# what kind of weed is this?



## msa151

Hello all!
I am very new to my house and equally new to self lawn care and trying to get the basics done for now.
First of all, I am in central IL, so I am assuming that I will have a cool season lawn. (please correct me if I could be wrong).

2ndly, I see a few of these around in my flower areas. (I am assuming it is a weed?). What is it and what to do about it?











Thank you


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## The Anti-Rebel

looks like thistle.


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## ForsheeMS

I agree with thistle. You can easily pull them up but wear a good pair of leather gloves as they do have thorns. It would be best to get rid of them before they go to seed which looks like really soon!


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## Muddysneakers77

Deff thistle. Got a lot of that around the roadside were I live. Spray it with concentrated white vinegar (20% +), you can order off amazon. It's natural alternative to round up, and it will be dead in hours.


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## g-man

I agree with forshee. Those are large. Pull them by hand and place immediately into a trash bag. You don't want to spread the seeds.


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## msa151

Thanks guys.
If I pull them off, should I use anything to prevent them from coming back?


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## steven harnois

After you pull them watch the area like a hawk and spot spray any that reappear with a trimec type 3way herbicide at label rate. Weeds are a lot easier to control when young.


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## LeeB

That is unmistakably Canada thistle (Cirsium arvense), an extremely difficult to control noxious weed. It falls under noxious weed laws in many states, including Illinois, which means you and your neighbors are legally required to take care of it. Otherwise, you may get a visit from a weed control superintendent and be forced to pay a fine. I suggest working with your neighbors to eradicate it since it can easily spread from neighboring properties.

Most of the plant lives underground in an extensive underground root system. You will notice that it occurs in bunches of plants up to 25 feet in diameter, what you see as multiple weeds are all usually part of the same plant connected underground. The roots can go up to 20 feet down, and the plant is able to store energy underground to survive from year to year (top growth dies off every year). It spreads underground and puts up new shoots every few inches or feet as it does so. It also spreads via seed. The seeds are tiny brown pieces attached to a feathery pappus that allows the wind to spread the seeds like a cottonwood tree. A single plant can produce thousands of seeds which can travel miles with the wind. The seeds remain viable in the soil for up to 20 years.

Control is very difficult because of the underground root system. It takes several years or more of continued efforts for complete eradication. Tilling will not work, and will actually make things worse. The plant responds to severed roots by putting up new shoots from each end of the cut root. And it only takes a root fragment a fraction of an inch for the plant to survive and grow. Therefore you will get many more plants coming up after tilling. You also cannot till deep enough to get all the roots.

Pulling them all out will also be a futile effort because the plant will respond by putting up more shoots. Likewise burning and mowing will have similar effects (remember most of the living plant is underground). Continued mowing will slowly kill off the plant over several seasons as its underground carbohydrate reserves are depleted, if you choose this route. You have to maintain continued long-term dominance over top growth in order to win the war against this weed.

The most effective control method is with herbicides. Spraying them will glyphosate (Roundup) will work adequately. Make sure you use a full-strength solution and add a non-ionic surfactant to enhance herbicide absorption. You want the herbicide to translocate to the roots to kill the whole plant. Therefore you want to spray glyphosate only without any weed-burning additives that harm the leaves (buy the 41% concentrate and mix it, avoid the premixed homeowner grade stuff which hardly works). You need to spray on a sunny day when the plant is rapidly growing, this is important. It can't be too hot (above 85º) or dry, and it can't rain for 4 hours afterwards. Wait 24-48 hours for the herbicide to be translocated to the roots before removing the top growth. It may take up to a week to see effects of glyphosate, on Canada thistle you will see the tops turning yellow as they become protein deficient, before the plants eventually die completely.

If you have thistle in the lawn or don't want to use Roundup, you have a few options. Regular 2,4D lawn-safe herbicides will work, they may take several applications however. The most effective herbicides against Canada thistle are in the Picolinic acid family. This includes triclopyr, which is often found in consumer herbicides formulated for controlling poison ivy, clover, and oxalis (read the label). You can also buy it in a concentrate. Using this in a garden is tricky because it leaves a residual that lasts for several months or longer. Another very effective herbicide in that family is aminopyralid (Milestone). This one is expensive, but it works really well, and has a residual that lasts for several years. Do not use that one in a garden, or on a lawn where grass clippings are recycled or composted because the residual herbicide in the compost will kill garden plants. Add a surfactant and follow the spraying tips above. I've had success spraying thistles at night after a good growing day as well.

For the average person wanting to control Canada thistle in their yard, I would recommend they just go buy something pre-formulated at the store with triclopyr (make sure it is lawn safe, not Roundup!) and start spraying (always read the whole label first).

Spraying is the most effective if you do it when the plant is in the rosette stage (horizontal growth) or bolting stage (rapid vertical growth) right before seed head formation. It looks like your plants are at this stage or further. Once seed heads are formed, growth stops and spraying isn't as effective. So timing is important. If you have a lot of little plants in your lawn, then you need to just blanket spray it because you can go out and spot spray every day and still not make much progress as new ones pop up. Also, it is very likely you will have some thistle return in the next few years, so you will need to be vigilant. This is due to the plants not being completely eradicated and residual seeds germinating out of the ground. If you are effective spraying Canada thistle with a synthetic auxin herbicide, you will notice the stems bend over and leaves curl within a couple of hours for bolting plants. That is the sign of death and is very satisfying once you've dealt with this monster.

The other thing you do not want to let happen is seed head formation. You want to control all your thistles before they get to the flowering stage. Once they've flowered, they can form seeds even after you've sprayed them. If you have plants in the flowering stage (I see you do), you need to cut the heads off and dispose of them ASAP so they don't go to seed. If you have active seed heads, you need to remove those too ASAP very carefully. If the seeds and pappus seperate from the head, they are almost impossible to pick up because the tiny seed falls off.

My property was completely infested with this weed when I got here, and it's been a long war over the past two seasons, but I'm winning so far. The first year controlling them is really bad, but it gets a lot easier with time. It's completely gone from my yard, but I have plants showing up still in other areas. I go on thistle patrol with the sprayer every couple weeks, a necessary minor chore. I alternate herbicides to prevent resistance from forming. Canada thistle is almost a perfect weed, nature did an outstanding job conceiving it. Learning about how to control this weed is partly what got me interested in lawn care.


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## LeeB

Muddysneakers77 said:


> Deff thistle. Got a lot of that around the roadside were I live. Spray it with concentrated white vinegar (20% +), you can order off amazon. It's natural alternative to round up, and it will be dead in hours.


Don't waste your time with vinegar, it will kill the top growth but the plant will respond with more shoots within a week or two.


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## Muddysneakers77

LeeB said:


> Muddysneakers77 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Deff thistle. Got a lot of that around the roadside were I live. Spray it with concentrated white vinegar (20% +), you can order off amazon. It's natural alternative to round up, and it will be dead in hours.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't waste your time with vinegar, it will kill the top growth but the plant will respond with more shoots within a week or two.
Click to expand...

I've been using mine to kill 'horsetail' weed. That weed (along with ground ivy) is like a machine to kill. You can pull it (don't drop any as it spreads), has deep roots that are connected like a line so pulling does nothing long term. Grew thru ALL OF WEED BARRIER AND 2" wood chips. Grows in the cracks of my newly built retaining wall. I seriously scratch my head, at this weed---its like some prehistoric plant that will not be fully killed--just mildly weakened. Pray you never have to deal with plant.


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## troksd

I used Changeup herbicide. Two applications over a 6 week period did it for me.


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## msa151

LeeB said:


> That is unmistakably Canada thistle (Cirsium arvense), an extremely difficult to control noxious weed. It falls under noxious weed laws in many states, including Illinois, which means you and your neighbors are legally required to take care of it. Otherwise, you may get a visit from a weed control superintendent and be forced to pay a fine. I suggest working with your neighbors to eradicate it since it can easily spread from neighboring properties.
> 
> Most of the plant lives underground in an extensive underground root system. You will notice that it occurs in bunches of plants up to 25 feet in diameter, what you see as multiple weeds are all usually part of the same plant connected underground. The roots can go up to 20 feet down, and the plant is able to store energy underground to survive from year to year (top growth dies off every year). It spreads underground and puts up new shoots every few inches or feet as it does so. It also spreads via seed. The seeds are tiny brown pieces attached to a feathery pappus that allows the wind to spread the seeds like a cottonwood tree. A single plant can produce thousands of seeds which can travel miles with the wind. The seeds remain viable in the soil for up to 20 years.
> 
> Control is very difficult because of the underground root system. It takes several years or more of continued efforts for complete eradication. Tilling will not work, and will actually make things worse. The plant responds to severed roots by putting up new shoots from each end of the cut root. And it only takes a root fragment a fraction of an inch for the plant to survive and grow. Therefore you will get many more plants coming up after tilling. You also cannot till deep enough to get all the roots.
> 
> Pulling them all out will also be a futile effort because the plant will respond by putting up more shoots. Likewise burning and mowing will have similar effects (remember most of the living plant is underground). Continued mowing will slowly kill off the plant over several seasons as its underground carbohydrate reserves are depleted, if you choose this route. You have to maintain continued long-term dominance over top growth in order to win the war against this weed.
> 
> The most effective control method is with herbicides. Spraying them will glyphosate (Roundup) will work adequately. Make sure you use a full-strength solution and add a non-ionic surfactant to enhance herbicide absorption. You want the herbicide to translocate to the roots to kill the whole plant. Therefore you want to spray glyphosate only without any weed-burning additives that harm the leaves (buy the 41% concentrate and mix it, avoid the premixed homeowner grade stuff which hardly works). You need to spray on a sunny day when the plant is rapidly growing, this is important. It can't be too hot (above 85º) or dry, and it can't rain for 4 hours afterwards. Wait 24-48 hours for the herbicide to be translocated to the roots before removing the top growth. It may take up to a week to see effects of glyphosate, on Canada thistle you will see the tops turning yellow as they become protein deficient, before the plants eventually die completely.
> 
> If you have thistle in the lawn or don't want to use Roundup, you have a few options. Regular 2,4D lawn-safe herbicides will work, they may take several applications however. The most effective herbicides against Canada thistle are in the Picolinic acid family. This includes triclopyr, which is often found in consumer herbicides formulated for controlling poison ivy, clover, and oxalis (read the label). You can also buy it in a concentrate. Using this in a garden is tricky because it leaves a residual that lasts for several months or longer. Another very effective herbicide in that family is aminopyralid (Milestone). This one is expensive, but it works really well, and has a residual that lasts for several years. Do not use that one in a garden, or on a lawn where grass clippings are recycled or composted because the residual herbicide in the compost will kill garden plants. Add a surfactant and follow the spraying tips above. I've had success spraying thistles at night after a good growing day as well.
> 
> For the average person wanting to control Canada thistle in their yard, I would recommend they just go buy something pre-formulated at the store with triclopyr (make sure it is lawn safe, not Roundup!) and start spraying (always read the whole label first).
> 
> Spraying is the most effective if you do it when the plant is in the rosette stage (horizontal growth) or bolting stage (rapid vertical growth) right before seed head formation. It looks like your plants are at this stage or further. Once seed heads are formed, growth stops and spraying isn't as effective. So timing is important. If you have a lot of little plants in your lawn, then you need to just blanket spray it because you can go out and spot spray every day and still not make much progress as new ones pop up. Also, it is very likely you will have some thistle return in the next few years, so you will need to be vigilant. This is due to the plants not being completely eradicated and residual seeds germinating out of the ground. If you are effective spraying Canada thistle with a synthetic auxin herbicide, you will notice the stems bend over and leaves curl within a couple of hours for bolting plants. That is the sign of death and is very satisfying once you've dealt with this monster.
> 
> The other thing you do not want to let happen is seed head formation. You want to control all your thistles before they get to the flowering stage. Once they've flowered, they can form seeds even after you've sprayed them. If you have plants in the flowering stage (I see you do), you need to cut the heads off and dispose of them ASAP so they don't go to seed. If you have active seed heads, you need to remove those too ASAP very carefully. If the seeds and pappus seperate from the head, they are almost impossible to pick up because the tiny seed falls off.
> 
> My property was completely infested with this weed when I got here, and it's been a long war over the past two seasons, but I'm winning so far. The first year controlling them is really bad, but it gets a lot easier with time. It's completely gone from my yard, but I have plants showing up still in other areas. I go on thistle patrol with the sprayer every couple weeks, a necessary minor chore. I alternate herbicides to prevent resistance from forming. Canada thistle is almost a perfect weed, nature did an outstanding job conceiving it. Learning about how to control this weed is partly what got me interested in lawn care.


Thank you much for such a detailed response. Eye opener and frightening!
Unfortunately, before reading your post, I pulled out all the visible parts of this weed.
Any suggestion what to do now?
Also, when you suggest a herbicide, could you please recommend a brand name as an example? Thanks


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## LeeB

msa151 said:


> Thank you much for such a detailed response. Eye opener and frightening!
> Unfortunately, before reading your post, I pulled out all the visible parts of this weed.
> Any suggestion what to do now?
> Also, when you suggest a herbicide, could you please recommend a brand name as an example? Thanks


Well all you can do is wait for them to come back then. Spraying when they are medium size works best because you have the most surface area to get herbicide into the plant.

Here's a list of products that contain triclopyr that would be available most places:
Ortho Posion Ivy & Tough Brush Killer
Ortho Weed B Gon Chickweed, Clover & Oxalis Killer for Lawns
Gordon's Brush Killer
Gordon's Brush-No-More
Bayer Advanced Brush Killer


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## msa151

What would you consider a medium size?


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## Kennedy

I had a major thistle problem at my new house when I moved in ~2years ago. I pulled them initially, and they came back with a vengeance. A neighbor recommended "Monterey ThistleDown" (https://www.domyown.com/monterey-thistledown-p-17928.html), active ingredient "Clopyralid". I sprayed them according to label directions spring of last year, and haven't seen a single one return. Highly effective in my case.


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## LeeB

msa151 said:


> What would you consider a medium size?


About 6" horizontally or vertically.


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## msa151

Thanks


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## FuzzeWuzze

The good thing about thistle is its relatively shallow rooted normally and very easy to pull with some gloves on, toss and problem solved no spraying required. We left for a week and came back to several we must not have seen in our garden before leaving that were well over 1' tall, and our neighbors have some that are well over 2' tall with thick stems like sapling tree's


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## msa151

Update: when I started the fight, thistle was there in most of my flower beds. I started with Ortho B Gon Chickweed, Clover & Oxalis Weed Killer for Lawns RTS Trigger (from amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011HY6WJK/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1).
After spraying, it started dying, I pulled them out when they appeared dead. Notice few of these coming back in a couple of days. I let them grow to about 6", sprayed again, and pulled when they were dead. So far, I have done 3 sprays, Still there are a few of them that are coming back (admittedly MUCH fewer than where I started). Would you suggest to do anything different?


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## g-man

Don't pull them. Let them continue to die at the root.


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