# People who consider grass a nuisance to be tamed



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

It's partially my fault because I didn't have time to trim last week, but in the past few days, an acquaintance (a homeowner) trimmed one of the lawns in our family. Today I looked at it, and found piles of 12-inch long seedheads strewn about around post footings, and a 6x8 section of grass that you can't get a mower into, scalped almost down to bare dirt. It had been high before that. Had to rake out the clippings, which created a pile of hay (more of which was strewn about the hardscape, creating a mess on your feet after it started drizzling, which I will have to sweep up or something once it dries out).

Will have to throw down some Milo on that section to get it growing again. Last year, the same person mowed 8-inch grass down to 1 inch in the heat of the Summer during a drought, leaving thick clippings everywhere. (After that, I hardly had to mow that lawn for the next 3 months!) And then they snowblowed some of it out of the lawn over the Winter.

If substitute mowers at country clubs or on college campuses did this sort of thing, they'd be fired! This, unfortunately, is how most people trim and mow.

As an aside, it's also some pros, too, even though they're usually a lot neater and more precise than average trimmer-wielding homeowners. Members of my immediate family have commented to me at times about the lawns of friends who use pros as well..."Those landscapers...they mow really short. I guess that's how they do it, because when I broke my arm and couldn't mow, Mr. so-and-so mowed short, too". I keep saying, "If you're paying them, you can tell them you want it mowed at a specific height. You don't have to let them scalp it just cause they're a pro!"


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## zinger565 (Nov 28, 2017)

Oh man, I feel your pain, not with family member yards, but neighbors. We live in a "historic" district with on average 90-100 year old homes. This generally leads to small yards, but for whatever reason, everyone in our neighborhood seems to mow sub 2". This year I started to mow high, and the grass is responding great and looks healthy. However, my wife commented that our lot looks "overgrown" and "shaggy" compared to everyone around us.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I think many of the "pros" who mow low do it because that's what many clueless homeowners want. All the decks are set for what most people want; they show up; they mow and blow.

Almost all the "pros" who care about maintaining healthy turf would be overjoyed to mow taller if that's what someone wants. The so-called "mow crows" aren't, but they are not "pros."


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

I wondered why pros don't use PGR but then it was obvious to me. They don't care about the grass actually looking good they just care about showing up and doing the job so they create the appearance of work to justify their pay.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Bunnysarefat said:


> I wondered why pros don't use PGR but then it was obvious to me. They don't care about the grass actually looking good they just care about showing up and doing the job so they create the appearance of work to justify their pay.


And to add interest, PGRs have many other benefits beyond less mowing.
http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/other_benefits_of_plant_growth_retardants

But I have to ask - the "appearance of work"? I don't do it but I think cutting lawns all day qualifies as actual work :nod:


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
> 
> 
> > I wondered why pros don't use PGR but then it was obvious to me. They don't care about the grass actually looking good they just care about showing up and doing the job so they create the appearance of work to justify their pay.
> ...


I mean if they sprayed PGR and didn't show up for 2 weeks when the customer pays for weekly mowings that's not going to work out too well for them. So instead of showing up and rolling over a lawn that doesn't need cutting they just don't bother with PGR.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

As far as pros go, my observations are that a lot of mow guys and even some landscapers, are either clueless about grass mowing height, or don't really care. Most fert guys seem to know a lot more, as they have to. But anyone with a business doing outdoor work who mows grass is considered a pro. I do think the real problem is the homeowners, though.

One of my neighbors actually has their lawn mowed every 2 weeks purposely. The guy has to double cut it with his Z-turn Toro, which sounds like it runs at a pretty high rpm. It's a big improvement over what they used to do, though and it actually looks good at times.

Now, don't tell anyone...but watching the grounds guys in college, I noticed that some of them mowed slightly higher and some mowed slightly lower than others...always in the 2.75-3.5 inch range, though. So, even grounds guys vary a bit. I would think the boss would give them feedback, though. But that KBG was fertilized and irrigated all times of the year. Not to mention, the carts were always running over a few sections near the sidewalks, damaging them, and then they'd have to resod or reseed before parent's weekend.

Of course, most of us are trying to take quality up to the next level on this site. If anyone (family members, spouses, girlfriends, friends, uncles, whatever) ever questions your perfectionism, or careful IPM chemical use, or buying a new mower that costs $2,000 or spreader that costs $600, note that grounds crews at some colleges, resorts, mansions, and high profile clients are no different than us. If you enjoy doing it, you're saving tens of thousands of dollars per year (and possibly hundreds of thousands if you have a larger yard) doing it yourself to that standard. For many of us, it's the only financially practical way to achieve that level.

Me personally? Haven't even bought a backpack sprayer...doing everything with a hand can over 15K. Small tools can get the job done.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Bunnysarefat said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
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> 
> > Bunnysarefat said:
> ...


You're right; you could save a boatload of money on the cuts. :thumbup: Maybe you should call a licensed applicator and price a full growing season PGR program; compare the cost of mowing over the same season. Please get back to us with what you find out.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> As far as pros go, my observations are that a lot of mow guys and even some landscapers, are either clueless about grass mowing height, or don't really care. Most fert guys seem to know a lot more, as they have to. But anyone with a business doing outdoor work who mows grass is considered a pro. I do think the real problem is the homeowners, though.
> 
> One of my neighbors actually has their lawn mowed every 2 weeks purposely. The guy has to double cut it with his Z-turn Toro, which sounds like it runs at a pretty high rpm. It's a big improvement over what they used to do, though and it actually looks good at times.
> 
> ...


I think you're probably right in the aggregate. It doesn't take much to start a lawn care business - anyone can do that.. That's because most customers only care about price and justifiably just don't know or care to know about how to maintain a lawn. As you alude to, all the fert guys know more because they have to get that license. But many, many are passionate about landscaping and lawn care and know alot for the same reasons homeowners who maintain their own elite lawns do: they are just into it.

The grounds guys are generally going to go at things differently because they are maintaining turf to a performance standard. Yes, it has to look good but more importantly, it has to play good. Whatever it takes to achieve that within the club budget will be done. The course superintendent has the ultimate final say and takes the heat if the standards he or she sets don't produce best possible playability with good appearance. I think fairway turf would be healthier generally if mowed a bit higher. You'd never find a ball in it or be able to hit off it but it would be healthy. What I'm getting at is that while golf course cultural practices are interesting, they're far from the last word on anything and they do things for lots of reasons far aside from what matters on a typical home lawn.

As far as next level, many of the big landscaping companies have turf specialists with advanced degrees on staff. There are also "boutique" operations that rival golf course superintendents (some are former golf course superintendents). They can take it to any level you want (and can afford  ). If you enjoy doing it, more power to you. I wish everyone took more of an interest in the landscape and environment. As you have discovered, it can be very enjoyable and rewarding.


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## Bunnysarefat (May 4, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > As far as pros go, my observations are that a lot of mow guys and even some landscapers, are either clueless about grass mowing height, or don't really care. Most fert guys seem to know a lot more, as they have to. But anyone with a business doing outdoor work who mows grass is considered a pro. I do think the real problem is the homeowners, though.
> ...


I was talking more about the home lawn crews like the ones my neighbor uses who shows up once a week and scalps the grass down to the ground, blows it off the street and calls it good. Surely the vast majority of lawn care pros are in this category. There's not a huge market for really high end lawn care unless you live in a palace.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Bunnysarefat said:


> I was talking more about the home lawn crews like the ones my neighbor uses who shows up once a week and scalps the grass down to the ground, blows it off the street and calls it good. Surely the vast majority of lawn care pros are in this category. There's not a huge market for really high end lawn care unless you live in a palace.


And a lot of those guys were homeowners or started as high school kids who said, "I'm going to start a lawn mowing business", but either didn't learn much more than how their equipment works, because they didn't know how interesting grass is, or they didn't care. Again, the real issue is how people do things on their own properties.

Don't cut non-irrigated, low-input cool-season lawns or Tall Fescue lawns at 1.5 inches, especially in places where there isn't enough rain. Don't bag clippings all the time, and scalp everything with our trimmer, damage tree trunks, blow the debris into the street, etc.

Homeowners and low-end "pros" alike are guilty of this stuff. A yard down the road from me used to be in really good shape, owned by a farming family. Nice Tall Fescue lawn with a garden. Irrigation system. The new owners never watered, had the yard destroyed by tree removal, planted flowers in the middle of the lawn, let those flowers die, and then did nothing else. It looks horrible now.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Bunnysarefat said:


> . . . There's not a huge market for really high end lawn care unless you live in a palace.


To put a finer point on it, there's a huge market for high end lawn care; there's little market for what that quality of service costs. When the first question is always "how much," you get what you pay for.

You seem to resent the mow and blow guys. They are just doing what they get paid to do - do it fast and cheap.

If you want someone who knows what they're doing, they're out there. They will spend more time at your property and use lots of expensive products throughout the course of the year. They will do a good job. It will cost you more. You choose.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> If you want someone who knows what they're doing, they're out there. They will spend more time at your property and use lots of expensive products throughout the course of the year. They will do a good job. It will cost you more. You choose.


And this, friends, is one of many reasons we chose to do it ourselves.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

It's interesting that the subject of why a lot of pros don't bring up PGR to the homeowners is in this thread. I was forwarded this email by my local extension agent that was written by one of the turfgrass specialists at UGA. You might find this interesting, of particular note, the last sentence. This is a "blog" that is provided to the GA Urban Ag Council membership.



> Spring 2018 Turfgrass Update #2
> 
> Clint Waltz, Ph.D.
> University of Georgia Turfgrass Specialist
> ...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Check out what just happened...

I'm doing my very best to understand what's going on next door. They normally have a pro LCO mow trim blow guy who usually comes every 2 weeks on a weekday and mows at 3.5 inches or so and takes a half hour.

But today starting around 10, these 2 guys came and are still at it now. They used the homeowner's riding mower and are trimming now. First they side discharged with the HOC set all the way down. Then they went over it a few more times and bagged. They stalled the mower and jerked it too many times to count, and hit objects so many times. It's all brown now. I have no idea what's going on. A family member of mine said to me maybe they're prepping to overseed. So far, I haven't seen any evidence of that, and the yard didn't look like it needed overseeding. I wonder if my neighbor is trying to save money. It's been 3 and a half hours already. I don't want to go out and have to talk with these guys!

Edit: They just left. Not sure if that's just for lunch or for the day. Or forever.

Obviously they considered the lawn a nuisance to be scalped so it goes away as much as possible. As long as they didn't come into my yard or discharge junk into it!

Pic with my yard on the left and theirs on the right:


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Ouch. Maybe they are planning a Reno??


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Check out what just happened...
> 
> I'm doing my very best to understand what's going on next door. They normally have a pro LCO mow trim blow guy who usually comes every 2 weeks on a weekday and mows at 3.5 inches or so and takes a half hour.
> 
> ...


They used the customer's riding mower too. Must be some real "professionals." :lol: I can't see it being related to an overseed - July in Connecticut - it wouldn't stand a chance. I'd bet the neighbor got offered a cheaper price by a couple of guys who don't have a clue. I hope they enjoy all the money they saved when their entire lawn dies over the next several weeks.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith, they're still watering. And I was enjoying the lack of crabgrass next door and on the border. This is the second scalp this year (this month). One of the family members who lives there (a guy my age who I know) accidentally scalped it a few weeks ago (but actually only cut it down to about 2-3 inches from like 7). He sort of cares what's happening, and so I offered him advice about setting the mower height. And now this happens. I think they had it set at the very lowest height. Lawn is a KBG, FF, PR, TF, and weed hodgepodge, but it was halfway decent and somewhat thick before this. It took a while to get to that point over the past 2 years...several overseeds, Chemlawn almost every month including Pre-M, the mow guy.

Edit: water is off now. I hope it's done.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Edit: water is off now. I hope it's done.


Hope so also. I have a bet though that the two geniuses will be back soon enough spraying all sorts of expensive stuff to "cure" what amounts to the stress they caused. :lol: I guess that's one way to market - scalp it and then offer to cure the fearsome "scalped the crap out of it" disease. 

They should have plenty of more healthy weeds in a couple weeks. :thumbup:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Green said:
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> 
> > Edit: water is off now. I hope it's done.
> ...


Well, a lawn service came today and put down granular fert (I asked the guy). Any predictions on what might happen? I'm not sure if it will help it green up and recover, or burn up even more...


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
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> > Green said:
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Ah, there we go. The "cure" as predicted. July is the toughest month for cool season turf. If it's not well irrigated or even if it is and temps spike, they are just frying the grass and fertilizing more weed growth  Something to do with the chloride load of fert interfering with the plant's osmotic water balance and ability to take in water, plus forcing growth when it's hot / dry and stressed to the max Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope they water like there's no tomorrow or it will just get a lot worse before it gets any better.

These guys could write the book on how to kill a lot of cool season grass. Wait until it's the hottest month of the year, scalp it, spread fert all over it. Geniuses. :roll:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Ah, there we go. The "cure" as predicted. July is the toughest month for cool season turf. If it's not well irrigated or even if it is and temps spike, they are just frying the grass and fertilizing more weed growth  Something to do with the chloride load of fert interfering with the plant's osmotic water balance and ability to take in water, plus forcing growth when it's hot / dry and stressed to the max Dumb, dumb, dumb. I hope they water like there's no tomorrow or it will just get a lot worse before it gets any better.
> 
> These guys could write the book on how to kill a lot of cool season grass. Wait until it's the hottest month of the year, scalp it, spread fert all over it. Geniuses. :roll:


And now my neighbors are watering twice a day! Including right now, and wetting a few feet over into mine. To be fair, it's an area that can use extra water due to roots, but not at this time of day, every day. I wonder who set the timer...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith, guess who showed up this morning...
The pro. He was done in less than half the time it normally takes. He didn't have to mow everywhere, didn't trim, and didn't blow. I think he cut a little off. Looks like some of their grass might be dead, but the majority survived. There is some crabgrass popping up. Doubt it would have without the scalping.


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