# Why there are more work for KBG than TTTF?



## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

I keep hearing people say that there are more work to take care of KBG than TTTF.

But I can not convince myself about this argument. 
What if I do not care about summer looks and let the KBG go dormancy?

In this case, I think KBG is so much easier to take care of than TTTF.
While, sometimes you do need detaching, but it is not that often and manageable.

However with TTTF:
first, you have to fix every hole with seed(that is $ and time). Basically, you need overseed often to keep the lawn in a good shape.

second, more importantly, if you have Poa T or Poa A problem in your lawn, the management schedule conflicts with that of TTTF.

1) for Poa A, 
With KBG , you can safely do the pre-emergence in fall (given that your KBG lawn is established).
With TTTF, not possible if you need overseed.
To get rid of Poa A you need several-year-straight spring and fall pre-emergence treatment.

2) for Poa T, (worse of the worse)
You have to kill them with roundup in spring (spring is the only effective time) and then seed. 
However, overseeding TTTF in spring is basically asking for trouble.

so, Any different thoughts?

I am debating to overseed KBG or TTTF for my lawn this fall. My lawn has TTTF (mainly ), some KBG and PYG. 
Many bare spots from previous owner, as well as Poa A and Poa T problem.

I am thinking to convert to KBG to manage the Poa A and T problem.

Please do not ask me to do renovation. 
My lawn is more than 20,000 sqft with big "V" shape slopes. 
It is not easy to do renovation, which will be a lot of work, time and $.

I know it is hard to seed KBG in a TTTF lawn. 
but I have a robot automower, which can keep the lawn at exact 2 inch (lowest setting) for months. 
The automower itself is light. I have tested that it does not bother seedlings when it is mowing.
So, do you think this will make overseeding KBG into TTTF easier?
and eventually make my life easier ?

Thank you.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

i know you dont want to do a reno, but if you really want to "convert" to a kbg lawn thats probably the only option. ive read that pgr applied 3-4 days prior to overseeding kbg can help but overseeding kbg in to a tttf lawn is going to be expensive and ineffecient. i dont think the automower is going to provide much help in getting the kbg established.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

You can manage Poa A in a TTTF lawn with a combination of fall Tenacity at seeding followed by pre-emergent and spring pre-emergent +/- Tenacity. KBG can have more disese issues, but not always. Other than that, they are very similar in management. TTTF will tolerate heat and low water better, but won't go dormant like KBG.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@jacobpd I think you answered to your own questions...and the additional inputs from other members completes the picture.
Over seeding maybe a chore but also a blessing. It depends of what your goals are. Same applies to summer dormancy of KBG. You don't mind a yellow view for weeks?
I can only add that KBG, in general requires higher N inputs and lower HOC, which plays to the mowing frequency.
Even if I had a choice (In Canada the only think that definitely survives winters is KBG), I would go KBG, but I want and can spend the time and $ to do it right. That is 100% my personal choice. I can see people chose TTTF and that is perfect for their given situation. IMO KBG needs more time, but not by much.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

bernstem said:


> You can manage Poa A in a TTTF lawn with a combination of fall Tenacity at seeding followed by pre-emergent and spring pre-emergent +/- Tenacity. KBG can have more disese issues, but not always. Other than that, they are very similar in management. TTTF will tolerate heat and low water better, but won't go dormant like KBG.


can you treat lawn with tenacity in large area?

It looks like only for spot treatment.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

jha4aamu said:


> i know you dont want to do a reno, but if you really want to "convert" to a kbg lawn thats probably the only option. ive read that pgr applied 3-4 days prior to overseeding kbg can help but overseeding kbg in to a tttf lawn is going to be expensive and ineffecient. i dont think the automower is going to provide much help in getting the kbg established.


In terms of reno. I mean I do not want to roundup all and redo everything as it is a really large project. 
But I do not mind to a little "deeper" over seeding, i.e. scalp the lawn with my robot mower and then slit seeding.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

Babameca said:


> @jacobpd I think you answered to your own questions...and the additional inputs from other members completes the picture.
> Over seeding maybe a chore but also a blessing. It depends of what your goals are. Same applies to summer dormancy of KBG. You don't mind a yellow view for weeks?
> I can only add that KBG, in general requires higher N inputs and lower HOC, which plays to the mowing frequency.
> Even if I had a choice (In Canada the only think that definitely survives winters is KBG), I would go KBG, but I want and can spend the time and $ to do it right. That is 100% my personal choice. I can see people chose TTTF and that is perfect for their given situation. IMO KBG needs more time, but not by much.


Thank for the conclusion. I think I still need to add KBG to my lawn. I need them the fill the gaps of my lawn.

Here is my plan:

This fall. 
1) Roundup a small area to grow KBG (using this pure KBG area to generate plugs) 
2) At the same time, scalp the lawn with my robot mower, add PGR to slow down growth. 
Then slit seeding KBG. 
Next Year:
1) Spring and Fall do premergence to suppress Poa A. 
2) Spring or any other time, when I find Poa T patch, first roundup them, then transplant the KBG plugs from the pure KBG area.

Keep the mowing height to 2 inch or lower all year around to suppress TTTF. 
I think keep doing this will eventually convert the grass.

Also I found that when mowing high actually making my grass clump and keep too much moisture and caused brown spots in my TTTF areas.

Instead, mowing low can suppress Poa T and weeds. 
Maybe this is one of the benefits of using automower. 
I let it run 24/7. 
Most of the weeds can not grow high enough. 
They either blend with grass or fade away as they can not grow.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

jacobpd said:


> jha4aamu said:
> 
> 
> > i know you dont want to do a reno, but if you really want to "convert" to a kbg lawn thats probably the only option. ive read that pgr applied 3-4 days prior to overseeding kbg can help but overseeding kbg in to a tttf lawn is going to be expensive and ineffecient. i dont think the automower is going to provide much help in getting the kbg established.
> ...


Does your robot mower have a bag? If you go that route, you will definitely need to bag your clippings

Kbg overseeds are not impossible, just really inefficient. Prior to joining tlf, i had the same idea as you to transform my yard into kbg lawn. I probably spread about 200lb of kbg seed in a 5k area and i have about four 3' x 3' areas where i have noticeable kbg patches. The rest looks exactly the same.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@jacobpd If you have Poa T Poa A and TTTF that you don't like, why all the chore vs full Reno?
TTTF is not going to die off at low HOC, or maybe after years of being beaten up... you will live with 'patchy' lawn for years trying hard to introduce KBG with no guarantee of success... I know reno is stressful and is a lot of planning and work, but bottom line is the most efficient a rewarding.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

jha4aamu said:


> jacobpd said:
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> > jha4aamu said:
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no bag. why i need to bag the clippings in this case?

seriously? 200lb of kbg seed in 5000 sqft? Well. I need to rethink of my plan now :-(


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

Babameca said:


> @jacobpd If you have Poa T Poa A and TTTF that you don't like, why all the chore vs full Reno?
> TTTF is not going to die off at low HOC, or maybe after years of being beaten up... you will live with 'patchy' lawn for years trying hard to introduce KBG with no guarantee of success... I know reno is stressful and is a lot of planning and work, but bottom line is the most efficient a rewarding.


My concern is that even I reno, after that I may still have Poa T and other types of weed. 
I really do not like to pour roundup in my yard. It is an environmental disaster. 
My lawn has patches now. :-(


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

BTW, anybody knows that what kind of weed this is?

I roundup a small area last year. but this thing still come up. 
It is really dark green. 
If I mow low, I can not distinguish it from kbg or tttf. 
Once I let it grow higher, it looks like this.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@jacobpd I am in the same boat about Glypho. Unfortunately the farmer next door uses the amount you will put once (probably in your life) every 10 min... There are other options for a full Reno than Glypho too. Remove all with sod cutter, till (optional) and regrade then seed (or sod) with Tenacity. Never tried that (hope someone will chime in).


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

Babameca said:


> @jacobpd I am in the same boat about Glypho. Unfortunately the farmer next door uses the amount you will put once (probably in your life) every 10 min... There are other options for a full Reno than Glypho too. Remove all with sod cutter, till (optional) and regrade then seed (or sod) with Tenacity. Never tried that (hope someone will chime in).


That is what i said TOOOOO MUCH. 
We really have other things to do other than just lawn. LOL.

Anyway, see this article. 
https://extension.umn.edu/lawn-care/renovating-lawn-quality-and-sustainability
No roundup step. 
Looks like the renovation by UMN is a deep overseeding.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

jacobpd said:


> jha4aamu said:
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You want your seeds to have good contact with the soil. So if your have excess clippings from scalping you may have alot of seeds that never reach the soil and just sit on top of the clippings


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

jha4aamu said:


> jacobpd said:
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I see. I can run my push mower with bag to scalp again though.


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## harshaj1 (Apr 11, 2020)

I did a complete renovation last year to my 13500 sq feet lawn with a seed mixture with predominantly *** from seed super store. I also have a automower that mow daily at setting 4 which is little over 1".
These are some of the observations from one season.
1. I leveled the lawn with dirt but after one season it is still bumpy. I would do a mixture of dirt and sand instead of dirt alone. Dirt settles over time.
2. I killed the lawn with round up before seeding. I still have patches of poa A that came through . Much less than before. Use of tenacity to spot spray and cutting it low makes poa less visible.
3. Daily mowing with the automower made a huge difference. My lawn is thick and no weeds. My neighbor's lawn is covered with weeds
4. I just started applying PGR( T-Nex) at half rate. Got done with the first app. After three weeks the lawn is darker. I had a control area that I didn't apply PGR. I can see a clear difference. The rate of KBG growth with PGR is noticeable but less than I expected. This could be due to rate of application, rain and fert applications. Next app will be full strength. Will see what happens.
5. I have a 2000 sq feet area that I seeded with Scotts sun and shade mix. The more expensive cultivar from superseed store is darker and finer but not by much. If I didn't have a control area to compare, the difference is hard to notice. Cannot comment on other attributes like disease tolerance with just one season.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

jacobpd said:


> can you treat lawn with tenacity in large area?
> 
> It looks like only for spot treatment.


You can blanket spray the lawn. It will lighten the color of desirable grass, but will really highlight Annua. One common technique is to blanket spray with a low dose (~2 Oz/Acre) which will highlight the Annua and won't do much to good grass color, then spot spray areas that have Annua. If the whole lawn lights up with Annua, then follow up with a blanket spray at the higher rate. Generally speaking, several sprays at a lower dose (2-4 Oz/Acre) overy 2-4 weeks are better than a big 8 Oz/Acre dose once.

If you are thinking you might need to overseed this fall, leave yourself enough room in the 16 Oz/Acre yearly dose for the fall seeding. 8 Oz/Acre is usually enough for fall seeding.


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## rob13psu (May 20, 2018)

jacobpd said:


> BTW, anybody knows that what kind of weed this is?
> 
> I roundup a small area last year. but this thing still come up.
> It is really dark green.
> ...


This looks like KBG.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

bernstem said:


> jacobpd said:
> 
> 
> > can you treat lawn with tenacity in large area?
> ...


thank you for the information


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

harshaj1 said:


> I did a complete renovation last year to my 13500 sq feet lawn with a seed mixture with predominantly *** from seed super store. I also have a automower that mow daily at setting 4 which is little over 1".
> These are some of the observations from one season.
> 1. I leveled the lawn with dirt but after one season it is still bumpy. I would do a mixture of dirt and sand instead of dirt alone. Dirt settles over time.
> 2. I killed the lawn with round up before seeding. I still have patches of poa A that came through . Much less than before. Use of tenacity to spot spray and cutting it low makes poa less visible.
> ...


my automower is 430XH. It is a High version from 2 to 3.6 inch. 
My mower can not go down to 1 inch. 
But I agree continuously mowing low can get rid of weeds.


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## harshaj1 (Apr 11, 2020)

jacobpd said:


> harshaj1 said:
> 
> 
> > I did a complete renovation last year to my 13500 sq feet lawn with a seed mixture with predominantly *** from seed super store. I also have a automower that mow daily at setting 4 which is little over 1".
> ...


Mine is 430X that cuts from 0.8 to 2.6". I wanted the XH version but it was unavailable when I bought mine.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

[/quote]
Mine is 430X that cuts from 0.8 to 2.6". I wanted the XH version but it was unavailable when I bought mine.
[/quote]

But looks like you do not need anything higher than 2.5 inches

Another benefit of automower's continuously mowing is that snakes and other small animals are all gone from my yard. 
I leave the automower run 24/7 with weather Timer on. 
My automower comes out at midnight.
It keeps bugging the small animals in the yard and eventually made them relocate to other places. 
I once saw a possum walking in my neighbor's yard towards my yard and then he paused for a moment and reverse back to my neighbor's yard. :lol:


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

rob13psu said:


> jacobpd said:
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> 
> > BTW, anybody knows that what kind of weed this is?
> ...


Really? Now, I like KBG even more.

This thing come out from an area I rounded up last year. 
I did not like the grass there because it was a light green and brownish color. 
I reseeded with TTTF as everybody told me to grow Tall Fescue. 
However, last year even at Nov, the temperature was still above 80s. 
it turns out that almost all fescue seedlings came out dead and this grass came out instead.

If this is KBG, i guess the roundup failed to kill the KBG when they are in dormancy. 
Now this area is almost sealed with this dark green grass.

So, maybe an effective way to overseed KBG into TTTF is like this:

1) in summer when KBG in dormancy and TTTF still green, use roundup to lightly spray the green area to weaken the TTTF, 
2) in the fall overseed KBG, or even do nothing (if you have a descent amount of KBG in the lawn)
3) next season, the KBG will seal the gaps. 
4) Keep doing this every year. Eventually, KBG will replace TTTF.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@jacobpd You get back to Glypho. Here is option Z:
Spray Glypho to all when green and be done in no time. There is no 'light spray' of it. I don't see anything on the label saying selective herb for TTTF on KBG lawn :bandit: . It will be a mess forever, trying. A little oops and you end up with dead spot, A little too little, and you are at square zero. Yard will look as a 'nice try' for years :mrgreen:


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## NELawn (May 7, 2019)

A lot of the stuff in thus this thread sound good, but your missing some important points.....

POA Annua drops millions of seeds and germinates every year in late August when people over seed.

Killing off the lawn will not prevent next years crop of POA from coming up.

If you have triv it can only be killed in the spring, whe it goes dormant in June/July you will have to wait until next year to kill it with round up.

No pre-m works 100%, some POA Annua always makes it though every year.

Summer will not always kill poa annua,

Tenacity at seed down will not prevent all the POA Annua from germinating a long with your overseeded grass.

One tenacity app will not magically light up All your POA Annua especially at the 2oz/ac rate.

Tenacity will not magically remove all the POA Annua in you lawn after you over seed. Expect a lot of it to get through and thrive with the new grass.

Lastly, considering the costs of grass seed, watering, and maybe peat moss, you. You might want to pickup a bag mower on Craig's list for the project. I had 3 barrels of dead grass when I killed off my small lawn. You have to scalp and bag when it starts to get crunchy, wait too long and you will end up raking it all up by hand. The bag mower is worth it's weight in gold at that point. Bag it while you can.

I went through all of this 3 years ago. It's a ton of work and planning. With KBG your lawn won't be the same until the following June, and even then it will be like 2 years until you see the magic of a KBG lawn. But at year three it's amazing watching it fill in the holes.

Maybe break the lawn into sections and try one area at a time if you can.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

jacobpd said:


> rob13psu said:
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> > jacobpd said:
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i agree w/ @Babameca here. if you are breaking out the glyphosate, be prepared to kill whatever you are spraying, not just injure and have it bounce right back.

perhaps someone could add more insight, but t-nex would be a more appropriate product if you want to inhibit the growth of the existing turf in order to allow kbg seeds to have a chance.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

NELawn said:


> A lot of the stuff in thus this thread sound good, but your missing some important points.....
> 
> POA Annua drops millions of seeds and germinates every year in late August when people over seed.
> 
> ...


I do have another Kobalt 80V mower with bagging.

I know it is all relativity. 
Just because of that I prefer KBG than TTTF because KBG can fight with poa T or A naturally but TTTF relies on overseeding. 
maybe using Poa to fight Poa it a better strategy.

I am thinking to do sections by sections. 
I am starting to lower my mower to 2 inches to stress the TTTF to fall and promote KBG (I have some) to spread.


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## jacobpd (May 12, 2020)

Babameca said:


> @jacobpd You get back to Glypho. Here is option Z:
> Spray Glypho to all when green and be done in no time. There is no 'light spray' of it. I don't see anything on the label saying selective herb for TTTF on KBG lawn :bandit: . It will be a mess forever, trying. A little oops and you end up with dead spot, A little too little, and you are at square zero. Yard will look as a 'nice try' for years :mrgreen:


my point is that when KBG is in dormancy and TTTF not. Glypho will mainly kill TTTF rather than KBG especially when the dose is low.

Anyway, I decide to avoid roundup as much as possible.

Here are my new thoughts:
First, I am not really want to kill the TTTF. The reason I want to kill/weaken them is for KBG to settle down. 
If KBG can settle down easily, I do not mind TTTF. TTTF will decrease over time if not overseed anyway.

So, 
1) Once KBG settle down, it is time to do continuous pre-emergence to suppress Poa A (not 100% kill, which not possible but it is possible to limit to an acceptable level). This is where KBG is better than TTTF because KBG does not need seeding step to thrive.

2) At the same time, if find any area of Poa T, pull them as much as possible and put down KBG plug to occupy that area using pro-plugger (plugs will be developed from the pure KBG area). It is true that you can not get rid of all the Poa T. Actually even roundup can not. but It doesn't matter. As long as you can introduce strong competition (i.e. full grown KBG plugs), Poa T development in this area will be greatly reduced because the resources are limited. Plus, my automower running 24/7, Poa T is not good at handling traffic. They are always stressed.

3) Now the point is how to make KBG settle down faster in TTTF lawn:
I am going to do three things together when overseeding KBG:

a) mow the lawn as low as possible and maintain at that height to weaken other grasses.
automower can do this without bothering seedlings . (Other types of mower can not do this. Sorry)

b) apply PGR or T-NEX before seeding.

c) use the pre-germinating tech to overseed. 
For example, 
https://www.milorganite.com/professionals/golf-athletic-fields/turf-establishment/pre-germinating-seed
I read some articles that pre-germinated seed can germinate in 24 hours.

I believe using the combination of above 3 methods, KBG should be able to settle down easily.

Please Let me know if this plan is reasonable.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

You can certainly overseed KBG into TTTF. If the Fescue is thick, though, the KBG just can't establish before the Fescue crowds it out. A newly seeded KBG lawn can take 4-6 weeks before it needs mowing. Established Tall Fescue will be 6 inches tall by 4 weeks. Plant growth regulators do help with the problem, but they aren't a magic bullet and it is still challenging. Improving germination by 5 days with pre-germination may also help, but you still need 4 weeks after that before it is tall enough to touch with a mower.

You can keep Poa Annua out of Tall Fescue with Tenacity in the fall and spring pre-emergents.

Lastly, if you seed very dark grass into medium green grass it tends to look spotted. A lawn generally looks best when it is perfectly uniform. Color is secondary to uniformity in growth, color, and texture.

I would rather have 100% TTTF that is similar in color and texture, than a mix of dark bluegrass and medium fescue.


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