# Any regrets with TTTF



## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Overseeded heavily the hellstrip with Hogan's Blend. Hellstrip has no irrigation and much less input.
We'll see how she fares next - summer-

Don't really have much fescue except for the non irrigated areas. This time I went heavy on the overseed. We'll see if the TTTF dies out and the KBG fills it in, or will the TTTF remain green on the hellstrip


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

mobiledynamics said:


> Overseeded heavily the hellstrip with Hogan's Blend. Hellstrip has no irrigation and much less input.
> We'll see how she fares next - summer-
> 
> Don't really have much fescue except for the non irrigated areas. This time I went heavy on the overseed. We'll see if the TTTF dies out and the KBG fills it in, or will the TTTF remain green on the hellstrip


With no irrigation, once established, your TTTF will handle the heat/drought much better with much less tlc than KBG.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> With no irrigation, once established, your TTTF will handle the heat/drought much better with much less tlc than KBG.


Key phrase is "once established". That can take a few years. My one-year-ago seeded areas struggled for a while in the middle of this Summer...even with irrigation.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Eeeks. So that means no h20 aside from mother nature, some TTTF die off to be expected next year from this years overseed, another overseed in 2021, rinse and repeat ?

And -hope- that some of the TTTF remains alive to live another year and to get -established-


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

Green said:


> Key phrase is "once established". That can take a few years. My one-year-ago seeded areas struggled for a while in the middle of this Summer...even with irrigation.


Ditto. My issues might have also been fertilizer related as I didn't understand that new TTTF requires more fertilizer than established. I didn't put any fertilizer down from Nov 2019 until July 2020. I usually try to just feed in the fall but I guess that isn't such a great idea with new grass.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

mobiledynamics said:


> Eeeks. So that means no h20 aside from mother nature, some TTTF die off to be expected next year from this years overseed, another overseed in 2021, rinse and repeat ?
> 
> And -hope- that some of the TTTF remains alive to live another year and to get -established-


Typically, with TTTF you can expect to overseed every fall. There will be spots that die for various reasons but TTTF also thins out as it ages. I don't think there is any way around fall overseeding with TTTF.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Basically either way with KBG or TTTF it's going to be tough without irrigation. You'll find that TTTF stands a better chance with drought and heat than KBG. KBG loves water. Yes tttf doesn't spread like kbg but without irrigation, KBG won't go far. To each is his own but I love tttf. With 26k sq ft, kbg would be too much work me to handle. This was last fall after overseeding and Reno with SSS TTTF


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Just read this in a recent post and I recall reading this before. I guess I'm repeating the ? but does TTTF blades get wide if the patch is not DENSE ?

Part of the problem is soil.....the KBG plugs I have -planted- from seeding pots have stayed nice and green all summer. It's just last years KBG in the hellstrip seeded native, looked great in fall, went dormant and dry this summer.....with not much (hay) left in the patch. Waiting for some H20 and cooler temps to see if there are any dormant crowns alive...

Regardless, the hellstrip got overseed heavily. One, in KBG again. And for a comparison plot, the other got overseeded heavily with TTTF


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Basically either way with KBG or TTTF it's going to be tough without irrigation. You'll find that TTTF stands a better chance with drought and heat than KBG. KBG loves water. Yes tttf doesn't spread like kbg but without irrigation, KBG won't go far.


Can you quantify how much more water KBG needs vs TTTF, in inches of water?


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Basically either way with KBG or TTTF it's going to be tough without irrigation. You'll find that TTTF stands a better chance with drought and heat than KBG. KBG loves water. Yes tttf doesn't spread like kbg but without irrigation, KBG won't go far.
> ...


I cannot. Is there any studies or experiences that state that KBG does better than TTTF in heat/drought conditions without long periods of water/less maintenance? My experience with my tttf/kbg mix ,tttf was in a much better state after this heat wave of a summer we had and it was well irrigated.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Going back a few host (establishment aside). I'm walking into to see which one will survive. KBG will go dormant (if established) . TTTF will die and not go dormant. But in theory, it does require less input that KBG. I guess we shall see.....


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lets tackle this from 3 different aspects:

- Water usage - TTTF will use more water than KBG. In the ET calculations it all averages to 0.80 crop factor, but TTTF uses between 2 - 3.5in/week of water vs 1-2 inches for KBG. Table 2 https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/homelawnirrigation2011a.pdf

- Drought survival - US Climate office has different levels of drought. Ryan Knorr is currently sitting in a D3 level. This means that it hasnt rain in a while. Under these conditions, non irrigated lawn will first turn brown, then dormant and then die. TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead. KBG will survive for a few weeks. If it gets some rain (0.5in) it will survive a few more weeks. Can it survive a D4? hmm not likely unless it gets some rain.

- Appearance - here is the spot that TTTF has an advantage. At the start of a dry period, TTTF will remain green longer. The size of the leaf structure, the root system, etc does allow it to look greener longer while KBG goes into defense mode and turns brown. If you get a rain every 1-2 weeks, then TTTF will remain looking greener longer, but it doesnt mean it is growing/thriving. It is suffering and susceptible to fungus, and if it continues it will just die. This is why I think people say TTTF is more drought tolerant. It can tolerate a short duration stress looking better.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I cannot. Is there any studies or experiences that state that KBG does better than TTTF in heat/drought conditions without long periods of water/less maintenance? My experience with my tttf/kbg mix ,tttf was in a much better state after this heat wave of a summer we had and it was well irrigated.


I've seen some. Studies tended to find that TTTF uses a bit more water than KBG does, maybe an extra half inch per week. However...

-It tends to have deep roots, and finds the water more efficiently without drying out the soil just in one area.
-And it can stay green longer on less water, too. But once it goes brown, it's not as good at dormancy as KBG. No cool season lawn grass grass is really good at both things...it tends to be a tradeoff.

There is a chart somewhere showing how the various cool and warm season species compare to each other in the second regard (staying green vs. dormancy). TTTF is a decent compromise between both, but could be better at dormancy survival. There seems to be a direct link between dormancy survival and the extent of rhizomes in a grass, so maybe by improving the rhizomes, they'll improve the dormancy in TTTF a bit as time goes on.

Edit: g-man has actual data on the water use differences above. I was pulling rough numbers out of the air when I said maybe a half inch difference per week.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead. KBG will survive for a few weeks.


That's an exaggeration, as noted in my post above. All grasses do dormancy, even PR (which is worse at it than TTTF). From memory, the cool season grasses rank as follows in dormancy/living through drought when brown:

1. KBG (excellent - can often go like 8-12 weeks in drought under ideal conditions)
2. Fine Fescue (almost as good as KBG...can still die without irrigation for over a month or two)
3. TTTF (not as good, can survive a couple of weeks to a month, but not terrible either...could use improvement)
4. Creeping Bent (same dormancy/drought tolerance as Tall Fescue)
5. TTPR/PRG (about 2/3 as good as TTTF, so a marked decrease from KBG)

I'll try to find the chart.
Edit: see link later in this thread


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

mobiledynamics said:


> Just read this in a recent post and I recall reading this before. I guess I'm repeating the ? but does TTTF blades get wide if the patch is not DENSE ?


Yeah. Also when it gets high, like in a rough situation (which is also a low density situation). But KY-31 blades will get even WIDER and taller.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Green said:


> mobiledynamics said:
> 
> 
> > Just read this in a recent post and I recall reading this before. I guess I'm repeating the ? but does TTTF blades get wide if the patch is not DENSE ?
> ...


That was me asking that question... this thread seems to be getting more traction so I will repost here.



gm560 said:


> I have read that if seeded at too low a rate, TTTF can develop wider blades than if seeded densely. Anyone else ever heard this? Is this the case with the modern TTTF varieties or just older tall fescue? If so, how long does it take for this phenomenon to manifest? First year?
> 
> Trying to determine seeding rate for my buddy's reno. Doing 90/10 TTTF/KBG.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

gm560 said:


> I have read that if seeded at too low a rate, TTTF can develop wider blades than if seeded densely. Anyone else ever heard this? Is this the case with the modern TTTF varieties or just older tall fescue? If so, how long does it take for this phenomenon to manifest? First year?
> 
> Trying to determine seeding rate for my buddy's reno. Doing 90/10 TTTF/KBG.


As mentioned, I don't have a good idea of why it happens sometimes in the lawn. I think I have it happening right now for the past few weeks in one small patch...will verify that it's TTTF, and then watch it over the coming weeks to see what it does.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@gm560 I've noticed that at least on KBG, the blades go wider when they are next to an open area (bare spots). As the turf becomes more dense, they do thin out. I image it should be similar to TTTF, but not something I've researched.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Ouch on the recent post. I've been tinkering with TTTF more for the hellstrip since it's got lower input / zero irrigation. I've held on on a heavy overseed of it last year, as every time I hear fescue, I'm thinking wide and ugly.....

Heh, when we start yabbering about density vs. spread, it's analogous to all things in the garden like shrubs or annuals. Given room, they will grow wide. When not, they just focus their energy going VERT


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

g-man said:


> TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead.


Do you have any university studies that document this? Not putting you on the spot just curious since I haven't read this before. I live in the transition zone (mid Missouri) and everyone around here has TTTF. When a grass turns brown for a period of time, whether it's been half a week to multiple weeks, how are we certain it isn't in some stage of dormancy?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

moedank said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead.
> ...


I believe he was exaggerating as it will go dormant. It just doesnt handle dormancy as well as KBG.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

moedank said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead.
> ...


Page 78 in this document answers a lot of what you want to know in graphical format. It's very clearly presented: http://vaturf.org/publications/CTP_manual.pdf

Drought avoidance (staying green) and drought tolerance (dormancy/survival) ratings of all the grass types are compared.

In summary, if you assume KBG is the gold standard, the other cool season grasses rank as follows:

-Tall Fescue and Creeping Bent: about 67% as good as KBG at dormancy survival and 75% as good as Fine Fescue
-Perennial Ryegrass: about 45% as good as KBG and 67% as good as Tall Fescue.
-Fine Fescue: about 90% as good as KBG

The better the ranking, the better the survival in dormancy, and the more complete the dormancy.

So, Tall Fescue is not terrible, but not near KBG either (and not even as good as FF).

There are cousins of the Tall Fescue we know and use that go dormant readily and survive similarly as KBG, but no one has figured out to keep them green because heat induces them to go dormant readily, so they have not been used as lawn grasses. They're called Mediterranean types. https://www.noble.org/news/releases/new-summer-dormant-tall-fescue-variety-released/


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

> Tall fescue has no dormancy mechanism, which makes it more suitable for short-term


 -

https://extension.usu.edu/irrigation/ou-files/ez-plug/uploads/1_DroughtTolerantBluegrass.pdf

The first thing I googled.


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## GreenMountainLawn (Jul 23, 2019)

Looking at the article Green posted, TF can go 4-6 weeks without irrigation, thats a long time and unless your in an extreme drougt situation, prob, not likely. Now, if you live in the desert southwest or West Coast where summer rain is less likely, you know that's more a possibility. But most forums members i believe live in the Midwest, Southeast, Northeast/Mid-Atlantic/canada. I would wager that there hasn't been anyone in those areas that have gone 6 straight weeks without any rain. That's a long time without any rain. Maybe I'm wrong, and some have gone that long.


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## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

I understand that g-man likely didn't mean TTTF doesn't have any dormancy ability, just surprised to hear that it may be lower on the list compared to other grasses.

Thanks for the links everyone. Will do some reading after work.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

So in other words, during a drought, the time until death for TTTF and KBG is similar, but the TTTF will stay green longer. Further, in order to keep the grass going, the KBG actually needs less water than the TTTF.

Does this mean that, in terms of survivability, it may be easier to keep KBG alive during a drought, just not green?

Given the other benefits of KBG, why don't more people in the transition zone grow KBG? Are there other triggers besides drought (such as heat) that cause KBG to go dormant, and thus they would be brown most of the summer?


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

Pezking7p said:


> So in other words, during a drought, the time until death for TTTF and KBG is similar, but the TTTF will stay green longer. Further, in order to keep the grass going, the KBG actually needs less water than the TTTF.
> 
> Does this mean that, in terms of survivability, it may be easier to keep KBG alive during a drought, just not green?
> 
> Given the other benefits of KBG, why don't more people in the transition zone grow KBG? Are there other triggers besides drought (such as heat) that cause KBG to go dormant, and thus they would be brown most of the summer?


It is hard to keep KBG super dark green but I think the biggest reason is that to really get good KBG presence you have to typically start from scratch and kill everything. Seeding *** in a bare area takes a long time and requires a lot of patience and maintenance until it is mature. Sometimes it won't mature until the next spring. Seeding TTTF is much easier. I think that is probably the most common reason why KBG is less popular.

I think there might also be a lot of misinformation about KBG. I know several of my neighbors think KBG is much more high maintenance than TTTF but I wouldn't consider it that way.


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## 1028mountain (Oct 1, 2019)

TTTF is a bitch in my experience but really the only grass I can grow where I am. I struggled after my RENO (lots of die off) and had to reseed a bunch up until late October last year. Then struggled with the heat in this past July and had to overseed/reseed twice this late summer because I had more die off after I overseeded 2 weeks ago.

Its been a lot of work for little reward (maybe 2 months of great looking grass) so far but hoping with irrigation and practice it gets better.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

moedank said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > TTTF does not go dormant, it goes from brown to dead.
> ...


I've had fescue for many years and I've personally never witnessed fescue recover from dormancy. Once it's brown it's done. Bluegrass on the other hand, I've repeatedly seen go from full brown to 30-40% green and then completely fill up the area by spreading in a few months. Because I'm able to allow the bluegrass to go somewhat brown and I don't have to seed in the fall to make up for losses, my irrigation water usage with bluegrass is about 65% less than what it was with fescue.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

For those chiming in with a mixed TTTF/KBG and don't overseed, has the blue completely taken over the patch if you -don't overseed-


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

j4c11 said:


> moedank said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


Out of curiosity, when you water during summer stress, do you focus on more frequent waterings (2-3x/wk) to keep your KBG out of dormancy, or do you allow it to get dormant and wait out some heat, and then go hard with a deep and heavy watering program to pull it out of dormancy? I ask because in one of the turf manuals posted it stated that light watering of KBG during dormancy can cause more harm than good. So I'm wondering in practice if it works better to keep the KBG out of dormancy, or to allow it to go dormant for a span and then make a conscious decision to water it out of dormancy and commit to bringing it back.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

mobiledynamics said:


> For those chiming in with a mixed TTTF/KBG and don't overseed, has the blue completely taken over the patch if you -don't overseed-


I haven't paid too much attention to my yard as a whole but I have one anecdotal story.

I put in a swing set this spring. As expected the grass below each of the 3 swings went brown fairly quickly. Whether this was all TTTF in these spots or TTTF mixed with KBG, I can't be sure. I just know it all turned brown and flattened like a pancake. Each spot under the swings was about 20" wide by 3' long. Each spot filled with purely KBG about 3-4 weeks later and has stayed green for at least 1.5 months now after the KBG filled in.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

Badtlc - spot in question is irrigated ?

Going back to my OP. The blend is for low input non irrigated hellstrip. 
I have inquired about getting a line run - they can actually bullet a line to the hellstrip and be not too invasive.

My goal for this hellstrip was ideally for the conditions on non irrigation and due to hellstrip, sandwiched between hot asphalt/hot concrete.

Either the TTTF was going to green and be viable or I guess KBG all just go dormant and overtake it back if I don't overseed and the TTTF pffft's out.

I knew overseeing TTTF was a 50/50 based in the siting but we'll see.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Pezking7p said:


> Out of curiosity, when you water during summer stress, do you focus on more frequent waterings (2-3x/wk) to keep your KBG out of dormancy, or do you allow it to get dormant and wait out some heat, and then go hard with a deep and heavy watering program to pull it out of dormancy? I ask because in one of the turf manuals posted it stated that light watering of KBG during dormancy can cause more harm than good. So I'm wondering in practice if it works better to keep the KBG out of dormancy, or to allow it to go dormant for a span and then make a conscious decision to water it out of dormancy and commit to bringing it back.


It's somewhere in between. The grass is not all the same, some has deeper roots, some shallower, so they will handle drought stress differently. You'll have dormant plants intermixed with green. I aim for a uniform 50% green lawn with no large brown areas, and water accordingly when I see areas of drought stress. If the dormant stuff comes back great, if not the 50% green will spread and fill in pretty quickly.

Having said that I went after Bermuda pretty aggresively with tryclopyr and pylex this year, and it did some damage. I expect recovery will take a while, probably November.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

mobiledynamics said:


> Badtlc - spot in question is irrigated ?


Yes and the spots in question are right in the middle of the back yard zone where it gets the most water from the sprinklers.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

mobiledynamics said:


> For those chiming in with a mixed TTTF/KBG and don't overseed, has the blue completely taken over the patch if you -don't overseed-


I have not seen this happen to the point that it completely takes over. Try not to use an aggressive KBG cultivar, though.


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