# Help with Empire Zoysia in sugar sandy CFL



## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Empire Zoysia - who the hell sells this stuff as needing less water?!?!

Story: home built early 2016, Empire Sod laid down in January that year. Builder had their landscaper drown the grass in weed killer trying to keep them from filling in the large gaps between the pieces of sod. Ugh...whatever, 2 years of trying to get the yard to recover later, and here we are.

I am still battling Kyllinga and crabgrass in some areas (and have St. Augustine trying to take over the back...imma let it), but the biggest issue has been setting up the irrigation properly. This season, I replaced all of the U-series Rainbird nozzles with R-VAN's in attempt to get more even coverage and a lot less misting. I have been watering at 3/4" per zone 3 times per week (in a 2-day watering restriction area), and the grass still curls up and looks sick at the first sign of 85 degree weather. I have done multiple catch cup tests to ensure even coverage, and have tweaked the settings on a monthly basis since installing the new nozzles back in February, and yet here we are with the same issues I had prior to the swap out.

Any ideas? Everything I have read talks about how heat and drought resistant Empire is, yet the St. Augustine yards look beautiful with only 2 days of watering per week. The only areas that seem to be thriving for me now are the ones that have less than 6 hours per day of sunlight, anything more than that and the grass is curled up by noon.

HELP!!!


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## Christech11 (Mar 26, 2019)

Since you're in a newer build have you been able to look at what's under your grass? I say this because my grass looked great in the spring but once we consistently hit 85 degrees, my Bermuda would dry out super quick and would look like dried out hay up against green Bermuda.

It turned out I had a giant 5x8ft concrete blob in the middle of my yard. I contemplated taking it out for 2 years and finally did this spring.

If you're putting that much water on your Zoysia I would do some investigating and make sure there isn't any debris under your grass.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Send a soil sample and get a look at what's taking place down there. It could be a low CEC (probably not, but maybe). If I had to guess simply based on your descriptions, nematodes might be the issue. They love sandy soil and will eat all of the finer roots so that the plant has nothing to use in the uptake of water.

So grab some cores (get quite a few because it's 2 tests) and ask for a nutrient analysis (ensure cec is included in that test) and have a nematode assay done.

Probing the soil to make sure you have no hidden treasures isn't a bad idea either. If you do probe, get a core and put a drop of water on the core, if it beads up, you have a hydrophobic soil - another, easier, issue to correct.


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## caddyshack4reel (Apr 24, 2019)

Have you tried any wetting agents? (Lesco Moisture Manager)


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Just speculating possibilities.....fungal "root rot"

Something is not right, empire is not that needy


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## UFG8RMIKE (Apr 21, 2019)

All good advice.

I have new empire in sandy soil in central Florida and it looks great watering 2x a week. I have a couple high spots that will dry out quicker than the rest of the yard if I only water once a week. Working on leveling project soon.

My biggest issue is that the sod we got has a bunch of common Bermuda that's now spreading.

.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

If you have irrigation, I'd set cups out all over and see how much water you're putting out.

Here's mine from two spots in the same zone:



Drought tolerant just means it doesn't completely die with lack of water. Doesn't mean it will look good or not go dormant.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Christech11 said:


> Since you're in a newer build have you been able to look at what's under your grass? I say this because my grass looked great in the spring but once we consistently hit 85 degrees, my Bermuda would dry out super quick and would look like dried out hay up against green Bermuda.


I have probed the yard in quite a few of the areas, and have found nothing substantial to worry about. A few chunks of concrete from when the slab was poured about 5' out from around the parameter of the house is about the worst I have found so far. These builders don't seem to do much very good, but from watching then work on the new lawns, it does appear they at least attempt to pick up the larger items before back filling/leveling.



viva_oldtrafford said:


> Send a soil sample and get a look at what's taking place down there. It could be a low CEC (probably not, but maybe). If I had to guess simply based on your descriptions, nematodes might be the issue. They love sandy soil and will eat all of the finer roots so that the plant has nothing to use in the uptake of water.
> 
> So grab some cores (get quite a few because it's 2 tests) and ask for a nutrient analysis (ensure cec is included in that test) and have a nematode assay done.
> 
> Probing the soil to make sure you have no hidden treasures isn't a bad idea either. If you do probe, get a core and put a drop of water on the core, if it beads up, you have a hydrophobic soil - another, easier, issue to correct.


SoilSaavy test is en route actually, they seemed to test for more nutrients than UFL does. Nematodes are definitely a concern, especially since much of the neighborhood seems to be experiencing the same issues I am. I've thought about purchasing some of the Beneficial Nematodes from Amazon to see if that would help things out at all, but haven't seen many people use those other than the reviews from their site. As far as the soil goes, definitely not hydrophobic, it actually absorbs water too quickly being such a fine sand (which was part of the reason for switching to R-VAN nozzles to slow down the precipitation rate a bit).



caddyshack4reel said:


> Have you tried any wetting agents? (Lesco Moisture Manager)


I have not, also have never heard of these. What are the benefits?



jayhawk said:


> Just speculating possibilities.....fungal "root rot"
> 
> Something is not right, empire is not that needy


I most definitely had the same thought. Fungicide was put down earlier this morning at a curative rate over half of the yard experiencing these issues. If it works, i'll do the other half also.



SCGrassMan said:


> If you have irrigation, I'd set cups out all over and see how much water you're putting out.
> 
> Drought tolerant just means it doesn't completely die with lack of water. Doesn't mean it will look good or not go dormant.


I have the Orbit catch cups, and have tested twice since installing the new nozzles (once immediately after installation, a second time after balancing coverage as best as possible). Uniformity could use a little work in a few areas, but for the most part they have decent coverage...at least nothing like you're seeing in your yard. The worst zone for me in the Hydrorain calculator had me at 68%, and the best was at 82% uniformity.

Thanks everyone for the thoughts and comments thus far...it's definitely going to be an interesting year trying to get this lawn to recover before deciding to scrap it and installing St. Augustine.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Same location, same time as yesterday. Only change is a 45 minute irrigation session this morning...



I'm starting to think switching to 20-30 minute irrigation on a daily basis is going to be the better option for me and this yard.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

solodogg said:


> Same location, same time as yesterday. Only change is a 45 minute irrigation session this morning...
> 
> 
> 
> I'm starting to think switching to 20-30 minute irrigation on a daily basis is going to be the better option for me and this yard.


This screams nematodes to me. Keep an eye on it. Perhaps the longer run times are the fix (maybe cec is too low), but getting an immediate response after an irrigation, followed by the unexplained "heat stress" is definitely a nematode related issue. I had high sting counts on 2-3
of my greens last year...I could do everything and get very little feedback. Pulled cores; sting were 7x threshold...applied indemnify, and now it all looks the same.

If you do go the tode route, make sure the beneficial todes can deal with endoparasitic / ectoparasitic todes. Lance and sting reside in different areas.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

@viva_oldtrafford do you just apply stuff for them or do you test from them?


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> @viva_oldtrafford do you just apply stuff for them or do you test from them?


Test first. Indemnify is $1,700 for a 17oz bottle (1 acre), so you want to ensure you have them first. Second, you need the right product. Indemnify is a fantastic product for sting nematodes, but it wont hurt lance nematodes, you would need to use a different product.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

&#128562;&#128562;&#128562;


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

SCGrassMan said:


> 😲😲😲


Hah, yep. Indemnify can replaced with exterris stressgard (same ai) to have significant cost savings, but it's still a pricey fix. For a homeowner, it's cost prohibitive, but for the golf course / field manager, it's a vital, necessary tool. Hopefully op just needs a nice dose of OM to the profile!


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## UFG8RMIKE (Apr 21, 2019)

When does indemnify go generic? 1700 bucks is absurd.

.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

UFG8RMIKE said:


> When does indemnify go generic? 1700 bucks is absurd.
> 
> .


Very good question. It's been out for 3 years now, so it still has a while. It shares the same ai as exterris stressgard, so a lot of guys just go that route.

I think the quickest price reduction will come via competition. Right now, indemnify holds the belt for the best / only tool to combat sting nematodes. Once other competitors find an another ai, it will drop.

We lost nemacur (very dangerous, but highly effective) nematacide in 2016, indemnify filled that void.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> UFG8RMIKE said:
> 
> 
> > When does indemnify go generic? 1700 bucks is absurd.
> ...


I never had a nematode problem in lawns until Diazinon got pulled from the market. Normal treatment for Armyworm and Sod Webworm was Diazinon 4E or the 25% EC if a homeowner DIYd it.

Empire is very susceptible to nematodes. Other sign you have a problem is issues with Large Patch and Pythium


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## UFG8RMIKE (Apr 21, 2019)

Plz keep us updated on results w whatever u end up discovering and treating with.

.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Any thoughts on Nimitz for nematode control if that's what the issue is found to be? From what little research I've done, it seems Nimitz targets more than Indemnify does, at a much lower cost as well. I have 6500 square feet, so one 40lb. bucket of Nimitz will allow 2 of the higher rate apps per their directions.

For the time being, I've adjusted the irrigation to 30 minutes per zone daily until the city starts complaining... :lol:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If you can get it, Nimitz Pro G is a good option


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

solodogg said:


> Any thoughts on Nimitz for nematode control if that's what the issue is found to be? From what little research I've done, it seems Nimitz targets more than Indemnify does, at a much lower cost as well. I have 6500 square feet, so one 40lb. bucket of Nimitz will allow 2 of the higher rate apps per their directions.
> 
> For the time being, I've adjusted the irrigation to 30 minutes per zone daily until the city starts complaining... :lol:


Nimitz won't work on sting - the most destructive nematode. If lance todes are the problem, by all means get nimitz. But if sting are plentiful, nimitz
Won't solve your problem.

For our area (cent fl too) sting and lance are the two major todes.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

I'm not even sure a test is absolutely necessary anymore after seeing a cutout section of the yard. Clearly something is keeping the roots from growing any longer since watering and fertilization has been plentiful, and the soil is plenty wet below the grass.

First image shows the root length from a section I cut out of the existing grass. Second shows the difference between sod laid 3 years ago and sod laid 3 months ago.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> solodogg said:
> 
> 
> > Any thoughts on Nimitz for nematode control if that's what the issue is found to be? From what little research I've done, it seems Nimitz targets more than Indemnify does, at a much lower cost as well. I have 6500 square feet, so one 40lb. bucket of Nimitz will allow 2 of the higher rate apps per their directions.
> ...


Good to know. Exteris is one of the first things I apply to Zoysia that is inexplicably declining. It has not failed to make a difference.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Soil test results came back. Now I'm suspecting the lack of potassium as the weakness more than anything else. Switching from 3x waterings per week to daily at shorter times has helped, but still showing dried up spots in the yard.



And holy 10lbs/1000sq.ft. K recommendation!!! 😳


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

solodogg said:


> And holy 10lbs/1000sq.ft. K recommendation!!! 😳


NOT all at once. I would limit it to 1.5-2 lbs per 1000 and apply every 4-6 weeks until the end of the year or you get to the recommended amount.

I'm not convinced that the potassium levels are your issue, but restoring it to optimum won't hurt.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Spammage said:


> NOT all at once. I would limit it to 1.5-2 lbs per 1000 and apply every 4-6 weeks until the end of the year or you get to the recommended amount.
> 
> I'm not convinced that the potassium levels are your issue, but restoring it to optimum won't hurt.


I'm not 100% convinced myself either, but it's super low for sure. Apparently the kick in the butt fert a while back didn't do much for the K levels, and I need to lay off the P for a while for sure.

I see Lesco also makes a 0-0-62 thats in stock at my local SiteOne, might swing by and pick that up along with the 9-0-24 and alternate between the two for the rest of the season.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Here's 2 weeks later with the only change being the watering schedule. Switched each zone to 20 minutes per run starting at 5:00am daily (4 zones) instead of 60-70 minutes per day 3 days a week.



Today I laid down some N-Ext RGS and Humic12, tomorrow I'm laying some Lesco 9-0-24, and in a couple of weeks I'll lay down some Lesco 0-0-62 to help get the K levels back to where they should be. Rainy season is also beginning, so hopefully this heat wave will break and the yard won't look so stressed around the edges of the concrete.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

All of the supplements in the world will not do much if nematodes are the problem. I have been there done that. Other selling point of Zoysia is how little fertilizer it needs. If a lawn is not uniformly green and it wilts in hot weather, those are red flag symptoms of nematode activity. I keep lawns consisting of Zoysia that do not see supplements or even very much N. All nutrient levels are as low as they can get. They are acceptably green. Difference is, those lawns do not have a nematode problem


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> All of the supplements in the world will not do much if nematodes are the problem. I have been there done that. Other selling point of Zoysia is how little fertilizer it needs. If a lawn is not uniformly green and it wilts in hot weather, those are red flag symptoms of nematode activity. I keep lawns consisting of Zoysia that do not see supplements or even very much N. All nutrient levels are as low as they can get. They are acceptably green. Difference is, those lawns do not have a nematode problem


Empire is also sold as being drought resistant, but everyone I have talked to in Central florida is applying more water to their Zoysia then they did St Augustine...so I take sales tactics with a grain of salt.

I'm quite sure there is an underlying nematode issue, but for what Indemnify costs I can outgrow them for many many years to come. I am also surrounded by neighbors with very weak Empire lawns as well, so any nematode treatments I would apply will only help temporarily, as they will re-infest from surrounding untreated lawns.

If someone wants to create a product that will take care of nematodes for 1/10th of the cost of Indemnify, then I'm all ears. Until that time, I just can't see myself going that route. I'll rip this grass out and install St Augustine, killing two birds with one stone instead.


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## hefegrass (Mar 20, 2019)

considering the turn your lawn has taken from just a change in watering schedule, i wouldnt worry too much about the nematodes..


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

hefegrass said:


> considering the turn your lawn has taken from just a change in watering schedule, i wouldnt worry too much about the nematodes..


I used to think the same way. Then the lawn started crashing and developing intractable Large Patch. Causing me to have to replace sod.


solodogg said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > All of the supplements in the world will not do much if nematodes are the problem. I have been there done that. Other selling point of Zoysia is how little fertilizer it needs. If a lawn is not uniformly green and it wilts in hot weather, those are red flag symptoms of nematode activity. I keep lawns consisting of Zoysia that do not see supplements or even very much N. All nutrient levels are as low as they can get. They are acceptably green. Difference is, those lawns do not have a nematode problem
> ...


 Do not buy Indemnify. I can confirm what @viva_oldtrafford said about Exteris Stressguard. Again, that is the first product I apply to Zoysia that has a problem not related to mowing, herbicide damage, or a gross lack of water. That product is a fraction of the cost of Indemnify. It also is one of the best fungicides I have applied for the common turf diseases that affect Zoysia.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Do not buy Indemnify. I can confirm what @viva_oldtrafford said about Exteris Stressguard. Again, that is the first product I apply to Zoysia that has a problem not related to mowing, herbicide damage, or a gross lack of water. That product is a fraction of the cost of Indemnify. It also is one of the best fungicides I have applied for the common turf diseases that affect Zoysia.


Now that's a much better cost, and much more sensible for the average homeowner. It appears SiteOne carries it, but doesn't keep it in stock locally. I'll have to reach out to them and see about picking this up.

Off the top of your head, do you know if Exteris Stressguard is available in a 1 gallon jug? SiteOne and Bayer's website both only show it in 2.5 gallon.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

2 1/2 gallons is not a lot of material.. The application rate is 12 oz per 1000 sq ft per year.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Very good intel and going to start to generate a spreadsheet of preferred fungicides for use on Zoysia so when a problem appears, I'm prepared.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

I'm not sure if I should have started a new thread since this one is a year old but it's pertinent to my issue, I think. This afternoon I noticed a dark spot in my yard. My neighbor has had them for quite awhile where they would come and go. Upon investigating this I found the leaves of the grass were curled. Looked for any kind of disease but nothing. My last watering was Sat morning and I wasn't going to water again until Wed morning. It's been sunny and warm (near 90) here since Saturday. I'm wondering if these todes you write about could be the culprit. My first pic shows the issue while the second shows what happened after watering for 20 minutes and waiting 20 minutes. The dark spot is pretty much gone.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Spots in the grass that straighten themselves out soon after a watering are almost diagnostic for Nematodes.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Spots in the grass that straighten themselves out soon after a watering are almost diagnostic for Nematodes.


Thanks, looks like I will be applying Exteris Stressguard as you previously suggested.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

@Greendoc Are the Nematodes something I need to address ASAP before scalping and sanding?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

You are at the right time of the year for the first application. I treat in April-May and then again in September or October. You may have to adjust your first application for when grass resumes active growth. My grass is in limbo. Green but not growing until April-May


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Spots in the grass that straighten themselves out soon after a watering are almost diagnostic for Nematodes.


Well, hell. 
Betting I have not only the stupid bermudagrass mites I found (witches broom, confirmed mites with microscope) but also nematodes. I have those exact spots, that then eventuall start to thin out. And reading on the University of Florida website it says that the dry, thinning grass that is then filled in by spurge is pretty diagnostic. (spurge in particular seems to be a signal of nematodes)

I already applied one dose of Avid at 0.5 fl oz per 1,000 last night, with plenty of surfactant. But that was for foliar application, since that is where the mites are. I'll be repeating in 2 weeks. Can I sort of hope that it helps with the nematodes once it gets irrigated in? Just see what happens? In depressing news, UF says that treatments are an issue, in that when one type of nematode is reduced, the others flourish, so initial improvements tend not to last. 
I know I have the sandy nematode type soil, neighbors across the street had their zoysia decimated by something that their yard service never was able to figure out.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Without launching into a lecture on Nematology, Abamectin works on a type of nematode that Fluopyram does not control well. Fluopyram and Trifloxystrobin is what Exteris is. However, an Abamectin application does not last like a Fluopyram application. You are quite correct in that weed infestations marked by Prostrate Spurge being the only weed present are a rough indicator of high nematode populations. That is the precise situation I see in Hawaii. Only weed that is in the lawn is Prostrate Spurge. That accompanied by grass that does not grow well in spite of water and fertilizer is my next clue.

A non defeatist tactic is to combine Fluopyram with Abamectin for one application, then apply Abamectin by itself in following applications. Sounds complicated doesn't it? In another time, a commonly used lawn insecticide was extremely toxic to most genera of nematodes. Unfortunately, that was removed from market by 2000.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Only weed that is in the lawn is Prostrate Spurge. That accompanied by grass that does not grow well in spite of water and fertilizer is my next clue.
> 
> A non defeatist tactic is to combine Fluopyram with Abamectin for one application, then apply Abamectin by itself in following applications. Sounds complicated doesn't it? In another time, a commonly used lawn insecticide was extremely toxic to most genera of nematodes. Unfortunately, that was removed from market by 2000.


I have both those clues. 
And yeah....I still remember my dad using Diazinon and Dursban on the yard to keep the fleas/ants/etc away. Everyone used that stuff, and I know it was bad, but I'm betting that's why things like nematodes and bermudagrass mites are the problem they are now...no one it seemed talked about say, bermudagrass mites, because no one had them, because everyone was killing them without realizing it when they treated for ants/fleas/whatever.

Don't get me wrong, I got into veterinary medicine around the time that stuff was still out, and I do remember seeing what pesticide toxicity looks like, and I also know the average person has no clue how to read a label, so I get it. But yeah, tougher now.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

You said it, I did not bring it up. Diazinon was widely used by both consumers and professional applicators until 2000. I was a young amateur lawn nut in the 1980s. Professional applicator by 1991. I did not have to think about Nematodes because lawns never showed those kinds of symptoms if they were treated for Grubs or Armyworm. But, by 2010, the gallons of Diazinon sprayed on lawns degraded to the point where Nematodes came back. First lawns affected were the Tifdwarf and Tifgreen lawns. Then soon after, El Toro Zoysia. El Toro being attacked was significant here, because 90% or greater of every maintained residential lawn in Hawaii is El Toro Zoysia. I was literally at a loss in the gap period between the banning of Diazinon and the advent of Fluopyram. El Toro Zoysia being attacked by Nematodes is also extremely susceptible to Large Patch and Pythium root rot. For the longest time, lawns had to be on an extremely difficult fungicide program and even then, results were limited because the actual problem was not addressed.

Do I miss Diazinon. Yes and no. Per 1000 sq ft, enough material was applied to kill 1-2 adults or several dogs or many cats. I still remember in the 1990s, when a hand sprayer with a plastic pump barrel, had the pump barrel implode, causing a 1000 sq ft mix of Diazinon to shoot 10 feet up into the air. I was in a face shield, respirator, waterproof jacket, boots and gloves. That is why I am here to tell about it.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> You said it, I did not bring it up. Diazinon was widely used by both consumers and professional applicators until 2000. I was a young amateur lawn nut in the 1980s. Professional applicator by 1991. I did not have to think about Nematodes because lawns never showed those kinds of symptoms if they were treated for Grubs or Armyworm. But, by 2010, the gallons of Diazinon sprayed on lawns degraded to the point where Nematodes came back. First lawns affected were the Tifdwarf and Tifgreen lawns. Then soon after, El Toro Zoysia. El Toro being attacked was significant here, because 90% or greater of every maintained residential lawn in Hawaii is El Toro Zoysia. I was literally at a loss in the gap period between the banning of Diazinon and the advent of Fluopyram. El Toro Zoysia being attacked by Nematodes is also extremely susceptible to Large Patch and Pythium root rot. For the longest time, lawns had to be on an extremely difficult fungicide program and even then, results were limited because the actual problem was not addressed.
> 
> Do I miss Diazinon. Yes and no. Per 1000 sq ft, enough material was applied to kill 1-2 adults or several dogs or many cats. I still remember in the 1990s, when a hand sprayer with a plastic pump barrel, had the pump barrel implode, causing a 1000 sq ft mix of Diazinon to shoot 10 feet up into the air. I was in a face shield, respirator, waterproof jacket, boots and gloves. That is why I am here to tell about it.


Yeah, a pretty lawn isn't worth potentially killing myself or anyone else. I'll redo the yard in st. augustine, which if maintained decently around here, and fungus dealt with, seems to do pretty well even if it isn't as nice as a good bermuda or zoysia. And I do remember that my father stopped using that stuff well before most because he was sure it was linked to our young dog's liver cancer (not sure which one but one of the ones that was later banned). 
I started in vet clinics back in 94 or 95, and yeah, pesticide toxicity was a common emergency. We always asked first thing if a dog came in on deaths door if they had any pesticides on the property, or had recently sprayed. Over the years that became less and less common. And now, my son works in a vet clinic and I don't think pesticide toxicity is something he's seen at all there. (He DOES see it in birds, I believe..he volunteers at a raptor rehabilitation center).


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Diazinon is still around. As a pesticide for fruits, vegetables and field crops. So is Chlorpyrifos(Dursban). I think they are valuable tools. However, one of my practices when applying one of those to a lawn was to immediately water in the application. A dog or a child walking on a a recently sprayed lawn will absorb enough through their feet to cause a problem. But because those precautions were not voluntarily taken, those products were banned for use in residential areas.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

@Greendoc or @viva_oldtrafford , any experience with thiophanate methyl and nematode management? Found some stuff saying that part of the explosion in problems might be the shift away from that as a regular fungicide, and that using it in rotation with miticides might help, mostly sting nematodes if I remember correctly. 
Also, seems Nortica may no longer be on the market? That was something mentioned in an extension video for Zoysia with nematodes, but it was older.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

Results are back from the soil sample sent. What's puzzling to me is for all species identified the determination is that the Nematodes are below levels believed to be damaging to the zoysia. Any opinions on this? @Greendoc


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

How did you mail in the sample? I did read that they said heat can kill them in transport. I just stuck mine in the mail and am concerned about that. I sent it priority mail, as the price for overnight was a bit steep, and the only boxes I had around were the ones for priority mail.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

I actually drove to the University of FL Nemotode Lab in Gainsville and dropped it off.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Harley said:


> I actually drove to the University of FL Nemotode Lab in Gainsville and dropped it off.


Ok, that's dedication! 
The good news is that I think the Monterrey Nematode stuff works on root knot nematodes...but maybe time to look for another problem as well?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

In weird possibilities, I remembered that there is such a thing as a zoysia mite, similar to the bermuda mite, but different effects. https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/zoysiagrass-mites


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Zoysia mites do not cause wilting. What usually happens is an elongated corkscrew distortion of the shoot. It hits Matrella and Tenufolia based cultivars more than Japonica.

Are Nematodes present? Does the grass wilt easily but recover rapidly with watering? Last thing I do is not treat based on a number when symptoms are there.

@ktgrok Thiophanate Methyl is structurally similar to Albendazole and Mebendazole. In another time, lawns were not only treated with Organophosphate insecticide/nematicides, but Thiophanate Methyl was used at rates 4 x higher than what is permitted now with no restrictions on the number of times such an application may be made. I remember using Cleary 3336 at 8 oz per 1000 sq ft 4-6 times in a 12 month period. Current label limits application to lawns at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft and no more than a total of 8 oz per year.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Zoysia mites do not cause wilting. What usually happens is an elongated corkscrew distortion of the shoot. It hits Matrella and Tenufolia based cultivars more than Japonica.
> 
> Are Nematodes present? Does the grass wilt easily but recover rapidly with watering? Last thing I do is not treat based on a number when symptoms are there.
> 
> @ktgrok Thiophanate Methyl is structurally similar to Albendazole and Mebendazole. In another time, lawns were not only treated with Organophosphate insecticide/nematicides, but Thiophanate Methyl was used at rates 4 x higher than what is permitted now with no restrictions on the number of times such an application may be made. I remember using Cleary 3336 at 8 oz per 1000 sq ft 4-6 times in a 12 month period. Current label limits application to lawns at 2 oz per 1000 sq ft and no more than a total of 8 oz per year.


Interesting. I will say, I just ordered some to put into my fungicide rotation!


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

I agree @Greendoc . Treat the symptoms. I did find this product, Monterey Nematode Control. It's a fraction of Exteris Stress Guard. Any experience with it?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Harley said:


> I agree @Greendoc . Treat the symptoms. I did find this product, Monterey Nematode Control. It's a fraction of Exteris Stress Guard. Any experience with it?


I saw that too, when I was looking for Nortica. but it didnt' seem to be labled for most of the nematodes I'm concerned with...but then, Thiophanate Methyl isn't either but seems to help, so ?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Harley said:


> I agree @Greendoc . Treat the symptoms. I did find this product, Monterey Nematode Control. It's a fraction of Exteris Stress Guard. Any experience with it?


I never used that. I do know that Exteris and AVID got me out of a hopeless situation that threatened the viability of my business.


ktgrok said:


> Harley said:
> 
> 
> > I agree @Greendoc . Treat the symptoms. I did find this product, Monterey Nematode Control. It's a fraction of Exteris Stress Guard. Any experience with it?
> ...


Thiophanate Methyl is related to the benzimidazole drugs prescribed for animal parasites. Helminths.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

The golf course industry, through the work of Crow, is starting to get away from tode counts as a means of apply / don't apply, and rely heavily on visual indicators. How does plant react to water or ferts, and how do the roots look? Do you happen to know if they did a float test (not sure if it's actually called this, but they can use water and float root knot todes out of the thatch / mat layer and get a better count that way). No sting todes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crvis_Gs0d8


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Harley said:
> 
> 
> > I agree @Greendoc . Treat the symptoms. I did find this product, Monterey Nematode Control. It's a fraction of Exteris Stress Guard. Any experience with it?
> ...


Fascinating! Found this https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/pharmacology-toxicology-and-pharmaceutical-science/thiophanate
(also, I am apprantly a big geek, as lately people tell me that the stuff I find fascinating is not, actually, that fascinating, lol)


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

So, @Greendoc , if I'm thinking I may have nematode issues, and am using abamectin for the bermuda mites, should I increase to the rate used for nematodes and kill two pests (hopefully) with one stone as it were? (thinking I remember you saying the rate is much higher for nematodes...I can look it up).

I'm sending out a sample to the university from the backyard, which has no grass at the moment, so I can see what is there before sodding, but didn't send anything from the front since I just applied the abamectin, albeit at a lower dose, and I figured it wouldn't be accurate. I figure if they find them in the backyard I can assume they are in the front too.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Yes. Rate for AVID when it was SLN labeled for golf was 1.5 oz per K


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Yes. Rate for AVID when it was SLN labeled for golf was 1.5 oz per K


Thank you. I'm thinking I'll just do that when I do the second dose.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

I also want to say that when my lawn was looking better, I was applying a biological product labeled as a prevantative for fungus. I see that Nortica was a bacillus strain, and Abamectin was actually derived from a soil bacteria...wonder if adding those bacteria was helping. And if the fungicides help by shifting the balance of microorganisms maybe, since it seems the bateria and the fungi compete in the soil. Sorry, more just musing now. Certainly not going to hurt anything by using something like Serenade or Monterrey Garden Friendly fungicide (both bacteria based), might be worth a try to add back into the routine. And easy to do with a hose end sprayer, so fast. Wonder if maybe it is that bacterial component that is why some say adding organic material like compost helps...might be the bacteria in it, not the organic matter itself.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

Thanks Doc, Viva, no sting, the report states it was microscopic visual observation.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> The golf course industry, through the work of Crow, is starting to get away from tode counts as a means of apply / don't apply, and rely heavily on visual indicators. How does plant react to water or ferts, and how do the roots look? Do you happen to know if they did a float test (not sure if it's actually called this, but they can use water and float root knot todes out of the thatch / mat layer and get a better count that way). No sting todes?


On the form they have you fill out you can do the standard analysis, or a mist analysis?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Abamectin is also the chemical cousin to Ivermectin. Except it was selected for activity on mites and insects vs tolerability by mammals.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

ktgrok said:


> some say adding organic material like compost helps...might be the bacteria in it, not the organic matter itself.


That is what I plan to do on Thursday. After researching these dang Todes, I have given this approach some consideration and have decided to try it. Plan is to top dress with a micro screened compost then apply a fungicide. In preparation and to reduce the amount of water I applied a moisture management product.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Harley said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > some say adding organic material like compost helps...might be the bacteria in it, not the organic matter itself.
> ...


 Save your money. Skip the moisture management stuff. Water to maintain moisture.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Harley said:
> 
> 
> > ktgrok said:
> ...


 I was watering but my wife flipped when she saw the water bill. :lol:


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Abamectin is also the chemical cousin to Ivermectin. Except it was selected for activity on mites and insects vs tolerability by mammals.


Yes, that one I knew  Interesting stuff.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Harley said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Harley said:
> ...


In absence of rain, you will need to supply at least 0.8" of water per week to Zoysia. Bermuda gets by on way less.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Harley said:
> 
> 
> > Greendoc said:
> ...


I was putting 1" of water down twice a week to encourage deep root growth. All was well for 18 months. So my wife says," Do we need to water that often?" I dialed back the water to 1/2" twice a week, then the dark spot showed up. So now I water 1" when I see signs the grass needs it. On average it's 3-4 days between watering with no rain.

On another subject, my neighbor has an infestation that engulfs at least 80% of his lawn. I informed him what the issue is but his monthly service told him it is fungus. So they spray for fungus. I'm worried that the todes will munch their way right into my yard. I'm Not sure what, if anything I can do.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Harley said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Harley said:
> ...


 My understanding is that fungus goes hand in hand with nematodes...because the nematodes damage the root, allowing the fungi entrance.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

On sand, throw that watering schedule out the window. Try 0.3" every other day. You are not maintaining TTTF on midwestern topsoil.

@ktgrok It becomes impossible to control Large Patch on Zoysia if Nematodes are not addressed.


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## solodogg (Mar 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> On sand, throw that watering schedule out the window. Try 0.3" every other day. You are not maintaining TTTF on midwestern topsoil.
> 
> @ktgrok It becomes impossible to control Large Patch on Zoysia if Nematodes are not addressed.


  no way, irrigating every other day goes against everything the professionals tell you... :lol:

This is the #1 issue with most zoysia lawns, lack of water and improper irrigation. My Empire sod was laid directly on top of sugar sand, thus our twice per week watering restrictions will not work if you want to maintain a green and healthy lawn. I tend to irrigate about 0.3" every other day from November through March, and 0.2" every single day during April and May (dry season in Central Florida), then as needed on days with no rainfall through the rainy season by setting the rain sensor to 1/8" shut-off.

Yes, I do believe nematodes are a big problem that zoysia has down here, but proper maintenance will likely allow you to outgrow them and the damage they cause. Spoon feedings and more frequent irrigation is a great start, 3x per year Scott's weed & feed plans don't work in this case.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

@solodogg Sounds like you have some experience with this watering schedule and Empire Zoysia. How long have you been working at it? I have zero experience with Empire, Florida climate and soil. I am from MD and my lawn maintenance was fairly easy. Just to clarify, June through October the controller is programmed to run everyday with a time to put down .2" and governed by a rain sensor set to 1/8". Thanks


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> The golf course industry, through the work of Crow, is starting to get away from tode counts as a means of apply / don't apply, and rely heavily on visual indicators. How does plant react to water or ferts, and how do the roots look? *Do you happen to know if they did a float test (not sure if it's actually called this, but they can use water and float root knot todes out of the thatch / mat layer and get a better count that way). *No sting todes?


I did receive a response back from the lab,

"We sugar float & centrifuge to extract the nematodes from soil. How we count the populations is by visual examination under a microscope by our resident Biological scientist."


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## sk7786 (Aug 29, 2019)

i feel im having the tode issue as well....has anyone had success using a company to come spray instead of buying the stressgard?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Most companies have 0 awareness of nematodes. or they have bought the dogma that it is not treatable in a residential lawn. For 10,000 sq ft of lawn, I would forego some months of vice/toy purchases and get the Exteris and get a power sprayer. You will need it for that much lawn area.


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## sk7786 (Aug 29, 2019)

thanks man, i appreciate the help.. need to update the signature.....lot size is 10k, actually turfgrass is more like 5k


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Even 5k would be cause for me to get a power sprayer. Price and availability has improved greatly since I bought my Maruyama in 2006.


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## gkaneko (Dec 11, 2018)

So if I think I have a nematode problem what is the one product I should try to use? I posted a separate thread with an issue I think is this. What should I try?


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

I have to agree with Doc, I only have 3500 and after spraying with a 2 gal a few times, it is a pain. Two things, first you have to carry it around and constantly hand pump and second, consistency of the spray pressure.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

3500 sq ft would be one filling of my sprayer to apply 2 gallons per 1000 sq ft


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

gkaneko said:


> So if I think I have a nematode problem what is the one product I should try to use? I posted a separate thread with an issue I think is this. What should I try?


I saw the picture you posted. That looks like El Toro, doing its El Toro thing in wet weather. Damage is not apparent until the sun comes back out. How is that same area doing now? Your real sign is when that same area wilts in spots when we have days and weeks of warm weather. The fine leaved Emerald Zoysia is resistant to just about everything but Dollar Spot.

Price on the Exteris Stressguard is I believe $110 per gallon/2.5 gallon bottle. Not sure if the two vendors who carry it will allow you to buy it being that it is labeled for use by commercial applicators.


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## gkaneko (Dec 11, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> gkaneko said:
> 
> 
> > So if I think I have a nematode problem what is the one product I should try to use? I posted a separate thread with an issue I think is this. What should I try?
> ...


It's much drier now. In fact I had to start watering a little. Even the emerald zoysia is struggling a bit. Do you recommend letting it be for a while and see?

I was going to try and purchase online somewhere and see if they'd ship it to me!


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## FlaDave (Jul 10, 2018)

@Greendoc Does exteris stressgard control nemaodes @ regular label
rates? If so I would definitely like to add it to my fungicide rotation despite the hefty price tag.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

FlaDave said:


> @Greendoc Does exteris stressgard control nemaodes @ regular label
> rates? If so I would definitely like to add it to my fungicide rotation despite the hefty price tag.


I found some USGA papers on Exteris being applied as per label with success but with the caveat after an initial treatment with Indemnify.


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

One more treatment I discovered in my research is Diatomaceous Earth.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Harley said:


> One more treatment I discovered in my research is Diatomaceous Earth.


Link? My understanding is DE is rendered useless by moisture...so not sure how it would work IN the soil. But maybe that is for other applications?

Edit: Looked it up. Yeah, has to be dry. 
"The product also has to be dry to be effective." https://homeguides.sfgate.com/use-diatomaceous-earth-lawns-74517.html

and another site had a company that produces beneficial nematodes for gardens say that DE is not a problem for them at all, totally compatible.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

FlaDave said:


> @Greendoc Does exteris stressgard control nemaodes @ regular label
> rates? If so I would definitely like to add it to my fungicide rotation despite the hefty price tag.


If you do, let me know, I'd be happy to buy some off of you


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

5 oz per 1000 sq ft watered in ASAP. @ktgrok @FlaDave Differences between Indemnify and Exteris includes surfactants included in the formulation and watering in protocol. Not watering in Exteris makes it a less effective nematicide. I have no problems getting it to work watering it in as soon as application has been completed.


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## FlaDave (Jul 10, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> 5 oz per 1000 sq ft watered in ASAP. @ktgrok @FlaDave Differences between Indemnify and Exteris includes surfactants included in the formulation and watering in protocol. Not watering in Exteris makes it a less effective nematicide. I have no problems getting it to work watering it in as soon as application has been completed.


Thank you sir. Sounds like a winner to me. I recently applied 2 rounds of azozy for leaf spot. It helped but I still have it. I don't have much spurge but my weak thin areas are where it's popping up, so I'm willing to spend a little extra for a multipurpose product.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

@Harley how long did it take to get the results of the nematode assay from UF?


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## Harley (May 3, 2020)

@ktgrok It was about a week.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Harley said:


> @ktgrok It was about a week.


Thanks! I can see from the tracking info that they got my sample on thursday of last week, so hopefully by the end of the week I'll get results


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

And, just got my results. 
This is from the backyard, so currently very little living grass as I killed off most of the rye weeks ago. Im assuming that may have even lowered the numbers. And the Exteris I am getting a share of isn't going to help the lance, although it will sting. Abamectin might help, which I have, but this article isn't very promising. Seems just doing as much as possible to reduce turf stress, especially treating/preventing the fungal diseases that the nematodes promote, is the key. https://www.gcmonline.com/course/environment/news/lance-nematodes-bermudagrass


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## A to Zoysia (Apr 4, 2020)

I'm not sure of the root cause of the watering thing but I just shot a video on Hydretain. I'll be posting some updates as time goes on...Please check out the channel for the video if you'd like...link is below.


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## LHP_Grass (Jun 19, 2020)

Greendoc said:


> Without launching into a lecture on Nematology, Abamectin works on a type of nematode that Fluopyram does not control well. Fluopyram and Trifloxystrobin is what Exteris is. However, an Abamectin application does not last like a Fluopyram application. You are quite correct in that weed infestations marked by Prostrate Spurge being the only weed present are a rough indicator of high nematode populations. That is the precise situation I see in Hawaii. Only weed that is in the lawn is Prostrate Spurge. That accompanied by grass that does not grow well in spite of water and fertilizer is my next clue.
> 
> *A non defeatist tactic is to combine Fluopyram with Abamectin for one application, then apply Abamectin by itself in following applications. * Sounds complicated doesn't it? In another time, a commonly used lawn insecticide was extremely toxic to most genera of nematodes. Unfortunately, that was removed from market by 2000.


Bumping this up, as I was about to ask this very thing. What are recommended rates for a Fluopyram/Abamectin combo? I ask in case there is synergistic action when mixed and don't want to over apply. I assume surfactant and watering in immediately as well.

Edit: @Greendoc help!


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