# Soil Tests



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Hi all,

So I've been reading up here on soil tests. I bought this house in July 2018 and the yard had all together been neglected.

Last year I had soil tests done in various parts of the yard. I have already posted my "story" in the Organic Forum under "I just want something green that doesn't die", so I'll make this short.

I seem to have no problem growing grass from seed...........until summer heat comes and then I lose most of it. Sept. 2019, I topdressed 2-3 inches of a topsoil/compost 50/50 mix on one area and about 1 inch of 100% compost on the other area, then seeded those large areas which grew up and looked beautiful all fall, winter and most of the spring. I used 80% tall fescue, 10% HB30 Hybrid Blue Grass and 10% white clover. June came around and the problems started - dying areas. Grass was mostly dead by mid-July. Clover was all dead. Crabgrass then took over.

Another plot I started April 2020 under the partial shade of trees. I seeded 60% fine fescue mix, 30 tall fescue and 10% white clover. This stand was mostly a success as I have a nice stand of fine fescue and clover there. I don't think any of the tall fescue survived - maybe it was too shady for it. No crabgrass invasion there.

I also have another area where there was already a nice thick turf stand which I left alone - if it aint broken, don't fix it!

Back to my soil tests - see below:


OK, not the most expert way to post an Excel spreadsheet, but I don't have any other way of converting an Excel file to a JPG.

Anyhow, the first two columns are the areas where grass failed. The 3rd column is the shade plot that was a success. The 4th column is the turf area that was already nice and thick and I left alone.

So...........interesting that the already thriving turf stand is where the soil pH is the lowest at 5.0!!! Reading around here, I see that G-Man's soil pH is around 8.0 and he has no problems growing grass.

Comparing results, the only difference between the failed and the successful stands is insufficient Mg. The already successful stand has the highest OM - 6.3 compared with 1.4 in what I describe as the "sand wasteland" which I amended with 2-3 inches of 50/50 topsoil/compost mix before seeding. Note that the frontyard stands - one which was a failure, the other which was a success, both had marginal OM - 3.9 and 4.0 respectively.

Interesting that all these other macro and micro nutrient deficiencies, some of them quite severe, aren't interfering with the ability for grass and plants to thrive there.

Anyway, if you have read this far, thank you. Appreciate any thoughts.

Thanks!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> I seem to have no problem growing grass from seed...........until summer heat comes and then I lose most of it.
> 
> ... Comparing results, the only difference between the failed and the successful stands is insufficient Mg.
> 
> ... Appreciate any thoughts.


My first thought is that soil is just one of about a dozen factors that affect whether or not grass can survive the summer heat.

Unless the soil is real bad, the soil probably isn't the primary issue. Other factors include the grass type, the amount of sun exposure, the amount of watering, the mowing height and frequency, fertilization amount and timing, grub prevention, and disease prevention. Actually, if those are all correct, grass will actually grow quite well, even in a "bad" soil.

The important thing to do, actually, is to figure out *why* your existing lawns are dying out. My first guess wouldn't be the soil, but some of those other factors.

Looking at your soil test, there's lots of room for improvement for more macronutrients and calcium, but those alone aren't going to kill the grass in the summer if the other items are in line. Actually, that's what you've said in your posting -- you have some areas that have done well.

However, even a lawn in perfect soil will have trouble in the summer if the other items I mentioned aren't right.

Having not even seen your lawn at all, my guesses would be a mismatch between your cultural practices, grass type, and summer conditions. This summer in New England was particularly dry -- any lawn without regular watering this summer is going to have really struggled. Sunny areas that weren't irrigated, regardless of the grass type, will have had a very tough time and will only now be starting to recover with the combination of some recent rain and less sun in these rapidly-shortening days.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Deadlawn I moved this to the soil folder.

Do you know what test method they use? Did they recommend lime? 5.0pH is pretty low.

To convert the excel to jpg, you can use windows snap it took (or snip it i don't recall the exact name).


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Thank you for the replies!

Ken-n-Nancy,

Understood that soil is only one factor. I just find it interesting that the area richest in OM is a leave it and forget it thick stand of turf! Yes, the soil fill over where a pool used to be IS really bad soil - coarse sand, and drains very quickly. Elsewhere, I find that soil below 8-12 inches is quite sandy, but a finer sand. There is certainly no problem with drainage around here, LOL!

As for the other items you mentioned:

Grass types in sunny (failed areas):

80% KY-31 tall fescue - Yes, I know this might be blasphemous on this forum, but I was looking for the most heat and drought tolerant grasses I could find). I do notice clumps of this coming back to life now.

10% HB30 Hybrid Bluegrass - I was looking for something rhizomatous to "knit" things together that is more heat and drought tolerant and lower maintenance than KBG. I don't know that any of it even germinated.

10% White Dutch clover - Yes, I know this might also be looked down on by some of the purists here, but I like the way it looks in a lawn and like that it's a nitrogen fixer. It also fills in...............in theory. None of it survived the sunny areas.

Grass types in part shady (successful area):

60% Outside Pride fine fescue blend (40% Zeal creeping red fescue, 40% Seducer Chewings fescue, 20% Eureka II hard fescue) - Success!

30% KY-31 tall fescue - Failed.

10% White Dutch clover - Success!

Watering:

Being that I seeded the previous year, maybe I figured I didn't need to baby it anymore and figured a once a week deep watering would be adequate. Did I possibly do something equivalent to throwing a young teenage kid out on the street?

Mowing height:

I only mowed once in fall after seeding at 3 1/4" which is my highest setting. I started spring mowing at 2 3/4", then raised back up to 3 1/4" by May. Reading around here, I see that short mowing when young is good because it encourages tillering. Live and learn! I will do that with my new seed stands here this fall. I can go down to 2 1/4", but the next step down 1 3/4" causes some scalping over uneven terrain. Frequency? Well, I have to admit I don't always follow the 1/3 rule, but I don't think I have ever cut off more than 1/2. I always mow in the late afternoon or evening as I have read that grass recovers better overnight when it's cooler.

Fertilizers:

I fertilized with Espoma Organic Lawn Starter (3-6-3) when I seeded in Sept. Then in mid-Oct., I used Espoma Fall Winterizer (8-0-5). I also put down granular calcitic lime. Now, I don't remember exactly where, but I read recently on one of the cooperative extension links here (or was it G-Man), that lime and fertilizer shouldn't be applied at the same time? Why is this? This spring I applied corn gluten for crabgrass control which is 9-0-0, so I figured that was a big enough shot of N. I got it down a little late (should be applied when forsythia blooms), so crabgrass control, while noticeable, was paltry and unimpressive.

Grubs and diseases:

I do have Japanese beetles and I have seen the grubs in the soil when I dig new gardens, but not very many grubs are visible. I applied Milky Spore this fall as I applied this with success when I lived in NJ. I should note that while I had a serious Japanese beetle infestation in NJ, growing a lawn there was like shooting fish in a barrel - I threw seed down, watered daily until grass came up, then forgot about it and it thrived!

G-Man,

The UMass Extension uses the Modified Morgan extractable. They recommended 10 lbs of lime per 100 sq ft to bring the pH from 5.5 to 6.0, but said not to apply more than 5 lbs per 100 sq ft at a time - one app in mid-fall, the other in early spring. I have to admit I missed the spring app. Yes, 5.0 is very low, but as I mentioned before, it's the 5.0 area where the grass is doing best! Looking at the nutrient availability chart, it looks like P availability drops drastically when pH drops from 6.5 to 6.0. Could this have inhibited root development? I planted a tree in one of the plots back in April and grass roots were still only around 3" deep.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You should apply the lime they recommend. I think you should use dolomatic lime.

Topsoil on top of sand is normally a problem with water. Capillary action keeps the topsoil too wet and it won't enter the sandy area. There are a few YT videos showing this in a lab (clear view windows).

Your P is low in 3 areas.

Potassium is low in all areas.

A balanced fert might be a good easy option for this soil.

Sulfur is low in some areas. SOP would be my choice to address the sulfur and potassium with one product.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


> You should apply the lime they recommend. I think you should use dolomatic lime.
> 
> Topsoil on top of sand is normally a problem with water. Capillary action keeps the topsoil too wet and it won't enter the sandy area. There are a few YT videos showing this in a lab (clear view windows).
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply, G-Man! Yes, dolomite would probably be a good thing for this soil. I probably read too many cautionary articles about Mg toxicity when using dolomite. In my case, I'm thinking I should only use it in the areas with low Mg and use calcitic lime elsewhere?

I'm generally low in just about everything except iron and manganese. So a balance fertilizer seems like it would be the best thing. I generally like Espoma's line of organic fertilizers. Garden Tone (3-4-4) looks fairly balanced. It also has K in the form of SOP which supplies 2% S. It also has 5% Ca and 1% Mg:

https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/#tab2

FYI, here are some attached pics of my soil. The first two pics are the backyard area, the third is the frontyard area. Note in the frontyard area, it looks a bit more loamy:







As you can see, the 2-3 inch topsoil/compost layer in the first two pics all but disappeared into the subsoil. I can't say I ever saw water not drain through that topsoil/compost layer. If anything, it drained and desiccated way too fast.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> FYI, here are some attached pics of my soil. ...
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, the 2-3 inch topsoil/compost layer in the first two pics all but disappeared into the subsoil. I can't say I ever saw water not drain through that topsoil/compost layer. If anything, it drained and desiccated way too fast.


Yup, that looks like a typical native New England soil -- mostly sand and not much organic matter (OM).

However, my biggest impression is that it looks _really dry_. Having any grass growing actively in soil with that little moisture isn't going to work out. One either needs to plant a grass type that you plan to have go dormant in dry periods (and can tolerate that), or the lawn will need to have supplemental watering.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > FYI, here are some attached pics of my soil. ...
> ...


Thanks for the reply Ken-n-Nancy!

As fast as that soil drains, regular irrigation would run me into the poor house, LOL!

I have no problem with grass (or other perennial ground cover) going DORMANT as long as it doesn't DIE. Many people around here let their lawns go dormant in hot, dry weather, but when more regular rain returns, they green up again. I always thought that tall fescues were the most heat and drought tolerant of the cool season grasses. I have toyed with the idea of planting zoysia, but it is very aggressive once established and invades garden beds as well as neighbors' yards! I have thought maybe buffalo grass, but the seed is very expensive and reading around, it seems very tricky to get started. Do you have any other ideas?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Grass types in sunny (failed areas):
> 80% KY-31 tall fescue ... 10% HB30 Hybrid Bluegrass ... 10% White Dutch clover


In general, those should survive just fine in sunny areas, so being in the sun wasn't the primary cause of their trouble.



Deadlawn said:


> Grass types in part shady (successful area):
> 60% Outside Pride fine fescue blend (40% Zeal creeping red fescue, 40% Seducer Chewings fescue, 20% Eureka II hard fescue) - Success!
> 30% KY-31 tall fescue - Failed.
> 10% White Dutch clover - Success!


Those should all do fine with partial shade, too. The fine fescue, in particular, is one of the most shade-tolerant lawn grasses.



Deadlawn said:


> Watering:
> Being that I seeded the previous year, maybe I figured I didn't need to baby it anymore and figured a once a week deep watering would be adequate. Did I possibly do something equivalent to throwing a young teenage kid out on the street?


Here's where I think your problem happened. A first year lawn is more susceptible to drought than a multi-year established lawn. A fall seeding is much better off than a spring seeding, but still isn't as well equipped to handle drought as say a 3-year-old lawn.

However, in a "normal summer" I think your approach would have been okay. Maybe not the best, but okay.

Rather, the problem this summer was that the summer was not just "abnormally dry" but was in "severe drought" or "extreme drought" for most of Massachusetts this year. Check out the images at the drought.gov site for Massachusetts. (Sample below.)










Most years, you probably would have gotten away with the watering you did. However, not this year. In a sandy soil like yours (and ours), the "deep and infrequent" watering of once a week doesn't work, as the soil can't hold a week's worth of water. There are other good articles on the site on the topic of evapotranspiration (ET)-based watering. Basically, your soil probably can only hold 2-3 days of water in summer conditions. There's also no point in applying an inch of water to your soil, as probably more than half of that water will descend beyond the root zone and just be wasted. (Well, not really wasted, as it will go back to the water table, but it won't help your grass!)

This isn't just me saying that this is a "drier than usual" summer -- check out the image below, also from the drought.gov site for Massachusetts. You'll see that this summer has been one of the worst three years for drought in MA since 2000. And one of those years was primarily a winter/spring drought. However, this year has not been anywhere near as bad as the summer/fall/winter of 2016-2017.

For any of the years from 2003-2015 or the prior three summers from 2017-2019 you probably would have been fine.












Deadlawn said:


> Mowing height: I only mowed once in fall after seeding at 3 1/4" which is my highest setting. I started spring mowing at 2 3/4", then raised back up to 3 1/4" by May. Reading around here, I see that short mowing when young is good because it encourages tillering. Live and learn! I will do that with my new seed stands here this fall. I can go down to 2 1/4", but the next step down 1 3/4" causes some scalping over uneven terrain. Frequency? Well, I have to admit I don't always follow the 1/3 rule, but I don't think I have ever cut off more than 1/2. I always mow in the late afternoon or evening as I have read that grass recovers better overnight when it's cooler.


Mowing the new grass when lower would have been helpful. However, your mowing practices sound generally reasonable. Following the 1/3 guideline (I hesitate to call it a rule) more often would help, though. Mowing in late afternoon or evening is a good idea. I tend to plan my mowing to finish around sunset.



Deadlawn said:


> Fertilizers: I fertilized with Espoma Organic Lawn Starter (3-6-3) when I seeded in Sept. Then in mid-Oct., I used Espoma Fall Winterizer (8-0-5). I also put down granular calcitic lime. Now, I don't remember exactly where, but I read recently on one of the cooperative extension links here (or was it G-Man), that lime and fertilizer shouldn't be applied at the same time? Why is this? This spring I applied corn gluten for crabgrass control which is 9-0-0, so I figured that was a big enough shot of N. I got it down a little late (should be applied when forsythia blooms), so crabgrass control, while noticeable, was paltry and unimpressive.


Your fertilizer choices seem fine. One thing to note, though, is the amount of fertilizer performed. Telling the type of fertilizer doesn't necessarily indicate that the amount of fertilization is appropriate. Generally, the "bag rate" for most lawn fertilizers usually applies about 0.75#N/ksqft. People seem to get confused thinking that a "high-nitrogen" fertilizer like 32-0-4 applies more nitrogen to their lawn than applying a biosolid like Bay State Fertilizer (4-3-0). However, at "bag rate" both give about the same amount of nitrogen to the lawn. If the owner applies a "half-app" of 32-0-4 compared to a "full app" of 4-3-0, the "half-app" of 32-0-4 will apply less nitrogen.

That said, lawns are hungry in their first year. I think that nitrogen requirements for a first-year lawn are probably double the fertilizer requirements for an established lawn. I think this is pretty much independent of grass type. Note that this doesn't mean any application of fertilizer should be double the amount, but rather that the frequency should be twice as often.

Regarding lime and fertilizer being applied at the same time, most traditional lawn fertilizers one can buy at a "big box store" use urea as the nitrogen source. Nothing really bad will happen when applying lime and urea at the same time (it's not like there's a toxic reaction between them), but the urea will have significantly more volatilization to the atmosphere if applied at the same time as lime. It would be better to first apply the urea and water it in thoroughly (1/2" of water) before applying the lime no sooner than the next day. Standard recommendation is to wait two weeks between urea fertilizer and a lime application.

Again, whether the 9-0-0 is a "big enough shot of N" has everything to do with how much of it you applied. You could be applying straight 46-0-0, but if it you put down only 2 pounds of 46-0-0 over 10,000 square feet, that's less than 0.1# N / ksqft, which probably won't even have a discernible effect. However, if you had applied 100 pounds of 9-0-0 over those same 10,000 square feet, that's 0.9# N / ksqft, which would definitely be a "big enough shot of N."



Deadlawn said:


> Grubs and diseases:
> I do have Japanese beetles and I have seen the grubs in the soil when I dig new gardens, but not very many grubs are visible. ...


The ability to tolerate grubs in the summer again has to do with how stressed the grass is for water. In a wet summer, a lawn can tolerate a fair number of grubs. In a dry summer, just a few grubs can be too many.

Anyway, I've rambled on for more than long enough... I've completely used up my "lawn buddies" time allotment for tonight!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> I have no problem with grass (or other perennial ground cover) going DORMANT as long as it doesn't DIE. Many people around here let their lawns go dormant in hot, dry weather, but when more regular rain returns, they green up again. I always thought that tall fescues were the most heat and drought tolerant of the cool season grasses. I have toyed with the idea of planting zoysia, but it is very aggressive once established and invades garden beds as well as neighbors' yards! I have thought maybe buffalo grass, but the seed is very expensive and reading around, it seems very tricky to get started. Do you have any other ideas?


As I mentioned in my post above, I've used up my "lawn buddies" time for tonight, but just a quick comment on the above.

There are different aspects to "drought tolerance." Turf pros often distinguish between different ways that turf handles drought to include drought tolerance, drought resistance, drought escape, drought endurance, drought evasion and others. The terms, however, aren't applied consistently with uniform definitions.

Suffice it to say, that some grasses can "stay green" longer into a period of drought than other grasses. For example, being deep-rooted helps, because the grass can reach moisture deeper in the soil. Shallow-rooted grasses like _Poa annua_ and _Poa trivialis_ are some of the first to show the effects of a lack of water. Deep-rooted grasses like tall fescue stay green the longest.

However, once the grass is no longer able to get water at root depth (whatever that is for the kind of grass), different grasses react differently. For example, _Poa annua_ generally just dies. _Poa trivialis_ will go dormant, and wait for conditions to improve. Kentucky bluegrass has an excellent dormancy response, going dormant and waiting for conditions to improve. Perennial ryegrass has a poor dormancy response and won't last long after running out of water. I've never grown tall fescue, but my understanding is that even though it has the deepest roots and will stay green the longest, that once it does run out of water, it doesn't last very long before dying.

So, even though tall fescue will stay green the longest before going brown, it won't tolerate being that way very long before dying.

PS: An excellent article on drought and different grass types: Drought Effects on Turf in the Landscape from University of Nebraska.


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## dwaugh (Aug 25, 2020)

Another possibility is that you have/had lots of lots of _Poa trivialis_ or other warn season grasses in your yard. Two years ago I casually over seeded with KBG rye mix in the fall and seemed to look great. I didn't kill off the old grass, and didn't really prep all that much. I think the _P. trivialis_ came out of dormancy and I thought that was the new growth from the seeds planted. Then came late summer (the next year) and all that stuff just dies.... Then in late September and October is comes back, and although lighter green, actually looks fairly good.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Your fertilizer choices seem fine. One thing to note, though, is the amount of fertilizer performed. Telling the type of fertilizer doesn't necessarily indicate that the amount of fertilization is appropriate. Generally, the "bag rate" for most lawn fertilizers usually applies about 0.75#N/ksqft. People seem to get confused thinking that a "high-nitrogen" fertilizer like 32-0-4 applies more nitrogen to their lawn than applying a biosolid like Bay State Fertilizer (4-3-0). However, at "bag rate" both give about the same amount of nitrogen to the lawn. If the owner applies a "half-app" of 32-0-4 compared to a "full app" of 4-3-0, the "half-app" of 32-0-4 will apply less nitrogen.
> 
> That said, lawns are hungry in their first year. I think that nitrogen requirements for a first-year lawn are probably double the fertilizer requirements for an established lawn. I think this is pretty much independent of grass type. Note that this doesn't mean any application of fertilizer should be double the amount, but rather that the frequency should be twice as often.
> 
> ...


Very good points here about bag rates. So I went online and checked on the bag rate for conventional Scott's Turf Builder (32-0-4 with an app rate of 2.5 lbs per 1000 sq ft) as opposed say the Espoma Organic Fall WInterizer (8-0-5 with an app rate of 12 lbs per 1000 sq ft). The Espoma calls for almost 5x as much product to be spread than Scott's. So if I follow bag rate, am I effectively applying equivalent to 40-0-25 of Scott's which would actually be a higher N punch and much, much higher K than the Scott's, although a slower release N?

What's more, if you look at the weed preventing rate of Espoma Corn Gluten (9-0-0 at 20 lbs per 1,000 sq ft), it is double the feeding rate (10 lbs per 1,000 sq ft). Whoa! That is a whole heck of a lot of N - like more than double the rate of Scott's Turf Builder! Granted it is slow release and would probably feed for the rest of the year. Can too much N burn even if it is slow release, or will it just nurse?



ken-n-nancy said:


> As I mentioned in my post above, I've used up my "lawn buddies" time for tonight, but just a quick comment on the above.
> 
> There are different aspects to "drought tolerance." Turf pros often distinguish between different ways that turf handles drought to include drought tolerance, drought resistance, drought escape, drought endurance, drought evasion and others. The terms, however, aren't applied consistently with uniform definitions.
> 
> ...


Excellent article, thanks! It is apparent that I needed to let that tall fescue mature lomger before "throwing it out of the nest". That being said, I have to wonder if the topsoil/compost top layer I used to seed on caused roots to stay local where nutrients are rather then explore downward. As I mentioned earlier, when I dug in the area to plant a tree in April, the tall fescue roots were only around 3" deep then and that was 7 months after seeding.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Very good points here about bag rates. So I went online and checked on the bag rate for conventional Scott's Turf Builder (32-0-4 with an app rate of 2.5 lbs per 1000 sq ft) as opposed say the Espoma Organic Fall WInterizer (8-0-5 with an app rate of 12 lbs per 1000 sq ft). The Espoma calls for almost 5x as much product to be spread than Scott's. So if I follow bag rate, am I effectively applying equivalent to 40-0-25 of Scott's which would actually be a higher N punch and much, much higher K than the Scott's, although a slower release N?


Yes. It's kind of like thinking one "can't get drunk on beer."

Sure, drinking 8 ounces of beer won't make you drunk even though drinking 8 ounces of vodka definitely will.

However, it's not just the % of alcohol in the drink that gets you intoxicated -- it's the combination of the alcohol % with how much you consume. So, if you only have 1 shot of vodka, you might be okay to drive home. However, if you drink a 12-pack of beer, you won't even be able to walk to a cab.

A better way to work out how much fertilizer to use is to figure out the amount of nitrogen being applied in pounds per thousand square feet (#/ksqft).

Scott's Turf Builder, 32-0-4, at bag rate of 2.5#/ksqft, would be 0.32 * 2.5 = 0.80 #N /ksqft and 0.04 * 2.5 = 0.10#K /ksqft.

Espoma Organic Fall Winterizer, 8-0-5, at a bag rate of 12#/ksqft, would be 0.08 * 12 = 0.96#N / ksqft and 0.05 * 12 = 0.60#K / ksqft.

So yes, at the application rates indicated on the bag, the application of Espoma (8-0-5) applies more *20% more nitrogen* than Scotts Turf Builder (32-0-4), and *6 times as much potassium*!

So, when you hear somebody say that "you should apply some fertilizer with a high N number to your lawn" because you need nitrogen, that's a sign of either somebody that doesn't really know much about applying fertilizer, or is dumbing things down for you. Either way, you'll be better off getting advice from somebody else.



Deadlawn said:


> What's more, if you look at the weed preventing rate of Espoma Corn Gluten (9-0-0 at 20 lbs per 1,000 sq ft), it is double the feeding rate (10 lbs per 1,000 sq ft). Whoa! That is a whole heck of a lot of N - like more than double the rate of Scott's Turf Builder! Granted it is slow release and would probably feed for the rest of the year. Can too much N burn even if it is slow release, or will it just nurse?


Yes, even slow release fertilizer can cause nitrogen burn if too much is applied. To further complicate things, most "slow release" fertilizers are NOT 100% slow release, but a combination of slow release and fast release. In the USA, nitrogen fertilizers typically contain the % of slow release written clearly on the label. (It may be a law that they must do so, but I'm not positive about that.)

Generally, the standard recommendation for the "safe amount" of fast-release nitrogen is 1.0#N/ksqft applied at one time. Overlaps in spreading might be trouble, though, if that isn't spread evenly. With real even application, one might be able to "get away with" 1.5#N/ksqft applied at one time, but overlaps in spreading will surely cause trouble at that rate. When applying fast-release nitrogen fertilizers, the safer thing to do is to make lighter, more frequent, applications.

If really trying to push growth on new KBG, it is common practice to apply 0.5#N/ksqft every week and water the fertilizer in immediately after application. This won't burn the grass if done properly and is quite safe -- although you better enjoy mowing if applying 2#N/ksqft each month to KBG!



Deadlawn said:


> Excellent article, thanks! It is apparent that I needed to let that tall fescue mature longer before "throwing it out of the nest". That being said, I have to wonder if the topsoil/compost top layer I used to seed on caused roots to stay local where nutrients are rather then explore downward. As I mentioned earlier, when I dug in the area to plant a tree in April, the tall fescue roots were only around 3" deep then and that was 7 months after seeding.


You're welcome for the article. Yes, you needed to "baby" the tall fescue for its first summer.

I hadn't seen the bit about your observation about the tall fescue roots only being about 3" deep when you dug in April. They probably got longer by June, but it's possible they could have stayed in the good soil up top.

If that's the case, then tall fescue with 3" roots will actually do worse than KBG or PRG with 3" roots. *Tall fescue actually has higher water requirements than KBG*. It's just that with roots that are usually about 2x to 4x longer, it can get that extra water from the soil. However, if the roots get bound to the top 3" of soil, it will still need extra water, but without the deep roots to go get it...


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Ken-n-Nancy,

Thanks again! I'm still wrapping my head around all this. I'll reply within:



ken-n-nancy said:


> Yes, even slow release fertilizer can cause nitrogen burn if too much is applied. To further complicate things, most "slow release" fertilizers are NOT 100% slow release, but a combination of slow release and fast release. In the USA, nitrogen fertilizers typically contain the % of slow release written clearly on the label. (It may be a law that they must do so, but I'm not positive about that.)
> 
> Generally, the standard recommendation for the "safe amount" of fast-release nitrogen is 1.0#N/ksqft applied at one time. Overlaps in spreading might be trouble, though, if that isn't spread evenly. With real even application, one might be able to "get away with" 1.5#N/ksqft applied at one time, but overlaps in spreading will surely cause trouble at that rate. When applying fast-release nitrogen fertilizers, the safer thing to do is to make lighter, more frequent, applications.
> 
> If really trying to push growth on new KBG, it is common practice to apply 0.5#N/ksqft every week and water the fertilizer in immediately after application. This won't burn the grass if done properly and is quite safe -- although you better enjoy mowing if applying 2#N/ksqft each month to KBG!


The slow and fast release percentages aren't always stated in those words, but they specify "water soluble" and "water insoluble".

Turf Builder claims 9% slow release, so that would mean about 28% of the N is slow release and 72% is fast release.

With the Espomas, each one apparently is a little different. I assume that is because they vary the percentage of the N sources which can be poultry manure, feather meal, bone meal, alfalfa or corn gluten.

Corn gluten apparently has the highest amount of water insoluble and lowest amount of water soluble - a good thing considering how much they say to apply!! Label below:

https://www.espoma.com/product/weed-preventer/#tab2

So for pre-emergent weed control, the bag rate is 20#/1000sqft. So that is about 0.15# fast release N/1000sqft and about 1.6# slow release N/1000sqft. How long do you think that slow release N will last? Do you think that amount can burn even though it's slow release? And can't too much N in spring inhibit root growth? I would rather sacrifice some green to get strong healthy roots.

Garden Tone is the most balanced fertilizer of theirs I could find:

https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/#tab2

2.2% slow release N, 0.8% fast release. They don't give a app rate for lawns, but their other lawn fertilizers are 10-12#/1000sqft.



ken-n-nancy said:


> You're welcome for the article. Yes, you needed to "baby" the tall fescue for its first summer.
> 
> I hadn't seen the bit about your observation about the tall fescue roots only being about 3" deep when you dug in April. They probably got longer by June, but it's possible they could have stayed in the good soil up top.
> 
> If that's the case, then tall fescue with 3" roots will actually do worse than KBG or PRG with 3" roots. *Tall fescue actually has higher water requirements than KBG*. It's just that with roots that are usually about 2x to 4x longer, it can get that extra water from the soil. However, if the roots get bound to the top 3" of soil, it will still need extra water, but without the deep roots to go get it...


Interesting the reason some plants are "drought tolerant" is because of deep roots while for others it is because the foliage holds more water as in succulent plants.

So for the tall fescue I planted this fall, I need to baby it for the year of 2021 after which hopefully I can send it on its own.....well......sort of. I have a feeling the other mistake I made last year was seeding too thick and therefore causing too much competition for nutrients and water. I'm wondering if that's one reason the roots didn't push down deeper. It could also be since P is the first of the macro nutrients to become unavailable in acidic soil, the grass was unable to use any P for root growth in my 5.5pH soil. I just applied 50#/1000sqft dolomitic lime since my Mg is low too. According to my cooperative extension, I need to apply 100#/1000sqft of lime to get from 5.5 to 6.0, but no more than 50# per app with the other 50# next spring.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Corn gluten apparently has the highest amount of water insoluble and lowest amount of water soluble - a good thing considering how much they say to apply!! Label below:
> 
> https://www.espoma.com/product/weed-preventer/#tab2
> 
> So for pre-emergent weed control, the bag rate is 20#/1000sqft. So that is about 0.15# fast release N/1000sqft and about 1.6# slow release N/1000sqft. How long do you think that slow release N will last? Do you think that amount can burn even though it's slow release? And can't too much N in spring inhibit root growth? I would rather sacrifice some green to get strong healthy roots.


So, the short answer is that I haven't yet considered applying corn gluten to our lawn, so I haven't investigated how long it would take it to break down and how long it would last. I could speculate, but anything I would have to say about it would be just that -- speculation, rather than informed knowledge.

I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but it's just outside my area of knowledge. Maybe some others with experience with it can lend their perspectives.



Deadlawn said:


> Interesting the reason some plants are "drought tolerant" is because of deep roots while for others it is because the foliage holds more water as in succulent plants.


Yeah, there's a lot of different ways plants cope with "drought" conditions, and not all grass types are the same in that respect. One has to be careful, as sometimes advice that people provide is based upon experience with a specific grass type, which may or may not be appropriate for other types.


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## massgrass (Aug 17, 2017)

Just a side note from someone in the same general area.

I used to have a problem where red thread/pink patch would kill a bunch of my grass in May/June and my lawn would never look right until September when I could dethatch and overseed to get things looking good again. I'd be in decent shape until the next spring when the same thing would happen again.

Three years ago I decided to do something about it and started doing some reading. I found lots of good info in various places online and decided to get my soil tested. It turned out that even though I fertilized regularly, my potassium levels were in the toilet and potassium helps the grass deal with stress (disease, drought, etc.). I've been doing 2+ extra applications of sulphate of potash (SOP) per year since then and my problems with red thread have become nothing more than a minor annoyance.

This year I fell into the "extreme drought" category in the map above, and my lawn continued to be lush and green (with irrigation) while many neighbors had a sea of brown dead or dormant grass. Basically, I bet that you will have much more success if you can get your macronutrients and ph nailed down. Fixing my potassium levels increased my lawn's ability to handle stress from disease and drought big time.

FWIW, I was telling my wife that I wished I had the guts to nuke our front lawn and renovate it with high quality KBG. A few days later, my neighbor told me that my lawn looked like a carpet. I still want to nuke it


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> So, the short answer is that I haven't yet considered applying corn gluten to our lawn, so I haven't investigated how long it would take it to break down and how long it would last. I could speculate, but anything I would have to say about it would be just that -- speculation, rather than informed knowledge.
> 
> *I'm not trying to be unhelpful, but it's just outside my area of knowledge. * Maybe some others with experience with it can lend their perspectives.


Oh please, don't kick yourself. You have been VERY helpful! Many thanks!


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

massgrass said:


> Just a side note from someone in the same general area.
> 
> I used to have a problem where red thread/pink patch would kill a bunch of my grass in May/June and my lawn would never look right until September when I could dethatch and overseed to get things looking good again. I'd be in decent shape until the next spring when the same thing would happen again.
> 
> ...


This is great to know. I am hoping that once I get my soil in better shape, grass will tolerate heat and drought better. I just applied dolomitic lime at 50 lbs/1000 sq ft. I need 100 lbs, but was advised to never apply more than 50 lbs per app. I will follow up with another 50 lbs next spring. This will hopefully bring me from 5.5 up close to 6.0 which will help uptake of nutrients. I am also going to apply a fairly balanced organic fertilizer over all areas (3-4-4) which also has 5% Ca, 1% Mg and 2% S:

https://www.espoma.com/product/garden-tone/#tab2

I applied this organic lawn starter fertilizer (3-6-3) on new seeded areas at bag rate which is 12 lbs/1000 sq ft:

https://www.espoma.com/product/lawn-starter/#tab2

That comes to 0.36 lbs-0.72 lbs-0.36 lbs per 1000 sq ft. So if I cover the area again with the 3-4-4 at the same rate, that will bring my P up to 1.2 lbs/1000 sq ft. Would that be too much P that it might burn?

In hindsight, my failures this past summer were probably due to a number of factors:

1) Drought and believing that I could get away with irrigating like this was "adult grass" because I had seeded more than 8 months before.

2) Seeding too heavy.

3) Soil.

Roots still being shallow after 8 months was probably due to 2 and 3.


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