# overseed that will actually work



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

Last fall I did an overseed with the Seed Super Store sunny mix. I like the mix because it had a lot of KBG. I didn't do my research and I found that overseeding with KBG is a bad idea. I don't feel like anything came up despite the high water bill and the work of dethatching and overseeding.

I am thinking I will try again next fall with something more likely to come in. Are there other seed blends or types that would germinate faster and better? I'm in Massachusetts. I like KBG so something similar to that would be ideal. Is PRG more similar to KBG than TTTF?

Also, I own a Sun Joe scarifyer and dethatcher. Last time I used the tines to "dethatch" and remove the surface debris. Should I do that again? Would it be better to go heavy with the scarifyer?

My current lawn is all sorts of things: some KBG, some TTTF, I suspect some PRG but I can't tell, some really nasty KY-31, and a ton of fine fescue which I hate.


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## spaceman_spiff (Feb 5, 2021)

Dang, your lawn sounds exactly like my front yard. I have random patches of fine fescue and it looks TERRIBLE mixed in with everything else. I think I'm going to nuke it and start over with it next summer.


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## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

You can tell where the prior owners "patched" things by seeing the fine fescue. I also have a strip between the street and sidewalk with tons of KY31 and fine fescue. It looks terrible. I hate it. Unfortunately I just don't have the time for a full reno due to small kids.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

What do you like about KBG? Knowing that will help to guide you to alternative grasses. For example, PRG stripes better and tolerates low cutting height more than TTTF.

As for overseeing with KBG, you can improve the success rate with a few things. Use of growth regulators leading up to the overseed will help to reduce existing lawn growth. Apply at a high rate and accept some browning from the growth regulator. An aggressive scalp will help to stunt the existing lawn and allow time for germination. Power raking the day of seeding will do the same. Lastly, don't be afraid to keep the existing lawn cut. Using a reel mower set at ~1 inch or lower will help to allow sunlight to the new seedlings. You can mow an overseed with a reel at 2 weeks after seeding without damaging the new gras too much.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Good TTTF has a fine blade that blends pretty well with KBG. I'm also in MA and my whole lawn is TTTF - did an overseed 13 days ago and it is coming in well now. I've even mowed it once already.

I've had the best results overseeding with tttf using a slice seeder, then getting one final mow in just before germination starts (prob 3 days after seeding). Even in the past when I haven't had access to a slice seeder (and thus couldn't safely sneak in the extra mow), tttf gets moving fast enough that it can compete.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

I'm sure there are plenty of people in MA that have KBG lawns. I preferred TTTF for my lawn for a number of reasons, like water needs and used it for my overseed this year. I am using Titan RX and Rhizing Moon and am having good early results so far. We'll find out over the next couple years how it turns out.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

Since you're talking about Fall 2022 then why not plan to make a KBG overseed work? You're talking about an overseed, right? I overseed my JG Black Beauty lawn with the same and I'm pretty sure there is some KBG in that mix that survives.

Now that I'm thinking about it, could you plug KBG into the existing lawn?


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

thin_concrete said:


> I'm sure there are plenty of people in MA that have KBG lawns. I preferred TTTF for my lawn for a number of reasons, like water needs and used it for my overseed this year. I am using Titan RX and Rhizing Moon and am having good early results so far. We'll find out over the next couple years how it turns out.


I bet the RM will do pretty well, at least


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

Why not Reno in sections? It's only one more step than an overseed. If you have a mutt mix there is no good way to help it. We have all tried it amd eventually we kill it amd start fresh. I wouldn't consider KBG unless you have irrigation amd you arent scared to water it alot. Tttf is good all around and has nice blades on the premium seed. You cant tell mine from the kbg mixed in. I will never overseed a mixed lawn in my lifetime again


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## GreenMountainLawn (Jul 23, 2019)

jimmythegreek said:


> Why not Reno in sections? It's only one more step than an overseed. If you have a mutt mix there is no good way to help it. We have all tried it amd eventually we kill it amd start fresh. I wouldn't consider KBG unless you have irrigation amd you arent scared to water it alot. Tttf is good all around and has nice blades on the premium seed. You cant tell mine from the kbg mixed in. I will never overseed a mixed lawn in my lifetime again


I agree with you totally. I think if you have an older NoMix with older cultivars, overseeding elite cultivars into it will never give you the results you are looking for. It may add a little bit of color, but won't change it dramatically IMO. I have a similar lawn as the OP is describing, and did a few years of smaller section overseeds to see how it would look. Just never came out great--at least for me. Especially if you have a good deal of fine fescue in sun, it will just always drag the visual optics of the lawn down. I started to reno sections this year--just night and day between the older Mutt lawn and my renovated areas. I have 1-1.5 acres of lawn and terrible well water output, so it will be over multiple years, but worth it in the long run as opposed to overseeds. The poster has 10k of lawn, like you said maybe do it in sections at first 3-5k at time, its really not that much more work than a properly executed overseed.

I think if you already a have an elite lawn of top tier cultivars that is thin or has thinned, than an overseed can make sense. Not with a mix of fine fescue and KY 31.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

All Day NPK said:


> I am thinking I will try again next fall with something more likely to come in. Are there other seed blends or types that would germinate faster and better? I'm in Massachusetts. I like KBG so something similar to that would be ideal. Is PRG more similar to KBG than TTTF?


There is nothing similar to KBG. If you like it, that's what you should seed with. In order to have the lawn you want, you will have to renovate and kill off what you have. Especially if you have KY-31.

KBG, PRG and TTTF all have different traits. You won't find a KBG-like grass that germinates faster.

I like what @GreenMountainLawn said above - seeding elite cultivars into your existing grass isn't going to drastically change the way it looks and behaves.

Seeding KBG into existing grass isn't a bad idea. It just isn't the best practice for all the reasons you experienced. In order to give yourself the best chance, and somebody already mentioned this, you would need to use a growth regulator, combined with very short mowing. This would buy you 2-3 weeks to allow for germination of the KBG. But even doing this isn't likely going to give you the result you are looking for.


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## LawnMavrik (Sep 22, 2020)

Might I also suggest to pre germinate the KBG to shave off days with it just sitting in the existing lawn?


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## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

I like the texture and color of KBG. I also like some of the varieties that are dwarf-like and grow low, thus keeping a lower cut longer. I like to (when I can) keep a low cut. To me low is 2.5". Ha! I have a rotary mower, not reel. I have 10,000 sq ft and would not be able to handle reel low due to all of the bumps and valleys, etc. Doing a 2.5" cut (max 3" in summer) is what I usually do which I believe is an ok spot for KBG. My tall fescue I have (KY-31 or likely others) definitely like to grow way tall and I just don't like it.

I have in-ground irrigation so I can handle watering it.

Some of the ideas here are definitely worth considering. I might consider biting off a small section and renovating that, perhaps 1-2k sq ft at most in a section of the yard not likely to get use by the kids. It could be a test plot area. For other parts of the yard, or maybe another 1-2k section I could try the combo of PGR + dethatch + scalp + overseed approach.

Thanks for for the ideas here, I have a lot of think about now!


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I love your ideas. The thing with lawn care is there are so many different routes you can take. There isn't a single right solution. Do what works for you and your time/budget/family.


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## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

All Day NPK said:


> I like the texture and color of KBG. I also like some of the varieties that are dwarf-like and grow low, thus keeping a lower cut longer. I like to (when I can) keep a low cut. To me low is 2.5". Ha! I have a rotary mower, not reel. I have 10,000 sq ft and would not be able to handle reel low due to all of the bumps and valleys, etc. Doing a 2.5" cut (max 3" in summer) is what I usually do which I believe is an ok spot for KBG. My tall fescue I have (KY-31 or likely others) definitely like to grow way tall and I just don't like it.
> 
> I have in-ground irrigation so I can handle watering it.
> 
> ...


I think you are a GREAT candidate for perennial ryegrass. I respectfully disagree with (Harts?) that "nothing is like KBG". Okay KBG is KBG, but as for similarities, PRG is similarly dark, relatively narrow bladed and can be mowed similarly. 
Most people that like the CHARACTERISTICS of KBG in general find PRG pleasing.
I think TTFescue another thing entirely. 
As for K-31, you will NEVER be able to tolerate that 'grass from Hell.' I suggest that you do whatever it takes to get it out of your yard. 
I have a yard in northern Virginia and some K-31 strayed into my zoysia…told my wife that she might see a grown man cry when I first discovered it in our lawn.😢
Unlike cool-season (seedable) grass, zoysia is tough to re-do.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

lawn-wolverine said:


> Unlike cool-season (seedable) grass, zoysia is tough to re-do.


Zoysia is killable, but admittedly harder than killing KBG or TTTF. I have done it, but you will need to tolerate a brown lawn for a couple months since you have to kill it in mid/late summer.


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## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

bernstem said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > Unlike cool-season (seedable) grass, zoysia is tough to re-do.
> ...


Why would I want to kill my zoysia?😳. I want to be rid of the K-31 IN the zoysia (this is my southern property in Virginia).
I may be out there in May with a small paintbrush painting K-31 leaves with Roundup!


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## Rucraz2 (Apr 8, 2018)

Lots of good points here and I'm in a similar situation myself except I have a little over an acre. My littlest is in kindergarten now and have just a few more yrs before I have the time for a full reno. My last place I wasted so much time and money trying to overseed to get what I wanted with kbg with minimal results. My mutt mix now still looks good compared to everyone else's in our street, but I hate it...but am tolerating it for now. That gives me a few yrs to get my irrigation in check as well as landscaping, which is a disaster now. Like many say it's a marathon, not a race. Save your time and money and do it right once.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

lawn-wolverine said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > lawn-wolverine said:
> ...


I misunderstood. :bd: When you said tough to re-do, I didn't think about the fact that Zoysia isn't from seed. I just figured you meant hard to re-do into another grass, but I killed my Zoysia because I don't like it. If it wasn't brown for almost half the year, I might like it more.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

bernstem said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > bernstem said:
> ...


I love my backyard zoysia July through September the other months can't stomach it.


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## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

lawn-wolverine said:


> I think you are a GREAT candidate for perennial ryegrass. I respectfully disagree with (Harts?) that "nothing is like KBG". Okay KBG is KBG, but as for similarities, PRG is similarly dark, relatively narrow bladed and can be mowed similarly.
> Most people that like the CHARACTERISTICS of KBG in general find PRG pleasing.
> I think TTFescue another thing entirely.
> As for K-31, you will NEVER be able to tolerate that 'grass from Hell.' I suggest that you do whatever it takes to get it out of your yard.
> ...


This is good to know, I will look into PRG options!

Quick question: would a blend of PRG and KBG be a good option such that they would mix and grow nice together?

Also, I forgot to mention: the tihng I like the most about KBG is rhizomes and self-healing!


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

All Day NPK said:


> lawn-wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > I think you are a GREAT candidate for perennial ryegrass. I respectfully disagree with (Harts?) that "nothing is like KBG". Okay KBG is KBG, but as for similarities, PRG is similarly dark, relatively narrow bladed and can be mowed similarly.
> ...


Just as an FYI, there are several TTTF options that are rhizomatic, including the Titan RX and Rhizing Moon I used in my overseed. TTTF has its own set of pros and cons, but I just wanted to pass along that KBGs aren't the only rhizomatic grasses in case you weren't aware of that.

I chose TTTF over KBG because of the watering requirements and my own patience.


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## lawn-wolverine (Aug 15, 2021)

Rucraz2 said:


> Lots of good points here and I'm in a similar situation myself except I have a little over an acre. My littlest is in kindergarten now and have just a few more yrs before I have the time for a full reno. My last place I wasted so much time and money trying to overseed to get what I wanted with kbg with minimal results. My mutt mix now still looks good compared to everyone else's in our street, but I hate it...but am tolerating it for now. That gives me a few yrs to get my irrigation in check as well as landscaping, which is a disaster now. Like many say it's a marathon, not a race. Save your time and money and do it right once.


 :thumbup: Amen to all of that.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

thin_concrete said:


> Just as an FYI, there are several TTTF options that are rhizomatic, including the Titan RX and Rhizing Moon I used in my overseed. TTTF has its own set of pros and cons, but I just wanted to pass along that KBGs aren't the only rhizomatic grasses in case you weren't aware of that.
> 
> I chose TTTF over KBG because of the watering requirements and my own patience.


I have yet to see anyone get significant spread from the rhizomatic TTTF - certainly nothing close to KBG. Maybe the newer varieties will do better, so keep us updated.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

bernstem said:


> thin_concrete said:
> 
> 
> > Just as an FYI, there are several TTTF options that are rhizomatic, including the Titan RX and Rhizing Moon I used in my overseed. TTTF has its own set of pros and cons, but I just wanted to pass along that KBGs aren't the only rhizomatic grasses in case you weren't aware of that.
> ...


Will do. I don't expect it to be as robust as KBG, but I am hoping to see something.


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## Girls4green-beginner (Sep 21, 2020)

When you overseed is it mixed with peat moss and manure? Plus water am and pm so just wet not drowning. When peat moss is dark it is enough water.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Girls4green-beginner said:


> When you overseed is it mixed with peat moss and manure? Plus water am and pm so just wet not drowning. When peat moss is dark it is enough water.


Peat is fine. Don't use manure. Not only does it smell and has bacteria in it that you don't want around, manure can bring in weed seeds and can be "hot" resulting in damage to seedlings.


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