# Pre germination of KBG works.



## jacobpd

In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.

I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.

I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.

If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.

Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.


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## uts

I tried the same thing and got germination in 4 days. I will def be doing that as well for my fall seeding!


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## jacobpd

uts said:


> I tried the same thing and got germination in 4 days. I will def be doing that as well for my fall seeding!


Actually, you reminded me that I started putting the seed into the water at midnight. 
Maybe I soaked seed for 6 days.

Anyway, this is way shorter than normal germination time for KBG.

So happy.


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## uts

jacobpd said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried the same thing and got germination in 4 days. I will def be doing that as well for my fall seeding!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you reminded me that I started putting the seed into the water at midnight.
> Maybe I soaked seed for 6 days.
> 
> Anyway, this is way shorter than normal germination time for KBG.
> 
> So happy.
Click to expand...

Totally agree that it's awesome. I actually left most of my seed for the first three days for 24h in the same water (not the best thing). Soaked for 6 days in total I think. I had germination in 3-4 days. In comparison I did some small patch renovation and that seed hasnt come out. Been 6 days at least.


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## Mtsdream

uts said:


> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> I tried the same thing and got germination in 4 days. I will def be doing that as well for my fall seeding!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you reminded me that I started putting the seed into the water at midnight.
> Maybe I soaked seed for 6 days.
> 
> Anyway, this is way shorter than normal germination time for KBG.
> 
> So happy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Totally agree that it's awesome. I actually left most of my seed for the first three days for 24h in the same water (not the best thing). Soaked for 6 days in total I think. I had germination in 3-4 days. In comparison I did some small patch renovation and that seed hasnt come out. Been 6 days at least.
Click to expand...

How did you spread after soaking the seed?


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## jacobpd

Mtsdream said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you reminded me that I started putting the seed into the water at midnight.
> Maybe I soaked seed for 6 days.
> 
> Anyway, this is way shorter than normal germination time for KBG.
> 
> So happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree that it's awesome. I actually left most of my seed for the first three days for 24h in the same water (not the best thing). Soaked for 6 days in total I think. I had germination in 3-4 days. In comparison I did some small patch renovation and that seed hasnt come out. Been 6 days at least.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> How did you spread after soaking the seed?
Click to expand...

I first drain the water as much as possible.
Then mix with dry peat moss.
Peat moss will absorb the remaining moisture.
Spread seed with peat moss by hand.


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## uts

Did it 2 ways after straining it out and leaving it hanging in a strainer for a few hours.

I got a bag of milorganite and mixed some in. It is on milorganite website that you can do that and they give ratio of it as well.

Also mixed it in with peat moss which absorbed the moisture as @jacobpd mentioned. I was using peat moss in any case because its 80-90F weather already with us.


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## NJ-lawn

Wow never thought of this....I'll have to try this fall.


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## Tomnan24

I, too, used this method about 4-5 times this year with KBG. The best results were the same as mentioned, 5 days, with germination in 3 days.

Constant watering was utilized but growth was slow as it usually is with elite KBG. It's the only method I would use in the future.

What I'm still in the dark about is the amount of time the seed will last after it is dried out. The longest I waited was one day. It would be nice if it could be longer. Any ideas?


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## GregKeller

Would there be a limit as to square footage you'd do this with? hand spreading over a 100-200 square foot patch seems like a great idea, seeding an entire yard, maybe not so much? I'm seeding my yard, and waiting for germination has to be the toughest part of all of this. I just keep reminding myself that it will all be worth it in the end


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## badtlc

I guess I don't see the point of this. It took 8 days to get kbg seedlings. Most are seeing in ground seedlings in about 6 days the normal way.


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## Tomnan24

This method gave me 5 days of not watering 3-4 times a day, less worries about washouts and being able to prepare the seedbed while it's soaking.

When I planted seed without soaking it took me about 2 weeks to start sprouting. It was a mix of midnight, award, Nuglade and impact.


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## jsams22

@jacobpd Hey there, following up on this. I am using this method with creeping bentgrass, VERY small seeds. I feel confident using this method, just trying to determine the best method to spread the seed after germination?

I am thinking, drying the seed for a day by hanging in pantyhose, mixing with some peatmoss, then spreading with hand spreader. I am only doing this over a 500sq ft area.

What are your thoughts? Google bentgrass seeds if you want to see how small they are.


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## Mdjamesd

I slit seeded KBG last spring. With diligent watering, I saw germination in 5 days with no pregermination. The tricky part is the sprout-n-pout stage. Gave it about a week of that, then spread some starter fert


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## gm560

badtlc said:


> I guess I don't see the point of this. It took 8 days to get kbg seedlings. Most are seeing in ground seedlings in about 6 days the normal way.


This has not been my experience. Likely depends on variety. I may have had some germination at 8 days, but wide spread was probably 10-14. Regardless, I think there is benefit in this since it is way easier to see possible wash outs coming 3-4 days before vs 8-10, especially in late August. The other benefit would be if trying to spot seed KBG, you are competing with fast growing mature plants. The longer it takes the seed to germinate, the less light they will get once they do. 4 days head start could be the difference between success and failure.

I would be interested to see if there are any differences, either positive or negative in terms of germination rates after soaking vs direct seeding. To me it is plausible the rate would be better since my experience is direct seeding germination rate varied GREATLY based on environmental factors, which would be better controlled and more uniform if soaking. I have some seed, a test might be fun.


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## BobRoss

I think I am going to pre-germinate my KBG this fall. Hopefully, it helps with a higher germination rate. It also seems like a great way to actually overseed with KBG.


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## Belgianbillie

jacobpd said:


> In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.
> 
> I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.
> 
> I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.
> 
> If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.
> 
> Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.


how do you sow with the wet seed?


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## Belgianbillie

badtlc said:


> I guess I don't see the point of this. It took 8 days to get kbg seedlings. Most are seeing in ground seedlings in about 6 days the normal way.


Mine generally take 3 weeks...


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## gm560

Belgianbillie said:


> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.
> 
> I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.
> 
> I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.
> 
> If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.
> 
> Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you sow with the wet seed?
Click to expand...

You mix it with something dry. I have seen milo (they even have directions on the website, https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed), peat moss, etc.


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## Cdub5_

Wow, this is amazing! I've never thought of pre germination. 
I'll be renovating my front yard to SPF 30/Midnight bluegrass in the fall as I did my back yard last fall. The ssslllooowwww germination seemed like an eternity. Since this will be in the front I'd like seedlings as fast as possible.


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## Lawndress

badtlc said:


> I guess I don't see the point of this. It took 8 days to get kbg seedlings. Most are seeing in ground seedlings in about 6 days the normal way.


You must have a much smaller yard than I do. I literally can't keep it all moist.


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## situman

^

If I can save myself days of watering 2 to 3 times a day, it is a godsend. The sooner the grass germinates, it will save even more time thats needed to constantly water. Most annoying process.


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## Kissfromnick

Last few years im using Soil Moist Seed Coat. Seeded on 05/19 tttf took 3 days and kbg show up in 5 days. 2nd picture from today 11 days!! After seeding.


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## gm560

I tried pre germination recently and am floored by how well it worked. Cross linking to what I did:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=380742#p380742

Thanks, @jacobpd and @Kissfromnick for bringing it to my attention at the right time.


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## dicko1

You can improve the process by pre-soaking two batches of seed. A small "test" batch and the larger "main" batch. Start soaking the test batch several days before the main batch.

Lets say you started the test batch two days before the main batch. Soak until you see germination in the test batch, you now know you have two days before the main batch will germinate and you can better time when it should be planted in the ground.

Throw away the germinated test batch, or if you wish, you can try planting the already germinated seed.


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## gm560

****o1 said:


> You can improve the process by pre-soaking two batches of seed. A small "test" batch and the larger "main" batch. Start soaking the test batch several days before the main batch.
> 
> Lets say you started the test batch two days before the main batch. Soak until you see germination in the test batch, you now know you have two days before the main batch will germinate and you can better time when it should be planted in the ground.
> 
> Throw away the germinated test batch, or if you wish, you can try planting the already germinated seed.


I think it was @Kissfromnick (correct me if i am wrong) that did a test to see the best number of days to soak, and I think he landed at 5 or 6, after that it was wasted effort or actually a bit detrimental. I was more concerned with getting it down into the right weather conditions.

I did a bunch of research and there were some other studies done on the topic. Many used a bubbler to add oxygen to the water, while others used gibberellic acid in the soak as a growth stimulation. I actually wanted to do a test where I soaked 1 of the bags for the last day in a kelp mixture (contains gibberellins), but I couldn't find my water soluble kelp anywhere and eventually gave up looking. I may have used it all last season.


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## Kissfromnick

gm560 said:


> ****o1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can improve the process by pre-soaking two batches of seed. A small "test" batch and the larger "main" batch. Start soaking the test batch several days before the main batch.
> 
> Lets say you started the test batch two days before the main batch. Soak until you see germination in the test batch, you now know you have two days before the main batch will germinate and you can better time when it should be planted in the ground.
> 
> Throw away the germinated test batch, or if you wish, you can try planting the already germinated seed.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it was @Kissfromnick (correct me if i am wrong) that did a test to see the best number of days to soak, and I think he landed at 5 or 6, after that it was wasted effort or actually a bit detrimental. I was more concerned with getting it down into the right weather conditions.
> 
> I did a bunch of research and there were some other studies done on the topic. Many used a bubbler to add oxygen to the water, while others used gibberellic acid in the soak as a growth stimulation. I actually wanted to do a test where I soaked 1 of the bags for the last day in a kelp mixture (contains gibberellins), but I couldn't find my water soluble kelp anywhere and eventually gave up looking. I may have used it all last season.
Click to expand...

Try to seed with app of Hydretain at seeding time will have almost same result as with seeds soaking (that's my secret weapon now) just way easier and less patches growing.


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## u29236

Found a good article on pre germination https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/wetrt/article/1992may78.pdf


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## CDR

For the pre-soak, what happens if it's a mix with perennial rye + ***…..

Per that article above, if the Rye governs at 3 days, I guess it's better then nothing if *** just takes the 3 days vs going the suggested 5 days?


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## gm560

CDR said:


> For the pre-soak, what happens if it's a mix with perennial rye + KBG…..
> 
> Per that article above, if the Rye governs at 3 days, I guess it's better then nothing if KBG just takes the 3 days vs going the suggested 5 days?


If you can i would soak them separately, if not split the difference at 4 and hope for the best.


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## Kstawski

I totally am planning to try this in the fall mixed with PGR. Silly question, has anyone tried putting the wet seed in a bag and throwing it in the dryer on air only or low heat to dry it and help with spreading?


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## Duxwig

Would it be prudent to dry out the seedlings though just as they're about to germinate? I mean you'd hydrate them after laying, but wouldn't it still introduce some shock?


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## MassHole

What's the exact process? How do you store the seed and keep it wet? In the original bag?


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## gm560

MassHole said:


> What's the exact process? How do you store the seed and keep it wet? In the original bag?


Ill detail what I did with some photos I posted to my journal:

Measured out 5 lbs of dry KBG seed (was seeding 2.5k @ 2lbs/k)
Found 2 old pillow cases and put 2.5 lbs in each.
Found a clean Homer Bucket. Put both pillow cases in the homer bucket and filled it with water to cover. I used a full 1 gallon water bottle to weigh them down and keep them submerged. 
I kept this bucket in my basement.
Every morning at 9am and every evening at 9pm I would bring the bucket to the driveway and dump out the water and then fill it back up.

I did this for like 5.5 days.

On the day I chose to put the seed down, I took the bags out of the bucket and left them in the shade on my patio so they could drain a bit. I did this roughly 4-5 hours before putting the seed down.

At seeding time I took a big plastic storage tote and put in like 25 is lbs of dry "mixables". I used ~15 lbs of Greensgrade Milorganite and ~10 lbs Carbon Pro G followed by one of the pillow cases of seed.



I mixed it up with a garden trowel and spread it like it was fertilizer.



Did the other bag soon after and spread in the other direction.


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## gm560

Kstawski said:


> I totally am planning to try this in the fall mixed with PGR. Silly question, has anyone tried putting the wet seed in a bag and throwing it in the dryer on air only or low heat to dry it and help with spreading?


I don't think this would be prudent or necessary. First that bag of seed is going to be heavy AF and considering I have had dryers break from a heavy comforter even after a solid spin cycle.... I don't think I would recommend it.

It was also very easy to spread once you mix the seed with something dry and spreadable. It was indistinguishable from spreading anything else.


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## Kstawski

gm560 said:


> Kstawski said:
> 
> 
> 
> I totally am planning to try this in the fall mixed with PGR. Silly question, has anyone tried putting the wet seed in a bag and throwing it in the dryer on air only or low heat to dry it and help with spreading?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think this would be prudent or necessary. First that bag of seed is going to be heavy AF and considering I have had dryers break from a heavy comforter even after a solid spin cycle.... I don't think I would recommend it.
> 
> It was also very easy to spread once you mix the seed with something dry and spreadable. It was indistinguishable from spreading anything else.
Click to expand...

Good point on the weight, I didn't consider that. I'll just mix it with Milo and some peat moss. Glad it worked for you, it gives me more confidence for this fall!


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## SJ Lawn

An old article with Dr. Doug Brede:

https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/wetrt/article/1992may78.pdf


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## MassHole

gm560 said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the exact process? How do you store the seed and keep it wet? In the original bag?
> 
> 
> 
> Ill detail what I did with some photos I posted to my journal:
> 
> Measured out 5 lbs of dry KBG seed (was seeding 2.5k @ 2lbs/k)
> Found 2 old pillow cases and put 2.5 lbs in each.
> Found a clean Homer Bucket. Put both pillow cases in the homer bucket and filled it with water to cover. I used a full 1 gallon water bottle to weigh them down and keep them submerged.
> I kept this bucket in my basement.
> Every morning at 9am and every evening at 9pm I would bring the bucket to the driveway and dump out the water and then fill it back up.
> 
> I did this for like 5.5 days.
> 
> On the day I chose to put the seed down, I took the bags out of the bucket and left them in the shade on my patio so they could drain a bit. I did this roughly 4-5 hours before putting the seed down.
> 
> At seeding time I took a big plastic storage tote and put in like 25 is lbs of dry "mixables". I used ~15 lbs of Greensgrade Milorganite and ~10 lbs Carbon Pro G followed by one of the pillow cases of seed.
> 
> I mixed it up with a garden trowel and spread it like it was fertilizer.
> 
> Did the other bag soon after and spread in the other direction.
Click to expand...

This is a great step by step. Thank you sir.

What's the point of changing out the water? Fungus?

My big issue will be finding a good carrier for the seed without using Milo.

How much time did it save you on germination? When did you see seedlings?

Thank you again.


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## gm560

MassHole said:


> What's the point of changing out the water? Fungus?
> 
> My big issue will be finding a good carrier for the seed without using Milo.
> 
> How much time did it save you on germination? When did you see seedlings?
> 
> Thank you again.


There may be more than one reason for changing the water. I am assuming some kind of bacteria/fungal/pathogen growth is definitely possible, but the primary reason I heard (forget the source) was that the seed, as it prepares to germinate, secretes a toxin. In nature it is intended to reduce competition to around the seed so it can get more resources. Presumably the seed sitting in a bath of its own toxin would be counter productive, so changing the water periodically gets rid of the toxin contaminated water. I definitely believe this because the water takes on a brown color, almost like tea and have a distinctive smell to it.

In terms of carrier, why no Milo? Avoiding the N?

I think something like The Carbon Pro G that I used would work fine. Or one of the Andersons Products like Humic DG or Black Gypsum DG. I'm sure there are others that would work okay too, but would just make sure they wouldnt hurt the seed. I have heard peat moss would work, but then you would not be able to use a broadcast spreader.

In terms of time saved.... not sure exactly because I did not have a control to test against. But I saw germination on 100% KBG (After Midnight) in 4-5 days. Widespread at 6 days. Anecdotally, I can compare it vs a blend of KBG (~50% Midnight) I did 3 years ago in August without soaking. There I had germination in 7-8 days and widespread around 10-12, if memory serves correctly. I would also say that with soaking, the seed germinated MUCH more uniformly. However I dont know if this is the soaking or a function of better weather, as I was able to avoid any washout rains in the week or so after seed down. Here was the lawn 6 days after seeding:



and 19 days after seeding:



vs 17 days after seeding without soaking a while back. Same lawn, different angle. I know its not quite fair since this one is -2 days but you can see what I mean in terms of uniformity.


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## SJ Lawn

Why change the water ?

Per Dr. Doug Brede (he knows a lot about turf!!):

• Grass seed has a high oxygen requirement. Water does not contain enough free oxygen to meet the needs
of germinating grass seed. The seed realizes this and will go dormant in standing water. That's why we aerate
the water, preferably with an oxygen supplement.

• Grass seed excretes toxins that inhibit germination. When seed imbibes (takes in) water, it excretes chemical toxins. In large quantities, these chemicals are harmful to the seed and can inhibit seed germination.


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## situman

I just did a test section pre germ kbg for 5 days. Saw germination today which is 3 days after seed down. And this is in 90 degree weather since Monday? Which means I can start soaking the seeds at 3 weeks of following and have germination around 3 days after seed down. Saves me almost 2 weeks of watering 3 times a day.


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## MassHole

Thank you both @gm560 and @SJ Lawn. I learned a ton from you both. I will definitely be trying this in August as part of my Midnight monostand expansion.

The reason I don't use Milo anymore is bc of the PFAS concerns (and the price is horrid).

@gm560 those results are well worth the time! That's a lot of germination improvement. Thank you for the time in explaining this and posting pics!


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## Amorae

Anyone tried overseeding large areas with wet seed? Has anyone tried adding the peat or milo and seed mixture to a slit seeder?


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## gm560

Amorae said:


> Anyone tried overseeding large areas with wet seed? Has anyone tried adding the peat or milo and seed mixture to a slit seeder?


No, but my thoughts are it would be difficult if not impossible to overseed with the wet seed. It clumps up a lot.

I would think the slit seeder would work fine with milo/seed mix, my only concern would be if the hopper on the slit seeder would be big enough. As it is, I filled my 50 lb Lesco broadcast spreader up twice.... and that was with a super low seed rate of #2/k and a small area of 2,500 sqft. If you were putting out more seed, and thus more carrier, it could take a lot of fill ups.

As for peat moss... not sure. Does peat moss flow through a drop spreader? The only slit seeder I have used was the Classen that HD rents and it was basically a power rake with a drop spreader behind the tines. I am pretty sure that peat moss would not flow properly.


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## Avid123

Sorry noob question - is there anything particular about the texture or particle size of milorganite that makes it helpful to mix with the wet seed ? We don't have access to milorganite here in Canada, but could I mix it with other types of organic fertilizer or hen manure ?


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## gm560

Avid123 said:


> Sorry noob question - is there anything particular about the texture or particle size of milorganite that makes it helpful to mix with the wet seed ? We don't have access to milorganite here in Canada, but could I mix it with other types of organic fertilizer or hen manure ?


I don't think so. I would think it would work fine with poultry manure, as long as it is pelleted and can be spread. The things I think I would avoid would be anything water soluble. I would also guess that some things could potentially harm the seed, but I really don't know and would assume most organic fertilizers would be just fine.


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## Robpin

Thanks for posting this topic, I might try this for a 3k section I killed off.

Do you recommend lightly rolling the pre-germinated seed after spreading or is this not necessary?


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## gm560

Robpin said:


> Thanks for posting this topic, I might try this for a 3k section I killed off.
> 
> Do you recommend lightly rolling the pre-germinated seed after spreading or is this not necessary?


I did not. I did consider rolling it with my Greensmaster 1600, but was running out of daylight and was also concerned the wet-ish seed might stick to the drum. I had no issues without it.


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## Jeff_MI84

How long would you let the seed dry, so they don't stick in the spreader? More or less than say, six hours?


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## gm560

I wouldnt say it was "dry" when I mixed it with the Milo. I drained it still in the bag by removing it from the water bucket and the letting it sit in the shade on a wicker chair so the water could drain out. 5-6 hours is probably a good estimate. I brought them up at lunch time and started the seeding process at like 6 pm. I just want it to be clear that it was still plenty wet and would not have spread well if I didnt mix with something dry..


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## BrainBailey

Amorae said:


> Anyone tried overseeding large areas with wet seed? Has anyone tried adding the peat or milo and seed mixture to a slit seeder?


Yes - I used this technique then mixed the wet seed with Carbon Pro G from SiteOne instead of Milo. I had this on hand, so I used it. Overseeded my KBG stand in June. Worked well and got good germination. I was also paying attention to weather and did this right before a good amount of rain and summer cold spell, so I got a bit lucky.

When I was spreading, it was noticeabley damp, so go heavy on the dry mix if you do this. I had to kick the spreader every other step, but it worked. I used a broadcast spreader. I haven't used a slit seeder personally, but don't think it would work well in that.


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## Amorae

@BrainBailey thanks for the info!


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## Duxwig

What ratio would one use for mixing with peat moss to use on a broadcast spreader?
2lb seed/1k to * moss/1k?

Newbie newbie going all in to try (and document potential failure). Have 13 cu ft of compressed moss bails and trying to figure out what it'll expand to/mixing.


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## kevreh

gm560 said:


> Belgianbillie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.
> 
> I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.
> 
> I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.
> 
> If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.
> 
> Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you sow with the wet seed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mix it with something dry. I have seen milo (they even have directions on the website, https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed), peat moss, etc.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the milorganite trick, that's helpful when seeding an area where you want to use a spreader.


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## Robpin

I just tried this on Wednesday using 9lbs KBG seed mixed with 40lbs generic milo from HD. Spreading this mix was very easy and I was just using a cheap Scotts spreader.


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## kevreh

Whats the name of the generic milo, does it have iron?


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## gm560

kevreh said:


> Whats the name of the generic milo, does it have iron?


Its called Ecoscrapes and yes it has 2% iron.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoScraps-2-5M-Slow-Release-Fertilizer-22311-1/311371457?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_2_FERTILIZERS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-SMART_SHP&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_2_FERTILIZERS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-SMART_SHP-71700000064087486-58700005695909825-92700051963344737&gclid=CjwKCAjwsNiIBhBdEiwAJK4khraM_fP61J-DUznxrurxksiZ8mjtuW0FYl2bcyBysDqEvbJzpGY3ZBoCSRoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


----------



## TheCutShop

badtlc said:


> I guess I don't see the point of this. It took 8 days to get kbg seedlings. Most are seeing in ground seedlings in about 6 days the normal way.


You also get to keep mowing without worry of running seedlings over.


----------



## kevreh

gm560 said:


> kevreh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whats the name of the generic milo, does it have iron?
> 
> 
> 
> Its called Ecoscrapes and yes it has 2% iron.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/EcoScraps-2-5M-Slow-Release-Fertilizer-22311-1/311371457?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&mtc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_2_FERTILIZERS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-SMART_SHP&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D28O-G-D28O-28_2_FERTILIZERS-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-SMART_SHP-71700000064087486-58700005695909825-92700051963344737&gclid=CjwKCAjwsNiIBhBdEiwAJK4khraM_fP61J-DUznxrurxksiZ8mjtuW0FYl2bcyBysDqEvbJzpGY3ZBoCSRoQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll give it a try for my Labor day application.


----------



## Robpin

So far my experience is going well, I saw the first seedlings on day 3 and by day 6 they were everywhere (100% Midnight KBG). If this works I will likely do this again since it gave me a few more days to prep the soil and avoid bad weather.

@kevreh I only used Ecoscraps fert because milo was not available and it was less expensive too. I would have preferred to use peat moss but I didn't feel I could spread it evenly with all the sticks and clumps.


----------



## Kstawski

Robpin said:


> So far my experience is going well, I saw the first seedlings on day 3 and by day 6 they were everywhere (100% Midnight KBG). If this works I will likely do this again since it gave me a few more days to prep the soil and avoid bad weather.
> 
> @kevreh I only used Ecoscraps fert because milo was not available and it was less expensive too. I would have preferred to use peat moss but I didn't feel I could spread it evenly with all the sticks and clumps.


How many days did you soak the seed?


----------



## Justin9314

This is great information. I'm sorry for the basic question.. I am kinda brain dead since our newborn was born. Can someone help me figure out the math on how much Milo? I plan to spread 2.5 lbs per 1k of KBG. So how much Milo per 1k? Thanks for all the great insight on this!


----------



## KHARPS

Does anyone foresee an issue with spraying glyphosate after seed down if the seed has already been primed for 5 days first?


----------



## davegravy

That seems risky


----------



## KHARPS

Guess I'll be the guinea pig. I had a small window to get it done and didn't even think of it until afterward. I sprayed glyphosate minutes after primed seed/milo went down. Currently on day 4 after seed down with no signs of germination yet. Good thing I have plenty of seed on hand. I'll report back.


----------



## davegravy

KHARPS said:


> Guess I'll be the guinea pig. I had a small window to get it done and didn't even think of it until afterward. I sprayed glyphosate minutes after primed seed/milo went down. Currently on day 4 after seed down with no signs of germination yet. Good thing I have plenty of seed on hand. I'll report back.


If you did it immediately after seed you might be ok. IIRC glyphosate depends on photosynthesis to work, and even seeds that have just germinated have blades that are still subterranean (ie not yet exposed to light).

EDIT: I don't think I'm remebering the underlined correctly actually... Can't find any references that say glyphosate works directly on the photosynthesis process specifically.


----------



## KHARPS

We shall see. If I don't see any germination by the weekend (7 days after seed down) I will reseed and chalk it up as a lesson learned.


----------



## Robpin

Kstawski said:


> Robpin said:
> 
> 
> 
> So far my experience is going well, I saw the first seedlings on day 3 and by day 6 they were everywhere (100% Midnight KBG). If this works I will likely do this again since it gave me a few more days to prep the soil and avoid bad weather.
> 
> @kevreh I only used Ecoscraps fert because milo was not available and it was less expensive too. I would have preferred to use peat moss but I didn't feel I could spread it evenly with all the sticks and clumps.
> 
> 
> 
> How many days did you soak the seed?
Click to expand...

I was aiming for 5 days but ended up soaking the seed for a total of 6.5 days, replaced water 1x per day and let it drain on an old milk crate for about 9-12hrs before mixing with the fert.


----------



## Duxwig

Have 10lb midnight KBG from United Seed. Did a test batch of 1/3c seed with a 2 gallons of water, started evening of Fri 8/13, changing water every 12 hrs. 8/17, dried seeds for an hour on a dampened paper towel, setup a low cardboard box with soil and threw them on. Threw it outside and watering twice a day (soil very very moist).

Today 8/23, 10 days later and no sprout yet.

Doing an overseed this Sunday and starting to soak the 10lbs tomorrow morning. 
Should I second guess the pre-germination…..?


----------



## Robpin

If I were in your situation I would not take the risk, the old method works just fine too.

When I experimented last month I had sprouts at 3-4 days and had enough extra seed on hand in case presoaking failed.


----------



## SteelCutLawn

I just put my seed down for my front yard reno yesterday after 4&1/2 days of pre-germinating following the Milorganite and Lawngineer process. Really excited after reading all these comments.


----------



## Avid123

Is there a particular weight or quantity ratio of Milo to the grass seed ? Or anything in particular that would help u decide how much you need ?

If I'm doing this over a smaller area (partial reno of abt 300sq ft) - can it be done using a handheld broadcast spreader ?


----------



## Duxwig

I spoke too soon. 
Day 11 - sprouts on the left! Starting the soak when I get home.


----------



## situman

If it takes 11 days even with pre germ, u might as well just throw it on dry. The whole point of pre germ was to cut down on germ time and watering needs.


----------



## Duxwig

I guess I'm still in the positive camp.

I didn't have much doubt on long germination for KBG specifically, I don't see this changing the science of germination much and saw it as a control variable more so to aid in success 
My worry was more so the seeds being duds or something else messing up.

Process definitely works as I'm home now and there is tons of fuzz popping. Going to soak the remaining 10lbs tonight to get it going. Will post pictures next week as it goes down over 4k area.


----------



## situman

It definitely works. I've tried it and it came up in 3 days after throwing it on the lawn. Strange your seeds took 11 days.


----------



## CorpRaider

Avid123 said:


> Is there a particular weight or quantity ratio of Milo to the grass seed ? Or anything in particular that would help u decide how much you need ?
> 
> If I'm doing this over a smaller area (partial reno of abt 300sq ft) - can it be done using a handheld broadcast spreader ?


I believe it's a 4:1 milo:seed ratio (e.g., 20:5). Ima probably just round up and use a bag per 5 lbs of seed (assuming my seed isn't junk). They have it posted on their site somewhere.


----------



## Duxwig

Soak game started.


----------



## Kstawski

Justin9314 said:


> This is great information. I'm sorry for the basic question.. I am kinda brain dead since our newborn was born. Can someone help me figure out the math on how much Milo? I plan to spread 2.5 lbs per 1k of KBG. So how much Milo per 1k? Thanks for all the great insight on this!


Congratulations! You'll use 10lbs of Milo for every 2.5 lbs of seed.


----------



## Kstawski

So I'm seeding Sunday, and life got in the way and I wasn't able to start soaking the seed Monday (which would be the desired 5 days). I'm going to start to soak them tonight - 3 full days is better than nothing, right?


----------



## Avid123

@gm560 @Tomnan24 @jacobpd and others for whom pre-germ worked - did you guys use a roller after spreading the seed ? I'm afraid the wet seed might stick to it (or does mixing with the dry milo take care of this) - any other way to ensure seed to soil contact ?


----------



## gm560

Avid123 said:


> @gm560 @Tomnan24 @jacobpd and others for whom pre-germ worked - did you guys use a roller after spreading the seed ? I'm afraid the wet seed might stick to it (or does mixing with the dry milo take care of this) - any other way to ensure seed to soil contact ?


I did not. You could probably get away with rolling. If you are worried about it sticking, waiting 30 min or so after spreading would probably be enough for it to dry out a bit to the point it wouldnt stick much.


----------



## Kstawski

Avid123 said:


> @gm560 @Tomnan24 @jacobpd and others for whom pre-germ worked - did you guys use a roller after spreading the seed ? I'm afraid the wet seed might stick to it (or does mixing with the dry milo take care of this) - any other way to ensure seed to soil contact ?


I rolled it this morning after I threw down the seed/Milo mix and had 0 issue with the KBG sticking.


----------



## Cdub5_

Did any of you have "early bloomers" when you pre-germinated kbg?

Right now I'm about 2.5 days into the pre-germination process and I'm noticing some green inside my cheese cloth :shock:

I'm not quite ready to put seed down, ran into mechanical failures. To say the least I was very surprised to see some green little shoots sprouting so early. Is this common?


----------



## crkone

I pre-germed for 5 days with a mix of KBG cultivars, 2 water changes a day. I let it drain for about 5 minutes day of seeding, added milorganite 4:1 in a wheelbarrow, and mixed it up while letting it dry a bit over a 45 minute period. We did see a small amount of germination but not much when we emptied the pillowcases. Days 5-6 after seeding is when we saw the majority of germination.


----------



## Avid123

I'm on day 3 and hoping for seed down after I've completed 5 - haven't seen anything in the pillowcase so far.

I'm doing a relatively small spot - about 200sq ft and wondering if I just spread it with a rake or a hand broadcast spreader? I'm just afraid manually might not result in even spread but also thinking a hand spreader might drop seed too far...


----------



## Bdaigle

Would it be ok to use pelletized lime to spread pre germinated Kentucky bluegrass. Milo is not available.


----------



## BrainBailey

Bdaigle said:


> Would it be ok to use pelletized lime to spread pre germinated Kentucky bluegrass. Milo is not available.


Likely not. The idea behind Milo, carbon, etc. is to have them act as a bulk drying agent and absorb some of the water from the pre germ so the seed can actually flow through a spreader, thus you need a very absorbant mixer. I don't think lime will absorb much?


----------



## Jersey_diy

question for those that have done this already, did anyone apply Tenacity day of seeding? Wondering if the pre-germination would have any issues using a pre-emergent.

I am going to give this a try, but wasn't sure about using a pre-emergent


----------



## gm560

Jersey_diy said:


> question for those that have done this already, did anyone apply Tenacity day of seeding? Wondering if the pre-germination would have any issues using a pre-emergent.
> 
> I am going to give this a try, but wasn't sure about using a pre-emergent


I used granular meso (Scotts Starter) with no noticeable ill effects.


----------



## Jersey_diy

gm560 said:


> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> 
> question for those that have done this already, did anyone apply Tenacity day of seeding? Wondering if the pre-germination would have any issues using a pre-emergent.
> 
> I am going to give this a try, but wasn't sure about using a pre-emergent
> 
> 
> 
> I used granular meso (Scotts Starter) with no noticeable ill effects.
Click to expand...

You did that at time of seeding or waited?


----------



## gm560

Jersey_diy said:


> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> 
> question for those that have done this already, did anyone apply Tenacity day of seeding? Wondering if the pre-germination would have any issues using a pre-emergent.
> 
> I am going to give this a try, but wasn't sure about using a pre-emergent
> 
> 
> 
> I used granular meso (Scotts Starter) with no noticeable ill effects.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You did that at time of seeding or waited?
Click to expand...

Same day as seed down.


----------



## crkone

gm560 said:


> Jersey_diy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gm560 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used granular meso (Scotts Starter) with no noticeable ill effects.
> 
> 
> 
> You did that at time of seeding or waited?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Same day as seed down.
Click to expand...

I did the same and had no issues.


----------



## jha4aamu

Jersey_diy said:


> question for those that have done this already, did anyone apply Tenacity day of seeding? Wondering if the pre-germination would have any issues using a pre-emergent.
> 
> I am going to give this a try, but wasn't sure about using a pre-emergent


I pre-germ my KBG for 7 days and sprayed tenacity the same day I seeded. No issues either


----------



## Avid123

I'm at day 6 of pre-germ and hoping to put down seed tomorrow. I noticed in the steps listed by @gm560 that the seed was left to dry for a bit on the day of the seeding . Is this an essential step/does it make the process easier/better? Did any of you who did this just drain the water and directly pour the wet seed into the Milo?

The reason I ask is that early tomorrow morning is the window I have to seed and not sure if I'd have the time to allow it to dry (although I could drain the water tonight and let it sit indoors in the wet pillowcases?)

Thanks


----------



## gm560

Avid123 said:


> I'm at day 6 of pre-germ and hoping to put down seed tomorrow. I noticed in the steps listed by @gm560 that the seed was left to dry for a bit on the day of the seeding . Is this an essential step/does it make the process easier/better? Did any of you who did this just drain the water and directly pour the wet seed into the Milo?
> 
> The reason I ask is that early tomorrow morning is the window I have to seed and not sure if I'd have the time to allow it to dry (although I could drain the water tonight and let it sit indoors in the wet pillowcases?)
> 
> Thanks


My goal was to not put it in the milo sopping wet. I did it for a few hours... you could likely get 90% of the effect by draining it for 15 min. I am sure overnight would be just fine, too if you are seeding first thing in the morning. If I were you I would probably just wake up, let it drain while drinking the morning coffee and then get after it.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So I was lazy and missed my seeding window.

So now gona do this... but i have a question...

What about water temperature ? Did you guys try to get to room temp ? Or use hot water ?

I think ill use 2 buckets and let one come to temp and soak in the other. 
Im patching a section so it wont be like a 50 lb bag ya know.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Also, anyone think slopemaster would be a good spreading agent ?

I have some and peat moss may be hard to get.

Also trying to avoid milo to avoid exposure and dust from it.


----------



## gm560

Thick n Dense said:


> So I was lazy and missed my seeding window.
> 
> So now gona do this... but i have a question...
> 
> What about water temperature ? Did you guys try to get to room temp ? Or use hot water ?
> 
> I think ill use 2 buckets and let one come to temp and soak in the other.
> Im patching a section so it wont be like a 50 lb bag ya know.


Room temp. I would avoid hot water.


----------



## gm560

Thick n Dense said:


> Also, anyone think slopemaster would be a good spreading agent ?
> 
> I have some and peat moss may be hard to get.
> 
> Also trying to avoid milo to avoid exposure and dust from it.


I think slope master may be too coarse to mix well with the seed. How large of an area are you seeding?

An alternative to peat moss would be potting mix. Most of them are mainly peat, anyway. I would just check out the ingredients. Only risk I would see would be if it was some organic one using compost that could introduce weed seeds, so I would stick with mixes that are sterile. Usually this would cost a fortune for a large area, but this time of year you can probably find potting mix on clearance.

Another option other than milo would be another organic fertilizer. I am thinking something like Holly Tone would work great. I know it is not a lawn fertilizer, but it is basically a granular mix of feather meal, poultry manure, bone meal, blood meal, etc, so no reason it would not be fine on the lawn, and the new seed. Cost for a large bag likely comparable to milo and it is at most big box (in my area at least). Never done this, but I don't see a reason it wouldnt work just fine to get the wet seed spread evenly.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@gm560 
Thanks man.

I like the potting soil idea... and agree it would work. Also dont need the moisture retention with cooldown. 
Quick cheap and the bag isnt as annoying to carry as peat moss lol

I'd say about 600 sqft. I had some grubs attack. Shame on me. Shame.

Ill be hand spreading so just need something to dry it up a bit and to help chuck.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Heres a visual for some fence sitters: 
I like the brick to keep the whole thing submerged.


----------



## CDR

Pre-germinating has been amazing and the sore I seeded looked incredible and feel like a carpet honestly within a week.

Originally did a ***-PRG mix for 5 days and it sprouted nicely within a 3-5 days and this time soaked for 7-8 days and some spouts honestly popped up in a 1-2 days lol.

Assuming for Elite *** mixes, the same can be done though I never see any of the Reno's talk about soaking their new seed…any reason?


----------



## gm560

CDR said:


> Assuming for Elite KBG mixes, the same can be done though I never see any of the Reno's talk about soaking their new seed…any reason?


I did a 2,500 sqft reno using this technique this spring and it worked great. The downside I see for doing a whole reno, especially with something like Tall Fescue or Ryegrass is soaking a 25-50+ lbs of seed would be more of a chore. Also mixing it with a carrier and spreading it afterward would be a lot more work as well.

But I agree with you, I'll be soaking bluegrass from now on prior to seeding, regardless of if its spot seeding or a renovation. It really makes the process much more controlled.


----------



## Thick n Dense

CDR said:


> Pre-germinating has been amazing and the sore I seeded looked incredible and feel like a carpet honestly within a week.
> 
> Originally did a ***-PRG mix for 5 days and it sprouted nicely within a 3-5 days and this time soaked for 7-8 days and some spouts honestly popped up in a 1-2 days lol.
> 
> Assuming for Elite KBG mixes, the same can be done though I never see any of the Reno's talk about soaking their new seed…any reason?


Wow i might push it cause its kind of late in the season.

Go big or go home eh


----------



## Maritimer 99

Another way to be able to spread pre germinated seed is allowing it to drain as much as possible and then mixing it with play sand. That's one way to spread it without feeding existing turf if you're over seeding.


----------



## CDR

I wondered about using play sand…will try next time.

This time I just hand mixed with peat moss and tossed it around…definitely a pain for a big area.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Tomorrow will be 7 days.
I noticed it's not as smelly, I hope this is a good thing.

I agree. Small amounts are easy but a 25# 50# bag is much bigger deal.

This could be a game change in triv to be honest. If you could time it so it's rooting once it hits the ground it removes that angst the wives moan about.

It also sucks to water the entire zone for just one patch. This should cut back on that amount.


----------



## Lawn Whisperer

I let the bag drain in the burlap bag for half a day. I used Milo and carbon pro G to mix and spread the seeds. It worked great and spread uniformly, plus I was able to set the spreader as if I was spreading fertilizer.


----------



## Cdub5_

Agree with what everyone has said about their own experiences with pre-germinating KBG.

Last year it took me 20 days to see a good amount of seedlings. This year with the pre-germination process I saw decent growth after 5 days on the ground.

Pre-germinating KBG is probably the best single idea I've ever come across on this site. :thumbup:


----------



## schmendog

So I'm on day 8 of soaking, not by choice, my contractor whose doing grade work is delayed again. Hoping to seed tomorrow.

The seed doesn't look to be sprouting or really any different. Is it still ok to use this seed that will have been soaking for 9 days total?


----------



## weignerg

schmendog said:


> So I'm on day 8 of soaking, not by choice, my contractor whose doing grade work is delayed again. Hoping to seed tomorrow.
> 
> The seed doesn't look to be sprouting or really any different. Is it still ok to use this seed that will have been soaking for 9 days total?


I would still use it.

Is it growing now?

I put 6 pounds of Mazama in a bucket for the front yard to overseed and fill in spots that had runoff from a renovation earlier this year.

It was in there for 5 days and has now been planted for 2 and a half days.

Nothing yet.


----------



## Majahops

For me, I thought laying burlap over my seed worked so well that I think I will do that next time still, instead of pregerminating. Laying burlap over my KBG seed stood up just fine thru hurricane Ida and that was on a slope. Burlap man, so simple, but so magic.


----------



## schmendog

:bandit:


weignerg said:


> schmendog said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm on day 8 of soaking, not by choice, my contractor whose doing grade work is delayed again. Hoping to seed tomorrow.
> 
> The seed doesn't look to be sprouting or really any different. Is it still ok to use this seed that will have been soaking for 9 days total?
> 
> 
> 
> I would still use it.
> 
> Is it growing now?
> 
> I put 6 pounds of Mazama in a bucket for the front yard to overseed and fill in spots that had runoff from a renovation earlier this year.
> 
> It was in there for 5 days and has now been planted for 2 and a half days.
> 
> Nothing yet.
Click to expand...

I ended up tossing that first batch of seed because contractor delayed again. Second batch of pre germinated mazama was in water 6 days, just yesterday it started to germinate. Total of 6 days in water, then 7 days in ground before germinating. Air temps have been 70s daytime and 50s night time.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I soaked for 7 days and got germ. after a week. Keep in mind this is Provista which is slow and has really dropped temps here in the mitten right when I put seed down, we've only had 1-2 warmish days.

to put the weather in perspective, I only watered like twice after seed was down.


----------



## Jacks_Designs

Thanks for all the great info! I did 1k Reno this year and the rest will be next fall. Definitely going to pre germinate next year!


----------



## SteelCutLawn

These pics were 24 days post seeding after pre germ for 5 days changing water ever 12 hours. On day of seeding I removed seed from water in the morning, mixed with milorganite in a tote and spread gingerly with a drop spreader and covered with a dusting of peat moss. Total seed rate was 3#/M


----------



## probara

Has anyone experimented with adding something to the water to help with germination, like a pinch of Miracle Gro?


----------



## Thick n Dense

probara said:


> Has anyone experimented with adding something to the water to help with germination, like a pinch of Miracle Gro?


No but interesting. 
I'd try to shoot for a balanced product so we know NPK levels are all the same.

Also, we could probably even get fancy with Grow Lights and heat pads lol... 
I would just be worried at which the point that they sprout, would need some testing... I would think the lights increase Germ. 
Energy Frequency Vibration


----------



## gm560

probara said:


> Has anyone experimented with adding something to the water to help with germination, like a pinch of Miracle Gro?


The research and industry articles I read many times used gibberellins in the soak mixture. I planned to do a test with one bag in water and one in water with some soluble kelp (oft encouraged when seed starting flowers and plants because it contains gibberellins), but I couldn't find my bag of kelp so punted the idea (I found it last weekend when cleaning the garage!). It worked fine without it but would have been fun to see if there was a difference.


----------



## jpzsports

I'm planning on spot seeding some areas after digging out patches of triv.

I saw this video about pregerminating grass seed by mixing it with soil in a wheelbarrow and covering it for a few days:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJUCPa-8dEw

This seems like an easier process than soaking the seed in water and changing the water every 12 hours.

Has anyone tried pregerminating in soil and how do you think it would compare?


----------



## Thick n Dense

jpzsports said:


> I'm planning on spot seeding some areas after digging out patches of triv.
> 
> I saw this video about pregerminating grass seed by mixing it with soil in a wheelbarrow and covering it for a few days:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems like an easier process than soaking the seed in water and changing the water every 12 hours.
> 
> Has anyone tried pregerminating in soil and how do you think it would compare?


Interesting.

I say watch the day time night time temps. 
Not always but when I seeded it was warmer inside than out side. 
I think thats a pretty good reason to choose one vs the other.

The seed gets added to a spreading medium anyway

Also inside you have a bit of control of water temp.
I always tried to mix hot and cold to get room temp water


----------



## jpzsports

Thick n Dense said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I say watch the day time night time temps.
> Not always but when I seeded it was warmer inside than out side.
> I think thats a pretty good reason to choose one vs the other.
> 
> The seed gets added to a spreading medium anyway
> 
> Also inside you have a bit of control of water temp.
> I always tried to mix hot and cold to get room temp water


Thanks. Ya, it is definitely warmer inside than outside right now. The garage is 60 degrees and inside the house would be 68. I could do the mix with soil in a wheelbarrow in the garage or I could do the bucket with water in the house.

Has anyone had better success with one method over the other?


----------



## gm560

jpzsports said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> I say watch the day time night time temps.
> Not always but when I seeded it was warmer inside than out side.
> I think thats a pretty good reason to choose one vs the other.
> 
> The seed gets added to a spreading medium anyway
> 
> Also inside you have a bit of control of water temp.
> I always tried to mix hot and cold to get room temp water
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Ya, it is definitely warmer inside than outside right now. The garage is 60 degrees and inside the house would be 68. I could do the mix with soil in a wheelbarrow in the garage or I could do the bucket with water in the house.
> 
> Has anyone had better success with one method over the other?
Click to expand...

Personally I would rather do the bucket. Just seems cleaner, easier to control, easier to spread, etc.


----------



## probara

I stumbled onto yet a different method by Daniel Hibbert on YouTube. A shorter soak in very warm water (8 hrs), followed by drying in nutrient rich medium. He uses ryegrass though. But he has some absolutely amazing results on his channel in general, and interesting to see a slightly different approach from the UK. (FYI his videos are no frills or BS and has a very dry sense of humor  )








jpzsports said:


> I'm planning on spot seeding some areas after digging out patches of triv.
> 
> I saw this video about pregerminating grass seed by mixing it with soil in a wheelbarrow and covering it for a few days:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This seems like an easier process than soaking the seed in water and changing the water every 12 hours.
> 
> Has anyone tried pregerminating in soil and how do you think it would compare?


----------



## Grover

This seems like a way to seed after applying a pre emergent.

I'm going to be trying this in a small spot in a few weeks after I have a stump ground. The seeds has tttf *** and prg, so will be interesting to see how this works.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Grover said:


> This seems like a way to seed after applying a pre emergent.
> 
> I'm going to be trying this in a small spot in a few weeks after I have a stump ground. The seeds has tttf KBG and prg, so will be interesting to see how this works.


I wouldn't count on this evading the Pre-Emergant.

The shoot still must dig down at some point. 
My understanding is that seeds still sprout in PreM but the shoot dies when the barrier is encountered.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> Heres a visual for some fence sitters:
> I like the brick to keep the whole thing submerged.


This pre-Germ ended up being a massive success. 
I got this down very late and the Pro Vista babies survived the harsh winter this year and are in a nice tillerring stage with 5-6 shoots.

Not sure if it survived because it's PV or any KBG would have but it was basically in sprout in pout when winter hit, so this kind of blows away the expectations that baby grass can't survive through winter.


----------



## probara

Glad to hear about your success. I am on the final day 5 of soaking some TTTF.

I am wondering if you felt like there was any rot going on after the 5 days, especially with seeds looking to be pretty tightly packed?

I am trying to give the seeds some space in mesh bags and move them around a lot with each water change. But the smell has me worried there still may be some rot taking place. Hoping for the best.



Thick n Dense said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Heres a visual for some fence sitters:
> I like the brick to keep the whole thing submerged.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This pre-Germ ended up being a massive success.
> I got this down very late and the Pro Vista babies survived the harsh winter this year and are in a nice tillerring stage with 5-6 shoots.
> 
> Not sure if it survived because it's PV or any KBG would have but it was basically in sprout in pout when winter hit, so this kind of blows away the expectations that baby grass can't survive through winter.
Click to expand...


----------



## gm560

probara said:


> Glad to hear about your success. I am on the final day 5 of soaking some TTTF.
> 
> I am wondering if you felt like there was any rot going on after the 5 days, especially with seeds looking to be pretty tightly packed?
> 
> I am trying to give the seeds some space in mesh bags and move them around a lot with each water change. But the smell has me worried there still may be some rot taking place. Hoping for the best.


The smell is normal. I think its the seed excreting something as it prepares for germination and is why you should change the water.


----------



## Grover

Thick n Dense said:


> Grover said:
> 
> 
> 
> This seems like a way to seed after applying a pre emergent.
> 
> I'm going to be trying this in a small spot in a few weeks after I have a stump ground. The seeds has tttf KBG and prg, so will be interesting to see how this works.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't count on this evading the Pre-Emergant.
> 
> The shoot still must dig down at some point.
> My understanding is that seeds still sprout in PreM but the shoot dies when the barrier is encountered.
Click to expand...

Bummer. I thought the pre e prevented germination, not killed the shoot.


----------



## steffen707

gm560 said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the point of changing out the water? Fungus?
> 
> My big issue will be finding a good carrier for the seed without using Milo.
> 
> How much time did it save you on germination? When did you see seedlings?
> 
> Thank you again.
> 
> 
> 
> There may be more than one reason for changing the water. I am assuming some kind of bacteria/fungal/pathogen growth is definitely possible, but the primary reason I heard (forget the source) was that the seed, as it prepares to germinate, secretes a toxin. In nature it is intended to reduce competition to around the seed so it can get more resources. Presumably the seed sitting in a bath of its own toxin would be counter productive, so changing the water periodically gets rid of the toxin contaminated water. I definitely believe this because the water takes on a brown color, almost like tea and have a distinctive smell to it.
> 
> In terms of carrier, why no Milo? Avoiding the N?
> 
> I think something like The Carbon Pro G that I used would work fine. Or one of the Andersons Products like Humic DG or Black Gypsum DG. I'm sure there are others that would work okay too, but would just make sure they wouldnt hurt the seed. I have heard peat moss would work, but then you would not be able to use a broadcast spreader.
> 
> In terms of time saved.... not sure exactly because I did not have a control to test against. But I saw germination on 100% KBG (After Midnight) in 4-5 days. Widespread at 6 days. Anecdotally, I can compare it vs a blend of KBG (~50% Midnight) I did 3 years ago in August without soaking. There I had germination in 7-8 days and widespread around 10-12, if memory serves correctly. I would also say that with soaking, the seed germinated MUCH more uniformly. However I dont know if this is the soaking or a function of better weather, as I was able to avoid any washout rains in the week or so after seed down. Here was the lawn 6 days after seeding:
> 
> 
> 
> and 19 days after seeding:
> 
> 
> 
> vs 17 days after seeding without soaking a while back. Same lawn, different angle. I know its not quite fair since this one is -2 days but you can see what I mean in terms of uniformity.
Click to expand...

I'm not caught up yet on the whole thread, but I couldn't wait.

Last year I did a 3k reno the normal way and fought like 9 inches of rain in 72 hours, not kidding. It sucked, washed out everything, I had to reseed and peat moss everything. I've got about 100sf of spots that need reseeding, I'm going to try pregermination. That would be sweet.

If it works, I'll just pregerminate a batch each spring to touch up some areas.


----------



## Garz

I have been starting *** and RPR in pots for a while and then plugging bare spots. Works great


----------



## jackallis

Majahops said:


> For me, I thought laying burlap over my seed worked so well that I think I will do that next time still, instead of pregerminating. Laying burlap over my KBG seed stood up just fine thru hurricane Ida and that was on a slope. Burlap man, so simple, but so magic.


questions:
1. why type of burlap is it - compnay?
2. when did you take it out? i got massive slope and tyring to figure out when i need to take it out. 
3. when you took it out did it pull out the grass?


----------



## TheThirstyTurtle

This is a very interesting thread. I didn't get around to reading all the posts yet, but it seems the pre-germinated seed may be slightly difficult to spread because it's so moist.

Has anyone ever tried laying out the pre-germinated, moist seed on a tarp and leaving it out in the sun for a day or two to dry out enough so that it could be spread through a broadcast or drop spreader? That may make it easier to spread the seed over a large area rather than just some patches. Not sure if the drying out on a tarp could stunt or kill any of the pre-germinated seed though.


----------



## steffen707

TheThirstyTurtle said:


> This is a very interesting thread. I didn't get around to reading all the posts yet, but it seems the pre-germinated seed may be slightly difficult to spread because it's so moist.
> 
> Has anyone ever tried laying out the pre-germinated, moist seed on a tarp and leaving it out in the sun for a day or two to dry out enough so that it could be spread through a broadcast or drop spreader? That may make it easier to spread the seed over a large area rather than just some patches. Not sure if the drying out on a tarp could stunt or kill any of the pre-germinated seed though.


Most mix the seed with milorganite as a carrier. That's what I'm trying in two weeks.


----------



## confused_boner

TheThirstyTurtle said:


> This is a very interesting thread. I didn't get around to reading all the posts yet, but it seems the pre-germinated seed may be slightly difficult to spread because it's so moist.
> 
> Has anyone ever tried laying out the pre-germinated, moist seed on a tarp and leaving it out in the sun for a day or two to dry out enough so that it could be spread through a broadcast or drop spreader? That may make it easier to spread the seed over a large area rather than just some patches. Not sure if the drying out on a tarp could stunt or kill any of the pre-germinated seed though.


Ideally you would want to get it spread into the lawn and remoistened as quickly as possible. Drying out the seed as germination is underway is not ideal, considering the big goal is to keep it lightly moist continuously until it sprouts.


----------



## Jacks_Designs

I started my pre germination last night. I did a paper towel test several weeks ago. that took about 5 days with the KBG I had.


----------



## probara

I saw a variation on the soaking strategy on youtube by Lawn Tools; instead of fully soaking for 5 days, you soak for day 1, followed by only rinsing seeds every 12-24 hrs to keep them wet, but no fully submerged.

Anyone tried or have thoughts on the full soak vs rinse strategies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nViQ2Cjkx5E


----------



## steffen707

probara said:


> I saw a variation on the soaking strategy on youtube by Lawn Tools; instead of fully soaking for 5 days, you soak for day 1, followed by only rinsing seeds every 12-24 hrs to keep them wet, but no fully submerged.
> 
> Anyone tried or have thoughts on the full soak vs rinse strategies?


I saw that video too, I'm going to try it. Some people say the grass seeds put out a chemical/hormone that reduces overcrowding. So the thought is that you rinse the seed every 12 hours to keep them moist but also to get ride of that chemical/hormone. Sounds plausible.


----------



## SnootchieBootchies

probara said:


> I saw a variation on the soaking strategy on youtube by Lawn Tools; instead of fully soaking for 5 days, you soak for day 1, followed by only rinsing seeds every 12-24 hrs to keep them wet, but no fully submerged.
> 
> Anyone tried or have thoughts on the full soak vs rinse strategies?


I did this on my shady bare areas this spring with good success. I didn't use the dual bucket and paint strainer (wish I had, looks a lot easier that way). Used single bucket and a pillow case and changed water every 12 or so hours and stored in an indoor closet. It was a pain to get the pillow case of seed back in the bucket for sure. I had it tied off and the water would take a while to penetrate it and push the air our. Started stacking gallons of liquid fertilizer on top to add pressure and accelerate that and slowly adding water back. Used some generic milorganite to spread it. Wish I could add more clarity on speed of germination, but we had a pretty good cold spell unexpectedly which likely slowed things down. I have used the same seed in the fall without pre germ, but due to different seasons and that cold snap, dont think one can really make a comparison. I just know that the germination rate was good and the grass is thriving in the bare areas where I used it. Assuming we get enough rain to lift the full watering ban, I'll do the same this fall in my back yard.


----------



## steffen707

I have only read of moderate to great success with pre germination. I had a ton of rain during my reno last year, so if I can reduce the "pout and pray" stage of waiting 7 days for my kbg to sprout, I'm all for it, less water used too.


----------



## steffen707

I started the pregermination yesterday. Got two buckets, drilled holes in one, put my 3.75lbs of kbg into a paint strainer and zip tied it.

Used a 10lb dumbell to weight down the seed submerged in water for 24 hours.

Emptied the water, added fresh water, submerged the bag of seed a few times and emptied that water. Now the seed is sitting inside both buckets. So any water that drips out will just sink into the first bucket, there's about a two inch gap.

Need to resubmerge the seed every 12 or 24 hours. And dump the water out. Kbg should be ready in 5-7 days I've read/heard.


----------



## Jacks_Designs

I just got done by using the "milorganite" instructions. I only had time to do 3 days before it needed to go down but I noticed a lot of grass at day 7 from seed down. Last year it was 10 days with no pre germination.

3 days after seed went down I had some heavy rain come. Some washout happened and I'm now using the method above and will be able to do it this way for 5 days.

For those interested I learned about the above method from ProTurfTalks on discord.com


----------



## Jacks_Designs

5 1/2 days. Amazing how this works.


----------



## steffen707

7 days kbg, I would have done it yesterday dat6 except it was rainy. The seed was a clumpy mess and I was worried, mixed with milorganite and it spread like butter. Such a homogeneous mixture. As long as it works, I'll never do seed the "old" way. 
It didn't stick to the paint strainer, I have my first greenish grass blade!

In the future, I'll flip the bag during each rinse, because the seed at the bottom was definitely further on than the stuff on the top of bag. (bottom was more wet, more often)


----------



## rookie_in_VA

Thanks for the pictures @steffen707. Very helpful to see.


----------



## Cdub5_

I've done two renovations, one each for the last two falls we've had. The first time, no pre-germinationg. KBG seed took fffooorrreeevvvveeerrrr to seed. Luckily, we had zero rain so it had enough time to do its thing before the threat of any washout.
Last fall, my 2nd reno, I pre-germinated the kbg. I think I did 5.5 days and put it down on the 6th day. I had little grass sprouts within days. It dramatically reduced the time from seed down to actually seeing results.
If I ever do a kbg renovation again I will absolutely pre-germinate my seeds. Totally worth it, and in my opinion I think it should be recommended/standard to pre-germinate. Kbg takes so long to sprout if you seed kbg like other seeds then this increases it's chances of a washout, being eaten by birds, or whatever million other reasons that could go wrong during that 2-3 week seeding period.


----------



## steffen707

Cdub5_ said:


> I've done two renovations, one each for the last two falls we've had. The first time, no pre-germinationg. KBG seed took fffooorrreeevvvveeerrrr to seed. Luckily, we had zero rain so it had enough time to do its thing before the threat of any washout.
> Last fall, my 2nd reno, I pre-germinated the kbg. I think I did 5.5 days and put it down on the 6th day. I had little grass sprouts within days. It dramatically reduced the time from seed down to actually seeing results.
> If I ever do a kbg renovation again I will absolutely pre-germinate my seeds. Totally worth it, and in my opinion I think it should be recommended/standard to pre-germinate. Kbg takes so long to sprout if you seed kbg like other seeds then this increases it's chances of a washout, being eaten by birds, or whatever million other reasons that could go wrong during that 2-3 week seeding period.


YUP! Last year my reno had something like 7-9 inches in 40 hours. I had to re-seed and re peatmoss the whole thing, it sucked. Hopefully I didn't let it go to far before seed down.

Bit of advice, get your sprinklers fixed and adjusted WEEKS before seed down day. Every extra thing that comes up makes the stress higher and I just simply ran out of time.

I also highly recommend the two bucket system. It let's the bag continue to drain into the bottom bucket during days 2+.


----------



## Duxwig

What ratio of milo to #\seed did everyone use for their mixes?

A bag per ????

And if so, did you do starter fert a few weeks later?

Pre germ last year went well mixed w peat and hand spread but doing patches and large areas both this year and seed butter seemed it may be easier to separate and portion. 
(Literally mathed the sq ft of probably 40+ patches from 1x1s to 15x15 over 1800 sq ft so need to divide 5lbs into sections appropriately)


----------



## steffen707

I did 1 bag of Milo to 3lb kbg seed I think.

Onece you mix up your milo/seed, it would be pretty easy to use a scale to proportion out the allocation for each patch. The Milo mix was very homogeneous/uniform.


----------



## aug0211

Would love to do this but can't think of a scalable approach to cover an acre. Any tips?


----------



## steffen707

How much kbg seed do you need for an acre?80-120lbs?

I'd say you could mix 5-10lbs kbg with a bag of milo.
5 lbs per bucket.....do some math. 16-24 buckets.....

Also id totally look into buying a cheap harbor freight cement mixer. Throw 2-4 bags milo and 10-20 lbs of seed in that sucker per batch........ :nod:

The hardest part will be finding the Milo and seed.

Wish I had some land, just so I could try this. :mrgreen:


----------



## aug0211

steffen707 said:


> How much kbg seed do you need for an acre?80-120lbs?
> 
> I'd say you could mix 5-10lbs kbg with a bag of milo.
> 5 lbs per bucket.....do some math. 16-24 buckets.....
> 
> Also id totally look into buying a cheap harbor freight cement mixer. Throw 2-4 bags milo and 10-20 lbs of seed in that sucker per batch........ :nod:
> 
> The hardest part will be finding the Milo and seed.
> 
> Wish I had some land, just so I could try this. :mrgreen:


About 130 lbs of seed at ~3lbs/k.

So 26 buckets of 5 lbs if it were seed only (which I have to do anyway to mix my 3-way KBG blend). Add in the milo and the bucket count grows… maybe up to 50 buckets now?

Cheapest mixers I've found at reputable places are ~$300. Not horrible when we consider cost of seed alone, but worse than a $50 paddle mixer.

Sourcing seed has been fun as you said. Milo is actually in stock right now at my local Home Depot. Need to pick that up tonight before it's gone!

130 lbs of seed / 3 lbs per bag of milo = ~43 bags of milo * ~$17 per bag of Milo = ~$750 in Milo.

Adding up Milo and mixer costs puts me around roughly $1,000 added cost for this approach. 😬


----------



## jcs43920

It definitely works. The issue is getting it spread accurately and evenly over the course of the lawn without seed sticking together. I've heard of people using different things. I've tried peat moss to help dry it and spread it. It kind of worked but some areas got seeded too heavy and others light. Ended up having to go back over some areas.


----------



## steffen707

aug0211 said:


> About 130 lbs of seed at ~3lbs/k.
> 
> So 26 buckets of 5 lbs if it were seed only (which I have to do anyway to mix my 3-way KBG blend). Add in the milo and the bucket count grows… maybe up to 50 buckets now?
> 
> Adding up Milo and mixer costs puts me around roughly $1,000 added cost for this approach. 😬


Not quite right.

I would do 5lbs seed per bucket per strainer on the water pre-germination thing.

Then either mix 1 bag of milo with seed in a wheel barrow, or possibly get a cement mixer to do the mixing. You don't actually put the milo in a 5gallon bucket. I think mixing the milo and seed in buckets would be a huge PITA (Pain in the a$$). unfortunately you have to put it into somthing to mix it, then transfer that to your spreader. Maybe buy a kids swimming pool or feeding trough? Something water tight, but big enough to mix milo and create your mixture. Probably need to do it 4-13 times depending on how big the container is.

I mixed 3lbs seed to 1 bag of milo, but you might be able to do 5lbs of seed per bag milo. That would reduce your bags to 28.

A mixing paddle could work, but I bet you're going to have seed/milo coming out of the wheel barrow.

How do you plan to spread the seed/milo? Tow behind spreader i would assume?

$1000 may seem like a lot, but what is your time worth? You're going to have a lot more cost in your time. After you used the cement mixer you could turn around and sell it. Or you could rent one. I would just be afraid of concrete residue being mixed with your seed, but that's probably not a real concern.

FYI, i'm just throwing out suggestions. I have never done a pre-germ reno before. The photos i posted is my first rodeo. Your mileage may vary. *If I were you, I would test this 5lbs/bucket seed pre-germ, then mix with 1 bag milo. Make sure you have proof of concept before you go full bore.*


----------



## Duxwig

Those that did milo mix with the pre germ, did you otherwise spray growth reg on the rest of the lawn to slow it down to give your Pre-germ patches more time or didn't matter?

Not planning to PGR, but had lots of peat. Last time I mixed w peat in a wheel barrow for the entire spread mix which sucked but went better than not. Thought doing milo with my 5lb with a tad of peat to help dry it so I can hand spread.

Some of the spots I'll be working w and my underage help.


----------



## steffen707

Duxwig said:


> Those that did milo mix with the pre germ, did you otherwise spray growth reg on the rest of the lawn to slow it down to give your Pre-germ patches more time or didn't matter?
> 
> Not planning to PGR, but had lots of peat. Last time I mixed w peat in a wheel barrow for the entire spread mix which sucked but went better than not. Thought doing milo with my 5lb with a tad of peat to help dry it so I can hand spread.
> 
> Some of the spots I'll be working w and my underage help.


My reno is a rectangle, so I didn't spray PGR because I won't have grass growing inside my reno like you will.

The bags of peatmoss I just bought had a ton of wetness to them, so I don't think it would help, also the Milo is far more consistent in size than peatmoss, so a uniform distribution is easier, I think.

It only took me about 10 MI utes to mix the seed with milo, and I hand seeded plenty of edges with the milo/seed mix.


----------



## aug0211

I'm thinking of possibly swapping out the 5 gallon buckets for mid-size trash cans. Maybe run a couple sets next to each other in parallel.

This should be more feasible for the amount of seed I need (1 acre).

Just need to think of good "bag" solutions to hold the seed in larger quantities. Or lots of mini baggies all thrown in the trash cans.

I'm also concerned about getting a good homogenous mix of my 3 seeds and milo.

Mixing is what has me the most nervous


----------



## steffen707

Mix the seed separately first.


----------



## LIgrass

I'm trying this and using a target bag as the seed holder.
I'm going to try MIlorganite, sand, and peat moss as the drying/spreading materials to see which one works best.

Which do you guys recommend as the best material to mix with the wet seed for spreading?


----------



## steffen707

LIgrass said:


> I'm trying this and using a target bag as the seed holder.
> I'm going to try MIlorganite, sand, and peat moss as the drying/spreading materials to see which one works best.
> 
> Which do you guys recommend as the best material to mix with the wet seed for spreading?


Milorganite, but I never tried sand. I wouldn't think peatmoss would be uniform enough.


----------



## kman6234

Is there anything issues with pre germinating for a reno and applying tenacity at seed down?


----------



## steffen707

kman6234 said:


> Is there anything issues with pre germinating for a reno and applying tenacity at seed down?


Check tenacity label if it's safe for your seed.

I just sprayed tenacity a week ago with my seed down day, and I have grass babies now. So tenacity was fine with my kbg pre-germination.


----------



## Allan-00

LIgrass said:


> I'm going to try MIlorganite, sand, and peat moss as the drying/spreading materials to see which one works best.


Which one did you find works best/worst?


----------



## LIgrass

Allan-00 said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to try MIlorganite, sand, and peat moss as the drying/spreading materials to see which one works best.
> 
> 
> 
> Which one did you find works best/worst?
Click to expand...

I had to hold off, we were supposed to get a ton of rain today and of course not 1 drop. It will get done tomorrow or Wednesday the latest & will let you know. What I did so far is I removed the seed from the water bucket leaving some in the bag and some in a big plastic sterilite bin to start drying. I also added dry seed to it which immediately starts soaking up the water from the wet seed. I'm at the phase where it's starting to stink.


----------



## steffen707

This must be THEE season for pre-germination. I've seen several videos on YouTube, even Connor Ward did a video on it!


----------



## kman6234

steffen707 said:


> This must be THEE season for pre-germination. I've seen several videos on YouTube, even Connor Ward did a video on it!


I'm jumping on the bandwagon as well. Just began my soaking this morning.


----------



## Thick n Dense

I think theres a legimite concern over letting the seeds sprout ... I think that damage can occur during spreading if they have sprouted.

Which leads Into #2 is that I dont like the wetting method > i havent tested myself but im about 99.9% sure that the seeds need oxygen to germinate 
Wetting only and not submerging the seed in water exposes the seeds to oxygen which leads them to sprout. 
I belive that we want to prime the seed so that its sprouts basically the day after it hits the soil and completely submerging is the way to do that by eliminating exposure to atmospheric air.

Then lastly another reason to change the water is to avoid any bacterial or fungal build up over the days.


----------



## steffen707

Thick n Dense said:


> I think theres a legimite concern over letting the seeds sprout ... I think that damage can occur during spreading if they have sprouted.
> 
> Which leads Into #2 is that I dont like the wetting method > i havent tested myself but im about 99.9% sure that the seeds need oxygen to germinate
> Wetting only and not submerging the seed in water exposes the seeds to oxygen which leads them to sprout.
> I belive that we want to prime the seed so that its sprouts basically the day after it hits the soil and completely submerging is the way to do that by eliminating exposure to atmospheric air.
> 
> Then lastly another reason to change the water is to avoid any bacterial or fungal build up over the days.


I submerged the seed for the first 24 hrs, but then only wetted the seeds every 24hrs after. The bottom of my seed bag had sprouting. After spreading the seed, it's taken many days to get grass babies, but it definitely seems more consistent across the lawn.

Next reno I'm going to do the submerged the whole time with water changes and see how that goes.

Maybe by my final reno4 I'll have it dialed in.


----------



## Majahops

Just wanted to put in a plug again for Burlap if you guys want to grow KBG and don't want to lose your seed to torrential rains on a slope. I used it last year, and we had multiple major storms, and I really didn't lose any seed at all.

If you don't have an enormous lawn, and just want to make sure you don't lose your seed, I cannot recommend burlap strongly enough. If you have an enormous lawn, or are just interested in experimenting, then totally get the pregermination thing.


----------



## steffen707

Majahops said:


> Just wanted to put in a plug again for Burlap if you guys want to grow KBG and don't want to lose your seed to torrential rains on a slope. I used it last year, and we had multiple major storms, and I really didn't lose any seed at all.
> 
> If you don't have an enormous lawn, and just want to make sure you don't lose your seed, I cannot recommend burlap strongly enough. If you have an enormous lawn, or are just interested in experimenting, then totally get the pregermination thing.


When do you remove the burlap from the ground? Did it tear out the grass at all?


----------



## Majahops

> When do you remove the burlap from the ground? Did it tear out the grass at all?


Once the last growing grass got to 1" above the burlap (that means some of the earlier growers will be 1.5-2.5 inches above and that's fine). That was an arbitrary decision, but I figured it was long enough that the burlap no longer served any useful purpose. I was sure some grass would tear out when I pulled up the burlap, but was amazed when essentially none did. I've done it several times since elsewhere on my property, and it just doesn't tear much if any grass out, regardless of how I pull up the burlap. I'm not in this industry, I make no money from promoting this, I just really want to share how awesome it is… and I've tried it all, mulch takifiers, the straw mats, the blue sticky one that falls apart, the plastic-like mesh one that gets caught on your foot as you walk across the grass - I can't be the only one, the takified straw… all of it. Burlap is as good as any of them in any dimension - water retention, allowing for sun, uniform seeding, erosion prevention, bird theft prevention, all of it. One additional benefit is that's it makes it so I don't need to use Peat moss. What I don't like about Peat moss is that it tends to end up being distributed unevenly (even if originally applied in a neat fine layer with a compost roller/sifter) once it gets wet. I'm sure you guys have noticed peaks and valleys of peat moss and naked adjacent soil surface after the first rain - especially if you have a clay-heavy soil, almost like looking at a bunch of islands separated by level water in the Pacific. And you'll notice the seed grows on the islands of peat moss and seems to wash away from the adjacent naked soil areas, thus uniformity is lost, especially on sloped surfaces (*see below for example from my lawn*). By using Burlap, you can lose the peat moss and it's associated peaks and valleys, and instead have uniform grass seed distribution even thru the worst of storms.


----------



## LIgrass

Allan-00 said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to try MIlorganite, sand, and peat moss as the drying/spreading materials to see which one works best.
> 
> 
> 
> Which one did you find works best/worst?
Click to expand...

Milorganite does the job the best. Sand, if it's bone dry works good too. If the sand you start with is damp at all it will cause the spreader to clog. Both work though, didn't bother with the peat as that won't spread as good as the other 2 even by itself.


----------



## Mtsdream

steffen707 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think theres a legimite concern over letting the seeds sprout ... I think that damage can occur during spreading if they have sprouted.
> 
> Which leads Into #2 is that I dont like the wetting method > i havent tested myself but im about 99.9% sure that the seeds need oxygen to germinate
> Wetting only and not submerging the seed in water exposes the seeds to oxygen which leads them to sprout.
> I belive that we want to prime the seed so that its sprouts basically the day after it hits the soil and completely submerging is the way to do that by eliminating exposure to atmospheric air.
> 
> Then lastly another reason to change the water is to avoid any bacterial or fungal build up over the days.
> 
> 
> 
> I submerged the seed for the first 24 hrs, but then only wetted the seeds every 24hrs after. The bottom of my seed bag had sprouting. After spreading the seed, it's taken many days to get grass babies, but it definitely seems more consistent across the lawn.
> 
> Next reno I'm going to do the submerged the whole time with water changes and see how that goes.
> 
> Maybe by my final reno4 I'll have it dialed in.
Click to expand...

I did the same and at least half of the seed had taproots. Put down 8-23 so we'll see if or how long it takes .,


----------



## steffen707

Mtsdream said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think theres a legimite concern over letting the seeds sprout ... I think that damage can occur during spreading if they have sprouted.
> 
> Which leads Into #2 is that I dont like the wetting method > i havent tested myself but im about 99.9% sure that the seeds need oxygen to germinate
> Wetting only and not submerging the seed in water exposes the seeds to oxygen which leads them to sprout.
> I belive that we want to prime the seed so that its sprouts basically the day after it hits the soil and completely submerging is the way to do that by eliminating exposure to atmospheric air.
> 
> Then lastly another reason to change the water is to avoid any bacterial or fungal build up over the days.
> 
> 
> 
> I submerged the seed for the first 24 hrs, but then only wetted the seeds every 24hrs after. The bottom of my seed bag had sprouting. After spreading the seed, it's taken many days to get grass babies, but it definitely seems more consistent across the lawn.
> 
> Next reno I'm going to do the submerged the whole time with water changes and see how that goes.
> 
> Maybe by my final reno4 I'll have it dialed in.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did the same and at least half of the seed had taproots. Put down 8-23 so we'll see if or how long it takes .,
Click to expand...

What happens to the seeds with taproots after you put them on the soil, does the taproot continue into the ground, or does that seed die?


----------



## confused_boner

Ideally you do not want the taproot sprouting because it will certainly get damaged when mixed with the carrier material (ie: super dry Milorganite)

If you have sprouts you waited too long.

If you are hand planting the seeds into a pot or the soil then sprouts are fine because you can gently place them in the soil by hand and water them to keep the taproot moist.

But with hundreds of thousands of grass seed, that is obviously not an option for us.


----------



## Thick n Dense

confused_boner said:


> Ideally you do not want the taproot sprouting because it will certainly get damaged when mixed with the carrier material (ie: super dry Milorganite)
> 
> If you have sprouts you waited too long.
> 
> If you are hand planting the seeds into a pot or the soil then sprouts are fine because you can gently place them in the soil by hand and water them to keep the taproot moist.
> 
> But with hundreds of thousands of grass seed, that is obviously not an option for us.


See my post about the seed being comoletely submerged ...

It would be nice to know IF the seed will sprout while completley submerged or not ... anyone know ?


----------



## Thenenk

Just tried thisand my kbg started poking up from the ground today. 6 days fully submerged changing water 2x a day and 5 days in the dirt. That has saved so much water already.


----------



## kman6234

Just put my seed down after soaking 5 days. Mixing with milo worked well for me. Looking forward to seeing when germination will happen!


----------



## Michael303

Thought I'd jump on the bandwagon here. I started a reno, my second, this summer and came across this thread while searching the board to refresh my memory. I decided to give it a go and followed the soak and drain method in the Lawn Tools video.

I soaked for 6 days then mixed with chicken poop fert, dropped the seed and sprayed Tenacity.

The spreading worked great and now 6 days after seed down I'm finding the very first sprouts. My seed is an 80:20 mix of Bewitched and Blueberry. Pretty impressive considering how long I waited for my bluegrass to sprout on my first reno. Would definitely do it again.


----------



## solarcrisis

Is it just me or does the grass seed smell like vomit?

It's been 4 days since I started pre geminating, change out the water every 12 hrs.


----------



## AkimboJimbo

solarcrisis said:


> Is it just me or does the grass seed smell like vomit?
> 
> It's been 4 days since I started pre geminating, change out the water every 12 hrs.


It's not you 😂 it's not a very pleasant smell


----------



## solarcrisis

AkimboJimbo said:


> solarcrisis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me or does the grass seed smell like vomit?
> 
> It's been 4 days since I started pre geminating, change out the water every 12 hrs.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not you 😂 it's not a very pleasant smell
Click to expand...

Ok, it's bittersweet. Glad it's not sign of my ruining the seed


----------



## LIgrass

confused_boner said:


> Ideally you do not want the taproot sprouting because it will certainly get damaged when mixed with the carrier material (ie: super dry Milorganite)
> 
> If you have sprouts you waited too long.
> 
> If you are hand planting the seeds into a pot or the soil then sprouts are fine because you can gently place them in the soil by hand and water them to keep the taproot moist.
> 
> But with hundreds of thousands of grass seed, that is obviously not an option for us.


I had some sprouts too. Even at day 5 I saw some. Day 7, because I fell behind, I had at least a hundred sprouted. Hopefully not too many got lost to that.


----------



## confused_boner

LIgrass said:


> confused_boner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ideally you do not want the taproot sprouting because it will certainly get damaged when mixed with the carrier material (ie: super dry Milorganite)
> 
> If you have sprouts you waited too long.
> 
> If you are hand planting the seeds into a pot or the soil then sprouts are fine because you can gently place them in the soil by hand and water them to keep the taproot moist.
> 
> But with hundreds of thousands of grass seed, that is obviously not an option for us.
> 
> 
> 
> I had some sprouts too. Even at day 5 I saw some. Day 7, because I fell behind, I had at least a hundred sprouted. Hopefully not too many got lost to that.
Click to expand...

Sounds like you caught it just in time


----------



## NHlawn00

Anybody try this with zoysia?


----------



## mik3503

If people are using milorganite with the pregerm KBG to help spread, do you still toss down starter fertilizer later? If not do you just spray with tenacity since skipping Scotts starter fert with it?


----------



## Thenenk

mik3503 said:


> If people are using milorganite with the pregerm KBG to help spread, do you still toss down starter fertilizer later? If not do you just spray with tenacity since skipping Scotts starter fert with it?


With the recommended rate of milo to seed I don't think additional fert is needed at all. You could also use granulated humic though instead and still do an additional starter fert application.


----------



## steffen707

mik3503 said:


> If people are using milorganite with the pregerm KBG to help spread, do you still toss down starter fertilizer later? If not do you just spray with tenacity since skipping Scotts starter fert with it?


That's what I did, spread with milorganite, didn't add any starter fertilizer, but sprayed with tenacity then covered with peatmoss.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Just watched connors video
Man that was painful to watch him trying to mix 200#s of humate with seed

He should have mixed X amount if humate with x amount of seed then spread on x amount of lawn and repeat 
instead of mixing it all at one time


----------



## steffen707

Thick n Dense said:


> Just watched connors video
> Man that was painful to watch him trying to mix 200#s of humate with seed
> 
> He should have mixed X amount if humate with x amount of seed then spread on x amount of lawn and repeat
> instead of mixing it all at one time


Absolutely! I thought the same thing.


----------



## Thick n Dense

steffen707 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just watched connors video
> Man that was painful to watch him trying to mix 200#s of humate with seed
> 
> He should have mixed X amount if humate with x amount of seed then spread on x amount of lawn and repeat
> instead of mixing it all at one time
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely! I thought the same thing.
Click to expand...

'Twas jealous of that level humate though hahaha

Over 8k thats a lot


----------



## Biggylawns

I did it with poa supina and got germination in under a week in a lot of areas. I used starter fert as the binder. Mixed bag for me though: some areas took 4 days, some took approx. 8. First time doing it.


----------



## steffen707

Biggylawns said:


> I did it with poa supina and got germination in under a week in a lot of areas. I used starter fert as the binder. Mixed bag for me though: some areas took 4 days, some took approx. 8. First time doing it.


I'm having mixed results too, but Im going to try the full submersion way next time, I only rinsed after the first 24 hours.


----------



## ThatPoorGuy888

I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.


----------



## T-McD

ThatPoorGuy888 said:


> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.


Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.


----------



## LIgrass

T-McD said:


> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
Click to expand...

I spread most on day 8 after soaking and am liking the results so far. Germination looks like day 9 of a normal kbg reno yet it's only day 4 for me. I did have over 100 sprouts in the seed bag though.


----------



## ThatPoorGuy888

LIgrass said:


> T-McD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I spread most on day 8 after soaking and am liking the results so far. Germination looks like day 9 of a normal kbg reno yet it's only day 4 for me. I did have over 100 sprouts in the seed bag though.
Click to expand...

Is that so? Well I hope the Lawn Gods will have mercy on my seeds and let it germinate. This is my first time overseeding and with midnight ***. Hopefully i did not waste my wife's money.


----------



## ThatPoorGuy888

T-McD said:


> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
Click to expand...

Did you see any blades yet?


----------



## ThatPoorGuy888

ThatPoorGuy888 said:


> T-McD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you see any blades yet?
Click to expand...

Ok, it's the 10th day and I just saw white roots from the batch I did not spread yet. Probably it depends on what type of seeds you are trying to pre germinate.


----------



## T-McD

ThatPoorGuy888 said:


> T-McD said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you see any blades yet?
Click to expand...

I just checked and only saw 1 little sprout out of ~20 spots. It is only day 4.5 since seed down so hopefully I will see something more encouraging within the next few days. This project was just overseeding some heavily trafficked areas as well as some areas that had been smothered with sand due to leveling so I am not looking for widespread success however I would have thought that germination would have been further along at this point. Maybe I am being too optimistic/expecting to much from pre-germinating the seed… idk… Trying to trust the process.


----------



## Pounder

Thank you to everyone here who provided guidance on pre-germination! Really great stuff!

My experience:
I have Granite KBG. I made a test plot area a few months back and seeded the area with the standard approach - prep, seed, peat, water. It took 14 days to see germination and is now just really starting to fill in.

For my larger overseed, I decided to pre-germinate. Did 8 lbs for 6 days in a pillow-case/ bucket changing water every 12 hours (I can confirm the water smelled like puke as someone mentioned above - especially on days 4-6).

On seeding day, I let the seeds drain for a few hours as I scalped, detatched, scarify, and areate. I then mixed the drained seeds with Milogranite. I had no issues getting that mixture homogeneous & dry with wheelbarrow and shovel and then into the spreader.

I put the seeds down via the spreader, rolled them, and covered it with some peat (in certain areas) and slopemaster pellets as I have a sloped yard.

I had germination in 4 days. I have widespread germination on day 5 (today).

As a side note, we had like 7 inches of rain over a few days (day 2-3) and probably benefited from the wet weather but also have some washout areas that will have to contend with. I will probably start a pre-geminate a few lbs today and get those spots filled back in this weekend.

Again, *Thank You *to this forum for posting this approach. To say I am delighted with the result is an understatement!


----------



## BigRedGun

Pictures or it didn't happen&#128556;&#128514;!!


----------



## steffen707

T-McD said:


> ThatPoorGuy888 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have done the pre germination but did not see any roots sprouting. I am also overdue and it is already the 7th day today when I spread the seeds. I hope there is still a chance on the seeds to germinate.
> 
> 
> 
> Same boat for me. Life happened and I ended up spreading on the 7th day as well. I didn't see any tap roots either so fingers crossed for good germination.
Click to expand...

I had tap roots growing on the wetest portion of my pre-germ seed. I added milo and spread into the seed bed. I've had decent germination in some spots and little to no germination in other spots.......could be the amount of shade in my reno area, but i was excited to have this germinate quicker and more uniformly........


----------



## steffen707

BigRedGun said:


> Pictures or it didn't happen😬😂!!


I 2nd this!


----------



## LIgrass

I tried pre-germing and it sped up the reno by 4-5 days I would say compared to past renovations. I agree with a previous poster who said this should be the standard, at least for KBG. There are so many benefits like saving water, avoiding washouts, avoiding the seedbed drying out over the 10-15 day period for kbg.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=532099


----------



## Rile78

Has anyone not had quicker germination by using this method? I soaked KBG for 5 days, changed water every 12 hours on the dot and today is day 6 post seed down and I'm not seeing any germination. My weather and watering schedule has been on point too.


----------



## Kiza

Rile78 said:


> Has anyone not had quicker germination by using this method? I soaked KBG for 5 days, changed water every 12 hours on the dot and today is day 6 post seed down and I'm not seeing any germination. My weather and watering schedule has been on point too.


Here are some tips.

1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.

2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.

3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.

4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.

5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.

6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn.

7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing.

For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.


----------



## mik3503

Here to report another success story with pregerminating KBG!
Seeds sourced from Twin City Seeds. Pregerminated 5 days (even split of Mazuma, Bewitched, Midnight cultivars). Soaked the entire time, changing out water every 12 hours. Mixed 5:1 milorganite to seed and it spread well with my broadcast spreader. On Labor day, I put down about 4 pounds per 1000 ft, yard size is 5k. Top dressed with peat moss. Did not use a lawn roller as I was lazy to go rent one.
Widespread germination on day ~5-6! My neighbor is just blow away at how fast I got the seeds to germinate that he's considering doing it now.


----------



## Thenenk

mik3503 said:


> Here to report another success story with pregerminating KBG!
> Seeds sourced from Twin City Seeds. Pregerminated 5 days (even split of Mazuma, Bewitched, Midnight cultivars). Soaked the entire time, changing out water every 12 hours. Mixed 5:1 milorganite to seed and it spread well with my broadcast spreader. On Labor day, I put down about 4 pounds per 1000 ft, yard size is 5k. Top dressed with peat moss. Did not use a lawn roller as I was lazy to go rent one.
> Widespread germination on day ~5-6! My neighbor is just blow away at how fast I got the seeds to germinate that he's considering doing it now.


This method is a game changer for sure! Also saves so much water!


----------



## steffen707

mik3503 said:


> Here to report another success story with pregerminating KBG!
> Seeds sourced from Twin City Seeds. Pregerminated 5 days (even split of Mazuma, Bewitched, Midnight cultivars). Soaked the entire time, changing out water every 12 hours. Mixed 5:1 milorganite to seed and it spread well with my broadcast spreader. On Labor day, I put down about 4 pounds per 1000 ft, yard size is 5k. Top dressed with peat moss. Did not use a lawn roller as I was lazy to go rent one.
> Widespread germination on day ~5-6! My neighbor is just blow away at how fast I got the seeds to germinate that he's considering doing it now.


He better get on it if he wants to do it this fall yet1

how many days did you soak? 
how many days was it on the ground before it sprouted? 
Total days from pre-germinating to grass?
I think the answer is 5 pre-germ, 5-6 days on soil, total time 10-11 for germination, but correct me if i'm wrong.


----------



## Rile78

Kiza said:


> Rile78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone not had quicker germination by using this method? I soaked KBG for 5 days, changed water every 12 hours on the dot and today is day 6 post seed down and I'm not seeing any germination. My weather and watering schedule has been on point too.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some tips.
> 
> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> 
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> 
> 6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn.
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing.
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
Click to expand...

Amazing write up! I had a second batch of seed soaking for about 36 hours and I decided to try your method. Tomorrow will be 3 days out so fingers crossed for a little quicker germination. These washouts have been killing me!


----------



## Erinweed

I gave it a go too. I soaked my midnight kbg seed for 5.5 days, then put it down on Labor Day morning. I started seeing green on Friday, and today I've got a beautiful green glow happening. It was over 100 degrees for 4 days straight after putting down my seed, so I had to water a lot more than I wanted, but I feel like I saved a lot of water with the shorter time, and I was also able to finish up prepping the yard while it was soaking. Definitely a win.


----------



## Kiza

Rile78 said:


> Tomorrow will be 3 days out so fingers crossed for a little quicker germination. These washouts have been killing me!


After day 3, check each day for germination. I lay the seeds on a flat surface and check from the sides to see if there are any sprouts as the top view can be misleading. Once you see the smallest sprout pop out, seed them asap.


----------



## steffen707

Erinweed said:


> and I was also able to finish up prepping the yard while it was soaking. Definitely a win.


This right here might be the biggest thing for me moving forward. It gives you 5-6 more days of work. Both renos i've completed have run out of time. Of course I can start earlier, but that's always difficult cuz I procrastinate.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Kiza said:


> Rile78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone not had quicker germination by using this method? I soaked KBG for 5 days, changed water every 12 hours on the dot and today is day 6 post seed down and I'm not seeing any germination. My weather and watering schedule has been on point too.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some tips.
> 
> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> 
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> 
> 6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn.
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing.
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
Click to expand...

I disagree with a lot of this


----------



## Allan-00

Thick n Dense said:


> I disagree with a lot of this


So are you going to explain your perspective or just leave it at this?


----------



## Majahops

I'm soaking Mon thru Fri. Going to lay down Sat. I've let things soak too long a couple times, prolly 18 hours on a couple occasions between switching water. Anyone think that should be a big issue? Thanks so much to all those who have taken the time to detail their procedures.


----------



## steffen707

Majahops said:


> I'm soaking Mon thru Fri. Going to lay down Sat. I've let things soak too long a couple times, prolly 18 hours on a couple occasions between switching water. Anyone think that should be a big issue? Thanks so much to all those who have taken the time to detail their procedures.


You ruined it, start over........... JUST KIDDING

it sounds like there are many ways one can do this and have it still work out fine. Without side by side testing, we don't know which is best, but I'm sure you'll be alright.


----------



## Thick n Dense

1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
*Wrong > age of seed doesn't affect germination time. 
Germination time is coded in the plants DNA.
If the seed is too old it simply wont germinate.
*
2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
*Wrong > Oxygen is required to sprout.... we don't want the seed to sprout. 
There's a priming period where the seed needs to be most and wet and warm during X amount of days.
5 days completely submerged primes the seeds. Perhaps more perhaps less we haven't found the optimal time.*

3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
*Define "Germinate significantly better" What does this mean ? 
The seed germinates or it doesn't. 
This point is actually moot to the topic and is a renovation topic.*

4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
*Moot to the topic again.
For the record last year I had seed down around Halloween and it came out fine.
I actually prefer waiting longer in the season because it's easier to keep the seed moist.*

5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
*Moot Point but I agree. Short but frequent waterings *

"6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn."
*This is what this thread is for so you don't need to test.
Follow the procedure and it will work.*

7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing
*Yup >>> this is what happens when you don't keep the bag completely submerged. oxygen gets in and the seeds sprout.
Testing isn't required, follow the procedure. 
From everyone's experience the seeds will not sprout while completely submerged.*

For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
*See above > follow the procedure yo.*

[/quote]
*
I disagree with a lot of this*
[/quote]

*
In general this post would have came across better if it was a " Hey this is my experience and outcomes" 
Instead of assuming what you did and that your assumptions are correct. *


----------



## Thick n Dense

Thick n Dense said:


> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> *Wrong > age of seed doesn't affect germination time.
> Germination time is coded in the plants DNA.
> If the seed is too old it simply wont germinate.
> *
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> *Wrong > Oxygen is required to sprout.... we don't want the seed to sprout.
> There's a priming period where the seed needs to be most and wet and warm during X amount of days.
> 5 days completely submerged primes the seeds. Perhaps more perhaps less we haven't found the optimal time.*
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> *Define "Germinate significantly better" What does this mean ?
> The seed germinates or it doesn't.
> This point is actually moot to the topic and is a renovation topic.*
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> *Moot to the topic again and you contradict yourself here: "start early but it was so hot that the shaded areas germinated faster"
> Highly debated reno topic
> For the record last year I had seed down around Halloween and it came out fine.
> I actually prefer waiting longer in the season because it's easier to keep the seed moist while pre germinating indoors helps bypass the cooler temperatures.*
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> *Moot Point but I agree. Short but frequent waterings *
> 
> "6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn."
> *This is what this thread is for so you don't need to test.
> Follow the procedure and it will work.*
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing
> *Yup >>> this is what happens when you don't keep the bag completely submerged. oxygen gets in and the seeds sprout.
> Testing isn't required, follow the procedure.
> From everyone's experience the seeds will not sprout while completely submerged.*
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
> *See above > follow the procedure yo.*


*
I disagree with a lot of this*
[/quote]

*
In general this post would have came across better if it was a " Hey this is my experience and outcomes" 
Instead of assuming what you did and that your assumptions are correct. *
[/quote]

Disclaimer >>> idk how to edit these posts sorry for the duplicate


----------



## steffen707

just thought i'd add my comments in blue.



Thick n Dense said:


> *Wrong > age of seed doesn't affect germination time.
> Germination time is coded in the plants DNA.
> If the seed is too old it simply wont germinate.
> *
> My seed is roughly 1 year old, been kept in a plastic tote in my basement, i've had good germination this fall. So I know seed can be at least 1 year old. Also if you believe folks that say disturbing the soil can bring up old weed seeds that have been laying in the dirt for....YEARS and they can still turn into weeds, then I would say "old seeds still can work, but new seeds are probably better, but not a necessity."
> 
> 2.
> *Wrong > Oxygen is required to sprout.... we don't want the seed to sprout.
> There's a priming period where the seed needs to be most and wet and warm during X amount of days.
> 5 days completely submerged primes the seeds. Perhaps more perhaps less we haven't found the optimal time.*
> There appear to be many that say keep submerged, and many that say after first 24 hours, just rinse.
> I'll discuss down the post.
> 
> 4.
> For the record last year I had seed down around Halloween and it came out fine.
> I actually prefer waiting longer in the season because it's easier to keep the seed moist.[/b]
> Does Ann Arbor get cold? When is your typical first hard frost? I'm in central wisconsin so a bit more north of you. I'd be afraid to seed KBG on halloween. We've had snow on some halloweens.
> 
> "6.
> *This is what this thread is for so you don't need to test.
> Follow the procedure and it will work.*
> Did anybody actually post a procedure yet? I mean I know many have given what they've tried. I was just copying what
> "The Lawn Tools" guy on YT said,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> he's in the don't keep submerged camp, but mine ended up sprouting in the bag, so next year definately trying the full submersion for 5 day method to avoid the oxygen you discussed in topic 2.
> 
> 7.
> *Yup >>> this is what happens when you don't keep the bag completely submerged. oxygen gets in and the seeds sprout.
> Testing isn't required, follow the procedure.
> From everyone's experience the seeds will not sprout while completely submerged.*
> In my experience the seeds will definatey sprout if you just rinse the seed post first 24 hours.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Procedure >>> https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed


----------



## Thick n Dense

gm560 said:


> Belgianbillie said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> 
> In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.
> 
> I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.
> 
> I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.
> 
> If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.
> 
> Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> how do you sow with the wet seed?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mix it with something dry. I have seen milo (they even have directions on the website, https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed), peat moss, etc.
Click to expand...

Procedure


----------



## steffen707

Thick n Dense said:


> Procedure >>> https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed


Well there you go. I wonder why YT and others are saying to only rinse the water after 24 hours, and not continue to keep it submerged? UGH!

I'll do it the Milwaukee way next time.


----------



## Thick n Dense

steffen707 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Procedure >>> https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed
> 
> 
> 
> Well there you go. I wonder why YT and others are saying to only rinse the water after 24 hours, and not continue to keep it submerged? UGH!
> 
> I'll do it the Milwaukee way next time.
Click to expand...

What you get for listening to a tool.


----------



## steffen707

Thick n Dense said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> Procedure >>> https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed
> 
> 
> 
> Well there you go. I wonder why YT and others are saying to only rinse the water after 24 hours, and not continue to keep it submerged? UGH!
> 
> I'll do it the Milwaukee way next time.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What you get for listening to a tool.
Click to expand...

....... Fair enough.


----------



## Thick n Dense

steffen707 said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well there you go. I wonder why YT and others are saying to only rinse the water after 24 hours, and not continue to keep it submerged? UGH!
> 
> I'll do it the Milwaukee way next time.
> 
> 
> 
> What you get for listening to a tool.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ....... Fair enough.
Click to expand...

I couldnt resist


----------



## Kiza

Thick n Dense said:


> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> *Wrong > age of seed doesn't affect germination time.
> Germination time is coded in the plants DNA.
> If the seed is too old it simply wont germinate.
> *
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> *Wrong > Oxygen is required to sprout.... we don't want the seed to sprout.
> There's a priming period where the seed needs to be most and wet and warm during X amount of days.
> 5 days completely submerged primes the seeds. Perhaps more perhaps less we haven't found the optimal time.*
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> *Define "Germinate significantly better" What does this mean ?
> The seed germinates or it doesn't.
> This point is actually moot to the topic and is a renovation topic.*
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> *Moot to the topic again.
> For the record last year I had seed down around Halloween and it came out fine.
> I actually prefer waiting longer in the season because it's easier to keep the seed moist.*
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> *Moot Point but I agree. Short but frequent waterings *
> 
> "6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn."
> *This is what this thread is for so you don't need to test.
> Follow the procedure and it will work.*
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing
> *Yup >>> this is what happens when you don't keep the bag completely submerged. oxygen gets in and the seeds sprout.
> Testing isn't required, follow the procedure.
> From everyone's experience the seeds will not sprout while completely submerged.*
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
> *See above > follow the procedure yo.*





Thick n Dense said:


> What you get for listening to a tool.


Oh boy...

1. There are a bunch of studies that show this.
https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.578.4576&rep=rep1&type=pdf

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/234656862.pdf

In publications, they often refer to this as seed storage and seed vigor in reference to the fact that newer seeds have more energy/resources to germinate earlier. It's known in gardening circles, but I wasn't sure if it applied to lawn seeds, namely KBG. But I did notice my newer KBG seeds germinated faster than my 1-2 year old batch.

Also note that newer seeds tend to have higher germination rates as well. You can google that. Tho again, I haven't seen a study specifically for KBG, but seeds generally have similar internal mechanisms. Thus, I stand by the tip to use new seeds.

2. There is more than one technique to pre-germinate seeds. The video that steffen707 (technique by Colt's groundskeeper?) linked is close to what I've been doing. I think earlier there was a guy who pre-mixed it with topsoil and that's also very similar (wet seeds, introduce air). Also see https://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/stnew/article/1996jun9.pdf for some terminology and techniques. Part of the problem lies in what "soak" means. There seems to be two main camps. (1) soak means submerge underwater (no air) or (2) soak means keep wet/moist (air). The msu.edu article refers to #1 as seed priming and #2 as pre-germination. I'm doing pre-germination (air).

3. For 3, 4, 5, I don't consider these moot points. Someone was having problems with nothing germinating. There are other factors to the germinating process that he could look at and I offered some tips.

For "Germinate significantly better," I mean the rate of germination (you see more plants) will be higher. I didn't count them, but I'm sure a lot of research has been done on this because I can't be the only person that noticed that. Funny thing was I was looking at Allett mowers yesterday and came across this. Take it for what it's worth.






6. The post was for the person that literally said it isn't working. If you disagree about testing things out first, we can agree to disagree.

7. See #2


----------



## Kiza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_U8fUard5Q&ab_channel=ConnorWard

So I finally got around to testing how well humic acid spreads as a carrier for pre-germination.

TLDR = it works*

I got this idea from Conor Ward. The video doesn't actually follow through the sprouting days, so it was one clip of him spreading it, then next clip, grass.

Here are my experiences.

1. Unlike Conor, I separated it out into 1k sqft of seed + carrier sections. This can be 1 bucket or a few buckets, but the idea is that you want to put the right amount of seed down per 1k sqft or a known size area. Say, 2.5 lbs of KBG seed goes down on a known 1k sqft of ground. If it's under 1k sqft, also bucket that and calculate the amount of seed needed. This will make things much cleaner.

2. The type of granular humic acid matters. Obviously, you don't want to use powdered humic acid. Anderson's DG humic acid dissolves in water fairly quickly, so any moisture will turn into a soupy black mess. It's also expensive and the amount of humic they recommend on the ground is very low. Don't use that. I'm not sure which brand Conor used, but I used Live Earth granular humic acid from Amazon and that worked well. It doesn't dissolve readily in water. Amazon comments say maybe 2 weeks to dissolve. That's fine and the product actually looks like what Conor used.

I used a 2.5 (seed) to 15 (granular humic acid) ratio (you can play with the ratio). The thing with this type of humic acid is that you can put tons of it on the ground without any ill effects. I think the bag maxed it out at 150 lbs/1k sqft, which is a bit crazy. You don't need anywhere near that amount.

Is it better than Milo? For me, 10x better. Milo sucks because it has this horrible smell. It's like spreading diarrhea or a petri dish of Nope. Humic acid has virtually no smell and it spreads well. I used a simple manual handheld spreader. Studies show that humic acid also goes help with seed germination, but I don't know quantitatively how much help that actually is. Again, don't take my word for it. Google it. From Amazon, at the time of this writing, Humic acid is $42 for 50 lbs and Milo is $31 for 38 lbs. But you can find Milo or equivalent at any big box store for much cheaper, but the granular humic acid can be a tougher find, so one potential con is that humic might be more expensive. For me, that's peanuts, so it's a no brainer.


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## steffen707

:lol: I guess I like the smell of diarrhea.


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## Rile78

Here is another tip that I've learned with this new process, patience. Maybe because I've been staring at dirt for two summers due to a home Reno and pool install but a full KBG Reno, whether pregerminating or not requires more patience than you ever had to deal with. The same day I put out 2lb of seed that had been soaking for 5 days we had a cloudburst and received close to 3" of rain in 45 minutes. My peat moss was washed away and I was for sure my seed washed away with it. 5 days after seeding I saw little to no germination, and based on people saying they had germination in 2 or 3 days I was even more sure I needed more seed. Tonight I went out in the backyard and shined a bright led flashlight across the lawn at ground level and I literally have a million+ baby grass plants shooting out of the ground. It's a thick sea of green. I've definitely learned my lesson on this one…be patient!


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## Kiza

Gratz. Doesn't that make you feel good? Rest easy today because up next is sprout and pout. And after that, the first mow on KBG will be nerve racking, when you realize how fragile they still are.


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## Majahops

If I see sprouts on many seeds when I remove them from the pillow case, should I just trash it or throw down anyway?

Thanks so much guys!


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## steffen707

Majahops said:


> If I see sprouts on many seeds when I remove them from the pillow case, should I just trash it or throw down anyway?
> 
> Thanks so much guys!


I had a bunch of sprouts in mine, I mixed with milo and threw it down, still have pretty good germination throughout. Have a few trouble spots that I added more seed to a few weeks later, my vote is don't waste the seed, thrower down, kbg fills in.


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## Rile78

Kiza said:


> Gratz. Doesn't that make you feel good? Rest easy today because up next is sprout and pout. And after that, the first mow on KBG will be nerve racking, when you realize how fragile they still are.


Super pumped about it. I've been studying/obsessed with turf management for about 8 years, but this is my first experience with KBG. It's crazy how different this process is than TTTF or PRG. All the headache though just makes it that much more rewarding.


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## MassHole

Thick n Dense said:


> Kiza said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rile78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone not had quicker germination by using this method? I soaked KBG for 5 days, changed water every 12 hours on the dot and today is day 6 post seed down and I'm not seeing any germination. My weather and watering schedule has been on point too.
> 
> 
> 
> Here are some tips.
> 
> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> 
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> 
> 6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn.
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing.
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I disagree with a lot of this
Click to expand...

I agree with the disagreement...
2. Seed doesn't need air. The changing of the water every 12 hours is fine to ensure the water has air in it. I've done this twice already and had no issues.
3. Seed to soil contact is what matters. Top dress the area (did this last year), rake in the seed (did this last year), slit seed the mixture (did that this year)
4. Seeding window is based on location, not dates. NH and VT and IL have different time periods.
5. Watering is based on when you see the peat moss going dry, not on minutes. Every irrigation system has different flow rates and areas of coverage. Damp seed / peat moss is what matters, not minutes.
6. Testing means seeding in July. Hard pass. Don't waste your time. Follow the steps and you'll be fine.


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## MassHole

Thick n Dense said:


> 1. Get good fresh seeds. I ordered mine from Twin City in early July, then seeded them in mid-August. People say you can use old seed, and technically those will germinate, but new seed germinates a lot faster.
> *Wrong > age of seed doesn't affect germination time.
> Germination time is coded in the plants DNA.
> If the seed is too old it simply wont germinate.
> *
> 2. This is my biggest advice: Don't submerge your seeds more than 24 hrs. The first 24 hrs, I submerge the seeds underwater in a paint strainer bag. Rinse every so often, then after 24 hrs, I thoroughly drain out, then place them in a sealed container. Seeds need air. The container doesn't have to be anything fancy. It can be a grocery bag or trash bag. The seeds should be wet/moist, but air should be available. Alternatively and more costly, you can use an air pump (aquarium stores have this) to supply air to the water.
> *Wrong > Oxygen is required to sprout.... we don't want the seed to sprout.
> There's a priming period where the seed needs to be most and wet and warm during X amount of days.
> 5 days completely submerged primes the seeds. Perhaps more perhaps less we haven't found the optimal time.*
> 
> 3. When seeding, add some leaf compost (weed free) to your mix. Not sure if it's because the fine particles improve soil-to-seed contact (or compost-to-seed contact) or something in the compost itself, but seeds germinate significantly better with compost.
> *Define "Germinate significantly better" What does this mean ?
> The seed germinates or it doesn't.
> This point is actually moot to the topic and is a renovation topic.*
> 
> 4. Start early. For KY, start around mid-August. For me, August started out with 90-95 degree air temps. Surprisingly, you can still seed at those temps. But by mid-August, the air temps suddenly dropped down to 80-85 degrees. Seed then. Your waterings will cool the soil temps down. This will give you more time to figure stuff out because things won't go perfectly. If things are still too hot, you can use a seeding blanket. I think someone mentioned burlap earlier and that does work, just as long as it allows light, air, water to easily pass through and it can be secured to the ground completely flat. My shaded areas grew a lot faster than those areas that got blasted by the Sun.
> *Moot to the topic again.
> For the record last year I had seed down around Halloween and it came out fine.
> I actually prefer waiting longer in the season because it's easier to keep the seed moist.*
> 
> 5. This is what a lot of people miss: know how much to water. I was told 5-7 minutes. For me, that turned out to be way too much. I water between 2-4 minutes for each zone, 4-5x a day, depending on the weather. Watch your waterings because just using a timer can get you into trouble. You're dealing with a very small window. If you let your seeds dry out, it's bad news. But you can easily over water because weeks of constant watering multiple times a day will saturate your soil, leading to quick puddles. Puddles means no air for your seeds and little to no germination. This was a wake up call for me. I thought I had everything dialed in, but what I didn't realize is that my neighbor also waters his lawn and it overshot quite a bit into my lawn. Didn't catch it until I saw it.
> *Moot Point but I agree. Short but frequent waterings *
> 
> "6. Test, test, test. Test how this procedure works in small pots first. Don't let all the success stories fool you. A lot of people tried pre-germination and failed. They just don't post it. Test it out on a small scale inside, then work up to bigger plots outside, then your entire lawn."
> *This is what this thread is for so you don't need to test.
> Follow the procedure and it will work.*
> 
> 7. Seed before it germinates. This won't help you with germination, but I noticed that when I seeded grass that has already germinated, they grew up crooked. I think seeds know what is up and down (orientation), so I seed 24 hrs before they sprout. How do I know when they sprout? Testing
> *Yup >>> this is what happens when you don't keep the bag completely submerged. oxygen gets in and the seeds sprout.
> Testing isn't required, follow the procedure.
> From everyone's experience the seeds will not sprout while completely submerged.*
> 
> For me, I did a 24 hr submerge, used a big plastic tray lined with paper towels to hold the KBG seeds (keep seeds moist, not submerged in water) for 3 days, then seeded it on the ground with a carrier. I got a lot of germination 1.5 days after, so a total of 5-6 days from dry seed to sprouting out of the soil. I'm learning everyday about new stuff and testing, so it's not like I read a post, did the procedure, and everything worked magically. It was learning, failing, and trying again.
> *See above > follow the procedure yo.*


*
I disagree with a lot of this*
[/quote]

*
In general this post would have came across better if it was a " Hey this is my experience and outcomes" 
Instead of assuming what you did and that your assumptions are correct. *
[/quote]

This is right on! Great post @Thick n Dense


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## cokenner

Awesome thread and lots of great info. I've decided to do the completely submerged approach. I'll be overseeding into an existing lawn (1200sqft) that has had drought/heat stress and grub damage. I was hoping to simply put down Prodiamine this fall, but the damage was too widespread for my liking.

9/17 @ 9PM
Started pre germinating 3lbs of SPF30 KBG i had left over. Changing water every 12 hrs. Using a 1gal paint strainer from Ace.





While the seeds soak this week I'll be filling in some ruts from irrigation, bring HOC down to about 1", and dethatching.













Already killed off the common Bermuda with a mix of Tenacity and Triclopyr Ester.

9/21 and 22 
Apply PGR, GreenKick/SeaK to help with current good grass/damage recovery, and Tenacity.

9/23
Plan to mix the seed with Houactinite (Texas Milo) at a 5:1 ratio. Will see how the front roller on my 20" McLane does working the seed into the soil.

Still debating on peat moss. I made a DIY peat moss roller for my Reno last fall that worked great, but man it was messy.

Wish me luck!


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## g-man

cokenner said:


> Already killed off the common Bermuda with a mix of Tenacity and Triclopyr Ester.


Your common bermuda is not even close to dead. Even with round up, it will still survive. You can do straight round up on seed down day.


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## cokenner

g-man said:


> cokenner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Already killed off the common Bermuda with a mix of Tenacity and Triclopyr Ester.
> 
> 
> 
> Your common bermuda is not even close to dead. Even with round up, it will still survive. You can do straight round up on seed down day.
Click to expand...

Ok, ok. I knocked it back and will continue to. Poor choice of words on my end. You're absolutely correct. I hit this spot last august 3 times with glypho over a month, still came back..


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## CoachTooz

jacobpd said:


> In order to grow KBG plugs and test pre germination as well as to see how hard to grow KBG in summer.
> 
> I pre germinated KBG by putting the seed in water for 5days. Change water every 12 hours. Then seed them with peat moss. Air temperature is 80+, after 3 days. Seedlings come up.
> 
> I will keep a close eye and watering that area to see whether those seedlings can survive the summer heat. Too much work for large area. But a small area may be ok.
> 
> If this method works, then i can get rid of poa T And replace them with KBG in the summer time.
> 
> Bottom line is pre germination definitely works in the coming fall.


Do you think I can get away with pregerminating for 7 or 8 days? My topsoil delivery just got postponed.


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## JessieSlimer

Do you think pregerminating KBG and overseeding into a mostly perennial ryegrass lawn will increase chances of the KBG lasting versus traditional KBG overseeding (not pregerminating) into the same lawn?

I know there are studies showing a KBG overseed into a PRG lawn is a futile effort, but I wonder if pregerminating might increase the chances.


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## macattack

JessieSlimer said:


> I know there are studies showing a KBG overseed into a PRG lawn is a futile effort, but I wonder if pregerminating might increase the chances.


You would have to try to stunt the PRG from growing for a month or more. Else fertilizing and watering will just have the PRG quickly recover. Or scalping it to near bare would be best try. Try s small test plot first.


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