# Nonionic surfactants?



## kaptain_zero

A thought just crossed my mind, nonionic surfactants are not available for sale in Canada to us lowely home owners, however many have used dish detergents and shampoo's to varying degrees of success.

I was just wondering if anyone has tried your typical rinse agent for the dishwasher? It's basically a surfactant without any thickeners or suds creating ingredients. I have no idea if it is a nonionic surfactant, but perhaps someone on the forum knows more than me.... very likely really! :mrgreen:

I picked up a 4 liter jug of Fiesta (the legal iron based weed control) and the guy behind the counter said that adding some soap/detergent to the mix was helpful on more established weeds that have grown during drought conditions as they tended to get a waxy coating that could cause a reduction in effect. He also pointed out that this is basically a burn down of the top growth, rather than killing the roots, so a second app at around 21 days which is when the tender leaves shoot back up would be more successful as the weeds would run out of steam.

I like the speed that it works at... the weeds are visibly gone in a matter of days. Another thing he mentioned was rainfast issues... It needs at LEAST 12 hours before any rain.... if it's gonna rain in less than 12 hours, it's pointless to spray the stuff on and at the cost of this stuff, you don't want to waste it!


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## FlowRider

What is the government's rationale for not allowing Canadians to purchase nonionic surfactants for their lawns?

It is just a detergent that helps break surface tension. Or is this "make work" legislation for licensed contractors?


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## Gibby

@kaptain_zero I use dawn all the time when I run out of NIS.


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## kaptain_zero

@FlowRider Elected politicians will not allow themselves to be intimidated by an elector using devious tactics like "logic or common sense". The Federal government approves many chemicals for use by homeowners, but local (Provincial) bodies may make their own rules that supersede the Federal ones. Surfactants for "herbicide" use may not be sold to homeowners OR lawn care companies (as far as I know)in my Province. Indeed, products like the common 3-way weedkiller may NOT be used by homeowners or lawn care companies (for cosmetic purposes) in my Province, however, golf courses and farmers may purchase and use them to their hearts content. The same applies to fungicides and various insecticides for things such as grubs. Plant nurseries can also purchase many of these products that cannot be legally sold to homeowners or lawn care companies. However, when I order products from places like Seed World, if the package is inspected upon arrival in Canada, Federal law reigns and as long as the products is not prohibited and is marked for "domestic" use, it will be allowed. (again, as far as I know)

While over at my favorite local golf course supply shop, I noted that they have concentrated Roundup in 1L containers (quart size). I asked about it and was told that *IF* I asked for it to kill grass and weeds in my driveway, they could not sell it to me, but If I asked for it to kill grass and weeds in my vegetable garden, it was fine and I could purchase it. <insert sound of my eyes rolling here>

It IS legal to purchase and use a domestic labeled 3-way herbicide or non selective herbicide for "noxious" weeds, however nowhere is there a government provided list of what weeds are "noxious". I know they have mentioned weeds such as poison oak and ivy, purple loosestrife etc., but they don't list ANYTHING in print. <groan>

@Gibby Yes, I use Dawn... I use it for cleaning windows too! I was just wondering if dish washing rinse aid would work as well, seeing it's water thin, has little scent and does not seem to cause much in the way of bubbles. As for efficiency, Matt of "The Grass Factor" fame on youtube has mentioned that some surfactants are "hotter" or in other words, work better than others. So... I was just wondering if the surfactant in popular rinse agents are non-ionic.


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## Gibby

@kaptain_zero ahhhh duh, yeah now I know what you are talking about lol. Let me know how it goes....


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## crazymas0n

How much dish soap are you guys mixing in for spraying? Any procedure to avoid turning the whole container into suds? Are you guys blanket spraying applications, is this safe for the lawn? I can buy a surfactant in BC but it's like $70 a bottle, would rather not...


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## Gibby

I think @Greendoc said 0.5oz/1gal


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## Greendoc

1/2 oz per gallon. You can use silicone spray lube as an anti foam.


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## kaptain_zero

Ah.... good idea, I'll have to try some of that silicone spray. I mixed up a couple of gallons using Dawn and I carefully measured 2 squirts per gallon. <grin>

It did make my wands' valve sticky, so I had to assist the trigger with my fingers to shut off the flow. It could just be the cheap wand I'm using is failing or the rubber in the valve got too sticky. A new wand of the same type is only about $20 and compared to the stuff I spray through it.... it's cheap.

At least marking dye is OK to buy here, and it came in handy when I spot sprayed. I just wish it didn't get EVERYWHERE when I was mixing it up.... Jeez, just the tiniest drop will spread and spread and spread......<sigh>

Matt Martin of The Grass Factor has a good video on Non-ionic surfactants etc. titled "What Is the BEST Surfactant For Lawn Care Professionals? - ALL ABOUT SURFACTANTS", if someone wishes to search for it on Youtube. He spells out the differences between non-ionic, methylated seed oils etc. and I think I almost started to understand what he was talking about.

@crazymas0n As long as you keep it to a reasonable amount, I don't see any harm with using dish soap. I've often tossed the rest of my bucket of car wash suds on the lawn when I'm done washing my car.... never had a problem.


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