# Sand - Topsoil Prices



## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

So just called a place to check on sand prices delivered. I was quoted $1750 for 30 yards. This would cover the front lawn bu the backyard would be 3 times that price...OUCH!!!

I think I will have to just live with the lawn as is. I dont mind picking up a truckload here and there to address a few bad areas but thats about as far as I can bring myself to go for now. Then again I just may win the Texas Lottery


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Wow Just how big is your yard?


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

You sure you need that much? I thought most people do 1 yard per 1ksqft. Is just your front yard 30ksqft?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I wonder if anyone has thought of using an aerovator and then leveling the loose soil after?


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

So I just spoke with the "SAND" place again and the price quoted for the 8K front lawn was $1750 for 30 yards which would put down 1". He says I need plan on at least an inch due to low spots. According to him this is the best way to try and level the entire yard. So again according to him some areas may need 1/4", some areas may need 1/2" and others may need 2"....

Mind you the price included delivery....


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## slomo (Jun 22, 2017)

Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.

slomo


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

8k lawn you'll need 8 yards... I would start with that let it grow in and then do another 8 yards if needed.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

slomo said:


> Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> 
> slomo


There is clay underneath the sod...


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

erdons said:


> 8k lawn you'll need 8 yards... I would start with that let it grow in and then do another 8 yards if needed.


I like your way of thinking...


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

slomo said:


> Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> 
> slomo


That's odd. @wardconnor's lawn isn't cement...


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

ctrav said:


> So just called a place to check on sand prices delivered. I was quoted $1750 for 30 yards. This would cover the front lawn bu the backyard would be 3 times that price...OUCH!!


That price is off the charts, at least compared to here in NH. I would expect a price of no more than $30/yard and less than that for such a large delivery.

Prices from my local "earth products" company (which isn't the cheapest or most expensive) is $264 for 9 yards of screened sand, delivered. (9 yards is the capacity of a typical dump truck. A tri-axle will hold nearly twice as much.)

https://www.amherstearthproducts.com/newpage1

Edit: Did a quick google search and found that Caballero Sand & Gravel in Justin, TX has sand for $30/yard delivered. I know nothing about them other than that they turned up in a google search. But that's about half the price of the $1750 for 30 yards that you were quoted.

https://caballerosandandgravel.weebly.com/ (scroll down for pricing)
https://www.facebook.com/CaballeroSandGravel/


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

So as you may have seen in my video, I bought 30 tons of sand. The folks around here weigh the product and do not sell it by the yard. They sell it by the ton. I figured that I bought and spread about 22 or so yards of sand.

I just received the bill for the sand and the all in cost for the sand delivered to my house goes like this:

14.8 tons x $14 per ton =$207.20 (first load)
14.96 tons x $14 per ton =$209.44 (second load)
Freight $105
Tax $25.83

Total for 29.76 tons of sand = $547.47

Yeah that is a lot. But I want a flat lawn. I want TOTAL LAWN DOMINATION. How else do you suggest I achieve this?

@slomo No concrete in my yard. Come see.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

N LA Hacker said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> > Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> ...


Adding sand ON TOP off a clay layer is going to give you just that, a layering issue. Core aerifying (with or without core removal) and the addition of sand is how you get concrete effect. @wardconnor just laid sand over top of his existing profile - hardly the aforementioned process of aerifying and topdressing. But, hey, don't take me word for it...look into the scholarly material.

E: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2989&hilit=concrete


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> N LA Hacker said:
> 
> 
> > slomo said:
> ...


I did core aerate before I top dressed with sand. I then proceeded to drag the sand into the holes from the aerator.

Still no concrete. In 2016 I did the same thing. Core aerated and top dressed with sand. No concrete. Its a myth.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

wardconnor said:


> viva_oldtrafford said:
> 
> 
> > N LA Hacker said:
> ...


And you've had a textural analysis done to know that your profile is, at minimum, 40% clay? There are 5-6 links from government agencies / universities which mention the impact of mixing sand and clay. So you can say it's a myth, but your youtube pursuits and weekend hobbies don't count as scientific work.

https://civiltoday.com/civil-engineering-materials/brick/132-brick-composition-ingredients-with-functions


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Gosh that's a lot of $$$ for sand. I just bought 130 tons of turf sand (sieved to ensure particle size uniformity) and paid $2,200. Guess being in FL has its perks!


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

Back in the day, here in the south, some rural roads were built using what was known as "chert". The name is sort of a misnomer as chert is a specific kind of silica rock. But chert roads were a mixture fine gravel with a high clay content soil and packed so that the surface became like concrete. I know that when I was a kid, there was some natural chert on our property. A pick would bounce off of it. It could be loosened up when it was really wet, I would suspect that the same effect could be created with sand -- with at least 40% clay. But I would think that the sand and clay would need to be mixed together rather than layered as occurs with our leveling activities. Additionally I don't think we use enough sand to be a problem. I know that in my lawn there are some places with several inches on top of a clay loam. As I have never had it tested, I don't know what the clay content is. But I have never had any problem with it.


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

The physical soil properties in ctrav's area range as follows:
0-7 inches:
Sand: 5-33%
Silt: 20-40%
Clay: 40-60%

Let's all take a deep breath here, his soil isn't turning to cement by top dressing with sand. There is too much silt in the soil structure to allow the clay particles to fill in the pore space of the sand and completely take over.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> ...your youtube pursuits and weekend hobbies don't count as scientific work.


Discussions are about issues, not people. If you disagree with an idea, go ahead and marshal all your forces against it, but please do not confuse ideas with the person posting them. His work speaks for itself - I can confidently say I have not seen anything a "pro" has posted here at TLF that looks any better.


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## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

N LA Hacker said:


> Let's all take a deep breath here, his soil isn't turning to cement by top dressing with sand.


+1


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

slomo said:


> Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> 
> slomo


You're joking, right?


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> > Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> ...


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Well I certainly appreciate all the comments on this. I see pros and cons on the issue but the bottom line is that you are all helping me to learn and I appreciate you!


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> > Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> ...


Layering? No real issue. Mixing the two? Yes, that is a possibility. Don't fall for the anecdotal stories you see around here - some fly in the face of accepeted science.

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments-2.pdf

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/what_to_do_about_compacted_soil

http://extension.colostate.edu/docs/pubs/garden/07235.pdf

https://durham.ces.ncsu.edu/files/library/32/UNH%203.PDF

https://depts.washington.edu/hortlib/resources/wp-resource_search.php?term=478

http://www.uvm.edu/pss/ppp/articles/clay.html

http://extension.colostate.edu/topic-areas/yard-garden/choosing-a-soil-amendment/


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## Thor865 (Mar 26, 2018)

ctrav said:


> Well I certainly appreciate all the comments on this. I see pros and cons on the issue but the bottom line is that you are all helping me to learn and I appreciate you!


You'll be good man. Just throw that sand down. But get another price quote. And if needing to bring areas up over an inch and you want it done in one go don't put sand in that area. Just use topsoil or topsoil/sand mix.

General rule is 1 yard/1k sqft. And it takes many times depending on severity of dips and what you want the finished product to be.

Check out the leveling thread and you'll see comparable pricing and also check out the hometown page and ask what prices and where others around you have gotten it.

Good luck!


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Thor865 said:


> ctrav said:
> 
> 
> > Well I certainly appreciate all the comments on this. I see pros and cons on the issue but the bottom line is that you are all helping me to learn and I appreciate you!
> ...


Thanks @Thor865


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

That's incredibly high! I just ordered 130 tons of a sieved sand and paid $2,200 - delivery included. I'd call a local golf course and see who they use for sand, they surely have someone that can get you a much better price.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

I think the confusion lies in the type of application. Topdressing and levelling amends the soil, but it doesn't serve as a soil amendment. It is a cultural practice used to facilitate drainage, reduce OM, and inprove airflow.

Amending soil would require tillage to distribute the amending material throughout the entirety of the profile.

Aerating/tining at a depth of 4" and backfilling with sand doesn't introduce enough volume of large aggregate to cause the formation of bricks. Rather, the increased airflow and water percolation would lead to a quick increase in rootmass and ultimately a flush of self generated organic matter production. Again, because it's not tilled into the soil, rather distributed in pattern with ample spacing and maybe a small layer.


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## Gibby (Apr 3, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > slomo said:
> ...


From your first link...

*Bottom line: *

• Clay soils are not inherently bad, but can be problematic if they lack good structure. 
• To significantly alter a clay soil, sand must be incorporated to about 50% of the total soil volume. 
• Many problems associated with clay soils (poor aeration, drainage, etc.) can be alleviated through 
good management practices. 
For more information, please visit Dr. Chalker-Scott's web page at http://www.theinformedgardener.com.

From your 4th link

Any mixture less than 70% sand in 30% clay actually packs more densely that straight clay.

From your 6th link

If your soil dries like a brick with cracks when it's dry, or in clods, and is like putty when wet sticking to shoes and tools, you have clay soil.

While I agree in the correct conditions sand + clay could make a concrete like substance. I think a lot of people that say they have a clay soil, do not have as much clay as those references say are required to create concrete like soil when adding sand.

There are plenty of golf courses with clay like soil, and they all top dress with sand.

Best way to know for sure is to get a soil test.


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

Web soil survey gives you the physical properties of the parent soil.


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

Would you mind sharing the vendor and specific sand you were quoted on? Just curious as there are several suppliers of high-quality topdressing/rootzone sands in the DFW Metroplex.

On the issue of "concrete":

Topdressing or "capping" a native soil with sand is a practice that's been around for nearly 100 years here in the US. The vast majority of golf course putting greens built prior to the 1960's are/were native soil greens at construction. From there golf course superintendents have continually topdressed sand directly over the native soil to build up a "cap". See this photo below from Traverse City Golf and Country Club where 22 years of sand topdressing sits atop the native soil from greens construction.



What about doing it all at once you say? Well, a few smart people at Michigan State wondered about that too, specifically on sports fields. What they came up with is a process now known as the Spartan Sand Cap. Please see link below for more description.

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/uploads/236/68678/Sand-Cap-Athletic-Fields.pdf

http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/Conference/2012_Conference/Kowalewski_Presentation.pdf

The main issue with capping is you have to commit to keeping the interface between your two layers open. What I mean by that is through mechanical aeration, there must be vertical channels to allow water and roots to move down, as well as air up and down. This could be accomplished with solid tines or hollow tines. Backfilling the channels with sand would be ideal but, is not completely necessary. In either case, choosing a sand with the proper fractions (see size) and angularity (see shape) is very important for long-term success.

With respect to "amending" a clay soil with sand, yes this is where you can get into trouble. As @thegrassfactor alluded to, amendments constitute tilling in or otherwise mechanically combining an amendment material, sand in this case, with the existing soil at a depth of 4-8", typically. Where things can go awry is if too little sand is used to amend and you end up with particle sizing in the soil that is <85% sand. Moreover, the properties of the sand itself, as mentioned above with the capping method, are crucial to the performance of the amended soil.

In either case, I would want to see the sand specs from the vendor on the material you are buying, have a particle size analysis on your existing soil (sand, silt, clay), and then make the best choice on how to move forward.

TL;DR - It's OK to put high-quality, properly sized sand on top of your native soil lawn for leveling/topdressing. If you get a tiller involved, check yourself before you wreck yourself.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

osuturfman said:


> Would you mind sharing the vendor and specific sand you were quoted on? Just curious as there are several suppliers of high-quality topdressing/rootzone sands in the DFW Metroplex.
> 
> On the issue of "concrete":
> 
> ...


Thanks fo the very detailed response. I would be more than happy to share via PM...


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> So as you may have seen in my video, I bought 30 tons of sand. The folks around here weigh the product and do not sell it by the yard. They sell it by the ton. I figured that I bought and spread about 22 or so yards of sand.
> 
> I just received the bill for the sand and the all in cost for the sand delivered to my house goes like this:
> 
> ...


That's not alot at all compared to other places. I didnt even level this year due to sand prices spiking up.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Stro3579 said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > So as you may have seen in my video, I bought 30 tons of sand. The folks around here weigh the product and do not sell it by the yard. They sell it by the ton. I figured that I bought and spread about 22 or so yards of sand.
> ...


Yes I watched your video...thanks for doing that! The price you posted is not bad at all compared to my first quote. I have called a couple more places and the best price I get is $22 per yard so the front will cost me about $350 delivered for 8 yards. This would be the first application of sand and from what Im reading it will take multiple applications. Maybe dominating is not in my future


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

I have 8.5k sq ft in my front yard and I put down only 8 yards once. Didnt do anything. I then said screw and got 25 tons. That got the job done. I still can use another 20 tons or so this year to do some more leveling.

My opinion is get the truck load (25tons) better to have more then less.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Stro3579 said:


> I have 8.5k sq ft in my front yard and I put down only 8 yards once. Didnt do anything. I then said screw and got 25 tons. That got the job done. I still can use another 20 tons or so this year to do some more leveling.
> 
> My opinion is get the truck load (25tons) better to have more then less.


Oh yea, when I did the 8yards of sand it was masonry sand. I didnt like it because it was coarse and took a while for grass to break through it. When I got the truck load it was river sand. Like what connerward has in his video. My grass broke through in like 2 days or so. Also easier to work with.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Stro3579 said:


> I have 8.5k sq ft in my front yard and I put down only 8 yards once. Didnt do anything. I then said screw and got 25 tons. That got the job done. I still can use another 20 tons or so this year to do some more leveling.
> 
> My opinion is get the truck load (25tons) better to have more then less.


Oh my that would cost me about $700 (provided I can get a decent price) for the first delivery alone and thats just the front lawn. If I want to do the backyard as well now we are talking about $2100 for fist load. So 3K for front and back times two applications 6K???

Im starting to think I can live with my lawn as is and just go with a higher HOC to hide the imperfections. Which may not be a bad idea to have my Bermuda at 2 1/2 to 3" max instead of trying to maintain at 2. I have no plan to but a "REEL" mower which is what would probably be needed to have that total "DOMINATION" look to attempt to unseat Mr. Ware for LOM


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

ctrav said:


> Stro3579 said:
> 
> 
> > I have 8.5k sq ft in my front yard and I put down only 8 yards once. Didnt do anything. I then said screw and got 25 tons. That got the job done. I still can use another 20 tons or so this year to do some more leveling.
> ...


$700 is what I was quoted this year for a truck load of sand. I paid $500 last year. This is why I didnt level this year. Also, I just did my front yard. My backyard is a little over 13k sq ft. Didnt see myself reel mowing that. Lol. I get enough exercise doing my front yard. Good luck with whatever option you go with. I know for sure either way someone here can help.


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## Rockinar (Jul 21, 2017)

erdons said:


> 8k lawn you'll need 8 yards... I would start with that let it grow in and then do another 8 yards if needed.


THIS

I bought 6 yards for 5K feet and it was a tad much. 1 yard per 1K is a good starting point.

......and NO it will not turn into cement. LOL.

But you do need to go to the sand place and look at what you are buying. make sure its not full of rocks or large pebbles.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Rockinar said:


> erdons said:
> 
> 
> > 8k lawn you'll need 8 yards... I would start with that let it grow in and then do another 8 yards if needed.
> ...


For all we know the lawn might be fairly flat already, it's going to be hard to find a place for the sand to hide and might be left with a mountain of sand in his front yard, of course pics would be very helpful to determine to what extent he needs to level.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

erdons said:


> Rockinar said:
> 
> 
> > erdons said:
> ...


With this backyard there will be no leftovers


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## crzipilot (Jul 4, 2018)

No offense, and maybe I'm missing something, but which picture is your back yard? I really don't see 30k sq ft of grass there. I've got about 12k and I think from my pictures I have a little larger yard. Who or how did you determine you had 30,000 sq ft? I'm sitting on a 1.5 acre lot, with a house foot print that is 80x90


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

crzipilot said:


> No offense, and maybe I'm missing something, but which picture is your back yard? I really don't see 30k sq ft of grass there. I've got about 12k and I think from my pictures I have a little larger yard. Who or how did you determine you had 30,000 sq ft? I'm sitting on a 1.5 acre lot, with a house foot print that is 80x90


I also have to say that the yard looks fairly smooth. One yard per M should be a good start and may be enough.


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

That's just his front yard.


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## Stro3579 (Jun 30, 2017)

Looks like the pictures he posted is just his front yard.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Spammage said:


> crzipilot said:
> 
> 
> > No offense, and maybe I'm missing something, but which picture is your back yard? I really don't see 30k sq ft of grass there. I've got about 12k and I think from my pictures I have a little larger yard. Who or how did you determine you had 30,000 sq ft? I'm sitting on a 1.5 acre lot, with a house foot print that is 80x90
> ...


This was just part of the front yard...


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Holy square footage Batman. My neighborhood would almost fit in you and your neighbors lawns.


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## crzipilot (Jul 4, 2018)

That puts a little better perspective on it. HAHA. What size is your lot? 1 acre

I would probably not worry too much about the full back yard, but level the front and maybe just around the pool. Maybe 20' off the back of the pool? Then it looks like you might be able to get some free sand next door if your willing to screen it yourself. HAHA


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

crzipilot said:


> That puts a little better perspective on it. HAHA. What size is your lot? 1 acre
> 
> I would probably not worry too much about the full back yard, but level the front and maybe just around the pool. Maybe 20' off the back of the pool? Then it looks like you might be able to get some free sand next door if your willing to screen it yourself. HAHA


Its just under 1.25 acres.

The issue with the back is the sod was laid running north-south and has these "ruts" so when I cut from east-west its a horrible bumpy ride.

The empty lot next to me is no longer empty. They are building now and will probably finish by year end.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Wow! Beautiful home! What is that? 8M?


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Wow! Beautiful home! What is that? 8M?


Thank you...this is the first time we have lived in an area with a little space between the neighbors so its nice but lots of work


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

Looks about a 3.8M to me.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

N LA Hacker said:


> Looks about a 3.8M to me.


Looks to me like a larger home than 3.8K sq ft. I was thinking 8.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

N LA Hacker said:


> Looks about a 3.8M to me.


Nope its just a tad under 3800 sq ft. Single story with a huge room up...


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

Scale of vehicle to home. This is one I just finished. It's the only reason I'm guessing that size.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

N LA Hacker said:


> Scale of vehicle to home. This is one I just finished. It's the only reason I'm guessing that size.


How many acres is that sitting on? Congrats on the build...


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## N LA Hacker (Aug 17, 2018)

I've got just a hair over 3 acres. Thanks.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

thegrassfactor said:


> I think the confusion lies in the type of application. Topdressing and levelling amends the soil, but it doesn't serve as a soil amendment. It is a cultural practice used to facilitate drainage, reduce OM, and inprove airflow.
> 
> Amending soil would require tillage to distribute the amending material throughout the entirety of the profile.
> 
> Aerating/tining at a depth of 4" and backfilling with sand doesn't introduce enough volume of large aggregate to cause the formation of bricks. Rather, the increased airflow and water percolation would lead to a quick increase in rootmass and ultimately a flush of self generated organic matter production. Again, because it's not tilled into the soil, rather distributed in pattern with ample spacing and maybe a small layer.


So based off what @thegrassfactor is saying someone with clay soil SHOULD AERATE and top dress with sand and it will help the soil and lawn. Just DO NOT mix the two. Is that correct? I have a backyard that is very heavy in clay soil.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

ENC_Lawn said:


> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> > I think the confusion lies in the type of application. Topdressing and levelling amends the soil, but it doesn't serve as a soil amendment. It is a cultural practice used to facilitate drainage, reduce OM, and inprove airflow.
> ...


That's the consensus in this thread as well.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

The arguments about how to make bricks without straw are always interesting and I've gotten sucked into them myself a time or two. From where I sit I've yet to see anyone who sand top dresses actually make concrete but I've seen lots of guys make amazing lawns. Just a thought.

For the actual question the guy asked, as another data point I pay about $40 a yard delivered for quality washed mason sand. I buy less than 10 yards at a time so take that into account re price. Larger quantities should cost less. My supplier is great to deal with, has a consistent product, delivers next day on a phone call, and I have no motivation to shop around.


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## MarkV (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm paying $165 for 4.5 tons of mason sand.

I'm scared to put a dump truck on the drive way so I found a guy with a dump trailer.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

slomo said:


> Hope the sand isn't being spread on top of hard clay. That is a recipe for cement.
> 
> slomo


No it's not. It's a myth!


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