# "Safe" alternative to glyphosate?



## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Hey guys, I want to kill my weed laden 3000 sqft lawn and replace it with Mazama KBG in Spring. I did this on my adjacent 800 sqft lawn this fall. I used glyphosate to do that small lawn, and got hell from my wife and father in law (both doctors). I myself am a doctor, a Hematologist/Oncologist no less, so I must admit I feel terrible about having used Glyphosate and promised my wife and myself I wouldn't do it again. However, now I need to figure out exactly how I am going to do it. Does anybody have any good ideas?

Thanks!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Use proper PPE and it will be fine. If there is any risk (which I dont want to get in that debate), the use of proper PPE (mask, gloves, rubber boots, etc) will limit any exposure.

Some have tried solatization, but the results are not as great as glyphosate.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

I actually do suspect you are right, and I suspect there is likely a "safe way" to use glyphosate, but I promised my family and myself. If for no other reason, then out of respect for my lymphoma patients who may have developed lymphoma due to frequent RoundUp use after being assured it was safe. At the end of the day, I can't use it again, as much as I want to. It may just be that I need to continuously reseed with Mazama until it takes over the lawn. Solarization doesn't seem promising over the winter hehe. Dang. Might just be stuck here.


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## Amoo316 (Jul 8, 2021)

you could try some high strength Vinegar. It'll be expensive, but it's an option that may work.

It's kind of one of those deals where all of these lawn products have the potential to cause health issues, not just Glypho. It's just the one that got the press partly due to their advertising and lobbying for all those years. At the end of the day, I would say follow the science and the science says most yard products can cause long term injury. Choosing not to use roundup, then turning around and spraying weeds when they do come up with some other chemical is kind of???


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Majahops said:


> Hey guys, I want to kill my weed laden 3000 sqft lawn and replace it with Mazama KBG in Spring. I did this on my adjacent 800 sqft lawn this fall. I used glyphosate to do that small lawn, and got hell from my wife and father in law (both doctors). I myself am a doctor, a Hematologist/Oncologist no less, so I must admit I feel terrible about having used Glyphosate and promised my wife and myself I wouldn't do it again. However, now I need to figure out exactly how I am going to do it. Does anybody have any good ideas?
> 
> Thanks!


I guess just let it go all natural.. seems that would be the best case to avoid anything for sure.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Majahops said:


> Hey guys, I want to kill my weed laden 3000 sqft lawn and replace it with Mazama KBG in Spring. I did this on my adjacent 800 sqft lawn this fall. I used glyphosate to do that small lawn, and got hell from my wife and father in law (both doctors). I myself am a doctor, a Hematologist/Oncologist no less, so I must admit I feel terrible about having used Glyphosate and promised my wife and myself I wouldn't do it again. However, now I need to figure out exactly how I am going to do it. Does anybody have any good ideas?
> 
> Thanks!


I am with you on avoiding glyphosate. After all, we really don't yet know all of the health implications. Furthermore, if we aren't poisoning ourselves, we are poisoning many beneficial insects, birds and everything up the food chain.

Concentrated vinegar works - sort of. It works by desiccating the plant foliage. You need to apply it in warm sunny areas for it to work. It also works on some weeds like plantain but not others like crabgrass. It is also very expensive to use other than spot treating.

The other thing you can do as buy some local bulk compost. Scalp the existing lawn to the bare lowest you can go. Spread the compost at least at a 3 inch depth over the area, then seed. This will kill any annual weeds, but some perennials like dandilions will grow right through, so it's not perfect. However, I am gradually winning battles with crabgrass using this method.

Being it is Oct. 4, it is a bit late to do any of this. I would wait until next year and start late August/early Sept. Otherwise, a hard frost could kill all your grass seedlings.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

What about an obscene amount of weed and feed? It seems like I kill my grass with just overlap of normal doses, what if I drop like 5x the recommended dose? I understand I'm being a total hypocrite, but I don't want no drama with my baby mama, and she's ok with weed and feed (for now).


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Majahops said:


> What about an obscene amount of weed and feed? It seems like I kill my grass with just overlap of normal doses, what if I drop like 5x the recommended dose? I understand I'm being a total hypocrite, but I don't want no drama with my baby mama, and she's ok with weed and feed (for now).


The label is the law. I don't think you're going to find anyone on this forum who would recommend going off label with a selective herbicide as an alternative to applying a non-selective herbicide at label rate.

I agree with @g-man - use proper PPE and some common sense, or even hire it out. Otherwise learn to live with what you have. :thumbup:


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Very fair. Thank you all so much.



Ware said:


> Majahops said:
> 
> 
> > What about an obscene amount of weed and feed? It seems like I kill my grass with just overlap of normal doses, what if I drop like 5x the recommended dose? I understand I'm being a total hypocrite, but I don't want no drama with my baby mama, and she's ok with weed and feed (for now).
> ...


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## San (Jun 21, 2021)

With regards to solarization, as you're basically out of time this year, alternative can be covering it with plastic sheets next season and let the heat take care of things. No herbicides needed.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Majahops said:


> What about an obscene amount of weed and feed? It seems like I kill my grass with just overlap of normal doses, what if I drop like 5x the recommended dose? I understand I'm being a total hypocrite, but I don't want no drama with my baby mama, and she's ok with weed and feed (for now).


Keep in mind it is a violation of Federal law to apply any of these products in a manner inconsistent with their labelling.

From a toxicity point if view, you are vastly better off spreading glyphosate as per label than spreading Weed & Feed at 5x the label - a very, very big no-no. You do know that 2-4D is the active ingredient in Weed & Feed which is the same active ingredient in the herbicides that were used in Vietnam to kill the ground cover and that gave many GI's cancer and their children birth defects.


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## Thejarrod (Aug 5, 2018)

I'm also comfortable using Gly because i use reasonable PPE, i dont get it on my skin, and i use it only once or twice a year (spot spraying).

NC state published this on the extension website and it addresses alternatives to Gly . 
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/are-there-alternatives-to-glyphosate-for-weed-control-in-landscapes

i wont quote the whole thing here, but they discuss pros and cons of several alternatives. the most fun option is clearly the "hot foam" machine!

here is the headline on alternative chemicals:

"Postemergence herbicide alternatives

Several other non-selective herbicides are available for use in landscape plantings. These include: Diquat (Reward™), pelargonic acid (Scythe™), glufosinate (Finale™ and others), and many "natural products" such as vinegar and botanical oils. All of these products have contact-type activity. That means they do not translocate to the roots of treated plants. If applied at the labeled dose and with thorough spray coverage, each of these herbicides will control seedling annual broadleaf weeds. None of these products have residual activity (i.e.: no root uptake and no preemergence weed control) in soils."


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

Majahops said:


> ...You do know that 2-4D is the active ingredient in Weed & Feed which is the same active ingredient in the herbicides that were used in Vietnam...


2,4-D is not Agent Orange if that is what you are trying to imply.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Allan-00 said:


> Majahops said:
> 
> 
> > ...You do know that 2-4D is the active ingredient in Weed & Feed which is the same active ingredient in the herbicides that were used in Vietnam...
> ...


No, that's not what I said. 2, 4-D is the active ingredient in Agent Orange.


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

Deadlawn said:


> Allan-00 said:
> 
> 
> > Majahops said:
> ...


FWIW I agree completely that using herbicides at anything other than the label rate is irresponsible and dangerous. However, I don't agree with bringing up chemical warfare in order to reinforce this. We should try to be precise with our words. Below are more facts from the EPA.

_"2,4-D is not Agent Orange. Agent Orange was a mixture of two different herbicides: 2,4,5-T and 2,4-D (as well as kerosene and diesel fuel). 2,4,5-T contained high levels of dioxin, a contaminant, found to cause cancer and other health problems in people. Dioxins are no longer found at detectable levels in 2,4-D products sold and used in the United States. Furthermore, EPA has canceled all uses of 2,4,5-T in 1985 and no longer allow its use in the United States."_


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Yeah we need to reel this discussion back in a bit. The topic is alternatives to the non-selective herbicide glyphosate, and we all agree that applying a selective herbicide (or anything for that matter) at excessive off-label rates in an attempt to accomplish similar results is reckless. Let's move on.


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## AllisonN (Jul 4, 2020)

Hire someone to do it for you.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

You are not going to find a 100% safe chemical. I wouldn't bet any of the options discussed above being safer than Glyphosate. Horticultural vinegar, though organic, is very caustic and blanket spraying is asking for some sort of eye or inhalational injury.

My non-chemical recommendation would be solarization if you want to kill everything. Short of that you are stuck hand pulling or living with them.

Don't discount the importance of how you manage the lawn. Keeping a lawn healthy and dense will do a lot to choke out weeds. Zoysia is very good at crowding out weeds if you can tolerate the winter brown.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Definitely appreciate all the input. I may need to dress up in a moon suit a day the kids are out with my wife, spray Glyphosate, and just deny everything. I'll need to use a ton so I don't have to make a second pass.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

bernstem said:


> You are not going to find a 100% safe chemical. I wouldn't bet any of the options discussed above being safer than Glyphosate. Horticultural vinegar, though organic, is very caustic and blanket spraying is asking for some sort of eye or inhalational injury.


Vinegar is acidic, not caustic.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > You are not going to find a 100% safe chemical. I wouldn't bet any of the options discussed above being safer than Glyphosate. Horticultural vinegar, though organic, is very caustic and blanket spraying is asking for some sort of eye or inhalational injury.
> ...


I'm pretty sure he was just using it as an adjective to describe its ability to burn or corrode by chemical action. There is no need to be 'that guy' - you have your fair share of technical inaccuracies in this thread.


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

Majahops said:


> Definitely appreciate all the input. I may need to dress up in a moon suit a day the kids are out with my wife, spray Glyphosate, and just deny everything. I'll need to use a ton so I don't have to make a second pass.


Regular app twice is likely better than a heavy app once. Advantage is you dont need to cover the whole lawn the second time.

Aren't you late to be killing things in PA this time of year, though?


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

stevehollx said:


> Majahops said:
> 
> 
> > Definitely appreciate all the input. I may need to dress up in a moon suit a day the kids are out with my wife, spray Glyphosate, and just deny everything. I'll need to use a ton so I don't have to make a second pass.
> ...


Would I be better waiting until spring? I'm just not down to wait until Fall is all.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Majahops,

Interesting predicament. Personally, I have done a lot of spot sprays for Poa T with glyphosate, mostly in the last two years. Once I found out about N95 respirator masks (and they then became available again after the worst of the pandemic eased here in the US), I almost always use one when spraying anything. I may even look into a full face version at some point. I have only ever done two full lawn renovations, in which I used it over a large area.

That said, it sounds like your reason for promising your family members is more of a respect/product boycotting situation. We really don't know what's going to happen...if it will someday be deemed unsafe, or continue to be deemed safe yet taken off the market eventually anyway. To me, though, there has to be a replacement that is just as effective and has a similar pathway of action (e.g. something that trans-locates, rather than just being a contact herbicide) and is without a doubt fully safe. I suspect the chemical companies in ag and turf are trying to identify such a compound as we speak, but I have no idea for sure.

So, here is where we are...

You basically have several options to research...

-Glufosinate (a contact herbicide. And it likely won't put toxicity questions to bed, either!)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glufosinate

And your main current category/option while we wait for something better to come out are:

-Fatty acid nonselective herbicides (also contact herbicides; have the added bonus of killing moss, which glyphosate does not, however these are more expensive, and since they are contact only, may need 5-6+ applications over a wider time-frame to get the same level of kill as 2-4 glyphosate applications over a more compact time-frame--me speculating)

Examples are:

-Ammonium Nonanoate (currently marketed by Scotts as: "Ortho Groundclear Weed & Grass Killer 2")
-"Finalsan" (an ammoniated soap of fatty acids; OMRI registered)
-"Bonide Botanical Kleenup" (same as "Burnout II"; Caprylic acid 44%, Capric acid 36% combination)
......................................................................................................................

As far as selective herbicides go, Tenacity (Mesotrione, which is an HPPD inhibitor) is very safe, and is something that interferes with Tyrosine pathways, and was synthesized from a compound found in the Bottlebrush plant. It does kill arthropods, but that's about it. See link: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982216306649
That said, it is prone to resistance development in plant populations, and almost always requires 2-3 applications to kill target plants. My opinion: It's overused. I'm probably as guilty of this as anyone, but I'm trying not to use it as often anymore.


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## Wiley (Dec 2, 2019)

I don't know if this would be a solution or not but I wonder if you were able to spray some sort of predator urine in full concentration to kill the lawn? May take multiple heavy apps and will definitely smell but maybe it's worth a shot. I know there are places where you can buy coyote, mtn lion or bear urine by the gallon. Think of it as creating one huge dog spot.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Wiley said:


> I don't know if this would be a solution or not but I wonder if you were able to spray some sort of predator urine in full concentration to kill the lawn? May take multiple heavy apps and will definitely smell but maybe it's worth a shot. I know there are places where you can buy coyote, mtn lion or bear urine by the gallon. Think of it as creating one huge dog spot.


This wins most creative idea. In truth if I were going to go this route I'd just do my middle of the night piss on the lawn.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

It's amazing to me that you'd take out so much time to help share thoughts and guide a complete stranger. I try to do the same on medical user forums/guides, but admittedly not as in depth or organized as you, let alone for people who are as clueless as I clearly am here. I really am so very thankful for the time you've taken out here.



Green said:


> @Majahops,
> 
> Interesting predicament. Personally, I have done a lot of spot sprays for Poa T with glyphosate, mostly in the last two years. Once I found out about N95 respirator masks (and they then became available again after the worst of the pandemic eased here in the US), I almost always use one when spraying anything. I may even look into a full face version at some point. I have only ever done two full lawn renovations, in which I used it over a large area.
> 
> ...


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Ware said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > bernstem said:
> ...


Well I stand corrected on the multiple definitions of caustic.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Majahops, you're welcome. Those soap/fat-based nonselective herbicide products I listed are all fairly new chemistries. They've hit the market as a reaction to people looking for glyphosate alternatives, or natural alternatives. I think there are some citric acid products, too. But there is no direct replacement for glyphosate yet.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Green said:


> @Majahops,
> 
> Interesting predicament. Personally, I have done a lot of spot sprays for Poa T with glyphosate, mostly in the last two years. Once I found out about N95 respirator masks (and they then became available again after the worst of the pandemic eased here in the US), I almost always use one when spraying anything. I may even look into a full face version at some point. I have only ever done two full lawn renovations, in which I used it over a large area.


You should look into P100 masks and chemical respirator masks. Many filters are both P100 and a chemical vapor filter. N95s work by trapping particles. For preventing spread of respiratory diseases they are highly effective since viruses and bacteria are inside respiratory droplets, but anything in a gaseous form will pass through them. While an N95 is better than nothing, it may not be as effective as you think for inhaled chemicals. A quick check of respirator effectiveness would be if you can smell the chemical (for those with an odor). If you can smell it, then it is passing through the mask. That isn't 100%, but it is pretty good.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

bernstem said:


> You should look into P100 masks and chemical respirator masks.


Yeah, I was thinking about this yesterday. I think trying disposable P95 or even (P100 as you suggested) respirator masks is going to be my next step. The longer you wear an N95, the more damp it gets, and the more chance of vaporized particles getting through--which my experience backs up (and they were never intended to block liquids, anyway)...so, I agree that P-rated masks should be significantly better.

I have gotten a very faint chemical smell/taste from my NIS after extended spray sessions with the N95 (which was not fit-tested, but is good enough), but it's insignificant compared to if I hadn't used the mask. And in fact, I used to spray with nothing or a dust mask, which wasn't the greatest idea. Actually, the fact that I was getting a smell/taste a couple of years ago when spraying glyphosate, and posted about here, was what got me started with N95s. It was pretty unnerving, so someone here suggested I try them. I bought a 3-pack at the time, used one for a while, and then threw it out and started a second. But then the pandemic hit full-force and supply dried up, so I really only used it when spraying potentially hazardous chemicals. Actually, I stopped using them for lawn use entirely for a while and kept it as an emergency mask option for the pandemic, as I only had two. It wasn't until this year, after supply became available again, that I started using them for essentially all my spraying.

I also now wear safety glasses when spraying as well...and occasionally, Uvex lab-grade goggles from my chemistry lab course days.

Btw, it's amazing how much spray can aerosolize (or even dust if you're sweeping). Ever sprayed or swept at night with a headlamp on? And those are just the visible particles that you can see in front of your face. It's also amazing how long they can hang there, and even follow you as you move with the air.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Very cool story and points. I'm actually thinking I'm just going to hire someone to spray the glyphosate, ideally while we are away on vacation. I'll make sure they know how to don appropriate PPE and I'll provide it to them if their company is too shady to supply them with it.

Interestingly, since around the time I sprayed the glyphosate, coffee and urine have both smelled fishy. Its not subtle. There's not much of a urine or coffee scent to them at all anymore… I don't know that fishy is the best possible description - I can't put my finger on the scent exactly. It's been over a month now. I kinda figured I had otherwise asymptomatic COVID. Prolly still is the case, but the timing is curious now that you mention it. Anyway thank you for taking the time!


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Majahops said:


> Very cool story and points. I'm actually thinking I'm just going to hire someone to spray the glyphosate, ideally while we are away on vacation. I'll make sure they know how to don appropriate PPE and I'll provide it to them if their company is too shady to supply them with it.


Better to have them provide their own PPE. Providing it for them makes you liable if they don't use it properly. Most importantly, make sure they are fully insured with proof. That way you are covered.


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## Majahops (Sep 26, 2021)

Deadlawn said:


> Majahops said:
> 
> 
> > Very cool story and points. I'm actually thinking I'm just going to hire someone to spray the glyphosate, ideally while we are away on vacation. I'll make sure they know how to don appropriate PPE and I'll provide it to them if their company is too shady to supply them with it.
> ...


Damn excellent point


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Majahops said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Majahops said:
> ...


+1. And having (and actually using if provided by the owner of the company) PPE is also a measure of how reputable the company is (or at least how conscientious the employee is). Problem is, we live in a world where some don't believe in precautions like seat belts, PPE, etc. Just another thing that tells me to choose wisely who I would hire to do something.

The only thing that might complicate it is that there are many formulations of glyphosate...some are quick acting because they include diquat dibromide. And even then, the pure 41% glyphosate versions that most here prefer to use can be mixed in so many different ways as well...distilled water versus hard water (do they check the pH?), how about adding in amonium sulfate? What type of surfactant do they use, and how much? And finally, even though it translocates, it might have to be applied 3x over an extended period of time to kill certain plants. And even when there is a complete kill, there is still the possibility of "fallowing" an area and killing what pops up again to reduce weed pressure in the final lawn or ornamental garden. So, if someone is on board with that, it's another mark of a true professional (and they should be...they'll get paid to come back multiple times, after all).


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Majahops said:


> Interestingly, since around the time I sprayed the glyphosate, coffee and urine have both smelled fishy. Its not subtle. There's not much of a urine or coffee scent to them at all anymore… I don't know that fishy is the best possible description - I can't put my finger on the scent exactly. It's been over a month now. I kinda figured I had otherwise asymptomatic COVID. Prolly still is the case, but the timing is curious now that you mention it. Anyway thank you for taking the time!


Interesting, and hopefully it either subsides slowly soon, or you get to the bottom of the cause.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Deadlawn said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > You are not going to find a 100% safe chemical. I wouldn't bet any of the options discussed above being safer than Glyphosate. Horticultural vinegar, though organic, is very caustic and blanket spraying is asking for some sort of eye or inhalational injury.
> ...


Those are not mutually exclusive terms.


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