# Kentucky 31 vs. TTTF 2021 Covid Pricing and Availability



## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

Hi all, 
I bought a house with a 52k sq ft lawn in May. I have never had a lawn before.

I limped the lawn along through the hot summer and planned on addressing it in the fall. I decided I'd aerate, dethatch, then overseed it and apply Tenacity. If the weather stays warm enough I'd then fertilize with urea and apply a PreM sometime late November.

Well it turns out that there's a seed shortage. So if you can find it, it's double the cost of what it was last year.

A 50# bag of 3-way TTTF is running between $180 and $200 per bag. I'll need 6 bags. So $1100ish total.

I was at Tractor Supply this afternoon and they have some KY-31 that they sell for $92/bag. They have 23 bags left and they expire in November. Because of this the manager offered me as many bags as I'd like at 50% off. So about $245 all in.

Now I've just begun researching this forum, but it didn't take long for me to realize that folks put a high value on local high quality seed. They also seem to be pretty down on the KY-31; although KY-31 does seem to have some supporters.

There was no doubt in my mind that I'd take the TTTF for $85/50# over the KY-31 for $50/50#. The overall price difference being just $200. But the price difference is now about $850.

I'm not looking for a perfect lawn, and I'm not looking to renovate until after some construction and other projects happen that will remove large parts of the lawn.

Should i jump on the half off KY-31 sale, or stick with the high quality TTTF?

Any idea what kind of grass I've got now?

Any criticisms or advise about my fall plan?

Any comments are appreciated!

Here are some reference pics, I hope posting this many is ok.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

If you have large projects coming and AND your ultimate plan is to renovate the whole yard eventually, I would hold off on buying either seed and just water, fert and mow and make what you have as nice as possible. You could address the weed issues you have along the way and make the future reno a little easier.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@jha4aamu I would prefer to avoid a full renovation, I'm hoping an overseed would make it long term viable, but you may be right. I guess I could ditch the overseed and do the nitrogen blitz, tenacity, and preM instead then see how it looks come spring.

The main problem I seem to be having is a lot of compaction and thatch. I had to waaaay overwater this summer just to keep the lawn from blowing away. I'm pretty committed to power raking the whole lawn and I've already aerated a couple times. It seems like overseeding is easy enough once it's all been dethatched.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@triplefire, to be honest, looking at the photos, you might actually have KY-31 in many areas already. It's definitely Tall Fescue. If the blade width is 0.25 inch or so and larger, there is a good chance it's KY-31. I can't tell blade width from the photos.

I think you're on the right track.


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

I'm a little irritated by the dark spots in some of the pictures that look like worm castings. What are they?


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@Green I'll measure it tomorrow. Maybe post a pic.

If it is KY-31, does that completely defeat the point of overseeding with quality TTTF?


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

@2L8, those areas appear to be core aerated.

@triplefire, how are you irrigating the 52ksqft lawn? KY31 is a great economical option and is hard to beat in non routinely irrigated lawns.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@moedank its fully irrigated. There's plenty of water. Many of the green areas are overwatered to the point of being soggy in an effort to get water through the thatch. The yellow/bare areas persist in spite of getting multiple inches of water per week. If I cut the water back at all the yellow areas expand rapidly.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@2L8 - yeah, those are core aeration remnants


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Are you in new mexico? What is your typical weather like?

I would not use k31. You will regret it. Your yard looks pretty good. I would just do nitrogen and maybe seed the thin/brown areas but not all 50k.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

@triplefire, fully irrigated lawn, you've got options. Like you suggested earlier, I'd keep it simple for now and focus on your fall lawn care window. Keep reviewing the guides, check out some well chronicled cool and warm season journals and take some time to hone in on what you'd like your lawn care goals to be for next year.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@g-man

Yeah, I'm in Albuquerque. Highs usually top out in the mid 90's in July and August. Temps were higher for longer this year. High 90's since June really.

Winter is relatively mild. A couple months with lows slightly below freezing and a few snowstorms.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

g-man said:


> Are you in new mexico? What is your typical weather like?
> 
> I would not use k31. You will regret it. Your yard looks pretty good. I would just do nitrogen and maybe seed the thin/brown areas but not all 50k.


@g-man, I do agree, the lawn looks pretty good but I would consider reseeding it with KY31. Why specifically would he regret it? It already appears to has some type of medium/wide bladed fescue. I mean, it literally looks like a KY31 lawn.

Knowing that he has irrigation, and if he wanted to pursue a full renovation, KY31 wouldn't be my first choice. Personally, I would consider a warm season grass but weather in Albuquerque is unique and can support cool and warm season grasses with proper care.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@moedank - I personally considered a warm season grass - it seems like a great idea in the heat of the summer. But no one has it around here. And no one sells it. It's all park mix - kbg/prg/tf, KY-31, or TTTF.

I'm new to all of this, so I took that as a sign that warm season grass wasn't viable. Albuquerque is south, but its still a mile high and winter is definitely a thing.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

triplefire said:


> I personally considered a warm season grass - it seems like a great idea in the heat of the summer. But no one has it around here. And no one sells it. It's all park mix - kbg/prg/tf, KY-31, or TTTF.
> 
> I'm new to all of this, so I took that as a sign that warm season grass wasn't viable. Albuquerque is south, but its still a mile high and winter is definitely a thing.


I'm almost certain from the photos that you already have KY-31 or another roughly equivalent Tall Fescue. If you are ok with KY-31, there really is no need to kill the whole lawn and then seed more KY-31. All that is needed is to rehab the sections that need it. Still a ton of work on 52K, but far easier. Plus, older grass that's been there for a decade or whatever is much more established and hardy than new grass. Why not just rehab the sections that need it this year? Just dethatch where you need to, overseed any areas that need it, and if you have a really bad set of patches with invaders that can't be controlled any other way, then just kill those discreet areas and reseed with similar seed. Finally, you can do the Fall N blitz to thicken any thin areas.

This approach would be easier, as well as more ecologically sound.

You can consider renovating a subset of the lawn, such as the area with prime visibility, to TTTF at a later date, in a future year, if desired. Otherwise, the other option is to keep it all as old school Tall Fescue for the visual consistency.

Definitely keep a journal on here. Large lawns are fun to read about. No one is going to care what type of seed you pick...it's your decision, but normally you try to match what you have already. They will still read and comment on your journal if you have old school Tall Fescue.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

@triplefire, the warm season grass comment wasn't really a serious suggestion just my personal option. If I were to try something new in transition zone weather, it would probably be bermuda. I've been to Albuquerque for conferences and the weather doesn't seem that much different from where I live, although your area tends to get less yearly rainfall.


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## Carmelmatt317 (Aug 20, 2020)

Grass seed isn't up 2x from covid more like 20$ a bag, no reason to spread fake news/misinformation/lie


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

moedank said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Are you in new mexico? What is your typical weather like?
> ...


If i had poa trivialis or poa annua in my lawn, should I consider overseeding more of it? I still think he should keep it simple this year and improve what he has.


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## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

I bought a bag of KY 31 and patched bare spots over 6 years ago. KY 31 is thicker blade and grows at an angle instead of straight up. In my opinion a major mistake. I can say that once growing while unsightly is vigorous. (Lighter shade of green, thick blade and grows at a 45 degree angle to the ground). You have a large lawn area 52k but I would spend extra and get tttf . Seed genetics is very important as I have discovered reading here. Some people really hate ky31 and I am one.


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

I would look for a cheaper blended tttf. Doesnt need to be sod quality. Do you have a siteone nearby? Theres a thread on here about online options of seed and there were a few suppliers that were just over 100ish for 50# of seed. I just want to point out that you mention tenacity. It's only useful to you for seeding. If you wish to feed amd weed what you have which would improve it alot, a 3way weed killer is what you want to use. The caveat is a 30day window afterwards not being able to seed but it will really knock out your weeds. The yellowing you see amd water heavily is likely a patch of other grass type that cant handle the heat. Theres nothing wrong with attacking this in like 10k sections over time amd the results will be very nice and uniform if you really want nice grass. The fact you have irrigation amd plenty of water is a rarity amd gives you a major edge


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

dont feel like you need to get the lawn completely fixed up immediately. especially if you recently bought it.

as for K31 vs modern tttf, i would encourage you to stay away from K31. if you are interested in improving the lawn, i suspect that you will not be satisfied with the color and texture of K31. Some non-K31 varieties of fescue can also have broad blades, but still have a better, darker color. I think that is what I'm seeing in those pictures. my old lawn has some of that too.

if you're not sure what you have, vs what K31 or modern tttf would look like, consider doing a heavy overseed of both. pick two 500 or 1,000 ft sections and try both. it would be great to see a side by side comparison in your lawn journal (hint hint).

next year you can pick the option that is the best balance of cost and quality.


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

I agree that you should pass on the KY31. That fact that you are asking us this question means you are already putting in the effort to improve the lawn so why use bad seed? Even if you get it at a discount.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

I appreciate everyone's input. It's been a lot of help.

@Green - There are clearly some patches of quite thick blades in the lawn. But if 1/4" wide blades is the KY31 cutoff, then most of the lawn does not meet that criteria, so it's some mid width variety.

I can certainly just rehab the areas that need it, but that seems to be most of the lawn. The thatch is HEAVY. The soil appears to be pure clay - and is like concrete in some areas. I think I may have to roto-till those parts. Dethatching seems to be most of the work as my tow behind dethatcher is inadequate. A tow behind broadcast spreader and sprayer should make quick work of the overseeding part. Not sure if I need to cover the seeds with soil for them to germinate. That would add a lot of work.

I don't love the KY31, but if that's what I've got then it didn't bother me until I arrived at this forum - it's the yellow and bare spots I can't tolerate. It also doesn't cut very nicely. I would be inclined to overseed with KY31 in the name of consistency if I could be sure KY31 is what's there and adding TTTF isn't going to blend in.

And I'll certainly start a Journal as soon as this thread helps me put a fall plan in place!

@Carmelmatt317 - Sorry, you're right, my statement isn't coming from personal experience. I have no clue what grass seed prices were last year. I only know what the seed vendors have told me. Plus threads like this: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30912&p=424078&hilit=cheapest+seed#p424078. Regardless the price between KY31 and TTTF is significant.

@jimmythegreek - I did find Hancock's TTTF on sale this morning for $120/bag plus $250 shipping, for a total of $970, that's the best deal I've found. I've exhausted local options. One nursery has one bag left of TTTF they're selling for $145. I called the distributor to see if I could get more and was told it would be $3.20/lb, so $160, plus another $30 per bag to ship. My local SiteOne only has a park mix (prg/kbg/tf) for $168/bag, $1010 total. They cannot get any TTTF.

Online: United Seeds Super Turf 1 is $158/bag and $270 to ship. Winfield United is $1070 shipped with a coupon.

So if anyone has a lead on some cheap TTTF, I'm all ears. I will try and find the thread on cheap seed you're referring to.

I decided on Tenacity specifically because I don't have 30 days to wait for weed b gone, or whatever, to clear before seeding. *I thought Tenacity would kill existing weeds and act as a bit of a PreM, no?*

You may be right about the remaining yellow spots being another variety, but it seems to me that the soil in those areas is hard as a rock. I've core aerated 3 times, hitting those areas particularly hard. Other yellow spots greened up as a result, but not those. I think the grass is dead there.

@Thejarrod - I'm feeling the pressure because it seems like significant lawn care in a place like Albuquerque can only be done during a narrow fall window. It's way too hot to do anything all summer then snowy in the winter. I would not normally join a forum and ask a question like this, that I feel like I could answer by searching the archives. But I have too much to learn and not enough time to do it before the once-a-year lawn repair window closes. Plus I'm also excited to work on the lawn!I appreciate you all bearing with me.

A consensus does seem to be forming that I should at least try not to use KY31 and to slow down a bit and not do the overseeding. I think the lawn has had a long history of overwatering, and the thatch/dead grass is out of control. I really don't want to be putting so much water on the grass next summer. And if I'm going to spend multiple days to dethatch it all, then spending a few hours overseeding it seems like the easy part. It's just the cost really. But I've never done any of this so I may be completely wrong.

Your contention that the existing lawn may not be KY31, but a similar, yet better variety is troubling. Adding KY31 to a non KY31 lawn is the last thing I'd want to do.

I guess no one can know with certainty, but based on the pictures, *if I overseed with TTTF, do you all think it will it look well blended? If I seed the bare areas with TTTF will the contrast with the existing lawn be striking? *

If TTTF is not going to blend in with whatever I've already got, and I can't be sure I have KY31, then the whole situation gets messy and I'm at a bit of a loss. A test area may be the only way out. *sigh*

*Will overseeding and planting bare areas with TTTF slowly take over the existing lawn? *

If a few years of overseeding TTTF will make the lawn a decent looking TTTF hybrid that seems like a viable path.

*OR...maybe I should just go with the locally available Park Mix - 33% each of Rye, Bluegrass, and Fescue??*

*Am I ok to dethatch without overseeding?*

@Allan-00 - Noted! Maybe I should start a poll. Does this forum have polls?

Here are some close up pics of the blades with a ruler for reference:

I think this one is most representative of 80% of the lawn:



This area looks to be completely free of broad blades. I assume it was re-done at some point with TTTF:





There are areas where it definitively looks something like KY31 to me:





Too much water for too long has brought grubs in now I guess. And the skunks are wrecking a new section every night:





1 month old skunk damage:


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

I see some pretty decent grass in there...as well as some bunches of (possibly) KY31. I think a mix of few different varieties (but not KY31) would give you the best match with what you have existing.

Also to note that you can definitely overseed each year with high quality TTTF, but it won't take over existing grass. You would have to kill off any of these areas first.


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## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Anyone who sells K-31 should be tarred & feathered and run out to the edge of town (preferably a cliff). That dang stuff should be illegal. It is unholy…a weed from Hell…(okay, I half kid).
Seriously, if the OP has any…ANY sense of having even a mediocre lawn, he should kill the K-31 spots or kill the whole thing..,"burn it down" and start over. The ONLY place that K-31 MIGHT be acceptable is on the sides of roads…Andy then COUNTRY roads at that. Maybe not even there where it's seed might escape.

And shame on any owner that is too lazy to do a scotch of research and NOT put it down…&#129320;


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

"bad seed" and "weed from Hell" - too funny. :lol:

Sure, KY-31 forage grass is not meant for residential lawn cover, but can work in certain situations for those of us who don't have an "unlimited" :airquote: irrigation source.


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## rijkmus (Jul 12, 2021)

KY 31 in my yard. Not very pretty but it is almost indestructible. I wish I never saw those bag at tractor supply. The circle of it was done because of grub damage.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@triplefire, judging by the photos of the sections, they are indeed different. I'm indeed seeing a Tall Fescue consistent with the appearance of KY-31 in one of your later photos of the previous post. And in the section you assume was redone at some point, I'm seeing what appears to be a Blue/Rye/TTTF mix.

1/4 inch is not definitive, but is a decent starting point that I pulled from my experience with it over the last 8-9 years. TTTF can be 1/4 inch or wider, but if it's about 1/4 inch or under and is mature, it's not KY-31. Even densely seeded KY-31 probably is going to have 1/4 inch blades. A thinner stand can have even wider blades. Newer TTTF rarely gets over 1/4 inch or so, except maybe if unmowed, or if it's at edges of a lawn where it can spread out. Older TTTF can easily be 1/4-inch or slightly wider in a lawn in some cases, but is not typically going to be wider than a half inch or so, even unmowed. These are not hard and fast numbers, just ballpark.

Bottom line, you have both. And it appears to be in different areas. The lighter green is also a tip-off...KY-31 grows faster and becomes lighter green when not fertilized. Even with fertilizer, it's not usually as dark as TTTF.

I would overseed according to color. Any lighter green, wider blade areas will need KY-31 to look consistent. The other areas can use an older TTTF cultivar(s), if you can find one. Often Scotts seed has 2 older ones blended with a newer one. The Barenbrug TTTF sold under the Ace hardware brand seems a bit older, too. Not sure about the 25-lb Barenbrug bags sold through Ace...you might want to check with one or both companies to get the seed label before ordering if you're considering that seed. Also, check NTEP for color and texture numbers. I know "Sitka" is supposed to be an older variety, too, but I'm not sure if you could still find it. I bought a few lbs last year for my low input area, but have not tried it yet.

If this has the same varieties as the 3-lb bag, it would mostly be older varieties of TTTF:
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/lawn-care/grass-seeds/7003643
But you'd have to see if you could check. At the very least, you could ask if you could return it if they special order it for you if the seed analysis is not to your liking. I did this once. Also, not clear if it's uncoated or coated. I'd advise to try contacting Barenbrug, rather than Ace.

I'm not sure how that one differs from this one:
https://www.acehardware.com/departments/lawn-and-garden/lawn-care/grass-seeds/7133150


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Never-mind...Figured it out. I wasn't sure about the ruler. It's cm on top.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

There is also straight Barvado available from TSC in 50 lbs:
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/barenbrug-barvado-tall-fescue-grass-seed-50-lb-25079-1565212?cm_mmc=feed-_-GoogleShopping-_-Product-_-1565212&gclid=CjwKCAjw-sqKBhBjEiwAVaQ9a1CPRrMkGbSPCmzEPrP9L2THNzzbZVVAX4IngSSnsHk4VPvOtC967hoCBQcQAvD_BwE

Supposed to be medium blade and dark green.


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## LabRat7 (Aug 29, 2021)

Do it once and do it right. Would suck needing to do it again if you're not happy. Maybe also consider which areas are priority for you.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@Green - Thanks! That's super helpful.

The first bag at ACE is coated. The second one doesn't appear to be coated and is RTF, which sounds like a plus.

Looks like the Tractor supply TTTF is the most economical of the bunch.

I did find a local source for Titan TLC. Do you have any thoughts on that one? Seems like it might just be a newer TTTF and therefore not really match with what I've got.

https://titanfescue.com/products/tlc/product_tlc.html

Between the RTF, the Tractor TTTF, and the TLC, which would you suggest?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

triplefire said:


> @Green - Thanks! That's super helpful.
> 
> The first bag at ACE is coated. The second one doesn't appear to be coated and is RTF, which sounds like a plus.
> 
> ...


I've used a small amount of the Ace-packaged Barenbrug TTTF. It seemed like a good moderately new but not super new TTTF. I've read that the newer they get, and the darker and finer the leaves, the harder it is also to maintain brown patch resistance. Apparently, KY-31 has better brown patch resilience than most TTTF...because it outgrows the disease faster, I believe. And some older TTTF likewise has better tolerance of the disease than newer stuff.

All that said, I'd likely go for the Barvado TTTF from TSC or HD, because it's a known variety, and does not claim to be super dark green...assuming it's not coated. Coated, you're paying for coating and less seed (check the percentages on the label for a given brand.) If you can find it listed in any of the TTTF tests on NTEP.org (they have tests going back a decade or more) you could confirm the characteristics. With the blends, even by the same company, you're at the whim of whatever is put in the package that season. It might have Barvado mixed with something really new and darker green, for instance.

Sod growers still often use some of these slightly older varieties. So, don't think they are junk or something. Again, they often stand up to humidity, brown patch, and heat better than some of the more aesthetic, newer varieties. This can reduce your use of fungicides, etc. I think the main reasons for this when you encounter it are faster growth, and less density/aggressiveness, so some slightly less dense varieties don't trap moisture as much. Rooting can also be slightly compromised in more compact varieties versus standard sized ones. Try to avoid anything advertised as being "compact", "dwarf", or "fine", as well as "dense".

No experience with Titan. Again, see if the varieties in it are on any NTEP tests.

Take the exact NTEP rating numbers with a grain of salt; use them to get a feel for the overall look and disease tolerance of a variety versus the others in that cohort.


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## nameless (Aug 10, 2021)

Not a big savings but saw this gets you closer to $150


Would a KBG work, my thought is 4lb per 1k seed vs 10lb might squeak out some savings without sacrificing grass quality.


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## TimmsVA (Sep 27, 2021)

@triplefire I just had a 50lb bag of Barenbrug Barvado TTTF delivered from Home Depot, $133 for the bag and free shipping. It's only the one cultivar, not a mix. Seed tag showed 0.00% weed and 0.05% other crop. Might be an option for you.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

Thanks @Green and @TimmsVA - Ordered the Bravado from Home Depot. I'll start a journal once it arrives.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

You have a great property there man don't ruin it by cheaping out on the seeds. Hold off until seed prices come down or just spend a bit extra and get some nice seed. It will be worth it.

The alternative is that everytime you mow the lawn or step outside you'll be thinking you should've spent a little more and got the best seed whether that TTTF or kentucky bluegrass.

Do you plan to move from there? If not spend the extra money and be happy. Or just wait.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

triplefire said:


> Thanks @Green and @TimmsVA - Ordered the Bravado from Home Depot. I'll start a journal once it arrives.


Sounds like a plan. I looked on NTEP, and as expected, Barvado has great to excellent Brown Patch ratings (maybe not as important in your area as in mine, but still). In terms of overall performance, it looks very solid. Blade width medium. Canopy height on the lower side, but really not dwarf compared to something like "Summer". UConn alluded that it's not super duper dark green, but has excellent turf quality overall, with high consistency ratings. So, it sounds like what you're looking for.


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## triplefire (Sep 25, 2021)

@john5246 - I do plan to keep the property for the long term. I'm feeling quite confident about the Barvado and happy with the extra spend over the KY31.

@Green - I took a look at the NTEP as well, it seemed good to me, but didn't really understand what I was looking at. I appreciate your insight. Brown patch resistance is my biggest priority since it is hot and dry here all summer. There is only so much my infinite water supply can do.

I'm looking forward to seeing the results!


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Hancock seed online has a 50 pound bag of tall fescue blend for $120 free shipping you can call them get a better deal for large quantities


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

triplefire said:


> @green - I took a look at the NTEP as well, it seemed good to me, but didn't really understand what I was looking at. I appreciate your insight. Brown patch resistance is my biggest priority since it is hot and dry here all summer. There is only so much my infinite water supply can do.


Since it's dry there, you should have less Brown Patch pressure, even with the more frequent irrigation needed, as long as you're watering in the morning. That's not to say the pressure will be non-existent. But compared to a more humid climate, it shouldn't be as bad. That said, sometimes lack of rainfall/water exacerbates existing disease as well. I've never lived in a dry/low humidity climate (except during Winter and sometimes in Fall...it gets very dry here in Winter), though. We mostly get brown patch in Summer because it's usually fairly humid. It's worse during extremely high humidity periods.

Barvado is rated really well in Brown Patch, and good to excellent in turf quality: https://ntep.org/data/tf01/tf01_06-12f/tf01_06-12f.pdf

And the marketing summary from Barenbrug:

"Barvado tall fescue was developed by breeders and given the breeder code "EBP" meaning "Enhanced Brown Patch". It was bred from plants that survived a brown patch epidemic. Barvado combines this excellent brown patch tolerance with excellent turf quality. Barvado is a dark green variety and is highly ranked in NTEP trials. It is a semi dwarf variety and has medium leaf texture. Barvado has a high live endophyte content as well. These endophytes give Barvado improved disease and insect resistance. Barvado is highly suited for sod production, golf courses and sports fields."


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