# Getting started advice needed - First post



## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Hello!

I joined this forum because after my first failed attempt last year to get a nice green lawn, I want to use the upcoming season to do it right.

I have a relatively small backyard that I'd like to focus on. Our front yard is dominated by a giant tree and I'm told that if I want a front lawn, I'll need to remove it. Nah. Not this year.

The back yard is hard, Colorado dirt (I can't really call it soil) with an abundance of thorny weeds that when they come up, it almost looks like a green lawn. Last year I tried pulling and spent an entire day doing this. Ultimately, I didn't get down the roots enough, and it all just came back. I also tried seeding and didn't see any new grass as far as I can tell.

This year I want to sod the back yard.

Right now, I'm faced with getting all the weeds out. They haven't yet emerged.

I don't wish to use RoundUp. So I figure I need to run a tiller through my yard, and just dig out the top of the dirt and get rid of it, replace with some kind of fresh new top soil.

Wondering if anyone has any tips to share. Hoping for a successful lawn this year!

Thanks,
Mark


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@LaffyCaffi , Welcome!

It's always super frustrating to not see results from weed control and/or seeding.

Tilling the dirt up is a risky issue because it can bring up (thousands? Millions???) weed seeds. Even if you remove the dirt I would imagine you'd have to take out (and replace) an insane amount to effectively control weeds.

There are plenty of options to help that don't include roundup. For instance, before you lay your sod (or just after) you can apply Anderson's starter fertilizer with Mesotrione. It has both pre and post emergent qualities... so it can kill the visible weeds and prevent new ones (for a short time). I'm not endorsing Seed super store but they sell it online and you can view the link for more information. There are other vendors out there.

https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100116/andersons-starter-fertilizer-with-mesotrione-tenacity

Another option for a small yard is solarization.. although that does take some time.

Finally, sodding will naturally choke out most weeds as long as you apply post emergents as per the cool season lawn guide.

Good luck and post pictures on the results!


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Welcome to TLF. I am sure you will be able to have a great lawn soon.

Can you post a few pictures of the weed, if you have any?

Do you have any grass at all?

Have you ever done a soil test?

Spending a lot of money on sod on poor soil with weeds without any preparation doesn't sound like a very solid plan.

Have you ever tried putting a pre-emergent down like prodiamine or dithiopyr?

Also, if you havent try reading the cool season lawn guide. It's a great resource!


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Day 1: raking out leaves, rocks and random crap that has accumulated over the winter. Need to get the left side and under the trampoline, still.

After I bag the leaves, trying to determine step 2: is it too early in Colorado to lay the top soil? Or should I lay down the pre emergent per the precious post? Or is pre-emergent a type of top soil? Any recommendations?

Thank you.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

uts said:


> Welcome to TLF. I am sure you will be able to have a great lawn soon.
> 
> Can you post a few pictures of the weed, if you have any?
> 
> ...


Having a solid plan: that's why I decided to join this forum. I don't know much about lan care... yet.

See my other post for a photo. I don't have any photos of the weeds, they're not sprouted yet. I was thinking of adding pre-emergent next weekend. I assume I can get this at Home Depot. Any brand recommendations? Based off of my photo, about how much of it do you think I'll need?

There is a decent patch of grass that came up the past two years. You can kind of see it on the right portion of the photo.

Thank you!


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

With most pre emergents you can't seed after you use them....the pre-em keeps the seeds from germinating. For cool session like like yours, you'd want to go with the above recommended mesotrione. The brand name is called "Tenacity". On the surface it looks expensive but you only use a little bit at a time. A bottle of Tenacity will last you a LONG time. For only 1500 sq ft, it'll last you for years.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Gilley11 said:


> With most pre emergents you can't seed after you use them....the pre-em keeps the seeds from germinating


I'm thinking about just laying new sod. Can I use pre emergent. Then cover with a compost or top soil, then sod?


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@LaffyCaffi , thanks for the picture, it looks like you've got off to a great start. If I was you this is exactly what I would do over the course of 3-5 days:

1. Core aerate and remove the cores. (Day 0)

(You can rent a core aerator, raking the cores is usually easiest with a plastic leaf rake.... also make sure to water lightly for 2-3 days before aeration , you want the soil moist, not wet or dry)

2. Bring in 100% sand or an 80/20 sand/soil mix. The danger with adding topsoil is you don't know where it's from and you could be introducing billions of weed seeds to your yard. (Day 1-2)

(Generally you need 1 ton of sand per 1000 sqft of yard. If you aerate and remove the cores that number goes up to 1.2ish. Also, 1 ton *almost* equals one cubic yard so don't get confused if it's sold either way)

3. Spread said sand (or mixture) evenly over your yard trying to get as smooth and level as possible. (Day 2-4)

4. Apply Anderson's starter fertilizer with mesotrione at the label rate, to the dirt. (Day 5)

5. Lay sod. Pay particular attention to how the sod fits together. If it's not exactly snug weeds can come up through the gaps in between. (Day 5)

6. Water pretty well (15-20 minutes, 3 x a day (but never after 3-4pm)) for 2 weeks or until the sod has rooted into the native soil. You can test by gently pulling on the grass. It will either come up off the ground like a piece of sod or it will stick to the ground like turf.

7. Apply another round of the Anderson's starter with mesotrione about 5-6 weeks after your first application.

8. Follow everything in the cool season lawn guide.

FOOTNOTES: 
Don't use any preemergent except mesotrione/tenacity as the others will negatively effect your sod.

You don't need too worry too too much about the quality of soil. If weeds can grow in it grass should also be able to. Recommend getting a soil test done so you know if you're wildly off in any nutrients.

Sand is fine instead of rich soil because:
1: No weeds
2: better drainage/ easier to level
3: your turfs rootmass lifecycle will give your soil plenty of organic matter.

If your still concerned just make sure you leave your clippings on the lawn after mowing. You can use organic fertilizer like milorganite or my favorite, CRACKED CORN.

Finally you can add humic or fulvic acid to increase the richness of the dirt. There are plenty of liquid and granular products on Amazon.

Keep posting any questions and people will keep responding! Good luck.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Wow! This is amazing. thank you!

I'll look for the cool season guide.

Thanks again!



CrackedCornCrack said:


> @LaffyCaffi , thanks for the picture, it looks like you've got off to a great start. If I was you this is exactly what I would do over the course of 3-5 days:
> 
> 1. Core aerate and remove the cores. (Day 0)
> 
> ...


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

So... due to the coronavirus mess, I have had to put this on hold. But now I'm about ready to get after it again. However now the weeds are sprouting. Any changes to this course of action?



CrackedCornCrack said:


> @LaffyCaffi , thanks for the picture, it looks like you've got off to a great start. If I was you this is exactly what I would do over the course of 3-5 days:
> 
> 1. Core aerate and remove the cores. (Day 0)
> 
> ...


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@LaffyCaffi , nope, the fertilizer with tenacity will take care of most of them.


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

Also, what type of sod are you going to get?


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I was thinking Kentucky bluegrass


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

CrackedCornCrack said:


> @LaffyCaffi , nope, the fertilizer with tenacity will take care of most of them.


So Im getting a lot of opinions from some of my neighbors. I figure anyone on a forum dedicated to lawn care, know more than the average joe neighbor. Here's the skinny on my block:

Neighbor A: "You have a TON of crabgrass. Unless you kill it all with Roundup, it is going to take over your lawn, even if you till up your whole yard'. Spray the entire yard with roundup.

Neighbor B: "DO NOT use Roundup. You have kids and a dog. That is some REALLY bad stuff. Wait until the fall, cover your yard with plastic, and next spring, everything will be dead."

Neighbor C: "You need to get a tractor in there and just dig off the top 4 inches of your entire yard, add new soil, then lay sod."

Thelawnforum: "Aerate your yard, add sand, pre-emergent, lay sod."

Looking for additional insight. I favor Neighbor A's advice because I want these weeds dead and it's more affordable than taking a tractor to it. But I'm scared of the stuff.

Thoughts?


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

So, tenacity, or Mesotrione, will help kill existing weeds and prevent them from coming up.

You are now moving towards the "too late" phase for Bluegrass. Of course, you can lay sod anytime, but ideally you'd give it enough time to develop Deep roots before summer.

Post a picture of your current lawn please. If you have a ton of weeds and are not going to put a smothering amount of soil or sand on them then you should kill them.

If you are scared of glyphosate you can use vinegar as a non selective herbicide. There are tutorials if you google "vinegar as a weed killer "

Send pictures of what you're currently working with and we can work out a plan


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I can post a picture, but just imagine from an aerial view, it would appear that we have a green lawn (it's all crabgrass with some other weeds mixed in)


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I'd spray glyphosate and just keep the family off it for a bit. There'll be very little AI remaining after a good rain and in the long run you'll probavly have more exposure to it from eating crops that were sprayed with the stuff.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

davegravy said:


> I'd spray glyphosate and just keep the family off it for a bit. There'll be very little AI remaining after a good rain and in the long run you'll probavly have more exposure to it from eating crops that were sprayed with the stuff.


I've been reading about this stuff called "Drive". Thoughts?


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

LaffyCaffi said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> > I'd spray glyphosate and just keep the family off it for a bit. There'll be very little AI remaining after a good rain and in the long run you'll probavly have more exposure to it from eating crops that were sprayed with the stuff.
> ...


AI is quinclorac which is a selective post-emergent. It will kill some of your weeds (those that it's labeled for) but you may have weeds it won't touch. Glyphosate is non-selective and will take it all out. It's the best path to a blank canvas.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

davegravy said:


> LaffyCaffi said:
> 
> 
> > davegravy said:
> ...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@LaffyCaffi I have a hard time believing you have crabgrass. Please post a picture to see what you currently have. Don't use safari to post since it blocks the plug in sometimes.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

My situation


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I think the plan is roundup, till, cover with sand, lay sod, fertilizer, pray


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

There's at least two different grass types I can see in the first pic, I don't think either is crabgrass but it's hard to say what it is exactly. Someone here might be able to ID it with a closeup pic of the grass blade from various angles, and it MIGHT turn out to be something a selective herbicide like Tenacity can kill.

My guess is no however, in which case glyphosate is your best bet.

With the tenacity option it really only makes sense if there's only a bit of this grassy weed in your lawn and there's a decent amount of desirable turf worth saving.

The broadleaf weeds like the last pic are easy to deal with once you have your approach for the grassy weed nailed down: If you glyphosate they go away, if you do something like tenacity then you spike it with 3way to get the other broadleafs.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Thank you for this. I think I'm going to hit the yard today with roundup. I'm non-apologetically paranoid about chemicals, so I'll be wearing rubber boots, gloves, goggles, pants and long sleeved shirt.

But my next course of action is blurry: do I need to till it up? Or can I (next week) just cover it all with 80/20 sand/soil and then roll some new sod?



davegravy said:


> There's at least two different grass types I can see in the first pic, I don't think either is crabgrass but it's hard to say what it is exactly. Someone here might be able to ID it with a closeup pic of the grass blade from various angles, and it MIGHT turn out to be something a selective herbicide like Tenacity can kill.
> 
> My guess is no however, in which case glyphosate is your best bet.
> 
> ...


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

LaffyCaffi said:


> Thank you for this. I think I'm going to hit the yard today with roundup. I'm non-apologetically paranoid about chemicals, so I'll be wearing rubber boots, gloves, goggles, pants and long sleeved shirt.
> 
> But my next course of action is blurry: do I need to till it up? Or can I (next week) just cover it all with 80/20 sand/soil and then roll some new sod?


You definitely don't want to lay sod on top of dead turf, but I'm not sure tiling is great either since it can encourage buried weed seed to germinate.

I'll leave it to those with more experience doing sod, as I've only ever seeded my lawn. One thing they may recommend is renting a sod cutter to remove just the top layer.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I hit the yard with Roundup yesterday. Hopefully it's dying, but so far still looks like fairly healthy weeds.

Next course of action is to till it up, probably on Fri.

I'm told that I need to lay top soil. I'm working with 1900 sq. feet. According to my neighbor, I will need to divide that by 250 to determine how much top soil I'll need. That comes to 7 yards. Does this seem right? But the guy at the sod farm doesn't think I need any despite killing everything. I figured he'd know! Obviously I want to cut out unnecessary spending. Opinions?

I was planning on having that delivered on Friday, and laying sod on Sunday.

Any thoughts on this plan? Anything else I need to do?


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

...in other news, 2 days ago I sprayed Roundup. Today, weeds are still green and dandelions are blossoming??? I feel like I used plenty of roundup! What's going on?


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Progress.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Looks like you've been playing in the dirt! Nice job. What's your next step, are you still feeling like you need to bring in soil? Since you're tilling it's always better to 'incorporate' the amendments into the existing soil. Here in the SE with our acidic soil we try to throw down lime along with any phosphorous fertilizers into this mix. Not sure if that relates to your situation as well.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I've ordered 4 yards of premium compost that's coming in on Saturday with the sod. I've been told that I dont need to do anything but rake it on top.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think you will have a very bumpy lawn. You should drag that soil and try to get it leveled.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

I havent started raking yet. Is that what you mean?


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

[email protected]


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)




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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Very pretty! :thumbup: Keep the irrigation going enough to keep the sod and top of the soil moist until it roots, then gradually decrease the watering.

If you haven't read the stickied first post on the forum here, you should go thorugh that while you are waiting for the sod to take root: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595

When you have mowed the sod twice, then you should consider starting a weed control program. All your prep work will help to reduce weed pressure, but you will still have some trying to invade. A pre-emergent (Dimension/Prodiamine) will prevent weeds from germinating, but won't kill established weeds. They also will prevent sod from growing roots and new grass seed from establishing, so don't use them until you have heathy grass that is being mowed and aren't going to need to overseed until they wear off. They are the foundation of weed control. If there is one chemical that you should consider using, it is pre-emergents.

Any weeds that establish will need to be hand pulled or treated with spot spraying, which is managable on 1500 sq feet. I agree with you that minimizing chemicals is important, so blanket spraying should be reserved for full scale invasions.

The most important things are going to be good watering and mowing habits.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The soil looks pretty smooth prior to the sod. That was all hand raking?


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Yep. Although today it feels like back raking. That was a long day.


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## LaffyCaffi (Mar 8, 2020)

Awesome tips!! Thank you. Right now I'm just trying to keep our kids from letting the dog out! A few quick fails so far.



bernstem said:


> Very pretty! :thumbup: Keep the irrigation going enough to keep the sod and top of the soil moist until it roots, then gradually decrease the watering.
> 
> If you haven't read the stickied first post on the forum here, you should go thorugh that while you are waiting for the sod to take root: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595
> 
> ...


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## EFitz (Sep 18, 2019)

So any more updates? This last heat wave in Colorado sure slowed down my grass.


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