# At what point do you throw in the towel?



## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

The front lawn was seeded on 7/1. the back and sides seeded 7/2 - 7/4. I have less than 5% germination after 21 days. Obviously something went awry but I am at my wits end trying to figure what. 
I've crossed off all off the obvious possibilities...ie seed depth, correct watering, fertilizer etc.
So my question to you guys is when to cut bait and stop watering? I have a little germination by the driveway and along one side of the house that I plan to keep up with but past that I'm just going to have to regroup and try again next year.


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

Is it possible you accidentally used a glyphosate product with one of the season long controls that stays in the soil for a few months? I sprayed a couple spots in my yard this year with it in early May before I realized it. It's finally starting to come back in those spots.

I've never seeded, so I've really got nothing for you. That stinks though. Seed isn't cheap.


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## HungrySoutherner (May 29, 2018)

What are you trying to grow? If Bermuda in the words of @Movingshrub sprigging is your best bet and quit affordable if you can irrigate. Do a section then harvest out of that section with a verticutter and finish the rest you basically will have a lawn in 35 days


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

SWB said:


> The front lawn was seeded on 7/1. the back and sides seeded 7/2 - 7/4. I have less than 5% germination after 21 days. Obviously something went awry but I am at my wits end trying to figure what.
> I've crossed off all off the obvious possibilities...ie seed depth, correct watering, fertilizer etc.
> So my question to you guys is when to cut bait and stop watering? I have a little germination by the driveway and along one side of the house that I plan to keep up with but past that I'm just going to have to regroup and try again next year.


Just looking at the pictures do the areas that have germination get afternoon shade? If the sun rises to the left of the first picture the areas with no germination are roasting all day till sundown. With the heat we've been having I can't imagine how you would be able to keep all that wet. Maybe the shade helped those areas hold moisture a little better.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

TN Hawkeye said:


> SWB said:
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> > The front lawn was seeded on 7/1. the back and sides seeded 7/2 - 7/4. I have less than 5% germination after 21 days. Obviously something went awry but I am at my wits end trying to figure what.
> ...


95% of the lawn has been kept moist by a dozen or so sprinklers that run pretty much all day off & on. Those areas did receive more water just because of how the water flows off the property. With that, the rest of the lawn received more than enough water. It's a real mystery.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

HungrySoutherner said:


> What are you trying to grow? If Bermuda in the words of @Movingshrub sprigging is your best bet and quit affordable if you can irrigate. Do a section then harvest out of that section with a verticutter and finish the rest you basically will have a lawn in 35 days


It's an acre and a half. The lawn was renovated 10 years ago with great results seeded pretty much the same way.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

tcorbitt20 said:


> Is it possible you accidentally used a glyphosate product with one of the season long controls that stays in the soil for a few months? I sprayed a couple spots in my yard this year with it in early May before I realized it. It's finally starting to come back in those spots.
> 
> I've never seeded, so I've really got nothing for you. That stinks though. Seed isn't cheap.


Yes. I put down Prodiamine with gly in February. I don't think gly hangs around like Prodiamine though. The entire lawn was sprayed with gly 7 days before the renovation.


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

It doesn't. That's why I asked. Weird situation.

I've been considering seeding when we move since I priced sod, but I think I'd be more frustrated if I did all that work for nothing to grow. Hate it for you.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

tcorbitt20 said:


> It doesn't. That's why I asked. Weird situation.
> 
> I've been considering seeding when we move since I priced sod, but I think I'd be more frustrated if I did all that work for nothing to grow. Hate it for you.


Thanks....I'm disappointed that it didn't come up but very frustrated that I don't know why.
If it was a mistake by me I need to figure out what it was because it will be seeded again next spring.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

It was definitely plain glyphosate, not some "max" type product?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Birds eating all the seed? Bad batch of seed? Too wet, too dry?


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

SWB said:


> Yes. I put down Prodiamine with gly in February...


At what rate did you put down the prodiamine? It could easily still be active.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

LawnRat said:


> SWB said:
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> > Yes. I put down Prodiamine with gly in February...
> ...


Prodiamine per label. It says 5 mos before seeding so I'm good there. That was one of my first thoughts.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> It was definitely plain glyphosate, not some "max" type product?


Correct


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> Birds eating all the seed? Bad batch of seed? Too wet, too dry?


I had the same thoughts but it's just not likely.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

SWB said:


> LawnRat said:
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The label has many rates. Do you know which one you used? It must have been a strong dose if that acreage didn't get completely covered in weeds by now. I'm pretty sure that's your problem.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

LawnRat said:


> SWB said:
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There's no weeds because the entire 1.5 acres was sprayed with gly 30 days out and then again 7 days before seeding. Prior to that I had more than my share of weeds. I really don't think the prodiamine had anything to do with it.


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## LawnRat (Mar 22, 2019)

SWB said:


> LawnRat said:
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Do you know what prodiamine does? Stops seeds from sprouting! What's your problem?...seeds won't sprout!

Again, do you know what rate you used?


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Oh, what variety of Bermuda did you use? Some are more sensitive to chemicals than others.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

LawnRat said:


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Please read my previous post.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ktgrok said:


> Oh, what variety of Bermuda did you use? Some are more sensitive to chemicals than others.


Yukon.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

SWB said:


> ktgrok said:
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> > Oh, what variety of Bermuda did you use? Some are more sensitive to chemicals than others.
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Did you read @Tellycoleman lawn journal about seeding Yukon?

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=259


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

SWB said:


> ktgrok said:
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> > Oh, what variety of Bermuda did you use? Some are more sensitive to chemicals than others.
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I can't swear to it, but from memory that's the one with the most sensitivity to herbicides in general, and one that is also slow to germinate/hard to germinate. I wonder if it really did just not like the prodiamine. I mean, the directions said 5 months, but that's an average...Yukon may very well be more sensitive. Certainly more so than the rough and scrabble weeds.

If you have any left maybe do a test in a pot of your soil, and a pot of fresh soil. Maybe also a patch of your soil, undisturbed, all next to each other with same water, etc and see what happens?


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

How much water did you get?

Could you walk on the lawn...and leave a mushy shoe print?

If you overwatered "I did" look at my journal and I didn't have much of any seed sprouting and when I cut back on the water the Bermuda jumped out of the ground?

Look at my day 18 pics in my journal. Do you have any germination like that?

With this heat I would think it's unlikely you watered too much?


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

TN Hawkeye said:


> SWB said:
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Thank you for this!


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ENC_Lawn said:


> How much water did you get?
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> Could you walk on the lawn...and leave a mushy shoe print?
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> ...


Yes Its mushy out there but it doesn't stay that way long. I went out and looked this morning .....I would say I have 50% germination on a 15k area along one side. I'm getting a larger area of germination in the back.....but still not much. Still not much going on in the front. I think I'm going to hurry up and wait a few more days to see what happens.
I'm going to look at your journal this afternoon. Thanks


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

I would point my finger at the prodiamine. If it were the moisture or the seed you wouldn't have uniform bad results. It's the preemerge.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Art_Vandelay said:


> I would point my finger at the prodiamine. If it were the moisture or the seed you wouldn't have uniform bad results. It's the preemerge.


That was my first thought as well but I had weeds out the wazoo this year and I have a 3k wedge that no pre was put on that is slow germinating as well.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

SWB said:


> LawnRat said:
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Prodamine doesn't prevent all weeds. It blocks grassy weeds and a few others.

I'd be willing to bet it has to do with the pre em still being active. I've seeded 4 lawns from scratch and over seeded yearly when I had cool season. I time I had this issue was when I seeded too early based on my pre em app.

You said you applied in Feb and we are here just barely at 5 months and your seed has been down 21 days. If you put it down on 2/1 you may have been good on 7/1. But that assumes you put it down at lowest rate on the bag. Is your spreader calibrated perfectly?

What rate did you use?


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Wfrobinette said:


> SWB said:
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Mine was 1 lb./acre through a boom sprayer I've used for over 10 years. I run 40 gal /acre. I will say the only reason I used the 1 lb rate was because in years past I've always used Dimension and this was my first Prodiamine app. I usually use the max rate the label calls for for any herbicide I use. Maybe that was a blessing in disguise.

Weed pressure this year has been no different than previous years and it's for that reason I'm hesitant to blame everything on the Prodiamine. I still have areas that were not treated with Prodiamine that have been slow to emerge.

What is the longest its taken any of your seed jobs to germinate?


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ENC_Lawn said:


> How much water did you get?
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> Could you walk on the lawn...and leave a mushy shoe print?
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Here's a pic of the side lawn. Doesn't look a lot different than you day 18 pic.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Here's 3 more pics taken today. The soil next to the drive is untreated with anything. Toward the bottom lots of germination. Toward the top by the garage next to nothing.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Give it 2 more weeks...I believe you will be surprised.

My grass seed took off next to my concrete as well...I'm guessing its the extra heat from the concrete.

Also you have a lot of old turf that was not removed....this could be hiding the small sprouts of Bermuda...or could of caused you to lose some germination....I'm not sure.

But I think you will be surprised in 2 weeks how much more Bermuda you have.

Keep us posted!


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Also....I would drop .5 pounds of Nitrogen per 1,000 square feet every 15 days.

Did you use a good starter fertilizer?

If your soil is low in Phosphorus...the germinating seedlings can have a brown or purple color....which makes them really hard to see.

Plus you a lot of old turf you may have more Bermuda than you realize you just can't see it.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

ENC_Lawn said:


> Also....I would drop .5 pounds of Nitrogen per 1,0000 square feet every 15 days.
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> Did you use a good starter fertilizer?
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Thanks....I put down a slow release fert from Site One. My soil is good as I have it tested every 3-4 years.
I'll wait another two weeks and see. I don't know that I have any choice at this point anyways....lol


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Hmmm
Slow release???
But your babygrass needs nitrogen now not a month from now. 
Get some quick release fert and put it down. No need for anymore slow release this year. Your trying to grow in before winter. 
What was your rate that you applied the seed?
My Yukon sprouted in 10-14 days. But I had a lot of problem with weed pressure. 
Trust me if your not getting weeds growing than that absolutly is your problem. I have a strip of lawn that I have been putting off seeding since the spring. I have killed that strip about 6-7 times with a deadly concoction of death. I right now have a bunch of goosegrass and sedges growing. Just think about bird droppings and the wind that carry seed. If you have no weed pressure at all then we have found the issue. It's the premergent. The area around the edges and driveway has growth because 1) it's hotter and preemergents degrade in the heat. 2) more water during rain events - submergence or a lot of runoff can decrease efficacy of the preemergent. 
Bermuda from seed is hard no matter what because of weed pressure. Anyone will tell you that. So if your lawn isn't right now covered in weeds than that is 100% the problem. 
Seed soil contact maybe an issue. It seems like a Harley Rake wasn't used and your seeds could be shaded out by dead grass making germination take longer. I hope this is the case. Did you topdress your seeds? Or roll it to ensure good seed to soil contact. 
What was you phosphorus level. If you have a deficit and didn't apply any during seeding that could aid in slow germination.

Lots of good advice given. But I'm telling you that it doesn't matter how many times you killed the grass and applied roundup. You should have weeds by now.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

If you would have used a Harley Rake then you wouldn't have had to worry about the preemergent because you would have disturbed the barrier. I hope you prove me wrong. I seeded 1/2 an acre so I know how much Yukon costs
What sprinklers and controller do you use for coverage. I'm trying to get sprinkler coverage for my additional acreage.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

That's a good point about the weeds - I see them only along the driveway, where the heat is, not growing all over the yard. Thats a sign for sure that something weird is happening. Because yeah, the weed pressure is intense in my newly seeded lawn, for sure. Like, I almost cried, sure the weeds would fully take over before the grass really got going. As in, 2 hours a day of hand weeding, every day, until I felt comfortable putting down herbicides, and even still I'm dealing with weeds and more weeds.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

I believe the lawn was verticut following kill and during seeding. That should have impacted the prodiamine barrier. I put down 1/2 annual max rate in Feb and did heavy aeration in May and weeds came in almost immediately. Pulling for this to take off.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> If you would have used a Harley Rake then you wouldn't have had to worry about the preemergent because you would have disturbed the barrier. I hope you prove me wrong. I seeded 1/2 an acre so I know how much Yukon costs
> What sprinklers and controller do you use for coverage. I'm trying to get sprinkler coverage for my additional acreage.


I slit seeded with a Classen slit seeder. Apparently not deep enough to break the barrier though.
The slow release was recommended by Hancock which is where I bought the seed.
My sprinkler system is a miriad of 13 sprinklers/ hose/ splitters.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

I think I'm going to have to go along with the majority here and put the blame on the pre. I even went down last night and weighed the Prodiamine I had left in the jug to be sure. I've got some 32-0-8 downstairs I'm going to throw at this week and then just hope for the best. As much as I hate having put in all the work and expense with little to show it;'s not the end of the world. I'll take what ever comes in this year and re-seed again next spring with out the Prodiamine.
I appreciate all who contributed to my dilemma!
Scott


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## SwBermuda (Jun 9, 2019)

we live and learn @SWB We've all had our follies! Best thing is we can always try again and with new and better knowledge!


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

My pre e got me this year for some seeding in the front. It germinated poorly and now it's all dead.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

SwBermuda said:


> we live and learn @SWB We've all had our follies! Best thing is we can always try again and with new and better knowledge!


Aint that the truth! Especially with lawn care. Mother nature has a way of humbling us mere humans, over and over again. We've all made mistakes, and good for you for looking at it as a learning opportunity. We learn more from mistakes than success, right? I sure hope so, I've made my share of mistakes with this lawn thing - the opposite though - not enough weed control versus too much. So next spring, when you don't use the pre-emergent, may I HIGHLY suggest you get yourself some Quicksilver to be ready with! Maybe some quinclorac too. Then you won't have my mistake of watching a blanket of weeds take over half the new lawn.


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> I believe the lawn was verticut following kill and during seeding. That should have impacted the prodiamine barrier. I put down 1/2 annual max rate in Feb and did heavy aeration in May and weeds came in almost immediately. Pulling for this to take off.


Vertical mowing wouldn't be enough to break through the pre-m barrier


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

SWB said:


> I think I'm going to have to go along with the majority here and put the blame on the pre. I even went down last night and weighed the Prodiamine I had left in the jug to be sure. I've got some 32-0-8 downstairs I'm going to throw at this week and then just hope for the best. As much as I hate having put in all the work and expense with little to show it;'s not the end of the world. I'll take what ever comes in this year and re-seed again next spring with out the Prodiamine.
> I appreciate all who contributed to my dilemma!
> Scott


That stuff is strong. My first year using it resulted in a poor fall KBG seeding. I was using dimension prior to that.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Wfrobinette said:


> SWB said:
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> > I think I'm going to have to go along with the majority here and put the blame on the pre. I even went down last night and weighed the Prodiamine I had left in the jug to be sure. I've got some 32-0-8 downstairs I'm going to throw at this week and then just hope for the best. As much as I hate having put in all the work and expense with little to show it;'s not the end of the world. I'll take what ever comes in this year and re-seed again next spring with out the Prodiamine.
> ...


It was my first experience with it as well. I used Dimension for 10 years prior.


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