# Fall Pre-M Time Approaching...



## reidgarner (Jun 18, 2018)

It's getting close to that time for fall Pre apps in warm season turf to control Poa. Just wanted to see what and when everyone is going out with. Here's my plan:

September 1: 
Prodiamine @ .575 lbs / acre.
Celsius @ low rate (have a few broadleafs to clean up)
Liquid Iron/micro supplement (to give a color boost without having to put out too much N)

November 1 (or after full dormancy)
Prodiamine @ .575
Simazine @ 1 qt / acre
Three Way @ label rate

I know a lot of the turf companies around here have switched to Specticle for fall (and some spring) Pre with excellent results. It's just too expensive to buy for one lawn. I've also read it can cause root pruning in desirable grasses. I have a few bare spots that just do not want to fill in, and the only thing I can think of is that the company I had spraying my lawn until this year has used Specticle for spring and fall Pre for the last two years. If I get some breakthrough Poa, I'll just bite the bullet and hit it with some Certainty or Revolver come late winter.

Interested to hear other folks plans.


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## randy (Jun 29, 2018)

Last year was my first year using a Pre-M. I used Prodiamine in September at the recommended label rate and then again pre-spring. It worked great. I don't plan to do anything more (except a fungicide).

My lawn is bermuda and I did spray one dormant broadcast application of Glyphosate in winter to take care of some remnant cool season grasses that the previous owners probably threw down in ignorance.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Prodiamine and Dithiopyr both can cause root pruning as well.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> Prodiamine and Dithiopyr both can cause root pruning as well.


This is only a concern if you hit the leaves with the product correct?


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

CenlaLowell said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > Prodiamine and Dithiopyr both can cause root pruning as well.
> ...


Actually no
Both products are available in liquid spray and granular form.
Liquid spray will always touch the leaves but with both granular and liquid spray you water in the product.
I prefer liquid because it seems like i get a more uniform coverage.
Over application in both cases will cause root proning


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > Prodiamine and Dithiopyr both can cause root pruning as well.
> ...


Is that a concern for cool season tttf ? I've got to put down pre em on Bermuda too


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## reidgarner (Jun 18, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> Prodiamine and Dithiopyr both can cause root pruning as well.


Yes, pretty much any Pre-m other than Oxadiazon will. But not nearly as bad as Specticle. And I believe Specticle can persisit in the soil a lot longer.

A lot of turf managers will only use Specticle on very dense well established turf.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Maybe re-think your pre-emergent strategy. Preemergent needs to go down at the optimal times for germination, so when you do two fall (or basically fall) apps, you're taking away from your annual max that may be applied in the spring and summer when new germination is to occur. You need one pre-em app in the fall to prevent germination of most winter weeds. Then kill them off with post-emergent just before the lawn comes back out of dormancy.


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## reidgarner (Jun 18, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Maybe re-think your pre-emergent strategy. Preemergent needs to go down at the optimal times for germination, so when you do two fall (or basically fall) apps, you're taking away from your annual max that may be applied in the spring and summer when new germination is to occur. You need one pre-em app in the fall to prevent germination of most winter weeds. Then kill them off with post-emergent just before the lawn comes back out of dormancy.


Here in north GA where warm season goes completely dormant, Poa pressure is extreme. I think the fall app is just as important (if not more) as the spring. I wouldn't want to back off my fall rate to put it towards a spring app.

Some folks hit only two apps per year with good success. They take the max annual rate and divvy by 2, and time the apps roughly six months apart - March and Sep for example.

I've found that splitting your fall and spring apps further, into two apps each (basically taking max annual and divvying by 4) can help hedge your bets on timing with the weather. Might even stretch your control window a bit if you have heavy rains several months after the first spring or fall app. So my apps basically look like this: Feb, Apr, Sep, Nov.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

So how much is specticle?


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

reidgarner said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Maybe re-think your pre-emergent strategy. Preemergent needs to go down at the optimal times for germination, so when you do two fall (or basically fall) apps, you're taking away from your annual max that may be applied in the spring and summer when new germination is to occur. You need one pre-em app in the fall to prevent germination of most winter weeds. Then kill them off with post-emergent just before the lawn comes back out of dormancy.
> ...


The fall app is the single most important, but putting it during the period of germination is equally important.

Splitting the apps like that does not per se gain you much except for perhaps some increased protection a few weeks after application. What you should do instead, if you are wanting to get really aggressive, is use multiple pre-emergents.

Prodiamine is key in the fall and for the first spring app. But you should look into Dithiropyr or something like Pennant Magnum. You could then get the full prodiamine rate in 2 apps, at the most critical times, and then expand protection using other active ingredients. That's how you boost your program. For example, I apply three separate pre-emergents.


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## randy (Jun 29, 2018)

reidgarner said:


> I've found that splitting your fall and spring apps further, into two apps each (basically taking max annual and divvying by 4) can help hedge your bets on timing with the weather. Might even stretch your control window a bit if you have heavy rains several months after the first spring or fall app. So my apps basically look like this: Feb, Apr, Sep, Nov.


But not all is equal between those months for warm season grasses. Your post-em options Sept -> Feb is way different than Feb -> Sept. I did two apps, but didn't even come close to the yearly max. I'm pretty sure the max isn't there as a goal, but as an extreme limit.


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## reidgarner (Jun 18, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> reidgarner said:
> 
> 
> > Ecks from Tex said:
> ...


I agree rotating AIs between Prodiamine and Dithiopyr isn't a bad idea but I wouldn't want to max out both during the same year. They are both similar in how they work (miotic inhibition). If I rotated I'd hit half annual of both.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Just throw down one application before Halloween. Prodiamine and simazine. Done. I'd suggest monument as well but most people don't want to pay for it.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

reidgarner said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > reidgarner said:
> ...


I spend my entire year nursing the biggest sissy grass known to man. I get a bare spot in 2018 and think to myself, "sure hope this fills back in by 2023."

So I assure you if you happen to hit the max with prodiamine you aren't messing anything up. In fact, I don't think you can get a years worth of protection if you do not hit the max. Manufacturer testing to put this product to market on residential turf by design has a margin of error associated with its max rate, and the label rate is at the bottom of that margin.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I use dithiopyr in granular form. I can't find anything on maximum applications for granular but for liquid it's pretty uniformly stated like this label which implies to me 3 full strength applications per year can be made.


Do not apply more than 0.73 oz of Quali-Pro Dithiopyr 2L per 1,000 sq ft (2 pints per acre) per application.

Do not apply more than 2.2 oz of Quali-Pro Dithiopyr 2L per 1,000 sq ft (6 pints per acre) per year using split or sequential applications.

EDIT/UPDATE - 
I did find a label form a 0.10% Lesco granular that also implies 3 full applications per year!


This product may be applied as a single application, as a split application, or as a
sequential application for crabgrass control in the spring, summer, or fall.
DO NOT apply more than 11.47 lb of this product per 1,000 sq ft per application, and no
more than 34.41 lb of this product per 1,000 sq ft per year.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Just throw down one application before Halloween. Prodiamine and simazine. Done. I'd suggest monument as well but most people don't want to pay for it.


I'm with Mr. Shrub on this. I'll be using prodiamine & simazine and then following up in November with Monument. I will not have a repeat of this past winter's poa problem. I've got pictures to show how lush and green my yard was at that time.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > Just throw down one application before Halloween. Prodiamine and simazine. Done. I'd suggest monument as well but most people don't want to pay for it.
> ...


That three legged syngenta combo works A-mazng. Don't forget the NIS with the surfactant. The only place I found poa was areas where I couldn't spray easily; behind HVAC unit for sample or where leaves were collecting. For my 1/3rd of an acre yard, I found just a few poa annua plants all season.


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