# Lesco carbon pro line



## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

Anyone have any experience with this lesco product?
https://www.siteone.com/en/10940cpg-lesco-carbonpro-g-soil-optimizer-w-mirimichi-green-sgn-100-4/p/633876

Says it helps with green up plus soil enhancer


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## gasdoc (Jul 24, 2019)

I have used the granular.

It is a biochar and composted chicken manure product.

Grass factor did a video on biochar that you may find useful. https://youtu.be/rJHHE-FOB8Y

Situations that may benefit from the product would be establishment, low OM and low CEC soils. I would let soil test and local conditions guide use

I liked x-soil better as a product as it was more homogeneous and easier to spread but it is no longer available.

I don't have any experience with the liquid but I believe it is just humic and a proprietary wetting agent. Seems expensive to me for what you get but again no experience with it


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

so the "bio char" and chicken sh-t add organic material to the soil? Is there a cheaper way to get organic material on the lawn? Like Peat moss, compost, etc?


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@john5246 In theory I believe the poo adds organic matter and the bio-char gives it a place to live. That being said I think a little poo here and there isn't going to move the long term needle on OM unless you free range chicken on your turf.


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## gasdoc (Jul 24, 2019)

I think the cheapest way is good old fashion root cycling which is the approach I am taking now that my turf is established.

I _think_ the bio char products helped accelerate rejuvenating my long neglected, sandy soil during a renovation and the first year after. I saw decent bumps in OM and CEC. I'm sure that's multi factorial but I would use again in that particular scenario

Peat moss is not a sustainable resource and it was quite expensive when I spread it during seeding


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

gasdoc said:


> Peat moss is not a sustainable resource and it was quite expensive when I spread it during seeding


It also sucks to spread.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

gasdoc said:


> I think the cheapest way is good old fashion root cycling ... the bio char products helped accelerate rejuvenating


^ this

The more root cycling, the more your soil benefits. The biochar helps low CEC sandy soils retain nutrients and moisture longer.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

I just picked up two bags from my SiteOne. One of the guys there used to be a golf super before working there and spoke very highly of the product. His recommendation was do two apps a year, ideally around an aeration, one spring, one fall. My CEC is low per my soil analysis and it's sandy soil as it is so I'll give it a try this year and see if it improves my results for next year.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@Togo Good to know, I'm planning on picking up some as well within the next couple of weeks. Carbon is the only lawn care luxury item I'm allowing myself this year. I bought into all of the YouTube BS earlier on but now I'm focusing on NPK & PH in accordance with my soil test.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Grass Clippins said:


> @Togo Good to know, I'm planning on picking up some as well within the next couple of weeks. Carbon is the only lawn care luxury item I'm allowing myself this year. I bought into all of the YouTube BS earlier on but now I'm focusing on NPK & PH in accordance with my soil test.


Same, I got my soil results, pH perfect for first time, still fighting a K deficiency but I'm keeping it simple, gonna spoon feed my macros, maintain pH, and this was easy to apply so I'll give it a go and if it helps great and if it doesn't then not the dumbest thing I spent $50 on 😆


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Grass Clippins said:


> @john5246 In theory I believe the poo adds organic matter and the bio-char gives it a place to live. That being said I think a little poo here and there isn't going to move the long term needle on OM unless you free range chicken on your turf.


what are your thoughts on human feces from Milwaukee?


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

gasdoc said:


> I think the cheapest way is good old fashion root cycling which is the approach I am taking now that my turf is established.
> 
> I _think_ the bio char products helped accelerate rejuvenating my long neglected, sandy soil during a renovation and the first year after. I saw decent bumps in OM and CEC. I'm sure that's multi factorial but I would use again in that particular scenario
> 
> Peat moss is not a sustainable resource and it was quite expensive when I spread it during seeding


What is "root cycling"? I actually haven't come across that term


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## creediddy2021 (Mar 27, 2021)

I was and I have been sold by Ron Henry. Just watch his videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoovGJKY8sU

I put down two bags last month. A big believer in Pro-G!


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## kdn (Aug 26, 2020)

creediddy2021 said:


> I was and I have been sold by Ron Henry. Just watch his videos:
> ...


Be mindful that some Youtubers make good money promoting products like this and at $65 for 40lb bag someone is definitely making good money here.


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

kdn said:


> creediddy2021 said:
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> > I was and I have been sold by Ron Henry. Just watch his videos:
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My local site one sells it for $24.95 / 40 lb. bag


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## kdn (Aug 26, 2020)

NJ-lawn said:


> My local site one sells it for $24.95 / 40 lb. bag


Right exactly. If we assume SiteOne are not selling at a loss and Ron can source the product at the same price then someone is making an extra $40 for each sale through Golf Course Lawn.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> @Togo Good to know, I'm planning on picking up some as well within the next couple of weeks. Carbon is the only lawn care luxury item I'm allowing myself this year. I bought into all of the YouTube BS earlier on but now I'm focusing on NPK & PH in accordance with my soil test.


full agreement with ya. I fell for the Humic BS for 2 5gal apps. I am ashamed i fell for J>P> BS. my turf is even better now concentrating on just NPK.

npk. keep it cheap. its grass......and i get mine green and thick cheeeaaap.

there are 2 guys I LIKE. Matt Martin. Pete Deny. Pete gets it done and knows how to grow turf. Matt Martin is a wealth of knowledge.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

I've used the non-pelletized version of this a few times (the Mirimichi CarbonizPN) and I've come to appreciate that it's the only reason I can even grow turf on the crap filldirt I brought in & spread under my sod! I had 0 phosphorous and just barely enough Potassium when I started. I credit these ingredients with creating a top layer where nutrients/water/roots can take hold in.

The downside to the carbon/compost mix is that it retains water so it can make clay soils a bit soggy on top.


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## gasdoc (Jul 24, 2019)

john5246 said:


> gasdoc said:
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> > I think the cheapest way is good old fashion root cycling which is the approach I am taking now that my turf is established.
> ...


Basically circle of life. Growth, death, decomposition.

"Underground plant parts such as stems (rhizomes) and roots cycle as living, dead, and decomposing organic matter.

The accumulation of organic matter in the top 3 to 6 inches of a turf system provides nutrient and water holding as well as cushioning and insulation."

http://nysgolfbmp.cals.cornell.edu/manage-organic-matter/


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

creediddy2021 said:


> I was and I have been sold by Ron Henry. Just watch his videos:
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> ...


ok so you were duped by youtubers? I think we should share pictures of our lawns and I can tell you my lawn is amazing with just using synthetic fertilizer and mulching clippings

If I ever see milorganite on sale for $8 I might buy a bag.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

kdn said:


> NJ-lawn said:
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> > My local site one sells it for $24.95 / 40 lb. bag
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like the saying goes, a fool is born every minute...

obviously there are fools in every consumer industry, women also fall for scams/snake oil a LOT with beauty products. Lip plumping and other creams are a multi-billion dollar industry

These big companies just want to cash in so Scotts and other companies will release "soil enhancers" too


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

JERSEY said:


> Grass Clippins said:
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> > @Togo Good to know, I'm planning on picking up some as well within the next couple of weeks. Carbon is the only lawn care luxury item I'm allowing myself this year. I bought into all of the YouTube BS earlier on but now I'm focusing on NPK & PH in accordance with my soil test.
> ...


I also fell for the humic. I believe it's naturally occurring in the soil anyway. Similar to how they sell you creatine when your body already makes it. There's so much unregulated scams out there.


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## creediddy2021 (Mar 27, 2021)

john5246 said:


> creediddy2021 said:
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> > I was and I have been sold by Ron Henry. Just watch his videos:
> ...


I believe we as lawn obsessors, we are going to include as many products into our lawn that give us the best results. At the time I saw Ron's videos late last year I was looking for a soil amendment product and didn't want to spend $85/bag to do it. Once I saw Ron's video, I thought for $25/bag it's well worth the try. Can I say that my soil has improved and is better now? Time will only tell. This product is supposed to work naturally within the soil over time.

In terms of synthetic vs organic, you can get very good results with synthetic fertilizers. I believe it depends on the grass type and watering schedules during the hot summer months that give you the best results. Once I switched to organic, the results speak for themselves! Some products that are synthetic that I use are starter fert as well as Ironite.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

john5246 said:


> Grass Clippins said:
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> > @john5246 In theory I believe the poo adds organic matter and the bio-char gives it a place to live. That being said I think a little poo here and there isn't going to move the long term needle on OM unless you free range chicken on your turf.
> ...


I would use it in moderation if I had the right grass type. I have fescue in the transition zone and like to get my N down before the soil heats up enough to use Milorganite. Here's a pic of how you can roll your own liquid alt to Milorganite. Who said organic had to be expensive..... :lol:


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

john5246 said:


> I think we should share pictures of our lawns and I can tell you my lawn is amazing with just using synthetic fertilizer and mulching clippings


A lot of us do share pictures of our lawns throughout the season, in fact there is a whole section of the forum dedicated to lawn journals. You should start one, I'd love to see your regimen.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

gm560 said:


> john5246 said:
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> > I think we should share pictures of our lawns and I can tell you my lawn is amazing with just using synthetic fertilizer and mulching clippings
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Ok I will go do that. I want people to see what can be accomplished for less than $150 dollars for a 5,000 sq ft lawn.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

john5246 said:


> gm560 said:
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 :thumbup:


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## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

john5246 said:


> gm560 said:
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It all depends on the start point. Maintaining a good lawn on good soil for $150 is much different then establishing a great lawn on trash soil for $150.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Ngilbe36 said:


> john5246 said:
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This is the whole point right here. If you have an established lawn in established soil, this Carbon Pro is not, and should not, be for you.

But if you are attempting to establish turf in some tough soils, the test results certainly show it can help.

It's impossible to compare one lawn to another without also comparing all the inputs, and who has time to discuss watering schedule, cutting height/frequency, grass type/cultivar, climate zone, fertilizer inputs, fungicide regimen, pesticide regimen, blade sharpening schedule, sunlight exposure, soil type, soil amendments, and human/pet traffic? :lol:


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

gm560 said:


> gasdoc said:
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> > Peat moss is not a sustainable resource and it was quite expensive when I spread it during seeding
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I found that spreading it via "top dressing" method is best. Either shovel throw it or dump it into piles and rake it in. Spreading by hand is good for accuracy and making sure you don't go too heavy, but with any sort of wind it's a complete PITA and you'll waste a lot of product. This is based off my very little experience, at least.


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## ColeLawn (Nov 11, 2020)

Ngilbe36 said:


> john5246 said:
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I'm trying to establish a great lawn on ~700sf right now, with ideal soil according to my soil test, and it has cost me well over $150 so far, and I haven't even dropped any fertilizer yet... Top soil and peat alone cost me $150. I'll report back on my water bill for this Q too...


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## SoilSecrets (Apr 12, 2019)

I have been using Mirimichi Green CarbonizPN and Lesco Carbon Pro L for a few years. They are expensive but they work quite well in my opinion.. The best results I obtained were working to till CarbonizPN (50% biochar and 50% compost into the soil.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

SoilSecrets said:


> I have been using Mirimichi Green CarbonizPN and Lesco Carbon Pro L for a few years. They are expensive but they work quite well in my opinion.. The best results I obtained were working to till CarbonizPN (50% biochar and 50% compost into the soil.


Awesome to hear. If you till this right here is a no-brainer! Love everything about this product and what it offers, especially if integrated into the soil profile. Add in some organic fertilizer into the mix (Milo, etc) and you're golden!


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

How much nitrogen should you figure 5#/M is? I'm picking some up this weekend, and I've never used this product before. I don't want to overfertilize for the year because I didn't figure this into my calculations.


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## htnguyen7 (Jun 22, 2019)

Lawndress said:


> How much nitrogen should you figure 5#/M is? I'm picking some up this weekend, and I've never used this product before. I don't want to overfertilize for the year because I didn't figure this into my calculations.


Carbon pro G or L does not contain N. It's a soil amendment.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@Lawndress Give it to her. My personal opinion on Carbon and Humic is that if you're going to do it then do it big. Half stepping with amendments is a waste.


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## Redeye (Mar 29, 2019)

I was lucky to have a SiteOne store nearby & paid $25 /bag for Carbon Pro-G Soil Optimizer.

My only concern is that this product raises pH & mine is already at 7.

I have many products that contain sulfur (AMS, Sulfate of Potash & Micrel Total 5-0-0) that will lower pH, so is there any reason to be hesitant?


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## htnguyen7 (Jun 22, 2019)

I would just do yearly soil test and adjust from there. I don't think it will raise it by any significant amount in just a few applications.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Grass Clippins said:


> @Lawndress Give it to her. My personal opinion on Carbon and Humic is that if you're going to do it then do it big. Half stepping with amendments is a waste.


Okay. I'll do 10#/M--their max application.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

htnguyen7 said:


> Lawndress said:
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> > How much nitrogen should you figure 5#/M is? I'm picking some up this weekend, and I've never used this product before. I don't want to overfertilize for the year because I didn't figure this into my calculations.
> ...


It contains chicken poo. Therefore, there is N. But I suspected that it wouldn't be too much. I was just being cautious.

I didn't check when the landscape supply co was open before I left home and I missed it. ((( I'll have to go another day.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Where are you guys (@gasdoc @Lawndress ) seeing the chicken poo specified? From what I've seen they just specify biochar & compost in a 50/50 blend, but no mention on what exactly is being composted. Here's the SDS & label:

https://mirimichigreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/46062_carbonProG.pdf


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Argh. Not sure who said the compost was chicken poo compost.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

The rep at site one specifically told me swine poo and not chicken poo


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Found this to support the swine poo


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Togo said:


> The rep at site one specifically told me swine poo and not chicken poo


I think I heard chicken poo from an online reviewer on youtube. So it's second hand. Not that I care! Lol.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

I was looking on the Lesco site, not the Mirmigreen site. All they had was a picture of the bag that wouldn't blow up large enough to see. Even their msds was useless. So thanks!


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Lawndress said:


> Togo said:
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> > The rep at site one specifically told me swine poo and not chicken poo
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Again, from what the SiteOne rep was saying, swine ranks better than chicken by a long shot second only to human poop. Idk that it makes that much of a difference but mirimichi does list it as swine on their website.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Lawndress said:


> I was looking on the Lesco site, not the Mirmigreen site. All they had was a picture of the bag that wouldn't blow up large enough to see. Even their msds was useless. So thanks!


Yeah not a problem. I had actually reached out to Lesco about this product and they basically directed me to mirimichi as it's basically their blend that's been tweaked to Lescos specs.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

I'd rather it be chicken than swine manure but i'm not really sure why. Just perception, i guess.

Thanks for digging this up @Togo . Never noticed that on the bags of carbonizPN i've previously bought.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

corneliani said:


> I'd rather it be chicken than swine manure but i'm not really sure why. Just perception, i guess.
> 
> Thanks for digging this up @Togo . Never noticed that on the bags of carbonizPN i've previously bought.


 :thumbup:
Yeah I'm not sure really how it all differs but I applied 5lbs per M now and I'll do again in the fall and see if it effects my CEC or OM at all.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Togo said:


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What matters is the NPK ratio and whether it's composted to the right degree. The rep.was probably saying that based on the fact that chicken manure is usually composted along with the bedding, while swine is composted alone. Chicken is a hotter/higher quality manure to start with, but I don't think it's usually composted without the bedding.

Cattle and horse can still have seeds survive the digestive process, which is not great.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Togo said:


> corneliani said:
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> > I'd rather it be chicken than swine manure but i'm not really sure why. Just perception, i guess.
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I wish mine would mix with the existing clay soil some but that layer is so compacted it won't allow anything through. This year I bought an aerator and will do monthly runs and topdressing to see if it helps any. My top 1/2" is the bomb though bc of this stuff! Love love love it.


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

corneliani said:


> Togo said:
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It was mentioned to do it when you aerate so that it can get down deep so may try that this way you can get it maybe 3" down into the soil. Over time that maybe will help to really make a difference?


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## Togo (Jun 7, 2017)

Lawndress said:


> What matters is the NPK ratio and whether it's composted to the right degree. The rep.was probably saying that based on the fact that chicken manure is usually composted along with the bedding, while swine is composted alone. Chicken is a hotter/higher quality manure to start with, but I don't think it's usually composted without the bedding.
> 
> Cattle and horse can still have seeds survive the digestive process, which is not great.


That's probably/possibly the direction he was going with it. Things did get a little busy in the store so we didn't really have time to geek out and get into the weeds with it although he seemed to be very knowledgeable on the subject.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Togo said:


> corneliani said:
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If you just have even half an inch of OM rich soil, it makes a huge difference. I can get this is my flowerbeds pretty easily and my shovel just sinks right in and comes up with tons of earthworms. Meanwhile I have practically no OM in my yard, and I mulch clippings and leaves!


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

john5246 said:


> gm560 said:
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you dont even have to spend $150 on 5000 sq ft
i learned alot in 4-5 years-seasons. NPK...premergent....some light weed spraying...all you need. find cheap NPK granular on craigslist........no humic-no NOTHING else.....cheap bags.......drop it and watch it.

heck, I do my mothers 5000 sq ft...all cheap craigslist bags......and I sprayed prodiamine...thats it.....in the top 3 on her street.

Hayne and Pete are right, cut it high....it thrives 
I tried low---nah....too much work and toooo much water.......im good at 3.75 and it lives in the sandy sand i got.

nothing to prove


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Looking good @JERSEY


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

I'm going low because the only dude with an amazing poa supina yard recommends it. Going to be interesting. Low mowing scares me. Lol.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@Lawndress How far south do you think poa supina would grow in dense shade? I'm just a little north of Atlanta.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Grass Clippins said:


> @Lawndress How far south do you think poa supina would grow in dense shade? I'm just a little north of Atlanta.


I don't know. I'm 7a, but I never even irrigated it until this year, which is the 4th since I seeded it. It does way, way better than Triv or annua, and it also doesn't go dormant when fine fescue does. I'm keeping my poa supina vs fine fescue thread updated. There isn't anyone on any of the lawn and garden boards that I've ever found who is in the US and has tried to make a really nice lawn out of this and has documented the process. Only one dude in Germany.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Lawndress said:


> Grass Clippins said:
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> > @Lawndress How far south do you think poa supina would grow in dense shade? I'm just a little north of Atlanta.
> ...


There was a guy in my state at one point on another site who tried it (Google "tiemco" and Poa supina), but he eventually abandoned it.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Green said:


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I wonder why. It was really slow to get established, but my terrible neglect was surely part of that. Even so, I can't imagine that it's one of those grasses that fills in after 8 weeks. So that could be part of it. I'll look him up and keep you posted. I am in heat zone 7, if that helps, and it's as happy as a pig in mud here so far. We will see if it stays that way mowed to an inch! Germany is mostly heat zone 6. If it stays happy through summer, I'd recommend it for heat zone 8, but I'd still be cautious about 9.

I'll look him up!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Lawndress

If I remember right, it had little wear tolerance. Or maybe it was disease. Or heat. I can't remember. It's late here and I need to go find lawn supplies to buy in the morning.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Green said:


> @Lawndress
> 
> If I remember right, it had little wear tolerance. Or maybe it was disease. Or heat. I can't remember. It's late here and I need to go find lawn supplies to buy in the morning.


I couldn't find him saying why. I did read every study I could find, and they said that the taller it is, the more it gets necrotic before winter. It tends to go necrotic instead of dormant in the heat. I'm next to DC, so we will see!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Lawndress said:


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Not sure if you saw this; as of mid Spring 2015, his final update, he wrote:

"...Then the weather got humid, the trees leafed in, and it began its decline. Disease was widespread due to it's density and constant wetness due to shade. Even areas that received adequate sun struggled. It's an alpine grass, adapted to cold nights, and cool, dry summer days. Coastal Connecticut has neither of those from about late June to September, plus deep shade is not helpful either. Whatever was left of my grass is currently under last years leaves. I might give the fine fescues a try again, unless I spend 6-7 grand in tree removal, but I'm not sure that's in the cards this year."


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Green said:


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Well, my poa supina spread with zero additional irrigation for the past 4 years, so maybe it'll do better than his. I got the supranova cultivar. Time will tell! It's approaching mid-June now, and I'm in a hotter area.


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

I should note that my poa annua is bare dirt, my fine fescues are trash, and my supina is still going. Crossing my fingers....

Ohhhh, here is a hint: "This grass was cut at around 1.25 inches. Now that the trees have filled in I will probably let it go to around 2 inches due to the decrease in sunlight." Research says that the higher it is, the more necrotic it gets. That's why I've now knocked it down to 1". He also said just a little while later, " Cutting at about 1.75-2 inches now. "

Looks like he did what was understandable and normal to try to make most grasses more robust but is a bad idea for poa supina's survival of heat. Even down to 3/4ths of an inch (the lowest the university went), heat stress improved with lower height. It just became less traffic resistant.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

I wanted to try their G line so I dropped 3 bags on my front lawn yesterday while the ground was still wet after a good rain. I had some minor yellowing due to our wonky weather of late and watering restrictions in place, so I didn't think it could hurt. We'll see how it turns out. I have to fertilize next weekend so hopefully the Pro G will have largely settled into the ground by then.


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

Well, this season I didnt apply any humic or carbon or any of the soil conditioners and my lawn is suffering at the first sign of heat and drought. I decided not to use it this yr is cuz I plan on renovating and saving my energy for the fall.


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