# Turf Truth



## Ware

This topic is bound to come up. It will likely trigger some emotions. Please keep the discussion courteous and polite. :thumbup:

I was intrigued by Frankfurt, so I went ahead and ordered the book.


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## falconsfan

The anticipation is killing me!


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## Shizzlestix66

I cant wait for this one. I wonder which episode is dedicated to Doc. Lol.


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## JayGo

Who's the creator running the channel? Hope there are factual rebuttals to what is being called out as b.s. and that's it not just a flame channel.
Flame away &#128293;...just back it up. &#128578;


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## g-man

This is just a YouTube channel from the same person (or persons) that runs a Twitter account with the same name. It is being going on for a while. In the Twitter he/they have a BS meter and provides evidence from univ research. In the past the focus was mostly on golf products/industry. Recently the focus shifted to some of the diy YouTube channels.

https://mobile.twitter.com/TurfTruth

For rebuttals, i would imagine each yt channel will either try or ignore. If you look at the Twitter account, you see that most people end up deleting the post.


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## Ware

g-man said:


> This is just a YouTube channel from the same person (or persons) that runs a Twitter account with the same name…


That's interesting. Had no idea.

Was this as a commenter or as a guest?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397286531614773253


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## San

I just read through some of those tweets.

Honestly if they/he/she have/has such expertise, I wish they would put their time into sharing what does work and what is backed up by science. Versus just spending all their time on refuting everybody else on what they have wrong.


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## g-man

Ware said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is just a YouTube channel from the same person (or persons) that runs a Twitter account with the same name…
> 
> 
> 
> That's interesting. Had no idea.
> 
> Was this as a commenter or as a guest?
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1397286531614773253
Click to expand...

During one of the YT live chats, He/She/They log in and were chatting. I'm assuming matt reached out to see if it was really them.


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## g-man

San said:


> I just read through some of those tweets.
> 
> Honestly if they/he/she have/has such expertise, I wish they would put their time into sharing what does work and what is backed up by science. Versus just spending all their time on refuting everybody else on what they have wrong.


In most of the tweets, IT (He/She/They) link to actual research. Most of the universities do post a lot of content on what is right and wrong. Some have YT channels, podcast, blogs, discord channels, webpages and twitter accounts.


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## San

g-man said:


> San said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just read through some of those tweets.
> 
> Honestly if they/he/she have/has such expertise, I wish they would put their time into sharing what does work and what is backed up by science. Versus just spending all their time on refuting everybody else on what they have wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> In most of the tweets, IT (He/She/They) link to actual research. Most of the universities do post a lot of content on what is right and wrong. Some have YT channels, podcast, blogs, discord channels, webpages and twitter accounts.
Click to expand...

I did see that. I just mean, instead of waiting for something to get marketed/posted/shared and refuting it, with 80% seems to be called BS, it would be a lot more efficient if they just wrote a blog with the 20% that actually isn't BS and why it works. And call it the "No BS Blog, proven scientific turf management".

After that, they can go back to calling everything else BS.


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## Pete1313

San said:


> it would be a lot more efficient if they just wrote a blog with the 20% that actually isn't BS and why it works.


No need for that. As @g-man posted earlier, the universities already have a lot of content on what is right.



g-man said:


> Most of the universities do post a lot of content on what is right and wrong. Some have YT channels, podcast, blogs, discord channels, webpages and twitter accounts.


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## San

Pete1313 said:


> No need for that. As @g-man posted earlier, the universities already have a lot of content on what is right.


I think the hundreds of thousands of subscribers to those other Youtube channels would disagree with that.
I'm sure they would all love a channel like the ones they subscribe to with 100% science backed up recommendations.

Or maybe it's just me... and they all just watch those videos because they like to see other people mow their lawns


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## Amoo316

First episode is up, for those that were following this. This looks like it's going to be a fun series.


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## ksturfguy

Might be an interesting channel and Twitter account but would rather the person reveal who they are so we can know how much of an expert they are.


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## Ware

I watched it. It was more or less what I expected it would be. I agree that the message might get lost in the anonymity. I think it would be more impactful if someone owned it.


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## Thick n Dense

Yea lets be fair though, youtube has a truth problem in general, not just in lawncare.
The tubers all copy each others videos regardless od the science - which in lawncare, is unknown to many.

They also destroyed free and fair content with their algorithims to show which videos to watch next and which videos even appear while searching.

Case in point, search, free energy on youtube and go down that rabbit hole.

With the price of fert, im about to start pissing on activated charcoal and throughing that down as my urea apps. Maybe the truther can comment on that one.

Remember, youtube is all about making $. The video producers dont really care if what they are saying is true. 
Also have to think if someone is paying them to say x y z.

Basically almost all videos you see are done by professional tubers. I think the algo sorts by video quality as well. Crappier resolution videos get pushed to the very bottom. 
I dont care about the resolution, I care about the content.

They also force news on you now by putting it in your feed so thats unavoidable.

Make youtube good again


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## Thick n Dense

Another seperate point to the above post... we have a truth problem in society... they say "trust the science".
But what does the science say about males and females ? Should one be able to compete in the others sport ?

Were all doomed.


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## g-man

@Thick n Dense stay on subject please.


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## Thejarrod

I listened to their first video on soil testing while working today. i need to watch it again to really digest what they are saying, but it inspired me to post my experience on a 3 way comparison among Yard Mastery, Waypoint and Penn State, which i did this spring. i never posted about it, but i think now is a decent time. i put that conversation in the soil fertility section here
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=32020


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## Amoo316

I actually find it more entertaining that whoever owns this channel is staying anonymous.

Social media can be nasty. Dunno who here is a sports fan, but look at the tennis player who just got knocked out of the US Open and pointed out the fact she knows she is going to go home and get on social media and have to deal with death threats.

The sad reality is companies are more and more worried about your "social media reach" then they are almost anything else right now. As somebody who has to maintain a social media account for sponsors, trust me when I say, it's legit all about the numbers.

There are 2 "extreme" ways to do social media. 1. be as honest as possible about everything. 2. Try to hock as many products as possible. Depending on your sponsors and your agreements, you might be forced to lean more towards one than the other.

I have no issue with an anonymous channel calling a spade a spade.


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## jayhawk

Enjoyed, laughed #1


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## Harts

This is marketing genius. They way they stay anonymous; the way they tease the next episode. Whoever is doing this knows how to market and sell. This is very well thought out and planned. The comments on the video are emotional reactions - something the channel wanted to create.

Agree or disagree with who these people are and the way there going about debunking the lawn care YouTubers, this channel is going to get a lot of views.

The truth is, they are simply pointing out the fact that most of the YouTubers have become pitch men. While I don't begrudge any of them for wanting to make money and I still watch most of their videos, the products they are pushing aren't for me.


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## lbb091919

100% agree.

This type of content is a relief from all the product pushing and generic opinions about lawncare. I like to geek out and, while I'm no agronomist, very much enjoy the scientific angle Turf Truth is taking with these videos.


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## Thick n Dense

I enjoyed the presentation format. 
Kind of hilarious that they use actual clips from other tubers LMAO
It's fresh to see him Non-PC content where the "expert" is allowed to be criticized while not being overly assertive and smiling too much which is the YouTube Standard LOL.

This formula might be the antidote to a lot of the Youtubers who are out from clicks and views, I've watched a couple of videos out of the LC category that are plain wrong in the physics of what they are attempting to explain, I should call them out LOL.

Looking forward for more videos on the more controversial subjects.

Even if LCN is wrong on some things, I still respect him as having a ton of good content in his "early days" where he explains herbicides, how to spread granular fert with walking speeds, Prodiamine, how to cut aka the 2/3's rule. These are the basics to a great lawn that set me up for success.

Nowadays all the videos are repeats of prior videos or attempts to create more and more content to keep their business going just like games come out with updates and DLC.

Turf Truth might be a good person to call out he big box stores and explain why ordering a jug of prodiamine and urea is better than the products at the BB's.

@g-man I rant sometimes - Sorry, I will try harder to stay on topic.


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## Harts

Thick n Dense said:


> Even if LCN is wrong on some things, I still respect him as having a ton of good content in his "early days" where he explains herbicides, how to spread granular fert with walking speeds, Prodiamine, how to cut aka the 2/3's rule. These are the basics to a great lawn that set me up for success.


Couldn't agree more. I never watched anyone's videos to see what products they were using - it never mattered in my case since they won't ship to Canada. Allyn's video's got me interested in lawn care. Connor inspired me to cut reel low. At the end of the day, I have a tremendous amount of respect for anyone who puts themselves out there publicly. It's not easy getting in front of a camera.

I do wish this channel would provide better options - maybe that will come in future episodes.

On a sort of different subject, if I have to hear anymore about this silly level rake fiasco on YT, I'm going to completely lose it. It's a level rake. You get what you pay for.


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## MasterMech

Thick n Dense said:


> ...
> 
> Turf Truth might be a good person to call out he big box stores and explain why ordering a jug of prodiamine and urea is better than the products at the BB's.
> 
> ...


Better for whom?

That said - I think TT is out to shine light on marketing claims dressed as science rather than maximum efficacy per dollar spent. If you are following along and understand why the discussed claims are BS, you more than likely are educated enough to figure out that 5lb jug of Prodiamine is waaaay more cost-effective than the 0-0-7 product on the shelf at HD/Lowes. Never forget that there is a huge/majority customer base that is best served by those big-box products.

The dream might be to steer the 'tubers (see what I did there... wah wah waaaah :roll: ) in a more productive and industry-sustaining direction. We've already got states/counties taking steps to *kill* the residential turf industry. Rather than simply "buy this from my website and your lawn will look like mine...", they can continue to encourage enthusiasts to make *educated* product applications and create a market for DIY-friendly package sizes/pricing. Yard Mastery is offering prodiamine in a manageable package now. That's a big win IMO. Maybe even push back against the whole idea that lawn enthusiasts are killing the environment. More coverage to cultural rather than chemical practices, such as, how to utilize the latest generation of irrigation controllers combined with good system design to maintain beautiful green spaces and not waste water/money. Even if hiring out the job, an educated customer base will demand better than the 'minimum effort' stuff that gets installed or applied 90% of the time.


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## Buffalolawny

Where are all the Graduate, Undergraduate, Agriculture, Food Sciences and Technologies, Horticulture, Landscaping and Groundskeeping, Turf Management, Plant Science, Soil Science in the industry???

All of the Home Lawn Care vid's on Youtube with counless sub's and their devoted followers Seem to visit these places. And not the other way around. I'm PHD UNI GUY or i'm the Head Superintendant of the PGA i want to be apart of your channel and tell you all about the reason why they liquid fert instead of granular.

There is still that gap between Pro and Home Owner transfer of information.

Youtube - 10min vid on how i applied N_P_K and got a massive green up and growth

Pro - No stupid it was because there was Mag, and Sulfur in the fert that allowed the transfer of BLAH BLAH. And the physical response of the grass was to go green and grow. but you still don't know it was a Calcium issue. Thank god your on youtube and not im my classroom.


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## Grass Clippins

On Snap! Turf Truth just set a reminder for the next video "Lawncology Debunked". I'm excited about this, because I like the drama, but hope it's not going to be another academic calling out the marketing without offering up some solution or direction in which to find the right information. I think that is what @Buffalolawny is saying. Those of us who are willing to put in the time to research the why need a sheepdog to protect the pack. Boys...I think what I'm trying to say is...I need a hero.


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## Buffalolawny

Someone who can access DELETED X-File Papers on a closed Network in the basement of TRUMP Tower. Protected by Boston Dynamics Robotic Dogs. Imagine Atlas Robot after you.!!!!!


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## Grass Clippins

I think the turf industry may have its first super hero.


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## Ware

Grass Clippins said:


> I think the turf industry may have its first super hero.


I don't know if I would go that far yet.

I'm anxious to see what their reach will be on YouTube. They've apparently been on Twitter for years (which is arguably the turf industry's social media platform of choice) and only have a few thousand followers there.

Like most other channels I do think they'll have a core group of followers, but once the new wears off I just don't see myself spending much time watching YouTube videos that criticize other YouTube videos that I either don't have time or don't care to watch in the first place.

I also don't think they'll ever be able to catch up or keep up with the BS they're targeting. Pretty much anyone that can fog a mirror can have a YouTube channel and upload videos as frequently as they want about anything they want as long as the content adheres to YouTube's guidelines - and people will watch it. So while it may be a noble cause, at the end of the day I'm not convinced it will change the way most of these channels (especially the big ones) do business.


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## Buffalolawny

Ware - I agree

But, if Youtube's algorithm is anything to go by. Views and Subscribers win not quality content

Bring on the controversy. Smell the popcorn now


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## Cory

So much BS in YT lawn care videos. I stopped watching them a couple years ago. It's not rocket science, use a good pre-e, use the right amount of fertilize, give it the right amount of water, kill the bugs and fungus that want to eat it, and mow It often enough.


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## doverosx

San said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> San said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just read through some of those tweets.
> 
> Honestly if they/he/she have/has such expertise, I wish they would put their time into sharing what does work and what is backed up by science. Versus just spending all their time on refuting everybody else on what they have wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> In most of the tweets, IT (He/She/They) link to actual research. Most of the universities do post a lot of content on what is right and wrong. Some have YT channels, podcast, blogs, discord channels, webpages and twitter accounts.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I did see that. I just mean, instead of waiting for something to get marketed/posted/shared and refuting it, with 80% seems to be called BS, it would be a lot more efficient if they just wrote a blog with the 20% that actually isn't BS and why it works. And call it the "No BS Blog, proven scientific turf management".
> 
> After that, they can go back to calling everything else BS.
Click to expand...

Fertilize, mow, water.


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## doverosx

MasterMech said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Turf Truth might be a good person to call out he big box stores and explain why ordering a jug of prodiamine and urea is better than the products at the BB's.
> 
> ...
> 
> 
> 
> Better for whom?
> 
> That said - I think TT is out to shine light on marketing claims dressed as science rather than maximum efficacy per dollar spent. If you are following along and understand why the discussed claims are BS, you more than likely are educated enough to figure out that 5lb jug of Prodiamine is waaaay more cost-effective than the 0-0-7 product on the shelf at HD/Lowes. Never forget that there is a huge/majority customer base that is best served by those big-box products.
> 
> The dream might be to steer the 'tubers (see what I did there... wah wah waaaah :roll: ) in a more productive and industry-sustaining direction. We've already got states/counties taking steps to *kill* the residential turf industry. Rather than simply "buy this from my website and your lawn will look like mine...", they can continue to encourage enthusiasts to make *educated* product applications and create a market for DIY-friendly package sizes/pricing. Yard Mastery is offering prodiamine in a manageable package now. That's a big win IMO. Maybe even push back against the whole idea that lawn enthusiasts are killing the environment. More coverage to cultural rather than chemical practices, such as, how to utilize the latest generation of irrigation controllers combined with good system design to maintain beautiful green spaces and not waste water/money. Even if hiring out the job, an educated customer base will demand better than the 'minimum effort' stuff that gets installed or applied 90% of the time.
Click to expand...

I agree with the second paragraph immensely. When people question me, I invite them to kneel down and explore the ecosystem that I've created. The last time I did that, there was a praying mantis and every time I moved the gal to the other side (neighbour's barren desert) the mantis would hop its way back to my side. The carbon sequestration and cycling on my turf is fantastic....oh and I have birds that live in all of the trees on my property. When branches and twigs fall, they pick it up and then I go out and mow; team effort lol.


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## JayGo

Sure seems like the guy behind the channel is poppin' a chubby for Allyn Hane. The debut video is about him and the follow up is going to be about him.

I love the premise behind the channel. I dig the thought of possibly learning something and hope it's not just going to flame people.
But the whole anonymity thing feels a little cowardly (&#129300; maybe a little too strong a word); however, it is the primary thing that has gotten him this attention so far (that and some effective previewing). So I suppose it's achieving the desired result for him.


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## Harts

JayGo said:


> But the whole anonymity thing feels a little cowardly (🤔 maybe a little too strong a word); however, it is the primary thing that has gotten him this attention so far (that and some effective previewing). So I suppose it's achieving the desired result for him.


Who is to say this isn't their goal - getting people to talk about the channel? I don't think they really care what viewers think of their anonymity. Personally, I think it's a brilliant marketing tactic. But I also think it's one that will wear out if they don't eventually change course and start offering some real DIY advice. It's great that they're providing source material to different studies that refute the YouTubers. However, most of us are going to YouTube so we don't have to search out those studies and try to decipher them.


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## Factor

I had never heard of Turf Truth. I dont use Twitter or FB. I think if they want to teach me something its going to be welcomed. I love learning and as just a regular guy most anyone can teach me something. I personally have made may mistakes in my life. Plus its just grass.. so its not something to get worked up about. Looking forward to more vids.


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## Butter

The second one is some funny sh!t! I had kinda grown tired of YT lawn videos but it's nice to be entertained.


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## RCUK

Wonder if he will give an award to the highest BS counter YouTuber, the bar is quite high now.


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## MasterMech

Butter said:


> The second one is some funny sh!t! I had kinda grown tired of YT lawn videos but it's nice to be entertained.


I'll admit to laughing at the buzzer, every, dang, time. :lol: But for the most part, they're making a good point, and just hammering on one mistake Allyn keeps repeating.


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## cleohioturf

I hope some of the tubers who have gone too far down the path of pushing products take a step back after some of these videos.

There are a couple trying to chase the money with private branded products that are already widely available and cheaper. Their content has gone downhill, basically just infomercials pushing product


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## Ware

This must be his subtle way of giving Turf Truth the finger.


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## JayGo

I hope it's because they genuinely believe in the product and not because of something stupid like spite.
If they're going to double down like that, they'd better make sure the odds of being on the right side of this are good.

Still, got to admit that it's entertaining to read reactions...regardless of what side they're on. &#128579;


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## Ware

JayGo said:


> ...Still, got to admit that it's entertaining to read reactions...regardless of what side they're on. 🙃


That's kind of where I'm at. At the end of the day it should be no surprise to anyone that there is misinformation about lawncare (or any subject for that matter) on YouTube. Hell, there is misinformation about lawncare on this site.

Neal Boortz used to regularly tell his audience, "Do not believe anything you hear on this radio show or read from my webpage unless it is consistent with what you already know to be true, or you have taken the time to verify it for yourself." Those are good words to live by.


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## Harts

Ware said:


> Hell, there is misinformation about lawncare on this site.


What????? Say it isn't so.

I agree with the entertainment aspect. I also don't begrudge guys like Allyn seeing an opportunity and creating a business out of this. Good for him.

At the end of the day, if people are buying these products and they're happy with the results, then all of this is moot.


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## Factor

Ware said:


> Hell, there is misinformation about lawncare on this site.


I am first in line for being wrong.

For Turf truth not sure why anyone would use Twitter (I am old). Thats not a learning platform. Plus there is no way to catalog the education and find it easily. Like FB not useful. Unless your goal is marketing and sales.

I try not to watch YT too much. I have fell into the trap a time or two. I am not a Golf Super, Sod farmer, or have a AG degree but I do like learning.

I think the reason for this wrongness. It there is no one real place that gives defined standards that is really open to the public. Example Soil test. This why people come here to have someone read it.

Where can the layman go to actually learn to read a soil test? Where do you find the defined Normal ranges for each element?

Some say Phosphorus needs a minimum of 23 ppm great how high is too high?

Potassium should be 50ppm. Is 200 ppm too much.

The best I can figure is most companies prefer smoke and mirrors.

Someone point me to the best layman book I can read. I dont want a new BS degree I just want to learn the norms..


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## Grass Clippins

@Factor I'm finding the best way for the novice to get field experience is get a soil test, from somewhere like waypoint, and focus on pH and NPK. I think book learning is too broad in scope. When you fill out their form they ask with turf type you have and recommend how to fix pH and NPK. Beyond that focus on water and cut quality/frequency. After you've mastered those task see how it looks and then learn about micros. I feel that if you've got your basic covered then when you experiment with some of the vanity products you'll be less likely to get pulled into the BS. For example, if you were applying Humic Acid or Air 8 with every NPK correction application you might be inclined to give Humic or Air 8 recognition when the real change maker was the NPK correction. That's just my uneducated opinion, take it for what it's worth.

edit: grammar


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## Factor

Grass Clippins said:


> @Factor I'm finding the best way for the novice to get field experience is get a soil test, from somewhere like waypoint, and focus on pH and NPK. I think book learning is too broad in scope. When you fill out their form they ask with turf type you have and recommend how to fix pH and NPK. Beyond that focus on water and cut quality/frequency. That's just my uneducated opinion, take it for what it's worth.


Thanks I already do most of the things you mentioned. I am personally looking to go deeper.

However in general my post is mostly about There is no one real known reliable way to learn lawn care for the layman not just me everyone else. Hence people flock to Youtube (visual learning).

As another example:
This site exists for this reason. I like helping people so I want to learn to help better. I just dont want to go back to school to do it.

Different example: If I need to learn more about my car. I can buy a Chilton's manual. Where is the manual fo lawn care, soil and or grass?


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## Amoo316

The thing that makes lawn care different from buying a Chilton's manual for a car is the variables. Due to mother nature they are infinite. Water right, cut right, soil test and fert to recommendations, minimize weeds, treat/prevent fungus & insects. Those are the basics. Anything beyond that is bonus and unpredictable.


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## Thejarrod

Factor said:


> Grass Clippins said:
> 
> 
> 
> Where is the manual fo lawn care, soil and or grass?
Click to expand...

there are some...
yard mastery bootcamp: https://www.yardcarebootcamp.com/
GCI turf academy; https://gciturfacademy.com/
yahoos on the internet; https://thelawnforum.com/index.php 

OK, those were a joke, but lets also include extension offices. i took a course from Penn State on soil health. it was pretty good...although basically all the info was also available here on tlf. BUT, it is different coming from the university staff. 
https://extension.psu.edu/shopby/online-courses?cat=256

the guys and gals at the extension office are super into this stuff and have been happy to talk to me. give 'em a call if you have specific questions.


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## Factor

Amoo316 said:


> Water right, cut right, soil test and fert to recommendations, minimize weeds, treat/prevent fungus & insects.


Yes but define 
Water right
cut right
soil test right
Fertilization right

There must be defined or accepted standards. Right? no pun intended.


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## Ware

Factor said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Water right, cut right, soil test and fert to recommendations, minimize weeds, treat/prevent fungus & insects.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but define
> Water right
> cut right
> soil test right
> Fertilization right
> 
> There must be defined or accepted standards. Right? no pun intended.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Because everyone's situation and expectations are going to be a little different.


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## Amoo316

Factor said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Water right, cut right, soil test and fert to recommendations, minimize weeds, treat/prevent fungus & insects.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but define
> Water right
> cut right
> soil test right
> Fertilization right
> 
> There must be defined or accepted standards. Right? no pun intended.
Click to expand...

Yes and as mentioned, a soil test from most local county ag extentions will help with those answers. Most offices (at least in my area) even have a rep that will come out to your house if you are having specific issues or questions.

Look at it this way. Farmers grow crops for yields. They soil test annually. (assuming 1 crop per year on the ground). They apply whatever is needed per recommendations off of those tests either before the crops go into the ground or throughout the season as required. If there were extra yields to be gained vs the cost of going out and applying 1#N/week don't you think they'd be doing it?

There are established standards and recommended ranges from university extension offices. In the world of google everything, this stuff is easy to find. Most even have at home guides, calendars, simple basic info, more advanced info...etc.

That all starts though based on your soil test and recommendations for your given crop. Now add in factors like mother nature dumping inches of rain on us every week and farmers having to spray fungicides every 14 days or as frequently as possible because of the added moisture and that's where the variable come in.

It's not like the info isn't out there on the basics.


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## Amoo316

Also to clarify, I agree with @Ware that everybody has different expectations. At some point though you hit a point of diminishing returns per $ of input. How far down that rabbit hole you want to go is up to you, but that doesn't change the basic numbers for a quality healthy stand of turf or any other crop.


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## Factor

Thejarrod said:


> i took a course from Penn State on soil health. it was pretty good...although basically all the info was also available here on tlf. BUT, it is different coming from the university staff.
> https://extension.psu.edu/shopby/online-courses?cat=256


Thanks for this this is cool.


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## Factor

Ware said:


> Not necessarily. Because everyone's situation and expectations are going to be a little different.


Well no wonder everyone is having trouble.

In general I am not talking about expectations.

If we go out to the soil and get a sample. Let's just say the Potassium comes back at 12ppm on a M3. In general is that too low or too high?

Where is the best place to find the answer? Who defines the standard? Where is the Range kept and what book is it in?


Ware said:


> No matter what subject you're researching, it's not difficult to find conflicting information/findings.


Does the Turf industry not have a Standard defined related to excepted standards? Where are those? Are we all making this up? Are certain people keeping the knowledge hidden?



Amoo316 said:


> but that doesn't change the basic numbers for a quality healthy stand of turf or any other crop.


This is it. where is this standard that qualifies a healthy turf, soil and ect.



Amoo316 said:


> There are established standards and recommended ranges from university extension offices. In the world of google everything, this stuff is easy to find. Most even have at home guides, calendars, simple basic info, more advanced info...etc.


That is what I am asking for a book to read. Not google. What books or journals do you read to learn more?



> It's not like the info isn't out there on the basics.


Its seemly hard to find.

All not trying to be hard here. I guess I will just go look on Amazon.


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## Grass Clippins

@Factor SARES has a book called Building Soils For Better Crops.

https://www.sare.org/resources/building-soils-for-better-crops/

PDF is free but I ordered the real book. It's not 100% applicable but still good. I think we're in a similar situation to a lot of farmers. We want to learn more but don't want to go back to college.


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## Factor

Grass Clippins said:


> @Factor SARES has a book called Building Soils For Better Crops.
> 
> https://www.sare.org/resources/building-soils-for-better-crops/
> 
> PDF is free but I ordered the real book. It's not 100% applicable but still good. I think we're in a similar situation to a lot of farmers. We want to learn more but don't want to go back to college.


Thanks Brian. This is good too.

Its just interesting to me. It must be me not getting my point across. I mean if there is "Turf Truth" then the must be documented truths (standards) for people to read and learn. If its all happenstance there is no standard or truth so it just chaos. I am not for chaos...


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## Grass Clippins

@Factor You're getting your point across. There's definitely truth out there based on science but if you want to go that far into the cause and effect of things I think you would literally need to go college or pick up a syllabus and start reading textbooks. Turf Truth refers to the chaos you mentioned as anecdotal data or BS. I think highly of the people on YouTube (Matt, Rey & Ryan D.)who really know their stuff and are willing to help us understand things. That carries serious value. To put it into perspective Rutger's Professional Golf Turf Management School offers a three week online course for a mere $1,995. 2018 Graduate Leonardo Colin of Shoreacrest said, and I quote, "I used to just mow. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know anything about macro or micro nutrients in soil. Now I know enough to be able to ask questions and keep learning."

I realize that I still didn't answer your orginal question :lol:


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## Grass Clippins

@Factor Now you've sparked my interest. Penn State has a Turfgrass Management (Basic) Online Course. And....they have a Virtual Open House on Oct 5th, we should crash it. Just a bunch of Dad's asking questions to PhD's about our soil test :lol:

On a serious note, I'm not interested in getting back into the tuition racket but I would like to know what text they'll be covering. I'll see what I can find.


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## Grass Clippins

@Factor

Course list from Penn State Turfgrass Management Basic Certificate Program. The courses below looked most interesting.

*Soil 101*, this is a prerequisite course to 434 and 435
Elements of Nature and Properties of Soil

*Turf 235 - The Turfgrass* this is a prerequisite course to 434 and 435
Fundamental of Turfgrass Management

*Turf 434 - Turf Edaphology*

I'm not able to find the textbook TBD

*Turf 435 - Turf Nutrition*

Can't find the textbook on this either TBD


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## Ware

I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread. :lol:


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## Factor

Ware said:


> I saw this today and it reminded me of this thread. :lol:


Ware at least you make me laugh..


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## Factor

Grass Clippins said:


> I think highly of the people on YouTube (Matt, Rey & Ryan D.)who really know their stuff and are willing to help us understand things. That carries serious value.
> I realize that I still didn't answer your original question :lol:


I really do respect them all too. I love watching them. I really love hearing Rey @Greendoc talk about low Phosphorus and purple grass.. Matt @thegrassfactor is a Tennessees man so you know he is good. Ryan D. makes me laugh.. I learned alot just watching them read soil tests. What would be really cool is if they just took each part and explain it in detail. All while Ryan D drinks a Keystone.. :lol: I think Matt has an old video but its not detailed enough for me..


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## Factor

Grass Clippins said:


> @Factor They have a Virtual Open House on Oct 5th, we should crash it. Just a bunch of Dad's asking questions to PhD's about our soil test :lol:


They would not understand us with you from GA and me from TN. We would say Yall and fixinto an few times. Then we would be the life of the party... :bandit: :lol:


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## jayhawk

Well, the first October episode ....was a layup for TT, (The bag comparison) wow.


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## Ware

jayhawk said:


> Well, the first October episode ....was a layup for TT, (The bag comparison) wow.


Yeah, and I wasn't really amused by TT calling BS on the guy's recommendation to fertilize every 4-6 weeks on the basis that some people don't fertilize at all and are happy with the appearance of their lawn. That's pretty weak.


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## jayhawk

Ware said:


> jayhawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the first October episode ....was a layup for TT, (The bag comparison) wow.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I wasn't really amused by TT calling BS on the guy's recommendation to fertilize every 4-6 weeks on the basis that some people don't fertilize at all and are happy with the appearance of their lawn. That's pretty weak.
Click to expand...

Concur. That part ...? Where did they source that?


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## San

Ware said:


> jayhawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the first October episode ....was a layup for TT, (The bag comparison) wow.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I wasn't really amused by TT calling BS on the guy's recommendation to fertilize every 4-6 weeks on the basis that some people don't fertilize at all and are happy with the appearance of their lawn. That's pretty weak.
Click to expand...

I thought all the arguments in that one were kind of weak.

He thought the bag was $16 buck and didn't do the math completely right. Sure he probably had some affiliate links that made him biased. But simple math has little to do with "exposing" the lawn myths.

The only other points made were the one on timing, because people that don't care as much about grass are happy not fertilizing that often.

And the point about oxides not helping at all in the next 10 years, I don't know much about this, but a quick google search returns this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899443/
Where they test using Iron Oxide in nanoparticles form to see if it can replace chelated iron, their research seems pretty extensive and their conclusions are that: "Fe2O3 NPs could be an ideal substitution for EDTA-Fe in agriculture and can be utilized as a Fe source by peanut plants".

Now I know grass aren't peanut plants, but to me that at least calls some level of BS on the fact that they say iron oxide isn't usable to the plants in the next 10 years.


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## Drix

San said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> jayhawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the first October episode ....was a layup for TT, (The bag comparison) wow.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, and I wasn't really amused by TT calling BS on the guy's recommendation to fertilize every 4-6 weeks on the basis that some people don't fertilize at all and are happy with the appearance of their lawn. That's pretty weak.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought all the arguments in that one were kind of weak.
> 
> He thought the bag was $16 buck and didn't do the math completely right. Sure he probably had some affiliate links that made him biased. But simple math has little to do with "exposing" the lawn myths.
> 
> The only other points made were the one on timing, because people that don't care as much about grass are happy not fertilizing that often.
> 
> And the point about oxides not helping at all in the next 10 years, I don't know much about this, but a quick google search returns this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4899443/
> Where they test using Iron Oxide in nanoparticles form to see if it can replace chelated iron, their research seems pretty extensive and their conclusions are that: "Fe2O3 NPs could be an ideal substitution for EDTA-Fe in agriculture and can be utilized as a Fe source by peanut plants".
> 
> Now I know grass aren't peanut plants, but to me that at least calls some level of BS on the fact that they say iron oxide isn't usable to the plants in the next 10 years.
Click to expand...

reading it, my take was they used peanuts because they are more sensitive to Iron so the impacts could be judged better.

In regards to TT I don't know what their bias is but I'm sure there is a hidden bias, somewhere. When they nit-picked Allen's video about nitrogen excessively, most people understand its lbs down not just numbers on the bag. And he should have been more clear but he has in many other videos.


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## Amoo316

I much more enjoyed this week's episode them most of the previous ones. I don't mind dumpstering a youtuber here or there who is clearly trying to sell product vs Science as an occasional episode. I much prefer things like this week, where they displayed common misconceptions in the industry as a whole. The BS counter is fun, but the higher the episode in Scientific information, the more I'm likely to enjoy it.


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## Wile

I agree and I do enjoy the occasional roast. I also think that even if some of the YT content is inaccurate it is getting people to think about turf and potentially get them more involved to learn more. Some of the TT content would be way over most beginners heads and could discourage them from learning because it's too difficult to understand. However, the information is great for intermediate and advanced.

Can someone explain the liming recommendations? I feel like they glossed over this a bit when they said they would not base liming recommendations off just pH alone. Would this be the correct assertion for how liming is recommended?
1. pH (yes/no)
2. Desired pH
3. Lime Buffering Capacity
4. Calculating Recommendations


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## g-man

First they evaluate if your pH is too low. If low, then the lab does another test to determine how much lime it needs (aka buffer pH), and then they calculate how much lime your soil needs to adjust the pH to 6.5 (typical). The lab then prints in the report the lime qty. If the lab does not report how much lime to use, then use another lab instead of guessing.


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## Amoo316

Wile said:


> Can someone explain the liming recommendations? I feel like they glossed over this a bit when they said they would not base liming recommendations off just pH alone. Would this be the correct assertion for how liming is recommended?
> 1. pH (yes/no)
> 2. Desired pH
> 3. Lime Buffering Capacity
> 4. Calculating Recommendations


Maybe I misunderstood the point, but I felt they were referencing a lot of what @g-man talks about in this thread about liming recommendations and which type you should used based on pH and a few other factors.

Ooops, sorry @g-man posted at same time as you.


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## Wile

Thanks ya'll. Was just reading g-man's write-up there before I saw you both responded. It sounds like I was on the correct trail just maybe off the path.


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## NoslracNevok

My first inclination is to say it's desirable if TT does more (obviously has the knowledge), but that'd be like my disdain for people nagging on Elon Musk for not doing enough/not focusing on what they feel is more worthy. TT 10/10 tapped a vacant spot in the lawntube (TGF does similar stuff as well). One of a few to earn a bell notification for the time being.


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## Wile

It's funny you say that as it earned my first notification bell as well. I follow hundreds of channels too. It's a much needed and welcomed addition for me.


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## Phids

I only watched one Turf Truth video yesterday, and it was him ripping on Allyn Hane and Ron Henry when they went over soil test results. While I think he may have some valid criticisms of their claims, his approach is rather poor. The main reason is that he nitpicks a lot of things, but he fails to provide the most crucial information: how SHOULD it be done? By failing to do this, it seems that his attempts to eliminate confusion have the potential to create *more* confusion.

I realize there are people (including on this site) who hold grudges against some lawncare Youtubers. I think these grudges might be a mixture of legitimate concern, jealousy at others' success, and the online disinhibition effect in action. But in the end, these Youtubers are sharing lawncare practices that they have found to work well. The proof is always in the pudding; after all, a guy who has a great lawn must be doing something right, right?

Without Youtubers, your average homeowner will end up getting information from some other source, whether it be some neighbor on the block who has a good lawn, or from the hourly associate at Home Depot who gets information from who-knows-where.


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## Buffalolawny

Im Subbed to the channel and also happily watching 50+ subbed Lawn care channels including the The one's in the videos so far.

Some have become promo ads for their parent product partners. Annoying i know

But, 99% of people on this forum are switched on to these things and sometime's even the "best" have lightbulb moments where things click.


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## jayhawk

Found him https://speechelo.com/g-offer/?gc_i...Dk_ZnFsnB4gWT1pPueDapcHNlz21m8JoaAnJnEALw_wcB

Push play


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## Guest

https://youtu.be/hWyMd34WrDc


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## 01Bullitt

Now this is entertaining! @thegrassfactor FTW!


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## Wile

Well, the latest episode only confirms TT is Matt Martin :lol:


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## g-man

Wile said:


> Well, the latest episode only confirms TT is Matt Martin :lol:


It is not Matt.


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## Wile

g-man said:


> Wile said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the latest episode only confirms TT is Matt Martin :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> It is not Matt.
Click to expand...

I know, but its a fun joke if you listen to the TGF podcasts and B&R


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## jayhawk

I think it's a Canadian ....with all the upfront disclosures the 51st state apparently imposes ?


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## JerseyGreens

Wait...can TT be the one and only PhD of grass, @g-man...is it you mate !?


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## Thejarrod

jayhawk said:


> I think it's a Canadian ....with all the upfront disclosures the 51st state apparently imposes ?


Red Herring!


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## Wile

JerseyGreens said:


> Wait...can TT be the one and only PhD of grass, @g-man...is it you mate !?


My thought exactly


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