# Crabgrass - Kill and seed now or wait until the spring?



## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

Hi All,
New to the forum. I've been reading for a few weeks, watching LCN videos etc, and feeling a bit overwhelmed by all the different aspects of solving my lawn problem so I thought I'd ask for your advice as I'm a teacher and running out of summer when i have some extra time.

I live in Northern NJ and my lawn is about 2000 sf. I'm not too particular about my lawn and its never been a golf course but this year it got invaded by crabgrass and other weeds. I'd say it is now 70% weeds. From what I understand, the crabgrass will die over the winter leaving a lot of bare soil which I could then seed in the the spring . The other option is to kill the crabgrass now and seed but since I have so much crabgrass, I would be killing most of my lawn. But I understand that in my climate it is better to seed in the fall. But this amounts to a total renovation which sounds a bit scary.

I'm not looking to have a perfect lawn, just one without crabgrass.

I would love to get your advice on which approach to take,

Thanks in advance


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Just got my Quinclorac today, MSO is due Wednesday. I just have crabgrass along the edge at the driveway and street but will be following this to see what you end up with. I've read as long as you give 10 days you should be ok. I'm giving 2 weeks.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@maestro welcome to TLF!

Your situation is a tough one. In fact, I've spent a long time thinking about how to resolve scenarios such as the one you present: Your lawn is overrun, but a reno is not advisable because you are still new to lawn care. I'm sorry to tell you that I don't have a good answer for you. I can, however, lay out some scenarios that may help you reach a decision.

You could rely on pre-emergents between now and next year. Pre-emergents are used to prevent weeds from establishing. They are not perfect, but they should help keep some of the weeds at bay for the next year. You should read the cool season guide on when to apply. Then, next August you could look into seeding. I honestly don't know how your lawn would look for the next year if you went this route. But, at a minimum, you would be building skills and knowledge needed for a proper renovation and you would be making at least some progress using pre-emergents (of course, the pre-emergents won't help with plants that are already established). You could also use post-emergents to take care of existing weeds, but you would have to tolerate bare areas for a while.

You could kill all the weeds with glyphosate and seed the bare areas that remain. The problem with this route is that there is a lot to learn to have the best outcome, and doing a reno is a long process, and it can take an enormous amount of careful, informed planning and time. With your small lawn, it is certainly doable, but you are getting started late, and it sounds like you would need to learn an awful lot in a short amount of time. Since you need something to come up quickly, I would recommend turf type tall fescue or perennial ryegrass. Once you have more experience, you could transition to another grass type if you wanted to do so.

A happy medium between these options would sound something like this: Curb your expectations. Take out the crabgrass and other weeds with glyphosate. Rake up as much of that dead plant material as possible. Rake your soil enough to break it up a little. Put down perennial ryegrass or turf type tall fescue. Rake some dirt over the seed. Apply Scott's starter fertilizer with mesotrione and then water for 10 minute periods several times per day if you can. Expect for it to not turn out all that well, but you can always hope.
We spend a lot of time trying to perfect each and every element in lawn care because many of us are shooting for the immaculate lawn. A quick and dirty plan, outlined in the steps above, might give you something rather than nothing. But it assumes that you will be ok using a sprayer, mixing chemicals, measuring for the proper amount of seed and fertilizer, etc. And it also assumes that you understand that things may not go well and that addressing the state of your lawn will be a long-term process (e.g. at least a year?).

If there is a better option, I don't know what it is. Hope this helps :thumbup:


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

There is another option, not better but an option. You have 2,000 sq ft riddled with crabgrass (and other weeds). All the crabgrass will die in late Fall. Get a soil test to a lab now, like today. You should get the results back within a week, maybe two at the outside. If ph is way off, you have to decide to either risk adjusting the ph while seeding, seed anyway or not seed until next year after getting ph right.

Next, if seeding is a go, buy 20 lbs quality grass seed, some starter fertilizer and a spreader. Turf type tall fescue is really easy to get growing. Mow the existing weed salad of a lawn as low as your mower will go (within reason - don't start digging dirt if your mower actually goes that low). Spread the seed and use a garden weasel or thin tined cultivator to scratch the seed into the ground - it should look like dirt mixed with seed or even seeing the seed seem to "disappear" when you're done. It's a lot of work even for 2,000 sq ft, but it's doable. Water 3x per day and keep the seedbed moist. Within about a week you should see seedlings coming up. Fertilize again in a month and again in another month. By Thanksgiving, you should have a pretty decent looking stand of grass. By then it's cold and you've done all you can. Spend the Winter learning all you can about weed control.

Apply preemergent in early Spring, prior to crabgrass germination. Aggressively eliminate existing weeds over Spring and Summer in prep for another Fall overseed. The priority is killing the weeds even if turf gets a little banged up in the Summer heat - the next Fall overseed will fix that.

Spring seeding in North Jersey might be doable but it's still a crapshoot based on weather. Shaded areas I'd say yes, but full sun areas are a "maybe" to "complete waste of time." If you kill the weeds and seed in Spring and the seeding fails in Summer heat, you will have a headache of weed control on bare ground for some long months waiting for Fall.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> Just got my Quinclorac today, MSO is due Wednesday. I just have crabgrass along the edge at the driveway and street but will be following this to see what you end up with. I've read as long as you give 10 days you should be ok. I'm giving 2 weeks.


I wish I could say I just have it along the edges. I think that was last year so I wish I would have done something then. Crabgrass seems like a cancer. If you don't cut it out now, it will spread until the entire lawn is dead which is about where I am tt. Good luck with your killing. BTW, I know about Quinchlorac but what exactly does MSO do?
Thanks


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

social port said:


> @maestro welcome to TLF!
> 
> Your situation is a tough one. In fact, I've spent a long time thinking about how to resolve scenarios such as the one you present: Your lawn is overrun, but a reno is not advisable because you are still new to lawn care. I'm sorry to tell you that I don't have a good answer for you. I can, however, lay out some scenarios that may help you reach a decision.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I am ok with quick and dirty now. It seems like lawncare can become a cool hobby and I'm ok with a long term project. I'm not crazy about using glyphosate for the environmental reasons but it seems like it is pretty standard if you want to get the job done right. Do you know of any other more organic solutions? I read about using vinegar and dish soap and actually tried it on a small patch of crabgrass and it killed it almost immediately but I also read that it may not kill the roots so you really have not killed anything. And since I also have a bunch of other weeds I guess I need to go broad spectrum. Anyway, thanks for the advice.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

maestro said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > Just got my Quinclorac today, MSO is due Wednesday. I just have crabgrass along the edge at the driveway and street but will be following this to see what you end up with. I've read as long as you give 10 days you should be ok. I'm giving 2 weeks.
> ...


I was asking the same thing just last week when I ordered it - so anybody else that helped teach me please jump in, but MSO is a surfactant that works with QC - There are different types of surfactants. Some work with others, like 2,4-D but this is the one you have to get for QC - and apparently it won't even work without it. Some have said they had luck but most say you simply have to have it to work - I don't want to take chances so I added to my ever growing collection. Honestly I need a better way to organize. If you went into my garage right now it looks like I'm a mad scientist. (Also wish I could go back now and get a backpack sprayer instead of all my 1 gallon pumps but that is another story. )

Crazy how fast it grows though - just looks nasty along the pavement, so I really hit it hard with the weed wacker weekly to keep those pretty lines down the walks/driveway.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> There is another option, not better but an option. You have 2,000 sq ft riddled with crabgrass (and other weeds). All the crabgrass will die in late Fall. Get a soil test to a lab now, like today. You should get the results back within a week, maybe two at the outside. If ph is way off, you have to decide to either risk adjusting the ph while seeding, seed anyway or not seed until next year after getting ph right.
> 
> Next, if seeding is a go, buy 20 lbs quality grass seed, some starter fertilizer and a spreader. Turf type tall fescue is really easy to get growing. Mow the existing weed salad of a lawn as low as your mower will go (within reason - don't start digging dirt if your mower actually goes that low). Spread the seed and use a garden weasel or thin tined cultivator to scratch the seed into the ground - it should look like dirt mixed with seed or even seeing the seed seem to "disappear" when you're done. It's a lot of work even for 2,000 sq ft, but it's doable. Water 3x per day and keep the seedbed moist. Within about a week you should see seedlings coming up. Fertilize again in a month and again in another month. By Thanksgiving, you should have a pretty decent looking stand of grass. By then it's cold and you've done all you can. Spend the Winter learning all you can about weed control.
> 
> ...


So Keith, you are saying I could try to grow TTTF in the midst of the (scalped) weeds? I'm guessing the crabgrass will not germinate anymore this year? I'm assuming that the TTTF will germinate and maybe even choke out the crabgrass some as I am not killing the crabgrass. I like this solution as it avoids the chemicals and might at least help me learn about how grass grows. I am also thinking about seeding another zone that is currently bare and is not a high profile area so I can learn from that too.

I will do some research in the faq section but if you have a quick link to a good soil test outfit, that would be great. Thanks alot for the advice


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

maestro said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > There is another option, not better but an option. You have 2,000 sq ft riddled with crabgrass (and other weeds). All the crabgrass will die in late Fall. Get a soil test to a lab now, like today. You should get the results back within a week, maybe two at the outside. If ph is way off, you have to decide to either risk adjusting the ph while seeding, seed anyway or not seed until next year after getting ph right.
> ...


IMO Keith has given you an excellent plan for your current situation. The crabgrass is done seeding for this year. Yes, you might get a few sprouts here and there but overall it's done. Get the fescue as thick as possible now. It will still be growing when the crabgrass is dead from frost. You will absolutely have to get a good pre-emergent down (prodiamine would be my choice) in early spring with this plan. Otherwise the crabgrass will germinate and by summer you'll be right back where you are now.

Spring seeding in your case would be an extremely bad idea. Once the springtime temps are right for fescue germination they are also ideal for crabgrass germination too. Since you are already infested with crabgrass I'll bet you have a ton of crabgrass seed already there and waiting for spring. Cut really low, do a heavy overseed, and get your pre-em down early in the spring to prevent the crabgrass from returning.


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

I am in similar position as you. My front lawn is 50% crabgrass, and my backyard is 75% crabgrass. I just moved into the house last November 2017. I did not realize how bad the crabgrass was in this area. I lived in the same town about 10 minutes away from this house, and I had no crabgrass. I live in Seymour, CT. I wanted to try to get something done for this fall, but I think I may have waited to long. I did not realize the chore it was going to be to remove the crabgrass. Originally, people stated to use quinclorac 75 df for the crabgrass. I thought this was a good idea, for taking care of a portion of my lawn this fall. I wanted to seed with KBG, and KBG takes a long time to germinate compared to TTTF or PRG. I chose KBG because it can repair itself, compared to TTTF or PRG. It is really a personal preference. I am still going through with some seeding this fall, but I plan to put KBG down on Friday. It will be a good trial. I am not expecting the best results, but we will see. I have a section of about 3000 square feet in the front yard that I am trying to renovate. This is my trial run. If I had more time, I would have applied two rounds of Roundup/glyphosate in mid-July. So after reading some posts on this site, I have learned very valuable information. Unfortunately, the timing is an issue, and I feel I am running out of time for the fall. Yesterday, I decided to use Roundup, over the quinclorac. Mainly because I want to kill everything in the area, not just the crabgrass. This will effectively kill the entire section, and I can put seed down sooner than later. On Thursday, I will be dethatching, scalping, and bagging the clippings. On Friday, I will be putting down the KBG with starter fertilizer. I want to get good seed to soil contact, but am not convinced I will remove all of the crabgrass. There are a lot of bare spots, where there is not crab grass, so I can only hope that it germinates there. Then next spring, I will apply a crabgrass pre-emergent. Then next fall, I hope that section will be in better shape. I really don't want to apply the chemicals, but I do want to prevent the crabgrass. The best way to do this is to have healthy looking grass. When we have healthy grass, it does not allow the crabgrass to take over. So, I may have to apply chemicals for a few years, but once I have healthy grass, I can go back to organic methods. I am going to create a lawn reno page sometime this week, so you are free to follow it with my progress. It is a learning experience for all of us, but I am up for the challenge. Good luck to you with your lawn too.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

@mrotatori I will be following your progress. Good luck with the renovation. I think I will wait until next year to learn about grass and seed and soil etc. before I think of this. I do like the idea of KBG and not having to seed each year. Seems like KBG is like crabgrass lol. You don't seem to need to overseed crabgrass. It does just fine on its own


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

maestro said:


> Do you know of any other more organic solutions?


I've had some luck with this stuff
https://www.lowes.com/pd/EcoLogic-1-Gallon-Weed-and-Grass-Killer/1000180273
but I don't know about its use before seeding. You would need to check the label to see how long you would need to wait before seeding.


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

@maestro funny, never thought of that but KBG is definitely like crabgrass.


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## NewLawnJon (Aug 3, 2018)

I was reading a study by Iowa State University recenty https://www.eifg.org/docs/librariesProvider7/research-synopsis/reducing-annual-bluegrass-during-fairway-conversion-to-kentucky-bluegrass.pdf?sfvrsn=2 and spraying Roundup/Glyphosate a week before reseeding, and following up with Tenacity in August has been providing good results for blue grasses.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Easiest way- Leave it, use a pre-m in the spring, get soil test (~$15), live with the bare spots all summer, hit any remaining weeds, then seed next fall
If that is not an option (or one you like) you could leave it, try seeding in the spring with tenacity, then use another pre-m about a month later to get you through the summer. This is difficult and requires a ton of diligence and work to get the new grass through summer the first year and isn't a guarantee.
I honestly feel like you should take care of this now- find a Site One, get some 75% quinclorac and Methylated Seed oil and spray the whole yard. (you might also get some quotes from landscapers for a single quinclorac application) Seed a week later then get on a normal pre-emergent schedule in the spring.

Either option 1 or 3 are the best IMO. Spring seeding sucks and it's just not worth it IMO, (after ignoring this advice and trying anyway LOL)

Edit- Read the comments above and I like the scalped crabgrass seeding approach too.


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## CPA Nerd (May 8, 2018)

I also have a lot of crabgrass. I hit it with Quinclorac a couple times and it worked pretty well. Before seeding, I am going to rake out as much of the dead crap as I can.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Soil testing in New Jersey is done by Rutgers. I think they have a pretty good turf program so I'd use them if I was there.

https://njaes.rutgers.edu/soil-testing-lab/how-to.php


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

For ripping up crab on 2,000 sq ft of lawn and covering seed with a little soil, this:

http://www.uniontools.com/products/detail.aspx?ProductId=1859&FamilyId=410&LineId=401


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Soil testing in New Jersey is done by Rutgers. I think they have a pretty good turf program so I'd use them if I was there.
> 
> https://njaes.rutgers.edu/soil-testing-lab/how-to.php


Keith,
I've decided to take your approach. I sent my soil sample today to Rutgers. I'm planning to wait until I get the results before I reseed. Does that sound right? When is the very latest I want to get the seed down? I have a garden store near me that seems to have pretty good seed. Will that be good enough or should I look for an online supplier based on what I'm trying to achieve?

Today I cut the grass as low as my mower would go. My mower seems to stall out if it's too low. But I experimented with scalping with my weed wacker and that seems to work pretty well. Then I just go over it with the mower to bag the trimmings. This also acts as a dethatcher as I am picking up a lot of thatch with the mower after hitting with the wacker.

Would you recommend core aeration prior to seeding? I love the tool you referenced. I will definitely score one of those.

Does it make any sense to hit the scalped crabgrass with some glysophate just prior to seeding?

Thanks again for all your help and if anyone else wants to chime in, I am all ears (eyes?)


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

For grass, I'm a fescue guy and buy my seeds at United Seeds. This year I bought TuffTurf II fescue / KBG blend. I will seed some time in September - have to pick a week when I'll be around and have time. In North Jersey, you might have to seed earlier. I've seeded fescue here as late as mid-October with excellent results.

You can gly the crabgrass but the dead blades will still sort of get in the way of seeding. It will soon die on its own anyway so just rip it out. For big areas I drag a dethatching rake attachment with a tractor; for small areas I have a cultivator as linked which is so old now that the tines are very sharp and it works great. A traditional dethatching rake works well too. Crabgrass has shallow roots.

I generally always core aerate prior to seeding but if you use another tool to get good soil contact, I don't think it's necessary.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

social port said:


> maestro said:
> 
> 
> > Do you know of any other more organic solutions?
> ...


Thanks for the suggestion, but I read the specs and said it's not for crabgrass. Have you used it to kill crabgrass?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm with Kieth. A couple of hours pulling crabgrass in 2k is not super bad and you get instant results. You could drop seeds the same day with the exposed soil.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

maestro said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > maestro said:
> ...


I've definitely damaged crabgrass with it, but I can't say whether or not I've attained a complete kill. I haven't tracked it closely enough to say.

But...it sounds like you have an excellent plan of attack in place already :nod:


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

g-man said:


> I'm with Kieth. A couple of hours pulling crabgrass in 2k is not super bad and you get instant results. You could drop seeds the same day with the exposed soil.


I 2nd the Hand Pull. Instant results, and no reseed waits. I'd like to point out, that while were talking about frosts, it's only August 22nd. I'm still getting sun burnt. That crab grass is going to grow, and isn't damaged enough with a scalp to slow it down for long. Plus crabgrass has shallow roots and loves a constant light watering.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

I have a lot but I will get started. 
Best tool is the 4 tine cultivator?
I found that by cutting really low you can isolate the main roots. The are not all that easy to pull but it should be a good workout.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

maestro said:


> I have a lot but I will get started.
> Best tool is the 4 tine cultivator?
> I found that by cutting really low you can isolate the main roots. The are not all that easy to pull but it should be a good workout.


I like it. You have to sort of get in your zone with the job at hand and decide which tool is best for you. What I like about the 4 tine is it scratches up the soil very well while tearing out any crab. Once it wears in and the tines get very sharp, it is a monster on trouble spots of all sorts. The only down side is it can be really easy to get too deep with it. Five minutes of use and you'll get the hang of it.

Another good tool is a standard dethatching rake, but I find that requires more effort and is slower.

Also keep in mind that perfection and completely bare dirt isn't the goal necessarily. Get enough of what's in the way to seed. No more, no less.

Oh, and it's a lot easier if you get the ground wet first.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

I agree about the dethatching rake. I get wiped after 15 minutes with it. 
I plan to break my lawn into small sections. I have a good week to pull the crabs. Do a bit each day so I don't kill myself and continue planning my seeding until I get my soil test.

So do you think I can get by with garden store seed since I already have a lot of weeds?


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

I don't have an in ground sprinkler system. Can anyone recommend a sprinkler that gives even coverage. I have decent water pressure. Any chance there is a sprinkler that can cover 2000 sf?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I have this one and really like it. It is very easy to set the width of spray as well as how far is oscillates.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Melnor-4000-sq-ft-Turbo-Oscillating-Sprinkler-with-Flow-Control-XT4200/301795860?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CD28I%7C28-10_WATERING%7CNA%7CPLA%7c71700000032163871%7c58700003829543090%7c92700030687809919&gclid=Cj0KCQjwk_TbBRDsARIsAALJSOaFIwwd_V-mu31uVsmL7WcoxmlLSInu4BJfl5VOU8pe6kk3V6Nxq5MaAsFQEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=COq078zygN0CFa64swodzHoGpg


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

maestro said:


> I agree about the dethatching rake. I get wiped after 15 minutes with it.
> I plan to break my lawn into small sections. I have a good week to pull the crabs. Do a bit each day so I don't kill myself and continue planning my seeding until I get my soil test.
> 
> So do you think I can get by with garden store seed since I already have a lot of weeds?


For seed, get the best quality you can. If you're going with "over the counter" seed, the Scott's brand is actually pretty good. Generally older cultivars but good performers in their day. Avoid anything with annual rye or Kentucky-31. That's cheap seed that will need gly somewhere down the road.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

Should I try to find pure fescue or a mixture?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

maestro said:


> Should I try to find pure fescue or a mixture?


Turf type tall fescues are really easy to grow and I think they look really good. I'd go with either a TTTF blend or a TTTF / KBG blend. KBG is harder to establish but around 10% by weight in the mix won't hurt anything if it doesn't and it's a bonus if it does.


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## maestro (Aug 2, 2018)

LawnNerd said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Kieth. A couple of hours pulling crabgrass in 2k is not super bad and you get instant results. You could drop seeds the same day with the exposed soil.
> ...


Ok, so I started the hand pull. I got a 4 tine cultivator. Now I have to confess I botched my initial lot size calc. I'm at about 4300 sf, not 2000 like I said initially. It took me about 1/2 hour to weed a test patch of about 25 sf. Assuming my efficiency will improve to double that, I'm still looking at 40 hours of weed pulling and since I can't work full time, I'm afraid that by the time I get rid of the weeds, new ones will be growing where I started. Heck of a problem.

So my question is would a power rake work? I am assuming that even if I wait until spring I'll still have to remove all the dead roots and that will not be much fun either. Or do I just need to suck it up?

Thanks in advance


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

maestro said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


At 4,300 with a lot of crab, spray quinclorac with MSO and wait a week. Power rake or slit seed. The crab will stop growing  . You don't have to remove any dead roots. More OM for your grass. :nod:


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