# Is this soap ok as a wetting agent for turf areas?



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

In addition to water and sodium laureth sulfate, it contains:

Lauramidopropyl Betaine (sounds similar to SLES; maybe fungicidal properties too?)

Lactic acid (my soil tends toward acidic)

Sodium chloride (not the greatest, I know)

Sodium Benzoate (not sure if this is good or bad. Fungicidal? Degrades AMS?)

Parfum/perfume (?)

Pentaspdium pentetate (see below)

Yellow 5 (?)

I looked up pentasodium pentetate, and it's a chelating agent similar to EDTA. Supposedly it can remove metal ions like calcium and iron from being available. Does that mean it would bind up my soil iron or calcium?

As for lactic acid, apparently it helps cause dog urine spots??


----------



## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Does this soap have a name?

I'm not a huge fan of using soap as a wetting agent as it just doesn't have the same properties as an actual wetting agent and tends to wash away fairly easily since that is it's main purpose while an actual wetting agent almost creates a film on whatever it touches and is difficult to wash away.


----------



## sheepfescue (Jul 29, 2019)

That product sounds like it is a dish soap, and I don't think it would be good for your lawn.

Lauramidopropyl betaine is an amphoteric surfactant (it has a permanent positive charge and a negative charge, depending on the pH), and is used in products such as your own as a viscosity booster and foaming agent (the molecule of lauramidopropyl betaine is slightly longer than SLES, and therefore when it incorporates into micelles, it makes the spheres larger and therefore more space it taken up and there is less space for the micelles to move around).

Salt is also in there as the primary viscosity booster, as it raises the polarity of the solvent medium (water), and therefore makes the hydrophobic alkyl chains of the surfactants even more averse to being anywhere near the the water... which causes things called "worm-like micelles" to form, which are what they sound like and--with the assistance of the amphoteric surfactant above make for a viscous product. Typically sodium chloride would be in such a product anywhere from 1% to 3%.

Sodium benzoate is a preservative... when that is used as the sole preservative, fairly high concentrations are necessary for it to be effective (in the order of 2% to 4% by weight), and--if the product is clear--the pH MUST be above 5.5 or the sodium benzoate will protonate and turn into benzoic acid. If your soil pH is above 5.5, I wouldn't worry about the benzoate mopping up protons from ammonium ion (not very likely) or hydrogen-sulfate anion.

The pentasodium pentetate is a water softener used for the purpose of making it easier to clean dishes with hard water, which is common in residential water in the USA. These types of chelators tend to preferentially bind divalent cations (such as calcium, magnesium, reduced iron, etc), render them soluble, and wash them away. I honestly don't think the amount in a dish soap is enough to have much of an effect on soil, which has incredibly large amounts of such metal ions.

Yellow 5: this is in the product at such a low amount that it is totally insignificant in the context of putting it on your lawn.

All that said, soap is soap.... it's purpose is to wash away dirt, food (plants), and other stuff from dishes and clothing...

If you're really asking... I would not recommend using that product on your lawn/in your soil.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

sheepfescue said:


> That product sounds like it is a dish soap, and I don't think it would be good for your lawn.


I think it's a dish soap, but is advertised as a hand soap. I tried washing my hands with it once, and it was horrible. I'm now trying to find another use for it, which prompted me to look into using it outside.



sheepfescue said:


> Lauramidopropyl betaine is an amphoteric surfactant (it has a permanent positive charge and a negative charge, depending on the pH), and is used in products such as your own as a viscosity booster and foaming agent (the molecule of lauramidopropyl betaine is slightly longer than SLES, and therefore when it incorporates into micelles, it makes the spheres larger and therefore more space it taken up and there is less space for the micelles to move around).


Doesn't sound that great. So, it sounds like it could attract both both positively and negatively charged soil particles. And then the whole micelle thing makes me think it would surround them in the soap bubbles.

On the flip side, if it makes the spheres larger, could that induce a "liquid aeration effect"? In quotes because of the recent video that debunked the term.



sheepfescue said:


> Salt is also in there as the primary viscosity booster, as it raises the polarity of the solvent medium (water), and therefore makes the hydrophobic alkyl chains of the surfactants even more averse to being anywhere near the the water... which causes things called "worm-like micelles" to form, which are what they sound like and--with the assistance of the amphoteric surfactant above make for a viscous product. Typically sodium chloride would be in such a product anywhere from 1% to 3%.


So you end up with a chain of these micelle spheres linked together by ionic charges? That is just weird...but makes sense if you're trying to wash off grease...they'll all attach together and slide right off. Again..."liquid aeration"??? Or maybe not...



sheepfescue said:


> Sodium benzoate is a preservative... when that is used as the sole preservative, fairly high concentrations are necessary for it to be effective (in the order of 2% to 4% by weight), and--if the product is clear--the pH MUST be above 5.5 or the sodium benzoate will protonate and turn into benzoic acid. If your soil pH is above 5.5, I wouldn't worry about the benzoate mopping up protons from ammonium ion (not very likely) or hydrogen-sulfate anion.


You confirmed the benzoate probably is not an issue.



sheepfescue said:


> The pentasodium pentetate is a water softener used for the purpose of making it easier to clean dishes with hard water, which is common in residential water in the USA. These types of chelators tend to preferentially bind divalent cations (such as calcium, magnesium, reduced iron, etc), render them soluble, and wash them away. I honestly don't think the amount in a dish soap is enough to have much of an effect on soil, which has incredibly large amounts of such metal ions.


It still doesn't sound like a positive effect. My soil needs to retain its calcium where it is, not make it mobile...it tends to be deficient, but I raised the Calcium over time with fast-acting Lime. It's no longer deficient. There is a slight insufficiency of Magnesium at the moment, though.



sheepfescue said:


> Yellow 5: this is in the product at such a low amount that it is totally insignificant in the context of putting it on your lawn.


I figured as much.



sheepfescue said:


> All that said, soap is soap.... it's purpose is to wash away dirt, food (plants), and other stuff from dishes and clothing...
> 
> If you're really asking... I would not recommend using that product on your lawn/in your soil.


Yeah, that's why I posted the ingredients. I'm stuck with this stuff and trying to find a use for it...it's no good for hands, but is advertised as a hand soap. Looks like a dish soap, though. It has a horrible fragrance, as well.

I typically use cheap shampoo as a wetting agent because it's easy get and it actually works for a little while. I will just use the shampoo again next time.

The one time I used dish soap on purpose was when home heating oil was spilled on the lawn by contractors installing a new tank...I wiped as much of it up as possible, then sprayed dish soap, wiped again, and then drenched it with a few inches of water in a few installments. It worked...the grass survived the oil spill (not a ton of oil, but enough to be concerned about, and I had seen oil kill grass before). No lingering issues in that area over a year later.

Thanks for the help itemizing the functions and properties of each ingredient. Still not sure what the heck this soap can be used for...


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@sheepfescue or anyone else:

Is this soap a good choice for killing moss? I've seen it recommended to use 0.5-2oz of dish soap in a gallon of water. But not all dish soaps are created equal, which is why I'm asking about this one specifically. I need to kill a little bit of moss in the next week or so.


----------

