# *** grass growing



## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Hi all I am a new member of the forum looking to develop a better understanding of caring for my lawn. Some back ground info on my situation.

Location- Andover, MN about 30 minutes north of Minneapolis
Lawn size-.6 acres
Lawn age-On a new construction lot built end of 2017, yard was fully graded and landscaped in August 2018. This included a lot of dirt work/grading and hauling of sand fill. Yard was topped with about 2-3'' of black dirt before the entire yard was sodded.
Irrigation-In ground sprinkler system that has very good head to head coverage.
Mower-Scag Vride ll 48'' velocity deck
Deck height-typically 3.0"-3.5" depending on season

The first season went very well, the yard took extremely well, no losses or burnt areas this entire season I mulched all clippings. No fertilizer applied this year, the yard grew extremely fast, thick and dark green. All sod was sourced from sod farms within a few miles of my residence. A good portion of the area around my residence are sod fields. Finished the season off at around 2.75'' cut height and called it a year.

Spring 2019 came, I had the yard thatched raked and had a decent amount of area (approximately 200-300 square feet of what appeared to be vole damage) we had a very snowy season. The racking cleaned up most of that and some top coating with Scotts EZ seed patch helped those spots come in nicely. The yard came in nicely, nothing was applied until around memorial day. Here I started applying Menards lawn food (30-0-3) one application about every 6 weeks. I believe a total of 3 applications were made that year. I likely was over applying as mowing every 3 days would still result in a dusty layer of clippings even with my commercial grade mower dispersing the clippings far better than any mower I have utilized, if I would of had a consumer grade mower I would have been bailing the yard. As the season progressed, mowing even every 2 days there was so much thatch left from the previous mowings I simply couldn't get a clean looking yard. I purchased Scags 2 bushel bagger with a belt driven vacuum on it. Works great but I understood even at this time bagging is not ideal but was necessary for the condition I got myself into. I mowed maybe the last 3-5 mowings with a bagger, mainly just fall clean up and leaf removal, the grass growth was slowing at this point anyway. This season the yard still looked great, nice and dark green, thick, little weed intrusion and healthy. I had a patio poured and some other work done in the back yard, some minor sod repair and an extension of the yard was created. Again black dirt top coated and irrigated. I mowed down to 2.5'' I believe that season and called it a year.

Spring 2020 of this year, we had a mild winter, little winter damage happened so I made the mistake (at least I think it was) of not having the yard thatched. The yard seemed to me to take quite a slow start this year, I went around and top coated any troubled spots with Scotts Ez Seed again and started watering about 1-2 a week. The yard started to green up but never once this year I have felt it reached a dark green state, the weeds have been 2x as bad at least this year so it has required a lot more manual weed removal. The odd thing was the small area of side yard that received the new sod last year was looking nice, throughout this whole season it has grown thicker, darker and with little weed intrusion. The majority of the rest of the yard has been nice, but not dark green. It has been growing very inconsistently and not as thick nor as dark. I have been using the same Menards lawn food, while that has spurred growth, it to me hasn't given me that dark green grass.

A few thoughts I have are:
Not watering enough, I water once a week for about 30 minutes a station. I will measure the amount of water this is and report back. 
Another major issue is I have been bagging all year, while I knew this was not ideal I truly enjoyed the cleaner yard and being able to mow once a week instead of 3 times.
Another problem potentially is with now only mowing once per week I am cutting off a large amount of the grass blade during mowing. Likely more than 1/3 of the height of the grass.
I am not sure if my decline in my lawn quality can be attributed to bagging this year, if so I must stop. The bagger is very intrusive to remove so that is another reason for bagging this year. 
I do think I am missing some key nutrients, any area that I use the Scotts EZ seed no matter what time of year it may be, I get very thick, green and healthy grass in the area while the rest of the grass appears lime green. 
I am looking to accomplish a tier 2 yard, the tier 3 is beyond my time thresholds for this point in life. Money on the fertilizers and treatments isn't of huge concern. I will gladly dedicate a few hours a week to the lawn and understand that this season is on the wind down. I would just like to prep things for a good season next year if possible.

I truly appreciate any responses and time taken to educate me in my situation, this place has endless knowledge. I spent the last week on and off reading on the forum educating myself about how to properly grow KBG. Another last comment perhaps worth mentioning is I spot treated some weeds this year using fertilome weed killer. It worked well but I noticed it wanted to burn out treated areas slightly in the heat of summer so I stopped and went back to pulling weeds. These areas greened up again but now that the yard is struggling slightly, these spot treated areas are the first spots to yellow even though I had treated these areas with fertilome probably over 2 months ago.

Attached are two pictures after last weeks mowing, as you can see the yard looks nice but the inconsistency in the color and health of the yard looks like a problem to me. It never used to be like that.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

Have you read through the fall N blitz?

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753

Your lawn looks hungry, and just skimming over your post sounds like you havent applied much nitrogen over the last couple years. kbg loves its nitrogen, water and sun. 
Probably should be getting down 4+lbs/Nitrogen per 1000sq ft. Each yr.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

I'm no fungal expert so hopefully someone else can correct me but that second picture almost looks like dollar spot??

and based off your post, it definitely sounds like your not watering enough. Need to know how much water you are putting down, time is irrelevant. 
30mins per zone your probably getting around ¼". You should be closer to 1.5" per week in the heat of summer.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Bagging your clippings isn't the issue. Water more, get on the fall N blitz. Don't use herbicides in the dead of summer. There is usually a temperature restriction with these.

Your lawn looks better than most. Just feed and water it.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> I'm no fungal expert so hopefully someone else can correct me but that second picture almost looks like dollar spot??
> 
> and based off your post, it definitely sounds like your not watering enough. Need to know how much water you are putting down, time is irrelevant.
> 30mins per zone your probably getting around ¼". You should be closer to 1.5" per week in the heat of summer.


I just tested and it looks like I am sitting around a half inch of water for a 30 minute run, so like you said watering needs to be increased. It has been drier this year than the previous years so that also isn't helping. I appreciate the insight!


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> Have you read through the fall N blitz?
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753
> 
> ...


According to my math I have done two applications this year, I have been applying at a rate of 3.5 pounds/per 1,000 square feet. That would get me to 7 pounds/k, multiply that by .3 as my menards lawn food is .30% urea. That gets me to 2.1 pounds for the year. Am I going about my calculation correctly?


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Harts said:


> Bagging your clippings isn't the issue. Water more, get on the fall N blitz. Don't use herbicides in the dead of summer. There is usually a temperature restriction with these.
> 
> Your lawn looks better than most. Just feed and water it.


Thank you for the comments, I plan to get on this right away as this coming week is the first week we are out of the 80s where I am at, should be able to locate some at the near by sod farms. Do you prefer Urea or Ammonium sulfate?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I use urea because it's easier to source for me. Get whatever is easy for you


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

jordan572 said:


> Justmatson said:
> 
> 
> > Have you read through the fall N blitz?
> ...


Yes your math is correct. I would say that's very light for the year. 
You could start the fall N blitz now. I would do 0.5lb urea per 1000 bi-weekly. <--- only problem with doing this is your grass is going to take off. You'll probably need to mow every 3 days. I know you said you want to try avoiding this but your grass will love it.... keep up with the watering too

Opinion for next year: Start using slower release organic fertilizers and look into PGR's.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> jordan572 said:
> 
> 
> > Justmatson said:
> ...


Sounds good, I am going to see if the sod farm up the road has some urea later today, for this first application then you're recommending I put down 1.08 total pounds/per k of fertilizer? (.5#/.46=1.08#'s). Quick question what is the purpose of the other 54% of the make up in the fertilizer?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Do yourself a favour and pretend urea is 50% N. It makes the math much simpler. 1 lb will net you 0.46lb N. You don't need to be exactly at 1.08lb.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Harts said:


> Do yourself a favour and pretend urea is 50% N. It makes the math much simpler. 1 lb will net you 0.46lb N. You don't need to be exactly at 1.08lb.


Okay that sounds better, just curious what is the other 54%?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

My guess is filler to add weight to the prills for spreadability. This would be true of any fert - whether it's 21-0-0 or 15-15-15. The entire bag of fert isn't made up of NPK.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The chemical formula of urea is CH4N2O. As you can see, it is not 100% nitrogen. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen are in there too. They add weight to the molecular weight. You will need to use the avocado number and all that stuff we forgot from high school chemistry class.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

I called the local sod farm that sells commercial quality fertilizers, they claimed urea fertilizer is band now as of a year or two ago along with quick release fertilizers? Is this true here in Minnesota, a quick google search did not confirm these comments I was told. Is it worth entertaining slow release fertilizers? The supply store hand numerous blends but all had some sort of potash and phosphorus in them, none with just nitrogen. Is a nitrogen only fertilizer that is fast release critical for this application? Thank you again everyone for all the comments and help.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Quick release fert is used at this time of year because it feeds the lawn right away, which is important to help grass like KBG spread and fill in. You typically want to stay away from P and K unless a soil test says the levels are low. Increased levels of potassium can lead to an increased incidence of snow mold.

If doing the fall N blitz, fast release N is preferred.

I can't speak to urea being banned but I find it hard to believe. If I can get it in Ontario, surely you can get it there! Ammonium sulfate is another option.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@jordan572 I think there is a ban that starts 01sep for farms. They are trying to control the runoff. I don't think it applies to homeowners.

@mowww do you know more about this ban?


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## mowww (Jan 16, 2018)

@g-man @jordan572 there is no ban on urea in MN or any other restrictions to homeowners other than the phosphorus ban on lawns that are neither being renovated or show a deficiency. The Ag side does have N restrictions in place as of today in many area of the state but no outright bans. While I would encourage 50% or more slow release to limit losses to the environment, the state has no restrictions like that for homeowners.


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## Shawn E (Jun 24, 2018)

Looks like almost everything was covered in past replies except for the dark green color. You can apply liquid iron and KBG will darken right up.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Thank you all for the help, I was able to track some down today at a local feed store. I am going to apply tonight at a rate of 1#/K. Just will have to figure out where to set my dial on my chapin spreader!


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

you can get urea from nutrien in big lake, they also sell anything else your looking for in terms of fertilizer.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

jordan572 said:


> Thank you all for the help, I was able to track some down today at a local feed store. I am going to apply tonight at a rate of 1#/K. Just will have to figure out where to set my dial on my chapin spreader!


I would suggest getting a Scotts Wizz hand spreader. Then what I do is set it to the lowest setting where it still comes out. This will probably depend on the prill size. For me its a 3.5 on the Wizz. Do multiple passes in different directions. N->S, E->W, and if its still going, diagonal. This is make sure you don't get 3/4 through and realize you dropped the whole hopper. After a week or two you will have your pass down and should be able to increase the setting if you want. I still do 2 passes, however.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ +1

I use the wizz too. In less than 5 min I spread all urea or ams I want. I even have a "calibrated" scoop that equals 1lb so I don't even have to get a weight.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I'm thinking about trying a 50/50 Urea Milo Mix or like 25/75 (haven't done the math yet) to avoid using the Whizz... works great no doubt but a regular spreader is more efficient. The time it takes to walk back to the garage to refill kills any efficiency with the whizz.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Thick n Dense said:


> I'm thinking about trying a 50/50 Urea Milo Mix or like 25/75 (haven't done the math yet) to avoid using the Whizz... works great no doubt but a regular spreader is more efficient. The time it takes to walk back to the garage to refill kills any efficiency with the whizz.


I had this thought at one time too and saw an article about how this doesn't work the way you would hope. Bottom line was the heavier material funnels down and gets spread more, so you get an uneven distribution. Half your lawn would get mostly milo and the other half would get mostly urea. Who knows if its true but it seemed logical enough to scare me off the idea. I will see if I can dig it up.

Edit: This isnt the article but general gist: https://www.lebanonturf.com/education-center/turf-fertilizer/choosing-the-right-granular-fertilizer

Being urea (at least what i have) and milo have way different sizes and presumably mass, it would likely be worse than that bottom picture. It would also be a huge pita to mix it up.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What? 8k lawn needs 4lb of urea to get 0.25lb of N. I fill my wizz with 5lb of AMS all the time for my yard. Walking back to the garage?


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## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

@jordan572 I also live in Andover so if you have any local questions let me know. I didn't see this thread until now. Where did you get your Urea?

I usually get mine at the Anoka Grain and Feed store.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

jordan572 said:


> Thank you all for the help, I was able to track some down today at a local feed store. I am going to apply tonight at a rate of 1#/K. Just will have to figure out where to set my dial on my chapin spreader!


If your putting down 1lb/k make sure you water in right away and get your mower warmed up :lol: 
Probably best to do 0.5lb/k bi-weekly

As for your spreader, especially with urea, start low. Get used to using it. 
You want to try spreading in a North/South, East,West manner, and watch the outside edge of where the fertilizer is landing. You don't want to overlap.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

ABC123 said:


> you can get urea from nutrien in big lake, they also sell anything else your looking for in terms of fertilizer.


Thank you, I seen that company's name on the bag when I was opening it.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

jrubb42 said:


> @jordan572 I also live in Andover so if you have any local questions let me know. I didn't see this thread until now. Where did you get your Urea?
> 
> I usually get mine at the Anoka Grain and Feed store.


That is where I ended up getting mine yesterday as well thank you though for the insight, I am actually in Ham Lake but same zip code as Andover so we must be very close!


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> jordan572 said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you all for the help, I was able to track some down today at a local feed store. I am going to apply tonight at a rate of 1#/K. Just will have to figure out where to set my dial on my chapin spreader!
> ...


Oh I must have misunderstood when you said .5#/k I thought you meant .5# of Nitrogen so I put down 1# of urea. Did you mean .5# of urea? I watered about 3/4'' after application, mower will be ready


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## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

jordan572 said:


> jrubb42 said:
> 
> 
> > @jordan572 I also live in Andover so if you have any local questions let me know. I didn't see this thread until now. Where did you get your Urea?
> ...


Nice. I'm actually right off 161st and Crosstown/Prairie Rd so we're probably even closer than you think! You were right putting down 1lb of Urea. That gives you .46#'s of nitrogen. Just did the same thing on my yard this morning.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

g-man said:


> What? 8k lawn needs 4lb of urea to get 0.25lb of N. I fill my wizz with 5lb of AMS all the time for my yard. Walking back to the garage?


Is AMS more dense? Less fill ups? I've never used...

Also, I tend to go heavy handed on the Urea, less often...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

AMS is 21% nitrogen by weight vs 46% in urea. Yes you need more weight to get the same qty of nitrogen.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Hi all, back at it this year and needing some more advise. I took the advise given here and did the fall blitz application last year to wrap things up. To start this season off I have thatched the yard and put down some pre emergent a couple weeks ago. Since then I have been watering consistently and pulling weeds here and there by hand.

I live in the north suburbs north of Minneapolis, it has been a very dry and rather cool spring so far. The yard has taken off what seems to be substantially better than past years and is growing at a very fast rate considering almost all year it has been 65 degrees or cooler. My question is when do I stop waiting for these dead spot to revive? I plan to rake them soon and over-seed, am I being too eager still? Unfortunately I think late last summer I applied fertilome weed killer in too much heat and fryed these spots. They never did brown like this last year at all but I could definitely tell I wounded the grass. Now this year it's showing no life so far, should I cut my losses and rake and seed or wait? Yard is still growing very inconsistent everywhere. I am on the early side of things I feel but I want this yard to be thick and green this year like it has always been. I really appreciate any insight!


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## cleohioturf (Jul 20, 2020)

are those spots for sure where you believe you may have over applied?

Have you put any nitrogen down this year?


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

The first two pictures I am almost certain that was where I sprayed weed killer. I have done a pre emergent with nitrogen mixed in. Not a nitrogen only application though. When should that start?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Is the weather good for growing ? (68F average). If yes, then it should grow ~1 -1.5in per week. If not growing at that rate, apply nitrogen to get that rate.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

g-man said:


> Is the weather good for growing ? (68F average). If yes, then it should grow ~1 -1.5in per week. If not growing at that rate, apply nitrogen to get that rate.


I would say I am cutting 1.5" or so a week. The warmer weather finally arrived today and the rest of this week. Things are heading in the right direction and starting to even out. I adjusted some sprinkler heads in dry areas and will see how it all progresses.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Another update 1 week since my previous pictures. The last 3 days it has been extremely humid with no rain but heavy clouds and a few sprinkles. Since the sun has gone away I feel the color variation throughout the yard has increased although this may be just because the grass needs mowing. It is coming in fuller since last week.

I have noticed substantial variations in grass growth as you can see in the pictures. Some parts are light green, others very dark and other areas the tips of the grass are seeding. What do the seeds indicate? What is still very odd is basically all areas I used the Scott's seed patch last year, those areas are very dark and growing profusely. For example around the well cap in one of the pictures. Since last week I have maintained watering approximately 1.5" a week and adjusted a few heads that were causing dry spots. It has been cool all week. I definitely need some heat and sun.

I just put down some 30-0-3 fertilizer, at a rate of 1# of nitrogen per 1,000 square feet. I feel last year I really dropped the ball and starved the lawn of nitrogen and I believe that is why all patched areas with the Scott's seed patch are growing so strong this year.

I opted for just normal fertilizer instead of a weed and feed and have spot treated some areas of weeds with fertilome and a sprayer. The rest I usually just pull by hand. The fertilome tends to work very slowly but the clover is starting to yellow and weaken. Rather minor areas anyway.

Any tips for now? Trying to see if an influx of nitrogen, some good watering practices and some heat and sun will get me back to uniform green and fullness. Thank you for all the help so far.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

It should take about 7-8 weeks to fill in those spots if the soil has enough N. But I can't stress it enough how amazing foliar nitrogen is.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

ABC123 said:


> It should take about 7-8 weeks to fill in those spots if the soil has enough N. But I can't stress it enough how amazing foliar nitrogen is.


Do you think I should be over applying Nitrogen this year compensate for lack of application the previous year?


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

No. I wouldn't over apply N. Spraying foliar weekly at .1-.2lb/m is the most beneficial way to feed the plant. Allows for a consistent growth without any surges of growth.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I agree with @ABC123. Over applying N to make up for previous years is pointless. Nitrogen doesn't last that long in the soil. If you are deficient, it has more to do with not applying enough N this year, not last year.

The other thing you can do is cut frequently. This will also encourage the grass to fill.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Here for another update, water steady making sure to get down 1-1.5" a week as it has been dry with no rain. Adjusted the heads in some areas to apply more to the dry looking areas. Weeds are very under control for now.

The variations of light and dark green are still apparent and only slowly subsiding. Where ever it is light green it is growing quite slowly. Maybe an inch at best a week. The dark areas are growing probably 3" or more a week. I am still bagging and that is a problem, I have noticed in my compost pile that there is a lot of fertilizer granulars in there. I am trying to wait at least 5 days from now on to mow after fertilizing to not suck up the fertilizer.

Just a few areas have a lot of variation so far this year. Which is odd I've always had uniform dark green grass. I have about 22k square feet, not too giddy to do liquid applications but will figure out a way if that is the recommendations. Check out the pictures just a few areas that aren't working with me. Should probably let this fertilizer take though I used a 30-0-3 1 week before these pictures.

Only thing I am trying to accomplish is uniform dark green grass now. It is filling out well, no weeds just need that uniform color. Thank you for any tips!


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## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

Sorry to tell you but that bag of Scotts is nothing but junky stuff and certainly will not give you the dark uniform color you are hoping for.


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

situman said:


> Sorry to tell you but that bag of Scotts is nothing but junky stuff and certainly will not give you the dark uniform color you are hoping for.


That was just some seed patching for some bare spots here and there. The odd thing is every spot that was used on is extremely thick and dark green.

I am up for any recommendations no matter how expensive or cheap the product may be!


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Is there any logical manner to go about fertilizing without a soil sample? For 3 years (the entire age of the lawn) I have simply only applied N no P or K or any other treatments. The lawn was sodded with 3" of black dirt base over sand


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## jordan572 (Aug 23, 2020)

Came home to this area that I hit with some more nitrogen an few days ago. I think I overdid it?!

Now what just keep watering it as much as possible and wait until it comes back?


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