# Bermuda Triangle



## dfw_pilot

There any _many_ roads to Dallas, but one of the best approaches for weed control in warm season grasses, even in the heat of summer, with the cheapest cost per application, is:








*And here is how it works:*​







In the *Bermuda Triangle*, you'll want:

1) A good pre-emergent like Prodiamine [Label] or Dithiopyr [Label].
2) Certainty for sedges. [Label] (Use the Marketplace forum and split Outrider for more savings.)
3) Celsius for all the rest. [Label]. Try buying it here, here, here, or here.

That's it. There are *no* temperature restrictions on any of the items listed in the Bermuda Triangle.

4) Get a decent sprayer wand to apply the chemicals.
5) Use a $10 gram scale to weigh out your doses.
6) Apply off brand RoundUp: glyphosate [Label] with a paint brush on anything that survives the Triangle, or use Precision Gel.

Depending on how large your lawn is and how bad your infestations are, the price per app with these chemicals is much cheaper than big box store options. That's really all you need. Eventually, your weed pressure will drop so far you can give your leftover herbicides to a friend or neighbor.

The initial investment is steep, but will pay for itself in time, while allowing you to put down _less_ chemicals and have _fewer_ weeds than with hose end applications from box stores.

dfw


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## CenlaLowell

dfw_pilot said:


> The best approach for weed control in warm season grasses, even in the heat of summer, with the cheapest cost per application, is:
> 
> *The Bermuda Triangle*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *And here is how it works:*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the *Bermuda Triangle*, you'll want:
> 
> 1) A good pre-emergent like Prodiamine [Label] or Dithiopyr [Label].
> 2) Certainty for sedges. [Label]
> 3) Celsius for all the rest. [Label]
> 
> That's it. There are no temperature restrictions on any of the items listed in the Bermuda Triangle.
> 
> Depending on how large your lawn is and how bad your infestations are, the price per app with these chemicals is much cheaper than big box store options. Invest in a decent sprayer wand for your sprayer for accurate applications, and a small gram scale for accurate doses. That's really all you need. You can always add some cheap glyphosate and a paint brush for something that survives the Bermuda Triangle. Eventually, your weed pressure will drop so far you can give your leftover herbicides to a friend or neighbor.
> 
> The initial investment is steep, but will pay for itself in time, while allowing you to put down _less_ chemicals and have _fewer_ weeds than with hose end applications from box stores.
> 
> dfw


Good information I will invest in those products.


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## drlushin

Since Celsius WG is no longer available on the site linked above, does anyone have any experience w/ their alternative suggestion, Blindside?

Btw, just joined this site last week. I have learned a great deal in the last week. Have a long way to go before I get to the level of you guys.

I sense a great deal of humility, kindness and comradery on this site. I am really happy to have stumbled onto this site. Now having said that... my wife and employer might not be as happy as I am.


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## dfw_pilot

No, I wouldn't get Blindside.

Just google for different online supplier - I'll change the link. Thanks for finding that!


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## Ware

drlushin said:


> Since Celsius WG is no longer available on the site linked above, does anyone have any experience w/ their alternative suggestion, Blindside?
> 
> Btw, just joined this site last week. I have learned a great deal in the last week. Have a long way to go before I get to the level of you guys.
> 
> I sense a great deal of humility, kindness and comradery on this site. I am really happy to have stumbled onto this site. Now having said that... my wife and employer might not be as happy as I am.


Here is some for $105.95 delivered from Lawn & Pest Control Supply. There is also some on eBay right now for $105 delivered.

We have a great group here - glad you found us! :thumbup:


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## drlushin

Thank you guys! I appreciate you


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## Movingshrub

From a cost angle per application, I think dfw_pilot is spot on.

However, I couldn't help myself and wanted to have a better handle in terms of what wasn't going to be picked up by the aforementioned Bermuda Triangle. The main category that kind of sneaks by is post-emergent control of grass-like weeds. With that being said, hopefully the pre-em controls most of them, if they are annuals.

As a result I wanted to know if there was a substitute for any leg of the triangle that would broaden coverage, still be cost effective, and be safe to apply no matter the temp.

TL;DR - The best alternative I found was replacing Certainty with Monument to pick up a few additional grass-like weeds, but it's going to cost more.

I also didn't want to sacrifice sedge control for the grass like weed control. For sedge control, I looked at several different university studies to see which products stood out. The contenders to me were either Monument or Certainty. In terms of cost per application, Certainty is a better value in price for app vs Monument at pricing, as of July 1st 2017. Certainty came out to $2.09 or $3.32 per application, depending on the rate, and Monument was $4.60 per application.

Reading the labels, there are a few grass-like weeds that aren't picked up by a mixture of Celsius and Certainty, such as smooth crab grass, signal grass, rescue grass, and torpedo grass. With that being said, the tank mix of Celsius and Monument or a tank mix of Celsius and Certainty *could* both be equally effective at controlling all the aforementioned weeds, even though they aren't listed on the label, I just haven't tried first hand.

I don't want to be in a situation where I have a bunch of different 1/2 Gallon bottles of herbicide where I've used 6 oz.

I bought a house where the lawn hadn't been maintained in at least a decade.

For my own personal use, I've use a hose end sprayer for a broadcast of a three-way (2,4-D, Dicamba, and then something like MCPA). Afterwards, I put down a DImension (dithiopyr) pre-em for the next season and started using Celsius to spot spray for weeds.

The only other thing I'd considered was doing a broadcast of quinclorac to go after the grass-like weeds hiding in my yard. Currently, I have yet to go that route and have stuck with hand brushing with glyphosate when I discover them.


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## Redtenchu

Movingshrub said:


> ...I wanted to know if there was a substitute for any leg of the triangle that would broaden coverage, still be cost effective, and be safe to apply no matter the temp...


I don't want to speak for DFW, but my simple answer is _Nope._ It's simple, and it works.


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## Movingshrub

Redtenchu said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...I wanted to know if there was a substitute for any leg of the triangle that would broaden coverage, still be cost effective, and be safe to apply no matter the temp...
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to speak for DFW, but my simple answer is _Nope._ It's simple, and it works.
Click to expand...

That was my conclusion as well. If someone wanted to spend a bit extra per application, monument in lieu of certainty would pick up a few extra grass-like weeds and still be temp friendly. Also, I think monument is limited to only some warm season grasses.


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## high leverage

"The only other thing I'd considered was doing a broadcast of quinclorac to go after the grass-like weeds hiding in my yard. Currently, I have yet to go that route and have stuck with hand brushing with glyphosate when I discover them."

I would never broadcast spray quinclorac. Combined with a NIS or MSO you will get heavy bleaching of your turf that takes weeks to heal.


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## CH-Johnson

This may have already been answered, but can we definitively say that Certainty does not have temperature restrictions for bermuda, similar to Celsius? I don't see anything on the label, but didn't know if anyone had first hand experience, and I have yet to use it in the heat of the summer in GA.

I was fairly certain this was true, but I told my neighbor I would find out before I gave him a solid answer.


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## dfw_pilot

CH-Johnson said:


> can we definitively say that Certainty does not have temperature restrictions for bermuda, similar to Celsius?


There are no temperature restrictions on the Bermuda Triangle. I've used the Celsius/Certainty combo for two years now in 100°F+ with no problems. If there really were temperature restrictions, it'd be pretty *mean* of me to post otherwise. 

The label lists none, and I take it at its word. There may be some yellowing afterward. This may be caused by the grass already being weak due to external reasons like poor cultural practices or using a poor application method. The grass may be weakened, but the weeds will die.


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## Ware

Agree, and given the choice between sedge or some temporary discoloration/chlorosis, I would rather eliminate the sedge. :thumbup:


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## thegardentool

Can Celsius and Certainty be tanked mixed effectively? I don't think the labels say they can, but I have seen a couple of posts elsewhere that suggest some professionals do it. I do have some areas of widespread outbreaks of both broadleaf and sedge, and probably need to start with a broadcast app over the whole yard once I invest in a good sprayer.


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## dfw_pilot

thegardentool said:


> Can Celsius and Certainty be tanked mixed effectively?


I've mixed the two for the last two seasons with excellent results.


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## Colonel K0rn

Movingshrub said:


> I bought a house where the lawn hadn't been maintained in at least a decade.


I'm in the same boat. My yard has been neglected by my own hand, along with lack of putting any pre-e down, or just proper maintenance. I'm seeing the benefits already by putting down one app of Celsius WG, and taking off a lot of the pressure from the weeds that were all over the lawn. What normally took me 3 hours to edge, trim, mow and blow I completed in 45 minutes... for the 2nd time this week. It's nice to be able to enjoy the mow, and not dread it.

The only other trouble weeds that I can see in any great amount right now is Goosegrass, and Green Kyllinga. I probably have a few other very persistent weeds that I've overlooked, but I'm sure that when I get with the program to put down my pre-emergents, I'll be moving along further to get to overseeding and lawn levelling.


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## slomo

How about goose grass? Any grass weed types, does Celsius kill them off?

I'm starting to use Trimec for broads and glyphosate for the rest. Sedges, goose grass, crab and so on get some glyphosate. I don't have Celsius in my arsenal. Getting yellow spots due to heat. Might as well glyphosate the tough weeds/grasses.

slomo


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## Ware

slomo said:


> I'm starting to use Trimec for broads and glyphosate for the rest.


I would encourage you to do what works best for you, but Trimec is a 2,4-D product, so the label advises against use on desirable turfgrass when air temperatures exceed 85F (i.e. today). Glyphosate is part of the Bermuda Triangle, but it's a last resort.

For someone on a solid pre-e plan (the first leg of the Bermuda Triangle), I think they would be hard-pressed to find anything in their lawn (broadleaf or grassy) that Celsius and Certainty or Sedgehammer wouldn't kill. That's why so many of us here use the approach outlined at the top of this page.



slomo said:


> Sedges... get some glyphosate.


Many report only marginal control/suppression of mature sedge with glyphosate because it is not thoroughly translocated to the underground tubers.

https://youtu.be/apS9uzSqEiE​


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## Movingshrub

I started off with dithiopyr, 2,4-d, sedge hammer, and glyphosate, and am slowly transitioning into the Bermuda Triangle. I've got a section with a bunch of sedges where I am eager to try out Certainity. Also, I am still trying to evaluate granular vs liquid application. Liquid is absolutely a better deal but I want to be able to rotate by chemical method of action, which is a lot easier with granular for me vs having a seven year supply of each liquid pre-em.


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## Colonel K0rn

slomo said:


> How about goose grass? Any grass weed types, does Celsius kill them off?
> 
> I'm starting to use Trimec for broads and glyphosate for the rest. Sedges, goose grass, crab and so on get some glyphosate. I don't have Celsius in my arsenal. Getting yellow spots due to heat. Might as well glyphosate the tough weeds/grasses.
> 
> slomo


After talking to my county extension agent, and having some in-depth conversations with turf professionals, I've decided to go with Dismiss (Sulfentrazone) to handle the goose grass, and the sedge problem(green kyllinga) that I have. I'll let you know the success or failure that I have with that approach. After I get these two dead, I'll be working on my Pre-E applications.


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## high leverage

Colonel K0rn said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> How about goose grass? Any grass weed types, does Celsius kill them off?
> 
> I'm starting to use Trimec for broads and glyphosate for the rest. Sedges, goose grass, crab and so on get some glyphosate. I don't have Celsius in my arsenal. Getting yellow spots due to heat. Might as well glyphosate the tough weeds/grasses.
> 
> slomo
> 
> 
> 
> After talking to my county extension agent, and having some in-depth conversations with turf professionals, I've decided to go with Dismiss (Sulfentrazone) to handle the goose grass, and the sedge problem(green kyllinga) that I have. I'll let you know the success or failure that I have with that approach. After I get these two dead, I'll be working on my Pre-E applications.
Click to expand...

Good call on the Dismiss. I have used it with great success on sedges and goosegrass. Although I can't compare it to Certainty it does far better than Sedgehammer (halosulfuron).


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## vanawesome

Does this same mix also work on cool season grasses like perennial rye? I have that in the front. Also, will the pre-emerge prevent grass seed from germinating if I have some bare spots that need to be filled in?


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## dfw_pilot

Van, the first post has links to the labels which state that these herbicides will kill cool-season grass. Tenacity is probably the best cool-season equivalent but you'll want to research that further in the cool-season section for the best recommendations based on rye grass.

Pre-emergent will often affect grass seed. I recommend starting a cool-season thread asking when to reseed and how to do it with a pre-m regimen. They have more experience with that type of grass and will give you better answers.


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## vanawesome

Thanks pilot!!


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## kur1j

How does Certainty and Celsius compare to quinclorac and Sedge Ender (sulfentrazone+prodiamine)? Both Celsius and Certainty are significantly more expensive than the others. Is there a clear advantage?


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## Ware

kur1j said:


> How does Certainty and Celsius compare to quinclorac and Sedge Ender (sulfentrazone+prodiamine)? Both Celsius and Certainty are significantly more expensive than the others. Is there a clear advantage?


Sulfentrazone is the active ingredient in Dismiss, and should kill sedge. Prodiamine is a pre-emergent herbicide, and is to my knowledge ineffective against sedges.

As for the economics, 16oz of Sedge Ender is $17. That's $1.06/oz. The label says the rate is 5.5oz of product to treat 1,000 ft2[/sup], so that's $5.84 per thousand. The 16oz bottle will treat 2,900 ft[sup]2[/sup].

Certainty is $88 for a 1.25oz (35.44g) bottle. That's $2.48/g. The label says the rate for sedges is 0.8g per 1,000 ft[sup]2[/sup], so that's $1.99 per thousand. The 35.44g bottle will treat 44,300 ft[sup]2 at that rate.

In other words, you would need 15+ bottles of Sedge Ender ($260) to treat as much sedge as one bottle of Certainty ($88). So I would argue that when you say "significantly more expensive", it's actually the other way around in this case.

There is definitely more than one way to implement a successful weed control program, but I can assure you there are reasons so many of us use the products outlined at the top of this thread - economics is one of them. :thumbup:


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## Bunnysarefat

Regarding painting with glyphosate, what is the mixture you (everyone) use to go about this? I have a patch of turf in between retaining walls that is heavily infested with very difficult weeds, such as various types of vines, but very easy to spot treat because it's basically waist-high. I am wondering what members use and have found to be the best mix to paint with, or, if anyone has tested numerous mixes?

Examples could be things like: 50/50 glyphosate/water concentrate with X used as a surfactant.


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## pennstater2005

Bunnysarefat said:


> Regarding painting with glyphosate, what is the mixture you (everyone) use to go about this? I have a patch of turf in between retaining walls that is heavily infested with very difficult weeds, such as various types of vines, but very easy to spot treat because it's basically waist-high. I am wondering what members use and have found to be the best mix to paint with, or, if anyone has tested numerous mixes?
> 
> Examples could be things like: 50/50 glyphosate/water concentrate with X used as a surfactant.


I painted glyphosate earlier in the year and just applied it straight. Wore nitrile gloves and just touched the tip of each blade I was targeting. It worked well. Problem was I had too much and eventually gave up.


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## Bunnysarefat

I've found the straight 41% concentrate doesn't spread well and tends to bead together.


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## kur1j

So after a whole bunch of research and recommendations around here..for my sedges I think I am going to try Dismiss/Monument over Certainty.

For grassy weeds and broadleaf it comes down to Celsius, or a combination of(Quinclorac and 2,4d). A bottle of Celsius is about the same price as Quinclorac + 2,4d. Will the Celsius get me just as much control over Crabgrass,Goosegrass, and the broadleaf stuff as a combination of the quinclorac and the 2,4d?


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## Ware

I prefer Celsius because it has no temp restriction.


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## kur1j

Ware said:


> I prefer Celsius because it has no temp restriction.


Is there a major difference between what the Celsius will control and its effectiveness compared to the combination of the Quinclorac and 2,4d will control especially in crabgrass?


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## Mightyquinn

Ware said:


> I prefer Celsius because it has no temp restriction.


+1


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## Ware

kur1j said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> I prefer Celsius because it has no temp restriction.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a major difference between what the Celsius will control and its effectiveness compared to the combination of the Quinclorac and 2,4d will control especially in crabgrass?
Click to expand...

Coupled with a good pre-e program, I haven't encountered anything that Celsius and Sedgehammer wouldn't kill. :thumbup:


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## kur1j

Ware said:


> Coupled with a good pre-e program, I haven't encountered anything that Celsius and Sedgehammer wouldn't kill. :thumbup:


Well...I just pulled the trigger on Prodiamine and Princep for my preemergence, and Celsius, Dismiss, Monument. The dismiss was expensive, but I've heard it is probably one of the better solutions for Sedges along with Monument (got it really for when I start seeing annual poa, and it was only $20 for enough for spot spraying). At this point, if any weeds get past this, they deserve to live. I appreciate all the help. I'll report back to how much stuff lives...or how much of my yard I kill haha.


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## Suaverc118

Ware, what would you recommend as a post-emergent for my weeds? I'm a little confused with the Bermuda triangle. It says pre-emergent, but can they be used as post as well???


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## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Ware, what would you recommend as a post-emergent for my weeds? I'm a little confused with the Bermuda triangle. It says pre-emergent, but can they be used as post as well???


Celsius for post-emergent control of both broadleaf and grassy weeds. Certainty for the sedges. A good pre-emergent program is just the foundation of the Bermuda Triangle. Maintain a good pre-emergent barrier to keep new weeds from emerging, then use Celsius and Certainty to take care of anything that is actively growing or breaks through the pre-e barrier. The pre-e barrier is important because it will allow you to eventually just spot spray the Celsius and Certainty. :thumbup:


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## Suaverc118

Ware said:


> Suaverc118 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ware, what would you recommend as a post-emergent for my weeds? I'm a little confused with the Bermuda triangle. It says pre-emergent, but can they be used as post as well???
> 
> 
> 
> Celsius for post-emergent control of both broadleaf and grassy weeds. Certainty for the sedges. A good pre-emergent program is just the foundation of the Bermuda Triangle. Maintain a good pre-emergent barrier to keep new weeds from emerging, then use Celsius and Certainty to take care of anything that is actively growing or breaks through the pre-e barrier. The pre-e barrier is important because it will allow you to eventually just spot spray the Celsius and Certainty. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Maaaan, I love you man!!! Ha! 
Do you do any YouTube videos or anything?
Also, I've spoken with the wifey and have explained that although it cost so much, it goes a long way and cost less in the end. I hope it still works with her. Haha.

Have you seen my updated pictures?? If not check them out. Right now we're just getting a lot of rain and my dirt isn't able to dry out in some spots, so I'm a little concerned


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## Suaverc118

If I could only chose 1 for financial reasons and combine with something cheaper for the time being, which would you chose between Celsius and certainty? Sorry for all these questions


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## dfw_pilot

Celsius.


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## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> If I could only chose 1 for financial reasons and combine with something cheaper for the time being, which would you chose between Celsius and certainty? Sorry for all these questions


I agree, for broad spectrum post-emergent control, it's hard to beat the Celsius. That said, the sedge is a real nuisance that I wouldn't want to leave unchecked. This is not the cheapest option ($/ft2[/sup]), but you can buy Sedgehammer Plus in a single use packet for about $10. It contains a surfactant, so all you have to do is mix it up in 1 gallon of water and spot spray up to 1,000 square feet. It is much more expensive to go this route ($/ft[sup]2), but the upfront cost is lower if you don't have a large sedge infestation.

I would also say getting a fall and spring pre-emergent app in would be at the top of my priority list - otherwise you'll be right back in this situation next year. monty is working on a Prodiamine split to help reduce the upfront cost for those with a small lawn.


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## Suaverc118

Can I mix all those or should I wait a certain amount of time after the post emergent is used?


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## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Can I mix all those or should I wait a certain amount of time after the post emergent is used?


I have mixed Celsius and Sedgehammer. I think others have mixed Celsius and Certainty.

I would spray the pre-emergent separately, and it needs 1/2" of rainfall or irrigation after application.


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## Mightyquinn

Suaverc118 said:


> Can I mix all those or should I wait a certain amount of time after the post emergent is used?


I have sprayed Celsius and Prodiamine together with great results. As the Celsius killed any existing weeds and the Prodiamine kept anymore from germinating. I am not sure about adding Certainty to the mix but my gut says it should be fine but I would do a test area first just to be safe. When I have spot sprayed Celsius and Certainty together, I got some mild bleaching/stunted growth of the lawn in those areas. It could have been just me being heavy handed with the mix though.


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## Colonel K0rn

dfw_pilot said:


> Celsius.


+1 with this. You'll be able to handle a lot of weeds with the Celsius and get a lot of them under control and remove the pressure off of the grass. Don't be surprised if you thought you had more grass than you did when the weeds die, and reveal a lot of bare dirt.



Suaverc118 said:


> If I could only chose 1 for financial reasons and combine with something cheaper for the time being, which would you chose between Celsius and certainty? Sorry for all these questions


An alternative that you can use for just sedge control that's pretty inexpensive is Sedgehammer, which comes in a single-use pack, and cost around $11 to mix up 1 gallon of kill juice. TBH, I wasn't really impressed with the results , but YMMV. I sprayed it side-by-side with a sedge filled section of my back yard, and the side that I used Dismiss on got smoked. The Sedgehammer, not so much. Dismiss has the active ingredient of Sulfentrazone. You can get the generic active ingredient for significantly less, but I had the name brand in the shopping cart, and forgot to get the generic. It's pretty potent stuff, and I've been very impressed with it's performance(I've got green kyllinga).

*Edit: I didn't see your post John before I wrote my reply. I was on the prior page.*


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## Ware

Colonel K0rn said:


> *Edit: I didn't see your post John before I wrote my reply. I was on the prior page.*


Great minds... :lol:


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## nagol

Pre-emergent question...What is the general rule about how much pre-emerge to put down? I recently put down Dimension. The bag noted that 3.5 lbs per 1k square ft. for 2-3 months of protection, 4.0-4.7 lbs per 1k sq. ft for 3-4 months, and no more than 9.2 lbs per 1k sq. ft. for the most protection.

Is it a good idea to put down a lot during the fall months and dial back some during the spring, or vice versa? I have a smaller yard (4500 sq ft), so Dimension I think is the best and easiest for me.


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## Ware

nagol said:


> Pre-emergent question...What is the general rule about how much pre-emerge to put down? I recently put down Dimension. The bag noted that 3.5 lbs per 1k square ft. for 2-3 months of protection, 4.0-4.7 lbs per 1k sq. ft for 3-4 months, and no more than 9.2 lbs per 1k sq. ft. for the most protection.
> 
> Is it a good idea to put down a lot during the fall months and dial back some during the spring, or vice versa? I have a smaller yard (4500 sq ft), so Dimension I think is the best and easiest for me.


I don't have much experience with Dithiopyr, but you basically just want an active pre-e barrier during the times when weeds are germinating in your area - without exceeding the max annual rate. I apply Prodiamine at the 6mo rate (half the annual max) in September and March.


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## nagol

Got it. I applied one bag (12 lbs). With 4500 sq ft, that's around 2.66 lbs per 1k. I think one more bag will be fine and should be good till spring.


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## dfw_pilot

nagol said:


> Is it a good idea to put down a lot during the fall months and dial back some during the spring, or vice versa?


I would go with "verse visa". Spring weeds like crabgrass are tougher to get rid of while not hurting your growing grass, so you want a good barrier down then. Winter weeds are easier to nail because your grass is mostly dormant (in the south) and temps are cooler for cheap solutions like 2-4D. So, even rates during spring and fall are best, imo, but if you are going to go heavy at one point, I'd aim for the spring app to be heavier.


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## Suaverc118

What about this? It has the ingredient Sulfentrazone, but not sure if the percentage is enough.
What are y'all still thoughts with MSM as well?

Bonide 16-Ounce Concentrate Sedge Ender Weed Killer - 069 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006MVFSOE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_TqNZzbGGHMHNS


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## Suaverc118

The reason I'm picky with cost right now is that I need to buy 4 new tires for my truck and going to Vegas last of October. So if I can find something comparable then I'm happy. If there is nothing that is close to comparable then ill suck it up


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## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> What about this? It has the ingredient Sulfentrazone, but not sure if the percentage is enough.
> What are y'all still thoughts with MSM as well?
> 
> Bonide 16-Ounce Concentrate Sedge Ender Weed Killer - 069 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B006MVFSOE/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_TqNZzbGGHMHNS


There are dozens of products that kill weeds, but this thread is really dedicated to those outlined in the original post. Feel free to start a new thread about MSM or others you have questions about in the warm season subforum. :thumbup:


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## Suaverc118

Done, thanks.


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## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Done, thanks.


Perfect :thumbup:


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## nagol

dfw_pilot said:


> I would go with "verse visa". Spring weeds like crabgrass are tougher to get rid of while not hurting your growing grass, so you want a good barrier down then. Winter weeds are easier to nail because your grass is mostly dormant (in the south) and temps are cooler for cheap solutions like 2-4D. So, even rates during spring and fall are best, imo, but if you are going to go heavy at one point, I'd aim for the spring app to be heavier.


This is what I was thinking, but leaning toward going heavy on both now. I'm just inundated with crabgrass and goosegrass (I think), that just a heavy dose now and spring will do the trick.


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## SGrabs33

Prodiamine Application - Can this be applied while it is currently raining? I don't think I saw any restrictions on this, just that it needed to be watered in 0.5 inches within 2 weeks of application.


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## g-man

^ yes, long as it is not torrential. It is harder to tell if you overlapped.


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## dfw_pilot

Yeah, it's rained so much here, I went ahead and built an ark in case animals start walking up to the house two by two.


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## Jeremy_c

Mixing instructions for the certainty states to mix at an application rate of 2 gal/1000ft.
I will be using a 1 gallon pump sprayer. So do i calculate the amount of prodiamine and celcius i will mix based on amount/500sq ft??? The more i read the more confused i get. Thanks!


----------



## Jeremy_c

I want to mix all 3 together since i am treating roughly 5000sq ft of yard with a 1 gallon sprayer. So if im correct i will be making 10 batches at a 1 gallon per 500 sq/ft application rate per the instructions for certainty. Right??


----------



## Ware

Jeremy_c said:


> Mixing instructions for the certainty states to mix at an application rate of 2 gal/1000ft.
> I will be using a 1 gallon pump sprayer. So do i calculate the amount of prodiamine and celcius i will mix based on amount/500sq ft??? The more i read the more confused i get. Thanks!





Jeremy_c said:


> I want to mix all 3 together since i am treating roughly 5000sq ft of yard with a 1 gallon sprayer. So if im correct i will be making 10 batches at a 1 gallon per 500 sq/ft application rate per the instructions for certainty. Right??


Welcome to TLF! :thumbup:

I understand what you are wanting to do, and it may work fine for you, just note that:

The Certainty label explicitly calls for 2 gallons of carrier per thousand.

The Celsius label states _"For broadcast applications, use a minimum of 10 gallons of water per acre. For weed control in dense weed populations, control of weeds under adverse growing conditions, or control of mature weeds, higher spray volumes up to 60 gallons per acre should be used."_ I read that as they are not recommending a carrier rate higher than 1.38 gallons per thousand (60 gallons/acre) for broadcast applications.

Both of these labels call for use of a non-ionic surfactant. Prodiamine does not.​
That said, regardless of how much carrier you opt to use, or whether or not you add NIS, the application rates per thousand square feet are:

Certainty: 3, 4, or 5 small scoops (low, med, high)
Celsius: 0.057, 0.085, or 0.113 oz (low, med, high)
Prodiamine 65WDG: 0.83oz ÷ number of apps planned per year​
A couple final thoughts...

1) I make separate pre- and post-emergent herbicide apps because I rarely/never blanket spray post-emergents and I use different spray nozzles optimized for each product.

2) If you are committed to blanket spraying your own Prodiamine, I would highly recommend investing in a backpack sprayer. To be honest, I feel like you are compromising on multiple fronts because you don't have the right equipment for the job.


----------



## Jeremy_c

Thanks for the response. Im just trying to work with what i have as the upfront cost of the bermuda triangle is pretty costly. This quite a bit of information overload and still trying to figure it out.


----------



## Ware

No worries.

I think several people here have mixed Prodiamine and Celsius with satisfactory results. I would consider doing that, then following up with Certainty spot treatments as needed. Do you know what weeds are you targeting? You should start a thread about your lawn in the warm season subforum so you/we can follow your progress and keep track of what you've done.


----------



## Jeremy_c

Im targeting all of them&#128514;&#128514;&#128514;
I havent identified all of it, but i have a bad crabgrass and sedge problem. The broadleaf stuff has been easy in the past with scotts bonus s, but figured id use the good stuff from here on out.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Jeremy_c said:


> Im targeting all of them😂😂😂
> I havent identified all of it, but i have a bad crabgrass and sedge problem. The broadleaf stuff has been easy in the past with scotts bonus s, but figured id use the good stuff from here on out.


Getting your Preemergent(PreM) down now is going to be the best weapon you have to defeat the crabgrass and Certainty will help with the sedges.


----------



## TulsaFan

Can anyone tell me whether the herbicides Celsius or Certainty have expirations?

I think @Mightyquinn confirmed Prodiamine does not expire. I have enough Prodiamine for another 40 years. Does the Celsius and Certainty go as far?

I have seen group splits for PGR. Does anyone ever do group splits for Celsius or Certainty? Or is it not necessary?

Thanks in advance...


----------



## Mightyquinn

You are correct @TulsaFan, I called the manufacturer and they told me it had no expiration date as long as you keep them between 32F and 105F. I assume the same for everything else unless it clearly states somewhere on the label. My bottle of Celsius is about 6 years old now and still works and would assume the same for Certainty too.

I guess it would be up to whoever is buying it on whether they want to do a split or not. I love the stuff just because you can buy it and you always have it on hand to kill any outbreak of weeds you might get. I think the $85 I paid for Celsius back in 2012 has paid for itself many times over.


----------



## TulsaFan

I just ordered both products and I am keeping it all for myself. I like the challenge of more lawn products to hide from the wife.


----------



## Killmeh

Does sedgehammer have a temp restriction?

Also prem, generally put down in March and then September? Using granual dimension here.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Killmeh said:


> Does sedgehammer have a temp restriction?


Just check the label. If it doesn't mention a temperature restriction you'll be fine.


----------



## Trippel24

What's the verdict on sulfentrazone compared to certainty? I have always used sedgehammer in the single packets, but looking at these 2 options.


----------



## Jacob_S

Killmeh said:


> Does sedgehammer have a temp restriction?
> 
> Also prem, generally put down in March and then September? Using granual dimension here.


Not sure if it does, I have used it in the past with little to no issue, but I sprayed some last month and though it did put a good dent in the sedge invasion it did quite a number on my bermuda. I ordered some dismiss to give a try and see if maybe a blanket spray rather than spot treatment will have better results on the sedge. with hopefully less damage to the turf, I will mix in some FEature with it too.


----------



## DSchlauch

TulsaFan said:


> I just ordered both products and I am keeping it all for myself. I like the challenge of more lawn products to hide from the wife.


 :thumbup:


----------



## CenlaLowell

Can anyone tell me would this work with a St Augustine mix? I want to keep the St Augustine also.


----------



## NClawnnut78

Can someone give me more information on temperature restrictions for the chemicals for a blanket application in the yard over 90 degrees. Looking to get as much coverage as possible for anything unseen.


----------



## kah_11

NClawnnut78 said:


> Can someone give me more information on temperature restrictions for the chemicals for a blanket application in the yard over 90 degrees. Looking to get as much coverage as possible for anything unseen.


You'll want to apply MOST chemicals when the temp is below 85° during the drying phase (spray or wetting in). Early morning is your best bet.

We have been well into and over 90-100+° range here in Dallas. I apply everything early (6am) Saturday or Sunday when outside temps are just below 85° and can dry by 10am-ish.

Recently sprayed Sedgehammer and Celsius when daytime temps hit over 100° but application temp was about 83°.


----------



## Lastcall8

I tried to buy Celsius from amazon but they will not ship to me. Where do y'all recommend I buy it at? Also the other herbicides on the triangle. I don't know what weeds I have but know I have weeds. Have latitude 36 down now and it looks pretty healthy overall


----------



## Ahab1997

Lastcall8 said:


> I tried to buy Celsius from amazon but they will not ship to me. Where do y'all recommend I buy it at? Also the other herbicides on the triangle. I don't know what weeds I have but know I have weeds. Have latitude 36 down now and it looks pretty healthy overall


Have you tried here? https://www.lawnandpestcontrolsupply.com/products/celsius-wg-herbicide-10-oz

There are likely some members of this forum that will sell you splits of their stocks of Celsius as well (that's how I got what I'm using now).

You can stop by the Weed ID thread to get some help figuring out what's in your lawn, or check out some YouTube videos. I've found that Jason Creel (aka The Lawn Care Life) has some pretty good "weed ID" videos.


----------



## dfw_pilot

NClawnnut78 said:


> Can someone give me more information on temperature restrictions for the chemicals for a blanket application in the yard over 90 degrees. Looking to get as much coverage as possible for anything unseen.


The herbicides in the Bermuda Triangle don't have temperature restrictions for Bermuda. The hotter it is, the better they work. I've sprayed Celsius and Certainty in 100F+ with no affect to the grass. That's why those herbicides were chosen. With pricey box store hose end stuff over 85F, you'll cook it.

_"Spray at will, Commander."_


----------



## dfw_pilot

Lastcall8 said:


> I tried to buy Celsius from amazon but they will not ship to me. Where do y'all recommend I buy it at? Also the other herbicides on the triangle. I don't know what weeds I have but know I have weeds. Have latitude 36 down now and it looks pretty healthy overall


The links in the original post should work for you, right?

With those herbicides, you don't really need to know what weeds you have, imo.

Welcome to TLF!


----------



## captstoots

Will any of these herbicides effect Zoysia? I have a small patch of zoysia under a tree and want to blanket spray my entire lawn, but I am not sure about the zoysia area...


----------



## dfw_pilot

captstoots said:


> Will any of these herbicides effect Zoysia?


A very quick look at the label says they are safe for Zoysia.


----------



## ThomasPI

TulsaFan said:


> I just ordered both products and I am keeping it all for myself. I like the challenge of more lawn products to hide from the wife.


Very good thread and idea. Prior to laying our sod when the house is ready I'll stock up as well as I want to be prepared. House should be done by March and I'll hit it with PreM.


----------



## Jimefam

Just bought certainty and Celsius and am planning on spraying soon. Temps are 85+ so I should avoid any wetting agent and just mix with water correct?


----------



## hsvtoolfool

I'm about to do the same. I'll blanket spray Celcius and Certainty without non-ionic surfactant (NIS). However, I will use some NIS or even MSO (methylated seed oil) when I spot-treat any remaining virginia buttonweed and florida pusley with Celcius a few weeks later. I'll do the same even later with Certainty for the nutsedge. The wait times are different for the two products. The bermuda will brown up when I spot-spray, but it will recover quickly and the evil, bad weeds will be gone forever! Yeah right.


----------



## Jimefam

I dont have alot of weeds just two patches one maybe 50 feet by 5 feet that recently started growing weeds there because water with dirt from the lot next door came over to my backyard. Where the dirt settled weeds started coming up. And a maybe 10ft by 2 ft area next to the lot next door. I plan on spraying both those areas but not going to do the whole lawn.


----------



## Cdub5_

When using Celsius to spot spray weeds how much do you mix up at one time? What spraying mechanism do you use (i.e. lawn sprayer, squirt bottle etc). Once mixed with water, how long is the shelf life?
I'm a complete newb, sorry


----------



## Mightyquinn

Cdub5_ said:


> When using Celsius to spot spray weeds how much do you mix up at one time? What spraying mechanism do you use (i.e. lawn sprayer, squirt bottle etc). Once mixed with water, how long is the shelf life?
> I'm a complete newb, sorry


Welcome to TLF!!!

When I spot spray I usually use the High rate(3.2grams) in 1 gallon of water with some blue marker dye. When spraying weeds, all you need to do is lightly mist the weed, DO NOT drench the weed as it will discolor the grass around the weed. There is no shelf life for Celsius and you should only mix as much as you are going to use. I usually end up spraying the neighbors lawns on both sides with anything I have left over to help create a buffer zone


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Mightyquinn said:


> Cdub5_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> When using Celsius to spot spray weeds how much do you mix up at one time? What spraying mechanism do you use (i.e. lawn sprayer, squirt bottle etc). Once mixed with water, how long is the shelf life?
> I'm a complete newb, sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to TLF!!!
> 
> I usually end up spraying the neighbors lawns on both sides with anything I have left over to help create a buffer zone
Click to expand...

Do you think an oops I'm sorry and a shoulder shrug will get me by if they both happen to have fescue with lots of weeds? :dunno:


----------



## Mightyquinn

TN Hawkeye said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cdub5_ said:
> 
> 
> 
> When using Celsius to spot spray weeds how much do you mix up at one time? What spraying mechanism do you use (i.e. lawn sprayer, squirt bottle etc). Once mixed with water, how long is the shelf life?
> I'm a complete newb, sorry
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to TLF!!!
> 
> I usually end up spraying the neighbors lawns on both sides with anything I have left over to help create a buffer zone
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you think an oops I'm sorry and a shoulder shrug will get me by if they both happen to have fescue with lots of weeds? :dunno:
Click to expand...

I wasn't aware the neighbors had Fescue


----------



## TN Hawkeye

Mightyquinn said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to TLF!!!
> 
> I usually end up spraying the neighbors lawns on both sides with anything I have left over to help create a buffer zone
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think an oops I'm sorry and a shoulder shrug will get me by if they both happen to have fescue with lots of weeds? :dunno:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I wasn't aware the neighbors had Fescue
Click to expand...

Good call. I am pretty new to all this grass stuff. :thumbup:


----------



## ktgrok

Are there any less expensive options for those of us that can't shell out $100 for Celcius right away? It will be a bit until I can spray for weeds on the new lawn but when I do I don't know that I'll have the cash for Celcius. Any other starter/budget friendly suggestions for me for the rest of this season, with the idea that I'll have the cash next season?


----------



## Ware

ktgrok said:


> Are there any less expensive options for those of us that can't shell out $100 for Celcius right away? It will be a bit until I can spray for weeds on the new lawn but when I do I don't know that I'll have the cash for Celcius. Any other starter/budget friendly suggestions for me for the rest of this season, with the idea that I'll have the cash next season?


I would check out the Celsius WG Exchange thread and see if someone has a small quantity for sale.


----------



## Hexadecimal 00FF00

ktgrok said:


> Are there any less expensive options for those of us that can't shell out $100 for Celcius right away? It will be a bit until I can spray for weeds on the new lawn but when I do I don't know that I'll have the cash for Celcius. Any other starter/budget friendly suggestions for me for the rest of this season, with the idea that I'll have the cash next season?


@ktgrok check out https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2408.


----------



## greg_n_sd

How long should I expect it to take for the weeds to show signs of dying? I sprayed them about 4 days ago, then the auto sprinkers came on about 8 hours later, and I'm wondering if I need to spray them again. Thanks!


----------



## dfw_pilot

A week or two. Longer when it's cooler, faster when it's hot.


----------



## flynavy812

Maybe should have asked in here before creating a thread. Is it ok to mix 2, d-4 and sedgehammer to take care of a ton of nut sedge as well as some braodleaf? I only need a few teaspoons of the 2, 4-d for the effective rate so it seems like a no brainer to throw that into the mix.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Probably ok to mix, but your new thread is indeed probably best to keep this thread on topic. Cheers


----------



## flynavy812

dfw_pilot said:


> Probably ok to mix, but your new thread is indeed probably best to keep this thread on topic. Cheers


Understood, thanks! A lot of pilots on here I've noticed..


----------



## TalonII

Can Celsius be applied when grass is wet? I may be over looking it but can't find a clear answer.


----------



## jakemauldin

TalonII said:


> Can Celsius be applied when grass is wet? I may be over looking it but can't find a clear answer.


Found this on the DomyOwn site for Celsius
CELSIUS WG Herbicide is a postemergent foliar-applied herbicide containing three active ingredients that provide a broad spectrum of weed control. This product is intended for use on residential lawns, commercial lawns, golf courses, sports fields, parks, campsites, recreational areas, residential lawns, roadsides, school grounds, cemeteries, sod farms to control annual and perennial broadleaf weeds and grasses in warm-season turf types listed on this label.
WEED SYMPTOMS
Weed growth ceases within hours after application. Symptoms progress from yellowing to necrosis resulting in plant death within 1-4 weeks after application. The speed of symptom development varies with temperature and will be faster at warmer temperatures. For best results to control mature weeds, apply when the daily average temperature is above 60° F. Make applications to actively growing weeds. Weed control may be reduced if application is made in the presence of heavy dew, fog, and mist/rain or when weeds are under stress due to drought.


----------



## TalonII

@jakemauldin thanks!


----------



## MrTophatJones

So I had been spraying what I believed to be crabgrass with Quinclorac I had on hand with no success. I realized this might be carpet grass rather than crabgrass so I bit the bullet and bought Celsius. Is it too late to apply this season, or should I go ahead and spray to kill it ASAP? I think carpetgrass will just go dormant and return next spring/summer rather than dying off, correct? It's above 90 here every day this week, should I spray it in the evening when temps cool off?

The worst patch of the offending weed:


----------



## dfw_pilot

MrTophatJones said:


> It's above 90 here every day this week, should I spray it in the evening when temps cool off?


The original post mentions that there are no temperature restrictions for using Celsius. As a matter of fact, the hotter it is the better it works. I may be misunderstanding your question, however.


----------



## calebbo

MrTophatJones said:


> So I had been spraying what I believed to be crabgrass with Quinclorac I had on hand with no success. I realized this might be carpet grass rather than crabgrass so I bit the bullet and bought Celsius. Is it too late to apply this season, or should I go ahead and spray to kill it ASAP? I think carpetgrass will just go dormant and return next spring/summer rather than dying off, correct? It's above 90 here every day this week, should I spray it in the evening when temps cool off?
> 
> The worst patch of the offending weed:


It's never too late to apply Celsius when you see a weed that isn't a sedge.

I just sprayed some earlier and it's over 100 degrees here.

Send it.


----------



## MrTophatJones

dfw_pilot said:


> MrTophatJones said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's above 90 here every day this week, should I spray it in the evening when temps cool off?
> 
> 
> 
> The original post mentions that there are no temperature restrictions for using Celsius. As a matter of fact, the hotter it is the better it works. I may be misunderstanding your question, however.
Click to expand...

Ah, I missed that. I thought I'd seen some discussion about waiting for cooler temperatures in the morning or evening. The guy at SiteOne recommended against it. Would you recommend waiting til peak day time temperatures to spray in that case, or just go ahead and spray tonight before it gets dark?


----------



## dfw_pilot

Spray whenever it's convenient for you. There are many herbicides (especially hose end type stuff) that have temperature restrictions, but the beauty of the Bermuda Triangle is you can spray it anytime of year.


----------



## MrTophatJones

It's getting dark, tomorrow it is. I don't have NIS on hand, can I substitute palmolive dish soap or do I need to order some on prime or just leave it out?


----------



## Redtwin

I wouldn't use NIS when temps are higher. Celsius is OK to spray when hotter but adding a surfactant can stress Bermuda.


----------



## MrTophatJones

Ah right the label says not to use spray adjuvants at temperatures above 90. I misunderstood this as not to spray above 90. TIL what an adjuvant is. Thanks redtwin and dfw. Broadcast at the high rate without NIS over ~3000sqft mainly to control carpetgrass and lespedeza.


----------



## david_

dfw_pilot said:


> thegardentool said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Celsius and Certainty be tanked mixed effectively?
> 
> 
> 
> I've mixed the two for the last two seasons with excellent results.
Click to expand...

Certainty asks for 2gal/1k sqft. Celsius doesn't like more than 1.3gal / 1k sqft.

Because you're getting results, curious are you mixing 1 or 2 gallons per 1k sqft?


----------



## dfw_pilot

david_ said:


> dfw_pilot said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thegardentool said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can Celsius and Certainty be tanked mixed effectively?
> 
> 
> 
> I've mixed the two for the last two seasons with excellent results.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Certainty asks for 2gal/1k sqft. Celsius doesn't like more than 1.3gal / 1k sqft.
> 
> Because you're getting results, curious are you mixing 1 or 2 gallons per 1k sqft?
Click to expand...

I feel like this has already been addressed, either up the thread or in other threads. ETA: This will help.

I only _spot spray_ so I've used both the label dose of Certainty and a "half dose" in only one gallon and killed the sedge. The health of your lawn, the size of the weeds, etc, will vary probably vary the results.

For the litigious among us, separate applications _might_ work better.


----------



## Goose165

Hello Newbie here.

We installed new Empire Zoysia last year (about 5,000 sq ft) and it all looked great for a while (we're in Central FL). We hire someone to take care of spraying our yard but it doesn't seem like they know what they are doing (most people have St. Augustine around here, so I think they are treating our lawn the same), therefore I'm going to take over, I don't know much but I'm willing to learn.

We have tons of weeds and grub issues. I understand the Post-E, and will be buying some Certainty and Celsius ASAP.

My question is this:

What month should I be laying down some good Pre-E (Prodiamine)? It's now mid April, is it too late?

Also, if I treat for grubs, can I still treat for weeds? or how long should I wait in between? Which should I do first, weed or grubs?

Thanks!


----------



## dfw_pilot

Goose165 said:


> My question is this:
> 
> What month should I be laying down some good Pre-E (Prodiamine)? It's now mid April, is it too late?
> 
> Also, if I treat for grubs, can I still treat for weeds? or how long should I wait in between? Which should I do first, weed or grubs?
> 
> Thanks!


Probably best to start a new thread for your questions, but welcome to TLF! Prodiamine is great, and what I do is divide the annual max by two, and put it out twice a year. Feb/Mar and Aug/Sep. Use a meat thermometer and check for soil temps to be below ~ 60 degrees or so and put it out. Ultimately, if you get year round coverage, it doesn't matter when you put it down. But it's best to have the strongest AI coverage during the peak weed sprouting seasons.

Treat for grubs with GrubEx. I put it down mid April. It won't affect any weed control - it's a granule that absorbs into the soil.


----------



## Goose165

dfw_pilot said:


> Goose165 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My question is this:
> 
> What month should I be laying down some good Pre-E (Prodiamine)? It's now mid April, is it too late?
> 
> Also, if I treat for grubs, can I still treat for weeds? or how long should I wait in between? Which should I do first, weed or grubs?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably best to start a new thread for your questions, but welcome to TLF! Prodiamine is great, and what I do is divide the annual max by two, and put it out twice a year. Feb/Mar and Aug/Sep. Use a meat thermometer and check for soil temps to be below ~ 60 degrees or so and put it out. Ultimately, if you get year round coverage, it doesn't matter when you put it down. But it's best to have the strongest AI coverage during the peak weed sprouting seasons.
> 
> Treat for grubs with GrubEx. I put it down mid April. It won't affect any weed control - it's a granule that absorbs into the soil.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick response! I will try that.


----------



## A to Zoysia

What did you end up doing?


----------



## pschattle15

So I am planning on putting down some Prodiamine for the first time using a pre-emergent. My lawn is about 3,900sf in size. My question is do y'all prefer to use Prodiamine 65 WDG mixed in a tank sprayer or has anyone used a granule prodiamine that is broadcast through a Scotts broadcast spreader? I have a 2 gal tank sprayer and a scotts broadcast sprayer so I could do either, just trying to get an idea of application method that people have used? Is it wrong to use a 2 gal spray tank to broadcast spray my entire lawn? I dont have any kind of towable/pushable spray rig for the lawn. thanks for the info.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

pschattle15 said:


> So I am planning on putting down some Prodiamine for the first time using a pre-emergent. My lawn is about 3,900sf in size. My question is do y'all prefer to use Prodiamine 65 WDG mixed in a tank sprayer or has anyone used a granule prodiamine that is broadcast through a Scotts broadcast spreader? I have a 2 gal tank sprayer and a scotts broadcast sprayer so I could do either, just trying to get an idea of application method that people have used? Is it wrong to use a 2 gal spray tank to broadcast spray my entire lawn? I dont have any kind of towable/pushable spray rig for the lawn. thanks for the info.


I use Prodiamine 65 WDG in my pushable sprayer, which uses Tee Jet tips. You'd be just fine using a 2 gallon sprayer as long as you're calibrated and know what kind of rate you'd be spraying at. Just practice with some water to make sure that you're putting down the right amount of product when you use a hand can. It's honestly whatever you're comfortable using and what you can afford. If my spray rig broke, I'd be out there doing it with my 2 gallon sprayer, it'd just take me longer to do it.


----------



## Ware

pschattle15 said:


> So I am planning on putting down some Prodiamine for the first time using a pre-emergent. My lawn is about 3,900sf in size. My question is do y'all prefer to use Prodiamine 65 WDG mixed in a tank sprayer or has anyone used a granule prodiamine that is broadcast through a Scotts broadcast spreader? I have a 2 gal tank sprayer and a scotts broadcast sprayer so I could do either, just trying to get an idea of application method that people have used? Is it wrong to use a 2 gal spray tank to broadcast spray my entire lawn? I dont have any kind of towable/pushable spray rig for the lawn. thanks for the info.


Prodiamine 65 WDG is cheaper in the long run, but granular Prodiamine would not be cost prohibitive for your size lawn.


----------



## KSwiss0728

I know it has come up before, but wanted to see what people's experiences have been...

I wanted to put down Celsius tomorrow before I leave town for a few days, but we've had about 4+ inches of rain here the last few days and there is a chance of thunderstorms tomorrow afternoon. So if I put it down tomorrow morning I'd be applying to wet grass and would hopefully have about 6 hours between application and possible rain.

Is it worth applying in this situation? Would adding an NIS help?

Thanks!


----------



## Jeremy3292

Can anyone provide the best way to use these products on your entire lawn? Just walk around with a tank sprayer and spray the entire yard with celsius and certainty?


----------



## bushwacked

This is a beautiful triangle! I am in major need or work in the back yard if you saw my other post in southern lawns section ...

I will definitely be working through this soon in the back yard. Glad to see there are no temp issues. I missed Pre-E season so I will be going to Celsius / certainty right away then

Thanks for the great post!


----------



## dfw_pilot

KSwiss0728 said:


> if I put it down So tomorrow morning I'd be applying to wet grass and would hopefully have about 6 hours between application and possible rain.


The label says that it needs to dry on the plant before rain, so depending on humidity, that may not be long enough, but you'll have to judge that.



Jeremy3292 said:


> Can anyone provide the best way to use these products on your entire lawn? Just walk around with a tank sprayer and spray the entire yard with celsius and certainty?


Check out the sprayers section of the Equipment forum for spraying options. These are high powered herbicides that require exacting doses, so be careful. Unless your yard is mostly weeds, blanket spraying may not be needed.



bushwacked said:


> This is a beautiful triangle!
> Thanks for the great post!


 :thumbup:


----------



## Jeremy3292

dfw_pilot said:


> Jeremy3292 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can anyone provide the best way to use these products on your entire lawn? Just walk around with a tank sprayer and spray the entire yard with celsius and certainty?
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the sprayers section of the Equipment forum for spraying options. These are high powered herbicides that require exacting doses, so be careful. Unless your yard is mostly weeds, blanket spraying may not be needed.
> 
> :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Could you mix in a handheld spray bottle for spot treatments? Like a regular cleaning bottle you see janitors use to spray cleaning solution.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Jeremy3292 said:


> Could you mix in a handheld spray bottle for spot treatments?


I suppose you _could_ but I wouldn't recommend it, especially as a long term solution. You can always try it and report back.


----------



## Che98008

Thanks for all the good insight everyone.

I know that this is dedicated to Bermuda grass, but could the Bermuda Triangle be used on Zoysia and St: Augustine?

I live in DFW, TX-soil temps are at 80F and it's hitting mid to high 80s.

I'm dying to treat my my weeds-today I applied Scott's diseaseX for brown patch on the st Augustine and Zoysia; also GrubbX for moles...but haven't applied weed killer (I canceled the weed service 1 month ago).

Thank you!


----------



## dfw_pilot

All three sides of the Bermuda Triangle are good on St. Aug and Zoysia per their labels.


----------



## Greendoc

Only adjustments I would make are regarding N levels for both St Augustine and Zoysia. N levels may also be rather high for reel low Bermuda as well.


----------



## bushwacked

How long do you give before spraying between the 2? Celsius and Certainty ... like would you do 1 one day and then do the other a day or 2 later? Or will you need a bigger gap ...


----------



## DuncanMcDonuts

It's common to mix them together and spray at the same time. Then treat again after 2 weeks to spray what you missed or is still alive. Celsius is on the slow side to kill and sedges die slowly, too.


----------



## Philly_Gunner

@dfw_pilot what is your opinion of Monument for bermuda? Could it be used as a stand-alone instead of the Celsius/Certainty combo? It's listed for all sedges, clover and most broadleaf.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Philly_Gunner said:


> @dfw_pilot what is your opinion of Monument for bermuda? Could it be used as a stand-alone instead of the Celsius/Certainty combo? It's listed for all sedges, clover and most broadleaf.


At first glance, it seems pricey and didn't have a very large list of weeds it controlled.

Check around and do the math on price per app and see if it compares favorably - it might, especially if you split a purchase with others. If it fits your bill, go for it!


----------



## dfw_pilot

I will add too -

The Bermuda Triangle is a suggestion that has worked well for me and others for years. Can other options work?

Absolutely.

People have offered lots of alternatives over the years. That's great. Just remember there are lots of options out there.

Always compare weed control, effectiveness, temp and rain restrictions, and cost per app to get an apples to apples comparison.

I haven't found a lower cost per app solution that covers as many weeds, with as few restrictions, than the original post, but new stuff comes out all the time, and prices change too.

Sometimes, one doesn't need to cover 100 different weeds because specific lawns suffer specific problems. So, always target your own specific issues. But overall, I'm happy with the Celsius, Certainty/Sedgehammer, Prodiamine approach.

Cheers!


----------



## bushwacked

dfw_pilot said:


> Sometimes, one doesn't need to cover 100 different weeds because specific lawns suffer specific problems. So, always target your own specific issues. But overall, I'm happy with the Celsius, Certainty/Sedgehammer, Prodiamine approach.
> 
> Cheers!


Assuming you built your own spray wand ... I am curious what specific teejet tips you use for for Celsius, Certainty and then prodiamine?


----------



## dfw_pilot

bushwacked said:


> Assuming you built your own spray wand ... I am curious what specific teejet tips you use for for Celsius, Certainty and then prodiamine?


I use these tips for spot spraying the Triangle herbicides, and I use an Earthway S15 for Prodiamine. Cheers!


----------



## bushwacked

dfw_pilot said:


> bushwacked said:
> 
> 
> 
> Assuming you built your own spray wand ... I am curious what specific teejet tips you use for for Celsius, Certainty and then prodiamine?
> 
> 
> 
> I use these tips for spot spraying the Triangle herbicides, and I use an Earthway S15 for Prodiamine. Cheers!
Click to expand...

Thanks!

Doing some math ... which doesnt always turn out as good as I hope  ... do these numbers look about right?



Also what nonionoic surfactant agent do you use with Certainty? Or is it only recommended and not 100% needed?


----------



## dfw_pilot

Those seem right, but I don't have the labels in front of me. Make sure and use a gram scale as they're ~ $10 on AMZN. I bought some cheap surfactant at SiteOne that has lasted for years and I just add a "LAR" amount.


----------



## bushwacked

dfw_pilot said:


> Those seem right, but I don't have the labels in front of me. Make sure and use a gram scale as they're ~ $10 on AMZN. I bought some cheap surfactant at SiteOne that has lasted for years and I just add a "LAR" amount.


ok thanks!

going to pick up gram scale and found this surfactant on AMZN as well .. https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Surfactant-Herbicides-Non-Ionic/dp/B004XDHRCE have seen it around a few places so seems ok?


----------



## Jeremy3292

It looks like for certainty and celsius you mix X amount of product with a gallon of water into a tank sprayer to spot treat areas. 1 gallon of mix generally treats 1,000 sq ft; that's a rather large area. Do you just throw away whatever is leftover in your tank sprayer?


----------



## bushwacked

going through creating my maintenance sheet for the year ... I was curious ...

For PRODIAMINE 65 .. do you find best results hitting max level with a one time spray or spraying, in my case March 20th, about half and then waiting 6-8 weeks and spraying the 2nd half?


----------



## Jeremy3292

bushwacked said:


> going through creating my maintenance sheet for the year ... I was curious ...
> 
> For PRODIAMINE 65 .. do you find best results hitting max level with a one time spray or spraying, in my case March 20th, about half and then waiting 6-8 weeks and spraying the 2nd half?


Definitely half and half. Heavy rain causes PreM leaching. I always do two apps in the fall and two apps in the early spring.


----------



## bushwacked

Jeremy3292 said:


> bushwacked said:
> 
> 
> 
> going through creating my maintenance sheet for the year ... I was curious ...
> 
> For PRODIAMINE 65 .. do you find best results hitting max level with a one time spray or spraying, in my case March 20th, about half and then waiting 6-8 weeks and spraying the 2nd half?
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely half and half. Heavy rain causes PreM leaching. I always do two apps in the fall and two apps in the early spring.
Click to expand...

oh so you do 4 total? How far apart from each other in the spring and fall?

Also do you prefer to spray or use granulates?



Found that, which out of the bad is rated at roughly half the yearly dose per 1000sq ft.


----------



## Jeremy3292

I do not like sprays, but you will find a lot of people on here who do. I use Andersons 0.426% 0-0-7 Barricade (Prodiamine). I like split apps more personally because you can then be sure to catch any potentially areas you may have missed on the second app. Plus like I said, if you have a wet winter or early spring, PreM can leach. Generally here in SC I do Sept 15, Nov 1, March 1, April 15.


----------



## jeff+-54

How long should a person wait to mow after applying certainty?


----------



## srogue

I was just out in my garage and the temperature was 98 degrees. This made me wonder if any of the chemicals in the bermuda triangle were susceptible to degrading over a certain temperature. Does anyone out there know? I currently have Prodiamine, Certainty/Outrider, and Celsius.


----------



## dfw_pilot

That's probably not something we could know for sure without talking to the manufacturers. But I've not been able to notice any loss of efficacy at those temps. If your are concerned you could put them in a utility room.


----------



## Ware

srogue said:


> I was just out in my garage and the temperature was 98 degrees. This made me wonder if any of the chemicals in the bermuda triangle were susceptible to degrading over a certain temperature. Does anyone out there know? I currently have Prodiamine, Certainty/Outrider, and Celsius.


Not sure, but I store most of my lawn chemicals (like anything I plan on having for more than one season) in conditioned space - just to be safe on the safe side.


----------



## srogue

Ware said:


> srogue said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was just out in my garage and the temperature was 98 degrees. This made me wonder if any of the chemicals in the bermuda triangle were susceptible to degrading over a certain temperature. Does anyone out there know? I currently have Prodiamine, Certainty/Outrider, and Celsius.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure, but I store most of my lawn chemicals (like anything I plan on having for more than one season) in conditioned space - just to be safe on the safe side.
Click to expand...

Good idea, both of you. Thanks.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

I planted my Arden 15 lawn from seed 32 days ago. I got really good germination and growth but as is expected I've got a ton of quick germinating weeds competing. I've got pigweed, nutsedge, crab grass, goose grass, ragweed, and some other broadleaf weeds. I'm planning my first mow this weekend and a second mow the following weekend, then a couple of days later I'd like to broadcast spray a Celsius / Certainty mix from a hose end sprayer. I'm confident in my rate calculation and application precision. Does anyone here advise against this or offer better alternatives? My concern is the age of the lawn, but also the interruption in lawn thickening due to the competition from weeds. hand pulling and spot spraying not really an option due to the density of weeds.


----------



## dfw_pilot

WarDamnLawn said:


> I'm confident in my rate calculation and application precision.


This one line gives me a lot of pause.



WarDamnLawn said:


> Does anyone here advise against this or offer better alternatives?


I'd recommend using a more precise sprayer.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

dfw_pilot said:


> WarDamnLawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confident in my rate calculation and application precision.
> 
> 
> 
> This one line gives me a lot of pause.
Click to expand...

It'd be the Chapin adjustable rate hose end sprayer, I'm an engineer who works in herbicide application so after recording some data on my particular sprayer (actual carrier flow rate and actual chemical uptake rate), calibrating my recipe and application speed, segmenting my yard and timing my application through each segment, I can be precise enough for my needs while saving $300. I don't however have experience with these particular turf specialty herbicides.


----------



## Spammage

@WarDamnLawn it sounds like you have this figured out, but I don't know how effective these herbicides will be if not applied as a foliar application. I'm guessing that is what brought pause to dfw_pilot as well. If you are counting on root uptake only, then the product use rates might have to be significantly higher than labeled for efficacy, but there is no way to know what that might be since the label calls for foliar application.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

Thank you @dfw_pilot for the edit, @spammage I neglected to mention the inclusion of a surfactant which would aid in foliar uptake. Yes my intention is for foliar application.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

I think if none of the seasoned professionals in this thread see this as an immediate red flag scenario, I will contribute to the forum and proceed as planned and document and report results back to the community.


----------



## Rooster

WarDamnLawn said:


> I think if none of the seasoned professionals in this thread see this as an immediate red flag scenario, I will contribute to the forum and proceed as planned and document and report results back to the community.


I wish you luck and I'm anxious to see your results. It would make me very, very nervous to do this since I know my hose-end applications are not consistent enough for herbicides. But if you prove it possible, that would be useful indeed.


----------



## Redtwin

Neither product is labeled for hose-end spraying (probably for a very good reason).

Both product labels specifically state to not apply by way of an irrigation system.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

You guys have been successful in dissuading me from hose end spraying, which is what you're here for after all. I'm going to build a franken boom rig.


----------



## Ware

WarDamnLawn said:


> You guys have been successful in dissuading me from hose end spraying, which is what you're here for after all. I'm going to build a franken boom rig.


I don't think you'll regret it. :thumbsup:


----------



## Brou

Reading the lable for Celcius it says the high rate is required for "Large Crabgrass." Is that a particular species or a size? I have small crabgrass. But is it small Large Crabgrass?

If it's a size not a species will the medium or low rate take care of small crabgrass?


----------



## Redtwin

WarDamnLawn said:


> You guys have been successful in dissuading me from hose end spraying, which is what you're here for after all. I'm going to build a franken boom rig.


If you are building your own then check out the DFW Wand, that is unless you are talking about building a Tow Behind Sprayer.


----------



## WarDamnLawn

Redtwin said:


> WarDamnLawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> You guys have been successful in dissuading me from hose end spraying, which is what you're here for after all. I'm going to build a franken boom rig.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are building your own then check out the DFW Wand, that is unless you are talking about building a Tow Behind Sprayer.
Click to expand...

I'll be mounting a 3 nozzle boom to an old gear-select riding mower I have, using a North Star tank and pump and teejet nozzles


----------



## Brou

Does anyone mix their Celsius apps with a PGR, particularly t-nex?


----------



## Ware

Kamauxx said:


> Does anyone mix their Celsius apps with a PGR, particularly t-nex?


It should work fine. I wouldn't add any additional surfactant.


----------



## Brou

Ware said:


> Kamauxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone mix their Celsius apps with a PGR, particularly t-nex?
> 
> 
> 
> It should work fine. I wouldn't add any additional surfactant.
Click to expand...

Thanks. My Celsius was actually delivered yesterday, a few days early so I applied it without the PGR.

Unfortunately, I may have been slightly intoxicated when I sprayed the lawn at 10 pm yesterday. I couldn't find the correct rate for MSO per 1k so after finding the pint per acre rates I did some drunk math and used what I now realize was roughly DOUBLE the rate required (I used nearly 8 ounces for 3k sq ft).

What happens when too much MSO is put down with Celsius. (temps were in the high 70s, so at least there's that...)


----------



## Redtwin

Kamauxx said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kamauxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone mix their Celsius apps with a PGR, particularly t-nex?
> 
> 
> 
> It should work fine. I wouldn't add any additional surfactant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks. My Celsius was actually delivered yesterday, a few days early so I applied it without the PGR.
> 
> Unfortunately, I may have been slightly intoxicated when I sprayed the lawn at 10 pm yesterday. I couldn't find the correct rate for MSO per 1k so after finding the pint per acre rates I did some drunk math and used what I now realize was roughly DOUBLE the rate required (I used nearly 8 ounces for 3k sq ft).
> 
> What happens when too much MSO is put down with Celsius. (temps were in the high 70s, so at least there's that...)
Click to expand...

You must have misunderstood @Ware's suggestion of not adding any surfactant. MSO is a surfactant. If you sprayed at 10PM you will probably be OK. If you overapplied the MSO, you should be fine. I don't believe there is any harm in overapplying surfactants other than being wasteful. If you appied Celsius at 8 oz for 3,000sf, you are in for a world of hurt.


----------



## Brou

Redtwin said:


> Kamauxx said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> It should work fine. I wouldn't add any additional surfactant.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. My Celsius was actually delivered yesterday, a few days early so I applied it without the PGR.
> 
> Unfortunately, I may have been slightly intoxicated when I sprayed the lawn at 10 pm yesterday. I couldn't find the correct rate for MSO per 1k so after finding the pint per acre rates I did some drunk math and used what I now realize was roughly DOUBLE the rate required (I used nearly 8 ounces for 3k sq ft).
> 
> What happens when too much MSO is put down with Celsius. (temps were in the high 70s, so at least there's that...)
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You must have misunderstood @Ware's suggestion of not adding any surfactant. MSO is a surfactant. If you sprayed at 10PM you will probably be OK. If you overapplied the MSO, you should be fine. I don't believe there is any harm in overapplying surfactants other than being wasteful. If you appied Celsius at 8 oz for 3,000sf, you are in for a world of hurt.
Click to expand...

I thought he was saying not to add surfactant if applying both together. Since I applied the Celsius without T-Nex and temps were under 85 degrees I added the MSO. I applied 7 grams of Celsius. I wasn't drunk enough to dump $100 worth of herbicide onto the lawn. :lol:

I was hoping I hadn't messed up too much. Thanks for calming my nerves.


----------



## onebadrubi

what is the approx total sq ft covered by a bottle of celsius and certainty?


----------



## Ware

onebadrubi said:


> what is the approx total sq ft covered by a bottle of celsius and certainty?


The Celsius high rate is 0.113 oz/M, so a 10oz bottle will treat about 88,500 sq ft (~2 acres) at the high rate.

The Certainty rate for sedges is like 1.25 oz/acre, so a 1.25 oz bottle will treat about 1 acre (43,560 sq ft).


----------



## Brou

Question about Celsius max rates.

About a month ago I sprayed my front lawn at the high rate. Around a couple of weeks later I sprayed the back yard at the low rate (to nuke some tall fescue).

Does that mean I can now spray the back at the heavy rate and front at the low rate? Or am I considered to already be at the max rate? :?

I don't know if the rates are for managing turf health or pollution/runoff concerns. I suppose if it's about pollution/runoff I'm done until next year.


----------



## Spammage

@Kamauxx you are fine.


----------



## Redtwin

@Kamauxx, if you are doing a blanket app then the max rate applies to each 1000sf or whatever measure you use. In your example, you could now do a low-rate app on the front and a high-rate app on the back to meet your annual max.


----------



## Brou

That makes sense. Thanks!


----------



## Deltahedge

Have you all noticed that celsius is getting harder and harder to find, or is it just me?


----------



## mjh648

@jspearm1983 I got mine from Forestry Distributing. Was pretty easy. I think there are some companies like DoMyOwn that just stopped carrying it.


----------



## Newandconfused

Ok so I just read the Bermuda Triangle, as well as the entire lable for Certainty and have 3 questions.

1. Do you choose 1 of the first 3 choices in the Triangle?

2. I noticed that it says 2 gal per 1k sqft, if I'm attempting to 2700 sqft should I buy a bigger than 4 gal backpack or should I just cover the area with the 4 gal?

3. How do you clean your tank when you're finished with the treatment?

Also I was told the weeds that I have are a type of sedge and Carolina geranium.


----------



## Goose165

Can I apply Celcius, Certainty and Prodiamine all at the same time? Same mix?


----------



## rjw0283

Goose165 said:


> Can I apply Celcius, Certainty and Prodiamine all at the same time? Same mix?


Yup


----------



## Mightyquinn

Goose165 said:


> Can I apply Celcius, Certainty and Prodiamine all at the same time? Same mix?


I answered the same question HERE the other day.


----------



## Jeremy3292

What does everyone do for goosegrass? Celsius and Certainty will not kill it, correct?


----------



## gooodawgs

@Jeremy3292 I use Dismiss for goose grass. It worked great. I'd go mid-rate, it's pretty strong


----------



## crstude

gooodawgs said:


> @Jeremy3292 I use Dismiss for goose grass. It worked great. I'd go mid-rate, it's pretty strong


Revolver is another more pricey option, but does a good job on the goose in high temps.


----------



## Jeremy3292

@crstude @gooodawgs

After I posted my question I did some more research and it looks like Image All In One Weed Killer AI are Sulfentrazone and Quinclorac. A 24 oz concentrate bottle is $20 at Lowes...I may use that this in the coming months for my goosegrass and sedges as it is cheap and has the same AI's as Solitaire herbicide (and sulfentrazone like Dismiss).


----------



## Mewwwda

@Jeremy3292 I tried the Celsius/Certainty combo on my goosegrass last year and it didn't touch it.

I had a massive infestation and ended up buying Sulfentrazone. I spot sprayed probably close to 100 weeds in Aug when it was 95° outside. It absolutely smoked them. Two days later they were almost white and completely dead. In a few spots I did had some damage to my Arden, but for the most part only the weed itself died. I'm sure mostly from mix of overspray and/or mixing it a little too hot. Overall it was worth it.

Take all this for what you will because in no way am I any kind of expert. I learned a ton last year and I guess that's what it's all about? This was just my experience.


----------



## cldrunner

Certainty and Celsius are not labeled for Goosegrass. Sulfentrazone is actually labeled as a pre and post emergent for Goosegrass. @Jeremy3292 Sulfrentrazone would be less expensive as a 6oz bottle will cover 30K sq ft. at 0.20 oz per 1000.

https://www.seedranch.com/Sulfentrazone-4L-Herbicide-6-oz-p/sufentrzone4l-select-6.htm

The Image will require repeat applications. So will the Sulfentrazone.


----------



## bushwacked

I put down Celsius and Certainty this morning ... A few Questions ...

1) How long till dogs and kids are safe to play in the grass? I was going to keep them all out a few days, kids are into soccer so rolling a ball through it all and then grabbing with hands then putting them in their mouths seems like a bad thing haha

2) Watering on Wednesday will be ok or do I need to skip that day? (label on one of them says wait 2-3 days, forgot which one)

3) If I sprayed some bark with it, and my dog eats it later in the week, is he going to get sick/die? He likes that damn stuff and I cant keep him out.

Thoughts?

Hoping to see lots of brown with all these weeds!!


----------



## DFWdude

Will Sulfentrazone nuke rescue grass too?


----------



## cldrunner

DFWdude said:


> Will Sulfentrazone nuke rescue grass too?


It is not labeled for it as best I can tell.


----------



## cldrunner

@bushwacked

From the Celsius label: 12. Do not allow people or pets to enter the treated areas until sprays have dried.


----------



## bushwacked

cldrunner said:


> @bushwacked
> 
> From the Celsius label: 12. Do not allow people or pets to enter the treated areas until sprays have dried.


True, I just have a hard time believing chemical manu's ... is that something we can believe?


----------



## Jeremy3292

bushwacked said:


> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> @bushwacked
> 
> From the Celsius label: 12. Do not allow people or pets to enter the treated areas until sprays have dried.
> 
> 
> 
> True, I just have a hard time believing chemical manu's ... is that something we can believe?
Click to expand...

No one on here has anymore information than what label says tbh with you. If you are that concerned then I wouldn't spray it but since you already did it's a moot point unless you plan on never letting your kids or dog in the backyard ever again lol.


----------



## Turfsup_pal

Hello, first post here yay! I have cool season grasses / weeds in my zoysia (thinking rye, poa and kbg) and have both Celsius and certainty. Are Celsius and certainty safe to use on dormant turf?


----------



## cldrunner

@Turfsup_pal Yes. Since the temperatures are a little cooler in your area it will take a few weeks to see any results. Welcome to the Forum!!


----------



## Turfsup_pal

@cldrunner Thank you!


----------



## bushwacked

2 Questions ..

I sprayed Celsius and Certainty on Monday ...

1) How long before I can fertilize and throw some N down? I dont want to help the weeds haha. I am wanting to mow before I fertilize

2) How long until these weeds turn brown or die? I did a medium application of both ... plan was to respray again in 2-3 weeks


----------



## Redtwin

If it were me, I'd wait a week and then mow. Be sure to catch your clippings this first time. With cooler temps it can take several weeks for Celsius and Certainty to work but if the weeds are growing, you can kill them.


----------



## bushwacked

Redtwin said:


> If it were me, I'd wait a week and then mow. Be sure to catch your clippings this first time. With cooler temps it can take several weeks for Celsius and Certainty to work but if the weeds are growing, you can kill them.


ok so wait a week, then mow and fert?


----------



## mjh648

Just curious what rate did you use for both herbicides?


----------



## bushwacked

mjh648 said:


> Just curious what rate did you use for both herbicides?


I ran these rates ... for 3k sq ft. Although come to think of it I might have applied .085 celsius for the 3k sq ft. Not sure though but I dont remember measuring like .3 or whatever it would be haha. Might need to go spray again ...


----------



## Brou

bushwacked said:


> 2 Questions ..
> 
> I sprayed Celsius and Certainty on Monday ...
> 
> 1) How long before I can fertilize and throw some N down? I dont want to help the weeds haha. I am wanting to mow before I fertilize
> 
> 2) How long until these weeds turn brown or die? I did a medium application of both ... plan was to respray again in 2-3 weeks


Just a heads-up, if you do another medium rate application of Celsius in 2-3 weeks you'll hit your yearly max in April. You might want to consider a different post-e and save that application for later in the year.


----------



## bushwacked

If I dont kill all the weeds, but throw down fert, am I helping the weeds? I sprayed them, but if they are slowly dying, I dont want to help them by giving them some N. However, my grass needs some N


----------



## Ware

bushwacked said:


> If I dont kill all the weeds, but throw down fert, am I helping the weeds? I sprayed them, but if they are slowly dying, I dont want to help them by giving them some N. However, my grass needs some N


You're fine to apply some N. Believe it or not some herbicides actually work better on some weeds when used in conjunction with nitrogen - Katana plus Urea on annual bluegrass comes to mind.


----------



## mjh648

Just making sure but I can apply Certainty in any temp? Like even if I'm going to be hitting mid 90s?


----------



## Redtwin

mjh648 said:


> Just making sure but I can apply Certainty in any temp? Like even if I'm going to be hitting mid 90s?


Any of the products in the Bermuda Triangle are safe in any temperature. I believe that was part of the reasoning behind choosing them.


----------



## mjh648

@Redtwin thanks. Noticed the label had a mention about 80F limitation pertaining to overseeded ryegrass. Threw me off. I'm not really sure what that means.


----------



## CP3

Lord have mercy, the nutsedge is starting to emerge. I'm thinking of the hose attachment image to get rid of it. I used the image on my back yard for some poa locations and they are all yellow and dying now. Obviously Sedgehammer is probably best, but price difference is huge. Thoughts?


----------



## ag_fishing

Well one bottle of sedghammer treats 40,000 square feet though. I was under the impression Certainty works great for sedge as well


----------



## Redtwin

Dismiss works well for sedges as well, especially kyllinga but it definitely has a temperature limit. @mjh648, not sure which part of the label you are referring to but I know they say not to use a surfactant in higher temperatures (Celsius).


----------



## TNTurf

I have used Certainty, Sedgehammer, and Image and all worked well to get rid of the visible sedge. You won't really ever kill it for good but each of those made what I had disappear for a while. I use the Celsius and Certainty along with a little bit of surfactant pretty much year round. The few months of real winter and dormancy I see very few weeds pop up and during those months I use Round Up concentrate and mix a half gallon for spot spray. The C&C combo I use with any temp. You will see a yellowing at times but the grass does not die. The only "bad part" is the cost to get setup with the ingredients.


----------



## mjh648

@TNTurf have you tried pennant magnum?


----------



## kydegan

Has anyone tried or see any problem if I were to spray (backpack) Certainty with either N-Ext Humic 12 or RGS or both on Bermuda? Want to kill some post emerged weeds and get some humic and RGS into the lawn. Thanks.


----------



## Triplesticks

My Celsius and Certainty are enroute. Admittedly, I have not read the labels, but is there a established mix for spot treatments when mixing the two?


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## Redtwin

I usually mix at the medium rate for spot treatments since I tend to "spray angry" when spot spraying. You may want to do the low rate if you are mixing both Celsius and Certainty.


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## cldrunner

Triplesticks said:


> My Celsius and Certainty are enroute. Admittedly, I have not read the labels, but is there a established mix for spot treatments when mixing the two?


@Triplesticks

Make sure to mix with a non-ionic surfactant for best results.

Something like this: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/farmworks-80-20-surfactant-1-gal


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## Triplesticks

cldrunner said:


> Triplesticks said:
> 
> 
> 
> My Celsius and Certainty are enroute. Admittedly, I have not read the labels, but is there a established mix for spot treatments when mixing the two?
> 
> 
> 
> @Triplesticks
> 
> Make sure to mix with a non-ionic surfactant for best results.
> 
> Something like this: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/farmworks-80-20-surfactant-1-gal
Click to expand...

I bought this https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B004XDHRCE?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title

Am I good to go?


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## cldrunner

@Triplesticks Yes. That is good.


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## TNTurf

mjh648 said:


> @TNTurf have you tried pennant magnum?


I haven't. The 3 ingredients listed in the triangle have worked the last few years and its a big initial investment to get the supplies so I have stuck with the formula. I would be willing to try other options but only after I need to resupply.


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## TNTurf

Redtwin said:


> I usually mix at the medium rate for spot treatments since I tend to "spray angry" when spot spraying. You may want to do the low rate if you are mixing both Celsius and Certainty.


I mix at the full rate and do a quick pass over the spot. Even then, I will see a bit of a yellowing in the spot for a few days before it returns to normal.


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## Triplesticks

Redtwin said:


> I usually mix at the medium rate for spot treatments since I tend to "spray angry" when spot spraying. You may want to do the low rate if you are mixing both Celsius and Certainty.


Thanks


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## Triplesticks

Would some check my math please? 
For a medium spot treatment application rate for Celsius/certainty using 4 gallons of water.

.34 oz of Celsius 
1.28 grams of Certainty

@TNTurf 
@Redtwin


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## Redtwin

Triplesticks said:


> Would some check my math please?
> For a medium spot treatment application rate for Celsius/certainty using 4 gallons of water.
> 
> .34 oz of Celsius
> 1.28 grams of Certainty
> 
> @TNTurf
> @Redtwin


You're measuring using two different units. It's not a huge issue but I would use the same unit of measurement for both products to minimize confusion. Convert everything to grams and make sure your sprayer is calibrated for 2 gallons over 1000sf.

2.4 grams of Celsius per 1000sf (Medium rate)
.48 grams of Certainty per 1000sf (Low rate)
Mix that with 2 gallons of water per 1000sf


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## Triplesticks

Redtwin said:


> Triplesticks said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would some check my math please?
> For a medium spot treatment application rate for Celsius/certainty using 4 gallons of water.
> 
> .34 oz of Celsius
> 1.28 grams of Certainty
> 
> @TNTurf
> @Redtwin
> 
> 
> 
> You're measuring using two different units. It's not a huge issue but I would use the same unit of measurement for both products to minimize confusion. Convert everything to grams and make sure your sprayer is calibrated for 2 gallons over 1000sf.
> 
> 2.4 grams of Celsius per 1000sf (Medium rate)
> .48 grams of Certainty per 1000sf (Low rate)
> Mix that with 2 gallons of water per 1000sf
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## adidasUNT8

TNTurf said:


> I have used Certainty, Sedgehammer, and Image and all worked well to get rid of the visible sedge. You won't really ever kill it for good but each of those made what I had disappear for a while. I use the Celsius and Certainty along with a little bit of surfactant pretty much year round. The few months of real winter and dormancy I see very few weeds pop up and during those months I use Round Up concentrate and mix a half gallon for spot spray. The C&C combo I use with any temp. You will see a yellowing at times but the grass does not die. The only "bad part" is the cost to get setup with the ingredients.


When you say that you use this year round, are you spot treating it or blanket treating it? Assuming spot treating.


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## TNTurf

adidasUNT8 said:


> TNTurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have used Certainty, Sedgehammer, and Image and all worked well to get rid of the visible sedge. You won't really ever kill it for good but each of those made what I had disappear for a while. I use the Celsius and Certainty along with a little bit of surfactant pretty much year round. The few months of real winter and dormancy I see very few weeds pop up and during those months I use Round Up concentrate and mix a half gallon for spot spray. The C&C combo I use with any temp. You will see a yellowing at times but the grass does not die. The only "bad part" is the cost to get setup with the ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say that you use this year round, are you spot treating it or blanket treating it? Assuming spot treating.
Click to expand...

Yes, spot treating. Thank goodness I do not need to deal with a blanket of sedge. Ha. I see mostly on the mid to lower part of the hill in the back where water pass often. I have certain spots that are repeat annually.


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## adidasUNT8

TNTurf said:


> adidasUNT8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> TNTurf said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have used Certainty, Sedgehammer, and Image and all worked well to get rid of the visible sedge. You won't really ever kill it for good but each of those made what I had disappear for a while. I use the Celsius and Certainty along with a little bit of surfactant pretty much year round. The few months of real winter and dormancy I see very few weeds pop up and during those months I use Round Up concentrate and mix a half gallon for spot spray. The C&C combo I use with any temp. You will see a yellowing at times but the grass does not die. The only "bad part" is the cost to get setup with the ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> When you say that you use this year round, are you spot treating it or blanket treating it? Assuming spot treating.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes, spot treating. Thank goodness I do not need to deal with a blanket of sedge. Ha. I see mostly on the mid to lower part of the hill in the back where water pass often. I have certain spots that are repeat annually.
Click to expand...

lol yeah the reason why I ask, is i'm assuming this stuff will keep popping up. Kill it in one area and then one pops up right next to the other one. Wondering if a blanket app would be better to catch the ones you can't see maybe.


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## mjh648

@adidasUNT8 Have you tried spot treating? I had the same opinion as you but did a low concentration spot treatment of Dismiss with AMS and surfactant the other day and the sedge is absolutely torched after 3 days. With how Dismiss can bang up SA I think trying out spot treatments first is a good idea and then if you have to come back and do a blanket app maybe go with something less harsh like Certainty.


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## adidasUNT8

mjh648 said:


> @adidasUNT8 Have you tried spot treating? I had the same opinion as you but did a low concentration spot treatment of Dismiss with AMS and surfactant the other day and the sedge is absolutely torched after 3 days. With how Dismiss can bang up SA I think trying out spot treatments first is a good idea and then if you have to come back and do a blanket app maybe go with something less harsh like Certainty.


I was basically referring to spot treating with Certainty as opposed to blanket. If it's beneficial enough to blanket treat, without any ill side effects to the bermuda.


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## mjh648

That's why it's in the bermuda triangle.


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## Midsoutherner

I thought I posted this last night but I guess I was up too late and never actually submitted my question. Anyways, so Im working on building up my Bermuda triangle herbicides and I have been going back and forth on Certainty vs Dismiss or both and I ended up ordering both, but Im not sure I need both. I have a ton of Poa Annua, and corn speedwell in my yard. Unless I missed it both Celsius and Certainty are not labeled for speedwell but Dismiss is. I think the speedwell is supposed to die off in the heat of summer and I am now on a Prodiamine schedule for my Pre-em, I just dont want the dense cover of the weeds to stunt my Bermuda since its already pretty sparse. Did I waste $65?


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## ReelMowLow74

Sorry for what might be a stupid question my, but I'm trying to understand the mix amounts, carrier volume and exactly what I'll need to do for a blanket application of Certainty in my Bermuda to battle nutsedge pressure. I've read the label but just feel like I need to validate my understanding here.

I have 5000sf. If I read this correctly a medium application would be .64oz (4 small scoops) of product per 2 gal of water, which is used per 1k sf? I have a 4 gallon backpack sprayer so I'll need to fill it up 2.5x with this mix to successfully follow this guidance? I also have Duo Stick surfactant which I believe is also recommended. This won't burn the grass in the heat will it?

I have to reapply PGR/FEature this weekend and thought I could tank mix with that, but it looks like separate apps is needed?

Sorry again if I'm way off base but I don't want to make a mistake or nuke anything by accident… except the nutsedge!


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## Never Winter Farms

Just an update... Certainty is no longer a Bayer - Monsanto product. Certainty was sold to NuFarm and their support information is below:
Nufarm
800.345.3330 Customer Service
855.280.6609 Technical Support

Label is here: https://cdn.nufarm.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2018/09/04005431/18157_Nufarm_PIB_Certainty_16-TO-0012-C_lo1.pdf


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## Amoo316

Never Winter Farms said:


> Just an update... Certainty is no longer a Bayer - Monsanto product. Certainty was sold to NuFarm and their support information is below:
> Nufarm
> 800.345.3330 Customer Service
> 855.280.6609 Technical Support
> 
> Label is here: https://cdn.nufarm.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/29/2018/09/04005431/18157_Nufarm_PIB_Certainty_16-TO-0012-C_lo1.pdf


Interesting. Bayer just sold off their Veterinary business to Elanco this last year. I wonder if they are backing out of home lawn care as well.


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## Never Winter Farms

@Amoo316 I don't believe they are backing out of lawn care. They still own Celcius and many other herbicide, insecticide, and fungicides.


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## adidasUNT8

Good afternoon all. Highs here in Texas are between 75-85 over the next week or so. I have a neighbor that is looking to knock out some weeds. He has just about every weed that you can imagine it appears. Bermuda is starting to come out of dormancy now. I have MSM Turf, Certainty, and Celsius. Is it too cold to use Celsius/Certainty and get good results? Would MSM turf stint the bermuda coming out of dormancy for a while? What would be the best combination of these?


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## ag_fishing

I'd save certainty/Celsius for summer. I'm about to use a cheap 3 way from lowes and save the expensive stuff for the 95-100 degree temps.


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## adidasUNT8

ag_fishing said:


> I'd save certainty/Celsius for summer. I'm about to use a cheap 3 way from lowes and save the expensive stuff for the 95-100 degree temps.


Yeah, I've pretty well knocked out all the weeds in my yard over the last year or so and nothing this spring really. I don't plan on spraying his yard again after this, but want to knock out a good amount of them. Just trying to see if Certainty/Celsius would work effectively.


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## mjh648

@adidasUNT8 Does your neighbor have trees on his property that the MSM could negatively affect?

You could try to put it down on Saturday. Sunday and Tuesday are both highs of 84 with rain in the forecast on Monday. That way you have a 48 hour window from the application until rain for it to set in. Toss in some AMS and a surfactant and you'll really be putting some pressure on the weeds with those temps. Just make sure he gets a good watering in before then so the weeds are healthy and actively growing.


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## cldrunner

adidasUNT8 said:


> ag_fishing said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd save certainty/Celsius for summer. I'm about to use a cheap 3 way from lowes and save the expensive stuff for the 95-100 degree temps.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I've pretty well knocked out all the weeds in my yard over the last year or so and nothing this spring really. I don't plan on spraying his yard again after this, but want to knock out a good amount of them. Just trying to see if Certainty/Celsius would work effectively.
Click to expand...

Since you are only spraying once I would go with the high rate of Celsius and Certainty with a surfactant as per the labels for the best results. Will take 3-4 weeks for knockdown but it will not be as harsh on his yard.

from the label:
In areas where weed pressure is high and adequate coverage is critical, add a non-ionic surfactant (NIS) at 0.25% v/v to the spray solution.


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## adidasUNT8

mjh648 said:


> @adidasUNT8 Does your neighbor have trees on his property that the MSM could negatively affect?
> 
> You could try to put it down on Saturday. Sunday and Tuesday are both highs of 84 with rain in the forecast on Monday. That way you have a 48 hour window from the application until rain for it to set in. Toss in some AMS and a surfactant and you'll really be putting some pressure on the weeds with those temps. Just make sure he gets a good watering in before then so the weeds are healthy and actively growing.


I appreciate that feedback. No real trees in the area, just one. I can do my best to control drift around those areas. Good call on the AMS. Would Urea work the same way? Should anything be combined with MSM for broader weed control options?


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## Ware

I don't have a lot to add from what has already been posted. The Bermuda Triangle is a good strategy. Use the broad spectrum herbicides to take care of most of the weeds, then refocus your attention to anything that's left.

I would personally avoid spraying MSM on someone's yard other than my own due to the danger to trees and shrubs.

For broadleaf stuff, it's a good time of year to use a 3-way 2,4-D product before summertime temps arrive.

I would just be prepared for everything to work a little slower early in the season - and be sure to add the recommended spray adjuvants to help with efficacy.

Also make sure to get them on a solid pre-emergent regimen or they'll just end up right back where they started.


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## Redtwin

cldrunner said:


> Since you are only spraying once I would go with the high rate of Celsius and Certainty with a surfactant as per the labels for the best results. Will take 3-4 weeks for knockdown but it will not be as harsh on his yard.
> 
> from the label:
> In areas where weed pressure is high and adequate coverage is critical, add a non-ionic surfactant (NIS) at 0.25% v/v to the spray solution.


This is what I would recommend. I've sprayed in late winter and other than having to wait a little longer to see results, it worked just fine. The surfactant would definitely speed things up in cooler temps. Don't use it once it gets hot.


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## mjh648

adidasUNT8 said:


> mjh648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @adidasUNT8 Does your neighbor have trees on his property that the MSM could negatively affect?
> 
> You could try to put it down on Saturday. Sunday and Tuesday are both highs of 84 with rain in the forecast on Monday. That way you have a 48 hour window from the application until rain for it to set in. Toss in some AMS and a surfactant and you'll really be putting some pressure on the weeds with those temps. Just make sure he gets a good watering in before then so the weeds are healthy and actively growing.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate that feedback. No real trees in the area, just one. I can do my best to control drift around those areas. Good call on the AMS. Would Urea work the same way? Should anything be combined with MSM for broader weed control options?
Click to expand...

not sure it's just the drift on the tree you need to worry about. MSM inside the drip line (canopy) of a tree can be dangerous.


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## adidasUNT8

mjh648 said:


> adidasUNT8 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> mjh648 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @adidasUNT8 Does your neighbor have trees on his property that the MSM could negatively affect?
> 
> You could try to put it down on Saturday. Sunday and Tuesday are both highs of 84 with rain in the forecast on Monday. That way you have a 48 hour window from the application until rain for it to set in. Toss in some AMS and a surfactant and you'll really be putting some pressure on the weeds with those temps. Just make sure he gets a good watering in before then so the weeds are healthy and actively growing.
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate that feedback. No real trees in the area, just one. I can do my best to control drift around those areas. Good call on the AMS. Would Urea work the same way? Should anything be combined with MSM for broader weed control options?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> not sure it's just the drift on the tree you need to worry about. MSM inside the drip line (canopy) of a tree can be dangerous.
Click to expand...

that's a good point, and I didn't know that. These are all fairly small trees and the canopy doesn't go outside the mulch border.


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## adidasUNT8

ok so tomorrow the high is 70* and then saturday is 90*. Would it be that much different to spray saturday vs tomorrow because of the 1 day during higher temps?


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## Ware

Even LCN is on the Bermuda Triangle train:


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## DocTodd

Newbie here to the forum...
I've read the first couple pages of the Bermuda Triangle and looking for some reassurance to make sure I'm going to be jumping into this all appropriately. I presently have 17,000 sq ft of Tahoma 31 sod that was placed out about 10 months ago. Since that time, all I have done is a few applications of fertilizer. No pre emergent or weed killers at all. This needs to change asap as I am on 5 acres, and have 3 other 5 acre lots directly south of me. That wonderful south Oklahoma wind is bringing everything into the yard and I don't want to let it get out of control.
I'm not up to date on what weeds I do and don't have, but I've pretty much got it all including some common bermuda and Johnson grass that also needs to be addressed.
Lastly, our pool should be complete in the next 4 weeks or so and I am planning to add an additional 5k+ sq ft of more Tahoma sod.

1. Should I try to get pretty serious and get some treatments in now before adding the new sod? Some of the new sod will be adjacent and touching the existing lawn. Or, do I let it all ride out the summer and then start treating the entirety of the lawn later this year?
2. Are there granular options for any of this, or should I simply invest in a small tow behind the Polaris/ZTR sprayer? I'm planning to expand the lawn up to as much as 2.5-3 acres of Tahoma over the next few years. 
Thanks! I know I have more questions/concerns but that'll do for now.

EDIT: Does anyone have any knowledge of if these products are detrimental to bees? We are up to 5 hives on our 5 acre property. I'm planning to seed the back 2-2.5 acres with white clover to help with honey production.


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## girevik

I'd be curious to know how many "growing" months would be needed before pre-em application. The thing I'd worry about is stunting/slowing quality root establishment. Personally I'd probably wait and get through the heat of June then do a split pre-em app. Until then keep watering, fertilizing and spot treating with post emergent herbicide.

Definitely want to hear what the experts have to say......


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## DocTodd

girevik said:


> I'd be curious to know how many "growing" months would be needed before pre-em application. The thing I'd worry about is stunting/slowing quality root establishment. Personally I'd probably wait and get through the heat of June then do a split pre-em app. Until then keep watering, fertilizing and spot treating with post emergent herbicide.
> 
> Definitely want to hear what the experts have to say......


Thanks. I think my concern is if there are enough spot treatments to warrant simply spraying the whole lawn. I'll add pics this afternoon after the sun is up, but some areas are pretty heavy while some are much less afflicted (at the moment). The Johnson grass, at least thats what I believe it to be) is going crazy over by my septic tank.


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## girevik

With as much lawn acreage as you have I'm not sure spot treating is a realistic solution. Maybe buy some Celsius, blanket spray a test spot and see what happens. I've never used Celsius so not sure how long it takes to start killing the weeds. I know the Monument I use takes a good 30 days.

As far as pre-em goes, spray a split app on any existing sod but not anywhere new sod will be placed. The existing sod likely has established itself enough at this point to not be seriously affected by the pre-em.

That's the same advice I'd give a friend. Still hoping someone with more experience will chime in.


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## DocTodd

girevik said:


> With as much lawn acreage as you have I'm not sure spot treating is a realistic solution. Maybe buy some Celsius, blanket spray a test spot and see what happens. I've never used Celsius so not sure how long it takes to start killing the weeds. I know the Monument I use takes a good 30 days.
> 
> As far as pre-em goes, spray a split app on any existing sod but not anywhere new sod will be placed. The existing sod likely has established itself enough at this point to not be seriously affected by the pre-em.
> 
> That's the same advice I'd give a friend. Still hoping someone with more experience will chime in.


Thanks. I ended up picking up a tow behind sprayer yesterday. Sale was too good to pass up at the moment. I'm going to get the liquid chemicals ordered today and hope to get an application down in the next week or so.


----------

