# What's your grass seed of choice for transition zone?



## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

What are some of the best varieties of tttf (or even blue grass) that you have experience with?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

VA Tech puts out a list of recommended varieties:
https://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter-archive/turfgrass/2021-2022.pdf


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> VA Tech puts out a list of recommended varieties:
> https://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter-archive/turfgrass/2021-2022.pdf


Fantastic! thanks for sharing. Where's the best place to get quality seed? Online? 
I don't think trinity has any of these varieties.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

What are you looking for in a lawn? Do you have plans to maintain at a low HOC? If so, how low? How much are you willing to water?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I bet Trinity has something with a mixture of them. Pleasants Hardware usually has a mixture with some. It seems to be different year to year. Online I have used Hogan Seeds and they had some of the varieties. If you want to research, I'd look for the best brown patch resistance in NTEP trials.


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

I'm in Oklahoma.
SPF30. It's a hybrid bluegrass. I put the hybrid in my backyard along with a little bit of Midnight, and it is blowing away my front yard that has a mix of several other top tier bluegrasses. The SPF30 looks absolutely amazing and is holding up amazingly (with enough water!!!) than my other bluegrass varieties.

Here is a recent pic after I mowed on July 4th. We haven't had rain in at least a month, but irrigation is the main thing right now. There are a couple areas I have to focus on getting enough water, and the back strip doesn't have irrigation at the moment, plus there is a huge tree in the neighbors yard that makes grass growing tough there anyway. This grass is truly beautiful, just give it enough water and take care of it.

ps- Ignore the dog urine spots. My sister is in town with her two dogs that have acid piss :lol:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That looks great. Do you know how many inches of water you are doing a week?


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## ENVY23 (Sep 14, 2021)

Back in 2015 when I got serious about maintaining my lawn, I saw so many good looking KBG lawns online that I wanted one. After talking to several friends and local lawn pros prior to doing a reno, they ALL told me KBG wouldn't make it through summer. It would die in our heat and that I had to use fescue if I wanted a great looking lawn. Being stubborn, I went against their advice and seeded KBG anyway. Let me tell you what a mistake that was… in the 5 years following my reno the KBG did so poorly that when we moved into our current house in 2020 my first order of business was to reno the lawn with KBG. :lol:


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

bernstem said:


> What are you looking for in a lawn? Do you have plans to maintain at a low HOC? If so, how low? How much are you willing to water?


Dark green color and disease resistance. My yard is irrigated so drought tolerance is not as much of a concern.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> I bet Trinity has something with a mixture of them. Pleasants Hardware usually has a mixture with some. It seems to be different year to year. Online I have used Hogan Seeds and they had some of the varieties. If you want to research, I'd look for the best brown patch resistance in NTEP trials.


I checked with trinity they currently have Titan RX, Falcon 4 (used to be on the list), and Inferno Tall Fescues. They anticipate having Hemi, Firebird 2, and Turbo RZ once this year's harvest is available.


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## Angler (Apr 9, 2021)

I live in NC and did a reno this past fall. I did quite a bit of research on cultivars and ended up choosing 4th Millennium, Valkyrie, and Raptor 3 as well as Mazama KBG. From my research I think Titanium 2 would also be a good one. My second choice for KBG would probably be Midnight. I think Mazama is the best for the southern transition zone. Of the cultivars listed for tttf, 4th Millennium consistently scored the highest. I'm very pleased with the outcome of my reno using these cultivars.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Angler said:


> I live in NC and did a reno this past fall. I did quite a bit of research on cultivars and ended up choosing 4th Millennium, Valkyrie, and Raptor 3 as well as Mazama KBG. From my research I think Titanium 2 would also be a good one. My second choice for KBG would probably be Midnight. I think Mazama is the best for the southern transition zone. Of the cultivars listed for tttf, 4th Millennium consistently scored the highest. I'm very pleased with the outcome of my reno using these cultivars.


Did you order these separately or they came in a blend?


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## Angler (Apr 9, 2021)

I ordered them separately from United Seeds. If I remember correctly, the price per pound is the same for individual cultivars as it is for a blend.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Angler said:


> I ordered them separately from United Seeds. If I remember correctly, the price per pound is the same for individual cultivars as it is for a blend.


 I think they just increased their prices! I wish I ordered last week.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

TTTF will do a bit better in high temps than KBG. They will both be prone to disease, though there are difference in the specific diseases. KBG will self-repair. TTTF may need overseeding periodically. KBG can be cut lower. Which to plant really comes down to preference. People will tell you that you should do a blend of several cultivars of KBG. I have had a three-cultivar blend and a monostand, and I didn't find myself managing them any differently. There really isn't much difference in appearance either so do the one you are more comfortable with. I eventually renovated my blend to a monostand last year.

For KBG cultivars that I would recommend the tops would be Midnight, After Midnight, Award, Prosperity, and Zinfandel. Check NTEP ratings for transition zone quality.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Anybody tried seed from southern states? AST8218LM is ranked pretty high on NTEP ratings.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Cdub5_ said:


> I'm in Oklahoma.
> SPF30. It's a hybrid bluegrass. I put the hybrid in my backyard along with a little bit of Midnight, and it is blowing away my front yard that has a mix of several other top tier bluegrasses. The SPF30 looks absolutely amazing and is holding up amazingly (with enough water!!!) than my other bluegrass varieties.
> 
> Here is a recent pic after I mowed on July 4th. We haven't had rain in at least a month, but irrigation is the main thing right now. There are a couple areas I have to focus on getting enough water, and the back strip doesn't have irrigation at the moment, plus there is a huge tree in the neighbors yard that makes grass growing tough there anyway. This grass is truly beautiful, just give it enough water and take care of it.
> ...


Do you recommend SPF 30 over midnight blue? I'm thinking to order 10-20 lbs of bluegrass seed to mix with fescue. I may end up ordering 10 lbs of each.


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano I would 100% go with SPF30. In my climate no other bluegrass matches it as far as what I have first hand experience with.
There is a large SPF30 thread on this site showing all the successful renovations people in warm climates have had with it. Bunch of useful info as well as people are bouncing ideas and tips between each other.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Cdub5_ said:


> @ceriano I would 100% go with SPF30. In my climate no other bluegrass matches it as far as what I have first hand experience with.
> There is a large SPF30 thread on this site showing all the successful renovations people in warm climates have had with it. Bunch of useful info as well as people are bouncing ideas and tips between each other.


Excellent SPF30 it is. Do you think 25lbs per 10,000 SF is overkill? The turf is already pretty thick.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is the great long thread on SPF 30. I haven't read it. But it might answer your questions.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9273

If your turf is already thick, why are you overseeding at all? How can any seed compete against an already thick turf? Also, a lawn too thickly seeded is ripe for problems, like fungus. Always best to use the seeding recommendations that come with the particular seed.


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano Oh, are you just overseeding? @Virginiagal has made some valid points.
Overseeding a pretty thick lawn may: one, be counterproductive as it could cause overcrowding leading to higher vulnerability to fungus and disease, and two it may just be a waste of money as the seed wouldn't be able to compete against the healthy existing lawn and will never reach maturity. 
You know your lawn the best so if you decide to overseed, 10lbs should be sufficient as the rates are much lower for overseeding than trying to plant a new lawn.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Here is the great long thread on SPF 30. I haven't read it. But it might answer your questions.
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=9273
> 
> If your turf is already thick, why are you overseeding at all? How can any seed compete against an already thick turf? Also, a lawn too thickly seeded is ripe for problems, like fungus. Always best to use the seeding recommendations that come with the particular seed.


@Virginiagal its not as uniform as I like it to be. I used several different types of seeds last year and I didn't do a good job spreading it uniformly. The growth rate and color is rather uneven. I have also noticed some die back so I imagine by the end summer it will thin out.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Cdub5_ said:


> @ceriano Oh, are you just overseeding? @Virginiagal has made some valid points.
> Overseeding a pretty thick lawn may: one, be counterproductive as it could cause overcrowding leading to higher vulnerability to fungus and disease, and two it may just be a waste of money as the seed wouldn't be able to compete against the healthy existing lawn and will never reach maturity.
> You know your lawn the best so if you decide to overseed, 10lbs should be sufficient as the rates are much lower for overseeding than trying to plant a new lawn.


@Cdub5_ i think the recommended rates are under ideal conditions. I put down over 200lbs of seed last year and yet some areas are still thin. I can't imagine how it'd look if I only put down 50lbs.


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano 200lbs!! Holy cow man lol! I'm sorry I don't mean to laugh I don't know what sort of situation you are facing, but man, 200lbs for 10,000sqft even for fescue is very high. Now was last year a full reno job or overseeding?

Are you in a very shaded area, or do you get full sunlight? There may be an underlying issue other than grass seed that is keeping you from an ideal lawn. If the soil is in poor condition, for instance, you can throw all sorts of grass seed at it but nothing will stick.

If there are habitual thin areas, perhaps there is debris lurking a few inches under the soil. Carefully try poking something into the ground around 6 inches and see if you hit anything hard. There can be all sorts of crap under the soil.

Is it possible to post a pic of your lawn? Maybe letting some of us get our eyeballs on it could help you out more effectively.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

The seeding rate for SPF 30 is 3-4 lb per 1000 sq ft for a renovation, 1-2 lb per 1000 sq ft for overseeding. If you don't get germination from whatever you plant, it may be a matter of poor seed to soil contact or a watering issue. Take a look at the overseeding guide and see if you're doing what is recommended:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6250
If the problem is it grows but dies out later, there is a host of other things to look at, and Cdub5 has mentioned some of them.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Cdub5_ said:


> @ceriano 200lbs!! Holy cow man lol! I'm sorry I don't mean to laugh I don't know what sort of situation you are facing, but man, 200lbs for 10,000sqft even for fescue is very high. Now was last year a full reno job or overseeding?
> 
> Are you in a very shaded area, or do you get full sunlight? There may be an underlying issue other than grass seed that is keeping you from an ideal lawn. If the soil is in poor condition, for instance, you can throw all sorts of grass seed at it but nothing will stick.
> 
> ...


@Cdub5_ it wasn't a full reno. I closed on the house in late august. I had a month or so to establish the lawn. It was nothing but weed. I had true green spray a couple of times, then I scalped aerated and reseed. 
The site was a new construction, poor heavy clay no top soil. Some trouble areas have shallow rocks which prevent the root pushing deep. 
Here are a few pics. I mowed the lawn last week. One side is pushing 4" the other side has barely grown.
I believe that side is mostly heat tolerant blue grass. I may be wrong. The dark patches are the spot the dogs went. I reseeded with Jonathan green hence the color difference! I don't know what I was thinking.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> The seeding rate for SPF 30 is 3-4 lb per 1000 sq ft for a renovation, 1-2 lb per 1000 sq ft for overseeding. If you don't get germination from whatever you plant, it may be a matter of poor seed to soil contact or a watering issue. Take a look at the overseeding guide and see if you're doing what is recommended:
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6250
> If the problem is it grows but dies out later, there is a host of other things to look at, and Cdub5 has mentioned some of them.


@Virginiagal I should've top dressed after reseeding, that would've helped with soil to seed contact. 
You can see the color difference in this aerial photo.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Did you fertilize earlier this year? I think several applications of fall fertilizer starting in late August/early September will make a world of difference. The grass looks a little floppy. If you've been doing 4 inches for height of cut, I'd bring it down gradually to 3. I kept mine at 2.5 until July and it's now 3. There is better air circulation with it on the shorter side. It's going back down to 2.5 in September. With thunderstorms about every day we can't complain of drought. I don't see space for new grass to grow. It looks too thick in general right now. If there are some bare areas here and there, you could scratch those up with a rake and put some seed down next month but there is no need for general overseeding. The color difference is likely due to nitrogen or lack of it. Or maybe something else to do with the soil. A soil test would be useful. You had plenty of germination. And you've managed to avoid weeds. I think you have a good start. If you know of spots with rocks just under the surface, dig them out. They will be a continued problem if you don't.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

This lawn looks underfed. The dog spots are clear indication.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Did you fertilize earlier this year? I think several applications of fall fertilizer starting in late August/early September will make a world of difference. The grass looks a little floppy. If you've been doing 4 inches for height of cut, I'd bring it down gradually to 3. I kept mine at 2.5 until July and it's now 3. There is better air circulation with it on the shorter side. It's going back down to 2.5 in September. With thunderstorms about every day we can't complain of drought. I don't see space for new grass to grow. It looks too thick in general right now. If there are some bare areas here and there, you could scratch those up with a rake and put some seed down next month but there is no need for general overseeding. The color difference is likely due to nitrogen or lack of it. Or maybe something else to do with the soil. A soil test would be useful. You had plenty of germination. And you've managed to avoid weeds. I think you have a good start. If you know of spots with rocks just under the surface, dig them out. They will be a continued problem if you don't.


@Virginiagal @g-man i put down 0.75lbs of nitrogen in March and 0.5lbs in late April. The darker areas are different type seed. I may pull another sample in Fall see what's going on. 
@Virginiagal The grass is floppy. I wish I used a different type seed. Cross creek got the same seed at the nursery and looks exactly the same. Fine texture soft but floppy.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

That's an appropriate amount of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft in the spring, I assume you fertilized last fall too. However, it still looks like it needs nitrogen. What seed did you use last fall? What other seed did you add to it? You mentioned Jonathan Green, I think. They have an all TTTF blend and a blend of TTTF, KBG, and perennial rye. The rye would not perform well here. Plus there are other JG blends. Cross Creek has a seed for sale described as TTTF. Fine fescue is a thin, floppy sort of grass put into shady lawn mixtures but I doubt you would have gotten that.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> That's an appropriate amount of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft in the spring, I assume you fertilized last fall too. However, it still looks like it needs nitrogen. What seed did you use last fall? What other seed did you add to it? You mentioned Jonathan Green, I think. They have an all TTTF blend and a blend of TTTF, KBG, and perennial rye. The rye would not perform well here. Plus there are other JG blends. Cross Creek has a seed for sale described as TTTF. Fine fescue is a thin, floppy sort of grass put into shady lawn mixtures but I doubt you would have gotten that.


@Virginiagal This is what I used: none had fine fescue. 
80lbs Pennington Rebel
50lbs cross creeks tttf, it was a mix of houndog 8, Fayette and if I remember correctly turfway
40lbs Scott's heat tolerant blue
20lbs Scott's southern gold
Spot patching Scott's EZ patch, and Jonathan green black beauty <10lbs.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Ok, looks like you have mostly TTTF. The heat tolerant Scott's product is a mix of TTTF and a hybrid bluegrass. Both of the Scott's are only half seed, the other half being coating. I'm guessing you put these only in particular areas rather than spreading them throughout the yard. In any case, you used too much seed. Here's what U Mass has to say abiut excessive seeding rates:
"In most circumstances, seeding at excessive rates will result in a stand containing a high number of small, immature (juvenile) plants. These will be slow to develop into mature and robust adult plants which are more tolerant of environmental stresses such as heat, drought, cold, and wear. Therefore it is important to avoid the temptation to seed at excessively high rates (i.e. "more must be better" mentality) which can delay or postpone turf stand development. Recommended seeding rate ranges take into account several factors such as seed size and number, growth habit, and minimum purity and germination differences that exist among species."
https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/seeding-rate-considerations

I still think your best bet is to fertilize well this fall. But if you just hate, hate, hate the grass you have and want something else, you will have to kill everything and start over. Here are guidelines on renovation:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=16808
Just an overseeding will, not be successful. There is no room for more plants. If you do a renovation, pay attention to the recommended rates. KBG seeds are much tinier than TTTF seeds and SPF30 seeds are tiny too. KBG and SPF30 take a long time to germinate (2-3 weeks) and you have to be patient. Seeding TTTF is less stressful. If all of this is stressful, remember there is always sod.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is a study comparing seeding just TTTF and just hybrid bluegrass and a combination of the two:
https://journals.ashs.org/downloadpdf/journals/hortsci/48/4/article-p493.pdf


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Ok, looks like you have mostly TTTF. The heat tolerant Scott's product is a mix of TTTF and a hybrid bluegrass. Both of the Scott's are only half seed, the other half being coating. I'm guessing you put these only in particular areas rather than spreading them throughout the yard. In any case, you used too much seed. Here's what U Mass has to say abiut excessive seeding rates:
> "In most circumstances, seeding at excessive rates will result in a stand containing a high number of small, immature (juvenile) plants. These will be slow to develop into mature and robust adult plants which are more tolerant of environmental stresses such as heat, drought, cold, and wear. Therefore it is important to avoid the temptation to seed at excessively high rates (i.e. "more must be better" mentality) which can delay or postpone turf stand development. Recommended seeding rate ranges take into account several factors such as seed size and number, growth habit, and minimum purity and germination differences that exist among species."
> https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/seeding-rate-considerations
> 
> ...


@Virginiagal this is super helpful thank you! This explains why my grass is not thickening up. I'll have it double aerated and fertilize in the fall see if that makes a difference. I was planning to put down another 100lbs of seed but I guess I'll have to scale back!


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Good. When you were talking about 30 lb of KBG seed, in addition to lots of TTTF, it seemed like a disaster in the making plus a total waste of money, time, and effort. Each pound of KBG has over a million seeds, some varieties more than others.

As for aerating, if your soil is compacted it will help. If your soil is not compacted, it's not necessary. It will bring up weed seeds and you should prepare to fight weeds. If you need lime (soil test will tell you), put the lime down while the aeration holes are open. If you need lime and decide not to aerate, late fall, like November, is a good time to apply it.

A thread on the fall "nitrogen blitz":
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=753

Don't forget to dig out rocks when you can. If every year grass performs poorly in a certain area, it's likely an underground obstruction that is the problem. Aerating might help identify where rocks are as the machine will have problems with rocks close to the surface.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Good. When you were talking about 30 lb of KBG seed, in addition to lots of TTTF, it seemed like a disaster in the making plus a total waste of money, time, and effort. Each pound of KBG has over a million seeds, some varieties more than others.
> 
> As for aerating, if your soil is compacted it will help. If your soil is not compacted, it's not necessary. It will bring up weed seeds and you should prepare to fight weeds. If you need lime (soil test will tell you), put the lime down while the aeration holes are open. If you need lime and decide not to aerate, late fall, like November, is a good time to apply it.
> 
> ...


@Virginiagal i understand blue grass seeds are very small but I feel it'd be hard to spread 10 lbs over 10000 SF. Even with a small hand spreader. I'm afraid I'd run out of seed.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I've never planted KBG so I don't know exactly how they spread it. It would seem to need a spreader with very small holes. Maybe someone else will chime in. Here's a piece from VA Tech on which cool season grasses are suited to which parts of Virginia:
https://ext.vt.edu/lawn-garden/turfandgardentips/tips/Cool-season_Lawn_Selecting_the_Best_Grass.html


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano It looks like people are getting you on the right track.
Your lawn looks like it has tons of potential. As mentioned above, an overseed is probably the absolute last thing you need.
It looks as if you just need a solid maintenance plan and I guarantee this time next year your lawn will look waaay better than it does now.

Check out Pete from GCI Turf on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/c/GCITurfServices/videos Any of his videos from the beginning of his channel up until summer or 2021 he provides loads of information on TTTF and shows him actively working on his amazing lawn (after summer of '21 he switches to kbg and bermuda).

Of course there are lots of people on this site with picture perfect TTTF lawns. You should browse through the journals of these people's lawns and take note of what they are doing to yield the amazing results they get.

Since you have gone through with putting this seed down, you should give it a year and see what you can do with it. If all else fails, or you have your mind made up you truly want kbg then I would start immediately the reno process or plan to do the reno next summer/fall (it takes at least 1 month to really kill off the existing lawn so be sure to factor this in when timing a reno.) My first reno I started late, August 22, but the weather cooperated and everything turned out perfectly.

I think you have all the tools you need for which ever route you take and I have faith you will succeed in whatever you decide. :thumbup:


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

@Virginiagal @Cdub5_ Do you see any benefits in putting down a mild organic fertilizer in mid/late August or it will do more harm than good?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

It usually takes a few weeks for organic fertilizer to make the nitrogen available, so it would be September when the grass gets it. That's time for fall fertilization to start. Have you read the nitrogen blitz thread? You can do this approach if you're not seeding.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=753


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano Honestly, if you haven't in the past 2 years or never have done it, take that $25 you were gonna use on the fert and go to https://www.waypointanalytical.com/ and let them perform a soil test for you.

The soil test is as important for home owners as a compass is for a sailor. It gives you a sense of "navigation" on what your lawn/soil needs and just as importantly what it does not need.

It's so simple to do. Just need a ziplock bag for the soil and a little box to put it in then ship it off at the post office.





Other than the soil test, your grass almost looks "too thick". If you don't have a dethatcher I would get the electric Sun Joe Dethatcher/Scarifier (I don't recommend the Greenworks version, it's fine, just think the Sun Joe gets better results). It's cheap and it is pretty strong (don't forget you must have an adequate gauge extension cord). No, the dethatcher doesn't necessarily thin the lawn, but it will pull up all that junk that has most likely piled up for a long time. Doing this in the early fall will let your lawn breathe. Then I would do some research on the "nitrogen blitz" for tttf and really feed it good this fall https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=753 Of course fall preemergent is the most important step in the fall, but I don't want to get ahead of myself as I already have :lol:

Consider all of this and next year I think you will see the results you have been searching for.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> It usually takes a few weeks for organic fertilizer to make the nitrogen available, so it would be September when the grass gets it. That's time for fall fertilization to start. Have you read the nitrogen blitz thread? You can do this approach if you're not seeding.
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=753


I may have no choice but to reseed. There are several areas with broomsedge, Dallis grass and paspalum that I'll have to kill off and reseed. I won't be reseeding the front but bayckard can use a reseed.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Cdub5_ said:


> @ceriano Honestly, if you haven't in the past 2 years or never have done it, take that $25 you were gonna use on the fert and go to https://www.waypointanalytical.com/ and let them perform a soil test for you.
> 
> The soil test is as important for home owners as a compass is for a sailor. It gives you a sense of "navigation" on what your lawn/soil needs and just as importantly what it does not need.
> 
> ...


@Cdub5_ thanks for the tips. I'll check out the detacher. I've seen them on the marketplace. Wasn't sure if they're any good.
As far as soil test goes yes I had that done in spring I have an aggressive plan to bring up the parameters. My soil is pretty much deficient in everything.


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

@ceriano Looks like you are on the right track. :thumbup: 
If you haven't already, I would start putting down lime apps immediately. Lime takes a while to start having a noticeable effect on the soil. Your soil is barely too acidic and outside the optimal levels for tttf. Correcting this ph level is crucial to a healthy lawn.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

An idea on how you could do the fertiiizer: You could alternate between a balanced fertilizer, like 10-10-10, and urea, 50-0-0. VA Tech is saying use a fertilizer that has twice as much nitrogen as phosphorus and potassium, not that any such product exists. But you could do a half pound of nitrogen every two weeks through September and October, switching back and forth between the two fertilizers (balanced, urea). Then in November decide if you want to do a last fertilization with urea. If you overseed, hold off on fertilizer for a couple of weeks after seeding. If you renovate a section, you should go even lighter, like 1/4 lb of nitrogen when you start fertilizing.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> An idea on how you could do the fertiiizer: You could alternate between a balanced fertilizer, like 10-10-10, and urea, 50-0-0. VA Tech is saying use a fertilizer that has twice as much nitrogen as phosphorus and potassium, not that any such product exists. But you could do a half pound of nitrogen every two weeks through September and October, switching back and forth between the two fertilizers (balanced, urea). Then in November decide if you want to do a last fertilization with urea. If you overseed, hold off on fertilizer for a couple of weeks after seeding. If you renovate a section, you should go even lighter, like 1/4 lb of nitrogen when you start fertilizing.


@Virginiagal i have 20lbs of SOP left from spring application and a 50lbs bag of triple super phosphate 0-44-0. I'm planning to apply both in early September 2-3 weeks before reseeding. For phosphorus I probably do 1.5lbs in 2 applications and re-test the soil in spring see where I am. Or I may just do 1 app at 1lbs/ksf and call the day. Nitrogen has to come from urea. Next season I may shift to balanced fert. 
Btw I was at southern states today and they got plenty of seed in. This may be my best bet for the prices.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Sure, that's fine, Next year you might not even need the P and K. All those seeds are on VA Tech's list. No weed seed, no other crop. Blue certified, Go for it.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ceriano said:


> Anybody tried seed from southern states? AST8218LM is ranked pretty high on NTEP ratings.


AST is from Allied seed. I've used their Ryegrass seed through Agway (Southern States up North). It has been wonderful except for one thing: tendency toward rust disease (like most Ryegrass). Very dark green. I expect their TTTF will be equally as good. Their seed (both PR and TF) are rated very well in the NTEP. I would not hesitate to try it.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Sure, that's fine, Next year you might not even need the P and K. All those seeds are on VA Tech's list. No weed seed, no other crop. Blue certified, Go for it.


Is it ok to store the seed in a hot garage or it may impact the germination?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Seed is a living, precious thing. Please find somewhere else to store it. Can't you keep it in your airconditioned house for a few weeks? Maybe in a mud room, guest room, pantry? You're not going to need all 50 lb for your backyard so you should have leftovers. I store my leftovers in a 5 gallon bucket in the basement. I have a bit left over from last year's armyworm attack and it's enough to patch where dogs walking down the street pee and the area under the tree that always thins out. Other than that I will have no overseeding this year, hurray!


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> Seed is a living, precious thing. Please find somewhere else to store it. Can't you keep it in your airconditioned house for a few weeks? Maybe in a mud room, guest room, pantry? You're not going to need all 50 lb for your backyard so you should have leftovers. I store my leftovers in a 5 gallon bucket in the basement. I have a bit left over from last year's armyworm attack and it's enough to patch where dogs walking down the street pee and the area under the tree that always thins out. Other than that I will have no overseeding this year, hurray!


Where do you think the seed is stored before you buy it?


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

The best seed of choice for your area is what your local sod farm and farm store is selling. Just make sure the tag says 0.0%/0.0%. You might have to check a couple pallets as they can differ slightly.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

Green said:


> ceriano said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody tried seed from southern states? AST8218LM is ranked pretty high on NTEP ratings.
> ...


Both AST8118LM and 8218LM have ranked very high for color but they are prone to brown patch.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

learningeveryday said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > Seed is a living, precious thing. Please find somewhere else to store it. Can't you keep it in your airconditioned house for a few weeks? Maybe in a mud room, guest room, pantry? You're not going to need all 50 lb for your backyard so you should have leftovers. I store my leftovers in a 5 gallon bucket in the basement. I have a bit left over from last year's armyworm attack and it's enough to patch where dogs walking down the street pee and the area under the tree that always thins out. Other than that I will have no overseeding this year, hurray!
> ...


Hopefully in a big airy warehouse. I have been to the one Trinity Turf has here in Richmond and though not air conditioned, it was fairly comfortable inside. If the garage is hot, that not a good place (or a good place in freezing weather).


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here's an interesting article on seed storage:
https://seedlab.oregonstate.edu/training-education/publications/maintaining-grass-seed-viability-storage


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## 7824 (Oct 23, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> learningeveryday said:
> 
> 
> > Virginiagal said:
> ...


What about the delivery trucks?

It was hot in the Newsom warehouse when I was there last August and it was hot in The Mill warehouse last week.


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## ceriano (Oct 6, 2021)

learningeveryday said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > learningeveryday said:
> ...


Long term exposure probably does more damage. I bought some year old seed from trinity this spring. I was not impressed with germination that's one reason why I'm looking for a different source.


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