# Renovation in Southern Virginia - Bluegrass?!



## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

First off, thank you. Been lurking & learning for a long time. We've removed some trees and built a porch, so it's time to start the lawn reno project. Looking forward to getting advice and sharing along the way.

Info:

Location: Tidewater aka Hampton Roads Area (Southeast) of Virginia. Yorktown, specifically

Light: 4-5 of direct sunlight, rest is filtered

Irrigation: Yes (will install as part of this project)

Size: this area is ~3,500 sqft

I've killed off the weeds/grass, core aerated, and top-dressed with compost a couple weeks ago. The general plan from here is to level the ground, install irrigation, spread seed, and grow a beautiful lawn. I could use some help!

I may need to order seed, so I'd like to get that decision made first. The predominate grass here is TTTF. Struggles in the summer w/o irrigation, but the main thing I don't like is the constant over seeding. Zoysia works here but needs full sun. So after a lot of research, calling Virginia Tech, and the turf care folks down the street, I think I've narrowed it down to a 90/10 mix of fescue and KBG. Excited about any type of KBG since it spreads. Just need to make sure I can get it to survive here.

Question is on the Kentucky bluegrass. Should I go with one of the "heat tolerant" hybrid varieties (potentially better adapted but worse color) or give 
A high quality KBG (better color, potentially poorly adapted)? Some options I'm considering. All are blue tag, the SeedSuperStore is gold tag as well:


Southern Belle Hybrid Power. TTTF (Avenger II, Titanium 2 LS, Firecracker) with Fahrenheit 90 hybrid KBG

SS1002 TTTF shade blend from SuperSeedStore (Rowdy, Valkyrie LS, Titanum 2LS, and GTO) w/ Bandera Hybrid KBG

Same SS1002 as above with Mazama KBG

Thoughts?

Also, what are your collective thoughts on leveling with compost, topsoil, or a mix? And should I till in whatever I use?

Thanks in advance!!


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I've seen folks in NC grow kbg, so it is possible. The hybrid blugrasses are slightly more heat/drought tolerant, but I don't think they are worth it for what you give up in color. In the past, I've been a serial experimenter with kbg, TTTF and hbg. Kbg is my favorite. IMHO, I think it is more resilient to drought. I can pound it with water to bring it back before it hits partial dormancy a lot easier than the TTTF. My street is very hot, with a shopping center across the street, with prevailing winds from that direction. On really hot days, it can feel like a blast furnace. With all that concrete and asphalt, my hell strips live up to their name. Check out my journal for details.

I would go with the SSS1002 with Mazama.

If you get hooked on this hobby like a lot of us, you may find yourself thinking about a 100% kbg reno in the future. Lol


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Captquin said:


> Also, what are your collective thoughts on leveling with compost, topsoil, or a mix? And should I till in whatever I use?


I forgot to touch on this...

I would dig down with a long, narrow trowel if you have one with three triangular cuts to remove a section, to take a look at the soil profile (a bulb planter would work fine). If you needed to get some organic material down, compost would work, but I wouldn't lay it down thick, as it will decompose and settle. It's better as a topdress material than a leveling material. If the topsoil you can source is good quality, I would opt to go with straight topsoil.

I would not till at all. You will bring up weed seeds, and make your leveling job harder, with air pockets and settling.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is a list of cultivars recommended by VA Tech:
https://www.pubs.ext.vt.edu/content/dam/pubs_ext_vt_edu/spes/spes-66/SPES-66.pdf
None of your KBG choices are on the list. Most of your tttf choices are on the list.

Don't till. Use topsoil to fill in low spots.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

I would also choose KBG over the hybrids, and I also think that mazama is a promising option.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I've been in your scenario and still have this situation with more shade in one area of my lawn.
I'm in North Carolina.
My recommendation would be KBG and creeping/chewing red fescue. I've tried the hybrid cultivars, they aren't much if any different in drought/heat tolerance in my opinion compared to midnight/NuGlade, etc. Typical TTTF I've found to be very susceptible to fungal disease in the shade, I dislike TTTF and try to avoid it these days.
Your problem isn't shade, it's fungal issues, trees stealing water/nutrients, etc.
I have one area of the above mix in completely filtered sun and it looks better than the rest of my lawn. Very minimal dormancy while the full sun areas are toast.
I used the Hogan blend shade mix and Nuglade/Midnight.
I've done nothing to my shade area in >2 years other than pre-emergent and one spring app of organic fertilizer. The other problem is, shade areas won't recover quickly with lots of foot traffic.
Your window to seed in the shade areas is closing quickly...
I'm not joking here, if the area is small and you don't have much success I would recommend looking into artificial turf..


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Great stuff and there appears to be an consensus, which is nice! Appreciate the help on the top soil/compost component as well. Hadn't considered the settling factor. Also excited to hear that KBG isn't a hard "NO" in this region. This area of the lawn is small, so I'm not concerned about the expense of irrigation.

With that said and most of you thinking KBG is "better" than TTTF, should I look to do an 80/20 mix with 2 varieties of KBG for diversity? From a seed count perspective, that would be more KBG than fescue.

@Virginiagal Thanks for the help! I've read every thing VT has put out that I could find. Only issue I have with the lists is that they don't specify region. Unsure if those KBG's could work in the Tidewater. Here's what they have to say about the HKBG's. Thought you may find interesting. https://ext.vt.edu/lawn-garden/turfandgardentips/tips/hybrid-bluegrass.html

Looking forward to getting dirty this week. I'll take pics along the way.

Lastly, any additional advice you want to give is more than welcome!


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@probasestealer Very interesting. I didn't mention it here, but the lawn directly under the trees receives less direct light and I planned to seed with some sort of fine fescue. Not really concerened with how it does as it's a "natural area" any way. That's a great lead on the Hogan blend. Thank you, sir.

Also good call on the trees stealing water. Once established, 1" a week for the turf may not be enough with the 60' trees near by.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Captquin said:


> Great stuff and there appears to be an consensus, which is nice! Appreciate the help on the top soil/compost component as well. Hadn't considered the settling factor. Also excited to hear that KBG isn't a hard "NO" in this region. This area of the lawn is small, so I'm not concerned about the expense of irrigation.
> 
> With that said and most of you thinking KBG is "better" than TTTF, should I look to do an 80/20 mix with 2 varieties of KBG for diversity? From a seed count perspective, that would be more KBG than fescue.
> 
> ...


Interesting article on the hybrid bluegrasses. Did you notice that they said it had promise for the Piedmont and Tidewater?

I got some tttf seed for overseeding from Hogan. It was one of their blends and has GTO, Hot Rod, Turbo, and Firebird.

Have you done a soil test?

I wish you good luck. I'm thinking Bermuda is better suited for most of Virginia than the cool season grasses. My tttf does well from September to June. But July and August are brutal.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

I agree with @Virginiagal on bermuda's strength and cool season grasses struggling in the summer (in our regions). 
My KBG is beautiful March-June.. after that, it's dormant or (like this year) is toast in full sun. 
Here's my lawn June 13 and last week... Ugly. The green is common bermuda, unfortunately partial shade doesn't leave you with any warm season choices.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@probasestealer Dang, that's CRAZY. Yeah, i would likely with a warm season grass if possible. I'm from the gulf south, so being brown in the winter doesn't bother me.

@Virginiagal Yes ma'am, absolutely saw that it showed promise for the Tidewater. That's why I was excited about it. Looks like it just hasn't come far enough yet to out compete certain KBG's or TTTF's in terms of drought tolerance. Great trial from Kansas on hybrids as well. Summary was that in pots, the HKBG was the best performer. In the field however, TTTF did better because there was room for it to develop roots to it's full potential. Interesting stuff!


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

@Captquin welcome to TLF. I live just north of you in New Kent county in a rural area.

My lawn is a 3 year old non-irrigated majority KY-31 mixed with turf-type tall fescue and hybrid bluegrass with some perennial ryegrass mixed in. I chose to use KY-31 for it's better heat and drought capabilities. The KY-31 isn't pretty dark green - it just works for my situation. My lawn is surrounded by trees so it gets a mix of sun and shade through out the day. I did not use fungicides this year. I did have some minor random leaf spot that I didn't get overly excited about except for three applications of organic neem oil on some small rust and brown patch areas. The neem oil seemed to do well to contain/cure those fungus areas.

Since you are located in a residential area and will have irrigation, I recommend the non-hybrid bluegrass due to it's spreading repair capabilities. I'll leave the KBG cultivar recommendation to the members who have it.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Thanks @Powhatan. Figured you must be close with that username. Appreciate the helpful information!!


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Unless you have dense shade I would suggest 100% KBG over TTTF. Harder to establish, but much better dormancy recovery, far less prone to getting wiped out by fungus, and it spreads to fill in gaps on its own. Water requirement is about the same as fescue, if you have irrigation it won't be an issue. Midnight and Mazama are your top choices for a dark high quality lawn. Turf Blue HGT mix is a great choice for heavy traffic, shade and fast recovery/spreading, but you pay a price in the form of lighter color.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Have you read this article?
https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/48/4/article-p493.pdf
I wonder if you might contact one of the authors and see what is recommended for Yorktown. Matthew Cutulle seems to be in SC now but Jeffrey Derr is in VA Beach (didn't google the others):
https://www.arec.vaes.vt.edu/arec/hampton-roads/people/derr-bio.html
There may be more recent research or development of more cultivars. Dr. Derr should be knowledgable about what works and what doesn't in VA Beach.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Thanks @j4c11. I read some of your other stuff last night which also applies here.

I have to say that I assumed everyone here would talk me out of any kind of KBG in this area. Very surprised and excited to see all the support vs TTTF. Figured the deep roots of fescue would just win out.

As much as I would enjoy a super deep green, a healthy lawn is really what I want. The HGT may do the trick. Maybe I can find some Barserati. In any case, I plan to make a decision and order today. Leveling the lawn tomorrow and hope to install irrigation Sunday/early next week. Seed down immediately afterwards.

@Virginiagal I had not. Very cool. Interesting that visible coverage starts about the same with TTTF and KBG, but KBG wins out over time. Thanks for sharing.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Captquin said:


> Thanks @j4c11. I read some of your other stuff last night which also applies here.
> 
> I have to say that I assumed everyone here would talk me out of any kind of KBG in this area. Very surprised and excited to see all the support vs TTTF. Figured the deep roots of fescue would just win out.
> 
> ...


The HGT blend contains Barserati and Barvette which both score really well. I looked at @j4c11 pictures and I wouldn't hesitate at all to go Turf Blue HGT or what ever the blend is called. His lawn looked really good. I almost pulled the trigger on it but going to try the Mazama monostand first. Maybe next fall I will try the HGT to see how big of a difference it is.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@ksturfguy Ok, I'm in. 
Looks like Turf Blue Pro has the Barserati.

Having more trouble than I expected trying to find it. Any ideas where to buy it??

If not, I could go with the Turf Blue HGT.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I believe the Turf Blue HGT has Barserati as well.

https://www.toddvalleyfarms.com/seed-price-list.html

When I emailed Todd Valley Farms I asked them what varieties were in the HGT mix. This was their response:

Barvette HGT Bluegrass
Barrister Bluegrass
Barimpala Bluegrass
Barserati Bluegrass
Barduke Bluegrass

They didn't give me percentages though so that I'm not sure of.


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## Nehf11 (Jun 25, 2019)

I bought 50 pounds from todd valley earlier this summer and super excited to put this down in a couple weeks.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Good deal! Todd Valley only carried the Yellow Jacket coating under 50#. I ended up ordering the seed only version though StoutSeed. Already got the ship notification text.

Picked up some compost/topsoil blend on the way home.


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## mbaisley (Apr 8, 2019)

I bought some Turf Blue HGT with yellowjacket from Todd Valley. I noticed the blend is slightly different from what they shipped you.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Yeah that must be most recent blend, when i emailed them a couple weeks ago that was the blend they told me.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> Yeah that must be most recent blend, when i emailed them a couple weeks ago that was the blend they told me.


Is the Barvette the only one in that blend that you Transition Zone people are after? Or do the others in these blends have good heat/drought performance too?


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Barvette and Barserati score well in transition zone. I cant remember one of the others might as well. But I think the entire blend is made more for the transition zone so I'm guessing they all do well.

Barvette ranked #1 in quality in transition zone and Barserati was #4. Barduke was towards bottom. I couldn't find other 2 so cultivars so maybe they weren't tested or were a different year.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Good stuff, all. I sincerely appreciate the advice and activity on this forum. It was a buy weekend.


Brought in 5 CY compost/topsoil blend to be used in all areas of lawn

Spread blend in back yard but have not leveled as the Turf Blue HGT has not arrived yet

Dug up THREE truck loads of monkey grass in front flower bed (this area will become turf)

Spread and leveled blend in front and side yards

Seeded front with Rendition RX TTTF (fescue there now and seed was given to me for free!)

Rolled seeded area

Spread peat moss over bare areas

Started irrigating seeded areas

Looking forward to getting the *** down in the back. Also plan to get a fine fescue blend for some deep shade areas. I think it will grow there, but won't be disappointed if I'm wrong. Goal is really to help with runoff.

Please let me know if this info is useful and/or should be put in the "Lawn Journal" section.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

HGT Bluegrass should be delivered today. I plan to spread it at 3lbs/1000, apply Scott's new lawn starter w/ weed control, and cover with peat moss.

Any issue/preference on applying the Scotts before or after the peat moss?

Thanks!


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Captquin said:


> HGT Bluegrass should be delivered today. I plan to spread it at 3lbs/1000, apply Scott's new lawn starter w/ weed control, and cover with peat moss.
> 
> Any issue/preference on applying the Scotts before or after the peat moss?
> 
> Thanks!


I usually apply the fert-mesotrione after I seed and roll, but before peat moss.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Got the Barenbrug Turf Blue HGT today. Here are the cultivars in it this year.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Germination in 5 days. Steady light rain from hurricane Dorian certainly helped. Outside of that, irrigation is set at four times a day for 15 minutes each.


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