# Renovation guide (cool season)



## g-man

*Renovation guide
*​
A renovation is a great way to start over and get the lawn you want. It removes all the unknown grass types from your lawn. It is a great opportunity to level the yard and get a more consistent look.

But a renovation is a lot of work. Careful planning helps a lot, but mother nature normally has the last word. You can get lucky and have great temps with light rains or downpours/drought that destroy your work. It can be very rewarding but stressful and expensive.

I will strongly advise not to do a renovation until you at least have a year of proper lawn care knowledge. Get your current lawn to look the best, then kill it. A few of the things that you need to master before a renovation:


 Spraying - proper overlaps with a calibrated sprayer is needed for round up, tenacity, fungicide applications. Know your system and practice with it.
 Irrigation practices - figure out how to get good coverage.
 Id and treat fungus - Have the products and be ready to spray. If you have to post pictures and wait for answers of what it is and what to buy, you will be loosing time making the fungus spread more.
 Grass types - Get to know the different grass types and what works well for your area/yard. Doing a renovation and then regretting the seed choices is not fun. Some members have done a second renovation just to change the seed types. 
 Manage expectations with the significant other and life - It is going to take a lot of your time (eg. buying stuff, preparing, practicing). Going on vacation in the middle of a renovation is not ideal. A business trip can screw up your plans. The lawn will be unusable for a while, so plan what to do with the kids or dog. 

Timing​
Most renovations start 8 weeks from seed down in the fall. Mid august is the most typical date. You want to pick a day that gives you enough time for the grass to grow before winter. Using mid August will give you 10-12 weeks before grow slows down. It is also not too early that you are not dealing with 95F days and drought (lets hope). You seed choice will also affect this choice. PRG is becomes a lawn a lot faster than KBG, so you could start later with it.

Steps​
The following steps are not all inclusive and other will have a different approach. I tried to avoid using dates since we have a lot of different climates. There is an overseed thread too.


 Convince the significant other or at least plan for forgiveness.

 Source your seeds. Here is a thread with some places.

 Look at other members renovations from your area. See what worked for them. What they struggled with. Ask them questions.

T minus 8 weeks - Seeds are ordered and I'm tracking FedeX for delivery. You want to order at least double the qty you need in case there is an issue (eg, irrigation system broke, downpour, fungus). You want it at hand before round up. Start mowing low and bagging. If you need lime (per soil test), now is the time to do it.

T minus 7 weeks - Get a large container of round up concentrate. Practice your calibration of spraying with just water if needed. Do an irrigation audit to test the system and make sure it is all working. Mowing should be at the lowest without scalping (we need it green for round up to work) and bagging. Get a few seeds and test the germination in a moist paper towel.

T minus 6 weeks (the point of no return) - Do any drastic amendment of soils know, per your soil test. Apply round up. Dont think that more is better. Follow the label. We want a slow kill to the roots not a leaf burn. That means you want to use only glyphosate. Use a dye or go in two directions to get even coverage.

T minus 5 weeks - It should be brown by now. Start bag mowing at the low settings to pick up the debris. Keep watering daily to promote the weeds to germinate (aka fallowing). Check your irrigation coverage, puddles/dry spots.

T minus 4 weeks - The ground should be fairly clear and you can start to get it smooth. Address any dips/hills. Keep watering and check your irrigation coverage. The dry/wet soil makes it easy to spot issues now. If you need to get top soil, now is the time, so you can fallow it too. Use a hose/timer to complement your irrigation if needed. Continue the watering to grow weeds.

T minus 3 weeks - Second round of round up, lets kill the weeds. Weight your seeds and place in a ziplock bag. Label it by zones/areas.

T minus 2 weeks - Start looking at long range forecast. Adjust the seed down (early or later) based on heavy downpours or too hot weather. Do your tenacity calculations and get them on paper (4oz/acre rate no NIS). Get any ground cover you want to use (eg. peat moss). Straw is 1% weed, so avoid it. For hills, grow blankets work. Check Ryan Knorr youtube videos.

T minus 1 week - Start raking and making sure the the top 1/4in of soil is not compacted.

T minus 2 days - apply round up. Get the drink of choice.

Seed down - Do another raking and drop the seed. Rake again, then roll (stomp on it if you have to). *Seed to soil contact is the key*. You want the seeds to be 1/8 to 1/4in below the surface. Apply a phosphorous source if you soil test shows that you are low and spray tenacity. Drop the covering. Start the watering and drinking. No need to apply nitrogen, the seed has all it needs to grow for now.

Next 18 days - monitor the watering and the green babies. You want the soil moist, but not wet. You do not want to let it dry. Ideal times for me in the past, 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm and maybe 9pm. It depends on the temperature, sun/clouds and wind. It is a constant tweaking (a wyze webcam helps to monitor when not home). After germination happens, I back off from the night watering to avoid fungus. Monitor for fungus and use a fungicide if needed. Propi fungicide is safe to use and beneficial in young grass

Now start counting from germination and not from seed down:

 14 days after germination (DAG) - Apply a fast nitrogen source (eg. urea, AMS) at a low rate (0.2lb of N/ksqft). 
 21 days after germination- look for no germination zones and apply more seeds if needed. Start tweaking the irrigation to go a little longer and less frequent. Again, all based on your weather.
 28 DAG - Apply tenacity (4oz/acre rate no nis) and it depends on the weed pressure. 
 28 DAG - another spoon feeding of nitrogen(0.2lb of N/ksqft) and maybe some milo.
 around 28 DAG or whenever the grass is above 2in in height - mow at 1.5 to 2in. Yes be careful in the turns but it will be fine. Let the soil dry a hair before mowing. A manual light weight push reel mower helps. Keep mowing at this height for ~4 weeks. Keeping it below the 2in mark helps the grass to grow tilers and spread.
 45 days - more nitrogen as needed (0.2lb of N/ksqft). Keep using a fast nitrogen source.
 60 days - Apply a PreM (prodiamine). Continue feeding the lawn and add P and K if your soil needs it. 
 Herbicides and PreM after seeding 

Spring​
It might look thin. You might think it was a failure. Don't panic and start spoon feeding (0.20 - 0.25lb of N/ksqft) weekly. It is still young and it will need some help. The grass doesnt have a strong root system, so the spoon feeding helps provide a constant food source that the roots can handle. As the grass gets more mature, switch to every two weeks and then monthly. Weeds, there will be some. I tend to hand pull and deal with poa a using tenacity. Prem in spring is helpful to prevent weed competition.

_Final thoughts_

Have a backup and a second backup plan. There is a lot of risk/luck in a reno and some times it doesnt play out. you might want a KBG monostand, but settle for ryegrass or buying sod instead of mud next year.

Doing a Reno? Start a your journal. Share a brief description of your plans. Ask Reno specific questions. It helps to keep it all in one place to get proper guidance from experienced members.


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## Budstl

Excellent post. Thanks for taking your time to make it.


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## MarkJor

Thanks for putting this together. I did a KBG reno last fall and I'm definitely in that "starting to panic" mindset. I've been debating when to start my weekly spoon feeding, seeming I'm in Michigan and temps are just starting to stay in the 50's consistently. Any do you recommend going with 46-0-0 urea or a more balanced fert for the spring spoon feeding?


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## uts

Sticky please?


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## g-man

@MarkJor if you have green up, then start nitrogen. Use balance only if your soil needs P or K, otherwise just use urea.

@uts I added this to the list of articles within the cool season guide. This way we only have one sticky per folder.


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## Guest

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## Blue1987

Thank you for this post. I'm brand new to the lawn care and just moved into my home in February. I had planned on renovating both my front and back yard because of it being in terrible conditioning by previous owners with TONS of weeds basically the entire thing smh with little grass, and the soil has being very low 5.7 (recently got results from soil test). I have been reading this forum a lot and asked a few questions to gain more knowledge.

I think I will hold off on renovation this fall and wait until next year. I want to gain even more knowledge and purchase more equipment and necessary things piece by piece instead of rushing to buy all at once especially at a time now with this coronavirus epidemic. I only have and recently purchased a Brinly Broadcast Spreader with side deflector P20-500BHDF, and will be buying lime on Thursday. By next year I should have a full lineup.

What should I do from now until I begin renovation next year to get ready? I would really appreciate any suggestions. (Lime, premerge/post, continue mowing down the weeds and little grass?)


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## rob13psu

@g-man so the Tenacity application at 20-28 days after germination should not have a surfactant mixed in? Just a soil based application? I'm glad you mentioned that!


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## g-man

@rob13psu you probably can use nis, but I've not done that. I've had issues with too much tenacity in the past, so I play it safe. I prefer to deal with a few weeds than a failed reno.


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## Blue1987

any suggestions on my post @g-man ? Much appreciated 🙏🏼


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## g-man

@Blue1987 just follow the cool season guide (test soil, etc).


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## ArtOfWar626

Awesome post! Thank you for sharing.

Would you say that its still necessary to glyphosate your lawn if it requires anywhere from 2" to 5" inches of leveling? So new soil would be added on top of the existing lawn.


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## ArtOfWar626

Also, have you used Ethofumesate during a fall renovation? It's a pre-emergent for Poa Annua. I'd recommend adding that in during seeding if you could add it into your renovation.


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## g-man

ArtOfWar626 said:


> Awesome post! Thank you for sharing.
> 
> Would you say that its still necessary to glyphosate your lawn if it requires anywhere from 2" to 5" inches of leveling? So new soil would be added on top of the existing lawn.


Yes. The new soil will have weeds.


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## g-man

ArtOfWar626 said:


> Also, have you used Ethofumesate during a fall renovation? It's a pre-emergent for Poa Annua. I'd recommend adding that in during seeding if you could add it into your renovation.


I haven't but it is a good strategy.


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## ROJ_3030

Another great write up! Thanks again for all your contributions.


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## ArtOfWar626

g-man said:


> ArtOfWar626 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome post! Thank you for sharing.
> 
> Would you say that its still necessary to glyphosate your lawn if it requires anywhere from 2" to 5" inches of leveling? So new soil would be added on top of the existing lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. The new soil will have weeds.
Click to expand...

So you would recommend to glyphosate the existing lawn. Then add in the new soil. Level it out the new soil. Glyphosate the soil. Then days later start the seeding and continue on the regular steps?


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## g-man

Yes. I will fallow that new soil for at least 2 weeks. That's what I did with my reno. I know my soil had low qty of weed seeds, but no clue on that soil I brought.


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## ArtOfWar626

g-man said:


> Yes. I will fallow that new soil for at least 2 weeks. That's what I did with my reno. I know my soil had low qty of weed seeds, but no clue on that soil I brought.


You have a solid point there. Thanks for the advice.


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## Alex1389

@g-man Thoughts on going with .5 N/M weekly in the first spring after a reno or is that overkill?


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## npompei

Alex1389 said:


> @g-man Thoughts on going with .5 N/M weekly in the first spring after a reno or is that overkill?


I've been following the .25lbs weekly and it's helped my yard tremendously. Nice and green. Now, here in PA the weather has been horrible this entire month so I haven't had a big green spring up but it's been growing slowly. I'm sure a bit more wouldn't hurt but the .25lbs has been seemingly working well


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## Zip-a-Dee-Zee

Excellent post as usual @g-man. I spent this past winter preparing by using @Pete1313 2017 Bewitched Renovation as a template so it's reassuring to know I didn't miss anything. One thing I noticed is that Pete used a slightly higher dose of Urea (0.35-0.46# N/M) for his weekly feedings so I'm wondering how much is too much when you're applying Nitrogen?


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## g-man

Yes you can get away with more N. Strive for a healthy grow. I prefer to keep my rate at 0.25lb of N/ksqft and adjust the frequency (6 days or 8days) based on weather and what I'm seeing.


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## Pete1313

Excellent post @g-man! Where do you find the time! :lol:



g-man said:


> [*] 21-28 DAG - Apply tenacity (4oz/acre rate no nis) and it depends on the weed pressure.


I would disagree not using NIS. I see your thought though.



Zip-a-Dee-Zee said:


> Excellent post as usual @g-man. I spent this past winter preparing by using @Pete1313 2017 Bewitched Renovation as a template so it's reassuring to know I didn't miss anything. One thing I noticed is that Pete used a slightly higher dose of Urea (0.35-0.46# N/M) for his weekly feedings so I'm wondering how much is too much when you're applying Nitrogen?





g-man said:


> Yes you can get away with more N. Strive for a healthy grow. I prefer to keep my rate at 0.25lb of N/ksqft and adjust the frequency (6 days or 8days) based on weather and what I'm seeing.


.25 lbs of N/M is good advice. You could do a little higher like I did and not have any issues. Some might argue that higher than .25 lbs of N/M might be wasted as the grass is not mature enough to take it all in. there is also risk of burning and mistakes as the rate goes up. One thing to @g-man's point is that there is no doubt a new lawn needs more N. Especially during the grow-in year. 50% more then a mature lawn? 100% more? That can be debatable and individual lawn based, but light and frequent is the way to go. :thumbsup:


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## Jay20nj

I live in nj and am planning a reno this year. I have about 4 different grass types and want to go mono. I have never done a reno but have a pretty good idea on what to expect. Planning a kbg reno so what will be the best seed down date for that? Im thinking mid aug may be still way too hot. I want to carefully plan every detail so i dont screw this up.


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## g-man

@Jay20nj mid August is the ideal to give the kbg time to establish.


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## liamjones

Whats the trigger to first mow? height of lawn? if so, how high does the new grass need to be before the first cut at 1.5/2inch?


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## g-man

Once it reaches the 1.5-2.0in, mow it and keep it at 1.5-2in for the first weeks.

I've started at 1in and keep it there with a heavy greensmower (~300lb).


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## crussell

ArtOfWar626 said:


> Also, have you used Ethofumesate during a fall renovation? It's a pre-emergent for Poa Annua. I'd recommend adding that in during seeding if you could add it into your renovation.


I've done a little research on this when I was doing an overseed last year. Depending on the turf type, this may be challenging given the safety intervals they provide for overseeding and application after emergence. This is from the PoaConstrictor label, which is an Ethofumesate herbicide.

Looks like it may be viable for a PRG or TTTF renovation, but less so for KBG.


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## davegravy

My jug of Roundup concentrate says 2.5 fl oz / 1 Gallon water to cover 300sqft.

Do I really need that much carrier water for blanket sprays on my reno? My normal backpack sprayer calibration is 4 Gallons to cover my 5.1ksqft lawn which works out to 0.24 Gallon for 300sqft, a quarter of what the label says. I feel like at the label rate liquid will be dripping off the leafs into the soil.


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## g-man

Product labels are normally right. Contact the manufacturer if you think there is an error.


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## davegravy

g-man said:


> Product labels are normally right. Contact the manufacturer if you think there is an error.


Just that I'd have to walk REALLY slowly to get that rate. Or I guess I could split the concentrate into 4 apps and get more even coverage...


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## davegravy

If doing any core aeration and dethatching, is T minus 5 or 4 weeks the time to do that?

In terms of applying seed, should I plan to rent a proper slit seeder or can I broadcast spread seed and then run my sun joe scarifier attachment over it to push the seed in?


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## MarshalOfFire

I would run the Sun Joe first, then broadcast spread, then run a roller over it to ensure seed to soil contact. You can rent lawn rollers for like 10-15 bucks a day around me.


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## davegravy

I measured the most "slope-y" part of my yard at 9 degrees. My soil is sandy and I've never had drainage issues. Is this enough of a slope to warrant any special measures to prevent seed from washing downhill?


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## SNOWBOB11

davegravy said:


> I measured the most "slope-y" part of my yard at 9 degrees. My soil is sandy and I've never had drainage issues. Is this enough of a slope to warrant any special measures to prevent seed from washing downhill?


I've seen the pictures of your lawn and I don't think it needs any germination blankets if that's what you were thinking.


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## davegravy

SNOWBOB11 said:


> davegravy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I measured the most "slope-y" part of my yard at 9 degrees. My soil is sandy and I've never had drainage issues. Is this enough of a slope to warrant any special measures to prevent seed from washing downhill?
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen the pictures of your lawn and I don't think it needs any germination blankets if that's what you were thinking.
Click to expand...

Blankets I was wondering about yeah. The angle I shoot pics from doesn't really show the slope well so I thought I'd measure it just to be safe. But yeah my gut feeling is I should be fine.

Here's a pic that shows the slope


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## davegravy

> T minus 6 weeks (the point of no return) - Do any drastic amendment of soils know, per your soil test.


Is the idea here that I can apply higher than 1 lb K/M (the recommended max monthly rate for potassium) to get my annual correction in? For me my outstanding corrective apps will be 2.5lbs K/M and 4lbs S/M.

Since I'm glyphosating everything I guess I shouldn't be worried about turf damage due to high K levels. The K will work down into the soil by the time I seed 6 weeks later without causing germination issues?


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## MassHole

I applied prop 14.3 onto my 2 weeks old Midnight seedlings two weeks ago. I'm due for another fungicide app soon. Should I use azoxy or another dose of prop?


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## shadowlawnjutsu

@g-man When watering at 8,11,2,5 how much water do you put in. Is that a very light water as far as the seeds get wet at 1/8-1/4 inch or I need a little bit more than that?


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## g-man

Less. The idea is to keep the top layer moist. Sunny windy days will need more than cloudy ones.


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## davegravy

@g-man or others, I'm going away this Saturday for a week and dropping glyphosate the following Saturday (Jul 4). My lawn is overdue for aneuw reapplication (approaching rebound).

What's more stressful and likely to impact glyphosate efficacy - applying aneuw now or mowing down rebounding grass that's uncut for 1 week? I won't be able to glyphosate early. My HOC is about 2" right now. I'm thinking I should re-apply aneuw.


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## shadowlawnjutsu

I have a 2 gallon sprayer and about to spray glyphosate. I bought knockout with 41% AI. The 2 gallon sprayer was calibrated and sprays 1 gallon/1000. Glyphosate
Instructions tells that it needs 2.5 ounce of gly to a gallon of water and can be used to up to 300sqft. Does that mean I have to finish 2 gallon in a 600sqft and then refil? With my calibration, I will have to go back and fort on my 600sqft area just to finish 2 gallons?


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## g-man

Yes, most labels read 2.5oz/1gallon for 300sqft. That's around 8oZ/3gallons to 1000sqft. I typically do the 7oz/gallon into 1000sqft. I think the intent of 3 gallons is to ensure enough water (carrier) to cover the leaves with product.

Doing 3g/ksqft can be really hard for most of us. Since you are planning to do more glyphosate in the coming weeks, you can use the 1g/ksqft carrier rate to save you some work.


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## shadowlawnjutsu

g-man said:


> Yes, most labels read 2.5oz/1gallon for 300sqft. That's around 8oZ/3gallons to 1000sqft. I typically do the 7oz/gallon into 1000sqft. I think the intent of 3 gallons is to ensure enough water (carrier) to cover the leaves with product.
> 
> Doing 3g/ksqft can be really hard for most of us. Since you are planning to do more glyphosate in the coming weeks, you can use the 1g/ksqft carrier rate to save you some work.


That makes more sense. Thank you!


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## davegravy

g-man said:


> Since you are planning to do more glyphosate in the coming weeks, you can use the 1g/ksqft carrier rate to save you some work.


Aha! I had a feeling we could get away with less than the label says for carrier. Thanks @g-man


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## davegravy

@g-man I just sprayed my roundup, excited that this is actually happening. Was hoping for some guidance on fallowing, particularly after my grass is good and dead.

I understand the idea is to get weed seeds to germinate, but should I be watering the same way I normally do for turf health, ie deep watering to saturate my ~6" turf root zone? Or is it sufficient to back off a bit and aim to keep just the top inch or two moist? Is there much worry about weed seeds lower than that?


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## SNOWBOB11

@davegravy Water the same as how your going to after you seed. Light and frequent.


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## Baretta

Following the guide at seed down my Phosphorous level is currently very high sitting at 87 ppm as of early June. Is this something I shouldn't be considering even though my seed down date will be in mid August?


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## Di3soft

g-man said:


> Once it reaches the 1.5-2.0in, mow it and keep it at 1.5-2in for the first weeks.
> 
> I've started at 1in and keep it there with a heavy greensmower (~300lb).


was actually looking for an answer to this, so after seeding should I use the rotary at 1.25 for a few weeks then go to the greens mower or just go at 1" with the greens mower once it reaches 1.5"?


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## g-man

@Baretta If your P is high, you dont need to add more P at seed down. The soil already has P.

@Di3softI started mowing when it was 1in long and kept mowing at 1in. It is not for the faint of heart. I like the clean cut of the greens over the rotatory, but both options will work.


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## occamsrzr

g-man said:


> Yes, most labels read 2.5oz/1gallon for 300sqft. That's around 8oZ/3gallons to 1000sqft. I typically do the 7oz/gallon into 1000sqft. I think the intent of 3 gallons is to ensure enough water (carrier) to cover the leaves with product.
> 
> Doing 3g/ksqft can be really hard for most of us. Since you are planning to do more glyphosate in the coming weeks, you can use the 1g/ksqft carrier rate to save you some work.


Sweet! I did the 2.5oz/g for 300sqft for my first application. 4 refills of a 2 gallon sprayer on a 2000sqft spray. Followed up with the 7oz/gallon rate for my second application. Was much easier this go around.


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## Di3soft

@g-man awesome thanks, I just didnt know if the weight of the greens mower would damage the young grass.


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## g-man

The weight was not an issue for me. The turns can be an issue with any mower. Go with the rotary if you are concerned.


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## Di3soft

I dont have any hard turns that wont have established grass so i think im good there


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## duncangweller

Hi guys and gals,

I just want to make sure that I understand properly......apply round up 2 days before seed down? Does the roundup dissipate before the time seed goes down?

I'm mid reno as we speak.

Thanks,
Dunc


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## dacoyne

duncangweller said:


> Hi guys and gals,
> 
> I just want to make sure that I understand properly......apply round up 2 days before seed down? Does the roundup dissipate before the time seed goes down?
> 
> I'm mid reno as we speak.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dunc


You can round up the same day as seed down it will not affect the seed. Roundup is foliar uptake, seed has no leaves. Two days before seed is fine.


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## g-man

Two days after is also fine.


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## ken-n-nancy

g-man said:


> Two days after is also fine.


True fact.

I've even done some small experimental "1-day" renovations by doing, all in one day: scalping w/bagging, spray glyphosate, sow seed, spread peat moss, start watering. It worked. Cool thing is that by the time the glyphosated grass is looking dead, the new grass is already starting to germinate.


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## aaronchristopherbake

dacoyne said:


> duncangweller said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys and gals,
> 
> I just want to make sure that I understand properly......apply round up 2 days before seed down? Does the roundup dissipate before the time seed goes down?
> 
> I'm mid reno as we speak.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dunc
> 
> 
> 
> You can round up the same day as seed down it will not affect the seed. Roundup is foliar uptake, seed has no leaves. Two days before seed is fine.
Click to expand...

This is correct. As an anecdote, I sprayed gylphosate on on the morning of the day I seeded TTTF for a quick and dirty reno of my front yard last year. No ill effects on seedlings. On the soil, its harmless.


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## [cofan]

I was looking to do a renovation soon in zone 9b. Do I need to use seed blankets since I have a slight slope or should I be good without it? Was looking to start glycophosphate soon and seed with 4th millennium in late August. Thanks


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## duncangweller

Thanks for all the responses. I feel wiser already.

Dunc


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## Matthew_73

> T minus 2 weeks - Start looking at long range forecast. Adjust the seed down (early or later) based on heavy downpours or too hot weather. Do your tenacity calculations and get them on paper (4oz/acre rate no NIS). Get any ground cover you want to use (eg. peat moss). Straw is 1% weed, so avoid it. For hills, grow blankets work. Check Ryan Knorr youtube videos.
> T minus 1 week - Start raking and making sure the the top 1/4in of soil is not compacted.
> T minus 2 days - apply round up. Get the drink of choice.
> Seed down - Do another raking and drop the seed.


Couple of things I am having confusion

T minus 2 weeks Tenacity
T minus 1 weeks RAKE - really? Doesn't this break the barrier? 
T minus 2 days more Gylso
Seed down? How long do you have to wait before adding see? I was always told 14 days it last in the soil..

Thanks


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## Matthew_73

@g-man @Pete1313



g-man said:


> @Baretta If your P is high, you dont need to add more P at seed down. The soil already has P.
> 
> I am in this same category any help would be helpful


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## ken-n-nancy

Matthew_73 said:


> Couple of things I am having confusion
> 
> T minus 2 weeks Tenacity
> T minus 1 weeks RAKE - really? Doesn't this break the barrier?
> T minus 2 days more Gylso
> Seed down? How long do you have to wait before adding seed? I was always told 14 days it last in the soil..


How long one needs to wait after applying a weed-killer depends upon the type of weed-killer and sometimes upon the kind of grass seed.

Glyphosate and Tenacity are both safe to apply right up until (and including) the day of seed-down. (You can even get away with a couple days after!!!)

There's also a lot of different timelines people use to get to seed-down, depending upon what threats they are most trying to address.

Personally, I don't apply any Tenacity in advance of seed-down -- the Tenacity isn't going to kill anything that survives the glyphosate, and Tenacity is too expensive to apply when there isn't a specific purpose for it. One of its key purposes is to apply it on the day of seed-down in order to prevent _Poa annua_ and _Poa trivialis_ from germinating at the same time as the new grass seed and thus immediately becoming a part of the new lawn.

I would note that in g-man's first posting in this thread, the Tenacity reference at T minus 2 weeks isn't to apply the Tenacity at T minus 2 weeks, but to get the math done at that time to determine how much you are going to apply, and get it written down, so that there aren't any math mistakes on seed-down day!

My preferred steps for "seed-down" day are

sow the seed, using your chosen spreading technique (for large areas I use a broadcast spreader),
roll in the seed, 
spray Tenacity at a 4oz/acre rate (0.55tsp/ksqft),
spread peat moss on the bare soil areas, and
start "germination watering" to just wet the top surface of the soil six times a day (at 7:30am, 10am, noon, 2pm, 4pm, and 6:30pm.)

The above list matches what g-man has in the first posting of this thread.

If the soil test indicates a need for phosphorus, I'd apply that on seed-down day also, probably right after rolling in the seed.


----------



## g-man

^+1


----------



## Matthew_73

I just could not wrap my head around the terms of gylso and seeding in the same sentance hard to believe... Most likely I am planting 80/20 tttf and KBG... My first glyso app will be Aug 4th or 5th and forward...


----------



## davegravy

Just finished dethatching and then scalping my lawn. I wish I had waited until now to apply my soil corrections. I found the dethatching turned up a bunch of the green pellets of elemental sulfur I applied last week, and I suspect scalping /bagging picked a bunch of it up (and maybe also the K I put down).


----------



## Matthew_73

Well I just Glyphosated my yard... Here we gooooo....... I've read this many times Watched @GrassDaddy and Ryan Knorr many times... Only thing I am worried about is seed getting washed out...


----------



## Di3soft

When mowing for the first few times after it gets to 1", do I use the grass catcher or just return the clippings?


----------



## g-man

I return. Keep those nutrients in the soil.


----------



## Di3soft

@g-man thanks, good to know


----------



## Matthew_73

shadowlawnjutsu said:


> I have a 2 gallon sprayer and about to spray glyphosate. I bought knockout with 41% AI. The 2 gallon sprayer was calibrated and sprays 1 gallon/1000. Glyphosate
> Instructions tells that it needs 2.5 ounce of gly to a gallon of water and can be used to up to 300sqft. Does that mean I have to finish 2 gallon in a 600sqft and then refil? With my calibration, I will have to go back and fort on my 600sqft area just to finish 2 gallons?


@shadowlawnjutsu I just did my lawn yesterday and was curious about that as well.. I did 5 oz per 2 gallons and had two extra containers so all I did was just add .. did that 3 times total and was doing 2000 square feet.. I have a battery sprayers plus and was able to go back and forth each way and only used about 7.25 gallons.. I used the TeeJett 1004 misty one I am unsure correct name.. I sprayed on each tire pass from mower... we'll see in 7 days


----------



## [cofan]

Matthew_73 said:


> shadowlawnjutsu said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a 2 gallon sprayer and about to spray glyphosate. I bought knockout with 41% AI. The 2 gallon sprayer was calibrated and sprays 1 gallon/1000. Glyphosate
> Instructions tells that it needs 2.5 ounce of gly to a gallon of water and can be used to up to 300sqft. Does that mean I have to finish 2 gallon in a 600sqft and then refil? With my calibration, I will have to go back and fort on my 600sqft area just to finish 2 gallons?
> 
> 
> 
> @shadowlawnjutsu I just did my lawn yesterday and was curious about that as well.. I did 5 oz per 2 gallons and had two extra containers so all I did was just add .. did that 3 times total and was doing 2000 square feet.. I have a battery sprayers plus and was able to go back and forth each way and only used about 7.25 gallons.. I used the TeeJett 1004 misty one I am unsure correct name.. I sprayed on each tire pass from mower... we'll see in 7 days
Click to expand...

It's been 6 days since I put down glyphosate but I did 2.5oz per gallon per ~300 sq ft. Used the 4 gallons over ~1300 sq ft.

Most of it has died. Hoping the rest of it dies over the next few days and then I'll probably do another application this weekend or so if there are big patches. Otherwise i'll wait it out to see if it dies off if it's just smaller patches.


----------



## [cofan]

Is it better to remove all the dead grass after glyphosate and just have bare dirt or to scalp it and leave some of the dead grass behind?


----------



## JPJ

@g-man I'm in Carmel, IN - near you. I have 10 lbs of SSS KBG mix for my 1500 sqft back yard reno. Due to vacation, I cannot seed earlier than 9/14. Is this too late for KBG in your opinion?


----------



## g-man

@JPJ 14Sep is fairly late for our area. Doable? Yes, but risky. One strong storm or and early winter and you will have mud until April. Can you do seed in two weeks?


----------



## Matthew_73

Ok, now I hear from that Ryan dude that owns field source. He was on Matt Show the other night and now on Ryan Knorr today and I heard him say that he says last app one week before seeding... I have no problem with each, but just lot of different visions


----------



## JPJ

@g-man I was going to start killing off my lawn this weekend. I have time to do the renovation earlier, but the problem is I won't be home to water due to said vacation (01-Sep to 12-Sep)



g-man said:


> @JPJ 14Sep is fairly late for our area. Doable? Yes, but risky. One strong storm or and early winter and you will have mud until April. Can you do seed in two weeks?


----------



## shadowlawnjutsu

When should I start counting the days after germination? I've seen some lawn journal that says they got germination from mazama blue grass in 7 days. What if I see some germination in some area and not on others? Or is that even possible? How can I tell that it's the germination day?

I'm going to have a control seeds where I'll plant it in a small container. When I see germination in that,would that be a good sign that I can start counting DAG?


----------



## davegravy

shadowlawnjutsu said:


> When should I start counting the days after germination? I've seen some lawn journal that says they got germination from mazama blue grass in 7 days. What if I see some germination in some area and not on others? Or is that even possible? How can I tell that it's the germination day?
> 
> I'm going to have a control seeds where I'll plant it in a small container. When I see germination in that,would that be a good sign that I can start counting DAG?


I'd like to add to this question... I'm planting a 75% kbg 25% PRG mix so I expect the latter to germinate much earlier. Is it best to use the kbg germination date as the reference for DAG?


----------



## g-man

No hard rules around any of this. I use a general it looks that most areas have some germination.


----------



## shadowlawnjutsu

davegravy said:


> I'd like to add to this question... I'm planting a 75% kbg 25% PRG mix so I expect the latter to germinate much earlier. Is it best to use the kbg germination date as the reference for DAG?


I'll probably use the KBG since it has the more percentage and it germinates later than PRG. But if I have the more PRGs than KBG I'll probably go in between. Maybe wait for a few days after the prg germination.


----------



## Matthew_73

pro/cons of applying tenacity at seed throwdown


----------



## Di3soft

So I have t-nex that I just split with another person. My question is, is it useful to use pgr on new seedlings?


----------



## Baretta

Just realized I forgot to put down Tenacity on section of renovation. TTTF seed down was last Wednesday. Any harm in putting it down now before germination starts?


----------



## Carlson

How many days do you think I should be watering the soil I brought in before doing the final gly-ing?

Had my back yard partially top-dressed a few weeks back and already fallowed out the weeds on the front & back edges of the front yard. Had the center part graded better with more good soil on Fri, Aug 14th. I've had it on the same watering schedule as my back yard overseed - not seeing any new weeds yet.

I have an extra-long weekend planned this weekend (Thur-Tue off... yes I took a vacation to finish my reno)... I could gly as late as Tuesday morning before letting it dry and seeding that afternoon, but I'm hoping I can spray and seed a little earlier.

First post said to do soil at t-minus 4 and final gly at t-minus 3... Is a week sufficient? Or does Poa Triv take 3wks to germinate like KBG does?


----------



## g-man

I water the fallow just like I water the seeds (multiple thru the day).

You can do gly the day you seed or even the day after the seed down.

Try not to worry too much. It will all be ok.


----------



## Carlson

@g-man thanks - been doing the same as far as times-per-day goes. I'm just trying to make sure I'm doing it enough days in a row to pop the offending seeds.

Sounds like a week is probably sufficient - I'll base my decision on which vacation day will have the best weather to be in the yard all day.


----------



## Matthew_73

When to apply Propi? I have no access to the 14% but there is some 2.3% at Lowes... When and what to look for in a new reno? I have never really had any fungus issues.. but there is always something that can happen


----------



## Carlson

@Matthew_73 I applied it day-of-seeding for my back yard overseed.

I'm going to hold off doing any to the front yard reno next weekend -- unless I see any mycelium I'm not going to bother


----------



## Matthew_73

I don't have access to the 14% stuff Only the stuff at the Big ox stores and that is 2.3% I have never really had any fungus issues with the small exception of Mushrooms...

I just don't know if I need to get any.... just in case


----------



## Carlson

If you haven't had issues I'd wait to spray unless you see something.

I had a little bit of brown patch over the summer with a few spots left so I wanted to knock it back before my new seedlings start.


----------



## elgrow

Not quite a full renovation on my part, but I am looking to try and level the lawn with the overseed and reno. I have some areas with pretty hard clay and I am trying to decide should I aerate and then topdress/level or just forgo that with a heavy AIR-8 app and then topdress? Or just straight up topdress?

Also I have a couple options for soil mixes and not sure what would be best. Priced below most expensive to lowest.

- Turf Blend with topsoil, organic growing medium, sand & premium compost
- Master Blend Mix - 70% Top Soil/30% Compost
- Screened top soil

Here is a link for the mixes https://yardworksva.com/product-category/soil/ I am leaning between the Turf Blend or just Screened top soil


----------



## Thick n Dense

@g-man

2 important notes that might be value add to the Original post.

1. Don't use Glyphosate mixed with Diquat... Diquat has a 7 to 14 day waiting period for reseeding. Also we want a root kill not a burn down with roots still alive.

2. Have a plan for the grass clippings when scalping. I never bag... ever. Today I scalped down to the final height for seeding and I had so many clippings LOL... I threw them under a bush in the backyard but holy crap it was like 4-5 bags off my time master.

I think #1 is more important than #2 as some folks like to seed the day of or a couple days after the kill and it would be terrible to have $400 worth of side flushed down the toilet


----------



## g-man

The first point was already there:



> We want a slow kill to the roots not a leaf burn. That means you want to use only glyphosate.


----------



## davegravy

Thick n Dense said:


> @g-man
> 
> 2. Have a plan for the grass clippings when scalping. I never bag... ever. Today I scalped down to the final height for seeding and I had so many clippings LOL... I threw them under a bush in the backyard but holy crap it was like 4-5 bags off my time master.


Does your municipality not collect grass clippings and other yard waste? Mine doesn't allow grass clippings (they want to encourage mulch mowing, which I normally do) but they didn't reject mine when I put them out after my reno.


----------



## Thick n Dense

g-man said:


> The first point was already there:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We want a slow kill to the roots not a leaf burn. That means you want to use only glyphosate.
Click to expand...

Touche I guess that I can't read :lol: a mention to diquat though might save someone some heartache.

At least if they're search for diquat, it'll show up here now..


----------



## Thick n Dense

davegravy said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> @g-man
> 
> 2. Have a plan for the grass clippings when scalping. I never bag... ever. Today I scalped down to the final height for seeding and I had so many clippings LOL... I threw them under a bush in the backyard but holy crap it was like 4-5 bags off my time master.
> 
> 
> 
> Does your municipality not collect grass clippings and other yard waste? Mine doesn't allow grass clippings (they want to encourage mulch mowing, which I normally do) but they didn't reject mine when I put them out after my reno.
Click to expand...

They do but my yard waste bin is full and I don't have any paper bags as I always mulch mow... I had an oh shit moment when the clippings were piling up.

It's really not a big deal but think about it, you're collecting 2-3 times the amount of clippings than a normal mow and maybe you run out of paper bags? In an effort of making the best reno guide a line about this wouldn't hurt.


----------



## Matthew_73

Speaking of. I'd it necessary that you clear the dead grass. I notice d St one grass coming through in areas. In other. Not. Yet. But only a week of germination


----------



## gm560

I have seen a lot of people freaking out that they need to get seed down ASAP, especially near me in the North East. I know earlier is usually better but looking at the NWS Long Range Forecast, I am hoping this puts some people's mind at ease.



I am helping an neighbor with a 90% TTTF /10% KBG reno and have been planning on Labor Day Weekend all along. With this forecast I don't feel the need to deviate from that plan. Am I wrong here?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

gm560 said:


> I have seen a lot of people freaking out that they need to get seed down ASAP, especially near me in the North East. I know earlier is usually better but looking at the NWS Long Range Forecast, I am hoping this puts some people's mind at ease.
> 
> 
> 
> I am helping an neighbor with a 90% TTTF /10% KBG reno and have been planning on Labor Day Weekend all along. With this forecast I don't feel the need to deviate from that plan. Am I wrong here?


Warm weather is helpful, but ultimately, what really matters for grass growth in the fall is amount of sunlight on the grass. Even if it's warmer than usual, it's a fact that during September in New Hampshire, each day is about 2.5 minutes shorter than the prior one. September 1 has 13:03 hours of daylight, which drops to 11:47 hours by September 30. That's only as much daylight as we were getting back in March.

On top of that, the sun is lower and lower in the sky each day, resulting in less usable energy from the sunlight is received. October is even worse, dropping from 11:44 hours of daylight on Oct to only 10:27 hours by the end of the month. That's roughly the same as February.

There's no need to panic, but every day matters for seed-down in the fall.


----------



## Matthew_73

Just outta curiosity. What time frame of the day would grass grow the most?


----------



## gm560

Very interesting @ken-n-nancy, thanks for posting. I dug into that a little more and it is good insight. Looks to be extremely important up in your area. I found this cool chart from WaPo. You are exactly right, in Sept you are roughly in the same position as in March in terms of sunshine.


----------



## Harts

ken-n-nancy said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen a lot of people freaking out that they need to get seed down ASAP, especially near me in the North East. I know earlier is usually better but looking at the NWS Long Range Forecast, I am hoping this puts some people's mind at ease.
> 
> 
> 
> I am helping an neighbor with a 90% TTTF /10% KBG reno and have been planning on Labor Day Weekend all along. With this forecast I don't feel the need to deviate from that plan. Am I wrong here?
> 
> 
> 
> Warm weather is helpful, but ultimately, what really matters for grass growth in the fall is amount of sunlight on the grass. Even if it's warmer than usual, it's a fact that during September in New Hampshire, each day is about 2.5 minutes shorter than the prior one. September 1 has 13:03 hours of daylight, which drops to 11:47 hours by September 30. That's only as much daylight as we were getting back in March.
> 
> On top of that, the sun is lower and lower in the sky each day, resulting in less usable energy from the sunlight is received. October is even worse, dropping from 11:44 hours of daylight on Oct to only 10:27 hours by the end of the month. That's roughly the same as February.
> 
> There's no need to panic, but every day matters for seed-down in the fall.
Click to expand...

This is an excellent explanation. Earlier seed down is better than later for all the reasons above. It's also important to note that weather plays a vital role in new grass development. Seeding in August allows enough time to throw down more seed in areas that don't germinate well or in the event of a heavy storm (washout).

None of this is to say that September is a bad time for the Northeast, it just isn't ideal. Spring seeding can be successful too, but that timing isn't ideal. Especially when doing a complete reno - nuking your lawn, leveling etc., I would want to give myself the best chance possible for success.

With that said, sometimes life gets in the way and September is the only time to seed. It is what it is!


----------



## kay7711226

One Input I will add from my recent experience on my last 2 Reno seeding. I have noticed based on the Summer conditions as @g-man noted(wet or dry) this will have a big impact if you are seeding in an area with trees in the surrounding areas. Leaves tend to drop sooner(Mid Aug-early Sep) when its a very dry Summer. Leaves can be a pain try to remove over a seeded area affecting your planning and extra efforts trying to get good seed germination. Just another reason to always go earlier than later for seeding(together with the Sunlight info above)


----------



## Matthew_73

14 DAG lotta nutsedge and crab grass.. will this be an issue after dies off or what can i do and not hurt the grass.


----------



## Di3soft

g-man said:


> The weight was not an issue for me. The turns can be an issue with any mower. Go with the rotary if you are concerned.


Just another quick question for you. So I mowed for the first time yesterday on the renovation, my groved roller keeps getting caked with dirt even after 24 hours of no watering. Is that normal? Now that I'm going to be mowing again pretty frequently and am still watering 3 times per day, do I just mow when it's damp and deal with the front roller collecting dirt?


----------



## damanpal

I am doing a full lawn reno as well with Award KBG. I seeded on August 9th. Couple of questions I have from the reno guide steps:

1. 21 days after germination- look for no germination zones and apply more seeds if needed
This, for me, is somewhere in the next week. I am still seeing more and more bare areas filling up everyday. If I put more seed down, say this weekend, is there enough time for this new seed to establish itself? Considering I am in the Toronto area.

2. 21-28 DAG - Apply tenacity (4oz/acre rate no nis) and it depends on the weed pressure.
On another thread I read that the second application is for the post-emerg and to use a NIS. I do have some weeds which survived the initial tenacity application. Is this second app another pre-emerg or post or both?


----------



## davegravy

damanpal said:


> I am doing a full lawn reno as well with Award KBG. I seeded on August 9th. Couple of questions I have from the reno guide steps:
> 
> 1. 21 days after germination- look for no germination zones and apply more seeds if needed
> This, for me, is somewhere in the next week. I am still seeing more and more bare areas filling up everyday. If I put more seed down, say this weekend, is there enough time for this new seed to establish itself? Considering I am in the Toronto area.
> 
> 2. 21-28 DAG - Apply tenacity (4oz/acre rate no nis) and it depends on the weed pressure.
> On another thread I read that the second application is for the post-emerg and to use a NIS. I do have some weeds which survived the initial tenacity application. Is this second app another pre-emerg or post or both?


Thanks for asking this, I'm also wondering about question #2. I have a bunch of broadleaf weeds, and they're getting big enough that they're starting to shade my baby KBG. Been hand pulling when they get offensively large but I'm falling behind.


----------



## shadowlawnjutsu

What website do you use to check for the first frost?

Checked Almanac.com and it's saying that first frost in my zipcode is Oct 6. I feel like that's too early. If it's true, I'll probably adjust my reseeding date earlier.


----------



## gm560

shadowlawnjutsu said:


> What website do you use to check for the first frost?
> 
> Checked Almanac.com and it's saying that first frost in my zipcode is Oct 6. I feel like that's too early. If it's true, I'll probably adjust my reseeding date earlier.


https://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/


----------



## Harts

damanpal said:


> I am doing a full lawn reno as well with Award KBG. I seeded on August 9th. Couple of questions I have from the reno guide steps:
> 
> 1. 21 days after germination- look for no germination zones and apply more seeds if needed
> This, for me, is somewhere in the next week. I am still seeing more and more bare areas filling up everyday. If I put more seed down, say this weekend, is there enough time for this new seed to establish itself? Considering I am in the Toronto area.
> 
> 2. 21-28 DAG - Apply tenacity (4oz/acre rate no nis) and it depends on the weed pressure.
> On another thread I read that the second application is for the post-emerg and to use a NIS. I do have some weeds which survived the initial tenacity application. Is this second app another pre-emerg or post or both?


You are probably good to seed bare areas now. Is there enough time for establishment? Maybe. Maybe not. But you still need to seed those bare areas. Sooner the better.

2nd app of Tenacity is a post-emergence application. I would use a surfactant.


----------



## synergy0852

I'm doing my second tenacity app as pre-emergent to fill the gap while I wait to do prodiamine @ 60DAG. I can kill broadleaf weeds later, don't need to use tenacity for that. I'm more worried about preventing unwanted POA and other grassy weeds.


----------



## davegravy

synergy0852 said:


> I'm doing my second tenacity app as pre-emergent to fill the gap while I wait to do prodiamine @ 60DAG. I can kill broadleaf weeds later, don't need to use tenacity for that. I'm more worried about preventing unwanted POA and other grassy weeds.


If you use NIS and water it in after a few hours of foliar absorption do you get post and pre control?


----------



## synergy0852

Not sure, I think it's one or the other but I'm more concerned with pre. The grass will be strong enough to handle other herbicides soon enough as post.


----------



## halby

I am in SE michigan. I pivoted from my plan to use TTTF/KBG to full PRG because I ran out of time in august to complete my reno. Personally as slow as I've seen KBG comes up, yes even GCI's kbg, I have zero confidence that the grass would have time to establish in time before the mid OCtober, which is when our first frost usually is. Even than KBG just take SOO long to really get hardy. I am a sucker for PRG, comes up in a week, and is established in month, about the same time you start seeing KBG at the 1 inch stage. I just don't have patience or enough will power to deal with KBG, i learned the hard way.


----------



## davegravy

halby said:


> I am in SE michigan. I pivoted from my plan to use TTTF/KBG to full PRG because I ran out of time in august to complete my reno. Personally as slow as I've seen KBG comes up, yes even GCI's kbg, I have zero confidence that the grass would have time to establish in time before the mid OCtober, which is when our first frost usually is. Even than KBG just take SOO long to really get hardy. I am a sucker for PRG, comes up in a week, and is established in month, about the same time you start seeing KBG at the 1 inch stage. I just don't have patience or enough will power to deal with KBG, i learned the hard way.


In my first reno and I can see how KBG alone would be a stressful experience, but I'm feeling good about my 25% PRG 75% KBG mix. Enough PRG to give me the appearance of somewhat established lawn after 1 month, so it doesn't look like garbage for so long, plus the benefits of KBG to come in the future.


----------



## damanpal

It will be 4 weeks on Sunday since I seeded with Tenacity. Some do have a slight color change but they don't seem to be dying. Please suggest what is this and what I can do about it:











Thanks!!


----------



## Matthew_73

The last looks like field horsetail


----------



## g-man

4 weeks post germination you can do more tenacity. Meanwhile, hand pull those weeds.


----------



## damanpal

Thanks.. so will tenacity take care of these? I started pulling out a few but they seems to be increasing a lot in the past week or so and i don't want to damage the new grass by too much walking over it.


----------



## g-man

Tenacity should help until you can use other herbicides. You can walk on that grass. Just be careful of your turns.


----------



## damanpal

Thanks @g-man


----------



## elgrow

I have had a pretty bad chinch bug infestation this year, and think I have killed a lot of them off but still see several when I walk through the lawn. I applied Bifen the week before last so I am not sure if there is anything else to do.

Do I need to worry about them affecting my overseed/reno? Or should I just proceed and hope they slowly start dieing off from the bifen.


----------



## PurelyRavage

Hi there! I renovated my front yard 2 weeks ago and laid all new seed the ss5000 sunny mix. I got germination on day 5 but it contains ***. If I spray tenacity on day 21 counting from the day I got sprouting, Am I at risk of killing my ***? I did not use tenacity while seeding. Thanks.


----------



## synergy0852

@PurelyRavage label says 30 days after germination


----------



## PurelyRavage

synergy0852 said:


> @PurelyRavage label says 30 days after germination


Right, so why is it recommended to spray it at 21-28DAG?


----------



## synergy0852

Can you link to where you're reading this recommendation by chance? I've personally never seen this 21-28DAG, I could see maybe 28 but not 21...


----------



## davegravy

synergy0852 said:


> Can you link to where you're reading this recommendation by chance? I've personally never seen this 21-28DAG, I could see maybe 28 but not 21...


G-man's first post in this thread


----------



## synergy0852

Thanks @davegravy I guess I never noticed that and I've read it multiple times. If g-man says to do that I'm sure he's had experience doing just that and if you read his reno threads you know his KBG didn't die @PurelyRavage. I learn something new everyday!


----------



## g-man

I just fixed that to follow the label.


----------



## Creppin

After 21 days Seed down for KBG and TTTF I think everything I'm really bare has germinated. We have a couple 88-90 sunny days ahead. What's the watering schedule for days like this? Morning and one early afternoon? The grass in young and don't want them to burnout.


----------



## g-man

Try to do am and noon. Avoid the late one if possible. The higher temps + moisture can lead to PB.


----------



## Creppin

g-man said:


> Try to do am and noon. Avoid the late one if possible. The higher temps + moisture can lead to PB.


Thanks! That's what I'll do. Wish the weather would cooperate more, but can't control it.

We got some rain last night finally, but of course was late evening/night.


----------



## Di3soft

so now that cooler weather is consistently here with rain here and there, at what point should I take down my sprinkler system? I an at 34 days since seed down and 25 DAG. i know not to do it too soon but just an idea would be good.


----------



## davegravy

Di3soft said:


> so now that cooler weather is consistently here with rain here and there, at what point should I take down my sprinkler system? I an at 34 days since seed down and 25 DAG. i know not to do it too soon but just an idea would be good.


Take down? Do you mean blow out and put away for the season? Don't need to do that until getting near freezing temps.

If you mean turn off, it depends. I haven't run my sprinklers in 2 days - it's been cool and cloudy and my soil is still wet. I'll probably get some scattered sun later this week and I'm expecting to have to run it a few times here and there - but I'm watching the soil closely and changing my watering schedule with the weather.


----------



## Di3soft

@davegravy sorry I have an above ground irrigation system, which I will bury next spring. so yea blow out and put away for the season, only reason I ask is because every time I have to mow which is roughly every 3 days, I have to take apart and move the system and then put it back. Just wondering if the cool weather and occasional rain will be enough at some point soon. Ill keep the system up as long as needed was just curious.


----------



## davegravy

Di3soft said:


> @davegravy sorry I have an above ground irrigation system, which I will bury next spring. so yea blow out and put away for the season, only reason I ask is because every time I have to mow which is roughly every 3 days, I have to take apart and move the system and then put it back. Just wondering if the cool weather and occasional rain will be enough at some point soon. Ill keep the system up as long as needed was just curious.


Understandable, but you never know there could be another heat wave and it would be risky to pack it up prematurely. I have above ground too and I manage to not need to move it with each mow. I'm using a push mower at 1.5" HOC which JUST clears the piping, and then I use a string trimmer around the heads. Works fine, any chance you could do something similar?


----------



## Di3soft

@davegravy I could do that, but that would mean I would have to stop using the Greensmaster and was told to start using it right away at 1"


----------



## davegravy

Di3soft said:


> @davegravy I could do that, but that would mean I would have to stop using the Greensmaster and was told to start using it right away at 1"


That's true. I wish I had that problem (still looking for a Greensmaster!)


----------



## ricwilli

Looks like people with mature lawns have started the Fall Nitrogen Blitz. What can us Reno people do? I read @g-man post about applying .2lbs of nitrogen. Can we apply .2lbs of nitrogen every two weeks?


----------



## Matthew_73

On my 28 DAG grass. I've been applying .2lbs for the last 3 weeks. GreenPunch first. Ams second. CarbonX yesterday


----------



## kay7711226

ricwilli said:


> Looks like people with mature lawns have started the Fall Nitrogen Blitz. What can us Reno people do? I read @g-man post about applying .2lbs of nitrogen. Can we apply .2lbs of nitrogen every two weeks?


His Reno Guide has it all https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=16808 I'm currently using the FNB for my Front lawn, Reno Guide for the Side lawn and Overseeding guide for the Back law, none have failed me so far and having great results. Any hiccups along the way, the other guides and threads will help. The importance of keeping a journal!!


----------



## shadowlawnjutsu

Update: 28 DAS/21 DAG

Today, I sprayed some liquid humic acid. Still have a lot of thin areas. But I can see few germinations in it. It's probably from the seeds I threw last week.






Here's a close up:


Put some more seeds on the wet shady area. This is my last seed down for this reno. Still have some seeds left but will use that next spring if I need to. 


The grass is growing more tillers now and starting to turn dark green.


----------



## Avid123

Thanks for this great resource @g-man . Just wondering what counts as my date of germination (to determine fert and mowing) if im using a cool season mix with seed varieties with different germination dates ? (E.g. PRG germinated at the 5 day mark, Fescue a few days later and small bits of KBG are just starting to show I think around the 16 day mark)


----------



## dsc123

g-man said:


> Once it reaches the 1.5-2.0in, mow it and keep it at 1.5-2in for the first weeks.
> 
> I've started at 1in and keep it there with a heavy greensmower (~300lb).


Does this apply for TTTF?

Also, a related question. I have an Automower. It cuts in random paths so its not like I can just send it out and an hour later the lawn is all cut. So I wonder if, when my grass gets to say 2", I should just turn it on to its normal schedule (about 8hrs of actual cutting time every day) set at 2", and let it go. In a way, its contrary to the typical advice of "get on and get off quick." It also turns much more frequently than a standard mower. On the other hand, it only weights 21 lbs.

Of course, I have a normal mower and its no problem to follow the standard methods until this is established. I just tend to think the 21 lb automower, with constant mulching of fractional amounts of grass might be better. Any thoughts?


----------



## g-man

@Avid123 I'm not sure. I would pick the one I want to survive the most.

@dsc123 2in for TTTF. I would not use the automower. I think the drive wheels can be too aggressive and too many turns for a young lawn. But someone has to try it first and tell us if it failed or worked.


----------



## dsc123

g-man said:


> @Avid123 I'm not sure. I would pick the one I want to survive the most.
> 
> @dsc123 2in for TTTF. I would not use the automower. I think the drive wheels can be too aggressive and too many turns for a young lawn. But someone has to try it first and tell us if it failed or worked.


Thanks. Since I'm home these days, maybe I'll give the automower a try and keep a close eye on it. I do think that especially in spots with soft and wet soil, the wheels may spin and dig in a bit. I'll be sure to report back the results if I do that.


----------



## Lust4Lawn

For the 14 DAG spoonfeeding, how long should the sprayed AMS be on the grass prior to irrigation?


----------



## ricwilli

Lust4Lawn said:


> For the 14 DAG spoonfeeding, how long should the AMS be on the grass prior to irrigation?


Granulars should be watered in.


----------



## Lust4Lawn

ricwilli said:


> Lust4Lawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the 14 DAG spoonfeeding, how long should the AMS be on the grass prior to irrigation?
> 
> 
> 
> Granulars should be watered in.
Click to expand...

I plan on diluting in water and spraying. Concentration of ~1lb per gallon per 1000 sq ft.


----------



## g-man

@Lust4Lawn either use granular or immediately water it in. I don't think the risk of leaf burn on a young grass is worth the benefit.


----------



## davegravy

Just to tie in the discussion with @g-man from another thread, weekly spoon feeding apps may be more appropriate than bi weekly depending on conditions.

What's important is maintaining a reasonable rate of top growth. 1.5" of clippings/week is ideal, but you need to balance this against factors like having a mix of different cultivars growing at different rates, disease pressure, etc


----------



## Matthew_73

davegravy said:


> And rain. lol


----------



## Baretta

I'm completing a second part of a lawn reno, the other was done in the spring. I applied starter fert (23-23-3) at 0.75 lb/m in late April to entire lawn and 0.15 lb/m early June (spring reno only). Had soil test done late spring and my Phosphorous was very high and haven't applied since. Wondering how long does it remain in the 4 to 6" soil layer. Is it ok to apply to fall reno or should I ride it out for the remainder of the season? Fall reno has received urea and SOP. Thanks.


----------



## g-man

Phosphorous is bound to the soil and remains.


----------



## elgrow

g-man said:


> Phosphorous is bound to the soil and remains.


If the P is bound to the soil is it inaccessible to the plant, or is it able to be used by the roots of the grass? Curious as I have very high P and have not been adding any with my fertilization or soil amendments.


----------



## Matthew_73

I am hi in P n K. I was told only to use 21-0-0 or 46-0-0.


----------



## g-man

@elgrow the roots can tap into it.


----------



## Matthew_73

g-man said:


> @elgrow the roots can tap into it.


Matt grass factor just explained this in his snow. 3rd question. And has answered this with me as well.


----------



## Airbender

Will something like BRANDT Converge Liquid Fertilizer 18-3-6 work for weekly spoon feeding at 14 DAG?

https://www.siteone.com/pdf/sdsPDF?skuId=558875&resourceId=26083


----------



## wino_tim

Probably not. You want fast release nitrogen. That product is 50% slow release.


----------



## Airbender

Thanks wino…tim. We will stick to urea.


----------



## elgrow

Just want to double-check my math before doing first spray urea applications.

.25 lbs urea = 4oz urea correct?

Just want to make sure I'm not screwing something up when I'm weighing it out on the kitchen scale. I've only been doing granular and premixed liquid applications prior to this.


----------



## Harts

Math is correct. 0.25lbs urea will net you 0.12lb N.


----------



## elgrow

Thanks for the double check Harts, I almost missed it up. I need 8 oz per 1000 then to get that .25lbs N.

Been a long week!


----------



## Prospect

Complete Reno seed down April 17. Mowed May 2 for first time. Mowed multiple times at 5/8". PGR app 5/13 @ .25 fl oz t-nex. Overseeded 5/16.
Mowed again 5/29. Have sprayed triple 12 @ 1/8lb N per K. As I go forward my plan is to spray every 2 weeks. The guide says 1/4 lb of N weekly the following spring(assuming you planted in fall). Should I be spraying 1/4 lb or are you talking about granular? I've heard but don't know that granular and liquid lbs on the ground are different. Educate me please....


----------



## Prospect

Prospect said:


> Complete Reno seed down April 17. Mowed May 2 for first time. Mowed multiple times at 5/8". PGR app 5/13 @ .25 fl oz t-nex. Overseeded 5/16.
> Mowed again 5/29. Have sprayed triple 12 @ 1/8lb N per K. As I go forward my plan is to spray every 2 weeks. The guide says 1/4 lb of N weekly the following spring(assuming you planted in fall). Should I be spraying 1/4 lb or are you talking about granular? I've heard but don't know that granular and liquid lbs on the ground are different. Educate me please....


@g-man


----------



## g-man

The guide is written for granular.


----------



## TravisT

Planning a reno of the back lawn this year, and I'm putting together a schedule that will auto calculate dates based on the recommendations in this thread (which can also be adjusted manually). Here's a snapshot of it, but if there's interest, I'd be glad to share it.


----------



## uts

I would tet peat moss now if you can store it. For a reno I would get all supplies at least a month before in your garage. You never know what you might not find a week before seed down.


----------



## pseudodennis

TravisT said:


> but if there's interest, I'd be glad to share it.


I'm interested! Also doing a reno this year (along with a terraforming project on top of it)


----------



## TravisT

@pseudodennis Here you go. Let me know if you have any issues accessing the file.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ihqOQarufwZ_O6YAws4L4N6OoQTdfcC9DaMq3ySTfcY/edit?usp=sharing

The second tab ("Material & Price Estimator") is still a work in progress. It works (mostly), but it's not pretty.

Any feedback welcome!


----------



## pseudodennis

TravisT said:


> @pseudodennis Here you go. Let me know if you have any issues accessing the file.
> 
> The second tab ("Material & Price Estimator") is still a work in progress. It works (mostly), but it's not pretty.
> 
> Any feedback welcome!


This is excellent - it definitely saves me from re-calculating everything every time! (Although the problem now is that I have to see how far behind I am...)

This year, acquiring peat moss should probably be moved up to *now* since the supply issues with it. (Is there a thread on addressing any other supply issues people have run into?)

Furthermore, I'm wondering if there's an easy way to export the calculated dates into an iCal file?


----------



## Alowan

pseudodennis said:



> TravisT said:
> 
> 
> 
> @pseudodennis Here you go. Let me know if you have any issues accessing the file.
> 
> The second tab ("Material & Price Estimator") is still a work in progress. It works (mostly), but it's not pretty.
> 
> Any feedback welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> This is excellent - it definitely saves me from re-calculating everything every time! (Although the problem now is that I have to see how far behind I am...)
> 
> This year, acquiring peat moss should probably be moved up to *now* since the supply issues with it. (Is there a thread on addressing any other supply issues people have run into?)
> 
> Furthermore, I'm wondering if there's an easy way to export the calculated dates into an iCal file?
Click to expand...

Yea this is great! As a one time import or dynamic?


----------



## gm560

pseudodennis said:


> This year, acquiring peat moss should probably be moved up to *now* since the supply issues with it. (Is there a thread on addressing any other supply issues people have run into?)


Cross posting from another thread. Anyone renovating should be buying seed immediately.



Oregonseed said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Oregonseed, how is this extreme heat impacting the seed production?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great question that should be on everyones mind who is considering a reno in the next 3-9 months.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Heat really impacting our crop, we were historically dry for a few months already. Expect prices to rise as much as 50%!
Click to expand...


----------



## Marzbar

If you have a compaction problem and need to aerate then where should that fall in the Reno timing? Thanks.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Marzbar said:


> If you have a compaction problem and need to aerate then where should that fall in the Reno timing? Thanks.


You can aerate 1-2 weeks before seed down that way you get a chance to continue fallowing any weeds that may germinate from disturbing the soil. Spreading the cores across the lawn can give a good seeding surface as well.


----------



## Alowan

Quick question. How soon after a full reno can you start to reel mow With a roller? (I plan to use a hand reel untill I can use my Allett)


----------



## g-man

I've reel mowed from the first mow (3 weeks after germination) at 3/4in using the 280lb greens mower.


----------



## Camman595

At T minus 6 weeks we spray the 1st round of glyphosate. At T minus 4 weeks we bring in topsoil to fix low spots. And at T minus 3 weeks we spray the 2nd round of glyphosate.

What about any weeds that pop up after the 1st kill, but before the 2nd kill in the areas that need topsoil? I assume that I can spot spray them with the glyphosate before I add the topsoil. Is there any reason not to?

And for the 2nd and 3rd glyphosate application, is this a spot spray, or do we blanket the soil?

Thanks for putting this guide together, it is helping me a lot.


----------



## g-man

Always blanket spray the gly. I would apply fly before the top soil too.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Camman595 said:


> At T minus 6 weeks we spray the 1st round of glyphosate. At T minus 4 weeks we bring in topsoil to fix low spots. And at T minus 3 weeks we spray the 2nd round of glyphosate.
> 
> What about any weeds that pop up after the 1st kill, but before the 2nd kill in the areas that need topsoil? I assume that I can spot spray them with the glyphosate before I add the topsoil. Is there any reason not to?


That's right - there's no reason to not spot-spray glyphosate on weeds that are missed from a prior application.



Camman595 said:


> And for the 2nd and 3rd glyphosate application, is this a spot spray, or do we blanket the soil?





g-man said:


> Always blanket spray the gly. I would apply fly before the top soil too.


Just to add a bit more to g-man's advice -- one really wants the last application of glyphosate to be immediately before seed-down and to be a blanket application. The purpose of the final application is not to kill weeds that were missed from the earlier glyphosate applications -- if you are spraying effectively, *there shouldn't be any missed weeds*. The reason for the final application is to get the _new, just-germinated weeds_ that have sprouted in the time since the earlier application(s) were made - many (most?) of which will be small enough to be difficult to see.

Basically, once the old lawn has been killed and the soil is opening up to light and warmth due to the previous vegetation being dead, the weed seeds in the soil germinate and start growing new weed plants. The goal of this just-before-seed-down application of glyphosate is to kill any just-germinated weeds, which may still be very hard to see, with just a tiny bit of the plant coming up out of the soil. If those tiny weeds are not killed at the time of seed-down, then they will have a head start on your baby grass, stealing resources that were intended for your new lawn, rather than the weeds.

Spraying glyphosate (make sure the product has *only* glyphosate as an active ingredient) immediately before seeding (or even up to a couple days after) won't affect germination of your seeds.


----------



## Camman595

@ken-n-nancy Thank you for the great explination.

I will be using Compare-N-Save 41% Glyphosate Grass and Weed Killer Concentrate. The label says "Lawn grasses may be planted 7 days after application". Do I need to wait the full 7 days?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Camman595 said:


> @ken-n-nancy Thank you for the great explination.
> 
> I will be using Compare-N-Save 41% Glyphosate Grass and Weed Killer Concentrate. The label says "Lawn grasses may be planted 7 days after application". Do I need to wait the full 7 days?


That's the exact same brand I bought about 8 years ago in a 1-gallon jug and still have some left, after renovating nearly all our lawn in the course of many different partial renovations, some sections for a 2nd time... 

My experience, also confirmed by many others on this site, is that despite the label instructions, you can spray a glyphosate-only product on your grass the day of the renovation with no problems.

I haven't done it personally, but others here (who I have seen post enough to trust) have done it 1 or 2 days *after* seed down to get those last newly-germinated weeds.


----------



## Rescuefescue

no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?

-so just mow lower but not scalp,
-glyphosate
-scalp and collect clippings
-glyphosate
-dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
-aerate 
-topsoil for leveling 
-seed


----------



## jha4aamu

Sleet said:


> no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?
> 
> -so just mow lower but not scalp,
> -glyphosate
> -scalp and collect clippings
> -glyphosate
> -dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
> -aerate
> -topsoil for leveling
> -seed


If you had grass growing there previously, i would think the benefit wouldn't be worth the extra work.


----------



## gm560

Sleet said:


> no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?
> 
> -so just mow lower but not scalp,
> -glyphosate
> -scalp and collect clippings
> -glyphosate
> -dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
> -aerate
> -topsoil for leveling
> -seed


I would say definitely not worth it. That loose dirt would eventually resettle and you would end up with a lumpy lawn. I would also remove the first step of mowing before the first round of gly. More leaf blade is generally better for the kill (within reason). Secondly you will definitely want to glyphosate again after you disturb the old soil (if you do choose to do so via de-thatching/scarifying/aerating) and bring in new soil. You will be churning up weed seed and importing some new ones. Ideally you want to fallow it for a good period of time so you can get them to germinate so you can kill them before the lawn is covered in your new grass.


----------



## Rescuefescue

How soon after applying glyphosate can I put seed down?


----------



## g-man

You can apply glyphosate up to 2 days after seeds. A couple of univ did research on this. Gly becomes ineffective once it hits the ground. I did apply it after seeds without issues in my backyard Reno.


----------



## gm560

Sleet said:


> How soon after applying glyphosate can I put seed down?


I have done the day before and earlier in the day before seeding it works out great. I believe what @g-man is saying, but never had the cojones to try it.


----------



## lbb091919

Sleet said:


> no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?
> 
> -so just mow lower but not scalp,
> -glyphosate
> -scalp and collect clippings
> -glyphosate
> -dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
> -aerate
> -topsoil for leveling
> -seed


Tilling up the soil can also mess with your existing layering which, in my brief soil science research, I found can cause issues with drainage. Not to mention you're basically resetting the top however many inches which will take a long time to settle and will do so unevenly.

You're better off bringing in soil and getting it as smooth as possible. The roots will dig through it no problem.


----------



## davegravy

lbb091919 said:


> Sleet said:
> 
> 
> 
> no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?
> 
> -so just mow lower but not scalp,
> -glyphosate
> -scalp and collect clippings
> -glyphosate
> -dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
> -aerate
> -topsoil for leveling
> -seed
> 
> 
> 
> Tilling up the soil can also mess with your existing layering which, in my brief soil science research, I found can cause issues with drainage. Not to mention you're basically resetting the top however many inches which will take a long time to settle and will do so unevenly.
> 
> You're better off bringing in soil and getting it as smooth as possible. The roots will dig through it no problem.
Click to expand...

Agree. Also they say you're possibly stirring up weed seeds when tilling, although I've never quite understood that logic (what would stop them from germinating if you didn't till?)


----------



## gm560

davegravy said:


> lbb091919 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sleet said:
> 
> 
> 
> no one seems to be mentioning tilling or cultivating the yard to loosen the soil. I planned on trying to cultivate the top few inches of soil on the whole yard to make a loose soil bed for roots to dig deep faster. would this not be worth the extra work?
> 
> -so just mow lower but not scalp,
> -glyphosate
> -scalp and collect clippings
> -glyphosate
> -dethatch/rake/scarify - collect debris
> -aerate
> -topsoil for leveling
> -seed
> 
> 
> 
> Tilling up the soil can also mess with your existing layering which, in my brief soil science research, I found can cause issues with drainage. Not to mention you're basically resetting the top however many inches which will take a long time to settle and will do so unevenly.
> 
> You're better off bringing in soil and getting it as smooth as possible. The roots will dig through it no problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Agree. Also they say you're possibly stirring up weed seeds when tilling, although I've never quite understood that logic (what would stop them from germinating if you didn't till?)
Click to expand...

A lot of seeds are not going to germinate buried under 1 or 2 or 3 inches of soil. Why they don't germinate depends on the species, but its probably some combination of access to water, oxygen, light, and heat from the sun. When you churn them up to the surface, or 1/2 inch below, some of those seeds will have the right conditions to germinate and will do so rather than sitting idle down below.

Same thing with the bagged topsoil or compost. It will most likely be riddled with weed seeds. On occasion, you will see weeds growing out of a bag at the store, but most of them are going to wait until you spread it out on your lawn and give it the right conditions.


----------



## kk07

A clarification question on the prodiamine app at 60 DAG. Can someone explain the reason behind it?


----------



## g-man

It prevent weeds from establishing. The main concern one is poa annua. The further south you are, the more concern you should have with a mild winter.


----------



## kk07

g-man said:


> It prevent weeds from establishing. The main concern one is poa annua. The further south you are, the more concern you should have with a mild winter.


Thanks. Is it still recommended to do that for Southern Massachusetts? At what point you would say it's too late for preemergent for the area? Like should I still do it if soil temp are like 60-65F already at 60 DAG?


----------



## g-man

If you have snow or frozen ground at 60DAG, then dont do it.


----------



## Alowan

When raking as the last steps before final seed down what is the best take to use? I suppose if you take to deep you will risk getting some weed seeds up..?

Currently planning on a garden rake and a leaf rake to rake in the seeds but not sure if that is the best tools?


----------



## jackallis

ken-n-nancy said:


> Camman595 said:
> 
> 
> 
> At T minus 6 weeks we spray the 1st round of glyphosate. At T minus 4 weeks we bring in topsoil to fix low spots. And at T minus 3 weeks we spray the 2nd round of glyphosate.
> 
> What about any weeds that pop up after the 1st kill, but before the 2nd kill in the areas that need topsoil? I assume that I can spot spray them with the glyphosate before I add the topsoil. Is there any reason not to?
> 
> 
> 
> That's right - there's no reason to not spot-spray glyphosate on weeds that are missed from a prior application.
> 
> 
> 
> Camman595 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And for the 2nd and 3rd glyphosate application, is this a spot spray, or do we blanket the soil?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Always blanket spray the gly. I would apply fly before the top soil too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just to add a bit more to g-man's advice -- one really wants the last application of glyphosate to be immediately before seed-down and to be a blanket application. The purpose of the final application is not to kill weeds that were missed from the earlier glyphosate applications -- if you are spraying effectively, *there shouldn't be any missed weeds*. The reason for the final application is to get the _new, just-germinated weeds_ that have sprouted in the time since the earlier application(s) were made - many (most?) of which will be small enough to be difficult to see.
> 
> Basically, once the old lawn has been killed and the soil is opening up to light and warmth due to the previous vegetation being dead, the weed seeds in the soil germinate and start growing new weed plants. The goal of this just-before-seed-down application of glyphosate is to kill any just-germinated weeds, which may still be very hard to see, with just a tiny bit of the plant coming up out of the soil. If those tiny weeds are not killed at the time of seed-down, then they will have a head start on your baby grass, stealing resources that were intended for your new lawn, rather than the weeds.
> 
> Spraying glyphosate (make sure the product has *only* glyphosate as an active ingredient) immediately before seeding (or even up to a couple days after) won't affect germination of your seeds.
Click to expand...

when you say immediately before seed down, how immediate we're talking? 1 day before seed down?


----------



## g-man

You can apply gly the day off and even the day after. I just applied some the day after my seeding.


----------



## Alowan

How thick Can the cover layer be?

My peat moss clumped so I had some bare spots so I reapplied there. The areas that did not clump had a bit thicker layer a so a bit concernee that it might effect germination. Seed is around 1/4 in the Ground and then maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch peat moss (I think.. I tried to just spread a very light but covering coat)


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Alowan said:


> How thick Can the cover layer be?
> 
> My peat moss clumped so I had some bare spots so I reapplied there. The areas that did not clump had a bit thicker layer a so a bit concernee that it might effect germination. Seed is around 1/4 in the Ground and then maybe 1/4 to 1/2 inch peat moss (I think.. I tried to just spread a very light but covering coat)


1/4" should be fine. A bit more or bit less in some areas won't be a deal breaker. You want to try and spread as evenly as you can but it doesn't have to be perfect.


----------



## davegravy

Germination test day 13 (last year). That was all grown in complete darkness. Seedlings will go to pretty great lengths to find sunlight, just on the energy reserves contained in the seed. I wouldn't worry.


----------



## steffen707

g-man said:


> *Renovation guide
> *​[*] Convince the significant other or at least plan for forgiveness.


Most important step right at the top!


----------



## davegravy

steffen707 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Renovation guide
> *​[*] Convince the significant other or at least plan for forgiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> Most important step right at the top!
Click to expand...

YMMV and I'm not advocating being dishonest. I'm just stating facts!

My SO would never in a million years have given the thumbs up to my reno project if I tallied up and disclosed the full scope of it (level of effort and cost). In fact, I might have decided against it myself.

But now she's seen the result, and let's just say she's asking me when I think I might do the front yard


----------



## steffen707

davegravy said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Renovation guide
> *​[*] Convince the significant other or at least plan for forgiveness.
> 
> 
> 
> Most important step right at the top!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> YMMV and I'm not advocating being dishonest. I'm just stating facts!
> 
> My SO would never in a million years have given the thumbs up to my reno project if I tallied up and disclosed the full scope of it (level of effort and cost). In fact, I might have decided against it myself.
> 
> But now she's seen the result, and let's just say she's asking me when I think I might do the front yard
Click to expand...

Luckily my SO lets me do whatever I want with the lawn, she just wants to be informed.

I'm breaking up my 10k lawn into a 3.7k renovation this year, then I think a 3k reno with re-grading and burying 2 downspouts and possible deck extension next year, with a final 3.3k reno the following fall.

Depending on how much time I have and the success of the 2021 reno, i may tackle the rest of the lawn next year.


----------



## Jeff_MI84

@steffen707, if there is no significant other am I supposed to skip this step or hold off on the reno until I obtain an SO?


----------



## davegravy

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @steffen707, if there is no significant other am I supposed to skip this step or hold off on the reno until I obtain an SO?


If you do the reno you will more easily obtain an SO (and a better quality SO at that)


----------



## Jeff_MI84

@davegravy even more of an incentive.


----------



## steffen707

Jeff_MI84 said:


> @steffen707, if there is no significant other am I supposed to skip this step or hold off on the reno until I obtain an SO?


Hold off on the SO, you won't have time for one anyway. Once the grass is established, get a puppy, they attract SOs.


----------



## steffen707

Hey @g-man Is plug aerating then breaking up the plugs a bad idea before dropping seed in a renovation? Or should i wait until the grass is a year old next fall and aerate then?


----------



## Avid123

Thanks @g-man for this great resource!

If I'm doing a reno of a lawn that is about 80% weeds and barely any grass - after applying roundup and scalping it, does it make sense to dethatch or power rake to remove all the debris/dead stuff or just scalp+loosening soil should be sufficient? (I.e. would the rental cost of a power rake be worth it ?)


----------



## g-man

I'm not sure what all the machine terms are, but anything that allows the seed to get to the soil is the important stuff.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

jackallis said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camman595 said:
> 
> 
> 
> And for the 2nd and 3rd glyphosate application, is this a spot spray, or do we blanket the soil?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Always blanket spray the gly. I would apply fly before the top soil too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Just to add a bit more to g-man's advice -- one really wants the last application of glyphosate to be immediately before seed-down and to be a blanket application. The purpose of the final application is not to kill weeds that were missed from the earlier glyphosate applications -- if you are spraying effectively, *there shouldn't be any missed weeds*. The reason for the final application is to get the _new, just-germinated weeds_ that have sprouted in the time since the earlier application(s) were made - many (most?) of which will be small enough to be difficult to see.
> 
> ...
> 
> Spraying glyphosate (make sure the product has *only* glyphosate as an active ingredient) immediately before seeding (or even up to a couple days after) won't affect germination of your seeds.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> when you say immediately before seed down, how immediate we're talking? 1 day before seed down?
Click to expand...

Presuming that the only active ingredient is glyphosate, immediately means immediately, as in no delay at all.

1 second before seed down, with the glyphosate still wet on the soil, will still be fine.

For that matter, a couple hours or even a day *after* seed down won't be a problem, either!

(Sorry for the slow reply -- vacation last week got in the way of The Lawn Forum reading...)


----------



## Alowan

Just Saw that I posted this somewhere wrong. Got this thread confused With another. &#128584;

I have a question In regard to fungicides.
I only have acess to Myclobutanil 0,0075% (premixed) and difenoconazol (that I Can mix myself). And generally have had to use little to no fungicide on my lawn before killing it for reno.

I cannot seem to find any info on those and seedlings. Anyone have any idea if I Can use one of those on a new reno?


----------



## g-man

I think you are going to need to call the manufacturer to ask them if it is safe to use at seeding. I know azoxy and mefenoxam are good to use.


----------



## Eva

Hi Folks,

I am doing a lawn renovation and plan to seed with a 50/50 mix of SPF30 KBG and a fine fescue (creeping red). What should I put down when I drop the seed to fertilize and prevent weeds from growing back in? I have read that I cannot use tenacity until after the fine fescue germinates, as it will kill the fine fescue seeds. I had lots of dove weed and Bermuda which I am in the process of killing now. Our contractor is going to use a Harley rack to level the yard for us after we have killed everything.


----------



## g-man

With fine fescue, there is not much you can do from what I recall.


----------



## Ngilbe36

Eva said:


> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am doing a lawn renovation and plan to seed with a 50/50 mix of SPF30 KBG and a fine fescue (creeping red). What should I put down when I drop the seed to fertilize and prevent weeds from growing back in? I have read that I cannot use tenacity until after the fine fescue germinates, as it will kill the fine fescue seeds. I had lots of dove weed and Bermuda which I am in the process of killing now. Our contractor is going to use a Harley rack to level the yard for us after we have killed everything.


Isnt FF the opposite of what you would want in NC? Youve got SPF30 KBG which is a meant for hot weather and fine fescue which is the opposite.


----------



## Eva

Ngilbe36 said:


> Eva said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I am doing a lawn renovation and plan to seed with a 50/50 mix of SPF30 KBG and a fine fescue (creeping red). What should I put down when I drop the seed to fertilize and prevent weeds from growing back in? I have read that I cannot use tenacity until after the fine fescue germinates, as it will kill the fine fescue seeds. I had lots of dove weed and Bermuda which I am in the process of killing now. Our contractor is going to use a Harley rack to level the yard for us after we have killed everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Isnt FF the opposite of what you would want in NC? Youve got SPF30 KBG which is a meant for hot weather and fine fescue which is the opposite.
Click to expand...

Thanks for asking! The fine fescue is especially for the very shady part of the lawn, where I get 2-4 hours of sun.


----------



## g-man

I saw some images from an univ trial using FF (I think it was Wisconsin). It was interesting to see the progress they are making with new FF cultivars under sun conditions.


----------



## Alowan

> around 28 DAG or whenever the grass is above 2in in height - mow at 1.5 to 2in.


If you have a mix is it when the first grass is 2in or when last grass are? (Or mix)

I have a RPR/KBG mix and my RPR are 2 inch at DAG5 while my KBG just came up.


----------



## g-man

The last one unless you want to kill your KBG.


----------



## Eva

I'm hoping someone can provide some clarification. I am confused about the fertilizer requirements for the renovation I'm doing.

The guide says that no nitrogen should be added when the seed is dropped. 
Specifically what kind of fertilizer is required and when for a renovation?


----------



## g-man

> 14 days after germination (DAG) - Apply a fast nitrogen source (eg. urea, AMS) at a low rate (0.2lb of N/ksqft).


----------



## Alowan

g-man said:


> The last one unless you want to kill your KBG.


Curious as to why it Will kill the KBG? The KBG is not high enough to be Cut yet. So is it due to the need to walk on the lawn or something Else? Or is it the mower?


----------



## g-man

It is too young to walk on it and not damage it.


----------



## Alowan

g-man said:


> It is too young to walk on it and not damage it.


Makes sense. Had the hunch it Was that.

(I could not keep Holding back today so actually mowed (PRG at 5inch and KBG at 1inch) - but my reno is small I could almost mow it all without walking on it.. my impatience is my renos greatness enemy hope I diden't screw it up too much - this guide has been a life saver so far!)


----------



## ShadowGuy

I am getting good growth from my PRG renovation and my PRG overseed into Kikuyu. I am beginning to see some weeds that is enjoying the favorable conditions. The herbicides I have on hand say only to use on an established lawn that is not under stress. When do you consider a overseed or a new seeding "established"?


----------



## Alowan

ShadowGuy said:


> I am getting good growth from my PRG renovation and my PRG overseed into Kikuyu. I am beginning to see some weeds that is enjoying the favorable conditions. The herbicides I have on hand say only to use on an established lawn that is not under stress. When do you consider a overseed or a new seeding "established"?


If it is broad leaf weeds I would not be worried. They are fairly easy to get later. This guide is quite good for when it is safe: https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/tips/2008/04_10delays.html

It is the one linked at 60 days in the guide.

On the products I have "established" differs in definition. Maybe some of the smarter people here know a general definition.


----------



## shadowlawnjutsu

Hi just a quick question, is it safe to put down tenacity after 4 days of seed down? A friend of mine did not fallow enough and is seeing bunch of weeds in his reno. He hasn't applied tenacity after seed down too. And is it ok to use surfactant with it?


----------



## cokenner

shadowlawnjutsu said:


> Hi just a quick question, is it safe to put down tenacity after 4 days of seed down? A friend of mine did not fallow enough and is seeing bunch of weeds in his reno. He hasn't applied tenacity after seed down too. And is it ok to use surfactant with it?


I'm in the same boat as your friend. If he's using it as a post em for the new weeds, use surfactant, otherwise as a pre-em, no surfactant needed. I applied tenacity @ 5 days after seed down, due to windy condition. Seeing some weeds, but germination is wide-spread. Nutgrass is popping up white and withering away. I'm not too concerned about any other weed but Poa Annua which I plan to have prodiamine down before they'll germinate.


----------



## bkscripto

Should TTTF be mowed at 2" as well? Or is that mostly for KBG? Always heard to wait until TTTF gets to 4 inches or so before the first cut.

Thanks all!


----------



## g-man

2in for TTTF and 1.5in for KBG /PRG per the Purdue and UNL articles.


----------



## bkscripto

@g-man Thanks sir!


----------



## Pi0tr3k

Hi,
I have additionally question to your renovation guide @g-man . I would like level my lawn after chemical removing turf. But during existing my current lawn I did sanding two times - first 500kg and second 800kg sand (second time after core aeration) on 100m2. To level lawn I would like to add sifted black soil because in various place I have to add 6cm of soil. And question is that how should I do it in order to do not problem with soil profile, because this sand which is on the lawn can cause other layer. I don't want to use turf cutter to remove lawn. Do you see some solution in this case?


----------



## g-man

I dont have a good answer. Is the layer of sand more than 5mm? With earthworms, you might not have a layer anymore. Try to check how much actual sand you have. The easy answer is to use sand/compost instead of sifted soil.


----------



## Pi0tr3k

g-man said:


> I dont have a good answer. Is the layer of sand more than 5mm? With earthworms, you might not have a layer anymore. Try to check how much actual sand you have. The easy answer is to use sand/compost instead of sifted soil.


Mix sand and compost - good idea. But I plan to seed KBG Legend and PRG Grandslam GLD 50/50. That ground, I mean sand and compost will be good for this types of seed?

Second idea is to to mix existing soil to about 4-5 cm and to level use mix sand and sifted soil. What do you thing about this?


----------



## SNOWBOB11

g-man said:


> With earthworms, you might not have a layer anymore.


This is true. I did a area of sand beside my driveway for levelling. With the earth worm castings the sand has ended up being mixed into the existing soil. If this was your case @Pi0tr3k you could just use sand/compost and it would more than likely blend just fine. Bluegrass/rye will germinate fine in that mix.


----------



## Pi0tr3k

Ok but what about second idea to mix existing soil, if i have still layer of sand? After mix I can add sand/compost or sand/soil.


----------



## jackallis

g-man said:


> You can apply gly the day off and even the day after. I just applied some the day after my seeding.


for Reno, why mow low [hey, rhymed there] before round up application?
i would think tall grass will take up rooundup well - is it to avoid only leaf kill?


----------



## davegravy

jackallis said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can apply gly the day off and even the day after. I just applied some the day after my seeding.
> 
> 
> 
> for Reno, why mow low [hey, rhymed there] before round up application?
> i would think tall grass will take up rooundup well - is it to avoid only leaf kill?
Click to expand...

If your lawn is long there may be weeds/grass hiding beneath the canopy which then don't get hit with the roundup spray and so they survive. If you mow low you expose everything for a more thorough kill.


----------



## g-man

More stuff to remove and once it is dead and matted, it is harder to remove with your mower.


----------



## steffen707

g-man said:


> More stuff to remove and once it is dead and matted, it is harder to remove with your mower.





davegravy said:


> jackallis said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can apply gly the day off and even the day after. I just applied some the day after my seeding.
> 
> 
> 
> for Reno, why mow low [hey, rhymed there] before round up application?
> i would think tall grass will take up rooundup well - is it to avoid only leaf kill?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If your lawn is long there may be weeds/grass hiding beneath the canopy which then don't get hit with the roundup spray and so they survive. If you mow low you expose everything for a more thorough kill.
Click to expand...

I didn't cut mine really low before I did GLY, and I think my experiences are exactly what they just said.


----------



## jackallis

not be so pedantic about this process but i was thinking of aerating my lawn before kill start so that way any weeds that do come up get killed. does this sound like a decent plan?
my lawn does need aerating as it is fairly compacted as i've not done anythinglast 5 years since i moved and not sure what the prevoius owner did. 
i was going to aerate and then kill/repeat and top soil/fallow and then seed in 1st week of aug.


----------



## steffen707

I would think, kill lawn, scalp as much grass as you can and then plug aerate, soil/fallow, seed.

This way you're not pulling plugs of grass up and need to make sure the plugs are also killed by the GLY app.


----------



## steffen707

jackallis said:


> not be so pedantic about this process but i was thinking of aerating my lawn before kill start so that way any weeds that do come up get killed. does this sound like a decent plan?
> my lawn does need aerating as it is fairly compacted as i've not done anythinglast 5 years since i moved and not sure what the prevoius owner did.
> i was going to aerate and then kill/repeat and top soil/fallow and then seed in 1st week of aug.


And if you were planning to pick up the plugs, it would make more sense to plug right before the soil application, so that the fresh soil gets into the plug holes.

Killing my reno took 3-4 weeks, that would be quite a while for the "regular soil" to fill in the holes.


----------



## jackallis

steffen707 said:


> jackallis said:
> 
> 
> 
> not be so pedantic about this process but i was thinking of aerating my lawn before kill start so that way any weeds that do come up get killed. does this sound like a decent plan?
> my lawn does need aerating as it is fairly compacted as i've not done anythinglast 5 years since i moved and not sure what the prevoius owner did.
> i was going to aerate and then kill/repeat and top soil/fallow and then seed in 1st week of aug.
> 
> 
> 
> And if you were planning to pick up the plugs, it would make more sense to plug right before the soil application, so that the fresh soil gets into the plug holes.
> 
> Killing my reno took 3-4 weeks, that would be quite a while for the "regular soil" to fill in the holes.
Click to expand...

looking at lawn journal does look like it takes while for kill to be "complete'. I am planning to start the kill 1st week of june so i have enough time to recover. good idea about the plugging the hole with top soil, that was my plan. aerate and then spread top soil and fallow until seed down.


----------



## lbb091919

Definitely aerate after everything is dead and gone. It will tear up anything still living and it's easier to see what you're doing. If you can stand to look at the ugliness, do this as EARLY as possible. Get that topsoil down and don't skimp on the fallowing. Its probably the most underrated step of the entire process.


----------



## steffen707

make sure you have enough time to kill the lawn twice, plug aerate, spread soil, fallow, spray a possible 3rd time to kill any weeds that come up from the fallowing. 1st week in june sounds like plenty of time.

I started WAY LATE last year (my first renovation) and I didn't have time to fallow, and now I think i have 30 or so poa annua spots i'll be dealing with this year.


----------



## lbb091919

steffen707 said:


> make sure you have enough time to kill the lawn twice, plug aerate, spread soil, fallow, spray a possible 3rd time to kill any weeds that come up from the fallowing. 1st week in june sounds like plenty of time.
> 
> I started WAY LATE last year (my first renovation) and I didn't have time to fallow, and now I think i have 30 or so poa annua spots i'll be dealing with this year.


I fallowed and still have poa annua. I've just accepted that it's there and I'm prepared to fight it over the years with pulling, pre-emergent, and tenacity.


----------



## jackallis

steffen707 said:


> make sure you have enough time to kill the lawn twice, plug aerate, spread soil, fallow, spray a possible 3rd time to kill any weeds that come up from the fallowing. 1st week in june sounds like plenty of time.
> 
> I started WAY LATE last year (my first renovation) and I didn't have time to fallow, and now I think i have 30 or so poa annua spots i'll be dealing with this year.





lbb091919 said:


> Definitely aerate after everything is dead and gone. It will tear up anything still living and it's easier to see what you're doing. If you can stand to look at the ugliness, do this as EARLY as possible. Get that topsoil down and don't skimp on the fallowing. Its probably the most underrated step of the entire process.


should i start the kill now? it is still Mid May. i am going to start definitely in 1st of June.


----------



## lbb091919

jackallis said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> make sure you have enough time to kill the lawn twice, plug aerate, spread soil, fallow, spray a possible 3rd time to kill any weeds that come up from the fallowing. 1st week in june sounds like plenty of time.
> 
> I started WAY LATE last year (my first renovation) and I didn't have time to fallow, and now I think i have 30 or so poa annua spots i'll be dealing with this year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lbb091919 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely aerate after everything is dead and gone. It will tear up anything still living and it's easier to see what you're doing. If you can stand to look at the ugliness, do this as EARLY as possible. Get that topsoil down and don't skimp on the fallowing. Its probably the most underrated step of the entire process.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> should i start the kill now? it is still Mid May. i am going to start definitely in 1st of June.
Click to expand...

If you can look at it that long you can start whenever you want. Are you wanting to reel mow this? Managing the topsoil over a long period of time is a chore. It settles, erodes, moves around, dries up, etc. I was constantly reworking it over the month after spreading/leveling leading up to seed down.


----------



## kbgisbestbg

@g-man and others: question about next-spring spring fertilization after a successful reno.

My lawn is majority-KBG. I did a successful reno last fall, and I've been following the fertilization recommendations in a roundabout way due to lack of time and resources. Specifically, every 4 weeks since early March, I put down 1 lb of N per 1,000 SF using Milorganite. The goal was to use a slow release fert to spoon feed the grass in my place.

It worked well and I got about 1.5" of growth per week. Then, in May, I hit the lawn with 1 lb of N per 1,000 SF of Scott's weed and feed; it knocked out a bunch of clover, and boosted the grass to about 2-3" of growth in the first week, 1.5" of growth the next week, and now 1" of growth in subsequent weeks.

My question: now that June is soon upon us, should I continue spoon feeding (would be done with Milo again)? The guide says to spoon feed weekly and eventually monthly, but I wasn't sure how long to actually do that for. Is it monthly even through summer? I know the cool season guide says fert isn't necessary or encouraged in the summer, but I wasn't sure if being the first year of a reno changed that equation.

Thank you!


----------



## kbgisbestbg

kbgisbestbg said:


> @g-man and others: question about next-spring spring fertilization after a successful reno.
> 
> My lawn is majority-KBG. I did a successful reno last fall, and I've been following the fertilization recommendations in a roundabout way due to lack of time and resources. Specifically, every 4 weeks since early March, I put down 1 lb of N per 1,000 SF using Milorganite. The goal was to use a slow release fert to spoon feed the grass in my place.
> 
> It worked well and I got about 1.5" of growth per week. Then, in May, I hit the lawn with 1 lb of N per 1,000 SF of Scott's weed and feed; it knocked out a bunch of clover, and boosted the grass to about 2-3" of growth in the first week, 1.5" of growth the next week, and now 1" of growth in subsequent weeks.
> 
> My question: now that June is soon upon us, should I continue spoon feeding (would be done with Milo again)? The guide says to spoon feed weekly and eventually monthly, but I wasn't sure how long to actually do that for. Is it monthly even through summer? I know the cool season guide says fert isn't necessary or encouraged in the summer, but I wasn't sure if being the first year of a reno changed that equation.
> 
> Thank you!


Following up on this question. Any insight would be much appreciated.


----------



## g-man

I don't know the answer. You are not following the guide because you are using slow release nitrogen sources. They can continue to feed in the summer and lead to uncontrolled growth.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@kbgisbestbg I prefer fast release nitrogen the first spring after a renovation. If the bio solid you have been using is working for you and you feel it's growing at a good rate and not stagnant or yellow tinted then you don't need to add more.


----------



## kbgisbestbg

Thanks guys! Grass is green and growing well, so I won't add any further fert - even Milo. It's been over a month since my last Milo dose, so it should be gone soon anyway.

Thanks again.


----------



## steffen707

Hey, if i'm planning to nuke my front yard in 2 years, does it pay to start leveling it now? I was thinking of doing some kinda 1/2 compost, soil, peat? and 1/2 sand. This way there's still organic material at surface instead of just sand when I need to plant my renovation seeds.

I mean if its all smoothed out by the time I kill off the lawn, that's less work I need to do when i'd nuke the yard, then try to smooth it out as best I could with topsoil, right?

Also, if its smoothed out relatively well, then I don't need to introduce additional topsoil that could bring more weed seeds into the yard that I have to fallow.

Thoughts?


----------



## steffen707

Anybody do a renovation with a Dingo Soil Cultivator? Looks awesome. Do you still have to kill the lawn when doing this method?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIGrYSWplxs


----------



## Alowan

> It might look thin. You might think it was a failure. Don't panic and start spoon feeding (0.20 - 0.25lb of N/ksqft) weekly. It is still young and it will need some help. The grass doesnt have a strong root system, so the spoon feeding helps provide a constant food source that the roots can handle.


I Was wondering how long into summer one should continue to do this?


----------



## g-man

By late spring, i treat it like a normal lawn except i avoid water stress thru the summer.


----------



## Alowan

g-man said:


> By late spring, i treat it like a normal lawn except i avoid water stress thru the summer.


Thanks for the reply. Will let off the N then  and prepare for the blitz in Fall


----------



## steffen707

Can I get some clarification @g-man on the fungicide. The directions say, 
....."Next 18 days - monitor the watering and the green babies. You want the soil moist, but not wet. You do not want to let it dry. Ideal times for me in the past, 8am, 11am, 2pm, 5pm and maybe 9pm. It depends on the temperature, sun/clouds and wind. It is a constant tweaking (a wyze webcam helps to monitor when not home). After germination happens, I back off from the night watering to avoid fungus. Monitor for fungus and use a fungicide if needed. Propi fungicide is safe to use and beneficial in young grass
Now start counting from germination and not from seed down:
14 days after germination (DAG) - Apply a fast nitrogen source (eg. urea, AMS) at a low rate (0.2lb of N/ksqft).......

Do you need to wait for all the seedlings to have sprouted before applying the propiconazole?


----------



## g-man

I think so.


----------



## Jeff_MI84

When fallowing, should I run my irrigation like normal (3x per week) or more often to get weeds to pop?


----------



## steffen707

Jeff_MI84 said:


> When fallowing, should I run my irrigation like normal (3x per week) or more often to get weeds to pop?


I'd like to know too, fallowing later this month. Skipped that step last year. Arghhh!


----------



## g-man

I think it is fairly clear in the firs post:


T minus 5 weeks - It should be brown by now. Start bag mowing at the low settings to pick up the debris. Keep watering *daily* to promote the weeds to germinate (aka fallowing). Check your irrigation coverage, puddles/dry spots.

If you want to be super sure, go every 2hrs to just keep the soil moist.


----------



## Jeff_MI84

@g-man thank you. I must have skimmed thru that part.


----------



## thebmrust

steffen707 said:


> Anybody do a renovation with a Dingo Soil Cultivator? Looks awesome. Do you still have to kill the lawn when doing this method?


If you notice, after running the tool across the existing lawn, it pretty much kills it. /sarc

Also, I believe that device is a Rotadairon. I assume the term "cultivating" might be generic since it's essentially working the soil.

In my understanding, a Rotadairon vs rototiller is in the details. A tiller just mixes up the soil. The Rotadairon has a design that aerates the soil, drops rocks into the bottom of the trough (left by the aerated soil) then covers the rocks by that soil. Then it tamps down the soil with the roller.

We used one two years ago on 60,000sq ft of yard. Works amazing. We will be doing another full reno next year because we did not prep/level our lawn correctly.

Level the lawn first. Water well. Then let it dry out to use a Rotadairon. Work it in at least two directions, (three (initial
Pass/90*/45*) if you want to be extra thorough).

Not all rental houses have them. Ours has two models. One is older and doesn't work as well. Newer models have the ability to attach a seeder.


----------



## steffen707

Hey thanks @thebmrust ,i was wondering if anybody had info about it.


----------



## steffen707

Okay, I re-read the guide and I didn't see my answers to these questions.
Do you add Surfactant to the glyphosate?

I bought seed last year, if it's kept in a cool dry basement in a semi air tight box, how long would this kbg seed stay "good"?

I sprayed the reno area with glyphosate once, but need to relevel the yard with more soil. Should I wait to apply the second round of glyphosate and then add soil, then fallow again and spray a third time? Or just scalp lawn now after first glyphosate app, add the soil, fallow and then just do a 2nd round of GLY when any weeds show?
Edit, looks like my last question is at t-4 weeks.


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## thebmrust

I haven't read the reno guide deeply lately, but depending on your weed pressure it could take 2-3 rounds of gly. Kill what you see, grow the seeds, kill those then, kill what's left.


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## Bob Loblawn

I sprayed gly 2 weeks ago and my lawn is nice and toast. There's still green coming up, which was expected due to the fallowing.

I had soil delivered today to fill areas where I cut down trees, but was going to use extra to add to the above reno area I already Gly'ed.

It'll be a light layer on top of the reno area. Should I gly it again and wait a day or so to put down the topsoil? I'll be fallowing anyways so not sure it matters


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## SNOWBOB11

Bob Loblawn said:


> Should I gly it again and wait a day or so to put down the topsoil? I'll be fallowing anyways so not sure it matters


Yes gly it again before soil.


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## Bob Loblawn

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Bob Loblawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I gly it again and wait a day or so to put down the topsoil? I'll be fallowing anyways so not sure it matters
> 
> 
> 
> Yes gly it again before soil.
Click to expand...

Sounds good, thank you. Does it matter how long I wait to put down soil after gly? I would assume at least let it dry?


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## SNOWBOB11

Bob Loblawn said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bob Loblawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should I gly it again and wait a day or so to put down the topsoil? I'll be fallowing anyways so not sure it matters
> 
> 
> 
> Yes gly it again before soil.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sounds good, thank you. Does it matter how long I wait to put down soil after gly? I would assume at least let it dry?
Click to expand...

Give it a day and that should be fine


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## Scagfreedom48z+

thebmrust said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anybody do a renovation with a Dingo Soil Cultivator? Looks awesome. Do you still have to kill the lawn when doing this method?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you notice, after running the tool across the existing lawn, it pretty much kills it. /sarc
> 
> Also, I believe that device is a Rotadairon. I assume the term "cultivating" might be generic since it's essentially working the soil.
> 
> In my understanding, a Rotadairon vs rototiller is in the details. A tiller just mixes up the soil. The Rotadairon has a design that aerates the soil, drops rocks into the bottom of the trough (left by the aerated soil) then covers the rocks by that soil. Then it tamps down the soil with the roller.
> 
> We used one two years ago on 60,000sq ft of yard. Works amazing. We will be doing another full reno next year because we did not prep/level our lawn correctly.
> 
> Level the lawn first. Water well. Then let it dry out to use a Rotadairon. Work it in at least two directions, (three (initial
> Pass/90*/45*) if you want to be extra thorough).
> 
> Not all rental houses have them. Ours has two models. One is older and doesn't work as well. Newer models have the ability to attach a seeder.
Click to expand...

Might be a dumb question but how does it fully kill the lawn and anything else in it? I've never seen a mechanical way of killing turf, im curious.


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## thebmrust

In our experience (we used one for our renovation a few years ago) it pulverizes everything. Shred any grass clumps and use good herbicide management it still puts you out ahead.


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## Greasmatta

Great post! Thank you!
Have a question about glyphosate application rate. I looked at Connor Wards latest tube video and he is using the rate of around 70 oz on 8000 sqf (2 liters on 740m2! )
Here in Europe Roundup labels do not included killing residentals lawns  Though I found labe rate for "APPLICATION RATE FOR GRASSLAND DESTRUCTION" Where the application rate is 3-4 liters per 10 000m2. If I used 70oz with this label it would cover 1.25 acre not only 8000 sqf.
The label rate is for 48% glyphosate Roundup, similair strength as in video.


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## g-man

My friend Connor has a great YouTube channel and it is very entertaining, but follow the label rates. I use 4-5oz of 41% glyphosate per 1gallon of water into 1000sqft. I think the label is higher at 8oz per 1000sqft.

In summary, use 120-150mL per 100sqm in 4L of water. Try to add ammonium sulfate to the water first to increase effectiveness if you have some.


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## Greasmatta

Ok thank you! That is still 3-4x times more than label rate for "APPLICATION RATE FOR GRASSLAND DESTRUCTION" what ever that means. 
Is it because it is lawn kill rates you think?
What is the rate for killing unwanted grass/weeds in crop fields according to "your" label?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cropscience.bayer.co.uk/data/documents/roundup/roundup-flex/roundup-flex-product-label/&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7K3Coaj5AhVlYPEDHeuMA6wQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Xt-EJujtDtVgO1ZrWuauK


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## steffen707

Greasmatta said:


> Ok thank you! That is still 3-4x times more than label rate for "APPLICATION RATE FOR GRASSLAND DESTRUCTION" what ever that means.
> Is it because it is lawn kill rates you think?
> What is the rate for killing unwanted grass/weeds in crop fields according to "your" label?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cropscience.bayer.co.uk/data/documents/roundup/roundup-flex/roundup-flex-product-label/&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7K3Coaj5AhVlYPEDHeuMA6wQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Xt-EJujtDtVgO1ZrWuauK


This is the stuff I use at the local big box store Menards. Here is the label https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/RAGAN001/Prod_Tech_Spec/263-6217Label.pdf

"Lawn Renovation:
• Use COMPARE-N-SAVE CONCENTRATE GRASS & WEED KILLER 41% GLYPHOSATE to kill existing weeds and
grasses including the old lawn.
• For best results, apply in Spring or Fall, when daytime temperatures are at least 60°F.
• Under dry conditions, water lawn every other day for a week before using this product.
• Do not mow for 7 days before or after treatment.
• After 7 days, prepare the soil for planting by raking or rototilling the lawn. Rake up and remove loosened thatch
or debris.
• Mix in starter fertilizer and other amendments, if needed. Level the soil.
• Apply seed according to directions on seed package, or install sod.
• Grass seed must have a good contact with soil to germinate and grow.
• Keep area moist for 2 weeks to establish new lawn, then water as needed."


*This label says 1.5oz / 300sf. @g-man said he does 4-5oz / 1000sf, which is right in line with what this label says of the 41% generic glyphosate I've used.

That being said, if you're use to different units of measure for volume (ml vs oz) and area (square meters vs square feet), you'll have to convert it.

ALSO, just because Wisconsin United States is okay with me using 4-5oz/1000sf, doesn't mean your municipality is.*

here is the product https://www.menards.com/main/outdoors/gardening/lawn-plant-care/weed-killers/compare-n-save-reg-concentrate-grass-weed-killer-2-5-gal/75325/p-1444451836227-c-1463608034797.htm


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## MassHole

steffen707 said:


> Greasmatta said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok thank you! That is still 3-4x times more than label rate for "APPLICATION RATE FOR GRASSLAND DESTRUCTION" what ever that means.
> Is it because it is lawn kill rates you think?
> What is the rate for killing unwanted grass/weeds in crop fields according to "your" label?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://cropscience.bayer.co.uk/data/documents/roundup/roundup-flex/roundup-flex-product-label/&ved=2ahUKEwjJ7K3Coaj5AhVlYPEDHeuMA6wQFnoECAcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0Xt-EJujtDtVgO1ZrWuauK
> 
> 
> 
> This is the stuff I use at the local big box store Menards. Here is the label https://hw.menardc.com/main/items/media/RAGAN001/Prod_Tech_Spec/263-6217Label.pdf
> 
> "Lawn Renovation:
> • Use COMPARE-N-SAVE CONCENTRATE GRASS & WEED KILLER 41% GLYPHOSATE to kill existing weeds and
> grasses including the old lawn.
> • For best results, apply in Spring or Fall, when daytime temperatures are at least 60°F.
> • Under dry conditions, water lawn every other day for a week before using this product.
> • Do not mow for 7 days before or after treatment.
> • After 7 days, prepare the soil for planting by raking or rototilling the lawn. Rake up and remove loosened thatch
> or debris.
> • Mix in starter fertilizer and other amendments, if needed. Level the soil.
> • Apply seed according to directions on seed package, or install sod.
> • Grass seed must have a good contact with soil to germinate and grow.
> • Keep area moist for 2 weeks to establish new lawn, then water as needed."
> 
> 
> *This label says 1.5oz / 300sf. @g-man said he does 4-5oz / 1000sf, which is right in line with what this label says of the 41% generic glyphosate I've used.
> 
> That being said, if you're use to different units of measure for volume (ml vs oz) and area (square meters vs square feet), you'll have to convert it.
> 
> ALSO, just because Wisconsin United States is okay with me using 4-5oz/1000sf, doesn't mean your municipality is.*
> 
> here is the product https://www.menards.com/main/outdoors/gardening/lawn-plant-care/weed-killers/compare-n-save-reg-concentrate-grass-weed-killer-2-5-gal/75325/p-1444451836227-c-1463608034797.htm
Click to expand...

The label also says a 10.6 q / acre / year limit. That's 7.75 oz per K. Is that limit for farmers using glyphosate year over year, and not one time lawn renovations?


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## Blue1987

Hey forum,

I'm about 2 and a half weeks in my glyphosate app on my lawn and everything is brown except for the wild violet. I did a second application of glyphosate but so far it looks like the wild violet is winning the fight. Should I just leave it there and the new grass will overcrowd it? 
I plan on seeding labor day weekend.


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## OBXWNC

Thanks for this great thread g-man.

With the explosion of triv in my lawn, I will have to do a spring renovation. Is there a thread for us unfortunate ones forced to go this route?


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## davegravy

OBXWNC said:


> Thanks for this great thread g-man.
> 
> With the explosion of triv in my lawn, I will have to do a spring renovation. Is there a thread for us unfortunate ones forced to go this route?


From my own experiences having Triv, having done a spring reno, and having done a fall reno, I'd rather live with Triv for a season and do a proper fall reno. A spring reno may end up looking worse than what you have now. Ymmv but I'd play the long game.


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## OBXWNC

davegravy said:


> OBXWNC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for this great thread g-man.
> 
> With the explosion of triv in my lawn, I will have to do a spring renovation. Is there a thread for us unfortunate ones forced to go this route?
> 
> 
> 
> From my own experiences having Triv, having done a spring reno, and having done a fall reno, I'd rather live with Triv for a season and do a proper fall reno. A spring reno may end up looking worse than what you have now. Ymmv but I'd play the long game.
Click to expand...

I have a lot of triv.


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## Jeff_MI84

30 DAS, for granular urea, should I just fertilize .50lb N every two weeks or is .25lb N every week still good to do?


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## Phobophobia

I am doing a full reno and was wondering after germination if or when it would be best to apply liquid kelp?


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## g-man

Jeff_MI84 said:


> 30 DAS, for granular urea, should I just fertilize .50lb N every two weeks or is .25lb N every week still good to do?





g-man said:


> [*] 28 DAG - another spoon feeding of nitrogen(0.2lb of N/ksqft) and maybe some milo.
> [*] around 28 DAG or whenever the grass is above 2in in height - mow at 1.5 to 2in. Yes be careful in the turns but it will be fine. Let the soil dry a hair before mowing. A manual light weight push reel mower helps. Keep mowing at this height for ~4 weeks. Keeping it below the 2in mark helps the grass to grow tilers and spread.
> [*] 45 days - more nitrogen as needed (0.2lb of N/ksqft). Keep using a fast nitrogen source.
> [*] 60 days - Apply a PreM (prodiamine). Continue feeding the lawn and add P and K if your soil needs it.
> Herbicides and PreM after seeding


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## g-man

Phobophobia said:


> I am doing a full reno and was wondering after germination if or when it would be best to apply liquid kelp?


I dont know of any research around kelp and germination or renovations.


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## LawnOCDfanatic

Did a Reno on my front lawn of 1100 sq feet. About 5lbs of ss100 KBG and 4lbs of Barenbrug RPR. I pregerminated KBG 5 days, RPR 3, changed water every 24 hours. I seeded and covered with Pete mos. I had a little bit of a washout after 5 days. This is what it looks like after 7 days (today). Does this look too thin, can you tell if it's KBG or RPR? How long do I wait to see if it fills in before I throw down more seed.


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## Rkolarich15

I am 14 DAG TTTF and my plan was to start spoon feeding urea at .2lb/ksqft. I have a few thin spots that I was going to throw more seed down today and my question Is would the spoon feeding of urea negatively effect the germination and growth of the new seed I put down? Should I wait til that has germinated and established too before I apply urea?Or am I good to let her rip?


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## SNOWBOB11

You are fine to start applying the urea. It won't affect germination.


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## LawnOCDfanatic

At what point can you start adding iron?


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## steffen707

Is there any advice on when/if its safe to spray for fungicide after a reno? Last year I had something upsetting my reno and i suspect it was fungus. I was hoping to spray something to help curtail that with this years reno.


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## g-man

steffen707 said:


> Is there any advice on when/if its safe to spray for fungicide after a reno? Last year I had something upsetting my reno and i suspect it was fungus. I was hoping to spray something to help curtail that with this years reno.


The product label should have the info. Read the Fungicide guide to know what product to use for the fungus you have.


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