# Spring Pre-M Game Plan With Some Seeding?



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Hey everyone,

It's almost that time again. As I am enjoying less to do outside in the winter I am looking forward to striping again. Anyway, I wanted to ask some opinions about applying a pre-m when seeding a bit in NJ come Spring time. I am conscious of putting down too much N as this will only cause pushed growth and disease shortly after. I have used Scotts Starter Fert. with Weed Preventer before and that was great but too high of N for Spring IMO. I am looking into Jonathan Green's Crabgrass Preventer with Tupersan-Siduron 10-15-10 (15# bag for 5K sq. ft.) and that would give me about .25#/N per 1K sq. ft. :thumbup: I like the lower N but the issue here is Tupersan doesn't do much if anything to Poa. So the million dollar question is there a product (preferably granular) that you can seed with while also attacking crabgrass / Poa for Spring? I don't think so unless I sprayed liquid Tenacity, correct? From my understanding, Poa germinates in the Fall but I thought also in the Spring and that is where I tend to see it pop up every year.

intohttp://www.jonathangreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Crabgrass-plus-New-Seeding-5M.pdf


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

What you've assumed is all correct. I went through a similar thought process this year (http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1663) as well as other years in the past. Each time, I've used Tenacity (sprayed) initially, and then a proper pre-M later (6 weeks after germination I think is what I'm going to target), and will again this year.

You can try the JG fertilizer with Tupersan, but not many people here probably have experience with it compared to Mesotrione. From what I've read, and you mentioned yourself, Mesotrione works against more types of weeds and grasses. It's still good to have options.

There is a percent-weight-density calculation that you can do to determine how much of the granular Scotts stuff is equal to a certain oz/Acre concentration of the liquid stuff...but I haven't tried it. You could then calculate the Nitrogen going down with the Scotts product at the 4oz./A rate, for instance, and see how much it is. I haven't tried that, yet.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> What you've assumed is all correct. I went through a similar thought process this year (http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1663) as well as other years in the past. Each time, I've used Tenacity (sprayed) initially, and then a proper pre-M later (6 weeks after germination I think is what I'm going to target), and will again this year.
> 
> You can try the JG fertilizer with Tupersan, but not many people here probably have experience with it compared to Mesotrione. From what I've read, and you mentioned yourself, Mesotrione works against more types of weeds and grasses. It's still good to have options.
> 
> There is a percent-weight-density calculation that you can do to determine how much of the granular Scotts stuff is equal to a certain oz/Acre concentration of the liquid stuff...but I haven't tried it. You could then calculate the Nitrogen going down with the Scotts product at the 4oz./A rate, for instance, and see how much it is. I haven't tried that, yet.


I did see your post earlier and it seems that there isn't too much of a granular out there with just Mesotrione. The Scotts stuff I used last year but I did get some Poa and rather than nuke/seed it, I just dug it out and sodded it with the same sod as my original grass when it was installed years ago. So that isn't a %100 either but maybe it reduced what I would have had if not. The problem is the bag is set up for a 5,000 sq. ft. area and I have 5,900. So you have to use the whole bag to get the correct amount of Mesotrione to be effective (and as I mentioned I still had poa). With that being said it would be too much N in the Spring. I really am trying to stay away from liquids because they are more expensive and definitely time consuming. I guess I'll have to figure it out... Thanks


----------



## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Most of the Annua you are going to see this spring has already germinated. It germinates in late summer / early fall and lies and waits just under the canopy for spring. When the soil temps warm up again, boom it takes off. You can fight Annua in the spring with constant light hits of Tenacity (2oz / A rate - once a week for 4-5 weeks), but that won't work well with Seeding.

To properly / effectively stop the Annua cycle, you'll need to skip seeding at some point. Whether that's skipping the fall seeding and tackling it with a good pre-m like Prodiamine (recommended as it has the highest success rate) or skipping the spring seeding and going the Tenacity route. I have a massive Annua issue myself, and this fall i skipped the overseed and opted for prodiamine route. I'm then going to attack it this spring with Tenacity and get what broke through. It sucks, and there is no easy route to fight it.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Lawndad: I would rather do the calculation myself than go by what's on the bag, because I know what certain rates of the liquid Tenacity do. But like I said, I haven't tried that calculation yet. You make a good point that there can still be some break-through of grassy weeds, like Poa annua, when using Mesotrione. There are a bunch of reasons that could happen, and LawnNerd brought one to our attention just now. LawnNerd also has a good point about eventually going with a conventional pre-M barrier for an entire year or so, instead of seeding. I had an area with tons of annua a few years ago, and after doing the late Summer pre-M instead of seeding for two years, it basically got rid of it all. There were also some Tenacity apps used during that time.

By the way, I actually find that spraying Tenacity is not more expensive. More labor...yes, I agree with that. But the granular stuff is expensive! It has its use, though.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

LawnNerd said:


> Most of the Annua you are going to see this spring has already germinated. It germinates in late summer / early fall and lies and waits just under the canopy for spring. When the soil temps warm up again, boom it takes off. You can fight Annua in the spring with constant light hits of Tenacity (2oz / A rate - once a week for 4-5 weeks), but that won't work well with Seeding.
> 
> To properly / effectively stop the Annua cycle, you'll need to skip seeding at some point. Whether that's skipping the fall seeding and tackling it with a good pre-m like Prodiamine (recommended as it has the highest success rate) or skipping the spring seeding and going the Tenacity route. I have a massive Annua issue myself, and this fall i skipped the overseed and opted for prodiamine route. I'm then going to attack it this spring with Tenacity and get what broke through. It sucks, and there is no easy route to fight it.


I do now remember reading about the Spring poa has already germinated. So I'm beat on that one. What you had said about skipping a seeding is probably the best bet although I don't have a heavy poa problem...yet. Thanks for the info. :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> Lawndad: I would rather do the calculation myself than go by what's on the bag, because I know what certain rates of the liquid Tenacity do. But like I said, I haven't tried that calculation yet. You make a good point that there can still be some break-through of grassy weeds, like Poa annua, when using Mesotrione. There are a bunch of reasons that could happen, and LawnNerd brought one to our attention just now. LawnNerd also has a good point about eventually going with a conventional pre-M barrier for an entire year or so, instead of seeding. I had an area with tons of annua a few years ago, and after doing the late Summer pre-M instead of seeding for two years, it basically got rid of it all. There were also some Tenacity apps used during that time.
> 
> By the way, I actually find that spraying Tenacity is not more expensive. More labor...yes, I agree with that. But the granular stuff is expensive! It has its use, though.


Sounds good. I'll look into a generic Tenacity that I recall seeing at a local sod farm nearby. Can't be that bad. Thanks again! Talk to ya soon.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Generic Tenacity? Didn't know that was a thing, yet! Let us know!


----------



## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

http://turf.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Herbicides-safe-on-seedlings-Reicher-2013.pdf

This article talks about various products used with seeding.

You can buy granular Tupersan without fertilizer. 
https://www.amazon.com/Lebanon-Tupersan-Crabgrass-Control-4-6/dp/B002HJBQ28
Tenacity would probably be much more economical.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2012may14.pdf

Edit: This link from Jesse Hurlburt's reno thread is a good one too.

https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-20-W.pdf


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

There is generic Tenacity. I haven't been able to find prices online.


----------



## JohnP (Oct 24, 2017)

Tenacity is CHEAP on Amazon when you compare it to the local shops. The local Site One wanted $120 for it.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^tenacity is cheap compared with the results a little bit provide. I think a $60 bottle will go bad before i could use it half of it.


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

g-man said:


> ^tenacity is cheap compared with the results a little bit provide. I think a $60 bottle will go bad before i could use it half of it.


Feel free to send the other half my way!


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> Generic Tenacity? Didn't know that was a thing, yet! Let us know!


Yeah I saw it at a local turf farm and It would about half the price. I can't recall the name of it but if I go that route I'll definitely get back to you.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

gene_stl said:


> http://turf.wisc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Herbicides-safe-on-seedlings-Reicher-2013.pdf
> 
> This article talks about various products used with seeding.
> 
> ...


Good to know and I love using Amazon. Thanks.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

bernstem said:


> There is generic Tenacity. I haven't been able to find prices online.


I remember seeing it at a local turf supply store in NJ. It is called Seeton Turf. I don't know that it would be found online with their site but you can check.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

JohnP said:


> Tenacity is CHEAP on Amazon when you compare it to the local shops. The local Site One wanted $120 for it.


Definitely true Amazon usually beats out everyone.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

g-man said:


> ^tenacity is cheap compared with the results a little bit provide. I think a $60 bottle will go bad before i could use it half of it.


$60 a bottle is doable. :thumbup:


----------



## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

Just visited for the first time, my local Site One, and the guy there said they would match online prices.
They had lots of stuff on hand , in stock.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

gene_stl said:


> Just visited for the first time, my local Site One, and the guy there said they would match online prices.
> They had lots of stuff on hand , in stock.


Good to know thanks.


----------

