# MichiganGreen Journal - Overseed



## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Unsure what was turf was previously here but I overseeded on labor day with 50lbs GCI TTTF and 25lbs Cornell Classic which is 70%KBG, 20% PRG and 10% hard fescue. I've been watering 15-20 mins per station every 6 hours. 4 days in you may have seen my posts of an ex lawn guy putting down blanket post emergent. Finally you will see a few areas that look awful. that's what I'm getting the extra topsoil and seed for...they were empty beds and one area was where we took a large tree down last summer.

Those are all the big points worth mentioning.

I'd say I'm pretty happy with about 70% of the lawn but there are a few areas that i whiffed on because they're on slopes and I stupidly waited to spread tackifying straw until about 3 days in. We also got moles in the front which I put down bait for yesterday. Hopefully hes gone...

I got merit down in the front in case he was eating something in there but my Scott's spreader cried uncle and i have a new agri fab on the way to finish the job.

Tomorrow I'm picking up more tack, and whatever closest tall fescue (prob about 10 pounds) i can find to touch up the areas along with topsoil for some of the areas that need it as a seed bed. It definitely could be rolled flatter but im not aiming for perfectly level...some of the areas probably would have seeded had I done that but I have a new baby in the house and with 17k I can only lend so much time each evening. Main focus is to get grass coverage.

Any advice greatly appreciated. Be gentle. Lol


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

My eyesight isn't what it once was but trying to look at the pics, for KBG looks like you have adequate coverage overall and too much water in the bare spots. Cut the water so there's no standing water or out and out wet spots and give it adequate fert. It will fill in over time.

I think it is likely too late to seed more KBG where you are.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> My eyesight isn't what it once was but trying to look at the pics, for KBG looks like you have adequate coverage overall and too much water in the bare spots. Cut the water so there's no standing water or out and out wet spots and give it adequate fert. It will fill in over time.
> 
> I think it is likely too late to seed more KBG where you are.


Thanks...out of all of this only about 20% is kbg, the rest is tttf and rye. That's why I'm still watering though because based on what ivr read on germination times, the kbg still may not have sprouted.

Regarding time i know its tight and I'm going to seed fescue to try and get a little bit of rooting.

Are the pics fuzzy? Only way i could upload them is to downsize. Sorry bout that.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

@LawnSolo , @Mozart

We have been talking quite a while on this....any input? I hope you can see the pics ok, I had to size them down to upload. Only took pics of the worst areas for the most part (and the mole tunnels...)


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

If you have extra seed, throw it down. The rye and fescue should have time to germinate and establish. How hot was it after you seeded? I had 90 degree temps and found myself watering lightly every 60-90 minutes from 10-4. Otherwise the ground didn't stay wet. If it was hot like that for you, then likely the seed dried out.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

samjonester said:


> If you have extra seed, throw it down. The rye and fescue should have time to germinate and establish. How hot was it after you seeded? I had 90 degree temps and found myself watering lightly every 60-90 minutes from 10-4. Otherwise the ground didn't stay wet. If it was hot like that for you, then likely the seed dried out.


I don't have extra - just such a perfectionist that those bare spots will bug the heck out of me - won't get them perfect but I want to cover at least a little bit more while there might be time. So I'll get the best I can find locally this afternon...

It was definitely well into the 90's probably low 90's up to 95 one or two days, but a solid upper 80's really for almost a full week. My timer only goes down to every 6 hours unfortunately - but it appears to have worked.

One of my biggest problem areas is a place where I spilled some milo accidentally and it burned - that was about a month ago so hopefully that has burned through and the new soil will allow me to start fresh.

Talking about soil though - they do have different brands and prices of top soil, have you found the cheaper stuff to have weeds in it? Honestly if there are a few I won't lose sleep, so long as the grass grows - I can take care of the weeds later...


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

As @samjonester I would throw more seeds with some peat moss on those bare spots.
The Jonathan Green Black Beauty mix will blend just fine. That's what I would do.

My lawn is originally Black Beauty now overseeded with my new blend.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@MichiganGreen This looks like a lawn journal. Do you want me to move it to the Journal section? It helps to have all your lawn pictures, products application and progress in one thread. That way the recommendations from members have some context and background to them.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

g-man said:


> @MichiganGreen This looks like a lawn journal. Do you want me to move it to the Journal section? It helps to have all your lawn pictures, products application and progress in one thread. That way the recommendations from members have some context and background to them.


Sure! Sorry, if that would be more hlepful both to me and others absolutely - I haven't used the journal before.

Thank you sir!


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Hey @MichiganGreen, I'm pretty new to this lawn stuff to be honest and wouldn't want to give you bad advice. However I will tell you what I'm thinking and you can consider it along with the other responses 

20% KBG by weight is more than 20% KBG by seed count. I'm not sure what hard fescue is but it sounds like a type of fine fescue. I'm assuming 475k seeds per pound.

KBG is 1.4 million seeds per pound, TTTF is 225k seeds per pound and rye is 240k seeds per pound.

With that information in mind, your mix (GCI + Cornell combined) is about 64% KBG by seed count, so you should expect gaps to fill in with proper maintenance.

I would say that a little extra seed in the bare areas would not hurt, but if I were in your situation I would focus on nurturing what you have. Try to get the baby KBG to grow and spread as much as possible before the growing season is over. It's amazing how fast it spreads if the conditions are favorable.

Regarding the tree take down area: I wonder if the chemistry of the soil is unfavorable for grass. Was the stump ground up? We're wood chips left in the hole? If water is draining too fast or nutrients are not available this area might struggle.

The area by your sidewalk looks bone dry - is that area getting ample water?

Since you are overseeding i doubt erosion and washout will be major concerns. The existing grass and root structure should help keep things in place (relative to seeding on bare soil).


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

LawnSolo said:


> As @samjonester I would throw more seeds with some peat moss on those bare spots.
> The Jonathan Green Black Beauty mix will blend just fine. That's what I would do.
> 
> My lawn is originally Black Beauty now overseeded with my new blend.


Have you seen this at any big box stores? I would prefer something like that but they seem to only have Sta-Green, Pennington and Scotts...


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

I get mine from my local Gemmens (ACE) store.

Try this locator: http://www.jonathangreen.com/jonathan-green-store-locator.html


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

LawnSolo said:


> I get mine from my local Gemmens (ACE) store.
> 
> Try this locator: http://www.jonathangreen.com/jonathan-green-store-locator.html


ahhh yep that works - frustrating, a few Ace's around me to carry it but not all - I'll do a bit of driving but I think it's worth it. What mix did you use?


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

Black Beauty Ultra it's a very nice and dark blend.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> LawnSolo said:
> 
> 
> > I get mine from my local Gemmens (ACE) store.
> ...


Do you know what is in the Original mix? I'm tight for time and I doubt I could get KBG to stick at this point. That's why I was looking for more of a Rye/Fescue.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

The pictures are a little fuzzy but it looks like you have germination in the bare spot in the third pic.

Why not push the baby KBG via a fall N blitz as I suggested above and hope it fills in by next spring?

According to your seed selection you are only applying 3% rye by seed count, so if you go pure rye the bare areas may look markedly different.


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > LawnSolo said:
> ...


Found this


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## LawnNeighborSam (Aug 14, 2018)

Love the name black beauty - if that doesn't account for 70%+ of its sales I would be shocked. I almost bought some a few weeks back


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

LawnSolo said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > MichiganGreen said:
> ...


Nice, I appreciate this, I might be ok here, as it's still mostly fescue and rye - and the KBG would only be a bonus if it worked out. I'm sure when I get to the store I will be able to read a label on the original mix.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@MichiganGreen It is here now.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Cheers, thanks @g-man


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

This is the trouble area where we had a large tree removed ... past few days I've noticed him this in here more and more. Very bright green, strong looking stuff. What is it and how to treat?

Keeping in mind I have fresh seed and germination throughout.....

Thanks!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@MichiganGreen I moved this to your journal.

It sure looks like quackgrass. Round up is the effective solution for quack.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> This is the trouble area where we had a large tree removed ... past few days I've noticed him this in here more and more. Very bright green, strong looking stuff. What is it and how to treat?
> 
> Keeping in mind I have fresh seed and germination throughout.....
> 
> Thanks!


Thanks. When you say roundup....do you mean as in non selective? Or can I use a crabgrass treatment like quinclorac? Have all this new grass there.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> Thanks. When you say roundup....do you mean as in non selective? Or can I use a crabgrass treatment like quinclorac? Have all this new grass there.


Quackgrass is one of the weeds for which there isn't a good selective herbicide. It also doesn't get eliminated easily by hand-pulling, at quackgrass develops extensive rhizomes beneath the soil that won't get removed when hand-pulling, but will just grow back up into new quackgrass plants in a couple weeks.

I've never had to deal with quackgrass myself, but if the quackgrass-infested area isn't too big, I've heard of folks having success literally "hand-painting" glyphosate using the following technique. (I've not used this approach for quackgrass, but have used it for nutsedge. For nutsedge, though, if the plants are new ones that came in by seed, rather than an established patch, careful hand-pulling works.)


Since the quackgrass grows faster, wait a few days since the prior mowing (basically, just before you're about to mow the good grass. The quackgrass will then be a couple inches taller than the good turf.
Put on some chemical-proof gloves, and then on one hand, right over the top of the chemical-proof glove, put on a thin absorbent glove.
Put a small amount of mixed (properly diluted) glyphosate in the bottom of a bucket. Choose a bucket that you can hold with your one-glove hand, and reach into with the double-gloved hand without having any danger of spilling the bucket.
Dip just the fingertips of your double-gloved hand into the mixed (diluted) glyphosate solution. The goal is to have the absorbent glove be moistened but not soaked. You don't want the glove to be actually dripping, just well moistened.
Use the moistened, double-gloved hand to "paint" the leaves of the quack grass. You only need to paint the couple inches of quackgrass blades that are up above the good grass. In this way, it's pretty easy to quickly moisten only the quackgrass with getting glyphosate on the good grass. I find it easiest to just lightly squeeze the blades of weedy grass between your thumb and a couple fingers and then pull one's hand upwards, letting the blade of weedy grass slide between your fingers in the process. This deposits glyphosate on that plant.
Have a plan of where you're going to walk when doing this, so that you don't have to walk through painted quackgrass (or you'll get the solution on your shoes, and then on the good grass).
After painting all the quackgrass, carefully rinse out the glyphosate-wettened glove so that it is no longer full of glyphosate. Do this while still wearing the chemical-proof gloves. As a bonus, doing this will also clean off the chemical-proof gloves too, while you're at it. By the way, make sure the rinsate isn't going on to your lawn. If you have an area of crushed rock on your property where you don't want any plants growing, that's a great place to do this.
Wait until at least the next day or two before mowing. The quackgrass won't yet look like it's being affected, but by then, the glyphosate will have translocated to the rest of the plant and it's pretty much doomed, even if you mow off the "painted" portion.


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## Grasshopper (Nov 12, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > This is the trouble area where we had a large tree removed ... past few days I've noticed him this in here more and more. Very bright green, strong looking stuff. What is it and how to treat?
> ...


Yes, non selective.

It does look a lot like the quack patches i had. If it is (check for clasping auricles & tough, wiry, white rhizomes) I would nuke it asap. Spent a lot of time and effort battling it this season...

If you want to save any good grass you can try just "paint" the quack leaves, being careful not to get any contact on new grass.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks. When you say roundup....do you mean as in non selective? Or can I use a crabgrass treatment like quinclorac? Have all this new grass there.
> ...


This is incredibly helpful, thank you. Couple things

1. This is a pretty devastating weed. Why dont we hear more about it?
2. Will preemergent help avoid next season?
3. Is it related, do you think, to the huge tree that was here last summer? I don't see it anywhere else. 
4. Any sense in waiting until spring, or even a bit later in fall, or will it simply spread too quickly.

Thanks again for the detailed response. In the meantime I'll try soaking it and seeing what I can pull by hand. This area just really doesnt want to play nice since we took the tree out!


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Hmm, thinking more, may try a paintbrush also, if it really comes up above the other turf.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Jconnelly6b his journal is here.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

MichiganGreen said:


> 1. This is a pretty devastating weed. Why don't we hear more about it?


Although a troublesome weed, it's not particularly common in urban or even suburban areas. It tends to be a real issue in agricultural regions, as it is a common weed in agricultural fields and very hard to eliminate completely in an agricultural setting. It is less common in most of suburbia.



MichiganGreen said:


> 2. Will preemergent help avoid next season?


 Probably not, as the quackgrass in your lawn probably isn't getting tall enough to go to seed. It needs to be about a foot tall before generating seedheads, so regular mowing suppresses seed production.



MichiganGreen said:


> 3. Is it related, do you think, to the huge tree that was here last summer? I don't see it anywhere else.


Was there disturbed / bare soil in that area? After the tree was taken down, did you bring in any soil from elsewhere? Seeds generally survive being eaten by animals, so they can be spread by birds.

Your patch could have grown from even a single seed. I've read that even a single quackgrass plant can develop rhizomes that spread to about a 5' radius in a single year. If you have a patch that is smaller than that, it probably developed from a single seed that found just the right place to germinate.



MichiganGreen said:


> 4. Any sense in waiting until spring, or even a bit later in fall, or will it simply spread too quickly.


This is one of those weeds for which you don't want to wait until next week, much less next season. Well, unless you enjoy a good battle and want to let the quackgrass really get going so that you can have more of a challenge!


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > 1. This is a pretty devastating weed. Why don't we hear more about it?
> ...


Haha - battle is the appropriate word. I sprayed QC on the area even though I know it probably wont help....but I have a bunch and saw one post somewhere stating if caught young that might help.

Any case, I just came in from mixing up a little bucket of roundup and tried a foam brush but your glove method was indeed easier.

It will be easier for sure when they are taller than existing turf, but to your point I didnt want to wait. I undboutadly took out some good turf but took some solace in knowing some quack is going down feels better. Maybe now i give it a couple days and reassess...how soon until I see what I killed and what needs to be taken down still? Will be an ongoing battle of glypho and seed, glypho and seed.

By the way, no chance this is Bermuda?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I had random spots of quack grass. I killed with glyphosate. Here is what I did to protect the surrounding turf


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Thanks @g-man for getting me here


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Harts said:


> I had random spots of quack grass. I killed with glyphosate. Here is what I did to protect the surrounding turf


I love this....looking at this though, does not look like what I've got. Mine is much brighter, almost florescent like a yellow highlighter. Curious now. Different types?


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

@MichiganGreen pretty sure @Harts use blue marking dye mixed in with his spray :thumbup:


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> @MichiganGreen pretty sure @Harts use blue marking dye mixed in with his spray :thumbup:


Oh right. Darn. Haha. Well tonight I sprayed it with quinclorac out of frustration more than anything else, then tried to get some of the individual ones with roundup on my gloves.. will give it a few and see where I'll go from there.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I was going to try and paint the blades instead of an all out spray but I figured I'm going to be patching bare spots anyways.....

I'm interested to see how that method turns out for you. Make sure to post pics.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

I will do that. Although I'm in your camp which is why I went at it tonight in addition to the quinclorac. Was frustrated more than anything else.

I really think this is tied into the fact that it sits on top of what once was a large tree, I dont think the soil is any good. If this doesnt do the job I will glypho the large circle, lay a good 5-6 inches of topsoil and totally start fresh.

Will update

@Harts


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> I will do that. Although I'm in your camp which is why I went at it tonight in addition to the quinclorac. Was frustrated more than anything else.
> 
> I really think this is tied into the fact that it sits on top of what once was a large tree, I dont think the soil is any good. If this doesnt do the job I will glypho the large circle, lay a good 5-6 inches of topsoil and totally start fresh.
> 
> ...


Did you remove all of the chips and sawdust when you removed the tree and what kind of tree was it?


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> MichiganGreen said:
> 
> 
> > I will do that. Although I'm in your camp which is why I went at it tonight in addition to the quinclorac. Was frustrated more than anything else.
> ...


Did the best I could, for sure. It was a cherry maple.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

I believe one of them we covered, quack but please confirm. The other I feel like is sedge, and the final one is bent.

Attacking the quack this fall to get controlled and maybe finish off in spring. The sedge I could spray soon and also finish in the spring. Do pre emergents help with that also?

Finally I think I have bent grass. Tenacity in the spring.

Other opinions, comments? Thanks all!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@MichiganGreen Moved this to your journal.

Yes, quack and bent. The other one I dont know. None are controlled via prem

This link will tell you each weed pre and post control options by weed. https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/weeds-in-turf/ 
FYI -There is a typo in the classification of annual bluegrass, it is a grass instead of a broadleaf. I contacted Dr. Peacock and he is going to fix it.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

g-man said:


> @MichiganGreen Moved this to your journal.
> 
> Yes, quack and bent. The other one I dont know. None are controlled via prem
> 
> ...


There are people elsewhere positing this is annual rye and are pretty confident about it. your thoughts?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Four weeks after germination spray with Tenacity and see what lights up. Tenacity won't kill quack but it will smoke bentgrass and goose grass. I don't think it has any effect on annual rye.

If you're pretty sure you have bentgrass I'd get after it sooner rather than later. It tends to choke out everything else around it. It grows well this time of year.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Four weeks after germination spray with Tenacity and see what lights up. Tenacity won't kill quack but it will smoke bentgrass and goose grass. I don't think it has any effect on annual rye.
> 
> If you're pretty sure you have bentgrass I'd get after it sooner rather than later. It tends to choke out everything else around it. It grows well this time of year.


Thank you Keith. I'm quite confident on the bent....was just tapped out for my lawn fund for the year. can i do it in the spring at the same time as prodiamine?

My biggest concern is this quack/annual rye...both look VERY similar, with VERY different modes of attacking...


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

MichiganGreen said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Four weeks after germination spray with Tenacity and see what lights up. Tenacity won't kill quack but it will smoke bentgrass and goose grass. I don't think it has any effect on annual rye.
> ...


To identify, to be honest I'm not that good at identification for things we don't see a lot of here. When unfamiliar, I identify by susceptibility. Bentgrass is a big problem here and tenacity with triclopyr makes short work of it. Tenacity alone just takes longer and two applications don't hurt but obviously for an overseed situation is the way to go. When budget comes into play, I can relate. Got to prioritize spending priorities. Just do what you can. A landscape overall is a lifetime endeavor. You have time.

I have some small areas with annual rye that pop up noticably in Spring and then quickly die even in (what we call) moderate heat. Once it dies out it looks pretty terrible (I'm picky) as dead growth mixed in with other grass. It also almost certainly germinates in Fall but I don't notice it. I suppose if what you have lasts the Summer, maybe it's not annual rye. Hard to say as our climates may be too different. One thing that sticks out for me is when I let the annual rye grow, it's completely upright and very tall with thin blades. I don't think quack has that growth habit.

If you can spend the time, preemergents Spring and Fall will eliminate the annual rye. If it's quack, obviously that will have basically no effect. Maybe I've been lucky but not seen much quack here. Plenty of goose. Plenty of bentgrass. Some annua. A bit of triv. Too much bermuda. And lots of the usual weeds that are too easy to kill to mention.

Oh and I almost forgot, damn @#$&* thistle. About as bad as bermuda. It just won't die. Too much underground. A bad thistle infestation can take as long as bermuda to really be rid of.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

I still haven't cut....I gotta say I'm pretty blown away by the mesotrione from Scott's starter plus weed preventer. Its very long (existing turf) yet very few weeds. Only find a few when wandering the yard looking closely. And then its a very few.

Next steps after a weekend vacation are first mow and tenacity. What first?


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

First cut since overseed. I was blown away! The front pictured here still had some spot issues with bent on the far side but the thickness and color is what I'm most excited about. I'll mow the back next weekend.


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## LawnSolo (Jul 17, 2018)

@MichiganGreen Looking great buddy! I'm so glad things are working out for you. Weather is getting very nice in my area and the grass is loving it.


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## MichiganGreen (Aug 7, 2018)

LawnSolo said:


> @MichiganGreen Looking great buddy! I'm so glad things are working out for you. Weather is getting very nice in my area and the grass is loving it.


Thanks man! I kept staring while I was mowing, in disbelief. It was as if somebody came and laid sod while I was on vacation. told my wife to take her shoes off and come outside lol - so plush. I've done so much this year though I wish I knew what was affecting it the most between the fert/overseed/much needed aerating. I've also obviously been watering quite a bit due to the overseed but I wonder if that's almost a tease because that's not the way a lawn really should be watered, every 6 hours. I know for proper root development it needs that infrequent deep watering...


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