# Transition in the Transition??



## ScottM29 (Mar 8, 2018)

First of all, let me say thanks to the folks who run TLF. This is a great sight for those of us who enjoy our Saturdays a little more than others…. :thumbsup:

I wanted to toss this out to the group & see what comes back. Maybe it will make a good thread/project for the group - don't know? I live in the dreaded transition zone. About 15 miles from the cost - close to the VA / NC line. My house faces east so the back yard 4,200 sq. ft. gets full afternoon sun while the front is shaded by the house & my neighbors large oak tree. I currently have a nice lawn (by my standard) of fescue & KBG added last fall. KBG just because I love it - I know it really suffers here in the summer, but October, November & March, April -yeaaaa baby. I want Connor Ward's lawn but I'm just too far south (I think…tell me if I'm wrong)

You can see in my list of pics that last April I did attempt to kill off a slug of the Bermuda in the back and the fescue did fill back in well. I also used some Ornamec 170 in September and you can see all the Bermuda that was highlighted - (not to mention how stressed the yard looks at the end of summer). You can also see the amount of Bermuda I have in my December picture. There is still a lot back there. But that said it looks like the KBG is kicking in by the looks of my pics from last weekend. The transition zone is not for the faint of heart my friends…it toys with your emotions. :search:

So, I'm wrestling with the thought of trying to transition to bermuda grass (Riviera) in the back yard while keeping the front as is. My back yard is currently 15-20% common Bermuda despite all my attempts over the last few years to get rid of it. I have read J_Nicks reno at least three times (thanks bro!) and as much as I'd love to use that as my blueprint for success I have one major obstacle. That being; my 2 kids & 3 dogs enjoy being outside as much as I do, so the plan of going nuclear with glyphosate is not a clever idea. Several weeks of no lawn equals a ton of dirt and mud in the house. Did I mention I'm married? - 'nuff said. So, if I pull the trigger I want to plant my seed in early June and use what I've learned here to implement best cultural practices to help the Riviera to thrive. I know this is not optimal & will take at least two growing seasons to work, but I can be patient. I think… :lol:

*What I'm committed to do to make it work:*
•My Pre-M went down 2 weekends ago - we had that weird stretch of 60-70-degree temps for 5 days and I got nervous. I assume skip app #2 in the back if I go through with my plan
•I want to get 3 or 4 yards of sand to help level the yard - target early-mid April when the grass is actively growing. The lawn is level, but not smooth if that make sense 
•Cutting lower and more often. KBG currently at 2.5 -3" with my Honda HRX. The yard won't let me go any lower without scalping. I'd LOVE to get a reel mower (Swardman) but I might have to go with the ol' Fiskars for now. I hope with one round of sand I can get to under 2" with the ultimate goal of 1" or less - depends on mower
•More Milo & fert over the summer.
•Would love to learn about PGR and if that helps or is even necessary in the first year

*Major questions I still have:*
•I do love the deep green of my fescue KBG mix - but it struggles in the summer & I feel like it is harder and harder to keep the Bermuda away. Wasn't it Bugs Bunny who said if you can't beat 'em join 'em???
•Will the Riviera provide me with a deep(ish) shade of green?
•Is growing two different (warm & cool) grasses in the same yard a recipe for disaster?
•I know once I drop that Riviera seed there is NO going back….
•Is it even worth it - do I just keep doing what I'm doing?

*Here are some pics:*


FRONT YARD JULY 2017 - KEEPING AS IS


BACK APRIL 2017


BACK APRIL 2017


BACK EARLY MAY 2017


BACK EARLY MAY 2017


BACK MID MAY 2017


BACK EARLY SEPTEMBER 2017


BACK MID DECEMBER 2017 AFTER COLD SNAP








BACK YARD MARCH 2018 -

Help me come to a decision - today its 50 degrees and the yard looks good, but I know in August when the family is playing by the pool I'll want that nice tight green turf….I go back and forth.
THANKS


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Welcome to TLF!

First, don't believe anything g-man is about to say. :lol:


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

First welcome to TLF, second thanks for the compliment I'm glad it has been useful to someone. I've been very happy with how my Riviera has performed and the color but I don't think it will be as dark as cool season turf.

As for spraying glyphosate it's relatively harmless once dried. If you want to err on the side of caution you can wash it off after a day or so and keep the kids off of it.

What kind of PreM did you put down and at what rate?


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

One thought that comes to my mind is to nuke half of the back. Plant it and do the other half after the first half has grown in. Some kind of temporary fence could keep the dogs out. To keep the kids off of it, well, your on your own. From looking at the photo of the back, cutting it in half diagonally starting at the middle of the concrete at the right end of the pool, would allow access to either side. The orange net fence that builders use comes to mind.It will take longer, no doubt. But what's a couple of years if you are building something that can last a lifetime if you want it too. Remember that building a nice lawn is a marathon and not a sprint. Are you planning an irrigation system? Bermuda from seed is not easy. Constant moisture for several weeks is an absolute must. During that time weed pressure will be a great aggravation to say the least as to only control will be hand pulling.

One other option is sod. Sod is not an instant lawn, but if the kids and dogs get on it, it's not the end of the world. Bermuda is a tough grass. You have to mean to kill it - kids can't and it will survive the dogs. In my opinion, if it's in within your budget, sod is a much better option.

In a previous life at our first house, I sodded a small section to use as a plug source. I then plugged sections of the rest of the lawn. It took a couple of years, but the cost was minimal.

That front looks good. Too bad bermuda won't stripe like KBG. By the way, welcome to the forum.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Ware said:


> Welcome to TLF!
> 
> First, don't believe anything g-man is about to say. :lol:


First off...... This ^^^^^^ :lol:

I would have to say if I was fighting bermuda constantly I would probably join them as well. It seems like its losing battle. Bermuda weed grass looks incredible when its cared for meticulously.

What I will say is that if you get a reel mower with a gasoline engine you will not be let down. The rollers on the reel mower make bumps easier to deal with than you would think. The leveling project that you have in your plans is going to make a big difference.

No matter what road you go down, your lawn will look awesome with a reel and if you put the time and effort into making it look awesome. For me its all about the time I put into it. I love the time I put into it so for me its a labor of love.

I secretly hope to move south one day where I get less winter. With warm temps comes warm season weeds errr I mean grass.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

1) Did you put pre-m in the backyard your trying to renovate?
If you did how much did you put down?
Everything else will depend on the answer to those Questions


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to TLF!
> ...


Connor, you nailed it. And if you ever want to visit East, TN, come hang out. It's warm, the mountain views are nice, Bermuda is grass, and I'll drink several adult beverages with you.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> > Ware said:
> ...


Did you know that Bermuda could produce cyanide? Who wants that in their backyard? Who will want a brown lawn from sept until May?

I would keep the TTTF or switch to Zoysia before bermuda.


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## ScottM29 (Mar 8, 2018)

J_nick said:


> First welcome to TLF, second thanks for the compliment I'm glad it has been useful to someone. I've been very happy with how my Riviera has performed and the color but I don't think it will be as dark as cool season turf.
> 
> As for spraying glyphosate it's relatively harmless once dried. If you want to err on the side of caution you can wash it off after a day or so and keep the kids off of it.
> 
> What kind of PreM did you put down and at what rate?


Thanks - Not worried about the glyphosate as much as all the dirt & mud that will get tracked in the house - the kids and dogs do a good enough job now - I dont want to help them any. As for Pre-M I used 2 tsp of Prodiamine per 1 gallon of H20 - !,000 Sq ft.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Hey man,

So i totally feel your pain with our transition zone summers. It's not for the faint of heart to grow cool season grasses. Then you add in dogs and kids, it's always going to be a struggle. So, last summer i started Zoysia in my back yard. That's where I'll let the kids play. In the summer when they are outside playing, itll hold up more to the traffic, and sure it'll go dormant in the winter, but the kids won't be out playing much and no one will see my backyard but my neighbors. My front yard will continue to be cool season because i want the year round color.

Here is a link to my backyard zoysia transition.https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1855&p=37512#p37512. I list why i chose zoysia over that (cough) weed (cough) bermuda... I know this route is a long undertaking for me, but its the journey for me and not the destination. I only bought a tiny amount, you could definitely buy more than i did to cover more ground sooner.

I also am dealing the devil's weed in my yard, and currently treating with Fusilade II, which is basically Higher strength Ornamec. And Fusilade is safe (at reduced rates) on Zoysia.

One thing to consider, is either way you go (fescue, Rivera, or anything else) you'll want to remove that common bermuda you've got now. If you blend in the rivera with the common, it'll drive you nuts.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

ScottM29 said:


> J_nick said:
> 
> 
> > First welcome to TLF, second thanks for the compliment I'm glad it has been useful to someone. I've been very happy with how my Riviera has performed and the color but I don't think it will be as dark as cool season turf.
> ...


You are going to be waiting a while to seed. Like @Tellycoleman was getting on to, amount of pre-em applied is going to determine how long you had to wait for that pre-em to wear off/how long you have to wait before you can seed. If you apply seeds to an area with active pre-em, I wouldn't expect good results.

It looks like you will be waiting 10+ months from whether you applied, so, start planning your renovation for 2019 instead of 2018.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

@Movingshrub he said Teaspoons not Tablespoons so no longer than 3-4 months of control.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

J_nick said:


> @Movingshrub he said Teaspoons not Tablespoons so no longer than 3-4 months of control.


Thanks! Totally misread that.

In that case, 2018 is a distinct possibility.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

It's recommended to plant cold hardy Bermuda cultivars (Riviera, Yukon, Guymon) in the transition zone before July 15th to ensure it can mature and store enough nutrients to make it through the winter. Less cold hardy cultivars need more time.


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## fp_911 (Apr 10, 2017)

I'm in Charlotte so also a transition zone. What I discovered here is that the grass that thrives really depends on the direction your yard faces.

I lived in a home previously that faced South. On that home I had a tall fescue lawn that with average irrigation still thrived in the warmer months.

When we built the new house it faces West so the sun is very strong for most of the day. The builder installed Bermuda sod which I hated. I started researching how to switch over to fescue but my wife insisted I at least try to work with my existing grass.

Well she was right. A couple of neighbors did switch and in the warm months their grass becomes brown and patchy while mine is green as can be. Yes it took some work and specialized equipment but even in this transition zone the Bermuda does quite well.

About the dormant phase, it is frustrating but gives you a break from the yard work. This is probably a good thing since you'll be putting a little more effort forth when it's growing really fast in the warmer weather!

Good luck and welcome!


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

If you're really concerned about having a brown looking lawn during the winter, you can always overseed with PRG, like @Ware did, and I'm pretty sure that the "dead looking lawn" argument would then be a moot point. 

GO TEAM BERMUDA!


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## ScottM29 (Mar 8, 2018)

LawnNerd said:


> Hey man,
> 
> So i totally feel your pain with our transition zone summers. It's not for the faint of heart to grow cool season grasses. Then you add in dogs and kids, it's always going to be a struggle. So, last summer i started Zoysia in my back yard. That's where I'll let the kids play. In the summer when they are outside playing, itll hold up more to the traffic, and sure it'll go dormant in the winter, but the kids won't be out playing much and no one will see my backyard but my neighbors. My front yard will continue to be cool season because i want the year round color.
> 
> ...


Thanks - What other selective post emergent herbicides do you use on your KBG? I'm using some 2-4D & quinclorac for my broadleave, but I know I have lots of other grassy weeds - due to the 50 shades of green I have right now.


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## ScottM29 (Mar 8, 2018)

J_nick said:


> @Movingshrub he said Teaspoons not Tablespoons so no longer than 3-4 months of control.


You had me worried there - thought I was DOA. Thanks for the help


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@ScottM29 sorry for the scare! For some reason I thought you had said tablespoons not teaspoons.


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