# Humic acid



## MikeD

I was just looking for some humic acid for lawns and found this. Has anyone tried it the price seems good ??? I know there root Riot product people swear by it ( pot growers especially) and some lawn guys..


----------



## AppTurf-Chris Elms

If you want the best source there is look at RGS by Greene County fertilizer. Tell them I sent you. It's a Humic with Kelp. Cleanest and purest I have found.


----------



## ryeguy

Is there a reason to buy a premade instead of following the "Soil Conditioner and Kelp Help Plus Humates" recipe?


----------



## AppTurf-Chris Elms

Not really other than the process is a long cold brew that takes them 12 weeks. I buy in bulk so making 200-300 gallons isn't an option. If you need a small amount you'd be okay mixing your own. I like Kelp4less for small mixes. Their extreme blend is Humic, kelp and amino acids. Great product.


----------



## MikeD

Thanks Chris, I looked at their website ( Greene county ) they don't have any Price's or no way to order it ?? phone only???


----------



## AppTurf-Chris Elms

I will find out from them and get back to you asap. Don't be afraid of Kelp4less for small batches. They have good powders. I'm all about not paying for water being shipped to me.


----------



## FlyMike

Greene County will sell if you call them. When I talked to them on the phone they said they mainly sell to the professionals in large quantities, but will sell small orders too if you take the time to call them. Shipping will be just as much as your order though. If I remember right, I believe shipping is a flat $30. The RGS was $11 for a gallon jug. I bought 4 1 gallon jugs of different products from them and my total was $76 which included shipping.

I spoke with Brad when I called and he was very friendly and helpful.


----------



## MikeD

That's a great price Mike.. it would be nice if they could get their product to Amazon.. I get free shipping.. thanks for all the information guys I appreciate it. I check out kelp4less first thing popped up was will not ship to California.. which is kind of crazy because I see most of their products in the hydroponics stores. Must be some kind of loophole because I also see a lot of things on Amazon that says will not ship to California but I can buy it there.. I just picked up a bag of potash 0-0-60 but there's nowhere else you can buy it.. they have restrictions on everything over here.. again thank you guys..


----------



## FlyMike

I have also seen RGS for sale on this site in a 5 gallon bucket or 2.5 gallon jug. About the same price though. Don't know what shipping would be I'd if they ship to CA.
https://www.webstore.aquariussupply...oducts&path=Main////Turf+&+Tree+Care+Products


----------



## wardconnor

MikeD said:


> That's a great price Mike.. it would be nice if they could get their product to Amazon.. I get free shipping.. thanks for all the information guys I appreciate it. I check out kelp4less first thing popped up was will not ship to California.. which is kind of crazy because I see most of their products in the hydroponics stores. Must be some kind of loophole because I also see a lot of things on Amazon that says will not ship to California but I can buy it there.. I just picked up a bag of potash 0-0-60 but there's nowhere else you can buy it.. they have restrictions on everything over here.. again thank you guys..


They will ship to CA. I just spoke to them because I will be buying some for myself. You just have to select the CA version. He told me that it is the same stuff just labeled differently so they can differentiate what they shipped to CA so they can pay the respective CA tax.

I will be buying the Extreme Blend and will be using it starting in the spring on my turf grass and all my other annuals and perennials.


----------



## MikeD

Thanks connor good to know.. God forbid California don't get their tax.. that would explain why I see it in the hydroponic stores..


----------



## Ridgerunner

What does Humic acid do and how does it do it? I can't find any academic studies or explanations regarding its use/benefits on the web. Lots of discussion about humic and fulvic acids as a component of humic mater, but nothing how its use as an amendment would improve soil or plant performance.


----------



## g-man

The reference in this msu article has a couple of studies.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug6.pdf


----------



## MikeD

Ridgerunner.. Matt on YouTube ..thegrassfactor.. has some good videos about it when used with your fertilizer. Also one with some before and after shots.. Check him out..


----------



## AppTurf-Chris Elms

Ridgerunner said:


> What does Humic acid do and how does it do it? I can't find any academic studies or explanations regarding its use/benefits on the web. Lots of discussion about humic and fulvic acids as a component of humic mater, but nothing how its use as an amendment would improve soil or plant performance.


Once thought as snake oil because there were no standards ; Humate is mined just above the layer of coal. Humic acid alone is good, kelp alone is good but you add the two together especially when applying your fertilizer applications and you get the most bang for your buck. The two together are pretty impressive. I have noticed on over 50+ acres managed better nutrient uptake, improved soil structure, overall better plant health, deeper color and better resistance to disease. Can you throw away the fungicide.. no however the plant seems to be able to process and outcompete stress and disease better. I buy in bulk so if you have problems getting what you want shoot me a message. It's a great tool on the tool box. Kelp4less offers their extreme blend which combines the two with amino acids in a soluble powder. A little more work and mess than Greene County fertilizer products but a great product. I just prefer the super slow brew process and very sprayer friendly supply I buy in bulk. Overseeded pic using RGS twice and fertilized once


----------



## ryeguy

You've mentioned the slow brew process twice now..what impact does that have on the final product?

The comparison pic is nice but it doesn't let us compare the product in isolation. I'm sure most of the color is just due to the fert app.


----------



## Ridgerunner

MikeD said:


> Ridgerunner.. Matt on YouTube ..thegrassfactor.. has some good videos about it when used with your fertilizer. Also one with some before and after shots.. Check him out..





g-man said:


> The reference in this msu article has a couple of studies.
> I'll check those out, thanks.
> http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug6.pdf


I'll check it out, thanks.

I'm more interested in the application of humic acids and their effect. Sources and effects of plant hormones and nutrients (kelp derivatives, etc.), I can appreciate.


----------



## Ridgerunner

> Humic acid alone is good,


OK, but why and how?


----------



## thegrassfactor

Ridgerunner said:


> MikeD said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ridgerunner.. Matt on YouTube ..thegrassfactor.. has some good videos about it when used with your fertilizer. Also one with some before and after shots.. Check him out..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The reference in this msu article has a couple of studies.
> I'll check those out, thanks.
> http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2001aug6.pdf
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'll check it out, thanks.
> 
> I'm more interested in the application of humic acids and their effect. Sources and effects of plant hormones and nutrients (kelp derivatives, etc.), I can appreciate.
Click to expand...

humic acids alone are just organic acids with lipids. nothing real special as a stand alone product. kelp has a high amount of cytokinins in particular. the benefit of applying the kelp is to increase the presence of cytokinin in relationship to the presence of auxin. Once that greater concentration of cytokinin is present in the plant, an increase in shoot development takes place. shoot development will help fescue or bluegrass have a more "full" appearance, assuming another necessary nutrients are there (humic acid plays into this later). cytokinins also play a role in the plants natural ability to heal itself from damage - avoiding senescence (when a plant ages to the point of potential death).

So with the greater concentration of cytokinin in the plant and all that it entails, the humic acid is there to act as a delivery system for applied nutrients. humic acid (all humic acid extracted in a low pH solution using potassium hydroxide will also contain the smaller particulate make up of humic acid - fulvic acid) will form weak organic bonds with minerals, particularly trace minerals (Fe, Mg, etc) to provide a chelating effect. Once the organic bond is formed, the plant can than more readily use supplemented trace mineral whether through leaf or root absorption. The beautiful thing, is that HA can actually have a chelating effect in soil bound minerals.

In relationship to macros, NPK, humic substances contain a high amount of carbon. the carbon and lipids will work to coat, absorb, and protect macros. while it may intitally delay the uptake of supplied macros, it will ultimately release it to the root system upon contact (and demand from the plant). this prevents losses to atmospheric and weather conditions (leaching, runoff, rain). in terms of the RGS product in particular, the name relates to "N-Ext RGS" - nitrogen extender root growth supplement, or something along those lines. I call it "really good shit." I have a video that shows 2 yards side by side, one i applied RGS, AMS, Aerated, and Seeded. The one next door, same application but no RGS. There is a distinct color difference 4 weeks after application. but don't take my word for it - do your own experiments.

so the whole goal is to supply your nutrients (NPK), use the humic acid as a "bridge" to increase nutrient availability efficiency to the plant, and utilize the kelp to increase cytokinin to promote shoot growth and keep the plant "healthy" in terms of its natural defenses.

in terms of the production process, cold extractions are better than heated extractions. heat will degrade the intergrity of the cytokinins in kelp. and to insure the most "biologically active" sample, the kelp must be "Brewed" over a long period of time. john perry at RGS built a 12 week brew system for his kelp.

His humic acid is produced in a brew fashion as well, well, actually, it's not exactly a brew - its more of a process.

if you were to take a sample of leonardite shale, we'll say 10 tons, and crush it up and soak it in water, you could extract some of the contained fulvic acids. fulvic acids are the smaller particulate component of humic and they're soluble at any pH. from there it would have to be tested for active percentage, and then reduced to meet "sell-able" AI (active inredient concentration). In ten tons, you may get 1 or 2 gallons of FA, and thats a shit load of wasted great material left behind. So to simplify the process, they first put the lignite in a super low pH solution. this precipitates out a more pure form of humic. they then prepare of solution of water and potassium hydroxide to bring the pH up to a 12 (humic is only soluble at a high pH). They then blend and mix the solution with the humic, and run it through a series of filters and screens, extracting as much of the humic and fulvic material as possible. at this point, it goes through a series of screens and the solution is brought back down in pH slightly to remain in solution and not react with other fertilizers as long as pH remains above a 4.5. if sulfite salts are used during the initial humic pull, before the high pH extraction, it will remain in solution without forming too many particulates when pH is brought back down.

hope that helps


----------



## Pete1313

Great info! I use kelp and humic acid in my tank mix and in the past have used it as a soil applied spray(sprayed with AIXR nozzles and watered in after). I am looking to try and use them in a mix as a foliar spray next year. Is there any benefit to using kelp/HA as a foliar spray or is it best to get it into the soil? Different advantages or negatives?


----------



## Butter

Great information. 
My questions are:
How often and at what rate can I safely apply RGS or a similar product?
Is it possible to overdo it? Can I do harm?
What about granular Humic products? Like Anderson's Humic DG?
Thanks,
Wayne


----------



## Ridgerunner

SOM/Humus/Humic substances has long been a topic of interest to me. Every couple of years I dive in to see if there has been any new research, It's been over a year since my last dive. To me, it's an astounding material. It exists for hundreds, even thousands of years . It has vast exchange capacities and depending on pH, it can posses cation or anion exchange capacity. It has chelation capacity. It's instrumental in soil aggregate structure, It holds 7 times it's volume in water. It's a source of energy for soil organisms and on and on. What can't it do?
I was hoping that there had been new science, as Humic substances were/are not very well understood. Unfortunately, it appears not. We are still operating under the same hypotheses. (FYI the references in your article are still accessible for reading, g-man. Thank you.)

@TGF:


> use the humic acid as a *"bridge"* to increase nutrient availability efficiency to the plant


Are you using that term as a general simile or are you referring to the specific capacity/action of "water bridging"? 


> if you were to take a sample of leonardite shale, we'll say 10 tons, and crush it up and soak it in water, you could extract some of the contained fulvic acids.


That IS new to me. I'm interested. My understanding (as of a couple of years ago) was that they have never been able to find evidence of HA or FA in soil. Do you have a link regarding the results of extraction of FA from a humus material using water alone? Thanks


----------



## AppTurf-Chris Elms

wayneschmagel said:


> Great information.
> My questions are:
> How often and at what rate can I safely apply RGS or a similar product?
> Is it possible to overdo it? Can I do harm?
> What about granular Humic products? Like Anderson's Humic DG?
> Thanks,
> Wayne


Wayne I apply it (RGS) at every single application one gallon to the acre. I personally feel like a little bit every application is better than a bunch all at once. You're not going to over do it. I have even applied it to really poor soil at one gallon per 1000ft2 ft no issues whatsoever and I know "the grass factor" has used it heavy rate . The Anderson's Humic DG is a good product just get yourself some kelp to apply with it.


----------



## thegrassfactor

Ridgerunner said:


> SOM/Humus/Humic substances has long been a topic of interest to me. Every couple of years I dive in to see if there has been any new research, It's been over a year since my last dive. To me, it's an astounding material. It exists for hundreds, even thousands of years . It has vast exchange capacities and depending on pH, it can posses cation or anion exchange capacity. It has chelation capacity. It's instrumental in soil aggregate structure, It holds 7 times it's volume in water. It's a source of energy for soil organisms and on and on. What can't it do?
> I was hoping that there had been new science, as Humic substances were/are not very well understood. Unfortunately, it appears not. We are still operating under the same hypotheses. (FYI the references in your article are still accessible for reading, g-man. Thank you.)
> 
> @TGF:
> 
> 
> 
> use the humic acid as a *"bridge"* to increase nutrient availability efficiency to the plant
> 
> 
> 
> Are you using that term as a general simile or are you referring to the specific capacity/action of "water bridging"?
> 
> 
> 
> if you were to take a sample of leonardite shale, we'll say 10 tons, and crush it up and soak it in water, you could extract some of the contained fulvic acids.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That IS new to me. I'm interested. My understanding (as of a couple of years ago) was that they have never been able to find evidence of HA or FA in soil. Do you have a link regarding the results of extraction of FA from a humus material using water alone? Thanks
Click to expand...

As a simile

There are dozens of pure water extracted FAs on Google. In my talks with a Humic acid producer, he says these these people extract the FA from shake, and use the leftover humus to cook down into a potassium humate that renders it less effective - as it no longer contains FA. But it can be granulated or powdered and resold to the market effectively making double the money on 1 good product and 1 inferior product.

90% of all Humic acid supplements are high pH extracted from leonardite shale. Most of them state on the label whether they come from peat or shale.


----------



## thegrassfactor

wayneschmagel said:


> Great information.
> My questions are:
> How often and at what rate can I safely apply RGS or a similar product?
> Is it possible to overdo it? Can I do harm?
> What about granular Humic products? Like Anderson's Humic DG?
> Thanks,
> Wayne


This is the problem. No one knows. It's all guesswork.

If you take the study from vatech that shows inputs can be reduced by 25% if 10-15lbs of OM/M are applied in conjunction with synthetics, you could apply the same science to humic. ~8-10lbs/Humic/M/year. Or simply 5-7lbs/Carbon/M/year.

Anderson's did their study and proved it's a more effective nitrogen delivery tool than urease inhibitors (why stop soil biology when you can get a better effect by increasing it?)

So all we have to work off of is the carbon based fertility study, and the urea/urease inhibitors/Humic DG turf quality study.

There is the possibility of over applying kelp. You can yellow a lawn on a hot day.

There is potential for Humic acid to cause soil to become hydrophobic due to the high levels of lipids.

I have yet to find that rate.

I've applied straight RGS concdntrate, nondiluted, to shit bare soil, seeded the same day, and had a lawn in 7 days.

John Perry with Greene county blasted areas around his plant with his precipitate after his brews completed and oddly it killed a ton of shit except the bermuda. The Bermuda filled in the weedy areas and is as green as a leprechaun suit. He isn't sure why. Me neither. But the pictures are astounding, considering 0 NPK was applied.

Granular products like Humic DG are fine too. It's just incredibly expensive. They take Humic acid and spray it onto a urea prill while spinning it in a pan mixer and then add heat. Comes out in this neat little prill. We're currently doing the same thing with BioChar and RGS, spinning it into this neat little prill.

Sexy stuff.


----------



## thegrassfactor

Pete1313 said:



> Great info! I use kelp and humic acid in my tank mix and in the past have used it as a soil applied spray(sprayed with AIXR nozzles and watered in after). I am looking to try and use them in a mix as a foliar spray next year. Is there any benefit to using kelp/HA as a foliar spray or is it best to get it into the soil? Different advantages or negatives?


I think simply getting it down is the solution - however you chose to do that is up to you. Whether one works better than the other??? Test it and report it!!


----------



## wiredawg

Question: I notice folks mixing RGS & Humic12 typically equal portions 3oz ea. to whatever water needed to cover whatever area they are calibrated for...my question is why mix these 2 products? RGS already has 6% Humic Acid. Why add the additional Humic12 (12%)? Obviously, its an additional kick of humic...has anyone here use specifically only one of these products for a season along their normal lawn routine, followed by a soil test and compared results from previous years' soil test?


----------



## adgattoni

wiredawg said:


> Question: I notice folks mixing RGS & Humic12 typically equal portions 3oz ea. to whatever water needed to cover whatever area they are calibrated for...my question is why mix these 2 products? RGS already has 6% Humic Acid. Why add the additional Humic12 (12%)? Obviously, its an additional kick of humic...has anyone here use specifically only one of these products for a season along their normal lawn routine, followed by a soil test and compared results from previous years' soil test?


I have also been confused on the value proposition for Humic 12 in the RGS line-up. After reading @thegrassfactor's post above about sea kelp burning a lawn - maybe it's to up the rate of humic applied the soil while keeping a base level of kelp?

I dunno. If I buy more of the GCF products it will probably be one of the straight RGS or RGS/Air8 packs. I don't really even have a good baseline to judge whether or not these things work. I take the @wardconnor approach and just blast the yard with all sorts of things and hope for the best.


----------



## wardconnor

adgattoni said:


> I take the @wardconnor approach and just blast the yard with all sorts of things and hope for the best.


This method works. As much as people want to critique it.... I get results.


----------



## SJ Lawn

Anyone here know a sod farmer well enough to ask about humic acid ?

A typical sod farmer grow hundreds of acres per year and would know what really works.


----------



## wiredawg

wardconnor said:


> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take the @wardconnor approach and just blast the yard with all sorts of things and hope for the best.
> 
> 
> 
> This method works. As much as people want to critique it.... I get results.
Click to expand...

@wardconnor, no argument there, I enjoy your lawn vids (a bit too much, I think...LOL) I've come to the conclusion your property sits on mystical burial ground where a long forgotten grass-god worshipers prayed for beautiful grass.


----------



## wiredawg

adgattoni said:


> wiredawg said:
> 
> 
> 
> Question: I notice folks mixing RGS & Humic12 typically equal portions 3oz ea. to whatever water needed to cover whatever area they are calibrated for...my question is why mix these 2 products? RGS already has 6% Humic Acid. Why add the additional Humic12 (12%)? Obviously, its an additional kick of humic...has anyone here use specifically only one of these products for a season along their normal lawn routine, followed by a soil test and compared results from previous years' soil test?
> 
> 
> 
> I have also been confused on the value proposition for Humic 12 in the RGS line-up. After reading @thegrassfactor's post above about sea kelp burning a lawn - maybe it's to up the rate of humic applied the soil while keeping a base level of kelp?
> 
> I dunno. If I buy more of the GCF products it will probably be one of the straight RGS or RGS/Air8 packs. I don't really even have a good baseline to judge whether or not these things work. I take the @wardconnor approach and just blast the yard with all sorts of things and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

I took the pluge and order the RGS/Humic12 combo, not sure when it will get here. Now, I just gotta decide how I plan on going about applying it. Thinking about separating my yard into test areas; RGS only, Humic only & both (thinking about) I should have plenty for the rest of this season and continue to all of 2019. My yard is no where the level of those posted on this board, but it is awesome for this neighborhood...LOL


----------



## rrmiller32

wiredawg said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> adgattoni said:
> 
> 
> 
> I take the @wardconnor approach and just blast the yard with all sorts of things and hope for the best.
> 
> 
> 
> This method works. As much as people want to critique it.... I get results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @wardconnor, no argument there, I enjoy your lawn vids (a bit too much, I think...LOL) I've come to the conclusion your property sits on mystical burial ground where a long forgotten grass-god worshipers prayed for beautiful grass.
Click to expand...

+1 on both those statements. I'm pretty sure you could irrigate your lawn with toxic waste and it would probably somehow get greener and thicker


----------



## O_Poole

AppTurf-Chris Elms said:


> Not really other than the process is a long cold brew that takes them 12 weeks. I buy in bulk so making 200-300 gallons isn't an option. If you need a small amount you'd be okay mixing your own. I like Kelp4less for small mixes. Their extreme blend is Humic, kelp and amino acids. Great product.


What about RGS and K4L Extreme Blend in the tank together.. Extreme blend does have an NPK of 12-0-6 so you would get the benefit of nitrogen at the same time? @wardconnor how many ounces or pounds of Extreme blend are y'all spraying to the acre?

Thanks!


----------



## wardconnor

O_Poole said:


> AppTurf-Chris Elms said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not really other than the process is a long cold brew that takes them 12 weeks. I buy in bulk so making 200-300 gallons isn't an option. If you need a small amount you'd be okay mixing your own. I like Kelp4less for small mixes. Their extreme blend is Humic, kelp and amino acids. Great product.
> 
> 
> 
> What about RGS and K4L Extreme Blend in the tank together.. Extreme blend does have an NPK of 12-0-6 so you would get the benefit of nitrogen at the same time? @wardconnor how many ounces or pounds of Extreme blend are y'all spraying to the acre?
> 
> Thanks!
Click to expand...

1 pound of the extreme blend per acre.


----------



## O_Poole

@wardconnor What did you think of your results of a pound to the acre?


----------



## wardconnor

O_Poole said:


> @wardconnor What did you think of your results of a pound to the acre?


It's hard to say really. I believe that it does indeed help. How much help? Not really sure. It is not quite like a fertilizer nitrogen app. I think of it more like a long term low and slow type thing.


----------



## TheTurfTamer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OELzPmFJH-g

If you haven't seen this video, Watch it. It breaks down all the differences in fertilizer including Humic acid and Milo and explains the affects that watering / rain has on them. Very informative .


----------

