# Meet John Perry, CEO of Green County Fertilizer



## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Hey, just thought I'd pass this along. If you live in the Triad area of North Carolina, John Perry is having an impromptu meetup. Check the description of this video to RSVP. Its open to professional applicators, and DIY'ers alike.

@LawnNerdI know you're local, @SGrabs33 @Cory you guys might have to drive a bit. I've driven longer distances for less reward


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Hey, just thought I'd pass this along. If you live in the Triad area of North Carolina, John Perry is having an impromptu meetup. Check the description of this video to RSVP. Its open to professional applicators, and DIY'ers alike.
> 
> @LawnNerdI know you're local, @SGrabs33 @Cory you guys might have to drive a bit. I've driven longer distances for less reward


It's about 2.5 hours from me, it may be interesting to go to but I just don't have the time. Thanks for sharing though.

I'm the type that don't like to try new things that haven't been proven. I think what he's doing is commendable but I need to see results from someone that isn't getting paid to put out reviews of his products. I'm really interested in seeing what happens with your yard and his products since my back yard look about the same


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Similar to me, I'm about 90 minutes away. But will be working during part of his meet up. I've 'drank the cool-aid' for this year. I figure $100 to see if my lawn can survive the Charlotte heat this summer is worth it if it works. If not, I've blown more than $100 on lottery tickets in my lifetime, so it's no big loss.


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

@beastcivic Perk to having Bermuda, don't have to worry about it dying in the summer :thumbup:


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

Cory said:


> @beastcivic Perk to having Bermuda, don't have to worry about it dying in the summer :thumbup:


I know, I know! But I'm a northerner transplanted to the south. I want my northern grass, green into the winter.

Plus my back yard is 75% pretty heavily shaded, I need something that can tolerate it. And I don't want a mullet lawn (short in the front, long in the back).


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

beastcivic said:


> ........And I don't want a mullet lawn (short in the front, long in the back).


Is it bad for me to admit that I would want this mullet that you speak of? If it was not for my career and wife... I would do it. No.. I am not talking about the lawn.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

wardconnor said:


> beastcivic said:
> 
> 
> > ........And I don't want a mullet lawn (short in the front, long in the back).
> ...


LOL!!! "Another day and another beer" Quote of the day :thumbup:


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

@Colonel K0rn

Hey thanks for the tag i never would have seen it otherwise! Its on my way home, and the boss is out tomorrow... Ill be swinging by!

@wardconnor with that mustache, that mullet would be killer man!!!


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## beastcivic (Mar 26, 2018)

wardconnor said:


> beastcivic said:
> 
> 
> > ........And I don't want a mullet lawn (short in the front, long in the back).
> ...


Haha, do it!


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

:rofl:


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

This went from meet John Perry to @wardconnor getting a mullet :lol:


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I would grow one just like that one in the video if I didn't need to worry about career. I have ALWAYS wanted an SFLB (short front long back) business in the front party in the back.

https://youtu.be/Akec_5zCgso


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

@wardconnor would go great with those retro shirts you been wearing 😂😂😂


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Cory said:


> @wardconnor would go great with those retro shirts you been wearing 😂😂😂


Yeah.......I KNOW. I need that hair style. Maybe when I retire I can FINALLY do it. My wife might kill me but... She'll get over it. FYI she hates my mustache.


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## TigerinFL (Mar 29, 2018)

so what are you going to call it?

Camaro Hair 
Hockey Hair 
Rat's Nest 
Soccer Hair 
The "10-90" 
The Achy Breaky Big Mistakey 
The Ape Drape 
The Batty Boy Bishop 
The Tennessee Top Hat 
The Beaver Paddle 
The Business in the Front, and Party in the Back 
The Camaro Crash Helmet 
The El Camino Headrest 
The Canadian Passport 
The Missouri Compromise 
The Alabama Shag 
The Mississippi Mudflap 
The North Carolina Neck Warmer 
The Droopy Curtains 
The Megan McCain 
The Tennessee Tail 
The Kentucky Waterfall 
The Nashville Bi-level


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Cory said:


> It's about 2.5 hours from me, it may be interesting to go to but I just don't have the time. Thanks for sharing though.
> 
> I'm the type that don't like to try new things that haven't been proven. I think what he's doing is commendable but I need to see results from someone that isn't getting paid to put out reviews of his products. I'm really interested in seeing what happens with your yard and his products since my back yard look about the same


Who's getting paid to put out reviews?

Edit: I may be owed money!


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> Who's getting paid to put out reviews?


It's pretty obvious that Pete (GCI turf) and Allen Hane (Lawn Care Nut) both have something to gain considering they are the only distributors of the product, http://www.greenecountyfert.com/diy/. The only other videos I have seen using Green County products is yours, granted I don't spend a tremendous amount of time looking for them, forgive me if I have missed any. Seems that the only one doing any testing and is not directly benefiting from the sale of products is you, to which I am courious how your air-8 vs aerate turns out.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

While they do profit on the sale of the material, it's a bit of a touchy subject to me because I frequently have to defend my position.

The science behind root mass increases with Humic and kelp(RGS) is proven (VA tech).

Soil available carbon, higher CECs are a proven benefit as well.

Air8 is still a theory to me and will remain such for quite a while.

The rest of it is just a blend of Humic, N-K, minors, citric acid, and lignin. Nothing really magical there. Just a neat, simple way of formulating it.

There's nothing magical about it. It's very basic, and for guys like me, cheap cost:reward ratio.

These two lawns are AMS at 1/2lb N. One had 3gal/a of RGS. One had none. They're next door. Same fertility program. Same seed. Same irrigation.





That's why I talk about his products, not because I get paid. Nor have I ever been paid, nor will I ever be paid.

I'm sorry for being so sensitive about it, but I don't want to be lumped into a group I don't belong. The mysticism surrounding the product line is bizarre considering how basic it truly is.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

@Cory I believe I can shed some light on the subject. I spoke with Brad Huff, the COO of GCF when I ordered my 30 gallons of product (I've got to order more tomorrow). I asked him why Pete and LCN were involved, as I was able to buy from GCF directly last year. He said that they were getting a LOT of new interest from homeowners, and only have x number of employees working on their sales team that are used to fielding accounts from commercial applicators at the rate of 5-10 calls a day. When the call volume starts hitting 4-5 times that amount daily, and you don't increase your people answering the phones, the obvious solution is to implement a portal for the DIY customer/homeowner to order the product from people who have a large following. It's called targeting marketing, and strictly coming from a business perspective, it makes perfect sense. The customer is able to get the product that they need that's been put together in a package of what is going to give the consumer the most bang for their buck, and at an affordable rate.

Both Pete and Allyn have worked very hard to gain their following, which was amassed prior to GCF even being part of their equation for either of their channels, and they deserve to be compensated for their role, albeit a small affiliate commission. I'm pretty sure if you were in their position, you'd expect to be compensated too.

That being said, humates added as soil amendments aren't a new thing. Just ask @wardconnor.

Now while @thegrassfactor says he won't be paid, I'm sure that boy wouldn't turn down a nice glass of iced tea and some PB&J sammiches  I told you, I'd take care of you when you come to Savannah. There's a great place called Tubby's Tankhouse on Thunderbolt Island. It's not far away, and the buffalo shrimp is amazeballs. We'll have some nice adult beverages, enjoy the music and the view outside if the sand gnats aren't too bad.


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

@Colonel K0rn I'm not saying no one should get paid or that there is anything wrong with them marketing through YouTube channels. It's a great way to new get customers and sell a ton of product. I know how much work is involved in making YT videos having made several my self and how little YT pays you for them. Not knocking anyone for their efforts just was wanting to see comparison results from someone who didn't have something to gain befor I could go drop a bunch of cash on their products.

@thegrassfactor I was only talking about the guys directly benefiting. It's hard for me to take their results seriously since they have something to gain from it. All I wanted to see was a non biased comparison using green county products vs not. I've watched enough of Pete's videos and feel like if it doesn't give him good results then he would say it, but LCN probably wouldn't. Just my thoughts FWIW.

The difference between those two properties are crazy!


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

@Colonel K0rn I'm not saying no one should get paid or that there is anything wrong with them marketing through YouTube channels. It's a great way to new get customers and sell a ton of product. I know how much work is involved in making YT videos having made several my self and how little YT pays you for them. Not knocking anyone for their efforts just was wanting to see comparison results from someone who didn't have something to gain befor I could go drop a bunch of cash on their products.

@thegrassfactor I was only talking about those guys directly benefiting. It's hard for me to take their results seriously since they have something to gain from it. All I wanted to see was a non biased comparison using green county products vs not. I've watched enough of Pete's videos and feel like if it doesn't give him good results then maybe he would say it, but LCN probably wouldn't. Just my thoughts FWIW.

The difference between those two properties are crazy!


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

@Cory So i went to the talk last Friday, and Pete was there. You should have made the trip because Pete and John had some very good discussions on his product. Pete was not there as "Pete from YouTube". He was there as "Pete Owner / Operator of GCI Turf", and was very serious in this talk. You know John like's to say how you'll never need mechanically aerate again? Pete doesn't like that. He pointed out that while the GCF products will remove the need for Mechanical aeration, one thing GCF products can't do is increase seed to soil contact like a good Aerovation.

The way i look at it, at the end of the day @thegrassfactor and Pete are running their businesses and using these products in their business. Youtube could implode and cease to exist, but these two guys still need to run their businesses to feed their families. If it's giving them results and they believe in the product, then I'm in.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

@Cory I apologize for being b*tchy. I got into an argument with another fertilizer rep that accused me of being paid to promote or bash products. Clearly, I'm still sensitive about it 😂😂


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## Cory (Aug 23, 2017)

@LawnNerd I would have liked to go just way to short of a notice. It's cool Pete wasn't just agreeing with all of it. When a company comes out with something and says that it's products will eliminate a process that has been done forever or will do all these great things for your ...... without proof of its success I tend to be a tad skeptical. I'm not saying I don't think their products work, but haven't seen much proof that they actually do. The picture @thegrassfactor just posted is the only comparison photos I have seen. I know Pete has an experiment going with Milo, Urea type fertilizer, and Green county products but it hasn't been enough time since he started it for results.

@thegrassfactor It's all good, sometimes things can come arcross wrong through text. If you get great results, use their products and get enough other people using them then I feel you should get a cut. I feel like Milorganite should cut Ryan Knoor, Grassdaddy, and LCN a big fat check for the amount of people they have turned onto their product. And even with milorganite I don't think the benefits out weigh the cost.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

thegrassfactor said:


> While they do profit on the sale of the material, it's a bit of a touchy subject to me because I frequently have to defend my position.
> 
> The science behind root mass increases with Humic and kelp(RGS) is proven (VA tech).
> 
> ...


Agreed. The science isn't really new and has been used by master gardeners for years and lawn professionals as well.

The one thing that is slightly different (though not new) is the presentation of humates and kelp in spray form. Usually the stuff was found in granular applications to my knowledge. Having it in spray form does a big help to your program I'm sure since you can apply it with herbicides and get double benefits from that mixed application. I have been applying RGS with every herbicide application for a year and like what I have seen.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Agreed. The science isn't really new and has been used by master gardeners for years and lawn professionals as well.
> 
> The one thing that is slightly different (though not new) is the presentation of humates and kelp in spray form. Usually the stuff was found in granular applications to my knowledge. Having it in spray form does a big help to your program I'm sure since you can apply it with herbicides and get double benefits from that mixed application. I have been applying RGS with every herbicide application for a year and like what I have seen.


@thegrassfactor I need some clarification. I thought you used large amounts of humates to reduce the effects of herbicides. If that is the case, would a regular dose also reduce it's efficacy? I know humates can extend the length of fert release or effects. What are your thoughts on this?


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

The large rate if Humic I used in that instance was more so for the kelp and the potassium hydroxide. It was to push the roots through the effect of the pre-emergent, not to reduce the efficacy of the herbicide. It may have had that effect but it was an unintended consequence @Suburban Jungle Life


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. The science isn't really new and has been used by master gardeners for years and lawn professionals as well.
> ...


Humates or mixtures of fulvic and humic acids do not lessen the effect of herbicides and fungicides, although you're on the right path. Humates are basically a form of soil amendment, just like compost in the garden. They serve as a soil microbial stimulator and organic chelator, which has a number of beneficial outcomes. Below the ground, they can create healthier root systems (more oxygen and space for drainage and evaporation)with more efficient absorption. Above ground, you will see in the long term healthier foliage that is vastly more efficient at absorbing nutrients and resisting stress such as drought, fungus, and naturally occurring or synthetic herbicides. The effect is that herbicide applications can be more efficient, or as you said the visible effects of the herbicide appear lessened (but in reality the plant is just stronger). A correctly applied herbicide is going to stress the weeds it is intended to kill no matter how many humates are present, but the collateral effects on your turf grass appear lessened because the grass is stronger.

@thegrassfactor is the most knowledgeable person I've seen explain all of this, so hopefully I'm not butchering it.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

So, it seems like fulvic acids help to increase absorption of fert and herbicides due to their very high CEC level and small size therefore acting as a carrier into the plant. But, humic acids are too large to be foliarly absorbed. I understand that they do their work in the soil once water washes them off the leaves or the grass is mowed. But, since they are very absorbent with a high CEC, would the humic acid theoretically hold onto the herbicide and not let it be foliarly absorbed but instead brought to the ground at some point and broken down by the microbes thus reducing efficacy and leaving less on the leaf to be absorbed?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

The problem I have with humic substance amendments is the "puffery."
Particularly with two characteristics for which it is promoted:
1. Increased CEC. This has been discussed (with the math) elsewhere in this forum. Yes, pound for pound humic substances have an extremely high CEC; however, at the recommended application rates, other than for a very, very low CEC sand soil, any increase in CEC would be insignificant and ineffective. The cost to raise CEC significantly would be exorbitant. I'm unaware of any field study that has tested the resulting increase made by applying humic/fulvic acid to a soil and the length of time an increase, if any, would last.
2. Aeration, reduction of soil compaction. Again I'm unaware of any study where an addition of humic substance has been shown to result in a reduction of bulk density. I would think this would be a rather easy test to run. Place the same soil into two graduated column beakers, compact the soil, record the level, add humic acid to one beaker and add water to the other. Record any rise in the level of the soil.
FWIW, some studies have shown that humic substance amendments can adversely affect herbicide and pesticide effectiveness.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2683&p=51827#p51827
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2541


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> The problem I have with humic substance amendments is the "puffery."
> Particularly with two characteristics for which it is promoted:
> 1. Increased CEC. This has been discussed (with the math) elsewhere in this forum. Yes, pound for pound humic substances have an extremely high CEC; however, at the recommended application rates, other than for a very, very low CEC sand soil, any increase in CEC would be insignificant and ineffective. The cost to raise CEC significantly would be exorbitant. I'm unaware of any field study that has tested the resulting increase made by applying humic/fulvic acid to a soil and the length of time an increase, if any, would last.
> 2. Aeration, reduction of soil compaction. Again I'm unaware of any study where an addition of humic substance has been shown to result in a reduction of bulk density. I would think this would be a rather easy test to run. Place the same soil into two graduated column beakers, compact the soil, record the level, add humic acid to one beaker and add water to the other. Record any rise in the level of the soil.
> ...


There is definitely still research needed. Farmers and gardeners have basically been conducting small-scale field trials in their crops based on what is thought to be reliable science. Here is a brief Article from 2002 similarly concluding that the use of humic acid in turfgrass is under-researched and the benefits unclear.

That being said, science would tell us that humates/humic acid is a carbon compound created from decaying organic material, which makes it extremely difficult for the compound to further decompose. It is much more likely than not that the organic nutrients found in those compounds remain in our lawn for years without reduction. The one scientific principle that cannot be disputed is that there is no such thing as a "loss" when it comes to an element or chemical compound. We turn oxygen into CO2, fire is a chemical reaction that converts oxygen and a combustible fuel into heat, etc. Atoms do not cease to exist, they only change in their orientation to create different compounds. The humates go through the same process, and the science suggests those compounds form nutrients that strengthen root systems and chelate foliage.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> The problem I have with humic substance amendments is the "puffery."
> Particularly with two characteristics for which it is promoted:
> 1. Increased CEC. This has been discussed (with the math) elsewhere in this forum. Yes, pound for pound humic substances have an extremely high CEC; however, at the recommended application rates, other than for a very, very low CEC sand soil, any increase in CEC would be insignificant and ineffective. The cost to raise CEC significantly would be exorbitant. I'm unaware of any field study that has tested the resulting increase made by applying humic/fulvic acid to a soil and the length of time an increase, if any, would last.
> 2. Aeration, reduction of soil compaction. Again I'm unaware of any study where an addition of humic substance has been shown to result in a reduction of bulk density. I would think this would be a rather easy test to run. Place the same soil into two graduated column beakers, compact the soil, record the level, add humic acid to one beaker and add water to the other. Record any rise in the level of the soil.
> ...


I wasn't wondering about the effects on CEC on soils from applying humates, more so the effects of mixing with a foliarly absorbed herbicide. If the humates are mixed with prodiamine, I figure that might be fine since humates are a high CEC and will help to hold the prodiamine in the soil. But, what effect will mixing humates with a 3 way be or any other foliarly absorbed herbicide? Does this need to be split into what humates are specifically being used? Humic? Fulvic? I read fulvic moves into the leaf quickly so that helps to bring herbicides into the leaf. But, what about humic? What if you mix it with RGS which has humic, fulvic, and kelp? Sure, the fulvic will help but does the humic reduce some of the efficacy? Would it be best to spray RGS a week apart from spraying a 3 way or combine them?


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

My primary point was the CEC and aeration/reduction in compaction inferences/claims. The comment I made about herbicides and pesticides was just a heads up to a possible issue that has some basis in science/field research. A few years back I was pretty heavy into HS (still am I guess, just not as actively) and while researching I came across more than a few articles about humic/fulvic acid applications interfering with herbicide/pesticide efficacy. As neither is a major component of my program, I didn't pay much attention to the specifics, just noted the relationship for the future. As I recall, the most common ill effect was a relatively fast degradation of applied herbicides. (e.g. an application of a three month barrier of a pre-M would only last a few weeks.) 
FWIW in regard to your specific concerns: Looks like I didn't save much of what I had come across, but this is one study I did bookmark:
http://bioag.com/images/Effecs_of_Humate_Atrazine.pdf


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> My primary point was the CEC and aeration/reduction in compaction inferences/claims. The comment I made about herbicides and pesticides was just a heads up to a possible issue that has some basis in science/field research. A few years back I was pretty heavy into HS (still am I guess, just not as actively) and while researching I came across more than a few articles about humic/fulvic acid applications interfering with herbicide/pesticide efficacy. As neither is a major component of my program, I didn't pay much attention to the specifics, just noted the relationship for the future. As I recall, the most common ill effect was a relatively fast degradation of applied herbicides. (e.g. an application of a three month barrier of a pre-M would only last a few weeks.)
> FWIW in regard to your specific concerns: Looks like I didn't save much of what I had come across, but this is one study I did bookmark:
> http://bioag.com/images/Effecs_of_Humate_Atrazine.pdf


Thanks! Hadn't thought about photodegradation. I was thinking about microbe degradation. According to this study, humic acid causes higher rates of photodegradation than fulvic acid. Very interesting. This thread may have been a tad sidetracked but I really do appreciate you sharing your knowledge!


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

No problem.
As a word of caution to all, just because a relationship and process/interaction is true for one compound (herbicide/pesticide/fungicide), the same processes would apply to all (or any other) compound with the same result. We should always attempt to avoid generalizations. A number of factors can be involved in the final result of diminished or enhanced efficiency of a chemical compound. Things like chemical composition of the compound, soil : % organic matter, % of and type of clay contents, soil texture, sorption (adsorption, absorption and desorption) characteristics of those components and possible increased leaching rates (per ONE study) facilitated by dissolved organic matter (e.g. humic acid) etc. It's a "rabbit hole". Point is I don't think we can confidently say that humic acid additions will positively have no detrimental effect on herbicides/pesticides/fungicides, However, I wouldn't let that prevent me from applying HA and FA,. I'd just keep the possibility of a detrimental interaction in mind if I don't get expected results from a herbicide or pesticide application.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> No problem.
> As a word of caution to all, just because a relationship and process/interaction is true for one compound (herbicide/pesticide/fungicide), the same processes would apply to all (or any other) compound with the same result. We should always attempt to avoid generalizations. A number of factors can be involved in the final result of diminished or enhanced efficiency of a chemical compound. Things like chemical composition of the compound, soil : % organic matter, % of and type of clay contents, soil texture, sorption (adsorption, absorption and desorption) characteristics of those components and possible increased leaching rates (per ONE study) facilitated by dissolved organic matter (e.g. humic acid) etc. It's a "rabbit hole". Point is I don't think we can confidently say that humic acid additions will positively have no detrimental effect on herbicides/pesticides/fungicides, However, I wouldn't let that prevent me from applying HA and FA,. I'd just keep the possibility of a detrimental interaction in mind if I don't get expected results from a herbicide or pesticide application.


Agreed. I was just looking for something more concrete than he said she said. If anyone comes across more studies, please do share them! Much appreciated.


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