# Colaman's Lawn Journal: Spring 2021 Lawn Reno Probs



## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

This place is excellent - I wish I found it sooner! I'm here to share my spring lawn renovation experience... Unfortunately, I started this reno before reading all of the great information on the cool season lawn guide, reno guide, overseeding guide, etc., so that means I'm also including all of my mistakes... and am hoping someone can help guide me in the right direction on next steps.

*Background:*
I started this reno in the spring because for years this area has been going down hill with it being probably ~87% weeds and with it not being level - as a result, there were several tripping hazards for the kids. I knew full well that if it didn't go well, at least the yard is now level and that I'd be overseeding in the fall.

*Steps Taken So Far:*


*Problems*
Other than performing a spring reno in and of itself, I think my biggest problem was at 21 DAG - as you can see in the chart above, at 21 DAG I threw more seed down in thin areas and applied the (Scott's) recommended dose of Starter fertilizer w/o PreM. However, I should have used their 'Triple Action for Seeding' fertilizer to get some meso back on the lawn. After the 21DAG applications, the lawn got thicker, but so has the crabgrass and some other weeds (including yellow nutsedge). At this point, I'm trying to prevent the weeds from taking over so I can avoid another full reno.

*Questions*

 On 7/18, it'll be 31 days since the last addition of Nitrogen. It'll also be 56 days since the initial PreM application. Do you think the lawn will benefit from the Scott's Triple Action for Seeding fertilizer so I can add Nitrogen and PreM at the same time? The goal would be to prevent further weeds from germinating throughout the next month before overseeding begins. (Scott's doesn't recommend applying another pesticide within 7 days of this product, so I'm trying to decide the best/most-important action to perform next)


 Or do you think it's more important to deal with the existing crabgrass and weeds? I have some Weed b Gon concentrate from a couple years ago, so I was thinking about putting that down since the grass is more established. But as you can see in some of the below pictures, some of the crabgrass is pretty mature - so I'm not sure if the Weed b Gon would even touch it. I understand that Drive XLR8 might be able to deal with more mature crabgrass, but I would have to order this product and wait for it to arrive. Is it worth it to invest in this product? Or can I just start reducing the HOC to try and cut the crabgrass lower to prevent it from growing horizontally, which has been crowding out the new grass.

I'm trying to manage this as much as possible with the products that I already have, since there has already been a decent amount of $ put into this project, but I am open to any suggestions. Thank you in advance for your help!!


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Welcome to TLF!

I wouldn't drop the Scotts with mesotrione now, since overseeding time for you is about 30 days away. I wouldn't worry too much about any remaining weed seeds at the time. The mature crabgrass and getting ready to overseed would be a higher priority, IMHO. I would look up the label on the Drive XLR8, for 3 important reasons, before you purchase it.

1. Determine if it could hurt your spring seedlings.
2. Will it be able to kill mature crabgrass? 
3. What is the reseeding interval. If it's more than 2-3 weeks, I would definitely skip it. A fall overseed is more important.

You pretty much lost the crabgrass battle for this year, but all is not lost. FYI-I purchased some Drive XLR8 several years ago and never used it. Spring PreM next year is your best weapon for crabgrass at this point. As long as you keep mowing frequently, you might be able to reduce crabgrass seed production for next year. If you can rake the area to fluff up the sprawled out crabgrass, you might be able to bag it with the mower to get some of the seedheads (if you have a bagger attachment for the rider). (Reducing the seedbank is helpful.) If not, spring PreM is your friend anyway.

***You get bonus points for the Snapper walk behind!!! :thumbup:


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

Hey Chris - thanks so much for taking the time to reply. And thanks for the bonus points on the Snapper mower - I see from your profile that you have a Snapper Hi Vac - very nice! :thumbup: I also have the Hi Vac attachment, so if I need to start bagging at some point to collect some of those clippings with the crabgrass seeds, I can definitely make it happen.

If I rake up the crabgrass so it's standing tall, I imagine that could agitate some of the seeds off of the crabgrass, letting it fall in any exposed soil before mowing/bagging. And if I don't apply the Scott's with mesotrione before doing so, it seems that could make even more crabgrass germinate before the fall overseeding process takes place. Do you think I should just ride out the next 30 days or so w/o any crabgrass treatment (chemicals) and then fluff up the low crabgrass and cut short before it's time to overseed? Or is it best to rake/mow/bag now to slow the horizontal crabgrass growth so it doesn't crowd out what's left of the lawn?

I understand crabgrass is an annual grass/weed and that it starts to die at first frost. However, the seeding process must start well before that. So I'm trying to understand if anyone has been successful over seeding into a lawn with crabgrass? Ex: will cutting the lawn low right before overseeding expose enough soil and slow down the crabgrass growth? Or is something like Drive XLR8 (if it actually works for "mature" crabgrass) or roundup necessary in thick crabgrass areas? (I'm sure it's case by case dependent... but I'm curious about others' experience)

By the way, the Drive XLR8 label says 'under certain conditions... crabgrass at 2-4 tiller may not provide complete control' and that 'optimum control is achieved when... applied before second tiller or as grass weeds _mature_'. I took that to mean that this product would work on mature crabgrass, but I could be wrong (?). It also states that 2 treatments should be made 14-21 days apart. And seeding can begin 7 days after application on most grass types 28 days after emergence. This is a link to their label for anybody's reference (http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld8LD012.pdf). With the time it will take for the product to arrive and the conditions to be just right, I'm almost thinking it's not worth it to go this route (ie: I might end up with an unused bottle like you  ). But it might have been beneficial to control any crabgrass if applied at the 28DAG mark. (need to check the pros/cons between this product and weed b gon with crabgrass control)

I apologize if some of this has been discussed in other threads, and I realize I'm straddling the line between overseeding and reno, but any feedback would be greatly appreciated!


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

My neighbors backyard was one big crabgrass festival last year. We cut it short de thatched and cut again last fall. We over seeded and shockingly it came out really nice. This spring we dropped pre m on a split application very little crabgrass so far.


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

M32075 said:


> My neighbors backyard was one big crabgrass festival last year. We cut it short de thatched and cut again last fall. We over seeded and shockingly it came out really nice. This spring we dropped pre m on a split application very little crabgrass so far.


@M32075 "Crabgrass festival", lol :lol: ... Thanks for sharing your experience, that's really good to know it worked out without having to glyphosate, etc.!

I got an Agri-fab tow behind dethatcher to loosen the soil during the spring reno... it worked wonders on what was left after the Roundup... but I'm a little concerned it might not be so kind with 2-3 month old new grass. Does anybody have experience with those kinds of dethatchers on new lawns? I can of course try and test it out on a small section before doing the whole area - but it'd be good to know what I'm in store for. (I feel bad enough when hand pulling crabgrass and lose some 'grass toddlers' that come up along with the crabgrass roots :| )

@Chris LI sorry, I forgot to mention you in my previous reply - still trying to learn how to navigate this forum


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

It's probably not going to be kind to that new grass which is fine your doing a over seed this fall. I can't stress strong enough is to get your pre M plan in place over the winter get your product in hand and apply at the right time early spring or come next summer you're going to be in the same exact spot with the crabgrass and probably worse.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

You're welcome!

"You don't no stinkin' rake!" You have a Hi-Vac! :nod:

I wouldn't be too concerned with dislodging crabgrass seeds, if you gently rake. However, if you are concerned, the suction on the Hi-Vac should stand the up the crabgrass pretty well with the bagging blade. If you want super suction, you can buy the bagging blade with holes for bolt-on wings (called Air Lifts). It's heavy and needs to be balanced, and avoid starting it up at full throttle, so you go easy on the crankshaft bearings. I can look up the info if you are interested.

I doubt you would have any major late summer infestation of newly seeded crabgrass. A little might grow, but wouldn't grow too fast, with temps trending cooler. Crabgrass is your biggest enemy in the spring, so spring PreM is critical. The battle for crabgrass is already lost for this year, but you will win the war with spring PreM. Saving your mesotrione for your seed down timing is more important to prevent fall weeds from competing with the seedlings.

As for your question of what to do now...

Regular mowing will inhibit seed production. I would fluff and bag if you have seedheads now. Then, bag or mulch after that, depending on whether or not you see seedheads. The safest course of action would be to keep bagging.

Since your spring seedlings aren't mature (generally 12 months is considered mature), I would be cautious with applying Drive XLR8 (I would avoid it). Summer is very stressful on turf, and especially stressful for immature turf. It's root system is underdeveloped, so keeping it adequately watered (with correct timing) is important. Pesticides can put an added stress that you really don't need right now. Seeding through crabgrass acts as a cover/mulch, to keep moisture in and birds out (a little). However, you will need still need to get good seed-to-soil contact. Crabgrass will breakdown and add organic matter (OM) to the soil. I love when we get our first frost and it turns that wonderful purple color (death). :twisted:


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

M32075 said:


> It's probably not going to be kind to that new grass which is fine your doing a over seed this fall. I can't stress strong enough is to get your pre M plan in place over the winter get your product in hand and apply at the right time early spring or come next summer you're going to be in the same exact spot with the crabgrass and probably worse.


@M32075 Thanks for the suggestion on the PreM plan - I will definitely be reading up on the best course of action for next spring... at least the lawn will be more mature and will be able to handle some weed b gon (or similar product) at the first sign of it, if any does slip past the PreM.


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

@Chris LI Haha, I agree, we definitely 'don't need no stinkin' rakes!'.......... unless absolutely necessary  Lots of great information and tips - thanks again! :thumbup:

It's funny you mention the purple color of the crabgrass as it dies, I've been starting to see some of that around the yard. Can't wait to see more of that in 2-3 months with the first frost! It's good to know I can keep the crabgrass where it's at and that it will act as a cover/mulch for the future overseeding! And I like the idea of not putting any weed killer down on this young grass, so close to overseeding time. Yesterday I dropped the HOC down from 3.5" to 3.25" and it looks marginally better. I will get to 3" soon and keep it there until it's time to overseed, then I'll go to ~1.5" as the overseeding guide suggests. Before that I will work on continuously fluffing and bagging some of the crabgrass and its seeds.



Chris LI said:


> Saving your mesotrione for your seed down timing is more important to prevent fall weeds from competing with the seedlings.


Even though the overseeding guide doesn't recommend Nitrogen at overseed timing, can I apply this Scott's product in order to make sure the mesotrione is providing some protection? I understand we want to slow down current lawn growth to allow time for germination; however, I am thinking the mesotrione might be more important in order to avoid additional crab grass seed germination with all the watering and sun that will be getting through to the soil at 1.5" HOC. Obviously if I had a stand alone mesotrione product, it would be more beneficial, but I was trying to make use of what I currently have in stock.

Thanks again for taking the time to provide feedback - I'm feeling more confident about this game plan and will post pictures and updates as we get closer to overseeding time.


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

I'm now just a little over 2 weeks into the overseeding project and wanted to share the progress. In order to try and recover from the spring reno crabgrass damage, I read the reno and overseeding guides several times (info I wish I found before attempting the spring reno).

<Prep Work>
Over a few days, I started by cutting the lawn at 1.5". Then dethatched using a tow-behind Agri-Fab dethacther and used a backpack blower to blow clippings into a pile for collection. A LOT of crabgrass was pulled up (some good grass too, but I was warned  ). After dethatching, some remaining crabgrass was now more vertical, so I cut the lawn twice at 1.5"... I did it twice because I could still hear the coarse crabgrass being cut by the mower. I also used a thatch rake to address any remaining crabgrass areas. Finally, I dropped the HOC to 1.25" and cut 2x then raked any remaining clippings/thatch for disposal. At this point, there were a lot of bare areas, so I got a good workout by using the thatch rake to rough up the soil to prepare for the over seeding.

<Seed Down>
I finally put seed down and used the overseeding rate, but made a criss-cross pattern to get more seed down since there were a lot more bare areas compared to a healthier lawn that requires an overseeding. Afterwards, I applied the Scott's Starter Fertilizer with meso, since I had a lot of crabgrass issues this year and don't have any Tenacity on hand. I was going to apply Slow Mow PGR, but didn't realize it had to go down maybe 1-2 weeks before the overseed. Instead, I opted to cut at 1.25" instead of 1.5" to buy some extra time. (I'm glad I used the starter fertilizer with meso, because it's very satisfying watching some of the existing/new weeds/crabgrass turn white and die) Finally, I spread some leftover EZ-Straw over the more bare spots to help keep animals away, keep soil moist, and help prevent washout from heavy rain. (spoiler alert... this part of the yard looked like a pond after a heavy storm, so I still had some washout - but I think it could have been worse if the straw wasn't used) Any weeds that pop up from the straw and my big box store seed (typical newbie :roll: ) will be taken care of when safe for the new lawn. In the future, I will do more research and go with a higher quality seed that y'all recommend.

<Next N App>
Since I applied the bag-recommended rate of ~0.9 lb/1k sqft at seed down timing, does this mean I should wait ~28 days from first seeding to apply more N? I was thinking of doing another half dose of the starter fertilizer with meso at that timing, and maybe adding more seeds to any existing bare spots. Since the seed I'm using has KBG mixed in, it's possible that some of that seed is still on the young side and might not be as far along as the PRG and Fescue - so could the meso in a half dose of the starter fertilizer affect those seedlings?

I thought I read some threads saying apply more tenacity at 30 DAG, but sometimes I see 30 days after seeding... unfortunately, this is where the Scott's label falls short and is one reason I screwed up the spring reno - it doesn't specify when a 2nd dose can be applied. All the rain recently and in the forecast for this week has me concerned that some of the meso might not last the ~4-6 weeks. Ugh, sorry for all these newbie questions - any help is always appreciated.

Thanks to everybody for providing this great information on this site and to those who provided support along the way. Below are some of the pics of the progress so far...





14 Days After Seeding - still a little thin in areas where there was heavy crabgrass


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't have a copy of the Scotts label handy, but the Tenacity label lists four weeks or at least two mowings, so I would go with 28 days post germination of the latest seedling emergence. If everything popped within a few days of each other, 30 days is probably safe.

The project looks great! Sorry I missed your previous post with questions.


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## Colaman (Jul 16, 2021)

Thanks @Chris LI! The Scott's label does not mention anything about re-application timing - this was partially the reason my spring reno had crabgrass issues. If it was clear and said to re-apply 30DAG, then I think it would have greatly reduced the amount of crabgrass this summer. I will go ahead and wait another couple weeks for the fertilizer w/meso based on your recommendation.

*<Fertilizer Schedule>*

* 9/5: 0.9 lb N/1ksqft 
> day of seeding; starter fertilizer w/meso

* ~9/24-9/26: 0.44 lb N/1ksqft 
>~19-21 days after seeding; starter fertilizer w/o meso @ minimum spreader setting
> by this time, I think there should be ~1/3 of the Sept 5th N remaining, so ~0.3 lb (~total of 0.74 lb N/rolling month, if I calculated correctly)

* ~10/10: 0.45 lb N/1ksqft
> starter fertilizer w/meso

* ~10/24: maybe one last ~0.5 lb N/1ksqft application


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