# Nuke and Start Over- Help (Bermuda)



## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Hello Friends,

I've been lurking and reading here for a month but it's time to officially join because I need help. New home purchase this year and I inherited a neglected mix of 50% weeds, 25% common bermuda, 25% KY31 quality fescue (see photos from early Oct. below) Previous owner had aerated and overseeded Fescue every year which always failed due to full sun and no irrigation I assume.

My goal is to convert to a respectable Bermuda lawn with HOC no lower than 1.75 inches due to uneven surface and mower type. It's almost an acre of actual grass so a walk behind reel mower is not in the cards for me. I soil tested and have corrected the low pH with Solucal lime. Soil is low phosphorus which I will address with starter fertilizer in the spring.

My current plan is to kill everything with glyophosate in March (2 applications a week apart) and rent a slit seeder and plant a seed mix like Jubilee (Riviera and Transcontinental) and some Blackjack at a rate of about 2 lb/1000sf at 1/8" to 1/4" depth. This will be an early/dormant seeding which I read works well according to the University of Arkansas in the transition zone.

I know the Crabgrass will be horrendous here, it's a huge problem I have carcasses all over in large areas of lawn. I figure that treating with quinclorac a couple weeks after emergence is the only thing I can do. Plan is to fertilize 1/2 lb N every two weeks basically all summer to fill it in and spot treat weeds.

I do not have irrigation but plan to use portable irrigation sprinklers to cover as much area as I can with my well pump. Luckily we get a lot of rain in NC so that will also help.

Will this work or do I have some flaws in my renovation plan? Please advise, any and all recommendations are appreciated.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

If I were in the same situation I would work with what you currently have(common Bermuda). Start with a proper weed control and fertilization program. Given enough sunlight, water, and nitrogen I'd expect the lawn to completely fill in by the end of the growing season. It's going to be much easier to get rid of the weeds and Fescue, then successfully growing Bermuda from seed.

The major flaw is see above is applying glyphosate in march on dormant/ semi dormant Bermuda is not going to provide a complete kill. If fact it will more than likely only delay green up. It takes a concoction of multiple herbicides and multiple applications to even think about eliminating the common Bermuda. The Bermuda needs to actively growing for them to work.


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## rhanna (Jun 7, 2017)

I think I agree with high leverage. I did your plan on 8000 sq ft and it was difficult to keep that much irrigated without an irrigation system. 
If you truly plan on cutting at 1.75 I definitely would stay with common Bermuda. Grab some prodiamine for the crabgrass control in the spring, maybe buy some celsius to kill weeds and the fescue and buy some plant growth regulator to slow the growth and make the common bermuda look better.

Actually you might want to hold off on the PGR if you need the common to fill in.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Evaluate whether you want to stick with the common or not. If not, two glyphosate apps, any time of year isn't going to do the job, especially that time of year.

There are variety of chemical options that can help with the kill, such as triclopyr, pylex, fluazifop, tenacity, and sethoxydim.

You could spray MSMA as well for the crab.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Ok, let me clarify. I know that I won't kill the common bermuda present - only the existing fescue and green weeds. I don't mind some common but would like an improved variety to take over most of the lawn. The two apps may injure it but that doesn't seem like a bad thing if trying to get new seed established.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@high leverage I'm not a Bermuda man (due to shade) but I know it's not cheap and @cglarsen didn't mention anything about the cost of working almost an acre of turf. If cost is a factor and he decides to keep the Common Bermuda couldn't he do multiple low dose applications of glyphosate now to kill off everything but the Common Bermuda. I'm suggesting the low dose because you said that it could effect the green up in the spring. When spring comes he can then follow his plan and throw down Common Seed to help the current 25% spread to 100%.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Grass Clippins said:


> @high leverage I'm not a Bermuda man (due to shade) but I know it's not cheap and @cglarsen didn't mention anything about the cost of working almost an acre of turf. If cost is a factor and he decides to keep the Common Bermuda couldn't he do multiple low dose applications of glyphosate now to kill off everything but the Common Bermuda. I'm suggesting the low dose because you said that it could effect the green up in the spring. When spring comes he can then follow his plan and throw down Common Seed to help the current 25% spread to 100%.


I'm not sure what your definition of "low dose" means. Using less than what the manufacture recommends can contribute to herbicide resistance. But If and when I apply 41% glyphosate durning winter (January, February) I use 32 oz. per acre on normal lawns. If it's a new customer with a salad bar and hardened weeds I will occasionally jump to 44 oz. per acre. Also If possible apply on a day when temps are at least in the 60's. The warmer the better.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> Ok, let me clarify. I know that I won't kill the common bermuda present - only the existing fescue and green weeds. I don't mind some common but would like an improved variety to take over most of the lawn. The two apps may injure it but that doesn't seem like a bad thing if trying to get new seed established.


I'm not here to talk you out of your plan only to provide some real world observations. Things look great on paper but reality and nature have their own rules. Without trying to truly eliminate the common(very difficult) when you are watering and fertilizing the seeded variety you'll only be encouraging the common to spread and out compete the seedlings. In the end you'll have far more common Bermuda than the improved variety.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@high leverage By "low dose" I was referring to the lowest dose recommended by the manufacture. Would that still effect green up of Bermuda in the spring? I didn't know using less could create resistance, that's good to know.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

high leverage said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > Ok, let me clarify. I know that I won't kill the common bermuda present - only the existing fescue and green weeds. I don't mind some common but would like an improved variety to take over most of the lawn. The two apps may injure it but that doesn't seem like a bad thing if trying to get new seed established.
> ...


Point taken and that is what my original plan was a month ago. But if I apply pre-emerg (dithiopyr) to control the crabgrass this late winter/early spring, will the common still fill in by end of year? Some people say it will cause club-footing/root pruning of the bermuda. The crabgrass is out of control and after mowing it for half a summer I said, never again. I'd rather have bare dirt than that thick nasty plant.

I had been cutting around 3-3.5 inches in August/Sept. thinking I had mostly Fescue (wrong). If I bring it down to 1.5-2 inches will the common thicken up? It is very leggy and sparse even where I finished with HOC around 2.5" for the year.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> high leverage said:
> 
> 
> > cglarsen said:
> ...


I would argue that weed pressure (crabgrass, goosegrass, doveweed, etc...) has a far more negative effect than any side effects from pre-emergents.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I'd want to control weed pressure with a pre-em if I was growing in via vegetative propagation. Prodiamine is any option, but there are others; cough oxadiazon cough. If you're seeding, your pre-em option is basically quinclorac, yes, I said quinclorac, right when you seed.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> I'd want to control weed pressure with a pre-em if I was growing in via vegetative propagation. Prodiamine is any option, but there are others; cough oxadiazon cough. If you're seeding, your pre-em option is basically quinclorac, yes, I said quinclorac, right when you seed.





Movingshrub said:


> I'd want to control weed pressure with a pre-em if I was growing in via vegetative propagation. Prodiamine is any option, but there are others; cough oxadiazon cough. If you're seeding, your pre-em option is basically quinclorac, yes, I said quinclorac, right when you seed.


I can get Ronstar if I go the push common crawl route. But that's not my first choice unless necessary.

So a quinchlorac app during seeding after 2x round up will help control early weeds without suppressing my seed germination?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

For full disclosure, I haven't done it personally. However, I was REALLY considering it a test area I sprigged this year of 300 sqft. I wasn't going to use oxadiazon for that small of an area. I was considering simazine and quinclorac. Fortunately, my weed pressure was extremely low, which I think was due to multiple aps of glyphosate, fusilade, triclopyr, and tenacity. I believe tenacity likely did heavy lifting for anything that attempted to germinate.

Concerning quinclorac, the label notes it can be used.
http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld8LD011.pdf table 4

I know hybrid bermuda are more sensitive to quinclorac.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Not sure if it's been asked yet but with all this talk of spraying stuff, what equipment do you have to spray stuff with? Spraying an acre with a backpack sprayer is not going to be a good idea 

If all you want is a green and thick lawn with minimal weeds, I would just stay with the bermuda you have and try to get the weeds under control. As long as the bermuda is getting at least 1lb/N a month per 1 sq/ft and getting sufficient water, you will be surprised at how fast it can fill in and choke out some of the weeds too. Mowing at least twice a week will also help it fill in faster and thicken up too.


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

We all know he meant 1 lb N per 1000 sq ft. Didn't want you go broke buying urea. :thumbup:


Mightyquinn said:


> As long as the bermuda is getting at least 1lb/N a month per 1 sq/ft and getting sufficient water...


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> Not sure if it's been asked yet but with all this talk of spraying stuff, what equipment do you have to spray stuff with? Spraying an acre with a backpack sprayer is not going to be a good idea
> 
> If all you want is a green and thick lawn with minimal weeds, I would just stay with the bermuda you have and try to get the weeds under control. As long as the bermuda is getting at least 1lb/N a month per 1 sq/ft and getting sufficient water, you will be surprised at how fast it can fill in and choke out some of the weeds too. Mowing at least twice a week will also help it fill in faster and thicken up too.


Ok, another clarification on my part. I plan to do this in two phases: the front yard this year (20k SF) and the back yard next (17k SF). I own a good pump backpack sprayer for spot treatments but the large application will be done with hose end sprayer.

Read the Drive XLR8 label and that's interesting it can be used before, during, and immediately after seeding common bermuda.

Well what I have just doesn't look good to me. Can anyone point me toward a member's lawn that does look good with common Bermuda?


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

If you are going to be mowing around 2"+, I personally don't see the reason to invest in a higher grade of seed/sod as you will not really reap any of the benefits. How do you know you have common bermuda? How old is the house?

I would not recommend using a hose end sprayer with professional grade weed killers as you may end up doing more harm than good. Most of the hose end sprayers that I have used/seen aren't really that accurate in their dilution. They are great for other things that don't require accurate dosing like weed killers and weed preventers. Depending on how open your lawn is you could possibly get a pull behind sprayer or maybe even a mower mounted one but it looks like you have a stand on mower so I'm not too sure what your options would be with that mower.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

I can mow down to 1.5 inches without issue and I like to mow so that's not a real concern for me.

Would it be a better plan to order a pallet of sod and plug like a madman? I think one pallet gives about 20,000 plugs with the proplugger. 1 plug per SF seems sufficient. Scares me to think about doing it but I would if it was a more surefire method.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@cglarsen

This might be helpful.


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## Bermuda_Newbie (Jun 15, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> I can mow down to 1.5 inches without issue and I like to mow so that's not a real concern for me.
> 
> Would it be a better plan to order a pallet of sod and plug like a madman? I think one pallet gives about 20,000 plugs with the proplugger. 1 plug per SF seems sufficient. Scares me to think about doing it but I would if it was a more surefire method.


Last summer I bought about 80 sq ft of sod to plug about 1000 sq ft +/- in my front yard with a pro plugger. It was so much work and it had a hard time fighting the existing grass (fescue). It's possible it would have eventually taken over but you are talking about a long time to wait and a ton of work. I ended up resodding the whole thing 3 months later.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> @cglarsen
> 
> This might be helpful.


Yes I've watched that video and was impressed. So much I went to a local municipality and worked out a deal for a literal ton of Milo equivalent furnace dried biosolid pellets - my cost $50. I'm going to put it down at 50 lb/1000 sf every year regardless of this renovation or not.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Bermuda_Newbie said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > I can mow down to 1.5 inches without issue and I like to mow so that's not a real concern for me.
> ...


UGHH, now I'm starting to get depressed. I was afraid that would be the case.


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## Bermuda_Newbie (Jun 15, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> Bermuda_Newbie said:
> 
> 
> > cglarsen said:
> ...


You can definitely try it but it's a lot of work. If you do it, bury the pieces of sod with sand level with the current grass over the top. That ways it's mostly level when it starts to pop through. Either way, you're going to have trouble with your common Bermuda unless you get rid of it completely before you start. Good luck with everything. If you have any questions about what I did, feel free to ask or check out my lawn journal.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> If you are going to be mowing around 2"+, I personally don't see the reason to invest in a higher grade of seed/sod as you will not really reap any of the benefits. How do you know you have common bermuda? How old is the house?


House is 10 years old. Grass was always an afterthought based on photos from previous owner. It was never sodded.

And this is my absolute best stand of bermuda. Looks like common to me. Height is about 2.25" Found a green plant next to the sidewalk.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I can't help myself. If you can find a way to keep it from trying out. Sprig it; way cheaper than sod and way less work than plugs or sod.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I still think you should keep what you have and try to revive the bermuda already there and see how this year goes and then reevaluate again after this season. You may be surprised at what you get. You may already have a nice lawn in there with some TLC and plus you will learn what works and doesn't for you since you are fairly new to lawn care.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

.....and with the money you save you could put in irrigation.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Mightyquinn said:


> I still think you should keep what you have and try to revive the bermuda already there and see how this year goes and then reevaluate again after this season. You may be surprised at what you get. You may already have a nice lawn in there with some TLC and plus you will learn what works and doesn't for you since you are fairly new to lawn care.


+1


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> I still think you should keep what you have and try to revive the bermuda already there and see how this year goes and then reevaluate again after this season. You may be surprised at what you get. You may already have a nice lawn in there with some TLC and plus you will learn what works and doesn't for you since you are fairly new to lawn care.


Ok I will abandon ship and go back to working with what I have. Re-evaluate next year. Let's say I'm not happy with the turf quality but the common has taken over much of the yard. What would be my options then?


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> .....and with the money you save you could put in irrigation.


Whoa, now let's not get crazy. I'm on a 550 ft well that only yields 2 gpm.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > I still think you should keep what you have and try to revive the bermuda already there and see how this year goes and then reevaluate again after this season. You may be surprised at what you get. You may already have a nice lawn in there with some TLC and plus you will learn what works and doesn't for you since you are fairly new to lawn care.
> ...


You would have to deal with it regardless whether you went a different route or not. At least this way you will know for sure and as a plus it's best to try and kill bermuda at the end of the growing season when it's going to sleep and will take the chemicals deeper into the roots and rhizomes. Plus you will learn a lot this year by knowing what it takes to care for bermuda and will be able to make a more educated decision moving forward :thumbup:


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> ...I'm on a 550 ft well that only yields 2 gpm.


I would say that rules out a major renovation. You would have to gamble on getting rain at the right times.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Well this is becoming an easier decision fast....

At least my wife will be happy I'm not obsessing about the yard as much. PGR likely in my future.

For Pre-emergent this spring, does it matter the type? I like Dimension for cost, shorter acting, and safety. Ronstar could put on the front but not the backyard due to dogs back there (probable carcinogen). Prodiamine seems like a longer acting pre-em similar to dithiopyr.

Thoughts with regards to controlling heavy weed pressure while still allowing bermuda to crawl?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Prodiamine is hard to beat due to the low cost/length of control. Here is a 5lb jug for about $55, which works out to about $0.6875/oz. The max application rate for bermuda is 0.83oz per thousand per year, so your annual pre-e cost would be about $0.57 per thousand. Some here divide it up into more applications, but I spray it twice a year at half the annual max and do not get any significant weed pressure.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Ware said:


> Prodiamine is hard to beat due to the low cost/length of control. Here is a 5lb jug for about $55, which works out to about $0.6875/oz. The max application rate for bermuda is 0.83oz per thousand per year, so your annual pre-e cost would be about $0.57 per thousand. Some here divide it up into more applications, but I spray it twice a year at half the annual max and do not get any significant weed pressure.


Thanks for that. Cost is always a factor for me. Any risk of it inhibit rooting and/or slow down the rate of bermuda fill-in/coverage?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Only reason to use Ronstar in my opinion is if you are sprigging. Otherwise, prodiamine.


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## rhanna (Jun 7, 2017)

Try to search for something like rotary mowed Bermuda. I think that's the topic. I think there are some common Bermuda lawns in that thread that look damn good. Try to figure out what those guys do and replicate. 
I think some people go with dithiopyr and prodiamine. Going with dithiopyr closer to when you really think the crabgrass is germinating. It has some post emergent control on young weeds.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@rhanna Thank you, I found a great post on it!


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Here's a couple pics of my common bermuda mowed at 3" - 3.5" with an Exmark 48". I did a complete a complete renovation on my 2+ acres back in '08. I feed it 32-0-8 at 3 lbs/k June, July & August.
These photos show a pretty decent lawn but the reality is that it's a constant battle even doing all the right things.
I'm no expert but having been through a complete renovation I would follow the advise here of those that recommend allowing the common Bermuda to take over. If you feed it and get the pre-emergent down on schedule you'll probably wind up with a nice lawn without the headache and expense of a complete renovation.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@SWB I'm sure it was a constant battle establishing it, but is it also a constant battle maintaining it? Your yard looks amazing by the way.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Grass Clippins said:


> @SWB I'm sure it was a constant battle establishing it, but is it also a constant battle maintaining it? Your yard looks amazing by the way.


The first couple of years I battled most of the common weeds like crabgrass, sedge, etc. A few years ago I realized my lawn was being slowly taken over by Nimblewill. It didn't seem to make any difference what I did to eradicate it it would come back. I ended up spraying it with gly and letting the bermuda fill back in. I literally had hundreds of patches of this stuff growing out there. It can be difficult to spot completely during the growing season so I wait until the bermuda goes into dormancy in the fall and the nimblewill is still green. I flag the spots and spray them in March/April before the bermuda comes out of dormancy. I probably have 2 dozen flags in the lawn right now.

I spent considerable money on a Prow Mow gang reel mower system in attempt to mow at a lower height. That was a complete waste of time & money.

Even though I sprayed the old bermuda at the renovation after several years the original bermuda started to come back. All common bermuda does not look alike and the old bermuda has a different texture and growth height than the bermuda I seeded. So when I'm mowing at 3+ inches I have areas full of seed heads that the mower blades don't touch because its so low.

Heres a couple pics of nimblewill and my lawn after I sprayed in the spring a couple years ago.


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## Grass Clippins (Apr 30, 2018)

@SWB I see. Well all that work is paying off because your yard look gorgeous in full bloom. :thumbup:


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@SWB Great lawn, thanks for the photos and hope.

I was looking at those Pro Mow gang reels too. Are they junk? I do not like the cut on a lot of my yard with the 48" rotary there's just too much undulation and slope in areas it produces too many visible cut lines. Probably should have bought the Exmark Radius for $5000 on sale instead of this Bradley for $4000.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> I was looking at those Pro Mow gang reels too. Are they junk?


Here is a thread where they are mentioned.


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## 95mmrenegade (Jul 31, 2017)

I have used Princess 77 from Hancock farms and the Grass is about as easy as it gets. We used a tripod sprinkler with a rotary rainbird 4" popup with a 7gpm nozzle and watered every other or 3rd day and looks like it had a 100% take rate. Neighbor saw it and tried it on his yard under a tree and had the same results. If I did it
Kill everything
Rototill 3" down
Drag mat the whole thing
Drop 8# of princess 77
1/4" layer of soil3
Water lightly


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Ware said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> > I was looking at those Pro Mow gang reels too. Are they junk?
> ...


@Ware :thumbup: :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Unsure how well princess 77 does with cold climate. Riveria might be a better contender. I am not buying the cold weather claim on Yukon.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@high leverage @rhanna @Movingshrub @Mightyquinn @Ware @SWB

So I've decided to work with the existing Bermuda I've got. * Should I still nuke the weeds and fescue with Roundup prior to laying down pre-emergent for the crabgrass this year?* The goal being to help jumpstart bermuda takeover. It's been a warm winter so the bermuda may not be fully dormant. Should I apply a selective herbicide later towards the growing season.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I would spray anything that is green with a selective herbicide and stay away from Round Up all together. Once the season is here in full force, the Bermuda will start choking out most of the weeds on its own.

What weed killer do you have on hand or are thinking of buying?


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Mightyquinn said:


> What weed killer do you have on hand or are thinking of buying?


Nothing on hand other than glyophosate but I have access to the specialty herbicides like Celsius although that is pricey. What do you recommend? Would a Trimec product work? I have Agri-Supply store in town and they carry a bunch of their products.


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## rhanna (Jun 7, 2017)

I'm probably in the minority with this advice, since I'm not nearly as experienced with weed control as others on this forum. I've only begun to get serious about my lawn in the last few years.

I wouldn't worry about it too much right now. I doubt anything is just going to kill all the non-bermuda stuff right now given how cold it is (could be wrong). I think you should plan your attack when the temperatures start rising or when the winter weeds start to really take over your lawn. I'd just purchase a product at lowes or home depot, hose-end weed killer just to knock back your general weeds. Purchase Celsius and maybe Quinclorac(This ingredient is in a lot of your big box store products) with Celsius more for your higher temperature day applications.
I had success killing my small amount of fescue with Celsius, that and the hot summer and low mowing.

Others may be able to chime in but the thing I would worry about is, what are the effects on green-up and spread of the bermuda with the products you put down. I think some labels will recommend not spraying on bermuda coming out of dormancy.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> @high leverage @rhanna @Movingshrub @Mightyquinn @Ware @SWB
> 
> So I've decided to work with the existing Bermuda I've got. * Should I still nuke the weeds and fescue with Roundup prior to laying down pre-emergent for the crabgrass this year?* The goal being to help jumpstart bermuda takeover. It's been a warm winter so the bermuda may not be fully dormant. Should I apply a selective herbicide later towards the growing season.


Wait and see what the temps are in the next 3-4 weeks. My vote, from a price angle, is either a blanket application of glyphosate when it's super cold, or do a broadcast app of simazine (to go after grassy weeds and doesn't hurt root establishment) and your pre-em in february. I'd want to start going after any weeds that are going to be still hanging around when you hit spring green-up; the objective being to reduce weed competition. You might be looking at a three-way herbicide broadcast as well. I'm not opposed to MQ's approach either; there's a lot of ways to skin this cat.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> @high leverage @rhanna @Movingshrub @Mightyquinn @Ware @SWB
> 
> So I've decided to work with the existing Bermuda I've got. * Should I still nuke the weeds and fescue with Roundup prior to laying down pre-emergent for the crabgrass this year?* The goal being to help jumpstart bermuda takeover. It's been a warm winter so the bermuda may not be fully dormant. Should I apply a selective herbicide later towards the growing season.


I'm looking at it from a commercial applicator stand point. You have almost an acre of turf and the fact K31 is actually pretty tough to kill.

Blanket spraying glyphosate is a common practice for most Bermuda based golf courses and just about every commercial applicator in my state. The key here is "blanket spray". I am not a fan of spot spraying glyphosate.

I made a mistake on my personal lawn by spot spraying Italian rye grass with glyphosate in March four years ago. As my lawn came out of dormancy the areas that had been spot sprayed failed to green up at the same rate as the rest of the lawn. My two mistakes were: 1. spot spraying and 2. I applied glyphosate too late, the grass had already started its transition from dormancy.

I would estimate you have roughly and 8 week window from today to blanket the glyphosate. I would personally use 44 oz per acre as opposed the normal 32oz per acre due to the presence of K31. I would also tank mix your pre-emergent with the glyphosate and apply both at the same time. I see no reason to wait to apply pre-m. Apply both now and follow up with another round of pre-m, tank mixed with three-way in April. That should provide you a good barrier throughout the growing season.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

I will do a blanket app of gly late February that will take care of anything in my lawn that is green.

The first week in March and the first week of May I will put down 19-0-6 Dimension @ 3.8 lbs/k.

Anything that pops up after my Bermuda comes out of dormancy I will spot spray with a selective herbicide.

June, July & August I will put down 32-0-8 @ 3.1 lbs/k.

June thru September I'll mow every 2-3 days.

You said your soil was good so other than a thorough aeration I would think your Bermuda would fill in any gaps in a very short period.

I think you might be surprised.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

SWB said:


> I will do a blanket app of gly late February that will take care of anything in my lawn that is green.
> 
> The first week in March and the first week of May I will put down 19-0-6 Dimension @ 3.8 lbs/k.
> 
> ...


While your plan looks solid. Applying any nitrogen like the 19-0-6 with Dimension durning dormancy is a waste. I realize you are using it for its pre-m content. However I feel there are more appropriate products available for that period of time.

I personal don't use granular pre-emergents or combo fert/ pre-m products due to their high cost and poor distribution. 
Once you step in to the liquid realm your lawn and your wallet will thank you.


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

high leverage said:


> SWB said:
> 
> 
> > I will do a blanket app of gly late February that will take care of anything in my lawn that is green.
> ...


I was given this schedule by the fine folks at my local Site One (used to be JD / Lesco) over 10 years ago when I renovated my 2 acres with common Bermuda.

The only time I ever had an issue is when I missed (because of work) my pre apps one year and I paid dearly for that.

Past that, I use it like clockwork and my lawn looks ok.

Do you think I should ask the Site One guys for something different?


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

SWB said:


> I was given this schedule by the fine folks at my local Site One (used to be JD / Lesco) over 10 years ago when I renovated my 2 acres with common Bermuda.
> 
> The only time I ever had an issue is when I missed (because of work) my pre apps one year and I paid dearly for that.
> 
> ...


I have seen the Site One/JDL plans posted from time to time. I think that while they probably work fine, they are ultimately designed to sell more Site One/JDL products. For instance, just out of curiosity, what is your annual pre-emergent cost for the 2 acres?

For comparison, here is some Prodiamine 65 WDG math I posted earlier in this thread:



Ware said:


> Prodiamine is hard to beat due to the low cost/length of control. Here is a 5lb jug for about $55, which works out to about $0.6875/oz. The max application rate for bermuda is 0.83oz per thousand per year, so your annual pre-e cost would be about $0.57 per thousand. Some here divide it up into more applications, but I spray it twice a year at half the annual max and do not get any significant weed pressure.


Granted, getting set up with a nice sprayer requires some expense, but the total annual pre-emergent cost (spring and fall) would be less than $50 for 2 acres with this product.

ETA: Looks like the Amazon price has changed, but you get the idea. :thumbup:


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

Thanks Ware.....lll have to look into the Prodiamine. I have a boom sprayer.

I'm paying pretty close to $30 bag at Site One depeding on who waits on me down there.

My pre's and ferts have always been granular.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

SWB said:


> high leverage said:
> 
> 
> > SWB said:
> ...


I think your lawn looks great. There really is no problem doing what you have been. But like Ware suggested there are more cost effective options in regards to pre-emergents. By the way, sweet Turf Tracer.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

@high leverage @rhanna @Movingshrub @Mightyquinn @Ware @SWB

Thank you all for your unique perspectives. I'm going to chew on it all and fortunately I still have some time to figure out what works best for me with my equipment and budget. It's going to be an adventure for me in 2019.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> ...fortunately I still have some time to figure out what works best for me with my equipment and budget. It's going to be an adventure for me in 2019.


For sure - there are many roads to Dallas. :thumbup:


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## SWB (Sep 22, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> @high leverage @rhanna @Movingshrub @Mightyquinn @Ware @SWB
> 
> Thank you all for your unique perspectives. I'm going to chew on it all and fortunately I still have some time to figure out what works best for me with my equipment and budget. It's going to be an adventure for me in 2019.


Best of luck on what ever you decide. Update this thread after you get started.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

cglarsen said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure if it's been asked yet but with all this talk of spraying stuff, what equipment do you have to spray stuff with? Spraying an acre with a backpack sprayer is not going to be a good idea
> ...


While it doesn't compare to many of the lawns on here I was quite proud of what I was able to accomplish this year in a situation very similar to yours. You can check out my journal for all the pictures but here is where I started:


And here's a couple shots during the summer when the common Bermuda was looking pretty good:


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

So after two blanket apps of glyphosate at 0.5oz/M there are still pockets of clover that are laughing at me. The stuff doesn't even yellow....what should I do? Go at it with a heavy rate? It's only about 5% of the square footage that hasn't browned out.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

cglarsen said:


> So after two blanket apps of glyphosate at 0.5oz/M there are still pockets of clover that are laughing at me. The stuff doesn't even yellow....what should I do? Go at it with a heavy rate? It's only about 5% of the square footage that hasn't browned out.


I'd go with 2.5-4 oz per 1000, and 0.5oz per gallon of spreader sticker. It's not touching the clover because it's just rolling off. You can also add in some three way and some MSM.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Glyphosate is mostly for killing grassy weeds. In the dormant season, Bermuda handles Three Way very well. For clover in dormant Bermuda, I would be laying down Triclopyr. Something that should not be used on green Bermuda.


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## cglarsen (Dec 28, 2018)

Ok cool, I will try some 3-way. Can I spot spray the clover or should I blanket it?

Will a little help MSO increase penetration?


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