# Non-irrigated fine fescue and Spring Nitrogen?



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

So, I'm in charge of fertilizer for several lawns in my family. One of them is a low-input, non-irrigated lawn--predominantly fine fescue (with some Tall Fescue, KBG, PR, and clover in some areas, too).

Most of this lawn is roughly 50+ years old. It was lightly fertilized Last year, (~1 lb/K of N from Milo and synthetic sources split up between Fall and Spring). It did pretty well like that.

The year or two before, I believe was similar. Before that, it went maybe 10 or 15 years with no N (other than that which occurs naturally). Before that, I believe it was fertilized sporadically.

This year, we are going attack weeds, so a little extra N might not be a bad idea. I'm considering 0.85 lb/K of N this Spring, split into two apps, because I got a better price on a pre-M that includes N this year versus the 0-0-7.

Does anyone think this is too much N, considering the factors posted above? FF is supposed to be provided with 1-2 lbs/K of N per year.

If we go this route, we're going to have to counterbalance the Spring apps with another 0.85 lb/K of N in the Fall, bringing the total N to 1.7 lbs/K for the year, which is near the upper recommended limit. I also don't want to have to go nuts with the mowing this Spring (once per week at most), or reduce the drought tolerance (since it's non-irrigated).

Just wanted to run these ideas past some of the other perfectionists on this board before I commit to the experiment.

I'm also going to make a follow-up post in this thread detailing the types of Nitrogen, shortly.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Ok, so here are the key specs of the fertilizer:

-Just over half of the N is methylene urea. Part of that is water-soluble slow release N (i.e. sparingly soluble in H2O). And part of it is water-insoluble N that relies totally on microbial action.

-Almost half of the N is true quick release. Of this quick release portion, just over a third is Ammonium Sulfate (making AS around one-fifth of the total N in the bag)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It sounds good to me. The only item to consider or add is weed treatment in the spring. The nitrogen with the prem will also feed the weeds. A couple of apps with a 3way should be enough.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

+1 on the sulfate content.
Any P and K content?
If not, consider a complete fertilizer (NPK e.g 4-1-2 ratio)


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> It sounds good to me. The only item to consider or add is weed treatment in the spring. The nitrogen with the prem will also feed the weeds. A couple of apps with a 3way should be enough.


That's already in our plan; thanks.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> +1 on the sulfate content.
> Any P and K content?
> If not, consider a complete fertilizer (NPK e.g 4-1-2 ratio)


The good news is that it has Sulfate of Potash in it, I believe.

No P in it though, due to local regulations...but I can throw down some starter fert or Milo on the reseeded patches. In any case, it got some P last year from the Milo, and will get it again in late Summer/early Fall.

Early Fall app(s) will be a mixture of Milo and 10-10-10 to achieve 50/50 fast-slow release balance.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

On the flip side...

So, does anyone think 1.7 pounds of N per thousand square feet for the year is too much for a very mature, non-irrigated FF lawn? Or, maybe being high-input for one year will do it some good.

Or that the 0.85 lb for the Spring could be overkill and make the turf too lush and disease-susceptible? It had rust last Summer/Fall (which you usually think of as invading slow-growing turf or low-input turf, so makes sense). Then again, so did my lawn and neighborhood.

Also, I can only mow once a week, at most. Last year, I had to double cut almost every time (at 2-week intervals), and didn't apply N until June.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Green said:


> ...Early Fall app(s) will be a mixture of Milo and 10-10-10 to achieve 50/50 fast-slow release balance.


~42% of the total Nitrogen in Milorganite is water soluble, no?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Ware Do you have a library of lawn related photos, or does your wife make you sleep in the garage with all your "beloved lawn care stuff" so you can just roll over and snap a shot to post? :lol:


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> Ware Do you have a library of lawn related photos, or does your wife make you sleep in the garage with all your "beloved lawn care stuff" so you can just roll over and snap a shot to post? :lol:












I kid. I walked out and snapped that one, but I do have quite a few saved out on postimage that I reference a lot.

I better save that one so people will believe us someday when we say Milo had 4% Fe back in the good old days :lol:


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

:rofl:


> I better save that one so people will believe us someday when we say Milo had 4% Fe back in the day.


Seriously. :thumbup: 
@Green 
This shouldn't come as a news flash for anyone, but I'm confused.
When, how much, and of what are you planning to apply? Per thousand sq feet, if you would.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Kidding aside...

@Ware: (cue LCN's Chicago accent for effect): We'll have to see, because they keep on changing the Milo.

I think they have 3 or 4 different Milo formulas out on sale right now, counting the Greens Grade you put the photo up of (which might or might not have a different analysis than the others, outside of the iron content). I can't keep track of it all, but the latest "Pro" bags I bought (last year) had 30% WSN and 70% WIN. If that's still the case this year, I'll add enough 10-10-10 to make the fast/slow ratio 50/50. If it ends up being 40%, I won't have to add much 10-10-10. And it will be applied at 0.85 lb of N per thousand to match the Spring amount. But that's for the late Summer/early Fall.

@Ridgerunner : I'm confused about your being confused! The stuff I got all lawn nutty about above, was Lebanon 25-0-5 with MESA. I'll need to use 3.4 lbs/K in the Spring, which results in 0.85 lb/K of N on the mature fine fescue lawn. The app rate is non-negotiable due to the pre-emergent and grub prevention concentrations in the bag. All I can do to prevent N overload, is break it up into two smaller split apps separated by several weeks.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ware said:


> I kid. I walked out and snapped that one, but I do have quite a few saved out on postimage that I reference a lot.


Wow, you really sleep in the garage!


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Thanks for humoring me. I can't help you with your concerns regarding disease and Spring nitrogen. That's more of a learn as you go situation depending on local conditions. Over the years there have been a number of discussion on the topic (mostly by people in Virginia and the Carolinas) with consensus being apply only 0.5# of N in the Spring and follow the University of N or S Carolina;s recommendation not to raise soil pH above 6.2 if possible. But that's way South of you. I think @j4c11 was involved in some of those discussions.
My suggestion has to do with potassium supply. Without doing all the math involved based on your products and application rates, it looks like you'll be applying less than half of the turf's potassium demand. Sufficient potassium is an important component in cell structure and turf disease and drought tolerance.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Ridgerunner , thanks for your input.. Btw, it works out to be 0.17 pounds per thousand of Potassium. Not much, but at least it's SOP and not MOP.

If anyone else has input on the N rates, let me know; I'll be buying the materials soon.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> it works out to be 0.17 pounds per thousand of Potassium.


Wow. I was thinking .3-.4 lbs/K. My estimating talents stink. FWIW agronomist/soil scientists estimate that turf needs about 1/2 Lb K for every 1 Lb of N applied. 1.7 lbs of N would create a demand for about .875 lbs of K.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Well, it's better than nothing. And not having soil tested it, we don't know what's already there. You do what you can.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Green said:


> Well, it's better than nothing. And not having soil tested it, we don't know what's already there. You do what you can.


 :thumbup:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Update: It has worked really well so far. I haven't even done the Fall Nitrogen app yet, and it's just starting to run out now recently from the Spring apps, I think. So, the methylene urea seems to have lasted all this time to some degree. It has been so overgrown many times this year, even through the first half of Sept.

For the Fall app, I will be using N, P, and K using Milo, 10-10-10, and a bit of slow release urea from coated urea and methylene urea.

The ratio for the average of all apps for the year is going to average out to like 10-1.3-2.6 if I did the math and estimation right. Some of the slow release N (especially from Milo) will hang around until Spring most likely. At that time, I plan to do a 0-0-7 Dimension app.


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