# Jesse's 2018 Restoration



## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Hey All-

I am bored and my lawn is under several inches of snow, so I figured I would start a thread for this upcoming season. I live in central CT and I have a mix of old school fescues mostly. (My house was built in 1918 and it looked like no one ever cared for the lawn since that time) Lawn is roughly 6500 sq ft. I use a cheapo craftsman rotary with a mulch blade I put on. I made a lot of really good progress this year by just adopting some of the basics like taller cuts and deeper watering. I did an aerate, partial overseed on labor day and had good results in the areas I did. While I absolutely drool over the low cut *** videos I've seen here, a renovation is not in the cards at this point. I just want a healthy lawn that is nice looking grass and not weeds.

I just completed a soil test from UCONN. Here are my results-



I did receive some recommendations from UConn for limestone and fert. 


My soil texture is clay loam from my unscientific mason jar test. 


Here are some pictures showing where I was as of this fall along with some before pics from the spring.

I did pretty well reseeding in the front yard last spring under the maple as the weed pressure here wasn't too bad. Got mostly grass except along the edges of the driveway and road.


Here was a before pic of this area-


I reseeded this area in the spring too, but as you can see, crabgrass took over most of this section and overall this was unsucessful. Full sun, tons of crabgrass. 


Here is my backyard in mid-september. I reseeded and watered the area on the right where I had large bare spots.


Here is the before pic of the backyard when I first moved in


Here you can see where either the salt or heat from the road cooked the grass (again, spring seeded this area) 


So as much as I will want to resume seeding in the spring, I am going to listen to G-man and work on improving the soil, leveling and smoothing, and getting the weeds down in spring and full aerate, overseed in the fall with Thor TTTF which is rated the highest up here according to NTEP. (open to suggestions on blends or other alternatives) 


One question I have is on the limestone recommendation. Since i have low PH along with low levels of calcium and magnesium I want dolomitic limestone, right? I cannot seem to find that at the big box stores, is there a common brand I should look for? What about Jonathan Green's Mag-i-cal product for raising soil PH, has anyone used that product? Also, I have Azaleas and Rhododendrons in the backyard. Do I just take care not to lime right up to them since they like the acidic soil?

My next question is around irrigation. Installing an in-ground irrigation system is not in the cards (or my budget). I've seen some photos here of people with hoses with multiple impact sprinklers attached. Any links or suggestions? I plan on getting a second hose this year so I have one for the front and one for the backyard. I'll attach them to a splitter so I can easily go from watering the front to the back.

Lastly, I know there are several types of pre-em for crabgrass control. What is recommended given I will be resseding in September?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and help out a newb. I'm loving my new found hobby and can't wait for spring! 

Jesse


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Nice thread, Jesse.



jessehurlburt said:


> overseed in the fall with Thor TTTF which is rated the highest up here according to NTEP. (open to suggestions on blends or other alternatives)


It would be a good idea to use several TTTF cultivars...Thor and maybe 2-3 others. Using different cultivars can help constrain disease outbreak in case one of your varieties is susceptible.



jessehurlburt said:


> I reseeded this area in the spring too, but as you can see, crabgrass took over most of this section and overall this was unsucessful. Full sun, tons of crabgrass.


Do you know what went wrong? No PreM? Did the grass not survive the heat?



jessehurlburt said:


> I've seen some photos here of people with hoses with multiple impact sprinklers attached. Any links or suggestions?


I suppose that there is a lot of room for debate here, but personally, I think impacts are the way to go for putting down high amounts of water on an established lawn. I would recommend getting impacts that have a well-defined base that will keep them stable. I would avoid impacts that stick in the ground. I don't have a brand suggestion, though I do find Gilmour's pattern master to be useful. 
That being said, I would not use impacts for a reno because of the force generated by the sprinklers. For a reno, you want something with a lighter touch. I'm not sure about impacts for an overseed...



jessehurlburt said:


> Lastly, I know there are several types of pre-em for crabgrass control. What is recommended given I will be resseding in September?


If you follow the application rates closely, you can use Scott's starter fert with mesotrione (tenacity) (I believe it is called Scott's starter food for new grass plus weed preventer) on the day that you overseed. If you don't want to go with Scott's, I'm pretty sure that you can buy granular mesotrione by itself, though it has been a while since I looked into this. But the takeaway here is that mesotrione is a really good choice for a Pre-M when you overseed.

Also, you will want to have the weeds eliminated by your seeding date. Most post emergents that you buy in big box stores have a 30 day window for reseeding.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Yeah, I did not use any preM last year since I was seeding all year and had yet to learn about Tenacity. Is a fall PreM suggested while overseeding? I was under the impression that if you use a PreM in the spring and keep the weeds down for the season you can seed in the fall without one- am I mistaken? Is it more for Poa and other weed grasses aside from crabgrass? Would crabgrass germinate in Sept?

I saw Ware posted in the irrigation thread about these two being used together, but I can't visualize how that sprinkler connects to the base? What is wrong with the kind that stick in the ground, do they move around or something?

The areas that are the thinnest I will coat with Peat and hand water most likely until established.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Orbit-5-000-sq-ft-Rotating-Spike-Lawn-Sprinkler/3678506
https://www.amazon.com/Orbit-2-Inch-Metal-Sprinkler-58030/dp/B00004S24U/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1491856824&sr=8-5&keywords=orbit+sprinkler+base

Thanks for your thoughts Social..


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> I was under the impression that if you use a PreM in the spring and keep the weeds down for the season you can seed in the fall without one- am I mistaken


I'm not sure about this. I suppose that if weed pressure is low, then that plan would make sense. But why risk it?



jessehurlburt said:


> Is a fall PreM suggested while overseeding?


 Mesotrione is one of the few that you can use at seeding and yes, I would recommend it on the day that you overseed.


jessehurlburt said:


> Would crabgrass germinate in Sept?


I don't know. I believe that crabgrass can continue to germinate into late summer. Mesotrione can control several pests, including crabgrass, goosegrass, and yellow nutsedge. It is not limited to crabgrass.



jessehurlburt said:


> I saw Ware posted in the irrigation thread about these two being used together, but I can't visualize how that sprinkler connects to the base?


That sprinkler goes straight into the ground. And it works very well. It is also not an impact sprinkler. In my opinion, that is an excellent option for seeding. I used about 8 of those in my reno.


jessehurlburt said:


> What is wrong with the kind that stick in the ground, do they move around or something?


It's a soft recommendation based on personal experience. Anytime that I have used impacts that stick in the ground, I find that they are not stable and move around. When you are playing a precision game (and that's usually what you have to do when trying to cover all areas of the lawn), having even slight movement from the sprinklers is counterproductive and frustrating. I'm sure that some spiked impacts are better than others--I just haven't found the better ones.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Thanks for the help with the types of sprinklers. I was thinking an impact sprinkler was "the kind you stick in the ground". Lol. I see how these are different. I have an impact sprinkler but this was what I was looking for.

For seeding areas and general watering 2-3 of these in a row would make it so much easier.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Jesse:

Your ph is 6.4. Their lime recommendation is just to get you to 6.6. A ph between 6-6.9 is fine for a lawn and you don't really need to do anything.

I don't recommend impact sprinklers. They take forever to get 1in, noisy and very uneven. The one you listed from lowes is a good option. Another option is to use a spike and mount an irrigation head and nozzle, but you do have to deal with the hoses. Ryan explains it in this youtube video. An oscillating sprinkler is another good option that could make a rectangular pattern.

Spring PreM: two main options, but check what you could buy at your state. Prodiamine (Barricade) and Dithiopyr (Dimension). You apply them in early spring to prevent crabgrass (and other weeds) that germinate starting in May. The rate is chosen to allow it to wear off around late July. This will then allow you to grow from seed in August.

When overseeding, the existing lawn helps prevent weeds from growing (very different than a reno with bare soil). In my opinion you do not need Tenacity in an overseed. Under careful use, it could help, but it could also affect any fine fescues within your lawn if you use too much.

Fall PreM: a fall prem helps avoiding Poa A and other winter weeds. It is applied around August (when the spring one is wearing off). In an overseed or reno, you cant do it that year. It is not a big deal if you miss it. Most lawns never apply a Fall PreM. You only see the preventive bags at big box stores in spring.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

g-man said:


> Jesse:
> Your ph is 6.4. Their lime recommendation is just to get you to 6.6. A ph between 6-6.9 is fine for a lawn and you don't really need to do anything.


That's the buffer PH, gman- the soil ph is 4.8.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Oops! Yes, you need calcium.

https://www.pennington.com/all-products/lawn-garden/fertilizer/soil-ammendment/pennington-fast-acting-lime


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> One question I have is on the limestone recommendation. Since i have low PH along with low levels of calcium and magnesium I want dolomitic limestone, right? I cannot seem to find that at the big box stores, is there a common brand I should look for? What about Jonathan Green's Mag-i-cal product for raising soil PH, has anyone used that product? Also, I have Azaleas and Rhododendrons in the backyard. Do I just take care not to lime right up to them since they like the acidic soil?


You're going to need to check the guaranteed analysis label on the bag.
In most states to be classified as calcitic lime, the product must contain less than 5% magnesium carbonate (MgCO3). Conversely, if the product contains > 5% MgCO3, it is classified as dolomitic. Content/purity will vary from product to product depending on the mining source of the lime. Most dolomitic limes will contain around 50% CaCO3 and 40% MgCO3. 
When adjusting for Ca and Mg levels in addition to pH, the actual amount of elemental Ca and Mg is important. The guaranteed analysis label will also list those quantities. Most dolomitic limestone will contain a Ca:Mg ratio of about 2:1 and a % bag content of around 20% Ca and 10% Mg. Check the bag. A 40# bag that contains 20% Ca and 10% Mg will contain 8# of Ca and 4# of Mg. So, if you apply 25#/M you will be applying 5# of Ca/M and 2.5# of Mg/M. So, how will that affect your numbers that are currently 918# of Ca per acre and 84# of Mg per acre? Multiply 5# Ca and 2.5# Mg by 43.5 (to convert from per thousand square feet to acres) 5 X 43.5=217.5# and Ca and 2.5X 43.5= 108.75# of Mg. In an ideal world, that should increase the soil values to 1135.5# Ca/acre and 192.75# of Mg/acre. You can adjust the amount of Mg you add by mix and matching adding a calcitic lime (lower Mg content) with dolomitic lime (Are you that crazy?). It's also good to keep Ca: to Mg and Mg to K ratios in the back of your mind so that you don't get way out of whack with those (Really not usually a big concern). Ratios are determined on the basis of Base Saturation percentages. (UCONN suggests anywhere from 5:1 to 4:3 Ca:Mg for Conn soils). *The most IMPORTANT thing is to adjust your pH as that has a major influence on plant performance-for you, that means 25# of lime, period.* Let pH adjustment be your primary guide, not Ca:Mg or Mg:K ratios.
Lastly, to see where you currently are and where you will be after liming as far as recommended values you can use the chart listed under Modified Morgan in my thread, just divide Ca, Mg and K pound values by two to convert to ppm, then compare.
Sorry for rambling.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> > One question I have is on the limestone recommendation. Since i have low PH along with low levels of calcium and magnesium I want dolomitic limestone, right? I cannot seem to find that at the big box stores, is there a common brand I should look for? What about Jonathan Green's Mag-i-cal product for raising soil PH, has anyone used that product? Also, I have Azaleas and Rhododendrons in the backyard. Do I just take care not to lime right up to them since they like the acidic soil?
> 
> 
> You're going to need to check the guaranteed analysis label on the bag.
> ...


I love your detail- you obviously have spent a lot of time studying this topic. I have to admit most of that went over my head but I will keep coming back to your comment to try to digest it. Is there anything wrong with me just applying the 25#/M of dolomite lime since I need both Ca and Mg and the PH boost and see where I am come spring? Another question around lime- I am confused around the fast acting vs the standard lime. When a product says "use this instead of 5 bags of lime" is it just more concentrated? If I use fast acting do I still use 25#/M? I'd like to use a fast acting lime in the spring to get a quick PH boost and help with the fall overseed and then maybe another app of standard "slow acting" lime in the fall for more long term PH maintenance?

I am also curious about a Gypsum application. My soil is compacted in a lot of areas and while I core aerate in the fall, if there is a way to help to soil loosen itself with Gypsum I would be interested in hearing suggestions around that. I was looking at the Jonathan Green Love Your Soil product, but it is quite expensive.

I really appreciate all the help!

Jesse


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

First, here's an example of a guaranteed analysis:
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/www.agrian.com/pdfs/Pro-Pell-It_Pelletized_Dolomite_Label.pdf


> Is there anything wrong with me just applying the 25#/M of dolomite lime since I need both Ca and Mg and the PH boost and see where I am come spring?


IMO, No, However, the reason for all the proceeding verbiage was to enable you to make that determination.  


> Another question around lime- I am confused around the fast acting vs the standard lime. When a product says "use this instead of 5 bags of lime" is it just more concentrated? If I use fast acting do I still use 25#/M?


Fast acting limes contain a greater percentage of 100 mesh or smaller particles of lime. The finer that limestone is ground, the more surface area that is available for contact with water and the soil and the faster it will dissolve and interact. Acidity is due to the presence of hydrogen, It's the quantity of carbonate in the lime that neutralizes the hydrogen. No mater what, it's going to take X amount of carbonate to neutralize X amount of hydrogen. Smaller particles of lime will allow more carbonate to be available quicker, however, that will also make the upper level of soil quickly very alkaline which will make many nutrients less available to the plant (example: chlorosis due to insufficient iron). To avoid this, it is recommended that fast acting lime applications be divided and spaced out over time. Studies show that application of the same amount of 60 mesh and 100 mesh lime both take between 1-2 years to change pH the same amount to a depth of 4-6" (that timeline is of course, going to be dependent on soil structure-sand vs clay), but it still takes the same amount of lime (carbonate) to get to the desired pH. On a typical loam or heavier soil, it's 6 of one vs half a dozen of the other as percolation rate is going to be a major factor in pH change throughout the root zone. On a sandy soil, there might be an advantage to using a fast acting lime. That make any sense?


> I am also curious about a Gypsum application. My soil is compacted in a lot of areas and while I core aerate in the fall, if there is a way to help to soil loosen itself with Gypsum I would be interested in hearing suggestions around that.


Good, well aerated "soft" soil is a result of good soil structure. Good soil structure is dependent on a number of factors that create particle aggregates (OM, roots, worms, water, air, etc.). Agronomists have found that high soil Mg levels can contribute to "tight/hard/compacted" soil as Mg disperses soil particles when wet and tightly binds (primarily clay) particles to one another when dry. (Mg threshold that may be of concern: >300ppm, >20% base saturation, and Ca:Mg ratios less than 4:1.) Gypsum is CaSO4. Gypsum will add Ca to the soil without changing soil pH. The additional Ca displaces the Mg and the Mg leaches out and gypsum is sometimes recommended for that purpose. Replacing the Mg with Ca allows the soil particles to be less tightly bound. Calcitic lime also adds Ca, dolomitic lime adds Ca and Mg and both also lower pH. You have a desire to raise Ca and Mg and to lower pH. At the risk of sounding like an a'hole, it's your choice, should you use gypsum in an effort to reduce soil "hardness/compaction"?


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## cclaeys (Dec 2, 2017)

Compost is very effective when trying to get the soil healthy, lots of it, I just buy the cheap stuff at the dump, they dont add anything but water - the poop stuff is too "hot" - aerate and top dress about an inch, then do it again and again, takes time. I wouldnt even worry about seeding until the dirt is good. I am kind of an extremist with lots of time and free labor, but I like to top dress with fine wood chips that have composted down a season, 4" turns into nothing, let the soil figure it out, works in forests.

I use tons of gypsum, but not for calcium specifically other than the fact that it is very beneficial to sodic soils, which slc is exactly that. The post above contadicts what I am going to say, but it is ultimately acidic - how can it not be with 20% sulfur, if only temporarily, a chracteristic that you dont need any more of.

Nature is very efficient, emulate the ways of the plants and you will create an environment they like.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> The post above contadicts what I am going to say, but it is ultimately acidic - how can it not be with 20% sulfur, if only temporarily, a chracteristic that you dont need any more of.


That would seem to be the likely case, but it's not, due to the different form in which the Sulfur is delivered. Elemental Sulfur (S), through the intervention of soil microbiology, can acidify soil. The 20% S content in gypsum is in the form of sulfate (SO4) and sulfate will not effectively change soil pH. Kind of like inhaling Oxygen can be beneficial. Inhaling Oxygen in the form of H2O, not so much.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> Fast acting limes contain a greater percentage of 100 mesh or smaller particles of lime. The finer that limestone is ground, the more surface area that is available for contact with water and the soil and the faster it will dissolve and interact. Acidity is due to the presence of hydrogen, It's the quantity of carbonate in the lime that neutralizes the hydrogen. No mater what, it's going to take X amount of carbonate to neutralize X amount of hydrogen. Smaller particles of lime will allow more carbonate to be available quicker, however, that will also make the upper level of soil quickly very alkaline which will make many nutrients less available to the plant (example: chlorosis due to insufficient iron). To avoid this, it is recommended that fast acting lime applications be divided and spaced out over time. Studies show that application of the same amount of 60 mesh and 100 mesh lime both take between 1-2 years to change pH the same amount to a depth of 4-6" (that timeline is of course, going to be dependent on soil structure-sand vs clay), but it still takes the same amount of lime (carbonate) to get to the desired pH. On a typical loam or heavier soil, it's 6 of one vs half a dozen of the other as percolation rate is going to be a major factor in pH change throughout the root zone. On a sandy soil, there might be an advantage to using a fast acting lime. That make any sense?


This make perfect sense, thank you!

I am confused looking at the Guaranteed Analysis though- why don't the percentages add up to 100%? 

Guaranteed Analysis:
Calcium (Ca).........................................................19.95%
Magnesium (Mg)................................................10.35%
Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) ..........................49.82%
Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) .................42.60%
Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CCE)..........98.27%


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> I am confused looking at the Guaranteed Analysis though- why don't the percentages add up to 100%?
> 
> Guaranteed Analysis:
> Calcium (Ca).........................................................19.95%
> ...


That question may be a little more complicated than it might appear.
Which %s are you expecting to add up to 100%?
With any product, the manufacturer will (and is usually required to list major components) and any % (which doesn't meet a required % threshold) that isn't analyzed is listed usually as "other" or "filler" or some other generic catch-all term. If the analysis does not label the shortage, the consumer is left to assume that the missing % is some substance other than what has been identified.
In the example at hand, the important package contents are CaCO3 (49.82%) and MgCO3 (42.60%) totaling 92.42% of the package or 46.21 lbs of a 50lb bag or lime. All we know is the other 7.58% or 3.79 lbs is something other than CaCO3 or MgCO3. With limestone, that isn't unusual. The limestone rock deposits found in nature are rarely if ever pure. That unknown 7.82% are naturally occurring impurities and contaminates. Even snow isn't "as pure as the driven snow" as there is always a piece of dirt at the center of every ice crystal/snow flake.
The CCE is a rating system based on a theoretically 100% pure CaCO3 limestone. In this case, the lime content of the 50# bag is 98.27% as potent at neutralizing acidity as a 50# bag containing 100% pure calcium carbonate.
So why does the % of CaCO3 (49.82%) and MgCO3 (42.60%) totaling 92.42% not equal the CCE of 98.27???
Because a MgCO3 molecule weighs less than a molecule of CaCO3, but still has the some neutralizing effect (CO3) as the CaCO3 molecule. Therefor, as one pound of MgCO3 will contain more CO3 molecules than one pound of CaCO3, one pound of MgCO3 will have a greater CCE value than one pound of CaCO3. Hence, due to the MgCO3 content, that bag has a CCE of 98.27% rather than a CCE of 92.42%. 
The % Ca and Mg listed are just based on molecular weight calculations.
TMI?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I am still missing something- I probably should have paid better better attention in middle school chemistry class instead of passing notes to girls. :|

The 20% calcium must make up a portion of the CaCO3 percentage?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Yes
Atomic weight (rounded off, so our final calculations are going to be off by a couple of hundredths):
Ca = 40
C = 12
O = 16
Therefore: CaCO3 = 40 + 12 + 16 + 16 + 16 or 100
%Ca (by weight) in CaCO3 = 40/100 = .40 or 40% of CaCO3 is Ca by weight.
Say you have a 50# bag containing 49.8% CaCO3
49.8% of 50# bag = 24.9# of CaCO3
That 24.9# of CaCO3 is 40% Ca
40% of 24.9 = 9.96# of Ca in that 50# bag
9.964# of Ca/50# bag = 19.92% (19.92% of the 50# bag is Ca by weight.)


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

So trying to think through my order of operations for next spring- any comments or suggestions

-Dolomite Lime Early Spring (fast acting) 12#/M
-Dimension app when the forsythia blooms 13-0-5
-Kill off any remaining clover and broadleaf weeds
-Milo app in May and July
-Figure out an above ground irrigation system- I like Ryan Knorr's above ground set up
Hunter Pro Spray Base: http://amzn.to/2nkF9uM
MP3000 Sprinkler Head (22-30ft): http://amzn.to/2mNHIBy
MP2000 Sprinkler Head (13-21ft): http://amzn.to/2nHFloW
MP1000 Sprinkler Head (8-15ft): http://amzn.to/2nkIZUy
½" Sprinkler Riser: http://amzn.to/2nPRzsl
½" Sprinkler Spike: http://amzn.to/2nkCXmP (these things are really $20 a piece?!)

Here is a video where he shows it- *https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEN0d6efQJs*

-Level off the old garden (no idea how much topsoil I will need, the old garden was maybe 10-20' with some ruts maybe 8 inches lower than the surrounding area- I'll try to snap a few pics)
-Should I plan on leveling this area and leaving it bare for a few weeks to settle nicely before seeding in the fall? I will tamp it as best I can, but I really want to make sure it doesn't settle after seeding. Spot treatments of roundup for any weeds here a few days before l seed?
-Maybe roundup the quackgrass area- undecided here- maybe next year.. :| 
-Labor day aerate, overseed TTTF (Thor and a few other TTTF), milo, starter fert, peat for the very thin areas and garden section 
-water, water, water
-another round of regular dolomite limestone (not fast acting) 12#/M in early Oct
-Fall Urea apps when growth slows


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## FlyMike (Aug 27, 2017)

I'll let the more experienced folks respond to your plan, but in regards to the sprinkler spike you can definitely find them cheaper than $20.
This place sells them for $1.55 each https://goo.gl/G2vBxZ (I have no idea what shipping costs). I went to Walmart and found some spiked impact sprinklers for $2.50 and just took the impact part off and used the spike.
I have a few spikes that flare out at the top like this https://goo.gl/rCoQmn, and I prefer them over the regular spike. The stay in place better because of the flared out top and don't twist around over time like some of my regular spikes do.
Also, I bough my risers for under $1 at my local Home Depot. I'm sure you can find them a lot cheaper locally than the $5 amazon is charging.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Thanks for the spike and riser recommendations, Mike!

One dimension app in late march/April if I am overseeding in late August? I should be good by then, right?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Check the label of the product. I think it is 16 weeks from application.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

A single roundup application is unlikely to kill quackgrass. It is a particularly invasive and hardy weed that will require multiple applications of Glyphosate (roundup). There are very few options for selective control in cool season grass and most of those are either no longer labeled for cool season turf, are only available to professionals or both.

If you are using a pre-emergent in the spring, pay close attention to the label and when you can seed after application. More than one person has had a failed overseeding/renovation from residual pre-emergent in the soil. Prodiamine, for example can be applied at rates that will give anywhere from 3-9 months of protection from a single application in cool season turf. Dimension has a shorter soil half life and is generally a safer pre-emergent if you are planning a fall seeding, though Prodiamine can be safe if dosed at the right level.

As far as what to seed with, I am a firm believer that uniformity is the most important factor in how a lawn will look. My general recommendation would be to use a blend of 3+ cultivars from the same species. In your case, that would be 3+ Tall Fescue cultivars. You want to choose cultivars that have similar color and texture numbers in the NTEP that do well in your area and are resistant to any diseases that you know show up in your lawn.

Improving the soil will generally mean adding organic matter. That include leaves, compost, peat moss, etc. Looking at your soil test your CEC is only 3.9 which suggests a sandy soil which is at odds with your jar test interpretation. If you provide the 2 min, 2 hour and 2 day pictures, that will help others figure out what your soil type is. My guess would be a high sand content (~70%) with the remainder silt. I can't really tell from a single time point, though. It is worth figuring out since if you do have a sandy soil (rather than a clay loam), it will change how you manage the lawn.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Hi Neighbor!

Regarding TTTF cultivars: there are lots of good ones. I'm not familiar with "Thor" specifically and I'll have to research it, but I personally have used the following:
Bullseye, 
Firecracker LS, 
Firecracker SLS, 
Titanium 2LS,
Flame (No-Net),
Summer

The two I'm most familiar with are Firecracker LS and Bullseye, because I've been using them since 2012. I've added the others to some areas in subsequent years during overseeding.

Flame and Summer and Jacklin products, while the Firecrackers and Titaniums are Mountainview. I forget who makes Bullseye. My experience is that those Mountainview products and Bullseye, too, are top-notch. I haven't used the Jacklin cultivars long enough to be able to draw any conclusions.

There are others, too, that ranked well in our area. Feel free to mix and match a few cultivars.

By the way, the Craftsman mower (I have one, too) is most likely made by MTD. Mine appears to be a rebranded/modifiedTroy-Bilt, for example (one of MTD's OEM brands). They're actually pretty good mowers...durability isn't their strong point, though, at least on the newer ones like mine (2014 model).


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

As far as sprinklers, I've found the most durable and versatile stream-type sprinklers to be:
-Rainbird impact heads
-Hunter I20-00 gear-drive rotary (That's "I" as in "India", and "00" is the shrub model, which doesn't have to pop up like the in-ground models. You'll also need the adjustment tool as well to make settings.)
Either can easily be attached to a basic spike base.

I also like the Dramm Colorstorm oscillating sprinkler which I bought this past year. It's mostly metal, and costs about $40, but when you need an oscillator, it's the best.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

From your other post:



jessehurlburt said:


> I am planning an overseed restoration in the Fall of 2018 but lost a section (maybe 50-70 sq') to grubs this past year and want to fix that area in the spring. Along with the helpful info in this PDF that gman shared, I am wondering if I might be better off using 100% PRG for fast germination with the understanding I will be overseeding with TTTF in the fall. My thinking is just get a place holder there as quickly as possible to keep the weeds out until fall. Even if I loose the grass to heat in the late summer, I really dont care since I will fix in the fall, I really just want to keep mud off the dogs paws for the April-August time frame.. Obviously skip the Prodiamine in that area and use tenacity for the seeding..
> 
> Spring Seeding Tips: http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-20-W.pdf


Here's my opinion on that:

Ryegrass tends to be super competitive in terms of both its germination/maturation time, root growth, and its usage of water and fertilizer, and tends to also produce a lot of a chemical that inhibits weeds and other grasses from germinating (much moreso than Tall Fescue, for example). The net effect is it gets dense and tends to be tough to overseed into.

As someone who started with a PR/KBG seed mix in Fall of 2011 and then overseeded it with Tall Fescue and more KBG in Fall of 2012 less than a year later, I can tell you that it still took several overseeds over several years to get the mixture to be balanced in some areas. Not only that, but I had to mechanically create space by dethatching and/or aerating each time in order to do those overseeds.

I have not overseeded with any more PR seed on the main front lawn until this past Fall, at which time I used only about 5% (and maybe even less) by weight PR seed, and the was rest KBG and Tall Fescue. Any more than that little bit of PR seed, and I would be fighting a total imbalance for years to come. With the old PR and new PR I planted combined, the lawn will probably consist of 25% PR when all is said and done, which about is what I was shooting for (It adds a nice dark green color and shine).

I'd strongly suggest not starting with PR for the above reasons, but instead adding it in as the final step if you're interested in a mixed lawn. A mixed lawn provides a good, durable turf that's adaptable...but over time will tend to become patchy as each type of grass dominates key areas with differing conditions...unless you're absolutely meticulous about the upkeep. One way to do that is to continue to overseed with the weakest competitor every few years...which usually means the Fescue.

If you just want something temporary, you can do that...but you might have to kill it with glyphosate and/or put soil on top of it before planting again in the future.

By the way...regarding that Craftsman 21" mower...I have one, too. I just assumed it was total junk...but after getting it repaired recently, I learned that, while it's not the most durable mower out there, it has one of the better cut qualities and some features missing on other sub-$500 mowers. It turns out that it's made by MTD...the same company that makes Cub Cadet and Troy-Bilt mowers, among others. Mine appears to be a modified Troy-Bilt OEM design, built to Craftsmans's specs. Personally, on mine, the cut quality with the default mulching blade appears to be the best of any mower in my immediate neighborhood, except for a Cub Cadet Z-turn that appears to match, but not exceed, the cut quality. That includes various 21" walk behinds like Toro, Honda, other Craftmans, as well as various lawn tractors. That also includes a commercial Toro Z-turn from a hired LCO that does the neighbor...his mower's cut quality is terrible compared to mine, because his wheels flatten everything and make weird stripes due the weight of the thing. I find the absolute best cut quality on the Craftsman to be at the 3.25-in setting, or second-highest. The side-discharge port does blow leaves around if I'm not careful, even when it's covered by the mulch plug. The trick is to mow from a certain direction when mulching. I also thought the engine on mine was complete junk, but learned from a repair guy that it's actually one of the better ones (6.75 torque and 190cc Briggs). Finally, it's not the most durable mower...it's made pretty poorly from that point of view...but I try not to abuse it.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

bernstem said:


> Improving the soil will generally mean adding organic matter. That include leaves, compost, peat moss, etc. Looking at your soil test your CEC is only 3.9 which suggests a sandy soil which is at odds with your jar test interpretation. If you provide the 2 min, 2 hour and 2 day pictures, that will help others figure out what your soil type is. My guess would be a high sand content (~70%) with the remainder silt. I can't really tell from a single time point, though. It is worth figuring out since if you do have a sandy soil (rather than a clay loam), it will change how you manage the lawn.


This is very helpful. After taking another look at my pictures it appears I have a very thin layer of clay. I will try this test out again when the ground thaws.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Green said:


> From your other post:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Green, thanks for sharing your experience. Whereabouts are you in CT? Does the PRG you've seeded make it through winter without much loss?

My current line of thinking is to separate my lawn into the front and back. I have total control over the front in terms of no kids or pets running around playing there, so I am pondering a renovation there for the fall. My backyard is a much tougher problem as I have a VERY energetic lab and an equally energetic 5 year old that use the backyard a lot. I have big areas that were just weeds and clover this past year and my concern is using a pre-emregent will leave these areas bare and the backyard will end up a muddy mess. While I am not fond of crabgrass, anything that provides cover back there will work.  I know this won't be a idea that goes over well here, but I am thinking of seeding these areas with PRG in the spring. If the PRG makes it through the summer (and I feel like it will mostly make it through winter) awesome. if it dies in the late summer/ fall I will tear it out and seed TTTF. The big thing for me is my backyard can't be a a bunch of exposed dirt from April to September while I wait to seed.

I knew PRG germinated quickly, but your other comments are making it more appealing to me. I already have a mutt lawn back there, so I am not too concerned with differing appearance of the grasses.

I wonder what kind of PRG is most cold tolerant...?

Oh and thanks for the cultivar suggestions too!

Thanks Green


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I'm in South-Central CT (inland), Zone 6B. I see you're central as well, so our weather is almost the same. I have family on the coast, in Zone 7A. A lot of people argue it, but that tiny section of coastal CT is considered to be the beginning of the US transition zone by many standards.

I have had some loss of PR due to really cold and really hot weather. It's just one of those things that happens in the extremes. The loss was minor to moderate.

My advice is this: allocate part of your yard that you don't care as much about as your low-input area. I have a low-input area as well, which is almost half the yard, (actually, the same size as your entire yard according to your profile) all the way in the back. I manage it totally differently from everything else. It doesn't look that great most of the time. That's ok, though. It's impossible and impractical to be perfectionistic on the entire yard.

For the low-input area, you're going to have to decide if going more toward TF or PR is a better idea. Of course, there are other options, too. Irrigation is a big factor. PR hates even short-term lack of moisture. It's not great at recovering from dormancy. TF has a better drought tolerance, but is even worse at recovering after dormancy...it tends to die soon after. With both grasses, once they go totally brown from lack of water, you tend to lose a lot of it, even when the water returns. But TF stays green longer in those situations. I've recently had to add TTTF to some parts of the low-input area where everything else tend to die out due to lack of water in the Summer.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

What are considered the most low-input, toughest (in terms of foot and paw traffic) cool season grass?


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Tough wearing actually means fast repairing, and that requires nutrient input if you want it to hold up (somewhat) to abuse from kids and dogs.

Kentucky Bluegrass is the most used grass for sports fields in cool-season regions, and it is also the most nitrogen hungry of the bunch.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> What are considered the most low-input, toughest (in terms of foot and paw traffic) cool season grass?


The Fescues are the most low-input of the cool-season grasses, as they can tolerate lower fertility than KBG or PR. Tall Fescue can be managed as high-input, but it doesn't have to be. Fine Fescue actually won't tolerate high Nitrogen levels well, as it grows slower than other grass types. 1-2 lbs/M of N per year would be sufficient for a low-input Fescue lawn, provided it's mature. In the first year or two though, all grasses need sufficient watering and fertilizer.

Traffic tolerance probably won't be very good the first year or two with any lawn type.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

bernstem said:


> Improving the soil will generally mean adding organic matter. That include leaves, compost, peat moss, etc. Looking at your soil test your CEC is only 3.9 which suggests a sandy soil which is at odds with your jar test interpretation. If you provide the 2 min, 2 hour and 2 day pictures, that will help others figure out what your soil type is. My guess would be a high sand content (~70%) with the remainder silt. I can't really tell from a single time point, though. It is worth figuring out since if you do have a sandy soil (rather than a clay loam), it will change how you manage the lawn.


Circling back to this one. The ground isn't yet thawed enough to get down 3-4", but I will retest when I am able. Looking at my pics again, it looks like I have a small percentage of clay and the rest is sand and silt. Wouldn't a mostly sandy soil drain very well and quickly though? I have areas that drain poorly my backyard.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Poor drainage does not necessarily equal clay in the topsoil. For example, sand with fine silt can drain poorly by itself. If Mg levels are high or the soil is mechanically compacted that can contribute. There may be a subsoil that is high in clay. You may have areas of your lawn with a different soil composition.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

bernstem said:


> Poor drainage does not necessarily equal clay in the topsoil. For example, sand with fine silt can drain poorly by itself. If Mg levels are high or the soil is mechanically compacted that can contribute. There may be a subsoil that is high in clay. You may have areas of your lawn with a different soil composition.


I think the previous owners fixed up cars in the backyard where it is the worst. I have core aerated the last two years- last year adding leaf compost after aerating and it still drains poor. Nor sure else how to address this. When I core aerate I get lousy plugs from this area too- maybe only an inch long.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> I think the previous owners fixed up cars in the backyard where it is the worst. I have core aerated the last two years- last year adding leaf compost after aerating and it still drains poor. Nor sure else how to address this. When I core aerate I get lousy plugs from this area too- maybe only an inch long.


Pulling inch long plugs is doing next to nothing for the soil or turf. That isn't aerating. You need to be pulling at least 2-3+" cores. Poor soil needs to be prepared (softened) prior to aeration. I water mine the night before aeration. Water acts like a lubricant and will soften the soil allowing for penetration. If you can't shove a large screwdriver down 4-5" with only 30-40 lbs of force, water more or add a surfactant (cheap shampoo w/o any conditioners will do) to help. Don't waste your time until you can get the screwdriver to penetrate to depth. Also make enough passes to make 18-20 cores per square foot.
Ten years ago my situation was similar to yours, my soil was hard as rock (still is pretty hard) with poor water absorption, CEC was 9, 50/50 Sand/Silt, and about 3% OM, but I was able to get a great stand of KBG to establish and thrive in it.
As an option for you to consider and, of course, ymmv, I core aerated, then filled the holes with peat moss. I was able to do the whole yard in a day, but I had an aerator, a tractor, a pull cart and a drag and I was 10 years younger and it was only about 7000 sq feet. Even then, it is pretty hard work. 
I've used that same technique a number of times since that initial process. Anytime, I notice an area that starts to look like it's thinning or shows signs of drought stress before the rest of the lawn, I cut short, water well, then the next day I aerate and spread peat moss over that area. I've gotten older, so I don't do more than 100 sq feet at a time. I usually don't even get the power aerator out. I use "the original aerator", a spade fork. Drive the spade fork down 5-6", pull back on the handle enough to just heave the soil ever so slightly, move 4-5" and repeat until the area is done. Then I spread 1/2 of a 3.8 cu. ft bag of peat moss and work it into the holes with the back of a garden rake. Add more peat moss and spread until holes are full. Water well. The next day I work in more peat moss if the holes aren't full. Water well and treat it like the rest of the lawn.
Due to circumstances out of my control, I haven't done this for the last 3 years and there are now areas that really show poorly for it. You could try it on 100 square feet and see if it works for you on one of the real problem spots. Spade forks are $20 and a bale of peat moss is $12-15.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

+1

I like to mix peat moss with compost.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> I usually don't even get the power aerator out. I use "the original aerator", a spade fork. Drive the spade fork down 5-6", pull back on the handle enough to just heave the soil ever so slightly, move 4-5" and repeat until the area is done. Then I spread 1/2 of a 3.8 cu. ft bag of peat moss and work it into the holes with the back of a garden rake. Add more peat moss and spread until holes are full. Water well. The next day I work in more peat moss if the holes aren't full. Water well and treat it like the rest of the lawn.


I've been eyeing the manual core aerators to try a strategy like this. I am out in the yard with my son and dog so much in the spring/summer /fall I could work on small areas at a time. I am surprised to see the recommendation of a spade over a core aerator. It seems like the spade would poke holes but also while further compacting the surrounding soil. I guess the strategy is simply, get something other than sand and silt down in the ground to help with absorption/soil structure?

My town has a leaf composting program and a mountain of very well composted leaf compost free for the taking. I am eyeing this compost screener to take some of the sticks and debris out. https://tinyurl.com/ya7dkh2z
I will take your and gman's suggestion and mix peat moss with it as I work on the soil.

The snow has been melting this week and we have 50-60 days in the forecast! A site one visit is in order for my pre-m and lime. Cannot wait for warmer days in the yard!!

Thanks guys!


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> I am surprised to see the recommendation of a spade over a core aerator. It seems like the spade would poke holes but also while further compacting the surrounding soil. I guess the strategy is simply, get something other than sand and silt down in the ground to help with absorption/soil structure?


You will only want to apply the bare minimum amount of water needed for the screw driver or aerator tine to reach depth, but where the plug will fall apart under gentile poking. Finding this balance will take some experimentation, trial and error. You may need to wait 2 or three days after watering for the soil to reach the necessary moisture content. Too much moisture would certainly be counter productive and could promote some further compaction.
Power or manual aerators will only core down 3-3 1/2" which is good for reducing compaction in the root zone for most turf grasses, but as you surmised, the primary objective here isn't aeration as it is to improve the soil and reduce the effects of compaction through amendment. The advantage of using a spade fork is that (by pulling back slightly after reaching depth) it creates an oblong hole opening like a funnel that makes working the peat moss into the hole much easier as well as deeper into the soil for better wicking. In addition, the spade fork does have a compaction alleviation component. The ability to reach 5-6" depth helps break up any hard-pan that might exist. Also the slight pulling back once it is at depth will heave the soil in front of the fork, creating fractures in the soil. Finally the ability to reach deeper into the soil may reveal some surprises (it did for me) like rocks, construction debris or a buried cement pad.
I used and recommended peat moss for a couple of reasons. Unlike other products, like most composts, it is a homogeneous material. When bone dry, as it should be if the supplier stored it inside, it's almost powder like which makes it easy to spread and work into the holes. It resists compaction (it "springs" back to its original volume as moisture content reduces and the compacting force is removed- compost does not have that characteristic). Although hydrophobic, once wet it holds a large amount of moisture. It's an extremely stable OM, it will remain in the soil for a number of years. sphagnum can possess a CEC of 100-200 meq and creates both a low resistance medium for root growth and a nutrient sink.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> > I am surprised to see the recommendation of a spade over a core aerator. It seems like the spade would poke holes but also while further compacting the surrounding soil. I guess the strategy is simply, get something other than sand and silt down in the ground to help with absorption/soil structure?
> 
> 
> You will only want to apply the bare minimum amount of water needed for the screw driver or aerator tine to reach depth, but where the plug will fall apart under gentile poking. Finding this balance will take some experimentation, trial and error. You may need to wait 2 or three days after watering for the soil to reach the necessary moisture content. Too much moisture would certainly be counter productive and could promote some further compaction.
> ...


Another amazingly detailed reply. I really appreciate your time and sharing your experiences. I'm going to grab a spade fork and some peat moss and get to work soon.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Do keep in mind that that is still only my experience and my opinion. If you end up preferring using the hand aerator (and/or compost), it'll do. A spade fork is always a good tool to have in the shed though.  
Whatever you end up doing, please post with the progress.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ran over to HD on my lunch break and grabbed a spade fork and a bag of peat. Now I just need the ground to thaw.. :|


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I had this link in my organic bookmark folder. I think it is the best explanation on why use both peat moss and compost. It is geared toward gardening, but it should apply to lawns too.

https://pss.uvm.edu/ppp/articles/peatcom.html


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

That is very concise, helpful information g-man. Since I have access to all the compost I want, I will definitely be incorporating it into the peat. Sounds like they complement each other very well!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Here is a photo showing a poor draining section. Temps have been above freezing for a few days, but the ground is still a bit frozen. That said, this area pools up during the summer. I wonder if there was a pool here at some point, since it almost makes a perfect circle when there's a lot of water there. Clover dominates this area in the summer. I wonder if this can be addressed with getting some peat and compost down into the ground here, or if this is a case of leveling that section off better to remove the low spot. You can see what is left of the old garden behind the playscape as well. 









Also, here is another area need the edge of the property where i get pools of water. I'd like to amend this area and plant gras here. This doesn't look like sandy soil though, would you assume this area is high in silt content based on the look of it? I will do mason jar tests in separate areas when it warms up a bit to better understand my soil in problem areas. 









Let me know what you guys think about these spots.

Jesse


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I have an area that behaves similarly. There has been water/ice there for a few weeks now. I'm still trying to figure out what's causing it and what might help speed up drainage.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

My knowledge of topics like soil composition and leveling is still very much a work in progress. But, for what it's worth, I've read time-and-again that things like peat moss and compost should be applied to your entire turf area, not in isolated spots. The idea is to make your soil as uniform as possible. Adding non-native dirt, compost, peat etc to only one area will make that one area differ from the rest of your lawn. 
This is to say that I think leveling is the better of the two options.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

You can certainly add organic matter to problem areas only and it will likely help them. A couple things to look into for poorly draining areas are a subsoil that pools water above it, compaction and poor soil chemistry. One simple test is a scredriver test. If you can't push a large (~9 inch) screwdriver into the soil to the handle without much effort, you have a tight soil. It will also give you a feel for whether there is a soil horizon. If the screwdriver goes in 2-3 inches and suddenly feels like it is hitting a wall, it suggest a soil layer. You can also take a soil core (or dig a hole) down to 12-18 inches to see if there is a soil horizon causing problems.

Addition of organic matter and chemical aeration are two easy treatments for poorly draining soil that will help almost any soil. I would start with those. Other possible solutions are to regrade the lawn to allow better drainage of that area. It looks like you could cut a drainage swale back towards the fence. It kind of looks like there may have been one once, so maybe someone filled it in in the past. If there is something buried in that area, that would also cause problems. Old septic tanks, pools, etc. are often just covered over. The only way to figure that out is with digging.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

It hit 70 degrees in CT today which is pretty rare for February. On my lunch break I ran home and grabbed the spade fork and peat moss and worked on a section about 500sq/f where the water was pooling the most. The 6-7' spade fork sunk down all the way without much effort. It was still very damp. I top dressed with peat (cant get at the leaf compost for a few more weeks) and raked it in. It was so nice to be outside working on the lawn and working up a sweat. I may have snuck in a beer while I was working.


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## thytuff1 (Feb 13, 2018)

Peat moss should not be used as a soil amendment if the purpose is to improve internal drainage. It will hold water and keep it in the profile. That is one of the reasons it is used in construction of USGA sand based greens so that the growing medium can hold onto additional water for the grass roots. In order to improve soil sub surface drainage a drain has to be installed. Generally conventional and deep tine ( 10 - 12")aericication will alleviate the problem in the short run and should be repeated at least annually. Adding compost to the soil profile over the long term may also help internal drainage by feeding the soil micro fuana which overtime improves soil structure and inherently the drainage characteristics of a soil.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

thytuff1 said:


> Peat moss should not be used as a soil amendment if the purpose is to improve internal drainage. It will hold water and keep it in the profile. That is one of the reasons it is used in construction of USGA sand based greens so that the growing medium can hold onto additional water for the grass roots. In order to improve soil sub surface drainage a drain has to be installed. Generally conventional and deep tine ( 10 - 12")aericication will alleviate the problem in the short run and should be repeated at least annually. Adding compost to the soil profile over the long term may also help internal drainage by feeding the soil micro fuana which overtime improves soil structure and inherently the drainage characteristics of a soil.


Hey, thytuff1...

I was reading an article by Nick Christians last week about how you guys topdress the golf greens. Anyway, he mentioned that the two errors in topdressing tend to be people quitting once they start, and people using too fine a grade of material that doesn't match the original soil, which then plugs up the soil and impedes drainage. That basically sounds like what you're saying.

So, I immediately got concerned after reading that, because it's been beaten into my head the past few years that topdressing a lawn with compost is a good thing (which you mentioned, too). Now, I'm just confused. Wouldn't compost or peat moss tend to plug up the drainage and cause ponding?


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## thytuff1 (Feb 13, 2018)

@Green I am sorry that the last post confused you. But to answer your question, if you stick to sensible amounts of compost as a soil amendment you will be fine. Compost breaks down relatively quickly in the environment especially when soil temps and moisture are adequate. Compost does not necessarily hold on to water either, it more serves as carbon source. It should not plug up internal drainage properties of a particular soil. However, too much of something can cause problems so if one to continuously incorporate significant amounts of compost the % organic matter will cause problems. In bentgrass and poa annua golf greens we tend to keep our organic matter percentage between 2 -3%; in a home lawn situation it can be higher somewhere between 4-6%.

Peat has a great natural water holding capacity and does will persist in the soil profile for a very long time. It will bring up the water holding capacity of a soil and inhibit efficient drainage. Again it is mostly used as an amendment in sandy soils to bolster water holding capacity. It should never be used in an already poor drainage situation as it will further inhibit subsurface drainage.

Hope this helps.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

thytuff1 said:


> @Green I am sorry that the last post confused you. But to answer your question, if you stick to sensible amounts of compost as a soil amendment you will be fine...
> 
> Peat has a great natural water holding capacity and does will persist in the soil profile for a very long time. It will bring up the water holding capacity of a soil and inhibit efficient drainage. Again it is mostly used as an amendment in sandy soils to bolster water holding capacity. It should never be used in an already poor drainage situation as it will further inhibit subsurface drainage.


Thank you for explaining. I do want to ask a follow-up question or two. (And hopefully these are helping not just me, but also the OP as well as others.)

If you have a sandy loam soil with a TEC of around 7-8, and you apply a thin coating (just enough to topdress seed) of peat moss once a year when overseeding, will that peat moss tend to eventually make its way deeper into the soil and benefit it? Or will it tend to create a soil horizon and prevent water, nutrients, or possibly even roots from going into deeper soil layers? Can too much peat moss all at once (more than used in overseeding) cause runoff or even prevent gas exchange?

Second question: If you have an area that naturally, due to the soil, has poor drainage in a home lawn, what's the best course of action? I would think the first step would be to do a percolation test and also a jar test for soil structure. In my case, I was told there used to be a pond in the area. In Jesse's case, we don't know what the cause is. After doing the tests above, what else should be evaluated, and are there things to be done that will improve the soil's drainage slowly over a period of years (you mentioned compost, but mulch mowing the area gets messy when there are lots of leaves in the Fall. It's like they just don't have anywhere to go.)? I will likely start my own thread sometime this Spring to address my biggest problem areas, like that one, but I'm just looking for some general info that would educate me, Jesse, and others in the context of this thread at this point.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

So there are a few spots I lost to grubs that I am planning on reseeding in the spring. I plan to use tenacity at seed down then want to apply another pre-m when safe to get me through until fall when I will seed again. I was listening to @thegrassfactor talk about root pruning from pre-m on new grass and he explained pruning is more an issue for stoloniferous grass types. He said once a cool season grass tacks down a root you are pretty safe. I would wait until at least 4 mows. I was planning on a half rate of Pendimethalin after 4 mows.

Is this safe?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Check the product label for pendi. Some prem say 60days past seed down, others are based on mowings.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Thanks gman.. It looks like it's safe after 4 mowings. I am going to stick to a half rate app since this will be going down late May after the tenactiy wears off and I want to be able to seed again Sept 1. .



> With new lawns or seeding
> • Do not use on newly seeded lawns until after the fourth mowing. On newly sprigged areas.
> wait five months before applying.
> • Do not plant grass seed for four growing months or sprig for five months after use of this
> product.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

One other question- I am most likely going to attempt a renovation with my side yard this fall. If that is the plan, should I still use a pre-m there if I am going to smoke it all come summer for a sept 1 seed date?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It is really up to you. Using prem has the risk of a fail Reno vs. having weeds in the summer until you start round up. I prefer to bet for a successful Reno and not apply prem. Others will have a different opinion.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Here's what we're looking like today vs September of last year. I'm a tier two guy (and this is the area for the dog and boy) so I would be ok with what it looked like in the fall, clover and all. This just looks terrible currently. I understand the grass will wake up and this will improve, but there are some really thin/bare areas. I thought by overseeding in the fall I would have had a better chance for the grass to establish well before winter. (Overseeding on Labor day) I had grubs in the back corner of the fence, so I understand that damage. No late fall urea apps, but I did feed the lawn with a balanced fert app in October. Ugh this is depressing.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

if you normally get crabgrass or weeds in that area you're planning to renovate, I would definitely use a pre-M, but apply a type and rate that will wear off a couple of weeks before you put the seed down. Dimension 0.15% granular at 2.5 lbs/K between April 1st and April 15th would be an example. That's a pretty low rate, and you'd expect it would wear off by early August, or earlier.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Green said:


> if you normally get crabgrass or weeds in that area you're planning to renovate, I would definitely use a pre-M, but apply a type and rate that will wear off a couple of weeks before you put the seed down. Dimension 0.15% granular at 2.5 lbs/K between April 1st and April 15th would be an example. That's a pretty low rate, and you'd expect it would wear off by early August, or earlier.


That was the plan going into winter. This was supposed to be the first spring where I didn't have big bare spots and I planned on using a Pre-M. For whatever reason lots of that grass didn't make it through the winter so I will be seeding again this spring (at least in the backyard).


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I am so eager to do something in my lawn. I have my first app of lime ready to go. Shooting for 12-15#/M of dolomite lime. (Ph was 4.9 as of last fall.) My question is, does it need to be watered in deeply, or is the suggestion to water it in just to get the lime off the leaf?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> I am so eager to do something in my lawn. I have my first app of lime ready to go. Shooting for 12-15#/M of dolomite lime. (Ph was 4.9 as of last fall.) My question is, does it need to be watered in deeply, or is the suggestion to water it in just to get the lime off the leaf?


I'm not familiar with that type of Lime. The rapid-acting Calcitic Lime I use is not supposed to burn. I do like for it to get watered in by rain soon after, though...mainly because it starts acting sooner that way. That way, if I'm putting down a fertilizer that might interact with it, I don't have to wait as long in between.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Gave the yard a nice raking yesterday. Planning on putting down my lime Saturday with an inch+ of rain forecast for Sunday > Monday. Still too early for my grub preventer, or should I throw that down too?

I am still torn on how much spring seeding to do. My front yard is getting a prem and I'm not seeding there until fall since it is in pretty good shape. Here is what my backyard looked like this morning. The areas I've circled are the spots I am planning on seeding this spring using Tenacity. What do you guys think? Compared to a few weeks ago, it looks more and more like I could get by this summer without much seeding. Obviously in rough shape, but thinking long term for best results. Originally I wanted to do the whole backyard. Now I am thinking some tactical spring seeding and then prem the rest of the area.


If this were your yard, aside from crying, what would you do?

Anyway, I couldn't be happier for the warmer weather. Going to grab an angle grinder this weekend and sharpen the blade up a bit. Spring is here! :dancenana:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I've been indecisive on what type of grass to grow in my backyard. I've wanted Tall Fescue, but the short germination times and competitiveness of perennial rye caught my eye and with the backyard the dog and boy's domain I wanted something that would shoot up and go gangbusters like TTPR does. I found this seed a Home Depot and was pretty thrilled. zero weed seed and zero other seed??



After buying it though, I had second thoughts on it's drought and winter tolerance and did more research. I remember Green telling me that it doesn't really go dormant in the summer gracefully, it just dies for the most part. There is no NTEP data for TTPR in Connecticut, but there were tons of studies from Massachusetts which is only 40 miles north of where i live. I was pretty shocked to see the best culitvars had anywhere from 30-90% winter kill in Amherst, MA!



The new plan is to seed the areas I highlighted above with a blend of 3 tall fescues including Inferno and a blanket tenacity spray, followed by a granular app of dimension 3-4 weeks after seeding. I did another soil test using the mason jar and found my soil is mostly sand and silt with very little clay. I assume my best bet is topdressing with compost periodically, preferably after an aerate? Any other tips for my soil composition?

One good bit of news is ever since liming my yard, I have noticed worm castings all over the place. Is increased earthworm activity an expected result of liming, or just coincidence. Either way I will take it!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> zero weed seed and zero other seed??


Wow, I'm impressed.



jessehurlburt said:


> followed by a granular app of dimension 3-4 weeks after seeding


Obviously, the label is important. But you might consider that app based on number of times mowed rather than number of weeks elapsed since seeding. Fescue can take its sweet time, and you might be applying dimension to baby fescue that's one week old or less (even though your PRG has been kickin' for much longer).
I had to delay a dimension app this spring simply because my fescue wasn't established enough. 
This may be overkill on cautiousness, but it's something to consider.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

social port said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> > zero weed seed and zero other seed??
> ...


Thanks Social, I will check the label for sure.

I was listening to Grass Factor's weekly livestream last night and was thrilled to hear him address low CEC soils and how humic can help build up the soil CEC. I found a local landscaping store that offer 50# bags for $40. I'm going to throw down an app of that here soon.

Front and side lawn got an app of pendimethalin last night before the rain started.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

@jessehurlburt looks like a good mix. Lesco? The winter kill is alarming though.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> @jessehurlburt looks like a good mix. Lesco? The winter kill is alarming though.


Yeah, it was Lesco Double Eagle. Yeah, I returned it and will be using a blend of tall fescues instead. I don't mid spot seeding some areas that get damaged by the dog/winter, but that is just trying to fit a square peg in a sound hole. Tall Fescue is a much better option for the northeast IMO. So glad I looked at the NTEP data before seeding with it.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

How are those problem areas (the compacted ones w/o the standing water) coming along with the spade fork and peat moss?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> How are those problem areas (the compacted ones w/o the standing water) coming along with the spade fork and peat moss?


Hey Ridgerunner-

Thanks for checking in; it's back breaking work! I have been at it all week as the weather just turned. We had a good bit of rain a few weeks back and I noticed these spots where the larger sand particles seemed to pool together at the surface. 


Using the spade fork in these areas I need to put all 220lbs of myself on it and wiggle it to get it down 6-8". I found some areas with larger rocks underneath, but for the most part it is just extremely compacted sand/silt. I have been using a mix of black kow and peat moss to amend it. I have resigned myself to the back yard looking crappy all spring and summer, but the soil needs lots of work for any major overseeding project. I plan on using humic acid as grassfactor mentioned the benefits it offers in bringing up CEC and increasing soil surface area.


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## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Can confirm, that blend I used in the backyard and most died over winter. I'm gonna overseed this spring with it again because it looked great and I want to reel mow. Not sure if I'll do it every year tho lol


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Well, my "strategic seeding" turned into more than I had originally planned on. I didn't reseed the whole backyard, but I did focus on three areas that were the worst. I have each area covered by a oscillating sprinkler, so watering has been easy so far. I also put up fencing to keep the dog and boy off the areas that were most bare and got the most seed. I used peat on most areas and a tacky straw on the slopes. So it's been 6 days since seed down. These last 3 days have been nice and warm and soil temps are around 60 degrees so things should start moving here soon. I blanket sprayed 1 1/2 teaspoons of tenacity over the 2750 sq ft after getting the chapin sprayer calibrated. I havent put down any fert yet since I don't want to encourage the surrounding grass too much, but I'm thinking I should now that the seed should be germinating in the next week. Thoughts on that? I have lesco starter fert from last year but my test showed high phos levels and they recommened a zero phos fert. I know milo has a small amount of P, but should I throw some down, or some synth N?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I sprayed dandelions and plantains last week in the front yard and gave my blade the first sharpening of the year and mowed the front yard. Overall, I am very pleased with how the front is looking for an old no-mix lawn. I love mowing with a sharp blade! You can really hear the difference when cutting. Shots of the front:




My seedlings in the backyard have popped over the weekend. The mix I used was an agway tall fescue blend with about 8-9% PRG. I seeded 8 days ago on 4/28.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Congrats on the green babies!

Also, the front is looking good. :thumbsup:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

sprayed 3 oz/M of humic/fulvic/kelp concentrate on Saturday morning. Tall fescue is coming up nicely at this point.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Question on spraying this kelp/humic/fulvic blend- Is this absorbed through the leaf? We got rain shortly after my first app, and at first I thought that was helpful, but now I am wondering if best results come from letting the product dry on the leaf.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> Question on spraying this kelp/humic/fulvic blend- Is this absorbed through the leaf? We got rain shortly after my first app, and at first I thought that was helpful, but now I am wondering if best results come from letting the product dry on the leaf.


The fulvic and kelp are absorbed through the leaf. Once it rains or you mow then rain, the humic works in the soil as well as any fulvic and kelp which wasn't absorbed. Not an instant difference but over time, it makes a difference. It is also great to spray the mix when you fertilize or if you use liquid fertilizer, mix it all together.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Mowed an trimmed today. Tenacity is starting to bleach some poa and clover. Still not even close to where I want to be, but making progress. My main goal with the spring seeding was to prevent mud from coming in the house from the bare spots and to keep making incremental progress.  Today was the second mow, so I am hoping I can apply an app of dimension in the next few weeks to hold me over until labor day.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)




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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

@jessehurlburt Very nice! Looks like it's filling in and thickening up nicely :thumbup:


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Yes, looking very good. Nice work.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

It's been great weather for growing grass in CT this spring! Temps have been cool for the most part and we've been getting perfectly timed rain every 2-3 days. I haven't had to irrigate much at all after getting all the grass established. June forecast for the northeast is more average to below average temps. Got another app of the humic/fulvic/kelp down this past week. I hand weeded a flower bed that sits alongside my driveway and planted supertunias there. I need to mulch the area and spray weeds in the driveway, but it looks much nicer. After I get my mulch down and get things tidied up I will post some pics.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Mowed and mulched my new flower bed this weekend. While I have a bunch of different grass types and colors in the back I am happy with how it is coming in all things considered. I have to temper my expectations in the back. While trying to get the bare spots sorted out, I will take any type of grass, even the lime green tall fescue I never really noticed until the new, darker grass started growing well next to it. :? Compared to how awful it looked coming out of winter, I will take it. Still a long way to go (to which my parents remind me, "You have 30 years to get it how you want!") :lol: We had several dry days in a row and I was really pushing the grass (while keeping a close eye) to encourage the roots to go deep. This morning we got an inch of rain! :mrgreen:







I want to figure out when/how to plant turkish speedwell inbetween the flagstone. I still need to clean them up a bit first, but it would look nice and keep the weeds down.

Like this-


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## zinger565 (Nov 28, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> It's been great weather for growing grass in CT this spring! Temps have been cool for the most part and we've been getting perfectly timed rain every 2-3 days. I haven't had to irrigate much at all after getting all the grass established. June forecast for the northeast is more average to below average temps. Got another app of the humic/fulvic/kelp down this past week. I hand weeded a flower bed that sits alongside my driveway and planted supertunias there. I need to mulch the area and spray weeds in the driveway, but it looks much nicer. After I get my mulch down and get things tidied up I will post some pics.


Looking good! Super jealous of your weather, we just got done with 6 days straight of 90F + with little rain. Had a day of rain and back to upper 80s.

That flagstone idea looks really cool! Does that plant get tall enought to need to be mowed?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I found an old picture from last May. While I'm not where I want to be yet, looking back at these old pictures puts it in perspective. Got a nice compliment from my old man on Fathers day too which was nice.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> I found an old picture from last May. While I'm not where I want to be yet, looking back at these old pictures puts it in perspective. Got a nice compliment from my old man on Fathers day too which was nice.


What a difference!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I haven't posted an update in a while as I am a bit embarrassed with where things are currently. I royally screwed up by not applying a follow up pre-m after getting my new grass established this spring. Should have done a second app of Tenacity 1 month after seeding then put down prodiamine to get me through until fall. It looked so good last month! I ended up applying tenacity to kill off the grassy weeds. it is working as it is lit up white, but there was some collateral damage. Also have a bit of dormancy back here. This is the worst of it.  


A good deal of the grass I planted this spring is doing well, just need to get these weeds knocked out so I can overseed this area this fall. All in all, for not having irrigation, most of the rest of the yard is looking good. This second photo shows that the saying is true. I thick stand of grass is your best defense against weeds. This section didn't get a pre-m either and there are just a few weeds and a spot of poa. This area is also looking nice and green considering the lack of rain we've had. 


Not the update I wanted to post, but it is what it is.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

@jessehurlburt I didn't apply a pre m either in the fall or spring. I'm feeling the weed pressure and just had to apply Tenacity. I feel your pain!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

At this point, I don't care how it looks in the back, I just need to get rid of this grassy weed so it doesn't interfere with my overseed. It looks pretty much cooked at this point so should be ready in late August. I also got rid of all the clover back there too. Excited for fall!


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> At this point, I don't care how it looks in the back, I just need to get rid of this grassy weed so it doesn't interfere with my overseed. It looks pretty much cooked at this point so should be ready in late August. I also got rid of all the clover back there too. Excited for fall!


Excited for fall is right :thumbup:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Did a follow up spot spray of tenacity on some remaining grassy weeds I missed. I think that should do it for the weeds I have left! Yard looks like crap at the moment, but it is just about weed free. The forecast for my area is drastically improving this week. Supposed to get an inch of rain tomorrow that is badly needed, then temps falling into the low 80s for the next few weeks. We have 8 days in a row of possible storms (60% chance each day) coming up so I am getting a bit antsy to throw down some N. I'm thinking about a very light urea app prior to rain, maybe a half lb/k to give me .25# N. Should i resist the urge and wait another month, or use a organic fert instead? I don't use milo since my P is already on the high side.

Also trying to figure out which TTTF seed to use this fall. I found this at a local landscape supply store and the sales guy said it is popular among his clientele. Trying not to spend a fortune having to ship a 25lb bag. This stuff sells for $2.50 a lb. I couldn't find a whole lot on the cultivars aside from the Aztec. Does anyone have any experience with ****** Tonk or the Dixie Green? Just about weed free seed too.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

I'm considering the same things as far as a very light dose of N. I also sprayed Tenacity recently and am expecting lower temps soon. I'm going to have empty spots that I want to encourage some growth into.

The seed I source locally actually looks better than the more expensive stuff I got from an online source. Go figure!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

pennstater2005 said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> > At this point, I don't care how it looks in the back, I just need to get rid of this grassy weed so it doesn't interfere with my overseed. It looks pretty much cooked at this point so should be ready in late August. I also got rid of all the clover back there too. Excited for fall!
> ...


 :nod:

I'm getting ready to remind the family that "it is almost grass season. I will be kicking into high gear soon. Fair warning."



jessehurlburt said:


> Does anyone have any experience with ****** Tonk or the Dixie Green?


No experience. But ****** Tonk was a player in NTEP. I remember seeing it earlier this year while researching.
http://www.ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_11-8/tf06_11-8.pdf


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

social port said:


> :nod:
> 
> I'm getting ready to remind the family that "it is almost grass season. I will be kicking into high gear soon. Fair warning."


I took off the last two days in August and booked my son a weekend with the grandparents. Can't wait to overseed.

Looks like major rain today. I saw a report that said 1-2 inches with some areas getting 4-5. Flash flood warnings. My lawn needs it so bad!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Looks like a weather pattern is setting up to drop some more significant rainfall the next 2 weeks. I have some areas of my yard that have gone dormant and other areas still looking very nice and green. Would it be OK to put down a quarter pound of N before the rains begin again on Sunday? I am eager to make a urea/humic cocktail and spray.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

We have a similar forecast here in western PA and I plan on using my new Scott's Whizz spreader to drop .25#/M of urea because I recently sprayed Tenacity and I want to mildly encourage a little fill in. I might even go lighter than the .25#/M.

Edited to add: Similar with less rainfall


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Applied .25#/M of 46-0-0 urea with the whizz for the first time. I watered it in with a humic/fulvic/kelp blend with a hose end sprayer. We're also supposed to get showers too this afternoon into tonight. Backyard is looking pretty crappy at the moment, but there aren't many weeds left. All the foxtail patches are white and dying. just a little stubborn clover left. Got my hunter pros and Mp rotators for my above ground sprinkler rig I will use on a timer this fall for my overseed project. Come on fall!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> Did a follow up spot spray of tenacity on some remaining grassy weeds I missed. I think that should do it for the weeds I have left! Yard looks like crap at the moment, but it is just about weed free. The forecast for my area is drastically improving this week. Supposed to get an inch of rain tomorrow that is badly needed, then temps falling into the low 80s for the next few weeks. We have 8 days in a row of possible storms (60% chance each day) coming up so I am getting a bit antsy to throw down some N. I'm thinking about a very light urea app prior to rain, maybe a half lb/k to give me .25# N. Should i resist the urge and wait another month, or use a organic fert instead? I don't use milo since my P is already on the high side.
> 
> Also trying to figure out which TTTF seed to use this fall. I found this at a local landscape supply store and the sales guy said it is popular among his clientele. Trying not to spend a fortune having to ship a 25lb bag. This stuff sells for $2.50 a lb. I couldn't find a whole lot on the cultivars aside from the Aztec. Does anyone have any experience with ****** Tonk or the Dixie Green? Just about weed free seed too.


What was the price like there according to your quote from Dan/Mario for 50 lbs of that seed?

1.8 to 2 inches of rain so far...we're doing well. I'd resist the urge to do any further synthetic N for a while since it's bound to heat up and dry out again...that 0.25 lb (of actual N?) should hold you over for the next few weeks, and you got it down during a good window. Any more would have been asking for trouble, I think.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

This TTTF blend was $2.50/lb

They also had a TTTF blend with 10% blue and a percentage of PRG too. I think that was also $2.50lb. They had different size bags of each. Dans been helpful.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Good price. As far as weeds, 0.64 ounces of every pound is non grass. I guess it depends what that is if it's an issue or not.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Green said:


> As far as weeds, 0.64 ounces of every pound is non grass. I guess it depends what that is if it's an issue or not.


From what I understand, the meaning of 'other crop' varies by state. Can you imagine dallisgrass being 'other crop,' poa A, goose grass, bbbb...bermuda? Scares me to death.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > As far as weeds, 0.64 ounces of every pound is non grass. I guess it depends what that is if it's an issue or not.
> ...


For me personally, the one that give me the shivers is _poa trivialis_ -- it's just "other crop" on a seed label...


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Green said:


> Good price. As far as weeds, 0.64 ounces of every pound is non grass. I guess it depends what that is if it's an issue or not.


When you put it like that, green..

:?

Maybe I'll order through Hogan..


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## SJ Lawn (May 7, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> This TTTF blend was $2.50/lb
> 
> They also had a TTTF blend with 10% blue and a percentage of PRG too. I think that was also $2.50lb. They had different size bags of each. Dans been helpful.


Nothing against the local seller..the 0.04% other crop is too risky for a lawn care nut !

Order from Hogan Seed and pay the shipping. For 25 pounds, Hogan Seed with sell it to you for something like $ 2.10 a pound. Add about 28 dollars for shipping and you are looking at 3.22 per pound shipped. This is 18 dollars more than the local seller.....do you want to risk the 0.04% crop seed for 18 dollars ?


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> For me personally, the one that give me the shivers is poa trivialis


That name has always bothered me. I suppose 'trivialis' is getting at how common the weed is, but the term also suggests something about it being insignificant. 
It should be renamed poa miserum (wretched poa) :nod:


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## SJ Lawn (May 7, 2018)

SJ Lawn said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> > This TTTF blend was $2.50/lb
> ...


Sorry. Your shipping cost will be around 35 dollars to CT. I live in SJ and paid around 25 dollars for shipping 2 years ago.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I would look at NTEP tests, focusing mostly on CT, RI, MA, and NJ tests, and pick the cultivars you want. Two to four is sufficient for Tall Fescue. Google for info on them after that. Then check seed seller websites and call around to see who has them. Sometimes you have to order from a couple of places to get what you want. If you call United Seed to ask abput cultivars, ask for Andre Hoyt (the vice president). He might even take your order after giving you the info. He is always the person they give me when I want to ask about seed. If he seems busy and there isn't enough time to get everything done, see if email or a call another day would be more convenient for him.

At Hogan and United at least, they are happy to discuss other crop percentages, etc. Often, they tell you without you asking, because their business models assume people want seed as weed free as possible...most of the clients are golf courses, etc. These people buy large quantities and try not to risk too much.

I would have a list with 6 to 8 potential cultivars you're intetested in, as backup, when you call these guys. Tell them upfront you're a do-it-yourself lawn guy looking for premium seed, were referred by other people, and want to see if they have certain grass cultivars you're potentially interested in.

@SJ Lawn, shipping cost can vary over time...and it depends on different factors. But 25 to 35 sounds about right for 25 lbs.

Also don't necessarily go by the online cultivars listed and prices if any are listed. Ask what they have and how much it is for the quantity you want! The websites may not have everything.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Good price. As far as weeds, 0.64 ounces of every pound is non grass. I guess it depends what that is if it's an issue or not.
> ...


@jessehurlburt, Sorry. I think I was off by two decimal places...

Always check your math! :thumbup:

0.0064 ounce of every pound is non grass seed. Whether that's signoficant depends in part on how many seeds that might be. TTTF is what...around 230,000 seeds per lb? That's around 14.4K seeds per ounce. You lose 92 of those due to other crop seeds. Some other crop seeds are smaller, so you could be gaining up to 400+ other crop seeds per pound.

It's still a lot better than Scotts seed. I have a bag and it's 0.25% other crop and 0.01% actual weed seed, so 0.26% in total. I'm taking that gamble in a part of the yard that isn't important. I also used some Ace branded Barenbrug seed that was even higher I believe. If you have a low inout area, it might not be a big deal for that area, and the cost savings may be a bigger factor for that area. I got the Scotts seed at a discount as it was expired.

If you want to pick cultivars, though, Hogan, United, and Pawnee Buttes by phone are the best way to go for TTTF.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Green said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


Thanks for your thoughts, Green. I will most likely just grab the TTTF mix from Valley Green. I am seeding into a backyard that already has poa triv and poa annua. A reno just isnt possible there with the amount of year-round usage the area gets. Incremental progress is all I can hope for. If I was doing a reno I would absolutely pay the extra money for weed free seed.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

4 days ago I applied a quarter pound of quick release N. We've gotten a few inches of rain since then and the lawn is bouncing back from the summer stress. I think I have one more tenacity spot spray to get the remaining clover and foxtail I missed but overall I am pretty weed free back here. I am very excited about thickening it up this fall and getting on a proper Pre-m schedule next year.

One thing I am curious about is timing of poa germination and what I can do about that considering I am seeding this fall. Would a blanket tenacity app as a pre-m work at seed down (Sept 1st) or is that too late?

Here are the photos from 2 weeks back vs today.

July 12th-



July 27th


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Sept 1st would probably be ok, because Tenacity is also a post emergent. But definitely add non ionic surfactant. Also you'll need to do a followup app no later than 6 weeks later...it's not a one and done thing. The Poa potentially keeps germinating until the ground freezes. So you can figure out the schedule and how it will play with your overseed. Regular pre-M is an option as things progress to a certain point.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

So don't water it in, green?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jessehurlburt said:


> So don't water it in, green?


You can water it in (and you should if there isn't rain), but try to let it sit overnight first. Also make sure you use enough spray volume for a soil app, but use the NIS as you would for a foliar app. That's what I do. Two modes of action that way.

You'll have to play with the timings so you don't kill your overseed. Maybe omit the surfactant at that point, too.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ also, mulch mow after the nis to keep the tenacity in the lawn.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> ^ also, mulch mow after the nis to keep the tenacity in the lawn.


2 or more days later, to be precise. Stretch it out as long as you can...i.e. try to apply the Tenacity 2 days after mowing so you can go as long as possible until the next mow.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I completed an overseed of an area about 700 sq ft this weekend. This is the last of the seeding in my front yard. I call this my side yard. I scalped and bagged, then used the greenworks dethatcher agressively to open up the canopy. You can see a huge difference between just the mow and bag, vs the dethatch then rake.




After raking and removing all the thatch and dead grass, I overseeded with TTTF, sprayed 1/2 teaspoon of tenacity, then covered thinner areas with peat. Set the sprinkler up on the timer to water three times a day while I am at work.



I've been seeing germination at day 5 so hoping to get this grass up here before the main event in the backyard labor day weekend.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

Is that a tree root in that last photo? The dethatcher looks to be doing a good job. I may have to get one of these next spring for my warm season lawn areas.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

drenglish said:


> Is that a tree root in that last photo? The dethatcher looks to be doing a good job. I may have to get one of these next spring for my warm season lawn areas.


It is a tree root. Yeah, I definitely recommend the greenworks.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

When that TTTF grows in, that root will disappear and if you're mowing tall it won't be an issue. I had about a dozen visible roots on my property and I started thinking I'd take them all out....then I thought of the 6-7 trees a year later falling over....I let them be for now. What scalp height did you hit the fescue at?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Yeah, it doesn't look like it from the photo, but I can go over it without hitting the blade. You can see that root in this shot too. 
I didn't measure the HOC, but I would guess about 2".

Seeding the fall is so much easier with the warm soil temps. I seeded this spot on 8/14.



This was this morning, 7 days later.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

It's been a busy weekend. I was off of work Thursday and Friday and my son started kindergarten so he was gone all day which gave me 18 hours in the lawn between those two days. Thursday, I spent the majority of the day hand pulling crabgrass. I royally screwed up by not following up my spring Tenacity blanket app (I was spring seeding some sections) with a second round of prodiamine. Crabgrass moved in and then it got hot and I just wasn't out there enough to realize how bad it was. I was being cheap and didn't want to buy quinclorac and MSO. In hindsight, especially since i was seeding TTTF, I would have ponied up the $60-80 and sprayed. That said, there was an instant gratification pulling the huge crabgrass plants out and making space for new grass. I used this tool to pull the crabgrass and it did a really good job. 
https://www.hardwareworld.com/p38gx77/Ergo-Hand-Weeder?gclid=CjwKCAjw2rjcBRBuEiwAheKeLwZEWjMV3p5EihNjBnW5Issxmxo5VmCjZOMwlsl-P8OBdoMxQkKMrxoC3WIQAvD_BwE

Friday I scalped and bagged then ran the Greenworks over the area to be seeded. I then raked and bagged the clippings and thatch. I used a good deal of Black Kow compost in the sandier areas on my lawn where grass has struggled. I used a spade fork and after making dozens of deep holes, topdressed with the compost and lightly raked it in to the holes. I also used a bit in each of the areas where my dog forgot to use his bathroom behind the shed prior to seeding. I set up three sprinklers which cover the whole area. I am watering ever 2 hours right now since it is near record temps in CT. The weather has been especially challenging since I overseeded my front yard a month ago and have all my spriklers set up in the back. I have been hand watering the new grass in the front and side yard each morning to keep it going until cooler temps move in later this week. (15 day forecast is looking nice come Friday!) I cannot wait to drop some N on my newer grass up front, it really needs it but has just been too hot and no rain. Some of the grass is yellowing a bit.

I sprayed a blanket app of tenacity .5 teaspoons per k and am already seeing some whitening of the undesirable grasses. I should have germination tomorrow based on the seeding I did last month in similar weather. Looking forward to cooler temps and some rain.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Side yard after second mow. Applied bag rate milo and roughly .5# of urea last night before the rain started.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Some backyard photos. They're ugly!

Between the dormancy spots, weeds getting lit up by the tenacity and the bare spots, it is looking kinda rough at the moment. I can't wait for the first mow!

8.25

9.9.18

9.9.18


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## chriscarigs (Jul 10, 2018)

That close up picture of the new grass grow looks very similar to my bare area that I reseeded. Did you use TTTF? I was starting to wonder if mine would fill in more or if it was normal at this stage (I put seed down around the same time as you).

Do you plan to add in seed or do you expect the grass in that area to fill in more as it matures?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Yes, it is a three way TTTF blend. I think that area in the close up is fine. It will tiller and fill in. I am going to cut it once the rain stops and it dries out in a few days. @g-man has shared info on cutting new grass short to promote it to thicken up. I did have a squirrel dig in a few spots, but overall i am pleased with how this section came in. I did have some other areas that didn't come in as evenly, but they will still be better than they were.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

> Most wait too long to mow a newly seeded lawn, so mow early and often. Initially mow Kentucky bluegrass, perennial rye, and fine fescue at 1.5 inches and tall fescue at 2.0 inches. After the first three to four mowings, you can adjust your mower to the permanent mowing height which is 2.0 to 3.5 inches for Kentucky bluegrass, perennial rye, and fine fescue and 2.5 to 4.0 inches for tall fescue.


From Purdue: Establishing Turfgrass from Seeds


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## chriscarigs (Jul 10, 2018)

:thumbup: Awesome! Thanks! Typically I tend to be a bit impatient....glad to see I should just keep sitting tight. I was also considering my first mow of the new stuff shortly.

I feel like our weather here in CT is starting to look really good for growing grass. I'm excited and hoping to see some good results in the coming weeks. Good Luck!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

chriscarigs said:


> I feel like our weather here in CT is starting to look really good for growing grass. I'm excited and hoping to see some good results in the coming weeks. Good Luck!


Ah, I missed you were from CT too. Yeah, August was tough with high heat and very little rain in my parts. I am very excited to see rain and cooler temps in the forecast. Felt good dropping some N in my front yard last night before the rain started. Best of luck to you as well!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Here are some new pictures.

Here is a shot of my front area prior to seeding:


And here it is yesterday after the second mow:


Here is my backyard before and after seeding:







It needs to thicken up a bit and there are areas where the seeding didn't take as well as others. These are definitely the most flattering angles.  The backyard is starving for N. I applied milo yesterday since I had it, but tonight I am dropping a half # N urea prior to the rain we are getting tonight > tomorrow. Excited to see it after a few feedings and some more mows.

That said, I am pretty happy overall and excited to apply a pre-m next spring. My goal is to achieve a high quality tier 2 lawn with few weeds or bare spots. While the OCD perfectionist in me is not satisfied yet, I keep thinking of that great quote from DFW pilot about perfection being impossible and to just enjoy the process. I certainly do enjoy it!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Front and back yard are looking awesome! Especially the front!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Mozart said:


> Front and back yard are looking awesome! Especially the front!


The front is a week or 10 days ahead and has been fed with milo and urea (then a couple inches of rain) so I am hoping the back takes off after the same.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Hey, Jesse, that Ergo hand tool-the one you used to pull the crabgrass-did you find that you were able to get roots using that tool? I'm nearly ready to pull the trigger on it, but just curious about how well it got the roots out of the ground.

@jessehurlburt


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Nice transformation! Waiting to get what we desire is the hardest part. Doing the work is easy!


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

:thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

Coming along real good,great job


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Update on the backyard overseed. All in all it has come in good. Next year I will need to start applying preventative fungicides as I had my first outbreak recently. You can see a few of the spots where (what I believe is) PB killed some grass. As someone looking for a Tier 2 lawn, I would say I am pretty close to where I want to be. Its so hard with an active dog to get the results you want!

8.26.18- 


9.9.18


10.5.18


10.16.18


Front Yard:
2 years ago: 


1 year ago 10.18.17


8.22.18


10.1.18


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

:thumbup:


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

@jessehurlburt lookin good man...that slope must have been a challenge with all the storms we have been having this year in Ct.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

You did it!


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

Good work


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## chriscarigs (Jul 10, 2018)

Awesome! love the before and after


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I spent some time yesterday cleaning up the retaining wall alongside my driveway. I discovered a section of retaining wall I didn't know I had. Next year I will plant something low and carpet like between the flag stones.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Instant wall!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I picked up a 1995 Toro Super Recycler on craigslist for $75. It has an electric start, aluminum cast deck, and rear wheel drive. The thing is pretty bad ***, IMO. It starts so easy with pull start and runs great, I am very happy with it. I replaced the air filter, blade and oil yesterday and fixed the upper handle. I have a new belt for it I need to put on. I've been charging the battery for the electric start, but haven't tested it yet. If this battery is no longer good, I will figure out the voltage needed and pick up a smaller Lith-ion battery for it. It cuts very nicely. 


The lawn has definitely slowed down, but it is still growing. Here are some current shots of how things are looking.






Here is my sempervivum garden along my driveway I started this fall. Looking forward to seeing these start multiplying in the spring. I need a few more bags of pea gravel and some more chicken grit to top dress these. 



In between the flagstones I want to propagate a creeping stonecrop to fill in all the areas between them. I think I've settled on what I want to use. There is a variety called "Faro Form" from the Faro islands off the cost of sweden. It is an extremely low growing sedum and turns from a lime green to a deep red when the temps fall. I plan on fallowing and glyphosating in the spring, then planting roughly 20 plants, then will let them creep and do their thing. 


Overall, it was a good year and I accomplished what I wanted- getting to a solid tier 2 lawn. Next year I hope to spend more of my time creating beds in the backyard, bringing in mluch for the areas behind my shed and planting more sepervivum and sedum in pots and containers. I also want to replace this fence in my front yard to match the one I installed along the side a few years back.



I will also reluctantly get the snow blower ready for the season this weekend. :x :lol:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

:thumbup: looks great!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Solid lawn. Feels good to reach that point, doesn't it?

So, this new mower...do you think the blade on it is the original type? How does the mulching performance seem, and what mower were you using before? I believe you said Craftsman, but I wasn't sure what type/age. Are you keeping both?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I got the OEM Toro reycler blade for it. Surprised to see toro stocks most of the parts for this one still. It really mulches well. The deck has those kickers under it. My craftsman was only a couple years old. Embarrassing story with that one. I was rushing to finish a mow before the rain and hit a water access pipe in my front yard that was covered with grass. When I say I hit it, I mean I ran right over it. The sound was awful. I replaced the blade but after starting it back up and it quickly dying I flipped it over and spun the blade by hand and realized I had bent the crankshaft. I gave it away free on Craigslist. I'll share some more photos after I clean it up a bit. I really can't belive how nicely it runs and how easily it starts for a 23 year old mower. They guy who owned it took very good care of it. He sold since he was moving into a retirement community.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What are you doing about the access pipe?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

g-man said:


> What are you doing about the access pipe?


Luckily, I only damaged the cap to it. The water company came by and replaced it with a cap that sits just about flush with the ground, so I don't think I could hit it now if I tried, but that won't happen again. I felt so stupid. Water guy was cool about it and didn't charge me for the new cap.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Can someone give me a hand with what disease I'm looking at here? We've had several frosts, so I am surprised to see this. Perhaps I am just noticing this now.. I have Disease X on hand.. It's only on the new grass it seems..
@Green @g-man


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In the center left, look at the circle. Gray or regular leaf spot.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Thank you @g-man !!


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

I have this too Im just keeping an eye on it I only want to use a fungicide if I really need too


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In a Reno, don't take risks.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Look for rust, too. It often co-occurs.


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