# Brand new to lawn care, already have an new issue.



## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Hello all,

Im from a small town in upstate NY. I found this forum a few days ago and am trying to learn how to fix and maintain my lawn, it was never properly taken care of prior to us buying the house. Last fall we had some pines removed from out front yard and the stumps ground, ever since then its been a bare area. This past May I finally got around to putting seed down. I leveled out 3 yards of screened top soil and put down Scotts sun and shade mix (purchased from HD) and then put EZ straw as a cover. Once grass started growing I put down 2 treatments of Scotts basic fertilizer and weed preventer (approx 1 -1.5 months apart). The entire time I watered every morning prior to 730AM and usually again around 4pm. I had a great area of grass growing by the beginning of July, I was actually really impressed with the results knowing nothing about lawn care except to mow the lawn. I had cut that section probably 2-3 times, then we ended up with temps in the 90-100 range up here for a while, minimal rain. Now, its been some type of rain almost every day for the past 2 or 3 weeks. needless to say, my new lawn area now looks like this:







I finally caved and signed up for TruGreen to test and manage this area as well as the invasion of carpetweed on other areas of my front yard. So until they get here, can you guys give me an idea of what might have gone wrong post good grass growth?? Im assuming its some type of fungus or brown patch? Edit: I have a very preliminary plan to rehab the lawn but I need to get this taken care of first.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Grass planted in spring has a smaller root system. It doesn't normally do well in temps above 90. You'll have better success if you plant it in the fall and give it fall, winter, and spring to get established before high temps. Now, if you wanted, you could water it multiple times a day and use a preventive fungicide program to keep it alive through summer and free of fungus but this is a harder and a more advanced approach. Fall seeding is really the best time for cool season grass to survive hot summers. Control the weeds now but be careful with the herbicides. Yes, they'll kill the weeds but most herbicides have a seeding interval of usually a month. Some are up to 3 months. If you are planning to seed in September for example, I would only spray today and wait 30 days before seeding. If you hire a company to manage your weeds, they may keep spraying and it can create a problem for seeding in the fall. If you do it yourself, the herbicide label will state the time to wait for seeding.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Looks like you've got a mixture of cool season grass, dead grass, crabgrass, and possibly sedge. As you've already been told, seeding a cool season lawn in May is a mistake. Roots don't have enough time to develop to make it through the summer heat. May is also the ideal time for crabgrass germination so by watering the new seeds you also germinated the crabgrass seed that was already there. The mistake has already been made (most of us have been there) so it's time to move on and plan ahead.

The crabgrass will die come the first good frost. Your current options are 1-Hand pull it. 2-Just leave it to die with the frost. 3-Hit it with RoundUp. Unless there's a lot more of it than what's in the photo I would just hand pull it.

The one thing that bothers me the most is the light colored patch of grass in the top left of the first photo. To me it looks like some type of sedge and if so that need to be taken care of ASAP. Nuke it with glyphosate as soon as possible.

There appears to be some broadleaf weeds in there too but it's hard to identify for certain from the photo. If so those can we wiped out with Triclopyr (Ortho Clover, Chickweed and Oxalis Killer). These should also be taken out as soon as possible as triclopyr can't be sprayed under 3 weeks before seeding. If your seeding date is in the next 3 weeks you could just RoundUp the braodleaf stuff too. FYI you can spray RoundUp and seed as soon as it's dry.

From there seed it and begin watering. I would strongly recommend a good pre-emergent in the spring to prevent the crabgrass. Prodiamine is what I use.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Just curious but what did you do with the grounded stumps? Did you remove all of the chips or are there some buried in there?

Would buried wood chips cause problems if he seeds in the fall?


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Thank you @ForsheeMS and @Suburban Jungle Life for the responses. Like I said, I hired trugreen to manage my lawn from now until their final application. Should I tell them just to cancel the plan for now since I plan on overseeding within the next month? I was hoping they would come and test the soil and apply whatever needs to be applied to fix that area up. I can live with/ hand pick the crabgrass for now, I just wasn't sure if I should try to fix that area prior to overseeding or just take it as a loss and start over. My initial plan for overseeding was slice seeding considering I do have some form of grass, just some bare patches. ( I am have a sprinkler system installed on the 20th). Then this leads me into Milogranite vs Tenacity, watering times and frequencies and a slew of other questions.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Mozart said:


> Just curious but what did you do with the grounded stumps? Did you remove all of the chips or are there some buried in there?
> 
> Would buried wood chips cause problems if he seeds in the fall?


The wood chips were cleaned up by the tree company, then I doubled over and raked anything they missed up. I think it was as clean as it could be prior to putting the top soil down.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

You can do your own soil test if you would like. The easy one is to use soil savvy which they sell at many home improvement stores or on amazon. It isn't the best one but it is easy. You could also use waypoint analytical or your local extension office to perform a soil test. Either way, you will need to dig out small tubes of soil from about 1"-4" down and from a handful of places in the yard. Mix up the soil and pick out the grass pieces, roots, and any pieces of wood or rocks. Now you have your soil sample which needs to be packaged and sent off to one of those places for testing. We'll be happy to give you feedback on what you need to add if anything to the soil before seeding time.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

Looks like you have a little bit of the seeded grass growing there. You can't make much of a mistake with Milorganite and Tenacity too. Make sure TruGreen knows you intend to seed or just tell them to skip it. You have some grassy weeds there maybe worse stuff than crabgrass. Quinclorac will kill crabgrass and both Quinclorac and Tenacity can be used with little or no delay before seeding. (seven days for quinclorac none for Tenacity) That will wound and turn white most of the undesireable stuff.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

+1 Most folks skip the soil test and it's one of the leading causes of failure in a lawn. At a minimum you need to know pH, phosphorous and potassium levels and make any necessary adjustments. Once you have those dialed in the lawn will do much better. Guessing on this and just throwing stuff down is a really bad idea.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think you are hoping too much from trugreen. Did they comitted to doing a soil test and creating a plan for your soil? They are normally the McDonald's of lawn care. Everyone gets the same thing and not a cooked to order meal.

Your yard needs help based on the images.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> You can do your own soil test if you would like. The easy one is to use soil savvy which they sell at many home improvement stores or on amazon. It isn't the best one but it is easy. You could also use waypoint analytical or your local extension office to perform a soil test. Either way, you will need to dig out small tubes of soil from about 1"-4" down and from a handful of places in the yard. Mix up the soil and pick out the grass pieces, roots, and any pieces of wood or rocks. Now you have your soil sample which needs to be packaged and sent off to one of those places for testing. We'll be happy to give you feedback on what you need to add if anything to the soil before seeding time.


Thank you, I just purchased the Soil Savvy kit yesterday and it will be here on Monday. I will post up the results.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

gene_stl said:


> Looks like you have a little bit of the seeded grass growing there. You can't make much of a mistake with Milorganite and Tenacity too. Make sure TruGreen knows you intend to seed or just tell them to skip it. You have some grassy weeds there maybe worse stuff than crabgrass. Quinclorac will kill crabgrass and both Quinclorac and Tenacity can be used with little or no delay before seeding. (seven days for quinclorac none for Tenacity) That will wound and turn white most of the undesireable stuff.


Youre correct, there are still some very nice patches of green grass growing with no weeds. I think my mistake after doing some more reading here was that I mowed it too low maybe. I have a Husqvarna rider that I set to 2" at the first and subsequent mows. Ive learned that thats probably noy ok, especially with something with a weak root system (new grass) when its 100 degrees.

I called TruGreen yesterday and explained to her my plan to overseed and she said that once they apply everything, I can overseed at about 3 weeks post treatment. She has me down for Aug 24th for my first application. So in the mean time Ive decided I need to dethatch (previous owner never bagged or really cleaned up his lawn) and bring a yard or 2 in of soil and level, then sprinkler installation on the 20th, TruGreen on the 24th, overseed mid Sept.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> +1 Most folks skip the soil test and it's one of the leading causes of failure in a lawn. At a minimum you need to know pH, phosphorous and potassium levels and make any necessary adjustments. Once you have those dialed in the lawn will do much better. Guessing on this and just throwing stuff down is a really bad idea.


When I called TruGreen yesterday to go over a few things, I asked her to add a soil test on and she said thats fine and theres no extra charge. I also ordered a Soil Savvy kit which will be here on Monday. Youre right about guessing as I am seeing my previous weak attempts die off... taking my money with it lol.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> I think you are hoping too much from trugreen. Did they comitted to doing a soil test and creating a plan for your soil? They are normally the McDonald's of lawn care. Everyone gets the same thing and not a cooked to order meal.
> 
> Your yard needs help based on the images.


I did ask for a soil test and she said they will do it and treat as needed per the results. I do have to admit, in my cul de sac of about 7 houses, Its myself and another house that does not get their lawns treated and you can tell. The houses with TruGreen actually have really nice turf with no visible weeds. Im impressed.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Can you get a list of the herbicides they will be using on your lawn when they come to spray?


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Can you get a list of the herbicides they will be using on your lawn when they come to spray?


I can do that, that will be dependent on what they find right? Outside of the crabgrass and carpet weed I can identify.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Try to get a copy of the test results too.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

> I called TruGreen yesterday and explained to her my plan to overseed and she said that once they apply everything, I can overseed at about 3 weeks post treatment. She has me down for Aug 24th for my first application. So in the mean time Ive decided I need to dethatch (previous owner never bagged or really cleaned up his lawn) and bring a yard or 2 in of soil and level, then sprinkler installation on the 20th, TruGreen on the 24th, overseed mid Sept.


I've never really understood why people feel the need to dethatch every year. I never bag, side discharge only, and chop up a ton of leaves every fall. Grass clippings don't cause thatch. Right now I can pick any spot in my lawn and part the grass and see soil and most of my lawn is extremely thick. What does cause thatch is fertilizing and watering too often.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> > I called TruGreen yesterday and explained to her my plan to overseed and she said that once they apply everything, I can overseed at about 3 weeks post treatment. She has me down for Aug 24th for my first application. So in the mean time Ive decided I need to dethatch (previous owner never bagged or really cleaned up his lawn) and bring a yard or 2 in of soil and level, then sprinkler installation on the 20th, TruGreen on the 24th, overseed mid Sept.
> 
> 
> I've never really understood why people feel the need to dethatch every year. I never bag, side discharge only, and chop up a ton of leaves every fall. Grass clippings don't cause thatch. Right now I can pick any spot in my lawn and part the grass and see soil and most of my lawn is extremely thick. What does cause thatch is fertilizing and watering too often.


I have the opposite issue.... I can pick any spot on my lawn, except for the patch I re-seeded and grab a pinch full of thatch. The majority of the lawn I cannot see soil, even where there are bare spots. The only thing I can see is the tan, brown thatch. And this will be the first lawn I dethatch, Ive never done it before. But I also bag. Shouldnt I clear that thatch out prior to overseeding (slice seeder)?? Its been this way since I purchased the house. Like I said, I am brand new to this.... and if I can skip a step and save some time and money thats fine with me!


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

g-man said:


> Try to get a copy of the test results too.


Will do and Ill post them up.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

My understanding is that thatch is made up of the stemmy parts of the grass. If you have the leafy parts which have dried and turned brown after you cut the grass, that isn't thatch. Thatch develops in grasses which spread. So, if you have a warm season grass or if you have KBG, they develop thatch over time from their rhizomes and stolons. Fescue and Rye don't develop thatch since they don't spread and create an intertwined mat of stolons.

As for clearing the brown layer or whatever you want to call the leafy parts, that is only needed if you want to expose the soil surface when seeding. If you use a slice seeder, then you don't need to do this step since it places the seed below the soil surface so you have good seed to soil contact.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I agree with Suburban Jungle Life. Thatch buildup depends on grass type and the cultural practices / pesticide programs used. I've got TTTF and core aerate every Fall. No thatch issues. I plan to introduce KBG (standard 90/10 mix and see what of the KBG makes it) so maybe will have more thatch going forward.

https://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/thatch


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

> I have the opposite issue.... I can pick any spot on my lawn, except for the patch I re-seeded and grab a pinch full of thatch. The majority of the lawn I cannot see soil, even where there are bare spots. The only thing I can see is the tan, brown thatch. And this will be the first lawn I dethatch, Ive never done it before. But I also bag. Shouldnt I clear that thatch out prior to overseeding (slice seeder)?? Its been this way since I purchased the house. Like I said, I am brand new to this.... and if I can skip a step and save some time and money thats fine with me!


From what you are describing that's just dead grass. Thatch is a layer of dead stuff that builds up at the soil surface. It usually comes from excessive nitrogen and watering although there can be other causes. In a healthy soil structure the microbes break this stuff down long before it has a chance to build up and become a problem.

If it's just patches of dead grass I would cut those areas as low as possible and bag the clippings. Whatever is left will actually help to hold the seed in place and eventually will decay and go back into the soil.

I've never done slice seeding and have never seen a good reason to. Not saying it's bad, just seems like a lot of extra work without extra benefit. For overseeding/seeding bare areas I just go over it with an aerator, drop the seed, and then roll it in. You can rent a lawn roller but I just use the tires on my mower. Any riding mower will have enough weight to press the seed into the soil.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I just assumed any dead, brown, dry grass sitting on the soil was thatch. So I think I can skip the dethatching and just mow low to pick that stuff up. Now I have a couple of questions for my seed buying/seed type. Im looking on seedsuperstore.com, its asking shade or no shade for example. My lawn starts in the shade then by 11-12 its it complete sun, then obviously as the sun goes down, the lawn becomes shaded again. Am I good with either shade or no shade or should I go with a no shade seed? Next is what should I go with, TTTF, or KBG. Ive read here that a mix will make the grass fuller, thicker. I also know that KBG grows slower so it will not match up with the existing lawn for the rest of this season. Im currently leaning towards seed superstores SS5000 sunny mixture https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100002/ss5000-sunny-mixture .


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

That's all up to you. I have no experience with chewings fescue. Why not just go with straight kbg? https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100006/ss1100-bluegrass-blend
That will do fine in sun and shade.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Budstl said:


> That's all up to you. I have no experience with chewings fescue. Why not just go with straight kbg? https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100006/ss1100-bluegrass-blend
> That will do fine in sun and shade.


I guess the only reason why I didnt want to go with straight-up KBG is because of the slow growth or germination rate compared to the existing lawn? Or am I getting too ahead of myself? That sod quality KBG looks good.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Soil Savvy soil went out today. Should have results in a week or so.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Here are the results from my Soil Savvy test. I took this sample from the brown area in the above pictures. I did post this in the the soil fertility section but have gotten no input.



I also had my first TruGreen experience today after signing up in the beginning of the month and it was a Grub app. Ive never used TruGreen before, or had any type of grub control experience for that matter.When the tech arrived he activated my cameras on my house so I was able to see him in action. I have approx 11k sqft (per trugreen), his summary states he applied 42lbs of Merit broadcasted. My front lawn is shaped like a "U" with my house in the middle. He made 1 pass across the front of the house, closest to the house, then he drove down the middle of the lawn to the other side of U and I lost him on my camera. He started the treatment at 12:14 and was on my front porch by 12:23 placing the invoice. This was his service summary,



So based on watching the cameras, I checked out the lawn when I got home from work and just as I expected, there were large areas of no coverage at all and areas where the Merit wasnt evenly spread. So I called trugreen and expressed my concern. I was told that the tech will be back by the end of the day to finish the job, this was at around 2:30. So I went about my day, letting the dogs out into the backyard where I noticed tire tracks in the grass and white granules. He applied Merit to the backyard as well after me specifically telling TruGreen I only want the front yard done because of the dogs etc... So I hustled the dogs back inside and called trugreen right back, I was concerned for their safety and actually pretty angry. And I was also concerned that they factored my backyard into the pricing! The woman was very apologetic and said that the regional supervisor was going to call me back. Well here we are, Saturday morning. The tech never came back and the regional supervisor never called me.

So after my first TruGreen experience it will be my last based on the entire experience from customer service to laziness on the techs part. I refuse to pay good money for half a job and poor customer service. I will hire a local guy or just take care of it myself with all of your help.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Your PH looks good. I would go ahead and use a balanced fertilizer this year. Something like a 10-10-10 at 1 lb of N/M each month while the grass is growing before it gets cold. This will bring up your P and K in the soil. You can also apply an app or two of a micro nutrient package if you wish to help bring up the other micros. If your grass is green, then even though they are low, it might not be low enough to affect the grass so then maybe not bother with that. Start with the fert though. Retest next year in the early spring before you apply anything to see where you are at with your soil. Maybe consider using waypoint or logan labs next year to test. Soil savvy doesn't disclose their type of testing so it isn't easy to make specific recommendations.


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## SPB903 (Aug 8, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Your PH looks good. I would go ahead and use a balanced fertilizer this year. Something like a 10-10-10 at 1 lb of N/M each month while the grass is growing before it gets cold. This will bring up your P and K in the soil. You can also apply an app or two of a micro nutrient package if you wish to help bring up the other micros. If your grass is green, then even though they are low, it might not be low enough to affect the grass so then maybe not bother with that. Start with the fert though. Retest next year in the early spring before you apply anything to see where you are at with your soil. Maybe consider using waypoint or logan labs next year to test. Soil savvy doesn't disclose their type of testing so it isn't easy to make specific recommendations.


Thanks Suburban, I will use a different testing co. next year for sure, The green grass is green so I think I am ok. I will see what my new lawn guy says as far as balancing prior to overseed.

On another note, I am constantly going over my plan for my overseed. I plan on renting a slice seeder. Will immediately broadcasting stater fert suffice? I mean when I spread the starter fert, will the fert actually enter the slits where the seed is or is that not something I have to worry about? And if I need to get the fert down into the slit, can that be done by rolling (am I thinking too much into this?)


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

SPB903 said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > Your PH looks good. I would go ahead and use a balanced fertilizer this year. Something like a 10-10-10 at 1 lb of N/M each month while the grass is growing before it gets cold. This will bring up your P and K in the soil. You can also apply an app or two of a micro nutrient package if you wish to help bring up the other micros. If your grass is green, then even though they are low, it might not be low enough to affect the grass so then maybe not bother with that. Start with the fert though. Retest next year in the early spring before you apply anything to see where you are at with your soil. Maybe consider using waypoint or logan labs next year to test. Soil savvy doesn't disclose their type of testing so it isn't easy to make specific recommendations.
> ...


If you buy synthetic starter fert, something like a 20-24-4, then it is water soluble. Slit seed, fert, and keep it well watered. Damp without runoff. Ideally, watered a few minutes at 7am,11,3,7. The fert will dissolve and sit in the soil. As for slit seeding, I like to do it at half rate and in a cross pattern (2 passes, like a grid) so you don't get rows of grass after it grows. Also, I like to cut it low, around 2" or 1.75" before using the slit seeder. It gives the new seeds some time to grow without competing with the old grass.


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