# Can't find Kentucky Bluegrass in Toronto, Canada



## Devil

Hey guys,

So I'm getting ready for overseeding in late August/September (and slightly OT but put down some fertilizer in October). Except I'm not a big proponent of "mixes" (I never understood why anyone would want a mix of different looking grass in their lawn)

I'm looking to overseed with Kentucky Bluegrass, preferably with 0% weed and 0% any other type of grass. Except I'm unable to find this elusive seed.

This summer so far has seen crabgrass, especially late June. And throughout summer there have been patches of clover. Early summer I see dandelions, but they're here and there and I can pull them out. But the crabgrass and clover have been annoying.

So instead of going to war, I'm looking to thicken the lawn with more KB and when summer 2019 rolls in, I'll put down some pre-emerg and be happy with it all.

Any suggestions where I can find high quality KB seed here in Toronto? (or even online that delivers). I got about 1055 sq ft of backyard, and about 60 sq ft of front yard to cover.


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## DT1986

https://www.oscseeds.com/ Waterloo , ON.
https://www.seedsuperstore.com Buffalo, NYwill ship to Canada. Call them and speak to Drew.

Mixes produce an overall healthy lawn as diseases that affect some species will not harm others. When you seed a lawn from scratch quick germinating varieties like perennial rye grass produce a quick green up and shelter to slower germinating varieties like KBG.

KBG takes 3 to 4 weeks to germinate and another 4 to 6 weeks to mature. You are staring to over seed at an optimal time as the these are cool season grasses and prefer a cool climate to thrive. But please ensure the seed bed is moist during the germination period.

Newer cultivars of KBG are better drought tolerant and tolerate mowing at lower heights (if that's your thing).

KBG and PRG grow well together and are indistinguishable to the average person. I prefer PRG so fill in bare spots because it germinates quicker. I will overseed with KBG in the fall which then has a higher success rate of growing. Last year I overseeded too late in the fall and the KBGv seedlings did not survive with Winter. If you want 100% KBG, you should consider sodding.


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## SNOWBOB11

There's nothing wrong with having a mix of grass types in your lawn. Some of the best lawns you see on the forum are more than just KBG. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with wanting only KBG either. I bought my bewitched KBG from www.brettyoung.ca. I don't believe they sell in less than 50lb bags though. You can check www.speareseeds.ca. I believe they have elite cultivar varieties. Other than that you can go to a sod farm and see if they will sell you the bluegrass they use to grow there sod.

I wouldn't seed as late as September especially with KBG. Try more for mid August.


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## jurkewycmi

https://qualityseeds.ca/turf

spoke with them over email and they said they may be able to offer certain varieties in 10kg.


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## Sinclair

@jurkewycmi I sent a reply to your PM yesterday, but it is stuck in my outbox.


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## Devil

DT1986 said:


> https://www.oscseeds.com/ Waterloo , ON.
> https://www.seedsuperstore.com Buffalo, NYwill ship to Canada. Call them and speak to Drew.
> 
> Mixes produce an overall healthy lawn as diseases that affect some species will not harm others. When you seed a lawn from scratch quick germinating varieties like perennial rye grass produce a quick green up and shelter to slower germinating varieties like KBG.
> 
> KBG takes 3 to 4 weeks to germinate and another 4 to 6 weeks to mature. You are staring to over seed at an optimal time as the these are cool season grasses and prefer a cool climate to thrive. But please ensure the seed bed is moist during the germination period.
> 
> Newer cultivars of KBG are better drought tolerant and tolerate mowing at lower heights (if that's your thing).
> 
> KBG and PRG grow well together and are indistinguishable to the average person. I prefer PRG so fill in bare spots because it germinates quicker. I will overseed with KBG in the fall which then has a higher success rate of growing. Last year I overseeded too late in the fall and the KBGv seedlings did not survive with Winter. If you want 100% KBG, you should consider sodding.


Thanks for the explanation! Very much appreciated. I especially like your idea of filling in bare spots with PRG. I have a Scott's bag of that from last year just sitting in the shed, and ended up never using it due to my thing about having only KBG. But I guess I will begin to...

The reason I mentioned I want just KBG is because:


I like the grass to grow upward. I noticed my neighbour who seems to have a lot of mix that it grows in all directions, especially downward. And I hear KBG grows straight up.
I prefer to mow low (golf course type), but I haven't been able to because it ends up browning. So I was told when the lawn is thick with KBG, I'd be able to go low.



SNOWBOB11 said:


> There's nothing wrong with having a mix of grass types in your lawn. Some of the best lawns you see on the forum are more than just KBG. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with wanting only KBG either. I bought my bewitched KBG from www.brettyoung.ca. I don't believe they sell in less than 50lb bags though. You can check www.speareseeds.ca. I believe they have elite cultivar varieties. Other than that you can go to a sod farm and see if they will sell you the bluegrass they use to grow there sod.
> 
> I wouldn't seed as late as September especially with KBG. Try more for mid August.


Thanks soo much for the suggestion of mid August. I wasn't a 100% sure from reading all the time (I'm a relative newb) but found a lot of mention of September so I ended up going with it. Especially considering we've had bouts of real hard sun this summer in Toronto.

I'll do mid August per your suggestion then. Also makes sense to do then because what DTI1986 said about slow KBG germination.



jurkewycmi said:


> https://qualityseeds.ca/turf
> 
> spoke with them over email and they said they may be able to offer certain varieties in 10kg.


Thank you for checking! According to this Lowe's grass seed calculator, it seems I won't need more than 3kg lol

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Based on all the expert opinion, I think I'm ok with going with a mix of KBG (70) + PRG (30). Now all I gotta do is actually find such a seed mix less than 3 kg AND one that could ship it.

Does anyone have any links to this? I'm ok with it being mixed with some fertilizer too especially considering that's the next thing I need to do after overseeding and also something I have no idea about.

I just want Summer 2019 to be a blockbuster with a thick, green, low cut lawn 

Thanks so much again gang!


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## Harts

You should also consider feeding your existing KBG lots of N this fall to help it spread and thicken up instead of overseeding. A lot of members on here would warn against overseeding with KBG because of the long germination period and need to keep your existing grass cut low to allow sun, air and water get to the new seedlings.


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## jurkewycmi

Funny you are looking for a 70/30 blend, thats what I have settled on for my overseed this fall.

https://www.manderley.com/shop/manderley-less-water-seed-ottawa/

The TWCA culitvars are NTEP tested elite seed varieties http://www.tgwca.org/list-of-qualified-products.html and you can purchase online in 1 kg, 4.5 kg, 11kg, 22kg. Shipping looks to be about 25-30 to Toronto.

Best of luck


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## Devil

Harts said:


> You should also consider feeding your existing KBG lots of N this fall to help it spread and thicken up instead of overseeding. A lot of members on here would warn against overseeding with KBG because of the long germination period and need to keep your existing grass cut low to allow sun, air and water get to the new seedlings.


Yeah here's the plan:
- *Backyard (sodded last summer by KBG):* Cut down to maybe 2" and overseed
-*Frontyard (inherited from previous owner, not sure what kinds of grass but I can visibly see 3-4 different types):* Cut down to 2" and overseed

Put down some dark compost top soil, overseed and water.
My sprinkler is timed, so I can water for about 30 mins at 5am, and then 10 minutes throughout the day every 4 hours to keep the soil moist.

Also, this CIL Fall Lawn Fertilizer is what I'm thinking of dropping sometime in October. Think it's good? I think by mid October the overseeding process would have completed and I might end up seeing a good lawn. Even though the pesky crabgrass will still hang around from the current lawn.



jurkewycmi said:


> Funny you are looking for a 70/30 blend, thats what I have settled on for my overseed this fall.
> 
> https://www.manderley.com/shop/manderley-less-water-seed-ottawa/
> 
> The TWCA culitvars are NTEP tested elite seed varieties http://www.tgwca.org/list-of-qualified-products.html and you can purchase online in 1 kg, 4.5 kg, 11kg, 22kg. Shipping looks to be about 25-30 to Toronto.
> 
> Best of luck


Thanks man!!

But bad news, Manderley doesn't deliver to Toronto apparently. Even called them. Looked to see if they sell somewhere in stores in Toronto, nada. 

Tried googling like hell too lol


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## Harts

General Seed Company has a KBG blend and is sold at different garden centres. There is a place near me in Mississauga that sells it in smaller bags. I have no idea what kind of KBG is in it, if there is any weed crop etc. Just an option to look at.

But I think to ensure quality seed, you will probably need to buy a larger bag and pay a lot more by buying it through a reputable source. Most people on here would justify paying the higher cost to ensure quality seed. You are already putting money and a lot of effort into this project. You don't want to see it get undone by poor seed quality and have to do this process all over again next year.

Also, KBG takes time to fully establish and look good. From what I read on here, it will look really good a year after seed down and even better in years 2, 3 ++++.

I would also look into getting a pre-emergent down sometime next Spring. Not sure if you will have time to get an app down this Fall to help control the crabgrass next year.

As for the fert app this Fall, I think any fert will do. If you haven't already, take a look at the Cool Season Lawn guide on here - more specifically the Fall N Blitz. Some of it won't apply to you this year because you order overseeding, but there is some good info and it was just updated within the last few weeks. You can start spoon feeding fert sooner than October if you wanted. Check out the Cool Season Lawn Journals section and see what others have done.


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## Devil

Harts said:


> General Seed Company has a KBG blend and is sold at different garden centres. There is a place near me in Mississauga that sells it in smaller bags. I have no idea what kind of KBG is in it, if there is any weed crop etc. Just an option to look at.


Thankfully they sell at a nursery near me!
Also I found these two at Canadian Tire that are similar blends with great reviews

They're both by Scotts. Any one of these should do, right?
CT is way closer than the nursery lol



Harts said:


> But I think to ensure quality seed, you will probably need to buy a larger bag and pay a lot more by buying it through a reputable source. Most people on here would justify paying the higher cost to ensure quality seed. You are already putting money and a lot of effort into this project. You don't want to see it get undone by poor seed quality and have to do this process all over again next year.


What are your thoughts on Scotts? Are they premium enough? I'll buy like 3kg, even though apparently 1.2kgs should be enough for me 1200 sq ft.



Harts said:


> Also, KBG takes time to fully establish and look good. From what I read on here, it will look really good a year after seed down and even better in years 2, 3 ++++.


Yup, seen that in the backyard sod. It's so so nice. This is why I want to go KBG heavy.



Harts said:


> I would also look into getting a pre-emergent down sometime next Spring. Not sure if you will have time to get an app down this Fall to help control the crabgrass next year.


Yup, that's my next task once I'm done with the fall overseeding and Nitrogening. I searched for pre-emergent on CT website and couldn't find any. Maybe they appear around the end of winter.



Harts said:


> As for the fert app this Fall, I think any fert will do. If you haven't already, take a look at the Cool Season Lawn guide on here - more specifically the Fall N Blitz. Some of it won't apply to you this year because you order overseeding, but there is some good info and it was just updated within the last few weeks. You can start spoon feeding fert sooner than October if you wanted. Check out the Cool Season Lawn Journals section and see what others have done.


I'll probably use the one the Nitrogen fertilizer I showed in the link earlier. I read the cool season lawn guide a couple times, but with the difference in location, and usage of fahrenheit got me all confused and I became stupid. Especially when I read the part about urea and stuff, lol.


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## Harts

> What are your thoughts on Scotts? Are they premium enough? I'll buy like 3kg, even though apparently 1.2kgs should be enough for me 1200 sq ft.


The problem with Scott's seed is that it contains a lot of coating and filler. You won't be getting as much actual seed in the bag as you would from say Brett Young or Seed Superstore. You will end up paying more money and get more seed than you need, but the quality will be much higher and not contain any weed seed.



> Yup, that's my next task once I'm done with the fall overseeding and Nitrogening. I searched for pre-emergent on CT website and couldn't find any. Maybe they appear around the end of winter.


You won't find pre emergents in Canada. Don't waste your time looking. For that matter you won't find a lot of what people on here suggest - Pre-ems such as prodiamine and dithiopyr, tenacity, quinclorac, weed killers with dicamba and 2,4d or triclopyr as the active ingredient. You won't find RGS, PGR or even blue marking dye in Canada either. These are all banned by the Ontario government. The gist of it is most everything has been registered with the Federal Goverment. However, each Province has the ability to ban any such products it chooses. Unfortunately for us, our provincial government is very strict and has banned just about everything. The Weed B Gon you find at CT or any other big box store uses chelated iron as the active ingredient. It's good but not as effective as the formulas you get in the US.

A lot of us Canadians go to Seed World USA for these products. They ship to Canada. It can be quite costly so it's best to buy a few things to make the shipping more economical.

Here is where you need to go to buy products you won't find in ON:

RoundUp Concentrate & Ortho Weed B Gon Concentrate (with US ingredients) - lawnproducts.ca

Anything else mentioned above: Seed World USA


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## Harts

Also, do a quick search on this forum for "Canadian Alternatives to Milo" and "The Great Canadian Lawn Care Rant."

Lots of good information. We have all been where you are and done a ton of research already.

Sorry, I'm too lazy to actually post the links! I need to get back to work!


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## g-man

@Devil Dont waste money with a kbg overseed into a kbg lawn. Just feed it and it will grow and spread.


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## Devil

Harts said:


> What are your thoughts on Scotts? Are they premium enough? I'll buy like 3kg, even though apparently 1.2kgs should be enough for me 1200 sq ft.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem with Scott's seed is that it contains a lot of coating and filler. You won't be getting as much actual seed in the bag as you would from say Brett Young or Seed Superstore. You will end up paying more money and get more seed than you need, but the quality will be much higher and not contain any weed seed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, that's my next task once I'm done with the fall overseeding and Nitrogening. I searched for pre-emergent on CT website and couldn't find any. Maybe they appear around the end of winter.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You won't find pre emergents in Canada. Don't waste your time looking. For that matter you won't find a lot of what people on here suggest - Pre-ems such as prodiamine and dithiopyr, tenacity, quinclorac, weed killers with dicamba and 2,4d or triclopyr as the active ingredient. You won't find RGS, PGR or even blue marking dye in Canada either. These are all banned by the Ontario government. The gist of it is most everything has been registered with the Federal Goverment. However, each Province has the ability to ban any such products it chooses. Unfortunately for us, our provincial government is very strict and has banned just about everything. The Weed B Gon you find at CT or any other big box store uses chelated iron as the active ingredient. It's good but not as effective as the formulas you get in the US.
> 
> A lot of us Canadians go to Seed World USA for these products. They ship to Canada. It can be quite costly so it's best to buy a few things to make the shipping more economical.
> 
> Here is where you need to go to buy products you won't find in ON:
> 
> RoundUp Concentrate & Ortho Weed B Gon Concentrate (with US ingredients) - lawnproducts.ca
> 
> Anything else mentioned above: Seed World USA
Click to expand...

Whoa, thanks for these links man!!!

I'm thinking I'll get RoundUp Concentrate for pre-emerg (because it talks about going after crabgrass unlike Ortho) but wouldn't that mean the grass will die too since it's non-selective?

And yesss, I'm gonna get this KBG from SeedWorld and not get the Scotts variety per the above suggestion.



Harts said:


> Also, do a quick search on this forum for "Canadian Alternatives to Milo" and "The Great Canadian Lawn Care Rant."
> 
> Lots of good information. We have all been where you are and done a ton of research already.
> 
> Sorry, I'm too lazy to actually post the links! I need to get back to work!


Haha yes saw that and that's when I realized why most of the "Cool Season Grass Guide" wouldn't work for me here in Toronto. Thanks!



g-man said:


> @Devil Dont waste money with a kbg overseed into a kbg lawn. Just feed it and it will grow and spread.


I hear you, but because I'm a newbie when someone says "feed", I gotta go on a wild goose chase of finding a locally-sourced feeder of some kind and the language used here in Toronto only makes sense to the pros. If you don't mind, and can give me a name of a feed, I can try to see if I can find the feeds in the stores that Harts mentioned above. And I'll do that instead.

I'd much rather not go overseed the backyard (which is all KBG sod) and save myself all the work and just drop the feed instead.


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## g-man

By feed I mean, provide it nitrogen so it grows. We normally do this in the fall.

We call it Nitrogen blitz


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## Sinclair

@Devil

Go to a TSC store or any farm/feed supply and buy a bag of 46-0-0 Urea. It's the cheapest option for nitrogen.

We are going to start pumping up the nitrogen in another month or so. We'll all be on here to help you along.


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## Harts

No problem. Trust me, I spent hours searching. Then I found this place.

RoundUp isn't a pre-emergent. It's for killing everything in it's path and should only be used when taking on a reno.

I second @Sinclair . Go to TSC (not sure where in the GTA you are) and get Urea. Home Hardware also sells an organic fert 9-2-2. It's more expensive than Urea but has phosphorous and potassium as well.

Don't be too dismissive of the Cool Season Guide. Folks in the Northeast (New York, Mass, NJ, Michigan etc) all have the same or similar weather patterns we do - in fact you could argue they have a much harsher winter than some of us in ON do. Yes, the Americans use different fertilizers but the stuff available to us here is just as good and serves the same purpose. There isn't anything in that guide that we can't apply here.


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## Harts

@Sinclair you off our barn yard stuff now? I've got on bag left then I might try the Bio Solid stuff from Brett Young.


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## Sinclair

I just finished my bag.

Going to let the lawn chill until the end of August then get on the urea program.


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## g-man

I think you guys could start in two weeks (15aug). I normally start then (weather dependent). I think you could start with Milo now if you want.


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## SNOWBOB11

Yes, I'm going to start dropping weekly urea mid August. Lots of filling in and thickening up to do.


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## Devil

g-man said:


> By feed I mean, provide it nitrogen so it grows. We normally do this in the fall.
> 
> We call it Nitrogen blitz


Ahhh, got it. Yes saw that guide and feverishly looked for Urea here and when I couldn't find it... gave up 

But one question, the original reason for me to look into overseeding the KBG sodded backyard with KBG seed was to drown out any occurrences of weeds in spring/summer 2019. But you're saying Urea will do the same job?



Sinclair said:


> @Devil
> 
> Go to a TSC store or any farm/feed supply and buy a bag of 46-0-0 Urea. It's the cheapest option for nitrogen.
> 
> We are going to start pumping up the nitrogen in another month or so. We'll all be on here to help you along.


Perfect, I found it. Thanks so much.. this makes it so easy for me now that I have one product for one thing penciled in. The nearest one is in Milton and I have someone there who may be coming down to Toronto that I can request he get a couple bags (one for this year and one for 2019 fall lol)



Harts said:


> No problem. Trust me, I spent hours searching. Then I found this place.
> 
> RoundUp isn't a pre-emergent. It's for killing everything in it's path and should only be used when taking on a reno.
> 
> I second @Sinclair . Go to TSC (not sure where in the GTA you are) and get Urea. Home Hardware also sells an organic fert 9-2-2. It's more expensive than Urea but has phosphorous and potassium as well.
> 
> Don't be too dismissive of the Cool Season Guide. Folks in the Northeast (New York, Mass, NJ, Michigan etc) all have the same or similar weather patterns we do - in fact you could argue they have a much harsher winter than some of us in ON do. Yes, the Americans use different fertilizers but the stuff available to us here is just as good and serves the same purpose. There isn't anything in that guide that we can't apply here.


Gotcha. I always consider NYC as the nearest to our weather too, so that makes sense. Oh man, so if RoundUp isn't a pre-em, do you have any other product suggestions that I can somehow find in Toronto area that I can put down in Spring 2019?

What do you use?


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## Harts

Maybe I should explain what preemergents do. If you already have an understanding, then I apologize:

Preemergent herbicides prevent the germination of seeds without affecting established grass. In other words, if you have visible weeds in your lawn, a preemergent will not kill them.

Postemergent herbicides kill actively growing weeds but will not prevent germination of new weed seeds. These include any Scott's Weed B Gone products. Active ingredients you will generally find include Chelated Iron (in Canada formulas), 2, 4D, Dicamba, Triclopyr, Mecoprop etc. (in USA formulas and NOT available in Canada).

I use a product called Dimension (active ingredient is Dithiopyr). Prodiamine is the other more popular preemergent. (someone will correct me if I am missing one).

The difference between the two is Prodiamine is strictly a PRE emergent. It will not control any actively growing weeds. Dithiopyr is both a PRE and POST emergent. It will control some actively growing weeds, depending on how mature they are. Crabgrass is listed on the label as a weed controlled post emergently. It will also prevent new weed seeds from germinating.

RoundUp is made up of Glyphosate, which will kill just about anything that is green. We use Glypho when we are doing a renovation on our lawn - IE killing off all existing weeds and grass and starting over and growing new grass from seed. There other uses for Glypho, like killing grassy weeds in our lawn but for your purposes, you don't want to use it for this overseed project.

You will not find any pre-emergents like Dithiopyr or Prodiamine in Canada. They are banned by the Government. The only source that I know of that will ship to Canada and have used is Seed World USA.

You will see a Scott's product at CT or HH or Lowes with "Weed Prevent." This uses corn gluten as the so called active ingredient. There are mixed reviews over whether or not it actually works to prevent weeds from germinating. I think the general consensus is that it's a waste of money.

With regards to what @g-man is recommending: If you have a KBG lawn, fertilizing the crap out of it will help it spread to fill in any bare/thin spots. KBG is a self-repairing cultivar that generally does not ever need to be over seeded. You can use any Nitrogen source but Urea is usually the cheapest with the highest percentage of Nitrogen in the bag (46%). This means you would only need about 2lbs of Urea to get approx. 1lb of N on the ground. Having your KBG spread and fill in the bare areas will prevent future weed seeds from germinating.

I have only been on this forum for a few months and I have never seen @g-man tell someone to overseed a KBG lawn. He always recommends feeding it. I have also been here long enough to know that the man knows what he is talking about.


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## Sinclair

Devil said:


> Perfect, I found it. Thanks so much.. this makes it so easy for me now that I have one product for one thing penciled in. The nearest one is in Milton and I have someone there who may be coming down to Toronto that I can request he get a couple bags (one for this year and one for 2019 fall lol)


There's 25lbs of Nitrogen in that bag. For your 1000sf, that will last for 7 or 8 years of fall feeding.


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## Sinclair

Get yourself a digital kitchen scale, too. Urea is hot and can burn if over applied.


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## ken-n-nancy

Harts said:


> Maybe I should explain what preemergents do. If you already have an understanding, then I apologize..


A lot of awesome stuff in here. Wonder if we should have an "Introduction to Herbicides / Weed-Killers for Cool Season Lawns" article? A lot of this content could readily be edited a bit to do that. If you want to have a go at writing up such an article, I'd volunteer to help. There's some overlap with the Cool Season Lawn Guide, but a lot of new info, too...



Harts said:


> I have only been on this forum for a few months and I have never seen @g-man tell someone to overseed a KBG lawn. He always recommends feeding it. I have also been here long enough to know that the man knows what he is talking about.


+1 on both of those points!


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## Devil

Jeezus @Harts! You're a rockstar!! Thanks also for the message about Crabgrass... I had no idea. I thought pre-emerg in SPRING is what I'd need to do but you saved me a future (Summer 2019) world of pain from realizing I was wrong! lol

I picked Prodiamine since it's both pre and post and that's available on SeedWorldUSA. And I believe, fall, spring, mid-summer applications of Prodiamine will make sure I don't see much crabgrass. Early spring I see dandelions, but the weed whacker is enough for that I think.

Thanks for the information everyone and also @jurkewycmi for pointing me the right directions!! So based on everything I have seen from all you amazing people, this is what my plan now looks like:

*Backyard:*

Has a little clover, and a less than 5 crabgrass sprouts so I don't think I'll need to do any weed killing this fall.

Urea on backyard (KBG sodded last year) starting 2nd week of August, once every week till end of September. (thanks @Sinclair & @g-man!)

In October, put down Prodiamine (thanks again @Harts!) once.

In April, put down Prodiamine to cull any Spring surprises

*Frontyard:*

Currently has crabgrass and a little clover. I think I'll kill the crabgrass with Tenacity (thanks @Harts!)

Wait for the funeral to finish

Put down Scotts lawn top soil + KBG seed 2nd-ish week of August

Nurture with TLC

In late September, put down Urea [Added on recommendation of @ken-n-nancy]

In October, put down Prodiamine

In April, put down Prodiamine

It would be great if you guys can give a stamp of approval, so I can begin ordering.


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## g-man

The only change is that prodiamine should be applyed now (this weekend if possible) to prevent poa annua next year. This only applies to your backyard. Your front will need to wait until 60 days post seed germination.


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## ken-n-nancy

Devil said:


> So based on everything I have seen from all you amazing people, this is what my plan now looks like:


It's looking like a good plan!



Devil said:


> *Frontyard:*
> ...
> 
> Put down Scotts lawn top soil + KBG seed 2nd-ish week of August
> 
> Nurture with TLC
> 
> In October, put down Prodiamine (note, skipping Urea here since it's been freshly seeded, please feel free to correct)
> 
> In April, put down Prodiamine
> [/indent]


I'd suggest starting with the Urea sooner in the frontyard when the new KBG sprouts are getting up to about 1.5" or so. Hopefully that will be a little before the end of October, but it's probably not realistic for them to be that tall until about the last week of September. The urea applications should be light and frequent. (Maybe 0.25#N per application, weekly?)


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## Sinclair

Prodiamine isn't a post emergent.

Dithiopyr is a pre emergent with some limited post emergent properties on young crabgrass.


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## Devil

g-man said:


> The only change is that prodiamine should be applyed now (this weekend if possible) to prevent poa annua next year. This only applies to your backyard. Your front will need to wait until 60 days post seed germination.


I don't think I'd be able to get them to deliver this weekend  
By the time the Urea and the Prodiamine arrive, I'm thinking it would be 2nd week of August. Can I mix them both in the broadcast spreader in the backyard?



ken-n-nancy said:


> I'd suggest starting with the Urea sooner in the frontyard when the new KBG sprouts are getting up to about 1.5" or so. Hopefully that will be a little before the end of October, but it's probably not realistic for them to be that tall until about the last week of September. The urea applications should be light and frequent. (Maybe 0.25#N per application, weekly?)


Thanks! Editing post to make it last September.



Sinclair said:


> Prodiamine isn't a post emergent.
> 
> Dithiopyr is a pre emergent with some limited post emergent properties on young crabgrass.


Ahhh... looks like I'll return around Spring looking for post-emergents lol.
The weeds I've seen come and go are:

Poa Annua (mid-spring)
Dandelions (late spring)
Crabgrass (mid-summer around Canada Day and onwards)
Clover (hangs around most of the summer)

I think Weed B-Gon would be a good post-emergent for Clover (although I haven't seen it work with my last application lol)


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## g-man

You will see poa annual in mid spring, but it germinated in the fall of the previous year. That's why now is the time to apply a prem that will prevent it next year. I'm a few miles south and I wanted to apply it last weekend. I'm on vacation, so it will be when I return.


----------



## Devil

g-man said:


> You will see poa annual in mid spring, but it germinated in the fall of the previous year. That's why now is the time to apply a prem that will prevent it next year. I'm a few miles south and I wanted to apply it last weekend. I'm on vacation, so it will be when I return.


Just ordered it, as soon as it comes in... I'll run home and get it down!


----------



## Sinclair

Call them and see if you can add marking blue and propiconazole to your order.


----------



## Harts

ken-n-nancy said:


> A lot of awesome stuff in here. Wonder if we should have an "Introduction to Herbicides / Weed-Killers for Cool Season Lawns" article? A lot of this content could readily be edited a bit to do that. If you want to have a go at writing up such an article, I'd volunteer to help. There's some overlap with the Cool Season Lawn Guide, but a lot of new info, too...


Let me give it some thought. I'm still learning myself and not sure I would be able to speak intelligently enough on the subject. But I would love to help out.


----------



## Harts

The marking blue will last a few years. And it's so much fun to paint your lawn blue!


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> Call them and see if you can add marking blue and propiconazole to your order.


Haha, I know what marking blue is (i won't be able to stand my neighbours annoying me about it though lol) what's propiconazole for?


----------



## Harts

It's a fungicide used to treat problems like brown patch, grey leaf spot and dollar spot.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> It's a fungicide used to treat problems like brown patch, grey leaf spot and dollar spot.


Ah got it. Damn, should have called them.



Also, FYI, sound RoundUp at CT over the weekend. Probably watered down version of the US one?


----------



## Sinclair

Devil said:


> Also, FYI, sound RoundUp at CT over the weekend. Probably watered down version of the US one?


Yes - mostly water.

The American concentrates are 41%. The roundup that they keep under lock & key in Ontario is 0.7%....that's not a typo. Zero point seven percent.


----------



## j4c11

Mind you, the 41% gets diluted before it gets sprayed. The rate is about 2oz per gallon if I remember correctly, so ends up at about 1.5%. 0.7% is not bad, it will do the job, just slower.


----------



## Harts

Yes. I believe it only works out to 3.5%of active ingredient. Lawn products dot ca has concentrate roundup. 18% glyphosate.

And I know you already ordered from seed world but that have 41% glyphosate.

Stuff from CT will still get the job done. Get the big bottle though (5L I think). Much cheaper. You can just throw it in your tank sprayer and go. No mixing needed.


----------



## Sinclair

j4c11 said:


> Mind you, the 41% gets diluted before it gets sprayed. The rate is about 2oz per gallon if I remember correctly, so ends up at about 1.5%. 0.7% is not bad, it will do the job, just slower.


Oh yes, the 0.7% gets the job done just fine, I'm lamenting about paying for so much water.


----------



## Devil

Hilarious!
0.7%!

When my spray stuff comes in, I'll probably spray after dark. Not sure which neighbours ire (or deep probing questions) I'm gonna draw if they see me spraying..


----------



## jurkewycmi

Tell then product name "Nunya" , sold by "Bidness"


----------



## Sinclair

Devil said:


> Hilarious!
> 0.7%!
> 
> When my spray stuff comes in, I'll probably spray after dark. Not sure which neighbours ire (or deep probing questions) I'm gonna draw if they see me spraying..


Get an empty weed-b-gone jug, fill it with roundup, and use that to spray.

Glypho doesn't stink like 2,4D or fungicides.


----------



## Devil

Yeah that's what I was thinking. I thought I'd have trouble with just the Tenacity and Prodiamine. Don't have use for Roundup just yet... too much of a p-ssy to "kill 'em all!!"


----------



## Harts

I can't speak to how nosey your neighbours are, but I don't worry about spraying products that aren't available here. I just mix everything in my garage out of sight and if somebody asks (which they don't) I would just tell them it's weed spray or roundup. It's not like every herbicide is banned in Canada. You are allowed to spray your lawn. They don't need to know what specifically it is.

Just be smart. You don't need the cover of dark to work on your lawn!!!!


----------



## Devil

Haha thanks @Harts! That makes me feel better and I do have an empty battery operated sprayer of Weed B Gon. Hope you had a good long weekend.

I wanted to get something clarified from my old plan guys. Look below in bold and red. Thanks everyone!



Devil said:


> *Backyard:*
> 
> Has a little clover, and a less than 5 crabgrass sprouts so I don't think I'll need to do any weed killing this fall.
> *I noticed this past weekend that the crabgrass has shown up in a few more areas. Still nothing like how the frontyard is. But I'm wondering if I should use Tenacity to spot kill these guys?*
> 
> Urea on backyard (KBG sodded last year) starting 2nd week of August, once every week till end of September. (thanks @Sinclair & @g-man!)
> *It's already the second week of August, and now if I use the Tenacity... apparently it can take up to two weeks for me to see the crabgrass dying. That means I may miss the Urea window, right? Or does it not matter?*
> 
> In October, put down Prodiamine (thanks again @Harts!) once.
> 
> In April, put down Prodiamine to cull any Spring surprises
> 
> *Frontyard:*
> 
> Currently has crabgrass and a little clover. I think I'll kill the crabgrass with Tenacity (thanks @Harts!)
> *Now I'm not sure if I should kill with Tenacity or just RoundUp (the 0.7% from CT) because there's a patch that's just crabgrass. At least 5 sq ft of just crabgrass. And then there's patches here and there. What do ya'll think? Tenacity or kill that whole area? Asking this because of the optimal timeline for other overseeding related activities you see below*
> 
> Wait for the funeral to finish
> 
> Put down Scotts lawn top soil + KBG seed 2nd-ish week of August
> 
> Nurture with TLC
> 
> In late September, put down Urea [Added on recommendation of @ken-n-nancy]
> 
> In October, put down Prodiamine
> 
> In April, put down Prodiamine
> 
> It would be great if you guys can give a stamp of approval, so I can begin ordering.


----------



## Devil

Front yard crabgrass. You'll see the parts where the 5 square feet area and 2 square feet area of crab grass exists. The rest is all over. Most of it is particularly along south and west.









And here is a patch of clover in the center. (below)



Hopefully this gives you a better idea about my treatment clarification I needed in the above post.


----------



## jurkewycmi

Your front yard looks to be in a similar state to mine. I have been hand pulling my crabgrass. The roots are shallow and if your soil is moist it comes up no problem. I would hand pull the isolated clusters in the middle of the lawn for sure, and would probably do the same with the concentrated patches.

I imagine you could also glypho the areas of concentrated crabgrass and then scalp with a trimmer when you are prepping the area for seed. Use a piece of cardboard to stop overspray to the desired turf. I saw @g-man mention to use glypho at cooler temperatures because volitization can cause it to spread to adjacent grass. Those areas are so over run that you will essentially be seeding a bare area anyway so i would just kill it off.

Triclopyr is the chemical of choice for clover although other work as well I think. You will have to check the label for seeding time after application. Another option is to live with the clover until next year when the new grass is established, then you can go ahead and spray it like normal without worrying about killing baby grass or interfering with seed.

This is all educated guesswork based on information I have read from the forum. I have yet to try the above proposed tactics. Other users will no doubt have first hand experience with spots like this and I would encourage you to follow their direction since they will have actual results of their treatments.


----------



## Devil

jurkewycmi said:


> I imagine you could also glypho the areas of concentrated crabgrass and then scalp with a trimmer when you are prepping the area for seed. Use a piece of cardboard to stop overspray to the desired turf. I saw @g-man mention to use glypho at cooler temperatures because volitization can cause it to spread to adjacent grass. Those areas are so over run that you will essentially be seeding a bare area anyway so i would just kill it off.


Thanks man!

Love the idea about cardboard. I'm sad that I didn't buy the RoundUp from SeedWorld. What an idiot I was for saying "nah, too scared to kill 'em all". And that's exactly what I'm gonna have to do it seems.

Yup, so RoundUp (CT version, which I really hope will work within hours since it's rain non-stop now) and trimmer scalp.
Then drop the Scott's lawn soil and overseed the whole lawn, including these patches.


----------



## Harts

@Devil for next year, check out lawnproducts.ca. Located in Canada and have roundup concentrate. Much cheaper shipping options. They also sell Killex 3 way herbicide.

The stuff from CT will work.

And don't complain about the rain we're getting!!! Free water!!!


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> @Devil for next year, check out lawnproducts.ca. Located in Canada and have roundup concentrate. Much cheaper shipping options. They also sell Killex 3 way herbicide.
> 
> The stuff from CT will work.
> 
> And don't complain about the rain we're getting!!! Free water!!!


Haha, I complain about it because I don't know how it affects my whole process I got down here. Not sure if I start putting these things down, and then the rain will wash it all away? The instructions aren't the best either...


----------



## Harts

How long in between application and the rain?


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> How long in between application and the rain?


Yup, first up is going to have to be RoundUp (on the areas where it's pretty dense) and then Tenacity for spot killing the ones that are just chilling.

What I'm wondering is:


How long before it can be rained on

How long before they all die so I can begin putting down the KBG

---

And this one is an excited statement, and not a question: But I thought Prodiamine is going to be liquid!! It seems it's granules!! Made my job easier of just using a spreader.


----------



## g-man

@Devil please check your label for prodiamine. Most of it is sold as a granulate that you need to disolve in water and apply it in liquid. The amouny of granulates disolved is tiny.


----------



## Sinclair

Devil, did you order Prodiamine from seedworld?

Is it Alligare 65WDG? If so you dissolve a tiny amount in water as g-man said.

You need a very accurate digital scale with decimal grams precision. You probably have enough Prodiamine for 50 years now...I know I do!


----------



## Devil

g-man said:


> @Devil please check your label for prodiamine. Most of it is sold as a granulate that you need to disolve in water and apply it in liquid. The amouny of granulates disolved is tiny.





Sinclair said:


> Devil, did you order Prodiamine from seedworld?
> 
> Is it Alligare 65WDG? If so you dissolve a tiny amount in water as g-man said.
> 
> You need a very accurate digital scale with decimal grams precision. You probably have enough Prodiamine for 50 years now...I know I do!


Ohhhhh so I can't make a small mixture of it in a Scott's sprayer and hose?


----------



## Sinclair

Prodiamine is a job for a pressurized sprayer.


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> Prodiamine is a job for a pressurized sprayer.


Gotcha, looks like closer to Prodiamine time I'm gonna have to go to CT/HD and find one! Thanks for clarifying @Sinclair!


----------



## g-man

There is a version of prodiamine that is granulate applied. It is fairly new, but some members have used it. You really need to check your label.


----------



## Devil

Ok guys, here's the finalé for the frontyard. Here's the picture:



- So this weekend (Aug 11-12), I'm going to put RoundUp from CT into the Weed B Gon jug and spray the red portion. I'm not sure what to do about Tenacity for just spot killing some Crabgrass in the front and back yard. *So advice on this would be lovely.* Especially if I can use the Scotts hose connector spray.
- Water as per normal, i.e once every 2 days
- Wait till next weekend

*Saturday Aug 18*

- Spray RoundUp and Tenacity once again on Aug 18 (Saturday)

*Sunday Aug 19*

- Scalp the red and blue parts
- Loosen soil with light raking
- Put down 5lb of KBG on that whole lawn
- Put down Scotts lawn soil
- Rake the soil over the seed
- Water and begin TLC

Please tell me the part about Tenacity and if the rest of the plan is A-OK. Thanks much fellas!


----------



## Harts

Tenacity will take approx. 2 weeks before you see any effects. That's how long it took for it to kill my small patch of CG earlier this year.

I don't know about a hose end sprayer - I used a hand sprayer.

I would invest in a decent one - I recommend  this one  from CT. You will need one of these anyway for your Prodiamine.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> Tenacity will take approx. 2 weeks before you see any effects. That's how long it took for it to kill my small patch of CG earlier this year.
> 
> I don't know about a hose end sprayer - I used a hand sprayer.
> 
> I would invest in a decent one - I recommend  this one  from CT. You will need one of these anyway for your Prodiamine.


2 weeks, oh no. I guess I got no choice then. Either way, everything else is good as long as I move things forward another week?


----------



## Sinclair

If that's the area you're dealing with, I'd just roundup the whole thing and seed it from scratch in 10 days.

The KBG will establish fine where you use roundup, but trying to it established where there's already grass will yield less than the desired outcome. See my lawn journal. The results looked great last fall and this spring, but I wish I had done a full reno from the start.


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> If that's the area you're dealing with, I'd just roundup the whole thing and seed it from scratch in 10 days.
> 
> The KBG will establish fine where you use roundup, but trying to it established where there's already grass will yield less than the desired outcome. See my lawn journal. The results looked great last fall and this spring, but I wish I had done a full reno from the start.


Hmm, maketh senseth. I was actually toying with that idea. But not sure if that cute 5ml RoundUp would be enough for it.

Also not sure if the 5lb of KBG is enough for it? The package looks quite small when it arrived lol


----------



## jurkewycmi

http://safesportsfields.cals.cornell.edu/seeding-rates

KBG new seeding 1-3lb/1000 sq ft as per that particular source. You should have enough seed!

I think I speak for most of us here in saying I would love to watch the progress on a full Reno of the front square. From what I've gathered you have most of the reccomended control products to be very successful.


----------



## Devil

jurkewycmi said:


> http://safesportsfields.cals.cornell.edu/seeding-rates
> 
> KBG new seeding 1-3lb/1000 sq ft as per that particular source. You should have enough seed!
> 
> I think I speak for most of us here in saying I would love to watch the progress on a full Reno of the front square. From what I've gathered you have most of the reccomended control products to be very successful.


Thanks for the reassurance @jurkewycmi! Next, gonna have to figure out the dial on the Scott's broadcast spreader that will ensure I cover the whole lawn with the seed when the time comes.

Also, thanks for the suggestion of the progress report thread, it's something I'd love to see so I know what I did right/wrong. I created it here.


----------



## Devil

Quick questions below in bold red...



Devil said:


> Ok guys, here's the finalé for the frontyard. Here's the picture:
> 
> 
> 
> - So this weekend (Aug 11-12), I'm going to put RoundUp from CT into the Weed B Gon jug and spray the red portion. I'm not sure what to do about Tenacity for just spot killing some Crabgrass in the front and back yard. *So advice on this would be lovely.* Especially if I can use the Scotts hose connector spray.
> - Water as per normal, i.e once every 2 days
> - Wait till next weekend
> 
> *Saturday Aug 18*
> 
> - Spray RoundUp once again on Aug 18 (Saturday) *IS THIS RECOMMENDED?*
> 
> *Sunday Aug 19*
> 
> - Scalp the red and blue parts
> - Loosen soil with light raking
> - Put down 5lb of KBG on that whole lawn
> - Put down Scotts lawn soil *OR Peat Moss?*
> - Rake the soil over the seed
> - Water and begin TLC
> 
> Please tell me the part about Tenacity and if the rest of the plan is A-OK. Thanks much fellas!


----------



## Sinclair

My best advice to you is to just hit the whole thing with roundup, scalp it, and on seed day do another blanket app of roundup, and a blanket pre-m rate of Tenacity.

You have more than enough seed.

A year from now you'll have a mixed quality lawn, and you'll wish the whole thing was KBG.

I'm nuking my lawn this week because I should have done it last fall.


----------



## Sinclair

Ah just saw your journal and that you're doing a complete kill. Excellent!


----------



## Sinclair

Regarding the spreader setting, KBG seeds are very small, so use the lightest setting you have, and make multiple passes.

I use a Scott's handheld spreader on setting 1.


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> My best advice to you is to just hit the whole thing with roundup, scalp it, and on seed day do another blanket app of roundup, and a blanket pre-m rate of Tenacity.


Thanks!
Can I pour the recommended dosage of Tenacity in the sprayer along with the 2.5ml of RoundUp on seed day (or day before seed day)?



Sinclair said:


> Regarding the spreader setting, KBG seeds are very small, so use the lightest setting you have, and make multiple passes.
> 
> I use a Scott's handheld spreader on setting 1.


Thanks!
I guess I'll go for the lowest setting of the spreader then!


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> Ah just saw your journal and that you're doing a complete kill. Excellent!


Yup, what you said sounded logical. I was actually thinking of it too, just didn't have the balls for it as it would be my first ever actual lawn work.

But the visual confidence I receive by reading all you guys' suggestions pushed me to do it. So thank you for suggesting that!


----------



## Devil

Hey guys,

So I know I said I don't want to do much weed control in my backyard. And I was going to start dropping Urea (1lb for my 1000 ish sq ft backyard on the lowest setting of Scott's broadcast spreader) last weekend when I noticed all these new types of weeds crop up!

All I have right now is Tenacity and Prodiamine (which won't be called up for at least another month or so).

Do I spot kill these with Tenacity during the week and THEN on the weekend begin Urea? 1lb per week...









This one is slowly starting to come up in various places... it's a little harder than the other leafy ones, but also spreads kinda like a vine.


----------



## Harts

You can put the Prodiamine now in the backyard. September might be too late. You could do a split app now and another later this Fall (check your label to see what it recommends for intervals).

For weed control, try to identify what they are first - you don't want to waste Tenacity if it isn't going to work. It isn't a catch all herbicide. You will likely need a couple of different products on hand - 2-4, D; Dicamba and triclopyr. T

I have the Ortho Killex - http://www.lawnproducts.ca. This has 2-4,D and Dicamba. I also have Ortho Weed B Gon CCO (triclopyr). I mix them in order to widen the range of weeds that can be controlled.

That last picture looks like common purslane to me. Check this link out. Triclopyr and dicamba are effective on this.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> You can put the Prodiamine now in the backyard. September might be too late. You could do a split app now and another later this Fall (check your label to see what it recommends for intervals).


Gotcha. Can I put Urea a day or two after Prodiamine then?



Harts said:


> For weed control, try to identify what they are first - you don't want to waste Tenacity if it isn't going to work. It isn't a catch all herbicide. You will likely need a couple of different products on hand - 2-4, D; Dicamba and triclopyr. T
> 
> I have the Ortho Killex - http://www.lawnproducts.ca. This has 2-4,D and Dicamba. I also have Ortho Weed B Gon CCO (triclopyr). I mix them in order to widen the range of weeds that can be controlled.
> 
> That last picture looks like common purslane to me. Check this link out. Triclopyr and dicamba are effective on this.


So it looks like common purslane OR prostrate spurge? And then it's regular thistle, and that light green one may apparently be yellow wood sorrel.

All these, exactly like you said @Harts, may need 2,4-D and Dicamba and Triclopyr. And yellow wood sorrel; that needs Tenacity.

--

Now, based on weed killing, applying pre-emergent (Prodiamine) and also applying Urea.... what do you think is the order I should follow?

I'm thinking something like:

Day 1: Prodiamine (Aug 23)
Day 4: Weed killing by mixing all three products in a gallon and spot spraying (Aug 27, since Lawnproducts needs 3 day delivery)
Day 9: Urea
Day 16: Urea
Day 22: Urea

Thoughts?


----------



## Sinclair

Pick a time when we will get a moderate amount of rain (5-10mm) and do both Prodiamine and Urea right beforehand.


----------



## Harts

^ +1

Prodiamine and Urea won't affect each other. Throw em both down on the same day. But both will need to be watered in.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> ^ +1
> 
> Prodiamine and Urea won't affect each other. Throw em both down on the same day. But both will need to be watered in.


Thanks @Harts and @Sinclair! Prodiamine needs to be sprayed though... so it's going to be a separate thing so I'll spray Prodiamine first and then drop Urea. Also, I think I'm going to start with 0.5lb of Urea just to be on the safe side and see how it goes for the first week.

@Harts, one question for you, lawnproducts has Killex (so 2,4-D and Dicamba are taken care of) but where can I get Triclopyr products? Trying to order today so hopefully it can get here by weekend.


----------



## Sinclair

Devil said:


> Thanks @Harts and @Sinclair! Prodiamine needs to be sprayed though... so it's going to be a separate thing so I'll spray Prodiamine first and then drop Urea.


I would do it the other way around - make the dry (urea) application first so you're not walking through what you just sprayed.


----------



## Harts

I got mine from HD in Buffalo. Otherwise Seed World will carry it.. Timing won't be right for this weekend, but hey, we get free healthcare!


----------



## Devil

Sinclair said:


> Devil said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks @Harts and @Sinclair! Prodiamine needs to be sprayed though... so it's going to be a separate thing so I'll spray Prodiamine first and then drop Urea.
> 
> 
> 
> I would do it the other way around - make the dry (urea) application first so you're not walking through what you just sprayed.
Click to expand...

Holy crap - I would have probably figured this out AFTER doing it. Dodged a bullet there, thanks @Sinclair!



Harts said:


> I got mine from HD in Buffalo. Otherwise Seed World will carry it.. Timing won't be right for this weekend, but hey, we get free healthcare!


Ok, ordering from Seed World. Hopefully it's not too late if I do the weed killing next weekend. Ortho Killex from Lawnproducts and Alligare Triclopyr from Seed World. What do you think of the Triclopyr, @Harts?

And the other stuff...


----------



## Devil

Anybody? 
(PS: Do these have any odours btw? I'll be mixing them all together with the Tenacity and go at once)


----------



## Harts

Sorry man. I just saw these posts. I didn't get tagged for some reason.

If you stick your nose in the bottle, yes, they will have a slight smell. But other than that, there isn't a lingering odor in the air.

Although given your recent history.......haha

I usually mix my Killex (2,4-D, Dicamba, Mecoprop) with the CCO (triclopyr) to get a broader coverage of weeds. I know the triclopyr is effective for me because the Killex didn't have any effect on a few weeds earlier this year.

I thought you already sprayed your Tenacity?


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> Sorry man. I just saw these posts. I didn't get tagged for some reason.
> 
> If you stick your nose in the bottle, yes, they will have a slight smell. But other than that, there isn't a lingering odor in the air.
> 
> Although given your recent history.......haha
> 
> I usually mix my Killex (2,4-D, Dicamba, Mecoprop) with the CCO (triclopyr) to get a broader coverage of weeds. I know the triclopyr is effective for me because the Killex didn't have any effect on a few weeds earlier this year.
> 
> I thought you already sprayed your Tenacity?


No worries! Not sure why it didn't tag. Gonna try again @Harts.

I put Tenacity in a regular Weed B Gon jug and sprayed just the frontyard. Not the backyard. It's still got 2 litres in that Weed B Gon sprayer.

I'm thinking I'll get rid of it (because it's been a few days now that it's been sitting there), and add the right count of Tenacity, Killex and Alligaire Triclopyr (am I good with the products I showed above btw?) and go spray it out on the 1200ish sq ft of backyard.

Problem now is,

I gotta do Prodiamine, Urea (which btw I want to put 0.5lbs to not get burned and see how it goes) AND this triple mix for weed killing. We've had crazy rains, and I still didn't order stuff so all this got delayed. And now I don't know what's the best order in which to do this.


----------



## Harts

The stuff you bought from SW look good. I have the same marking dye and surfactant.

Are we just talking about your backyard now - for the herbicide, prodiamine and urea?

If so, I would put the urea down and then the prodiamine <-- this needs to get down ASAP to have protection next Spring. Get water down. I would wait a few days and then hit your weeds.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> The stuff you bought from SW look good. I have the same marking dye and surfactant.
> 
> Are we just talking about your backyard now - for the herbicide, prodiamine and urea?
> 
> If so, I would put the urea down and then the prodiamine <-- this needs to get down ASAP to have protection next Spring. Get water down. I would wait a few days and then hit your weeds.


Yes, just backyard now since the frontyard has a journal for it. :nod:

Going to get on the urea + prodiamine today then, thanks @Harts! So you think 0.5lb for 1200 sq ft to start is good enough? I'll have it at the lowest setting on the Scott's spreader. I'm doubtful if I'd get full coverage though, so maybe 1lb?


----------



## Harts

When you say 0.5lb, do you mean of Urea or N?

If it were me (and this is what I will be doing in a few weeks) I would put down 0.25 lb N per 1,000 sf of lawn each week (0.5 lbs Urea each week).

For your 1200 sf, that would be 0.6 lbs of Urea on the ground every week.

For small areas, I use the Scott's Whizz handheld spreader. When I am doing my entire lawn (2500 sf), I use the regular Scott's broadcast spreader.


----------



## Devil

Harts said:


> When you say 0.5lb, do you mean of Urea or N?
> 
> If it were me (and this is what I will be doing in a few weeks) I would put down 0.25 lb N per 1,000 sf of lawn each week (0.5 lbs Urea each week).
> 
> For your 1200 sf, that would be 0.6 lbs of Urea on the ground every week.
> 
> For small areas, I use the Scott's Whizz handheld spreader. When I am doing my entire lawn (2500 sf), I use the regular Scott's broadcast spreader.


I meant Urea so, ok, 0.6lbs it is. Thanks man!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

You can go as high as 1lb per 1000 sq ft of urea (.46lb per 1000 sq ft N) weekly spread evenly in a lawn that doesn't have fine fescue without burning or damage at this time of year. If you go that heavy you will be cutting very often.


----------



## Devil

SNOWBOB11 said:


> You can go as high as 1lb per 1000 sq ft of urea (.46lb per 1000 sq ft N) weekly spread evenly in a lawn that doesn't have fine fescue without burning or damage at this time of year. If you go that heavy you will be cutting very often.


Gotcha, that's great to know about the burn. I started with 0.6 precisely to avoid the burning. But it's good to know I can go up to 1lb. I just did the 0.6lbs of Urea (the pellets were not as small as the KBG lol) with a 3 1/2 setting on the spreader. I started with the 2 setting along the edges, but those pellets had a hard time getting out.

So next week I'll hopefully start with 3 1/2 setting, except I'll keep it at 0.6lbs @SNOWBOB11 because I don't want to be mowing more than twice a week  Hopefully September 3rd week I'll up it to 1lb as the growth is probably going to slow down naturally.


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## Devil

Hope everyone is having a wonderful Labour day!

So, I was confronted by a neighbour who isn't comfortable with me spraying chemicals on my lawn. He's already called the ministry to come and say I can't use the CT version of RoundUp. And now threatened to call again as he saw me applying the Prodiamine. So all I got to cover was 70% of the lawn.

He educated me on their ill-effects and I educated him on what pre-ems are, etc. Long story short, we had a proper discussion and this is the way I see it:

If I spray the other planned (Killex, etc), he may call the ministry again. And at the end of the day, I may (or may not) get fined. So I decided not to. Thankfully I just didn't get the time to order them so there's that. This means my backyard still has a nice variety of weeds, and I won't be able to kill them and hopefully the 70% Prodiamine will prevent CG next year.

Having said that, I know I can do whatever I want as it's my side of the property and so I want to use stuff that the ministry of health can't say no to - thereby neighbour having to shut up. Needless to say, I'm pretty upset that I have a thorn in my plan of having a great lawn.


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## g-man

I'm lost. How he knows what you are spraying?


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## Devil

g-man said:


> I'm lost. How he knows what you are spraying?


The first complaint call was "unknown chem", so when inspector arrived, he asked to see the bottle. I showed him the CT RoundUp bottle, and he says any chem with Glypho is banned and I cannot use it.

This same inspector called the complainant (my neighbour) and gave him an update.

Fast forward to today when he saw me spraying Prodiamine. He assumed it's the same chemical (i.e RoundUp) and came yelling. Told him it's an herbicide for weed-prevention, not even weed-killing.


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## Devil

I guess whenever he sees the Chapin sprayer with a mask on my face, or any protection.. he assumes something's off.


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## g-man

I guess that daily watering with the Chapin will drive him crazy.


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## SNOWBOB11

I would have never told the neighbor what I was spraying or showed the ministry the bottle. It's non of there concern. Now they know what your up to it makes things more difficult for you.


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## Harts

Time to get a headlamp and do some midnight spraying!


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## Grasshopper

Thats a shame Devil...

I don't understand how anything with glypho is "banned" when it's for sale to anyone in any big box store here?

My reply if my neighbours ask during my reno is vinegar to kill the grass as well as my humic acid & kelp bottle...

However it's not any of their business and I don't think they care. My next door neighbor, who knows whats really going on actually got excited and said they'd pay me to spray their crabgrass :lol:


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## llO0DQLE

Devil said:


> Hope everyone is having a wonderful Labour day!
> 
> So, I was confronted by a neighbour who isn't comfortable with me spraying chemicals on my lawn. He's already called the ministry to come and say I can't use the CT version of RoundUp. And now threatened to call again as he saw me applying the Prodiamine. So all I got to cover was 70% of the lawn.
> 
> He educated me on their ill-effects and I educated him on what pre-ems are, etc. Long story short, we had a proper discussion and this is the way I see it:
> 
> If I spray the other planned (Killex, etc), he may call the ministry again. And at the end of the day, I may (or may not) get fined. So I decided not to. Thankfully I just didn't get the time to order them so there's that. This means my backyard still has a nice variety of weeds, and I won't be able to kill them and hopefully the 70% Prodiamine will prevent CG next year.
> 
> Having said that, I know I can do whatever I want as it's my side of the property and so I want to use stuff that the ministry of health can't say no to - thereby neighbour having to shut up. Needless to say, I'm pretty upset that I have a thorn in my plan of having a great lawn.


Welcome to the great province of Bantario. This is why I'm glad I live in Alberta. Our winters suck but at least we haven't reached the stupidity of Ontario with such bans. And now Tory wants to ban handguns while doing nothing about gangs. Anyway... I would've told that nosy neighbor it's none of his fucking business and told the ministry guy I was spraying Natria.


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## Harts

Unfortunately the ministry is right. After a lot of research, glyphosate cannot be used for cosmetic purposes. There is an information sheet that is SUPPOSED to be handed out when someone buys round up from a big box store in Ontario (a copy of this sheet is on the government website). That sheet specifically and clearly states we are not allowed to use on lawns and gardens etc.

Is it stupid? Absolutely.

Was the neighbour an *** for calling the ministry? Absolutely. But well within his right to do so.

Glyphosate is listed as a class 9 pesticide. Others on that list: 2,4D and dicamba.

It's a crappy situation and very unfortunate. But it's what we have to live with.


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## Sinclair

Thankfully Prodiamine is not listed as a class 9 in Ontario.


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## Harts

No but propiconazole is! Haha


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## Harts

@Devil What is weird is of the 12 classes of perticides / herbicides listed on the Government of Ontario website, prodiamine isn't listed at all. Unless I'm totally missing it.

Which means you should get away with it on a technicality should your neighbour call the ministry. Check it out and double check to make sure I didn't miss it. Dithiopyr, IS listed and canot be used.


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## llO0DQLE

Harts said:


> Was the neighbour an @ss for calling the ministry? Absolutely. But well within his right to do so.


That's a stretch to call it a right. It's not his property. He's just being meddlesome and needs to mind his own business.



Harts said:


> It's a crappy situation and very unfortunate. But it's what we have to live with.


Or you guys can effect change by lobbying politicians.


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## Devil

Thanks a ton for all the support guys. I know this is super unfortunate, and it irks me a crap ton too. Looks like fenced detached houses have a good premium for a reason. You pay extra so these types of neighbours don't spoil your day. 
Anyway, taking an extended Labour day holiday out east. And internet is super spotty here. Hence the delay in response.



SNOWBOB11 said:


> I would have never told the neighbor what I was spraying or showed the ministry the bottle. It's non of there concern. Now they know what your up to it makes things more difficult for you.


Thing is ministry, apparently, the ministry can return to do a soil test using information from the complaint to check what chemicals are in the soil. Rare, but it can happen. Didn't want to go that far lol



Harts said:


> Time to get a headlamp and do some midnight spraying!


I know right! This time I had it perfectly timed so both sides neighbours were gone (and didn't expect the younger of the bunch who works evenings will be home and watching this like a hawk). As I spoke to him, I realized that he was angry thinking it's RoundUp and had no idea what I was spraying. I could have nipped it all in the bud immediately if I know he was angry thinking it's RoundUp and continued. He's just a passionate environmentalist.



Grasshopper said:


> Thats a shame Devil...
> 
> I don't understand how anything with glypho is "banned" when it's for sale to anyone in any big box store here?
> 
> My reply if my neighbours ask during my reno is vinegar to kill the grass as well as my humic acid & kelp bottle...
> 
> However it's not any of their business and I don't think they care. My next door neighbor, who knows whats really going on actually got excited and said they'd pay me to spray their crabgrass :lol:


This is EXACTLY what I said. Government has so far not allowed the sale of Marijuana, so I couldn't buy it at Shoppers. So why is it that so-and-so product is banned, but I can buy it at Canadian Tire?

You're lucky your neighbour took your help. My other neighbours are also fine. It's just this one, totally unexpected came out of the blue. If I was 99% sure that "Harry" is the one calling the ministry, it's like I found out that "Henry" the usually normal young one of the bunch is the one who called!



llO0DQLE said:


> Welcome to the great province of Bantario. This is why I'm glad I live in Alberta. Our winters suck but at least we haven't reached the stupidity of Ontario with such bans. And now Tory wants to ban handguns while doing nothing about gangs. Anyway... I would've told that nosy neighbor it's none of his f--- business and told the ministry guy I was spraying Natria.


I would have loved to say that to the neighbour, but I didn't want it to escalate to the point where the ministry comes and does soil tests to call me a liar, and fine me lol



Harts said:


> @Devil What is weird is of the 12 classes of perticides / herbicides listed on the Government of Ontario website, prodiamine isn't listed at all. Unless I'm totally missing it.
> 
> Which means you should get away with it on a technicality should your neighbour call the ministry. Check it out and double check to make sure I didn't miss it. Dithiopyr, IS listed and canot be used.


You know what man, I searched for Prodiamine exhaustingly all over the websites and couldn't find it listed either. Also took a look at the Quali-Pro jug of Prodiamine and saw that Prodiamine is the active ingredient to make sure. But now that you don't see it either, I have information for the neighbour.

All I know now is I've given him the heads up about Urea and Weed B Gon jugs. Told him, for his sake and because I'm not an inconsiderate pos, I'll look into an organic version. Hence I'll be using the Ecosense Weed B Gon jugs.


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## Harts

You handled it all the right way. No sense getting pissy with neighbours over something your doing that is technically illegal. Whether you agree with the ban or not.

Enjoy the rest of your trip.


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## Dmega

@Devil 
My lawn is almost weed free by pulling out crab grass by hand and spraying weed b gone on everything else.

Its an added chore but I regularly search for baby crabgrass to pluck (none of my neighbors take care of thier lawns) and I find weed b gone does not kill it.


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## llO0DQLE

Harts said:


> You handled it all the right way. No sense getting pissy with neighbours over something your doing that is technically illegal. Whether you agree with the ban or not.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your trip.


Don't listen to Harts. You're the Devil. Go spray his lawn with RU and then report him to the ministry. :twisted: :lol:


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## Devil

Harts said:


> You handled it all the right way. No sense getting pissy with neighbours over something your doing that is technically illegal. Whether you agree with the ban or not.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your trip.


Huge underscore on "technically". That was my thinking - if it came down to technicality, I'd have to take defeat.



Dmega said:


> @Devil
> My lawn is almost weed free by pulling out crab grass by hand and spraying weed b gone on everything else.
> 
> Its an added chore but I regularly search for baby crabgrass to pluck (none of my neighbors take care of thier lawns) and I find weed b gone does not kill it.


Looks like I'm going to have to do that every weekend in the summer of 2019. Going to brush up on the knowledge of identifying baby CG.



llO0DQLE said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> You handled it all the right way. No sense getting pissy with neighbours over something your doing that is technically illegal. Whether you agree with the ban or not.
> 
> Enjoy the rest of your trip.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't listen to Harts. You're the Devil. Go spray his lawn with RU and then report him to the ministry. :twisted: :lol:
Click to expand...

LOL imagine. It would be hilarious! But no, I'm waiting to be a lot more devious around the holidays, when they need me to be nice to them. So all in due time my friend, all in due time.


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## Sinclair

llO0DQLE said:


> Don't listen to Harts. You're the Devil. Go spray his lawn with RU and then report him to the ministry. :twisted: :lol:


 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## MikeyD

Anybody in Ontario use Killex/Weedex/other forms of 2-4D? I have been looking at a few different products and was wondering which were successful and which were not that great. Main problem is broadleaf and clover. Have ~25,000 square feet with some random broadleaf and a few spots with heavy infestation. Am not looking to doing anything with what little is left on this season; looking for an early start next year to take care of the problem spots...any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## Harts

2,4-d for the broadleaf. Check out lawnproducts.ca.

Triclopyr for clover. Weed b gon CCO from HD in the US if you're ever in Buffalo or check out seed world USA. They'll have a generic form and ship to Canada without issue.

I mix both together to give me a wider coverage of weeds.

Seed world will also carry pre-emergents to prevent new weed growth next season.


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## MikeyD

Harts said:


> 2,4-d for the broadleaf. Check out lawnproducts.ca.
> 
> Triclopyr for clover. Weed b gon CCO from HD in the US if you're ever in Buffalo or check out seed world USA. They'll have a generic form and ship to Canada without issue.
> 
> I mix both together to give me a wider coverage of weeds.
> 
> Seed world will also carry pre-emergents to prevent new weed growth next season.


I tried a Killex with medium results earlier in the season. Reapplied 6 weeks later but the outcome was less than expected. Any other specific brands recommended? What would be a good preM for broadleaf? I generally suffer from dandelion and clover/black medic. Not too much in terms of crabgrass/nutsedge. Inherited this massive lawn and am trying to get it under control. Overseeded heavily early in the fall with good results. Hoping to see an improvement and takeoff in the spring.


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## Stuofsci02

You can get par3 and roundup transorb shipped discreetly to your door with free shipping from within Canada


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## SNOWBOB11

MikeyD said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2,4-d for the broadleaf. Check out lawnproducts.ca.
> 
> Triclopyr for clover. Weed b gon CCO from HD in the US if you're ever in Buffalo or check out seed world USA. They'll have a generic form and ship to Canada without issue.
> 
> I mix both together to give me a wider coverage of weeds.
> 
> Seed world will also carry pre-emergents to prevent new weed growth next season.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried a Killex with medium results earlier in the season. Reapplied 6 weeks later but the outcome was less than expected. Any other specific brands recommended? What would be a good preM for broadleaf? I generally suffer from dandelion and clover/black medic. Not too much in terms of crabgrass/nutsedge. Inherited this massive lawn and am trying to get it under control. Overseeded heavily early in the fall with good results. Hoping to see an improvement and takeoff in the spring.
Click to expand...

You can try this https://www.seedworldusa.com/collections/herbicide-post-emergent/products/triclopyr-4-herbicide-1-quart. Should work well on your clover as well as other weeds. May need several applications but will do the job.


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## skitzo420

Yeah, I agree that it may help. I tried it for personal use as well.


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