# New TTTF cultivars and lower HOC?



## needtoknow (Oct 3, 2020)

I've seen some mentioning that the newest TTTF cultivars can be cut shorter - is this true?

I know GCI Pete cut shorter much of this year, what were the final results with that, I never heard him say...


----------



## rob13psu (May 20, 2018)

I mow my mainly TTTF lawn at 3/4". It has 4th Millennium/Traverse2/Amity as well as some KBG PRG. I love the way it looks.


































Amity's stat sheet say it can be mowed down to 5/8".

I also posted this a few weeks ago.


----------



## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

My lawn is a mix of Mountain View cultivars (Titanium LS, Avenger II, Supersonic, Firecracker SLS). The stat sheet say to mow between 2 and 3 inches. I keep it at 2.5 during the fall and bring it up to 3.5 during the summer. Looks great.

I tried mowing at 1.5 inches and it just didn't look right. That could be due to not having a perfectly level yard though.


----------



## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

rob13psu said:


> I mow my mainly TTTF lawn at 3/4". It has 4th Millennium/Traverse2/Amity as well as some KBG PRG. I love the way it looks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks awesome!

Not sure the same would work as well in Kentucky, though (where OP is)


----------



## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

rob13psu said:


> I mow my mainly TTTF lawn at 3/4". It has 4th Millennium/Traverse2/Amity as well as some KBG PRG. I love the way it looks.


 :shock: :shock: :shock:

I just spit coffee all over my iPad and let out a four letter word that starts with "D*mn!" - gettin' stern looks from the wife AND the dog! :lol:

Seriously dude; Dannnnnnng! :thumbup:


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

needtoknow said:


> I've seen some mentioning that the newest TTTF cultivars can be cut shorter - is this true?
> 
> I know GCI Pete cut shorter much of this year, what were the final results with that, I never heard him say...


Can you? Possibly. Is it a good idea, probably not. Above all else, you will definitely have to water more. I would still mow high when temps are hot.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Shorter is relative. A lot of TTTF does well at 2 inches or so if the supporting conditions and maintenance are there. Even down to 1.5 for many newer cultivars. As one of our members has shown, it's possible to go even lower, but it requires certain cultivars and maintenance for best results. Personally I'm a high mow guy, but have nothing against low mowing when it's done well.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Above all else, you will definitely have to water more. I would still mow high when temps are hot.


I haven't found any study of water use as a function of hoc. All the ET calculations don't account for hoc. I keep my northern mix front lawn at 3/4in and i don't water more or less than when I had it as 3in. I could argue that it is maybe slightly less but no hard evidence. More frequent mowing in the summer vs higher hoc does introduce more stress.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Above all else, you will definitely have to water more. I would still mow high when temps are hot.
> ...


I would certainly like to pick your brain on this. Everything I have read says that a higher HOC in hotter drier weather is less stressful for a number of reasons. From my understanding, the more turf volume you have shading the ground, the less soil evaporation you will have, not to mention that warm season weeds like crabgrass have a harder time sprouting. Now you say that total water needed isn't different, but I beg to differ that if there is less soil evaporation, there will be less supplemental water need. Maybe ET won't be much different. But it makes sense to me that the less overall foliage taken off a plant during its most stressful times, the better off it will be.

Granted that during the least stressful times of spring and fall, the difference between a 2" and 3" HOC won't make much difference in the health of the grass other than the lower cut being better for encouraging tillering. And of course the lower cut before winter is better for those regions where snow mold is an issue.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The crop evaporation (ET) takes into account the overall evaporation of water from the soil and the plant usage. It already accounts for sun/shade etc. The shade difference between 4in and 3/4in in *thick healthy* turf, is not that different. I've looked for studies that measure the actual ET at different hoc and I could not find one.

I think you will find the general recommendation that higher hoc = less water, but I dont know of any study that actually measures to see if it accurate or just another turf dogma.


----------



## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

g-man said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Above all else, you will definitely have to water more. I would still mow high when temps are hot.
> ...


Same situation for me as well. I haven't noticed I water any more frequent maintaining turf reel low or back when I mowed between 2 - 4".

I do find it bit harder to visibly notice when the turf is going into heat stress while mowing reel low. But like many of us, I transitioned to tracking ETs and referring to Rachio irrigation controller calculations and using that to determine when to water.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

zeus201 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Deadlawn said:
> ...


Well OK, I suppose under a strict maintenance plan is one thing. But for a low maintenance lawn? Then again, if someone is asking about mowing at 3/4", it's probably not a low maintenance lawn.


----------



## rob13psu (May 20, 2018)

440mag said:


> rob13psu said:
> 
> 
> > I mow my mainly TTTF lawn at 3/4". It has 4th Millennium/Traverse2/Amity as well as some KBG PRG. I love the way it looks.
> ...


Thank you, sir!


----------



## needtoknow (Oct 3, 2020)

rob13psu said:


> I mow my mainly TTTF lawn at 3/4". It has 4th Millennium/Traverse2/Amity as well as some KBG PRG. I love the way it looks.
> 
> Amity's stat sheet say it can be mowed down to 5/8".
> 
> I also posted this a few weeks ago.


This is insane! I've got 4th millenium and in places where the soil is compacted, it's not wanting to grow above an inch tall.

In those places, it looks just like a low-cut BG. I'm blown away how thick and lateral it wants to grow in those places.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

needtoknow said:


> This is insane! I've got 4th millenium and in places where the soil is compacted, it's not wanting to grow above an inch tall.


I'm not surprised much won't grow where the soil is compacted.


----------



## needtoknow (Oct 3, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> I'm nit surprised much won't grow where the soil is compacted.


I'm learning compaction is the most important thing for my soil. Watering a lot lately, plus loosener and biochar. Wondering if humic acid would really help, seeing the soil is so dead.

Do you post regular pics of your lawn? If so, would be great to see that low-cut TTTF in-season.


----------



## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

Deadlawn said:


> zeus201 said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


What do you consider low maintenance? I didn't notice any difference in my water bill going from 3.5 inches down to 5/8ths of an inch. My grass is EXTREMELY more dense and filled in at 5/8ths compared to 3.5 also. You have to really dig to even see any part of the soil. I'm guessing that has a lot to do with why my water bill is the same...I have a hard time believing that I have more soil evaporation with my low cut turf with how densely my grass covers the soil layer compared to my grass at 3.5 inches.

Here's a photo of the density. It doesn't really do it justice compared to seeing it in person. I also didn't have to do anything different to have it grow in this way other than cut more often. I added PGR later in the season, but by that time the turf was already super dense.


----------



## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

So, once a grass is thick and healthy with a reel low cut, using jrubb42's comparison of 5/8in vs 3.5in, water needs are about the same to _maintain_ it? What happens if you turn off the irrigation completely and continued mowing at 5/8in vs 3.5in? Would the 3.5in cut grass be equally stressed or equally less healthy to the 5/8in cut, especially during the summer?


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

moedank said:


> So, once a grass is thick and healthy with a reel low cut, using jrubb42's comparison of 5/8in vs 3.5in, water needs are about the same to _maintain_ it? What happens if you turn off the irrigation completely and continued mowing at 5/8in vs 3.5in? Would the 3.5in cut grass be equally stressed or equally less healthy to the 5/8in cut, especially during the summer?


Heck no. The 3.5 in. grass will shade the ground more and there will be less evaporation. The 5/8 in. grass will be stressed and with more ground exposed the ground will dry faster not to mention there will be more weed pressure.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

needtoknow said:


> I'm learning compaction is the most important thing for my soil. Watering a lot lately, plus loosener and biochar. Wondering if humic acid would really help, seeing the soil is so dead.


I would suggest topdressing with compost to build your soil structure. Compost will build your soil microbes and earthworms which will loosen your soil.



needtoknow said:


> Do you post regular pics of your lawn? If so, would be great to see that low-cut TTTF in-season.


I haven't taken any lawn pics in awhile. I never do that low a cut. I start out the season around 2 inches and bring it up gradually as the temps get warmer. Mid-summer I'm at the max height of my mower which is 4 inches.



jrubb42 said:


> What do you consider low maintenance?


I would consider low maintenance to be water when needed as in when the grass shows signs of stress. Or even let the lawn go dormant during the summer.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> moedank said:
> 
> 
> > So, once a grass is thick and healthy with a reel low cut, using jrubb42's comparison of 5/8in vs 3.5in, water needs are about the same to _maintain_ it? What happens if you turn off the irrigation completely and continued mowing at 5/8in vs 3.5in? Would the 3.5in cut grass be equally stressed or equally less healthy to the 5/8in cut, especially during the summer?
> ...


This is not accurate. Longer leaves provide more surface area for the sun/uv to hit, thus making the plant need more water. A short cut turf makes like a tight mat that prevents the sun some even getting to the soil and less weed pressure.


----------



## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

Deadlawn said:


> moedank said:
> 
> 
> > So, once a grass is thick and healthy with a reel low cut, using jrubb42's comparison of 5/8in vs 3.5in, water needs are about the same to _maintain_ it? What happens if you turn off the irrigation completely and continued mowing at 5/8in vs 3.5in? Would the 3.5in cut grass be equally stressed or equally less healthy to the 5/8in cut, especially during the summer?
> ...


I completely disagree with this, having maintained both heights of cut. Without any water both are going to show signs of stress and go into at least partial dormancy. Weed pressure has been significantly less with my shorter HOC also.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

jrubb42 said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > moedank said:
> ...


Even if you don't put down weed killers?


----------



## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

Deadlawn said:


> jrubb42 said:
> 
> 
> > Deadlawn said:
> ...


I put down prodiamine for crabgrass in both HOC's. Other than that I haven't had to use one weed killer in my short HOC. I haven't had to. I have no weeds to really kill. I had a lot of broadleaf and clover in my taller grass. I get dandelions in my short HOC every once in awhile that I pull out.

Here's my experiences with both HOC's. I lay out everything we've been talking about and more in this video.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

jrubb42 said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > jrubb42 said:
> ...


Hmmm. I just looked at your profile and see that you're in MN. What Zone are you in? I could be wrong, buy I am guessing you have shorter periods of hot dry weather than here in the CT River Valley of MA (Zone 6A). I know people in Maine who mow pretty low, but they're in Zone 3B/4A. They never irrigate or fertilize and somehow their lawn survives. Nobody around here mows that low except last mow of the season.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how grass with so little foliage area can be low maintenance. Leaves provide food for the plant through transpiration. With less foliage area to transfer nutrients, I am guessing you would need to compensate in other ways like irrigation and spoon feeding N.


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

@Deadlawn At low height of cut, almost the entire blade of grass is being used for photosynthesis and is green. If you look at 3+ inch turf, only the top half or so of the blade is green. Below that does not get any real sunlight, is light green or yellow, and is not being used for photosynthesis. That is why if you want to lower HOC, you don't want to scalp a lawn from 4 inches to 1.5 inches. If you do, it will look brown since you have cut off all the photosynthesizing tissue, and it will take a long time to recover.


----------



## tneicna (May 6, 2019)

Biologically speaking, TTTF doesn't like being cut very short during summer stress. You're adding more biological stress /to/ the cultivar. Besides, evaporation of the soil increases since it's exposed to the sun more directly. Depending on the color and type of soil, the heat capacity of the soil will increase. You'll end up cooking the plant.


----------



## occamsrzr (Apr 27, 2020)

tneicna said:


> Biologically speaking, TTTF doesn't like being cut very short during summer stress. You're adding more biological stress /to/ the cultivar. Besides, evaporation of the soil increases since it's exposed to the sun more directly. Depending on the color and type of soil, the heat capacity of the soil will increase. You'll end up cooking the plant.


There is nothing special about TTTF that suggests this. The cultivar is not the only factor in question. The Amity cultivar mentioned on the first page is rated for 5/8". A dwarf TTTF like this has been selected for its compact crown. A semi-dwarf TTTF like 4th Millennium is also rated for 1.5". Cultural practices and training the crown to stay compact right from the first cut is going to have another significant impact. I have the same TTTF cultivar grown both low cut and high cut. They look completely different. Plants can adapt.

Grass is going to be stressed during the summer regardless. The stress you suggested comes from changing the height of cut dramatically to an already stressed plant. If a TTTF stand was trained at a low height of cut, it's not going to have any more stress than a high cut lawn.


----------



## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

Deadlawn said:


> I'm still trying to wrap my head around how grass with so little foliage area can be low maintenance. Leaves provide food for the plant through transpiration. With less foliage area to transfer nutrients, I am guessing you would need to compensate in other ways like irrigation and spoon feeding N.


Depends upon one's definition of low maintenance. _Maintaining_ a reel cut lawn may be considered low or at least "lower" maintenance for a particular homeowner when compared to the learning curve, hard work and strict maintenance that initially went into _attaining_ it. The lawncare practices may simply become more routine over time, so the maintenance seems less even though its the same.

I also think what may be more true in certain hardiness zones may be _less_ true in others. Minnesota may be easier area to maintain a reel cut cool season grass compared to a southern transition zone state. Not downplaying the accomplishments of awesome lawns in that state. There are countless variables.

I believe certain grass dogmas come about from these incomplete truths. When I first joined these forums, there was and probably still is talk about fescue not having a dormancy mechanism. They said once it goes brown due to summer stress, its dead. There were even links to some studies. Where I live in Missouri, this is not true. It is hilariously not true and I plan to document it this summer. I have a whole neighborhood of non irrigated fescue lawns to choose from.

However, fescue may not recover nearly as well from summer dormancy in other areas. My grass growing experiences are limited and biased. I haven't reel cut, grown other grasses besides TTTF or maintained manicured lawns in different hardiness zones. That can be said for most of us.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

jrubb42 said:


> Here's my experiences with both HOC's. I lay out everything we've been talking about and more in this video.


I finally watched your video in full. Interesting. So maintenance wise, long cut wins hands down. Appearance is subjective. Color - it's green! I don't care about stripes. Diseases are a tie - I've never had a problem with diseases.

The one interesting point you make is weed pressure. That points to the issue of turf density. Now the most commonly accepted thought on maintaining cool season grasses is the mow low early in the season to encourage tillering thereby thickening the turf, then raise HOC as the temps warm. So if you mow high early, theoretically, you will have long thin grass with more voids. And Mother Nature hates voids, so she will try to grow something there. My arch nemesis here is crabgrass. Crabgrass seed requires heat and light in order to germinate. So I'm thinking the best cultural control against crabgrass is to keep the soil surface cool and dark.

What do I consider low maintenance? I only water if grass shows signs of stress. I only use organic fertilizers - no chemical fertilizers, pesticides, herbicides or growth regulators. And I want to be able to do minimal mowing once the hot weather comes around. I also don't want to have expensive specialized equipment like reel mowers. I just bought a Toro Rechargeable last fall and it is really a pleasure to mow with no fumes and such little noise. I am also pleasantly amazed at how powerful it is and how long the battery lasts. I can do the whole yard using about 3/4 of the charge.


----------

