# Urea or ammonia nitrate help



## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

I can't find any urea for sale around here the only place I can see some is Amazon or Ebay.. but we do have ammonia nitrate for sale 21-0-0 would that be the same as putting urea down??? I was thinking of feeding my baby grass some more nitrogen before winter kicks in.. I put some starter fert down October 12th, ( 3weeks after germination ) and had been feeding it weekly small 4lbs per 1k Milo.. I'm open to all suggestions thank you


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Oops I just saw that it's ammonia sulfate for sale not ammonia nitrate.. I get the two confused but I believe the ammonia sulfate will lower pH I don't want that.. ( just got my pH to 6.4 it was very low) My lawn is just a little over 600 square feet.. would it be worth me buying from Amazon ( urea ) I see some from 1 lb bag and up..


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

21-0-0 is ammonium sulfate instead of ammonium nitrate.

It is a good source of nitrogen. I use it in the fall. It fast and it does create an acid. Be careful if your soil pH is low, because it will lower it more. Use plenty of water after application. To avoid burning your lawn the first time using it, use no more than 2.5lb/ksqft (~0.5lbN/M).


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Using Google maps, search for "feed" stores near you. Then give them a call. 50lb of urea is around $20 at a feed store. The Amazon price is too high in my opinion.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Ammonium sulfate is probably what you want as it doesn't need to be broken down like Urea and is more usable at cooler temperatures. I wouldn't worry too much about it lowering your pH as you would need to use a lot of it to affect it.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

All N fertilizers are going to be acidifying to some extent, but as MQ, said, don't sweat it. Let price and convenience be your guide. If you can find ammonium nitrate (34-0-0) it is less temperature dependent in supplying N (and you get the additional perk of being put on the terrorist watch list).  
If pH is a major concern, urea would be the less acidifying of the alternatives discussed.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Thank you everyone I guess I'll give the ammonia sulfate a try.. you would not believe how hard it is to get anything in California with all the restrictions. I could not even get potash from Amazon as it says will not ship to California as a fertilizer.. I gave it a try they send it to me anyway but I guess I'm not supposed to use it on my lawn.. I even had a hard time getting some humic acid.. I end up getting root Riot it did not have a restriction.. And Ridgerunner hahahahaha.. I'm pretty sure I'm already on the watch list from all the crazy stuff I've been ordering from Amazon.. I got bit by this crazy lawn bug.. and spent more money the last six months that I did my entire 40 years of having a lawn..


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Guys, he lives in California. In another post Mike said he has 88F temperatures. For me, AS is a bit more hot than urea and could cause burns (sulfuric acid is a strong acid).

Apply plenty of water and avoid using too much at once.


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## JohnP (Oct 24, 2017)

I don't know if they ship to California or if the 50# shipping price would kill the deal but my mom's supplier does ship. Reinders.

*Edit:*Nevermind:
Only available for sale in our authorized territories in IA,IL,IN,KS,MI,MN,MO,ND,NE,SD,WI


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Thanks G-man we finally hit fall temperatures..were now in the high 60s for at least the next 10 days.. actually got some rain today ( first rain in 6 months ) I think I'm going to throw down just a small amount 2lbs per 1k.. yes it's been crazy hot here the worst I ever seen. Still have tomatoes growing in the backyard..


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

g-man said:


> Guys, he lives in California. In another post Mike said he has 88F temperatures. For me, AS is a bit more hot than urea and could cause burns (sulfuric acid is a strong acid).
> 
> Apply plenty of water and avoid using too much at once.


I believe Fertilizer "burn" is due to fertilizer being a salt and the attendant detrimental effects of salt concentration to plant moisture. You make a good point that AS has an increased chance of "burning" as the salt index of AS is in the high 80s and urea is like mid 70s. 
Not sure I understand the reference to sulfuric acid as the sulfuric acid used in the production of ammonium sulfate would be expended during process of combining it with ammonia. My understanding is that any combining of sulfate and hydrogen in the soil would be minor and short lived.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Guys, he lives in California. In another post Mike said he has 88F temperatures. For me, AS is a bit more hot than urea and could cause burns (sulfuric acid is a strong acid).
> ...


nailed it. ammonium sulfate acidification is very short lived. it's the salt that causes the burn. but you'll get equal or better performance from a half pound of AMS as you would 3/4 pound of urea. Less volitalization/leaching in the hydrolysis of urea to nh3 and co2


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Thank you Matt.. My soil has way to mush salt as it is now.. I definitely did not want to add any extra salt.. I'm looking forward to be putting down some gypsum to help the leach the salt out.. but I did not want to do too much all at the same time. And now I'm thinking I should use urea. Its only $10.00 for 5 lbs on Amazon and shipping is free right now for me.. Remember I only have a 600 square foot lawn.. And I mainly use Milo and dr. Earth


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> I believe Fertilizer "burn" is due to fertilizer being a salt and the attendant detrimental effects of salt concentration to plant moisture. You make a good point that AS has an increased chance of "burning" as the salt index of AS is in the high 80s and urea is like mid 70s.





thegrassfactor said:


> it's the salt that causes the burn.





MikeD said:


> Thank you Matt.. My soil has way to much salt as it is now.. I definitely did not want to add any extra salt..


Just want to clarify something here in order to help avoid a misunderstanding...

The word "salt" has multiple meanings, which can lead to some confusion. Furthermore, multiple meanings are applicable to lawn care, which makes the "salt" topic even more bewildering.

I think the previous references to "salt" by Ridgerunner and thegrassfactor have to do with a different meaning of the word "salt" than what MikeD is referencing. I'm guessing that MikeD may have had a soil test and has an excess of sodium (Na) in his soil, which probably arose from common salt being introduced to the soil somehow. (Ocean spray or road salt are two common mechanisms for this.) If this is the case, then the use of either ammonium sulfate ((NH4)2SO4) or ammonium nitrate (NH4NO3) won't introduce any more sodium, as neither compound contains any sodium.

In any case, just wanted to avoid misunderstandings here. In lawn care, one has to be very careful not to confuse the different ways that the term "salt" is used, as it can lead to great confusion. (Been there, done that...) It is easy, while learning about these terms, to not realize that there are different usages of the term "salt" and develop misunderstandings as a result.

The relevant meanings of "salt" which relate to lawn care include:


Common "salt" or "table salt" is a mineral compound composed mostly of the chemical compound sodium chloride (NaCl). This common "salt" is the main mineral in ocean water, is what is in the salt shaker on your dining table, and is what is most frequently used on roads in northern states in the winter.

Salts in chemistry - In chemistry, however, the term "salt" doesn't apply just to sodium chloride (NaCl) but refers to an entire class of ionic compounds, of which sodium chloride is just one of many.

Salt index of Fertilizers - Most chemical fertilizers are soluble salts (in the chemistry sense) and can result in the "fertilizer burn" to plants. The "salt index" for fertilizers has nothing to do with table salt (NaCl). However, just to add to the confusion, the "salt index" is based upon the osmotic pressure of sodium nitrate (NaNO3), which is a common fertilizer. By definition, sodium nitrate has a "salt index" of 100. The salt index of any other fertilizer is a comparison to the osmotic pressure of sodium nitrate.

There's also the concept of soil salinity which is related to all of the above, but still distinct.

Hopefully I haven't just muddied the waters with this...

If interested in reading a bit more about some of this, Lebanon Turf has a good article about Salt Index and Sodium that touches on some of the topics that have been discussed here.


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Thank you Ken-n-nancy.. yes I had a soil test done and the sodium is what I was concerned about. Its 10x higher then what is considered optimal. high amounts of sodium in the soil where I live is very common due to the proximity of our location to the bay and ocean. ( sodium is not being added by any other means ) Thank you for the article so its now my understanding that lime will help reduce the sodium by leaching the sodium out as well as gypsum.. lime will raise the pH in time.. Gypsum will not.. so now my understanding is both will add calcium. Lime will add a more usable calcium.. Gypsum will help take the magnesium levels down giving me a better calcium to magnesium ratio which I also need. So now I'm thinking I need to add both. Help me if I'm wrong here Dometic lime will take a long time to start working.. And I need the increase in pH as I just used a calcetic lime not too long ago.. ( PH up from 5.26 to now 6.4 ) my understanding is calcetic lime is short-lived ( around 3 months ) so now I'm thinking I should use both at small doses do a soil test again in 3 months?? Is this crazy is it too much at one time should I apply at different times or maybe months apart.. Or is it okay to throw both down as they are both slow release??? Also keep in mind that my KBG is only 6 weeks old.. And now with the cooler temperatures growing like crazy..


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## MikeD (Aug 17, 2017)

Found my answer I guess you can't do both at the same time.. I think I'm going to let the grass grow for a month.. put down the gypsum during our Rainy month. I'll do another test in early Spring. See if I need more adjustment.. Thanks everyone..


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

MikeD said:


> Found my answer I guess you can't do both at the same time.. I think I'm going to let the grass grow for a month.. put down the gypsum during our Rainy month. I'll do another test in early Spring. See if I need more adjustment.. Thanks everyone..


I must be missing something. That article seems to say just the opposite of your conclusion.

I don't mean to offend, but relying on reported nutrient levels for remediation based on a Soil Savvy test is the equivalent of taking a sick child's temperature with a Mood Ring.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> I don't mean to offend, but relying on reported nutrient levels for remediation based on a Soil Savvy test is the equivalent of taking a sick child's temperature with a Mood Ring.


 :lol: Ridgerunner, you've got me laughing with this one! I've got to remember this analogy the next time somebody posts a Soil Savvy test and asks for interpretation assistance!


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