper even though you are cutting shorter to encourage thick growth.


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## Harts

Thanks @Ecks from Tex. Appreciate your help.


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## jonthepain

Interesting study.
Cooper, RJ et al. Influence of humic substances on rooting and nutrient content of creeping bentgrass. Crop Science
38(6):1639-1644, 1998.


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## g-man

Here is the article

http://www.jhbiotech.com/docs/Humic-Acids-on-BentGrass.pdf


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## kur1j

Hie related is HA to the GCF products of Air8 product, De-Thatch, RGS?


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## adgattoni

kur1j said:


> Hie related is HA to the GCF products of Air8 product, De-Thatch, RGS?


GCF products are primarily HA-based products.

RGS - humic acid, fulvic acid, and seakelp.
Air-8 - partially unreacted humic acid that completes the reaction once in the soil, the reaction is supposed to do the aeration.
De-Thatch - has some humic acid in it, but the "dethatching" component is really the molasses and yeast - creates additional microbial activity to munch the thatch.


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## kur1j

@adgattoni Thanks for the explination.

So on one camp I see grassfactor talking about how HA seemingly helped his yard, a lot of people here are talking about it and say they have good success.

However, in the other camp you have scientific data (or maybe just lack of research, like the article viva posted) stating that HA doesn't help. It's hard to argue this.

So I honestly don't know what to believe.


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## Ral1121

All I know is it is not that expensive and easy to put down with everything else I am doing so why not give it a try


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## jonthepain

Everything I've learned about HA I've posted here:
http://www.carolinaorganiclawns.com/humates/

If it reads like an ad, it's because it is.


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## viva_oldtrafford

kur1j said:


> @adgattoni Thanks for the explination.
> 
> So on one camp I see grassfactor talking about how HA seemingly helped his yard, a lot of people here are talking about it and say they have good success.
> 
> However, in the other camp you have scientific data (or maybe just lack of research, like the article viva posted) stating that HA doesn't help. It's hard to argue this.
> 
> So I honestly don't know what to believe.


With no research to corroborate or debunk the claims being made, it's one of those things that you just choose to do if you feel like it. Personally, I hate spending time and money on something that isn't going to have any real measurable impact on my turf. With that said, I was given the opportunity to try some and I'm now in the process of working with HA in a few, very specific areas (CEC in the mid 2s). I'll test again in 3-4 months and see if those numbers climb any.

http://turf.arizona.edu/tipsoct00.htm


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## kur1j

@viva_oldtrafford That sums it up nicely. The article essentially reinforces it.

Just curious what products are you testing out? Make sure and let us know the results!


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## CenlaLowell

jessehurlburt said:


> I bought a pound of humic/fulvic/kelp powder from kelpforless for $22 shipped. It will make dozens and dozens of spray apps. For the money I thought it was worth a shot to help my crappy, sandy soil. We'll see how it does- I've only applied one app so far.


I watched a video from this company and he said something about mixing with Reservoir water what is this?


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## RandyMan

I just bought some stuff off amazon.Its 2 lbs per bag.I went ahead and got 4 lbs.2 lbs treats over 40,000 sq feet.The reviews on amazon are all positive!

https://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-...TF8&qid=1529433108&sr=8-4&keywords=humid+acid.

My lawn has heavy red clay.My bermuda does good but certain times it shows signs of the bad soil its connected too.Most places I cant even take a screwdriver all the way


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## Lawn_newbie

adgattoni said:


> kur1j said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hie related is HA to the GCF products of Air8 product, De-Thatch, RGS?
> 
> 
> 
> GCF products are primarily HA-based products.
> 
> RGS - humic acid, fulvic acid, and seakelp.
> Air-8 - partially unreacted humic acid that completes the reaction once in the soil, the reaction is supposed to do the aeration.
> De-Thatch - has some humic acid in it, but the "dethatching" component is really the molasses and yeast - creates additional microbial activity to munch the thatch.
Click to expand...

Has anyone tried the GCF products and had a noticeable difference in their lawn?

I would like to know what yeasts they use in the De-Thatch formula. I am also interested to know if endo/ecto mycorrhiza make a difference.


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## jonthepain

> In sand culture, humate incorporated to a depth of 10 cm stimulated a 45% increase in root mass at the 0- to 10-cm depth and a 38% increase in root mass at the 10- to 20-cm depth compared with the control. Incorporation of granular humate increased maximum root length 15% compared with non-treated turf in sand culture. No foliar applied HA source consistently provided rooting superior to the control in either sand or solution culture.


From Cooper, RJ et al. Influence of humic substances on rooting and nutrient content of creeping bentgrass. Crop Science 38(6):1639-1644, 1998.

I've been using liquid HA and kelp on lawns for over 10 years and, while anecdotal, I'm convinced that it's one of the reasons why the lawns I manage have thrived since I started using them in my program.

Many years ago my ex-profs at State shook their heads at me and branded me a non-scientific eco-nut, but these days they are conducting organic turf management research at their Lake Wheeler Research Station. I'm hoping that they will conduct more HA research, and I plan to ask them if they have any grad students willing to initiate that when I'm at the annual Field Day this year. Mostly they shun me so I'm not getting my hopes up.

It's been very encouraging to witness knowledgeable and enthusiastic LCO's like Matt Martin explore the viability and uses of various tools that we as turf managers have to work with, such as HA.

And I would argue that I am no eco-nut, I am simply striving to be a good steward.


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## zinger565

Lawn_newbie said:


> Has anyone tried the GCF products and had a noticeable difference in their lawn?
> 
> I would like to know what yeasts they use in the De-Thatch formula. I am also interested to know if endo/ecto mycorrhiza make a difference.


I have a hard time believing the yeast are still alive in there (De-Thatch). If they're alive, they'll have eaten the molasses. It's like keeping a dog in a kennel with a bowl full of steak and expecting him not to eat it until you open the door.


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## jonthepain

RandyMan said:


> I just bought some stuff off amazon.Its 2 lbs per bag.I went ahead and got 4 lbs.2 lbs treats over 40,000 sq feet.The reviews on amazon are all positive!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-...TF8&qid=1529433108&sr=8-4&keywords=humid+acid.


I've been using TV sp-90 commercially for over 10 years now. Very happy with it. I buy the 10 lb bags.

I didn't know you could get it through amazon.


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## RandyMan

jonthepain said:


> RandyMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just bought some stuff off amazon.Its 2 lbs per bag.I went ahead and got 4 lbs.2 lbs treats over 40,000 sq feet.The reviews on amazon are all positive!
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-...TF8&qid=1529433108&sr=8-4&keywords=humid+acid.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been using TV sp-90 commercially for over 10 years now. Very happy with it. I buy the 10 lb bags.
> 
> I didn't know you could get it through amazon.
Click to expand...

I received mine today.Smells like ashes to me.

How would I go about mixing it?I am gonna use it for my lawn to try and fix some of this compaction with this red clay I have.Most places in my lawn I cant take a screwdriver all the way in.


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## Denni89627

I bought that same one on amazon. It's a super fine black powder. If I remember correct you were supposed to take 8 oz of powder and mix into one gallon of water, this makes the concentrate. You then take one ounce of the concentrate and mix with one gallon to treat 1000sq ft. I just did the math and used 1/3 of the bag mixed into my 20 gallon sprayer and applied it in the rain. Otherwise I would have had to make over 100 gallons for the treatment.


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## jonthepain

We use 16 oz by volume in our 100 gal tank. This was recommended to me by the owner of Tera-Vita many years ago over the phone. We spray at 1 gal per thousand. Maybe the recommendations have changed since then, idk.
We add kelp to the mix, always have. The reasons for this are explained by grassfactor in another post.
We are mostly dealing with clay soil here. We typically apply twice a year. It's anecdotal but i believe it helps.
Like gf says, just another tool in the toolbox.


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## adgattoni

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with it, not really with Humic Substances and acids, is the way it is promoted. That does it a real disservice. *Per the hype it will do everything and anything, including your laundry.* Humic, and even more so fulvic acid acts as a chelating agent (and lb per lb has an enormous CEC--it is, of course, the stuff of OM) which can help hold and make nutrients available to the turf. That could be particularly advantageous for sandy/low CEC soils.
> My question is how long does it work?
> 
> 
> 
> I know we've talked about it briefly before, but we're working with Eon 75 on fairways with CEC in the low 2s and areas around our bunkers where the sand collects via wind / bunker rake removal. I'm very interested to see the impact in 2-3 months, then again in 6-8 months. The stuff we're using is labeled @ 1lb/k and is said to last through the year....we'll see.
Click to expand...

How did this testing pan out for you @viva_oldtrafford? I'm still super skeptical of HA in general, curious to know if your testing saw any improvements. I'm moving to a new place soon, so pending soil test results I may not need this at all (clay soil, I may have a decent CEC already, we'll see).

I'm curious if this is similar to the multivitamin debate (on face value, taking multivitamin supplements should be a no-brainer, but studies show your body may not even use them, i.e. waste of time/money). This stuff sure is more expensive than a multivitamin too!


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## viva_oldtrafford

adgattoni said:


> viva_oldtrafford said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> My problem with it, not really with Humic Substances and acids, is the way it is promoted. That does it a real disservice. *Per the hype it will do everything and anything, including your laundry.* Humic, and even more so fulvic acid acts as a chelating agent (and lb per lb has an enormous CEC--it is, of course, the stuff of OM) which can help hold and make nutrients available to the turf. That could be particularly advantageous for sandy/low CEC soils.
> My question is how long does it work?
> 
> 
> 
> I know we've talked about it briefly before, but we're working with Eon 75 on fairways with CEC in the low 2s and areas around our bunkers where the sand collects via wind / bunker rake removal. I'm very interested to see the impact in 2-3 months, then again in 6-8 months. The stuff we're using is labeled @ 1lb/k and is said to last through the year....we'll see.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How did this testing pan out for you @viva_oldtrafford? I'm still super skeptical of HA in general, curious to know if your testing saw any improvements. I'm moving to a new place soon, so pending soil test results I may not need this at all (clay soil, I may have a decent CEC already, we'll see).
> 
> I'm curious if this is similar to the multivitamin debate (on face value, taking multivitamin supplements should be a no-brainer, but studies show your body may not even use them, i.e. waste of time/money). This stuff sure is more expensive than a multivitamin too!
Click to expand...

I'm testing later this month, so I'll find out then. Visibly nothing has really changed.


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## Ridgerunner

I thought I'd grab the shotgun and do a little spraying.
Over the years I've collected some bookmarks on this topic and thought I'd share a few of them from which you can draw your own conclusions. I read with an eye on trends and general consensus and have personally concluded that the benefits of Humic Substance additions could be substantial. I appoligize as some of these have been posted before and I encourage others to post studies/articles:

General Background, History and Terminology

https://humates.com/pdf/ORGANICMATTERPettit.pdf
https://soils.ifas.ufl.edu/media/soilsifasufledu/sws-main-site/pdf/technical-papers/Schroeder_Amy_Immediate_Release.pdf
With comment by researcher K H Tan:
https://humicacid.wordpress.com/a-history-of-humic-acid-research/

Opinions and Commentary

https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html
https://www.turfmagazine.com/lawn-care/the-case-for-humic-acids/

Articles and Studies of Humic Substances (HA/FA to brown coal) and hodge podge

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/add3/1c27f4ecb2535544b712227969e256b89b7b.pdf
https://themodern.farm/studies/Effects%20of%20humic%20acids%20from%20vermicomposts%20on%20plant%20growth.pdf
http://www.pjss.org/artykuly/pjss/Polish_Journal_of_Soil_Science_2011_44_1_43.pdf
http://fertitech.com/site/DefaultSite/filesystem/documents/Humic%20Substances%20as%20Agronomic%20Inputs%20in%20Biological%20Agricultural%20Systems,%20a%20Review.pdf
http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/Nature%20528,%2060-68,%202015%20Lehmann.pdf
http://www.revistadechimie.ro/pdf/SARBU%20C.pdf%207%2015.pdf
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Ox%20lig%20Technical%20Evaluation%20Report%20%282012%29.pdf
https://www.ams.usda.gov/sites/default/files/media/Humic%20Acid%20TR%202006.pdf
Turf specific:
https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug6.pdf
http://usgatero.msu.edu/v08/n04.pdf and the study https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/thesdiss/vandyke2008c.pdf


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## adgattoni

@Ridgerunner - Thanks for this, will read through this material. I've read a lot about it and I'm partially sold on it (even bought one of the packs from Pete last year). I just can't shake the similarity to chiropractic medicine and essential oils.

I've seen you mention a few times on the forum your primary issue with humic is how it's marketed. While I read through the articles, what in your opinion are it's more solidified benefits and which do you think are far fetched?


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## Ridgerunner

> @Ridgerunner - Thanks for this, will read through this material. I've read a lot about it and I'm partially sold on it (even bought one of the packs from Pete last year). I just can't shake the similarity to chiropractic medicine and essential oils.


I haven't actively researched the topic recently so those linked bookmarks are a couple of years old. Most of the research was done on crop plants with little attention to turf. There are likely to be more recent studies and articles available. Many of the linked articles are annotated or identify the studies or other articles upon which they drew their conclusions, so you may be able to track those down for more detailed information, Be forewarned, unfortunately many are likely to be behind paywalls.



> I've seen you mention a few times on the forum your primary issue with humic is how it's marketed. While I read through the articles, what in your opinion are it's more solidified benefits and which do you think are far fetched?


Some of the benefits that are consistently reported among studies (regardless of crop) are improved shoot and root growth/mass and increased seed germination. In addition, HA does have a chelating component, that enables it to hold nutrients in a state that is more readily available to plant and micro-life. HA also has a high CEC and moisture holding capacity that could prove advantageous in sandy or very low CEC soils, but then again consider the quantities necessary for change when an acre furrow slice of soil is 2 million pounds. Also, when reading, consider the conjecture that HA/FA may have an, as of yet, not understood growth stimulant component.
As to the second issue. I wont say "far fetched", as much as they are unproven. Setting aside claims of HA/FA as a soil aerator and as a wetting agent (see the turf link above for a study regarding HA as a wetting agent). Most studies involve soil application and report significant shoot, root growth and improved plant performance for soil application rates between 20 to 500 ppm. That's between about 1 to 20 lbs of HA/FA per thousand square feet. (Note: studies have found that rates greater than 500 ppm have resulted in detrimental growth). Many HA/FA products are marketed as a liquid with an HA/FA content of about 1 lb per gallon. Recommended application rates are 3-10 oz of product per M. That works out to 0.02 to 0.08 lbs of HA per M. Far less than the effective soil application rates (1-20 lbs/M) found to produce significant plant growth response. That leaves the question of whether foliar application of HA/FA can result in improved plant growth. I haven't seen any supporting studies. Agronomists have opined that HA cannot enter the plant through leaves although it's possible the smaller carbon chain of FA may allow enter through plant cells. Does FA posses any growth stimulant attributes??? Also many of these products contain additional nutrients and growth stimulants (like Kelp extract) that in and of themselves would result in significant plant response unrelated to HA/FA content. Those are a few of the reasons I question some of the marketing claims in general., but to each his own.


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## adgattoni

Thanks for the additional context @thegrassfactor. I think what you've described is exactly what I'm trying to determine: does this have a place in my program? The lingering questions for me are: I do a lot in the lawn already, so am I going to get the bang for my buck spending another $100/year in GCF products? Or is maintaining a fleet of my own golf equipment for optimal cultural practices, hand watering LDS, applying wetting agents, PGR, Fe/micros, weed control and fertilization, etc. going to eclipse the use of HA/SWE products? Your enthusiasm is infectious, but is RGS the real deal, or is the reason your lawns are better simply because you are a much better applicator than your competitors? You're obviously above average compared to the ones I know. I just don't want to be buying it simply to keep up with the Joneses, but I can handle the cost if I can realize benefits.

I am planning to set up a few side by side 10x10 test plots next year (including a control plot). Once I get moved into the new place, I plan to create a journal to document the plan, get feedback on it, and document the results. I have a few visual and non-visual tests in mind, but I'm no agronomist so this will certainly be anecdotal. That study obviously shows some positive benefits, but there also seems to be a limited volume of research on the topic at the moment, which is what triggers my skepticism.

Edit: to the gen pop: I'm not crazy. @thegrassfactor posted a reply but apparently removed it.


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## houstongrassnerd

I've been using the N-EXT products heavily since may. I had very compacted clay soil back then. I pulled some for a soil sample a couple weeks ago and the soil is TOTALLY different. It is hard to explain the texture now- I would say fluffy and lighter maybe.. kinda rubbery- I know that doesn't make sense. It didn't clump together in one mass when i squeezed it in my hand and yes the soil was damp. Roots were super deep. I'm a newb so take my reply with a grain of salt but I believe this stuff works very well. My neighbor uses true green for fertilizer ect. applications so really the big difference between ours is I use N-EXT products- there is a huge difference in not only the quality of the grass but the color and thickness compared to his. His true green guy hates me haha. :lol:


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