# PRG Questions, A LOT.



## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

I've been reading the threads on the site for about a week now a decided to jump on. Really thrilled with all the info you guys have and the passion for a perfect lawn. This past winter I installed 5,000 sq ft of perennial rye (cheated and laid sod). I wanted to do a 50/50 rye, blue grass mix or even a 90/10 but the sod company was out of both until April and I needed lawn down before my entire property turned into a mud pit for the winter. I am located near Sacramento, CA where it get's really hot in the summer with ZERO rain from late May to late September. With that said below are a few of the many questions I have:

1. How low can I cut the PRG? (I'm really interested in that new Swardsman reel mower and love the baseball field look)
2. Can I over seed with a KBG? If so when? It seems like everyone does the opposite, lay KBG and over seed with PRG.
3. Should I wait to sand and level in the fall or can I do it early spring?
4. Verticut, de-thatch, Aerorate???

I've seen a lot of really nice lawns on this site and look forward to your suggestions.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

If you haven't already, check out Ware's Winter Overseeding Project
to see how low he's been cutting his p rye grass.

Welcome to the forum by the way. I'm sure others will chime in on your other questions.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

rrmiller32 said:


> 1. How low can I cut the PRG? (I'm really interested in that new Swardsman reel mower and love the baseball field look)
> 2. Can I over seed with a KBG? If so when? It seems like everyone does the opposite, lay KBG and over seed with PRG.
> 3. Should I wait to sand and level in the fall or can I do it early spring?
> 4. Verticut, de-thatch, Aerorate???
> ...


1. It could go quite low, but as you go lower the risks/challenges goes higher. The main one for you is irrigation. With zero rain, you will need an irrigation system. 
2. KBG takes a long time (+3 weeks) to germinate/establish. The PRG will outgrow/shadow the new KBG and it wont let it establish (survival of the fittest). You can overseed a kbg with PRG since PRG takes like a week to grow.
3. level when you know the lawn has enough time to recover. Early spring is doable.
4. ?

One of the first things I suggest is doing a soil test to see what needs fixing.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

1. I have KBG PRG mix. I cut mine at .625 which is 5/8". I do not know that I would go much lower than that. I may try .500 but that is probably the lowest I would ever go. The lower you go the more often you have to mow which can be both a good and bad thing. .750 looks really nice and is really a good happy medium.

2. I think you are going to have a tough time over seeding the KBG. It probably can be done but the KBG takes so long to germinate and waiting for it to germinate while needing to mow will cause problems because you will constantly be disturbing the soil and the KBG seeds need to sit for a minute and be left alone. I would say to give it a shot in a test plot. I seeded the KBG and had it growing for about 2 years before I over seeded with the PRG.

3. Sand whenever the grass is growing very vigorously. That would be spring or fall. It takes some time to recover and grow through the sand. Do not go too heavy or it will not recover at all because the sand pretty much suffocates it from sunlight. You have to have blades showing through the sand to get some sun. I have areas in my lawn that never recovered from sanding fall of 2017. These areas will recover in the spring with fert, time, and KBG. The good thing about PRG is that its cheap and easy to over seed and grows quickly.

4. Yes. Your going to have to get the thatch out if you want to go low. Thin it out big time with verticutter/slice seeder or thatch machine. Get it good and thin and then throw some more PRG seed down. One down side of PRG is the it does not creep and fill in. Seed is fairly inexpensive so keep putting it down.

See some of my videos.

I recommend getting a heavy greens mower. They flatten out the lawn over time and it might be easier to find a mechanic to sharpen it for you and for less coin.

Bottom line is that your lawn will be as nice as you want it to be. It all depends on what you are willing put into it with your time and effort.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks for the quick replies guys. Sounds like .75 to 1.00" will be good.
I think I'll just keep with consistent reseeding of PRG. Sounds like KBG is going to be a dead end street. I'll try my first attempt at leveling come middle or March
Connor are you saying the Swardman is not heavy enough, or any greens mower will work? I like the cartridge system they have and the sharpening/bedknife replace service they offer.

I have a solid irrigation system (Hunter MP rotators) on timers with rain sensors. I will just need to make sure the proper amount of water is put out at the right time.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I honestly have to say that I do not know much, if anything, about the Swardman. I do not now know heavy it is.

I am suggesting a Toro, John Deere because they are readily available and the parts are readily available to you. They are common and finding someone local to you will be a lot easier for you if you want to have them work on it for you or grind your reel, etc. The Toro and JD professional mowers and are tried and true. They have been used on golf courses for years and years and work well.

I am pretty sure the swardman has the rear roller. One thing I will say for sure is make sure you get a mower with a rear roller on it. It will flatten your lawn over time and make awesome stripes.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

rrmiller32 said:


> Thanks for the quick replies guys. Sounds like .75 to 1.00" will be good.
> I think I'll just keep with consistent reseeding of PRG. Sounds like KBG is going to be a dead end street. I'll try my first attempt at leveling come middle or March
> Connor are you saying the Swardman is not heavy enough, or any greens mower will work? I like the cartridge system they have and the sharpening/bedknife replace service they offer.
> 
> I have a solid irrigation system (Hunter MP rotators) on timers with rain sensors. I will just need to make sure the proper amount of water is put out at the right time.


@Ware is using a Swardman reel mower on PRG.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

zeus201 said:


> @Ware is using a Swardman reel mower on PRG.


I am, but haven't had much to cut - it has been unseasonably cold here and the PRG hasn't grown much since late December. My bermuda will be waking up soon, so unfortunately it will be lights out for my PRG project before too long.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

I read on post somewhere here where a guy bought a GM1000 and returned it the next day because it was too much for him and went with a Tru-cut I believe. Are the greens mowers really fast or hard to handle? I have a big back lawn area but the front has some small areas that need a some navigation. I'm not opposed to spending a little more money the first time then buying cheap 3 different times.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Being a first-time reel mower owner, the Flex 2100 greens mower that I got for my lawn moves at a pretty brisk pace, and it has the catcher on the front. I wish I could slow it down a bit. The less-expensive options, like the Cal Trimmer, Swardman that is being bandied about and Tru Cut are all solid options for the lot size that you have.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

You can slow down the Toro Grennsmaster mowers a lot. I keep mine at full bore all the time because I have wide open areas.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> You can slow down the Toro Grennsmaster mowers a lot...


+1, I often run at low throttle.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

It looks like the Toro and JD have a max HOC of 7/8". I know you guys go lower than this no problem. Will PRG make it through the hot summer at that height. I don't mind spending a little extra time to keep it green but don't have endless hours to hand water or take soil samples every week.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

A Toro GM1000 goes up to 1". A GM1600 goes to 1.25".

I think the JD 220E will go up to ~1.4".


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

John Deere 220-E goes to 1.42mm with a 2in front roller

With a 3in front roller (and not groomer attached), it could go to 1.80mm. There will be a mismatch between the FOC and HOC.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

My prg does fine in the summer. I also have only like 2 or so days in the 90s. I guess you'll find out. Worse case let it grow out a bit. I'm excited to see how you fare.

A short cut lawn takes way more time than a 3 inch lawn.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

Ok, good to know. Only place I can find either of the JD or Toros is eBay ranging from$700-$1,900.
Our average temp here in the summer is low 90's with 10-20 days reaching 100+
Most of the lawn is growing well already, been warmer than usual all month. Slowly bringing it down with the rotary mower. It looks really good for February. I've had a couple people ask me if it was real grass.
Hoping to level with sand late March once the entire lawn wakes up then bring down with a reel. It's going to be a whole new experience dropping below 2"


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Look in craiglist and facebook market place. Search for reel, greens, 220, toro, etc.

This is an option, but shipping cost would be high. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1795


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Here are some Online Sources for Used Greensmowers. Many of them will palletize and ship a mower LTL to a nearby terminal (cheapest) or with lift-gate service to your driveway.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

There a few McClane mowers here and there on Craigslist but no one uses reel mowers around here. I'm gonna get hammered on shipping regardless of where I buy I think. 
I've been liking the JD 220 but can someone tell what the letter at the end means? A, B, E, SL????

I emailed a guy on eBay regarding a JD 220SL and he said the max HOC was 2" followed by "I think" not super reassuring informing.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

The 220 A/B/C/SL are basically the same mower, just different years:



Pete1313 said:


> They are the evolution of the JD greensmower.
> The 220A was made from 1997-2002,
> The 220B from 2002-2006,
> The 220C from 2007-2010, and
> ...


The 220E is a different animal in that it uses the QA5 floating head and a DC motor to drive the reel.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

rrmiller32 said:


> I emailed a guy on eBay regarding a JD 220SL and he said the max HOC was 2" followed by "I think" not super reassuring informing.


On a 220SL with a 2" front roller, the max HOC is 7/8" with the roller in the full outward position and 1 1/16" with the roller in the full inward position. That is with a brand new reel. If the reel is worn down the HOC will be higher.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

That makes a lot more sense. 2" seemed WAY too high. 
Ware thanks for the clarification on the model letters.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

It's about time for the pre-emergent. I've notices a few spots of what I'm assuming is POA. Is it OK to put down the pre-e then pull the POA and spot seed or should I pull and seed before?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

PreM and seed don't go together. PreM will prevent the seeds from developing.

I would preM and pull. Normally the holes from pulling the POA are small and get covered by the rest of the grass once it starts growing.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

OK. I wasn't sure if when pulling out the POA it would break the pre-m barrier and allow seeding in that area.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

Pre-m is down. Spring fertilizer is about two weeks away. I'm wanting to sand and level. Should I fertilize first and let the lawn truly wake up then sand, or sand first then fertilize once it grows through?


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Wait until it's growing as vigorously as possible. That way it will grow through the sand. You could fert right before or after sand.


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

Thanks. I think I'll fertilize first. I have a few spots already that are super green and growing like crazy. If I can get the whole lawn growning that way the sand will be grown through very fast


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## rrmiller32 (Feb 20, 2018)

First mow to bring the lawn down before sanding is done. HOC is 2" Will be 3-4 more mows to bring it down enough for leveling. I have noticed that the lawn is a little splotchy. It's all green and growing well but its a mix of really dark green and a normal green? The front lawn looks good but the back needs something. Any suggestions?
(BTW that's my unfinished shop in the background, not a really close new neighbor)


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