# Lack of dark green color



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

I have noticed my neighbor's yard has much darker green grass. It has been like this for a few years, regardless of how little or how much I fertilize. I do know I've have soil pH issues (acidic) in the past. Every spring for 3 years I've done a soil test but didn't this year because UMass extension shut down because of COVID. I also didn't lime this spring (yet) because I didn't want to go to the store. I've looked at the nutrient availability charts and they seems to show that iron is more available to the turf in lower pH soils, so I'm surprised why with low pH I am still having less of a dark green color for my grass. Wouldn't having a lower pH actually make it more available to the turf and therefore it would show more dark green?










Here is some history so it is more clear:

2020
• pH unknown (didn't test)
• 1 application of fertilizer this year, 18-0-1 Green Punch (about 0.25lb N/1000)

2019
• pH of 5.4 (odd that is was lower than prior year - maybe I tested soil at a different depth?)
• Amendments - lots of lime throughout seasons. According to my notes, I used 18 30lb (which is a total of 540lbs) bags of Sta Green Rapid Lime (which is Solucal calcitic lime). These were all put down at various times from spring to fall.
• Fert - Carbon X, LESCO 21-0-21, Ringer (all at various amounts throughout the season)

2018
• pH 6.2 (odd that is was better a year prior to 2019's pH)
• Amendments - only a single 54lb bag of JG Mag-i-cal lime in early fall for 10,000sf of lawn
• Fert - LESCO starter (18-24-12), Ringer, Milorganite (all at various amounts throughout the season)


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Do you have the full soil test? You may have low iron level, or another deficiency/excess that is reducing iron availability. You can alway spray iron foliarly and bypass any soil interactions if you don't like the color. The pH of 6.2 likley isn't the problem.

Your neighbor may also have genetically darker green grass. To fix that you need new grass.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin (Sep 6, 2019)

^ +1

I agree with @bernstem

Foliar micronutrient app will probably take care of it. Also, add some more N if you can. 0.50-0.75 lbs N per month would be my target for May in Mass.


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

This is good feedback, thank you!

Totally understand it could be the variety and type of grass difference. I looked at their grass and it looks similar to mine - typical NE mix of some fescue (fine), KBG, and rye.

I used 18-0-1 which does have some iron in it, and since its liquid fert, I assume it will take it in foliaarly.

Here is the last full soil test from 2019 for reference:


----------



## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

When was your lawn planted? All the grass around me was grown in the early 2000's, and probably from cheap seed. So my newer cultivars which are just genetically darker stay darker during winter than theirs do at any point of the year.

My guess is if you overseeded with a new PRG/TTTF blend it would darken up considerably.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin (Sep 6, 2019)

All Day NPK said:


> This is good feedback, thank you!
> 
> Totally understand it could be the variety and type of grass difference. I looked at their grass and it looks similar to mine - typical NE mix of some fescue (fine), KBG, and rye.
> 
> ...


You're low on P and K and a handful of micronutrients. This is almost certainly the cause. Do you have any other GCF products like MicroGreene? You need micros but you have to get that P and K up. What fertilizers do you have on hand?


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

All Day NPK said:


> I have noticed my neighbor's yard has much darker green grass. It has been like this for a few years, regardless of how little or how much I fertilize. I do know I've have soil pH issues (acidic) in the past. Every spring for 3 years I've done a soil test but didn't this year because UMass extension shut down because of COVID. I also didn't lime this spring (yet) because I didn't want to go to the store. I've looked at the nutrient availability charts and they seems to show that iron is more available to the turf in lower pH soils, so I'm surprised why with low pH I am still having less of a dark green color for my grass. Wouldn't having a lower pH actually make it more available to the turf and therefore it would show more dark green?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not trying to derail your post but I notice that you got your soil test done with UMass, I still haven't received mine from early March. When did you get your results?


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

I see sandy soil. Very low pH, borderline low Phos, very low K. Fe levels are good. My guess is that general nutrient deficience is hurting you. Depending on how much P and K you added last year, you may very well still be deficient wich can lead to off color. I would retest this year and amend accordingly. There are numerous commercial labs that are still open. Waypoint seems to be popular. I have used Logan Labs, but they charge more for macronutrient recommendations.

Heavy lime applications also raise the surface pH temporarily until they work into the soil and that may have bound up some Iron and lightened the turf (especially if you were applying max rate monthly). That should have started to equilibrate, but different limes work at different speeds. If you used Dolomitic lime, then it will take at least a season and up to several years to migrate down the soil profile (sand is faster than clay). Calcitic lime is much faster to migrate into the soil from surface applications. The application rates are different for the two types also.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Your soils needs P, K and Sulfur. It needs pounds of products monthly, not oz from green punch. A balanced fert from the big stores will address the NPK, but not the Sulfur.


----------



## PNW_George (May 28, 2018)

I typically use organic fertilizer but occasionally pick up a bag of Scotts Green Max if I catch the timing right and Costco has it in the store.

My Fine Fescue lawn will never be as dark as KBG or PR but if I have a group of people over and really want to show off the lawn I'll put this down and it will show a darker green within a few days. I'm not one to chase color and while it can be a quick fix, it isn't in my long term program.


----------



## ScottW (Sep 16, 2019)

I would not be waiting on UMass for your results at this point. Pull more cores and send it anywhere that's open.
Waypoint in Richmond, VA processed my test in 2-3 days back in March, 'rona be damned. The S3M test is $16.50.

g-man summarized it in a nutshell... you need pounds of stuff applied to the soil with a spreader, not ounces applied via foliar route from a sprayer.

You can use a 10-10-10 for your N source (cheap at big box/Walmart) to add some P and K. But the K is low enough that it should be further supplemented (K is important for health through summer heat/drought).
There are other fertilizers that also bring some sulfur to the party.
For the K try to get your hands on some potassium sulfate (a.k.a. sulfate of potash or SOP) which is 0-0-50 plus 18% S.
If you can't find SOP and can only find muriate of potash (MOP) then go ahead and use that. It's 0-0-60 and costs much less than SOP but doesn't have the S.
If you use ammonium sulfate for part of your N that will get you some sulfur too. AMS is 21-0-0 plus 24% S and it's fairly cheap at ag/feed stores.

If you added 540 lbs of lime on a 10K lawn that's only 54 lbs per 1000 sqft. Not a huge amount in the grand scheme of pH correction, plus it takes time for it to incorporate and affect pH at root depth. Get a current test with cores pulled from a broad average of your yard and mix it up really well before sending it in.

Organic matter of 2.8% is kinda low too. Mulch mow your leaves in the fall for the free OM.


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

Lots of good feedback here! Thank you! Let me sums things up:

Re: micros - I do have GCF MicroGreen, so I can use that to help with micros.

Re: lime - I used Sta Green Rapid lime which is Solucal and if you look at the label, its really small! I'm hoping it has been working its way in. I picked it because of its ability to works its way in based on the specs.

Re: soil testing - I did not take a sample and send to UMass this year. For anyone waiting on UMass, they said on their website they have the lab shut down right now because of COVID, which is why I didn't send in a sample. I watched their site like a hawk early in the season to see if they would close and they did. I just emailed Sprectrum Analytics the other day for a price list for tests. Even though I did put own some PreM (0-0-7 prodiamine) and 18-0-1, I'm gauging whether I should still take a sample before my next fert app and send it in anyways. At least I can get a decent read on P and K overall (might b a bit off?) and other elements.

Re: overall issues - I am seeing a trend in the feedback here. Definitely low on K. I was not so sure about Phos mostly because my soil test from the prior year had me over on Phos (I used to fertilize with Milo a lot). So because I knew K was lower that was my reasoning for buying and using the LESCO 21-0-21 last year. At the end of the year I tried to go to SiteOne and buy 0-0-50 SOP but they were all out. I wanted to try agian this spring but then COVID hit.

Overall feedback I am hearing it I probably need to focus on increasing Phos, but even more so on K which I know is an issue. Micros could use a boost, keep liming properly, and really I probably should get a soil test from someone else, even though I already put stuff down. Anyone have any thing else I missed?

Thank you again!


----------



## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

Does anyone believe that 18 bags of fast acting lime could be an issue: "I used 18 30lb (which is a total of 540lbs)"

Thats a lot of fact acting lime. Especially for a lawn that was 6.2 in 2018.


----------



## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

I agree the NPK is a bit out of whack for his report, but honestly unless he knows what the grass he has its a futile effort. As @PNW_George said some varieties are just more pale/neon green, even PRG/TTTF/KBG. Sure he can throw down loads of NPK and Iron and get a punch of green but it wont last more than a week if he has grass with a color score of 5 in NTEP/Rutgers results.
Im not saying you cant get your lawn greener, but have realistic expectations if your lawn is made of 10+ year old seed/sod.


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

robjak said:


> Does anyone believe that 18 bags of fast acting lime could be an issue: "I used 18 30lb (which is a total of 540lbs)"
> 
> Thats a lot of fact acting lime. Especially for a lawn that was 6.2 in 2018.


I agree.

Likely surface pH was (maybe still is) very high limiting iron uptake. Maybe overall pH is too high. I don't know. We need another soil test to determine where to go next. We also don't know how many lbs/1000 sq ft of P and K was applied last year. I am not eager to recommend significant soil correction without a new test.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK I will only add one thing...a suspicion. Something does not add up between the pH, the Ca in the test and the lime added by you. After adding 50lbs/M of lime your pH went 0.8 down and your Ca is very, very low...
And one last thing. How much N do you put per season. Nitrogen drives the bus.


----------



## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

can you post the 2018 test?


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

This is really good info. I am seeing that some might be perplexed by my results. I definitely was a bit surprised with my soils tests when comparing 2017, 2018, and 2019. I suspect one of them (such as 2018?) was off which is throwing in a wrench here. Either because of testing error by UMass (not likely) or me doing a bad sample (possible indeed).

Since people have asked, below are my three soils tests from 2017, 2018, and 2019. I am also including my fertilization history for the 2019 season.

Note: I have 10,000 sf of lawn, but really I only care about the 8,000 sf that boxes around my house. The remaining 2,000 sf is a bit off the main area and really just extra landscape that I don't care too much about right now. It's heavily shaded and I test it via soil tests separately from the rest of the main 8,000 because it seems to be worse. Soil tests below account for the main area of 8,000 sf.

*Soil Test 2017 (first year owning house and testing) - front yard*



*Soil Test 2017 (first year owning house and testing) - back yard*



*Soil Test 2018 - single test for whole area*



*Soil Test 2019 - single test for whole area*



No test done yet for 2020. I suppose I can send one to Spectrum Analytics.

Treatment history for 2019 season - only including major NPK amounts, not fungicides, herbicides, etc unless they have NPK in them. These are the totals for each product summed up throughout the year. They are not in order of application or showing individual application amounts, just seasonal sums:


Carbon X (24-0-4): 40lb

Dithopyr 0-0-20: 40lb

LESCO 21-0-21: 40lb

Prodiamine 0-0-7: 50lbs

Ringer 10-0-6: 50lb


----------



## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

Yes, 2018 soil test is very different from the other 2 years. Can you describe your sampling method?

The issue is with "fast acting lime" compared with "regular" lime. Fast lime is meant to be used at approximate 10 lb per K and is used for a quick lift in PH. It is 4-5 times as expensive as regular lime. You placed about 50 lb per K ( the correct amount of "regular" lime but too much "fast"). I am just not sure how this will react in the soil.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK your N input is below 3lbs/M 2.3 to be exact. This is barely acceptable if you have zero deficiencies in your soil, which is not the case. I am sure you can do the math (we can help if needed here), but start with:
5lbs N/M; Fast-slow-fast Nitrogen, spring-summer-fall
5lbs K/M; not more than 1lbs per app, no K apps after end of Sept. In other words 1lb of K monthly May-Sept
30-40lbs/M Calcitic lime 2 times for the season
Micronutrients blend (multiple apps)
Some P (to bring things up in the mid range)

Your CEC is low and things should start moving to the right direction rapidly.
You can also check those calculators to finetune your approach, but for now I would stay away. I've seen people rushing and trying to put all nutrients needed in a single season. Your sandy soil, won't hold it well.
https://norganics.com/index-2/calculation-pages/


----------



## ahur (Oct 4, 2019)

Babameca said:


> @All Day NPK your N input is below 3lbs/M 2.3 to be exact. This is barely acceptable if you have zero deficiencies in your soil, which is not the case. I am sure you can do the math (we can help if needed here), but start with:
> 5lbs N/M; Fast-slow-fast Nitrogen, spring-summer-fall
> 5lbs K/M; not more than 1lbs per app, no K apps after end of Sept
> 30-40lbs/M Calcitic lime 2 times for the season
> ...


I'm following this thread, but I have a point of clarification. What do you mean by '/M'? Is that shorthand for 'per thousand square feet'?


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@ahur Confirmative


----------



## ahur (Oct 4, 2019)

@Babameca Thank you.


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

This is good feedback everyone. Really eye-opening with the use of fast acting calcitic lime. There's a local feed store that sells 40lb bags of dolomitic lime (that what was meant by "regular lime" right?) for about $4 bag so I might buy and use some more of those.

Re: fert rates this year, I'm struggling to find good sources of K. I do have left over 18-24-12 and 21-0-21. Both are fairly easy for me to get at SiteOne. I'm struggling to find large amounts of 0-0-50 or 0-0-60. I've called 3 local farm supply / feed stores and none of them sell these. I do have a local SiteOne I plan to call. Anyone else have any ideas where I can course more K? I would really like to follow though with the recommendation of 1lb of K per 1000 sf each month for the next 5 months. Time is ticking!

Thanks again everyone for the useful info here. You are really making me question what I have done thus far


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

I wouldn't lime without another soil test.

Your best bet for P and K are agricultural feed stores, commercial landscape suppliers (they will almost always sell to homeowners), and online. 0-0-50 is preferred over 0-0-60. They both add K. 0-46-0 is triple super phosphate (adds P) and harder to source than 0-0-50/60. You can use a starter like 18-24-6/12 for the P and Nitrogen and a little K. It is usually fast nitrogen so be carful applying in summer. Another option is a balanced fertilizer (e.g. 10-10-10/13-13-13/20-20-20/etc.). They are also ussually fast acting Nitrogen so be careful in summer, but they would be a good option for spring and fall to add both P and K.

Again, I would strongly recommend another soil test. You have an outlier test in 2018, and we have no idea where your pH is with last year's lime applications. Adding a couple pounds per 1000 sq ft of P and K is likely OK with your past tests and applications, but we don't really know with that wierd 2018 test. If you do overshoot on P and K, that is unlikely to cuase a problem.

If you do soil test, you want to do it before any P or K applications (or 30 days after application) as they can throw the test off if you get some fert in the sample.

If you need help figuring out how much to use for one application, let us know what the product is and we can help you work it out.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK Dolomitic lime is Ca to Mg ratio of 2:1. In soil you aim more 6:1. Your Mg is in range. Ca is critically low.
@bernstem is all Calcitic 'fast' ? How can you tell the difference. I am jumping on pH buffering too, and dont want to do mistakes here.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@robjak the effect on the soil to change pH is roughly the same between fast and regular. Fast acting needs to be applied more often at lower rates. Fast acting is basically a finer grind of the same material. Think of it as black pepper and ground black pepper.

@All Day NPK how much lime/ksqft did they recommend in your soil test in 2019? Did you apply it?

I would discard the 2018 results since they don't fit the other two and your region. You need P, K, lime and nitrogen. A test from Waypoint, Ward, Midwest, Spectrum(pay extra for the sulfur) should all give you a better picture.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@g-man Thanks for the clarification on lime. I was bumping my head how CaCO3 can be different...types. I am assuming that SGN drives the speed. Right? On my bags rate per app is 10-12lbs/M for correction so I guess it is 'fast acting'.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Not the SGN. Some of the finer materials is then mixed/blended and formed into pellets to use in a spreader(SGN).


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

g-man said:


> @All Day NPK how much lime/ksqft did they recommend in your soil test in 2019? Did you apply it?


The UMass soil tests said to apply 75lb of lime per 1000sf, but "do not topdress with more than 50 lb limestone per 1000 sq ft at one time. Split the above application between early spring and midautumn"

That's why I had put down 54lb per 1000sf of Rapid Lime over several applications. I picked Sta Green rapid lime (Solucal) because it seemed to be the most fine of them all and thus the fastest. I have Home Depot and Lowes nearby so I could look at other cheaper options.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you did 54lb/k, you still need to do 21lb/k more. Fast or slow wont matter.

Collect a soil sample (multiple samples mixed together from multiple areas of the lawn) before you add the lime and send it to someone.


----------



## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

G-man, My concern was that the top layer of soil could be much higher from the fast acting lime. Just not sure how fast it will make it down through the soil.

Regular lime can be Dolomitic or Calcitic. Regular was probably not a good term to use.


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

Babameca said:


> 5lbs K/M; not more than 1lbs per app, no K apps after end of Sept. In other words 1lb of K monthly May-Sept


So I got 100lb of 0-0-50 (SOP). It was expensive and had to go to SiteOne.

You said I should put down 2lb of product which is 1lb of K per 1000 every month for the next 5 months. Question: since I have low-ish CEC, is there a limit to the amount the soil can really take at once and would it be possible that I would be putting too much so often that it could go to waste?

I believe the rule of thumb heard for N is (CEC x 2) = maximum amount an acre can take at once without waste. So 8 CEC would be (8x2)/43.56 = 0.36 lbs of N per single application. Does a similar formula exist for K? Is it the same formula? Or maybe the ratio of N to K, so same formula divided by 2?

I want to make sure I don't apply too much too soon and possibly waste anything.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK CEC definitely has an influence of how fast soil properties change after an input. Nitrogen is a very different animal though. You can either apply it every 2 weeks at 0.5lb or 1lb of product, or if you want to go slower, go even lower, but keep in mind that for your CEC and your K ppm, this is what it takes to get in range. Potassium tends to 'stick' in soil.


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

I got my latest tests. I did 4 from Spectrum Analytic, two are small areas redone that were hydroseeded a few years ago and didn't come out so well, the other two are larger areas of about 3500sf.

I have posted my plan (just my NPK details) for the rest of the year here.

Test 1:









Test 2:









Test 3:









Test 4:


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK I would play/add Calcitic and/or Dolomitic lime in different areas. Your overall Ca and Mg levels are low and 3 out of 4 results pH allows for it (pH at 5.5 actually needs it). The 1st area, if you want to be perfect will need Gypsum and Epsom salt, but I assume you can also compensate with ferts that are high on those 2.
You CEC are low, so adding 2lbs of K (as per your other post) at once is not a good idea. Sandy soil change fast, but need spoon feeding not only for N.


----------



## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Can you add P and/or K at anytime? Or should it be avoided certain moths?


----------



## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

Ohio Lawn said:


> Can you add P and/or K at anytime? Or should it be avoided certain moths?


Not sure about P but I believe K should be avoided in the fall


----------



## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

davegravy said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > Can you add P and/or K at anytime? Or should it be avoided certain moths?
> ...


Are you certain? I thought Purdue states late summer and late fall are ideal times to fertilize with potassium. I could be wrong.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Ohio Lawn Yes. No more than 0.75K at once. Avoid adding K late fall.
K is very beneficial for stress recovery. So spring, early summer and late summer are good moments for normal regiment. In your case you will need 3 more apps (assuming you put already the 2 lbs).
Latest studies show higher snow mold damage when K is applied late fall


----------



## All Day NPK (Feb 17, 2019)

Babameca said:


> The 1st area, if you want to be perfect will need Gypsum and Epsom salt, but I assume you can also compensate with ferts that are high on those 2.


Sorry for my ignorance, but what would Gypsum and Epsom salt do? What nutrients will they help with that I am lacking? I thought Gypsum was the opposite of lime in that it would lower the pH. Thanks for you this feedback, I'm just trying to understand.


----------



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@All Day NPK Gypsum adds Ca and Epsom Salt Mg, without altering the pH.
When pH is on target, those are the 2 products, that will bring Ca and/or Mg up.


----------

