# KBG Overseed into Rye



## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

So i have a blend of KBG(5# Midnight/Bewitched/Blueberry/something else) and was planning on putting it down when i totally renovate my front 1800sqft of lawn with a mix of PRG that i used in my back yard last Fall and had great success with. I have 1800sqft front and 1k sqft back yard. KBG is supposed to grow really really poorly here west of the Cascades in Oregon due to disease and our perpetual overcast weather for many months of the year but i wanted to test this theory with newer more disease/shade resistant varieties as all these studies were done in the early 2000's.

So i've come here to give two options and see what the consensus is

1) Overseed 2.7# per 1ksqft on the front yard only, adding in some PRG(amounts?). Im not looking for a KBG lawn, but would like some self repairing. Leave the back yard alone and just overseed some more PRG into it to thicken it up.

2) Overseed at 1.7# per 1ksqft on the front AND back yard(an additional 1ksqft), adding PRG to the front mix. My plan for the back was to get the grass cut low, aerate, spray with growth regulator, and throw the *** down and over it up with some peat.

Ive read PRG can totally keep other grasses from growing due to some chemicals it releases or something of the like? Curious how real this phenomenon really is. My hope is that by throwing some growth regulator on the rye that i can keep it low to give the KBG time to get going? Or is that a futile effort? Its my first year with growth regulator.

For the front i was planning on doing something like a 20KGB/80PRG by weight blend? So if i put down 1.7# per 1k i'd be doing like 8# of PRG?


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

20% KBG/ 80% PRG will most likely end up being 100% PRG. The PRG germinates and establishes way too quickly. The KBG never stands a chance


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Turfguy93 said:


> 20% KBG/ 80% PRG will most likely end up being 100% PRG. The PRG germinates and establishes way too quickly. The KBG never stands a chance


Thats what i was thinking, its interesting because most mixes you'd get at a store around here have like 10-20% KBG in them.

What would be the minimum amount? 50/50? I know ive read a study about this testing % mixes and the resulting grass over time.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Personally I think it's just a marketing scheme. If you want bluegrass your best bet is to plant 100% KBG.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

If you wanna test out the KBG theory I would plant the bluegrass and get it established. If after a couple years it performs poorly I would then overseed with PRG.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Turfguy93 said:


> Personally I think it's just a marketing scheme. If you want bluegrass your best bet is to plant 100% KBG.


Yea unfortunately that's not a risk im willing to take with everything telling me KBG grows like shit here. 
I can just see me planting KBG, it all dying off, HOA gets pissy, and im stuck paying many hundreds of dollars to sod so i dont get fined.

I may reserve this KBG for the shadiest parts of my yard...something to think about i suppose.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

I'm a huge fan of PRG anyways so I would say ditch the KBG lol


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Like others have said, your ratios are reversed. Instead of using 80% PR, you want the opposite. I would go with anywhere from 5% to 20% PR by weight, and make the rest KBG. The middle of that range is probably the optimal point...around 12.5% PR out of the total seed weight. And make sure your watering plan is tailored to the KBG to make sure it all comes up. You could even put down the KBG seed, start watering 4-5 days, and then drop the PR seed while it's still ok to walk on the seed bed, if you wanted to.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> Like others have said, your ratios are reversed. Instead of using 80% PR, you want the opposite. I would go with anywhere from 5% to 20% PR by weight, and make the rest KBG. The middle of that range is probably the optimal point...around 12.5% PR out of the total seed weight. And make sure your watering plan is tailored to the KBG to make sure it all comes up. You could even put down the KBG seed, start watering 4-5 days, and then drop the PR seed while it's still ok to walk on the seed bed, if you wanted to.


If i went with the after 4-5 days put down PR seed, could/would I roll the PR seed in? or would that damage KBG?


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## Stegs (Aug 29, 2017)

a local seed company that is near me has a blend

its 70% KBG and 30% PRG. I believe its thru turf merchants (which i believe is Oregon based)

Maybe thats something to look into.....ill try to get the name and report back.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Like others have said, your ratios are reversed. Instead of using 80% PR, you want the opposite. I would go with anywhere from 5% to 20% PR by weight, and make the rest KBG. The middle of that range is probably the optimal point...around 12.5% PR out of the total seed weight. And make sure your watering plan is tailored to the KBG to make sure it all comes up. You could even put down the KBG seed, start watering 4-5 days, and then drop the PR seed while it's still ok to walk on the seed bed, if you wanted to.
> ...


I don't know. Never tried that. I say 4-5 days, because the first roots from KBG seed often start to come out at day 6 or 7 (a few days before you start seeing green), so you don't want to be walking on it once those roots start coming out. It's a really rough average, but seems to work. Personally, I think the staggered seeding really helps prevent the KBG from getting totally dominated by the PR.

if you're going to seed both at the same time, I'd probably not go with a mix of greater than 10% PR, by weight if you want the KBG to thrive.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think the advice given is very sound. Purdue has a turf tip around the ratio of PR to KBG and it suggest avoiding anything greater than 10-20% of PR if you want some kbg.

But, the advice only works in a full Reno A successful overseed of kbg into an established lawn is hard/not probable. The current lawn shadows the new kbg and prevents it from developing. I read the idea of using Growth regulator, but I have seen anyone post that it worked.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

G-man makes a good point. If you're overseeding into an existing mixed lawn that already has PR, you're not going to want to add any more PR, except in bare spots maybe.

I have never had a 100% PR lawn, so I can't say I've ever overseeded into such. I have, however overseeded into a mostly PR lawn, which wasn't at all easy...even though the lawn was less than a year old at the time. That was back in 2012.

This past September when I did another major overseed, I put down less than 5% by weight Fiesta 4 PR seed and probably closer to 3% (the lawn already had about 30% PR in it at the time). The other 95-97% was TF and KBG seed. It's too early to tell for sure because it's not really growing yet, but the other day when I was on my hands and knees, it looked like PR made up a good amount of the grass blades. I will say that Fiesta 4 seems like one of the more aggressive TTPR cultivars, though. I added it because it was early September (was getting late in the season), and I wanted to darken the lawn color a bit (American TTPR is usually darker than anything else when mowed high).


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## ryeguy (Sep 28, 2017)

This study tried to overseed KBG into ryegrass. They did it for 3 years straight, peaking at 42 lbs/1k over the years. They also applied a PGR to the ryegrass.

It didn't work. The KBG for the most part didn't even germinate. In the cases they did, the seedlings didn't reach maturity.

The study says that PRG is extremely competitive and KBG is less competitive, so it just loses out.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

so, just curious. If you get 50/50 seed and start a new yard with bare dirt, what are the expected end results? 100% rye?

I am just wondering for my own sake and the grass I have.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I found it. Here is the percent of kbg after 2 yrs.

https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/tips/2009/08102009_grassmix.html


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

so what you are saying it that 50/50 will eventually be 100/0? maybe in a few years another reno will be in store.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm not saying. The study report found those percentages.


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> ...but i wanted to test this theory with newer more disease/shade resistant varieties...


Do a full reno with 100% KBG. Only then will you get off to a good start with KBG since that is really what you're looking to test. If it does great... you're done! Congrats. If it doesn't (thins out, for example)... then you can overseed PRG into it if you desire.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

g-man said:


> I'm not saying. The study report found those percentages.


yes, not you, the study, that is what I meant.

I guess I have to stop calling my grass 50/50. 25/75 and then each year update it...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

There are basically two options for a reno. Seed all KBG as mentioned, and overseed with PR later, or seed with 5-15% PR by weight, preferably staggering the plantings at least 4 days apart.

If anyone reading this thread is skeptical and wants another option, you could try different strategies in different areas and see which works best.

It also depends on how well each grass type does in your region. That will impact what ratios you end up with after a few years.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> Like others have said, your ratios are reversed. Instead of using 80% PR, you want the opposite. I would go with anywhere from 5% to 20% PR by weight, and make the rest KBG. The middle of that range is probably the optimal point...around 12.5% PR out of the total seed weight. And make sure your watering plan is tailored to the KBG to make sure it all comes up. You could even put down the KBG seed, start watering 4-5 days, and then drop the PR seed while it's still ok to walk on the seed bed, if you wanted to.


So I have maybe a stupid question about this.

When you say 80/20 I realize it's by weight, but what weight? If my kbg says 3-5lb per 1k and my prg says 10lbs, what do I mix? The smaller of the two? So 4# kbg and 1# prg? Or do.I.do 80% of 5lb and put 4# kbg and 20% of 10# and put 2# prg? Or something else?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> So I have maybe a stupid question about this.
> 
> When you say 80/20 I realize it's by weight, but what weight? If my kbg says 3-5lb per 1k and my prg says 10lbs, what do I mix? The smaller of the two? So 4# kbg and 1# prg? Or do.I.do 80% of 5lb and put 4# kbg and 20% of 10# and put 2# prg? Or something else?


I know...it gets kinda tricky. I get mixed up in the same way. Here's my take on it...

I wouldn't do 4# of KBG. It's just too much seed.

I might do more like 2.5# of KBG and 0.625# of PRG for a new planting. I think you'll avoid overcrowding that way. You could even back it down to like 2# KBG and 0.5# PRG for overseeding into a very sparse lawn. If it's an overseed into a lawn that's not so sparse, I'd back it down even more...just make sure the PRG weight is 25% of the KBG weight to keep the ratio.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> > So I have maybe a stupid question about this.
> ...


Ok thanks I think I'll need a better spreader, or do some are areas by hand. Currently use a drop spreader that's a bit loose in the teeth I'm worried those tiny kbg seeds will fly out way too fast even on the lowest setting


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