# Leveling Sand



## Ben1206

Hi everyone first post I live in the San Francisco Bay Area I have 50% PRG 50% KBG lawn it's about 6 months old and the soil has settled through out the lawn. My question is what type of sand is best for leveling and should I mix the sand with top soil.

Thanks 
Ben


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## gm560

I think most people use masonry sand and do not mix it with anything for leveling an existing lawn. If you haven't seen yet, @wardconnor has great youtube videos showing his process.


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## Ben1206

Thanks for the response, I have seen that I've also seen people say don't use straight sand so I'm a little confused.


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## g-man

Welcome to TLF. Awesome looking lawn.

The video from Connor is a great how to guide. In reality any sand could work, but mason sand is the best. It is screened to remove the small rocks (save your reel) and it is fine enough to get easier into the your topsoil instead of sitting on top of the grass. Make sure it is dry when you are applying it.


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## Shindoman

Using straight sand will give you the best levelling results. Organic material is mixed with it to provide nutrients. I use straight sand on a regular basis but then I use a lot of fertilizer to provide food.
From the looks of your pic you don't have an issue with a wet yard that sand also helps with. 
You might want to add some peat to the sand.
Your lawn looks great!


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## Austinite

I used screened chocolate loam. Did the trick. This year I'll be doing more in the backyard with the same stuff. Very fine and sinks in nicely. No clumping.


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## craigdt

Um wow.

Some nice lawns there.

Some of you would get your reel mowers lost in my low areas :lol:

So for someone who has 3-4" tall fescue thats not already like a putting green, is the process basically the same?

Cut the grass low and just start dumping sand and spread around?

And can you explain why straight sand is better for leveling, as compared to bringing in topsoil?


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## gm560

craigdt said:


> Um wow.
> 
> Some nice lawns there.
> 
> Some of you would get your reel mowers lost in my low areas :lol:
> 
> So for someone who has 3-4" tall fescue thats not already like a putting green, is the process basically the same?
> 
> Cut the grass low and just start dumping sand and spread around?
> 
> And can you explain why straight sand is better for leveling, as compared to bringing in topsoil?


I think that is basically the process. Cut it low, drop the sand, spread it around, and let the grass grow though it. The key is to spread it around enough as to not smother the grass. If they cannot see the light, they will die. This is why people prefer sand. Normal top soil, compost, etc has a tendency to clump and thus will be much much more difficult to spread evenly and to work down into the grass as to not smother it. Additionally, anything with organic material in it will eventually decompose, but not at the same rate or to the same size. This means that over time your leveling will become not so level. This will not be an issue with sand.


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## silvercymbal

Austinite said:


> I used screened chocolate loam. Did the trick. This year I'll be doing more in the backyard with the same stuff. Very fine and sinks in nicely. No clumping.


This sounds like a great idea!


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## silvercymbal

Ben1206 said:


> Hi everyone first post I live in the San Francisco Bay Area I have 50% PRG 50% KBG lawn it's about 6 months old and the soil has settled through out the lawn. My question is what type of sand is best for leveling and should I mix the sand with top soil.
> 
> Thanks
> Ben


You might find my video helpful on this topic as well...


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## Scagfreedom48z+

silvercymbal said:


> Ben1206 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi everyone first post I live in the San Francisco Bay Area I have 50% PRG 50% KBG lawn it's about 6 months old and the soil has settled through out the lawn. My question is what type of sand is best for leveling and should I mix the sand with top soil.
> 
> Thanks
> Ben
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might find my video helpful on this topic as well...
Click to expand...

Great video. Have you had any experience applying a topsoil and sand mixture? Say a 70% top soil to 30% sand? I'm going to rent an eco spreader for my Reno and have been contemplating using a sand/loam mix.


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## silvercymbal

Thank you kindly. Most of the topsoil mixtures have some sand component in them. Only the pure compost ones have no sand. I would think 70/30 would be a good mix for good growth and to provide drainage and firmness while being completely compatible with your underlying base and not creating any layering which can be problematic.

For application: The ecolawns are amazing for larger areas. I was a day late buying a used one at a bargain price but renting is likely a better option since the running costs can be pricey when parts wear out so renting will be a good move and save a LOT of effort and give a perfect spreading pattern.


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## wardconnor

Here is my other sand video

It is easy to do... but a lot of work

Let me know if you have any further questions. The trick is to mow the lawn as low as you feel comfortable before you top dress. This will make your life so much easier when it comes to spreading it out. Once it is cut low you have to work fast while the lawn is low or the lawn will grow up again and make it more difficult to spread the sand.

https://youtu.be/SDWwv0zWk98


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## craigdt

Crazy thought:
Has anyone ever tried feeding sand through a broadcast spreader?

Or would it fail miserably, because it is much more fine than the typical granulate material that they are designed for?

Edit:
Or maybe a drop spreader would work better? Less potential for bridging, maybe?


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## osuturfman

craigdt said:


> Crazy thought:
> Has anyone ever tried feeding sand through a broadcast spreader?
> 
> Or would it fail miserably, because it is much more fine than the typical granulate material that they are designed for?
> 
> Edit:
> Or maybe a drop spreader would work better? Less potential for bridging, maybe?


You sure can!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/597768926119010304
Some golf courses use broadcast spreaders to apply sand. It's kiln dried sand, and in some cases, sold by the 50 bag. I would not recommend using play sand or anything like you buy at a big box. Call companies that supply golf course and sports turf customers with topdressing sand and ask about their packaging/delivery options for kiln dried sand.

DO NOT use wet, damp, or moist sand in a broadcast spreader unless you like self-punishment.


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## Ben1206

wardconnor said:


> Here is my other sand video
> 
> It is easy to do... but a lot of work
> 
> Let me know if you have any further questions. The trick is to mow the lawn as low as you feel comfortable before you top dress. This will make your life so much easier when it comes to spreading it out. Once it is cut low you have to work fast while the lawn is low or the lawn will grow up again and make it more difficult to spread the sand.


I've watched many of your videos your lawn is were I want mine to be, couple of questions for you. Do you aerate your lawn prior to top dressing, do you fertilize when you use straight sand and last what type of sand do you use.

Thanks 
Ben


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## wardconnor

@Ben1206

Just like previously mentioned by @osuturfman trying to put wet or damp sand through a broadcast spreader is next to impossible. Sorry..... adding wet sand to the spreader is easy, getting to broadcast is not easy. I have tried it. The sand that I get comes from where they mine it and it is washed and screened. I am assuming that they use water to do this process so the sand always comes to me by the dump truck load and is always wet. It always clumps and clogs the spreader when I have tried to put it in the spreader. I am sure that it would work great if it was dry like was mentioned. Trying to dry it out for me might prove to be a royal pain. I am not sure because I have not tried to dry it out.

I use screened sand to 2mm. I am not sure of what kind of sand it is. I am thinking that it is a sharp sand. It is not ultra fine powder like a play sand. I think that people refer to it as a masons sand. It is screened so its pretty fine but it is not powder or like play sand. I would try to locate someone in your area that possibly supplies to your local golf courses. Whatever they are using would work for you.

Yes i did  aerate before I put down and top dressed with sand. I also did this same thing last year as well. Aerate and then topdress. It is a crazy amount of work..... but it works well.


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## wardconnor

@Ben1206

Just like previously mentioned by @osuturfman trying to put wet or damp sand through a broadcast spreader is next to impossible. Sorry..... adding wet sand to the spreader is easy, getting to broadcast is not easy. I have tried it. The sand that I get comes from where they mine it and it is washed and screened. I am assuming that they use water to do this process so the sand always comes to me by the dump truck load and is always wet. It always clumps and clogs the spreader when I have tried to put it in the spreader. I am sure that it would work great if it was dry like was mentioned. Trying to dry it out for me might prove to be a royal pain. I am not sure because I have not tried to dry it out.

I use screened sand to 2mm. I am not sure of what kind of sand it is. I am thinking that it is a sharp sand. It is not ultra fine powder like a play sand. I think that people refer to it as a masons sand. It is screened so its pretty fine but it is not powder or like play sand. I would try to locate someone in your area that possibly supplies to your local golf courses. Whatever they are using would work for you.

Yes I did  aerate before I put down and top dressed with sand. I also did this same thing last year as well. Aerate and then topdress. It is a crazy amount of work..... but it works well.


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## jdc_lawnguy

Has anyone tried a machine like this? I thought about renting one last year but decided put in the manual work.

I am debating a sand top dress and potentially a second one later in the year if I do not overseed.

https://youtu.be/GHP0EqtSeWI


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## gm560

jdc_lawnguy said:


> Has anyone tried a machine like this? I thought about renting one last year but decided put in the manual work.
> 
> I am debating a sand top dress and potentially a second one later in the year if I do not overseed.


I would love to get my hands on one of those. I have topdressed my whole property a few times already in the few years I have lived in my house. It is never fun. I don't have an ATV or a riding mower, so it is all manual labor. Even just doing a few yards of material is backbreaking work if you are loading, hauling and spreading it by hand. I watched the video @silvercymbal posted and he mentions this machine. As soon as I saw it I started contemplating maybe trying to build my own, albeit smaller version. Basically envisioning a huge, motorized, broadcast spreader. Could harvest a motor from an old leaf blower, edger, or even power drill.... if its a long enough winter I may just go for it.


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## wardconnor

I would love to try one of those machines.


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## ABC123

I really want a toro sand pro to help with this task but there so expensive.


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## silvercymbal

Interesting thing is that the ecolawn machines are really miniature versions of manure spreaders that have been used on farms for years. Obvious the spreading wheels and belt speed are carefully timed but I think you could build your own with some effort. They are REALLY hard to find used.


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## gm560

Sounds like we have a market for an enthusiast/consumer product.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

silvercymbal said:


> Interesting thing is that the ecolawn machines are really miniature versions of manure spreaders that have been used on farms for years. Obvious the spreading wheels and belt speed are carefully timed but I think you could build your own with some effort. They are REALLY hard to find used.


I'm definitely going to rent one for my overseeding/Reno this year. Being able to spread loam with sand say 80/20 loam to sand, seed down and then use a roller. I feel that it's going to give the seed a great bed for germination. Im sure it would be dusty as heck but you can probably spread peat with it too.


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## Shindoman

I bought this thing a couple years ago. Bannerman Mini Topper. $800 in cad dollars so about $550 usd. It works pretty good, best if the sand is not too wet. I use about 1 1/2 yds. each time so I buy it months in advance and keep it tarped so it drys out a bit. Still a workout but gets a nice even spread. Then I use my Level Lute and a push broom. I want to buy a drag mat soon. I top dressed 4 times last season


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## Chris LI

Nice...as in everything; lawn, topdresser, backyard and backyard view! Did you purchase it online or at a brick and mortar store? That seems like a reasonable price range, and would pay for itself for folks like us who would use one regularly.


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## gm560

Shindoman said:


> I bought this thing a couple years ago. Bannerman Mini Topper. $800 in cad dollars so about $550 usd. It works pretty good, best if the sand is not too wet. I use about 1 1/2 yds. each time so I buy it months in advance and keep it tarped so it drys out a bit. Still a workout but gets a nice even spread. Then I use my Level Lute and a push broom. I want to buy a drag mat soon. I top dressed 4 times last season


Very cool. I thought about doing this over the upcoming growing season. Getting like 10 yards of sand and doing a thin coating once a week though the broadcast spreader. This seemed like a great idea, until I realized there is 0 chance I keep a giant pile of sand in the driveway all summer without my wife murdering me in my sleep.


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## Shindoman

I bought mine from a local Gardeners Co-Op. They ordered it from Bannerman directly. I found this link to buy online if you choose. 
https://www.pricelessproducts.com/item.php?ID=666&n=Bannerman-Mini-Topper


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## Shindoman

gm560 said:


> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought this thing a couple years ago. Bannerman Mini Topper. $800 in cad dollars so about $550 usd. It works pretty good, best if the sand is not too wet. I use about 1 1/2 yds. each time so I buy it months in advance and keep it tarped so it drys out a bit. Still a workout but gets a nice even spread. Then I use my Level Lute and a push broom. I want to buy a drag mat soon. I top dressed 4 times last season
> 
> 
> 
> Very cool. I thought about doing this over the upcoming growing season. Getting like 10 yards of sand and doing a thin coating once a week though the broadcast spreader. This seemed like a great idea, until I realized there is 0 chance I keep a giant pile of sand in the driveway all summer without my wife murdering me in my sleep.
Click to expand...

I built a little "sand box" that holds about 2 yds. behind some shrubs along my fence line. I get it dropped in the driveway and then haul it to the sandbox. keep it covered tight to keep the neighbourhood cats away!


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## Chris LI

Shindoman said:


> I bought mine from a local Gardeners Co-Op. They ordered it from Bannerman directly. I found this link to buy online if you choose.
> https://www.pricelessproducts.com/item.php?ID=666&n=Bannerman-Mini-Topper


Thanks


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Would it be wise to use one of these machines before or after seed down for better seed % of seed germination and potential washout protection?


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## TheTurfTamer

The HOC and density of the canopy should help you with the type of sand applicator. Seeing how tall your HOC is , I would use a broadcast spreader only for topdressing. Any type of broom, rake or drag will not work ( in my experience ).

Top dressing is a light application vs Leveling is a heavy application.


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## NewLawnJon

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Would it be wise to use one of these machines before or after seed down for better seed % of seed germination and potential washout protection?


I would do the seed after, since there are going to be areas both over and under 1/4" of material.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

NewLawnJon said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it be wise to use one of these machines before or after seed down for better seed % of seed germination and potential washout protection?
> 
> 
> 
> I would do the seed after, since there are going to be areas both over and under 1/4" of material.
Click to expand...

Thanks for info. I'm going to follow it up with the roller one seed down is complete


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## MassHole

Shindoman said:


>


OMG that view!


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## silvercymbal

No kidding, absolutely amazing!


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## Shindoman

MassHole said:


> Shindoman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OMG that view!
Click to expand...

We love it!


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## Chris LI

Only a slight ***** in the armor, since it's moving along. That's the time of the year to lay on the beautiful lawn and look at the skyline. :nod:


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## bushwacked

wardconnor said:


> Here is my other sand video
> 
> It is easy to do... but a lot of work
> 
> Let me know if you have any further questions. The trick is to mow the lawn as low as you feel comfortable before you top dress. This will make your life so much easier when it comes to spreading it out. Once it is cut low you have to work fast while the lawn is low or the lawn will grow up again and make it more difficult to spread the sand.


You mention dont smother it or it will die ... agreed, but was there some way you calculated or guessed at the first year of sand to start with?


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## CanadianGrassMan

Thanks for everyone's input. The one thing I don't understand is why you would aerate (remove plugs) and then level with sand. I assume a lot of sand would go into the holes. What's the benefit in that?

Also how much sand per 1000 sq ft of lawn roughly?


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## FuzzeWuzze

CanadianGrassMan said:


> Thanks for everyone's input. The one thing I don't understand is why you would aerate (remove plugs) and then level with sand. I assume a lot of sand would go into the holes. What's the benefit in that?
> 
> Also how much sand per 1000 sq ft of lawn roughly?


In general its done to get water and nutrients down the roots faster. Especially helpful if your in heavy clay where every time your lawn gets wet it sheds all the water off or creates giant pools because the clay is so bad at absorbing.


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## Ohio Lawn

How much harder would it be to do sand leveling on TTTF cut at 1.5"?


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