# Most Basic Fundamental Factor of Lawn Care



## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

Hi everyone. I'm new here, and fairly new to Lawn Care. I reside in the cool grass location of Oregon, up in the Cascade Mountains at 1,500 foot elevation where we have a very rainy season that lasts from October to June. I worked my way into a pretty good job with a facility as a groundskeeper and when I started a couple years ago the place was in desperate need of some love. 
First I worked on the flower beds and other various projects and this year I decided to tackle the 10,000 square foot lawn. No exaggeration the lawn consists of about 75% moss and 25% grass. The moss is about 2 1/2" thick. So I began my research and the first step was ordering a thatcher off of Amazon, which works amazing but when I was done I realized that the moss was so established that a thatcher wouldn't be good enough. 
Once I got to what I thought was the soil level I inspected it and realized that there was at least another 1 1/2" that needed to come out because it is also trash - thick moss in the process of biodegrading. So next I decided to buy a Tiller off of Amazon (handle etc. falls apart - but modifiable and doable fortunately). I should've cut out a square of the lawn 4 inches deep then I would've saw it but had no idea it could be that bad lol. Anyway, so I tilled the next two inches, made a good grade, removed it and then ordered a good "Turf Builder" soil from the local landscape supply. 
Ok so I said all of that just so you could have a good understanding of the project and situation. The main reason for this post is to do somewhat of a survey. As I said I'm studying Lawn Care and Horticulture on my spare time, although I have done this type of work before and have even done irrigation professionally, my knowledge is only scratching the surface. My survey question goes out mainly to everyone who "owns" a Lawn Care business but feel free to comment your opinion. Ok so here's the question: what is the most fundamental knowledge/aspect of Lawn Care? In other words, if you had to teach someone only one thing about Lawn Care what would it be? Be very specific too and provide any relevant information that goes along with it 
The reason why I'm asking is because I've been having to deal with a "peanut gallery" of people thinking they know what they are talking about and interfering in my work. One of them initiated the conversation like, "hey I owned my own Lawn Care business before let me show you how I'd do it." - he actually said he'd just add dirt on top of the moss (which really isn't possible because it would raise the front yard up over house grade so water would flow to the house, and it would be higher than the brick path going across the yard... plus how can you think to plant grass on too of moss?!!! that's crazy right?!!! Lol then others (exalting their self - but revealing stupidity) were telling me all I had to do is kill the moss. I guess they think it just disappears when you kill it or something? Then another said Sod is much better than fresh soil and starting from seed, which I looked up and found the topic debatable obviously. 
Sorry about writing a book but I really need your opinions. After getting fed up with what I consider foolishness I decided to ask the guy who supposedly owned a Lawn Care business a question that I thought would reveal if he was telling the truth - "what's the most fundamental knowledge/aspect of Lawn Care? Well he didn't even have one answer, and when I told him my answer he didn't even know what it was. Please give me your opinions and if the prevailing answer is what I have figured then it will be confirmation to me that I need to disregard anything that comes out of this person's mouth as well as get a little comfort from you Pros out there who actually know what they're doing. After 10 answers I'll get the conclusion. Also, feel free to conversate about anything I've said. Thanks in advance!


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Sorry - I think your question is kinda a "gotcha" question and I can understand why he didn't answer. There is no magic better-than-all-other answer. I know you don't mean it this way, but to ask us our answers to see how it compares to your super secret answer (at least to me) is a bit off-putting. Again, I know you don't mean it that way.

If you asked me, it would simply be read, research, don't be a know-it-all, read some more, and research even more, and don't ask "gotcha" questions.

I think you are looking at the "peanut gallery" wrong. Even id you disagree with them, they are trying to help and offering advice. Who knows, you may even find a nugget of useful info in what they share with you.

I hope you're able to find the answers and info you are looking for.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Just to point something out here:










If you're looking for opinion from a bunch of "pros" because only "pro lawn care people" know how to take care of a yard properly, you're on the wrong forum.

I know a ton of people who thinks wearing a company shirt makes somebody an expert. My father in law was that way after my wife and I first got married. When he started to realize the jobs I did for him and around our house were better than what he was paying subs for, he kind of snapped out of the, "pros know best" mentality.

Another thing to keep in mind. Owning a Lawn Care Business is just that, a BUSINESS. Which means they are trying to turn a profit. Some cut corners, some live in areas where people are willing to pay for good quality work, some don't.

At the end of the day, you're just a somebody, by your own admission, that is studying lawn care and horticulture. I can promise you all of the information or help you're looking for can be found on these forums. I can also tell you the, "better than everybody," "I'll get 10 answers then decide" kind of approach isn't going to get you very far here.

If you genuinely want help establishing and maintaining the best yard you can, I promise you that information exists from the members of this forum community. If you're just looking for confirmation that your way is the right way and everybody else is a dimwit (legit how you're coming across), then I don't think you'll find many willing to help.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Mother Nature has a vote/veto power for your plan.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

Amoo316 said:


> Just to point something out here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


100% true. Having been in the industry myself, I will tell you most lawn care "pros" only know how to mow - and even that may be pushing it. Even today when I hire "real professional companies" to do landscape and tree/planting work I either don't feel like doing or is more than I want to tackle, most have zero knowledge on anything other than taking a chainsaw to anything that is green so I end up supervising the job myself (which I am OK with).

I credit this forum with teaching me more than I ever knew when I was in the industry. This forum is a good a resource as you will ever find with members that are fantastic (except for a certain someone that owns Sthil - but since he is team orange I was able to come to terms with it and push forward for the sake of the budding friendship.)


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

DFW_Zoysia said:


> (except for a certain someone that owns Sthil - but since he is team orange I was able to come to terms with it and push forward for the sake of the budding friendship.)


LOL dude I legit spit water out on my desk. Was not expecting that. Gold, solid gold.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

Well sorry if I came across the wrong way, some of you guys definitely have me figured wrong. This reminds me of the Twilight Zone &#128518;


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

The most fundamental aspect of lawn care is simply giving the lawn your time & attention.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

DFW_Zoysia said:


> Sorry - I think your question is kinda a "gotcha" question and I can understand why he didn't answer. There is no magic better-than-all-other answer. I know you don't mean it this way, but to ask us our answers to see how it compares to your super secret answer (at least to me) is a bit off-putting. Again, I know you don't mean it that way.
> 
> If you asked me, it would simply be read, research, don't be a know-it-all, read some more, and research even more, and don't ask "gotcha" questions.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your comment. I think your twisting the "know it all" a little though because I made myself clear enough. Yes your right and I do learn from my environment every day. These three or four people though are intentionally trying to get me run off and they make it obvious. My boss did actually fire one yesterday because I tried to have a respectful conversation with him but he freaked out. It's ok I get it I come across the wrong way all the time. I'm just a very straightforward person and call it what it is. thanks again for the positivity that's good stuff.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

NiallNOR said:


> DFW_Zoysia said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry - I think your question is kinda a "gotcha" question and I can understand why he didn't answer. There is no magic better-than-all-other answer. I know you don't mean it this way, but to ask us our answers to see how it compares to your super secret answer (at least to me) is a bit off-putting. Again, I know you don't mean it that way.
> ...


I was not calling you a know-it-all. I meant it in general.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

Wouldn't everyone agree that the answer should be soil quality and PH testing. Anyone wanting to be serious about Lawn Care should obviously know about this in my opinion. If a person doesn't know what PH is and the parameters then your just cutting people's grass and doing general landscaping. How can anyone think to actually own a Lawn Care business and not do research and study about PH? If your into Lawn Care and you haven't heard of this then to me that means you haven't actually wanted to learn Lawn Care. Can anyone disagree with that? Isn't that very reasonable to say? I'm not trying to say if you don't you don't know what your doing and shouldn't do Lawn Care work. It's not like that, I'm just saying once a person decides to own a Lawn Care business and you don't actually have the motivation to learn these basics then your not going to be that successful. Learning about PH is directly related to the desire to "really" know Lawn Care.


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

NiallNOR said:


> Wouldn't everyone agree that the answer should be soil quality and PH testing. Anyone wanting to be serious about Lawn Care should obviously know about this in my opinion. If a person doesn't know what PH is and the parameters then your just cutting people's grass and doing general landscaping. How can anyone think to actually own a Lawn Care business and not do research and study about PH? If your into Lawn Care and you haven't heard of this then to me that means you haven't actually wanted to learn Lawn Care. Can anyone disagree with that? Isn't that very reasonable to say? I'm not trying to say if you don't you don't know what your doing and shouldn't do Lawn Care work. It's not like that, I'm just saying once a person decides to own a Lawn Care business and you don't actually have the motivation to learn these basics then your not going to be that successful. Learning about PH is directly related to the desire to "really" know Lawn Care.


I think you've received answers to your question. I am being respectful and not trying to be a jerk - so take this as a simple calm adult conversation - but you are digging yourself a hole here.

We answered you and it appears you didn't like our answers.

I disagree that your pH question is the most fundamental meaning of life question on par with "was life created by God or the Big Bang" that you used as a gotcha litmus test of your contractors to see if they are worthy. And yet - there are plenty of land care businesses that survive just fine without trying to ascertain the meaning of life.

I will also say you pointed out above that one of the people you didn't feel was worth enough to step on your lawn was fired. I may be wrong, but the only way he would be fired is if you called up the owner and made a big enough stink about it. When I had my business and we came across people who acted like that -we would pretend we fired the work but didn't really - we simply had then do other accounts instead. Why would we do that? 99% of the time it was the homeowner causing trouble and being ridiculous and that was an easier solution then trying to tell the owner there were being obnoxious. Or, we'd simply fire the home owner as a client if it happened enough.

I think you are looking for an argument to prove your point to yourself, and to force us to agree with you. I can simply speak for myself and say there is no one magical answer to a 'gotcha' question, and in life I don't play in conversations set up that way. I still don't know to what end you getting the right answer affects your lawn - other than to make you feel you were superior to your contractors.

I apologize it this comes across as harsh - but take it from me (as someone who has learned over the years the hard way to be careful how you come across online) you are coming across poorly. I am not judging you and this is certainly not the twilight zone as you stated. We'd love to have you in this community, but I think you're going about it in the wrong way for your first posts.

Just my opinion, which has zero value so take it for what it's worth. Again, I do wish you the best in your journey.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

DFW_Zoysia said:


> NiallNOR said:
> 
> 
> > Wouldn't everyone agree that the answer should be soil quality and PH testing. Anyone wanting to be serious about Lawn Care should obviously know about this in my opinion. If a person doesn't know what PH is and the parameters then your just cutting people's grass and doing general landscaping. How can anyone think to actually own a Lawn Care business and not do research and study about PH? If your into Lawn Care and you haven't heard of this then to me that means you haven't actually wanted to learn Lawn Care. Can anyone disagree with that? Isn't that very reasonable to say? I'm not trying to say if you don't you don't know what your doing and shouldn't do Lawn Care work. It's not like that, I'm just saying once a person decides to own a Lawn Care business and you don't actually have the motivation to learn these basics then your not going to be that successful. Learning about PH is directly related to the desire to "really" know Lawn Care.
> ...


Yes you are, but I'm not going to write a book about it I'd rather just love you and say bless you in the name of Yahushua. We're all different with different opinions. In my opinion it's a no brainer that soil quality is not only the most fundamental aspect but it's "probably" one of the first things that anyone with extensive Lawn Care knowledge would check on during the first inspection. If you think I'm a jerk or whatever for thinking that, and calling B.S. on anyone who claims to know Lawn Care but doesn't know PH to be one (if not the most) of the most basic aspects of Lawn Care (especially not even knowing what it is) then so be it, I'm fine with that. Thanks for the respectful comment trying to help 🙂

I will now take the survey to the correct avenue, but yes I will also enjoy this site hopefully as I learn this stuff.

*edit: very interesting, I guess I should've just Googled "Lawn Care Basics Fundamentals" because now I'm getting confirmation that I'm not in the twilight zone lol. Every single source is saying number one - soil quality (which of course PH is a critical factor and not only a business owner but anyone learning "soil quality" will inevitably know what PH is.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

You're basically asking which part of a car fundamentally makes it go. Some would say tires. Some would say transmission. Some would say engine. All are important.

In lawn care, you need the right treatment at the right time. Recognizing a problem early, or recognizing the potential of a problem is an important part of getting the right treatment at the right time. In the scope of all of lawn care, pH is a small concern because most of the time pH doesn't explain the problem.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

Of all the different components of soil quality, pH is probably the most over rated. You can grow grass down into the mid 4s all the way up into the 9s. Doesn't mean it's ideal, doesn't mean it doesn't have it's own sets of challenges. Also doesn't mean you can't have a great, legit great lawn, with a pH outside of the "ideal" range.

Some parts of the country have to live with non-correctable pH issues due to other "mother nature" type of things, and have some of the nicest lawns you've seen.

Knowing how your macros and micros interact with they chosen type of lawn at your pH level is important, but not THE GOLDEN TICKET.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

I really appreciate those responses thanks. Good stuff I completely understand. Of course I still believe anyone with extensive knowledge of Lawn Care (ie business owner) is going to know about PH and have the ability to conversate about it instead of having the "deer in headlights look". Look everyone, I'm not trying to be a jerk it's just that people shouldn't claim to know something that they really don't (the main point is not if PH is the most fundamental, it's mostly about not knowing about soil quality and PH) This guy literally approached me while I was trying to work as well as a couple others and were insisting to push buttons (which didn't work and I tried to be nice). So now yes Im doing some probing on the issue naturally. Thanks again! I have learned from you and I appreciate it. Have a wonderful day everyone, you are awesome human beings &#128578;


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

NiallNOR said:


> *edit: very interesting, I guess I should've just Googled "Lawn Care Basics Fundamentals" because now I'm getting confirmation that I'm not in the twilight zone lol. Every single source is saying number one - soil quality (which of course PH is a critical factor and not only a business owner but anyone learning "soil quality" will inevitably know what PH is.


I think the issue is that there is no single answer to you question the way you asked it, "what's the most fundamental knowledge/aspect of Lawn Care?" It depends on what your goals are, and also your assumptions (also, "knowledge" and "aspect" are two different types of things).

For example, it can be argued that the most important "aspect" of lawn care, if your objective is to achieve a good looking lawn in the short term, is actually mowing; after all, you could have perfect soil quality, but if your mower is broken, your lawn will eventually look horrible and unsightly, it will be overrun with weeds, etc. You can hide other problems just by mowing more frequently.

Of course soil quality and the ph level are important things to know about and know how to address, but are they equally important to _everyone_? That's debatable.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Phids said:


> but are they equally important to _everyone_?


No, the answer is no. 😁

The whole premise of this thread is a giant nerd trap. It's Superman vs Batman.

A lawn is a living system. All the parts of that system are important.


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## cavince79 (Jun 18, 2019)

Milorganite is the most important factor. Loads and loads of milorganite.


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## SpiveyJr (Jun 7, 2018)

The most basic is water and N. A lawn can go a long ways with those two.


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## TulsaFan (May 1, 2017)

ionicatoms said:


> The whole premise of this thread is a giant nerd trap. It's Superman vs Batman.


*IF *we were voting or polling on this subject, I would definitely be pro Superman! :thumbup:


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## DFW_Zoysia (May 31, 2019)

TulsaFan said:


> ionicatoms said:
> 
> 
> > The whole premise of this thread is a giant nerd trap. It's Superman vs Batman.
> ...


LOL. I'd be more interested in a Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Vader vote.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

SpiveyJr said:


> The most basic is water and N. A lawn can go a long ways with those two.


Ding ding ding we've got a winner 😃 Water is definitely as basic as it gets! ...but technically that is a part of soil condition and my little meter checks that too! Hahahaaaa

Hey I'm only clowning with ya I'm not trying to crawfish outta my focus on PH you got me 😁


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

DFW_Zoysia said:


> TulsaFan said:
> 
> 
> > ionicatoms said:
> ...


Hey what about Captain Caveman! He can fly too! With a club! 🤣 Lol who can remember that?


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

ionicatoms said:


> Phids said:
> 
> 
> > but are they equally important to _everyone_?
> ...


Which character would be the one who plants grass over 3" of Moss? 🤔 saaaaay maaaybe 👹


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Oh, there is a more fundamental factor. Sunlight. Without the sun we all spin off into the universe and cease to exist.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

It's true; the ultimate Lawn guru's all know Maxwell's equations by heart.


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

bosox_5 said:


> Oh, there is a more fundamental factor. Sunlight. Without the sun we all spin off into the universe and cease to exist.


Good point it could be something as simple as the wrong seed in a shady spot, true that.

By the way, it hasn't stopped raining since I planted the seed in this new Turf Builder soil which has stayed soggy and cold the entire 5 days at about 45 degrees. Well, that is at night actually, sometimes during the day it may have reached 60° but not much. Checked one of the seeds I found on top and I can see germination had started but I'm not sure if they're ok now. Of course the blue wore off (Scott's Sun and Shade mix - coated to retain moisture - turns out didn't need that lol) and I really don't know what I'm looking at here - if the seed is still ok or not. It's wierd, you can't see it in the picture because of the angle but the two half's have started to open its just that I can't really explain what it really looks like because it's so small.


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## kstall (May 10, 2019)

I think we can all agree, paragraph spacing is a wonderful thing indeed.


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

kstall said:


> I think we can all agree, paragraph spacing is a wonderful thing indeed.


I knew I couldn't have been alone on this :lol:


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## NiallNOR (8 mo ago)

Maybe you guys should try and actually be productive members of this group instead of morons trying to make more morons - as if you can't read unless it's paragraphed right (it's actually highly likely your dumbasses who think you know lawn care but your knowledge is actually all mouth... so "hey let's prove we're little children and this is our playground.". Thank for revealing who you are though I will definitely take note of that.


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## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

NiallNOR said:


> Maybe you guys should try and actually be productive members of this group instead of morons trying to make more morons - as if you can't read unless it's paragraphed right (it's actually highly likely your dumbasses who think you know lawn care but your knowledge is actually all mouth... so "hey let's prove we're little children and this is our playground.". Thank for revealing who you are though I will definitely take note of that.


That seems like a reasonable response to you?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm locking this thread. It is not going anywhere.

Personal attacks are not tolerated in this forum.


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