# Mozart's Fall 2018 Renovation (Northern NJ)



## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

All comments, questions, criticisms and suggestions are welcome!

*Background*:

Bought house last year, moved in during winter. Knew absolutely nothing about grass but wanted a nice yard. Learning a lot from @LawnCareNut and the other great YouTube personalities (@wardconnor, @GrassDaddy) and reading online publications.

I had pachysandra throughout the yard, in all renovation zones except #1 (and over-seeding areas).

*Zone 1*: Main renovation area. Was huge weed pit with 6-7 dead forsythia stumps and a vast network of vines. Note the weeds on neighbor's side of lawn. That's his buffer zone to my weed pit. I hate being that guy. If only one area succeeds I want this to be it. There is a plastic sheet in the dirt that I need to remove, in case you were wondering what that is 





*Zone 2*: Around deck where pachysandra were. (I tried leveling a section - back part of 2nd pic - what do you guys think?)





*Zone 3*: Side of house. Southern exposure - sun virtually all day. I have a Zoysia problem in the surrounding grass. Hope to reduce or eliminate it. Growing grass here should be easy, if I can keep it wet.



*Zone 4*: property line, neighbor wanted to keep his pachysandra. Main challenge here will be weed seeds. Neighbor does not treat weeds within the pachysandra (crab grass, clover and fescue). Nutsedge is popping up but I dig out the nuts and tubers since the ground is soft.



*Zone 5*: My biggest challenge. Not sure if I can even grow grass within the tangled root mess, but I will try (azalea was trimmed after half of it died over winter).





*Over-seeding areas*:
My biggest over-seed project is this area. It was almost entirely bare when we moved in, but the existing *** is taking over (very impressed with KBG).





Above shows fall 2017 vs August 2018. No grass seed was applied to this area at all.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Questions/Topics from other threads:


August seeding checklist
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4887

Lowering HOC for overseeding https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5081

Battery Backpack Sprayer https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5096

Seed Storage https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5080

Adding Soil https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5018


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Journal:
8/5/18: Clean up and level Zone 1
8/10/18: Thin out tall fescue in lawn to make room for KBG
8/12/18: Mow to 4"
8/14/18: Cleaned up Zone 3 & 4
8/17/18: Leveled half of Zone 2 and pulled a lot of mature weeds between my property and neighbor's.
8/18/18: Leveled the rest. Ready to seed tomorrow, weather permitting
8/19/18: Seeded bare areas
8/20/18: Overseeded remainder of back yard


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Reserved


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Mozart I moved this to the journal section


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Yesterday I cleaned up Zone 1. Removed the plastic, mulch, rocks and a TON of roots.

I'm not sure why the former owners had black plastic here but when I removed it there was a tangled spiderweb of roots. I'm hoping these are just tree roots and that I didn't just awaken some sort of demon weed.

At the end I spread the soil out and did a first pass of leveling. This area is in pretty good shape now surprisingly,with the top 1-2 inches of dirt loose and relatively root free.

I also thoroughly watered it all to encourage weed seed germination. Have 2-3 weeks before seed down.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

That section is going to look so much better! Looking good. :thumbup:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> That section is going to look so much better! Looking good. :thumbup:


Thanks :thumbup:

Today I hand pulled a ton of K31 tall fescue. Trying to thin it out and plan on overseeding with the KBG. Been a while since I last mowed; haven't had the time lately! Will mow this weekend and hopefully finish leveling the seed beds and filling in with topsoil.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Added 6 bags of Scott's topsoil to Zone 3 and leveled. Topsoil was decent quality and I mixed it in with the native soil. Fallowed when done leveling.









Zone 4 was also leveled and fallowed but I had to rush as nightfall approached. Might need to go over both areas again to level out any low spots once the soil settles.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Looks like really nice work to me, especially against your house.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

social port said:


> Looks like really nice work to me, especially against your house.


Thanks! It was a lot of work but I'm happy with the progress. Need to do Zone 2 ASAP. Hopefully in the same day I can also top dress the tree & azalea with top soil. Not really sure what to do with Zone 5!!

I'm targeting this weekend for seeding, but still have a lot to do.

Was hoping to spray tenacity around Zone 3 to light up the Zoysia but won't have time. My plan was to identify it with tenacity and hand pull about 750 sqft but it's been raining almost every day for the past 2 months!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Today was seeding day! It is the perfect day for baby KBG to be born (72 degrees with light rain). Working in the rain was no fun.

Used the Scott's hand held broadcast spreader - Wizz. Great control; very nice. Would recommend.

Sprayed tenacity but may have overapplied slightly. Sprayed before peat moss - hopefully that's okay.

Tested sprinkler system which was working except 1 head. I will need to get that fixed!

Now keep watering and Pray.

How is the seed density?


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Nice work, Mozart!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> Nice work, Mozart!


Thanks Jesse!

My irrigation is already pushing some of the peat moss around. Worried about a washout if we get a downpour. I think Tenacity went down a little heavy, maybe 5-6oz/acre in some areas. Hopefully that's okay. Spray & pray I guess :lol:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I've been using the EZStraw seeding mulch from lowes the past few years on slopes and I highly recommend it. Is has a tackifier in it that really helps glue it all together. I seeding on severe slopes a few weeks back and have had a few sereve downpours and didn't lose anything. I love it.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Yesterday I scalped the backyard at 2" (1" in a small spot). Dethatched backyard by hand with a metal rake. Re-scalped @ 2" (Ego mower has terrible lift!! Raking helped with the scalp for sure). Over-seeded/fertilized backyard by eye (did not weigh our fert/seeds) and raked in peat moss over completely bare areas.

I did take note of total fertilizer applied and may add more later if I have time to measure the lawn size more precisely. I erred on the low side (using kinder fertilizer from SSS - I think it's slow release).

I filled a 48 gallon garbage can packed tight with clippings/thatch. Probably 25% clippings 75% thatch. Dethatching with a rake was a great workout lol.

At 1" HOC I hit a root. Probably screwed up the mower blade  I think this might be a good rotary Moyer for new seedlings because it is lightweight and has poor lift, but still nervous about using a rotary.

Here is the whole backyard





Sample of a bare spot:



Dethatched, overseeded closeups:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Like in the other post, this small area screams gly if you want KBG. You have it almost bare.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> Like in the other post, this small area screams gly if you want KBG. You have it almost bare.


Thanks @g-man. There are two main reasons i did not glyphosate the backyard:

No time. It's been raining maybe 70% of all days in the last 2 months, so not a lot of opportunity for yard work, planning, timing things.

Don't need 100% KBG yard right now, want to make sure I know what I'm doing before killing the yard. I've never planted grass seed before this. Plus, if the seeding/overseeding fails I will still have some grass in the backyard. If this is successful I may do a 100% renovation in the future.

My #1 goal is a nice backyard for the kids to play in. I prefer KBG but if it doesn't work I still have a crappy lawn (and not dirt :lol


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Been so busy with the seeding/overseeding project... my front lawn had been neglected!

Badly in need of a mow!

Also have some fine fescue patches dying. Not a bad thing, but wondering if this is due to spraying Tenacity 4 days ago or just summer heat. I believe it is due to Tenacity because it's been cool and these areas were green on Sunday :thumbup:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Been watering 5x/day.

Mowed the lawn today from 11-12" down to 3.5". Definitely broke the 1/3 rule. 

Bagged clippings within ~5 ft of the seed bed.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Germination on day 5 in Zone 3!!?!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Widespread germination in all zones on day 6! Been watering 5x/day.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Seeded around the tree in my front yard. Didnt measure anything just eyeballed it. The rest of the yard is looking good! Green fuzz below from this morning (6.5 days old)


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Congrats on the green babies!


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Good work!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks @pennstater2005 and @ericgautier!

7.5 days later and Zone 1 is looking fantastic! Other zones doing quite well also. Zone 4 had a partial washout which resulted in insane seed density where they settled. Hopefully all will work out in the end.

Zone 1:



Zone 3:



Zone 2:



Zone 4 washout area:



I did an experiment for you guys and sprayed glyphosate a day after seeding on some poa annua. The seeds seemed to germinate without any issue:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Doing a little side experiment where I slowly kill/remove fine fescue and seed KBG to see how much the KBG will spread. Area is a bit shady so it will be interesting to see what happens.

I sprayed a strip along the property line with tenacity @4oz/acre, dethatched the affected fine fescue and seeded with the same SS1100 blend. (I had fine fescue near similar to the neighbor's side before tenacity)

This spot doesn't get irrigation and is mostly shaded.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

8 full days (I seeded around 6 PM). Interesting to note the difference between now and morning (7.5 days).


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

96 degree high today. Hope nothing bad happens! Will be watering/checking frequently throughout the day.

I had some grass growing in peat moss on top of a stepping stone and thought it would be fun to see if I could transplant it. I expect it to die but we'll see.

8.5 days old:




Baby grass transplant:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Found some grass growing in the cracks of my deck and plucked out a nice sample that shows height and root depth at 9 days.

Should I blow off some of those leaves or would that be too much stress for the baby grass?


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Use a leaf blower without the throttle engaged to blow the leaves IF!!! you feel comfortable walking on the grass.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

LawnNerd said:


> Use a leaf blower without the throttle engaged to blow the leaves IF!!! you feel comfortable walking on the grass.


Thanks!

I definitely do not want to walk on the grass but if it's okay to do it might be worth it. When is it generally safe?

Grass is coming in very nice along the property line (where the forsythia end). Day 10:



When should I overseed bare spots like this?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Looking good! It's a great feeling.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I can't remember, did you go with 100% kbg? If that's 100% kbg, i'd wait till atleast day 14 or so to see if you're going to get any more sprouts out of it. (keep in mind, KBG will wait up to a month to sprout, but most is up by day 21) But i'm a reseed sooner rather than later. You could also forgo reseeding that area and let the KBG refill on it's own. That spot doesn't look too big and kbg will close that gap pretty quickly over the next year. However, if that's just 1 of many bare spots, i'd reseed. I like to think of it like this: If you think you'll have 75% or more coverage, no need to reseed.

As far as safe to walk on, that's a call you're going to have to make. When does the reward for removing the leaves out weigh the risks of crushing baby grass.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

@Harts Thanks! It is definitely a good feeling to see baby grass growing up! Fingers crossed that it stays healthy.



LawnNerd said:


> I can't remember, did you go with 100% kbg? If that's 100% kbg, i'd wait till atleast day 14 or so to see if you're going to get any more sprouts out of it. (keep in mind, KBG will wait up to a month to sprout, but most is up by day 21) But i'm a reseed sooner rather than later. You could also forgo reseeding that area and let the KBG refill on it's own. That spot doesn't look too big and kbg will close that gap pretty quickly over the next year. However, if that's just 1 of many bare spots, i'd reseed. I like to think of it like this: If you think you'll have 75% or more coverage, no need to reseed.
> 
> As far as safe to walk on, that's a call you're going to have to make. When does the reward for removing the leaves out weigh the risks of crushing baby grass.


Thanks, LawnNerd. I did plant KBG (Midnight, bewitched and award). So I will wait a few days and monitor. Very pleased so far with this blend, and I must say the Kinder starter fertilizer from SSS seems to be working well.

I'll wait to walk on the grass. Maybe blow off some leaves from the sidelines or perhaps buy one of those extend-an-arm things that allow you to pickup stuff from a distance. I really wish my ash tree didn't shed so much this early in the season!


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

Very nice!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

LawnSolo said:


> Very nice!


Thanks LawnSolo!

Can someone explain what the flashlight pictures are supposed to reveal and when would you take those pictures?


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Mozart said:


> LawnSolo said:
> 
> 
> > Very nice!
> ...


From my understanding of it is it will make the grass babies really stand out, that you are unable to see during the day. Timing i would say would be to check on the 4-5 day range.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks @iowa jim.

Day 10.5 for the overseed and it's coming in nicely. Forecast looks pretty good for the next week :thumbsup:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Day 15, except the tree which is day 8.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I sprayed glyphosate on poa annua and KBG seeds *1 day after seed down*. 15 days later tha poa annua is fried and the baby grass is fine. Interesting - wasn't sure what to expect.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Today I found dead patches in my renovation. Cutting back on watering. Might apply some fungicide but not sure what to do yet. Any suggestions welcome.

I would estimate 2% of my renovation is currently impacted.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Don't think about it. Go to Lowe's and apply azoxy today.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks for the advice @g-man, I applied and the disease stopped spreading.

Today I mowed the new seeding areas at 1.5" and the over-seed at 2.0" with my Ego push mower. Thanks to last week's fungicide application I have confidence in walking on the baby grass.

Things are looking pretty good, the grass is standing up after blow drying it and mowing. Hope this stimulates growth! I didn't mow too early did I?

I want to apply more fert, hopefully today if I can figure out a game plan (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5972). Advice welcome!

Here are some pics!

New seeding areas:






Overseed Area (backyard):




Grass closeup:


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

looks really good


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Mrotatori said:



> looks really good


Thanks! It feels like quite an accomplishment to mow it for the first time. Hopefully it's all downhill from here


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Nice even coverage...&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

JDgreen18 said:


> Nice even coverage...👍👍👍


Thanks! I actually have a few areas that are quite bare but will address those by feeding the KBG and making plugs next year (there is a 8x3 rectangle in the back corner of my yard by the fence that will produce plugs for bare spots :thumbup


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Day 28:

Mowed the new grass for the second time at 1.5" and mowed my entire backyard at 1.5". Feels good to mow low and my Ego mower performs pretty well at this height.

Started the fall nitrogen blitz on my back and side yard. Applied N at 0.2#/1000sqft and watered in by hand.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Looking good, just wondering if you have considered putting a mulch ring around that tree with the exposed roots. Mowing around that must be difficult.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> Looking good, just wondering if you have considered putting a mulch ring around that tree with the exposed roots. Mowing around that must be difficult.


Thanks Jim! This is a tough tree trunk to manage because of the height of the roots. I would have to put massive amounts of mulch to make it look good, but when you use too much mulch the roots begin to circle around the trunk and strangle the tree.

It looks like the former owners did that (before installing pachysandra) because some of the roots are wrapping around the trunk.

I'll probably do something else with this tree in time but my thinking is that it's much easier to kill grass later than to grow grass later (and I want to take advantage of irrigating other areas daily).

I have not and probably will not mow the baby grass around the tree - too concerned that I would damage my lawnmower blade.

Should look better with grass than with pachysandra at least (in my opinion  )


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Finished applying nitrogen to the front yard today, so week 1 of the blitz is complete.

Hand watered it in - took a very long time to do all 2200 square feet. Can't irrigate because my rhododendron is sick from root rot.

Here is what the distribution looks like on the ground, prills highlighted in red. @g-man does this distribution look about right to you?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't know. I don't look. I just weight it and spread it evently.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> I don't know. I don't look. I just weight it and spread it evently.


What do you set the Wizz to? It seems to come out fast with edgeguard and slow without when I use setting #3.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I really don't know. I just set it to the lowest that still comes out and walk the yard. Since I know the weight is right, then the setting doesn't matter.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I had my Wiz set at 2 (the lowest). Nothing came out.

Set it to 2.5 and a little came out.

Setting 3 was perfect for me. I spread 1.25lb Urea over 2,500 sf. I found I had to shake the wizz slightly while I was walking to have it come out nicely for me. I had to make several passes until it was empty.

This is going to be trial and error for you. Try going up a setting next time and see how that works. If it's too much, go back down to 3 for your third app.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The key is to weight it prior to dispense. Don't skip this step.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> The key is to weight it prior to dispense. Don't skip this step.


Thanks, i was actually very precise here. The small quantity per sqft meant I finally had to do a precise measurement of my lawn because of the small margin for error. I estimated everything through this point (successfully) but knew from reading others' stories that bad things happen wish Nitrogen is overapplied.

I partitioned my 5200 sq ft into 9 sections no larger than 1000 sqft and calculated the appropriate weight in grams per section and used a precision scale. My concern was that I may have not applied uniformly because of the Wizz setting I used - I did a single perimeter pass with maybe 4 sets of interior passes. The perimeter pass poured out faster though.

I think partitioning the lawn into small sections really helps when applying small quantities. :thumbup: I would recommend it to anyone who is new to the fall nitrogen blitz.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

5k into 9 sections? that's a lot of work. All you need is 5lb of urea and the smallest setting that will flow. It will be ok.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I'll mess with the settings next week and maybe do side/middle/back yard. Smaller sections basically guarantee better uniformity though. The most time consuming part was hand watering everything in. How long should it take to water a 10x10 area 1/4" by hand? I probably spent 2 minutes on a 100 sqft area.

When are we going to get an update on your renovation?  I'd really like to hear your thoughts behind the PGR application - why you are using it/what you are hoping for etc. I'm very interested in using PGR either now or next spring. I'm shooting for a really dense 2-2.5" HOC lawn by this time next year.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Put a rain gauge or can in the section you are watering. Water how you normally would and time how long it takes to put 0.25 in the can


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

g-man said:


> 5k into 9 sections? that's a lot of work. All you need is 5lb of urea and the smallest setting that will flow. It will be ok.


Hey g-man you said the other day in another thread to only use .25 pounds of N per 1000 sf. But using 5 pounds over 5k sf is .5 pounds per 1000 right...is this because Mozart is putting it down over new and existing turf and not just new green babies


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, on young grass, avoid more than 0.25 of N/M at once. On mature areas, then 0.5 or even 1.0, just be careful with overlaps if you are going higher rates.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> Yes, on young grass, avoid more than 0.25 of N/M at once. On mature areas, then 0.5 or even 1.0, just be careful with overlaps if you are going higher rates.


So the monthly rate for mature grass and baby grass is the same (1#/1000sqft) but the difference is with mature grass you can do higher dosage less frequently?

Haven't seen much growth in 2 days but if things dry up I plan to mow again to stimulate growth.

If I stay consistent with the blitz over the next 4 weeks what should I expect? Dinner plate sized holes filling? Does anyone have before/after pics from a nitrogen blitz they can share?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Mozart said:


> If I stay consistent with the blitz over the next 4 weeks what should I expect? Dinner plate sized holes filling? Does anyone have before/after pics from a nitrogen blitz they can share?


I think you'll be able to find some pics like that in the lawn journal of @fusebox7. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=782&hilit=fusebox7&start=300#p86457

There was even an area that was intentionally left alone (not overseeded) in order to show the spreading of KBG into bare areas.

Dinner plate sized is a little bigger than will fill in completely in one season. Saucer-sized holes usually become un-noticeable at a taller HOC in just one season.

I usually put 1-3 plugs into a bare patch the size of a dinner plate to help it close up faster. I have a ProPlugger for that purpose.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Correct. There are different ways to get there when spoon feeding.

*On established grass (next Fall since you over seeded this year):*

0.25lb N weekly x 4 weeks = 1lb

or

0.5lbs N bi-weekly x 2 apps - 1lb

*On new grass:*

0.25lb N max weekly

I believe you have only done one app so far, correct? Give it time and a couple of apps. You should see some growth but it isn't going to go from 1.5" to 3 or 4" over night. Remember you are putting down a very small dose of N.

I don't think you can expect KBG to spread that much that fast. I believe you can expect that over the course of a season.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Day 31
Mowed the new grass for the third time at 1.5". Mowed front yard at 3". Hoping to mow front again tomorrow at 2.5" and dethatch with my new rake (groundskeeper 2). Hoping this will help with the nitrogen blitz.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Mozart said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, on young grass, avoid more than 0.25 of N/M at once. On mature areas, then 0.5 or even 1.0, just be careful with overlaps if you are going higher rates.
> ...


I have seen my biggest growth in the last 10 days..,go look at my journal. In the last 10 days I had big areas start filling in. I have been mowing every 4 days at 1.5 inches. Also something that seemed to help. I used a manual aerator to losin up hard soils in the bare spots. I noticed more activity in those areas. Im at 44 days now so you should be hitting your stride about now.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Spent the last 2 days dethatching the established part of the front lawn with my groundskeeper 2 rake. Mowed the lawn down to 2". I'm planning to keep this section of the lawn at 2" for the rest of the season.

I pulled up a lot of material, the pile below represents 1300 sqft of dethatched debris.

I pulled out a bit more green than I wanted, but I think I actually removed a lot of poa annua (smaller boat tipped blades with crinkles).

The front lawn looks rough and the neighbors probably wonder what I'm doing and think I made a mistake. Hopefully I haven't...

Tomorrow I'm going to do something I hadn't planned - I'm going to overseed the front yard with 1#/1000sqft. I'm basically going to continue the blitz and forget about the 9/23 overseed - just let Mother Nature take its course (supposedly this winter is forecast to be warm). :thumbup:


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Mozart said:


> Spent the last 2 days dethatching the established part of the front lawn with my groundskeeper 2 rake. Mowed the lawn down to 2". I'm planning to keep this section of the lawn at 2" for the rest of the season.
> 
> I pulled up a lot of material, the pile below represents 1300 sqft of dethatched debris. ...


I probably shouldn't possibly hijack your lawn journal, but when I look at the pile of brown that you pulled out of your lawn, it looks to me that it is largely grass clippings and relatively recently-died/dormant grass stems, and not what I see when I look at photos of "thatch" in turf industry publications / photos. Actually, for that matter, whenever I see photos on TLF that show the stuff that homeowners have removed from "dethatching" most of it doesn't look like what I see in turf industry publications as being "thatch," such as in the photo below:










What I see in turf publications as "thatch" looks like a thick, dense layer of very old stems, roots, and rhizomes that are kind of under the growing grass between the crowns of the grass plants and the soil. I always read not to worry about it unless it is 1/2" or more thick, and usually see photos like the one below showing a cross section and the thickness of the thatch layer. (From http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/FS200E/FS200E.pdf).










What was pulled out of your lawn by the dethatcher really doesn't look to me like what is shown as "thatch" in turf industry publications. It also doesn't appear to have been anything near to the amount of stuff that would have formed a 1/2" thick layer over 1300sqft. I see a lot of clippings and biodegradable grass stems, which I think of primarily as food for earthworms and beneficial microorganisms that are good for your lawn. Indeed, I wonder if pulling all of that material out of the lawn kind of sets up a self-fulfilling prophecy -- with less food for earthworms and beneficial microorganisms, there are less earthworms and microorganisms in your lawn, so there's more buildup of that stuff, and ... it's a spiral of ever-increasing non-decaying biomatter.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if that stuff is really thatch and if there's any need to pull it out of the lawn; indeed, I'm wondering if leaving it there and using largely organic fertilization would help get rid of it? I have this completely unsubstantiated hunch that "thatch buildup" is a characteristic of lawns which are primarily fertilized by harsher synthetic fertilizers which cause a decline in earthworms and beneficial microorganisms.

I've never done any "dethatching" on my lawn, but have an incredible earthworm population and have been largely fertilizing with biosolids. I also mulch all my clippings unless I'm trying to avoid smothering baby grass and mulch an incredible number of tree leaves into the lawn in the fall. Our lawn here is pretty hospitable to decay - it's rare to go more than a week without rain; most of my lawn is shaded, so the soil really doesn't ever become complete dried out and sterile. I really have just about no thatch buildup at all in the lawn; when one looks down into the grass, one gets pretty much directly to the soil under a thin layer (less than 1/4" of decaying grass clippings, which generally look to be only a few mowings old, at most.) I understand that others whose lawns aren't surrounded by woods on 3 sides probably don't have as many earthworms and other critters migrating into their lawn continually, and wonder if that's part of my good fortune in having lots of worms, and I can't really make comparisons between my lawn and an urban one.

In any case, sorry for the hijack -- maybe I should form a new thread on this topic, but your posting reminded me of the nagging question in my head...


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

No worries about hijacking (you did not), you brought up some interesting points. I think I mostly removed dead grass and stolons. I don't think I have a very healthy thatch later yet (although I found a few earthworms).

My lawn was very thin this spring - much thinner than now. The KBG in my yard filled in large areas this year, and much of the grass was partly matted down, creating an interwoven mess.

There were also a lot of stolons removed - I didn't spend a lot of time IDing grass but a few samples suggest I pulled up poa annua. The stolons made the weave that much worse.

I figured, even if some of those stolons are thatch layer KBG rhizomes I'd be alright removing them as the roots are relatively superficial and I'm going for a denser, healthier lawn at lower HOC.

Fingers crossed!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Today is day 36. I plan to drop 0.25# N per 1000 sqft tonight. Been maintaining half of my backyard at 1.5" and the other half at 2". Here are some before/after pics:

1.5" HOC side:





2" HOC side:





Some fungus issues on the far end of the 1.5" HOC side. Treated with azoxy - hopefully that will do the trick.



Side yard before/after


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Watching it rain today. The dirt areas shown in "after" pictures above are bare due to poor drainage.

The picture below shows the 2" HOC side, under 2+" of water. This is why I've been so interested in tackifiers, @g-man. Hope to improve drainage but time is a real constraint, if I can't next time i'll buy some tackifier.



Basement shot (basement is dry thankfully):


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Everybody agrees to no more than .25/k of n per app, but what about the final winterizer app on a reno done this fall. Do you think pushing that to .5 would be to much?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Mozart said:


> The picture below shows the 2" HOC side, under 2+" of water. This is why I've been so interested in tackifiers, g-man. Hope to improve drainage but time is a real constraint, if I can't next time i'll buy some tackifier.


I dont think this is poor drainage, but more like poor grading. The water should flow away from your basement. Ideally you want 5-6in drop in 10feet (~5 degrees).

https://basc.pnnl.gov/resource-guides/final-grade-slopes-away-foundation


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> Mozart said:
> 
> 
> > The picture below shows the 2" HOC side, under 2+" of water. This is why I've been so interested in tackifiers, g-man. Hope to improve drainage but time is a real constraint, if I can't next time i'll buy some tackifier.
> ...


It may look like poor grading and that is a contributing factor. The water channels where the landscaping line was cut in the spring time. There was a forest of pachysandra around our house/deck. The dirt within 2-3 ft of the house does not really get wet unless there is 1"+ of rain (like today - 2.3" and counting).

We also have water running from the neighbor's yard into ours (behind the fence). Thinking of a physical barrier or drain in the future.

Threw some arrows in to show how the water moves, but the puddles remain when there is not excess rain such that runoff occurs.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

We had about 4.5" of rain today!



Could be worse. Look at my neighbors yard (looks like his first floor flooded?)


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Have you ever considered a drain to redirect the water out of that area


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

JDgreen18 said:


> Have you ever considered a drain to redirect the water out of that area


I have and regrading/draining are projects for next year. Hard to get the time budget (from the wife) for such projects.

So we officially had 4.65" of rain yesterday! Today, naturally, is warm and humid - perfect for fungus. My car is in the shop so I won't be able to apply more fungicide, but I do believe I need it (saw some dollar spot looking legions).

Like seeding KBG wasn't hard enough :lol:

I'm up for the challenge though and hopefully the backyard is at least a partial success. The extra work is worth it IMO as TTTF/PRG can't compare to KBG in looks or texture.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

It's supposed to cool back down tomorrow so we should be good I'm only a little North of you. I also got almost 5 inches of rain.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I have not mowed, irrigated or done any notable yard work since September 21st. Just too busy. The only work I did was maintain 0.25#/1000sqft/week Nitrogen (timed to coordinate with rain).

I really need to mow but when I finally had time yesterday I decided to trim the forsythia in my backyard instead. This increased my total backyard sqft by about 20% while maintaining the privacy effect. This was a big project but I managed to finish before dusk.

The grass is looking quite mature, I wasn't expecting it to "grow up" so fast but it is getting harder to distinguish from the mature grass (aside from color).

I'm going to maintain the adolescent grass similar to the adult. When I have time I will mow the front at 3" HOC and the back at 2".

Here is the established front yard before/after recovering from dethatching on 9/21, including a partial shot of my tree (Zone 5):





Shot of my side yard (Zone 4) - the KBG looks pretty mature:





Backyard, forsythia trimmed!





Side yard. I'm dealing with some fungal and weed issues here, but nothing I can't handle (hopefully). I'm happy with how it looks overall:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I would mow ASAP, @Mozart The new grass really benefits from low, frequent mows.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> I would mow ASAP, @Mozart The new grass really benefits from low, frequent mows.


I will Jesse, thanks. Been too busy but will mow the front/side at 3" and the back at 2". Although it's been a while since I last mowed I think the new grass has been mowed about 5 times already at 2" or less. I believe it's okay to adjust HOC to the target level now (I think I read that somewhere).

Either way I agree mowing is long overdue... hopefully things dry off a bit.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

jessehurlburt said:


> I would mow ASAP, @Mozart The new grass really benefits from low, frequent mows.


I second this as it looks like your grass is starting to lay over. If it gets to bad you will have to use a blower to try to stand it back up. Shorter grass will help tillering and spreading and more airflow with reduces fungus issues. Other than that its looking good. nice job


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> > I would mow ASAP, @Mozart The new grass really benefits from low, frequent mows.
> ...


Thanks Jim! The grass looks blown over because I used a leaf blower on it right before taking the pictures! :lol: note the weird leaf pattern in the backyard.

I sometimes blow dry the grass on damp days to help prevent fungal problems. I only hit the Reno and problem areas so it takes 5-10 minutes total.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

That explains it, i just didn't want you to get in to trouble with layed over grass that is hard to mow.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Today I finally had decent weather and time to mow.

I'm really pleased with how things look at this point, especially the side yard - it blends right in! I don't think the 2 week mowing hiatus did anything bad to the Reno.

Applied propi at curative rate to combat rust and other random fungus issues and nitrogen at .25#/1000sqft today and watered it all in.

Backyard @ 2" HOC:





Side yard, 2" HOC new grass 3" HOC old:





Tree in front - I weed whacked the baby grass at whatever height :lol:



Front yard, suffering from rust (visible by street) @ 3" HOC:


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Looks amazing... nice deep green color good job


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

JDgreen18 said:


> Looks amazing... nice deep green color good job


Thanks @JDgreen18! Today is day 51 for me. I think the dark green is due to the 2.5 week mowing break. I wasn't expecting the grass to darken until next year but as you can see it's almost as dark as the established KBG. The individual plants resemble adult plants.

Your Reno looks awesome by the way, do you like the KBG or tttf/KBG mix better?


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## rob13psu (May 20, 2018)

Mozart said:


> Tree in front - I weed whacked the baby grass at whatever height :lol:


I love the way that looks with the surface roots of the tree and the grass. Looking really good!


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

JDgreen18 said:


> Your Reno looks awesome by the way, do you like the KBG or tttf/KBG mix better?


Aestheticly speaking I love the look of the mix, and I'd be hard pressed to say that if I went back 10 weeks I wouldn't use the mix instead of all kbg. That being said let's wait until next year to pass judgement as kbg takes time, like a fine wine gets better with age lol.
Here is a little pic of the difference I took yesterday


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

rob13psu said:


> Mozart said:
> 
> 
> > Tree in front - I weed whacked the baby grass at whatever height :lol:
> ...


Thanks rob  I like grass around the tree too - it used to be pachysandra. It is a bit challenging to trim though.

@JDgreen18 yeah the side with tttf looks much fuller. I wonder how much KBG will come through, with the tttf overshadowing it. Can't wait to see it next year!


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Looking great @Mozart !


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks @jessehurlburt!

This morning I found grey fungus along the side of my house. Blew it dry and applied extra propi + azoxystrobin to this area. I hope it'll be alright!

@g-man, does this look like something I can treat or will it get worse? What would you do?

Before blow drying/treating (propi flakes from yesterday didn't seem to stop overnight fungal growth - I did water it in):



After:


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

@Mozart I had the same thing on my tttf/kbg I think it happens when it gets matted down and stays wet from humid weather. I raked the areas cut it down to 2 inches then the blew it dry yesterday sprayed 20ew in those areas seems to be doing better but today I had some other areas so I just used heritage g on the whole area. We just have to get through today and tomorrow and will have a big cool down


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

To me it looks too long and floppy.

That looks like PB. I don't think propi is good for it.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks @JDgreen18 and @g-man.

This is next to the foundation -> hard to properly maintain/mow. Might weed whack it down a bit. Fortunately the sun is out today - hope that helps. Will put a little more azoxystrobin down and monitor.

Also here is a top down picture of one of the renovation areas (front yard bordering neighbor). I think it looks GREAT but also worried that the grass is overcrowded! My hope is to have the entire lawn as dense as this next year:


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## Mrotatori (Aug 13, 2018)

Looking great, your reno is working out


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Mrotatori said:


> Looking great, your reno is working out


Thanks @Mrotatori!

Monitoring the PB today, I think with the lower temperatures and azoxystrobin the disease has stopped spreading. Now I need to decide if I should rake up the affected grass or not.





Spots above are closeups from next to foundation (I may do landscaping here down the road, we'll see):


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I dethatched and overseeded the same KBG mix throughout the front yard on 9/21/18 (26 days ago) and forgot about it while maintaining fall nitrogen.

It paid off!! Today I saw baby KBG throughout the yard which prompted me to lower HOC to 2" for the babies. I plan to maintain 2" for the rest of the year. It looks better than I thought it would!

Below is a comparison of 2" HOC immediately after dethatching and again today after a 2" mow.

Before (9/21/18):







After (10/17/18):


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

Good work! Dramatic difference!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

samjonester said:


> Good work! Dramatic difference!


Thanks Sam 

I also applied 0.5# N per 1000sqft today - hoping it thickens up some more and further adjusts to the lower HOC.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Had a chance to take a better pic today while the sun was still out. It looks even better today (vs yesterday) in my opinion! What a difference 27 days makes!

2" HOC 10/18/18:



2" HOC 9/21/18:


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## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

Big improvement and those roots are awesome


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

NoslracNevok said:


> Big improvement and those roots are awesome


Thanks! :thumbup:

I think the roots look nice too, like a hand gripping the soil. But it's a PITA to mow :lol: accidentally trimmed one of the roots on Wednesday :?


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I mulched leaves in with grass clippings today. Hope it doesn't smother any new grass.

The Reno is almost indistinguishable in color from the old grass, maybe even darker in a few places!

(Reno left old grass right - can't see the line anymore)


(Reno on left)


(Reno in back)


After mulching:


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Mozart said:


> I mulched leaves in with grass clippings today. Hope it doesn't smother any new grass.
> ...
> After mulching:


That looks good. It doesn't look like those leaves are smothering any grass in the next few days.

Presumably, you'll be mulch mowing again within about 5-7 days or so, at which time the larger leaf pieces that you can see on the surface now will get cut into still smaller pieces (and replaced by new larger leaf pieces from the leaves that haven't fallen yet.)

The density of leaf pieces you have in there looks a lot like the below photo I took a few days ago...

With future similar mulch-mowings, you'll be just fine!

Far End as of 2018-10-30 (Day 66), Halfway Done Mulching Leaves:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Thanks @ken-n-nancy. I didn't want to miss out on an opportunity to add organic material! I hope the earthworms enjoy it and aerate my back yard 

We're supposed to have rain all day tomorrow (and 70 degrees!!?!) which I think will help it all break down.

The front yard overseed (9/22) does look "weak" but hanging on. It seems that it had time to conclude sprout and pout and then top growth halted due to a change in weather. I hope it survives the winter! I'm counting on it to add some darker greens to my nomix so that it blends better with the pure KBG Reno.

On a side note my side yard needs a lot of work to address undesirable grassy weeds. My neighbor's creeping Charlie is taking over again and I've got some Zoysia, bentgrass and nimblewill that have to go. Projects for next year :thumbup:


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

The lawn is slowly turning brown (tall fescue first?), it seems like dormancy is setting in.

Will probably have 2-3 more mows before growth stops but I don't expect much, so here are some end of season pictures.

Front yard 2" HOC:



Side yard 3" HOC:



Haven't had a chance to cleanup backyard but will post some pictures when I do.

Here is my side yard domination line after the neighbor cleaned up his leaves. *My yard looked like his last December when we moved in*! Unfortunately I didn't take any "before pics" in the spring - just started fixing things!



(Side yard has a nimblewill/Zoysia patch browning early in case anyone was wondering)


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## jdc_lawnguy (Oct 30, 2018)

You made quite an improvement. Looks good


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