# Renovation via stolonizing TIFTUF



## Movingshrub

I wanted to transition a thread from another forum to this forum documenting my effort to replace/renovate my lawn.

My wife and I bought a house April 2015 from the estate of the original owners. The back yard had been neglected for at least ten years, if not longer. Cutting the grass seemed to be the extent of the maintenance. The side of the yard was so overgrown that I found two V-8 engines, one still attached to the transmission, hidden in the brush.

Photos of house at time of purchase are below.

We are in a transition zone, USDA hardiness zone 7b 5-10F.

The existing turf grass looked like Tifway 419 Bermuda with a bunch of weeds and some common Bermuda as well.

The side of the house was covered with English ivy to where the ivy had grown into the roof and into the HVAC units.

I spent the last two years pulling up the ivy, cutting down trees, and just generally removing unwanted foliage.

There was a flower bed in the front yard that I removed. I tried filling in that opening with Yukon seed in August of 2015. It was total mistake for me. The Yukon color and growth habits didn't match that of the existing Bermuda. I do wonder if something like Princess 77 or Riviera would have blended better. The Yukon was a much lighter green in my yard than the other Bermuda.

The house has a separate water meter for irrigation but no irrigation system at the time of purchase.

I performed soil tests in 2016 and 2017 to see how I was on N-P-K and pH. I did not test for micronutrients; That is on the agenda for my the soil test this year.

Also, I was persuaded to pass on the seed variants and go with a vegetative propagation type of Bermuda or Zoysia.

Furthermore, the house had more shade than I realized. As I understand it, Bermuda needs two things - sunlight and nitrogen. As a result, I removed more trees. There are five trees left in the yard - two in the front and three in the back - The canopy of each tree has been raised to maximize the amount of sunlight while also maintaining the aesthetics of the trees.

I read multiple posts suggesting to photograph the lawn throughout the day to see if you are getting enough light for your desired turf grass cultivar. In my opinion, that approach is insufficient in two ways: 1. All shade isn't equal - Shade under a pine tree at noon and shade under at magnolia tree at noon are not the same thing. 2. How much light do I really need?

I turned to turfgrass experts at Auburn University for some help answering those questions. I was advised to get a light meter. I purchased the LightScout DLI 100 which measures light over a 24 hour period. I placed the light meter in the full sun part of my yard for a few days to see the max amount of light that spot would receive this time of year. Each day I was getting a reading of 35+ DLIs (daily light integral). I also measured the light in one area of concern. On a partially cloudy day I was getting 20-25 DLI, 10-14 DLI on a cloudy day, and 35+ on a sunny day, all in the same shady area. I was advised that Tifway 419 Bermuda looks best at 25+ DLIs, TifTuf and Tifgrand can do well at 18+, while some Zoysias can do just fine at 12+ DLI.

I attached a DLI map below.

As another reference provide a breakdown of the light equirements of different Turfgrass cultivars. http://floridaturf.com/quantifying-light-requirements-of-turfgrass-using-daily-light-integral/

I made sure to avoid applying pre-emergents in areas where I planned to sprig. I did apply dithiopyr to the other parts of my yard where I intended to keep the existing Bermuda.

Early March I rented the biggest Toro stump grinder I could find locally, the STX-38 (38hp). I ran the machine for ten hours and only managed to get rid of half of my stumps. I ended up contracting out the removal of the remainder of the stumps. The contractor had a 70HP machine and it still took them several hours to remove the remainder of stumps.

I LIKE Bermuda grass. I spend a lot of my free time on a soccer field. Bermuda feels like home. I didn't really want to switch to Zoysia unless it was the only choice for my yard. I am sticking with a warm season grass. Fescue is a four letter word in my house; I just do not like the texture of how it feels to walk on barefoot. Furthermore, I have dogs and kids so I thought Bermuda would be the most resilient selection. Considering the amount of light I'm getting is right on the line for Bermuda in a few spots, I was torn between TifGrand and TifTuf. I reached out to a POC with the University of Georgia who suggested that I base the decision on mowing height and method of cutting. The UGA Turfgrass expert suggested I use Tifgrand if using a reel mower and cutting at 0.5"-1" and to go with TifTuf if using a rotary mower and cutting at 1" or higher. My backyard had pecan trees, so a reel mower is no-go for me, as a result TifTuf it is, especially considering the drought last year.

As part of the replacement, I blasted everything with glyphosate. My first application was April 1st, then April 15th, then April 30th, May 8th, and May 23rd. My plan was three applications, then bringing in screened topsoil and sand, and then to apply glyphosate for any weeds that popped up in the new sand and dirt.

Unfortunately, no plan survives contact with the enemy. In this case, my enemy was time/scheduling. I planned to plant mid/late June. That time line was driven by my own availability as well as sprig availability from a supplying farm. I was booked all of May with personal obligations and most farms weren't willing to sell TifTuf sprigs at all, and the ones that were said it would be mid summer. The supplying sod farm told me on May 30th that I would need to pick up the sprigs on June 2nd, unless it rained on them. I had three days to do all my grading, bring in topsoil and sand, and install an irrigation system, by myself.

Tuesday May 30th and May 31st - I brought in three yards of screened topsoil and three yards of sand to fill in the low spots of my yard.

May 31st - I rented a tracked Toro Dingo along with a powered Harley rake to smooth out and do the surface prep.

The dingo with the Harley power rake worked great. It took me a while to figure out to really use the equipment to accomplish what I wanted. I ended up going across the entire yard three times. Right to left, top to bottom, then right to left again. I had high spots to remove and this was the best method for the layout of my yard to smooth it out and minimize the amount of hand raking afterwards.

I operated the dingo and Harley power rake for about 5-6 hours of operational time. I was working with three different areas adding up to about 10,000 square feet. The spaces involved a lot of different angles and fences versus a wide open rectangle shaped lot.

I had two separate equipment failures which caused a half-day delay. My rented Harley rake broke, twice; once was a bearing and the replacement had a hydraulic coupling that was spraying fluid.

June 1st - I hand raked and cleaned up the piles of soil and debris left at the end of the rows by the power rake.

I was really lucky that it rained May 31st-June 2nd at the sod farm.

June 2nd - I rented a ditch trenching machine to being my irrigation installation. I started off with a Ditch Witch 1030 that was 11HP. It is rather heavy (900lb) and extremely challenging to maneuver. I spent almost a whole day trying to trench with it without making much progress.

Call before you dig! 811. Make sure to call almost a week before you plan to dig. I called May 26th.

June 3rd - I ended up upgrading to the Ditch Witch C30X. Also, I had a challenging time getting all of the necessary pipe fittings cause I am using 1 1/4" sized Schedule 40 PVC; this is due to the number of tree roots and chipmunks in my area. I ended up having to piece together the 1 1/4" components between six different stores. All I did this day was trench and rough-in the pipe locations. My yard had substantial tree roots which caused delays and rerouting my irrigation plan. I ended up using my chainsaw to cut some of the really big (pie plate) sized roots. It was totally worth it to me to just sharpen the chain versus spending the time hacking away with an ax.

I had a rough idea where my sewer line was but I was not exactly correct. I managed to locate it with the trencher but stopped the machine before it did any damage. I was using the smaller trenching machine at the time. My sewer line happened to be only 18" below grade. I had expected it to be at least 24"+. Furthermore, I found the electrical line to my mailbox lamp. I was not too worried about hitting that electrical line since I plan to replace the mailbox in the near future anyways. My plan was to just install conduit in one of the irrigation trenches if I happened to cut the wire. As a result of cutting the wire, I am going to use SCH 80 conduit for the new run.

It may be of value to use a locator with a pipe inspection camera to ensure you know where your sewer line is located. Same thing applies to the electrical line locators. I opted to take my chances on both.

June 4th - Finished trenching all of yard and also installed/glued all of the PVC in the back yard and north side of the house. I lucked out and managed to avoid rain all week until 9pm on June 4th.

I worked dawn 0530 to dusk 2000 every day, starting May 31st through June 4th, and had some help from my father-in-law and my wife along the way.

June 5th - Sod farm told me due the rain, the earliest chance of harvesting would be June 8th or June 9th.
After work on both June 5th and 6th, I continued working on the sprinkler install.

June 7th & 8th - Took off work to continue with irrigation installation.

June 9th - Sod farm told me to pick up sprigs on June 15th.

Continued working on irrigation system solo after work and the remainder of the weekend.

As of June 11th, I have water in every zone. I have got the front, sidewalk, side, and half the back fully configured and the trenches refilled.

June 12th - I plan to aim the radius of the remaining rotors, refill the remaining trenches, and install the irrigation controller.

June 13th - I am considering renting another powered harely rake to smooth out the trench lines.

June 15th - Planning to pick up sprigs and a sod roller to ensure contact with the soil once broadcast. This date may shift to the right depending on weather. This approach calls for a heavy amount of nitrogen. All of the documents I read suggested using Ammonium Nitrate which has been impossible for me to find. As a result, I'm using Ammonium Sulfate and also using dolomitic lime.

Lesson learned - Everything takes longer than you expect it too.

Get rid of the tree stump debris. Some of the stump debris was too large and did not blend very well into the topsoil. I spent too much time raking and picking up the large pieces of debris by hand. It would have been easier I think to use the bucket on the dingo to more easily move the debris to a trailer for disposal.

Rent the biggest trencher possible from the git-go. Time is the one resource we never get back.

Get all your materials in advance and plan to need extra due to mistakes or rerouting. I had to reroute around some stumps/roots that I couldn't dig/cut through. I am using approximately 1600 feet of SCH 40 PVC pipe; that stuff adds up fast.

Cost Breakdown 
Screened Topsoil - $120 - 3 yards at $40/yard
River Sand - $40 - paid by the ton, about 3 yards worth
Harley Power Rake and Dingo - $250 for 8 hours of use on the machine; due back within 24hours
Large Ditch Witch Trencher - $200 for 8 hours of use on the machine; rented over a weekend
Gasoline and Diesel Fuel - $30
1600 feet of 1 1/4" SCH 40 PVC Pipe and Fittings - $1500.
Rainbird Sprinkler Components (5004 - SAM rotors - qty 14ea, 3504 - SAM rotors - qty 27ea, 1800 SAM PRS pop-up sprayers - qty 11ea, DFV 100 valves - qty 5ea, 6" swing pipe in both 1/2" and 3/4", two valve boxes, and a ESP-ME controller - $750.

I expect return $100-$200 worth of left over PVC and fittings. I used unions on each side of each valve in hopes of making serviceability being easier in the future, if necessary. I don't know if this was really needed or not.

I still plan to purchase 3/4" SCH 80 conduit to route the power for the controller and I also intend to run the valve wires in SCH 80 as well. I need to purchase fertilizer, the sprigs, dolomitic lime, rent the sod roller, and, potentially, purchase Carfentrazone-ethyl (Quicksilver) to help control any weeds during establishment. I was advised multiple times to use Oxadiazon (RonStar-G) as a pre-emergent.

I expect to pull off this entire project, excluding the tree removal, stump removal, and water, for about $4,000.

I would recommend coordinating people to help you rake up the debris and refill the trenches. This is a good time to hire high school kids in the neighborhood who want to make some money.

The high temp and humidity definitely takes its toll. I run outside regularly and had stocked up on water, Gatorade, and sunscreen and still was smoked from the work and heat.

Pictures of the front and back at time of purchase


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## Ware

Great story! You've been BUSY!

Welcome to TLF - I'm anxious to follow the rest of this project! :thumbup:


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## J_nick

Excellent write up Movingshrub!

To incorporate the sprigs in the soil do you plan to do a light top dressing? I fear just rolling them won't get them into the ground enough to promote good rooting.


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## J_nick

Btw I just Harley Raked my yard a week or so ago and I also broke the Rake. In my case I hit an abondoned water well casing (6" .250 wall pipe) it busted a hydraulic line for the angle control.

I installed my own sprinkler system last year and man is it tough work. I applaud you for doing it yourself. It's back breaking but trust me it's worth it to just hit a button and water the lawn for years to come.

Looking forward to reading more updates. Welcome to TLF


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## Movingshrub

I had considered top dressing with 1/8th inch of sand. I am hoping the sod roller and regular watering does the trick. Otherwise I am going to need 3-7 yards of sand depending on whether I topdress at 1/8th or 1/4th an inch, respectively.

Also, I am working with a space of about 9,000 sqft. I intend to use 200 bushels of sprigs to encourage rapid fill-in.

I am confident the people who install sprinkler systems earn EVERY penny of their paycheck.


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## Iriasj2009

Movingshrub said:


> I had considered top dressing with 1/8th inch of sand. I am hoping the sod roller and regular watering does the trick. Otherwise I am going to need 3-7 yards of sand depending on whether I topdress at 1/8th or 1/4th an inch, respectively.
> 
> Also, I am working with a space of about 9,000 sqft. I intend to use 200 bushels of sprigs to encourage rapid fill-in.
> 
> I am confident the people who install sprinkler systems earn EVERY penny of their paycheck.


Top dressing would definitely help and give you faster coverage but if you can't, just roll them REALLY good and keep it moist. If you could run a disk over them, that would increase survival rate. Good luck!


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## j4c11

What about running a core aerator a couple times after sprigging, that should put quite a bit of dirt on top of the sprigs.


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## Iriasj2009

j4c11 said:


> What about running a core aerator a couple times after sprigging, that should put quite a bit of dirt on top of the sprigs.


Great idea! And then rolling it!!


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## dfw_pilot

Wow, what a great post! I will be purchasing some DLI light meters.


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## Movingshrub

I turned to a lot of publically available material from Clemson University, The University of Tennessee, and Mississippi State University.

Univ of TN had good information on timeline of when to plant
https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-F.pdf

How to prep for planting
https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-A.pdf

Methods of sprigging and the associated fertilizer and water requirements
https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-D.pdf

Clemson University had the most comprehensive document I've ever seen on what herbicides play well with one another, for what pests, for which turfgrass, etc. The document is the "Pest Control Guidelines for Professional Turfgrass Managers." It covered sedges, fungus, etc.

http://media.clemson.edu/public/turfgrass/2017%20Pest%20Management/2017%20Pest%20Control%20Recommendations.pdf

Clemson also has a substantial amount of information on their extension website
https://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/

http://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/P2892.pdf
Seleting and Managing Turfgrass for shade - MS State University

If someone knows how to embed this PDFs, rather than using the URLs, please do so.


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## Movingshrub

Also, an area where I am seeking input - Do I need to put down a fungicide before/during/after broadcasting the stolons?

I figured warm weather, watering small amounts every hour to keep stolons from drying out, plus 1LB of Nitrogen every 7-10 days, would potentially lead to a good environment for a fungus.


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## J_nick

Here is another good article for sprigging Bermuda I found while researching. 
http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/STMA_Bulletins/Sprigging_bermudagrass.pdf


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## Iriasj2009

Movingshrub said:


> Also, an area where I am seeking input - Do I need to put down a fungicide before/during/after broadcasting the stolons?
> 
> I figured warm weather, watering small amounts every hour to keep stolons from drying out, plus 1LB of Nitrogen every 7-10 days, would potentially lead to a good environment for a fungus.


I sprigged without fungicides with no issues.


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## Movingshrub

I ended up renting the dingo and Harley rake again to smooth out all of the areas where I had trenched. It had rained a few times since I trenched and the ground was too hard to separate the removed dirt to back fill the trenches.

I should have planned for more time for the trenches to settle back in before planting.

June 15th - I went and got the sprigs from the sod farm. I purchased 200 bushels. The math I had seen is that the planting rate is 10-20 bushels per 1,000 sqft. I'm planting an area a bit over 9,000 sqft, so 180 bushels would be on the upper end of the guidance. A bushel is 0.4 cubic feet. I transported 200ish bushels in 16' by 6' trailer, stacked 1' high, so 96 cubic feet worth of sprigs, so I left with over 200 bushels worth.

Right when I got home, the sky opened up with rain. I live in North Alabama. I got 1" of rain before I got anything on to the ground.

Yesterday, My FIL and I managed to unload and spread all of the sprigs onto the lawn. I also put down a Lesco 18-24-12 starter fert at a rate of 5.55LB per 1,000 sqft. The goal was 1LB of Nitrogen per 1,000 sqft. I used the entire bag; 5.55LB x 9,000 sqft = 49.95LB.

Upside to rain and clouds - it dropped the temperature significantly from the 90s down into the 70s and got water onto the sprigs before I even unloaded the trailer.

Downside to rain - my yard is *soaked* and there is mud everywhere.

Here is where I need some help on how to move forward:

It is challenging to use the lawn roller to push in the sprigs. The mud keeps clogging up the roller and picking up the sprigs although it is also pushing in other sprigs, think the equivalent of using a lint roller on your clothes but your lawn instead.

Do I continue to attempt to use the lawn sod roller in hopes that it manages to push in enough sprigs?

Get a disc and try to disc them in? I expect the tractor is going to sink-in to the ground if I try this.

Apply less and less water in hopes of the ground drying out, and then using the roller? How do I do this while preventing the sprigs from drying out and dying?

Top dress the $#!& out of the yard with sand? If so, we're talking 7+ yards of sand which is more than I'd want to attempt by hand - so, top dressing machine, which is probably going to sink in to the ground as well.

Walk around and hope I can step on enough sprigs to cause contact with the dirt?

I am open to suggestions on how to proceed.


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## J_nick

How's it doing Movingshrub? Anything greening up yet?


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## Movingshrub

Update as of June 28th.

On June 20th I applied a 34-0-0 fertilizer, at a rate of 1 pound of nitrogen per thousand square feet. Five days later on June 25th, I applied Lesco 18-24-12 starter fertilizer at the same rate; 1lb of N per 1k SQFT.

I plan to apply another pound of N per 1k SQFT today, if the weather cooperates, otherwise as soon as it's viable.

I do have areas that are starting to green up.

Also, I've been walking the yard every other day to hand pull any weeds. I've seen just a few things of Crabgrass and Goosegrass and then a handful of broadleaf weeds around the perimeter.

I think the planting would've gone better had it not rained on me the second I tried to plant, had I disced in the sprigs, and/or if I had top dressed the sprigs. I did none of the above. With that being said, I'm pleasantly surprised and eager to see how it looks at week 8.

This photo was taken the evening of Wednesday June 28th.


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## Movingshrub

I feel like it has rained every day since I sprigged, which has probably helped. I did apply one pound of nitrogen per thousand square feet on Thursday June 30th.

Once the ground isn't wet, I plan to put another 1LB of N per 1K SQFT using an all purpose fertilizer. I hope to cut the grass for the first time in the next few days once the ground isn't soggy, otherwise I'll just cut it with a trimmer.

Also, I am trying to locate a pH test kit to make sure the ammonium nitrate and urea haven't pushed the pH too acidic.

I've been walking the yard every few days and hand pulling any weeds I find.

Has anyone sprigged Bermuda before? I am trying to find info on what pre emergents are safe for the first fall season.


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## Mightyquinn

Just go to your local county extension office to get a soil test done, it's usually pretty cheap.

You might want to look into Ronstar for your needs of a PreM for your stolons. It's expensive but I've heard it works really well.


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## Movingshrub

I've gone the extension office route in the past. Here it gets mailed to Auburn University's soil lab for processing. As a result, it's usually 2-3 weeks before you get the results. Considering how much Ammonium Sulfate I've been spreading, I wanted to know the pH sooner than that so I could decide whether or not to apply dolomitic lime.

I used a home test kit and I'm at about 6.5pH.
I'll test another part later in the week after I water in the next application of fertilizer.

Also, I cut the grass for the first time today. I set my rotary mower to the second highest setting. Tomorrow or the next day, I'll lower it a notch and cut it again.


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## Iriasj2009

Movingshrub said:


> I've gone the extension office route in the past. Here it gets mailed to Auburn University's soil lab for processing. As a result, it's usually 2-3 weeks before you get the results. Considering how much Ammonium Sulfate I've been spreading, I wanted to know the pH sooner than that so I could decide whether or not to apply dolomitic lime.
> 
> I used a home test kit and I'm at about 6.5pH.
> I'll test another part later in the week after I water in the next application of fertilizer.
> 
> Also, I cut the grass for the first time today. I set my rotary mower to the second highest setting. Tomorrow or the next day, I'll lower it a notch and cut it again.


Don't worry about the ammonium sulfate, i use it on 7.5 ph soil and my soil ph hasn't changed. It's only a temporary acidifier. As long as your Bermuda keeps growing nice and strong, I wouldn't worry about it.


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## Movingshrub

Makes sense. I had some areas that were turning yellow. I wasn't sure if that was due to to the pH, excess nitrogen, or from the seven inches of rain north Alabama has received in the last three weeks, combined with the irrigation I was doing to keep sprigs in the same zone, from drying out.


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## Movingshrub

Jun 15th 2015 - About two months after I bought the house


March 21st 2016 - Slow and steady removal of trees and foliage


Feb 19th 2017 - Pre-stump removal


April 2nd 2017 - Stumps ground


April 9th 2017 - 1st application of glyphosate


June 1st 2017 - Surface prep prior to installing irrigation system


Managed to install sprinkler system for the entire lot between June 1st and June 13th and then broadcast sprigs of TifTuf on June 15th 2017

June 28th 2017 - 13 days after planting


July 5th 2017 - 20 days after planting


July 8th - 23 days after planting


July 13th - 28 days after planting


July 21st - 36 days after planting


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## J_nick

Wow great job you completely changed the look of the yard. You had a jungle back there when you first moved in! So much more room for activities :thumbsup:


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## Iriasj2009

Love the progression pics. Great job!


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## kur1j

Dang! This is a pretty amazing transformation. Awesome job! I feel like you are making awesome progression and I'm regressing haha.

Also from Huntsville, AL! For the size of forum...this has a rather large population of north Alabama participants...not that that is a bad thing .


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## raldridge2315

kur1j said:


> Dang! This is a pretty amazing transformation. Awesome job! I feel like you are making awesome progression and I'm regressing haha.
> 
> Also from Huntsville, AL! For the size of forum...this has a rather large population of north Alabama participants...not that that is a bad thing .


+1


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## Movingshrub

July 27th 2017 - 42 days after planting.


I applied another pound of nitrogen per 1k sqft on Sunday and plan to do the same this coming Sunday to continue to push the fill-in rate. I have been hand pulling any crabgrass that pops up and spraying spurge with celsius. I am curious how long it will take to completely fill-in; I'm hoping by the start of September (September 7th will be 84 days since planting.) so I can drop the fertilizer application rates and hopefully put down a pre-em for the fall.


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## dpainter68

raldridge2315 said:


> kur1j said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dang! This is a pretty amazing transformation. Awesome job! I feel like you are making awesome progression and I'm regressing haha.
> 
> Also from Huntsville, AL! For the size of forum...this has a rather large population of north Alabama participants...not that that is a bad thing .
> 
> 
> 
> +1
Click to expand...

+2

Looking good!


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## Movingshrub

I wanted to provide a near end of the season update.

Also, the dark section right of middle in many the photos is due to how my iphone is picking up the light when shooting a panoramic photo. Everything is the same color in person.

42 days after planting


56 days after planting


63 days after planting (Brought the height down from 2.5" to 1.5" It was being cut by someone at 2.5" while I was gone for work for a month)


70 days after planting


77 days after planting


84 days after planting


90 days after planting


99 days after planting


103 days after planting


I had applied one pound of nitrogen, per thousand square feet, every 7-8 days, almost every week. There was one week I skipped cause I was out of town and no one could cover for me. I applied the last fertilizer application of this season on September 27th. I put down 0.75lb of N via an all purpose 19-19-19 fertilizer. I wanted to make sure what I applied included some potassium before the weather turned cold. My goal was to time the nitrogen application about 30 days before the expected first frost.

My plan is to raise from 1.5" to 2.0" over the next month to help the grass endure the winter.

I plan to apply a pre-emergent of Princep 4L (Simazine) along with Monument 75WG for poa annua control.

My tentative plan for the spring is to, scalp, bring in sand and topsoil to level out the settling of the irrigation trenches. I was advised to use oxadiazon as the pre-em until the lawn is established. After the spring green-up, I intend to apply fertilizer, as appropriate, along with t-nex PGR throughout the growing season to encourage the continued establishment of the bermuda and then, ideally, apply prodiamine, simazine, and monument for my pre-em next winter.

I have two areas that didn't fill in very well this year. One is along the entire fence line on the right side of all the photos. I'm unsure if that's due to a lack of light or because I didn't apply sprigs near the fence. I'm curious to see whether that area fills in next year.

The other area is in this photo. I had really bad irrigation coverage of this area at the time of sprigging that I was unaware of so the sprigs dried out and died. I finished the installation of the sprinkler system two days before I got the sprigs, and I still had bugs to work out in terms of finishing up the irrigation system. I fixed the coverage issue about two and a half months later. Since then the area has improve significantly and the bermuda has continued to filled from the perimeter. I expect it to be completely filled in by the end of next summer.



My big picture plan was to get the grass established, then build a deck, and also to install either a privacy fence or some visual barrier plants; one thing at a time.


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## Still learnin

That's some seriously good work. Did I miss what type of Bermuda you went with?


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## Ware

Still learnin said:


> That's some seriously good work. Did I miss what type of Bermuda you went with?


TifTuf


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## Bunnysarefat

Wow, that is looking great. You may have seen my thread, I sodded my backyard with TifTuf in June. I love it so far. I know how satisfying it is to see that green grass after putting in all that work removing trash and doing the irrigation yourself.

I skimmed through the thread again and I didn't see an answer. Why did you choose to sprig instead of sod? I have 6.5k sq ft of TifTuf, the sod itself was about $2.2k for 14 pallets. I installed it myself with help. I saw it looks like you have a little larger area, around 9k you said. Was this a cost savings measure to sprig? Seems like it needed a lot more water and fertilizer.

I don't know about cost, but i would bet sprigging gives you a much smoother lawn right away. What made you go with sprigs?


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## Still learnin

Ware said:


> Still learnin said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's some seriously good work. Did I miss what type of Bermuda you went with?
> 
> 
> 
> TifTuf
Click to expand...

In the title... yeah I'm not that smart.


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## J_nick

Still learnin said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still learnin said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's some seriously good work. Did I miss what type of Bermuda you went with?
> 
> 
> 
> TifTuf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> In the title... yeah I'm not that smart.
Click to expand...

It's alright man, you're Still learnin


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## Ware

Still learnin said:


> In the title... yeah I'm not that smart.


No worries - I've been there.


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> Wow, that is looking great. You may have seen my thread, I sodded my backyard with TifTuf in June. I love it so far. I know how satisfying it is to see that green grass after putting in all that work removing trash and doing the irrigation yourself.
> 
> I skimmed through the thread again and I didn't see an answer. Why did you choose to sprig instead of sod? I have 6.5k sq ft of TifTuf, the sod itself was about $2.2k for 14 pallets. I installed it myself with help. I saw it looks like you have a little larger area, around 9k you said. Was this a cost savings measure to sprig? Seems like it needed a lot more water and fertilizer.
> 
> I don't know about cost, but i would bet sprigging gives you a much smoother lawn right away. What made you go with sprigs?


BLUF - I sprigged because the grass cultivar I wanted to plant did not come as a seed and I expected it to be cheaper than sod.

I do not know if it is smooth, sooner. I did not have enough time for the irrigation trenches to settle, and be filled back up to level, so that is an area that I would have done differently.

There was also the science experiment appeal of the whole thing. Plus if I bought sod, I was still going to have to lay it. Who wants to lay 9,000 sqft of sod by themselves? Broadcasting the sprigs was really easy, which brings me to something I need to clarify. The technical term for what I did is actually called broadcast stolonizing. I took sprigs and spread them over the yard. I DID NOT press them into the ground via way of crimper/disc. I used a sod roller which barely pressed them into contact. Spread out and not pressed in = stolonizing. Pressed in = sprigging.

My yard is really four sections. Approx measurements:
Back yard - 7,000 sqft
Side yard - 1,500 sqft
Front yard -4,500 sqft 
Side walk - 300 sqft

My priority was to make the back yard useable. The side yard was second, and then I had areas in the front yard that were previously covered by english ivy, a sweet gum tree, and a flower bed, which was the lowest priority. The combined area I was hoping to sprig was over 9,000 sqft. The best price I could get 18 pallets of TifTuf Bermuda (500 sqft a pallet), including delivery, was for $3,700.

I bought 200 bushels worth of sprigs for $480.

The key to sprigs is that they have to be kept wet during establishment. I watered from 6am-10pm, 2-3 minutes every hour, and then every 3-4 hours at night, for the first two weeks. There was more to my irrigation timing but that is the basics. My choices were to either install a sprinkler system or pay someone to install a sprinkler system, and then plant sprigs, versus the cost of sod, where I would still need to water 9,000 sqft of sod.

In terms of pricing, I expected the irrigation and sprigs to be cheaper than installing sod. Even if the cost was close, I still had a sprinkler system at the end of the day. However, I would be out the time that could have been used on another project at the house.

I kept track of all my costs.

Prep Costs
Sun light DLI meter (right plant in the right place was the goal) - $76
Sand and top soil to bring up low spots - $150
Toro Dingo and Harley Power Rake for surface prep - $239 (borrowed a friend's trailer)
Fuel - $50
All of the above costs were required whether I went with sod, sprigs, or seed.

Sprinkler System Components - $2,190
Irrigation Trencher 8 hour weekend rental - $205
Toro Dingo and Harley Power Rake for refilling trenches and final grade - $271 (more expensive since I had to rent a trailer this time)
Fuel to get sprigs and the second use of the dingo - $100 (6 hour round trip drive)

Water on my sprinkler meter - $106 (From date of sprigging on June 15th through last water bill on Sep 16th) I did get a fair amount of rain which helped, but I was usually running the sprinklers every hour for 2-3 minutes no matter what. Whether accurate or not, I figured it is hard to drown something that doesn't have roots yet.

So I spent $2,766 to put in a five zone irrigation system. I used Rainbird professional components, SCH 40 PVC for everything since I have a bunch of roots and chipmunks, and a Rainbird ESP-4ME controller which was $120 of my irrigation expense.

Sprigging Expenses
Herbicides - $110 (likely lower if I had used sod)
Sprigs - $480
Tarps to cover the trailer of sprigs - $23
Fertilizer - $150
Home Depot Roller rental - $cost? since is rolled in to some other receipt

Total Cost - $3,529, excluding beer.

I started the day after memorial day and worked every day until June 13th. The 14th was just spent recovering from two weeks of non-stop work. On the 15th I drove to the farm, got the sprigs, and planted that day. In terms of ROI, I probably would have been better off with sod. However, I am incredibly proud of the fact my wife and I installed the sprinkler system, and we learned how to sprig a yard successfully.

I think I just have to add, for my front yard, I only sprigged the bare spots, but if it worked, my plan is to toast the whole front and re-sprig it, so that it is all the same type of grass. The front looked pretty good, other than the bare spots so I did not want to ruin everything, in the event the sprigging did not work well.

It was exhausting installing the sprinkler system (anyone that does the same thing, do all your prep work in the fall and get your materials in advance. June is not the time to do this work in Alabama). Furthermore, I was really anxious that my plan was not going to work. Here is the big piece of it for me - if I had written the check for sod, it would've stung and eventually I would have gotten over it. However, I put in the sweat equity and am incredibly pleased/happy/proud with how it turned out and that feeling has lasted a lot longer than equivalent sting of writing the check.


----------



## J_nick

Can you say transformation? You've done a ton of great work this year :clapping:


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I think J_nick hit the nail on the head with his post, and your write-up was fascinating to follow. I think my expenses in Gatorade are on par with your beer expenses this year


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## Movingshrub

Colonel K0rn said:


> I think J_nick hit the nail on the head with his post, and your write-up was fascinating to follow. I think my expenses in Gatorade are on par with your beer expenses this year


I had cases of gatorade, water, and beer. The key was scheduling their consumption based on the time of the day. If I got the order wrong, it was going to be a short day.


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## Movingshrub

J_nick said:


> It's alright man, you're Still learnin


I can't believe no one ever gave you credit for your play on words here; glad I noticed this in the j_nick of time.


----------



## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> J_nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's alright man, you're Still learnin
> 
> 
> 
> I can't believe no one ever gave you credit for your play on words here; glad I noticed this in the j_nick of time.
Click to expand...

 :lol:


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## Movingshrub

Color difference of TifTuf vs some other type of Bermuda, as of Nov 18th.

My yard is the only completely green Bermuda yard in the neighborhood, and we haven't had a hard frost yet.


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## Movingshrub

Has anyone else established their turf through vegetative propagation, specifically stolonizing or sprigging?

The only person I've seen mention sprigging is @Iriasj2009, so if there is anyone else, please drop a mention so I can contact them.

I am trying to determine if I can use a verticutter to harvest sprigs from my back yard to establish/ replace my mixed turf front yard. My main concern is whether I'll be able to self harvest a sufficient quantity from the back and side areas (8500sqft) to establish the new area (5000sqft) in one season.


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## Wes

I'm pretty sure I read on another forum that @SimonR established his crazy nice yard with sprigs. You might look around for it or reach out to him.


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## Mightyquinn

I don't see why you couldn't do it and if you have any thin areas later in the year you could always "make" some more for those.


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## Movingshrub

@Wes , yeah I read his post on ATY before I sprigged my back and side yard last summer. My yard is significantly bigger so I'm not particularly interested in manually making the sprigs by hand.

One of the challenges I ran into was having a reliable source of supply and then scheduling the pick-up.
For Tif-Tuf, there aren't that many suppliers in the first place. Out of the sod farms that of carry it, only a few would sell sprigs to a residential customer and an even smaller quantity wanted a fair price for the sprigs.
Once I had a supplier, I had to deal with a constantly shifting harvest date due to the rain. Well, rain impacting them didn't always impact me, and vice-versa. Once all the soil prep was complete, I would have loved to planted immediately. Unfortunately, I had several weeks from the time I completed the soil prep until the sod farm was able to harvest. In my particular case, that was somewhat beneficial cause it gave me time to put in the sprinkler system, but now that the sprinkler system is installed, I wouldn't want to grade and level it all on May 1st and then receive the sprigs on June 1st. I also wouldn't want to get called on May 30th telling me come get the sprigs on June 1st, and not yet be ready, so the lynch pin to the self harvesting methods to me is the ability to control your own harvesting schedule.

Has anyone used a dethatcher with a bagger, to product and collect their own sprigs? I can rent a flail blade style with a bagger locally.

I think I might try an experiment stolonizing the grass into my sidewalk strip this season to see how viable the dethatcher collection method works.


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## raldridge2315

According to Dr. Louis Wise, "The Lawn Book," one yard of bermuda or zoyzia sod will yield 2000-3000 sprigs depending on the density of the sod and the size of the sprigs. He goes on to say that is enough to plant 500 to 75 square feet on six inch centers. "one yard of sod is equal to about one bushel of loosely packed sprigs."

I saw in a video where @SimonR raked up the plugs from a plug aerator and used those as sprigs.


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## Iriasj2009

You have a 8k plot to harvest from to sprig a 5k plot, You will definitely have plenty of sprigs to get the job done. Yes the heavier you lay your sprigs the faster the coverage but even at a low rate, you can have a full lawn by the end of the season.

This picture (2.5kft) is just one pass and I had just verticutted 4 weeks prior. You'd be surprise how much material come out. You can use a rotary mower with a bag to pick them up.


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## Movingshrub

@Iriasj2009 - My understanding is that dethatchers/power rakes come in different size/style and I haven't used one before. Will the flailing blade style work? Also, do I need to make passes on a thinner level first to remove legitimate thatch, then come back at a lower level to pull up stolons?


----------



## Iriasj2009

Movingshrub said:


> @Iriasj2009 - My understanding is that dethatchers/power rakes come in different size/style and I haven't used one before. Will the flailing blade style work? Also, do I need to make passes on a thinner level first to remove legitimate thatch, then come back at a lower level to pull up stolons?


 Ive used both before and I think that the flail setup will work as good as the fixed blade. Good question, I wouldn't sprig until the grass is actively growing. My early sprigging project didn't really take off until it really warmed up. So this being said, were you planning on scalping first this season? I would perform my spring scalp first and come may, you should be ready to harvest.


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## Movingshrub

IF, I do this this year, it would involve applying three or four apps of glyphosate, after whatever is there starts to green up. Tilling/manually removing the debris and smoothing out the area, then sprigging. Target planting date would be before Memorial Day

Just to clarify. I would make sure whatever I am trying to kill off has greened up and that the source of sprigs is growing well as well.


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## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> IF When I do this this year, it would will involve applying three or four apps of glyphosate, after whatever is there starts to green up. Tilling/manually removing the debris and smoothing out the area, then sprigging. Target planting date would be before Memorial Day


FIFY. Can't wait! :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub

@Ware , you are welcome to brief my wife that's 27 weeks pregnant, with a due date of late May, on how I should work on that renovation in lieu of being in the delivery room. Let me know how that conversation goes.


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## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> @Ware , you are welcome to brief my wife that's 27 weeks pregnant, with a due date of late May, on how I should work on that renovation in lieu of being in the delivery room. Let me know how that conversation goes.


Just tell her your friends on TLF said it would be fine. :lol:

Mine is 34 weeks. :?


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## Movingshrub

@Ware kudos to you man. I've already tried to put the first born, that's almost 2, to work. 


Just to be clear, it wasn't running, it was cool to touch, and I was supervising.


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## J_nick

Hell my son was running the leaf blower last summer/fall, he turned 2 in October. It was an electric one so no hot parts. Still would almost push him down when he would turn it on :lol:


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## Movingshrub

@J_nick , I've been keeping an electric one around for just that reason! I've spent a lot of time around firearms and helicopters so ear pro is really important to me. How do you get your kids to wear ear pro when using something loud? It's challenging enough to get kids to listen even when they have good hearing.


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## g-man

Most kids learn by example. If they see you wearing ear muff, they will want to wear one too. The same goes with gloves. So, buy stuff in pairs, one for you and one for them. My son has lawn working shoes, ear muff, safety glasses, gloves, sunglasses. He helps me a lot except chemicals. He wants to use the backpack sprayer.


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## Movingshrub

@g-man solid advice. Little eyes and ears are always watching and listening.

I've taught my son trees, grass, shrubs, and so forth.
I will probably regret teaching him crabgrass and Poa Annua; in the neighbors yard of course. Ha!


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## FATC1TY

Movingshrub said:


> @Ware kudos to you man. I've already tried to put the first born, that's almost 2, to work.
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, it wasn't running, it was cool to touch, and I was supervising.


Makes me feel like a bad dad. I let all three of mine use the blower. 4,4,2. They love it and want to help. Absolutely throw fits when I don't let them crank a tool or flip a log on the fire pit.

Maybe my wife was right... I am not smart!!


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## Movingshrub

@FATC1TY I plan to let my son use the electric one but he could barely pick up the gasoline blower during this photo.


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## Movingshrub

Taken today. Last night was the first time we've had a freeze in April since 2009. Come on green up! The area under the tree on the left and all the top dressed areas have already greened up.


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## Movingshrub

Tiftuf on the north side of my house in April. Based on my neighbors fine management practices, the grass doesn't really get much afternoon sun.

There is also a Japanese maple that has failed to leaf this year so it may go away.


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## Greendoc

Start them young. My father unwittingly created a monster in me. That happened when I was 10. By 11, he did not do any mowing or much of anything else. That was for the better, he hated lawns because he had memories of mowing on a 10,000 sq ft lot full of common Bermuda and coarse grassy weeds with a manual reel mower. I horrified him even further when I parked his Craftsman rotary in favor of a manual reel by the time I was 15. Blame my grandmother for that one. Since then, I had an addiction to reel low grass.


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## Movingshrub

For me, it was the exact opposite my family's yard when I was a little kid looked like junk and I refused for my yard as an adult to look like that.


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## Greendoc

There is another facet to this. Father was not mowing low and I did not either until I got the reel, so a lot of time was spent digging out weeds every week. Of course that kind of ended by the time I was 13. By then, the lawn got MSMA, 2,4-D, then a few years after that, Simazine. At that time, I also figured out the best way to maintain low Bermuda was to liquid fertilize every 14 days. I had a lot of practice doing various things on grass before entering the working world. Father was an engineer, so I had some help reengineering various implements so they were above and beyond. Before power sprayers, I still remember him fitting an air valve onto an all stainless Hudson sprayer. No pumping. I would just run into his workshop and stick the tire filler on it.


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## Movingshrub

I plan to use this thread essentially as my lawn journal, rather than starting new threads for every part of my lawn renovation.

My long term plan detailed below will work backwards to current date. I am seeking identification of problems and suggestions on how to improve my plan.

My plan for 2019 is to renovate my front yard, which will involve removing one silver maple (which just broke a major limb and took out power to the house recently), so it's going away, most likely removing the remaining oak tree, and then removing the stumps.

The silver maple is going away within the next 30 days, at weather and schedule allows.

Assuming the oak goes away, it will be removed as funds and schedule allow, but I will probably take it down in a few months. We are expecting an addition to the family soon so time is going to be at a premium.

I plan to renovate in 2019 by harvesting sprigs from my existing stand of bermuda with a verticutter. Seeing as how I've never harvested my own Bermuda sprigs, I plan to use my sidewalk strip as the test run for this year.

Regarding the sidewalk strip, I plan to start spraying mixtures of glyphosate and fusillade II (fluazifop) on two week cycles (Do I need either NIS or MSO for this? The glyphosate contains an NIS I think), starting either April 14th or April 21st. I expected the grass to be fully greened up by this point but North Alabama continues to have frosts, which is a bit atypical for April. I applied 1lb of N on Friday knowing it was likely to rain this weekend. I want the Bermuda to try to grow to encourage uptake of chemicals.

The entire area is 300 sqft - three feet wide - 100' long.

Once the existing zoysia and common bermuda is dead, I need to essentially re-grade the area and I don't know the best way to go about doing it.

The neighborhood installed sidewalks a few years before we purchased the house. The shape of the yard, and the way the sidewalk was installed, has produced a situation where the concrete sidewalk edge varies in the amount that is visible when looking at the house from the street. To better explain, while standing in the street, in one area, the grass is flush with the top of the sidewalk, while 30 feet away, the grass is 2-3" below the top of the sidewalk, so you can see the cutaway edge of the sidewalk.

If I make the topsoil grade flat like a horizon line, the sidewalk edge will be visible.

If I were to try to match the rise and fall in elevation of the soil to match the rise and fall of the sidewalk, I wouldn't know where to begin to create that type of grade.

Also in the mixture, I need to replace a mailbox that was hit by a thief that tied to steel my neighbors trailer.

I need to run conduit and wire to replace the previous wire that powered the lamp on the mailbox.

I need to extend an irrigation line past the mailbox. I didn't do this previously since I was concerned about cutting the power to the mailbox.

I am trying to address all of the digging in a timeline that produced a complete kill of the existing mixture of common bermuda and zoysia, while minimizing my digging, and ideally leaving me with a small leveling project for next year once the area settles.

My goal is to broadcast stolonize the sidewalk area in June. Hopefully I'm not already behind schedule.

Assuming success with the sidewalk area, my plan is to broadcast stolonize the front yard (5000 sqft) next summer. I intend to kill off the turf (some tiftuf, some common bermuda, some zoysia) going into the fall to maximize the kill. If I have to redo the sidewalk section due to a lack of complete bermdua kill, I'm willing to do that. I'm really testing the viability of using the verticutter to harvest sprigs.

For the front yard, I don't know if I need to do multiple apps of glyphosate and fusillade II before dormancy, or if it's split between fall and spring. Assuming all the apps need to be done in the fall, I could use some input on when to apply those.

Then plan after that would be to overseed the area with perennial rye so that I have grass to get me into the growing season for Bermuda (plus I want to see how it looks), at that point, I would smoke the rye with glyphosate, bring in a dingo and a Harley rake to do all of the grading, get the verticutter and harvest from my backyard to plant the front, basically doing a repeat of the backyard from 2017. When is the right time to seed rye grass? Early October? Any suggestions on what type of rye to seed? I'll be using a rotary mower. How often do I have to cut this stuff in the fall and winter?

So to recap -
Do I need to include either NIS or MSO with the fusillade and glyphosate combo? I'd think NIS at a minimum with MSO as an alternative. 
I need help on the timeline for spraying glyphosate and fusillade in the fall.
I need help on timeline for planting rye grass. Driven by temp? GDD? 
How the F do I grade my weird sidewalk?
Should I do the mailbox replacement, extend the irrigation, and run the conduit before, during, or after I start spraying and killing the sidewalk area? I would have liked to have it done months ago, but life got in the way.
Where do I start on perennial rye grass management? Please don't send me to the cool season grass section. It'll be like being the new kid at school.


----------



## Ware

I outlined my winter PRG plan in the first post of this thread.


----------



## J_nick

Can we get a picture of the weird sidewalk? Not seeing a picture I would have dirt level with the sidewalk and the curb, you could even use the 2 for a screed. You'll want it like this once you buy a reel :mrgreen:

Fusilade II can act as a PreM for up to 30 days so take that into consideration if you're going the Rye route. Ware researched and bought A+ quality rye seed for his back yard, Irias went to Home Depot and bought his both looked fantastic so I wouldn't spend much time researching the seed since it will get nuked in the spring anyways.

Best Bermuda kill would be to get 2 apps in before the grass went dormant followed by a spot treatment of whatever grew back in the spring.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

And I thought I had a lot of projects on my plate... don't know about the rye or the technical stuff about your grade but I'm looking to replace my mailbox too at some point. The first place we lived after I got married had mailbox where you had to have a key to access the mail. The mailman could drop it in and it fell into the bottom where you needed a key. Gave a nice piece of mind just to know there's no way anybody took anything. In the 20 minutes total I've spent looking at new ones, I haven't seen one quite like it. Just throwing it out there that those are something to look into. Sweet truck btw.


----------



## Greendoc

The reason why I love brand name expensive RoundUp Pro Maxx is because it becomes the surfactant during an area kill and re do. No need to add anything if that is what you are using. If it is some kind of off patent Glyphosate, I can see needing NIS. One thing to add to either is a quarter cup of Ammonium Sulfate per gallon of spray. This helps both the RoundUp and the Fusilade by reducing interference from minerals in the water.


----------



## Movingshrub

J_nick said:


> Can we get a picture of the weird sidewalk? Not seeing a picture I would have dirt level with the sidewalk and the curb, you could even use the 2 for a screed. You'll want it like this once you buy a reel :mrgreen:
> 
> Fusilade II can act as a PreM for up to 30 days so take that into consideration if you're going the Rye route. Ware researched and bought A+ quality rye seed for his back yard, Irias went to Home Depot and bought his both looked fantastic so I wouldn't spend much time researching the seed since it will get nuked in the spring anyways.
> 
> Best Bermuda kill would be to get 2 apps in before the grass went dormant followed by a spot treatment of whatever grew back in the spring.


I will follow up with a picture of the sidewalk. I am currently out of town for work in PA. I would've posted like I did concerning Dallas, but I have zero presence on the cool season side so I didn't expect much of a bite by anyone. I think the issue is that the sidewalk and curb don't remain parallel along the full length of the yard, but it could just be an illusion. I will measure and photograph.

Concerning the fusillade, I wasn't sure if I'd fall under the 14 or 30 day no seed window per the label. I had forgotten about this so I'm glad you mentioned it. The area would still have turf, in that I didn't turn it into smooth dirt yet, but everything would ideally be 'deader than a doornail' at that point.

Concerning the rye seed, I want to make sure I don't bring in weed seed, and it would be a chance to sell the wife on a year round green turf. With that being said, that plan could bite me in the rear. It is kind of nice not to cut the grass in the winter.


----------



## Movingshrub

Ware said:


> I outlined my winter PRG plan in the first post of this thread.


I read that and was curious just what other remarks I'd get. Your plan was very in depth. I think I less, albeit different constraints. I'm not worried about impact to the Bermuda stand. I won't need to use PGRs. I'm open to the Champion GQ rye (it looks really good in your photos), but I wasn't sure if rye has to be cut with a reel or can I use a rotary mower. I may or may not bother with any pre-em. I'll likely apply after seeding, just to help on poa management.

Like @J_nick pointed out, I need to take into consideration the pre-em impact of fluazifop. My main concern is making sure I manage my timeline correctly, otherwise this will become a 2020 renovation.


----------



## J_nick

I wasn't sure on the 14-30 day PreM window either. I erred on the side of caution and seeded on day 29 after spraying.


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> And I thought I had a lot of projects on my plate...


Based on our conversation in Dallas, we both have a lot going on. Hope you got your issue with the electrical inspector sorted out, or are you using a generator to charge your phone?



Bunnysarefat said:


> don't know about the rye or the technical stuff about your grade but I'm looking to replace my mailbox too at some point. The first place we lived after I got married had mailbox where you had to have a key to access the mail. The mailman could drop it in and it fell into the bottom where you needed a key. Gave a nice piece of mind just to know there's no way anybody took anything. In the 20 minutes total I've spent looking at new ones, I haven't seen one quite like it. Just throwing it out there that those are something to look into. Sweet truck btw.


I'll look into that mailbox style. Most of the houses in our neighborhood had lit mailboxes where it was a combo of light post + mailbox. However, these were all fabrication projects since my city involves a lot of rocket scientists and engineers.

Thanks on the truck. I had to special order the thing - 2017 Tacoma TRD Off-Road V6 4x4 MANUAL transmission. The last part is the lynch pin. They don't make a lot of them since they aren't in high demand. The downside, they are impossible to find. However every vehicle I've owned has been a manual transmission and I'm planning to sticking to that trend as long as I can.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> The reason why I love brand name expensive RoundUp Pro Maxx is because it becomes the surfactant during an area kill and re do. No need to add anything if that is what you are using. If it is some kind of off patent Glyphosate, I can see needing NIS. One thing to add to either is a quarter cup of Ammonium Sulfate per gallon of spray. This helps both the RoundUp and the Fusilade by reducing interference from minerals in the water.


I already have plenty of NIS and generic glyphosate. The fluazifop calls for NIS, and mentions not to use MSO when spraying over the top with ornamentals. I don't have any MSO in my supply closet and am just trying to buy the correct size of container if it's likely that MSO would benefit this application. The goal is to kill the plant. I wouldn't think using MSO over NIS could hurt anything.


----------



## Greendoc

MSO actually gets in the way of Glyphosate. Glyphosate is a highly ionized salt. Oils get into the leaf and hinder absorption of it. Fluazafop is a non polar organic compound that is highly soluble in oil. If I wanted to go all oil based, that would turn into Fusilade + Triclopyr ester + MSO. Not many things that will not kill. You would be ok to add Tenacity or Pylex to that for the Zoysia you are trying to get rid of.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Yeah that electrical issue was a while ago it's all good now.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> MSO actually gets in the way of Glyphosate. Glyphosate is a highly ionized salt. Oils get into the leaf and hinder absorption of it. Fluazafop is a non polar organic compound that is highly soluble in oil. If I wanted to go all oil based, that would turn into Fusilade + Triclopyr ester + MSO. Not many things that will not kill. You would be ok to add Tenacity or Pylex to that for the Zoysia you are trying to get rid of.


NIS + Ammonium Sulfate it is. 
Although, I do have some extra cross bow (2,4-D + Triclopyr) in my supply closet.


----------



## Greendoc

Skip the Crossbow. It has to be straight Triclopyr with no 2,4-D. Fluazafop(Fusilade) and Fenoxaprop(Acclaim Extra) are antagonized by the 2.4-D. Apparently, 2,4-D acts as a physiological antidote to the grass herbicide. I am going to have to kill a 16,000 sq ft lawn bowling green in 2019. The kill mix is going to look like RoundUP, Fusilade, Triclopyr, and Tenacity or Pylex. Contamination by Emerald Zoysia has become an issue. I took over as greenskeeper in fall of 2016. The Zoysia contamination has been there, not addressed and getting worse since the 1990's.


----------



## WBrown999

Movingshrub said:


> I've spent a lot of time around firearms and helicopters so ear pro is really important to me.


I am an audiologist, and it warms my heart that you are modeling this kind of good behavior for your kids. I have seen SO many hearing losses that could have been prevented, mostly from knucklehead 20-somethings who were messing around with firearms. Good for you man!


----------



## Movingshrub

WBrown999 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've spent a lot of time around firearms and helicopters so ear pro is really important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I am an audiologist, and it warms my heart that you are modeling this kind of good behavior for your kids. I have seen SO many hearing losses that could have been prevented, mostly from knucklehead 20-somethings who were messing around with firearms. Good for you man!
Click to expand...

How do you protect their hearing once they get old enough for headphones and earbuds?


----------



## WBrown999

Movingshrub said:


> WBrown999 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've spent a lot of time around firearms and helicopters so ear pro is really important to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I am an audiologist, and it warms my heart that you are modeling this kind of good behavior for your kids. I have seen SO many hearing losses that could have been prevented, mostly from knucklehead 20-somethings who were messing around with firearms. Good for you man!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How do you protect their hearing once they get old enough for headphones and earbuds?
Click to expand...

I can't speak for all products, but the Apple and (most) Samsung products have a volume limit that can be set in the device's settings menu. Won't allow your teen to blast out their hearing!

If that isn't an option, as a general rule, if you can hear the music in their ears when standing next to them, it is too loud!  Just have to keep griping at them.


----------



## Movingshrub

Also, I'm trying to determine - would I be better off coming in with a Harley rake to smooth everything out, then planting the rye, or waiting until the following season, smoking the rye and then using the Harley rake?

I'm leaning towards the second, from the angle of not bringing up a bunch of new weed seeds twice, plus it will allow me to remove the dead debris from the rye easily. Thoughts?


----------



## csbutler

Let me know if you need any help with anything. Looking forward to seeing the end product. :thumbup:


----------



## Movingshrub

I am still trying to develop the kill off schedule. Last year I used just multiple apps of glyphosate per Clemson's control manual.

After reading the article below, I am unsure which route to take on killing off the existing turf.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug1a.pdf

@csbutler, thanks man! I appreciate it.


----------



## Movingshrub

The face you make when the city picks up tree limbs and half your grass.


----------



## Movingshrub

@J_nick two photos of the side walk both taken at the same height from the curb. 


[/url

Do I regrade so that the height sets up the soil to match the green line?

The challenge is that the curb and the top edge of the sidewalk aren't equal distance from one another, in terms of height, the length of the run. Basically the sidewalk has a hill/crest to it, while the curb is completely level.


----------



## J_nick

I would grade it so the soil is flush with the curb and sidewalk even if there is undulations. I would essentially use the top of the sidewalk as one side of a screed and the back of the curb as the other.


----------



## Movingshrub

J_nick said:


> I would grade it so the soil is flush with the curb and sidewalk even if there is undulations. I would essentially use the top of the sidewalk as one side of a screed and the back of the curb as the other.


Thanks. That's exactly what I was trying to determine. Otherwise, I could make the soil height consistent in respect to the curb, but it would reveal the sidewalk sidewall at varying degrees.


----------



## WBrown999

A moment of silence for @Movingshrub


----------



## Movingshrub

WBrown999 said:


> A moment of silence for Movingshrub


That would definitely be the case had I already completed the renovation for this area. Once it finally greens up, I plan to start spraying that entire area with glyphosate and fluazifop to kill it all off.


----------



## Movingshrub

I have two separate renovations I am trying to manage concurrently; sidewalk and front yard.

The sidewalk renovation is intended to be an experiment to ensure I'm able to establish an area by harvesting my own sprigs. If it works, I'll renovate the front yard the same way.

Sidewalk timeline 
April 28th 2018 - Apply glyphosate and fluazifop 
May 19th - Apply glyphosate and fluazifop 
June 9th - Apply glyphosate and fluazifop 
June 16th - Rent verticutter to harvest sprigs and plant; Apply starter fert; Apply 1lb of N weekly
+10-14 days after planting, apply simazine for weed management

Somewhere in that timeline I need to add in topsoil and grade the surface. Do I do that before any of the chemical applications? Do I fit it in between the second and third chemical app?

Front Yard timeline

Pre-requisites
Remove two trees (This needs to be done before June 16th so the city doesn't F up the project by using the claw truck when removing tree limbs.
Remove stumps
Select and order perennial rye seed
Select and order drag mat ( @kur1j I'm eager for you to pull the trigger on that 3x3 or 3x5 drag mat; I need someone local to own one.)
Remove stump debris (lesson learned last year) and backfill holes

Front yard 
2018 (Three week spacing on apps)
July 21st Apply glyphosate and fluazifop (Do I need this application?)
Aug 11th Apply glyphosate and fluazifop 
Sep 1st Apply glyphosate and fluazifop (30 day wait before I can apply seed)
Sep 23rd Apply glyphosate to clean up prior to seeding
Apply rye seed Oct 1st
Nov 30th - Apply prodiamine to get me through May?

2019 - This could shift either direction depending on temperature. My assumption is that planting will occur close to June 1st - this date is unlikely to be earlier but could shift a week or two to the right.

May 1st - Apply glyphosate, fluazifop, and monument to kill off rye and any thing left standing
May 29th - Apply a follow up app of above if needed
June 1st - Rent Harley rake, complete surface prep, rent verticutter, harvest and plant sprigs, apply starter fert at rate of 1LB of N; apply 1LB of N weekly.
+10-14 days after planting, apply simazine for weed management


----------



## gijoe4500

@Movingshrub Why are you pushing nitrogen so hard? Is it just to push for rapid lateral growth at the expense of thatch?

I've been considering the same when I start trying to get my backyard to fill in using plugs in about 4 weeks.


----------



## kur1j

@Movingshrub haha i'm having inner turmoil on what to do haha.


----------



## Movingshrub

gijoe4500 said:


> @Movingshrub Why are you pushing nitrogen so hard? Is it just to push for rapid lateral growth at the expense of thatch?
> 
> I've been considering the same when I start trying to get my backyard to fill in using plugs in about 4 weeks.


I used this document from Univ of TN as my guiding document on nitrogen. https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-D.pdf


----------



## gijoe4500

Movingshrub said:


> gijoe4500 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Movingshrub Why are you pushing nitrogen so hard? Is it just to push for rapid lateral growth at the expense of thatch?
> 
> I've been considering the same when I start trying to get my backyard to fill in using plugs in about 4 weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> I used this document from Univ of TN as my guiding document on nitrogen. https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-D.pdf
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I just found their publication on plugging/sod, and it is different than sprigging. I may still go a little more heavy handed than they recommend, but not as crazy as 1 lbs/1k/week.

Thanks!


----------



## Movingshrub

@gijoe4500 , I did 1Lb of N weekly last year for months during establishment and had done 2lb of N for the first two weeks. Considering how much water I was applying, I wasn't worried about burning and was happy to have the growth. I expected a lot of verticical growth but that was a result I was willing to accept.


----------



## Movingshrub

Wondering if I am going to have too much shade.


----------



## Greendoc

You are easy. I have problems when people insist on keeping all kinds of overhanging and towering [email protected] shading the lawn then tell me they want their grass to look like the Sony Open.


----------



## Movingshrub

The first lesson I learned was Bermuda needs sun light. If you don't have that, nothing else matters.


----------



## Greendoc

I have come to realize all warm season grasses with the exception of St Augustine really need sun light. It gets hard when people want perfectly green and weedless grass at 1/2" but they want to re create Sherwood Forest over it a few miles outside of Honolulu. Not happening. I say either lose the trees or learn to love a more forest like ground cover.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> You are easy. I have problems when people insist on keeping all kinds of overhanging and towering [email protected] shading the lawn then tell me they want their grass to look like the Sony Open.


Pretty sure my lawn projects should have a sign - THIS LAWN BROUGHT TO YOU BY ALEVE, STIHL, AND BUD LIGHT. I've cut down more trees than I can count.


----------



## Greendoc

Hats off to you for getting it done. What really pizzes me off is if these people skip their slots tournament or postpone their trip to Italy til next year, they would have the money to maintain their properties. $5000 for tree removal is what stands between having a lawn or having what looks more like the forest floor.


----------



## Movingshrub

Some progress since yesterday.


----------



## Movingshrub

Almost done with the tree removal. Now just waiting on the city to pick up the limbs over the next two weeks.


----------



## Greendoc

Your city will do that? That is excellent. In my city, tree limbs and anything that will not fit into a city issued 95 gallon green waste refuse cart becomes the homeowner's or else his service provider's problem. If you have a lot of trees that shed leaves and you now have 20 or so bags of trash, that is your TS. Palm fronds TS. Which is why I encourage all of my customers to prioritize and get rid of their trees and palms because those become money suckers every month for disposal of their trash.


----------



## Movingshrub

@Greendoc smart suggestion.

The city will pick up 100 cubic feet of limbs, weekly. There was one point where I think I was using the full amount every week for months straight.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

What's crazy is that when both Hurricane Matthew(2016) and Hurricane Irma(2017) came through, our city didn't have anyone come pick up debris for months, and there were trees down everywhere. Some of the islands surrounding Savannah had debris into March, 6 months after both hurricanes came through. Hilton Head, SC has similar issues on some of the big plantations, and that's a vacation destination with some MASSIVE oaks/palms.


----------



## Greendoc

Movingshrub said:


> @Greendoc smart suggestion.
> 
> The city will pick up 100 cubic feet of limbs, weekly. There was one point where I think I was using the full amount every week for months straight.


I had to terminate maintenance on a beautiful 1/2 acre Centipede lawn back in 2014 because the owner would not get his priorities straight. I told him to trim back or get rid of the 20 big trees in the lawn. Would not do it. He then complained about the increased weeds. I got two hands. Either I maintain the lawn or I play janitor and use the time I have allotted to pick up sticks and rake leaves. At that point he was sent packing. NO LAWN FOR YOU. NEXT!!!!!!!! Last I heard, he was asking one of my chemical vendors for Atrazine. He looked up the weeds that he had now infesting the lawn and decided he needed Atrazine to control them. Prior to 2014, lawn was treated with Dismis+Celsius+Certainty, followed by Tenacity+Basagran, followed by two applications of Sethoxydim. Man had a salad garden complete with contamination by Zoysia and St Augustine. The first two applications destroyed most of the broadleaves and sedges. The Tenacity+ Basagran made me realize how contaminated the lawn was with St Augustine and Zoysia, so I ended up on Sethoxydim. You cannot have St Augustine and Zoysia mixed into a Centipede lawn. Those two grasses will grow way faster than the Centipede and make it look overgrown long before the Centipede. Without the contaminating grasses, the lawn was maintainable at 5/8-3/4" with a 14 day mowing. The neighbors with their chopped down salad gardens started to look bad on the 8th day after mowing. I remember two months in I think January and February where it rained for most of those months. His lawn was the only one that looked good. The others were either overgrown or else full of ruts because the lawn people were driving their Craftsman garden tractors through the mud and rain to keep the weeds mowed down.


----------



## Movingshrub

Trees? What trees?

Now just to grind the stumps, kill everything, grade, sprig, etc...


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Asking a question purely out of curiosity, why not dig them up? I've seen Roger Cook do it on This Old House. I bet Ron Hazelton could do it without getting his blue shirt or khakis dirty.
https://youtu.be/OJ1e-d4gX8A


----------



## Movingshrub

@Colonel K0rn I'll take a look at the video and evaluate that option.
I am unsure which is better as the homeowner. My options seem to include digging up the stumps, renting a grinder or hiring someone with a grinder, getting rid of the stump debris, then backfilling the hole.


----------



## Movingshrub

I threw down a 1/2lb of N on my back and side yard (the areas stolonized in 2017). I applied a full pound of N to the sidewalk strip to stimulate growth. The sidewalk strip is going to get toasted with glyphosate and fluazifop, likely today, and if not today, tomorrow. The sidewalk reno begins!


----------



## Bunnysarefat

I rented a loader with a scoop thing and dug out a stump that we had grinded the year before. The tree was very modest in size, the sump was massive and left a huge hole.


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> I rented a loader with a scoop thing and dug out a stump that we had grinded the year before. The tree was very modest in size, the sump was massive and left a huge hole.


I was weighing the options.

1.. Dig the stumps out by hand.
The two stumps are pretty big. No estimate on how long this will take me. The trees were an oak and maple. The maple's trunk has a diameter of approximately 36". I am guessing the oak base is about 24" diameter.
By doing this, I still have to fill back in the hole and account for settling.

2. Rent the biggest stump grinder around
The rental is $300, plus my time to pick-up, return, run the machine, and then clean up the debris. I expect to run the machine for four to six hours to grind the two stumps based off my experience using the machine last year and the size of the stumps.

3. Hire someone to grind the stumps. I paid $450 total last year to get four stumps removed, one being bigger than the maple. I'm speculating I can get the two stumps removed for a price that's comparable to the rental.

For options two and three, I'll have to rake up and bag the stump debris. Last year I used the harley rake to spread it out over the yard. I don't think that was a wise choice due to the size of the chips, plus the decomposition steals nitrogen. With that being said, there could be some other benefit to the soil that I am unaware of; adds carbon?

Thoughts?

I'm actually leaning towards option 3 since I expect the cost to be comparable and it will involve less of my time. I intend to have the work done sooner rather than later, so the stump debris isn't a barrier to spraying out the bermuda and zoysia later in the summer. Furthermore, I'd like to have and backfilled topstil begin to settle, with the final grade occurring next year prior to planting.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

I dare you to dig it out by hand. Honestly I doubt that's even possible for one man to do. You'd break half a dozen shovels before you finished.


I rented something like this. It had just enough power to remove the stump. Now, this was after it sat in the ground for a year so it may have had time to break down some. And the hole it left was pretty substantial. I rented this for maybe $285 for the day. I think that included delivery and pick up of the machine as well so it was a pretty good deal I thought.

You'd probably be OK grinding it, I just wonder if anybody has run into problems years later with the stump decomposing? My neighbors have a spot in their yard that is really struggling and they believe it's because of a decomposing stump under the turf. But again, not sure if this is a thing or not.


----------



## Greendoc

I do not have good experiences with stump grinding. The area always turns into a hole that swallows sand like no one"s business. If someone has the means to either get an operator or the machine ltself, I say get the stum dug out. I also do not care for what the chippings do to the soil. Soil with a lot of chippings mixed in settles and shrinks once they totally decompose. I say take them out and fill it with material similar in compositon to the rest of the yard,


----------



## Movingshrub

For the chippings, I took the approach of spreading them all over the yard. The issue wasn't so much with the chips decomposing, it was the size of the chips themselves being large. Once they were spread out over the area, I was concerned it would impair rooting at the time of establishment.


----------



## Movingshrub

Just finished cutting down the other stump, and then sprayed the sidewalk with glyphosate and fluazifop.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

So, if you went with option #1, would you qualify for the name of "Movingstumps"?


----------



## SCGrassMan

@Movingshrub I had about a 6" diameter tree dug out of my front yard by the roots last year. The roots were basically a solid gigantic wooden medicine ball. Whomever planted this neighborhood did them all in a row, in a day, by drilling holes and dropping them in.

Anyway, I put an ad on Craigslist. I think within a few hours I had 6 takers at $100 to dig up and haul away the tree for me.

I'm not sure how else to put it, but I'm fairly certain the couple that showed up were meth or heroin addicts. But, in two hours or so, they had this thing dug out by the roots!

Take a pic, put an ad up saying whatever you are willing to pay, and don't make the mistake I did of paying before they haul it away


----------



## Movingshrub

The maple tree's trunk measures 70" across. Anyone gotta wager on the size of the rootball?


----------



## Movingshrub

Colonel K0rn said:


> So, if you went with option #1, would you qualify for the name of "Movingstumps"?


Ha! That's good.

Although it doesn't fit the theme, I am much more likely to end up named - passed out in the front yard with a shovel and sawzall


----------



## Guest

@Movingshrub I may have missed it but what was your light output readings with the dli instruments. Your tiftuf looks fantastic.


----------



## Guest

Movingshrub said:


> The maple tree's trunk measures 70" across. Anyone gotta wager on the size of the rootball?


We lost a large white oak back in hurricane Fran when I was a teenager and the root ball was about 15' tall on one side laying down. So my guess is 25-30' plus  
Best guess I got haha


----------



## Movingshrub

firefighter11 said:


> @Movingshrub I may have missed it but what was your light output readings with the dli instruments. Your tiftuf looks fantastic.


First off, thank you. There are a handful of us with TifTuf am so far I think @Bunnysarefat is the standard bearer on TifTuf, although I'm trying to catch up. However, he soded, where as I did not, and he's running a reel mower, where as I'm using a Honda rotary, and due to that, I am pretty sure our HOC are different.

I am unsure which part of the yard you are curious about; If you want to know a certain area, I will put the DLI meter out and see what I get for the results.

For the front and back yard, right in the open where shade would be incidental from a tree throwing a shadow, I get the max of 30+ DLI every time. Granted, I don't think any of those days were particularly cloudy/overcast. Also, keep in mind that the total DLI varies based on the time of year, hence the link to the Clemson DLI annual calendar in the original post.

I placed the light meter on the north side of my house, about a foot from the wall, and got 15-19 DLI the one day I put it there (which was sometime last week, so lets just say May 1st).

In this area, I put the light meter at the top left corner of the driveway (about 30 feet away from the north wall on the house) and I got the 20-29 DLI range (also early May 2018).


May/June 2017, I recall placing the light meter in this shady area and feeling comfortable with the results. I don't recall the exact number, so I am going to speculate that it was at least 10-14, and considering how the grass is doing in that area, I believe the DLI is likely higher than that. I'll post another photo showing the same area, albeit from ground level.


----------



## Movingshrub

Same area as above, photo taken at noon May 6th 2018


----------



## Movingshrub

Also, I had reached out to the UGA turfgrass breeder inquiring about the DLI requirement and differences of TifTuf and Tifgrand.

The responses I got are:

"Generally, TifTuf is better for homelawns than TifGrand for the simple reason that it is easier to mow at higher heights with a rotary mower. If you intend to mow your lawn below 1" with a reel mower, I would recommend TifGrand."

"TifTuf is more drought tolerant than TifGrand and it recovers better than all bermudagrasses I've tested after it gets injured."

"DLI question: I'll say shade is complicated and different at all locations. In the research we've done here in Tifton, DLI in the full sun in the middle of the summer was ~51. In areas under pine trees with very nice TifTuf, the DLI was still 25. In this same environment, other bermudagrasses were not acceptable looking. In areas under dense Dogwood shade, the DLI was ~13. The TifTuf was acceptable looking, but not great. Neither centipedegrass or other bermudagrasses would grow in the areas with a DLI of 13. As I said at the beginning...complicated!"

By comparison, I had also reached out to the turfgrass dept at Auburn concerning light requirements for each warm season cultivar and received this response.

"For bermudagrass, you want that (DLI) to be at least 20 - maybe TifGrand or TifTuf or Celebration could get by with 18 but most bermudas will look best at 20+. For centipede or zoysia, 15 or so is usually enough. St. Augustine, maybe 12. Actually, some zoysias could probably also go that low. What I would do if it were my lawn is put the light meters out in mid-late May, after the trees leaf out."


----------



## Movingshrub

I used my DLI meter to measure the amount of light reaching the shady area in the photo above. I got a result of 25-29 DLI.

On a different note, I am having crabgrass show up in trenches where I used sand to level. I had applied my pre-em before the sand was spread.

Do I apply another pre-em to provide coverage? Post em only? 
I see my options as:
Broadcast app of Celsius for broadleaf and hopefully crabgrass control.
Potentially include prodiamine
Potentially include simazine
Or I can go post-em only on those areas all year.

I am strongly considering a Celsius, prodiamine, and simazine broadcast app mix.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I'm actually about to treat someone's yard with Dimension (Dithiopyr), which will give PreM and PostM crabgrass control. Not sure about the temps in your area, but it's been 90+ the past few days here.


----------



## Movingshrub

I have a list of items that I want to spray, except I don't know how well they will all play together.
Celsius + NIS, T-next PGR, Deltamethrin insecticide, and maybe prodiamine and simazine.

My plan is to spray prodiamine and simazine over the whole yard to address the crabgrass showing up in the sand.

In a few days, I'll probably follow up with Celsius and NIS and the insecticide at the same time.

I'm thinking the PGR might be a tad early since I have parts of the yard that aren't fully green yet, for some unknown reason. It's been 80F+ for almost two weeks now and I've been irrigating appropriately. I think the weird hot/cold/hot/cold cycle of this season stressed the grass because it's been going to seed constantly all over the yard, even at 1" HOC. I put down a 1/2lb of N about a week and a half ago, so I wouldn't expect there to be a lack of N. I don't know if that's just normal this time of year or driven by the atypical spring weather; ie, when can I expect it to stop going to seed?

Once everything is fully green - PGR, unless there is a benefit to applying sooner.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Seed heads are the nemesis of my mowing program right now. I mowed 3 days ago, and cut off all the heads, and when I mowed again last evening, I had seed heads that were 6" tall. This is getting ridiculous.


----------



## Movingshrub

Mowed today, after mowing on Tuesday, major seed stalks everywhere both days.

I spoke to the Syngenta rep today. He talked me out of using the simazine due to the heat/time of year.

I also spoke to him about primo/t-nex PGR dosage. His response was "Tiftuf eats primo Maxx for lunch."


----------



## kur1j

Where did you get your DLI?


----------



## Movingshrub

kur1j said:


> Where did you get your DLI?


Meaning where did I purchase the meter or where did I get information on what DLI is needed/suggested?


----------



## kur1j

@Movingshrub

Yes to both. Also where did you get your tiftuf?

I'm wanting to fix the northwest side of my house where it gets almost no sun. The idea was to make a flowerbed out of the area where the bermuda won't grow.

Someone suggested to potentially use tiftuf as it's a lot more shade tolerant but I'm nervous introducing a different verity of bermuda as Im not sure how much different it will look. I'm also sure it will invade the 419 so I'm not sure how well they will work together.


----------



## Movingshrub

You're welcome to come check out my place and see the color and how it's grown around different parts of my yard. It allegedly should blend well with 419 but I can't say from personal experience.


----------



## Movingshrub

Seed heads. Seed heads everywhere. Put down PGR last night at 0.38fl oz per 1k sqft. I also applied 1/2lb of N.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

I found the number of seed heads on my tiftuf diminished greatly when I started cutting lower. They also showed up bigly after I scalp.


----------



## Movingshrub

I cut on Friday afternoon. That was Tuesday morning. The grass blades didn't need to be cut. I had to cut because of all the seed-heads. I'm surprised. The lawn has gotten plenty of water. I put down 1/2lb of N about two weeks ago. The temps have been 85F+. 
My guess is that this is due to the weird hot/cold oscillations we experienced in North Alabama.

I was cutting at the second lowest setting on my rotary mower, which is the same setting I used all of last year, without the seed-head issue.

I'm hoping this goes away, ASAP. With that being said, I cut the grass yesterday and put down the PGR later in the evening after it rained. I'm hoping the amount of rain, plus the PGR, plus the nitrogen source, along with temps coming down a few degrees, will let the grass know it isn't about to die.

The part that surprised me the most is that I don't have seed-heads in the irrigation trenches that I topped off/filled with sand in February.


----------



## Movingshrub

One of my neighbors volunteered to help with my renovation.

In all seriousness, I am trying to find the second app to kill everything off. I sprayed two weeks ago. I've seen a few places coming back with green, and I plan to spray with another app of glyphosate and fluazifop, while also including tenacity in the this app. If I do three week spacing, I won't get to sprig until July which is a tad late in my opinion but I do want a complete kill of the existing stand.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Man, between garbage trucks and neighbors who can't keep it between the lines, you're going to have a devil of a time getting those areas to grow  Time to put up some snow stakes?


----------



## Movingshrub

I am practically out of trees to remove and the house with the neighbor that can't drive is allegedly going up for auction in a few weeks; it can't get here soon enough.



I sprayed the second app today hopping to get a complete kill. I'll put some N on it once the spray is dry.


----------



## Movingshrub

I have some areas that are slow coming in this season. I am wondering if it's winter kill, an impact from the trees (although wasn't there in fall), or something like grubs. I did a blanket app of Celsius for broadleaf control. There isn't a take over of broadleaf but just a of lot of little tiny ones that I kept seeing when I would cut the grass. With baby number two expected to arrive an day now, I was hoping the persistence in the soil would help prevent me from having to spot spray for a while. Furthermore, I did an app of PGR earlier in the week, which may impair the repair of those areas in the photo, but I am at a point where I don't have the time to cut 2-3 time a week. I needed to put the brakes on the top growth.

Furthermore, I've got crab grass germinating in the areas where I topdressed, with 2" inches of sand. I didn't bother to come back with another pre-em app in those areas, so I am hoping the Celsius fixes that, otherwise going to spot spray pre-em on those trenches along with quinclorac.


----------



## Movingshrub

Same area as above, 51 weeks ago.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Looking great! It will be looking great before you know it when it warms up. My tiftuf thickens up to infinity when it gets the chance and yours will be there soon.. Good luck with the new baby. Our new baby showed up on Friday. He and mamma are already home and doing great. I've already put down 3lbs or N this month to recover from the leveling and I need to get my PGR down ASAP because mowing availability just became greatly reduced.


----------



## Movingshrub

I am glad to see I'm not the only one that's willing to put down more than 2LB of N a month.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Movingshrub said:


> I have some areas that are slow coming in this season. I am wondering if it's winter kill, an impact from the trees (although wasn't there in fall), or something like grubs.


I blame it on the Octopus. :lol:


----------



## Movingshrub

We have a new addition to the household. I hope she takes after her big brother and loves playing outside in the yard.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Movingshrub said:


>


YES!!! Congratulations brother she looks 👌🏻


----------



## Ral1121

@Movingshrub congrats

Mine was just born on the 25th. Just got home today although I don't have anything near as cool as that towel


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## raldridge2315

Bunnysarefat said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES!!! Congratulations brother she looks 👌🏻
Click to expand...

+1 !!!


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## Movingshrub

Everyone, thanks for the kind words. @Ral1121 congrats! I'm pretty sure @Ware and @Bunnysarefat had recent additions to their households as well. I just know my wife was ALL in for me using PGR with the expectation of baby number two.


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## Movingshrub

I noted on a threat in the irrigation section that I am changing the layout of the sprinkler heads for the sidewalk to address inconsistent coverage.

I have applied two applications of glyphosate, fluazifop, with one including tenacity (Mesotrione) to the area. I will definitely be doing a third application since I have areas still along the edges green after an application ten days ago.



I had to dig up the pipe and relocate the T-joints to move the sprinklers into their correct position. I'm seeking suggestions on how to best encourage settling of the dirt; tamper? roller? The tamper seems too wide for a 3-4" wide trench. The roller seems insufficient for a trench that's 8"+ deep. Walk on it back and forth?

Secondly, is there a suggested method to remove the dead grass prior to planting? A Harley rake is a non-starter in this area. 
I've considered raking but I don't know how well that will do. The other option - and I hate to say it - is running the rotary mower on the lowest possible setting and then using a tiller on the least shallow setting, and using a roller and landscape rake afterwards to smooth the surface.

Furthermore, I'm considering hammering door shims, along the curb side, leaving a 1/4" or so above grade, so as to provide a lip rather than just having the dirt constantly wash over the curb - any thoughts on this?


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## Bunnysarefat

@Movingshrub torch the grass.


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## Bunnysarefat

@Movingshrub torch the grass.


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## Movingshrub

@Bunnysarefat think that will remove enough to provide a good planting surface?


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## Bunnysarefat

Movingshrub said:


> @Bunnysarefat think that will remove enough to provide a good planting surface?


You can crank it up to 11 and there will be nothing left. And as far as the settling, I don't really think there is a short cut for natural settling. The best way to speed it up, in my experience, I used a trencher vs. used a shovel to remove the dirt, the trencher chopped up the dirt into little pieces which sped up the settling process. The shovel was pulling out big blocks of dirt that took a while to break down. Obviously this is soil dependent. I think you can just spray blast it with water and let it dry out, repeat, to speed up settling.


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## Movingshrub

Good point about the size of the dirt clumps. I may just walk on it a bunch to encourage settling and then run some sprinkler cycles to encourage settling.


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## Guest

Are you planning to do the sprigs on this like the rest of your yard? Could you get tiftuf pieces by the roll and do a larger section to get it to take hold a bit faster? I have very similiar clumpy dirt in the back yard and i quite awhile raking it out to get rid of the clumps. Thats not a very big section to have to rake so it should go fast to get it cleaned out if thats how you choose to do it. Maybe just the black bed edging stuff dug in to like 1/2" showing would work. In the inlaws neighborhood all of the houses have decorative white link chain and posts along the edges and it usually keeps the tire tracks out.


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## Movingshrub

Yeah I am planning to sprig the sidewalk this year. Last year I got the sprigs from a sodfarm. I am hoping to harvest my own by using a power rake/verticutter to pull stolons from existing TifTuf stand. If the self-harvesting method works, then I intend to chemically kill off the multi grass front yard going into the fall, with some clean-up applications in the spring, before sprigging it as well.

From a convenience angle, I think my easiest route would be to sod the sidewalk. The area is 300 sqft. We are talking 2/3rd of a pallet. However, the sidewalk is really my test area before killing off the whole front yard. I've got the irrigation system in the entire area and I'm not in a hurry. I've already done the stolonizing route once so I feel comfortable doing it again, plus it's a significantly cheaper option. Sod would be $2600, excluding any charge for delivery, the prep work is all the same, and then you have to lay it and still keep it wet. The power rake is $70.

The front yard project might get punted to 2020, depending on time and availability of funds. I am trying to figure out how to run a dingo with a toddler in a backpack or a newborn strapped to my chest (ear muffs non-optional for everyone) or whether I'd be better off running the dingo at night with a headlamp and pissing off the neighbors. I am unsure where I am going to find the free time otherwise.

I'll consider the black bed edging stuff. I was trying to think of what would give me a very small lip. If I was going for large lip, I'd just use scrap PT 2x4's and stake them into the ground. I don't want the side view to have 2" of dirt, then grass - my goal is for the dirt to be flush with the curb.


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## Movingshrub

The Kentucky bluegrass is starting to come in really well. I added extra iron to make the blue really pop.


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## raldridge2315

Movingshrub said:


> The Kentucky bluegrass is starting to come in really well. I added extra iron to make the blue really pop.


 :lol:


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## Greendoc

Now mow it at 5/8 with a GM like how @wardconnor does and you are all set. What is done in my state when dirt is too high and sod not flush with the sidewalks, is excavation. Dirt is dug out so the sod will lay and be level with the concrete.


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## Movingshrub

I applied a 1/2LB of N to the sidewalk area then sprayed fluazifop (24floz to the acre), glyphosate (2.5oz per 300sqft), and tenacity (8oz to the acre). It rained two hours later. I think I am good on the fluazifop. Anyone know the rainfast time for tenacity or generic 41% HDX glyphosate? I used an 80/20 NIS if that matters.


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## Greendoc

You should be alright. Tenacity and Fusilade are also systemic through the soil. That is why I told you to add those herbicides. They will get to the underground rhizomes that the Glyphosate will miss. Glyphosate tends to miss Bermuda, Seashore Paspalum, and Zoysia rhizomes. It also misses the tubers of Nutsedge.


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## Movingshrub

Then why even bother with glyphosate if it misses the main targets of its application?


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## Greendoc

Faster action and synergistic effect. Fusilade and Tenacity go after roots, Glyphosate after foliage. I have seen grass killed by Fusilade alone as in when I apply over the top of ground cover beds. After 30-60 days, the grass may look kind of green, but it just detaches from the soil if raked or pulled.


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## Movingshrub

I had a timeline for my sidewalk renovation and was reminded that no battle plan ever survives contact with the enemy.

@J_nick Was there any particular strategy to your fusillade application? You didn't apply in the previous fall, did you?

What's actually happened -
Sidewalk timeline 
April 28th 2018  May 2nd - Apply glyphosate and fluazifop
May 9th - Apply 1 lb of N
May 19th - Apply glyphosate, fluazifop, tenacity and 1 lb of N
May 30th - Apply glyphosate, fluazifop, tenacity and 1 lb of N
June 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th - Relocate sprinkler heads
Resorted to using tiller to break up large chunks of dirt after chipping away slowly with a rake and hoe, attempted to smooth everything out with a landscape rake. I'll likely be running the irrigation to try to encourage settling (no rain in the forecast at time of writing).
June 9th June ?th - Apply glyphosate, fluazifop, and one pound of N
June 16th, at the latest - Finally application of glyphosate

June 16th June 22nd-24th- Rent verticutter to harvest sprigs and plant; Apply starter fert; Apply 1 lb of N weekly;
I'm considering applying quinclorac prior to sprigging or simazine +10-14 days after planting for weed management

My sprigging timeline shifted due to the use of tenacity. I called Syngenta and inquired if there was a wait period before sprigging bermuda. They advised me to wait 21 days, so last tenacity app on May 30th + 21 days = June 22nd
If that 21 day wait period is bogus, then in theory, I could sprig tomorrow, except, my schedule doesn't allow, so June 15th would be the earliest.

I would prefer this project start as soon as possible because its degree of success impacts the timeline of my 2018-2019 front lawn renovation.


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## Movingshrub

Now for the second piece of the reno - the front yard timeline

Pre-requisites
Remove two trees (This needs to be done before June 16th so the city doesn't F up the project by using the claw truck when removing tree limbs - DONE

Remove stumps - HAHAHAHAHA - Definitely not done.

Select and order perennial rye seed - I was able to find all kinds of info on different bermuda grass cultivars but there are so F'ing many types of rye grass, that I'm having a hard time making a selection. I'd love any suggestions on where to start on this one.

Select and order drag mat - leaning towards 3x5 but just need to pull the trigger.

Remove stump debris (lesson learned last year) and backfill holes - still evaluating digging vs grinding the stumps

I am trying to backwards plan this based on some assumptions.
The guidance I saw was to seed 30 days before the first frost.
I checked the frost dates for my city.
10% chance of frost on Oct 12th
50% by Oct 28th
90% by Nov 17th

I am planning to use the Oct 28th date, because 30 days prior (late Sep/early Oct) historical has temps in the 60F-75F.

My concern is whether I have to wait 14 or 30 days between the last fusillade application and applying the seed. The label reads as, "For established turf, do not reseed desirable grasses to treated areas for 14 days following the application. For bare ground areas which have been treated, wait 30 days to reseed."

Assuming 14 day wait
Aug 25th - Apply glyphosate, fusilade, and tenacity
Sep 15th - Apply glyphosate, fusilade, and tenacity
Sep 22nd - Apply glyphosate and maybe tenacity
Sep 30th - Spread rye seed

Assuming 30 day wait
Aug 11th - Apply glyphosate, fusilade, and tenacity
Sep 1st - Apply glyphosate, fusilade, and tenacity
Sep 22nd - Apply glyphosate and maybe tenacity
Sep 30th - Spread rye seed

Nov 30th - Apply prodiamine to get me through April/May and help reduce poa

The other aspect - I'm debating whether to overseed the entire yard or just the front where I'm killing everything off.
From an aesthetics angle, seeding everywhere would look nice. However, it costs more and will require cutting the grass during a time of year where I traditionally would not. Lastly, I was unsure whether having rye grass in an area where I'm going to pull the sprigs from would place the bermdua at a noticeable disadvantage going into the growing season.
This may just depend on how the turf looks going into September.


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## kur1j

Impressive. So this is the sidewalk we were talking about. I think you said the plan is to nuke the front yard as well if this is successful?

How is the back lawn looking? Are you plan on leveling it?


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## Movingshrub

kur1j said:


> Impressive. So this is the sidewalk we were talking about. I think you said the plan is to nuke the front yard as well if this is successful?
> 
> How is the back lawn looking? Are you plan on leveling it?


Exactly. If the sidewalk works, then the front is next.

The backyard is looking better, although it needs more sand.


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## Colonel K0rn

Ignore this post


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## Movingshrub

I damaged a sprinkler head while digging up the irrigation line and added an additional sprinkler. As a result, I had to order to sprinklers which arrived on Friday. I finished the irrigation re-installation over the weekend and worked to level and prep the planting surface.

I did used a tiller to break up the dirt clods that were produced from digging up the irrigation line by hand. My assumption is that by using a tiller on the entire area, the settling will be lumpy rather than a trench; TBD.

I also picked up a 5 gallon bucket of rocks and raked up as many stolons as I could just to make the surface clean.

The goal is the sprig the weekend after Father's Day, weather permitting.


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## Movingshrub

I scouted out the available dethatchers available to rent locally.

The orange big box store has a dethatch/overseeder where I can rent it for 24h for $80.

One of the locally rental places has several of the bluebird dethatchers.

Option 1 18" wide and has a bagger - This has flail blades. Blade depth is 1/8th to 1/2" $60+tax
Option 2 20" wide - no bag - has delta blades. Blade depth is 1/8th to 1/2" $60+tax
Option 3 22" wide - no bag - has delta blades. Blade depth is 1/8th to 1/2" $64+tax

Alternative local rental place
Option 4 18" wide - no bag - has delta blades. Blade depth is 1/8th to 1/2" $55+tax

I am strongly leaning towards option 1, since it will also cut down on the amount of raking I'll have to do when harvesting.

Also, is there any benefit to throwing down nitrogen fert a few days prior to sprigging? I would think that would allow the nitrogen to change to a form that is able to be taken up by the plant sooner, rather than waiting until the time of planting.

@Greendoc My understanding is that the flail blades are the more aggressive of the two. Any reason why I'd use one style of blade over the other?

@J_nick For your dethatcher, your homemade dethatcher blade style is flail style as well, right?

My goal is to sprig this weekend and topdress with sand. I am still trying to evaluate whether to use simazine and/or quinclorac for weed control.

Also, I was finally able to install my new mailbox post this morning. I still need to attach the mailbox bracket, mailbox, cut the post to the necessary height, install conduit, the light fixture, and backfill the hole.


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## Bunnysarefat

I spot sprayed quinchlorac/msm at the label rate and it did some pretty good damage to my TifTuf. I'm not real impressed with quinchlorac.


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## Greendoc

Flail blades pull out material. Fixed blades cut cleaner grooves.


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## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> I spot sprayed quinchlorac/msm at the label rate and it did some pretty good damage to my TifTuf. I'm not real impressed with quinchlorac.


I've just been very curious considering the label says it can be used pre-plant or post-plant for sprigging. There's some documents from Clemson that talk about quinclorac being used pre-plant. Simazine also says it can be used for sprigging but after 3-4+ days after planting. However, I've never known either of those chemicals to be extremely friendly to hybrid Bermuda. I'll probably just hand-weed the area considering it's 300 sqft, or maybe spray simazine after one or two weeks.


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## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Flail blades pull out material. Fixed blades cut cleaner grooves.


Flail blades it is!

Thoughts on applying N sources early?


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## J_nick

My Bluebird came with flail blades. The blades I made for it are fixed like the delta blades.


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## raldridge2315

Movingshrub said:


> Thoughts on applying N sources early?


Seems to me that something like 10-10-10 for pre-planting would be better .... then follow up with straight N in the weeks to follow once you see rooting.


----------



## Movingshrub

raldridge2315 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on applying N sources early?
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me that something like 10-10-10 for pre-planting would be better .... then follow up with straight N in the weeks to follow once you see rooting.
Click to expand...

Good point on the all purpose. I've got some I've been needing to put to use anyways. Plus I need to till in some lime. The plan will be 1lb of straight N per week, for three weeks, then 1lb of N all purpose on the fourth week; repeat.

On a different note, last time I used a lawn roller with very poor results. The ground was soaking wet and ended up with clods of mud and sprigs sticking to the roller. This year I plan to top dress with sand, considering the area is only 300 sqft. I am very curious to see if the rate of establishment is faster this time around.


----------



## raldridge2315

Movingshrub said:


> raldridge2315 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on applying N sources early?
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to me that something like 10-10-10 for pre-planting would be better .... then follow up with straight N in the weeks to follow once you see rooting.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point on the all purpose. I've got some I've been needing to put to use anyways. Plus I need to till in some lime. The plan will be 1lb of straight N per week, for three weeks, then 1lb of N all purpose on the fourth week; repeat.
> 
> On a different note, last time I used a lawn roller with very poor results. The ground was soaking wet and ended up with clods of mud and sprigs sticking to the roller. This year I plan to top dress with sand, considering the area is only 300 sqft. I am very curious to see if the rate of establishment is faster this time around.
Click to expand...

Rollers and red clay don't get along. I've always had better results with sand. With all of the rain we are having today and what is forecast for tomorrow, I think you weekend plan may be in jeopardy.


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## Movingshrub

raldridge2315 said:


> Rollers and red clay don't get along.


You nailed it.



raldridge2315 said:


> With all of the rain we are having today and what is forecast for tomorrow, I think you weekend plan may be in jeopardy.


Rain I can handle. Hail, lightening, and downpours are another story. My plan was to get sand tomorrow first thing in the morning (6am), start spreading it over my lawn to fill in some trenches, get more sand if I have time, and then pick up the dethatcher either Friday afternoon or Saturday morning. This will likely be a very fluid plan due to the weather.


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## Movingshrub

When you try to time your PGR rebound with when you intend to dethatch and topdress...uhh, nailed it?


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## Bunnysarefat

Nice man. Looks great! Good color too.


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## kur1j

@Movingshrub Damn that looks good.


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## Movingshrub

For any of you guys that have used a detacher to harvest sprigs, did you do a pass first to remove all the thatch and then come back with the second pass to actually get the sprigs? I feel like I am getting all junk but I've got the machine so low that the engine bogs down. 

@Greendoc @J_nick
@viva_oldtrafford


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## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Flail blades pull out material. Fixed blades cut cleaner grooves.


I suppose I should have asked for clarification on this one. Which would you think is better for harvesting sprigs?


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## Iriasj2009

I detached, cleaned up, mowed then ran the detacher set at .25" below ground level to harvest sprigs. I did use fixed blades tho but I think u can get cleaner sprigs by doing this.


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## Movingshrub

I ended up cutting at the lowest settting available on my mower then running the dethatcher. I had to manually rake up the sprigs cause the bagging feature didn't work that well on the dethatcher. Next the sprigs went down on the sidewalk and then I topdressed with sand. I plan to put down some starter fert once it stops raining.


----------



## Greendoc

Movingshrub said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Flail blades pull out material. Fixed blades cut cleaner grooves.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should have asked for clarification on this one. Which would you think is better for harvesting sprigs?
Click to expand...

The Delta or fixed blades. When I am talking about dethatching, my idea is to tear down the existing material til I see dirt. Flail blades do that best. Fixed blades cut nice, neat grooves in the ground and are minimally disruptive to the existing grass. So if I were to have a sprig harvesting operation where I was growing a field for sprigs, my harvesting would be done with the fixed blades. I want the field to grow back asap so I can take sprigs again.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> Flail blades pull out material. Fixed blades cut cleaner grooves.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose I should have asked for clarification on this one. Which would you think is better for harvesting sprigs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The Delta or fixed blades. When I am talking about dethatching, my idea is to tear down the existing material til I see dirt. Flail blades do that best. Fixed blades cut nice, neat grooves in the ground and are minimally disruptive to the existing grass. So if I were to have a sprig harvesting operation where I was growing a field for sprigs, my harvesting would be done with the fixed blades. I want the field to grow back asap so I can take sprigs again.
Click to expand...

Lesson learned. I used the flail blades since the machine had a bagger.

Next time probably just going to buy the sprigs due to the size of the yard. The area is 4500 sqft, and it's seven hours round trip for the sprigs. I do wonder how many plugs I could plant in seven hours and whether the coverage would be faster or slow with plugs vs sprigs. I read competing answers on which provides faster coverage.


----------



## Movingshrub

I'm trying to plan on my sourcing of sprigs for next year and apparently I like experiments.

The dethatcher method was a pain in the rear. It worked for a 300 sqft section. I don't know if I' want to try to use it for a 4500 sqft section that I'm planning to renovate next year.

For the sake of discussion lets assume no change in suppliers or pricing for 2019 
Sod farm I used in 2017 - 7 hours round trip; sprigs were $2.40 a bushel
Sod farm I could use in 2019 - 9 hours round trip; sprigs are currently $3.50 a bushel.
I expect to use 100 bushels, so $240 or $350.

My concern is the survival rate during transportation. Last year the sprigs were harvested around 8am, and I had them on the ground by 2pm. They were covered with a tarp and it was raining off and on during the drive.

I read this article where it touches on exposure and delayed planting impacting the number of live sprigs (odd that didn't notice their misspelling on the table in the PDF)
https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p2711_0.pdf

My alternative option would be to purchase a pallet of sprigs (2 hour round trip) and rent a wood chipper.
The pallet would be $200 for 500 sqft of sod. The wood chipper rental is $100. This isn't necessarily a cost saver, but potentially a time saver. Mainly, I'm just curious if it would work without clogging. My understanding is that 5 sqft = 1 bushel of sprigs, so one pallet should do the job.

Which brings me ultimately to my question - Has anyone ever made their own sprigs using a wood chipper/shreader, or has anyone just tried putting a piece of sod into a wood chipper? I'm looking at renting a 3" version that is gravity fed from the top.


----------



## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> ...I'm looking at renting a 3" version that is gravity fed from the top.


Like the one in Fargo?


----------



## Movingshrub

Ware said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I'm looking at renting a 3" version that is gravity fed from the top.
> 
> 
> 
> Like the one in Fargo?
Click to expand...

NAILED IT.

Although, I may need something beefier than that one; It clearly wouldn't cut through a tibia.


----------



## Guest

what about plugging from what you already have. I'm doing the same thing with the half pallet I started with. Being on a budget has changed my original plan but I do love the look of tiftuf. I put a little strip of tifgrand on the side of my driveway I share with the neighbor. It was really showing it's drought stress these past few weeks here and the tiftuf was looking strong as can be.


----------



## Movingshrub

firefighter11 said:


> what about plugging from what you already have. I'm doing the same thing with the half pallet I started with. Being on a budget has changed my original plan but I do love the look of tiftuf. I put a little strip of tifgrand on the side of my driveway I share with the neighbor. It was really showing it's drought stress these past few weeks here and the tiftuf was looking strong as can be.


That's another consideration.

I'm not expecting you to answer these questions, but these are the considerations that are driving my decision: 
How long will it take to plug 4500 sqft, and what is that rate of establishment compared to that of sprigs? Variable of course is density of plugs. Furthermore, I would need the plugged area to recover. The upside I see is less water being used.

My general understanding though is that sprigs are the fastest method of establishment compared to sod. I could be entirely wrong on this though. The other aspect to consider is - once I decided on a cultivar that was only available via vegetative propagation, whether plugs or sprigs were faster or slower than seed didn't matter since seed wasn't an option for that cultivar. So basically, between plugs or sprigs, I assumed sprigs were faster in terms of rate of establishment and rate of installation.

If anyone with some industry experience versus my limited homeowner experience wants to chime in on that, I'd love to hear it.


----------



## Movingshrub

Based on some quick searching it looks like I'd need between 2000 and 2500 plugs. Any one have an idea how long that would take to harvest and plant? Time to form the North Alabama Army of Pro-pluggers?


----------



## Greendoc

Movingshrub said:


> I'm trying to plan on my sourcing of sprigs for next year and apparently I like experiments.
> 
> The dethatcher method was a pain in the rear. It worked for a 300 sqft section. I don't know if I' want to try to use it for a 4500 sqft section that I'm planning to renovate next year.
> 
> For the sake of discussion lets assume no change in suppliers or pricing for 2019
> Sod farm I used in 2017 - 7 hours round trip; sprigs were $2.40 a bushel
> Sod farm I could use in 2019 - 9 hours round trip; sprigs are currently $3.50 a bushel.
> I expect to use 100 bushels, so $240 or $350.
> 
> My concern is the survival rate during transportation. Last year the sprigs were harvested around 8am, and I had them on the ground by 2pm. They were covered with a tarp and it was raining off and on during the drive.
> 
> I read this article where it touches on exposure and delayed planting impacting the number of live sprigs (odd that didn't notice their misspelling on the table in the PDF)
> https://extension.msstate.edu/sites/default/files/publications/publications/p2711_0.pdf
> 
> My alternative option would be to purchase a pallet of sprigs (2 hour round trip) and rent a wood chipper.
> The pallet would be $200 for 500 sqft of sod. The wood chipper rental is $100. This isn't necessarily a cost saver, but potentially a time saver. Mainly, I'm just curious if it would work without clogging. My understanding is that 5 sqft = 1 bushel of sprigs, so one pallet should do the job.
> 
> Which brings me ultimately to my question - Has anyone ever made their own sprigs using a wood chipper/shreader, or has anyone just tried putting a piece of sod into a wood chipper? I'm looking at renting a 3" version that is gravity fed from the top.


The sod growers that know what they are doing do not mess around with harvesting sprigs with dethatchers. They throw pieces of sod into a chipper shredder. Even Zoysia sod. Bermuda should be a lot easier..


----------



## Movingshrub

@Greendoc I've seen full on sprig harvesting machines. Why would sod growers mess around with a sod cutter and wood chipper when there are specialized machines for this task?


----------



## Greendoc

Small orders. One of my growers had to ship enough sprigs to do a couple of greens. He had to pressure wash all of the soil off of the sod first, then shred it. Quarantine rules prohibit transport of soil between islands.


----------



## Movingshrub

Just a thought - anyone know if there is value to spraying nitrogen rather than doing a granular application since there are essentially no roots for sprigs? The application rate suggested is 1lb of N per week, in what I assume is a granular application. Would applying foliar N during grow in be value added during this time versus once established?


----------



## Greendoc

If no roots, I would be spraying N at 1/10th lb N per week. That is as much N as can be absorbed by leaves. Pouring 1 lb of N on the ground when there are no roots to take it up is polluting.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Pouring 1 lb of N on the ground when there are no roots to take it up is polluting.


and yet that's exactly what's recommended by the university. That may be operating under an assumption that foliar isn't an option for whoever reading the article.

I'll definitely consider the foliar app approach.


----------



## Greendoc

Universities can be the turf industry's worst enemy. How is it that I can figure out that 1 lb of N on an area that has nothing but dirt and grass clippings will not retain a lot of Nitrogen. Furthermore, what else is the grass going to need? I can tell you that the grass also needs P K and micronutrients at that time. You are essentially growing the grass like hydroponic tomatoes. I use 20-20-20 at low rates during grow in. Mine is spray grade normally used in greenhouses and nurseries.


----------



## Movingshrub

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-D.pdf

Three weeks of straight N.
Fourth week is all purpose.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Universities can be the turf industry's worst enemy. How is it that I can figure out that 1 lb of N on an area that has nothing but dirt and grass clippings will not retain a lot of Nitrogen. Furthermore, what else is the grass going to need? I can tell you that the grass also needs P K and micronutrients at that time. You are essentially growing the grass like hydroponic tomatoes. I use 20-20-20 at low rates during grow in. Mine is spray grade normally used in greenhouses and nurseries.


The other thing that crosses my mind is the lead time between application and conversation to a useable N source. I am surprised it isn't sprig then immediately apply foliar nutrients, with set reapplication intervals, with an eventual transition to non foliar app, or at least a change in nutrients once the plant starts to put down roots.


----------



## Greendoc

P and K deficiency can be observed the week after sprigs are on the ground. I did not spend a lot of my day behind a greensmower like how I do now. Prior to 2007, a lot of what I did was manage grow in from sprigs. Bermuda, Seashore Paspalum, and Zoysia. Their weed control recommendations are on point, the fertilizer rates are going to pollute the waterways all around the grow in site.

The Peters 20-20-20 that I would use contains N in Ammonium, Nitrate, and Urea forms. The grass is going to utilize at least one of those sources. Nitrates and Urea are taken up very well by leaves. Whatever Ammonium is not absorbed then is held by the soil.

The universities do write their recommendations with the assumption that someone absolutely will not spray any applications. That some knuckle dragger will be managing the grow in. Then they meet someone like me. I literally do not have a fertilizer spreader. If I do, it is one of those hand held ones. I use it for spot applications of insect granules and snail bait.


----------



## Movingshrub

@Greendoc 
What do I gain by foliar application of grow in versus continuing to throw granular apps? The sooner the grow-in, the less erosion, so if I can speed it up, I'd like to know.

Going to ask for some intellectual heavy lifting from you since I know zilch on this one. If there is a benefit to the establishment rate by foliar apps vs granular, I don't know what or how much of each nutrient I need to be applying, on what schedule. I'm assuming I need to hit NPK and the micros. I saw your post about applying 1/10th of a pound of N weekly. This area is small (300sqft). I could split it into biweekly 0.05lb's worth of N if that's of any benefit as well.

I've been eying the Peter's product you mentioned but also saw Southern Ag's Power Pack 20-20-20 water soluble fert. Other than the magnesium, in the peter's product, they look very comparable. Any reason to pick one over the other?

Lastly, due to the generosity of @kur1j I have some Axilo Mix 5, Sprint 330, and FEature 6-0-0 that can be used if I need to supplement any other nutrients.

Southern Ag Power pack 20-20-20
Ammoniacal Nitrogen 6.00% 
Nitrate Nitrogen 5.98%
Urea Nitrogen 8.02%

Phosphate 20%
Soluble Potash 20%
Chlorine Not more than 1%
Boron 0.02%
Chelated Copper 0.05%
Chelated Iron 0.10%
Chelated Manganese 0.05%
Molybdenum 0.0005%
Zinc 0.05%

Peters 20-20-20
Ammoniacal Nitrogen 4.1% 
Nitrate Nitrogen 5.5% 
Urea Nitrogen 10.4%

Phosphate 20%
Soluble Potash 20%

Boron 0.0125%
Chelated Copper 0.0125%
Chelated Iron 0.025%
Chelated Manganese 0.025%
Molybdenum 0.005%
Zinc 0.025%
Magnesium 0.05%


----------



## Greendoc

Less waste, less environmental pollution and less cost. 1 lb of N as granules is a lot of money to be running down to waterways. 
It also works faster than granules.

As for the actual 20-20-20, I say use whatever is the most available and least costly. For various reasons, Southern Ag products are non existent in my state. I have Peters.


----------



## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Less waste, less environmental pollution and less cost. 1 lb of N as granules is a lot of money to be running down to waterways.
> It also works faster than granules.
> 
> As for the actual 20-20-20, I say use whatever is the most available and least costly. For various reasons, Southern Ag products are non existent in my state. I have Peters.


Thank you for the response.

Both brands are available in my area, but Southern ag is significantly easier for me to find.

I understand the waste and pollution aspect. I'm asking about effectiveness. If I apply 1lb of N granularly and 1/10th of a pound is absorbed, or I spray 1/10th of a pound of N and all of it's absorbed, the plants got the same amount.

Will a stolon and/or leaf absorb potassium or phosphorus or is that only absorbed via the root system? If it's only nitrogen, I'm going to just mix some soluble AS and the Axilo mix 5 and spray away.


----------



## Greendoc

1/10th is absorbed as a spray. As for the other elements, they are also absorbed. A lot of field crops are sprayed with foliar NPK to treat deficiencies that occur after soil applied fertilizers have already been applied prior to or during planting.

The value of sprayed NPK was illustrated to me dealing with Phosphorus deficiency appearing in Zoysia stolons installed on soil that should have been limed and fertilized prior to planting. The new leaves and shoots turning bright purple just like the corn in my college soil fertility demo where plants were deliberately shorted one element. Spray and a week later, the Zoysia is green again. Loading the soil with granular 10-30-10 or 16-15-15 would not do the same because the soil would lock it up.


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## Movingshrub

Greendoc said:


> Loading the soil with granular 10-30-10 or 16-15-15 would not do the same because the soil would lock it up.


Good to know. I was wondering why soil wasn't front loaded with fertilizer prior to planting, considering lime is done prior to planting.


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## Greendoc

OK, I ran you through a pretty intense kill out process. What I like to see done to ground being prepped nutrient wise is just as intense. What you read about me doing involves fixing things when someone did things half @ssed and things are going badly. Now I am there because a paying customer wants things corrected and tearing it up, then doing it over is not an option because the installer/landscaper either left the state or else is not willing to do it over. If you do not want to have to spray all of this stuff, here's what you do. Correct soil pH to 6.5. This may mean sulfur or else lime. Once pH is corrected, I want to apply 200 lb per acre of 16-15-15. Planting stolons on this means your first feeding can be with just 1/10 lb N and maybe some micronutrients. First feeding can also be delayed 2-3 weeks as well. With Sod costing what it does in Hawaii, many areas over 1000 sq ft have been installed via stolonizing.


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## Movingshrub

On the kill out process, last year, I used Clemson's recommendation of multiple glyphosate apps. This time, before our conversation, I intended to use fusillade as well. After our convo, I included tenacity to the mix. I would have purchased triclopyr as well but expect to apply over the root zone of trees, and am apprehensive. Lastly, I know you suggested sencor and pylex but those felt cost prohibitive.

When I kill the last section to replace, I am planning on AMS, glyphosate, fusillade, tenacity, and either NIS or potentially an MSO based HSOC assuming it won't antagonize the glyphosate.

I've already started on moving the pH for that area. I've got a few bags of 19-19-19 all purpose that I can apply. Is the goal to apply at .75lb of N? Any timeline on when to apply that prior to sprigging/stolonizing? I figured different nutrients release at different rates.


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## Greendoc

I apply granular fertilizer a week before stolonizing. Assuming that is rapid release AG or garden fertilizer that is enough time for it to work. The goal is to get down 0.75 lb NPK. Even if the soil tests show adequate.


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## Movingshrub

Week one update. This was bare dirt a week ago. I sprayed 1/10th of a pound of AMS, per 1k, and did Axilo mix 5 micros at a rate of .25lb/A. The digital gram scale is getting more use than I expected.


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## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> ...The digital gram scale is getting more use than I expected.


Which one do you have? I use mine all the time. :thumbsup:


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## Movingshrub

Ware said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...The digital gram scale is getting more use than I expected.
> 
> 
> 
> Which one do you have? I use mine all the time. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Same one. I bought that one per your recommendation and it's worked well.


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## Movingshrub

Area I stole the sprigs from vs the rest of the yard.


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## Colonel K0rn

Movingshrub said:


> Area I stole the sprigs from vs the rest of the yard.


LOL, domination line in your own yard. :lol:


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## Movingshrub

Colonel K0rn said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Area I stole the sprigs from vs the rest of the yard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL, domination line in your own yard. :lol:
Click to expand...

My wife claims the green part since that where the deck she wants me to build is going to go. Pretty sure she gets all the credit on the irrigation and sprigging projects; I wouldn't have been able to get them done without her help.


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## kur1j

Movingshrub said:


> Week one update. This was bare dirt a week ago. I sprayed 1/10th of a pound of AMS, per 1k, and did Axilo mix 5 micros at a rate of .25lb/A. The digital gram scale is getting more use than I expected.


I wish you luck with that mailbox! When you get your reel mower it's going to be a pain in the *** to mow around! I have an area that's basically the same. The mailbox is in the "beauty" strip. Have to use the landscape blade to basically mow around it.

Also when you do decide to get a reel, make sure you have the budget for a Landscape Blade.


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## Greendoc

Even with out a reel, Landscape Blade helps to maintain HOC. String trimming often causes either constant scalping or the other extreme of trim areas not being maintained low enough. The first time I mow a lawn, especially one that is reel cut, I am having to scalp off and rake up all kinds of overgrowth from the trim areas. This is even in lawns that are religiously mowed every 7 days.


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## jayhawk

I just use scissors... &#128512;


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## Movingshrub

jayhawk said:


> I just use scissors... 😀


Feel free to visit anytime. I'll even loan you my scissors or a straight razor if that's your thing.

I wanted to post to point out a mistake I made. I wasn't really paying attention anytime I was tank mixing, in terms of the order of mixture. I figured my goal was to kill everything, so who cares if the mixture hurt the grass, that's the goal after all. I don't know the impact of my haphazardly mixing order had an impact, but I'd prefer to do it correctly in the future.

I posted something similar to this on the cool season side but wanted to post here for anyone that opts to nerd out on this thread.
http://www.nufarm.com/Assets/17209/1/Brochure_Spraywise_HandbookExtract_FmlnMixOrder_Apr11.pdf

Here is what I should have done on the tank mixture, in terms of order.

Fill tank 70% full of water
Add soluble AMS 
Add Tenacity (Suspension concentrate) Not required for bermudagrass removal. I've got it to help go after zoysiagrass.
Add Fusilade II (Emulsifiable concentrate)
Add Triclopyr Ester, probably not going to use this but wanted to include in the list for anyone else renovating/killing off bermudagrass (I think this qualifies as either a soluble liquid or emulsifiable concentrate)
Fill tank to nearly full of water
Add glyphosate
Add adjuvants such as non-ionic surfactant and/or tracker dye


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## social port

Thank you. Very help thread! It is appreciated.

So, you've done three apps so far to that strip, and the grass is still growing?
Hope that AMS is the silver bullet-that, and the new mixing order. 
Do you happen to know if the AMS rate(quarter of a cup per gallon) refers to the powder or the mixed AMS solution?


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## social port

And I meant to add: The TLF baby blanket is first-rate :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub

social port said:


> Thank you. Very help thread! It is appreciated.
> 
> So, you've done three apps so far to that strip, and the grass is still growing?
> Hope that AMS is the silver bullet-that, and the new mixing order.
> Do you happen to know if the AMS rate(quarter of a cup per gallon) refers to the powder or the mixed AMS solution?


I did multiple apps to that strip and felt pretty confident on the kill. There was a small bit of grass at the very edge that survived, I assume due to bad application, so I dug up a section. At this point, I am at the reestablishment stage after planting sprigs almost two weeks ago.

I think the quarter of a cup per gallon was referring specifically to a commercial liquid AMS solution. I plan to apply v/v of AMS in the future. I'll follow up tomorrow with the rates.


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## Movingshrub

@social port I went through and looked at the rates listed in the smbsc.com document where it suggests 1-2% AMS w/w (lbs/gal) which didn't seem right to me (wouldn't that be mass/volume?). Anyways, I've opted to trust the math of 8.5lb of AMS per 100 gallons of water.

There is another article from Michigan State where the author says to mix 17lb of AMS into water but remark how much water, so I assume that's likely the 2% rate of 17lb of AMS/100 gallons. http://www.michiganfarmer.com/story-do-you-need-ammonium-sulfate-in-your-glyphosate-spray-mix-9-52362

Here is another http://weeds.nmsu.edu/pdfs/AMS_use.pdf article where they assert 17lb of AMS into 100gal of water. This article had a really neat calculation where, if you knew the amount of Ca, Mg, Na, or K in your water, you could calculate how much AMS you should include to offset those other ions.

Another from Iowa State http://extension.agron.iastate.edu/weeds/mgmt/2001/ams.htm
"The 17 lb rate of AMS is probably higher than needed for most water sources found in Iowa. NDSU states that 8.5 lbs of AMS is sufficient for most water sources."

I'll probably use the top rate of 17lb AMS per 100gal when spraying glyphosate. I got a bag of 51lb (yes, 51lb) sprayable AMS and it was $25. The stuff looks like sugar crystals. My sprayer holds 12gallons, so if I were to spray at the 17lb per 100gal, I'd need 1.7lb at 10gal, so $0.83 worth of product.

I know you didn't remark on this but I did want to comment on it. Using AMS doesn't eliminate the need for a surfactant, it help helps bind up the ions that would reduce glyphosate effectiveness, whether that's in the water being sprayed or the plant itself.



social port said:


> And I meant to add: The TLF baby blanket is first-rate :thumbup:


The embroidery job on that TLF logo is top notch. All the credit goes to the kind and generous individuals who made and sent that as a baby gift.


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## social port

Big thanks to you, @Movingshrub .

I will run the 17 lbs rate as well, with glyph and fluazifop (via Ornamec), and add a NIS. 
I ordered the AMS linked by Mighty Quinn in his liquid iron thread. I haven't used it before, but it seems straightforward enough.



Movingshrub said:


> The embroidery job on that TLF logo is top notch. All the credit goes to the kind and generous individuals who made and sent that as a baby gift.


Wow!


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## Movingshrub

social port said:


> Big thanks to you, @Movingshrub .
> I will run the 17 lbs rate as well, with glyph and fluazifop (via Ornamec), and add a NIS.
> I ordered the AMS linked by Mighty Quinn in his liquid iron thread. I haven't used it before, but it seems straightforward enough.


Happy to help!
I got my bags of AMS from Advanced Turf Solutions near BNA Airport, just as an FYI.


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## Movingshrub

Day 18


I applied granular AMS at a rate of 0.6lb per 1k, so in this case, 0.18lb of AMS for a 300sqft area.


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## Movingshrub

Now at the three week mark. Irrigation has changed from every other hour down to 0.22" each day at 9am. I am considering spraying micros. Also, if it my sand dries out, I'll top dress and likely apply more AMS tomorrow.


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## Movingshrub

I know I have touched on my timeline before. It has been refined after conversations with J_Nick, Iriasj2009, and GreenDoc. Like always, I have questions and I hope fellow TLF members can point me in the right direction.

This is for the renovation of my front yard, which is a little over 4500 sqft.

Considerations
1. Fluazifop has a 30 day hold on seeding and a 7 day hold on sprigging, per the label.

2. Tenacity has a recommended three week hold before sprigging, per Syngenta tech support.

3. My impression is that glyphosate has a seven day hold before sprigging, even though it isn't mentioned on the label.

4. Sencor - I was unable to locate an answer on whether this is going to have a negative impact on PRG seeding or bermuda sprigging.
Updated to remove Sencor from the Fall application. I'm concerned it will impact the seeding.

5. My daughter's first birthday will be late May 2019. I would prefer to avoid killing the rye grass until after her birthday party. If I wait until after her birthday, then May 26th would be the earliest I could spray. That mixture would likely be AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, and NIS. I am evaluating whether Sencor may be a better option in lieu of Tenacity for either the fall or spring application. I am inclined to stick with Tenacity in the fall since I will have to wait 30 days due to the fluazifop and removes it being an issue with the PGR. However, Sencor allegedly toasts zoysia which is appealing. In the spring, Sencor looks more appealing (assuming Sencor doesn't hurt sprigging) since it doesn't apparently have any waiting period before sprigging, which would help my timeline.

6. Will I need to use a harley rake again to clean-up the surface before sprigging? I will NOT be disking in the sprigs. In 2017, I spread them out by hand and tried to roll them into contact with the soil, which worked *okay*. I think I had a lot of sprigs die off due to lack of good contact, which led to them drying out. I don't know if that's due to the roller not being the right tool or due to the amount of rain I got that day, where roller + wet clay soil = clogged roller full of sprigs. For my sidewalk sprigging project, I topdressed with sand which seemed to be a significantly superior option. I would prefer to use thie dingo + harley rake machine in the fall, where it's cooler, to get rid of all the major bumps and such so that way the lawn at least looks smooth and flat now, and then only rent again in the spring if absolutely necessary. The rental is like $300 a pop, so it's not huge expense but I definitely wouldn't want $300 to fall out of my pocket. My real question is - Will broadcast stolonizing be successful in the spring, on scalped down dead PRG, without being crimped/disked into the soil, AND without top-dressing? I need to know if my only options are either basically between renting the machine to remove the dead rye grass or top-dressing with sand. I would like to top-dress no matter what but would prefer to know if that's a requirement. Another unlikely option would be to carefully burn the rye grass debris.

7. Can I push the PRG seeding, and by association, and the entire timeline back? I would prefer my lawn not to be brown for all of August and September, if I can avoid it.

Application Rates -
Ammonium Sulfate (AMS) 1.7lb of AMS per 10 gal of water
Glyphosate 41% 2.83 Gal/A (8.33oz/1k)
Fluazifop 24oz/A
Tenacity 8oz/A
Sencor 4oz/A
Triclopyr 1qt/A
NIS, per label

Granular Nitrogen - likely 1/2lb of fast release N per 1,000 sqft
PRG Seed - going to spread 50lb bag over 4500 sqft area

2018 Tentative plan
Remove stumps and debris - Expecting to accomplish this within the next 30 days, if not sooner
ASAP - Apply lime
7/27 - Apply 1/2lb of N
8/3 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, NIS, and maybe triclopyr and maybe Sencor 
8/10 - Apply 1/2lb of N
8/24 - If it has starting to green up again otherwise wait until 8/31 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, NIS, and maybe triclopyr. and maybe Sencor 
9/7 - Apply 1/2lb of N
Sometime 9/7 and 9/23 (closer to 9/23 if possible since this area is on a slope) - Rent a dingo and harley rake and correct the grading, blend in remaining required lime and all-purpose fertilizer, while also using a drag mat to level. My thought process is that I would be better off doing the grading in the fall, since I can put perennial ryegrass (PRG) seed to control the erosion until the spring. Furthermore, it is generally cooler weather in September than in June.
9/23 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, and NIS.
9/30 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, NIS, maybe Tenacity, and spread PRG seed; Do I hold off on spreading all 50lb worth incase I have germination problem in a certain spot?
10/31 - First frost 50% date - I worked backwards from this date, assuming I needed to plant PRG 30 days prior to expected frost.

2019 Options

Option 1 - Waiting until after birthday party, while using Tenacity 
5/26 - Scalp rye grass and spray a mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, and NIS - The tenacity is being sprayed to pick off any remaining zoysiagrass. I assume glyphosate will takeout the rye grass.
The challenge also is that any bermuda lurking may not really be in a position to absorb herbicides, depending on the weather and HOC of the rye. Do I spray JUST glyphosate for this application?
6/2 or 6/9 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, and NIS
6/16 - Earliest I can sprig due to Tenacity three week hold

Option 2 - Waiting until after birthday party, while using Sencor
5/19 - Apply 1/2lb of N
5/26 - Scalp rye grass and spray a mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Sencor, and NIS 
6/2, 6/9 or 6/16 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, and NIS.
6/9, 6/16, or 6/23? (Last apps plus one week) - Earliest I could sprig

Option 3 - Accepting the lawn being brown during the birthday party, using Tenacity and/or Sencor
4/20 - Apply 1/2lb of N
4/27 - Scalp rye grass and spray a mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, Tenacity, Sencor, and NIS .
5/25 - Spray mixture of AMS, glyphosate, fluazifop, and NIS
6/1 - Target earliest sprigging date depending on weather the preceding months (drives spraying timeline) and availability of sprigs/harvest date options.


----------



## Movingshrub

Five weeks since I sprigged. I'd count this as a win. No pre-em or post-ems used; Manual weeding for whatever popped up.


----------



## Greendoc

Bermuda can grow in pretty fast. 
Looks good.


----------



## Movingshrub

I ended up applying another 0.6lb of AMS to the sidewalk section on Sunday 7/29/2018 and irrigated it in the next day.

I did get the stumps ground and have been bagging the debris as time and schedule allows. I'm up to about 30 bags so so far. I'm not trying to get all of the debris, just the big chunks that might cause an issue during seeding or sprigging.

Later this week I intend to start spraying the front yard to kill everything as part of the renovation, so the lawn will be brown from mid-August until early October. It's going to look like junk. Anyone else excited or just me?!

I ordered a 50lb of Champion GQ PRG seed that will hopefully serve as my front yard from October until May.


----------



## dtillman5

Movingshrub said:


> I ended up applying another 0.6lb of AMS to the sidewalk section on Sunday 7/29/2018 and irrigated it in the next day.
> 
> I did get the stumps ground and have been bagging the debris as time and schedule allows. I'm up to about 30 bags so so far. I'm not trying to get all of the debris, just the big chunks that might cause an issue during seeding or sprigging.
> 
> Later this week I intend to start spraying the front yard to kill everything as part of the renovation, so the lawn will be brown from mid-August until early October. It's going to look like junk. Anyone else excited or just me?!
> 
> I ordered a 50lb of Champion GQ PRG seed that will hopefully serve as my front yard from October until May.


I'm excited to see the PRG!


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## JRS 9572

Wow. That's looking awesome and coming together well. My condolences for having to deal with red clay. We all need a medal for dealing with it down south.


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## Movingshrub

Clearly the claw truck operator is a cool season fan. I put the bags in the street to avoid this and yet here we are.


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## Movingshrub

Does this count as my flamingo photo?


----------



## raldridge2315

Movingshrub said:


> Does this count as my flamingo photo?


 :thumbup:


----------



## Bermuda_Newbie

Movingshrub said:


> Does this count as my flamingo photo?


Cute baby!


----------



## Movingshrub

Easy example of how to identify Bermuda in zoysia. Bermuda holds the morning dew differently. Anyways, this is all getting killed today.


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## raldridge2315

You are about to provide your neighbors with confirmation of you mental condition! All of Huntspatch will be talking about the guy who killed his lawn. Proud of ya!! :lol: :lol: :thumbup:


----------



## Movingshrub

Chemicals and rates




I passed on the tricylopr today due to the temps but will spray it once weather allows.


----------



## social port

Movingshrub said:


> Chemicals and rates
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I passed on the tricylopr today due to the temps but will spray it once weather allows.


No AS?


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> No AS?


Yes to Ammonium sulfate. I had accidentally cropped it off the photo for the chemical measurements. I did 1.8lb of AMS per 10 gallons of water.

That was the first tank mix where I was really concerned about getting the order right, so I have them listed in the order I added them. AMS went in first. I knew fusilade was an emulsion but was unsure on tenacity and triclopyr so took my best guess on the sequence. Glyphosate went last, followed by NIS.

Edit: I think this should be the order. The triclopyr is the item where I can't figure out exactly which category it falls into.

Fill tank 70% full of water
Add soluble AMS 
Add Tenacity (Suspension concentrate) Not required for bermudagrass removal. I've got it to help go after zoysiagrass.
Add Fusilade II (Emulsifiable concentrate)
Add Triclopyr Ester (I think this qualifies as either a soluble liquid or emulsifiable concentrate)
Fill tank to nearly full of water
Add glyphosate
Add adjuvants such as non-ionic surfactant and/or tracker dye


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Man that is a nuclear bomb going off on your grass. I felt this sick kind of guilt the next day after I did mine. The lawn is still green but you can tell something is not right like it's terminal. Are you doing the front this year or next?


----------



## social port

Movingshrub said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> No AS?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes to Ammonium sulfate. I had accidentally cropped it off the photo for the chemical measurements. I did 1.8lb of AMS per 10 gallons of water.
> 
> That was the first tank mix where I was really concerned about getting the order right, so I have them listed in the order I added them. AMS went in first. I knew fusilade was an emulsion but was unsure on tenacity and triclopyr so took my best guess on the sequence. Glyphosate went last, followed by NIS.
Click to expand...

My mix is putting in serious work for me thus far. As far as order, I've been following your list on p. 12. All of those herbicides are listed there.


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> Man that is a nuclear bomb going off on your grass. I felt this sick kind of guilt the next day after I did mine. The lawn is still green but you can tell something is not right like it's terminal. Are you doing the front this year or next?


The front has common Bermuda so I want to make sure I get a really solid kill.

Spray the front with the aforementioned mixture. Plant p. rye for the winter. Spray again in the spring to pickoff and remaining Bermuda stragglers then sprig Tiftuf Bermuda.


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> My mix is putting in serious work for me thus far. As far as order, I've been following your list on p. 12. All of those herbicides are listed there.


I totally forgot I had listed it all out previously. I am going to update my more recent post to reflect that order.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Movingshrub said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man that is a nuclear bomb going off on your grass. I felt this sick kind of guilt the next day after I did mine. The lawn is still green but you can tell something is not right like it's terminal. Are you doing the front this year or next?
> 
> 
> 
> The front has common Bermuda so I want to make sure I get a really solid kill.
> 
> Spray the front with the aforementioned mixture. Plant p. rye for the winter. Spray again in the spring to pickoff and remaining Bermuda stragglers then sprig Tiftuf Bermuda.
Click to expand...

Following and good luck!


----------



## Gibby

Subscribing!


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## Movingshrub

This was green yesterday morning when I sprayed it. This is quicker than I expected.


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## social port

Movingshrub said:


> This is quicker than I expected.


 :lol: 
Man, I feel like that mix is the jackpot. I'm so curious to see if and when it recovers.


----------



## Movingshrub

One week since I sprayed. Hurry up and die already!


----------



## social port

How's it looking now? Any rain?


----------



## Movingshrub

This photo was taken today. The yard is definitely looking more brown than the previous few days. Also, no rain in the last few days. I am going to irrigate to make sure there is enough water for the plant to continue to process and uptake the chemicals when I spray again.


----------



## sanders4617

Are you doing a rye grass through the winter?


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> Are you doing a rye grass through the winter?


Yes.

I ordered Champion GQ seed. The goal is to plant at the end of September/early October, depending on weather, success of kill, and sufficient time in schedule to do the ground prep-work.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I'd love to see you take LOTM with a PRG yard


----------



## Movingshrub

Colonel K0rn said:


> I'd love to see you take LOTM with a PRG yard


Ha!
Only chance of that is if no one else gets nominated or I teach my toddler to cut PRG at 0.5" with a pair of scissors.


----------



## Movingshrub

Anyone know how this machine works, compared to a wood chipper?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qukoi-HasOs

I keep seeing remarks about how sprigs can be made by shredding sod but yet to see any explanation on how to do that, other than by hand.


----------



## Movingshrub

This was the yard this morning.

I did my second broadcast application today.

This time I did AMS, fluazifop, triclopyr, glyphosate, and then used Hot-Mes, which is a high surfactant oil concentrate, instead of NIS. It allegedly increases the uptake of herbicides like a MSO, without antagonizing the glyphosate.

Also, Tenacity was excluded this time. Triclopyr was excluded the first time due to temperature. The high today was 88F. The wind was about 7-8mph most of the day so I felt comfortable taking the risk of volitization.


----------



## Movingshrub

My bag of champion GQ arrived on Friday. I did notice a difference in the seed label on my bag vs ware's bag last year. The mixture is different in seed cultivar, ratio, and other and inert seed percentages.

My bag 

Ware's bag


----------



## Movingshrub

Photo from this evening. The greenish spots are some zoysia spots that seem to be holding on.


----------



## sanders4617

You're ready to go! I've gotta order some ryegrass seed myself - will be Harley raking the yard next week. But I think it's still too warm to seed


----------



## Movingshrub

I just need some army worms and a Cane Corso dog to come finish it off.


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> You're ready to go! I've gotta order some ryegrass seed myself - will be Harley raking the yard next week. But I think it's still too warm to seed


 I thought about Harley raking and putting down seed mid-September but I just think it's too warm as well.

I am aiming for late September early October,


----------



## social port

I've been watching for this update.

So, the Bermuda is dying, but the zoysia is putting up a fight? Is that right?
I wasn't expecting that.


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> I've been watching for this update.
> 
> So, the Bermuda is dying, but the zoysia is putting up a fight? Is that right?
> I wasn't expecting that.


The zoysia was much more well established.

I do wonder how it would have faired had I used sencor, which is very tough on zoysia.

On the other side, glyphosate, triclopyr, fusilade, all go after the Bermuda. Granted, they ding zoysia too. My application this weekend will include tenacity again, which is allegedly tough on zoysia. I would have used sencor but couldn't find an answer on the re-seed interval even from the manufacturer.


----------



## Movingshrub

Also, included a HSOC instead of NIS, whether that makes a difference.

My app for this weekend will likely be AMS, tenacity, fusilade, glyphosate, and Hot-MES HSOC.


----------



## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> ...putting down seed mid-September but I just think it's too warm as well.
> 
> I am aiming for late September early October,


I remember being very nervous about the timing, but looking back after the fact I think there was probably a decently wide window that I could have dropped seed and still had a successful project. :thumbsup:


----------



## sanders4617

I've got such large areas to establish for the fall, I may do mine in stages. I'm seeding TTTF in the front shady-ish yard. So I may plant it first and get it going, and then because of the speed that Ryegrass establishes, do that part afterwards.

So maybe TTTF in mid late Sept, and then the Rye in mid October. Figure it would be easier to water as well - possibly.

Good luck @Movingshrub ! I'm sure yours will look incredible, and I can't imagine how it will look next year at this time.


----------



## raldridge2315

Movingshrub said:


> I just need some army worms and a Cane Corso dog to come finish it off.


 :lol: :lol: :lol:

Be nice!!


----------



## Movingshrub

I opted to cut my dead grass, to help promote good spray penetration into the stuff that was still alive.

I am surprised by how much has hung on. I believe this is due to a few reasons. I think I should have cut the dead grass off before the last application. Also, I should have irrigated to offset the lack of rain. I believe the lack of rain impaired the herbicide effectiveness.

It rained like crazy a week ago. I made sure to irrigate this week to ensure whatever was still around was well hydrated.

Also, I got some really funny looks from neighbors while cutting my dead grass.

I have maxed out on tenacity. It's too hot for triclopyr. I am too close to my seeding date for fluaizfop. As a result, the spray today included AMS, glyphosate, and NIS. This is going to be the last application for the year.

I plan to get the dingo and Harley rake in 2-3 weeks, then grade/surface prep, and plant PRG. In hindsight, I wish I had used sencor in the first application to go after the zoysia, but I never could find information on its soil residual. I didn't want it to mess up seeding PRG, even if the sencor application was 45-60 days before seeding.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> I opted to cut my dead grass, to help promote good spray penetration into the stuff that was still alive.
> 
> I am surprised by how much has hung on. I believe this is due to a few reasons. I think I should have cut the dead grass off before the last application. Also, I should have irrigated to offset the lack of rain. I believe the lack of rain impaired the herbicide effectiveness.
> 
> It rained like crazy a week ago. I made sure to irrigate this week to ensure whatever was still around was well hydrated.
> 
> Also, I got some really funny looks from neighbors while cutting my dead grass.
> 
> I have maxed out on tenacity. It's too hot for triclopyr. I am too close to my seeding date for fluaizfop. As a result, the spray today included AMS, glyphosate, and NIS. This is going to be the last application for the year.
> 
> I plan to get the dingo and Harley rake in 2-3 weeks, then grade/surface prep, and plant PRG. In hindsight, I wish I had used sencor in the first application to go after the zoysia, but I never could find information on its soil residual. I didn't want it to mess up seeding PRG, even if the sencor application was 45-60 days before seeding.


It's amazing how our eyes can trick us. Looking at that first picture with the brown grass and long shadows it looks like a crisp late fall afternoon. A slight chill in the air and about 6 in the afternoon. But in reality it was probably hot as balls and about 8 at night.


----------



## Movingshrub

@TN Hawkeye 
You nailed it.
My neighbors house and trees are providing the shadow. Photo was taken at 530pm. It was 97F.


----------



## social port

College football is on today, and @Movingshrub updated his thread. It's a good day.

There are some parallels in our experiences. I also wish that I had cut back the dead grass more intensely. It was cut regularly this summer, but the kill areas needed something closer to a scalp, with bare dirt exposed. To me, that makes for a sitting duck all summer, especially for other weeds, but I now know that bare is best. I was more aggressive on my final apps, spraying on areas mostly uncluttered with dead grass.

My last app was AS, gly, and NIS as well.

I would say that the majority of the bermuda completely died with one app of the full cocktail. I can't say for sure, as everything got at least two applications, whether it was green or not. I did have a few surprises this month--a few bermuda ghosts (3 or 4) trying to emerge in areas that have been hit heavily.


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> College football is on today, and @Movingshrub updated his thread. It's a good day.
> 
> There are some parallels in our experiences. I also wish that I had cut back the dead grass more intensely. It was cut regularly this summer, but the kill areas needed something closer to a scalp, with bare dirt exposed. To me, that makes for a sitting duck all summer, especially for other weeds, but I now know that bare is best. I was more aggressive on my final apps, spraying on areas mostly uncluttered with dead grass.
> 
> My last app was AS, gly, and NIS as well.
> 
> I would say that the majority of the bermuda completely died with one app of the full cocktail. I can't say for sure, as everything got at least two applications, whether it was green or not. I did have a few surprises this month--a few bermuda ghosts (3 or 4) trying to emerge in areas that have been hit heavily.


I don't know if I would have gone to dirt/scalp, but I would have definitely cut it down. At least in my case, the zoysia is holding on more than the Bermuda. Granted, the zoysia has been in this lawn for years while the bermuda has been here for a year.

Either way, the whole reason for spraying this season was to maximize chance of kill, and on the assumption I would spray again in the spring to pick off whatever was left.

Now I am torn with whether to have the PRG last until June 2019, or kill it early and start spraying any remaining Bermuda and zoysia our earlier so I can get to sprigging as early as possible.


----------



## Movingshrub

Nothing sexy on this update. Mainly for record keeping.

Applied 1.0lb/A rate of prodiamine to backyard, sideyard, and sidewalk strip.

Also applied imidacloprid at 0.6 fl oz /1k rate.

My plan is to follow up another app of simazine and monument in a few weeks.

No pre-em on the front yard. The goal is the seed with PRG in the next week.


----------



## sanders4617

@Movingshrub Did you ever seed? I was gonna seed my PRG last week, but weather wasn't cooperating. So I've pushed mine to this week with the rain and cooler weather coming in.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

He's been busy with the harley rake. I'm sure he'll update the thread shortly.


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> @Movingshrub Did you ever seed? I was gonna seed my PRG last week, but weather wasn't cooperating. So I've pushed mine to this week with the rain and cooler weather coming in.


Yes. Seed went down on Sunday. Like Colonel K0rn noted, I'd been busy with the Harley rake.


----------



## Movingshrub

This was my yard Friday afternoon before I started working. 


Harley rake, for those who haven't seen one before.


This was the pile of debris I had on one side of my yard, just on Friday. 


Lesson learned, scalp down the area in advance. Even if it takes the same amount of time, it allows you to break the task up into smaller, more manageable bites.

Also, Mike Rowe would be proud; this was a dirty job.



Here is where I was as of mid-day Saturday.



I filled approximately 100 yard trash bags worth of debris, which was exhausting.

Seed went down on Sunday around noon. I spread about 35lb for 4.5k sqft. I wanted to have enough left Incase I get wash out.

I did not top dress. I used my drag mat several times across the yard to encourage good soil and seed contact. Also, I was surprised how many stolons I had that were still green. I did an additional application of glyphosate once I was done with the Harley rake. I took a break for lunch and let it all dry before I continued.

Lessons learned - this took way longer than I expected. I had someone helping me for two hours on Saturday which helped speed up the bagging. I should have scalped it down in advance.

I planned to top dress but significantly under-purchased peat moss, due to overlooking the unit of measurement; cubic feet vs cubic yards. If I had done the math correctly, I don't know if I would have spent the money on the peat moss. Seed was $100/50lb bag. Peat moss would have been. $200. I am willing to overseed twice if necessary.

I did not apply starter fert. My plan is to apply some fert this weekend, depending on how the weather plays out this week.

It was in the low 90s on Friday and upper 80s on Saturday and Sunday. Today it's forecasted to be in the mid 80s, with temps dropping to seasonally normal temps in the 70s starting Thursday. So, it may have been a bit warm at time of planting, which I hope doesn't lead to any fungal issues.

I have my irrigation running every few hours to keep the soil moist.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Yikes. Bagging lots of grass is the worst part about being a lawn care enthusiast. It takes forever, it's dirty, and it's heavy. Excited to see how it turns out!


----------



## sanders4617

Looks great @Movingshrub. Excited to see how it progresses this fall/winter.

How's the Tiftuf in back doing? Do you have any shadier areas that make it hard on it?


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> Looks great Movingshrub. Excited to see how it progresses this fall/winter.
> 
> How's the Tiftuf in back doing? Do you have any shadier areas that make it hard on it?


I have one spot where nothing grows, including weeds. I think it's actually a lack of water but there isn't much light either. The soil is dry enough to be dust. There is an oak tree and my neighbor has a jungle of unmaintained foliage that I think draws all the water in the area. I'd have to irrigate daily to get enough water for this area, or break it into another zone, and it just isn't worth it for me.

This picture is from the end of September. The brown grass at the bottom is from muddy foot prints, due to my deck construction project.


----------



## Movingshrub

I took these photos on Sunday. I had been out of town for a week, so just had to guess on the water output while gone, based on the temps. I learned I have some lacking irrigation coverage in some areas and excess in others. 




I had applied about 35lb last week, and ended up applying the rest once I got back in town. I made adjustments to some of the sprinklers to resolve the aforementioned problems.

Not enough water.




Too much water


I applied 1/2lb of N per k sqft using some leach starter fert I had on hand.

I plan to get another 50lb bag, or two, to address the thin areas, once I know the water issues are correct.


----------



## Movingshrub

This is where I was as of Wednesday.


It looks thin in some areas. I picked up two more 50lb bags, after finding a local-ish supplier about an hour drive way. I also raised the sprinkler in the bottom of the photo so it would quit spraying away seeds.

Seed bag label below. The cultivar mixture was different from my other bag so I called and talked to someone at SRO about that. They told me as cultivars sell out throughout the year, the mixture and ratios will change. However, this bag has zero weed seeds and zero crop seeds which was an improvement over the first bag. The rep also told me that often there is an amount of weed or crop seed listed as a CYA approach from some of their manufacturers around the country. Also, the bag was blue tagged and POA free.



I put down the full 50lb and also repurposed my sidewalk sprinklers to spray onto the lawn. I switched out some nozzles with R-Van nozzles, as they had the slowest application rate, which I figured would reduce the chance of seed wash out.


----------



## Movingshrub

This morning. Still working on a few problem areas.


----------



## Movingshrub




----------



## Movingshrub

I haven't had this much fun cutting grass in an as long as I can remember.


----------



## social port

A month or two ago, I thought seriously about making the case for why you should plant TTTF instead of PRG. I'm glad I didn't. That looks great!

Is the bermuda in your area dormant yet? Any lingering breakthrough in your yard?


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> A month or two ago, I thought seriously about making the case for why you should plant TTTF instead of PRG. I'm glad I didn't. That looks great!
> 
> Is the bermuda in your area dormant yet? Any lingering breakthrough in your yard?


I only did PRG in one section of my yard. 
You can see the bermuda on the other side of the driveway, which hasn't gone dormant yet, although the color is starting to lighten for all of the bermudagrass yards in the area.

No breakthrough since it wasn't an overseed, in my eyes, since I was trying to kill the existing turf off. However, if you're asking if any Bermuda or zoysia is obviously in the turf, there are sections of dead stolons that I didn't get completely removed when I used the Harley rake. I am hoping those decompose and go away, sooner rather than later.

In terms of my whole lawn, my Bermuda has sections where it struggles with the abuse from traffic. If PRG could handle this type of abuse and the heat, it would be a contender to replace the Bermuda. With that said, I don't know what would handle traffic better than Bermuda grass.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> I haven't had this much fun cutting grass in an as long as I can remember.


Man that looks awesome. I bet it's fun trying out different stripes.


----------



## friscolawner

Long and nice story


----------



## Movingshrub




----------



## Movingshrub

Cut the grass again today and worked to pull up dead/dying Bermuda and zoysia stolons that were impacting the color of the lawn.


----------



## Redtenchu

Looks good!


----------



## Movingshrub

Redtenchu said:


> Looks good!


Thanks!

Today I ended up spraying the rest of my pre-em. I did prodiamine about a month ago. Today I sprayed simazine and monument.

Just to be clear, none of that was on the PRG.


----------



## tcorbitt20

I never thought I'd want to overseed, but man that looks great! 


Movingshrub said:


> Cut the grass again today and worked to pull up dead/dying Bermuda and zoysia stolons that were impacting the color of the lawn.


----------



## Movingshrub

It should be against the law to have this much fun cutting grass.


----------



## Brodgers88

Movingshrub said:


> It should be against the law to have this much fun cutting grass.


 :lol: :lol:

Looks great!


----------



## Movingshrub

Brodgers88 said:


> lol: :lol:
> 
> Looks great!


Thanks!

I know I would be in for a challenge in the summer but with how this stuff looks it sure is tempting to try PRG year round.


----------



## datcope

Looks awesome!


----------



## Movingshrub

datcope said:


> Looks awesome!


Thanks! I appreciate it.


----------



## jimbeckel

Looks awesome, nice to still see a green lawn while our bermuda has finally gone dormant.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

@Movingshrub you ever been to Phoenix in the winter? I just went for the first time in the winter and it seemed like overseeding with PRG is standard practice there. The Bermuda wasn't fully dormant, I doubt it goes fully dormant, but the grass looked good everywhere nonetheless. I assume it gets hot in spring and fries the PRG right away, no lingering or chemicals needed because it was a ubiquitous practice it seemed. Anyways, looking good man. Keep an eye out for that reel! It will show up when you least expect it.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> It should be against the law to have this much fun cutting grass.


Have you laid down in the grass? Is it as soft as it looks?


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> @Movingshrub you ever been to Phoenix in the winter? I just went for the first time in the winter and it seemed like overseeding with PRG is standard practice there. The Bermuda wasn't fully dormant, I doubt it goes fully dormant, but the grass looked good everywhere nonetheless. I assume it gets hot in spring and fries the PRG right away, no lingering or chemicals needed because it was a ubiquitous practice it seemed. Anyways, looking good man. Keep an eye out for that reel! It will show up when you least expect it.


I haven't. I'll potentially be in Mesa, AZ for a few weeks in January. If there is any grass, it will be a big change from the trip a few months ago; It was sparse then.

Thanks for the compliment! I have slowly been chipping away at building a deck for my wife, and a reel will not be in the cards until that project is finished. I've been trying to do my homework on the options though.


----------



## Movingshrub

TN Hawkeye said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should be against the law to have this much fun cutting grass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you laid down in the grass? Is it as soft as it looks?
Click to expand...

And mess up the stripes?!?

Absolutely have laid down in it. It's been hard to find a time when it's dry but today was nice to lounge in the grass for a few minutes and watch the clouds roll by.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should be against the law to have this much fun cutting grass.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Have you laid down in the grass? Is it as soft as it looks?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> And mess up the stripes?!?
> 
> Absolutely have laid down in it. It's been hard to find a time when it's dry but today was nice to lounge in the grass for a few minutes and watch the clouds roll by.
Click to expand...

Anybody that doesn't take the time to lay in their grass is missing the big picture. I imagine some of the really short Bermudas may not be as soft but when you have a green pillow like that you have to test it. Im looking forward to seeing what you do next spring.


----------



## Movingshrub

I'm pondering keeping the PRG for another year, depending on how schedule with kids and work plays out in the spring. Nonetheless, 
I am very pleased that I went from this to this in six weeks. 




While this is what it looked like when I started


----------



## JohnP

Movingshrub said:


> I'm pondering keeping the PRG for another year, depending on how schedule with kids and work plays out in the spring. Nonetheless,
> I am very pleased that I went from this to this in six weeks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While this is what it looked like when I started


"That looks amazing! But...he should take it from the same angle and then I can say it's amazing." -My wife

You still got my December LOTM vote!


----------



## Green

I don't know how you do it...you make that stuff look like cool-season grass! Fooled me!

Oh, wait...no you didn't!

Wait...now I'm really mixed up. Which grass is that?


----------



## Movingshrub

Green said:


> I don't know how you do it...you make that stuff look like cool-season grass! Fooled me!
> 
> Oh, wait...no you didn't!
> 
> Wait...now I'm really mixed up. Which grass is that?


I had bermuda and zoysia mix. I started spraying in August to kill it, planning to plant Bermuda in the spring. Bermuda is tough to kill so it's split over two seasons. In the mean time, I planted PRG in October so my yard wasn't brown from August 2018 through summer of 2019. Plus, I cut down trees and did grading so I wanted grass now to prevent erosion.


----------



## Ware

December 2018 LOTM


----------



## Movingshrub

Time to dust off this thread.

I am currently living the dream with my perennial rye grass front yard. I didn't apply any type of pre-em to it going into the fall.

I have had a variety of weeds pop-up and applied a mixture of 2,4-D ester and triclopyr about 30 days ago, with little result.

My goal is to sustain the PRG front yard through late May to get through my daughter's 1st birthday. After that, it's getting smoked to prepare for sprigging with Tiftuf bermuda, like the rest of the yard.

Immediate plan - kill broadleaf and keep the yard looking on point through June 1st.
I'm planning to spray Crossbow at 1.5% rate (4qt/A), along with Tenacity. I am debating on whether to do 2oz/A every two weeks, versus 4oz every four weeks. I'm unsure whether it makes a bit of difference. I'm hoping as an added benefit, tenacity suppress any zoysia or bermuda that's managed to hold on from last year. I've toyed with the idea of a very low rate of prodiamine, 0.25lb/A-0.375lb/A, to provide coverage through the end of May. The upside is I think it will cover more stuff than tenactiy. The downside is that I've got some PRG seed that might still germinate to kill in bare spots, and I don't know if such a low rate will have any kind of negative impact on sprigging in June/July.

Late May
May 26th - Apply triclopyr ester at rate of 1qt/A, fluazifop at 24oz/A, and glyphosate at 2-3lb AI/A.
June 9th - Apply triclopyr ester at rate of 1qt/A, fluazifop at 24oz/A, and glyphosate at 2-3lb AI/A.
June 23rd - Apply triclopyr ester at rate of 1qt/A?, fluazifop at 24oz/A, and glyphosate at 2-3lb AI/A.
June 30th - Sprig.

Glyphosate doesn't have a soil residual that impacts sprigging.
Fluazifop has a 7 day hold before sprigging.
I don't think triclopyr ester has a soil residual, based off what I could find on Garlon 4. If anyone has information otherwise, please chime in with the information.

Anyone in the North Alabama area planning to sprig this year?

Anyone put a piece of sod into a wood chipper yet to test it out it's effectiveness at making sprigs?


----------



## jakemauldin

You and I basically have the same idea/plan for going from PRG to Bermuda, I came and did some research of the users posting on my topic of shade and I read this entire thread, it definitely caught my attention and kept it. You have a much prettier PRG established than I, I just had to get something popping out of the ground to keep the 120 loads of fresh dirt underneath our newly built house rather than down the street to my neighbors. I plan to put in much more time and effort into the Bermuda transition. This thread has given me some things to think about for sure. 
I read for the Roundup pro concentrate via the manufacturers page it stated you should take two weeks before seeding/sprigging. I read through 3rd party sites that say they only wait 7 days but there were plenty of folks disagreeing in those same posts.


----------



## Movingshrub

@jakemauldin I'm going to respond back on your shade thread.


----------



## Movingshrub

It's been fun PRG, but it's time to say goodbye.

The Alabama heat is starting to take its toll.


----------



## Movingshrub

The heat is definitely impacting the PRG. I don't think it's rained in almost three weeks and the temps have been 90F. I needed the lawn to make it through Saturday, which it did with plenty of irrigation and some anti-fungals. I quit irrigating after Friday morning; there is no point fighting the inevitable. 


I intended to spray on Sunday, for timeline management, but didn't and got around to spraying tonight. Mixture included AMS, fluazifop, glyphosate, and NIS; same rates as before.

I found some rogue Bermuda in the middle of the lawn. Keep in mind, I sprayed this multiple times last year. With that said, due to the color I think this is likely tiftuf which is my intended end result anyways.


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> The heat is definitely impacting the PRG. I don't think it's rained in almost three weeks and the temps have been 90F. I needed the lawn to make it through Saturday, which it did with plenty of irrigation and some anti-fungals. I quit irrigating after Friday morning; there is no point fighting the inevitable.
> 
> I found some rogue Bermuda in the middle of the lawn. Keep in mind, I sprayed this multiple times last year. With that said, due to the color I think this is likely tiftuf which is my intended end result anyways.


Rogue tiftuff in your lawn? You're the person that leaves his wallet at a restaurant and goes back to find it with an extra $100 in it aren't you?


----------



## Sandmountain Reel

@Movingshrub where did you get your spriggs?


----------



## Movingshrub

@TN Hawkeye Only if I forgot I put the $100 there in the first place.

I had a section of the front lawn that was patched with Tiftuf prior to the renovation. Based on the color and location, that's my guess, versus some unknown zoysiagrass cultivar.


----------



## Movingshrub

Sandmountain Reel said:


> @Movingshrub where did you get your spriggs?


I haven't sprigged this year, yet Initial sprigging was June of 2017. For this year
I am debating on using my existing stand as the source material via dethatcher, whether I want to buy a pallet of sod and turn it into sprigs with a wood chipper, or source sprigs directly.

If you are asking about my source in 2017, PM me.


----------



## social port

Movingshrub said:


> I found some rogue Bermuda in the middle of the lawn. Keep in mind, I sprayed this multiple times last year. With that said, due to the color I think this is likely tiftuf which is my intended end result anyways.


So, you hit this area multiple times with your mix last year, and this plant returned, i.e., recovered after the nuclear assault?

Also, I have been secretly hoping that you would try your hand at making that PRG survive the summer. I know that is an improbable proposition, but hey, it's TLF, and anything is possible.


----------



## Movingshrub

social port said:


> So, you hit this area multiple times with your mix last year, and this plant returned, i.e., recovered after the nuclear assault?


Yes. That's the only spot I've seen in the entire yard but it doesn't mean there aren't more.



social port said:


> Also, I have been secretly hoping that you would try your hand at making that PRG survive the summer. I know that is an improbable proposition, but hey, it's TLF, and anything is possible.


It had absolutely crossed my mind. With that being said, I have pondered whether I could get away with KBG year round. My neighbors all have bermuda so I'd be fighting that back constantly. I know TTTF is a viable option, but who wants that? It just looks like mini Dallisgrass plants to me, or at least the kentucky 31 cultivar does to me.

I wonder just how much water and fungicide it would take to keep KBG alive in Alabama in the summer.


----------



## social port

Go KBG while you have the chance!
I'm about 1.5 hours North of you in Tennessee, and I'm growing a little over 1k of bluegrass to see how it goes. There is another member way, way down in Georgia who grows bluegrass.
It might work for you -- and it might not. But it would be a cool experiment, and there is reason to think that you might have a good outcome.

Others who grow bluegrass in the transition zone comment that the water requirements of KBG aren't that much different than TTTF. That is certainly true to my own experience, but I'm still very early in the summer, so I don't know what things will look like mid August.

Also, I wouldn't rule out TTTF so quickly. On most days, my TTTF looks better than my bluegrass. Of course, that may change as my bluegrass continues to develop its color (it takes something like 1-2 years, I believe).

Anyway, there is something for you to think about this morning. And no more re-emerging, back-from-the-dead bermuda, please.


----------



## Movingshrub

The rye grass is getting nice and crispy.


----------



## sanders4617

@Movingshrub I used my pull behind dethatcher today to harvest sprigs. It was incredibly easy and took little time at all. Worst part was just hopping off mower to remove the sprigs. I piled them up and then after about 5-6 harvests, I'd spread them out. Then I'd do it again.

I've got video, hopefully. I had my GoPro set up but it's giving me major fits. Was cutting off randomly, won't cut on, etc. So once I get a chance, I'll go through the SD card to see what I have.


----------



## Movingshrub

This first picture was taken on Monday June 10th. I learned my lesson last year after spending so much time bagging up debris. I'm trying to reduce the amount to clean this year, so I ended up cutting the grass, enabling me to use the bagging feature of the mower. I end up bagging 10 or so bags and had my Honda mower set to its lowest setting.



This is the after result on Friday June 14th. I'm just impressed I still have lawn stripes.


----------



## Movingshrub

Oh then I thought of another way to reduce the amount of debris to clean up.


----------



## jstephens

That'll do it. I would have had every fire truck in the city at my house in 1 minute flat haha


----------



## Movingshrub

A week later, I hit all again with a propane torch. I used 2.5 full propane tanks (not the partially filled exchange tanks) to burn everything off. To anyone who does this, I would suggest wearing pants and spraying them with water to stay cool. Good gloves and eye pro or also are also a must. Lastly, it's surprisingly loud for what it is.


----------



## Movingshrub

I started working on Friday for leveling before the sprigs went down.

I had an area that was almost trampoline spongy from a tree stump. I mixed an absurd amount of sand, tilled it, and leveled it out. I'm generally adverse to tilling but felt like it was the right call for this particular area.


----------



## Movingshrub

Just to add some information, 
I found a table on bushel measurements. The table did not provide grow-in time frame for the bushels per 1,000 sqft detailed below.

Bermuda grass is around 2000 sprigs per bushel.

1 square yard of sod = 2000-4000 sprigs

Bermuda grass stolons broadcast when top dressed
10 bushels per 1,000 sqft for golf greens
5 bushels per 1,000 sqft for golf tees
3 bushels per 1,000 sqft for sports field


----------



## adgattoni

Neat - so assuming you get an average of 3000 sprigs per square yard, a full pallet of sod (approx. 500 square feet / 55.56 square yards) would net you 166,666.7 sprigs or 83.33 bushels.

At the sports field rate you would get 27ksqft of coverage from one pallet of sod. 16ksqft at the tees rate. 
8ksqft at the greens rate.


----------



## Movingshrub

adgattoni said:


> Neat - so assuming you get an average of 3000 sprigs per square yard, a full pallet of sod (approx. 500 square feet / 55.56 square yards) would net you 166,666.7 sprigs or 83.33 bushels.
> 
> At the sports field rate you would get 27ksqft of coverage from one pallet of sod. 16ksqft at the tees rate.
> 8ksqft at the greens rate.


I will say, I was very skeptical to post considering there are no other details, such as method of planting (sprigging vs broadcast stolonizing), whether it was top dressed, and the time to fill in at each of those planting rates. I've seen general advice of 10/bu per 1,000 sqft.

A document from UT asserts one square yard of sod makes one bushel, so 55.56 bushels per pallet.


----------



## adgattoni

Movingshrub said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> Neat - so assuming you get an average of 3000 sprigs per square yard, a full pallet of sod (approx. 500 square feet / 55.56 square yards) would net you 166,666.7 sprigs or 83.33 bushels.
> 
> At the sports field rate you would get 27ksqft of coverage from one pallet of sod. 16ksqft at the tees rate.
> 8ksqft at the greens rate.
> 
> 
> 
> I will say, I was very skeptical to post considering there are no other details, such as method of planting (sprigging vs broadcast stolonizing), whether it was top dressed, and the time to fill in at each of those planting rates. I've seen general advice of 10/bu per 1,000 sqft.
> 
> A document from UT asserts one square yard of sod makes one bushel, so 55.56 bushels per pallet.
Click to expand...

I did a mini sprig project (haphazardly dumped a bunch of sprigs from a dethatching session and watered them aggressively, probably a dozen or less bushels), but it was approximately an 85-90% fail. I only had hose-end timers that allow for 4 settings a day, so I didn't have a way to get enough water on them. About a week into it I bought a couple timers that will let me do "x minutes every x hours" so I'm better equipped now, but I bet I lost a lot of sprigs during that first week.

Have you identified a better method of getting sprig-to-soil contact this time? I'm happy I got 10-15% out of what would have been thrown out with the trash, but I'm looking to make my next session (this weekend or next potentially) a bit more effective. I own a lawn roller so I suppose I'll try that this time. Maybe I'll go out there and rake the area aggressively, then spread the sprigs, then pack it back down with the roller. There's a lot of projects going on right now so I don't really want to get topdressing sand for this one (hard to stomach bagged sand prices when you have plans for getting 10 yards of sand at bulk prices).


----------



## Movingshrub

I think the ideal method is top dress with 1/4" or so of sand, roll with a cultipacker, and then roll with a smooth style roller.

I didn't feel like the lawn sod roller did much for me the first time around. I didn't need it the second time around when I did just top dressing, and the grass seemed seemed to spread a lot faster. This time, I didn't even consider using a sod roller. I did top dress and was searching for a small manual pull cultipacker but didn't have any luck. I had considering making a cheap one out of coregated pipe, concrete, and a pipe sleeve down the middle to serve as a make shift bearing.


----------



## Movingshrub

j4c11 said:


> What about running a core aerator a couple times after sprigging, that should put quite a bit of dirt on top of the sprigs.


I was re-reading my OP, to see how my experience has changed from three different sprigging occasions. I recall reading an article that indicates you can use a core aerator, ran over the area multiple times in different directions, to accomplish the top dressing aspect over the stolons. If I I find the article, I'll edit and update this post.


----------



## Still learnin

How's the progress coming?


----------



## Movingshrub

14 days after planting


----------



## sanders4617

Did you purchase the sprigs again or harvest your own?


----------



## cglarsen

Movingshrub said:


> 14 days after planting


Looking good! I'm going to attempt this on a few thousand square feet this weekend. My plan is to verticut my Tiftuf sod that has been established for two months. Broadcast the stolons, topdress with sandy loam and water heavy.

What irrigation schedule do you recommend? A few minutes every hour initially and then reducing frequency over time?

Does compressing the stolons into the soil with equipment do any good or will the topdressing be sufficient?


----------



## ctrav

Movingshrub said:


> This was my yard Friday afternoon before I started working.
> 
> 
> Now that's putting in work!! :shock:


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> Did you purchase the sprigs again or harvest your own?


I harvested from my existing stand using a verticutter. My source area was about 7000 sqft. We ran the swardman verticutter over that three times until the battery ran out. There were more sprigs to be had, and were I using a gasoline machine or had another battery, I would have liked to make some more passes. With that said, I'm hoping what I planted is sufficient for establishment in one season.


----------



## Movingshrub

cglarsen said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> 14 days after planting
> 
> 
> 
> Looking good! I'm going to attempt this on a few thousand square feet this weekend. My plan is to verticut my Tiftuf sod that has been established for two months. Broadcast the stolons, topdress with sandy loam and water heavy.
> 
> What irrigation schedule do you recommend? A few minutes every hour initially and then reducing frequency over time?
> 
> Does compressing the stolons into the soil with equipment do any good or will the topdressing be sufficient?
Click to expand...

You might be fine with just sand. Pressing the stolons in helps; I just didn't care to do it. The objective is to maximize soil/sprig contact. My concern would be verticutting your new sod too soon. I haven't ever planted sod so I don't know how long, is long enough, before it's safe to do that to new sod.


----------



## Movingshrub

ctrav said:


> Now that's putting in work!! :shock:


You nailed it! That was Oct 2018 when I was leveling and preparing for seeding the PRG. That was likely a necessary step, but I didn't want to do the same thing again this year, which is why I burned off all the debris instead of renting a Harley rake again.


----------



## sanders4617

Movingshrub said:


> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you purchase the sprigs again or harvest your own?
> 
> 
> 
> I harvested from my existing stand using a verticutter. My source area was about 7000 sqft. We ran the swardman verticutter over that three times until the battery ran out. There were more sprigs to be had, and were I using a gasoline machine or had another battery, I would have liked to make some more passes. With that said, I'm hoping what I planted is sufficient for establishment in one season.
Click to expand...

I stolonized about 1500sq ft or so at the beginning of June. I hit it with water like I needed to and fertilized some.. but didn't go crazy with fertilizer. Mine has filled in almost completely in the areas that I placed the stolons. So just over a month and have a nice fill in.. I've mowed 4-5 times probably.. and will be spraying out the weeds very soon. And to mention.. I didn't broadcast them heavy at all.. probably should've put at least double what I did.

I think you'll do fine.. You've got 2 good months of growing I'd assume, and then it slows down a good bit from there.

How did the verticutter on the Swardman do? I used a straight pull-behind dethatcher that worked great and was incredibly fast/easy.


----------



## Movingshrub

sanders4617 said:


> I stolonized about 1500sq ft or so at the beginning of June. I hit it with water like I needed to and fertilized some.. but didn't go crazy with fertilizer. Mine has filled in almost completely in the areas that I placed the stolons. So just over a month and have a nice fill in.. I've mowed 4-5 times probably.. and will be spraying out the weeds very soon. And to mention.. I didn't broadcast them heavy at all.. probably should've put at least double what I did.
> 
> I think you'll do fine.. You've got 2 good months of growing I'd assume, and then it slows down a good bit from there.
> 
> How did the verticutter on the Swardman do? I used a straight pull-behind dethatcher that worked great and was incredibly fast/easy.


My only real concern has been the slope of my yard. The sand has regularly been washed off the turf and onto the sidewalk. As a result, I'm sure I've lost sprigs that would've otherwise been able to establish on a flat area. Furthermore, you just never really know when the growing season is going to end. I would love for it to be hot, sunny, with no clouds, and nice gentle showers three times a week, at night, for the next 12 weeks.

I thought the swardman did very well. @HungrySoutherner was running it and was generous enough to use his Swardman to help me harvest sprigs from my existing stand. A pull-behind dethatcher may have worked just as well but I didn't consider using one.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

sanders4617 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did you purchase the sprigs again or harvest your own?
> 
> 
> 
> I harvested from my existing stand using a verticutter. My source area was about 7000 sqft. We ran the swardman verticutter over that three times until the battery ran out. There were more sprigs to be had, and were I using a gasoline machine or had another battery, I would have liked to make some more passes. With that said, I'm hoping what I planted is sufficient for establishment in one season.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I stolonized about 1500sq ft or so at the beginning of June. I hit it with water like I needed to and fertilized some.. but didn't go crazy with fertilizer. Mine has filled in almost completely in the areas that I placed the stolons. So just over a month and have a nice fill in.. I've mowed 4-5 times probably.. and will be spraying out the weeds very soon. And to mention.. I didn't broadcast them heavy at all.. probably should've put at least double what I did.
> 
> I think you'll do fine.. You've got 2 good months of growing I'd assume, and then it slows down a good bit from there.
> 
> How did the verticutter on the Swardman do? I used a straight pull-behind dethatcher that worked great and was incredibly fast/easy.
Click to expand...

We ran the swardman till the battery died. I could have pulled a lot more sprigs if we'd had more juice. I think it did great all things considered. I'm working on a mod for the verticut reel that may improve it. You can get a lot of material out with it.


----------



## Movingshrub

August 2nd


----------



## Still learnin

Looking really good!


----------



## Movingshrub

Does anyone know what's driving the different in stolon color? Is it nutrient based? Age of that particular stolon? This difference isn't isolated; both colors appear all over the lawn.


----------



## Movingshrub

August 10th


----------



## Gibby

@Movingshrub looking great


----------



## Bunnysarefat

I dunno man. Plants just do weird things sometimes. I've seen the mutations Mendel became famous for observing in all kinds of plants. They just do weird things sometimes.


----------



## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> I dunno man. Plants just do weird things sometimes. I've seen the mutations Mendel became famous for observing in all kinds of plants. They just do weird things sometimes.


Is this in response to the stolon color difference?


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Movingshrub said:


> Does anyone know what's driving the different in stolon color? Is it nutrient based? Age of that particular stolon? This difference isn't isolated; both colors appear all over the lawn.


I posted on here about purple stolons in my Bermuda. Most people said it was lacking a nutrient. I put down some starter fert and it went away. Not sure if it was the high P or K but it helped.


----------



## captstoots

Any update? Are you going to overseed PGR this year?


----------



## Movingshrub

Today during lunch.


This is day 78.

I'm not going to overseed, at least not the front. I was advised to wait until next year so the rhizomes have a chance to get well established.


----------



## captstoots

Wow! Looks amazing!!


----------



## ctrav

Movingshrub said:


> Today during lunch.
> 
> 
> This is day 78.
> 
> I'm not going to overseed, at least not the front. I was advised to wait until next year so the rhizomes have a chance to get well established.


Great color!


----------



## Ware

Looking good! :thumbsup:


----------



## cglarsen

Looks tits - what's your HOC there?


----------



## Gibby

@Movingshrub how much fert did you use? Have you decided on pre-em?


----------



## Movingshrub

Gibby said:


> @Movingshrub how much fert did you use? Have you decided on pre-em?


I quit keeping track of nitrogen at a certain point. Work has been busy and I've had to go out of town. At the beginning, I was doing 0.5lb of N all purpose a week, then switched to 0.6lb of AMS on five day rotations, then a few weeks later, switched to about 0.25lb of N per week. I don't think the amount of N really matters that much so long as it isn't nitrogen deficient. Plus, I wanted to avoid swings in growth and cutting every other day.

In terms of pre em, I am likely going to do monument, simazine, and prodiamine in October prior to Halloween.


----------



## Movingshrub

cglarsen said:


> Looks tits - what's your HOC there?


Around 1.75". I was at 1.25" but life happened/ got busy and the HOC is now higher than I want,. However, I don't want to do a reset at this stage of the season so I'm sticking with this HOC for the season.


----------



## Gibby

Looks like I have 19 days till my 78 day mark and I hope mine looks 80% as good as yours. Having a horrible goosegrass issue right now.

What are you targeting with the simazine?


----------



## Movingshrub

Gibby said:


> Looks like I have 19 days till my 78 day mark and I hope mine looks 80% as good as yours. Having a horrible goosegrass issue right now.
> 
> What are you targeting with the simazine?


Annual bluegrass/poa annua


----------



## Movingshrub

I had been waffling for weeks on whether to plant PRG this season on the rest of the lawn. I finally applied pre-em yesterday so negative on PRG this fall.

Prodiamine 0.36 oz per 1k
Trifloxysulfuron 0.229 grams per 1k (10g/A rate)
Simazine 0.75 fl oz per 1k


----------



## Movingshrub

One thing I forgot to document this season is the sand run off I was getting every time it rained. This yard has a four degree slope, so not exactly substantial. I ended up shoveling sand off the sidewalk back onto the sprigs after each rain. Furthermore, sand would go into my sidewalk strip, which I had already leveled with sand. In hindsight, I would have leveled the sidewalk section after the sprigs were established, so as to attempt to avoid excess sand in sidewalk strip.


----------



## thompwa

Movingshrub said:


> One thing I forgot to document this season is the sand run off I was getting every time it rained. This yard has a four degree slope, so not exactly substantial. I ended up shoveling sand off the sidewalk back onto the sprigs after each rain. Furthermore, sand would go into my sidewalk strip, which I had already leveled with sand. In hindsight, I would have leveled the sidewalk section after the sprigs were established, so as to attempt to avoid excess sand in sidewalk strip.


I'm prepping to Do my first sand level at my house this summer. Probably going to take about 5 yards. Who did you end up using to get your sand?

I got a big metal drag made modeled after Connor Ward's but it may be overkill for my yard in S.Huntsville. I've got just over 3k so I may end up cutting it down a bit to make it more manageable.


----------



## Movingshrub

@thompwa I went to Alliance's location near ditto landing. It used to be baker sand and gravel. I went with masonry sand. It's about $30/ton.


----------



## Movingshrub

Time to dust off this thread.

The way my yard is laid out, there is a slope from the back property line, towards the front property line/street. The entire neighborhood has a grade from east to west. On my property, the water runs along the property line. However, when the rain really comes down, the water comes right towards my back door, which is sub optimal. This had occurred 2018/2019 when was were receiving double the normal amount of rain. I chalked up the problem as atypical. I was wrong. This was the second time this occurred in 2020. This is the amount of water coming from my neighbor's yard into mine. 


I had placed a double stack of excess pavers to construct a temporary berm, until I could alter the grade or construct a solution to manage the water. There is a high spot between the tree and the fence that forces the water to alter it's course from the property line towards the center of the lawn, rather than around the house. The pavers work to encourage the water to follow the intended route. With that said, the my paver berm doesn't t fix all the problems. 


The water also collects near the lower backdoor and the area next to the deck stairs. It turns out that location is actually a bowl and is the lowest location in the whole back yard. 


This situation was the first time it rained heavy enough during the day light, while I was home, where I was able to capture the situation with well lit photos. I dug a tiny trench during the thunderstorm to try to route the water around the house instead of through my backdoor. 


I was hoping to find a solution that didn't involve regrading my entire yard or filling the lawn full of catch basins like a parking lot.


----------



## southernbuckeye

Seems like two French drains tied into a main running out to the street could do the job.


----------



## Movingshrub

southernbuckeye said:


> Seems like two French drains tied into a main running out to the street could do the job.


I'm sure I will find out how right or wrong you are. More to follow.


----------



## Movingshrub

After finishing the deck construction, both over-budget and behind schedule, I accepted that the deck stairs shade the area next to the house that is also the lowest spot in the yard. The area doesn't have standing water but never seemed fully dry. So, after much discussion on the TLF discord, and way too much whiskey, I decided a French drain was in order. I had watched a variety of youtube channels, both the apple guy and the guy who has a hard-on for the yellow pipe, and figured it was time to install a French drain. The decision was made the same time daycare and schools starting closing in Alabama, so my kids were at home. My wife and I were also working from home, so in the spirit of good social distancing and avoiding renting an excavator, I thought it would be a good idea to dig the trench by hand; all 120' by 12"+ by 18" of it.


You might be able to tell if you follow the brick lines, that the grade goes up as you get closer to the downspout. It's about a 3" drop from the corner of the house to the deck. Also, I don't have any downspouts draining in this area.




My intent was to use the French drain like a giant channel drain, but without the actual channel. I was hoping water would perforate through sand quick enough so that I would not have to use gravel, as a result, I went 100% sand. I did D2729 pipe for everything, perforated in the backyard, then solid once I got around the back of the house. I used 100% masonry sand as the filler material, with a sock I got a the orange box store to keep the sand from going into the pipe.

Part of the fun is knowing when you're likely going to find your irrigation laterals. I ended up using four 90s to go over each pipe; two regular 90s, then the necessary amount of pipe to get over the 4" drain pipe, then street 90s.











I shoved a water hose full blast into a cleanout I installed close to the deck and about five-ten minutes later I had water showing up at the pop emitter. Now all I had to do was wait for a good rain to see if this thing was going to work.


----------



## Movingshrub

Then it rained. A lot. 


The water washed out sand from the french drain trench (if anyone has input on how to manage that during grow-in, I'm all ears). Water continued to pile up at my back door. I had also moved the pavers and used the dirt spoils from digging the trench to create a substantial dirt berm in the interim.



It rained and rained and rain. We had a slow rain over several hours then a massive downpour.


The result was enough water where I was concerned about water coming into the backdoor. I will say, the French drain did work. Water was coming out of the emitter, but I just don't think the system was able to take in water quick enough; surface vs subsurface water.

As a result, I ended up installing a catch basin. I hope this is the end of my lesson on surface water management.


----------



## southernbuckeye

I've done a few of these in the past and it never ceases to amaze me how much water will get in there. What size pipe did you end up using? Also, major props on digging it all by hand. Holy cow, no thanks!

Also, we have the same water table as you. And I don't mean water table as in your post, I mean the important one-the kiddie one on the patio


----------



## thompwa

Holy cow man, you aren't scared of a little work. Great job. Tough part about jobs like that is that you finish and all your hard work gets buried and no one appreciates how much it sucked more than you....every single freaking time it rains from now on.


----------



## Movingshrub

southernbuckeye said:


> I've done a few of these in the past and it never ceases to amaze me how much water will get in there. What size pipe did you end up using? Also, major props on digging it all by hand. Holy cow, no thanks!
> 
> Also, we have the same water table as you. And I don't mean water table as in your post, I mean the important one-the kiddie one on the patio


I used 4" pipe. The catch basin in 9"x 9". I haven't been able to find the flow rate of the catch basin but I'm assuming it's less than the pipe. Also, I've got a 4" pop up emitter on the exit side, which has a flow rate of 40 GPM. I would like to confirm that the emitter is not the limiting factor of this design.


----------



## Movingshrub

thompwa said:


> Holy cow man, you aren't scared of a little work. Great job. Tough part about jobs like that is that you finish and all your hard work gets buried and no one appreciates how much it sucked more than you....every single freaking time it rains from now on.


Nailed it. On the one-hand, I want it to rain good and hard now so I can confirm if I need to change any thing else while the sand is easy to dig up. On the other hand, I would prefer the bermuda grow-in over all the areas I disturbed rather than washing the sand away.


----------



## Movingshrub

The upside to social distancing has been ALL of the yard work I have been able to accomplish without social obligations.

I had some ligustrums that I likely damaged either chemically or with fire when I burned my yard last year. There should be leaves at the bottom. 


I tried to prune them to fix it, but the growth didn't come back like I wanted. As a result, I opted to prune them down to a foot and start over.



Afterwards, I planted Crimson Fire loropetalums. 


I had a hard time finding all of them at one nursery. I notice when I got home that two products with the same cultivar label, didn't match in leaf size and color. Someone, somewhere, screwed up. I managed to get a credit at the nursery for the ones that didn't match, which I'm sure my wife will find a way to use.


I also replaced an Emerald Green Arborvitae that went to the forest in the sky last year. I don't know if it was too much water, too little water, disease, etc. that lead to its demise. Anyways, hopefully the replacement does better than its predecessor.

I also snagged/repurposed some curbside colmet that I'm going to drive into the ground after a good rain to try to keep the bermuda away from the ornamentals.


----------



## DuncanMcDonuts

@sanders4617 and @Movingshrub , do you guys have close up pictures of the sprigs you harvested with your dethatcher? I tried harvesting sprigs from sod by running my SunJoe verticutter over it, but I felt like it was more or less just cutting the grass blades and not giving a good piece with roots.

So instead, I flipped the sod over with the dirt up and ran the verticutter that way to cut up the sod into smaller sod pieces, almost like plugs. I planted them about 2 weeks ago and have been heavily watering. They've greened up and are well alive, but at this rate, I don't think I'll have full coverage over this 1000 sq ft for another month (6 weeks total). I'm curious if I could have harvest sprigs better and established faster versus the "plugs" I created.


----------



## Movingshrub

@DuncanMcDonuts 
Lower the verticutter height down. Your goal is to rip the stolons out. This isn't the time to baby it.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=71107#p71107

Even with sprigs, I would expect two months to grow in.


----------



## WDE46

DuncanMcDonuts said:


> @sanders4617 and @Movingshrub , do you guys have close up pictures of the sprigs you harvested with your dethatcher? I tried harvesting sprigs from sod by running my SunJoe verticutter over it, but I felt like it was more or less just cutting the grass blades and not giving a good piece with roots.
> 
> So instead, I flipped the sod over with the dirt up and ran the verticutter that way to cut up the sod into smaller sod pieces, almost like plugs. I planted them about 2 weeks ago and have been heavily watering. They've greened up and are well alive, but at this rate, I don't think I'll have full coverage over this 1000 sq ft for another month (6 weeks total). I'm curious if I could have harvest sprigs better and established faster versus the "plugs" I created.


6 weeks for full coverage is pretty good.


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## DuncanMcDonuts

@Movingshrub I set the verticutter with fixed blades as low as it would go, which is I think -10mm.

I thought I'd get pieces more like this









but what I was getting looked more like what my dethatcher would pull up with dead material. Is that what your harvested sprigs looked like? I was worried I wasn't getting a full plant.

@WDE46 I guesstimate 6 weeks after reading Movingshrub's sprigs took 4 weeks to fill. I'm not sure if my "plugs" are spreading yet, but I'm aggressively adding 0.5lb of N a week with regular intervals of irrigation equaling to about 4"+ of water a week. My schedule is about:
1st week - 0.05" water every 1-2 hours
2nd week - 0.1" water every 2-4 hours
3rd week - 0.15" water every 6 hours

The variable times depended on the weather and if I'd see any water run off or standing water. The plugs were planted into screened chocolate loam so it retains plenty of moisture. I'm hoping it grows in that quickly with how much I'm pushing it. Movingshrub, when did you start mowing the areas to encourage more lateral growth?


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## Movingshrub

I didn't mow to encourage growth. I mowed when it needed to be cut. I think it was probably week four, just because of how wet everything was with consent irrigation.

Also, four weeks would be extremely fast based on my results. Probably best to plan for eight. It looked totally filled in around 90 days.

N doesn't matter that much, other than making you need to cut more. I was probably doing way too my N on my first sprigging project.


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## cglarsen

Movingshrub said:


> southernbuckeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've done a few of these in the past and it never ceases to amaze me how much water will get in there. What size pipe did you end up using? Also, major props on digging it all by hand. Holy cow, no thanks!
> 
> Also, we have the same water table as you. And I don't mean water table as in your post, I mean the important one-the kiddie one on the patio
> 
> 
> 
> I used 4" pipe. The catch basin in 9"x 9". I haven't been able to find the flow rate of the catch basin but I'm assuming it's less than the pipe. Also, I've got a 4" pop up emitter on the exit side, which has a flow rate of 40 GPM. I would like to confirm that the emitter is not the limiting factor of this design.
Click to expand...

I did a similar curtain drain project to this last year and had some issues using sand as well. First, understand that the competence of particle size. It doesn't take much energy to move sand particles...I had to reinforce the ditch ends with larger diameter river rock. Second, 4 inch pipe on low-gradient slopes doesn't carry enough water for your situation. I used 6 inch and still was inundated during heavy rains. Figure out your catchment area and we can size your drainage pipe correctly...in lieu of that use the biggest you can fit in the trench.

If you are still struggling with the catch basin installed my advice is to reduce your active drainage area and install diversion berms or other ways to keep water off of your property. It'll always be a struggle being low - better to divert than discharge stormwater.


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## Movingshrub

@cglarsen At this point, I do not think pipe size is an issue. Water is only going to move so fast through the sand, no matter what pipe size I install. In terms of the slope, I have a 1% slope for about 30' then it turns into 5% slope as it goes downhill towards the street.

I used the spoils of the dirt from installing the drain to create a small berm, and I also changed the grade so as to eliminate a bowl shape. Hopefully this combined approach resolves my problem. I'm running out of tricks.


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## cglarsen

Movingshrub said:


> @cglarsen At this point, I do not think pipe size is an issue. Water is only going to move so fast through the sand, no matter what pipe size I install. In terms of the slope, I have a 1% slope for about 30' then it turns into 5% slope as it goes downhill towards the street.
> 
> I used the spoils of the dirt from installing the drain to create a small berm, and I also changed the grade so as to eliminate a bowl shape. Hopefully this combined approach resolves my problem. I'm running out of tricks.


Yes the sand backfill won't allow infiltration at the rate that gravel will but it still should move ponded water. Maybe add another catch basin or two in problem areas. I can tell you from experience that once you get your drainage system working right, the rain will stop.


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## Lawn Burgundy

cglarsen said:


> Yes the sand backfill won't allow infiltration at the rate that gravel will but it still should move ponded water. Maybe add another catch basin or two in problem areas. I can tell you from experience that once you get your drainage system working right, the rain will stop.


isn't that the truth :lol: , possibly try washing and waxing your car that might make it rain!


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## Movingshrub

In hind sight, I might have been able to go with just catch basins, without the ordeal of the french drain. With that all said, the solution I have so far has stopped way from collecting at my backdoor, which was my primary concern.


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## Movingshrub

This picture is from July 7th.
The turf was cut on the 5th.



This picture is from today. 

Time for an update.

Top dressed settled areas with sand over the weekend.

Currently transitioning from 0.50" to 0.75".

I am spraying tnex at 0.50 fluid ounces per M and raising my N rates from 0.1lb every 14-21 days to 0.2-0.25lb per week. The grass was looking bad, the temps haven't been warm, and it's perfect for dollarspot. It was time for some N.


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## Movingshrub

On a different note, @HungrySoutherner and I are testing different PGR rates on Tiftuf in my back yard.

Sprayed on afternoon of July 9th


July 13th after scalped at 0.25"


Today


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## HungrySoutherner

To much dang rain...


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## Bunnysarefat

Loved the drainage project. I found that all the calculation on GPM and CFS are just as good as closing one eye and using your imagination on how it will work. (also I'm not great at math)


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## Movingshrub

Bunnysarefat said:


> Loved the drainage project. I found that all the calculation on GPM and CFS are just as good as closing one eye and using your imagination on how it will work. (also I'm not great at math)


You're invited next time I dig a 120' trench. I think your build is more suited for it than mine; it was not a fun task but seemed to solve the problem.


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## Bunnysarefat

@Movingshrub always rent the trench digger. Always.


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