# Chattanooga lawn of weeds



## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

Hey guys, I have a lawn consisting of nothing but creeping charlie, clover, and a patch of what I think is bermuda grass, but mostly...just weeds. I've been working on a gameplan to change that this fall, which I read is the best time to seed, but I'll be honest, I have a brown thumb and am basically getting my advice from youtube videos right now. Found this forum from Google and hoping someone might be able to help ensure I don't totally ruin what little lawn I have. (As my neighbor with a near perfect lawn told me when I asked for any advice on my lawn: "At least it's green!"

I mow once a week, with the deck around 2.5 - 3 inches. I try to ensure weeds can't grow too much. I've fertilized and seeded in the past, but never had luck with germination. I'm guessing that's because the yard is hard as a brick (mostly clay in the back, haven't really dug down much in the front yard). I should note the back yard floods in the spring when it rains. I did scrap a couple parts of the yard with a garden rake this spring and seeded those with some seed+feed from Home Depot (Don't know kind, just what they had on sale) and that worked a little better and filled in those areas, which just a few months later are now 50% weeds themselves.

Since then, I've been trying to assemble a gameplan for this fall, don't really want to touch it during the summer heat. (plus, my four year old son plays outside a lot in the summer, so don't want to keep him from being able to play while I try to make the yard look like a lawn).

*TLDR*
I have nothing but creeping charlie, clover, and a pinch of bermuda grass on clay near the floodzone in Southern TN.

*My Current Thinking:*
I'm hoping I can do a one day "Knock it out" deal, I have a 4 year old son with a new daughter due in a few weeks, so multi-day projects get harder to schedule.


Clay: Aerate the lawn, renting one from Home Depot. Should help with seeding.
Weeds: From what I'm seeing, Tenacity looks like my best bet to get rid of the creeping charlie and clover. Use a bonding agent and dye to prevent over spraying.
Seed: Thinking tall fescue, but given that I have a patch of bermuda am unsure. 

*Questions*
Is the above anywhere close to a good idea? Am I in the ballpark at least?

When do I fertilize? Before seeding? (In which case, before aerating? From what I can tell you seed and fertilize at the same time? No clue. Also no clue what my lawns chemical makeup is other than weeds.

When would I do all this? I'm planning on mid September, but would early October be better?

Suggestions on grass seed to buy? I like what I read about tall fescue, seems like it would be perfect for my area, and better suited for the occasional flooding in the spring, but open to ideas.

And lastly...what questions have I NOT asked because I don't even know enough to ask them?

Thanks in advance guys!


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## BermudaBoy (Jun 27, 2019)

If you are planning on seeding in the fall it stand to reason that you are going with a cool season grass. You may have better luck in that subform if this is the case.


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

That might be exposing my lack of knowledge.
Looking for a "most of the year" grass, ok if its brown in the winter. Preferably soft under foot for my kids.

So should I be planning for the spring for the above? Is it close to a solid plan?


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Trees, shade profile? Mostly sun? Irrigation? 
I wouldn't do a fescue up there but some are up for the summer fist fight (water demands, fungus)

Quick fix you elude to preferring, is always sod ...warm season seeded stuff is exponentially harder (and a compromise in quality) than a cool season grass.

SQ ft?


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Be careful with tenacity if you want the Bermuda to survive.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

May I suggest, instead of trying to mechanically aerate clay -- get some N-Ext Air8 and some humic acid. Chemically soften it up. Then, follow it up with Hi Yield gypsum. It's not instant like mechanical aerate, but so far, I have found it is far more effective. I started treating this March with Humic monthly. The last time I had to dig in my clay, I couldn't believe the difference vs before those treatments.

If the clay is hard enough, the aerator just bounces off it.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

Welcome! I'm very close to you, and new to the Chattanooga area but not new to Tennessee lawns. A few notes on your comments and questions:



A2597 said:


> Clay: Aerate the lawn, renting one from Home Depot. Should help with seeding.
> Weeds: From what I'm seeing, Tenacity looks like my best bet to get rid of the creeping charlie and clover. Use a bonding agent and dye to prevent over spraying.
> Seed: Thinking tall fescue, but given that I have a patch of bermuda am unsure.


I wouldn't try to aerate the clay just yet, for two reasons. The first is what @Darth_V8r noted. The second is that it won't really help with germination for the grass I think you should use, which is bermuda. For the same reason, I'd avoid Tenacity for now. Also, clay is not a bad medium for growing grass . . . you'll just have to work on it to improve its fertility over time, and plan to work on the drainage for the area that floods.

Tall fescue in Tennessee is an ongoing battle just to keep a full yard. You'll have to overseed every single year even if you water religiously through the summer. When the fescue inevitably thins out in the heat of the summer, weeds will have plenty of room to take over. Please strongly consider bermuda instead.



A2597 said:


> *Questions*
> Is the above anywhere close to a good idea? Am I in the ballpark at least?
> 
> When do I fertilize? Before seeding? (In which case, before aerating? From what I can tell you seed and fertilize at the same time? No clue. Also no clue what my lawns chemical makeup is other than weeds.
> ...


Your plan would be solid for tall fescue, but the approach is off if you choose to go with bermuda instead. There's still time for a renovation to a bermuda lawn this summer but you'll have a lot to do in the next few weeks. There are excellent people and documentation in this forum to help you with the bermuda process if you choose that route.

If you decide to go with tall fescue, just know it will be a yearly battle unless you have quite a bit of shade. There are people who grow it in this area but it is not easy. I grew it in Knoxville and was never able to keep it healthy through the summer except under trees where the sun didn't bake it. If you go this route, the timeline you suggested is pretty good but you will want to post in the Cool Season forum for more detailed advice.

Best of luck to you!


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

jayhawk said:


> Trees, shade profile? Mostly sun? Irrigation?
> I wouldn't do a fescue up there but some are up for the summer fist fight (water demands, fungus)
> SQ ft?


Almost full sun, little to no irrigation other than rain. I had no idea fescue was so high maintenance, totally different than whats been advertised, so thank you!

My yard is around 6000sq ft, not opposed to sod, just harder to swing a couple grand at my yard than a few hundred.

Thank you @Darth_V8r , I will look into doing that!



Bermuda_Rooster said:


> Welcome! I'm very close to you, and new to the Chattanooga area but not new to Tennessee lawns. A few notes on your comments and questions:
> 
> I wouldn't try to aerate the clay just yet, for two reasons. The first is what @Darth_V8r noted. The second is that it won't really help with germination for the grass I think you should use, which is bermuda. For the same reason, I'd avoid Tenacity for now. Also, clay is not a bad medium for growing grass . . . you'll just have to work on it to improve its fertility over time, and plan to work on the drainage for the area that floods.
> 
> ...


Thank you!
Sounds like bermuda is the way to go here, I'll see what I can find on the forum about creeping charlie to a bermuda renovation. Any suggestions for how to kill creeping charlie aside from tenacity that would be more bermuda friendly?
I'm always open for more advice, sounds like 24 hours on this forum has already saved me years of headache with fescue, so thank you all!


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

A2597 said:


> Any suggestions for how to kill creeping charlie aside from tenacity that would be more bermuda friendly?


I'm not an expert on bermuda-safe herbicides, but I think you're safe with a broadleaf herbicide mix with some or all of 2,4d, dicamba, and MCPP. The best options (like triclopyr) are out because they will damage bermuda pretty severely.


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

@Bermuda_Rooster 
Thank you! Looks like something like 3 Way Max would be in order?
https://www.domyown.com/way-max-turf-and-ornamental-broadleaf-herbicide-p-9853.html

I've not done much in terms of spraying, what do you think would be the best order of operation? 
If the weed killer takes 3 weeks, maybe four, when do I chemical aerate and when do I seed?

And how long after spraying weed killer to let my son roll around in the yard again? (read all the labels, it doesn't say...I'm guessing after a week provided there's been a good rain as well?)


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

If you don't have irrigation, just hoses....I think seeding is gonna be a challenge. @Tellycoleman is across the road near Nashville (I think) ....I think he seeded, more confidently advise


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

jayhawk said:


> If you don't have irrigation, just hoses....I think seeding is gonna be a challenge. @Tellycoleman is across the road near Nashville (I think) ....I think he seeded, more confidently advise


I seeded as well, without irrigation, but only about 1500 sq ft. I made mistakes, so it didn't go so smoothly. I think 6k is doable with decent hoses, sprinklers, and timers . . . but things have to go right with the weather, especially with a yard prone to flooding.

The temps are pretty good for bermuda germinating here right now-- the last of my spot seeding was coming up in 6 days. Still, if I had it to do again and had all options at my disposal I probably would have sprigged-- or maybe sodded if I wasn't so cheap.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

If you have adequate coverage with sprinklers then anything is possible. Sprigging would also be the best bet this late in the season. Seeding this late in the season will give you issues f you have a cold winter. Bermuda seeding is not like cool season. It is a lot harder. KBG does great in nashville


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

Tellycoleman said:


> KBG does great in nashville


Really? I had TTTF out there and thought there's no way KBG would make it through the summers.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > KBG does great in nashville
> ...


I think you got it backwards. TTTF will not survive. But Nashville is 98% KBG. All 7 people in my cul de sac and everyone of my neighbors in my entire community would disagree with your statement. I Lived in a Brentwood community for 6 years and the HOA mandated KBG grass. Most HOA ban bermuda and only allow KBG or a mix

Tall Fescue Has a MUCH MUCH MUCH lower tolerance for heat then Kentucky Blue Grass


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

Tellycoleman said:


> Bermuda_Rooster said:
> 
> 
> > Tellycoleman said:
> ...


Well, one of us has it backwards for sure! And maybe it's me. But I've never seen KBG recommended for the southern transition zone. I never saw a KBG yard in Knoxville or Nashville, and haven't seen one down here either. TTTF is what I've always seen recommended in Middle and East Tennessee. Shrug.

Perhaps the difference is death vs dormancy, since TTTF does the former rather than the latter but stays greener longer.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> Well, one of us has it backwards for sure! And maybe it's me. But I've never seen KBG recommended for the southern transition zone. I never saw a KBG yard in Knoxville or Nashville, and haven't seen one down here either. TTTF is what I've always seen recommended in Middle and East Tennessee. Shrug.
> 
> Perhaps the difference is death vs dormancy, since TTTF does the former rather than the latter but stays greener longer.


They're growing it in Texas and it's hotter than heck there.

SPF-30 Hybrid Bluegrass


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> They're growing it in Texas and it's hotter than heck there.
> 
> SPF-30 Hybrid Bluegrass


Yep, the newer heat tolerant varieties seem to have a lot of potential. I'd prefer KBG over any other grass for looks, but I've never lived anywhere you could readily grow it through the summer.


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

That bluegrass looks like my dream lawn grass...
Hmm..so that would be a "Wait until spring" right?
Thoughts on gameplan of weedkiller/chemical aerate in the fall, (brown lawn who cares, it's winter and everyone's is dead except for the few that seed a winter mix), then seed/fertilize in the spring?

And back to Tenacity if I go with a hybrid bluegrass (especially if it's a few months before I seed the bluegrass).


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

A2597 said:


> That bluegrass looks like my dream lawn grass...
> Hmm..so that would be a "Wait until spring" right?
> Thoughts on gameplan of weedkiller/chemical aerate in the fall, (brown lawn who cares, it's winter and everyone's is dead except for the few that seed a winter mix), then seed/fertilize in the spring?
> 
> And back to Tenacity if I go with a hybrid bluegrass (especially if it's a few months before I seed the bluegrass).


KBG would be like fescue-- you'd want to seed in the Fall. I would not do KBG here, though, unless you feel really good about results you've seen of these hybrid bluegrasses in hot places and done your research on how to achieve that. It wouldn't be easy. I would post all of this info on the Cool Season side of this forum and see what they tell you. They have far more experience with those grass types.

I would stick with the bermuda plan, but that's just my $0.02. But . . . if you went the KBG route I would INSIST that you post your progress! I'd love to keep up with how it goes.


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## Mtsdream (May 2, 2019)

A2597 said:


> That bluegrass looks like my dream lawn grass...
> Hmm..so that would be a "Wait until spring" right?
> Thoughts on gameplan of weedkiller/chemical aerate in the fall, (brown lawn who cares, it's winter and everyone's is dead except for the few that seed a winter mix), then seed/fertilize in the spring?
> 
> And back to Tenacity if I go with a hybrid bluegrass (especially if it's a few months before I seed the bluegrass).


If you're going to seed in the fall, just glypho all of it, and spray anything green
every 2-3 weeks. If kbg or tall fescue you can put tenacity at seed down


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

So small followup,
been taking sprigs from my garden where the bermuda has spread into it and moving them into the yard in any area I feel it has a chance against the creeping charlie and crabgrass. So far, looks like all sprigs I've planted have taken root, hoping to just keep it spreading through the yard over the rest of the summer.

Small steps, planning on a herbicide for the creeping charlie in the fall, been reading that's a really good time to poison it, followed up by a pre-emergant and second dose of the herbicide in the early spring.

Not certain when to apply aeration, but thinking that would be spring as well?

Then mid spring seed bermuda, when mother nature will take care of the watering. (It gets quite wet here in the spring)


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## Darrell_KC (Mar 20, 2019)

It depends on the temps for bermuda seeding. You have to be very careful with the spring seeding because Mother Nature also loves to wash out a nicely planned seed down. There's a couple stories on here of people who lost huge projects due to some badly timed storms that dumped tons of rain and led to washout.

The reason people recommend against spring seeding isn't because it can't be done, it's because it's much trickier. You could have a late season cold snap, or slow moving storm system park on you and dump tons of rain and ruin your expensive and carefully timed project. Another thing to keep in mind, if you do run with a pre-emergent, remember not to use one in spring when you plan to seed. I put down pre-emergent in March and couldn't get anything to grow from seed until mid June. Sprigs/plugs would not be affected by this.


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## A2597 (Jun 29, 2020)

Good to know that about the pre-emergant, thanks!


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