# 4th Millennium vs Rhizing Moon TTTF



## bf7

Not sure if anyone is interested, but in case you are looking into these fescue types, thought I would post the results of my experiment.

I have to say I am extremely impressed with both 4th Millennium and Rhizing Moon. I planted each in tupperware containers a little under a month ago, and the growth has been incredible. Germination in 5 days, and I've already had to cut them at least 6 or 7 times. They are very similar visually - can barely tell them apart. If you look very close, I believe the Rhizing Moon is coming in just a smidge darker and thicker than 4th M. I believe RM's blade width could be a bit more fine too. 4th M tends to bend over slightly, while RM growth is more upright. Evidence of tillering present in both.

That being said, performance in the actual lawn with higher threat of disease and drought could be much different. These containers have been kept in "ideal" conditions with ample watering. Also, it has only been a month - they could mature differently in the long run. In the latest final NTEP reports, I think 4th M received a 6.7 overall turfgrass quality, while RM received a 6.2. On SSS, price for 50 lb bag of 4th M is $234 including shipping, and RM is roughly $150.

This fall I'm going with a mono of one of these two types, but needless to say these results are making my decision quite difficult. Below are pics.

If anyone has experience with either of these fescues, your input is much appreciated!


1.5" HOC. LEFT: 4th Millennium, RIGHT: Rhizing Moon


1.5" HOC from above. LEFT: 4th Millennium, RIGHT: Rhizing Moon


4" HOC. LEFT: 4th Millennium, MID: Rhizing Moon, RIGHT: Blend


4" HOC from above. LEFT: 4th Millennium, MID: Rhizing Moon, RIGHT: Blend


----------



## uts

Those look dense and healthy! I am seriously thinking of an overseed so this is very valuable!


----------



## Aggrorider1

To me the rhizing moon looks great. Look at those roots you can see. What made the NTEP scores better for 4th millennium? I would have a hard time not going with rm based on what your showing and price.

Edit: Im not seeing the rhizing moon on SSS website


----------



## Ohio Lawn

I planted my lawn using SS1000 blend from SSS last fall. It contained 25% of 4th Millennium. So far its doing great and I definitely recommend it. I am doing an overseed this coming fall, and considered using 100% 4th millennium for the overseed because I liked it so much. I ended up buying more of the SS1000 because I wanted more of the blend. But you can't go wrong with 4th millennium in my opinion.


----------



## tim4w5

Hey I don't see Rhizing Moon on SSS, I was looking into 4th mill for overseeding later this fall. But I like the blend with them both from your pics. Do you have a link to the Rhizing moon?


----------



## TheEggMan

tim4w5 said:


> Hey I don't see Rhizing Moon on SSS, I was looking into 4th mill for overseeding later this fall. But I like the blend with them both from your pics. Do you have a link to the Rhizing moon?


Is SSS a seed seller? Link?


----------



## ScottieBones

TheEggMan said:


> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey I don't see Rhizing Moon on SSS, I was looking into 4th mill for overseeding later this fall. But I like the blend with them both from your pics. Do you have a link to the Rhizing moon?
> 
> 
> 
> Is SSS a seed seller? Link?
Click to expand...

 yes. Seed Super Store 
https://www.seedsuperstore.com/
Pricey, but supposed to be good quality


----------



## TheEggMan

ScottieBones said:


> yes. Seed Super Store
> https://www.seedsuperstore.com/
> Pricey, but supposed to be good quality


Thanks.


----------



## gatorguy

Interesting! I bought a 50lb bag of DLF Pickseed Rhizing Moon this spring. I intend to plant it in my backyard as I am doing a full reno and some other properties. I likewise did testpots except I planted them much earlier on when it was still nippy at night. I used what seed I had for other projects as well, so one pot of the Rhizing Moon, one pot of DLF Replicator 4N Tetrapaloid PRG, one pot pf Brett Young Coastal 4-way PRG, and a couple pots of an Evergro No-Mix. The results were really interesting. Definately the TTTF is hands down my favorite. It is super dense and stands straight up. It is the healthiest looking too. Others may have fungus or something. Especially the BY is very slimy, soft and if you stick your finger in it, it just falls out of the way. The TTTF is so thick you couldnt get your finger to dirt! Very aggressive growth, roots were down 4 inches in a matter of a month and a bit. Mine were in the sun, got watered once a day at first. They get cut every day except the TTTF every other day or so. Here is a pic if your interested. Each pot had the same amount of seed put in it at planting.

Brett Young PRG
DLF Replicator PRG
DLF Rhizing Moon TTTF
Evergro Nomix



And yes that is my nuked yard in the background.


----------



## 1028mountain

@gatorguy TTTF looks better than all of them in that first pic.


----------



## tim4w5

gatorguy said:


> Interesting! I bought a 50lb bag of DLF Pickseed Rhizing Moon this spring. I intend to plant it in my backyard as I am doing a full reno and some other properties. I likewise did testpots except I planted them much earlier on when it was still nippy at night. I used what seed I had for other projects as well, so one pot of the Rhizing Moon, one pot of DLF Replicator 4N Tetrapaloid PRG, one pot pf Brett Young Coastal 4-way PRG, and a couple pots of an Evergro No-Mix. The results were really interesting. Definately the TTTF is hands down my favorite. It is super dense and stands straight up. It is the healthiest looking too. Others may have fungus or something. Especially the BY is very slimy, soft and if you stick your finger in it, it just falls out of the way. The TTTF is so thick you couldnt get your finger to dirt! Very aggressive growth, roots were down 4 inches in a matter of a month and a bit. Mine were in the sun, got watered once a day at first. They get cut every day except the TTTF every other day or so. Here is a pic if your interested. Each pot had the same amount of seed put in it at planting.
> 
> Brett Young PRG
> DLF Replicator PRG
> DLF Rhizing Moon TTTF
> Evergro Nomix
> 
> 
> 
> And yes that is my nuked yard in the background.


That is amazing


----------



## bf7

Aggrorider1 said:


> To me the rhizing moon looks great. Look at those roots you can see. What made the NTEP scores better for 4th millennium? I would have a hard time not going with rm based on what your showing and price.
> 
> Edit: Im not seeing the rhizing moon on SSS website


Based on the professional opinion, 4th Millennium appears to be the more well rounded grass as it scores high in pretty much every category, and is the highest rated tall fescue overall. On the other hand Rhizing Moon scores higher than 4th M in certain categories but lower in others. Here's what I pulled from the NTEP reports (categories that were important to me, keep in mind these are the mean scores at all locations, 1 = lowest quality 9 = highest quality):

Genetic color
RM 7.1
4th M 6.8

Spring green up
RM 5.2
4th M 6.0

Leaf texture
RM 6.2
4th M 6.3

Spring density
RM 6.4
4th M 7.0

Summer density
RM 6.3
4th M 6.9

Fall density
RM 6.4
4th M 6.4

Winter color
RM 5.8
4th M 6.1

Leaf spot
RM 6.0
4th M 5.3

Red thread
RM 6.7
4th M 6.3

Brown patch
RM 6.2
4th M 7.0

Pink snow mold
RM 7.3
4th M 6.7

Early spring ground cover
RM 6.0
4th M 7.7

Overall quality
RM 6.2
4th M 6.7

I am honestly blown away by what I've seen from RM. However, I keep going back to the NTEP ratings, considering they are studying the cultivars for longer than 1 month, under more realistic lawn conditions and factoring in weather changes.


----------



## bf7

tim4w5 said:


> Hey I don't see Rhizing Moon on SSS, I was looking into 4th mill for overseeding later this fall. But I like the blend with them both from your pics. Do you have a link to the Rhizing moon?


Sorry for not clarifying - Rhizing Moon seed is available online through Hearne Seed, not SSS.

https://hearneseed.com/rhizing-moon-tall-fescue/

The 50 lb bag is $100 excluding shipping and cost $50 to ship to my house in PA.


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> Interesting! I bought a 50lb bag of DLF Pickseed Rhizing Moon this spring. I intend to plant it in my backyard as I am doing a full reno and some other properties. I likewise did testpots except I planted them much earlier on when it was still nippy at night. I used what seed I had for other projects as well, so one pot of the Rhizing Moon, one pot of DLF Replicator 4N Tetrapaloid PRG, one pot pf Brett Young Coastal 4-way PRG, and a couple pots of an Evergro No-Mix. The results were really interesting. Definately the TTTF is hands down my favorite. It is super dense and stands straight up. It is the healthiest looking too. Others may have fungus or something. Especially the BY is very slimy, soft and if you stick your finger in it, it just falls out of the way. The TTTF is so thick you couldnt get your finger to dirt! Very aggressive growth, roots were down 4 inches in a matter of a month and a bit. Mine were in the sun, got watered once a day at first. They get cut every day except the TTTF every other day or so. Here is a pic if your interested. Each pot had the same amount of seed put in it at planting.
> 
> Brett Young PRG
> DLF Replicator PRG
> DLF Rhizing Moon TTTF
> Evergro Nomix
> 
> 
> 
> And yes that is my nuked yard in the background.


Nice!! I'm glad someone else tried doing this outside. My pots were kept indoors by the window. So at least here is some evidence of the TTTF thriving in the elements.

The RM looks the darkest to me. And the disease in the other types, wow! You're totally right about the aggressive root growth - I wish I had used deeper pots to see how far they would go.

I also wish I had done this experiment with an elite bluegrass next to the fescues to see how the color compared. You can see how dark they look in front of my lawn outside in the background.

I would be very interested in seeing how your reno turns out with RM in case I don't end up using it. Are you going Rhizing Moon monostand?


----------



## bf7

Ohio Lawn said:


> I planted my lawn using SS1000 blend from SSS last fall. It contained 25% of 4th Millennium. So far its doing great and I definitely recommend it. I am doing an overseed this coming fall, and considered using 100% 4th millennium for the overseed because I liked it so much. I ended up buying more of the SS1000 because I wanted more of the blend. But you can't go wrong with 4th millennium in my opinion.


I checked out your journal - looks awesome! The pics on day 40 are incredible. That's what I'm going for. I've heard nothing but good things about 4th Millennium.


----------



## gatorguy

@bf7 Yep! Monostand RM TTTF.

Yeah wasnt long till the roots were coming out the bottom of the pots. Mine are getting cut probably around an inch or a bit more. (The height of the pots). The RM I believe had good results at a half inch cut? Seemed crazy to me. I'll have to look into it although I intend on keeping it tall as I have alot of traffic in the back with the dog and playing. Atleast 3" I was planning. Although it being cut at his height is amazing so far for feel. So stiff, I love it.

Planning a reno on the front with DLF Replicator cut reel low. I have planted BY PRG at some properties and its come out well.


----------



## tim4w5

bf7 said:


> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey I don't see Rhizing Moon on SSS, I was looking into 4th mill for overseeding later this fall. But I like the blend with them both from your pics. Do you have a link to the Rhizing moon?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for not clarifying - Rhizing Moon seed is available online through Hearne Seed, not SSS.
> 
> https://hearneseed.com/rhizing-moon-tall-fescue/
> 
> The 50 lb bag is $100 excluding shipping and cost $50 to ship to my house in PA.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much


----------



## ahur

You folks have sold me on these cultivars for my overseeding. Here is a pedestrian question - when I order these seeds online, are there any assurances for 0% weed/other crop seeds?

-edit grammar.


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> @bf7 Yep! Monostand RM TTTF.
> 
> Yeah wasnt long till the roots were coming out the bottom of the pots. Mine are getting cut probably around an inch or a bit more. (The height of the pots). The RM I believe had good results at a half inch cut? Seemed crazy to me. I'll have to look into it although I intend on keeping it tall as I have alot of traffic in the back with the dog and playing. Atleast 3" I was planning. Although it being cut at his height is amazing so far for feel. So stiff, I love it.
> 
> Planning a reno on the front with DLF Replicator cut reel low. I have planted BY PRG at some properties and its come out well.


Cool! From what I can see the RM looks good at any height. It appears to be very versatile. These new varieties of tall fescue with semi-dwarf characteristics will certainly be fun to mow and experiment with.


----------



## TheEggMan

Are the NTEP scores published for most varieties of grasses? Where do you find them?


----------



## Ohio Lawn

TheEggMan said:


> Are the NTEP scores published for most varieties of grasses? Where do you find them?


http://ntep.org/

http://ntep.org/previous.htm


----------



## tim4w5

ahur said:


> You folks have sold me on these cultivars for my overseeding. Here is a pedestrian question - when I order these seeds online, are there any assurances for 0% weed/other crop seeds?
> 
> -edit grammar.


Yes, if you go to Seed Super Store site you're able to see the Seed Analysis Label


----------



## TheEggMan

Ohio Lawn said:


> http://ntep.org/
> 
> http://ntep.org/previous.htm


Thanks.


----------



## bf7

ahur said:


> You folks have sold me on these cultivars for my overseeding. Here is a pedestrian question - when I order these seeds online, are there any assurances for 0% weed/other crop seeds?
> 
> -edit grammar.


For 4th M, SSS has a link to the analysis label - it is 0% weed and other crop.

For RM, the small sample of seed I bought did not come with an analysis label. However another member did tell me he bought 50 lbs last year and the tag specified 0% weed. I don't have assurances for the product on the website now. I will probably call Hearn Seed before I purchase a large quantity.


----------



## gatorguy

If your looking to buy RM just find your local DLF Pickseed dealer.


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> If your looking to buy RM just find your local DLF Pickseed dealer.


How do I find a local dealer? Should I call DLF Pickseed?

A couple of weeks ago I tried calling Turf Merchants to see if they could refer any distributors around me for 4th M seed. I wanted to see if I could get it without paying for shipping. They basically just referred me to SSS.


----------



## tim4w5

bf7 said:


> gatorguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your looking to buy RM just find your local DLF Pickseed dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> How do I find a local dealer? Should I call DLF Pickseed?
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I tried calling Turf Merchants to see if they could refer any distributors around me for 4th M seed. I wanted to see if I could get it without paying for shipping. They basically just referred me to SSS.
Click to expand...

Sss has free shipping right now


----------



## gatorguy

https://www.dlfpickseed.com/organics/distributors-dealers

They don't seem to have a list of who carries their seed for the US. Yeah I would call them and they could tell you who in PA carries their seed. Around here multiple places carry DLF, an Evergro distributor and a dedicated seed supplier.

You probably dont want to pay for shipping from California. Im sure there is someplace closer. https://hearneseed.com/rhizing-moon-tall-fescue/


----------



## bf7

tim4w5 said:


> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gatorguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> If your looking to buy RM just find your local DLF Pickseed dealer.
> 
> 
> 
> How do I find a local dealer? Should I call DLF Pickseed?
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I tried calling Turf Merchants to see if they could refer any distributors around me for 4th M seed. I wanted to see if I could get it without paying for shipping. They basically just referred me to SSS.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Sss has free shipping right now
Click to expand...

That's what they advertise but I think SSS buries the shipping cost in the price of the seed. That's why they are relatively expensive ($230+ for a 50lb bag)


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> https://www.dlfpickseed.com/organics/distributors-dealers
> 
> They don't seem to have a list of who carries their seed for the US. Yeah I would call them and they could tell you who in PA carries their seed. Around here multiple places carry DLF, an Evergro distributor and a dedicated seed supplier.
> 
> You probably dont want to pay for shipping from California. Im sure there is someplace closer. https://hearneseed.com/rhizing-moon-tall-fescue/


Good stuff. I'll try reaching out to DLF. Thanks.

Also didn't realize Hearne was all the way in CA.


----------



## ScottW

Anybody find it odd that the label images posted above show it was tested December of 2020, which is still 5 months away?


----------



## bf7

ScottW said:


> Anybody find it odd that the label images posted above show it was tested December of 2020, which is still 5 months away?


I think that my be a typo. It looks like most of the other TTTFs on their website were tested in late 2019 or early 2020. So they probably meant 12/19.


----------



## gatorguy

One thing that really sold me was the Shade tolerance rating. I want a monostand, but some corners dont get much more than 4 hrs of sun depending on the season, so we will see how this carries itself.


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> One thing that really sold me was the Shade tolerance rating. I want a monostand, but some corners dont get much more than 4 hrs of sun depending on the season, so we will see how this carries itself.


That and the good disease tolerance scores. From what I've read, that's one of the big risks with a mono.

What type of grass is in your profile pic with the striping? Looks great.


----------



## gatorguy

@bf7 That is one of the properties I mow commercially. It is a PRG/KBG at 4". Grubs got at it however last fall and despite Lorsban going down, the raccoons ruined it over winter when I wasnt actively managing it. So I will be doing RM there aswell.


----------



## bf7

So I gave the babies a cut - down to 3" for the taller pots and 1" for the shorter pots. The taller RM was so dense, I could barely get the scissors through it. Almost had to bring the Honda inside.


Left: 4th M; Right: RM



I also noticed what might be disease or drought stress in both grasses, but it's more prevalent in the 4th M.


4th M


RM


----------



## occamsrzr

Do these containers have any drainage holes? What soil did you use? Potting soil shouldn't have any major diseases. Soil from outside could have spores along with it. Could be over-watering. This is easy to do if the water has no place to go.


----------



## bf7

occamsrzr said:


> Do these containers have any drainage holes? What soil did you use? Potting soil shouldn't have any major diseases. Soil from outside could have spores along with it. Could be over-watering. This is easy to do if the water has no place to go.


Good point - there are no drainage holes, so probably over saturation of the soil with water. The soil I used was Kellogg All Natural Topper for Lawns.

Thinking about releasing these samples into the wild soon.


----------



## gatorguy

Overall, such nice stuff. Now if only it grows like that in the lawn..


----------



## tim4w5

bf7 said:


> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I find a local dealer? Should I call DLF Pickseed?
> 
> A couple of weeks ago I tried calling Turf Merchants to see if they could refer any distributors around me for 4th M seed. I wanted to see if I could get it without paying for shipping. They basically just referred me to SSS.
> 
> 
> 
> Sss has free shipping right now
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's what they advertise but I think SSS buries the shipping cost in the price of the seed. That's why they are relatively expensive ($230+ for a 50lb bag)
Click to expand...

Found this site United Seed Inc. Has 4th Millennium priced really good.

https://unitedseeds.com/product/4th-millennium-tall-fescue/


----------



## ArtOfWar626

Both look very impressive. I plan to add about 30% of 4th Millennium into my seeding combo this fall.


----------



## bf7

tim4w5 said:


> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sss has free shipping right now
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they advertise but I think SSS buries the shipping cost in the price of the seed. That's why they are relatively expensive ($230+ for a 50lb bag)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Found this site United Seed Inc. Has 4th Millennium priced really good.
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product/4th-millennium-tall-fescue/
Click to expand...

Wow, that is way cheaper. I wonder if it's 0% weed and other crop.


----------



## occamsrzr

bf7 said:


> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what they advertise but I think SSS buries the shipping cost in the price of the seed. That's why they are relatively expensive ($230+ for a 50lb bag)
> 
> 
> 
> Found this site United Seed Inc. Has 4th Millennium priced really good.
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product/4th-millennium-tall-fescue/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, that is way cheaper. I wonder if it's 0% weed and other crop.
Click to expand...

It is. I ordered a bit of this from United Seeds to pair with my *** mix. It's 0% weed and other crop. It's blue label instead of SSS's gold but worth it for the price.


----------



## bf7

Interesting. What's the difference between blue and gold label?


----------



## 1028mountain

bf7 said:


> Interesting. What's the difference between blue and gold label?


Ones blue and the others gold.


----------



## occamsrzr

bf7 said:


> Interesting. What's the difference between blue and gold label?


"the minimum purity for Blue tag certification is 95% and for Gold tag (Sod Quality) is 96 to 97%. The standards for weed and crop seed content are also more rigid for certification."

https://ag.umass.edu/turf/fact-sheets/understanding-turfgrass-seed-label

I don't think there is that much difference. The Gold tag is "sod quality". I'm OK with the Blue tag for the savings.


----------



## g-man

Blue means that they tested and it matches the grass type you are buying (mazama = mazama and not midknight).

Gold = sod quality = they grab a lot more seed to test. They are looking for a more reliable sample size to confirm weed content (eg. Poa A, Poa t) is very low. It is more expensive because you are paying for the testing, lots do fail (and become blue), the growers spend more money to grow it. I prefer to pay a few dollars more for less poa a, poa t seeds. It is a lot cheaper than have to use herbicides later on to get rid of them.


----------



## bf7

Good info, thanks. In my samples, the 4th M is gold tag, and the RM didn't come with a tag (I assume it's not gold because it is significantly cheaper). So far the RM looks better all around (color, density, disease resistance). However I probably didn't plant enough seeds in the samples to see the effect of weed seed infestation, as they would theoretically be an extremely low %. That raises my concern a bit for planting RM in the actual yard.


----------



## tim4w5

occamsrzr said:


> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tim4w5 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Found this site United Seed Inc. Has 4th Millennium priced really good.
> 
> https://unitedseeds.com/product/4th-millennium-tall-fescue/
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, that is way cheaper. I wonder if it's 0% weed and other crop.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is. I ordered a bit of this from United Seeds to pair with my *** mix. It's 0% weed and other crop. It's blue label instead of SSS's gold but worth it for the price.
Click to expand...

Yeah I called them asked those questions, so I ordered from here as well. Saving 💰


----------



## tam

I think you may have convinced me to add RM into my next project. I had actually been looking for something in the "4th millennium, but straighter" ballpark after using 4th millennium in a section of my yard last year. And RM is A-List-approved.


----------



## Cam3113

I'm in MN looking to overseed this fall with a Tttf... I was looking at Barenbrug turf saver rtf... But these look promising and can also regenerate growth... Anyone have any input on which you would choose? I have fescue and kbg blend


----------



## bf7

tam said:


> I think you may have convinced me to add RM into my next project. I had actually been looking for something in the "4th millennium, but straighter" ballpark after using 4th millennium in a section of my yard last year. And RM is A-List-approved.


This is definitely something I've noticed. The 4th M tends to bend over more. You can see the difference in these pics. This also shows the finer blades on the RM.


4th M


RM

Unrelated to your post, but I'm seeing maybe some other disease in the 4th M (dollar spot? Not sure). Still no sign of disease in the RM. Both pots are watered exactly the same.


----------



## zackroof

So both of these look and seem awesome. Any ideas from anyone on how they stack up against the Titan stuff? Titan RX or the Titan Blend? Looking primarily for heat and drought tolerance.

Thanks!


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

I'm following this thread closely. Last year we moved into a new home that we built. Last fall, our landscaper installed our lawn. He used Lesco Transition TTTF. After getting off to a slow start last fall it came in pretty good this spring. I'm doing everything I can to try and help it survive the summer heat.

Early this fall, I want to do an aeration and overseed. I'm really interested in these two TTTF since they have potential to spread and look great! Would one of these be better for East Tennessee than the other? Thanks!


----------



## bf7

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> I'm following this thread closely. Last year we moved into a new home that we built. Last fall, our landscaper installed our lawn. He used Lesco Transition TTTF. After getting off to a slow start last fall it came in pretty good this spring. I'm doing everything I can to try and help it survive the summer heat.
> 
> Early this fall, I want to do an aeration and overseed. I'm really interested in these two TTTF since they have potential to spread and look great! Would one of these be better for East Tennessee than the other? Thanks!


I think they would both do extremely well in your area. For overall turfgrass quality in Knoxville TN, NTEP gave 4th M a 7.8 / 9 and RM a 7.7 / 9. I would browse through the full report (link below) for the categories important to you under the TN testing location.

http://www.ntep.org/reports/tf12/tf12_18-13f/tf12_18-13f.htm


----------



## bf7

By the way, I found this pic showing select mature TTTF cultivars side by side with some KBG. I am not sure where these were grown, so take it with a grain of salt. Rhizing Moon is not shown here, but 4th Millennium is the fourth one. Regenerate is the third, and it looks much darker than the 4th M to me. Rhizing Moon has a better mean genetic color score (7.1) than Regenerate (6.9), which is a higher score than 4th M (6.8). So RM should look even darker than this Regenerate at maturity. Of course this all depends on environmental factors and lawn care practices.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

Thanks @bf7! I really appreciate the reply and links. I will check them out. Would these two do well as a 50/50 mix? I appreciate it.


----------



## bf7

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> Thanks @bf7! I really appreciate the reply and links. I will check them out. Would these two do well as a 50/50 mix? I appreciate it.


No problem! I did a blend pot along with the straights, it looks great. It's the pot on the far right. There are also some pics in my original post. I imagine the blend would be more disease resistant than either alone. I want a monostand for the uniformity, but if you would prefer the blend then go for it.


----------



## PatchOfWeeds

Hi All, first time posting here. I was looking to purchase Rhizing Moon and Hearne says it's sold out. Does anyone else know who sells it? For my fall overseed(for now) is 50% RM and 50% 4th mill, I may add another fescue. Originally I was going to use SnapBack from United Seed but they stopped selling the mix because of issues. 
Thank You


----------



## bf7

PatchOfWeeds said:


> Hi All, first time posting here. I was looking to purchase Rhizing Moon and Hearne says it's sold out. Does anyone else know who sells it? For my fall overseed(for now) is 50% RM and 50% 4th mill, I may add another fescue. Originally I was going to use SnapBack from United Seed but they stopped selling the mix because of issues.
> Thank You


Hearne is sold out. I called DLF Pickseed and they said they would ship the seed to a distributor in my area.


----------



## PatchOfWeeds

Thank You bf7!


----------



## gatorguy

bf7 said:


> PatchOfWeeds said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All, first time posting here. I was looking to purchase Rhizing Moon and Hearne says it's sold out. Does anyone else know who sells it? For my fall overseed(for now) is 50% RM and 50% 4th mill, I may add another fescue. Originally I was going to use SnapBack from United Seed but they stopped selling the mix because of issues.
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> Hearne is sold out. I called DLF Pickseed and they said they would ship the seed to a distributor in my area.
Click to expand...

Did you get pricing?


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PatchOfWeeds said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi All, first time posting here. I was looking to purchase Rhizing Moon and Hearne says it's sold out. Does anyone else know who sells it? For my fall overseed(for now) is 50% RM and 50% 4th mill, I may add another fescue. Originally I was going to use SnapBack from United Seed but they stopped selling the mix because of issues.
> Thank You
> 
> 
> 
> Hearne is sold out. I called DLF Pickseed and they said they would ship the seed to a distributor in my area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Did you get pricing?
Click to expand...

Not yet. Curious about that too but I want to make final decision on seed first. Looking at some KBG options as well.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

I'm ready to order both of these now, so I'm not scrambling to find them later this summer. Any suggestions on where I can purchase both of these? Thanks!


----------



## tam

Glen_Cove_5511 said:


> I'm ready to order both of these now, so I'm not scrambling to find them later this summer. Any suggestions on where I can purchase both of these? Thanks!


There are a few options for 4th Millennium: Preferred Seed, United Seed, and Seed Superstore usually have it. The only place I've found RM online is sold out; I'm planning to contact DLF to find out if anyone in my area distributes it.


----------



## Carlson

Ah man! I've had RM in my backyard mix for a year now and it is amazing seed. I'm bummed Hearne is out for now, especially with my planned reno this fall.

Called DLF today and they indicated SSS had ordered some, but when I called SSS they said they were unaware of an order.

@bf7 if a lawn forumer from New England was willing to pay for seed and shipping, any chance you'd be up for grabbing a 50lb bag and sending Northward? 😀


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

I need 25 lbs. of each. Really hoping to find both for a 50/50 blend.


----------



## bf7

You guys might think I'm nuts but I actually did a 180 and bought all KBG seed to blend for my reno. Although, the Rhizing Moon impressed me enough where I wanted to include something from DLF Pickseed, so I got their Blue Velvet KBG. My blend is going to be 33% Prosperity, 33% Moonlight SLT, and 33% Blue Velvet. These are supposedly some of the "bluest" KBG cultivars which can give the lawn a blue hue. I'm upset I didn't get to test any of these, but I was so awe-struck by some pics that I came across, I had to get them.

My advice for RM - call Hogan. Blue Velvet was listed on his website, but when I called today he said he didn't have it in stock. He didn't even know it was on their website. Anyway, he immediately reached out to DLF Pickseed to see if they would ship directly to my house. 1 hour later - done deal. He had the total price (shipped) - all I had to do was give him my address / payment info. I would bet that he could do this for you guys with Rhizing Moon. Let me know if it works!


----------



## Carlson

Just called Hogan right after reading this - he's going to call up DLF for me.

I also talked to Hearne earlier today - they anticipate restocking on RM within the next month.


----------



## Carlson

Bam! Those Hogan guys are good!

$170 for a 50# bag of RM shipped to my house in MA!


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> Just called Hogan right after reading this - he's going to call up DLF for me.
> 
> I also talked to Hearne earlier today - they anticipate restocking on RM within the next month.


Nice!! Last week Hearne told me they weren't getting any more this year. Maybe they've been getting so much extra demand from people seeing this thread, they had to reconsider :lol:


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> Bam! Those Hogan guys are good!
> 
> $170 for a 50# bag of RM shipped to my house in MA!


Sweet!!!


----------



## Carlson

@bf7 I should have ordered a bag from Hearne as soon as you asked about RM in that thread a few months back hahaha. I think I was the only one who responded then.

But the density of my backyard turf is no joke. RM is some really good fescue.

I should also note that I talked to SSS today and leaned on Mary about getting RM in stock too.


----------



## Carlson

Close-up of my backyard blend
25% each Rhizing Moon, Regenerate, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS.

D E N S E


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> @bf7 I should have ordered a bag from Hearne as soon as you asked about RM in that thread a few months back hahaha. I think I was the only one who responded then.
> 
> But the density of my backyard turf is no joke. RM is some really good fescue.
> 
> I should also note that I talked to SSS today and leaned on Mary about getting RM in stock too.


Haha right! When Hearne told me they were sold out, the thought kept creeping in my mind that we had something to do with it lol. Starting an RM revolution here, and I'm not even sowing it! Hope I don't regret my KBG decision, not only because it's a longer reno.

Now if SSS starts carrying it and selling for $250 a bag, that will be something.

We need more pics of your established RM, btw.


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> Close-up of my backyard blend
> 25% each Rhizing Moon, Regenerate, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS.
> 
> D E N S E


Spoke too soon, looks awesome!


----------



## gatorguy

@bf7 Ah man! I was looking forward to see someone else do a RM full reno aswell as me but goodluck, Ill be watching. Tempted to try a KBG monostand out here despite people saying it doesn't like it - low cut kbg looks amazing.

And @Carlson that is some nice turf! How many years since planting?


----------



## Carlson

gatorguy said:


> @bf7 Ah man! I was looking forward to see someone else do a RM full reno aswell as me but goodluck, Ill be watching. Tempted to try a KBG monostand out here despite people saying it doesn't like it - low cut kbg looks amazing.
> 
> And @Carlson that is some nice turf! How many years since planting?


I seeded back there last fall. I have been astonished at the turf density. Doing a full reno out front with the same mix this fall.


----------



## bf7

gatorguy said:


> @bf7 Ah man! I was looking forward to see someone else do a RM full reno aswell as me but goodluck, Ill be watching. Tempted to try a KBG monostand out here despite people saying it doesn't like it - low cut kbg looks amazing.


Ahhh sorry about that. I will definitely be watching for your updates / pics. I'm so curious what the RM mono will look like.

And make no mistake, if I ever go back to fescue, it will undoubtedly be RM.


----------



## Carlson

Unless they have Rhizing Sun or something by then?

Keep in mind Rhizing Star preceeded Rhizing Moon. If they keep development heading in the same direction, the next version will be outstanding.


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> Unless they have Rhizing Sun or something by then?


LOL from a marketing perspective, I wouldn't do it. Moon gives me that feeling of "darkness". One of my KBG cultivars even has the word Moonlight in it - they must know how to draw me in. But I'll get whatever DLF calls it.


----------



## Carlson

Rhizing Black Hole


----------



## bf7

Sold! I'll take 200 lbs!


----------



## gatorguy

@Carlson Wow! That is great. Density looks awesome. Love it.

@bf7 Sure thing, I will probably start a journal when I plant in late July.


----------



## Carlson

I'll catalog my reno in my journal too, it just won't be a monostand


----------



## gatorguy

Carlson said:


> I'll catalog my reno in my journal too, it just won't be a monostand


Sounds good, I subbed to your journal


----------



## Carlson

After re-reading the first page of this thread, I have half a mind to do four windowsill pots of the four varieties I'm planting for a laugh. Might help me identify which is which in the lawn afterwards.


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> After re-reading the first page of this thread, I have half a mind to do four windowsill pots of the four varieties I'm planting for a laugh. Might help me identify which is which in the lawn afterwards.


Remind me again, you are reno-ing the front yard right? Are you going with the same 4 way blend you did last year?

As long as you keep the RM and Regenerate, you have my approval. Regenerate looks like top quality stuff. Although I shied away from testing it due to the low red thread ratings. I've had too many red thread problems before to risk it.


----------



## Carlson

@bf7 Yep - that's the plan.

Regenerate, RM, Titanium, and Valkyrie. First three are all A-Listers, and the latter three are all Rhizomatous & shade tolerant. Makes for a great mix in my yard in the woods.

I actually just bought a billy goat vetticutter / seeder too... Thinking I'll do one pass with each type of seed, rotating by 45° for each seed type.

I'm psyched for it. I'm gonna do my first round of Gly next week.


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> @bf7 Yep - that's the plan.
> 
> Regenerate, RM, Titanium, and Valkyrie. First three are all A-Listers, and the latter three are all Rhizomatous & shade tolerant. Makes for a great mix in my yard in the woods.
> 
> I actually just bought a billy goat vetticutter / seeder too... Thinking I'll do one pass with each type of seed, rotating by 45° for each seed type.
> 
> I'm psyched for it. I'm gonna do my first round of Gly next week.


Nice. I put down the gly last Monday. Things are nice and crispy. Planning on second coating this evening.

I've been going back and forth about how to get best seed to soil contact. Have you used a slit seeder before? That is what I'm thinking of doing at this point - maybe a couple passes before seed down and then another after. But not sure if it would be better to just drop seed and roll it. I'm adding 1/4 - 1/2 inches top soil about a month before seed down to help level things out, not sure if that makes a difference with regard to the "seed to soil contact" method.


----------



## Carlson

The machine I bought is a slit seeder - that's definitely the easiest way to get good s2s contact.

I haven't used one before though - I've always done the following:
1) rough up the soil with an iron rake or dethatcher (the cheap greenworks one works great)
2) top-dress with composted loam
3) apply seeds with rotary spreader
4) go over all of the soil with the back of a big plastic leaf rake to get seed just worked in
5) (optional) roll it in with a roller
Slice seeder basically does steps 1-4 in one pass.

I'm really looking forward to using and having the machine. Doing the manual seeding method, I end up with some spots washing around when the inevitable post-seeding downpouts come - I think the slice seeder will reduce the extent of that happening.


----------



## Pologuy

Carlson said:


> Close-up of my backyard blend
> 25% each Rhizing Moon, Regenerate, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS.
> 
> D E N S E


What state?


----------



## Carlson

Pologuy said:


> Carlson said:
> 
> 
> 
> Close-up of my backyard blend
> 25% each Rhizing Moon, Regenerate, Titanium LS, and Valkyrie LS.
> 
> D E N S E
> 
> 
> 
> What state?
Click to expand...

Massachusetts


----------



## Pologuy

Looks great I'm in CT.


----------



## Carlson

My bag arrived today.





99.98% pure seed, 90% germination, tested this month. Nice!


----------



## bf7

Sweet! What took so long? I got my Blue Velvet over a week ago.

Mine was tested this month too. Couldn't believe it.


----------



## Carlson

I'm guessing DLF tries to do their shipments in weekly batches & that I missed the batch yours went out in by a day.

Still - no seed going down outside for a few more weeks yet so all good!


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

I'll be getting my Rhizing Moon from Hogan, where can I get 4th Millennium? Thanks


----------



## bf7

There are a few options online. Seed SuperStore has sod quality. I believe Preferred Seed and United Seeds also carry it.


----------



## Glen_Cove_5511

Appreciate it @bf7!


----------



## gatorguy

Beautiful sight - grass seed bags!


----------



## bf7

Update: In case anyone is interested in the drought tolerance of these, see below pics. Since I made my seed decision, I have been giving the samples zero attention (including no water) for the past month+. Both are not looking too good, but I think Rhizing Moon is retaining its color better than 4th Millennium.


----------



## gatorguy

Thanks for the update! I'm impressed!


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

It's crazy, it looks like fine fescue
Under heat stress!


----------



## tam

FWIW, Hearne told me about three weeks ago that they expected to have more Rhizing Moon available "in about two weeks." I've been checking their site every day for the past week and their site show it back in stock yet. But they might?


----------



## bf7

@tam did you try Hogan? They were able to arrange a shipment of KBG seed from DLF directly to my house. You'll still pay retail because Hogan is making the sale happen but it should work assuming DLF hasn't run out. @Carlson got his Rhizing Moon this way.


----------



## Captquin

Subscribed


----------



## Carlson

I've been keeping mine at 1.5" in the back in prep for an overseed I'm doing tomorrow. For a tall fescue RM does very well cut short-ish.


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> I've been keeping mine at 1.5" in the back in prep for an overseed I'm doing tomorrow. For a tall fescue RM does very well cut short-ish.


Any sections with RM monostand? 

My seed day is also tomorrow. You will probably have mowed yours 5 times by the time my KBG gets out of sprout and pout.


----------



## Carlson

No monostand areas I'm afraid.

The area I attempted to seed in the spring was pretty pouty for tttf. I think it will be a bit more vigorous in an early fall planting.

Back yard overseed tomorrow - front yard full seeding I'm giving another week or so. I want to fallow the new soil one more time because I *really* don't like poa triv haha


----------



## bf7

Haha nice. I've been fallowing for almost a month and barely any weeds came up. I even debated whether doing a final roundup was worth the time. Either I lucked out with my topsoil or I didn't water enough. Most likely the latter...good luck with your seeding!


----------



## uts

bf7 said:


> Update: In case anyone is interested in the drought tolerance of these, see below pics. Since I made my seed decision, I have been giving the samples zero attention (including no water) for the past month+. Both are not looking too good, but I think Rhizing Moon is retaining its color better than 4th Millennium.


Any follow-up to recovery?


----------



## bf7

I haven't given either any water, but here are they are as of today. RM still looks greener to me.


----------



## Carlson

You should start watering them again soon to see which one recovers faster!


----------



## bf7

Carlson said:


> You should start watering them again soon to see which one recovers faster!


Alright haha I'll give them a shower now. Stay tuned...


----------



## uts

bf7 said:


> Carlson said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should start watering them again soon to see which one recovers faster!
> 
> 
> 
> Alright haha I'll give them a shower now. Stay tuned...
Click to expand...

Nice. I ordered a bag of 4th mellinium and a bag of rhizing moon after seeing your tests. Will blend them myself with titanium LS 2 and a shade tolerant KBG and use that. Thank you for these experiments.


----------



## uts

bf7 said:


> I haven't given either any water, but here are they are as of today. RM still looks greener to me.


RM is def greener. Btw this just crossed my head that growing in a container where the soil cant drain may make even small watering differences very significant especially in drought conditions. That said I like RM quite a bit which explains why it is sold out at so many places.


----------



## bf7

@uts no problem, glad I could help with your seed choice. I'm sure you'll be happy but good luck.

Definitely need to take these tests with a grain of salt since they are so different from real life. I kept these pots indoors at a constant temp. But the RM really impressed me. So much that I needed to include a DLF cultivar in my KBG blend.


----------



## uts

Looking forward to the water challenge.


----------



## vnephologist

Just running across this thread. I renovated with 4th in 2018. Will dig up some pics if anyone is interested. I ended up overseeding with Raptor 3 last Fall. I highly recommend it as well. I've maintained both at 2" HOC in lower transition zone. Just wanted to note that another great source for those in the northeast is Newsom Seed in MD. You'll have to call, but they are reasonable at $100/50lb plus UPS ground ship with no markup. Just ordered another bag of 4th and Titanium 2 from them last week. Planning to overseed 4th M, Raptor 3, and Titanium 2 into my Barserati KBG in a few weeks.


----------



## Captquin

@vnephologist how do you like the Barserati?


----------



## vnephologist

Captquin said:


> @vnephologist how do you like the Barserati?


Well, I'd say it's true to form. It's persistent and has remained resistant to fungal pressure. I couldn't seem to keep enough water and N on it during the drought this summer so color faded and some even went dormant. It's rebounded extremely well during the last few weeks' rain onslaught, but I'm just tired of my neighbors crappy fescue being darker, thus my overseed. I have Jacklin's new After Midnight on order, but it probably won't arrive in time to seed this year. My plan is to see how the TTTF overseed looks this coming year and then start over with After Midnight next Fall. I will say, my small plot of 4th M and Raptor is completely different than what I expected. Blades have remained small and it's been Brown Patch free. It also saw some drought dormancy, but I think it may have seen result of my lower HOC. That was probably more info than you wanted.


----------



## bf7

@vnephologist Barserati mixed with these fescues will be an absolute bulletproof stand of turf.


----------



## Captquin

@vnephologist No, that's exactly what I was looking for. If the HGT/SPF-30 I'm seeding now doesn't work for me next summer, I plan to add some RM/4th TTTF


----------



## vnephologist

Captquin said:


> @vnephologist No, that's exactly what I was looking for. If the HGT/SPF-30 I'm seeding now doesn't work for me next summer, I plan to add some RM/4th TTTF


If you haven't seeded the SPF-30 yet, I'd avoid it. It was actually the first ever KBG cultivar I tried when I switched from fescue several years ago and it sounds good on paper, but it looked horrible and performed no better than good KBG cultivars. Your HGT will already be light in color, so if it were me, I'd add Mazama, or good ol' Midnight.


----------



## Captquin

Too late, seeded today. :/ I follow the SPF-30 thread on the warm season board. Looks pretty good. To your point, not sure it will actually perform better but should add some genetic diversity. Main thing I leaned about the HGT is that it's thirsty. We shall see.


----------



## bf7

Update on the drought tolerance faceoff...

So I gave the samples a nice big drink of water over the course of a few days, and the results are interesting.

It looks like both of them basically just died (at the very least, they look worse than before). Not sure what happened exactly - if it was too much moisture in the containers for them to absorb or something. I'll keep an eye on them to see if this is some kind of extreme dormancy kick that they just need to wake up from. By the looks of it, I doubt they are coming back to life. It also appears they could be dealing with some fungus from the large amount of water in the small container, with nowhere for it to drain really. If I could do it over again, I would water only a little bit at a time. I thought I could simulate a real thirsty lawn situation where a big rain comes through and greens everything up. My bad...


----------



## badtlc

Are you going to give them some hot sun and regular light watering for a while? I bet they come back.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

bf7 said:


> Update on the drought tolerance faceoff...
> 
> So I gave the samples a nice big drink of water over the course of a few days, and the results are interesting.
> 
> It looks like both of them basically just died (at the very least, they look worse than before). Not sure what happened exactly - if it was too much moisture in the containers for them to absorb or something. I'll keep an eye on them to see if this is some kind of extreme dormancy kick that they just need to wake up from. By the looks of it, I doubt they are coming back to life. It also appears they could be dealing with some fungus from the large amount of water in the small container, with nowhere for it to drain really. If I could do it over again, I would water only a little bit at a time. I thought I could simulate a real thirsty lawn situation where a big rain comes through and greens everything up. My bad...


Is that PB developing in the last 2 pics?


----------



## Carlson

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> bf7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Update on the drought tolerance faceoff...
> 
> So I gave the samples a nice big drink of water over the course of a few days, and the results are interesting.
> 
> It looks like both of them basically just died (at the very least, they look worse than before). Not sure what happened exactly - if it was too much moisture in the containers for them to absorb or something. I'll keep an eye on them to see if this is some kind of extreme dormancy kick that they just need to wake up from. By the looks of it, I doubt they are coming back to life. It also appears they could be dealing with some fungus from the large amount of water in the small container, with nowhere for it to drain really. If I could do it over again, I would water only a little bit at a time. I thought I could simulate a real thirsty lawn situation where a big rain comes through and greens everything up. My bad...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that PB developing in the last 2 pics?
Click to expand...

What's the right dosage for PPZ to cover 0.25sq ft? Haha


----------



## bf7

@Carlson haha if anyone has an extra extra small syringe, I'll give it a shot!

@badtlc they do sit in the sun for good portion of the day. Right now the containers are at the capacity with water. I haven't watered in 2 days. I guess I could dump the water out and try to "spoon feed" water.

@Scagfreedom48z+ my thought was pythium too. It was actually there in some earlier pics within this thread, but not this bad


----------



## badtlc

bf7 said:


> @badtlc they do sit in the sun for good portion of the day. Right now the containers are at the capacity with water. I haven't watered in 2 days. I guess I could dump the water out and try to "spoon feed" water.


You may benefit a bit from direct outdoor sunshine. There is more UV and other spectrum available outside that might help kill of fungus or provide increased benefits.


----------



## occamsrzr

You might also wanna give those a trim. None of those needled leaves are going to come back. If the roots survived, they might throw out new shoots.


----------



## tam

@bf7 Thanks; I did not call Hogan because I assumed I'd have to get a 50 lb bag and I only plan to need half that this year.

I decided to check with Hearne one last time and they do have it back in stock now (you guys go ahead; I already got my order in).


----------



## bf7

tam said:


> @bf7 Thanks; I did not call Hogan because I assumed I'd have to get a 50 lb bag and I only plan to need half that this year.
> 
> I decided to check with Hearne one last time and they do have it back in stock now (you guys go ahead; I already got my order in).


Nice, I think Hearne ordered more after we drove the demand up :thumbup:


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

vnephologist said:


> Just running across this thread. I renovated with 4th in 2018. Will dig up some pics if anyone is interested. I ended up overseeding with Raptor 3 last Fall. I highly recommend it as well. I've maintained both at 2" HOC in lower transition zone. Just wanted to note that another great source for those in the northeast is Newsom Seed in MD. You'll have to call, but they are reasonable at $100/50lb plus UPS ground ship with no markup. Just ordered another bag of 4th and Titanium 2 from them last week. Planning to overseed 4th M, Raptor 3, and Titanium 2 into my Barserati KBG in a few weeks.


How did your overseed go with the newsom tttf seed?


----------



## creediddy2021

Wow beautiful turf!


----------

