# Spring 2019 - PreM time! (For some)



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Spring is finally approaching. I noticed more birds around the house and the groundhog forecasted an early spring. We had a nice taste of spring this weekend in Indy with highs in the 60F after the polar vortex last week. I managed to clean the garage from the snow dirt and prune most of the trees/shrubs.

Here is a list of friendly reminders for spring.

 Start sourcing your *PreM*. We are still early, but it is better than rushing at the end. Check this thread 
for Local sources of Herbicides, Fertilizers and such
 It is also a good time to plan for your *soil testing*.
 While you are out and about, also get your fertilizer, fungicides, *grub control* supplies ready.
 *Sharpen* your mower blades, change the oil and air filter. 
 Use these* tools* to help guide your decision on when to drop the PreM. http://www.gddtracker.net/?model=7&offset=0&zip=46037 http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature
 TLF Forsythia map/tracker - https://tlf-forsythia-tracker.netlify.com

One of my goals this year to is provide more info for homeowners that just want a nicer lawn (Tier 1). Sometimes most of the members strive for the best yard and recommend the best product for the price (eg. Prodiamine 65WDG). Finding the active ingredients online for some of these products was very hard (zoom in into the images). Most include nitrogen and other nutrients in the bag, while not ideal (Tier 2), it is still ok. Timing on the PreM is key for them to work, with early being better.

If you want a simple approach, I would suggest getting one of these PreM (crabgrass preventers) from your local stores:

*Menards*
Menards Crabgrass Preventer - It uses 0.125% dithipyor. I would apply soon and then a second application of the same product in 8 weeks. Currently at $9 for 5ksqft.

*Home depot*
Vigoro Crabgrass Preventer - 1.29% Pendimethalin - It leaves some yellow stains. $18/ 5ksqft.

Scotts Crabgrass Preventer - - 1.29% Pendimethalin - It leaves some yellow stains. $25/ 5ksqft. Yes it is identical to the Vigoro for $8 more.

*Lowes*
Scotts Halt Preventer - 1.71% Pendimethalin This is one of the few without nitrogen. $18 for 5k sqft.

Sta-Green Crabgrass Preventer Crab-Ex - 0.37% Prodiamine $ 20 for 5ksqft

Walmart, Ace Hardware, Tractor Supply, Meijer, Costco, Sams Club, Fleet Farm, Rural king - They all have similar products. Look at the label for the active ingredient.

You can get these online (amazon), but you are likely paying a higher price since they factor in the shipping costs. This one from anderson is prodiamine only it is $30 for ~8k sqft. It is also a PreM only.

While you are out and buying stuff, also get your Grub Control product if you need to prevent them. I recommend Scott GrubEx - Amazon | Home depot | Lowes


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I'll add: do any raking after it unfreezes and dries out, but before putting down Pre-M.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> Spring is finally approaching. I noticed more birds around the house and the groundhog forecasted an early spring. We had a nice taste of spring this weekend in Indy with highs in the 60F after the polar vortex last week. I managed to clean the garage from the snow dirt and prune most of the trees/shrubs.
> 
> Here is a list of friendly reminders for spring.
> 
> ...


Gman
I have dimension as a preM. It's was hard to pass up, I purchased it for a really good price. This year will be the first year since purchasing my home that I will be taking care of my lawn. I had a lawn company previously taking care of it . I understand the concept of putting down the first application once the temps reach 50 degrees. Here in Massachusetts, that's around early April depending how harsh the winter is. I've read that dimension tends to wear off quicker than prodiamine. I've got plenty of dimension so wasting it, isn't really something I'm worried about. I'm obviously planning on putting it down with my spreadermate once the 50 degree strike zone hits, do you think I would have to reapply again in May to hold me over until fall overseed/Reno if I were to put it down the first app in April for example? I'm planning on hitting the Reno/glypho kick off around last week of July so that it gives me enough time to renovate and overseed the nonrenovated area as well.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+ this article has different treatments with different products, rates and timing. https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2011/PDF/15_AGRY_Patton_sequential%20apps.pdf

Since you are planning on a Reno, you don't want 90% effectiveness in August. That would mean that your seeds will fail to establish. I would focus of a single early app and post treat anything that you have to.

If you post your product info, i could try to help convert to lb of ai/ksqft.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I really appreciate the case study. I'm definitely going to read up.

Here is the product that I have exactly. I didn't get it from domyown but this is the same one

https://www.domyown.com/msds/Dimension_2EW1u_Label.pdf


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I've read that dimension tends to wear off quicker than prodiamine. I've got plenty of dimension so wasting it, isn't really something I'm worried about. I'm obviously planning on putting it down with my spreadermate once the 50 degree strike zone hits, do you think I would have to reapply again in May to hold me over until fall overseed/Reno if I were to put it down the first app in April for example? I'm planning on hitting the Reno/glypho kick off around last week of July so that it gives me enough time to renovate and overseed the nonrenovated area as well.


Yeah, Dimension's advantage is early post emergence action. Prodiamine's is a longer duration.

You can do the rate I do of Dimension in mid April, or you can split it into two.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Green said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > I've read that dimension tends to wear off quicker than prodiamine. I've got plenty of dimension so wasting it, isn't really something I'm worried about. I'm obviously planning on putting it down with my spreadermate once the 50 degree strike zone hits, do you think I would have to reapply again in May to hold me over until fall overseed/Reno if I were to put it down the first app in April for example? I'm planning on hitting the Reno/glypho kick off around last week of July so that it gives me enough time to renovate and overseed the nonrenovated area as well.
> ...


I'm curious, what has been your 1 time rate and split rate?


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

Soil temp hit 61 today according to greencast at my location. It has since dropped down to about 50. I assume we need some sustained temps above 55 for germination to start right? The 24 hour average is still down in the 40's.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I read spreader in your post and assumed it was granular. I just noticed you used spreademate.

Dimension 2EW
0.5lb of ai/acre rate = 2 pints of this product/acre = 0.73oz of this product /ksqft

0.25lb of ai/acre rate = 1 pint of this product/acre = 0.37oz of this product /ksqft.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> I read spreader in your post and assumed it was granular. I just noticed you used spreademate.
> 
> Dimension 2EW
> 0.5lb of ai/acre rate = 2 pints of this product/acre = 0.73oz of this product /ksqft
> ...


Thanks Gman. I may just get down 1 app when the time comes this spring. I'm not exactly experienced at splitting a preM and I am pretty lucky to have a fairly week free lawn. I get hit nutsedge, once in a while but nothing that sedgehammer can't knock down. What do you think? Any advantage of 1 full strength app vs split?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@jjepeto a few day above 50F is not the same as a sustained average. Michigan State University keeps the ggd tracker website. What they are tracking is the number of days the temperature is above 32F and adding the difference. They developed (I think dr. Frank) a model that says, after x number of grow degree days, it is likely for crabgrass to germinate. The post their tables and the past years historical timeframe for their area.

I normally apply 2nd to 3rd week of March in Indianapolis. Could it be sooner this year? If the weather keeps being this nice, it might be a week or so sooner than historical. I doubt we will have this nice weather for the remaining on the winter.

Maybe I over explained. In short, I think it is too soon. Wait for a sustained soil temps above 50F or the forsythia.

This article might explain this better than I did.https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/timing_crabgrass_pre_emergence_applications


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+ I would do 1 application at the 0.25lb ai/acre rate if you are planning to overseed. Lower if you are planning to renovate.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> ...


Most recently, 2 apps of roughly 0.1 lb AI/Acre, in otherwords: 2 apps of 2 lbs/M of 0.15% granular, about 5 weeks apart.

Now I just combine them into one, so they wear off slightly faster and don't mess with seeding. I suppose I could cut back slightly on the second split app, though.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ I would do 1 application at the 0.25lb ai/acre rate if you are planning to overseed. Lower if you are planning to renovate.


Sorry I suck at math. In terms of liquid application amount, what would that come out to be per 1k sq ft or say per gallon?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Sorry I suck at math. In terms of liquid application amount, what would that come out to be per 1k sq ft or say per gallon?


0.25lb of ai/acre rate = 1 pint of this product/acre = 0.37oz of this product /ksqft.

Mix the 0.37oz of this product with 1 gallon of carrier (or whatever qty of water you need to cover 1ksqft).


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

g-man said:


> Spring is finally approaching. I noticed more birds around the house and the groundhog forecasted an early spring. We had a nice taste of spring this weekend in Indy with highs in the 60F after the polar vortex last week. I managed to clean the garage from the snow dirt and prune most of the trees/shrubs.
> 
> Here is a list of friendly reminders for spring.
> 
> ...


Timely reminder @g-man. :thumbsup: the season is getting close and man am I getting the itch to get outside!


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry I suck at math. In terms of liquid application amount, what would that come out to be per 1k sq ft or say per gallon?
> ...


Much appreciated sir


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Does anyone have experiences using preM with any of the GCF products or FEature?

Better yet, what are other products that can be used in conjunction with PreM, without impeding the effectiveness of the PreM?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I normally just do prem and water it in.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Some bad news. It seems like winter wants to stick around for a bit longer. This is the 8-14 day outlook temp map (dynamic, so it updates every day).










GDD tracker is up and running, but it is still too early for PreM for us.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

g-man said:


> Some bad news. It seems like winter wants to stick around for a bit longer. This is the 8-14 day outlook temp map (dynamic, so it updates every day).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That map is depressing.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Congrats on becoming a moderator @Pete1313. :thumbup:


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Thanks @SNOWBOB11!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

PreM time is here. Thegrassfactor shared in youtube that in the TN area forsythia has flowered. GDDtracker has a few areas in the green (VA and KY). Therefore start making plans based on your area (sorry North Dakota at least 1.5months). Error in the side of early instead of late.



Also, start think of preventive grub control (Scott's Grubex).


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> PreM time is here. Thegrassfactor shared in youtube that in the TN area forsythia has flowered. GDDtracker has a few areas in the green (VA and KY). Therefore start making plans based on your area (sorry North Dakota at least 1.5months). Error in the side of early instead of late.
> 
> 
> 
> Also, start think of preventive grub control (Scott's Grubex).


This is a good nudge in the right direction for those of us who are "newish" at this and nervous about the timings of everything.

I'm smack in the middle of Kansas.
If I'm mixing Dimension and Gallery this spring, would now be an okay time to apply?

I may need to do some seeding this fall, and I'm nervous about my app lasting too long.

Thinking about doing the max rate of both of those, for maximum control, I guess.


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

I wish GDD tracker worked for us in the south. Maybe a southern turfgrass school can make a similar tool.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@craigdt I don't know about gallery too much. Prodiamine is enough for me.

I would not recommend max annual rates. You get better control with split apps (now and in 6 weeks) at half rates.

Enter your ZIP code into the www.gddtracker.net and it will show you when it is early, optimal, late.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@jjepeto email them and ask for it. You could also email Bill Kreuser to add it to the greenkeeperapp too.


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

g-man said:


> @jjepeto email them and ask for it. You could also email Bill Kreuser to add it to the greenkeeperapp too.


I'll email them and see what they say. http://www.gddtracker.net/premium-upgrade


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

g-man said:


> @craigdt I don't know about gallery too much. Prodiamine is enough for me.
> 
> I would not recommend max annual rates. You get better control with split apps (now and in 6 weeks) at half rates.
> 
> Enter your ZIP code into the www.gddtracker.net and it will show you when it is early, optimal, late.


I was not necessarily meaning max annual rates... just trying to figure which program to use. 
I have "tall" fescue, but its had a lot of weed pressure and its not what I would consider thick.

I'm thinking program C


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## bmitch05 (Oct 29, 2018)

Spring is finally starting to peek around the corner in STL so I had the itch to get out in the lawn on a 45* Monday night. I strapped on the brand new FZ backpack sprayer that has been sitting in my home office for months - mixed up an AIR-8 and Bifen cocktail and sprayed after the kids went to bed. I forgot how great it feels to be back in the lawn after a HARSH winter.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@craigdt per this report, I would do treatment 11 based on your product. This is two applications at 0.25lb of ai/acre rate. From your table, it is two plan A transition zone. One soon and one in 6 weeks.

https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2011/PDF/15_AGRY_Patton_sequential%20apps.pdf

PS. Treatment 19 would be plan C (single application at 0.5ai/acre). Treatment 12 would be a single application of plan A (0.25ai/acre).


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

craigdt said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > PreM time is here. Thegrassfactor shared in youtube that in the TN area forsythia has flowered. GDDtracker has a few areas in the green (VA and KY). Therefore start making plans based on your area (sorry North Dakota at least 1.5months). Error in the side of early instead of late.
> ...


I am completely new at this.  Actually this will be my first time, so let me tell you my situation and see if I'm doing this right. I live in Virginia, and we have a slight chance of showers at 3AM, and tomorrow scattered storms.



Lastnight I picked up some supplies; *Virgoro Crabgrass Preventer, Roundup For Lawns (Concentrate and RTU), Scott's Wizz and a 1 Gal. Sprayer*.

In the Weed ID thread we discussed killing my current weeds with the sprayer. However, since it's supposed to rain, and the prem apparently works better with water, would tonight be a good night to do it?

Then I suppose over the weekend I can blanket spray my lawn with the Roundup?

I'm honestly really excited!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I personally don't like to use rain unless I'm sure it is a very light rain (less than 0.5in). Too much rain or too fast leads to runoff, thus wasted product. I would wait after the rains and then use a sprinkler to water it in.


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

g-man said:


> I personally don't like to use rain unless I'm sure it is a very light rain (less than 0.5in). Too much rain or too fast leads to runoff, thus wasted product. I would wait after the rains and then use a sprinkler to water it in.


I understand. The forecast graph (which is a pretty useful tool imo) says ~0.03in of rain, but i'm concerned it might be too much at once. Precipitation at 80% and "chance" of thunder in the afternoon.



I know i'm not supposed to apply granules while it's wet, so I'll probably do it this weekend. I'll blanket spray with the herbicide tonight since the instructions say it's "Safe from rain after 3 hours".

Also, this is from https://www.weather.gov
Click on your region > Hour by Hour Forcast > Select City/Location
Then uncheck / check the things you want to display.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

jjepeto said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > @jjepeto email them and ask for it. You could also email Bill Kreuser to add it to the greenkeeperapp too.
> ...


Ugh, I didn't see last last disclaimer about southern transition zone (Richmond, VA area here) not being all that accurate & was planning to lay down my Pre_M this evening before tomorrow's rain.

Might just do a split app like g-man suggested & do the 2nd half 6 weeks down the line.


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

rockinmylawn said:


> Ugh, I didn't see last last disclaimer about southern transition zone (Richmond, VA area here) not being all that accurate & was planning to lay down my Pre_M this evening before tomorrow's rain.
> 
> Might just do a split app like g-man suggested & do the 2nd half 6 weeks down the line.


Hey, another RVA member! I was going to apply my pre_m tonight as well, but after some more research I believe you're supposed to wait 2 - 3 days after application to water it?

So instead I think i'm just going to blanket spray some herbicide (Roundup for Lawns), and do the pre_m this weekend.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

bullet said:


> rockinmylawn said:
> 
> 
> > Ugh, I didn't see last last disclaimer about southern transition zone (Richmond, VA area here) not being all that accurate & was planning to lay down my Pre_M this evening before tomorrow's rain.
> ...


Hey bullet, fellow RVA-er -
My Pre-M (prodiamine 65 WDG)says:

"4. Is most effective when the product is activated in the soil before weed seeds germinate and
within 14 days after application.
5. Is activated when the treated area receives at least 0.5 inch of irrigation or rainfall or shallow
(1 to 2 inches) mechanical incorporation"

Didn't get a chance to do it tonight so will try to hit tomorrow before the rains come.


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

rockinmylawn said:


> Hey bullet, fellow RVA-er -
> My Pre-M (prodiamine 65 WDG)says:
> 
> "4. Is most effective when the product is activated in the soil before weed seeds germinate and
> ...


Hmm I suppose it's different per brand, because I was reading instructions from Scott's Turf Builder "With Halts Crabgrass Preventer". Although, I opted to get the cheaper Vigoro brand instead (which doesn't have very good instructions). Either way I don't think it matters as long as the product ends up in the soil?

I spent all afternoon blanket spraying my lawn with herbicide. I'll probably apply the pre_m this weekend and water it down myself.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

One of my goals this year to is provide more info for homeowner that just want a nicer lawn (Tier 1). Sometimes most of the members strive for the best yard and recommend the best product for the price (eg. Prodiamine 65WDG). Finding the active ingredients online for some of these products was very hard (zoom in into the images). Most include nitrogen and other nutrients in the bag, while not ideal (Tier 2), it is still ok. Timing on the PreM is key for them to work, with early being better.

If you want a simple approach, I would suggest getting one of these PreM (crabgrass preventers) from your local stores:

*Menards*
Menards Crabgrass Preventer - It uses 0.125% dithipyor. I would apply soon and then a second application of the same product in 8 weeks. Currently at $9 for 5ksqft.

*Home depot*
Vigoro Crabgrass Preventer - 1.29% Pendimethalin - It leaves some yellow stains. $18/ 5ksqft.

Scotts Crabgrass Preventer - - 1.29% Pendimethalin - It leaves some yellow stains. $25/ 5ksqft. Yes it is identical to the Vigoro for $8 more.

*Lowes*
Scotts Halt Preventer - 1.71% Pendimethalin This is one of the few without nitrogen. $18 for 5k sqft.

Sta-Green Crabgrass Preventer Crab-Ex - 0.37% Prodiamine $ 20 for 5ksqft

Walmart, Ace Hardware, Tractor Supply, Meijer, Costco, Sams Club, Fleet Farm, Rural king - They all have similar products. Look at the label for the active ingredient.

You can get these online (amazon), but you are likely paying a higher price since they factor in the shipping costs. This one from anderson is prodiamine only it is $30 for ~8k sqft. It is also a PreM only.

While you are out and buying stuff, also get your Grub Control product if you need to prevent them. I recommend Scott GrubEx - Amazon | Home depot | Lowes


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

Wow! Thanks for all the info @g-man! I'm sure a lot of us would benefit from a (Tier 1) beginners guide.

I'm glad I picked up the Vigoro at HD instead of Scott's. I looked at the ingredients at the store and they were very identical, so you're obviously paying for the name-brand. Is it the Pendimethalin that produces the "yellow stains" or the nitrogen?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The pendimenthalin is yellow. So is prodiamine, but I havent notice it staining.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@jjepeto it seems like the lawn gods have listen to your request. The GDDtracker is showing the whole map colors with a disclaimer on top. Before it cut off at the KY/TN border. Thanks MSU.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

We should be using a tip that provides a larger droplet size since we're trying to get this into the soil correct? Glad to be back after a long winter slumber!


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## jjepeto (Jan 27, 2019)

g-man said:


> @jjepeto it seems like the lawn gods have listen to your request. The GDDtracker is showing the whole map colors with a disclaimer on top. Before it cut off at the KY/TN border. Thanks MSU.


Wow, amazing. I emailed them a few days ago letting them know it would be amazingly helpful for us southerners. Go Green, I guess.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm sure this has been talked about before, but this is my first time taking hold of my lawn. I live in Ma, we are still in the 20-30's at night, we've also been blessed with a couple days in the 40-60's, nothing that's consistent at all.

I went out yesterday to take a couple of temp readings of the soil, especially of the front, since it's in the full blown sun. I did get some readings of 50-52 degree's but again it's in the full sun.

Do you guys look for consistent 55 degree temps before jumping on the pre em? I'm shooting for end of this month/first week of April for pre em but I don't want to screw this up. I've been keeping an eye on the GDD and it's not time yet in Mass. I think it's still in southern jersey.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Use the gdd and the forsythia blooming. I think it is still early.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

g-man said:


> Use the gdd and the forsythia blooming. I think it is still early.


Thanks Gman. Will do.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

20Mar - Spring is officially here.

KY, WV, VA, south IL, south IN - make plans for PreM application and watering this weekend.


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## bullet (Mar 4, 2019)

g-man said:


> 20Mar - Spring is officially here.
> 
> KY, WV, VA, south IL, south IN - make plans for PreM application and watering this weekend.


I'm planning on doing it this weekend! Right now VA is dealing with some heavy rain, so it'll have to wait a day or two for it to dry out.

Actually, I wanted to do it last Wednesday, but the forecast kept screwing me over. :x


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## Jaung (May 19, 2018)

Just picked up 4 bags of Prodiamine :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: . 
I look like I still have to wait until the end of March.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'll be spraying dimension out of my spreadermate this year for my PreEm. I slit seeded my front lawn in Sept 2018, would it be advisable to use less than the recommended amount since the new grass is less than a year old?

I was able to mow the new lawn after germination 3-4 times before the dormancy kicked in


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Cross posting. Our very own Forsythia tracker. Thanks @gm560

Post your ZIP code when you see forsythia blooming.

https://tlf-forsythia-tracker.netlify.com/


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## wizardstephen (Sep 21, 2018)

Hi all. I renovated my lawn last August/September and have some questions about my spring plan - you can see my journal here - https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6288

I was working in the yard this weekend raking up sticks and picking up after the dogs and just taking a look at how hard the winter was on the new lawn. Overall I think I'm in good shape. There are some areas where late oak leaves fell that never got picked up until this weekend has eliminated the grass that grew below. Because of this, i'm debating throwing seed down on those areas, while still spreading pre-M in others.

My plan is to put down Lesco Crabgrass Preventer with Dimension over the lawn, but have tarps or some coverage protecting the bare-spots that i will then throw down seed onto. - https://www.homedepot.com/p/LESCO-50-lb-19-0-7-Dimension-Crabgrass-Preventer-080311/100185665.


Does anyone have experience using Lesco Crabgrass Preventer with Dimension? I've heard a lot about it, but have never used it.

Should i attempt to seed barespots this spring, or just deal with the dirt/mud all spring/summer and overseed in fall?

Also, when removing some leaves that fell late last year, i see some new bright grass. Just wondering if i should be concerned about it or not? Not sure if it's POA or if it's grass that i planted last year.

Attached are some pictures to help set expectations.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

The only real bare spots I see are along the fence near your shed. With the tree cover and fence there, it may be difficult to keep grass happy. You might want to consider making a mulch bed along that fence. If you want to give it another shot you might be able to get away with spring seeding over there since you will get some cover from the sun. Try a shade mix this time. (I would avoid the JG Shady Nooks since it has poa triv)


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm not overly concerned but I feel the need to ask. I'm up here in Ma and we've had some warmer/sunny days lately(50's during the day) according to the GDD and forsynthia's, it's not time to lay down PRE-em. I've noticed around the neighborhood where some residents have had their lawns looked after by landscapers and it seems to me they have already put down their first application of pre emergent. Am I missing something? The temps have been warm during the day but we are still in the 20-30's at night.


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I'm not overly concerned but I feel the need to ask. I'm up here in Ma and we've had some warmer/sunny days lately(50's during the day) according to the GDD and forsynthia's, it's not time to lay down PRE-em. I've noticed around the neighborhood where some residents have had their lawns looked after by landscapers and it seems to me they have already put down their first application of pre emergent. Am I missing something? The temps have been warm during the day but we are still in the 20-30's at night.


Landscapers don't usually have the luxury of waiting for the perfect temps like we can. We have one lawn to service, they have hundreds. They're likely just trying to stay ahead of the weather.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Alex1389 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not overly concerned but I feel the need to ask. I'm up here in Ma and we've had some warmer/sunny days lately(50's during the day) according to the GDD and forsynthia's, it's not time to lay down PRE-em. I've noticed around the neighborhood where some residents have had their lawns looked after by landscapers and it seems to me they have already put down their first application of pre emergent. Am I missing something? The temps have been warm during the day but we are still in the 20-30's at night.
> ...


That's what I was thinking. They must doing split apps then, no?


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Alex1389 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not overly concerned but I feel the need to ask. I'm up here in Ma and we've had some warmer/sunny days lately(50's during the day) according to the GDD and forsynthia's, it's not time to lay down PRE-em. I've noticed around the neighborhood where some residents have had their lawns looked after by landscapers and it seems to me they have already put down their first application of pre emergent. Am I missing something? The temps have been warm during the day but we are still in the 20-30's at night.
> ...


+1
More apps of fert/pest=more $, so they make sure they get them in, starting early. One indicator of whether the landscaper has a clue or not, is to watch to see if they get it in the wrong order (i.e. drop fert/PreM one week, and the next week either do a spring cleanup and blow/rake it around, or drop seed on top of the PreM).


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Chris LI said:


> Alex1389 said:
> 
> 
> > Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> ...


I didn't notice much on the order. What I did notice was the yellow tags on most lawns.
Meanwhile I think we might have broken 50 degrees today?? I'm sure they'll be back next month making the same application


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## NewEnglander (Aug 20, 2018)

Hi all, first post back out of hibernation in NH. Not quite time yet, but I'm itching to get out there.

I overseeded last fall and today picked up a bag of prodiamine to try this year because I had some nasty crabgrass last year.

I didn't think much of it until I saw the YouTube video talking about root pruning.

Should I NOT be doing a split app of prodiamine this spring because I overseeded last fall?

Any guidance is helpful. I really messed things up last spring by thinking I knew what I was doing...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm not sure what you tube video you are discussing. Can you share a link?

Root pruning is not an issue if you follow the label rates. I would do a split app.


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## NewEnglander (Aug 20, 2018)

Yes no problem it's from Matt at Grass Factor. At about the 4:50 mark.

And thank you for the advice. I won't worry about it and will stick to bag rate. This was the first I'd heard of it so wanted to make sure I'm not shooting myself in the foot.

https://youtu.be/9GquKiF2QUc


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, Matt is describing the mode of action (MOA) of prodiamine. It doesn't prevent the seed from germinating. It prevents the roots from establishing.

But the label says that it is safe after 2 mowings or 60days post germination. Your fall overseed is fine and you do want to prevent the crabgrass, so go for it at the proper time.


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## NewEnglander (Aug 20, 2018)

Thanks so much g-man!


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

I'm having a brain fart here. When we talk about doing split applications for Pre-M (specifically Dimension as Prodiamine appears to be more straightforward), are we targeting a specific amount ai/ac or just taking the label recommendations and halving them?

The Purdue study seems to suggest a .25 ai/ac rate of Dimension 2EW twice (https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2011/PDF/15_AGRY_Patton_sequential%20apps.pdf).

^^That's what I'll be doing on my lawn, but my parents are taking on their own lawn care this year and purchased 19-0-7 Lesco w/ .15% Dimension. The label recommendation was for .25lb ai/ac for 3-4 months control. Would they just split that in two applications or also target .25lb ai/ac per app 8 weeks apart?

http://cru66.cahe.wsu.edu/~picol/pdf/WA/67550.pdf


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## Rule11 (May 5, 2018)

My question for Pre-M is this. This is my first year dropping Prodiamine. I sprayed a couple weeks ago at 6 month rate.

With this barrier, can I even punch like normal or am I breaking the Pre-M barrier? If I dethatched would that break the barrier?

What about top dress and over seed if I so choose. I know I would wait 8 weeks or so but really trying to get this program figured out. Thanks all


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Alex1389 I do the 2 times 0.25ai/ac rate (treatment 11), or similar with prodiamine. I don't have a weed problem. Last year I tried a single 0.25ai/ac rate and I started to see some crabgrass. I hand pulled it.

I would do the 2x 0.25ai/ac rate on your parents house too (0.50 split into two 0.25).


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Rule11 when you say 6months rate, what is that in ai/ac rate?

Punch = aerate? Prodiamine bonds to the soil, so I would assume dethatching is fine.

If you used 6months rate, then dropping seeds in 8 weeks might not work (except for ryegrass per the label).


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## Rule11 (May 5, 2018)

g-man said:


> Rule11 when you say 6months rate, what is that in ai/ac rate?
> 
> Punch = aerate? Prodiamine bonds to the soil, so I would assume dethatching is fine.
> 
> If you used 6months rate, then dropping seeds in 8 weeks might not work (except for ryegrass per the label).


I will look at my notes this afternoon. I put 1oz of physical weight of Prodiamene in 2gallons of water for 2400K. I believe that was what I came up with for Ryegrass application.


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> @Alex1389 I do the 2 times 0.25ai/ac rate (treatment 11), or similar with prodiamine. I don't have a weed problem. Last year I tried a single 0.25ai/ac rate and I started to see some crabgrass. I hand pulled it.
> 
> I would do the 2x 0.25ai/ac rate on your parents house too (0.50 split into two 0.25).


Thanks! Just for clarification, I'll be applying granular Dimension at my parents. The bag rate for that product seems to call for .25lb ai/ac for 3-4 months coverage. I assume I just need to split that into two apps of .125lb ai/ac?

Just curious, liquid Dimension 2EW calls for .25lb ai/ac for the split rates -- why would the granular product call for less AI?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't know why the bad says that. What matters ai/ac, and not if it is from liquid or granular. I would use 2 times 0.25 from the granular.


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

@g-man thank you!


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## Rule11 (May 5, 2018)

@g-man , I was trying to remember how I came up with the Pre-M application rate. Then I remembered I used this calculator in GrassDaddy website.



If you think I should do it another way, I will recalculate next time. In HS algebra was not my strong suit. So I need some help until I understand each unique equation.

Thanks


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

So today I applied my pre-emergent. I used Lesco's 14-0-7 with .43% prodiamine at a rate of 4 LBS per 1,000 square feet. I knew it was supposed to rain today but of course it didn't just rain it freaking down poured for about 10 minutes and left standing water in parts of the yard. Do you think I'll be ok or should I apply a 2nd round of pre-em in June just to make sure. I applied enough according to the bag to be able to overseed or seed after 5 months so hadn't planned on reapplying but now I'm wondering how much got washed away. Guess another reason why I should have went the liquid route, just not brave enough to make that jump lol


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Rule11 I use this Google sheets to calculate. Grassdaddy also works.

Log sheet + GDD + Tenacity + Prodiamine


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Bumping

If you don't have PreM product at hand, you are late for most of the lower state of the cool season. ND, you still have time.


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## jayteebee (Mar 26, 2019)

I'm currently in a back and forth with my lawn care company. Really upset I didn't take the wheel this year but had so much going on with buying this house a couple months ago... anyway.

So the "plan" for my yard they initially provided me said this most recent application was going to be a liquid blanket of both pre & post-Ms. I informed them of my severe broadleaf problem and expected some serious post-m help. They came last week and put down dimension (as noted on the invoice they leave). I called in and spoke with some sales'y lady and tried explaining to her dimension doesn't kill broadleaf weeds. It's a pre-m that has "some" post-m affects on crabgrass but she pretty much called me stupid.

Am I in the wrong here?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

They will likely come back and hit it with a post later. They need to hit all the houses with the pre first before it is too late. Also, you want to apply post when the weeds are actively growing to absorb the herbicide.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Don't forget your PreM. Even if slightly late, it will help.


Extrapolating for Canada, Toronto should be in the green.


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

Has anyone used this Jonathan Green Crabgrass Plus preventer plus new seeding fertilizer? I thought this might be helpful as a pre-m, but I'm not sure if this would be a good option? Otherwise I can make a run to the SiteOne store to find something local.

https://www.jonathangreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Crabgrass-plus-New-Seeding-5M.pdf


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Wow, sidurion. I wasn't aware that they still make this one. It is similar to Tenacity, but not as good. It also last 30-45 days, I don't remember. It should not be used as a long term prem.


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## Buddy (Apr 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> Wow, sidurion. I wasn't aware that they still make this one. It is similar to Tenacity, but not as good. It also last 30-45 days, I don't remember. It should not be used as a long term prem.


Thanks for your insight, maybe I will find something else or go with a bag of Anderson's on Amazon that I saw. I'm new to Pre-M so been doing a lot of reading.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ask the guys in the home folder for their sources. Even the Lowe's will work at the first post.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@ricwilli check the first post in this thread for sources on prem.


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