# My grass seems hungry



## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Don't know if the warm winter has worked against my normal plan, but now is about when I'd normally do my first nitrogen app here in central PA. But I've actually done two so far - once about a month ago with 44% controlled-release (at about 0.5 lb/1000 sq ft), and once last week with 16% fast-release (at about 0.2 lb/1000 sq ft). And it still looks hungry.

The freshly renovated TTTF and KBG look good, but the older northern mix looks light green and is showing a bunch of small patches that look like red thread (reddish colored blades, brownish hue, 8-10" round). I have a tendency to get these every year.

Could I possibly need MORE nitrogen?

Thanks!


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## gasdoc (Jul 24, 2019)

How much N have you put down?

I have a new reno something similar. I diagnosed it as leaf spot/melting out (leaf spot stage).

Multiple risk factors:

Young grass
High spring N
Frequent mowing
Irrigation

Supposedly it is usually well tolerates unless it proceeds to the melting out phase. I decided to treat.

Do you have any lesions on any not yet dead blades?

Edit: just saw your total N was 0.7lbs/M. I've given quite a bit more (1.5) so was easier to rule out deficiency


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@mooch91 What kind of slow release? All coated N is very temp and water dependable. Only Umaxx is less, but even then Urea is temp dependant by itself. We've all had a cold and dump/dry for some spring. Anytime you need to know or not sure if the grass is hungry I would do 0.3N straight AS and watch it for week.. I am referring to spring green up here.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Babameca said:


> @mooch91 What kind of slow release? All coated N is very temp and water dependable. Only Umaxx is less, but even then Urea is temp dependant by itself. We've all had a cold and dump/dry for some spring. Anytime you need to know or not sure if the grass is hungry I would do 0.3N straight AS and watch it for week.. I am referring to spring green up here.


It's 44% coated urea.

I'll see if I can get some ammonium sulfate. What's the advantage of AS - less dependenrt on temp and moisture?


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## beardizzle1 (Jun 13, 2019)

Renos need to be spoon fed the spring after they've been done. I believe it's like 0.2lbs/N a week? @g-man can clarify what's actually needed.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@mooch91 So, if it was cool enough your coated Urea did not engage yet and the 66% probably mostly volatized due to lack of micro (Urease) to break it down to Amonia (plant available N). AS does not need microbes activity, but it is readily available to the grass. It also is more stable in the soil. Weather warmed up, so any fast release should give a response now. Be careful, the coated portion you put will also kick in. I am at 1.25N so far, but I have a young grass. Most of it was AS. Switching to slow upon my next app.


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## CarolinaCuttin (Sep 6, 2019)

mooch91 said:


> Babameca said:
> 
> 
> > @mooch91 What kind of slow release? All coated N is very temp and water dependable. Only Umaxx is less, but even then Urea is temp dependant by itself. We've all had a cold and dump/dry for some spring. Anytime you need to know or not sure if the grass is hungry I would do 0.3N straight AS and watch it for week.. I am referring to spring green up here.
> ...


One big advantage (depending on where you are) is that it doesn't require enzyme activity to be made available to the plant. Urease is a ubiquitous enzyme responsible for catalyzing the conversion of urea to ammonia. It doesn't work very well below about 50° F.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Bought 4 bags (50 lb) of ammonium sulfate today, $40 total.

I'm going to spread one bag every two weeks, should give me about 0.2 lb/1000 sq ft each time.

Will start as soon as rain is forecast here in central PA, should be the next couple of days or so.

Is it possible that my older lawn is just a hungrier lawn, requiring more nitrogen input (or more frequent nitrogen input) per season than some of the newer, renovated areas?


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Babameca said:


> @mooch91 So, if it was cool enough your coated Urea did not engage yet and the 66% probably mostly volatized due to lack of micro (Urease) to break it down to Amonia (plant available N). AS does not need microbes activity, but it is readily available to the grass. It also is more stable in the soil. Weather warmed up, so any fast release should give a response now. Be careful, the coated portion you put will also kick in. I am at 1.25N so far, but I have a young grass. Most of it was AS. Switching to slow upon my next app.


Same here, about to apply a slow release which will take me up until the end of August when I start the "Fall Nitrogen Blitz". It's also about time for the 2nd app of prodiamine. I feel like I should've done the prodiamine a little earlier to get at the poa. Some Poa Annua still germinated even though I hit the lawn with prodiamine April 1st.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@john5246 I don't know why some say 2nd Prodiamine is at 70F up. Your first one at its lowest rate is still holding strong... A much more logical app schedule is 50F, 3 months later, another 3 months OR at 70F downwards whichever occurs latest...


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

All,

I dropped 0.3 lb/1000 sq ft AS yesterday. Expecting some rain today and the next couple of days after a few 80-degree days.

I'm hopeful this helps. Still not sure what I'm dealing with - I am suspecting a red thread disease that attacks my "older" part of the lawn, maybe something within it that's more susceptible. I can't imagine it's anything a result of overwatering or overfertilization at this point in the season and considering the amount of fertilizer I've dropped to-date.

I did a soil test 2 years back and all looked decent except for a low phosphorous content. I added about 1.5 lb/1000 of P slowly across the season last year.

I took an overhead picture of how the lawn looks, see attached. There's a wide band in the middle which is the "older" northern mix. At the far top of the picture (shed line and beyond) and very bottom of the picture (patio and back) are recently renovated TTTF/KBG areas. You can see the distinction - the middle band is yellow-ish and the brown spots within are the small fungus-y patches (they have more of a pink/red hue when viewed up close). It gets this way each year, but I do tend to underfertilize across the season (probably closer to 2 -3 lb/1000 total), though it's looking particularly bad right now.

Thanks again all.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

The combination of AS plus about 1" of rain during Friday night's thunderstorm seems to have improved the situation a little. Some color and green growth has returned.

Would 0.2 lb/K of AS every two weeks until it gets warm seem to be an acceptable fertilization schedule, assuming I'm willing to put in the time? 0.2 lb/K was a good rate to spread, and it's inexpensive enough at $10/bag to be practical.

Thanks!


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@mooch91 Sounds good. Apply K too. Just before and after the summer heat it is great for stress. Also, grass needs K in roughly 2:1 ratio to N.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

0.2lb of AS/ksqft or 0.2lb of N/ksqft from AS?

You should get better results from 1lb of AS/ksqft (0.21lb of N/ksqft). You can also use urea at 0.5lb of urea/ksqft (0.25lb of N/ksqft) as save more money on 2 acres of lawn.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

g-man said:


> 0.2lb of AS/ksqft or 0.2lb of N/ksqft from AS?
> 
> You should get better results from 1lb of AS/ksqft (0.21lb of N/ksqft). You can also use urea at 0.5lb of urea/ksqft (0.25lb of N/ksqft) as save more money on 2 acres of lawn.


Thanks. I meant 0.2 lb/K of nitrogen (or more accurately 0.21) from the AS.

I've been using the urea, but it's hard to spread any granules consistently at lower than 1 lb/K of product (0.46 lb/K nitrogen) with my Lesco spreader. That's why the AS was a good find for me.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

:thumbup:


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Another indicator I've seen this year (see it every year but particularly bad this year) is the presence of clover in the lawn. When the grass is lush and green in the very early spring, it's barely observable, but now it's actually growing higher than the turf in some spots. And the color difference is obvious (looks greener than the lawn).

I've heard this can be an indicator of low nitrogen, but I don't know how reliable it is. Or if it could be a function of a particularly warm winter.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@mooch91 Did you ever try to control it? Hit it with triclopyr now before it gets too hot. Clover is perennial and will find (as every other weed) an opportunity to spread, it is a survival instinct for any plant.
I had great success on clover back in the days with the simple trio: 2,4D Dicamba, Mecocrop.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

Babameca said:


> @mooch91 Did you ever try to control it? Hit it with triclopyr now before it gets too hot. Clover is perennial and will find (as every other weed) an opportunity to spread, it is a survival instinct for any plant.
> I had great success on clover back in the days with the simple trio: 2,4D Dicamba, Mecocrop.


Yea, had some 3-way with quinclorac mixed up so I hit it this evening. I also have triclopyr ester which I'll move to next if it doesn't control, provided it doesn't get too warm. I do knock it back every year but find it reappears by beginning of next season.


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## Duke (Apr 4, 2019)

Man.. I also have a HUGE clover outbreak in my lawn this year! Cannot believe its due to lack of Nitrogen, but maybe somehow.. I just got some Gordon's Speedzone in today. Was actually wondering if I should zap it or just wait till fall. A lot of it is so thick, that I do not think there will be grass there to take over. I'd be looking at dead patches (big ones, too) until September.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I also have an old nomix lawn and suspect it's hungry despite that I've done 0.25lb N/k every 2 weeks this spring. I used fast release urea but switched to AS last week.

I don't have the red thread issue but definitely nowhere close to the colour and density I had in the fall during the N blitz.

Check out some experimenting I did:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19082


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I also have an old nomix lawn which seems hungry even though I've been feeding it 0.25lb N/k every 2 weeks since spring. I used fast release urea but switched to AS last week.

I don't have the red thread issue but it's nowhere near as dark green and lush as it was last fall during the N blitz

Check out some experimenting I did:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19082


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