# N-EXT Air8 question...



## BC7269

I'm thinking of buying and applying this product. Probably do the entire yard but certain areas need more than others is my reason for this. I've mechanically aerated last two years in the Fall. Can you apply this product at any time of the season or need to follow the same rules as mechanical? Preferably Fall and maybe Spring if needed?


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## Budstl

Here's the lable on the bottle.



http://www.greenecountyfert.com/project/n-ext-air-8-liquid-aeration/


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## GoPre

Just to hop on to this thread, I am also interested in using this, so I also appreciate any info.

I have been a huge advocate of mechanical aeration and have done it every fall, but I am thinking my Triv problem is associated with core aeration, and it hurts my feelings.


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## Colonel K0rn

I've been using AIR-8 biweekly on my lot at 9oz/M. I can say that I've seen an increase in the overall health of the dirt, because every time I apply the products, I get "castings" on the surface of the soil. I have areas where there's no type of vegetation that's growing and I see more activity in those areas than on the areas that I have turf. I'm going to share a picture of an area where I see this type of "casting". It's more noticeable on the bare spots.

Here's a picture of an area in my front that was riddled with poa, and it's near the sidewalk and the driveway. It's a tough spot for grass to grow, because it was pretty compacted. Zoom in on the picture, next to the dead poa plant, and you'll see what I'm pointing out. 









That being said, I've mentioned that even though I can't see what's happening at the microscopic level, a prudent person would say that there's something happening to the soil. There's controversy about whether or not this is going to do everything that it's claiming to do, but I can say that I've been satisfied with the results that I've seen on my lot. I have seen the water drain a little faster on the back yard than the front, since that's one of the main areas that was problematic for me last year. Right now, I'm waiting for the water from Alberto to stop falling, and what's already on the ground to go away.


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## social port

I've also been looking into this product and am going to pull the trigger quite soon.
Although not in the OP's set of questions, I'll go ahead and point out that this chemical 'aeration' will not disturb the PreM barrier as mechanical aeration does.


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## Austin

I bought the soil activator pack from The Lawn Care Nut a few weeks ago. I am going to start using it this weekend over the entire lawn. I might do a test in the back and split a small piece I have to see if I can see results. I will update!


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## Rucraz2

I got the rgs package myself. I have 1 acre so I asked pete how much it would cover. He said 147k sq ft. Well thats total of all 4 jugs. So I put half the rgs and air 8 down. Which was less than half the recommended rate. And will be doing the rest as the summer comes into play. Small apps. Im sure it will benifit it. But I'm sure I can replicate it for a lot cheaper. Not saying the exact product, but to an extent to make almost the same effects. Which im not sure you will really see from the naked eye. From what ive seen and heard. It basically comes back to your grass. You can throw everything you can at your lawn. But if you start with a less desirable grass it's like polishing a turd.


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## Rucraz2

Im also not dropping it on a section to see if there's a difference.


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## 20jlr

following..... Just started taking care of myself. Not sure i will save any money over the pros but i really enjoy it.


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## nocsious

I'm interested but so sceptical of liquid aeration products and humic acid in general. In my case lowering the pH seems to have helped get better color as the iron is no longer locked up.


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## g-man

^ plus what happens when you stop to apply them. The calcium is still there in the soil.


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## Austin

@Rucraz2 
If the RGS minimum rate is 3oz per 1,000 sq ft. Then 1 gallon = 128 ounces. That being said 128/3 would be like 42.6 round up to 43. I'm pretty sure one acre is around 45,000 sq ft. Maybe he meant 47,000 sq ft? I'm confused. I really hope I didn't screw up tonight! LOL!!!


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## Killsocket

This whole product line goes through a fan tip nozzle? Wouldn't AIR-8 be needing to hit soil and not grass? Am I misunderstanding something?


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## Rucraz2

I think he was meaning with all 4 jugs together equals that much. 
RGS 1 gallon
N-Ext Humic12 1 gallon
N-Ext Micro Greene 0-0-2 1 gallon
N-Ext Air8 0-0-5 1 gallon

That being said. I saw it said 6oz min. Thats a little over 21.3 sqft is all. X 4 jugs in the biostimulant package = 85sqft?? I only put down half the rgs and bio8 so far. So thats 1/4 the minimum app. I was trying to spread it out a bit, but based on the coverage, I don't think I will be purchasing again. I will comment again at the end of the year, but I probably should be out of the running for having an accurate review.


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## Colonel K0rn

Killsocket said:


> This whole product line goes through a fan tip nozzle? Wouldn't AIR-8 be needing to hit soil and not grass? Am I misunderstanding something?


You can apply any of their products through a watering can/hose end sprayer/high volume sprayer, whatever type of equipment that you have. I apply my products via my Chapin 24V sprayer with XRC TeeJet nozzles which have a fine spray pattern, because I'm spraying other contact products like fertilizer, iron, insecticide, PGR, etc. I've used the flood jet nozzles that are on my Agri-Fab sprayer to apply the product as well. *It's not so much a function of how the product is applied being applied to achieve results, but rather the rate of the application for the product over the area that you're treating. *It's easier for me to spray with the TeeJets because I know what my rate of application is because they're calibrated to me.

Also, if you apply the product, and it's irrigated, the product is going to be on the leaf surface and washed into the soil, similar to tracking dye, or PreM. Once it's in the soil, it starts working.

That being said, I got some FloraGreene that I'm looking forward to using, and I'll be putting that in my hand watering can.


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## Killsocket

Colonel K0rn said:


> Killsocket said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole product line goes through a fan tip nozzle? Wouldn't AIR-8 be needing to hit soil and not grass? Am I misunderstanding something?
> 
> 
> 
> You can apply any of their products through a watering can/hose end sprayer/high volume sprayer, whatever type of equipment that you have. I apply my products via my Chapin 24V sprayer with XRC TeeJet nozzles which have a fine spray pattern, because I'm spraying other contact products like fertilizer, iron, insecticide, PGR, etc. I've used the flood jet nozzles that are on my Agri-Fab sprayer to apply the product as well. *It's not so much a function of how the product is applied being applied to achieve results, but rather the rate of the application for the product over the area that you're treating. *It's easier for me to spray with the TeeJets because I know what my rate of application is because they're calibrated to me.
> 
> Also, if you apply the product, and it's irrigated, the product is going to be on the leaf surface and washed into the soil, similar to tracking dye, or PreM. Once it's in the soil, it starts working.
> 
> That being said, I got some FloraGreene that I'm looking forward to using, and I'll be putting that in my hand watering can.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all this information. I will be putting some RGS and Air-8 down tomorrow and feel better armed with this info. Thought about putting weed killer in there, but I want to spot spray mostly for that.


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## beastcivic

Rucraz2 said:


> I think he was meaning with all 4 jugs together equals that much.
> RGS 1 gallon
> N-Ext Humic12 1 gallon
> N-Ext Micro Greene 0-0-2 1 gallon
> N-Ext Air8 0-0-5 1 gallon
> 
> That being said. I saw it said 6oz min. Thats a little over 21.3 sqft is all. X 4 jugs in the biostimulant package = 85sqft?? I only put down half the rgs and bio8 so far. So thats 1/4 the minimum app. I was trying to spread it out a bit, but based on the coverage, I don't think I will be purchasing again. I will comment again at the end of the year, but I probably should be out of the running for having an accurate review.


The mix rates are how many ounces of N-Ext product to a gallon of water. And each mixed gallon (water plus N-Ext measured amount....3-9oz depending on the product being applied) will cover 1,000 sq ft. So at a 6oz rate, you're looking at 21,333 sq ft of coverage.


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## Rucraz2

^
So let me get this straight. You put 6oz in one gallon of water then use that as your concentrate?
If this were true. Your logic in this would cover 455sq ft with one bottle. In not thinking this is correct.


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## beastcivic

@Rucraz2 Nope, you're missing what I'm saying. You take 6 ounces of RGS concentrate, or whatever N-Ext product you're looking to apply. Mix 6 ounces of the concentrate into 1 gallon of water. You now have a diluted gallon, techncially you have 134 ounces of liquid (128 ounces for the gallon of water, 6 ounces of N-Ext product). You spread that 134 ounces across 1,000 square feet of lawn. So, with your 1 gallon of concentrate of N-Ext product, if you're using a 6 ounce mix rate, the math is 128/6= 21.3333 gallons of diluted mix. That's 21.3 applications (21.3 diluted gallons) over 1,000 sq ft per gallon of diluted liquid. So, if you have a 1,000 sq ft yard, it's 21.3 applications. If you have a 10,000 sq ft yard you have 2.13 applications. If you have a 21,000 sq ft yard, you have essentially one application. I hope that makes sense?


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## Rucraz2

Ok, so looks like we were both on the same page. Or maybe I didnt clarify 21.3(k). I think I forgot the "k" sqft in everything I was saying. So take all 4 gallons at 6oz rate and it covers 85.2(k) sq ft. Given you do 6 oz for all 4 different biostimulants.


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## beastcivic

Ah, then yes, on the same page. All 4 gallons of concentrate, mixed at a 6 oz concentrate per gallon of water would yield ~85k sq ft coverage.

I will say though that the suggested mix rates are not all 6 oz, some are 3 oz per application, some are 9 oz. If I'm remembering correctly, there's a suggested application schedule (timing, frequency, and application mix rate) for that bio stimulant pack (the four 1-gallon jugs) that will cover just over 10,000 sq ft for one year. It could definitely get expensive if you have a large yard.


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## Rucraz2

Yeah, Pete told me 147k, but I guess I didn't check the rates on the other two I didn't throw down yet. I am also throwing down other apps of humic, fulvic and kelp and yucca/sles. So going with quarter apps of the rgs is probably to my advantage.


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## Dico112lr4

Anyone else have decent success with Air8? I put it down a month ago but don't have too much to compare it to. My lawn seems a little less compacted. This video is pretty impressive if it was all from the Air8 https://youtu.be/N0bfHsVoZWk


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## Colonel K0rn

I'm going to post this in my journal as well.

I was on the Discord server yesterday, and shared some pictures of my front and back yard with all of the rain we've been having in Coastal GA. Both of these areas would hold water for almost a week after just 0.5" of rainfall. This week, we've received over 3" of rain. It's been interesting to see what's been going on, and I wanted to share the pictures with you guys.

7/17 - we got 1.52" of rain total. The storm dumped 1.25" of rain in 10 minutes. It was a massive downpour.





After that storm was over, here's what the front yard looked like.







Two hours later







. I was able to mow the front the next day. Back yard didn't need a cut.

7/18 - we got 0.87" of rain. I didn't take any pictures, but I did have water standing in the front and back for a day. It's a lot of rain for my lot to take, considering my drainage problems. My lot's just jacked regarding grades and flow of water.

7/19, we got another 0.65" of rain. My pool's been overflowing for the past 2 days.

Yesterday, we didn't get any rain, and I snapped 2 pictures of the front and back. You can see the clippings in the back and the front to see how far out the water was when it was standing. Today, it's completely dry in the front and the back.
















I can say with confidence that using AIR-8 has helped me with my overall health of the soil. If you only knew how frustrating it was to watch my hard work literally go under water every time it rained, and not know when I was going to be able to mow; hell not having to use a canoe or wash the dogs every time they went out, you'd understand. And the fact that *I got a quote for over 10K just to install catch basins for the whole lot*, but not really have any guarantees that would fix my problem? Yeah, I'll take AIR-8 any day over having to stroke that check. I'd rather remodel the kitchen or add another bedroom.


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## JohnP

@Colonel K0rn that's awesome!


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## TrialAndError

@Colonel K0rn That's Awesome! How long have you been using Air-8? What's your application rate and how often do you apply it?


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## Delmarva Keith

Colonel K0rn said:


> I'm going to post this in my journal as well.
> 
> I was on the Discord server yesterday, and shared some pictures of my front and back yard with all of the rain we've been having in Coastal GA. Both of these areas would hold water for almost a week after just 0.5" of rainfall. This week, we've received over 3" of rain. It's been interesting to see what's been going on, and I wanted to share the pictures with you guys.
> 
> 7/17 - we got 1.52" of rain total. The storm dumped 1.25" of rain in 10 minutes. It was a massive downpour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After that storm was over, here's what the front yard looked like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Two hours later
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I was able to mow the front the next day. Back yard didn't need a cut.
> 
> 7/18 - we got 0.87" of rain. I didn't take any pictures, but I did have water standing in the front and back for a day. It's a lot of rain for my lot to take, considering my drainage problems. My lot's just jacked regarding grades and flow of water.
> 
> 7/19, we got another 0.65" of rain. My pool's been overflowing for the past 2 days.
> 
> Yesterday, we didn't get any rain, and I snapped 2 pictures of the front and back. You can see the clippings in the back and the front to see how far out the water was when it was standing. Today, it's completely dry in the front and the back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can say with confidence that using AIR-8 has helped me with my overall health of the soil. If you only knew how frustrating it was to watch my hard work literally go under water every time it rained, and not know when I was going to be able to mow; hell not having to use a canoe or wash the dogs every time they went out, you'd understand. And the fact that *I got a quote for over 10K just to install catch basins for the whole lot*, but not really have any guarantees that would fix my problem? Yeah, I'll take AIR-8 any day over having to stroke that check. I'd rather remodel the kitchen or add another bedroom.


In addition to what you're doing, have you thought about more sand? Several tons of sand would not hurt that problem and won't cost $10k :nod:

I had a similar issue and did not want to dig up the lot to install drainage. Sand / peat mix resolved it and it was cool season turf. The surface water is now submerged under the sand and the plant crowns grow above it and don't drown. Was the best performing area in the recent drought. Bermuda would love the sand even more.


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## Colonel K0rn

TrialAndError said:


> Colonel K0rn That's Awesome! How long have you been using Air-8? What's your application rate and how often do you apply it?


Thanks, I'm impressed with the results that I've been getting with the products. I detailed my plans for the feeding and application of products as a variant of MightyQuinn's program, which put in this post. If you don't want to click, here's what I decided to go with:


> My application plan will be:
> RGS at 6oz/M biweekly until the temp reaches 85°F, then reduce to 3 oz/M
> Humic 12 at 1 gal/Acre biweekly
> Air-8 at 6 oz/M biweekly (until we reach the rainy season, then reduce to 3 oz/K) I think this is going to be the biggest helper in conditioning the soil/humus layer that I've got and helping the groundwater percolate
> 18-0-1 Greene Punch at 16 oz/M Bi-monthly
> Milorganite bimonthly on the months I don't spray liquid fert. I've got 10 bags stacked up in the second picture, along with the bag of Lesco fert on top(that's going to be the first fert app in 2 weeks)


The only change for N source was switching over to urea and spoon-feeding the turf via spray application, and cutting the rate to 0.25 #N/M for the entire the lawn this season. I have been spraying the urea since May, and that has helped have a controlled growth, along with PGR. I've done 1 Milo app so far this year.

As far as soil health goes, I've got another few weeks to go before I pull some soil to have it analyzed again, and I'm curious to see what that's going to tell me. I've got to get some MicroGreen into the dirt!

@Delmarva Keith Oh, I've got designs on putting down about 12 yards of sand, but the weather has got to get right. The low spot in the front will no longer be the low spot once I get done. I desperately want to sand, but I've got to find the time to take care of it, and Mother Nature is about to kick into overdrive with rain and hurricane season. I'm hoping I can get one done this year, but if not, I'll settle for a full yard of grass coverage over what I had last year, which was a yard full of weeds, and swampy land.


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## Lawn_newbie

@Colonel K0rn I am shocked you do not have a huge sedge issue.


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## Colonel K0rn

Lawn_newbie said:


> @Colonel K0rn I am shocked you do not have a huge sedge issue.


I used to, but that's what Prodiamine, Dismiss and Certainty are for.  I've still got some that is persistent, but it gets addressed when it pops up.


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## steensn

I thought this was a great overview on what it is doing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnCwJYP0gNo


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## TrialAndError

Should AiR8 be watered in.


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## Hordak

TrialAndError said:


> Should AiR8 be watered in.


Not sure myself.

Just got my bio stim pack which included air 8 and 3 others. I put the whole mix down today. Had a normal tank sprayer was not impressed on its fan. However it's applied perhaps a little unevenly.

I got some before photos and a video of the whole lay out.

I'll post results but I also put down some milo.


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## steensn

Hordak said:


> TrialAndError said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should AiR8 be watered in.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure myself.
> 
> Just got my bio stim pack which included air 8 and 3 others. I put the whole mix down today. Had a normal tank sprayer was not impressed on its fan. However it's applied perhaps a little unevenly.
> 
> I got some before photos and a video of the whole lay out.
> 
> I'll post results but I also put down some milo.
Click to expand...

Just did the exact same thing this week. But I used the Ortho end sprayer and found it a great option. Puts it down with water.


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## social port

@TrialAndError my understanding is that it does not have to be watered in.
Best advice is to apply the product with a lot of water-that is, although the product doesn't need to be watered in, it is best to use a lot of water while the Air-8 is being applied. I believe I set my ortho dial n spray to 2oz. It takes longer to get the product down, but you get a high amount of water to a low amount of product.


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## social port

steensn said:


> I thought this was a great overview on what it is doing:


Thanks for posting this.

It sounds like he is saying that there are two ways that 'aeration' happens when using this product
1) by breaking bonds in the soil which, in turn, creates more space
And 
2) roots drive deeper, thereby creating more space for water and air.
I don't mean to be critical, but I don't understand why he doesn't spell this out more clearly and concisely.

And, judging by the presentation in this video, one would think that the aeration happens because of the HA. This raises the question of what makes this product so different from others in the line such as Humic 12.

@g-man he addresses the concern about pH here around 11:20 mark. He suggests that so little product is applied that it will have no appreciable effect on pH.


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## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> Thanks for posting this.
> 
> It sounds like he is saying that there are two ways that 'aeration' happens when using this product
> 1) by breaking bonds in the soil which, in turn, creates more space
> And
> 2) roots drive deeper, thereby creating more space for water and air.
> I don't mean to be critical, but I don't understand why he doesn't spell this out more clearly and concisely.
> 
> And, judging by the presentation in this video, one would think that the aeration happens because of the HA. This raises the question of what makes this product so different from others in the line such as Humic 12.
> 
> @g-man he addresses the concern about pH here around 11:20 mark. He suggests that so little product is applied that it will have no appreciable effect on pH.


I had the same thought as you. Everything the guy says in that video is gobbledygook. I've seen some impressive results with the product so it must be doing something but without a control, lots of sizzle without any steak and I'm inceasingly curious about how exactly it works.

I have some areas of localized dry spot where aggressive aeration and even soil surfactants don't seem to fully resolve. If the air8 stuff wasn't so darn expensive I would just try it and see what happens. Any university / extension testing out there anywhere? If I "knew" it was effective then the price is a bargain. As it stands, I'd rather stick with tried and true aeration and compost even though that can be a lot of work.


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## social port

Delmarva Keith said:


> without a control, lots of sizzle without any steak and I'm inceasingly curious about how exactly it works.





Delmarva Keith said:


> Any university / extension testing out there anywhere?


One would think that he would be quick to provide information if universities were investigating Air-8 vs alternative products vs control. I do remember him showing a picture of an A-B comparison of aerated turf vs Air-8'ed turf, but that doesn't meet your criteria. In the video above he does list demonstration of efficacy as one the prerequisites to getting this product off the ground, but he never gives a clear statement that a measurable effect has been obtained through experimental investigation. He also mentions a goal of demonstrating a visible difference in soil/turf treated with Air-8, but he also speaks about the difficulty of quantifying change, so I am not sure what to think.

As to how the Air-8 process works, I think there are some better clues, especially if we give a charitable interpretation to the information he is presenting. In fact, 1 (bond breaking in soil) and 2 (root drive)above could be viewed as complementary processes of "breaking humic bonds away" from carbon. Space is created by encouraging this bond breaking process to unfold in the soil. Then how do we account for root drive? Under the best circumstances, humic makes phosphorous in the soil more available (phosphorous is released), thereby pushing root growth. But even absent of the phosphorous, it stands to reason that increasing space in the soil helps roots drive down more easily. And if roots are driving, they are also introducing more space (or loosening things a bit) in the process.

I don't know if this is coherent, but this seems to be the drift of his line of thought.

But even with this charitable interpretation, a question remains: How is AIR-8 different from Humic 12 (etc), given that all of the aeration is proposed to occur because of humic acid?



Delmarva Keith said:


> I'm inceasingly curious about how exactly it works.


Me as well. I'm not trying to be critical--just curious.


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## g-man

After reading SJL post that the product had the effect of breaking up the soil, I started some research. Ive watched most of the videos that just promote the product as a magic potion that will solve all of your lawn problems. The videos use a lot of fancy words without saying anything substantial.

From the videos, the air-8 product is really a by product of the extraction of humic from leonardite. The intent is to create RGS. I *think* that the 8% humic is not the key to this product. It is the other stuff from the extraction that is high in pH and causes a chemical reaction with the soil. I have a hunch on what it is, but I need to research some more. I'm on vacation this week and business trip the next, either I have plenty of time to research or none at all.

I will update once I have something more clear to report.


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## osuturfman

g-man said:


> After reading SJL post that the product had the effect of breaking up the soil, I started some research. Ive watched most of the videos that just promote the product as a magic potion that will solve all of your lawn problems. The videos use a lot of fancy words without saying anything substantial.
> 
> From the videos, the air-8 product is really a by product of the extraction of humic from leonardite. The intent is to create RGS. I *think* that the 8% humic is not the key to this product. It is the other stuff from the extraction that is high in pH and causes a chemical reaction with the soil. I have a hunch on what it is, but I need to research some more. I'm on vacation this week and business trip the next, either I have plenty of time to research or none at all.
> 
> I will update once I have something more clear to report.


It's Potassium Hydroxide (KOH). Being an alkaline salt, It is the most widely used extractant for leonardite. As you alluded to, it is a high pH compound which can cause issues if/when some of the humic products are tank mixed with pesticides in particular. That fact is reflected in the pH of the Air8 product (13.8). This does not make it a bad product, just stating facts of how it's built.

The theory of how the product is supposed to work is intriguing, however, like @Delmarva Keith and @social port mentioned there some empirical evidence missing here to demonstrate the results. The idea is that the KOH in the product reacts with soil humus, breaking bonds, to create micropores in the soil. These pores then give way to air, water, roots.

In the absence of good data, there are very straightforward and relatively inexpensive ways to measure this. The most simple way to measure the true response from the products, IMHO, is testing bulk density and infiltration/percolation rates on an undisturbed core sample against a check. Take that a step further and do randomized plots with Humic-12 and Air8 against a check. The elements of the hypothesis are:


Bulk density on Humic-12 plots should decrease over time with the addition of the product and its role in increasing OM levels. Infiltration and percolation rates should be increased over and above the check plots.

Bulk density on Air8 plots should decrease over and above Humic-12 plots with added carbon/increased OM _and_ reaction between the KOH and soil humus creating more micropores in the soil structure. Infiltration and percolation rates should be increased over and above Humic-12 plots.

Of course, these results could then be evaluated against the benchmark of the check plots.

With bulk density, we are measuring how much soil (typically measured in grams) is in a given volume (typically measured in a cubic centimeter). As more pore space is opened, whether it be natural, chemical, or mechanical, the amount of soil in that given volume should decrease since the pore space has no weight.

Infiltration and percolation rates are measured and expressed in inches of water per hour a soil can absorb (infiltration) and how quickly it moves down through the soil (percolation).

One more important aspect of this experiment would be to have a physical analysis and particle size analysis completed on the soil in the trial. It would be great to try it on several different types of soil to examine the relationship between the response of each product and the physical structure of a particular soil.

There's some steak for the grill, now we just need someone to cook with sizzle.


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## g-man

@osuturfman I agree the absence of good controlled data makes all the marketing claims hard to believe.

KOH has to be one of the main contributors. I found this research from Zimbabwe The purpose of the study was to get rid of sludge but their observations are interesting. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773



> The hydroxides of Na and K affect aggregate stability and clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse double layer is increased by the increased concentration of monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and (iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act (Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This
> encourages the clay to swell and disperse.


What concentrations of KOH would be safe to apply to a lawn at 9oz/M? or Something else added (carbon or humic) that makes it safe to apply? KOH is lye which is a corrosive, toxic and needs to be handled with care. Reading the SDS from Air-8 it makes it sound to be very safe and harmless. The only warning is to keep it away from calcium, but that's what most of our soil do have. I think the chemical reaction is happening with calcium. I'm a mechanical engineer and I struggled with chemistry classes; but a lot of my co-workers are chemical engineers. I need to invite some for lunch to discuss and maybe use their lab equipment to analyze air-8. I will continue the research.


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## Green

I'm one of those who wants to see independent experimental data and real world results of AIR-8 before I consider using it. It's the only product in the line that interests me.

@g-man, I too think the KOH has to be a major player, because otherwise the humic acud of the other NEXT products would have to be responsible for the effect, and clearly it's not.

My chemistry background is not nearly good enough, either, to try to figure the exact theory and reactions out in a timely fashion. Definitely see what your chemical engineer co-workers think. If any of them are into gardening, they might already have an idea about the reactions involved. Anything with a high pH and -OH group is going to tend to be reactive in acidic solutions, but that makes me wonder if KOH has different effects in different soils.

Also, the low concentration is probably what keeps it from being corrosive. I still wouldn't want to use it without gloves and eye protection.


----------



## Methodical

TrialAndError said:


> Should AiR8 be watered in.


What's interesting is I've asked this question of Pete, LCN and a few others that push the N-Ext products and all I've heard are crickets. I guess I will have to go straight to the source to find out. Oh, I'd use the Ortho hose end sprayer to apply this product that way you get more water volume and can get the product to the dirt.

Pete stated that he was going to conduct some tests, so I will await the result before going with this product. At this point, it's hard for me to believe this product works. But, if it proven to work and can replace the physical core aeration job, it will be a game changer. For now, I will be renting the regular 'ole core aerator this season to aerate my lawns.

Just One Man's Opinion.


----------



## Green

I still like to look for studies that might be relevant. I'll keep editing this post and put whatever I find here.

https://doi.org/10.1080/00380768.1979.10433159


----------



## steensn

Thoughts on potential test, help me design it out.

- Soil - 
Shoveled from the same location in my backyard, where the water pools, unbroken as best I can.

- 4 pots -

1) Control - only water
2) Air8 - only Air8 as prescribed dilution
3) Humic - only Humic as prescribed
4) Liquid Soil Loosener - see picture

Create spray bottle for each at prescribed dilution, even the water only control so it gets the same amount of liquid.

- Test -

Run 1/2 gallon of water through each, time it till the water is no longer pooled. First time through is baseline. Weigh before & after to see how much water it retains in the soil (instead of just running out the bottom).

Treat once a week for ____ (a long time?) and record drain time and retention.

THOUGHTS?


----------



## g-man

I've been thinking of doing a test in my yard. I would just use the yard and apply it to zones. I would create 4' x 4' zones and apply each product to each per their instructions (at least one control zone). I would then pull core samples with a pro plugger at 30day after application Maybe reapply and pull another sample at another 30 days (60days total). I would treat all the areas as I normally do and keep logs of what I applied (NPK). Ideally all of these zones are in the same irrigation zone and same sun pattern, so they get things fairly constant (the only variable being the product).

You could take pictures of the soil structure when you pull the cores, and weight them and write your observations. Maybe do the "screwdriver" test in each zone. Osuturfman approach is the right one, but it is harder to do.


----------



## osuturfman

g-man said:


> Osuturfman approach is the right one, but it is harder to do.


Unless you're the manufacturer. Fund a mutli-year study, publish the results, prove the product works or make it better.


----------



## Ridgerunner

osuturfman said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Osuturfman approach is the right one, but it is harder to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're the manufacturer. Fund a mutli-year study, publish the results, prove the product works or make it better.
Click to expand...

How true. but, but, but then what if the study shows the product doesn't perform as advertised? Then again, what are the odds of that happening?


----------



## osuturfman

Ridgerunner said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Osuturfman approach is the right one, but it is harder to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you're the manufacturer. Fund a mutli-year study, publish the results, prove the product works or make it better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How true. but, but, but then what if the study shows the product doesn't perform as advertised? Then again, what are the odds of that happening?
Click to expand...

You would be shocked at how much data, generated by pest/fert manufacturer funding, never sees the light of day.

Again, I'm not knocking Greene County Fertilizer. I'm just like the old ladies in the commercial asking "where's the beef?"


----------



## g-man

I always think of field of dreams, "if you build it, they will come". If the product is good, then it won't need so much promotion. Some members have claimed improvement, but is it worth the cost? Does it last?


----------



## Turfguy93

I believe it's all snake oil. If you want deep roots it comes down to your soil composition and your cultural practices. If you want good roots I believe that you should have good fertility in the fall and keep it dry in the spring. The plant(grass) will grow deeper roots in spring when it is under limited drought stress due to the production abscisc acid. Roots will follow air channels. If you want deeps roots deep tine aerate in the fall. Good cultural practices go a long way


----------



## osuturfman

g-man said:


> I've been thinking of doing a test in my yard. I would just use the yard and apply it to zones. I would create 4' x 4' zones and apply each product to each per their instructions (at least one control zone). I would then pull core samples with a pro plugger at 30day after application Maybe reapply and pull another sample at another 30 days (60days total). I would treat all the areas as I normally do and keep logs of what I applied (NPK). Ideally all of these zones are in the same irrigation zone and same sun pattern, so they get things fairly constant (the only variable being the product).
> 
> You could take pictures of the soil structure when you pull the cores, and weight them and write your observations. Maybe do the "screwdriver" test in each zone. Osuturfman approach is the right one, but it is harder to do.


30-day intervals may be too frequent although maybe not at the beginning of the experiment. A&L Labs in Fort Wayne will do a disturbed bulk density test (not going to be as accurate for this experiment) and a particle size analysis for $30 plus shipping per sample. This would provide at least some quantitative data to benchmark and analyze.

For the infiltration and percolation tests, you could simply do a bucket test following these steps:

1.) Cut the bottom out of a 5 gallon bucket. Starting 1.5" from the bottom edge, use a ruler to mark each inch from 0-12 on the inside of the bucket.
2.) Twist and push the bucket down 1.5" into the soil on each plot so that ground level is even with 0".
3.) Fill the bucket to 12" of water and start your timer for 1 hour.
4.) Take notes on your draw down every 15 minutes by estimating the water depth in the bucket.
5.) Prepare your Pro Plugger with the 4" collar.
6.) After 60 minutes, record your measurement from the 12" mark down to the surface of the water. This is your infiltration rate expressed in inches per hour (think precipitation rate).
7.) Once your infiltration rate has been recorded, remove the bucket and quickly use your Pro Plugger to pull a plug at a 4" depth. 
8.) Use your ruler to measure from the surface to the depth at which your soil is saturated. This measurement is your percolation rate expressed in inches (of depth) per hour.

Perhaps you could do this method every 30 days and then sample with A&L in the spring and fall each year.

While this method isn't super scientific, it would show if there were significant differences in the performance of each treatment respectively. Going back to the steak metaphor: while you may want the filet, sometimes the sirloin special is just as tasty.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Some very interesting input from members here, and food references are making me hungry.  I'm going to see if I can get the tensiometer again from @BenC and probe around my yard again. I got some data from areas that I probed where I couldn't get further than 2" down, but other areas I had no problem burying it to the hilt. Incidentally, some of the areas where the probe wouldn't go into the ground very far were the areas that didn't drain very well. If it was to be easier this time, that would make my steak sizzle.


----------



## g-man

@Colonel K0rn If you stopped the air-8 applications, will it return to the previous state?


----------



## Ridgerunner

http://soilquality.org.au/factsheets/bulk-density-measurement


----------



## social port

@osuturfman 
I was thinking that your design would not be terribly difficult to pull off--well, part of it.
1. I was reading about methods of measuring infiltration and percolation earlier today, but the method you outline above seems to kill two birds with one stone.
What I am not clear about is the physical analysis and particle size analysis. Is there a way do to this from 'home'? Or would this be part of the design that gets left out (in the act of taking the sirloin special)?

2. Is there a readily available strategy for determining whether obtained differences between conditions are due to chance vs experimental factors?

3. Also, there are at least two questions floating around this experiment: Does Air-8 work, and how does Air-8 work (if it does)?
For the former, wouldn't it be better to measure (via percolation and infiltration) air-8 against aeration against control? And for the latter, would it not be more direct to test for the presence of KOH in AIR-8 (assuming that can be done)?

I'm not trained in agricultural sciences, so I am just trying to understand and also imagine myself doing a test like this.


----------



## osuturfman

social port said:


> @osuturfman
> I was thinking that your design would not be terribly difficult to pull off--well, part of it.
> 1. I was reading about methods of measuring infiltration and percolation earlier today, but the method you outline above seems to kill two birds with one stone.
> What I am not clear about is the physical analysis and particle size analysis. Is there a way do to this from 'home'? Or would this be part of the design that gets left out (in the act of taking the sirloin special)?


In lieu of the $18 Physical Analysis from A&L Labs, you could do a simple jar test to determine sand, silt, clay percentages of your soil. See this quick tutorial video below if you're unsure how to perform that test.








social port said:


> 2. Is there a readily available strategy for determining whether obtained differences between conditions are due to chance vs experimental factors?


Absolutely! Taking benchmark measurements *prior* to your treatments should be enough to show a causal relationship between treatments and results.



social port said:


> 3. Also, there are at least two questions floating around this experiment: Does Air-8 work, and how does Air-8 work (if it does)?
> For the former, wouldn't it be better to measure (via percolation and infiltration) air-8 against aeration against control? And for the latter, would it not be more direct to test for the presence of KOH in AIR-8 (assuming that can be done)?


Here are my basic questions to test in this experiment and some notes about each:

1.) What effect does Humic-12 have in changing the bulk density, infiltration rate, and percolation rate of the soil?

- Bulk density should decrease with rising OM levels as result of Humic Acid apps.

- A decrease in bulk density means the soil particles aren't as tightly packed together thus, more pore space for air, water, roots.

2.) What effect does Air8 have in changing the bulk density, infiltration rate, and percolation rate of the soil? How do these results differ from Humic-12?

- John Perry, GCF Founder and President, mentions in the video posted earlier in this thread and seen below about how he conceptualized including KOH as a reactant in Air8 to increase its reactivity in soil. The link below begins as he starts talking about his thought process in Air8's product development.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnCwJYP0gNo&t=7m14s
[/media]

- As a result of the role KOH should play in creating micropores, the bulk density should be lower while the infiltration rate, and percolation rate should be higher when compared to Humic-12 and the untreated check. This is how one could tell if the KOH packaged with Humic/Fulvic acids made a significant difference over standalone Humic Acid product.



social port said:


> I'm not trained in agricultural sciences, so I am just trying to understand and also imagine myself doing a test like this.


We are all just dirt farmers, man. If we screw up, grass seed is cheap. :thumbup:


----------



## Colonel K0rn

g-man said:


> @Colonel K0rn If you stopped the air-8 applications, will it return to the previous state?


I can't say man. I honestly am not inclined to find out either. I'm just biding my time here until I can move West, and be done with this place.


----------



## social port

thanks, @osuturfman .

So, the addition of KOH is no mystery here. 
I've watched that video about 5 times now; I hear him mention phosphorous and calcium, but I still don't hear him mention KOH. Either I have poor concentration, or it must be a learned sub-text (i.e., which you can hear but I can't).

So, if the extra ingredient is KOH, then the question is: does it provide 'aeration' (via micropores)beyond what can be obtained with humic acid alone. And are Air-8 and Humic-12 better than doing nothing at all (i.e., are they effective?).

This is all very helpful.


----------



## g-man

KOH is one of the methods to extract HA from leonardine (patented method). The others use sodium which is not nice with the lawn. There is another video (1hr long) that someone did an interview to John and he explained it, plus Matt (thegrassfactor) also used it in his whiteboard video.

Read the report I quoted. This was just KOH on soil at different soils and rates.



g-man said:


> KOH has to be one of the main contributors. I found this research from Zimbabwe The purpose of the study was to get rid of sludge but their observations are interesting. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hydroxides of Na and K affect aggregate stability and clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse double layer is increased by the increased concentration of monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and (iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act (Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This
> encourages the clay to swell and disperse.
> 
> 
> 
> What concentrations of KOH would be safe to apply to a lawn at 9oz/M? or Something else added (carbon or humic) that makes it safe to apply? KOH is lye which is a corrosive, toxic and needs to be handled with care. Reading the SDS from Air-8 it makes it sound to be very safe and harmless. The only warning is to keep it away from calcium, but that's what most of our soil do have.
Click to expand...


----------



## osuturfman

g-man said:


> KOH is one of the methods to extract HA from leonardine (patented method). The others use sodium which is not nice with the lawn. There is another video (1hr long) that someone did an interview to John and he explained it, plus Matt (thegrassfactor) also used it in his whiteboard video.
> 
> Read the report I quoted. This was just KOH on soil at different soils and rates.
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> KOH has to be one of the main contributors. I found this research from Zimbabwe The purpose of the study was to get rid of sludge but their observations are interesting. http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hydroxides of Na and K affect aggregate stability and clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse double layer is increased by the increased concentration of monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and (iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act (Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This
> encourages the clay to swell and disperse.
> 
> 
> 
> What concentrations of KOH would be safe to apply to a lawn at 9oz/M? or Something else added (carbon or humic) that makes it safe to apply? KOH is lye which is a corrosive, toxic and needs to be handled with care. Reading the SDS from Air-8 it makes it sound to be very safe and harmless. The only warning is to keep it away from calcium, but that's what most of our soil do have.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I listened to the video conversation between @thegrassfactor and John Perry which did shed some more light on Air8. Drainage and moisture management were two of the main benefits discussed in the video. It seems the filet or sirloin version of the experiment would show any significant differences between both products and the control. One might even go a step further and take moisture readings at specific depths to document water holding and dry down response on each treatment.


----------



## Ridgerunner

Why not just fill 3 five gallon buckets with some potter's clay. Buy some sod and wash all of the soil off the sod. Plant the sod, water and fertilize each equally. Add the Air-8 at recommended rates to one bucket and remove 12 2" deep plugs using a soil sampler 2X a year fin the second bucket and use the 3rd bucket as the control. After a year, cut the sod off of each, cross section the clay soil, and see which has the most roots at the deepest level in each. Or you could skip the aeration test and put a wire screen between the sod and clay soil and use the pull tension method employed to determine rooting when the year is up.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Read the report I quoted. This was just KOH on soil at different soils and rates.


Yes, I noticed that. 
If KOH produces these reactions in soil, and air-8 contains KOH, then it seems like predicting the success of air-8 should actually be consistent with what is known about the substances comprising it. In other words, if it is known that air-8 contains a substance that results in "increased inter-particle repulsions" in soil, then I am curious about the basis of the skepticism for this product. Granted we are missing (known) experimental investigation here, but the science seems to say 'yes' to this product, at least in theory.



osuturfman said:


> I listened to the video conversation between @thegrassfactor and John Perry which did shed some more light on Air8. Drainage and moisture management were two of the main benefits discussed in the video. It seems the filet or sirloin version of the experiment would show any significant differences between both products and the control. One might even go a step further and take moisture readings at specific depths to document water holding and dry down response on each treatment.


It has been a few months since I listened to that interview, but I seem to recall Perry saying that there was something unique to the way they processed the humic. It interests me enough to include an alternative humic product in the filet/sirloin design, so that humic 12 can be compared to humic from, say, kelp4less.


----------



## Ridgerunner

> a substance that results in "increased inter-particle repulsions" in soil


That's not a good thing = dispersion. That's why sodic soils perform so poorly.


----------



## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> Why not just fill 3 five gallon buckets with some potter's clay. Buy some sod and wash all of the soil off the sod. Plant the sod, water and fertilize each equally. Add the Air-8 at recommended rates to one bucket and remove 12 2" deep plugs using a soil sampler 2X a year fin the second bucket and use the 3rd bucket as the control. After a year, cut the sod off of each, cross section the clay soil, and see which has the most roots at the deepest level in each. Or you could skip the aeration test and put a wire screen between the sod and clay soil and use the pull tension method employed to determine rooting when the year is up.


Well, that sounds even more doable.

Me: I want to give one these designs a go
Other me: don't over-commit. You're already growing bluegrass in the t zone this year, plus all your other stuff. 
Me: but it won't take that much extra time
Other me: why don't you do it in the spring?
Me: I don't want to wait that long
:?


----------



## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> a substance that results in "increased inter-particle repulsions" in soil
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a good thing = dispersion. That's why sodic soils perform so poorly.
Click to expand...

I'm chipping away at this without much background.
I assumed that inter particle repulsion in the soil meant that the soil was 'opening up' - creating space, so to speak ?


----------



## Green

I would mess around with my own stuff if KOH weren't so dangerous to handle and risky to the environment/lawn.


----------



## g-man

@social port if KOH improves the soil and that's what Air-8 is, then why not just buy KOH at dollars per gallon instead of hundreds? KOH was just treated somehow or at a very low concentration.

Another thing to make you think - patents. I checked the GCF website and their product labels. There is no claim of any. Not a Pending Patent. I checked the patent office and I could not find one filed. If it is such a unique breakthrough product, why no patent?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I would mess around with my own stuff if KOH weren't so dangerous to handle and risky to the environment/lawn.


I applied air-8 early in the morning while still half asleep. I ended up splashing quite a bit on my arm. So far, I haven't noticed any ill effects, but it did stain my arm for a day or two.

I'm going to wear gloves next time.

But FWIW, John Perry mentions feeling the viscousness of air-8 with one's fingers. I've also seen him handle RGS with bare hands (I don't know if that has KOH or not).


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would mess around with my own stuff if KOH weren't so dangerous to handle and risky to the environment/lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> I applied air-8 early in the morning while still half asleep. I ended up splashing quite a bit on my arm. So far, I haven't noticed any ill effects, but it did stain my arm for a day or two.
> 
> I'm going to wear gloves next time.
> 
> But FWIW, John Perry mentions feeling the viscousness of air-8 with one's fingers. I've also seen him handle RGS with bare hands (I don't know if that has KOH or not).
Click to expand...

I think it's such a low concentration it's ok. But if you were to use full strength KOH in a lab and dilute it, you would have to do it under a hood and with gloves, being careful.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> @social port if KOH improves the soil and that's what Air-8 is, then why not just buy KOH at dollars per gallon instead of hundreds? KOH was just treated somehow or at a very low concentration.
> 
> Another thing to make you think - patents. I checked the GCF website and their product labels. There is no claim of any. Not a Pending Patent. I checked the patent office and I could not find one filed. If it is such a unique breakthrough product, why no patent?


No clue. 
To add to that line of thought: if the product 'just works,' why not run studies and make the data available?


----------



## XiolaOne

What's interesting is none of the YouTube guys are doing good testing with data. Either they start them and don't do a follow up or they don't even test it. Pete at GCF even has a soil compaction test tool but he hasn't tested it.


----------



## Green

XiolaOne said:


> What's interesting is none of the YouTube guys are doing good testing with data. Either they start them and don't do a follow up or they don't even test it. Pete at GCF even has a soil compaction test tool but he hasn't tested it.


And that's why this thread exists. We will get to the bottom of it.

Edit: I do believe @thegrassfactor is going to put it through some rigor.


----------



## XiolaOne

He has part one out but that's it. And that video didn't show solid data collecting nor a control area.

The lack of testing is interesting and concerning.


Green said:


> XiolaOne said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's interesting is none of the YouTube guys are doing good testing with data. Either they start them and don't do a follow up or they don't even test it. Pete at GCF even has a soil compaction test tool but he hasn't tested it.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's why this thread exists. We will get to the bottom of it.
> 
> Edit: I do believe @thegrassfactor is going to put it through some rigor.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ridgerunner

social port said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> a substance that results in "increased inter-particle repulsions" in soil
> 
> 
> 
> That's not a good thing = dispersion. That's why sodic soils perform so poorly.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm chipping away at this without much background.
> I assumed that inter particle repulsion in the soil meant that the soil was 'opening up' - creating space, so to speak ?
Click to expand...

IMO, you're standing in front of the correct door upon which his theory his based. BTW, don't bother with my clay experiment, it was only intended to prod the discussion.


----------



## Rucraz2

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would mess around with my own stuff if KOH weren't so dangerous to handle and risky to the environment/lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> I applied air-8 early in the morning while still half asleep. I ended up splashing quite a bit on my arm. So far, I haven't noticed any ill effects, but it did stain my arm for a day or two.
> 
> I'm going to wear gloves next time.
> 
> But FWIW, John Perry mentions feeling the viscousness of air-8 with one's fingers. I've also seen him handle RGS with bare hands (I don't know if that has KOH or not).
Click to expand...

When I applied rgs and air-8 along with my pre-m this spring. I borrowed my buddies sprayer since mine wasnt set up yet. He said he just used it the week before and I was in a hurry. So didnt test it first myself as I have used it and know the calibration. Anywho. Fired it up and basically got a shower all over my entire back side. The plastic Y pipe cracked and that was that. Quick just rinsed off with a hose and replaced it with a garden Y pipe I had and finished spraying while soaking wet. Didnt see any ill effects yet and my hair is still growing like normal. Im sure I have been in contact with much worse growing up on a farm. Which my parents still wonder if thats why I got cancer when I was 7? Lol.


----------



## LawnNerd

Turfguy93 said:


> . If you want deeps roots deep tine aerate in the fall.


Bring that deep tined aerator to my Clay. I'll send you back with a flat disk. :lol:

I was digging a hole for a tree. About 4-5" deep and it was getting really hard to dig. I jumped on the spade, it scratched the soil. Welcome to NC Piedmont.


----------



## thegrassfactor

XiolaOne said:


> He has part one out but that's it. And that video didn't show solid data collecting nor a control area.
> 
> The lack of testing is interesting and concerning.
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> XiolaOne said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's interesting is none of the YouTube guys are doing good testing with data. Either they start them and don't do a follow up or they don't even test it. Pete at GCF even has a soil compaction test tool but he hasn't tested it.
> 
> 
> 
> And that's why this thread exists. We will get to the bottom of it.
> 
> Edit: I do believe @thegrassfactor is going to put it through some rigor.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I'm sorry my test wasn't up to par and for my lack of follow up. YouTube is a hobby currently and as I transition from one career to the other, YouTube has become a bit more of a burden lately. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me, but I do want to make it clear as to why I make the decisions i make: I never anticipated to put it through a full in depth scientific review. I don't have the time or resources. But I will report back on what I find at the end of the growing season with anecdotal root mass. I do have a control that's not in the video. I have studied the chemical reactions that take place as deep as my brain will allow. It's enough for me to feel comfortable using the product. It's cheap enough that even as a potassium humate source, I know at minimum it will have a positive impact. I'll point you towards the research I did to feel comfortable using the product wide scale (100+ acres) and also talking about it in a public forum (social media)

Also, I know it sounds crazy, but to run this type of test through a university is incredibly expensive. I don't mean to speak for John Perry, but even though it may appear he has a giant business, it's not. He's a small business and every dollar counts. So when making the decision to run trials (which take a year or longer and cost 5 to 6 figures in up front cash) or buy a piece of automation equipment to improve fulfillment times, that's a very intense decision to make. I know from behind the scenes, he chose to go the automation route.

Since we're in the vein of dissecting this product as deeply as possible, let's look at KOH as a chemical. Forgive me, I'm a spray jockey, not a chemist, so if I misspeak, I apologize.

KOH is potassium hydroxide, caustic, high pH. It is known to absorb water and CO2 from rather easily in its dry form. When it absorbs CO2, it reacts to form potassium carbonate, which has been used as liquid lime for a long time. Plenty of data out there regarding it. To put it to the test, pour out half of a jug of Air8 and watch the sides suck in (from the absorption of the CO2).

Now to air8, which you have to take into account the manufacturing of humic.

react leonardite with KOH. Now in solution you have K, OH, HA, FA, plus remaining solids of leonardite, and a pH of 14. react it with a bit of sulfuric acid, you get the production of a solution K2SO4, KOH, HA, FA and then you filter off the remaining leonardite solids. pH may be a 13. Repeat with a little more sulfuric acid, filter it off. Typically this reacted down to a pH of 4-6. According to the MSDS of Kelp4Less, they state a 4-6 pH. It is either then bottled (humic 12) or sprayed through an atomizer and a heater to turned into a powder (a la kelp4less).

instead of reacting it down to a pH of 4-6, it's left somewhere around a pH of 11 according to the MSDS of air8. this means there is a greater concentration of koh in solution that is unreacted with sulfuric acid as well as humic and fulvic.

So you're left with "potassium humate" (efficacy: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00103624.2016.1261884) and koh.

Now KOH effect on soil:

as we know, it reacts and solubilizes the humins (remember the production of potassium humate: humic acids, fulvics).

It also affects soil structure - I'll quote from this civil research here:

"The results showed that hydroxide solutions of Na and K
cause clay dispersion, weakened aggregates and reduced saturated
hydraulic conductivity of soils, especially at high con-'
centrations. The study also showed that the observed
destruction of soil structural stability was higher in sandy
soils when compared to clay soils.
The dissolution of organic matter has been linked to weakening
of soil structure, (Lieffering & McLay, 1995). Lieffering
& McLay, (1995), alsol reported that solutions of NaOH
were more effective in reducing soil structure compared to
KOH. However in this study organic matter dissolution was
particularly high in the more concentrated hydroxide solutions
(0.3 M) (Table 4- and 5). Therefore any dissolution of
organic matter seriously weakens the aggregates, which may
lead to their total collapse. Organic matter acts as a binding
agent in a wide range of aggregate size classes in soil from
clay coatings to macro-aggregates greater than 250llm
(Oades, 1984). Clay dispersion has been reported in some
Zimbabwean sandy soils at exchangeable Na levels much
lower than those for soils classified as sodic (ca. 5% ESP)
(Purves, 1976; Nyamapfene, 1991). "

"The hydroxides ofNa and K affect aggregate stability and
clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent
cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion
and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse
double layer is increased by the increased concentration of
monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and
(iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction
because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow
particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act
(Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions
increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in
increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This
encourages the clay to swell and disperse. The high pH of the
solution might have prohibited the binding action of the sesqui
oxides, which made the particles remain in suspension
(Childyal & Tripathi, 1987) as these have variable charge. "

Further reading here: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773

Now again, keep in mind, this is being utilized at pretty minute rates. In the study they're discussing structural stability after massive land applications of sewage sludge. I'd go out on a limb and say that's exponentially greater than what we're dealing with in air8.

However, the data shows it decreases structural stability (crumbling anyone?) which ultimately COULD lead to a reduced effort via the root system to drive deeper into the soil, which can in turn increase soil "aerification." We're not building homes on lawns, we're growing grass. Roots provide the stability. Root depth provides "aerification"

What are the long term effects? if the roots can drive the depth, then it's long lasting.

The overall objective is a program, not a product. This is a tool in an overall program. It's not a smoking gun. Use it as such.


----------



## thegrassfactor

TrialAndError said:


> Should AiR8 be watered in.


Yes, to move it through the soil profile, yes.


----------



## thegrassfactor

g-man said:


> I always think of field of dreams, "if you build it, they will come". If the product is good, then it won't need so much promotion. Some members have claimed improvement, but is it worth the cost? Does it last?


I cringe when i read this. So much of the promotion occurred organically. In John's defense, no one foresaw what would happen when the introduction to Pete and Allyn was made. The YouTube videos that have surfaced since then happened organically. The promotion outside of Pete or Allyn happened organically.

Is it worth the cost? does it last? I think each person on their own lawn will have a different answer.

Professionally, I deal with lawns that differ by soil composition, climate, etc. I run into wide issues based on elevation, length of establishment, and cultural practices. Does every lawn I treat need air8? No. But it was a tool I used in the arsenal this year to watch the effects based on the weather we're experiencing. My goal was to run RGS, air8, dethatch, skip, skip, RGS, RGS, - and that's what I'm doing. Year over year how have my lawns performed? Equal to last year (very similar weather patterns, little different program) but I'll also close out the year applying 2.5lbs of N, down from my 4 last year. I achieved the same results while saving, in my case, enough money to warrant doing it this way instead of the previous way.

I've also used it in a couple of "disaster" situations (pre-em on seedlings) with significant improvement to this day over the non treated areas.

Does this mean it will work for you? I don't know the conditions you face, the soils you encounter, your weather patterns, etc. All I can lean on is my experience and my learning of the science behind the chemistry.

No patents are on this product because it's hard to patent (and expensive) and really doesn't protect you from much, unless you have unlimited pockets to defend it. For instance, if John had the patent, and Andersons started replicating it, how long could Andersons drag this out in court before John went bankrupt? Anything humic at this time is difficult to patent. The question becomes is it worth 2 years and $17k only to find out you can't patent it.

I have my own opinion of the product, John has his. We meet somewhere in the middle. Does the bulk density of the soil change? I don't know. does water infiltration, etc change? I don't know. Does the soil structure change? yes. Did the quality of the plants improve after using it? yes. Will I continue to use it? yes.


----------



## Movingshrub

I don't think thegrassfactor makes any claim to be an academic researcher. If anyone is looking for an independent product test, I think the options are do it yourself, fund it yourself, or wait for the university community to do it.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Thanks @thegrassfactor. That was a lot of info and a good read! Also, that is a big change in N rates! Have you reduced K rates due to less N?


----------



## sicride

Movingshrub said:


> I don't think thegrassfactor makes any claim to be an academic researcher. If anyone is looking for an independent product test, I think the options are do it yourself, fund it yourself, or wait for the university community to do it.


You are right except for the last. The university community won't do it without the funding. As osuturfman states, there's a lot of research and data that never sees light of day because the people who funded the research demand such. Take anything you read with a grain of salt, even from scientific journals. You must always use your own mind and make your own decisions.

It has been made obvious so far that there is not appropriate funding to run a university study at this time. If the success of his products continues, perhaps there will be more funding to further convert us to this new way of lawn care. As Matt (thegrassfactor) said, even if there is no empirical evidence at this time, there is subjective correlation and when it comes to lawn care subjective is far more important than empirical. Especially if applying it allows subjectively similar results and less nitrogen input, this is likely far better for the environment. I guess more research will go into that soon too.

By the way I'm sure it causes cancer too, but that is only the case for research performed in California.


----------



## Hoosier

I've skimmed this topic, and figured I'd throw in my 2 cents that someone may or may not have already mentioned. I purchased this and have been using humic (RGS and other manufacturers' products) for the past year or so. I've only used Air-8 once in the past few months, but between that and the humic treatments, I have seen a noticeable decrease in compaction. I did a mechanical aeration last fall, and am thinking that I'm going to skip it this year, in favor of doing 2 more apps of Air-8 this year.

One of the reasons for this is time, which people may not take into account... I can spray my entire yard (11k sf) with Air-8 in about 30 minutes using a Chapin or Ortho hose end sprayer that I use to apply these products. Each application is about half a gallon. So, since I bought this in the bundle that was $100 for 4 different things, the Air-8 was $25, which is $12.50 per app.

To rent a mechanical aerator, I have to go rent it, muscle it around the yard doing 2 passes, clean it, find someone to help me load it back into my truck, bring it back to the rental place, then complain to my wife for the next couple days about my sore back and blistered hands. Let's guess that this is about 4-5 hours of time from start to finish, but probably more. Price to rent this is around $85+tax, plus a few dollars of gas, so we'll round up to $100.

So, comparing the 2, let's say I do 4 apps of Air-8 per year from early spring to late fall. This amounts to about 2 hours of time and $50 of product, which is half the time and half the money (albeit not a huge difference in the grand scheme of things). When I apply Air-8, I also have the option to mix it with something else I need to get down, and just based on personal experience, I feel that these soil amendments work just as well as, if not better than, a once a year aeration (think spoon feeding nitrogen instead of dumping it all in 1 app - not an apples to apples comparison, but I'm starting to learn with the lawn that slow and steady wins the race).

I would definitely be interested to see a soil compaction test done on 2 different areas, then aerate 1 and Air-8 a couple apps on the other, and do another compaction test 6 months later to see the difference, but in the absence of that, I'll go with what's easier to apply/perform, even assuming that they both work equally as well.


----------



## Ridgerunner

@thegrassfactor 
You have written an accurate and reasonably thorough explanation of the science involved. 
Thank you.
Secondly, as you are not the manufacturer, IMO, you have no responsibility to test the efficacy of the product or the accuracy of claims made by a manufacturer. Everyone should feel free to express their opinions and anecdotal evidence regarding any product or process and once expressed, others should feel free to challenge and debate those opinions and observations.
Thirdly, I'm not a fan of this product as I don't find the prospect of destroying soil structure well advised. Soil structure is so critical to plant health that agriculture has begun substantial efforts to employ no till farming and turf hobbyists steal leaves to mulch into their lawns in an effort to improve it. In my opinion, this is akin to applying glyphosate to a KBG lawn to eliminate fescue. Explaining that the glyohosate content so diluted that it wont harm the KBG, but may be potent enough to kill the fescue.
So even though I am personally a "buy in" of humic substances (despite contradicting studies), I'm a "no" on Air8 or any similar styled liquid aerifier.


----------



## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> @thegrassfactor
> You have written an accurate and reasonably thorough explanation of the science involved.
> Thank you.
> Secondly, as you are not the manufacturer, IMO, you have no responsibility to test the efficacy of the product or the accuracy of claims made by a manufacturer. Everyone should feel free to express their opinions and anecdotal evidence regarding any product or process and once expressed, others should feel free to challenge and debate those opinions and observations.
> Thirdly, I'm not a fan of this product as I don't find the prospect of destroying soil structure well advised. Soil structure is so critical to plant health that agriculture has begun substantial efforts to employ no till farming and turf hobbyists steal leaves to mulch into their lawns in an effort to improve it. In my opinion, this is akin to applying glyphosate to a KBG lawn to eliminate fescue. Explaining that the glyohosate content so diluted that it wont harm the KBG, but may be potent enough to kill the fescue.
> So even though I am personally a "buy in" of humic substances (despite the inconclusive studies), I'm a "no" on Air8 or any similar styled liquid aerifier.


I'm using a :thumbup: as TLF's version of a like button.

I also want to thank @thegrassfactor for taking the time to provide a description of the process. I have no business trying to sink my teeth into the chemistry of it, but I do have a question:
Again, it sounds like two aerification processes to me

This one is spelled out as 'aerifaction':


thegrassfactor said:


> Root depth provides "aerification"


But doesn't the crumbling/inter-particle repulsion also qualify as aerifaction?


thegrassfactor said:


> the data shows it decreases structural stability (crumbling anyone?)


To me, it sounds like decreases in structural stability offers the first level of aerification, and root drive provides a second. Do I have that correct?


----------



## 20jlr

I only know my lawn and my experience. I have used air8 three times this yer on my hard clay soil. My ground literally cracks and looks like the surface of the moon. I have been using the other items in the biostem pack as well. My lawn has never been better and the soil has never been this soft. I tested today after receiving zero water for 8 days. the grass is just starting to show heat stress, The ground that used to be so hard and cracked is now dry but "soft" enough for me to stab a 9" screwdriver all the way to the handle. I am amazed at the soil. Now all that being said my grass is the best on the block, the reason I found the stuff was because I was trying to get the greenest grass. I have a normal nomix and all of my neighbors have asked what I am doing. Last two years I was paying a service for treatments and my lawn is so far superior this year it cant be compared. As I said this are my results with my Northern Illinois hard clay.


----------



## 20jlr




----------



## XiolaOne

Thank you for the detailed response and hope I did not come off disrespectful as that was not my intent. With all the raving about the product on YT that seemed to start at the same time with no testing/data available to back it up, you can see how some of us are skeptical. Especially with Air8 as that is something that can be tested pretty good, at least to satisfy us common folks :lol: . Take a control plot, double pass core areation on a 2nd plot and air8 on a 3rd plot. Use a soil compactor testing tool to record results over a period of a month or several months and you have a decent test that would satisfy almost all of us.

hell, I have a neighborhood "public" place right behind my house that has only seen a lawnmower in the 5 years I've been here (no fert, no extra watering, no soil amendments, no over seeding, nothing) If those compaction testers weren't so expensive ($200+), I would test it out back there. (I would probably also do a 4th plot with one of the kelp4less blends as well)

Paul does has a before/after screwdriver test that does look pretty good though

Before - 



After - 






thegrassfactor said:


> XiolaOne said:
> 
> 
> 
> He has part one out but that's it. And that video didn't show solid data collecting nor a control area.
> 
> The lack of testing is interesting and concerning.
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> And that's why this thread exists. We will get to the bottom of it.
> 
> Edit: I do believe @thegrassfactor is going to put it through some rigor.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm sorry my test wasn't up to par and for my lack of follow up. YouTube is a hobby currently and as I transition from one career to the other, YouTube has become a bit more of a burden lately. I'm not asking you to feel sorry for me, but I do want to make it clear as to why I make the decisions i make: I never anticipated to put it through a full in depth scientific review. I don't have the time or resources. But I will report back on what I find at the end of the growing season with anecdotal root mass. I do have a control that's not in the video. I have studied the chemical reactions that take place as deep as my brain will allow. It's enough for me to feel comfortable using the product. It's cheap enough that even as a potassium humate source, I know at minimum it will have a positive impact. I'll point you towards the research I did to feel comfortable using the product wide scale (100+ acres) and also talking about it in a public forum (social media)
Click to expand...


----------



## osuturfman

There are four types of products we use on grass:

1.) Products that flat out don't work.
2.) Products that make you feel good about applying but, you don't know if they really work. 
3.) Products that you know really work but doesn't make you feel good (see expensive). 
4.) Products that make you feel good about applying because you know they really work.

However you personally feel about this product or any other, it all comes down to if you want to spend the time and money to apply it. Once you do that, you'll feel one of the four ways listed above and life will go on.

Me personally, I like isolating variables, running tests, and backing up the art of turf management with as much science as possible. I'm not wrong and neither are any of you.

I'll be trying out some RGS and Air8 in the near future because they aren't expensive at all, which only leaves me with three ways to feel after giving them a good year or two in the program.


----------



## Green

Let's talk a bit about how the KOH breaks down organic matter or humis (do I have that right?) And what the positive or negative impacts of that might be. Clearly, there are positive impacts, or Mr. John Perry wouldn't be marketing it and have put in all the effort to create AIR-8. However, at the same time, some of you are concerned about the impacts on soil structure...@Ridgerunner , etc.
So maybe the product is not intended to be used on good soils. But then what constitutes a good or bad soil for the use of KOH?

Also, if you're helping drive roots a few inches deeper, would the new root mass, as it dies off, create more than enough new organic matter to replace whatever is necessarily destroyed by the KOH and improve the soil structure more than enough to offset the loss from the KOH? Like the old saying, you have to spend a little money to make more money...???


----------



## osuturfman

It's not destroying or breaking up actual organic matter by KOH but rather, the humic/organic acid bonds that exist within the structure of organic matter. It is the organic (see humic) bonds that create the water repelling, hydrophobic layer in the organic matter that can cause issues with water infiltration. Below the organic layer, there are still humic bonds but not on scale of the layer above it as OM decreases with depth in the rootzone. So by driving the product deeper into the soil, I would hypothesize seeing diminish effects on creating a significant volume of micropores as a result of KOH being present.

This isn't exactly a new concept as there are some humic products in the Ag market that feature unreacted KOH packaged with humic acids. There's also a product called OARS from AquaAid in the turf market that packages a penetrating wetting agent with a buffered alkaline salt that's meant to break up those organic bonds and continue to penetrate deeper into the rootzone.

It's all about the bonds that make up the structure of the organic matter and not the OM by itself that's being broken.


----------



## Green

@osuturfman, what type of bonds are we talking? Covelant bonds? Ionic bonds? Both?? Neither??


----------



## osuturfman

Green said:


> @osuturfman, what type of bonds are we talking? Covelant bonds? Ionic bonds? Both?? Neither??


Hydrogen bonds.


----------



## Green

osuturfman said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> osuturfman, what type of bonds are we talking? Covelant bonds? Ionic bonds? Both?? Neither??
> 
> 
> 
> Hydrogen bonds.
Click to expand...

So, it's an acid-base reaction? And we form water??


----------



## sicride

Interesting discussion would love to hear more. I will say I've tried it out recently and it seems to have worked wonderfully at loosening the top section of my rock hard soils. Hopefully repeated applications next season will only further improve the tilth


----------



## MichiganGreen

What's up everybody. I'm aerating soon (mechanically), curious if anybody has experienced first hand results of air8. I've seen some very positive results and some more ho hum. Moved into my place this year and would love to give the soil a real big hug my first fall. Is an app of air8 in addition to actually mechanically aerating going to be too much?

Just very curious about this product.

Cheers, 
MG


----------



## JohnP

@MichiganGreen I believe in Air8. There are a lot of threads on here, and there are for sure other options you can get out there. Here are the two things that sold it for me:

1) This video with @thegrassfactor and John Perry. 
2) @Colonel K0rn real life experience with it from his lawn journal.

I am heavily considering mechanical aeration this fall but mostly to help bust up a pre-emergent barrier and because I've never done it before and want to give it a go. Is there a specific reason you're thinking of doing it? It's likely not super necessary and more work than needed for sure...


----------



## craigdt

Should help. Still a big fan of mechanical aeration however.

Check this thread for my recipe on how to make your own for a fraction, as well as other input.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5388


----------



## MichiganGreen

JohnP said:


> @MichiganGreen I believe in Air8. There are a lot of threads on here, and there are for sure other options you can get out there. Here are the two things that sold it for me:
> 
> 1) This video with @thegrassfactor and John Perry.
> 2) @Colonel K0rn real life experience with it from his lawn journal.
> 
> I am heavily considering mechanical aeration this fall but mostly to help bust up a pre-emergent barrier and because I've never done it before and want to give it a go. Is there a specific reason you're thinking of doing it? It's likely not super necessary and more work than needed for sure...


Thanks. To be clear i definitely am aerating already I just thought I'd give it an extra boost with this, being my first season here and the soil so dense....


----------



## JohnP

@MichiganGreen cool! I'm fortunate enough that I have a relative with a core aerator, so my rental will cost me a six pack I'm sure.

I've already done some Air8 this season but I don't think I had any major compaction issues to begin with so the aerator will just be extra.


----------



## MichiganGreen

Dont see it under $100....maybe next year haha. But first attack in spring will be bentgrass. Hoping tenacity does the trick.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Just ordered the 5 gal Air8 pack from Pete. I have some areas of poor infiltration, dry, that core aeration and compost topdress have not been able to fully resolve (only done that a couple years in those areas so I might be just impatient).

I'm giving the Air8 a try this Fall (in conjunction with core aeration) and next Spring to see if things improve during the following hot / dry Summer season. Wish me luck :lol:


----------



## g-man

@Delmarva Keith from my research, the KOH in the Air-8 will work changing the soil structure properties. I would not use it in a Sandy soil (low CEC) and I would not over do it (too frequent). I think the effect is not long lasting (leaches). You do loose some water capacity in the soil (for ET calculations).

@Spammage I saw you are using KOH. Could you share rates(recipe) and current observations?


----------



## MichiganGreen

Has anybody seen it for under the 100 buck price or do you need that much? I have 17k sqft


----------



## Delmarva Keith

g-man said:


> Delmarva Keith from my research, the KOH in the Air-8 will work changing the soil structure properties. I would not use it in a Sandy soil (low CEC) and I would not over do it (too frequent). I think the effect is not long lasting (leaches). You do loose some water capacity in the soil (for ET calculations).
> 
> Spammage I saw you are using KOH. Could you share rates(recipe) and current observations?


Thanks @g-man! I was going to blanket the entire property but I'll limit it to just the present trouble areas. Soil in those areas is heavy clay (yes, with sand - lots and lots of sand around here so they're not shy about using it) with poor infiltration (high clay % backfill which, the way it is used around here, seems intended to form the equivalent of lean concrete to stabilize the shoreline - likely placed at least a couple decades ago).

CEC runs from a low of 7 to a high of 12. I don't get too concerned until I see below 5. You think 7 is getting too low or maybe I give it a try and see how she goes?


----------



## Delmarva Keith

MichiganGreen said:


> Has anybody seen it for under the 100 buck price or do you need that much? I have 17k sqft


As far as I know, nobody sells at under hundred bucks. When I last checked, maybe a few weeks ago, it was only sold by GCI Turf and LCN. I ordered from GCI Turf this morning. $105 total for 5 gal.


----------



## Spammage

g-man said:


> @Delmarva Keith from my research, the KOH in the Air-8 will work changing the soil structure properties. I would not use it in a Sandy soil (low CEC) and I would not over do it (too frequent). I think the effect is not long lasting (leaches). You do loose some water capacity in the soil (for ET calculations).
> 
> @Spammage I saw you are using KOH. Could you share rates(recipe) and current observations?


I have only applied it once thus far at 12 grams per M. There were no I'll effects to the grass, but I didn't see any difference from that one application (I didn't expect to). I ordered some Humic DG when AM Leonard had free shipping and received it yesterday. I will put some down in a month or so and then use the KOH afterwards during the Fall and Spring. Unfortunately, we are still bumping up against 100° everyday here and soil temps are still well above 90°, so the grass probably won't be able to push any additional roots now anyway.


----------



## g-man

Delmarva Keith said:


> CEC runs from a low of 7 to a high of 12. I don't get too concerned until I see below 5. You think 7 is getting too low or maybe I give it a try and see how she goes?


I would give it a try and see how it goes. I would be more willing to try it in the fall so it could recover over the winter and spring than then spring going into the summer. The research into this subject is very limited. It seems more focus around NaOH and how to avoid the problem than to cause it on purpose.

The KOH causes clay dispersion. This is from the publication: "The effect of hydroxide solutions on the structural stability and saturated hydraulic conductivity of four tropical soils "



> The hydroxides of Na and K affect aggregate stability and clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse double layer is increased by the increased concentration of monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and (iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act (Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This encourages the clay to swell and disperse. The high pH of the solution might have prohibited the binding action of the sesquioxides, which made the particles remain in suspension (Childyal & Tripathi, 1987) as these have variable charge.
> 
> The reduction in Ks was attributed to the migration of dispersed clay and dissolved organic matter from the surface soil
> layer and its subsequent deposition in the pore necks thereby changing the pore size distribution of the soil due to pore
> clogging (Tarchitzky et aI., 1999). The time required for dispersion and the subsequent deposition to reduce Ks depends
> on the concentration of the solution (Lieffering & McLay, 1996), and decreases with increasing solution concentration.
> The retention of dissolved organic matter seems to be of less significance in clay soils because the organic matter content of both IAE and HRS soil was relatively low when compared to clay content. However in sandy soils retention of dissolved organic matter may be the main cause of the reduction in Ks, especially at Pension farm where organic matter was six times higher than at· Churu and yet this did not result in higher aggregate stability and less clay dispersion due to effluent / sewage sludge addition.


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773

Reference: J. Nyamangara , S. Munotengwa , P. Nyamugafata & G. Nyamadzawo (2007) The effect of hydroxide solutions on the structural stability and saturated hydraulic conductivity of four tropical soils, South African Journal of Plant and Soil, 24:1, 1-7, DOI: 10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773


----------



## Delmarva Keith

g-man said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> CEC runs from a low of 7 to a high of 12. I don't get too concerned until I see below 5. You think 7 is getting too low or maybe I give it a try and see how she goes?
> 
> 
> 
> I would give it a try and see how it goes. I would be more willing to try it in the fall so it could recover over the winter and spring than then spring going into the summer. The research into this subject is very limited. It seems more focus around NaOH and how to avoid the problem than to cause it on purpose.
> 
> The KOH causes clay dispersion. This is from the publication: "The effect of hydroxide solutions on the structural stability and saturated hydraulic conductivity of four tropical soils "
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The hydroxides of Na and K affect aggregate stability and clay dispersion in various ways; (i) the displacement of multivalent cations from exchange sites by Na + promote dispersion and does not allow binding of soil particles, (il) the diffuse double layer is increased by the increased concentration of monovalent cations, due to their greater hydration radius and (iii) monovalent cations weaken cationic water interaction because of their greater hydration radii which do not allow particles to come closer together for dipole moments to act (Chidyal & Tripathi, 1987). High pH of hydroxides solutions increase the net negative charge on the soil resulting in increased inter-particle repulsions (Oades, 1984). This encourages the clay to swell and disperse. The high pH of the solution might have prohibited the binding action of the sesquioxides, which made the particles remain in suspension (Childyal & Tripathi, 1987) as these have variable charge.
> 
> The reduction in Ks was attributed to the migration of dispersed clay and dissolved organic matter from the surface soil
> layer and its subsequent deposition in the pore necks thereby changing the pore size distribution of the soil due to pore
> clogging (Tarchitzky et aI., 1999). The time required for dispersion and the subsequent deposition to reduce Ks depends
> on the concentration of the solution (Lieffering & McLay, 1996), and decreases with increasing solution concentration.
> The retention of dissolved organic matter seems to be of less significance in clay soils because the organic matter content of both IAE and HRS soil was relatively low when compared to clay content. However in sandy soils retention of dissolved organic matter may be the main cause of the reduction in Ks, especially at Pension farm where organic matter was six times higher than at· Churu and yet this did not result in higher aggregate stability and less clay dispersion due to effluent / sewage sludge addition.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773
> 
> Reference: J. Nyamangara , S. Munotengwa , P. Nyamugafata & G. Nyamadzawo (2007) The effect of hydroxide solutions on the structural stability and saturated hydraulic conductivity of four tropical soils, South African Journal of Plant and Soil, 24:1, 1-7, DOI: 10.1080/02571862.2007.10634773
Click to expand...

Yikes! It looks like it makes hydraulic conductivity worse. OTOH, I found a petro paper that seems to say KOH is used to stabilize clays that would otherwise become impermeable (to oil) due to fresh water. https://www.onepetro.org/journal-paper/SPE-11721-PA

Can't make much sense of it. My bet is neither can the manufacturer of this stuff :lol:

I'll take your advice and do a treatment this Fall and see if it seems to make things a little better or a little worse. I have about 1,500 sq ft on a wide but short slope that I can just never get enough water into. I tried to plant a tree in it last fall and the soil becomes basically hard as rock only a few inches down. That will be a good test.


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## g-man

I forgot I took this screenshot and forgot to record the source, but the image shows how the clay changes with NaOH under a microscope.



Found the source: Swelling on Natural Soils https://pp.bme.hu/ci/article/download/8185/7302

So the effect and @Colonel K0rn is seeing is the clay allowing the water to flow. Under his lawn conditions, it helps remove the water.


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## Spammage

This is interesting, and I will know if this does indeed cause dispersion of the clay if we ever get rain again. I originally tried to use the BLSC with sodium laureth sulfate, and the more I used, the worse my problems got. I have had good luck with other surfactants not containing sodium.


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## g-man

You could take all the rain I got. I don't want anymore for 2 months.


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## Delmarva Keith

g-man said:


> I forgot I took this screenshot and forgot to record the source, but the image shows how the clay changes with NaOH under a microscope.
> 
> 
> 
> Found the source: Swelling on Natural Soils https://pp.bme.hu/ci/article/download/8185/7302
> 
> So the effect and Colonel K0rn is seeing is the clay allowing the water to flow. Under his lawn conditions, it helps remove the water.


That's very encouraging. The particle swelling is not uniform over the surface of the particle so it appears the particles can essentially push each other apart leaving pore space in the "rough" areas between particles created by the non-uniform swelling. I won't spray any near my house foundation though


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## Colonel K0rn

@g-man Cool picture of the microscopic changes! Anything that I can do to fix the infiltration of water into the subsurface of my water at a cost that's substantially lower than the quote I got for installing catch basins and drain pipes that actually works is a win for me. Cost-speaking, the $105 for the product is not expensive. I can drive the few hours to GCF and pick up the product which will drive the costs down even further. Shipping from the factory direct is about $30/case. The actual cost of all of their product lines is very affordable. It just helps if you live close to them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Delmarva Keith

Well I may be screwing up my Air8 infiltration test in the dry areas. I finally programmed the irrigation controller to do three rounds of that day's zones an hour apart with 1/3 the usual time each for "cycle and soak." I don't know why I never set it up that way before to address poor infiltration - just didn't occur to me. Will likely work better on areas with good infiltration too. The idea finally popped in my head and I could not resist setting it up that way.

The Air8 is supposed to arrive today and light rain is forecast for tomorrow so I'll likely spray tomorrow.

If the dry areas improve, was it the "cycle and soak" or the Air8, or a combination? I've discovered at this time of year (gearing up for the overseed) I'm more of a farmer than scientist so as long as it improves, that will have to be good enough.


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## g-man

@Delmarva Keith FYI I moved this to the soil forum and merged it with a similar topic.


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## g-man

Spammage said:


> I will put some down in a month or so and then use the KOH afterwards during the Fall and Spring. Unfortunately, we are still bumping up against 100° everyday here and soil temps are still well above 90°, so the grass probably won't be able to push any additional roots now anyway.


Any update on this KOH experiment?


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## Spammage

@g-man not really. We've had over 20" of rain in the last month, so I haven't been able to do much of anything with the yard. I'm hoping to get some more down this weekend, but for all I know, the humic acid may be long gone.


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## Grassmasterwilson

How are you adding this to your program? The extreme pH sounds like it may affect pre/post products? I was gonna use air8 instead of rgs in 2 rounds in fescue.

If the air8 would not bother chemicals I could use it on warm turf as well.

Maybe better as an aeration upsel? Liquid price vs mechanical price and list pros/cons of each?


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## Delmarva Keith

Grassmasterwilson said:


> How are you adding this to your program? The extreme pH sounds like it may affect pre/post products? I was gonna use air8 instead of rgs in 2 rounds in fescue.
> 
> If the air8 would not bother chemicals I could use it on warm turf as well.
> 
> Maybe better as an aeration upsel? Liquid price vs mechanical price and list pros/cons of each?


I just started using it myself but an idea that comes to mind is sell "Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum" programs. Bronze is fert and weed control. Silver adds RGS and maybe some humic. Gold adds Air-8 to all that, Platinum adds mechanical aeration and overseed. You can mix RGS and Air-8 for a separate app from fert / weed control. The high ph of Air-8 would likely affect a lot of weed control chemicals so I'd suggest pricing it as a separate app.

Don't know what it's like where you are but around here there are a surprising number of people who just want the "best" and don't want any more involvement than write the check. If you deliver the results, they will stick with it.

Selling the pros and cons of mechanical versus chemical is a good approach. For many folks, it's TMI though. Most people get the concept of bronze, silver, gold, platinum with the list of services associated with each.


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## gm560

Anyone know if it is too late to apply Air8? I have had some pooling in some spots with heavy rain and want to see if I can start mitigation before spring to get a jump on things, but not sure if soil temps matter for Air8. It has been 30s at night here in NJ with daytime highs in the high 40s/low 50s. Might even snow on Thursday.


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## Kissfromnick

Anybody out there use N-Ext Air-8? Bad and good side of the product?
Thank You,


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## g-man

@Kissfromnick I moved your question here.


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## Guest

I thought in August or September one morning I would wake up before the wife and kids, power rake the heck out of the lawn the the groundskeeper 2. Bag mow. Throw down air-8. Throw down seed. Top dress with peat moss. And run my sprinklers. Basically skip mechanical aeration this year, just use the groundskeeper 2 rake - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSdraibbIUo

Is this a bad idea due to the ph of air 8 or for some other reason? Should I use 002 microgreen instead as it acually has 8% humic and 3% kelp? Or just throwdown fert with the overseed and apply some next products and fertilizer a couple weeks later?

The more I read on this the more I actually get confused.


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## TN Hawkeye

macdawg said:


> I thought in August or September one morning I would wake up before the wife and kids, power rake the heck out of the lawn the the groundskeeper 2. Bag mow. Throw down air-8. Throw down seed. Top dress with peat moss. And run my sprinklers. Basically skip mechanical aeration this year, just use the groundskeeper 2 rake -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a bad idea due to the ph of air 8 or for some other reason? Should I use 002 microgreen instead as it acually has 8% humic and 3% kelp? Or just throwdown fert with the overseed and apply some next products and fertilizer a couple weeks later?
> 
> The more I read on this the more I actually get confused.


I'm sure that I have seen anything on Air-8 having an effect on seed. Not 100% though.


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## CPA Nerd

This was a good thread from 2018 with many people saying they were just starting to use Air-8. Now that we're into the later part of the 2019 season, I would love to hear some personal experiences with Air-8. Anybody notice any major differences after using the product for a year?


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## adgattoni

CPA Nerd said:


> This was a good thread from 2018 with many people saying they were just starting to use Air-8. Now that we're into the later part of the 2019 season, I would love to hear some personal experiences with Air-8. Anybody notice any major differences after using the product for a year?


No visual differences in my test plots from the rest of the yard. 2oz over the 100sqft test plot per month this year. Generally the soil seems just as tight as well. I haven't seen any differences in color during drought stress either, but I use wetting agents as well so that mitigates some of the stress.

I think it's about time to pull some plugs and see if there's a difference in root mass.


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## CPA Nerd

adgattoni said:


> CPA Nerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> This was a good thread from 2018 with many people saying they were just starting to use Air-8. Now that we're into the later part of the 2019 season, I would love to hear some personal experiences with Air-8. Anybody notice any major differences after using the product for a year?
> 
> 
> 
> No visual differences in my test plots from the rest of the yard. 2oz over the 100sqft test plot per month this year. Generally the soil seems just as tight as well. I haven't seen any differences in color during drought stress either, but I use wetting agents as well so that mitigates some of the stress.
> 
> I think it's about time to pull some plugs and see if there's a difference in root mass.
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing.


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## JERSEY

osuturfman said:


> There are four types of products we use on grass:
> 
> 1.) Products that flat out don't work.
> 2.) Products that make you feel good about applying but, you don't know if they really work.
> 3.) Products that you know really work but doesn't make you feel good (see expensive).
> 4.) Products that make you feel good about applying because you know they really work.
> 
> However you personally feel about this product or any other, it all comes down to if you want to spend the time and money to apply it. Once you do that, you'll feel one of the four ways listed above and life will go on.
> 
> Me personally, I like isolating variables, running tests, and backing up the art of turf management with as much science as possible. I'm not wrong and neither are any of you.
> 
> I'll be trying out some RGS and Air8 in the near future because they aren't expensive at all, which only leaves me with three ways to feel after giving them a good year or two in the program.


so what is your feeling after a year?
1,2,3,4?


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## ThePowerTool

I read this whole thread hoping that someone, particularly the most skeptical folks like @g-man, @osuturfman, or @Ridgerunner, would have posted final opinions but the conversation seems to have died off. Did anybody conduct any of those tests that were mentioned? What are people's final opinions?

The reason I ask is because last year I went with the full N-EXT program because the science sounded good. But after reading through this I have to acknowledge that there is a difference between science sounding good and having tangible studies proving it to be so. In my experience, these products seemed to work well but I'm still relatively new to lawn care and don't have a deep well of experience to compare it to. In other words, I don't know if my lawn and soil looked better this year than it did previously because I follow good practices unlike the previous owners, or if it was the N-EXT products themselves that spurred the improvements, or both. As I plan ahead for my program in the upcoming year, I'd like to be armed with this information before I decide which products to buy and use.


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## adgattoni

ThePowerTool said:


> I read this whole thread hoping that someone, particularly the most skeptical folks like @g-man, @osuturfman, or @Ridgerunner, would have posted final opinions but the conversation seems to have died off. Did anybody conduct any of those tests that were mentioned? What are people's final opinions?
> 
> The reason I ask is because last year I went with the full N-EXT program because the science sounded good. But after reading through this I have to acknowledge that there is a difference between science sounding good and having tangible studies proving it to be so. In my experience, these products seemed to work well but I'm still relatively new to lawn care and don't have a deep well of experience to compare it to. In other words, I don't know if my lawn and soil looked better this year than it did previously because I follow good practices unlike the previous owners, or if it was the N-EXT products themselves that spurred the improvements, or both. As I plan ahead for my program in the upcoming year, I'd like to be armed with this information before I decide which products to buy and use.


I'm going to be continuing my test plots through FY 2020 and doing soil tests at the end of the bermuda season (probably October). I pulled some plugs at the end of FY 2019 and there was some slight difference in root depth, which I attributed to the soil not being as clingy/clumpy (in most cases some of the roots were getting pulled off when I washed the plugs). However, I didn't see any real differences in color last year, even compared to areas I didn't apply any humic products.


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## though

Is it ok to put down a Prodiamine pre-emergent granular and then an Air-8 application immediately after the same day???

I am afraid the Air8 may make it less effective.


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## tommyboy

Just saw a video from LCN. Or maybe the Grass Factor guy. Same question. He says it's OK. Air 8 works down in the soil. Prodiamine works on top.


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## though

tommyboy said:


> Just saw a video from LCN. Or maybe the Grass Factor guy. Same question. He says it's OK. Air 8 works down in the soil. Prodiamine works on top.


Thanks for the reply, Have a link? How about the granulars getting damp with the spray?


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## tommyboy

No I don't but after thinking about it I'm fairly sure it was sunday's Grass Factor Youtube show with Matt Martin. Not 100% though. I watch so many of these wilhile in lockdown.


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## falainwest

Killsocket said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Killsocket said:
> 
> 
> 
> This whole product line goes through a fan tip nozzle? Wouldn't AIR-8 be needing to hit soil and not grass? Am I misunderstanding something?
> 
> 
> 
> You can apply any of their products through a watering can/hose end sprayer/high volume sprayer, whatever type of equipment that you have. I apply my products via my Chapin 24V sprayer with XRC TeeJet nozzles which have a fine spray pattern, because I'm spraying other contact products like fertilizer, iron, insecticide, PGR, etc. I've used the flood jet nozzles that are on my Agri-Fab sprayer to apply the product as well. *It's not so much a function of how the product is applied being applied to achieve results, but rather the rate of the application for the product over the area that you're treating. *It's easier for me to spray with the TeeJets because I know what my rate of application is because they're calibrated to me.
> 
> Also, if you apply the product, and it's irrigated, the product is going to be on the leaf surface and washed into the soil, similar to tracking dye, or PreM. Once it's in the soil, it starts working.
> 
> That being said, I got some FloraGreene that I'm looking forward to using, and I'll be putting that in my hand watering can.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for all this information. I will be putting some RGS and Air-8 down tomorrow and feel better armed with this info. Thought about putting weed killer in there, but I want to spot spray mostly for that.
Click to expand...

How did this liquid aeration turn out? Is it something you'd recommend? I want to get some.


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## GangstaRIB

Raising a thread from the dead.... Just did my first app of air-8 at 8oz/M and watered it in and this morning I'm pretty impressed already. I don't believe if the woo-woo but I do believe the ph has more to do with the solubility of the humic acid in water and there also appears to be a saponification factor from the oils and koh (lye) It seems to have added a little shade of green to my lawn for sure which I believe is probably from the fulvic acid.


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## Mathwiz

I just purchased 1 gal of Air8 and plan to spray it on my lawn with a 20:1 hose-end sprayer @6oz/1000sqf. My question is should I put dye in the 32oz bottle for fear of clogging? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this.


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## Chris LI

Mathwiz said:


> I just purchased 1 gal of Air8 and plan to spray it on my lawn with a 20:1 hose-end sprayer @6oz/1000sqf. My question is should I put dye in the 32oz bottle for fear of clogging? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this.


You don't really need dye. The N-Ext Products are dark and leave a brownish tinge on the leaves. You should have no problem with dye, if you want to use it.


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## Mathwiz

Chris LI said:


> Mathwiz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just purchased 1 gal of Air8 and plan to spray it on my lawn with a 20:1 hose-end sprayer @6oz/1000sqf. My question is should I put dye in the 32oz bottle for fear of clogging? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need dye. The N-Ext Products are dark and leave a brownish tinge on the leaves. You should have no problem with dye, if you want to use it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Chris, I performed my spray application and after opening the jug and mixing water to fill the 32 oz spray bottle I saw how this stuff is like brown ink. I didn't have any problem knowing if the product was spraying or not. This is some nasty stuff to deal with. I hope the results are worth it. I didn't like how it put a brown tinge on my pretty, green lawn, but it was a little better after watering it in. I did the screwdriver stab thing in several places so I look forward to that improving after (X) number of applications.


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## Chris LI

Mathwiz said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mathwiz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just purchased 1 gal of Air8 and plan to spray it on my lawn with a 20:1 hose-end sprayer @6oz/1000sqf. My question is should I put dye in the 32oz bottle for fear of clogging? Thanks in advance to anyone who can help with this.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't really need dye. The N-Ext Products are dark and leave a brownish tinge on the leaves. You should have no problem with dye, if you want to use it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks Chris, I performed my spray application and after opening the jug and mixing water to fill the 32 oz spray bottle I saw how this stuff is like brown ink. I didn't have any problem knowing if the product was spraying or not. This is some nasty stuff to deal with. I hope the results are worth it. I didn't like how it put a brown tinge on my pretty, green lawn, but it was a little better after watering it in. I did the screwdriver stab thing in several places so I look forward to that improving after (X) number of applications.
Click to expand...

The results outweigh the the minor color change. It should come off with the next mow. Also, I mix Air-8 with Rgs (Compaction Cure, as they call it). The combo works well together. If the brown tinge really bothers you, maybe try the dye marker (I like blue) to mask the brown tinge. I would be interested to see if it improves the aesthetics.


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## Frankzzz

The Truth About Liquid Aeration - SURFACTANTS DON'T AERATE - The Grass Factor

He covers Air8, amongst others.


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