# KBG Overseed



## crussell (Mar 12, 2018)

Hey all - I know that trying to overseed KBG is taboo, and often is a waste of effort. But, I really want to establish KBG Midnight into the baseball field project I'm working on.

If I apply frequent PGR applications before over seeding, and keep my HOC at 0.75", do you think I stand a chance?

I would also scarify the turf prior to spreading seed, roll, water in, etc.

Thank you,


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Last year I overseeded a few thin areas of my KBG reno. Some areas did ok, some areas not as good. I think it's possible to overseed KBG, but is difficult. I'd say give it a try and use the PGR like you've said, but be prepared that it can fail. Maybe try and get it done early in the fall (I'm assuming your planning a fall overseed) and if things go bad have some p rye on hand.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

What are you overseeding the KBG into? Another KBG cultivar or ryegrass?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If use is low, it's worth a try. I guess, it really depends more on the budget for experimentation. Check out this.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Has anyone tried a dormant KBG overseed? Curious if the expectations of success would be less than a fall overseed.


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## crussell (Mar 12, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> What are you overseeding the KBG into? Another KBG cultivar or ryegrass?


I would call it a northern mix - KBG, PRG, and TTTF. I know that over time the KBG will continue to spread, but I'm hoping to make it the dominant grass sooner if possible.



Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If use is low, it's worth a try. I guess, it really depends more on the budget for experimentation. Check out this.


So from what I'm reading, the odds are not good. They recommend a PRG overseed during the season, and suggest KBG after the fall season, during the winter with the hopes it will germinate in spring? Would freezing winter temps kill the seed? Our winter has been very mild, the lows are in the upper 30's for the most part, maybe dipping down to freezing.

If I scarified and spread seed now, I would have to skip my Pre-M and cross my fingers that it makes it.

I guess if it doesn't work, I'm only out for what I paid for the seed and my effort...


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

No, the freezing temps wouldn't kill the seed. Common practice I mentioned before is dormant seeding or snow seeding. I am just not sure how it works out with KBG. It seems to be what they are recommending in that post. I have read February is best month. There is a balance I think. You don't want the seed out so long it just feeds birds, or wash away, but you want it out long enough to get pulled into the soil during freeze and thaw cycles.

I think I am going to give it a shot in some thin areas from my reno next month. Worst case I waste a little seed.

Here is some reading on the topic:

https://www.johnson.k-state.edu/lawn-garden/agent-articles/lawns/dormant-seeding-lawns.html
http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_seeding_during_dormancy/


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

crussell said:


> j4c11 said:
> 
> 
> > What are you overseeding the KBG into? Another KBG cultivar or ryegrass?
> ...


The risk with winter seeding is that you have a day or two warm enough to cause the seeds to germinate, then get a frost which will kill them all. This is always a risk near the end of winter until your sure your at no more risk of frost. One or two nice sunny days and you think your good, then a storm comes in and you got snow on the ground again and your seeds toast.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> The risk with winter seeding is that you have a day or two warm enough to cause the seeds to germinate, then get a frost which will kill them all. This is always a risk near the end of winter until your sure your at no more risk of frost. One or two nice sunny days and you think your good, then a storm comes in and you got snow on the ground again and your seeds toast.


I would also assume if we had a "spring" like last year, it could fail, too. Here in NJ we went from Winter to Summer in what felt like a week.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I've been searching around for this and I'm also interested and concerned at the same time. 
I'm planning on doing a partial Reno/kill off and want to seed with tttf and kbg. The other portion of the lawn would be an overseeding of the same but with different cultivators. With the overseed, I'm planning on applying PGR to slow down the current turf after its short cut.

My concern that the high possibility of failure of the KBG in overseeding. I really want KBG but if there is a good possibility of failure, I may have to go the TTTF only route. I really don't want to plant PRG because of the high kill off rate here in Ma.

I would slit seed the KBG if that were to give it a better chance to germinate.

Has anyone had good experiences
over seeding KBG with TTTF, with the KBG succeeding?

I've read studies that planting PRG with KBG is really difficult because of the competition but not a whole lot on Kbg/TTTF


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Has anyone had good experiences over seeding KBG with TTTF, with the KBG succeeding?
> 
> I've read studies that planting PRG with KBG is really difficult because of the competition but not a whole lot on Kbg/TTTF


Yup, I've done exactly that a bunch of times. No issues whatsoever in each case...overseeding into northern mixes with TTTF and KBG seed.

The method you outlined works great. Just make sure you also top dress the seed a bit with something light, like a thin layer of peat or compost. I also use the groundskeeper rake before overseeding.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Green said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Has anyone had good experiences over seeding KBG with TTTF, with the KBG succeeding?
> ...


This is great to hear! Thanks for adding. I'm more at ease hearing other experiences. I'll be purchasing the seed from either hogan or SSS and as we know, kbg isn't exactly cheap so I didn't want to chance throwing money out the window with this Reno


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> ...


I really feel like that rake beforehand, and the peat or compost after seeding, are the magical things that make it work well. What is your existing lawn in terms of grass types, and how thick is it? Thinner is obviously better.

The other two magical ingredients are the PGR about 5 days before seeding (full rate), and a low mow immediately before seeding. I've done both scalping and a low or even medium mow, and both have worked.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Green said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


My current lawn is fairly thick where I'm thinking of overseeding, during the season. As of now, it's depressing to look at because of the winter effect. It's definitely due for an overseeding. We've lived in the house going on 3 years and the previous homeowner showed no evidence of seeding/overseeding. I slit seeded my front lawn this last September and when comparing the front that was slit seeded to the back, you
Could tell the difference in thickness. It's mostly fescue in the backyard.

Mechanically this is what I was thinking of doing.

Mow the lawn short 1-5-2" 5 days prior to seed down to let the cores breakdown before seed down.

Apply PRG

Days of seed down:
Use a slit seeder to dethatch and rough up seed bed

Drop the seed using my Lesco broadcast spreader

Spread compost/loam using a eco compost spreader

Rent:
Compost spreader
Slit seeder 
Aerator

Is this overkill?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+, I think that will work just fine. I've never let the cores break down before seeding, so I don't know how that works, but I imagine it'll be fine. The only thing worth noting when I used a slit seeder/verticutter after aerating, is that the thing got caught in the aeration holes, and really ripped stuff up, creating some surface unevenness. Then again, aerators do that as well if used after dethatching if you aerate enough times over the same areas.

I imagine your main reason for overseeding, even if the lawn is thick already, is to get better grass types into it (been there, done that several times). Otherwise, there's no point, is there?


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Exactly. The grass that hasnt been hit with Poa T is in good shape. The current cultivators are ok but I'm trying to mix in better seed for a few different reasons. The 2 majors ones is for a darker color and to get better fungus resistance.

My thoughts for the slit seeder is to dethatch and also break up the cores from the aeration portion, essentially I'm recycling my current soil into a seed bed. I've read that some will remove the cores completely but with the size of the yard, that wouldn't work for me.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Scagfreedom48z+, just make sure there's no Poa Triv in that area. The verticutter is not going to help cut down the spread if there is. Quite the opposite...it'll open up room for it to compete with your good grass during germination.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Green said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+, just make sure there's no Poa Triv in that area. The verticutter is not going to help cut down the spread if there is. Quite the opposite...it'll open up room for it to compete with your good grass during germination.


On top of that the verticutter would likely spread Poa triv seeds into uncontaminated area's. Im pretty sure i spread some to my front yard when i aerated, the same would apply to all the dirt that gets stuck on a verticutter. If your worried make sure you heavily hose off the machine after you use it in a contaminated area.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

Great point guys. I'm going to hose it off before as well. Especially with a rental, who knows where it's been. Treat it like a used toilet seat!

My plan is to kill off all the Poa T first before doing anything. There is about 2k sq ft that will get killed off completely and then spot killing as well for the Poa patches that are kicking around.


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## GreenHorn (Nov 23, 2018)

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> My plan is to kill off all the Poa T first before doing anything. There is about 2k sq ft that will get killed off completely and then spot killing as well for the Poa patches that are kicking around.


Been following along. @SG what is your plan of attack for the kill? Do I understand correctly that this is a dormant overseed or are your waiting closer to early Spring.


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## Scagfreedom48z+ (Oct 6, 2018)

I'm planning ahead. This is going to be a 2019 late summer/ early fall Reno and overseed. This would be my first time doing this so
I've been asking questions like crazy.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Green said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


+1 on all of the above. Digging back through these posts, I thought I would mention an experience that I had several years ago (6-6.5 years ago according to my Amazon order history). I completed an overseeding in the fall with Barenbrug's Watersaver RTF. I was still all in with the RTF craze (but became disillusioned a year later with their them and their professional product, Turf Saver RTF-but that's another story).

At the time, I was trying to reduce inputs (fert, herbicides, fungicides, etc.) to reduce costs and maintenance with a young family. I was already spending $$ on organics since '06 with my first born on his way. The RTF was an ok product, but it's color and growth pattern was only ok for me (probably great for others, as I received a few compliments), but I desired the color and texture of kbg.

The following fall I scalped and slit seeded kbg, and within a couple of years, I was able to get kbg to almost completely take over the previously TTTF areas (without any PGRs). So it is possible to get kbg to outcompete TTTF. I think the original RTF seed took over a lot of the PRG, and then the kbg overtook the TTTF. There is no science to prove this, only my observations. I still have some PRG and FF, so there was not a complete takeover. Now I have umpteen kbg cultivars mixed with some TTTF, FF and PRG. The problem now is lack of uniformity. I really need to do a full reno, but time is at a premium in the summer due to work constraints, hence the yearly overseeds (most recently 100% Bewitched to increase uniformity and shade tolerance). I recently purchased Mazama and Beyond and blended it with Bewitched. I dormant seeded the 3-way blend recently. We'll see how that turns out.

I figured that I would help to confirm that overseeding kbg is possible, but difficult and a multi-year process.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Chris LI, my experience overseeding with something new is similar. It can take a few years sometimes. KBG may be tougher initially to add into a lawn, but I think if you do succeed, it gets easier over time to maintain the population due to that species's aggressiveness in the presence of adeqate irrigation and light, good weather conditions, and sufficient fertility.


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## craigdt (Apr 21, 2018)

I did this last fall.

Seemed to do okay.
Existing fescue wasn't really thick, but I low mowed from about 4", dropped the deck down to where the anti scalp wheels were fully on the ground.

Cut it to maybe 3/4".
Then aerated and detached the living heck out of it.

This:









Planted my KBG, twice, over a month, after 2 torrential rains.

Ended looking okay I think:


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