# Suggestions for KBG to mix into TTTF lawn?



## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Hey Guys-

I'm looking for suggestions for a variety or two of KBG to add to my TTTF lawn when I do some overseeding (and a reno of my front yard) in the fall... My back yard is currently four varieties of TTTF:
>Regenerate
>Rhizing Moon
>Valkyrie LS
>Titanium LS
These varieties are all pretty dark (for fescue), fairly low-water-input, and 3 of the 4 are rhizomatous. Valkyrie and Titanium are more shade-tolerant, also, which is a big plus.

What I'm looking for in KBG would be:
>Mows well above 2.5" - preerably mows well at 4"...(my yard is fairly bumpy and the fescue likes a tall mow)
>Shade tolerant - I'm hoping between the KBG and the Valkyrie/Titanium I can keep shadier areas better filled
>Blends well with existing fescues

I've been looking at a few on seedsuperstore (Mazama looks like a decent fit) but I'd love some input!


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

I'm also curious about how much KBG seed to add if I make a mixture for a full reno... TTTF is typically 10lb/1000sq ft for a full seeding; KBG is 3lb/1000 if I recall correctly? How do I account for this when buying seed or making a blend?


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## Tadow781 (Oct 11, 2019)

There was a thread about grass seed, can't remember where, but it was basically a member who worked for a seed company. I think it was a title like, grass seed ask me anything. Try searching the threads and sending a pm.


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

Hey @Carlson ! Awesome question and a great one to ask before you jump into overseeding and renovating. Here we go, buckle up:

It's very difficult to overseed KBG into an existing yard. KBG is pretty slow to germinate, and goes through a slow growing stage after sprouting (often referred to as "sprout and pout"). This cause the KBG to get shaded out by the existing grass, denying it the sunlight it needs to thrive. Additionally the mature grass will be outcompeting the seedlings for water and nutrients, essentially guaranteeing the KBGs demise. FINALLY, even if all that wasn't the case, you're gonna want to water pretty heavy for 15-25 days after seeding which is a really long time for TTTF to stay wet, especially in late summer. This invites fungus and it's hard to have a good time with that.

For your requirements (shade, high mow, dark) I would look into Midnight, Mazama, and Bewitched. For your renovation area the general recommendation is adding 10% KBG by weight to the fescue, so if you're putting down 10 lbs of seed it would be 9lbs fescue, 1 lb KBG. The roughly equates to 50/50 seed mixture since the bluegrass seeds are much, much smaller than fescue seeds. (You can essentially seed at the fescue rate or go 1 lb lighter per 1k sqft)

One tip I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND is to keep and spread your seeds separately. For instance if you're putting down 27 lbs of fescue and 3 lbs of KBG spread the fescue over the seed bed first and then the KBG.

This is the best way to ensure you get a consistent seed mixture across your yard. If you blend them together in a spreader they will segregate by weight and you'll have seeded some areas very heavy with bluegrass and others will have received no KBG.

Back to overseeding: if I was you I would only put KBG in large bare patches of an existing tttf lawn. This can be accomplished naturally if you have any summer die off or chemically with a non selective herbicide like glyphosate. I would make a few 10x10 irregularly shaped patches and only put KBG in them. When spring comes around you can plug a few more areas and in 1 year you'll have a decent mix.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@CrackedCornCrack that is super-helpful - thank you. The ratio by weight is what I was after!

For the reno I'm planning to gly my whole front yard & then sow the new seed either with a slice seeder or a verticutter followed by spreading... if I go slice seeder, sounds like a good bet would be to do a couple types of fescue in one direction, a couple types at a 60° angle relatice to the first, and then my 1-2 types of KBG at 60° from that.

Still gonna mull it over since I have a few months - I may just stick with pure fescue and hope I can coax some halfway decent rhizome activity out of the 3 rhizomatous varieties I have.


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## ScottW (Sep 16, 2019)

@Carlson Check this link and scroll down to the bottom for some seed mix calculations if you want to get into the weeds (pardon the bad pun) with numbers accounting for germination rate.
https://newsomseed.com/grassseedmixes.html

Most TTTF/KBG blends I've seen are around 90/10 TTTF/KBG by weight.

Newsom's 90/10 TTTF/KBG mix is basically 30/30/30% of three different TTTF cultivars plus 10% of a single KBG cultivar by weight. Not the latest/greatest/sexiest cultivars IMO but that's the ratio they use.

I'm using the above blend in some large dead areas of my back yard (where I've killed triv with glypho).
In the front yard where I've not killed large areas I'm probably going to stick with just TTTF.
I have a TTTF-only mix that contains Titanium and Firecracker LS varieties plus some non-LS types. I have that going in plug trays and jiffy pots right now, gonna plug some into my yard and try to keep track of where (that might be challenging without my yard looking like a test farm) to see if I get any spreading. Even if they don't "LS" they have come up a nice dark green though.


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

@ScottW I see a lot of mixed info on how much the spreading fescue spreads, so if you do a thread on your plug experiment please tag me!

Matt Martin of the Grass Factor definitely saw some rhizome activity and decent spread, but the gent who runs seedsuperstore did not see any real spread. I've definitely seen some rhizomes pulling up a few chunks in my back yard, but it's hard to say what was "spread" vs what was just routine emerging from dormancy in the spring this year.

But yeah I'm also looking to wipe out some triv haha. I did my first pass with gly last weekend - gonna hit the definite triv spots once or twice more this spring, then do the whole yard in mid-Aug for a fall reno. I'm excited - but my wife isn't lol


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

On this same vein - are the NTEP ratings for TTTF and KBG valid relative to one another? For color, for instance, Regenerate scored 6.8; Mazama scored 7.8... I assume this means the Mazama would be darker, but since they are diff species I wasn't sure.

Is a TTTF 7 the same darkness as a KBG 7 or no?


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

Carlson said:


> On this same vein - are the NTEP ratings for TTTF and KBG valid relative to one another? For color, for instance, Regenerate scored 6.8; Mazama scored 7.8... I assume this means the Mazama would be darker, but since they are diff species I wasn't sure.
> 
> Is a TTTF 7 the same darkness as a KBG 7 or no?


No they are specific to each trial.


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## CrackedCornCrack (Jan 25, 2020)

@Carlson , a really cool way to mix KBG and TTTF would be to Reno your yard with 100% KBG in the fall. Then in the spring cut low and slit seed tttf fescue into the KBG.

That way you're 100% sure to have bluegrass in your yard and still have the benefits of fescue.


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