# Keep or Renovate



## supradude (Dec 20, 2018)

Looking for advice on whether I should do an entire lawn renovation.

A little background; purchased the house 10 years ago it was a solid 90% crabgrass (no joke). I didn't have the time up until around 3 years ago to transform it. First year I only used crabgrass preventer and would spray for weeds and any stubborn crabgrass followed by an overseed in the fall. Year two, I dethatched, swept and overseeded in the spring and fall, also using the preventer in early summer. Year three another dethatch/sweep/overseed in the spring. The early summer heat made the preventer pointless to put down, but the overseeding really helped keep it at bay, so just regular spraying spots. I have also been fertilizing twice a year each year.

I'm pretty pleased with my results thus far. Picture below, but it is well over a year old (and a new driveway later).










Unfortunately I used K31 for all of my overseeding... and it is much more more prevalent than what the picture shows, though it still looks good. Thanks to my inexperience, I didn't realize the mistake I made up until this last season. I do not like it.

If I do this, it would be in three stages due to the size of my lawn (approximately 29,000 sqft). I'd like to stay away from going full roundup, so I would attempt to use 75% pure vinegar to kill the current grass and then go with Jaguar 4 Turf Type Fescue. My father has always used Jaguar with great results; it is a gorgeous, deep, dark green bladed grass and I really like the way it looks. His lawn is the older Jaguar variety and the newer Jaguar 4, at least from what I've read, is an even better seed than what my father has, so I think that would be my direction.

Should I go with this crazy renovation, or should I just begin overseeding with a different seed and hope in a few years it chokes out the K31? Or am I just being a nut?


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Using simply Vinegar is not going to yield the results you need to kill K31. I'm not sure what your reasoning is against glyphosate. I suspect it comes from the recent news coverage. If so please seek true academic studies. Don't fall victim to confirmation bias.

Something else to consider is not to over-seed in spring. It sets you up for crabgrass outbreaks. Most professionals only over-seed in the fall for that exact reason. And the others that will over-seed in the spring simply want your money.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to TLF.

If you find k31 ugly (I do too), then you need to kill it (ideally round up). Chocking it doesn't work.

Like high leverage said, seeding should not be done in the spring. A Reno for st.louis should target seed down the around the 3rd week of August. Doing it early risk that the grass dies in the summer heat.

One other thing to point out is that preventer (aka prem) should go down earlier, like the first week of April for your area. The cool season guide has some pointers around how to know when to do it. But you don't want to do that if you are renovating since it will prevent your seeds from establishing.

Lastly, a Reno is a low of work. Early preparation is just 50% of the success. The rest is a bit of luck from mother nature. You will need a solid plan on how to keep the Reno area irrigated (moist soil 24/7). This might mean watering 6+ times a day for short durations. Don't underestimate how hard this could be without timers and a bunch of hoses or in ground irrigation.

Most members are hibernating. In the spring you will get more feedback.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I agree that the most difficult part of a Reno for you would be keeping it irrigated. I'm guessing you have a way to irrigate being you've done a few overseeds already? If yes and you've got hoses or in ground sprinklers, then the rest is just making sure you've got a good plan and get everything you need early.

To you're question as to whether you should reno or not. That is obviously up to you. But if you've got the time and your not happy with the k31, then I say go for it. Renovations really aren't that much more work that overseeding other than the round up, and yes, round up is your best and really only option for a full kill of your existing lawn.

If you haven't already, look through the lawn journal section of the forum and check out some other peoples renos. It's very informative and helpful to see how others did there renos and all the products and choices they made.

Welcome to TLF by the way and keep us informed on what you choose to do.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

If I were in your shoes I wouldn't do a full reno. You look to have a healthy stand of turf there. I'd focus on the rest of the landscape first. You have a decent amount of area to work with and plenty of opportunity to really jazz things up. Trees, shrubs, flowers, ground covers. There's plenty to do to keep busy.


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## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> If I were in your shoes I wouldn't do a full reno. You look to have a healthy stand of turf there. I'd focus on the rest of the landscape first.


I would agree with Delmarva. Lawn looks very nice in the photo. I am not familiar with K31, but looks good to me :thumbup:


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I think your lawn looks great and I would keep it and stick to yearly fall overseeds if it were mine.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

It's the worst when you have something that's not good enough to be completely happy with but not bad enough to get rid of. That goes for more than just lawns.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

A complete reno on that much acreage would be a very major deal. Trust me, I did 19k about 5 years ago and it was a ton of work (much more than I expected) and now looking back I truly got lucky that mother nature cooperated. While K31 in a full TTTF lawn sticks out like a sore thumb a full K31 lawn really doesn't look that bad. And overseeding with a TTTF variety into what you already have will look patchy.


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## supradude (Dec 20, 2018)

high leverage said:


> Using simply Vinegar is not going to yield the results you need to kill K31. I'm not sure what your reasoning is against glyphosate. I suspect it comes from the recent news coverage. If so please seek true academic studies. Don't fall victim to confirmation bias.


Definitely not worried. No way I could have got my lawn the way it is without (crabgrass, nutsedge, etc.). From the bit of research I've done, I read using a high concentrate of vinegar such as 75% would be strong enough to kill the lawn, and I would be able to seed not long after, unlike the long wait with glyphosate. That was really the reasoning.



> Something else to consider is not to over-seed in spring. It sets you up for crabgrass outbreaks. Most professionals only over-seed in the fall for that exact reason. And the others that will over-seed in the spring simply want your money.


I meant to say I only overseeded in the fall this past season, not spring. I was only doing the spring due to the sheer amount of crabgrass I was working on choking out and will only be doing fall from here on out. Either way, drought and heat hasn't been kind in either season the last few years, despite my constant watering (even moving sprinklers at midnight).



g-man said:


> If you find k31 ugly (I do too), then you need to kill it (ideally round up). Chocking it doesn't work.


Not what I want to hear…



> One other thing to point out is that preventer (aka prem) should go down earlier, like the first week of April for your area. The cool season guide has some pointers around how to know when to do it. But you don't want to do that if you are renovating since it will prevent your seeds from establishing.


Tried to this spring, but it was summer basically starting in March and I couldn't get ahead.



> Lastly, a Reno is a low of work. Early preparation is just 50% of the success. The rest is a bit of luck from mother nature. You will need a solid plan on how to keep the Reno area irrigated (moist soil 24/7). This might mean watering 6+ times a day for short durations. Don't underestimate how hard this could be without timers and a bunch of hoses or in ground irrigation.


I have done some Reno already over the years on pieces of the lawn. No irrigation (future DIY project), but I have plenty of hoses, sprinklers and timers that have accumulated over the years.



Delmarva Keith said:


> If I were in your shoes I wouldn't do a full reno. You look to have a healthy stand of turf there. I'd focus on the rest of the landscape first. You have a decent amount of area to work with and plenty of opportunity to really jazz things up. Trees, shrubs, flowers, ground covers. There's plenty to do to keep busy.


I always want more to do. It's a sickness.



j4c11 said:


> It's the worst when you have something that's not good enough to be completely happy with but not bad enough to get rid of. That goes for more than just lawns.


Truth.



ForsheeMS said:


> A complete reno on that much acreage would be a very major deal.


That is why I would do it in 3 phases over the next couple of years.



> While K31 in a full TTTF lawn sticks out like a sore thumb a full K31 lawn really doesn't look that bad. And overseeding with a TTTF variety into what you already have will look patchy.


Maybe I should just kill the areas that are really bad and work on it that way. At least I have the off season to stew on the idea. I already know I'm a little crazy even thinking about it. My neighbors likely think it as well.

Everyone's feedback is greatly appreciated. :thumbup:


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## desirous (Dec 15, 2017)

supradude said:


> From the bit of research I've done, I read using a high concentrate of vinegar such as 75% would be strong enough to kill the lawn, and I would be able to seed not long after, unlike the long wait with glyphosate. That was really the reasoning.


What gave you the idea that there is a long wait with glyphosate? You can seed same day you spray glyphosate. Actually,you could even spread the seed first, and then glyphosate, as it only kills actively growing plants, not seeds.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

supradude said:


> high leverage said:
> 
> 
> > Using simply Vinegar is not going to yield the results you need to kill K31. I'm not sure what your reasoning is against glyphosate. I suspect it comes from the recent news coverage. If so please seek true academic studies. Don't fall victim to confirmation bias.
> ...


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## supradude (Dec 20, 2018)

desirous said:


> supradude said:
> 
> 
> > From the bit of research I've done, I read using a high concentrate of vinegar such as 75% would be strong enough to kill the lawn, and I would be able to seed not long after, unlike the long wait with glyphosate. That was really the reasoning.
> ...


Sure wish I knew. Maybe using the roundup weed killer with crabgrass control and the prem over the years, I guess it got stuck in my head I had to wait months when in fact glyphosate isn't a prem. Many thanks for waking me up.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Prodiamine is an excellent pre emergent and works very well on crabgrass. It's cheap ($60 for a 5lbs jug that would last you at least 5 years) at domyown.com. Only real downside is it must be sprayed so you would have the investment of a pull behind sprayer which you may already have plus you can use the sprayer for other things too. Using a split app early spring and early summer would eliminate most of your crabgrass issues.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> Only real downside is it must be sprayed so you would have the investment of a pull behind sprayer which you may already have plus you can use the sprayer for other things too. Using a split app early spring and early summer would eliminate most of your crabgrass issues.


There are granular Prodiamine products, most often under the names Barricade or Cavalcade, in 0.37% AI. They're more expensive of course.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

supradude said:


> desirous said:
> 
> 
> > What gave you the idea that there is a long wait with glyphosate? You can seed same day you spray glyphosate. Actually,you could even spread the seed first, and then glyphosate, as it only kills actively growing plants, not seeds.
> ...


A lot of the Roundup brand products do have other things mixed in.


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## supradude (Dec 20, 2018)

Just to give an update, I am still leaning towards a reno, though I won't make the decision until late August. I mean it looks okay thanks to it being late April, but I really just do not like the way the K31 looks. Took this pic a few days ago (sorry for the uneven cross lines).










Edited (3x) to fix broken image link.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

@supradude if you're planning on a reno for this year, you need to decide before late august. Late august is a good time to put seed down. I'm in the stl area too and i started spraying glyphosate in july to get the seed bed ready by late august.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Careful with high concentrate Vinegar...that stuff is dangerous--can burn skin instantly.


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## llO0DQLE (Dec 4, 2017)

You said you don't like it, so kill it. Forget the vinegar, use Round up. Make sure you wear PPE then any concerns about RU should be nullified.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

supradude said:


> desirous said:
> 
> 
> > supradude said:
> ...


If it makes you feel any better my sig was me spraying Glyphosate in May '18(late spring) and laying seed the same day with 80% KBG/20% PRG, 6 months after seed down. I literally couldn't have done anything more 'wrong' according to the general consensus but there it is..and still is a year later.

That said im in a much more mild climate than you so i wouldnt ever risk spring seeding. Also if i had to do it again i would spray, wait 2 weeks and spray again and seed down after the second spray just to be safe. I was out of the country and was a bit too antsy to get things going, and our summers here are quite mild(a bad really summer is 20-30 days of summer at 95F+) so i know with irrigation it would be fine.


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## supradude (Dec 20, 2018)

I do intend to use glyphosate now, but the reno will be done in three phases over the next few years due to the lawn being so big.

I will likely spray in early August, give it a week, and spray again to ensure all of the K31 is dead. I obviously wish I could do it now, but I know that would just be a waste of money... though I do have to admit it is tempting.


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