# Is it just me?



## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

So I'd like your opinion if I am being unreasonable. I mean that sincerely.


I called around to different business here in the DFW area inquiring about sod last week, and found a legit business that offered an average price on the sod, and a good price on install.

I leveled the yard down to soil with no grass or weeds left, and they agreed to do additional minor leveling if needed for $200 install on a 750 sq foot yard.

I repeatedly told the owner the level was very important as I want to mow at 1/2 inch (4 times to be exact)
He kept saying no problem

He sent his brother out to do it rather than himself, and I knew instantly I was not a fan of his brother. He was way too laid back about the job and leveling it and he had that air of just not caring. I explained to him I am OCD and looking to have it done right - even if I needed to pay extra up front to be fair to them. I was willing to pay - I just wanted it done right.

I explained to him about the level, tweaking the level now if needed, and making sure there was gradual grading from the higher sod into the driveway and sidewalk.

I even went out several times to check on the work and asked him to correct.

I texted the owner and said his brother wasn't leveling, could he make sure he talk to him so that I am able to mow low. He said I was being unreasonable and only golf courses "do crazy things to be able to mow low, not homeowners". This was a sudden change of tune from our earlier texts.

When done, I paid him and then after he left I noticed he sodded over the in ground sprinkler valve boxes even though I had them marked with flags and pointed them out to him prior to him starting.

I noticed he had a sharp 45 degree angle into the driveway and sidewalk rather than a gradual grade so I would scrape my mower. It was a lazy job.

I noticed overall a poor job in which I have spent every day of the last week pulling up sod and rearranging myself.

I reached out to the owner yesterday and explained I was unhappy with one section, I was willing to pay him to fix it, and how much would it be. I was figuring like $100 or something. He wanted $250 for the 1 hour at most of work.
I told him I felt that to be excessive, that I could hire any landscape/mowing crew my neighbors all use for $100 at most. He said "OK" and just didn't seem interested in making it right. I also told him about his brother sodding over marked covers, and he did not care.

I felt I was being fair offering to pay for him to come fix what he should have done right the first time, and admittedly I should have caught. Also, at least 4 times I told him how important the level was and I was willing to pay upfront extra if that meant a better job.

Am I looking at this the wrong way?

I ended up fixing the last part myself this morning. My wife is on the neighborhood committee here. Everyone has been asking about our sod (as they are all very nosey) and who we used. He could have scored 50 jobs easy in this neighborhood on her recommendation. Clearly that won't be happening now. I also work in the real estate industry and could have set him up with a year's worth of work easily if he showed he cared even a bit.

Are my expectations unreasonable? I can't wait for the sod to take so I can do my first level job on it. Overall I am not very pleased with it and kinda annoyed.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

I'd be the same way, I'd probably call him back and tell him his brother and work ethic cost him 50 installs in the community.


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## Myricia (Apr 19, 2018)

It's definitely no just you. I had a similar issue with my irrigation installer last year. Sadly sometimes people aren't passionate about their work.


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## Jimefam (Jun 22, 2018)

The only unreasonable part was paying him for work that was not done as agreed. Unfortunately I now feel most people are shit at what they do and are not worth the time effort and money for most things around the house. I now try and do everything I can myself.


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## bp2878 (Feb 13, 2019)

Not unreasonable at all. They agreed to a service they didnt provide. Stuff like this brings out the only good thing I have found about social media. Every time I get screwed on something, I post all about it on the companies facebook, and whatever else I can find. Although I know I wont get my money back or get it done right, It may hit them in the pocket a little bit and prevent someone else the stress. Makes me feel a little better about it.


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## Dawg1419 (Jun 26, 2019)

Jimefam said:


> The only unreasonable part was paying him for work that was not done as agreed. Unfortunately I now feel most people are s--- at what they do and are not worth the time effort and money for most things around the house. I now try and do everything I can myself.


I don't understand why people pay when not satisfied. It's an easy fix. You do it right or don't get paid. I lay sod weekly. The only mistake the op made is paying before the job was complete to his satisfaction. I had a new roof put on weeks ago. I still have $2700.00 of theirs. I'm not happy and they haven't got all their money. I'm still waiting as it's costing me nothing.


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## ctrav (Aug 18, 2018)

Dawg1419 said:


> Jimefam said:
> 
> 
> > The only unreasonable part was paying him for work that was not done as agreed. Unfortunately I now feel most people are s--- at what they do and are not worth the time effort and money for most things around the house. I now try and do everything I can myself.
> ...


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Dawg1419 said:


> Jimefam said:
> 
> 
> > The only unreasonable part was paying him for work that was not done as agreed. Unfortunately I now feel most people are s--- at what they do and are not worth the time effort and money for most things around the house. I now try and do everything I can myself.
> ...


Honestly, after staring at 4 weeks of dirt and mud fighting with seed and washout from the rains and storms when I first went out at the end it looked infinitely better.

It wasn't until after he left and I really looked hard and close the next day that I began to see the issues.

I acknowledge I should have looked closer.

And honestly, neither he nor his brother really cared whether I liked the job or not. I told him point black about the business I could bring him, and he just didn't care.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

bp2878 said:


> Not unreasonable at all. They agreed to a service they didnt provide. Stuff like this brings out the only good thing I have found about social media. Every time I get screwed on something, I post all about it on the companies facebook, and whatever else I can find. Although I know I wont get my money back or get it done right, It may hit them in the pocket a little bit and prevent someone else the stress. Makes me feel a little better about it.


Find their social media and post away.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

ThomasPI said:


> bp2878 said:
> 
> 
> > Not unreasonable at all. They agreed to a service they didnt provide. Stuff like this brings out the only good thing I have found about social media. Every time I get screwed on something, I post all about it on the companies facebook, and whatever else I can find. Although I know I wont get my money back or get it done right, It may hit them in the pocket a little bit and prevent someone else the stress. Makes me feel a little better about it.
> ...


Honestly, I just don't need to start a pissing war with him. He clearly doesn't care about his reputation. I'll just make sure that I never send business to Jeff (owner) or John (brother) and make sure every single person I have the ability to influence will know the story.


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## Tmank87 (Feb 13, 2019)

Dawg1419 said:


> Jimefam said:
> 
> 
> > The only unreasonable part was paying him for work that was not done as agreed. Unfortunately I now feel most people are s--- at what they do and are not worth the time effort and money for most things around the house. I now try and do everything I can myself.
> ...


Nailed it. Once they're paid, you resort to begging and pleading.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

I just checked their facebook and yelp pages. Only a couple of review. Here is his website: https://northdallastree.com/about-north-dallas-tree-sod/


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## JRS 9572 (May 28, 2018)

I'm glad the economy is roaring. But it's 1998 all over again. Many folks have the attitude.."Don't like my work? I've got 10 other people lined up to hand me their money." When the worm turns like 2008.....they'll get what's coming to them. Because that's where the wheat and the chaff are separated.


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## Chocolate Lab (Jun 8, 2019)

JRS 9572 said:


> I'm glad the economy is roaring. But it's 1998 all over again. Many folks have the attitude.."Don't like my work? I've got 10 other people lined up to hand me their money." When the worm turns like 2008.....they'll get what's coming to them. Because that's where the wheat and the chaff are separated.


Bingo, that was my first thought as well. Especially in a city growing exponentially like DFW.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Chocolate Lab said:


> JRS 9572 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm glad the economy is roaring. But it's 1998 all over again. Many folks have the attitude.."Don't like my work? I've got 10 other people lined up to hand me their money." When the worm turns like 2008.....they'll get what's coming to them. Because that's where the wheat and the chaff are separated.
> ...


Regardless North Dallas Tree & Sod will never get my positive recommendation.


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## Dawg1419 (Jun 26, 2019)

JRS 9572 said:


> I'm glad the economy is roaring. But it's 1998 all over again. Many folks have the attitude.."Don't like my work? I've got 10 other people lined up to hand me their money." When the worm turns like 2008.....they'll get what's coming to them. Because that's where the wheat and the chaff are separated.


And that worm will turn. May not be tomorrow but it's a turning. That's why I'm sending 2 payments a month to the bank. I will have this house paid off in 70 more payments. Save your money fellas


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## FlowRider (Apr 7, 2019)

Here is a suggestion. It is a concept called retainage. You make an agreement (orally, or preferably, in writing) that he will do the work, you will pay him 50% when he shows up with the sod and tools to start and actually begins the work, and you will pay him the other 50% at the end if you are satisfied with the work he did.

If not, you retain the 50% until he finishes the job the way you and he agreed it would be done. He will finish it right then....

This is done all the time with construction contracts. You pay in 10% increments, and hold the last 10% for punch list items....


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## WDE46 (Mar 11, 2019)

If you're dissatisfied, you're dissatisfied. You're well within reason here. I think he misled you into higher expectations than what you were paying for. $200 seems pretty cheap. Your response that you could have people come out to fix it for cheaper was kind of silly. I'm sure he was like "Okay so do that then." Also don't try to be tough guy "I COULDVE GOT YOU SO MUCH BUSINESS." Most sales leads result in practically nothing. Your word is probably worth a couple sales at most TBH. Playing that card is douchey.

Live and learn. Don't pay in full up front. That was the big thing here.



FlowRider said:


> Here is a suggestion. It is a concept called retainage. You make an agreement (orally, or preferably, in writing) that he will do the work, you will pay him 50% when he shows up with the sod and tools to start and actually begins the work, and you will pay him the other 50% at the end if you are satisfied with the work he did.
> 
> If not, you retain the 50% until he finishes the job the way you and he agreed it would be done. He will finish it right then....
> 
> This is done all the time with construction contracts. You pay in 10% increments, and hold the last 10% for punch list items....


It's SOP in any industry. You don't pay your suppliers everything up front or there is ZERO incentive. You pay them some to help with the costs they will incur to get going. You pay them the rest upon deliver of whatever you ordered.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

WDE46 said:


> If you're dissatisfied, you're dissatisfied. You're well within reason here. I think he misled you into higher expectations than what you were paying for. $200 seems pretty cheap. Your response that you could have people come out to fix it for cheaper was kind of silly. I'm sure he was like "Okay so do that then." Also don't try to be tough guy "I COULDVE GOT YOU SO MUCH BUSINESS." Most sales leads result in practically nothing. Your word is probably worth a couple sales at most TBH. Playing that card is douchey.
> 
> Live and learn. Don't pay in full up front. That was the big thing here.
> 
> ...


I told him up front the truth - we are going to have 30 homes this year that will need to be sodded. I am too busy to play vendor games - if he did right by us on my personal home, he was guaranteed that business. That's not being douchy - that's fact.

I didn't pay him up front.

Telling him his $250 was ridiculous especially where he charged me $200 for the entire lawn, was not silly.

Those 30 don't include what I could have gotten him in the neighborhood.


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

I gotta be honest here. The fault lies on both parties, in my opinion.

You're self proclaimed OCD is probably part of the reason for the poor service or the cause for the inflated price for the 2nd visit. Most likely their view of you as a customer is you're not going to be satisfied no matter what they do and have no reason to continue that relationship unless they're going to make a good margin.

My father always said, if you want it done right (or to your expectations), you gotta do it yourself. I can't help but say this is exactly the reason why i believe it. You should have bit the bullet and taken care of it yourself


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Kicker said:


> I gotta be honest here. The fault lies on both parties, in my opinion.
> 
> You're self proclaimed OCD is probably part of the reason for the poor service or the cause for the inflated price for the 2nd visit. Most likely their view of you as a customer is you're not going to be satisfied no matter what they do and have no reason to continue that relationship unless they're going to make a good margin.
> 
> My father always said, if you want it done right (or to your expectations), you gotta do it yourself. I can't help but say this is exactly the reason why i believe it. You should have bit the bullet and taken care of it yourself


Fair enough.

However 4 times I told him I needed it level as I was gong to cut at 1/2" prior to the job starting. Four times he said no problem. Only when I called them out when they were doing the he said that was only golf courses do that and it's not reasonable.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

I would have been extremely weary about the overall price. That is absurdly low although I don't know all circumstances. A pallet of sod dang near costs that much.

But otherwise you are being reasonable. You just may not have landed a good general contractor. I got lucky and have a great one. He sends people out for quotes and has told subs no before because he thought their price quoted directly to me was too high (arborists).


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## dacoyne (May 27, 2018)

Kicker said:


> I gotta be honest here. The fault lies on both parties, in my opinion.
> 
> You're self proclaimed OCD is probably part of the reason for the poor service or the cause for the inflated price for the 2nd visit. Most likely their view of you as a customer is you're not going to be satisfied no matter what they do and have no reason to continue that relationship unless they're going to make a good margin.
> 
> My father always said, if you want it done right (or to your expectations), you gotta do it yourself. I can't help but say this is exactly the reason why i believe it. You should have bit the bullet and taken care of it yourself


+1 this, it was 750sqft. I'm picky also and know no one will do yard work to my standards.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Ecks from Tex said:


> I would have been extremely weary about the overall price. That is absurdly low although I don't know all circumstances. A pallet of sod dang near costs that much.
> 
> But otherwise you are being reasonable. You just may not have landed a good general contractor. I got lucky and have a great one. He sends people out for quotes and has told subs no before because he thought their price quoted directly to me was too high (arborists).


To be clear - I paid for the pallets of sod. The $200 was simply for the install.


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## thesouthernreelmower (Aug 28, 2018)

I have owned a lawn maintenance/chemical company for the last 16 hrs. I learned early on to get everything clearly in writing. That way there is no misunderstanding on either your or their part. Half down to start the job, and the remaining at time of completion, with a customer signature stately they are happy and paid in full. It protects both parties. I don't think you are being over the top at all. If you would have hired my company everything would have been in writing and you would have paid a lot extra for the extra detail to install. Which seems you were happy to do. They did crappy work and you were to nice and paid them. Now they are gone and you are left with a job you aren't happy with..


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## WDE46 (Mar 11, 2019)

DFW_Bermuda said:


> I told him up front the truth - we are going to have 30 homes this year that will need to be sodded. I am too busy to play vendor games - if he did right by us on my personal home, he was guaranteed that business. That's not being douchy - that's fact.
> 
> I didn't pay him up front.
> 
> ...


I think you're probably massively overestimating your influence on your neighborhood. It's far from guaranteed.

Anyway, I don't think you're wrong to be dissatisfied but for the future you'll have to withhold payment until you know. I mean a day or two would've been fine. I paid for my fence two days after completion for example. I got home the first day, and everything looked good, but I waited until morning to check again, and then that afternoon to call him and let him know I was leaving the check. I consider payment the end of a contract pretty much. Him saying $250 was a "nice" way of saying he didn't want to come back out to your place.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

My wife and I own our own investment company. During our renovation that we recently completed, our biggest problem that we encountered is that we didn't vet our contractors thoroughly enough. Every contractor fills out an application, and we are always looking for contractors to add to our team. We might have a few projects going on in different cities, but at the beginning on the year, we only had one lined up. I took the recommendation of another investor on a guy that he used to have some work done on one of his recent flips.

I hired him because he was ready to work, and had tools and transportation. My wife and I learned that even though his work may be satisfactory to the guy who recommended him to us, it wasn't up to our company standards. Our realtor gave us another recommendation for a plumber because our usual guy wasn't going to be able to meet the timeline of the scope of work. Both of these guys wound up costing us money in rework, however the only saving grace was that we do a minimum of a 20% holdback for any agreed work. I don't pay contractors for anything to show up to the job site. You do the work, you meet the milestone, you get paid; once we're satisfied with the work, and the punch list is complete, you'll get the 20%.

@DFW_Bermuda sadly, you gave away your bargaining power by signing that check at the end of the installers work day.

*The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.**
*

In addition, I believe that there's a huge problem with younger generations not getting into manual labor/trades, and there's a shortage across the country. You can make a great living being a blue-collar worker, by showing up on time, doing what you agree to do, and just being courteous. Sadly, there's a generation of people who don't get that. You could charge a premium price by just hitting those marks. :? :|


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## Dawg1419 (Jun 26, 2019)

Colonel K0rn said:


> My wife and I own our own investment company. During our renovation that we recently completed, our biggest problem that we encountered is that we didn't vet our contractors thoroughly enough. Every contractor fills out an application, and we are always looking for contractors to add to our team. We might have a few projects going on in different cities, but at the beginning on the year, we only had one lined up. I took the recommendation of another investor on a guy that he used to have some work done on one of his recent flips.
> 
> I hired him because he was ready to work, and had tools and transportation. My wife and I learned that even though his work may be satisfactory to the guy who recommended him to us, it wasn't up to our company standards. Our realtor gave us another recommendation for a plumber because our usual guy wasn't going to be able to meet the timeline of the scope of work. Both of these guys wound up costing us money in rework, however the only saving grace was that we do a minimum of a 20% holdback for any agreed work. I don't pay contractors for anything to show up to the job site. You do the work, you meet the milestone, you get paid; once we're satisfied with the work, and the punch list is complete, you'll get the 20%.
> 
> ...


We hit those marks for the last 20 years. We've charged over $1000 for 1 pallet. But we do what we say we will do. Never have any problems.


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## Kicker (Apr 5, 2018)

DFW_Bermuda said:


> Kicker said:
> 
> 
> > I gotta be honest here. The fault lies on both parties, in my opinion.
> ...


The lessons we learned the hard way stick with us the longest. Regardless of what happened, I'll steer clear of them if i ever need some sod and/or major projects based off the lies they fed you.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

WDE46 said:


> DFW_Bermuda said:
> 
> 
> > I told him up front the truth - we are going to have 30 homes this year that will need to be sodded. I am too busy to play vendor games - if he did right by us on my personal home, he was guaranteed that business. That's not being douchy - that's fact.
> ...


@WDE46 You don't seem to understand. I don't over estimate my influence at all. That's the second time you've either called me "douchy" or said I over estimate my influence.

*Let me be clear:

The sod jobs I guaranteed our houses I control. They are houses we fix and flip. Therefore, yes, it is guaranteed. *

As I said in my post, the neighbors are separate. Hopefully that is clear for you now.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

thesouthernreelmower said:


> If you would have hired my company everything would have been in writing and you would have paid a lot extra for the extra detail to install. Which seems you were happy to do.


Agreed. I repeatedly stated I was willing to pay extra to have it done the way I wanted. In no way was I trying to take advantage of him or the pricing.

I even said that in a direct quote to him via text "Jeff - I am not trying to take advantage to you on pricing. I am willing to pay extra to have it done right. I am trying to build a long term working relationship with you and that does not work if you fell I am trying to take advantage of you on our first job together"


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## WDE46 (Mar 11, 2019)

DFW_Bermuda said:


> @WDE46 You don't seem to understand. I don't over estimate my influence at all. That's the second time you've either called me "douchy" or said I over estimate my influence.
> 
> *Let me be clear:
> 
> ...


I didn't say you were douchy. With my understanding at the time, I thought your claims of getting him so much new business would've been douchy to try to use as leverage. If you actually control the decision on those 30 lots then, hell, you should've used that up front with him and it wouldn't be douchy. Most people saying these kids of things don't usually actually have the decision making power. You do, but that wasn't clear.


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## Topcat (Mar 21, 2017)

No, it is not just you. My thoughts. You were more than reasonable and explained your expectations up front during and even after the work was done.

I agree you gave away you bargaining power by paying them, and then offering more money to fix what you already paid them for.

You also get what you pay for. What I mean by that I'd be leery of anyone that would level and lay sod for 200.00. That is a bargain and I am not surprised that your laborer failed to meet your expectations. Laying sod is a lot of work. Leveling and grading takes it to a new level

Lastly, I just did my own sod install. My lawn was very level before I sodded, but could be better. So prior to sodding, I leveled the dirt perfectly (as perfectly as I could). But that didn't matter because sod by nature can be very lumpy. Especially if during the harvest the cutter's blade becomes dull and the thickness of each piece varies. Then when you take into consideration the dirt on the root side of the sod will flake away during handling, and the seams can never be tight enough. All those things is a recipe fora lumpy lawn.

At least that was my experience. My lawn is very lumpy now and will need to be leveled again anyway. In spite of the work I put into leveling to perfection before sod

So unless your lawn was full of mole holes and divots then leveling post sod install should be a given.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Topcat said:


> No, it is not just you. My thoughts. You were more than reasonable and explained your expectations up front during and even after the work was done.
> 
> I agree you gave away you bargaining power by paying them, and then offering more money to fix what you already paid them for.
> 
> ...


I can't wait for my sod to really set strong so I can bring in some sand and do a first pass level. I'm hoping maybe by August.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

What sort of unlevel are we talking about? Do you have pictures? I think the necessity of a perfectly level lawn for mowing reel low is sometimes overstated. I'm on my third builder-graded lawn and I've reel mowed between 0.5 and 1 inch on them all. They didn't/don't look like @Ware's lawn but they still looked great. I'm planning to level either this year or next to get it even more level.

Did you show this guy pictures of your expectations or anything? I bet he had no idea how level you were thinking when discussing this job with him. Really no one except folks on this site have lawns as level as @Ware and @wardconnor. I bet he did a reasonable amount of leveling and presumed it would be good. No landscaper is going to think you want them to get it golf course-level leveled. The process outlined on his website looks like a high quality service, and the pictures look good. Though FYI even if he had spent the time and made your lawn completely flat upon completion, the tilling step in his process will cause some settling over time anyway.

My overall point is: he grossly underestimated how level you really wanted it and should've understood the scope of the job better, but he probably did a reasonable job by a normal person's standards and you can probably still mow between 0.5-1.0 just fine.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

adgattoni said:


> What sort of unlevel are we talking about? Do you have pictures? I think the necessity of a perfectly level lawn for mowing reel low is sometimes overstated. I'm on my third builder-graded lawn and I've reel mowed between 0.5 and 1 inch on them all. They didn't/don't look like @Ware's lawn but they still looked great. I'm planning to level either this year or next to get it even more level.
> 
> Did you show this guy pictures of your expectations or anything? I bet he had no idea how level you were thinking when discussing this job with him. Really no one except folks on this site have lawns as level as @Ware and @wardconnor. I bet he did a reasonable amount of leveling and presumed it would be good. No landscaper is going to think you want them to get it golf course-level leveled. The process outlined on his website looks like a high quality service, and the pictures look good. Though FYI even if he had spent the time and made your lawn completely flat upon completion, the tilling step in his process will cause some settling over time anyway.
> 
> My overall point is: he grossly underestimated how level you really wanted it and should've understood the scope of the job better, but he probably did a reasonable job by a normal person's standards and you can probably still mow between 0.5-1.0 just fine.


Hi - Four times I explained to him I was going to mow at 1/2"

He did NOTHING except show up and roll out the sod.

I explained to him before the job what my expectations were, and during the job that he was not meeting them

He kept saying "no problem" for mowing at 1/2", then when doing the job and I brought that up again all of a sudden he claims that is unreasonable and only golf courses do that.

If he didn't want to, or was unable to level to be ready for 1/2" mow height, he had ample opportunity to set that expectation the four previous times (in writing) I told him I needed it to be perfectly level so I could mow at 1/2" height.


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