# KBG Reno Exploding



## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

I just went through an overhaul of my lawn and hired a power seeding company to put down a 50/50 blend of Mazama and True Blue (Bewitched, Blueberry, and Brooklawn). I did not spray the lawn out (existing grass was 'okay' and healthy), but there were some significant bare spots from grade corrections. The contractor used a very high rate, and ended up using about 80 lbs of seed on my 6500 SF lawn, which comes out to ~12lbs per 1k. I thought he was crazy, but coupled with the cool rainy weather we've had, my lawn has virtually exploded after only 2 weeks.

At the same time, even though regulated with Trinexapac-ethyl (I used Governor G), the existing lawn has already grown to 5+ inches after being initially scalped. Here's my conundrum: The existing lawn is getting very tall, but I still have a large population of sub 1 inch seedlings sprouting all over the place. Do I wait it out and let things keep exploding, or do I risk mowing with my Honda rotary, and then start working it down? I'm leaning towards waiting it out and not ruining a good thing....

At seed down, I used healthy amounts of peat moss, hydretrain, milorganite, and humic acid. I added Scott's starter fert with weed control 9 days ago. Based on the rapid growth, I'm likely going to put down some 19-19-19 in 3 to 4 days at a relatively low rate.

I realize these are good problems to have....


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

If you have good germination in a lot of places, I would cut. And I would do it before applying any more nitrogen.


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## GrassOnTheHills (Jul 3, 2020)

I'll admit I've never done a KBG reno/seeding/etc. but at 12lbs/k, isn't OP risking major overcrowding? The *highest* seed rate I saw in a (quick) Google was 4-6lbs/k, with a TLF thread here citing as low as 2lbs/k. If I'm correct, OP may have some problems on their hand.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

It is my experience that many of your local lawn care companies don't really know much about growing grass. They will fertilize 4x a year, spray for weeds, and mow. This is 'good enough' for 95% (maybe higher) of their client base. I rented a slit seeder from one of my buddies that has his own lawn and landscape company. He said he had it set on 7.5 (out of 10) and told me that is the rate for new lawns with two passes. (He had no idea what kind of seed I was putting down.) It would have dropped somewhere around 5 lbs of KBG seed each pass, 10 lbs total. I wanted to put down approx 2.5 lbs per 1000. I'm sure it would have looked really good initially by putting down 4x more seed than needed. The seeder did not function properly at setting 1 or 1.5 (1-2 lbs per 1000 sq ft) and I ended up not using it. That's probably why they put it down so thick so their seeding machines actually work.

Fast forward a couple of months and the guy I rented the machine from was texting me asking me what kind of seed I used because it was looking so good. I replied low mow blue. That is what everyone around here calls pretty much all KBG. Before I planted I had asked him and my irrigation guys (a different local lawn care company) what varieties of KBG are in the low mow blue they plant. One didn't know and the other responded that theirs is a 70/30 elite KBG and ryegrass blend.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

Appreciate all the inputs. If the slice seeder was wrong, then the damage has already been. In that event, I think I need to strategize how to pull the lawn through. Fertilizer and water go without saying. I'm wondering if maybe I tilt just slightly heavy on the fertilizer to feed the denser population....

From there, I think I'm going to have to be religious with the mowing. If I have fallout from foot traffic, so be it. Additionally, maybe start applying DieaseEx at the preventative rate. I'll need to read to see when and how frequently I can put it down. If I can keep it mowed, fed, and watered, maybe I can limit the amount of attrition. This will be a fun experiment I suppose.

Would welcome any other ideas...


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

LOVE IT

THROW IT DOWNNN.....

yea, I do the same....and I get results. Never overcrowding. dont worry about that, some wont make it anyways.... Since I dont use machines, and just rake some spots...and throw everywhere.....it works for me....

light apps of nitro are great for me........ 1/4 to 1/2lbs shots every couple of weeks....wont hurt a thing.

the kyb takes a while.......but when it pops....WOW..

cut, dont worry....you got enough seed down that when you do kill some, there are plenty waiting to come in....

dont worry too much, its just a lawn, its not a picaso.

good luck to you!!!


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

JERSEY said:


> ...its just a lawn, its not a picaso.


Love this. This is the best advice for anyone in the middle of a seeding project and worried about something going wrong.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

JERSEY said:


> LOVE IT
> 
> THROW IT DOWNNN.....
> 
> ...


It's like you just took a massive weight off my chest. Thank you good sir! You're right, it's just a lawn. Overthinking things will probably just make it worse.


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## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

I keep pointing out things I did wrong and my wife keeps saying "it'll be okay". Basically saying, 'it's grass, not a Picasso.'
Can't argue. But I want to.
Note: we just renovated 60,000 sq ft with seed last week.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In my experience, too much KBG in a renovation is a problem. All those seeds are each individually trying develop roots and grab on to soil moisture and nutrients. Too many mouths to feed and not enough nutrients leads to malnutrition. You get a weak stand that grows slower. It then gets complicated because crowded turf that doesn't grow is more likely to develop fungus. For kbg, I stick to around 2lb/ksqft. If there are thin areas, sure drop more seeds.


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## GrassOnTheHills (Jul 3, 2020)

g-man said:


> In my experience, too much KBG in a renovation is a problem. All those seeds are each individually trying develop roots and grab on to soil moisture and nutrients. Too many mouths to feed and not enough nutrients leads to malnutrition. You get a weak stand that grows slower. It then gets complicated because crowded turf that doesn't grow is more likely to develop fungus. For kbg, I stick to around 2lb/ksqft. If there are thin areas, sure drop more seeds.


This was my experience last year with TTTF. In frustration at a failed initial first seeding I just checked a bunch of seed down and figured the more the merrier. It came in well (see my journal's first post) but when summer hit it was the very first area of the yard to start stressing due to overcrowding. In fact it was really the only area to show signs of stress and was impossible to keep up with. So I was pretty diligent about getting seed rates right with my reno this year and even in my overseeding bare spots I held back because I can always overseed again next year.

Regardless, I think the point still stands that it's just a lawn. It's a freeing mentality to have, and at the end of the day most of us are out there because we like being outside, looking at something we've had a part in making, and just enjoying old fashioned hard work. None of that changes even if things don't go exactly as planned.


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## psider25 (May 4, 2020)

GrassOnTheHills said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > In my experience, too much KBG in a renovation is a problem. All those seeds are each individually trying develop roots and grab on to soil moisture and nutrients. Too many mouths to feed and not enough nutrients leads to malnutrition. You get a weak stand that grows slower. It then gets complicated because crowded turf that doesn't grow is more likely to develop fungus. For kbg, I stick to around 2lb/ksqft. If there are thin areas, sure drop more seeds.
> ...


I have been thinking about this a lot lately.... had some heavy rain that washed the seed into small piles and it is now germinating really thick in those places. Do I just leave these be or will I need to take any proactive action to thin them out at some point? The piles are germinating thick, but the rest of the lawn is germ fairly thin, however it is still early (day 8 since seed down) and haven't had much sun the last week.


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## GrassOnTheHills (Jul 3, 2020)

psider25 said:


> GrassOnTheHills said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


It's looking like you're getting great germination. If I were you I wouldn't do anything proactively about overcrowding, it's really only an issue if it starts to stress the plant in the future. If you see that in the future you can make a choice to possibly kill off a section and re-plant, but the area you pictured is pretty small and I definitely wouldn't step in and do anything now.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Let it be.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

I keep going back and forth on this in my head. I'm not making any plans to try and correct anything, but now I'm really interested in the proposed problem. If the grass is well taken care of, and if a fungicide is used, when will the turf begin to actually display symptoms of overcrowding, and what will they be? To achieve very dense turf on golf courses, the grass has to be very tightly knit as well, so at what point does overcrowding delineate from purposely designed thick turf?


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## psider25 (May 4, 2020)

GrassOnTheHills said:


> psider25 said:
> 
> 
> > It's looking like you're getting great germination. If I were you I wouldn't do anything proactively about overcrowding, it's really only an issue if it starts to stress the plant in the future. If you see that in the future you can make a choice to possibly kill off a section and re-plant, but the area you pictured is pretty small and I definitely wouldn't step in and do anything now.
> ...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

BrainBailey said:


> I keep going back and forth on this in my head. I'm not making any plans to try and correct anything, but now I'm really interested in the proposed problem. If the grass is well taken care of, and if a fungicide is used, when will the turf begin to actually display symptoms of overcrowding, and what will they be? To achieve very dense turf on golf courses, the grass has to be very tightly knit as well, so at what point does overcrowding delineate from purposely designed thick turf?


Golf course also start with a low quantity of seeds (eg. bentgrass). These grasses like KBG, they spread as they mature and develop a root structure that support the grass above. The roots themselves add leaves via rhizomes.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

BrainBailey said:


> I keep going back and forth on this in my head. I'm not making any plans to try and correct anything, but now I'm really interested in the proposed problem. If the grass is well taken care of, and if a fungicide is used, when will the turf begin to actually display symptoms of overcrowding, and what will they be? To achieve very dense turf on golf courses, the grass has to be very tightly knit as well, so at what point does overcrowding delineate from purposely designed thick turf?


My experience with KBG is that the density of the turf will end up being what is suitable for the conditions of that spot, regardless of the initial seeding density. Let's consider a patch of lawn that is a square foot of grass - literally, 12" x 12" in size.

If there were only 1 KBG plant in the center of that square foot, and other plants are kept from growing in that square (by pre-emergents, pulling weeds, etc.), then over the course of time, that 1 KBG plant will spread via rhizomes to make many KBG plants all growing in that 1 square foot region. The number of those plants that can survive in that area without being "overcrowded" will depend upon the resources available to the plant -- primarily sunlight, water, and nutrients (fertilizer). That 1 KBG plant will continue multiplying vigorously in that area while it (and the subsequent offshoots) are undercrowded. Eventually, the density of plants in that area becomes enough that they start competing with one another for resources (sunlight, water, and nutrients) until the multiplying factor is diminished to the point that there is balance between the plant's needs and the resources. At that point, the density of plants in that square foot stabilizes at that level. The specific number of plants that will be depends upon how many resources are available: more plants in a sunny, nutrient-rich soil with the correct amount of water; less plants if it is a shady place, or short on nutrients, or too dry, or too wet, or whatever.

If, however, there were 10 plants in every square inch of that square foot (144 square inches in 1 sqft), there would be 1,440 KBG plants in that square foot. (That's too many, by the way.) They would all be competing for the sunlight, water, and nutrients that are there. However, there aren't enough resources for all of them to be healthy. They will all be struggling. Some will be a little better off than others, either due to randomness or a slight head start. Those ones will do okay, while some others die off due to malnourishment. All will slow down in their growth, and none will be spreading, since there aren't enough resources for any of them to put out healthy rhizomes and spread. Some will die out. Some might succumb to disease. Eventually, the excess plants will die out, until the density of plants in that square foot stabilizes at the level that there is a balance between the plant's needs and the resources. (Hey, that sounds just like the undercrowded situation, above....)

Ultimately, for a spreading grass like KBG, either starting condition (too few plants, or too many plants) is going to end up at the same place -- a density of plants in balance for the conditions.

As lawn enthusiasts, though, we want to get to that "happy end state" of healthy grass as soon as possible.

The ideal approach is to have exactly the right number of seedlings in that square foot of soil, so that one kind of just starts off with the right number of plants.

If there are too few plants, then the area starts out thin, and it takes a while for the density to increase to the optimal (desired) amount. My experience is that with well-maintained KBG, going from "thin spot in renovation" of a late summer renovation results in good density by the end of the following spring. (i.e June of the next year).

The danger with an overcrowded area is that it will be okay this fall, when disease pressure is low and there isn't much contention for water, and will even do fine early next spring, but then as next summer starts, will have trouble with severe disease pressure, succumb to disease, and then be reduced to having only a few surviving plants, which will basically put it where the "thinly seeded" KBG is currently, but a year later...

So, the ideal is "just right." The "too thin" side of the ideal is more likely to get to the appropriate level without having to first "crash and burn." The "overcrowded" approach is much more likely to need to "crash and burn" to get to the correct level.

Then again, I've personally had the "crash and burn" problem from a "too thin" situation -- in our 2015 renovation we seeded too late, so it was very thin in spring 2016. I pushed fertilizer heavily, leading to abundant spring growth and rapidly spreading grass. It filled in very fast and looked great at the beginning of July, but went into summer too vigorously and the lush growth succumbed to disease, so I ended up losing most of it by the middle of September. So, I kind of ended up back where I started, but much wiser the second time around....


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## HudsonValleyFescue (Aug 10, 2020)

JERSEY said:


> dont worry too much, its just a lawn, its not a picaso.
> 
> good luck to you!!!


But what if I want' a Picasso!


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

@ken-n-nancy Beautiful write up. That's inline with the train of thought I was also having. So, as said, if you boil the problem down to a macro level, too little or too much seed doesn't really matter. At the end of the day, the turf will naturally find it's happy optimum based on the conditions you help provide. I'd rather have die off of my desirable grass as opposed to too little, which leaves room for weeds and grasses I don't want. Isn't that what we're all doing anyways, trying to prevent disease and minimize loss all year? Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here. There's also the consideration of wasted cost on seed, but let's pretend that doesn't matter because that variable can easily be controlled.


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## mobiledynamics (Aug 9, 2020)

When I've overseeded and have observed too -dense-, I will just take the soil probe to take small little cores just to nuke some out and there be room for more air


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

yes....I agree......pretty much

yes, more seed than needed can in theory cause overcrowding.

however, some wont germinate, squirrels-birds like to eat and other issues of course...walking--mowing....

so ..pick your poison. ME? I LIKE to throw it down, it will struggle either way, best to have more to start off with...but everyone can form their own game plan.

I really like thick turf....and I love KYB.....but it takes so darn long to pop after germination......

I just redid my 10k under the trees......midnight....got a nice deal from outside pride 50lbs for 191 shipped with 10% coupon.
5 days germination......and yes I went heavy. Birds love it too!!!

everyone here has valuable experience....we all help each other with sharing experiences. I have sand here....so its extra tough. I need a crap load of N....more than people with clay or other mixes.

enjoy! we got 6-8 weeks left...then its overrrr



ken-n-nancy said:


> BrainBailey said:
> 
> 
> > I keep going back and forth on this in my head. I'm not making any plans to try and correct anything, but now I'm really interested in the proposed problem. If the grass is well taken care of, and if a fungicide is used, when will the turf begin to actually display symptoms of overcrowding, and what will they be? To achieve very dense turf on golf courses, the grass has to be very tightly knit as well, so at what point does overcrowding delineate from purposely designed thick turf?
> ...


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

HudsonValleyFescue said:


> JERSEY said:
> 
> 
> > dont worry too much, its just a lawn, its not a picaso.
> ...


hahaa

well......um...........paint one and put it in the garage?

LOL


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

g-man said:


> In my experience, too much KBG in a renovation is a problem. All those seeds are each individually trying develop roots and grab on to soil moisture and nutrients. Too many mouths to feed and not enough nutrients leads to malnutrition. You get a weak stand that grows slower. It then gets complicated because crowded turf that doesn't grow is more likely to develop fungus. For kbg, I stick to around 2lb/ksqft. If there are thin areas, sure drop more seeds.


This right here is spot on. In parts of my reno that had major washout, where the seeds accumulated - the grass plants/blades look very young still. They are overcrowded and family fighting for nutrients. Much of these areas are still dormant and on the yellow side...from fighting for N.

The areas where it was thin are developing a beautiful deep color this early in Spring. Beautiful healthy plants with multiple blades are visible closeup.

I'll take some pictures tomorrow. I'm actually trying to "thin" out the overcrowded areas through scarifying. That's right...I am trying to "thin" out areas of my young reno!!


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

ok......lets here an update then.



BrainBailey said:


> I just went through an overhaul of my lawn and hired a power seeding company to put down a 50/50 blend of Mazama and True Blue (Bewitched, Blueberry, and Brooklawn). I did not spray the lawn out (existing grass was 'okay' and healthy), but there were some significant bare spots from grade corrections. The contractor used a very high rate, and ended up using about 80 lbs of seed on my 6500 SF lawn, which comes out to ~12lbs per 1k. I thought he was crazy, but coupled with the cool rainy weather we've had, my lawn has virtually exploded after only 2 weeks.
> 
> At the same time, even though regulated with Trinexapac-ethyl (I used Governor G), the existing lawn has already grown to 5+ inches after being initially scalped. Here's my conundrum: The existing lawn is getting very tall, but I still have a large population of sub 1 inch seedlings sprouting all over the place. Do I wait it out and let things keep exploding, or do I risk mowing with my Honda rotary, and then start working it down? I'm leaning towards waiting it out and not ruining a good thing....
> 
> ...


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

Lawn was looking absolutely fantastic at the end of last season. I had a few gawkers and lots of comments, which felt real nice for how far I brought everything in one season.

The KBG is still waking up and looking okay. Like others, I was hit with snow mold especially bad. Not sure how much will make it back, but it looks better everyday. Excited to see how much it takes off once the warmer weather hits, we're still hovering the in the 40s.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

Here's a photo of the lawn last fall. Took this in early October.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

so.....is the turf overcrowded?
did too much seed cause turf loss?

love to hear the progess during the year.

my kbg is already deep dark green ( with 1 lb N 3 weeks ago and some fas) but still sloww growth.
on the other hand, my mothers tttf mix is growing hog wild. amazing the diff in specie growth habits. I certainly get lower N rates with fescue......but kbg eats more with less effect. at least in my experiences in my soil.

I hope you enjoy all your work. looks nice


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## psider25 (May 4, 2020)

@JERSEY I had the same thing from my bewitched reno. The thin areas are a unbelievable dark color this spring, but thick areas much lighter.

On the flip side poa a I think is creeping in all over one of the thin areas , but the thick patches have choked out any weeds.


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## JERSEY (Sep 9, 2018)

i get different results than you


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