# Reel grinding 101?



## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Hi guys. I am wanting to setup a dyi reel and bedknife sharpener. I found an old post from a member, but it looks like he's not active. Looking for tips, advise and dont do's. Any help is appreciated. I'd like to set this up as I do not have a trailer and I am not able to get this big reel mower to a shop.

Thank you for your time.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm not aware of any successful DIY reel grinding rigs. The process demands a level of precision not normally achieved with ad-hoc methods.

If you are 100% on wanting to do it yourself, best bet is to buy a used grinding setup and learn to use it. (Buying/renting a trailer is cheaper!) If you just want to face the bedknife, there are handheld tools for that, as simple as a regular mill file or for something a little faster, a converted angle grinder.

You can backlap the reel regularly to help maintain the cutting edges. That's something you can certainly DIY, as you only need to figure out how to adapt a motor to turn the reel in reverse. It can be as simple as using a cordless drill, socket adapter, socket, and the appropriate size bolt, or you can build/buy a dedicated machine to spin the reel. The latter is usually cost prohibitive to maintain just one mower.

It's not uncommon for some smaller golf courses to maintain their reels via a travelling service. If you ask around, I bet you could get a name or two, and maybe have your machine done when they are in the area.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Good deal. For some reason I was under the impression the reel had to be on the machine for grinding. Can the reel grind be done with the reel off the mower? I need to measure the current 11in. reel and see how much life is left. If backlapping is all I can do then I am fine with that. Most golf courses are a approx 30 miles or so from home. I could call around, but I feel FTF would produce a long term shop.

So is there a certain angle the relif cut needs to be? 
Thanks.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Every mower is going to have different relief angles and primary angles, so you would need a service manual or I'm sure someone has posted it up in the company specific thread(s) here on TLF. I think some people get too caught up in the whole grinding the reel thing and as a homeowner it's something that you should rarely ever need to do. As long as you have a good relief on your blades all you really need is a good backlap and at worst a new bedknife will usually get you cutting paper razor sharp again.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Good deal. Well I'll stay on the search for a different reel and bedknife that I can use to cut high. Who sells reels and bedknifes for the jd 180?



Mightyquinn said:


> Every mower is going to have different relief angles and primary angles, so you would need a service manual or I'm sure someone has posted it up in the company specific thread(s) here on TLF. I think some people get too caught up in the whole grinding the reel thing and as a homeowner it's something that you should rarely ever need to do. As long as you have a good relief on your blades all you really need is a good backlap and at worst a new bedknife will usually get you cutting paper razor sharp again.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Good deal. Well I'll stay on the search for a different reel and bedknife that I can use to cut high. Who sells reels and bedknifes for the jd 180?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


https://www.green-parts-direct.com/john-deere-parts-diagrams/john-deere-180c-greens-mower-pc9597-2007-model-m0180ca010001-010411-180c-greens-mower-pc9597-2008-model-m0180ca010412-020000-180c-greens-mower-pc9597-2009-model-m0180ca020001-030000-180c-greens-mower-pc9597-2010-model-m0180ca030001-180c-greens-mower-pc9597-reel-bed-knife-frame-and-reel/AD-4275-499-493279


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

This was one of the sites I searched. There is no info on the reel and bedknife, so I assume it to be standard 11 blade and lowcut knife. I reached out to R&R as I thought that is where I saw them previously. Waiting to hear back from them at the moment.



FATC1TY said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > Good deal. Well I'll stay on the search for a different reel and bedknife that I can use to cut high. Who sells reels and bedknifes for the jd 180?
> ...


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Got board, so I went out on a limb with my mech inclined mind lol. Used a grinder to sharpen the edge of the bedknife. Got it straight and sharp. Just a couple passes with the grinder and 80 grit flap disc following the angle of the knife. Then backlapped minus the compound. It now cuts paper razor sharp evenly across unlike when I got it. I figured what the hay I am going to get a new knife and reel at some point. Figured I'd practice on this set to see what I can do at home. Worked out great. Meanwhile I'll be on the hunt for a high cut knife and reel with less blades.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDDQc0vIz_Q&t=2s


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Yep one of those is on my list. Looks like a must have to keep things sharp. I have seen a few versions of them online.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Yep one of those is on my list. Looks like a must have to keep things sharp. I have seen a few versions of them online.


FWIW...Used ones show up on Ebay for less than $100 every so often. I picked up a Neary 290 bedknife face grinder for $100 in 2020. It's basically the same unit as what R&R Products sells.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

That's good as I am in no rush. I'll keep an eye out on ebay for one.



TulsaFan said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > Yep one of those is on my list. Looks like a must have to keep things sharp. I have seen a few versions of them online.
> ...


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

TulsaFan said:


>


I purchased one of these a few years ago (just the head not the grinder part) and it is nice to have as it makes quick work at sharpening a bedknife especially after a sand leveling project. Doesn't take much to get the mower back to razor sharpness again.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Good deal man I'm all for making quick work of things.

I have a 260 bedknife. I will see if the screw holes line up with the 180. If so I'll just buy one and cut the blade to fit the 180c.

I imagine the holes will line up and JD just used a longer knife.

Here's to hoping they line up. If I am correct about the spacing of the screw holes next up will be a new reel. If I can not find a reel with less blades I will see if I can find the 14 blade reel and cut/ grind out 7 blades on it.

Things will work out. So far I am $190 in on this project.



Mightyquinn said:


> TulsaFan said:
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> >
> ...


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Good deal man I'm all for making quick work of things.
> 
> I have a 260 bedknife. I will see if the screw holes line up with the 180. If so I'll just buy one and cut the blade to fit the 180c.
> 
> ...


It's your mower and you can do what you want but I would HIGHLY discourage you from trying to cut a bedknife to fit and removing reel blades to get the count that you want. You will have a hell of a time trying to balance the reel afterwards. Good luck and God speed if you decide to go that route.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Good deal man I'm all for making quick work of things.
> 
> I have a 260 bedknife. I will see if the screw holes line up with the 180. If so I'll just buy one and cut the blade to fit the 180c.
> 
> ...


Do you have a 180A, 180B, 180C, 180SL, or 180E mower?


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

How will cutting the blade make the reel unbalanced?*** never mind I read your post again. Well I'll never know until I try. If there were other options id give them a shot.

I plan to leave an extra inch or so on both sides. 
Heres what I got from R&R:

I would suggest the RET17532 bed knife. It is the same thickness as the RMT6946, but 22" instead of 26". The holes will line up, but they are hardened, so it will be difficult to cut.



Mightyquinn said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > Good deal man I'm all for making quick work of things.
> ...


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I have a 180c



TulsaFan said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > Good deal man I'm all for making quick work of things.
> ...


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## Herring (Sep 19, 2020)

I would call Revels Turf and Tractor. Ask about Coretask reels for the 180c. They're a little cheaper than the John Deere reels and what I used when replacing on a 220b. After replacing it still took a good deal of backlapping before it cut paper cleanly. I don't think these reels come with a relief cut, hopefully someone could say from the picture?



The bedknife should be fairly cheap to start and see if it will cut paper after backlapping, get new bedknife screws when ordering.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Thanks!!! How did you pull that chart up? I can't see it clearly. I will contact them here in a few.



Herring said:


> I would call Revels Turf and Tractor. Ask about Coretask reels for the 180c. They're a little cheaper than the John Deere reels and what I used when replacing on a 220b. After replacing it still took a good deal of backlapping before it cut paper cleanly. I don't think these reels come with a relief cut, hopefully someone could say from the picture?
> 
> 
> 
> The bedknife should be fairly cheap to start and see if it will cut paper after backlapping, get new bedknife screws when ordering.


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## Herring (Sep 19, 2020)

GreenLand said:


> Thanks!!! How did you pull that chart up? I can't see it clearly. I will contact them here in a few.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I found it listed here. I don't know if a lower reel blade option is available for the 180c. The 220 has the 9 blade option and E-Cut I think goes down to 7. 
http://www.gaturftech.com/service-manual


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Those reels are balanced at the factory and when you start loping blades off it's going to cause it to be unbalanced and you could wear your bearings out faster and affect the quality of the cut too. Why not just buy the right parts for the job and be done with it?


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I understand. If I can find the correct parts I need I'll put them on the list. As of yet looks like I can only " hopefully" find the bedknife. If I can't source the parts I'll make them out of something that I can find. 😁🤔



Mightyquinn said:


> Those reels are balanced at the factory and when you start loping blades off it's going to cause it to be unbalanced and you could wear your bearings out faster and affect the quality of the cut too. Why not just buy the right parts for the job and be done with it?


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Mightyquinn said:


> Every mower is going to have different relief angles and primary angles, so you would need a service manual or I'm sure someone has posted it up in the company specific thread(s) here on TLF. I think some people get too caught up in the whole grinding the reel thing and as a homeowner it's something that you should rarely ever need to do. As long as you have a good relief on your blades all you really need is a good backlap and at worst a new bedknife will usually get you cutting paper razor sharp again.


We wouldn't be grinding our reels so much if we all had those Samurai sword blades on our reels like you Baroness folk. :lol:

I think it's got a lot to do with how much mowing you do with any given machine and the conditions that unit is exposed to. I mow 20k, grind at least every other season. I wrecked a reel early on, and beat up my current reel after a leveling/top-dressing project which forced my last grind in May of 2020. I'd like to grind post-scalp this year as I'm pretty much out of relief with a thick (.250") blade reel and getting it to cut well without moderate contact is becoming a challenge. A thinner reel blade and I could probably survive on back-lapping a bit longer.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Agreed. I just contacted revels and no luck there. Hopefully what I need is available somewhere. If not it'll be fab time&#128513;. I'm sure I can balance a reel decent enough if its anything like balancing tires.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Agreed. I just contacted revels and no luck there. Hopefully what I need is available somewhere. If not it'll be fab time😁. I'm sure I can balance a reel decent enough if its anything like balancing tires.


I don't think a 7-blade is available for the Deere 180. It would be wonderful convincing R&R to produce 7 blade options for the Deere 220A/B/C/SL models along with the Jacobsen GK522. Both machines are readily available on the used market and popular with homeowners who are unlikely to need/want cut heights below .250" If we could convince them to do it for the more popular 22" machines, then perhaps offerings for the 18" models are a possibility.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I agree. That would be great if they would start making parts. I wonder what they would need for motivation. Maybe a thread like the JD question thread showing how many would buy parts could help. Idk.



MasterMech said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. I just contacted revels and no luck there. Hopefully what I need is available somewhere. If not it'll be fab time😁. I'm sure I can balance a reel decent enough if its anything like balancing tires.
> ...


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Well I got word back from R&R. They will not be making any other parts for the 180. I will start with the fairway knife and see where that gets me. I'll make this work and post as I go. Any other advise or parts location is appreciated.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Why are you set on fabricating your own reel and whatnot ?

For the HOC limitation, the 11 blade reels out there will suffice.

You aren't going to be cutting high like a rotary, you won't be getting a good quality cut by making the mower cut that high with modifications, and certainly won't be getting a quality of cut by making your own Frankenstein mower.

It seems like you will be drifting further and further away from the whole point of the mower. Come growing season, you won't want to continue to tinker, you'll want to mow. Buy a mower appropriate for what you want to cut, and use the appropriate stuff, if anything to be safe and not have something come apart at high speeds.

But if you like fabricating stuff, have the proper tools and knowledge of the workings of the JD reels and have money and time to burn, we will be here with a drink ready to see how it goes.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

FATC1TY said:


> ...
> For the HOC limitation, the 11 blade reels out there will suffice.
> 
> ...
> ...


Ding Ding Ding!

What so many seem to forget/ignore is that greensmowers, and especially 18" greensmowers, are intended to mow _putting greens_ where the typical HoC is .100-.140". Adjusting the HoC +/- .020" has a significant effect in those conditions. When these machines were designed, and the accessories were planned, nobody was thinking "Hey, what about the guys that want to walk-mow tees/approaches with 18" units?". :lol: Promise. Let alone homeowners picking these up on the secondary market to mow home lawns at HoC of 1"+.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Well grab some popcorn and beer...😂 you just gave me the motivation I needed 🍻.

I am a hands on kinda guy. Remember I am not cutting a golf course putting green. I am a guy who really likes tinkering and making things work the way he'd like.

As I said previously I got this reel just for the cut vs a rotary. I will achieve the HoC I am after as I have figured what it will take to make it happen. The more I research the more I understand the relation of the bedknife angle and sheer point. Since I have no plan to cut off the transport axles I will use the wheels and some tires to get the rear up so I can keep the sheer point where I need it. Up front will be casters. These will allow for HoC adjustments. Basically I'm going to make this into a JD version of a mclane or the like. I may even try to remove the rear drum to help with weight and maneuvering. 
My front yard is small so Ill need to slow this thing down and learn how to run it around the turns up front. Lots to do and it'll come along as time goes.

The worst that could happen is it doesn't work out the way I want. I could sell the John Deere as it was from the factory with a better in bed knife. I could at the very least break even in my investment with this more if things did not work out. And would be happy to sell. Currently I am in a hundred and ninety bucks including the mower with this fun project. What's a little bit more money into it going to hurt?



FATC1TY said:


> Why are you set on fabricating your own reel and whatnot ?
> 
> For the HOC limitation, the 11 blade reels out there will suffice.
> 
> ...


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

@GreenLand, while you have SolidWorks fired up, we'd all like a battery-electric greensmower quality machine that can 
Operate in HoC range .250" - 4"
Tackle 35° slopes in dew
Stripe like a MoFo
Variable Ground Speed from 0-4 MPH
Fixed FoC with mowing cylinders mounted
Fixed reel speed (independent of ground speed) with other cartridges

Cartridge based or at least quick-swap floating cutting units with the following available:
15-blade Mowing Cylinder, with optional Turf Groomer
8-blade Mowing Cylinder, with optional Turf Groomer
5-blade Mowing Cylinder
Verticut Cartridge, with replaceable blades
Scarifier/Power-Rake Cartridge
Brush Cartridge
Deep Spike Aerification Cartridge
Mini-Spike Aerification Cartridge
Hollow-Tine/Core Aerification Cartridge
Vibratory Roller Cartridge

Full-Lighting package (going to be mowing at 0400 with this bad boy)
Battery Endurance of at least 20k sq ft with any cartridge
Professional Service 1x year - On-Site or pickup/delivery service (with addl Care+ plan of course)
Base machine with one mowing cartridge needs to hit a retail price point of $2,999

Let me know when the design is ready for manufacturing, we can talk distribution and marketing. :thumbup:


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I got you bud!!! Now that I know theres a market for it lol😂🤣 you will get the first prototype! Free upon a 1 paragraph review stating just how well it works! 🤣
Trust it will go for monthly installments of just $29.99



MasterMech said:


> @GreenLand, while you have SolidWorks fired up, we'd all like a battery-electric greensmower quality machine that can
> Operate in HoC range .250" - 4"
> Tackle 35° slopes in dew
> Stripe like a MoFo
> ...


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> Well grab some popcorn and beer...😂 you just gave me the motivation I needed 🍻.
> 
> I am a hands on kinda guy. Remember I am not cutting a golf course putting green. I am a guy who really likes tinkering and making things work the way he'd like.
> 
> ...


See the bold. I don't think anyone disagrees it's possible to get where you want, but you certainly won't be getting the reel quality with THAT mower. I think that's just what's being said in a round about way. The fact you are going have it on the transport wheels tells me everything I need to know.

Be motivated, you may like the cut since you have no experience with what a good cut from a reel is, perspective is everything.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Rotary vs reel. Is the cut not better with a reel? That is what I will achieve with this mower.
Unlike most I have zero interest in cutting my grass less than an inch. Honestly I think it looks cool, but just isn't my kinda thing. To say I will not get a quality cut and have never attempted what I will is well...&#129335;

In the end all I am after is grass that has not been beat like it is by rotary. Snipped like scissors is what I am after and what I will get. Maybe that is the misunderstanding. Not looking to have a golf course in my front yard. Just a better cut then my old rotary can ever cut.

This for sure isn't rocket science guys. It's just about keeping things at the right angles is all.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

So I got the tires and casters in. I picked the lowest profile tire I could find. They are like 8 inches overall in diameter. Could not find a tire shop local who would make the swap from the factory transport tires to the new, so I swapped them myself.

Many youtube vids later I got them.on. I think they look good. So far it looks like I'll be in the 1-1/2"-3" range with tire inflation to aid in lifting the rear roller. That's the key to the wide range. With the tires alone no psi starting hoc is 1in roughly. I figure I may as well run them at 20psi to keep the beed from coming out of place.

Now comes the caster mounting bracket. Originally I was going to figure a way to mount them to the green front roller bracket, but that would take a welded bracket. There are 2 holes on the front of the grass catcher bracket that I will use to fasten the casters to the mower. I may just keep it simple and find an L- bracket for the mount.

I coated the rims in a black rubberized coating to reduce the bright yellow. I think I will remove the black coating off the hub as there's not enough yellow. Needs to be touched up since putting on the new tires.

I will post as I continue to make progress.
Things are coming along nicely.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

By the time you mod that machine all up, the QOC is going to be lower than just getting a decent rotary. Your profile says you have Saint Augustine. How far are you going to jack that thing up?


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Sorry, I never changed my profile. We now have bermuda at our new home.

Im more on the positive mindset in life. Like back when folks used to say "You can do anything you put your mind to" or " You got this"
Whatever happened to that?

I got this dude. This mower will cut great for what I need. I just need to sort it all out.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Hey... more power to you if it works as you intended. People laughed when Connor Ward said he was going to mow his KBG at less than a 1/2" and it turned out awesome.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I am not sure who that is. Probably because I only look for organic lawn care folks and idk but there does not seem to be many.

I need to level a bit before I can run this out front. I am sure I wont get a rolled, striped and razer edge flat lawn and I am fine with that. The only thing I am after is not beating my grass with a rotary as I have done the past 20yrs lol.

As it sits now is the highest it will be. Little more or less air in the tires gets the cut where its desired.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> I am not sure who that is.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Why didn't you just buy a Tru-cut/McClane/Cal Trimmer? That's basically what you invented?


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Last season I found my rotary starting to smoke while running. Just so happens a bud who also uses/ used a rotary introduced me to a guy with a mclaine. I gained interest in the reel side of cutting. Figured "There's no way I am gonna spend $x.xxx" and not be able to cut in the range I want. That's why.

This thread isn't for the purest at heart. Sorry if You guys hate or think I am dumb for posting such a monstrosity of an idea like cutting over an inch with a reel mower.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

There is nothing wrong with wanting to reel cut your lawn above one inch which is what the TruCut/McClane/Trimmer mowers are designed to do.

By all means, keep doing what you are doing and enjoy, it's your equipment, time and money. I think most people here were just trying to give you some corrective criticism and maybe open your eyes to something you may not have been aware of. I will say that I'm curious how this all will turn out!


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

Mightyquinn said:


> I will say that I'm curious how this all will turn out!


+1 :thumbup:


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Well it seems to of been more of you can't and won't make it happen. I love to hear that as those comments are what motivated me to be successful where I am in life now.

Down the line If I find a mower with a honda engine that cuts in the 1"-3" range I will pick it up. Currently I have seen a high of 2-1/4". That's a little low for a high cut that I prefer.

For most here this is a hobby. For me its just cutting grass and not beating the crap out and vacuuming that fert I just put down.

This^^^ is my concern with rotary mowers. Looking at the toro; it seems to be the next best thing with a honda engine and an aftermarket support that is unparalleled to the JD greens mowers. Still I find it wont cut where I want without mods. 
So I'd still be in the same boat with modding. After seeing the reviews of failure with allet and swardsman I'll pass on those. Cal trim and mclane are out with the briggs.

I'm so done with briggs it ain't funny lol. Honda for life!😂💯



Mightyquinn said:


> There is nothing wrong with wanting to reel cut your lawn above one inch which is what the TruCut/McClane/Trimmer mowers are designed to do.
> 
> By all means, keep doing what you are doing and enjoy, it's your equipment, time and money. I think most people here were just trying to give you some corrective criticism and maybe open your eyes to something you may not have been aware of. I will say that I'm curious how this all will turn out!


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## Guest (12 mo ago)

TulsaFan said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > I will say that I'm curious how this all will turn out!
> ...


+1 :thumbup:


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

A TLF-member friend of mine bought a 26" Jacobson from a guy who had added the higher HOC brackets. I want to say he was cutting around 2 1/2" to 3" with it. I don't know if they make the same brackets for JD mowers or not but that would be a heck of a lot easier than what you are doing. I think the first order of business when he brought the mower home was get rid of those brackets.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

The aftermarket support for this mower is like non- existent. Pretty sure I cant find those brackets. I've heard of the brackets your talking about, but haven't seen them.

I am interested in what they look like and where they are installed on the mower.

With that if all they do is raise the front roller I'll pass as that alone will not work for this mower. The rear roller must be raised to allow the bedknife and reel to be at the proper angle. Thus the reason for keeping the transport wheels and adding casters. If it were any easier I'd have this done by now and test cutting dormant grass&#128513;

Was the mower your friend bough a toro flex? If so that's a different setup then I have. Better mower actually


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

It only raises the front roller. It was a Jacobson 526 Greens King and is an awesome machine.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Ok, so I checked out the 526. It looks like a spitting image of the jd lineup I have. Idk what the quality of cut looks like when using the bracket but with the little I know I would say thats the reason the mower was sold.

Then again I could be wrong. From the looking at the geometry between the reel and roller at factory settings it really seems the rear roller dictates the range of hoc then the front roller does. From my point of view the front roller makes the hoc adjustable , while the rear gets the bedknife and reel up where most want to cut there grass. Not sure if I'm saying this in a way that is understandable.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

The seller bought it for his zoysia lawn but only wanted to mow weekly or less often. Obviously that is not going to work with a reel mower even if you are able to raise the HOC so he just switched back to rotary mowing. The machine was practically brand new. The new owner mows his Palisades Zoysia with it at around .5" and it has an excellent cut quality.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Just thought about that. I remember guys saying the grass would not spring back up to its vertical position so I am sorta holding my QOC statement as that mower really is just like mine in terms of the reel and front roller placement. Idk if that leaving the front roller on mine will hinder QOC Time will tell. Once I get another tire I will see. I have to buy another tire as I poked a hole in one trying to get it on. Side note it was my first time swapping tires and I fudged it lol.

I will say speaking of geometry... for whatever reason after lifting the rear roller up it looks like the distance between the reel and front roller is greater. Idk it's likely not, but does look so.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Redtwin said:


> A TLF-member friend of mine bought a 26" Jacobson from a guy who had added the higher HOC brackets. I want to say he was cutting around 2 1/2" to 3" with it. I don't know if they make the same brackets for JD mowers or not but that would be a heck of a lot easier than what you are doing. I think the first order of business when he brought the mower home was get rid of those brackets.


He did more than just add brackets if he got to 2"+ with a 526. 1 1/4" is just about max with the tall roller brackets and running on the traction drum.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

GreenLand said:


> .... Cal trim and mclane are out with the briggs.
> 
> I'm so done with briggs it ain't funny lol. Honda for life!😂💯
> 
> ....


Cal Trimmer and McLane both sell mowers with Honda GX series engines. But all top out well before 3".



GreenLand said:


> Ok, so I checked out the 526. It looks like a spitting image of the jd lineup I have. Idk what the quality of cut looks like when using the bracket but with the little I know I would say thats the reason the mower was sold.
> 
> Then again I could be wrong. From the looking at the geometry between the reel and roller at factory settings it really seems the rear roller dictates the range of hoc then the front roller does. From my point of view the front roller makes the hoc adjustable , while the rear gets the bedknife and reel up where most want to cut there grass. Not sure if I'm saying this in a way that is understandable.


Re QoC on the 526: There's more to be done than just jacking up the front roller. The bedknife controls something called "Behind Center" and the "Reach" dimensions of the cutting geometry.

By jacking up the rear roller and tilting the whole machine forward as you have done with the Deere, you are moving the cutting plane further behind the center of the reel circumference. This allows the reel to "reach" a little deeper into the turf and gather better before shearing the grass against the bedknife. It's usually referred to as a more "aggressive" cutting geometry. By adjusting the rear roller to adjust HoC, you naturally achieve a more aggressive setting when adjusting for taller heights. Deere's QA5 (and I think the QA7 as well) cutting units do this. Jacking the whole rig up to 3"+ probably negates much of the benefit as you're working with a 5" reel and not something like an 8-9" reel which would be preferable for such heights. A 5" reel is only going to be able to reach so far beyond the knife before the cutting plane is moved too far behind center to be effective.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Ok now I see what you are thinking about the way I am going with this project. I will try to explain my process a bit better.

First when I consider lifting this mower I keep in mind the bedknife and reel placement and angle in relation to the ground.

With that. I look at lifting this mower front and rear in such that the reel and bedknife will remain in the same angles and placement they were where the mower is(within factory specs/ alignment) set to less then 1/2" >as that is where the mower cuts at its best QOC correct? Lifting the mower equally from the preferred HOC many in the industry state will give the best HOC.

Hence the reason for adding brackets and casters up front.

What I am leading to --- the rear roller alone indeed changes the bedknife and reel
Angles for the lack of better a term. Since the aforementioned is true as you have stated attempting to use the front roller is out and not just because the grass wont spring back up in time, but due to not having a bracket capable of lifting the front up enough to put the reel and bedknife back where they need be.

So this is how I plan to keep things in line and achieve the HOC range I am after.



MasterMech said:


> GreenLand said:
> 
> 
> > .... Cal trim and mclane are out with the briggs.
> ...


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

So you are going to change HOC via air pressure in your tires?


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Keep in mind you are also changing the ground speed with the wheels, thus your frequency of cut. Adding wheels will allow it to bottom out on not so level surfaces, coupled with the frequency of cut, you may have to do a lot of testing and adjustments to get it to give the intended cut.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

FATC1TY said:


> So you are going to change HOC via air pressure in your tires?


Not just the rear tire air pressure. The caster height up front as well.

If I hadn't poked a hole in one of the tires this probably would of been easier to understand as you guys would see what I see when I am lifting the mower.

If you look at your mowers bedknife and reel just imagine the mower lifted equally front and rear as it sits currently. Nothing changes except ground clearance.

Now I still plan on swapping the bedknife to the fairway or High cut knife and if need be take a shot at modding the 14 blade reel as a last attempt.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I totally agree. FOC may very well just be my next thing to tackle.

I most definitely have leveling to address and this will seem to take for ever due to my all organic fert program. Organic provides overall better plant quality, but man I really miss the fast filling/ growing turf From years prior. Seems to take forever> 2 weeks to really see small results compared to a week tops with synthetic.



FATC1TY said:


> Keep in mind you are also changing the ground speed with the wheels, thus your frequency of cut. Adding wheels will allow it to bottom out on not so level surfaces, coupled with the frequency of cut, you may have to do a lot of testing and adjustments to get it to give the intended cut.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

My whole point was that the bedknife attitude and position changes intentionally with HoC range to maintain good QoC and aftercut appearance. Also that you are going to be operating so far outside of the envelope with a 5" reel that bedknife attitude won't matter much anyways.

The higher you go, the more aggressive the plane of the mower needs to be. But you will reach a point where the cut suffers. Imagine the cutting plane at 6 o'clock on the reel circumference, mowing at .100". You don't really need the reel to reach down into the turf mowing that low. Different story at .500", 1", 2" etc... If you want the reel to reach into the turf and gather before cutting the grass, you have to move the cutting edge to where it's no longer at the lowest point of the reel circumference.

There's good reason we don't normally use 5" reels to mow 2"+ grass. Back when it was more common, it was done with big 8"+ reels, often in a towed gang. But at those heights, rotary mowers cut well (as long as they are sharp), much faster, and at far less cost, than maintaining a reel.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

MasterMech said:


> My whole point was that the bedknife attitude and position changes intentionally with HoC range to maintain good QoC and aftercut appearance. Also that you are going to be operating so far outside of the envelope with a 5" reel that bedknife attitude won't matter much anyways.
> 
> The higher you go, the more aggressive the plane of the mower needs to be. But you will reach a point where the cut suffers. Imagine the cutting plane at 6 o'clock on the reel circumference, mowing at .100". You don't really need the reel to reach down into the turf mowing that low. Different story at .500", 1", 2" etc... If you want the reel to reach into the turf and gather before cutting the grass, you have to move the cutting edge to where it's no longer at the lowest point of the reel circumference.
> 
> There's good reason we don't normally use 5" reels to mow 2"+ grass. Back when it was more common, it was done with big 8"+ reels, often in a towed gang. But at those heights, rotary mowers cut well (as long as they are sharp), much faster, and at far less cost, than maintaining a reel.


I'm afraid at the height he wants to cut, with those wheels and casters it'll just end up pushing the grass to the side or matting it down. Atleast with a rotary, there's some uplift to stand the grass up for cutting. There's not gonna be much here to manipulate the grass into the reel, or what there is, had been mitigated by the lift.

I more curious of ground speed. On the JDs, does the reel speed slow any with the motor speed? I would imagine it does, atleast some? With the larger wheels, even idled way down it's going to be pretty fast. That faster speed won't be ideal in my mind to cut well, we know that from going too fast and getting washboarding at lower heights. Usually slowing down helps fix that.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I understand completely. I will keep this in mind when rolling through my testing. I do appreciate your insite.

I plan to test this all on dormant grass for time being so by summer I will have it nailed. I happy to see what little progress I have made as of yet. Sorta pumped about how things are going this far.



MasterMech said:


> My whole point was that the bedknife attitude and position changes intentionally with HoC range to maintain good QoC and aftercut appearance. Also that you are going to be operating so far outside of the envelope with a 5" reel that bedknife attitude won't matter much anyways.
> 
> The higher you go, the more aggressive the plane of the mower needs to be. But you will reach a point where the cut suffers. Imagine the cutting plane at 6 o'clock on the reel circumference, mowing at .100". You don't really need the reel to reach down into the turf mowing that low. Different story at .500", 1", 2" etc... If you want the reel to reach into the turf and gather before cutting the grass, you have to move the cutting edge to where it's no longer at the lowest point of the reel circumference.
> 
> There's good reason we don't normally use 5" reels to mow 2"+ grass. Back when it was more common, it was done with big 8"+ reels, often in a towed gang. But at those heights, rotary mowers cut well (as long as they are sharp), much faster, and at far less cost, than maintaining a reel.


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

I thought about the tire speed while going over this project. Then there is the idea of the 14 to 7 blade mod. Not ideal in terms of balancing, but I'll just have to see when that time comes. First I will try to source different gears for the real that are smaller. Or gears for the rear. One of the two would help. I came up with ideas for issues along the way. Heres to no issues incurred in the process 🍻

In regards to speed the large tires when at idle were about the speed of a slow rotary. I imagine the current tires at about 2-1/2" less will be even more slow.



FATC1TY said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> > My whole point was that the bedknife attitude and position changes intentionally with HoC range to maintain good QoC and aftercut appearance. Also that you are going to be operating so far outside of the envelope with a 5" reel that bedknife attitude won't matter much anyways.
> ...


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## GreenLand (May 23, 2019)

Grow season has started of nicely. Currently spot leveling the yard to get ride of the ruts throughout. I should have the 180c rolling mid summer.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=27274&p=474669#p474669


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