# Cannot maintain HOC



## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Here lately it seems I cannot maintain my HOC and keep a green lawn. I mow every 3 days, Monday, Thursday, Sunday...et

Every time I cut my lawn is yellow. I try to not take more than a 3rd off but there's no way to avoid it. In such a short time my lawn grows about 1/2". When I cut at the same height it yellows my lawn.

To prevent this I have to raise the height and while it will be green for that cut in a few days it has outgrown that height and will yellow again if I continue to mow at the same height. Without pgr I don't know what else to do.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

How much are you fertilizing? Can you cut that back?


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## Christech11 (Mar 26, 2019)

PGR and your problems are solved


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Christech11 said:


> PGR and your problems are solved


This is the answer right here. Next season I'm spraying from May to August


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> Christech11 said:
> 
> 
> > PGR and your problems are solved
> ...


Ditto. In previous seasons I would struggle and it was just normal to bump up, bump up, bump up, scalp, and repeat. PGR solved that problem. This season, it only became an issue when life got in the way of mowing for extended periods.

PGR has many other advantages than slowing down top growth as well.


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## Two9tene (May 27, 2018)

MeanDean said:


> Here lately it seems I cannot maintain my HOC and keep a green lawn. I mow every 3 days, Monday, Thursday, Sunday...et
> 
> Every time I cut my lawn is yellow. I try to not take more than a 3rd off but there's no way to avoid it. In such a short time my lawn grows about 1/2". When I cut at the same height it yellows my lawn.
> 
> To prevent this I have to raise the height and while it will be green for that cut in a few days it has outgrown that height and will yellow again if I continue to mow at the same height. Without pgr I don't know what else to do.


Short answer: PGR (T-Nex)


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

I figured pgr was the only answer.

I've been spoon feeding my lawn over the last 2 months at a rate of 1/2 lb of N every 2 weeks. In 3 days my lawn will grow close to 1/2". When I make a pass with my mower you can see the ledge and it's always amazing to see the growth in such a short time.

If I keep raising my mower to prevent the yellowing I'll be at 3" before I know it lol

It really got bad when we went on our cruise a few weeks ago. I had a neighbor mow for me while I was gone using his TruCut and he was letting it get too tall between cuts so when we returned and I mowed at 5/8" it scalped it badly.

I'll be building a sprayer over the winter and will be set come spring next year.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> CenlaLowell said:
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> 
> > Christech11 said:
> ...


That's where I'm at now... Slowly raising little by little each cut until each new level is no longer sufficient to keep a green lawn.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

MeanDean said:


> ...I've been spoon feeding my lawn over the last 2 months at a rate of 1/2 lb of N every 2 weeks.


In my opinion, that is a lot of Nitrogen for an established, reel low lawn - especially without PGR.


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## Two9tene (May 27, 2018)

Ware said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > ...I've been spoon feeding my lawn over the last 2 months at a rate of 1/2 lb of N every 2 weeks.
> ...


Heed the Lawn Gods words and purchase some PGR! Lmao


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Ware said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > ...I've been spoon feeding my lawn over the last 2 months at a rate of 1/2 lb of N every 2 weeks.
> ...


What is the recommended amount of N on an established lawn?

I was thinking next year to lower the N and add iron for color.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

MeanDean said:


> Ware said:
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> > MeanDean said:
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I would probably start at about half that and see if you get the response you're looking for. You can always add more. Every lawn is a little different.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > Christech11 said:
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I agree 100%. Life got in the way a few times for me this summer.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> I figured pgr was the only answer.
> 
> I've been spoon feeding my lawn over the last 2 months at a rate of 1/2 lb of N every 2 weeks. In 3 days my lawn will grow close to 1/2". When I make a pass with my mower you can see the ledge and it's always amazing to see the growth in such a short time.
> 
> ...


Mow more often.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Wfrobinette said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > I figured pgr was the only answer.
> ...


I'm mowing every 3 days already... No way in hell am I going to mow more than I already am.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Greens have been maintained at less than 0.3 lb n per month once established.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Greens have been maintained at less than 0.3 lb n per month once established.


Thank you, sir.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Greendoc @Ware

Once lawns are established and we go to say .5 pound of N per month.

This is slow release nitrogen...correct?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

ENC_Lawn said:


> Once lawns are established and we go to say .5 pound of N per month.
> 
> This is slow release nitrogen...correct?


I don't use any straight AS or urea on my bermuda. Not to say you couldn't, but I do not.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

Ware said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > Once lawns are established and we go to say .5 pound of N per month.
> ...


Is there a reason why you don't use straight urea on Bermuda? Is it more stressful/harsh on Bermuda grass?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I prefer the response I get from slow release.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ENC_Lawn said:


> @Greendoc @Ware
> 
> Once lawns are established and we go to say .5 pound of N per month.
> 
> This is slow release nitrogen...correct?


All quick release applied as a spray. No slow release or organic anything. Your N response needs to be totally predictable and controllable.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc @Ware
> ...


So if your lawn is thick and dense should you cut N way back and just use iron for color and other micronutrients?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

A reel low lawn is not supposed to be thick and dense. There is no need to encourage thickness and density in a Zoysia or Bermuda lawn. Words I like to use in describing such lawns is thin and short. Thick and dense brings my mind to bunch type cool season grasses that do not form tangles of stolons and rhizomes.

Correct, NPK is for pushing growth and density, Iron is for color. If you do not need thickness and density, no need for high Nitrogen and high Phosphorus fertilizers. What is normally sold as lawn food is totally wrong for a reel low warm season lawn.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> A reel low lawn is not supposed to be thick and dense. There is no need to encourage thickness and density in a Zoysia or Bermuda lawn. Words I like to use in describing such lawns is thin and short. Thick and dense brings my mind to bunch type cool season grasses that do not form tangles of stolons and rhizomes.
> 
> Correct, NPK is for pushing growth and density, Iron is for color. If you do not need thickness and density, no need for high Nitrogen and high Phosphorus fertilizers. What is normally sold as lawn food is totally wrong for a reel low warm season lawn.


Thanks for the info.

What would your ideal fertilizer ratios look like once your desired density/growth has been achieved?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If returning clippings, 2-1-2 or 3-1-2 with micronutrients at the rate of 0.1 lb N per application. Doing this, your total N applied per month might not be more than 0.2 lb per 1000 sq ft. If not returning clippings, you may need a 1-1-1 if your Phosphorus levels in the soil are low to moderate. Bermuda needs Phosphorus more than a cool season grass, especially cool season grass that is mulch mowed.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> If returning clippings, 2-1-2 or 3-1-2 with micronutrients at the rate of 0.1 lb N per application. Doing this, your total N applied per month might not be more than 0.2 lb per 1000 sq ft. If not returning clippings, you may need a 1-1-1 if your Phosphorus levels in the soil are low to moderate. Bermuda needs Phosphorus more than a cool season grass, especially cool season grass that is mulch mowed.


It's odd you mention phosphorus with so much concern you read about now days regarding run off.

My recent soil test showed my red clay soil to be low in phosphorus but really high in potassium. Next season I plan to supplement phosphorus separately and then retest a few months later. Lawns here are about to go dormant so I figured I would wait.

Would there be a visible difference in a lawn with such a deficiency?

Does an "established lawn" start over each season as the grass comes out of dormancy and begins to Green up and fill in? If so, during this period are high doses of nitrogen okay until everything is back 100%, then slowly taper off to a ratio like 2-1-2 as you mentioned above?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I do not quite call it a full start over. Roots and rhizomes are all in place. Only surface stolons and leaves were killed by frost. This situation is similar to the severe scalp I do to lawns that need restarted. At no time does a reel low lawn need high rates of N except during a grow in where you need rhizome development.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

Regardless of your chosen HOC, the yellow will rise to the top, assuming you don't perform any other cultural practices such as verticutting.

If you think Bermuda grows fast vertically, measure the horizontal growth! These stolons get thicker (and more numerous) and the yellowing rises. Your only option is to raise the HOC, or do something to increase the horizontal growing space. If you verticut, dethatch, or core aerate, you gain horizontal growth room. On a golf green, they do one or more of these cultural practices on a regular basis, normally very lightly so they don't disturb play but maintain that horizontal growth room.

Good luck. The advice is worth what you paid for it.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

So how do guys maintain a set height throughout the entire season without raising it? Pgr May be the only answer.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> If returning clippings, 2-1-2 or 3-1-2 with micronutrients at the rate of 0.1 lb N per application. Doing this, your total N applied per month might not be more than 0.2 lb per 1000 sq ft. If not returning clippings, you may need a 1-1-1 if your Phosphorus levels in the soil are low to moderate. Bermuda needs Phosphorus more than a cool season grass, especially cool season grass that is mulch mowed.


Wow, I heard that Bermuda was a Nitrogen hog and liked about 2-3 lbs monthly. If Bermuda needs Phosphorus why not use a fertilizer with a high P number like a 10-50-10 especially if the soil test shows low P?


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks so much for asking this question, @MeanDean. I had the same issue last year and am having it again this year. I can get a healthy, green Bermuda lawn up until August, and then it starts to lean more yellow than green after mowings.

Interesting info from some folks on here that contradicts a lot of what my newbie-ish skill level would've expected.

Extremely low levels of N? Need to look into this some more.

No slow/organic ferts, only fast-release? I like the sound of that.

I keep coming across a ton of stuff about the wonders of PGR. Is it really that basic in that it simply slows vertical growth? Are there any con's to using it? Usually there's a trade-off somewhere.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

PGR also increases the grass's ability withstand stress, including drought stress, increases the photosynthesis so darker color, increases the resistance to fungal disease, etc etc.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

JayGo said:


> Thanks so much for asking this question, . I had the same issue last year and am having it again this year. I can get a healthy, green Bermuda lawn up until August, and then it starts to lean more yellow than green after mowings.


Like you I've seen guys recommend 1lb of N per month. I met a guy recently who was using up to 2lbs because he was trying to get Bermuda to take over the rest of his lawn.

My backyard gets the hotter afternoon sun and there are no trees filtering light. I mow every 3 days and the difference in growth between my front yard which gets morning sun vs my backyard is unreal. I have a harder time maintaining my HOC in the backyard and the only thing I can contribute it to is the afternoon sun. I also feel August was the hottest month so far for us.


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## TNTurf (Mar 20, 2019)

I went a pound a month when I was spreading it dry. Once I switched to melting and spraying it, I reduced my application .2 per thousand or a bit less and only applied when I was spraying PGR. I also sprayed Feature at the same time. I would skip the nitrogen if it looked like it didn't need it. My lawn was getting thick to the point it was feeling spongy which I dont want. Now with the heat and lack of rain, I have not sprayed anything in the past month and only cut twice maybe. No irrigation so its just drying out which is a bummer but I needed a break.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

For the guys spraying liquid how often are you applying it since it's not a slow release product?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ladycage said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > If returning clippings, 2-1-2 or 3-1-2 with micronutrients at the rate of 0.1 lb N per application. Doing this, your total N applied per month might not be more than 0.2 lb per 1000 sq ft. If not returning clippings, you may need a 1-1-1 if your Phosphorus levels in the soil are low to moderate. Bermuda needs Phosphorus more than a cool season grass, especially cool season grass that is mulch mowed.
> ...


It likes that much N if you like to rotary mow on a virtually daily basis. Next point is that with fertilization it is all about balance. Except in rare instances, most soils need both Phosphorus and Potassium. Which is why 10-10-10, 13-13-13 or 16-16-16 are preferred. I know golf supers that grew excellent fairways and even greens using 16-16-16 as their baseline fertilizer.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> ladycage said:
> 
> 
> > Greendoc said:
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This season I've been using Sunniland 6-4-0 (milo-clone) and a few apps of AS and Urea with Feature. My results were moderate at best. Since scalping two weeks ago, I've started using a simple, cheap 10-10-10 from Lowes at about .6lbs/N per 1000 and have had a pretty decent response. Of course, I'm also reel mowing every other day at .5". I'm not afraid of the frequent mowing but really don't want any growth spurts either. @Greendoc's explanation clears things up for me.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> ladycage said:
> 
> 
> > Greendoc said:
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How often do you recommend soil samples be taken? Does it normally take a while for composition and soil needs to change drastically?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Redtwin said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > ladycage said:
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Limiting factor in your case was Potassium. Unless a soil test tells me otherwise as in more than sufficient Potassium, I apply it at the rate of at least 1/2 as much K as I am applying N. Biosolids, AS, and Urea contain 0 Potassium. Maintenance fertilizers for me are in a 3-1-2 or 2-1-2 ratio. If clippings are collected, I tend towards a 1-1-1 as the maintenance fertilizer.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

@Greendoc Thanks for the additional information. I am in need of a soil test for sure.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

I just saw a 20-20-20 fertilizer so I may buy that to use as a maintenance fertilizer and supplement with Feature+Humic/Fulvic.kelp acid(every two weeks). A friend of mine told me about a 32-52-40 fertilizer but I think that may be to much for me since I have bermuda and my ph is 5.3 so I probably would leech most of the nutrients in that. Understanding how all . this fertilizer stuff works isn't as simple as it seems.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

@Greendoc , if soil test (and local conditions in general) say high phosphorous but low potassium, would you go to say a 15-0-15 or something like that? Or mix your own using soluble AS and potash? Or keep with a product that has a bit of phosphorous?


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> ladycage said:
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> > Greendoc said:
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@Greendoc, if may....

What if my Potassium level is literally off the chart and my lawn is very deficient in Phos? Logic tells me to put down ferts with little to no P. Should one avoid ferts with P in this situation? Or would you still recommend a 1-1-1 or 3-1-2?


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

"So how do guys maintain a set height throughout the entire season without raising it?"

I'm dumb and don't know how to quote another properly. I apologize. Maybe by the next millineum.

Most people sort of have a schedule, like mowing every three days, or mowing on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Saturdays. You add to this schedule to verticut/dethatch/core aerate at certain times in your schedule. You might say "every other week" or some such. The point is mowing alone is not enough.

I have no experience with PGRs, but I can't see how they would eliminate this enhanced schedule. I can see that PGRs probably would allow longer intervals before the extra process.

I'll also admit to being lazy (and cheap) and just raising my HOC until I maxed out (9/16). Then I'd scalp and go back to 3/8. I won't do that in the future.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

LoCutt said:


> "So how do guys maintain a set height throughout the entire season without raising it?"
> 
> I'm dumb and don't know how to quote another properly. I apologize. Maybe by the next millineum.


Just click the bold quotation marks by the post you want to quote and click reply with quote.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

LoCutt said:


> "So how do guys maintain a set height throughout the entire season without raising it?"
> 
> I'm dumb and don't know how to quote another properly. I apologize. Maybe by the next millineum.
> 
> ...


If your mowing schedule can keep up with the growth of the grass then you should not have to do a HOC reset. It's when you miss a day or two and start seeing scalping after the mow that you either have to raise the HOC or reset. PGR's best property regarding vertical growth is that you cut off less when you mow, not necessarily mow less often. Although typically you can mow less often and still cut off less on each cut when properly regulated.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

LoCutt said:


> "So how do guys maintain a set height throughout the entire season without raising it?"
> 
> I'm dumb and don't know how to quote another properly. I apologize. Maybe by the next millineum.
> 
> ...


I could be wrong but dethatching/aerating/verticutting every other week sounds excessive. I thought these were once a season type of things.

The reason the height has to be raised is because of vertical growth rates. Pgr slows vertical growth down while promoting lateral growth.

My neighbor sprayed a few applications this year and maintains his yard around 3/4" and during that period was only mowing every 5 days or so while I was mowing every 3 and struggling to maintain that height.

The only thing I didn't care for was the discoloration of his lawn. It almost had a bronze haze to it. It's hard to explain but it definitely looked different. Perhaps his ratios weren't correct but it did slow down growth for sure.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

For MeanDean,

Two weeks was a poor example; I should have used a larger number. I apologize. I also did a poor job of explaining. I'll try again.

Bermuda grasses (OK we're throwing out coastal and/or other ag-use cultivars) are relatively slow growing vertically, but they are very rapid horizontally. That's one of the reasons Bermuda is the grass of choice on athletic turf. I don't know the effect of PGRs on horizontal growth, but Bermuda needs "room to grow." Regardless of your HOC (vertical), if it's growing it's using up the horizontal space. This is the cause of thatch... horizontal growth. Mowing (unless you get down in this thatch) doesn't affect horizontal space. You vericut/dethatch/aerate to get horizontal space.

Look at greens. They have to maintain their HOC, and they do that by preemptive verticut/dethatch/aeration as part of a regular schedule. Any HOC you pick will eventually have thatch problems unless you're doing something to maintain enough horizontal room. PGRs may very well slow this process, but most of the people on this forum fertilize and water their lawns which (unfortunately) leads to thatch.

By the way, your neighbor's yellowing could be the result of a dull blade.

Someone else made a comment about Bermuda liking "thin and ...". The "thin" is room to grow, and Bermuda wants to take over the world. But I still like the way it feels on my bare feet!

You want an example of fast growing vertically? I used to live in Tampa and my house got Argentine Bahia from the builder. I saw two feet high seed heads the day after I mowed. The stuff is like wire and eats mower blades but it doesn't die when the summer rains are over.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

LoCutt said:


> For MeanDean,
> 
> Bermuda grasses (OK we're throwing out coastal and/or other ag-use cultivars) are relatively slow growing vertically, but they are very rapid horizontally. That's one of the reasons Bermuda is the grass of choice on athletic turf. I don't know the effect of PGRs on horizontal growth, but Bermuda needs "room to grow." Regardless of your HOC (vertical), if it's growing it's using up the horizontal space. This is the cause of thatch... horizontal growth. Mowing (unless you get down in this thatch) doesn't affect horizontal space. You vericut/dethatch/aerate to get horizontal space.


Thanks so much, that was very informative. So my bermuda will be help to fill in the space caused by dead crabgrass and weeds. Im new to understanding Bermuda and how it grows. For some reason it wasn't growing that much horizontally in my lawn so the weeds took over, maybe because my ph is 5.3 so I am adding lime to get it closer to 6, I am also going to use a 32-52-40 fertilizer to see if that helps.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

LoCutt said:


> For MeanDean,
> 
> Two weeks was a poor example; I should have used a larger number. I apologize. I also did a poor job of explaining. I'll try again.
> 
> ...


Thank you!

We built 3 years ago so my Bermuda lawn is fairly young. How long after new sod is installed should one consider aeration and verticutting?

My neighbors lawn wasn't yellow like he was cutting down into the brown stem but bronzey looking after spraying pgr. Not sure if he applied too much or what but it looked like this for at least a week or more.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> How long after new sod is installed should one consider aeration and verticutting?


There is no magic formula you can use. The best way to determine whether you need to act is by looking at your clippings. Your objectives and HOC also play into it; the lower the HOC, the more often horizontal space action needs to be done. The lower your HOC, the more every little thing shows up. That's why lawn services like to mow high. It's less work and tolerates more snafus.

Once you get on a program, it gets easier to determine when you need to verticut/dethatch/aerate. It's also influenced by a groomer if you are using one. I may sound like I come from a golf course background, but I don't. I learned most of what I know by asking supers and that's why I use their examples. If we look at greens, they can't do disruptive procedures on a regular basis; the members wouldn't tolerate it. So they lightly verticut/dethatch/aerate on their (typically Monday)maintenance day. And the course is open the next day. If they require more time, the course has to be closed for more than one day.

Just as you set your HOC, so you determine your depth (severity) of verticut/dethatch/aerate.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

LoCutt said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > How long after new sod is installed should one consider aeration and verticutting?
> ...


Amount of horizontal room you need is also driven by how much water and fertilizer is going down. Ironically, Verticutting/grooming leads to rebound increases in horizontal density because the stolons are being cut, encouraging more branching at each cut point. If I want turf thin, I mow it low. One third rule is also thrown out. I accept 50% being mowed off at once. Mowing at 1/3, causes tremendous density. I do not want to encourage density. Hybrid Bermuda and Zoysia are dense enough without doing things to encourage it


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

I need to encourage density because my grass to extremely thin so I should verticut and fertilize more I guess . but this season is almost over so I next season I'll know how to get more density. My lawn was mostly weeds but since I applied 2-4D, quinclorac and Celsius the weeds have died but the bermuda is slow to fill in the bare spots.


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## Two9tene (May 27, 2018)

ladycage said:


> I need to encourage density because my grass to extremely thin so I should verticut and fertilize more I guess . but this season is almost over so I next season I'll know how to get more density. My lawn was mostly weeds but since I applied 2-4D, quinclorac and Celsius the weeds have died but the bermuda is slow to fill in the bare spots.


That's quite the cocktail! 2-4D and Quinclorac will have some residual in the soil since they are suspended herbicides. This affecting the spread of Bermuda. It will probably fill back in next season.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

It will take time to fill in after going nuclear on weeds. Not necessarily from the herbicides, if the lawn was really bad, it is similar to starting a lawn from plugs in terms of how much grow in needs to be done. In that case, elevated levels of NPK and mowing low is a good idea.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Have you thought about mowing twice a day instead of only 3 times a week?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

wardconnor said:


> Have you thought about mowing twice a day instead of only 3 times a week?


Twice a day??!! That's rebellious!!!


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

I didn't know you could mow 2x a day, lol. What kind of fertilizer provides that much fast growth? I need some


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> It will take time to fill in after going nuclear on weeds. Not necessarily from the herbicides, if the lawn was really bad, it is similar to starting a lawn from plugs in terms of how much grow in needs to be done. In that case, elevated levels of NPK and mowing low is a good idea.


Yes my lawn was terrible thts why I wanted to use the custom fertilizer 12-0-6+0-52-34+6-0-0+14-0-0=32-52-40
but maybe my thinking is faulty. I am getting a 20-20-20 because maybe slow and steady is best? :?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

20-20-20 is as good as it gets for grow in. I consider you in grow in because of the previous weed situation.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> 20-20-20 is as good as it gets for grow in. I consider you in grow in because of the previous weed situation.


Cool, thanks a million. 20-20-20 it is. I'll use the other fertilizers for my vegetables. But I can use the humic/fulvic/kelp once a month on the lawn to supplement the 20-20-20 right or is that overkill?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

You can use the humic/fulvic/kelp even twice a month. My grow in program looks like 1 lb of 20-20-20 per 1000 sq ft every 14 days.


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

oh great, Im going to use your program if you don't mind.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

wardconnor said:


> Have you thought about mowing twice a day instead of only 3 times a week?


Someone is going to read this and think you're serious. I'm just glad it's not me. :lol:


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> 20-20-20 is as good as it gets for grow in. I consider you in grow in because of the previous weed situation.


Sorry to keep asking so many questions, but would this be what you'd use in pretty much any grow in situation? Or dependent on nutrient levels in soil? Mainly, is the phosphorous helpful even if soil levels are fairly high, or would it be better in that case to go with a phosphorous free formula?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Also, I'm assuming if one can't get locally a 20-20-20 for decent price that using a fast release 10-10-10 at twice the amount would be fine?


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

wardconnor said:


> Have you thought about mowing twice a day instead of only 3 times a week?


Have you thought about the fact that grass grows at night? If you want to do that, perhaps you should mow at dark and again about 2AM.

Connor, whatever your drinkin', I want some!

-30-


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## ladycage (Aug 12, 2019)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


LoCutt said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > Have you thought about mowing twice a day instead of only 3 times a week?
> ...


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > 20-20-20 is as good as it gets for grow in. I consider you in grow in because of the previous weed situation.
> ...


Soluble and available P is always good. This goes back to the process by which Phosphorus levels are determined. The soil sample is leached with strong acids or else strong alkaline solutions then that extract is quantitatively analyzed for P levels . I trust my eyes. Grass trying to grow in with insufficient P starts turning odd shades of purple or red.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> Also, I'm assuming if one can't get locally a 20-20-20 for decent price that using a fast release 10-10-10 at twice the amount would be fine?


I am talking about soluble 20-20-20 applied at 1 lb per 1000 sq ft every 14-30 days. Hard to substitute granular 1-1-1 because the soluble stuff has micronutrients added. Other one that, as you know works very well on grass is Miracle Gro 3-1-2 ratio. That can be a good grow in product where the Phosphorus needs are not extreme or it is an excellent maintenance product. In the old days Miracle Gro was 15-30-15. I would not suggest using that formula without additional N and K.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Thank you!


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > Greendoc said:
> ...


Thank you!! I've been thinking this, but had nothing to back it up. Also, the P in my area is, I'm starting to learn and understand, often bound up by various minerals that we also have in abundance. And it wasn't until I went back and hit some bare spots with a 10-10-10 that I saw good fill in in those areas - same with some areas that got the Miracle Gro instead of the low or no phosphorous formulas I was using on the rest of the yard. I think I was treating my yard according to recommendations for established lawns, not grow in situations. This area almost everyone starts from sod, not seed, so recommendations are written for that as well, and I wasn't realizing that until I sat and thought about it.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> Wfrobinette said:
> 
> 
> > MeanDean said:
> ...


 PGR? Im mowing every 5 days at 0.75"

Its worth every damn penny at 0.25 oz per 1k you'll get 3+ years out of a gal. I figure its about $1 and app.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Wfrobinette said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > Wfrobinette said:
> ...


That's insane. How much nitrogen are you putting down?

I'm definitely going to get some pgr next year.


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

Is raising the HOC during the latter part of the season what everyone does to maintain a green lawn?

My lawn was doing awesome through the first week of August, but I think a combination of 50+ days of triple digit temps, no rain, and a leveling job in early July may have stressed my lawn a little. My turf stayed green, but something looked off.
I stumbled on this thread about 3 weeks ago, and I've let the turf grow a half inch taller since then, and it is back to looking awesome.
Is mowing taller as the season goes the norm?


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

JayGo said:


> Is raising the HOC during the latter part of the season what everyone does to maintain a green lawn?
> 
> My lawn was doing awesome through the first week of August, but I think a combination of 50+ days of triple digit temps, no rain, and a leveling job in early July may have stressed my lawn a little. My turf stayed green, but something looked off.
> I stumbled on this thread about 3 weeks ago, and I've let the turf grow a half inch taller since then, and it is back to looking awesome.
> Is mowing taller as the season goes the norm?


From what I've gathered in this post most people have to do a reset at some point if not using PGR


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

MeanDean said:


> From what I've gathered in this post most people have to do a reset at some point if not using PGR


Sometimes I end up doing a reset even with PGR.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Ware said:


> MeanDean said:
> 
> 
> > From what I've gathered in this post most people have to do a reset at some point if not using PGR
> ...


I thought about doing a reset when I first started having issues but with the brutal heat and lack of rain I didn't want to add more stress to my lawn.


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

I think I have an idea but not sure. What is a reset?


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Resetting your height of cut. Let's say you mow at 5/8'' as your maintenance height. To reset you would drop to 1/4'' or 3/8'', scalp, and then raise back up to your maintenance height to keep a green lawn again.


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> Resetting your height of cut. Let's say you mow at 5/8'' as your maintenance height. To reset you would drop to 1/4'' or 3/8'', scalp, and then raise back up to your maintenance height to keep a green lawn again.


Thanks, again, man. That's what I figured....and a bit of a bummer in my case.
I already mow at my rotary's lowest notch, so I couldn't reset. I've been considering the reel mower game for about a year now because of the "scissor" cut, not necessarily to mow at .00001 or anything like that. Good to learn that eesetting is a "thing."


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

This thread should be required reading - full of good knowledge.


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## ccomp83 (May 27, 2020)

@Keepin It Reel i suggest you cut back on your nitrogen. Spoon feeding 1/2 lb every 2 weeks or 1 lb per month seems high for an established lawn. If you want to maintain the green lawn nitrogen is not the only macro or micro nutrient.

Just my 2 cents:
Have you taken a soil test lately? I would stop all nitrogen fertilizing, you probably have enough to get you to the end of the season. I would look into get soil pH corrected (as needed), and get an macro or micros needed that are deficient. Your grass will stay greener longer without having so much vertical growth of 1/2" in 3 days. Then start looking at PGR.

one trick I saw/learned with PGR, dont spray it after you mow. Spray it the day before you mow, it will remove any tip burn. in your case u may want to try to get you yard mowed so that you dont have the yellow stress before you spray PGR cause that color will stay like that for longer. which means you may have to mow more back to back until you like it where you want it, then wait a day or so and spray PGR the day before your next mow.

also dont go balls to the walls on PGR 1st application out. come into it slowly and up your oz as you do more applications. as over applying can lead to longer discoloration that cant be removed without scalping which will cause more discoloration.

Good luck!


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

ccomp83 said:


> @Keepin It Reel i suggest you cut back on your nitrogen. Spoon feeding 1/2 lb every 2 weeks or 1 lb per month seems high for an established lawn. If you want to maintain the green lawn nitrogen is not the only macro or micro nutrient.
> 
> Just my 2 cents:
> Have you taken a soil test lately? I would stop all nitrogen fertilizing, you probably have enough to get you to the end of the season. I would look into get soil pH corrected (as needed), and get an macro or micros needed that are deficient. Your grass will stay greener longer without having so much vertical growth of 1/2" in 3 days. Then start looking at PGR.
> ...


Since this post we have moved...new home, new yard, more knowledge, and lots of changes. Thanks to everyone sharing ideas and providing some great insight on this topic.


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## JayGo (Jun 13, 2019)

@Keepin It Reel, so what you're saying is that seeing its been over 2 years since you asked your question, you're good now? 🤣


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## DurtEsanch (Jan 23, 2021)

Keepin It Reel said:


> Wfrobinette said:
> 
> 
> > MeanDean said:
> ...


Have you considered a scalp to reset your HOC? After that slow down with the Nitrogen and try Ironite.


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## ccomp83 (May 27, 2020)

@Keepin It Reel sorry bud. I didnt do my do diligence on reading and got in a hurry, my bad brotha.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

JayGo said:


> @Keepin It Reel, so what you're saying is that seeing its been over 2 years since you asked your question, you're good now? 🤣


Something like that lol


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