# Reducing Transpiration With Chitosan



## Grass Clippins

I searched the forum for Chitosan and didn't see any result so I thought I would start a post to learn more. Does anyone have experience with this stuff?

I became interested in Chitosan when @O_Poole turned me onto an Adjuvant that utilizes Chitosan in a Yucca Extract Surfactant. This Natural Adjuvant boast a few claims but the one that stuck out to me is that it can reduce transpiration by up to 50%. "Transpiration is the process by which moisture is carried through plants from roots to small pores on the underside of leaves, where it changes to vapor and is released to the atmosphere. Transpiration is essentially evaporation of water from plant leaves". This Natural Adjuvant is OII-YS and it is the source of the  GCI Natural Adjuvant , credit on this discovery goes to @O_Poole. If you don't believe it, compare the labels.

_Side note - I thought this was funny. The motto for OII-YS is "Believe the Unbelievable". In other words "Believe Something That's Unlikely to be True". I'm finding that this is the unspoken motto of most marketers in this industry._

*Objective:* To get the same or similar result for less money.

So I dug in and found a study from the University of Washington that backs up what OII-YS is claiming. In This Study they did a foliar application of chitosan (without an adjuvant) to pepper plants. It looks like they mixed 1 gram of soluble chitosan with 1 liter of water and applied weekly. They concluded that, "Foliar application of chitosan reduced water use of pepper plants by 26-43% while maintaining biomass production and yield". After reading this I've decided to recreate their study on my fescue this summer in Georgia. I obviously won't be able to post any results based on percentages but there should be a visible difference. It's still early in the planning stage but I'm thinking about a plot with eBay soluble chitosanand Yucca Extra Surfactant applied weekly. Update: these two are better deals Chitosan and Yucca Extract. The Yucca may increase the effectiveness of the chitosan and get me up to the 50% OII-YS claim. This could be a big time money saver because OII-YS is EXPENSIVE and hard to find, unless you want to get fleeced by Sneaky Pete (Edit: his prices have come down a little).

Chitosan Study Cliff Notes:

"Chitosan is a natural, biodegradable polysaccharide polymer, which serves as major structural component of the exoskeleton of crustaceans and insects"

"Chitosan induces the expression of a variety of genes involved in plant defense responses, that, in some cases, result in increased synthesis of secondary plant metabolites"

"…chitosan may influence pathways involving jasmonic acid. Jasmonates exhibit some activities similar to the plant hormone abscisic acid (ABA), which plays a key role in the regulation of water use by plants. Increased levels of ABA result in closure of stomata and reduced transpiration thus; manipulating the ABA signaling pathway offers the possibility to reduce water consumption by plants."

"Chitosan (obtained from Vanson, Inc., Redmond, WA) at a concentration of 1 g L−1 was dissolved in a 0.1% (w/w) d/l lactic acid solution. This solution was sprayed onto the plant leaves with a commercial hand-held sprayer. Control plants were treated with the lactic acid solution only, without chitosan."

"A preliminary test with different chitosan concentrations showed that 1 g L−1 was optimal to reduce evapotranspiration of the pepper plants. Smaller concentrations (0.1 g L−1 ) showed less effects; larger concentrations (10 g L−1 ) did not show enhanced effects."

"Chitosan and control solutions were applied foliarly to the pepper plants once a week with a hand-held sprayer."

"Over the 47 days of the growth-chamber study, the chitosan-treated plants used 26% less water than the control plants."

"In both the growth-chamber and the field study, the reduced water use of chitosan-treated plants did not adversely affect biomass production. Dry mat- ter of leaves and stems, and fresh matter of yield of treated plants were not statistically different from control plants."

"Water use, stomatal conductance, electron micro-scopy, and histochemical analyses demonstrate that foliar application of chitosan reduces transpiration of pepper plants through partial or full closure of stomata.'

*Surfactants That Contain Chitosan: (Added 1-11-19)*
OII-YS This seems to be THE SOURCE. They must have a patent because it seems everyone is buying from them and repacking. If you need 5 gallons or do a group buy, this is the way to go. Minimum order size is 5 gallons for $700 ($140/gallon).
Omega 100% positive this is repackaged OII-YS will a ridiculous markup. Minimum order size is 5 gallons for $1,484.50 ($297/gallon).
SBC Oasis I found this sheet but cannot find the product on their website. I called and their rep said that they also buy and repackage OII-YS. Not sure of the price but the minimum order is 5 gallons.
GCI Natural Adjuvant 100% positive this is repackaged OII-YS. Minimum order size 16 ounces. Pricing is as follows assuming rumored cost of $100/gallon or $0.78/oz:

16oz for $40 ($2.50/oz with a 221% markup over cost)
1 gallon for $269 ($2.10/oz with a 169% markup over cost)
2.5 gallons for $439 ( $1.37/oz with a 76% markup over cost)
5 gallons for $800 ($1.25/oz with a 60% markup over cost).

Updated Spring 2019 Price Reduction when private label was dropped:
16oz for $45 ($2.81/oz with a 260% markup over cost)
32oz for $83 ($2.59/oz with a 232% markup over cost)
1 gallon for $170 ($1.33/oz with a 71% markup over cost)
2.5 gallons for $390 ( $1.22/oz with a 56% markup over cost)
5 gallons for $750 ($1.17/oz with a 50% markup over cost).


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## Grass Clippins

GA_Fescue_Man said:


> O_Poole said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Grass Clippins said:
> 
> 
> 
> @O_Poole I Googled "THE Natural Adjuvant" but it only brings up the GCI site. Google may put that at the top for me because I have been to his site multiple time. Would you mind to copy and paste a link? I'm curious to see the source of this $1.25/ounce magic. Tournament Ready is $0.57/ounce (price comparison is based on 5 gallon pricing, assuming someone is willing to pay $800 for 5 gallons of Natural Adjuvant).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes sir it's on the 2nd page.. PM sent.. I did pick up 5 gallons at 600.00 shipped going to try it this year on my 3 acres of Tall Fescue..
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey Guys. Have you seen this product (https://www.plantfoodco.com/golf-professional-turf/products/biostimulants/omega/)? It seems like the closest thing to the GCI/O2YS adjuvant. Just wondering if anyone has used it and the price on it? It's a pro product, so I'm not sure how hard it is for DIY guy to get a hold of it.
Click to expand...

That's the same thing! You found it.

Yesterday I was trying to swing a deal with Mark at OII-YS. We were talking about pricing and he was telling me about a vendor in Cranberry NJ. He wouldn't tell me who it is but I think you just found them.

I also called  Soil Basics and asked about  SBC Oasis. It's also a Chitosan & Yucca Surfactant. I brought up OII-YS as a comparison and the lady said they purchase from them as well. I got excited and started with my questions. She's is going to have their agronomist call me ...I'm a little nervous, better get my notes together :|


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## Green

Great post!


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## craigdt

Really neat.

How would this product "interface" with a PGR program?

Is it similar in function to the Lesco Moisture Manager/Hydretain product?


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## Grass Clippins

@craigdt PGR Interference? That's a fine question, I'll ask the agronomist when/if he calls.

In the study they say chitosan didn't effect growth or yield. While it's appears they work in different ways the thing that they have in common is Abscisic acid (ABA). Chitosan increased the level of ABA to close the stomata and reduce transpiration. I'm not sure what PGR do the ABA. I'm sure plants have stomata for a reason so I I'm only looking to use chitosan when it gets extremely hot (June, July & August). This also happens to be the time when grows slows naturally due to stress. I think adjuvants with chitosan are used a lot in the golf industry where they also use PGR. This would make for a good @thegrassfactor video.

Is it similar in function to the Lesco Moisture Manager/Hydretain product? That is actually a question I have written down to ask the agronomist. Chitosan is foliar application which would be different than Hydretain which is soil applied. The Yucca Surfactant could possibly be compared to Hydretain. It appears that Hydretain retains water in the root zone while Chitosan closes the stomata (AKA The back door). Using them together seems like a good one-two punch. Having the stomata wide open in July seems like running the AC in the house with the windows open.


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## Grass Clippins

@Green Thank you. I'll go to great lengths to save money and this stuff is pretty interesting.


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## craigdt

I emailed a distributor in Kansas City about pricing for the Plant Food Co Omega Biopolymer product and they said:

2 x 2.5 gallon case: $1,484.50

Who wants to do a split? :lol:

Sounds like a prime candidate for a DIY solution


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## Rig2

I am totally interested in this. Would this help with summer stress from high temperatures? My grass gets roasted in the summer and usually starts to check out in the full sun all day spots. Many consecutive 100+ days. I am willing to try anything to help with summer stress. Heavy watering during the summer is usually frowned upon in my hood.

Was looking into the GCI adjuvant but he doesn't sell to California. He claims it does wonders for grass by itself and helps the efficiency of everything else he sprays. It is expensive but according to GCI turf one ounce covers 2500 square feet. But it also needs some citric acid to bring the ph to a 5 before spraying and mixing..

If one was to make his own juice with the chitosan and yucca extracts what would be the mix ratios? Or would you need to mix and see how it acts? Would you need to lower the ph as GCI does with his adjuvant? I read the study but don't really understand it besides 1gram to 1 liter good. More or less not really beneficial.


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## Grass Clippins

@craigdt Good Lord! That's outrageous.

I bought 500 grams of chitosan yesterday off Ebay for $65. In the study they mixed 1 gram of chitosan with 1 gram of water. So that ought to get me 132 gallons...if I do 1 gallon/1,000 square feet weekly that should do me for 8 weeks.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 In the study, it looks like, they dissolved 1 gram of chitosan with "0.1% (w/w) d/l lactic acid solution". They then mixed that with 1 litter of water and sprayed the top and bottom of the pepper leaves. I still need to figure out how much lactic acid that is but I believe the addition of lactic acid might be why it's necessary to adjust the ph when/if you mix it with an adjuvant. They didn't use an adjuvant in the study so maybe that's why they didn't adjust the ph. It's a foliar application so my application rate will be geared toward full foliar coverage and I feel comfortable with 1 gal/1000 sq ft or 3.8 L/1000 sq ft.

If I do add a yucca adjuvant, I will follow the mixing instructions for whichever yucca product I purchase. For example, the yucca extract say to mix 1-5 grams of spray dried yucca with 1 gallon of water. So I would probably mix that up first and then add the dissolve chitosan next. In that example, each gallon of water would have 1-5 grams of yucca extract and 3.8 grams of chitosan. It looks like yucca extract is around half the price of chitosan, mixing it together might bring down the cost and yield the same results.

I was researching this this yucca extract and it looks yucca extract is pretty popular with the hydroponic crowd. They call it "Wet Betty" :lol: I may have to jump on a hydroponics forum and see what the dope boys are saying about it.


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## GA_Fescue_Man

@Grass Clippins Thanks so much for the thread. We appreciate it. I'm hoping to learn as much as I can about this. I feel you with the price of this stuff and the prices with other products. If your not a professional or buy it bulk, it's hard for guys to get a fair shake, price wise.

@Rig2 I have a 2.5 gallon jug of the GCI ajuvant that I will be using this year for my fescue in GA. I used a gallon of it last year as well. The summer heat and humidity down here is brutal on cool season grasses. From my phone conversations and email interactions with Pete, and my basic understanding of this, the adjuvant helps the effectiveness of herbicides, fungicides, etc. It allows me to use the low rate on my herbicides (Triplet SF, Speed Zone, etc.) and fungicides (Azoxystrobin, Propiconizole, etc.). Pete also mentioned that it will help the plant better handle heat stress during the summer, as well as helping the turf to hold water better and for longer periods of time.


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## GA_Fescue_Man

@craigdt By the way, on the Plant Food Company product, my wife would probably throw me out the house if I told her I was about to spend $1500 on 5 gallons of stuff for the grass.  That's steep!


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## GA_Fescue_Man

I found a study from 2016 about "Chitosan Effects on Plant Systems". Place the link in a browser and it will download the PDF of the study. It was conducted by a university in Milan, Italy.

https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/17/7/996/pdf


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## Grass Clippins

@GA_Fescue_Man I just added the follow info to the opening post.

*Surfactants That Contain Chitosan (Added 1-11-19)*
OII-YS This seems to be THE SOURCE. They must have a patent because it seems everyone is buying from them and repacking. If you need 5 gallons or do a group buy, this is the way to go. Minimum order size is 5 gallons for $700 ($140/gallon).
Omega 100% positive this is repackaged OII-YS will a ridiculous markup. Minimum order size is 5 gallons for $1,484.50 ($297/gallon).
SBC Oasis I found this sheet but cannot find the product on their website. I called and their rep said that they also buy and repackage OII-YS. Not sure of the price but the minimum order is 5 gallons.
GCI Natural Adjuvant 100% positive this is repackaged OII-YS. Minimum order size 16 ounces. Pricing is as follows assuming rumored cost of $100/gallon:
16oz for $40 (220% markup over cost)
1 gallon for $269 (169% markup over cost)
2.5 gallons for $439 ( 75.6% markup over cost)
5 gallons for $800 (60% markup over cost).


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## Grass Clippins

GA_Fescue_Man said:


> I found a study from 2016 about "Chitosan Effects on Plant Systems". Place the link in a browser and it will download the PDF of the study. It was conducted by a university in Milan, Italy.
> 
> https://www.mdpi.com/1422-0067/17/7/996/pdf


@GA_Fescue_Man


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## GA_Fescue_Man

Yeah man! In the paper, this comment was interesting.

"In rice (Oryza sativa) CHT showed marked antifungal activity against Rhizoctonia solani, the rice sheath blight pathogen [60]."

If used over time, I wonder how this translates over to brown patch in fescue?


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## Grass Clippins

@GA_Fescue_Man Yep, I saw that as well. I remember reading that pathogens are spread in three ways, one of which is through the stomata. That's probably why they say you can use a reduced rate of azoxystrobin with OII-YS. This is my uninformed & uneducated opinion...but I don't know if I would want to fight disease by closing the stomata throughout the entire growing season by using this in a season long adjuvant like GCI does. Nature put those stomata there for a reason. I would be more inclined to only use it in the peak of the summer to increase water retention and reduce transpiration. A good fungicide program, without chitosan, might work out better in the long run for disease in turf. Most of the testimonies on the OII-YS website are agricultural. They grow a crop, maximize harvest, let it die and then repeat season after season. Turf would be different in that you don't want to reseed every year, we're looking at long term sustainability. Giving it some disease exposure might help it to build defenses. I'm no Matt Martin though, I'm probably overthinking this...as usual.


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## craigdt

Grass Clippins said:


> In the study, it looks like, they dissolved 1 gram of chitosan with "0.1% (w/w) d/l lactic acid solution". They then mixed that with 1 litter of water and sprayed the top and bottom of the pepper leaves. I still need to figure out how much lactic acid that is but I believe the addition of lactic acid might be why it's necessary to adjust the ph when/if you mix it with an adjuvant. They didn't use an adjuvant in the study so maybe that's why they didn't adjust the ph. It's a foliar application so my application rate will be geared toward full foliar coverage and I feel comfortable with 1 gal/1000 sq ft or 3.8 L/1000 sq ft.
> 
> If I do add a yucca adjuvant, I will follow the mixing instructions for whichever yucca product I purchase. For example, the yucca extract say to mix 1-5 grams of spray dried yucca with 1 gallon of water. So I would probably mix that up first and then add the dissolve chitosan next. In that example, each gallon of water would have 1-5 grams of yucca extract and 3.8 grams of chitosan. It looks like yucca extract is around half the price of chitosan, mixing it together might bring down the cost and yield the same results.
> 
> I was researching this this yucca extract and it looks yucca extract is pretty popular with the hydroponic crowd. They call it "Wet Betty" :lol: I may have to jump on a hydroponics forum and see what the dope boys are saying about it.


I like where you are going- sounds like you are on the track to mix up your own version of this?

If so- keep us posted on your recipe. I think a lot of us would like to try this route :thumbup:


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## Rig2

Reading up on this chitosan and wow that stuff is amazing. All the scientific papers written on it about their uses are really dry. But what I did understand before I lost interest or fell asleep is that it has so many uses. More research is needed to find out all the potential uses for it. Most of the research is towards medical and food uses. Didn't find any specific to lawns. A lot had to do with plants and plant diseases and how chitosan helps with disease resistance and needing less water.

What I seen common between all the study formulations was that an acid was always referenced with the chitosan amount. Usually a 1% or 1.5% and usually a latic acid. When I was able to find what the acid was for, it never said but always showed between 5-6 ph on the chitosan specs. And one journal page ( apsjournals.apsnet.org )states "Chitosan is a natural biopolymer that must be dissolved in an acid solution to activate its antimicrobial and eliciting properties"

So after that rabbit hole, I do believe that the natural adjuvants listed above do have chitosan in their solutions and you do need to lower the ph to activate the chitosan.

I know gci natural adjuvant starter comes with a ph meter and citric acid to lower the ph. He won't tell you what the adjuvant is made of but tells you freely that the citric acid is cheap and you can get it anywhere. But you need to lower the ph to "activate" it. Because of this I believe his adjuvant has some, if not the main ingredient, chitosan. I also think it has also Yucca Extract Surfactant in it because the talks about it being a "sticker" as most yucca is advertised as.

Full disclosure, I did buy the gci academy cool season guide. His adjuvant isn't sold in Cali where I live and I would like to reap the benifts he claims it does on heat stress. This thread on reducing transpiration with chitosan got me thinking we could maybe come up with our own possible cocktail. I have bought the chitosan powder off of the eBay link above. I also bought some of the "wetty Betty" yucca powder. Now I am looking into getting some lactic acid as that is what the studies used.

Not sure on what amounts of each product I'll use. But I have some grow lights and am thinking of growing some grass indoors for the winter/spring and trying different amounts and seeing what results are best. That way it is more control than my yard. When I get there I'll post my journey here.

Would like to thank @Grass Clippins and @GA_Fescue_Man on getting this information out there for the guys who can't afford to get ripped off by people and corporations that won't share information or sell at reasonable prices. Yucca and chitosan as dirt cheap. I have spent 40 bucks on chitosan that can make over 80 gallons and 25 on yucca that can make over 50 gallons. Those guys are ripping us off. And I ain't down with that.


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## craigdt

Awesome. What a great idea.

Looks like you can get citric acid in the canning section of Walmart for $3 or the soap making section at Hobby Lobby for $6.

I guess you pour some into your mixture until it reaches the desired ph level?


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 Heck yeah brother, sounds like we're running the same experiment. I 100% promise you that GCI Natural Adjuvant is OII-YS, which is a chitosan laced yucca surfactant. The problem is that OII-YS is unregulated so it's difficult to figure out the exact percentages. I think I found a work around for that... Thankfully the Washington State University Study said that 1g/liter was the sweet spot, any more was ineffective. My theory is that OII-YS adds the yucca surfactant to cut down on the cost, and I'm sure it helps with marketing. Not sure if you notice but the chitosan is more expensive than the yucca extract and they do a lot of the same thing.

I'm still trying to figure out which acid to use and what it does. I was thinking that lactic acid was used to help dissolve the chitosan, but maybe it's used to activate it. Google says that the ph of lactic acid is 2.4.This person appears to be asking the same question but I don't understand the answer they get.


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## Rig2

I don't really know what acid to use either. All the studies I read refer to latic acid. One study used like 15 different acids but mainly talked about the lactic acid test results. In that study they did have the grapes in just the 5.6 ph water and it did not control or prevent the mold. But no study ever referred to using only chitosan without an acidic solution as a control.

I am no scientist and don't really comprehend the deep information in these studies. I just see things that are common among them all. A lot of the studies I looked at are on food or food plants. And reading on latic acid on the Wikipedia, it states that latic acid is an approved food additive. It is also way cheap and easy to get food grade sterile lactic acid from my googling around. So I assume that the studies use lactic acid because of this. Maybe all the universities and study sites have an over abundance of lactic acid from other departments studies?

From what I gather, chitosan mainly from crab and shrimp shells doesn't dissolve in water by itself. When used by itself it is mainly used as a natural flocculant. Powdered Chitosan needs an acidic solution for it to become water soluble and using lactic acid is the most common. A lot of the studies I read don't say why they use lactic acid. Maybe when it was first starting to be researched in the late 80s they used it because it works and is food approved?

Not sure if the acid activates it or it just needs to be dissolved to a molecular level so it can absorbed by the plants. All I understand is that it is always used in an ph area of ph5 or ph5.5

The OII-YS adjuvant might use citric acid because it is even cheaper than lactic acid. When you are charging through the roof for your product and you need an activaor, it can't be expensive also!

I can't find a reason why all the studies lactic acid? I Feel acid is acid. But I wouldn't drink diluted muriatic acid but I do chug orange juice and lemon water. So on the scientific level it may matter. I guess if we are throwing it down on grass it shouldn't really matter.

Since both are so cheap I am going to make my home brews with both acids. Now I just need to grow the grass and wait for the ordered ingredients. I am going to get the grow lights down tomorrow and start on the grass. Haven't been this excited to grow grass indoors since I grew "medicinal grass."


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## craigdt

So a potential recipe would look like this:

In sprayer, add 1 gallon water per 1K sq ft.
Add enough citric acid to bring the water to 3.5-5.5 pH
Add Chitosan powder: 3.8 gram/1K Sq ft
Add Yucca powder: 1 gram/1K Sq ft (Liquid yucca: .20oz)

"Apply just prior to the onset of stress conditions and repeat every 14 - 28 days"

Is that pretty close to what everyone thinks from looking at the various sources?
I chose citric acid, because it seems cheap and readily available. I think the key is just to get the pH to the proper level.

Another question I have is:
Could one mix a concentrate of chitosan, yucca extract, and water and store it until needed, then activate it with the proper pH? 
Certainly seems what the expensive, premixed products are...


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## Scagfreedom48z+

If you watch GCI turf videos, Citric acid is used to drop the PH below 5 in order for the natural adjuvant to work effectively.


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## Grass Clippins

Alright....I'm a man on a mission.

We're not able to find an analysis on the OII-YS, Oasis or GCI Natural Adjuvant but I was able to find one for SBC Oasis. SBC Oasis was made by Soil Basics, but I don't see it on their website anymore. Chances are that if it's not the same as OII-YS, then it extremely close. Analysis states:

Yucca Plant Extract & Chitosan..................................8%
Constituents ineffective as spray adjuvants...92%

*According to the Plant Food Company Omega Label, the weight is 9 pounds per gallon and the high end application rate of 1.46 fluid ounce per 1,000 square feet. We'll go with the high rate so that it's easier to figure out how much water to use, which is 2 gallons per 1,000 square feet, according to the Omega Label.

9 fluid lbs / 128 fluid oz = .0703125 fluid lbs/fluid oz
.0703125 fluid lbs per fluid oz * 8% = .005625 fluid lbs per fluid oz
.005625 fluid lbs per fluid oz * 1.46 ounce per 1,000 square foot application rate = .0082125 fluid lbs per fluid oz 
.0082125 fluid lbs = .1314 fluid oz = 3.3113 grams

Please check my math but I believe that means we have 3.3113 grams of yucca plant extract & chitosan going down every 1,000 square feet. But how much of that is yucca extract and how much is chitosan?

Remember that the study stated they had best results with 1 gram of chitosan mixed with 1 litter of water. The Omega label says to apply 1.46 oz of Omega with 2 gallons of water per 1,000 square foot. 2 gallons of water equals 7.57 liters of water, which would equal 7.57 grams of Ebay Chitosan (this doesn't include yucca extract). 2 gallons of water per 1,000 square feet seems a little excessive for a foliar application so if we back it down to 1 gallon of water per 1,000 square feet that would equal 3.79 liters of water, which would equal 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan. Keep in mind that I ran the numbers based on the Omega foliar high rate.

Adding an Ebay Yucca Extract Surfactant may allow use to use less than 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan while yielding the same results. I think if we fiddle with that we might get somewhere.

For example would using 3.79 grams of Ebay Chitosan per 1,000 square foot be the same as running 1.89 grams of Ebay Chitosan with 1.89 grams of Ebay Yucca Extract Surfactant? This would reduce the cost even further and mimic OII-YS.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 I'm pretty sure you're right about acids. They both do the same thing but a packet of powder is easier to use than a dropper of lactic acid. I might lean towards lactic acid just to feel like a scientist. I'm glad to hear it dissolves in water and I am on board with believing the ph has to be lower to activate the magic. I wasn't kidding about going to the hydro forums to get chitosan tips...some of those dope growers are brilliant.

@craigdt :lol: How in the world did we come up with numbers so close? 3.79 vs 3.80! You must have rounded up. My 3.79 number was if I ran straight chitosan, no yucca. As far as storing goes I think you want to use it pretty quickly. I remember seeing a chitosan acetate on the Vanson website that states:

_"ChitoVan CA is a clear viscous solution that is very stable (18-month or greater shelf life) in comparison to other flocculents that may degrade rapidly."_

This stuff must be special and last longer premixed but the not-so-special stuff "degrades quickly".

@Scagfreedom48z+ I went back and watched it again, thank you. I also noticed that advice on the OII-YS, Omega and SBC Oasis labels. All said 5.5 or lower.


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## Rig2

I am thinking of using the the potential recipe @craigdt put up as one test brew. That would be the control brew since that is what most seems is in the OII-YS.

Another was going to be 
5g chitosan
5g yucca
Acid- 
One brew with latic and one with citric

Was going to do 
1 5g yucca only

1 5g chitosan w/latic only

And one grass only with no adjuvant

I am going a little heavy on both products because I am going to use spray bottles. Not sure how well the spray mist will cover the test grass. Need to test that and may adjust accordingly.

I just need to decide on the size of the test grass and planter pots. Will be on tall fescue grass.
I was thinking of 8" or 10" round pots. If my indoor grass doesn't grow too well before June I can just poach a section of grass from my yard. I want to do the test in pots so I can control the stress evenly on the grass.


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## Rig2

@Grass Clippins when I searched for the O2YS msds it came up with the same 8% yucca and chitosan and 92% ineffective spray adjuvant. On the label it states 1-4 pints for minimum 20 gallons then 1-4 pints per acre. Not sure on the weights though.

I do know on food ingredients labels the ingredients are labels from most to least. The O2YS has yucca first and chitosan second. So it may be a 5% yucca 3% chitosan if they follow FDA regulation. Not sure how well overpriced adjuvant is regulated.

The math you did looks good to me but my mathematics and scientifics are on the same low levels. When you broke it down to those measurements they are really stiffing us on the pricing now that we know what the price of the ingredients are.


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## craigdt

Anybody else get their supplies ready?


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## Grass Clippins

@craigdt Nice! My Chitosan left New Delhi on the 12th and arrived in Frankford, Germany on the 17th...who knows when it will make it to me. Where did you get the Yucca?


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## Grass Clippins

@craigdt I may bite the bullet and get a pound of Yuca from Kelp4Less. It's considerably more expensive than other extracts but it's still cheap for what you get, 7 cents/#ft2 vs. 40 cents/#ft2. Found this video on Yucca. When I called I actually spoke to this guy, they definitely sell to the connoisseur but at least you know what you're getting. As we suspected it looks like the Yucca pulls in the moisture and the Chitosan shuts the door so it cannot escape.


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## j4c11

Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.


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## Grass Clippins

@j4c11 Yeah... I wish there was a better study to pull from but it's an inexpensive thing to test and worth it in my opinion. With Fescue in GA we're looking at almost certain death unless you want to run the water bill up. And IF it works it will help a lot of people from getting "Denny'd" into buying OII-YS. I plan to only test it when the temps go way up.


----------



## craigdt

j4c11 said:


> Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.


Just to clarify, you are basically saying the chitosan cocktail is facing more difficult conditions, and therefore results might not be as impressive as results in the study?


----------



## Grass Clippins

craigdt said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hold on boys. The growth chamber study says : "Average air temperature was 20◦C (that's 68F), relative humidity 61%" . Mind you, pepper plats are tropical and can withstand and thrive in high temps. Significantly reducing a cool season grass' ability to cool itself in 90+ degree weather is a totally different ballgame I would think.
> 
> 
> 
> Just to clarify, you are basically saying the chitosan cocktail is facing more difficult conditions, and therefore results might not be as impressive as results in the study?
Click to expand...

I went back and looked over it again...there was a growth-chamber study *and* a field study. The average temp for the growth-chamber was 68F. For some reason they didn't list or I overlooked the temperature for the field study, plants were moved outside on June 20, 1998. According to weather underground the temps for Pullman Washington in 1998 were as follows:

June Max Temp 86F
July Max Temp 99F
August Max Temp 100F
September Max Temp 96F

It was during the 84-day of the field study that the chitosan-treated plants used 43% less water than the control plants. The chamber-study chitosan treated plants used 26% less water than the control plant.


----------



## GA_Fescue_Man

Just wanted to put this here. Found an article on the basic operation of the stomata in turfgrass.

https://www.golfdom.com/understanding-the-complex-workings-of-stomata/


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## Rig2

I haven't received any chitosan yet but I did get the yucca (wet Betty) powder. Going to the hippie store to source the acids locally. I did get my test grass planted in pots. It's only been six days and am starting to see green shoot ups. Now it's just a waiting game.



Been reading up on how the stomata works. Seems like it's either full open and loss of transpiration or closed in a state of shock/ dormancy. Hopefully the chitosan will make it slightly closed to reduce the water transpiration loss but keep it open enough for it it process CO2 to keep up the photosynthesis action up.

I have eight pots going so I I have a few options of what to use and how much stress I can put on them. Can't wait for the rain to leave and the stress of summer to show up.

Thanks @GA_Fescue_Man for that article. It sent me in a direction about what we are trying to control. I was only looking at the chitosan studies and not what we are trying manipulate.


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## Grass Clippins

GA_Fescue_Man said:


> Just wanted to put this here. Found an article on the basic operation of the stomata in turfgrass.
> 
> https://www.golfdom.com/understanding-the-complex-workings-of-stomata/


That's a good article, I like the car analogy.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 I like it. Looks like you are doing a "The Chamber-Study" with the grow lights and controlled environment. I'm excited to see what Yucca does alone vs what chitosan does alone. I think that the OII-YS claims of better uptake are accredited to the yucca while the claims of reducing transpiration are accredited to the chitosan. I may add yucca only to all my application (no effect on stomata) and then do yucca and chitosan in July August and September to shut her down. I just tracked my chitosan and it's at JFK in NY.


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## Rig2

@Grass Clippins I am going to punish these mini patches to see what each one does and what they do together.

I have been looking into the yucca and what it does. Haven't really been able to find any concrete studies on grass or plants. Just a lot of what the yucca claims to do. Some claim its a natural non-ionic surfactant. Others claim that since the plant survives drought by retaining moisture on the regular, you grind it up and put it on another plant it will absorb those qualities. All my searches lead to information posted by sellers. Seems kinda biased but you need to sell, I get it. No real negatives to it though. Since it is so cheap and I got a pound of it, I am going to throw it in every time I liquid spray.

Totally agree with you on which product does what. Hopefully all our test show similar results. Then we all can refine the cocktail mixture and have a legit recipe.

Mostly I just want to expose what a ripoff the OY2S is, and the ones who peddle it marked up so high.


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## craigdt

I did some more work on this to hopefully add some useful information.

I wanted to find out how much citric acid it takes to add to 1 gallon of water to drop the pH level to the suggested 3.5-5.

Answer:
1/2 teaspoon of citric acid drops 1 gallon of my water to 4.36 pH

Base water pH:









Citric acid:









End result:


----------



## Rig2

Good information. I was wondering how much was going to be needed for a gallon mix. Guess I don't need the one pound bag. I will be using citric acid on one cocktail and the otherwith latic acid.

What type of ph meter is that @craigdt ? The one I have is a pain to use. Needs to be stored with distilled water on the tip with the cap. Then every time I need to calibrate it with solution and turning the worlds smallest inaccessible screw. It's always off by 1 full ph point after storage. I started looking into the meters last night but got paralysis from analysis. Looking for one that is easy to store and not always needing calibration.

Still waiting for all my ingredients except the yucca. The test pot grass is slowly coming along. Didn't realize how cold the house was and that is keeping the soil temps in the 50*f range. Just a waiting game now.


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## Rig2

Slowly growing


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## craigdt

Rig2 said:


> Good information. I was wondering how much was going to be needed for a gallon mix. Guess I don't need the one pound bag. I will be using citric acid on one cocktail and the otherwith latic acid.
> 
> What type of ph meter is that @craigdt ? The one I have is a pain to use. Needs to be stored with distilled water on the tip with the cap. Then every time I need to calibrate it with solution and turning the worlds smallest inaccessible screw. It's always off by 1 full ph point after storage. I started looking into the meters last night but got paralysis from analysis. Looking for one that is easy to store and not always needing calibration.
> 
> Still waiting for all my ingredients except the yucca. The test pot grass is slowly coming along. Didn't realize how cold the house was and that is keeping the soil temps in the 50*f range. Just a waiting game now.


I just got a $13 one off Amazon.
It was basically calibrated out of the box before I even did the calibration myself.

I decided: there is basically a 2pH range that is acceptable, so it's not critical to be within even 1pH level.

Basically, I now know what my base water pH is, and if I'm off in the future, I can adjust my that factor.

And really, I only needed to use it this one time to determine how much citric acid to add.

It will be interesting to see how it handles in the future, 'cuz I sure ain't calibrating it each time.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 I found this video on making your own lactic acid bacteria, Korean Natural Farming How To: L.A.B.

This guy has a lot of other cool videos on his channel and on his website Natural Farming Co. I think I may have just discovered my new obsession...


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## GA_Fescue_Man

You guys have done some nice work! Looking forward to see how things work out.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Wow!! Reading through all of these posts. You guys are really committed and also part time chemists!!lol! Love seeing the commitment! I also can't see myself spending another $300 for a gallon of the GCI natural adjuvant. Hopefully you guys are on to something!


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## x Wild Bill x

I also wanted to post and share my support for you guys doing these experiments! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to study and understand how this works and affects lawns. I'm really hoping for some positive results as the DIY method is a lot more budget friendly and reduces water usage.

Keep up the great work!


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## jdc_lawnguy

I've really enjoyed following along with this as well. It is a great read and looking forward to seeing your progress.


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## Rig2

I finally got all my ingredients. Grass in the pots are doing good. Made their first cut two weeks ago. Still growing under grow lights. Been putting them outside for a few hours if I get home before it's too cold. That way they get some natural sunlight.

It's just a waiting game now. I can't wait to punish these and hopefully get some good results. Will be posting pictures and sharing all the information on the cocktails when it's summer. Hopefully we can come up with results that are similar and consistent. That way we can dial in the mixtures and make a good home brewed adjuvant.


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## MckinneyLawn

Does anyone have any experience with chitosan? It is a derivative of chitin (crustacean shells). There seems to be a lot of benefits and it is one of the ingredients of GCI Turf Natural Adjuvant. Here's a link to an article about it https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4964372/#!po=78.9157


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## g-man

@MckinneyLawn This thread was in the cool season forum. I moved it to the Soil one and merged it with your question.


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## MckinneyLawn

Thanks @g-man I must have spelled it wrong when I searched for it.


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## Grass Clippins

@@Rig2 How are the test plots coming? I'm oddly excited for heat stress season to see if this stuff works.


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## Rig2

@Grass Clippins. Yeah, about the test pots. When my daughter has a science project everyone must participate and it gets done the night before. Well, my science project got nothing but neglect. The first few weeks I was working locally taking care of it and it was doing good. Then I started working out of town since. I put a timer on the lights, I put the grass in the dining kitchen area so you could see it. No body cared. So they would slowly die, then when I came home I would revive them. Last time I bribed my daughter with 20 bucks to water and take outside daily after school. She left them outside and didn't water them at all. The only week we didn't get rain. They dead.

The mail lady drives on a section of the lawn to get as close to the mailbox as humanly possible and has destroyed the grass there. Last week I made a little landing strip for the wheels and squared up the edges out front. I poached some grass from that section. I now have that grass in the pots. They are living life out side and doing good. I figured that maybe a little better representation of how my lawn will respond since it's actual lawn grass.

I don't know when I'll get to start stressing the grass. We have had a record breaking year for rain and it doesn't look to stop anytime soon. But in the summer time it gets above 100 on the regular. Just a waiting game now.

By the way, I am on GCI email list. He was just reselling the oys2 with his own label on it. He even went on to say that it has yucca and chitosan in it. So he has came clean with what is and allegedly lowered the price. Still sky high compared to actual ingredient cost.


----------



## craigdt

Thanks for the update.

I had some small reservations about dumping this stuff on the grass that I've babied along, but I don't think there is potential for harm, right?


----------



## Drewmey

craigdt said:


> In sprayer, add 1 gallon water per 1K sq ft.
> Add enough citric acid to bring the water to 3.5-5.5 pH
> Add Chitosan powder: 3.8 gram/1K Sq ft
> Add Yucca powder: 1 gram/1K Sq ft (Liquid yucca: .20oz)


I am super interested in this for my tall fescue. And I am not afraid to do calculations and mix things. I quite prefer it.

If I am correct, there are a little over 28 grams in an ounce. So at 1 gram/1k SF, one shouldn't require much of the Yucca extract. Sounds like I could get 8 oz for $18 which would cover 224,000 SF. But that is way more than I need for my small lawn.

The Citric Acid is cheap (sounds like 1/2 tsp per gallon depending on your starting pH).

The Chitosan is more expensive. In order to cover that same 224,000 SF, I would need to buy 851 grams of the Chitosan. A thousand grams is $120 on eBay from one provider! But then it is only $66 here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/BulkSupple...hash=item2f2945bbe7:m:mbBxbJBob9GpgOOPaiFJxmg But it doesn't list the percentage of chitosan.

Which products are you all buying to test with? I am guessing you all are just buying 100-500 grams to start out with before starting to scale up.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 :lol: I figured that's how it would go, using grow lights is a lot work. I saw the email from Pete as well. I think it was smart of him to not repackage it, at least now people can research what they're buying. I had a good laugh at his latest video because he got so close to explaining what it actually does before going off script and comparing it to steroids. In my mind I was thinking "OMG he's going for it.....he's going for it!" :lol: I doubt I could have done much better though on camera.

@craigdt It's supposed to close the stomata, which is un-natural, so you probably don't want to overuse it. I'm going to wait for the temperatures to peak this summer before I start my weekly foliar applications. That's about the time that I stop mowing due to the stress it causes. When it's safe to mow again I will stop the weekly applications. I have no idea if that's right or wrong but it seems like a conservative approach.

@Drewmey I honestly think that the Yucca might be a marketing thing. Someone else mentioned that there isn't anything out there showing proof of it working. Chitosan...that's were the magic happens, yucca is just the wetting agent. I ordered 500 grams from this place, it was $65 dollars. @craigdt got his from bulk supplement. If you call bulk they will probably tell you the purity. I would start out small in case this whole venture is a bust.


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## Grass Clippins

@Drewmey If you really want to get crafty you can make your own Lactic Acid Bacteria to lower the pH. Here is a write up on it and Here is a video on it.


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## bwhitaker

https://www.bulksupplements.com/chitosan-extract-powder.html If I'm reading this right it's 100% Chitosan. If I remember right bulk supplements have very few fillers but the quantities are often quite low. This is also likely pharmaceutical grade(or something similar) so it may be possible to find something cheaper that's agg grade.


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## ErosionWizard

Man. You guys are on it. I hope everything works as good as it sounds. I believe the water saving could be incredible. Depending on where you live, this offset could save your lawn and your wallet. Over the past few years in California, the water price has gone up a lot and the amount you are supposed to use has gone done. Anything that can reduce your water needs and also still benefit your lawn and or flowerbeds would be great. I'm interested in how much water can be saved and how much you have to spend to get that savings.


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## Grass Clippins

I'm think about making a batch of Chitosan Liquid Fert with this 50 lb bag of Crab & Lobster Shell from Neptune's Harvest. Figured I throw that out there.... :bandit: This stuff is too coarse spray but should breakdown over a three month period.


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## Rig2

How ripe would the garage smell letting this ferment for three months? Where does one procure some leaf mold? @Grass Clippins I'll let you try it out.

On the other hand, I have been looking into abscisic acid. It is also a plant growth hormone that closes the stomata. I couldn't find any studies that give out amounts used, only what the results were. Reducing transpiration was one of the main results. But it also induced dormancy.

I couldn't find any reasonable priced abscisic acid so I looked on ebay. Found a packet for like 10 bucks but it came from New Zeland. Totally forgot about it. Ordered it in January and my wife said it came in the mail today. I am going to try it on one of the test plots.

I hope to go home this weekend and I'll update on the plots. Next time I work local to home I think I am going to start the experiment. It's not too hot yet but I want to see what the watering schedule can be. If the Chitosan mix goes longer till it looks stressed compared to no water.


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## Grass Clippins

@Rig2 I'm going to have to read the fert section of that book again but I believe it sits in an airtight container, no smell. I'll let it sit in a 50 gallon drum in the shed to be on the safe side.

Leaf mold is the decay just beneath top layer of leaves in the forest. If you look at my journal I have picture on page 6. It's pretty amazing how alive that stuff will get if you give it something to eat and let it sit.

Abscisic acid sounds interesting...


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## Green

Grass Clippins said:


> This Natural Adjuvant is OII-YS and it is the source of the  GCI Natural Adjuvant , credit on this discovery goes to O_Poole. If you don't believe it, compare the labels.
> 
> ...
> 
> GCI Natural Adjuvant 100% positive this is repackaged OII-YS. Minimum order size 16 ounces. Pricing is as follows assuming rumored cost of $100/gallon:
> 16oz for $40 (220% markup over cost)
> 1 gallon for $269 (169% markup over cost)
> 2.5 gallons for $439 ( 75.6% markup over cost)
> 5 gallons for $800 (60% markup over cost).


Pete is now listing it under it's original name on his web store. So you guys were correct, no shadow of a doubt. Excellent research!


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## Tmank87

Has anyone purchased this from anywhere other than GCI?

@craigdt if not, make it happen!

I looked at the site you provided for the bottles. I spent like an hour browsing and adding items only to find out shipping killed the deal!


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## Grass Clippins

@Tmank87 To my knowledge OII-YS is the only company that makes anything like this, they must have a patent. GCI seems to have the best price for those who don't want to DYI. When you talk about shipping are you referring to the individual ingredients to make it yourself?

@GA_Fescue_Man When we were in the midst of our drought last month I was going to lay down a test only to find that I don't have a pH meter. By the time it got here the rain started. Did you use any GCI Natural Adjuvant during the drought and did you notice a difference?

@Green I think that was a wise move on his part. I noticed that he's diving into the benefits during his videos now that it's not such a secret. Providing people with the Features Advantages and Benefits is a pretty important part of the sales process vs saying "this stuff is awesome...trust me".


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## Tmank87

I was wondering if it can be bought directly and broken down and rebottled and split amongst multiple members.


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## craigdt

Tmank87 said:


> Has anyone purchased this from anywhere other than GCI?
> 
> @craigdt if not, make it happen!
> 
> I looked at the site you provided for the bottles. I spent like an hour browsing and adding items only to find out shipping killed the deal!


Man, why does it always have to be me? :lol: :thumbup:

Yes, shipping in the bottles is usually the most expensive part for some reason. That's why I started just sending huge quantities.

I _could_ do a split to make it cheaper, but I think it would still be much more price effective to mix up your own. Or is that what you meant?

I don't have my pricing matrix in front of me, but probably $35 of stuff will get you many more applications than the O1-YS/GCI stuff. A couple extra minutes of mixing, maybe.

It's about time to make an application of this. I'm nervous, but don't have a specific reason to be. The recipie I settled on was derived from existing information and some pretty good estimates by other members.


----------



## Xoque

Tmank87 said:


> Has anyone purchased this from anywhere other than GCI?
> 
> @craigdt if not, make it happen!
> 
> I looked at the site you provided for the bottles. I spent like an hour browsing and adding items only to find out shipping killed the deal!


I contacted the manufacturer of this product and they emailed me Pete's contact info and another man's. This is if you're a DYI person which I am. If I'm commercial and wanted large quantities I'm sure they'd deal directly with me. But I'm sure I cannot afford the quantities I'd be required to purchase.


----------



## Green

Grass Clippins said:


> Green I think that was a wise move on his part. I noticed that he's diving into the benefits during his videos now that it's not such a secret. Providing people with the Features Advantages and Benefits is a pretty important part of the sales process vs saying "this stuff is awesome...trust me".


Yes, and in one of his recent videos on late Spring fertilizing, he talked for a long time and made it very clear about how his main goal is not to sell products, and people should not go out and buy all the stuff he sells, stuff they don't need, stuff that is "trendy", stuff they don't know how to use properly, stuff they can't afford right now when they can get by with less expensive alternatives, etc.


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## Green

@Tmank87 We have areas where one could post on that topic to see.


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## Thick n Dense

So do we have anyreal world testing?
This seems awesome in times of heat and drought but dows it really extend the length of time in between waterings?


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## GA_Fescue_Man

@Grass Clippins I put down some of the O2YS adjuvant with my fungicide applications at 0.4 oz./M on 04/29 & again on 05/25. The 05/25 app was right in the middle of the drought and when things were super hot. It's hard to say how much of an impact it made with heat stress.

I have one area of my yard that is pretty compacted from grading last fall and that area was definitely experiencing signs of heat stress when I applied the adjuvant on 05/25. I did not see any noticeable difference in that area after the application. That could be because of the underlying compaction issue or the frequency of applications leading up to the heat stress (not enough product in the ground so to speak), I'm not sure. That area has since rebounded some from the rains that we received over this past weekend. The rest the yard (better overall soil conditions) held up well to the drought conditions and is looking really good.

I also look at the adjuvant as a way to reduce the amount of fungicide I need per app. In my two applications, I used the low rates of azoxystrobin and propiconazole. As of right now, I do not have any fungus present in the yard (knock on wood  ) In that regard it is working so far, but that could change pretty quickly. Hope this helps.


----------



## Grass Clippins

@Thick n Dense There is an academic study they did with peppers list in the opening post click to view. As far as turf goes it all unproven, unless there is a study out there that I dont know about. If it keeps the water from leaving the plant I'm assuming it would cut down on water. The key may be to use it before the grass goes dormant. When the time comes I'll do a weekly application with a fine mist to completely cover the grass blades, similar to what the did with the pepper leaves in the study.

@GA_Fescue_Man From what I saw in your journal, your fescue handled the heat like a champ. I'm going to start my fungicide cycle earlier next year, like you did. Mid April is when I had to start emptying my dehumidifier in the basement each day and I should have taken that as a sign. I waited until mid May and I think the usually propiconazole burn was made worse by the heat stress.


----------



## Thick n Dense

@Grass Clippins 
Yea, not trying ro doubt effectivness but to me, if this product does not extend the watering window, then theres no point.

Maybe between 8" roots, the dry spot pellets and this we can water every 2 weeks, instead of one.


----------



## Green

Thick n Dense said:


> Grass Clippins
> Yea, not trying ro doubt effectivness but to me, if this product does t extend the watering window, then theres no point.
> 
> Maybe between 8" roots, the dry spot pellets and this we can water every 2 weeks, instead of one.


You'd think it should, because less transpiration means less moisture being pulled out of the soil through the grass, all else equal. One would guess you could go a few more days without watering in most cases...especially on cool season grass.


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## Grass Clippins

@Thick n Dense I agree. I'm pretty sure that's where almost everyone stands on OII-YS. Their slogan is "Believe The Unbelievable", which sounds like bull crap and throws up a red flag. That being said chitosan, on it's own, performed as claimed on the pepper plants in the study.....I hope they're right.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So should we just be buying glucosimine instead?


----------



## Grass Clippins

I remember researching this before and I think that glucosamine is extracted from chitosan and chitin, so it's not as pure. Glucosamine seems to be a dietary supplement while chitosan has dietary and agricultural benefits. Beyond that I'm clueless. I'm going to try to stay as close as I can to recreating the WSU study, which used chitosan, to see if I can get the same results.


----------



## GA_Fescue_Man

@Grass Clippins 
It held up to the drought pretty well. I do have irrigation and during that time I was watering 3 days a week to put down 1.5 inches for the week. If I did not have irrigation, things would have been rough man! Outside that recently graded area, the grass has definitely been able go for stretches without water. The previous owner of the house was a landscape architect and he installed the sprinkler system for the house. Based on conversations with the neighbors, he had a nice stand of fescue and he would be out there using manual shears at times , so I think the root cycling history and him improving the soil (through compost, etc.) over a long period of time has helped my yard tremendously.

I usually try to target Cinco de Mayo as the start of my fungicide apps, but I started a little early this year because the temp+humidity were projected to get around 150 at the start of May. An older route manager for Turf Masters introduced me to that 150 rule awhile back and I try to follow it loosely, it doesn't have to be exact. You may already know this, but basically if the temps+humidity equal 150 and stay that way for about 12 hours or so, that is prime brown patch/fungus conditions. That normally happens when the night time temps are around 65+. So I try to get down my first fungicide app before those conditions exist consistently. I usually track the conditions on this weather site (http://www.georgiaweather.net/), as well as Weather Underground. There's probably an app or a more technologically advanced way to do it, but this works for me.

See ya man.


----------



## crzyworm623

Great Topic. I'm following along.

You guys were spot on with O11-YS being the same as the GCI, as he recently announced dropping his name from the label and sticking with the manufacturer. With that, the price dropped a considerable amount since Grass Clippins posted the prices in January.

I started looking at prices for purchasing (for personal homeowner use) from GCI vs. the DIY that you guys came up with. 
You can buy larger quantities to cut down on cost even more, but I'm looking at homeowner pricing. I usually try to purchase the largest quantity to reduce application cost, while ensuring it would likely be used within 2 seasons. I have 12k of lawn, with most products being applied 3-5 times a year, I look at a minimum of what I need for a year to the maximum I'd need for 2 full years. My calculations options reflect purchasing options that would be good for me.

Just looking at the Refill prices with acid included (prices will be rounded). Price per 1k based on 0.5 oz per 1k
1 pt = $45 = 16 oz = $2.81/oz = $1.40 / 1k : covers 32 k
1 qt = $83 = 32 oz =$2.59/oz = $1.29 / 1k : covers 64 k
1 Gal = $170 = 128 oz = $1.33/oz = $0.66 / 1k : covers 256 k

DIY ebay bought Chitosan: Going by the one suggested formula of 3.8 g / 1k
300 g = $40 = $0.133 / g = $0.51 / k : covers 78 k 
500 g = $65 = $0.13 / g = $0.49 / k ; covers 131 k
1000g = $120 = $0.12 / g = $0.46 / k ; Covers 263 k (listing this as coverage is similar to purchasing 1 gal OII-ys)

DIY ebay Yucca Powder: 1 g / 1k
4 oz = 113 g = $14 = $0.124 : covers 113 k
8 oz = 227g = $19 = $0.084 : covers 227 k (listing this as coverage is similar to purchasing 1 gal OII-ys)

Total DIY cost (minus minimal cost of acid)
Highest $0.634 / k
Lowest $0.544 / k

OII-YS (includes acid)
Highest =$1.40 / k
Lowest = $0.66 / k

The DIY option for any quantity is cost effective. But once you hit buying 1 gallon or more, the price difference becomes minimal. As mentioned in another post, it's possible that maybe only half the amount of Chitosan is needed, which would bring the cost down even more, but without a lab sheet or testing, it's impossible to make a direct comparison.

In my situation, 1 gallon is a lot of product to have, approx 22 applications. I'd likely only do maybe 4-5 applications a year?. GCI is supposed to run a sale for the 4th of July, probably only going to be a few bucks off, but I may go ahead and order a gallon and split it with a friend. 1 gallon split would give me approx 11 applications, so around 2 years + a little extra worth of product for the price of $70.00. This is about what I'd spend on the DIY version.

In conclusion, if concerned about cost per 1k, buy at least a gallon of OII-YS, and if a gallon is too much, maybe try the above mentioned DIY and let us know how it works out.


----------



## Drewmey

crzyworm623 said:


> DIY ebay bought Chitosan: Going by the one suggested formula of 3.8 g / 1k
> 300 g = $40 = $0.133 / g = $0.51 / k : covers 78 k
> 500 g = $65 = $0.13 / g = $0.49 / k ; covers 131 k
> 1000g = $120 = $0.12 / g = $0.46 / k ; Covers 263 k (listing this as coverage is similar to purchasing 1 gal OII-ys)


I think these DIY Chitosan prices are a bit high. Almost double actually.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/BulkSupple...=20255589885530cfd7adf1a34914851837e6efcdd127


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## Grass Clippins

@crzyworm623 If I purchase any chitosan again I'll probably get it from Bulk Supplements like @Drewmey mentioned, it's half the price. Your are correct about the OII-YS price drop changing thing as far as price comparison is concerned, plus it's premixed which would be nice. The only unknown that would make a true price comparison possible is the actual amount of Chitosan in OII-YS.....that I would like to know.

Rough Estimate of New Math 

Total DIY cost (minus minimal cost of acid)
Highest $0.32 / k
Lowest $0.27 / k

OII-YS (includes acid)
Highest =$1.40 / k
Lowest = $0.66 / k


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## crzyworm623

The price from bulk supplements is definitely more enticing to go the DIY route. Thanks for pointing that out.

Even if you doubled the amount of Chitosan, then at that price you would still be at equal price to buying the 1 gallon OII-YS, but with far less initial investment.

Doubling the Chitosan would likely not be harmful, but prob not all the beneficial either. At the lower price, I wouldn't be concerned then with trying to make the most cost effective, yet efficient mix. I might go ahead and order some supplies and go with the cocktail suggested a few pages back.


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## Grass Clippins

And so it begins....

7/7/2019

I applied the first application of chitisan with yucca wetting agent to the test plot.

3.8 grams of chitisan & 0.08 liquid ounces of yucca wetting agent per 1 gallon of water.

Below is a pic of the chitosan weight out, 19 grams for a 5 gallon batch. I had some clogging issues with this chitosan from ebay. I mixed it up with hot water in a small container first but was not able to get complete solubility. Curious if the bulk supplements chitosan would be better. 


Below is a picture of the ThermX-70 Yucca Wetting Agent. The plan was 0.4 liquid ounces for a 5 gallon batch but I rounded up to 0.5...or a little more. This is a concentrate and looks a lot like molasis.


Below is a picture of a sample ready to spray. It didn't take much citric acid to get the pH to 4.5, maybe half a tablespoon for 5 gallons. It definitely has an aquatic smell at this point.


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## Rig2

How has the grass reacted to the heat stress with the chitosan/yucca mix? Excited to see if it did anything or if you can notice anything.

@Grass Clippins, I been working out of town longer than I ever have this spring and summer. I haven't had more than one day home at a time. Hard to do my side of the comparison with my test pots. It looks like I'll be working home locally in August so I'll start my unscientific test then. August is usually when we have our most brutal heat anyways.

I'm still on board with the testing. I want to be home regularly so I can control all the variables as best as I can.


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## jvilla

Anyone know if i can mix this with kelp,humic, fulfic, iron in the same batch?


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## Grass Clippins

@jvilla You could but you may want to hold off. I've noticed zero difference in the treat vs non treated test area.


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## jvilla

Thanks for the heads up.


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## craigdt

I guess my question is if I didn't get this applied before heat and stress, should I wait? It's been 100 degrees for a week now.


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## Grass Clippins

The issue that I'm running into is that I cannot get the chitosan powder to completely dissolve in water. No matter how much I stir it up the chitosan always seems to settle. I guess this is to be expected due the fact that the label clearly states "It is not very soluble in water".

I went back to the the study, looking for answers, and ran across this again..."Chitosan at a concentration of 1 g L−1 was dissolved in a 0.1% (w/w) d/l lactic acid solution." Looks like I need to buy some lactic acid. I thought the lactic acid was used to drop the pH but it turns out that it gets everything soluble.

Even if I can get this fixed I'm still headed into this with a good bit of skepticism. Almost everything I've found on the topic is focused towards agriculture, not turf. In agriculture they are doing foliar applications of chitosan on broad leaf plants, not narrow blades of grass. This is not a soil based thing, it's got to cover the entire leaf front and back to work.

I'm also questioning if the stomates* of grasses are different that the stomates of non-grasses. That led me to this article from Cosmos...which then led me to this study from National Academy of Science.

*The internet says stomates is the plural of stoma? Right or wrong is sounds educated.


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## Xoque

Grass Clippins said:


> The issue that I'm running into is that I cannot get the chitosan powder to completely dissolve in water. No matter how much I stir it up the chitosan always seems to settle. I guess this is to be expected due the fact that the label clearly states "It is not very soluble in water".
> 
> I went back to the the study, looking for answers, and ran across this again..."Chitosan at a concentration of 1 g L−1 was dissolved in a 0.1% (w/w) d/l lactic acid solution." Looks like I need to buy some lactic acid. I thought the lactic acid was used to drop the pH but it turns out that it gets everything soluble.
> 
> Even if I can get this fixed I'm still headed into this with a good bit of skepticism. Almost everything I've found on the topic is focused towards agriculture, not turf. In agriculture they are doing foliar applications of chitosan on broad leaf plants, not narrow blades of grass. This is not a soil based thing, it's got to cover the entire leaf front and back to work.
> 
> I'm also questioning if the stomates* of grasses are different that the stomates of non-grasses. That led me to this article from Cosmos...which then led me to this study from National Academy of Science.
> 
> *The internet says stomates is the plural of stoma? Right or wrong is sounds educated.


I use OII-YS and it's the same way. Settles in the bottom and you have to shake it vigorously before adding it to the tank.


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## GA_Fescue_Man

Came across this paper and just wanted to place it here. It focuses more on the potential plant disease benefits and the interactions of chitin/chitosan with soil microorganisms. It seems like it was published in 2017. I hope things work out with the tests. Good luck.

https://scialert.net/fulltextmobile/?doi=ajppaj.2017.53.70

The quote below is a reference about lactic acid from the paper. It is more in reference to how chitosan can inhibit certain types of fungal growth.

"The inhibitory effect of chitosan depends on the type of solvent. Chitosan dissolved in lactic acid show the best inhibitory effect as compared to dissolved in formic acid and acetic acid".


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## Naidu

Anyone get to test this stuff?


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## Grass Clippins

@Naidu Unfortunately I haven't had any luck. I should have checked the solubility before it was "go time" in July.


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## ktgrok

Reviving this old thread to add on some other info about chitosan. Seems that the same company making the "natural adjuvant" is selling it as a nematicide. But...it only comes in 5 gallons per shipment, for a total of $400 plus shipping i think. So, not willing to put that out just to see if it works, without any other info. 
But...considering finding another chitosan source, and I know I can find the other ingredient, which is a saponin - monterrey has a nematicide product made with it. And I've already got citric acid. Anyone decide what the best/cheapest source of chitosan was?


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## mike_b

Chitosan is a component of some pool clarifier products. May be cheaper ways to source it.


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## Grass Clippins

@ktgrok Yeah...I think that O2-YS products are probably more suited for agriculture than turf management unless you have money to burn and can siphon it into your irrigation. I concluded that the juice isn't worth the squeeze.

I have heard about people using Crab Meal (Chitin) in gardening to fight nematodes. You can buy a 50 pound of crab meal for pretty cheap. Just throw that out over you lawn.

"The high levels of chitin in crab shell creates a perfect feeding ground for chitin eating bacteria; thereby increasing the bacteria's population. These bacteria in turn feed on the chitin containing cell walls of nematodes and fungi present in the soil. The increased presence of chitin in the soil also triggers a defense response in the plant causing a release of chitin destroying enzymes, thus increasing the plants' defense mechanisms and immune response. In this way, the crab shell inadvertently creates a hostile environment for nematodes and fungi and strengthens plants."


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## ktgrok

Grass Clippins said:


> @ktgrok Yeah...I think that O2-YS products are probably more suited for agriculture than turf management unless you have money to burn and can siphon it into your irrigation. I concluded that the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
> 
> I have heard about people using Crab Meal (Chitin) in gardening to fight nematodes. You can buy a 50 pound of crab meal for pretty cheap. Just throw that out over you lawn.
> 
> "The high levels of chitin in crab shell creates a perfect feeding ground for chitin eating bacteria; thereby increasing the bacteria's population. These bacteria in turn feed on the chitin containing cell walls of nematodes and fungi present in the soil. The increased presence of chitin in the soil also triggers a defense response in the plant causing a release of chitin destroying enzymes, thus increasing the plants' defense mechanisms and immune response. In this way, the crab shell inadvertently creates a hostile environment for nematodes and fungi and strengthens plants."


Yes! 
I actually think I'm going to try a liquid product I found, it's 0.5% chitosan instead of the 2% in Nemasan, but that's an easy adjustment to make. And I can get a 32 oz bottle for $20, and it is already dissolved in the citric acid. The other ingredient in Nemasan is a saponin that is the main ingredient in a product from Monterrey for nematodes, also not expensive.

I'm also thinking I'll get a product that I found that has silica and phosphites, both of which also help strengthen the plant immune system and natural defenses against insects/disease. Given that most studies on turf show that the actual count of nematodes doesn't correlate to damage, it may very well be that the ability of the plant to fight off the problem is as important as the number of critters. If nothing else, all are designed to also help with heat stress, fungual resistance, etc so worth a try. And I like throwing down stuff that helps the soil rather than just always using pesticides. (I use those too, but at some point more and more of them is too much)

Also, I've learned recently that if one is looking for products similar to what are used in large scale agriculture or golf courses, etc, but in smaller quantities, look for the stuff targeted at pot growers. They take it very seriously, but don't use the same large volume of product. The chitosan stuff, the smaller amounts of abamectin I found, the silica/phosphite stuff, etc etc are all used by pot growers. Who knew a lawn girl would find what she needed in the "weed" section, lol!
This is the liquid product with chitosan and citric acid: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XBQ1W7W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A13JL8OTTMA2OA&psc=1


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## TC2

Chitosan is apparently soluble in acidic solutions. It looks like a 0.1M acetic acid solution is recommended for a concentration of 0.1% chitosan (1g/L), which would be 6g of acetic acid (pure powder) in 1L of water. Additionally, the solubility will depend on the size of the polymers. If they're >80% deacetylated, ie short, then they're much more soluble. You're probably looking at hours to get this stuff to dissolve properly, assuming it's of short enough polymer chains to do so.


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## Grass Clippins

@TC2 I believe they used lactic acid in the study to dissolve the shell. Citric acid didn't do much but then again I didn't let it sit for long. If I went at this again I'd just throw out crab meal and let the bacteria do all the work. I guess the benefit of getting it fro ully dissolve would be to do a foliar application vs soil. But is it worth it? You can buy a 40 pound bag of crab meal for what a 5 pound bag of powder would cost. I've given up on trying to use chitosan to reduce transpiration but I still think it has it's place in the soil...


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## Grass Clippins

@ktgrok Some of these people growing dope are practically agronomist with the stuff they know about soil science. When I was researching it ... :roll: ... it sounded like a lot of these growers are moving away from hydroponics and back to soil. Apparently it's a competitive market place.


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## Rig2

I am still trying different combinations and amounts. I have not seen any significant difference between the applied area and control. They both need water in a few days. I am not scientific or exact in any way. I got a ton of it so I'll keep trying. It hasn't done any damage as far as I can tell.

If I doo see any results I will share it. But as of last year and this year no noticeable change.


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## GangstaRIB

Sorry to dig up a zombie thread but it seems like a few people were testing and I was wondering what the results were specifically with the OII-YS product. I was thinking of grabbing some from larry the cable guy over at GCI turf. I'm not sure how he's able to keep fescue pretty in 90+ degree weather but even my Zoysia gets pissed off when it gets hot.


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## Grass Clippins

@GangstaRIB I would pass on OII-YS. Think about it, if it were a legit product Pete wouldn't be the only one pushing it and he is literally the only one pushing it. Just another overpriced surfactant. It's a shame because I want to like Pete but this makes it tough. He's preaching the gospel on his channel while taking advantage of people who don't know any better.


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## Grass Clippins

I just requested Turf Truth dig into this. If any of you would like to see this please comment or thumbs up my comment you the latest You Tube video. Hopefully this will get his interest. My Youtube name is Brian O..


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## Grass Clippins

Weird, my original comment was deleted on You Tube so I did it again. I'm going to save my comment below in case it happens again.

"Turf Truth, would you please look into 02-YS http://o2yscorp.com . Their slogan is "Believe the Unbelievable" and I think this might be the holy grail of BS. One You Tuber is making a-lot of money pushing this snake oil. We did some uneducated research over on the Lawn Forum but need closure. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7201 . Thank you."

Update: posted without the links and it's staying up. I'm pretty sure they have a spam filter if links are included in the comments.


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## Lem855

Has anyone done any further research on chitosan with better results? I just can't see paying boatloads of money to Pete D. For adjuvant but after having to reno my yard this year due to the Texas heat stress 😫 and high water bill, 💧 I'll have to cave in and get something. Maybe this product is worth something to investigate. 
I've seen this product avaliable online from Canada by the ez-gro company. Anyone using this in their turf? 

Here is a link,




__





EZ-Gro Chitosan - EZ Gro







www.ez-gro.com


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## Lem855

I just contacted a new company that makes Chitosan in smaller quantities and seems to have better prices that GCI they also have free samples for us to try and would like for us to give some feed back about their product. We can also buy direct in small 32oz quantities for $38 -$51 for 2 HMW or 4% LMW strengths.
Here is a link to some of the documents they sent me and also a links to website, Tidal Vision | Your Chitosan Supplier | Manufactured in the United States

here are the documents they sent me, Happy reading!


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