# High Traffic Trouble Area



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I have a high traffic trouble area which has gotten worse over the last couple of years. It had a severe setback last year at this time from some contractors (and yours truly, 
of course) compacting the area along the side of my house. It's on my project list to mechanically decompact the area and add stepping stones, to increase the chances of growing a decent turf stand.

Most of my yard is a mix of KBG, TTTF and some FF. Overall, I am changing over to as much KBG as possible through mini renos and overseeding (eventually larger renos will be completed, as it becomes feasible).

As much as I would like to grow KBG via pots, plugs, etc., I've come to the realization that PRG is probably the best way to go for this location (I've tried TTTF there, too). I figure that I will routinely overseed as needed (as I've done with TTTF and KBG, unsuccessfully). I'm considering the tri-rye blend from SSS (SS9000), which has Grand Slam GLD, Stellar 3GL, and Karma.  It's difficult to impossible to rope off the area, as it is the only access through the gate to the backyard.

A full walkway is out of the question for the near future.

Depending on how much "Living Ground Cover" I have in the spring will determine if I attempt spring seeding of PRG. I dormant seeded my entire yard with Bewitched/Mazama/Beyond during January, but I doubt that it will help this area at all.

I will look into sourcing a tri-rye blend locally, that has NTEP rated cultivars (Seabiscuit is one he carried last year).

Does this sound like a realistic approach? What about cultivar selection? My knowledge base is not strong with PRG.

Also, I have a "poor man's irrigation system" elsewhere in the yard, but not in this location.

I did some research on TLF, but didn't find any related threads. If anyone is aware of any would you please direct me to them?

Thanks in advance.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, interesting ideas.

Why do you feel TTPR is better than TTTF for our area? While PR has some advantages (which aren't always easy to pinpoint--see my latest ATY thread for a real paradox related to PR), I feel TTTF/KBG mix is about as good as it gets for our area.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Btw, I would love to get my hands on some Karma, too. I think LI Cauliflour has it.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Green said:


> @Chris LI, interesting ideas.
> 
> Why do you feel TTPR is better than TTTF for our area? While PR has some advantages (which aren't always easy to pinpoint--see my latest ATY thread for a real paradox related to PR), I feel TTTF/KBG mix is about as good as it gets for our area.


I agree, but it's pretty much a last resort. I would prefer a TTTF/KBG mix, but haven't been able to get it to survive, so back to the drawing board. I'm hoping the sports turf technique with routine seeding of high traffic areas (goal mouths, between the hash marks, etc.) with quick germination/maturity rates is the only way I could get something to grow. TTTF germinates quickly, but PRG is even faster. I'm hoping the density of PRG will help too. Will that even matter? Do you have any suggestions?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, I think I would do the same. There is actually evidence that PR that exhibits pseudostolon growth behavior does so in response to foot traffic. Have you heard this?

The only thing is, I've been noticing that PR does really well in irrigated lawns with good soil. There are some people around my area, one in particular, who have a KBG/PR mix, and has always been pretty good at keeping up with the watering, and the PR has survived for a long time. I don't know how much overseeding he has done; I should ask.

But in poor soil and lack of irrigation, it tends to continually die out over the years in my experience...after our Summers and Winters, both of which are tough on it.

I seeded 7 years ago with a 75% TTPR and 25% KBG mix, and now there is mostly KBG there whereas the first year or two it was mostly PR, but it was a poor soil situation with lack of irrigation.

I feel like a bit more North and Coastal, like Southeastern Mass, is a perfect place for PR. Especially in the city where it's insulated better.

So, is it just that one area you're having issues? If it's continually high traffic, decompacting every so often would only get you so far.

I'm having Winter traffic issues from contractors right now. I dormant seeded the area yesterday just in case I get some die-off. I'm using TTTF seed for that, but the idea should be the same.

I guess a combination of PR seed and KBG plugs is what I'd use regularly in your situation, along with mechanical decompaction and humic acid every so often. Hard to say because I haven't actually tried it.

I only have about 0.3M area these days that's a PR/KBG mix (with a bit of FF encroaching into it slowly, and tons of Poa Trivialis). It's a somewhat sloped area on the side with poor soil. I have a tough time getting grass through the Summer there.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

As far as cultivars, I'm not up on all of them, but Karma, Panther GLS, Keystone 2, and Palmer III, IV, and V have my attention. So does Pizzazz 2 GLR, but none was grown and sold in 2018.

All the other cultivars I've used are highly rated: Fiesta 4, Wicked, Zoom, SR4600, SR4420, ASP1001GL, ASP6001, ASP6002, ASP6003, ASP6005, and ASP6006.

There are other good ones, too.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green 
No, I haven't heard of:

"There is actually evidence that PR that exhibits pseudostolon growth behavior does so in response to foot traffic. Have you heard this?"

However, it looks like I have some reading to do. It sounds very interesting.

That is the 'worst of the worst' areas (about 100 sq ft). Wheelbarrow fulls of fresh concrete in (last week of Jan. '18), and wheelbarrows full of concrete rubble out (April-June '18), pretty much sums it up. The other areas are manageable; I just need to spend a little extra time on them. I'll check out the thread from ATY, when I have a chance.

Thanks for the suggestions.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green 
Thanks for all of the PRG rated cultivars. I've heard of some of them (Panther GLS, the Palmers, Fiesta 4, SR 4600). I'll have to find out if my local source carries them.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> Green
> Thanks for all of the PRG rated cultivars. I've heard of some of them (Panther GLS, the Palmers, Fiesta 4, SR 4600). I'll have to find out if my local source carries them.


You're welcome. Btw, the ASP cultivar series from Allied Seed was always available under the Agway Tri-Rye house brand, but I haven't checked there in several years. They are very competitive; better than Fiesra 4 in many ways according to various NTEP trials. They weren't advertised as spreading cultivars, but I consistently found pseudostolons and spreading from my ASP cultivars. Fiesta 4, Zoom, SR4600, etc., are advertised as spreading cultivars.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Thanks. I was wondering who produced the ASP cultivars.

I looked up a study on the pseudostolon PRG and found some interesting info. Coincidentally, I had to contact one of my seed suppliers at work today regarding an old invoice and asked him what PRG cultivars they are carrying this year. One of them appears in the study with good results (Apple SGL). FYI-they are carrying Palmer III this year, too. If you have a hard time sourcing it, PM me, and I can give you their info.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328372181_Stolon_Development_in_Four_Turf-Type_Perennial_Ryegrass_Cultivars


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> FYI-they are carrying Palmer III this year, too. If you have a hard time sourcing it, PM me, and I can give you their info.
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328372181_Stolon_Development_in_Four_Turf-Type_Perennial_Ryegrass_Cultivars


Thanks, will do. I'll try LI C-flour first, hopefully this week.

Great study! Too bad no Pizzazz 2 was grown this year.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI,

What has been your experience with Spring recovery from traffic at this time of year? I have the areas alongside the driveway and front walk that have been used a lot this past month. The grass was at least 2 inches at the final mow, but is now down to maybe 0.5 in from the treading. It's also a bit browner than the other areas. I used my blower and rake on it a few times lightly, and then dormant overseeded it last weekend. I figured the traffic this week would help work the seed into the soil better. In the Fall, I mulch mowed a lot of lot of leaves into the lawn. That seemed to help cushion it, too.

Any other tips? I'm thinking some mechanical decompaction and humic acid first thing in late Winter when it starts to thaw out. And eventually some liquid fertilizer in April.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Also, I'm adding Apple SGL to my candidates list.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

My experience is similar to yours, I think you are basically doing all that you can for this time of year.

Overall, with the freeze/thaw cycle we've been having, it's a double edged sword. It will help us with incorporating seed into the soil, but with the rain we've had, I'm having issues in another area.

Our driveway is two bays wide, but should be a foot or so wider on each side. As a result, my wife (who parks on the left side) routinely misses the edge of the driveway and ruts up the edge of the lawn. In addition, the foot traffic now spans a few more feet onto the lawn. My seed has really been incorporated into that area.  I was hoping to add a paver edge last year, but got busy building a deck, so maybe this year...and yes, when I cut out the turf, it will be my mini sod farm. 

One other idea that I am toying around with is using the same plan for dealing with my Norway Maple. I bought a 3/4" x 13" masonry bit to "drill and fill" the area with mason sand (with a large funnel). The process won't be efficient necessarily, but may help with mechanical decompaction and drainage. This area tends to hold a lot of water with all the organic matter. I realize that I will bring some weed seeds to the surface, but believe the benefits will outweigh the risks.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, thanks. I very lightly raked it today. I wanted to get to it before it gets cold again.

Same thing here...driveway is 2 vehicles wide, but probably 3 feet narrower than would be ideal as a minimum. Two pickup trucks can barely fit next to each other, but without room to walk without using the grass.

I finished fixing the area that was runover on the edge about 2 weeks ago. Since the soil was soft finally, I was able to push the turf back together, pinch it closed, and visually eliminate the cut in the edge.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green 


Green said:


> Also, I'm adding Apple SGL to my candidates list.


I'd like to add it too. However, I'm not sure if I can get it in small quantities.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green 


Green said:


> @Chris LI, thanks. I very lightly raked it today. I wanted to get to it before it gets cold again.
> 
> Same thing here...driveway is 2 vehicles wide, but probably 3 feet narrower than would be ideal as a minimum. Two pickup trucks can barely fit next to each other, but without room to walk without using the grass.
> 
> I finished fixing the area that was runover on the edge about 2 weeks ago. Since the soil was soft finally, I was able to push the turf back together, pinch it closed, and visually eliminate the cut in the edge.


This sounds way too familiar. The area is lumpy and some turf peeled up. I lightly tamped down the worst areas with my work boots before the freeze tonight. If I have time to play around with the "drill and fill" technique, I hope that it will stabilize the area, and firm it up kind of like a USGA sand based green.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Chris LI said:


> Green
> 
> 
> Green said:
> ...


Let me look around online for a few minutes...

Edit: I see that United Seeds might have it. I'll have to call Mr. Hoyt again to see.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green 
Thanks.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green

I'm going to bounce this over from "Bulleye is Done", because I'm looking to hit on the PRG. I'm still sad to see Bullseye fall by the wayside, but appreciate the explanation. 

... back to the PRG discussion. You referenced Karma and I'm still considering PRG for this location and thinking of blending it with Apple SGL, for its spreading capabilities (as we've discussed). I think we're of similar philosophy, in which we like to drop seed as a significant portion of our turfgrass strategy. However, I'm still on the fence about using PRG, as I'm really trying to cultivate kbg. I've been patiently waiting to see if the area will fill in with the kbg dormant seed and to see if the secondary dormant seed of that old TTTF dense seed will germinate. As you know, I have a Pro Plugger that I'm jonesing to use (definitely in that location). It's still too early to tell, but I'll need to pick up some PRG soon, if I want to play with that area. I like your suggestion of seeding PRG in combination with plugging kbg in that area, and am trying to decide if I should wait a little and only Pro Plugger it, for one last try, before resorting to seeding PRG in the fall or next spring. I need to wait a smidge more to see what dormant seed pops, before committing to a plan. It's not a highly visible area from the street, so uniformity is not a huge concern. What is your opinion?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I would say it's all about what traits you want/need in the area, and how long you're willing to wait for establishment.

For example:

-Wear tolerance? Incorporate some PR.
-Fine texture and shine? +1 for PR.
-Fast establishment? PR
-Heat and drought tolerance? KBG or even Tall Fescue.
-Spreading? KBG by far.
-Already have a mix and want to keep it that way? Use the same types again.

But from a purely speed perspective, you can't beat KBG plugs plus a PR overseed at the same time...especially in Spring. The KBG eventually interweaves, as long as you don't use too high a seed rate. I usually keep PR seed under 20% by weight when mixing. Sometimes below 10% is there's already a lot of PR there. So a little goes a long way.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Also, the seed that's already down is going to take a bit of time if it works, as you said. No matter what you do, you'll be waiting for that time anyway, whether you end up doing more Spring seeding or not. I'm not sure how far ahead your soil temps than mine, but it can't be more than 2 weeks difference at most.

If it's truly a high traffic area, I like the idea of adding PR into the mix. And you get some new genetics in there, too. It's not like you're starting with a straight KBG blend or anything...from what you've said there is already a mix going on there.

In my backyard, I stick with the five grass varieties (two species) that were in my original mix only, and dig out any ryegrass I find (only happened twice so far). In the main front, I don't mind mixing in something new every so often. Upper side is KBG and PR with a bit of FF. Low input area, I'll use just about any cool season turf variety that will work at this point.

I still have to make more calls for PR seed next week so I'll let you know who has what from my original list.


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## LawnCreepsLtd (Sep 8, 2018)

@Chris LI I would definitely wait to see if you get results from your dormant seeding but have your finger on the trigger with the rye. It has the most wear and traffic tolerance of all the cool season grasses so its worth a shot. It should blend in very well with your bluegrass and give you the strength your looking for, just go with several varieties to hedge your bets. Continually aerating it every fall/spring is still going to be a must for that soil structure...especially if it gets tons of foot traffic. Did you say 100 sq ft area? That might be just out of the comfort zone of a manual aerator, but those are nice to have to just keep a somewhat small high traffic area from severe compaction. Good luck brother, and kudos to you guys for spouting off the names of all these cultivars like it's nuthin' That's some next level grass geek stuff right there.....


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Since I'm still up listening to news, I thought I'd add:

I use the PR seed as a quick fix in the areas that have PR. There is such an established base of KBG in most of my areas, that unless I kill a section, I don't have to seed with KBG. The rhizomes already there start reactivating when I start watering the PR seed. Same with the TTTF areas. If I have slight damage, I'll often just reseed with TTTF only and let the existing KBG come back into the area on it's own since it does a good job of that.

If I kill an area, I of course end up having to mix in KBG seed or plugs, which is why I suggested that combo to you. It'll look patchy for a few months, but it'll eventually all blend together and look pretty even...especially with the PR varieties that spread a bit.

I'm excited to use the ProPlugger too, but I plan to be careful so I don't spread Poa Triv or even Bentgrass around. I plan to use it mainly in the low input area. In the past, I always did plugs by hand using remnants from edging or plants that got into mulch beds.

Speaking of which, I asked Stephen at Hogan today if it's true that larger seeds like TTTF have less chance of Poa contamination than smaller seed like KBG due to the screens in the filtering that the seed farmers use, and he said absolutely, and also added that in some cases they use selective herbicides in Fescue and Ryegrass fields to kill Poa species (herbicides which of course can't be used on KBG). He said lower cost Fescue seed (such as KY-31) might be more likely to have contamination from any species. Of course, they only buy and sell clean seed.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@Green

Thank you! I'm not on the fence any more. I'll be picking up some PRG. A lot of what you pointed out was what was going through my head and I needed an objective viewpoint to confirm adding the PRG is the right approach.

@LawnCreepsLtd

Thank you for your support! I have a small manual aerator collecting dust. I'll need to dig it up, to give it a try. The area would probably fail the screwdriver test, which is part of the problem. And, yes, the area is small, about 5' x 20', so I only need a little PRG seed, as Green mentioned. That was another reason why I was a little hesitant on picking up some seed, but I'll store the remainder as I do with the rest of my seed.


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## LawnCreepsLtd (Sep 8, 2018)

@Chris LI whatever you do buddy you're gonna succeed man. You got the passion and the knowledge. Good luck. The only other thing I would possibly mention is to not only manually aerate it regularly but maybe think about top dressing it with a nice bagged compost in that area. Creating that nice loose nutrient rich soil full of billions of beneficial micro life is going to allow that grass to grow super deep roots which is going to help It withstand the traffic and every other type of stress. Keep us posted brother.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, hopefully that Fescue mix ends up germinating once the soil temps reach the target range. If it does, nice thing about the PR is you seed it almost anytime of the year. You'll be doing germination watering anyway if it doesn't rain.

As far as the plugger, if I had a Zoysia issue like you, I'd be careful with that, too. I guess I'd make sure I knew exactly what was where.


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## LawnCreepsLtd (Sep 8, 2018)

@Chris LI ...Damn dude just re-read and edited the "sexy" comment. Damn auto-correct. LOL....obviously meant "succeed"...!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

In my area that received traffic during the second half of the Winter (including sometimes while frozen), it looks as if the ryegrass in the mixture has held up the best. The Fescues haven't done too badly either, and actually some of the new Tall Fescue blades coming in now are hard to tell apart from ryegrass even when you get really close, because they're so fine. (I used some TTTF that was supposed to have a finer texture.)


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