# Bullseye is done (but there's still a little bit left as of 11/2019)



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I spoke with Stephen at Hogan, and asked about Bullseye, because last year he told me it looked like that was the last of it. He confirmed he can't order any more of it, and suggested other varieties by Burlingham to replace it. It's doubtful it'll ever be grown again in the future. I'm hoping for Bullseye 2 in the future, but he did not know what the name of the next cultivar by that company would be (but he said he had seen that that brand is working on one and have entered it into NTEP as an experimental variety).

My back lawn has two TTTF and three KBG cultivars. I don't want to add new varieties to it. Bullseye is now no longer available, though I have a bit left for repair projects this Spring (Poa Triv spots). The other cultivar is no longer available either, but there's a direct replacement for it with the same name (one letter different). I can't tell the difference after using it, so that's fine. As for the KBG in my mix, one of my 3 cultivars (Rugby II) was apparently not grown in 2018 and no one has it anymore as of now (including Hogan). That could mean it's on the way out also. One of my other cultivars is apparently also possibly on the way out (America). And the third one is in tight supply (Bewitched). Only one of the five (FIrecracker SLS) is readily available currently, and that's the one that's a new version of the previous TTTF cultivar I originally used (Firecracker LS).


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm wondering if I should start buying my seed now. I'm surprised that Bewitched is on the way out.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Ouch! I'm surprised about Bewitched, too. Especially since it's a great performing and popular cultivar.

You might want to consider Spyder LS for a replacement TTTF cultivar. It has good ratings for our region. I've had good luck with growing it at work under adverse conditions.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I'm wondering if I should start buying my seed now. I'm surprised that Bewitched is on the way out.


Bewitched is *not* on it's way out. It's just out of stock at some dealers right now.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> Ouch! I'm surprised about Bewitched, too. Especially since it's a great performing and popular cultivar.
> 
> You might want to consider Spyder LS for a replacement TTTF cultivar. It has good ratings for our region. I've had good luck with growing it at work under adverse conditions.


Again, Bewitched isn't being discontinued. Dodged a bullet, huh?

America and Rugby II are the ones I use that might be on the way out. No one knows for sure. I might try calling Simplot to ask about Rugby II since this is the slow season and they might be willing to talk.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> You might want to consider Spyder LS for a replacement TTTF cultivar. It has good ratings for our region. I've had good luck with growing it at work under adverse conditions.


I've never tried Spyder LS, but its sister cultivars, Firecracker SLS and the Titaniums (which I also use), are currently readily available. As long as Firecracker SLS is available, I'm good as far as Tall Fescue for the backyard.

I think I'd be more inclined to replace Bullseye with Firebird 2, Turbo, Hotrod, GTO, or Hemi, which are from the same company, if I had to find a replacement. I'd have no issue doing that in the front, since it's a mix of so many cultivars already.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Green said:


> Again, Bewitched isn't being discontinued. Dodged a bullet, huh?


Whew, definitely! I have plenty of supply now, but I will eventually need some more.

On a side note, UPS tracking is showing my 50/50 blend of Mazama and Beyond should arrive tomorrow. I plan to add Bewitched to make small batches of an equal 3 way blend.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> On a side note, UPS tracking is showing my 50/50 blend of Mazama and Beyond should arrive tomorrow. I plan to add Bewitched to make small batches of an equal 3 way blend.


Cool! As evident from Kove's lawn, Mazama and Bewitched blend well. Mazama appears to be the compact America counterpart to Bewitched in terms of color. There wasn't one for the longest time. People used to suggest Rhapsody before Mazama. But if you need a really dark compact America, I think Mazama is the only option.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, ever used Bedazzled? If America goes away, I'm trying to find the closest equivalent.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI,

Also, with Bullseye gone, and if both Rugby II and America also somehow end up being phased out, I think my strategy for repairing the back would be this:

Remove plugs from other areas, transplant them into the area needing repairs, spray them with PGR, and then overseed that plugged area with Firecracker and Bewitched. That should get everything to match pretty well.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

Wow... As a relative newbie to TTTF cultivars, this seems like one of the more "well known" varieties.

Wonder why?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

craigdt said:


> Wow... As a relative newbie to TTTF cultivars, this seems like one of the more "well known" varieties.
> 
> Wonder why?


I thought so, too. I thought it would be around a really long time. I started using it in 2012. I'm not sure how long before that it was sold. Maybe someone else here does. I actually thought it was going to be the "Midnight KBG" of TTTF, but apparently it doesn't work that way with TTTF. They seem to push out a lot of the older varieties every so often as they create new ones.

What could happen (and I'm no expert on this stuff, so I have no idea how likely it is) is that if/when the rights to it expire, another company could take it over (probably a big box label, or Scotts, so they can use it in their stuff).

Since it was ranked #1 in the NTEP in the past for overall quality, I'm surprised to see it going away, too. Having just looked at the latest NTEP today, I noticed it was rated as good or better in many cases than the other varieties by Burlingham (like Turbo, Hemi, etc.)

I'm even more surprised that America KBG *might* be on the way out. I mean, it has a whole major category named after it (Compact America). I'm kind of skeptical about this one being phased out, honestly. Maybe it just wasn't grown this past year (not even sure if that's true...just speculating).


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Green said:


> @Chris LI, ever used Bedazzled? If America goes away, I'm trying to find the closest equivalent.


No, I haven't used Bedazzled. I believe jglongisland had used it at his old house. To my understanding, it has a noticeably lighter genetic color, but have not seen it in person.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Green said:


> @Chris LI,
> 
> Also, with Bullseye gone, and if both Rugby II and America also somehow end up being phased out, I think my strategy for repairing the back would be this:
> 
> Remove plugs from other areas, transplant them into the area needing repairs, spray them with PGR, and then overseed that plugged area with Firecracker and Bewitched. That should get everything to match pretty well.


I like that strategy. Do you have a small area that you could use as a mini-sod farm? If so, you could pull a few good plugs this season and start them together to have an area to harvest from, when needed.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Chris LI,
> ...


Yeah, I'm not sure why more people with mixes don't use this method. I think the trick would be taking enough plugs, seeding only lightly around them, and then fertilizing it well so it fills in.

I don't really have an area to use like that, so I would have to pull from elsewhere in the back lawn, and then let the existing KBG spread back in/existing TTTF tiller back into the areas. Better than mismatched reseeded sections, though. (Why the heck is my better lawn in the back, which people hardly see, lol?) Also, by pulling from only the back, the chance of introducing more crap (Triv) would be lower. Of course, the new seed could have it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Chris LI, ever used Bedazzled? If America goes away, I'm trying to find the closest equivalent.
> ...


America is lighter, too. Lighter than everything else in my mix. Rhapsody would have been a better choice color wise, but I didn't know better back then. Hopefully Rugby II will become available again the future. I remember a period when Bewitched wasn't available for at least half a year, either, a couple of years ago. I wish I had known and bought a bit more Rugby a few months ago before it all sold out. My seed is getting old. Not sure if it will even work this Soring. I will test it.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I don't know if I've seen it documented anywhere, but I recall hearing the germination rates decrease over a span of years. My gut tells me that the decrease isn't linear (again, I don't have evidence), so If your seed is less than 5 years old, you may stand a chance, if you seed at a progressively heavier rate, depending on the age of the seed.

Your seed test is a good idea. I would try it in a few different cups with varying amounts of seed in each.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Green said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


I have Bedazzled in my backyard mix. Mixed with Bewitched and Midnight. I think it looks nice, but still young. Should be able to see how much Bedazzled really took hold come spring green up. I would look at Blue Note and Bedazzled as America replacements. NTEP has genetic color on both to be darker than America, but still lighter than Mazama. Blue Note scores really well in other areas, too. Especially in the NE. Other than color, it looks hard to beat.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

On a side note, how long does seed typically stay good for during storage?


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> On a side note, how long does seed typically stay good for during storage?


I bought KBG seed last fall that was from 2016(maybe 2015?) and it germinated great. So at least 2 years. But judging by weed seed that stay viable in the soil for decades, I suspect seed stored in ideal conditions will go much longer with the caveat that your germination rate might decrease over time. You can just increase the seeding rate to make up for that.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > On a side note, how long does seed typically stay good for during storage?
> ...


Thank you. I was just curious because if some of these popular and favored cultivators start to disappear, I'd like to stock up(within reason) on some seed.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+, I think 3 years after buying, germination tends to decrease a bit. My seed is like 6 years old, so who knows if it'll work. It worked last year but germination was very low. I had some fail after having it 5 years.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Green this is good to know. I'm not sure if I would hold on to seed that long, probably 2-3 years. I want to get my hands on bewitched just in case they decide to discoutninue.

Have you ever used SSS tall fescue?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green this is good to know. I'm not sure if I would hold on to seed that long, probably 2-3 years. I want to get my hands on bewitched just in case they decide to discoutninue.
> 
> Have you ever used SSS tall fescue?


Bewitched has been sold out for extended periods before, so if you need some, probably best to get it this Spring.

One of the guys (I must have called about 10 places the other day) said the seed growers work on cleaning the rest of their seed all Winter, so more seed often becomes available between March and May. Of course, the sod growers are buying their seed in the Spring from the same places we buy ours, so that's probably why it gets sold out sometimes.

I've never bought from SSS. Seems kind of expensive, even with shipping included.

I will say, Pawnee Buttes is very underrated. Extremely professional about how they handle phone calls, and all their turf seed is sod certified.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green this is good to know. I'm not sure if I would hold on to seed that long, probably 2-3 years. I want to get my hands on bewitched just in case they decide to discoutninue.
> 
> Have you ever used SSS tall fescue?


You may have to compromise to reach your price point. Purchasing in a higher volume will generally net a lower price. The trick is to guesstimate what you'll need over 2-3 years, considering price increases and availability. It would be nice to have the talents of Karnak.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Talked with Stephen today because I was looking for Ryegrass (and they currently only have the PhD blend with "Karma" and two other varieties in it).

Asked about some other things, including what caused Bullseye to be removed from the market, and he said various factors that affected the health and senescence of the mother plants resulted in too low a seed yield. He sympathized, and said he felt it's quite a loss in the Tall Fescue market, because it was rated so highly in many ways, including brown patch.

I would say anyone looking for an equivalent and who needs seed, give them a call at Hogan, and see what they feel is a good replacement from what they have. That, and consult the NTEP.

Edit: look what I uncovered: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aosca.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2018GS_Report_FINAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiVhL_oxJfhAhVNnJ4KHW9EAs0QFjAMegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw0xONuIwMHSdLWe64aNXy7L

Search that pdf for Bullseye.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

There's an interesting entry in the latest NTEP Gray Leaf Spot data (2018):
*"Bullseye LTZ"*

https://www.ntep.org/data/tf18/tf18nj2_gleafspot_18t.txt

I googled it but nothing else came up except that report.

What could this be? A new version of Bullseye? Note the regular Bullseye is also listed, and received a lower score.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I looked up "LTZ" but couldn't' find anything as to what it might stand for or any mention of it in relation to Tall Fescue. I'd guess something related to "Lateral Tillering", but could be wrong.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Oregonseed, this is where the LTZ is from. See my last two posts here. As a big fan of Bullseye, I'm hoping this is the rumored new version of it. Very unhappy they stopped growing Bullseye, so I can hope.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> For what it's worth, vista seed that distributes mazama may still sell direct to customers if you buy 25lb bags or 50lb. It was $4 a lb with me picking up locally here in oregon, so you'd need to add shipping.


I don't think Bullseye has anything to do with Vista. It's a Burlingham variety.

Also, TTTF doesn't have official sub-categories like KBG.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

For what it's worth, vista seed that distributes mazama may still sell direct to customers if you buy 25lb bags or 50lb. It was $4 a lb with me picking up locally here in oregon, so you'd need to add shipping.

As for specific varieties, isn't it better to just buy varieties of the same class? Like mazama is a compact America, when it's discontinued I'll find the new best American compact.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I talked with Stephen at The Hogan Company today. They currently have a small amount of Bullseye, for anyone who is looking to buy some. This is likely to be the last of it, though.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Final reminder: Just in case anyone is still looking for it and didn't see the post the other day, the gist of it is there's still a little bit of Bullseye TTTF seed left at Hogan, (or at least was, as of last Friday).


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## MDJoe (Sep 16, 2019)

What makes Bullseye so great compared to, say, Regenerate, Traverse 2, or 4th millennium?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

MDJoe said:


> What makes Bullseye so great compared to, say, Regenerate, Traverse 2, or 4th millennium?


You'd have to look at the NTEP to determine that for your region. In my region at least, it scored really well consistently. It was also overall #1 rated (average of all regions) for a number of years.

The real reason I was looking for it, is that I already have it as one of two TTTF cultivars in my blend in the back, and like to keep things consistent-looking if possible.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Rutgers did a trial that included the new "Bullseye LTZ" cultivar, and it ranked really well:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Phillip_Vines/publication/336349831_Performance_of_Tall_Fescue_Cultivars_and_Selections_in_New_Jersey_Turf_Trials_2018/links/5d9d044d299bf1c36302033a/Performance-of-Tall-Fescue-Cultivars-and-Selections-in-New-Jersey-Turf-Trials-2018.pdf?origin=publication_detail

I'm hoping it'll go on sale in 2020, or at least will be planted for future seed production. Guess we'll have to see...


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