# PRG Overseed 2022



## TigerKnight (Apr 13, 2019)

I know it is early, but I am starting to plan for it...

I am thinking of overseeding my Celebration with PRG this year. The lawn is healthy, except for a few thin spots in shade (which I am working on). My lawn was put in 12 months ago.

I have seen a ton of wonderful looking overseed lawns, but I am curious as to the actual difference it makes in spring green up and a healthy stand come summer if done correctly. I understand there are always challenges, but I have heard some horror stories on PRG causing issues. I assume these folks do not spray out the PRG early enough or don't do that at all.

My plan is to scalp and seed PRG at 7 lb/K around early October (Athens, GA) and keep it watered (irrigation). Sometime in late February, I would spray it out with 1-2 apps of MSM and then put down the pre-em in mid-March (pending soil temps).

Should I go for it? I am thinking of at least trying with my 2K front lawn this year as a learning experience.


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## Zimmerman (May 20, 2019)

Go for it! I did it the first time last year. I waited until after The Masters to spray it out (way too late). It took me until mid-July to get back to even with my back yard. But i had a green yard year-round. It took me two rounds of msm turf and the early drought we had to kill all of my ryegrass. I think if you just spray it out before you're really ready to kill it, you'll be happy.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Go for it! I tested it out on my back yard the year before last and wanted to do the front last year but we had a baby at the end of September. I will be doing my front this year as long as I can source some good seed.

Here are my takeaways:
1. Get a good prepped surface. I only scalped mine and the PRG was a lot thinner in the places where the Bermuda was thickest. So this year I will definitely be verticutting as well to really get the canopy opened up. 
2. Split the seedings up, I threw down 10 lbs/k all at once, this year I'm going to do two rounds of 6 lbs/k.

3. The PRG was pretty N hungry and I wasn't giving it enough. Will probably do every other week spoon feedings after the initial fert app.

4. I will probably use revolver for spraying out. I did multiple rounds of MSM and still had some left over this year. I think these higher end varieties are more resistant to it.

5. I kept mine until the first of April because we was having our gender reveal and wanted it to look really good. Now I know this goes against what most people do and it could be part of the reason I had trouble getting rid of it, but I will do the same this time. Reason is because it looked it's best there at the end(think Augusta National green) and it transitioned right into Bermuda with no brown in between. Also the Bermuda came in great and didn't have any trouble spots but YMMV.


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## Chadwicktr (May 26, 2020)

Go for it. Sounds like you have a good plan.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Bumping this now that it's September. Got my seed and now just waiting for the heat to break later this month and will be getting the PRG party started. Who all else is doing it this year?


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Current plan is to redo the front lawn by adding in a circle driveway. If it gets done in time (early October), I'll be seeding the front yard.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

I am going to overseed for my first time. I recently got 100 pounds of seed from Hancock. I'm hoping I don't regret the decision.


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## jim7white (Jul 6, 2020)

If you want an incredible lawn through the winter, go for it. A couple of things to note: if you have shade, the rye really takes hold in those areas, and even a few applications of MSM might not get it all. Any remaining rye in the spring will hold back bermuda green up and fill-in. After three years of overseeding I'm going to take a year off. Enjoy, it's a fun process.


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## TigerKnight (Apr 13, 2019)

Thanks. We are having a baby end of Oct., so I am likely not going to undertake it this year...

However, I am thinking about trying out the Endurant Turf Paint - https://turfpaint.net/

I am curious if others have used this product. They claim it does not come off on clothes/shoes any more than grass would normally stain clothes.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Phoenix is HOT in the summer time. Yardwork from the end of June, into July, August, Sept, and until almost Halloween isn't my favorite. "Winter" PRG and the late spring transition back to bermuda are the best times to really enjoy our yard here for me.

So, I'm probably still 6 to 8 weeks out before the local temps cooperate enough to let the real fun begin. In spite of that, I'm waiting for this years PRG seed supply to arrive soon so I can snag it early before it has any chance to sell out. I hope to FULLY enjoy a bunch of time outside this fall, "winter" and into all of next year ... this year has been personally brutal for me so far, so I'm looking forward to some great yard time.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I'd skip overseed on a newish lawn, but I've never done it. I've seen the reports back that while you enjoy a green yard during winter, you don't enjoy a solid spring green up in some cases.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

I plan to do this as well. I'm in Texas so, once temps drop enough I'll be doing the same. Purely for the experience. Also, I'd love to see the difference in textures when comparing common Bermuda and PRG at low heights. Also wondering if it gets plenty dark.


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

Is PRG as juicy as annual ryegrass? I overseeded with annual ryegrass last year and hated cutting it. It was clumpy, wet, and made a mess.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@DFW245 PRG is a nice dark green. Throw a little iron at it if you want and it usually amps it up a little. Once established and tillers (multiple leaves) are popping from the original blade, I like bringing the height down. I think 1/2" looks great, It stripes great, is soft, and gets dense/thick.

@franktiberi PRG is no where near as juicy as annual. Annual is a soggy nasty nightmare. I have found though, it can be tolerable once established and you can cut the water way back. But even so, PRG for the win.


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

Does it make sense to use PGR on PRG once it gets established?


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

@franktiberi yes it's actually very beneficial. I'll be following these steps:
https://www.greencastonline.com/techarticle.aspx?type=feature&paid=193861


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> @DFW245 PRG is a nice dark green. Throw a little iron at it if you want and it usually amps it up a little. Once established and tillers (multiple leaves) are popping from the original blade, I like bringing the height down. I think 1/2" looks great, It stripes great, is soft, and gets dense/thick.
> 
> @franktiberi PRG is no where near as juicy as annual. Annual is a soggy nasty nightmare. I have found though, it can be tolerable once established and you can cut the water way back. But even so, PRG for the win.


Interesting. Looks like I'll be putting prg on prg....wait......pGr on the pRg once I get it. lol. I'll have my reel mower by then so I'll really be able to have a beautiful lawn. I plan on putting a high rate of PGR down on the Bermuda before scalping and seeding. So that way it doesn't take over too much of the pRg once it's germinating. Again, my reel mower should help with that. I hope it gets anywhere near as dark as my Monaco Bermuda is. If so I'll be happy. I'm more worried about the texture and the under foot feel compared to improved common Bermuda.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

There are many great examples of PRG being used for some really nice turf. I think Wimbeldon is a good example even though it's strictly prg. Search other major events played on grass/turf and there are a bunch that do prg overseeding.

https://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/atoz/grass_courts.html


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> PhxHeat said:
> 
> 
> > @DFW245 PRG is a nice dark green. Throw a little iron at it if you want and it usually amps it up a little. Once established and tillers (multiple leaves) are popping from the original blade, I like bringing the height down. I think 1/2" looks great, It stripes great, is soft, and gets dense/thick.
> ...


The texture is nicer imo. It's very soft. I love walking around barefoot on it.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> DFW245 said:
> 
> 
> > PhxHeat said:
> ...


All I needed to hear.


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## Chadwicktr (May 26, 2020)

PhxHeat said:


> I have found though, it can be tolerable once established and you can cut the water way back.


+1 on this. As long as I kept up with regular mowing and used a side discharge, I was fine. But if I skipped a mowing, it was very messy (Pennington ARG).


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## CLT49er (Jun 19, 2020)

Cutting costs this year and going w annual rye despite its issues. Anyone have an annual they like? Hancock has their own branded annual 50# for $65 including shipping. Guessing its better than $65 bag of Pennington from HD. ??


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

I'm currently planning on seeding the last week of September in North Alabama. Anyone in the area know when they have seeded theirs in the past? Was it looking decent by Halloween? My normal application rate of PGR is .25 oz/M. I plan on hitting it a little harder 5 days before the scalp and overseed. Does anyone have experience on how much harder I should hit it? I have tifway 419 currently maintained at 3/4". Thanks


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## Chadwicktr (May 26, 2020)

@CLT49er I've only tried Pennington but was harpy with it last year.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

CLT49er said:


> Cutting costs this year and going w annual rye despite its issues. Anyone have an annual they like? Hancock has their own branded annual 50# for $65 including shipping. Guessing its better than $65 bag of Pennington from HD. ??


For the last 3 seasons I've used Annual from Tractor Supply Company for my back yard. It germinates incredibly fast with minimal prep. I'm talking mow low, bag, maybe a light raking, water the yard the night before, seed.... I don't even waste any fertilizer on it. Then very light watering for a min or two every 1.5 to 2 hours during direct sunlight times. It flat out grows.

HOWEVER, (public service announcement) ... It (annual rye) is DEFINITELY A WET, SLOPPY, STAINING MESS for at least the first month. If I put annual in the back this year, I will be experimenting further with cutting water back sooner, like when I see solid germination happening and not waiting for full blades of grass. Good lord I think annual rye stores more moisture than ocean kelp does. I'll look for pics of mine from last season and mower shots to post up.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

*Scalp day. Seeded on the 10th.*









*Day 5*









*Day 11, Oct 21st*

























*A wet sloppy mess. Had to clean every couple passes at least.*









*3 days later, I got impatient and gave it a cut with the Jacobsen. I should have waited as I ripped out a bunch and broke a bunch more off at the soil. It still looked ok, but I should have let it mature more and be better rooted before I hit it so hard with the reel.*









*... and because this thread is about PRG ... an up close of my PRG from "winter" of 20/21 at about 1/4"-ish hoc. * Full sun pic, no shadow grass .... love the darker green and great density of it.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

PhxHeat said:


> *Scalp day. Seeded on the 10th.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

@Reel_Alabama that's when I plan on doing mine as well. The last time I did I put seed down Sep 18th but I think I was a touch early as the Bermuda started to come back good by the end of Oct. For the PGR I'm going to run 0.75 Oz rate and really shut it down.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> @Reel_Alabama that's when I plan on doing mine as well. The last time I did I put seed down Sep 18th but I think I was a touch early as the Bermuda started to come back good by the end of Oct. For the PGR I'm going to run 0.75 Oz rate and really shut it down.


Thank you for the info. When your Bermuda came back last time had you applied PGR at that .75oz/M rate?


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Reel_Alabama said:


> coreystooks said:
> 
> 
> > @Reel_Alabama that's when I plan on doing mine as well. The last time I did I put seed down Sep 18th but I think I was a touch early as the Bermuda started to come back good by the end of Oct. For the PGR I'm going to run 0.75 Oz rate and really shut it down.
> ...


No I did 0.5oz/M but I also didn't apply after overseeding like I'm planning on doing this time.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

@coreystooks

Thanks. I just looked at you journals. Keep up the good work.


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## lsk5013 (Aug 14, 2020)

Is it possible to apply Pre-Em as usual (and soon), but then put down PRG? Or is it simply about choosing one lane or the other? Just bought a 50# bag of Hancock's PRG (since Champions GQ was sold out) to try out doing the "PRG thing" for the first time, but was hoping to still put down Simazine and Specticle G this fall too. Long story short, not sure what to do


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> *Scalp day. Seeded on the 10th.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait so you're saying it's best to cut with a rotary for a while before switching to a powered reel?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

DFW245 said:


> Wait so you're saying it's best to cut with a rotary for a while before switching to a powered reel?


I don't believe I said that at all  . But since you bring it up, I do prefer to cut mine with the rotary for the first few cuts or so. I typically use PRG in the front yard and annual in the backyard. I try and let the seedlings get a decent hold before I make that first mow/cut and they'll be 2"-3"+ that first cut. The PRG for me is pretty wet that first cut and the annual is a really soggy wet mess. Also at that point the new rye blades are so flimsy and easily fold over. So I make sure to put a nice sharp edge on the rotary and find that its "lifting" motion helps stand the flimsy wet blades for cutting. After a few rotary mows, I have the height down, the blades/roots are a bit better rooted/mature, and the wetness resolved ... then I start my reel cutting.

So my pic above was me showing the wet sloppy mess that I find Annual rye to be, especially the first cut. I decided to try my Jacobsen on it (the annual) for the 2nd cut, 3 days after the 1st. The grass was still a bit too tall, still way too wet (imo), and I was probably a bit too low/aggressive with the hoc. The result I experienced was what I was describing above. Is that typical?, I don't know but it was what happened on the annual. In previous years, waiting another week (after 2 more rotary mows) to use the reel I didn't have the same experience.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

lsk5013 said:


> Is it possible to apply Pre-Em as usual (and soon), but then put down PRG? Or is it simply about choosing one lane or the other?


The rye won't germinate/grow if you do pre-em first because it stops seeds from germinating. Seed your rye, let it germinate and grow. You'll want to make sure you have good grass coverage first so there aren't any bare spots. I'd wait on any pre-em until you get a 1st mow/cut and are happy with rye coverage. Initially rye shoots up 1 blade per seed, then it shoots off more blades on each stem called tillers and fills up space. The pre-em will "miss" some of the initial weed seed germination, but it will stop a bunch too. The rye should also help limit weeds.


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## dsotm (Feb 21, 2018)

What's everyone paying this year? Probably won't start til mid-late October


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## itslogz (Apr 21, 2021)

dsotm said:


> What's everyone paying this year? Probably won't start til mid-late October


I called Ewing in Raleigh NC today and was told $195 a bag for birdie blend like I used last year. I will not be doing it this year lol


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## robbybobby (May 15, 2017)

I think I'm skipping it all together this year. Baby #2 due beginning of November + the ever increasing cost of seed.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Paid $130 for mine from a local seed place.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Just got back with my PRG seed for the front yard.
The seed arrived locally yesterday.

Out the door with tax ... $131.35 for 50 lb bag.
Iirc, it was about $10 more last year. Gone are
the days of 3 years ago and before where I
was paying $50-55 per 50 lb bag.

Tri-Blend of 90% Oregon grown, no idea where the
other % came from or why it isn't listed.
Label reads:
SEED TESTED 08-2022
•33.05% Blackstone
•32.77% Black Pearl
•31.06% Black Sparrow
..........................
• .75% other crop seed
• 2.32% inert matter
• .05% weed seed (weed free)


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Now I wait and wait and wait for our temps to
hit go time. :bd:


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## lsk5013 (Aug 14, 2020)

PhxHeat said:


> lsk5013 said:
> 
> 
> > Is it possible to apply Pre-Em as usual (and soon), but then put down PRG? Or is it simply about choosing one lane or the other?
> ...


Thanks for the advice. I guess here in Metro Atlanta I'll be waiting a little bit then for the cooler temps to hit to drop the PRG, wait for that to grow like you say, and then I guess drop the Pre Em down in what I would imagine be Nov/Dec then(?) …(cue my nerves around spring poa and other weed growth)


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> @Reel_Alabama that's when I plan on doing mine as well. The last time I did I put seed down Sep 18th but I think I was a touch early as the Bermuda started to come back good by the end of Oct. For the PGR I'm going to run 0.75 Oz rate and really shut it down.


Last year I applied 4oz/M of Propiconazole on 10/12 trying to prevent SDS. It shut all my growth down. I'm considering an application of PGR at .5oz/M and 2oz/M of Propiconazole 5 days before the scalp. I'm hoping it will really hold the Bermuda back and allow the PRG to take off without much competition. Anyone else do something similar?


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## Slim 1938 (Aug 24, 2019)

I'm really debating overseeding this time around due to cost. I did annual last year and it was beautiful and super easy to grow but it's messy as hell. I have a neighbor down the road that has a erosion control business and he does hydroseeding. Im thinking about getting a quote on him doing backyard. I would still have to get some seed to hit areas that are thin or get washed out. &#129300;


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## adidasUNT8 (Jul 23, 2020)

I picked up some good Hancock seed last year but it seems like it's not available this year now. What's a good value seed to get this season?


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## dofdk3 (4 mo ago)

Silly question probably, but with PRG overseed, do you just throw the seed out? No aerating, verticutting, slit-seeding, or anything?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@dofdk3 here around the Phoenix metro area there is quite a bit of overseeding that gets done for our best weather months. I've seen a ton of different ways it gets done, from darn near no prep to full blown everything you posted + more.

What I like the best for me and my yard:
●The day BEFORE seeding...
I mow low.
I scalp down near to the dirt.
I use rotary Honda to "vacuum" /suck up whatever.
I remove/bag all clippings and yard trash.
●That afternoon...
I use a drop spreader and fertilize.
I run a regular sprinkler program.
●Seeding morning...
I fill the drop spreader with seed and as needed.
At a minimum I do two passes "#" style. But if I have more seed to put down I will also do diagonal passes. IF you still have low cut grass or stems, I drag a leaf rake over the yard in all directions to help get the seed distributed down into the canopy for better soil contact.
Then I do a quick water cycle. Then I set the sprinklers for 1 or 2 minute cycles and run them once an hour or 1.5hrs or 2 hours from about 9 am to 5 pm. Time spacing of watering for me depends on temps and if the things look wet, damp, or dry. A hard search on day 3 may produce a seedling or two. Usually about day 5 sprouting ramps up and gets going good.


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## dofdk3 (4 mo ago)

@PhxHeat Thanks!!!


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

Chadwicktr said:


> @CLT49er I've only tried Pennington but was harpy with it last year.


Is that Pennington Fairway Supreme PRG?


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## Chadwicktr (May 26, 2020)

@cokenner, no just ARG. I have a side discharge, so didn't have any issues with cutting ARG as long as I cut it regularly.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Pennington-50-lb-Annual-Ryegrass-Grass-Seed-100082644/100333280?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D28O-028_006_SEED-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-SMART_SHP&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D28O-028_006_SEED-NA-NA-NA-SMART-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-SMART_SHP-71700000064195859-58700005709850381-92700052081027736&gbraid=0AAAAADq61UcGsqRedtT340kl4tS3j1nCv&gbraid=0AAAAADq61UcGsqRedtT340kl4tS3j1nCv&gclid=CjwKCAjw4JWZBhApEiwAtJUN0ISiOuMBxh1EbDyxlzJmkMLr5xFfgXooegI_XSZ85IpIxEXf2CPngxoC9KQQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

on the topic the Pennington Fairway Supreme or many other big box store seed brands ... I highly suggest reading the seed label on the bag. I quit buying their seed 4 or 5 years back after they decided seed wasn't important in their bags of seed. I didn't look this year figuring it hasn't improved and probably got worse .... but iirc their seed percentages were only something like 47-ish % of the total weight of a bag. A big chunk of the remaining weight was unneccessary "coating" and filler ("organic material") and in some cases an unacceptable amount of weed seed l. You might ask what does that mean??? Well it means you are paying a lot more money for a lot less seed and you'll end up with a lower density grass result due to far less seeds.

I really encourage everyone to read the tags/labels that are required to be on the bags of seed you are buying.


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> on the topic the Pennington Fairway Supreme or many other big box store seed brands ... I highly suggest reading the seed label on the bag. I quit buying their seed 4 or 5 years back after they decided seed wasn't important in their bags of seed. I didn't look this year figuring it hasn't improved and probably got worse .... but iirc their seed percentages were only something like 47-ish % of the total weight of a bag. A big chunk of the remaining weight was unneccessary "coating" and filler ("organic material") and in some cases an unacceptable amount of weed seed l. You might ask what does that mean??? Well it means you are paying a lot more money for a lot less seed and you'll end up with a lower density grass result due to far less seeds.
> 
> I really encourage everyone to read the tags/labels that are required to be on the bags of seed you are buying.


I'm considering returning the seed because of this. My bag did not come with a seed analysis, but I figured as much with the added fert coating. My issue is there's not a lot available locally. I'm going to order something online through Ace I think, maybe Barenbrug Wonderlawn PRG.


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## Chadwicktr (May 26, 2020)

I just read my label for Pennington ARG - 96.3% seed. :thumbsup:


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## ADanto6840 (Apr 1, 2021)

I'm ~90% sure I want to overseed with rye this year, last year it was a little tough to take the dormant TifTuf color.

Few questions:

*A) Re: ARG*

How bad is ARG, really? I mainly care about aesthetic/color, uniformity, and "kid usability" -- with my kids playing on the turf every day, will my kids have turned green by evening each day?
Spring green-up -- Will ARG just die out by itself, via low HOC & high sun/heat? Or do you still have to spray it out for optimal green-up? 
With ARG, what's the "maintainence" HoC recommendation (ie after established)?

*B) General*

What cultivars are recommended - primarily asking for PRG (though I'm not decided on PRG vs ARG quite yet)? I looked at Hancock, they have their "generic", but the higher-end cultivar appears to be out of stock or pre-order, etc.
Has anyone had success with overseeding TifTuf and *not* spraying it out in the spring? I've seen at least 1 article online which implied that overseeded TifTuf (article here, from supersod -- mowed with an automower at 0.5") would outcompete even PRG, without needing to spray it out at all. 
What application rates do you use for overseeding? My plan would probably be 2X/split application, probably at slightly over label rate, though curious to hear what has worked well for others. I've read through some of your journals but is hard to extract/normalize the data.
Just to confirm, but it sounds like PRG can be kept looking good at reel-level HoCs (ie ~1" or less), once established?

I know I'm probably close to pushing the timeframe on getting seed down (eh, maybe still have a few weeks), but generally I'd hope to get the seed by early next week and probably get it down within the next ~week or two -- evening temperatures have dropped quite a bit here already (upcoming week has night lows in high-60s to mid-70s).

Appreciate any thoughts!


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## TigerKnight (Apr 13, 2019)

How low have you all mowed PRG? I am thinking of modifying part of my lawn into a putting green. My initial thought is to seed with PRG and then spray and sprig with TifEagle in the Spring. I would love to mow at around 1/8 in.


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

ADanto6840 said:


> I'm ~90% sure I want to overseed with rye this year, last year it was a little tough to take the dormant TifTuf color.
> 
> Few questions:
> 
> ...


*A) Re: ARG*

*How bad is ARG, really?* I overseeded with Barenbrug SOS MAXX ARG last year and I thought it was gorgeous. The color was uniform and it was nice to walk on. My complaint about ARG is that it's a juicy grass. It makes a mess when you cut it; the blades stick to your mower, get all over your driveway, shoes... For this reason I wouldn't ever bother with it again. From what others have said earlier in this thread, PRG doesn't have this issue.
*Spring green-up* My yard is heavy shade so YMMV, but I wish I had sprayed it out in the spring. I didn't spray it out and my bermuda didn't recover well at all. The ARG naturally died off from the heat; I imagine PRG would have hung around for a lot longer.
*With ARG, what's the "maintainence" HoC recommendation (ie after established)?* I maintained my ARG at .5" with a reel mower and it was awesome. I'm sure you could cut it even shorter if you desired.

*B) General*

*What application rates do you use for overseeding?* Whatever rate you go with, have some extra seed. I had several spots in my yard that were very slow to germinate, and I had to put more seed down in those areas. There were also some areas that I had to repair due to deer running in my yard, and it was nice having a lot of seed left over to do that.
*Just to confirm, but it sounds like PRG can be kept looking good at reel-level HoCs (ie ~1" or less), once established?* Yes.

Additional note: I imagine PRG is similar, but the ARG seed I had was rated to germinate down to 40°F. Thanks to this I was able to fill in thin areas with seed as late as January and February.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Was at Home Depot today and decided to look at the PRG. As I expected, even less seed, and a higher price.

Pennington Fairway Supreme $99.98 per 50lb bag

*Only 41.5% seed.*
*20.75 lbs of seed :shock: in a 50 lb bag*
27 lbs of coating
2.2 lbs of misc seed/innert matter
.05 lb of weed seed
50 lbs total


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

TigerKnight said:


> How low have you all mowed PRG? I am thinking of modifying part of my lawn into a putting green. My initial thought is to seed with PRG and then spray and sprig with TifEagle in the Spring. I would love to mow at around 1/8 in.


Wimbledon maintains their prg at about 1/2"-5/8" until tournament time and then drops their height down to just a hair below 5/16th or 8mm.

Not sure how low you can go and still have much color, but I'd think it'll take a fairly heavy rate of seed to get a greens low hoc.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

PhxHeat said:


> Was at Home Depot today and decided to look at the PRG. As I expected, even less seed, and a higher price.
> 
> Pennington Fairway Supreme $99.98 per 50lb bag
> 
> ...


That's insane, once you factor in germination rate only about 17lbs will actually come up.


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## ADanto6840 (Apr 1, 2021)

My pickup locally today ($60):

https://imgur.com/a/4UbIG5k


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## abovepargolfer (Jun 17, 2020)

ADanto6840 said:


> My pickup locally today ($60):
> 
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/4UbIG5k


Where did you find that?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

you Vegas peeps (and others) should call around to local garden store/nurseries and sprinkler supply places. Here in Phoenix they all pretty much have "their own" label/blends they sell.


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## Slim 1938 (Aug 24, 2019)

@ADanto6840 yeah it's messy man. I always made my kids change into old clothes when playing in backyard because it would stain badly.


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## ADanto6840 (Apr 1, 2021)

abovepargolfer said:


> ADanto6840 said:
> 
> 
> > My pickup locally today ($60):
> ...


Star Nursery. Had to go to two different locations to find it. I even called the store first, was told they "we have *perennial* ryegrass in stock"... but when I got to the store, they only had ARG. =|

The 2nd Star Nursery that I went to did have PRG in stock, only 1 SKU of it & only 2 bags (meaning that particular store no longer has any PRG in stock since I bought both bags, heh). 

There isn't a whole lot of grass seed at the big box stores here. The big box stores have garbage seed, usually <50-60% is actual seed (even the stuff I bought is only 80%), and the prices are generally astronomical. Most of the retail stuff is "consumer-ish" style/branded stuff that's way overpriced. The nurseries don't really stock much either. Tractor Supply has some, but no PRG, mainly just bulk cool season "blends", ARG, and some bulk "pasture" blends that are cheap. Star Nursery has *lots* of ARG (and it's cheap too) along with lots of high-price & low-quantity consumer-ish/branded blends.

*RE: ARG* -- You guys have me fully & thoroughly convinced that I should go with PRG over ARG!!

I am a little curious -- what's the harm in *not* spraying it out in the spring? Is the color that distinctive that it just looks bad? I already have the herbicides needed to spray it out effectively, but I'm just curious if it's always even needed, or what the main impetus is. My TifTuf is extremely aggressive & dense, hell it'll grow onto & over concrete if I let it. I have a hard time believing that much of anything could outcompete it, at least/especially during the prime growing season!

Anyways, probably still a little warm here for overseeding, although my TifTuf is already starting to look less than thrilled as the days shorten & temperatures drop. I figure I'll probably be looking at putting the seed down in the next 1-2 weeks. I plan to at least some verticutting prior to seeding, too.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

ADanto6840 said:


> *RE: ARG* -- You guys have me fully & thoroughly convinced that I should go with PRG over ARG!!
> 
> I am a little curious -- what's the harm in *not* spraying it out in the spring? Is the color that distinctive that it just looks bad? I already have the herbicides needed to spray it out effectively, but I'm just curious if it's always even needed, or what the main impetus is. My TifTuf is extremely aggressive & dense, hell it'll grow onto & over concrete if I let it. I have a hard time believing that much of anything could outcompete it, at least/especially during the prime growing season!
> 
> Anyways, probably still a little warm here for overseeding, although my TifTuf is already starting to look less than thrilled as the days shorten & temperatures drop. I figure I'll probably be looking at putting the seed down in the next 1-2 weeks. I plan to at least some verticutting prior to seeding, too.


PRG is an allelopathic plant. In basic terms, it can emit a chemical into the soil from its roots that can really suppress spring germination and even wipe some plants/grasses out. Spraying out the prg as the bermuda "wakes up" greatly reduces the risk of the prg chemical release. It's also supposed to help get the bermuda going quicker as it gets more sun and water.

I've never sprayed out my prg. I've had pretty good luck with bringing the hoc down to about 1/4"+- when temps should be waking the bermuda up. The warmer it gets the more the bermuda kicks in and the rye dies off. It takes less water to get bermuda growing than it does to keep short prg going in warmer temps. With a lower hoc and reduced water the rye seems to die out nicely as the bermuda takes off in warmer temps.

As for seeding the prg in our similar climates, I agree that it's still bit too warm. Rye does great once temps and daylight hours drop to really slow the bermuda down. I'll keep an eye on conditions, but I'm guessing 2 to 3 weeks out before I throw down.


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## ADanto6840 (Apr 1, 2021)

@PhxHeat -- Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I feel quite a bit more confident about overseeding now -- appreciate it very much!

Am looking forward to hopefully having a green lawn all winter long! =D


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

ADanto6840 said:


> @PhxHeat -- Thank you, that's extremely helpful. I feel quite a bit more confident about overseeding now -- appreciate it very much!
> 
> Am looking forward to hopefully having a green lawn all winter long! =D


Have fun mowing, too! If PRG grows anything like my ARG did, you're going to be very busy! :lol:


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

Found some DLF Pickseed Futura 2000 locally, surprisingly! 50# bag for $45! Test date 2020…. I was able to get a great price by pointing this out.



Only need 20# or so, so if some isn't viable I have a lot more for backup.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Seed down in North AL this evening.


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## abovepargolfer (Jun 17, 2020)

coreystooks said:


> Seed down in North AL this evening.


How low did you scalp it? And did you put down a fertilizer as well?


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

abovepargolfer said:


> coreystooks said:
> 
> 
> > Seed down in North AL this evening.
> ...


Went down to 0.4", also verticut it two directions.


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## SisyphusMiner (11 mo ago)

Looking at PRG for backyard this year in N. Tx to keep the mud down that gets tracked in. I've tried ARG in the past and like everyone else's experience it wasn't much good.

Looking for some thoughts, but if all this is addressed elsewhere please feel free to just point me to it. I tried searching but couldn't quite find what I was looking for (probably a "me" problem).

I would have thought that it would be time to do the seeding sometime in the next couple weeks but we've been quite warm, still in the 80s and bermuda still going strong. Should I still plan on doing it soon? I will not be home weekend of Oct 8-10 so it would be before or after. First frost date on average is Nov 12

From what I've read, I need to scalp the bermuda. I also think I saw something about verticutting? Is this necessary?
Also, could I seed first and then scalp? I only have a rotary so I'm not getting right down on the ground anyway, but I was thinking that the cut grass would act as a mulch and eliminate the need to scratch the soil. Or is this just bad thinking? Would it smother it instead?

How often / deep should I plan on watering the seed? Daily? Hourly?


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

SisyphusMiner said:


> Looking at PRG for backyard this year in N. Tx to keep the mud down that gets tracked in. I've tried ARG in the past and like everyone else's experience it wasn't much good.
> 
> Looking for some thoughts, but if all this is addressed elsewhere please feel free to just point me to it. I tried searching but couldn't quite find what I was looking for (probably a "me" problem).
> 
> ...


Last year I seeded when highs were in the 70s and lows in the 50s. You want it to be cool enough that the bermuda isn't growing like crazy and out competing your PRG seedlings.

Scalp first with your rotary, then seed. You don't have to verticut.

Keep the seed moist and don't let it dry out. Might be a light watering hourly, might be less depending on your site.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Got my seed in and waiting for temps to fall. In the process of an experimental overseed for this year. Snagged 25lbs of Champion GQ. We shall see how it goes


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## IlliniFaninTX (Jul 15, 2020)

Has anyone ovreseeded their Zoysia successfully? I have Emerald Zoysia and was contemplating overseeding this year.


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

Where is everyone finding PRG seed? I am having a tough time finding anything locally...Panama City, FL in the panhandle


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Humbert810 said:


> Where is everyone finding PRG seed? I am having a tough time finding anything locally...Panama City, FL in the panhandle


Wasn't local. Johnston seed website or Hancock seed. 20lbs for like $90


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

How cool does it need to be to overseed? Down here in TX we are still seeing 90s and mid to high 80s. Last year my Bermuda didn't go dormant until late January.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> How cool does it need to be to overseed? Down here in TX we are still seeing 90s and mid to high 80s. Last year my Bermuda didn't go dormant until late January.


I seeded on October 18 down here. It came in nicely, and it was cool enough that other growth wasn't crazy.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> I seeded on October 18 down here. It came in nicely, and it was cool enough that other growth wasn't crazy.


Alright, I was more worried about PRG germination at such high temps. Everywhere I look says 65 or cooler. We don't get highs in the 60s till Feb or so


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> Alright, I was more worried about PRG germination at such high temps. Everywhere I look says 65 or cooler. We don't get highs in the 60s till Feb or so


I’m my experience, the warmer days help it germinate. I don’t think highs in the 90’s are great, but low to mid 80’s worked well last year. The prior year I went in during late November and got very little germination.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> I’m my experience, the warmer days help it germinate. I don’t think highs in the 90’s are great, but low to mid 80’s worked well last year. The prior year I went in during late November and got very little germination.


What temps were you hitting in late November? Mid 70s? Looks like we might be done with the 90s finally. At least so far. High 80s for sure but 90s appear to be gone. Maybe I'll overseed second week of October.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> What temps were you hitting in late November? Mid 70s? Looks like we might be done with the 90s finally. At least so far. High 80s for sure but 90s appear to be gone. Maybe I'll overseed second week of October.


Man, that year 2020, was pretty cool as I recall. I kept waiting for a rain spell to not have to be on the water all day, and it just backfired. It was in the 60's for the most part, and it just didn't germinate very well. I just looked at the Dallas 10 day, and I would say that the second week of October looks good. Just my experience on it.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> Man, that year 2020, was pretty cool as I recall. I kept waiting for a rain spell to not have to be on the water all day, and it just backfired. It was in the 60's for the most part, and it just didn't germinate very well. I just looked at the Dallas 10 day, and I would say that the second week of October looks good. Just my experience on it.


Ouch. Yeah 2020 was a crazy year in general. Temps included. Alright thanks, hopefully all goes well. By then my leveling project should be complete. And PGR in effect. So far so good.


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## IlliniFaninTX (Jul 15, 2020)

If I put down pre-emergent on 9/15, am I precluded from overseeding this fall?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

IlliniFaninTX said:


> If I put down pre-emergent on 9/15, am I precluded from overseeding this fall?


It depends on which pre-em you used and the rate but most likely you will not be able to overseed this fall.


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## IlliniFaninTX (Jul 15, 2020)

Redtwin said:


> It depends on which pre-em you used and the rate but most likely you will not be able to overseed this fall.


Here is what was applied (TruGreen). 

PREEMERGENT AND BROADLEAF WEED CONTROL 7.05 GAL 3524 SQFT
METHOD:Spray, 2.00 GAL/1000 SQFT
AREAS: Entire Area

PRODUCTS: SURFACTANT (NON-IONIC SURFACTANT) EPA#
RATE:0.0048 GAL/1000 SQFT
APPLIED AMT: 0.0171 GAL


MANOR (METSULFURON METHYL) EPA# 228-373
RATE:0.0115 OZ/1000 SQFT
APPLIED AMT:0.0405 OZ
TARGETS: Annual Broadleaf Weeds, Henbit

SPECTICLE FLO (INDAZIFLAM) EPA# 432-1518
RATE:0.1837 FLOZ/1000 SQFT
APPLIED AMT: 0.6472 FLOZ
TARGETS: Annual Bluegrass, Henbit


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

With that Specticle Flo application I don't think you are going to be able to effectively overseed this season. The MSM also has a decent residual so it has a little bit of a pre-em effect on top of everything else.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Seed down in North AL this evening.


Seeing any germination yet?


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Reel_Alabama said:


> Seeing any germination yet?


Just checked it and starting to see some sprouts.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Just checked it and starting to see some sprouts.


Nice!


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

Decided to take the plunge yesterday, and throw down some PRG. Thought I would try that Pennington PRG. (I went pretty heavy just incase) I’ve been keeping my eyes on soil temps the last few weeks and seems like it’s a good time to throw down. I also top dressed the lawn with peat moss to help with water retention.

I’ll keep you guys posted on the germination.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

I'll be giving it a go this week or next. Champion GQ.


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

Am I allowed to post in this thread even if I'll be planting Midpoint Intermediate Rye? My landscaper was able to get it for $60 for 50lbs bags. I told him that "PGR is better, but for that price I was willing to test it this year." I bought 2 bags and I plan to plant half of it mid October and the rest about two weeks later. If I don't like it, I'm only stuck with it until February.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Deltahedge said:


> Am I allowed to post in this thread even if I'll be planting Midpoint Intermediate Rye? My landscaper was able to get it for $60 for 50lbs bags. I told him that "PGR is better, but for that price I was willing to test it this year." I bought 2 bags and I plan to plant half of it mid October and the rest about two weeks later. If I don't like it, I'm only stuck with it until February.


Of course! I had to order an extra 10 lbs of seed to avoid having to buy another 50 lbs bag locally and I just got the seedworld house blend. When it came in it had on the tag that it was 50% remedy intermediate rye so I've got about 5lbs of it mixed in with mine.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Of course! I had to order an extra 10 lbs of seed to avoid having to buy another 50 lbs bag locally and I just got the seedworld house blend. When it came in it had on the tag that it was 50% remedy intermediate rye so I've got about 5lbs of it mixed in with mine.


What’s the difference? I’ve never even heard of this stuff.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Dono1183 said:


> What’s the difference? I’ve never even heard of this stuff.


I hadn’t either before I got mine, didn’t realize it would be in there. Basically from what I gathered is it’s a cross between annual and perennial that’s supposed to have good turf qualities of perennial but be easier to transition like annual.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> I hadn’t either before I got mine, didn’t realize it would be in there. Basically from what I gathered is it’s a cross between annual and perennial that’s supposed to have good turf qualities of perennial but be easier to transition like annual.


Oh man, that sounds pretty cool. I’ll be keen to see how it goes for you!


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## Trippel24 (Jul 9, 2018)

I asked earlier in this thread, but it wasn't answered.... Do people use Tenacity before over seeding with PRG? Will it cause my Bermuda to struggle in the spring? Was hoping to spray Tenacity pre-seeding and Prodiamine after the PRG germinates.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

First cut today at 1”. Starting to see cotton tips on seed I’m pregerminating so will put that down tomorrow.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Trippel24 said:


> I asked earlier in this thread, but it wasn't answered.... Do people use Tenacity before over seeding with PRG? Will it cause my Bermuda to struggle in the spring? Was hoping to spray Tenacity pre-seeding and Prodiamine after the PRG germinates.


I wouldn’t use tenacity on Bermuda it will ding it pretty bad. I’m not even going to put pre-e on my overseed. Anything that pops up will get killed off when I spray out the rye.


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

Starting to see decent germination. I was a little worried with these temps being a bit on the high side the last few days as well as going into the weekend. But I feel much better now. I’ll try and take some better germination pics.

5th day after seeding


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

coreystooks said:


> I wouldn’t use tenacity on Bermuda it will ding it pretty bad. I’m not even going to put pre-e on my overseed. Anything that pops up will get killed off when I spray out the rye.


I don't think most replied since Tenacity is usually not in our arsenal. I have heard of some people applying it when dormant but then you never hear back from them which is bad sign. PGR overseeds are tough enough on bermuda with the late season scalp, heavy regulation, and then the allelopathic effect in the spring. No need to throw Tenacity on top of the pile.


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## Humbert810 (8 mo ago)

Redtwin said:


> I don't think most replied since Tenacity is usually not in our arsenal. I have heard of some people applying it when dormant but then you never hear back from them which is bad sign. PGR overseeds are tough enough on bermuda with the late season scalp, heavy regulation, and then the allelopathic effect in the spring. No need to throw Tenacity on top of the pile.


There you go with that PGR PRG mix-up again!


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Humbert810 said:


> There you go with that PGR PRG mix-up again!


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

I'm 13 days post seeding. I did the first cut today at 3/4" and applied starter fert. I put down the remaining seed I had leftover.


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## ltsibley (Jul 30, 2019)

I'm getting ready to throw some seed down this weekend. I plan on verticutting and scalping...but I was curious if anyone had ever tried burning the Bermuda before overseeding? Would that work and/or do any damage to the Bermuda come spring?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

@ltsibley I know there are several on here who do it in the spring but have never heard of doing it into the fall for an overseed.

Check out the Scalp or Burn thread from late last winter.


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## ltsibley (Jul 30, 2019)

@Redtwin yes I've seen several burn in spring and that's what made me think about doing it in fall...but obviously don't want to do it if it would cause any damage. I just hate all the clippings I have to discard of with the verticut and scalp.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

ltsibley said:


> @Redtwin yes I've seen several burn in spring and that's what made me think about doing it in fall...but obviously don't want to do it if it would cause any damage. I just hate all the clippings I have to discard of with the verticut and scalp.


I’ve read a few articles about golf courses that will spray Diquat on Bermuda to brown it out and dry it up in order to have less clipping volume when scalping for overseed. I know what you mean though I filled up 17 40 gallon bags off of 4500 sq ft getting ready for my overseed.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Went ahead and took the plunge today. Over seeded my Bermuda. Used about 1.5oz/1k of Tnex a couple days ago. Scalped today to about 5/8"(lowest I could go before hitting sand) and bagged. Then threw the PRG down at a pretty moderately heavy rate. ~15-20lbs/1k. I did it two ways. Just put down seed originally. Then with the other half, I spread peat moss and starter fert on top of the seed and then once that was good and raked, I threw down the second half of the seed and raked that as well. I still have maybe 4lbs give or take left over. Today was the hottest in a while (92+) temps tomorrow are closer to 82 so I picked the perfect day to start.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@DFW245 sounds like a good start for your prg. That seed rate should make for some great looking and performing "winter" grass. Once each stem starts to tiller (add more blades) it'll be fantastic.

Here in Phx we're forecast to see 97° today and tomorrow, then 89° Saturday followed by a storm system bringing rain and cooler temps. Shooting to have my prg going down Sunday.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> @DFW245 sounds like a good start for your prg. That seed rate should make for some great looking and performing "winter" grass. Once each stem starts to tiller (add more blades) it'll be fantastic.
> 
> Here in Phx we're forecast to see 97° today and tomorrow, then 89° Saturday followed by a storm system bringing rain and cooler temps. Shooting to have my prg going down Sunday.


How long does it take to tiller? Is it triggered at a certain temperature or is it just a product of maturation?


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> How long does it take to tiller? Is it triggered at a certain temperature or is it just a product of maturation?


I believe it's just a product of maturation. Plus I'll be throwing down PGR on top of it once it's established and I've mowed a handful of times. That'll help it thicken up and tiller out even more


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

Question about over-seeding after you have over seeded with PRG. So it looks like my PRG came in a little thin this time and I have a few bare spots as well. I’ll need to over-seed those areas again. Maybe too many beers while spreading the seed out ? lol 

anyway, do you guys just continue to cut the whole yard and go over areas that you added more seed that are thin? Or do you pause the mowing and wait for those areas to germinate ? Reason why I’m asking is because it looks like I’m due to mow here pretty soon as the PRG that has germinated is around 1.5-2 inches.

Thanks for any insight.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@Hapa512 ... I move a bit slower on adding seed to give the sprouted grass a chance to get a good hold and "stiffen" up some. If you keep the grass a little taller initially, it will sort of help to allow the newest seedlings more opportuniry to anchor in better before they reach your cutting height. Once you are seeing a better fill in, you should be able to drop the height w/o too much issue.


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

PhxHeat said:


> @Hapa512 ... I move a bit slower on adding seed to give the sprouted grass a chance to get a good hold and "stiffen" up some. If you keep the grass a little taller initially, it will sort of help to allow the newest seedlings more opportuniry to anchor in better before they reach your cutting height. Once you are seeing a better fill in, you should be able to drop the height w/o too much issue.


Thank you for the insight, I was thinking along the same lines as you mentioned, maybe I'll do a mild cut over the weekend then do a bit more over-seeding and leave it for a week or two..

I think I made some mistakes this year as far as temp timing as well as the quality of the seed, so I think that's probably why the grass is pretty thin and not thick like the previous overseeding's I've done with Champion GQ.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Almost 3 weeks after initial seeding.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

16 days in. 2nd application of seed hasn't germinated yet. I still need some filling in to happen.







Did a Welcome to Wrexham inspired cut today. It's so nice to mow when it's 72 and no humidity.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Double wides.


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

7 days from seed down with Futura 2000. Used to KBG germination, this is like instant gratification! Should be mowing next weekend!


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## Hapa512 (Mar 22, 2020)

First mow with a rotary mower at 1” 15th day post over-seeding. I’m not 100% happy but I still have time to fix the thin areas and add more seed. We got got cooler temps a little bit of rain on the way so that should help with better germination for the second roundcof

I made a few mistakes this season and it’s been a bit of a struggle.

















Scalped to low, seeded probably too early, used shitty seed. I was pretty hard up to do some PRG this season being the yard didn’t look like I wanted due to heat, drought,


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Did some front yard prep Thu and some more yesterday. Phoenix got some scattered storms that dumped hard in areas and then nice showers during the night.

Prg seed went down this morning. Now I watch the watering and wait for green.


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## rllynch1 (Oct 18, 2021)

Got my Champion GQ seed down late Friday night, 10/14. Scalped down to around 3/4” and verticut in a perpendicular pattern. Threw down some Scott’s starter fert as well. 

Some differences this year vs. last:

Got a cali trimmer, was able to scalp a little lower
Got a sprinkler system, no more dragging a hose around the yard multiple times a day
Got a Lesco spreader, the Scott’s I used last year sucked and had the issue where seed and fert got in the wheels
Got seed down about 2 weeks earlier
Put down all but about 4 lbs. of seed right away - last year I had to order more cause I was buying 20 lb bags. Saving the other seed for potential thin areas. Going for right at 10 lbs/k.

What do y’all use to fertilize through the winter? Last year I just threw down Milorganite a few times but I’ve been using Urea and Iron for my Bermuda - can I use that on the PRG as well?


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

rllynch1 said:


> What do y’all use to fertilize through the winter? Last year I just threw down Milorganite a few times but I’ve been using Urea and Iron for my Bermuda - can I use that on the PRG as well?


From what I understand, Milo is heat activated, so cooler temps it wouldn't as effective. Urea/Iron would be good, Ammonium Sulfate/Iron would be ideal. AS is better at colder temps.


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

DFW245 said:


> Went ahead and took the plunge today. Over seeded my Bermuda. Used about 1.5oz/1k of Tnex a couple days ago.


Is that a typo on the Tnex rate? I use 0.20 fl oz/M on my lawn, and even that usually seems to be too much.


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

Here's my Midpoint Ryegrass 6 days after seeding. I blew all the leaves off the yard yesterday, only to wake up and find that more had been blown onto the yard. Will the grass under the leaves survive until I start mowing a couple times a week?


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Deltahedge said:


> Is that a typo on the Tnex rate? I use 0.20 fl oz/M on my lawn, and even that usually seems to be too much.


Not a typo. The point was to practically stop growth altogether on the Bermuda to prevent it competing with the PRG. I also have common Bermuda so the going rate is .75oz/1k. I doubled it to make sure it wouldn't be an issue.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

No germination for me yet @ 5 days post seeding. Then again I guess I'm used to my Arden 15. I saw germination around 3-4 days. Patience is key I suppose


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

DFW245 said:


> Not a typo. The point was to practically stop growth altogether on the Bermuda to prevent it competing with the PRG. I also have common Bermuda so the going rate is .75oz/1k. I doubled it to make sure it wouldn't be an issue.


I might conduct a test plot to see how my grass reacts to that type of rate. I imagine if the heavy rate slows the Bermuda down for a long time, it would keep the Bermuda from competing with the Rye seedlings.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Yeah, pretty common practice when overseeing. Most put some PGR down on the Bermuda at a crazy rate just to ensure no competition. And since rye grows so fast by the time the GDDs stack up, the rye will be tall enough on it's own


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Strike that. I'm seeing seedlings this morning. All over actually. Well that definitely shot up overnight. 

5 days post seeding


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

Starting to see germination after round 2. I'm going to start PGR next week.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> I'm 13 days post seeding. I did the first cut today at 3/4" and applied starter fert. I put down the remaining seed I had leftover.
> View attachment 1365


Did you reel mow? It didn't yank any seedlings out did it? I'm wondering how soon I should mow after emergence.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

I did. Used my Cal Trimmer since it's my lightest mower. I waited until day 13 after my initial seeding for the first cut. I have been cutting every three days since and haven't noticed any sprouts being pulled. I've been cutting at 3/4".


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> I did. Used my Cal Trimmer since it's my lightest mower. I waited until day 13 after my initial seeding for the first cut. I have been cutting every three days since and haven't noticed any sprouts being pulled. I've been cutting at 3/4".


I have the Cal trimmer also. 'Lightest' being relative I'm sure lol with the front roller I'm assuming that's the 5th notch? Also, how soon after did you seed again for bare/thin spots? I've got about a solid 5lbs or so left and I seeded very heavy. Luckily no washout, but temps here are supposed to hit mid 40s-low30s and I'm not sure how tough the lil seedlings are gonna be. May have to buy another bag 🫤


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

After my first mow 13 days in I threw out the rest of my seed.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> After my first mow 13 days in I threw out the rest of my seed.
> View attachment 1995


Alright I'll see how she looks 13 days in. 

Interesting. I made a lil chart of sorts similar to that but with the range values instead of solid numbers. Since manual says anywhere from 1/8-3/16 difference I believe. Something like that. Is that with the Cal trimmer roller? Or a ReelRollers roller?


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> Alright I'll see how she looks 13 days in.
> 
> Interesting. I made a lil chart of sorts similar to that but with the range values instead of solid numbers. Since manual says anywhere from 1/8-3/16 difference I believe. Something like that. Is that with the Cal trimmer roller? Or a ReelRollers roller?


Yes, CT smooth roller.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> Yes, CT smooth roller.


Oof. Hopefully smooth and grooved aren't differed in dimensions. Mine is grooved


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

As per my post above, I seeded my prg on Sunday. 3 days in and I did some up close ground level inspecting. I was able to find some tiny red tips poking out here and there, so germination has started. Should be tons more tomorrow.

Afternoon temps are a bit warm the next few days, but the highs are short lived and drop off quick as the sun drops. Forecast for Phoenix next week starting on Sunday is currently showing in the upper 70's. Transition from Summer to our other season, "Not Summer" is almost here  .


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## Deltahedge (Apr 1, 2020)

TigerKnight said:


> How low have you all mowed PRG? I am thinking of modifying part of my lawn into a putting green. My initial thought is to seed with PRG and then spray and sprig with TifEagle in the Spring. I would love to mow at around 1/8 in.


I have read that golf courses overseed their greens with Poa Triv, although I haven't found anywhere that sells Poa Triv seed in my area. It must just be golf course sources that carry it.


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## Slim 1938 (Aug 24, 2019)

Kinda wild but a lot of the annual from last year has came back up now that temps have dropped. I didn’t plan on overseeding this year but I may have to now.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

The sprinklers just ran .... I seeded this past SUN at
approx 11am, so 4 days ago. Here comes the fun.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Mine is starting to darken up.


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## Hotcarl (Sep 20, 2021)

When do you guys normally start to taper off the daily waterings?


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Once you have solid germination across the lawn. You can see that you don’t have a lot of brand spanking new germination at that point. Not the little red stems, actual blades. At least that’s when I’ve done it.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Was away for the past few days ... seeded Sunday morning last week, so 8 days this morning. Pretty happy with the progress. There are some areas I need to tweak sprinklers, but overall it's off to a good start.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@Hotcarl ... what @Dono said. With green blades you can cut back. I'll adjust mine as needed depending on soil wetness. I'll switch over to every other day, then every third and then every 5 or so depending on how damp/wet the soil is staying.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

26 days in and I put down some PGR, FE, urea and soluable 20-20-20. What do you all do as far as fertilizing and PGR after the starter fert?


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@Reel_Alabama I don't have any PGR experience and I use very basic big box store granual fert. After initial seeding and sprouting, my next fert tends to be a balanced 10-10-10 or 16-16-16 type fert. Looking to promote all around feeding. Then I'll switch to a "#, 0, # " type fert. No need to "push" rye root growth with "P" beyond an early point. But some "N" and a little "K" seems to keep rye happy. I have no idea if true or not, but I've read a little iron will help rye stay/keep/be more green if applied before 1st frost hits compared to after. Doesn't seem to take much iron to make rye darker, but a bunch of iron doesn't make it "extra" dark. I do smaller "spoon feeding" amounts on a loose 2 to 3 week schedule. Seems to do fine for me that way.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Started a journal of my progress, but figured I'd drop a pic here. Seeded on Oct 12. Seems to be doing great so far. Have quite a few spaces I'd like to reseed, I want it dense. That and don't mow this stuff when it's damp lol otherwise I think it looks good. 

October 23(11 days post overseed)


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## Thisguy (Apr 5, 2017)

DFW245 said:


> Started a journal of my progress, but figured I'd drop a pic here. Seeded on Oct 12. Seems to be doing great so far. Have quite a few spaces I'd like to reseed, I want it dense. That and don't mow this stuff when it's damp lol otherwise I think it looks good.
> 
> October 23(11 days post overseed)
> View attachment 2470


Did you mow it or comb it? Lol


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@DFW245 that is going to be pure velvet/velour
excellence when it tillers 3 or 4 blades per stem.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Thisguy said:


> Did you mow it or comb it? Lol


Definitely mowed. Lol It was kind of a pain because of the way my lawn is constructed, but I made it work.



PhxHeat said:


> @DFW245 that is going to be pure velvet/velour
> excellence when it tillers 3 or 4 blades per stem.


That's exactly what I'm waiting on. I honestly thought it'd be a bit more sturdy and have some spring in it. But this actually looks better than I anticipated this early. Since the rain is gone, I think I'll start my reseeding today


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

DFW245 said:


> I honestly thought it'd be a bit more sturdy and have some spring in it.


The blades will get more sturdy with maturity. Young rye is flimsy and wispy. It'll "firm" up and gets even better when it shoots out more blades. Rye becomes some excellent "barefoot" grass once cut a few times ... imo even better around a 1/2" -5/8". I really like taking it lower, but then I feel it needs to be cut more to look it's best.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> The blades will get more sturdy with maturity. Young rye is flimsy and wispy. It'll "firm" up and gets even better when it shoots out more blades. Rye becomes some excellent "barefoot" grass once cut a few times ... imo even better around a 1/2" -5/8". I really like taking it lower, but then I feel it needs to be cut more to look it's best.


About to cut it now actually. Ill be taking it down gradually. Had it at 1.25 and will take it down over the next mow or so. Also will be reseeding today.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Looks like reseeding 3 days ago might've been a bad idea smh. Monsoons today. At about 2.5" of rain and counting. Isn't letting up either. I'll be ordering more seed


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@DFW245 unless you are seeing large scale puddling or wash out, the already sprouted grass should do a pretty good job of helping hold seed in place.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

I feel like I got a good response from the Urea and iron.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> @DFW245 unless you are seeing large scale puddling or wash out, the already sprouted grass should do a pretty good job of helping hold seed in place.


Well it's still raining. Hasn't let up at all, and I stopped checking at a little over 3". Also my lawn is on a decent slope and the swale drains right at the edge of my lawn which is where a ton of bare spots were. So, if nothing else....I'd have to reseed the edges.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Got one checking to see if it was real today.


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## abovepargolfer (Jun 17, 2020)

What setting on a broadcast spreader should be used to put down the seed?


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

abovepargolfer said:


> What setting on a broadcast spreader should be used to put down the seed?


If your seed bag doesn’t have a rate for your broadcaster, you can typically find a conversion table online. 
If there’s no rate at all, you weigh out your seed needed per 1k^ft. and apply it to your lawn. So if you have 3lbs. Per thousand you want to apply, and you have 3k sq ft. you put in 9 lbs. into your spreader. Slowly open your spreader until you get decent broadcast. Then make even passes in different directions until you are out of seed. That’s what I would do anyway. Just make sure you adjust your opening up, not down.


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## cokenner (Apr 27, 2021)

Single, double stripes with sprinkles of dog damage (2 70lb dogs)


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

Double, doubles. I'm really enjoying mowing when it's 70 degrees. This stuff stripes like a dream. I wish it recovered from dog urine but hell, I'll take it.


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## rllynch1 (Oct 18, 2021)

Already much better results this year than I got last year. First cut yesterday. I haven’t fed it anything yet but I’m gonna spray some iron and nitrogen on soon


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Day 23. h.o.c. 1/2" .
It has started to tiller. I have some reserve seed for
the thin areas like the outer edges. It should do
better going forward after some sprinkler changes.
I'm pretty happy with it so far.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Anybody know when it’s safe to spray 2-4D on overseeded rye? Got a few broadleafs coming up and kinda hard to pick them without pulling out a lot of rye with them.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Not sure if mine has started to tiller yet or not. But all I've done is apply a little iron on Halloween. I've reseeded twice already. Almost 30 days after first seeding. Cut day is 11/13 since I reseeded on halloween


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@DFW245 there is definitely PRG tillering in that pic. When you see multiple blades coming from the original stem/shoot, each new tiller becomes another blade.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> @DFW245 there is definitely PRG tillering in that pic. When you see multiple blades coming from the original stem/shoot, each new tiller becomes another blade.


Ha!! Yeah didn't look close enough at my own pic. PGR going down after next mow


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Checkerboards.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Checkerboards.
> View attachment 3605


It was a chilly day in N. AL to get a double cut in! Looks great! I got a quickie in before the games started.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)




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## ltsibley (Jul 30, 2019)

HOC @ 5/8"


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Checkerboards.
> View attachment 3605


This is what I want mine to look like. Practically looks like Bermuda....or a tennis court lol


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

DFW245 said:


> This is what I want mine to look like. Practically looks like Bermuda....or a tennis court lol


Yours looks thick enough just get it down short, I’m maintaining mine at 3/4”.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

ltsibley said:


> HOC @ 5/8"
> View attachment 3617


Man I’m jealous of how flat that is.


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## TigerKnight (Apr 13, 2019)

My first year "keeping" the bermuda green! We have a newborn (3 weeks old), so I opted to paint the front. I don't think it turned out too bad - a bit heavy in some spots, but I have some left over I could feather it out a bit.

I used Endurant Fairway at 8 oz / gallon / K.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Aggravating not to be able to get out n mow with the Cali Trimmer. Those monsoons we had coupled with the winter chill has my clay soil really really damp/wet. And to have rains coming back again Monday, I've only got a few days window to try n cut it down to .50"-.62". Not sure if it'll be feasible without leaving massive ruts in the yard and mashing down grass. Any options here? Our temps have been stagnant in the low 50s high 40s


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Walk around and check the mush factor. Maybe find a less obvious area to do a sample test pass. Not cutting, just a drive over to see. Then it's up to you, deal with possible ruts, or deal with crazy tall rye.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> Walk around and check the mush factor. Maybe find a less obvious area to do a sample test pass. Not cutting, just a drive over to see. Then it's up to you, deal with possible ruts, or deal with crazy tall rye.


Ruts it is....commencing mowing session _fingers crossed_


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## wiseowl (May 25, 2020)

This thread makes me sad that I didn't overseed this year. Looks like it's always going to be a year of overseed from here on out. Nice looking lawns everyone.


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## bretben55 (Apr 24, 2017)

50lb of Lesco PRG put down September 24th. Been cutting with rotary, first cut with reel. Went a little short at 5/8".


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

This is about a week ago. Got a cut in and edge. Ground was finally starting to dry up.....then more rains. If the rains continue through winter? I don't think I'll be Overseeding anymore. It's too hard to mow soggy lawns that take 2 weeks to dry out. With a heavy reel mower, that leaves ruts everywhere. Otherwise, I cut it a tad low hence the lighter shade of green.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

My yard vs Nationals Park. I'm loving this stuff.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

@Reel_Alabama the prg is looking great. What is your h.o.c.? I love mine too. It's so nice to do yardwork in the 60's and 70's vs our summer temps here in the desert.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

PhxHeat said:


> @Reel_Alabama the prg is looking great. What is your h.o.c.? I love mine too. It's so nice to do yardwork in the 60's and 70's vs our summer temps here in the desert.


Thank you. I keep it at 1".


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## smockle (7 mo ago)

Planning ahead for spring: I’ve got 3000 sq. ft. of Bermudagrass overseeded with Perennial Ryegrass in Zone 8A. MSM Turf is around $25 on Amazon and DoMyOwn, but I’m wary of using it to remove the PRG because I have nearby trees and ornamental shrubs. Is there another option at the same price point?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I believe you can use Certainty (sulfosulfuron) to spray out PRG in the spring. It's slower to work but is much safer for trees and shrubs.


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## smockle (7 mo ago)

Redtwin said:


> I believe you can use Certainty (sulfosulfuron) to spray out PRG in the spring. It's slower to work but is much safer for trees and shrubs.


Thanks! DoMyOwn sells 1.25 oz of Certainty for $120. Do you know where I could purchase a smaller quantity? If I did the math right, 1.25 oz applied at the label rate would cover 10–15 years of applications on a 3000 sq. ft. yard.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

You should be able to get a split in the marketplace section. DM @confused_boner, he usually has some available.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Anyone know why I'm seeing this stark difference in color? I'm seeing very dark green like I want it, and areas of a much limer green/yellowish. Fertilize using AS every other week at .25lbsN/1k. Have sprayed iron twice and PGR once since Halloween.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

pound it with some N and a slight growth regulator. Propiconazole would be great for fungus and growth.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

dfw I see some algae in your photos, let it dry out a bit.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

ABC123 said:


> dfw I see some algae in your photos, let it dry out a bit.


You see algae? Care to point it out? It's not even close to being waterlogged. I just recently started watering again at 2min 4x a day.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Maybe your spray pattern isn’t as consistent as you are hoping it is. You may also try increasing your hoc and see if it evens out. You’ll have the grass for a few more months so you have some time to try and establish what may be causing it. 
Sometimes I’ve noticed prg doesn’t green up at the same rate when it’s younger, and as it matures it evens out.


DFW245 said:


> Anyone know why I'm seeing this stark difference in color? I'm seeing very dark green like I want it, and areas of a much limer green/yellowish. Fertilize using AS every other week at .25lbsN/1k. Have sprayed iron twice and PGR once since Halloween.
> View attachment 4177
> 
> View attachment 4176


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Dono1183 said:


> Maybe your spray pattern isn’t as consistent as you are hoping it is. You may also try increasing your hoc and see if it evens out. You’ll have the grass for a few more months so you have some time to try and establish what may be causing it.
> Sometimes I’ve noticed prg doesn’t green up at the same rate when it’s younger, and as it matures it evens out.


Could have a point with the maturity. But as far as spray patterns, I'm using the teejet nozzle with a wide spray pattern. Only have 750sqft and spray in two directions lol also, I don't spray my fert. It's granular.


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## PhxHeat (Oct 18, 2019)

Reel_Alabama said:


> Thank you. I keep it at 1".


I would have guessed shorter. Looking good.


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## rllynch1 (Oct 18, 2021)

Fertilizer question - my high temps will be mid 40’s - 50’s the next 4 days and then they drop significantly around Christmas.

It feels like my PRG has become stagnant, so I’m considering spraying Urea and Iron Sulfate. Is it pointless with these temps, or can I still expect to see an effect?


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## Kdaves12 (Aug 10, 2020)




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## nATLzoysiaguy (7 mo ago)

Kdaves12 said:


> View attachment 4394
> 
> View attachment 4392
> 
> View attachment 4393


That Toro


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)




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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Reel_Alabama said:


> View attachment 4430
> View attachment 4431


Man that color is killer!


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Has anybody else's rye lost color after the bad cold snap last week? I feel like it should be greening back up now, worried that it has some bad damage from the cold.


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## Dono1183 (Oct 11, 2021)

Mine got dinged really hard. I put down some extra seed, but I think it’s gonna take a bit for it to come back like it was.


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

coreystooks said:


> Has anybody else's rye lost color after the bad cold snap last week? I feel like it should be greening back up now, worried that it has some bad damage from the cold.
> View attachment 4524


Yes. Mine was dinged pretty hard. This is my first time with PRG so we'll see what happens this week with some rain and temps in the 60's. I'm hoping it bounces back.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Going through the exact same thing. Mine was under regulation during the cold snap. So maybe it was a delayed reaction? Mine didn't start yellowing until the warmth came back


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> View attachment 4430
> View attachment 4431


Ok. Ok. How on EARTH did you get it so dark? Spoon-feeding? Iron? Mine gets a little dark but that looks dyed!!! Wow


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> Ok. Ok. How on EARTH did you get it so dark? Spoon-feeding? Iron? Mine gets a little dark but that looks dyed!!! Wow


Thanks. I'm under regulation too. I was spraying .25#/M of Urea every two weeks along with some Main Event @ 2oz/M. I was due for an application and my Chapin sprayer quit so I threw down some granular I had laying around. It got really dark a few days later.


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## DFW245 (Jul 23, 2021)

Reel_Alabama said:


> Thanks. I'm under regulation too. I was spraying .25#/M of Urea every two weeks along with some Main Event @ 2oz/M. I was due for an application and my Chapin sprayer quit so I threw down some granular I had laying around. It got really dark a few days later.


Ah, so you noticed the biggest difference after the granular app? Interesting. Looks I'm gonna start .25lb of N/Urea every two weeks. See what it gets me. The Tnex itself has caused a lot of darkening. But I'll try the urea spoon feeding


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## Reel_Alabama (Aug 22, 2021)

DFW245 said:


> Ah, so you noticed the biggest difference after the granular app? Interesting. Looks I'm gonna start .25lb of N/Urea every two weeks. See what it gets me. The Tnex itself has caused a lot of darkening. But I'll try the urea spoon feeding


I did, yes. I was pleasantly surprised.


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## rllynch1 (Oct 18, 2021)

I just have to laugh at myself - clearly I missed some spots when spraying.

That said, this is after 24 hours. The difference is pretty insane - sprayed Urea and Iron Sulfate.

Unfortunately I think I also may have scalped my lawn a bit back in November, hence the not great coverage.


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## franktiberi (7 mo ago)

rllynch1 said:


> I just have to laugh at myself - clearly I missed some spots when spraying.
> 
> That said, this is after 24 hours. The difference is pretty insane - sprayed Urea and Iron Sulfate.
> 
> Unfortunately I think I also may have scalped my lawn a bit back in November, hence the not great coverage.


Keep us updated. Hopefully it grows out of it.


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## coreystooks (Aug 6, 2019)

Here’s an update on mine, color is coming back. Mowed it and threw down 1lbs of N.


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