# Granular or liquid humic acid



## SNOWBOB11

Looking to add humic acid to the lawn, but wanted to know if there are any benifits to using granular or liquid? What do you guys prefer and why? Thanks in advance.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Liquid. It's cheaper. Specifically, a powdered version which has to be dissolved and sprayed.


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## SNOWBOB11

I was hoping someone would say liquid. It's easier to find and as you say cheaper. Thanks


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## jessehurlburt

I watched a few of Green County youtube videos and I've heard John Perry mention a few times how his RGS product is different than powdered humic/fulvic/kelp in that they it is not "re-constituted". This was confusing since humic acid comes from Leonardite-it is not a liquid.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

I think John means, after they process it, however that is done (leonardite probably ground up and put in water, then ph brought up and down to precipitate out other stuff so they have separate fulvic and humic acids but who knows?), it is still in liquid form. They bottle it then. Other companies dry it out and package it. John is saying something is lost once it is dried out and packaged. He doesn't specifically say what or why and since he is selling a liquid, maybe he doesn't want to discount his own product. It might be better as a liquid before being dried but by how much and does it make enough difference to warrant the extra cost? I'm not sure. I believe his product is definitely top notch (so if the price difference isn't big or doesn't affect your budget, I'd just get his products) but his RGS does cost more than the dried similar version from kelp4less.

I do like his air8 product as that seems to be different than a packaged humic or fulvic acid product. It is bottled partway along the process of making the humic and fulvic acids. It isn't fully reacted and when you put that in the soil, it is supposed to finish reacting which is supposed to cause soil particles to clump therefore creating micro fissures all throughout the soil. A very fine aeration essentially. That's my understanding of it but this may not be accurate so don't take my word for it! I've seen it's effects first hand and I'm a believer, regardless of how it works...


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## Green

How do you go about evaluating and comparing the concentration difference of a powder versus a liquid like RGS versus a granular like Humic DG? I think this is a really important thing that we need to know how to do in terms of the math.

-Powder
-Liquid
-Granular

And the granular must use a carrier, no?

Percentages and weights of AI...and how to compare them...?
Foliar versus root absorbtion for fulvic acid may also be a factor in this.


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## g-man

@Suburban Jungle Life you used the kelp product in the past and then tried the air-8 and you noticed a different response, correct? Have you noticed if the effect is short lived and reapplication is needed?


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## Green

g-man said:


> Suburban Jungle Life you used the kelp product in the past and then tried the air-8 and you noticed a different response, correct? Have you noticed if the effect is short lived and reapplication is needed?


I'm really interested in seeing how effective AIR8 is for people, too.


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## osuturfman

Granular will give you more bang for your buck. Think pounds on the ground.

Liquid is easier to source, mix, and apply. That said, it is more expensive and even with the best products, you're paying for a jug that's +/- 88% water.


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## SNOWBOB11

osuturfman said:


> Granular will give you more bang for your buck. Think pounds on the ground.
> 
> Liquid is easier to source, mix, and apply. That said, it is more expensive and even with the best products, you're paying for a jug that's +/- 88% water.


Good points. I don't have a source for granular as of yet so I'm probably going to get the powder and tank mix. The air8 humic looks like it could be interesting. I might give that one a try.


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## g-man

I lean on the skeptical that a $100 product that is mostly water with a heavy dose of marketing is worth it. At the same time seeing the video of folks being able to go deep with a screwdriver is interesting. I can do that after rain, but on dry soil, I could barely go 1/2in. I also dont like the idea of applying a high pH product to my 8.1pH soil.

Hearing SJL state it made a difference makes me think. What is his soil CEC? what is his soil pH? What is the long term effect of the product? Going deeper into the soil with a screwdriver might be great, but does it make a difference to the lawn (deeper roots?). What I would like to see is a formal Design of Experiment (DOE) with a control plot. If I had the time, I would do it in my lawn, but too many projects this year.


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## JDgreen18

https://www.gardenersedge.com/the-andersons-humic-dg-granular-soil-conditioner-humic-acid-40lb-bag/p/HUMDG/#customer_reviews

What about something like this???


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## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> I lean on the skeptical that a $100 product that is mostly water with a heavy dose of marketing is worth it. At the same time seeing the video of folks being able to go deep with a screwdriver is interesting. I can do that after rain, but on dry soil, I could barely go 1/2in. I also dont like the idea of applying a high pH product to my 8.1pH soil.
> 
> Hearing SJL state it made a difference makes me think. What is his soil CEC? what is his soil pH? What is the long term effect of the product? Going deeper into the soil with a screwdriver might be great, but does it make a difference to the lawn (deeper roots?). What I would like to see is a formal Design of Experiment (DOE) with a control plot. If I had the time, I would do it in my lawn, but too many projects this year.


Some background: I have known this lawn for 15 years but I had only gotten into lawn care in the last year so I figured I would start working on this lawn to improve it. It had gotten one fert app which wasn't measured but just tossed by hand about 12 years ago. Other than that, it didn't have anything applied, had many weeds, is full sun, a nomix with some zoysia in patches. It is the hell strip and it had been walked over this whole time. I figured it was compacted and wanted to do a core aeration. I had heard about air8 and I figured, what do I have to lose if it didn't work. I'll just work on it next year instead if this didn't pan out since the owner doesn't care.

On another lawn which is fescue, I applied air8 at 9oz/M once in spring and I am planning on doing it again in the fall. The one app did seem to reduce the amount of water which puddles but I'm not sure I saw a big difference. I was still skeptical.

I decided I wanted to convert this whole lawn to zoysia since we have a 4-5 mo growing window, it wouldn't need much mowing (which they're not good with keeping up). If I was applying air8 2 times for cool season, once in spring, once in fall, I figured I should apply air8 twice to this lawn but I would do it up front for 2 consecutive months since there's only 1 growing season instead of 2 for a nomix lawn. Initially, I was transferring plugs from the existing zoysia patches to help the zoysia spread faster. I sprayed out the nomix and it left a lot of empty areas.

I used a proplugger. Great tool btw. Thanks @GrassDaddy! Saw it in your video.

Anyway, the soil was really hard and it wasn't easy to get the plugger in to the ground. I did it a day after it rained so I was hoping it would be softer. Once I had done the plugs, I sprayed air8 at 9oz/M, kelp4less mix of humic/fulvic/kelp, and put down fert. A month later, I sprayed air8 again. The zoysia was filling in nicely on one part but most of the strip was still bare and looked worse as the nomix died. I guess I really needed a lot more plugs. So, I went back to plugging. I watered the day before to help soften the ground. The next day, I went to start plugging and I put one foot on the plugger and was about to lift the other foot off the ground to jump on the plugger and it just sunk in. I couldn't believe it! I tried again and I put my 1 foot on the plugger and pushed a little and it again sunk down. Then, I went to the spot where I was pulling plugs from which I didn't spray air8 since I wasn't going to take care of that part of the lawn and the soil was rock hard. I had to jump hard on the plugger to get it to penetrate into the dirt. Back and forth for probably 150 plugs. The area I sprayed air8 had much better tilth also. The dirt was crumbly and more powdery. So, it is about 2-3" of dirt then orange clay which is really hard. When I finished, I was there the next day and it was pouring rain. Normally, the water puddles and then runs off into the street. Now, there was only a small puddle and the water wasn't sheeting off the dirt. That air8 really made a large difference. This was about 2 weeks ago so I don't have long term results to share unfortunately. I filmed the progression and intend to start my youtube channel so once I get that up, you can see the progression. I didn't film myself doing the plugs though. So, 2 apps of air8 made a big difference, at least for now. I imagine this would have to be repeated annually just like doing a core aeration but perhaps, with the addition of all that humic, it might just become a better soil and won't need air8 or core aeration in the future.

As for deeper roots, I would imagine that would happen but at least, the roots would be able to grow through a looser soil and water would penetrate easier.

Regarding the kelp4less mix of humic/fulvic/kelp, I use the same ratio as RGS except the humic % is lower since I am assuming the mix is an even 1/3 of each product. I can't say I have seen any obvious differences though. I do use in in conjunction when I fert but I haven't done a control plot without the humates and only the fert so I don't have a comparison. The grass looks just fine and is thick and lush. I can't really say it is better now than last year when I wasn't using it. I got the kelp4less product because the GCF wasn't available to homeowners (small quantity) yet and no way was I buying a tote of it.

@g-man For your curiosity, if it helps. Regarding the PH, I didn't apply sulfur or lime. I'll retest it next spring to see where the ph is. I didn't apply AMS, only urea based and org ferts to this lawn. (Trying to use up leftover products/clearance products I picked up.) I tested the hose water ph and it is about 7, sometimes a hair under.


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## Harts

I just started using liquid HA from Gardeners Pantry this year. I've only done one application so far - still trying to figure out the right mix rate.

Nature's Lawn is in Buffalo and will ship to Canada.

Both also sell Kelp Fert. I don't have the experience to know if granular is better than liquid or vice versa.

@SNOWBOB11 do you have a way of getting the Greene County products across the border that I'm not aware of?


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## Ridgerunner

osuturfman said:


> Granular will give you more bang for your buck. Think pounds on the ground.
> 
> Liquid is easier to source, mix, and apply. That said, it is more expensive and even with the best products, you're paying for a jug that's +/- 88% water.


 :thumbup: 
5 Gallons of 12% HA is 5.34 lbs of HA. @$100 or $18.72 a pound
5 Gallons of 8% content HA is 3.56 lbs of Ha @$105 or $29.49 a pound
40 lb bag of 70% HA is 28 lbs of HA @$42.99 or $1.54 a pound
Want the 5% K too, add 4.5 lbs of potassium sulfate @$2.00 per pound
Want the effects of high pH and K, add 3 lbs of KOH @$3.50 a pound.

I started a response to the issue of "liquid aeration," but I've responded to discussion of liquid compaction products (liquid aeration) numerous times before. So makes no sense to do it again, besides, I can't use liquid aeration due to my arse being allergic to smoke.


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## SNOWBOB11

Harts said:


> @SNOWBOB11 do you have a way of getting the Greene County products across the border that I'm not aware of?


Haven't actually called them yet or fully decided which one I'm going with, but if it's one thing I've learned is you can get pretty much any product for the lawn/garden that is out there if your willing to take the time figure it out and pay the money to get it here. It just comes down to whether paying more is worth it results rise or not in the long run.


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## Harts

I have emailed Greene County Fert this morning. Their website says they will ship internationally to Canada only. Although I don't know if this applies to Home Owners or not. I'll let you know what they say.

I was on LCN's website. It looks like they will ship to Canada (website is misleading because it says US Only, however that just applies to the Free Shipping). So this is what I found:

Bio Stimulant Pack
N-Ext RGS (1 gallon)
N-Ext Humic12 (1 gallon)
N-Ext Micro Greene 0-0-2 (1 gallon)
N-Ext Air8 0-0-5 (1 gallon)

$104 US
Shipping to Mississauga - $136.48

Compaction Cure Combo
RGS & Air8

$110 US
Shipping to Mississauga - $151.79

There is a website http://nyaddress.ca/ that I have signed up for but not used yet. It's pay as you go ($2.95 per package regardless of size). They give you your own suite number to use with their address (Niagara Falls, NY). The thing is, you then have to drive across the border to pick it up.

You are right, there are always options. I'm just not sure I can stomach $250 to order the N-Ext products and have it shipped direct to me - unless of course it's going to mow the lawn for me and pour me a pint while I watch.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@Ridgerunner I like the idea of constituting it yourself but does combining the separate products after the fact equal the same chemical composition during processing? I'm not a chemist but there are reactions which wouldn't produce the same compounds by combining the products later. Your thoughts?


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## Harts

@SNOWBOB11 here is the reply for Greene County Fert:



> Hello Chris,
> 
> Thank you for your interest in Greene County Fertilizer Company products. Unfortunately our products are not available in Canada.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Deidra Huff, Communications


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## SNOWBOB11

@Harts :thumbup:


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## Ridgerunner

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Ridgerunner I like the idea of constituting it yourself but does combining the separate products after the fact equal the same chemical composition during processing? I'm not a chemist but there are reactions which wouldn't produce the same compounds by combining the products later. Your thoughts?


The same chemical composition?  The most common definition for humic acid (HA) is that it is a long carbon chain precipitate that occurs when an alkaline solution of humic substance extract is acidified. I'm not a chemist either, but that doesn't seem to be very definitive. There is no single chemical formula that describes those chains. So, If it was soluble at an alkaline pH and it precipitated at an acidic pH, it's HA, period. If you mean "purity," that's a different discussion.
The KOH solution in some products is nothing more, nor less, than the solution that was used to extract (make soluble) the HA from the humic parent material.
IMO, as I find HA to be HA by default and as studies have shown foliar applications to do very little for the soil (due to the small application rates), I prefer the dry solid form. I've used it for a variety of reasons based on HA's known and suspected beneficial characteristics, but never to alleviate compaction.


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## XiolaOne

Are you referring to the K4L Extreme Blend? If so, Im curious on your mixing ratio if you don't mind. Seeing how cheap it is, I want to test it out



Suburban Jungle Life said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, the soil was really hard and it wasn't easy to get the plugger in to the ground. I did it a day after it rained so I was hoping it would be softer. Once I had done the plugs, I sprayed air8 at 9oz/M, kelp4less mix of humic/fulvic/kelp, and put down fert. A month later, I sprayed air8 again. The zoysia was filling in nicely on one part but most of the strip was still bare and looked worse as the nomix died. I guess I really needed a lot more plugs. So, I went back to plugging. I watered the day before to help soften the ground. The next day, I went to start plugging and I put one foot on the plugger and was about to lift the other foot off the ground to jump on the plugger and it just sunk in. I couldn't believe it! I tried again and I put my 1 foot on the plugger and pushed a little and it again sunk down. Then, I went to the spot where I was pulling plugs from which I didn't spray air8 since I wasn't going to take care of that part of the lawn and the soil was rock hard. I had to jump hard on the plugger to get it to penetrate into the dirt. Back and forth for probably 150 plugs. The area I sprayed air8 had much better tilth also. The dirt was crumbly and more powdery. So, it is about 2-3" of dirt then orange clay which is really hard. When I finished, I was there the next day and it was pouring rain. Normally, the water puddles and then runs off into the street. Now, there was only a small puddle and the water wasn't sheeting off the dirt. That air8 really made a large difference. This was about 2 weeks ago so I don't have long term results to share unfortunately. I filmed the progression and intend to start my youtube channel so once I get that up, you can see the progression. I didn't film myself doing the plugs though. So, 2 apps of air8 made a big difference, at least for now. I imagine this would have to be repeated annually just like doing a core aeration but perhaps, with the addition of all that humic, it might just become a better soil and won't need air8 or core aeration in the future.
> 
> As for deeper roots, I would imagine that would happen but at least, the roots would be able to grow through a looser soil and water would penetrate easier.
> 
> Regarding the kelp4less mix of humic/fulvic/kelp, I use the same ratio as RGS except the humic % is lower since I am assuming the mix is an even 1/3 of each product. I can't say I have seen any obvious differences though. I do use in in conjunction when I fert but I haven't done a control plot without the humates and only the fert so I don't have a comparison. The grass looks just fine and is thick and lush. I can't really say it is better now than last year when I wasn't using it. I got the kelp4less product because the GCF wasn't available to homeowners (small quantity) yet and no way was I buying a tote of it.
> 
> @g-man For your curiosity, if it helps. Regarding the PH, I didn't apply sulfur or lime. I'll retest it next spring to see where the ph is. I didn't apply AMS, only urea based and org ferts to this lawn. (Trying to use up leftover products/clearance products I picked up.) I tested the hose water ph and it is about 7, sometimes a hair under.
Click to expand...


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@XiolaOne I was referring to this. Their extreme blend contains N and other stuff. It also costs much more.


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## XiolaOne

Only $3 more for the 1 pound version but I can see the attraction of not having any N. What's your mixing rates that you use?


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## Suburban Jungle Life

I was using their mix of 8oz per gal for a concentrate and using that concentrate at 3floz/M. I can't seem to find their video anymore. I see their humic only video mixed at 2oz per quart so that is 8oz/gal for 6% concentration. If their blend of humic/fulvic/kelp is mixed in 1/3 ratio, then to get the same 6%, that would be 24oz/gal but I like to use 3% so that would be 12oz/gal concentrate to be used at 3oz/M or if you want to use it dry, 8 grams/M which is 0.28oz/M. I spray this each time I spread fertilizer.


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## XiolaOne

So 8oz of powder per 1 gallon of water to make the concentrate then 3floz of concentrate per gallon of water to go into the sprayer. What is /m?


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## Ridgerunner

Capital "M" is the Roman numeral for 1000. Used rather than "k" to eliminate any confusion as 'K" is the common symbol for Potassium. The Latin term for potassium is Kalium


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## samjonester

Ridgerunner said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Granular will give you more bang for your buck. Think pounds on the ground.
> 
> Liquid is easier to source, mix, and apply. That said, it is more expensive and even with the best products, you're paying for a jug that's +/- 88% water.
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup:
> 5 Gallons of 12% HA is 5.34 lbs of HA. @$100 or $18.72 a pound
> 5 Gallons of 8% content HA is 3.56 lbs of Ha @$105 or $29.49 a pound
> 40 lb bag of 70% HA is 28 lbs of HA @$42.99 or $1.54 a pound
> Want the 5% K too, add 4.5 lbs of potassium sulfate @$2.00 per pound
> Want the effects of high pH and K, add 3 lbs of KOH @$3.50 a pound.
> 
> I started a response to the issue of "liquid aeration," but I've responded to discussion of liquid compaction products (liquid aeration) numerous times before. So makes no sense to do it again, besides, I can't use liquid aeration due to my arse being allergic to smoke.
Click to expand...

@Ridgerunner what brand / product is the 40lb bag you are referencing?


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## Ridgerunner

> @Ridgerunner what brand / product is the 40lb bag you are referencing?


I used the product referenced above:


JDgreen18 said:


> https://www.gardenersedge.com/the-andersons-humic-dg-granular-soil-conditioner-humic-acid-40lb-bag/p/HUMDG/#customer_reviews
> 
> What about something like this???


My example was not intended as a product endorsement nor a recommendation of specific products that could be dissolved for spray application. That particular product is 70% HA, the other 30% is likely ash (impurities) that would/could create issues for spaying. I prefer to apply it as a granular as it's easier and more convenient to apply in larger quantities than can be done with sprays.
To my knowledge, there is no labeling requirements for Humic Substance products, not even much guidance from the IHSS. There's not even complete agreement of the meaning of HS terms. Years ago, I bought a bag labelled Humate, that stated that it contained humic substances including HA and FA. Turns out it was likely "unprocessed" brown coal (leonardite).


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## samjonester

Thanks, didn't realize that you were referencing that post when you did your breakdown.

How to with Doc endorses Andersons Humic DG as well.

[media]https://youtu.be/rHaxi9D9NQ4[/media]


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## craigdt

In my opinion, its cheaper to mix up your own brew and you will get a massive quantity of gallons out of it.
Also don't have to drop $105 on 5 gallons just to try it out.
You can also add/remove ingredients as you see fit, and adjust application rates/frequency if you want.
These ingredients are pretty tame and I don't think there is just one "right" recipe.

My ingredients:
*"Kelp Help":* Similar to N-Ext Rgs
Liquid Kelp Extract- 2 ounces. 
128oz- $25 @ eBay. Enough to make 64 gallons
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Organic-Fe...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Humic acid granules- 4 ounces
16oz- $17 @eBay. Enough to make 4 gallons
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydroponic...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Dissolve in 1 gallon warm water.

Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.

This works out to $4.65/gallon. 
You do have to provide the water and mix it yourself, however.
The Humic acid dissolves easily. 
The Kelp extract is disgusting, but cleans up super easily.

*"Soil Conditioner"* Similar to N-Ext Air8
Liquid Yucca Extract- 16 ounces
32oz- $25 @ Amazon. Enough to make 1 gallon. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BKQDSAG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Sodium Laureth Sulfate powder- 2 ounces. 
16oz- $22 @ Amazon. Enough to make 4 gallons. 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HSBPXOQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Dissolve in 1/2 gal warm water.

Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.

This works out to $15.25/gallon.
The sodium laureth sulfate powder kinda gums up into chunks, but shake/stir/mush and use hot water.


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## RandyMan

They have a product on amazon now.Its a granular.A guy I watch alot on youtube(How to with doc) has been using it..


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## CenlaLowell

craigdt said:


> In my opinion, its cheaper to mix up your own brew and you will get a massive quantity of gallons out of it.
> Also don't have to drop $105 on 5 gallons just to try it out.
> You can also add/remove ingredients as you see fit, and adjust application rates/frequency if you want.
> These ingredients are pretty tame and I don't think there is just one "right" recipe.
> 
> My ingredients:
> *"Kelp Help":* Similar to N-Ext Rgs
> Liquid Kelp Extract- 2 ounces.
> 128oz- $25 @ eBay. Enough to make 64 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Organic-Fe...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Humic acid granules- 4 ounces
> 16oz- $17 @eBay. Enough to make 4 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydroponic...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Dissolve in 1 gallon warm water.
> 
> Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.
> 
> This works out to $4.65/gallon.
> You do have to provide the water and mix it yourself, however.
> The Humic acid dissolves easily.
> The Kelp extract is disgusting, but cleans up super easily.
> 
> *"Soil Conditioner"* Similar to N-Ext Air8
> Liquid Yucca Extract- 16 ounces
> 32oz- $25 @ Amazon. Enough to make 1 gallon.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01BKQDSAG/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Sodium Laureth Sulfate powder- 2 ounces.
> 16oz- $22 @ Amazon. Enough to make 4 gallons.
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01HSBPXOQ/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> 
> Dissolve in 1/2 gal warm water.
> 
> Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.
> 
> This works out to $15.25/gallon.
> The sodium laureth sulfate powder kinda gums up into chunks, but shake/stir/mush and use hot water.


Nice I'm glad you posted this. Your soil conditioner is out of stock. Would this be a good replacement.

https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/yucca-extract/


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## probasestealer

Ridgerunner said:


> @Ridgerunner what brand / product is the 40lb bag you are referencing?
> 
> 
> 
> I used the product referenced above:
> 
> 
> JDgreen18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.gardenersedge.com/the-andersons-humic-dg-granular-soil-conditioner-humic-acid-40lb-bag/p/HUMDG/#customer_reviews
> 
> What about something like this???
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My example was not intended as a product endorsement nor a recommendation of specific products that could be dissolved for spray application. That particular product is 70% HA, the other 30% is likely ash (impurities) that would/could create issues for spaying. I prefer to apply it as a granular as it's easier and more convenient to apply in larger quantities than can be done with sprays.
> To my knowledge, there is no labeling requirements for Humic Substance products, not even much guidance from the IHSS. There's not even complete agreement of the meaning of HS terms. Years ago, I bought a bag labelled Humate, that stated that it contained humic substances including HA and FA. Turns out it was likely "unprocessed" brown coal (leonardite).
Click to expand...

@Ridgerunner I'm happy to hear you use the Anderson Humic DG, I've been thinking about trying it, although I've been reluctant due to shipping cost.
However, it looks like the application rate is max 200lbs (40-200lbs range) per acre (~43000 sq feet). So that would mean to an average lawn size of 5000sq feet you would only need to apply 23lbs at max rate. (200/43000 = .465%, so .00465*5000=23.2). You could easily cut the rate and use it for 2-8 apps. Is my math correct?


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## Ridgerunner

@probasestealer Sorry if I was unclear. I don't believe I've ever used Humic DG (prilled HA-but I'd rather I had used a prill). When I was applying HS regularly, I used a generic bag product (could have been from Andersons as most of the the generics I get are from the companies here in Ohio, but who knows) from a very trusted source. It was not prilled, so very, very dirty to apply. All of the research I've read that show positive results are in the range of 10 ppm to 500 ppm (.45 to 23 lbs per thousand square feet.) I applied it at 8lbs/M per year. For two years. So 16#/M total. No control plot and I was in high gear on maintenance so I can't say if it did anything but it certainly didn't hurt.


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## probasestealer

Ridgerunner said:


> @probasestealer Sorry if I was unclear. I don't believe I've ever used Humic DG (prilled HA-but I'd rather I had used a prill). When I was applying HS regularly, I used a generic bag product (could have been from Andersons as most of the the generics I get are from the companies here in Ohio, but who knows) from a very trusted source. It was not prilled, so very, very dirty to apply. All of the research I've read that show positive results are in the range of 10 ppm to 500 ppm (.45 to 23 lbs per thousand square feet.) I applied it at 8lbs/M per year. For two years. So 16#/M total. No control plot and I was in high gear on maintenance so I can't say if it did anything but it certainly didn't hurt.


Thanks for the response. I rarely have a control, as I want MAX improvement. Although last year I did topdress the backyard, but not the front with compost. Huge difference in the soil (turf color, quality, spread and I can insert a screw driver easily) of the backyard vs frontyard this year. But dressing with compost is very labor and time consuming.


----------



## XiolaOne

I am curious to the drastic differences in the amount of Humic acid used in various products. Yours calls for 4oz of 80% Humic acid to make 1 gallon of concentrate while a product like The Anderson's Humic DG at 75% states to use 1-2 pounds per 1M. The difference is huge.

What am I missing?



craigdt said:


> My ingredients:
> *"Kelp Help":* Similar to N-Ext Rgs
> Liquid Kelp Extract- 2 ounces.
> 128oz- $25 @ eBay. Enough to make 64 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Organic-Fe...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Humic acid granules- 4 ounces
> 16oz- $17 @eBay. Enough to make 4 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydroponic...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Dissolve in 1 gallon warm water.
> 
> Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.
> 
> This works out to $4.65/gallon.
> You do have to provide the water and mix it yourself, however.
> The Humic acid dissolves easily.
> The Kelp extract is disgusting, but cleans up super easily.


----------



## craigdt

XiolaOne said:


> I am curious to the drastic differences in the amount of Humic acid used in various products. Yours calls for 4oz of 80% Humic acid to make 1 gallon of concentrate while a product like The Anderson's Humic DG at 75% states to use 1-2 pounds per 1M. The difference is huge.
> 
> What am I missing?
> 
> 
> 
> craigdt said:
> 
> 
> 
> My ingredients:
> *"Kelp Help":* Similar to N-Ext Rgs
> Liquid Kelp Extract- 2 ounces.
> 128oz- $25 @ eBay. Enough to make 64 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Organic-Fe...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Humic acid granules- 4 ounces
> 16oz- $17 @eBay. Enough to make 4 gallons
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Hydroponic...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> Dissolve in 1 gallon warm water.
> 
> Use @ 2 oz per 1K sq ft.
> 
> This works out to $4.65/gallon.
> You do have to provide the water and mix it yourself, however.
> The Humic acid dissolves easily.
> The Kelp extract is disgusting, but cleans up super easily.
Click to expand...

Sorry that I can't be of more help, but I'm just not familiar with the Andersons product. Seems like it could get pretty expensive.

But maybe someone with more knowledge and experience could weigh in.

Im just a guy who mixed up a couple jugs of liquid after reading similar recipes a couple different places.

I will say that it appears to have helped drastically in one area of my yard that has notoriously poor soil.

Im also not trying to sell anything. It would be great if we could get some real side by side testing of all these products! That would be a fun project. If anyone wants to do this and report back here, I'll send some of my liquid for testing.


----------



## XiolaOne

Just saw this and think I'll give it a try

https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/soluble-kelp-and-humic-blend/


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

XiolaOne said:


> Just saw this and think I'll give it a try
> 
> https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/soluble-kelp-and-humic-blend/


Wouldn't you also want the fulvic acid in that mix (here)?


----------



## XiolaOne

Yeap, thanks for the link :thumbup:



Suburban Jungle Life said:


> XiolaOne said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just saw this and think I'll give it a try
> 
> https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/soluble-kelp-and-humic-blend/
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't you also want the fulvic acid in that mix (here)?
Click to expand...


----------



## 7474

FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard


----------



## Green

7474 said:



> FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard


Saw that, and purchased earlier.


----------



## 7474

Green said:


> 7474 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard
> 
> 
> 
> Saw that, and purchased earlier.
Click to expand...

Have you used before?

I am sitting on the fence between the granular and the self-mix powder.

Thanks.


----------



## Green

7474 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 7474 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard
> 
> 
> 
> Saw that, and purchased earlier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have you used before?
> 
> I am sitting on the fence between the granular and the self-mix powder.
> 
> Thanks.
Click to expand...

No, first time user. I have the powder too and tried it a few days ago.


----------



## 7474

> No, first time user. I have the powder too and tried it a few days ago.


Which powder? Was looking at the kelp 4 less humic/fulvic/kelp blend.

Any problems mixing the powder?

Thanks


----------



## Spammage

7474 said:


> FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard


 :thumbup: thanks for posting!


----------



## 7474

Spammage said:


> 7474 said:
> 
> 
> 
> FYI, free shipping on the granular humic...ends in 1 hour at am leonard
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup: thanks for posting!
Click to expand...

No problem. Only have about 7 minutes to get the order in!!!


----------



## slomo

Granular or liquid humic acid, sure, here's my experience.

N-Ext products like Air 8, Humic 12 and RGS, you are paying mostly for water. A whopping 8% and 12% humic inside........ Super messy to mix, get into a spray apparatus then finally spraying it on your concrete. Stained/ruined clothing and shoes are or should be expected. Also very expensive for such minuscule active ingredients. Need gallons of product even for small lawns.

Granulars like The Anderson's Humic DG and Black Gypsum DG are so much easier to apply. Normal drop spreader is all. Zero mess unless you get it on the concrete which it easily washes away with water. The Humic DG has 70% humic and fulvic acids. Compare that to 8% and 12% as above. Funny thing is that it's much cheaper compared to the water based products. Large lawn people take notice. Easier to apply than liquids. Talking about winds and wind drift when spraying. On windy days when spraying, most of your "water product' floats away in the wind. No so with granulars. So yes there is a clear winner.

slomo


----------



## samjonester

How do you all compare a granular like Anderson's Humic DG to a powder like K4L's Extreme Blend?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I don't agree with @slomo that liquid is messy. No different than applying herbicide, fungicide, iron, etc. And, the benefit that they can all be mixed into 1 app. I can mix humates, kelp, iron, herbicide, fungicide, and Nitrogen. I can make 1 pass to apply all these products. Also, many of these products are more effective when foliarly absorbed. Also, being foliarly absorbed, you can use less too. Look at the pros. Are they all doing it wrong? I don't know any who don't spray. How is it messier than spreading fert? You pour your fert into a spreader vs pour the liquid into a measuring cup and then into your sprayer with water. I don't see how it's messy. Maybe you aren't comfortable spraying? I actually prefer it to granular. In tighter spaces where there are lots of curves, it's really hard to spread granular. I end up having to do it by hand so it doesn't get in the flower beds, sidewalks, and stays on the grass around trees too. A drop spreader would solve this but then I would need 2 spreaders.


----------



## slomo

samjonester said:


> How do you all compare a granular like Anderson's Humic DG to a powder like K4L's Extreme Blend?


I've never used a powder. One would guess it would be a ton messier again and lose a lot in the wind while filling the hopper and dropping. What is the humic percentage of it? I'm sure it's no where near 70% like Anderson's Humic DG is. That K4less product is also a 10-0-4 fert, possibly the majority of the product. To me it doesn't compare as a humic at all.

slomo


----------



## slomo

Just found this product. Impressive....

https://www.moopti.com/exigrow/

slomo


----------



## samjonester

slomo said:


> samjonester said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you all compare a granular like Anderson's Humic DG to a powder like K4L's Extreme Blend?
> 
> 
> 
> I've never used a powder. One would guess it would be a ton messier again and lose a lot in the wind while filling the hopper and dropping. What is the humic percentage of it? I'm sure it's no where near 70% like Anderson's Humic DG is. That K4less product is also a 10-0-4 fert, possibly the majority of the product. To me it doesn't compare as a humic at all.
> 
> slomo
Click to expand...

Well you tank mix or make your own concentrate with the powder, not spread it in powdered form. I imagine that little amount of nitrogen (a 1lb bag covers several thousand Sq Ft) would only have an effect if applied foliarly? That would be the ideal way to apply something like this, rather than as a soil app with granular, correct?


----------



## Ridgerunner

I believe the powder is intended to be dissolved for spay application, not spreading.
I think the choice between foliar or granular application comes down to what you want to achieve and how you want to get there. For example, short term feeding through the blade or long term through the root. The jury is still out as to the benefit of the plant absorbing and utilizing humic substances themselves, but it's generally accepted that humic substances provide a great repository for nutrients and good method for delivering nutrients.
Ever wonder if there is any advantage to a foliar application of ferric EDTA over foliar applied ferric sulfate? Is there an advantage to one over the other if they were applied directly to the soil?


----------



## slomo

Roger on the tank mix for that powder. I never checked that one out. If it's not 70% humic like The Anderson's Humic DG I'm not interested.

So it's the chicken or the egg. I vote for root feeding. That's where the water and most nutrients are consumed. Turf doesn't drink from the foliage does it? If it does what are the roots for?


----------



## slomo

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I don't agree with @slomo that liquid is messy. No different than applying herbicide, fungicide, iron, etc. And, the benefit that they can all be mixed into 1 app. I can mix humates, kelp, iron, herbicide, fungicide, and Nitrogen. I can make 1 pass to apply all these products. Also, many of these products are more effective when foliarly absorbed. Also, being foliarly absorbed, you can use less too. Look at the pros. Are they all doing it wrong? I don't know any who don't spray. How is it messier than spreading fert? You pour your fert into a spreader vs pour the liquid into a measuring cup and then into your sprayer with water. I don't see how it's messy. Maybe you aren't comfortable spraying? I actually prefer it to granular. In tighter spaces where there are lots of curves, it's really hard to spread granular. I end up having to do it by hand so it doesn't get in the flower beds, sidewalks, and stays on the grass around trees too. A drop spreader would solve this but then I would need 2 spreaders.


You like sprays, all good here. Was just commenting on all the mixing with a drill and mixing it some more and sloshing it into a 5 gallon bucket, mix that sludge some more then into a spray rig. Don't forget to shake it up. Then have the lid come off and dump all over you like I did. What an idiot LOL. Yes those N-ext products can be and are messy.

So small areas, I don't follow. You talking flower pots and vases?

slomo


----------



## slomo

samjonester said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> samjonester said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you all compare a granular like Anderson's Humic DG to a powder like K4L's Extreme Blend?
> 
> 
> 
> I've never used a powder. One would guess it would be a ton messier again and lose a lot in the wind while filling the hopper and dropping. What is the humic percentage of it? I'm sure it's no where near 70% like Anderson's Humic DG is. That K4less product is also a 10-0-4 fert, possibly the majority of the product. To me it doesn't compare as a humic at all.
> 
> slomo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well you tank mix or make your own concentrate with the powder, not spread it in powdered form. I imagine that little amount of nitrogen (a 1lb bag covers several thousand Sq Ft) would only have an effect if applied foliarly? That would be the ideal way to apply something like this, rather than as a soil app with granular, correct?
Click to expand...

A whole 1 pound bag? I use humic to try to break up my clay soil. Seems like you will need numerous gallons or more than one pound of granular to see any real improvements. I'm looking into some TNT for the clay LOL.

slomo


----------



## samjonester

slomo said:


> samjonester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> slomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've never used a powder. One would guess it would be a ton messier again and lose a lot in the wind while filling the hopper and dropping. What is the humic percentage of it? I'm sure it's no where near 70% like Anderson's Humic DG is. That K4less product is also a 10-0-4 fert, possibly the majority of the product. To me it doesn't compare as a humic at all.
> 
> slomo
> 
> 
> 
> Well you tank mix or make your own concentrate with the powder, not spread it in powdered form. I imagine that little amount of nitrogen (a 1lb bag covers several thousand Sq Ft) would only have an effect if applied foliarly? That would be the ideal way to apply something like this, rather than as a soil app with granular, correct?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A whole 1 pound bag? I use humic to try to break up my clay soil. Seems like you will need numerous gallons or more than one pound of granular to see any real improvements. I'm looking into some TNT for the clay LOL.
> 
> slomo
Click to expand...

How many pounds of dehydrated stuff do you think is in a gallon of RGS, which also covers several thousand sq ft? Regardless, it seems like the applications serve different purposes, and I'm looking to understand what those are and what problems they solve. One problem would be soil compaction or maybe lack of OM like you're looking to solve. I'm hoping others can chime in with the problems they've successfully addressed and what type of products have helped.


----------



## N LA Hacker

The powder that has been listed is 90% humic. So yes, it is at least 70%. No need to get all excited. Pump the brakes there, super chieftain.


----------



## slomo

N LA Hacker said:


> The powder that has been listed is 90% humic. So yes, it is at least 70%. No need to get all excited. Pump the brakes there, super chieftain.


Like I already mentioned, I never checked it out. Thanks for the comment though. 

slomo


----------



## slomo

samjonester said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> samjonester said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well you tank mix or make your own concentrate with the powder, not spread it in powdered form. I imagine that little amount of nitrogen (a 1lb bag covers several thousand Sq Ft) would only have an effect if applied foliarly? That would be the ideal way to apply something like this, rather than as a soil app with granular, correct?
> 
> 
> 
> A whole 1 pound bag? I use humic to try to break up my clay soil. Seems like you will need numerous gallons or more than one pound of granular to see any real improvements. I'm looking into some TNT for the clay LOL.
> 
> slomo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How many pounds of dehydrated stuff do you think is in a gallon of RGS, which also covers several thousand sq ft? Regardless, it seems like the applications serve different purposes, and I'm looking to understand what those are and what problems they solve. One problem would be soil compaction or maybe lack of OM like you're looking to solve. I'm hoping others can chime in with the problems they've successfully addressed and what type of products have helped.
Click to expand...

All great questions. RGS has a whopping 6% humic, 3% fulvic and 3% kelp. The other 88% if I were to guess would be water??. Don't know for sure. Max rate listed is 6oz per 1K SF then dilute with enough water to cover 1 acre. 1 gal is still 6% humic. I was about to break it all down but decided not to. All I know is I don't pay for water with little product (RGS, Air 8 and Humic 12).

slomo


----------



## numinor

AM Leonard is doing free shipping again this weekend (with promo code 8G18PW), and it looks like the Anderson Humic DG granular (40lb) is currently in stock. Should save you almost $30 on shipping.


----------



## Ridgerunner

May I ask why any of you are applying humic substances (HA and FA)?
What benefit are you expecting?


----------



## NewLawnJon

Ridgerunner said:


> May I ask why any of you are applying humic substances (HA and FA)?
> What benefit are you expecting?


I have hard clay soil so I apply it to help loosen the soil a bit for better water and nutrient infiltration as well as to help make the nutrients in the soil, and applied to be able to be taken into the root system of the turf.


----------



## Ridgerunner

> I have hard clay soil so I apply it to help loosen the soil a bit for better water and nutrient infiltration as well as to help make the nutrients in the soil, and applied to be able to be taken into the root system of the turf.


Fair enough. What characteristics does HA and FA possess that produces these benefits of loosening the soil and making nutrients more available to the turf roots. In other words, how does HA and FA do that? An analysis and understanding of the characteristics of HA and FA might clarify which manner and quantity of application is most likely to achieve the desired effect.
Some of the claims regarding Humic Substances are unsupported by studies, are illogical, and defy common sense, but they are great fodder for endless forum debate. Some characteristics have been validated by scientific processes and are known. Apply it for it's known capabilities.


----------



## NewLawnJon

Ridgerunner said:


> I have hard clay soil so I apply it to help loosen the soil a bit for better water and nutrient infiltration as well as to help make the nutrients in the soil, and applied to be able to be taken into the root system of the turf.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough. What characteristics does HA and FA possess that produces these benefits of loosening the soil and making nutrients more available to the turf roots. In other words, how does HA and FA do that? An analysis and understanding of the characteristics of HA and FA might clarify which manner and quantity of application is most likely to achieve the desired effect.
> Some of the claims regarding Humic Substances are unsupported by studies, are illogical, and defy common sense, but they are great fodder for endless forum debate. Some characteristics have been validated by scientific processes and are known. Apply it for it's known capabilities.
Click to expand...

From the limited scientific research I have seen is that humates are essentially super charged compost from millions of years ago that help with soil properties. I don't have a license to read the full article, but from https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ed078p1609 it seems like they just react with the soil to help plant growth as a whole.


----------



## slomo

numinor said:


> AM Leonard is doing free shipping again this weekend (with promo code 8G18PW), and it looks like the Anderson Humic DG granular (40lb) is currently in stock. Should save you almost $30 on shipping.


Great find my Tulsa neighbor. Anderson's soil god told me to use their Black Gypsum DG on hard clay Oklahoma red dirt. They said the Humic DG will work fine but a more specific product for ME, is the Black Gypsum DG. I want to break up clay soil. Black Gypsum DG has humic/fulvic acids and gypsum.

slomo


----------



## adgattoni

N LA Hacker said:


> The powder that has been listed is 90% humic. So yes, it is at least 70%. No need to get all excited. Pump the brakes there, super chieftain.


I think his concern is moreso: which is better, 90% of 1lb in liquid form OR 70% of 40lbs in granular form? Not just the %. Seems unless there are benefits to liquid application, you get more pounds on the ground with granular (for a lower price too).

Could be similar to liquid vs. granular fert. You dial way back on volume with liquid fert (i.e., 1lb applied as a liquid =/= 1lb granular in terms of effect). Perhaps granular takes a while to break down in the soil to actually get the pounds on the ground, whereas with liquid the effects are immediate? Just not sure how to compare apples to apples.


----------



## N LA Hacker

Well there both fruit, so there's a start.


----------



## NewLawnJon

adgattoni said:


> N LA Hacker said:
> 
> 
> 
> The powder that has been listed is 90% humic. So yes, it is at least 70%. No need to get all excited. Pump the brakes there, super chieftain.
> 
> 
> 
> I think his concern is moreso: which is better, 90% of 1lb in liquid form OR 70% of 40lbs in granular form? Not just the %. Seems unless there are benefits to liquid application, you get more pounds on the ground with granular (for a lower price too).
> 
> Could be similar to liquid vs. granular fert. You dial way back on volume with liquid fert (i.e., 1lb applied as a liquid =/= 1lb granular in terms of effect). Perhaps granular takes a while to break down in the soil to actually get the pounds on the ground, whereas with liquid the effects are immediate? Just not sure how to compare apples to apples.
Click to expand...

One thing I have seen is that most of the dry humates are hard to spread (similar to talcum powder) so mixing and spraying makes a lot of sense.

The Andersons seem to be one of the only dry humates that works well being spread as a granular. I think that next year when I do my fall N blitz I will try using their humic coated urea since a 50 lb bag is only like $4 more than normal urea.


----------



## greengrass

I've tried the Anderson DG and it was similar to spreading milorganite. I think they have a patent on the product so that the granules break up in micro particles after watered in. Pretty pricey though.


----------



## adgattoni

greengrass said:


> I've tried the Anderson DG and it was similar to spreading milorganite. I think they have a patent on the product so that the granules break up in micro particles after watered in. Pretty pricey though.


I dunno - seems to be the cheapest per pound of humic:


----------



## ryeguy

Has John Perry ever elaborated on why HA is better in liquid form than powdered? He's glossed over it in a couple of his videos but I haven't heard any specific reasons.

I get that powdered is less "natural" in that it's originally a liquid which is then turned into a powder which we then use by turning it back into a liquid, but I'm curious if there's any practical reason we should care about that.


----------



## Drewmey

adgattoni said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried the Anderson DG and it was similar to spreading milorganite. I think they have a patent on the product so that the granules break up in micro particles after watered in. Pretty pricey though.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno - seems to be the cheapest per pound of humic:
Click to expand...

They have different applications so pounds of product is actually meaningless. For example, if you switch to a liquid fertilizer application, would you apply the same weight of nitrogen? Lord I hope not. Foliar application is just more efficient so you need to compare them in a much different way. Depending on what your goal/purpose is, you might be wasting tons of pounds of humic by throwing it on the ground in granular form. I think you need to compare cost /frequency requirements based on needed application rates. I think a better approach would be to use both personally.

Now if the Anderson product was 100% soluble, that would be a different story. But from the videos I've seen, it needs quite a bit of straining even after aggressive agitation.

Also kelp4less is really expensive for humic. Check this one out which is like half the cost. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/262986360258


----------



## ryeguy

Is the above true if they're meant to be soil apps? Humic12 and RGS both mandate either a 20:1 dilution rate or to be watered in, which I assume means it's meant to wash down to the soil level. It is also sold as a "soil optimization" product so that makes sense.


----------



## Drewmey

ryeguy said:


> Is the above true if they're meant to be soil apps? Humic12 and RGS both mandate either a 20:1 dilution rate or to be watered in, which I assume means it's meant to wash down to the soil level. It is also sold as a "soil optimization" product so that makes sense.


I'll let some others comment on whether I have been mislead or misunderstand. But I wanted to note that a 20:1 ratio implies that you can put 6 oz. in 1 gallon of water (128 oz.) and spray without watering in. In other words 1 gallon spread over 1, 000sf. Seems like very little would reach the soil unless you did water it in more.

I never water it in unless it is really hot outside but maybe I'm doing it wrong :lol: I even spray with just a backpack sprayer.


----------



## ksturfguy

Drewmey said:


> ryeguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the above true if they're meant to be soil apps? Humic12 and RGS both mandate either a 20:1 dilution rate or to be watered in, which I assume means it's meant to wash down to the soil level. It is also sold as a "soil optimization" product so that makes sense.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll let some others comment on whether I have been mislead or misunderstand. But I wanted to note that a 20:1 ratio implies that you can put 6 oz. in 1 gallon of water (128 oz.) and spray without watering in. In other words 1 gallon spread over 1, 000sf. Seems like very little would reach the soil unless you did water it in more.
> 
> I never water it in unless it is really hot outside but maybe I'm doing it wrong :lol: I even spray with just a backpack sprayer.
Click to expand...

By what they say then your probably good. Take my word worth a grain of salt because this is my first year using the products but I think it probably a little better to water it in especially when using a backpack. I think if you use an Ortho Hose end sprayer you should be good. I sprayed at closer to a 12 to 1 ratio yesterday using my backpack and just watered it in for about 10 minutes.


----------



## Drewmey

ksturfguy said:


> By what they say then your probably good. Take my word worth a grain of salt because this is my first year using the products but I think it probably a little better to water it in especially when using a backpack. I think if you use an Ortho Hose end sprayer you should be good. I sprayed at closer to a 12 to 1 ratio yesterday using my backpack and just watered it in for about 10 minutes.


So in other words, you think there is no possibility of foliar absorption occurring?


----------



## ksturfguy

Drewmey said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> By what they say then your probably good. Take my word worth a grain of salt because this is my first year using the products but I think it probably a little better to water it in especially when using a backpack. I think if you use an Ortho Hose end sprayer you should be good. I sprayed at closer to a 12 to 1 ratio yesterday using my backpack and just watered it in for about 10 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> So in other words, you think there is no possibility of foliar absorption occurring?
Click to expand...

Well it depends what product your applying but with products like Humic-12 and Air-8 to me those are soil improvement products which tells me they probably aren't designed for foliar absorption. They need to actually get down to the soil. RGS and some of their liquid fert products might be different. I'm sure there someone a lot smarter than me on here that can answer that though.

This is from their website: _"If a hose end sprayer is used with a setting that allows for a 20-1 dilution with water of each product there is no need to water the application in. If you must use a dilution rate that is less than 20-1 or if there is uncertainty about your actual dilution rate, the application(s) should be watered in for 5-15 minutes."_

Doesn't mention anything about a backpack sprayer and 20 to 1 just hose end sprayer so to me best to water it in.


----------



## adgattoni

Drewmey said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried the Anderson DG and it was similar to spreading milorganite. I think they have a patent on the product so that the granules break up in micro particles after watered in. Pretty pricey though.
> 
> 
> 
> I dunno - seems to be the cheapest per pound of humic:
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They have different applications so pounds of product is actually meaningless. For example, if you switch to a liquid fertilizer application, would you apply the same weight of nitrogen? Lord I hope not. Foliar application is just more efficient so you need to compare them in a much different way. Depending on what your goal/purpose is, you might be wasting tons of pounds of humic by throwing it on the ground in granular form. I think you need to compare cost /frequency requirements based on needed application rates. I think a better approach would be to use both personally.
> 
> Now if the Anderson product was 100% soluble, that would be a different story. But from the videos I've seen, it needs quite a bit of straining even after aggressive agitation.
> 
> Also kelp4less is really expensive for humic. Check this one out which is like half the cost. https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.com/ulk/itm/262986360258
Click to expand...

This is the entire point of this thread: has anyone other than a manufacturer provided evidence that liquid humic is better than granular? "But foliar absorption is better..." is a generality that may not even apply with these products. I've found studies that show increased uptake of foliar applied nutrients when humic is included in the tank mix, but that is to be expected because humic acid is a nutrient chelator (makes nutrients more available to plants). It isn't itself a nutrient, so I can't understand why humic getting absorbed into the plant (is humic acid even used within the plant?) is better than getting it into the soil where it can chelate nutrients and make them available to plant roots.


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## samjonester

ryeguy said:


> Has John Perry ever elaborated on why HA is better in liquid form than powdered?


I'm fairly sure he's said that his products were designed to remain in solution for easy, budget friendly applications by pros.

The goals may also be different. Granular _may_ also improve soil in addition to root cycling. Both bind to nutrients for better use by the plant.


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## Guest

I like the idea of throwing down Andersons DG with gypsum.

I aerated in September and have been watering properly, yet hard as a brick clay soil. Parts of my backyard have large cracks in the soil.

I feel like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall here, but my gut says some light top dressing, humic/gypsum apps.

A local store sells a soil conditioner called calcined clay I may also try.

Might use carbon x in the fall. Figure that should help the soil a little as well. Trying to stick with all granular products.


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## Drewmey

adgattoni said:


> This is the entire point of this thread: has anyone other than a manufacturer provided evidence that liquid humic is better than granular? "But foliar absorption is better..." is a generality that may not even apply with these products. I've found studies that show increased uptake of foliar applied nutrients when humic is included in the tank mix, but that is to be expected because humic acid is a nutrient chelator (makes nutrients more available to plants). It isn't itself a nutrient, so I can't understand why humic getting absorbed into the plant (is humic acid even used within the plant?) is better than getting it into the soil where it can chelate nutrients and make them available to plant roots.


Ha I wasn't trying to say that foliar applications were 'always better', just saying (when being used directly by the plant) foliar applications are way more efficient....and therefore one can not simply price pound vs. pound. But I totally see your point about whether or not humic is actually "being used" by the plant, as it is not a nutrient.

However, I am usually spraying a humic/fulvic/kelp blend...and kelp is used by the plant. I typically see kelp suggested as a foliar spray instead of a 'spray to the roots' type of application when reading about liquid kelp or soluble kelp. I also plan to spray this same blend on the same day I spray FAS and even possibly combine (or spray back to back) with herbicides/fungicides this year.

If applying nothing else, I think watering in could be the way to go though. That's kind of why I was saying I think a better approach is to use both in your routine if you can justify, afford to.


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## Cav1

Interesting thread.

I was a retailer/distributor of humic and fulvic products for 12 years. We sold 12% liquid HA, HA dry DG product, and fulvic acid products. We were trained that our 70% HA DG lasted longer in the soil but took time to break down. The 12% liquid HA was immediately available but did not last as long. Both products required many years of continuous use. Humic acids naturally have fulvic acids plus other things in them. The fulvic acids penetrate the leaf area and are easily absorbed. I used the fulvics to help pull foliage applied nutrients into the plant. I don't have scientific data to prove this. I found upon retirement that some of the marketing b.s. we were exposed to wasn't always true. As I watch my own yard, I am becoming a little more of a skeptic of everything.

I have been using GCF products for about a year now. When I have tried the "double green" approach as mentioned by LCN, I see almost nil results and scratch my head. I ran test strips last summer with 2 separate apps of Milo and Lawn Restore and another organic product. The Lawn Restore did show me results. I did see great results using HyRbrix this spring thanks to Pete Denny's channel. I have not tried Carbon X and will wait until they get all the production kinks worked out.

I will say that my TTTF lawn is pretty thick but I just can't seem to get the color I want. I know I can get the color because of this spring and also how green things are under the bird feeder (lol) all season.

Going forward I am going to take a Soil Savvy test in my backyard and one under the bird feeder. I am really curious about the differences. Next I am going to try and test Humic DG 70% vs. Humic 12. I will soil test these 2 strips through my local lab before applying my test strips. The difference between Soil Savvy and Waypoint Analytical will be interesting.

I want to see if over the next few years if my CEC is going up plus my soil nutrients and which product is doing the job. I know iron is not the total answer but think it is a combination of N and iron in the summer not being available enough for the thick turf.


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## smurg

Cav1 said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> I was a retailer/distributor of humic and fulvic products for 12 years. We sold 12% liquid HA, HA dry DG product, and fulvic acid products. We were trained that our 70% HA DG lasted longer in the soil but took time to break down. The 12% liquid HA was immediately available but did not last as long. Both products required many years of continuous use. Humic acids naturally have fulvic acids plus other things in them. The fulvic acids penetrate the leaf area and are easily absorbed. I used the fulvics to help pull foliage applied nutrients into the plant. I don't have scientific data to prove this. I found upon retirement that some of the marketing b.s. we were exposed to wasn't always true. As I watch my own yard, I am becoming a little more of a skeptic of everything.
> 
> I have been using GCF products for about a year now. When I have tried the "double green" approach as mentioned by LCN, I see almost nil results and scratch my head. I ran test strips last summer with 2 separate apps of Milo and Lawn Restore and another organic product. The Lawn Restore did show me results. I did see great results using HyRbrix this spring thanks to Pete Denny's channel. I have not tried Carbon X and will wait until they get all the production kinks worked out.
> 
> I will say that my TTTF lawn is pretty thick but I just can't seem to get the color I want. I know I can get the color because of this spring and also how green things are under the bird feeder (lol) all season.
> 
> Going forward I am going to take a Soil Savvy test in my backyard and one under the bird feeder. I am really curious about the differences. Next I am going to try and test Humic DG 70% vs. Humic 12. I will soil test these 2 strips through my local lab before applying my test strips. The difference between Soil Savvy and Waypoint Analytical will be interesting.
> 
> I want to see if over the next few years if my CEC is going up plus my soil nutrients and which product is doing the job. I know iron is not the total answer but think it is a combination of N and iron in the summer not being available enough for the thick turf.


I'd advise against Soil Savvy and use Waypoint/Logan Labs or a local county extension office.


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## Cav1

I am curious as to why? I will be using both Waypoint and Soil Savvy dividing up the same sample to get a better comparison. I am trying to figure out what is truly available vs. what is tied up, i.e my iron is way off the charts but appears not to be available.


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## Drewmey

Cav1 said:


> I am curious as to why? I will be using both Waypoint and Soil Savvy dividing up the same sample to get a better comparison. I am trying to figure out what is truly available vs. what is tied up, i.e my iron is way off the charts but appears not to be available.


If you tested already to see that your iron was sufficient, did the test results point on pH? Typically high pH is the problem.


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## Cav1

Low pH actually. I have added a more soluble calcitic lime from Southern States which was 10 lbs/k. The pH was around 5.5.


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## Methodical

macdawg said:


> I like the idea of throwing down Andersons DG with gypsum.
> 
> I aerated in September and have been watering properly, yet hard as a brick clay soil. Parts of my backyard have large cracks in the soil.
> 
> I feel like I'm throwing spaghetti at the wall here, but my gut says some light top dressing, humic/gypsum apps.
> 
> A local store sells a soil conditioner called calcined clay I may also try.
> 
> Might use carbon x in the fall. Figure that should help the soil a little as well. Trying to stick with all granular products.


Remember, it's a marathon, not a sprint.


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## adgattoni

*Humic test plot update*:

Disclaimers: In fairness to Matt, I suspended the Carbon-X test for part of the season to work on a phosphorus deficiency. Also, the GCF products had a one month head start on K4L's Extreme Blend.

Root pictures below. Most of these had more root mass than pictured, but the soil was pretty sticky so some root mass came off in the wash unfortunately. I would say each of these had _some_ roots in the 4"+ depth despite the terrible soil. The Air-8 sample was easier to clean than the others due to noticeably better soil tilth (not crumbly infield clay, but better than the others), which IMO lead to more intact root mass for the picture. If that continues through next year, I will conclude Air-8 is worth my money for the soil tilth improvements. Anecdotally I'm happy with the Air-8 results, though I still don't know how the science holds up.

The cores were all pretty easy to pull, but we've had a good bit of rain lately too. There's still no difference in visual appearance across the test plots (this has been true throughout the season - not due to the recent rainfall). The next tests will be fall/winter color and spring green-up. Will provide a picture closer to dormancy.


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## bmitch05

@LawnCareNut Look at those roots John Perry.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

adgattoni said:


> *Humic test plot update*:
> 
> Disclaimers: In fairness to Matt, I suspended the Carbon-X test for part of the season to work on a phosphorus deficiency. Also, the GCF products had a one month head start on K4L's Extreme Blend.
> 
> Root pictures below. Most of these had more root mass than pictured, but the soil was pretty sticky so some root mass came off in the wash unfortunately. I would say each of these had _some_ roots in the 4"+ depth despite the terrible soil. The Air-8 sample was easier to clean than the others due to noticeably better soil tilth (not crumbly infield clay, but better than the others), which IMO lead to more intact root mass for the picture. If that continues through next year, I will conclude Air-8 is worth my money for the soil tilth improvements. Anecdotally I'm happy with the Air-8 results, though I still don't know how the science holds up.
> 
> The cores were all pretty easy to pull, but we've had a good bit of rain lately too. There's still no difference in visual appearance across the test plots (this has been true throughout the season - not due to the recent rainfall). The next tests will be fall/winter color and spring green-up. Will provide a picture closer to dormancy.


I'm curious what's your rate per 1k of the Air8 and how long have you been using it?

I have a few areas in my lawn with poor drainage.


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## adgattoni

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Humic test plot update*:
> 
> Disclaimers: In fairness to Matt, I suspended the Carbon-X test for part of the season to work on a phosphorus deficiency. Also, the GCF products had a one month head start on K4L's Extreme Blend.
> 
> Root pictures below. Most of these had more root mass than pictured, but the soil was pretty sticky so some root mass came off in the wash unfortunately. I would say each of these had _some_ roots in the 4"+ depth despite the terrible soil. The Air-8 sample was easier to clean than the others due to noticeably better soil tilth (not crumbly infield clay, but better than the others), which IMO lead to more intact root mass for the picture. If that continues through next year, I will conclude Air-8 is worth my money for the soil tilth improvements. Anecdotally I'm happy with the Air-8 results, though I still don't know how the science holds up.
> 
> The cores were all pretty easy to pull, but we've had a good bit of rain lately too. There's still no difference in visual appearance across the test plots (this has been true throughout the season - not due to the recent rainfall). The next tests will be fall/winter color and spring green-up. Will provide a picture closer to dormancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious what's your rate per 1k of the Air8 and how long have you been using it?
> 
> I have a few areas in my lawn with poor drainage.
Click to expand...

The test plots are 10' by 10' (100 sq ft). Over those areas I've been squirting about 2oz of each product tested (above label rates). I started the testing late this spring and applied monthly til September.


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## bmitch05

I have considered testing this theory myself next season, I've been using Humic12 this year with Air8 and plan to pull cores in the spring to measure the root depth. I have recently purchased a bag of Humic DG and BioPro Enviroplex 22% liquid hume form my local Site One. I renovated an area of my side lawn this fall and will split the 500sqft area in half and compare the root mass.

Enviroplex is new to me so I will be learning on the fly.


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## Haywood74

adgattoni said:


> *Humic test plot update*:
> 
> Disclaimers: In fairness to Matt, I suspended the Carbon-X test for part of the season to work on a phosphorus deficiency. Also, the GCF products had a one month head start on K4L's Extreme Blend.
> 
> Root pictures below. Most of these had more root mass than pictured, but the soil was pretty sticky so some root mass came off in the wash unfortunately. I would say each of these had _some_ roots in the 4"+ depth despite the terrible soil. The Air-8 sample was easier to clean than the others due to noticeably better soil tilth (not crumbly infield clay, but better than the others), which IMO lead to more intact root mass for the picture. If that continues through next year, I will conclude Air-8 is worth my money for the soil tilth improvements. Anecdotally I'm happy with the Air-8 results, though I still don't know how the science holds up.
> 
> The cores were all pretty easy to pull, but we've had a good bit of rain lately too. There's still no difference in visual appearance across the test plots (this has been true throughout the season - not due to the recent rainfall). The next tests will be fall/winter color and spring green-up. Will provide a picture closer to dormancy.


I don't suppose you did any sections that utilized combos of these products, did you? I used an Air8/Rgs and Humic DG granular combo on some of my newly reno'ed lawn and it seemed to REALLY help out compared to other areas of my lawn. No root photos here, though.


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## adgattoni

Haywood74 said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Humic test plot update*:
> 
> Disclaimers: In fairness to Matt, I suspended the Carbon-X test for part of the season to work on a phosphorus deficiency. Also, the GCF products had a one month head start on K4L's Extreme Blend.
> 
> Root pictures below. Most of these had more root mass than pictured, but the soil was pretty sticky so some root mass came off in the wash unfortunately. I would say each of these had _some_ roots in the 4"+ depth despite the terrible soil. The Air-8 sample was easier to clean than the others due to noticeably better soil tilth (not crumbly infield clay, but better than the others), which IMO lead to more intact root mass for the picture. If that continues through next year, I will conclude Air-8 is worth my money for the soil tilth improvements. Anecdotally I'm happy with the Air-8 results, though I still don't know how the science holds up.
> 
> The cores were all pretty easy to pull, but we've had a good bit of rain lately too. There's still no difference in visual appearance across the test plots (this has been true throughout the season - not due to the recent rainfall).  The next tests will be fall/winter color and spring green-up. Will provide a picture closer to dormancy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't suppose you did any sections that utilized combos of these products, did you? I used an Air8/Rgs and Humic DG granular combo on some of my newly reno'ed lawn and it seemed to REALLY help out compared to other areas of my lawn. No root photos here, though.
Click to expand...

I haven't. I'll have to measure out how much product I have left and see if I can squeeze in a combo plot next year. I know I have enough Humic DG, we'll see about the RGS/Air8.


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## Methodical

For those of you in cooler/colder climates who spray liquid Humic acid, RGS etc., when is your typical last application?


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## TroyScherer

Methodical said:


> For those of you in cooler/colder climates who spray liquid Humic acid, RGS etc., when is your typical last application?



My last application of RGS was Mid-Late October.

My last liquid Humic acid went down early November.


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## Methodical

Thanks^^^^^. I just did my last application on the 14th along with applying the last round of 46-0-0 and I was just curious.


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## daniel3507

I've always heard really good things about Kelp4Less Extreme Blend so seeing the results from @adgattoni's test is a little surprising. I'm also surprised at the Air-8 and RGS results.


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## bmitch05

I had a chance to chat with an Agronomist about the great Liquid V. Dry Humic debate. What I learned in that conversation is that the dry materials contain the raw sources of the humates and leonardite in higher concentrations but at times may not always be as available. The liquids are created by treating the raw ore or raw humates with alkaline materials (potassium hydroxide) which extracts the humic acid out of the ore and into the solution and allows the humates to be available to use right away. It is common to see a 12%-18% content in most liquid products. BioPro in this case has managed to get their concentration up to 22%. I'm told there is a ceiling to how much of the humates the liquid solutions can actually hold in the water but tend to be much for active and available much faster than the dry humates that contain higher rates.

I'm not sure if the same concept applies to those that are buying the soluble humates from Kelp4less and mixing them on their own vs. buying the liquids off the shelf. I am certainly no turf scientist, just a homeowner with a lawn addiction but this was valuable information for me and I hope it helps in some way.

My local SiteOne has the BioPro 22% humic available, I plan on purchasing some myself and see how it compares to GCF Humic 12.


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