# Is humic acid the "creatine" of the bodybuilding world?



## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

I'm always skeptical about everything. I was reading up on humic acid more for applying to the lawn and I'm really doubting it's benefits versus just good cultural practices such as:

1: Mowing often enough
2. Watering when rain is not in the forecast
3. Mulching clippings and leaves to provide good organic matter to the soil
4. Ensuring your lawn is getting enough fertilizer for your type of grass
5. Using a pre-emergent herbicide to prevent weeds to thicken the grass so it can prevent weeds naturally

Humic acid is already naturally occurring in the soil.

http://extension.missouri.edu/scott/documents/Ag/Agronomy/Beware-snakeoil-fertilizers.pdf

*"Other products, including humic acids that are supposed to change soil chemistry and improve nutrient uptake are equally unimpressive. "Humic acid occurs naturally in the soil," he said. A three-year study on four crops showed "no economic response."*

It's similar to the hype around creatine. Your body naturally produces it and if you are eating a normal diet you are getting it that way too. The bodybuilder in the magazine is big and strong for every reason other than creatine. They use some "chemical help" to get big but not creatine.

If humic acid was so good and useful wouldn't all farmers be using it? Look at the link I posted above and the quoted paragraph. "A three-year study on four crops showed 'no economic response'"


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## daniel3507 (Jul 31, 2018)

Check out this post fr @RDZed on Humic acid. The difference in cores were enough to get me on board. I haven't had a chance to read the study you linked yet but I'm curious to find out what an "economic response" means.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10489


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## seiyafan (Apr 3, 2019)

I think economic response probably means crop yield, after all they need to make up the money spent on humic acid. Whereas lawn nuts like us simply get the money back from simply looking at it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Maybe. Humic acid is naturally in soil, too, I believe. People are just adding more to the surface/root zone. And trying to sell products containing it. I think part of this is legit, part of it may be a fad, and part of it is definitely a money-making thing. And at the other end, for users, there's the "I want to try this" factor.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

IMO: maybe.

I've been running test plots with various humic products all year, and visual results have been negligible. I will be doing two soil tests next year (humic treated vs. non-treated soil) to see if there is any difference in CEC.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Green said:


> Maybe. Humic acid is naturally in soil, too, I believe. People are just adding more to the surface/root zone. And trying to sell products containing it. I think part of this is legit, *part of it may be a fad, and part of it is definitely a money-making thing. *And at the other end, for users, there's the "I want to try this" factor.


I think we definitely got some of that. It's kind of the "cool" thing right now with all the N-EXT products. How ever I think VA Tech or some university did a study and they did say it seemed to help with drought and heat stress.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

daniel3507 said:


> Check out this post fr @RDZed on Humic acid. The difference in cores were enough to get me on board. I haven't had a chance to read the study you linked yet but I'm curious to find out what an "economic response" means.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=10489


"economic response" in regards to farming...in other words higher crop yield


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

adgattoni said:


> IMO: maybe.
> 
> I've been running test plots with various humic products all year, and visual results have been negligible. I will be doing two soil tests next year (humic treated vs. non-treated soil) to see if there is any difference in CEC.


I assumed as much, this is why I said it's like creatine is to the bodybuilding world. Might be some placebo effect where lawn nuts apply it and think it's doing something, but we don't isolate that as the single variable. For example, I apply it with SLS soap. I think the soap is the only thing that really does anything for the soil.

Iron
soap
Fertilizer

aside from those things I'm very skeptical of anything other product doing anything meaningful. (adjusting pH is a different story we know that works and we can measure the results with a soil test, also it's just basic chemistry)


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

ksturfguy said:


> VA Tech


They've been about the only one though. It'd be ideal to get a broader consensus.


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## UFG8RMIKE (Apr 21, 2019)

The science behind it should be of benefit before/after a leveling project w sand.

.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

seiyafan said:


> I think economic response probably means crop yield, after all they need to make up the money spent on humic acid. Whereas lawn nuts like us simply get the money back from simply looking at it.


 :lol: :thumbup:


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Creatine is one of the most thoroughly studied supplements and it is consistently shown to increase physical endurance and cognitive ability. You'd have to eat pounds of red meat per day to maintain optimal levels.

It's not steroids, for sure, but it's not snake oil, either.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

Sinclair said:


> Creatine is one of the most thoroughly studied supplements and it is consistently shown to increase physical endurance and cognitive ability. You'd have to eat pounds of red meat per day to maintain optimal levels.
> 
> It's not steroids, for sure, but it's not snake oil, either.


I think this is the correct answer.

If you're a body builder and mainting a perfect diet, adding creatine to your routine won't yield significate results. The same can be said with your lawn. If you have great soil from years of great cultural practices, adding humic acid likely won't help. However, if you're a beginning body builder or have poor, neglected soil, adding these products will speed up the process to get to where you want to be. The science (theory) behind both are solid. You have to calculate you're own cost-benefit.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

KoopHawk said:


> Sinclair said:
> 
> 
> > Creatine is one of the most thoroughly studied supplements and it is consistently shown to increase physical endurance and cognitive ability. You'd have to eat pounds of red meat per day to maintain optimal levels.
> ...


I would agree creatine has an established scientific consensus. However, the reason it is considered snake oil by many is because the efficacy is wildly overstated by the folks selling it. You might get a couple % boost in performance from it at best, but typically any product that yields more than that gets classified a PED.

I don't think humic has anywhere near the scientific consensus that creatine does, and I think the claims may be similarly overstated. I've seen tons of posts claiming these products gave their lawn an instant pop, but I've been running a few test plots this year (with relatively high rates) and have seen no real visual response.

I have not yet done the non-visual testing (screwdriver tests, root mass inspection, soil CEC testing, etc.), so I do not have an overall conclusion yet. No offense to anyone here, but I do think the claims of instant visual results may be overstated/placebo.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

adgattoni said:


> KoopHawk said:
> 
> 
> > Sinclair said:
> ...


I'm no scientist but in my opinion the only thing that is going to give a lawn instant pop is quick release Nitrogen and possibly a little iron. Most of the humic products sold do not contain that so yes if people are claiming instant pop from it then they are either applying something else along with it or just letting their eyes fool them.

I've applied N-EXT biostim package this year and really don't see a visual difference either but I do think I'm getting slightly better drainage in a couple spots and I'd like to believe I'm increasing some drought tolerance. Hard to tell though because this summer has been much cooler and wetter then most. So my lawn looks 100 times better then last year but I think very little of that has anything to do with biostim products.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Sinclair said:


> Creatine is one of the most thoroughly studied supplements and it is consistently shown to increase physical endurance and cognitive ability. You'd have to eat pounds of red meat per day to maintain optimal levels.
> 
> It's not steroids, for sure, but it's not snake oil, either.


in iron man competitors perhaps they do not get enough from their diet or produce enough naturally, for the avg person you don't need it. Even the avg person who lifts weights doesn't need it. If a guy is using steroids and doing insane amounts of heavy lifting it's possible it might help.

Even for iron man competitors or marathon competitors it might only be useful the day before the event. Read the studies more carefully, you'll see creatine supplementation is pretty much useless and probably the least important factor in gaining muscle mass and strength. On a list in of order of importance for gaining mass and strength creatine probably isn't even on the list or at the bottom.

1. Genetics
2. Training
3. Diet
4. .......
1,000,000. Creatine

Something like that. *These garbage bodybuilding supplements just don't work. If they did they'd be banned in use in competition for athletes. * The ones that actually work are banned from competition by the way.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12701815

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3407788/


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

I'm stepping out of this discussion now.


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

Sinclair said:


> I'm stepping out of this discussion now.


But... I just dropped 50 lbs of Creatine on my lawn!


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## smurg (May 30, 2018)

Staying with your bodybuilding analogy, I believe humic acid is more akin to human growth hormone. You produce some naturally, but supplementing with synthetics will give you long-term gains. They're not instant, but take a while to turn around soil/body composition.


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## Deke (Jun 10, 2019)

Now I'm confused! Where does protein come into this situation?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I have always said NPK+Micronutrients+ then various supplements. Steroids, GH, or even creatine do not do much for the human body in absence of sufficient calories and protein. NPK+Micronutrients is your calories and protein. Problem is that a lot of the supplements have been sold as replacements for sufficient levels of NPK and Micronutrients. They have also been sold as cures for fundamental problems with the soil chemistry. Humic and organic matter in soil will not correct extremes in pH, yet they are often sold as remedies for that.


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## seiyafan (Apr 3, 2019)

protein is similar to nitrogen and other minerals.


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## LEE (Jun 12, 2019)

"Muscle growth", in this forum, is easy. Just add more nitrogen and BOOM. But if overall heath is the goal, I'm leaning more towards topdressing with compost once or twice a year. I think this will do WAY more than any humic acid, fulvic acid, micro, silica, yucca, amino acid, B vitamin, etc. supplement could ever do (although good compost will contain most of these nutrients). Much like our guts, if the gut is healthy and fed with good, diverse food sources, we will be healthy. 
I'll be dethatching, and topdressing my lawn with compost this weekend to test it out for myself.


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## WCtotheB (Apr 20, 2021)

Creatine on the lawn seems to produce similar results of steroids for grass. It seems it is not cost-effective to apply or implement in one's lawn care. There are studies showing notable creatine effects on plants. The way I learned this is I poured creatine in the lawn in a circle because I found it to not dissolve well in water for me to consume, so I bought better quality creatine for me to consume and just thought randomly to "see if the poorly dissolving creatine had an effect on the lawn; well I have a permanent emerald green ring in my yard where the grass continues to grow the fastest and darkest over the rest of the yard, despite various fert apps and cheated iron as well as FAS. I wonder if one would benefit from adding some creatine to some sprays at a low enough rate to be cost-effective and provide benefit. Random thoughts here and not all that coherent.


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## tneicna (May 6, 2019)

Biochemist here.

There are countless studies showing Humic Acid applications (Or organic byproducts, like Seaweed/Kelp) increase root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, visual quality, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, etc on various turfgrass species.

Please see;

Pope, J.; Eichenberg, R.; Birthisel, T. Use of humate dispersible granule technology as a soil amendment in turfgrass and horticultural soils. Appl. Turfgrass Sci. 2013, 10, 38. 
Canellas, L.; Olivares, F.; Aguiar, N.; Jones, D.; Nebioso, A.; Mazzei, P.; Piccolo, A. Humic and fulvic acids as biostimulants in horticulture. Sci. Hortic. 2015, 196, 15-27. 
Nardi, S.; Pizzeghello, D.; Muscolo, A.; Vianello, A. Physiological effects of humic substances on higher plants. Soil Biol. Biochem. 2002, 34, 1527-1536. 
Trevisan, S.; Francioso, O.; Quaggiotti, S.; Nardi, S. Humic substances biological activity at the plant-soil interface. Plant Signal. Behav. 2010, 5, 635-643. 
Dorer, S.; Peacock, C. The effects of humate and organic fertilizer on establishment and nutrition of creeping bent putting greens. Int. Turfgrass Soc. Res. J. 1997, 7, 437-443. 
Liu, C.; Cooper, R.; Bowman, D. Humic acid application affects photosynthesis, root development, and nutrient content of creeping bentgrass. HortScience 1998, 33, 1023-1025. 
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Hormone-containing products' impact on antioxidant status of tall fescue and creeping bentgrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 2000, 40, 1344-1349. 
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Physiological effects of liquid applications of a seaweed extract and a humic acid on creeping bentgrass. J. Am. Soc. Hort. Sci. 2003, 128, 492-496. 
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R.; Ervin, E.; Doak, S. Creeping bentgrass physiological responses to natural plant growth regulators and iron under two regimes. HortScience 2002, 37, 898-902. 
Hunter, A.; Anders, A. The influence of humic acid on turfgrass growth and development of creeping bentgrass. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Manag. Sci. Sports Fields 2003, 661, 257-264. 
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E. Cytokinin-containing seaweed and humic acid extracts associated with creeping bentgrass leaf cytokinins and drought resistance. Crop Sci. 2004, 44, 1737-1745. 
Van ****, A.; Johnson, P.; Grossl, P. Influence of humic acid on water retention and nutrient acquisition in simulated golf putting greens. Soil Use Manag. 2009, 25, 255-261. 
Gao, Y.; Li, D. Foliar fertilization by tank-mixing with organic amendment on creeping bentgrass. HortTechnology 2012, 22, 157-163. 
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Seaweed extract, humic acid, and propiconazole improve tall fescue sod heat tolerance and posttransplant quality. HortScience 2003, 38, 440-443. 
Zhang, X.; Schmidt, R. Antioxidant response to hormone-containing product in Kentucky bluegrass subjected to drought. Crop Sci. 1999, 39, 545-551. 
Zhang, X.; Ervin, E.; Schmidt, R. Plant growth regulators can enhance the recovery of Kentucky bluegrass sod from heat injury. Crop Sci. 2003, 43, 952-956. 
Ervin, E.; Roberts, J. Improving root development with foliar humic acid applications during Kentucky bluegrass sod establishment on sand. Int. Conf. Turfgrass Sci. Manag. Sports Fields 2007, 783, 317-322. 
Zhu, H.; Li, D. Using humus on golf course fairways to alleviate soil salinity problems. HortTechnology 2018, 28, 284-288. 
Lindsey, A.; Thoms, A.; Christians, N. Kentucky bluegrass and bermudagrass rooting response to humic fertilizers during greenhouse establishment. Agron. J. 2020, 112, 3396-3401. 
Nikbakht, A.; Pessarakli, M.; Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M. Perennial ryegrass growth responses to mycorrhizal infection and humic acid treatments. Agron. J. 2014, 106, 585-595. 
Daneshvar-Hakimi-Maibodi, N.; Kafi, M.; Nikbakht, A.; Rejali, F. Effect of foliar applications of humic acid on growth, visual quality, nutrients content and root parameters of perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.). J. Plant Nutr. 2015, 38, 224-236.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Non-biochemist here. Just a lowly chemical engineer. I ran humic every month last year. Initially i thought I saw improvement to the turf and was really excited. Definitely saw an increase in earthworms and mushrooms. (non-Psychedelic). However, the grass was still very disease prone come autumn. But I did see that areas of my yard that were hard clay became much easier to dig in, and the areas that were very sandy kind of bound together.

My layman's understanding is that soil is dirt plus biological activity.

Overall, I would say my observations lined up with GreenDoc's explanation - where the soil in my yard was really just dirt, the humic seemed to make a difference. Where the dirt in my yard was already pretty good soil, I got a lot of mushrooms.


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

I haven't put humic on my lawn, so I don't have any input on that. All the research I've seen on creatine supplementation is agreed and there's pretty much consensus that creatine provides improvement and most people would benefit from creatine supplements.

So, is the following statement true or false?
Humic = scientifically researched and consensus agrees most people, lawns in this case, will benefit from supplementing?


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## HungrySoutherner (May 29, 2018)

Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.


tneicna said:


> Biochemist here.
> 
> There are countless studies showing Humic Acid applications (Or organic byproducts, like Seaweed/Kelp) increase root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, visual quality, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, etc on various turfgrass species.
> 
> ...


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

HungrySoutherner said:


> Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.


So based on this, I'm going to take your word and say the tests on Humic are inconclusive, and there isn't broad consensus on if it helps or at what dose or how to use it. Which then tells me that Humic isn't the creatine of bodybuilding.


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## johnklein25 (Apr 22, 2021)

This is an interesting thread for sure. I'm a sucker for analogies, so I had to read this one. My soil is pretty awful in several places and needs all the help it can get. I think the fert products that contain Humic AND Nitrogen are probably worth the $$$. Humic only doesn't seem to do much good. I am seeing evidence that granular hydretain is helping.... this is probably a far better supplement than just Humic, or liquid aeration in my opinion. I did a lot of reading about Hydretain, but no mention anywhere of the granular version smelling like success, it nearly knocked me out when I opened the bag! That stuff makes Milorganite seem mild!


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## sheepfescue (Jul 29, 2019)

To play the analogy game...

So, the traditional theory/methodology with creatine (and the traditional form was creatine monohydrate, and i think this remains the "most tested" form) was all about loading up with supplemental creatine at a level much greater than that which could be gained from food (most meats contain creatine, as well as some odd vegetables). Much like some other performance-enhancing substances, it's all about amounts.

Creatine acts as a phosphate buffer in your muscle cells, and allows ATP to be regenerated from ADP under anaerobic conditions when glycolytic processes run out of fuel (ATP is required for all things biological, including powering contraction of muscle filaments; basically, conversion of ATP to ADP creates energy)... which is to say, what more creatine in your muscles would do is allow for you to crank out a few more reps during weight lifting. In reality, muscles are never completely under anaerobic or aerobic metabolism (setting unusual and dangerous extremes aside), so supplemental creatine does also have some benefits for any type of exercise, though for aerobic exercise it is comparatively negligible... and creatine is not just in your muscle cells (another poster mentioned it may have shown other benefits).

Back to lawncare...

So, with this thread's analogy, perhaps.... does EXTRA humic acid in the soil serve a beneficial or performance enhancing role in some way?

Maybe if the color of your soil is not dark brown, it is relatively deficient in humic acid? Apparently (I read somewhere once) that humic acid (and related substances) are what make soils that dark brown color.

And a stupid comment: plants need phosphate for the same reason humans need phosphate. i wonder if creatine ethyl ester applied foliarly could help plants retain more phosphate... and, I wonder if granular creatine would make a good fertilizer because it is rich in nitrogen (it would probably be cost-prohibitive to apply granular creatine given the amount required and that substance's pricing).

Having said all that, there is definitely a culture of excess that spills over into lawn care (and exists in every consumer product space in our society)... just like there are thousands of bodybuilding supplements to take, there are a plethora of lawncare products (and types of products) and if they were all used simultaneously then your lawn would probably turn into a hazardous waste exclusion zone.


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## tneicna (May 6, 2019)

HungrySoutherner said:


> Rocket scientist here. I think you should consider reading through these studies and examining the results. They all are basically inconclusive. The conditions for which the impact humic amendments or things like sea kelp are so constrained relative to everything else if you read into the conclusions you will quickly start to realize that just trying to figure out how to apply at the correct dose is complicated. Plus the results are so confounded by the noise in the data relative to the conditions that need to exist to actual replicate those results the likelihood a homeowner is going to be in that condition is almost null and void compared to the basics of water, sun light, correct NPK and Ph correction and other cultural practices. In the grand scheme of things its just not valuable. They've only returned in vogue with liquids and granular products as marketing gimmicks. It won't hurt to apply them but the original post is right, based on the cost vs any "potential" results its just money down the drain.


I have - there are RCTs, field observations, etc.

Even Lindsey et al (2021) noted the following;

"Earlier research has explored the benefits of humic substances on turfgrass. Applications of humic products on creeping bentgrass (Agrostis stolonifera L.) increased root dehydrogenase activity, root growth and weight, physiological health, antioxidant concentrations, turf quality, germination rate, and percent cover [31,32,33,34,35,36,37,38,39]. Humic substances improved antioxidant concentrations, recovery or tolerance to heat injury, transplant quality, and root weight of tall fescue [Schedonorus arundinaceus (Schreb.) Dumort.; syn. Festuca arundinacea Scherb.] [33,40]. Kentucky bluegrass heat injury recovery or tolerance, root mass, root strength, root growth and turf quality was enhanced by application of humic substances [41,42,43,44,45]. Humic substances applied to perennial ryegrass (Lolium perenne L.) improved root length and surface area, root architecture, and visual quality [46,47]. The numerous benefits of humic substances on turfgrass suggest that improved stress tolerance could be possible."

There's a few studies showing Humic acid (and byproducts) downregulate antioxidant defence in turfgrasses like KBG etc (SOD2, GSH) making them more heat tolerant and others.

Sure, it can be argued that the application rate has a lot to do with the effects, and be more specific to certain products.


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

"Is humic acid the "pre-workout drink" of the body building world?" is a better question


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I mixed 200mg of testosterone into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 1000mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
I mixed 200 mg of test + 1000 mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft

I'll post results next week as to which 1000 sq ft looks best


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## doverosx (Aug 7, 2019)

john5246 said:


> I'm always skeptical about everything. I was reading up on humic acid more for applying to the lawn and I'm really doubting it's benefits versus just good cultural practices such as:
> 
> 1: Mowing often enough
> 2. Watering when rain is not in the forecast
> ...


There is no hype over creatine, the science is done; creatine monohydrate is performance enhancing.


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## DeepC (Aug 12, 2020)

SCGrassMan said:


> I mixed 200mg of testosterone into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
> I mixed 1000mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
> I mixed 200 mg of test + 1000 mg of creatine into a gallon of water and did 1000 sq ft
> 
> I'll post results next week as to which 1000 sq ft looks best


Did you ever end up doing this, or was that a joke?


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