# Pre or post?



## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Was planning on throwing down some pre-e in a week or two. Looking at my lawn looks like I'm too late for that. Would I be correct in identifying these weeds as Poa Annua? If not/so what would be recommended in treating these weeds. 
Should I switch to a post-e? If anyone could give me a couple step guide to whipping it in to shape that would be great. We remodeled our deck and left several areas bare. Any help with that as well would be great. I have Bermuda living in Dallas Texas. 
Absolutely loving the amount of activity on this forum.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Definitely read the Bermuda Bible.

It's never too late for pre-e. Many of the weeds you see now are due to no pre-e app last fall. The upcoming spring pre-e app(s) will protect against spring and summer weeds like crabgrass.


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## thesouthernreelmower (Aug 28, 2018)

Definitely apply a pre emergent now.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

For that, BOTH.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

I would do pre-emergent, and I would wait until temps are warmer in Dallas before applying any post-emergent. Cold weather will incredibly slow the kill and could even fail completely, which would be a waste.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

I would do a pre emergent now and wait until the spring for a strong post emergent. Now if you want to just kill winter weeds a box store concentrate would do just fine now.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

I spread some Dithiopyr Sunday (1/27/2018) then watered it in. I'm going to wait until it warms up a bit before spreading some post emergent. Hard to gage the weather as today in Dallas it is around 32°, but is expecting to be 75° on Monday. I'm guessing the end of February - Mid March.

What are some recommended post emergents? I have read the BermBib just wanted to see if there were any favorites and preferred methods of application.

Another question. Do you professionals bag your clippings or leave them on the lawn?

Lastly, I was planning on doing a leveling project, but I think I am leaning toward just deweeding, and pushing some fert. and see if I can reclaim my lawn. What is everyone's opinion on that as well? Would deweeding and leveling be too much for the lawn to take on in one season?


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

CenlaLowell said:


> I would do a pre emergent now and wait until the spring for a strong post emergent. Now if you want to just kill winter weeds a box store concentrate would do just fine now.


Could that possibly hurt my Bermuda? I know it is dormant as of now, just curious. 
I do like the idea of getting rid of all of the current weeds. Would me just spreading some Dithiopyr have any affect on an additional herbicide?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Post emergent will really depending on what weeds you are targeting. Celsius and Sedgehammer or Certainty take care of pretty much everything I encounter, but I honestly don't get many breakthrough weeds.

I generally catch my clippings when my HOC is very low or when I expect a lot of clippings on any given cut. Last season as a whole I probably caught my clippings 50% of the time. It really comes down to personal preference.

You could level and take care of weeds in one season if you are up for the work. The weeds shouldn't be too bad. Getting on a good pre-e plan is key. Then attack everything you already have with the appropriate post emergent herbicides.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

lvlikeyv said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > I would do a pre emergent now and wait until the spring for a strong post emergent. Now if you want to just kill winter weeds a box store concentrate would do just fine now.
> ...


No Bermuda is a strong grass. Can handle just about any herbcide you throw at it.

No Dithiopyr, to my knowledge, won't have any effect on another herbcide.

Alot of people on here mix pre and post emergents, so you should not run into any problems doing that. I just sprayed roundup for lawns and Spetracide weed stop on my lawns. Next week it's prodiamine time. So if I have any trouble I will post again.


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## LowCountryCharleston (Jun 21, 2018)

I plan on doing an app of Prodiamine as my Pre-Em tomorrow but I do have some winter weeds that popped through. I see people will do a Pre and Post at the same time. But since my weeds are just here and there and spot spraying works fine. I don't see the need to do a blanket spray of Post Em. Can I do a spot spray and follow it up with the Prodiamine.

Thanks! My sense is Yes but want to be sure.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

LowCountryCharleston said:


> ...Can I do a spot spray and follow it up with the Prodiamine.
> 
> Thanks! My sense is Yes but want to be sure.


Yes. :thumbsup:


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## BakerGreenLawnMaker (Mar 13, 2018)




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## raymond (May 4, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> For that, BOTH.


 :lol:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

LowCountryCharleston said:


> I plan on doing an app of Prodiamine as my Pre-Em tomorrow but I do have some winter weeds that popped through. I see people will do a Pre and Post at the same time. But since my weeds are just here and there and spot spraying works fine. I don't see the need to do a blanket spray of Post Em. Can I do a spot spray and follow it up with the Prodiamine.
> 
> Thanks! My sense is Yes but want to be sure.


A lot of Post herbicides become Pre when blanket sprayed. Celsius, Dismiss, MSM, Monument, Image. The ones I know of that do not are Three Way and Speedzone.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

I just picked up some Spectracide. Going to wait another week or two before applying it even though its 65°. Rain and snow are projecting this week. (Texas weather right?) Checked the back and it stated it was safe on the Berm.

I can't find any of the herbicides mentioned in the forums (sledgehammer, Celsius...etc) at the big box stores. Are they only sold online? Anyone have experience with the Spectracide I bought?

Like I stated previously, I spread some granular dithiopyr last weekend for a pre e. I want to take care of the current winter weeds just for peice of mind and seeing what I'm working with come the growing season.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Sorry for the blurry photo above. Here is a better pic of the AI.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Majority of the products we recommend here are generally either found online or at a local landscape supply stores(SiteOne, Ewing Irrigation........). Lowe's and Home Depot do not carry products like these. These kind of products(Celsius, Sedgehammer.....) are generally more expensive upfront but in the long run are actually cheaper and work a lot better than the stuff you buy at the big box store.

The Spectracide you bought may work but can damage the bermuda as it is coming out of dormancy but by June it will be a thing of the past as the bermuda will have repaired itself.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Honestly, coming from a fellow dog owner, you need to find a different "plan" for your pup if you care about your lawn. I used to let mine out in the yard until I got sod that I discovered after the fact isn't at all tolerant of urine.

Just seeing that track worn down through it etc it's gonna be tough to make it look nice.

Also, many will disagree, but I personally don't like taking my dogs across the lawn to go walk them when there's lots of chems down. So if you're putting things down every month there's a day or two where you're washing dog paws etc.

For me, I had to choose between the convenience of not walking my dog, versus having a nice lawn. Just my $0.02, not trying to be a jerk.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

SCGrassMan said:


> For me, I had to choose between the convenience of not walking my dog, versus having a nice lawn. Just my $0.02, not trying to be a jerk.


No worries. I appreciate all of the advice and actually had similar concerns. We have a black lab mix that terrorizes the whole back yard. Sadly I've been thinking about only doing the basics to the back (Pre e in the fall and some fert in the summer) and using more advanced techniques on the front. (Pre/post, aeration, top dressing.) I would have to walk him 5 times a day to keep him off the grass. Anyone got any ideas on alternatives?

Ive been debating splitting the cost of a bottle of Celsius with my father (who has St. Augustine). One website recommends using a spreader surfactant with Celsius. What are everyone's thoughts with this?


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Yes, you will have to walk him 5 times a day 

Good for you, him, and the lawn.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Also, wanting to find an herbicide for both Bermuda and St.Augustine as stated above. 
Looks like Blindside and Celsius are the most common. Any thoughts on using one on both lawns? And which one would work better for both?


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I am a fan of combos. I don't know St Augustine too well for mixes but for mine I frequently use things like Dismiss, 2,4D, etc mixed together. I throw the kitchen sink at things at mid label rate


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## datcope (Oct 29, 2018)

Ware said:


> Post emergent will really depending on what weeds you are targeting. Celsius and Sedgehammer or Certainty take care of pretty much everything I encounter, but I honestly don't get many breakthrough weeds.


@Ware I am still planning put down a broad application of Prodiamine next week as my Pre-E to target Crabgrass. In the meantime, I have already noticed some clover and general weeds popping up. Am I reading this right in that I can do the Pre-E now and then spot treat with Celsius once the weather terms up (we are expecting a cold front with wind gusts later this week)?


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

@datcope you can spray them together or separate whatever is most convenient for you. Celsius is a slow killer even in hot temperatures so I'd expect a even slower kill if the temps are under 50°. I know it sounds weird but weeds die best when they are healthy and growing.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

lvlikeyv said:


> Also, wanting to find an herbicide for both Bermuda and St.Augustine as stated above.
> Looks like Blindside and Celsius are the most common. Any thoughts on using one on both lawns? And which one would work better for both?


I do not like Blindside. Contains Sulfentrazone. Which can be very damaging in hot weather or if applied with Surfactants. You will need a surfactant to get the most out of the Metsulfuron Methyl component of Blindside. I do like Celsius on St Augustine. At low to moderate rates, it is rather gentle. Another good product for St Augustine is Quicksilver(Carfentrazone). You may use this in hot weather and with surfactants on St Augustine without damage. I regularly combine this with either Celsius, Metsulfuron Methyl or else Certainty. I do have and use Sulfentrazone, but usage of this product is limited to the cooler part of the year and at the lowest label rates. Other issue with Blindside is that label rate of that product applies Sulfentrazone at a rate double of what I typically use.


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## datcope (Oct 29, 2018)

So I am thinking of using Celsius for my post-e. In looking at the label (attached) I am confused between the recommended doses...



In the 'restrictions' paragraph, it says to not use more than .17 ounces/M/year, so I would use .08 ounces/M in each semi-annual application. Lower down in the 'zone' paragraph, it states to use .057-.113/gallon/M. Can someone set me straight just as you did regarding the correct Prodiamine doses?


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## Art_Vandelay (Nov 20, 2018)

datcope said:


> So I am thinking of using Celsius for my post-e. In looking at the label (attached) I am confused between the recommended doses...
> 
> 
> 
> In the 'restrictions' paragraph, it says to not use more than .17 ounces/M/year, so I would use .08 ounces/M in each semi-annual application. Lower down in the 'zone' paragraph, it states to use .057-.113/gallon/M. Can someone set me straight just as you did regarding the correct Prodiamine doses?


Don't pay attention to the "zone". It's still lower than the max allowed per year.

Best practice is to identify your hardest to control weed and set the rate for that, whether that's low, medium, or high. Just can't do a med and high or two high doses.


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## datcope (Oct 29, 2018)

@Art_Vandelay thanks. So my plan will be to lay down .1 ounce/gallon of water/M both in the Spring and Fall. If I mix up 10 gallons to cover 10M, that will be 1 ounce per application meaning the 10 ounce bottle will last me 5 years...not bad!


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I think the trick with Celsius (or really any post-e) is to get on a good pre-e program so you don't have to worry about blanket spraying/annual max. Ideally, you will reach a point where you will only need to spot spray.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

Ware said:


> I think the trick with Celsius (or really any post-e) is to get on a good pre-e program so you don't have to worry about blanket spraying/annual max. Ideally, you will reach a point where you will only need to spot spray.


This.

And using the recommended herbicides you can forget having to read some 70 page weed id monstrosity thread.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> LowCountryCharleston said:
> 
> 
> > I plan on doing an app of Prodiamine as my Pre-Em tomorrow but I do have some winter weeds that popped through. I see people will do a Pre and Post at the same time. But since my weeds are just here and there and spot spraying works fine. I don't see the need to do a blanket spray of Post Em. Can I do a spot spray and follow it up with the Prodiamine.
> ...


@Greendoc I'm glad you mentioned this. I know you and I have talked about the soil residual of SU herbicides.

To everyone else, there are soil residuals for a substantial quantity of herbicides, which is listed on the label, often as a re-seed or replant interval.

Items with soil residual that aren't specifically pre's - Simazine, Tenacity, Fusilade/Ornamec, Triclopyr, Quinclorac, Monument, Revolver, Katana, Dismiss, Celsius, MSM, Image (imazaquin), Rimsulfuron, Negate, Sencor, and I'm sure many others.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Just got Celsius, sedgehammer, and prodiamine in the mail. (Bermuda triangle up in this b*#%@!)
My plan as of now is to wait another week or two as it looks like next week will be our last freeze. Scalp, thrown down some prodiamine, wait a couple of days then throw down the Celsius and sedgehammer. 
Question is: would putting all the herbicide down after the scalp be detrimental to the lawn?

Guru's, how would you approach this if you were in my shoes.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

@lvlikeyv I would hold off on the Sedgehammer unless you have sedge. I usually don't see any around here until later in the season. YMMV, of course.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

Ware said:


> @lvlikeyv I would hold off on the Sedgehammer unless you have sedge. I usually don't see any around here until later in the season. YMMV, of course.


Makes sense. You don't see any issues scalping first the laying down prodiamine and Celsius?


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

lvlikeyv said:


> laying down prodiamine and Celsius?


Lots of members have done this.


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## JBowen (Jan 16, 2018)

Soil temps in Dallas are currently in the mid 40's ... I got temp readings of 45 and 46 degrees today. Im gonna wait til 52 degrees to lay down Prodiamine.


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## lvlikeyv (Jan 26, 2019)

JBowen said:


> Soil temps in Dallas are currently in the mid 40's ... I got temp readings of 45 and 46 degrees today. Im gonna wait til 52 degrees to lay down Prodiamine.


Looks like that should be next week or soon thereafter.

Also looks like we're gonna have a good amount of rain. 
I know prodiamine needs to be watered in. How much rain is too much?


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

Flowing water over the surface is too much. "Regular" rain is fine.


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