# Looking to confirm this is brown patch on TTTF



## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

I have kept a preventative rate of fungicide on my lawn but it appears to not have kept fungus away. My last application was on 6/26 and it was Scott's DiseaseEx. Before that I applied Bio-Advanced on 6/13. I rotate applications of those two products. Should I spray Bio-Advanced again now? Do you believe this is brown patch? Any comments would be greatly appreciated.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

It might be. Those don't look like classic brown patch lesions but this is definitely the season for BP. When you say you did preventative rate with diseasex, you mean the low rate? The one that gets you 14 days residual?

Either way, the Bayer Advanced won't help. I think that's propiconazole? I know it's labeled for brown patch but it doesn't work. See link below.

What does the overall yard look like? Are you just seeing a few blades of grass that are discolored or the whole lawn?

https://www.plantpath.k-state.edu/extension/documents/turf/Brown%20patch%20%20homeowners%202016.pdf


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

It's not brown patch.

It wouldn't hurt to increase your application rate now that you're in the middle of fungus season, the amount of active ingredient in those consumer products is on the low end. Maybe go for curative rate through the rest of summer.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

Yes, the low rate of DiseaseEx. It's in several of the somewhat flat areas of my lawn. The hillside doesn't appear to have any. What do you suggest I spray or apply?


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

j4c11 said:


> It's not brown patch.
> 
> It wouldn't hurt to increase your application rate now that you're in the middle of fungus season, the amount of active ingredient in those consumer products is on the low end. Maybe go for curative rate through the rest of summer.


Thanks, which product? I appreciate your input.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not brown patch.
> ...


Both, keep rotating between them. Just increase the application rate to the curative rate. Typically double the preventative rate.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> It's not brown patch.


He's growing tall fescue in the transition zone and it's early July. How are you so certain?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Yes, the low rate of DiseaseEx. It's in several of the somewhat flat areas of my lawn. The hillside doesn't appear to have any. What do you suggest I spray or apply?


I would have given you different advice. I would stick with DiseaseX at the high rate (I think it's 4lb's per thousand but check the bag). That gives you 28 days of residual/ protection. I would start it as late as you can (look for low temps not getting below 65 to 70F on a consistent basis) because you only have 3 apps before you risk fungus resistance. I'm guessing that's sometime in late May for you?

There is no readily, homeowner available rotation chemical that actually works. That's why you want to start the diseaseX as late as possible. I would not bother with the Bayer Advanced at all. If you wanted to run it concurrent with DiseaseX then fine. The Bayer Advanced product could theoretically help if you had dollar spot but DS is more of a nuisance in tall fescue. Like I say, if you want to run it concurrent then ok but I would not rely on it as a stand alone.

Good luck!


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

tgreen said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not brown patch.
> ...


It doesn't looks like brown patch, brown patch produces a different type of lesion, white with brown edges. Really easy to identify. I'm not saying there's no brown patch anywhere, but those pictures are not indicative of brown patch. 


tgreen said:


> I would not bother with the Bayer Advanced at all. If you wanted to run it concurrent with DiseaseX then fine. [...]
> Like I say, if you want to run it concurrent then ok but I would not rely on it as a stand alone.


We didn't always have azoxystrobin readily available, DiseaseEx is a recent development. Before that you could get a pint for $200 as Azoxy 2SC, expensive stuff. Propiconazole alone carried me and many other people with fescue through many summers, no reason to diss it.


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

@Glen_Cove_5511 the new leaves look healthy with no lesions. The plant may just be shedding leaves because of stress.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

tgreen said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, the low rate of DiseaseEx. It's in several of the somewhat flat areas of my lawn. The hillside doesn't appear to have any. What do you suggest I spray or apply?
> ...


Thanks @tgreen... That's what's strange, I applied DiseaseEx at the regular rate a week ago and it got watered in.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> no reason to diss it.


I believe you that it worked for you and others but It doesn't work on brown patch for the rest of us. I base it on my own personal experience and the research. Why recommend an inferior product when there is something better and readily available?


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

Here are some pictures from the areas affected. Maybe this will help. Thanks everyone!


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

tgreen said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > no reason to diss it.
> ...


Who is "the rest of us"? You and who else?

Do you realize DiseaseEx didn't exist until a couple years ago? We didn't all just get our lawns wiped out until Scott's bestowed DiseaseEx upon us. I've been using propiconazole for a decade for brown patch control, under high pressure conditions, on various fescue varieties with good results. Propiconazole is generally rated fair to good for brown patch control by various university extensions, but it sounds like you might have your own study up your sleeve that says it doesn't work at all, for anyone. I'd like to take a look at that.

Azoxystrobin should be rotated with another fungicide. Propiconazole is a great candidate, as it has a different mode of action. It's also relatively cheap, and readily available. What is the alternative, keep applying Azoxystrobin until you develop some sort of resistant super-fungus?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> What is the alternative, keep applying Azoxystrobin until you develop some sort of resistant super-fungus?


Interesting topic going here...

Apparently Scotts thinks that's ok to do. Their label is atrocious in that regard.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Here are some pictures from the areas affected. Maybe this will help. Thanks everyone!


That looks a lot like brown patch based on the pics (particularly the one above with the more classic BP lesions) but the only way to know for sure is to submit a sample to a turf path lab. It's not a big deal, just look up your local state university extension on google.

If it were me though, based on current conditions, I would assume brown patch and treat with diseaseX. I know you said you ran it already but I would go with curative rate and put it out earlier next year. Look for nighttime low temps that do not get below 65 to 70F and start treating preventatively.

Good luck!


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > j4c11 said:
> ...


Don't take it personally. You're not the only one recommending propy and I'm trying to understand what I'm missing.

Here's the link to the study:

http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2013/brown/brown.pdf


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

tgreen said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
> 
> 
> > Here are some pictures from the areas affected. Maybe this will help. Thanks everyone!
> ...


Lows are forecast right around 70° for the next two weeks. Would it help to put down some more DiseaseEx right now? Can it do harm if I put down too much? Thanks again!


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

tgreen said:


> Don't take it personally. You're not the only one recommending propy and I'm trying to understand what I'm missing.
> 
> Here's the link to the study:
> 
> http://www.plantmanagementnetwork.org/pub/php/research/2013/brown/brown.pdf


Well, here's a field trial from NCSU

When applied on 28 day intervals, Heritage (0.2 oz), Insignia (0.9 oz), Banner Maxx (2.0 fl oz),
Bayleton (1.0 oz), Prostar (3.0 oz), and Systar (3.0 oz) provided excellent control of brown patch in this
trial. Lower rates of Heritage (0.1 oz) and Insignia (0.5 oz) did not provide adequate control, although
these rates have performed well in other trials.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Lows are forecast right around 70° for the next two weeks. Would it help to put down some more DiseaseEx right now? Can it do harm if I put down too much? Thanks again!


On June 26, did you run 4 pounds per thousand of the diseasex? If so, there is nothing more to do. I would plan to overseed that area in a couple months. Your situation is like millions of yards in the transition zone so nothing you did wrong. Tall fescue is not native to our climate so you do the best you can.

Looking to next year, I would start running the diseasex once nightime low temps do not get below 65 to 70F. You can do 3 apps at the 4 lb rate every 28 days and then you are basically out of options. If you want to go off label, then there are options.

One other thought for you. The research says it does not matter if you spray azoxystrobin or spread granules, however, I would spray it if you have that option. It's completely anecdotal but my experience says spraying works better.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

tgreen said:


> Glen_Cove_5511 said:
> 
> 
> > Lows are forecast right around 70° for the next two weeks. Would it help to put down some more DiseaseEx right now? Can it do harm if I put down too much? Thanks again!
> ...


Yes, I did 4 pounds/1,000 on the 26th. Early fall I'll be overseeding for sure. Just need to figure out which TTTF I'm going with but that's a whole other discussion. I ended up spraying those areas with Bio Advanced today. Hopefully it'll help.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

tgreen said:


> One other thought for you. The research says it does not matter if you spray azoxystrobin or spread granules, however, I would spray it if you have that option. It's completely anecdotal but my experience says spraying works better.


If you only have a granular, and it's a fine enough product in SGN, you can apply to damp grass, wait about a half hour, and then water. Supposedly some of it absorbs that way. I've done this with Headway before because I heard it was a good practice.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > Don't take it personally. You're not the only one recommending propy and I'm trying to understand what I'm missing.
> ...


Ok, fair enough. I did see NCSU shows propy effectiveness on brown patch at 2 stars of 4. https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/brown-patch-in-turf

I will give it another try on a small area of my yard and test it again. Thanks for the info.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Green said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > One other thought for you. The research says it does not matter if you spray azoxystrobin or spread granules, however, I would spray it if you have that option. It's completely anecdotal but my experience says spraying works better.
> ...


This is a good idea. I hate spraying but think there is a possibility the azoxy has some contact effect. I think gman or someone else suggested this and I think it could be accurate. Running a granular while the grass is wet is an interesting idea to get the same effect.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Yes, I did 4 pounds/1,000 on the 26th. Early fall I'll be overseeding for sure. Just need to figure out which TTTF I'm going with but that's a whole other discussion. I ended up spraying those areas with Bio Advanced today. Hopefully it'll help.


OK. You've got it covered then. You may have just been a little late with the azoxystrobin. The grass is stressed and growing slowly this time of year. You ran the azoxy on June 26 and the plant may not have had enough time to uptake the chemical before the BP hit. Go out earlier next year.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

tgreen said:


> Ok, fair enough. I did see NCSU shows propy effectiveness on brown patch at 2 stars of 4. https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/brown-patch-in-turf
> 
> I will give it another try on a small area of my yard and test it again. Thanks for the info.


 :thumbup:

I think if you do 2-3 apps of azoxy, and you have something to switch to for only one app, even if it's half as effective, that gives you another 2-3 apps of azoxy instead of being completely out of luck. I've seen brown patch crop as early as May and as late as September.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@j4c11 @tgreen Stop fighting, get Velista  or mix Daconil with propi and/or azoxy and call the day. I wished I have acces to what you can get in US .


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Babameca said:


> @j4c11 @tgreen Stop fighting, get Velista  or mix Daconil with propi and/or azoxy and call the day. I wished I have acces to what you can get in US .


I found Daconil on sale last fall for $2 a bottle at Walmart. Bought all 10 bottles. For my tomatoes :bd:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@tgreen @j4c11 The conversation around propi was in interesting one. I dont like using propi because the PGR effects it has and they turn worst when mixed with tnex. There is a bottle in my garage, but I barely use it.

Rutgers, UK and UW rated propi with a 3 for effectiveness against brown patch in their PPA1. Azoxy is 4 when applied every 2 weeks, or a 3 when applied every 28days. The two combined in Headway it is a 3.5 efficacy. So I believe it works.

But, there is there statement in their text:


> For high-maintenance tall fescue lawns, ready-to-use fungicide formulations available to homeowners typically have performed poorly in research trials (with azoxystrobin being one of the few exceptions).


I think this aligns with the experience from tgreen on a TTTF lawn. I think it also aligns with J4C11 experience on a KBG lawn.

PS, there is more interesting info in that report around brown patch.


> Acceptable control sometimes *(but not always)* has been achieved using DMI (=FRAC Code 3) fungicides, such as propiconazole and fluxapyroxad. *Granular* formulations of fungicidal materials can provide adequate disease suppression but sometimes *do not* provide complete disease control-and often provide less disease control in lawns than *sprayable* formulations.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

g-man said:


> @tgreen @j4c11 The conversation around propi was in interesting one. I dont like using propi because the PGR effects it has and they turn worst when mixed with tnex. There is a bottle in my garage, but I barely use it.
> 
> Rutgers, UK and UW rated propi with a 3 for effectiveness against brown patch in their PPA1. Azoxy is 4 when applied every 2 weeks, or a 3 when applied every 28days. The two combined in Headway it is a 3.5 efficacy. So I believe it works.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I have some that I use for powdery mildew on dogwoods. May give it another try on a small section of turf just to see if I didn't give it enough of a chance a few years back.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@Glen_Cove_5511 I have TTTF in Georgia and run the DIY Headway Mix every 21 days with great results so far this season (knock on wood). I'm not claiming to have zero fungal issues but it's definitely not wide spread or noticeable. Whichever route you go, consider getting way ahead of it next year because it seems pretty tough to fix once you get it in the trans zone.

0.77 oz./# Azoxy 2SC
2.00 oz./# Propiconazole 14.3

We had high winter temps w/ humidity this year so my first application was 4/7. This works for me because I buy in bulk but with 4K sq ft it may not work for your situation.


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks @Grass Clippins. I'm continuing with an alternating preventative application of Azoxy and Propiconazole every 3 weeks. For next year, I plan on getting ahead of it. Already have it on my calendar. Appreciate the reply!


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