# Contemplating a switch to warm season grass



## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Sorry, I know this is long winded, but hoping you all may be able to provide some guidance. I live right outside of Charlotte, NC in Rock Hill SC. My wife and I built a house four years ago and at that time the landscaper suggested TTTF given that's what the rest of the neighborhood had and my wife saying she didn't want a brown yard in the winter. The issue we are running in to is that every summer my backyard, which predominantly gets sun all day, is dying out in the same spot and weeds take over. By the end of summer, my yard is a mixture of weeds with fescue tossed in here and there. I kill and reseed every year, happy with the results in the fall, only to be disappointed again mid-summer to the same problem. I was applying my own pre-emergents each year, but thinking I may have been the culprit, even hired Tru-Green this year. Seeing how there results were the exact same, I decided moving forward I would go at it on my own. I had another landscaper come in to fix drainage issues where I was constantly having standing water at the base of my house (installed a catch basin and burying all my downspouts). He said when they built my house, considering they had to dig out a decent amount to get to soil they could build on, my soil is extremely compacted and is the main culprit. In another area, he actually thinks I have an underground stream causing it to stay saturated for weeks at a time after heavy rain. He is told me the fescue isn't able to establish deep roots causing it to die even in the smallest amount of heat (I have started using RGS and AIR-8 to hopefully help with compaction). I have a sprinkler system, but of course, was also told it was designed incorrectly not getting true head to head coverage.

With all of that, potentially unnecessary, said, he told me I needed to switch to a warm season grass and I wouldnt have any issues. He told me that it would be able to withstand the heat and choke out the weeds and is more drought resistant than fescue so would handle my poor coverage better. He said I should go with Bermuda, Zoysia, or Centipede. Regardless, at this point, I am questioning if warm season grass truly is the answer. Is anything going to thrive if it cannot establish roots through my compacted soil? While it may be able to withstand drought better, wont it go dormant?

I asked the landscaper what his plan would be and he told me I would need to bring in dirt to smooth out the yard (still have a few low areas that collect water during rain) and put down sod. He said, while the sprinkler system should be fixed if I want to continue with fescue, he doesnt think its a necessity if I switch given its the very edges of my property that arent getting hit. I know nothing is ever a guarantee, but if this truly would give me a better yard, I don't mind shelling out and doing it right. Not that I think he is trying to just make some quick money, but would this truly provide better chance of success? Luckily, my wife is on board saying she just wants a yard the kids can play in as opposed to the dirt/dust pit we get every summer and can/will live with the dormancy period in Winter.


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

With a warm season grass.. you're grass will survive all summer with hardly any issues (outside of outside problems such as bugs, MAJOR drought, etc). In the winter, it goes dormant but comes right back the following warm season.

TTTF.. re-seed every year. Fight fungus big time. Grass will die and not grow back. Rinse and repeat. No true self-repair. But, it doesn't turn brown for the whole winter.

Your drainage issues will cause problems with most grasses I'd think though. Maybe not as bad on the warm season?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If you like the look of fescue, I would switch to zoysia. If you don't mind a higher input lawn, consider bluemuda.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I am partial to bermuda due to the fact that it is faster to repair itself from damage compared to Zoysia. Once you get the bermuda down and cared for you could always overseed the lawn with Perennial Rye in the Fall to have a green lawn over the Winter months. You will also be surprised at how resilient bermuda can be and it will grow on damn near anything


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Thank you all for the responses. To be honest, I dont mind brown in the winter. My bigger concern was the poor coverage of my sprinklers and the compacted clay soil and anything being able to do well. When he mentioned the switch and I started to investigate, I was drawn towards bermuda but while the back gets sun all day my sides and very front have some tree cover that it may not be the best bet.

Regardless, thank you all, it sounds like something I really should give serious consideration to as it may thrive more given my compaction.


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## sanders4617 (Jul 9, 2018)

Multi-pass aeration. I'd definitely have that done. Then add in your Air8 and other soil amendments. It will get better.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

The key is the right plant in the right place.

You need to consider climate, amount of sunlight, and wear and tear.

My vote is to get a light meter and evaluate the low light areas.

If you got the irrigation issues resolved, would you stick with the TTTF?


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

Pete from GCI Turf phrases it something like. Everything he does during the year is training the grass and preparing it for the summer because during those couple of hot months TTTF is way out of its comfort zone.

Here's a link to his YouTube. Maybe watching his stuff will help you decide. If your not going to switch next spring, you're late on an overseed this year (assuming you haven't done one yet).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDxIJ2o0slIc3jDW2ETODPg


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

samjonester said:


> Pete from GCI Turf phrases it something like. Everything he does during the year is training the grass and preparing it for the summer because during those couple of hot months TTTF is way out of its comfort zone.


Yeah I am subscribed to Pete and actually used his seed to renovate this year.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> If you got the irrigation issues resolved, would you stick with the TTTF?


What a question! To be honest, its a tough one. I like how TTTF stays green year round but I am not sure what else would draw me to it over a warm season grass. Not to say that Bermuda is easier, but the more I read about it the more that seems beneficial when compared to TTTF. I am a big fan of self healing/spreading. That is one of my most frustrating part with TTTF. If something happens in the summer or even late spring and I lose a section I am left staring at bare dirt until the fall and i put more seed down. Dont get me wrong, im a novice at all of this so those issues are usually my fault but I like that bermuda will naturally fill in.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

For Bermuda, the issue is simply going to be do you have enough sunlight. TTTF will tolerate reduce light way better than Bermuda. I get your point regarding the damaged area is being bare dirt until you can re-seed. However, if you go with Bermuda and don't have enough sunlight you will never be able to get it to thrive, so basically a bare dirt area year round, unless you do landscaping.

If you have plenty of sunlight, bermuda all day long.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> If you have plenty of sunlight, bermuda all day long.


The area with the bare spot is in the backyard and it gets sun all day long. My concern is on the sides of my house as they are lined by tall pines and the very front of my property for the same reason. I am going to get a light meter per another users suggestion and see what I am working with. However, the main problem area I am confident that light wont be an issue.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

My point is that you will be trading one bad area for another, and maybe you're cool with that cause the others are hidden or easier to manage.

My vote would be to get DLI light meter.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> My point is that you will be trading one bad area for another, and maybe you're cool with that cause the others are hidden or easier to manage.
> 
> My vote would be to get DLI light meter.


I'm following. One has been ordered from Amazon and I'll update once I know the results


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Which did you get?


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> Which did you get?


Dr. Meter LX1330B. Purchased from Amazon. Obviously not top of the line but reviews looked promising and hope it provides enough accuracy for what I need.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I am not a light expert. I used a light scout DLI 100. It measures light over the entire day, since the intensity will vary over time of day, and due to cloud cover. It runs for 24h collecting/measuring then you can turn it back on to get the results. It also gives you the current light intensity at some short specific intervals; 30s maybe.

The challenge is that you're going to be talking snapshots that may not be reflective of what the turf is going to get all day. Plus, the angle of the sun and length of the day is going to change depending on the time of year.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> The challenge is that you're going to be talking snapshots that may not be reflective of what the turf is going to get all day. Plus, the angle of the sun and length of the day is going to change depending on the time of year.


Good point. Looks like I'll be returning the amazon purchase. Thanks for the heads up.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Also, amount of light this time of year will be different.

https://postlmg.cc/mPytLZrq

https://floridaturf.com/2013/01/17/quantifying-light-requirements-of-turfgrass-using-daily-light-integral/


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## Still learnin (Sep 9, 2017)

I am contemplating the same thing. Mainly because of the ability to self repair. I hate having bare spots, hate renting equipment and buying seed every fall, and hate mowing high. Grass looks great early spring and late fall. Looks terrible in summer when we are outside.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

For you cool season guys that are considering switching, how often do you have to cut the grass? How often are you willing to cut the grass?

Warm season guys - how often do you need to cut the grass?
With low N and PGR, at 1.25", once a week.
With high N, and no PGR, at 0.75", every 2-3 days during the peak of the summer. My yard is 1/3rd of an acre. Just keep in mind when someone says they cut every day but their yard is the size of a postage stamp.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

/\
Bermuda perspective
Keep in mind, most common (>90%) is 1 week if I had to guess


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> For you cool season guys that are considering switching, how often do you have to cut the grass? How often are you willing to cut the grass?


I currently try to maintain tttf and cut once a week. Realistically if I switched I would be willing to cut however much is needed but would most likely just weed eat/edge once a week. I'm on an acre but half of it is wooded so only have to cut about 12k square feet. Cutting that by itself only takes 30 minutes max


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## BakerGreenLawnMaker (Mar 13, 2018)

jocoxVT said:


> Sorry, I know this is long winded, but hoping you all may be able to provide some guidance. I live right outside of Charlotte, NC in Rock Hill SC. My wife and I built a house four years ago and at that time the landscaper suggested TTTF given that's what the rest of the neighborhood had and my wife saying she didn't want a brown yard in the winter. The issue we are running in to is that every summer my backyard, which predominantly gets sun all day, is dying out in the same spot and weeds take over. By the end of summer, my yard is a mixture of weeds with fescue tossed in here and there. I kill and reseed every year, happy with the results in the fall, only to be disappointed again mid-summer to the same problem. I was applying my own pre-emergents each year, but thinking I may have been the culprit, even hired Tru-Green this year. Seeing how there results were the exact same, I decided moving forward I would go at it on my own. I had another landscaper come in to fix drainage issues where I was constantly having standing water at the base of my house (installed a catch basin and burying all my downspouts). He said when they built my house, considering they had to dig out a decent amount to get to soil they could build on, my soil is extremely compacted and is the main culprit. In another area, he actually thinks I have an underground stream causing it to stay saturated for weeks at a time after heavy rain. He is told me the fescue isn't able to establish deep roots causing it to die even in the smallest amount of heat (I have started using RGS and AIR-8 to hopefully help with compaction). I have a sprinkler system, but of course, was also told it was designed incorrectly not getting true head to head coverage.
> 
> With all of that, potentially unnecessary, said, he told me I needed to switch to a warm season grass and I wouldnt have any issues. He told me that it would be able to withstand the heat and choke out the weeds and is more drought resistant than fescue so would handle my poor coverage better. He said I should go with Bermuda, Zoysia, or Centipede. Regardless, at this point, I am questioning if warm season grass truly is the answer. Is anything going to thrive if it cannot establish roots through my compacted soil? While it may be able to withstand drought better, wont it go dormant?
> 
> I asked the landscaper what his plan would be and he told me I would need to bring in dirt to smooth out the yard (still have a few low areas that collect water during rain) and put down sod. He said, while the sprinkler system should be fixed if I want to continue with fescue, he doesnt think its a necessity if I switch given its the very edges of my property that arent getting hit. I know nothing is ever a guarantee, but if this truly would give me a better yard, I don't mind shelling out and doing it right. Not that I think he is trying to just make some quick money, but would this truly provide better chance of success? Luckily, my wife is on board saying she just wants a yard the kids can play in as opposed to the dirt/dust pit we get every summer and can/will live with the dormancy period in Winter.


@jocoxVT, it's a small world, I too live in Rock Hill, SC. From experience I will say that a warm season grass is the ticket around here. My first house was across town down the road from Nichols Store, and I seeded my yard every year with Tall Fescue only to see it die out in mid-July even when I was watering it on schedule. We moved close to Winthrop three years ago and my new lawn is St Augustine. Many on here who have St Aug will tell you if mowed consistently and proper fertilization is used, it's a grass that takes care of it's self. Gotta be honest, don't waist another dime on cool season grass in this area, it'll draw you in for a the very few cool months we have here to only let you down during the hot summer days.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

BakerGreenLawnMaker said:


> Gotta be honest, don't waist another dime on cool season grass in this area, it'll draw you in for a the very few cool months we have here to only let you down during the hot summer days.


Thats what I am realizing! Glad to find another person from Rock Hill on these boards. I am off Mt. Gallant on the lake side by Ebenezer Park. I have convinced my wife (although she doesnt know how much the SOD will cost yet) but am now trying to make the determination on which warm season grass would be best given my sun exposure.


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## fp_911 (Apr 10, 2017)

It really depends on what direction your house faces too. I'm in Davidson, just north of Charlotte, and our previous home at TTTF and it did fine as long as we watered it every two days. The front yard faced south though so no direct sunlight.

The new home has Bermuda and although I hated it at first some of my neighbors have changed back to tall fescue and in the summer their yards are disasters. My front yard now faces west so the Bermuda just soaks up the sun. I'm not a fan of the brown look in winter but learned to accept it.

I only mow once a week but you have to be on top of it or it will get out of control. Good luck on your decision!


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## BakerGreenLawnMaker (Mar 13, 2018)

@jocoxVT, did you set your mind on the warm season sod?


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## Bermuda_Newbie (Jun 15, 2018)

I made the same decision last year. After spending a fair amount of money on new sod of TTTF only to have it die in spots and cost me a small fortune to keep watered, I had the whole thing redone to Bermuda. So glad I did. I like the look of Bermuda and already had it in my back yard so it wasn't a huge change for me. I already had a reel mower as well. Ultimately, you have to be happy with the look of your grass. I didn't want to keep reseeding every year and fighting the weeds that would inevitably grow because of the heat in my area that killed off the Fescue every year. Some people though, my neighbor for example, is willing to do a ton of extra work to keep her Fescue looking good. I can't afford the water bill when it's over 100 degrees for months on end. I was watering for 45 minutes 3 times a week and it was still dying. This will be my first full season with Bermuda in my front yard. I'm excited! Good luck to you whichever you decide.


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## Kballen11 (Mar 26, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> I am partial to bermuda due to the fact that it is faster to repair itself from damage compared to Zoysia. Once you get the bermuda down and cared for you could always overseed the lawn with Perennial Rye in the Fall to have a green lawn over the Winter months. You will also be surprised at how resilient bermuda can be and it will grow on damn near anything


+1. You are having to reseed every year now anyway but at least with this option you wouldn't have the current summer time issues you are currently having.


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## jocoxVT (Apr 25, 2018)

BakerGreenLawnMaker said:


> @jocoxVT, did you set your mind on the warm season sod?


Sorry for the delayed response. I actually decided to give fescue another run this year. I talked to Matt Martin/Paul and shared my soil test results and my bigger issue is still the high levels of metal I have in my soils. My iron and Manganese were both through the roof. Matt said its no wonder I cant keep anything established. The recommendation is to till in compost every year over the next few years and multiple passes of aeration multiple times a year to see if that helps. With all of this rain we have gotten recently I have standing water everywhere as even that cant penetrate the ground.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

My EXPERT advice 

1.) Kill what's there
2.) Repair irrigation and get a proper layout
3.) bring in dirt and level as suggested
4.) put down new sod

Resist the temptation to skip step two.


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