# Jagermeister Georgia spring renovation plans



## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

All, I am planning to re-grade my fescue section in the backyard. The are steep hills and valleys, roots, bumps, etc and so I am thinking about renting a dingo to regrade and then reseed. I would like to do that this winter and address some drainage issues at the same time. I know it is risky to do a reno in the spring but I may not have much of a choice as a I really need to address the drainage issues ASAP.

Being in North Atlanta and last frost potentially in March, when would you recommend doing the reno to give me the best chance of surviving the summer heat? Late February? Thanks!


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> All, I am planning to re-grade my fescue section in the backyard. The are steep hills and valleys, roots, bumps, etc and so I am thinking about renting a dingo to regrade and then reseed. I would like to do that this winter and address some drainage issues at the same time. I know it is risky to do a reno in the spring but I may not have much of a choice as a I really need to address the drainage issues ASAP.
> 
> Being in North Atlanta and last frost potentially in March, when would you recommend doing the reno to give me the best chance of surviving the summer heat? Late February? Thanks!


I know you're in Georgia and i'm in Wisconsin, but... I did a small 200sf reno in the spring a few years back with 80/20 kbg/rye mix and it came in decently. I think the KBG has since filled in.

My approach was, "spring isn't ideal, but i needed to take a tree stump/roots out. If it didn't work great in the spring, I would hit it up again in the fall". You can always plant more seed. my 2cents, good luck.

Being in Georgia, are you warm season, cool season or "transition zone"?


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

steffen707 said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> > All, I am planning to re-grade my fescue section in the backyard. The are steep hills and valleys, roots, bumps, etc and so I am thinking about renting a dingo to regrade and then reseed. I would like to do that this winter and address some drainage issues at the same time. I know it is risky to do a reno in the spring but I may not have much of a choice as a I really need to address the drainage issues ASAP.
> ...


Thanks. I was thinking the same that I can always overseed in the fall. Yes, I am in the transition zone (believe 7a). For you spring reno, what month did you do it? Did you wait until after frost / freeze risk went away?


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## zeroibis (Sep 28, 2020)

Jagermeister said:


> All, I am planning to re-grade my fescue section in the backyard. The are steep hills and valleys, roots, bumps, etc and so I am thinking about renting a dingo to regrade and then reseed. I would like to do that this winter and address some drainage issues at the same time. I know it is risky to do a reno in the spring but I may not have much of a choice as a I really need to address the drainage issues ASAP.
> 
> Being in North Atlanta and last frost potentially in March, when would you recommend doing the reno to give me the best chance of surviving the summer heat? Late February? Thanks!


I just did one this past summer. In my case I had a lot of ivy that also got pulled out. However, even after all the stumps were ground and ivy removed there was just decades of stuff in there. Hit massive roots feet in width trying to lay irrigation pipe that I had to work around. Then trying to remove the millions of pine cones from the top layer of soil along with all the ivy roots took weeks. I used a landscaping rake to pull the debris from the top layer of soil and filled about 18+ wheelbarrows full of sticks, roots, pinecones and mulch. In my case I tried to smooth out the yard as best I could but given I am not cutting really low so I focused on not missing my mid October seeding target. I ended up bringing in about 20,000lbs of soil to correct some erosion issues on my hill that had formed over the last 40 years and used the same truck to compact it down. I ended up with landscapers mix as my fill because they had no top soil but the hard part now is I have basically 3 soil types in my yard: landscapers mix, decomposed pine straw clay, red clay. I likely should have topdressed the whole thing with some more landscapers mix but they had run out of that too by the time I was finishing the patch and I used the last 2 yards of it they had as back fill for some plantings. The good news is that when I was digging I did not come across any grubs, only a lot of earthworms so the soil in that regard was looking good.


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## zeroibis (Sep 28, 2020)

Is it safe to do a 3rd round of tenacity or are you better off using something else that that point. The POA pressure is strong in GA but I do not want to apply pre-M too early on baby grass. Not sure what is less stressful.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

zeroibis said:


> Is it safe to do a 3rd round of tenacity or are you better off using something else that that point. The POA pressure is strong in GA but I do not want to apply pre-M too early on baby grass. Not sure what is less stressful.


Prodiamine is safe 60 days after seeding. Any negative side effects on baby grass is minimal compared to potential pressure from Poa.

Bottom line is, your grass will be fine if you apply prodiamine.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

@Jagermeister How large of an area are you talking about? And how much direct sunlight on this area?

Can you lay sod? If you are in a major regrade project what's a few more hundred dollars for sod? Again, depends on the size of the area. Maybe sod some of the more direct sunlight areas and seed the shaded areas.

March 15 is about the same annual last frost date for me too but it could be earlier so be prepared as you might get a jump on it.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Old Hickory said:


> @Jagermeister How large of an area are you talking about? And how much direct sunlight on this area?
> 
> Can you lay sod? If you are in a major regrade project what's a few more hundred dollars for sod? Again, depends on the size of the area. Maybe sod some of the more direct sunlight areas and seed the shaded areas.
> 
> March 15 is about the same annual last frost date for me too but it could be earlier so be prepared as you might get a jump on it.


Not too large of an area, probably around 4000 sqf. It is mostly shade, which is why I have the fescue there vs. bermuda. It is in the back section of the yard so turf quality isn't the highest priority, more cost.

If last average frost is mid-March, would it be too risky to plan for a March 1 seeding? Will the potential frost kill the seedlings?


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

I don't know what frost does to seed. I would use March 15 as a guide then monitor your soil temps and the 15-day weather forecast to pinpoint a drop seed date. I don't think a week here or there matters.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jagermeister said:


> steffen707 said:
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> > Jagermeister said:
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I think it was early May, frost was definately gone, no snow on the ground.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Old Hickory said:


> I don't know what frost does to seed. I would use March 15 as a guide then monitor your soil temps and the 15-day weather forecast to pinpoint a drop seed date. I don't think a week here or there matters.


I believe in the north, people will throw seed down when the grass has already gone dormant, and then once spring hits, the seeds will germinate. In the north, the seeds will be covered by snow, so animals can't easily eat the seeds. In a transitional area I could see this as being a problem. (Birds eating your seed for months until spring)

I believe its called "dormant seeding" may want to look into that.


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## Utk03analyst (Jun 8, 2019)

I'm a little farther north, Nashville, I agree with everything that's been said around soil temps. I've had to mow my TTTF as late as the 15th of December some years so our weather can be very different year to year. But I believe your window will be around Mid March to Mid April.

Someone else may have a study to support but from my recollection frost won't hurt seed but may damage baby grass that has just germinated. I've seeded in May and about 50% of it survived the summer. My main issue was a weak fungicide plan. It can survive but you have to get water down at the right times and have a strong fungicide plan. I think your shade will add to your fungus pressure.

Lastly, no matter how evenly I seed, or how perfectly I grade seed always moves so I would consider slit seeding or using germination blankets to prevent having to reseed bare spots closer to summer. Germination blankets have given me the most even germination but can get pricey. Tackifier helps but the germination still wasn't as even as using the blankets.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Utk03analyst said:


> I'm a little farther north, Nashville, I agree with everything that's been said around soil temps. I've had to mow my TTTF as late as the 15th of December some years so our weather can be very different year to year. But I believe your window will be around Mid March to Mid April.
> 
> Someone else may have a study to support but from my recollection frost won't hurt seed but may damage baby grass that has just germinated. I've seeded in May and about 50% of it survived the summer. My main issue was a weak fungicide plan. It can survive but you have to get water down at the right times and have a strong fungicide plan. I think your shade will add to your fungus pressure.
> 
> Lastly, no matter how evenly I seed, or how perfectly I grade seed always moves so I would consider slit seeding or using germination blankets to prevent having to reseed bare spots closer to summer. Germination blankets have given me the most even germination but can get pricey. Tackifier helps but the germination still wasn't as even as using the blankets.


Thanks, much appreciated!


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## zeroibis (Sep 28, 2020)

Harts said:


> zeroibis said:
> 
> 
> > Is it safe to do a 3rd round of tenacity or are you better off using something else that that point. The POA pressure is strong in GA but I do not want to apply pre-M too early on baby grass. Not sure what is less stressful.
> ...


Just to check, is this also the case if I have not needed to cut yet? The label says you need to have 60 days or two cuts whichever is longer but that is not going to happen for months due to the unusually high number of overcast days and colder weather in November. In fact I have gotten most of my growth in December when the temperatures warmed up and the sun came out.

Lastly, would Dithiopyr granular be safe or is it better that I use prodiamine? I know the two are often interchangeable along with Pendimethalin but wanted to check if it needs to be prodiamine explicitly.

Thank you so much for the help!


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

zeroibis said:


> Harts said:
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> 
> > zeroibis said:
> ...


You can use either. What was your seed down date?


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## zeroibis (Sep 28, 2020)

Harts said:


> zeroibis said:
> 
> 
> > Harts said:
> ...


Nice,

Seed down date was 10/15 
First sign of new grass was on 10/23

I got small patches where you think the grass has been there for years and is at 4" and took a light cut and other areas where it has not changed much since germination. I got areas where the grass is very dark green and other areas where it is a yellowish green. I also have tips of grass turning yellow with possible signs of fungus prompting an application of 0.5oz per 1k of Propiconazole on 12/5. Application was made to wet grass and it rained .34" the following day.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Ok. So I have been doing a lot of research on my situation and I think I have three options. I will definitely be renting the Dingo to address my drainage issues and then use this also to regrade the fescue section (including removing roots, moss, etc). I did a fall seeding to cover a lot of bare spots and had washouts so had to add annual ryegrass for erosion control as it was really late in the season. After a lot of reading on TLF, it sounds like the ryegrass is considered a weed and will drop seed so now concerned about this (thanks @g-man and @Harts. Also, I would like to put down an elite TTTF seed, which will cost $$$. Now knowing that a spring reno is likely to mostly fail (might be lucky to have 50% of the lawn survive I guess?).

Option 1:
Keep the existing grass, seed over the bare spots following the grading with more annual ryegrass (I still have seed left over), and try to suppress seedhead production with a PGR like Proxy and TNex). Do full renovation in September with elite TTTF. Issue would be the cost of the PGR.

Option 2:
Keep existing grass except maybe kill off the annual ryegrass (to eliminate seeds), overseed / seed bare spots with either cheap TTTF or perenial ryegrass in spring. Do full renovation in September with elite TTTF.

Option 3:
Do full reno in Spring and plant the elite TTTF and plan to overseed in September. Issue with this is basically the cost of the elite TTTF and assuming more than half will not survive and paying a lot more for the seed. This is probably the highest cost option but at least you know you eliminate the weed seed risk.

Appreciate your thoughts on this!


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## SteelCutLawn (Jul 12, 2021)

I know you've gotten feedback from guys with a lot more knowledge than me but I like the sounds of option 2 or 3. With option 2 you don't have to deal with the annual rye or at least minimize what you have to deal with and can have a decent looking yard to work with for the season before reno. With option 3, a spring reno can be risky especially with expensive elite seed but would it make sense to potentially pre-germinate to reduce the likelihood of seed loss?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I don't know GA weather other than it's hotter than Toronto. So I can't suggest timing in terms of what month; but:

Option 4:

Keep what you have in the Spring. Use the Summer to get a complete kill and plant your need seed late Summer/Early Fall. You will want to do multiple rounds of glyphosate and the Summer gives you more time.


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

Harts said:


> I don't know GA weather other than it's hotter than Toronto. So I can't suggest timing in terms of what month; but:
> 
> Option 4:
> 
> Keep what you have in the Spring. Use the Summer to get a complete kill and plant your need seed late Summer/Early Fall. You will want to do multiple rounds of glyphosate and the Summer gives you more time.


@Harts , thanks for your input. I am not that experienced with renos so thinking I am not understanding. 
For Option 4, how would I prevent the existing annual rye from dropping seed? Also, when I regrade, are you suggesting I don't plant any cover grass to prevent erosion until I do the full reno in the Fall?


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## Jagermeister (May 18, 2021)

I am finding that there is no such thing as cheap seed without the risk of weed seeds or annual ryegrass seeds anyway. I am now thinking about doing option 1 and mainly keep what I have, plant annual rye on the bare spots for erosion control, and then use glyphosate to chemical mow and prevent seedheads as the cheapest option. I will then do a full reno in the fall.

Does anyone know when it would be best to start chemical mowing and how often it needs to be reapplied? I was thinking maybe May and do two monthly apps and then go to burn-down rates in August to prep for seeding in September.

Thoughts?


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## Utk03analyst (Jun 8, 2019)

Jagermeister said:


> I am finding that there is no such thing as cheap seed without the risk of weed seeds or annual ryegrass seeds anyway. I am now thinking about doing option 1 and mainly keep what I have, plant annual rye on the bare spots for erosion control, and then use glyphosate to chemical mow and prevent seedheads as the cheapest option. I will then do a full reno in the fall.
> 
> Does anyone know when it would be best to start chemical mowing and how often it needs to be reapplied? I was thinking maybe May and do two monthly apps and then go to burn-down rates in August to prep for seeding in September.
> 
> Thoughts?


I would leverage the economies of scale and buy a 50# bag of TTTF, I don't think rye will survive the Atlanta summer, it didn't survive the Nashville summer in the craptastic mix the builder put in my back yard. I think you will get more than a 50% survival rate with proper care and then you will have more than enough seed to overseed in the fall. Here is what happened to me.

Seed down 4/29/2020 so late do to builder tearing out the driveway and me putting in irrigation by hand.



5/18/2020. Pretty even coverage and why I feel strongly about germination blankets but understand they are expensive.



5/28/2020 still good



8/14/2020



I believe if I had of dropped seed late Feb early March the extra months of root growth would have help. Along with stepping up my fungicide program for this area.

You have months to figure it out don't over think it. Pick a plan when the time comes and pull the trigger you still have the fall. But I would buy a 50# bag, seed prices have nearly doubled here in Nashville but the price per # on a 50# bag is why I always go with the big bags but I get a hefty discount at site one.


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