# Help with Soil Test (I'm up for any task)



## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

I'm hoping for some help interpreting my Logan Labs soil test. I did dig down about 6 inches, but I now know I shouldn't have…

House is in eastern MA and yard is mainly ***/TTTF mix. We moved in about 5 years ago and inherited a horrible lawn. I have spent that time dedicated to improving soil, using milo, urea winterizer, compost topdress, kelp help shampoo, weed control, and infrequent deep watering etc (sprinklers). Front looks decent, back struggles with shade (working on that, see link if desired).

I viewed Mightyquinn's post on interpreting Logan Labs tests, which made sense; however, now that I have the actual soil results, its more complex than I thought.

Clearly, I need to increase OM and will continue to mulch mow grass and leaves and topdress with compost. Thoughts on pH? Obviously, pH needs to come up, but what type of lime and how much (considering the calcium/mag issues)? I really enjoy learning and working in the yard so no recommendation is too much to consider - what jumps out at you?

Thank you all for the help. This site is absolutely amazing and friendlier than others...

If needed, for more background, please see: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.phpf=9&t=1762&p=32664&hilit=nuke#p32664


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Your link is dead.
Some basic background: The six inch samples you took. Could you be more specific? Did you use a slice of soil from the surface all the way down to the 6" depth? How many samples did you take in total (e.g. how many per thousand square feet of lawn? Where you careful not to include any surface material like fertilizer prills? What date was the soil sample taken? What treatments (approximate dates and quantity) did you apply to the soil within 6 months prior to taking the samples?
When you were diffing the samples, did you notice any horizons (any level where the soil looked different from the soil above or below)? How would you describe the soil (gritty and sandy or smooth and fine etc)?
Did you elect to use Logan Labs because you prefer to make adjustments based solely on BCSR methods or is SLAN an option you are interested in considering? Logan reports are structured for BCSR analysis and well suited to them. 
Are you willing to do the calculations and your analysis? If so, I will help guide you through the process based on SLAN (with some consideration to nutrient balancing and ratios.)
Regardless, you will want to raise your pH to improve general nutrient availability. The only method to accurately estimate (yes, an oxymoron) the needed quantity of lime is to have soil acidity measured by employing a chemical Buffer pH test. In lieu, applying lime in small quantities and re-testing pH yearly is the common method employed. We can guestimate a quantity based on soil TEC and the texture of your soil and it's something you should do ASAP.
Hope that's all not too incoherent-had oral surgery and a bit woozy due to some wonderful pain killers. :roll:


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

I'm no expert like many of the fine folks on here so take with grain of salt, but from a quick glance of soil report you need pH increase and calcium. I have used the past 3 seasons Jonathan Green Mag-i-Cal as it will accomplish both and coverage is very good. Below 5.5 pH they recommend application every other month until pH in desired range. Many local garden stores carry, as well as amazon for a little higher price.

http://www.jonathangreen.com/product/mag-i-cal-acidic-soil-food.html


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you both. Ridgerunner, I'm still learning so I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Took the sample on 2/26/18 as Boston area soil was (unusually) soft. Did this so I can get an early start in Spring.

I was very careful not to take any surface material. Last application of anything was a light urea app first week of December. Before that, Milo in early September.

Sample: Hindsight, I could have done this much better. Essentially, I dug small holes to a depth of 6" and then scraped from the wall of the holes. True depth is probably the inch of wall between 5" and 6", if that makes sense. Area is about 5,000 sq ft and I took 20 samples, pretty evenly dispersed, and then combined all of it for the actual test.

Didn't notice any major differences in soil horizon. Soil texture, ummm… hard to describe, given my limited experience with dirt. It was lightish brown (not an earthy rich black) and spongy. I guess I would say on the fine-end of the spectrum, versus being gritty.

As to "why Logan Labs?" No good answer other than I had been lurking and learning from ATY for three years. I guess I just went with what I know...

I'm more than willing to attempt the calcs and analysis. I appreciate any help or guidance in allowing me to do that. Thanks again.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

I'm afraid the description of the soil texture doesn't reveal much to clarify. 20 sample over 5000 sq ft. is excellent and should give good repeatable results. I would suggest in the future that you take a sample that includes all soil from 0 to 4" for best soil analysis for grass.
Not a problem.
Back to pH. Not much analysis to do without a Buffer pH. You do want to raise to a 6-7 pH range for better nutrient availability and turf performance and avoid possible toxicity with some nutrients. On average, acidic soils tend to be somewhat lower in pH the closer you get to the surface. So, there is some cause to believe the upper 4" of your soil is as acidic as the 5-6" layer. With a TEC of 4.98 (TEC is a measure/estimate of how much nutrient and acidity your soil is capable of holding in reserve) it shouldn't take a lot of lime to raise pH. My best guess would be 20-30 lbs/M. As we are guestimating, let's be conservative. I would suggest 20lbs/M in two 10lbs applications. One as soon as possible to get it working, the other 10lb app. in the Fall. Recommend that you apply nothing else within a week or two. You can use either a Calcitic aglime or a fast acting lime. You'll want one with a CCE as close to 90 or more as you can find. For fast acting lime, I prefer Solu-cal as they are forthcoming with their product analysis label, pure calcium carbonate, >95% 100 mesh for fineness and CCE of 91%. Mag-i-cal's analysis label isn't as complete, so it's hard to judge them. Pennington fast acting lime contains a lot (30%) of CaO which can be caustic to plants and animals.
If you would do the calculations to convert all nutrients to ppm. If the report values are already labeled ppm., no conversion or calculations needed.
Except for phosphorous all other values on LL reports are for elemental forms (e.b. elemental Ca, calcium), but they are reported as pounds per acre. Because you reported soil depth as 6", you don't need to do calculations to adjust for depth. :banana: 
To convert any value labeled lbs/acre (acre slice furrow--find definition in the FAQ section https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1088 under the heading "Calculations) divide each LL value labeled in lbs (Ca, Mg, Na etc.) by 2.
An Exception is phosphorous. LL reports phosphorous as P2O5 rather than elemental P, so first convert P2O5 to P by dividing the LL value given by 2.3. This results in lbs of P per acre. Then divide that result by 2 to convert lbs to ppm.
Post the results you calculated for each and we'll continue on.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Oh my... If I've learned one thing, it's to admit I don't know what I don't know. And, man, that math...

I greatly appreciate the help. The lime recommendations make sense and I'm actually proud that it's in line with my gut reactions before I originally posted.

As for the other math, give me some time to digest and see what I can manage. Thanks again. You're great.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Sorry. It was not my intent to overwhelm you. I have a habit to make things sound more complicated than they really are and Ware refuses to edit, simplify, and clarify all my posts. I've made some changes to my previous post. Hope they help.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Haha. No worries at all. As mentioned, I'm up for the task.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I was thinking on making an Google sheet file (Excel), that folks could enter the Logan labs values and it will then calculate the ppm. It could then even provide a low, in range or high.

It is in the thing to do later.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@g-man That would be a commendable endeavor on your part. My reservation would be the implied promotion of one lab over others. Although I can't recommend or vouch for any particular lab, I do, obviously hypocritically, have some concerns with LL reports.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

G-man, you should do that tonight. And I'll be the first test subject. Haha. Kidding, of course.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Ridgerunner, as promised, I will look into the math and report back in the next day or two.

However, in the meantime... Regarding the lime, when you say:

"be 20-30 lbs/M. As we are guestimating, let's be conservative. I would suggest 20lbs/M in two 10lbs applications."

What is the "M"? Is that meters or K (i.e., per 1000)? I'm confused. Or is this something entirely different that will make more sense after I do the ppm conversations etc?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

It's per thousand square feet. I've always used /k, but I guess M is the proper symbol, so I'm trying to change my ways.


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## 2xjtn (Nov 29, 2017)

Happy to shed some light on that soil report. I look at about 40-50 of these a year. 
Begin your soil correction by looking to the base saturations first. Ca is about 20 points low. Mg looks good. pH is low, i would aim for 6.3-6.8. Given your CEC, I would do a heavy core aeration and apply 40-50 lbs of Calpril or equivalent per 1000 sq ft. 
From there, use good quality granulars (not Scotts TB) avail thru ag centres. And dont forget about the minors (B, Mn, etc). Only needed in trace amounts, but they are important for plant processes.
Cheers


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you. I didn't forget I still need to do my math homework that Ridgerunner assigned to me...

Rather than order online like usual, I drove 15 miles to get Solu-cal today (to focus on calcium and ph). Naturally, I get home and realize I bought the Solu-cal Gypsum that was on the shelf next to the lime.

Damnit. Headed back tomorrow to exchange for the Sulo-cal lime...


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

My opinion - if you care for it

That soil is sandy with that TEC of 4.98. It will probably struggle to retain nutrients and you may have to increase watering frequency and amounts to dial it in - play around with it.

OM applications will help combat sandiness with water and nutrient retention too. Your level is low - so keep at it and build it up over time - it takes a lot lot lot of material!

pH is more of a measurement than it is a goal. A lot goes into that, but it should come up over time with what I have in mind.

The major cations are likely to blame there - they are all deficient - Ca, Mg, and K - and in a big way. You cannot safely apply enough material in MA in a single season to close the gap you have, so I wouldn't bother with trying to figure it out precisely. Apply as much as you can this year, retest next year, dial it in when you get close. You are a ways off before this plane lands.

The Phosphorus level is crazy high. Iron is in a good spot too.

So, with that all said - I'd recommend the following:

SOP (Sulfate of Potash 0-0-50) @ 2 lbs / K April when you green up, May, June, July, August
A good calcitic lime (the JG mag-i-cal is fine) @ 9 lbs / K mixed with 2 lbs / K epsom salts April, July, October. Keep it two weeks from the SOP and other fertilizer applications - Ca and K don't play nice in the sandbox together 

This will adjust your K, Ca, and Mg levels. Retest next year and see where you are - I'm betting you'll have a ways to go yet.

For Nitrogen, I'd look at urea since you don't need P (it's crazy high) and you have irrigation - plus it's a great winterizer!

I wouldn't poo-poo using Baystate - it's just you don't need the Iron / P from a strictly soil standpoint. If you like the results / price of one or the other, go for it.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you for the additional reply, Gnome. Great stuff.

I have a general "deep" follow up question I would love opinions on.

Background and as a reminder, I really only use Milogranite and Kelp Help throughout the year, urea winterizers, and have been top dressing with compost each year. This process has been religious for about three of the last five years we've been in the house. Obviously, more is needed and I'm laser-focused on that.

This is my first soil sample.

With all this in mind... How should I view my soil's natural makeup? Is this, essentially, the "natural state" of my soil. Meaning, if I pump everything into it that is recommended here etc, will it always foundamently try to revert back to the way the sample looks today?

I understand that the goal is to get it as close to perfect and then dial in to maintain it. However, I'm just trying to understand the entire situation a bit better.

I hope that makes sense... probably a better way to articulate it, but I've been biz traveling for a week and I'm beat (3rd IPA on a Wednesday lol).


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

What is natural state? The state that it will be if left alone? You have that reflected in part in this test. It will change over time naturally - and you can't really control the macro environment much to do so.

Soil isn't some static thing - it's quite dynamic.

You should view your soil's CURRENT makeup as what is reflected in tests, your geography, climate - the big picture and then the small things like nutrients - all part of the ecosystem. Can't understand one without the others. As my prof friend at Purdue would say - the soil / water / plant continuum..

Specifically, things like the TEC don't change much unless you add different soil particles or copious OM to mask the structure a bit.

You are amending the nutrient levels in the soil with the aforementioned additions.. The structure of the soil will retain them, they will interact with other things, be displaced too, moved - the natural environment will make it's own additions - things you plant may use nutrients up.

If you've been applying mostly milo in the past, it's the one thing you just don't need (now). Maybe at one point you did and it tweaked your Fe / P - who knows without historical tests.

So - the test just helped you make a much more effective use of your time and money. The turf will always need Nitrogen of course, but you are quite lacking in other areas - spend your time and money there first.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

NikeFace said:


> Thank you for the additional reply, Gnome. Great stuff.
> 
> I have a general "deep" follow up question I would love opinions on.
> 
> ...


ETA:


> the goal is to get it as close to perfect


What is perfect? The goal is for you to have the lawn you want, which requires soil that supports it. The perfect soil for YOU is one that meets YOUR objectives. Define those lawn objectives first. There's no 100% on a soil test  It's a measurement of things - it's not a measure of your satisfaction with your lawn.


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## sicride (Nov 8, 2017)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> SOP (Sulfate of Potash 0-0-50) @ 2 lbs / K April when you green up, May, June, July, August
> A good calcitic lime (the JG mag-i-cal is fine) @ 9 lbs / K mixed with 2 lbs / K epsom salts April, July, October. Keep it two weeks from the SOP and other fertilizer applications - Ca and K don't play nice in the sandbox together


I've heard this about Nitrogen and how Ca can make it volatilize more easily but not about potassium. I tried searching this recently and found no information. What does it do? I just put down 20lb/k calcitic lime and 2lb/k sulfate of potash a week later. Did I just waste both applications?


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

See, this is precisely why I asked the question. Your response is clear and helped me form a better understanding and perspective.

Also, I now understand that I need to space out the SOP and lime (CA) with epsom applications. Thank you. However, would any of these apps affect seed germination/timing of seeding?

Thanks again.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

NikeFace said:


> would any of these apps affect seed germination/timing of seeding?


Yes. Always important to put soil amendment in context of what your goals are.

If you're going to drop seed, space it out at least 2 weeks after any SOP / epsom salts / lime. Wait to apply fertilizer on new grass until the seedlings have emerged and started to tiller. It's usually several weeks after germination. This is assuming a new seeding of course.

For an established lawn overseed fertilization strategy is different.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Sorry, I guess I have another follow up question...

I would say 95% of the seeding I will be doing is true overseeding. The other 5% is due to some bare spots. Not completely bare, but very sparse established turf in those areas.

I think it's best I treat the whole thing as an overseeding project and just realize that it's likely a two-three season mission.

How would that change the wait times etc?

Thanks again. This is all extremely helpful.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

2-3 seasons for what? filling in bare spots with Perennial Ryegrass (PR)? With PR you should be able to get that done in one season - it establishes quickly.

I'd hold off on the SOP / epsom salts / lime for 2 weeks before and after overseeding PR so you make sure it works into the soil. Milorganite would be good to fertilize with at seed down, but hold off on synthetics until the new PR has emerged for a week or two. With PR, when you see a bare spot or thin area, and it's spring or fall - toss some seed out. It germinates in several days. In a matter of weeks if done right you can have it filled in nicely.

Be careful when reading other threads where people are trying to get a different cultivar like KBG to dominate an existing mixed species lawn by overseeding. Different animal. You're just trying to thicken up what you already have, and PR is fantastic for its ability to germinate and establish quickly. YOu don't have to worry about suppressing the growth of the existing turf like you do in other scenarios. If your existing turf grows and crowds out some new seedlings, it's not a big deal since you want that species to dominate anyways.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Lawn is currently a blend of KBG and PRG.

I would love to overseed with straight KBG but I'll most likely go with PRG for the overseeding. Maybe some KBG mixed in.

Except for bare spots/bad half of back yard. This troubled area of the background was the primary driver behind the soil test. Lots of shade (have pruned trees etc). Shade is mostly from neighbor's trees. I'm looking at the shade blend from Long Island Cauliflower that has a wide variety of seed for this area (I'm really interested in the mazama KBG).

That "bad area" accounts for the 5% "non-overseeding" aspect of the project. And what I think may take 2+ years to establish to my personal standards. I could definitely be wrong.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> My opinion - if you care for it
> 
> That soil is sandy with that TEC of 4.98. It will probably struggle to retain nutrients and you may have to increase watering frequency and amounts to dial it in - play around with it.
> 
> ...


@HoosierLawnGnome, I'm hoping you see this. I applied the first round of lime/salt and SOP in April as suggested. My second application of SOP is approaching.

However, I started thinking.... when you say "2 lbs of SOP/k," do you mean 2 lbs of product or 2 lbs of K per 1000ft (ie, 4 lbs of product/k)?

My first app was 2 lbs product so I'm not stressing, but I want to make sure I'm accurate going forward. Thank you.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It is 2lb of product. It yields 1lb of K2O. That's the max recommended rate.

Edit: said 1lb of K, but I meant K2O. 1lb of K2O yields 0.83lb of elemental K. I fixed it above.


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## NikeFace (Feb 14, 2018)

Awesome. Thank you very much.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

@nikeface - g man is right. Just like it says 2 lbs per k SOP. It's good stuff!


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