# Forms of Humic .. lawncology video



## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

This seems to be a place where the chaff gets separated from the wheat, and this video from John brought out some interesting aspects of humates and their value. I'm assuming it's ok to post the link (?) and wanted to see what y'all have to say. I haven't jumped on the bandwagon completely but this video makes a compelling case for the H12 vs granulars/etc. I would like to incorporate HA into my program and was thinking of going the DG route. Should this make me reconsider?

https://youtu.be/IXBQQR9WVJI


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Interesting information, thanks. I just started using humic acid products this year. I may have missed him commenting, I didn't hear him mention the humic within the CarbonX product.


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## Babaganoosh (Apr 21, 2019)

It's very hard for me to take those kinds of videos seriously due to the fact that he's biased.

I made my first batch of humic from soluble powder over a year ago. It doesn't fall out of solution that quickly at all. It's not watery like the one he shows at all.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

JP can say what he wants but I noticed a significant improvement when switching to Andersons Humic DG (purchased from A.M. Leonard) from GCF Humic 12. Granted....I'm using a higher rate of Humic DG so that's not a totally fair comparison but Humic DG is so easy to throw down it's hard not to get heavy handed. I personally like the fact that the granular Humic DG takes longer to break down and I honestly believe this gives my lawn a spoon feeding that is better for my situation. My situation is that I have a low (5.5) CEC soil and I don't have the time to do weekly applications.

If you are going to use a liquid then GCF Humic 12 is possibly the way to go but I'll never go back to exclusively using Humic 12. A good strategy would probably be to use both. For example, infrequent heavy rate applications of granular Humic DG and then tank mix a little maintenance app of Humic 12 whenever you are out spraying other stuff.

Slightly off topic but I've always been curious on the pricing of GCF products. They factor shipping into the retail price. What is the true retail price per gallon? This makes it tough to do a price comparisons.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Babaganoosh said:


> It's very hard for me to take those kinds of videos seriously due to the fact that he's biased.
> 
> I made my first batch of humic from soluble powder over a year ago. It doesn't fall out of solution that quickly at all. It's not watery like the one he shows at all.


I try to be nice when commenting on his YouTube videos because it is awesome content. But ultimately I feel the same way. I think he cherry picked (maybe not on purpose) products which proved a point. I'm pretty sure the humic powder I have used has been reacted (with potassium?) in a way that negates the issue that this whole video is about. Potassium humate is different than dehydrated humic. But getting into those details would have likely created confusion and not worked with the overarching goal of the video.


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## Babaganoosh (Apr 21, 2019)

Drewmey said:


> Babaganoosh said:
> 
> 
> > It's very hard for me to take those kinds of videos seriously due to the fact that he's biased.
> ...


Yeah I'm not trying to be a prick. I'm just saying that it's like those seen on TV commercials where they are selling a can opener. They show 3 examples of people fumbling opening a can. That's what I though of when he dipped his fingers in the humic.

I'm positive that the products are good products. I'm not debating that. If I was selling the products I'd probably do the same thing.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Alright, I have taken it upon myself to try to better understand exactly what I've bought when I bought the humic/fulvic/kelp blend at kelp4less. So I am going to run my own little test. Not trying to prove anyone wrong. Mostly just trying to make sure that I'm not "getting screwed" if I continue to purchase certain materials.

So I have created approximately a 12% by weight solution of humic/fulvic/kelp by combining 6.5oz of water and .9oz of humic/fulvic/kelp. This is obviously not emulating humic12 as much as it is RGS (and even then, not a true % 1:1 match, but reasonably close). I'm going to do a similar finger dip test every once in a while without stirring. Water was initially warm but not hot. I agitated with a spoon but nothing more than 15 seconds of stirring.

Showing 6.5oz of water. 


Showing an additional .9oz of h/f/K. 


Finger dip test after stirring. 


Initial "dip" looks more like a solution than suspension in my opinion. In fact, this looks nothing like his finger dip into the humic powder at 9m 25s in the youtube video. Looks pretty much like his Humic-12. Time will tell!


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Exactly 1 hour later with no agitation...



As noted earlier, this is clearly a solution...not a mixture.

I am happy with the results of this test and what it means for my lawn.

Moral of this situation is...know your source and your product. I am sure that there are "rip off" humic products out there. But there are certainly many good ones as well.

@Grass Clippins Any chance you'd be willing to test something similar with Humic DG? Based on the videos I've seen from Doc, I'm guessing that stuff fully dissolves into a solution as well, albeit slower and with more agitation required. If so, I may switch to that because $/lbs it is the best deal.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

Alright @Drewmey ...lets get to the bottom of this stuff.

* Humic DG Test 1:* I'm going to see how much rain fall (inches) it takes to dissolve the prill. We've had a lot of rain lately so hopefully this happens sooner than later.


*Humic DG Test 2:* I put 1.0 ounce of Humic DG (70% Humic Acid) into 4 ounces (by weight) on water. I believe this dilution gives me 14% Humic Acid?

The prill


The prill with water, no stirring. In real life the rain would act as an agitator.


The finger test. No a fair comparison considering that this is not a powder but a slow release granular.


Paper towel test. I stirred this up with my finger then dipped in a folded paper towel. I then squeezed out the liquid to see what's left behind. The prill feels like they are still mostly intact. I will stir and test again in an hour. I guess we are wanting to see the finger test once fully dissolved?


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> Alright @Drewmey ...lets get to the bottom of this stuff.
> 
> * Humic DG Test 1:* I'm going to see how much rain fall (inches) it takes to dissolve the prill. We've had a lot of rain lately so hopefully this happens sooner than later.
> 
> ...


Thanks for trying this. And I am certainly no scientist, but I do think that the "finger test" is a reasonable visual test to differentiate between solution and suspension. If it's solution, the liquid on your finger should look relatively homogeneous (like vanilla extract). If it's a suspension, I would expect to see a visual difference where you see more black specks vs. a black homogeneous liquid. Or at least compare to the results of the youtube video. Water rolled straight off his finger in the video. If someone has a better method, I'm all hears.

EDIT: And I don't think it's unfair for you to agitate the liquid. Personally I'm not curious as to how slow or fast humic DG dissolves, I'm more curious as to whether it ever forms a homogeneous solution which can easily penetrate the soil like John is saying the Humic-12 does.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@Drewmey It took less than an hour to breakdown and it definitely looks like a suspension. I wish I knew more about the science of this stuff but I'm not sure why he thinks it's best for the soil to have a homogenious liquid. It has it's obvious advantages if you are doing a liquid application but outside of that I don't get the advantage. If anything it seems like a suspension would give you the benefit of the grit becoming part of the soil vs having a pure liquid that just goes deeper and deeper in the soil over time, moving further away from where it needs to be. I guess that's why I see the benefit to using both granular and liquid.

Your Kelp4less finger test looks a lot like the Humic12 finger test. I'll probably go that route when I need more in the liquid form.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

You guys take this to a whole new level !! Hats off to you two, and much appreciated as well.

If the price for H12 didn't account for the middle men/shipping this may be an easy decision. There's value in having the liquid mixed and ready to go on demand when needed, esp when you want to support those behind it. I think that's what's hard to digest initially, all things being equal.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> If anything it seems like a suspension would give you the benefit of the grit becoming part of the soil vs having a pure liquid that just goes deeper and deeper in the soil over time, moving further away from where it needs to be. I guess that's why I see the benefit to using both granular and liquid.


An interesting thought. Logically it even sort of makes sense that for sandy soils, granular could be *better* due to not getting lost to draining deep in the soil. Liquid making more sense for clay soils.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@corneliani We go hard on The Forum. In the words of Big Daddy Kane "Ain't No Half Steppin".


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

The big thing I was wondering while watching the video is how applicable this really is. We're watching someone using paper towel as a standin for soil, and we're to assume that the results in these super artificial conditions translate to what will happen on a lawn. Not only that, but we're to assume that they actually make a practical difference.

For example, why is so much emphasis placed on how long it takes the particles to get down into the root zone? The experiment shows particles getting caught up on the "soil" layer, but in real life they wouldn't stick there forever, they would just take longer to break down, wouldn't they?


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2019)

I bought this humic acid product mentioned on this forum in April - https://www.amleo.com/ultramate-lq-2-1-2-gallon-jug/p/UMLQ25/

Ultramate LG humic acid - $35 + $18 shipping. 12% humic, 3% potassium, 1% sulfur. Seems very similar to N-ext Humic 12, both are around $50 for 2.5 gallons and both are 12% humic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irE-EEBMgfU&feature=youtu.be


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

macdawg said:


> I bought this humic acid product mentioned on this forum in April - https://www.amleo.com/ultramate-lq-2-1-2-gallon-jug/p/UMLQ25/
> 
> Ultramate LG humic acid - $35 + $18 shipping. 12% humic, 3% potassium, 1% sulfur. Seems very similar to N-ext Humic 12, both are around $50 for 2.5 gallons and both are 12% humic.


Thanks. I've been told by the (I think) Owner of Earthworks that soluble humic acid powder must be attached to a potassium ion. Therefore he said look out for products that have roughly a 0-0-3 NPK value, as it implies that the humic is truly soluble.

This makes me think that maybe Ultramate LG may be made by reconstituting a humic powder. Whereas Humic-12 made by keeping it as a liquid all along.


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## lawndog (May 12, 2018)

Macdawg, how has the product worked out for you? Thinking of trying it.


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2019)

I've been pleased, I do think my the vigor of my lawn is way better this year and a lot of that I think is due to humic.

The best example I have of this product working is my new crepe myrtle is growing like a weed. When I planted it I gave it a tiny dose of miracle grow, 8oz humic and a bunch of water. A neighbor planted several crepe myrtles the same day and they are about half the size. Not sure why that is but I think it was the humic at work.


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## Babaganoosh (Apr 21, 2019)

Nitrogen and water is probably what is making your plants grow. I'm no rocket engineer but that's generally what nitrogen and water do. You also generally don't want to add nitrogen to plants in their first year. Similar to grass you want to encourage root growth (establishment).


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## Pawel (Feb 1, 2019)

...and just got an email from amleo that free shipping is on. it's a conspiracy, i tell you. stocked up on some granular humic and ultramate jug.


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## bhutchinson87 (Jun 25, 2018)

Great info in here, thank you guys. This is probably a bit off topic, but why should someone purchase K4L F/H/K blend over the Extreme Blend?


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

bhutchinson87 said:


> Great info in here, thank you guys. This is probably a bit off topic, but why should someone purchase K4L F/H/K blend over the Extreme Blend?


From previous contact with Kelp4less about the extreme blend, I was told it was 70% amino acids, 10% H/F/K each. For better or worse. So it depends on your goals. Fairly low H/F/K counts.


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## TShir23 (Oct 4, 2018)

I've been happy with the extreme blend from k4L. I also add extra humic to the mix.I'm sure he used non reputable products.


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## gpbrown60 (Apr 7, 2018)

TShir23 said:


> I've been happy with the extreme blend from k4L. I also add extra humic to the mix.I'm sure he used non reputable products.


TShir23 How often do you apply the Extreme Blend and do you use a hose end sprayer?


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## TShir23 (Oct 4, 2018)

gpbrown60 said:


> TShir23 said:
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> 
> > I've been happy with the extreme blend from k4L. I also add extra humic to the mix.I'm sure he used non reputable products.
> ...


Every 2 weeks with a hose end sprayer


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## lawndog (May 12, 2018)

Pawel said:


> ...and just got an email from amleo that free shipping is on. it's a conspiracy, i tell you. stocked up on some granular humic and ultramate jug.


Did they give you a coupon code for the free shipping?


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@lawndog 7E19P This is a hot coupon, you only need a $50 order to get free shipping. Good until July 29th.


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## gpbrown60 (Apr 7, 2018)

TShir23 said:


> gpbrown60 said:
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> > TShir23 said:
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Thanks. I was applying Extreme Blend weekly with a hose end sprayer and I believe it was too frequent as the lawn looked dry. Do you think the 70% Amino Acids is too strong to apply weekly? I see where you are adding humic to your application.


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## TShir23 (Oct 4, 2018)

gpbrown60 said:


> TShir23 said:
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If I was going to do it weekly I would maybe lower the dosage.
Yes I just started adding the extra humic. I wanted to try and make my own liquid dethacther/aerate so I asked k4l what their recommendation would be on top of the extreme blend. They suggested that I add extra humic and also said I could add a small amount of yucca extract. So I will probably add the yucca next season.

I do the extreme blend every 2 wks and add the humic monthly.


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## TShir23 (Oct 4, 2018)

gpbrown60 said:


> TShir23 said:
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> > gpbrown60 said:
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I believe the amino should help with drought conditions and should also give a little growth push after you spray it. I would try every 2 wks or cut back on the mix rate.


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## gpbrown60 (Apr 7, 2018)

Thanks again!


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