# Carbon Earth Co Replacement



## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

I've only used Carbon Earth products for the past few years and absolutely loved the results, by far my favorite product line. I'm on my last couple bags ( I stocked up ). Any idea when Matt's new line comes to market ? In the mean time is there any other products people really like, I'm looking for a small prill fertilizer something like Matts 8-1-8. Any suggestions ???


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## JeffCar26 (Jun 19, 2019)

I'm very interested in what people have to say in this thread.


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## Gr8tdanedad (May 31, 2020)

I have also loved carbon earth co products.. I don't know of any details, but I believe his new product line company is Renovo.. See link below. I was planning on reaching out to my contact to see if they had a timeframe of when products will be available..

https://renovo.eco/products/


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

The Renovo line certainly looks like the Carbon Earth line. Even the picture on the front looks like the Xgrn 8-1-8. I reached out a few weeks ago asking when they might be available, but got no response.

It would be nice if it is revived as I liked the Carbon Earth fertilizers.


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## 01Bullitt (Aug 31, 2020)

Ryan Knorr recently came out with a video about him and Matt selling granular & liquid fertilizer on a website called Lawn Supply Company. Looks like Matt was extremely instrumental in developing the fertilizers for Ryan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuJfCqajYjc
https://lawnsupplycompany.com/


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## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

01Bullitt said:


> Ryan Knorr recently came out with a video about him and Matt selling granular & liquid fertilizer on a website called Lawn Supply Company. Looks like Matt was extremely instrumental in developing the fertilizers for Ryan.
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Yes I do know about Ryan's new line but I think it's only soluble and liquid products at the moment.


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## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

I know Matt is involved a lot. Subvert, Renovo and Lawn Supply. I've also used the Subvert line in conjunction with Carbon Earth. Looking forward to Renovo and Lawn Supply to go public for the home owners.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.

If you are spending more than $200 for a 5000 sq ft lawn per year then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. That $200 would include scotts 4 step program plus an application of Scotts Disease Ex or Grub control.

Let's be smart about this.


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## LawnDetail (Apr 15, 2020)

Thank you for sharing your opinion. Me personally I like to support the little guys in our lawn community instead of the billion dollar companies. I don't consider them magic products, I use them because for me the price is right and for me they've outperformed any big box stores products. I also like the fact that these products include more beneficial ingredients other than just N P K for the same price if not cheaper. This is just my opinion.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

john5246 said:


> Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.
> 
> If you are spending more than $200 for a 5000 sq ft lawn per year then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. That $200 would include scotts 4 step program plus an application of Scotts Disease Ex or Grub control.
> 
> Let's be smart about this.


You are definitely entitled to your opinion and yes most lawns just need NPK but look who quickly @g-man lawn greened up this Spring...that definitely had something to do with the XGRN he's been putting down...

He can tell you for himself!


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

john5246 said:


> Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.
> 
> If you are spending more than $200 for a 5000 sq ft lawn per year then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. That $200 would include scotts 4 step program plus an application of Scotts Disease Ex or Grub control.
> 
> Let's be smart about this.


Scotts 4 Step is a pretty gimmicky IMHO and is also pretty darn expensive comparatively speaking.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Is it funny that I think that Scott 4 step program is a gimmick? Most are an overpriced pretty bag of not so great materials. Their application timing is very questionable too (0.8lb of N/ksqft in the summer?).

There are some products sold online and pushed by YT folks that are mostly water or are not based on proven ingredients. They might work, but they are very expensive. Take Milorganite as an example, it does work. The iron source is available at higher pH, but it is extremely expensive. So in some regards, I do agree with John. Be smart about what you buy.

But, XGRN is not a gimmick. The materials matt used were top shelf. The co composted into a single homogeneous prill of chicken manure, ams, SOP and iron is really good. I'm able (I still can due to remaining inventory) source it locally at an extremely good price. So, going local does help the budget.

If I wanted to really save money, then I could buy the same stuff in individual bags. But that means that I have to measure and spread 3 - 4 times for each application. It might save a few bucks, but it will cost me in time.

Lastly, to some, buying online at a higher price is worth their time and money. Doing the leg work to find a good local source takes time and dedication. I encourage to buy local, but this is a hobby and do what makes you happy with your expendable income (take care of the important stuff first and then lawn stuff).


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## whitetrash paradise (Mar 25, 2020)

Fwiw I hope to spend an obscene amount of money on my lawn this year. Just to look a little above average


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

It depends on which aspect of the Carbon Earth products you are wanting to replace.

If it's the small prill size, then Milorganite or a Milorganite clone will do it. I believe the Protene fertilizer GCI Turf is selling this year has smaller prills (it's also $70 for a 40-lb. bag).

If it's the carbon, then Mirimichi, Andersons, and a couple of other companies sell soil enhancers in the XSoil space.

If it's the peptides, then you could buy a couple of Subvert products and spray them.

I'm not expecting Renovo to be available to DIY-ers anytime soon.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

JerseyGreens said:


> john5246 said:
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> > Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.
> ...


Mine also greened up fast and all I did last year was apply Lesco slow release fertilizer and Urea, greening up fast is very subjective. Temps vary year to year, some years you get a few days of nice sunny weather which heats up the soil. *The grass greens up based on soil temps*. It doesn't know what product you used last year. :thumbup:


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

gm560 said:


> john5246 said:
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> > Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.
> ...


If you have a better method please share with us. That's the whole point of the forum, we want a nice open discussion where we can share tips/tricks with each other so we all have better lawns. What do you recommend besides Scotts?


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

whitetrash paradise said:


> Fwiw I hope to spend an obscene amount of money on my lawn this year. Just to look a little above average


That's sort of my point. We want the best lawns but which things that we do are making them better and which add little or no value.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

g-man said:


> Is it funny that I think that Scott 4 step program is a gimmick? Most are an overpriced pretty bag of not so great materials. Their application timing is very questionable too (0.8lb of N/ksqft in the summer?).
> 
> There are some products sold online and pushed by YT folks that are mostly water or are not based on proven ingredients. They might work, but they are very expensive. Take Milorganite as an example, it does work. The iron source is available at higher pH, but it is extremely expensive. So in some regards, I do agree with John. Be smart about what you buy.
> 
> ...


Oh I just meant as a source of raw NPK (for the Scotts), you would apply it at the timing and rate that is appropriate for your grass type and area.

Basically I'm saying instead of some product like Milorganite ($10+/bag) we're better off buying Ironite ($18/bag) and for organic material peat moss or a few bags of compost.

I've stopped using milorganite personally unless I get it dirt cheap ($8/bag or less). I opt for Ironite (granular) and I mulch my clippings so there's plenty of organic material for the lawn.

Where are our dollars best spent to get the edge? Some product with human feces or chicken feces? Or:

1. Extra blade, angle grinder, bench grinder to keep it sharp
2. Moisture sensor so our lawn always has the right amount of water (no more spending money on overwatering)
3. Spreading a little compost every other year
4. Soil test

Personally my next thing to save money and have a better lawn is to get some sort of moisture sensor installed in the lawn. The watering costs can get pretty high especially if you are doing a renovation in the spring (as you need the grass to survive the July heat).

You have to be careful in this world, there's many people out there who will try to take advantage, they even convinced some people to drink coffee made from coffee beans sh-t out by some animal and pay crazy prices for it. I can only imagine how much the person who came up with that laughed :lol: But people buy it.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

john5246 said:


> JerseyGreens said:
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Soil temps are one part of the equation on grass greening up...the formula has a lot more factors then just soil temps.

To your point on our lawns not knowing what product we used last year - that can't be further from the truth. Go ahead and skip your fall N Blitz...your lawn will let you know about it next Spring...

Lastly, products are plain and simply different in the marketplace - gives the end users plenty of choices which is a good thing. Carbon-X made a great product, awesome prill size that was mixed very well. I like supporting folks like Matt and some of the smaller companies out there that do it right - I don't support a multi billion dollar company that just cares about profits aka Scotts...


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

JerseyGreens said:


> john5246 said:
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What I mean is the lawn doesn't know the difference between one brand or another, I wasn't suggesting to not put down Nitrogen during the fall. All companies care about profits. I care more about getting a good value. I prefer to support local businesses if I can versus multi-billion corps when possible. You are free to support anyone that's perfectly fine. My point was more about the product and if they really are better than what you could get off the shelf. An example of this is should I buy Milo or am I better off spending money on Ironite (granular) and compost and spreading over the lawn. Which results in a better lawn?


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

@john5246 - that's a fair question. The beauty is all results may vary - you have to do what's best for your lawn and level of work. Spreading compost is more work...factor in time/money/ultimate outcomes.

I now understand your hypothetical question, re: how can all of us get our best bang for our buck.

If there was an answer to that then we would already have it stickied somewhere!

The reason we don't is that everyone is looking for something a little different. When I started out my lawn care passion I was dropping 50lb bags of Andersons Humic DG - when I look back at that time now - I ask myself holy crap I wasted a lot of money doing that as I've uncovered other choices, many of which are cheaper.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

john5246 said:


> Guys, stop with the gimmicks, put NPK in your soil, get a soil test and make corrections. All these magic products are just there to part a fool from his money.
> 
> If you are spending more than $200 for a 5000 sq ft lawn per year then you need to re-evaluate what you're doing. That $200 would include scotts 4 step program plus an application of Scotts Disease Ex or Grub control.
> 
> Let's be smart about this.


I think this is a good point and worth a broader discussion. At the same time, I could understand a possible counterpoint that some of these other, more expensive products save time/effort or even money through some other means. For example, Andersons products cost too much IMO so I would not buy them, but the prill size probably leads to better coverage than standard off-brand fertilizers.

At the end of the day, good lawn care results seem be a function of science, budget, time commitment, past experience, and desire. Each of these might vary from person to person, but all can lead to the same results.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

john5246 said:


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If I recall correctly, the 4 step is basically a 4 bags of synthetic fertilizer totaling ~3lbs of N per K. Some of the bags include a weed killer and the cost of all 4 bags for 5k sqft is in the ballpark of $100. So from a fertilizer thats like $6.50 per pound of N.

I bought 200 lbs of CarbonX in a group buy when it was first launched and am still working my way through it. I think the cost was $100. I realize that is not a common occurrence but I think there are many ways to get NPK cheaper than Scotts.

An example:
I could get a #50 bag of LESCO Fertilizer 30-0-10 50% PolyPlus, containing the same 15 lbs of N for $41 at my local SiteOne. It does not have weed control in it, which in my opinion is a good thing. Broadcasting 2,4D on my lawn is usually not required, so I would neither want to pay for it, nor expose myself or my family to it when not needed. If I do have weed pressure, WBG RTS is cheap, readily available, and probably more effective than granular. For preemergent, prodiamine is crazy cheap.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

We all have different budgets and different amount of $$ and time we want to spend on our lawns.

Fyi, ironite is a poor choice of iron at higher pH.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I threw down the cheapest 10-10-10 Home Depot has about 2 weeks ago. I was low on n,p, and k. This is today.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

g-man said:


> We all have different budgets and different amount of $$ and time we want to spend on our lawns.
> 
> Fyi, ironite is a poor choice of iron at higher pH.


What alternatives do you recommend? Ironite has sulfur in it as well I believe to drop the pH.

There is liquid iron by Southern Ag that you find on amazon. What other options are out there. Actually we should have a sticked thread just on iron.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

gm560 said:


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Yes absolutely you can go cheaper. I put the scotts there as a baseline/benchmark to go off of. I personally use Lesco 24-0-11 and Urea. That took care of all my need last year and is the cheapest option. I do want the option of slow-release (I put it down in June then don't fertilize again till August).

I also don't feel the need for the scotts products as I don't have any weeds so it doesn't make sense to weed & feed (unnecessary chemicals in the lawn). The KBG reno is thick enough just 3yrs in that there's really no weeds springing up. If they do I just spot spray.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

john5246 said:


> g-man said:
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> > We all have different budgets and different amount of $$ and time we want to spend on our lawns.
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When the soil pH is above 7.0, the iron in the soil becomes not available (insoluble) to the roots. Iron is part of what the plant needs to make chlorophyll which is green and used to take the energy from the sun. So it is an important nutrient.

Two main options for pH above 7: 1)chelates or 2) foliar

Chelates in simple terms means that the iron is protected/coated/bound so that it doesnt react with the soil and stays available to the roots. There are a few ways to do this. Some more effective than others depending on the soil pH. An example is the way Scott Green Max does it using a sucrate iron (sugar). Others use citric acid or more expensive EDDHA. You can also get iron from more complex organic sources like biosolids (Milorganite) or composted manure carbon prills with hepta iron (Carbon Earth). The main problem with these is 1) complexity = more manufacturing cost and 2) you have to apply lb in the soil to get enough for the roots.

The second option is foliar. Foliar means that we are bypassing the roots and soil all together. We spray the leaves and enter the plant via a small holes used to vent gases. In this case, things go straight in the plant without collecting 200. We need to use less lbs (really ounces) to get the same effect or better. The major drawback is that you need to spray it and it is more short term (a few weeks). There is a whole thread part of the cool season guide around this approach (FAS).

Further there is a thread called Soil Remediation Guide that goes into all of these topics (at a higher level of detail). In there you will find that sulfur does nothing to soil pH. It is hydrogen that changes the soil pH. Elemental sulfur (a specific type of sulfur) when broken down by microbes makes hydrogen available, thus lowering the pH.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

Market is wasting no time trying to knock-off what Matt helped create...



Got this email from LCN via Yard Mastery...
Knorr and Matt better hurry up...


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## kclyki02 (May 13, 2019)

The Lebanon Country Club isn't a new product just new to LCN, Site One sells a couple different versions of it.


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## Copat (Mar 20, 2021)

Earth works makes a line of carbon fertilizers (replenish is the name) I plan to try. Going to pick some up from my local feed and seed store.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

SunShine 3 cu. ft. Peat Moss is a natural, organic soil conditioner and is excellent for growing plants, flowers and vegetables. The peat moss can be used for reseeding lawns and is OMRI (Organic Materials Review Institute) listed. The natural soil amendment comes in a compressed-volume bag that expands when opened.

* Organic soil conditioner for growing plant*s, flowers and vegetables
Organic conditioner can be used to reseed lawns
3 cu. ft. compressed-volume bag expands when opened
OMRI listed

Here is something that costs $10 and spreading it over your lawn gives you great organic material. No human feces, no chicken feces, no volcanic ash from some foreign land, no gimmicks. They even used the word "organic" in the description so you know it's good and magical.

We can even do an experiment. I will start a thread this for this season using only synthetic products and a bag of peat. I'll put my lawn up against anyone here who is spending $$$. I will write my entire cost breakdown and provide photos.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

john5246 said:


> SunShine 3 cu. ft. Peat Moss is a natural, organic soil conditioner and is excellent for growing plants, flowers and vegetables. The peat moss can be used for reseeding lawns and is OMRI (Organic Materials Review Institute) listed. The natural soil amendment comes in a compressed-volume bag that expands when opened.
> 
> * Organic soil conditioner for growing plant*s, flowers and vegetables
> Organic conditioner can be used to reseed lawns
> ...


What benefit would come from 3 cubic feet of peat moss on your lawn?


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

gm560 said:


> What benefit would come from 3 cubic feet of peat moss on your lawn?


I think he is saying it amends the soil with organic matter despite having no NPK and helps offset pure use of synthetics. The benefit may have a lot to do with your existing soil.

For me, I have bad clay soil that waterlogs in key spots. Putting peat moss to amend such hard clay has done wonders. It has also contributed to my overseeding success. I believe pro-peat uses it in their fertilizers with good results by members here. The benefits may be significantly less for someone who already have great soil.


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