# Looking for assistance diagnosing irrigation issue



## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Hello all! Recently discovered the forum through YouTube. Awesome!

Purchased my first home about a year and a half ago. It was new construction and I was eager to hit the ground running with a new lawn right away. In my hastiness I did minimal research on irrigation systems/companies, and tried to save some money by hiring someone who installs systems as a hobby.

In the summer of last year I experienced extreme dry spots and die off. I called a professional company to come out to look, all they did was charge me $80 to change the "fan" of certain heads.

Fast forward to this summer and it has been even harsher than last, and the lawn looks terrible. I'm at a loss. I spent thousands of dollars on this system thinking it would help me achieve a great lawn and it feels like it was all for naught. 

I would be forever greatful for any guidance or advice. I'm not sure if it's a coverage or a pressure issue or what. Any information I can provide (photos, dimensions, etc)don't hesitate to ask. Thank you in advance!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

They only way to help is to draw up the property and your current setup. I hate when companies just install heads to get the grass wet instead of even distribution.


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## Lawn_newbie (Jun 19, 2018)

I just ordered a dozen rain gauges from NRG: NRG 1.5" rain gauge

I also took video of every sprinkler head to look at the distribution pattern in each zone. When the gauges arrive I should be able to tell how much water each head is delivering along the spray path to help calibrate the head. Then use the data from each head to determine if I need to move/add heads within a specific zone to even out the distribution.


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## BooRadley (Jun 26, 2018)

Draw it up with where you heads are hitting. You can swap out sprinkler heads for different types fairly cheap. You have to look at what size your connection is. 1/2" + 3/4" common. Place your rain gauges and run you sprinklers for 30 minute. See where water is missing or overflowing. Try adjusting range / rotation to correct the issue. Look up your current heads for how to adjust. Normally a small alenkey or flathead screwdriver. It's very self rewarding when you get your watering correct.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

g-man said:


> They only way to help is to draw up the property and your current setup. I hate when companies just install heads to get the grass wet instead of even distribution.


I hear you. I'm going to get working on something with some measurements. I'll share when done. Thanks!!


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Lawn_newbie said:


> I just ordered a dozen rain gauges from NRG: NRG 1.5" rain gauge
> 
> I also took video of every sprinkler head to look at the distribution pattern in each zone. When the gauges arrive I should be able to tell how much water each head is delivering along the spray path to help calibrate the head. Then use the data from each head to determine if I need to move/add heads within a specific zone to even out the distribution.


Nice, thanks for sharing that!

That's a good call with a video...I think you are on to something with the distribution from each head, I feel like a lot of the heads don't put out the same amount of water in the middle of the stream as the end of the stream; I've put cups out before and ran zones for an hour and got barely any accumulation. But then if I adjust the "fan" I end up losing head to head coverage? That's part of the reason I'm worried it's a pressure issue...

When I do a draw up I'm going to include how far each head sprays in addition to how far apart they're spaced.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Hi all. I took the past few days to do a rough map of the set up (not to scale by any means). I should have also mentioned...the issues are only in the backyard. My front is a lot smaller and in pretty good shape. I measured distances between all heads. All heads have 1.5 nozzles. I took some photos from the deck in case that helps as well, one looking straight out, the other to the side. If there is anything else I can possible provide please don't hesitate to ask, I want to get this right! TIA so much!!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

When you say 1.5 nozzles, could describe a bit more? What brand? Color? Is it 1.5gpm?

Also, do you know the zones? 3 zones?

Is this work still in warranty?


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## unclebucks06 (Apr 25, 2018)

I'm guessing they are rotors? If they are all 1.5 then that is the easiest fix as long as you have the gpm flow to fix it. Should be 1gpm in the corners, 2 on the half circles and 4 on the full circles. You could do 1, 1.5, and 3 if your low on gpm per zone.

How far is each rotors radius? I'm guessing your head to head coverage is not very good.

Let us know what kind of heads and how many zones.


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## TommyTester (Jul 3, 2018)

What heads are in each zone? Looks like you have 10,500 feet to cover.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@unclebucks06 I don't think it is that easy. In the layout, head 11 is a real problem. It needs to reach head 12 at 34 feet, but also south to the patio at 16 feet. Either the patio gets watered or head 12 doesn't. A way around it is to add another head at 11 (11b). One is set to 180 or 270. Head 11b will be a shorter one at 16feet and either 90 or 45 (depends on how we address the area in front of the patio).

To get this perfect it might require moving every head. But maybe a few changes could get it 80% good.


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## unclebucks06 (Apr 25, 2018)

Yeah I didn't mean it that way. I hate the design my self. But I was saying that was an easy step that would definitely help in the center. Head 6 and 7 are 40+ feet away from the next row.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

g-man said:


> When you say 1.5 nozzles, could describe a bit more? What brand? Color? Is it 1.5gpm?
> 
> Also, do you know the zones? 3 zones?
> 
> Is this work still in warranty?


Hey G-man- they are black hunter heads. I believe they are rotors. Not 100% sure on the gpm...all the heads have blue nozzles that say 1.5 on them.

The backyard is 4 zones...I'm not sure on which are in which zones but that's easy enough to figure out, I'll check today after work.

No warranty unfortunately


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

unclebucks06 said:


> I'm guessing they are rotors? If they are all 1.5 then that is the easiest fix as long as you have the gpm flow to fix it. Should be 1gpm in the corners, 2 on the half circles and 4 on the full circles. You could do 1, 1.5, and 3 if your low on gpm per zone.
> 
> How far is each rotors radius? I'm guessing your head to head coverage is not very good.
> 
> Let us know what kind of heads and how many zones.


Definitely, I'll check which heads are in which zones after work today. I'll take some measurements of spray radius too. Thank you for your response!


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

TommyTester said:


> What heads are in each zone? Looks like you have 10,500 feet to cover.


Yup, you're right on the money, I have always measured out fert based on 11k sq ft.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Since they say 1.5, that would mean that they are delivering 1.5gpm of water. The corner ones (90 degrees) are spreading 1.5gpm to 1/4 of a circle, while the center (360) are spreading the same 1.5pgm over a whole circle. That means that the 360 areas are getting 1/4 of the water per area than the corners zone (assuming proper head to head coverage). Therefore the gpm nozzles cannot all be the same. Both companies that looked at your system failed to detect this very important system setup. I would not use them anymore. Are they doing your winterization?

Try to get the heads per zones and the model (PGP? ultra?). If possible, you will need to get the pressure too. I like the unclebucks06 idea of 1, 1.5 and 3, but only if the rotor works ok at 1 gpm and the 30+ feet of throw. Ideally 1.5, 3, 6 for those distances. Contracting someone good to fix this might be better for you than trying via forum post.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> they are black hunter heads. I believe they are rotors. Not 100% sure on the gpm...all the heads have blue nozzles that say 1.5 on them.


Given that description, they are most likely Hunter PGP Ultra rotors. (See https://www.hunterindustries.com/irrigation-product/rotors/pgp-ultra). Go to that site and check out the "Documents" section for the PGP Ultra. There's lots of easy-to-read information about how to properly adjust the irrigation head.

The Hunter PGP Ultra is a quality irrigation head, and has a good selection of different nozzles available. The 1.5 nozzle is the lowest-flow standard blue nozzle.

Did the installer give you the "nozzle racks" (spare nozzle sets) that came with the rotors? If not, it's not a big deal, as the nozzles are inexpensive and easy to get either online or at a local SiteOne. As others have mentioned, changing nozzle sizes in specific rotors can be done to balance irrigation rates for rotors with different arc sizes (90° or 180° or 270° or 360°).



Joehock57 said:


> The backyard is 4 zones...I'm not sure on which are in which zones but that's easy enough to figure out, I'll check today after work.


Knowing which heads are in which zones is important and can potentially be used to help achieve more uniform irrigation, especially if the installed did something smart like put perimeter heads (typically 90° and/or 180°) and central heads (usually 360°) on different zones! Please post what you find out.

What is your irrigation water source? (i.e. Do you have city/town water, or are you on a well?)

Did the installer say anything to you about your water pressure and/or the flow rate for which the system was designed?

PS: Making the head layout map is exactly the right first step in figuring out what is wrong. Well done! Doing an "irrigation audit" using the rain gauges you ordered is an important next step in understanding your current system and determining what can be done to improve it without having to start over. You can do this!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> Fast forward to this summer and it has been even harsher than last, and the lawn looks terrible. I'm at a loss. I spent thousands of dollars on this system thinking it would help me achieve a great lawn and it feels like it was all for naught.


Just read back through the rest of the thread, and I didn't see information about how you have your controller set up -- in other words, how often does it water, and how long for each zone?

What is your soil like -- have you ever done a soil test or looked to see how deep the topsoil is on top of the subsoil? What is the soil quality? Whether the soil is sandy, loamy, or contains a lot of clay greatly affects the water retention of the soil. Given your Massachusetts location, I would presume the native soil is very sandy. With new construction, though, in what looks like a new neighborhood, a lot will depend upon what the builder did when leveling the lot.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Joehock57 said:
> 
> 
> > they are black hunter heads. I believe they are rotors. Not 100% sure on the gpm...all the heads have blue nozzles that say 1.5 on them.
> ...


Hey Ken-n-Nancy!

I think those are the heads that I have. When I get home I'm going to inspect the top and see if there is any identifying info. Unfortunately he didn't leave me with anything, but I just ordered what I think are the right ones...
Hunter 782900 - Nozzle Rk, PGP Ultra/I20 Ultra Blue Noz https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052D1XWE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_1w5qBb488MCQB
I was doing some reading and they seem fairly straight forward to change out? I do have the key.

Thinking about how the zones run...I do think that some run with a combination of perimeter and central  but I could be wrong, will confirm this afternoon.

On city water...unfortunately!! Holy water bills. Got a second meter installed this year that excludes sewer. :thumbup:

On multiple times the installer blamed my issues on pressure. Last year I called him back at least twice and he always went back to claiming I have poor water pressure.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This website has way better price. http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Hunter-Rotor-Nozzle-Sets-p/665300.htm

I suggest we wait to get the model, zones to determine the right stuff to buy.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Joehock57 said:
> 
> 
> > Fast forward to this summer and it has been even harsher than last, and the lawn looks terrible. I'm at a loss. I spent thousands of dollars on this system thinking it would help me achieve a great lawn and it feels like it was all for naught.
> ...


I have the controller set up to run 60 minutes each zone. Normally 1-2 times a week, right now it's more like 3 with the heat we've had.

I have done soil test through soil savvy, I've found that my soil has been rather clay-like. I won't even get into my concerns with whatever my builder used to level my (and neighbors) lot, ha! When I first bought the house I was super concerned I would never be able to grow a nice lawn...I have little problems dominating my neighbors in the front yard though heh :thumbup:


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## TommyTester (Jul 3, 2018)

A gallon of water covers 1.27 sq ft at 1" deep, so for 10,500 sq ft you should be running about 8300 gallons per dry week. Perhaps check your meter before/after a day of irrigating to see what you are actually using per session.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> This website has way better price. http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Hunter-Rotor-Nozzle-Sets-p/665300.htm
> 
> I suggest we wait to get the model, zones to determine the right stuff to buy.


+1 on both of the above. Sprinkler Warehouse has far better prices (although for very small orders the free shipping on Amazon may make up the difference). A complete head should only cost about $10-$12 (which comes with a nozzle rack, which individually should cost less than fifty cents.)

Waiting until figuring out the model, zones, pressure, # of heads per zone, etc. will be helpful in case special nozzles may need to be ordered.

Usually city water has excellent pressure and volume, unless there is very small diameter pipe going to your house, which wouldn't be likely for a new home. Determining the pressure and volume available would be one of the first things a good sprinkler installer would need to determine in order to properly design an irrigation system. This step can often be short-cut for folks on city water as the pressure and available volume are usually much greater, and typically about the same for homes everywhere in a water district at about the same elevation. (I am on a well, which for me only provides about 5gpm at 60psi. Pressure and volume for a well system varies widely from well to well, depending upon well recharge rate, well capacity, pump size, etc.)


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

So I did some more research. They are the PGP heads. Zones are as follows in correspondence with the map I drew...
Zone 3- #s, 9, 10 and 17(there's one additional head in this zone that's in the front yard- I had my fence installed after my irrigation)
Zone 4- #s 8, 11, 12 and 15
Zone 5- #s 6, 7, 13 and 14
Zone 6- #s 2, 3, 4 and 5. 
#1 is on a front yard zone (zone 7) but physically in the backyard. 
If we're talking about the definition of good head to head coverage being each sprinkler gets the other wet...mine is poor at best..some do hit others, but barely if at all. Seems the further north of 30 ft between sprinklers the worse the head to head coverage. 
I assume I could get gallons per minute by using a bucket...would I test it off of my hose spigot though? And how would I translate this to pressure? Thanks!


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> I have the controller set up to run 60 minutes each zone. Normally 1-2 times a week, right now it's more like 3 with the heat we've had.


.

If you ran each 1.5gpm head(17 of them?) for 60 min you would theoretically put down 1530 gallons. 1530 gallons across 10,500 square feet only puts down .23" of water. And that would only be if the heads were balanced. Like others have mentioned, the centers are watering 1/4th of what the corners are and are why you are seeing dry spots in the center. You might also have Hunter PGP-ADJ heads like I do. If you do, you could fix the issue with the red nozzle racks like I did. I will wait to see what heads you actually have, but you should be able to get this setup covering alot better with changing out a few heads/ and or nozzles. Also, if you could run each zone and mark which heads are on each zone that would help alot.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> They are the PGP heads.


PGP Ultra or PGP ADJ?
The ultra should say it on the cap.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

On what zone is head 16?

There are 4 heads per zone for a total of 6gpm being used per zone (1.5*4). Without knowing your total available gpm, we cant go above 6gpm per zone. Do the bucket test to see. Also, check what is your pipe size / material at the meter (3/4 pex?, 1in copper? )

If we stay with the blue, the smallest is 1.5 (for the 90), then 3 (for the 180) and 6 (for the 360). That means that zone 5 it will be a total gpm of 18gpm. But the current design limit is 6gpm so that wont work.

Let try with the reds. 1, 3, 6 (0.7gpm, 1.2gpm, 2.7gpm (assuming 50psi)). That means that zone 5 will have a total gpm of 7.8gpm. That's above the current design limit.

Scotty, we need more power (gpm). Do the bucket test. Are the zones in the front of the house also all on 1.5 nozzles?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

The goal with the use of different nozzle sizes within a single zone is to get the same rate of water delivery on quarter-circle (90°) heads, half-circle heads, and full-circle heads. In order to match rates, a full-circle head would need to spray 4 times as much water per minute as a quarter-circle head. This is why g-man is suggesting the different nozzle sizes above.

The bad news is that you do indeed have one zone (#4) with a quarter-circle head and a full-circle head. To match coverage of the different heads in that zone, the nozzle on the full-circle head needs to flow 4 times as much water as the quarter-circle head.

The other zones only have either "quarter-circle and half-circle" or "half-circle and full-circle" heads so you only would need a 2x difference in nozzle size for those zones. What the installer should have done was put the full-circle heads on their own zone; then that zone would just need to run longer than the other zones to make up for the greater area being covered.

Presumably, you have a hose bibb (place to connect a hose) at the place where the water supply exits the house and the backflow preventer is located. To do the "bucket test" you will want to get a 5-gallon bucket, place it under that hose bibb, fully open that valve, and time how long it takes to fill the bucket. If it takes 60 seconds (one minute), you can flow 5 gpm. Hopefully you can get more like 8gpm (fill the bucket in 38 seconds) instead.

PS: What Pete1313 mentions above is important and I wanted to mention it again so that it doesn't get overlooked in the other technical discussion above. Running each head for 60 minutes is delivering just under a quarter-inch of water. Typical rule-of-thumb is 1" of water per week, with more (say 1.5") in hot, dry conditions. In a week with no natural rainfall, you'll need to run each zone in the system for 4+ hours to get 1" of water, and 6+ hours in a particularly hot, dry week. The good news is that in New England we typically get quite a bit of natural rainfall, so you won't actually have to run your irrigation system that frequently!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Oh, and it's important to determine if you have PGP-ADJ or PGP-Ultra rotors as Pete1313 mentions. The nozzles aren't interchangeable between the PGP-ADJ and PGP-Ultra rotors - they are different shapes. In order to help with nozzle selection, we'll need to know which you have. The red numbered nozzles that g-man mentions are PGP-ADJ nozzles. The red nozzles that fit the PGP-Ultra are completely different, being a "matched precipitation rate" (MPR) set, intended for a 25' radius.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

All awesome advice above. I just want to add that the PGP-ADJ heads will look like this. They won't say ADJ on them.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Morning folks
Browsing through this morning...I checked out a few more things before I head off to work-
These are my heads- so not the ultras I guess?


Did a bucket test, filled up a 5 gal in 50 seconds :/.

The front yard nozzles vary. There are 1.5s, 2, 2.5 and 3...I can do a diagram of the front if necessary, it's a lot smaller.

Thanks again for all of this help. This is such an awesome community!!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It says ultra right below the pgp.

Do the front just to see if any of the zone goes above 6gpm.

What about the meter? 3/4 PEX?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> These are my heads- so not the ultras I guess?


That IS a PGP Ultra rotor. (It says "ULTRA" on it right below the "PGP.")



Joehock57 said:


> Did a bucket test, filled up a 5 gal in 50 seconds :/.


 OK. So, to convert that into gallons per minute, some math...

To convert 5g/50sec into gallons per minute:

5 gal / 50 sec * 60 sec / 1 min = 6 gal / min.

Although that's a lower rate than we had hoped, it does match the use of 4 rotors per zone with 1.5gpm nozzles, which means your installer did at least match total flow per zone to your water supply flow.



Joehock57 said:


> The front yard nozzles vary. There are 1.5s, 2, 2.5 and 3...I can do a diagram of the front if necessary, it's a lot smaller.


The front diagram will help - it would be good to see if the installer matched precipitation rates on the nozzles in the front, as that may help explain why the lawn is performing better there. The use of some larger nozzles in the front also means that the front zones are getting more water than the back if you're running all zones for the same length of time. That's another good finding, as it's another factor which explains why the front is doing better, which means that delivering more water to the back may help it improve, too!

Another possible explanation is that the soil may be better in the front yard -- sometimes builders will put less topsoil in the back yard than the front since folks generally don't care about the back yard as much. Have you pulled a soil core in each of the front and back lawns to get an idea of the topsoil depth?

I'm guessing that sun exposure is about the same in the front and back? Does the same kind of grass appear to be in both areas?

PS: By the way, your front lawn looks awesome! Personally, I like the look of a lawn with grass maintained at a higher cut like that - it just looks so lush and feels great under bare feet! (No offense to Pete1313, whose low-cut KBG is awesome!)


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> PS: By the way, your front lawn looks awesome! Personally, I like the look of a lawn with grass maintained at a higher cut like that - it just looks so lush and feels great under bare feet! (No offense to Pete1313, whose low-cut KBG is awesome!)


No offense taken. I enjoy the look of the higher cut as well, but enjoy the shorter cut when playing sports with the kids as the ball rolls alot smoother.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Evening everyone,

Few more things...apologizes for all of the pictures in this post. I hope they are value added. And I was definitely rushing to get that picture of the head out this morning. Haha. Totally missed where it said "ultra". My bad!!

I did a bucket test on my front. Exact same as back, 50 seconds to fill.

Here are my front yard zones- to note- heads # 7 and 8 are different, they are Hunter but much smaller with red nozzles (pictures included).









In the diagrams, zones are as follows, starting with right side of yard-(According to how my controller is programmed)
Zone #1= heads 1 through 4
Zone #2= heads 5 through 8

Left side is-
Zone#7= heads 9, 10 and 11
Zone #8= 12, 13 and 14

Here are some photos of my plumbing. I'm really unsure of exactly what I'm taking pictures of with this...feel free to ask for different pictures/additional info. Sorry!



This is what my installer put in (minus the meter). The white pipe is what goes out to my garage and out the back of my house to the back flow preventer. It's smaller than the pipe in this next picture which is my main meter and what I think is the water from the street (blue pipe).



The brass piece with the handle on it in the above picture does say 1 inch on it, is that the size of the pipe? If so I'm thinking the white pipe is either 1/2 or 3/4...I can look around to see if it says it anywhere.

Thank you again for bearing with me through this post! Regardless of the outcome on this I am learning a TON and I appreciate it (g-man when you made the comment about the middle backyard zones getting 1/4 of the water that was a light bulb/duh moment haha).

Thanks everyone.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

TommyTester said:


> A gallon of water covers 1.27 sq ft at 1" deep, so for 10,500 sq ft you should be running about 8300 gallons per dry week. Perhaps check your meter before/after a day of irrigating to see what you are actually using per session.


That's a great idea, thank you!


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

@ken-n-nancy Good call about the core, I have a core-puller that I can use to check tomorrow.

And thanks for your comment :thumbup: I appreciate it. 4.25 on the time master and fuggedaboutit!! :lol:

These low cut lawns that people have are jaw dropping though....between YouTube and this forum It's tempting to consider a reel mower....think I need to get my irrigation right first though hah.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Well, your nice drawings of your front lawn basically confirm the fundamental problem -- the center section of your back yard (which looks all brown and crispy in the photos you posted) is only receiving about 1/3 (yes, one-third) of the water that most of your front lawn is receiving per minute of watering. So, effectively, when you run each zone for the same amount of time, you are watering the front lawn about 3 times as much as the center section of the back lawn where the full-circle heads are located.

Performing an irrigation audit, actually measuring the amount of water being delivered in each area, will enable you to adjust your zone times so that some zones run longer/shorter than others so that you can water each zone for the proper amount of time to deliver about the same amount of water. Changing the nozzle sizes to give more equal distribution of the water will help, too, but fundamentally, you need to water the back longer.

We can assist you in working through more details, but the good news is that you'll be able to fix this and can probably greatly improve your system just be changing nozzles and times for each zone without having to move any heads. Moving heads would be icing on the cake...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

So I'm glad you did the layout of the front. The good news first:

zone #7 - total gpm 7.5
zone #1 - total gpm 8
zone #8 -total gpm ~8

So we know we could go to 8gpm in the design.

Now the not so great news:

The blue pipe looks to be PEX (could you check in the printed text?). Could you check if it is 1in or 3/4in? It looks to be 1in. Based on this website, the *safe* gpm for a 3/4 pex is 7gpm and 12 gpm for a 1in. https://www.irrigationtutorials.com/gpm-psi-municipal-water-source/

The part I dont like is the restriction in the copper pipe near the meter (it has a tie wrap holding the cable). It looks to be like 1/2in. It should help your gpm/pressure to have that changed. I dont get why that's there.

Now to which nozzle to use. With the PGP ultra the only option that keeps your radius is the blue ones. So we are back at the same problem we had with zone 5. That zone needs 18gpm. In an ideal world I would like to split backyard heads 12, 13, 14 into it own zone so we could extend the runtime to get it to match the rest. I doubt you want to do that.

So now is the time to compromise and try something.

For a test I would order around 8 of the pgp ultra blue 3 nozzles. I would then change heads 13, 14 to nozzle 3. Leave heads 6, 7 at 1.5 Then will place this zone at 9gpm. It is above the 8gpm, but I think it will work if the blue pipe is 1in PEX. If it works, then you will need to run this zone twice as long to get it to match the rest.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

G-man-
I looked at my piping more closely this morning. The blue does say "1 in PEX" on it. The thinner white one (which I think is the one you're referring to with the cable tie) says "3/4" (but not PEX anywhere. Says "Shark bite" but I'm wondering if that's just a brand).

I found a SiteOne 2.5 miles from me so I'm going to go down there on Friday to hopefully pick up nozzles.

So do you think I should leave heads 11 and 12 at 1.5 as well? Don't change those to 3?

Thanks!


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

The way I look at this picture with the 1" blue pipe is that is your main coming into the house.



This is the important picture as it shows how your irrigation is tee'd off of the house plumbing. Look close, the valve on the left says 3/4" on it so that vertical copper pipe is 3/4". Looking at the rest of the plumbing, the white sharkbite pipe, if 3/4" has a smaller inside diameter than the copper pipe and is using barbed fittings that have an even smaller inside diameter. On the meter it appears to be labeled 5/8 X 1/2.

What it looks like to me is although you have a 1" main coming into the house, the way they used the "sharkbite" pipe with barbed fittings, you essentially have a 1/2" irrigation main and is why it will be hard to get much more than 6gpm per zone. A small design change here could get your system more gpm. You could set the nozzles up to total 7.5-8 gpm but will most likely be operating with less pressure and still only putting out 6 gpm. I like @g-man's idea of fitting 3.0 nozzles on some of the heads. See how the sprinklers pop up and spray and that the pressure is still adequate.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This is the restriction I was talking about. 


Like pete1313 said, whoever T of the main and used 3/4pex is not doing you any favors. Pex has an thicker wall, so it equals 1/2in cooper. They should use 3/4 cooper or 1in pex. My house is supplied by 3/4 pex, so I had no choice to limit my gpm to 5-6.

It was late and I did not look at the other zones. But yes, if zone 5 works, then we could try to change 11 and 12 to 3. I'm not sure what is the spray pattern of 11 (360? 270?, 180?). Also what is the pattern for 15. And which zone is 16 connected to?


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

@Pete1313 so you think that the shark bite pipe is actually 1/2? I could have sworn it has 3/4 printed on it...maybe that's not indicative of the actual size? I can snap a photo after work...but regardless this is a simple fix? Just have a plumber swap out the size pipe?

@g-man spray pattern of 11 is 360...it does water the patio, had that installed after my irrigation too. 15 is around 270. I believe 16 is part of a front yard zone...I think my drawing's scale is way off and that head isn't as far behind the house as I drew it (again irrigation was put in way before fence).


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What pete means is that the use of a 3/4 pex with all the fittings equals the same flow as 1/2 cooper. That's why we will be pushing it to go aove 7gpm. After the irrigation meter, what is the pipe size to the valve manifold? 3/4pex? Swapping the 3/4pex for 1in should gain you more gpm per zone and you will need PEX tools to do this.

I would change 11 to be ~300 (sprays 15 and then the right edge of the patio). Head 8 - 1.5, Head 12 - 3, Head 11 -2.5, Head 15 - 2. This zone total is then 9gpm. This is a compromise to stay at 9. I would like to head 15 to also be 2.5, but I'm not sure if the system could handle it (9.5gpm). Area around head 8 will get over-watered since it is a 90 degree, but there is nothing we could do about it.

Since you are looking at improving this, the front could see some improvements. Head 12 and 13 (front) should switch to nozzle 3 too. So zone 7 and 8 will run the same amount of time.

Front right - head 1 - 1.5, head 2 - 1.5, Head 4 - 1.5 (this is 180) and then head 3 - 4 . If you could get more gpm, then head 3 should be 5.

Head 5 - 1.5 head 6 1.5 leave the head 7 and 8 as they are. In this zone I think you should add one more head between 1 and 6. This will be similar to head 4 (180). the distance between 1 and 6 is 41 feet, so there is no head to head coverage.

Overall, I think you should see an improvement with these changes. It will not be perfect, but closer to an even distribution. The good news is that we really only need our systems for 2.5 months and rain helps when we get it.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

In the interest of peer review, I figured I'd take a look at g-man's specific recommendations. These aren't intended to offend, but simply put a second set of eyes on the suggestions to give added confidence.

In general, the goal is to have the total flow in each zone be at the design point (seems like 9.0gpm is working for you as I thought that was in at least one of the zones in the front) while using nozzles of size 0.5x for 90° rotors, x for 180° rotors, and 2x for 360° rotors. The choice of "x" for any given zone can be varied so that the total flow for the zone is no more than 9.0gpm. This won't always be exactly attainable, so where it is necessary to depart from the preferred nozzle sizes, one should make a compromise which minimizes the harm/risk. (At this point, you can probably tell that I'm an engineer...  )

Zone 1 and Zone 2 (Front Right Side):


g-man said:


> Front right - head 1 - 1.5, head 2 - 1.5, Head 4 - 1.5 (this is 180) and then head 3 - 4 . If you could get more gpm, then head 3 should be 5.
> 
> Head 5 - 1.5 head 6 1.5 leave the head 7 and 8 as they are. In this zone I think you should add one more head between 1 and 6. This will be similar to head 4 (180). the distance between 1 and 6 is 41 feet, so there is no head to head coverage.


What g-man is recommending here is probably about what I would have done. However, since the watering seems to be working for you in this area (I don't think you've posted a photo of this section, though) I figured I should try to understand what was in the installer's head, since they clearly had a reasoning behind the nozzle sizes they chose, rather than just using the same nozzle size everywhere (which appears to be the philosophy in the back!) and watering in this area seems to be working for you.

I am wondering if the installer used the slightly larger nozzles in heads 1&2 in order to get a little more radius - to get closer to head-to-head coverage. By reducing those nozzle sizes to 1.5gpm instead of 2.0gpm, we will lose about 3' of radius which may be needed given the 33.5' spacing between those heads.

Also, I had initially presumed when looking at the drawing that heads 5 and 6 (on zone 2) were respectively 180° and 90° arcs, but I'm now wondering if those are actually 360° and 180° arcs (to water the lawn off towards the other neighbor's property). If so, having those up at 3.0gpm is the right thing to do.

Just FYI, the "red 2" nozzles in PGP-ADJ rotors #7 and #8 are NOT 2.0gpm nozzles. The nozzle numbers in the older red nozzles aren't in gpm, but are just a "size number." A "PGP-ADJ red 2" is nominally a 0.9gpm nozzle, which seems about right for that smaller area, especially if those are both 90° arcs. One could even make a case to switch them down to a "red 1" nozzle, which would be 0.7gpm, but that's a very minor change and not worth pursuing until after doing a usage audit after your containers arrive.

Lastly, I speculate that the installer's rationale in this zone was that since heads #1 and #2 had to be where they are, and it seemed logical to put heads where #5 and #6 are located, that the installer put a head (#3) practically right smack in the middle of those four in order to provide water in the center of what would otherwise be an unwatered area. That's actually not a bad idea (even though it wasn't what I would have done). If my math is right, head #3 is about 26' from the driveway and about 23' from the road. Since the nominal spray distance of a 1.5gpm nozzle is 31', the radius adjustment screw on that rotor is probably in use to keep that rotor from watering the driveway and road, which effectively increases the precipitation rate on the now-smaller area that it is watering. In other words, that rotor is delivering more water in close to the head than it would be if the radius adjustment screw was raised high enough to not hit the stream of water.

So, the final takeaway of my long-winded discussion above is that although the installer used a different approach to choosing the nozzle sizes in this zone, I think it may actually produce a pretty even water distribution. I would be inclined to not change the nozzle sizes in this area until after doing an irrigation audit, and then possibly only tweaking the sizes.

Oh, and regarding the lack of head-to-head coverage between heads 1&6 which g-man mentions. This might be tolerable, particularly if you're getting head-to-head coverage between heads 1&2 as well as between heads 5&6. The thing to look for is if cups placed about 2' away from the road and about 2' away from heads 1&6 are being underwatered compared to a cup midway between 1&6 and about 2' from the road. Head-to-head coverage would help water that area.

Zone 3 (Back Right Side): I didn't actually see g-man's recommendations for this zone. Maybe I missed it, or maybe g-man was waiting to see if the other recommended changes work? Does this zone have a 4th "mystery head" in the front lawn (front right side) that isn't on any of the diagrams? If so, I'm guessing it's probably a 90° arc rotor. Assuming that to be the case, here's what I'd suggest: #17- 1.5 (90°); #10 - 3.0 (180°); #9 - 3.0 (180°); Mystery - 1.5 (90°?). This gives a total design flow of 9.0gpm for this zone, and the 180° heads are twice the flow of the 90° heads. Head #10 may need to have the radius adjustment screw used to avoid watering the "intentionally non-irrigated area."

Zone 4: 
Note that this is the "problem zone" that has both a 90° head and a 360° head in the same zone. Ideally, their flow rates should be different by a factor of 4.



g-man said:


> I would change 11 to be ~300 (sprays 15 and then the right edge of the patio).


I had some trouble understanding the above. Eventually, I came to the conclusion that what you're saying is that you'd adjust the spray arc on 11 so that it is no longer a 360° spray arc, but approximately a 300° arc so that it no longer waters the patio? Am I understanding this right? (If so, I'd second that recommendation.)



g-man said:


> Head 8 - 1.5, Head 12 - 3, Head 11 -2.5, Head 15 - 2. This zone total is then 9gpm. This is a compromise to stay at 9. I would like to head 15 to also be 2.5, but I'm not sure if the system could handle it (9.5gpm). Area around head 8 will get over-watered since it is a 90 degree, but there is nothing we could do about it.


I concur with the above, too. I think it's probably fine that 15 is a 2.0gpm nozzle, as I speculate that the radius adjustment screw on 15 will need to be used since it appears that rotor is only about 25' from the house (41' - 16' = 25') -- the nominal radius of a 2.0gpm nozzle is 34' so I think using a 2.0gpm nozzle, adjusted down to 25' radius will be about right.

Zone 5: 
This one's easy, since it only has 180° and 360° heads. Head 6 - 1.5, Head 7 - 1.5, Head 13 - 3.0, Head 14 - 3.0 to give a design flow of 9.0gpm. Since this zone has 360° heads, it will require a longer run time (probably 2x) than zones with no 360° heads.

Zone 6: 
Not too bad, since it has only 90° and 180° heads. Head 2 - 2.0, Head 3 - 2.5, Head 4 - 2.5, Head 5 - 1.5 to give a design flow of 8.5gpm. This is a bit of a compromise. Really want the 90° head to be 50% of the flow of the 180° heads, but we can't go to a 3.0 on all the 180° heads or we'd be up at 10.5gpm. Head #2 can tolerate delivering a little less water since it is quite close to head #16 and the lawn near head #2 is going to get some early afternoon shade from the house and late afternoon shade from the fence. May even want to reduce Head 2 to 1.5gpm and increase Head 3 -3.0 and Head 4 -3.0 as it seems like the area near heads 3 & 4 is in full sun basically all day.

Zone 7: (Front Left Side, left)
Another easy one, with just 90° and 180° heads. Use a 1.5gpm for the 90° arcs, and a 3.0gpm for the 180° arcs, so Head #14 - 1.5; Head #13 - 3.0; Head #12 - 3.0; Head #1(back) - 1.5 for a total of 9.0gpm.

Zone 8: (Front Left Side, right)
This one is real easy, as you can just keep it the way it is! Head #9 - 1.5; Head #10 - 3.0; Head #11 - 3.0; Head #16(back)? - 1.5 for a total of 9.0gpm. (I guessed at head #16 being in this zone, as I didn't see that head in any of the other zones.)

The above nozzle changes shouldn't be too difficult. I'd suggest making changes like these, then performing the irrigation audit, and then tweaking as necessary to really fine-tune things. If you want to limit max design flow to 8.0gpm, then the 3.0gpm nozzles can usually be switched down to 2.5gpm nozzles to achieve that objective.

For making nozzle changes, if you're ordering from sprinkler warehouse, I'd suggest splurging an additional $0.78 to get a Hunter Nozzle Insertion Tool. http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Hunter-Nozzle-Insertion-Tool-p/hu12-3200.htm Best 78 cents I spent on a sprinkler tool!

Getting a spare rotor adjustment tool for $0.35 is also cheap insurance against losing the one you already have. http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/Hunter-Rotor-Adjustment-Tool-p/hu-05-17200.htm


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ken, yes I was trying not to water the patio with the 300 degrees and also, maybe reduce some of the flow. I skipped some zones to test the worst ones first and then do the easy ones.

One key thing to keep in mind. After all these tweaks and checks, you should wake up early and run all the zones at 5am to 6am. Why? The city pressures drops with other houses running their irrigation too plus showers. This will reduce your gpm and pressures. We are making calculated risks with zones at 9.5gpm, so checking that it actually works at those times is important.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> So, the final takeaway of my long-winded discussion above is that although the installer used a different approach to choosing the nozzle sizes in this zone, I think it may actually produce a pretty even water distribution. I would be inclined to not change the nozzle sizes in this area until after doing an irrigation audit, and then possibly only tweaking the sizes.
> 
> Oh, and regarding the lack of head-to-head coverage between heads 1&6 which g-man mentions. This might be tolerable, particularly if you're getting head-to-head coverage between heads 1&2 as well as between heads 5&6. The thing to look for is if cups placed about 2' away from the road and about 2' away from heads 1&6 are being underwatered compared to a cup midway between 1&6 and about 2' from the road. Head-to-head coverage would help water that area.


A very important point here, and worth repeating. The mathematical rules for nozzle size go out the window when the head spacings are closer than the recommended distance and the radius adjustment screw is used on one or more heads.

The only way to know if the nozzles are the right ones or not in this instance, is to do an evenness audit, using shallow, straight sided cans throughout the area, as mentioned above. Test when wind is low. As mentioned, ideally morning for this and other reasons. I have an area with a full circle head that does best with only a slightly larger nozzle than the one at the corner.

It may eventually take 20 or more such audits on each zone to eventually get all the nozzles right.

My design and landscape is so non symmetrical, I have to use a huge nozzle (5.6 gpm) in one head, and a 0.5 in another on the same zone, and it's still not perfect.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Hey all- happy Friday! Going through some posts....



> Also, I had initially presumed when looking at the drawing that heads 5 and 6 (on zone 2) were respectively 180° and 90° arcs, but I'm now wondering if those are actually 360° and 180° arcs (to water the lawn off towards the other neighbor's property). If so, having those up at 3.0gpm is the right thing to do.


So here's the sitch with that....5 is a little more than 180, 6 is about 90. That's a weird section of the yard, it's "technically" my neighbors property, but he essentially gave it up to me because it's so small/awkward. Again, after the irrigation install though. To @g-man's point, I have considered adding a head between 1 and 6, but my installer on many occasions said I don't have the pressure to support 5 heads in one zone. I probably would do well to move heads 5 and 6 back, but I've essentially just been living with it as is; when my neighbor waters his front yard he's nice enough to place his impact sprinkler on the edge of his yard/driveway and set it at 360 so it hits that section of "my" yard.



> Oh, and regarding the lack of head-to-head coverage between heads 1&6 which g-man mentions. This might be tolerable, particularly if you're getting head-to-head coverage between heads 1&2 as well as between heads 5&6. The thing to look for is if cups placed about 2' away from the road and about 2' away from heads 1&6 are being underwatered compared to a cup midway between 1&6 and about 2' from the road. Head-to-head coverage would help water that area.


The coverage between 1 and 2 and 5 and 6 are...ok. The streams don't get the opposite head wet but come close.

I'm going to try all of your suggestions for the other zones...I'm excited, I replaced head #13 in the back to a 3 and there is a NOTICABLE difference between its stream of water's "girth" vs head #14's with the 1.5 nozzle.



> One key thing to keep in mind. After all these tweaks and checks, you should wake up early and run all the zones at 5am to 6am. Why? The city pressures drops with other houses running their irrigation too plus showers. This will reduce your gpm and pressures. We are making calculated risks with zones at 9.5gpm, so checking that it actually works at those times is important.


I do normally run the system at 4am and split the back and front between different days. I have read that about pressure dropping as more "users" come into play. Especially given my situation in a new development- they just finished the last house and more and more neighbors are installing irrigation. One thing I have considered to combat this is running my system at 1 or 2 am? I was actually going to make a post about that, you don't think I would put myself at a risk for fungus doing this, do you? I didn't know if this was essentially the same as breaking the cardinal sin of lawn care of watering at night.



> Does this zone have a 4th "mystery head" in the front lawn (front right side) that isn't on any of the diagrams


Yes, I'm so sorry! Do you see the "U" I drew across from heads 7 and 8? That's a row of arborvitaes, there is one of the smaller PGP-ADJ rotors a few feet beyond that, between that landscaping and head 5. It's actually a 180 degree spray.

I'm very curious about my plumbing situation. The white shark bite pipe does say 3/4 on it...should I look to get that increased to 1 inch? Is the valve manifold the set of valves that I have encased in green boxes in my backyard? Picture- 

I see the pipe behind the valves in this picture...it's tough to tell what size it is, could it potentially be different from the size of the shark bite pipe?

As I post this I'm wondering if this black pipe going into the ground in this picture of my back flow is the one you're asking about @g-man



There's no text on this pipe...I'm wondering if it's 3/4. If feels smaller than my 1 inch main. I can take a picture closer up if need be.

Thanks again!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The black pipe is called polypipe. It looks to be 1in, but hard to tell from an image. It is used as the manifold pipe for the valves (inside the green box). You could use a small string to measure the circumference and determine the pipe size.

Now the part that I'm surprised, the outside connections are copper (looks to be 3/4in indeed and 1in out), but inside it was PEX. Could you take an image of the white PEX/meter area again that includes the exit to this part? Did they switched from 3/4pex back to 3/4 copper?

In regards to night watering, mine starts at 2am. It is better than starting at 5pm.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

Hey @g-man - hopefully this helps...the meter and main are in my laundry room, go out my garage to the back of the house where (I think) it meets the backflow preventer. Let me know if I can take any other pictures or clarify anything! Thanks!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's a pretty long run of 3/4pex. They should use 1in. By going above 7gpm, we will have high velocity on that section. I would consider having it changed to 1in PEX or 3/4 copper. I'm assuming at some point it transitions from the PEX to copper in the garage. The risk of failure for wear is really, really low, and not as important since it is in the garage. The pressure drop might be more of an issue (benefit of changing it).


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> I'm going to try all of your suggestions for the other zones...I'm excited, I replaced head #13 in the back to a 3 and there is a NOTICABLE difference between its stream of water's "girth" vs head #14's with the 1.5 nozzle.


Well done! Yes, it makes a visible difference. Your grass will notice the difference, too! 



Joehock57 said:


> I do normally run the system at 4am ... I have considered to combat this is running my system at 1 or 2 am? I was actually going to make a post about that, you don't think I would put myself at a risk for fungus doing this, do you? I didn't know if this was essentially the same as breaking the cardinal sin of lawn care of watering at night.


From my perspective, this is one of the greatly misunderstood "rules" of lawn care at the "common knowledge" level. Where's my soapbox? Ah, here it is...

The "conventional wisdom" to not water at night presumes that people are using traditional sprinklers on the end of a hose, for which watering at night means after dinner before going to bed, from say 6pm to 9pm or so. That's a time of day during which the lawn would normally be dry, so watering during that time extends the amount of time the lawn is wet, which does increase the likelihood of some diseases, particularly if one did that every single night.

However, that conventional wisdom came about before residential automatic sprinkler systems, which can start their cycles in the wee hours of the morning, like 1am or 2am. The truth is that in the parts of the USA where lawn diseases are of concern, the grass is already wet nearly every summer night by 1am or 2am because of dew. Check it yourself -- the next time you're still up at midnight on a summer night, go out to the lawn and rub your hand through the grass -- except for the driest of nights, you'll find that by midnight the lawn will be wet with dew. Having your automatic irrigation system running at 1am won't have the lawn sit wet any longer than it will do naturally, except for those rare summer nights with a very low dew point. (Plus, it turns out that if the air is dry enough that there isn't overnight dew on the grass, the air is dry enough that the diseases associated with high humidity and damp grass aren't a concern with that weather, anyway!)​
I start my watering schedule at 12:15am as I like the watering to finish as early in the morning as possible before wind disturbs the pattern and the sun starts evaporating the water being sprinkled. As it is, the system doesn't finish the lawn until 7:34am, which is later than I'd prefer. In an ideal world, I'd want to have the irrigation system finish by 6am, so that it doesn't interfere with showers in our own house, and so that the neighbors on the street are less likely to see that we're irrigating our lawn at all. 



Joehock57 said:


> > Does this zone have a 4th "mystery head" in the front lawn (front right side) that isn't on any of the diagrams
> 
> 
> Yes, I'm so sorry! Do you see the "U" I drew across from heads 7 and 8? That's a row of arborvitaes, there is one of the smaller PGP-ADJ rotors a few feet beyond that, between that landscaping and head 5. It's actually a 180 degree spray.


That's good; I wouldn't change my recommendation for that zone -- the PGP-ADJ rotor has a lower flow rate (the nozzle sizes in the other PGP-ADJ rotors you mentioned had flow rates of <1gpm), so that head won't push that zone too high in terms of total gpm.


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## Rain Bird Corp (Jun 6, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> The truth is that in the parts of the USA where lawn diseases are of concern, the grass is already wet nearly every summer night by 1am or 2am because of dew.


I live in Arizona. What is dew? :dunno:


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Rain Bird Corp said:


> I live in Arizona. What is dew? :dunno:


Essentially, it's the same as melted frost, for the six months of the year where it's too warm for frost. (I live in New Hampshire.)


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## Rain Bird Corp (Jun 6, 2018)

It seems that dew would require that there is moisture in the air. I think is called humidity. :roll:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It could get really dry in some parts of Arizona. I would guess that some of the irrigation water would be lost as it travels from the heads. It is amazing to see the small patches of green grass in a desert golf course.


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## Joehock57 (Jun 3, 2018)

What do you guys think of the gray low angle nozzles? What situations would those be used in?

Plumber coming tomorrow to look at replacing pipe going to system to 1in :thumbup:


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

It is always preceded with "honey" for me 



ken-n-nancy said:


> I live in Arizona. What is dew? :dunno:


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Joehock57 said:


> What do you guys think of the gray low angle nozzles? What situations would those be used in?


The gray low angle nozzles are intended for use in windier areas, on slopes (when the entire rotor may be mounted at an angle), or in some cases to get irrigation under tree branches. Their "normal" distribution isn't quite as good as the standard blue nozzles, so it's best to only use the low angle ones where the special features are needed.

Hunter has a good video which provides an overview of when to use each kind of nozzle: 






Joehock57 said:


> Plumber coming tomorrow to look at replacing pipe going to system to 1in :thumbup:


 That should help increase your flow rate a bit!


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