# Soil Surfactants/Wetting agents?



## Redtenchu

Has anyone tried these in the past or have any experience using them? I stumbled upon  cascade plus 16g, and was intrigued. The Cascade plus 16G is granular and is applied with a broadcast spreader every 4-6 months (covers 5700 SF at the max rate). I know the liquid forms are cheaper, but I'm already applying so much monthly, I'd like something that lasts the entire growing season. I'm only applying it to a small 3k lawn, so the bag might last me 2 seasons?

The link above has the price at $110+70S&H(ouch) for THE 42lb bag.


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## Mightyquinn

I tried Cascde Plus (Granular) a few years ago as the local TruCut(Now my Baroness) Dealer stocks Precision Labs products. I think I payed about the same price without shipping obviously for the bags. I put it down but didn't really pay it too much mind as I ran into other issues with the lawn at the time. It's suppose to be really good stuff but I prefer the liquid over the granular as I don't trust the "long term" residual of the granular.

I really like the idea of a wetting agent in the fact that it gives a more uniform wetting of the soil than just water alone and that is my reason for starting it again this year with Tournament Ready. I always seem to get some LDS(Localized Dry Spots) in the lawn and I am hoping this alleviates some of it. I prefer the liquid as it is too easy to apply when I'm applying other things to the lawn as it will(Should) mix with anything as it is basically a soap. The price of this has gone up here recently as I bought mine for around $188 with free shipping. Any other benefits I can gain from it will be a plus. I have also read that when using a wetting agent the more you use it the better results you will get so it's not a one and done kind of thing.

I haven't applied the Tournament Ready yet as I still have some Lesco Moisture Manager left over from 2 years ago that I am trying to use up, I'm not too sure how it works either but it's not as an advanced formula as Tournament Ready is. I also have a EZ-FLO hooked up to my irrigation so I bought some H20 Maximizer Pellets to add to the tank to give the soil a little extra boost each time I water the lawn. I haven't added this either as I am wanting to wait until the lawn gets thicker to start applying it but I may just go ahead here soon regardless.

So as you can see I have dabbled in the past with them but kind of just let them go after applying. This year I plan on taking note of everything so I can tell a difference or not. Here is a good article on Wetting Agents


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## GrassDaddy

I used aqueduct and saw the results quickly. I think it was $60. Within a week the lawn went from brown to green it was crazy. Now I try to do home made conditioner frequently although I haven't this year.

http://aquatrols.com/aqueduct/


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## Mightyquinn

GrassDaddy said:


> I used aqueduct and saw the results quickly. I think it was $60. Within a week the lawn went from brown to green it was crazy. Now I try to do home made conditioner frequently although I haven't this year.
> 
> http://aquatrols.com/aqueduct/


Where were you able to find it at? Local or online?


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## GrassDaddy

Local, I just asked what surfactants they had and that's what they had.


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## Redtenchu

I decided to give this a shot, found this product sold in a 32oz size for $22+s&h. For that price, I don't mind giving it a test run.

https://youtu.be/XFM2D6nQMac


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## Virginiagal

Why not just use baby shampoo in a hose end sprayer? I have done that and it really helped.


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## Redtenchu

Virginiagal said:


> Why not just use baby shampoo in a hose end sprayer? I have done that and it really helped.


I've also tried Baby Shampoo, but didn't notice much effect. Maybe I didn't apply enough, or often enough. What rate & schedule did you use?


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## dfw_pilot

I'd buy it just because of the good bluegrass banjo music!

I tried looking for Cascade a few years ago and couldn't find any locally. I even emailed the company for local distributors and heard nothing back. I guess Costco and Walmart sell it in the detergent section, though.


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## GrassDaddy

Virginiagal said:


> Why not just use baby shampoo in a hose end sprayer? I have done that and it really helped.


I've used both. The shampoo/home made stuff works but much slower. The pro grade stuff is designed for "instant" results. A lot of it is geared towards golf courses where they can't wait it out. What I did with my lawn was used the pro-grade stuff immediately and then now I try to do the home made stuff to keep it in check.


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## Redtenchu

GrassDaddy said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why not just use baby shampoo in a hose end sprayer? I have done that and it really helped.
> 
> 
> 
> I've used both. The shampoo/home made stuff works but much slower. The pro grade stuff is designed for "instant" results. A lot of it is geared towards golf courses where they can't wait it out. What I did with my lawn was used the pro-grade stuff immediately and then now I try to do the home made stuff to keep it in check.
Click to expand...

I could see how using a combo of 2 methods might work better than one. Did you make a video about this yet?


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## Virginiagal

It's been awhile since I did the shampoo. Maybe 3 oz/k? It was whatever David Hall was recommending. I did it just the one time and it softened a compacted area.


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## Ware

Redtenchu said:


> I could see how using a combo of 2 methods might work better than one. Did you make a video about this yet?


That is one of the marketing points of the Underhill Tournament Ready - it is supposed to be a blend of three different surfactant ingredients... 3 > 1, right? :lol:

I've been using it on the premise of what it is supposed to do, but I feel it would be nearly impossible to accurately judge the effectiveness of these products outside of a laboratory environment. There are just too many variables present on a home lawn - weather, turf conditions, and soil moisture all vary wildly throughout the season. We also never see the same rain event twice. This makes me skeptical that I could personally compare the true effectiveness of different wetting agents on my lawn.


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## GrassDaddy

Redtenchu said:


> I could see how using a combo of 2 methods might work better than one. Did you make a video about this yet?


I did one on the BLSC but not on comparing the two. The pro grade stuff I used a bag 2 years ago on the slope. Water would run off so even with irrigation the lawn went dormant.

When I used shampoos and blsc its taken longer to see the results. That other stuff was a week later. Now like you said I dont have data to show weather differences and maybe the home brew if I just used a tiny bit more would have been the same.


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## Mightyquinn

I want to do a little more research on this whole soap vs wetting agent discussion but from what I have read and researched already it seems like wetting agents are designed with polymers and the like to "cling" to the soil particles and stay there longer than a soap would. Most soaps are designed to be washed away after application so I'm not sure what lasting effect they would have. This is all my thoughts on the situation.

Red, what are you looking for in the use of wetting agents? not all wetting agents are the same as some will "hold" water while others are designed to "pull" water. I believe Pantera is designed to "pull" water away from the top layer of soil. I've watched several YouTube videos about it.


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## Ware

And yeah, I agree on seeing results - I just think it would be difficult to quantify/judge how much better one product may be than another on my lawn because the conditions are never the same. :thumbup:


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## Redtenchu

MQ, I'm looking to pull/move water. Not hold.


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## Mightyquinn

Redtenchu said:


> MQ, I'm looking to pull/move water. Not hold.


Cool!! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on it once you use it.


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## GrassDaddy

Great point on the types.. The bag I had was more a recovery product for dry spot. The same company has a variety for different things.

I wish I saved it but i saw a video where a golf course used a type to allow water to drain quickly off the greens. They sprayed a hose and the grass took it like a drain it was crazy.

I'm definitely interested in learning more too!


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## SGrabs33

Mightyquinn said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> MQ, I'm looking to pull/move water. Not hold.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool!! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on it once you use it.
Click to expand...

I'm also interested to hear you thoughts. I have a few spots in my yard that have slight pooling, particularly my swale. I am hoping that some sand in the right areas will help but would definitely give this a try if it's helpful.


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## SGrabs33

Mightyquinn said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> MQ, I'm looking to pull/move water. Not hold.
> 
> 
> 
> Cool!! I'll be curious to hear your thoughts on it once you use it.
Click to expand...

Am I right in my limited research that Lesco Moisture Manager is more of a holder? Benefiting long droughts and such. While Tournament Ready is more of a puller, trying to remove the moisture from the surface of the ground? also reducing the surface tension?

I have looked at a few Lesco Products(through SiteOne aka JDL). I believe both of these are also more of pullers, reducing surface tension and allowing water to more easily penetrate the soil.

LescoFlo Ultra (fyi $178 per 2.5 gal local SiteOne). 1-2 apps per season recommended
LescoWet Plus(fyi $125 per 2.5 gal local SiteOne). monthly apps recommended

I would be looking to remove water quicker from my swell and also hopefully allow the grass at the top of my hill near the sidewalk take in water more easily. Rather than losing it to runoff whenever it rains.



Thanks!


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## Mightyquinn

You are correct in that LMM is designed to hold water, so it may work for your hill. Something like Pantera, that Red is going to try should work for your swale. I'm still new to this also but I am willing to experiment to find what works best for each situation.

All wetting agents will improve water distribution in the soil regardless of there mode of action.

I too need to do some more research on them and thanks for the prices at Site One as there appears to be some good alternatives at a fair price.


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## SGrabs33

This seems to be a pretty good article on the subject Understanding The Different Wetting Agent Chemistries. Though, I think I am going to have to read it a few times to understand it all. Sounds like Tournament Ready is the good stuff, along with a product called Revolution which seems to be even more expensive. Thought the price per all depends on application rates obviously.


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## Ware

SGrabs33 said:


> This seems to be a pretty good article on the subject Understanding The Different Wetting Agent Chemistries. Though, I think I am going to have to read it a few times to understand it all. Sounds like Tournament Ready is the good stuff, along with a product called Revolution which seems to be even more expensive. Thought the price per all depends on application rates obviously.


Some quick math on the Tournament Ready... it is currently priced $0.64/oz shipped in the 2.5gal jug at Sprinkler Warehouse. The "monthly maintenance treatment rate" is 4oz per thousand, so you're looking at a cost of $2.56/mo per thousand.

Note that they do suggest a double rate application the first month. Here is a link to the product label.


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## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> This seems to be a pretty good article on the subject Understanding The Different Wetting Agent Chemistries.


+1, I linked the same article in my first post in this thread and is definitely a good read!

Lesco Flo and Lesco Wet appear to be very similar and are both designed to "hold" water in the root zone. The higher price of Lesco Flo is because it only requires 1-2 applications per year. I haven't seen anything on SIteOne that is designed to "pull" water from an area. I will definitely keep these two in mind for my next wetting agent purchase. I do know the Lesco Moisture Manager uses "old" technology which why it is much cheaper than the other 2. I'm thinking of doing an experiment with some soil and the various wetting agents I currently have on hand to see if I can tell a difference or not. Also going to try the soap with it too!


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## Redtenchu

I received the Penterra today. I was excited to apply it because we are expecting lots of rain (flooding) this weekend. I'm hoping it helps move water as advertised.









As I began to apply the Penterra at 1oz/1k, I could definitely tell it was powerful! No Dye was added, or needed! 









*Now let me set a few thing straight before you look at the next 2 pictures....*
The following pictures have been taken from different sections of my lawn, at different times of the year, different HOC, different watering amounts, different Temps, different everything! This is just for fun but to me it's amazing! 

This is early fall of last year, water would bead and roll off like I had applied RainX to it.









This is while I was washing out my sprayer, the hose had run for 20-30 seconds before I had taken this picture. It was amazing how the water was just absorbing into the ground! I'm very excited!


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## Ware

Tournament Ready leaves a similar oily film on the plant material.


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## GrassDaddy

That last one with the hose is sweet. I saw a video at a golf course where they did that. I thought it was fake at first!


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## Redtenchu

GrassDaddy said:


> That last one with the hose is sweet. I saw a video at a golf course where they did that. I thought it was fake at first!


Is it crazy, right? I'm impressed so far!


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## Mightyquinn

Redtenchu said:


> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That last one with the hose is sweet. I saw a video at a golf course where they did that. I thought it was fake at first!
> 
> 
> 
> Is it crazy, right? I'm impressed so far!
Click to expand...

Looks amazing Red!! Did you follow the directions completely? And what are they BTW?


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## Redtenchu

Mightyquinn said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> That last one with the hose is sweet. I saw a video at a golf course where they did that. I thought it was fake at first!
> 
> 
> 
> Is it crazy, right? I'm impressed so far!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Looks amazing Red!! Did you follow the directions completely? And what are they BTW?
Click to expand...

Instructions are a little lacking in comparison to most other products I've applied (PGR/Pre/Post).

But it's 1oz/1k for the first app, then 0.50-1oz/1k each month after (as needed).

Didn't follow this part: After application, hand water or run irrigation for 5-10 minutes.


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## Redtenchu

I'm expecting rain tonight.


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## Mightyquinn

Redtenchu said:


> Didn't follow this part: After application, hand water or run irrigation for 5-10 minutes.


I think that is the MOST important part of the directions when it comes to wetting agents as they don't work well on the blades. Hopefully you get that rain tonight!


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## Redtenchu

Mightyquinn said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Didn't follow this part: After application, hand water or run irrigation for 5-10 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that is the MOST important part of the directions when it comes to wetting agents as they don't work well on the blades. Hopefully you get that rain tonight!
Click to expand...

Yes, that's a good tip!

If I wasn't 100% sure of a down pour tonight (and the rest of this weekend) I would've watered it all in.


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## Ware

I bet that verticut helped a lot with the surface streaming too.


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## Redtenchu

Ware said:


> I bet that verticut helped a lot with the surface streaming too.


+1


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## SGrabs33

Redtenchu said:


> I'm expecting rain tonight.


Very interested to here how it handles the storm. That hose pic is pretty encouraging!


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## Redtenchu

FYI - The 32oz of penterra was $40 with S&H ($1.25/oz).


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## Redtenchu

More good information.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5J-mmcOg2g&t=208s


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## GrassDaddy

Very interesting video


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## Redtenchu

Here we are 24 hours after app, I've got a few things to share with ya'll!

My side yard holds water for days after an inch or more of rain. I don't mind it much because it's "out of sight, out of mind." But it makes a good spot to test the water movement of Penterra.



























^^^ normally looks like this after 24-36 hours ^^^


















And it's currently pouring rain... ugh.

PS: I'm still not sure if penterra is better or worse than Baby Shampoo, TR or a home made mix. I do feel like it had some effect on my lawn, that's all I'm trying to share.


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## Mightyquinn

Looks like it's sucking rain from your neighbors yard too!!


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## Redtenchu

Mightyquinn said:


> Looks like it's sucking rain from your neighbors yard too!!


If it's sucks much more water, the runway in china will be too wet for DFW_pilot to land!


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## dfw_pilot

LOL


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## Spammage

I'm curious about the Penterra as well. My only concern is that it is anionic which "can" cause dispersion of fine clay soils. This is the reason I stopped using the BLSC before. The more I used it the worse my ponding problem got. I'm working more on trying to find a flocculant now.

FYI I ordered some Turf2Max last year and it was tremendous. It originated in Oklahoma and has a "murky" history, but worked wonders for my clay. I can finally use my proplugger without having to scrape each individual plug out of it. For the record, I did research the Turf2Max​ and found it is the same product sold to the agriculture industry under a different name. I used to have to avoid one area of my yard for 5+ days after a heavy rain. Now I can mow within a few hours.


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## Redtenchu

Turf2Max looks interesting. I may need to try that out!


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## SGrabs33

Redtenchu said:


> Here we are 24 hours after app, I've got a few things to share with ya'll!
> 
> My side yard holds water for days after an inch or more of rain. I don't mind it much because it's "out of sight, out of mind." But it makes a good spot to test the water movement of Penterra.
> 
> And it's currently pouring rain... ugh.
> 
> PS: I'm still not sure if penterra is better or worse than Baby Shampoo, TR or a home made mix. I do feel like it had some effect on my lawn, that's all I'm trying to share.


How much rain did you get before the 830 pic? If over an inch id say that Panterra a pretty good job of decreasing the standing water from 830-1030!


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## Redtenchu

SGrabs33 said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here we are 24 hours after app, I've got a few things to share with ya'll!
> 
> My side yard holds water for days after an inch or more of rain. I don't mind it much because it's "out of sight, out of mind." But it makes a good spot to test the water movement of Penterra.
> 
> And it's currently pouring rain... ugh.
> 
> PS: I'm still not sure if penterra is better or worse than Baby Shampoo, TR or a home made mix. I do feel like it had some effect on my lawn, that's all I'm trying to share.
> 
> 
> 
> How much rain did you get before the 830 pic? If over an inch id say that Panterra a pretty good job of decreasing the standing water from 830-1030!
Click to expand...

We ended up with 1.6 inches that day. The biggest issue with this section is the runoff coming from the street behind me. So this area sees a lot more water than whatever falls from the sky.

Not the best but... Here is a picture of the draining water.


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## Redtenchu

We received a little more rain Sunday, but I wasn't home to take any pictures.

Here is a pic of that area on Monday around 4pm, an improvement!


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## SGrabs33

That's good to hear! Now I just meet to decide which of these products to try out. Panterra def sounds like a good option.

I know about runoff from neighbors yards. This is from my back 2 neighbors, my buried drainage, and the neighbor to the side's French drain.


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## jbrown

Where is a good place to buy Penterra?

Thanks

JB


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## SGrabs33

You can buy it from their actual site.

Penterra


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## Redtenchu

Mightyquinn said:


> Looks amazing Red!! Did you follow the directions completely? And what are they BTW?


Was reading a little more and realized I didn't apply as directed!

The instructions want 1oz/K with 5G of water. I used about 1.3G

The directions also recommend watering in after application. It didn't start raining until 6am, so that's about a 12Hour gap.

Not sure what effect, if any, these mistakes may have had. I'll apply as directed next time.


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## SGrabs33

So you used the greens and tees application, but with 1.3 gal and not 5? Any reason you used that and not the recommendation for home use initial app: 4oz per 1ksqft with 50 gallons of water   

I don't know what affect it will not using with 50 gal of water. That is obvi much more than most of us can use to mix.


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## Redtenchu

I try to follow the application rates based on my HOC (Fairway/Tee). The app rate is also 1oz/k with 5G for Fairway & athletic fields. My bench HOC is currently 0.25, most home lawns are at 2-4 inches.

At the very least, that's the logic I use.

Either way, I didn't do it right... 

Good thing I don't get paid to do this job, I'd be fired! :lol:


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## Mightyquinn

From everything I have read, the point of watering it in is to get the product down to where it's going to work before it "bonds" itself to the soil, if that makes sense. The deeper you water it in, the deeper it will pull water to that point.

I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them


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## SGrabs33

:roll:


Mightyquinn said:


> I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them


Ok, I just bought 32oz to give it a try. Just over $32 with shipping. Though, I am not sure if I am going to volunteer for the above :dunno:


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## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> :roll:
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, I just bought 32oz to give it a try. Just over $32 with shipping. Though, I am not sure if I am going to volunteer for the above :dunno:
Click to expand...

I think the key is to get it watered in before it dries and you should be just fine. Curious to see if you get the same effect as Red did!


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## j4c11

Mightyquinn said:


> I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them


I always spray my pre-emergent right before or while it's raining :mrgreen: 
I don't have an irrigation system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So does this help with reducing watering needs during summer? I need all the help I can get.


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## Mightyquinn

j4c11 said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them
> 
> 
> 
> I always spray my pre-emergent right before or while it's raining :mrgreen:
> I don't have an irrigation system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> So does this help with reducing watering needs during summer? I need all the help I can get.
Click to expand...

It "can" help but not sure how much. I think it has a lot to do with your soil type. It can make the water you do get more efficient as it will distribute in the soil more evenly and reduce the effects of LDS(Localized Dry Spots).

Other types of Wetting Agents like what Red and SGrabbs are using (Pantera) are designed to "pull" the water down through the soil to help dry it out faster. Be sure what you are getting suits your needs.


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## GrassDaddy

A good way to explain it.. I have irrigation and set to water an inch a week. Yet the lawn dried out in a certain area. I could over water it but instead I put down a surfactant. that allowed the water to penetrate the soil and it greened up like the rest of the lawn.

so you still need the water, but it helps use all the water efficiently.


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## Mightyquinn

GrassDaddy said:


> A good way to explain it.. I have irrigation and set to water an inch a week. Yet the lawn dried out in a certain area. I could over water it but instead I put down a surfactant. that allowed the water to penetrate the soil and it greened up like the rest of the lawn.
> 
> so you still need the water, but it helps use all the water efficiently.


Well said and great example!!!!!


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## j4c11

What about that Hydretain stuff, anyone try it? Does it make a difference?


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## Mightyquinn

Hydretain and Lesco Moisture Manager are basically the same product.

http://www.moisturemanager.com


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## GrassDaddy

so I have thought about perilite stuff they use in potting mix to store water. if using a physical item like that in your soil would help.


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## Mightyquinn

GrassDaddy said:


> so I have thought about perilite stuff they use in potting mix to store water. if using a physical item like that in your soil would help.


I can't see it hurting at all but it would be something you would need to incorporate into the soil 3-6" deep before seeding or sodding.


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## GrassDaddy

maybe aerate and fill the holes like the golf courses do with sand? might be expensive


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## j4c11

Inspired by this thread, I sprayed an RTS bottle of Lesco Moisture Manager last evening. It was only $22 so I figured what the heck, I'll give it a go. Managed to sandwich it in between two rains, which should meet the two provisions on the label that for best results soil should be moist, and that it should be watered in no later than 24 hours after application. The ingredient list says 50% humectants(hydretain presumably), 15% NIS, 35% inert. There were soap bubbles flying everywhere while I was spraying, but the sprayer bottle actually works great and I will keep it to apply other stuff like baby shampoo with it. With my soil being clay-y, I notice when I water the garden that I get runoff fairly quickly. If nothing else, maybe the NIS will help with that.

Hopefully between the Lesco Moisture Manager working from the bottom and the PGR working from the top, I can get a noticeable increase in drought resistance. I need all the help I can get with summer approaching.


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## SGrabs33

Any thoughts on if spreading fertilizer and using a soil surfactant (Penterra) is a bad idea. We are going to get really warm weather this week and I'd like to get some fertilizer down/water it in and get Penterra down/water it in also. I see on their website it says......Penterra assists fertilizers and plants by increasing plant nutrient uptake and keeping the soil aerobic by increasing the amount of oxygen exchanged with the soil profile."
I'm not sure about doing them at the same time though. I would like to knock two birds out with one stone if possible. Thanks


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## Redtenchu

In this order should work wonderful.

1. Fertilizer.
2. Soil surfactant.
3. Water all in sufficiently.

Good luck! Take some before and after pictures if you find the time!


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## SGrabs33

Redtenchu said:


> In this order should work wonderful.
> 
> 1. Fertilizer.
> 2. Soil surfactant.
> 3. Water all in sufficiently.
> 
> Good luck! Take some before and after pictures if you find the time!


Thanks for the advice Red.

I got the Panterra down tonight at a rate of just over 3oz per 1k sq ft. I did the math so that I would have 4 apps at the maintenance rate of 1oz per 1k left in the bottle. So if the bottle of Panterra was 32oz, how many sq ft am I spraying. You didnt think you would have to do math tonight did ya.

Anyways... I also got the feet down before the Panterra and I am watering in everything right now. Would definitely be nice to have irrigation right about now but I'll make due.

I'll try and take a few pictures tomorrow. I think maybe of some of the localized dry spots that I have. That might be the best representation.


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## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> In this order should work wonderful.
> 
> 1. Fertilizer.
> 2. Soil surfactant.
> 3. Water all in sufficiently.
> 
> Good luck! Take some before and after pictures if you find the time!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice Red.
> 
> I got the Panterra down tonight at a rate of just over 3oz per 1k sq ft. I did the math so that I would have 4 apps at the maintenance rate of 1oz per 1k left in the bottle. So if the bottle of Panterra was 32oz, how many sq ft am I spraying. You didnt think you would have to do math tonight did ya.
> 
> Anyways... I also got the feet down before the Panterra and I am watering in everything right now. Would definitely be nice to have irrigation right about now but I'll make due.
> 
> I'll try and take a few pictures tomorrow. I think maybe of some of the localized dry spots that I have. That might be the best representation.
Click to expand...

I think Red is in bed already 

I'll guess 4.5K of lawn. :thumbup:

Curious how the Panterra will work with your LDS as I don't think it's designed for that but I guess we will see. Looks like we aren't getting any real rain until Monday, I'm not keeping my fingers crossed for Saturday :roll:


----------



## SGrabs33

Haha. Guess I will catch him tomorrow

Yep, 4.5ish is right

Yeah, I am most interested in its effects in my swale but it also mentioned it would help for LDS. I think that might be a more observable difference than my swale, at least via picture. I agree with you on the rain, I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon.


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> Yeah, I am most interested in its effects in my swale but it also mentioned it would help for LDS. I think that might be a more observable difference than my swale, at least via picture. I agree with you on the rain, I wouldn't bet on it anytime soon.


I don't know how I missed that info on the LDS :shock: Thanks for the link and I hope it works for you :thumbup:

Panterra seems like an inexpensive way to get your feet wet  with surfactants/wetting agents.


----------



## SGrabs33

Here is a before and after shot. The before is from last night and the after is from this morning. After application I watered it in with a little over 1" of water from my National Walking Sprinkler.



I definitely think the Penterra is working but I will have to wait until we have another large storm to really have it tested out. There was much less standing water than what I would usually have after 1" of rain. I will be very happy if all the standing water is gone this afternoon and everything is mostly dry. Previously, I couldn't mow the day after a rain because I would make tire tracks in and around the swale. I took a few other pics of problem spots around my yard which I will do a side my side comparison with at some point in the future.


----------



## Redtenchu

Thanks for sharing SGrabs33, Looking good so far, can't wait for an update.


----------



## SGrabs33

There was no standing water last night, a little less than 24hrs after application and 1" of water. I walked around with bare feet and the ground was wet, but not enough that would keep me from mowing. I would call that a success.


----------



## j4c11

So there may something to this surfactant stuff. I got patches of drought stressed grass today along the border with my neighbor's lawn where I skimped on Moisture Manager because hey, it's not my lawn. Got a screwdriver, can't push it in at all. A foot into my lawn, like knife through butter. Hmmmm. May do another bottle.


----------



## Spammage

I'm currently giving hydretain (same as moisture manager) a shot. I've got an area in the back by my trees that always shows stress before the rest of the lawn. First app was about two weeks ago and we've had just enough rain that it makes it difficult to evaluate. However, today it was showing stress at 5 days instead of 3 and a few other areas of the yard were showing same. I will say the jury is still out, but it looks promising.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Spammage, didn't you buy some Tournament Ready? If so, what did you think?


----------



## Spammage

Yep, and never used it. I did turn a quick profit on it though. At the time I decided I was happy with the Turf2Max so it seemed like a no-brainer. I ordered the hydretain to see if it would help around the trees. Drainage hasn't been a problem since using the Turf2Max, but I'm starting to think that the two areas of my yard will benefit from different products.

Edit- Actually, the hydretain seems to really pull the water from the surface well too.


----------



## SGrabs33

Warning... do not spread fertilizer and then apply a soil surfactant over top. Your will end up with burn marks like below:



Explanation from j4c11:
"the surfactant got the dissolving urea sticking to the leaves more instead of beading off and into the ground. Foliar urea is absorbed very quickly (60% in 1 hour) and doesn't take much at all to burn the grass when applied foliarly."


----------



## SGrabs33

A rep from Geoponics(Penterra maker) called me and confirmed the above.

He talked to me for a good 15 minutes or so about the product. He also mentioned another product that they make may be helpful, SoilPlex. He said it is just a high concentration of Humic Acid, which can also be bought many other places, that helps the roots absorb nutrients more effectively. Has anyone used Humic acid before? It looks like it can also be bought on Amazon. I did read a few articles and it does seem to have some good benefits(promote root growth, water retention, decrease turf stress, etc.).

A lot of the conversation went over my head but he was easy to talk to. He actually graduated from NC State and works for Geoponics now in FL.


----------



## SGrabs33

I'd say the Penterra is doing a good job. We have had around 2" of rain over the past two days. I only have limited pooling and am confident after 1 day of sun it would be dry enough to mow.


----------



## Redtenchu

While looking for a soil conditioner with Ammodud, I ran across this USGA article a few times (it's also been linked a couple times in this thread). I was a little concerned after reading this, but may also explain some yellowing in my turf.



USGA said:


> 1. Anionic and Blends with Anionics. Anionic wetting agents are negatively charged surfactants. They can offer fast wetting but, depending upon application rate, *can be phytotoxic to turf*. Because of their negative ionic charge, anionics can cause dispersion of clay particles, which *can negatively impact soil structure in fine-textured native soils*. In the agricultural chemical industry, these compounds are often used to aid in the dispersion of clays in flowable or suspension concentrate formulations. Sometimes referred to as "old chemistries," anionic wetting agents were introduced into the turf care market in the 1950s.
> 
> Commercially available anionic blends include: AquaAid, Naiad, *Penterra*, and Prevade.


A few of us have purchased and used Penterra with good results, but I wanted to make sure everyone was aware of the possible side effects, especially for anyone with a less hardy grass type.


----------



## Ware

That explains why their label repeatedly emphasizes in bold font that:

*"Penterra is a soil penetrant not plant food. It is important to flush Penterra from foliage or leaf surfaces immediately with water."*​
I guess the marketing folks decided *"...not a plant food"* sounds a lot better than phytotoxic. :lol:

Good to know. As with most other products in this business, it works best when you follow the label instructions. :thumbup:


----------



## csbutler

How would one go about mixing the 1oz to 50 gallons? Hose end sprayer?


----------



## Redtenchu

csbutler said:


> How would one go about mixing the 1oz to 50 gallons? Hose end sprayer?


Yes, That would be the best.

-OR- like someone else mentioned above.... Apply with a sprayer while it's pouring rain! :lol:


----------



## g-man

^ sure way to confirm to the neighbors that you are nuts. "Look at him, watering the lawn in the middle of the rain."


----------



## csbutler

g-man said:


> ^ sure way to confirm to the neighbors that you are nuts. "Look at him, watering the lawn in the middle of the rain."


I'm sure they think I am when they see me crawling around pulling weeds and dead poa up. Lol


----------



## ahartzell

Just bought some Penterra. I applied fert about 5 days ago. I should be fine to put this stuff down and water it in correct? It's just not the best idea to do them at the same time...


----------



## Mightyquinn

ahartzell said:


> Just bought some Penterra. I applied fert about 5 days ago. I should be fine to put this stuff down and water it in correct? It's just not the best idea to do them at the same time...


Yes, you are fine to put the Panterra down now. You could have put them down at the exact same time if you wanted to as long as you put the fertilizer down first.


----------



## SGrabs33

Mightyquinn said:


> ahartzell said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just bought some Penterra. I applied fert about 5 days ago. I should be fine to put this stuff down and water it in correct? It's just not the best idea to do them at the same time...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, you are fine to put the Panterra down now. You could have put them down at the exact same time if you wanted to as long as you put the fertilizer down first.
Click to expand...

This is what got me into trouble. The Penterra activated the fast release fertilizer that I had put down. I would NOT put down the fertilizer and then spray the penterra over it the same day unless it is well watered in. I would assume that you could put the Penterra down any time after the fertilizer is watered in.

5 days should be plenty of time.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Isn't the Panterra suppose to be watered in immediately after application?

I had the same issue applying fast release and the dew caused the same issue. Probably should water that in soon after too.


----------



## ahartzell

Mightyquinn said:


> Isn't the Panterra suppose to be watered in immediately after application?
> 
> I had the same issue applying fast release and the dew caused the same issue. Probably should water that in soon after too.


I believe manufacturer says to water in immediately


----------



## SGrabs33

Yes, they say to water it in right after. I did fert, then Penterra, then watered it all in right after and still had the issue with burning.

I would just try staying away from that sequence. Maybe fert-water-penterra-water would work but I'd say it's still to risky myself.


----------



## J_nick

I can definitely say I could see the results of Penterra. I put it down a little over 3 weeks ago before seeding. 4 weeks ago we received about 1/2" of rain in 5-10 minutes and I had a small pond in the front yard. It was still there the next morning when I went to work. Tonight we received 3"+ and with similar if not more standing water in the front yard. I just went out and checked it and there is no standing water present.


----------



## SGrabs33

J_nick said:


> I can definitely say I could see the results of Penterra. I put it down a little over 3 weeks ago before seeding. 4 weeks ago we received about 1/2" of rain in 5-10 minutes and I had a small pond in the front yard. It was still there the next morning when I went to work. Tonight we received 3"+ and with similar if not more standing water in the front yard. I just went out and checked it and there is no standing water present.


Very nice! What rate did you apply?


----------



## J_nick

I was emailing back and forth with a rep since I was going to seed soon after spraying it. He recommended 32oz/acre. I thought it was low but it seems to have worked.


----------



## ahartzell

So the label says 1oz in 5gal per 1k sqft. I don't feel like refilling my backpack sprayer 3 times and going over the lawn 6 times. Is it ok to just play with the math and calculate the amount for total 2.5k sqft and put it in the amount it takes to cover my lawn (1.5gal).

Bottom line: I want to fill my sprayer with 1.5gal and put 2.5oz of penterra in. Spray lawn once and water in.


----------



## Redtenchu

ahartzell said:


> So the label says 1oz in 5gal per 1k sqft. I don't feel like refilling my backpack sprayer 3 times and going over the lawn 6 times. Is it ok to just play with the math and calculate the amount for total 2.5k sqft and put it in the amount it takes to cover my lawn (1.5gal).
> 
> Bottom line: I want to fill my sprayer with 1.5gal and put 2.5oz of penterra in. Spray lawn once and water in.


No, you should take the extra time and effort required to apply the product as directed.


----------



## csbutler

Redtenchu said:


> ahartzell said:
> 
> 
> 
> So the label says 1oz in 5gal per 1k sqft. I don't feel like refilling my backpack sprayer 3 times and going over the lawn 6 times. Is it ok to just play with the math and calculate the amount for total 2.5k sqft and put it in the amount it takes to cover my lawn (1.5gal).
> 
> Bottom line: I want to fill my sprayer with 1.5gal and put 2.5oz of penterra in. Spray lawn once and water in.
> 
> 
> 
> No, you should take the extra time and effort required to apply the product as directed.
Click to expand...

I agree. I didn't necessarily enjoy putting thisdown but I got really good results. Take the extra time. :thumbup:


----------



## ahartzell

what if my backpack sprayer only holds 4gal....so I can't even do the 1oz in 5gal to begin with?


----------



## Ware

ahartzell said:


> what if my backpack sprayer only holds 4gal....so I can't even do the 1oz in 5gal to begin with?


If that's the recommended carrier rate, you could do 0.8oz per 4gal.


----------



## Spammage

An anionic agent like Penterra can be phytotoxic if left to dry on the leaf blades. That is why they suggest so much carrier water for the application. Personally, with things like wetting agents that don't have to be applied with precision, I will usually apply with a hose-end sprayer. This accomplishes the material/carrier water rate and prevents multiple refills and pumping of a sprayer.


----------



## ahartzell

The online pdf instructions are pretty specific on rates per gallons etc. The back of the actual bottle just says 1 tsp per gallon (doesn't specify what type of grass, HOC, etc.). Looks like I could do 4tsp in 4gal (since my sprayer only takes 4gal) and apply 2-3 times (which would come out to around 1oz per 1k sqft

Or get a hose end sprayer and add 2.5oz and cover the entire yard...


----------



## Ware

I agree with Spammage, I think you would be fine with a hose end applicator.


----------



## csbutler

Spammage said:


> An anionic agent like Penterra can be phytotoxic if left to dry on the leaf blades. That is why they suggest so much carrier water for the application. Personally, with things like wetting agents that don't have to be applied with precision, I will usually apply with a hose-end sprayer. This accomplishes the material/carrier water rate and prevents multiple refills and pumping of a sprayer.


I had a cheap ortho hose end sprayer I used to apply and it worked pretty good. I had to play with the settings a little bit but other than that it worked great.


----------



## Spammage

csbutler said:


> Spammage said:
> 
> 
> 
> An anionic agent like Penterra can be phytotoxic if left to dry on the leaf blades. That is why they suggest so much carrier water for the application. Personally, with things like wetting agents that don't have to be applied with precision, I will usually apply with a hose-end sprayer. This accomplishes the material/carrier water rate and prevents multiple refills and pumping of a sprayer.
> 
> 
> 
> I had a cheap ortho hose end sprayer I used to apply and it worked pretty good. I had to play with the settings a little bit but other than that it worked great.
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: Good deal. I would still apply 1/4"-1/2" of water to wash it off the grass and into the soil. (If you didn't already)


----------



## ahartzell

Applied the Penterra this evening. Since I had to split up the application, I sprayed the front yard and ran the irrigation a little while I did side yard. Then went back and forth watering/spraying on opposite sides. After I was done, I irrigated for 5-6min overall. While it is very hot here...the lawn was pretty well dry less than 30min later :shock:

ETA: And Red wasn't joking...you don't need tracker dye with this stuff. You can see exactly where you sprayed it (at least first pass)


----------



## J_nick

If you just wanted to do one tank I'm sure spraying while the irrigation is running would probably be one of the better ways to spray it.

Start the sprinklers, spray that zone then allow the sprinklers to run for 5-10 minutes


----------



## ahartzell

I guess time and rain/irrigation will tell...


----------



## whereismykit

Would Gypsum do the same thing or is it completely different.

I'm looking for something to help break up the hard Georgia clay.


----------



## SGrabs33

Penterra @ 1oz per 1k. Finally was able to get a descent rain to put it down during


----------



## ajmikola

I remember having this conversation on "the other site". I have horrible, and I mean horrible compaction and clay issues. I live in Limestone county, AL, they don't call it that for nothing.
I was told trying to fix a structural problem, i.e. compaction, with a chemical is a waste of time. Chemicals will never be able to break up clay. I can certainly understand that argument. 
Just curious what the mods think about that? I have penterra and it certainly causes the water to absorb a little better, but I have to agree that its not there to fix compaction, it is for localized dry spots.
That said, I really don't know one way or other, that is starting to get into soil chemistry and physics, and I just haven't gotten there yet in my understanding of grass.


----------



## dfw_pilot

A stab in the dark would be to aerate and then top dress with sand. Over time, you'll get more sand into the top few inches of clay.


----------



## Fronta1

ajmikola said:


> I remember having this conversation on "the other site". I have horrible, and I mean horrible compaction and clay issues. I live in Limestone county, AL, they don't call it that for nothing.
> I was told trying to fix a structural problem, i.e. compaction, with a chemical is a waste of time. Chemicals will never be able to break up clay. I can certainly understand that argument.
> Just curious what the mods think about that? I have penterra and it certainly causes the water to absorb a little better, but I have to agree that its not there to fix compaction, it is for localized dry spots.
> That said, I really don't know one way or other, that is starting to get into soil chemistry and physics, and I just haven't gotten there yet in my understanding of grass.


you should try that turf2max stuff that was discussed earlier in the thread


----------



## M311att

Side benefit. Do these products help dog pee from damaging the lawn? Like perhaps allowing it to penetrate the soil to a depth that won't fry my grass?


----------



## Mightyquinn

I just happen to look at Sprinkler Warehouse and saw that they had some Tournament Ready on sale for $171 with FREE shipping, if anyone is interested.

*I posted this in the Hot Deals thread too :thumbup: *


----------



## 2xjtn

For liquids, I use Agral 90 @ 4-8 oz/1000 sq ft. Think its around 190/2.5 gallon.


----------



## Redtenchu

Some good info here. @thegrassfactor


----------



## SGrabs33

Redtenchu said:


> Some good info here. @thegrassfactor


Anyone have the crib notes?


----------



## Mightyquinn

SGrabs33 said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some good info here. @thegrassfactor
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone have the crib notes?
Click to expand...

Basically all the other "liquid aeration" products are Wetting Agents/Soil Sufactants while Air8 is another formulation that has some science behind it that should work better in theory.


----------



## SGrabs33

Mightyquinn said:


> Basically all the other "liquid aeration" products are Wetting Agents/Soil Sufactants while Air8 is another formulation that has some science behind it that should work better in theory.


Thank you Andy


----------



## Fishnugget

I need a wetting agent because I have an area in the back that looks to be kind of dry and I know water just "rolls" down without getting absorbed into the soil.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

FWIW, you guys will be able to see the results of my heavy applications of AIR-8 on my own lawn this year. Granted, these photos were taken before I started doing any gypsum amendments to the soil to help with flocculation, but still, I hadn't done anything to my lot at all. The second photo had standing water up to my calf when I stepped in the swale. It was standing for 2 weeks. Don't judge, I didn't know any better. 

2" of rain in 3 days.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Colonel K0rn said:


> FWIW, you guys will be able to see the results of my heavy applications of AIR-8 on my own lawn this year. Granted, these photos were taken before I started doing any gypsum amendments to the soil to help with flocculation, but still, I hadn't done anything to my lot at all. The second photo had standing water up to my calf when I stepped in the swale. It was standing for 2 weeks. Don't judge, I didn't know any better.
> 
> 2" of rain in 3 days.


CK, it looks like your backyard could use a little bit of leveling. I would think adding some sand to those low spots would help with drainage and maybe help move some of that excess water away from your lawn to maybe the neighbors?


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Mightyquinn said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, you guys will be able to see the results of my heavy applications of AIR-8 on my own lawn this year. Granted, these photos were taken before I started doing any gypsum amendments to the soil to help with flocculation, but still, I hadn't done anything to my lot at all. The second photo had standing water up to my calf when I stepped in the swale. It was standing for 2 weeks. Don't judge, I didn't know any better.
> 
> 2" of rain in 3 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CK, it looks like your backyard could use a little bit of leveling. I would think adding some sand to those low spots would help with drainage and maybe help move some of that excess water away from your lawn to maybe the neighbors?
Click to expand...

It's in the plans, my man. I'm sure when the property was built, there were swales on the right and left sides of the back yard, and along the rear of the property, going toward the south, behind my neighbor's property to a natural wetland area between two adjacent areas. The soil type is "muck" as it's been described, and the water just won't percolate into the "dry sand" layer that's about 18" below the surface. If the AIR-8 doesn't work, drainage will be installed, which is going to be easier than the front. I can stand to have it look ugly for a season, considering I did for a few years.

I have already noticed an improvement in the percolation since last year, and look forward to getting the soil tests in June. We're about to hit the rainy season, so I'll have a better idea then.


----------



## Fishnugget

Colonel K0rn said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, you guys will be able to see the results of my heavy applications of AIR-8 on my own lawn this year. Granted, these photos were taken before I started doing any gypsum amendments to the soil to help with flocculation, but still, I hadn't done anything to my lot at all. The second photo had standing water up to my calf when I stepped in the swale. It was standing for 2 weeks. Don't judge, I didn't know any better.
> 
> 2" of rain in 3 days.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> CK, it looks like your backyard could use a little bit of leveling. I would think adding some sand to those low spots would help with drainage and maybe help move some of that excess water away from your lawn to maybe the neighbors?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's in the plans, my man. I'm sure when the property was built, there were swales on the right and left sides of the back yard, and along the rear of the property, going toward the south, behind my neighbor's property to a natural wetland area between two adjacent areas. The soil type is "muck" as it's been described, and the water just won't percolate into the "dry sand" layer that's about 18" below the surface. If the AIR-8 doesn't work, drainage will be installed, which is going to be easier than the front. I can stand to have it look ugly for a season, considering I did for a few years.
> 
> I have already noticed an improvement in the percolation since last year, and look forward to getting the soil tests in June. We're about to hit the rainy season, so I'll have a better idea then.
Click to expand...

Whoa, you definitely need drains in those areas. Hate to say but you will have to start digging trenches. I need to do my other side yard as well. Its hard to believe any chemical(s) can take care of all that water.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Funny you should say that, but according to the test results I've received, it's due to chemicals, kinda. The high saline content that we have in our ground water, as well as the high water table and the sodium content in the rainfall has created a chemical barrier in the first 12" of soil that doesn't allow the water to percolate into the "dry" sand layer that I have in the soil strata. It's a rather interesting problem that I've got.

FWIW, I have done 2 applications of AIR-8 on the lawn, and we have had a consistent soaking rain today, and I don't have any puddling anywhere in the yard. I haven't checked the rain gauge, but we're heading into the rainy season within the next two weeks. Should this problem persist this year, I'll be doing drains; but like anything else that's installed, it's just something else to repair should it fail. That being said, I'm going to need to do something for my gutters that I plan to install, as well as a way to carry off the waste water from the pool drain. Dragging a hose to an area of the yard I don't mind hosing down with gallons of water is a PITA.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> FWIW, I have done 2 applications of AIR-8 on the lawn, and we have had a consistent soaking rain today, and I don't have any puddling anywhere in the yard.


That sounds like a substantial change to me. I remember last year, when I was hitting my lawn with regular applications of shampoo, kelp, and humic acid, the number of puddles drastically reduced over just a couple of months. I was really surprised and impressed.
Can you remind me: Are you, by chance, comparing the AIR-8 with a homemade brew? I don't remember reading that you are, but I thought I would check


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> FWIW, I have done 2 applications of AIR-8 on the lawn, and we have had a consistent soaking rain today, and I don't have any puddling anywhere in the yard.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds like a substantial change to me. I remember last year, when I was hitting my lawn with regular applications of shampoo, kelp, and humic acid, the number of puddles drastically reduced over just a couple of months. I was really surprised and impressed.
> Can you remind me: Are you, by chance, comparing the AIR-8 with a homemade brew? I don't remember reading that you are, but I thought I would check
Click to expand...

I'm not, just using it as I purchased it. I don't have the inclination to concoct something that would require that many material inputs. I'm sure if I had the time and the space to do it, I would, but I feel it's better left to others who know more about the science than I do. The problems that I see are only the results of something failing further on down the line, and hopefully this remedies it.


----------



## Fishnugget

I just read most of this thread and I too am finding I have some really hard soil compaction areas in my backyard. They are turning into yellow areas because I believe the water is not penetrating. I am interested in using Penterra or something better? What was everyone's experience using the product? Did it help?

I am also thinking of aerating the lawn to help loosen the soil and get rid of some high spots in my backyard.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Fishnugget said:


> I just read most of this thread and I too am finding I have some really hard soil compaction areas in my backyard. They are turning into yellow areas because I believe the water is not penetrating. I am interested in using Penterra or something better? What was everyone's experience using the product? Did it help?
> 
> I am also thinking of aerating the lawn to help loosen the soil and get rid of some high spots in my backyard.


From my research, there are different kinds of Wetting agents that will do different things depending on what you want done. I believe Penterra is designed to pull water down deep so it's more for reducing standing water or soggy conditions after a rain. If you have dry spots or LDS(Localized Dry Spot) you may want to look at something that is designed to hold water in the soil better. Most professional wetting agents are designed to pull water down into the root zone and hold it longer but also giving you a more uniform soaking of the soil too. I believe there is an article in this thread that goes over all of that and breaks down what each wetting agent is designed to accomplish.

Aerating can also help you with water penetration as it creates a channel for water to get down into the root zone.

I'm going to be applying some Tournament Ready here in the next week or two as my lawn is starting to show some signs of repelling water and uneven water distribution.


----------



## Ral1121

I just read through this whole thread. I am interested in using panterra. I feel I have problems with run off and believe I have certain areas of my yard struggling because of this. I also want to try and keep my the water in my soil longer. Would panterra be a good product for me? Or is it used mainly as a drain to get water out of you yard where it is not usable?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ral1121 said:


> I just read through this whole thread. I am interested in using panterra. I feel I have problems with run off and believe I have certain areas of my yard struggling because of this. I also want to try and keep my the water in my soil longer. Would panterra be a good product for me? Or is it used mainly as a drain to get water out of you yard where it is not usable?


Looks like it could be of some use in your situation if you are having a lot of runoff and water is not getting into the soil. A quart isn't too expensive either to experiment with.


----------



## Fishnugget

Mightyquinn said:


> Fishnugget said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just read most of this thread and I too am finding I have some really hard soil compaction areas in my backyard. They are turning into yellow areas because I believe the water is not penetrating. I am interested in using Penterra or something better? What was everyone's experience using the product? Did it help?
> 
> I am also thinking of aerating the lawn to help loosen the soil and get rid of some high spots in my backyard.
> 
> 
> 
> From my research, there are different kinds of Wetting agents that will do different things depending on what you want done. I believe Penterra is designed to pull water down deep so it's more for reducing standing water or soggy conditions after a rain. If you have dry spots or LDS(Localized Dry Spot) you may want to look at something that is designed to hold water in the soil better. Most professional wetting agents are designed to pull water down into the root zone and hold it longer but also giving you a more uniform soaking of the soil too. I believe there is an article in this thread that goes over all of that and breaks down what each wetting agent is designed to accomplish.
> 
> Aerating can also help you with water penetration as it creates a channel for water to get down into the root zone.
> 
> I'm going to be applying some Tournament Ready here in the next week or two as my lawn is starting to show some signs of repelling water and uneven water distribution.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the pointers MQ. I actually do plan to aerate in the coming weeks. Post your results on Tournament Ready, I will have to research that product as well.


----------



## probasestealer

Interesting thread, I've always just used BLSC, but am very interested in the Penterra.

The application in a backpack sprayer with 5 gallons of water per 1k sqft seems time consuming as I would need to refill 5-6 times. Given that it's not a herbicide (PGR, etc) I feel a hose-end application would suffice as long as I water in. I think I'll actually apply it while raining.

But has anyone applied it via hose-end? Did you mix the Panterra with water prior to application and what kind of setting did you use? I can (probably) figure out the math.

Thanks.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I think almost any wetting agent could be applied with a hose end sprayer as long as you are getting the prescribed amount over the given area. Accuracy isn't as crucial.


----------



## probasestealer

My thought was to mix 1oz of Penterra with 4 oz of water (5oz in the bottle) and set the hose-end to 1oz/gallon to cover 1000 square feet and apply before or during rain.

Does this sound right? I might add humic acid to the mix also.

Thanks @Mightyquinn


----------



## ABC123

Very interesting about using Panterra to reduce dew and frost.

https://youtu.be/q3mEIjfAkR8


----------



## SCGrassMan

Is anybody interested in maybe splitting a bottle of Tournament Ready? At 3k square feet I feel like 80+ applications worth might be a bit much for me


----------



## Mightyquinn

2.5 gallons would last you about 4 years from my calculations. Might want to start a thread in the equipment exchange forum.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Mightyquinn said:


> 2.5 gallons would last you about 4 years from my calculations. Might want to start a thread in the equipment exchange forum.


Haven't had much luck there to be honest... but I thought maybe here after reading through some other people might be turned off by the price.

Have you used any of these with success?


----------



## Mightyquinn

I just applied my first app of TR a week or so ago, so time will tell.


----------



## SCGrassMan

Mightyquinn said:


> I just applied my first app of TR a week or so ago, so time will tell.


Where did you buy it? I'm having trouble locating a retailer.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I bought mine from Sprinklerwarehouse as they use to put it on sale occasionally but they no longer carry it. I got 2.5 gallons on a close out price for $133. I would see what is around you locally as you might save some money without having to pay shipping.


----------



## SCGrassMan

@Topcat if I can find some wetting agent like Pantera or Tournament Ready are you interested in splitting a bottle?


----------



## TC2

SCGrassMan said:


> @Topcat if I can find some wetting agent like Pantera or Tournament Ready are you interested in splitting a bottle?


The pricing structure for Penterra is a little strange. You can either buy 32 oz or 5 gallons, but 32oz is $22 which should be good for a few applications.

Edit: and shipping is over half the cost *sigh*


----------



## Topcat

SCGrassMan said:


> @Topcat if I can find some wetting agent like Pantera or Tournament Ready are you interested in splitting a bottle?


Absolutely. I thought about buying some, but balked because I did not want to spend the money on what would be an experiment for me. My backyard is pretty hard clay, and that is where I'd need it most, and I am not sure it can help hard packed clay much. The builder apparently put down topsoil in the front the soil types are night and day and I have no issues with run off or pooling in the front yard.

Send me a PM with costs, and we can make it happen


----------



## SCGrassMan

TC2 said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Topcat if I can find some wetting agent like Pantera or Tournament Ready are you interested in splitting a bottle?
> 
> 
> 
> The pricing structure for Penterra is a little strange. You can either buy 32 oz or 5 gallons, but 32oz is $22 which should be good for a few applications.
> 
> Edit: and shipping is over half the cost *sigh*
Click to expand...

I think that the Tournament Ready is the "kind" that we need, I think Panterra is the holding water stuff. I could be wrong. Where did you see it for sale?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Panterra is suppose to pull water down into the soil so I think that is what you are looking for.


----------



## TC2

SCGrassMan said:


> I think that the Tournament Ready is the "kind" that we need, I think Panterra is the holding water stuff. I could be wrong. Where did you see it for sale?


Penterra claims to do both, probably by moderating water penetration and percolation, evening out the extremes. Panterra is available here http://www.geoponicscorp.com/shop/wetting-agents/6-penterra


----------



## SCGrassMan

ugh. I'll see if I can find either locally and then decide from there


----------



## adgattoni

SCGrassMan said:


> ugh. I'll see if I can find either locally and then decide from there


If you're still interested in the tournament ready, I ended up getting an Underhill pellet gun on Amazon for about $80, then I ordered a couple of Tournament Ready pellets +Actosol (humic acid) from R&R. Jury's still out on whether it's working, but the whole setup is cheaper than a jug of Tournament Ready, and going forward I just have to order the pellets. Plus it's got humic in it, so maybe this can replace the humic powders or GCF products?


----------



## SCGrassMan

What's the benefit of pellets?


----------



## Greendoc

adgattoni said:


> SCGrassMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> ugh. I'll see if I can find either locally and then decide from there
> 
> 
> 
> If you're still interested in the tournament ready, I ended up getting an Underhill pellet gun on Amazon for about $80, then I ordered a couple of Tournament Ready pellets +Actosol (humic acid) from R&R. Jury's still out on whether it's working, but the whole setup is cheaper than a jug of Tournament Ready, and going forward I just have to order the pellets. Plus it's got humic in it, so maybe this can replace the humic powders or GCF products?
Click to expand...

I use Tournament Ready pellets for wetting down areas that are water repellent. There is not very much Humic in those pellets. It will not replace the Humic applications. However, for me, it is less expensive to ship pellets rather than gallons of liquid. Likewise for the Humic. I buy dry soluble and mix into water myself.


----------



## Ral1121

Has anyone tried th lesco product moisture manager. Has some big claims, just wonder if anyone has direct experience with using it.


----------



## adgattoni

SCGrassMan said:


> What's the benefit of pellets?


Same stuff that's in the jugs, but $10 each and one pellet will last me basically all season.


----------



## adgattoni

Mightyquinn said:


> I've also heard that the BEST time to apply a wetting agent is while it's raining so that nature does all the hard work. I don't know how many people would be willing to do that but if there were some, this would be the place to find them


So I did this today (tournament ready + actosol pellets). Several neighbors saw me as they were leaving their homes. When I came inside, my wife actually asked me why I was watering the lawn IN THE RAIN.


----------



## j4c11

Ral1121 said:


> Has anyone tried th lesco product moisture manager. Has some big claims, just wonder if anyone has direct experience with using it.


I used a few bottles last year and in conjunction with PGR it helped significantly increase drought tolerance and reduce the amount of water needed during summer. The turf just seemed to go longer before showing drought stress. I'm using it again this year.


----------



## Ral1121

j4c11 said:


> Ral1121 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried th lesco product moisture manager. Has some big claims, just wonder if anyone has direct experience with using it.
> 
> 
> 
> I used a few bottles last year and in conjunction with PGR it helped significantly increase drought tolerance and reduce the amount of water needed during summer. The turf just seemed to go longer before showing drought stress. I'm using it again this year.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'm going to have to pick some up and try it out.


----------



## Kalous86

Soil surfactants work wonders we sell them for agricultural applications and I always get a little down to my dads place and honestly dollar for dollar these are the best products you can use in my opinion


----------



## Spammage

Kalous86 said:


> Soil surfactants work wonders we sell them for agricultural applications and I always get a little down to my dads place and honestly dollar for dollar these are the best products you can use in my opinion


Who is "we", and is there a possibility of any cost savings here with a group buy??


----------



## Kalous86

I work for wilbur-Ellis I'd have to ask what I can do but there can probably be something worked out &#128077;&#127995;


----------



## 2xjtn

Agral 90 is a good one. Agricultural grade so it's a good value. Typically use at 2oz/1000 if I'm soil drenching with Calcium or other liquid soil amendments.
Cheers!


----------



## TLFU

Has anyone used http://www.precisionlab.com/turf-and-ornamentals/products/soil-surfactants/cascade-plus-hydration-and-infiltration?


----------



## Ware

TLFU said:


> Has anyone used http://www.precisionlab.com/turf-and-ornamentals/products/soil-surfactants/cascade-plus-hydration-and-infiltration?


No, but I've watched their video more than a few times...


----------



## Ammodud2311

So I am having some trouble with my grass absorbing water in only one section of my yard it is very compact and i have tried aeration and watering frequently and no results. I am currently trying Penterra I have done one application so far and I got lucky and got about 2 days of ran last weekend. I have read about a fert called Spez from Ekroat that says it is specialty made for clay and hard soils. I was seeing if anyone has used this or know more info on. Or any other advice.. yard is deffiently looking better than after first application. Thanks


----------



## Grass Clippins

I have a question about adding surfactants to fungicides. I'm looking at the GCI Fungicide Program for Strobe and Propiconazole. They (GCI) are stating that in order to use the low application rates you MUST add a surfactant. The problem is that the Strobe instructions specifically say not to use a surfactant. The "low rates" also happen to be only rate recommended on the instructions for Strobe. To his knowledge, the only two surfactants that work are GCI Natural Adjuvant ($35/pint) and Sync Activator Adjuvant ($29.95/pint). The label for Sync states that it's a Polyoxyethylene sorbitan fatty acid ester...I googled that and I think that it's a Polysorbate? I found a gallon of Polysorbate 80 for $29.95 a gallon ($3.74 /pint). https://www.saveoncitric.com/po80ga.html?cmp=googleproducts&kw=po80ga&gclid=Cj0KCQiA28nfBRCDARIsANc5BFD1mhD3OX6oMacSc9QxPnYMQQbBTCIsuRaEQVrnXHmnD62unWNxR_saApxyEALw_wcB

1. Do you really need a surfactant to "activate" a fungicide?
2. If so, would Polysorbate work?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

May be a stupid question, would Penterra able to be applied by a back pack sprayer/spreader mate or would it have to be done via hose end sprayer?


----------



## g-man

Brian:

If the label doesn't call for it, I don't add it. Further the strobe label says not to add surfactant. Strobe (azoxy) will be absorbed thru the leaf and the soil, so I don't see how it helps. I'm not sure why someone will recommend the use of a surfacant.

Also, there is a cheaper option for liquid azoxy, but not labeled for turf.


----------



## adgattoni

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> May be a stupid question, would Penterra able to be applied by a back pack sprayer/spreader mate or would it have to be done via hose end sprayer?


You can but you'll be refilling a lot. Label rates are 1 oz per 5 gallons carrier per 1ksqft, and I don't think it is recommended to try to spray it with less carrier. That is why I've been contemplating getting a Blue Mule Hose End Sprayer.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I'm sure you could spray the Panterra with a back pack sprayer or push sprayer just be sure to water it in really well immediately after applying. I also wouldn't recommend doing it in the heat either. Early morning or late evening would be best.


----------



## Grass Clippins

g-man said:


> Brian:
> 
> If the label doesn't call for it, I don't add it. Further the strobe label says not to add surfactant. Strobe (azoxy) will be absorbed thru the leaf and the soil, so I don't see how it helps. I'm not sure why someone will recommend the use of a surfacant.
> 
> Also, there is a cheaper option for liquid azoxy, but not labeled for turf.


Thanks @g-man . That's what I figured, it's probably just someone trying to sell their own product. It takes a little research to separate the sales pitch from the information in those videos. I'll stick with Penterra at $10.83/pint but will not mix it will the fungicides.


----------



## craigdt

j4c11 said:


> Ral1121 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone tried th lesco product moisture manager. Has some big claims, just wonder if anyone has direct experience with using it.
> 
> 
> 
> I used a few bottles last year and in conjunction with PGR it helped significantly increase drought tolerance and reduce the amount of water needed during summer. The turf just seemed to go longer before showing drought stress. I'm using it again this year.
Click to expand...

Someone with more knowledge than me needs to try to break this down and see if its pretty similar to the Soil Conditioner and Kelp Help that a lot of us are mixing up for pennies on the dollar.

The label looks almost exactly like the Hydretain product someone mentioned elsewhere.

Wouldn't surprise me if Hydretain supplied this for Lesco, or the other way around.

Labels are very very similar:
Lesco:
https://www.siteone.com/pdf/sdsPDF?resourceId=6786
Hydretain:
https://www.hydretain.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/HydESP_2.5GalLab_US_C_LRWEB_R20171129.pdf

At 9oz/1,000 sq ft, that would get used up pretty quick. 
I have 10,000 sq ft, one gallon would only get me not even 2 full applications. eek

I'd love for someone to be a guinea pig and give it a try :lol:

Edit- Looks like pricing is as follow:

Lesco Moisture Manager 1 gallon- $74.82
https://www.siteone.com/p/13263

Hydretain ES Plus II 1 gallon- $79.19
https://www.amazon.com/Hydretain-ES...UTF8&qid=1544394464&sr=8-3&keywords=hydretain


----------



## iFisch3224

Craig, I'll be happy to test either products out for you. I'll PM you my address so you can send the product. &#128513;&#128514;


----------



## craigdt

iFisch3224 said:


> Craig, I'll be happy to test either products out for you. I'll PM you my address so you can send the product. 😁😂


 :mrgreen: 
Your lawn looks good enough already! 
But even with 4k sq ft, I'd still need to send you 36 ounces...

Maybe if I get some in 2019, you can buy some of my Propiconazole and I'll make you a deal :lol:


----------



## iFisch3224

craigdt said:


> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Craig, I'll be happy to test either products out for you. I'll PM you my address so you can send the product. 😁😂
> 
> 
> 
> :mrgreen:
> Your lawn looks good enough already!
> But even with 4k sq ft, I'd still need to send you 36 ounces...
> 
> Maybe if I get some in 2019, you can buy some of my Propiconazole and I'll make you a deal :lol:
Click to expand...

Thank you - it's getting there, slowly. Next year will hopefully be a better year - lots of lessons learned this year.

Done! :thumbup: :nod:


----------



## Spammage

craigdt said:


> Wouldn't surprise me if Hydretain supplied this for Lesco, or the other way around.


It is the same product. I've tried it, but wasn't impressed.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I've used the Lesco Moisture Manager before and I have to say it was a mixed bag of results. You can definitely get it cheaper than the price on the website. I think I paid like $120 for 2.5 gallons of it and it is basically the same thing as the Hydratain and may even be exactly the same thing but in a different package. If you are going for the whole organic thing with your lawn and/or using the NeXT products exclusively it might fit right in with those products as it uses "older" wetting agent chemistry with the addition of humic acid to help draw water out of the air/soil. I have found Tournament Ready to be a much better wetting agent for my situation.


----------



## Grass Clippins

Ran across a pretty slick USGA article on Wetting Agent Chemistry and wasn't sure if anyone had posted it before. Nice little read that doesn't feel overly academic.

http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/zontek-understanding-7-20-12.pdf


----------



## Mightyquinn

Grass Clippins said:


> Ran across a pretty slick USGA article on Wetting Agent Chemistry and wasn't sure if anyone had posted it before. Nice little read that doesn't feel overly academic.
> 
> http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/zontek-understanding-7-20-12.pdf


I believe it has been posted a few times in this thread already but it is a very good read and great information so no harm in bringing it up again :thumbup:


----------



## Grass Clippins

@Mightyquinn Ha! I just reread the thread and noticed it twice. Must be good to be mentioned three times.


----------



## adgattoni

Grass Clippins said:


> @Mightyquinn Ha! I just reread the thread and noticed it twice. Must be good to be mentioned three times.


These things seem to be somewhat mysterious, and IMO that article best lays out the different types of chemistry used. It's difficult to get a good description on what most of them do IMO. I.e., which ones are "movers" versus "holders."

I have personally had success with tournament ready pellets. I recently had to order some stuff from R&R so I picked up some H2O Maximizer pellets to try next season. The Pellet Pro is a bit expensive up front, but the pellets are less painful purchases than the liquid stuff (haven't calculated cost per 1k though). I'm thinking about getting some Penterra (penetrant) to use on my swales, and continuing to use this stuff everywhere else (water holding). Once I install irrigation, I plan on looking into putting the PelletPro in-line to use the pellets in a fertigation-style fashion.


----------



## Brackin4au

After reading through this entire thread, I noticed some confusion on the carrier rates. I looked at the application rates on the Penterra label, and I'm starting to wonder if the 50gal water carrier rate for 4oz Penterra might be a typo.

For home use, 4oz with 50gal water per 1k, then 1oz per 1k for follow ups (doesn't mention carrier amount for follow up applications).

Looking at the application rate for fairways, it suggests 64oz to 80gal water per acre (43560sqft), which works out to 4oz with 5gal in 2722sqft. Then says if applying to small area just use 1oz with 5gal per 1k.

Greens and tees are 1oz in 5gal per 1k.

I'm wondering if the 50gal carrier in home use is either just a typo, or a situation where they are "fool proofing" it for the average homeowner use. Any thoughts?


----------



## kur1j

So the tournament ready liquid stuff seems to be pretty damn pricey (~250) for 2.5 gallons. I see the pellets were recommended here but it isn't clear on how much coverage they provide. For example, https://www.rrproducts.com/Tournament~Ready-Plus-w%5E~Actosol-Pellet~-8-oz-~-Ea---product47966?k=Pellets That says to spray 4-6 minutes per 1k/sqft. But it doesn't say how much each one of the pellets will cover.

Which brings up the other question, how do you apply it? Do you have to use one of their guns (e.g. https://www.amazon.com/Underhill-PPWA50K-PelletPro-Wetting-Applicator/dp/B00G20OKY4/ref=sr_1_fkmrnull_1?keywords=Underhill+pellet&qid=1551331545&s=gateway&sr=8-1-fkmrnull)? Or can you just mix the pellet into some water, break it down and put it into a hose end sprayer like this? https://www.amazon.com/Ortho-Spray-Multi-Use-Hose-End-Sprayer/dp/B0071D0EZK/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=hose+end+sprayer&qid=1551332146&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1

Or did I completely miss it in reading the material?


----------



## Reel Low Dad

@kur1j I also have the Pellet pro and used TR last year with good results. One of UnderHill's other pellets states about 15k sq feet per pellet. I used that as a baseline. So this year I am going to use the pellet pro again, but I want to try mixing a pellet up and using it in my sprayer. I am still trying to figure out rates. I will probably just quarter or thirds it and go from there


----------



## kur1j

Reel Low Dad said:


> @kur1j I also have the Pellet pro and used TR last year with good results. One of UnderHill's other pellets states about 15k sq feet per pellet. I used that as a baseline. So this year I am going to use the pellet pro again, but I want to try mixing a pellet up and using it in my sprayer. I am still trying to figure out rates. I will probably just quarter or thirds it and go from there


Oh wow 15k sqft per pellet? That's an insanely better price per app than the liquid. Even buying the pellet gun and some pellets would be substantially less than the 2.5g of the liquid.

So do you think this would work in a hose attachment sprayer or is the pellet sprayer mandatory?


----------



## adgattoni

kur1j said:


> Reel Low Dad said:
> 
> 
> 
> @kur1j I also have the Pellet pro and used TR last year with good results. One of UnderHill's other pellets states about 15k sq feet per pellet. I used that as a baseline. So this year I am going to use the pellet pro again, but I want to try mixing a pellet up and using it in my sprayer. I am still trying to figure out rates. I will probably just quarter or thirds it and go from there
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow 15k sqft per pellet? That's an insanely better price per app than the liquid. Even buying the pellet gun and some pellets would be substantially less than the 2.5g of the liquid.
> 
> So do you think this would work in a hose attachment sprayer or is the pellet sprayer mandatory?
Click to expand...

I have the pellet pro and I would recommend getting it. The pellets are very thick/concentrated. I think it would be difficult to melt down (though I think there are folks here who have done it). This year I plan to use Tournament Ready pellets for LDS (spot applications), and Penterra for my swales/poor draining areas.


----------



## kur1j

@adgattoni

Ah, fair enough. Thanks I'll just get one of the guns. I assume you can cut them up? I've only got 6ksqft to cover so if the statement of it covering 15k, i wouldn't need all of a pellet.

Sorry I thought tournament ready and penterra basically did the same thing but TR was a newer design that was "better" in general? I could be completely misunderstanding though.


----------



## adgattoni

kur1j said:


> @adgattoni
> 
> Ah, fair enough. Thanks I'll just get one of the guns. I assume you can cut them up? I've only got 6ksqft to cover so if the statement of it covering 15k, i wouldn't need all of a pellet.
> 
> Sorry I thought tournament ready and penterra basically did the same thing but TR was a newer design that was "better" in general? I could be completely misunderstanding though.


Yeah the pellets come with screw on caps, so I just pour out the excess liquid (it's a "bar of soap" consistency I'd say - doesn't fully break down even during use) in a discreet area (wouldn't pour a concentrated amount right into the lawn) and put the cap back on.


----------



## Mightyquinn

I have been using H2O Maximizer Pellets in my EZFLO and the only easy way of removing the pellet from it's container is to place it in a bowl/cup of boiling water for a few minutes which liquifies the outer part of the pellet and then it slides out of the jar. I will melt one whole pellet into 1 gallon of water and then add that to the EZFLO. You definitely want to use hot water if you are going to melt them down.

I plan on switching over to the Tournament Ready Pellets/Pellet Pro Gun once I run out of the TR liquid that I already have on hand.


----------



## kur1j

I've been reading up on Tournament Ready and Penterra but I'm still confused/unsure of what symptoms/issues each are directed at solving (or better at solving).

The issue i'm having is where the lawn was graded and leads to the drainage ditch, it stays really saturated. Was going to give this a shot before having to create a french drain.


----------



## Mightyquinn

My understanding is that Penterra is used to move water away from an area like you are wanting to do while TR is more for keeping water in an area that you may have LDS(Localized Dry Spot) or hydrophobic soil.


----------



## g-man

It is an hour long, but a very good reseaech summary of wetting agents.

https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/water-movement-in-soils-and-soil-surfactants-no-bs-here-r199/

Im sourcing this one locally:

https://www.domyown.com/soaker-plus-p-14191.html









This image was in the webinar. It is a golf course in NL that had only half the side treated with Aquatrols soil surfactant(revolution) in a no irrigation strategy. (their blog post).


----------



## craigdt

Penterra and Soaker Plus both look like very interesting products.

But Penterra is much cheaper... 

I think I'll give Penterra a try.

Edit- still trying to determine if this would replace the Kelp Help mix and Soil Conditioner many of us are making use of.
Or in addition to...?


----------



## Mightyquinn

craigdt said:


> Penterra and Soaker Plus both look like very interesting products.
> 
> But Penterra is much cheaper...
> 
> I think I'll give Penterra a try.
> 
> Edit- still trying to determine if this would replace the Kelp Help mix and Soil Conditioner many of us are making use of.
> Or in addition to...?


I think the Soil Conditioner is just basically putting soap on your lawn and you won't get the long term residual effects that a more advanced chemistry from a wetting agent can provide. Don't get me wrong, I have seen where the Soil Conditioner can help in some soils but it doesn't have the staying power of a wetting agent.

Just FYI, the Tournament Ready liquid that I have is VERY sticky and doesn't wash off really easily which is how I can see it sticking to the soil particles much better.


----------



## adgattoni

craigdt said:


> Penterra and Soaker Plus both look like very interesting products.
> 
> But Penterra is much cheaper...
> 
> I think I'll give Penterra a try.
> 
> Edit- still trying to determine if this would replace the Kelp Help mix and Soil Conditioner many of us are making use of.
> Or in addition to...?


Most soil conditioners marketed to DIYers are just Sodium Lauryl Sulfate (detergent). SLS is a "wetting agent" in that it does break the surface tension of water (as all detergents do), but the wetting agents in this thread are purpose-built for soil/turf.


----------



## Jayray

How does this stuff compare?

https://www.amleo.com/hydretain-granular-oc-15-pounds/p/HGOC15/


----------



## g-man

@Jayray The problem with a lot of these product is the lack of real unbiased technical information. They provide a lot of marketing words that's hard to know if it works. The ingredients are also withheld as trade secrets. Therefore you can't compare them.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Jayray said:


> How does this stuff compare?
> 
> https://www.amleo.com/hydretain-granular-oc-15-pounds/p/HGOC15/


You can get Lesco Moisture Manager at SiteOne which is basically the same thing in liquid form.


----------



## craigdt

Well I just got my shipment of Penterra today.
4 little 32oz jugs should be about a season's worth of applications.

If it does even 25% of what it claims, I'll be a happy camper.


----------



## SGrabs33

craigdt said:


> Well I just got my shipment of Penterra today.
> 4 little 32oz jugs should be about a season's worth of applications.
> 
> If it does even 25% of what it claims, I'll be a happy camper.


It worked pretty well for me!


----------



## Pemt13

@SGrabs33 what rate and application method did you use to get your results?


----------



## SGrabs33

Pemt13 said:


> SGrabs33 what rate and application method did you use to get your results?


There wasn't too much of a method to my madness. The applications rates are pretty wide ranging. I have a 2k area that I mainly focused on in my yard and split the 32oz bottle into 4ish apps. I've got the 10 gallon Chapin walk behind sprayer that I used. Make sure to use plenty of water and I always made sure to spray right before or even during a rain event.


----------



## Jacob_S

I have also seen what I consider good results from penterra, much like @SGrabs33 there hasn't been much method on my end, I usually put 4 to 6 oz in my hose end sprayer and set the dial to 1oz and spray all willy nilly in my problem areas. The ground in these areas still stays quite moist longer than the rest of the yard but standing water is gone much faster than if not treated. My GF even pointed out along one of my fence lines that it must be working cause on my side no water, look under the fence on the other side water. I actually mixed in a couple oz with air8 and RGS the other day just for the heck of it.


----------



## daniel3507

@Jacob_S Do you have issues with it in your hose end sprayer? It seems to foam up in my hose end sprayer so I'm not sure how much is actually getting put down.


----------



## craigdt

daniel3507 said:


> @Jacob_S Do you have issues with it in your hose end sprayer? It seems to foam up in my hose end sprayer so I'm not sure how much is actually getting put down.


In that same vein, I suppose I should ask if applying it with a tow-behind spray with an agitator will be okay.

I intend on using some large droplet TeeJet nozzles. Is this a case that you have to make sure you apply with plenty of water, then go ahead and water it in?


----------



## Jacob_S

daniel3507 said:


> @Jacob_S Do you have issues with it in your hose end sprayer? It seems to foam up in my hose end sprayer so I'm not sure how much is actually getting put down.


I do not, I just put it in the sprayer jug(straight I don't top off with water) screw the jug on set the dial to 1oz and pull the trigger. Only thing I get is a few bubbles as it sprays, mu daughters love it cause they then get to chase them.


----------



## smurg

kur1j said:


> Reel Low Dad said:
> 
> 
> 
> @kur1j I also have the Pellet pro and used TR last year with good results. One of UnderHill's other pellets states about 15k sq feet per pellet. I used that as a baseline. So this year I am going to use the pellet pro again, but I want to try mixing a pellet up and using it in my sprayer. I am still trying to figure out rates. I will probably just quarter or thirds it and go from there
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow 15k sqft per pellet? That's an insanely better price per app than the liquid. Even buying the pellet gun and some pellets would be substantially less than the 2.5g of the liquid.
> 
> So do you think this would work in a hose attachment sprayer or is the pellet sprayer mandatory?
Click to expand...

What I don't understand is why they dose the liquid at 5x the rate of the pellets. They state (after the initial application of 8 fl oz per 1k sq ft) that you should apply 4 fl oz per 1k sq ft monthly. The liquid is 100% active ingredient. That would be 4 fl oz of AI per 1k sq ft month.

https://www.underhill.us/component/jdownloads/send/102-specimen-labels/1361-sl-tr-liquid-012815?option=com_jdownloads

The pellets say that a 6 oz (are these solid or liquid) pellet is good for 16,000 sq ft (per RR not the label; can anyone confirm?). The pellets are only 50% AI per the label. This is 0.1875 fl oz per 1k sq ft "weekly or as needed".

https://www.underhill.us/library/send/102-specimen-labels/865-sl-tr-pellets-02@kur1j

The pellets seem to be 5.7x the price of the liquid for equal amounts of AI. Then the gun is a $80 adder.


----------



## kur1j

@smurg

That's a good point. Didn't think of that. I actually just ended up getting the pellets and the gun. Regardless it's easier for me to swallow buying a couple of these pellets at ~$30-$40 compared to 200$+ for the liquid. I know it's actually cheaper but easier to swollow.


----------



## seiyafan

Does anyone have experience with Scotts Everydrop?


----------



## Spammage

seiyafan said:


> Does anyone have experience with Scotts Everydrop?


I didn't notice any improvement with it. Silty calcareous clay here. I preface that because it might be great for other soils.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Agian lots of good information here. Y'all get after it. I'm very interested in this kind of stuff. It is also something the PeneGator product could help with. I just started using this stuff to help restructure my soil that is hard and clay. Hopefully it will make a big difference.

I will check back and see how things are going with y'all on your trouble areas.


----------



## modrakv

Hey everyone -- my first post. I've lurked for awhile and have read this entire thread twice.

I just received a bottle of Penterra. I have a 2000 sq ft area in my back yard that is at the bottom of a 7 foot hill that descends down toward me from the neighbor directly behind me. This area is always soggy in the Spring and any time in the Summer/Fall when we get a good downpour. There is standing water/ puddles. The soil is clay. Its always squishy underfoot. The water issue gives me difficulty when trying to mow the lawn. Multiple times per year I need to let that area grow until it dries out enough to mow. This might be weeks at a time. And then when I can get to it the grass is 8+ inches tall; which requires bagging and multiple passes to knock back down to my desired HOC (this means height of cut, right?). I used to keep my HOC around 3.5. It was gorgeous. Then last year my daughters became old enough to use their PowerWheel in the yard and my lawn got trampled down. To the point where it required raking/ fluffing for the mower to effectively cut it. So now my HOC is 2.5.

tl;dr: Need help applying Penterra. HOC is 2.5. Back 2000 sq ft butts up against a 7 foot slope that descends into my yard from the neighbor directly behind me. I have a hose end sprayer. I'm all about "if some is good then more is better". Just looking for a little advice / assurance on how to spray it down (what worked for you), and how often can I reapply this?

If it works well I have no problem doing this often and buying more Penterra.

Thanks -- Vincent


----------



## g-man

Can you build a trench/drain to get the water out of there? Penterra will not fix that problem. It helps to distribute the water uniformly within the soil. Post a picture in the landscape section and we might be able to provide a more permanent fix.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Any of y'all want to try out PeneGator? It should improve overall soil structure. The only question will be how much is needed. It works with the clay in the soil. The more clay the more material it takes to flocculate.


----------



## Grass Clippins

@ErosionWizard are you offering this PeneGator for free......? If so, yes I would love to try it.


----------



## Spammage

ErosionWizard said:


> Any of y'all want to try out PeneGator? It should improve overall soil structure. The only question will be how much is needed. It works with the clay in the soil. The more clay the more material it takes to flocculate.


I would be willing to take a shot at it.


----------



## ErosionWizard

@Spammage @Grass Clippins How big is your yard? I can send you a couple 32oz bottles. Should be good to cover most lawns. In the farm fields they use 2 gallons per acre. So you can cover around 1/4 acre with 2 bottles. I would just spray down 32oz. Than follow behind that with sprinklers to help water it in. Than a few days later you can apply the second bottle and water that in also.

Can you give me a zip code to check on shipping? Thank you.


----------



## Spammage

@ErosionWizard zip is 75089 - and the "kept" part of the lawn is 6000sf.


----------



## Grass Clippins

@ErosionWizard my zip code is 30064 and the sq ft is 18,000 but I'll be happy with whatever you have to offer. Thank you!


----------



## Tmank87

@ErosionWizard

If it's free, it's me. I'm in 28211!

Happy to provide photos, comparisons etc.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Sweet. 3 different states other than California. They know it works here up and down the state. The question is to see if it works in other places. The short anwser is yes. It will help all soil that has clay. The amount of clay will affect the amount of material needed for good results.

I will take care of the PeneGator and the shipping. What I need in return is just a small amount of soil and your feedback on the material. 
It would be very nice to see how this stuff compares to the other things some of y'all have or are trying. This product is still only used in the AG industry for now. We are going to be the first test in the DiY side. 
Thank all y'all for the interest in PeneGator.


----------



## smurg

Ordered 3x 32oz jugs of Penterra, good for ~2 years. Will see how it goes this season.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Hey guys. I spoke to soon and now have to apologize. I should be getting new material in the next few days. At that point I can try to share with y'all and get these test going 
sorry for the little delay.


----------



## craigdt

I just applied the 4oz/1K sq feet initial application of Panterra over the weekend.

weird stuff. Felt like liquid soap, but smelled different.

Made the lawn super slippery until I got it all watered in.

We shall see!


----------



## superkaz661

So Im a newbie on this forum, but Ive been around on other sites for a while. Silly question, but after having read the surfactant article posted, which covers the available chemistries in the market, has anyone ever tried applying something like a standard NIS (like Alligare 90) that a lot of us buy by the gallon? Sure the article refers to is as old chemistry, but its the same case for Penterra.

Maybe I just volunteered myself for something...


----------



## craigdt

Some follow-up:
Disclaimer: I have no idea if the 2 events are correlated. Just wanted share my findings.

4 days after applying Panterra, my grass looked like this:









Look at all the tiny discolored speckles!

I applied the 4oz/1K sq ft, then immediately ran the sprinklers for a long time- really got it watered in.

Only thing I can think of is it said to apply "4oz per 50 gallons of water per 1,000 sq ft."

Well, I don't have a 50 gallon sprayer. So I ended up applying 14 ounces in 21 gallons of water, then immediately just dumped a ton of water on the whole area.

Maybe its a disease?
I had previously started my preventive fungicide program, and there was no such markings before the Panterra application.

I'll cut it soon and see what happens.


----------



## smurg

craigdt said:


> Some follow-up:
> Disclaimer: I have no idea if the 2 events are correlated. Just wanted share my findings.
> 
> 4 days after applying Panterra, my grass looked like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at all the tiny discolored speckles!
> 
> I applied the 4oz/1K sq ft, then immediately ran the sprinklers for a long time- really got it watered in.
> 
> Only thing I can think of is it said to apply "4oz per 50 gallons of water per 1,000 sq ft."
> 
> Well, I don't have a 50 gallon sprayer. So I ended up applying 14 ounces in 21 gallons of water, then immediately just dumped a ton of water on the whole area.
> 
> Maybe its a disease?
> I had previously started my preventive fungicide program, and there was no such markings before the Panterra application.
> 
> I'll cut it soon and see what happens.


That's what I planned on doing myself; applying a few ounces at a time in my 4 gallon sprayer and then irrigate.

Looking at your picture, I'd say your mower blade is in need of a sharpening. The blades have ragged edges like they're torn instead of cut and even one blade is folded in half where it didn't get complete cut. That is the root of your problem imo.


----------



## craigdt

smurg said:


> craigdt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some follow-up:
> Disclaimer: I have no idea if the 2 events are correlated. Just wanted share my findings.
> 
> 4 days after applying Panterra, my grass looked like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Look at all the tiny discolored speckles!
> 
> I applied the 4oz/1K sq ft, then immediately ran the sprinklers for a long time- really got it watered in.
> 
> Only thing I can think of is it said to apply "4oz per 50 gallons of water per 1,000 sq ft."
> 
> Well, I don't have a 50 gallon sprayer. So I ended up applying 14 ounces in 21 gallons of water, then immediately just dumped a ton of water on the whole area.
> 
> Maybe its a disease?
> I had previously started my preventive fungicide program, and there was no such markings before the Panterra application.
> 
> I'll cut it soon and see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I planned on doing myself; applying a few ounces at a time in my 4 gallon sprayer and then irrigate.
> 
> Looking at your picture, I'd say your mower blade is in need of a sharpening. The blades have ragged edges like they're torn instead of cut and even one blade is folded in half where it didn't get complete cut. That is the root of your problem imo.
Click to expand...

okay, now you are just making me self-conscious :lol:

The blades were just sharpened and my RPMs and blade tip speed are right where they should be.
Some of them do look at bit rough (maybe I need to drive slower?), but areas where I mowed with the same blades and didn't apply the Panterra don't have the speckled look.

But I'll crawl back under my mower and try to get those suckers razor sharp, and see what happens on future applications :mrgreen:


----------



## ErosionWizard

superkaz661 said:


> So Im a newbie on this forum, but Ive been around on other sites for a while. Silly question, but after having read the surfactant article posted, which covers the available chemistries in the market, has anyone ever tried applying something like a standard NIS (like Alligare 90) that a lot of us buy by the gallon? Sure the article refers to is as old chemistry, but its the same case for Penterra.
> 
> Maybe I just volunteered myself for something...


I read that USGA article and it has good points and may off in others. Yes it was started long ago. But it is still relatively new to home use. The PeneGator product has over 20 years in the fields. That's like a baby. So yes it's not new as in last year. But it not old like 100 years.

More than age I would focus on how they work. PAM is like the big name and often people just think that if you know about one... You know them all. That is just not so.

It all comes down to soil structure and electric charge. Negatives and positives and how they mix. PeneGator has no root uptake and will eventually will brake down into Co2.

Ps. I'm still testing my yard. I have no new color change other than more green. Soil is a little softer and more moist. I will have to prob it soon.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Hey guys. I had a show to work this weekend. So I will do my best to get stuff shipping out the beginning of this next week.

This is still just a side test for me and I have to fit it in. Sorry for the hold up. Hang in there and help will be coming soon.

I will only be able to send a small amount for a few guys because I'm covering everything on my own. It's a liquid and not going to be cheap for me to ship.

If people want more. I will make it available for a fraction of the price y'all pay for the other stuff. 
Seems good to get you guys a good price on a product that will actually do what it is supposed too.


----------



## MckinneyLawn

I'd be interested in trying penegator. How much is it?


----------



## ErosionWizard

Ok I just bought this today. One step closer to getting this stuff out to y'all 


They are 32oz bottles. I think I will only be able to send out the first bottle free. Shippingwith is going to add up fast. So I will cover the first 32oz free for one guy in each new state that is willing to help with the test of the PeneGator. I will make more bottles available at a very reasonable rate for anyone that might want to buy more. I'm not try to make money off y'all. Just also not trying to go broke playing with this stuff.


----------



## synergy0852

Have any candidates for MI yet?


----------



## Jacob_S

ErosionWizard said:


> Ok I just bought this today. One step closer to getting this stuff out to y'all
> 
> 
> They are 32oz bottles. I think I will only be able to send out the first bottle free. Shippingwith is going to add up fast. So I will cover the first 32oz free for one guy in each new state that is willing to help with the test of the PeneGator. I will make more bottles available at a very reasonable rate for anyone that might want to buy more. I'm not try to make money off y'all. Just also not trying to go broke playing with this stuff.


I'd be willing to be a Louisiana tester for you, I can pick a good area to use only this product on.


----------



## MckinneyLawn

Since Texas is already taken I'd be willing to purchase one to try as long as the price is reasonable.


----------



## ErosionWizard

MckinneyLawn said:


> Since Texas is already taken I'd be willing to purchase one to try as long as the price is reasonable.


That is the million dollar question. As I have said in the past. This product is used in the fields and has a long track record of successful soil treatment. I'm just the guy that found it by chance because of soil troubles.

32oz of the other stuff is $21.65 plus shipping. I have read a few people have ordered multiple bottles and had ok results. I have not seen anyone address the price directly. Someone did say they would be happy if it only did part of what it claims. Any thought on what a good product should cost?

I will be talking to the owner soon. They are used to selling a few thousand gallons at a time. I think I'm mostly just a pain in the butt to him.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Ok. Update.

I have not forgot about y'all. I am just having a little hold up with material. I think I offended the owner a little when I said that I wanted to test the stuff and give a little away. He informed me that they are part the test stage. The material has over 20 years of proven successful soil treatment in the fields. He said they know it works.

I will talk with him again and hope to have good news. I will still be given the few samples to a couple guys and than will try to make it available to everyone at a very competitive price structure.
Thank you all for you help and for staying with me on this journey.

My lawn is look a little darker than others around me. I also took a soil core sample and now have over 10 inches of moisture. That's a real improvement for my soil.

Have a great week y'all. I will be back soon with what I hope is good news.


----------



## Drewmey

Let me know if you would like someone from VA to test. I've got a sloped front yard with TTTF. There is specifically an area about 8' wide between the sidewalk and the street that does not tend to hold moisture particularly well. Seems to always get dryer faster in the summer. Meanwhile in the back, a bunch of other houses all slope water down to my backyard. In addition, my backyard also all slopes to one corner. The high end gets dry in the summer and the low end sometimes get bogged down by too much water in the spring.


----------



## seiyafan

Does PeneGator help with very sandy soil?


----------



## zeus201

I can be a tester in Iowa if needed.


----------



## Rucraz2

Minnesota here if you need some help. I have a bad dry area on a slope that needs help.


----------



## ErosionWizard

seiyafan said:


> Does PeneGator help with very sandy soil?


Yes it can help sandy soil also. You need a minimum of 2% clay for the molecular bonding. I believe they have some research on each different type of soil they have studied or used material on. Again please remember that all of this companies work is about improving over all soil quality. They treat the dirt and that benefits whatever is grown in that properly structured soil.

Excuse my delayed response. I was out of the country and on vacation. I will now get back to focusing on this incredible material. I still plan to give a few bottles away and have more for sell. 
The company has been bizzy with the big farmers right now. I am talking with them about how to bottle for the home users and if it will be a cost efficient venture.

Thank you all again for you input and your patience with this process.


----------



## seiyafan

Thanks, I am interested in the product if you have some for sell.


----------



## NJ-lawn

I'm interested here in NJ. My soil is more sand than clay.


----------



## ErosionWizard

Great news !!!!! What we have all been waiting for. The owner is going to let me package his material in smaller amounts for home use. We will start with 32oz and gallon size bottles. Right now the smallest they do is 5 gallons but they mix 1500 gallon batches. So going to have a lot of little bottles soon.

Thank you all for your patience and understanding in getting this going. I'm very sure it is all worth the wait when you see how well it works.

I will let everyone know when the new bottles and labels are here. Should be only a week more before shipping can start.

I will honor the deals I have to send out a bottle for free to some guys and make more available to everyone.


----------



## Spammage

Good deal @ErosionWizard. Looking forward to trying it out.


----------



## PostageStampLawnGuy

Willing to test here in PA. 1k lawn.


----------



## Jordan90

Willing to test on my rock hard clay


----------



## sanders4617

I'm very interested in this product. Let me know how to purchase some. I can't drive a screwdriver more than 2" into my soil in a lot of areas right now. I was out at 11pm last night spraying baby shampoo all over it haha. Gonna see if that helped any when I get home.


----------



## ZachUA

Interested as well.


----------



## JTCJC

Does anyone know if you have to water in tournament ready plus pellets? I am applying it with a underhill hose end sprayer. The label does not specify so I am guessing no. Thanks in advance.


----------



## Sbpep

Noob question here, just got penterra in. the math should be easy with my yard being 1000 sq ft, but im utterly confused by how much to put in my orbit dial-n-spray and on what setting. any help greatly appreciated. thanks to all that post on here because i'm already learning so much.


----------



## Togo

Sbpep said:


> Noob question here, just got penterra in. the math should be easy with my yard being 1000 sq ft, but im utterly confused by how much to put in my orbit dial-n-spray and on what setting. any help greatly appreciated. thanks to all that post on here because i'm already learning so much.


If I recall correctly it's 4fl oz the first app with 50 gallons of water. Follow up apps are 1 fl oz.

If you don't know how much it meters out at a time just kind of adjust as you go so you get it fairly even. I don't think it's entirely necessary for it to be perfect.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So guys, sorry for the ignorance but I've read most of this thread and the product labels and still have questions.

What is a wetting agent?
Are these companies misusing the term wetting agent?
Is it safe to assume that ALL of these products have a surfactant, just that some also have wetting agents?
Is yucca a wetting agent?
Is there a difference between yucca powder and yucca extract?
Does tournament readyand penterra do the same exact thing? Or is one a surfactant and one a wetting agent?

Arent wetting agents kinds of useless because after maybe a day or 2 the grass still needs water? Not like you can get around that.


----------



## dkggpeters

Thick n Dense said:


> So guys, sorry for the ignorance but I've read most of this thread and the product labels and still have questions.
> 
> What is a wetting agent?
> Are these companies misusing the term wetting agent?
> Is it safe to assume that ALL of these products have a surfactant, just that some also have wetting agents?
> Is yucca a wetting agent?
> Is there a difference between yucca powder and yucca extract?
> Does tournament readyand penterra do the same exact thing? Or is one a surfactant and one a wetting agent?
> 
> Arent wetting agents kinds of useless because after maybe a day or 2 the grass still needs water? Not like you can get around that.


Read the below:
http://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/ticpdf.py?file=/article/zontek-understanding-7-20-12.pdf


----------



## Thick n Dense

@dkggpeters 
NiceFind!
A lot to take in and haven't read yet but I will.
Thanks


----------



## dkggpeters

Thick n Dense said:


> @dkggpeters
> NiceFind!
> A lot to take in and haven't read yet but I will.
> Thanks


Thanks, but not my find. It was linked earlier in this thread.


----------



## sanders4617

I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).

Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??

I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?

I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.


----------



## Mightyquinn

sanders4617 said:


> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.


I don't have a Pellet Pro Gun but do plan on getting one when I run out of my liquid Tournament Ready. I think it will work just fine off of your house spigot but it will take longer to apply the correct amount of product this way. I also believe the nozzle you use on the end of the gun will play a role too, the blue one that comes with it is more designed for a golf course with high flow water lines, so I think a homeowner should probably experiment with a different nozzle. I highly recommend plumbing into your irrigation system :thumbup: Do you have separate meter for your irrigation? I did that to mine a few years ago and it's amazing at the difference in GPM. I do have a 1/2" inlet going into the house and a 1" for the irrigation so that can make a huge difference.

I'm not a huge fan of dragging a hose around the yard but for this purpose, I will make an exception as it seems a little more cost effective.


----------



## adgattoni

sanders4617 said:


> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.


It comes with an Underhill Cloud Burst nozzle designed for high volume (34 GPM). It works better with a 3/4 inch hose, but it's still nowhere near optimal performance on a residential hosebib. If I had an irrigation system, I would definitely put spigots on the main line at various points around the house. On the pellet container itself, I think I read there is supposed to be 1 revolution of the pellet per minute. I don't think you will get that on a hosebib either. I just walk a lot slower and do multiple passes to compensate.


----------



## sanders4617

I've been under the impression that 1 pellet (TR) will cover roughly 15k-17k. I sprayed 2k square feet and i use maybe 10-15%. So sounds like it went pretty well.


----------



## smurg

Mightyquinn said:


> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a Pellet Pro Gun but do plan on getting one when I run out of my liquid Tournament Ready. I think it will work just fine off of your house spigot but it will take longer to apply the correct amount of product this way. I also believe the nozzle you use on the end of the gun will play a role too, the blue one that comes with it is more designed for a golf course with high flow water lines, so I think a homeowner should probably experiment with a different nozzle. I highly recommend plumbing into your irrigation system :thumbup: Do you have separate meter for your irrigation? I did that to mine a few years ago and it's amazing at the difference in GPM. I do have a 1/2" inlet going into the house and a 1" for the irrigation so that can make a huge difference.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of dragging a hose around the yard but for this purpose, I will make an exception as it seems a little more cost effective.
Click to expand...

Are there other advantages to the pellets? Previously, I had calculated they were like 5x the price for the same amount of active ingredient versus the liquid.


----------



## Thick n Dense

smurg said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a Pellet Pro Gun but do plan on getting one when I run out of my liquid Tournament Ready. I think it will work just fine off of your house spigot but it will take longer to apply the correct amount of product this way. I also believe the nozzle you use on the end of the gun will play a role too, the blue one that comes with it is more designed for a golf course with high flow water lines, so I think a homeowner should probably experiment with a different nozzle. I highly recommend plumbing into your irrigation system :thumbup: Do you have separate meter for your irrigation? I did that to mine a few years ago and it's amazing at the difference in GPM. I do have a 1/2" inlet going into the house and a 1" for the irrigation so that can make a huge difference.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of dragging a hose around the yard but for this purpose, I will make an exception as it seems a little more cost effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are there other advantages to the pellets? Previously, I had calculated they were like 5x the price for the same amount of active ingredient versus the liquid.
Click to expand...

The cheap chameleon sprayer puts out 8 oz per gallon which is pretty dang high for a hose end. I took out the filter for a bit more flow as well.

My last app of humic, soap, kelp and potash (with a dash of urea) was mixed in a 5 gallon bucket and was easily spread over 4k in one pass.

Interested in knowing if this makes the liquid cost/time effective as well?


----------



## Mightyquinn

smurg said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have a Pellet Pro Gun but do plan on getting one when I run out of my liquid Tournament Ready. I think it will work just fine off of your house spigot but it will take longer to apply the correct amount of product this way. I also believe the nozzle you use on the end of the gun will play a role too, the blue one that comes with it is more designed for a golf course with high flow water lines, so I think a homeowner should probably experiment with a different nozzle. I highly recommend plumbing into your irrigation system :thumbup: Do you have separate meter for your irrigation? I did that to mine a few years ago and it's amazing at the difference in GPM. I do have a 1/2" inlet going into the house and a 1" for the irrigation so that can make a huge difference.
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of dragging a hose around the yard but for this purpose, I will make an exception as it seems a little more cost effective.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Are there other advantages to the pellets? Previously, I had calculated they were like 5x the price for the same amount of active ingredient versus the liquid.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can compare the pellets to the liquid as far as AI goes since they need to be formulated differently to achieve there intended goals. The pellets are definitely cheaper over the liquid. Even if you factor in the cost of the Pellet Pro gun you would recoup your costs fairly quickly with the pellets.


----------



## sanders4617

adgattoni said:


> sanders4617 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've noticed on some different YouTube videos, people with the Pellet Pro, are getting a nice thick spray. But when I watch the Underhill video, they're getting a massive spray. I know they're using higher volume/pressure setup (looks like they were at a golf course).
> 
> Do these still work properly with residential PSI/GPM??
> 
> I bought one and mine works like I've seen from a couple other YouTube people.. but was just curious if there are minimum requirements as well?
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about plumbing in a spigot to my main sprinkler line. It's got plenty of PSI/GPM and would definitely be useful for certain situations.
> 
> 
> 
> It comes with an Underhill Cloud Burst nozzle designed for high volume (34 GPM). It works better with a 3/4 inch hose, but it's still nowhere near optimal performance on a residential hosebib. If I had an irrigation system, I would definitely put spigots on the main line at various points around the house. On the pellet container itself, I think I read there is supposed to be 1 revolution of the pellet per minute. I don't think you will get that on a hosebib either. I just walk a lot slower and do multiple passes to compensate.
Click to expand...

I installed a hosebib to the main line of my irrigation yesterday. Huge difference in flow and GPM. Whenever I get a chance, I'm gonna test the Pellet Pro and compare it on the house hosebib and the irrigation hosebib.

I'm expecting much better performance out of it.


----------



## ktgrok

I'm trying to follow this discussion, and I'm still not sure, which, if any, would be best for sandy soil that tends to get hydrophobic when too dry.


----------



## sanders4617

ktgrok said:


> I'm trying to follow this discussion, and I'm still not sure, which, if any, would be best for sandy soil that tends to get hydrophobic when too dry.


Golf courses use the pellets. They use Tournament Ready and others. They are mostly sand based, so I'd assume that this works just fine for sandy soils. That's an assumption of course, but I'd think it would work just fine for that?

See if you can contact the guy who does YouTube (Lawn Tips). He's from Australia and has worked in golf course turf.. he could probably tell you exactly. @lawntips ?


----------



## Mightyquinn

ktgrok said:


> I'm trying to follow this discussion, and I'm still not sure, which, if any, would be best for sandy soil that tends to get hydrophobic when too dry.


There is no "One product for this and one product for that" when it comes to Wetting agents as there hasn't been a ton of testing done with them. The best you can do is make an educated guess and try something to see if you can tell a difference. I believe there is an article on the first or second page of this thread that kind of breaks them down a little bit so you need to know if you are wanting to "HOLD" water or "PULL" water through your soil.


----------



## NJ-lawn

Funny your talking about this today. I just used the pellet pro for the first time. I think I over did it because residential water flow is not high enough and I guess I didn't walk fast enough. I used have the pellet on 6m/sqft. Hopefully I don't have any adverse effects.

You really need a 3/4" hose and more psi.....


----------



## ktgrok

Definitely wanting to hold water, but also to reduce hydrophobic tendancies. Sand drains just fine once it actually gets wet, it is the getting it wet that is the issue.


----------



## adgattoni

ktgrok said:


> Definitely wanting to hold water, but also to reduce hydrophobic tendancies. Sand drains just fine once it actually gets wet, it is the getting it wet that is the issue.


I would get Tournament Ready (either liquid or pellets). Both TR and Penterra will help break the surface tension, but something like Penterra is more of a "mover."


----------



## Mightyquinn

ktgrok said:


> Definitely wanting to hold water, but also to reduce hydrophobic tendancies. Sand drains just fine once it actually gets wet, it is the getting it wet that is the issue.


I've been using TR for over a year now and it really seems to work well on my sandy soil. I don't notice the hydrophobic soil issues anymore and seems to hold moisture for a little longer :thumbup:


----------



## Austinite

Have similar results to @Mightyquinn , my back yard has zero puddling even during hard rains. I'm so impressed with TR, it will be a staple in my plans.


----------



## sanders4617

I tested the PelletPro with TR pellet on my new spigot. Wow what a difference. It sprays probably 15 feet out in front and drenched areas fast. Also went through the pellet much faster too.

I'd definitely recommend anyone using these, to try and tap into your main line and have a spigot plumbed in. Made big difference.


----------



## g-man

This is pretty cool.

https://mobile.twitter.com/uarkturf/status/1154878476601745409


----------



## daniel3507

Wow that's a huge difference. May have to invest in tournament ready and a pellet pro.

Do you still need to water after using the pellet pro or does the hose put down enough to not worry about it.


----------



## adgattoni

g-man said:


> This is pretty cool.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1154878476601745409


Kinda disappointed this testing didn't include Tournament Ready. I've had good results with it and several others have as well (@tneicna and @Redtenchu), but these don't seem to have shown any meaningful difference from the control plots.

Also worth mentioning that this is on USGA-spec green (probably 12 inches of coarse sand). The "penetrating" factor is probably more helpful on this builder-grade soil of mine (50% clay, 30% rocks, 20% construction trash).


----------



## g-man

@adgattoni he mentioned in the comments that they were doing another trial for private label and he cannot share the results. I wonder who that company is.

Soil do matter in these test. Tournament ready, dispatch and revolution all have a cool mode of action.


----------



## Redtenchu

I'm interested to learn what the private labels are. I've been impressed with TR and would recommend it.


----------



## Jgourley124

Posted this in my hometown thread, this might help some with more information on Tournament Ready and PelletPro Applicator:

It's been just under two weeks since I applied to my lawn. My main area for concern was the backyard which was showing signs of heat stress. Since I applied Tournament Ready surfactant I have noticed a major improvement with color and dry spots going away. I have only watered 1/4" after applying the surfactant to water it in and that's it. A few photos of showing the applicator gun, how much of a pellet was used during my application and the before and after pictures. I would say the $120 investment was worth it. Pictures were roughly same time of day, little more light in the after.

Before


After


Before 


After


Used pellet


Applicator


Tournament Ready


----------



## Mightyquinn

You know that you don't have to remove the pellet from the container that it comes in?

It still looks like your lawn could use a little more water or are you having some fungus issues?


----------



## Jgourley124

Mightyquinn said:


> You know that you don't have to remove the pellet from the container that it comes in?
> 
> It still looks like your lawn could use a little more water or are you having some fungus issues?


Thank you, I took the pellet out so you could see how much was used.

No fungus issues, just heat/drought stress. My lawn is fully irrigated but I choose to not run sprinklers as much as I can. The back yard was more of an experiment with this wetting agent and Just rain water.


----------



## tneicna

I've been using TR for over 60 days now and my notes:

- TR works very well on my type of soil (clay'ish/loam) 
- Wetting agents on golf greens are a completely different animal. Golf courses are prominently sand now, so what works for us homeowners might not work for a golf course (and vice versa)
- TR seems to influence microbe activity because it has a sugar complex (it smells sweet)


----------



## dongdong

so in theory, If i use penterra, then use a liquid aerator, i can technically get more "aeration" out of it?


----------



## adgattoni

dongdong said:


> so in theory, If i use penterra, then use a liquid aerator, i can technically get more "aeration" out of it?


Which aeration product? Most "liquid aeration" products are just wetting agents FYI (most of them are just SLS).


----------



## dongdong

adgattoni said:


> dongdong said:
> 
> 
> 
> so in theory, If i use penterra, then use a liquid aerator, i can technically get more "aeration" out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> Which aeration product? Most "liquid aeration" products are just wetting agents FYI (most of them are just SLS).
Click to expand...

I have a bottle of Simple lawn solutions soil loosener. 60% of it is ammonium lauryl sulfate.

I have clay soil, TTTF


----------



## adgattoni

dongdong said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> dongdong said:
> 
> 
> 
> so in theory, If i use penterra, then use a liquid aerator, i can technically get more "aeration" out of it?
> 
> 
> 
> Which aeration product? Most "liquid aeration" products are just wetting agents FYI (most of them are just SLS).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have a bottle of Simple lawn solutions soil loosener. 60% of it is ammonium lauryl sulfate.
> 
> I have clay soil, TTTF
Click to expand...

Yeah, I don't know what else is in that, but SLS is just another wetting agent/surfactant (used in many soaps/shampoos). It's basically the same thing, but penterra is a stronger wetting agent.


----------



## BubbaGrumpus

Will using SLS harm any beneficial bacteria/organisms in the lawn? I'm down to my last application of RGS and Air-8. I'd like to use some sort of BLSC/KH combination, but I'm not sure how harmful "soap" would be to the fauna and flora.

Kelp4less is a fantastic site. I could see myself spending a small fortune on products for my little grass farm.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Anyone try this in place of the pellet pro gun?
Design looks identical, would have to cut the pellets in half though.

https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/cleaners-auto-care/car-wash-nozzle-60773.html


----------



## Mightyquinn

Thick n Dense said:


> Anyone try this in place of the pellet pro gun?
> Design looks identical, would have to cut the pellets in half though.
> 
> https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/cleaners-auto-care/car-wash-nozzle-60773.html


I would be surprised if you get similar results with that gun, it's designed for car washing liquids, not pellets and I doubt the flow is the same.


----------



## ktgrok

So, I tried a few different easy to find, lower cost products with zero results, including the Scott's Every Drop liquid, baby shampoo, etc. 
Then I tried a product called EZ Wet, which instead of sodium laurel sulfate uses sodium hydroxide - basically lye from what I can tell. And that DID work. I can spray water on the soil and instead of beading off and running away it sinks right in! Now - I wouldn't want to use it often due to the basic pH, but it absolutely did work compared to the other products that did absolutely nothing visible.


----------



## Jgourley124

Thick n Dense said:


> Anyone try this in place of the pellet pro gun?
> Design looks identical, would have to cut the pellets in half though.
> 
> https://www.harborfreight.com/automotive/cleaners-auto-care/car-wash-nozzle-60773.html


TBH you can get something like this https://www.amazon.com/Pipeline-Strainer-Irrigation-Multipurpose-Accessories/dp/B07GWCF511 and connect a hose nozzle to one end and a ball valve to the other and it will be close enough to the Pellet Pro gun. After taking apart my pellet pro gun, all it is in an inline filter with removable cup, ball valve on one side, and a nozzle on the others.


----------



## Backyard Soldier

sanders4617 said:


> I tested the PelletPro with TR pellet on my new spigot. Wow what a difference. It sprays probably 15 feet out in front and drenched areas fast. Also went through the pellet much faster too.
> 
> I'd definitely recommend anyone using these, to try and tap into your main line and have a spigot plumbed in. Made big difference.


Hmmmmmm. Sounds like a VIDEO WOrthy topic and demos for channel? Hehehe.


----------



## drewwitt

@Jgourley124 @Thick n Dense I just got in that garden hose filter from amazon. I've been looking for an alternative to the $100 application gun. At $10 I thought it's a good experiment.

As suspected, the clear container is smaller and the Tournament Ready pellets are too big.

I'm thinking of extracting the TR product out of its jar and either cutting it in half or melting it to pour into the smaller jar from the garden hose filter. Has anyone done this? How have you taken the TR product out of the jar it comes in?

If successful, I'll make a video or post pictures.

I used Penterra this year and was impressed. My friend @Austinite has used both and said TR is much more powerful.


----------



## Jgourley124

drewwitt said:


> @Jgourley124 @Thick n Dense I just got in that garden hose filter from amazon. I've been looking for an alternative to the $100 application gun. At $10 I thought it's a good experiment.
> 
> As suspected, the clear container is smaller and the Tournament Ready pellets are too big.
> 
> I'm thinking of extracting the TR product out of its jar and either cutting it in half or melting it to pour into the smaller jar from the garden hose filter. Has anyone done this? How have you taken the TR product out of the jar it comes in?
> 
> If successful, I'll make a video or post pictures.
> 
> I used Penterra this year and was impressed. My friend @Austinite has used both and said TR is much more powerful


I took my TR out of the jar and put it in the clear container for visual to show how much is used. I also took the lid off of one and it dropped on the floor. I'm assuming if it doesn't come out of the TR jar easily you can use the sides of the TR jar with a heat gun on low to soften the product inside and it should slide r@Jgourley124 
Also IIRC Penterra and TR are designed for two different applications. Penterra is to alleviate water build up on soils and to better penetrate into the soils, among other things. TR is designed to hold water in the soils to increase soil absorption. I could be wrong so don't quote me.


----------



## Notchy

So I am still trying to confirm after reading through the thread, what is the best Surfactants/Wetting agents for my residential lawn.

It is mostly hard clay, I had a landscaping company do some work and the poor guys had to use a pickaxe to break up the soil and remove it.

Ultimately I would like the best bang for the buck on my 14,000 sq/ft lawn and my location is Toronto, Ontario Canada/


----------



## NJ-lawn

What are your thoughts on using TR one last time? Is it beneficial to use this time of year?


----------



## Notchy

Anyone?


----------



## daniel3507

Picked up the Underhill PelletPro on Amazon. Got it for $87 and figured I would give it a shot. As for the Tournament Ready Plus pellets, is R&R the best option for those? $12.95 each and about $13 shipping for me. How long does each pellet last?


----------



## SGrabs33

daniel3507 said:


> Picked up the Underhill PelletPro on Amazon. Got it for $87 and figured I would give it a shot. As for the Tournament Ready Plus pellets, is R&R the best option for those? $12.95 each and about $13 shipping for me. How long does each pellet last?


It says " Use 1 pellet per 16,000 sq ft" but ymmv probably. I think I used half a pellet on my 4K the first time I did it. Just have to get use to how quickly it dissolves.


----------



## adgattoni

daniel3507 said:


> Picked up the Underhill PelletPro on Amazon. Got it for $87 and figured I would give it a shot. As for the Tournament Ready Plus pellets, is R&R the best option for those? $12.95 each and about $13 shipping for me. How long does each pellet last?


I try to get 3-4 pellets at a time to cut down the shipping cost per unit. Other places generally want you to buy a whole case at a time.


----------



## Gilley11

Have these wetting agents proven to do anything more than soaps/baby shampoo?


----------



## lilslugger

Just applied my first app of Penterra this morning. Curious a) how often are you applying and b) how do you combat the froth to make sure you apply the right amounts? I'm using a Hudson hose-end sprayer.


----------



## JERSEY

Gilley11 said:


> Have these wetting agents proven to do anything more than soaps/baby shampoo?


I am wondering the same.


----------



## smurg

Notchy said:


> So I am still trying to confirm after reading through the thread, what is the best Surfactants/Wetting agents for my residential lawn.
> 
> It is mostly hard clay, I had a landscaping company do some work and the poor guys had to use a pickaxe to break up the soil and remove it.
> 
> Ultimately I would like the best bang for the buck on my 14,000 sq/ft lawn and my location is Toronto, Ontario Canada/


Depends on what your lawn problem is. If you have standing water in spots, I'd buy some penterra. If you have slopes that are perpetually dry at the top, I'd go with Tournament Ready. If you have neither and just want to drop money, I'd try out some Revolution by Aquatrols.

They actually released two new products: Zipline and Aqueduct Flex, but they are seemingly difficult to attain as a simple homeowner.


----------



## smurg

For those who have bought the pellet pro, what type of nozzle did you end up going with? It comes with the CloudBurst and I was wondering why the water barely came out until I realized it was rated for ~35GPM. My spigot is about 6GPM at 80PSI or so. I was debating sticking with my standard 4" brass adjustable nozzle or go with the precision rainbow nozzle (15GPM; lowest in their "precision" line) or the CoolPro Fog Nozzle (4-6GPM; but I'm worried this is more of a misting nozzle?).


----------



## bhutchinson87

smurg said:


> For those who have bought the pellet pro, what type of nozzle did you end up going with? It comes with the CloudBurst and I was wondering why the water barely came out until I realized it was rated for ~35GPM. My spigot is about 6GPM at 80PSI or so. I was debating sticking with my standard 4" brass adjustable nozzle or go with the precision rainbow nozzle (15GPM; lowest in their "precision" line) or the CoolPro Fog Nozzle (4-6GPM; but I'm worried this is more of a misting nozzle?).


I use the one that came with it. I measured the pellet before and after the application and it was spot one for the area I was covering.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Looking for advice and personal experience on penterra. I ordered a bottle and I'm trying to find the best app outcome. I'm going to use my spreadermate and backpack sprayer to put it down but I have a few spots that I want to add it to. Which totals about 12k sq ft. Do I really need to apply the recommended rate with 5 gallons of water? I have irrigation, we are getting hit with high temps and I've got clay soil. So my objective it get the water to absorb quickly since most of my problem areas are in full sun. I just want to do it right and be careful because I've heard that penterra can harm the turf. Can I use less water and just water it in with my irrigation? Any one with experience with this?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Anyone??


----------



## drewwitt

Yes you can water it in.

I have a small yard and apply with an ortho hose end. I think I do 1oz/M a month. I set the dial to 3oz I think. Then after it's done, I usually hand water very heavily (don't have a system).

It has worked really well for me and haven't experienced any burn. A little bit goes a long way. In my experience, it helped relieve surface tension and made the ground (texas clay) accept the water like a sponge.


----------



## g-man

@Babameca

https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/water-movement-in-soils-and-soil-surfactants-no-bs-here-r199/


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

So saw this thread and wanted to see if anyone had information about something called Greensand/Glauconite? I cant find much information about it anywhere.

They advertise it as

Increases moisture holding capacity of soils

Increases soil's ability to store and retain nutrients

 Improves soil structure and helps loosen compacted soil

Never heard of it before, local farm ag store sells it 
http://marionag.ygmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/Pro-Pell-It-GreensandLabelV3.pdf


----------



## Jacob_S

For those wondering about Penterra it works, I used about 2 and a half bottles worth over the course of last year. My problem spots are no longer problem spots, the water dissipates much quicker now. I have now switched to soaker+ and treat the entire yard, not only does rain water disappear quickly within hours at most rather than days, I see far less affects of dry spot between rains without supplemental watering.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Jacob_S said:


> For those wondering about Penterra it works, I used about 2 and a half bottles worth over the course of last year. My problem spots are no longer problem spots, the water dissipates much quicker now. I have now switched to soaker+ and treat the entire yard, not only does rain water disappear quickly within hours at most rather than days, I see far less affects of dry spot between rains without supplemental watering.


This is good to hear. I just bought a bottle of it and will be trying it out. Does it cause any turf damage that you've seen? We are getting slammed up here in New England was constant heat and humidity, we finally got a rain storm yesterday that helped but the heat just doesn't let up so finding a good time to apply is small, unless it's later in the evening


----------



## Jacob_S

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> This is good to hear. I just bought a bottle of it and will be trying it out. Does it cause any turf damage that you've seen? We are getting slammed up here in New England was constant heat and humidity, we finally got a rain storm yesterday that helped but the heat just doesn't let up so finding a good time to apply is small, unless it's later in the evening


No turf damage that I have seen


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

Penterra will be here Friday. Planning on applying it with my Ortho hose end sprayer. I would appreciate any timing and mixing tips for the first application and subsequent maintenance applications. Thanks!


----------



## daniel3507

I noticed it foaming a lot in my Ortho sprayer.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

I got the Penterra applied last evening with the Ortho sprayer (no foaming issues). I used the lowest setting of 1 TSP/gallon. That's the setting Geoponics recommended to me. After application, I watered it in with 1/2" of irrigation. Hoping to see a difference.


----------



## Philly_Gunner

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Jacob_S said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those wondering about Penterra it works, I used about 2 and a half bottles worth over the course of last year. My problem spots are no longer problem spots, the water dissipates much quicker now. I have now switched to soaker+ and treat the entire yard, not only does rain water disappear quickly within hours at most rather than days, I see far less affects of dry spot between rains without supplemental watering.
> 
> 
> 
> This is good to hear. I just bought a bottle of it and will be trying it out. Does it cause any turf damage that you've seen? We are getting slammed up here in New England was constant heat and humidity, we finally got a rain storm yesterday that helped but the heat just doesn't let up so finding a good time to apply is small, unless it's later in the evening
Click to expand...

Speaking from recent experience it can do some damage. I usually do separate Foliar applications. AMS and humic one week and then chelated iron and Penterra the next. However, trying to save time and cut corners I mixed them all together. I had some pretty significant Foliar burn. So....after reading the first page of this thread (wish I would have read this thread last weekend) I now know why. Apparently the surfactant keeps the AMS on the leaf blade too long which led to burning. My second mistake was waiting 4 hours to water the application in. Oh well, live and learn.


----------



## smurg

Just as an personal update, the pellet pro application of tournament ready with actosol is doing great on the lawn. I don't have irrigation and the rainfall hasn't been close to 1" per week, but the lawn is still quite green (except a day or two after a cut with my dull reel) compared to the rest of the neighborhood.

Without a separate irrigation valve at high flow, it does take a little over an hour to put down 1/3 - 1/2 a pellet each weekend, but seems to be worth it. I have been using the Underhill Rainbow precision nozzle as I'm only running at like 5-6 GPM @ 80psi I believe and it still only sprays about 10ft out.

Haven't gotten the Penterra back out yet, but will think that would still be useful in my swales.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

My Penterra application didn't do anything noticeable. I applied it again at 1 oz./gallon and I still don't see any difference in water movement or screwdriver test.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

Penterra update. After I applied it at 1 oz./gallon and watered it in with about 1/2" of irrigation afterwards, my TTTF has suffered pretty much around 50% - 60% loss. The Penterra is the only thing I applied and something about my application may have smoked half my TTTF. Good thing overseeding is around the corner.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Penterra update. After I applied it at 1 oz./gallon and watered it in with about 1/2" of irrigation afterwards, my TTTF has suffered pretty much around 50% - 60% loss. The Penterra is the only thing I applied and something about my application pretty much smoked half my TTTF. Good thing overseeding is around the corner.


That's pretty crazy. I wonder what caused it? Even though you watered it in, have the temps been pretty extreme? What was the time frame? Was it gradual or immediate die off?


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

@Scagfreedom48z+ No idea! Temps were in the 90s before and the weeks afterwards. App was on July 21st and within a week I started seeing an overall lighter green and the lawn looking thinner. After 3 weeks now it's 50% - 60% gone.


----------



## g-man

@Glen_Cove_5511 I've never use this product, but your application description is confusing. 1oz/g to 1000sqft? to 4000sqft? How many oz of product per unit of area? How long between application and irrigation?


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## Glen_Cove_5511

@g-man Sorry for the confusion. 1 oz./gallon rate with an Ortho hose end sprayer over the entire 4,000 sq. ft. That equals about 2.5 oz./M.


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## g-man

How much product into the hose end sprayer? 10oz? I think they suggest 1oz/M.

How long between application and irrigation?


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## Glen_Cove_5511

@g-man I just put a few ounces extra and let the Ortho meter it. I feel like I was careful about moving along and not hitting areas more than once. I had some left over when done. They suggested the 1 oz./gallon after I saw no results with the first application the week prior. Irrigation after application was from irrigation. After that, plenty of rain... much more than 1" per week.


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## Glen_Cove_5511

I talked to my county extension agent this morning. After that conversation I'm not convinced my fescue loss is directly related to the Penterra application. He thinks it's a combination of fungus and the fact that it was a new lawn established last fall with too much fertilizer this Spring.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> I talked to my county extension agent this morning. After that conversation I'm not convinced my fescue loss is directly related to the Penterra application. He thinks it's a combination of fungus and the fact that it was a new lawn established last fall with too much fertilizer this Spring.


I'm sorry to hear about your headache. You're right in a sense that it's overseeding season. I was just concerned because I put down 1oz of penterra yesterday before about an inch of rain and I also put my irrigation on to get it off the leaf blade as much as possible. I haven't seen my ill effect. I'm getting ready for seed drop this weekend so I'm getting everything out of the way this week so that once the weekend comes, I'm not rushing


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## g-man

@Scagfreedom48z+ why are you doing penterra now in mid August?


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## Scagfreedom48z+

g-man said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ why are you doing penterra now in mid August?


I have spots in the turf that are repelling water because the soil is compacted. I'm trying to soften up the soil for my overseed this week. I'm trying to better my chances as much as possible for germination. Since late June, it's been a nightmare heatwave and the temps are finally breaking and staying on the cooler end


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## MrMinimizer

ktgrok said:


> So, I tried a few different easy to find, lower cost products with zero results, including the Scott's Every Drop liquid, baby shampoo, etc.
> Then I tried a product called EZ Wet, which instead of sodium laurel sulfate uses sodium hydroxide - basically lye from what I can tell. And that DID work. I can spray water on the soil and instead of beading off and running away it sinks right in! Now - I wouldn't want to use it often due to the basic pH, but it absolutely did work compared to the other products that did absolutely nothing visible.


I just bought a gallon from https://www.amazon.com/Grow-More-8055-Penetrant-1-Quart/dp/B006408UZM/
Hope it works on my rock hard clay


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## ricwilli

Just finished reading this whole thread. Getting ready to purchase Penterra. I would like to use my backpack sprayer to apply it. I would like to do 1oz in 4 gallon of water per 1ksft. Then irrigate the lawn. Is it OK to do it like this? I read 1oz per 5 gallon of water but my sprayer is only 4 gallons. Will having the Penterra on the grass blades for 30 minutes cause an issue? It may take me that long to finish spraying the lawn before I can turn on the irrigation to water it in. I'm thinking to just apply it to the backyard only.


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## smurg

ricwilli said:


> Just finished reading this whole thread. Getting ready to purchase Penterra. I would like to use my backpack sprayer to apply it. I would like to do 1oz in 4 gallon of water per 1ksft. Then irrigate the lawn. Is it OK to do it like this? I read 1oz per 5 gallon of water but my sprayer is only 4 gallons. Will having the Penterra on the grass blades for 30 minutes cause an issue? It may take me that long to finish spraying the lawn before I can turn on the irrigation to water it in. I'm thinking to just apply it to the backyard only.


I used to apply it 5 fl oz in 4 gallons and it came out a bit erratically but it went down.

However, I have switched to just using it in my swales since my whole lawn is sloped and Penterra is more of a drainage soil surfactant. 30min on the leaf blades shouldn't be an issue afaik.


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## Tide

I'm trying to decide between Tournament Ready and Aquatrols Revolution. Which of these two would you say is the better option to use in liquid form from a backpack sprayer? I have hard red clay soil in a non-irrigated centipede area and it always looks dry.


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## Mightyquinn

Tide said:


> I'm trying to decide between Tournament Ready and Aquatrols Revolution. Which of these two would you say is the better option to use in liquid form from a backpack sprayer? I have hard red clay soil in a non-irrigated centipede area and it always looks dry.


Have you thought about using Tournament Ready in pellet form through a Pellet Pro gun?

Tournament Ready w/Actosol

Underhill Pellet Pro Applicator

I have used Tournament Ready in the liquid and pellet form and the pellet form is much more economical to use as you are basically watering it in as you apply it.

I don't think you could go wrong with either of the two wetting agents you are looking at, I think it would come down to price and how easy it would be to get either one. If you can find one of them locally it may be cheaper since you wouldn't have to pay for shipping.


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> Have you thought about using Tournament Ready in pellet form through a Pellet Pro gun?
> 
> Tournament Ready w/Actosol
> 
> Underhill Pellet Pro Applicator
> 
> I have used Tournament Ready in the liquid and pellet form and the pellet form is much more economical to use as you are basically watering it in as you apply it.
> 
> I don't think you could go wrong with either of the two wetting agents you are looking at, I think it would come down to price and how easy it would be to get either one. If you can find one of them locally it may be cheaper since you wouldn't have to pay for shipping.


Thanks, Mightyquinn! I did look at this option, but wasn't sure if that was the route I wanted to go or not due to how far away the centipede area is from the hose spigot. How critical is it that it gets watered in soon after applying? Is this something I could time with rainfall? Also, do you think a hard downpour would wash the wetting agent away or does it absolutely have to be a gentle watering?


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## Mightyquinn

You actually want a good watering after application so it gets down into the soil profile where it can do it's work. The label for the liquid version even states to water it in after application. Using the Pellet Pro kind of eliminates the need for rain or irrigation. I also usually try and time the application with my bug control (Bifen or Pendimethalin) as that needs watered in also.


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> You actually want a good watering after application so it gets down into the soil profile where it can do it's work. The label for the liquid version even states to water it in after application. Using the Pellet Pro kind of eliminates the need for rain or irrigation. I also usually try and time the application with my bug control (Bifen or Pendimethalin) as that needs watered in also.


I think you're right about the pellets. That's the route I am going to go since it should be easier to apply and also contains their Actosol additive. I certainly do appreciate your advice!


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## g-man

@Tide these products help with moisture management and reduce plant stress, but they will never replace water. Don't expect a huge difference in non irrigated zones.


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## Tide

g-man said:


> @Tide these products help with moisture management and reduce plant stress, but they will never replace water. Don't expect a huge difference in non irrigated zones.


Thanks, g-man. I plan to experiment with the wetting agents in my irrigated zones as well. However, I was hoping to make the biggest difference in my centipede area since it always seems dry. Do you think this is still worth a shot even though it only receives natural rainfall? One of the reasons I thought this would be a good option is because of the experiment mentioned in the Aquatrols blog where one side of a non-irrigated fairway received the wetting agent and the other did not. Based on the blog image, it looks like it worked great in spite of only receiving natural rainfall.

@Mightyquinn One other question. Do you know if the PelletPro applicator will work with a 5/8" hose with an adapter?


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## g-man

The experiment was done in sweden or Norway. I don't remember. The weather is very different than Alabama. It doesn't get super hot and they still get some rain. You also need to start the applications before stress shows up (May?). I'm testing some of it in non irrigated areas, but this year I'm getting a ton of rain, so not a good test.


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## Mightyquinn

@Tide The hose size doesn't matter as all residential hoses come with 3/4" GHT(Garden Hose Thread) fittings on them.


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## SCGrassMan

Mightyquinn said:


> Tide said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm trying to decide between Tournament Ready and Aquatrols Revolution. Which of these two would you say is the better option to use in liquid form from a backpack sprayer? I have hard red clay soil in a non-irrigated centipede area and it always looks dry.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you thought about using Tournament Ready in pellet form through a Pellet Pro gun?
> 
> Tournament Ready w/Actosol
> 
> Underhill Pellet Pro Applicator
> 
> I have used Tournament Ready in the liquid and pellet form and the pellet form is much more economical to use as you are basically watering it in as you apply it.
> 
> I don't think you could go wrong with either of the two wetting agents you are looking at, I think it would come down to price and how easy it would be to get either one. If you can find one of them locally it may be cheaper since you wouldn't have to pay for shipping.
Click to expand...

Did I read it correctly, that its one pellet per 1,000 sq ft? And how often does it need to be re-applied?


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## Mightyquinn

1 Pellet will cover roughly 16,000 sq/ft.

You can apply it monthly and/or apply to hot spots or LDS in your lawn as needed


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> 1 Pellet will cover roughly 16,000 sq/ft.
> 
> You can apply it monthly and/or apply to hot spots or LDS in your lawn as needed


It appears to be cheaper (based on square foot coverage) to use the pellets when compared to the liquid in addition to being easier to apply. Is this correct? It seems like it should be the other way around.


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## Mightyquinn

Not really when you think about it that you aren't paying for water basically. Maybe the process of making the liquid is more expensive?


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## VALawnNoob

Mightyquinn said:


> Not really when you think about it that you aren't paying for water basically. Maybe the process of making the liquid is more expensive?


this ^^ it seems like the process of adding water to convert to liquid (and still have reasonable shelf life), packaging and shipping it is the added cost that we pay.


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## Tide

@Mightyquinn About how long in minutes does it take for you to empty one pellet container? Or what's your application method/tips? I want to make sure I get proper coverage without wasting product.


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## Mightyquinn

I haven't really fine tuned it yet but what you could do is weigh the pellet (8 oz) before you spray and then weigh it after you spray and think you did a good job and then adjust from there. Since one pellet is suppose to cover 16K that's 2 applications for me. The GPM out of your hose will have a lot to do with how fast or slow you apply it. My hose is connected to my irrigation line so I get 20-30 GPM so YMMV.


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## rotolow

Tide said:


> @Mightyquinn About how long in minutes does it take for you to empty one pellet container? Or what's your application method/tips? I want to make sure I get proper coverage without wasting product.


Do you have a sprayer? The pellets can be dissolved relatively easily and sprayed without much fuss. Leave them out in the sun for a few hours and they get soft enough for you to squeeze them out of the jar they come in. A little hot water and a paint mixer will make the process quick and easy. I use a 5 gallon bucket and a strainer to dissolve mine.


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## Tide

rotolow said:


> Do you have a sprayer? The pellets can be dissolved relatively easily and sprayed without much fuss. Leave them out in the sun for a few hours and they get soft enough for you to squeeze them out of the jar they come in. A little hot water and a paint mixer will make the process quick and easy. I use a 5 gallon bucket and a strainer to dissolve mine.


Good idea! 1/2 ounce of pellet (if one whole pellet is 8 ounces) per thousand square feet should be about right. I may give this a shot if spraying with the hose doesn't work.


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## Camman595

From what I have read, I get the impression that Hydratain takes the water vapor out of the soil and brings it to the roots to be used. And I get the impression that Tournament Ready helps get the water down to the root zone. Is there any benefit to using both products?

Do I misunderstand how these work?


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## Tide

Camman595 said:


> From what I have read, I get the impression that Hydratain takes the water vapor out of the soil and brings it to the roots to be used. And I get the impression that Tournament Ready helps get the water down to the root zone. Is there any benefit to using both products?
> 
> Do I misunderstand how these work?


I'm interested in knowing this as well. I was curious if there would be any benefit to combining Tournament Ready with something else to improve moisture management. Is Tournament Ready more of a moisture retainer or a moisture mover? Or both?


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## Mightyquinn

Tide said:


> Camman595 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have read, I get the impression that Hydratain takes the water vapor out of the soil and brings it to the roots to be used. And I get the impression that Tournament Ready helps get the water down to the root zone. Is there any benefit to using both products?
> 
> Do I misunderstand how these work?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested in knowing this as well. I was curious if there would be any benefit to combining Tournament Ready with something else to improve moisture management. Is Tournament Ready more of a moisture retainer or a moisture mover? Or both?
Click to expand...

From all the research I have done Tournament Ready is a moisture retainer but the other advantage is that it evenly distributes the water in the soil also. Now the thing with Hydratain is that it "pulls moisture" from the air to hydrate the soil just seems kind of hokey to me as how would something that is in the soil be able to pull moisture from the air to any extent that it would supplement irrigation or rain. I'm sure it helps with the distribution of water since it's a surfactant but it's also based on old (from the 60's) technology. As far as wetting agents go, it's relatively inexpensive compared to the other ones but if you were to compare it to Tournament Ready you would notice a difference between them immediately. Tournament Ready liquid is like a syrup and if you get some on your hand, it has this film like consistency that is hard to wash off while Hydratain is like soapy water with some Humic in it. I can see how the TR would coat the soil particles and last longer then the Hydratain would. These are just my observations between the two.


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> Tide said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Camman595 said:
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have read, I get the impression that Hydratain takes the water vapor out of the soil and brings it to the roots to be used. And I get the impression that Tournament Ready helps get the water down to the root zone. Is there any benefit to using both products?
> 
> Do I misunderstand how these work?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm interested in knowing this as well. I was curious if there would be any benefit to combining Tournament Ready with something else to improve moisture management. Is Tournament Ready more of a moisture retainer or a moisture mover? Or both?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> From all the research I have done Tournament Ready is a moisture retainer but the other advantage is that it evenly distributes the water in the soil also. Now the thing with Hydratain is that it "pulls moisture" from the air to hydrate the soil just seems kind of hokey to me as how would something that is in the soil be able to pull moisture from the air to any extent that it would supplement irrigation or rain. I'm sure it helps with the distribution of water since it's a surfactant but it's also based on old (from the 60's) technology. As far as wetting agents go, it's relatively inexpensive compared to the other ones but if you were to compare it to Tournament Ready you would notice a difference between them immediately. Tournament Ready liquid is like a syrup and if you get some on your hand, it has this film like consistency that is hard to wash off while Hydratain is like soapy water with some Humic in it. I can see how the TR would coat the soil particles and last longer then the Hydratain would. These are just my observations between the two.
Click to expand...

Thanks, @Mightyquinn! Is there any benefit to combining a moisture 'mover' with Tournament Ready? Or would that be excessive?


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## Mightyquinn

Do you need to move water or keep water?


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> Do you need to move water or keep water?


I think I need both. My grass stays dry and the soil is extremely hard. I applied Tournament Ready about a week ago, so it may be a little too early to tell a difference.


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## Mightyquinn

Sounds like you need to hold water and not move water.


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## Tide

Mightyquinn said:


> Sounds like you need to hold water and not move water.


Good deal. I will keep using Tournament Ready and see how things go. Thank you!


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## ltsibley

@Mightyquinn what would you suggest for moving water?


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## Mightyquinn

ltsibley said:


> @Mightyquinn what would you suggest for moving water?


I have never needed or used it but I know other members have had some success with Penterra, just do a search for it and it should come up as I think there is a thread on it.


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## g-man

Cool season lawn in WI at fairway hoc.

https://twitter.com/PGRBill/status/1441378527715102727


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## Lawn Whisperer

Anyone with experience using  LESCO-Wet Plus Tablet Wetting Agent ? I was looking for Tournament Ready pellets, but Lesco Wet Plus is what my local SiteOne had in stock. Are both products comparable?


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## Mightyquinn

Lawn Whisperer said:


> Anyone with experience using  LESCO-Wet Plus Tablet Wetting Agent ? I was looking for Tournament Ready pellets, but Lesco Wet Plus is what my local SiteOne had in stock. Are both products comparable?


It may work just as good but it's hard to compare wetting agents as they all have their own unique formulas that they use. I would say if it's cost effective go ahead and buy some and try it out.


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## ceriano

craigdt said:


> Well I just got my shipment of Penterra today.
> 4 little 32oz jugs should be about a season's worth of applications.
> 
> If it does even 25% of what it claims, I'll be a happy camper.


Can I apply penterra with ortho hose end sprayer? What setting should I use?


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## Adrian82

Hello All,

I melted down some H2O Maximizer with the anticipation of rain tonight. Can I apply it and leave it on the soil for a few hours or overnight or do I need to water it immediately?


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## Mightyquinn

Adrian82 said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I melted down some H2O Maximizer with the anticipation of rain tonight. Can I apply it and leave it on the soil for a few hours or overnight or do I need to water it immediately?


I think you should be fine as long as it gets watered in the next morning and you apply it in the evening. If you leave it on the leaf blade for too long it can cause some yellowing but if you are getting some dew overnight you should be fine.


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## pjt

I wouldn't recommend an AIXR tip for applying Penterra since the air induction will generate bubbles and a bad spray pattern.


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## Mightyquinn

pjt said:


> I wouldn't recommend an AIXR tip for applying Penterra since the air induction will generate bubbles and a bad spray pattern.


Has this actually happened to you? I have sprayed Tournament Ready with those nozzles and never had an issue.


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## pjt

Mightyquinn said:


> Has this actually happened to you? I have sprayed Tournament Ready with those nozzles and never had an issue.


Yes. Sprayed Penterra a few days ago and the AIXR nozzle generated lots of little bubbles. The spray pattern was terrible. I had to stop after a couple minutes and swap it out for a TT11004-VP Turbo.


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## daniel3507

Penterra definitely makes a lot of bubbles. I used an Ortho hose end sprayer and had issues with that too. Tournament Ready pellets in the pellet gun has been so much easier


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## Tide

Does anyone have any experience using Aquatrols products? I have been testing Advantage+ this summer and it seems to be comparable in performance to Tournament Ready. I'm curious about Sixteen90 and Revolution. Sixteen90 is supposed to last up to 3 months, which sounds incredibly appealing.


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## frekwentflier

I started using Revolution based on gman's recommendation. I'm very happy with the results. This year I've only had a few tiny spots dry up, and I now realize those were because of debris underneath. Otherwise the rest of the yard is doing very well, and I believe Revolution is a big part of that. We had a very dry June & July here. July was expected but June was a surprise. All of my neighbors' yards went dormant, but mine stayed green throughout. We've had a wet August, so now everybody else is coming out of dormancy and mine is growing like crazy.

I prefer Revolution over the pellets because I can mix it in with other stuff and backpack spray it all at once. I personally think dragging around a hose on my 7500 sq ft is a PITA, so I prefer the backpack sprayer.

Revolution is not cheap, but I believe it's worth it and will definitely get more when I run out.


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## Tide

frekwentflier said:


> I started using Revolution based on gman's recommendation. I'm very happy with the results. This year I've only had a few tiny spots dry up, and I now realize those were because of debris underneath. Otherwise the rest of the yard is doing very well, and I believe Revolution is a big part of that. We had a very dry June & July here. July was expected but June was a surprise. All of my neighbors' yards went dormant, but mine stayed green throughout. We've had a wet August, so now everybody else is coming out of dormancy and mine is growing like crazy.
> 
> I prefer Revolution over the pellets because I can mix it in with other stuff and backpack spray it all at once. I personally think dragging around a hose on my 7500 sq ft is a PITA, so I prefer the backpack sprayer.
> 
> Revolution is not cheap, but I believe it's worth it and will definitely get more when I run out.


Thanks! What other stuff are you mixing with Revolution when you spray?


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## frekwentflier

I'll mix it with anything that is meant to go into the soil. I always put down some Humic/Fulvic acid and kelp with it. Sometimes I'll add Molasses (dethatcher). And every once in awhile I'll add some micronutrient mix to it.

I won't mix with foliar apps. PGR and FAS for example.

I keep my fungicide and insecticide apps separate as well, but they could probably be safely mixed in. I just never tried.


----------

