# Alright, is it me? Or Armyworms? Or??



## DFW245

Something's gotta give here. I've been refraining from posting about this but, I just can't figure it out for the life of me. Seeded back in June. Yes, I've made mistakes along the way including spraying weeds before seedlings were mature enough to take it. But after a month and a half since that mistake, why hasn't the grass spread or taken over? Is this a fungus issue? Weed carcass issue? Or perhaps a lack of water?

I highly doubt it's a lack of water as there are 4 sprinklers back there that run for about 15-20 mins, every other day. Once a day @ 630 am. Puts down a decent amount of water too. The far left side of the lawn is bare because apparently there's an algae problem? When I moved in, it was always flooded and was FULL of nutsedge. Like, INFESTED. Its all gone now. But everything else? Why is it so patchy? I've pushed it with alot of fert and even with no fert for a while. I can't figure out what's causing this issue. Any help would be appreciated. HOC is 1"

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I realize that some of the areas around the trees will be bare. Due to shade. I'm more interested in the reason behind why, out there closer to the gates(except the left side) why the grass refuses to grow. In spots where old weeds were and where there's just bare dirt. The 3ft radius around the tree is understandable


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## DFW245

To make it easier. I circled the areas of concern. Everywhere else is kinda to be expected.


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## Herring

I would check for tree roots under the soil and make sure it gets full sun and not shaded by the fence. What seed was put down and fertilizer amounts?

Edit, I read another post that mentioned wasp on the grass blades. My lawn had several low flying wasps and learned it was a sign of something in the thatch layer they were after, grubs, army worms, and mole crickets in my case.


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## DeepC

Try the soap bucket test. There is a lot of talk about army worms right now.


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## Darth_V8r

I would add the suggestion to dig at the transition between healthy and dying grass. Look for grubs and look at the roots for signs of disease or nematodes.


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## DFW245

Herring said:


> I would check for tree roots under the soil and make sure it gets full sun and not shaded by the fence. What seed was put down and fertilizer amounts?
> 
> Edit, I read another post that mentioned wasp on the grass blades. My lawn had several low flying wasps and learned it was a sign of something in the thatch layer they were after, grubs, army worms, and mole crickets in my case.


Wonder if that was my other post about wasps in the lawn haha.



Darth_V8r said:


> I would add the suggestion to dig at the transition between healthy and dying grass. Look for grubs and look at the roots for signs of disease or nematodes.


My thing is there doesn't seem to be much of a transition in some spots. Mainly random circles or areas of death. But I will check


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## Kicker

looks like its a case of too much shade. You have two fairly large trees and the fence that's going to be shading areas of the lawn possibly for several hours depending on the path of the sun in relation to the trees.

You seem to think that tree shade is only limited to a 3-4 foot radius around the trunk. That's not the case. The canopy is what causes the most shade and the shaded area moves as the sun does throughout the day.

I'd consider a different type of grass than bermuda for the entire area. One that's more shade tolerant.

I'd also change your watering habbits. Every other day is way too often. once or twice a week with a total of 1in is all that's needed, and potentially even less if it's shaded for most o the day.


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## DFW245

Kicker said:


> looks like its a case of too much shade. You have two fairly large trees and the fence that's going to be shading areas of the lawn possibly for several hours depending on the path of the sun in relation to the trees.
> 
> You seem to think that tree shade is only limited to a 3-4 foot radius around the trunk. That's not the case. The canopy is what causes the most shade and the shaded area moves as the sun does throughout the day.
> 
> I'd consider a different type of grass than bermuda for the entire area. One that's more shade tolerant.
> 
> I'd also change your watering habbits. Every other day is way too often. once or twice a week with a total of 1in is all that's needed, and potentially even less if it's shaded for most o the day.


Not saying youre wrong by any stretch. But hear me out. Reason I stated the shade is only about a 3ft radius, is because im almost a tad obsessive of my yard. I look at it literally at all hours of the day. Yes in the morning there is a bit of shade from said canopy of the tree, but its only about 1-2hrs max. And it gets sunlight from about 8am-7pm so yeah the entire back yard is COVERED in sunlight majority of the day. In the latter part of the day, those areas around the tree havent received much so I can understand. But the fence line is irrelevant. That shade only pops up around 5pm-7pm. Its 1pm now and those thinning areas near the tree are shady. But the rest of the lawn is full sun. And you said im watering too much, but after taking a look about 15 min ago, the ground is cracked like everywhere. Looks like a bunch of tectonic plates lol But seriously, its cracked to all hell and the sprinklers ran this morning. Doesnt make any sense, aside from maybe with the amount of sun the lawn gets and temps regularly in the mid 90s maybe im not watering enough? Not sure. But after digging up in random spots, the ground seems to be pretty dry underneath. Even at about 6" deep. Its really orange and dry. Crumbly even. No sign of grubs or armyworms or fungus. Just... dirt. The sun moves at a North east diagonal line across the back lawn and is shining at around 8-9am as stated earlier. Sun doesnt seem to be the problem as its a very very deep green surrounded by a random spot of dirt and a carcass of crabgrass. The area to the left that has the sedge problem, it gets shaded early on and you can tell.

I say all of this to say, you might not be wrong, but signs point to other things, at least up front. I did notice some very small tree roots, like very small... almost 4x thicker than grass roots small, while digging but I didnt think this would cause my problem. Ill try and post more pics to give you a closer look.


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## DFW245

For the sake of ease, We will say my house faces south and the sun moves from south west to north east.


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## Amoo316

Do you actually know how much water your sprinklers are putting down? I don't care if your sprinklers running 20 mins every other day, if you're ground is as dry as you describe, it's probably not enough. Irrigation audit is in order IMO if you dug and found no bugs.


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## DFW245

Amoo316 said:


> Do you actually know how much water your sprinklers are putting down? I don't care if your sprinklers running 20 mins every other day, if you're ground is as dry as you describe, it's probably not enough. Irrigation audit is in order IMO if you dug and found no bugs.


sigh, was afraid of that. Well, looks like i might have to look into that. And no I dont know exacts, but at 30 min it seems to be around .25in so at about 3x a week its around .75in or a bit less in spots


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## DFW245

I find it a bit curious however that in one of the pics, right by where the sprinkler head comes out, its really green but everywhere else seems to be yellowish.


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## Amoo316

Sometimes you can spend so much time staring at something that it's harder to see the obvious. Grab a bunch of little cans or order the little irrigation cups or something, spread them around the yard and figure it out. Could be a combo of uneven coverage and not enough water....etc.

.75" or less explains a lot. If you run 15-20 mins 3 days a week and get .75" from 30 min sessions, that sounds to me like you probably just flat out don't know and it's a simple thing that all your physical signs are pointing too.

Sometimes having even a decent yard is about the simple little things that people take for granted.


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## DFW245

Amoo316 said:


> Sometimes you can spend so much time staring at something that it's harder to see the obvious. Grab a bunch of little cans or order the little irrigation cups or something, spread them around the yard and figure it out. Could be a combo of uneven coverage and not enough water....etc.
> 
> .75" or less explains a lot. If you run 15-20 mins 3 days a week and get .75" from 30 min sessions, that sounds to me like you probably just flat out don't know and it's a simple thing that all your physical signs are pointing too.
> 
> Sometimes having even a decent yard is about the simple little things that people take for granted.


Well you could be right. I've done the tuna can test in a spot or two but never around the entire yard as a whole. So there could be some missing spots. The tuna can was full after about 4 sessions or so. It's only 1600sq ft so not a lot of watering space. But I can definitely try the rain gauge things and see if maybe I'm just simply not watering enough....


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## Austinite

Certainly would consider tree roots approaching the surface. Could be water schedule/drainage problem, could be worms of fungus.

It's easy to do an elimination process. I would apply one thing at a time to see what works so that you know what caused it. I would start with Insecticide with Bifenthrin 0.2% as active ingredient, such as Talstar XTRA. If no improvement after 10 days, spray fungicide with a broad range of disease coverage such as Eagle 20EW or Clearys 3336F.

Regardless of both above, what you can do now; is dig up some spots and see if there is any tree roots encroaching the root-zone of your grass.


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## DFW245

Austinite said:


> Certainly would consider tree roots approaching the surface. Could be water schedule/drainage problem, could be worms of fungus.
> 
> It's easy to do an elimination process. I would apply one thing at a time to see what works so that you know what caused it. I would start with Insecticide with Bifenthrin 0.2% as active ingredient, such as Talstar XTRA. If no improvement after 10 days, spray fungicide with a broad range of disease coverage such as Eagle 20EW or Clearys 3336F.
> 
> Regardless of both above, what you can do now; is dig up some spots and see if there is any tree roots encroaching the root-zone of your grass.


I've already dug up. Maybe about 6-7" below the surface. Didn't notice any legit roots of substantial size. I noticed the little small ones but they are few and far between. I've started the watering schedule, increasing it and seeing how the grass reacts this week. I didn't even think to do a compaction test. Maybe the soil is too compacted? I do believe I have clay soil, most of it was brownish orange when digging


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## DFW245

I think I mightve found at least, remotely an answer. After increasing the amount of water put down, the area near the sprinkler is super green now and taller than alot of other areas. Also, im starting to notice alot of bermuda seed heads for the first time. Clearly indicating stress and that may very well be drought stress. Will report back with more findings


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## DFW245

Alright, weeks later and only a slight improvement. Either this ground is crazy thirsty, or possibly the ground is compacted? Starting to doubt the armyworm theory. Just got a few inches of rain in 2 days so maybe some improvement shall be noticed? But so far, only a very very mild improvement. And in some areas, nothing at all.

Would compacted soil really hinder growth that much? The stolons are trying to reach those areas so it's not 'tainted' but grass just kinda lays around in those areas.


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## Amoo316

I think if you're seeing some response you've probably found the problem. The problem is you found it in Mid-September. Bermuda has simply slowed down a bunch. Got any current pics?


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## DFW245

Well I know down here in DFW, we are regularly seeing temps in the mid to high 80s still. Actually two days this week forecast to be in the 90s. But I suppose the lack of hours of sunlight is probably slowing it down to a crawl. Will post pics shortly


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## FATC1TY

DFW245 said:


> Well I know down here in DFW, we are regularly seeing temps in the mid to high 80s still. Actually two days this week forecast to be in the 90s. But I suppose the lack of hours of sunlight is probably slowing it down to a crawl. Will post pics shortly


Sunlight and lower angle too will slow it down. Your brief highs aren't enough to overcome lower solar, and the evenings. Look at your soil temps to see how it will move around.

There's nothing you are going to do this year to fix that, so plan for the spring.

My opinion? Get it some sand or soil mix, level your the yard and back fill- you maybr have hard cracked soil that stuff just can't get to or tack in. Seed was a waste of time and money anyways, but if you want some instant fill in- get some sod, and see if some prep will allow it to take.

If it declines - well, you've got a soil/sun issue. I think you've got some shade issues with that crowded yard and a fence, but you think it's fine so let's say that's not the problem.


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## DFW245

FATC1TY said:


> DFW245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I know down here in DFW, we are regularly seeing temps in the mid to high 80s still. Actually two days this week forecast to be in the 90s. But I suppose the lack of hours of sunlight is probably slowing it down to a crawl. Will post pics shortly
> 
> 
> 
> Sunlight and lower angle too will slow it down. Your brief highs aren't enough to overcome lower solar, and the evenings. Look at your soil temps to see how it will move around.
> 
> There's nothing you are going to do this year to fix that, so plan for the spring.
> 
> My opinion? Get it some sand or soil mix, level your the yard and back fill- you maybr have hard cracked soil that stuff just can't get to or tack in. Seed was a waste of time and money anyways, but if you want some instant fill in- get some sod, and see if some prep will allow it to take.
> 
> If it declines - well, you've got a soil/sun issue. I think you've got some shade issues with that crowded yard and a fence, but you think it's fine so let's say that's not the problem.
Click to expand...

Well yes that's why I said the lack of hours of sunlight will do it. That and possible compaction. Shade was my first guess, but judging how the areas of no grass are way smaller than the areas of shade lead me to believe that it'll grow even in those areas because the shade doesn't last that long. It kinda swoops around my back yard so to speak. Thought about levelling but truth be told it probably needs some re-grading and not just levelling. It's practically in the shape of a V. And I'd rather not do sod. With how expensive it is, it better be my last home lol seed gives me more to tussle with and more of a payoff at the end. (if it works) I'd only use sod for patch jobs or again for a purchased house.


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## FATC1TY

DFW245 said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DFW245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well I know down here in DFW, we are regularly seeing temps in the mid to high 80s still. Actually two days this week forecast to be in the 90s. But I suppose the lack of hours of sunlight is probably slowing it down to a crawl. Will post pics shortly
> 
> 
> 
> Sunlight and lower angle too will slow it down. Your brief highs aren't enough to overcome lower solar, and the evenings. Look at your soil temps to see how it will move around.
> 
> There's nothing you are going to do this year to fix that, so plan for the spring.
> 
> My opinion? Get it some sand or soil mix, level your the yard and back fill- you maybr have hard cracked soil that stuff just can't get to or tack in. Seed was a waste of time and money anyways, but if you want some instant fill in- get some sod, and see if some prep will allow it to take.
> 
> If it declines - well, you've got a soil/sun issue. I think you've got some shade issues with that crowded yard and a fence, but you think it's fine so let's say that's not the problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Well yes that's why I said the lack of hours of sunlight will do it. That and possible compaction. Shade was my first guess, but judging how the areas of no grass are way smaller than the areas of shade lead me to believe that it'll grow even in those areas because the shade doesn't last that long. It kinda swoops around my back yard so to speak. Thought about levelling but truth be told it probably needs some re-grading and not just levelling. It's practically in the shape of a V. And I'd rather not do sod. With how expensive it is, it better be my last home lol seed gives me more to tussle with and more of a payoff at the end. (if it works) I'd only use sod for patch jobs or again for a purchased house.
Click to expand...

I have similar areas on a side yard to spend degree. Lots of water sometimes pools in areas. Slow draining, low levels of direct sun, and after multiple days of rain, algae.

If you have algae, it's too shady, period.


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## DFW245

Sorry, time slipped me. But these are the updated photos. Its clear water was the issue. The grass has thickened up immensely with all the rain we've gotten. Ironically, it seems to be some seedlings coming up. And lots of em. I wonder if a cool season grass was plated before we moved in...or if the Arden 15 has just sat dormant until enough water was supplied. Low temps avg about 55-60.


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## FATC1TY

The Arden 15 certainly didn't sit dormant during summer to germinate and grow with lows at or less than 60…


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## DFW245

FATC1TY said:


> The Arden 15 certainly didn't sit dormant during summer to germinate and grow with lows at or less than 60…


Same thought I had. Know what it could be? Because it's definitely NEW grass. And looks IDENTICAL to when I was obsessively checking the growth of the Arden 15 at the seedling stage. What else could be germinating like this? And looking the way that it does....here's a couple pics





I have no clue what grass this is. But notice how the Bermuda that's coming up looks mature? And yet these new seedlings are completely different. I know its hard to tell new seedlings apart, but it does look just like the Arden 15. Yes the lows have recently reached about an avg of 55-60 but that's overnight only. Day time temps range anywhere from 75-88. And with this being my backyard, it gets TONS of sunlight. If this isn't Bermuda, does anyone have even the slightest guess?


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## DFW245

Bump


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## DFW245

No guesses as to what this new grass is?


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## Redtwin

It could be the Arden 15 but it won't make it through winter with such a late germination.


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## LittleBearBermuda

DFW245 said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arden 15 certainly didn't sit dormant during summer to germinate and grow with lows at or less than 60…
> 
> 
> 
> Same thought I had. Know what it could be? Because it's definitely NEW grass. And looks IDENTICAL to when I was obsessively checking the growth of the Arden 15 at the seedling stage. What else could be germinating like this? And looking the way that it does....here's a couple pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no clue what grass this is. But notice how the Bermuda that's coming up looks mature? And yet these new seedlings are completely different. I know its hard to tell new seedlings apart, but it does look just like the Arden 15. Yes the lows have recently reached about an avg of 55-60 but that's overnight only. Day time temps range anywhere from 75-88. And with this being my backyard, it gets TONS of sunlight. If this isn't Bermuda, does anyone have even the slightest guess?
Click to expand...

I hydroseeded arden 15 this spring. When it first germinated it looked exactly like the pictures you posted. Some on this forum said it couldn't be bermuda. But I currently have 12500SF in my backyard that says otherwise.


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## Buffalolawny

Think its soil related. Trees and shrubs look fine.

Over application may have killed your soil and or reseeded grass with residual herbicide.

Ph Level????


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## DFW245

LittleBearBermuda said:


> DFW245 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Arden 15 certainly didn't sit dormant during summer to germinate and grow with lows at or less than 60…
> 
> 
> 
> Same thought I had. Know what it could be? Because it's definitely NEW grass. And looks IDENTICAL to when I was obsessively checking the growth of the Arden 15 at the seedling stage. What else could be germinating like this? And looking the way that it does....here's a couple pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have no clue what grass this is. But notice how the Bermuda that's coming up looks mature? And yet these new seedlings are completely different. I know its hard to tell new seedlings apart, but it does look just like the Arden 15. Yes the lows have recently reached about an avg of 55-60 but that's overnight only. Day time temps range anywhere from 75-88. And with this being my backyard, it gets TONS of sunlight. If this isn't Bermuda, does anyone have even the slightest guess?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I hydroseeded arden 15 this spring. When it first germinated it looked exactly like the pictures you posted. Some on this forum said it couldn't be bermuda. But I currently have 12500SF in my backyard that says otherwise.
Click to expand...

Same thing I'm thinking. It's coming in quite heavy too. I'm starting to believe it's Bermuda. It's alot brighter green of a shade compared to whats already down. Similar to the Arden 15 I have back there.



Buffalolawny said:


> Think its soil related. Trees and shrubs look fine.
> 
> Over application may have killed your soil and or reseeded grass with residual herbicide.
> 
> Ph Level????


Well you were close..ish lol it was definitely soil related, and over application did kill off alot of the newly seeded progress. But it seems a lack of water was the culprit. As even tho temps are hitting lows, it seems to be filling in nicely.


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## DFW245

Alright. Now I HAVE to bump this. That mysterious lighter green grass has TAKEN OVER. Like my goodness has it spread. And it's growing way faster upright than the arden15/Bermuda mix. I've been cutting at about 2.5" and within a week it's at about 4.5+ looks like a ton of individual blades. But Ryegrass I've heard grows stupid fast so I don't believe it's that. Could this be some kind of KBG? It's literally spread everywhere. Even the area that was tainted by the flooding and nutsedge farm, it's almost completely filled it in. The Bermuda wouldn't even touch it. I wonder if this is some kind of weed type grass because the cold doesn't seem to slow it down and the Bermuda rarely needs a cut. Temps have been about 60s during the day and 50s at night. These past few days have been 75ish and low of 60ish. Coldest it's been was 32 or so at night and 45during the day. Bermuda is starting to go dormant, but this mystery grass hasn't taken a hit in the least bit.


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## Guest

POA


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## DFW245

Nixnix42 said:


> POA


That's what that is?? It's a weed? Or it's more of an unwanted grass? I've heard of POA annua before. Is that what that is?


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## Guest

for most its a unwanted grass although there are some golf greens made up of it..


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## DFW245

Nixnix42 said:


> for most its a unwanted grass although there are some golf greens made up of it..


Well you sir, are the real MVP. Thanks so much. Is there any sort of herbicide that gets rid of it? Maybe something that's selective and won't harm Bermuda but is not safe for use on it? It's a nice grass and all but the color doesn't blend well at all with my Arden


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## FATC1TY

DFW245 said:


> Nixnix42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> for most its a unwanted grass although there are some golf greens made up of it..
> 
> 
> 
> Well you sir, are the real MVP. Thanks so much. Is there any sort of herbicide that gets rid of it? Maybe something that's selective and won't harm Bermuda but is not safe for use on it? It's a nice grass and all but the color doesn't blend well at all with my Arden
Click to expand...

Revolver will knock it out and won't harm any of the bermuda.


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## Guest

+1 that or Image red label if you can't get Revolver


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## DFW245

Literally thank both of you!! I'll pick up some as soon as I can. Knock this stuff out. Granted, I like the texture and I like the idea I could keep it and reel mow it below an inch and it'll thicken out. But having dormant Bermuda and this growing at the same time just looks tacky. I'll douse it soon


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## rjw0283

Do you have pictures of it mature? I've never seen poa in its initial germination stage, I always spot it as it's a big ugly clump of grass.

Revolver works but it's a little pricey. Certainty will get rid of POA as well, and it's useful to have around.


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## Jagermeister

One vote here for Negate. Good price, multiple MoAs, some pre m action. I put down two apps in the Fall and it took forever to finally kill or stunt the poa outbreak I had. Revolver will likely also be very slow when cold. I learned you have to be really patient, I mean really patient.


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## Mikeyp_1284

rjw0283 said:


> Do you have pictures of it mature? I've never seen poa in its initial germination stage, I always spot it as it's a big ugly clump of grass.
> 
> Revolver works but it's a little pricey. Certainty will get rid of POA as well, and it's useful to have around.


Baby poa


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