# Reno seed-down date?



## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

I had originally targeted the week of/after Labor Day for my seed-down date for my reno this year, but now I'm having second thoughts. (Let's say September 10th to be specific) Is this a good idea? Way too late? Do-able but risky?

The extra day off work for the holiday will help a lot to get everything finalized, and this summer has been a little hotter than normal. I'm located outside Philly, on the southern edge of the cool-season zone.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

You can definitely go earlier if possible but being where you live you should still be ok that time. Are you planing TTTF?


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> You can definitely go earlier if possible but being where you live you should still be ok that time. Are you planing TTTF?


Thank you - I'm at the point where I need to make definite decisions and I'm second-guessing everything! I've purchased my seed (and updated my profile) - going all TTTF: 4th Millennium, Rowdy, and Titanum.


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

Uptate: I found the average first frost dates for my zip code and they look... early. There's a 50% chance of seeing 32F on October 15, which would only give me 35 days of germ+growth. Am I reading this correctly?


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

pseudodennis said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> > You can definitely go earlier if possible but being where you live you should still be ok that time. Are you planing TTTF?
> ...


If it was KBG I'd say your pushing it a bit but I think you'll be fine with fescue.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

pseudodennis said:


> Uptate: I found the average first frost dates for my zip code and they look... early. There's a 50% chance of seeing 32F on October 15, which would only give me 35 days of germ+growth. Am I reading this correctly?


That seems early for your area. I just did a quick google search and it say avg first frost is November 17th for Philadelphia.


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> That seems early for your area. I just did a quick google search and it say avg first frost is November 17th for Philadelphia.


Ok, yes that seems much more on target with what I was expecting.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I'm no astronomical expert but the moon in the mitten is further south. The sunset is receeding and the air smells slightly different like fall is moving in coupled with lower nighttime temps.
Lower overall temps match my empirical evidence. Also last year, the bottom fell out at the end of September and it got way too cold way too fast.

I have a small room size section i need to seed. 
Was planning on first week of august.


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Thick n Dense, going off of the first frost date (Oct 16th), I am a half hour north east of you and I was planning on last week of August or first week of September to reno the front yard. Back yard would be a week or two after.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

For Michigan, i would say the first week of August with a KBG Reno. Give yourself time for issues. A downpour that destroys your lawn can make you 2-3 weeks late. Even getting a cold/flu can delay the best plans. With TTTF maybe a week later than a KBG Reno.

For Philly, i won't go past 01sep for a reno with KBG.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

My seed down target date is Aug 15th, GCI TTTF, if that helps... I am reno'ing ~350sf.

I have a lot of work to do to hit that date though.


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

ColeLawn said:


> My seed down target date is Aug 15th, GCI TTTF, if that helps...


Where are you located? (Not sure if 6b is USDA or hardiness...)


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

g-man said:


> For Philly, i won't go past 01sep for a reno with KBG.


That puts me at the far end of the range for Sept 10th TTTF. (Alas Labor Day is later this year.)

@Thick n Dense There is a high probability that this Fall will be warmer than average, at least based on NOAA outlooks: https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/long_range/poe_index.php?lead=1&var=t


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

pseudodennis said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > For Philly, i won't go past 01sep for a reno with KBG.
> ...


FWIW, most people that do a reno wish they had their seed down sooner.

Also, don't count on forecasts ever being accurate.

If you're putting in the time and money to do this, give yourself the best possible chance for success so you're not doing the same thing a year later.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

pseudodennis said:


> Where are you located? (Not sure if 6b is USDA or hardiness...)


Western NY.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

I'm in MA and am pushing my previously-planned Labor Day reno back 2 weeks. The heat intensity lasts through September and the cold really doesn't come in until November, barring last year's freak Halloween snowstorm. And since we don't really have a "fall" anymore, I think we'll still have 6-10 weeks of grass-growing weather.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

thin_concrete said:


> I'm in MA and am pushing my previously-planned Labor Day reno back 2 weeks. The heat intensity lasts through September and the cold really doesn't come in until November, barring last year's freak Halloween snowstorm. And since we don't really have a "fall" anymore, I think we'll still have 6-10 weeks of grass-growing weather.


I agree. 2 seasons ago, I did a partial Reno and overseed. I had a couple set backs and since it was my first time, I wasn't expecting the amount of work it took (26k sq ft) . So always give yourself some extra time for any unexpected delays. Long story short, I wasn't officially done yet until 9/8. I wish I had started earlier that year, so last year I overseeded by 8/22, with much better results and extra time in case I needed to put down additional feed on thin spots.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Can we all agree that the weather is F'd up and everything is changing ? 
Even the hue of light from the sun is affecting the color of the grass and other green plants. 
Part if the reason why we had dandelions in march here in the mitten. Theres much more red/redish/orange tones coming out.

I think that the earth is wobbling around on it's tilt more acitively making the season changes more pronounced than a slow transition.

Last year a light switch went off and went from summer directly into Novemberish type weather.

Like even my kbg provista... it didnt go dormant BUT No one elses grass went dormant either. Everyone in my towns lawn survived the summer even my neighbors crappy fine fescue nightmare. 
This is cause the 4-5 day high to low swing in temps and the consistent rainfall which never happens here.

If anyone can pick up on this its this group of folks.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

@Jeff_MI84 
PM me I can hook you up with a SSS midnight nuglade, bewitched, evergreen blend. 
Youre local and I have no ther use for it 😆


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## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

@Thick n Dense I really appreciate it, but have so much fescue seed. In the future I might want to add more or do a KBG monostand (Everest maybe?) in my backyard.

Speaking of f'ed up weather, all we get here lately are heavy thunder storms.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> Even the hue of light from the sun is affecting the color of the grass and other green plants.
> Part if the reason why we had dandelions in march here in the mitten. Theres much more red/redish/orange tones


That's from wildfire smoke, even if the fires are not nearby. Last week, we had a day that was supposed to be 88-89F and sunny according to the forecast the night before. It ended up being 84-85 and hazy, with orange sunlight, due to a fire in Canada. It was so bad, you could see the affect of the smoke in the air.


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

thin_concrete said:


> I'm in MA and am pushing my previously-planned Labor Day reno back 2 weeks. The heat intensity lasts through September and the cold really doesn't come in until November, barring last year's freak Halloween snowstorm. And since we don't really have a "fall" anymore, I think we'll still have 6-10 weeks of grass-growing weather.


I am not sure what part of Mass your from, but it's not just about temp. It's about the duration of the sun, which gets less and less as you get to August. Also don't forget the leaves dropping, messing things up.

I agree that are September's are getting hotter and hotter, but the key to a mid August Reno date, is that it gives you time to get some fertilizer down between Mid September and Mid October. If your dropping PR. You would get even more time to get some kind of pre-m down in September to keep the poa-a away.

Even if things are getting warmer, to me it makes a mid August drop even more attractive, because you have a longer time to get the lawn established.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

NELawn said:


> thin_concrete said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in MA and am pushing my previously-planned Labor Day reno back 2 weeks. The heat intensity lasts through September and the cold really doesn't come in until November, barring last year's freak Halloween snowstorm. And since we don't really have a "fall" anymore, I think we'll still have 6-10 weeks of grass-growing weather.
> ...


Good points. I will keep them in mind as we head into August next week. I'm in MetroWest.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Also, remember that the real reason Spring seeding is bad is the sustained heat and weed pressure. Then you can run into fungus and disease watering baby grass trying to keep it hydrated.

Even if september is hot, it will drop off quickly and the heat wont be sustained.
and there essiently wont be weeds from reno destroyers like crabgrass.

The fear is that if the season change comes early the temps arent ripe for germination.

Its not that heat is the bane of baby grass but really that the survival through summer due to heat and weeds is very low knowing that fall is on up next means that you shouldnt be concerned of heat like you would in spring.

Basically the way I look at is that you want to time it so the weather is in the 80s during germination. 2-3 weeks later it should be to the 70s for sprout and pout.

For the record, I do not agree that septembers are getting warmer, at least in the mitten.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

NELawn said:


> thin_concrete said:
> 
> 
> > I'm in MA and am pushing my previously-planned Labor Day reno back 2 weeks. The heat intensity lasts through September and the cold really doesn't come in until November, barring last year's freak Halloween snowstorm. And since we don't really have a "fall" anymore, I think we'll still have 6-10 weeks of grass-growing weather.
> ...


It's also the angle of the sun after labor day I notice the shade from my house gets bigger and lasts a lot longer harder to get seed to germinate there


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

In some cases, its better to seed the North side of a house in the spring, because the angle of the sun. Not to mention you get more sun if your in partial shade because there aren't any leaves on the trees. But you still have the other spring seeding issues.

I have defiantly felt that Fall has gotten warmer last few years. It might just be because I am sick of August and looking forward to cooler nights, but I swear we can be into the 90's until late September last few years. Then again a big storm can come up the coast and give us 5 days of below average weather, its just that there is a lot of warm weather still around after labor day.

But as has been mentioned, the key is those hot days are shorter than the days in the middle of the summer.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

With all this rain and humidity we are getting all summer, I sure hope if we get any more of it, it shows up when it suppose to!


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## SnootchieBootchies (Mar 23, 2021)

pseudodennis said:


> I had originally targeted the week of/after Labor Day for my seed-down date for my reno this year, but now I'm having second thoughts. (Let's say September 10th to be specific) Is this a good idea? Way too late? Do-able but risky?
> 
> The extra day off work for the holiday will help a lot to get everything finalized, and this summer has been a little hotter than normal. I'm located outside Philly, on the southern edge of the cool-season zone.


If you start seeing low night time temps, just run your sprinklers 1-2x for a few minutes and you wont get frost.


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## pseudodennis (Apr 19, 2021)

SnootchieBootchies said:


> If you start seeing low night time temps, just run your sprinklers 1-2x for a few minutes and you wont get frost.


I think that makes sense but seems counterintuitive. So the idea is for the relatively warmer tap water to raise the turf temp? Or just melt the ice crystals as they start to form?


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Water is good at insulating and holding heat.

Temp of water + water on grass insulating doesn't give enough to cause frost.

I think it's risky though in sense that if it does get really cold, the ice could cause much worse damage.

This principle is better applied in spring for green up. Wet soil maintains heat better. If you have a dry spring then water to help heat soil. 
Doesn't need it but will speed up green up.

Think of the oceans and how warm the water is after sunset and cooler temps roll in.

Earth actually wouldn't maintain such a consistent night time temp if it weren't for water storing sun heat during day. 
Case In point deserts. 120* during day 20* at night. All due to lack of moisture.

From an insulation standpoint, all water forms bonds with other water molecules. The more of them are the more resistance it has to change. 
Case in point: ice cubes , bigger cubes take longer to freeze cause more water molecules.

Due to earths tilt and these principles, there's actually very little ice and glaciers comparitive to air temperatures. Another consideration is the oceanic current flows that pulls warmer water to the poles.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

Keep a eye on future weather forecast. I remember a few years ago I was planning on a tttf labor day over seed it was a washout weekend and so was the next weekend set me back a little


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## SnootchieBootchies (Mar 23, 2021)

pseudodennis said:


> SnootchieBootchies said:
> 
> 
> > If you start seeing low night time temps, just run your sprinklers 1-2x for a few minutes and you wont get frost.
> ...


Water from the ground is static 55 degrees. In the fall, the temps just dip briefly low enough to create frost and it only lasts a short while. The grass blade blade temp steps down over time so when you hit them with 55 degree water, you start that step down all over again and its likely to last hours when temps start rising again out of frost zone. I would just look at the hourly forecast and whatever time 37 degrees was going to happen, I did a 5-10 minute water. No frost, happy KBG sprouts. Old gardeners trick that really works.


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## Samael (Jul 25, 2021)

Thick n Dense said:


> @Jeff_MI84
> PM me I can hook you up with a SSS midnight nuglade, bewitched, evergreen blend.
> Youre local and I have no ther use for it 😆


Hey @Thick n Dense,

I tried to PM but if you still have this seed, I might be interested in picking it up. PM or reply if you want to coordinate.


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