# Doing a LARGE backyard reno soon...should I go with Bermuda???



## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

So we just moved to a new home in Northern Virginia. The front yard is 4000sqft of gorgeous, well-maintained TTTF. A few years back the previous owner put in a nice Rachio-controlled irrigation system, too! So doing pretty well there.

The backyard, however, is a hot mess. Its main area is about 10,000 sqft of a patchy quiltwork of various grasses and dirt/mud spots, with lots of uneven areas and poor drainage. It wasn't graded well, and has the added complication of having two large HDPE culverts/pipes running under the yard diagonally, carrying a creek underneath. They're only about 6 feet wide, so even though they run diagonally under the yard, they don't "obstruct" too much of the yard in terms of restricting what I can do in the downward direction. But, the water doesn't drain well above them. There's about 10 to 12 inches of dirt above the pipes, and I speculate that they probably packed the dirt down pretty hard over the pipe work and possibly with a layer like landscape fabric in between. Either way, just not great drainage in that portion of the backyard.



So, in terms of work I've done or am planning to do to "re-do" the backyard:
1) I removed a bunch of big trees (and their stumps) from the middle of the backyard, to get much more sunlight in. It is really helping. Now that some of the trees at the outer edge/perimeter of the yard have filled in with spring greenery, I'm going to measure the sunlight later today and see how many hours I get of near-full sun, at least for in April/May.
2) RE-GRADING: I interviewed a bunch of drainage/erosion and landscape companies for clearing, grading and leveling the backyard. I am going with the one that seemed most expert (and well-reviewed online) and that had the best plan for the job. They're going to build up some of the lower-lying areas by a few inches and then grade to get good fall from the NE corner to the SW corner. And will also add a shallow swale near to where the culverts are, to help move runoff there. They start in about 3 weeks.
3) SOD: They will also install sod after they complete the grading work.

Now, given all that, I wanted to seek the advice of the warm-season grass experts here 😊 So my main goals for the lawn are to establish a super-resilient turf for sports purposes...I have 3 boys that play soccer/football/baseball with their friends most afternoons in the backyard. They absolutely demolished my last home's backyard (TTTF). I just couldn't keep up with trying to re-grow the wear zones. Even with rotating the soccer goal, home plate, etc.

So I started looking first at Zoysia (Empire, Zeon, Geo) given wear tolerance and lower input and maintenance reqts. But after researching more, I'm now leaning away from Zoysia based on my belief that Zoysia wouldn't self-heal/grow back the inevitable wear zones quite as quickly or well as a well-maintained Bermuda might. Since I'm in the Transition zone and Northern VA gets pretty cold winters (and hot summers), I know I need to look at cold-tolerant Bermuda species. So far Latitude 36 and Tahoma 31 are what I've found from research and talking to a few sod farms, that seem to meet those requirements.

So, given my goals for the lawn (resilience/wear-tolerance/self-heal ability) and my climate, am I barking up the right tree with Lat 36 or Tahoma 31? This is a big investment, and I love doing the maintenance, but I want to make sure I'm starting with the best chance for success to meet the goals.

I'd love any feedback you have on any aspect of the above (even including the grading work, if someone has experience there) and especially on whether going with a cold-hardy Bermuda is the right choice!

(And here's a little video clip I made of the backyard situation: https://youtu.be/y11oUZ--QDk)


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Being a soccer player myself, I can definitely say that Bermuda is a top notch playing surface. It does heal quickly, and the fine blades seem to give you better purchase under the ball, and makes cutting better when you turn. I've played on Zoysia fields, and they look great when they're meticulously maintained, but traffic really tears them up. @Kberg84 maintains latitude 36 fields in Orlando, he may be a good reference for this.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Thanks, @Dono1183. I played growing up and definitely appreciated the Bermuda surfaces. In addition to the advantages you mention, Bermuda also gives that super thick that feels so even underfoot. And, when it is maintained at a low HOC as the better-supported facilities tend to do, the ball moves quicker and doesn't get "stuck" underfoot, like you sometimes get with fields of other turf types that need higher HOC.

I think I'm close to sold that Bermuda would be ideal for the surface I'm looking for. But I'm a little bit uneasy regarding my area's climate/temperatures and how well-suited I am for Bermuda. The literature on Latitude 36 or Tahoma 31 is promising, but I'm hoping there might be someone out there in the broader Washington DC/NoVA/Maryland area that has maintained either type with success!


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

LushLife18 said:


> Thanks, @Dono1183. I played growing up and definitely appreciated the Bermuda surfaces. In addition to the advantages you mention, Bermuda also gives that super thick that feels so even underfoot. And, when it is maintained at a low HOC as the better-supported facilities tend to do, the ball moves quicker and doesn't get "stuck" underfoot, like you sometimes get with fields of other turf types that need higher HOC.
> 
> I think I'm close to sold that Bermuda would be ideal for the surface I'm looking for. But I'm a little bit uneasy regarding my area's climate/temperatures and how well-suited I am for Bermuda. The literature on Latitude 36 or Tahoma 31 is promising, but I'm hoping there might be someone out there in the broader Washington DC/NoVA/Maryland area that has maintained either type with success!


Good luck on the project! I look forward to seeing your results. ⚽


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

I can tell you that latitude 36 gets a nice deep shade of green….and stripes beautifully! It can get real thick and puffy so dethatching is needed from time to time. Recovers nicely from wear and tolerates cold weather…consecutive days of frost will ding it up a little bit depending where you live. I also have tiftuf at the house. Here is the latitude 36 about a week after applying ammonium sulfate in preparation for a match




This is the tiftuf I have at the house


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

LushLife18 said:


> Thanks, @Dono1183. I played growing up and definitely appreciated the Bermuda surfaces. In addition to the advantages you mention, Bermuda also gives that super thick that feels so even underfoot. And, when it is maintained at a low HOC as the better-supported facilities tend to do, the ball moves quicker and doesn't get "stuck" underfoot, like you sometimes get with fields of other turf types that need higher HOC.
> 
> I think I'm close to sold that Bermuda would be ideal for the surface I'm looking for. But I'm a little bit uneasy regarding my area's climate/temperatures and how well-suited I am for Bermuda. The literature on Latitude 36 or Tahoma 31 is promising, but I'm hoping there might be someone out there in the broader Washington DC/NoVA/Maryland area that has maintained either type with success!


Big redskins fan here….crap…Washington football team fan here. They have latitude 36 at fedex field they play on. I believe a few years ago they tried out Tifgrand for either a season or part of a season and I believe they tried it out due to the shade they receive on the field from the stadium. I've read and heard great things about Tahoma 31. You can pull off Bermuda in VA….it'll go dormant but it'll come back every year.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Kberg84 said:


> I can tell you that latitude 36 gets a nice deep shade of green….and stripes beautifully! It can get real thick and puffy so dethatching is needed from time to time. Recovers nicely from wear and tolerates cold weather…consecutive days of frost will ding it up a little bit depending where you live. I also have tiftuf at the house. Here is the latitude 36 about a week after applying ammonium sulfate in preparation for a match


@Kberg84 Wow. Those soccer fields and your lawn look gorgeous! Beautiful darker green on the Lat 36.



Kberg84 said:


> Big redskins fan here….crap…Washington football team fan here. They have latitude 36 at fedex field they play on. I believe a few years ago they tried out Tifgrand for either a season or part of a season and I believe they tried it out due to the shade they receive on the field from the stadium. I've read and heard great things about Tahoma 31. You can pull off Bermuda in VA….it'll go dormant but it'll come back every year.


Didn't know that Fedex was Lat 36. That's a huge vote of confidence for me! Thanks for the backup... I'm feeling much better about going with Lat 36 or Tahoma 31. Now I just need to decide!


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I think @LeftTool has Tahoma 31 in his yard.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

Any bluegrass hybrids in your area? They are least self heal but not as fast as a Bermuda. BG is not as firm.

I just can't describe any Bermuda is 'super thick' - zoysia is. But per your criteria, Bermuda is it.

Your plan is solid, it's got to drain or grass will disease out


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

LushLife18 said:


> Kberg84 said:
> 
> 
> > I can tell you that latitude 36 gets a nice deep shade of green….and stripes beautifully! It can get real thick and puffy so dethatching is needed from time to time. Recovers nicely from wear and tolerates cold weather…consecutive days of frost will ding it up a little bit depending where you live. I also have tiftuf at the house. Here is the latitude 36 about a week after applying ammonium sulfate in preparation for a match
> ...


You won't be disappointed with latitude. We are Orlando city soccers training facility. There stadium also has latitude but will be converting to tahoma in may. Don't think you can go wrong with either.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

@jayhawk I haven't seen too many hybrid Kentucky BG in my area. Beautiful grass, but I wander if it would be a bit more fragile under lots of stress from foot traffic.

@Kberg84 Orlando City - way cool! Ever meet Kaká?  Curious that they're converting their stadium to Tahoma. Some better performance than the Latitude?


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

latitude looks beautiful in the pictures posted on this thread and in others on this forum. There isn't a cool-season grass that will hold up? I am in southern North Carolina and have 5 ish months of my yard looking like a hay-field in the dormant months. I would imagine you would have 6 months of the year in dormancy even with Tahoma or Latitude. Are you good with that?


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

rjw0283 said:


> latitude looks beautiful in the pictures posted on this thread and in others on this forum. There isn't a cool-season grass that will hold up? I am in southern North Carolina and have 5 ish months of my yard looking like a hay-field in the dormant months. I would imagine you would have 6 months of the year in dormancy even with Tahoma or Latitude. Are you good with that?


@rjw0283 Really great question. I'm not 100% sure since I've not had Bermuda. In terms of looks/aesthetics, I don't have a big issue with the yellow/brown during dormancy. But I know the kids will still be out using the backyard a bit during the winter and early spring - is the dormant grass weaker? Would I need to prohibit heavy use (sports etc.) while it's dormant to avoid it getting ripped up and worn down to bare dirt?


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

it can get warn down, but as long as conditions are ideal, it will recover. I love Bermuda for how quick it spreads and the ability to mow it at 3/8 of an inch or lower, I have always had a thing for short-cut grass, I hate how it goes dormant and turns into hay. I wish they would make a variant that stays green all year.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

rjw0283 said:


> it can get warn down, but as long as conditions are ideal, it will recover. I love Bermuda for how quick it spreads and the ability to mow it at 3/8 of an inch or lower, I have always had a thing for short-cut grass, I hate how it goes dormant and turns into hay. I wish they would make a variant that stays green all year.


@rjw0283 Copy that. And I might end up trying a PRG overseed in the fall to get some green in the spring. Would that also help protect the dormant Bermuda a bit and give a better lawn surface for March/April/May (while the Bermuda is still sleeping) for the kids to use for sports?


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## BubbaGrumpus (Jun 17, 2019)

Are you against TTTF? I mean it's in the front.

You're getting the main issues solved. Taking it a bit further by installing sprinklers back there would be simple to do after the grading is done.

Fescue is some beautiful grass. Maintenance would be lower as well. Warm season grass needs to be mowed several times a week to get to looking like those sports fields.

My recommendation: Get the grading fixed, install a sprinkler system, plant fescue.. enjoy the backyard.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

BubbaGrumpus said:


> Are you against TTTF? I mean it's in the front.
> 
> You're getting the main issues solved. Taking it a bit further by installing sprinklers back there would be simple to do after the grading is done.
> 
> ...


@BubbaGrumpus Nothing against TTTF. I think it's a beautiful turf and I had it in the backyard at my old house. Issue was that the kids would just wear it down and I couldn't keep up with reseeding/regrowing fast enough. (You can only rotate the soccer goals so much when you have a relatively small yard  ) So each season my lawn was a patchwork of new grasslings, dirt, and pristine beautiful turf in the corners/sides...not really great for aesthetics or for a playing surface!

I'm looking at Bermuda because it seems to be more wear-tolerant and also faster to self-heal (in it's growing season). Mowing maintenance will be higher effort, but that's why I have older boys.

But I'm not sold on Bermuda. If you think TTTF or even a KBG/TTTF mix might hold up and heal up as well as Bermuda, I'm all ears and happy to learn!


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## Zimmerman (May 20, 2019)

I would think less FedEx field and more nationals park.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

My kids will have a party and they will have it looking like a herd of buffalo came running through. By the next weekend it has recovered. That's why I love having bermuda in my backyard. Don't ask me how much I mow though...


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Zimmerman said:


> I would think less FedEx field and more nationals park.


I believe Nats park uses a three-way blend of KBG (Brilliant, Midnight Star and Princeton 105). What are the advantages you see for moving in that direction? I'd be worried that KBG would be a bit less hardy for all the foot traffic wear and tear.

And for KBG I'd think I'd for sure need to install irrigation for the backyard 10Ksqft. Though perhaps the overall maintenance load (mainly speaking about mowing)would be less in that case, and that might be a reasonable tradeoff, if my budget could support the higher initial cost and recurring cost (watering). But still just not sure how the KBG would hold up to my herd of wild buffalos trampling it. Thoughts?


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## Zimmerman (May 20, 2019)

The NTEP trials indicate to me that bluegrass is better, longer during the year in Virginia. The only downside I see is extra water compared to Bermuda during the summer. They can both be cut low, they both like fertilizer, and they both self repair. And you won't have to overseed each fall. I'd also see what the local sod farms sell. If none of them have Bermuda, I'd personally stay away. If they do sell it, I would consider. Another option would be to try out one of those bluemuda mixes.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here is Va Tech's list of recommended varieties:
https://www.sites.ext.vt.edu/newsletter-archive/turfgrass/2021-2022.pdf


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Zimmerman said:


> The NTEP trials indicate to me that bluegrass is better, longer during the year in Virginia. The only downside I see is extra water compared to Bermuda during the summer. They can both be cut low, they both like fertilizer, and they both self repair. And you won't have to overseed each fall. I'd also see what the local sod farms sell. If none of them have Bermuda, I'd personally stay away. If they do sell it, I would consider. Another option would be to try out one of those bluemuda mixes.


@Zimmerman Yeah being able to avoid the fall overseed would be huge. Really appreciate you turning me on to Bluemuda. Would seem to give me the best availability and wear recovery, at minimial costs. Definitely going to look into that!

And maybe if I did go with Bluemuda, I start with "backwards" with KBG sod first, to see how it holds up for traffic tolerance and self-repair, and at that point either determine it's OK as-is (and keep it KBG only and don't add Bermuda) or determine it's time to start sprigging in some Bermuda. Would that be a bad plan?


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Update after a few months... I ended up going with the Tahoma 31 and it's looking gorgeous. I'll finish my lawn journal soon, hopefully, but I wanted to post some pics here since ya'll have been so great in helping me figure out which way to go!





Now I want to get my HOC lower and I'm looking at the pre-owned Reel mower market. First trying to figure out what HOC I want to settle at. This reference https://extension.tennessee.edu/publications/documents/PB1632.pdf says "Mow vegetatively established hybrids at a cutting height from 3/4 to 1½ inches; 'Common' and improved, common bermudagrasses, from 1 to 1½ inches." So absent any other advice, I'd probably do something like 1.25". Which incidentally is the max HOC of the Toro Greensmaster 1600 which I've been looking at.

@Kberg84 What HOC do you guys use for your Orlando City soccer fields?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Those HOC recommendations are double what I would recommend but I am not much of a university guy.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

LushLife18 said:


> Update after a few months... I ended up going with the Tahoma 31 and it's looking gorgeous. I'll finish my lawn journal soon, hopefully, but I wanted to post some pics here since ya'll have been so great in helping me figure out which way to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks awesome! Great transformation. Hoc for soccer fields should be 1 inch. UEFA states the maximum height of the grass can't exceed 30 mm, which is 1.1 inches roughly.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> LushLife18 said:
> 
> 
> > Update after a few months... I ended up going with the Tahoma 31 and it's looking gorgeous. I'll finish my lawn journal soon, hopefully, but I wanted to post some pics here since ya'll have been so great in helping me figure out which way to go!
> ...


That's a great reference. If it's good enough for UEFA, it's good enough for me!  I think most European athletic fields are PRG, but I'm sure the logic still applies. @Kberg84 does 1" line up with what you guys do?


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

LushLife18 said:


> @jayhawk I haven't seen too many hybrid Kentucky BG in my area. Beautiful grass, but I wander if it would be a bit more fragile under lots of stress from foot traffic.
> 
> @Kberg84 Orlando City - way cool! Ever meet Kaká?  Curious that they're converting their stadium to Tahoma. Some better performance than the Latitude?


Yes I actually did meet him. They actually switched it to Northbridge. They were having the special Olympics pics in there stadium and part of the contract was to resod the field. They ended up going with the Northbridge.


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

LushLife18 said:


> Update after a few months... I ended up going with the Tahoma 31 and it's looking gorgeous. I'll finish my lawn journal soon, hopefully, but I wanted to post some pics here since ya'll have been so great in helping me figure out which way to go!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about the delayed response. Loving your tahoma! I love the darker green bermudas. We mow our fields between .750 and .900 so 3/4 to just under an inch.


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

All of the premier league fields are synthetic with prg. It's pretty cool to learn about there fields if you do a little research.


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

If you want to see some sweet timing consuming patterns on a field….google Leicester city soccer field. Designs are no longer permitted on the fields as a result of them lol.


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## LushLife18 (May 10, 2021)

Kberg84 said:


> Sorry about the delayed response. Loving your tahoma! I love the darker green bermudas. We mow our fields between .750 and .900 so 3/4 to just under an inch.


Rock on! Great to know how ya'll do it down there. I think I'll give right around there a try. Going to try to find the sweet spot between best playability and best durability.

Yeah I'm digging the Tahoma. It's turned out even darker than I had thought, and all without any iron yet. Boys are asking when we're going to put lines on the field, hah.

I took a look at the LCFC fields. WOW. Did not know how intricate they used to cut those - really works of art!


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Kberg84 said:


> If you want to see some sweet timing consuming patterns on a field….google Leicester city soccer field. Designs are no longer permitted on the fields as a result of them lol.


It was a bummer when they did that. I looked forward to their field designs. I'm sure it made it harder for ARs to call offsides, but now with VAR, I don't see why it should be a problem. Have you seen that City just redid their pitch with a vacuum system? Pretty wild. 
https://amp.mancity.com/news/mens/etihad-stadium-pitch-progress-gallery-63758757


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## Kberg84 (May 20, 2020)

Dono1183 said:


> Kberg84 said:
> 
> 
> > If you want to see some sweet timing consuming patterns on a field….google Leicester city soccer field. Designs are no longer permitted on the fields as a result of them lol.
> ...


I have seen it. It's pretty wild the technology involved in there fields.


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