# 2018 Fall Nitrogen Blitz



## g-man

It is time. Fall is approaching and so is the time to start dropping some nitrogen. For those new to the forum, this is will be a new topic to discuss and understand. I just did a revision to the thread that explains it, so give it a good read and use this thread to ask questions.

For those of us that have done this in the past, also give it a read. I did changed a step to be optional and give the rational as to why. I suggest you give it a try and share your experiences.

Start sourcing your materials so you are ready once the weather turns cooler. Members from Canada could be as early as in two weeks.

Fall Nitrogen Blitz


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## Cincinnati guy

I was looking through the fall nitrogen thread and it said not to do on newly renovated lawns. Mine was seeded last fall, would it still be considered new?

I've been doing my applications of ammonium sulfate and potash bi weekly. I wouldn't want to put down urea on top of that would I? The AS is mainly nitrogen correct?


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## Turfguy93

I've had good success with spoon feeding my renovations weekly until they are filled in. So like at germination milorganite or starter fert and then 2-4 weeks later I'll do .25-.5 lbs N weekly for 4-6 weeks. Or I've spoon fed with 10-10-10 weekly for 4 weeks at .25-.5 lbs NPK each week


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## ken-n-nancy

Cincinnati guy said:


> I was looking through the fall nitrogen thread and it said not to do on newly renovated lawns. Mine was seeded last fall, would it still be considered new?


Your nearly 1-your old lawn is an ideal one for the fall nitrogen blitz. Even a spring-seed lawn is one to do it on. The warning against the fall nitrogen blitz on a newly-renovated lawn is for one that was just seeded *this* fall (that is only about 4-8 weeks old).

The warning is against simply tossing down up to 2# of nitrogen every month in the fall on a newly-seeded lawn without paying close attention to the state of growth of the new grass. If the newly-seeded lawn is mature enough to be ready for lots of nitrogen, applying lots of nitrogen can really help it develop going into winter. However, applying too much nitrogen to a newly seeded lawn before it is ready can really wreak havoc on the new lawn going into winter.



> I've been doing my applications of ammonium sulfate and potash bi weekly. I wouldn't want to put down urea on top of that would I? The AS is mainly nitrogen correct?


That's correct. The objective of the fall nitrogen blitz is to deliver at least 1# of nitrogen per month, and optionally, up to 2# of nitrogen. Whether that is from urea or ammonium sulfate doesn't really matter. However, in figuring out your nitrogen application, you need to add the amounts of all nitrogen sources you're adding (whether urea, ammonium sulfate, Milorganite, Scotts fertilizer, etc.)


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## bluenotgreen

Once you start the N blitz, do you continue PGR on the usual schedule? Any adjustment to the dosage?

How often do you mow during the N blitz?


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## kolbasz

I am gonna kick this off for myself.

1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?

2. Calculating quantity, 1# N / .46 = 2.17, 13k * 2 = 26. I assume I am close enough that at #50, 2 bags gets me 4 app (months). Unless of course I bump slightly or add a feeding and use all of 2 bags during my blitz

3. The part you removed about the winterizer, for a few years now, I have been using starter fertilizer as my winterizer/last application. Does this follow the same thought as far as not doing it?

4. When it comes to the watering part, I can handle the front where I have irrigation, what should my plan be for the rest of the yard, wait for a time in the month due that I know it is going to rain, then run out an apply it real quickly?

5. I am planning prodiamine with my next application of PGR, this will still fall in July. I had way less POA this year than the last few, so the thought is maybe I went a hair late last year in early August. Is this still OK? Not that it impacts the blitz, just wondering more on the how early is too early or is there such a thing?


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## g-man

@Cincinnati guy @ken-n-nancy @Turfguy93 I merge the topic here to keep it all in one spot.

The Reno/overseed part in the article needs clarification. My intent is to prevent someone from killing their reno/overseed by pushing too much nitrogen at once in a young grass (weeks old). A young grass needs nitrogen, but at Turfguy93 shared, it needs it in small frequent doses (spoon feeding). I will update the main article to reflect this intent better.

I'm also thinking on adding a Tier 1 approach, which is the UNL approach. This would involve an off the shelf lawn feed fertilizer and applying at bag rate around August and a month later in September. This is my standard recommendation to friends/neighbors when they want to do something for their lawns. Thoughts?


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## g-man

@bluenotgreen as temperature drops, the PGR reapplication interval should increase. This is my first year using the GDD approach. I'm thinking I'm going to back away from PGR at the end of September.

This is the first year that I'm mowing low at 15/16in and I will drop to 3/4 in August. Last year I was at 1.75in and I was mowing 2-3 times a week.


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## jessehurlburt

kolbasz said:


> 1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?





I just got my urea for this fall and I paid $22 for #50 from a local landscaping supplier. Now I need a scale and handheld spreader. This will be my first blitz.


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## pennstater2005

Summer just started @g-man like 3 weeks ago! I am looking forward to fall though and flinging urea around :lol:


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## g-man

kolbasz said:


> I am gonna kick this off for myself.
> 
> 1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?


I would look at another place only if saving ~$10/bag is worth the time and effort. Make sure it is not the slow release coated one.



> 2. Calculating quantity, 1# N / .46 = 2.17, 13k * 2 = 26. I assume I am close enough that at #50, 2 bags gets me 4 app (months). Unless of course I bump slightly or add a feeding and use all of 2 bags during my blitz
> 
> 3. The part you removed about the winterizer, for a few years now, I have been using starter fertilizer as my winterizer/last application. Does this follow the same thought as far as not doing it?


I did not removed it. It is in post script 2 (PS2). The approach is to always use a fast source of nitrogen and not a starter one.



> 4. When it comes to the watering part, I can handle the front where I have irrigation, what should my plan be for the rest of the yard, wait for a time in the month due that I know it is going to rain, then run out an apply it real quickly?


Yes rain or run a hose sprinkler in the morning. It doesnt need a lot of water.



> 5. I am planning prodiamine with my next application of PGR, this will still fall in July. I had way less POA this year than the last few, so the thought is maybe I went a hair late last year in early August. Is this still OK? Not that it impacts the blitz, just wondering more on the how early is too early or is there such a thing?


PreM has nothing to do with the blitz. You could always do a split application (half in late July and half in sept). You just want it active before Poa start to germinate again. The problem is how to forecast the future. A raining summer with low temps normally leads to early poa a germination. The only risk with too soon is that it wears off sooner, but sooner is better than late.


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## SNOWBOB11

I'm ready to start dropping urea on my last year reno. Still a few weeks away though.


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## kolbasz

jessehurlburt said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just got my urea for this fall and I paid $22 for #50 from a local landscaping supplier. Now I need a scale and handheld spreader. This will be my first blitz.
Click to expand...




I need to find a better place it seems and find out if the stuff at site one is fast or slow release, didnt think there would be both kinds when I called them


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## ken-n-nancy

kolbasz said:


> 1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?


$31 for a 50# bag of 46-0-0 urea isn't horrible if you're in an urban area. You're practically in farm country, though, so cheaper prices should be available. I pay $19.99 at my local Agway in Milford, NH.



> 2. Calculating quantity, 1# N / .46 = 2.17, 13k * 2 = 26. I assume I am close enough that at #50, 2 bags gets me 4 app (months). Unless of course I bump slightly or add a feeding and use all of 2 bags during my blitz


Yup, for a 13k lot, I'd just apply 1/2 bag of urea. 25# is close enough to 26# not to worry about the difference.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?


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## zeus201

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?


$13 is a great price. I'd buy that up.


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## pennstater2005

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?


$13 is about what I pay. I was paying $22 but had a farmer as a patient and we got to talking about fertilizer. He gave me the names of small, local places and I'm so glad he did. Man was I overpaying.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

zeus201 said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?
> 
> 
> 
> $13 is a great price. I'd buy that up.
Click to expand...

It is but I've switched to AMS instead. Less volatilization and other benefits also.


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## Delmarva Keith

g-man said:


> . . .
> I'm also thinking on adding a Tier 1 approach, which is the UNL approach. This would involve an off the shelf lawn feed fertilizer and applying at bag rate around August and a month later in September. This is my standard recommendation to friends/neighbors when they want to do something for their lawns. Thoughts?


That is a good plan. In the Fall, I use the least expensive / most convenient 2-0-1 ratio fert I can find. Right now, the Lesco 24-0-11 is around $30 per 50 lb bag at the local big box. SiteOne is a 40+ mile drive each way so it's actually a lot easier to just stock up locally. The big box stuff has a high % of water soluble N (I think it's around 70% of total N) but that's not an issue for the Fall blitz. It may be the right stuff to recommend for your neighbors.

I only use starter fert or some triple superphosphate if it's an overseed and soil test shows P is needed. I guess I'm still an amateur compared to many of you guys because I still shy away from the straight urea for N. 

My Fall blitz is a lb of N and half pound K per 1,000 in each of roughly mid Sept., Oct. and Nov. Around here, it keeps growing usually right through Thanksgiving.

I don't start to throw the fert in August because we usually get some heavy pythium / damping off pressure here through mid-September. An overseed done Sept 1 has like a 50/50 chance of ever making it to month end.


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## jessehurlburt

g-man said:


> Make sure it is not the slow release coated one.


Would it say if it were slow release/ coated?

What I have are small white prills.


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## ken-n-nancy

jessehurlburt said:


> Would it say if it were slow release/ coated?
> 
> What I have are small white prills.


That bag is plain urea (quick release). If it were a slow release fertilizer, it would specifically say something about that on the bag.

In general, almost any 46-0-0 urea product that one buys at an agricultural or feed store will be quick release.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

jessehurlburt said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure it is not the slow release coated one.
> 
> 
> 
> Would it say if it were slow release/ coated?
> 
> What I have are small white prills.
Click to expand...

That is the regular urea. Coated would be less of the bag. The number is a % so the bag by weight is 46% urea. The coated is usually 43% or lower due to the coating reducing the amount of urea by weight of the bag.


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## Ridgerunner

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Make sure it is not the slow release coated one.
> 
> 
> 
> Would it say if it were slow release/ coated?
> 
> What I have are small white prills.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is the regular urea. Coated would be less of the bag. The number is a % so the bag by weight is 46% urea. The coated is usually 43% or lower due to the coating reducing the amount of urea by weight of the bag.
Click to expand...




ken-n-nancy said:


> jessehurlburt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would it say if it were slow release/ coated?
> 
> What I have are small white prills.
> 
> 
> 
> That bag is plain urea (quick release). If it were a slow release fertilizer, it would specifically say something about that on the bag.
> 
> In general, almost any 46-0-0 urea product that one buys at an agricultural or feed store will be quick release.
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: 
Sulfur-coated urea is(38-0-0)


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## Suburban Jungle Life

So many people trying to help! Y'all rock! oops. You all rock! I'm not from the south...


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## zeus201

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> zeus201 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?
> 
> 
> 
> $13 is a great price. I'd buy that up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is but I've switched to AMS instead. Less volatilization and other benefits also.
Click to expand...

I'm going to give AMS a try this year.


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## Hoosier

I'm planning to overseed in late September, and some areas will be newly seeded. Local turf supply has regular Urea and also UFLEXX. As mentioned that this shouldn't be done for newly seeded and overseeded lawns, what are your thoughts on, based on the weather, dropping 1# Urea at the beginning of September (about 3 weeks before seeding), and then 1# of UFLEXX with the seed in place of a starter fert? Basically, would the UFLEXX minimize some of the risk mentioned with new seed and high N levels?

Going to do a soil test within the next couple weeks, but I think P and K levels will be fine, so may not even need a "starter" fert?


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## LawnNerd

kolbasz said:


> 4. When it comes to the watering part, I can handle the front where I have irrigation, what should my plan be for the rest of the yard, wait for a time in the month due that I know it is going to rain, then run out an apply it real quickly?


Last year, I actually planned an app while it was raining. I was doing liquid apps and sprayed it in the rain. I don't have irrigation, so a LawnNerd's gotta do, what a LawnNerd's gotta do..

@g-man I wasn't even thinking about this yet.... now you got me thinking about it and getting excited. Fall is the best!


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## kolbasz

ken-n-nancy said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. My local site one quoted me 31$ for a #50 bag 46-0-0, based on your price I assume I should look elsewhere?
> 
> 
> 
> $31 for a 50# bag of 46-0-0 urea isn't horrible if you're in an urban area. You're practically in farm country, though, so cheaper prices should be available. I pay $19.99 at my local Agway in Milford, NH.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. Calculating quantity, 1# N / .46 = 2.17, 13k * 2 = 26. I assume I am close enough that at #50, 2 bags gets me 4 app (months). Unless of course I bump slightly or add a feeding and use all of 2 bags during my blitz
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup, for a 13k lot, I'd just apply 1/2 bag of urea. 25# is close enough to 26# not to worry about the difference.
Click to expand...

Gonna ask my neighbor to look at a seed store place a little south of me. From conversation, it seems they may have this more special stuff in a rural area. I'll tell him to get some for himself too and I'll help him out.

Escape the Scott's 4 step for once


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## gm560

Turfguy93 said:


> I've had good success with spoon feeding my renovations weekly until they are filled in. So like at germination milorganite or starter fert and then 2-4 weeks later I'll do .25-.5 lbs N weekly for 4-6 weeks. Or I've spoon fed with 10-10-10 weekly for 4 weeks at .25-.5 lbs NPK each week


I am interested in this. Anyone else take this tact on a reno? How would this compare to just putting down 1-1.5lbs at seed down?


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## Turfguy93

The way I see it is the seed has enough nutrients and energy to germinate and start growing so it doesn't need the N right away. If it's slow release it should be similar but the idea is to just give the plant a little push every week without pushing too much growth.


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## g-man

One benefit of spoon feeding for a Reno is that the roots are short. If you applynitrogen and it moves too deep, the young grass can't reach it. Small quatities often ensure the new grass has enough nitrogen when it needs it, but this is no my immediately after germination.


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## gm560

Do you do starter fertilizer at full rate?


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## g-man

@gm560 who?


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## gm560

g-man said:


> @gm560 who?


Apologies, question was directed at @Turfguy93, but really anyone who has used the spoon feeding a reno method.


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## SNOWBOB11

gm560 said:


> Do you do starter fertilizer at full rate?


When I did my KBG reno last year I put starter fertilizer at seed down then started light weekly apps of urea at 15 days from when I seeded. This worked well for me. I feel it really helped fill everything in and strengthened the grass quickly. I would recommend doing early weekly urea apps to others.


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## iowa jim

snowbob11: Just how much urea were you using, sounds like a good plan that i would like to try this fall with my upcoming reno.


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## SNOWBOB11

@iowa jim day 15 and 22 from seed down I used just over 1/2lb urea per k or .25lb N per k. My third app I increased the amount a bit then the fourth app I raised to 1lb urea per k or just under .50lb N per k. I left it at that amount weekly for the rest of the way. I also did a winterizer app after top growth stopped.


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## PA Lawn Guy

Question i just thought of recently: the general recommendation is a TTTF lawn should be overseeded every fall. This thread made me realize that fall nitrogen blitz isn't ideal for newly seeded/overseeded lawns because it may be too much nitrogen for the NEW seedlings to thrive.

So is a TTTF lawn not a good candidate for fall nitrogen blitz due to the annual overseed recommendation? What say you?

Thanks in advance!


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## skippynj17

So when is everyone planning on putting down their first app of N for the fall blitz ?


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## Bkell101

PA Lawn Guy said:


> Question i just thought of recently: the general recommendation is a TTTF lawn should be overseeded every fall. This thread made me realize that fall nitrogen blitz isn't ideal for newly seeded/overseeded lawns because it may be too much nitrogen for the NEW seedlings to thrive.
> 
> So is a TTTF lawn not a good candidate for fall nitrogen blitz due to the annual overseed recommendation? What say you?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


I was wondering exact same thing


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## jessehurlburt

LawnNerd said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4. When it comes to the watering part, I can handle the front where I have irrigation, what should my plan be for the rest of the yard, wait for a time in the month due that I know it is going to rain, then run out an apply it real quickly?
> 
> 
> 
> Last year, I actually planned an app while it was raining. I was doing liquid apps and sprayed it in the rain. I don't have irrigation, so a LawnNerd's gotta do, what a LawnNerd's gotta do..
> 
> @g-man I wasn't even thinking about this yet.... now you got me thinking about it and getting excited. Fall is the best!
Click to expand...

I imagine the rates are the same for spraying, you just dissolve the urea in water, then spray?


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Bkell101 said:


> PA Lawn Guy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question i just thought of recently: the general recommendation is a TTTF lawn should be overseeded every fall. This thread made me realize that fall nitrogen blitz isn't ideal for newly seeded/overseeded lawns because it may be too much nitrogen for the NEW seedlings to thrive.
> 
> So is a TTTF lawn not a good candidate for fall nitrogen blitz due to the annual overseed recommendation? What say you?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> 
> 
> I was wondering exact same thing
Click to expand...

Some recent research has shown that the N stays in the soil due to the cold weather and the grass uses it in the spring. If that is the case, just do a light early spring app as the grass is coming back to life and it'll use the fert at that point.

I use 0.9lb/M of N for 3 months in the fall and that's it. So, 0.9 in Sept and Oct but I usually cut back to half so 0.45 in Nov and the 0.45 in Mar/Apr the next year so it has that N for early spring green up. Then, I don't fert until Sept. I do spray iron in spring and early summer for that extra green. As for putting down 2lb/M of N, you could do that if you want. It is usually after the grass has had many mows on it before it goes dormant so it should not be a problem. With TTTF, overseeding to replace dead plants and to fill in bare spots keeps it thick so I like to cut back on the N. My state also has strict regs on N...


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## g-man

@skippynj17 I would likely start 04Aug. We are having a ~wet summer in Indy and I have fertilized since ~20Jun. I'm going on vacation so I dont want to feed it while I'm gone.

I will likely apply Prodiamine this weekend.


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## g-man

@PA Lawn Guy Like SJL (Suburban Jungle Life) said, it is a balancing act. If you have a 100% TTTF lawn, then a successful overseed is a most, in my opinion. I would tailor my approach to get it to be successful. If you have a northern mix and had large summer damage, then avoid overfeeding the overseeded areas. Having the lawn build up the carbs in the roots will help your lawn longer term.

I have a no mix. It is heavy on the KBG side, but there is PR and TTTF in there. I dont overseed my lawn. I just feed it and it grows. I shared a picture of a new irrigation head I added last year and I could not find it in the spring.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> @PA Lawn Guy Like SJL (Suburban Jungle Life) said, it is a balancing act. If you have a 100% TTTF lawn, then a successful overseed is a most, in my opinion. I would tailor my approach to get it to be successful. If you have a northern mix and had large summer damage, then avoid overfeeding the overseeded areas. Having the lawn build up the carbs in the roots will help your lawn longer term.
> 
> I have a no mix. It is heavy on the KBG side, but there is PR and TTTF in there. I dont overseed my lawn. I just feed it and it grows. I shared a picture of a new irrigation head I added last year and I could not find it in the spring.


Ahh... The beauty of KBG!!


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## LawnNerd

jessehurlburt said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 4. When it comes to the watering part, I can handle the front where I have irrigation, what should my plan be for the rest of the yard, wait for a time in the month due that I know it is going to rain, then run out an apply it real quickly?
> 
> 
> 
> Last year, I actually planned an app while it was raining. I was doing liquid apps and sprayed it in the rain. I don't have irrigation, so a LawnNerd's gotta do, what a LawnNerd's gotta do..
> 
> @g-man I wasn't even thinking about this yet.... now you got me thinking about it and getting excited. Fall is the best!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I imagine the rates are the same for spraying, you just dissolve the urea in water, then spray?
Click to expand...

Yes, weight rates are the same. 1# of Urea is ~.5N , Just drop in water, shakey shakey, and boom, liquid N. Thing to remember, Double the carrier, and rinse off in 3-4 hours. I double the carrier (water) so i can make 2 passes in different directions as to prevent striping.


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## SNOWBOB11

g-man said:


> @skippynj17 I would likely start 04Aug. We are having a ~wet summer in Indy and I have fertilized since ~20Jun. I'm going on vacation so I dont want to feed it while I'm gone.
> 
> I will likely apply Prodiamine this weekend.


G-man, are you doing weekly apps of N and starting aug 4th? Or are you doing monthly? Aug 4th is surprisingly earlier than I would have expected for you to start dropping N. I'm planning to go aggressive (weekly) with urea to help fill in my KBG but was thinking of probably starting closer to mid aug. now I see your starting earlier I'm wondering if I should start dropping N earlier. My avg first frost is around oct 10th.


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## g-man

The weather is turning really good for grow. If the weather holds, I might start 04Aug. I could apply something now, since it is a little starved, but I'm going on vacation next week + a business trip right after (to your neck of the woods). I dont want to feed it if I cant mow it.

edit to add extended forecast:


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## SNOWBOB11

Cool thanks g-man. I did notice the weather is going to be much cooler in the long range so like you said much better for growing. Even today it's much less humid. Plus we got rain yesterday and the grass looks better already.


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## ken-n-nancy

SNOWBOB11 said:


> G-man, are you doing weekly apps of N and starting aug 4th? Or are you doing monthly? Aug 4th is surprisingly earlier than I would have expected for you to start dropping N. I'm planning to go aggressive (weekly) with urea to help fill in my KBG but was thinking of probably starting closer to mid aug. now I see your starting earlier I'm wondering if I should start dropping N earlier. My avg first frost is around oct 10th.


My average first frost is Sept 26th. Personally, I start with weekly spoon-feeding of urea around August 20, at which point I think our average overnight low is about 60F-62F. I'm planning seed-down of a KBG renovation for August 15th.


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## SNOWBOB11

ken-n-nancy said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> G-man, are you doing weekly apps of N and starting aug 4th? Or are you doing monthly? Aug 4th is surprisingly earlier than I would have expected for you to start dropping N. I'm planning to go aggressive (weekly) with urea to help fill in my KBG but was thinking of probably starting closer to mid aug. now I see your starting earlier I'm wondering if I should start dropping N earlier. My avg first frost is around oct 10th.
> 
> 
> 
> My average first frost is Sept 26th. Personally, I start with weekly spoon-feeding of urea around August 20, at which point I think our average overnight low is about 60F-62F. I'm planning seed-down of a KBG renovation for August 15th.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your input. You should start a lawn journal to track your reno. I do like seeing other people's lawn renovations.


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## Hyna32

g-man said:


> The weather is turning really good for grow. If the weather holds, I might start 04Aug. I could apply something now, since it is a little starved, but I'm going on vacation next week + a business trip right after (to your neck of the woods). I dont want to feed it if I cant mow it.
> 
> edit to add extended forecast:


First off, EXCELLENT thread! I'm ~90 days into my spring Bewitched reno and was both on the NOAA site looking at temps and researching this site for pre-m timelines preparing for the fall...2 birds one stone here! @g-man we aren't too far off from one another ('burbs of Chicago)...I too was thinking of throwing a pre-m down this weekend, but re: N Blitz, I wasn't considering begining until LATE August (of course in my spring reno situation, I'll be only spoon feeding when I do begin @, ~0.5lb/M every 3-4 wks until Halloween, instead of the N Blitz rates), thoughts? I should mention I just did 1lb/M of Milorganite 7/15...so I may have just answered my own N question :roll:


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## g-man

You did a spring Reno and survived the summer. I think you can feed that lawn.


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## jha4aamu

2 questions for @g-man (or whoever else would like to chime in) with regards to the fall N blitz and over seeding. I have a small (100sq ft) area thats about 40% bare from fungus. How much spread/fill in can I expect from spoon feeding the kbg this fall or is reseeding the area a better option? 2nd question is for anyone who is spoon feeding 1lb/k of urea weekly, How are you applying it? Is spraying the only option? It seems like such a small amount would be difficult to spread evenly


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## Green

jha4aamu said:


> 2 questions for @g-man (or whoever else would like to chime in) with regards to the fall N blitz and over seeding. I have a small (100sq ft) area thats about 40% bare from fungus. How much spread/fill in can I expect from spoon feeding the kbg this fall or is reseeding the area a better option? 2nd question is for anyone who is spoon feeding 1lb/k of urea weekly, How are you applying it? Is spraying the only option? It seems like such a small amount would be difficult to spread evenly


1 lb per thousand of urea would be 0.46 lbs of N. That's not really spoon feeding, and it's way more than you can safely spray at a time, so if you're applying that much (which is fine in the Fall) you would have to spread it.

If you don't get some green popping into the bare areas over the next month, 40% bare might need a little help from seed or grass plugs if you want it to fill in totally this year.


----------



## g-man

It is not by %. I've seen it spread around 6in in the fall. I think I posted some images of not being able to find the sprinkler head after I installed a new zone/head. If the area is too large, I would plug from a different area of the lawn (plug sod farm).


----------



## jha4aamu

Green said:


> jha4aamu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 questions for @g-man (or whoever else would like to chime in) with regards to the fall N blitz and over seeding. I have a small (100sq ft) area thats about 40% bare from fungus. How much spread/fill in can I expect from spoon feeding the kbg this fall or is reseeding the area a better option? 2nd question is for anyone who is spoon feeding 1lb/k of urea weekly, How are you applying it? Is spraying the only option? It seems like such a small amount would be difficult to spread evenly
> 
> 
> 
> 1 lb per thousand of urea would be 0.46 lbs of N. That's not really spoon feeding, and it's way more than you can safely spray at a time, so if you're applying that much (which is fine in the Fall) you would have to spread it.
> 
> If you don't get some green popping into the bare areas over the next month, 40% bare might need a little help from seed or grass plugs if you want it to fill in totally this year.
Click to expand...

Thanks. So what is the spoon feeding rate? I thought I read somewhere gman said it was ~.5lbs of N (via urea) weekly.


----------



## g-man

The default is 1lb of N/ksqft per rolling month. The entire article is for granular N, nothing foliar. It might work foliar, but I have not tried it.



> There is a more intense form of nitrogen blitz. Instead of 1 lb/k of N per month, you apply 0.5 lb/k of fast acting N per week.


This is the crazy mode. It is a total 2lb of N/sqft/month, but apply it *weekly* at the 0.5lb of N/ksqft. It is a bit of enviromental irresponsible.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

jha4aamu said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jha4aamu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2 questions for @g-man (or whoever else would like to chime in) with regards to the fall N blitz and over seeding. I have a small (100sq ft) area thats about 40% bare from fungus. How much spread/fill in can I expect from spoon feeding the kbg this fall or is reseeding the area a better option? 2nd question is for anyone who is spoon feeding 1lb/k of urea weekly, How are you applying it? Is spraying the only option? It seems like such a small amount would be difficult to spread evenly
> 
> 
> 
> 1 lb per thousand of urea would be 0.46 lbs of N. That's not really spoon feeding, and it's way more than you can safely spray at a time, so if you're applying that much (which is fine in the Fall) you would have to spread it.
> 
> If you don't get some green popping into the bare areas over the next month, 40% bare might need a little help from seed or grass plugs if you want it to fill in totally this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks. So what is the spoon feeding rate? I thought I read somewhere gman said it was ~.5lbs of N (via urea) weekly.
Click to expand...

When really trying to push growth during the short autumn here in NH (our average first frost is Sept 26th), I make "spoon feeding" applications exactly as you describe -- 1# urea / 1 ksqft applied weekly. I only have enough weeks to make 4-5 of those applications, so I'm still only applying 2-2.5# of N during my "fall nitrogen blitz" which isn't any more than somebody living a few hundred miles south would apply in 2-3 normal monthly applications.

Yes, it can be difficult to spread such a low rate evenly. I previously used a drop spreader, which had no hope of applying such a low application rate evenly. However, a broadcast spreader can do it if the spreader casts a wide swath, spreads evenly, and is spreading a product with mostly uniform, small prill. I use an Earthway 2170, and it can quite handily spread 1# urea / 1 ksqft pretty evenly. It can't spread everything at such a low rate, but the small, mostly uniform, lightweight urea prill are one of the easiest products to spread.

As to whether or not a 40% bare area can fill in depends a lot upon the distribution of the bare spots and how much sun it gets. If you have at least a couple clumps of healthy Kentucky bluegrass in every saucer-sized section of a sunny lawn, you've got a reasonable shot it having it fill in enough that it will look fine from 20 feet away. It's not going to have the density of an established area, but it will be good enough to no longer look like a damaged area unless you're standing in it. By the end of next spring, though, it should be looking pretty good. A shady area can't fill in as fast -- there just isn't enough sunlight for the grass to grow that fast!


----------



## Green

I usually think of real spoon feeding as 0.25 lb N or less...low amounts. My definition might not be yours, his or hers, or theirs.

Btw, the bigger urea prill are not easy to spread evenly, even at the 1 lb urea rate.


----------



## kolbasz

Picked up some 29-0-4 from Walmart, $5 for 5M. Where does this for into the picture.

Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow. Should I do anything different? Toss the 29-0-4 instead, save the milo and then just jump into the 46-0-0


----------



## Green

kolbasz said:


> Picked up some 29-0-4 from Walmart, $5 for 5M. Where does this for into the picture.
> 
> Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow. Should I do anything different? Toss the 29-0-4 instead, save the milo and then just jump into the 46-0-0


The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 can be used (I used it last Fall), but it has a percent slow release N, so you probably want to stop using it earlier in the Fall than you would with purely fast release urea, so it has a chance to mostly run down. You can also use low rate Milo on the off weeks if you want. The closer you get to the end of the blitz season, the more important the fast release N is going to be.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Green said:


> I usually think of real spoon feeding as 0.25 lb N or less...low amounts. My definition might not be yours, his or hers, or theirs.


Absolutely. Since "spoon feeding" in regard to fertilizer application isn't traditionally defined, lots of people can have different definitions.

In my personal usage, the key distinction in "spoon feeding" is very frequent (weekly) applications at a comparatively lower rate than traditional monthly applications.

The more frequent applications enable the ability to apply a higher amount of fertilizer per month, because a sudden "overdose" is avoided.

I believe that weekly (comparatively smaller) applications are also more environmentally responsible than a monthly application of 4x the amount of the weekly application, as the gradual feedings allow more of the fertilizer to be used by the plant, reducing the "feast or famine" yo-yoing of large, infrequent applications.

Slow-release products are a labor-saving alternative to frequent small applications of quick-release fertilizers. One could claim that frequent, small applications of these slow-release products is best of all!


----------



## JDgreen18

@g-man man thanks for making this thread very informative information.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Should you blitz if you are over seeding this fall?


----------



## kolbasz

Green said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Picked up some 29-0-4 from Walmart, $5 for 5M. Where does this for into the picture.
> 
> Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow. Should I do anything different? Toss the 29-0-4 instead, save the milo and then just jump into the 46-0-0
> 
> 
> 
> The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 can be used (I used it last Fall), but it has a percent slow release N, so you probably want to stop using it earlier in the Fall than you would with purely fast release urea, so it has a chance to mostly run down. You can also use low rate Milo on the off weeks if you want. The closer you get to the end of the blitz season, the more important the fast release N is going to be.
Click to expand...

Is today too early to start?


----------



## kolbasz

Do you always have to water this stuff in or is that just a recommendation. Urea, etc, 29-0-4


----------



## jha4aamu

kolbasz said:


> Do you always have to water this stuff in or is that just a recommendation. Urea, etc, 29-0-4


I believe with urea you have to to prevent the pellets from sticking to the blades and burning the grass


----------



## Green

kolbasz said:


> Do you always have to water this stuff in or is that just a recommendation. Urea, etc, 29-0-4
> 
> Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow....
> 
> Is today too early to start?


Yes. It's mostly fast release urea, so the same ideas hold. Any urea needs to be watered in or it will tend to vaporize.

I would start with the Milo, not the urea based stuff right now, or even wait a week or two.


----------



## Green

outdoorsmen said:


> Should you blitz if you are over seeding this fall?


I do, personally, but I wait until the overseed grass is mowed a couple of times before I do. It helps it thicken up.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Green said:


> outdoorsmen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should you blitz if you are over seeding this fall?
> 
> 
> 
> I do, personally, but I wait until the overseed grass is mowed a couple of times before I do. It helps it thicken up.
Click to expand...

I dont think i would have enough time in the season. About the earliest i can plug and seed is around labor day (which can still be hot and dry). Im still trying to find a balance of seeding and a fall preEmrg.


----------



## Green

outdoorsmen said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> outdoorsmen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should you blitz if you are over seeding this fall?
> 
> 
> 
> I do, personally, but I wait until the overseed grass is mowed a couple of times before I do. It helps it thicken up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I dont think i would have enough time in the season. About the earliest i can plug and seed is around labor day (which can still be hot and dry). Im still trying to find a balance of seeding and a fall preEmrg.
Click to expand...

There's no free lunch...do what you think is the best compromise. But if you fert too early, it will just promote the existing grass.


----------



## outdoorsmen

How late do you think i could do the fall preEmrg? And what product?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

For TTTF, I use tenacity and ethofumesate at seed down and again after grass has been growing. Then, I use prodiamine after. So, Sept 1, seed down and tenacity & ethofumesate. 1 month later, ethofumesate. About 1-2 weeks later, tenacity. Then, Nov 1, prodiamine. Again, this is for TTTF, not KBG or PRG.


----------



## jimmy

Got my 50lb bag of urea for $19 from a local feed store. They even special ordered it for me. I'm probably going to start this week on the supercharged blitz. Going to do 1/2 lb N every week to get it to finish filling in.

Looking forward to getting my almost a year old reno to grow out of the rust that's plaguing it. I'm not sure where that came from since I don't irrigate and it wasn't a particularly rainy summer here in WI, but I've read that KBG is extra susceptible in the first year of establishment.

This will be my first Fall Nitrogen Blitz, so wish me luck.


----------



## g-man

I forgot to update this thread, but I started the fall nitrogen. I applied AS last week and some milo last Sunday. My lawn needed some nitrogen and responded with lots of green up. The weather was not great last weekend, but it is looking good going forward.


----------



## social port

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> For TTTF, I use tenacity and ethofumesate at seed down and again after grass has been growing.


I'm familiar with ethofumesate in name only (probably from a Grassfactor live stream  ). What trade name is associated with this AI? Prograss?
Could you elaborate on why you use this in addition to Tenacity? Does ethofumesate target pests not covered by Tenacity?


----------



## jurkewycmi

Hey @g-man you said Milo and AS? Im doing weekly urea apps should I supplement with Milo as well? Or are you doing this because you are on a less frequent schedule?


----------



## g-man

I did AS because it is fast. I did a low rate (0.2lb of N/ksqft). I did Milo at half bag rate.

I don't mind doing weekly apps since I only have 5.6k of lawn. I will likely drop some more AS today (0.2lb again). If the weather turns bad, I could just stop without a lot of nitrogen in the soil.


----------



## Alex1389

Any benefits to dissolving the urea and spraying instead of spreading? I don't usually look for reasons to spray product, but I'm curious if anyone is doing that with better results than just spreading granular urea.


----------



## outdoorsmen

g-man said:


> I forgot to update this thread, but I started the fall nitrogen. I applied AS last week and some milo last Sunday. My lawn needed some nitrogen and responded with lots of green up. The weather was not great last weekend, but it is looking good going forward.


What part of the country you live? Im near st. Louis and its still hot here. I did just get 2 days of rain, first in a long while. My lawn never went dormite, watered and 4 milo apps thus far. Greenest in the neighborhood. I just got 100lbs of 40-0-0 urea and 50lbs of 32-0-4 and looking for a reason to use it. Also have 20 bags of milo. 8 bags = one full app


----------



## g-man

@outdoorsmen I live in a suburb of Indy. It is in my profile info. My may was rough this year (dry and hot), but it's been a good summer. I avoided nitrogen since June.

I snapped this picture right before I mowed today. Last mow was Sunday. It got too dark for the post mow picture.


----------



## outdoorsmen

This was late april. I haven't taken a pic lately but im still dominating.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

social port said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> For TTTF, I use tenacity and ethofumesate at seed down and again after grass has been growing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm familiar with ethofumesate in name only (probably from a Grassfactor live stream  ). What trade name is associated with this AI? Prograss?
> Could you elaborate on why you use this in addition to Tenacity? Does ethofumesate target pests not covered by Tenacity?
Click to expand...

Ethofumesate is a pre and post emergent for poa annua. Combined with tenacity, you will have very little poa annua left. Ethofumesate requires 3 treatments, 2 in fall and 1 in spring. It also works on crabgrass so the spring treatment helps there too.

Yes, you can buy prograss but poa constrictor is a lot less. There are very few controls for annua aside from glyphosate.


----------



## LawnNerd

Alex1389 said:


> Any benefits to dissolving the urea and spraying instead of spreading? I don't usually look for reasons to spray product, but I'm curious if anyone is doing that with better results than just spreading granular urea.


See this thread. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1243&hilit=Spraying+Urea

I switched, and i fell in love. But it has to be the straight Urea (46-0-0) or Ammonium Sulfate (21-0-0)


----------



## g-man

Friendly reminder. The effective window for fall prem is closing. If you are not seeding/renovating and poa a has been a problem, consider dropping some prem.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> outdoorsmen I live in a suburb of Indy. It is in my profile info. My may was rough this year (dry and hot), but it's been a good summer. I avoided nitrogen since June.


@outdoorsmen

I recently learned that you can turn the phone or tablet 90 degrees and see where people are from without using a computer.


----------



## Green

LawnNerd said:


> I switched, and i fell in love. But it has to be the straight Urea (46-0-0) or Ammonium Sulfate (21-0-0)


Or blue miracle gro powder. The rates are a lot lower than granluar apps.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Friendly reminder. The effective window for fall prem is closing. If you are not seeding/renovating and poa a has been a problem, consider dropping some prem.


That reminds me, I need to get my Tenacity sprayed in the next two weeks or so (for short term Poa annua prevention and post emergent). Thankfully the window is bigger for that. I hope to follow it with prodiamine, but I have to seed, so it might be a while. Remember that very dormant grass in the low input area? I have a few large spots where there is not any grass left now, so it died and broke down in those areas.


----------



## ryeguy

When is ammonium sulfate preferred to urea, temperature wise? And how much of a difference does it make?


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> Friendly reminder. The effective window for fall prem is closing. If you are not seeding/renovating and poa a has been a problem, consider dropping some prem.


Put down my .27oz/M Sunday


----------



## g-man

ryeguy said:


> When is ammonium sulfate preferred to urea, temperature wise? And how much of a difference does it make?


When soil temps are below 50F AS would be faster than urea. Both work.


----------



## kolbasz

pennstater2005 said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm. Urea is $13 near me. Maybe look for a farm supply store or a farmer's co-op?
> 
> 
> 
> $13 is about what I pay. I was paying $22 but had a farmer as a patient and we got to talking about fertilizer. He gave me the names of small, local places and I'm so glad he did. Man was I overpaying.
Click to expand...

Ended up finding some for 13$ for 40#


----------



## kolbasz

Green said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Picked up some 29-0-4 from Walmart, $5 for 5M. Where does this for into the picture.
> 
> Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow. Should I do anything different? Toss the 29-0-4 instead, save the milo and then just jump into the 46-0-0
> 
> 
> 
> The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 can be used (I used it last Fall), but it has a percent slow release N, so you probably want to stop using it earlier in the Fall than you would with purely fast release urea, so it has a chance to mostly run down. You can also use low rate Milo on the off weeks if you want. The closer you get to the end of the blitz season, the more important the fast release N is going to be.
Click to expand...

Am I better off saving this till the spring and going straight urea now?


----------



## kolbasz

@g-man how much water and how soon after urea app (granular) do I need to water.

Just trying to think if I run the sprinkler tonight or in the morning.

Gonna spray pgr and need it rain fast before watering.


----------



## Green

kolbasz said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Picked up some 29-0-4 from Walmart, $5 for 5M. Where does this for into the picture.
> 
> Was planning some bag rate milorganite tomorrow. Should I do anything different? Toss the 29-0-4 instead, save the milo and then just jump into the 46-0-0
> 
> 
> 
> The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 can be used (I used it last Fall), but it has a percent slow release N, so you probably want to stop using it earlier in the Fall than you would with purely fast release urea, so it has a chance to mostly run down. You can also use low rate Milo on the off weeks if you want. The closer you get to the end of the blitz season, the more important the fast release N is going to be.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Am I better off saving this till the spring and going straight urea now?
Click to expand...

It's up to you. Personally, I don't like a lot of fast release/water soluble N in Spring. I'll be using the 29-0-4 all Fall, because that's what I have and I didn't buy straight urea this year (same last year). If you have the 46-0-0 urea already, though, it makes sense to use that for at least the second half of the applications, or alternate the two types, if not use the 46-0-0 for all of the apps. Bottom line, there's not a ton of difference between the two, and either will work, as long as you're not getting too aggressive with the 29-0-4 (like every week), but I wouldn't apply it after mid Fall or first frost, because the slow release won't have a chance to break down fully before Winter if the soil is too cold. That could cause Nitrogen runoff issues, I guess.


----------



## kolbasz

What about water before it evaporates? How quickly does that happen? @g-man


----------



## Green

kolbasz said:


> What about water before it evaporates? How quickly does that happen? @g-man


Urea is urea, so it's not going to make a difference if it's from 46-0-0 or 29-0-4. The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 contains primarily uncoated 46-0-0 urea. You can prove it to yourself by looking at the white prills...they're the same.


----------



## kolbasz

Green said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about water before it evaporates? How quickly does that happen? @g-man
> 
> 
> 
> Urea is urea, so it's not going to make a difference if it's from 46-0-0 or 29-0-4. The Expert Gardener 29-0-4 contains primarily uncoated 46-0-0 urea. You can prove it to yourself by looking at the white prills...they're the same.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am not asking correctly. What I mean is how quickly do I need to water the stuff in before the urea is no good because it evaporated. Regardless of which I put down, I thought urea evaporates if it isn't watered/activated into the lawn.


----------



## Green

kolbasz said:


> Maybe I am not asking correctly. What I mean is how quickly do I need to water the stuff in before the urea is no good because it evaporated. Regardless of which I put down, I thought urea evaporates if it isn't watered/activated into the lawn.


Well, that's true. You do lose some over time due to volatilization. I think there's a table floating around somewhere online showing temperatures and number days versus how much is lost to the air, but I don't have it memorized. I do know that when the air temps are in the 40s, without wind, there's no rush to water it in. But in the 80s, it should be watered in as soon as you can, for example.

Edit: Here you go: https://www.cropsmart.com.au/what-happens-to-urea-post-application/


----------



## g-man

~1/4in within a couple of days. Check the 29-0-4 product for the percent of slow release nitrogen. Just looking at white prills could be deceiving since you can't tell if it is coated or not. I would use the 29-0-4 product now(this week) and use the urea latter in September.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> ~1/4in within a couple of days. Check the 29-0-4 product for the percent of slow release nitrogen. Just looking at white prills could solve deciding since you can't tell if it is coated or not. I would use the 29-0-4 product now(this week) and use the urea latter in September.


It's 4.35% of the 29% urea that is PCU, so about 1/7th of the total. I opened a bag to look just now, and the uncoated urea is white, the PCU is blue, and the MOP is gray.

Edit: @g-man, I think most fertilizer makers try to use colors other than white for PCU coatings, so you can tell it's coated. It's a good practice, anyway.

Note: @kolbasz, PCU doesn't break down well in cold weather. If applied too late, that fraction will likely stay put until Spring.


----------



## kolbasz

Green said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am not asking correctly. What I mean is how quickly do I need to water the stuff in before the urea is no good because it evaporated. Regardless of which I put down, I thought urea evaporates if it isn't watered/activated into the lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, that's true. You do lose some over time due to volatilization. I think there's a table floating around somewhere online showing temperatures and number days versus how much is lost to the air, but I don't have it memorized. I do know that when the air temps are in the 40s, without wind, there's no rush to water it in. But in the 80s, it should be watered in as soon as you can, for example.
> 
> Edit: Here you go: https://www.cropsmart.com.au/what-happens-to-urea-post-application/
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't need anything exact. My concern was that I was convinced that it needs water within a few hours.

But according to this chart (if I am reading it right), I actually have a few days. Up to 10 at the most extreme end at which point I lose 20% product, is that right?

I was under the impression if I didn't water things in within hours, then the entire application is a waste.

For now, I did the 29-0-4 in the front, I'll do a quick cycle at 15 minutes in the morning.

Then if I get a chance, I will apply to the back tomorrow if the projected rain still comes. I was going to just do it today, but ran out of time.


----------



## Green

@kolbasz, I would guess the volatilization would be gradual, rather than abrupt.


----------



## kolbasz

Green said:


> @kolbasz, I would guess the volatilization would be gradual, rather than abrupt.


Yeah. This make a bit more sense, funny part is I had myself convinced I needed rain within 12 hours. Good to know it can be longer as it makes application planning slightly easier

One question I do have about the 29-0-4 and the blitz plan is about the rate. If we are doing 1# N/M and are calculating on the 46-0-0, where I would use 26# for my 13,000M lawn. Do I do a direct conversion to 29-0-4?

The main reason for me asking is because I put 6# on my 6,000M, but if the calculation converts, I should be putting 18# for get 1# N, right?

Just trying to think going forward. If in fact this is accurate, I am technically on the weekly plan of sorts. Not something I am planning for, but will just apply an equal amount in 2 weeks, which is all the 29-0-4 I have, 30#. At which time I will convert to the monthly app and put the 26# urea at the end of September.

All these numbers, rates, dates and calculations. If not for this board, I am not sure how I would keep it all straight.


----------



## g-man

If you want 1lb of N/M using the 29-0-4, then you need to apply 3.4lb/M ( 1/0.29 = 3.4).

If you want 0.25of N/M usin the 29-0-4, then you needs to apply 0.86lb/M (0.25/0.29 = 0.86)


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> If you want 1lb of N/M using the 29-0-4, then you need to apply 3.4lb/M ( 1/0.29 = 3.4).
> 
> If you want 0.25of N/M usin the 29-0-4, then you needs to apply 0.86lb/M (0.25/0.29 = 0.86)


OK, this is what I was thinking. The light bulb went on this morning and I realized that I went a bit light yesterday, but then wanted to confirm things given the slow release, in the event that changed anything. All is well, thanks again.


----------



## outdoorsmen

What does /M mean?
I get /k is 1000


----------



## synergy0852

outdoorsmen said:


> What does /M mean?
> I get /k is 1000


They're interchangeable and mean the same thing


----------



## LawnNerd

outdoorsmen said:


> What does /M mean?
> I get /k is 1000


M = Roman Numeral for 1,000.


----------



## g-man

Sorry. M is used to avoid confusion with K from potassium. M = 1000sqft = 1ksqft.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Ok thanks


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Sorry. M is used to avoid confusion with K from potassium. M = 1000sqft = 1ksqft.


I've always wondered...

It is suposed to be written "lb/M of N" or "lb N/M"? I've seen both.


----------



## g-man

I think it is the same thing. I use lb N/M.


----------



## kolbasz

i am still trying to figure out how to type it correctly...I know what I am trying to say. whether it comes out correctly is another story


----------



## kolbasz

@g-man

Just a question on timing and planning. Yesterday I completed my first application of 29-0-4 at about 33% app rate (.33/.29 = 1.1)

1.1# of 29-0-4, so not .86 and not 3.4 as noted above. I had 3 5# bags so I put it all down.

All I am looking for is the nod that come the first week of September (2 weeks), I can green light a full application. I am either going to jump to the 46-0-0 or use the 50# bag of 29-0-4. Either way, I would plan for the monthly dosage. As much as I would love to do the weekly, it gets difficult with timing at times, so once a month is just easier.

If I go with the 29-0-4, my 13,000 sqft calls for 44 pounds (3.4*13). Would it be stupid or harmful to just go for it like @wardconnor would say and put down 1.1# N by putting down all 50#? Or, is it important to make sure I measure off that 6 extra pounds?

If the 1.1# route is bad, I may decide I am better off going the 46-0-0 route as I just eyeball half a bag (or, I just invest in a scale)


----------



## wardconnor

@kolbasz

1.1 # of N is heavy. I am willing to bet that you will be fine if you go that heavy but I would try to lean more towards the 3/4# range. I do not think that you need to weigh any fert out.. Just know your sq footage and about how much 3/4# is in the hopper. Put the spreader setting on a light setting and just make a ton of different passes in multiple directions until it is gone.


----------



## Green

@kolbasz, I weigh mine for the square footage of each section so I don't put too much, personally. I feel more comfortable that way.

The 29-0-4 is probably better than the 46-0-0 for monthly apps. The bit of slow release will cover the time between apps. As @wardconnor suggests, you can target 0.75 to a max of 1 lb N monthly.

Personally, I've never started with such high amounts in August, so I'm not the best person to give an up or down vote on that. My grass type doesn't require much until September, so for me it would be two apps, Sept and Oct, and a final one after growth stops, which I've experimented with going lighter on. I don't use the 29-0-4 for that due to the bit of the PCU. Since I didn't buy 46-0-0, I bought Scott's Greenmax which I like better because of how it spreads.

I'm not saying I'm doing monthly. Haven't decided yet. Currently using Milo.


----------



## kolbasz

@wardconnor @Green

All makes sense. I get all OCD sometimes and think I need to do things sooner than later. As if I am falling behind and will miss the window to get the grass looking its best. As now. Heck, I wanted to start the blitz 2 weeks ago.

I need to tell myself it will all work out in the end, slow down, take a breath, drink a beer.

New plan, wait 2 weeks, check the weather and go half rate, repeat. Maybe ramp it up end of September/October. Till then, chillax a bit...


----------



## Alex1389

In looking at the nitrogen blitz thread, it appears that the winterization routine is no longer recommended. So now I have an extra bag of urea lol. I suppose I could always store it over winter and use it in the spring, but I'm wondering if anyone is going with the 2# N/M per month rate instead of 1# N/M. I'd obviously split this up to four .5# N/M feedings weekly through September and October.

Is this a bit too risky/unnecessary? My lawn is pretty thick already, but I wouldn't mind helping the KBG spread and possibly overtake some of the PRG and fescue.


----------



## ericgautier

Alex1389 said:


> In looking at the nitrogen blitz thread, it appears that the winterization routine is no longer recommended.


Wait... what?


----------



## Alex1389

ericgautier said:


> Alex1389 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In looking at the nitrogen blitz thread, it appears that the winterization routine is no longer recommended.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... what?
Click to expand...

I suppose I should re-word that! Not that the routine is no longer recommended but that it is now listed as 'optional.' See below and let me know if I'm misunderstanding this.

PS2
I move this traditional last task as an option. For those of us old school in Fall Nitrogen, it might be weird why the change. New research has found that this last step shows very few benefits and it is not environmentally friendly. @ Osuturfman discussed a new model in ATY that uses 50% slow release, but what I describe is a hybrid using fast release. UNL actually changed their fall recommendations in 2014 to avoid the late fall nitrogen. Therefore last year, I decided to skip it in a portion of my lawn as a trial. The results were that I could not tell the areas apart during the winter and spring. I tested it at 1.5 HOC and 3in HOC too. This year I'm just going to skip it. The very late fall nitrogen application is one of the hardest things to time properly. I know habits are hard to change, so I challenge you to give it a try in a portion of the backyard and share your observations next year.


----------



## Mozart

Would a nitrogen blitz favor KBG over tall fescue? Wondering if there is any chance to crowd out the tall fescue or create a culture that would hurt it but help KBG (mow height maybe?)


----------



## ericgautier

@Mozart yes, try a lower height of cut.


----------



## g-man

@Alex1389 the recommendation is to save you time into something that research shows it is not a big factor. Nothing wrong with either approach. @ericgautier fyi.

@Mozart I've mowed my nomix below 2in since last June. Ive reel mowed this year and I'm at 3/4in. The tttf is doing just fine. Kbg is not hurting it. Maybe over a long time(years), the tttf will die off. I'm going to Reno to 100%kbg to get rid of it. I think alpine and other that are reel mowing noticed the same effect, tttf doesn't seem to care.


----------



## Alex1389

g-man said:


> @Alex1389 the recommendation is to save you time into something that research shows it is not a big factor. Nothing wrong with either approach. @ericgautier fyi.
> 
> @Mozart I've mowed my nomix below 2in since last June. Ive reel mowed this year and I'm at 3/4in. The tttf is doing just fine. Kbg is not hurting it. Maybe over a long time(years), the tttf will die off. I'm going to Reno to 100%kbg to get rid of it. I think alpine and other that are reel mowing noticed the same effect, tttf doesn't seem to care.


I'm actually more concerned about the environmental impact as well since I have sandy soil. Thoughts on me going with 2# N/M per month or should I just save a bag for the spring?


----------



## g-man

It stores great, so you could use it next year (spring or fall). 2# N/M/month is very aggressive. My best recommendation is to try it and see if you like it. Nothing wrong with switching mid season.


----------



## Green

Mozart said:


> Would a nitrogen blitz favor KBG over tall fescue? Wondering if there is any chance to crowd out the tall fescue or create a culture that would hurt it but help KBG (mow height maybe?)


The fertilizer, no. Tall fescue loves Nitrogen. 2-5 lbs per year is the recommendation I see most. I currently target 3-4 lbs counting all sources like Milo. I'm hoping to cut back to 2.5-3 lbs per year as the lawn ages.


----------



## Green

@kolbasz, sometimes a little "OCD" as you called it is helpful. I think you'll appreciate this summary webpage in the first link. I think these are some of the themes running through your mind by what you've posted in the last week. Some of the things you maybe thought of, but you might not have posted and asked about, such as fertilizer burn, but this article explains how and why various things can go wrong: https://homeguides.sfgate.com/long-can-fertilizer-sit-yard-water-89554.html

One with some of the technical details (geared to crops): http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/wwwpb-archives/ag/baudr131.html

And a much more detailed article from a university: https://extension.umn.edu/nitrogen/fertilizer-urea#fall-and-spring-comparisons-756360 (for farmers, but some info never changes)

This one covers almost all the basics of calculations, etc, with respect to turf fertilizing: https://extension.psu.edu/turfgrass-fertilization-a-basic-guide-for-professional-turfgrass-managers

And one last type of source, a fertilizer seller with some basic conversions: https://www.greenwaybiotech.com/pages/urea-46-0-0-faq

I hope the combination of all of these help you. Please seek out others, too, if anything doesn't sound right on the non-university pages.

*Disclaimer: Please go by the articles in the first post of this thread over any in this post if they disagree*.


----------



## MarkAguglia

Can I get a little advice?

So, I bought some Hi-Yield Dimension to use for a fall Pre-M to control annual bluegrass (Poa) and I just read that adding a lot of nitrogen in Fall is a bad idea when trying to control Poa. Any thoughts on this? Also, I've never done a Pre-M or the fall N blitz but I had planned to do both. Here's my proposed schedule, is it too much N? Can I maybe eliminate the November app?



My sq footage is 3,800. I plan to use the Dimension soon (4LB/1000)after dethatching and putting down some soil conditioner. I'd love to aerate but can't find a decent price and can't pick up an aerator. Will not be overseeding. Any help is appreciated with my Fall plan!


----------



## g-man

For your weather, your are some what late for prem. Drop it as soon as possible. You can dethatch later.

The fall nitrogen blitz is geared to using fast nitrogen sources. Milo is not one of them. Lesco starter has phosphorous, do you need more? Apply the lesco for 0.5lb of N/M will likely push the phosphorous above 1 lb/M.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Should i still blitz if i have already out down 5lbs of N thus far this year?


----------



## Mr Efficiency

Laying down my fav, 25-0-6 with 5% iron for fall fert . Yes I have a lawn care business. 
I like that 5% iron since I can still get a nice green at 1/2 lb of Nitrogen per 1,000 sqft at 2.5% iron.

Years ago I use to use a lot more nitrogen per service but switched to lower Nitrogen fert programs with Iron. I was just wasting Nitrogen and $ putting down a lot more Nitrogen. Lawns look just ad good if not better on lower N program.

Equipment I use, Permagreen Triumphs and lesco pus spreaders, all have Permagreen Breakthru agitators in hoppers.


----------



## g-man

outdoorsmen said:


> Should i still blitz if i have already out down 5lbs of N thus far this year?


5lb per ksqft?


----------



## MarkAguglia

g-man said:


> For your weather, your are some what late for prem. Drop it as soon as possible. You can dethatch later.
> 
> The fall nitrogen blitz is geared to using fast nitrogen sources. Milo is not one of them. Lesco starter has phosphorous, do you need more? Apply the lesco for 0.5lb of N/M will likely push the phosphorous above 1 lb/M.


The write up you made says any nitrogen including Milorganite and recommends August for Pre-M. Did I miss something? Just want to point that out incase something's changed. My temps in NY have been consistently 80's so I can't imagine I missed the window for Pre-M. I am low on K, but used Ringer on July 4 and will use the Lesco at 1LB/M coming up.


----------



## g-man

@MarkAguglia Buffalo, NY is farther north than Indy, so you need to tweak the timing to be earlier than Indy, per the first note. I tend to apply PreM the first week of August. I updated the post to be clear about it. Poa a germinates when the soil temps drops below 70F. You want the PreM applied before that so it can protect. The current 5-day average soil temp for Buffalo, NY is 70.4F (per this soil temp map). Air temps are not what matters for germination, it is the soil temps.

Yes, I see how the milorganite wording got incorrect. I kept tweaking it and it is not clear. I just updated it, thanks. The first apps, yes you could use a slow source, but then around sept, you should switch to a fast acting. It is to avoid a delayed response. You want the grass to grow now, so the nitrogen should be available now. A slow release (and organics) will break down later and feed the lawn at a later time.


----------



## outdoorsmen

g-man said:


> outdoorsmen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should i still blitz if i have already out down 5lbs of N thus far this year?
> 
> 
> 
> 5lb per ksqft?
Click to expand...

Yes. 4 apps of milo and 1 scotts turf builder.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

outdoorsmen said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> outdoorsmen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Should i still blitz if i have already out down 5lbs of N thus far this year?
> 
> 
> 
> 5lb per ksqft?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes. 4 apps of milo and 1 scotts turf builder.
Click to expand...

You've only done one app of synthetic fertilizer so your fine to drop urea this fall.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Good thanks


----------



## NewLawnJon

How early is too early to start urea and the fall blitz? I have enough urea for 10 weeks of applications at .5n/1k sq ft and have done no synthetic FERT this year.


----------



## zeus201

NewLawnJon said:


> How early is too early to start urea and the fall blitz? I have enough urea for 10 weeks of applications at .5n/1k sq ft and have done no synthetic FERT this year.


Start now


----------



## g-man

Last week would be better, but now works too.


----------



## NewLawnJon

zeus201 said:


> NewLawnJon said:
> 
> 
> 
> How early is too early to start urea and the fall blitz? I have enough urea for 10 weeks of applications at .5n/1k sq ft and have done no synthetic FERT this year.
> 
> 
> 
> Start now
Click to expand...

I started yesterday so I guess my timing wasn't too terrible.


----------



## GoPre

I've been sticking with the aggressive .5lb/K of N weekly. So far I have dropped 2 lbs/K. and the lawn is responding very nicely. How much is too much?


----------



## g-man

@GoPre It is really up to you. At some point there is diminish returns. If you watch the video that osuturfman posted, you will see that not all the nitrogen gets used by the grass and it uses less as the ET drops (less sun/energy). So the extra stuff is getting wasted or maybe binding to the soil (in higher CEC soils?).


----------



## gregonfire

@g-man I have urea left over from last fall that has been in my shed the entire time. Think it's still good to go or should I grab a fresh bag?


----------



## MMoore

I swung by the local TSCstore and the urea granules there were huge. putting down low rates to spoon feed at these low rates would be difficult with granules the size of marbles.

I have to find a different product, unless most urea has these large size granules.


----------



## g-man

@gregonfire It works as long as it is not clumped up. Otherwise you could get a localized high level of nitrogen.

@MMoore The Scott Wiz spreader is your friend for this.


----------



## MMoore

g-man said:


> @MMoore The Scott Wiz spreader is your friend for this.


im still talking about doing my whole lawn... its not an acre but I would have thought that the marble sized granules would be too large?

I have a cheap scotts spreader and it would be able to spread them, but I don't think with the size of the granules that I would get an even coverage.


----------



## g-man

Marble size? Ok, that's too big. I mentioned you in the Ontario hometown thread for other members to help you source urea locally.


----------



## kolbasz

Heat wave over, gonna drop a 1# tomorrow, should I worry about the impending heavy rain to follow or is the wash out good reason to hit it again. Sooner than later?


----------



## steensn

Uh oh... I burnt out parts of my lawn. I hate everything.


----------



## gregonfire

g-man said:


> @gregonfire It works as long as it is not clumped up. Otherwise you could get a localized high level of nitrogen.
> 
> @MMoore The Scott Wiz spreader is your friend for this.


Great, thanks :thumbup:


----------



## ChadStokes

Vigoro Super Green 35-0-5 is going for $3.50 for a 15lb bag at home depot right now......


----------



## outdoorsmen

I dont see that on their website


----------



## PA Lawn Guy

ChadStokes said:


> Vigoro Super Green 35-0-5 is going for $3.50 for a 35lb bag at home depot right now......


They're 16 pound bags. Roughly 6M.

Still a great price though, I bought 16 bags myself from my local store (southeastern PA). 😀


----------



## kolbasz

PA Lawn Guy said:


> ChadStokes said:
> 
> 
> 
> Vigoro Super Green 35-0-5 is going for $3.50 for a 35lb bag at home depot right now......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They're 16 pound bags. Roughly 6M.
> 
> Still a great price though, I bought 16 bags myself from my local store (southeastern PA). 😀
Click to expand...

It amuses me that we can buy fertilizer in such quantities, but I cannot buy cold medicine without a drivers license


----------



## MassHole

Thoughts on using the Scotts starter with Tenacity for the blitz?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

MassHole said:


> Thoughts on using the Scotts starter with Tenacity for the blitz?


Too much tenacity? For a blitz ,you can hit it hard at 2lb N but with mesotrione, wouldn't that be too much?


----------



## jaygrizzle

MassHole said:


> Thoughts on using the Scotts starter with Tenacity for the blitz?


I would think that would be an okay option to use early in the season of the fall blitz. The label says that it contains ~6% slow release N. So later in the season I wouldn't use it and only use fast release. You may be able to find it on sale for $10 at a local Lowes right now which is a really good deal.


----------



## jaygrizzle

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on using the Scotts starter with Tenacity for the blitz?
> 
> 
> 
> Too much tenacity? For a blitz ,you can hit it hard at 2lb N but with mesotrione, wouldn't that be too much?
Click to expand...

Good point. I definitely wouldn't use any more than the bag recommended amount.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

jaygrizzle said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thoughts on using the Scotts starter with Tenacity for the blitz?
> 
> 
> 
> Too much tenacity? For a blitz ,you can hit it hard at 2lb N but with mesotrione, wouldn't that be too much?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good point. I definitely wouldn't use any more than the bag recommended amount.
Click to expand...

Maybe use the scotts as 1 app so you use the recommended app but use urea/AMS as the other apps. Then, a month later, repeat. This way, you can get the effects without overdoing it but still blitzing it.


----------



## g-man

This was my fear with scott using tenacity in their product. Weeds could build resistance to it when it is not really needed. A "starter" also normally has a higher P content than nitrogen plus the nitrogen is not all fast acting. These two issues will not make it a good option for the fall nitrogen blitz explained in the main article.


----------



## g-man

Friendly reminder.

If you are doing fall nitrogen, please make sure you don't kill your yard with applying too much at once. Target the applications to no more than 0.5lb of N /ksqft. The best way is to weight the amount. If you want, take the time to weight multiple applications into ziplock bags. This way you just grab and go instead of rushing to get the scale before it turns dark.

Lastly, some areas are turning hot. My car was saying 93F for Indy today. If it is hot/dry, don't throw nitrogen until the weather turns better.


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> Friendly reminder.
> 
> If you are doing fall nitrogen, please make sure you don't kill your yard with applying too much at once. Target the applications to no more than 0.5lb of N /ksqft. The best way is to weight the amount. If you want, take the time to weight multiple applications into ziplock bags. This way you just grab and go instead of rushing to get the scale before it turns dark.
> 
> Lastly, some areas are turning hot. My car was saying 93F for Indy today. If it is hot/dry, don't throw nitrogen until the weather turns better.


so 1#/M per rolling month as opposed to 1#/M per app per month?


----------



## g-man

? I'm not sure I understand the question. You can't apply 1#of N in September 31 and then apply another pound on 01oct.


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> ? I'm not sure I understand the question. You can't apply 1#of N in September 31 and then apply another pound on 01oct.


right, but can you apply 1# Sept 1 and 1# Oct 1? The way you wrote it sounded more like, .5# Sept 1, .5# Sept 15, .5# Oct 1, so as not to kill the grass. So, I was confused and want to clarify.


----------



## g-man

I see the confusion now.

You can do 1# of N/M Sept 1 and then Oct 1 or

0.5 Sept 1, 0.5 Sept 15, 0.5 Oct 1, 0.5 Oct 15 or

0.25 Sept 1, 0.25 Sept 07, 0.25 Sept 14, 0.25 Sept 21 ... or

start on any other number (eg. Sept 04). The idea is to get around a total of a pound of nitrogen per rolling month.

If you are concerned with burning your yard due to uneven application, then target the 0.5# application twice a month. This reduces the potential that too much in a corner causes some burn. Ensure that each application needs to be watered in.


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> I see the confusion now.
> 
> You can do 1# of N/M Sept 1 and then Oct 1 or
> 
> 0.5 Sept 1, 0.5 Sept 15, 0.5 Oct 1, 0.5 Oct 15 or
> 
> 0.25 Sept 1, 0.25 Sept 07, 0.25 Sept 14, 0.25 Sept 21 ... or
> 
> start on any other number (eg. Sept 04). The idea is to get around a total of a pound of nitrogen per rolling month.
> 
> If you are concerned with burning your yard due to uneven application, then target the 0.5# application twice a month. This reduces the potential that too much in a corner causes some burn. Ensure that each application needs to be watered in.


OK, makes sense. This is what I thought, but your comment made me re-think it.

I may have some burn in the back, not sure yet. Got tons of rain with last app so it was not expected. May switch to .5 x2 to be sure with next apps :thumbup:


----------



## Miggity

Quick question for you guys - Supposedly adding humic acid increases the availability and slows the uptake of N, right? It is not enough of a slowdown to affect AS in a fall blitz, is it? Any reason I should not be adding humic acid to .25#N/M weekly AS spray?


----------



## g-man

I dont know about mixing humic with AS. When you say .25 spray, do you apply it foliar or soil? I think 0.25 foliar is too much.


----------



## Miggity

I meant foliar and I already applied it. We have 95% humidity and rain is expected 7 hours after application. What rate would you suggest in the future, or granular apps only, and should I battle the mosquitoes to set up sprinklers for a quick rinse off right now?


----------



## g-man

Miggity, I was wrong. 0.25N/M would be fine. Lawn nerd was doing 0.5. The higher carrier rate and washing it off is important.

Osuturfman shared good info on this approach in this thread. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1243


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I would go ahead and add the humates. I doubt that it will slow it so much it becomes a slow release fert. Also, it probably won't slow all the N. Now, if you add kelp, that could assist with root growth also...


----------



## Mozart

Is it alright to be a little more aggressive with mature grass? Perhaps 0.3#/1000sqft per week or is 1#/1000sqft per month the max recommended, regardless of frequency?

I roughed up my turf with a dethatch rake and cut it to 2". Would like to help it fill in ASAP as it doesn't look so great :?


----------



## g-man

You can apply more than 1lb. It is explained in the Fall Nitrogen Blitz.


----------



## Mozart

I applied nitrogen a day before overnight rain.

The rain started gentle - .1-.2 inches per hour for about 8 hours, then turned into a downpour with 1+" per hour sporadically throughout the remainder of the day.

I'm wondering if I need to apply more Nitrogen. Would it be available due to the gentle rain or is it more likely that the Nitrogen was washed away from the heavy rain that followed?

I can hold off until a week has passed or put down more now. What do you all think?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Mozart said:


> I applied nitrogen a day before overnight rain.
> 
> The rain started gentle - .1-.2 inches per hour for about 8 hours, then turned into a downpour with 1+" per hour sporadically throughout the remainder of the day.
> 
> I'm wondering if I need to apply more Nitrogen. Would it be available due to the gentle rain or is it more likely that the Nitrogen was washed away from the heavy rain that followed?
> 
> I can hold off until a week has passed or put down more now. What do you all think?


If you're applying weekly in small amounts, then just stay the course with the regular, small amounts. Even if much of what you applied was lost, the next application is no more than a week away. This is one of the advantages of "spoon feeding" -- any effect of washouts or similar events is minimized, as it only potentially affects one week's worth of fertilizer, rather than an entire month's supply.

In any case, the fact that the rain started out gentle probably got the fertilizer completely dissolved and into the soil.


----------



## Mozart

ken-n-nancy said:


> Mozart said:
> 
> 
> 
> I applied nitrogen a day before overnight rain.
> 
> The rain started gentle - .1-.2 inches per hour for about 8 hours, then turned into a downpour with 1+" per hour sporadically throughout the remainder of the day.
> 
> I'm wondering if I need to apply more Nitrogen. Would it be available due to the gentle rain or is it more likely that the Nitrogen was washed away from the heavy rain that followed?
> 
> I can hold off until a week has passed or put down more now. What do you all think?
> 
> 
> 
> If you're applying weekly in small amounts, then just stay the course with the regular, small amounts. Even if much of what you applied was lost, the next application is no more than a week away. This is one of the advantages of "spoon feeding" -- any effect of washouts or similar events is minimized, as it only potentially affects one week's worth of fertilizer, rather than an entire month's supply.
> 
> In any case, the fact that the rain started out gentle probably got the fertilizer completely dissolved and into the soil.
Click to expand...

Thanks @ken-n-nancy, I think the Nitrogen was probably dissolved/absorbed by the gentle rain but wondering how deep it leeched with 4.5+" total rainfall. Will stay on course (+/- a day) :thumbup:


----------



## jurkewycmi

When should I stop applying N?

I started my blitz 2 months ahead of average first frost, Aug 6. Aggressive program 0.5lb N weekly apps up til now.

My 14 day outlook with no sign of frost in sight.


Appreciate the input folks.


----------



## g-man

Aug 6 or Oct 6?

The actual temps or the actual first frost for that year are not relevant. The average first frost is just a point of reference that winter is near. There less sunlight, colder soil temps and colder temperatures, which means the plants have to slow down. Therefore you should consider also stopping the feeding. Maybe do a last 0.25N/M feeding on the weekend.

How did your lawn respond to the nitrogen?


----------



## jurkewycmi

Aug 6.

So it's had lots so far which is why I was thinking it was time to shut it down.

Lawn has responded really well. Front lawn has received a little less N than the front because of the overseed, and is also growing slower than the back, so'll do another app at 0.5 on the front and call it a year.

Thanks @g-man


----------



## Mozart

I applied .25# per 1000 sqft today around 10 AM. By 3 PM I went back outside and the prills were practically ALL GONE! No rain in that 5 hour timeframe.

So what happened? I assume the temp (75-85) and the relative humidity (high today) caused a chemical reaction of sorts?

Did the prills absorb the humidity from the air/soil? It seems likely. If so, does that mean the nitrogen is in the soil/at the soil surface? Or did it evaporate into thin air, in which case should I reapply?

We are getting rain in about an hour so I have a chance to throw more down right now. @g-man has this happened to you before?


----------



## g-man

I never paid attention. Assume it is all in the soil and don't apply more.


----------



## BXMurphy

g-man said:


> If you are concerned with burning your yard due to uneven application, then target the 0.5# application twice a month. This reduces the potential that too much in a corner causes some burn. Ensure that each application needs to be watered in.


I really like the half-pound nitrogen per 1,000 square feet application. I have found that such a light sprinkling does no damage when it is not watered in - even in heavy dew situations. Any local damage is MUCH less than what a dog would do when it urinates. With this light of a sprinkling, you MIGHT get a brown _blade_ or two here and there.

While I am mentioning brown spots... I will also confess to not being afraid to spot-treat weeds with glyphosate in my lawn. Very targeted, coarse, low-pressure spray. Kills weeds dead with minimal collateral damage.


----------



## BXMurphy

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I would go ahead and add the humates. I doubt that it will slow it so much it becomes a slow release fert. Also, it probably won't slow all the N. Now, if you add kelp, that could assist with root growth also...


Humic acid and kelp are both GREAT things. You will NEVER apply too much of either as a spray. You would need dumptruck-fulls before you have to worry. Worry about how it mixes in your sprayer.

Humic acid is nothing more than charcoal like what you would find in an aquarium filter. Lots holes to trap bad things but the soil and microbes will pull it out.

Kelp? Seaweed. Fertilizer. Yummy!


----------



## ABC123

I won't be applying anymore N this fall. Spring feels so far away.


----------



## jaygrizzle

While not ideal, I have been spoon feeding Scotts Step 4 (it was free) to my newly overseeded lawn for about the last month or so. I have been putting it down weekly at about 1lb/M (which is .32N/M based on 32-0-12). I am in the St. Louis area and was wondering when I should quit fertilizing for the the year. I believe about 6% of the Scotts Step 4 is slow release N.


----------



## rockinmylawn

We're been told to expect first frost around Oct 14th.

This is 2 weeks earlier than average first frost of Oct 31st.

I would be on my 2nd Urea drop next weekend.

Do I continue to follow historical first frost date & keep dropping Urea?

Or do I start the pause after next weekend?


----------



## NoslracNevok

@rockinmylawn You only risk wasting a little and urea is cheap, I'd say thowrdown.


----------



## g-man

@rockinmylawn Actual first frost is irrelevant. Soil temps and longer range forecast models should guide you to make a decision. I normally stick to my average first frost (25Oct) and add or subtract a week based on the forecast. I just looked at the climate prediction center and it looks like we will have an average November or slightly warmer.

NOV/DEC/JAN


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Something to keep in mind is that there is expected to be a el nino develop later on this year which means chances are high much of the east will have a extended and most likely warmer than average fall.


----------



## ksturfguy

Here is a site I use for my weather forecasts. The GFS is the long range model, it goes about 16 days out. Obviously it's not always right but can give you an idea of future temps or rain. Might be a little too complex or hard to figure out if you know nothing about weather models

https://weather.cod.edu/forecast/


----------



## jaygrizzle

jaygrizzle said:


> While not ideal, I have been spoon feeding Scotts Step 4 (it was free) to my newly overseeded lawn for about the last month or so. I have been putting it down weekly at about 1lb/M (which is .32N/M based on 32-0-12). I am in the St. Louis area and was wondering when I should quit fertilizing for the the year. I believe about 6% of the Scotts Step 4 is slow release N.


Bumping this to see if anyone has any advice on when I should stop applying for the year.


----------



## g-man

This is a different approach using slow release. I'm not 100% sure, but I would stop 1 month prior to average first frost.


----------



## NewLawnJon

We have been getting rain for the last 4/5 days straight so my ground is saturated. I have been putting Urea down at .5/m every week to 10 days for the past 6 weeks or so.

I should be putting down another app any time now but I don't want to if it is just going to run off. Should I give it a few days to dry out and apply again or keep applying and hope for the best?


----------



## g-man

If it is not raining hard, you could still apply more.


----------



## kolbasz

I feel my grass is liking the Urea I am providing. I am on the monthly plan but still just mowed 3 times in a within a week...


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## g-man

:thumbup:

Once you do this one fall, you become a believer. The green up in spring is also a nice benefit.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Ive done 3 apps for the past 3 weeks at .25/k and im not yet seeing a big improvement. Still hoping it folls in a bit more after the dethatcher aerating seed ordeal.


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## g-man

0.25 lb of urea or 0.25lb of nitrogen?


----------



## GoPre

Been on the aggressive program since August 15th. Lawn has never looked this good. Also starting to drop HOC and that is helping the appearance, too.

Since I've been aggressive on a weekly basis for a month and a half now, I think I'm going to use first frost as an absolute and call it quits there. Then I'll lay my final at 1lb N/K when I have zero top growth. I know many don't use it as an absolute, works for me this fall.


----------



## g-man

:thumbup:


----------



## kolbasz

outdoorsmen said:


> Ive done 3 apps for the past 3 weeks at .25/k and im not yet seeing a big improvement. Still hoping it folls in a bit more after the dethatcher aerating seed ordeal.


increase to .5/k


----------



## kolbasz

GoPre said:


> Been on the aggressive program since August 15th. Lawn has never looked this good. Also starting to drop HOC and that is helping the appearance, too.
> 
> Since I've been aggressive on a weekly basis for a month and a half now, I think I'm going to use first frost as an absolute and call it quits there. Then I'll lay my final at 1lb N/K when I have zero top growth. I know many don't use it as an absolute, works for me this fall.


Is this a good plan, not the timing, but the 1#N/M once top growth has ceased? It is the one aspect of the plan that left me confused


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

kolbasz said:


> GoPre said:
> 
> 
> 
> Been on the aggressive program since August 15th. Lawn has never looked this good. Also starting to drop HOC and that is helping the appearance, too.
> 
> Since I've been aggressive on a weekly basis for a month and a half now, I think I'm going to use first frost as an absolute and call it quits there. Then I'll lay my final at 1lb N/K when I have zero top growth. I know many don't use it as an absolute, works for me this fall.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this a good plan, not the timing, but the 1#N/M once top growth has ceased? It is the one aspect of the plan that left me confused
Click to expand...

The 1#N/M after top growth ceases is the idea that the plant will use it in the roots and perhaps help it grow more roots and store up some of that N to help with early spring green up. Some more recent research says that the N just sits in the soil until the plant uses it in the spring. Normally, N moves through the soil quickly but in cold soil temps, the N is much more stable. So the research shows it sits there until the plant uses it next year. You could instead do an early spring app of N to replace the late fall app but either way, it's up to you. Personally, I prefer the early spring app so there is less chance of leaching. The late fall app has been shown to be effective so if you like that route, that's good too.


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## kolbasz

@Suburban Jungle Life I guess it does not really matter. I always used to go into winter doing a winterizer app of starter fert and then starter in the spring. I used to do the dimension with fert, but have since replaced that with prodiamine so I did starter as the alternative.

Maybe I will keep with the Urea, then when things slow I will too. Whether there is N left on the soil will be up to the weather, but instead of over thinking things, I will just keep on the schedule I have and stop when I think the season is over. Whether that schedule has me applying an app after the last mow is unknown. Depends how the dates fall I guess. But it seems overall, as long as I don't get stupid, I should not hurt anything.


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## ryeguy

I thought early spring apps were something to avoid since it forces top growth at the expense of root growth?


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## ales_gantar

Did the first round of fall N two weeks ago and striped the lawn. Ha! I can now compare the blitzed with the nonblitzed grass. *looks at the next N date to undo the stripes*


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@kolbasz N enters the plant through mass flow. As evapotranspiration reduces in the late fall, mass flow is limited and thus the intake of N is also limited. When soil temps are much lower, you can put all the N you want but it won't enter the plant. Quite different in warmer temps. Leaching of the N will also depend on many factors including CEC, precipitation in winter, and if you have a warmer winter but not warm enough for evapotranspiration to resume.

If you are limited on the # of N, like in my state, then I save what I can and apply it in early spring when the grass is just starting to wake up. If I apply it in late fall, that really limits my quantity for the year and I'm not sure how much will be in the soil come spring. If you aren't limited by law, you could put it down both times to maximize turf performance.

Regardless of if you want to do a late N app after the turf stops shoot growth, fall N is the most important. Once summer temps break, pound that fert!! Blitz! Blitz! Blitz!

I save the majority for fall. We have a max of 2.7 #N/M per year. I save about 2# for the fall and spread 0.7# over the rest of the year.


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## kolbasz

@Suburban Jungle Life makes sense. I never actually looked into limits, but pretty sure I do not have many.

The crazy thing this year is that the summer heat has not completely broken yet. While things cooled a bit, it was just 90 the other day. Next week, 50's, so I feel things will start to slow after that.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

kolbasz said:


> @Suburban Jungle Life makes sense. I never actually looked into limits, but pretty sure I do not have many.
> 
> The crazy thing this year is that the summer heat has not completely broken yet. While things cooled a bit, it was just 90 the other day. Next week, 50's, so I feel things will start to slow after that.


Ouch. I hate those years without a spring or fall. Right from summer to winter really stinks. You really lose the prime growing season and also the nice weather... Well, check soil temps online or in your yard. For me, growth seems to continue into the mid to low 40's, albeit slow but still using N.


----------



## wizardstephen

Hi, I'm going to be doing my third mow on my new seeded lawn (Black Beauty Ultra) in a couple days. I think I'm going to start applying urea after that cut. My questions are:

Should I do .25lbs/1k or .5lbs./1k (or a hybrid where I start with .25lbs./1k and move up to .5lbs./1k

Assuming I do my first app at .25lbs./1k and i have 3k square feet of lawn, i will be applying .75lbs of urea. Based on that:
What method do you use to weigh that amount out? I have a 50lbs. bag.

And, do you just set your spreader to the lowest setting and go for it? I'm worried that even the lowest setting would spit out more than .75lbs. before i make it around the 3k lawn?


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## synergy0852

@wizardstephen I think you need more like 1.5lbs urea for 3000ft² to achieve .25lbs N/1000ft². I believe 1.63lbs is the exact number.


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## g-man

0.54lb of urea/ksqft to get 0.25lb of N/ksqft.

Times 3k = 1.63lb (it is ok to round down to 1.5lb). So, I concur with synergy.

Get a kitchen scale to weight the qty. The spreader at the lowest setting should work. I really like using a Scott wizz spreader. Walmart has it on special.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Scotts-WIZZ-Spreader/46879329


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Put down 1lb/k urea today. I think that's it for me for the blitz. I haven't decided whether I'm going to do a winterizer app or not. I did a winterizer app last fall on my reno and I liked how things came back in the spring so not sure which way to go. I still have time to decide so we'll see.


----------



## steensn

So when are we getting too cold to do this anymore? Snow?


----------



## outdoorsmen

g-man said:


> 0.25 lb of urea or 0.25lb of nitrogen?


Urea, plus a full strength app of milo


----------



## g-man

@steensn I keep applying until the week of 25oct (average first frost). I just applied more today.

@outdoorsmen that's only around 0.11lb of N. Milo might break down eventually. I suggest you just use urea for the rest of the year.


----------



## osuturfman

So the air temperature and soil temperature are actually influencing a more important mechanism for the grass plant which is known as evapotranspiration. Here's a nice primer on evapotranspiration, more commonly referred to as ET.

https://www.hydropoint.com/what-is-evapotranspiration/

Essentially, what ET entails is water evaporating out of the soil and transpiring through the plant to be released into the atmosphere (think about the water cycle). Now there's a way to measure the daily rate at which this happens which is referred to as an evapotranspiration rate or ET rate. The ET rate is expressed in terms of inches, just like rain would be, for a given day, for example, 0.25"/day. It's measured by using a formula that includes data on wind speed, solar radiation, atmospheric pressure, temperature, relative humidity, and the seasonal angle of the sun in your location.

Now, what the hell does all this have to do with late season N?

The way virtually all N enters the plant is through a process within the soil called Mass Flow. Mass flow is a lot like it sounds, whereby N ions collect near the roots and then are taken into the plant as roots absorb water. As ET rates increase the demand for water in the plant, more N will be pulled into the plant. So as we enter these autumn months in the north, our ET rates are decreasing and thus the opportunity to get N into the plant via its primary process for N uptake is also dwindling.

So how can we tell when it's time to shut it down?



Here's an interesting graph from Dr. Doug Soldat at The University of Wisconsin - Madison. What you see here in the blue dots are the daily ET rates. What you don't see is the data collected by Dr. Soldat and his colleagues that shows over 85% of applied N entering the plant in early to mid-September when ET rates are measuring between 0.1"-0.16"/day. As the graph moves into early to mid-October and we slip into the 0.08" to 0.1"/day, they found less than 20% of applied N entering the plant. So what this proves is that while soil temperatures (dictated by soil radiation and humidity) and air temperatures are important data points, they are really only about 33% of the drivers behind the main factor in N uptake, ET rates!

Some weather stations from Davis and others will calculate ET for you. Additionally, there are several universities around the country that provide daily ET rates as a part of their meteorology departments. While it's not 100% accurate, see the link below of a simple web tool to be able to use for calculating your own daily ET.

http://www.tfrec.wsu.edu/pages/web4/pET

When you start to dip below 0.1"/day ET rate, it's pretty much a waste to put out any more appreciable amounts (> 0.25 lb N/M) of N. Spoon feeding would be all right to continue but, even that you're still at that stage of < 20% uptake efficiency.

Using "The Pause" or waiting until growth stops while grass is still green as a marker for the last N app is an old turf dogma, like several others, which have been disproven over the last several years. Welcome to the new age!


----------



## outdoorsmen

@outdoorsmen that's only around 0.11lb of N. Milo might break down eventually. I suggest you just use urea for the rest of the year.
[/quote]
I been putting down about 9lbs over my 18,000sqft. I sould be dropping 18lbs shouldn't i? I think i was forgetting that the 46-0-0 is based off of 100lbs and not 50lbs that the bag contains. Isn't that right? So 1lb of urea per 1k yeilds .46lbs of N based off of a 100 bag analysis. But a 50lb bag it yeilds .23lbs of N when 18lbs is dropped. So my 9lb apps have only been giving me .115lb/k. Correct? Theoretically speaking.


----------



## Green

@osuturfman, great science.

But I do have a question. When they talk in terms of percentage of uptake, there is one thing I don't understand...

If you put down 0.25 lb/M, would you get less total uptake (in ppm or whatever you measure total uptake in) than if you put down 1.0 lb/M? If so, it makes little sense to me...how would the plants "know" how much total N was applied to induce them to uptake a specific, fixed fraction (or percentage) of the total?

I have had this question for years.

My own gut feeling is that putting down less during these times should not reduce total uptake, unless the amount applied is somehow below a certain threshold level at which it isn't readily available for uptake...

Thoughts?


----------



## Ridgerunner

> Welcome to the new age!





> the idea that the plant will use it in the roots and perhaps help it grow more roots and store up some of that N to help with early spring green up





> old turf dogma


The studies that I have seen support neither result. Improvement to root growth/mass does not increase and carb storage has been shown to actually drop in turf plants subjected to a Fall N blitz. However turf that does receive LSF of N does show an early Spring increase in carb reserves (which researchers surmised to be due to the earlier Spring green-up exhibited by turf that is subjected to LSF of N.
So...yes mass flow and ET rates, but also, at least for KBG, top-growth is related to rhizome and stolon growth and studies show that N and day length are directly related to that. As always, draw your own conclusions


----------



## NeVs

outdoorsmen said:


> I been putting down about 9lbs over my 18,000sqft. I sould be dropping 18lbs shouldn't i? I think i was forgetting that the 46-0-0 is based off of 100lbs and not 50lbs that the bag contains. Isn't that right? So 1lb of urea per 1k yeilds .46lbs of N based off of a 100 bag analysis. But a 50lb bag it yeilds .23lbs of N when 18lbs is dropped. So my 9lb apps have only been giving me .115lb/k. Correct? Theoretically speaking.


The numbers are percent per lb. So 46% of 1 lb = .46 lbs of N.

A 50 lbs 46-0-0 bag will have 23 lbs of N.

So if you dropped 9 lbs over 18k. You applied .5 lbs product or .23 lbs of N/M.

9lbs over 18K = .5 lbs product /M. 
.5 lbs * .46 = .23lbs of N /M


----------



## g-man

NeVs said:


> So if you dropped 9 lbs over 9k. You applied .23 lbs of N/M.
> 
> 9lbs over 9K = 1 lbs product /M.
> 1 lbs * .46 = .23lbs of N /M


There is a math error. Anything multiplied by 1 is the same number.

1 * .46 = .46


----------



## ken-n-nancy

g-man said:


> NeVs said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if you dropped 9 lbs over 9k. You applied .23 lbs of N/M.
> 
> 9lbs over 9K = 1 lbs product /M.
> 1 lbs * .46 = .23lbs of N /M
> 
> 
> 
> There is a math error. Anything multiplied by 1 is the same number.
> 
> 1 * .46 = .46
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but it's also important to set the problem up correctly. outdoorsmen says he has 18,000sqft of lawn.

So, ironically, NeVs has two different mistakes in the posting, which just happen to miraculously compensate for one another!

Fixed the problem setup and math below.



... if you dropped 9 lbs over 18k. You applied .23 lbs of N/M.

9lbs over 18ksqft = 0.5 lbs product /ksqft. 
0.5 lbs * .46 = .23lbs of N /ksqft​


----------



## outdoorsmen

Hmmmm so i was right the first time....


----------



## SNOWBOB11

outdoorsmen said:


> Hmmmm so i was right the first time....


Yes, if you are trying to drop .23lb of nitrogen (or round up to .25lb) per 1000 sq ft then 9lb of urea over your 18000 sq ft would be correct.


----------



## NeVs

LOL 
This is why I should not post on my phone while riding in a bumpy vanpool without my contacts in!

Somehow I kept switching in my head from 9k to 18k sq feet. I corrected my post.


----------



## wizardstephen

synergy0852 said:


> @wizardstephen I think you need more like 1.5lbs urea for 3000ft² to achieve .25lbs N/1000ft². I believe 1.63lbs is the exact number.





g-man said:


> 0.54lb of urea/ksqft to get 0.25lb of N/ksqft.
> 
> Times 3k = 1.63lb (it is ok to round down to 1.5lb). So, I concur with synergy.
> 
> Get a kitchen scale to weight the qty. The spreader at the lowest setting should work. I really like using a Scott wizz spreader. Walmart has it on special.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Scotts-WIZZ-Spreader/46879329


Thanks @synergy0852 and @g-man . That makes sense, and not sure why i didn't grasp that before posting...Just to be clear:

For a .25lbs. N/1k rate, i would do .54lbs of urea * the total square footage of the lawn?

For a .5lbs. N/1k rate, i would do 1.08lbs. of urea * the total square footage of the lawn?


----------



## NeVs

wizardstephen said:


> synergy0852 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @wizardstephen I think you need more like 1.5lbs urea for 3000ft² to achieve .25lbs N/1000ft². I believe 1.63lbs is the exact number.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 0.54lb of urea/ksqft to get 0.25lb of N/ksqft.
> 
> Times 3k = 1.63lb (it is ok to round down to 1.5lb). So, I concur with synergy.
> 
> Get a kitchen scale to weight the qty. The spreader at the lowest setting should work. I really like using a Scott wizz spreader. Walmart has it on special.
> 
> https://www.walmart.com/ip/Scotts-WIZZ-Spreader/46879329
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks @synergy0852 and @g-man . That makes sense, and not sure why i didn't grasp that before posting...Just to be clear:
> 
> For a .25lbs. N/1k rate, i would do .54lbs of urea * the total square footage of the lawn?
> 
> For a .5lbs. N/1k rate, i would do 1.08lbs. of urea * the total square footage of the lawn?
Click to expand...

Yep, that is correct.

Here is an easy way for you to calculate how much product you need to deliver your target lb N/M

I take my target lb N per M and multiply by 100.
I divide that number by the N number on the bag. This gives you lb of product needed per M

So with a *46*-0-0 bag with a target of .25 lb N/M
.25 * 100 = 25
25 / *46* = .54 lb of product /M
.54 * .46 = .248 lb N

for .5 lb N/M
.5 * 100 = 50
50/*46* = 1.09 lb product /M
1.09 * .46 = .5 lb N


----------



## wizardstephen

NeVs said:


> Yep, that is correct.
> 
> Here is an easy way for you to calculate how much product you need to deliver your target lb N/M
> 
> I take my target lb N per M and multiply by 100.
> I divide that number by the N number on the bag. This gives you lb of product needed per M
> 
> So with a *46*-0-0 bag with a target of .25 lb N/M
> .25 * 100 = 25
> 25 / *46* = .54 lb of product /M
> .54 * .46 = .248 lb N
> 
> for .5 lb N/M
> .5 * 100 = 50
> 50/*46* = 1.09 lb product /M
> 1.09 * .46 = .5 lb N


Thank you!!


----------



## g-man

An easier way is just to think in half. A pound of urea yields half a pound of nitrogen. Half a pound of urea yields 1/4 of a pound of nitrogen.

With AS, think in 1/5. One pound of AS yields 1/5lb(0.2) of nitrogen.


----------



## NeVs

g-man said:


> An easier way is just to think in half. A pound of urea yields half a pound of nitrogen. Half a pound of urea yields 1/4 of a pound of nitrogen.
> 
> With AS, think in 1/5. One pound of AS yields 1/5lb(0.2) of nitrogen.


This is true but I was offering him a formula that would allow him to determine lb of product needed for any fertilizer.


----------



## rockinmylawn

NeVs said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> An easier way is just to think in half. A pound of urea yields half a pound of nitrogen. Half a pound of urea yields 1/4 of a pound of nitrogen.
> 
> With AS, think in 1/5. One pound of AS yields 1/5lb(0.2) of nitrogen.
> 
> 
> 
> This is true but I was offering him a formula that would allow him to determine lb of product needed for any fertilizer.
Click to expand...

I actually understood your formula clearer vs. g-man because it was similar to how I did mine (thanks to g-man on a formula in the past thread - see below for my calc)

And someone else can see g-man's explanation easier than your.
But that's what good teachers always do - they can explain it different ways 



NeVs said:


> Here is an easy way for you to calculate how much product you need to deliver your target lb N/M
> 
> I take my target lb N per M and multiply by 100.
> I divide that number by the N number on the bag. This gives you lb of product needed per M
> 
> So with a *46*-0-0 bag with a target of .25 lb N/M
> .25 * 100 = 25
> 25 / *46* = .54 lb of product /M
> .54 * .46 = .248 lb N
> 
> Thank you!!


To get 0.25 #N/K to cover 3K sqft (in orig example)
(N/ First number on Urea bag/100) * 3= 
(0.25/0.46) = 0.54 lbs per 1K sqft * 3 = 1.63 lbs of Urea to spread over 3K sqft.


----------



## rockinmylawn

Burnt a spot on my lawn because I dropped some Urea while adjusting the drop mechanism under the spreader.

Should I dig the spot out & reno the area?
or
Will the grass recover itself?


----------



## outdoorsmen

I sould make myself a chart with .25/k intervals. That way i have a cheat sheet to look at for how many lbs of product i need to apply per desired outcome.


----------



## kolbasz

outdoorsmen said:


> I sould make myself a chart with .25/k intervals. That way i have a cheat sheet to look at for how many lbs of product i need to apply per desired outcome.


When your done, share it here...


----------



## outdoorsmen

I did it. Basically i go in 9lb for every .25lb of N increases. (Predictable)
Bur this is a different way of figuring as compared to the milo numbers. Even though milo is done for you if you go at bag rate 36lbs/2500sqft.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Does anyone have decent experience with the Scotts Wizz Spreader? What spreader setting do you guys typically use for the 
46-0-0 white urea pellets? I'm looking to see what the average size swoth that it puts out.

I've been reading through and it seems that a few guys have been using it to spread their urea since it's better controlled.

I bought 2, to use both at the same time to cover more area since I have a hefty amount of square footage to cover. The backyard I'm not so concerned about, but the front lawn has new grass coming in. I'm planning on putting out .5 lb per 1k this weekend. Just trying to get some feedback


----------



## Tim H

@Scagfreedom48z+ I found that on my larger sections (1K s.f. and larger) a setting of 4 let me make two passes at a pretty descent walking pace. For my smaller sections, about 300 s.f., I may try diluting and spraying next time. It's a little harder to evenly spread 4-8 oz of product over a smaller area.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Thanks Tim. That helps. I bought 2 of them since they were on sale. I'm going to experiment prior to applying to see if I can use both at the same for an even spread.


----------



## Alex1389

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Thanks Tim. That helps. I bought 2 of them since they were on sale. I'm going to experiment prior to applying to see if I can use both at the same for an even spread.


I find that these little spreaders actually have a pretty wide broadcast area. I'd be careful of the overlap when using two spreaders in combination.

Which rate do you plan to apply (N/M) on the urea? A setting of 4 on that spreader is what I used for a .5 N/M rate. If you're going lighter than that, you will need to adjust. Definitely weigh out the urea on a scale before applying.


----------



## g-man

Trying to apply with two spreader sounds risky. You can't watch both hands at once to ensure it is flowing right, overlap, or spill it.


----------



## Tim H

Be aware that the triggers on the Wizz can stick. If you don't notice it in time, you can dump a pile that doesn't get spread by the spinner.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Thanks for all the response guys. I am going to put down .5 lb per 1k. I'm going to use just one for starters. I haven't had experience with the spreader yet so the advice you guys have listed makes perfect sense.


----------



## someguybri

So I did 1#/k of nitrogen 2 weeks ago. 
Is it to late to do one more app this weekend since I didn't do the blitz before that. How do I know when it's to late ? Weather ?Irrigation was blown out this past Tuesday due to a colder forecast.


----------



## g-man

I don't know. I use the average first frost for my area.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Has anyone tried spreading Urea after an episode of rain? Would there be any difference before or after given that the grass/soil is already wet?


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Hi Guys,

I know it's late on the application but it's becuase I stumbled upon this great site a little too late but better late than ever! Everyone recommendations and advice have been great. I'm going to continue to apply until first signs of frost

I applied my first spoon feeding to the lawn of urea (46-0-0) and i have to say it was pretty fun. The recommendation of the Scotts Wizz was a big plus! Applying small amounts of product with that little gadget is pretty fun.

I applied a total of:

8 lbs of Urea to the front lawn: 16k sq feet total: 1/2 lb per 1k. #3.5 setting on the Scotts Wizz with a quick walk

11 lbs of Urea to the back lawn: 11k sq feet total: 1 lb per 1k. #3.75 setting on the Scotts Wizz with a quick walk.

Pics of the front lawn/irrigation watering in fert


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## Stuofsci02

Awesome!


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## Green

g-man said:


> This is a different approach using slow release. I'm not 100% sure, but I would stop 1 month prior to average first frost.


Some people might disagree with this, but I use some slow release up until first frost when I stop, and then again as the final app. This is one of the differences in my own personal Fall program versus the one on this site that you put together, or the ATY one. For my climate, it works well. But I only use methylene urea, which relies on temperature and microbes...not SCU, because if it releases during the Winter when the ground is frozen due to a thaw, it can cause runoff. Methylene urea (in theory, because it uses microbes and warm water sparingly soluble urea chains) simply sits around over Winter after it gets too cold, and then picks up where it left off in the Spring again. I have never had issues using this approach.


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## Green

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Has anyone tried spreading Urea after an episode of rain? Would there be any difference before or after given that the grass/soil is already wet?


One would think so, because the water has already entered the soil and can't carry the fertilizer down into it after the fact. That's why we water after applying, not before.


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## g-man

@Green what is the cost of the methelyne urea in per pound of nitrogen?


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## Green

g-man said:


> @Green what is the cost of the methelyne urea in per pound of nitrogen?


I'm not sure...I only see it mixed with normal urea, AMS, and sometimes also coated urea. But it works really well in my opinion.


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## PA Lawn Guy

Green said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Green what is the cost of the methelyne urea in per pound of nitrogen?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure...I only see it mixed with normal urea, AMS, and sometimes also coated urea. But it works really well in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Is that what Lebanon MESA is? Or MethEx?


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## Green

PA Lawn Guy said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Green what is the cost of the methelyne urea in per pound of nitrogen?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure...I only see it mixed with normal urea, AMS, and sometimes also coated urea. But it works really well in my opinion.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that what Lebanon MESA is? Or MethEx?
Click to expand...

My understanding is MethEx is methylene urea, and MESA is that plus ammonium sulfate. I think the ME in MESA stands for methylene, and the SA for sulfate of ammonia.


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## ryeguy

Green said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a different approach using slow release. I'm not 100% sure, but I would stop 1 month prior to average first frost.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people might disagree with this, but I use some slow release up until first frost when I stop, and then again as the final app. This is one of the differences in my own personal Fall program versus the one on this site that you put together, or the ATY one. For my climate, it works well. But I only use methylene urea, which relies on temperature and microbes...not SCU, because if it releases during the Winter when the ground is frozen due to a thaw, it can cause runoff. Methylene urea (in theory, because it uses microbes and warm water sparingly soluble urea chains) simply sits around over Winter after it gets too cold, and then picks up where it left off in the Spring again. I have never had issues using this approach.
Click to expand...

Is there some advantage of doing this? Why put something down that would become less effective as temps drop? Isn't that the whole point of using straight urea for this program?


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## osuturfman

ryeguy said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a different approach using slow release. I'm not 100% sure, but I would stop 1 month prior to average first frost.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people might disagree with this, but I use some slow release up until first frost when I stop, and then again as the final app. This is one of the differences in my own personal Fall program versus the one on this site that you put together, or the ATY one. For my climate, it works well. But I only use methylene urea, which relies on temperature and microbes...not SCU, because if it releases during the Winter when the ground is frozen due to a thaw, it can cause runoff. Methylene urea (in theory, because it uses microbes and warm water sparingly soluble urea chains) simply sits around over Winter after it gets too cold, and then picks up where it left off in the Spring again. I have never had issues using this approach.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is there some advantage of doing this? Why put something down that would become less effective as temps drop? Isn't that the whole point of using straight urea for this program?
Click to expand...

Because it is temperature dependent, most, if not all, the N will stay until soils begin warming in the spring.


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## jocoxVT

Are there other recommendations other than Urea? I am in the Charlotte, NC area and for the life of me cannot find any. I called 5 feed/farm stores on Saturday with no luck.


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## Delmarva Keith

Green said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is a different approach using slow release. I'm not 100% sure, but I would stop 1 month prior to average first frost.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people might disagree with this, but I use some slow release up until first frost when I stop, and then again as the final app. This is one of the differences in my own personal Fall program versus the one on this site that you put together, or the ATY one. For my climate, it works well. But I only use methylene urea, which relies on temperature and microbes...not SCU, because if it releases during the Winter when the ground is frozen due to a thaw, it can cause runoff. Methylene urea (in theory, because it uses microbes and warm water sparingly soluble urea chains) simply sits around over Winter after it gets too cold, and then picks up where it left off in the Spring again. I have never had issues using this approach.
Click to expand...

I agree with your approach and do similar (but slightly different reasoning). Climate here provides soil temps into or very close to the 50's at least part of each month even in the coldest part of winter. It's still metabolizing, just slower.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@Delmarva Keith Do you mow the grass all winter?


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## Delmarva Keith

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Delmarva Keith Do you mow the grass all winter?


No, usually around Thanksgiving or early December I stop. Leaves keep falling through Christmas though. Fisrt frost is forecast for mid-November but often enough doesn't come until the end of November.


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## Green

Delmarva Keith said:


> Leaves keep falling through Christmas though. Fisrt frost is forecast for mid-November but often enough doesn't come until the end of November.


That has got to be annoying! I know it is when we have a warm year here and that happens. Usually the very last leaves Fall by May, but the bulk are usually down here by early Dec. when I'm doing the last mow. That doesn't mean more don't blow in from elsewhere, though...like last year...which was a nightmare. I did the "last mow" about 4 times last December, and was raking on Christmas Eve. Not only that, but it got really cold and snowed, so I never got to finish cleaning up the leaves in the low-input area...which probably contributed to more Winter kill. Last year was bad.


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## Green

jocoxVT said:


> Are there other recommendations other than Urea? I am in the Charlotte, NC area and for the life of me cannot find any. I called 5 feed/farm stores on Saturday with no luck.


Does your grass usually ever totally stop growing, or just slow drastically? Because if not, then using something with methylene urea like @Delmarva Keith (presumably) does and I do might be a really good fit in your situation. It should be more readily available, too, under the Scotts brand, as 32-0-4 or 26-0-2.


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## Mozart

When can I increase the N/1000sqft on new grass?

Right now I'm applying 0.25 weekly and it has been about 57 days since seed down. Can I up the dose to 0.5 or something more aggressive without concern for killing the grass?


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## njlawner

@Mozart My kbg overseed is about 47 days old, I had started feeding it .25 lb N after 30 days. This weekend I just upped it a little bit to .35 lb of N, didn't see any ill effects, might go up to .5 this coming weekend.


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## Harts

@Mozart I've been applying 0.5lbs N each week for the last 3 weeks with no visible short term negative effect.

As long as you are spreading evenly and watering it in, you'll be fine.

Today is Day 50 for me.


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## Mozart

Thanks @Harts and @njlawner. I think I'll try 0.5# this week.


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## jha4aamu

jocoxVT said:


> Are there other recommendations other than Urea? I am in the Charlotte, NC area and for the life of me cannot find any. I called 5 feed/farm stores on Saturday with no luck.


have you tried ammonium sulfate (21-0-0) i had a hard time finding urea too and went with that instead


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## kyles828

jocoxVT said:


> Are there other recommendations other than Urea? I am in the Charlotte, NC area and for the life of me cannot find any. I called 5 feed/farm stores on Saturday with no luck.


Did you try Ewing Irrigation on Westinghouse? I was there last week and I'm pretty sure I saw bags of urea.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Mozart said:


> Thanks @Harts and @njlawner. I think I'll try 0.5# this week.


I've applied .5 lb of Urea to 3 week old PRG/KBG that's been slit seeded with no issues or burns


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## jocoxVT

kyles828 said:


> Did you try Ewing Irrigation on Westinghouse? I was there last week and I'm pretty sure I saw bags of urea.


Sure didn't didn't even consider. Close to work I'll swing over on my lunch break. Thanks!


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## Methodical

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaves keep falling through Christmas though. Fisrt frost is forecast for mid-November but often enough doesn't come until the end of November.
> 
> 
> 
> That has got to be annoying! I know it is when we have a warm year here and that happens. Usually the very last leaves Fall by May, but the bulk are usually down here by early Dec. when I'm doing the last mow. That doesn't mean more don't blow in from elsewhere, though...like last year...which was a nightmare. I did the "last mow" about 4 times last December, and was raking on Christmas Eve. Not only that, but it got really cold and snowed, so I never got to finish cleaning up the leaves in the low-input area...which probably contributed to more Winter kill. Last year was bad.
Click to expand...

Treat yourself to a nice backpack blower to move those leaves. That's what I do. I don't like mulching leaves into my lawn.


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## Green

Methodical said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> Leaves keep falling through Christmas though. Fisrt frost is forecast for mid-November but often enough doesn't come until the end of November.
> 
> 
> 
> That has got to be annoying! I know it is when we have a warm year here and that happens. Usually the very last leaves Fall by May, but the bulk are usually down here by early Dec. when I'm doing the last mow. That doesn't mean more don't blow in from elsewhere, though...like last year...which was a nightmare. I did the "last mow" about 4 times last December, and was raking on Christmas Eve. Not only that, but it got really cold and snowed, so I never got to finish cleaning up the leaves in the low-input area...which probably contributed to more Winter kill. Last year was bad.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Treat yourself to a nice backpack blower to move those leaves. That's what I do. I don't like mulching leaves into my lawn.
Click to expand...

I don't use the lawn mower past early December usually, because it's too cold to wash it out, and the hoses have to come in.

But my real problem last year was that area was too wet to even walk on, and then it froze by mid December.

Someday, yes.


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## jocoxVT

kyles828 said:


> Did you try Ewing Irrigation on Westinghouse? I was there last week and I'm pretty sure I saw bags of urea.


For anyone in the Charlotte area who may stumble across this, Ewing didnt have any urea left but Green Resource, also on Westinghouse did ($18).


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## FuzzeWuzze

Seems about right, i paid 18.50 for my 50# bag of 46-0-0.


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## g-man

The Fall Nitrogen season should be at the last normal application for most of us (except those close to the transition zone). We had a very different fall this year. For me, air temperature went from a high of 90F to a high of ~ 40F in a month. Soil temperatures have been in the 11C (50F) range, which is still good.



If you want to do the winterizer, monitor when your mowing yields zero clippings. New research continues to suggest that this is wasteful and yields little benefit.

Lastly, I've noticed an increase of Leaf Spot in my area. I've also seen a few members posting images with Leaf Spot. If you have a reno, I suggest not taking a risk with it and treat it.


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## Mpcatch7

Hello all - new here. Appreciate all the great info! Dumb question, but... when mentioning 1 lb/k, is that 1 lb of urea, or 2 lbs of urea because the nitrogen content is 46%? Thanks in advance!


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## drcolossus11

1 lb of urea.


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