# Lawn Reno - To till, or not to till?



## papa_bear_1164 (Jul 22, 2020)

I'm doing a lawn renovation this fall and was curious what are thoughts on tilling vs just aerate + topdress before overseeding when doing a reno? I have some pretty crappy clay here and want to incorporate some good enriched topsoil to bring it up a notch. I also have found several rocks of good size 2-6 inches of the surface so that was my primary reason for leaning toward just tilling everything up and working some new topsoil into the existing clay. However the cost difference will be substantial and not sure it's worth it? Any feedback or suggestions are appreciated. ~3K sq ft area.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

If there are good size rocks close to the surface, you should dig them out (shovel,, crowbar). It would be difficult to till rocks anyway. Tilling will leave you with a bumpy lawn as things settle, some areas tilled more deeply than other areas. However, it does give an opportunity to deeply incorporate lime if that is needed and to incorporate fertilizer. If you needed phosphorus, which is fairly immobile, it would get it more into the root zone. As for bringing in topsoil, the new soil might not be any better than what you have so check out the source and inspect it ahead of time. You don't want to bring in too much as you can harm your trees (can even possibly kill them) and you don't want your hardscapes (like sidewalks) to be lower than the surrounding ground. I would vote for bringing in only enough to fill in low spots and to level things out. Mulch mow your leaves in the fall and leave your grass clippings on the lawn to provide more organic matter.


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## papa_bear_1164 (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks for the insight. The topsoil I get locally is quality, i've used it before. Good enriched stuff. Regarding the tilling, these guys I'm considering hiring have a ditch witch soil cultivator (aka rotodairon, see below link) which also levels it out a bit after turning the soil. I think it would make a good seed bed after incorporating w/ the topsoil, but at close to $2K job for a 3K sq ft area, this is a pretty expensive option. I'm wondering if a good dethatching of dead grass, core aeration (I own a pull behind so no additional cost), topdressing, and overseed would work just as well... Important to note, I've already killed the area w/ glyphosate so point of no return has officially been crossed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcK-jpZPbsQ


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I'd use $2000 for irrigation instead.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Have you read the guides here on renovation and overseeding?
Guide on renovations:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16808
Guide on overseeding:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6250

What are you doing about removing the rocks? Whether you bring in soil and till or not, you should get those rocks out of there. They will be a problem forever. If it turns out your yard is basically a rock pile, then you might want to look into rock gardening instead of growing grass.


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## papa_bear_1164 (Jul 22, 2020)

Thanks for sharing the renovation guide, good info there. No clue what to do about the rocks. They aren't all throughout the lawn, but whenever I see a problem area and start digging, there's usually a large rock embedded which makes sense as to why that spot is struggling. I'd like to think I've gotten most of the main culprits already, but can't be certain (there isn't a "rock detector", that I'm aware of). When they were building this subdivision and excavating plots, the contractors made sure to do as little cleanup as they could possibly get away with. As this property is ~16 years old, there isn't much I can do without spending a small fortune, that I'm aware of. That's why I thought when renovating, tilling would be a good idea as to try to bring some of those rocks and debris to the surface and try to get rid as much as possible without driving myself completely crazy.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

A long screwdriver can be a rock detector. Poke it in the ground and see if it runs into something hard. Big rocks can damage a tiller. Maybe @Ridgerunner will weigh in. He knows about rocks in the soil and what can or cannot be done about them. If it's just a few or just construction debris, you can get them out. I also suggest posting about your issue in the Cool Season forum, maybe the Warm Season forum too. That gets more attention than the soil forum. You are not the only person with rocks in the soil. One other issue with bringing in lots of topsoil: if you don't do it correctly you can mess up the grading, so water doesn't drain away from the house as it should,


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Just kill it and top dress, no aeration or tilling.

Do you have a test showing you have a high percentage of clay? Many assume, but few know.

Adding more topsoil of unknown quality isnt a good strategy to remediate soil fertility anyways.

Test. Know.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

I just went through this myself. I'm fortunate to not have rocks, but my soil was awful, dead clay. General recommendation was/is to not till, but to just aerate and topdress with compost or better topsoil.

However, that cultivator attachment isn't tilling in the traditional sense because it won't generate big clods and will leave a smooth surface behind.

I don't guess that company can get a Harley rake attachment? 
That would bring the rocks to the surface ( at least a few inches deep) and move them to the perimeter where they can be removed.

I used the Harley to incorporate about a yard/1k sq ft of municipal compost and it did seem to help a lot.

Finally, I have to say, that price of $2k seems exorbitant to me for a 3k s.f. area! Are there any other vendors in your city who could do it? Or you could rent something similar from Sunbelt for $500-600 or less. At only 3k s.f. you could rent a flail dethatcher for under $100.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

No help here. I still haven't found an answer to mine. I'm glacial till with everything from stone gravel to landscape boulders. Rockhound/skid steer will only clean to 6-8" and can't clear large rocks/boulders. Excavating down 12-24" and replacing the soil is an expensive option as if they come across large boulders, it's an additional cost per. Even then there's the possibility of inevitable future rock heave, but that shouldn't occur until I'm long gone.


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