# TTTF Opinions - Firecracker LS, Rebel V & Penn RK4



## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hey All,
Been reading the forum for a while, but finally decided to join today. Anyway, hoping for some opinions on a TTTF seed blend that was delivered to me today.

Local distributor for MVS had a blend listed as Firecracker SLS, Titanium 2LS and Supersonic. The blend that was delivered was Firecracker LS, Rebel V, and Penn RK4. Obviously not the same and not what I was expecting, but it's what I have now. I've been trying to find info and pics of these particular cultivar but haven't been able to find much (particularly of Penn RK4), possibly because they are older? From what I have been able to find, it appears that the delivered blend is not as good as what I was expecting to receive. If anyone has any opinions/ info / thoughts / pics they would be willing to share, I'd really appreciate it!

FYI cost of the blend was $91 truck delivered (in state) - 90% germ rate; 0.25% inert matter; 0.00 weed seed; 0.03% Other Crop; No Noxious Weeds Found.

The 50# TTTF blend will be mixed with a 10# blend of Blueberry, Blue Note, Everest, Nu Glade, and Arrowhead prior to overseeding in about 2 months. (existing lawn is a mix of the Lesco Metro and Park Mix seeds with a "high maintenance" Hybrid organic fert program)

Thanks,
JD


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Welcome to TLF.
I don't know anything about Rebel V or Penn RK4. I seem to remember a name brand using some of the Rebel line in their bags (Pennington, perhaps. I'm not sure if it is the same line). I cannot say anything positive or negative about them.

But,
Here is what I would do in your situation:
I would get my money back and look elsewhere. Why?
If someone showed up to my house tomorrow and said, I'm going to seed with Firecracker, Titanium, and Supersonic and the bag is 0.00 weed seed and 0.00 other crop, I would say, please and thank you.
If someone showed up to my house tomorrow and said, I'm going to seed with Firecracker, Rebel, and Penn RK4 and the bag is .03 other crop, I would say, thanks, but no.

To me, the .03 other crop makes the most difference. You don't know what that other crop might be. Also, to my mind, changing from Titanium and Supersonic to two cultivars that I really don't know anything about is a no-go. If the substitutions were instead cultivars like Raptor III, Leonardo, Speedway, and Regenerate, I would be OK with the substitutions.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@JDLax021 , There's no practical difference between Firecracker LS and SLS. My lawn was originally seeded with LS, but I can't find it anymore, so I use SLS now.

The other two, Rebel V and Penn RK4, are not Mountain View, but at least one is Pennington, as mentioned above.

Regardless of what you do, could you please post a photo of the seed tag for us, showing the percents and test dates, when you get a chance? I was told Firecracker LS was no longer available. Thanks!


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

SLS as far as i know is just the "salt resistant" version of LS. So if you live in an area that gets roads salted and plows pushing said salted snow onto your grass you might care, otherwise dont worry.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Thanks for the welcome @social port from what I have found, both the Rebel V and Penn RK4 are Pennington seeds from the 2012 and 2007 ntep trials I believe. However the information provided for these cultivars wasn't as well documented as that of the more recent 2017 trial (IMO).

Something I did find interesting is that the Penn RK4 has been rated among the best for needing the least amount of water input.

@Green Correct Rebel V and Penn RK4 are both Pennington and atleast Rebel was developed by Rutgers. Pennington also has a seed line called "The Rebels".

Trying to attach a pic of the tag. Hopefully it loads. How do you like the LS? Have any pics you'd be willing to share? url=https://postimages.org/]

@FuzzeWuzze Glad to hear there's little to no difference between the Firecracker LS and SLS, other than the salt tolerance. Unfortunately living outside of Boston, MA, they love their salted roads. Not sure how much of a difference that would really make though. The battle for the first 2 ft of yard at the road is a miserable challenge!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@JDLax021, thanks. It appears that there is Firecracker LS in that blend. I would ask the actual seed supplier (presumably the blacked out parts) if it's truly LS or if it was mislabeled and is SLS. I've seen labeling errors before.

And if the cultivar differences and crop seed bother you, ask for an exchange. If it's not as huge an issue to you, perhaps they would still reimburse you a small amount for the inconvenience...?

As far as the Firecracker, I have it in a mix with Bullseye and 3 KBG cultivars. There are some photos in my journal.

With respect to road salt, I use gypsum in the early Spring on those areas near the road and it helps a lot.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

@Green 
I was really more surprised than anything, I had done a lot of research and searching to find a blend that I liked and this place had it in their catalog. I used ntep, Rutgers and a couple other reports to gather data and other ratings for the things that are most important to me.

The original SLS blend came in at an average of a 6.74 rating where the new LS blend came in at a 6.46 rating. Over all not a huge difference, but the genetic color value went down as did the brown patch resistance for the Penn RK4 I believe.

The blacked out area is the supplier, it's my first order with them, so I want to do some real testing with the product before giving the name out. Also don't want to "throw them under the bus" for the difference is the seed cultivars.

Interesting about the gypsum. I've tried it here and there in the past after aerating to assist with preventing some compaction, but didn't feel it did much. I'll have to give it a shot for the salt neutralizing capability. How much do you use? After some reading, it seems that the recommendation really varies. I've seen 50lb/1000 all the way to 250lb/1000. (250 seems like it would be excessive)

I'm still debating on that KBG mix I mentioned. I might try to get a 10lb blend of 2-3 cultivars. Maybe bedazzled, bluenote, and midnight or blueberry.

JD


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Update: 
Reached out to the suppler to ask about the cultivar. Rep said he didn't notice he tag, but that it would be because they ran out of and we're unable to get the original blend, so they put together the best of what they are able to get.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

JDLax021 said:


> Update:
> Reached out to the suppler to ask about the cultivar. Rep said he didn't notice he tag, but that it would be because they ran out of and we're unable to get the original blend, so they put together the best of what they are able to get.


And was it truly "LS"? Guessing it was. 
Keep us updated.

Gypsum: I've seen 30 lb per thousand recommended, but I don't really measure because it's the first couple of feet near the road and I throw down more where I think it's needed based on how much damaged there is, or salt used. I'm sure I'm not exceeding the recommended amounts.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

JDLax021 said:


> @Green
> I was really more surprised than anything, I had done a lot of research and searching to find a blend that I liked and this place had it in their catalog. I used ntep, Rutgers and a couple other reports to gather data and other ratings for the things that are most important to me.
> 
> The original SLS blend came in at an average of a 6.74 rating where the new LS blend came in at a 6.46 rating. Over all not a huge difference, but the genetic color value went down as did the brown patch resistance for the Penn RK4 I believe.
> ...


I wouldnt even think twice about 6.74 vs 6.46, you have to realize that this isnt done THAT scientifically, its not like they put it in some fancy camera and analyze the color. Different people in different weather conditions are monitoring these plots, they probably agree what is a 6 and what is a 7 but beyond that its just noise. Honestly from my experience anything that can get 7 or greater is what i'd consider dark, 8+ is like super dark midnight kbg.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

JDLax021 said:


> I'm still debating on that KBG mix I mentioned. I might try to get a 10lb blend of 2-3 cultivars. Maybe bedazzled, bluenote, and midnight or blueberry.


Honestly, Blueberry might be too dark with those other KBG and Tall Fescues.

If you're looking for different categories (e.g. Compact America, Compact, and Compact Midnight) you also don't need both the Bedazzled and BlueNote, since they're both America types. Maybe drop one of those, such as Bedazzled (BlueNote sounds good to me to use...it's also by Mountain View and is a good strong color).

Blueberry is also likely going to grow faster than a lot of the other grasses, so you might not want to deal with that. My experience is that Tall Fescue doesn't grow fast, unless you're doing high Nitrogen inputs.

How about a "Compact" type, too? There are tons.

And then maybe add in a compact Midnight type...if you can't find one better suited to your needs, just use the Midnight like you were planning to do.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

@FuzzeWuzze Haha, I should clarify. the 6.74 vs 6.46 is my weighted total average (out of 9) for the categories that I determined to be most important for the yard. The actual difference in category could be higher or lower. I don't have the exact scores on hand, but will post later.

@Green Yes, it is the firecracker ls cultivar. Guess I'll be giving gypsum a shot, seems like it could be beneficial. Particularly in my front and one side of the yard.

I'll have to check into the growth rates a little more for the *** cultivars. The original blend I posted was the Sure Shot blend from United Seeds. My mixing 5# of the blend with 50# TTTF I'd have 91% TTTF & 9% KBG (by weight) through the blend and whatever remains from the existing lawn... Not doing another full reno, just a short cut with PGR, address a few areas with compost or new topsoil and overseed.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Update: Below is my record of the 2 TTTF Blends. I slightly mis-remembered the scores. 6.92 vs 6.69 for the overall averages.



Here is the info I was able to find for the KBG blend.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Hey All,
Realized I never made a post updating the progress. I ended up using the 50lb of Firecracker LS, Revel V, and Penn RK4 that I received in a slice seeder then broadcast the 5 lb of Arrowhead, Bluenote, Everest & Legend. It's been coming in great, although a few spots are still a little thin, I'll do some touch up next year with a very similar blend.

Process I used:
- 2 application of broadleaf and crabgrass killer 2 weeks apart using my trailered boom sprayer. 
- Mow down to 2 inches, then spray with T-Nexx growth inhibitor and Methylated Seed Oil surfactant
- Following week, mow down to 0.75", heavy aeration followed by a wire time power rake and complete blowing to remove all debris
- (Sept 4-5) 2 days later completely remove all soil immediately along the edge of the driveway and road, as well as an area that would die every year.... found a massive piece of ledge that would need a jackhammer and 20klb excavator to remove.... needless to say, its still there.
- Following day replace all removed soil with new 50/50 blend compost/loam and relevel areas which have settled; spread starter fert, 2x dose of lime, slice/broadcast seed, light rake over everything and water.
- Applied a 2nd dose of starter fert 3.5 weeks in
- Watering has been done through the irrigation system (P.S. I hate the Hunter Pro-C controller and am considering replacing it, any recommendations?)

Thanks to everyone who chimed in to give me an opinion on the different blend of seed I received vs what was ordered and expected. -JD

Anyway here are the photos of the lawn from the first mow (3 weeks ago now - 3rd mow will be either today or tomorrow)


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Good that things are working out. Keep updating.



JDLax021 said:


> - Watering has been done through the irrigation system (P.S. I hate the Hunter Pro-C controller and am considering replacing it, any recommendations?)


I don't have a problem with the controller, personally, but one option if you don't mind keeping it but want a newer interface and features, is to buy the HPC faceplate for it as a retrofit. Only thing is, it's compatible with only the more recent Pro-C controllers, not the older ones (made before 2014?? Don't quote me on that.) Otherwise, you can put in a whole new controller of a different type/brand.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Thanks @Green ! I'll try to remember to keep posting pics. As for the Hunter Pro-C, its more the operation, specifically of the "Seasonal Adjust" feature. Depending upon the date, not even the weather, it will change the set irrigation durations to as low as 10% of what I have it set to..... When seeding that sucks, and I've had to remember to change it back to 100% every day. From what I found, the feature can't be turned off.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah, don't use the seasonal adjust feature. I have never used it. It really isn't useful for grass irrigation. Turn it off and change your programs and run times according to the season yourself, manually. For example: in May, June, and September once every 5 to 8 days and enough time to put down an inch. July and August: 2-3 times a week at a half inch. Those are good starting points.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

@Green 
Completely agree that its useless. Were you able to turn it off? I haven't found a way to.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

JDLax021 said:


> Green
> Completely agree that its useless. Were you able to turn it off? I haven't found a way to.


I never turned the feature on. I'll look in my manual and let you know. If I can't find a way, you can always do the factory reset, and that should do it. If that doesn't work, it likely means there's something wrong with your controller.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@JDLax021, I'm looking at the manual now. I think this is what you need:

Set the dial to the seasonal adjust position. Then, go up or down until 100 is displayed. This turns off the seasonal adjust.
-Are you saying that after doing that, the controller resets itself to other values? If so, we'll go to the next step.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

@Green 
Yup. I turn the dial to seasonal adjust. Set it to 100% and the next day it goes right back to 10%.

I've tried reprogramming all of the durations after making sure it was set to 100% too. I just want the damn feature off haha.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

JDLax021 said:


> Green
> Yup. I turn the dial to seasonal adjust. Set it to 100% and the next day it goes right back to 10%.
> 
> I've tried reprogramming all of the durations after making sure it was set to 100% too. I just want the damn feature off haha.


Ok. There are some more things we can try.

First, a couple of questions and a request.

1.) Does the percentage (that it resets itself to) very by the season? Or does it always revert back to 10% ?

2.) Can you take a couple of photos? A photo of your controller faceplate, and another of the back wiring, behind the faceplate?

There are at least 2 more potential control/setting adjustments we can try next, without rewiring anything yet, lol.


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## JDLax021 (Jul 24, 2019)

Green said:


> @JDLax021, I'm looking at the manual now. I think this is what you need:
> 
> Set the dial to the seasonal adjust position. Then, go up or down until 100 is displayed. This turns off the seasonal adjust.
> -Are you saying that after doing that, the controller resets itself to other values? If so, we'll go to the next step.


Thanks @Green. Sorry for the delayed reply. Irrigation got shut down last year and I hadn't logged back on since. Unfortunately I have done that, and no matter how many times I reset it, it always changes back to what it wants. I swear the damn thing has a mind of its own. Partially wondering if it has something to do with the solar sync, even though I've tried the bypass on that.

Anyway, the Reno from last fall is looking decent. A few thin areas particularly in the more shady areas of the lawn, a couple others that completely washed out, and a serious case of poa on half of the back yard. The main area of the front yard looks good though.

I'm going to continue to treat everything throughout the year with the plan I developed, and over seed this fall to help thicken everything up. Will kill off all the poa and start over in those patches too obviously.

Thinking of blending this for the fall (should take better in the shade than last years):
25lb 4th Millennium
25lb Traverse 2SRP
2.5lb bewitched
2.5lb Mazama

Here are a couple pics of the front yard (nobody wants to see the poa in back) haha


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