# How low is "too low"?



## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

I'm trying to figure out the "best" HOC for my new elite KBG lawn. You typically hear about the following "best practices" and I've seen a lot of folks that keep their lawns at 3"+ year round. These days with the elite cultivars, what is considered "too low"?

- higher HOC for weed prevention
- higher HOC for darker color
- higher HOC for healthier, hardier plant

Tell me WHY I would want to go lower and what the tradeoffs are with the elite cultivars. My big fear with going lower is Poa annua/trivialis encroachment. How do those of you that cut at 1-2" keep your yard free of Poa annua and other weeds (I know the obvious response is Pre-M). I'm really looking to increase density/spreading while producing the darkest color and preventing fungus and weed competition.

My lawn was planted in May/June 2017 so it's still a baby but I'm looking to train it at a height that it can appreciate and thrive at. Right now it's at 3 inches and I'm not terribly in love with how it looks at that height but the color is starting to get real dark.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I've been mowing at 2in since mid June after reading Ward, Eric and pete1313 experiences. I think it is still too long and want to drop it to 1.5in. I also have a nomix lawn (but heavy on the kbg).

Weeds? None. PreM (two apps of dimension at 0.25ai/acre each in spring). And then two of prodamine in the fall.

I need to search for a reel mower to try 1in. The main draw back is frequency of mowing to avoid breaking the 1/3 rule. PGR should take care of that.


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

I don't have personal experience but from what I've heard cutting lower actually encourages lateral growth,I.e.density. Lower heights will decrease fungus and increase need to water. Color will be lighter.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

Irrigation isn't a concern of mine if I can ensure success with pre emergents. One of my more specific questions is if there is a threshold people have seen with where a noticeable color loss occurs. Eg from HOC drop of 3" to 2". Or if you have to go below 2" to see any dramatic changes with color. I realize a lot of this is "subject to" so I will have to experiment myself but I am at least trying to set up some guidelines to stay within so I don't create any massive issues.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Irrigation isn't a concern of mine if I can ensure success with pre emergents. One of my more specific questions is if there is a threshold people have seen with where a noticeable color loss occurs. Eg from HOC drop of 3" to 2". Or if you have to go below 2" to see any dramatic changes with color. I realize a lot of this is "subject to" so I will have to experiment myself but I am at least trying to set up some guidelines to stay within so I don't create any massive issues.


From my limited experience with PGR (and reading), it's your low HOC answer to better color. After seeing the low look in prep for my overseed, I'm planning to keep my HGT/Mazama <2" if I can.


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## Eric (Aug 15, 2017)

The grass I have that is healthy has great color at 2.125, thinking of going down a notch and see what happens. I personally think the organic fertilizers(Milo) help maintain the color at lower heights

I tried mowing at 3.25 earlier in the season, and it's just not for me. I would mow and the next day it just looked shaggy, 2.75 was my preferred HOC but as I go lower my opinion is changing


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

fuse, if you haven't already read - Maintaining KBG or PRG at 1".

When I tried a section around my kids playset (HOC @1.5"), the grass definitely lost color but as of right now, it is as green as the surrounding grass that is cut at 3". From what others are saying, the lost of color is because when maintaining higher HOC, the grass has longer "crowns". If you start low, the "crowns" will be shorter and color should be as dark as higher HOCs.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

ericgautier: Thanks - yes I have read that a few times. I'm not looking to go to the extremes ( 1" or lower) but I am trying to understand at what height do you typically start to sacrifice the ability for the grass to effectively fight Poa annua. I have quite a bit of it in my front (northeast) reno and I don't want to exacerbate the issue even though I've used pre-emergent already this late summer/early fall.

g-man: can I ask why you apply prodiamine twice each season? I have not had the greatest success with using prodiamine in the past - it could be my timing or it could be my application rates. Any tips based on your successes with it? The amount of Poa annua I have right now is quite overwhelming. I made it mad (seed) with the frequent apps of Tenacity and realized I had far more than I thought. I don't think I can keep up with pulling it any longer. Do you just trust Tenacity and prodiamine to keep it at bay?

Overall, If I can increase the density by going down to 2" (or slightly lower?) and get a tighter look than at 3" while not really sacrificing density, color, etc. then I will try it. I really need the KBG to be aggressive and fill in while the Pre-M does its job. If I can cut lower (to cut more frequently), my understanding is I am forcing the grass to do exactly that. Right now at 3" I'm cutting every 10 days or so (which I don't think is enough) even with dropping 0.5lb/N every 2 weeks.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> Overall, If I can increase the density by going down to 2" (or slightly lower?) and get a tighter look than at 3" while not really sacrificing density, color, etc. then I will try it.


Try it! :thumbsup: you will increase density and wont sacrifice color... as long as you stay on top of mowing and dont take off too much in one cut. Also Primo and FAS will be your friend and help with color. Here are some pics from my last yard. Compare the color to the neighbors.

April 6, 2015 first spring after renovating. HOC 1.75", cut with a rotory.

















April 25, 2016 2nd spring after reno. HOC 1", cut with a reel.









April 13, 2016 HOC 9/16" with reel









Cutting low will help KBG fill in, but to compete with poa a you will still need to stay on top of pre-m's and tenacity as poa a loves to be cut shorter as well.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Stumbled upon this lawn in boulder CO yesterday. Definatly around 1in hoc.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

fusebox7 said:


> g-man: can I ask why you apply prodiamine twice each season? I have not had the greatest success with using prodiamine in the past - it could be my timing or it could be my application rates. Any tips based on your successes with it? The amount of Poa annua I have right now is quite overwhelming. I made it mad (seed) with the frequent apps of Tenacity and realized I had far more than I thought. I don't think I can keep up with pulling it any longer. Do you just trust Tenacity and prodiamine to keep it at bay?


There is ton of research that a split app is more effective. Purdue had a nice report with different preM, but I can't finding it from the cell phone. Any chemical applied to the lawn will break down over time. A split app adds the benefit of keeping a more constant protection. For Michigan, I would apply in early July and early September to ensure I protect from poa annua. It will take a couple of years with each year getting better (less seeds from less poa that makes it).

Does your yard get hot/dry enough to kill it in the summer? That's part of the long term success. You did a reno and watered, so you help it survive.

I had success with tenacity, but you really need to keep it light and frequent. Too much and it makes it dormant and survives. A crazy idea could be to let the lawn go dormant next year for 2-3 weeks in the peak of summer, to kill most of it after having done a split app of prem in the spring.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

Thanks all - sounds like as long as I stay on top of the mowing (which I'd love to do , irrigation, FAS and start doing split apps of pre-m I'll be in good shape.

g-man: interesting thought about dormancy in the summer. The only thing that worries me with a first year lawn is... well it's a first year lawn. I suppose I'll have to play that one by ear and see what kind of shape I'm in come the start of summer next year. I expect a lot of progress this fall and next spring so that could be an option.

I made the huge mistake of skipping pre-m last fall because of doing a PRG overseed on my no-mix and I ended up with a poa annua yard. Ugh! I think it came back because a lot of it germinated before I got my pre-m down this year so hopefully with another app (soon?) I can head it off for the next couple years. I expect it to get better but realize it will take time.

Sounds like the conventional "mow high" school of thought is for low maintenance regimes hence all of your replies encouraging lower HOC as long as I stay on top of the "must-do's". I'm pretty excited about that.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

g-man said:


> There is ton of research that a split app is more effective. Purdue had a nice report with different preM, but I can't finding it from the cell phone. Any chemical applied to the lawn will break down over time. A split app adds the benefit of keeping a more constant protection. For Michigan, I would apply in early July and early September to ensure I protect from poa annua. It will take a couple of years with each year getting better (less seeds from less poa that makes it).


Once upon a time I saw an old chart that showed the affect of Prodiamine applications on rhizome growth. I suppose the smaller/split apps would have a lesser effect on rhizome growth than the higher apps. I will switch to this regimen now. Thanks for bringing this full circle for me


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

When you guys say low for lateral growth, im assuming this is for *** only? Those of us with Rye lawns would not see the same density increases by chopping low?


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

Anytime you trim top growth from any plant it will encourage new growth. Whether or not it will tiller I'm not sure but plants usually adapt to their growing conditions so if it's repeatedly cut low it may adapt by tillering.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> Also Primo and FAS will be your friend and help with color.


Hey Pete - would you suggest starting the Primo apps now (this fall) or waiting until the appropriate timing via GDD tracker in the spring? FYI I am a little over 90 days after initial seed down on my reno.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

I have no experience with Primo on a new renovation. At my last house I did not start apps until the spring after renovating. I'm not sure if I will put any apps down this year on the new reno or not. There are a few benefits to using it in late fall, but I will need to make sure the young lawn is ready for it first.

As far as FAS, I put it down 85 days after renovating at the last house at a rate of 4 oz/k of FS and 3.4 oz/k of AS with no problems.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> I have no experience with Primo on a new renovation. At my last house I did not start apps until the spring after renovating.


This is what I did also.

I remember reading the manual recommending it also for the PGR (T-Pac E Pro) I am using.

"Apply T-Pac E-Pro MEC Plant Growth Regulator 1-5 days before seeding and before verticutting,
scalping, spiking or other similar operations. The following spring, apply the
recommended upper end rate of T-Pac E-Pro MEC Plant Growth Regulator for the turf type
and setting listed in the Application Rate Table."


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

:thumbup: Thanks guys! I'll hold off until spring with the PGR.


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