# Front Lawn Reno Westchester, NY Fall 2020



## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Hi, I live in Westchester County, NY (zone 5). I had a contractor over in Mid-August to look at a project - dethatch, scalp, level some parts, overseed and top dress. Unfortunately he wasn't able to start back in Aug, but he wants to do the project now.

Is it too late in the season to do this? Should I wait until spring?

Thanks for the reply.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I just a quick look at a map of your area and it appears your average date of first frost is the 3rd to 4th week of October. If you are planting PRG and or TTTF, you might be okay; but it needs to happen now.

Do you have the ability to keep the area irrigated?

I wouldn't do this project in the Spring. Weather is too unpredictable. I am sure you are spending decent money with this contractor. You want it to survive the Summer. If it doesn't happen now, I would aim for the end of August in 2021.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Thanks for the reply. Yes, we have an irrigation system. Will be using a TTTF. He is starting tomorrow and should be done in a few days.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

On average for the OP, is around Thanksgiving for FF and Sometimes later...

I do know last year, our FF was a week after thanksgiving....as I was planning to plant the ornamental kale and such, and we got a early blast that one day, the annuals were bloom-busters villa, and the following, the wet stinky stench you get when the water cells in them have popped.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

If you have Tenacity, I would apply that after he is done.

Good luck with the project. Hope it turns out well.


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## mylawn (Nov 30, 2019)

I did a front renovation of PRG last September 7th (seed down) I'm also In Westchester. Worked out great and I'm sure yours will also.

*Photo
Sept 17 2019*


*Photo
Oct 5 2019*


*Photo
Nov 23 2019*


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Thanks for all of the great responses, they are here now and dethatching away.

I've seen that term tenacity a bunch here, but haven't studied it deeply. Is that some kind of Pre-E?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

jacheech said:


> Thanks for all of the great responses, they are here now and dethatching away.
> 
> I've seen that term tenacity a bunch here, but haven't studied it deeply. Is that some kind of Pre-E?


It is a very specialty herbicide. Mostly a post em, but with some pre em properties that make it especially useful when seeding. It will kill / prevent many, not all, weeds and can be applied the same time as seed down since it will not impact most desirable turf grasses. Do not use any other pre em products.

https://www.domyown.com/tenacity-herbicide-p-1877.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIotmj_bLw6wIVqwiICR1YPQ3BEAAYASAAEgKVNPD_BwE


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

jay, if you do not apply tenacity of day of seeding or 1 day afterwards....IMO skip it until 30-45 days out. Heck, if you profile is correct and it's rye/fescue - that stuff should germinate quick and decent enough. If you apply tenacity when it's just germinated on a new blade, IME, that stuff stunts the grass. It may outgrow the stunt, it may stall it so hold off IMO until the 2nd mow or the like


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

^+1

Label states 30 days post germination or 2 mows, whichever is later.

Also, it will bleach your good grass white as well as the weeds. This is normal. Your grass will grow out of it.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

I kinda wanna say 45 if not 60 days....IME, it bleached, stunted and kept my KBG stunted for quite some time....versus different area, no tenacity sprayed, the same seed germinated and became a mature blade at least 2X-3X earlier....

I felt like either I killed it because it just stayed - stunted- for quite some time. YMMV though


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Thanks again. I just ordered the 8oz tenacity, surfactant, and laser blue. Will play it by ear on application - most likely use as a post E, and apply after 2nd or third mow, depending on weather and germination time. Might also hang on to it until spring.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Yes it will stunt KBG, but I don't think the OP is seeding with it. Not sure if it will stunt TTTF to the same degree.

You may or may not need Tenacity in 30 to 40 days. When frost comes, it will kill any weeds you have. Applying it in 60 days takes you into November, at which point you are even more unlikely to need Tenacity for post emergent reasons. It will be cold by then and weeds will check out.

But I again, I defer to members in that region. Much of NY state gets worse winters than much of Southern Ontario; I assume it gets colder around the same time as where I am just outside of Toronto. I always stand to be corrected on local climate!


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Correct, won't be using KBG. Thanks, tend to agree that weather should handle the weeds for the balance of the season, but I'm glad I'll have it in hand just in case. Worst case I'll have it as a PreE next spring and will hang onto the surfactant for future use.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

jacheech said:


> Correct, won't be using KBG. Thanks, tend to agree that weather should handle the weeds for the balance of the season, but I'm glad I'll have it in hand just in case. Worst case I'll have it as a PreE next spring and will hang onto the surfactant for future use.


Tenacity only offer 30 days of pre-emergent activity. You will want something like Prodiamine or Dimension for longer lasting pre-em.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Got it. Lots to learn! Contractor picked up Lesco seed, was wrong on the no *** comment. Here's a pic 32/32/32 PRG TTF ***


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's not TTTF. That's creeping red fescue. It does ok in the shade, but turns brown in the sun/summer. It won't matter how much you water it.


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Have him go back to site one and get a bag of 3way tall fescue and their premium rye mix amd do 50 50 of that. That bag is no good for what your doing amd the money your spending.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Wow glad I checked in. The area has a lot of Mature trees and is definitely sun and shade.

Think I should still switch?


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## sheepfescue (Jul 29, 2019)

Hello,

I'd have to agree that the seed the contractor bought is not such a great grass seed; honestly it's not any better than budget seed at Wal-Mart. "Other Crop Seed" is 0.33%. Other crops could be ground ivy, poison ivy, purslane, nightshade, apples, bananas, or tomatoes.... there are weed-free seeds available from stores like seedsuperstore.com, preferredseed.com, unitedseeds.com, GCI turf, and other places as well.

You also have to be careful with seed coming from Oregon and Washington (and Canada) with "other crop," as you could theoretically get Cannabis Sativa seeds (marijuana plant), and that would be illegal in most US states.

Have your contractor apply the Tenacity before he seeds, or hold onto it until next spring; it will not accomplish much of anything applied 30 days from now, and will make your lawn look like a lawn from a dystopian intergalactic sci-fi film, though it could be great to make your property look scary for the trick-or-treaters at Halloween.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Thanks - you folks are a life-saver. We are making the change to the 3way tall fescue and their premium rye mix, as advised. I'm very happy I made that last post and grateful for the sage advice here!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

sheepfescue said:


> You also have to be careful with seed coming from Oregon and Washington (and Canada) with "other crop," as you could theoretically get Cannabis Sativa seeds (marijuana plant), and that would be illegal in most US states.


Can you point to an article or some source to this? The size of a marijuana seed is large, like a coffee bean. Do you really think the grow grass in the same field they grow pot that the seeds can mix?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

sheepfescue said:


> I'd have to agree that the seed the contractor bought is not such a great grass seed; honestly it's not any better than budget seed at Wal-Mart. "Other Crop Seed" is 0.33%. Other crops could be ground ivy, poison ivy, purslane, nightshade, apples, bananas, or tomatoes....


Yes, theoretically, "other crop" could be those things, but most of those aren't much of a threat to being in a grass seed mix, as they aren't typically grown in fields with grass raised for seed, or processed on the same equipment.

For me, the big "other crop" threat in a bag of new KBG seed is _Poa trivialis_ -- a similar size to the KBG seeds and a "crop" that the grass seed farmers struggle with keeping out of their fields, too.


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## kk07 (Sep 2, 2020)

I called tenacity support and they told me that you shouldn't apply it at seed down if your grass mix contain more than 20% fine fescue. They said there is a chance that tenacity will inhibit those FF seeds from germinating. The creeping red fescue is one type of fine fescue. So if u r using that lesco sun and shade mix, I would suggest you don't apply tenacity at seed down and wait for 4 weeks AND 2 mows (that's what the support told me).


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Here's some pics:


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

So now that the seed is down would someone please suggest some irrigation rates for me? I have the Rachio so I can easily set up a germination schedule. Thank you!


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## jperm47 (Jul 29, 2020)

jacheech said:


> So now that the seed is down would someone please suggest some irrigation rates for me? I have the Rachio so I can easily set up a germination schedule. Thank you!


First week going to want to do 10 min per zone 3x a day and then start to slowly back it off as it germinates. Basically want to always keep the top 1-2 inches of soil moist


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Yeah germination! Been a week straight of 3x per day 10 min per zone. Happy I invested in the irrigation system as we haven't had a drop of rain the entire time, but perfect soil temperatures.

Looks like rain in the forecast for the next week but how should I think about easing back on the irrigation? Obviously not every seed has sprung yet but so far so good.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Here's an update two weeks after seeding. Having excellent germination, but did add some additional seed in week 2. Got some help from Mother Nature with rain last week. Plan on easing off irrigation from 3x to 2x per day (rain dependent) for 10 min per zone.


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## always_creative (Aug 28, 2020)

Looks great! Almost time for that first mow!


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

Hi, this is my 3-week check-in. Lawn is looking good, great germination and starting to thicken up. First mow scheduled for next week.

Can someone give me some guidance on throttling back on Irrigation? I'm still doing 2x per day for 10 min per zone and want to move to a more appropriate frequency and interval. I have Rachio, but have been using manual scheduling on the lawn since the reno.

Thanks in advance for your help.


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## jacheech (Aug 9, 2020)

6 month update. Looks pretty good to me. Have some weeds to contend with, but nothing like what it was before I started.


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