# Spammage KOH experiment



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Moving the topics from the KOH experiment into one thread. This was trying to simulate air-8

Summary
-soil has a high pH
-high calcium in the soil (texas)
-Humic DG used at 2lbs/ksqft (as labeled for turf so medium rate), 
-KOH used at 1oz (dry)/ksqft one week after Humic DG and ~1.5months later

Results:
Water ponds with 0.25in of rain.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Why would you want to add something that can disperse your clay particles? It makes 0 sense.


This was my experience. My soil has been improving steadily for years, and with just two apps of KOH, the soil structure is virtually wrecked and a .25" rain creates ponding again. I'm sure there are situations where this could be a good thing, but I would tell anyone else in Texas (DFW or South of DFW at least) to stay away from this.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Spammage said:


> This was my experience. My soil has been improving steadily for years, and with just two apps of KOH, the soil structure is virtually wrecked and a .25" rain creates ponding again. I'm sure there are situations where this could be a good thing, but I would tell anyone else in Texas (DFW or South of DFW at least) to stay away from this.


Soil structure virtually wrecked and now ponds? That is not good.

Why are there such disparate results from the same KOH-humic products? Do the soils of the people who had good results (reduced ponding, deeper rooting) differ from the soils that had negative effects like yours? These are important things we need to figure out.

What kind of soil do you have, and what are its characteristics? We need to keep data about this stuff, and the results, incase these products end up being contraindicated in certain soils based on members' results. Maybe we should keep a spreadsheet that organizes the results by soil characteristics.

Also, how do you anticipate getting the soil structure to improve again? And do you know what changed in the soil after the KOH (do you have soil testing results yet)?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Green said:


> Spammage said:
> 
> 
> > This was my experience. My soil has been improving steadily for years, and with just two apps of KOH, the soil structure is virtually wrecked and a .25" rain creates ponding again. I'm sure there are situations where this could be a good thing, but I would tell anyone else in Texas (DFW or South of DFW at least) to stay away from this.
> ...


I have a silty calcareous clay soil. The pH is over 7.5, irrigation water is high pH and has high bicarbonates, Ca is off the charts due to the limestone bed. When I first got my proplugger, it wasn't even useable because the soil will stick to the inside of the tube, often requiring me to destroy the plug in an effort to remove it. Mechanical aeration punches holes in the soil for the same reason. 
I swear you could use this shit to make pottery.

I haven't had the soil tested for several years, because honestly, even small improvements weren't likely. I bought into the wizards use of SLS, and using it caused the soil to deteriorate more with each app. Therefore, I thought KOH was a risk, but never could have anticipated this result.

As far as correction, I'm not even sure yet. I will have to figure that out.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Spammage said:


> Green said:
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> > Spammage said:
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Get your pH and bicarbonates down. I suggest 14 day applications of Citric Acid at 1 lb per 1000 sq ft. Citric readily forms a solution of 4 lb per gallon.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Spammage How much KOH did you apply?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> @Spammage How much KOH did you apply?


I tried to base my calculations on the air8 formula. I don't remember the exact figure my math showed, but I rounded up slightly to 1oz per 1000sf. Two apps were put down.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Spammage said:


> Ridgerunner said:
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> > @Spammage How much KOH did you apply?
> ...


So you applied HumicDG at 200lbs/A? what rate?

Followed by 2 apps of 1oz KOH/M?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> Spammage said:
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> > Ridgerunner said:
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HumicDG at 2lbs/1000 (as labeled for turf so medium rate), followed by two apps of KOH at 1 oz dry weight/1000 about 1 week and 1.5-2 months later.

@g-man I never intended to hijack this thread, if you want, isolate what you can into another thread.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Spammage Moved it all here. Added a summary post at the top.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Spammage said:


> thegrassfactor said:
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Do you have any of the KOH flake left?

I would take a measured amount of 1000sqft of humic dg and add in 1000sqft of your application concentration of KOH and mix them in a jar to monitor the interaction between the two.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> Spammage said:
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> > thegrassfactor said:
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I do. I don't have any untreated soil, so I can't try that experiment, but I can do a jar test of just the two.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Spammage said:


> thegrassfactor said:
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> > Spammage said:
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If you could try that and report results. Wondering if there's an interaction between leonardite, binders, dispersing agents, etc and KOH that would cause jelly or hydrophobic layers to form, exaggerating the results you experienced.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

What about soil from the flower beds/mulch area? (Neighbor yard?) We are talking about a cup or so of soil.

Koh + soil
Humci dg + Koh + soil
Humic dg + koh


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Love it.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

@Spammage How much water did you use to spray it over 1000 sq feet?


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> @Spammage How much water did you use to spray it over 1000 sq feet?


Hose end set to 2 oz, and sprayed in two directions. Sprayed in the evening, and watered in early morning with another 1/2".


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Extrapolations like this are certainly not conclusive and are fraught with untested assumption, but FWIW: 
The concentration of K2O used for HA/FA acid separation from a Humic matter source is 0.25 M per L. It's applied at the rate of about 0.15 grams of K2O per gram of source substance. A thousand sq ft layer 1/64" thick of silt loam soil weighs approximately 49,230 grams. If you sprayed 2 ounces of K2O diluted in only 2 gallons of water over 1000 square feet, you applied K2O at the rate of .0012 grams of K2O/gram of soil. I wouldn't expect that rate of application to have much effect and you certainly diluted it much more significantly than at 2 gallons and dispersed it much more deeply than just the top 1.64 of an inch of soil. I'd look elsewhere for causation. As mentioned before, and although at the rate applied I doubt it, it might be informative to see what interaction occurs between K2O and DG.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

@Ridgerunner is your name Will Hunting by chance?? :lol:

Sorry, forgot to add that I have done a little testing and got no weird reaction with the HumicDG and KOH.

I know that what you are saying is logical (not all the crazy math, but the fact that so little shouldn't have had this effect), but apps of SLS at 2 oz/1000 did the same thing.

I just finished scalping this evening, and even my wife said she felt like she was walking on a marshmallow. This soil is just the devil's gift to lawn care.

I appreciate all the thoughts and effort you guys ( @thegrassfactor , @Greendoc @g-man and anyone else who might have been involved). I am confident that I can get the soil workable again, because I did it before - just takes a little time. I will try the citric acid to see if that works faster than what I did previously (and it's probably good to provide pH assistance either way).

I knew there was risk involved with the KOH, but thought it was worth a try. I also realize that I shouldn't caution anyone away from air8. Their formula may somehow work more synergistically than my experiment.

If anyone does have other suggestions, please let me know, just promise me that you won't lose any sleep over it. As you can tell, I'm up for trying just about anything at least once - well, at least when it comes to the yard...:nod:


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