# Starter Fertilizer vs Regular for the fall



## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Hi
I had my lawn redone about 8 weeks ago and got new sod laid (KBG) - I'm located near Toronto, Canada.

The person basically rototilled the lawn and then laid down the sod. No new soil or fertilizer before or after. It's fairly decent right now but there are a few sparse patches (due to a heatwave we had where some of the sod died), so I was advised to use the Scott's starter fertilizer a few weeks ago but haven't been able to yet.

So just wondering if it's now too late to lay that down and if I just need to use a regular fall fertilizer? And would I follow that up with any overseeding before the winter ?

Thanks!


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

"Fall" fertilizer is just a marketing gimmick.

Ever stop and think about how 30-0-8 is sold all summer long and then the 32-0-10 comes out and is called "fall fertilizer"?

I don't recommend seeding, as this will just introduce things that aren't KBG into your lawn. Let the sod repair itself.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

After 8 weeks you should be ok to give it some fert.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Can you post a couple of pics?


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I would drop some starter fertilizer now (as opposed to regular fertilizer). Since the sod installer did not apply any fertilizer, you need to get something down now with a good amount of P and K. New sod is treated similarly as newly seeded areas. You need the sod to 'root in' to establish a hearty root system before the winter. The phosphorus will help with the rooting. The potassium will help with overall plant hardiness. In a few weeks, you can begin the Fall N blitz, unless you wish to stick with a more standard fertilizer. Just make sure that any later fall applications have a high amount of quick release N (urea and/or ammonium sulfate), and don't have a high amount of K, as it can contribute to snow mold. You don't have the time or need for a lot of slow release N in the fall; that's meant for the spring.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

I have included some pics of the lawn below as requested.

Some observations and issues I would also appreciate advice on:
- lawn is quite bumpy to walk on
- there are a few small bare spots here and there (and one larger one about 12 by 6 inches) due to parts of the grass dying due to the heat earlier this summer 
- a fair bit of weeds have emerged, particularly the type in the picture below and also poa annua 
- from above grass seems pretty green and full but when I separate it with my hand there seems to be some dead grass underneath

Any and all advice appreciated as I'm a total noob at this but learning lots thru the posts, guides etc on this forum!





































@Harts


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Chris LI said:


> I would drop some starter fertilizer now (as opposed to regular fertilizer). Since the sod installer did not apply any fertilizer, you need to get something down now with a good amount of P and K. New sod is treated similarly as newly seeded areas. You need the sod to 'root in' to establish a hearty root system before the winter. The phosphorus will help with the rooting. The potassium will help with overall plant hardiness. In a few weeks, you can begin the Fall N blitz, unless you wish to stick with a more standard fertilizer. Just make sure that any later fall applications have a high amount of quick release N (urea and/or ammonium sulfate), and don't have a high amount of K, as it can contribute to snow mold. You don't have the time or need for a lot of slow release N in the fall; that's meant for the spring.


So I guess I will start with the starter fertilizer I bought which is 25-25-4. Then I'll probably have to turn my mind to the quick release N fertilizer for the fall - approximately how much time should I give between these two applications?


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

You can do quick release such as urea every couple weeks with the cooler weather providing you can irrigate (needs at least 1/4" of water, 1/2" would be better) or get rain right after you put it down. Drop 1/2lbs of nitrogen per 1k. Get the mower blades sharpened up because it will start growing and with KBG it should start filling in the bare spots.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Avid123 said:


> So I guess I will start with the starter fertilizer I bought which is 25-25-4. Then I'll probably have to turn my mind to the quick release N fertilizer for the fall - approximately how much time should I give between these two applications?


The short answer: probably 4-5 weeks, but this is a general estimate. You need some more info for better guidance.

Take a look at the label to determine two things:
1. How much slow release % is listed 
2. How many pounds of Nitrogen are applied at the spreader rate on the bag

You need to know how much show fast the N will release

1. Since your bag shows 25%N, the math would be X/25, so if it claimed 10% slow release, it would be 40% slow release.

2. To figure how many pounds of N per bag rate application, you need to calculate listed (% × weight of bag)/sq ft bag is claimed to cover at spreader rate (I shortcut a step of division by moving the decimal 3 places to the left).

I'll use numbers from the old Milorganite bag (5-2-0), because it's burned into my head. At bag rate, it covered 2,500 sq ft and weighed 36 lbs.

(.05×36)/2.5= .72 lbs N per 1000 sq ft.

FYI-I also remember that it had 3% slow release N, so that is 3/5, for 60% slow release.

Most bags of fertilizer usually will supply .5 to 1 lbs. N at the spreader setting to cover the area listed. Your sod will probably need 2-3 lbs N this fall to be in good shape. It's good to know both answers, so you can judge how many apps and how often to apply. As a rough estimate, your two apps of your starter should put you in the ballpark. You may need another fast release application or two, of N to get to the 2-3 lbs, depending on which products you choose. The straight urea 46-0-0 would be a cheap, effective way of doing so. This would be the two additional apps at roughly .5 lbs N each (.46 lbs, actually), if you apply 1 lb. of urea fertilizer, because its 46% N.

If you're not sure about the math, you can post a photo of the bag's label with the detailed info(usually back side of bag), and we can calculate it for you.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Thanks @Chris LI - so just to clarify - I can go ahead and put the starter down at the recommended rate and then based on the calculation add another round of preferably urea in abt 4 weeks time ?

The starter also says it doesn't need to be watered in but typically I've read fertilizer should be - would there be any harm in watering as usual (~1") after laying it down ?

Thanks


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

ForsheeMS said:


> You can do quick release such as urea every couple weeks with the cooler weather providing you can irrigate (needs at least 1/4" of water, 1/2" would be better) or get rain right after you put it down. Drop 1/2lbs of nitrogen per 1k. Get the mower blades sharpened up because it will start growing and with KBG it should start filling in the bare spots.


How long into the fall/winter do I need to go with this routine - first snowfall ? Here in Toronto that can be early November and at times even late October


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

@Avid123 I'm not far from Toronto. I do Urea weekly from Sep 1 - Oct 15.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

So I just laid down the starter fertilizer today. It was a 3lbs bag with 24% N but did not list the slow vs fast release amounts. So my calculation is that I've laid down approx 0.75lbs of N per 1000 sq ft.

Question: when should my next application of fertilizer be and how much (to avoid burning the grass?) Realistically I don't think I will have the time to do weekly or biweekly applications and would prefer if I can just lay down something once before winter.

Thanks again
@Chris LI and others!



Chris LI said:


> Avid123 said:
> 
> 
> > So I guess I will start with the starter fertilizer I bought which is 25-25-4. Then I'll probably have to turn my mind to the quick release N fertilizer for the fall - approximately how much time should I give between these two applications?
> ...


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Two more apps of the starter at the same rate, spaced about 4 weeks apart, should do the trick. If you have only time for one more app, maybe wait 5 weeks and drop a heavier app of N (about 1.25 lbs N, give or take).


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I apologize. I asked for pics several weeks ago and forgot to subscribe to this topic.

You've been given some solid advice.

If time is an issue for you, you can do one more app of whatever fertilizer you have on hand. While urea is preferred this time of year, any other fert will be okay.

You can do an app around October 15th. I would reduce the rate though and only put down 0.25lb N to 0.5lb N.

Since you are fairly new, you need to get used to making sure your calculations are correct to avoid over doing the nitrogen. Also, more recent studies are showing that increased nitrogen in the fall isn't better for Spring health and green up. Small amounts are just as effective.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Thanks again @Chris LI @Harts

Another newbie question - if i put down the starter once or twice more, would the extra P be an issue ? (I.e. I see urea is 46-0-0 while this is 24-25-4)


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

We normally only add P and K if a soil test determines they are deficient.

I can't tell you for certain the extra phosphorous would be harmful. I am, however mindful that you are relatively new and am not going to tell you that you "have to" do something. Considering it is late in the season, put down what you have, if you already have it on hand. If you need to buy something anyways, then I would suggest Urea. It was on sale last week at TSC (not sure if it is still running), but either way, the 55lb bag is about $50 at regular price and with your 1200sf, that bag will last you YEARS.

Again, if you already have the starter fert, throw it down. If you don't have anything on hand, but Urea. Either way, you probably only have time for one more app. Don't overdo it.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Thanks - so if I want to stay low then based on my calculation then I just need about 1 lb of urea for my lawn which would give me abt 0.38lb of N/1000sq ft. Would something like this work, instead of getting the huge bag ?

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B007OAYGEA/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_7PODDb7AYMR0Y



Harts said:


> We normally only add P and K if a soil test determines they are deficient.
> 
> I can't tell you for certain the extra phosphorous would be harmful. I am, however mindful that you are relatively new and am not going to tell you that you "have to" do something. Considering it is late in the season, put down what you have, if you already have it on hand. If you need to buy something anyways, then I would suggest Urea. It was on sale last week at TSC (not sure if it is still running), but either way, the 55lb bag is about $50 at regular price and with your 1200sf, that bag will last you YEARS.
> 
> Again, if you already have the starter fert, throw it down. If you don't have anything on hand, but Urea. Either way, you probably only have time for one more app. Don't overdo it.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

That looks soluble and would need to be sprayed. I don't have experience spraying at a rate that high - I've gone as high as 0.25lb N/M.

I think you could do it but would need a higher carrier volume - 2 gallons /M (approx 2.5 gallons for your 1200sf).

@MMoore you've done 0.5lb N as a foliar, have you not?


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Oh ok - given that I'm a complete noob and already have a spreader - I might just have to go for the big bag from TSC - it still seems to be on sale for $24.99

Thanks again for the help!


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## MMoore (Aug 8, 2018)

Harts said:


> @mmoore you've done 0.5lb N as a foliar, have you not?


I have no real way of measuring right now lol. I need a scale. it was probably on the higher side but not as much as I would have spread by any means.


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## BobRoss (Jul 3, 2019)

What fert is on sale for $24.99? I am not seeing it on their site.


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## MMoore (Aug 8, 2018)

BobRoss said:


> What fert is on sale for $24.99? I am not seeing it on their site.


urea was on sale for a 4 day sale. they will probably still honor it if you ask


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

BobRoss said:


> What fert is on sale for $24.99? I am not seeing it on their site.


Here's what I am seeing online - 25kg bag of urea 46-0-0 for $24.99

https://www.tscstores.com/25KG-46-0-0-TSC-UREA-P31918.aspx


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Turns out there's no TSC stores within a reasonable driving distance to me (im in Ajax, ON) so I'm probably gonna have to call around nurseries, garden centres etc.

If any fellow Canuck has any tips on where to find urea locally in the east end of the GTA that would be helpful!


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

@Harts - sorry to bother you again but do either of these seem to be the right type of urea I can lay down with a spreader ? (I'm looking for a small amount at the moment as storage space is a bit of a challenge with the 25kg bags)

https://www.paintspot.ca/products-page/chemical/urea-1lb/

https://www.gsdye.com/product865.html


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I have no idea. I'm sorry I can't help you with those products. It's urea but urea is in a lot of things including lotion. Not sure if those bags are the same as urea fert.


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## Avid123 (Jul 31, 2019)

Alright no worries - thanks again to you and others for all your help!


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