# "Accidentally" overseeded Tall Fescue with Bermuda



## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Hi to all at the lawn forum,

I have 4 small lawns with Tall Fescue in Southern California. Partly irrigated with sprinklers, partly with drip irrigation.
As I thought I had Bermuda grass, I overseeded 3 weeks ago with Bermuda.
What to do in order to prevent the Bermuda from getting invasive?


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## BobLovesGrass (Jun 13, 2020)

Someone will have much better guidance than I but I think first thing I would do is shut off the water, in hopes of letting seedlings die.

I don't think this is a solution though just delaying the inevitable.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Tenacity might knock it back.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

Ornamec.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Damn that sucks, might just be time to transition your lawn to Bermuda


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

Would be helpful to see some pics of the existing grass. Bermuda and fescue are not commonly mistaken for each other but before doing anything drastic it would be nice to really be 125% sure of what you have.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thejarrod said:


> Would be helpful to see some pics of the existing grass. Bermuda and fescue are not commonly mistaken for each other but before doing anything drastic it would be nice to really be 125% sure of what you have.


second photo is always close-up

Backyard 1: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/e5c931m7v278mad/20200810_180505.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xrx7k0a8vwpzmdy/20200810_180512.jpg?dl=0

Backyard 2:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/d60mj3yvfm5oyq6/20200810_180535.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/b5rh4z5yu7nhxa2/20200810_180541.jpg?dl=0

Front 1:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/y8hby1lxfte5k6f/20200810_180630.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/8786eiy3uz2qw3i/20200810_180638.jpg?dl=0

Front 2:
﻿https://www.dropbox.com/s/86y61ipswtssafj/20200810_180655.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ggxqq91yvjvq81s/20200810_180705.jpg?dl=0

Front 3:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/675txg4wgg6w523/20200810_180719.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/a51ht5efke9yqoq/20200810_180730.jpg?dl=0


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

Those close up pics sure do look like fescue. 
I was hoping you actually did have Bermuda, but I don't think that is the case. 
A Bermuda / fescue mix doesn't work very well. 
Ornamec is expensive, but looks promising to kill the young Bermuda. Would also consider putting down prodiamine or another pre emergent to cut off germination now.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thank you.
I googled for Ornamec and there are several versions of the product - which is the right one?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Pre-emergents might work to prevent the seed from germinating. If it looks like you have bermudagrss in the Spring, see this post on how to rid turf type tall fescue lawns http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21427 of bermuda.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

DocV said:


> Pre-emergents might work to prevent the seed from germinating. If it looks like you have bermudagrss in the Spring, see this post on how to rid turf type tall fescue lawns http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=21427 of bermuda.


Sorry to ask, but which Pre-emergents would you recommend?


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I've been using Ornamec 170 to kill the invading Bermuda in my fescue.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

For pre-emergent I would use a product with mesotrione (Tenacity, Meso 4SC) as it is toxic to bermudagrass and a pre-emergent treatment. Spray while they are still seeds and then monitor it to see if some sprout. If the seedlings do occur spray again and this time add triclopyr (Turflon Ester, Triclopyr 4, Ortho WeedBGon Oxalis Clover and Chickweed) at the rate noted in the link I previously mentioned.

As far as the Ornamec mentioned above, in spring if you need it go with Ornamec Over the Top vs. Ornamec 170 as it has a higher concentration of fluazifop which is another chemical toxic to bermudagrass. Again combine this with triclopyr for maximum effect.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

DocV said:


> For pre-emergent I would use a product with mesotrione (Tenacity, Meso 4SC) as it is toxic to bermudagrass and a pre-emergent treatment. Spray while they are still seeds and then monitor it to see if some sprout. If the seedlings do occur spray again and this time add triclopyr (Turflon Ester, Triclopyr 4, Ortho WeedBGon Oxalis Clover and Chickweed) at the rate noted in the link I previously mentioned.
> 
> As far as the Ornamec mentioned above, in spring if you need it go with Ornamec Over the Top vs. Ornamec 170 as it has a higher concentration of fluazifop which is another chemical toxic to bermudagrass. Again combine this with triclopyr for maximum effect.


I never used a herbicide in my whole life. So I cannot buy a ready product at like Home Depot but have to mix all myself?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

The only product I can think of that is pre-mixed would be BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Control for Lawns. The herbicide in it is fenoxaprop which can stress bermudagrass. However this is not a pre-emergent so the bermudagrass has to grow shoots to be effective and it would be best not to let it get that far. Other than that there is no product I can think of except perhaps applying a 3-way herbicide like Ortho WeedBGon and hoping it is toxic enough to kill the seed as it germinates.

It is not hard to mix spray herbicides. How big is the area you need to spray?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Like @DocV said it's not very hard to mix. I was the same way when I first started out and just wanted to buy premixed stuff from a big box store. Buy yourself a 1 or 2 gallon sprayer and follow the rates on the label and you will be good to go. Also in the long run a lot cheaper to buy the concentrate bottles and mix yourself.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

DocV said:


> The only product I can think of that is pre-mixed would be BioAdvanced Bermudagrass Control for Lawns. The herbicide in it is fenoxaprop which can stress bermudagrass. However this is not a pre-emergent so the bermudagrass has to grow shoots to be effective and it would be best not to let it get that far. Other than that there is no product I can think of except perhaps applying a 3-way herbicide like Ortho WeedBGon and hoping it is toxic enough to kill the seed as it germinates.
> 
> It is not hard to mix spray herbicides. How big is the area you need to spray?


Just 2500 sqft


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Ok, 2500 sqft is a reasonable size to use a 2 gallon pump tank sprayer. You will just need to learn how to calibrate a tank sprayer and this video from the Pest and Lawn Ginja can help with that


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thank you all!


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

DocV said:


> For pre-emergent I would use a product with mesotrione (Tenacity, Meso 4SC) as it is toxic to bermudagrass and a pre-emergent treatment. Spray while they are still seeds and then monitor it to see if some sprout. If the seedlings do occur spray again and this time add triclopyr (Turflon Ester, Triclopyr 4, Ortho WeedBGon Oxalis Clover and Chickweed) at the rate noted in the link I previously mentioned.
> 
> As far as the Ornamec mentioned above, in spring if you need it go with Ornamec Over the Top vs. Ornamec 170 as it has a higher concentration of fluazifop which is another chemical toxic to bermudagrass. Again combine this with triclopyr for maximum effect.


Where can I buy these products usually?


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

you can use the link above to DoMyOwn for almost any chemical discussed here on TLF.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Many you can buy on Amazon but their prices are not usually the best with the exception of Meso 4SC and perhaps Ornamec Over the Top. Otherwise you can try https://domyown.com, https://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/ and https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Hi there,
in the meanwhile (while waiting for my Tenacity order at domyown), the first hassocks of Bermuda appeared (about 50 already).
So shall I order Ornamec Over The Top and Trycolpr 4 now?

Is there a special timing to apply? Start when I received the herbicides? I read DocV Link a couple of times, but as English is only my third language and the topic is very complex, I do not understand how to transfer this to my problem/context.

What do I apply now and how?


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

I sprayed Tenacity last week and just followed the instruction in the manual for the mix ratio of water/herbicide.
Most of the bermuda grass has turned white (bleached) at the leafs already.

I have received my shipment with Ornamec Over The Top and Trycolpr 4 today.
What would be my next step?

Mix Tenacity with Trycolpr 4 and spray again?
Or mix Ornamec Over The Top and Trycolpr 4 and spray now?

Thank you for your advice!


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

Are you planning to overseed again this fall?


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

I am not sure. I am very inexperienced. So if you would give me advice/a schedule, I would follow it.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

You had started the thread by saying you accidentally overseeded with Bermudagrass so I thought perhaps you would overseed again with turf type tall fescue. If not that is ok, but it does help further suppress the Bermudagrass because the TTTF occupies any bare soil and competes with the Bermuda for resources.

The top post in the Cool Season Lawn subforum is the Cool Season Lawn Guide. In that guide there is a guide to overseeding.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thank you.

Yes, I want to fix the lawn and to overseed with Tall Fescue.
But what shall I do with the herbicides I bought? Use now? Use next year?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Check out www.domyown.com


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

I sprayed Tenacity last week and just followed the instruction in the manual for the mix ratio of water/herbicide.
Most of the bermuda grass has turned white (bleached) at the leafs already.

I have received my shipment with Ornamec Over The Top and Trycolpr 4 today.
What would be my next step?

Mix Tenacity with Trycolpr 4 and spray again?
Or mix Ornamec Over The Top and Trycolpr 4 and spray now?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

In SoCal it looks like the TTTF growing season is April to November. You should look up the date of the first frost in your area and seed no later than 45 days before that date. Each of these herbicides have a waiting period before seeding:

Tenacity - avoid spraying on newly germinated turfgrass. Otherwise you can spray it.
Ornamec - 14 day wait on reseeding
Triclopyr - 21 day wait on reseeding

Since you just sprayed Tenacity, I would wait 10-14 days before reapplication or use of Ornamec because both of these herbicides inhibit the same pathway in the plant so a dose of each in the same time frame could be toxic to your TTTF. At this point in the season I would probably not use Ornamec/triclopyr because you would need to wait 7 more days for the Tenacity to diminish before you could apply Ornamec/triclopyr and then you cannot seed for 21 days after that. This may not give you enough time to achieve 45 days before first frost. You need to determine you first frost date for your location and then we can put together a plan for overseeding.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thank you so much.
I used Tenacity on the 19th of August, would it be ok to use Ornamec + triclopyr around 14 days later, so mid next week?
This would leave me enough time to overseed last week of September. Frost here should not come before November 6.


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

That is cutting it a bit close. If I were you I would use Ornamec without the triclopyr which would move it up a week or just use Tenacity alone at the 5oz/acre rate that is used when overseeding and overseed at the same time. In the Spring when the Bermudagrass greens up you can apply Ornamec/triclopyr.

Others from SoCal may have more insight of timing.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

One more question: when I will do the overseeding with Tall Fescue, will I pull the bleached Bermuda grass out, or will I just leave it as it is?


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

For my upcoming Spring treatment, do I start with Tenacity (+Tryclp4 ?) or Ornamec (+Tryclp4 ?) ?


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## DocV (Mar 1, 2020)

@kbac You should use Ornamec and triclopyr.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

DocV said:


> @kbac You should use Ornamec and triclopyr.


This definitely got the encroaching Bermuda in my fescue under control.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

Thank you.
A short update. Used ornamec+trycoplir+surface 4 weeks ago.
Something went wrong, my tall fescue got more hurt than the bermuda.
What went wrong?
What are my next steps?


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## macattack (Nov 2, 2020)

I am going the Pylex/triclopyr route later this year, as the bermuda is everywhere amongst my tall fescue. Keeping the lawn long, like 4" helps suppress the bermuda until time to spray, which starts in August. This is cheap compared to starting over. Luckily its just the backyard, if I damage that in the process, no one will see it.

https://betterturf.basf.us/products/pylex--herbicide.html


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Second ? since this is a kill 'muda thread. Started a thread recently with no replies.
Is there any product I can use in a TTF/KBG stand to kill 'muda coming from the adjacent property


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

kbac said:


> Thank you.
> A short update. Used ornamec+trycoplir+surface 4 weeks ago.
> Something went wrong, my tall fescue got more hurt than the bermuda.
> What went wrong?
> What are my next steps?


Does anybody has some hints for me?
What went wrong? (a lot of tall fescue dead, almost no harm to bermude)
What to do now? re-seed / fertilize and do another treatment with pesticides later?


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

kbac said:


> kbac said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you.
> ...


You may have to just learn to love Bermuda grass at this point.


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## kbac (Aug 10, 2020)

I tried to like Bermuda, but I still hope there is another way. Any recommendation what to do as a next step?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Start over? Multiple rounds of the round up and seed.


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