# Seed certain areas in the spring or wait...



## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

EDIT:

House purchased Oct '20. So far I have done two rounds of Weed-B-Gone (hose attachment) in the fall and I applied Milo at bag rate around Thanksgiving. Other than that I focused on cleaning up some of the beds, mowing, and picking up leaves. The primary weed that is infesting my lawn is ground ivy/creeping Charlie from what I can tell.

I removed a raised garden from the backyard in the fall and did some "top dressing" in certain areas. I plan to seed this with a pure KBG (Bewitched?) in the fall. What do I do with the bare spot in the spring? The backyard gets mostly shade, partial sun.

I had a [big] tree moved from the front yard a couple weeks ago. They have to come back to take the stump, but assuming the stump will be ground, chips removed, and the area filled with top soil by March. What do I do with the bare spot in the spring? The front yard gets full sun.

Pictures:





My plans this spring - summer are as follows (please critique if necessary):
-Soil test ASAP
-Clean up sticks/debris left over from tree removal ASAP
-PostM down by late-March (Trimec Classic?)
-Spring fertilizer by early-April (Milo?)
-Hand seed bare spots front and back by late-April
-???
-If ground ivy still persistent by mid-May, triclopyr round I
-If ground ivy still persistent by late-May, triclopyr round II
-If ground ivy still persistent by mid-June, sell house
-Start the overseeding process by mid-August (late July if I decide to reno...likely not this year though).


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I'm not a fan of using a generic mix as you call it. Cheaper grass seed can contain weed seeds and unwanted grassy weeds that can give you a difficult time to get rid of later when you want to.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Why overseed this Spring if you're doing a full renovation later this year? Overseeding isn't usually done as a stopgap measure...it's more about fine-tuning an existing lawn or helping it recover from damage. I'm thinking it's a potential waste of money and seed if it's just going to be killed a months later, before it even establishes fully.

Or are you undecided?


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## LawnCube (Feb 7, 2021)

Spot seed the areas that need it. Add a little compost, or scrape the ground before you do. Always use good seed.

Test that soil and work on getting that right through the year.

Then in the fall do a whole reno if you choose. But, keeping weeds under control and adding some seed here and there as needed should suffice. Aerate, Topdress and seed the entire lawn in the fall and next spring you should be looking good.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Green said:


> Why overseed this Spring if you're doing a full renovation later this year? Overseeding isn't usually done as a stopgap measure...it's more about fine-tuning an existing lawn or helping it recover from damage. I'm thinking it's a potential waste of money and seed if it's just going to be killed a months later, before it even establishes fully.
> 
> Or are you undecided?


I am just going to top dress/fix certain areas/overseed in the fall. What I am more concerned about in the spring is what to do with bare spots left by the tree (front yard - full sun) and garden (back yard - mostly shade). Do I just leave them as patches of dirt for the summer and just mow around them?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

ColeLawn said:


>


Make sure they grind down that stump to 6 inches below grade and make them take the wood shavings. Most guys will grind down like 2 inches and leave the shavings. You'll need to fill the hole with topsoil and compost.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

tgreen said:


> ColeLawn said:
> 
> 
> > https://i.postimg.cc/J7f9cmM8/Tree-Removal-1.jpg
> ...


Once I do that, should I seed the bare spot or leave it until the fall when I plan to overseed with KBG? Same question for the backyard.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

If the area will be bare, I'd spot-seed it this spring.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Lawn Noob said:


> If the area will be bare, I'd spot-seed it this spring.


Thank you. Yes, they will be bare dirt.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

tgreen said:


> Make sure they grind down that stump to 6 inches below grade and make them take the wood shavings. Most guys will grind down like 2 inches and leave the shavings. You'll need to fill the hole with topsoil and compost.


This is good information. Leftover wood chips can be a real issue a year and more later.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

ColeLawn said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > ColeLawn said:
> ...


You can seed in the spring and you might get lucky. That's a small area so doesn't hurt to try. Better odds for seeding is in the fall so if spring doesn't work then look to seed in mid august.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Old Hickory said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > Make sure they grind down that stump to 6 inches below grade and make them take the wood shavings. Most guys will grind down like 2 inches and leave the shavings. You'll need to fill the hole with topsoil and compost.
> ...


So I've heard... Unfortunately the town is responsible for removing the tree (at my request) so I don't really have control over the quality of job they do. So far they've done a pretty clean job, all things considered. That being said, regardless of what they leave, I will be removing as much wood (chips, roots, etc.) as possible from the area and filling it with soil first thing this spring.


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## Retromower (Jan 28, 2021)

Id just throw some grass seed down on the bare spots. If you are going to renovate this year or next, you may not to bother though.
Ive got some spots in my yard that were really low and I filled them in with top soil and threw some grass seed down in the fall. Youd be surprised just how much grass sprouted and filled in the bare spots, even in the few weeks that we had before the cold weather set it.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Retromower said:


> Id just throw some grass seed down on the bare spots. If you are going to renovate this year or next, you may not to bother though.
> Ive got some spots in my yard that were really low and I filled them in with top soil and threw some grass seed down in the fall. Youd be surprised just how much grass sprouted and filled in the bare spots, even in the few weeks that we had before the cold weather set it.


That leads me to my next question...

I have a pretty bad weed infestation. I treated the entire lawn with two apps of Weed B Gone last fall but I know I still have ground ivy and other level 2 weeds and probably plenty of level 1 weeds as well. I won't know until mid-March.

My plan was to fertilize early with a slow release (as soon as soil temps reach 40) and shortly after follow up with a broadcast app of Trimec, no surfactant. Depending on results, follow up with 'CCO'.

Should I avoid any herbicides at all since I will be doing some seeding? Trimec says 3-4 weeks, which could push me into May...


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I'm facing a similar predicament due to drainage project. Spring seeding is usually a major fail by Summer but not much to lose besides the cost of the seed and some work. Here's one plan. As soon as (and like even just before) soil temps come up, you can get after Winter weeds with mesotrione and seed the bad spots. Also fertilize with good starter fert. Put the milo away for now - no K. I'd also avoid any other herbicides - the wait is too long. Meso has some residual so it will help with Spring weeds too.

My guess is in your climate, the more shady areas have a chance to survive Summer although KBG wouldn't be my first choice for shady areas. Plan on a weed annihilation for mid to late Summer and then seed again in late Summer / early Fall. I don't know what you think of TTTF but it does pretty well in shade. For the full sun area in the front, KBG is great but my bet is it won't make it to see fourth of July from a Spring seeding - not much to lose by trying.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I'm facing a similar predicament due to drainage project. Spring seeding is usually a major fail by Summer but not much to lose besides the cost of the seed and some work. Here's one plan. As soon as (and like even just before) soil temps come up, you can get after Winter weeds with mesotrione and seed the bad spots. Also fertilize with good starter fert. Put the milo away for now - no K. I'd also avoid any other herbicides - the wait is too long. Meso has some residual so it will help with Spring weeds too.
> 
> My guess is in your climate, the more shady areas have a chance to survive Summer although KBG wouldn't be my first choice for shady areas. Plan on a weed annihilation for mid to late Summer and then seed again in late Summer / early Fall. I don't know what you think of TTTF but it does pretty well in shade. For the full sun area in the front, KBG is great but my bet is it won't make it to see fourth of July from a Spring seeding - not much to lose by trying.


Thank you. Would you broadcast the Tenacity in the spring or just spot spray the weeds? If broadcasting, I should try to avoid the bare spots that I will be seeding, correct?

As for the seed, my goal was to seed 100% of the lawn with the same seed. But I am all ears. I was going to spot seed bare spots this spring and then overseed the entire lawn in the fall. So my plan was to just order 10lb of whatever seed I am eventually going to go with. Due to the shade in the backyard, I came up with the following blend:


30% Everest KBG

30% Blue Note KBG

30% Mazama KBG

10% SS9000 PRG
This blend will need 3#/1k seeding rate so I figured a 10lb bag would be plenty to get me through the 2020 season (spot seed spring, overseed fall). I can get the price down about $10 by adding more PRG, but the seed rate goes up to 4#/1k so it only leaves me 2lb of seed of wiggle room in case I screw something up.

Most of my research so far has been around KBG or PRG, but I'd love to learn more about TTTF. Any recommended cultivars or blends? My only gripe is my backyard/side yard is _maybe_ 1k, so it can get pricey going with different seed types on different parts of my lawn.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I'd seed and then blanket spray tenacity in that area the same day. Put your normal pre emergent everywhere else.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Lawn Noob said:


> I'd seed and then blanket spray tenacity in that area the same day. Put your normal pre emergent everywhere else.


I was actually going to skip PreM this year. My [new-to-me] lawn is already like 85% weeds, maybe more. I was going to focus on PostM this year (Triangle Approach).

My plan was starter fert late March, scalp early April, PostM (Trimec) mid-April and then seed down by mid-May. Now that i think about it, I may focus on getting seed down by mid-April and then worry about PostM later on. "Seed down" = bare spots. I am not overseeding in the spring!!!

Critique as necessary. I am new to this and just kind of putting together a plan based on my research so far so I am open to suggestions, critiques, advice, etc.


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## etakmit (Oct 31, 2020)

Dont forget that odds are good no matter how you fill that stump spot - it WILL sink as well.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

ColeLawn said:


> Thank you. Would you broadcast the Tenacity in the spring or just spot spray the weeds? If broadcasting, I should try to avoid the bare spots that I will be seeding, correct?
> 
> As for the seed, my goal was to seed 100% of the lawn with the same seed. But I am all ears. I was going to spot seed bare spots this spring and then overseed the entire lawn in the fall. So my plan was to just order 10lb of whatever seed I am eventually going to go with. Due to the shade in the backyard, I came up with the following blend:
> 
> ...


I think everybody has a different way and they all work but as a matter of efficiency, if I was mixing up a batch of Tenacity I'd mix enough to blanket the lawn and do that as part of the seeding. Tenacity sprayed at time of seeding won't do much if any harm to new grass. If you have a lot of Winter weed salad, it will zap a lot of that with one mix and one app. The residual effect should help keep some of the early crabgrass at bay as well. You can zap any crabgrass breakthrough with quinchlorac 28 days after your KBG germinates. I am not a fan of preemergents on new baby grass.

If you're not ready to try some TTTF in the shadier spots, try the KBG and see how it does. If it's too shady it will let you know by thinning. If it does well enough then let it be. Sod farms have plenty of sod for anybody who wants instant lawn. Sounds like you have enough patience to try some things out and see how it goes.

As a sort of end game plan no matter what happens this Summer, kill remaining weeds in Summer and seed late Summer; Reseed any spots that didn't take or don't seem to look right through early Fall. Do that a couple years in a row and you'll have a very nice lawn.

If the KBG isn't liking the shade I'd go with the fescue from GCI Turf. I've used many different types of seed over the years and Pete's stuff is like magic beans as far as germination and aggressive seedling growth and good genetic color. There are higher NTEP score cultivars, blah, blah, if you're not an expert turf agronomist, all the "good" cultivars pretty much look the same - phenomenal if grown in a dense, healthy stand.

Also remember that every Fall is like a new chapter - if you try something one Fall and it doesn't work out, the next Fall a little bit of gly and some seed and you get to try something else.

One other note, I seem to remember a research report someplace that mixing PRG with other cool season grass types can be a problem. Something about the PRG having an allelopathic effect and taking over the stand. It's a vague memory but you might want to check on that before including the PRG in the mix.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I think everybody has a different way and they all work but as a matter of efficiency, if I was mixing up a batch of Tenacity I'd mix enough to blanket the lawn and do that as part of the seeding. Tenacity sprayed at time of seeding won't do much if any harm to new grass. If you have a lot of Winter weed salad, it will zap a lot of that with one mix and one app. The residual effect should help keep some of the early crabgrass at bay as well. You can zap any crabgrass breakthrough with quinchlorac 28 days after your KBG germinates. I am not a fan of preemergents on new baby grass.
> 
> If you're not ready to try some TTTF in the shadier spots, try the KBG and see how it does. If it's too shady it will let you know by thinning. If it does well enough then let it be. Sod farms have plenty of sod for anybody who wants instant lawn. Sounds like you have enough patience to try some things out and see how it goes.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your feedback so far. And Tenacity can be sprayed at the time of seeding TTTF as well as KBG, right? I know people use it when seeding KBG, but like I said haven't really done much research on TTTF.

Question: Being shaded, the backyard also traps and retains moisture (should get better as I bring in some soil). Does this not cause concern for disease or other fungus issues in TTTF?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

One last comment (I promise lol), around here, mid-March is already getting on the late side for anything to have a snowball's chance come Summer. KBG is even more of a challenge due to slow germination. I don't know what the climate is like where you are but once frost risk to seedlings has passed, I'd get that seed out pronto.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

ColeLawn said:


> Thank you for your feedback so far. And Tenacity can be sprayed at the time of seeding TTTF as well as KBG, right? I know people use it when seeding KBG, but like I said haven't really done much research on TTTF.
> 
> Question: Being shaded, the backyard also traps and retains moisture (should get better as I bring in some soil). Does this not cause concern for disease or other fungus issues in TTTF?


Ok, one more comment lol. All the time damp in hot weather is a time tested recipe for fungus no matter what grass type. It tends to be even worse for baby grass. I don't think TTTF is any more or less prone to problems than KBG. Around here (transition zone) the usual method to address fungus is a fungicide program over the fungus pressure season, limit irrigation to twice a week and grass seed in Fall. Note also that grass seed tends to be much cheaper than many fungicides 😀.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Delmarva Keith said:


> One last comment (I promise lol), around here, mid-March is already getting on the late side for anything to have a snowball's chance come Summer. KBG is even more of a challenge due to slow germination. I don't know what the climate is like where you are but once frost risk to seedlings has passed, I'd get that seed out pronto.


Keep them coming!

Mid-march is very hit or miss here. We can get consistent 50+ days or one day see 60 and the next see 6" of snow. Okay, so then if I target mid-March to get seed and Tenacity down, when should the starter fert go down? We'll be dealing with consistent frost at least into early-March I would imagine. Maybe later since this winter got off to a late start.

Also, the more I look at TTTF the more I like it. I was hoping to be able to mow around 1.5"-2.5", but I can get a 25lb bag of GCI TTTF for $85 versus a 10lb bag of custom mix KBG from SS for $113. The overseeding rate of an existing poor lawn is 6-8#/1k for the TTTF so 25# is enough to practically overseed twice, assuming I put down 7#/1k. Hmmmm....


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> One other note, I seem to remember a research report someplace that mixing PRG with other cool season grass types can be a problem. Something about the PRG having an allelopathic effect and taking over the stand. It's a vague memory but you might want to check on that before including the PRG in the mix.


Good call on PRG eventually dominating a mixed stand of KBG and/or TF. Here's an extract and link to discussion of this point.

_Various mixtures of tall fescue, Festuca arundinacea Schreb., Kentucky bluegrass, Poa pratensis L., and perennial ryegrass, Lolium perenne L., may be beneficial for turf culture because of genetic diversity and improved tolerance to environmental stresses compared with a single species. Turf-type tall fescue, dwarf tall fescue, Kentucky bluegrass, and perennial ryegrass were seeded as cultivar blends and in all possible combinations as species mixtures in two locations, irrigated and nonirrigated. Turf was mowed at 19 and 51 mm and subjected to an interval of brief, but intensive, simulated traffic. *Perennial ryegrass was the dominant species in all mixtures with tall fescue, Kentucky bluegrass, or both.* After 5 years, turf-type tall fescue comprised 62% of mixtures with Kentucky bluegrass when averaged over locations. Dwarf tall fescue comprised 48% of mixtures compared with Kentucky bluegrass at 44%. Kentucky bluegrass was more competitive with tall fescue in the irrigated vs. nonirrigated location. Mowing height effected small changes in populations year to year while simulated traffic had little effect on populations at 1 year following treatment. The advantage of mixing species compared with individual species to reduce disease occurrence was evident on several occasions. Our study supports earlier research reports that tall fescue will remain competitive in mixture with Kentucky bluegrass several years after seeding._

https://turf.missouri.edu/stat/reports/report98/fescue.htm


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

ColeLawn said:


> Keep them coming!
> 
> Mid-march is very hit or miss here. We can get consistent 50+ days or one day see 60 and the next see 6" of snow. Okay, so then if I target mid-March to get seed and Tenacity down, when should the starter fert go down? We'll be dealing with consistent frost at least into early-March I would imagine. Maybe later since this winter got off to a late start.
> 
> Also, the more I look at TTTF the more I like it. I was hoping to be able to mow around 1.5"-2.5", but I can get a 25lb bag of GCI TTTF for $85 versus a 10lb bag of custom mix KBG from SS for $113. The overseeding rate of an existing poor lawn is 6-8#/1k for the TTTF so 25# is enough to practically overseed twice, assuming I put down 7#/1k. Hmmmm....


For the TTTF vs KBG, it's right plant, right place type of a thing. In other words, if it's too shady or too dry for KBG, TTTF may do better. If you try KBG in that area and it thins or just fails to thrive, your choice is easy.

For when to seed, there's some trial and error based on your climate. Like I said at first, Spring seeding at all is an almost guaranteed fail around here unless there is some relief from full sun and even then it's a "better than nothing" thing to try, at best. The more growing time before surface roots get cooked in the sun, the more likely it will make it. I guess use good judgment for when frost risk has passed - a little on the early side is likely better than being on the late side. I usually buy at least about 1/3 more seed than I need every Fall. There are going to be bad spots that need a touch up and weather that does screwy things, etc. Growing living plants can be a bit of a crapshoot so have an idea for when things don't quite go as planned.

I'll be using some of my leftover seed this Spring to fix turf damage after the drainage project I mentioned. If it all dies, no big deal. Fall is always just around the corner 😀.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

tgreen said:


> Good call on PRG eventually dominating a mixed stand of KBG and/or TF. Here's an extract and link to discussion of this point.


Good stuff.

The PRG idea was to provide quick germination to maybe help the KBG through the summer. I saw a Purdue study (I can link it if you'd like) that showed a success rate of KBG in different ratio mixtures with PRG. A 95/5 ratio resulted in ~73% of the KBG surviving, or something along those lines. KBG survival rate dropped off dramatically as the % of PRG in the mix increased though.

Realistically, no matter what I do, I won't be able to do a full reno or achieve a weed free monostrand lawn in 2021. Therefore I am OK experimenting and trying new things. I'm also OK adding 10% more shade tolerant KBG.

GCI TTTF is intriguing too... a lush green 2,000sq lawn at 4" would certainly stand out around here :nod:


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Delmarva Keith said:


> For the TTTF vs KBG, it's right plant, right place type of a thing. In other words, if it's too shady or too dry for KBG, TTTF may do better. If you try KBG in that area and it thins or just fails to thrive, your choice is easy.
> 
> For when to seed, there's some trial and error based on your climate. Like I said at first, Spring seeding at all is an almost guaranteed fail around here unless there is some relief from full sun and even then it's a "better than nothing" thing to try, at best. The more growing time before surface roots get cooked in the sun, the more likely it will make it. I guess use good judgment for when frost risk has passed - a little on the early side is likely better than being on the late side. I usually buy at least about 1/3 more seed than I need every Fall. There are going to be bad spots that need a touch up and weather that does screwy things, etc. Growing living plants can be a bit of a crapshoot so have an idea for when things don't quite go as planned.
> 
> I'll be using some of my leftover seed this Spring to fix turf damage after the drainage project I mentioned. If it all dies, no big deal. Fall is always just around the corner 😀.


Thought I'd offer an update, probably the last one in an effort to let this thread fall to the bottom and stop cluttering this subforum. That being said, Compulsive is my middle name and I took your advice and went with a 25lb bag of GCI TTTF. I will be using TTTF on the entire yard, front and back. I have changed things up a bit and will be doing a full top dress/overseed this spring in the back yard. Getting this done in the spring will allow me to focus on prepping the rest of the yard (soil amendment, weed control, landscaping, filling and top dressing) so that by the fall I am ready to overseed the front and side yards.

Worst case scenario - full reno in fall '22.

Good luck on your drainage project and thank you for your advice!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ColeLawn said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > Good call on PRG eventually dominating a mixed stand of KBG and/or TF. Here's an extract and link to discussion of this point.
> ...


In Western NY, a low amount of PR is unlikely to take over. Keep it to 15% or less by weight. The reason is that it doesn't like the cold we get in the Northern areas as much as the other grasses do. I would use some PR in a Spring seeding if it was in my plan to use it anyway.

For Tenacity, go by soil temps. Mid March might be too early...some years, the soil might still be frozen. I go by 50F at 4 inches, though there might be better guidelines.

As far as KBG, I've found shade tolerance tends to be pretty bad. Not just due to lack of light, but the damp soil in late Winter while shaded causes the roots to break down in some cases. The problem doesn't seem nearly as bad with Fescues. Unless you have full sun most of the year, and excellent drainage, all KBG in all parts of a property may not be the best option.

Edit: I see you decided on TTTF. It will serve much the same purpose as PR, but needs to be seeded as a higher proportion of a mix (say 80% instead of 10%) because it's less aggressive during the first year or two.


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