# Options for areas that pond?



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I would like to improve some ponding and water retention at the surface. pH and nutrient levels are near optimal and it hasn't improved over the years that took to happen. Most recent soil test was this year, but not just for the area in question but a larger area. Not going to test just that area at this point.

Installing drainage or using mechanical techniques like core aeration are out of the question. Not going to consider either one.

I was going to do a percolation test and soil structure jar test, though. Would those be good first steps? Problem is, I won't be able to get to the area for a while due to the water. I can't mow for a few weeks sometimes.

In the Winter, this water causes ice sheets which kill the grass.

But I wil consider something like AIR-8 if the results are halfway decent...or maybe there's another option. I would like to start improving it while it's still warm out and evaporation is better.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

@Green I saw a thread on this in the warm season grass forum. He had considerable ponding that improved greatly with air8 I'll attach the link to the thread below.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5121


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

JDgreen18 said:


> @Green I saw a thread on this in the warm season grass forum. He had considerable ponding that improved greatly with air8 I'll attach the link to the thread below.
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5121


Wow, that's great!


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Sand and peat 50/50 v/v. Grass will grow and it's firm enough to mow on even wet.

Might be a good "plan B." You can spread and level it on the "pond" to make the pond disappear and seed immediately.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith, good to know. But wouldn't that create a soil horizon with the native soil? That area is probably a medium loam, which might be why it clogs.

And how thick a coating are you talking?

Maybe I should do this on the very worst section once it dries, even if I plan to use AIR-8 after.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> good to know. But wouldn't that create a soil horizon with the native soil? That area is probably a medium loam, which might be why it clogs.
> 
> And how thick a coating are you talking?
> 
> Maybe I should do this on the very worst section once it dries, even if I plan to use AIR-8 after.


Yes, soil horizon is created but after using this method for a few years now (and equivocating with caveats about it in the past), I'm confident it works. In combination with the Air8 (which I still plan to try - seems it can't hurt so my curiousty has the best of me), it may be just what's needed for your situation as a nearly "instant" fix.

Despite soil layering created, roots do grow into it as long as conditions remain hydrated. If you have roots in that soil now with living grass, they will get into it just the same when it's under a layer of sand / peat if they need water. A compacted layer does inhibit root growth but I have not noted any differential due solely to layering versus compaction. In other words, it won't fare any worse but it will avoid drowning the crowns which tends to create havoc in ponded areas and also avoid the mowing difficulty. If you have good grass there now, you will have good grass after, minus the pond problems.

For thickness of coating, as deep a layer of the mix as needed to get the crowns out of the water and not drown. You don't need to wait for the water to disperse. The first couple years I did this I just spread the mix on the "lake" until it wasn't a lake anymore. What appears to happen is the sand / peat mix continues to wick water from the underlying wetness despite poor water holding properties of sand.

I had concerns that the wet would turn to dry and leave me with a barren beach during drought and / or salinity would increase due to evaporation rather than infiltration, but neither happened. During the recent June / July drought here, the sanded areas even in full sun performed very well, surpassed only by some partial shade areas with good soil and drainage that had some protection from blazing sun induced soil temps.

If you have dry areas with poor infiltration, that's a different problem - I'm still working on that one. I've done a few thousand square feet with aggressive core aeration and compost topdress that worked pretty well but I'm getting to old to do that on larger areas anymore. :lol:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith, thanks for the detailed explanation.

I do have both types of areas...ponding and others with dry soil/poor infiltration.

Did your areas that pond have poor infiltration? Mine do. I guess it must be silty from being wet so long over years, even though the default soil in the region is a very sandy loam. Trying to mulch leaves into the silty area is a futile exercise.

I'm not going to be able to totally fix it, because it apparently was a pond once, but I'd like to decrease the rime it takes to drain in cool weather from 2 weeks to 1. Even in Summer, it takes almost a week.

The result is that standing water kills the grass over time, and so does the ice in the Winter that results after a rain or snow melt. It's a hotbed for Poa as a result. When I raked it this Spring, the roots were so shallow that the grass pulled up in the worst areas. Even what isn't Poa annua or Triv has a permanent yellow green color due to the lack of soil oxygen presumably.

I hate to use chemicals since it's a somewhat natural area that frogs like, but I am seriously considering AIR-8...despite the low concentration of lye, which ironically might be part of the solution.

I think the topdress could only help.

So, you don't mix compost in?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

You could seed dandelions and let them get big so their large tap roots will aerate nice and deep. Then hit it with a 3 way later. :banana:


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith, thanks for the detailed explanation.
> 
> I do have both types of areas...ponding and others with dry soil/poor infiltration.
> 
> ...


Yes, a large area, approx 10,000 sq ft that I used to call the lake in rainy season. Slightly low area bounded on 4 sides by ever so slightly higher ground. Just enough to be a nuisance when mowing and drown new baby grass during seeding. Very annoying. Was toying with drainage but it's a long haul to trench and more than one tile line would be needed. When watching baby grass drown underwater one year and my mower tires rut it, the sand with peat idea seemed like something worth trying. The ground was so soft, I just started to think what I could do to firm it up. Golf greens used to be sand / peat mix so made sense at the time.

I've mixed compost and I've mixed peat. Both work. Peat is a lot easier; it's dry so doesn't clump. I have a cement mixer that does double duty to mix it.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> You could seed dandelions and let them get big so their large tap roots will aerate nice and deep. Then hit it with a 3 way later. :banana:


That would work. Corn too. I actually gave serious consideration to cover crop radishes to try to amend a "grassy knoll" highground area with clay as hard as lean concrete.
http://articles.extension.org/pages/64400/radishes-a-new-cover-crop-for-organic-farming-systems

After figuring how much the neighbors would like that, I changed my mind :lol:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Here's the part I'm unsure about...

My existing soil in most areas can be approximated using a combination of sand and compost. So, how would this be any different than adding more soil on top of the problem area? I couldn't imagine regular soil on top of the flooded area doing much to change it.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Here's the part I'm unsure about...
> 
> My existing soil in most areas can be approximated using a combination of sand and compost. So, how would this be any different than adding more soil on top of the problem area? I couldn't imagine regular soil on top of the flooded area doing much to change it.


You're right in that there is no immediate "complete" fix to an area with poor infiltration or high water table. All adding the sand / peat mix does is firm up the surface, gets the surface of the growing medium above the water, and allow roots and root cycling to take place where before the plants would drown and die. Over the course of years, infiltration improves significantly. In the mean time, instead of standing water in the pond after every heavy rain, you have turf growing just like the rest of your property.

Getting the surface of the growing medium above the water is the key - because it's sand, it doesn't actually change the drainage plane; the water is still where it always was, but under the surface. The crowns don't drown and as the water recedes, the roots grow. The more they grow, the more infiltration improves, which allows for yet deeper roots and more infiltration and so on and on.

If the issue is high water table, there really is no substitute for underground drainage of some sort. The water table has to be lowered because roots will never grow if it's actually completely underwater just under the soil surface all the time. It doesn't sound like that's what you have though.

Also, if your soil was actually completely loamy sand, it would drain. It doesn't. There is a lot of silt or clay in there somewhere.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Ok. I get it now. Do you think I should go for a little bit more sandy in the top coat?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Ok. I get it now. Do you think I should go for a little bit more sandy in the top coat?


You can definitely experiment but although it may not seem so, a 50/50 mix by volume isn't really much peat. I only use the peat to get some organic matter in there so it will hold some water and have some CEC. Is that the "right" amount - don't know. I've seen mixes suggested as high as 50/50 by weight which would be a boatload of peat, down to modern greens which are 100% sand, so as far as trying a mix, anything goes.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Any particular sand type? Should I try to match the local soil somehow?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Any particular sand type? Should I try to match the local soil somehow?


Fairway sand if you can get it. If not, mason sand. It needs to be sharp sand that drains, but not "too" fast. Fairway sand is engineered with a specific mix of grain sizes for that purpose. Mason sand is pretty close in performance, at least close enough for growing grass on a lawn.


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