# SP's fall reseed 2017



## social port

I've decided to keep a thread on my attempt to reseed this fall. I am pretty clear on my plan and am reasonably confident in a positive outcome. That being said, my first (ever) reseed this spring did not turn out well at all. If I am going to make a colossal mistake during my second reseed, at least I will have the advantage of someone possibly pointing out my mistake before I make it. Plus, we all like pictures, and I plan to take plenty.

Background
This is a new construction lawn that is nearly one year old. The area is almost 20,000 sq feet. No trees. Minimal shade. There is some sloping in the front yard and one side yard. Word in the neighborhood is that it is difficult to get grass to grow on these slopes (I plan to use a very thin layer of Scott's patch master to help the seed stay in place on the slopes).

The lawn had just been seeded when we moved in last September. Growth was minimal for several weeks. I believe it was at least the 2nd or 3rd week before we saw any growth at all. At the time, I was too busy with the move and family stuff to really take care of the new grass-not to mention that I really had no idea where to start at the time. By the winter, the grass had filled in quite a bit.

By March - April 2017, the lawn was thin, but at least I had grass. Here is what it looked like.





Around April I put down granular weed control, but did not get the results that I wanted. I'm pretty sure that I was way, way too light on my application. I then did a lot of homework on turf care. At some point I thought I would take a chance on reseeding. My thinking was that I might be able to thicken the lawn up and help prevent further weed growth. That, and I really felt that my options were limited since I had just put down a weed control product (Liquid herbicide seemed too daunting at the time). After dutifully waiting my 30 interval, I did said reseed with starter fertilizer and regular watering (no pre-emergent). The net effect was voluminous weed growth. I know that I had some germination, but the effort was generally unsuccessful. The weeds, especially crabgrass, took over as much space as possible. As I later learned in TLF, a spring reseed for a cool season grass was a losing plan in any case.

So, I did more homework on turf care. And then some more. Etc, etc. 
I've been spending the summer on the basics-just trying to practice good mowing, correcting poor watering habits, learning the lay of my lawn, practicing edging, measuring sprinkler output, reading through TLF like its a NY best-seller novel, learning how to utilize impact sprinklers to more effectively cover all areas of the yard, doing even more homework, etc. I've applied baby shampoo 3-4 times this summer to alleviate substantial compaction. It has been effective. I've also been trying to eliminate unwanted grass with Ornamec. I had a brief period of fungal infection that went away with improved watering practices. I would have liked to put down some compost, but that's an expensive endeavor with 20ksqft. I have also wanted to level out my yard, but I figure that leveling is better done during a total renovation.
The lawn was looking like this during the summer.





On 8/15 I applied a 15-15-15 fertilizer to encourage weed growth and to address low phosphorous and potassium. On 8/16 I applied a second round of weed-killer (Bayer, WBG, RU) after an initial app around 8/4.
Here's what I am working with at the present time, embarrassing as it is.









I know. I know. Total reno is probably warranted here.

Much of the discoloration and death is from Ornamec. Otherwise, the discoloration/death is from the weed-killing products. 
My next step is to apply glyphosate to some unwanted grass--probably in a matter of days. In another week or so, I may apply glyphosate to whatever weeds are still hanging around.

After that, I'm looking at applications of humic acid and kelp extract, dethatching with a dethatcher (also hoping to loosen the soil here a bit), reseeding, and Scott's fert with mesotrione. I'm still not sure if I will be mowing down gradually or if I will take inches off all at once - and only once. Gradual is usually the recommendation, but I've read of people doing it all at once. I'm worried that if I keep cutting low for a month or so, other vegetation will creep in.

I'm reseeding with TTTF from Bob Hogan. I'm honestly not sure what is currently growing. I see what I believe is KY31 in places (I may end up killing this off), but I also see some grass that is darker and not clumpy. It is possible that the builder used two types of fescue. Some of the darker grass could be from my reseed as well.

I should be set for seed down by 9/17, but I may wait a bit later, depending on temperature.


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## Fronta1

Sp, sounds like you really wanna make this work and are willing to do what it takes to make it happen. Many of us are in similar situations and have had to screw up to learn the right way. Definitely been the case with me. Two thing that jumped out at me were your seeding date and how you intend to address the slopes. I've used that patchmaster before and it isn't gonna do squat for erosion control. Better options are either a germination blanket or tackifier. Personally I prefer tackifier as it's just as effective and doesn't smother the seed. With regards to your seeding date I realize you are in Tennessee and I'm not very sure when it gets cool there but it just seems late to me. Long as you got at least 6 weeks til first frost. But honestly 6 is not great.

I wouldn't worry too much about the 1/3 rule. Breaking it won't kill your grass, especially since you'll be watering so much.

Reseeding is a good opportunity to level with some top soil. But can always do it later with sand.

Good luck


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## social port

During my fungal outbreak in the early spring/summer, I saw what I believed were patches of moss. I began to think that my soil was too alkaline. A cheap ph meter from a big box store confirmed this suspicion. I later sent a soil sample to LL. It turns out that my soil is not alkaline. I got rid of my ph meter. I then addressed the compaction, as it was the likely culprit.

I will place the report below for those who might be interested. I'm hoping that the recent heavy application of 15-15-15 made some headway in bringing those low phosphorous and potassium numbers up, but I'm really winging this part of my efforts. I take great comfort from Ware's dictum that most grasses will do just fine in less than optimal soil (http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=60). Mine is certainly less than optimal, but I'm hoping that it is sufficient for adequate growth. The weeds sure have enjoyed their stay.


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## Fronta1

social port said:


> During my fungal outbreak in the early spring/summer, I saw what I believed were patches of moss. I began to think that my soil was too alkaline. A cheap ph meter from a big box store confirmed this suspicion. I later sent a soil sample to LL. It turns out that my soil is not alkaline. I got rid of my ph meter. I then addressed the compaction, as it was the likely culprit.
> 
> I will place the report below for those who might be interested. I'm hoping that the recent heavy application of 15-15-15 made some headway in bringing those low phosphorous and potassium numbers up, but I'm really winging this part of my efforts. I take great comfort from Ware's dictum that most grasses will do just fine in less than optimal soil (http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=60). Mine is certainly less than optimal, but I'm hoping that it is sufficient for adequate growth. The weeds sure have enjoyed their stay.


Your ph and om are great. With that cec and your compaction issues, definitely assuming you've got some clay. Moss doesn't necessarily prefer a certain acidity as far as I know, I have tons of it and my ph is 6.2. Scott's makes a granular product but rakes up pretty easy. I believe the active ingredient is ferrous ammonium sulfate which is the same thing people use to green up their lawns. Apparently the moss can't handle it. Look into getting some sulfate of potash for your k deficiency. You need about 2lbs/ yr just to maintain so start with 4/yr for this and next year at least.


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## Fronta1

Actually sorry I had my cec's mixed up. That's on the low side so your fert apps may need to be a little more frequent.


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## social port

Thanks, Fronta1



Fronta1 said:


> Long as you got at least 6 weeks til first frost. But honestly 6 is not great.


6 weeks is probably what I will have -- maybe a bit longer. I looked into it a few months ago and targeted the dates when the high temps would be consistently 80 or below. Over the past few weeks, I've been rethinking the mid-late September strategy and was considering moving the seed date up a bit. But I believe that I'm pretty well locked into 9/15-9/17 at this point: Weed killer applied 8/15, with a 30 day wait for seeding.


Fronta1 said:


> Better options are either a germination blanket or tackifier.


Hmm...tackifier would be my preference. Do you have a good source for that?


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## social port

Fronta1 said:


> Look into getting some sulfate of potash for your k deficiency. You need about 2lbs/ yr just to maintain so start with 4/yr for this and next year at least


I could get that down before seeding, right? I never realized how important potassium is. I always thought potassium was added to fertilizer to help granules move farther distances.


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## Fronta1

social port said:


> Thanks, Fronta1
> 
> 
> 
> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Long as you got at least 6 weeks til first frost. But honestly 6 is not great.
> 
> 
> 
> 6 weeks is probably what I will have -- maybe a bit longer. I looked into it a few months ago and targeted the dates when the high temps would be consistently 80 or below. Over the past few weeks, I've been rethinking the mid-late September strategy and was considering moving the seed date up a bit. But I believe that I'm pretty well locked into 9/15-9/17 at this point: Weed killer applied 8/15, with a 30 day wait for seeding.
> 
> 
> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Better options are either a germination blanket or tackifier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hmm...tackifier would be my preference. Do you have a good source for that?
Click to expand...

There are two soluble powder products called turbo tack and witches brew on Amazon. There's also m-binder which is less concentrated and is probably better put down as powder and you would need more of it. If you choose the soluble powder your best off using a watering can as they are too viscous for a backpack sprayer.

Yes you can get that down before seeding. It's salty so water it in. 1# per app.


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## social port

Fronta1 said:


> There are two soluble powder products called turbo tack and witches brew on Amazon. There's also m-binder which is less concentrated and is probably better put down as powder and you would need more of it. If you choose the soluble powder your best off using a watering can as they are too viscous for a backpack sprayer.
> 
> Yes you can get that down before seeding. It's salty so water it in. 1# per app.


Roger that. Thank you.


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## social port

Noticed that my grass was dry yesterday. Little rainfall during the past week -- plus a stout dose of fertilizer...yeah, it was time for a nice soaking. I aimed for .75 inches.

Got up early this morning to apply glyphosate to some unwanted grass that survived earlier Ornamec applications. I'll need to do a more comprehensive glypho sweep with a backpack sprayer at some point. I didn't have much time this morning. I just wanted to kill as much as possible before my next mow, which is coming soon.

Biggest question this morning is whether or not I post in the 'what did you do to your lawn today' thread now that I am keeping my own reseed thread. Oh, it's tough all right.


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## ericgautier

social port said:


> I'm reseeding with TTTF from Bob Hogan.


I like the TTTF from Hogan. My background TTTF mix is from them. What cultivars are in the mix?


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## social port

ericgautier said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm reseeding with TTTF from Bob Hogan.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the TTTF from Hogan. My background TTTF mix is from them. What cultivars are in the mix?
Click to expand...

I was hoping to acquire speedway, but availability is pretty limited right now. I called the Hogan company several weeks ago to talk about their availability and to discuss the possibility of growing KBG in the region.
I haven't placed an order yet (but likely will in the next few days), but my likely choices are turbo and firecracker. Bullseye, cochise 4, and ls1200 are possible additions.


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## social port

social port said:


> I take great comfort from Ware's dictum that most grasses will do just fine in less than optimal soil (viewtopic.php?f=22&t=60)


Oops. That's not Ware's dictum. That is from Mighty Quinn.

Apologies to MQ.


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## social port

Fronta1 said:


> Yes you can get that down before seeding. It's salty so water it in. 1# per app.


That's 0-0-50. Since it would be best to have a higher potassium concentration when I seed, perhaps I should push the intensity of the initial app to 2 lb/k. Any arguments against this option?


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## Fronta1

social port said:


> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you can get that down before seeding. It's salty so water it in. 1# per app.
> 
> 
> 
> That's 0-0-50. Since it would be best to have a higher potassium concentration when I seed, perhaps I should push the intensity of the initial app to 2 lb/k. Any arguments against this option?
Click to expand...

I think you might be confusing potassium with phosphorus. No, I wouldn't exceed 1#/k. The saltiness means it could burn like nitrogen.


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## social port

Thanks for the feedback.


Fronta1 said:


> I think you might be confusing potassium with phosphorus.


You did recommend addressing the potassium deficiency.


Fronta1 said:


> Look into getting some sulfate of potash for your k deficiency.


I assumed that an optimal potassium concentration would be desirable for seeding??


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## Fronta1

Oh when you said you thought it would be a good idea to have a higher concentration for seeding I though you were confusing it with phosphorus, which is in fact helpful to have in higher concentrations at seeding. Any starter fertilizer will contain a good deal of it. Sorry about the confusion.

Ok, back to your question. Most recommendations I have read say to keep it around 1#/k because of its potential to burn the grass.


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## social port

Next month I want my little babies to have access to all of that glorious NPK that they want.

Thanks, Fronta1; I'll stick to 1 lb/k.


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## social port

Mowed yesterday using my zero-turn and push mower. I used my push mower with a bag attachment so as to catch unwanted grasses that are still lingering.
Did some spot spraying with glyphosate this morning. Also did some blanket glyphosate applications to take care of larger problem areas of weeds and unwanted grasses.
I'm unsatisfied with the results from the two apps of weed killer. By the time I take care of the remaining weeds, I'll be closer to a full reno than a reseed. Not an ideal situation, but that is where I am.


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## social port

Some pics of the damage--and the lack thereof


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## social port

Ordered my seeds today. Bought 100 pounds of fescue. Based on availability I ordered equal parts turbo, cochise iv, and ls 1200. I was originally looking to do a mix of speedway and firecracker, but finding them turned into a task. Supplier (Hogan's) recommended 6 lb/1k for reno areas and 3-5 lb/1k for overseed areas.

I'm happy to finally have the order completed, but I am totally having buyer's panic...for example, why didn't I go with turbo, falcon, and hemi? Eric G's backyard looks amazing. Why in the world didn't I get Monet? What, I'm too good for Bullseye?

Also, I've been rethinking my seeding strategy some. I was planning on using a seed slicer. But I've got bermuda here and there and, I have to assume, some bermuda seeds camping out in the soil. I'm thinking that the seed slicer might spread the bermuda around the yard. A simple raking in of the seed might be the safer option, perhaps with a roller.


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## Fronta1

Embrace imperfection.


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## RockyMtnLawnNut

Fronta1 said:


> Embrace imperfection.


Agreed, and this is the hardest part for me too! I used a slice seeder, but only for dethatching purposes on my lawn. I spread the seed with my rotary, raked lightly with a leaf rake, used a roller, and then watered. I found this worked very well for me. I'm not a warm season guy, so I can't say how well it will work with the bermuda, but I'd give it a shot without the seeder if you're worried about spreading the Bermuda. Other thing you could do is use the seeder as a verticutter, vacuum up the debris from the bermuda, and then follow the process above.


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## ericgautier

social port said:


> I'm happy to finally have the order completed, but I am totally having buyer's panic...


Turbo, cochise iv, and ls 1200 will look good. :thumbup: They are rated high for your area - http://ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_12-9/tf06tn111t.txt


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## Vols_fan08

Wonder why the seeding rate is going down these days on bare areas? You always heard 10lb per thousand, at the very least 8. Now you see 6-8 lb per thou all the time. Are these newer varieties that much thicker and Fuller when they mature?


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## social port

Fronta1 said:


> Embrace imperfection.


That is the wise thing to do when imperfection is the only option. Good point.



RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> Fronta1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Embrace imperfection.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed, and this is the hardest part for me too! I used a slice seeder, but only for dethatching purposes on my lawn. I spread the seed with my rotary, raked lightly with a leaf rake, used a roller, and then watered. I found this worked very well for me. I'm not a warm season guy, so I can't say how well it will work with the bermuda, but I'd give it a shot without the seeder if you're worried about spreading the Bermuda. Other thing you could do is use the seeder as a verticutter, vacuum up the debris from the bermuda, and then follow the process above.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that some warm season folks use a verticutter to enhance bermuda growth. I don't trust my push mower to take care of the debris; it's on the lower end of the quality spectrum. Your seeding effort turned out great, so perhaps it would be safest to follow your route. That gives me a decent germination and minimizes the spreading of warm season grass.



ericgautier said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm happy to finally have the order completed, but I am totally having buyer's panic...
> 
> 
> 
> Turbo, cochise iv, and ls 1200 will look good. :thumbup: They are rated high for your area - http://ntep.org/data/tf06/tf06_12-9/tf06tn111t.txt
Click to expand...

Thanks for the encouragement there. Ultimately, I think I will be happy with them, especially if I can adhere to Fronta1's advice.



Vols_fan08 said:


> Wonder why the seeding rate is going down these days on bare areas? You always heard 10lb per thousand, at the very least 8. Now you see 6-8 lb per thou all the time. Are these newer varieties that much thicker and Fuller when they mature?


I was wondering the same thing. I was expecting to hear at least 8lb for the reno. At the same time, I'd be foolish to argue with the pros at Hogan's. I think that we are maximizing germination rates(less competition) and preventing any possible clumping activity by keeping the seeding that light. I'm not sure if any of my cultivars are considered spreaders, nor am I sure that there is any TTTF worthy of being considered a spreader. I suppose that you and I both will find out soon enough.

Massive rainfall coming through tonight. Hope your area was safe from the tornado. I'm glad that we haven't seeded yet. With the cooler than normal temperatures, I've certainly been tempted a time or two. My weed killing efforts prevented me from doing so.


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## Vols_fan08

Oh yeah it's a real hard rain. Probably gonna compact the soil even more next week when it settles. Lol I've been so tempted to get out there and do it but I know I need to wait. I just want to make sure I've had some rain before I start pulling plugs or this clay will break that thing &#128514;


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## social port

I surveyed my lawn the other day. I noticed some very nice grass growing here and there, especially in my front lawn. Unfortunately, there were grassy weeds intermixed, and far too many at that.
Most of my backyard is now brown due to weed death.
I made an informed, but somewhat spur-of-the-moment, decision to apply glyphosate to the majority of my lawn. About 17000 sqft of my lawn will be dead by my seeding date. 
That was not the plan, but it really made the most sense. It did not feel good to kill good grass.

So...the updated plan is at least one more glyphosate app. I need to get some potassium in the soil soon. I've also got some baby shampoo, kelp extract, and humic acid to add--possibly repeat apps. 
I'm thinking about putting down another round of 15-15-15. Why? To push growth out of what is left that needs to die, to get more phosphorous in the soil (I am deficient), and to partially address the low potassium. I already have the fertilizer. My only concern is that I might have too much nitrogen in the soil if I put a pound or so down now, and then in two weeks or so, I put down that Scott's fertilizer 21-22-5 with mesotrione.

I've gotta work on the lawn as much as possible over the next two weeks.


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## social port

El pictures


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## Fronta1

:thumbsup:


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## social port

Got a high concentration of baby shampoo into my side yard this evening; that particular part of my yard has become harder (more compacted) over the last couple of weeks. I'm noticing a lot of small rocks there as well now that the grass and weeds are dying. Is there a convenient way to collect a thousand or so small rocks?
Got my kelp and humic acid on standby for tomorrow, time permitting.

After thinking more about it today, I think I'm going to use the 15-15-15 at .5lb per k rather than a full pound. That should make for a pretty safe bet that the nitrogen concentration won't be too high at seed down.

Ordered some tackifier last night. It looks like I ordered enough to cover an acre. I'm wondering if the tackifier could be substituted for peat moss. The tackifier (powder) seems like it would be much easier to disperse.

Gotta go on the hunt for potash of sulphate at my local co-ops on Friday.


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Ordered some tackifier last night. It looks like I ordered enough to cover an acre. I'm wondering if the tackifier could be substituted for peat moss. The tackifier (powder) seems like it would be much easier to disperse.


I used the powder tackifier. It wasn't super easy to spread. Not sure how you plan on spreading it but I used my Earthway 2170 and I had to bounce it to get the tackifier to come out. And I had it nearly wide open. It did work though as I had a heavy rain but only a few small wash out areas. I still used peat moss and it has helped hold moisture quite nicely.


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## monty

social port said:


> Got a high concentration of baby shampoo into my side yard this evening;
> Got my kelp and humic acid on standby for tomorrow, time permitting.


Why not put both down at the same time in same tank?


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ordered some tackifier last night. It looks like I ordered enough to cover an acre. I'm wondering if the tackifier could be substituted for peat moss. The tackifier (powder) seems like it would be much easier to disperse.
> 
> 
> 
> I used the powder tackifier. It wasn't super easy to spread. Not sure how you plan on spreading it but I used my Earthway 2170 and I had to bounce it to get the tackifier to come out. And I had it nearly wide open. It did work though as I had a heavy rain but only a few small wash out areas. I still used peat moss and it has helped hold moisture quite nicely.
Click to expand...

Oh yeah...I'm now remembering that from your thread. Bit of a messy application, I'm guessing.
Thanks for the heads-up here. It sounds like a tackifier is not a good substitute for peat moss.
I'm not sure how I will apply it. I plan to read the directions if there are any and then closely look over the substance to see what makes the most sense.



monty said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Got a high concentration of baby shampoo into my side yard this evening;
> Got my kelp and humic acid on standby for tomorrow, time permitting.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not put both down at the same time in same tank?
Click to expand...

That would be the efficient thing to do. I use a tank sprayer for herbicides. I use a hose-end sprayer for the enhancing agents. My hose-end sprayer does not hold enough product to combine all three. In addition, I'd be concerned about getting down an equal distribution of all three for any given area.


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## Vols_fan08

SP I couldn't find myself spending money on peat moss and tackifier and all that stuff. I feel like if the seed is in the dirt and not laying on top of the soil it'll do what nature intends if kept moist. I tend to agree with Pete with GCI turf. Seed belongs in the dirt. I may not have the success you do but it should be interesting. I wouldn't stress too much with all that extra throw down stuff tho. jMO. Next weekend baby here we come!


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## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> SP I couldn't find myself spending money on peat moss and tackifier and all that stuff


The time and the energy as well. It's no joke.


Vols_fan08 said:


> I feel like if the seed is in the dirt and not laying on top of the soil it'll do what nature intends if kept moist.


I think that is very reasonable, and that is the direction my thinking tends to go. Back in mid summer, I did some 'soft testing' with some seed. Comparing seed mixed with dirt and peat moss vs seed mixed with dirt only, I found much higher rates of germination in seed plus dirt and peat moss. The conditions for comparing them were not perfect, so the different rates of germination could be due to other factors. But there are plenty of people reporting high yield with the addition of peat moss. 


Vols_fan08 said:


> I tend to agree with Pete with GCI turf.


You are in very good company there--along with many farmers. 


Vols_fan08 said:


> I wouldn't stress too much


Probably the best advice in the thread, along with "embrace imperfection." It's just grass, after all. 


Vols_fan08 said:


> Next weekend baby here we come!


You're probably gonna be a couple of days ahead of me because I'm on a 30-day waiting period due to the weed killer I used. Labor day would have been a good seed date for us. The weather has been ideal this week. I saw towns with lows in the 40s this week. Are you kidding me?!


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## Vols_fan08

Yeah started getting s little worried about how cold early September is this year. Easy soil temps...


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## social port

Provided a nice dose of shampoo for the rest of my yard today. I also was able to get down healthy doses of kelp and humic acid. Had a mishap with the kelp and humic acid app on part of the yard: My sprayer got off-kilter somehow, and I ended up putting down enough kelp and HA for 10ksqft in about a 2,500 sqft area. Once I realized what was happening, I watered the stuff in as much as I could. Smells a bit fishy there now.

I wasn't able to find any sulfate of potash. I should have ordered it last week. A 6-20-20 fertilizer was the best I could do. That's not terrible, as I need the phosphorous anyway. I may drop a full pound of it tomorrow since the N in that fertilizer is on the low side.
I'm also planning for another glyphosate app before Tuesday.


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## social port

Put down a little over 3/4 lb. of potassium and phosphorous today. Then I watered every square inch of the yard until soaked. Also did some 'soil transplanting' -- trying to take care of uneven areas here and there. There are really too many places where the ground is not level, but I'm feeling pretty limited in addressing the issue comprehensively without brining in some extra dirt. That's just not going to happen this season.

I wanted to make another glyphosate app tomorrow morning, but I'm not sure that I will have enough time.

I looked at scheduling today. I could safely put my seed down next weekend, but family commitments are going to be high that weekend. The following weekend is completely open for me, so that looks like the better option, even if it brings me nearer to the first frost.

Pictures on the way...


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## social port

Back yard. As my wife says, "It's decimated." To which I always promptly bow.




Obnoxious perhaps, but anytime I use the spreader, I leave it out in the yard all day, usually in a conspicuous way. Expression of savagery. 
BTW, I didn't miss the grass there with a glyphosate app. I just decided to leave that part alone.


Back Yard. The grass near the house is beautiful. It was thick and healthy this spring and summer. Only towards the last month did it have weeds and other issues. I've left as much as I could of it.


Some warm season grass struggling for air. I've lost track of how many times I've tried to kill this patch. One can't help but be impressed by the vigor and resilience.



Front yard here is a different story. There is some nice grass growing here. I'm letting it get really long, though I'm starting to question the wisdom of that.




But the vast majority of the front yard is equally "decimated" -- or at least on its way.



My most recent phosphorous-potassium heavy fertilizer


Oooooh, and my grass seed. Bag #2 is still in the shipping box. There are a couple of things sexier than a bag of grass seed...but not many.


Not sod quality. Not a dealbreaker. But I'm slightly miffed about this. I asked them if the seed was sod quality: "Yes, we sell to sod farmers all the time." Foolish of me to treat that as an adequate response.
But again, sod quality schmod quality.


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## social port

Wow. No post for seven days, and my thread is way, way back on the third page. Seems like things have been booming here in the cool season paradise forum.
Today was rock day. I made a college effort to collect the masses of small rocks and concrete chips scattered here and there. I ended up using a thatch rake to put them in piles, then I just used the old five-finger scoop to dump them in bags.

I also took out some rather large rocks. Pictures to follow.

My soil seems to have liked my recent apps of baby shampoo, kelp extract, and humic acid. The long screwdriver is going down like the soil is butter. I'm really liking what I am seeing here.

I've got a (probably) final glyphosate app coming up tomorrow. Then things are gonna get serious. Seed down next weekend.

I'm so tempted to put another .5-1 pound of phosphorous and potassium down in the next day or two. Given that I put down 3/4 pound 11 days ago and that I will be putting over a pound down next week, I think this extra app I want to do would be pushing things too much. At the same time, I'm open to having my mind changed


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## social port

Here they are. My wonderful specimens. These things came up like pancakes with a shovel--thanks to my happy soil. 
Left these puppies in the driveway. I'm not yet sure what I'm going to do with them. (vols fan mentioned something about a weighted thatch rake...haha). My wife is really going to enjoy seeing these sitting in the driveway tomorrow morning.


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## LawnNerd

You should make something like they did for the 2010 winter Olympics. Put it somewhere it over looks your yard. :lol:


----------



## Virginiagal

Just now reading some of this thread. There was some confusion on rate for SOP. You asked about using 2 lb/k since it was 0-0-50. The answer you got was to keep it to 1 lb/k. Using 2 lb/k of SOP will get you 1 lb/k of potassium. It is best to keep nutrients at 1 lb/k or less per month. I think the confusion was over 1 lb/k of what: the product or the nutrient? You divide the fertilizer N or P or K number into 100 and that will give you the number of lb/k to supply 1 lb/k of the nutrient. For your 6-20-20 fertiizer, using 5 lb/k of it will get you 0.3 lb/k of N, 1 lb/k of P and 1 lb/k of K.

Since your CEC is on the low side (low but not terrible), your soil does not hold onto nutrients too well, so it's better to do more frequent applications at lower rates. Twice a month at half rate is better than once a month at full rate. Organic feedings are beneficial since you rely more on the soil life to retain nutrients rather than the soil itself. In general slow release is better for you than fast release. Adding a lot of one thing can cause you to lose other things, creating imbalances (think of musical chairs and there being more kids and just a few chairs). Organic matter can help raise CEC but don't expect anything dramatic. Do some reading on CEC: you may find it fascinating.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> You should make something like they did for the 2010 winter Olympics. Put it somewhere it over looks your yard. :lol:


I think that is pretty awesome and am actually tempted to do something like that. The only problem is that an imposing, quasi-spiritual rock formation probably won't look right in the middle of suburbia (say, in between my grille and my neighbor's 
hot tub :lol: )


----------



## social port

Thanks for commenting, Virginiagal. It's always nice to hear your input.


Virginiagal said:


> I think the confusion was over 1 lb/k of what: the product or the nutrient?


Yes, I think that is a distinction that one can easily lose track of. In this case, I was referring to nutrients and was assuming 1 lb/k of nutrient rather than of product.


Virginiagal said:


> It is best to keep nutrients at 1 lb/k or less per month.


Ok, that is a clear vote against putting an extra dose of P and K in between now and seed-down next weekend.


Virginiagal said:


> Adding a lot of one thing can cause you to lose other things, creating imbalances (think of musical chairs and there being more kids and just a few chairs)


Really nice to have this insight. It helps me remember that soil activity operates like a complex, dynamic system--everything is in relation to everything else. 
Also, I was thinking that I might get away with a heavy-handed dose of P and K right now because most of my grass is dead. That was assuming, of course, that doses above 1 lb per month are not recommended so as to protect grass. However, what you are pointing out is that it is the soil that shouldn't get more than 1 lb per month because exceeding this dosage could compromise the composition of other nutrients, pH, etc. There is too much risk for creating an imbalance.


Virginiagal said:


> You divide the fertilizer N or P or K number into 100 and that will give you the number of lb/k to supply 1 lb/k of the nutrient


That's a convenient way to make the calculation. I've been using a method that is very cumbersome. Thanks for suggesting this alternative.


Virginiagal said:


> Organic feedings are beneficial since you rely more on the soil life to retain nutrients rather than the soil itself


Yes, I've been wanting to add compost. That's the strongest option for improving CEC, wouldn't you say? Doing so is very costly with 20k sq ft. I've put down Milorganite this year, but my need for P and K makes Milo a less attractive option. Perhaps going forward I could do a blend of Milo and a low nitrogen, high P and K synthetic. I've been leaving my grass clippings, too. I saw a few earthworms last week. I didn't see any last year, so I figure that I am making some progress. 


Virginiagal said:


> Since your CEC is on the low side (low but not terrible), your soil does not hold onto nutrients too well, so it's better to do more frequent applications at lower rates.


That would suggest that it would be more beneficial to use a half rate of starter fertilizer at seed down and then follow up with a half rate two weeks later (as opposed to doing a full dose at seed down and a second full dose one month later).
That should give me optimal results based on my soil's ability to retain the NPK from the fertilizer, right?
If so, there is one additional concern: I'm using starter fertilizer with mesotrione in it. If I do a split dose of NPK twice per month, will that give me an effective dose of mesotrione at both application times?


----------



## social port

I did another application of glyphosate yesterday. The vast majority of what should be dead sure does look dead. I have had a lot of green onion growth over the past week, so I had to get that under control. There is still some dallisgrass hanging on here and there. And I've still got some warm season grass wanting to come in. Chances are that I'm going to have a bit of spot-spraying to do before next weekend.

I've also ordered 20 more pounds of seed since I've killed more of my lawn than I was originally planning.

The temps next weekend are projected to be in the upper 80s. That is not at all what I wanted. The high temperature should not exceed 80 based on historical averages. Delaying seeding is a reasonable suggestion, but then all the worry would be about when the first frost is coming.


----------



## LawnNerd

If youre using starter with mesotrione, that will be your basis and guiding factor. Spoon feeding p & k at 2 weeks won't harm your grass babies, spoon feeding tenacity will.


----------



## Virginiagal

I agree with LawnNerd. Do not add more mesotrione to young seedlings. Read the bag. It should have directions on when followup applications are safe. I was just talking about fertilization in general. Do a full application when seeding. Some may leach away, so be it. You don't want the herbicide again until safe and for that matter you don't want to walk on your seedlings more than necessary.

Besides Milorganite you can use grains as organic feedings. Compost isn't really a feeding. I've used alfalfa pellets (rabbit food) and cracked corn and cornmeal. There is also soybean meal and cottonseed meal, if you can find it. All of them have some NPK. I suggest it because it's slow release and it's retained by the soil life. You're not depending upon the cation sites. The weather must be warm so the soil life is active. Milorganite has a good supply of phosphorus. If you find sulfate of potassium (0-0-50), you could use that as a potassium source since Milorganite doesn't have much potassium. Organic matter (other than organic fertilizer) is always good. The easiest way to get some is mow your leaves in the fall, leaving them on the lawn chopped into bits. After you mow yours, bring over leaves neighbors leave on the street and mow them in too. Leaving clippings is good. Besides compost, you might find a source of sawdust.

What was the depth of soil you reported on the soil test? I could do a little more analysis on the test but I would need to know the depth to convert lb/ac to ppm (Logan reports lb/ac for whatever depth is reported).


----------



## Virginiagal

Don't delay your seeding. You'll be watering. The seeds will be fine. You want as much growing time as possible during these golden months of September and October before everything slows down.


----------



## g-man

^ as always, sound advice from virginagal. Don't delay the seeding. The weather might turn cold next week and you would have missed another week. Follow the general seeding time from a university close to you (UT?).


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> If youre using starter with mesotrione, that will be your basis and guiding factor. Spoon feeding p & k at 2 weeks won't harm your grass babies, spoon feeding tenacity will.


That just illustrates how much room for error there is in this lawn care craft. The only possible downside I could imagine was that a half-rate app of mesotrione wouldn't be an effective rate and would therefore be virtually useless. It never occurred to me that smaller doses at a higher frequency would be detrimental.



Virginiagal said:


> I was just talking about fertilization in general.


Roger that. My tendency is to extrapolate, which usually isn't the wisest thing to do.



Virginiagal said:


> and for that matter you don't want to walk on your seedlings more than necessary.


Yeah, I didn't even think about that entailment in my suggestion. Good point.



Virginiagal said:


> Compost isn't really a feeding.


Looks like I need to do some more reading about the benefits of compost.



Virginiagal said:


> I've used alfalfa pellets (rabbit food) and cracked corn and cornmeal. There is also soybean meal and cottonseed meal, if you can find it.


Next spring, I may have some warm season grass trying to make a return. Because of that threat, I was considering holding off fertilization until fall (not sure about this yet. I haven't thought it through or done enough research). Perhaps I could try using some of the 'foods' you suggest to work on the soil during the spring. Doing so would make my soil healthier without giving a large nitrogen boost to any lurking warm season grass during its optimal growing period.



Virginiagal said:


> What was the depth of soil you reported on the soil test? I could do a little more analysis on the test but I would need to know the depth to convert lb/ac to ppm (Logan reports lb/ac for whatever depth is reported).


That is very generous. I took about 15 or so samples from as close to 3 inches as I could.


----------



## social port

Virginiagal said:


> Don't delay your seeding. You'll be watering. The seeds will be fine. You want as much growing time as possible during these golden months of September and October before everything slows down.





g-man said:


> ^ as always, sound advice from virginagal. Don't delay the seeding. The weather might turn cold next week and you would have missed another week. Follow the general seeding time from a university close to you (UT?).


Thanks to both of you. Message received. The pros in the area went to work with their seeding efforts this past weekend. I'll be a week behind, but it really couldn't be avoided.
High 80s or not, my seeds are going down :thumbup:


----------



## Virginiagal

At soil depth of 3 inches, lb/ac=ppm. Calcium should be >750 ppm and you have 937, so no calcium needed. Your pH is spot on too, so avoid lime. Magnesium should be>140 ppm and you have 97, a shortage of 43. Potassium should be >110 ppm and you have 33, a shortage of 77. These ppm sufficency levels are based on SLAN, whereas Logan calculates shortages according to an "ideal" ratio. For low CEC soils, you could have an ideal ratio but still be short in nutrients. Also Logan is assuming you are amending only the reported depth. That's why their shortages differ from the SLAN figures above.

To amend 6 inches of soil, multiply ppm by 2 to get lb/ac for 6 inches. So your magnesium shortage is 86 lb/ac, which is 2 lb/k. Your potassium shortage is 154 lb/ac, which is 3.5 lb/k. What amount of product would make up the shortage? Magnesium often comes in magnesium sulfate form which is about 10% magnesium. You would need 20 lb/k of something with 10% magnesium. Potassium comes in K2O form. The K in NPK is actually K2O (potash), which is about 83% potassium. So to make up a 3.5 lb/k shortage, you would need 4.2 lb/k of potash (the K in NPK).

You have 16 ppm of P2O5, which is 7 ppm of P. It should be >50 ppm, so your shortage is 43 ppm. Amending 6 inches, your shortage is 86 lb/ac or 2 lb/k. It will take 4.5 lb/k of P2O5 (the form phosphorus comes in).

Boron is very low, manganese is high. Since your soil is not acidic,, the manganese is probably not a problem. It would be good to add a teensy bit of boron. You can mix 5 tablespoon of Borax (laundry powder) for each 1000 square feet with Milorganite, mist it so it sticks to the Milorganite, and spread it that way. So if you were spreading a bag of Milorganite over 2500 square feet, use 12.5 tablespoons for that 2500 square feet.

For the things you're short in, think of that as a yearly project and you're making up the shortages over a year. With a shortage in both magnesium and potassium, KMag or Sul-Po-Mag could be a good choice to supply both magnesium and potassium. It has no nitrogen, so you can use it without stimulating growth at inappropriate times. You want to do small amounts at a time, like half what the bag suggests.

Most of your nitrogen fertilization should be in the fall. Non nitrogen products can be used spring through fall.


----------



## Ridgerunner

Edit to the Edit: Nevermind.


----------



## Virginiagal

Come on, Ridgerunner. I was hoping you'd chime in. What caught your attention?


----------



## Ridgerunner

Nothing really. This is what I edited out:


> I took about 15 or so samples from as close to 3 inches as I could.


What VG needs to know is what depth did you report to Logan? Specifically, what depth does the Logan report show as the depth?
Edit: appears I'm a couple of minutes too late. 

Carry on.


----------



## Virginiagal

Yes, that's what I needed to know: what was reported. I assume you reported 3 inches. If you reported something different, that changes the figures. Logan assumes if you report 3 inches, you included soil from 0-3 and that's the total amount of soil you wish to amend. Most times, no matter what depth you reported, you generally want to amend 6 inches worth of soil, so you adjust.


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## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> What VG needs to know is what depth did you report to Logan?


One and the same. I took from 3 inches and reported 3 inches. The Logan analysis assumed 3 inches.



Virginiagal said:


> You have 16 ppm of P2O5, which is 7 ppm of P. It should be >50 ppm, so your shortage is 43 ppm. Amending 6 inches, your shortage is 86 lb/ac or 2 lb/k. It will take 4.5 lb/k of P2O5 (the form phosphorus comes in).


This was especially concerning to me. I didn't have the specifics to think with, but I knew that I had a substantial P deficiency.

The starter fertilizer seemed like a good option for me, even if it did come with more nitrogen than I was looking for. Starter fertilizer can provide a nice dose of P and K. Outside of that, I wasn't sure how to amend the P deficiency.

I didn't know about the magnesium shortage. KMag looks like a better option than SOP.

Thank you for providing this analysis. This gives me a lot to learn and consider, and it is really, really helpful. I'd better draw up some plans for spring.

So I can assume that applications of Boron, Magnesium, and Potassium will not encourage growth in a warm season grass during the springtime? I know that you mentioned using non-N products in the spring, but I want to be crystal clear. I've spent so much time and money working towards a fescue-only lawn this past year.


----------



## Virginiagal

All nutrients encourage growth in various ways. Nitrogen is the speed demon of top growth.


----------



## Virginiagal

For tttf, U of Tennessee recommends 1/2 lb/k of nitrogen March 15 and April 15, then 1 lb/k Sept. 1, Oct. 1, Nov. 15.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/documents/PB1576.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiNh5Ty57PWAhULOiYKHXmzBBcQFgg_MAM&usg=AFQjCNHF8mP6N7_zGeR23CPYYTgTUPRSYw


----------



## social port

Virginiagal said:


> All nutrients encourage growth in various ways. Nitrogen is the speed demon of top growth.


That makes sense. Then I am inclined to wait until next fall to make the amendments. I want to do as much as I can to minimize growth of warm season grass next spring and summer.



Virginiagal said:


> For tttf, U of Tennessee recommends 1/2 lb/k of nitrogen March 15 and April 15, then 1 lb/k Sept. 1, Oct. 1, Nov. 15.
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/documents/PB1576.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiNh5Ty57PWAhULOiYKHXmzBBcQFgg_MAM&usg=AFQjCNHF8mP6N7_zGeR23CPYYTgTUPRSYw


That schedule is much more aligned with what I would prefer to do. Following it would keep my fescue healthier next summer and would give me ample opportunity to improve the soil. However, I don't want to encourage warm season grass growth in any way. I wonder if a reasonable compromise would be to apply 1 lb/k every three weeks starting in September. That could compensate for the lack of N in the spring while also address my need for more frequent feedings.


----------



## Virginiagal

You should do frequent feedings at small amounts. Instead of 1 lb/k a month, do 1/2 lb/k every two weeks. Or you can do 1/2 lb/k every three weeks and start the fall feedings in August. If you do 1 lb/k at a time, there's a good chance it will leach instead of being used. It can also knock other stuff off cation sites. Do a little at a time anytime you apply something. You should do amendments in the spring too. You do want the fescue to have the best nutrition, don't you? Is there something you can use on Bermuda to kill it without killing fescue? Maybe do that in the spring. I can think of the Roundup sticks that you put on like a glue stick. Maybe there's something else. Mow at a high height since Bermuda likes a low cutting height.

Some other choices for your fertilizer: a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10 will give you nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Starter fertilizer will give you nitrogen and phosphorus and a little bit of potassium. You could do starter fertilizer and KMag. Epsom salts will give you magnesium. You could do balanced fertilizer and Epsom salt. Do not use any kind of lime.


----------



## social port

Virginiagal said:


> You should do frequent feedings at small amounts. Instead of 1 lb/k a month, do 1/2 lb/k every two weeks. Or you can do 1/2 lb/k every three weeks and start the fall feedings in August. If you do 1 lb/k at a time, there's a good chance it will leach instead of being used. It can also knock other stuff off cation sites. Do a little at a time anytime you apply something. You should do amendments in the spring too. You do want the fescue to have the best nutrition, don't you? Is there something you can use on Bermuda to kill it without killing fescue? Maybe do that in the spring. I can think of the Roundup sticks that you put on like a glue stick. Maybe there's something else. Mow at a high height since Bermuda likes a low cutting height.
> 
> Some other choices for your fertilizer: a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10 will give you nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Starter fertilizer will give you nitrogen and phosphorus and a little bit of potassium. You could do starter fertilizer and KMag. Epsom salts will give you magnesium. You could do balanced fertilizer and Epsom salt. Do not use any kind of lime.


Man, you are really laying things out for me. Thank you. This level of help is so very generous.



Virginiagal said:


> You should do frequent feedings at small amounts.


This will be my guiding principle next year.



Virginiagal said:


> You should do amendments in the spring too. You do want the fescue to have the best nutrition, don't you?


Yes. However, at this point I would rather my fescue take a hit than have warm season grass return in full force. I may warm up to other options, but that is where I am right now.



Virginiagal said:


> Is there something you can use on Bermuda to kill it without killing fescue? Maybe do that in the spring. I can think of the Roundup sticks that you put on like a glue stick. Maybe there's something else.


Yes, Ornamec and Pylex are the two best options, with Pylex being a bit kinder to fescue, especially in warmer temps. I've been using Ornamec regularly this summer. Roundup sticks seem like a more appealing option at the present time. You're making me imagine a world in which I can effectively manage spring fertilization and warm season grass growth.



Virginiagal said:


> Mow at a high height since Bermuda likes a low cutting height.


That's another method I have been using. Everything counts in small amounts, though. I'm pretty sure it would grow in crude oil. I'll trade for your brown patch issues 



Virginiagal said:


> Some other choices for your fertilizer: a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10 will give you nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. Starter fertilizer will give you nitrogen and phosphorus and a little bit of potassium. You could do starter fertilizer and KMag. Epsom salts will give you magnesium. You could do balanced fertilizer and Epsom salt. Do not use any kind of lime.


Nice. But then, where is the space for Milorganite? Perhaps Milo (instead of starter fert) and Kmag for one or two applications? That would also give me a chance to add the Boron (by mixing it with Milo).


----------



## Virginiagal

Yes, Milorganite can sub for starter. The Milorganite around here is 5-4-0.


----------



## social port

Had to rent a dethatcher since my mower doesn't cut low enough to remove all of the dead weeds and grass.

It is dethatching day for me. After dethatching, I'm going to mow and rake up what I can. After that, I'm giving a lite app of baby shampoo and humid acid.

Tomorrow is seed down day. Seed, fert, peat, tackifier (where needed), possibly seed roller. I also purchased some hydretain to help out if I run into watering issues.


----------



## vnephologist

Hey social port, been following and remember you mentioned putting down TTTF from Hogan. I was curious which cultivars. Any idea?


----------



## social port

vnephologist said:


> Hey social port, been following and remember you mentioned putting down TTTF from Hogan. I was curious which cultivars. Any idea?


Turbo, ls 1200, and conchise iv, equally divided. It is considered a custom blend, though they do have standard blends (the Hogan Blend), which contain comparable cultivars.


----------



## vnephologist

Awesome. Any chance since you're just getting seed down that you'd be interested in any Gravity PGS? It should arrive on Wednesday and I could turn around to you on Thursday. If so, shoot me a PM.


----------



## pennstater2005

Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?


Thanks. It is a powder. Small bottle that covers a full acre. I'm tempted to put it all over my yard, but I don't want to be wasteful. I'm not sure that there would be any benefit in doing that.


----------



## social port

It got dark outside before I could completely finish. I will have to finish mowing/taking up dead weeds and put down last soil apps early in the morning. Then, it will be time to seed.

Luckily I snapped some photos of the side yard and backyard this afternoon,


----------



## Vols_fan08

Is that the dead Bermuda? The brown sticks.Or hopefully dead.. lol


----------



## social port

Also, I was pretty surprised to see some green in a few of the Bermuda runners. If I have time, I'm going to hit a few spots with glyphosate before I put my seed down. That's not consistent with label directions, but folks do sometimes use glyphosate when they seed, right?
I don't know that glyphosate will do much for the runners, but I saw small patches of grass here and there.


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> Is that the dead Bermuda? The brown sticks.Or hopefully dead.. lol


Yes, that is Bermuda, mostly anyway. Those runners were still kicking even after a deep dethatching.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> ... I'm going to hit a few spots with glyphosate before I put my seed down. That's not consistent with label directions, but folks do sometimes use glyphosate when they seed, right?


Yes, you'll be fine to apply glyphosate in the morning and then seed a few hours later. We've done that numerous times successfully.


----------



## social port

ken-n-nancy said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I'm going to hit a few spots with glyphosate before I put my seed down. That's not consistent with label directions, but folks do sometimes use glyphosate when they seed, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you'll be fine to apply glyphosate in the morning and then seed a few hours later. We've done that numerous times successfully.
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming. I'm on my way to hit them now :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Had a good night's sleep.

Seed down day. Here we go. :yahoo:


----------



## social port

Sprayed some glyphosate. Raked the front and side yard. Mowed the entire front yard, one side yard, and half of back to continue to get the dirt exposed. Defined a clear property line with my mower. Applied hydretain to part of lawn. Watered it in. 
On a lunch break. 
Pictures are from a couple of hours ago


----------



## pennstater2005

Can't wait to see some pics :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Ran out of time...again

No fert, no pre-m, no seed roller, no tackifier.

But seed is down, though not really raked in.

What is the best thing to do here? Water tonight and resume on the morning, or skip watering tonight and then resume in the morning?


----------



## pennstater2005

I think it would be fine either way. I would wait until morning when it was finished and everything else was applied.


----------



## social port

Lifesaver. Thanks. I can't believe that, with all the preparation and planning I did, I was in a position where I felt clueless. That's the real world for you. Awesome that I got nearly immediate feedback at TLF.

Anyone have any thoughts on watering and using a seed roller? What is best practice? Water, then roll, or roll then water?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on watering and using a seed roller? What is best practice? Water, then roll, or roll then water?


Having the soil be sufficiently dry to use the seed roller is a bit of a challenge, actually. If the soil is moderately moist, the soil will _*stick to the roller*_ which will make a fair bit of a mess and lift up and respread some of the seed. Generally, I find that the roller causes less trouble if the soil is mostly dry when rolling.


----------



## social port

Grass bling, anyone?












Down on the ground













No longer on the ground


----------



## social port

ken-n-nancy said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have any thoughts on watering and using a seed roller? What is best practice? Water, then roll, or roll then water?
> 
> 
> 
> Having the soil be sufficiently dry to use the seed roller is a bit of a challenge, actually. If the soil is moderately moist, the soil will _*stick to the roller*_ which will make a fair bit of a mess and lift up and respread some of the seed. Generally, I find that the roller causes less trouble if the soil is mostly dry when rolling.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I was wondering if that might happen. I'm new to rolling, so I don't really know what everything looks like. I also wondered if the roller might pick up quite a bit of my seed. I really don't want it moved much.
Perhaps I should just skip rolling and concentrate on a good raking instead. There is no way my soil is drying out tomorrow.


----------



## GrassDaddy

Don't stress it too much, people grow grass by throwing seed down and walking away. All these tips are to increase results but if you do it a little different than planned it'll be fine ;-)


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?


Per the instructions, it is meant to be used in a hydroseeding system. The powder is apparently dissolved in water and then sprayed. I'm having reservations about using it now.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?
> 
> 
> 
> Per the instructions, it is meant to be used in a hydroseeding system. The powder is apparently dissolved in water and then sprayed. I'm having reservations about using it now.
Click to expand...

That is different from the tackifier I used. Mine was a powder as well but I put it in the spreader and got nice even coverage. It was the last thing I applied before I watered everything in. It did work as I had a heavy downpour a few days after I seeded and it prevented any serious washouts. It was a pain to spread as I had to continually bounce the spreader as I walked to get it to come out. I would consider spraying it as your last thing you do if you have any concerns of washouts.


----------



## Vols_fan08

You know.. we've had all this rain this year. Now I see there's no rain in sight for the next 10 days. Why does this happen in the fall when we seed...!!?? Grrrrrr&#128122;


----------



## social port

Finished up last night at around 9:30. 
I'm glad that I had a three-day weekend. The reseed/reno took 36 hours of it.

I ended up using the seed roller, and I'm really glad that I did. Outside of any effect that it had on seed to soil contact, I think i enjoyed pulling that roller around more than anything else that I did.



Vols_fan08 said:


> Now I see there's no rain in sight for the next 10 days.


Right now, I'd rather be rain-free than have a major downpour.



pennstater2005 said:


> That is different from the tackifier I used. Mine was a powder as well but I put it in the spreader and got nice even coverage. It was the last thing I applied before I watered everything in. It did work as I had a heavy downpour a few days after I seeded and it prevented any serious washouts. It was a pain to spread as I had to continually bounce the spreader as I walked to get it to come out. I would consider spraying it as your last thing you do if you have any concerns of washouts.


You convinced me to use the tackifier, but I wasn't able to apply it last night. I agree with you that it would be wise to get it down.


----------



## social port

Some pics from the watering stage.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?


Finally got the tackifier applied the other day.
You know that scene in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation where Clark W Griswold is spreading some kind of fluid on the metal disk before taking off at light speed down a hill to wind up in a Wal-Mart parking lot? I'm pretty sure that he was using the stuff I put on my lawn.
That stuff is amazing. It is absolutely holding everything together, and I even suspect that it is keeping the soil more moist than areas without the application.
If I had another two hours, I would have put the tackifier on my whole lawn. The application was very easy: It required a simple ratio of 1 oz/1k Sq ft. I used a hose-end sprayer, and it worked beautifully. No powder ingestion.


----------



## social port

Also, I've been busy making a solution for my watering problem. http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1282

TLF to the rescue on that one :nod:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck! I'll be curious to know how you like the tackifier. Is it a powder?
> 
> 
> 
> Finally got the tackifier applied the other day.
> You know that scene in National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation where Clark W Griswold is spreading some kind of fluid on the metal disk before taking off at light speed down a hill to wind up in a Wal-Mart parking lot? I'm pretty sure that he was using the stuff I put on my lawn.
> That stuff is amazing. It is absolutely holding everything together, and I even suspect that it is keeping the soil more moist than areas without the application.
> If I had another two hours, I would have put the tackifier on my whole lawn. The application was very easy: It required a simple ratio of 1 oz/1k Sq ft. I used a hose-end sprayer, and it worked beautifully. No powder ingestion.
Click to expand...

Glad to hear it worked out. Can I ask where you got it from?


----------



## social port

Northern Tool, selling on behalf of Turbo Technologies. 
http://www.turboturf.com/Tackifier.htm
I also had a nice customer support experience with the company.

Good product+good support= :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Ladies and Gentlemen, 
We have germination.



Nothing widespread yet, but this is progress!


----------



## social port

When I applied peat moss last week, I did so quickly and in the dark. The coverage is very uneven. 
In these uncovered areas, I can see the seeds.

At this point I am seeing a nice amount of germination. However, there is an obvious pattern: only areas with a nice layer of peat moss have germinated. Areas without peat moss have not germinated.

Am I in trouble here? Should I try to get more peat moss down on bare areas, or are patience and watering the only things I need?

I did use a seed roller, but it pushed the seeds into the soil only so much.


----------



## pennstater2005

I had a couple areas that didn't get much peat. They did OK. If you are worried about it then I would get peat moss and cover those areas. It definitely helps in moisture retention.

By the way.... Nice to some germination!!!


----------



## social port

Thanks, pennstater. 
I wonder if the the peat moss provides something beyond moisture retention. 
Perhaps there is some kind of nutrient boost as well??


----------



## pennstater2005

According the The University of Vermont not a source of nutrients.

http://pss.uvm.edu/ppp/articles/peatcom.html


----------



## social port

That's a nice resource you just linked. It's worth a bookmark.

Huh...I always assumed that peat brought with it a small nitrogen boost.


----------



## social port

Day 8 
I could not see any dew this morning. The air is so dry right now. This is such a change after a humid summer.

I thought it would be coming up more evenly than this. 
I thought I might be watering too much (4-5 x day), but as I look over the lawn, the most saturated areas have the highest concentration of germination.

The tall, green areas in a few of the pictures are leftover grass and weeds.


----------



## pennstater2005

^ 4-5x daily doesn't seem too much considering how dry it's been. How long have you been watering each time? Eight days is early. Give it time I think you'll be fine.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> ^ 4-5x daily doesn't seem too much considering how dry it's been. How long have you been watering each time? Eight days is early. Give it time I think you'll be fine.


That's what my wife keeps telling me :lol:

My watering times vary, but it is typically 10-15 per 3000 sq ft or so.
I try to keep things moist rather than really wet, but I those seeds seem to prefer the latter.

Ooooh, check this out


You usually read about the whitening effect of Tenacity. I'm assuming the color in the picture is from the Tenacity I used: but it is white and maroon in color. Kind of cool-looking.


----------



## pennstater2005

Yeah, that's odd looking. Wonder what the maroon colored stuff is?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Yeah, that's odd looking. Wonder what the maroon colored stuff is?


No idea. The white color makes sense, but the maroon is unexpected. 
I'm sure someone might be able to break it down for us, for curiosity's sake.


----------



## g-man

The purple color has a name that I dont remember. It is a phase in the grow of the seed before it starts to form chloroform (green). If it stays white after a day or so, then it is too much tenacity in that area. I had a similar issue this year in an area I was seeding. I think the rain made the tenacity run to the low points before it was absorb by the clay. My seed did not make it and I had to reseed.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> The purple color has a name that I dont remember. It is a phase in the grow of the seed before it starts to form chloroform (green). If it stays white after a day or so, then it is too much tenacity in that area. I had a similar issue this year in an area I was seeding. I think the rain made the tenacity run to the low points before it was absorb by the clay. My seed did not make it and I had to reseed.


Looks like I'd better get Bob Hogan's number on standby, just in case.


----------



## social port

Intruders in Casa social port's reno.



I have insecticide that I never applied. Also thought about trapping whatever it is. 
I might be able to reach most of the affected areas through the bordering lawn, thereby minimizing walking on the new grass. Not sure yet.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Looks like you might need to visit this thread.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Intruders in Casa social port's reno.
> 
> 
> 
> I have insecticide that I never applied. Also thought about trapping whatever it is.
> I might be able to reach most of the affected areas through the bordering lawn, thereby minimizing walking on the new grass. Not sure yet.


Is it tunneling or just something tearing at the grass? I had chipmunks digging in my new reno. I waited them out and it stopped.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Intruders in Casa social port's reno.
> 
> 
> 
> I have insecticide that I never applied. Also thought about trapping whatever it is.
> I might be able to reach most of the affected areas through the bordering lawn, thereby minimizing walking on the new grass. Not sure yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it tunneling or just something tearing at the grass? I had chipmunks digging in my new reno. I waited them out and it stopped.
Click to expand...

I would love to ride this out, but I don't think I have a choice. The damaged area is growing. I haven't done an up-close inspection, but it looks like tunneling.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> Looks like you might need to visit this thread.


Good call. I didn't know about this thread.


----------



## social port

Pennstater, do you think your chipmunks were after food, or were they just using your lawn as a playground?


----------



## social port

Finally had some dew this morning. It made the baby grass shine a bit.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Pennstater, do you think your chipmunks were after food, or were they just using your lawn as a playground?


Hard to say. But you could see them out there digging frantically. I gave a day or two and they stopped. If they didn't the break barrel was coming out :twisted:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pennstater, do you think your chipmunks were after food, or were they just using your lawn as a playground?
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to say. But you could see them out there digging frantically. I gave a day or two and they stopped. If they didn't the break barrel was coming out :twisted:
Click to expand...

Or the pitchfork. I saw the pic in the mole thread. :lol:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pennstater, do you think your chipmunks were after food, or were they just using your lawn as a playground?
> 
> 
> 
> Hard to say. But you could see them out there digging frantically. I gave a day or two and they stopped. If they didn't the break barrel was coming out :twisted:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Or the pitchfork. I saw the pic in the mole thread. :lol:
Click to expand...

Oh you saw that huh? Stick with the traps


----------



## social port

Tunnels confirmed







Small holes, too



I was going to use insecticide, but i decided that I will trap it. Gonna try to make it to a store tonight . In the meantime, I just pushed the soil back into place. Not sure what that will do, but it seemed like it needed to be done.


----------



## pennstater2005

^ 
Go get em! They can be crazy destructive. What trap are you going to use?


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> I was going to use insecticide, but i decided that I will trap it. Gonna try to make it to a store tonight . In the meantime, I just pushed the soil back into place. Not sure what that will do, but it seemed like it needed to be done.


FWIW, insecticide won't kill rodents. :lol: Pushing the soil back into place will help you identify where the little buggers are running to. You'll be able to identify where the main "highway" is. Look for a straight line, not the zig-zags. That's where they're feeding. You want to find the highway. Then that's where you set the trap. Go check the tunnels a few hours after you pushed them down, and see if they've popped back up. That will give you a timeframe when they're moving back and forth. They eat in the morning and evening, and have a pretty high metabolism. Those buggers can dig up to 18' in an hour.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> ^
> Go get em! They can be crazy destructive. What trap are you going to use?


I'm not sure. It will be a matter of what is available. My neighbor also mentioned a noise emitting device that was effective for them.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to use insecticide, but i decided that I will trap it. Gonna try to make it to a store tonight . In the meantime, I just pushed the soil back into place. Not sure what that will do, but it seemed like it needed to be done.
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, insecticide won't kill rodents. :lol: Pushing the soil back into place will help you identify where the little buggers are running to. You'll be able to identify where the main "highway" is. Look for a straight line, not the zig-zags. That's where they're feeding. You want to find the highway. Then that's where you set the trap. Go check the tunnels a few hours after you pushed them down, and see if they've popped back up. That will give you a timeframe when they're moving back and forth. They eat in the morning and evening, and have a pretty high metabolism. Those buggers can dig up to 18' in an hour.
Click to expand...

Good info here. 
I thought I would take away the food supply with the insecticide, but I was recently clued in to the possibility of increased damage due to desperate searching following removal of a food supply.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Yeah, I had an issue with armadillos digging for grubs, and the grub killer took care of that, but the moles/voles search for earthworms, beetles, grubs, and any type of insect they can find. If you kill off the earthworms, that's going to do more long-term harm than just trapping them.

Then again, you could use your new landscaping blade, and trim all the tunnels short


----------



## social port

Haha...yeah, that crossed my mind.


----------



## social port

Ended up going with these--a solar powered device that emits a noise to drive moles away. I've got three forming a barrier across my backyard.

Unfortunately, it may take seven days for them to leave the area. I hoping that a seven day figure is the exception rather than the rule. I have some poison as well.


----------



## social port

There is a very clear trend in my grass growth. The areas that have been flooded with excess water from my sprinkler are doing great.

Other areas are not so great. I know that ALL areas stay moist because I am watering 4 times per day. For whatever reason, it seems like I need to flood the ground to get optimal growth. Of course, then I have to consider fungus.

I don't understand why I would need to give the seeds so much water. It is contrary to wisdom: moist not wet. For my work here, it is flooded, not moist. It is like they can't get enough water. Notice the full growth in the second picture. That area gets really, really wet when I have my sprinkler on. The area surrounding the intense growth gets wet too--just not as much. And the difference is striking.


----------



## social port

At least I know I am keeping the seed moist. It may take a major rain or two to bring everything else up.


----------



## pennstater2005

I think just stay the course. It looks good. I tried those sonic things but they didn't work for me. Hope they do for you.


----------



## g-man

SP, try to check your ground 10min before the next schedule irrigation time. Go touch it, is it dry or moist? If it is dry you will need to increase your frequency.

I suspect that the areas getting really wet are staying moist until the next cycle (because of the excess water).


----------



## g-man

Also, are impact heads setup in a head to head coverage? Meaning, is there another impact that reaches each head? Impact heads provide water at a distance but not near them. Another head is needed to ensure even coverage.


----------



## vnephologist

g-man said:


> SP, try to check your ground 10min before the next schedule irrigation time. Go touch it, is it dry or moist? If it is dry you will need to increase your frequency.
> 
> I have a suspect that the areas getting really wet are staying moist until the next cycle (because of the excess water).


+1 was exactly my thought


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I think just stay the course. It looks good. I tried those sonic things but they didn't work for me. Hope they do for you.


Those sonic devices would not have been my top pick. I ran out of time yesterday and wasn't able to go to the store myself. My wife swung by the store for me, but she was not wild about the idea of me clubbing trapped moles in the backyard . :dunno:



g-man said:


> SP, try to check your ground 10min before the next schedule irrigation time. Go touch it, is it dry or moist? If it is dry you will need to increase your frequency.
> 
> I have a suspect that the areas getting really wet are staying moist until the next cycle (because of the excess water).


The soil is not dry, but I would not call it wet. Faintly moist, perhaps? It leaves a slight trace of moisture on my fingers.

With an adjustment to my watering schedule, I'm going to be running 5-6 cycles per day. :lol: 
Sinclair can get _bluegrass _to germinate at twice per day. That's Canada for you. 
I will just plan on having one of the sprinklers on all day long. When one zone is done, I'll move to the next. Rinse and repeat. Good thing that I can do most of my work from home right now.



g-man said:


> Also, are impact heads setup in a head to head coverage? Meaning, is there another impact that reaches each head? Impact heads provide water at a distance but not near them. Another head is needed to ensure even coverage.


No, I don't have a setup that offers perfect coverage. That's just something I have to live with at the moment. I've come a long way from using a single hose for all of my watering. And I am able to get most areas well enough. But my setup isn't perfect.

I've only recently begun using the impacts. I stopped watering the front half of the yard with a hose and am now letting the impacts do that work for me. The spray stream is able to overlap with my some of my Orbit Gear Drive sprinklers. Also, I calibrate the impacts each time I water so that the near-far range is more balanced, with water being shot close to my house as well as further into the yard. As far as I can tell, they are giving me pretty even distribution--even better than the Orbits.



vnephologist said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> SP, try to check your ground 10min before the next schedule irrigation time. Go touch it, is it dry or moist? If it is dry you will need to increase your frequency.
> 
> I have a suspect that the areas getting really wet are staying moist until the next cycle (because of the excess water).
> 
> 
> 
> +1 was exactly my thought
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in here. I think you guys have this problem diagnosed. I'm going to up the ante tomorrow. Maybe I can use my water bill for my Halloween decoration.


----------



## pennstater2005

The traps will kill the moles. No clubs involved  At least the Trapline traps did. Plus, that would be a pretty small club &#128540;


----------



## social port

Rain is finally in the forecast--up to 4 inches over the next 72 hours. 
To make the most of the opportunity, I put down a nice layer of peat moss on areas that do not get sufficient water . I'm hoping to trap the moisture to get as much germination from the dry areas as I can.

It was warm and windy when putting down the peat. You can imagine what that was like. I looked like swamp thing after I was done.













Here is a picture of Tenacity putting in some nice work. Weeds have been minimal so far, except for green onions.


----------



## pennstater2005

Seeds down was a couple weeks ago right? How much has germinated so far? Hopefully that tackifier holds up to 4" of rain!!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Seeds down was a couple weeks ago right? How much has germinated so far? Hopefully that tackifier holds up to 4" of rain!!


We are at the 14 day mark today. I was going to take pictures and write something up. However, with last night's rain, my lawn looks more like a lake. Actually, it looks a good deal like Colonel KOrn's avatar.

If I called the reno complete today, I would be disappointed with results. I have nice growth in areas and meager growth elsewhere. Right now, I'm clean clinging to optimism: that standing water won't kill my baby grass and that I will get more germination from all of the rain.

I've got all the faith in the world in that tackifier.


----------



## social port

Had a break in the rainfall. 
At day14 with TTTF, here is the side yard







Front yard













Back yard


----------



## social port

Now, with more rainfall, you can really see the puddling.











I don't know much about excessive water and baby grass, but I don't think this is good. The pooling will go away within 1-3 hours of the rain stopping.


----------



## pennstater2005

Definitely looks somewhat washed out but if that tackifier worked it should all be good. Is anymore rain forecast for you?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Definitely looks somewhat washed out but if that tackifier worked it should all be good. Is anymore rain forecast for you?


It will continue raining for another 12 hours or so, but intermittently. It is only misting now, and most of the puddles have disappeared.

We are getting more rain on Tuesday. I am thinking of holding off on watering on Monday.


----------



## social port

17 day mark today. The rain has definitely increased the germination rate. The ground is absolutely saturated. 
This suggests that my Reno would have been more successful if I had been able to provide more water to the lawn. Next time around, I'll be able to make major improvements in how I set up my sprinklers.

Now that two weeks have elapsed, it is time to back off the frequency of watering. I was planning to do twice per day, but that may be too much. It is going to be hot (85) and humid here for a week or so. One 20 minute soak in the mid morning may be the optimal schedule for the next week. I'll take any input on that plan.

Pictures to come soon.


----------



## social port




----------



## pennstater2005

That looks like it's starting to fill in. A little fertilizer after awhile should help it to fill in more.

I think you're on track with the watering. On my reno at some point with the warm, humid, cloudy days plus my watering schedule (maybe too much) I ended up with fungus.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> A little fertilizer after awhile should help it to fill in more


You think so? I was under the impression that KBG does a lot of filling in -- not so much with TTTF. But really, I know very little about how fescue grows. I should probably devote some time to studying that.
It is encouraging to hear that it might fill in more. I have already been considering putting more seed down in the next two weeks or so, whenever my next fert app is due. It is probably too late, but I feel comfortable with the gamble given the unusually warm temperatures that we have been having. Last year, I recall mowing in early December.



pennstater2005 said:


> I think you're on track with the watering. On my reno at some point with the warm, humid, cloudy days plus my watering schedule (maybe too much) I ended up with fungus.


Yeah, I saw the fungicide question in your thread. I don't have any experience using them. 
You're approach to watering was kind of a 'feeling out the situation,' was it not? You were basing your schedule around what the grass was telling you? I used a more standardized approach based on generic guidelines, but ended up having to water substantially more than the guideline (after TLF consultation).
I take it that you were watering twice per day beyond the three week mark?


----------



## pennstater2005

First, a nice Tall Fescue lawn care calendar from the University of Arkansas:

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-6118.pdf

When I was referring to filling in I didn't mean spreading, which is what KBG will do via rhizomes and tillers. I was thinking more along the lines of promoting growth and getting some nitrogen applied. After I fertilized I noticed it "thickened up". Although, I would probably wait a bit longer. I like this PSU article on turf grass fertilization.

http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/turfgrass-fertilization-professional

Yeah, my approach was initially 2-3 times a day because it was so hot and dry. Then I went more by feel but somewhere along the way with the humid, cloudy conditions and my continued watering I think that's how I got the fungus. I did water twice per day after three weeks but after a month I started dialing it back, but that was based on weather conditions as it stayed hot.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> First, a nice Tall Fescue lawn care calendar from the University of Arkansas:
> 
> https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/FSA-6118.pdf
> 
> When I was referring to filling in I didn't mean spreading, which is what KBG will do via rhizomes and tillers. I was thinking more along the lines of promoting growth and getting some nitrogen applied. After I fertilized I noticed it "thickened up". Although, I would probably wait a bit longer. I like this PSU article on turf grass fertilization.
> 
> http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/turfgrass-fertilization-professional
> 
> Yeah, my approach was initially 2-3 times a day because it was so hot and dry. Then I went more by feel but somewhere along the way with the humid, cloudy conditions and my continued watering I think that's how I got the fungus. I did water twice per day after three weeks but after a month I started dialing it back, but that was based on weather conditions as it stayed hot.


Thanks for those links :thumbup:

I'm moving forward with my plan to water once per day. I've got three large zones to cover. I'm hitting each zone for about 15-20 minutes, with the first zone getting its water around 10am. If my new timers allow flexible start times, watering could be completed by 11am. That's probably the best defense against fungus that I have right now, outside of a fungicide.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seeds down was a couple weeks ago right? How much has germinated so far? Hopefully that tackifier holds up to 4" of rain!!
> 
> 
> 
> We are at the 14 day mark today. I was going to take pictures and write something up. However, with last night's rain, my lawn looks more like a lake. Actually, it looks a good deal like Colonel KOrn's avatar.
> 
> If I called the reno complete today, I would be disappointed with results. I have nice growth in areas and meager growth elsewhere. Right now, I'm clean clinging to optimism: that standing water won't kill my baby grass and that I will get more germination from all of the rain.
> 
> I've got all the faith in the world in that tackifier.
Click to expand...

If you look at the front yard pics that I had 3 days after seed down, and then after Hurricane Irma, then I can identify with your woes. Reading this made me laugh 😂


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seeds down was a couple weeks ago right? How much has germinated so far? Hopefully that tackifier holds up to 4" of rain!!
> 
> 
> 
> We are at the 14 day mark today. I was going to take pictures and write something up. However, with last night's rain, my lawn looks more like a lake. Actually, it looks a good deal like Colonel KOrn's avatar.
> 
> If I called the reno complete today, I would be disappointed with results. I have nice growth in areas and meager growth elsewhere. Right now, I'm clean clinging to optimism: that standing water won't kill my baby grass and that I will get more germination from all of the rain.
> 
> I've got all the faith in the world in that tackifier.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you look at the front yard pics that I had 3 days after seed down, and then after Hurricane Irma, then I can identify with your woes. Reading this made me laugh 😂
Click to expand...

It's funny that you mention this. I know those pictures well. I used your pics to help me judge how I should respond to what I was seeing in my lawn after getting all of that rain.

You've got a great thread going on over there. I've enjoyed reading through it.


----------



## social port

25 day mark today. We've had an additional rain in the past week. The sides of the yard (mostly out of reach of my sprinklers) have started to fill in.













Still some bare areas. I'm thinking this may be a result of some puddling from heavy rain.

I'm due for fertilizer application soon. I'm planning on splitting applications into two in a month rather than one for the whole month, as previously discussed.

I was planning to use Scott's' starter fertilizer with mesotrione, but I think I will use a standard starter fertilizer instead. I'm going to take my chances with no pre M.

I am also trying to order more seed to address the bare spots.


----------



## pennstater2005

20k is quite the undertaking! How much more seed will you be ordering? It does like it is thickening up somewhat. What are your temps like in Tennessee?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> 20k is quite the undertaking! How much more seed will you be ordering? It does like it is thickening up somewhat. What are your temps like in Tennessee?


volsfan did a full reno on an acre. And I'm pretty sure that wardconnor does his thing on 20k worth of lawn. Yes, I do sometimes fantasize about a 5-10k reno, as it seems so manageable. But then I think about wardconnor reel mowing 20k, and I am reminded of what is possible 

Our temperatures have been getting kind of low at night--upper 40s. Still, I have time to get some more seed up and running. Daytime temp today will be 80. Our soil temp is around 55, which is optimal for fescue germination.

I've been back and forth on how much seed to order. At this point, I am just kind of eyeballing what I will need. If I can reach Hogan today, I am going to order another 40 pounds. That should be more than adequate for addressing bare areas, and that quantity should also give me enough to fill in thin areas.

I plan to drop a half-rate of starter fertilizer on Sunday. As soon as my seed arrives (Monday or Tuesday, likely), I will take care of bare areas. I may move my sprinkler setup some to target the bare areas. I really don't want to walk on the grass yet, but I'm sure it will be OK. I do have some grass that has just sprouted, but I'm betting on those little fellows to be hardy enough to take a footprint or two from yours truly.


----------



## social port

I put down a half a pound of P and K per k last night. We had heavy rain last night and this morning. I also mowed parts of the overseeded areas at 4 inches.
I ordered 50 pounds of seed, which should arrive tomorrow. I will be addressing the bare areas with it and a generous amount of peat.
Judging by the puddling that I saw today, the bare areas are the ones that are most subject to puddling. And I'm not sure that the lack of germination is entirely due to washout. These areas are very mushy--too mushy, I would say. I'm only speculating here, but soil that is this mushy doesn't look healthy enough to support grass...I don't know. This may be an issue that can be corrected only by leveling. Maybe the peat moss can do some of the work, if only temporarily. Here are some of the mushy areas. The dirt has a black hue to it here and there.









I've also noticed a slight yellowing in certain areas of grass. One might think the color difference is due to different cultivars, but that seems unlikely to me. The same cultivars would not have bunched together so uniformly.

The yellowing could be some kind of fungus. More disasterously, it could grass dying because it can't establish roots (doomsday thinking going on here). 
I'm a full month outside of seeding. I think it is time to pull back to watering every other day. 
Now it is time to think about how to manage irrigation with parts of the yard needing water every three hours (due to new seed) and other parts needing water every other day. 
Here is some of the yellowing. It may look subtle. In all three pictures, the yellowing is concentrated around the sprinkler heads.


----------



## pennstater2005

Is it getting a little late now, even for Tennessee, to try and establish new seed? Am I seeing some different weed grasses mixed in there in some of the pictures? Not sure as to the yellowing in those pictures. I'm done spraying fungicides on mine however and will just let it grow itself out as able now.

https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/Documents/W160-F.pdf


----------



## j4c11

What's with the grass growing in straight lines?

I had problems growing grass in areas that were puddling as well. This was around the base of impact sprinklers because they leaked. Indeed it seems too much water can completely inhibit germination.


----------



## j4c11

For areas that are now established, my advice would be to stop watering altogether unless you see signs of drought stress. With the temperatures being the way they are, it shouldn't need watering at all. Also, if you seed and cover with peat moss, watering for 15 minutes around noon and again around 5PM should be sufficient water for the seed. If you're going to be hitting existing grass in the process of watering the seed, I would suggest 1 fl.oz propiconazole per thousand weekly.


----------



## social port

some really good feedback here, thanks.



pennstater2005 said:


> Is it getting a little late now, even for Tennessee, to try and establish new seed?


It is certainly on the latter half of the optimal window, but I think I will be OK. My neighbor was able to get a successful reseed a day or two before Halloween a year or two ago. I also double-checked with Hogan's, and they advised that I still had plenty of time. I'm kind of with you in thinking that I am pushing things a bit, but I'm willing to lose some money in seed. If I leave things alone, I'll be living with a lawn with very uneven growth for the next ten months. It is worth the risk to get that lawn as full as possible.



pennstater2005 said:


> Am I seeing some different weed grasses mixed in there in some of the pictures?


Yes, you are. They look horrible. I had some nice grass that I left during my glyphosate apps. I didn't realize how many weeds there were in the mix. I should have killed everything. Some of what you are seeing is KY31 fescue, I believe. The other stuff may be nutsedge, but I haven't taken the time to really investigate. At this point, I am leaving the weeds alone. If the new grass is healthy enough in a month, I might consider a post emergent, but I think it would be pretty worthless so close to December. Not sure yet.



pennstater2005 said:


> I'm done spraying fungicides on mine however and will just let it grow itself out as able now.


If it is a fungus, my plan is to let it grow out as well. I'm trying to avoid fungicides.



j4c11 said:


> What's with the grass growing in straight lines?


I'm not sure. It is almost amusing. The straight lines became more noticeable during the past week or two. My suspicion is that a poorly functioning spreader is to blame. I suspect that the bulk of the seed was discharged down rather than to the sides. If that is true, then my fertilizer app from the other day will not provide the lawn with comprehensive coverage. I have a new spreader now, but I am waiting for some replacement parts. 
The problem with that explanation is that other areas of the yard appear to have received more comprehensive coverage, as the growth is full, and no lines are apparent.



j4c11 said:


> I had problems growing grass in areas that were puddling as well. This was around the base of impact sprinklers because they leaked. Indeed it seems too much water can completely inhibit germination.


And kill off anything that does manage to germinate. Yes. Striking a water balance has been challenging during this reno. On the one hand, I needed to water frequently (6 times per day) to get optimal germination. On the other hand, I'm now pretty sure that other areas were simply too wet. Having a well-designed, underground irrigation system would have given me a far better outcome, of that I am sure.



j4c11 said:


> For areas that are now established, my advice would be to stop watering altogether unless you see signs of drought stress. With the temperatures being the way they are, it shouldn't need watering at all


Roger that. Thanks. That recommendation is in line with what I am noticing on the perimeter of my yard: The perimeter gets very little water from my sprinklers, but the grass growing on the perimeter seems to be doing just fine.



j4c11 said:


> Also, if you seed and cover with peat moss, watering for 15 minutes around noon and again around 5PM should be sufficient water for the seed.


That is what I call an easy watering plan--and very doable. I'll move forward with that.



j4c11 said:


> If you're going to be hitting existing grass in the process of watering the seed, I would suggest 1 fl.oz propiconazole per thousand weekly.


I believe that I have a plan set up so that I will be able to avoid wetting the existing grass as I water the seed. Worst case scenario, I will hand water the seeded areas, so as to avoid any overlap. I'm trying to stay out of the fungicide market for now.


----------



## j4c11

social port said:


> I'm not sure. It is almost amusing. The straight lines became more noticeable during the past week or two


It almost looks like the edges of sod pieces.


----------



## social port

j4c11 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure. It is almost amusing. The straight lines became more noticeable during the past week or two
> 
> 
> 
> It almost looks like the edges of sod pieces.
Click to expand...

Here is a bird's eye view that shows the lines particularly well. You can even see evidence of my double pass (perpendicular).





Too bad the rest of the lawn can't be mistaken for sod.

I need to get my new earthway spreader up and running stat.


----------



## LawnNerd

I've seen seed and fert get stuck in the wheels of the cheapo scotts spreader. My old cheapo scotts spreader had the plastic wheels that had hollow cutouts on the inside wall of the wheel. I would see what ever i was spreading catch in there and then falls and leaves a nice straight (if you walk straight) line. I had some nice fert kill one time, and that prompted me to get a spreader with rubber inflatable tires.


----------



## j4c11

social port said:


> Here is a bird's eye view that shows the lines particularly well. You can even see evidence of my double pass (perpendicular).


Well nice job on those straight passes :thumbup:

Oh well. Hopefully the warm-ish weather holds and you can germinate some more grass. Fescue will germinate pretty quickly.


----------



## monty

Are those lines the same width as.your spreader wheels? It's hard to tell in the pic but the lines seem wide


----------



## g-man

Those lines look like mower tracks.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> I've seen seed and fert get stuck in the wheels of the cheapo scotts spreader. My old cheapo scotts spreader had the plastic wheels that had hollow cutouts on the inside wall of the wheel. I would see what ever i was spreading catch in there and then falls and leaves a nice straight (if you walk straight) line. I had some nice fert kill one time, and that prompted me to get a spreader with rubber inflatable tires.


Man, it is going to hurt if I burned my new grass. I put down a half rate, so maybe I'm in the clear.

My new spreader has inflatable tires, too :nod:
Now all it needs is a TLF sticker.


----------



## social port

monty said:


> Are those lines the same width as.your spreader wheels? It's hard to tell in the pic but the lines seem wide


That is an interesting thought. Comparing measurements gives me some means for tracing the lines effect back to the spreader. 
The wheels measure a bit over 13 inches. The grass lines vary, but tend toward 6 inches. The impeller plate on the spreader also measures 6 inches. Hmmm.


----------



## Vols_fan08

SP did you roll after seeding? I couldn't remember. Or did you slice seed


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> SP did you roll after seeding? I couldn't remember. Or did you slice seed


It looks like a slice job, but I used a roller. It was the best part of the reno process--or at least the most fun. I'd totally do it again.

But here's the thing: I also used a gas-powered dethatcher prior to seeding, and I went deep into that soil. FWIW, I believe that the deeper I went, the better the seedling turnout. If there weren't Bermuda runners scattered throughout the yard, I would have gone deep on the whole yard.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Those lines look like mower tracks.


Were you thinking that the lines could be from a mower? Perhaps the tires pushed the seed farther into the soil?

The last time I was on my zero turn was with the seed roller. I was making irregular passes with the roller, hitting the seed at multiple directions. There would have been very few straight lines made during that escapade.


----------



## Vols_fan08

social port said:


> Vols_fan08 said:
> 
> 
> 
> SP did you roll after seeding? I couldn't remember. Or did you slice seed
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like a slice job, but I used a roller. It was the best part of the reno process--or at least the most fun. I'd totally do it again.
> 
> But here's the thing: I also used a gas-powered dethatcher prior to seeding, and I went deep into that soil. FWIW, I believe that the deeper I went, the better the seedling turnout. If there weren't Bermuda runners scattered throughout the yard, I would have gone deep on the whole yard.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was wandering if that was the edge of the roller that made little ridges of loose soil, therefore the grass germinated better in those little ridges...? Did you aerate before too?


----------



## Vols_fan08

After looking at the lines and space, pretty sure that's what happened &#128528;. It's the exact width of the roller. The edge of the roller dug in a little deeper and made a small ridge of loose soil. Creating a perfect seedbed for those little boogers.


----------



## social port

monty said:


> Are those lines the same width as.your spreader wheels? It's hard to tell in the pic but the lines seem wide


Monty, I interpreted your question incorrectly. Volsfan's question clued me in.
You were asking about the width of the wheels--not the width in between the wheels.


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> After looking at the lines and space, pretty sure that's what happened 😐. It's the exact width of the roller. The edge of the roller dug in a little deeper and made a small ridge of loose soil. Creating a perfect seedbed for those little boogers.


Why doesn't this happen more often, I wonder?

So what I should conclude is that the seed thrown in the space in between the wheels did not have sufficient seed to soil contact?

That's less of a knock against Scott's spreader.

I did not mechanically aerate, by the way. I used 'chemical aeration' with several apps of baby shampoo, humid acid, and kelp extract. I also used hydretain for moisture retention.


----------



## Vols_fan08

Brother all I can tell you is my seed that wasn't down in the dirt either did not geminate or is thin. I don't claim to be a expert lol but... The grass from the holes is doing very well, the grass from lose soil is doing OK.. My conclusion is seed needs to be in the dirt. The holes hold moisture and nutrients beside the seed. I suspect this is why a slice seeder does well too.. I would poke some holes in that yard and throw some more seed down in a last ditch effort.. but I'm not a lawn expert just a local cop &#128514;&#128514;


----------



## Vols_fan08

Alot of people say the grass will be patchy from the holes. Well, it was at first.. as the grass plants have matured they're spreading a bit and filling out. I'll post some pics in my thread tomorrow for you to see.


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> Alot of people say the grass will be patchy from the holes. Well, it was at first.. as the grass plants have matured they're spreading a bit and filling out. I'll post some pics in my thread tomorrow for you to see.


 :thumbup:


----------



## pennstater2005

Right before I seeded I used that thatch rake I bought to really rough up the ground creating little slices. Then after seeding using the backside of the leaf rake to push the seed around a little hoping more found its way into the openings. I think it worked pretty well. Manual labor was tough but a great payoff.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Right before I seeded I used that thatch rake I bought to really rough up the ground creating little slices. Then after seeding using the backside of the leaf rake to push the seed around a little hoping more found its way into the openings. I think it worked pretty well. Manual labor was tough but a great payoff.


The process of raking seed has always confused me a bit. The nice thing about distributing seed via a spreader or skillful hand-throwing is that you approach even coverage. It has always seemed to me that raking the seed around after the fact is counterproductive in that it makes the seed less evenly distributed (e.g., not bunched up or forming a pattern). I take it that you and plenty of others find that this is not the case at all.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right before I seeded I used that thatch rake I bought to really rough up the ground creating little slices. Then after seeding using the backside of the leaf rake to push the seed around a little hoping more found its way into the openings. I think it worked pretty well. Manual labor was tough but a great payoff.
> 
> 
> 
> The process of raking seed has always confused me a bit. The nice thing about distributing seed via a spreader or skillful hand-throwing is that you approach even coverage. It has always seemed to me that raking the seed around after the fact is counterproductive in that it makes the seed less evenly distributed (e.g., not bunched up or forming a pattern). I take it that you and plenty of others find that this is not the case at all.
Click to expand...

Others may chime in but in my case I only very lightly used the rake to move the seed into some openings created by the thatch rake. That and this gave it a little extra seed to soil contact. I think I had a pretty good germination rate. Would it make much of a difference if I didn't do this? Probably not.


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> but I'm not a lawn expert just a local cop


Cop or detective?  That's a pretty impressive display of inductive reasoning you used to trace the lines of grass to the spreader wheels. At this point, I'm convinced that you are correct about how those grass lines were created.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Would it make much of a difference if I didn't do this? Probably not.


It would be nice if we had some way of knowing definitively the contribution of each 'extra step' that we take. For example, it would be helpful to know if raking does have an effect and if it does, what its contribution to the germination rate is. Sometimes these extra steps in the process are considered optional, in that they are things you can do that may make your grow slightly more successful.
But I am starting to think that these extra steps have a stronger effect than otherwise. Peat moss is a good example from my reno. Germination in areas covered with peat was far better than areas where the seed was simply rolled into the dirt. Adding peat well after the seed date also tended to increase germination in less-developed areas after only a few days (and a healthy rain).


----------



## social port

My new seed order arrived on Tuesday, but it has been a busy week, and I wasn't able to get it down until today. I ordered 50 pounds.
I spent most of the morning and afternoon spreading seed in bare and thin areas. Then I covered all of the areas with a heavy layer of peat moss. As luck would have it, the temp is getting down to 30 degrees tonight. Seeding in freezing weather: What could go wrong?

Also, I looked over the yellowing areas of the lawn today. It looks like leaf spot to me. I've had some grass die, but other areas seem OK at this point. The infection is still hanging out in my lawn, but I'm hoping that five or so days without rain will take care of the problem.

I still need to put down tackifier. Why? Because the areas that are bare also tend to be areas that puddle during rain. I'm hoping that if I get the tackifier down (once temps come back up--and they will), the seed will not be washed out during the next rainfall. During my first seed, my use of the tackifier was restricted to the slopes of the yard. That was a mistake. I should have used it on all areas where water tends to pool.

I've got two days with cold temperatures -- in the low 30s or so. By Tuesday, the highs should be back in the 60s. At that point, my tackifier will go down. At the end of the week, I will make a fertilizer application. I am due for a half rate, but my grass didn't get much Nitrogen during the last app, so I may apply at .7/k with a balanced fertilizer (compared to a 6-12-12, which I previously used). I need the top growth at this point, because the grass simply isn't growing very much. It may very well be my last app this season, but it is difficult to say. Timing feels like a roll of the dice. Although it is freezing tonight, I'll probably be mowing in December. I would like to feed that new grass as much as possible, especially since I'll be trying to get new grass through the Winter.


----------



## social port

I did get my tackifier down on Tuesday, as planned. However, I had a snafu or two.

I used a hose-end sprayer to apply the tackifier. When I mixed the tackifier with water, the solution became very gummy. It was so thick that it did not move through the tube very well, so I probably hit my bare areas with more water than the tackifier solution. I don't recall having this problem when I applied the tackifier at my first seeding. I may have used too much of the tackifier poweder--that is the best explanation.
If I were to use a tackifier again (and probably will), I would consider two approaches: One, use a very, very small amount of powder if using a hose-end sprayer that doesn't hold a lot of water or two, spread the tackifier powder on the lawn with a very lite touch. 
Since my tackifier mix did not turn out well this time, I opted for option two. I used a trowel to toss the powder over bare areas. It only takes a small amount. I let the wind take care of the distribution pattern.

I will be applying fertilizer soon. Since our temps have warmed up (almost in the 80s), I have decided to mix Milo and a balanced fertilizer. I will be using a 15-15-15 at around .4 lb per k and Milo at .3 lb per k. 
We had a heavy rain yesterday. I wanted to get the fertilizer down before the rain, but I missed my window. I tried to get the fertilizer down after the rain yesterday, but the ground was too soggy. I took one look at the tire tracks left by my spreader and had the immediate thought: "Am I killing my grass?" I then promptly packed up and went inside.

Now it is a waiting game. I'm trying to get the fertilizer down right before the next rain. I want to do the app before it rains so that I don't have to put extra water on the lawn. That fungus is still hanging around and has spread to neighboring grass. Therefore, the less water I have to put down, the better. I really want the rain to water the triple 15 fertilizer in.

I still haven't had to mow the new grass. 90 percent of the new grass isn't tall enough.


----------



## social port

Yesterday, I was able to fertilize with triple 15 at .4 lk per k and Milorganite at .3 lb per k. I used my new Earthway spreader. It did a fine job. 
I had to spread the fertilizer in the dark, but I was as attentive to the distribution pattern as I could be.

When I woke this morning, it was raining; so my timing was on. It is supposed to rain off and on for another day. Then, I am hoping that we get some sustained dry weather to give this fungus a better chance of leaving.

I'm betting that I'm going to be ready for a full mow in one week.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Yesterday, I was able to fertilize with triple 15 at .4 lk per k and Milorganite at .3 lb per k. I used my new Earthway spreader. It did a fine job.
> I had to spread the fertilizer in the dark, but I was as attentive to the distribution pattern as I could be.
> 
> When I woke this morning, it was raining; so my timing was on. It is supposed to rain off and on for another day. Then, I am hoping that we get some sustained dry weather to give this fungus a better chance of leaving.
> 
> I'm betting that I'm going to be ready for a full mow in one week.


Well it looks like you finally had some luck swing your way buddy. I'm hoping that you'll be able to get some growth before the temps turn too cool. I have a suspicion that the winter is going to be pretty cold compared to years past. If that happens, I hope we both have yards come spring. If anything, we might have weeds, but that's nothing that glyphosate and more seed won't take care of.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I was able to fertilize with triple 15 at .4 lk per k and Milorganite at .3 lb per k. I used my new Earthway spreader. It did a fine job.
> I had to spread the fertilizer in the dark, but I was as attentive to the distribution pattern as I could be.
> 
> When I woke this morning, it was raining; so my timing was on. It is supposed to rain off and on for another day. Then, I am hoping that we get some sustained dry weather to give this fungus a better chance of leaving.
> 
> I'm betting that I'm going to be ready for a full mow in one week.
> 
> 
> 
> Well it looks like you finally had some luck swing your way buddy. I'm hoping that you'll be able to get some growth before the temps turn too cool. I have a suspicion that the winter is going to be pretty cold compared to years past. If that happens, I hope we both have yards come spring. If anything, we might have weeds, but that's nothing that glyphosate and more seed won't take care of.
Click to expand...

Thanks, CK. I'll take any advantage that I can get when it comes to growing grass, even if it comes by way of luck.

I'm going to be enjoying taking care of a beautiful lawn next spring, and I'm sure that you will be doing the same. Our biggest problem will be figuring out how in the world we are going to make it through the winter without working on the lawn. If you think of something, let me know.


----------



## social port

I wonder what color rating NTEP would give here 

I'm very happy with it, even with the occasional lime-colored fungus patches.


----------



## Vols_fan08

social port said:


> I wonder what color rating NTEP would give here
> 
> I'm very happy with it, even with the occasional lime-colored fungus patches.


Surely at least the popular "6.7" :bandit: looking good


----------



## pennstater2005

What Earthway did you get? I'm looking forward to next year too without fungus.


----------



## social port

Vols_fan08 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder what color rating NTEP would give here
> 
> I'm very happy with it, even with the occasional lime-colored fungus patches.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely at least the popular "6.7" :bandit: looking good
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: 
The milorganite might bring out the color a bit more in a week. I'm really eager to see how things look after the first mow.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> What Earthway did you get? I'm looking forward to next year too without fungus.


Without fungus, for sure. It's a source of anxiety every time I see it because you don't really know what the toll will be. 
You know what is funny? The areas that were not watered by my sprinklers look good at this point. There is no fungus in these areas, and they are dark green. The areas are not as full and thick as areas that received sprinkler water, but a little overseeding next fall will take care of that.

I have an Earthway 2600 A plus. It is so, so smooth. I love it. I'm looking forward to my next app, weather permitting.


----------



## pennstater2005

I figure what happened happened and I'll hash it out in the spring. Was the Earthway difficult to put together? My 2170 was pretty awful.


----------



## Sinclair

It's really come a long way since last month!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I figure what happened happened and I'll hash it out in the spring


That's a major perk of the bluegrass: Recovery and spreadability with proper nutrition.



pennstater2005 said:


> Was the Earthway difficult to put together? My 2170 was pretty awful.


It took some time and careful attention, for sure, but I would not call it difficult. I did notice that there are several easy ways to goof (like by not having the arrow on the gearbox pointing to the front of the spreader).
I'm not handy, and I loathe step-by-step instructions, so reading through an assembly manual is always an exercise in frustration tolerance. The 2600 A plus manual was relatively tolerable.

One thing that I did like about my old Scott's spreader: It had a setting for how much the hopper opened as well as a general on/off control for the hopper, which allowed me to completely close up the hopper without changing my spreader settings. The Earthway doesn't have a second control lever--only one for adjusting how heavy the application is.
The Earthway is miles ahead of the Scott's spreader, but having that on/off control switch was handy when turning around and when I wanted to keep all fertilizer out of a specific area.


----------



## social port

Sinclair said:


> It's really come a long way since last month!


It really has. I'm happier with it each day. If I can get the grass from my October reseed healthy, I'll be in really fine shape next spring.

I'll just need to keep a close eye on any bermuda that might be eager to return. Not gonna happen.
Hashtag TTTF Territory.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> One thing that I did like about my old Scott's spreader: It had a setting for how much the hopper opened as well as a general on/off control for the hopper, which allowed me to completely close up the hopper without changing my spreader settings. The Earthway doesn't have a second control lever--only one for adjusting how heavy the application is.
> The Earthway is miles ahead of the Scott's spreader, but having that on/off control switch was handy when turning around and when I wanted to keep all fertilizer out of a specific area.


On my Earthway 2170, there is a single control rod which serves as both the on/off control and the rate of application selector. There is an adjustable stop that controls the "open" position to vary the application rate. I've found the single control rod with adjustable stop approach to work quite well. Does the Earthway 2600A plus that you have have a different mechanism for this?


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> I'll just need to keep a close eye on any bermuda that might be eager to return. Not gonna happen.
> Hashtag TTTF Territory.


----------



## pennstater2005

I saved my Scotts mini and use of smaller applications of urea. And the kid uses it to spread milo!


----------



## jessehurlburt

pennstater2005 said:


> And the kid uses it to spread milo!


Got to start them early! :lol:


----------



## social port

ken-n-nancy said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> One thing that I did like about my old Scott's spreader: It had a setting for how much the hopper opened as well as a general on/off control for the hopper, which allowed me to completely close up the hopper without changing my spreader settings. The Earthway doesn't have a second control lever--only one for adjusting how heavy the application is.
> The Earthway is miles ahead of the Scott's spreader, but having that on/off control switch was handy when turning around and when I wanted to keep all fertilizer out of a specific area.
> 
> 
> 
> On my Earthway 2170, there is a single control rod which serves as both the on/off control and the rate of application selector. There is an adjustable stop that controls the "open" position to vary the application rate. I've found the single control rod with adjustable stop approach to work quite well. Does the Earthway 2600A plus that you have have a different mechanism for this?
Click to expand...

I believe that what you are describing matches what I have with the 2600A plus. The 2600Aplus does allow for on/off control and rate selection, but both functions are controlled with the same lever (or rod). 
I can completely close the hopper while turning around, but then I must set the rate of application again before making another pass. Is that doable? Absolutely. However, I see room for human error with setting an application rate multiple times during an application. I usually make very fine adjustments before I am satisfied with an application rate for the entire yard. Dialing it in is a process. For that reason, having an independent on/off control for the hopper was convenient.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll just need to keep a close eye on any bermuda that might be eager to return. Not gonna happen.
> Hashtag TTTF Territory.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is it, exactly!!
:lol: 
I was also thinking of going the 'street gang' route: "This turf is protected by the ls1200 posse" (all gang members adorned with TLF bling, of course, and armed with Ornamec, Glyphosate, Pylex, and some ice packs, just to be ugly about it).


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I saved my Scotts mini and use of smaller applications of urea. And the kid uses it to spread milo!


Heck yeah. Milo is such a pleasure to use.

I had a bag the other day with the perfect amount of blueberry overtones. My wife walked by as I was dumping it in a bucket: "That stuff stinks," she said. I just laughed as I thought about telling her the history of how it wound up in the bag.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> I can completely close the hopper while turning around, but then I must set the rate of application again before making another pass. Is that doable? Absolutely.


I do that at the end of every pass -- I see it as very similar to remembering to close off the hopper with the Scotts spreader. It's not that it requires fine-tuning once the adjustable stop has been set appropriately -- one just moves the control lever all the way up against the stop.

Yes, there is a risk that if one mashes the control rod lever too firmly against the adjustable stop, then the stop will shift and one will overapply fertilizer. (I had that happen once in my early days of using the Earthway.) That is a risk that is avoided by design in the Scotts spreader by having separate controls for the two functions.

I try to mitigate the risk of accidentally shifting the stop on the Earthway by making sure I tighten the adjustable stop quite firmly and being gentle with the control rod when moving it to the "open" position.

I really like the ease-of-use of the Earthway spreader, however, and it lays down an impressively even distribution pattern.


----------



## social port

ken-n-nancy said:


> once the adjustable stop has been set appropriately -- one just moves the control lever all the way up against the stop.


Ohhh...well, this is just user-error on my part. I wasn't using the adjustable stop for its intended purpose. Thanks for taking the time to point this out. That takes care of the issue completely.



ken-n-nancy said:


> I really like the ease-of-use of the Earthway spreader, however, and it lays down an impressively even distribution pattern.


I completely agree. I am so impressed with the distribution. The Earthway feels like it floats compared to my previous spreader.


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## LawnNerd

social port said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll just need to keep a close eye on any bermuda that might be eager to return. Not gonna happen.
> Hashtag TTTF Territory.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, that is it, exactly!!
> :lol:
> I was also thinking of going the 'street gang' route: "This turf is protected by the ls1200 posse" (all gang members adorned with TLF bling, of course, and armed with Ornamec, Glyphosate, Pylex, and some ice packs, just to be ugly about it).
Click to expand...


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## social port

Oh wow. Bravo! :lol: :lol: 
Standing ovation.

That made my week.

And some Bermuda just got put on notice


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## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> Ohhh...well, this is just user-error on my part. I wasn't using the adjustable stop for its intended purpose. Thanks for taking the time to point this out. That takes care of the issue completely.


Glad to have been of help. But now, I confess that you've really piqued my curiosity -- for what had you been using the adjustable stop? I don't know if the Earthway manual did a very good job of explaining how to use it, so your mis-use of it is understandable...


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## social port

ken-n-nancy said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhh...well, this is just user-error on my part. I wasn't using the adjustable stop for its intended purpose. Thanks for taking the time to point this out. That takes care of the issue completely.
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to have been of help. But now, I confess that you've really piqued my curiosity -- for what had you been using the adjustable stop? I don't know if the Earthway manual did a very good job of explaining how to use it, so your mis-use of it is understandable...
Click to expand...

I regret disappointing you. It would be neat if I "accidentally" discovered an unintended use for the stop.
The truth is that I didn't use the stop for anything. I thought that the piece was there to hold something together. ..eh...did I mention the spreader is new to me? 

Misleading phrase of mine: what I meant was that I was not using the stop for its intended purpose because I was not using it at all.


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## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> Misleading phrase of mine: what I meant was that I was not using the stop for its intended purpose because I was not using it at all.


Thanks for clearing that up! Glad to have been able to help by clarifying the purpose of the adjustable stop -- I can see how it would be a royal pain to use the spreader without it!


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## LawnNerd

social port said:


> Oh wow. Bravo! :lol: :lol:
> Standing ovation.
> 
> That made my week.
> 
> And some Bermuda just got put on notice


I fully expect this to be hung up in the garage! :lol:


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## social port

LawnNerd said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow. Bravo! :lol: :lol:
> Standing ovation.
> 
> That made my week.
> 
> And some Bermuda just got put on notice
> 
> 
> 
> I fully expect this to be hung up in the garage! :lol:
Click to expand...

LawnNerd, the funny thing is that I thought about doing that very thing when I saw this yesterday. My friend has a printer that can print higher-quality pictures. I may very well use that printer and then do a little decorating.


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## social port

Good news! The seed I put down on 10/28 has germinated--or some of it at least. I don't think I am going to get anywhere near 90 percent germination, but I will take anything I can get at this point. The impressive thing is that the seeds survived at least three periods of low 30s temperatures AND at least two occasions heavy rainfall that led to puddling. The peat, tackifier, and luck are putting in some good work on my behalf. I'm guessing my reno update pictures are going to look substantially better compared to the last round of pictures, but we will see how the weather and the little green babies hold up over the next week.


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## social port

Big day yesterday. Spread a half pound of NPK. Watered it in thoroughly with impacts (no rain for at least one week). One of my side yards was ready for a mow. So, I gave the side yard its first mow.



The rest of the yard isn't quite ready to be mowed. We've had temps ranging from 28 to 65. For the next week, temps will remain above freezing and reach the mid 60s on more days than not. I'm hopeful that the combo of warmer temp and recent fertilizer app will be enough to push the rest of the lawn up enough to be mowed.


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## pennstater2005

Looking better. Definite improvement from the pics a month ago.


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Looking better. Definite improvement from the pics a month ago.


Yes, for sure. At this point, I'd say that I am happy with the results of my reno--or near-reno. 
Growth is slow, but it is growing. I'm going to be asking for a few inches of top growth for Christmas this year, so I've got it made in the shade with this new lawn :thumbup:


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## social port

Just got done reviewing Ware's overseed thread and noticed that he is still mowing PRG regularly (once a week) with temps ranging from the teens to the mid 70s. 
It's not been that warm here or quite that cold lately. Parts of my lawn are still weak on growth. I'm considering putting down a little more fertilizer. According to Greencast, soil temps are around 35. 
I can't figure out why some of my grass is growing fabulously, while other sections are creeping at best. It kind of seems like I would just be throwing fertilizer at the problem to no real end. On the other hand, it does make sense to take advantage of a window for growth. 
Maybe I just need to bite the bullet and mow the whole yard, regardless of high variation in grass blade length. I still haven't mowed the entire yard because I have been waiting on the slow-growing grass to size up.

I'll try to think of some other options so that I can be even more indecisive.


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## social port

On 2/27 I cut my entire lawn for the first time since my reno and reseed efforts last fall. I had previously mowed small sections (approx 5000 square feet) before winter, but I never needed to mow the entire yard until 2/27. Some sections of the yard just grew faster than others.

I put down Scott's starter fert with mesotrione earlier this month. Still have a lot of broadleaf weeds, but I am hoping they will die down soon.

I am going to post a few pictures and bring this thread to a close. I want to thank everyone for their contributions, assistance, support, and company through this process--there have been so many of you. Thank you.

I am going to start a general lawn care thread for 2018 once I have some time to put all of the ingredients together.


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## LawnNerd

Some of those broad leafs won't die in summer heat. If you're watering the lawn properly, then the clover will blow up in the spring. When did you put down that mesitrione?


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## social port

Mesotrione went down 2/18. I was planning on Dimension around 3/30 (right on the edge of the 5-6 week mark).

I know that mesotrione has some power for post-emergent control...so I was just hoping.


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