# Is my backyard lawn worth saving?



## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

As you can see from the pictures theres crabgrass everywhere along with quite a few different weeds that I dont even know what they are called. If I was to attempt to treat the weeds will this yard ever turn around? Or is begging for a complete renovation?


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## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

Yes. Overseed with KBG or do the fall nitrogen blitz. Use Quinclorac on the crab grass.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

troksd said:


> Yes. Overseed with KBG or do the fall nitrogen blitz. Use Quinclorac on the crab grass.


Hmm.. I dunno, troksd. I agree that working with what you have is worthwhile so that you can learn how to prevent a Zombie Lawn from happening again. That has been my approach. I'm fairly new and learning so much. I have learned that if I can't nail the basics, my lawn is doomed to Zombie status yet again.

Now... in this writer's case, crabgrass IS the lawn.  If they kill all the crabgrass, there won't be a lawn.

It's probably worthwhile to ask the writer what their long-term plans are. Maybe direct them to the Cool Season Lawn Guide and let them decide from there.

For starters for this year, I would do your quinclorac suggestion, get that stuff killed, rake up the mess, and seed in fall. Maybe go so far as to glysophate everything... kill it all off... and seed in fall.

But, again... if they don't know how to water, mow, control weeds, and fertilize lawn... maybe like you said, just take it one step at a time and kill the easy crabgrass, learn how to control it for next year, and fill in with seed this fall.

Whaddya think?

B


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## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

Agree with your suggestion.
I have wasted hundreds on over watering, seeding during the wrong time, cutting the grass too low...



BXMurphy said:


> For starters for this year, I would do your quinclorac suggestion, get that stuff killed, rake up the mess, and seed in fall. Maybe go so far as to glysophate everything... kill it all off... and seed in fall.
> 
> But, again... if they don't know how to water, mow, control weeds, and fertilize lawn... maybe like you said, just take it one step at a time and kill the easy crabgrass, learn how to control it for next year, and fill in with seed this fall.
> 
> ...


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

troksd said:


> Agree with your suggestion.
> I have wasted hundreds on over watering, seeding during the wrong time, cutting the grass too low...
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah... it's taken me two years/seasons to figure out spring pre-emergent for crabgrass, fall pre-emergent for _poa annua_, buying chemicals, researching and buying equipment, seeing results, getting distracted with cutting down overgrowth, growing flowers and veggies, installing drip irrigation, getting yelled at by wife...

They ain't kidding when they say a solid lawn is a two-year project! And now I'm eyeballing a renovation!

I can't even imagine renovating and watching all my hard work go zombie because I didn't know how to maintain my new lawn.

There are a lot of experts on this forum. Mixed in with a lot of newbies (like me). We all have to watch each others' backs.

The slow and steady approach will pay solid dividends over time, I think.

It sure has been an interesting season! Long, cool, and wet spring. Challenging heat wave. We laughed, we cried. This season has it all! 

Murph


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

First and foremost that crabgrass needs to be killed now as it will drop millions of seeds by end of summer. Since there isn't much worth save I would round it up and then water for the next 3 weeks and round it up again.... get as much of the crabgrass and weeds to germinate and then kill it..


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Yea the whole yard is pretty much crab grass unfortunately. I just wasnt sure if I should attempt to kill the crabgrass/weeds and overseed in the fall.....OR....kill everything and start from scratch.

Im new to the lawn game (first home) and would like a respectable green lawn. Not looking for perfection but at least one uniform type of grass without 1000's of weeds.

Im not afraid of the hard work if a full renovation is the right move.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I see enough grass that I think you should kill the crabgrass and overseed. A Reno is a lot of work.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

bentz69 said:


> Im new to the lawn game (first home) and would like a respectable green lawn. Not looking for perfection but at least one uniform type of grass without 1000's of weeds.
> 
> Im not afraid of the hard work if a full renovation is the right move.


You will definitely get a respectable, very respectable, lawn with proper basics... mowing, watering, fertilizing, and weed control. The "hard work" is the weeds.

Step one: Weed-B-Gon CCO.
Step two: Seed in fall and follow basic maintenance.
Step three: Prodiamine in spring.
Step four: Be amazed at what just happened.

Rinse and repeat.

Murph

P.S. Shun weed and feed products. Milorganite should be your preferred fertilizer.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

g-man said:


> I see enough grass that I think you should kill the crabgrass and overseed. A Reno is a lot of work.


I suppose its worth a shot to try and fix it before starting fresh. Should I start killing the crabgrass now or is there any reason to wait? Im rather uneducated on the appropraite chemicals to use and I see that its difficult to find quinclorac (if thats what I need) in NY. I see ortho has this.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

BXMurphy said:


> bentz69 said:
> 
> 
> > Im new to the lawn game (first home) and would like a respectable green lawn. Not looking for perfection but at least one uniform type of grass without 1000's of weeds.
> ...


I see so many different types of weed killer. Not sure if I should be using ortho crab grass or the one you recommened or both?


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

bentz69 said:


> I see so many different types of weed killer. Not sure if I should be using ortho crab grass or the one you recommened or both?


It's easy to be distracted by Bright and Shiny Things. WBG CCO is an essential part of basic maintenance. That, prodiamine and Milorganite, are really your go-to chemicals for a respectable, very respectable lawn.

It's really that simple. Proper watering, mowing, weed control (with WBG CCO and prodiamine), and fertilizing (with Milorganite) will largely give you a lawn that will make your neighbors green with envy.

B


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@BXMurphy your post is confusing. Wbg CCO will not kill crabgrass.

@bentz69 that product should work, but the % of ai is low, so it could take longer. They also sell the same product in a concentrate bottle. It will treat a lot more yard than the hose end one.

I think you should kill the crabgrass now. First it avoid it dropping seeds and second, must of the Herbicides have some residual effect into the soil that will prevent new seeds from growing. The sooner you apply the sooner you could seed.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

By the way... I think a lot of us regulars here forget to tell newbies that they have to measure their grass area for a lot of this to work. I only remembered just now...

You don't want to guess when applying fertilizer and chemicals.

What I mean is that I have a 6,000 SF plot of land. Only 2,500 SF is actual grass after taking out house, garage, driveway, etc.

THEN... <chuckle> you have to calibrate your sprayer and spreader to but down the right amount of chemical over the square footage.

See how weird this can get? And fast?... That's why it takes at least a year to figure it all out and... you're only scratching the surface! Just doing the basics!

Do yourself a favor and save yourself some headaches (and money) and buy the WBG CCO and just please kill your weeds and put down some seed this fall. Pretty please. With a little sugar on it. 

And then study how to calibrate your equipment and figure out chemical app rates and then tell me if you really, REALLY want a respectable lawn, a very respectable lawn, or a lawn like everybody else's (and what you have now).

So... get out there with a tape measure or, if your lawn is too big, use Google maps to map out the turf square footage (there's a tool there somewhere).

Have fun with that! 

Murph


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

g-man said:


> @BXMurphy your post is confusing. Wbg CCO will not kill crabgrass.


Yes. YES! @g-man, you are right. I am wrong. Thank you for coming along and correcting!

@bentz69, you do need the big box crabgrass killer. It should have quinclorac as an active ingredient. The WBG CCO takes out the salad-looking weeds.

B


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

@bentz69

When spraying these herbicides be mindful of temperature. Read the label for instructions. If daytime highs are reaching into the upper 80s or low 90s it is usually best to wait for cooler temps. You can spray early or late in the day to avoid the higher temps.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

My backyard lawn is approximately 5000 sq ft. Front lawn is 4500.

Ok, so lets attack this crab grass ASAP and get prepared for a fall overseed. Still not sure if I can use both of those products from ortho at the same to kill everything that is not grass?

BTW, I have 4 bags of milogranite (2 for the front, 2 for the back) in my garage with a April date. My front lawn is in much better condition then the back. I had my rear patio re-built in May and the bulldozer was going over my front lawn which basically destroyed it. I treated the front weeds with RoundUp for lawns in April, put 10 yards of topsoil in the front and re-seeded the front with a 50% fescue/40% rye/10% kbg and scotts starter fert at the end of May. I put scotts lawn food last weekend and will likely use the milogranite on the front this weekend.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

@pennstater2005, has someone written up a tutorial on TLF about how to calculate active ingredients in a bag of fertilizer and how to apply an AI over square footage.

I remember that this was a major stumbling block for me as I was just getting started. I had to piece all that together from a whole bunch of sites. It was so frustrating...

Doing the math and doing the calibrating is such a large part of this and is so fundamental that it begs to be written up in a comprehensive way.

Take @bentz69, for example... the writer will essentially be blanket-spraying quinclorac and not spot-treating. A homeowner like that should have a place to go for instructions.

B


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Check out the calculator below my signature. It's a start.

I blanket sprayed 15k a few years ago without issue. Followed the label for each herbicide and used a Chapin hose end sprayer. Great results.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

bentz69 said:


> My backyard lawn is approximately 5000 sq ft. Front lawn is 4500.
> 
> Ok, so lets attack this crab grass ASAP and get prepared for a fall overseed. Still not sure if I can use both of those products from ortho at the same to kill everything that is not grass?


Ok, that's a lot of lawn. I probably wouldn't use a hand pump 2-gallon sprayer. If that's all you have, get cracking. Better to use a backpack sprayer, though. I use a Chapin 4-gallon rechargeable battery backpack sprayer. It works just fine.

Get out there with a big box weed killer that has "plus crabgrass" and kill whatever dies. You will kill about 90% of what needs killing. The CCO is a little tougher. I don't remember what the active ingredient in WBG CCO is but spot treat that as necessary.

Creeping Charlie is always a problem. Sometimes you get some vine-looking things. You'll want triclopyr as an active ingredient. That much I remember because these weeds I constantly battle.

Blanket the crabgrass with "plus crabgrass." Spot treat what's left. Seed in fall. Prodiamine in spring when the forsythia bloom so you don't have this problem next year.

You will not kill quackgrass, nutsedge, _poa trivialis_ and _poa annua_. You will never kill these unless you "go pro" or renovate. Roundup kills everything green.

You will still have a very respectable lawn that looks decent from the road after killing the weeds, seeding, PREVENTING weeds (with prodiamine) and basic maintenance.

B


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

It depends how fast you want the results, I think it's just a better use of time and effort to kill the whole thing and start over even if it's just regular seed from your local hardware store. What you have there is a disaster from many years of neglect.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Great advice from everyone. Much thanks...

Once all this crabgrass/weeds dies, turns yellow, etc., should I rake it? Pull it? Mow it?


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

I think getting sound advice on this is important.. I don't think the "plus crab grass" or "crabgrass prevent" will have enough of the active ingredient Quinclorac to get rid of the infestation in the photos above. Yes it will take out most of the broadleaf weeds, but I suspect it will only slightly stunt the crabgrass.

I think if the lawn is to be saved a Quinclorac product live Drive XLR8 or similar would be the way to go, but I am not sure if it is for sale to NY state. Another option would be to use Tenacity before it gets to the 4 tiller stage... I just sprayed Tenacity in my back reno tonight as I am getting a bunch of baby crabgrass moving in...... I chose to overseed in the spring rather than do pre-m and we will see if it was the right move...


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

pennstater2005 said:


> Check out the calculator below my signature. It's a start.
> 
> I blanket sprayed 15k a few years ago without issue. Followed the label for each herbicide and used a Chapin hose end sprayer. Great results.


Yep! And even @g-man up above said a reno is a lot of work. But it doesn't HAVE to be...

It all depends on what you want to do. Me? I over-think things.

A reno is basically kill everything. Water 3-4 times a day to keep moist and kill everything that comes up again. That's a "double-tap." Rake up the mess. Do this killing and raking so that your double-tap is done and you're ready for seeding in the fall just as the cool weather hits.

And then run down to the big box and sprinkle down some seed and keep watering 3-4 times a day to keep moist until first frost and see what spring brings.

It doesn't HAVE to be hard unless you want to go hard-core, over-think, over-research, and strive for The Best Lawn Ever Known to Man.

B


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Stuofsci02 said:


> I think getting sound advice on this is important.. I don't think the "plus crab grass" or "crabgrass prevent" will have enough of the active ingredient Quinclorac to get rid of the infestation in the photos above. Yes it will take out most of the broadleaf weeds, but I suspect it will only slightly stunt the crabgrass.
> 
> I think if the lawn is to be saved a Quinclorac product live Drive XLR8 or similar would be the way to go, but I am not sure if it is for sale to NY state. Another option would be to use Tenacity before it gets to the 4 tiller stage... I just sprayed Tenacity in my back reno tonight as I am getting a bunch of baby crabgrass moving in...... I chose to overseed in the spring rather than do pre-m and we will see if it was the right move...


Yes... I mean, you really can't say enough about a pre-emergent. Seriously. My jaw dropped and I was stunned to silence when I saw how powerfully a pre-emergent worked. I was hooked on lawns ever since.

Tenacity is a pre-emergent. It will help you with the difficult _poa annua_ and locking out weeds while seeding. Especially important for a renovation at seed-down.

I wouldn't do a spring seeding because you will have your hands full with controlling weeds and prodiamine is the weapon of choice but it is an interesting experiment based on an individual's best judgement.

B


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## Vtx531 (Jul 1, 2019)

Yes - I think if you mow regularly, overseed, and use proper fertilization/weedkiller, you can save it. It wouldn't be any more work than what someone would normally always have to do for a nice lawn. So I don't think anyone can say a reno would be *less* work.

You will also have a sense of pride in the transformation.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

bentz69 said:


> Great advice from everyone. Much thanks...
> 
> Once all this crabgrass/weeds dies, turns yellow, etc., should I rake it? Pull it? Mow it?


If you really don't want to do a full renovation that's fine. Use the crabgrass killer they are talking about and later on in the spring or fall of next year you can overseed. Is that going to leave you with the most stunning lawn on the block? No. But you'll be miles ahead of where you are now.

And if overseeding is too much work for you just follow any 4 step program of fertilizer from now on and you'll see a big difference.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Ill report back with some pictures after I spray and hopefully the crabgrass dies off


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

A lot of discussion here regarding crabgrass, so perhaps someone can provide clarification. I've heard many say pre-m lasts only for X amount of months. What is the determining factor in this? Is it the rate or doubling the rate to get longer coverage?

I applied pre-m in the spring, and lately I am noticing a lot of crabgrass popping up which I didn't have before. I'm in Mass and we just had our first heat wave this past week, so perhaps that is a contributor to it?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Buddy said:


> A lot of discussion here regarding crabgrass, so perhaps someone can provide clarification. I've heard many say pre-m lasts only for X amount of months. What is the determining factor in this? Is it the rate or doubling the rate to get longer coverage?


The length of time that a pre-emergent lasts depends upon the rate at which the pre-m is applied. On the product label, there will be a table that indicates the amount of product to apply for different lengths of coverage. Basically, the more that is applied, the longer it will last. The rate of degradation is non-linear and dependent upon a whole bunch of factors, so it is not as simply as doubling the amount to double the period of coverage. The length of coverage is also based upon "average conditions" for a whole bunch of parameters that can affect the rate of degradation, such as temperature, amount of sunlight, soil type, amount of precipitation, soil pH, and many others. In short the length of coverage is a bit of a guess / estimate and can have a lot of variation, in the same way that an EPA estimate for the gas mileage of your car depends upon a whole bunch of different things, some of which are in your control and some of which are not.



Buddy said:


> I applied pre-m in the spring, and lately I am noticing a lot of crabgrass popping up which I didn't have before. I'm in Mass and we just had our first heat wave this past week, so perhaps that is a contributor to it?


Yes, temperature affects rate of degradation for pre-emergents. Generally, they degrade faster in high temperatures and with more exposure to sunlight. Crabgrass also loves the heat, so it grows faster in "heat wave" conditions than in cool conditions.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

A pre-emergent puts down a thin layer of chemicals that prevent weed seeds from sprouting successfully. This layer eventually breaks down. The tihcker and more uniformly you apply or spread the layer, the longer it lasts.

A fair comparison would be painting a surface. The paint will not last forever and ever. However, the paint will last longer if it is expertly applied. Thin spots will deteriorate first, thicker and more complete areas will last longer.

The pre-emergent of choice around here is prodiamine. There are others and they have their uses but, by and large, prodiame is used for routine maintenance (and it works great, by the way).

Prodiamine is a Wettable Dispersable Granule (WDG). small, dry granules that are added to water so that when you shake the water, you essentially have a powder suspended in water that can be sprayed on your lawn.

That is what makes the thin layer of weed protection. The thicker and more expertly this powder is applied, the longer it lasts. Common application calculations for how much powder to put onto water are for four months' worth of protection (about half a season) or six months (all season long).

B


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

Is pulling crab grass not a good thing, and better off spraying? I have some areas where I could dig it out or is this not good as it will spread seeds, not truly go away like nutsedge?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Buddy pulling works. For larger areas, spraying is easier.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Buddy said:


> Is pulling crab grass not a good thing, and better off spraying? I have some areas where I could dig it out or is this not good as it will spread seeds, not truly go away like nutsedge?


Hand-pulling crabgrass is fine. It's easiest to do if the soil is a little moist, whether from recent rain or watering. I find it best to do it first thing in the morning.

Personally, I think hand-pulling is the best approach if the area is small enough and you have sufficient patience to do it.

However, be SURE to apply a pre-emergent next spring at forsythia bloom. Thousands of crabgrass seeds are surely in the lawn and will germinate next year if you don't apply a pre-emergent!


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Buddy said:
> 
> 
> > Is pulling crab grass not a good thing, and better off spraying? I have some areas where I could dig it out or is this not good as it will spread seeds, not truly go away like nutsedge?
> ...


I did apply a pre-m...I'm just thinking at this point I didn't apply a high enough rate and it is perhaps wearing off? I haven't had any all season until this past week. We had a heat wave and some high humidity levels which perhaps prompted it. Yesterday I sprayed some, but I might pull it out if I don't see it dying off soon. Keeps me busy while the kids play in the yard! Going to figure out if it's worth applying any in the fall.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Buddy said:


> I did apply a pre-m...I'm just thinking at this point I didn't apply a high enough rate and it is perhaps wearing off? I haven't had any all season until this past week. We had a heat wave and some high humidity levels which perhaps prompted it. Yesterday I sprayed some, but I might pull it out if I don't see it dying off soon. ... Going to figure out if it's worth applying any in the fall.


The fact that this is the first crab grass you've seen this season is an important fact. If you applied around forsythia bloom (approx 3 months ago) depending upon what and how much you applied it could definitely be starting to wear off now, especially in places which received a lighter app or that have biodegraded more quickly.

Hand-pulling is always my first line of defense against any new weed in my lawn. For 1 of the weed, there's no question that hand-pulling is the answer. For 10 of the weed, still a no-brainer, just hand-pull, too. For 100 of the weed, I start to think about whether to hand-pull or mix up the appropriate herbicide, but will likely just end up hand-pulling. For 1000 of the weed, the herbicide would almost surely be my choice, but depending on the circumstances, I may still hand-pull. For 10,000 of the weed, herbicide definitely wins. I guess my point is that you shouldn't rule out hand-pulling.

I honestly don't get it when I see other people here talking about applying herbicide to their lawn when they only have 7 new weeds this week. By hand-pulling, I could have 7 weed seedlings out of my lawn in 35 seconds, and the removal would be a 100% guaranteed immediate kill for every single one!

I estimate that I probably hand-pull an average of about 50 weed seedlings from my lawn every time I mow, which is about every 4 days for most of the growing season. Pulling 50 weed seedlings from my lawn while mowing probably adds less than 5 minutes to my mowing time. Think of it as Integrated Pest Management.


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Buddy said:
> 
> 
> > I did apply a pre-m...I'm just thinking at this point I didn't apply a high enough rate and it is perhaps wearing off? I haven't had any all season until this past week. We had a heat wave and some high humidity levels which perhaps prompted it. Yesterday I sprayed some, but I might pull it out if I don't see it dying off soon. ... Going to figure out if it's worth applying any in the fall.
> ...


Thanks for the information. I think the pre-m is starting to wear off based on when I applied it. I will probably pull most of the crabgrass as I can see them and I don't mind doing it while I'm in the yard at night with the kids. Just wanted to make sure pulling them wasn't going to leave seedings behind to sprout again.


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## rtdad (Jul 13, 2019)

BXMurphy said:


> By the way... I think a lot of us regulars here forget to tell newbies that they have to measure their grass area for a lot of this to work. I only remembered just now...
> 
> You don't want to guess when applying fertilizer and chemicals.
> 
> ...


This is true.. I still haven't properly measured my lawn after years of lawn care.
I took a tape measure once upon a time but think I just rounded up to 5k


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Bumping this thread....

Since the original post I have sprayed the backyard twice to kill the crabgrass (second spray was 3 weeks ago). It appears that everything has died off and a few spots are almost completely dead. The weather is still warm with 80s expected this weekend and I plan to overseed this weekend.

Being a lawn novice Ive made this my plan.

1)Mow to roughly 1-1.5 inches
2)rake the enitre lawn removing dead/brown grass and fresh clippings
3)planning to have several yards of topsoil delivered to dress the lawn, especially the bare spots.
4)seed and rake lightly
5)add scotts starter fert w/weed preventer 5-10 days after seeding

I have scotts lawn food (put down 8 weeks ago) and several bags of milogranite that I didnt use this summer. Should it be used now or is that wasting it?

I was thinking that I should aerate INSTEAD of adding topsoil but I dont have the ability to rent the aerator right now so topsoil is the only option

Backyard 










Front yard


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

When were you planning on putting the seed down? It's getting terribly late in the season. TTTF and PRG would be your only options at this point, but even then there may not be enough time for the new grass to harden off before Winter.

I would save the milo for next year. The soil temps will continue to drop over the next several weeks and the milo will be useless.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

If you use the Scotts with mesotrione, put it down right after seeding before the first watering, as the label directs. Do not use it 5-10 days after seeding. I think you could skip it. If your grass is mostly KBG, it will spread and fill in bare spots. So instead of seeding you would concentrate on fertilizer now and into October to promote growth. If your grass is mostly fescue or rye, it won't spread and it would be worthwhile to seed the bare spots. You can use a garden rake or a garden weasel to loosen up the soil in those spots. Be careful not to bury the seed too deep if you use topsoil. Aim for 1/8 inch if you cover the seed.


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## bentz69 (Jun 12, 2018)

Old thread but worthy of an update. Appreciate all the advice

September 2019 - several yards of topsoil added, overseed, scotts starter fert



October 2019 - scotts lawn food spread



Yesterday - Urea sprayed, Prodiamine sprayed. Hoping those small bare spots fill in


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## jprez (Oct 25, 2019)

Your yard came along really nice I got to say.


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## dsc123 (Mar 22, 2020)

Looks great. What a turn around! I bet you're glad you didn't kill it all & start over


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Awesome! 
I had a whole response ready to submit since I saw a few responses that got me riled up, and then realized you posted updates.

Congrats- that looks beautiful


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