# KBG in Carolinas (SC Specifically)



## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

Afternoon everyone!

New to TLF as I've gotten more and more into lawn care over the last year and increasingly realized how far I have to come and how much knowledge y'all have already!

I am planning ahead for my Fall overseeding work and would like some help with selection of a KBG variety that would work best.

Background: Full renovation and seeding project was done at the end of Sept of 2019 (some photos here - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-ISlkcEsnKQ4UHQSAV6aywajhofA1AYr?usp=sharing). Primary seed used was SS1002 mixture from SSS - https://www.seedsuperstore.com/catalog/p-100073/ss1002-tall-fescue-shade-blend Overall it took well and got good establishment except in the yards that are the most shaded as you can see from the pictures.

The challenges that I know and am aware of are:
-Carolinas Summer heat stretches and the need for additional water
-Counteracting the surge of watering with appropriate preventatives for fungus
-Shade conditions of my yard. This not only creates shortage of sunlight but also effects my timing in the Fall to ensure the new grass isn't getting smothered by piles of leaves. (to make it clear, total removal of trees is not an option or something my wife would go for. We feel in love with this house since it has nice mature trees while anything else new they are building in our area gets none of that left behind).

All of that in mind, I would still love to get some KBG incorporate into my yard to help provide greater resilience and self healing than my TTTF has to offer.

What I've researched so far and am considering:
1. Mazama KBG - rated best for shade tolerance of the KBGs 
2. SPF 30 - rated well for heat tolerance
3. Thermal Blue - rated well for heat tolerance
4. Maybe some combo of these.

Thanks in advance for y'alls help! I know surely there are others that have had similar challenges as I have and desire to grow KBG here in the Carolinas region so hopefully my work can then be helpful and informative to others as well.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

Welcome to TLF. Wanted to subscribe to this is thread as I'm in the humid transition zone as well in coastal Virginia and also trying to grow KBG. I renovated last fall with Turf Blue HGT in my back lawn and plan to overseed with SPF-30 at the end of the month. Here are some thoughts and links to help w/ your research.


KBG is going to struggle in our climate, regardless of what the seed manufacturer's claim. Remember that those ratings are relative to other varieties of the same grass. Doesn't mean they do well, just better than others. Not saying it wont work, but I've learned it's going to take a legit 1.5" of water a week to keep it mostly green in the summer.


I chose to overseed with a hybrid bluegrass this fall to expand genetic diversity. I chose SPF-30 because it seemed to have the best color. Others are apparently very light. I'm not sure if will perform better than Turf Blue, but I want to test and improve disease resistance through genetic diversity.


Per Virginia Tech, the most successful lawns in our area are TTTF/KBG mix (link below). It's difficult to seed most KBG's into an existing lawn due to slow germination rates. Better if the lawn is thin. Turf Blue germinates fast, so that's ok. SPF-30 is faster, but not fast. You'll want to cut low before overseeding. This what I'm doing with my front yard that is mostly TTTF already. If I'm not happy with my KBG back lawn next year, I will likely add in TTTF. Probably 4th Melinium, Rhizing Moon, or Mazama.

Links to get you started:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13328
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=20285
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9273


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@Captquin Thanks for the info and the links! Reading through those now. I understand that KBG is not "ideal" for our climates but I am encouraged after seeing Pete's (GCI) work with KBG in his lawn. I REALLY like the look of the shorter turf more (even if still just at 1"-2" range on my Timemaster) as well as getting the self repairing action going on.

To your 3rd point, my yard has thinned out a good bit this summer due to some fungus struggles and honing in my water amounts/frequency. By the time July hit, I didn't put too much effort into sustaining it as I figured it would be better to be thinner heading into overseeding season.

Definitely leaning in the direction of adding a combo of Mazama and SPF-30 at this point. With a heavier mixture of Mazama in the shadier areas and a heavier proportion of SPF-30 in the sunnier areas. Will be hard to see which one is actually doing well throughout the year but should be able to proof of concept the KBG in general for my specific yard.

Here is my current plan heading into the next month or so:
1. Cut progressively lower over the next few mowings to get down to sub 2" by the time I seed.
2. Weekend of 8/28 - bring in some top soil to level our the larger dips and whatnot. Otherwise just to have thin layer elsewhere if I can manage it.
3. First weekend of Sept - throw down seed and set my Rachio to water ~4 times per day.
4. 1 Week later - thrown down starter fert
5. by 9/20 or so - Hope for first mowing on new grass
6. Rest of Fall - Mow every other day if I'm able to help stimulate the growth and get the grass used to being sub 2" from the start. This will also be the timing that my trees are dumping leaves like crazy so mowing ever couple days should help keep those cleaned up and give the new grass the most breathing room possible.
7. Starting Around mid Oct and every 4 weeks - thrown down CarbonX or something similar. I've got some Scotts starter fert it meso as well to throw in there to try to help control the POA over the winter.

Am I missing anything in here? Should I start with tenacity applications every 10 days or so for the next couple months to try to ensure I give myself the best defense against POA or other Winter weeds for the rest of the year? I've only got about 9k sq feet but also only have a 2 gallon pump sprayer so spraying that often is doable but not ideal.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Subscribing to follow along

I'm in Maryland and about to Seed SPF-30 into a lawn that's currently a mix.

Re mesotrione 
Maybe you already know this, but I thought the label rates and annual limits meant you could only do twice per year not every two weeks - but I could be wrong.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

My plan is similar but for what it's worth I'm going to put SPF-30 down sooner in the next week. And I'm going to dethatch and scarify first in the worst areas which should thin things out a lot / make room for the bluegrass and also create a better seed bed.


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

Sam, thanks for the info and good to know about the meso! I'll have to double check on that to be sure. Will be fun if we end up with a good group of us here in the next couple years that have had success with KBG in our type of climate.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

I'm putting down a 50/50 blend of HGT and SPF-30 in the next day or two, so best of luck to us all!!


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## Ge0rdi3brit (Aug 30, 2018)

You guys are really tempting me to join you in trying some KBG in our climate. I have 100lbs of 4th millennium on hand to oversees this year. After reading this I could go with 25lbs of spf30 to add that to the overseed. Hmmmmm

I know a challenge comes with tttf germinating much faster than kbg, but I'm getting tired of how much of my lawn dies off in this heat, even though it's getting 1-1.5" of water a week and is on a solid fungicide program. Having the rhizominous properties of kbg would be really nice.

Where did you guys get your spf30 from?


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

The HGT germinates in 5-7 days, so you could certainly do that. SPF-30 isn't as quick. Honestly, I'm not sure how much less die off we will get from these two KBG's. I had a decent bit with the HGT, but I under watered. My front yard is already mostly TTTF, so I'm scalping and overseeding the KBG into it. Hoping the HGT will take off before the TTTF covers it. I'm trying for all KBG in the back. Have the HGT now and overseeding with HGT/SPF-30, but if I have significant die off next summer, I will overseed with a TTTF as suggested by Virginia Tech:

"Research out of HRAREC [Hampton Roads Agricultural Research and Extension Center]and NC State indicate that the fescue/bluegrass combos outperform monocultures (better disease tolerance, better color maintenance, no clumping concerns with the new fescues as it used to be, etc... these combos are now the norms for sod producers at 90% tall fescue and 10% Kentucky bluegrass... works out to be a 50/50 mix by seed count on the basis of the seed size) with the norm being regular fall interseeding of tall fescue to try to keep the bluegrass in balance... it tends to dominate over time as the bluegrass spreads by its rhizomes. So, if you have a bluegrass base, consider interseeding one of the best tall fescues into it... 2-3 lbs per 1000 sq ft... if you can aerate/seed or slit seed into the existing stand that would be ideal. Soil disruption will tend to also encourage some winter weed germination, and you can use Tenacity (mesotrione) to manage annual bluegrass in particular... can spray with one hand and seed with the other with Tenacity."

Got my SPF-30 from Amazon. It comes from Outside Pride, but was cheaper via Amazon for some reason. FYI: Took about 2 weeks to receive.


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## Ge0rdi3brit (Aug 30, 2018)

Thanks @Captquin. Looking at HGT, I can get 5lbs for $38, which includes a "yellow jacket coating" from Barenbrug. Apparently this coating helps retain moisture and increases germination time.

It's hard to know which one to go with.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@Ge0rdi3brit I hear that! The coating is 50% by weight. I got the yellow jacket coating this year because I didn't need much seed. As far as I can tell the seed rate is the same with or without coating. Seems odd, so please let me know if you find something different.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Ge0rdi3brit said:


> Where did you guys get your spf30 from?


Same - Outside Pride via Amazon. 
And agreed it took a bit less than two weeks to arrive.

After all that, I was relieved it was good numbers like 0pct other crop


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## Ge0rdi3brit (Aug 30, 2018)

Ordered 25lbs of spf30 directly from Outside Pride. Fingers crossed it gets here before my planned Labor Day seed down date.


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## Bigdrumnc (Mar 28, 2019)

Captquin said:


> Welcome to TLF. Wanted to subscribe to this is thread as I'm in the humid transition zone as well in coastal Virginia and also trying to grow KBG. I renovated last fall with Turf Blue HGT in my back lawn and plan to overseed with SPF-30 at the end of the month. Here are some thoughts and links to help w/ your research.
> 
> 
> KBG is going to struggle in our climate, regardless of what the seed manufacturer's claim. Remember that those ratings are relative to other varieties of the same grass. Doesn't mean they do well, just better than others. Not saying it wont work, but I've learned it's going to take a legit 1.5" of water a week to keep it mostly green in the summer.
> ...


Is that what's in southern belles hybrid mix this year? I am south of you and have been teetering between southern belles hybrid mix or triple threat plus with kbg jump start.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

No idea. The Southern Belle I usually see here is a TTTF blend.


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## Bigdrumnc (Mar 28, 2019)

They have a mix that has spf 30 in it, 90-10 mix with their tttf.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

@nathanwalkerSC 
Just a kbg option: Tirem

It was developed by Pure-seed testing and according to them does very well in the transition zone. 
I actually have 33% in my spring reno. I do, however, live in BC, Canada, but my climate does here gets very hot during the summer. 
Just a thought....


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Captquin said:


> I'm putting down a 50/50 blend of HGT and SPF-30 in the next day or two, so best of luck to us all!!


Ditto! Best of luck to everyone

I got seed down (SPF30) on my back yard today


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

Thanks for the info everyone! It seems like a good blend for my conditions would be some mixture of Mazama, SPF-30, and Tirem in with my TTTF. I have a 25 bag of TTTF in the garage ready to go (the same mix as what I did a reno with last fall) so maybe if I got in 10 lbs each of these other varieties then it would help the KBG ones that do survive to help push their growth and eventually overtake the TTTF.

I guess my main question at this point is how to do know which does best if they are all mixed in together rather than different/separate test areas? I know seed is relatively cheap but still want to make sure that long term I'm aware of which cultivars seem to do the best in my micro climate and thus mix more of that in the future.

Or is it just accepted that unless one were to go a full monostand of one cultivar then our best bet is to do mixes and let the strong survive, hoping that over the years it will become a bit more clear which are maybe the best for my particular yard?

Thanks again everyone!


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Hi All, I think I see germination today. I seeded SPF-30 back on the 23rd - so hopefully that's what's coming up? That'd be 6 days ( with soil temps around 80 and water 3x per day )


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@sam That's great! Thanks for the update. I've got construction going on my front porch now that won't be done for another week or so. But I need to go ahead and get my SPF30 and mazama ordered to be ready. Might go ahead with mowing down and then seeding the backyard this weekend. It is more shady so heat shouldn't be too much of an issue.

My plan is to mix in the KBG SPF30 and KBG mazama into the TTTF mix I have from SSS. With heavier rates of Mazama in the much denser shade areas and then heavier rates of SPF30 in the more open/sunny areas.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

sam said:


> Hi All, I think I see germination today. I seeded SPF-30 back on the 23rd - so hopefully that's what's coming up? That'd be 6 days ( with soil temps around 80 and water 3x per day )


Same here in my test pots.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=22489


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@Captquin It looks like the SPF30 ends up being far less expensive than the Mazama due to shipping costs and whatnot. Do you think its probably a better idea to just stick with the Hybrid SPF30 for adding to my yard cultivars this year? That way I can see a bit more how it performs in the shade, heat, etc and then if still wanting to add in Mazama to wait and do that next year?

Thanks!


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@nathanwalkerSC It's always nice to know which varieties are doing best in which conditions. If you know you're going to get Mazama anyway, and can swing the price, might as well do it now because you'll wish you had in the spring. If you think you'll overseed with something different year after year, then save the coin, learn how the spf does, and wait. Just my opinion


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@Captquin Thanks for the info and the pointers! I'm going to run with the SPF30 to mix in with my SSS TTTF shade mixture for this Fall. Depending on how that does going into next year then I'll see about adding more KBG varieties but at least from this seeding I'll know how the SPF30 itself specifically.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

How are other SPF30 seeders doing?

I'm at 28 days after the earliest sections germinated (aka 34 days after seeding) and still sprout and pout. Well - LOTS of tillering but it hasn't really grown longer.

It might not have helped we had some unseasonably cool spells and cloudy days. Hopefully will take off soon. We have warm weather for the next week


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Courtesy of NCSU Extension (hopefully translation into nearby locales!:

*2020 Top Performing Tall Fescue and Kentucky Bluegrass Cultivars Across the Transition Zone and North Carolina*:

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/top-performing-tall-fescue-and-kentucky-bluegrass-cultivars


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

Thanks for sharing! Looks like our first frost here in SC isn't until late November. I'm planning to get my seed down this week with the main goal to get ahead of the massive leaf fall I get from all my tress. Fingers crossed I get enough germination ahead of that for me to blow the leaves off without doing too much damage.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

Anyone else have SPF30 down this year and how is yours coming in?


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@sam Not yet. Planning to in the next couple days. How is yours looking so far? Have you gotten on it with a mow yet?


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## Ge0rdi3brit (Aug 30, 2018)

I put spf30 down along with 4th millennium three weeks ago on Sept 8th. Things have certainly greened up, but I think the progress has slowed significantly because of the cooler temperatures. I'm definitely seeing the tttf, but if I'm honest, I'm not able to differentiate the kbg from it.
Hopefully it's just me and I don't know the difference at this young stage. Having to force myself to be patient.


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@Ge0rdi3brit Thanks for the update! I'm thinking I won't much be able to tell the KBG from my TTTF blend either other than to see that the KBG is much slower growth...  I'll definitely be fighting to be patient and hold off on mowing too! I anticipate I'll need to wait until as close to the end of Oct as I can before I mow again and things will be looking might shaggy by then.

Side note but I'm using Scotts starter fert with the mesotrione in it as well as throwing down a fungicide app (scotts granular). In my experience both the fungicide and the tenacity will slow the growth of existing grass quite a bit. So between those and then mowing as low as I can before seeding then I'm hoping my yard doesn't look too long overall by the time I get to that 4-5 week mark.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

Following along. I have a weird idea to reno a small area in my back yard next year that I can mow low. Kind of a trial for a reno and mowing low. Also hopefully manageable as far as size with respect to water inputs and time required, smaller area to monitor, etc.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

nathanwalkerSC said:


> @sam Not yet. Planning to in the next couple days. How is yours looking so far? Have you gotten on it with a mow yet?


My SPF30 is still at 1.5" , 33 days after germination on the earliest parts I seeded.

This is my first experience with bluegrass and if this is normal sprout and pout then I don't know how the KBG guys can take it! :lol:

It has been steadily tillering and thickening up so it's looking better than it did the first few weeks. But it still hasn't "made a break for it" in terms of vertical growth. And the blades still look like baby grass.

I did mow a couple times but that was because I have existing grass In places and it was getting long. I don't think the new spf30 has even reached the mower blades 2" HOC, so in that sense it hasn't been mowed.


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## nathanwalkerSC (Aug 14, 2020)

@sam Good to know how long it "pouts" for! That is crazy and not what I would have imagined but I guess that is why the KBG guys note that its really the following Spring and proceeding years that KBG can really start to show its strength. Will keep some extra for if needed but have a 50 lb bag of SPF 30 KBG and then 25 lbs SSS TTTF shade blend that will go down today. Hoping it establishes enough by Halloween to be solid enough. Otherwise I'll just have to be super patient knowing that we don't get our first frost in SC until around late November.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

I blended SPF-30 with Turf Blue HGT, so I really can't tell which is doing what in the lawn. Both (and the blend) are doing well in the test pots, but of course the soil is looser there.

How do you tell if it's tillering? I assume the new baby grass I see is from late germinating seeds.


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## klsmith259 (Oct 6, 2020)

I'm on Day 16 in Atlanta, GA with SPF 30 KBG. Grass height varies up to about 1.5 inches and hasn't been cut yet. Germination rates have varied across the yard mostly due to the rain we've received as well as irrigation rates due to the amount of sunlight the yard receives. You will notice the left side is not as "full" as the right which is due to it being over watered at the beginning I believe and part of it being washed away from rain. Since then I have adjusted irrigation and put down additional seed in the bare areas. Today I'm going to try to remedy the water that runs down the left side of the back hill.

A few months ago I had a large Oak and a large tree along the back fence removed leaving one Oak on the left side. Since then the yard gets a lot more sun and I'm debating in the spring having one more oak taken down (if it can pass the wife approval phase) and switching to Arden 15 Bermuda due to less water needed and durability (we have 2 large dogs). Previously the yard was fescue but it takes a beating and obviously doesn't spread/tiller.

Don't mind my neighbors on the left side... they say they are going to have their crepe myrtles cleaned up next year when it's time to cut them back (we'll see but I'm not holding my breath). If they do that then the yard will receive a lot more sun on the left side. In the pictures, the sun rises on the left and sets on the right roughly.

Growing KBG really is a test of patience and I'm normally more impatient than not. If I can make it through KBG I can have the patience to grow Bermuda from seed.


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## Captquin (Aug 22, 2019)

@klsmith259 Are you saying you're going to have KBG and Bermuda in the same area?


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## klsmith259 (Oct 6, 2020)

No, come spring I may kill off the KBG and seed with Bermuda. I have seen others with a mix of both. It really depends on how well it does with the additional sunlight and holds up to traffic from the two dogs. The other factor is that they are both trained to pee in the mulch and they do 75-80% but their urine burns the grass and want to see how fast the KBG recovers. I know Bermuda will quickly.


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