# This is what Poa Triv makes you do



## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Everyone thinks I'm crazy. Tell me I'm not. Lol.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

You're crazy!!! But almost everyone in this forum are crazy to be doing the things we do. :nod: :thumbup: 
You should link this back to your original thread.
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28914


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## LeeB (Jul 1, 2019)

Two questions. How long does it have to stay on? And what happens if it rains?


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

This is Awesome, never seen a pic of someone actually do this but it's way better than gly if you can tolerate it.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

I am trying for 3 months. (100 degrees out yesterday...130 degrees under that plastic).

It just started raining pretty hard yesterday and now today and tomorrow....I will find out. All is well so far....other than the puddles....We will see. I am learning as I go as most of us do.


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## SOLARSUPLEX (Aug 4, 2020)

This is how i killed a large amount of weeds in my back yard, though it was only in a 50x2' strip. That said, i'll be using gly on my lawn this time around lol


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

@Cagnomark That's pretty cool. I am only a few miles from you down the hill and like you, struggling with poa triv. I finally lost my cool in April and nuked my back yard. Luckily everyone already thinks (knows) I am crazy so barely batted an eye.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> This is Awesome, never seen a pic of someone actually do this but it's way better than gly if you can tolerate it.


I strongly disagree that it is better than gly for poa t.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Yeah...Triv in the whole area is really bad. I see Infestations in all neighbors yards so I know it will show up again and again. I made the mistake of leaving the upkeep of my lawn to a lawn service company for the last 3 years. Poa Triv was everywhere (I mean everywhere) and I just could not live with it. Back to taking care of it myself (Post Covid working from home). We'll see how it goes....

Ive been talking to some SOD farms in the area who are also struggling to keep triv out.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

To be clear... i put down 2 doses of Glysophate first...waited for complete death and then solarized... taking no chances...trying everything I can. If it does not work...at least I tried.

My path and theory is as follows: 2 rounds of glysophate...(lawn totally dead), Solarize for 3 months to try to kill as many weed seeds as possible. Then I'm putting sod down which in theory....... established sod should block most of the poa and any other weeds if it still exists (which we all know probably will).


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## NJ-lawn (Jun 25, 2018)

When I first saw the pic I thought you poured concrete. Lol


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

I've given up killing Triv with even glyphosate, it always comes back into my back yard. I've tried twice at this point with no real luck. If/when i feel up to the task again i may actually rent a sod cutter and take out the top 3-5 inches of soil or as deep as it will let me go and then replace with fresh soil and seed. Im honestly not sure if even that will do it.


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## Kissfromnick (Mar 25, 2019)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> I've given up killing Triv with even glyphosate, it always comes back into my back yard. I've tried twice at this point with no real luck. If/when i feel up to the task again i may actually rent a sod cutter and take out the top 3-5 inches of soil or as deep as it will let me go and then replace with fresh soil and seed. Im honestly not sure if even that will do it.


I had sod cuter on property to do some drainage pipe. So I decided to try. 3 apps of round up on triv and lowest settings on sod cuter.. Use about 1.5k sod in total. Now not funny story found 2 small spots of triv on new sod and im sure it came with sod. Will see how it work at spring


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

NJ-lawn said:


> When I first saw the pic I thought you poured concrete. Lol


After all, that may be the ONLY 1-step kill for Triv! :twisted:


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> > This is Awesome, never seen a pic of someone actually do this but it's way better than gly if you can tolerate it.
> ...


Why? Triv hates heat and stress....


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

And it goes dormant to survive under heat. So all those roots are still there, waiting.

But gly, tries to get into the roots and kill from within.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

stevehollx said:


> NJ-lawn said:
> 
> 
> > When I first saw the pic I thought you poured concrete. Lol
> ...




🎶 But the cat came back, the very next day 🎶


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## Chuuurles (Nov 23, 2020)

davegravy said:


> stevehollx said:
> 
> 
> > NJ-lawn said:
> ...


 :lol: :lol: :lol:


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

g-man said:


> And it goes dormant to survive under heat. So all those roots are still there, waiting.
> 
> But gly, tries to get into the roots and kill from within.


The roots can only stay dormant so long before they're dead too. No guarantee that gly will have a total kill. Both are probably best bet, but solarization seems more reliable, especially for a prolonged period of time.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

BrainBailey said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > And it goes dormant to survive under heat. So all those roots are still there, waiting.
> ...


Well the kill method of solarization is heat. Like steaming broccali. I would think that triv parts cant survive this. Like blasting with a torch.

So i take my statement back, the best way to kill triv is to go scorched earth.

Pour water in to generate steam and make sure all edges are sealed.

Is there a product that attacks roots ? Id try that in conjunction.

Also i think theres an oxygen element... covering prevents this getting to roots.


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## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

It's in the seed bank for multiple years. It will be back.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Don't forget to fallow after!


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

Wolverine said:


> It's in the seed bank for multiple years. It will be back.


I dont think seeding from Triv is the aspect that is needed to control. It doesn't seem to be nearly the primary player in how it thrives. Rare to see it seed-spreads from stolons and heavy rain/fertilization in spring/fall when it is cool.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

Wolverine said:


> It's in the seed bank for multiple years. It will be back.


Good point. Would make sense to roll-up the tarps, agitate the soil, and fallow intermittently as well. This would certainly be a very long process, but would help coerce some of the latent seeds out too?


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Maybe the cement idea is best...LOL.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Cagnomark said:


> Maybe the cement idea is best...LOL.


Or artificial turf. I'm currently living with my triv although the relationship is loveless.


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## Mark102 (Oct 6, 2018)

I killed some wild raspberry bushes in the corner of my lot last year doing this. I chopped them down to ground level and covered them from June to October. They didn't come back this year so it must have worked.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

stevehollx said:


> Wolverine said:
> 
> 
> > It's in the seed bank for multiple years. It will be back.
> ...


In my yard it definitely seeds. I'm convinced that's how it survives multiple gly.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

I hope the solar works for you. A guy on youtube did a whole series on this a couple years ago. He never reported back so not sure the results

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEI_1ck0jlI


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

Why clear plastic and not black? A report of someone who compared:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g793dY8bPGo[/media]


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I like the scorched earth controlled burn method. 
Most cities would say this is illegal but assuming you can, whats the most efficient method.

The desired outcome would be to heat the soil enough that destroys seeds up to idk like 1" below soil surface.

It actually seems like you coukd pull this off in small sections even if its illegal. Like a patch of Poa.

I havent reseach yet but i bet theres some info out there.

Remember that solarization needs heat and moisture to work. Seal those sides !!!!

Think of a compost bin, need it to get hot enough to destroy the weed seeds


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

2L8 said:


> Why clear plastic and not black? A report of someone who compared:
> 
> [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g793dY8bPGo[/media]


Yeah I suspect the black appeared to work better here because it starved plants of sunlight, not because soil temperatures got up high enough. Probably neither method got hot enough due to the edges being unsealed and maybe insufficiently hot sunny weather.

Unlikely that solar starvation alone would kill Triv seeds and stolons. Clear plastic has the advantage that you know you got a heat kill.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Makes me wonder a couple of things...

Do they make clear plastic that would amplify light ?

Could you add ingridents to increaSe heat ? Compost, a certain bacteria or even sugar/molassas to encourage growth ?

Would aeration before hand be better ?
Think heat access deeper and more water from soil.

Would it be better to add some spacers for air flow making more of a green house affect ?

Are there common ammendments we can drop for increased heat production like a 202020, milo or like bird fead, corn, alfalfa ?

I honestly think were on to something here as the ultimate triv solution. This could also bascially create a layer of compost for great growing conditions.

Also eliminates gly from the mix which is something we prefer not to use.

Another odd Idea is to run a heat treat operation on new soil that kills any seeds and add enough so that triv cant sprout. I'm thinking 1" but might not be enough.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I believe eliminating glyphosate for triv removal would be a mistake and would eventually have you in the same spot as before. The stolens are extremely durable and although the plastic will kill the leaf and probably have you thinking it's clear it will eventually be back without a proper root kill from gly. Without glyphosate the only other option would be mechanical removal (cut it out).


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I believe eliminating glyphosate for triv removal would be a mistake and would eventually have you in the same spot as before. The stolens are extremely durable and although the plastic will kill the leaf and probably have you thinking it's clear it will eventually be back without a proper root kill from gly. Without glyphosate the only other option would be mechanical removal (cut it out).


I totally agree, this would only be the case in which the new heat kill process is proven to work aka total plant kill. Root seed and leaves.


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

There is a surefire way to kill seeds in the soil. Sterilisation of soil with hot stream. Machines and methods exist to eliminate fungi, bacteria, viruses, pests and weeds from soil to a depth of 80 cm (2.6 ft) using superheated steam (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_steam_sterilization).

In fact, I contacted a company that manufactures such equipment (https://www.msd-ag.de/en/__trashed-2/) and asked if anyone in my area operated it. Unfortunately, this was not the case.

I think this is a great technique and devices for it should be standard equipment for farmers and horticulturists.

I considered another way to sterilize soil. There is a local horticulturist who runs a sterilization oven. There, 300 liters (79 gal) of soil can be sterilized within a few hours. The costs would have been bearable, but the transport of the soil and the filling and emptying of the oven in stages was too time-consuming for me.

In the end it would have been in vain, because the sown seeds were already contaminated with Poa annua and tivialis.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Lol so we just need to call stanley steamer ?! :lol:

Yea, I mean is your seeds are contaiminated your F'd.

I have two other ideas:

Idea a.) is to use hotcoals to burnout a spot where triv lurks. In combo with gly. 
This could be an upgrade to digging because digginf distrubs the soil and theres not guranteed the new soil is triv free.

B.) to help with the steaming process use a pool heating cover. My family has had a pool my entire life and these work to help heat.
Im not sure if you could just use bubble wrap instead, seems logical. This would help heat up the oven. 
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sun2Solar-Blue-15-x-30-Rectangle-Solar-Pool-Cover-1600-Series/184887417?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=575&adid=22222222223287362982&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=s&wl2=m&wl3=74423296321784&wl4=pla-4578022847541456&wl5=&wl6=&wl7=&wl10=Walmart&wl11=Online&wl12=184887417_10000000487&wl14=pool%20heating%20cover&veh=sem&msclkid=a744c6683f60166031a9a6893f089d85&gclid=a744c6683f60166031a9a6893f089d85&gclsrc=3p.ds

After looking at the wiki link @2L8 posted.
I think a steam generator in conjunction with a cover like OP already has could work without the expensive equipment. 
Maybe I'm simplyfying a bit much but fire & water = steam.
Get a Jerry can from HF. Place a copper pipe at the top and drop into fire pit. Run hose to the sealed plastic cover on lawn. 
Im sure theres other ways to generate steam but this seems doable without the commercial equipment.
To pull off a large area heat from sun and maybe a hot air heater would help stabilize the steam so that id doesnt instantly condensate.

Quick search: https://www.amazon.com/Happybuy-Generator-Waterproof-Programmable-Controller/dp/B07BXT5FBC/ref=mp_s_a_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=steam+generator&qid=1625360569&sr=8-13


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Thick n Dense, they used to do a ton of burning in seed production. I think it was for this reason, but you'd have to ask @Oregonseed. I understand they aren't allowed to do it in most areas anymore, due to enhanced chances of wildfires with the current propensity of droughts and whatnot. And the smoke is toxic with all the hydrocarbons and other stuff in it. So, they have to find new methods to combat Triv, annua, etc.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense, they used to do a ton of burning in seed production. I think it was for this reason, but you'd have to ask @Oregonseed. I understand they aren't allowed to do it in most areas anymore, due to enhanced chances of wildfires with the current propensity of droughts and whatnot. And the smoke is toxic with all the hydrocarbons and other stuff in it. So, they have to find new methods to combat Triv, annua, etc.


I thought about using a weed torch on the soil as a final step after a few rounds of gly. I never did it unfortunately. Is this what your are talking about or a more prolonged burn of the field?


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

gm560 said:


> I thought about using a weed torch on the soil as a final step after a few rounds of gly. I never did it unfortunately. Is this what your are talking about or a more prolonged burn of the field?


After glyposate treatment in 2019 I burned off the dead grass with a propane torch and heated the soil until it partially glowed. I used about 9 kg (20 lbs) for ca. 60 m² (ca. 645 ft²). It took me 2 or 3 hours and it smelled intensely.


The soil lay fallow until summer 2020 and a lot of Poa annua grew on it. So in my case not really helpful.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I dont think that a propane torch gets you the depth or heat required to denature the seeds.

I was thinking a bag of kingdord. Get the coals going and spot treat triv. The coals will smolder for hours.

Not feasbile for large areas.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think this thread is hilarious. Getting soil at 2in hot enough to do much is very very hard.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

@g-man 
#WhatTrivMakesYouDo

At least I'm not pluggin Provista here


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

Thick n Dense said:


> I dont think that a propane torch gets you the depth or heat required to denature the seeds.
> 
> I was thinking a bag of kingdord. Get the coals going and spot treat triv. The coals will smolder for hours.
> 
> Not feasbile for large areas.


I didn't expect much. I wanted to get rid of the straw and was hoping to burn at least some seeds on the surface. Soil is a poor conductor of heat.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Another interesting thought is the use of Mircowaves.

You could quickly sterlize soil in a microwave but limited to the size of it.

Applything that to electro magnetics, an directional uwave emitting antenna could sterilize soul with out moving it.

Obviously this is dangerous and would need someone who understands these things to develop. In theory it could work.

On a completly seperate note. Anyone think its feassible to add a physical barrier 1-2" deep that will decompose by the time the reno has established ? Im thinking of cardoard .... the reason I say this is because gardeners put cardboard down to block weeds... problem is that the news soil could be contaiminated.

If it wasnt worth it, it wouldnt be easy. 
The only way to over come this is to keep throwing pickles at the walls and see which one stick.


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## sheepfescue (Jul 29, 2019)

If things are getting to the point that lawns are getting tarped, and the discussion has evolved into theoretical discussions about setting fire to the soil....

Well, a couple things come to mind...

1. Why is Poa Trivialis not more commercialized than it is, and perhpas engineered to be a bit hardier, darker green?

1b. Why do people not run "Poa Zoysialis" lawns (permanent poa trivialis with zoysia) in the north? You can have bright lime-green grass all year, no?

2. Pro trivialis and Poa annua are nothing new... why don't seed developers offer premium LIGHTER shaded northern turfgrasses that could blend in with both poa trivialis and poa annua (I hate that color--perhaps most do--but if the whole lawn was one color, that'd be nice)?


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

@sheepfescue 
Wouldnt a maintennince free uniform lawn that outcompetes weeds kill the sod and fert business lol ?

On a side note we may have overlooked MSM. 
Its rated for use on kbg, so it might survive however reading through the manual... statements indicate that it could kill stolons and new grass from seed.

These include: 
-dont apply on grass les than 1 year old
- absorbs through roots
- do not seed for at least 2 months after application

This might actually work as it nukes the soil. 
When I asked about this a while back, the advice from here I got was be carefull cause if you F up, then you cant seed for 2 months.

I feel like this could be what we need.

Yaya state restrictions only half the US can "legally" use.


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## LeeB (Jul 1, 2019)

Because the seeds can survive for years in the soil, I think most need to accept that you're going to have to nuke the areas with roundup and reseed 2-3 years in a row to get it under control. Can't really escape the time commitment on that and get one quick fix. The amount will get less and less each year so effort will decrease. I have some other weeds that are like this too, they still emerge after 4 years but are gradually disappearing.

Spraying Roundup seems to work best when done in the spring a few weeks before heat and drought conditions set in.


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## 2L8 (Mar 18, 2019)

Thick n Dense said:


> ...
> 
> Applything that to electro magnetics, an directional uwave emitting antenna could *sterilize soul* with out moving it.
> 
> ...


Funny typo (or not?).


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

gm560 said:


> or a more prolonged burn of the field?


Yeah, the field burns. It really helped get rid of stuff.


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## Nikegolf1224 (Apr 21, 2021)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> I've given up killing Triv with even glyphosate, it always comes back into my back yard. I've tried twice at this point with no real luck. If/when i feel up to the task again i may actually rent a sod cutter and take out the top 3-5 inches of soil or as deep as it will let me go and then replace with fresh soil and seed. Im honestly not sure if even that will do it.


What season did you apply ru to your triv? I too have lost the battle to triv with glyphosphate in years past. This year I tried again in the spring and did multiple apps to the triv and the surrounding areas. So far I havent seen any back in those areas but it has been hot. Also it has been irrigated and has yet to rear it's ugly head. We'll see in the fall though. Also been using Anuew pgr and it does some damage to triv.


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I had a large patch of Triv before my reno last fall and (knock on wood) it hasn't returned. I don't know what was different about my Triv that made it so easy to tackle.

It was in a pretty shaded and damp area and tended to not go dormant in the summer, so in the fall it was probably very receptive to Glypho. The Triv I still have in my front yard is in a sunny area, I will definitely nuke it in early spring since that's the only time it's green.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Someone test this for seeds and stolons. I think this with non-diquat gly could do it.
https://www.controlsolutionsinc.com/quali-pro/golf/herbicide/msm-turf


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> Someone test this for seeds and stolons. I think this with non-diquat gly could do it.
> https://www.controlsolutionsinc.com/quali-pro/golf/herbicide/msm-turf


Please dont advise people to try MSM. It is a very potent herbicide (0.5oz to treat an acre) that can kill mature trees and make the area sterile. It is not approved to most northern states. It is an easy way to kill your lawn.

If you treat poa t in the spring with multiple applications of regular gly and then remove the 2in of soil, it will be gone.


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## tam (Jun 27, 2020)

Crazy? Not necessarily. It's just grass, after all. If you've got the time and the money to try it...

I can tell you from personal experience that it can work on pre-stunted bermuda when using two layers of clear plastic with an air gap between and moisture under the bottom layer. But my reading is that it's more likely to be effective at preventing annual weeds than killing perennials.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

g-man said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> > Someone test this for seeds and stolons. I think this with non-diquat gly could do it.
> ...


If someone wants to try a Sulfonyl herbicide on Poa Triv in cool-season grass, Sulfosulfuron is the one to try. There is a generic product that is labeled for cool-season turf called Sertay. This AI actually works pretty well on some types of Triv in some conditions, without totally killing the good turf (in some cases, it barely even phases it, but while killing/suppressing the Triv). Fairly safe at the recommended rates. I've been using Sulfosulfuron quite a bit this year with fairly good success after experimenting on a limited basis in previous years.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

@Green

I think that MSM must be used in conjunction with Glyphosate.

So pre Reno 2 months out: MSM and Gly
Fallow
Rekill sprouts with Gly 
Fallow 
Gly 
Seed

The idea here is that MSM takes out Seeds/Stolons while Gly takes out the things already sprouted.

The root cause with Triv is not that we can't kill it, it just always resprouts from seeds or stolons. 
If you can stop that, then it's an easy gly kill.

The one factor that could spoil this plan is the timing of the MSM.
You'd really want to get into soil during the time period where Triv germinates or is revived from stolons. 
Which means that you'd have to apply in spring warm up or right before Halloween and have a dead lawn all spring and winter.

In areas where you have triv in an existing lawn this isn't as bad but like others have pointed out the digging out method seems to work.

Another thought I had was to decrease the rate of gly and perhaps mix in PGR. 
If you weaken the concentration of gly and do more apps over a time period. could lead to better kill. 
Also PGR is shown to reduce seed heads in P. Annua.

Also, Make sure you're using 100% Gly without Diquat!!!

Diquat is a burn down, that will prematurelly kill the plant before a full root kill. This might cause some of the problems that were talking about.

Of course none of this means anything if you disturb the soil add sand or new soil or your seed is contaminated.

This is also theoretical - someone should test and report back though and report where not all spraying this like ridiculous morons hoping that this works.

For most a whole year of dead lawn is a bit too much.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Ya know, another interesting thought is the impact of Pre-Emergent.

I would think that one could eventually kill off the seed bank by having a year long blanket of Prodiamine for multiple years. 
You would just have to stop the triv from seeding which could be done with PGR and Gly.

Which really leads to the stolon's being the true problem and not so much the seeds.

I wonder if there's a Pre - Emergent that stops stolon's and rhizomes ?!

Maybe doing a high dose of pre-emergants (over label rate) will stop stolons?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

None of this will work. What you need is to construct an aviary over the problem area, similar to the below but doesn't need to be that high. Release several hundred dark eyed juncos in this area. They are voracious seed eaters and will take care of any poa seed. As two inch soil temps approach 55 you will want to exterminate these birds. You don't want to run the risk of them dropping seed in other areas of the yard. You should be good to go at that point.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

tgreen said:


> None of this will work. What you need is to construct an aviary over the problem area, similar to the below but doesn't need to be that high. Release several hundred dark eyed juncos in this area. They are voracious seed eaters and will take care of any poa seed. As two inch soil temps approach 55 you will want to exterminate these birds. You don't want to run the risk of them dropping seed in other areas of the yard. You should be good to go at that point.


Ugh my HOA rules ruining everything once again.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > None of this will work. What you need is to construct an aviary over the problem area, similar to the below but doesn't need to be that high. Release several hundred dark eyed juncos in this area. They are voracious seed eaters and will take care of any poa seed. As two inch soil temps approach 55 you will want to exterminate these birds. You don't want to run the risk of them dropping seed in other areas of the yard. You should be good to go at that point.
> ...


This is a connor episode in the making.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/rm43-glyphosate-plus-weed-preventer-tvc-32-oz?cm_vc=-10005#

Another option to msm. Musy work the same, says " do not spray near tree roots"


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/rm43-glyphosate-plus-weed-preventer-tvc-32-oz?cm_vc=-10005#
> 
> Another option to msm. Musy work the same, says " do not spray near tree roots"


This is definitely not an option. This will make the soil sterile for 1 year. It uses imazapyr. I don't think it is a good idea to suggest products that you never used.


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## timmybluegrass (Oct 19, 2020)

@Thick n Dense

It also says "do not use before planting lawns."


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Well....Since I put down the plastic it has rained and rained hard almost every day.....But....The plastic is holding up...
I'll send updated pics after a few more weeks and certainly when I take it off in Sept.....

I still have not decided on a sod yet...Deciding between a (KBG mix) or a (KBG and TTTF mix). I like the idea of TTTF for NJ as it does get pretty darn hot and humid which is probably trouble for KBG (even if it is a mix) but.... being able to put a pre-emergent down in the spring and fall with KBG and not worrying about overseeding each year sounds like it will help with the weed issues.

I'm sure this has been discussed a million times on this forum....Any suggestions for the right sod for the southern part of Northern NJ?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Maybe call Tuckahoe Sod Farms? If I were going to sod, this is almost certainly where I would be ordering from. They supply sod to a ton of MLB (Camden Yards, PNC, Fenway, Progressive), NFL (Lambeau, Lincoln Financial, Heinz), and MLS stadiums, so they must be doing something right.... and they are right here in the Garden State.

https://ttfarms.com/


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## Oregonseed (May 22, 2019)

Green said:


> @Thick n Dense, they used to do a ton of burning in seed production. I think it was for this reason, but you'd have to ask @Oregonseed. I understand they aren't allowed to do it in most areas anymore, due to enhanced chances of wildfires with the current propensity of droughts and whatnot. And the smoke is toxic with all the hydrocarbons and other stuff in it. So, they have to find new methods to combat Triv, annua, etc.


Yep, burning used to be the best weed control method. Now we dump endless amounts of chemicals on - much worse in my opinion.
Our poa annua and triv problems have escalated since to the point almost all seed fields have them in it!

Fine fescue is still allowed to burn, lucky dogs.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Oregonseed, your industry really needs a slew of new (and safe) chemicals introduced and approved for seed production, like Methiozolin and more. I don't understand how you (and everyone who buys seed) are just supposed to live with Poa contamination. I saw a photo of a sulfonyl herbicide being used to kill Triv in a seed field, but as you know, it they don't kill certain cultivars of Triv, and are kind of finicky (as I found when using Sulfosulfuron in my lawn). Hopefully there will be a solution.

But I guess larger seeds are pretty good because of how stuff is filtered. But I feel like every time KBG seed is used, it's a risk. I even had some Poa bullosa one year. No clue where that came from (seed, soil).


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Many thanks for the Tuckahoe Turf farm suggestion...Somehow in it did not come up in my search. WIll take a look this week.

Mark


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Cagnomark said:


> Many thanks for the Tuckahoe Turf farm suggestion...Somehow in it did not come up in my search. WIll take a look this week.


Youre very welcome. When you are researching, make sure to check out their twitter, it probably has more info than the website, including a bunch of recent projects. Looks like they just did Beaver Stadium @ Penn State.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1395448587539173379


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

@gm560 - makes me wonder what cultivars might be in this:

https://www.shopttfarms.com/product/blue-grass-sod-seed-50/24?cs=true&cst=custom


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

JerseyGreens said:


> @gm560 - makes me wonder what cultivars might be in this:
> 
> https://www.shopttfarms.com/product/blue-grass-sod-seed-50/24?cs=true&cst=custom


Looks like they use 365ss. I think that is Blue Note and Legend.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

tgreen said:


> In my yard it definitely seeds. I'm convinced that's how it survives multiple gly.


I pulled up a few small Triv plants today...in an area where everything was killed with 3x gly for a renovation last year. The grass is still really sparse at this point, so it's easy to see the stuff that is germinating...mostly nutsedge and Triv. But the Triv obviously came from seeds that I have in the soil, still. There are no stolons anywhere when I pull them up. There you have it. Seed is an issue, too. I will tell you, there were a lot of seedheads in the area, historically...I often couldn't mow it due to flooding.


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Green said:


> tgreen said:
> 
> 
> > In my yard it definitely seeds. I'm convinced that's how it survives multiple gly.
> ...


Good to have you confirm. I'm also convinced that's how it survives and not from stolons. I've get a little bit of it growing in between the bricks on my patio from time to time. That's not coming from stolons.

I've kept up the pre-m all summer. I bag all clippings too. Have been hand pulling triv though which is probably breaking the barrier. I can't help but pick it. Better plan would probably be to leave it and pull up before seeding and use tenacity for the pre-m at that time.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

tgreen said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > tgreen said:
> ...


Do you guys not use Pre-M ?
Has it mutated now that Prodiamine doesn't stop it ?


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## tgreen (Oct 20, 2018)

Thick n Dense said:


> Do you guys not use Pre-M ?
> Has it mutated now that Prodiamine doesn't stop it ?


I don't understand the questions.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Thick n Dense said:


> Do you guys not use Pre-M ?
> Has it mutated now that Prodiamine doesn't stop it ?


Normally, I use Dimension first thing in the Spring. Last year, I went without it in the back. I had very little crabgrass. This year, I went without it everywhere (made sure as heck that my neighbors' lawns were treated, though). I really don't have a ton of crabgrass, even now. I'll do Quinclorac on part of the front (in the Triv kill spots) to take me through to seeding time. But that will be moreso as a pre-emergent than a post.

The grass is holding up a bit better in the heat, versus with the pre-emergent in other years. That was one of my goals.

I did do Prodiamine in one area (about 3,000 square feet where there is higher weed pressure), but not until early June, and mixed with 2oz/A of Tenacity. I also used Gallery on some areas, but that's only for broadleaf.

I really don't have a ton of weeds in most areas. Mostly one or two things I can pull out easily. Two small areas with lots of broadleaf weeds, but that's it. But I thought about the Triv seeds more recently...how without a pre-M, they might come up. That is exactly what happened. But thankfully a lot of it is on an area where I can pull them out because the grass is still thin. Not sure what I'm going to in about a week or so when I overseed the area...I have Tenacity, and I have one of the last bags of Tupersan/fert by Jonathan Green, so I'm prepared, yes, but it's not clear this stuff will fully stop it, since it allows KBG to germinate. Let alone, what's happening in my main lawn areas that went without pre-M.

Is Topramezone any better at cleaning up seedling Poa Triv than Tenacity? If so, I'll pick some Roundup Crabgrass Destroyer, too. But who knows if it is or not.

That said, in other years, I did pre-M and still had plenty of Triv.


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

Green said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> > Do you guys not use Pre-M ?
> ...


I think Topra is harder on fescue than tenacity. I'm doing Topra+triclopyr applications on Nimblewill patches this summer and lost about 20% of the fescue in the process. Topra in the fall when Triv is growing may be fine though.

I gly'd/seeded Triv patches this spring. If I see some in the fall I may try some pylex on a spot to see what it does since I have some around but not sure the advantage over tenacity which is cheaper and perhaps more friendly on the fescue.

Tenacity is nice for finding seedlings of Triv. I'm generally blanket spraying it anyway for overseeding, so it will mark Triv seedlings in the fall.

In the spring, early iron apps can help Triv stand out. Then when I treat those areas with gly, if you spray an apron of Tenacity around those spots, anything that comes up later in the spring will light up and you can then pull, or gly. I had some grow out of the edges of my gly spots this spring, and because I mixed tenacity with the gly I was able to easily identify those spots and apply more gly there and get some seed down before summer. Seed didn't survive, but at least hopefully suppressed those newer seedlings.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Yea, I mean I guess the point is that after I'm triv free, I'd religious be putting down nothing but protamine while having year round coverage.

I didn't think Dimension stopped KBG, could be wrong though maybe this created the confusion.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Need some more of your expert assistance….

BTW… Many thanks to GM560...for mentioning Tuckahoe Sod Farm in NJ. Love their sod and they are a pleasure to deal with.

Tuckahoe has two main types of Sod…KBG and TTTF (TTTF has 10% KBG for a binder). Both types of sod look great….with KBG having a slightly overall better appearance as the different types of KBG are more similar/consistent than the different types of TTTF but you really have to get close to notice. Color at least right now in the heart of the summer look similar between the two (believe it or not... I may even think the TTTF has a slightly better color although hard to tell as they do not have them next to each other).

For their KBG sod Tuckahoe uses 365SS from Mountain View Seed Co which is a mix of Bolt, Legend & Blue Note.

For their TTTF Sod they use the Winner's Circle mix from Mountain View Seed Co which is a mix of Firecracker, Titanium, Raptor II and Spyder. They add 10% KBG for a binder…..which I have not found out the type yet.

Originally, I wanted KBG for its fill in capabilities so I could regularly put pre-emergent down in the fall and not have to overseed as much (in theory to keep the Triv at bay).

The farmers at Tuckahoe are close to convincing me to go the TTTF route. They say even for themselves they prefer it….saying….the TTTF is better heat, drought and disease resistant and overall much less needy and germinates pretty quickly. For homeowners they really suggest the TTTF although both are available.

Knowing the Poa Triv situation......Do you think going TTTF is a mistake? I'm leaning in that direction.

Thoughts?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Cagnomark said:


> BTW… Many thanks to GM560...for mentioning Tuckahoe Sod Farm in NJ. Love their sod and they are a pleasure to deal with.


Great to hear.

In terms of your KBG blend vs TTTF/KBG mix question, I think it is personal preference. They can both look absolutely fantastic, however I am partial to the bluegrass. I like the texture of it and the color. I also think it would be a ton of fun to be watching a Penn State (or Steelers or Packers, etc) game, knowing my lawn was grown right next to that sod on the field.... but I am a nerd like that.

Just FYI, the 10% KBG in the TTTF mix is not insignificant. If your main draw to the KBG is the self repair, you will get it with this mix. The 10% is deceiving, as what many people do not realize is KBG has a much higher seed count per 1 lb (1.5 million seed per lb for KBG and 230k for TTTF). What this means is if they seeded with a 90/10 mix of TTTF to KBG, assuming all those seeds germinated, the total population of grass plants in the lawn would be in the area of 40% KBG.

As for the triv battle. I know people like to say KBG will fill back in if you have to nuke triv... it doesn't happen all that fast. In fact I have wondered if KBG is actually the worst grass to battle triv with, since reseeding can take so long. Bottom line is I hope you got all the triv because fighting it is gonna suck regardless of if you have TTTF or KBG.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

If you guys have a triv patch that is browning for summer dormancy, can you post a photo so we'll know what we're looking for? Thanks


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Cagnomark, TTTF also helps make any Triv stick out a bit better. It just looks more wrong to the eye, if that helps.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Guys just be cafefull on the terms.

Drought resistance is different in TTTF vs KBG it's not comparable in reality.

KBG will go dormant much more quickly than TTTF but TTTF DOESNT GO DORMANT !!!

Dormancy for TTTF is death !!!

So while the guys selling you TTTF is right to some degree remember that you'll most likely be overseeding or repairing patches in the future while KBG will fix itself with plugs.

What does this lead to ? You guessed it more of a chance of Triv Seeds Making it into your lawn :lol:
(let alone the fact that the newly seeded TTTF may not match unless you can get the same seed the sod provider uses)

Until TTTF has the spreadability of KBG, I wouldn't consider, while this is harsh, I want the most efficient solution.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

@Cagnomark Did you catch this?


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

hmmmm... decisions decisions,,,, LOL.

One way or the other,,,,,,have to make a call soon.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

In a summer like the current one..... it would be easy to keep KBG and TTTF from faultering/going dormat (Lots of rain and so far and not much drastic heat...... but in a normal summer not so sure.

Is it possible from keeping KBG from going dormant in a normal summer where weeks on end in the hot humid weather of NJ by watering afrequently and plentiful or do you think it just outright difficult/impossible.

Have a few more days before my final decision.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Cagnomark said:


> Is it possible from keeping KBG from going dormant in a normal summer where weeks on end in the hot humid weather of NJ by watering afrequently and plentiful or do you think it just outright difficult/impossible.
> 
> Have a few more days before my final decision.


Depends how you want it to look and how much traffic it needs to hold up to.

I think I've watered my low input area like 4 times so far this year. Some brown, but most of it is still alive. And I'm still mowing, so the TTTF and KBG aren't dormant for the most part. Doesn't look spectacular, but hanging on.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

If I were a sod farm, and I had a surplus of one grass and not the other, thats what I'd be pushing on my customers.

Ask em if they have kbg availible, it would be halarious if they said no, sold out


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

They do indeed have kbg and same price as tttf.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

@Cagnomark Whats happening up there? You pulling the tarp off and sodding soon? Curious as to where you landed on this project.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Could use some expert advice.

Today I took the plastic sheeting off…2 weeks prior to laying the sod (just in case I had weeds to kill).

All seems to have worked out well despite the weather in NJ which was extremely wet and mild compared to the usual summer weather in NJ.

Anyway….I came across an issue I do not know how to deal with.

Before I put the plastic down I put 2" of topsoil down.

When I lifted the plastic today the topsoil is very….well…..soft….when I walk….my feet sink over an inch. I would have thought the watering before I put the plastic down and then solarization would have compacted the soil. Not the case at all.

What do you think I do? Roll it? If so, before the sod? after I lay the sod???

Never ran into this so I am flying blind.

Advice really needed. Don't want to screw this up after all the work.


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## JerseyGreens (Aug 30, 2019)

Cagnomark said:


> Could use some expert advice.
> 
> Today I took the plastic sheeting off…2 weeks prior to laying the sod (just in case I had weeds to kill).
> 
> ...




Roll it. I had this issue. Asphalt roller was one of the best tools I utilized on my Reno.

My feet were sinking in 2-3 inches in some areas due to the insane late July storms last year while I fallowed. I knew that wouldn't end well as I wanted to reel mow the new lawn. Wasn't going to let mother nature settle/compact all of that soil leaving ruts.

I have the Brinly roller if you want to borrow it. I'm actually 10-15 minutes away from you.


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

Triv down here is toasty brown right now--been watching neighbor's spots that have it. It looks like a dead fungus or lack of water patch when glancing at the greater lawn, but I know from what it looked like in the spring that they are Triv patches left uncared for. I expect them to wake back up in about a month down here in NC. Cooler climates probably are getting close to that point now?

So far I don't spot Triv in my lawn after the spring kill and seed in those spots, but about 30-40% of the grass didn't survive the peak summer heat, even with 1" irrigation a week. That's okay though, since it kept me green for a few months, and planning to overseed next month.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

I would roll it and drag it prior to sod. Asphalt roller is a cool option. You could also just rent a roller from HD that you fill with water (or borrow like offered above). I have a harrow rake that you could certainly borrow if you would like.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B014SY8AMS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Who is installing the sod? You or an installer? Might be worth a call into them to see what they recommend.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

Thanks…..I will try to roll it. Thanks so much for the offer to borrow the roller. I think my neighbor has one…I will ask him but I really do appreciate the offer.

I am installing via a landscaper not the sod farm but it's a good idea I will ask them. The landscaper I am not sure knows the right answer.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Cagnomark said:


> Thanks…..I will try to roll it. Thanks so much for the offer to borrow the roller. I think my neighbor has one…I will ask him but I really do appreciate the offer.
> 
> I am installing via a landscaper not the sod farm but it's a good idea I will ask them. The landscaper I am not sure knows the right answer.


Good luck! Have a few cold ones ready after rolling that large area. Which sod did you settle on? 356SS or the TTTF/KBG Blend?


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

The sod farm convinced me to go the tttf/kbg blend. It is a high(30%) kbg. They showed me both and color and texture of both looked great. They say it's significantly easier to keep in the summer, less water needed and they feel more disease resistant and similar in color especially from afar. (Can I see the difference? Yes but it does look really good). We'll see how quickly the 30% turns into a much higher %. I'll overseed with tttf each year when needed since it germinates so much quicker.

Bought the seed of the cultivars in the blend. Tested it out. I have reasonable germination of the tttf within 5 days. Not too shabby.

Still concerned about the triv when overseeding but a) hopefully won't have to overseen for a while and b) learned my lesson and will deal with the triv as I see it.


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## Cagnomark (May 16, 2021)

So a bit of an update....

Plastic was pulled up in early sept. I don't think it was hot enough last summer for true solarization but....other than on the outside edges of the plastic all was clearly dead. I'll post the pics of the weed that was on the outside edges...its was a tough SOB. I think it was laughing at me for solarizing and said bring it on..... Naturally, I glysophated those bad boys. The TTTF/KBG mix sod went down after that... about mid sept. I'll post pictures of it down after a week or so....I think I watered a bit too much where it got too soggy in certain sections but overall was very happy. I unfortunately lost the pictures that I took with a new drone after the sod took root and where the lawn looked fantastic before the winter came about. I don't know how I deleted them...pretty upsetting.

Once the sod took root & was growing, I hit about 20 very small areas with glyspohate when i saw some different shades growing (the whole 2bl glove thing). 20 sounds like a lot but not so bad given we are dealing with 30k Sq ft. (I ended up sodding both front and back). Not sure it was triv but was paranoid so I did it.

So far the grass is starting to green up and I don't see any weeds at all on the lawn which is a good sign as I have already hit my flower beds with weed killer as weeds were popping up everywhere. So other than the 20 or so small spots that I glyspohated and a number of dog spots.....that I have to reseed.....so far so good....We'll see...fingers crossed.

Some pics:


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