# overseed TTTF slow to mature in existing lawn



## critterdude311 (Apr 21, 2018)

Last fall (Sept 2017), I over-seeded two cultivars of TTTF in to my existing (northern mix) lawn:
* Regenerate
* 4th Millenium

Since I had a decent stand of turf already, I overseeded pretty heavily. I threw down approximately 25 lbs every 2 weeks for a total of 100 lbs in total over 5000SQFT of area (front and back).

Initially, I was disappointed with the results. There were only a few noticeable spots in the yard I could point to and say definitively were tall fescue. Interestingly, with the recent heat wave we've had in the Northeast, it seems like the tables have turned and the tall fescue is starting to become much more prominent in the yard. I can definitely see the change over the past few weeks since I've been watching it closely (I don't think the casual eye would notice it).

I guess my question is this: Is it possible the TTTF was just slow to mature? I figured going as heavy as I did on the seeding rate, in spite of the existing turf, the TTTF would become the dominant species, but I've just been surprised by how slow this process has been up until now.

If the heat wave continues, I think the TTTF will continue to become more prominent until it is eventually the main turf type in the yard. I plan to throw down another 50lbs this fall to help encourage this process. I'm curious if anyone else has attempted seeding TTTF in to an existing mix yard, and if they were able to see visible results within a year or what can be done to encourage it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Having done pretty much exactly what you've done, my experience is that TTTF is the second hardest seed type to overseed with after KBG, and that it's the weakest competitor compared to all of the other cool-season types we normally use in mixes, at least in the first few years. My experience is consistent with yours in all the ways you mentioned. I do feel it's worth it, though.

That said, I feel like if you need 20 lbs per thousand, something isn't right, and you may be wasting a lot of seed. What's your overseed method? Because TTTF hates "throw down and forget it". Doing it properly, I've never needed more than 7 lbs per thousand. And even that is a high rate for overseeding.


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## critterdude311 (Apr 21, 2018)

Green said:


> Having done pretty much exactly what you've done, my experience is that TTTF is the second hardest seed type to overseed with after KBG, and that it's the weakest competitor compared to all of the other cool-season types we normally use in mixes, at least in the first few years. My experience is consistent with yours in all the ways you mentioned. I do feel it's worth it, though.
> 
> That said, I feel like if you need 20 lbs per thousand, something isn't right, and you may be wasting a lot of seed. What's your overseed method? Because TTTF hates "throw down and forget it". Doing it properly, I've never needed more than 7 lbs per thousand. And even that is a high rate for overseeding.


Oh yea, I am totally guilty of doing the 'spray and pray' method of seeding. I purposely threw down excess seed, knowing a lot would be wasted, but hoping if I had a decent germination rate it could become the main species in the yard. To this point it hasn't happened, but I definitely see a slight change the last few weeks with the increased heat.

For this year's overseed in the fall, my plan is to heavily dethatch and aerate followed by another heavy overseed. I don't mind putting down excess seed if it will help the TTTF take over. I realize renovation would probably be the better route here, but I don't trust my skills enough yet to do it. A full renovation is probably a few years down the line once I have more experience. In the mean time, any advice is appreciated!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

The TTTF will never totally dominate, but if your yard is thin, and you aerate and dethatch, and use enough but not too much seed (like I said, around 7 lbs rate worked well for me) it can become a main component.

Some areas, I've had to overseed several years in order to get enough TTTF into the lawn. It just doesn't compete well with KBG, PR, and fine fescues.

I had the opportunity (actually necessity) to renovate two areas, and that was enough for me; it took care of the renovation itch. I did TTTF/KBG.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Green said:


> I feel like if you need 20 lbs per thousand, something isn't right, and you may be wasting a lot of seed.


I agree. In addition, I suggest that Fescue seeded at such a high rate will be too thick to survive--or at least much of it. There is just too much competition with other seedlings, in addition to the needs of the existing turf. By comparison, I used somewhere between 100 and 115 pounds of fescue seed in a 18k renovation. I was on the higher end of suggested rates. And I had a very thick stand of turf by the spring--probably even too thick for the heat and dampness of late spring/early summer.

I seeded in late September (22nd), and my grass was very slow to grow and establish. Individuals who seeded a week earlier in my region did not seem to experience the slow growth. I'm betting that you might have more luck seeding a bit earlier this year. @ericgautier lives in East Brunswick, I believe, and has seeded around mid-August. You might want to read through the steps and dates in his thread.

I don't have any experiencing seeding into KBG, but I do think you are on the right track in terms of aeration and dethatching. However, I'd rank patience as a better ally than a very high seeding rate in your effort to become fescue-dominant.

It might also be wise to get your soil tested if you haven't.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

social port said:


> I don't have any experiencing seeding into KBG, but I do think you are on the right track in terms of aeration and dethatching. However, I'd rank patience as a better ally than a very high seeding rate in your effort to become fescue-dominant.
> 
> It might also be wise to get your soil tested if you haven't.


Again, I agree with this. I think the rates Social Port and I have used (6-7 lbs per thousand max...no more), combined with the above practices, and using peat moss over top, will produce good success.

Also mowing low and possibly applying a PGR before seeding.

I did all of it on one of my latest overseeds last year. Other areas, I did some of the things, and it still worked. The peat moss was used on all successful areas.

One of my overseeds from last year involved a manual dethatch with the Groundskeeper II rake, a low mow, PGR, just under 6 lbs lbs per thousand of TTTF seed, a half to 2/3 lb per thousand of KBG seed, peat moss, no aeration, and seeding into an existing mix of mostly KBG and TTPR. It was pretty successful...there's a lot of TTTF in the area now. I did it because the lawn color was lighter than the reno area next to it, and I wanted to make it darker to match better. Also because I had used herbicides that had resulted in a lot of damage to the good grass and it needed more density.


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

Green said:


> Also mowing low and possibly applying a PGR before seeding.
> 
> a low mow, PGR, just under 6 lbs lbs per thousand of TTTF seed,


@Green , @ken-n-nancy and others:

Mowing low, applying a PGR and then overseeding TTTF into an existing TTTF lawn, what would be the recommended low-cut (quasi-scalp) height?


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

PokeGrande said:


> @Green , @ken-n-nancy and others:
> 
> Mowing low, applying a PGR and then overseeding TTTF into an existing TTTF lawn, what would be the recommended low-cut (quasi-scalp) height?


Hmm. I don't have any TTTF experience, so I don't really have any first-hand advice to give regarding TTTF.

Furthermore, overseeding is something that I've tried but never quite gotten right (ok, in honesty, my 2 attempts at overseeding left things worse instead of better), so you better rely on the advice of others for overseeding!

I have heard of testimonials here and other sites of many folks that have done successful overseeds that have greatly improved their lawns, so I know it can be done!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

PokeGrande said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Also mowing low and possibly applying a PGR before seeding.
> ...


Roughly a 2-inch HOC setting would work well. Also, not sure if you're doing it but I would suggest a bit of peat moss, especially on bare or thin spots after the seed is put down. Really helps keep it from drying out.

I would use the full rate of PGR, and apply it after mowing. Then wait 3 or 4 days and mow again. If you need to take it down to height in two steps, this will also allow you to do that. (It takes a few days for the PGR to activate.) Then you can seed.

To me, a major benefit of the PGR is that you avoid stressing your existing lawn.


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

Green said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


2 inches is what sounded good in my head. Not a true scalp but still low enough so it doesn't shade the germinating seed. Also, on the same page with your re: PGR. Thanks for confirmation.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Every fall, I go from a 4" or higher cut down to 1.75-2" in 1 mow. I then use a dethatcher or verticutter and rake off all the loose mess. With the dirt exposed, I seed and cover with peat. It works really well. With that scalp, all the green is gone and the yard is just stems. It looks terrible and takes about 4 weeks for the grass to be green again but by then, you've had 2-3 weeks of the new grass growing. I'm sure some of the older grass dies because it was really stressed but there are so many new plants, it looks even thicker every year. I haven't tried PGR but that would be useful.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Every fall, I go from a 4" or higher cut down to 1.75-2" in 1 mow. I then use a dethatcher or verticutter and rake off all the loose mess. With the dirt exposed, I seed and cover with peat. It works really well. With that scalp, all the green is gone and the yard is just stems. It looks terrible and takes about 4 weeks for the grass to be green again but by then, you've had 2-3 weeks of the new grass growing. I'm sure some of the older grass dies because it was really stressed but there are so many new plants, it looks even thicker every year. I haven't tried PGR but that would be useful.


I've never shaved it that low before but I will try that this season. Makes perfect sense. Two inches more or less if it's not crazy hot should do no lasting damage.

Also I've never been shy about mowing newly germinated TTTF seeded into an existing lawn. Shade is new grass's enemy much more than the mower. My experience with it confirms exactly your's - two weeks or so for TTTF if the weather is not cold and it's off to the races with remarkable growth.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > Every fall, I go from a 4" or higher cut down to 1.75-2" in 1 mow. I then use a dethatcher or verticutter and rake off all the loose mess. With the dirt exposed, I seed and cover with peat. It works really well. With that scalp, all the green is gone and the yard is just stems. It looks terrible and takes about 4 weeks for the grass to be green again but by then, you've had 2-3 weeks of the new grass growing. I'm sure some of the older grass dies because it was really stressed but there are so many new plants, it looks even thicker every year. I haven't tried PGR but that would be useful.
> ...


It definitely looks like you destroyed your yard! All brown stems and dirt. 6-8 weeks later when the new grass has thickened and tillered, it is super thick and the envy of the street. Every year! The joys of fescue...


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Every fall, I go from a 4" or higher cut down to 1.75-2" in 1 mow. I then use a dethatcher or verticutter and rake off all the loose mess. With the dirt exposed, I seed and cover with peat. It works really well. With that scalp, all the green is gone and the yard is just stems. It looks terrible and takes about 4 weeks for the grass to be green again but by then, you've had 2-3 weeks of the new grass growing. I'm sure some of the older grass dies because it was really stressed but there are so many new plants, it looks even thicker every year. I haven't tried PGR but that would be useful.


I don't doubt this works, but I would much prefer lowering the cut over 2-3 weeks to reduce stress.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

I've never gone below 2.5" for an overseed. I keep my lawn between 4" to 4.5" during the summer months and dropping it to 2.5" all at once seems to throw it into shock which takes about 2 weeks to recover. With TTTF I get germination in 6 to 7 days. The key is keeping the seed moist. If you get that right it comes up pretty quick. By the time the established grass gets going the new seedlings have already caught up.

The only time I aerate before an overseed is when I spread compost. After spreading the compost I run a spike aerator over it to push a little below the surface. Aerating or not, after I spread the seed I run over it with the mower to press the seed into the soil. A lawn roller works good too but since I have a 1,300lbs zero turn I see no reason to spend the extra money renting a roller. IMO rolling the seed in to get good contact is probably the best thing you can do for a successful overseed next to keeping it moist.

Here's a photo from last fall where I overseeded the top section of lawn near the road. The brown patches are where I nuked some bermuda and the black areas are where I spread compost. The entire lawn was cut at 4" two days before cutting the overseed area to 2.5" so you can see how bad it looks. You can also see my "******* sprinkler system" in action.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> It definitely looks like you destroyed your yard! All brown stems and dirt. 6-8 weeks later when the new grass has thickened and tillered, it is super thick and the envy of the street. Every year! The joys of fescue...


You're reminding me a few years ago I was cutting and the blade height handle snagged a low tree branch and the deck dropped to the ground as I was moving. By the time I realized what happened and stopped, I scalped a good hundred square feet, maybe more, basically right to the dirt. In my mind I wrote it off as surely killed. Nope, grew back just fine. I forget how long it took but couldn't have been too long or I would remember. Fescue is an amazing plant.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I don't overseed, but I think that @ForsheeMS approach is very logical to me. It is similar to a heavy dose of pgr.


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## chriscarigs (Jul 10, 2018)

I'm planning a similar overseed here in August. What is the rate of peat moss I should be putting down as a top dressing? Trying to plan how much to buy and have no idea.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> I've never gone below 2.5" for an overseed. I keep my lawn between 4" to 4.5" during the summer months...


This brings up a good point. Your habitual Summer height can impact how low your grass will tolerate going in a semi scalp. Since my mower tops out at 3.75 in or so, 2.25 in is a 1.5 inch difference from Summer HOC. Everything is relative.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

chriscarigs said:


> I'm planning a similar overseed here in August. What is the rate of peat moss I should be putting down as a top dressing? Trying to plan how much to buy and have no idea.


It takes a good amount. I think I barely get away with 1 large bale over 1K area...if that. I always run out and have to get more.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> A lawn roller works good too but since I have a 1,300lbs zero turn I see no reason to spend the extra money renting a roller. IMO rolling the seed in to get good contact is probably the best thing you can do for a successful overseed next to keeping it moist.


I tried stepping on it everwhere. Gets old real fast! So I rely on the peat moss to close it off.


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## jjp2222 (Jul 19, 2018)

How much peat moss do you put down and how? Can I use my crappy $35 Scott's walkbehind rotary ?


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## jaygrizzle (Jun 6, 2018)

Peat moss has been mentioned a lot in these overseed threads so I figured that I would probably use it when doing my overseed this year. However it seems like it can be a PITA. I have an irrigation system that I can put on a timer to water multiple times a day. Would peat moss still be that beneficial or does watering a lot make adding peat moss less of a priority?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jjp2222 said:


> How much peat moss do you put down and how? Can I use my crappy $35 Scott's walkbehind rotary ?


Tried it. Doesn't really work due to clogs...way more effort than throwing it by hand or with a shovel. Either that or a peat spreader, maybe.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

jjp2222 said:


> How much peat moss do you put down and how? Can I use my crappy $35 Scott's walkbehind rotary ?


Throw it by hand. It is a PITA, but much less so than compost. I like compost better, but it's hard to spread, heavier, you need more of it and it can contain weed seeds.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

jaygrizzle said:


> Peat moss has been mentioned a lot in these overseed threads so I figured that I would probably use it when doing my overseed this year. However it seems like it can be a PITA. I have an irrigation system that I can put on a timer to water multiple times a day. Would peat moss still be that beneficial or does watering a lot make adding peat moss less of a priority?


I've never used anything to cover the seed nor do I have an irrigation system. I do set up the spike type sprinklers and water 2 to 5 times daily depending on weather. Temp, wind and humidity will effect how quickly the seeds dry out and determine how often you need to water. Since you have an irrigation system just plan according to the forecast and program it as needed. A little too moist is always better than a little too dry but you don't want to drown the seed. With that in mind, peat moss is just an extra expense and work. Now if you didn't have programmable irrigation and couldn't water multiple times per day peat moss would be more beneficial.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@ForsheeMS I seeded my bare spots with KBG July 31st (2 areas), think they've drowned with all the rain we've had? haha


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Green said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> > I've never gone below 2.5" for an overseed. I keep my lawn between 4" to 4.5" during the summer months...
> ...


You're dead on. My mower goes up to a 5.5" HOC. With no irrigation and our summer temps in the 90's for weeks and no rain I tend to let it go tall to help survive. We have had a ton of rain the last 2 weeks after a month of drought. My last cut was at 4.75" and most of the lawn was around 7". I really needed to cut again Wednesday but it hasn't stopped raining long enough. My late fall and early spring HOC is 3.5" and that's only for a couple weeks.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> @ForsheeMS I seeded my bare spots with KBG July 31st (2 areas), think they've drowned with all the rain we've had? haha


Very possible. I haven't seen this much rain in years!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> You're dead on. My mower goes up to a 5.5" HOC.


Wow, that's awesome! The only one I was aware of was the Massport, but Pete of GCI was not impressed by the suction. What other mowers go up that high? Many consumer 21 inch mowers top out between 3 and 4 inches, unless you, like, change the wheels or something. And even most professional mowers don't seem to go above 4.5 in.

Here in CT, 3.75 in is fine for irrigated Tall Fescue most years, so we can get away with about a half inch lower than in NC in an average Summer. But non irrigated turf really needs to be mowed above 4 inches to survive. We are not supposed to get more than around 20 days a year of 90 or higher, but it looks like we're going to be beating that this year. We had several 2-3 week stretches this June and July without rain, and it was bad. My lawn is still partially dormant, even irrigated parts, as I can't keep up as it takes too much water, and probably will be for another month. If I could have mowed just 0.25 in higher in July, I think it would have helped.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > @ForsheeMS I seeded my bare spots with KBG July 31st (2 areas), think they've drowned with all the rain we've had? haha
> ...


Haha, we'll see if I have any germination in the next few days. With all the rain, cooler temps and surrounding bluegrass I figured, what the hell?


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Green said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> > You're dead on. My mower goes up to a 5.5" HOC.
> ...


Mine's a commercial zero turn. I get my exercise walking the dogs every morning.  When it comes time to mow I prefer sitting! The extra HOC is nice for our weather conditions but as you start getting above 4" the cut quality does go down a little. By then the heat stress is usually getting to it so survival becomes more important than looks.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> Haha, we'll see if I have any germination in the next few days. With all the rain, cooler temps and surrounding bluegrass I figured, what the hell?


If anything I would be more concerned that the seed got washed away with all the heavy rain. If it stayed in place I think you'll be fine.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

ForsheeMS said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > Haha, we'll see if I have any germination in the next few days. With all the rain, cooler temps and surrounding bluegrass I figured, what the hell?
> ...


I covered it in the thatch that I raked up and the area looks pretty undisturbed, but we'll see


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> > I've never gone below 2.5" for an overseed. I keep my lawn between 4" to 4.5" during the summer months...
> ...


Wouldnt you want to stunt your existing grass anyways during an overseed? Obviously dont scalp it so it dies, but i'd think going short to shock it and maybe give yourself another week or two before it recovers and starts growing again could give your seed time to see the light.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > ForsheeMS said:
> ...


I think the point was that with the PGR, cutting so low or so much all at once might not be necessary.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


True, but i'd think both would be even better. Give your seedlings 3+ weeks to get some sunlight.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > FuzzeWuzze said:
> ...


With both TTTF and rye they germinate and grow quickly. My 2013 reno the first cut was exactly 2 weeks from seed down. Not that PGR wouldn't work but I feel it's an extra expense that's really not necessary. You would be far better investing that money in a higher quality seed or the new piece of lawn equipment you've been stewing over.

Now KBG would be a totally different story and probably a necessity for a successful overseed.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

What the general consenus about PGR vs. lowering HOC for overseeding?

Do I need PGR to keep the exisiting TTTF down while my new overseeds take flight?
or
is lowering the HOC from 4" to 2.5" does the same thing?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

rockinmylawn said:


> What the general consenus about PGR vs. lowering HOC for overseeding?
> 
> Do I need PGR to keep the exisiting TTTF down while my new overseeds take flight?
> or
> is lowering the HOC from 4" to 2.5" does the same thing?


I'd say if you have PGR, use it...in conjunction with the 2.5 inch setting. In other words, mow at 2.5 in, and then apply the PGR.

If you don't have PGR, don't feel compelled to have to buy it. If you stop watering in the heat, it will help prevent growth, too.


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