# Treating Bermuda Infestation in Summer?



## Hoosier

My TTTF lawn has recently been invaded by Bermuda - fescue is taking a beating with the hot/dry weather, and at this point, I'm just trying to keep it alive through August. Next door neighbor has Bermuda, and blows his clippings into my lawn, so that certainly doesn't help, but I'm not going to have that conversation with him, as the relationship isn't great. I may run a mulch bed along that property line in the near future, but that aside for now...

In the spring, I sprayed Ornamec 170 along that property line a few times, 30 days apart, and that seems to be keeping the Bermuda at bay in that area, but at the expense of really stressing the fescue. Last treatment was late May, but due to the weather, I'm hesitant to apply any more.

I'm now seeing Bermuda pop up all over my lawn, and plan to rotate Ornamec/Triclopyr and Tenacity/Triclopyr (Pylex isn't an option for me at $450+ per bottle) every 30 days in the Fall/Spring, but it stresses me out to think that, left untreated, the Bermuda is going to continue spreading for the next couple months, leaving me with an even bigger infestation to try to get rid of starting in the fall.

I mow at 4 inches, but haven't mowed for over a week, and plan to let it go even more to get through the next couple months, along with hopefully shading out the Bermuda.

I'm thinking my 2 option are (both involve repair/overseeding in the fall):
1) Let it go until I can start treatments again, which means the Bermuda will spread even more over the next couple months, but the fescue won't take any more abuse than it already is from the weather
2) Resume monthly treatments to keep Bermuda from spreading further, knowing I'll probably kill the fescue in some areas in the process, maybe making it even easier for the Bermuda to spread when it recovers

Any thoughts on the best course of action? A complete kill isn't going to be an option for me in the fall, due to budget and the time commitment that will require.


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## ForsheeMS

I fought the same battle the last 4 years using Fusilade II/Triclopyr. I would start treatments in the affected areas as soon as I saw the slightest bit of color in the bermuda, usually late April. I would continue until the weather got to the point the fescue couldn't take it and stop. Even leaving the fescue at 4.5" to 5" tall it wouldn't stop the bermuda. Problem is with our weather the bermuda still has 2 to 3 months of ideal growing weather when it can't be treated. Finally broke down last August and nuked just the areas of bermuda and so far this year it hasn't come back. This year the house next door where the bermuda comes from is vacant and I have been treating their yard with the same combo. The bermuda is definitely hurting but so is the little bit of fescue that was there. This "test" basically has confirmed that summertime treatment in our climate is going to harm the fescue.

I am hoping this house will remain vacant through the rest of this year. If so I will nuke whatever is left of their lawn up to their driveway (about 30 feet) and reseed it this fall with some K31. If this works out I should be good as the rest of the lawns in my neighborhood are separated from mine by either asphalt or concrete.


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## social port

It is a really difficult problem.
From what I understand Pylex may be the safest route (for fescue), but most of us do not want to put $400 down at one time.
Given that Pylex is not an option, I like glyphosate. The only way to beat bermuda is to kill it--several times, more than likely. Fusilade etc. will help you control and maybe even kill some. But you risk your fescue every time that you apply it, and your payoff is uncertain with respect to Bermuda. With glyphosate, you are killing your fescue, but you are also killing the bermuda, even if you have to hit it 3-4 times. And, as far as I know, if it's in the process of dying, the plant cannot spread further.
That is my rather extreme strategy. I'm not saying it is smart, efficient, friendly, best practices etc etc. But in my experience, you cannot play around with bermuda.

One other strategy you might look into: Does triclopyr, by itself, prevent bermuda from spreading? If so, it might be safer to apply than the fusilade-triclopyr combo. I applied triclopyr two weeks or so ago. No damage to the fescue at all. It was hot, but wasn't this 90+ stretch that we've had recently.
If you could at least prevent the spread of bermuda with triclopyr, that would be an advantage in my opinion. You could focus on kill next spring, as soon as it is greening, as ForsheeMS mentioned. Keep in mind that the more it spreads, the bigger your problem, the harder the kill.

Not a very good 'feel-good' post, I know. I feel your pain.


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## social port

Also, given the two options you present, I would go with 2, with the understanding that you are very likely to kill your fescue, especially with this weather. If at all possible, try to apply when it is below 85 degrees. That might mean early morning applications for you. 
This route may, in theory, make it even easier for the bermuda to spread, but if your fescue is already comatose, then hitting that spreading bermuda again with your combo herbicide won't matter to much in terms of preserving your fescue.


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## gene_stl

My first two broadcast applications(Tenacity and Quinclorac) which I mainly intended to control crabgrass killed a couple of large areas of bermuda grass that I had not even noticed were there. I would remind everyone too that Pylex is also available as Armezon.

https://feedersgrain.com/search?q=armezon

This might be more feasible. Even Tenacity killed it dead in two applications at least in my lawn. And in some places where I may have only got it once it lit it up.

I do have a jug of Glyphosate for weeds and invasive honeysuckle but I just can' t bring myself to use it on my grass. I was able to murder a bunch of dallis grass and got a bunch of bermuda too. Since Ornamec is one of the agents recommended for dallis also I put a short dose of it in my dallis murder juice. It so far has not killed my kbg.

Here right now it is too hot to put anything on the lawn. I would consider eradicating areas where the bermuda is 100%. But right now I ain't goin outside. But between Pylex , Tenacity and Ornamec it seems like you could get rid of it without killing your lawn. Especially if you have tttf which Ornamec is labeled for. I do intend to go after the bermuda too because it makes my lawn look awful in the winter. I actually don't mind the way it looks while green. But like zoysia we are too far north here in st. louis.

I agree you should keep hammering it with the above mentioned agent. I notice in one of the turf management books I downloaded that Triclopyr is supposed to prevent bleaching. It doesn't say how this happens. Since you have tttf I would hit it hard with Ornamec after lighting it up with Tenacity.


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## Hoosier

Thank you all for the input, really helps. I'm going to go ahead and treat now with Ornamec and Triclopyr, since that's what I have. As mentioned, Ornamec worked for me as a preventative, so we'll see how that with Triclopyr works to suppress it. Just ordered Tenacity, so will mix that with Triclopyr for the next treatment, dropping the Triclopyr from the mix at the end of August, as I've read Triclopyr and new seed don't mix well. I'll probably even mix the Ornamec and Tenacity as the Bermuda starts prepping for dormancy and the fescue is perking up, because, well, why not?? We have rain and cooler temps in the forecast for the next week or so, so hopefully that holds, and gives the fescue some relief. I will report back on this thread over the next couple months in the event that other people have the same issue and come across this.

A couple follow-up questions. I know Pylex turns the Bermuda white... Does anyone know what and how soon after treating there will be a visible indication of the Ornamec/Triclopyr or Tenacity/Triclopyr treatment on the Bermuda? Also, as it seems I'm going to have to work this into my routine plan every year, would a pre-emergent have helped prevent this at all, or not so much due to it spreading with runners as opposed to seed? I did 1 app of Pre-M late April this year (thought I was buying the 1 with Barricade, but realized I didn't once I got it home), but plan to switch to two 1/2 rate apps of Prodiamine in Feb and March next year. Wondering if I should add a Dithiopyr app in late April/early May as well if that would help.


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## Hoosier

Also @gene_stl thanks for the note about Armezon. Checked the labels... Pylex = 29.7% topramezone. Armezon is 1.12% topramezone + 56.25% of something that looks like 2,4-D, $376 for 2.5 gallons at the site I saw it on. I wonder if this would have a similar effect on the Bermuda at a higher rate?

Just did a little more looking around and Impact (Amvac Chemical Corp) is also 29.7% topramezone, same as Pylex. A site called chemicaloutfitters has a 30oz bottle of Impact for $399... so, almost 4x the amount of product for less than most places sell the 8oz bottle of Pylex. It's still $400, and even 8oz would last most homeowners a few years at 1oz/A app rates, but maybe they sell this in a smaller quantity somewhere, or someone has a neighbor or 2 that would want to split a bottle of Impact 3 ways. Not sure why I haven't come across this before... same active ingredient and %, same effect, right? Maybe BASF is just a lot better at marketing their product?


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## ForsheeMS

From what I've experienced the Ornamec(Fluazifop)/Triclopyr combo gives the bermuda a pale color and causes brown spots to form on the leaves. If the app is heavy enough it will also do the same to the fescue. I wonder if 1/2 rate apps more often would still get the bermuda but be easier on the fescue?

I also wonder if you could push the bermuda growth into the fall with medium urea apps follow by the Onamec/Triclopyr apps to do more damage. I've always felt like herbicides work much better on healthy grass. Might be worth a try.

Pre-m might help prevent bermuda sprouting from seed but it won't do anything for existing roots or stolons that are already present.


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## gene_stl

Armezon is also 29.7 topramezone. It is only labeled for ag use.

@ForsheeMS 
I have only sprayed Ornamec twice. Tenacity two apps has killed and bleached all kinds of stuff in the lawn and helped me notice them. I used short rates of Ornamec since it isn't labeled for kbg. I am going to go full rate on the 100% stands of bermuda. I am going to do it while it is hot and the bermuda is alive. Fertilizing it does not sound like a bad idea. I have Ammonium Sulfate on hand but have not yet added it to any spray mixes because getting everything into the mix is enough trouble with multiple agents, sticker and dye. Even with power sprayers that's a lot of work. :evil:


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## social port

@gene_stl your post regarding Ornamec and KBG is the first that I've read suggesting that they can be safely paired. Any time that I have tried to determine whether Ornamec is safe for KBG, the question always ends with uncertainty.

You used the lowest suggested rate on KBG and it was spared?


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## gene_stl

I used about a one third rate just do add some of its AI because fluazifop is mentioned as being Dallisicidal. I knew I was taking a risk. It did not seem to harm the grass. The sulfentrazone which was also in the first mix seems to have hurt and bleached more the second time (no ornamec and no MSMA because I ran out and no Tenacity because I wanted to know what what going on and what might be doing what) but it had gotten MUCH hotter here. The rate was one third to one half recommended for tttf. The label rate for spot treating tttf is 10 oz for five gallons and I put in three or four fluid oz into five gallons.

I have an iris bed that is infested with ornamental _Paspalum_ that looks like giant dallis grass. I am going to try an over the top spray of Ornamec 170.

Since this morning I went out to look at the results and the sedges are completely toasted. Some of the Dallis grass is just wounded. Very tough stuff. Most of it is deceased though. I think.


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## social port

Thanks for posting, @gene_stl :thumbup: 
So, your rate may be safe for KBG, but I suppose we don't know if that safe rate would threaten the Bermuda.

It was the combination of quinclorac and tenacity that took out the Bermuda. Hmmm


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## gene_stl

Well don't put Ornamec on your kbg because I got away with it. Though look at my pictures under "killing sedges"
the more gentle two ingredient spray really bleached the lawn. The witches brew did not. But again we had a heat wave after the second spray.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3745&p=69606#p69606


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## Delmarva Keith

NashDad said:


> My TTTF lawn has recently been invaded by Bermuda - fescue is taking a beating with the hot/dry weather, and at this point, I'm just trying to keep it alive through August. Next door neighbor has Bermuda, and blows his clippings into my lawn, so that certainly doesn't help, but I'm not going to have that conversation with him, as the relationship isn't great. I may run a mulch bed along that property line in the near future, but that aside for now...
> 
> In the spring, I sprayed Ornamec 170 along that property line a few times, 30 days apart, and that seems to be keeping the Bermuda at bay in that area, but at the expense of really stressing the fescue. Last treatment was late May, but due to the weather, I'm hesitant to apply any more.
> 
> I'm now seeing Bermuda pop up all over my lawn, and plan to rotate Ornamec/Triclopyr and Tenacity/Triclopyr (Pylex isn't an option for me at $450+ per bottle) every 30 days in the Fall/Spring, but it stresses me out to think that, left untreated, the Bermuda is going to continue spreading for the next couple months, leaving me with an even bigger infestation to try to get rid of starting in the fall.
> 
> I mow at 4 inches, but haven't mowed for over a week, and plan to let it go even more to get through the next couple months, along with hopefully shading out the Bermuda.
> 
> I'm thinking my 2 option are (both involve repair/overseeding in the fall):
> 1) Let it go until I can start treatments again, which means the Bermuda will spread even more over the next couple months, but the fescue won't take any more abuse than it already is from the weather
> 2) Resume monthly treatments to keep Bermuda from spreading further, knowing I'll probably kill the fescue in some areas in the process, maybe making it even easier for the Bermuda to spread when it recovers
> 
> Any thoughts on the best course of action? A complete kill isn't going to be an option for me in the fall, due to budget and the time commitment that will require.


First off I'd say completely killing bermuda in fescue is impossible.  Never stopped me from trying. 
The philosophy is to try to get as much as possible during Spring green up when it's vulnerable and then again through the end of Summer as it tries to store carbs for winter dormancy. The colder your winter, the more winter kill you get.

The tenacity / triclopyr combo can do a pretty good job in Spring but it's never 100% and Bermuda recovery is like a zombie movie character. For me this year, I plan on starting tenacity / triclopyr late July (scheduling constraints with a party to be held at the site so I can't start earlier), a second app two weeks later around the first week of August and then two more apps of tenacity alone, the last one being immediately before seeding in early to mid September. That will give me more than 3 weeks post triclopyr for overseeding. All tenacity apps at the 4 oz. per acre rate so max per year not exceeded.

I've got nothing else up my sleeve as an alternative so that's what I suggest. The hope is that the constant banging it every two weeks as it goes towards dormancy, even at the lower rate of tenacity, is enough for a kill.

If that doesn't do it this round, it will be pylex next season. The Bermuda has got to go. :nod:

I can add that I had pretty good results in the past with a super aggressive dethatch and heavy overseed during Fall. It did completely eliminate the Bermuda in some spots, I assume due to shading during its Spring green up. Not anywhere near 100% for all spots though.


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## g-man

I read a report once of a 3way being fairly effective with bermuda. It was Tenacity, triclopyr and acclaim in 3 spring apps and 3 fall apps. They did go outside the yearly max for tenacity.


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## Hoosier

I went ahead and sprayed the other day, 3oz Ornamec and 1.5oz Triclopyr. This is the recommended amount on the bottles for 2,000sf, and I figure I treated around 2,500sf, maybe more, since I was spot spraying. So, it might have gotten a lighter dose, which I'm ok with. If no visible damage to the fescue beyond what it already has from the weather, I'm going to hit it with Tenacity/Triclopyr in 2-3 weeks, more if I'm seeing significant fescue damage that needs to recover. That will be more of a blanket app so I can monitor exactly how much product I'm using.

Haven't noticed anything yet, but it's only been a bit more than 36 hours since I sprayed.

@g-man I found something mentioning Acclaim as well (http://oak.ppws.vt.edu/~saskew/wiregrass_control.pdf), pretty good write-up. I don't know a thing about the different modes of action of these chemicals (maybe something I'll research when I have time), but assuming they all work a bit differently, it would certainly make sense that combining would give the best results.


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## Hoosier

Here's a picture of some Bermuda that I pulled from the yard almost exactly 48 hours after spraying Ornamec/Turflon. The one on the left was either missed (most likely) or not yet showing signs of being treated. The one on the far right took the most damage, and that appears to be because it was newer/less established than some of the rest of the Bermuda.

No visible signs of stress to the fescue, other than what was already apparent due to weather. From past experience, the Ornamec doesn't hurt the fescue with 1 treatment, but starts to show signs of stress with 2 treatments 30 days apart. So, as mentioned before, I'm going to go Tenacity/Turflon for the next treatment, then back to Ornamec (if there's enough time before Fall seeding), and will probably rotate back and forth between the two for each treatment, or maybe mix them in the spring when the Bermuda is greening but the fescue is growing like crazy.


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## gene_stl

> First off I'd say completely killing bermuda in fescue is impossible.  Never stopped me from trying.


As one researches this it becomes clear that killing things like bermuda and dallis and maybe even sedges are life styles. :lol: :lol:

I don't really understand why adding triclopyr results in LESS bleaching but that is what the turf scientists report. I think when you are just starting to beat a plot into submission using multiple agents makes sense and you have to be willing to accept some damage to the desirable turf. At least I am. Now it has cooled down and rained several times. Gonna go out again.
Tenacity and Triclopyr on the bermuda. Sulfentrazone and Sedgehammer on the Sedges (they are mostly isolated so the sulfentrazone won't matter if it burns a little although there is lots of moisture now and predicted cooler temps for a while may recover some of the previous heat stress and drought stress. Some other mix for the dallis.  

Interesting Bermuda control factoid. On the Tupersan label there is a short paragraph about bermuda grass stolon control in bentgrass putting greens. Unfortunately Gordon's locks the label pdf so you will need to look at yourself if interested. Tupersan is expensive and is a wettable granule. But it might be worth adding to a bermuda control witches brew. It is gentle and labeled for use on seedlings which it was the original for that. I was thinking of adding it to the dallis juice but it specifically mentions that dallis is not controlled. Then I noticed that it suppresses bermuda spreading. Doesn't kill it but should help with the suppression.


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## gene_stl

> BERMUDAGRASS SUPPRESSION INTO CREEPING BENTGRASS GREENS: Greens established with creeping bentgrass may be surrounded by
> bermudagrass collars and aprons. Mixtures of creeping bentgrass and bermudagrass result in poor putting surfaces. The selectivity of Tupersan
> Herbicide can suppress the bermudagrass encroachment without injury to the bentgrass.
> Tupersan Herbicide can be applied as a band treatment along the perimeter of the greens to suppress the stolon growth of the bermudagrass.
> Use ½ - 1 pound of Tupersan Herbicide per 1,000 sq. ft. and apply in a 8 - 12 inch band with a single nozzle sprayer. Schedule the initial application
> during March or April and continue with subsequent applications at the same application rate at 4 - 5 week intervals.


I managed to unlock the pdf. even though it's a horrible weed here in St. Louis it does look good and I can see how you could get used to it. It just all turns brown as soon as it gets cold. Same with Zoysia. I am going to light up my bermuda weed with Tenacity and then go after it with Pylex (which I don't have on hand yet) Ornamec spotting and Tupersan to damage the stolons. There is enough of it that the LawnZilla will look very bad.


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## Hoosier

Quick follow-up question on this... when applying these products for the intended purpose of suppressing bermuda, should these be applied as a foliar application or should they be watered in to the roots? I've seen in other topics, when applying Tenacity at seed down in order to get the weed pre-m benefit, that it's recommended to be watered in, but wasn't sure if that's the case with Bermuda suppression?

I'm thinking that since the fescue is still fairly thick (I'm keeping HOC at 4.25" during this heat, and letting it grow to 5-6" before cutting), a foliar application may not hit all of the bermuda that may be "hiding" lower to the ground, but obviously post-m weed products are not supposed to be watered in, so a little unsure for this purpose...


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## ForsheeMS

Foliar is what you want. I've found using a very fine mist will get really good coverage down to the crown even in thick grass. Only problem with that is you need to apply with no wind at all.

FYI I just found 2 spots of bermuda popping up in my lawn Monday. One spot only had about 3 visible shoots while the other had 8 to 10 shoots. Mixed up straight glypho and Fusilade II about 50/50 and carefully hand painted each shoot with the mixture. The next day the bermuda was visibly very sick and today it is a very dark brown color. I'm hoping this treatment will take out the roots too. It's kind of funny but I can spot 1 tiny shoot if bermuda in my fescue from a good 10 feet away. Going to be really vigilant the rest of the year since right now it's very manageable.


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## Hoosier

Ok gotcha, thanks. I wish I could say I was in the same boat... for me to paint every shoot of bermuda would probably require quitting my day job to do so! Hopefully that will be my treatment plan for this time next year though.


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## social port

gene_stl said:


> I am going to light up my bermuda weed with Tenacity and then go after it with Pylex


Don't you think that the KBG will get lit too?


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## social port

ForsheeMS said:


> Mixed up straight glypho and Fusilade II about 50/50 and carefully hand painted each shoot with the mixture. The next day the bermuda was visibly very sick and today it is a very dark brown color. I'm hoping this treatment will take out the roots too. It's kind of funny but I can spot 1 tiny shoot if bermuda in my fescue from a good 10 feet away.


I like your style :nod: 
You and @LawnNerd have made me reconsider my current approach of using glyphosate only, as the both of you are mixing glypho with fusilade.
I am really not very schooled about the mechanisms of action involved with these herbicides. My thought process in using glyphosate only is that I know the glypho is killing the bermuda. I figured that adding fusilade might discourage further growth of the bermuda, but not actually kill it. I assume that 3-4 applications of glyphosate will be needed.

With glyphosate only, if the bermuda recovers, then I hit it again until it is dead. I know that it will keep growing until it dies. Really, I want the bermuda to recover from applications as quickly as possible so that I can hit it again as soon as it begins to recover.
With the glypho fusilade mix, growth might stop, but the bermuda might escape death.

Does anyone happen to know if there is a miscalculation in my thinking?


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## gene_stl

> Don't you think that the KBG will get lit too?


I am resigned to the fact that my lawn is going to look funny for quite a while. The very sight of Dallis grass raises my blood pressure. Bermuda, not so much, right now, but it looked really awful all last winter. Everything brown. So I want to kill as much as I can before overseeding time.


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## Greendoc

social port said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mixed up straight glypho and Fusilade II about 50/50 and carefully hand painted each shoot with the mixture. The next day the bermuda was visibly very sick and today it is a very dark brown color. I'm hoping this treatment will take out the roots too. It's kind of funny but I can spot 1 tiny shoot if bermuda in my fescue from a good 10 feet away.
> 
> 
> 
> I like your style :nod:
> You and @LawnNerd have made me reconsider my current approach of using glyphosate only, as the both of you are mixing glypho with fusilade.
> I am really not very schooled about the mechanisms of action involved with these herbicides. My thought process in using glyphosate only is that I know the glypho is killing the bermuda. I figured that adding fusilade might discourage further growth of the bermuda, but not actually kill it. I assume that 3-4 applications of glyphosate will be needed.
> 
> With glyphosate only, if the bermuda recovers, then I hit it again until it is dead. I know that it will keep growing until it dies. Really, I want the bermuda to recover from applications as quickly as possible so that I can hit it again as soon as it begins to recover.
> With the glypho fusilade mix, growth might stop, but the bermuda might escape death.
> 
> Does anyone happen to know if there is a miscalculation in my thinking?
Click to expand...

Glyphosate only goes so deep within the Bermuda. If I were doing a renovation and there was only grass to eradicate, I might do the kill with Fusilade only. Here's why. Glyphosate starts to dry out and kill Bermuda in 7 days. Fusilade takes 2-3 weeks before that is even apparent. In that 2-3 weeks, the Fusilade has time to travel throught the roots and stolons.


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## j4c11

I've given up on trying to outright kill it. My new plan is to simply spray it with regular old broadleaf herbicide which is safe for cool season grasses but will keep Bermuda in a sickly state for a while. It's not going to die, but it's not going to do much growing either.


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## social port

j4c11 said:


> I've given up on trying to outright kill it. My new plan is to simply spray it with regular old broadleaf herbicide which is safe for cool season grasses but will keep Bermuda in a sickly state for a while. It's not going to die, but it's not going to do much growing either.


For some reason, I can never get your @mention tag to work.
Didn't you also find that a certain fungicide had an impact on the spread of bermuda?


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## social port

Greendoc said:


> Glyphosate only goes so deep within the Bermuda. If I were doing a renovation and there was only grass to eradicate, I might do the kill with Fusilade only. Here's why. Glyphosate starts to dry out and kill Bermuda in 7 days. Fusilade takes 2-3 weeks before that is even apparent. In that 2-3 weeks, the Fusilade has time to travel throught the roots and stolons.


Thanks for insight here. So am I correct to think that glyphosate does not stay active long enough to reach bermuda roots?


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## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> . . . a certain fungicide had an impact on the spread of bermuda?


Not sure if this is what you're referring to but the bermuda expert guys say propiconizole will knock back closely mowed bermuda and have warned against using it there. That may be but It definitely doesn't touch any bermuda infestation in cool season turf that I've ever seen.


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## social port

@Delmarva Keith 
Yes, propiconizole is the one. Here is part of the post


j4c11 said:


> This year, my Bermuda is not growing quite as vigorously. It is definitely there, but in years past it would start growing on top of the grass, over the cement etc. This is year it is very compact and slow growing. I remember one of the members here saying Bermuda is sensitive to propiconazole, and did a little more research into it. It turns out that DMI fungicides have a growth regulation effect on Bermuda, and I spray trinexapac and propiconazole together every 2 weeks. Thus it is getting a double whammy of PGR and it seems to be slowing it down significantly.
> 
> I currently apply 1oz of propiconazole per K every 2 weeks as part of my preventive fungicide program, but I'm going to raise that to 1.5 and see if it will affect it even more.
> 
> Just another option to keep Bermuda under control in cool season lawns.


https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=750


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## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> @Delmarva Keith
> Yes, propiconizole is the one. Here is part of the post
> 
> 
> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> This year, my Bermuda is not growing quite as vigorously. It is definitely there, but in years past it would start growing on top of the grass, over the cement etc. This is year it is very compact and slow growing. I remember one of the members here saying Bermuda is sensitive to propiconazole, and did a little more research into it. It turns out that DMI fungicides have a growth regulation effect on Bermuda, and I spray trinexapac and propiconazole together every 2 weeks. Thus it is getting a double whammy of PGR and it seems to be slowing it down significantly.
> 
> I currently apply 1oz of propiconazole per K every 2 weeks as part of my preventive fungicide program, but I'm going to raise that to 1.5 and see if it will affect it even more.
> 
> Just another option to keep Bermuda under control in cool season lawns.
> 
> 
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=750
Click to expand...

That is definitely good to know. If enough propiconizole could slow the growth then, in theory at least, high cut fescue might shade out a good bit of stunted bermuda. OTOH, bermuda is like one of those trick candles - just when you're sure it's out, it flames back up as if nothing happened. :lol:

I've never noticed a difference in any bermuda infestation but I suppose I'm not exactly watching it's growth rate day to day either.


----------



## Movingshrub

"Bermudagrass (Cynodon dactylon) Control in Tall Fescue (Festuca arundinacea) and Zoysiagrass (Zoysia spp.) Turf"
http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/17/W237.pdf

You cool season guys need to make the article's information part of a sticky. This issue comes up regularly.


----------



## ForsheeMS

Movingshrub said:


> "Bermudagrass (Cynodon dactylon) Control in Tall Fescue (Festuca arundinacea) and Zoysiagrass (Zoysia spp.) Turf"
> http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/17/W237.pdf
> 
> You cool season guys need to make the article's information part of a sticky. This issue comes up regularly.


That's an excellent article however it really doesn't work for us folks here in the transition zone. The reason is bermuda here begins waking up in late April to early May. By the middle of June our temps are normally to the point of stressing TTTF and this continues through mid September. None of the herbicides listed can be used when the TTTF is stressed or damage will occur. What this leaves us is about 3 months of prime bermuda growing weather that we can't treat. Add to that, an overseed is needed in mid to late September when the weather is cooling down enough to begin treatment again. Now that you have new seedlings you can't treat until late October at best and now the bermuda is in the process of going dormant.

Unfortunately for us there is no good treatment options that don't kill off the desired turf grass. Last year I killed off a couple sections of my lawn due to bermuda infestations. This year I am constantly searching for the nasty weed to pop up and spot treating immediately. I'm hoping to stay far enough ahead of it that it doesn't get out of hand.


----------



## ForsheeMS

> Glyphosate only goes so deep within the Bermuda. If I were doing a renovation and there was only grass to eradicate, I might do the kill with Fusilade only. Here's why. Glyphosate starts to dry out and kill Bermuda in 7 days. Fusilade takes 2-3 weeks before that is even apparent. In that 2-3 weeks, the Fusilade has time to travel throught the roots and stolons.


This make sense. Makes me wonder if I should use a Fusilade/Triclopyr mix and leave out the glypho. With some luck I won't have an opportunity to try this method but should more pop up I will give it a try.

One thing that is really frustrating, the two spots of bermuda that popped up are in extremely thick TTTF. Outside of my first cut back in February at 3.5" I have been at 4" since mid April. Turf is so thick you really have to work hard to see soil. I've also been doing propiconazole apps every 2 weeks since mid April and it's supposed to be hard on bermuda.

I can guarantee you this, those that end up in hell will be required to mow the bermuda that grows there. :twisted:


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Movingshrub said:


> "Bermudagrass (Cynodon dactylon) Control in Tall Fescue (Festuca arundinacea) and Zoysiagrass (Zoysia spp.) Turf"
> http://www.tennesseeturfgrassweeds.org/Lists/Fact%20Sheets/Attachments/17/W237.pdf
> 
> You cool season guys need to make the article's information part of a sticky. This issue comes up regularly.


If it were only that simple. It's not. Not at all.  
The recommended programs are about as likely to wipe out the fescue as the bermuda.


----------



## Movingshrub

@ForsheeMS
@Delmarva Keith
Understood. I'm not growing Tall Fescue but at least wanted to pass the information along.

My assumption is that you're basically in a situation where you are going to have to endure having a suboptimal lawn, which may involve bare spots, while trying to remove the Bermuda, and/or you're going to try to seed during the wrong part of the year; none of the options are appealing but you've got to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette.

I would think a pylex + triclopyr mix would be a serious consideration. If you don't want to pay that money, triclopyr and fusillade and risk the damage. Otherwise, learn to love your future bermudagrass lawn.


----------



## social port

Honestly, I think members get better information -- or at least a more realistic perspective on courses of action -- from other forum members. I can't remember reading any advice on bermuda control on TLF that I disagreed with. I suppose we could pool our shared wisdom, knowledge, and experience, but that might turn into a thick, and possibly confusing, sticky.

Besides, I like that the bermuda question comes up so often. It gives me a chance to learn more, see what other members are doing, and have discussion. @alpine0000 may start using pylex, and I am really curious to see how that goes.

There are times, when I am reminded that two heads are often better than one, that I wonder what would happen if a group of forum members worked as a team to carefully construct the perfect cocktail for bermuda. I suppose that there are plenty of scientists doing just that; but I don't think that is a reason to not try it ourselves.



ForsheeMS said:


> One thing that is really frustrating, the two spots of bermuda that popped up are in extremely thick TTTF. Outside of my first cut back in February at 3.5" I have been at 4" since mid April. Turf is so thick you really have to work hard to see soil.


Nearly the same for me. I've been at 4 and 4.5" since March. And my turf is so thick that I don't see the bermuda until it is popping up out of the canopy. I usually have to do some fescue jiu-jitsu to get a look at the soil.


----------



## social port

so...am I wasting my time with glyphosate?
Last year's run with Ornamec was certainly less than ideal.


----------



## ForsheeMS

Movingshrub said:


> My assumption is that you're basically in a situation where you are going to have to endure having a suboptimal lawn, which may involve bare spots, while trying to remove the Bermuda, and/or you're going to try to seed during the wrong part of the year; none of the options are appealing but you've got to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette.
> 
> I would think a pylex + triclopyr mix would be a serious consideration. If you don't want to pay that money, triclopyr and fusillade and risk the damage. Otherwise, learn to love your future bermudagrass lawn.


Your assumption is pretty much on target. Since my reno in 2013 I have tried a little bit of everything and it's all been a learning process. I've made mistakes, some really big mistakes too but I'm definitely getting there. Last year was the best one yet and I'm hoping to continue on that success this year. Giving in and going with bermuda would leave me with at least 5 months of brown where as TTTF leaves me with about 3 months of sub-optimal lawn so there's a trade off. I love having a green lawn through the winter months so it's worth it for me.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Movingshrub said:


> Understood. I'm not growing Tall Fescue but at least wanted to pass the information along.
> 
> My assumption is that you're basically in a situation where you are going to have to endure having a suboptimal lawn, which may involve bare spots, while trying to remove the Bermuda, and/or you're going to try to seed during the wrong part of the year; none of the options are appealing but you've got to crack a few eggs if you want to make an omelette.
> 
> I would think a pylex + triclopyr mix would be a serious consideration. If you don't want to pay that money, triclopyr and fusillade and risk the damage. Otherwise, learn to love your future bermudagrass lawn.


Yes, I should have said thank you for the info. More info is better. I didn't intend to be snarky. The only point I was getting at is there's a reason why this comes up all the time and what works in one place ends up not working in another. Bermuda is just one tough customer to get rid of in a cool season lawn.

The options (other than gly mixes or spendy pylex) basically involve trying to hurt the bermuda more than the fescue, but they usually end up hurting both and it's often enough the bermuda that fully recovers the next year. I'd say fungus diseases are my biggest moby **** type of battle but bermuda runs a close second when it comes to returning for more unwinnable battles. :mrgreen:

Pylex or pylex plus triclopyr are indeed likely the best way to deal with it. But I have my tenacity plus triclopyr harpoon at the ready and perhaps even fusillade II as my first mate, row boys, row faster, I'll chase that bermuda down perdition's flames before I give up, chase until it spouts black blood and rolls fin out . . .


----------



## ForsheeMS

@Movingshrub

I agree with Keith, it's very good info. I can see that plan working in a climate where mid 80's are your max temps. I know the Fusilade/Triclopyr combo works and if I could drop apps from April to October my bermuda battle would be won. Unfortunately when the temps hit 90's+ most selective herbicides suddenly become closer to non-selective.


----------



## Movingshrub

Understood! Also, no snark taken. Good luck addressing the issue. Personally I'd just go scorched earth one season and try to get it over with.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Reno would be the best. Once you have all TTTF or KBG, what happens when the stray bermuda from the neighbor's starts creeping in?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Movingshrub said:


> Understood! Also, no snark taken. Good luck addressing the issue. Personally I'd just go scorched earth one season and try to get it over with.


That is also likely the best idea.

What ends up happening is like in some bad relationships. The turf just looks so good and if I could just change this one thing that I really hate, it would all be perfect and happily ever after. In the end, and in hindsite, a clean break would have been a lot less expensive and aggravating. :lol:


----------



## Movingshrub

ForsheeMS said:


> I love having a green lawn through the winter months so it's worth it for me.


This reason is why I keep considering overseeding my Bermuda with p.rye grass. However, I do like the additional free time I gain when the Bermuda goes dormant. I love the ability of Bermuda to recover from wear and tear, but cutting every three days for several months can get old, or every five days with PGR.


----------



## g-man

I dont like bermuda, but you could overseed PRG into bermuda over the winter.


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## Greendoc

What is better tolerated by cool season turf is Acclaim Extra(Fenoxaprop-P). However, cost per 1000 sq ft is substantially higher. It is also labeled for general grassy weed control in cool season turf. Prices I see are like $90 for a 16 oz bottle. Use rate is 20-39 oz per acre.


----------



## Greendoc

social port said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glyphosate only goes so deep within the Bermuda. If I were doing a renovation and there was only grass to eradicate, I might do the kill with Fusilade only. Here's why. Glyphosate starts to dry out and kill Bermuda in 7 days. Fusilade takes 2-3 weeks before that is even apparent. In that 2-3 weeks, the Fusilade has time to travel throught the roots and stolons.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for insight here. So am I correct to think that glyphosate does not stay active long enough to reach bermuda roots?
Click to expand...

It kills the leaves before translocating deep into the root system. Does the same thing if sprayed on Purple Nutsedge. Sometimes a kill that takes 3-4 weeks to happen is worth it.


----------



## g-man

^ a slow painful dead to bermuda. Make it suffer! :thumbsup:


----------



## Greendoc

To give everyone an idea, I deal with a herbicide that works even faster than Glyphosate. Diquat. This will turn Bermuda or Zoysia brown and crispy in 12 hours. However, those grasses grow back in about 2-3 weeks from such a treatment. Even though Diquat will destroy your liver and kidneys in a week if something goes wrong while you are handling it.


----------



## gene_stl

Fenoxaprop and Pylex are the next things on my schopping list. I am going to see if the ag guys have it. Wednesday I got a gallon jug of Remedy Triclopyr Butyl Ester. Like Tupersan Triclopyr isn't potent so you have to use a lot. I guess the same applies to Acclaim.

I like the notion above about bad relationships. This is exactly what I am doing. But LawnZilla is just too f big to renovate. I probably have spent enough on herbicides already and there is not the slightest sign of slowdown. (Gallon of Triclopyr=$75)

Armezon topremazone is $406 for 32 oz and has the same concentration as Pylex.

Diquats cousin Paraquat used to be the helicopter sprayed herbicide of choice for the DEA. I think they hoped it would give the potheads cancer and make them die.


----------



## Greendoc

Not cancer. Diquat takes out kidneys and liver. Paraquat is the only chemical I know of that specifically goes to the lungs and destroys lung tissue. DEA was hoping that there would be enough carried over in the weed to cause instant fatalities. Does not work that way. Paraquat and Diquat are so reactive with plant tissues that there is almost none left in original form once the burndown occurs. In Hawaii, Paraquat is under special monitoring by the DOA. For the longest time, it has been used to murder other people's dogs here. Hate your neighbor's dog? Feed the dog a burger with a teaspoon of Paraquat. Want to steal something from a property with guard dogs? Throw over a poisoned burger a week before the hit.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> ^ a slow painful dead to bermuda. Make it suffer! :thumbsup:


I was wondering when you would express this sentiment.


----------



## gene_stl

I do stand corrected about paraquat. I had a friend who was a great genius (possibly the best classical guitarist on the planet) who was a heavy pot smoker and in the late seventies when I knew him best he used to rail on and on about paraquat. I was not that involved myself.  My friend did not end well health-wise.

I am in favor of slow and painful death for all grassy weeds. Although I have to admit the first time I went out with my Sprayer Mate with Q4+ with extra quinclorac there was a big prostate grassy weed about a foot wide. It was not quite dead yet a few days after I sprayed. It was too early to be crabgrass. It was probably something perennial or biannual. When my eyes fell onto it I actually felt a nanosecond of pity because it looked so bad. Then I thought, "This shit really works!" :lol:


----------



## social port

Greendoc said:


> It kills the leaves before translocating deep into the root system. Does the same thing if sprayed on Purple Nutsedge. Sometimes a kill that takes 3-4 weeks to happen is worth it.


I realize that I am probably knocking on a door that leads to nowhere, but...
In the same way that humic acid helps to increase a plant's access to nutrients in the soil by 'unlocking' them, is there a product that helps plants to absorb herbicide at a faster rate and/or more deeply, perhaps even getting to the root system more quickly?


----------



## Greendoc

None that I can think of. My chemical wish list includes Glyphosate that is not formulated as a water based salt. Right now, Glyphosate is formulated as either an amine, Potassium or Ammonium salt. I want it as an oil soluble ester. Much like how 2,4-D and Triclopyr is available as an oil soluble ester. The water based formulation hinders absorption. But makes it safer. I do not want to imagine what would happen if Glyphosate were volatile. :shock:


----------



## social port

@gene_stl My memory may mislead me, but I seem to recall that Pylex was available for about $400 at one time. The price has seemed to go up, though, with a price on Amazon pushing $550--and that's for 8 fl. oz :lol: . The Armezon topremazone is a steal by comparison


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## Greendoc

Pylex is still $450 for me. It is an agency priced product from my vendors. Retailers selling to consumers can do what they want price wise.


----------



## social port

Greendoc said:


> None that I can think of. My chemical wish list includes Glyphosate that is not formulated as a water based salt. Right now, Glyphosate is formulated as either an amine, Potassium or Ammonium salt. I want it as an oil soluble ester. Much like how 2,4-D and Triclopyr is available as an oil soluble ester. The water based formulation hinders absorption. But makes it safer. I do not want to imagine what would happen if Glyphosate were volatile. :shock:


So...I am way out of my range of knowledge here, but can't fulvic acid be absorbed by leaf tissue? If so, if fulvic acid is mixed with gylphosate, might it lead to quicker absorption of the glyphosate by the bermuda 'tissue'?


----------



## Greendoc

Can, however it is competing with the Glyphosate for absorption. Any supposed benefits are from how Fulvic acid concentrates lower pH. I use Ammonium Sulfate, which lowers pH to 5 and ties up Calcium. The Calcium salt of Glyphosate which is readily formed if hard water is used to make up the spray, is not absorbed by plants. Another product I use is called LI 700. This is a non ionic surfactant with Lecithin and an acidifying agent. I also spend the money on a good Glyphosate. If it is my time and money if an application does not work, I use RoundUp Pro Max. Not some $40 for 21/2 gallon equivalent.


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## social port

Well, if the fulvic and glyphosate are competing for absorption, then that defeats the purpose. I was holding out hope that fulvic could be used as a carrier for the glyphosate. 
Thank you for entertaining my line of thought.


----------



## Greendoc

When people say that fulvic enhances a Gly or broadleaf 2,4-D application, that is mostly because those chemicals work best when spray water pH is lower than 6. Fulvic does that. The LI 700 I mentioned also does that without competing with the herbicides.


----------



## social port

Would the Li 700 increase the percentage of glyphosate absorbed by the roots? 
I'm also still trying to figure out if it is sold to homeowners.


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## Greendoc

It helps what the leaves take in. But the nature of Glyphosate is that it has limited translocation in the root system. LI 700 is sold by Agrium. That is an outlet to farmers and the trade only.


----------



## social port

I've found a source that looks like they might sell it, but I suppose I don't need it anyway. Like a king wants a head, I want the roots of the Bermuda DOA.
I guess that it is time to look at an alternative herbicide.


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## Greendoc

The 4 teaspoon per gallon rate of Fusilade labeled for non selective destruction of grasses in landscaped areas is where I would go.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> It kills the leaves before translocating deep into the root system. Does the same thing if sprayed on Purple Nutsedge. Sometimes a kill that takes 3-4 weeks to happen is worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that I am probably knocking on a door that leads to nowhere, but...
> In the same way that humic acid helps to increase a plant's access to nutrients in the soil by 'unlocking' them, is there a product that helps plants to absorb herbicide at a faster rate and/or more deeply, perhaps even getting to the root system more quickly?
Click to expand...

Yes. Water prior to application to get the plant growing and, depending on the herbicide, add amonium sulfate to the spray mix. Ammonium sulfate does at least two things: increases herbicide uptake and it's hygroscopic so it will tend to continue to absorb humidity and delay crystalization of the hebicide on the plant leaves. It also fixates with calcium and other minerals in the water to prevent mineral antagonism of chelating chemicals like gly. Like anything else, when applying selectives always test to avoid undesirable injury to non-target plants.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

You could add an organosilicone. You may just burn off the leaves though...


----------



## social port

Delmarva Keith said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> It kills the leaves before translocating deep into the root system. Does the same thing if sprayed on Purple Nutsedge. Sometimes a kill that takes 3-4 weeks to happen is worth it.
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that I am probably knocking on a door that leads to nowhere, but...
> In the same way that humic acid helps to increase a plant's access to nutrients in the soil by 'unlocking' them, is there a product that helps plants to absorb herbicide at a faster rate and/or more deeply, perhaps even getting to the root system more quickly?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. Water prior to application to get the plant growing and, depending on the herbicide, add amonium sulfate to the spray mix. Ammonium sulfate does at least two things: increases herbicide uptake and it's hygroscopic so it will tend to continue to absorb humidity and delay crystalization of the hebicide on the plant leaves. It also fixates with calcium and other minerals in the water to prevent mineral antagonism of chelating chemicals like gly. Like anything else, when applying selectives always test to avoid undesirable injury to non-target plants.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. 
My goal is to get the glyphosate to be absorbed into the root system. Do you think that adding the AS would make absorption by the roots more likely?


----------



## social port

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> You could add an organosilicone. You may just burn off the leaves though...


Something like this? 
https://www.solutionsstores.com/alligare-performance-wetter?CAWELAID=120308880000000268&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgYCEhs_72wIVlVuGCh2uiA1BEAQYASABEgICIPD_BwE
I did not know that the world of surfactants was this varied.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I realize that I am probably knocking on a door that leads to nowhere, but...
> In the same way that humic acid helps to increase a plant's access to nutrients in the soil by 'unlocking' them, is there a product that helps plants to absorb herbicide at a faster rate and/or more deeply, perhaps even getting to the root system more quickly?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Water prior to application to get the plant growing and, depending on the herbicide, add amonium sulfate to the spray mix. Ammonium sulfate does at least two things: increases herbicide uptake and it's hygroscopic so it will tend to continue to absorb humidity and delay crystalization of the hebicide on the plant leaves. It also fixates with calcium and other minerals in the water to prevent mineral antagonism of chelating chemicals like gly. Like anything else, when applying selectives always test to avoid undesirable injury to non-target plants.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion.
> My goal is to get the glyphosate to be absorbed into the root system. Do you think that adding the AS would make absorption by the roots more likely?
Click to expand...

Yes. A while back I had to kill a pretty dense stand of upland phragmites in early June. Everyone told me it could not be done, wait untill late Summer, blah, blah. Mix was Rodeo, ammonium sulfate and aquatic labeled NIS which wiped them out permanently. If it will kill a dense stand of phragmites, it will kill bermuda. Use the highest label rate of whatever gly you use and 2 or 3 oz by weight of AS per gallon. As a precaution, keep watering the (hopefully dead) bermuda and hit anything that regrows as often as necessary.

Gly is a chelating agent so any minerals in the water are fixated with gly and it's effectiveness decreases. AS will fixate with those minerals and take them out of action. So mix the AS into the water first, then add the gly. Plus, when the AS hits the foliage, the plant thinks it's at an ice cream buffet. The AS also delays crystallization of the gly so the ice cream at the buffet keeps getting refilled.


----------



## social port

@Delmarva Keith wonderful! Thank you for the plan. I'm going to begin using this solution.


----------



## social port

I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.
If the fusillade is absorbed into the root system
And the glyphosate is absorbed into the root system (courtesy of AS)
Would this constitute two mechanisms of action in damaging the root system? Perhaps similar to, as I understand it, the way one uses two fungicides that have different mechanisms of action to achieve better control of the disease.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.
> If the fusillade is absorbed into the root system
> And the glyphosate is absorbed into the root system (courtesy of AS)
> Would this constitute two mechanisms of action in damaging the root system? Perhaps similar to, as I understand it, the way one uses two fungicides that have different mechanisms of action to achieve better control of the disease.


I think they're both systemic so as long as you get enough of either to the growing points, the plant dies. Get both translocated, even better, the plant dies. Modes of action relates more to the issue of suseptabilty so two modes of action would wipe out a particular plant that may have some resistance to one or the other. I think it certainly can't hurt to go with both like fungicides as you suggest.

@Greendoc has more experience with fusillade than I do.


----------



## social port

Thanks @Delmarva Keith 
The Bermuda won't know what hit it :thumbup:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

social port said:


> I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.
> If the fusillade is absorbed into the root system
> And the glyphosate is absorbed into the root system (courtesy of AS)
> Would this constitute two mechanisms of action in damaging the root system? Perhaps similar to, as I understand it, the way one uses two fungicides that have different mechanisms of action to achieve better control of the disease.


That's exactly right. 2 modes of action! More complete kill and better results. Glyphosate (group 9) is an amino acid synthesis inhibitor and fluazifop (group 1) is a lipid synthesis inhibitor. Funny how similar all this stuff is...


----------



## social port

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.
> If the fusillade is absorbed into the root system
> And the glyphosate is absorbed into the root system (courtesy of AS)
> Would this constitute two mechanisms of action in damaging the root system? Perhaps similar to, as I understand it, the way one uses two fungicides that have different mechanisms of action to achieve better control of the disease.
> 
> 
> 
> That's exactly right. 2 modes of action! More complete kill and better results. Glyphosate (group 9) is an amino acid synthesis inhibitor and fluazifop (group 1) is a lipid synthesis inhibitor. Funny how similar all this stuff is...
Click to expand...

 I suppose it is reasonable to ask about the point at which multiple modes of action begin interfering with one another - or at least producing diminishing returns? 
Would the addition of triclopyr be helpful?
It is easy to imagine fusillade on day 1, triclopyr on day 2, and glyphosate (mixed with AS) on day 3.

If not triclopyr, then is there something else ? Tenacity, acclaim?

Of course the idea is to be as aggressive as possible to kill the roots.


----------



## gene_stl

Don't forget to try Tupersan to suppress the stolons. I haven't tried it yet but I have a four lb bag of wp right here.
I will report. The weather is only going to peak at 90 tomorrow so I am going to go out and spot some things.


----------



## social port

@gene_stl Simply keeping up with mowing and the normal span of weeds is a full plate when you are tending 50k.
I can't even imagine caring for 50k AND dealing with bermuda threats. You are a Warrior.


----------



## Greendoc

social port said:


> I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.
> If the fusillade is absorbed into the root system
> And the glyphosate is absorbed into the root system (courtesy of AS)
> Would this constitute two mechanisms of action in damaging the root system? Perhaps similar to, as I understand it, the way one uses two fungicides that have different mechanisms of action to achieve better control of the disease.


Does not hurt. Fusilade is another product that works better when the water is treated for hard water minerals. Like @Delmarva Keith says, it also fools plants into taking up what it normally would not. Other people have told me about mixing Miracle Gro plant food with RoundUp for the same reason. Fooling the weed into taking in things.

If I have a hard to kill weed, I want as many compatible modes of action in place. Exception to this is usage of Diquat. Diquat is not only hazardous to handle, it is also antagonistic to herbicide activity. Diquat burns off leaves before they absorb and translocate other herbicides. QuickPro is a combination of Diquat and Glyphosate. I have had many instances of zombie weeds coming back from the dead using Quick Pro. Especially grasses such as Zoysia and Bermuda. I have been writing to @Movingshrub about the kill process for his lawn. He has Zoysia and Bermuda he wants gone. My suggested mix includes Glyphosate, Tenacity, and Fusilade. Why Tenacity? It is very toxic to Zoysia. But, it works slowly enough that it does not interfere with the Fusilade and Glyphosate.


----------



## social port

Greendoc said:


> If I have a hard to kill weed, I want as many compatible modes of action in place.


Determining what is compatible vs interfering is difficult without a background in chemistry; and even then, it's probably dangerous without a good deal of experience :lol:



Greendoc said:


> I have been writing to @Movingshrub about the kill process for his lawn.


Thanks for the feedback here. Are you referring to @Movingshrub 's reno thread? https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=421&start=200
I'll definitely read through that.

Is it best to make separate applications of the herbicides, e.g., glyphosate plus AS, fusilade, maybe triclopyr or tenacity (say, a different one each day), or can one safely mix a single cocktail? (No plans to use Diquat)


----------



## Greendoc

You can put that mix all together. Leave out the Diquat. Then again I do not want to see anyone on the forum dealing with Diquat. That product takes a mind for safety and careful handling not even pro applicators have.

Yes, that one. I developed the kill mix based on years of observation of how weeds reacted to being treated with Glyphosate and what grew back through a reno. Certain weeds like warm season grasses were not being killed by a single or double Glyphosate application. They grew back through new sod or else in a sprigged area. That was not acceptable given how sprigs are almost like seed. No spraying for at least a month.


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## social port

Thank you @Greendoc I'm going to read that thread, and then I'm going to help some fescue reclaim territory--hopefully on a more permanent basis :thumbup:


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## Greendoc

The other selective mix I heard about for Bermuda in Fescue was Acclaim Tenacity and Triclopyr. A lawn on this would also not need crabgrass control or broadleaf weed controls treatments other than the usual spring pre. Fusilade is not my first choice for selective Bermuda control if Acclaim will work. As a wipe out during reno, sure. In desirable turf, Acclaim. Even though it is expensive.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

If anyone is curious, you can read this study.


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## Delmarva Keith

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If anyone is curious, you can read this study.


That's a good one! Got it bookmarked.


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## Movingshrub

social port said:


> I did not know that the world of surfactants was this varied.


Prepare for your mind to be blown

https://ppp.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/PPP-115.pdf



social port said:


> I wonder if the addition of AS would be beneficial for those who are using a glyphosate-fusillade mix.


From what I have read, it looks we should be using soluable AS in almost every herbicide mixture. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3799

I think there are a few parts to this question.
1. Are the chemicals physically going to play nice together in the spray tank? Hence why almost every label recommends a jar test.
2. Are the chemicals going to prevent one another from working well? I *think* there's a combo like, 2,4-D and glyphosate that don't work well together for some reason and results in a suboptiomal kill versus spraying seperately; don't hold me to that example.
3. Are the adjuvants, per the label's recommendation, going to play well with the entire mixture? This question is the area that I've been trying to learn about more recently. Glyphosate doesn't play well with MSO. Fusilade seems to suggest MSO or COC when trying to maximize effectiveness (don't use this in your situation) for a renovation, but in most other cases NIS is suggested.

Keep in my mind, this mixture was for a complete renovation kill of common bermuda, hybrid bermuda, and zoysia.

Idealy, I would have sprayed ammonium sulfate + glyphosate, Fusilade II (fluazifop), triclopyr, and either Pylex, Sencor, or Tenacity.

The glyphosate, fluazifop, and triclopyr for the bermudagrass.
The Sencor, Tenacity, and Pylex for the zoysiagrass. 
The added benefit would be that the Tenacity and pylex go after the bermuda as well and the glyphosate goes after everything.
This mixture was more money than I wanted to spend.

I renovated my sidewalk using glyphosate, Tenacity, fluazifop, and NIS. My plan for the remaing 4500sqft area is AS + glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, and either triclopyr ester + NIS, or if I don't use a triclopyr at all or use triclopyr amine, I am leaning toward using a HSOC (High surfactant oil concentrate). My only concern is harming shrubs near by (if only they would move) and a dogwood I'm trying to keep, so I'm hesitant to spray triclopyr in hot weather. I'm afraid if I spray duing hot weather the triclopyr will volitize and if it I spray it over the dogwood's root zone, that I'll end up harming it.



social port said:


> Determining what is compatible vs interfering is difficult without a background in chemistry; and even then, it's probably dangerous without a good deal of experience


You nailed it. The funny thing - I was a chemistry nerd in school and this stuff makes my head hurt.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Delmarva Keith said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone is curious, you can read this study.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a good one! Got it bookmarked.
Click to expand...

I liked that they showed the efficacy by % and damage to desired turf by % of each product and combos of the products. Too bad they didn't try additional products like pylex and mesotrione.


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## gene_stl

Thank you social port. I have to admit that my wife and I look at each other frequently and say "what were we thinking ?" when we bought this huge place. But she has been 100% supportive which helps and I have a son at home who is helping too. And we love the place too. It is roomy and nice and a great deal too.

I wanted to go out and spray today and I opened a door and the air was so damp I just thought ewe not going out there. Hope I don't get a bunch of fungus. Of course if I do I will just spray the shit out of it. :

I never did much spraying before. Used to use granular stuff on relatively much smaller lawns. So I had the experience of fertilizer and weed killer working. LawnZilla already looks a lot better. I want to have all the weedy species deceased by overseed time. And I have spent so much on chemicals and spray gear that I have to "put my mouth where my money is".
Tenacity is so kewl

The main antagonism which moving shrub was thinking of is that when you mix 2,4,D type broadleaf herbicides with grassy ones the grassy herbicides become less effective. The broadleaf is unchanged. (antagonism)


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## social port

Movingshrub said:


> Prepare for your mind to be blown
> 
> https://ppp.purdue.edu/wp-content/uploa ... PP-115.pdf


 :lol: That's nearly insane. Where to even begin.



Movingshrub said:


> From what I have read, it looks we should be using soluable AS in almost every herbicide mixture.
> viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3799


I see your point. That's a very good thread. I remember reading through it earlier, but I didn't stick around for the end. I should have.


Movingshrub said:


> 1. Are the chemicals physically going to play nice together in the spray tank? Hence why almost every label recommends a jar test.
> 2. Are the chemicals going to prevent one another from working well? I *think* there's a combo like, 2,4-D and glyphosate that don't work well together for some reason and results in a suboptiomal kill versus spraying seperately; don't hold me to that example.
> 3. Are the adjuvants, per the label's recommendation, going to play well with the entire mixture? This question is the area that I've been trying to learn about more recently. Glyphosate doesn't play well with MSO. Fusilade seems to suggest MSO or COC when trying to maximize effectiveness (don't use this in your situation) for a renovation, but in most other cases NIS is suggested.


Very nice layout. I was thinking in terms of 1 and 2, but now I see the need for 3. I think I will be good with NIS.



Movingshrub said:


> I renovated my sidewalk using glyphosate, Tenacity, fluazifop, and NIS.


i haven't read through your thread yet; but of course, the major thing is that the bermuda doesn't come back. If you are able to get complete eradication (i.e., death, with no subsequent return over the years) with one season of treatment, that is a real accomplishment, as I see it.
But am I correct to assume that you did not mix the glyphosate with AS (or AMS, as you may know it)?



Movingshrub said:


> The added benefit would be that the Tenacity and pylex go after the bermuda as well and the glyphosate goes after everything.
> This mixture was more money than I wanted to spend.


I have read of very few homeowners willing to pay $400+ for Pylex. I think manufacturers/distributors have an eager market in homeowners, but I think smaller bottles are in order. About $150 is the upper limit of my comfort zone for buying an herbicide on any given occasion. On the other hand, it's not exactly rational. If a pro stopped by my house and told me that he could get rid of the bermuda in three years and it would likely never return, I would happily hand over $500. Heck, I might even consider giving him $500 more when the job was done. 
But ask me to spend $500 dollars on a bottle? I'm out :| I think I'll brush up on some chemistry and try to mix several sub $100 herbicides :?

I'm going to read through your thread. Thank you for these excellent thoughts as well as the literature.


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## Movingshrub

@social port I didn't include AS/AMS into the water; I didn't know that was even a thing until after I had sprayed. I thought fert was mixed with water just as a different way of fertilizing. I hadn't considered there being a benfiical impact with each type of herbicide.


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## Movingshrub

@social port 
http://www.nufarm.com/Assets/17209/1/Brochure_Spraywise_HandbookExtract_FmlnMixOrder_Apr11.pdf
Here is a document that lists the mixing order of a tank mix. The part that got my attention was actually the note at the very bottom - "Physical compatibility does not guarantee biological compatibility."

It was just encouraging to see this issue addressed by a chemical manuf.


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## social port

@Movingshrub yes, doesn't that validate your distinctions above (e.g., will the substances remain stable if mixed, and will the efficacy of the substance be hindered by the mode of action of the other substance)?

Building off those distinctions a bit, I'm willing to bet that the efficacy question varies by the timing of the application of multiple herbicides. For example, herbicide A applied day 1 and herbicide B applied day 5 might produce different results than Herbicide A and Herbicide B applied at the same time in a single mix. In theory, it might be possible to specify a schedule of application that has the greatest impact in terms of taking out the plant (e.g., five days apart might be better than simultaneous application-or there might be synergistic effects from a simultaneous application). That is a tempting road to travel, but I wouldn't know where to begin.
I'm still working through your thread.


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## gene_stl

@social port 
There is a lot of research along those lines regarding multiple applications of lower rate for example , but also regarding multiple agents. Somebody posted a paper that I just looked at in the last day or two talking about multiple 1 oz per acre apps of Tenacity vs. fewer higher rate apps. It may be that we are overthinking some of these things. I like to just get out there and play duke nukem. Specially on that warm season weed. :lol: :roll:


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## Hoosier

I've been doing some research on the different suggested herbicides for controlling Bermuda, in light of some of the above conversation to try to understand how/why some of these work. Not really wanting to dish out $450 at once for a 3 year supply of Pylex, so wanted to find out why that works best to try to mimic the effect at a lesser expense. I'm pretty new to this, so it may be common knowledge for a lot of people, but figured I would summarize... hasn't really led to any conclusions yet, but it's at least interesting.

Here's a link to a chart on the different modes of action: https://ag.purdue.edu/btny/weedscience/Documents/Herbicide_MOA_CornSoy_12_2012%5B1%5D.pdf

*Group 1 - ACCase Inhibitors*
These herbicides are absorbed through the foliage and translocated in the phloem to the growing point, where they inhibit meristematic activity (http://herbicidesymptoms.ipm.ucanr.edu/MOA/ACCase_inhibitors/). Inhibition of fatty acid synthesis presumably blocks the production of phospholipids used in building new membranes required for cell growth (http://wssa.net/wp-content/uploads/WSSA-Mechanism-of-Action.pdf).

-Fenoxaprop-P-Ethyl (Acclaim 6.59%)
-Fluazifop-P-Butyl (Fusilade II 24.5%, Ornamec 170 1.7%, Ornamec Over the Top 6.75%)
There are 3 sub-categories in this group based on the chemistry, and the above 2 are in the same category (Aryloxyphenoxypropionates (FOPs))

*Group 27 - HPPD Inhibitors*
4-Hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase (HPPD) is an enzyme found in both plants and animals which catalyzes the catabolism of the amino acid tyrosine. Preventing the breakdown of tyrosine has three negative consequences: the excess of tyrosine stunts growth; the plant suffers oxidative damage due to lack of tocopherols (vitamin E); and chlorophyll is destroyed due to lack of carotenoids that protect it. Plants turn white without deformation due to a complete loss of chlorophyll, which has led compounds of this class to be classified as "bleaching herbicides", as are protox inhibitors (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate_dioxygenase_inhibitor)

HPPD inhibitors can be classified into three fundamental chemical frameworks: pyrazolones (topramezone), triketones (mesotrione), and diketonitriles. The triketone class is based on a chemical that certain plants make in self-defense called leptospermone.

-Topramezone (Pylex 29.7%, Armezon, Impact)
-Mesotrione (Tenacity 40%)

*Group 4 - Growth Regulators*
These herbicides, also known as plant growth regulators, are readily absorbed through both roots and foliage and translocate by phloem or xylem to meristematic tissue interfering with cell formation that results in abnormal root and shoot growth. The killing action of synthetic auxins is not caused by any single factor but rather by the disruption of several growth processes in susceptible plants. It seems, however, that the primary action of these herbicides is likely to affect cell wall plasticity and nucleic acid metabolism. (http://herbicidesymptoms.ipm.ucanr.edu/MOA/Synthetic_Auxins/)

-Triclopyr (Turflon Ester)
-Fluroxypyr
-Quinclorac

Some thoughts/questions based on the above:
-Switching between Group 1 and Group 27 is probably a good approach to hit it from multiple angles, but I haven't come across anything that discusses mixing them at the same time. This write-up that I posted previously (http://oak.ppws.vt.edu/~saskew/wiregrass_control.pdf) gives some insight on when to use 1 method as opposed to the other based on the time of year and seeding restrictions.
-The mention of Quinclorac hurting Bermuda would seem to be plausible on paper (also confirmed in practice by an above post), as it's in the same Growth Regulating group as Triclopyr, which we all know is recommended to be mixed with all other Bermuda treating chemicals. Other Group 4 herbicides have no effect on Bermuda, but if this does, great news.
-It's noted that adding Triclopyr reduced the bleaching effect when mixed with one of the bleaching herbicides (topromezone/mesotrione). I wonder if this reduces the impact of the "chlorophyll-destroying" aspect of these, or if it reduced bleaching for some other reason. Regardless, all of the reading I've done indicates that Triclopyr increases the effectiveness of the other chemicals while reducing the harm to the desired turf


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## social port

@NashDad There may be a good number of threads on bermuda control, but this one could very well be the mother of all threads.

Thank you for this summary. It gives me a lot to ponder.


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## Delmarva Keith

NashDad said:


> I've been doing some research on the different suggested herbicides for controlling Bermuda, in light of some of the above conversation to try to understand how/why some of these work. Not really wanting to dish out $450 at once for a 3 year supply of Pylex, so wanted to find out why that works best to try to mimic the effect at a lesser expense. I'm pretty new to this, so it may be common knowledge for a lot of people, but figured I would summarize... hasn't really led to any conclusions yet, but it's at least interesting.
> 
> Here's a link to a chart on the different modes of action: https://ag.purdue.edu/btny/weedscience/Documents/Herbicide_MOA_CornSoy_12_2012%5B1%5D.pdf
> 
> *Group 1 - ACCase Inhibitors*
> These herbicides are absorbed through the foliage and translocated in the phloem to the growing point, where they inhibit meristematic activity (http://herbicidesymptoms.ipm.ucanr.edu/MOA/ACCase_inhibitors/). Inhibition of fatty acid synthesis presumably blocks the production of phospholipids used in building new membranes required for cell growth (http://wssa.net/wp-content/uploads/WSSA-Mechanism-of-Action.pdf).
> 
> -Fenoxaprop-P-Ethyl (Acclaim 6.59%)
> -Fluazifop-P-Butyl (Fusilade II 24.5%, Ornamec 170 1.7%, Ornamec Over the Top 6.75%)
> There are 3 sub-categories in this group based on the chemistry, and the above 2 are in the same category (Aryloxyphenoxypropionates (FOPs))
> 
> *Group 27 - HPPD Inhibitors*
> 4-Hydroxyphenylpyruvate dioxygenase (HPPD) is an enzyme found in both plants and animals which catalyzes the catabolism of the amino acid tyrosine. Preventing the breakdown of tyrosine has three negative consequences: the excess of tyrosine stunts growth; the plant suffers oxidative damage due to lack of tocopherols (vitamin E); and chlorophyll is destroyed due to lack of carotenoids that protect it. Plants turn white without deformation due to a complete loss of chlorophyll, which has led compounds of this class to be classified as "bleaching herbicides", as are protox inhibitors (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-hydroxyphenylpyruvate_dioxygenase_inhibitor)
> 
> HPPD inhibitors can be classified into three fundamental chemical frameworks: pyrazolones (topramezone), triketones (mesotrione), and diketonitriles. The triketone class is based on a chemical that certain plants make in self-defense called leptospermone.
> 
> -Topramezone (Pylex 29.7%, Armezon, Impact)
> -Mesotrione (Tenacity 40%)
> 
> *Group 4 - Growth Regulators*
> These herbicides, also known as plant growth regulators, are readily absorbed through both roots and foliage and translocate by phloem or xylem to meristematic tissue interfering with cell formation that results in abnormal root and shoot growth. The killing action of synthetic auxins is not caused by any single factor but rather by the disruption of several growth processes in susceptible plants. It seems, however, that the primary action of these herbicides is likely to affect cell wall plasticity and nucleic acid metabolism. (http://herbicidesymptoms.ipm.ucanr.edu/MOA/Synthetic_Auxins/)
> 
> -Triclopyr (Turflon Ester)
> -Fluroxypyr
> -Quinclorac
> 
> Some thoughts/questions based on the above:
> -Switching between Group 1 and Group 27 is probably a good approach to hit it from multiple angles, but I haven't come across anything that discusses mixing them at the same time. This write-up that I posted previously (http://oak.ppws.vt.edu/~saskew/wiregrass_control.pdf) gives some insight on when to use 1 method as opposed to the other based on the time of year and seeding restrictions.
> -The mention of Quinclorac hurting Bermuda would seem to be plausible on paper (also confirmed in practice by an above post), as it's in the same Growth Regulating group as Triclopyr, which we all know is recommended to be mixed with all other Bermuda treating chemicals. Other Group 4 herbicides have no effect on Bermuda, but if this does, great news.
> -It's noted that adding Triclopyr reduced the bleaching effect when mixed with one of the bleaching herbicides (topromezone/mesotrione). I wonder if this reduces the impact of the "chlorophyll-destroying" aspect of these, or if it reduced bleaching for some other reason. Regardless, all of the reading I've done indicates that Triclopyr increases the effectiveness of the other chemicals while reducing the harm to the desired turf


That is a really interesting approach and I think you are on to something. The challenge is twofold: one: find what chemical or mix of chemicals will severely injure C4 versus C3 grasses; two: have C4 severe injury substantial enough to actually kill practically immortal bermuda.

I would bet if you widenend your investigations to include the grass biology in addition to the herbicide effects, you might discover something presently overlooked. BASF (or any of the other herbicide labs) likely isn't investigating how to mix off patent herbicides to have the same kill ratio as, say, pylex. No money in it for them at all.

For the triclopyr browning not bleaching effect with pylex or tenacity, my understanding is that nobody really knows exactly why it has that effect. It does stress the crap out of bermuda though, and can kill some of it with repeat applications.


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## Hoosier

@social port Glad I could add to the confusion/complexity of the seemingly simple task of killing grass :|

@Delmarva Keith Interesting note about the different grass types. I'll definitely research that as I have more time to do so. I did come across this in reading about Group 1 herbicides, which might be a step in that direction:

" Broadleaf species are naturally resistant to cyclohexanedione and aryloxyphenoxy propionate herbicides because of an insensitive ACCase enzyme. Similarly, natural tolerance of some grasses appears to be due to a less sensitive ACCase (Stoltenberg 1989). An alternative mechanism of action has been proposed involving destruction of the electrochemical potential of the cell membrane, but the contribution of this hypothesis remains in question."

That's almost to the point where it might as well be in a different language, but there's probably something there along the lines of what you mentioned, and must explain why some of these are more harmful to Bermuda than they are to Fescue, despite the possibility of damage to both if over applied.


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## social port

If I read correctly, on p. 6 of @Suburban Jungle Life 's linked study, the addition of triclopyr to fluazifop added no benefit to Bermuda control (though it may have helped in the preservation of the desirable turf). In contrast, adding triclopyr to fenoxaprop did contribute to Bermuda suppression. 
I'm sure that it is more complex than this, but I wonder if there is something that mimics group 4 activity in pylex, thereby making pylex safer for applications to fescue?

Also, isn't the use of a growth regulator counterproductive for getting a kill on a grass that requires multiple applications (and thus vigorous growth) to kill?


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## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> Also, isn't the use of a growth regulator counterproductive for getting a kill on a grass that requires multiple applications (and thus vigorous growth) to kill?


That makes perfect sense, except some growth regulators don't slow cell division, they slow the cells from elongating after they divide. So basically the plant keeps growing even though it's not growing. :mrgreen:


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## social port

Delmarva Keith said:


> So basically the plant keeps growing even though it's not growing.


 :lol: yeah...I would have drawn that conclusion through my natural course of thinking :lol: 
I'm glad that these processes are so intuitive and straightforward :lol:

I'm going to mull over this one a bit.

TLF: _Breaking rules and brains since 2017_


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## Hoosier

Haven't had much time to continue researching the stuff above that makes my brain hurt, but figured I would post some progress photos and info. I'll make sure future post are much shorter than this one and the last one! Affected Bermuda is all of the brown you see in the pictures.

In terms of schedule:
23 days ago: Ornamec 170/Triclopyr spot spray
13 days ago: Tenacity (4oz/A) + Triclopyr (32oz/A) blanket app

After the Ornamec app, I did see some damage to the Bermuda, but also saw a ton of Bermuda still popping up, so concluded that I should have done a blanket app instead, which is why I did the 2nd app only 10 days after the first one.

In 8 days (21 days after Tenacity blanket app), or a few more dependent on the weather, I plan to do a blanket app of Ornamec + Triclopyr. I'm probably going to throw some Ortho Weed B Gone Crabgrass into the mix as well. As mentioned above, the Quinclorac may hurt the Bermuda, and I also want to hit any weeds that are popping up at that time as we get closer to overseeding time. I'll switch back to Tenacity + Triclopyr 21-28 days after that app, which will be the beginning of the 3rd week of August, and I'll finish out with Tenacity only (no Triclopyr) 21-28 days after that, as Ornamec and Triclopyr have seeding restrictions, and I want to be at least a couple weeks past the advised timeframe for that - I think it's 3 weeks, but I'd have to check the label again. When I overseed, I'll probably use the Scott's starter that has mesotrione (Tenacity) mixed in, which will be right around 3 weeks after the previous Tenacity only app, and push the fescue growth as much as I can for the remainder of the growing season. Then, I'll start this whole process over again in the spring (3 consecutive apps), regardless of whether or not I see Bermuda in my yard (even if it's hard to spot, I'm sure it'll be there). Hopefully no summertime apps are needed next year, but if so, will likely just be along the property line where the neighbor's Bermuda may be creeping in again.

Some conclusions:
-Tenacity is awesome. I have almost no weeds in my yard, and had a good amount before the application, which were very apparent because I'm not mowing even weekly. Also, notice all the bright green "grass" in the pictures below. In person, those are whiter than they appear in the picture, which means it's killing some other type of grassy weed that I didn't even realize I had before this app - I figured it was just a thick bladed and/or clumping Fescue that, given the other problems, was lower on the priority list to address. Turns out I had a much bigger problem than I realized!

-I don't expect to get the same response to the weeds as above from the Ornamec, since it's labeled for grassy weeds, which is part of the reason I'll add Weed B Gone. Using this instead of Vessel (the 3-way I use) since my focus is the Bermuda, so I want to see what happens as a result of the Quinclorac.

-I have 1 area that is almost all Bermuda and no fescue. This area has a lot of dying Bermuda in it, but there is also some that seems ok (see last picture). So, just based on my experience, the thread discussion/methods above work when Bermuda is mixing into the fescue, but will probably take a lot longer than I have the patience for if it has successfully taken over. I plan to seed at the end of September, so at the beginning of September, I'll more than likely hit that area with Roundup if there is any remaining green Bermuda by that point.

-To the point of my initial question of treating in the summer, I am not noticing any significant damage to the Fescue. I think the cultural practices help a lot with this... HOC at 4.25", no mowing regardless of grass height if temps are consistently above 90 degrees, and .5" of water every 3-4 days. I have timed my last few mows where I do it in the evening when it's around 85 degrees, with rain forecasted that night and/or the next day.

-Lastly, for any that haven't read the whole thread, the plan I'm following is not recommended by people that know a lot more about this than I do, but it does seem to be successful. Most literature says 3 apps in the Fall and 3 in the Spring, but I didn't want to wait until the Fall and allow the Bermuda to spread all Summer. Further, I am paying little attention to the recommended annual maximums of these products, and instead am applying as long as I don't see damage to the Fescue. That said, though the timing is not recommended, I am using lower rates at a slightly higher frequency, so I'm not as concerned. For example, Tenacity recommends 5-8 oz/A app rate, with 16oz/A annual max, and I'm applying at 4oz/A per app. Based on that, I'll exceed the annual max for a rolling 12 months, but not if I reset my measurements on Jan 1 :lol:


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## gene_stl

I don't like going out in the heat so my lawn care suffers from intermittentcy during the summer. We had a couple of cooler days here in St. Louis and I went out two days ago and spot sprayed a bunch of glyphosate onto my dallis grass spots. I gave up on trying to finesse it with stuff that is less harmful to the surrounding grass because I had big brown areas that the sulfentrazone killt in the heat with single dallis plants freshly sprouting in the middle even though the originals turned brown and withered too.

While I was out there I hit some of the extensive bermuda invasions. What stimulated this was on my front walk the bermuda there was trying to send stolons over the concrete. Really amazing. I went out to check before going to work about 15 hours later and the dallis all looked terribly sickly , whithered brown green.

The bermuda took a little longer but I glyphosated it along the walk and today it has shrunken away from the walk a bit but the stolons it is sending onto the walk still look pretty good. This is one tough weed.

Today I am going to light the whole front yard up with Tenacity and Quinclorac. Since I didn't get any pre-emergent down I also have a crabgrass problem to hammer.


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