# is this poa trivialis, nutsedge, or some other type of cool season grassy weed?



## critterdude311

*Background:* I've been working on bringing my front and back yard areas up to a "level 2" certified lawn care nut status over the last 3 years. The results have been really good so far and I'm super pleased with how things are going in the front and back yard areas.

With the success in the front and back yard area, I decided to go ahead last fall and tackle my side yard (I live on a corner lot). I bought blue label TTTF seed from a respectable seed supplier (who shall remain nameless for now), as well as brought in several yards of dirt from a local supplier. I dressed the entire side yard area with dirt and overseeded it very heavily in the fall and have continued overseeding it (so far) this spring.

Inexplicably, I've started seeing lime green patches popping up in this area within the last month (I did not see these areas in the fall). I'm not sure what it is, or how it got in. Presumably, it's either contamination of the seed or soil which was used (I wish I knew for sure).

Needless to say, I'm super bummed out on this because it's been a lot of work, which feels like a complete waste of time and perhaps more disturbing, the amount of effort involved to clean up this new mess.

Based on my brief Google searches, I'm assuming the area is contaminated with either:
1) poa triv
2) nutsedge
3) some type of other cool season grassy weed

I've taken some detailed photos in hopes that someone can help identify the weed so I can begin a control program. I'm trying the best I can to come to terms that I might have to go the nuclear (glyphosate) route here and it's giving me nightmares. Any suggestions on how to tackle this?




































PS - Basic weed-b-gone type control has not worked on whatever this is.


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## SNOWBOB11

I'm thinking triv. Maybe quackgrass but I'd lean toward triv. Glyphosate might be the only way to go.


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## Green

I don't believe that's Poa Triv. Whatever it is, this post is timely...yesterday I just dug out some of the same type of grass that you're showing in your photos (at least photos 4, 5, and 7). At first yesterday, I was thinking Poa B (Bulbosa) because I've had it in the lawn in the past...however, I didn't feel the bulbous lower stem on it when I checked it yesterday, so I wasn't totally sure this time. Thankfully, it seemed to have a bunch growth habit, whatever it was...easier to dig out that way. It looks a lot like Poa B, minus the bulbous stem bottoms/crowns.


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## SixString

The purplish hue of the stem leads me to believe it may be crabgrass, or some derivative. Did it pull out pretty easily? Shallow wide spreading root system?


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## SNOWBOB11

SixString said:


> The purplish hue of the stem leads me to believe it may be crabgrass, or some derivative. Did it pull out pretty easily? Shallow wide spreading root system?


I think April is too early for crabgrass.


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## critterdude311

Thanks for the replies so far guys, I appreciate it.



SixString said:


> The purplish hue of the stem leads me to believe it may be crabgrass, or some derivative. Did it pull out pretty easily? Shallow wide spreading root system?


I live in Central New Jersey, and in my neighborhood, we typically do not see any crabgrass coming through turf until the end of June. July and August tend to be the peak time for crabgrass where I live. If it is crabgrass, this would be extremely early. We've also had an unusually slow / cold Spring here so far. Given the history and cold weather this year, I hadn't even considered crabgrass a possibility. That's why it's so helpful to get a second set of eyes on stuff like this.

The weed samples I took pulled out fairly easy. The roots were relatively shallow. The spreading of the plant seems to be *very* wide, particularly when it is surrounded or interwoven with the other good / healthy turf.

The purplish stems on many of the samples are interesting and seem to lend credence to it potentially being some type of crabgrass. I'm thinking about grabbing some post-emergent crabgrass control just to test and see if it has any effect. At this point, I don't think there is any downside to testing that and some sedgehammer just to see if it has an effect.

No pre-emergents were applied to this area of the yard because I had planned to continue seeding the area through the Spring. For what it's worth, I do not see this weed in the front or back yard where I used pre-emergent. In hindsight, I'm wishing I had just applied pre-emergent to the area and waited til the fall to hit it with heavy seed again. Live and learn... :|

The good news here is, if it's some type of crabgrass, I know next year I can stop it with a pre-emergent, so hopefully that's all it is.


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## g-man

I agree with snowbob, this cannot be crabgrass. Crabgrass dies at 32F and it needs a soil temp above ~50F to germinate.

I can't tell what it is. I was leaning to orchardgrass, but the grow pattern is different. It might be a warm season weed.


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## Flying Aces

According to a few guys at Site One landscaping, if it looks a lot like crabgrass but its at this time of the year then its a good chance its quackgrass. One of those pics did look a lot like quackgrass. But there's so much of it, maybe it came in your black dirt? Do you know if it was screened?


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## ABC123

Most likely it's barnyard grass from what I can tell.


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## g-man

Flying Aces said:


> According to a few guys at Site One landscaping, if it looks a lot like crabgrass but its at this time of the year then its a good chance its quackgrass. One of those pics did look a lot like quackgrass. But there's so much of it, maybe it came in your black dirt? Do you know if it was screened?


I looked for clasping auricles, but I could not find any auricles. That rules out quack and annual rye. It can't be crabgrass or POA annual.

Let's ping an expert. @thegrassfactor


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## critterdude311

Flying Aces said:


> According to a few guys at Site One landscaping, if it looks a lot like crabgrass but its at this time of the year then its a good chance its quackgrass. One of those pics did look a lot like quackgrass. But there's so much of it, maybe it came in your black dirt? Do you know if it was screened?


The place I ordered the soil from claims it is:
"A high quality screened, organic, compost topsoil. This mixture has the most nutrients and is the richest topsoil."

It's frustrating because I don't have a way to prove it was the soil, or the seed. I've never seen it anywhere in my yard until this spring though. :roll:


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## g-man

Could you post an image of the seed tag? I will bet it is the soil too. Did they provided you with a soil/compost test?


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## 440mag

My money (fwiw) is on the soil; I have sagas of my own, believes you me.

Sorry you're encountering this (but hey, at least your soil didn't include wireworms (mine did, PLUS weeds! And it looked like "black gold" the whole time, too ...).

Just my grass clippings supplemented by regular top dressing with peat for me, from here on out ...

I've found the local soil guys and farmers are not dishonest; they truly believe they have and are delivering "good" or even "awesome" soil ... it's just that few, if any, of them are true "turf aficionados," if you know what I mean. Come to think of it, I wonder if there are any sod farms that also sell soil? 
Hmmmm......

I truly hope once the true experts here help you positively ID it that you are able to rectify the situation without too much more trouble, etc.


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## critterdude311

g-man said:


> Could you post an image of the seed tag? I will bet it is the soil too. Did they provided you with a soil/compost test?


There was no soil / compost test. It just said the soil was screened.

For what it's worth, here is the tag from the seed I used:


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## critterdude311

One final shot here, I think this is a pretty good angle for ID:



The purple / red stems are very clear here:


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## social port

The growth pattern (particularly noticeable in pic 6) reminds me of dallisgrass-but I really don't know. Have you noticed any seed heads?


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## SixString

Thanks for the feedback on my initial crabgrass assessment. Although I now agree with all of you that based on temps this isn't traditional grabgrass, I still believe it is something in the same family. The combination of the purple hue, the shallow root system, and the sprawling but drooping growth pattern of the shoots gives me hope that if you experiment with some crab post-em, it should knock it out quite a bit. At least it's not Poa T or Poa A!!!


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## critterdude311

social port said:


> The growth pattern (particularly noticeable in pic 6) reminds me of dallisgrass-but I really don't know. Have you noticed any seed heads?


I haven't seen any seed heads yet.


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## alpine0000

In the first couple of pics, it looks like Bermuda grass to me. The last few, not so sure. If so, Pylex is the only thing that'll get it. It's expensive and takes a few apps though. It's a slow process. That stuff is TOUGH.

Acclaim and Turflon Ester will suppress it, but probably won't kill it. Good luck!


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## flyfishsteve

.20 % "other crop"....not good


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## thegrassfactor

Multiple grassy weeds at play here: poa triv and Torpedo grass. Purple stems - torpedo. Torpedo probably came from your soil. It's vicious. Where are you located and what was the name of the distributor that sold you the soil? @critterdude311

Edit: see you're in Central Jersey. Could be another panicum variety other than torpedo


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## g-man

I thought of torpedo (Panicum repens) but he is in central new jersey and we are just out of a cold winter. Can it survive the winter? I was also thinking of a Paspalum, but again, surviving the winter.


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## Green

g-man said:


> I thought of torpedo (Panicum repens) but he is in central new jersey and we are just out of a cold winter. Can it survive the winter? I was also thinking of a Paspalum, but again, surviving the winter.


Some types of Paspalum definitely survive the Winter in CT, if that's any help. Northern NJ is similar in terms of weather. Also, there were mosquitoes trying to bite me this evening. I thought it was too early for them.


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## g-man

:thumbup: Learned something today.


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## SNOWBOB11

I'm thinking I might of found what it is. I was searching for torpedo grass and came across Jungle rice grass or Echinochloa Colona L. It's part of the poaceae family. Here's a link to something about it. https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/jungle-rice/


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## critterdude311

thegrassfactor said:


> Multiple grassy weeds at play here: poa triv and Torpedo grass. Purple stems - torpedo. Torpedo probably came from your soil. It's vicious. Where are you located and what was the name of the distributor that sold you the soil? @critterdude311
> 
> Edit: see you're in Central Jersey. Could be another panicum variety other than torpedo


The supplier I got the soil from was: https://theyardnj.com/
They have pretty good reviews. I'ved used them in the past without a problem, but I think in this case it's the most likely scenario. I ordered about 5 yards of the black gold top soil last year and spread it all over the side yard area (the area in question is about 5k SQFT)


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## critterdude311

thegrassfactor said:


> Multiple grassy weeds at play here: poa triv and Torpedo grass. Purple stems - torpedo. Torpedo probably came from your soil. It's vicious. Where are you located and what was the name of the distributor that sold you the soil? @critterdude311
> 
> Edit: see you're in Central Jersey. Could be another panicum variety other than torpedo


The supplier I got the soil from was: https://theyardnj.com/
They have pretty good reviews. I'ved used them in the past without a problem, but I think in this case it's the most likely scenario. I ordered about 5 yards of the black gold top soil last fall and spread it all over the side yard area (the area in question is about 5k SQFT total)


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## critterdude311

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I'm thinking I might of found what it is. I was searching for torpedo grass and came across Jungle rice grass or Echinochloa Colona L. It's part of the poaceae family. Here's a link to something about it. https://aggieturf.tamu.edu/turfgrass-weeds/jungle-rice/


Wow, this looks very similar. I think you and @thegrassfactor are on the right path. The two most likely candidates based on what I'm seeing and the descriptions are:

* Jungle Rice
* Fall Panicum

I'm just surprised how early it has popped up given the cooler temps we've had in the area. The highs have just started to creep in to the 60s here on a regular basis this past week. We had a few fluke days in the 80s two weeks ago, but then we were back down to 40s and 50s. It's just now getting in to the "real" spring here in Central Jersey.

That being said, the writeups for both seem to match what I'm seeing.

Now the question becomes, is there anything which can control Jungle Rice or Fall Panicum post-emergent without going nuclear?

Thanks again for everyones help on this, I really appreciate it.


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## SNOWBOB11

I was very interested in finding out what this weed was because before I renovated my lawn last year I had several clumps of what I swear is this exact weed. I thought it was triv but was never sure. It's not until I was searching torpedo grass that I came across the article about it. If it is jungle rice, I don't know how it ended up so far north into our areas. As far as I can see it looks like you'd have to go the round-up route to rid of it. I did see this product that says it controls several grassy weeds including jungle rice but not sure if you can get it or if it's not for home owner use. http://betterturf.basf.us/products/segment-ii-herbicide.html I'm thinking if you want it gone you're going to have to go with glyphosate unfortunately. I will say if it is the same thing as what I had it will only get worse the longer you leave it. The only thing that helped me was digging it out as much as I could. It's a really annoying weed to have to deal with. I don't see any of it this year so far after renovating and spraying the lawn with round-up last year so glyphosate should work.


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## g-man

I was searching too and I found a mention of Drive. The ai is quinclorac, which is used for crabgrass (Weed b gon + crabgrass). It seems like most of the info are for warmer areas. I would even be tempted to try tenacity before round up. Or just hand pull the bulk of it, before round up.

Multiple site called it a annual that spreads thru seeds, so if you see seeds, bag the clippings. It is most likely the topsoil you used had seeds that did not get killed during composting.


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## thegrassfactor

g-man said:


> I was searching too and I found a mention of Drive. The ai is quinclorac, which is used for crabgrass (Weed b gon + crabgrass). It seems like most of the info are for warmer areas. I would even be tempted to try tenacity before round up. Or just hand pull the bulk of it, before round up.
> 
> Multiple site called it a annual that spreads thru seeds, so if you see seeds, bag the clippings. It is most likely the topsoil you used had seeds that did not get killed during composting.


I would too - quinclorac and tenacity as a combined application may even be better. Two modes of action.

I thought this was pretty interesting:

https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/20368

Particularly this map, 


which shows central Jersey right in the range for Junglerice.

Even more interesting is that Junglerice can range through many different latin names.

Echinochloa, Panicum, etc.

Dismiss, tenacity, quinclorac would be a good starting point.


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## ericgautier

thegrassfactor said:


> Dismiss, tenacity, quinclorac would be a good starting point.


Thanks for the info! I have something similar and will try tenacity + quinclorac. :thumbup:


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## Jconnelly6b

I have the same looking stuff. Glypho'd the poa annua next to it, and then this sprouted up.

I pulled most of it by hand yesterday. It looks exactly like the pictures of jungle rice.


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## g-man

That does look similar. The only thing I see in the junglerice images is the purple stripes in the leafs. I would treat it the same way and see how it responds.

By the way, there is no need to glypho poa annua unless you think it is perennial. It normally dies in the summer heat. You could also use tenacity on it.


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## Jconnelly6b

g-man said:


> By the way, there is no need to glypho poa annua unless you think it is perennial. It normally dies in the summer heat. You could also use tenacity on it.


It was so thick it completely crowded out the good turf. I didn't do any pre-m last fall and had yet to learn about and identify the devil that is poa. I thought it was cool new KBG sprouting :evil:

I just seeded the bare spots left yesterday, if I didn't do anything I'm pretty sure after the poa dies from heat I would be left with dirt. I hate seeing dirt in the middle of turf.


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## critterdude311

thegrassfactor said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was searching too and I found a mention of Drive. The ai is quinclorac, which is used for crabgrass (Weed b gon + crabgrass). It seems like most of the info are for warmer areas. I would even be tempted to try tenacity before round up. Or just hand pull the bulk of it, before round up.
> 
> Multiple site called it a annual that spreads thru seeds, so if you see seeds, bag the clippings. It is most likely the topsoil you used had seeds that did not get killed during composting.
> 
> 
> 
> I would too - quinclorac and tenacity as a combined application may even be better. Two modes of action.
> 
> I thought this was pretty interesting:
> 
> https://www.cabi.org/isc/datasheet/20368
> 
> Particularly this map,
> 
> 
> which shows central Jersey right in the range for Junglerice.
> 
> Even more interesting is that Junglerice can range through many different latin names.
> 
> Echinochloa, Panicum, etc.
> 
> Dismiss, tenacity, quinclorac would be a good starting point.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the info guys. Very much appreciated. So many lessons learned here.

I'm going to start treating the contaminated areas with the tenacity + quinclorac. Hopefully it will get the job done. I don't currently have dismiss, but I'll see if I can Amazon prime it.

I'll post an update on the progress in a week or so. * Fingers crossed *


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## SNOWBOB11

Yes please do post an update on how things progress. I'm interested in if the mixture suggested will work.


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## Jconnelly6b

@critterdude311 look for Green Light - Wipe Out on Amazon. It's got the quinclorac at higher % than big box store items, but way less $ than the drive or professional stuff on there.

Works great on most weeds and crabgrass, not yet tried on this rice grass crap.


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## critterdude311

No official ID yet, but whatever it is, it started going to seed this weekend:





I'm kind of back in the poa triv or annual ryegrass camp.

I live about 15 minutes from Rutgers, so I plan on taking a sample plant to the Rutgers NJAES Ralph Geiger Turfgrass Education Center. They said they could do a full ID for 40 bucks. I'd gladly pay that for 100% certainty on the ID.

For what it's worth, I hit some spots of the side yard area with weed b gone + crabgrass control, and it definitely yellowed the stems of the plants I treated. They look on the verge of death. So whatever it is, it appears injured now after the treatment. I have an order of 'Drive' coming via Amazon, which I plan to spot treat with in the coming days.

Once I have an ID from Rutgers I will post back.


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## Jconnelly6b

Update:

If in fact the grass mentioned above is jungle rice, tenacity alone put a big whack on it. Bleaching after 2 weeks, and yellowing with no growth after 3. I hit it with another app this weekend so hoping it goes away quick.


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## Cincinnati guy

Looks like I have the same stuff growing in my lawn! Dang it! I had some top soil delivered and spread last fall. It seems to be concentrated in the same areas that I put dow the topsoil. Has anyone tried anything else besides tenacity? Seems a little pricy for me but if that's what I need that's what I'll get!


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## Jconnelly6b

If you have anything on hand with quinclorac in it (Weed B Gone + Crabgrass Control has it) you can give it a shot. Otherwise pick up some Tenacity, it seems to be nearly a necessity for grassy weeds.


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## g-man

Tenacity is $60 for the bottle, but it last years. Mine will likely go bad before I use it all. I'm at 3/4 full and it is around 3 years old.

I would try quinclorac (WBG + crabgrass preventer) or try hand pulling it.


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## Green

This thread is interesting, but confusing...

I'm no longer sure what grassy weed I have. I'm not sure if it's the same stuff as the photos in this thread or not. I'll have to post some photos.


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## stotea

I'm pretty sure I have the same stuff in my first-year reno as well. Brought in some topsoil at the time, too. I have yet to spray it with anything, but now I'm gonna plan on it soon.


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## Green

Hmm...I brought in a lot of topsoil, too...but it was a heck of a long time ago...we're talking 5 years ago. I highly doubt it came from that in my case.


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## critterdude311

Good news folks - I can add to the list who have used Drive (quinclorac) to treat this grassy weed with success. It took about 10 days to see results. The stems started falling over and turning very yellow at first, now they are brown and appear to be fully dead. I don't see any new signs of growth in the areas I spot treated. I plan on treating the remainder of the areas this weekend.

Thank you guys so much for the recommendation, I feel a huge relief. Definitely dodged a bullet on this one.

Only thing left to do is get the results from Rutgers on exactly what weed this is. I will post back when I have a definite answer from them. Thanks again for all the help!


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## SNOWBOB11

Good to hear this worked out for you.


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## kolbasz

critterdude311 said:


> Good news folks - I can add to the list who have used Drive (quinclorac) to treat this grassy weed with success. It took about 10 days to see results. The stems started falling over and turning very yellow at first, now they are brown and appear to be fully dead. I don't see any new signs of growth in the areas I spot treated. I plan on treating the remainder of the areas this weekend.
> 
> Thank you guys so much for the recommendation, I feel a huge relief. Definitely dodged a bullet on this one.
> 
> Only thing left to do is get the results from Rutgers on exactly what weed this is. I will post back when I have a definite answer from them. Thanks again for all the help!


Did you use the Branded Drive, a generic of it or straight quinclorac 75


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## Jconnelly6b

@critterdude311 where are you in central NJ? I'm in outskirts of New Brunswick.


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## critterdude311

I live in Piscataway, I'm about a 10 minute drive from the Rutgers football stadium. We are basically neighbors :thumbup:


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## critterdude311

kolbasz said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good news folks - I can add to the list who have used Drive (quinclorac) to treat this grassy weed with success. It took about 10 days to see results. The stems started falling over and turning very yellow at first, now they are brown and appear to be fully dead. I don't see any new signs of growth in the areas I spot treated. I plan on treating the remainder of the areas this weekend.
> 
> Thank you guys so much for the recommendation, I feel a huge relief. Definitely dodged a bullet on this one.
> 
> Only thing left to do is get the results from Rutgers on exactly what weed this is. I will post back when I have a definite answer from them. Thanks again for all the help!
> 
> 
> 
> Did you use the Branded Drive, a generic of it or straight quinclorac 75
Click to expand...

First spot treatments were with Weed B Gone + CGC, second treatment was with Drive which I got off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0058W42QS/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

In hindsight, ordering Drive was probably overkill, but I was paranoid when this stuff started popping up. It grew very aggressively in the early Spring.

Funny thing is, I can't find it anywhere in my yard now. I've been actively looking for a sample to bring to Rutgers for official ID. I guess this is a good problem to have. So either the applications of quinclorac completely eradicated it, or it has died off with warming temps or some combination.

If I see it early next Spring, my plan is to bring a sample plant to Rutgers for official plant ID so we know for sure going forward.


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## Richie0320

@critterdude311 did you have any pop up in your yard this spring? I had the same pop up for the first time in mine this year and it's very weird. I sprayed a Triclopyr & Trimec Classic mixture over the yard and it seems to have affected some of the junglerice but not all, may half of it. I ordered some Quinclorac and have a little tenacity I'm going to spot spray on it to see what happens. The stalks that come off are so obtrusive and annoying in the lawn!


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## Tc200

@Richie0320 I just noticed a weed very similar to this in different patches throughout my front and back lawn where I seeded with Scott's last year. Lowes happened to have all of their spectracide products for crabgrass for 5$ so I picked up a bottle with Sulfentrazone at lunch and will hit it with that tonight. Anyone who had it previously have any other tips? I originally thought it was a sedge hence the sulfentrazone but it seems if it is Jungle Rice the quinclorac would be the correct herbicide. Maybe I will spray different areas with different AI and see what works best.


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## jht3

did we ever get a name for this stuff?

I have the same weedy grass in my yard, and had it last spring too but not nearly as bad. only in a spot in the front last year, now it has grown and is in the back, side, etc. pretty sure I remember it dieing off on its own last year once the heat rolled in; leaving some bare spots I heavily overseeded in fall. with our tough fall weather, that didn't go well.

sprayed it with WBG for crabgrass, but it started raining shortly after I sprayed it down so I think that was a waste. i also have Poa Annua in the yard, so I hope to blanket spray the yard at the 4oz/acre rate this weekend, but rain is forecast. Then weekly follow ups at the 2oz rate.

pics:


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## g-man

I see POA a and I can't believe I'm going to say junglerice again today. It is not that common, but you are the second one today. The second image shows the POA a with the seed heads.


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## critterdude311

jht3 said:


> did we ever get a name for this stuff?
> 
> I have the same weedy grass in my yard, and had it last spring too but not nearly as bad. only in a spot in the front last year, now it has grown and is in the back, side, etc. pretty sure I remember it dieing off on its own last year once the heat rolled in; leaving some bare spots I heavily overseeded in fall. with our tough fall weather, that didn't go well.
> 
> sprayed it with WBG for crabgrass, but it started raining shortly after I sprayed it down so I think that was a waste. i also have Poa Annua in the yard, so I hope to blanket spray the yard at the 4oz/acre rate this weekend, but rain is forecast. Then weekly follow ups at the 2oz rate.
> 
> pics:





Richie0320 said:


> @critterdude311 did you have any pop up in your yard this spring? I had the same pop up for the first time in mine this year and it's very weird. I sprayed a Triclopyr & Trimec Classic mixture over the yard and it seems to have affected some of the junglerice but not all, may half of it. I ordered some Quinclorac and have a little tenacity I'm going to spot spray on it to see what happens. The stalks that come off are so obtrusive and annoying in the lawn!


Yes, it came back again this year, though thankfully not quite as bad as last year. I've taken some notes this year to help get a better identification: 
* folded vernation
* lacks clasping auricles
* mid-rib
* lime green / yellow color
* tends to grow horizontally (out) and then upward
* no stolons or rhizomes detected

I was hoping just annual rye grass, but the lack of clasping auricles and the folded vernation rules that out. I thought then, well, maybe it is Poa Triv, but it has stronger than expected rooting. I have to go a few inches in to the soil to get the fibrous roots out. I can't find anything which resemble stolons either, which makes me think it is NOT triv.

Given those characteristics, the consensus seems to be junglerice or orchardgrass, but I'm just not sure quite exactly what it is. My understanding is junglerice is a summer annual, so I don't know why this would be growing vigorously now. Also, whatever this is exactly, it didn't seem to like the combination of WeedBGone + CCO + Drive + warm weather. A summer annual would thrive in heat, no?

It's driving me mad and I'm sure the neighbors think I've lost my mind when I am out there pulling it. As far as stopping it next year, I'm in a bit of a pickle because I have primarily TTTF which needs to get overseeded in to this area. If I don't pre-emerge, it's unlikely I'll be able to stop whatever this is from coming back. I might just bite the bullet and skip overseeding this fall and pre-emerge the entire area to limit it even further next spring. In the mean time, it's hand pulling, and spraying :roll:

PS: Sorry for all the edits on this post, I'm having trouble with the formatting in the post editor!


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## 440mag

Did you ever get a definitive back from Rutgers? (Cool that you live so close to such an august institution!)

I ask as ... Yikes, looks like I might be falling in your footsteps!

Ach! I thought I had quinclorac on hand but, I am mistaken; gonna have to budget for a 1/2 gal ...


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## Richie0320

@critterdude311 That was my plan of action this year. I figured I was going to go hard after the weeds this year and do a full year of pre-m, then in fall 2020 go back to the over seeding.I have a couple good areas of poa & now this PIA jungle rice so figured it would be worth it to go full force on it than let it continue.


----------



## Mwhal2

Hey Critterdude,
I just noticed it in my yard this year and I live in Green Brook, plan on hitting it with Tenacity as I don't have anything else. Only have it in one spot but of course is right in the middle of my front yard.


----------



## critterdude311

Mwhal2 said:


> Hey Critterdude,
> I just noticed it in my yard this year and I live in Green Brook, plan on hitting it with Tenacity as I don't have anything else. Only have it in one spot but of course is right in the middle of my front yard.


Hi neighbor, Green Brook is in my backyard!

If you've only got a few spots of it, I would recommend a spraying / digging combo. Come back in the late summer / early fall and hit the area with a pre-emergent if at all possible.


----------



## critterdude311

440mag said:


> Did you ever get a definitive back from Rutgers? (Cool that you live so close to such an august institution!)
> 
> I ask as ... Yikes, looks like I might be falling in your footsteps!
> 
> Luckily, on advice of Suburban Jungle Life I HAVE Tenacity AND Quinlorac (sp?) ON HAND - yay! (snoopy dance


Unfortunately, no, when I went to collect samples near the end of spring / early summer last year it had all but disappeared. In hindsight, I'm not entirely sure if it was the weed killer or the heat which caused it to kick the bucket, but by that point, I couldn't find samples of it anymore.

I'm off from work next Thursday (4/18), so I'll take some samples to Rutgers to see if they can ID it.


----------



## Richie0320

@critterdude311 Come down to eastern shore of Maryland, this stuff is everywhere! I don't remember it being this bad last year in everyone's lawns.


----------



## jht3

g-man said:


> I see POA a and I can't believe I'm going to say junglerice again today. It is not that common, but you are the second one today. The second image shows the POA a with the seed heads.


yes, poa annua is right next to this stuff and elsewhere. i thought i only had poa a to battle now this stuff is taking over.

while we don't have 100% confirmation on what this is, this stuff is everywhere. I even see it in the grass strip outside my daughter's gymnastics gym....yes i'm the weird guy inspecting weeds in common areas :lol:

i think its too late this year for a kill before it goes to seed (it already has) but i'm going to use Tenacity to combat this and the poa a if it would just stop raining everytime i'm free. then forgo a fall overseed for prodiamine and selective herbicides. i weighed fall pre-e last fall, but flipped a coin and did an overseed + tenacity. it didn't work out as the weather was rough in the fall and all the weeds are back worse than ever.


----------



## g-man

In interested to know if tenacity kills. In the conversation last year we were not sure.


----------



## Powhatan

Looks like I've mistaken these junglerice all over the yard for poa triv. I've been hitting them with Dr. Earth and Roudup and appears to be killing them, sometimes takes a 2nd spray. I wonder if pulling up by the roots would be acceptable eradication method.


----------



## critterdude311

Powhatan said:


> Looks like I've mistaken these junglerice all over the yard for poa triv. I've been hitting them with Dr. Earth and Roudup and appears to be killing them, sometimes takes a 2nd spray. I wonder if pulling up by the roots would be acceptable eradication method.


I think Poa Triv is definitely still a possibility, and in some cases since they look so similar some of the reports on this thread could definitely be triv. The thing I come back to in my case is I don't see any stolons when I examine the plants. It all popped up at once in my yard last year whereas I think triv would spread over several years via stoloniferous growth habbit. When you examine the plants do you see stolons?


----------



## g-man

@Powhatan I don't think that is POA t. It looks like what we are calling junglerice. That middle purple stem seems to be the common characteristic.

Since you are further south, do you see seed heads? To help id it better.


----------



## Powhatan

critterdude311 said:


> I think Poa Triv is definitely still a possibility, and in some cases since they look so similar some of the reports on this thread could definitely be triv. The thing I come back to in my case is I don't see any stolons when I examine the plants. It all popped up at once in my yard last year whereas I think triv would spread over several years via stoloniferous growth habbit. When you examine the plants do you see stolons?


No stolons that I can tell. The clumps are typically near to each other. I notice the lower tillers/rhizomes surface from the soil a few inches away from the crown. I wonder if that's how the plant is spreading.

Here's a tiller surfacing.



Edit:


----------



## Jconnelly6b

Didn't read all the posts do sorry guys.....

Tenacity + Quinclorac is the recipe for these. Don't wait around for anything else.


----------



## Powhatan

g-man said:


> @Powhatan I don't think that is POA t. It looks like what we are calling junglerice. That middle purple stem seems to be the common characteristic.
> 
> Since you are further south, do you see seed heads? To help id it better.


No seed heads, but there are clumps that are thinning out that I haven't sprayed yet. I'm guessing they are going dormant.

Edit: This seed head below is debunked, it's a foxtail weed.


----------



## Powhatan

Went looking for more seed heads but none seen. I guess these buggers are loving the abundant tree pollen cause I noticed plenty of new erect growth stalks. It's like an epidemic, yikes.


----------



## Powhatan

Jconnelly6b said:


> Didn't read all the posts do sorry guys.....
> 
> Tenacity + Quinclorac is the recipe for these. Don't wait around for anything else.


Would this be a good RTS product to use? It has quinclorac.

*Bayer Advanced All-In-One Lawn Weed and Crabgrass Killer*

https://www.domyown.com/bayer-advanced-allinone-lawn-weed-and-crabgrass-killer-rts-p-2655.html


----------



## Jconnelly6b

@Powhatan I see pretty low concentration of quinclorac there, and no mesotrione.

If you have it on hand, worth a shot.

My experience last year and again in one spot this year was Tenacity + Quinclorac and it's lights out.

I used "Wipe Out" found on amazon (which is a great all purpose weed killer) mixed with Tenacity and that ricegrass was gone withing 5 days.


----------



## craigdt

Wow this is a great thread, full of awesome info.

I've got some little grasy plants germinating that have the purple stalks, but can't imagine it would be the jungle rice you guys have back East.


----------



## critterdude311

Jconnelly6b said:


> @Powhatan I see pretty low concentration of quinclorac there, and no mesotrione.
> 
> If you have it on hand, worth a shot.
> 
> My experience last year and again in one spot this year was Tenacity + Quinclorac and it's lights out.
> 
> I used "Wipe Out" found on amazon (which is a great all purpose weed killer) mixed with Tenacity and that ricegrass was gone withing 5 days.


I hit an area of it today with quite the little cocktail as per Jconnelly6b's recommendation:
* tenacity -- 0.5 tsp / gallon 
* GreenLight Wipe Out (Quinclorac) -- 2 fl. oz / gallon
* MSO -- 1.5 fl oz / gallon
* Blue Mark it -- 1.5 fl oz / gallon

I'll let you guys know if it puts a dent in it. We should see results in a week or so if it works. I left a control area untouched for comparison and so I can take samples to RU later in the week for ID. In the meantime, fingers are crossed.


----------



## sam

Interested in the ID. I see this stuff everywhere now


----------



## outdoorsmen

Is this the stuff you guys are talking about?
Egg hunt at a church and I was hunting for weeds.


----------



## Powhatan

outdoorsmen said:


> Is this the stuff you guys are talking about?
> Egg hunt at a church and I was hunting for weeds.


Appears to be Orchardgrass.


----------



## Jconnelly6b

4 weeks to the day after the below:

App 1 - Tenacity 0.5 tsp/gal
App 2 - Tenacity 0.5 tsp/gal 
App 3 - Tenacity 0.5tsp/gal + Wipe Out

Majority of the damage was after I threw in the Wipe Out with the Tenacity


----------



## 440mag

Excellent pics, thanks!

Q - is that spot spraying or, are you doing wider areas? I guess a followup question is: is that Tenacity / Wipeout mix still "selective"? That is, non-injurious to the good, desirable, fescue?


----------



## Jconnelly6b

440mag said:


> Excellent pics, thanks!
> 
> Q - is that spot spraying or, are you doing wider areas? I guess a followup question is: is that Tenacity / Wipeout mix still "selective"? That is, non-injurious to the good, desirable, fescue?


I'm spraying anything that looks questionable. No damage so far to anything desirable. A little bleaching but that's normal with tenacity.


----------



## outdoorsmen

I just read that wipe out 450 is non selective


----------



## Powhatan

If the selective quinclorac doesn't kill the junglerice, non-selective glyphosate will. Make sure to spray several inches away from the center to get the the outer blades.



Seed heads - I think this is a junglerice clump, it looks a lot smaller that what I've been seeing, but it has the distinctive maroon stem colors. Almost looks like smooth crabgrass.


----------



## Bencosey

These are mine im not seeing the purple so jungle rice is out. They seam to be spread throughout my front and back. Neighbor just put in Bermuda and I see one or 2 coming up between the cracks. Any ideas out there.


----------



## Powhatan

@Bencosey that might be barnyardgrass.


----------



## Richie0320

For the junglerice has anyone used Fusilade on it with any luck? I bought quinclorac for it but since I have found quite a bit of orchard grass now too I was thinking of going with Fusilade instead of quinclorac


----------



## g-man

Check the label. I think it is listed, so it is worth the try.


----------



## Richie0320

g-man said:


> Check the label. I think it is listed, so it is worth the try.


I see the junglerice on there @g-man but when you mentioned it controlled orchard grass too but I don't see that on there.

Edit: :? I'm so confused now, I looked at the Fusilade II label and it didn't show orhcard grass in the controlled grassy weeds but when you go to the syngenta website it say's it there. -_-


----------



## g-man

I asked Matt, he said no. Quackgrass yes, orchardgrass no. I had that wrong.


----------



## g-man

@Richie0320 ^


----------



## Richie0320

@g-man This is straight off the syngenta website. So I'm guessing that I will just swap out the quinclorac for the Fusilade, a little more expensive and do an experiment on the control of orchard grass with it. It doesn't seem to have any other information anywhere on orchard grass control other than that one paragraph.


----------



## Mozart

This was previously identified as jungle rice but I am not sure if that is correct.

The leaves are boat shaped, not flat.

There is a prominent ligule. No purple striping noted.

The tillers creep along the ground and pop up, but I didn't notice roots growing along the tillers (like zoysia for example).

I also noticed some of the leaves are wrinkled a little bit like poa annua, but the growth is much more vigorous than I would expect from poa annua.

Given the above details and the additional photos below, any idea what this is? I am concerned it might be poa trivialis...


----------



## Green

Add me to the list of people with a Jungle Rice grass infestation...








The name sounds like a joke, but I assure anyone this stuff is for real!
I wonder why so many of us have it. What did everyone have in common (e.g. type of seed used)?


----------



## Powhatan

@Mozart if you don't cut it a seed head might appear for further identification.


----------



## Mozart

Powhatan said:


> @Mozart if you don't cut it a seed head might appear for further identification.


Thanks, I did notice seed heads starting to come out of the very tallest of the tillers - maybe 5-6 inches tall. Maybe not helpful, but here is a picture from a few pages ago showing the seedhead about to pop out.


----------



## njlawner

@Mozart I believe that is Poa Trivialis, I have a lot of it all over my yard, suddenly popped up in the fall. The seed head for Poa T looks different then jungle rice (but they both have the maroon stem):

Poa T:
https://weedid.cals.vt.edu/weedimg/620
Jungle Rice:
http://integratedweedmanagement.org/index.php/search-weeds/junglerice/

I hit all the areas that had similar looking lime green with glypho, and made sure to hand pull the seed heads just to try to control it from spreading more.


----------



## Mozart

njlawner said:


> @Mozart I believe that is Poa Trivialis, I have a lot of it all over my yard, suddenly popped up in the fall. The seed head for Poa T looks different then jungle rice (but they both have the maroon stem):
> 
> Poa T:
> https://weedid.cals.vt.edu/weedimg/620
> Jungle Rice:
> http://integratedweedmanagement.org/index.php/search-weeds/junglerice/
> 
> I hit all the areas that had similar looking lime green with glypho, and made sure to hand pull the seed heads just to try to control it from spreading more.


Thank you. Yes I think this is triv. Thanks to Scott's brand soil 

Only in my renovation areas, some areas worse than others (maybe only several bags infected).


----------



## Powhatan

Now I'm confused. I thought poa t was supposed to have stolons, I don't see that on the clumps as far as I can tell.


----------



## Mozart

Powhatan said:


> Now I'm confused. I thought poa t was supposed to have stolons, I don't see that on the clumps as far as I can tell.


I think this is first year poa triv, it is trying to establish itself. There are no stolons per se but The tillers are creeping outward... definitely boat shaped tip and the seed head was only starting to protrude but did look like what you posted


----------



## g-man

@Mozart @Powhatan @njlawner

I moved the conversation to this thread to keep it consistent. I am confused too. I've never seen poa t like the ones in the VT report.

Purdue: https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-41-W.pdf
more from Purdue: http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2014/11/weed-of-month-for-november-2014-is.html
UNL: https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/Properennialgrassyweedcontrol2012b.pdf
NC state: https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/grasses/rough-bluegrass/

Video from PSU:





We called it junglerice because that's the closest we could id it to. I think someone was going to take it to a univ for proper id.


----------



## Tc200

Mozart said:


> Powhatan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Now I'm confused. I thought poa t was supposed to have stolons, I don't see that on the clumps as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this is first year poa triv, it is trying to establish itself. There are no stolons per se but The tillers are creeping outward... definitely boat shaped tip and the seed head was only starting to protrude but did look like what you posted
Click to expand...

Hm interesting observation, I hit this with a 3way with quinclorac, but didn't do much, maybe a little yellowing but growing with abandon again. Just painted as much as I could with gly, we will see if it worked mixed 2 tbsp with baby shampoo and 1/2 cup of water.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Mozart Powhatan njlawner
> 
> I moved the conversation to this thread to keep it consistent. I am confused too. I've never seen poa t like the ones in the VT report.
> 
> Purdue: https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-41-W.pdf
> more from Purdue: http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2014/11/weed-of-month-for-november-2014-is.html
> UNL: https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/Properennialgrassyweedcontrol2012b.pdf
> NC state: https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/grasses/rough-bluegrass/
> 
> Video from PSU:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We called it junglerice because that's the closest we could id it to. I think someone was going to take it to a univ for proper id.


@g-man, I don't think it's Triv, either. The gross morphology is totally different. I have actual Triv, too, and it appears to look different enough that I'd call them separate species (unless it's a different phenotype). I dare say, I wonder if VT is wrong in calling it Triv.

That said, when I Google for pics of jungle rice, it doesn't look the same as what we all have. Also, if Junglerice is a Summer annual, C4 grass, there is no way we could have it right now.

I think this mystery grass may be a Poa species after all, but not the one(s) we think it is. I have one possible contender at the moment; see my journal if you'd like for that. All we need to do, is go through as many Poa species as possible to try to figure out which one it is.

Also, did everyone who has it use KBG seed?


----------



## Green

Guys,

Check out my photo:









Who thinks this looks a lot like:








-Not my photo, but who thinks they look very similar?


----------



## g-man

I think it will be good to take proper images of all the features. Tip, collar, auricles, ligule, ...

More features here. http://turfid.ncsu.edu/ItemID.aspx?orderID=GR&orderDesc=Grass

I can't be of much help since I don't have it. Also, while the id is instering, I'm pretty sure round up will take care of it. (Paralysis by analysis).


----------



## toufu

Newbie here. I started seeing similar light green grass popping up too. It has sort of reddish stem and the root is shallow. 
Some background: I added topsoil and did overseeding last fall, and I didn't know TLF or tenacity (big mistake). I got this thing everywhere in my lawn now  .

Is it the same as the JungleRice in this post? Thank you.


----------



## Green

toufu said:


> Newbie here. I started seeing similar light green grass popping up too. It has sort of reddish stem and the root is shallow.
> Some background: I added topsoil and did overseeding last fall, and I didn't know TLF or tenacity (big mistake). I got this thing everywhere in my lawn now  .
> 
> Is it the same as the JungleRice in this post? Thank you.


That looks different.


----------



## njlawner

@Green now I'm confused as well. I have an almost 5x15 section of my backyard that has the same grass mentioned by @Mozart as well as some clumps appearing throughout my yard. I overseed last year with bluegrass blend from sss last fall. Then this large pale green area popped up. The roots are very densely packed but it's also not easy to pull up. I wonder if it may be some new hybrid species of grass.


----------



## Green

@Jconnelly6b, did you actually kill this stuff selectively?


----------



## njlawner

@Green now I'm confused as well. I have an almost 5x15 section of my backyard that has the same grass mentioned by @Mozart as well as some clumps appearing throughout my yard. I overseed last year with bluegrass blend from sss last fall. Then this large pale green area popped up. The roots are very densely packed but it's also not easy to pull up. I wonder if it may be some new hybrid species of grass.


----------



## Green

njlawner said:


> @Green now I'm confused as well. I have an almost 5x15 section of my backyard that has the same grass mentioned by @Mozart as well as some clumps appearing throughout my yard. I overseed last year with bluegrass blend from sss last fall. Then this large pale green area popped up. The roots are very densely packed but it's also not easy to pull up. I wonder if it may be some new hybrid species of grass.


See the last few posts in my journal. Also, let me know if that photo I posted does or doesn't look similar to you.


----------



## Green

*Question for everyone:*

If you have this grass, did you seed with KBG? Pick one:
-Yes
-No


----------



## toufu

Green said:


> toufu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Newbie here. I started seeing similar light green grass popping up too. It has sort of reddish stem and the root is shallow.
> Some background: I added topsoil and did overseeding last fall, and I didn't know TLF or tenacity (big mistake). I got this thing everywhere in my lawn now  .
> 
> Is it the same as the JungleRice in this post? Thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks different.
Click to expand...

Thanks @Green ! Do you have any idea what this grass might be?


----------



## Green

toufu said:


> Thanks Green ! Do you have any idea what this grass might be?


Possibly some sort of field grass/cereal grain grass, like Timothy, Oat, Wheat, or even Corn...
Common if you've used straw when seeding.


----------



## njlawner

@Green let me get a closer look in the morning and post a few more pictures. I still have a few patches remaining.


----------



## Green

njlawner said:


> @Green let me get a closer look in the morning and post a few more pictures. I still have a few patches remaining.


Ok. What about my photo versus the stock photo under it, in the meantime? (A few posts above)
Do you think they look alike?


----------



## toufu

Green said:


> toufu said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Green ! Do you have any idea what this grass might be?
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly some sort of field grass/cereal grain grass, like Timothy, Oat, Wheat, or even Corn...
> Common if you've used straw when seeding.
Click to expand...

Thank you, @Green ! You are right. I used ez-straw from lowes. So, do I need to use herbicide or it will just die after summer?


----------



## njlawner

@Green the pictures do look like they match. The sheath and blades look almost identical.


----------



## njlawner

@toufu I have that as well from using hay to cover my grass seed in some bare areas last season. I've been hand pulling what I see.


----------



## Green

njlawner said:


> @Green the pictures do look like they match. The sheath and blades look almost identical.


That photo is _Poa anceps_. So far, it's the best contender. I've looked at photos of about 15 Poa species so far...


----------



## Green

njlawner said:


> @toufu I have that as well from using hay to cover my grass seed in some bare areas last season. I've been hand pulling what I see.


Quick aside from the main topic: Yup. Hand pull those ones. I had what I believe was Timothy, also from straw. I've pulled probably 1000 of them over the years. Almost gone now. Don't see any this year yet.


----------



## toufu

Green said:


> njlawner said:
> 
> 
> 
> @toufu I have that as well from using hay to cover my grass seed in some bare areas last season. I've been hand pulling what I see.
> 
> 
> 
> Quick aside from the main topic: Yup. Hand pull those ones. I had what I believe was Timothy, also from straw. I've pulled probably 1000 of them over the years. Almost gone now. Don't see any this year yet.
Click to expand...

Thanks @Green and @njlawner.


----------



## Mozart

Very interesting..

I seeded last fall with seed superstore's SS1100.

So did my next door neighbor...

I didn't use stray/hay, just topsoil and pear moss. I don't think my neighbor used straw either (he did aerate)

At first I thought it was due to the Scott's brand dirt that I purchased at Home Depot. But when I saw my next door neighbor having the same problem...

Is it possible that the seed is contaminated? It would seem that we are the only ones in the neighborhood with this problem... we ordered separate bags from SSS.

It can't be KBG because of the ligule, correct?

Here are some pictures I took of his, which were close to 12" tall already..





Here are pictures from my yard, to put the color in perspective with the new seed:


----------



## Green

@Mozart, I used KBG seed, too. I wonder if others did as well. If it ends up being Poa anceps, I won't be surprised, since it's probably hard to filter out other Poa seeds. I once had a Poa bulbosa infestation. Thankfully that one was taken care of by hand pulling. That's not an option for this one...they don't pull out. And I have so much of this (as well as Triv) that I'm hoping glyphosate is not the only answer. Painting them all would take hours.

I did order Quinclorac, and if @Jconnelly6b truly had luck killing this stuff with it, I'll give it a try. But I also don't want to waste time either.

All I know is, this is not Triv, unless it's a subspecies of it that looks different.

Who wants to submit a sample to a lab for analysis?


----------



## Green

@Mozart, looks like you have a seedhead! That could really help ID it!
Does it look like a "Poa" style seedhead to you?


----------



## Green

Another idea to consider...

If it is Poa Trivialis, maybe it's a "pasture type", as opposed to a "turf type" and that's the difference we're seeing...?


----------



## FuzzeWuzze

I've had this grass infest and all but ruin my back yard, so much so that i'm pretty convinced ill just have to glypho this fall, it started actually growing back in late summer of 18, and kept going all winter and snuffed out a large portion of my back yard. I'm experimenting with Tenacity on it since i have it and it seems to be working, after my 2nd app of Tenacity a week apart i ran my dethatcher over it and a lot of it ripped out very easily, i reseeded new Rye and hoping with it cut short + tenacity that the new rye will come in and push it out. If not it all dies come August.

FWIW, this only started happening after i started experimenting mowing low, like 1". The yard looked amazing mowed low, but i suspect it allowed this crap to wake up. There is absolutely no seedheads, i have Annua in a few other spots that do. I'd really like to know if its Triv, or what it is. FWIW we dont get cold winters here, we had snow for a few days but its almost always above freezing.

End of June 2018, looking at this you can see a bit of it popping up, but very tiny and i didnt think much of itg.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z6n6049crru7elv/2018-06-17%2018.41.52.jpg

We were out of country so i didnt have a lot of time to deal with the yard when i got back, this is it by the end of October
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6vpfcn0jgpyjdry/2018-10-31%2008.08.15.jpg

This is the section you see on the left of the second picture now looks like this
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvqaf18wpf40qv6/20190421_112004.jpg

Needless to say i am not very happy.

A few other close up shots, i can spot no stolons, it goes straight into the ground.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dsjiirx375v4pvh/2019-04-21%2011.20.09.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/pfz603vucq5qjwr/2019-04-21%2011.20.36.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1pu1h6v84ru3uop/2019-04-21%2011.20.52.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/k2211sth4951d35/2019-04-21%2011.24.08.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/53433bv11ogrfzg/2019-04-21%2011.24.13.jpg?dl=0


----------



## Jconnelly6b

Green said:


> @Jconnelly6b, did you actually kill this stuff selectively?


To be honest you've got me thinking I may have painted it with gly once, I can't remeber if that was this year or last year.

I know I sprayed it 4 Saturday's in a row with Tenacity, and the 3rd app I added full strength Wipe Out which includes Quinclorac, and 5 days later it was crispy.

I seeded last fall, but did not use KBG or SSS, I used Hogans TTTF Blend.


----------



## Powhatan

I'm calling it *poa arcanum* - poa mysterious

Here's the weed in question that I first noticed in early spring 2018. The previous fall I put down Southern Belle turf-type tall fescue mixed with hybrid bluegrass - certified blue tag. The proliferation of this weed in my back yard is much noticeable worse spring 2019 compared to 2018. Last fall I mechanically aerated so I'm guessing that made this spread even faster.

Edit: I confirmed with my neighbor, he put down Southern Belle turf-type tall fescue certified blue tag also in fall 2017 (no hybrid bluegrass) and does not see any purplish weed grass - poa trivilias. So there's a high degree that the poa triv I have came from a seed contaminate.

*poa arcanum*​
Feb 2018

Might be young poa trivialis?





Mar 2018

Single mystery clump in bottom with established grass and new grass coming up. If this is poa trivialis I don't see stolons in this picture.


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## Mozart

I currently have access to the baby and adult version of this mystery plant and today I did my best to take high quality photos to help identify. We are in Northern NJ.

I believe my neighbor fertilized a few weeks ago (I did just yesterday) hence his weed is "adult" and the ones in my yard are "babies".

If I missed any identifying features let me know - I will try to get samples before neighbor mows.

First notice how tall this is compared to the surrounding grass. It's *extremely stalky*, almost like mini bamboo:





I plucked a sample from his yard. For perspective this is an 8.5" x 11" paper:



Close up of the seedhead:





No auricles:



Collar - seems to be a _paralell single purple stripe?_



Ligule:



Crown:



Additional seed head photos:


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## Tc200

Well there you go ... https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9097

https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192 ... image is exactly what I have, guess it is triv.

Now, here is the question, obviously glyphosate is the answer, but I already put down pre-m, so how do I repair the areas? My grass is a no-mix and the triv patches are sizable so it will not fill in like elite KBG. Options I can see are 1) skip fall over-seed and get pre-m down in august, then kill and seed patches in spring, 2) renovation with meso at seed down and then pre-m, 3) kill it now and sod, any other thoughts?


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## Mozart

I personally also think it is triv, here is a baby version of the plant from my yard:


It's just so strange that I only see it in my yard and my neighbor's... I don't believe he brought in dirt for his overseed but he did use the exact same (certified weed free) seed mix.

It is strange though that the root system is so dense; it is not easy to rip up like I thought triv would be. And it stands over a foot tall, about 2-3x taller than KBG/fescue.


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## Powhatan

It appears William Curtis painted in 1777 what we're still seeing 200+ years later. I wonder about the missing stolons, guess they are rhizomes.


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## njlawner

Here are a couple of close up shots from a patch I found this morning. Looks exactly like yours @Mozart.


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## Mozart

Powhatan said:


> It appears William Curtis painted in 1777 what we're still seeing 200+ years later. I wonder about the missing stolons, guess they are rhizomes.


Is that a poa trivialis drawing? I'm still amazed how different this looks than I imagined triv would look from online research!


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## Powhatan

Mozart said:


> Is that a poa trivialis drawing? I'm still amazed how different this looks than I imagined triv would look from online research!


It's written Poa Trivialis on the bottom. Yeah, I agree it looks different in person. It's that dang climate change. :airquote:


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## Mozart

Haha oops. I missed the script text. Dang, this is not how I wanted to start this season


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## Mrotatori

@Mozart I ordered from Seed Superstore last year too for my fall reno of mixed kbg. I did not order the same type of kbg as you. I was wondering if it was contaminated seed too. However, I saw the same type of weed/grass in a non-reno area. The below images are from my reno, but the same type grew in another area.


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## maynardGkeynes

Japanese Siltgrass?


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## Green

maynardGkeynes said:


> Japanese Siltgrass?


Definitely not. Stiltgrass looks more like a plant, with leaves instead of blades.


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## Green

Mrotatori said:


> @Mozart I ordered from Seed Superstore last year too for my fall reno of mixed kbg. I did not order the same type of kbg as you. I was wondering if it was contaminated seed too. However, I saw the same type of weed/grass in a non-reno area. The below images are from my reno, but the same type grew in another area.


That one looks like Poa Bulbosa to me.


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## Green

Powhatan said:


> It appears William Curtis painted in 1777 what we're still seeing 200+ years later. I wonder about the missing stolons, guess they are rhizomes.


Dang. If it's Triv, there are apparently different biotypes. These look like a pasture type; other specimens I have look like turf types. They're much smaller, don't have the stalkiness or red color, and have a lot more blades, which are much finer.

I am going to send some of the large/red type out on Monday if at all possible, to my local extension for an ID. But it'll likely take a few weeks to get the results back. Anyone else want to send some out to be ID'd, too?


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## Green

I think these pics many have been posting still look like:
http://nzpcn.org.nz/flora_details.aspx?ID=1150

But if it's Anceps, how did it get into US seed fields?


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## Mozart

For what it's worth, I've had some success pulling these with a forked dandelion puller. This seems to work in the early stages, I don't have roots along the creeping tillers. Might not work if I let it grow. Important to get the whole "bunch"


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## Green

Jconnelly6b said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Jconnelly6b, did you actually kill this stuff selectively?
> 
> 
> 
> To be honest you've got me thinking I may have painted it with gly once, I can't remeber if that was this year or last year.
> 
> I know I sprayed it 4 Saturday's in a row with Tenacity, and the 3rd app I added full strength Wipe Out which includes Quinclorac, and 5 days later it was crispy. I seeded last fall, but did not use KBG or SSS, I used Hogans TTTF Blend.
Click to expand...

@Jconnelly6b what were your exact rates for Tenacity and WipOut? I have WipeOut but just ordered pure Quinclorac so I can reseed after. Really hope the combo kills some of this grass so I don't have to use glyphosate everywhere (I can't anyway since a lot is intermingled).

Also, are you sure it's dead permanently yet?


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## Jconnelly6b

@Green rates below per gallon

0.5 tsp Tenacity
2 oz Wipe Out
1 oz NIS
1 TBS AMS

I'll get a picture this evening. It's dead dead.


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## Clover13

A few pics of my lawn taken yesterday.

1. What is the purple like grass clumps? They seem to have sprawled up in a number of places and don't recall seeing them before.

2. Is the color variation and indicator of different grass types, otherwise why is the lawn so blotchy?


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## rkorsen

Did you ever get an ID on this weedy grass ? A friend's KBG lawn has been invaded. I believe the deer droppings are the source. All the characteristics of orchard grass are met.

South Plainfield resident


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## Green

Jconnelly6b said:


> @Green rates below per gallon
> 
> 0.5 tsp Tenacity
> 2 oz Wipe Out
> 1 oz NIS
> 1 TBS AMS
> 
> I'll get a picture this evening. It's dead dead.


Thank you! Is that "dead dead" as in did it last year and it didn't come back in the same areas this year? Or at least the roots pull out if you did it this Spring? Also, did you do this treatment before mowing for the first time? I have a suspicion it's easier to kill before mowing. Just a hunch.


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## g-man

@Clover13 I moved your topic here. It looks like the unidentified weed in this thread.


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## Belgianbillie

Jconnelly6b said:


> @Green rates below per gallon
> 
> 0.5 tsp Tenacity
> 2 oz Wipe Out
> 1 oz NIS
> 1 TBS AMS
> 
> I'll get a picture this evening. It's dead dead.


The poa triv is dead?


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## Clover13

@rkorsen Interestingly, I'm also in NJ and also have deer/droppings. I do notice similar strains of grass in the woods area, wonder if deer eat it and then transfer the seeds via droppings.

@g-man OK, thank you.

Anyone have any idea on general "blotchiness" of the lawn?


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## Clover13

@Powhatan and @Mozart do you two also have deer and deer droppings in the yard?


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## critterdude311

Clover13 said:


> A few pics of my lawn taken yesterday.
> 
> 1. What is the purple like grass clumps? They seem to have sprawled up in a number of places and don't recall seeing them before.
> 
> 2. Is the color variation and indicator of different grass types, otherwise why is the lawn so blotchy?


Seems to be a turf epidemic in Jersey this year. We've been hammered with rain now for about 18 months straight. My side yard is engulfed with it again. It's gotten a lot worse in the last 2 weeks. I haven't had a chance to take the samples to Rutgers yet for ID (work / family obligations), but based on the most recent article from RU (https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192) it appears to be some variety of Poa Triv. Possibly a pasture type. The only thing missing is the official ID.

As far as what to do about it, your guess is as good as mine. It's beyond being able to hand pull at this point.

@Clover13 - by any chance did you overseed last year, and if so, what variety / mix did you overseed with? I'm kind of leaning in the camp that there is A LOT of tainited seed coming in to this area, but how we can prove that or what we can do about it, I dunno.


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## Jconnelly6b

I definitely have deer droppings in the yard, and they have long been suspected by me of being the main source of invasive grass. I made a post on this last year.

The deer LOVE poa annua. Any patch in the lawn is nicely manicured by them in early spring before the lawn wakes up.


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## trick

I noticed it in our development too, the deer are always around leaving little piles


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## critterdude311

trick said:


> I noticed it in our development too, the deer are always around leaving little piles


@trick yea, there's a lot of deer in the area. Hard to imagine they could be crapping this much all over Jersey, but, hey, it's NJ, I'm surprised we aren't taxed for it.


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## Powhatan

Clover13 said:


> @Powhatan and @Mozart do you two also have deer and deer droppings in the yard?


Yep, plenty of deer. They eat the grass during the winter and drop; I didn't have to do an end of year mow. That being said, my neighbor has the same deer eating in his grass and he claims he hasn't seen the maroon colored poa trivialis. We both over seeded in 2017, the year before I noticed the poa t. He only used TTTF; I put down TTTF and HBG. I mechanically aerated last fall and I believe that's how poa t spread.


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## Clover13

critterdude311 said:


> Seems to be a turf epidemic in Jersey this year. We've been hammered with rain now for about 18 months straight. My side yard is engulfed with it again. It's gotten a lot worse in the last 2 weeks. I haven't had a chance to take the samples to Rutgers yet for ID (work / family obligations), but based on the most recent article from RU (https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192) it appears to be some variety of Poa Triv. Possibly a pasture type. The only thing missing is the official ID.
> 
> As far as what to do about it, your guess is as good as mine. It's beyond being able to hand pull at this point.
> 
> @Clover13 - by any chance did you overseed last year, and if so, what variety / mix did you overseed with? I'm kind of leaning in the camp that there is A LOT of tainited seed coming in to this area, but how we can prove that or what we can do about it, I dunno.


It is very hard to pull when established that well. Also hard to find the core center root.

I had a company aerate and overseed, same one that manages the chemical side. They are very particular about what they put down and where they get their topsoil from, so if I had to guess it wouldn't be from them unless it was unknowingly mixed in even to them.

With that said, it isn't everywhere on my lawn, it's just in certain areas albeit quite extensive. The deer theory would seem to align better for it's distribution, but it would still have to be something they consumed somewhere that suddenly sprawled around here (South NJ) last/this year.

Edit: Also just saw the mechanical aeration theory. I've had mine aerated a couple times now in different years but haven't seen this crop up. I've also noticed the same type of grass in my mulch beds (albeit very minimal and not "taking over").


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## Clover13

Hmmm after this rain all passes I'll have to take a closer look at the lighter colored patches and just see if it's younger growth of this same type of grass. If it is, then it is pretty extensive throughout the lawn but it's not everywhere either. Very strange.


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## critterdude311

Clover13 said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to be a turf epidemic in Jersey this year. We've been hammered with rain now for about 18 months straight. My side yard is engulfed with it again. It's gotten a lot worse in the last 2 weeks. I haven't had a chance to take the samples to Rutgers yet for ID (work / family obligations), but based on the most recent article from RU (https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192) it appears to be some variety of Poa Triv. Possibly a pasture type. The only thing missing is the official ID.
> 
> As far as what to do about it, your guess is as good as mine. It's beyond being able to hand pull at this point.
> 
> @Clover13 - by any chance did you overseed last year, and if so, what variety / mix did you overseed with? I'm kind of leaning in the camp that there is A LOT of tainited seed coming in to this area, but how we can prove that or what we can do about it, I dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> It is very hard to pull when established that well. Also hard to find the core center root.
Click to expand...

Yep, mine is the same. If it is Poa Triv, it is surprisingly well rooted. Approximately 2 inches deep at the center core root. I have to trace all of the stems to try and find the center core root, because it is so intermixed with my regular turf. It makes pulling it nearly impossible. The strong rooting and lack of stolons (so far) really leaves me scratching my head. It's almost like a hybrid of Triv and Orchard Grass, but I hate speculating as I don't want to keep driving this thread in the wrong direction.


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## Green

These posts about it being a bunchgrass really lead me to believe it's Poa anceps. But how it got from NZ to the US and why we all have so much of it, I don't know. I'm going to dig some up next week and will see if I can see any stolons (which would mean it's Triv). All I know, is last year I tried to hand pull tiny clumps of this stuff, and tons of soil came out with it. It was also really hard to pull out.

Weirder things have happened...I had an infestation of Poa bulbosa a few years ago.


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## Tc200

Powhatan said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Powhatan and @Mozart do you two also have deer and deer droppings in the yard?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, plenty of deer. They eat the grass during the winter and drop; I didn't have to do an end of year mow. That being said, my neighbor has the same deer eating in his grass and he claims he hasn't seen the maroon colored poa trivialis. We both over seeded in 2017, the year before I noticed the poa t. He only used TTTF; I put down TTTF and HBG. I mechanically aerated last fall and I believe that's how poa t spread.
Click to expand...

+1 here for deer lots of them near me as well.

I noticed last year some sections with a light green hue around this time, but never this bad and never this tall purple stuff. I'm wondering if I spread its seeds inadvertently when mowing last year and the wet warm spring has just allowed it to explode this year. Either way I ordered tenacity to make jconnely6b's mix, it's worth a shot.


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## Belgianbillie

critterdude311 said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to be a turf epidemic in Jersey this year. We've been hammered with rain now for about 18 months straight. My side yard is engulfed with it again. It's gotten a lot worse in the last 2 weeks. I haven't had a chance to take the samples to Rutgers yet for ID (work / family obligations), but based on the most recent article from RU (https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192) it appears to be some variety of Poa Triv. Possibly a pasture type. The only thing missing is the official ID.
> 
> As far as what to do about it, your guess is as good as mine. It's beyond being able to hand pull at this point.
> 
> @Clover13 - by any chance did you overseed last year, and if so, what variety / mix did you overseed with? I'm kind of leaning in the camp that there is A LOT of tainited seed coming in to this area, but how we can prove that or what we can do about it, I dunno.
> 
> 
> 
> It is very hard to pull when established that well. Also hard to find the core center root.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep, mine is the same. If it is Poa Triv, it is surprisingly well rooted. Approximately 2 inches deep at the center core root. I have to trace all of the stems to try and find the center core root, because it is so intermixed with my regular turf. It makes pulling it nearly impossible. The strong rooting and lack of stolons (so far) really leaves me scratching my head. It's almost like a hybrid of Triv and Orchard Grass, but I hate speculating as I don't want to keep driving this thread in the wrong direction.
> [@Clover13[/me[mention]Clover13
> 
> I have the same issue. My POA Triv seems well routed and i cannot find any stolens. But it has oinly small ligules, it boat shaped and pulls away from the stem.... Very odd poa triv. Maybe poa anua?
Click to expand...


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## critterdude311

> I have the same issue. My POA Triv seems well routed and i cannot find any stolens. But it has oinly small ligules, it boat shaped and pulls away from the stem.... Very odd poa triv. Maybe poa anua?


@Belgianbillie I wish it were just poa annua, but I don't think so. The blog post from RU seems to be tagging it as poa triv. I've never seen any variety of poa annua get this tall or look this funky.


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## Clover13

Well bad news for me, my entire lawn is littered with this stuff. It's VERY well rooted, even the small/young growth. It's literally everywhere, which leads me to believe this was a seeding issue. That narrows it down to either what my chemical company used when they aerated and overseeded OR when I supplemented with Scotts® Turf Builder® Grass Seed Sun & Shade Mix®.

Was cleaning out some mulch beds in prep to mulch this weekend and this is what I had on one tree I didn't get to yet. This stuff is literally all over the place. Lawn, mulch beds, driveway. Less in mulch beds and driveway, which leads me to wind drift or dispersion while seeding. Has to be the seed right?


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## Green

What the...?!

Why does everyone suddenly have infestations of this mystery Poa species in 2019, no matter what type or brand of seed used?

I will submit some to my local extension lab, but we need at least 2 other people to do the same. A total of 5 people, in different states, would be ideal. Mine is all partly bleached out from Tenacity, so they might have difficulty identifying it.

Who's game?


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## Green

Btw, I don't think it's Triv; Velocity did not kill it last year or the year before. But almost everyone here seems to agree it's a Poa of some type (after we went the wrong way and thought it was Jungle Rice for a short time).


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## Green

Clover13 said:


>


Whoa. Is some of it growing up the tree trunk?!

@Ware, this thread is probably going to end up in TLF Hall of Fame, if there's any such thing...


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## critterdude311

Green said:


> What the...?!
> 
> Why does everyone suddenly have infestations of this mystery Poa species in 2019, no matter what type or brand of seed used?
> 
> I will submit some to my local extension lab, but we need at least 2 other people to do the same. A total of 5 people, in different states, would be ideal. Mine is all partly bleached out from Tenacity, so they might have difficulty identifying it.
> 
> Who's game?


For what it's worth, if it came in via overseed, it's definitely not limited to just KBG blends because I only used TTTF on my previous overseeds.


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## Clover13

Green said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa. Is some of it growing up the tree trunk?!
> 
> @Ware , this thread is probably going to end up in TLF Hall of Fame, if there's any such thing...
Click to expand...

This is a north side tree that gets shaded a lot. Moss seems to grow up the trees. Coincidentally I removed all that moss while cleaning up and there was an infestation of ants or termites under it. There was also a small snake I'm guessing trying to stay warm under it. The invading grass does seem to grow anywhere it can grab a foothold. I even have it in the cracks of my paver walkway. In the grass it is not easy to remove at all.

FWIW, I'm waiting for the guy who manages my lawn chemicals to give me an assessment, I'll be asking him about it and usually he has the answers. This is all he does full time is manage lawns, no cutting, no trimming, etc...just chemicals, seeding, treatments, aeration, etc. He has an excellent reputation in this entire area, so I'm hoping he will have some answers to resolving it as well. I'll keep you guys posted as I hear more, hopefully in the next week or two when he comes out to treat weeds and feed the lawn.


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## Mozart

Clover13 said:


> @Powhatan and @Mozart do you two also have deer and deer droppings in the yard?


I do have deer in my area but I do not think this is the cause.

I only have this popping up in renovation areas, not areas with established grass (I overaeeded those areas however). The worst spot for me is around the trunk of a tree, where I have never seen deer droppings.

I thought perhaps bird feed became tainted with poa triv, but this also seems unlikely.

I still think it's trivialis... but I really hope I'm wrong!

I would bet I see horizontal tillers taking root if I don't pull it all. However I will pull as much as possible....

When I first started pulling I noticed rhizomes but assumed these were from the surrounding/intermingled KBG, but now I'm not sure.


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## Green

I had some Triv seedlings a while back from my seed, apparently. They looked nothing like this. I have photos if you want. Neither does the mature Triv I have. If this is Triv, it's a pasture type. If not, it's some other type of Poa. I still think some other type of Poa, because Triv does not tend to seed at lawn heights...I've heard many people from the other site say that was their experience.


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## sam

All - I am not expert in ID, but whatever it is I doubt it is something rare or new, because I travel a lot and I am seeing it *everywhere*.

I wonder if it's something common that just looks different this year from what we are used to because the weather has been so different for the past 9 months, and made it come up looking different.

I hear the Triv suggestion


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## samjonester

The Sam's are sticking together on this one.

I had a few small immature plants of the same grass in my reno, but also found a clump in my established yard. I take walks with my kids around the neighborhood everyday and have seen it in some other lawns as well, so seed contamination seems to be ruled out for me. I also rarely see deer in my yard.

I feel like it's something that liked the very mild and wet late fall/early winter that we had last year.


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## Green

So, who else is submitting samples of this mystery Poa to their local extension for ID? Anyone have any that hasn't been sprayed yet?


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## Fastchecker

So according to the video made in a post above " ID POA triv vs kbg" by ryeguy, my weed here has a lingual (however you spell it) so that means it's poa triv?


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## Pemt13

By no means am I an expert on grass ID, but note that perennial rye also has a folded vernation, membranous ligule and glossy leaf blade. PRG does not have a boat shape tip or stolons like Poa T does. Just offering my two cents ....


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## Tc200

Went on a walk with my son this morning round the neighborhood path that gets no maintenance, this stuff is everywhere. Seems like 1 root mass per clump, no stolons, could be rhizomes but wasn't really able to tell. I could submit a few samples to Rutgers, just need to figure out how.


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## tgreen

That is not Poa T. There is a clear rhizome on pic 3. Wish I could tell you what it is but definitely not poa T


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## Green

tgreen said:


> That is not Poa T. There is a clear rhizome on pic 3. Wish I could tell you what it is but definitely not poa T


The Poa Triv expert has spoken...

Thank you!!

Ok, I'm calling it Poa anceps for now.


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## Green

Tc200 said:


> I could submit a few samples to Rutgers, just need to figure out how.


Yes!! Please do.


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## Tc200

tgreen said:


> That is not Poa T. There is a clear rhizome on pic 3. Wish I could tell you what it is but definitely not poa T


In my own pic and I missed it, thanks for the eval.


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## MassHole

Jconnelly6b said:


> @Green rates below per gallon
> 
> 0.5 tsp Tenacity
> 2 oz Wipe Out
> 1 oz NIS
> 1 TBS AMS
> 
> I'll get a picture this evening. It's dead dead.


I apologize but I keep seeing AMS used in spraying. Which AMS did you use? What was the purpose of adding it?


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## Jconnelly6b

MassHole said:


> Jconnelly6b said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Green rates below per gallon
> 
> 0.5 tsp Tenacity
> 2 oz Wipe Out
> 1 oz NIS
> 1 TBS AMS
> 
> I'll get a picture this evening. It's dead dead.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize but I keep seeing AMS used in spraying. Which AMS did you use? What was the purpose of adding it?
Click to expand...

No apology necessary!

AMS = Ammonium Sulfate (NH4)2SO4 (I get mine from Amazon Ammonium Sulfate)

It's a 21-0-0 fertilizer and the most water soluble with quickest uptake from any plant it's sprayed on. *Added to herbicides it increases their effectiveness and speed to kill*. Most herbicides work by destroying the balance of biochemical activity in the plant, and the added AMS causes a growth spurt for added stress.


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## MassHole

Jconnelly6b said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize but I keep seeing AMS used in spraying. Which AMS did you use? What was the purpose of adding it?
> 
> 
> 
> No apology necessary!
> 
> AMS = Ammonium Sulfate (NH4)2SO4 (I get mine from Amazon Ammonium Sulfate)
> 
> It's a 21-0-0 fertilizer and the most water soluble with quickest uptake from any plant it's sprayed on. *Added to herbicides it increases their effectiveness and speed to kill*. Most herbicides work by destroying the balance of biochemical activity in the plant, and the added AMS causes a growth spurt for added stress.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! Ordered.

Can you post any pics of your dead triv? How were your results?


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## MassHole

Questions on mechanically removing poa triv.

We know that it goes dormant in the summer and turns brown. If you had KBG, could you mechanically dethatch it out to remove it, and allow the KBG to fill in?


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## g-man

@MassHole no. That's actually worst. It will spread more that way. Round up and/ removing the section like sod. You could then let it fill in or grab plugs from another area of the lawn.


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## MassHole

g-man said:


> @MassHole no. That's actually worst. It will spread more that way. Round up and/ removing the section like sod. You could then let it fill in or grab plugs from another area of the lawn.


Understood. Can you explain the method by which it would spread more if dethatched when dormant? I assume by ripping up the plant and depositing portions in new areas, allowing it to spread?

Thank you for your help in my poa triv battle.


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## g-man

Per this Purdue article, it can spread from seeds or stolons. When you use a detacher, it pulls stolons from one section and could then land in another section.

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-41-W.pdf


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## Clover13

FWIW, the guy who manages my lawn chemicals, etc said the following after I sent him pics:



> It's poa trivialis. It's in the bluegrass family. It's a winter annual, and will chill out as the warmer weather approaches.


I'm not sure what he means by "chill out", other than maybe it will stunt as warmer weather kicks in. I just asked my landscaper to start cutting at 4", he was cutting at probably 2", in hopes of choking out some the weed growth.


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## g-man

It will go dormant in the summer and come back once temps lower. It will continue to spread. Hoc will not choke it out. Round up does.


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## Clover13

g-man said:


> It will go dormant in the summer and come back once temps lower. It will continue to spread. Hoc will not choke it out. Round up does.


I'll keep you posted on how it gets treated. Fearing this would mean torching the entire lawn to correct.


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## Green

If this stuff is Triv, I highly doubt Quinclorac/Tenacity mix will kill it. That means one of two things will happen: it either won't actually kill it, and is Triv, or it will, and that means it's not. There's a third possibility, too.

So far though, we've made next to no progress IDing this. We've just gone in circles. We've got Tom, who is knowledgeable about Poa Triv and produces videos about it, telling us it's not Triv, and another guy who manages lawns for a living, telling us it is Triv.

My own feeling is that it's either a different subspecies/cultivar of Triv than the typical ones, or it's not Triv and is a different Poa species all together. It matters, because Triv is nearly impossible to get rid of and eventually takes over lawns.

I intend to find out which it is, but I need help. I highly encourage a handful of people in different areas to find a local extension service or University with a turfgrass program that accepts specimens for ID, and to send them some. Rutgers is the gold standard. I'm currently looking into local options myself. But we need more than one person to do it. I for one appreciate the feedback from both Tom and also Clover13's lawn guy (thank you both!). But they don't settle anything. Keep at it, guys...we will figure this puzzle out.


----------



## Green

tgreen said:


> That is not Poa T. There is a clear rhizome on pic 3. Wish I could tell you what it is but definitely not poa T


I think I see what you're seeing, on the right, but couldn't it also be a new tiller starting, as opposed to a rhizome that will form a completely new plant?


----------



## Clover13

Intersting article here: https://newgarden.com/newsletter-articles/undesirable-bluegrasses

I've experienced that dying out in previous years, which the landscapers (before I had the lawn/chemical company I have now) and myself thought was fungus. They treated it as fungus and it did nothing but expand, then they blamed the heat. Also have noticed landscapers tend to cut too low which promotes weed dominance and may have contributed to this poa triv takeover of my lawn?

I get the sense the fanatics on here know more about lawns than most landscapers do...

This will be an interesting season as I see what this lawn/chemical company can do. They've been managing it since last year and I gave them some leeway given the recovery timeframe may take awhile. But right now it looks like the lawn is going backwards not forwards. Will see as they treat moving forward. They have the poa triv and moss to manage, along with the typical weeds. As mentioned earlier I have the LOC being increased to help manage the weeds that length can (and that article above confirms). But this poa triv infestation may be a big problem and require scorching the entire lawn and reseeding in the fall. I can't see going around and pulling 1000s (or more) of poa triv rooted clumps.


----------



## Green

Clover13 said:


> But this poa triv infestation may be a big problem and require scorching the entire lawn and reseeding in the fall. I can't see going around and pulling 1000s (or more) of poa triv rooted clumps.


The problem: your new seed (even if rated 0.00 weed and 0.00 other crop) could contain Triv seeds, too.

---------------------------

I submitted samples of this grass for ID to two labs in my area. Just mailed them out now. Some are just starting to produce seed heads. The seed head is wrapped in the uppermost blade as it forms.

Who else is game and wants to send out samples?


----------



## sam

Green said:


> We've got Tom, who is knowledgeable about Poa Triv and produces videos about it, telling us it's not Triv,


I just realized from your post that tgreen is Tom Green on YouTube.

If anyone hasn't already been there, I think Tom's videos are great - he should have more subs.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClCBOCxQjkIgB2x_YHpg-eA


----------



## sam

Clover13 said:


> Intersting article here: https://newgarden.com/newsletter-articles/undesirable-bluegrasses
> 
> I've experienced that dying out in previous years, which the landscapers (before I had the lawn/chemical company I have now) and myself thought was fungus. They treated it as fungus and it did nothing but expand, then they blamed the heat. Also have noticed landscapers tend to cut too low which promotes weed dominance and may have contributed to this poa triv takeover of my lawn?
> 
> I get the sense the fanatics on here know more about lawns than most landscapers do...
> 
> This will be an interesting season as I see what this lawn/chemical company can do. They've been managing it since last year and I gave them some leeway given the recovery timeframe may take awhile. But right now it looks like the lawn is going backwards not forwards. Will see as they treat moving forward. They have the poa triv and moss to manage, along with the typical weeds. As mentioned earlier I have the LOC being increased to help manage the weeds that length can (and that article above confirms). But this poa triv infestation may be a big problem and require scorching the entire lawn and reseeding in the fall. I can't see going around and pulling 1000s (or more) of poa triv rooted clumps.


I'd be concerned that that company said triv was a winter annual. Also that they were doing 2" HOC on fescue


----------



## MassHole

I'm thinking this is poa triv as I see the stolon and the legume.


----------



## tgreen

I'm 99% certain that is a rhizome in the pic but let's say for sake of argument it's not. It would be good if the OP (TC200) can help with a clear pic of a leaf blade and also 180 degrees from the ligule can we get a pic to see if there is an auricle? Also, can you tell us if the vernation is rolled or folded (see the vid link on Poa T id in Tall fescue lawn which shows how to ID the vernation).

Overall, the plant in his pics looks nothing like triv to me, from the purple color to his description of a "root mass" to the chaff around the base of the plant to the small size of the clump he pulled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1ez--AFMgQ


----------



## tgreen

MassHole said:


> I'm thinking this is poa triv as I see the stolon and the legume.


now that looks like triv. folded vernation, ligule, color is right. this should be outgrowing your KBG right now, is it?


----------



## MassHole

tgreen said:


> now that looks like triv. folded vernation, ligule, color is right. this should be outgrowing your KBG right now, is it?


Yes sir


----------



## sam

Here are photos of mine. 
Folded vernation

Edit (next day) as I mention in my later post below, the extension identified it as poa triv based on these photos


----------



## tgreen

sam said:


> Here are photos of mine.
> Folded vernation


This one is difficult. I think i can make out the ligule in pic 2 consistent with poa t. The leafblade in pic 3 is consistent with poa species. You said folded vernation so that is also consistent with poa species. Your profile says maryland and I can see the chickweed in pic 2 which suggests it's still cool temps where you are. In my experience, when it's that cool you don't see the triv spread out like it is in pic 2, it's much more dense like what masshole posted just recently. As the temps warm it tends to open up like you show in pic 2 but seems too early for that right now where you are. Also, pic 2 makes it look like there are just some isolated clumps and a few blades here and there which is NOT consistent with my experience. Long story short, I don't know, sorry.


----------



## Green

*Questions for everyone who sees this mystery Poa starting to produce seedheads...
-Did you mow yet? Yes or no?
-Did you hit it with any herbicides? Yes or no?
--If yes:
---What type and how much?
---When?*


----------



## g-man

@sam can you take images of the auricles, ligule and tip in focus and very zoom in?

I'm growing convinced it is a POA but not sure it is POA t. I think @Green approach of having it analyzed by a lab makes sense.

@tgreen thanks for your help trying to id this.


----------



## Green

I dissected a bunch of clumps of this grass today...

I did not see a single stolon yet. I saw tillers and possibly short rhizomes; basically the root system and growth habit looked very similar to TTTF's root system and growth habit.

The ligules are variable lengths; really odd.
The leaf blades pull apart and "string" just like Poa Triv and annua do (KBG does not).

-------------------------------------
I also have some definite Poa Triv patches. They are mostly a finer texture blade compared to the mystery grass, are lighter color, and I don't remember seeing the red stems on them.


----------



## sam

tgreen said:


> sam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are photos of mine.
> Folded vernation
> 
> 
> 
> This one is difficult. I think i can make out the ligule in pic 2 consistent with poa t. The leafblade in pic 3 is consistent with poa species. You said folded vernation so that is also consistent with poa species. Your profile says maryland and I can see the chickweed in pic 2 which suggests it's still cool temps where you are. In my experience, when it's that cool you don't see the triv spread out like it is in pic 2, it's much more dense like what masshole posted just recently. As the temps warm it tends to open up like you show in pic 2 but seems too early for that right now where you are. Also, pic 2 makes it look like there are just some isolated clumps and a few blades here and there which is NOT consistent with my experience. Long story short, I don't know, sorry.
Click to expand...

Thanks. And I should add I took these photos back on April 22

You are right on all counts. it does really reach wide and grow stem-y. And it does grow isolated at times.

I haven't seen poa T do that - for me poa T was a dense mat, much finer and shorter, and patch expanded


----------



## Green

sam said:


> I haven't seen poa T do that - for me poa T was a dense mat, much finer and shorter, and patch expanded


I wonder if one could be turf-type (improved cultivar) Poa Triv, and the other pasture type (natural, unimproved).


----------



## Clover13

sam said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Intersting article here: https://newgarden.com/newsletter-articles/undesirable-bluegrasses
> 
> I've experienced that dying out in previous years, which the landscapers (before I had the lawn/chemical company I have now) and myself thought was fungus. They treated it as fungus and it did nothing but expand, then they blamed the heat. Also have noticed landscapers tend to cut too low which promotes weed dominance and may have contributed to this poa triv takeover of my lawn?
> 
> I get the sense the fanatics on here know more about lawns than most landscapers do...
> 
> This will be an interesting season as I see what this lawn/chemical company can do. They've been managing it since last year and I gave them some leeway given the recovery timeframe may take awhile. But right now it looks like the lawn is going backwards not forwards. Will see as they treat moving forward. They have the poa triv and moss to manage, along with the typical weeds. As mentioned earlier I have the LOC being increased to help manage the weeds that length can (and that article above confirms). But this poa triv infestation may be a big problem and require scorching the entire lawn and reseeding in the fall. I can't see going around and pulling 1000s (or more) of poa triv rooted clumps.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd be concerned that that company said triv was a winter annual. Also that they were doing 2" HOC on fescue
Click to expand...

Just to clarify, there are two companies.
Landscaper cuts what he claims is 3" but it's really more like 2". I asked him to raise it to 4.
Lawn/chemical company is the one I quoted identifying poa triv as a winter annual.

Ultimately, my gut it telling me I'll have to take over cutting to do it right and I'll also wind up torching this lawn and reseeding to also do that right barring the lawn/chemical company really turning it around in their 2nd year on the job.


----------



## Clover13

I think @critterdude311 called it with the Rutgers post on this here: https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192

My searching took me there and that is almost an exact match of what I'm looking at on my lawn.
This image from that Rutgers Turf blog seems spot on as does their description of the stem coloration.


----------



## Mozart

tgreen said:


> sam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are photos of mine.
> Folded vernation
> 
> 
> 
> This one is difficult. I think i can make out the ligule in pic 2 consistent with poa t. The leafblade in pic 3 is consistent with poa species. You said folded vernation so that is also consistent with poa species. Your profile says maryland and I can see the chickweed in pic 2 which suggests it's still cool temps where you are. In my experience, when it's that cool you don't see the triv spread out like it is in pic 2, it's much more dense like what masshole posted just recently. As the temps warm it tends to open up like you show in pic 2 but seems too early for that right now where you are. Also, pic 2 makes it look like there are just some isolated clumps and a few blades here and there which is NOT consistent with my experience. Long story short, I don't know, sorry.
Click to expand...

Hi Tom,

Not sure if it is helpful but I took detailed photos of all parts of the plant which are available to review on page 7: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2461&start=120#p150373

Thanks for your help!


----------



## sam

I sent my photos to the Maryland extension (not samples). This was the reply

"this is Poa trivialis. The red stems are more noticeable now while it is going to seed."

Which is still odd to me because it is so different from what I've seen before.


----------



## Clover13

sam said:


> I sent my photos to the Maryland extension (not samples). This was the reply
> 
> "this is Poa trivialis. The red stems are more noticeable now while it is going to seed."
> 
> Which is still odd to me because it is so different from what I've seen before.


That's what the Rutgers blog identified too. Same reddish/purplish stem. The upsetting part is there's no way to treat this selectively.


----------



## sam

Clover13 said:


> sam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sent my photos to the Maryland extension (not samples). This was the reply
> 
> "this is Poa trivialis. The red stems are more noticeable now while it is going to seed."
> 
> Which is still odd to me because it is so different from what I've seen before.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what the Rutgers blog identified too. Same reddish/purplish stem. The upsetting part is there's no way to treat this selectively.
Click to expand...

I gave mine the 2-3 round glyphosate experience weeks ago, except for a few I missed. Because when it first came up I thought it was triv. I've reseeded and that's coming in nicely now. (Although i know I'll probably have to re seed again in the fall)


----------



## Clover13

sam said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sent my photos to the Maryland extension (not samples). This was the reply
> 
> "this is Poa trivialis. The red stems are more noticeable now while it is going to seed."
> 
> Which is still odd to me because it is so different from what I've seen before.
> 
> 
> 
> That's what the Rutgers blog identified too. Same reddish/purplish stem. The upsetting part is there's no way to treat this selectively.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I gave mine the 2-3 round glyphosate experience weeks ago, except for a few I missed. Because when it first came up I thought it was triv. I've reseeded and that's coming in nicely now. (Although i know I'll probably have to re seed again in the fall)
Click to expand...

I can definitely water enough to reseed now, but figure it's better to see how my lawn responds in general and decide if I want to just burn it all and start over in the fall. Right now, if I had to guess how much poa triv has spread, it has to be at least 30-40% scattered throughout the lawn. Maybe even higher.

How much of your lawn did you have to treat?


----------



## sam

Clover13 - 
Mine wasn't anything like 30 percent. I had a lot of small patches, the largest of which was maybe 4 feet by 4 feet.

Although I wouldn't want to advise because I'm no expert, But I have heard people say that control is not 100 percent in the fall - most effective in the spring. But I hear you in the wanting to wait and see. After all, we could end up having a couple dry years and get totally different kind of weed pressure. But last year I waited and regretted that- it expanded like crazy.


----------



## Green

I sprayed glyphosate today on the most isolated patches of this stuff and regular-looking Triv.

If it takes people 2-3 apps to kill it, how long do you wait in between? I don't want to have to wait until June to seed. I'd rather seed soon in May to get some ground cover, and then repeat again in late August or early Sept to make it look nice.

I'm going to have a lot of dead patches in a few days...


----------



## Powhatan

Green said:


> I sprayed glyphosate today on the most isolated patches of this stuff and regular-looking Triv.
> 
> If it takes people 2-3 apps to kill it, how long do you wait in between? I don't want to have to wait until June to seed. I'd rather seed soon in May to get some ground cover, and then repeat again in late August or early Sept to make it look nice.
> 
> I'm going to have a lot of dead patches in a few days...


@Green the RU glyphosate label says "complete kill in 1 to 2 weeks". The bad poa clumps I sprayed generally took 7 to 10 days to turn completely brown. The organic Dr. Earth takes 2 or more apps.


----------



## critterdude311

Clover13 said:


> I think @critterdude311 called it with the Rutgers post on this here: https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192
> 
> My searching took me there and that is almost an exact match of what I'm looking at on my lawn.
> This image from that Rutgers Turf blog seems spot on as does their description of the stem coloration.


I'm getting caught up on the thread but I generally agree this is most likely some form of pasture (non-turf type) variety of triv. Only question I have is where are the stolons?


----------



## Green

critterdude311 said:


> I'm getting caught up on the thread but I generally agree this is most likely some form of pasture (non-turf type) variety of triv. Only question I have is where are the stolons?


Yeah, I haven't seen any stolons yet, either, and I pulled a few clumps apart. Maybe it's too early in the season?


----------



## tgreen

sam said:


> I sent my photos to the Maryland extension (not samples). This was the reply
> 
> "this is Poa trivialis. The red stems are more noticeable now while it is going to seed."
> 
> Which is still odd to me because it is so different from what I've seen before.


Sam, great info thanks. So, actually upon further investigation today, I did notice the purple color in the pic below. Shows me that I need to be more observant as I had never noticed this before. Also, I had never understood or tried hard to capture the transition from the early spring poa triv that is thick and vertical to the summer triv that is prostrate with stolons running on top of each other. Notice on the one pic below a triv 'blade' that is starting to lay horizontal and notice the root structure beginning to grow on the length of the 'blade'. I'm going to try to watch this process more carefully but my hypothesis is that the stolon doesn't grow as a separate structure like a rhizome, rather, it's actually the triv 'blade' laying down and growing a small root structure. Anyway, good info you gave, forces me to be more diligent in my observations.


----------



## tgreen

Mozart said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sam said:
> 
> 
> 
> Here are photos of mine.
> Folded vernation
> 
> 
> 
> This one is difficult. I think i can make out the ligule in pic 2 consistent with poa t. The leafblade in pic 3 is consistent with poa species. You said folded vernation so that is also consistent with poa species. Your profile says maryland and I can see the chickweed in pic 2 which suggests it's still cool temps where you are. In my experience, when it's that cool you don't see the triv spread out like it is in pic 2, it's much more dense like what masshole posted just recently. As the temps warm it tends to open up like you show in pic 2 but seems too early for that right now where you are. Also, pic 2 makes it look like there are just some isolated clumps and a few blades here and there which is NOT consistent with my experience. Long story short, I don't know, sorry.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hi Tom,
> 
> Not sure if it is helpful but I took detailed photos of all parts of the plant which are available to review on page 7: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2461&start=120#p150373
> 
> Thanks for your help!
Click to expand...

Mozart, yeah, I would say probably poa T. Base this on 1) ligule, 2) vernation, 3) leaf blade 4) outgrowing your other grass, 5) time of year, 6) color and 7) seedhead.


----------



## sam

Thanks tgreen. I appreciate your knowledge and videos.

If it's triv then I guess I'll go track down the ones I missed and take care of them one way or another


----------



## Green

Another question for everyone:

What seed did you use last year? What certifications did it have? What were the weed and other crop percents?


----------



## Powhatan

Here's what my poa trivialis? look like. No vertical very noticeable maroon stems now, the clumps are more horizontal laying down. Kinda hard to see it in the below, the poa triv is occupying the middle of the picture, the blades are lighter green and spreading into the nearby desirable grass. Almost the whole back yard is a mix like this, very depressing. I'm spraying non-selective kill spray on the most noticeable clumps.



This showing their nodule looking stolon/tillers spreading out from the center.



A small clump pulled up. Stolon/tillers on the right side.


----------



## Green

@critterdude311, are you still planning to bring some to Rutgers? I know you said last week you hadn't had the time yet.

Based on Powhatan's latest photos, the look and shape of the grass may change soon in your area.


----------



## Powhatan

In 30 minutes I hand-pulled some poa triv? clumps in this area. The dry ground surface made it pretty easy to pull them up like carpet. There's no roots to speak of, yep it's stolons/tillers on the surface spreading this scourge accross the lawn in and around the good grass. What's left is flat ground.


----------



## Green

Results from UConn are in. They say it's definitely a pasture grass, and the ligule, stem, blade color, crinkles on blades, and lack of stolons or rhizomes are 95% consistent with Orchardgrass. They were thinking Canary Reed Grass as a possible second choice, but said that should only grow in wet environments. They ruled out Poa Triv because the stem was flat, ligule too pointed, and the blades lacked two translucent stripes when you hold them up to the light. The seed head, a panicle, was also consistent wit Orchard Grass. They noted that one of the seed heads or sections of one appeared sterile. They are going to plant some in a pot and check the seedheads again.


----------



## Powhatan

Thanks @Green

Just like triv, apparently glyphosate is the chemical control for Orchardgrass.


----------



## Green

@Powhatan you're welcome. It just did not look like what I've been calling Orchardgrass for years. The stems are nowhere near as thick, and the blades are shorter.

The brown on the stems, they weren't sure about, but said it could be nutrient deficiency or the Tenacity I used.


----------



## njlawner

Thanks for looking into this @Green . I'm just wondering how it can form such a dense root system. I did glyphosate the large spots and it about a week to die. I am starting to see a little bit of green starting to appear in the center. I might have to do a second round of glyphosate this week when there isn't going to be rain the the next day.


----------



## critterdude311

Green said:


> Results from UConn are in. They say it's definitely a pasture grass, and the ligule, stem, blade color, crinkles on blades, and lack of stolons or rhizomes are 95% consistent with Orchardgrass. They were thinking Canary Reed Grass as a possible second choice, but said that should only grow in wet environments. They ruled out Poa Triv because the stem was flat, ligule too pointed, and the blades lacked two translucent stripes when you hold them up to the light. The seed head, a panicle, was also consistent wit Orchard Grass. They noted that one of the seed heads or sections of one appeared sterile. They are going to plant some in a pot and check the seedheads again.


@Green thanks, you are the man for getting the ball rolling on ID'ing it. Not that orchardgrass is any picnic to deal with, but it should be treatable over the course of several years if that's all this is. Triv on the otherhand... *shiver*...

That being said, and with all due respect, I'm not 100% convinced they are correct in this case. Which leads back to your original request about getting multiple people to try and send in samples for ID. My work schedule has not allowed me to stop by Rutgers yet with a sample, but I think I might have to mail it in at this point. Can you PM me info with how you submitted the samples to UConn?


----------



## Green

@critterdude311, no need to PM. I'll answer here in case it helps others too. I googled for their submission form, followed the directions, including payment and packaging, and went and dug it up, packed it up, and mailed it by Priority mail on a Monday to make sure they got it in a few days. I think packages go over the border to Springfield for sorting, then back to their destination in CT. Labeled it fragile and marked perishable at the post office, too. Lots of good packing material and a decent box with lots of tape.

I would highly encourage you and others to send samples to labs. One result is not definitive to me, either. We need multiple samples from multiple environments going to multiple labs, and a pattern should become evident eventually after, say, 5 or more people do that.

As for the ID, they admitted grass is tough to ID. These are people doing their best. Doesn't mean they're right.

One common theme is that they prefer seedheads to help ID.


----------



## Green

I'm starting to think jungle rice again. Only problem: that's a warm season grass. Would it really have been awake weeks ago? This stuff was.


----------



## Clover13

I'm wondering if we have a mix of poa triv issues, orchardgrass issues, and maybe some others. The only way to really tell would probably be to send it to the lab as @Green has done.


----------



## Mozart

Does this help with identifying?

Not 100% sure if this is the same plant but the crinkles on the blade are consistent with the mystery plant. There was a little purple-ish color near the crown but I think this could be KBG also - I'm not an expert with identifying by seed head


----------



## Green

@Mozart, my first thought was KBG also.


----------



## cfinden

@Green is this the same mystery Poa you're seeing? My parking lot at work is filled with this.


----------



## TJO

@cfinden yours looks more like some sort of spear grass maybe cheatgrass those don't look like a poa seed head.


----------



## Green

@cfinden, I can't really tell from the photos, sorry. It might be something else.


----------



## critterdude311

Green said:


> @cfinden, I can't really tell from the photos, sorry. It might be something else.


@cfinden it looks like something else.


----------



## Green

I just saw some more of this mystery grass in a public area in my community:

Here's the overall area:









In the following medium shot and closeup, you can clearly see the grass and tell it's the same stuff, with the desirable KBG and Tall Fescue intermingled:



















The growth habit is so weird, same as my clumps...almost horizontal along the ground. This grass seems to be actually protecting the intermingled KBG and Tall Fescue from damage in this high traffic area.

Wow, someone even went through this several years ago: https://aroundtheyard.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=19267
I even replied in that post. I had not seen the stuff myself yet, back then.

Keep the photos coming!


----------



## Green

I hate to say this, but if we're going to figure this puzzle out, this reference seems like it's the key. Anyone have time to look at it? If so, please do.

https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/3372/Poa_in_Fl_Nth_Am_2007.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


----------



## mooch91

Hi all.

I've come to join this poa party. Coincidentally, I used to live in central NJ very near to some of you all. Now in central PA.



I would bet that most of the pictures posted here are poa triv or some equally nasty variant of poa. I've been following and researching this invader in my 1.5 acre property for the past 5 years (as long as I've been in the house). I would say up to 20% of my lawn is contaminated with triv at the moment, not sure if I did it with bad seed or if it was present in the seed used by the builder to establish the lawn (I believe the property was hydroseeded). I've definitely made some mistakes with cheap seed, slice seeding, and aeration in an attempt to improve the lawn over the few years I've been here.

My conclusions are this:


It's just about everywhere in the lawn. In the heat, the smaller patches (couple inches in diameter) "get absorbed" by the desirable grasses, the larger patches fade to rotting brown. You only see the smaller patches in the spring and fall; in mid-summer the majority of the lawn looks great because the desirable grasses take over. The larger patches are the ones that are most unsightly. Despite the takeover, patches always come back.
It's taking over very quickly - it feels like it's just grown like gangbusters the past two years. Seasons have been wet here in central PA.
It loves both shade and moisture. You can actually see it following the path of a drainage swale in the property. It's now appearing in an area I renovated about three years ago which was exclusively TTTF and quality KBG; this area is on the outskirts of the drainage swale.
Though I never see seeds, I'm convinced that it's not entirely propagating by stolons. The new patches that develop are in areas unconnected to infested areas. Again, it may be a function of the fact that there are plants already established throughout the lawn just waiting to take over.
I have a couple of different "varieties" of it - some forms a dense mat with thin blades, others form what appear to be clumps that grow taller with stalks. I'm still not entirely sure that all of it is poa triv, some could be a creeping fescue, or other cheap seed, present in northern mixes. The clumps might be "young" plants established from seed before the stolon growth begins.
I'm convinced the purple color on the stalks is part of its annual or lifetime growth cycle. I know I saw purple a couple of weeks back, went out today and could find none of the plants having the purple color.

Here are some pictures, many taken today:


----------



## mooch91

...continuation of the previous post.

Some additional pictures:





I've not tried much to control or eliminate the triv in my yard, as I'm very apprehensive that either a spring or fall renovation (even if I did it in sections) would ever truly eliminate it. I've even contemplated trying to find a quantity of Velocity of Xonerate as I've heard of some success using them to control triv; even though the cost is high, it would seem it still beats the cost and work involved a renovation.

I'm here because I want to learn more and come up with a strategy to address.


----------



## MassHole

@tgreen - Did you do a follow up on your application of Xonerate and Tenacity? Just found your video.

I saw your success with the Velocity - which I could buy some somewhere online! :lol:


----------



## MassHole

@Green I think the poa triv / Xonerate / Velocity video on YouTube is yours?

Don't mean to stalk, just looking for input.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

mooch91 said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I've come to join this poa party. Coincidentally, I used to live in central NJ very near to some of you all. Now in central PA.
> 
> 
> 
> I would bet that most of the pictures posted here are poa triv or some equally nasty variant of poa. I've been following and researching this invader in my 1.5 acre property for the past 5 years (as long as I've been in the house). I would say up to 20% of my lawn is contaminated with triv at the moment, not sure if I did it with bad seed or if it was present in the seed used by the builder to establish the lawn (I believe the property was hydroseeded). I've definitely made some mistakes with cheap seed, slice seeding, and aeration in an attempt to improve the lawn over the few years I've been here.
> 
> My conclusions are this:
> 
> 
> It's just about everywhere in the lawn. In the heat, the smaller patches (couple inches in diameter) "get absorbed" by the desirable grasses, the larger patches fade to rotting brown. You only see the smaller patches in the spring and fall; in mid-summer the majority of the lawn looks great because the desirable grasses take over. The larger patches are the ones that are most unsightly. Despite the takeover, patches always come back.
> It's taking over very quickly - it feels like it's just grown like gangbusters the past two years. Seasons have been wet here in central PA.
> It loves both shade and moisture. You can actually see it following the path of a drainage swale in the property. It's now appearing in an area I renovated about three years ago which was exclusively TTTF and quality KBG; this area is on the outskirts of the drainage swale.
> Though I never see seeds, I'm convinced that it's not entirely propagating by stolons. The new patches that develop are in areas unconnected to infested areas. Again, it may be a function of the fact that there are plants already established throughout the lawn just waiting to take over.
> I have a couple of different "varieties" of it - some forms a dense mat with thin blades, others form what appear to be clumps that grow taller with stalks. I'm still not entirely sure that all of it is poa triv, some could be a creeping fescue, or other cheap seed, present in northern mixes. The clumps might be "young" plants established from seed before the stolon growth begins.
> I'm convinced the purple color on the stalks is part of its annual or lifetime growth cycle. I know I saw purple a couple of weeks back, went out today and could find none of the plants having the purple color.
> 
> Here are some pictures, many taken today:


I feel your pain for sure man. It's unsightly, looks like a sick face with lesions on it. I've also watched your videos and they have been very informative, thanks for taking the time.

My situation is similar. I have an area that is shaded, poor drainage, constantly wet/humid. I'm building a walkway leading to the kids playground in that area because I quite frankly don't think it's going to get better with a reno. " It is what it is" type mentality.

I'm planning on killing off the rest of the lawn that is infected with POA T as a partial Reno.

I'm going to spot spray the areas that are infected as well throughout the yard and reseeding.

To mix in the color of the partial Reno and the spot speeded areas, I'm going to overseed the entire lawn to mend the color

I'll be using SSS fescue mix and KBG


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> Green I think the poa triv / Xonerate / Velocity video on YouTube is yours?
> 
> Don't mean to stalk, just looking for input.


Not mine. I believe the video you're talking about is one of @tgreen's.


----------



## Green

@mooch91, I once killed and reseeded an area that had Triv, maybe back in 2013. To this day, I don't see any in that area; it's holding strong. I'm hoping my current kill and reseed in progress produces similar results.

Another thing is, I'm seeing some of this grass (the unknown red stalk Poa species) pop up in other areas I haven't seeded since a 2013 reno. Very strange.


----------



## critterdude311

mooch91 said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I've come to join this poa party. Coincidentally, I used to live in central NJ very near to some of you all. Now in central PA.
> 
> 
> 
> I would bet that most of the pictures posted here are poa triv or some equally nasty variant of poa. I've been following and researching this invader in my 1.5 acre property for the past 5 years (as long as I've been in the house). I would say up to 20% of my lawn is contaminated with triv at the moment, not sure if I did it with bad seed or if it was present in the seed used by the builder to establish the lawn (I believe the property was hydroseeded). I've definitely made some mistakes with cheap seed, slice seeding, and aeration in an attempt to improve the lawn over the few years I've been here.
> 
> My conclusions are this:
> 
> 
> It's just about everywhere in the lawn. In the heat, the smaller patches (couple inches in diameter) "get absorbed" by the desirable grasses, the larger patches fade to rotting brown. You only see the smaller patches in the spring and fall; in mid-summer the majority of the lawn looks great because the desirable grasses take over. The larger patches are the ones that are most unsightly. Despite the takeover, patches always come back.
> It's taking over very quickly - it feels like it's just grown like gangbusters the past two years. Seasons have been wet here in central PA.
> It loves both shade and moisture. You can actually see it following the path of a drainage swale in the property. It's now appearing in an area I renovated about three years ago which was exclusively TTTF and quality KBG; this area is on the outskirts of the drainage swale.
> Though I never see seeds, I'm convinced that it's not entirely propagating by stolons. The new patches that develop are in areas unconnected to infested areas. Again, it may be a function of the fact that there are plants already established throughout the lawn just waiting to take over.
> I have a couple of different "varieties" of it - some forms a dense mat with thin blades, others form what appear to be clumps that grow taller with stalks. I'm still not entirely sure that all of it is poa triv, some could be a creeping fescue, or other cheap seed, present in northern mixes. The clumps might be "young" plants established from seed before the stolon growth begins.
> I'm convinced the purple color on the stalks is part of its annual or lifetime growth cycle. I know I saw purple a couple of weeks back, went out today and could find none of the plants having the purple color.
> 
> Here are some pictures, many taken today:


@mooch91 thanks for sharing your info. I'm quite confident based on the pictures you've posted here I have the exact same variety of poa (or whatever it is). My too appeared to get "consumed" by good grasses in the summer last year, so I was tricked in to thinking the problem was solved only to see it come back with a vengeance this April. For me, if I let the stalks get tall enough, they definitely started producing seed, but I would say in the last week the seed production has slowed, and coincidentally the reddish nature of the stems has stopped which leads credence to your idea of the annual nature on the stalks. I've also ripped some of the stalks open and found seeds wrapped in the stalk, so they can "hide" in certain cases if that makes any sense.

As far as controlling it, I'm in the same boat with you. It's so intermixed and scattered over segments of the yard, I don't think anything short of a total kill on the yard will eliminate it at this point. Trying to do a total kill on lots our sizes seems impractical because if you don't get every seed stolon and root it will almost surely come back. I think without some type of selective control option, we need to think more in terms of masking and "living with it". I don't mean to discourage you or the guys on this thread, i encourage everyone to keep working on control techniques but I think it's also important to have realistic expectations about what can be done on large properties.

As crazy as it sounds, I have another thread about zoysia conversion I've started on my backyard (completely different topic), but one of the long term thoughts there would be if you had a zoysia yard in the summer,maybe you could live with the triv in the early spring and transition between the two. I know it's radical but they do overseed golf greens in the south with triv over winter. It could be an outside the box alternative. At this point I wouldn't take any ideas off the table.


----------



## Green

@critterdude311, I believe that's how the seeds form...in the stalk. Then they pop up. But I don't know if they're viable immediately. Also, the people at UConn found that some of mine in the samples I gave them were sterile.

Troysia, anyone?


----------



## critterdude311

Green said:


> @critterdude311, I believe that's how the seeds form...in the stalk. Then they pop up. But I don't know if they're viable immediately. Also, the people at UConn found that some of mine in the samples I gave them were sterile.
> 
> Troysia, anyone?


@Green I found stems /stalks which looked like they expanded laterally first and now popping upwards in a completely different (like exact opposite side of the property) this weekend. It was heartbreaking because it almost certainly confirms for me this will not be controllable now. I have no idea how it got there but I'm suspicious a member of my all natural core aeration team (squirrels) May have transplanted seeds from one area to another. This is sort of like watching a slow motion train wreck because I know what's going to happen to this area over the next few years. Constantly spraying round up everywhere is not an option if I want to keep peace with the wifey.


----------



## Green

@critterdude311, that's a good point. I think the free aerators do move seed around. I found a ryegrass plant in the back the other day while digging out samples.

I would RU the worst of the isolated patches now, reseed or sod from plugs, and then try the Xonerate suppression thing on other areas this year.


----------



## Green

@critterdude311 another selective option (forget what time of year) is Certainty, then plug to establish more KBG, and then seed TTTF again in August.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Green

Looking at your suggestions and I wish I could bring myself to kill off the triv that I have but I just can't do it this early into the year. It will be make my property unsightly with brown patches (thought the light green isn't any better)
I plan on doing this during the reno window. I have the POA triv spots marked off so when it's time it kill it off, I know exactly where they can be found. 
Would you have any other opinions other than round up during that time of late August?


----------



## Tc200

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green
> 
> Looking at your suggestions and I wish I could bring myself to kill off the triv that I have but I just can't do it this early into the year. It will be make my property unsightly with brown patches (thought the light green isn't any better)
> I plan on doing this during the reno window. I have the POA triv spots marked off so when it's time it kill it off, I know exactly where they can be found.
> Would you have any other opinions other than round up during that time of late August?


To piggyback on this, did you see the light green POA patches in the fall last year?

I have the same plan as you, but rather than the whole area I am just doing the worst 2.5 M behind my shed. I am concerned that if I do the full 7.5 M that's affected, the POA is going to be dormant from the heat of summer and the gly is not going to kill it. . Then after the Reno, even with a fall and spring Pre-M, the perennial nature of it will rear it's ugly head in spring and I'll be back where I started. Basically I'm worried the only way to control it is to kill in spring and I'm not dealing with large brown patches all summer. I am at least going to do a kbg blend back there so that if it happens I can spray them with gly in the spring and push the kbg to fill in. But, I'm only confident in this for my back area.


----------



## Green

Guys, unfortunately, seed, sod, plugs, etc. are the only way to partly fix it until late Summer. That's what I'll be doing.


----------



## critterdude311

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Green
> 
> Looking at your suggestions and I wish I could bring myself to kill off the triv that I have but I just can't do it this early into the year. It will be make my property unsightly with brown patches (thought the light green isn't any better)
> I plan on doing this during the reno window. I have the POA triv spots marked off so when it's time it kill it off, I know exactly where they can be found.
> Would you have any other opinions other than round up during that time of late August?


@Scagfreedom48z+ -- the problem with triv (assuming this is triv), is that it goes dormant in the summer. If you try to kill / renovate the area in the fall, the triv might not be fully out of dormancy, so you will kill some, but not all of it. I would hate to see you go through a renovation thinking you got it, only to be disappointed come the following spring. There are lots of articles online about only getting partial kills with fall renovation on triv-infested areas, and that is why I'm terming this the _cool season quagmire_.


----------



## redknite

I'm seeing this in my yard too... I've no idea what to do.


----------



## mooch91

critterdude311 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green
> 
> Looking at your suggestions and I wish I could bring myself to kill off the triv that I have but I just can't do it this early into the year. It will be make my property unsightly with brown patches (thought the light green isn't any better)
> I plan on doing this during the reno window. I have the POA triv spots marked off so when it's time it kill it off, I know exactly where they can be found.
> Would you have any other opinions other than round up during that time of late August?
> 
> 
> 
> @Scagfreedom48z+ -- the problem with triv (assuming this is triv), is that it goes dormant in the summer. If you try to kill / renovate the area in the fall, the triv might not be fully out of dormancy, so you will kill some, but not all of it. I would hate to see you go through a renovation thinking you got it, only to be disappointed come the following spring. There are lots of articles online about only getting partial kills with fall renovation on triv-infested areas, and that is why I'm terming this the _cool season quagmire_.
Click to expand...

It's May 6 here in central PA and temps are just consistently breaking the 60s for us now. I have much of this stuff in the shady, wetter parts of my yard. I'm going to try an experiment and see if I can't Round-up and re-seed a small area of it (maybe 4x4) to see how successful I'd be with a spring reno on it. As you mention, the quagmire is that we need to kill it in the spring, but best time to plant is in the fall. Most of us will hate to leave large patches dead and bare until that time. Perhaps this is one case where the sub-optimal spring reno makes sense. Since most of it is in shadier spots, crabgrass and other weeds could be less of an issue for a spring reno.


----------



## g-man

@mooch91 @critterdude311 don't forget about plugs or sods or grass around mulch beds. A pro plugger is a great tool to have. Seeds should be the last resort unless you want to experiment.


----------



## mooch91

g-man said:


> @mooch91 @critterdude311 don't forget about plugs or sods or grass around mulch beds. A pro plugger is a great tool to have. Seeds should be the last resort unless you want to experiment.


Thanks. When you look at how much I'm going to eventually have to do, I have no option but to get to seed at some point. Might as well experiment now!


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

critterdude311 said:


> Scagfreedom48z+ said:
> 
> 
> 
> Green
> 
> Looking at your suggestions and I wish I could bring myself to kill off the triv that I have but I just can't do it this early into the year. It will be make my property unsightly with brown patches (thought the light green isn't any better)
> I plan on doing this during the reno window. I have the POA triv spots marked off so when it's time it kill it off, I know exactly where they can be found.
> Would you have any other opinions other than round up during that time of late August?
> 
> 
> 
> @Scagfreedom48z+ -- the problem with triv (assuming this is triv), is that it goes dormant in the summer. If you try to kill / renovate the area in the fall, the triv might not be fully out of dormancy, so you will kill some, but not all of it. I would hate to see you go through a renovation thinking you got it, only to be disappointed come the following spring. There are lots of articles online about only getting partial kills with fall renovation on triv-infested areas, and that is why I'm terming this the _cool season quagmire_.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your thought. I'm willing to take my chances and see what happens. I'm going to also dig out the patches that fill it in with top soil. The larger area will be a different story.


----------



## critterdude311

critterdude311 said:


> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think @critterdude311 called it with the Rutgers post on this here: https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192
> 
> My searching took me there and that is almost an exact match of what I'm looking at on my lawn.
> This image from that Rutgers Turf blog seems spot on as does their description of the stem coloration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting caught up on the thread but I generally agree this is most likely some form of pasture (non-turf type) variety of triv. Only question I have is where are the stolons?
Click to expand...

@tgreen for those of you wondering where are those stolons, check out tom's latest video. He shows the roots starting to emerge from the once vertical stem / stalks. I was under the impression the stalks / stems which are vertical in the spring "go away" as the temps warm, but Tom is showing in the video they lay back out flat / lateral and the plant tacs down on parts of this. That is incredibly gnarly and disturbing at the same time. I didn't realize the runners could grow vertical first and then lateral later in the spring . This plant is one ugly mother.


----------



## Green

critterdude311 said:


> @tgreen for those of you wondering where are those stolons, check out tom's latest video. He shows the roots starting to emerge from the once vertical stem / stalks. I was under the impression the stalks / stems which are vertical in the spring "go away" as the temps warm, but Tom is showing in the video they lay back out flat / lateral and the plant tacs down on parts of this. That is incredibly gnarly and disturbing at the same time. I didn't realize the runners could grow vertical first and then lateral later in the spring . This plant is one ugly mother.


I just watched it. That is so weird if this is what's happening and what we're observing and posting photos of.

So, the stalks grow first, and then lay down? And then they either become stolons, or the stolons grow from them...? Why have I never seen this before?

It's weird also because I have some patches that are just a really fine-textured, bright green grass that's super dense, but also some that have a few stalks and no stolons yet. In some cases, the two are a few feet away from each other.

If both are Triv, but look totally different, why? Even different "cultivars" of the same plant species should be behaving the same at the same time...no?


----------



## mooch91

Green said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen for those of you wondering where are those stolons, check out tom's latest video. He shows the roots starting to emerge from the once vertical stem / stalks. I was under the impression the stalks / stems which are vertical in the spring "go away" as the temps warm, but Tom is showing in the video they lay back out flat / lateral and the plant tacs down on parts of this. That is incredibly gnarly and disturbing at the same time. I didn't realize the runners could grow vertical first and then lateral later in the spring . This plant is one ugly mother.
> 
> 
> 
> I just watched it. That is so weird if this is what's happening and what we're observing and posting photos of.
> 
> So, the stalks grow first, and then lay down? And then they either become stolons, or the stolons grow from them...? Why have I never seen this before?
> 
> *It's weird also because I have some patches that are just a really fine-textured, bright green grass that's super dense, but also some that have a few stalks and no stolons yet. In some cases, the two are a few feet away from each other. *
> 
> If both are Triv, but look totally different, why? Even different "cultivars" of the same plant species should be behaving the same at the same time...no?
Click to expand...

YES!!! I noticed the same - almost two different varrieties of triv in my yard! I've been wondering if the more dense, less stalky version is not triv, but perhaps a variant of creeping fescue, etc.


----------



## Green

mooch91 said:


> If both are Triv, but look totally different, why? Even different "cultivars" of the same plant species should be behaving the same at the same time...no?
> YES!!! I noticed the same - almost two different varrieties of triv in my yard! I've been wondering if the more dense, less stalky version is not triv, but perhaps a variant of creeping fescue, etc.


It's not. At least not in my yard. I've seen fine fescue since I was a kid, and I know what it looks like. Almost all of my Triv has looked like a very fine to moderate-bladed KBG. Only occasionally have I seen coarse Triv. But I've never seen what we're seeing this year, where it gets super stalky and has no stolons.

And I'm guessing the researchers I sent it to for ID have never seen that, either, since they thought it was Orchard Grass.


----------



## critterdude311

critterdude311 said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clover13 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think @critterdude311 called it with the Rutgers post on this here: https://turfblog.rutgers.edu/?p=1192
> 
> My searching took me there and that is almost an exact match of what I'm looking at on my lawn.
> This image from that Rutgers Turf blog seems spot on as does their description of the stem coloration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm getting caught up on the thread but I generally agree this is most likely some form of pasture (non-turf type) variety of triv. Only question I have is where are the stolons?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @tgreen for those of you wondering where are those stolons, check out tom's latest video. He shows the roots starting to emerge from the once vertical stem / stalks. I was under the impression the stalks / stems which are vertical in the spring "go away" as the temps warm, but Tom is showing in the video they lay back out flat / lateral and the plant tacs down on parts of this. That is incredibly gnarly and disturbing at the same time. I didn't realize the runners could grow vertical first and then lateral later in the spring . This plant is one ugly mother.
Click to expand...

With this last piece of info from @tgreen on the stoloniferous growth identification, I figured I would write up the growth characteristics of this plant (the one I'm seeing in my yard), which I am now convinced is a wild pasture variety of Poa Triv, so future members can reference for ID.

*Early Spring - Stage 1 - (Late March early April in NJ)* -- light green / pale green / yellow color on lateral growing stems which appear to be floating above the soil line and other grasses (it's not tacing down on the soil surface) start to become evident. The growth pattern is "out / away" from the main center of the plant. The farthest blades / stems show signs of beginning a vertical ascent, so the growth pattern is "out first and then up"

*Spring - Stage 2 (mid-April in NJ)* -- The once lateral growing stems (out and up) are now beginning to become fully erect. The stems / stalks are painted a reddish / purple color. The stem / stalk growth in this stage looks similar to if you tried to spread the fingers on your hand open wide.

*Spring - Stage 3 (end-April in NJ)* -- Seed production on the stalks begins. It is heavy if you allow the plant to grow on this particular variety of poa triv. Even with weekly mows, the seed production is visible on the red / purple stems.

*Spring - Stage 4 (mid-May in NJ)* -- Between mowing and warmer temps seed production slows or is not as evident. The stalks / stems begin to lay back down flat growing in a more lateral direction, as opposed to growing up. Studying parts of the stems / stalks growing out, rooting may become present as it begins attempts to tac down on the soil. This is the stage which has more of a traditional runner / stolon. During this period, it becomes more difficult to find the plant.

*Summer Dormancy - Stage 5 (July -- October in NJ)* -- Plant may be hidden or if there is a large patch of it established, the area may look entirely dead depending on the amount of water and level of heat you are getting.

*Fall resurrection - Stage 6 (Late October / Early Nov in NJ)* -- The yard may have a yellow hue to it. In my case, I thought it was possibly iron chlorosis or possibly the PH being off due to all the rain we had gotten in NJ over the summer. In hindsight, the yellow hue was most likely the resurrection of Poa Triv from dormancy. Shots of ironite / fertilizer may improve color temporarily.

The cycle resets the following spring.


----------



## tgreen

mooch91 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen for those of you wondering where are those stolons, check out tom's latest video. He shows the roots starting to emerge from the once vertical stem / stalks. I was under the impression the stalks / stems which are vertical in the spring "go away" as the temps warm, but Tom is showing in the video they lay back out flat / lateral and the plant tacs down on parts of this. That is incredibly gnarly and disturbing at the same time. I didn't realize the runners could grow vertical first and then lateral later in the spring . This plant is one ugly mother.
> 
> 
> 
> I just watched it. That is so weird if this is what's happening and what we're observing and posting photos of.
> 
> So, the stalks grow first, and then lay down? And then they either become stolons, or the stolons grow from them...? Why have I never seen this before?
> 
> *It's weird also because I have some patches that are just a really fine-textured, bright green grass that's super dense, but also some that have a few stalks and no stolons yet. In some cases, the two are a few feet away from each other. *
> 
> If both are Triv, but look totally different, why? Even different "cultivars" of the same plant species should be behaving the same at the same time...no?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Guys, same thing in my yard. The plant is transitioning from the super dense, early spring growth to its stoloniferous summer look. I have spots where the triv is laying out and other spots where it is still vertical. I tried to show that at the very end of the video. Keep your eye on it and I think you will notice it starting to lay-out over the next couple/ few weeks.
Click to expand...


----------



## Green

@tgreen, do you think some of these are different types, like pasture types versus improved lawn types, as well? I mean, I've seen some similar behavior in some of the thinner stuff, too, but it's much thinner, denser, lighter in color, etc.

Some of the patches seem to have skipped the dense early Spring phase all together, and are just stalks. I'm positive it's the same species as the ones that have laid down and were denser, but had the same blade shape, etc...maybe they're trying to seed, and that's why?


----------



## tgreen

Green said:


> @tgreen, do you think some of these are different types, like pasture types versus improved lawn types, as well? I mean, I've seen some similar behavior in some of the thinner stuff, too, but it's much thinner, denser, lighter in color, etc.
> 
> Some of the patches seem to have skipped the dense early Spring phase all together, and are just stalks. I'm positive it's the same species as the ones that have laid down and were denser, but had the same blade shape, etc...maybe they're trying to seed, and that's why?


Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.


----------



## critterdude311

tgreen said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen, do you think some of these are different types, like pasture types versus improved lawn types, as well? I mean, I've seen some similar behavior in some of the thinner stuff, too, but it's much thinner, denser, lighter in color, etc.
> 
> Some of the patches seem to have skipped the dense early Spring phase all together, and are just stalks. I'm positive it's the same species as the ones that have laid down and were denser, but had the same blade shape, etc...maybe they're trying to seed, and that's why?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.
Click to expand...

@tgreen the only big difference I'm seeing is in regards to seeding. The variety @Green and I seem to have are heavy seeders. There's no way you could miss it on this variety when doing your mows. Most likely just a different cultivar / variety, but same species.


----------



## Green

tgreen said:


> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.


Mine started to produce a few seedheads...just barely started. And did you hear that I sent it to a lab, and they (actually, one of the two I sent it to) apparently misidentified it? They were 95% sure of their ID when I pressed them. I'm more like 5% sure that their ID (Orchard Grass) is right at this point, to be honest. That said, both labs agreed to pot it up for me and see what the seedheads look like over time. I wonder if the one will stick with their first ID once they see those fully grown.

I believe @Mozart was the other person who found seedheads...some of them developing inside the stalk, even. Or maybe it was @critterdude311. Or both.

All I can figure, is the other thinner stuff has to be improved turf types, or wild types that mimic those. I was reading an article, can't remember where, last week, and they mentioned that, and said that there are wild types that look like turf types.

Would you say the thick stuff is the defacto wild type? It's new to me. And apparently a whole lot of other people this year based on this thread.


----------



## tgreen

critterdude311 said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen, do you think some of these are different types, like pasture types versus improved lawn types, as well? I mean, I've seen some similar behavior in some of the thinner stuff, too, but it's much thinner, denser, lighter in color, etc.
> 
> Some of the patches seem to have skipped the dense early Spring phase all together, and are just stalks. I'm positive it's the same species as the ones that have laid down and were denser, but had the same blade shape, etc...maybe they're trying to seed, and that's why?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @tgreen the only big difference I'm seeing is in regards to seeding. The variety @Green and I seem to have are heavy seeders. There's no way you could miss it on this variety when doing your mows. Most likely just a different cultivar / variety, but same species.
Click to expand...

Maybe or could be a difference in plant reaction to temps between your and my area or maybe light, moisture, etc conditions. There are a ton of posts on this topic and I lost track of who posted what. Do you have pics of something that you are not sure if triv or not?


----------



## critterdude311

Green said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine started to produce a few seedheads...just barely started. And did you hear that I sent it to a lab, and they (actually, one of the two I sent it to) apparently misidentified it? They were 95% sure of their ID when I pressed them. I'm more like 5% sure that their ID (Orchard Grass) is right at this point, to be honest. That said, both labs agreed to pot it up for me and see what the seedheads look like over time. I wonder if the one will stick with their first ID once they see those fully grown.
> 
> I believe @Mozart was the other person who found seedheads...some of them developing inside the stalk, even. Or maybe it was @critterdude311. Or both.
> 
> All I can figure, is the other thinner stuff has to be improved turf types, or wild types that mimic those. I was reading an article, can't remember where, last week, and they mentioned that, and said that there are wild types that look like turf types.
> 
> Would you say the thick stuff is the defacto wild type? It's new to me. And apparently a whole lot of other people this year based on this thread.
Click to expand...

When I walk my dog around the neighborhood I see it everywhere now. Parks / lawns, you name it. The seed production is off the charts. Maybe it's isolated to the microclimates of this area? Maybe the seed phase hasn't hit you guys quite yet. I'm mowing at 3.75 inches 1 to 2 times a week so it's not like the stalks are insanely tall, though they do grow faster than all the surrounding good turf.


----------



## tgreen

Green said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine started to produce a few seedheads...just barely started. And did you hear that I sent it to a lab, and they (actually, one of the two I sent it to) apparently misidentified it? They were 95% sure of their ID when I pressed them. I'm more like 5% sure that their ID (Orchard Grass) is right at this point, to be honest. That said, both labs agreed to pot it up for me and see what the seedheads look like over time. I wonder if the one will stick with their first ID once they see those fully grown.
> 
> I believe @Mozart was the other person who found seedheads...some of them developing inside the stalk, even. Or maybe it was @critterdude311. Or both.
> 
> All I can figure, is the other thinner stuff has to be improved turf types, or wild types that mimic those. I was reading an article, can't remember where, last week, and they mentioned that, and said that there are wild types that look like turf types.
> 
> Would you say the thick stuff is the defacto wild type? It's new to me. And apparently a whole lot of other people this year based on this thread.
Click to expand...

If your state extension is like mine then you probably know more about turfgrass than their employees. The key is to get to a turfgrass PHD at the main campus. A super friendly email with a picture can sometimes work. I've dealt with a couple of these non-PHD people and they have no clue.

There are a lot of pictures and posts on this topic and I sort of lost track. I think I looked at Mozart's pics and thought it was Poa T. Are there other pics?


----------



## tgreen

critterdude311 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, a couple thoughts. First, I know the guy that lived here before me and he wasn't planting any improved poa T cultivars like Sabre. So, the triv that is here is the basic garden variety that I see all over town. Second, I think there is definitely something to your point about going to seed. All the KBG in my yard started going to seed a couple weeks ago. As far as I can tell the rough bluegrass has not. I suspect it goes to seed later than KBG and the 'stalky' nature of the RBG at this point could very well coincide with the seeding cycle.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine started to produce a few seedheads...just barely started. And did you hear that I sent it to a lab, and they (actually, one of the two I sent it to) apparently misidentified it? They were 95% sure of their ID when I pressed them. I'm more like 5% sure that their ID (Orchard Grass) is right at this point, to be honest. That said, both labs agreed to pot it up for me and see what the seedheads look like over time. I wonder if the one will stick with their first ID once they see those fully grown.
> 
> I believe @Mozart was the other person who found seedheads...some of them developing inside the stalk, even. Or maybe it was @critterdude311. Or both.
> 
> All I can figure, is the other thinner stuff has to be improved turf types, or wild types that mimic those. I was reading an article, can't remember where, last week, and they mentioned that, and said that there are wild types that look like turf types.
> 
> Would you say the thick stuff is the defacto wild type? It's new to me. And apparently a whole lot of other people this year based on this thread.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> When I walk my dog around the neighborhood I see it everywhere now. Parks / lawns, you name it. The seed production is off the charts. Maybe it's isolated to the microclimates of this area? Maybe the seed phase hasn't hit you guys quite yet. I'm mowing at 3.75 inches 1 to 2 times a week so it's not like the stalks are insanely tall, though they do grow faster than all the surrounding good turf.
Click to expand...

Are the seedheads an open panicle type like poa annua or a spike? Annua can get tall at this time of year.


----------



## mooch91

Attached is a picture I took where I dropped one of the "stalky" plants on top of a patch that seemed to be more dense, less stalky (perhaps "improved" as you guys suggest).


----------



## MassHole

critterdude311 said:


> the problem with triv (assuming this is triv), is that it goes dormant in the summer. If you try to kill / renovate the area in the fall, the triv might not be fully out of dormancy, so you will kill some, but not all of it. I would hate to see you go through a renovation thinking you got it, only to be disappointed come the following spring. There are lots of articles online about only getting partial kills with fall renovation on triv-infested areas, and that is why I'm terming this the _cool season quagmire_.


This.

This 100%.

That's why I'm going the Xonerate and Tenacity route tomorrow. I can get KBG to fill in, but I can't wait and do a reno and THEN miss some triv.


----------



## mooch91

Anyone find an affordable source for Xonerate or want to share a fraction to recoup some of the expense?


----------



## MassHole

mooch91 said:


> Anyone find an affordable source for Xonerate or want to share a fraction to recoup some of the expense?


$435 after tax picked up from Valley Green in Massachusetts


----------



## tgreen

MassHole said:


> mooch91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone find an affordable source for Xonerate or want to share a fraction to recoup some of the expense?
> 
> 
> 
> $435 after tax picked up from Valley Green in Massachusetts
Click to expand...

Masshole, when you mix it up make sure not to make mistake I did in the video. The Xonerate measuring stick that came with the bottle shows a bunch of different fraction of an ounce measures. The 0.07 measure is equivalent to the 3 ounce/A rate (assuming 1 gallon water per 1K sqft), whereas you actually want 0.14 per gallon to achieve the 6 oz/A rate in the VA study. Same thing with using the syringe that comes with tenacity. I don't have it in front of me but that syringe is set I think to measure at 4 oz/A rate whereas you want 8 oz/A.

Please let us know how it goes. Below is a pic of the triv today, about 4+ weeks from the initial treatment (@3 oz/A Xonerate) and about a week since the second app (@6oz/A Xonerate). Triv is beat up good but am a little worried b/c I can see some very small new growth coming up. You can't see it in the picture b/c very small. Also, there is fescue and KBG mixed in on this pic so you see some green still.


----------



## MassHole

tgreen said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mooch91 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone find an affordable source for Xonerate or want to share a fraction to recoup some of the expense?
> 
> 
> 
> $435 after tax picked up from Valley Green in Massachusetts
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Masshole, when you mix it up make sure not to make mistake I did in the video. The Xonerate measuring stick that came with the bottle shows a bunch of different fraction of an ounce measures. The 0.07 measure is equivalent to the 3 ounce/A rate (assuming 1 gallon water per 1K sqft), whereas you actually want 0.14 per gallon to achieve the 6 oz/A rate in the VA study. Same thing with using the syringe that comes with tenacity. I don't have it in front of me but that syringe is set I think to measure at 4 oz/A rate whereas you want 8 oz/A.
> 
> Please let us know how it goes. Below is a pic of the triv today, about 4+ weeks from the initial treatment (@3 oz/A Xonerate) and about a week since the second app (@6oz/A Xonerate). Triv is beat up good but am a little worried b/c I can see some very small new growth coming up. You can't see it in the picture b/c very small. Also, there is fescue and KBG mixed in on this pic so you see some green still.
Click to expand...

Thanks @tgreen. I just heard back from Dr Perr (who did the VT study) and his most recent study shows increased TTTF damage and triv returning. He does not feel as tho they have an effective treatment for eradication, but was interested in my results in KBG. He seconded the RoundUp/overseed option.

Yes, i realized the increased Xonerate rate (I got 0.12 oz/gallon, not 0.14) but not the two different rates for the second app.

I sent you a PM and hoping we can discuss more.


----------



## tgreen

MassHole said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> $435 after tax picked up from Valley Green in Massachusetts
> 
> 
> 
> Masshole, when you mix it up make sure not to make mistake I did in the video. The Xonerate measuring stick that came with the bottle shows a bunch of different fraction of an ounce measures. The 0.07 measure is equivalent to the 3 ounce/A rate (assuming 1 gallon water per 1K sqft), whereas you actually want 0.14 per gallon to achieve the 6 oz/A rate in the VA study. Same thing with using the syringe that comes with tenacity. I don't have it in front of me but that syringe is set I think to measure at 4 oz/A rate whereas you want 8 oz/A.
> 
> Please let us know how it goes. Below is a pic of the triv today, about 4+ weeks from the initial treatment (@3 oz/A Xonerate) and about a week since the second app (@6oz/A Xonerate). Triv is beat up good but am a little worried b/c I can see some very small new growth coming up. You can't see it in the picture b/c very small. Also, there is fescue and KBG mixed in on this pic so you see some green still.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> CRAP! Thanks for reaching out to the guy. I was always suspicious of this study for the very short, 50 day, conclusions and also for the fact they reported zero control using byspiribac sodium (Velocity) which makes zero sense based on my experience. So, I guess we have our answer. I'll still update the video once I have something more definitive to report. I do love how these academic guys are like yeah, hit it with roundup and you should be good to go....wrong…..
Click to expand...


----------



## tgreen

Masshole,

I have one last idea. Certainty is labeled for Poa Triv control. My understanding is that at one point, Certainty was labeled for KBG and that label was pulled in 2012 or so. I know I read this somewhere but can't remember where and not sure why pulled but presumably because it damaged KBG. However, take a look at this old study showing stats on control of tall fescue in a KBG stand

https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2006/29.pdf

*Here is the key finding: Though both Certainty treatments caused short term injury to Kentucky bluegrass, neither treatments reduced cover of Kentucky bluegrass*

Consider researching and possibly try a small area? Possibly experiment with different rates? I would do this in a second if I had pure KBG and no tall fescue. Good luck


----------



## g-man

@tgreen I think it was masshole who killed his lawn with certainty.

I think I read a follow up to the Purdue study that it came back. It just doesn't kill to the roots. The product just causes damage to the top without getting to the roots.

I'm in the round up camp. And it takes multiple round up apps now in the spring. It needs a slow death so it kills it to the roots, kinda like Bermuda weed.

A pylex/tenacity combo might be good to try.


----------



## KHARPS

Be VERY careful with certainty on KBG. I knew I was going to reno last year to an all kbg lawn so I decided to give certainty a try on my nomix lawn sometime in June, about a month before I was going to be applying glyphosate anyhow. It will stunt the buhjesus out of your lawn and make it look very sick for some time. I had some spots looking terrible all the way up to the day I applied the glyphosate a month later. I don't know how well it ended up working for the triv and annua I was trying to eliminate since I ended up killing everything off with glyphosate but I know there's a fine line between killing the undesirables and the stuff you want to keep with certainty in a cool season lawn.


----------



## Green

@tgreen, I'm spraying all the really defined plants and small patches that I can with the glyphosate, and will then reseed a couple of times this year, once right after, and again in August.

Additionally, I have (and have used another year) Velocity. I plan to use it on the intermingled stuff. What is your recommendation for a program (with rates and timings versus the weather)?

Thanks.


----------



## Green

tgreen said:


> I have one last idea. Certainty is labeled for Poa Triv control. My understanding is that at one point, Certainty was labeled for KBG and that label was pulled in 2012 or so. I know I read this somewhere but can't remember where and not sure why pulled but presumably because it damaged KBG. However, take a look at this old study showing stats on control of tall fescue in a KBG stand


Here is the old label. Save it, and arm yourself with it.


----------



## MassHole

g-man said:


> @tgreen I think it was masshole who killed his lawn with certainty.


Indeed it was me. Certainty is relabelled and removed the cool season portion. Unsure if it's been reformulated but it killed my KBG. I aerated after dethatching and scalping and believe I spread the triv all over the area instead of killing it.

My wife nearly killed me.

I am going to try the Xonerate and Tenacity and encourage KBG tillering with N and PGR. If not results, I will hit the spots with Round up in August.


----------



## tgreen

Green said:


> @tgreen, I'm spraying all the really defined plants and small patches that I can with the glyphosate, and will then reseed a couple of times this year, once right after, and again in August.
> 
> Additionally, I have (and have used another year) Velocity. I plan to use it on the intermingled stuff. What is your recommendation for a program (with rates and timings versus the weather)?
> 
> Thanks.


I wish I could give a recommendation but at best I can just tell you what I'm trying. Last year, I did Velocity at aprox 2 oz/A rate starting May 1 and then 6oz/A rate on May 12 and then again at 6oz/A on May 24. This was aggressive and exceeded the tall fescue supplemental label rate of 2 to 3 oz/A rate on 21 day interval. It was also an unusually warm May for us with temps routinely in 90's vs Velocity label of no apps at air temps over 85. As a result, I killed a significant amount of TF. I documented all of this in my youtube vids so you can see for yourself. At the time, I thought it didn't work well but by the Fall I observed very little Triv (2018) vs the previous Fall (2017) which had maybe 20% triv cover (and that was after nuking the entire 5K sqf with roundup in Fall 2016). I didn't believe my eyes in the Fall but as of Spring of this year I have very little triv in this area of my yard. I have no explanation other than the Velocity actually worked. The question now is can I kill the triv while not smoking so much fescue at the same time. If I were forced to give a recommend at this point, I would say try 3 oz/A at 21 day interval (like the label says) and then hope for a very hot summer after your last app. Cole Thompson's research suggests that high temps following last application may be linked to best control. I got those temps last year, btw. This year, I've been spot spraying xonerate+tenacity b/c xonerate is labeled at lower air temps (55) than Velocity (70) and thought I could get a head start and I'd give a try based on VA turf research. In all but the test area of my yard, I came in two days ago with spot spray of Velocity at 3 oz/A rate on top of the two apps of xonerate+tenacity. I suspect I will knock the sh*t out of the triv with this program but probably the KBG and fescue too. I'm leery to discuss velocity now because as you know, most guys can't buy it and I don't want to report results on a chemical that no one can buy and piss people off.


----------



## tgreen

Green said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have one last idea. Certainty is labeled for Poa Triv control. My understanding is that at one point, Certainty was labeled for KBG and that label was pulled in 2012 or so. I know I read this somewhere but can't remember where and not sure why pulled but presumably because it damaged KBG. However, take a look at this old study showing stats on control of tall fescue in a KBG stand
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the old label. Save it, and arm yourself with it.
Click to expand...

This is very handy info, thanks! I saw you have tf and other species. Have you ever tried Certainty on pure KBG? Curious if applied early enough in the season if the KBG could outgrow the damage.


----------



## Green

@tgreen, thanks for letting me know what you did. I'd have to look up what I did in the past, but I believe it was lower concentrations more often and produced incomplete results. You've confirmed that a bit higher, less often is the way to go. I did kill a lot of TTTF, FF, KBG, and PR too, but I was spraying too often (weekly?) at low concentration.

As far as KBG, all of my areas are mixes, and all have KBG with at least one other species. I would consider Certainty on the KBG/PR area I guess, or even on the TTTF in conjunction with an overseed after, maybe. But it's over $80 and may not be in the budget right now just to experiment with. That's why I'm trying to nail down info on making my Velocity apps more successful. I already have it and it's easier on TTTF, too. Actually, there was a Canadian label that had directions or at least approved it for use on KBG, even if there were no directions, believe it or not.


----------



## MassHole

Just picked up my Xonerate today. Plan to spray tonight on my KBG. Hope to at least damage the triv enough and aggressively feed my KBG with N and PGR to fill in.

 Oz/acre Oz/K/gal mL/K/gal
*Xonerate *5.600 0.129 3.802
*Tenacity* 8.000 0.184 5.431
*NIS *- 0.320 9.464[/list]


----------



## tgreen

Green,

Here is a link to the supplemental label for TF and PR.

https://www.valent.com/professional/products/velocity/label-msds.cfm

Here is a quote from one of Cole Thompson's articles re rates:

"Velocity's efficacy usually increases at air temperatures greater than 75 degrees F, so we recommend treatment in spring to midsummer. According to the label, four applications at 6 oz./A on a 14- to 21-day interval are allowed. In previous research, four applications at 3, 4.5 or 6 oz./A offered similar control (at or greater than 73 percent), provided that warm temperatures followed treatment."

Note that the above quote was in the context of creeping bent.


----------



## Clover13

Nevermind, I see the quote directly above was from this article...a good one!

https://www.golfdom.com/an-integrated-strategy-for-controlling-poa-trivialis/


----------



## Green

tgreen said:


> Green,
> 
> Here is a link to the supplemental label for TF and PR.
> 
> https://www.valent.com/professional/products/velocity/label-msds.cfm
> 
> Here is a quote from one of Cole Thompson's articles re rates:
> 
> "Velocity's efficacy usually increases at air temperatures greater than 75 degrees F, so we recommend treatment in spring to midsummer. According to the label, four applications at 6 oz./A on a 14- to 21-day interval are allowed. In previous research, four applications at 3, 4.5 or 6 oz./A offered similar control (at or greater than 73 percent), provided that warm temperatures followed treatment."
> 
> Note that the above quote was in the context of creeping bent.


Thanks. I'm actually now considering Certainty for one of my areas. I'll have to decide soon if I want to buy it. I have a KBG/FF area that's loaded with Triv now, and Certainty is probably the best option there.


----------



## MassHole

Green said:


> Thanks. I'm actually now considering Certainty for one of my areas. I'll have to decide soon if I want to buy it. I have a KBG/FF area that's loaded with Triv now, and Certainty is probably the best option there.


I have an entire package of Certainty if you're interested. I only used enough for 5 gallons, but would sell at a significant discount. Let me know if you're interested.


----------



## Babaganoosh

I'm in Monmouth County NJ and have the purple devil grass too


----------



## Green

@MassHole, maybe. Not certain yet (no pun intended). Thanks.

I saw the same bunchy-looking Triv at a family member's house today. So weird looking this year.


----------



## Green

In other news, I think I finally figured out what the "crinkles" in the blades are due to--common on Poa annua, as well as sometimes Triv, KBG, and even some non-Poa species. Ready for it?

I'm pretty sure it's due to the way the seedheads develop. I was pulling apart the Triv plants yesterday, splitting them open at the ligule and pulling the stems apart, and it turns out (any Ph.D in turf already knew this, but it was news to me) the seedheads develop inside the stems. The crinkles are likely impressions from those where the blades (which are pressed up against them) contact the seeds.

It stands to reason that Poa annua--a prolific seed producer--tends to have crinkles more often than, say, KBG.


----------



## Chris LI

Green said:


> In other news, I think I finally figured out what the "crinkles" in the blades are due to--common on Poa annua, as well as sometimes Triv, KBG, and even some non-Poa species. Ready for it?
> 
> I'm pretty sure it's due to the way the seedheads develop. I was pulling apart the Triv plants yesterday, splitting them open at the ligule and pulling the stems apart, and it turns out (any Ph.D in turf already knew this, but it was news to me) the seedheads develop inside the stems. The crinkles are likely impressions from those where the blades (which are pressed up against them) contact the seeds.
> 
> It stands to reason that Poa annua--a prolific seed producer--tends to have crinkles more often than, say, KBG.


Very interesting!


----------



## SpiveyJr

Mozart said:


> I currently have access to the baby and adult version of this mystery plant and today I did my best to take high quality photos to help identify. We are in Northern NJ.
> 
> I believe my neighbor fertilized a few weeks ago (I did just yesterday) hence his weed is "adult" and the ones in my yard are "babies".
> 
> If I missed any identifying features let me know - I will try to get samples before neighbor mows.
> 
> First notice how tall this is compared to the surrounding grass. It's *extremely stalky*, almost like mini bamboo:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I plucked a sample from his yard. For perspective this is an 8.5" x 11" paper:
> 
> 
> 
> Close up of the seedhead:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No auricles:
> 
> 
> 
> Collar - seems to be a _paralell single purple stripe?_
> 
> 
> 
> Ligule:
> 
> 
> 
> Crown:
> 
> 
> 
> Additional seed head photos:


@Mozart how is your battle against this weed going? I am noticing a lot of this in my lawn this year and I'm debating on either dropping glyphosate or Tenacity on it. Has this been identified as Triv or something else? What course of action is working for you?


----------



## fusebox7

@all I think this one passes the "duck" test. I'm all too familiar with poa trivialis and this exhibits all the signs of it. Remember, all plants can have variants... phenotypes as they say. In this case we're observing poa trivialis that shows a reddish/purple stem. From the pictures I'm seeing in this thread, the top leaves are erect (why you see triv growing above other grasses) while the lower leaves show the common "floppiness". Also on the note about it being "stalky"... think about other grasses and what they look like when they're going to seed... very stalky! Glyphosate/dig out the sod a couple inches deep and several inches beyond what you see. Throw it far far away from your property. It will come back one way or another, especially if you're seeing it seed in your area!


----------



## Green

@fusebox7, my other lab contact feels it's almost definitely a Poa of some sort, but says that he's going to need to wait for some seedheads to grow on the sample I gave him to be sure which exact species it is. There are several in contention at this point.


----------



## fusebox7

Green said:


> @fusebox7, my other lab contact feels it's almost definitely a Poa of some sort, but says that he's going to need to wait for some seedheads to grow on the sample I gave him to be sure which exact species it is. There are several in contention at this point.


@Green
Curious to hear more. Thanks for looking into. I wouldn't be surprised if there are slight variations between what we are all seeing. For instance... I have two known patches of the lighter grass with the purple stems that I'm calling "triv". However, scattered throughout my entire lawn I have similar looking patches of a "poa" that has very dark green leaves (and many other traits) like KBG but is very clumpy and stalky. My lawn is in complete disarray this@fusebox7

What's more concerning to me is it seems that maybe there's a new contaminant in sod-quality seed that everyone got blitzed by.


----------



## Green

fusebox7 said:


> What's more concerning to me is it seems that maybe there's a new contaminant in sod-quality seed that everyone got blitzed by.


Yeah. The guy mentioned Poa compressa as another candidate, said that doesn't tend to have red stems. There is also Poa palustris in the United States, so he's considering that as well.

You might remember a few years back, I had Poa bulbosa one year. I also believe I had Poa annua var. reptans as well. That may be the darker green stuff you're seeing...? It looked like a cross between KBG and Poa annua, but had weak stolons. Rule11 on here is actually growing an improved version of it.


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen I think it was masshole who killed his lawn with certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed it was me. Certainty is relabelled and removed the cool season portion. Unsure if it's been reformulated but it killed my KBG. I aerated after dethatching and scalping and believe I spread the triv all over the area instead of killing it.
> 
> My wife nearly killed me.
> 
> I am going to try the Xonerate and Tenacity and encourage KBG tillering with N and PGR. If not results, I will hit the spots with Round up in August.
Click to expand...

Before I decide if I want to go for it...

What rate did you use, and how many apps/time between? Also, what was the weather like? Did it kill the Triv, but also killed your KBG, or did it kill only the KBG but leave the Triv intact?

There are some types of KBG that it definitely kills. They have warnings about some of them, but they don't know all of them. Others, it apparently just damages (which I'll take).


----------



## MassHole

Green said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen I think it was masshole who killed his lawn with certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed it was me. Certainty is relabelled and removed the cool season portion. Unsure if it's been reformulated but it killed my KBG. I aerated after dethatching and scalping and believe I spread the triv all over the area instead of killing it.
> 
> My wife nearly killed me.
> 
> I am going to try the Xonerate and Tenacity and encourage KBG tillering with N and PGR. If not results, I will hit the spots with Round up in August.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Before I decide if I want to go for it...
> 
> What rate did you use, and how many apps/time between? Also, what was the weather like? Did it kill the Triv, but also killed your KBG, or did it kill only the KBG but leave the Triv intact?
> 
> There are some types of KBG that it definitely kills. They have warnings about some of them, but they don't know all of them. Others, it apparently just damages (which I'll take).
Click to expand...

1. Rate: 0.5 oz/acre, on Aug 13 and then Aug 20
2. After 6pm, warm but not blistering
3. Killed the Midnight and triv, but when I overseeded and dethatched, I fear i spread the triv everywhere, so it's all over my front this spring.

I will never use it again on KBG, hence why I bought Xonerate (b/c I can't get any Velocity).


----------



## Green

@MassHole, If I decide to try it, I will consider yours since you offered and it would help you get rid of it and save me on cost (as long as it has been stored properly). Also, I will only use the 0.25 oz/acre rate based on your (and others') feedback.

Even if you could get Velocity, it's equally harsh on KBG vs. the 0.5oz/A Certainty rate, so that would not be a good choice for pure KBG (especially considering reseeding KBG carries a risk of more Triv seed). I even killed a lot of my TTTF with it. Xonerate sounds like a good idea for you to try.

I did the same...aerated, and basically spread some of the existing stuff around again.


----------



## tgreen

Someone else already established this but thought I'd post anyway. I don't get the intense red/purple color on the triv in my yard but apparently this is common? Have never seen anything close to this color on triv in my yard. This pic from this link (slide 20)

www.slideshare.net/osuhorticulture/vegetative-identification-of-common-turfgrasses-in-the-pacific-northwest

Not saying the purple triv is associated with the KBG seed farms in the pacific northwest but that is where this presentation comes from. Makes me wonder if this is a sign of contaminated seed. Not trying to start a conspiracy theory and probably have no idea what I'm talking about.


----------



## Green

@tgreen, it obviously comes from seed...I had some Triv seedlings this past Fall after overseeding. They were tiny. But I could tell they were Triv by the "String Test".


----------



## critterdude311

critterdude311 said:


> One final shot here, I think this is a pretty good angle for ID:
> 
> 
> 
> The purple / red stems are very clear here:


@tgreen the red stalks are real. These are photos I took from spring 2018


----------



## Green

@critterdude311, those are some great photos. I'm going to submit them (as well as some others from this thread) to my lab contact.


----------



## BXMurphy

g-man said:


> I asked Matt, he said no. Quackgrass yes, orchardgrass no. I had that wrong.


Wait... what? Quackgrass? Something selectively kills quack?!? I'm all ears!

I am making a mess of my lawn with glyphosate trying to kill quackgrass. What should I be using instead??

Murph


----------



## g-man

@BXMurphy in a tttf lawn, Fusilade.


----------



## sam

I'm skeptical we are seeing this more due to contaminated seed. I'm seeing in public parks, playgrounds, farm, yards which don't overseed


----------



## sam

Here are some photos of seed heads on a patch I let go

This is probably 2+ feet tall


----------



## tgreen

critterdude311 said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> One final shot here, I think this is a pretty good angle for ID:
> 
> 
> 
> The purple / red stems are very clear here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @tgreen the red stalks are real. These are photos I took from spring 2018
Click to expand...

Crazy, would never have thought it b/c so different from my experience. I think most cool season seed is cultivated in Washington and Oregon. Am trying to connect the dots between that presentation I posted above that came from the Pacific Northwest and that crazy color that I've never seen. Makes me wonder if the red is a sign of contaminated KBG seed? I have no evidence, just speculation.


----------



## Green

@sam, can you also take some clear extreme closeups of the seedheads showing the branching patterns?


----------



## BXMurphy

g-man said:


> @BXMurphy in a tttf lawn, Fusilade.


Thanks @g-man. I'm NoMix whatchamacallit grass trying to coax any KBG that may be there. Still Fusilade?

Much appreciation, 
Murph


----------



## Mozart

I found this seedhead with red stem today. Is it possible this is a somehow kbg? Does kbg have red in the crown area when it seeds?


----------



## Green

@Mozart, not according to my contact at the lab, but who knows. That said I noticed today that some of the seedheads themselves were red on the KBG.

He said once he sees the seedheads he'll be able to tell if it's Triv or some other Poa.


----------



## Babaganoosh

A few posts up I stated that I have this same plant and that I'm in NJ. Monmouth County.

I'm going to add that the past 3 years I've done overseeding and used Lesco TTTF as my seed. Transitions blend 2 years and teammates blend the 1st year.


----------



## All Day NPK

There are a lot of things going on in his thread. I posted another thread (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9527&p=156551#p156551) with a similar grass myself and I'm pretty sure it's German Velvet Grass. Is it possible some other people here have German Velvet Grass?


----------



## MassHole

Green said:


> @MassHole, If I decide to try it, I will consider yours since you offered and it would help you get rid of it and save me on cost (as long as it has been stored properly). Also, I will only use the 0.25 oz/acre rate based on your (and


I opened it in August, and been kept in a cool and dry basement (constant 55 all year around).

I wonder if repeated apps would help?



Green said:


> I did the same...aerated, and basically spread some of the existing stuff around again.


Worst. Feeling. Ever. I just did the Tenacity and Xonerate last night on some spots, and in large areas, I would hit half of a spot to see how it does against the untreated.

I also hit a spot that was seeded last September with GCI and Midnight to see how it does with new grass.

I think next time I will use marking dye (in 3 weeks) and do it at dusk or on a cloudy day to better see all the spots.

Good luck!


----------



## Mozart

@Green I have some better pictures of the seedheads:





I still haven't seen stolons but I have a few isolated plants that I will monitor, like this one:



It is still more of a line green than the surrounding grass but it's darker than early spring. Hard to notice after mowing.


----------



## MassHole

So it looks like we have 3 tests going on...

I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test on poa triv infested in KBG.

@Mike1Bravo is doing Acclaim Extra on TTTF.

@Green is going to try Certainty.


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> So it looks like we have 3 tests going on...
> 
> I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test on poa triv infested in KBG.
> 
> Mike1Bravo is doing Acclaim Extra on TTTF.
> 
> Green is going to try Certainty.


Tenacity/Quinclorac - ?

Has anyone tried that mixture lately? It's another one we're overlooking that may work. We need more testing on all these experimental solutions.


----------



## MassHole

Green said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it looks like we have 3 tests going on...
> 
> I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test on poa triv infested in KBG.
> 
> Mike1Bravo is doing Acclaim Extra on TTTF.
> 
> Green is going to try Certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Tenacity/Quinclorac - ?
> 
> Has anyone tried that mixture lately? It's another one we're overlooking that may work. We need more testing on all these experimental solutions.
Click to expand...

I did but by no means extensive. No impact with one trial after 2 weeks so I moved to Xonerate.


----------



## mooch91

Green said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it looks like we have 3 tests going on...
> 
> I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test on poa triv infested in KBG.
> 
> Mike1Bravo is doing Acclaim Extra on TTTF.
> 
> Green is going to try Certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Tenacity/Quinclorac - ?
> 
> Has anyone tried that mixture lately? It's another one we're overlooking that may work. We need more testing on all these experimental solutions.
Click to expand...

I was thinking of picking up some quinclorac in advance of the hot weather because I had some areas I spring seeded which only got a single Tenacity treatment. If I do, I can provide some feedback. Though I'm not debating between it and Acclaim Extra.


----------



## Tc200

mooch91 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> So it looks like we have 3 tests going on...
> 
> I am doing the Xonerate & Tenacity test on poa triv infested in KBG.
> 
> Mike1Bravo is doing Acclaim Extra on TTTF.
> 
> Green is going to try Certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Tenacity/Quinclorac - ?
> 
> Has anyone tried that mixture lately? It's another one we're overlooking that may work. We need more testing on all these experimental solutions.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was thinking of picking up some quinclorac in advance of the hot weather because I had some areas I spring seeded which only got a single Tenacity treatment. If I do, I can provide some feedback. Though I'm not debating between it and Acclaim Extra.
Click to expand...

I sprayed my mystery grass with tenacity and quinclorac on 5/6 it's all white now, going to hit it again this weekend.


----------



## MassHole

Tc200 said:


> I sprayed my mystery grass with tenacity and quinclorac on 5/6 it's all white now, going to hit it again this weekend.


I won't kill it. It will turn white and then recover. Need Xonerate or Velocity or Acclaim or just Round Up.


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> Tc200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed my mystery grass with tenacity and quinclorac on 5/6 it's all white now, going to hit it again this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't kill it. It will turn white and then recover. Need Xonerate or Velocity or Acclaim or just Round Up.
Click to expand...

Has anyone actually tried multiple apps of that mix yet, though (like 3)?


----------



## Tc200

Green said:


> MassHole said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tc200 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed my mystery grass with tenacity and quinclorac on 5/6 it's all white now, going to hit it again this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> I won't kill it. It will turn white and then recover. Need Xonerate or Velocity or Acclaim or just Round Up.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Has anyone actually tried multiple apps of that mix yet, though (like 3)?
Click to expand...

I took the recommendation from @Jconnelly6b who said that after 3 apps it was smoked, but I believe later said that wipe-out may have been used on it as well. I have too much to have glyphosated it without a plan anyway, so I am going to try the 3 apps, I am mixing it with weed b gone crabgrass control(quinclorac, dicamba, 2,4-D), NIS and AMS.


----------



## Richie0320

I used Trimec Classic at 1.25oz/1000, Triclopyr 1.5oz/100 and Quinclorac 1.45oz/1000. I had good results on the weed in question but I don't know how much was trans located. It seems to have some small growth from the shoots so we will see what happens.


----------



## Grasshopper

I'm not 100% sure but I think I'm seeing this or something similar in my backyard that I reno'd last year. I used a KBG mix from Brett Young that was a blend of seed from the US.

The lawn just started to slowly get going after a colder than usual spring here in the GTA, Canada and I've found a few of these plants pop up this past week. The plants are mainly laying flat across the KBG.

Should I pull or paint them?


----------



## Green

@Grasshopper, I see two different weedy grasses in your photos, both with red stems. One looks like what we suspect as Triv. Another has veins, though. And possibly clasping auricles and shiny backside.


----------



## MassHole

Pull them if you can. Or nuke it.


----------



## critterdude311

MassHole said:


> Pull them if you can. Or nuke it.


Ditto. If it's still controllable pull them now. Get deep enough to pull the root. You might have to trace the stems if they are intermixed with good turf.


----------



## tgreen

Grasshopper said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I think I'm seeing this or something similar in my backyard that I reno'd last year. I used a KBG mix from Brett Young that was a blend of seed from the US.
> 
> The lawn just started to slowly get going after a colder than usual spring here in the GTA, Canada and I've found a few of these plants pop up this past week. The plants are mainly laying flat across the KBG.
> 
> Should I pull or paint them?


I don't see any obvious triv in these pictures. I don't know what the big purple stem plant is but it does not look like poa T to me. Good luck


----------



## Thick n Dense

tgreen said:


> Grasshopper said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not 100% sure but I think I'm seeing this or something similar in my backyard that I reno'd last year. I used a KBG mix from Brett Young that was a blend of seed from the US.
> 
> The lawn just started to slowly get going after a colder than usual spring here in the GTA, Canada and I've found a few of these plants pop up this past week. The plants are mainly laying flat across the KBG.
> 
> Should I pull or paint them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see any obvious triv in these pictures. I don't know what the big purple stem plant is but it does not look like poa T to me. Good luck
Click to expand...

I have these too, I thought it was annual rye... can someone confirm ?


----------



## mooch91

Grasshopper said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I think I'm seeing this or something similar in my backyard that I reno'd last year. I used a KBG mix from Brett Young that was a blend of seed from the US.
> 
> The lawn just started to slowly get going after a colder than usual spring here in the GTA, Canada and I've found a few of these plants pop up this past week. The plants are mainly laying flat across the KBG.
> 
> Should I pull or paint them?


Looks like annual ryegrass, not triv.


----------



## Green

This is starting to seem like a weird dream. This Poa species is everywhere. The yard behind me (which is currently about 12 inches high) appears to be entirely this type of grass.

I also saw quite a bit in my grandfather's yard while mowing last week.

Starting to wonder if I'm going nuts or something...


----------



## Grasshopper

Thanks for the replies.

I have annual rye in my yard also but it looks different to the plants in the pictures without the purple stem.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@Grasshopper The weeds your seeing are not triv. I had them too after I reno'd with bewitched seed from brett young. I think they are in the seeds. While brett young sells certified seed they are not sold as 100% weed free. A few members have had these weeds in there lawn and they seem to be able to deal with them with tenacity. I hand pulled the ones I had. They pull easy but are entangled in the grass so you might pull some KBG with them.


----------



## Thick n Dense

So the LCN put out a video on gmo grass that is RU tolerant.

Is this the answer to triv quack and bent?

Wonder how it looks in grass width and color. Also 60% less mowing.

How nice woukd it be to just nuke triv and not harm the lawn.


----------



## g-man

How will you then prevent the new grass from not getting into your flower beds or concrete cracks?


----------



## BXMurphy

g-man said:


> How will you then prevent the new grass from not getting into your flower beds or concrete cracks?


Hah! Reminds me of the fable where the man had too many rats and he bought some cats to get rid of the rats. The cats got fat and then he had too many cats.

And so he bought some dogs to get rid of the cats but now had too many dogs.

He bought some lions to get rid of the dogs and now has too many lions.

So... he had to buy some elephants to get rid of the lions and now he has too many elephants.

So he bought some rats which scared off all the elephants and now he has his rats back but... now he is so much happier.

Sometimes we just overthink things... and along comes g-man to bring some level-headedness. 

Murph


----------



## KHARPS

You could use a weed torch


----------



## BXMurphy

KHARPS said:


> You could use a weed torch


Yeah, but can you imagine? What if this new stuff became the latest "weed that can't be killed?"

What if you were trying to build a turf that DIDN'T want this stuff in it. Like maybe a golf course or in the transition zone or something. I dunno...

And now you have this new stuff popping up. Now what do you do? Get elephants? Hope the rats come back?

We'll always have something in our midst that bothers us. That's the always the challenge and half the fun.

G-man got me thinking on this. Blame him! 

B


----------



## g-man

It already happen. Google Scott's round up resistance bentgrass in oregon.


----------



## Thick n Dense

KHARPS said:


> You could use a weed torch


Perfect!

Also, wouldnt any overly strong herbicide cocktail take it out thats not RU? 
Or 
That southern checmical that kills all poa species? T word something.

RU just doesnt kill it, doesnt mean other stuff wont.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> It already happen. Google Scott's round up resistance bentgrass in oregon.


No GT seed for me. I hope they never have GT Triv.


----------



## Miggity

It is too early to tell if this will last, but I seem to have had at least some success against poa trivialis in KBG with two label rate applications of Acclaim Extra 10 days apart. I did do one blanket of Tenacity between those applications for other weeds but previous experience has never showed the triv yellowing as a result of Tenacity.


----------



## Green

@Miggity, the decrease in chlorophyll may be a good sign. Please follow-up over time. Also, what were your herbicide rates and application dates?


----------



## MassHole

Two weeks post Xonerate and Tenacity

It definitely is working. Triv is dead. Some KBG damage but it's much better in some spots than others. Next app is next weekend.


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> Two weeks post Xonerate and Tenacity
> 
> It definitely is working. Triv is dead. Some KBG damage but it's much better in some spots than others. Next app is next weekend.


Good to see that working. Hopefully the final amount of damage ends up being less than you had with Certainty.


----------



## jht3

Got a result I wasn't expecting. Starting about a month ago the weeds I posted pics of earlier started to thin and flop over more, really exposing the fact my TTTF is being outcompeted.

last weekend I mixed up a batch of prodiamine, 3-way, bifenthrin, and imidacloprid for a blanket spray. Now the weeds have really browned off and look dead. I went heavier on the 3way in the front and overall the turf there looks more injured overall but the weeds are also more pervasive. I'm sure the good turf will bounce back.

I don't think the weed grass is dead, just dormant. The brown patches sure do look terrible! Now my plan is to keep up the prodiamine through the winter, skipping a fall over seed, to hopefully keep the POA annua and triv from further germination, then spot spray the triv early next spring with glyphosate before seeding.


----------



## MassHole

Green said:


> Good to see that working. Hopefully the final amount of damage ends up being less than you had with Certainty.


Can't be worse :lol:


----------



## Green

@jht3, if you had Triv, the brown is probably herbicide stress along with the heat. You may have really hurt it, but it'll likely regrow in the same spots in the Fall.


----------



## Green

MassHole said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see that working. Hopefully the final amount of damage ends up being less than you had with Certainty.
> 
> 
> 
> Can't be worse :lol:
Click to expand...

Keep us updated.


----------



## Miggity

A little update on the Acclaim Extra on KBG... Either I had a lot more triv than I thought or 2 apps 10 days apart at label rate is pretty rough on KBG. My lawn looks awful including the small area that was sodded with 100% KBG last year, so I doubt there was any triv in that area. Unfortunately I messed up any meaningful results by doing too much at once. I am hopeful that much of the yellowing is due to over-regulation due to an initial full rate T-Nex application. Live and learn, right? I guess in a month I'll either have the best looking lawn on the block or a clean slate ready for a reno. Fingers crossed.

*Edit 7/3/2019 Triv is back in treated areas.*


----------



## jht3

Some pics of my worst areas. Looks terrible!!!


----------



## Green

@jht3, that's how Triv spots typically look during hot weather. You may have hastened the process of it browning out, but it would have eventually happened anyway.

Did you spot or blanket spray?


----------



## Green

Miggity said:


> A little update on the Acclaim Extra on KBG... Either I had a lot more triv than I thought or 2 apps 10 days apart at label rate is pretty rough on KBG. My lawn looks awful including the small area that was sodded with 100% KBG last year, so I doubt there was any triv in that area. Unfortunately I messed up any meaningful results by doing too much at once. I am hopeful that much of the yellowing is due to over-regulation due to an initial full rate T-Nex application. Live and learn, right? I guess in a month I'll either have the best looking lawn on the block or a clean slate ready for a reno. Fingers crossed.


How long were you supposed to wait between apps?


----------



## Miggity

Green said:


> How long were you supposed to wait between apps?


7 days, but I had a couple days of wind and rain that pushed it back to 10 days. I figure waiting 3 extra days may decrease triv kill effectiveness but it should not have increased turf damage. It looks better after a charity cut and seems to be mostly KBG chlorosis. At this point, I blame myself and PGR over-regulation (due to over-application) for most of the unsightliness. I hit it with a foliar application of 2 oz/K of FEature with a 1 oz/K of AS kicker tonight. The yellowed KBG did not pull out under light raking, so I am still hopeful it will bounce back without long term effect.


----------



## Powhatan

I was curious, so I moved away the dead poa trivialis blades and stems. Look what's still green laying and waiting to spring back up. I guess I need to rake these dead areas and expose the still live roots to sun UV to dry them out. I used a combination of RU glyphosate and Dr. Earth Final Stop to "kill" them several weeks ago.


----------



## mooch91

Powhatan said:


> I was curious, so I moved away the dead poa trivialis blades and stems. Look what's still green laying and waiting to spring back up. I guess I need to rake these dead areas and expose the still live roots to sun UV to dry them out. I used a combination of RU glyphosate and Dr. Earth Final Stop to "kill" them several weeks ago.


That is not what my triv looks like underneath...


----------



## Green

Heard back from the turf and plant researcher. He's as sure as he can be without a DNA test that my samples are Triv. It's definitely a Poa. And he said even DNA sequences tend to have variation due to different strains or whatnot.


----------



## tgreen

mooch91 said:


> Powhatan said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was curious, so I moved away the dead poa trivialis blades and stems. Look what's still green laying and waiting to spring back up. I guess I need to rake these dead areas and expose the still live roots to sun UV to dry them out. I used a combination of RU glyphosate and Dr. Earth Final Stop to "kill" them several weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is not what my triv looks like underneath...
Click to expand...

Same with me. Have never seen that look on the triv in my yard.


----------



## Green

@Powhatan, might there have been clover mixed in? That looks like clover, maybe. And I noticed my Roundup apps did not completely kill my clover in the spots I sprayed, even after three apps. I think the grass was protecting it.


----------



## Powhatan

Powhatan said:


> I was curious, so I moved away the dead poa trivialis blades and stems. Look what's still green laying and waiting to spring back up. I guess I need to rake these dead areas and expose the still live roots to sun UV to dry them out. I used a combination of RU glyphosate and Dr. Earth Final Stop to "kill" them several weeks ago.


These things were growing in places where I sprayed. Poa triv, junglerice, alien plant? It's a mystery.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2461&start=60#p144990


----------



## Powhatan

Green said:


> might there have been clover mixed in? That looks like clover, maybe. And I noticed my Roundup apps did not completely kill my clover in the spots I sprayed, even after three apps. I think the grass was protecting it.


@Green I had some small patches of clover. RU for northern lawns RTS killed those.


----------



## Belgianbillie

Miggity said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> How long were you supposed to wait between apps?
> 
> 
> 
> 7 days, but I had a couple days of wind and rain that pushed it back to 10 days. I figure waiting 3 extra days may decrease triv kill effectiveness but it should not have increased turf damage. It looks better after a charity cut and seems to be mostly KBG chlorosis. At this point, I blame myself and PGR over-regulation (due to over-application) for most of the unsightliness. I hit it with a foliar application of 2 oz/K of FEature with a 1 oz/K of AS kicker tonight. The yellowed KBG did not pull out under light raking, so I am still hopeful it will bounce back without long term effect.
Click to expand...

How did it end up working for you?


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## MassHole

1 month post Xonerate + Tenacity.

Single app and the triv is dead in the test spots. I mixed another gallon up on Thursday and hit the next area. Already seeing it dying.

In areas completely overrun with triv, it's the same effect as Round Up.

In areas intermixed with KBG, the triv is dead, the KBG lives, and is filling in.

Will take more pics and post.


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## Babaganoosh

Isn't xonerate discontinued?


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## MassHole

Babaganoosh said:


> Isn't xonerate discontinued?


Nope. I split a 12 oz bottle with a friend for $435 from Valley Green.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

MassHole said:


> Babaganoosh said:
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't xonerate discontinued?
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. I split a 12 oz bottle with a friend for $435 from Valley Green.
Click to expand...

Really interesting. So it didn't kill off your KBG? Do you have a KBG monostand or a mix? I'm really curious to see if it killed off any of your good turf.


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## Kissfromnick

Xonerate + Tenacity blanket cover 7 days after first treatment


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## MassHole

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Really interesting. So it didn't kill off your KBG? Do you have a KBG monostand or a mix? I'm really curious to see if it killed off any of your good turf.


I have some areas where it killed everything, but most areas didn't kill the KBG.

I have GCI and Midnight KBG in the front, and mixed Scotts coated KBG in the back (going to Midnight slowly).


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Kissfromnick said:


> Xonerate + Tenacity blanket cover 7 days after first treatment


Seems to be a quicker kill than glypho


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## Powhatan

The mystery plant identification report:

Plant Disease Clinic
Price Hall Room 106, 170 Drillfield Dr.
School of Plant and Environmental Sciences Virginia Tech


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## mooch91

Powhatan said:


> The mystery plant identification report:
> 
> Plant Disease Clinic
> Price Hall Room 106, 170 Drillfield Dr.
> School of Plant and Environmental Sciences Virginia Tech


Interesting! I would have never thought.


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## Green

Almost two weeks ago, I made my first Certainty application on 4 areas where glyphosate wasn't an option due in part to blended Triv. I'm using the low 0.25oz/A rate. I plan to do two more identical apps this Summer using the spacing in the manual. The last 4 days, we've received some heat...with a 5th day today near or above 90 today. So far, so good. I'm not seeing any catastrophic damage or anything like that. There is definitely some browning going on, but it's hard to tell how much is from the Certainty versus fungus, and heat naturally taking its toll on the grass.

One of the areas is non-irrigated, but if it gets really dry at some point, I'll water it. I think I watered that area once last year.

The other areas have received one or two irrigations since that application.

All areas are a mix of grass types, so we'll see what happens


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## Green

I'm due in a few days for the 2nd Certainty app. So far, it has not killed the Triv, but some if it is brown, and it's not healthy-looking. Have had a bunch of days around 90 in the weeks since the application. The good grass has experienced some extra browning beyond what you'd expect from heat stress and fungus, but nothing too terrible yet. Also some definite growth regulation effects, which I'm not going to argue with...I find PGR useful. Hopefully the herbicide will start really working soon. It was nice to be able to obtain the old herbicide/label with cool-season grass on it, but I'm hoping it actually will kill the Triv after the program has been run.


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## Shawn E

I need help with identifying this. Is this just KBG? It seeded then the stalk turned brown. It is growing in tight clumps. It was hard to pull out.


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## tgreen

Shawn E said:


> I need help with identifying this. Is this just KBG? It seeded then the stalk turned brown. It is growing in tight clumps. It was hard to pull out.


Does not sound or look like triv. Very difficult to say much more from that pic.


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## Green

Update: I did the 2nd Certainty application about 4 days before last weekend, which was in the mid/high 90s (so about a week ago). This stuff seems slowwwww. There is still green (but yellowing) Poa Trivialis hiding under the good grass (which I'm mowing at 4 inches). Makes me wonder if the herbicide is even fully getting through the lawn (which is starting to mat) to the Triv...

Maybe I should rake the matted areas before mowing the next time.


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## tgreen

Interesting. I would have thought the most probable result would have been that certainty killed both the triv and the turf. Since we are so close to the seeding window, I would start hitting it with roundup soon, manually remove the dead stuff and then seed it.


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## Green

@tgreen, the Velocity is hammering the almost full sun front yard in some areas (been blanket spraying monthly, second app was about 2 weeks ago; 3 oz per acre rate each time). It's essentially inducing dormancy in a lot of the grass...browning, etc. looks like I'm not watering enough even though I am. I think I probably overlapped in some of the tighter areas, so they're the worst off. I don't know if those areas can take the final app in two weeks...I'm concerned it might kill a lot of the KBG with one more app. You think I should leave it at two apps on the areas that are doing the worst, and only do the third on the areas that are less brown? Or stay the course and spray everywhere to finish up the program and eliminate as much Triv as possible? Leaning toward spraying everywhere and being careful not to double up the next time.

It's increasing the water needs. Supplemental hand watering helps green it up a bit, but I also don't want to help the Triv recover, either. This is a tough balance to strike.

Also, you did three apps, correct? They say you can a fourth, but I think that might be overkill.

My temps are all over the place; I hit 97 less than a week after app 2...I know it's labeled for 85 and below ideally, but you gotta do what you gotta do...

We had so much Spring wetness this year that there a Triv explosion, and the ground is now running out of moisture, so it's finally starting to go dormant.

Really hoping to get away without overseeding this year for the most part after this is done...unlike two years ago when I exceeded the rates and killed a lot of good grass (but didn't have a hot Summer, so the Triv came back two years later). I'm fine with overseeding a few areas on a small scale this year. I will say, one definite Triv patch is totally brown now, so it must be doing something.

Would have sent this by PM, but you don't use PMs. If you'd rather reply that way, feel free.


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## tgreen

@Green Yes, this same thing happened to me and you can see in my youtube video I did lose a decent chunk of good grass. Link below. Not all of it though and I blamed it on 1) heat, 2) 6oz/A rate and overlap. If it were me, I'd do another app and then seed the damage in 4 to 6 weeks. I know you said you didn't want to but maybe you need to?

Next year, see if you can start a little earlier? Ultimately, I think some of this with velocity is just luck. Cole Thompson pointed out in his research that hot weather following his last app in June (I think?) seemed to result in greater control.

For next year, it may be worth going back and re-reading his research and articles. More than anyone else, that guy was pretty much on the money with every single thing he said about triv, velocity, xonerate, tenacity, etc., etc.


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## Green

@tgreen, thanks. I was and still am looking to do one more (3rd) application. I think a fourth would just be asking for trouble, though, based on my previous experience. I feel fortunate to have obtained a small amount of the stuff a few years ago, so I'm going to use it. Thanks for noting the name of the guy to look up for articles. I was struggling to find references last night.

And yes, it seems I'm a bit late to still be applying it during the heat of the Summer. In 2017, I was too early. This year a bit late. In between would probably be ideal...late May, late June, and late July to be just finishing up is probably about optimal for this area. Not every Summer is going to have so many days around 90 here, though. I feel like it was almost a month straight of 87 to 92 for highs this year. Hopefully I get lucky with the results. I was honestly just going after what I missed with the glyphosate, because it's impossible to find and get it all.


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## tgreen

Green said:


> @tgreen, thanks. I was and still am looking to do one more (3rd) application. I think a fourth would just be asking for trouble, though, based on my previous experience. I feel fortunate to have obtained a small amount of the stuff a few years ago, so I'm going to use it. Thanks for noting the name of the guy to look up for articles. I was struggling to find references last night.
> 
> And yes, it seems I'm a bit late to still be applying it during the heat of the Summer. In 2017, I was too early. This year a bit late. In between would probably be ideal...late May, late June, and late July to be just finishing up is probably about optimal for this area. Not every Summer is going to have so many days around 90 here, though. I feel like it was almost a month straight of 87 to 92 for highs this year. Hopefully I get lucky with the results. I was honestly just going after what I missed with the glyphosate, because it's impossible to find and get it all.


NP and good luck. I did a bunch of vid's on youtube on triv control and in the notes section I link to a lot of cole thompson's articles and research. With triv, I got lucky on two fronts 1) a guy at a university ID'd it for me after 3 years of not knowing and 2) cole thompson's research and articles. A few years ago, it seems like very few people understood triv and the problem. It seems like that has changed, at least on social media. Hopefully, we get a cure sometime soon.....


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## critterdude311

I nuked several sections of my yard in the mid to late Spring this year and have kept a close eye on them. Everything in these glyph'ed Triv Spots was dead-dead for the remainder of the Spring and Summer. I've read about Triv surviving multiple glyph treatments, so I've been monitoring the areas fairly closely. I was doing a walk through earlier today and found this nugget in one of those areas:



Any idea what it is? It has the growth habit of triv, where I can see it is trying to expand out laterally before it grows tall. What is really baffling to me is, whether it is triv or poa annua, why is it seeding right now? If it is triv, how is it seeding at such a low height? We've gone about 30 days without rain here in NJ, so what the heck is going on here?


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## FuzzeWuzze

critterdude311 said:


> I nuked several sections of my yard in the mid to late Spring this year and have kept a close eye on them. Everything in these glyph'ed Triv Spots was dead-dead for the remainder of the Spring and Summer. I've read about Triv surviving multiple glyph treatments, so I've been monitoring the areas fairly closely. I was doing a walk through earlier today and found this nugget in one of those areas:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea what it is? It has the growth habit of triv, where I can see it is trying to expand out laterally before it grows tall. What is really baffling to me is, whether it is triv or poa annua, why is it seeding right now? If it is triv, how is it seeding at such a low height? We've gone about 30 days without rain here in NJ, so what the heck is going on here?


Honestly, that looks like PRG seed head to me? Poa Triv/Annua seed heads are more horizontal not upright like that. It also appears way too dark for Triv.


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## critterdude311

FuzzeWuzze said:


> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I nuked several sections of my yard in the mid to late Spring this year and have kept a close eye on them. Everything in these glyph'ed Triv Spots was dead-dead for the remainder of the Spring and Summer. I've read about Triv surviving multiple glyph treatments, so I've been monitoring the areas fairly closely. I was doing a walk through earlier today and found this nugget in one of those areas:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea what it is? It has the growth habit of triv, where I can see it is trying to expand out laterally before it grows tall. What is really baffling to me is, whether it is triv or poa annua, why is it seeding right now? If it is triv, how is it seeding at such a low height? We've gone about 30 days without rain here in NJ, so what the heck is going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, that looks like PRG seed head to me? Poa Triv/Annua seed heads are more horizontal not upright like that. It also appears way too dark for Triv.
Click to expand...

I'd love for that to be the case, but the leaf tip is boat shaped, and the area where this was located in the yard did not get overseeded within the last several years with PRG. I'm virtually certain it is some type of poa.


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## FuzzeWuzze

critterdude311 said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> critterdude311 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I nuked several sections of my yard in the mid to late Spring this year and have kept a close eye on them. Everything in these glyph'ed Triv Spots was dead-dead for the remainder of the Spring and Summer. I've read about Triv surviving multiple glyph treatments, so I've been monitoring the areas fairly closely. I was doing a walk through earlier today and found this nugget in one of those areas:
> 
> 
> 
> Any idea what it is? It has the growth habit of triv, where I can see it is trying to expand out laterally before it grows tall. What is really baffling to me is, whether it is triv or poa annua, why is it seeding right now? If it is triv, how is it seeding at such a low height? We've gone about 30 days without rain here in NJ, so what the heck is going on here?
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, that looks like PRG seed head to me? Poa Triv/Annua seed heads are more horizontal not upright like that. It also appears way too dark for Triv.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'd love for that to be the case, but the leaf tip is boat shaped, and the area where this was located in the yard did not get overseeded within the last several years with PRG. I'm virtually certain it is some type of poa.
Click to expand...

I can assure you its not Poa, its seed heads look like this









I suppose it could be a KBG seed head that you picked early, im not sure how early in the cycle they get that frayed look.


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## hammerhead

Agree, does not look like Poa triv. Maybe Poa Annua in early seedhead development stage? Another possibility would be ***, however *** seedheads are normally seen during spring, not autumn.


FuzzeWuzze said:


> I can assure you its not Poa


*** is also a type of Poa: Poa Pratensis.


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## tgreen

I hate disagreeing but I would have said that is definitely a poa species. The leaf blade is enough for me but add in the ripple and I would say for sure. What poa? Can't tell for sure. I would have said annua by the look and time of year but that seed head isn't right. It's either KBG or Poa T, in my opinion. Do you have any other sections of this questionable plant? The other thing would be to dig them up and see if you see any rhizomes and/or wait for the plant to mature a bit more and see if you see the ligule of Poa T. One unlikely thing is that the seedhead hasn't opened yet to the recognizable panicle form. Again, probably not but see if you can investigate more on any other patches. Let us know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JiqIbIM7OQ


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## critterdude311

tgreen said:


> I hate disagreeing but I would have said that is definitely a poa species. The leaf blade is enough for me but add in the ripple and I would say for sure. What poa? Can't tell for sure. I would have said annua by the look and time of year but that seed head isn't right. It's either KBG or Poa T, in my opinion. Do you have any other sections of this questionable plant? The other thing would be to dig them up and see if you see any rhizomes and/or wait for the plant to mature a bit more and see if you see the ligule of Poa T. One unlikely thing is that the seedhead hasn't opened yet to the recognizable panicle form. Again, probably not but see if you can investigate more on any other patches. Let us know.


I collected several of these today in different areas I glyph'ed for poa triv in the spring. None of them has rhizomes just shallow roots. They appeared to have very short stolons which were tacking down as the plant stretched laterally. I would say poa triv given the location but I have never seen triv produce seeds at this height before (or this time of year). We've got a mini drought situation going on in Jersey so how it is doing this if it is triv is unusual. Maybe a new biotype of triv I dunno. I have KBG in other parts of my yard but they are much darker in color and shoot out of the ground from adjoining rhizomes.


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## tgreen

Sounds like your instinct is right and that is poa triv. KBG doesn't do that, as you know. I agree it's odd to see a seedhead but would be just as odd to see it on KBG at this time. Sorry to hear it came back after the roundup. Same thing happened to me.


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## MassHole

So spring is coming for me in Western Mass, and trying to keep my mind off the corona virus, I'm working my plan to combat poa triv / orchardgrass in my Midnight / Bluebank lawn...

Last fall I had very good results with killing off areas with Xonerate and Tenacity - they did not come back (yet).

I'm tempted to try two things..
- on half, foam brush Glyphosate on lighter green blades when they sprout in the coming weeks, but collateral damage has me worried
- one gallon of water mixed with all the KBG safe but triv impactful herbicides:

Tenacity (5.4 mL)

PGR (0.4 oz)

Xonerate (3.8 mL)

Triclopyr (0.75 oz)

Ethofumesate (0.5 oz)

NIS (1.5 oz)

Marking dye

Thoughts on this plan?


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## Kissfromnick

I dont see any poa t after Xonerate but it already green up in areas I didn't fight it. so round 2 will begin soon.


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## Green

Kissfromnick said:


> I dont see any poa t after Xonerate but it already green up in areas I didn't fight it. so round 2 will begin soon.


And I'm not seeing any coming back where I sprayed with glyphosate and reseeded last Spring. But like you, there are plenty of other areas that have it. I won't be able to kill it all...have to pick and choose.


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## Babaganoosh

I remember reading this thread last year as it built. But at the end of the day did anyone figure out exactly what that grassy weed was in the OP's pics?


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## Powhatan

Babaganoosh said:


> I remember reading this thread last year as it built. But at the end of the day did anyone figure out exactly what that grassy weed was in the OP's pics?


poa trivialis. I had/have the same stuff.


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## Babaganoosh

Let the glysophating begin!


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## ThickAndGreen

I posted some of these pictures in the Weed Identification section but figured I'd post them here too. The first set I have look very similar to the FrankenPoa that started the thread. The second set looks more like traditional POA T. Apologies for the lack of closeups as my camera doesn't seem to be capable of them.

First set. Contained to about a 20% section of the backyard. They look to be growing upright because I pulled them up to apply glyphosate but naturally they are sideways or about 45 degrees. This area was reon'd last Fall.











Second set is contained to a large section of the sideyard that is shaded and moist. This area was reno'd last Spring.







Would love to hear some expert opinions.


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## VALawnNoob

ThickAndGreen said:


> First set. Contained to about a 20% section of the backyard. They look to be growing upright because I pulled them up to apply glyphosate but naturally they are sideways or about 45 degrees. This area was reon'd last Fall.
> 
> Would love to hear some expert opinions.


How did you apply glyphosate? On the leaf blades or on the stem? Also do you do apply multiple blades per plant or is 1 application on 1 blade/stem enough?


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## rkorsen

Poa triv


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## ThickAndGreen

VALawnNoob said:


> ThickAndGreen said:
> 
> 
> 
> First set. Contained to about a 20% section of the backyard. They look to be growing upright because I pulled them up to apply glyphosate but naturally they are sideways or about 45 degrees. This area was reon'd last Fall.
> 
> Would love to hear some expert opinions.
> 
> 
> 
> How did you apply glyphosate? On the leaf blades or on the stem? Also do you do apply multiple blades per plant or is 1 application on 1 blade/stem enough?
Click to expand...

I applied by dipping a glove in glyphosate and applying manually to the blades. I went as low as I could go without touching the desirable grass and applied to as many blades as possible. This method works in killing individual plants but I'm afraid it doesn't get everything. That area of my yard has doubled in Triv this Spring compared to the previous season. This year I am being much more aggressive and simply spraying any area where I see any Triv plants. Also, I have since purchased the greenshots applicator and foam product which is much easier to use than the hand method if you're trying to reduce the amount of killing of desirable grass.


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## barkyman1

I came across an article that using Tenacity will help knock it down. You need to cut the full dose into 4 applications spraying every 5 days. By reducing the amount and spraying more it really knocked it down and killed off a lot. I tried it in the spring and got pretty good results.


----------

