# West KY Fescue Lawn



## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

This is my first post... I'll try to be concise and clear. No promises.

We built a house on 2 lots (acre each)and moved in 2016. I had some really good grass last fall and winter after seeded, but a lot of it was soon overrun by a weed that can't be controlled selectively, I was told by Scott's (they spray for us).

So, once the weed was gone this year I spent a ton of money and tried to level off places with a machine (didn't work so well), dethatched, and used a slit seeder. This was last weekend. Nothing has started to grow yet and I've been watering twice a day (irrigation system). I did this because Scott's was going to charge and arm and a leg, but I ended up spending almost as much and terrible results.

We have clay soil and it's kind of rocky from the construction (not happy about that) in places. I seem to get a lot of runoff in various places, some that are even only slightly sloped.

I feel now that I should've killed everything and used sand and topsoil mix to fix the ruts and divots that occurred from settling and people walking on the wet new lawn last fall. However, my wife would absolutely kill me if I did that now. Plus, it's been unusually cool so far this September so I think I'm probably out of time.

I could still borrow a water filled aerator (I can't spend anymore $ out of fear my wife will divorce me!) and see if that helps with the water runoff. And I don't mind trying spend minimal money fixing some of the worst uneven areas.

I planted a five star fescue, or I tried to plant it is should say.

I only keep up about 36k sq/ft, I let the other acre do what it wants because of expense. Maybe one day I'll work out there, but we don't have irrigation there.

Any thoughts and recommendations? I know I should do a soil test but obviously that won't help this fall. But I plan on sending one later this year. I applied 10-10-10 and lime last weekend, so I know it would be pointless now. 
I tried to be cheap because bought so much rock and soil, so I used a lot of soil we dug up from the pool, hindsight that may be some of my water retention issues.

Thanks for any help and sorry I failed to keep it concise!


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

I'll add that because my first inclination was to kill everything and start over (but was talked out of it by a friend), I had Scott's stop spraying and I now have crabgrass, Bermuda, and assorted weeds throughout. Not terrible, but definitely annoying. At times I've considered letting Bermuda take it but we don't like the dormancy in the winter. I do like how short it can mowed though!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Sorry to hear about the trouble. It is difficult to put so much work into something and then not get anything out of it.

I wish that I could offer definitive guidance, but I cannot. It is difficult to say what went wrong. I'll throw out a speculation or two, but please treat them as speculations only.

I'm encouraged by your report that you've had nice grass growth in the past. That makes me think that, as unhelpful as they are, the construction rocks don't explain your lack of growth.

I'm not sure when the services with Scott's ended, but many herbicides will hinder germination. Depending on when services ended and what was used for weed control, it is possible you are experiencing a lack of germination from previously applied herbicides.

Another thought: Are you certain that you applied sufficient fertilization? I would imagine that you would get at least some growth with minimal fertilization, but still...If you didn't get an adequate rate down, doing so might help you now.

Aeration would certainly not be a bad thing in your situation (new construction, etc), but I'm not sure what it will do for you now that your seed is down.

So, this is where I would start: Look into the what and when of the Scott's services. Then double check your fertilizer applications. In the process, keep watering. There is no harm in hoping that your seedlings are simply shy.

Also, if you are really 'still learning,' then I suggest that you let the idea of renovation go for now. You can always do one down the road at some point.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks for the reply.

Last Scott's service was in May '17. There have been plenty of weeds sprout up that I need to spot spray, as well as Bermuda, so I never would've thought that would be a problem.

I spread 10-10-10 either 250 or 300 pounds over 36k square feet. I'm not sure exactly how much. Is that too little? Any other fertilizer I could put down?

I've been watering 3 times a day and whole some spots begin to dry by the time the next cycle starts, most areas are still pretty dang moist. Guess I could try upping that a little?

Thanks again for any suggestions.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> Last Scott's service was in May '17. There have been plenty of weeds sprout up that I need to spot spray, as well as Bermuda, so I never would've thought that would be a problem.


Pre-emergents can last several months, but if you seeded in September, you should have been in the clear. 
But were you spraying with something after May? It sounds like you have been doing your own weed control since Scott's.


Still learnin said:


> I spread 10-10-10 either 250 or 300 pounds over 36k square feet. I'm not sure exactly how much. Is that too little? Any other fertilizer I could put down?


You could have gone higher, even assuming 300 pounds. Is that rate too low? Probably not. I would think that it would be adequate for germination at least. 
I suppose it is possible that you do need more nutrients to really get things going, but I wouldn't put that explanation for your situation at the top of my list--at least for now.


Still learnin said:


> I've been watering 3 times a day and whole some spots begin to dry by the time the next cycle starts, most areas are still pretty dang moist. Guess I could try upping that a little?


You have an irrigation system, right? That would be a lot of watering if by hand. If you can, go out to look at what is happening to the water on the ground. Is it all getting absorbed, or do you see a lot of puddling? To be exhaustive, I would do these checks at all 3 watering times.

I'm really grasping in the dark on this one, but why don't you take the longest screwdriver that you can find and put it into the ground at random locations throughout your yard. How deep will it go?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> I spread 10-10-10 either 250 or 300 pounds over 36k square feet. I'm not sure exactly how much. Is that too little? Any other fertilizer I could put down?
> 
> I've been watering 3 times a day and whole some spots begin to dry by the time the next cycle starts, most areas are still pretty dang moist. Guess I could try upping that a little?


You could apply up to 10lb per ksqft of 10-10-10 if your soil needs the phosphorus and potassium. There are many choices. Given your lawn size, urea might be the most cost effective option from a coop. You need to make sure it gets watered in.

For germination, up your frequency, 4-5 times a day would be better than longer duration.

I would not advice throwing more lime without a soil test. Our soils normally dont need more lime (most of the time we have too much). Applying too much could make the soil get harder.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Also, I am assuming that you still had some "plants" growing at the time of seeding, be they grass or weeds.
How low did you mow the existing grass/weed before using the slit seeder?


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

I do have irrigation and am seeing quite a bit of runoff and puddling in some areas. I was going to do the baby shampoo aeration this morning, but the sorayer broke. Will try tonight or tomorrow.

I basically let the lawn go except for mowing and the occasional watering since May. I did not personally spray for weeds and the only application of anything by me was the 10-10-10 when I seeded.

I used a slit seeder after the grass had been mowed as low as I could go. The deck was dragging in some places.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

And I plan to get a soil sample to my local ah extension by next week.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

I was considering ordering tenacity and spraying that. Should I go ahead and do it or save the $ for now?


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## monty (Jul 25, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> I was considering ordering tenacity and spraying that. Should I go ahead and do it or save the $ for now?


I find Tenacity to be a very useful herbicide to have around. I have used it for bentgrass, nimblewill, at seeding for pre-emergent protection, and it is every pretty effective on nutsedge.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> I do have irrigation and am seeing quite a bit of runoff and puddling in some areas. I was going to do the baby shampoo aeration this morning, but the sorayer broke. Will try tonight or tomorrow.
> 
> I basically let the lawn go except for mowing and the occasional watering since May. I did not personally spray for weeds and the only application of anything by me was the 10-10-10 when I seeded.
> 
> I used a slit seeder after the grass had been mowed as low as I could go. The deck was dragging in some places.


It sounds to me like you have done a lot of things the right way.
You want to prevent that puddling as much as possible. That being said, I'm not convinced that some puddling here and there would explain lack of germination. It would need to be a widespread problem I would think.

I strongly recommend following g-man's watering recommendation. As he also notes, you could put more fertilizer down if you want.
I also suggest that you do the screwdriver test.
And keep in mind that fescue can take a while to germinate. Things could be ok with your soil. Your seed may only need a little more time.

The soil test will be helpful if your seed doesn't germinate in a week or two.

As far as tenacity, it won't do much for your seed. It will just help keep the weeds at bay. You'll need to be pretty accurate with your application rate.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks everyone.

I forgot to add that I did the screwdriver test in some random areas (one of which is the area that I'm seeing a lot of runoff) and pushing down with just my thumb, I could only get down and inch, maybe two, and it wasn't because of underground rocks, to my knowledge. And this is after the sprinklers going twice a day for almost a week and a decent rain a few days ago.

I'll add a fourth cycle to the sprinklers and go from there. I've been trying to do it just before the sun comes up, midday, and then again a couple of hours before sunset.

I figured maybe using tenacity just to get rid of my unsightly weeds.

Thanks again.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Ok, that much compaction is a problem. It could make root development more challenging for your babies. However, I don't think even that much compaction would prevent germination throughout ht entire lawn unless it does so indirectly, for example, by leading to pooling water.
You're going to need someone with more expertise to chime in to sort out that issue.
In the meantime keep watering and give those seeds more time. 
And welcome to TLF :thumbup:


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

Thanks for the welcome.

The lawn should definitely be good on water after Irma moved into the area. I have irrigation set to go 4 times per day now as well.

I put down a little baby shampoo last night. It seemed to take forever just to get a few ounces sprayed though so I didn't get much out. Seemed like the shampoo was too thick for the sprayer, but I've never used something thick like that so I have no clue.

Crossing my fingers the next couple of days show some productivity. If not, I'm contemplating aerating and broadcasting seed again. With the weather we can have here, it may not be too late. If that doesn't work, I'll do some potentially fruitless work in the spring after leveling random places during the winter.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> Crossing my fingers the next couple of days show some productivity. If not, I'm contemplating aerating and broadcasting seed again.


I think that is a good plan and was actually going to suggest that be your next step. You may want to go pretty light in your seed application, though. Provided the seeds stayed moist, it is reasonable to expect some activity from what you previously put down -- assuming, of course, that the compaction has had a significant impact on germination. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not comfortable concluding that compaction is the primary culprit.

At this point, I like poor soil 'nutrition' as the best guess. Pay attention to that soil analysis when you get the results. Aerating won't hurt anything, but you may need some soil amendments to get things rockin.'


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

After receiving a decent amount of rain yesterday and overnight, I have some germination. Some are as tall as an inch and some are just barely peeking out. 24 hours ago there was absolutely nothing. It's dark and wet/rainy so I can't check the whole yard, but hopeful that it will be happening everywhere.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

There it is.

:yahoo:


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

The old grass is really taking off with all the water and 10-10-10 but the seedlings are still just taking off. It's been 2 weeks since I seeded and 6 days since I saw germination. But I think I'm going to have to mow or I'll have a hay field. Next time I think I'll try a different fertilizer.

I reduced the irrigation by one (3 times instead of 4 per day now) and we got a hunch of rain. Hoping to mow Thursday or Friday and then again over the weekend. I have bare spots that I am thinking of seeding and spreading a little peat moss to try to get those growing before colder weather kicks in.

Sound like a decent plan?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Are you sure you seeded with Fescue rather than Kentucky Bluegrass? 



Still learnin said:


> I have bare spots that I am thinking of seeding and spreading a little peat moss to try to get those growing before colder weather kicks in.


This does sound like a good plan.



Still learnin said:


> Hoping to mow Thursday or Friday and then again over the weekend.


This is dicier. From what I understand, if you don't mow, then you risk your overgrown grass smothering your new growth--in addition to whatever embarrassment you may feel in your neighborhood. On the other hand, if you do mow, you risk hurting your new grass. 
That's a tough one. 
I would certainly advise you against mowing twice. 
Is it your entire lawn that needs to be mowed?


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

Good question...I'm pretty sure it's fescue! I wouldn't be opposed to bluegrass though.

I was also thinking shorter height would prevent the seedlings from being covered. It's getting really really high, that's why I was thinking twice, to cut off a little both times. And it's pretty much the whole yard. Maybe a couple small spots don't "have" to be mowed, but it's pretty tall everywhere.

Forgot to add that the weeds are getting crazy and I spot sprayed tenacity over the weekend. I needed to do the whole yard, but that would take forever.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Do not spray Tenacity on newly seeded grass! Read the directions.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Still learnin said:


> I was also thinking shorter height would prevent the seedlings from being covered. It's getting really really high, that's why I was thinking twice, to cut off a little both times. And it's pretty much the whole yard. Maybe a couple small spots don't "have" to be mowed, but it's pretty tall everywhere.


As far as I can tell, there is no perfect solution here. I think it is a bad idea to mow twice. If you are going to mow at all, be sure to bag the clippings.
Is the long/pre-existing grass laying over at all? You have widespread germination at this point, right? How tall are the babies now? Check your label, but I believe that 3 inches is a general rule of thumb for fescue.

If your 1) grass is not folding over and 2) your new grass isn't at least 3 inches tall, then I'm leaning towards not mowing at all.

Also, note Virginiagal's caution regarding Tenacity.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

What if the grass/weeds is/are folding over, but the seedlings aren't 3 inches tall....what is the suggestion? Ha. Some places are 12 inches tall (mainly seedheads of what I believe is crabgrass). It's almost unbearable. Just live with it??


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Purdue recommends to mow when the new seeds reaches 1.5in and keep it at 1.5in.

http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1250#p22165


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You should cut the grass. No need to bag the clippings. Just be careful with making turns, as the ground is soft from watering. I overseeded on Sept 4 after cutting everything at one inch. I cut the grass on Sept 14 at 3 inches (it had grown to about 5). I cut it on the 17th at 2 inches and will cut again tomorrow or Friday at 2 inches. For the most part I am cutting the older grass but I want to cut the new grass too. Cutting the new grass will encourage tillering. I will keep it at 2 inches for a while and raise it in October, probably to 3.


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

It's hard to see, but that's some of the "medium" height I have going on. It was too wet to take a pic of the highest areas.


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