# weeds



## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Hello everyone. The is the first forum I've ever been a part of so I apologize in advance if I'm doing this incorrectly. My wife and I bought our first home a year ago and inherited a yard that was minimally taken care of. Over the spring and summer I did my best to fertilize/mow consistently/etc. but it still seems to be struggling. I did a soil sample a few weeks ago and my pH was a little high (7.2) and my phosphorous was a little low. I live in Waxahachie, TX and the soil here is straight black clay. I plan to aerate in the spring to help with compaction and I'm going to do some elemental sulfur and use ammonium sulfate to help with the pH. My biggest struggle right now is dealing with weeds. I'm hoping some of you may be able to help me ID.


...I believe this one to be crabgrass, but I'm not 100% sure.




...and these jokers I really have no idea what they are. My best guess would be nutsedge. I'm trying to come up with a game plan for post emergents and I don't want to be spraying the wrong stuff. I would prefer to blanket spray the yard if possible.

Lastly, I was hoping somebody could help me identify my grass type so that I can better manage the products that I put on in term of amount of N, grass height, preferred pH, etc.







Thank you all very much in advance. I really appreciate your time.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

crabgrass?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm thinking Dallisgrass. Not much you can do post emergence unless you happen to have some cotton crops in your yard.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 Bermuda. Have you applied a pre-emergent this Fall yet? If not I would suggest and immediate application. @Redtwin is alluding to a herbicide that available for residential called MSMA(Target 6). It is not sold in the retail environment but is available for right of way, golf course, sod farm, and cotton crop. It is usually sprayed and effective at temps above 80F. Dallisgrass and crabgrass I would spot spray but I would wait until Spring when the grass starts growing strong.

Top picture looks like Dallisgrass. Bottom picture looks like large crabgrass. 
https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/large-crabgrass/
https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/dallisgrass/
https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/yellow-nutsedge/

My recommendation for your size yard would be Coastal as a pre-emergent herbicide. 
https://www.sipcamagrousa.com/turf-products/herbicides/coastal/

Post emergent- You cannot go wrong with Celsius($107-130), Certainty($90-95), and Sulfentrazone($55-60). If you buy all three they would last you for 5+ years.

A starter fertilizer for your first several applications next year will help with the PHOS.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Thank you all for helping. @cldrunner , I applied prodiamine WG around the 3rd week in September. I don't have in ground irrigation so was trying to time it around rain. Unfortunately rain came a little late, so it sat for right around 24hrs. It was the first time I've ever sprayed pre-emergent, so I was a little uneasy about the whole thing but I think it turned out alright.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 Prodiamine will last 10-14 days just fine before it gets watered in.

From the label:
Quali-Pro Prodiamine 65 WDG should be activated by at least 0.5 inch of rainfall or irrigation before weed seeds germinate and within 14 days following application.

I would look into adding a 2nd mode of action pre-emergent. For example, Gallery(Isoxaben) is really good for broadleaf. Coastal is a mix of Prodiamine and Simazine. Two modes of action attacks those weeds two ways.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Thank you @cldrunner so I did .46oz/13g per 1,000 sq ft of prodiamine wg for my fall app and was going to do 2 split apps in the spring at .183oz/5.2g per 1,000 sq ft. per app. If I were to do the coastal how do I work this in to my program that I've already started since the coastal also has the prodiamine? Should I just wait until spring and then only use the coastal or should I go ahead and do an app now and just do a lighter app rate?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Sorry to be so cryptic on my initial response. I really don't recommend that product but there are clearly some circumstances where it is the only thing that will work. It sounds like you got your Prodiamine down effectively and watered in but dallisgrass isn't on the label. MSMA may be the only option you have; just be absolutely sure your measuring and spraying techniques are spot on.


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## MasterMech (Sep 24, 2017)

Redtwin said:


> .... MSMA may be the only option you have; just be absolutely sure your measuring and spraying techniques are spot on.


Celsius + Revolver tank mixed are labeled for Dallis control in residential turf, as is Tribute Total. I've not tried either approach as smashing it with Glyphosate and letting the Bermuda recover is much, much cheaper. If you had a widespread infestation, going with something like Tribute would likely make sense. But if you can spot treat and save buying a $300+ herbicide....


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

Right on, thanks @MasterMech. I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to herbicides, so I really appreciate the advice.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 I would wait until Spring. If you have a multi year supply of prodiamine I would think about just buying a bottle of Sulfentrazone. Prodiamine and Sulfentrazone mixed together is similiar to a product called Echelon. The two mixed together has to be one of the cost effective small lawn two mode of action approaches.

You can buy a small dose of Sulfentrazone at:
https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/collections/weed-preventer/products/sulfentrazone-4sc-select
or
https://www.seedranch.com/Sulfentrazone-4L-Herbicide-6-oz-p/sufentrzone4l-select-6.htm

I would focus on buying your post emergents. Celsius(for almost every weed except sedges) would be my first choice. Certainty(Sedges and suppression of Dallisgrass) would be my second. The reason for buying Celsius and Certainty is you can use them at any temperature (summer) and they will not ding up your bermuda.

The takeaway is that for about $250 you would have enough pre and post for 5+ years with these chemicals and coverage of about 99% of all your weed issues.

Extra Reading:
https://www.seedranch.com/Echelon-4SC-Herbicide-1-Gallon-p/echelon-4sc-gallon.htm
http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=DCxIJb4P_Z0%3d&tabid=2783&mid=5676
http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=NqGwMB457tM%3d&tabid=2783&mid=5676
Read the labels for these herbicides and you will learn alot about what they cover. I keep a PDF of all the chemical I use on my laptop for reference all the time.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

@cldrunner you're a rockstar. Can't thank you enough. I try to follow Matt Martin, Greendoc, Allyn Hane etc etc, but sometimes they're a little over my head. I have learned a lot from all of them, but like I said it can be a little too technical at times for me. Thank you very much for breaking it down to my level.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

@cldrunner , would you recommend echelon or coastal? Both seem to be a pre AND post.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 *NO*. Do not buy Echelon. What I was trying to point out is that mixing prodiamine and sulfentrazone you get the same thing as Echelon. If you have a large supply of prodiamine then you can just buy a small amount of sulfentrazone and mix together. Very cost effective.

@Amoo316 wrote a great guide and thread on small lawn herbicides. His link for sulfentrazone 8 oz seems to be the best deal for small lawns. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=432836#p432836
https://www.domyown.com/agrisel-sulfentrazone-4f-herbicide-p-21369.html

How much prodiamine do you have on hand? If you have a small supply then buy Coastal. If you have a large supply then there is no need to waste that supply and just buy Sulfentrazone and mix with the prodiamine. When you run out of prodiamine then you can buy Coastal.

Not every recommendation or advice that is given on this forum understand the difference between treating a smaller lawn and a larger lawn. It would not make sense for you to buy something like Echelon or Simazine and have a 30+ year supply sitting in your garage. I treat 1.75 acres and share with my neighbor who has 1.5 acres. We would buy and apply similiar products as a smaller lawn owner but in bulk. For example, I would never buy Coastal for myself. I just mix my own prodiamine and simazine(in grass talk it is called "roll your own".) I also never buy herbicides, insecticides, or fungicides at my local retailer. We have found places online to get them at a much lower cost.


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## RadTherapist1 (Nov 7, 2021)

@cldrunner I bought the 5oz bottle of prodiamine from yard mastery, so I don't have too much. I think I might try coastal in the spring, just so I can get the post emergent control as well. And then do Celsius and certainty for post control. Does this sound reasonable?


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## Herring (Sep 19, 2020)

Bayer also advertised Celsius Xtra, possibly eliminating the need for Certainty to be added to the tank mix and saving money?

I too had the small bottle of prodiamine and ran out this year. Coastal looks like a great option for replacement that I may invest in.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 I think that is a good plan.

When you are spraying Celsius and Certainty I have also had great results with using a small amount of surfactant to help penetrate the weeds.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/farmworks-80-20-surfactant-1-gal

Celsius Label: 
TANK MIXING CELSIUS WG HERBICIDE WITH ADJUVANTS AND FERTILIZERS
• In areas where weed pressure is high and adequate coverage is critical, add a non-ionic surfactant (NIS) at 0.25% v/v to the spray solution. • For difficult-to-control weeds, the addition of methylated seed oil (MSO) at a rate of 0.25-0.5% v/v may improve weed control.
• *Do not use a spray adjuvant at temperatures above 90 degrees.*
Certainty label:
Surfactants and Adjuvants
Use a nonionic surfactant at 0.25 to 0.5 percent by volume (1 to 2 quarts per 100 gallons of spray solution).

Your on your way to a virtually weed free lawn


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

The surfactant will make both more effective, especially in the cooler weather where they still work well but can be pretty slow. If you mess up (like a few of us have done) and apply the surfactant in warmer weather, it will seriously ding the bermuda but it won't kill it.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@RadTherapist1 Rumor has it that there is someone doing a small split of MSMA.  

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=455300#p455300


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## burntfire (Dec 10, 2020)

@Redtwin Still learning the different combos of herbicide and no idea you could mix Sulfentrazone and Prodiamine. I would think the Dismiss would bronze most grasses even on the low application?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

@burntfire Yeah... I'm pretty sure it was the Sulfentrazone and the surfactant. It was during the transition from cooler to warmer weather and I was still in winter mode. As far as mixing post- and pre-em, I don't usually mix foliar vs. soil applications but absolutely nothing wrong with it.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@burntfire Yes. It may according to the Echelon label(Prodiamine + Sulfentrazone).

Echelon 4SC herbicide applications made to fully dormant zoysiagrass does not appear to affect spring transition. Zoysiagrass tends to be most sensitive to Echelon 4SC herbicide applications during spring and fall transition. Echelon 4SC herbicide may cause temporary discol- oration to exposed leaf surfaces of certain zoysiagrass cultivars. The temporary discoloration that may occur does not adversely affect long- term growth. Affected turfgrass will recover and discolored leaf tissue will be removed with mowing.

http://www.fmcprosolutions.com/Portals/pest/Content/Docs/Labels/Echelon%204SC%2012-06-16%20Comm.pdf


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## Easyluck (Feb 5, 2019)

I would blanket spray glyphosate on the dormant, semi dormant Bermuda this winter to cleanup any tough grassy or broadleaf weeds.

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2017/02/spraying-glyphosate-on-slightly-greened-up-bermudagrass-in-winter/

Prodiamine in the spring at a low rate 0.2 oz per thousand.

Then Celsius and Certainty for any leftover weeds.


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