# HungrySoutherner TifGrand Lawn Journal 2021



## HungrySoutherner

I figure after being here for a while I should start a journal. After mistiming my pgr and leveling with sand my Bermuda final rebounded out this last week. I was keeping it at an inch with a rotary and decided to scalp it back to about .4" today. I got out the swardman and didn't check to see if the HOC was tightened or that the battery was charged so this is where it ended. A little nitrogen and some time will get it back. I actually am think of taking it down to as close to 1/4 of inch as possible looks like the 419 is fine and it will stress out the common Bermuda . I'm sure the neighbors were confused when I didn't finish mowing and it looks like it's been murdered


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## HungrySoutherner

Managed to get the swardman going again but looks like I've got a charger problem may be without a mower till I get something figured out. I hadn't intended on scalping to .25" but that's where it landed. Thinking of keeping it here for a while and slamming some PGR and stress out the common that was sodded into the 419 . You can really see the common scalping but the 419 handling the cut just fine. I followed up the scalp with 1lb / 1000sqft of GreenTRX . I've been spoon feeding synthetic since I did some leveling so due for some organic . After this greens back up I'll it hit with TNex


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## HungrySoutherner

Still mowing every other day at .25" , have been under PGR for almost 2 weeks getting the density back after a scalp. Stripes are starting to appear but lots of rain in the forecast so will be mowing around the weather. Going to be burying the back yard in sand next week to get it sand capped. Still need to figure out how to raise the water meter box to turf height after 3 summers of sand leveling its now very low.


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## HungrySoutherner

Finally working on the backyard. Going really heavy with the sand because the yard was graded wrong so water is headed back at the house. Going to take a while to grow out but plan to hammer it with RGS and fert.


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## HungrySoutherner

I'm working on removing seeded common or some sort of mutated common sod that was laid in my yard. Saturday I sprayed tenacity + simazine . Woke up this morning and I'm starting to see clear stress on the common in my tifway 419 . Im amazed to be able to clearly see how it's spread and how it was laid in the yard in 2016. Probably will lose 40% of my front yard but hoping there is enough season left to push the 419 into those areas and or plug 419 in. So far this looks like a viable strategy


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## Sbcgenii

Your yard looks super thick. Good luck beating the common.


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## HungrySoutherner

Another day and another common kill off update. The common is taking a beating and the runners weaved into the 419 are root pruning and coming up on their own. The common is really starting to bleach and become weak while the 419 is holding strong. This is pretty amazing to see to be able to selectively remove common Bermuda


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## Sbcgenii

So it is the tenacity and simazine that is selectively taking out the common? At what rate are you spraying it? Are you still at .250 HOC? Still using PGR?


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> So it is the tenacity and simazine that is selectively taking out the common? At what rate are you spraying it? Are you still at .250 HOC? Still using PGR?


I used 5 oz / A of Tenacity + 15 oz/ A of Simazine + NIS . I raised the HOC to .3" just to let a little more leaf tissue come out from the 419 and will probably move up to .35" - .4" in August to give the 419 a little more breathing room, but the low HOC is an additional stress on the common right now to help out the cocktail. I let my yard come out of regulation on the 14th of July and plan to just keep mowing everyday if its not raining to not stress out the 419 and help it spread. Thats my current plan now.


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## HungrySoutherner

Another update the bleaching is continuing. I think I'm going to run the dethatcher in the major areas to help drag up the bleached common stolons amongst the good 419 to add a new layer of stress. Getting close to the first week post application and the progress is good. Still haven't noticed any significant stress in the 419


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## HungrySoutherner

Ran the dethatcher yesterday to make room for the 419. The common is starting to get very crispy in some areas. I'm finding some areas that should be killed in the second spray next week and will dethatch again to remove more material. I've noticed a few areas where the common grew on top of the 419 and is very ugly so will thin those areas out as well


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## Movingshrub

That is amazing; Better living through chemistry.


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## HungrySoutherner

@Movingshrub going to look hideous when its all dead....60% 419 and 40% common so I'll push growth until dormancy


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## Movingshrub

HungrySoutherner said:


> @Movingshrub going to look hideous when its all dead....60% 419 and 40% common so I'll push growth until dormancy


Smoke it all, put down PRG for the winter, sprig Tifgrand/Tiftuf/Tahoma 31/Lat 36 spring of next year; All the cool kids are doing it these days.


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## HungrySoutherner

@Movingshrub peer pressure sucks....


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## HungrySoutherner

Daily update the common Bermuda continues to get very crispy . I'm seeing 419 mixed in some areas so I'll be pushing hard in August to grow it in before fall. I plan to reapply next Saturday simazine + tenacity to knock out what remains. Then 10 days later I'll verticut to get as much dead grass out and start pushing nitrogen and micros . Probably will raise the cutting height to .4" to give the 419 a little more breathing room. Cutting dead stolons with the reel is a little unnerving the crunchy sound they make


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## Sbcgenii

That is looking great. So the green spots inside of the dead spots is 419?


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> That is looking great. So the green spots inside of the dead spots is 419?


Yeah for the most part it's 419 in those areas. I think I've reached about the peak of what I got killed good and should be able to nail the rear next Saturday


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## HungrySoutherner

Another update . I think I'm reaching about the peak of what is going to be killed from the first application of tenacity + simazine. The 419 is looking good. Glad to see 419 in the middle of those patches of common Bermuda. I haven't seen any of the common that was killed showing any signs of trying to grow back foliage.


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## Sbcgenii

Looking great. I think you have a good shot at getting that to fill in by the end of the growing season.


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## HungrySoutherner

Daily Update. Still seeing more thinning of common bermuda and some die off. I can easily see the common that is not growing but not dead and areas that were missed. At day 11 I'm finally seeing a small patch of nimblewill that came in from my neighbors lawn bleached and killed off. Seeing more 419 coming up inside the common areas and coming to life.


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## cglarsen

Common is tough but you should be giving the hybrid an advantage to increase coverage with each application. As far as spring green up does your Tif come to life sooner than the common sections? That should also help it out compete.


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## HungrySoutherner

cglarsen said:


> Common is tough but you should be giving the hybrid an advantage to increase coverage with each application. As far as spring green up does your Tif come to life sooner than the common sections? That should also help it out compete.


This common was sodded in from some cheap farm in my area that started sod from seed like black jack or gold glove. The common greened up later than the 419 but the amount and structure never let the 419 take it over . This method will have it dead and gone without harming the 419 in another week or so . I expect it to be mostly filled in before dormancy


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## Gibby

Following...


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## sanders4617

Do you have up close pictures of the Common vs Tif419 before you sprayed? I'm curious if mine is mixed up. I've got areas that are darker and thicker than others, and it's slowly spread throughout the season to encompass more of my lawn. Curious if me cutting low has helped thicken it up in more areas, or do I have a common Bermuda fight on my hands.

I'll kill mine off in a heartbeat lol

Mine supposedly came from a sod farm in Cullman with Tifway II.. but they're not certified. So who knows


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## HungrySoutherner

sanders4617 said:


> Do you have up close pictures of the Common vs Tif419 before you sprayed? I'm curious if mine is mixed up. I've got areas that are darker and thicker than others, and it's slowly spread throughout the season to encompass more of my lawn. Curious if me cutting low has helped thicken it up in more areas, or do I have a common Bermuda fight on my hands.
> 
> I'll kill mine off in a heartbeat lol
> 
> Mine supposedly came from a sod farm in Cullman with Tifway II.. but they're not certified. So who knows


I'll see if I can find an area that I didn't get killed and you can see the leaf and color difference. I'm pretty sure in my case its not a blend of tiffway II and 419, I don't think tiffway II would have been hurt by this combo. In my case the 419 is finer texture and darker color. This common is much thicker leaf and lime colored. There is a farm towards the Shoals that is growing uncertified 419 and you can see in the field they have lots of common contamination in the 419 , the lime green stands out just like in my lawn so I'm starting to connect the dots. Right now even if I get this under control, my plan is to kill off the entire front and back yard next year and sprig Tiffgrand. I blame @Movingshrub for being a bad influence.


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## sanders4617

I mentioned the Tifway II as in who knows if I have true Tif2 or a mix of that and common. Plus mine was sodded in 2013, but never taken care of. It's now 6 years later and I've got it haha.

Yeah looking forward to seeing pictures of the 2. I'll take pictures of what I see in my lawn and PM to you as well, see if that looks familiar.


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## HungrySoutherner

sanders4617 said:


> I mentioned the Tifway II as in who knows if I have true Tif2 or a mix of that and common. Plus mine was sodded in 2013, but never taken care of. It's now 6 years later and I've got it haha.
> 
> Yeah looking forward to seeing pictures of the 2. I'll take pictures of what I see in my lawn and PM to you as well, see if that looks familiar.


Sounds good. I've enjoyed your youtube videos seeing your grow in. I get down that way a lot my family all lives in Birmingham and Montgomery.


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## sanders4617

Thanks man. You loving the Swardman? I want one really bad (the electric version)


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## HungrySoutherner

sanders4617 said:


> Thanks man. You loving the Swardman? I want one really bad (the electric version)


Yeah I really like the electra. Very versatile and for my small lawn it works great. Very convenient and great cut quality.


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## HungrySoutherner

I didn't take pictures this morning not much to see. I reached peak kill on Tuesday. This morning I'm noticing some signs of life in areas of the common trying to come back from the dead. I've been mowing every other day to try and keep stress on it but will probably let it grow for a few days before I reapply on Saturday to try and get as much exposure to the common as possible. I'm also going to increase the rate of tenacity and simazine with this application so I expect to see some stress on the Tiffway 419 this go round. I'm hoping this application will smoke off more common and I will try again next spring if I don't make the transition to tiffgrand.


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## HungrySoutherner

I reached peak kill around day 11 . I'm surprised at the amount of 419 inside the common. I reapplied tenacity and simazine today. The rate was 6ml of tenacity to 16ml of simazine per k. I made sure to paint my lawn blue to impress the neighbors


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## Gibby

#superjuice?

How much water did you use?


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## HungrySoutherner

Gibby said:


> #superjuice?
> 
> How much water did you use?


I bag of super juice in 16oz of water , sprayed with a super soaker.


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## HungrySoutherner

Haven't posted about my backyard in a while . I've got about 70% grown back in and only the areas with 3-6" of sand are lagging. I'm kind of treating it like a sprigging project and keeping these areas moist and I'm seeing runners really starting to fill in.


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## HungrySoutherner

The blue dye is finally wearing off after few days. The dead common really soaked it up. It will be interesting to see if this second app gives me a complete kill or if it all comes back to life.


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## HungrySoutherner

Latest update. The common is bleaching extremely fast this go round , could be because I used a higher rate of mixture or because it was already weak. Going to give it a mow today at .3" and continue at that HOC to keep stressing it. I'm seeing more 419 in the worse common areas so I'm holding out hope to be able to push it to grow in. I plan to verticut at day 14 and try and remove as much dead common as possible.


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## HungrySoutherner

It's amazing how fast the common turns white compared to weeds. This go round I'm seeing a little bronzing on the 419 , could be due to higher rate tenacity or just the cumulative effects of 2 applications. Still seeing more bleaching and the stolons and rhizomes are very brittle and white . My guess 3 applications of this process would knock 90% of this out but I don't feel like I've got enough growing days left to push my luck.


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## HungrySoutherner

It's been nearly 7 days since my last tenacity + simazine. The common is really taking a beating but the 419 got dinged this go round it's definitely yellowed but still hanging in, I'm hoping the 419 will grow out of it over the next few days. We had a downpour yesterday and all of the dead grass is starting to schlep off and left clumpy waves in the yard. I raked it good to try and get it up and in the process the dead common was coming loose. I will probably run the dethatcher today and lightly rake out more dead stuff and verticut next weekend. When I turn the corner next weekend I'll be in push mode till mid September to get the 419 as healthy as possible before fall.


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## Sbcgenii

Fingers crossed for you. Impatiently waiting to see how fast your lawn recovers.


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> Fingers crossed for you. Impatiently waiting to see how fast your lawn recovers.


Me to. I'm looking forward to pounding this section of the yard with fert, RGS, sweat and blood till fall shows up. I'm holding the option to go nuclear and kill it all off in August and go PRG till next year and sprig Tifgrand if I see the common coming back.


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## HungrySoutherner

I'm documenting the good and bad of this process came home from work and the 419 is taking a beating . Im hoping it will push out over the next week. I've been mowing every other day to stress the common out but may have to hit the breaks to give the 419 some relief and see if it will push through it . I did not see a yellowing response after the first app in the 419 so I increased the rate. I'm learning the hard way that was a bad idea


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## HungrySoutherner

Morning update on my current situation. Fingers are still crossed the 419 will make it out. Going to carefully hit the 419 areas with some rgs this afternoon to give them a little help but avoid the major common areas. According to the paper from syngenta moderate bleaching is possible on hybrid with this combo from 7-10 days and then it should grow out . Patience isn't in my wheel house. Current plan is to overseed with PRG in October to protect the bare turf this winter . It always looks better in the morning


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## HungrySoutherner

It just looks bad bad bad all around . I'm going to lay off mowing for the next week and see what happens. The 419 is very yellow but hasn't bleached the way the common has, but it's dropping leaves. It's kind of a train wreck . I left the front slope of my yard alone because I have erosion problems and didn't want to fight that battle so you can see in the pics the many colors of my lawn


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## HungrySoutherner

Beat the crap out of the lawn this weekend. There was so much dead stuff it was smothering new growth of 419 underneath so I pulled the trigger and dethatched and verticut to get as much out. Before I could finish getting it cleaned up the sky fell out so created some nice wavy clumps of dead grass to deal with. Plan to give it a mow tomorrow at .35" and then raise the hoc to .45" after


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## HungrySoutherner

Realized today that PRG is not an option because of all the simazine. Didn't even think about that .... it's going to be a long rough winter


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## JTCJC

Oh man, that stinks! I was looking forward to seeing it all come together. Can you still push a lot in N and water and see how far the 419 will spread?


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## Sbcgenii

Looks like the 419 is still hanging in there. Bermuda is so tuff it will be interesting to see how much it can still improve.


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## cglarsen

You definitely kicked its arse. You could always aerate the crap out of it and throw down some PGR for some cover. Between that and some dye it would look ok over the winter. Maybe you will have a full rennovation in the spring - maybe not. You still have hot weather coming. Fingers crossed.


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## HungrySoutherner

Things are looking up. I scalped down to .25" yesterday just trying to remove as much dead material as possible. Not ideal for this time of year but needed to be done. I'm seeing lots of green 419 so I dodged the bullet. I expect it to green up but be thin going into winter. I'm still seeing areas of common trying to come back but should be much easier to address now that the bulk is dead. Even though it looks terrible so far I'd consider it a success. I'd do something's differently in the future. After the first blanket spray I could clearly see where the common was because it lit up. On my second application I should have just focused on those areas and the margin just around it instead of blanket. My guess is 3 applications and low mowing would eradicate it but a third application isn't in the cards for this year. I expect the pictures to start getting better going into the weekend and I'm planning to hammer it with all the fert and rgs I've got


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## HungrySoutherner

JTCJC said:


> Oh man, that stinks! I was looking forward to seeing it all come together. Can you still push a lot in N and water and see how far the 419 will spread?


It's coming together, things just needed time to turn the corner. Lots of healthy 419 underneath the die off. Heavy fert and RGS are starting Saturday. It will be thin going into the winter but its going to make it.


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## HungrySoutherner

@Sbcgenii its going to improve. Just very butt puckering the last week watching everything get rough looking. @cglarsen I had planned to overseed PRG anyway and renovate in the spring but simazine is a preM and the overseed period is like 4 months from application. I'm talking to Syngenta today to see what they say about PRG being viable in 8 weeks. Either way its going to workout. Like @Greendoc told me you've got to make it ugly some times. I've learned a lot from this so when I renovate to Tiffgrand I will keep this experiment in my back pocket if I'm fighting common bermuda again.


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## cglarsen

You're blazing trails for us - appreciate the work and sharing! Keep us updated on what they say on the simazine. I use that too.


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## HungrySoutherner

cglarsen said:


> You're blazing trails for us - appreciate the work and sharing! Keep us updated on what they say on the simazine. I use that too.


They suggested activated charcoal and flushing as much water as possible if I was going to attempt PRG first of October . I put out the max rate over 2 applications so probably not going to be an option. They did clear up why the 419 got dinged, it wasn't the tenacity it was the simazine building up . Learned why they say not to apply simazine to Bermuda unless dormant


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## cglarsen

HungrySoutherner said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> You're blazing trails for us - appreciate the work and sharing! Keep us updated on what they say on the simazine. I use that too.
> 
> 
> 
> They suggested activated charcoal and flushing as much water as possible if I was going to attempt PRG first of October . I put out the max rate over 2 applications so probably not going to be an option. They did clear up why the 419 got dinged, it wasn't the tenacity it was the simazine building up . Learned why they say not to apply simazine to Bermuda unless dormant
Click to expand...

What's the reason? Simazine has some post emerg effects on Bermuda like it does Poa and some other weeds?

Good news is you won't have a damn winter weed in sight this year.


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## HungrySoutherner

Finally a positive update. The entire yard has a nice green haze from the 419 breaking back through. It looks like a spring green up. I'm noticing a good bit of common returning as well, some areas got a more complete kill than others but a return no less. At this point in the game a third application would probably scorch the common, but the 419 couldn't handle that given the method of blanket application I did. So what do I think about using Tenacity + Simazine to control common bermuda inside Tifway 419 ? I think if I had small isolated areas then this is a great technique because I could do isolated applications in those areas and the 419 will come back. I would adjust my technique to run the lowest rates possible over 2-3 applications in those areas. Considering I was tackling so much common, using round up and plugging or sprigging into those areas would have been more effective and the timeline to grow in would have been the same. I may adjust my opinion in the coming weeks as I watch the grow in and see how much common comes back, and the amount of 419 that was inside those common areas. Plan to start hammering it hard this weekend and into middle of September.


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## HungrySoutherner

Just a daily update. Starting to see the fuzzzzz. I'm definitely seeing 419 in the common areas, so fingers crossed it will grow faster than any of the common coming back. Some areas its hard to tell if what is coming back is common or 419 because its dinged so bad. Also the backyard is about 85% filled , I sprayed PGR on the backyard last night because its getting way to thick with all the fertilizer I've been throwing down. I'm not sure which my wife is more mad about the front yard or the backyard at this point. Going to throw down some soluble trip 20 on the front and every week from here on out starting today.


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## HungrySoutherner

Saturday update. The 419 is making a strong comeback I sprayed RGS and .25lbs per/M of Trip 20 to kick it moving along. I'm seeing some cool post emergent action from the Tenacity and Simazine on the common that is trying to push new growth from rhizomes, they are turning bright white and dying off so now I'm much more hopeful seeing that the 419 has a much better shot at pushing in. I'm raising the HOC to .45 and will probably step it up to .5 going into the winter . Push push push


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## Sbcgenii

Nice progress! Back is looking good too.


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> Nice progress! Back is looking good too.


Yeah back is almost full recovered. Front is taking off once again as well . Still plenty of time left to grow it in before fall temps set in


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## AZChemist

Glad it is making a comeback!


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## cglarsen

> I'm not sure which my wife is more mad about the front yard or the backyard at this point.


This made me and the wife LoL - we are in the same situation. But things are looking better brother.


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## HungrySoutherner

Another great update. Gave the lawn a haircut and it's looking so much better and really bouncing back. It will be interesting to see how much control I got on the common. I can see some areas coming back and large areas where the 419 is taking over . It's getting exciting again


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## Sbcgenii

&#128558;


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## HungrySoutherner

Continuing to bounce back. Going to be mowing every other day till it fills back in. But it's back from the brink and really starting to look good again. I can see the common that survived but it's significantly less and 419 is really pushing in the thin areas. I think my backyard and front yard are in a race to see who can fill in first . I think I'll be back under PGR next weekend


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> 😮


Yep its coming back strong. This was a great learning experience. I think I've got a good idea of what to expect and how to tailor this protocol to get even better results.


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## Redtwin

I'm going to remember this journal for future reference.

Starting to look good again! Has your wife let you out of the doghouse yet?


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## HungrySoutherner

Redtwin said:


> I'm going to remember this journal for future reference.
> 
> Starting to look good again! Has your wife let you out of the doghouse yet?


Yeah I'm on out of the doghouse but still on a short leash. I keep telling her its just grass, that we can always renovate to a better grass. I just needed to find a way to control the common because if I sprig to Tifgrand next year I know it will come back and will need something other than round up to deal with it.


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## HungrySoutherner

Daily update just to follow the green up. With the amount of verticutting and dethatching I did I think it's going to come in even thicker than before. I'll have some new low spots to deal with next season from removing so much material but no more sand this year .


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## Romangorilla

Great stuff @HungrySoutherner ! Quick question for you: I have some common popping up in my P77 at the moment. This sorcery seemed to do the trick in terms of getting rid of the common out of your Tifway, but would this work just as well at getting common out of P77? P77 is a seeded variety much like common, where as Tifway is sodded. I'm just curious if that makes any difference?


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## HungrySoutherner

Romangorilla said:


> Great stuff @HungrySoutherner ! Quick question for you: I have some common popping up in my P77 at the moment. This sorcery seemed to do the trick in terms of getting rid of the common out of your Tifway, but would this work just as well at getting common out of P77? P77 is a seeded variety much like common, where as Tifway is sodded. I'm just curious if that makes any difference?


Yeah you don't want to do this to P77 its considered an improved common variety but different than hybrid different chromosomes genetically speaking. It will smoke your entire lawn. You round up is really our only option, spray the area, create a margin around it and grow it back in. Its kind of like how surgeons go after tumors. Good luck. This process is a multi year deal because it will comeback but there will be way more 419 and less common.


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## Romangorilla

That's kinda of what I thought.
Thanks for the info!


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## HungrySoutherner

Still coming back. Still seeing common emerging and turning white. It's interesting to see common that escaped death. I'm kind of wondering if I had scalped and verticut the first application if I'd pushed more stress on it and gotten more kill. That will be another technique to test next year. The common that is trying to emerge from rhizomes just vaporizes when it pushes up .


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## HungrySoutherner

Daily greenup check. Things are still progressing. Gave it a mow yesterday at .35"


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## Sbcgenii

Congratulations on dividing by zero you win the lawn internet.


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> Congratulations on dividing by zero you win the lawn internet.


It's really bounced back. I think I've figured out how to tweak the strategy to get a better kill without stressing the hybrid so much next time


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## HungrySoutherner

Sunday update. Coming back strong. Apparent that there is a lot of common hanging around. Gave the yard another spoon feed of fert on Friday along with some RGS and Microgreene . I'm convinced looking at the common that is hanging around is either black jack or gold glove Bermuda the sod farm used . Some of the common was hit hard but one variety is hanging on


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## HungrySoutherner

Another daily update. Will give the front a mow. Backyard is almost fully filled in so my wife and dogs will be happy about that. I'm still pondering the challenge of removing common or seeded Bermuda out of hybrid. Also if you've ever wondered what bronzing looks like from applying PGR you can really see it in the photo of my backyard. I wanted the rest of the yard to slow down and thicken up, but didn't want to hit the areas I'm still growing in. You can really see the color difference between those areas, I ran a low rate of PGR but since it was the first app since early June the grass got unhappy about it.


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## Sbcgenii

First the front looks awesome. Second what is in the back 419 or common? What rate did you apply the PGR and what brand?


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> First the front looks awesome. Second what is in the back 419 or common? What rate did you apply the PGR and what brand?


The back is Tifway 419 and the same patched common sod the builder used. I haven't been able to reel mow it because of all the sand in the back since June. Everytime I look at the back I really want to attack it with the reel mower but just don't want to chew up a reel this late in the season, and don't want to stress it further. Dealing with cheap sod mixed into hybrid is a super pain, I'm doing my best to try and plan a renovation strategy for next year, but the wife isn't thrilled about spending an entire summer without a backyard again. My plans are to go to Tifgrand next year...as long as the wife doesn't kill me and do some regrading in the process. I ran .25 oz /M of Tnex on the back and avoided the areas that need to fill in. I haven't had success using tnex on areas trying to fill, to me I'd rather have long runners mowing in those areas, then periodically I clip the long stolons and usually that causes those stolons to create new bunched plants of bermuda and get my density and more growth.


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## HungrySoutherner

Gave the yard a mow and getting enough density that the stripes are starting to come back


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## Gibby

TifGrand?


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## HungrySoutherner

Gibby said:


> TifGrand?


That's right @Gibby I want that semi-dwarf, dark green , shade tolerant goodness that is TifGrand. I'll let you be the king of Tahoma-31 for now.


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## cglarsen

HungrySoutherner said:


> Sbcgenii said:
> 
> 
> 
> First the front looks awesome. Second what is in the back 419 or common? What rate did you apply the PGR and what brand?
> 
> 
> 
> The back is Tifway 419 and the same patched common sod the builder used. I haven't been able to reel mow it because of all the sand in the back since June. Everytime I look at the back I really want to attack it with the reel mower but just don't want to chew up a reel this late in the season, and don't want to stress it further. Dealing with cheap sod mixed into hybrid is a super pain, I'm doing my best to try and plan a renovation strategy for next year, but the wife isn't thrilled about spending an entire summer without a backyard again. My plans are to go to Tifgrand next year...as long as the wife doesn't kill me and do some regrading in the process. I ran .25 oz /M of Tnex on the back and avoided the areas that need to fill in. I haven't had success using tnex on areas trying to fill, to me I'd rather have long runners mowing in those areas, then periodically I clip the long stolons and usually that causes those stolons to create new bunched plants of bermuda and get my density and more growth.
Click to expand...

You mean you just sever the stolon with a pair of scissors or something and it forms a new bunch faster than it would have spread out if you didn't touch it?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

cglarsen said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sbcgenii said:
> 
> 
> 
> First the front looks awesome. Second what is in the back 419 or common? What rate did you apply the PGR and what brand?
> 
> 
> 
> The back is Tifway 419 and the same patched common sod the builder used. I haven't been able to reel mow it because of all the sand in the back since June. Everytime I look at the back I really want to attack it with the reel mower but just don't want to chew up a reel this late in the season, and don't want to stress it further. Dealing with cheap sod mixed into hybrid is a super pain, I'm doing my best to try and plan a renovation strategy for next year, but the wife isn't thrilled about spending an entire summer without a backyard again. My plans are to go to Tifgrand next year...as long as the wife doesn't kill me and do some regrading in the process. I ran .25 oz /M of Tnex on the back and avoided the areas that need to fill in. I haven't had success using tnex on areas trying to fill, to me I'd rather have long runners mowing in those areas, then periodically I clip the long stolons and usually that causes those stolons to create new bunched plants of bermuda and get my density and more growth.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You mean you just sever the stolon with a pair of scissors or something and it forms a new bunch faster than it would have spread out if you didn't touch it?
Click to expand...

Yep....if I've got lots of bare area filling in and really long runners stretching and the nodes are tacked down. I'll come split the runner with scissors. Then new directional growth starts in both places. Poor mans grooming, to improve density in bare spots.


----------



## cglarsen

HungrySoutherner said:


> cglarsen said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> The back is Tifway 419 and the same patched common sod the builder used. I haven't been able to reel mow it because of all the sand in the back since June. Everytime I look at the back I really want to attack it with the reel mower but just don't want to chew up a reel this late in the season, and don't want to stress it further. Dealing with cheap sod mixed into hybrid is a super pain, I'm doing my best to try and plan a renovation strategy for next year, but the wife isn't thrilled about spending an entire summer without a backyard again. My plans are to go to Tifgrand next year...as long as the wife doesn't kill me and do some regrading in the process. I ran .25 oz /M of Tnex on the back and avoided the areas that need to fill in. I haven't had success using tnex on areas trying to fill, to me I'd rather have long runners mowing in those areas, then periodically I clip the long stolons and usually that causes those stolons to create new bunched plants of bermuda and get my density and more growth.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean you just sever the stolon with a pair of scissors or something and it forms a new bunch faster than it would have spread out if you didn't touch it?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep....if I've got lots of bare area filling in and really long runners stretching and the nodes are tacked down. I'll come split the runner with scissors. Then new directional growth starts in both places. Poor mans grooming, to improve density in bare spots.
Click to expand...

Learn something everyday here. I have a lot of cutting to do then. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Just an update . Density is coming back along with all the common. My guess is the seeded varieties just aren't susceptible to this approach. I managed to get more 419 to come up in the heavy common areas and I'm sure over a period of 2 years and some plugging you could remove it this way but officially it's not worth going this way if you have a seeded Bermuda mixed in hybrid , it will really hit the common hard but it will come back. I think a better strategy would be to do a low dose blanket app of tenacity + simazine to light up the common areas then follow it up with a tank mix of gly+ fusilade + tenacity + triclopyr to smoke those areas off real good and then plug or sod into those areas. It's less elegant , but allows you to find the areas of common mixed in the hybrid since it will light up.


----------



## Brackin4au

@HungrySoutherner where do you plan to get your tifgrand? Going to sprig or sod it?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Brackin4au said:


> @HungrySoutherner where do you plan to get your tifgrand? Going to sprig or sod it?


I plan to get it from Coosa Valley. They are the closest local supplier. I had originally planned to sprig, but the wife vetoed that option after the big spray out I did the summer. For my size lawn it doesn't really make sense I only need 2 pallets...maybe 2.5 pallets. I plan to do the sod on the front in 2020 and in 2021 or even possibly late next summer I'll verticut and sprig the back. Was going to just resod the entire yard, but I've got to many simultaneous yard things to do to get sod down on the same date and smoke off the entire yard without my wife getting mad.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Daily update yard is almost fully recovered and dense. The areas of common have basically come back and filled in but there is more 419 now in those areas. I'll probably do a write up in the warm season thread describing the whole process in detail and how I think you could do this and get a foothold on common Bermuda . Going to spoon feed another .25# of N today and go ahead and put my front yard back under PGR regulation to thicken it up going into winter .


----------



## cjackson0314

It's recovered quite well. We should have plenty of warm weather to spare here in Alabama for it to be back to 100%.


----------



## Brackin4au

HungrySoutherner said:


> Brackin4au said:
> 
> 
> 
> @HungrySoutherner where do you plan to get your tifgrand? Going to sprig or sod it?
> 
> 
> 
> I plan to get it from Coosa Valley. They are the closest local supplier. I had originally planned to sprig, but the wife vetoed that option after the big spray out I did the summer. For my size lawn it doesn't really make sense I only need 2 pallets...maybe 2.5 pallets. I plan to do the sod on the front in 2020 and in 2021 or even possibly late next summer I'll verticut and sprig the back. Was going to just resod the entire yard, but I've got to many simultaneous yard things to do to get sod down on the same date and smoke off the entire yard without my wife getting mad.
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: looking forward to it!


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Different kind of update today. I've been documenting my journey to manage the common Bermuda that came into my lawn when the original sod was laid in 2016. I've finally identified that the areas I've been trying to kill in my front yard with simazine + tenacity as an AZ common variety like gold glove or black jack etc. several local sod farms selling uncertified tifway 419 have fields that are contaminated with seeded common varieties. I've got the same issue in my backyard but only worse. I did some flower bed and grade renovation in my backyard this summer and bought 150sqft of tifway 419 to fill an area, but it was in bad shape when I got it so it was free. Now that that sod has rebounded in my backyard I've started to put it all back under pgr and here is where my anxiety has started. The most recent sod purchased is also not tifway 419 , as it was recovering I started to think it wasn't because of the stolon structure and leaf size but didn't want to make a final judgment because it was coming back from death . Once I put it under pgr it became super obvious this is yet another variety of common based on color and stolon and leaf texture. If you've got a yard with hybrid and common Bermuda you will quickly realize that PGR can create as many problems as it helps. In my case I can't apply the same rate of pgr to the hybrid as the common or the hybrid gets bronzed , which happened to my last application . The other issue is when the yard is under suppression the common, even suppressed, clobbers the real 419 and grows on top of it and smothers it. I've now identified 4 types of Bermuda growing in my back yard all of which came from sod identified as 419 , only one of which is actual hybrid 419. It's a real disaster , and the real lesson learned is sod farms are shady, and certified sod is worth the expense. This picture is all 4 varieties under suppression . I've come to point of no option or return and decided the entire yard is going to have to go. I'm going to try and seed some PRG into the areas I applied simazine tomorrow and see if it will germinate. If it does , I'm going to start the kill off now to get ahead for next year. Let me know if you can spot the 419 in this picture


----------



## HungrySoutherner

3 weeks without rain and we finally got some so the yard color has been helped out. The density is really coming back to the front lawn, even though their are areas that are empty from total common kill. I started a small perennial rye experiment yesterday, in the area that was hit with the most simazine to see if PRG will germinate, fingers crossed. Will know in a week if it works, the plan is to kill off the entire yard and overseed till spring and then total renovation to Tifgrand


----------



## cglarsen

HungrySoutherner said:


> Different kind of update today. I've been documenting my journey to manage the common Bermuda that came into my lawn when the original sod was laid in 2016. I've finally identified that the areas I've been trying to kill in my front yard with simazine + tenacity as an AZ common variety like gold glove or black jack etc. several local sod farms selling uncertified tifway 419 have fields that are contaminated with seeded common varieties. I've got the same issue in my backyard but only worse. I did some flower bed and grade renovation in my backyard this summer and bought 150sqft of tifway 419 to fill an area, but it was in bad shape when I got it so it was free. Now that that sod has rebounded in my backyard I've started to put it all back under pgr and here is where my anxiety has started. The most recent sod purchased is also not tifway 419 , as it was recovering I started to think it wasn't because of the stolon structure and leaf size but didn't want to make a final judgment because it was coming back from death . Once I put it under pgr it became super obvious this is yet another variety of common based on color and stolon and leaf texture. If you've got a yard with hybrid and common Bermuda you will quickly realize that PGR can create as many problems as it helps. In my case I can't apply the same rate of pgr to the hybrid as the common or the hybrid gets bronzed , which happened to my last application . The other issue is when the yard is under suppression the common, even suppressed, clobbers the real 419 and grows on top of it and smothers it. I've now identified 4 types of Bermuda growing in my back yard all of which came from sod identified as 419 , only one of which is actual hybrid 419. It's a real disaster , and the real lesson learned is sod farms are shady, and certified sod is worth the expense. This picture is all 4 varieties under suppression . I've come to point of no option or return and decided the entire yard is going to have to go. I'm going to try and seed some PRG into the areas I applied simazine tomorrow and see if it will germinate. If it does , I'm going to start the kill off now to get ahead for next year. Let me know if you can spot the 419 in this picture


I have the exact same situation but worse with a mix of hybrid, improved common, plain old common, and pasture quality common bermuda. I can only apply PGR at the low rate or it hits the hybrid too hard and I fear that the pasture common crap is going to spread the fastest. It's half of my front yard too.

Your lawn looks amazingly uniform despite your different varieties. I'd take that in a heartbeat. If you do move forward with a kill and renovation make sure you REALLY get it all. @SWB did a large-scale renovation and the common came back several years later. It's the the undead - it just doesn't die.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

cglarsen said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Different kind of update today. I've been documenting my journey to manage the common Bermuda that came into my lawn when the original sod was laid in 2016. I've finally identified that the areas I've been trying to kill in my front yard with simazine + tenacity as an AZ common variety like gold glove or black jack etc. several local sod farms selling uncertified tifway 419 have fields that are contaminated with seeded common varieties. I've got the same issue in my backyard but only worse. I did some flower bed and grade renovation in my backyard this summer and bought 150sqft of tifway 419 to fill an area, but it was in bad shape when I got it so it was free. Now that that sod has rebounded in my backyard I've started to put it all back under pgr and here is where my anxiety has started. The most recent sod purchased is also not tifway 419 , as it was recovering I started to think it wasn't because of the stolon structure and leaf size but didn't want to make a final judgment because it was coming back from death . Once I put it under pgr it became super obvious this is yet another variety of common based on color and stolon and leaf texture. If you've got a yard with hybrid and common Bermuda you will quickly realize that PGR can create as many problems as it helps. In my case I can't apply the same rate of pgr to the hybrid as the common or the hybrid gets bronzed , which happened to my last application . The other issue is when the yard is under suppression the common, even suppressed, clobbers the real 419 and grows on top of it and smothers it. I've now identified 4 types of Bermuda growing in my back yard all of which came from sod identified as 419 , only one of which is actual hybrid 419. It's a real disaster , and the real lesson learned is sod farms are shady, and certified sod is worth the expense. This picture is all 4 varieties under suppression . I've come to point of no option or return and decided the entire yard is going to have to go. I'm going to try and seed some PRG into the areas I applied simazine tomorrow and see if it will germinate. If it does , I'm going to start the kill off now to get ahead for next year. Let me know if you can spot the 419 in this picture
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have the exact same situation but worse with a mix of hybrid, improved common, plain old common, and pasture quality common bermuda. I can only apply PGR at the low rate or it hits the hybrid too hard and I fear that the pasture common crap is going to spread the fastest. It's half of my front yard too.
> 
> Your lawn looks amazingly uniform despite your different varieties. I'd take that in a heartbeat. If you do move forward with a kill and renovation make sure you REALLY get it all. @SWB did a large-scale renovation and the common came back several years later. It's the the undead - it just doesn't die.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's why I'm hoping the PRG will germinate. If I can grow PRG over the winter that is the absolute best option because I can use @greendoc soul stealer cocktail once before seeding PRG this fall to get an initial kill on the all the bermuda, apply Glyphosate the day of the seed goes down to get a second kill. Wait out the winter and then do 2 more apps of soul stealer before the Tifgrand sod would go down in the Spring to get as much gone as possible. If I can't germinate in my front yard because of the simazine, I'm still probably going to go nuclear on the back yard and follow that plan and will pick up on the front in the spring and get at least 2 applications on it before sod. I'm pretty lucky in that my 2 neighbors don't have common in their yards because of shade issues it wouldn't establish there. All of my common bermuda problems came from sorry sod farms.


----------



## cglarsen

Well I just threw down some PRG Sunday on some bare areas that won't fill in this year. Sounds like your test plot may have started as well. I can let you know when mine germinates for comparison to yours.


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## HungrySoutherner

Just updating the current state of the yard. The density is really coming back to the front yard. I'm hoping to see germination of the PRG by Monday to flip the switch and kill everything off. The backyard is mostly filled in by every type of Bermuda grass known to man which isn't tifway 419. My 419 in my backyard is still bronzed and hasn't pushed out which the common Bermuda is loving and just growing on top of it. Actually have a picture of what that looks like . Now it's a waiting game for the PRG


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## HungrySoutherner

Got back from vacation and the yard needs a mow. Things are marching along. My test plot of rye grass has germinated and seems to be growing up fine in the area that was hit heavy with simazine so plan is to kill off the entire yard on Friday in preparation for PRG over the winter and will finish the kill off in spring to make way for tifgrand sod. Neighbors will think I'm insane for the next month till the PRG grows in mid October . I say hold my beer and watch this


----------



## Movingshrub

HungrySoutherner said:


> so plan is to kill off the entire yard on Friday in preparation for PRG over the winter and will finish the kill off in spring to make way for tifgrand sod. Neighbors will think I'm insane for the next month till the PRG grows in mid October . I say hold my beer and watch this


So crazy a plan, only a mad man could love it.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Movingshrub said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> so plan is to kill off the entire yard on Friday in preparation for PRG over the winter and will finish the kill off in spring to make way for tifgrand sod. Neighbors will think I'm insane for the next month till the PRG grows in mid October . I say hold my beer and watch this
> 
> 
> 
> So crazy a plan, only a mad man could love it.
Click to expand...

I learned from the craziest man in town.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Well the day has finally come. I've taken it about as far as I can, and am ready to start the renovation process. I've spent 3 years trying to save the tifway 419, loads of sand and experiments with removing the common bermuda. I'm going to give it one final mow today and tomorrow I'll be spraying out the entire yard with Soul Stealer. I'll get a second application of Glyphosate right before I lay Perennial Rye down in October, and will ride it out till spring, spray out the PRG and see if anything greens up and then will be putting down Tifgrand bermuda. Its going to be pretty critical that I get as much killed as possible before the new sod, so this will give me a head start and better odds before sod.


----------



## CarolinaCuttin

Just jumping in here and I know you're going to kill the lawn, but I'm not convinced that you are contaminated with common. The leaf texture is virtually identical to the Tifway, the main difference is that the contaminated patches are lighter green and my guess is they are a little more vigorously growing. I feel pretty confident that you have Tifgreen (328) mixed in with your Tifway. I'm a greenskeeper at a golf course that has both types everywhere. 328 is always the first thing to scalp and unless you give it continuous shots of Fe/Mg/Mn, the color difference really stands out. Also, 328 seems like something you would see in a sod farm as opposed to common which is pretty unlikely. We have sod cut out 328 to a depth of 2 inches and had it come back from the dirt. It also came back no problem from a glyphosate app. Be prepared to do multiple apps and know that it is very likely you will not kill it all unless you fumigate.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

CarolinaCuttin said:


> Just jumping in here and I know you're going to kill the lawn, but I'm not convinced that you are contaminated with common. The leaf texture is virtually identical to the Tifway, the main difference is that the contaminated patches are lighter green and my guess is they are a little more vigorously growing. I feel pretty confident that you have Tifgreen (328) mixed in with your Tifway. I'm a greenskeeper at a golf course that has both types everywhere. 328 is always the first thing to scalp and unless you give it continuous shots of Fe/Mg/Mn, the color difference really stands out. Also, 328 seems like something you would see in a sod farm as opposed to common which is pretty unlikely. We have sod cut out 328 to a depth of 2 inches and had it come back from the dirt. It also came back no problem from a glyphosate app. Be prepared to do multiple apps and know that it is very likely you will not kill it all unless you fumigate.


Your absolutely right about the 328, as far as I can tell I've got at least 3 different varieties of tifway in my backyard, the lightest color grass I've got though is some sort of Arizona seed variety gold glove or blackjack. I tracked down the farm that did the original sod and spoke with them and they said they have a uncertified tifway 419 field , that has some contamination from a seed to sprig project they did with some Arizona common. They said it's been very difficult to remove and they don't certify that field because of it and sell it to contractors , basically it just keeps keeping back from different places in the field . I'm using glyphosate, fusillade, triclopyr and tenacity to kill it all multiple times over many months before sod goes down. Best I can do. Also forgot to mention what your seeing isn't scalping but bronzing. For some bizarre reason the 419 didn't like the first app of tnex it got since June and bronzed hard.... it's growing out of it


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## HungrySoutherner

The old girl had a tough time this weekend. I gave the yard a hard cocktail


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## HungrySoutherner

I'm 4 days out from my blanket application of soul stealer and the yard is still hanging tough. Honestly it just looks thirsty because I haven't watered and it's been hot. I'm going to water it to open up the roots and hopefully move this along. Bermuda is tough


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## HungrySoutherner

Day 5 of the kill off and the common Bermuda is checking out first . This is why I absolutely hate seeded varieties of Bermuda and common Bermuda. The hybrid Bermuda is just tougher and more resistant to herbicide damage and this was a very hot mix, but the hybrid will start to die soon.


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## jasonbraswell

Man, I would have bought the sod from you and helped fund the future sod


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## HungrySoutherner

jasonbraswell said:


> Man, I would have bought the sod from you and helped fund the future sod


lol I don't want to contaminate someone else's yard with a hybrid / common issue. I weighed the idea of sod cutting it but I've invested so much time and money on getting my lawn sand capped, sod cutting would have been a set back.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Starting to get into the ugly phase as the tif-419 is starting to turn towards death .


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## HungrySoutherner

Day 7 post kill. The tifway looks a little dinged but still holding on, the common Bermuda just gave up. Going to start digging up sprinkler heads and resolving coverage issues that have plagued me. Need to bring in a few yards of sand to fix a severe low spot on the side of my house. I'm going to give the front yard a little spray of ams to feed it and see if that helps the kill. I plan to reapply glyphosate next weekend to catch stragglers before seed and tenacity in October.


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## HungrySoutherner

Day 9 of kill and things are getting crispy. A few areas are still holding on for reasons I can't explain. Will reapply Glyphosate this weekend and ride it till the PRG goes down.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Coming up on 2 weeks sense the first kill application. Planning on another blanket application of just glyphosate tomorrow. I've started measuring and market locations where irrigation heads need to be moved to get more even coverage while the turf can be torn up . PRG is coming in a few weeks


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## HungrySoutherner

Big weekend in the lawn Reno. I moved 6 sprinkler heads and added an additional head to get more even coverage before the PRG goes down and also raised my irrigation box . The irrigation box will need to be raised again when I resod in the spring and will be adjusting a few slope issues but for now it's an improvement. I haven't been able to track down a riser for my city water box so I'm working on a solution . I also did a second blanket application of glyphosate to continue the kill off. I may or may not have relocated a city pedestrian crossing sign to the property line to get a better position on my sprinkler head that made my neighbor mad.


----------



## cglarsen

Good call raising the irrigation box. That bothered me actually everytime I looked at your lawn, lol.

How's the wife taking the kill? Mine calls herself a "Lawn Widow".


----------



## HungrySoutherner

cglarsen said:


> Good call raising the irrigation box. That bothered me actually everytime I looked at your lawn, lol.
> 
> How's the wife taking the kill? Mine calls herself a "Lawn Widow".


She's not crazy about it. But I keep promising here it will be fine by end of October. The irrigation boxes have drove me crazy to but haven't wanted to deal with how I'm going to fix that area, but with the lawn dead and new sod coming now is a great time to address it. I'll probably have to dig the water meter box all the way out and put a new box in and then stack the old box on top and my blisters from Saturday so not today.


----------



## sanders4617

Man I wanna do this to my lawn so bad. Kill it off. Level it out as best as I can and plant PRG till Spring. So I can kill it all off again over and over in hopes of taking out the current stand.

Good luck to you. Will be rewarding in the end. Not sure I have the guts to go through with it after the rebuilding I did this season.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

sanders4617 said:


> Man I wanna do this to my lawn so bad. Kill it off. Level it out as best as I can and plant PRG till Spring. So I can kill it all off again over and over in hopes of taking out the current stand.
> 
> Good luck to you. Will be rewarding in the end. Not sure I have the guts to go through with it after the rebuilding I did this season.


If my lawn was bigger I would have been more afraid. Plus timing work out just right. I'll have sprayed out the Bermuda 3 times before PRG goes down so the remain Bermuda will struggle during winter , then in the spring I'll start killing all over before sod.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Quick update as I've had time with dead grass to raise my irrigation and water meter boxes and move some sprinkler heads. I'm going to top dress and spray gly one more time on Thursday before planting PRG Saturday . The timing is good because our temps are supposed to start coming down Friday. I also wanted to include a picture of another project I've been working on . My neighbors have never been able to grow turf in their backyard so I agreed to do the grass growing part and prep if they would remove the giant pine trees that kept turf from growing , I put down tttf about 9 days ago and am pretty impressed with the coverage and have been managing the irrigation well. Will start backing down the irrigation Thursday and get in an app of 20-20-20 to kick it up with the cooler temps


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Spoiler alert . I finally got my PRG down to cover the yard and 24 hours later we got a down pour..... I've now got 10 lbs of giant clumps of PRG in the yard and driveway. This cool season seed stuff is for someone else. I'm ready for Bermuda sod again


----------



## Gibby

Awwwwwww


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Well I got back out today after the rain to clean the gigantic mess up. 80% of the seed I put down had washed out in giant piles , and a bulk was in my driveway and road. I basically had to start over , rerake the yard and tried to salvage as much seed as possible then roll it back in. I'm praying the rain coming Monday won't be a down pour. The downside to having a sand capped yard is when there is not turf holding it back it has a tendency to move alot. Well guess I'll update again when I get germination, I'm positive I'm going to have areas that come up in gigantic clumps and will need to seed some more to fill in.


----------



## The_iHenry

HungrySoutherner said:


> Spoiler alert . I finally got my PRG down to cover the yard and 24 hours later we got a down pour..... I've now got 10 lbs of giant clumps of PRG in the yard and driveway. This cool season seed stuff is for someone else. I'm ready for Bermuda sod again


Wow. That flat out sucks! PRG is pretty pricey for it to be washed out like that. 
Bummer


----------



## HungrySoutherner

The_iHenry said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler alert . I finally got my PRG down to cover the yard and 24 hours later we got a down pour..... I've now got 10 lbs of giant clumps of PRG in the yard and driveway. This cool season seed stuff is for someone else. I'm ready for Bermuda sod again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. That flat out sucks! PRG is pretty pricey for it to be washed out like that.
> Bummer
Click to expand...

Meh in the scheme of things its more of a pain than anything. I'm just planting it for cover till I resod in the spring. I've still got PRG left to fix the washout. I'm just letting what will germinate come up this week, that should help with washout next week and will patch the issues spots.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

After a little bit of a missed start things are rolling along with the PRG cover crop. I'm adding more seed this week to help fill the washed out areas and the temps have finally cooled off to help this along. I'm going to attempt a mow tomorrow and will put out some fert and waste the rest of rgs I have to get rid of it. The green of this stuff almost looks toxic, I miss my Bermuda. Also just proud the TTTF has come along so well, it got its first mow yesterday and I've been tapering the water back to toughen up the plants. It's color is really starting to come now. Will report back in a few Days to see how things thicken up with the PRG


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## HungrySoutherner

Finally got a mow in. Stripes good as expected but I'm not crazy about the texture of the Rye....


----------



## Redtwin

Goodness! That almost glows...


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## samjonester

How long since germination for you? A week or so? The color will come in a couple weeks as it thickens up.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

samjonester said:


> How long since germination for you? A week or so? The color will come in a couple weeks as it thickens up.


2 weeks post germination.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Another mow done on the PRG at .75"..... I have an absolute hate-hate relationship with this stuff right now.... it's an absolute mess to mow currently. It mows so wet regardless of 24-48 hours of dry time. I'm hoping as it matures it will firm up more and become less a pain, otherwise it's going to start getting the rotary treatment so I don't have to deal with the mess on the driveway and the extreme labor to clean up the reel mower. Also it seems to double in size over night which compounds the mess. Also so far it requires a double mow otherwise it mats down and tons of grass is missed. My plan is to have it at .5" by the end of the week and I'm hoping that will help with all the mess. I missss my Bermuda


----------



## Redtwin

...but those stripes!


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## HungrySoutherner

Redtwin said:


> ...but those stripes!


Yeah this is true


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Still trying to wrangle this mess. I've yet to have a dry enjoyable mow that didn't involve a ton of clean up. It's still at .75", but am going to take it down to .5" on Thursday after it's had a few days of drying time. I'm ready for a freeze to slow this stuff down, it grows like 10" a day


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## Redtwin

Looks thick! You're actually getting some washboarding. Hopefully at .5" it will dry out quicker for you. The mess is one of the reasons I haven't overseeded yet. Not on the mower but on the kids who roll and slide around all over. I would hear it all winter about grass stains on clothes. Those stripes are something else though.


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## HungrySoutherner

Redtwin said:


> Looks thick! You're actually getting some washboarding. Hopefully at .5" it will dry out quicker for you. The mess is one of the reasons I haven't overseeded yet. Not on the mower but on the kids who roll and slide around all over. I would hear it all winter about grass stains on clothes. Those stripes are something else though.


Yeah I'm going to mow it down today to set the final height at .5", it hasn't seen water in 3 days so I'm hoping the mow goes better. That's not actually washboarding, but your seeing where the seed got planted in little rows, from the verticut I did before putting seed down and rolling it in after dragging kind of like slit seeding, but the grooves just weren't close enough.


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## HungrySoutherner

Ok time to dust off the lawn journal. I rode out the PRG all winter, and unlike everyone else I hated every minute of the PRG. It was just a nasty mess to mow all winter and spring and with all the rain it only made matters worse. In April I started spraying it out with Glyphosate and started hammering it with fertilizer to see how much bermuda was left over from last years big kill off. End of April with only a hand full of spots showing 1 or 2 tiny bermuda plants coming up I hit the entire yard with Glyphosate, Tenacity, Fusilade and Triclopyr. I've been fertilizing it and then last week repeated another application of that for good measure. With the heat and rain I haven't seen anymore bermuda. I did a big irrigation renovation to get ready for the Tifgrand sod arriving next week. That was back breaking work but I got my valves and manifold relocated to the side of my house and reworked my zones for better coverage. Today I have 10 yards of sand coming to reestablish my sand cap from all of the digging which will now be at 5 inches across my whole front yard and will fix some low spots. I used a laser and stakes to get my slope marked correctly and identify areas that need more sand. I still have one patch of TTTF on the side of my house that stays in shade 80% of the time, but I plan to put down tifgrand in some of that area to see how it does, and will try and push the tifgrand farther back if it will take it. Lots more to post coming soon as the sod arrives. I have a schedule for how I will be handling the sod, feeding it, beating it up, and top dressing it this summer.


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## seebryango

Nerd


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## HungrySoutherner

@seebryango I know you respect it.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Last week I had 10 yards of sand delivered to start leveling out the front and filling in a trench in my backyard that will get sodded over to add my 5th variety of bermuda to my back yard. I want to see how the TifGrand holds up to the dogs and kids before I renovate the back to a monostand variety. I plan to test it against TifTuf this year and all the other varieties that are back there. The common varieties in the back are struggling this year compared to the 419 so I'm kind of hoping to see how I can stress it out in case of future contamination. The front got another 1" of sand to prepare for the sod arriving and having laser graded and marked the yard let me get it right. With all the rain I'm fighting wash out till the sod gets here, but its helped to move the sand into the lowest areas.


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## JRS 9572

Much respect for the work ethic of a Russian peasant. Seriously. I'd a had a heart attack half way in.


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## Gibby

Will you explain how you used the stakes?


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## HungrySoutherner

Gibby said:


> Will you explain how you used the stakes?


Yeah so I set the laser emitter up on my high point in the yard and established that as my "Level". I have 4 posts that mark the corners of the top of my lawn that is 1000 sqft. from the highpoint , to 2 of those stakes like a right triangle I want the slope to be the same, then 3 point is lower and really can't be brought up because of the driveway so that is naturally going to be the direction I want most of my water to run off when it rains. Then I took a string, attached it to the stake at the zero reference or highpoint and stretched it to increments around the border of that rectangular towards the street and placed stakes along the string in radiating out and marked each stake with the same reference level mark rinse and repeat such that each stake shows level relative to my high point. After all the stakes were marked I could take measurements around the yard to gauge low spots and determine how much sand I would need and overall how much I wanted to bring everything up before the sod. I guess its hard to describe without seeing the madness. When I placed the stakes I didn't place them evenly down the string because there was already a stake near enough to give me a reference so I spaced them out. I haven't finished leveling because I didn't want to deal with shoveling sand run off everytime it rains. I'll be sure to take pictures when I get out and finish raking it out and show how I actually use the stakes to rake out the sand and how the string works on setting my slope. My lawn was overall pretty flat but I had a few areas that need to be brought up at least 1" or more so doing it this way really helped me take the guessing game out. Its ultimately just a grid system so my eyes are fooling me about what level is etc.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

JRS 9572 said:


> Much respect for the work ethic of a Russian peasant. Seriously. I'd a had a heart attack half way in.


I've hauled in so much sand over the last 4 seasons at this point its almost therapeutic to spread sand. On my front yard this will probably be the last major sand job I'll do, other than just light top dressing. The entire soil base is 4.5 - 5" of sand. Next year when completely renovate my backyard I'll probably need 25 yards of sand to fix the issues my contractor created with the crown of my yard on both sides of the house, so that's probably going to be a situation where I'll rent some equipment to get it moved in place.


----------



## Gibby

HungrySoutherner said:


> Gibby said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will you explain how you used the stakes?
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah so I set the laser emitter up on my high point in the yard and established that as my "Level". I have 4 posts that mark the corners of the top of my lawn that is 1000 sqft. from the highpoint , to 2 of those stakes like a right triangle I want the slope to be the same, then 3 point is lower and really can't be brought up because of the driveway so that is naturally going to be the direction I want most of my water to run off when it rains. Then I took a string, attached it to the stake at the zero reference or highpoint and stretched it to increments around the border of that rectangular towards the street and placed stakes along the string in radiating out and marked each stake with the same reference level mark rinse and repeat such that each stake shows level relative to my high point. After all the stakes were marked I could take measurements around the yard to gauge low spots and determine how much sand I would need and overall how much I wanted to bring everything up before the sod. I guess its hard to describe without seeing the madness. When I placed the stakes I didn't place them evenly down the string because there was already a stake near enough to give me a reference so I spaced them out. I haven't finished leveling because I didn't want to deal with shoveling sand run off everytime it rains. I'll be sure to take pictures when I get out and finish raking it out and show how I actually use the stakes to rake out the sand and how the string works on setting my slope. My lawn was overall pretty flat but I had a few areas that need to be brought up at least 1" or more so doing it this way really helped me take the guessing game out. Its ultimately just a grid system so my eyes are fooling me about what level is etc.
Click to expand...

I think I follow now, so there are marks on the stakes?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

@Gibby yeah. Each stake has 2 marks. the top mark is my reference 0 or level from the high point in the yard. The second mark is close to the ground where I pulled the string a second time to mark the slope I'm targeting. That made it easy so I didn't have strings everywhere and could roughly get the sand at the depth I needed. Right before the sod shows up I'll pull strings out and rake everything as close as possible and water it in to pack it down.


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## HungrySoutherner

After almost 2 weeks of rain out on my TifGrand Sod delivery I finally got it down yesterday. I was pretty tired of raking sand back into the yard. The main focus was getting the front right but I ended up bringing up a low portion in my backyard and sodding over sand. Odds are pretty low that the sod in the back will take, but if it does it will be a good experiment to see the tifGrand against the 30 other varieties of Bermuda I have in the back. I plan to renovate the backyard next year and get the grade right and resod to a single variety. For the next 2 weeks I'll be gentle on the sod, let it establish, roll it everyday and then will start to beat it up and topdress.


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## JRS 9572

:thumbup:


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## HungrySoutherner

TifGrand Sod is 1 week old. I applied 1#N /M of 19-19-19 and 4.5oz /M of Subvert Depth 10+ last Sunday and dropped a carpet bomb on the Insects with Bifen, Imadicloprid, Dylox and Acelyprn. Lot of insect and grub action coming from the sod farm so I hit it coming and going. I've been rolling the sod everyday to help flatten it out, but it's going to get scalped and buried in sand in 1 week to smooth it out and fill seems and bumps. I gave the sod it's first hair cut today just to clean it up a little at 1.25" going easy on it not to stress it out, still managed to scalp in a spot or 2. Looking forward to taking it to dirt next weekend and finishing off the last of the heavy work.


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## probasestealer

@HungrySoutherner this looks good. I'd guess you have some decent rooting at this point


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## AZChemist

Nice! Welcome to the club!


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## HungrySoutherner

probasestealer said:


> @HungrySoutherner this looks good. I'd guess you have some decent rooting at this point


Yeah its well rooted. It will be back to dirt on Thursday and covered in sand Friday.


----------



## probasestealer

HungrySoutherner said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> 
> @HungrySoutherner this looks good. I'd guess you have some decent rooting at this point
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah its well rooted. It will be back to dirt on Thursday and covered in sand Friday.
Click to expand...

Back to dirt? Scalping?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

probasestealer said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> 
> @HungrySoutherner this looks good. I'd guess you have some decent rooting at this point
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah its well rooted. It will be back to dirt on Thursday and covered in sand Friday.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Back to dirt? Scalping?
Click to expand...

Yes I'll scalp it all the way back to the ground to remove as much of the sod farm growth as possible and top dress


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## Daddylonglegs

Really nice work here @HungrySoutherner this is the model of a sod install done the right way start to finish!


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## HungrySoutherner

Daddylonglegs said:


> Really nice work here @HungrySoutherner this is the model of a sod install done the right way start to finish!


Thanks its a lot of fun. Plus I love sand. I'm pretty sure over the last few years my yard has spent more time under sand and looking bad as I work through strategies and issues, but fingers crossed the renovation has set me up for a much improved turf moving forward.


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## seebryango

Can't wait to see the results


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## HungrySoutherner

Ok time for a mini update since I've had the sod down for 2 weeks and been really gentle with it. Time to rough it up. So far I have put down .75# N per week and carpet bombed all of the insects. Thursday I went to town and scalped as best as I could doing my best to take it all the way to the dirt the sod came on, tifGrand is so much harder to scalp compared to Tif419 and I was forced into using the rotary scissors and dethatch rake to get as much removed as possible before I just gave up. Friday I had 6 yards of sand to top dress 3k sqft and buried my lawn front and back, raked it in and ran the drag mat. My neighbor decided to install a very interesting barrier/flower bed to prevent the Bermuda from invading his weeds so he was chucking sand back into my yard for me. Saturday I spent 4 hours with the water hose forcing the sand down into the canopy so I can get this moving faster, and today I came with the push broom and broomed everything in even deeper. I haven't talked about my backyard disaster in a while but it has officially become a full on science experiment. Before the sod was delivered I went full send and put 9 yards of sand in a very large low swell in my backyard and brought it all the way up so my backyard is now more level, then sodded over it with tifgrand so I can see how tifgrand does compared to the tif419, tif328,tifsport and whatever common bermuda situation is going on in the back. But wow can you tell the color and texture difference. The backyard will get a full renovation next year to either tifgrand or tiftuf so we will see how the tifgrand does with the kid and dog. One other thing we are testing this year is a automower from Husqvarna instead of reel mowing. We've had it running on our backyard for a few weeks and so far, with a small hack, its beautifully maintaining it at .5". It will be interesting to see how it does taking care of the entire yard once the sod grows through the sand.


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## HungrySoutherner

1 week post scalp and top dressing. Outside of some washout issues due to down pour rains things are looking good and recovering fast. I've been out brooming in different areas to keep working the sand down. The automower has been a huge helping hand since it will mow rain or shine and sand doesn't bother it. The drive wheels on the mower running on the lawn has actually help work the sand in quicker. I'll probably top dress again in late July to finish off the sod leveling but will be much lighter. I'll give the lawn a shot of triple 20, subvert depth10+ and some iron tomorrow. Should be looking pretty good outside of the deepest areas in the backyard for the 4th of July


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## Gibby

Looks good @HungrySoutherner

Looks like that Tifgrand grows vertically pretty aggressively.

I had rain almost everyday since leveling and it was a PITA with everything being sloped. I'll need to level again in a month probably but will use much less sand.


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## raymond

@HungrySoutherner - looking real good. Just took a spin through your journal... you've had quite the journey! Cheers


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## Sbcgenii

Auto mower is sounding real nice to me right now. Cut everyday if you wanted. Miss PGR app? It cool just run the mower more lol.


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## HungrySoutherner

raymond said:


> @HungrySoutherner - looking real good. Just took a spin through your journal... you've had quite the journey! Cheers


Thanks. The journey is the fun part. I've got so much of it on autopilot now its going to be fun just enjoying it for the rest of the growing season. I'm about to drop the HOC on the robot to 10mm so the updates in the coming weeks will be fun.


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## JRS 9572

Do you miss "enjoying the mow" since the robot is "doing the work" so to speak?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

JRS 9572 said:


> Do you miss "enjoying the mow" since the robot is "doing the work" so to speak?


Not really yet. It's really relaxing to sit on the porch and just watch the robot get it done. Plus the benefit so far is rain or shine its managing the turf at the exact same height every day. So my new version of enjoying the mow is having my morning coffee or afternoon cold beverage and watching the yard not grow. Obviously you don't get stripes, but I'll trade stripes for bermuda at .385" cut every single day rain or shine. The cut quality has been very fantastic.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Quick update to show the progress and scary scalping look ive got going on. Husqvarna has a fairway kit that allows you to drop the min HOC on the mower to 10mm so I felt like now was just as good of a time as any to slam the mower to the bottom and see if robots with razor blades can get reel low. It's taken a few days for the mower to get in a groove cutting at this height and I quickly identified areas that needed more sand or needs sand broomed down. I plan to ride out the experiment at 10mm for 1 full week of mowing and see what the grass is doing and how it's tolerating it or if it's to scalpy. In my case I'm almost having to change the blades everyday because of the sand chewing the blades off with every mow. I know once the turf grows out the blade life will be back to normal but the sand is harsh. I'm ordering some cheap off brand blades to try for when I'm leveling. I'll report back in 1 week and see if it's recovering or if I've bumped the HOC back to .5"


----------



## HungrySoutherner

The turf is still filling in from all the beating I've been doing on it with sand and scalping, but areas are returning and starting to thicken up. One observation that has been surprising is the yard is growing in drastically different with the robot compared to when I was reel mowing at .39". With the reel as the grass was growing in it was being constantly rolled down so early after a scalp and top dress it would look deceptively fuller sooner with the leaf flattened on the ground. With the robot the grass is growing upright and each individual plant is denser as the mower shaves tiny pieces of leaf everyday, almost like the yard has been groomed or verticut. Visually I think it will take longer to look full and grown in, but at the same time I think the turf density might actually be higher by that point. This experiment is really awesome. Here is a picture as proof that the mower is actually keeping the HOC at 10mm everyday rain or shine.


----------



## JRS 9572

If you consistently mow at different patterns with the reel, then you wouldn't have the effect you're talking about correct?

Not trying to start an argument. Just talking through it. Interesting stuff.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

JRS 9572 said:


> If you consistently mow at different patterns with the reel, then you wouldn't have the effect you're talking about correct?
> 
> Not trying to start an argument. Just talking through it. Interesting stuff.


Not really sure to be honest. I know when I was reel mowing I always varied my pattern but the weight of the mower and the basically 100% sand nature of my lawn would always roll the turf down especially if I was mowing every other day or 3 days. The robot mows every single day, is barely mowing any grass off the top and constantly mows from every direction. The mower is really light relative to other mowers, and what is different compare to a standard rotary mower is the swinging blades are sharp and there is no suction force generated from the cutting action. The other interesting thing is the traction wheel effect on the lawn, in my case with sand its actually helping me out because the dimples on the drive wheels has been helping to work the sand down as it mows, it will lay the grass down a little as it rolls over it but not nearly the same as reel mower drum. Each individual bermuda plant/node is definitely growing more upright compared to what I was seeing with the reel. I don't know if this is good or bad or makes no difference yet. It hasn't been mowing at this HOC for a full week yet and to compound matters I had to rescalp a lawn that was still trying to recover from growing in from very heavy sand leveling. I'll know a lot more as things progress further into July to have a better idea of how its doing. I haven't met or found anyone yet in other forums that is using the fairway kit on a robot to do this on a lawn so I'm making it up as I go along and learning.


----------



## Mark A

Enjoyed the read thru of your journal. Great work! I want nuke my "Bermuda Mutt" and lay Tifgrand sod. I look forward to more updates.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Mark A said:


> Enjoyed the read thru of your journal. Great work! I want nuke my "Bermuda Mutt" and lay Tifgrand sod. I look forward to more updates.


Do it. Just make sure you start killing it in the fall. You get overall better control on the killing bermuda when you wipe it out going into winter, and then winter helps get a more complete kill if anything is left in its weakened state. Then you start the process all over before the sod arrives.


----------



## Still learnin

Hottest Toddy!

Yard is looking great. Really interested in your final thoughts on the robotic mower.



HungrySoutherner said:


> Ok time for a mini update since I've had the sod down for 2 weeks and been really gentle with it. Time to rough it up. So far I have put down .75# N per week and carpet bombed all of the insects. Thursday I went to town and scalped as best as I could doing my best to take it all the way to the dirt the sod came on, tifGrand is so much harder to scalp compared to Tif419 and I was forced into using the rotary scissors and dethatch rake to get as much removed as possible before I just gave up. Friday I had 6 yards of sand to top dress 3k sqft and buried my lawn front and back, raked it in and ran the drag mat. My neighbor decided to install a very interesting barrier/flower bed to prevent the Bermuda from invading his weeds so he was chucking sand back into my yard for me. Saturday I spent 4 hours with the water hose forcing the sand down into the canopy so I can get this moving faster, and today I came with the push broom and broomed everything in even deeper. I haven't talked about my backyard disaster in a while but it has officially become a full on science experiment. Before the sod was delivered I went full send and put 9 yards of sand in a very large low swell in my backyard and brought it all the way up so my backyard is now more level, then sodded over it with tifgrand so I can see how tifgrand does compared to the tif419, tif328,tifsport and whatever common bermuda situation is going on in the back. But wow can you tell the color and texture difference. The backyard will get a full renovation next year to either tifgrand or tiftuf so we will see how the tifgrand does with the kid and dog. One other thing we are testing this year is a automower from Husqvarna instead of reel mowing. We've had it running on our backyard for a few weeks and so far, with a small hack, its beautifully maintaining it at .5". It will be interesting to see how it does taking care of the entire yard once the sod grows through the sand.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Still learnin said:


> Hottest Toddy!
> 
> Yard is looking great. Really interested in your final thoughts on the robotic mower.


Honestly I can't imagine going back to reel mowing at this point. There are definite areas of improvements with the robot in terms of more efficient mowing patterns, and how it handles slopes and borders but considering it gets up everyday and just mows and is maintaining my yard at .39" with a very nice clean cut I just can't say I'd want to go back to dealing with a reel. The newer versions of these Husqvarna mowers coming in the next couple of years will have more of those features solved. I know folks love the stripes, but I guess I could cook up a roller and broom to push and stripe in patterns if I really wanted to. The darn thing just gets the job done, no PGR required and it doesn't take long to run the rotary scissors and edger once a week to clean up around the borders. After my yard is done recovering I plan to run light PGR mostly to see how Tifgrand does under low rate PGR with daily mowing. Robots are the future.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Its now been 3 weeks since I did a very heavy top dress on the sod to smooth things out. 1 week ago I reset the HOC of the grass to .39" with the robot to get it lowered as it continued to grow out. It was scalped pretty bad. This week we've finally had some good bermuda growing weather with warm temps and sunshine and the grass is finally starting to take off. The front is really starting to fill in from the sand. I have one problem area at the corner of my property near the road that really isn't recovering because of the front slope and constant scalping problems. This area was always the worst spot to mow, for now I'm just going to let the robot do its thing and hope the bermuda just does its thing and will figure out how to grow in, if not I'll adjust the boundary wire there and will just have a larger patch I'll have to hit with the rotary scissors. All in all things are going well. The backyard is recovering well too but it gets more shade so its moving much slower. Since there is a million varieties of bermuda in the back they are all recovering different. I did hit the back yard with Consan 20 to see if it would knock out algae in the turf and it seems to have worked, it did ding the grass but I'm hoping that will grow out quick.


----------



## Gibby

@HungrySoutherner do you a picture of the cut quality between the reel and the automower?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Gibby said:


> @HungrySoutherner do you a picture of the cut quality between the reel and the automower?


If I had a reel I would. I'll try and get a close up picture of the cut quality. Its very comparable to reel in terms of the clean cut, vs the chewed up cut you would get from a rotary. Its pretty easy to tell with the robot when to change the blades similar to a reel that needs backlapping or a fresh grind.


----------



## thompwa

Oh wow, did you sell the Electra?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

thompwa said:


> Oh wow, did you sell the Electra?


Yeah sort of. Great machine


----------



## acegator

Bermuda will laugh at his barrier go deeper and creep up on his patio to taunt



Still learnin said:


> Hottest Toddy!
> 
> Yard is looking great. Really interested in your final thoughts on the robotic mower.
> 
> 
> 
> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok time for a mini update since I've had the sod down for 2 weeks and been really gentle with it. Time to rough it up. So far I have put down .75# N per week and carpet bombed all of the insects. Thursday I went to town and scalped as best as I could doing my best to take it all the way to the dirt the sod came on, tifGrand is so much harder to scalp compared to Tif419 and I was forced into using the rotary scissors and dethatch rake to get as much removed as possible before I just gave up. Friday I had 6 yards of sand to top dress 3k sqft and buried my lawn front and back, raked it in and ran the drag mat. My neighbor decided to install a very interesting barrier/flower bed to prevent the Bermuda from invading his weeds so he was chucking sand back into my yard for me. Saturday I spent 4 hours with the water hose forcing the sand down into the canopy so I can get this moving faster, and today I came with the push broom and broomed everything in even deeper. I haven't talked about my backyard disaster in a while but it has officially become a full on science experiment. Before the sod was delivered I went full send and put 9 yards of sand in a very large low swell in my backyard and brought it all the way up so my backyard is now more level, then sodded over it with tifgrand so I can see how tifgrand does compared to the tif419, tif328,tifsport and whatever common bermuda situation is going on in the back. But wow can you tell the color and texture difference. The backyard will get a full renovation next year to either tifgrand or tiftuf so we will see how the tifgrand does with the kid and dog. One other thing we are testing this year is a automower from Husqvarna instead of reel mowing. We've had it running on our backyard for a few weeks and so far, with a small hack, its beautifully maintaining it at .5". It will be interesting to see how it does taking care of the entire yard once the sod grows through the sand.
Click to expand...


----------



## HungrySoutherner

acegator said:


> Bermuda will laugh at his barrier go deeper and creep up on his patio to taunt


I wish I could get a picture of it but my crazy neighbor goes out with a pair of scissors and edges it every other day


----------



## HungrySoutherner

I'm losing the war against major algae bloom in my back yard. With all the rain and sand and the triple 19 I've been putting out the phosphorus kicks it into high gear. I'm hoping the in coming heat will dry it out , I plan to let the yard get as dry as possible so it will harden up the algae and I can rake it out. I experimented with consan 20 but it scorched some areas so not sure how to dose it correctly for algae bloom. I'm always battling it in my back yard during the summer.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Now that the heat is finally on, which to be honest is way to late in the season for North Alabama, my Tifgrand and "other bermuda" is finally getting into a stride and recovering from nearly 2 months of abuse. The algae bloom in my backyard has quickly resolved itself by letting it completely dry out in the backyard to the point I had to finally break down and run irrigation this morning so I didn't let the yard starve of water. The front renovation with Tifgrand is almost completely filled in all but 2 major spots that got way overscalped and way to buried in sand, basically to the point of death and now the grass is going to have to push in from the outside. I've included a couple pictures of the science project continuing in the backyard to the left of the major sand strip is where I sprayed out the common and 419 and raised the yard up nearly 10 inches and laid Tifgrand. To the right of the sand is common, Tif-419, Tif-sport, Tif-328 and somewhere in there plugs of Tiftuff. The tifgrand is doing well and I'm getting a clear look in the shadiest parts of the yard how its performing against the tiftuff. So far both are recovering slowly from topdressing in the shade, but the heat should give me a better idea of how they perform. The color of the tiftuff is closer to the common than the Tif419 so unless I'm looking at the texture it can be hard to find. The tifgrand on the other hand is easy to spot with the plugs I insert all through out to see how it compares to the others in terms of color, density and growth behavior. I may be the only one around that is very excited about high heat and dry days. I'm still letting the automower maintain everything at 10mm or .38" throughout the entire yard and it continues to impress me, only places its struggling is the front slope of my yard, but its ability to hold has improved as the turf density has improved giving it more to grip onto but every now and then I get the alert that it entered the slope at the wrong angle, hit a sand patch and slide down into the street. So far that is the only negative I've found with my particular model is if you have short steep slopes down to an area the mower can't enter you have to keep an eye out if it loses traction.


----------



## Tifway256

I've got a few questions @HungrySoutherner hope you don't mind! I've got an issue with common Bermuda entangled in some of my Tifway 419. I've done lots of research and this journal is about the only positive outcome I have seen without using glyphosate.

Is there a reason you used simazine?
Could you use prodiamine instead?
Is there anything different you would do if you had to do it again?
Is there a specific rate you think would work best?

Hope you're having a good lawn year, love the journal man keep it up!


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Tifway256 said:


> I've got a few questions @HungrySoutherner hope you don't mind! I've got an issue with common Bermuda entangled in some of my Tifway 419. I've done lots of research and this journal is about the only positive outcome I have seen without using glyphosate.
> 
> Is there a reason you used simazine?
> Could you use prodiamine instead?
> Is there anything different you would do if you had to do it again?
> Is there a specific rate you think would work best?
> 
> Hope you're having a good lawn year, love the journal man keep it up!


Ok so here is the honest truth. If you've got common Bermuda that has invaded 419 round up is really the best option, round up and sod cutting the section is the even better option. It's extremely difficult to try and selectively removing common or seeded common Bermuda from hybrid. It's been done but it's really hard and honestly it really depends on what percent of the lawn is invaded. If you just have some small patches then what I would do is use the tenacity + simazine combo to light up the common Bermuda so you can identify where it is and then use glyphosate x 2 applications spaced 14-21 days apart to just remove it from that area and some margin around it and grow it back in. If your yard was as invaded as mine where it's nearly 40% common invaded then you're due for a renovation. I tried real hard with that combination to get the common to die off but after 2 applications and the yard looking completely dead it all came right back. The combination of tenacity + simazine is the only way you can run it. Prodiamine is not the same as simazine , simazine helps buffer down the effects of the tenacity so it's tolerable to the hybrid. Without the simazine straight tenacity will bleach both types of Bermuda equally and so it won't tell you much. You can find the ratios of tenacity to simazine in the goosegrass paper published by syngenta. Your other option is to try almost oversuppress the common with a combo of tnex and paclo and mow it as low as the 419 will go. If you keep it super low .2" and keep running the paclo with tnex you should be able to stress out the common enough to remove it . I think @Tellycoleman did this with his Yukon with great success


----------



## WarTide

Hungry, where'd you get your sand? I've looked at a couple of places here locally and their sand was chunky and full of pebbles. thanks


----------



## HungrySoutherner

WarTide said:


> Hungry, where'd you get your sand? I've looked at a couple of places here locally and their sand was chunky and full of pebbles. thanks


Good luck. It really has been a mixed bag when it comes to the quality of the sand locally. The stars and moon have to be aligned just right. I've bought sand from Across the Pond, Reseda and Alliance. Alliance masonry sand is the best, its nice and screened but delivery with them is the deal breaker unless you want the entire dump truck load. When it comes to Across the Pond vs Reseda you never know. Across the pond tends to have very small pebbles in the mix even though they say its their landscape sand. Reseda I've had good luck and bad luck with. Last time I bought sand from them it was river sand and was full of clay and mulch, previously its been screened masonry sand so you never know what will show up. I've just had to gamble when it comes to getting sand and needing delivery. If you have a trailer and can haul it Alliance is your cheapest and best source for sand.


----------



## Tifway256

HungrySoutherner said:


> Tifway256 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got a few questions @HungrySoutherner hope you don't mind! I've got an issue with common Bermuda entangled in some of my Tifway 419. I've done lots of research and this journal is about the only positive outcome I have seen without using glyphosate.
> 
> Is there a reason you used simazine?
> Could you use prodiamine instead?
> Is there anything different you would do if you had to do it again?
> Is there a specific rate you think would work best?
> 
> Hope you're having a good lawn year, love the journal man keep it up!
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so here is the honest truth. If you've got common Bermuda that has invaded 419 round up is really the best option, round up and sod cutting the section is the even better option. It's extremely difficult to try and selectively removing common or seeded common Bermuda from hybrid. It's been done but it's really hard and honestly it really depends on what percent of the lawn is invaded. If you just have some small patches then what I would do is use the tenacity + simazine combo to light up the common Bermuda so you can identify where it is and then use glyphosate x 2 applications spaced 14-21 days apart to just remove it from that area and some margin around it and grow it back in. If your yard was as invaded as mine where it's nearly 40% common invaded then you're due for a renovation. I tried real hard with that combination to get the common to die off but after 2 applications and the yard looking completely dead it all came right back. The combination of tenacity + simazine is the only way you can run it. Prodiamine is not the same as simazine , simazine helps buffer down the effects of the tenacity so it's tolerable to the hybrid. Without the simazine straight tenacity will bleach both types of Bermuda equally and so it won't tell you much. You can find the ratios of tenacity to simazine in the goosegrass paper published by syngenta. Your other option is to try almost oversuppress the common with a combo of tnex and paclo and mow it as low as the 419 will go. If you keep it super low .2" and keep running the paclo with tnex you should be able to stress out the common enough to remove it . I think @Tellycoleman did this with his Yukon with great success
Click to expand...

10-4 I appreciate you going in depth for me. Guess it's time to get some simazine, if you could send me a link to the Syngenta papers that would be great, I can't seem to find it.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Tifway256 said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tifway256 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've got a few questions @HungrySoutherner hope you don't mind! I've got an issue with common Bermuda entangled in some of my Tifway 419. I've done lots of research and this journal is about the only positive outcome I have seen without using glyphosate.
> 
> Is there a reason you used simazine?
> Could you use prodiamine instead?
> Is there anything different you would do if you had to do it again?
> Is there a specific rate you think would work best?
> 
> Hope you're having a good lawn year, love the journal man keep it up!
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so here is the honest truth. If you've got common Bermuda that has invaded 419 round up is really the best option, round up and sod cutting the section is the even better option. It's extremely difficult to try and selectively removing common or seeded common Bermuda from hybrid. It's been done but it's really hard and honestly it really depends on what percent of the lawn is invaded. If you just have some small patches then what I would do is use the tenacity + simazine combo to light up the common Bermuda so you can identify where it is and then use glyphosate x 2 applications spaced 14-21 days apart to just remove it from that area and some margin around it and grow it back in. If your yard was as invaded as mine where it's nearly 40% common invaded then you're due for a renovation. I tried real hard with that combination to get the common to die off but after 2 applications and the yard looking completely dead it all came right back. The combination of tenacity + simazine is the only way you can run it. Prodiamine is not the same as simazine , simazine helps buffer down the effects of the tenacity so it's tolerable to the hybrid. Without the simazine straight tenacity will bleach both types of Bermuda equally and so it won't tell you much. You can find the ratios of tenacity to simazine in the goosegrass paper published by syngenta. Your other option is to try almost oversuppress the common with a combo of tnex and paclo and mow it as low as the 419 will go. If you keep it super low .2" and keep running the paclo with tnex you should be able to stress out the common enough to remove it . I think @Tellycoleman did this with his Yukon with great success
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 10-4 I appreciate you going in depth for me. Guess it's time to get some simazine, if you could send me a link to the Syngenta papers that would be great, I can't seem to find it.
Click to expand...

Do not run the high rate in this paper, only run the low rate if you are going to try this and if you attempt the multiple apps space them 21 days apart and not 14. Make sure the lawn is actively growing before trying too. This is the paper I'm referring to, you don't need to have the pennant magnum they mention just the tenacity and simazine. The paper is about goose grass control, but what you are paying attention to is the application precautions where it says don't apply this to common bermuda. Happy hunting. Make sure you document your work somewhere so we can see how it works out for you. Just remember your yard will look very rough and if you don't attempt this like yesterday you may run out of growing days for the lawn to recover before winter. This paper as I found out was researched in Florida where they have much longer growing seasons and more time for recovery.https://www.greencastonline.com/ima...df7cdf-c1b0-4a94-b352-164e14c1d5ab&fTy=0&et=8


----------



## WarTide

HungrySoutherner said:


> WarTide said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungry, where'd you get your sand? I've looked at a couple of places here locally and their sand was chunky and full of pebbles. thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck. It really has been a mixed bag when it comes to the quality of the sand locally. The stars and moon have to be aligned just right. I've bought sand from Across the Pond, Reseda and Alliance. Alliance masonry sand is the best, its nice and screened but delivery with them is the deal breaker unless you want the entire dump truck load. When it comes to Across the Pond vs Reseda you never know. Across the pond tends to have very small pebbles in the mix even though they say its their landscape sand. Reseda I've had good luck and bad luck with. Last time I bought sand from them it was river sand and was full of clay and mulch, previously its been screened masonry sand so you never know what will show up. I've just had to gamble when it comes to getting sand and needing delivery. If you have a trailer and can haul it Alliance is your cheapest and best source for sand.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I called Alliance but i don't need 16 yards! Their 25 ton minimum is a bit much.

The Greenery in OXR has nice sand, if they have it. Every time I've gone by they're out.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

WarTide said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WarTide said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungry, where'd you get your sand? I've looked at a couple of places here locally and their sand was chunky and full of pebbles. thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck. It really has been a mixed bag when it comes to the quality of the sand locally. The stars and moon have to be aligned just right. I've bought sand from Across the Pond, Reseda and Alliance. Alliance masonry sand is the best, its nice and screened but delivery with them is the deal breaker unless you want the entire dump truck load. When it comes to Across the Pond vs Reseda you never know. Across the pond tends to have very small pebbles in the mix even though they say its their landscape sand. Reseda I've had good luck and bad luck with. Last time I bought sand from them it was river sand and was full of clay and mulch, previously its been screened masonry sand so you never know what will show up. I've just had to gamble when it comes to getting sand and needing delivery. If you have a trailer and can haul it Alliance is your cheapest and best source for sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks. I called Alliance but i don't need 16 yards! Their 25 ton minimum is a bit much.
> 
> The Greenery in OXR has nice sand, if they have it. Every time I've gone by they're out.
Click to expand...

The Greenery are you talking about the nursery just over the mountain? I didn't know they had sand. If its quality sand its possible they are getting it from Alliance.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Weekly update and robot drama. I should really consider following my own advice and not over feed bermuda and now I'm paying for my sins of slamming fert for 5 weeks with cooler than normal temps. The last 2 weeks temps settled in for some real bermuda growing weather, and the entire yard is extremely flush with growth in a negative way. Yes the automower is getting out everyday and doing its job, I've even bumped up the mowing times to help counter act the surge growth. I've learned a very important lesson though, PGR is still required with the Automower if you are targeting the lowest HOC which for me is currently .39". The issue with surge growth without the PGR is the grass is trying to stretch instead of staying dense with tight nodes like it does under PGR. When the mower is cutting, the stretching creates a false sense of dense turf, and it rakes those stems up and then mows them leaving spots in the lawn of pulled up grass. I've had to live with it for a week to really understand what was happening, whether it was the mower having an issue, my sand based lawn or the real issue of over fed bermuda doing its thing. In a bold desperate move I took the verti-rake to the lawn and thinned it back out and did some spot topdressing with dry sand. Now that its thinned out I've put the yard back under regulation to keep those nodes nice and tight as I ride out the residual wave of growth and will get a sense of how the mower performs with the yard under regulation. One of the other issues I'm battling is areas the mower uses to turn around in that are a little tight for it. The yard had so much sand on it the grass in those areas couldn't recover and fill back in with the mower putting down to much traffic on it. I've resigned to using some portable dog fences for now to keep the mower off them so they can heal up. I know they will be fine next year with a full stand of grass there, but with my yard being sand capped it created a problem I wasn't expecting. Lots of learning left to do about cultural practices and management with the robot in the equation. At this point in my renovation I'm extremely please with the Tifgrand, the texture and color are absolutely amazing. I resodded 30% of my backyard with it as a test and it is way outperforming the common, Tifway 328, 419 and whatever else is back there. Its growth habit is definitely slower than the 419, but what I lose in fast rapid stretching like the 419, I gain in density and better recovery from the dogs abuse to the lawn.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Just an update in the ups and downs of what I consider a poor Bermuda growing season. Front yard Tifgrand renovation is looking pretty good. I've kept it under PGR for about 4 weeks now to improve the density and color. I'm still trying to figure out how the Automower will fit into my plan for the front next year. It's doing a great job but I have a front slope to my yard that has always been tough to mow, the robot does ok on it but is aggressive when it turns on the slope and leaves me with pulled up grass and larger area to deal with on the rotary scissors. The backyard as you will see is a complete disaster and become a full on science project and learning experience. I've been battling algae in the back, and I've tried everything with little success. Once I think I have it managed and the yard dries out and turf looks rough, it rains and blooms back to the point of choking already thin grass. The other issue is my common Bermuda problem. The automower and the common Bermuda do not like each other at all. The Tifgrand and 419 have had no issues with the robot and did even better and improved density under PGR, the common under PGR doesn't get dense and low the same way. It still stretches out and doesn't tack down to the point it gets a little puffy and floppy then the automower scalps it all the way back. I've got easily defined areas of all the varieties in my backyard with patches of common everywhere. If next year is a better year for Bermuda I will be interested in seeing if the common doesn't actually starting losing the battle to the other types because the robot keeps it thinned back. I didn't experience this with a reel mower because the action of cut didn't lift the blades before cutting. Anyway take a look and see for yourself .


----------



## thompwa

WarTide said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WarTide said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hungry, where'd you get your sand? I've looked at a couple of places here locally and their sand was chunky and full of pebbles. thanks
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck. It really has been a mixed bag when it comes to the quality of the sand locally. The stars and moon have to be aligned just right. I've bought sand from Across the Pond, Reseda and Alliance. Alliance masonry sand is the best, its nice and screened but delivery with them is the deal breaker unless you want the entire dump truck load. When it comes to Across the Pond vs Reseda you never know. Across the pond tends to have very small pebbles in the mix even though they say its their landscape sand. Reseda I've had good luck and bad luck with. Last time I bought sand from them it was river sand and was full of clay and mulch, previously its been screened masonry sand so you never know what will show up. I've just had to gamble when it comes to getting sand and needing delivery. If you have a trailer and can haul it Alliance is your cheapest and best source for sand.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks. I called Alliance but i don't need 16 yards! Their 25 ton minimum is a bit much.
> 
> The Greenery in OXR has nice sand, if they have it. Every time I've gone by they're out.
Click to expand...

I called and got another load from Meridian Brick it was ~5 ton for $255. Included delivery. Ironically when they brought it they delivered in a 25 ton truck and eyeballed by 5 ton which ended up being more like 7...then took the rest to meridianville to drop. I got some bad sand with pebbles recently too...ended up piling it in the back yard. The place that delivered was out of the Russellville Sand plant which also carries USGA. You're more likely to find a truck headed to Madison county though if you use masonry.


----------



## JSC1964

I added the terrain wheels to my 430x about two weeks ago and it has made a huge difference in the turnarounds on slopes. The robot use to make a mess trying to back up and turnaround from the boundary on a slope. His wheels would spin and pull up grass which got cut off and left bare spots. Now with the new wheels he turns around without any issue. My slopes are worse than yours also.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

JSC1964 said:


> I added the terrain wheels to my 430x about two weeks ago and it has made a huge difference in the turnarounds on slopes. The robot use to make a mess trying to back up and turnaround from the boundary on a slope. His wheels would spin and pull up grass which got cut off and left bare spots. Now with the new wheels he turns around without any issue. My slopes are worse than yours also.


Yeah I'm still battling turn arounds on my front slope. Even with the traction kit I have a defined line where it hits the boundary and pulls up little tufts of grass trying to turn and move back up the slope. I haven't come up with a great solution yet. To be fair it was difficult to mow with a reel on it because it would slide off and get sideways and the rotary would tip and scalp.


----------



## JSC1964

I have a little area right in front of a flower bed that's about 30 degrees the last 3 feet so I just keep "Junior" out of that area and mow it once a week with the rotary at 1.25 so it like a "rough" cut on the golf course.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

JSC1964 said:


> I have a little area right in front of a flower bed that's about 30 degrees the last 3 feet so I just keep "Junior" out of that area and mow it once a week with the rotary at 1.25 so it like a "rough" cut on the golf course.


Same scenario but it's 50' section by 7' directly in my front yard to the street. I let the mower mow as much as possible but it still leaves a lot to deal with using the rotary scissors. It's been a pain point for years with my yard. I keep thinking about adding a hedge row or something at the bottom where the street is to reduce it. I may end up just grabbing push reel mower and giving that a go to make quick work of it


----------



## WarTide

thompwa said:


> WarTide said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. I called Alliance but i don't need 16 yards! Their 25 ton minimum is a bit much.
> 
> The Greenery in OXR has nice sand, if they have it. Every time I've gone by they're out.
> 
> 
> 
> I called and got another load from Meridian Brick it was ~5 ton for $255. Included delivery. Ironically when they brought it they delivered in a 25 ton truck and eyeballed by 5 ton which ended up being more like 7...then took the rest to meridianville to drop. I got some bad sand with pebbles recently too...ended up piling it in the back yard. The place that delivered was out of the Russellville Sand plant which also carries USGA. You're more likely to find a truck headed to Madison county though if you use masonry.
Click to expand...

Sourced 4 yds of sand and compost mix from the Greenery in Hampton Cove last Thursday. Their sand was excellent. The compost, not so much. Lots of bark. Had to screen all 4 yds and now I have a 1/2 yard of pine bark mulch. Total was $250+tax for delivery and mixing.


----------



## g-man

@HungrySoutherner How is this lawn looking?


----------



## Sbcgenii

In for 2021 updates.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> In for 2021 updates.


It's coming. I'm thinning everything out and scalping this weekend and will kick off 2021 still robot mowing. The Tifgrand is greening up faster than everything in my neighborhood


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Well it's a new year and this year I want to win the trophy for maximum gains, minimum effort. How close to autopilot can I get my lawn on. Lets recap 2020, last year I completed the front lawn renovation to Tifgrand Bermuda which involved even more sand, a ton of irrigation work to fix shady work done by the home builder and back breaking sod laying. I also did some major lawn leveling in my back yard and laid some Tifgrand to evaluate what variety will end up in the back when it gets renovated in 2022. That means my backyard now has Tifgrand, Tifway 419, Tifway 328, TifTuff (grew out sprigs from @Movingshrub lawn) and seeded common bermuda sod from a local shady farm. The only sod in the back that was intentionally placed was the Tifgrand and Tiftuff sprigs the other varieties represent how terrible builders can be about turf in yards. The big change for 2020 was the switch from the Swardman Electra to the Husqvarna 450x with the Fairway kit. I was really unsure about using the robot mower and whether it could keep the yard at 10mm. Would it be a complete fail? Surprisingly the mower turned out to work really well. I had a few things to figure out with the mower but the big test would be this year when it came time to reset the lawn and start fresh for 2021.





This year the Tifgrand was outperforming everything else in my lawn and in the neighborhood greening up really fast. The big problem I faced was how was I going to scalp. I left the yard at 10mm over the winter, and one negative side effect of the very frequent mowing of the robot mower is the turf density of the Tifgrand was way, way, way to thick. It's something I'm going to have to work through this year. I had a Greenworks electric power rake in a box for over year and decided to give it a shot on the yard to get everything thinned out and remove the dead stuff. I was actually surprised it worked pretty well, but it struggled a bit with the density. It took a while but I got the turf cleaned out enough to scalp. You'll see in the photos I marked the areas where the guide wires are for the mower as a reminder not to go crazy in those areas.



Next step was easy, time to scalp the lawn. You might be asking yourself how do you scalp the lawn with a robot mower? Well if you own the fairway kit you will notice on the 12.5 mm spacer it tells you don't run the #1 setting because it will chew up the turf at about 7mm cutting. So yeah I ran the setting at 7mm and let it scalp away and it did a pretty darn good job getting everything cut down with no intervention on my part. I just set the mower up to run chopping way for 10 hours on the whole lawn and then at the end blew out the grass and ran my push mower to bag it up and like 10 bags of grass later the lawn was good and scalped for 2021.



The game plan for this season is just to keep the mower mowing the yard at 10mm. I'm going to run a very low fertility program and PGR to improve texture. I don't really need to run PGR because the mower mows everyday, but there is nothing like the tightness of the turf you get from it. I will probably give a go with the Greenworks mid summer to thin the turf out so its not as thick going into winter like this past year. I don't plan on bring in a whole bunch of sand this year, just addressing a few low areas in the back yard. I've got some more irrigation work to do in the back and plan to finally get rid of the chainlink fence and build a privacy fence. I'm working through some retaining wall ideas because of some crazy neighbor drainage drama. My main focus this year is to really to get the backyard sorted because everything will be killed off in the back and PRG will go down for the winter to get ready for new turf next year.


----------



## seebryango

@HungrySoutherner Already giving up on the back and making plans for the winter.... sad to see


----------



## HungrySoutherner

seebryango said:


> @HungrySoutherner Already giving up on the back and making plans for the winter.... sad to see


I'm all in on the back. Just have to select the turf type I'm switching to for the resod next year. I'll have all of the prep work done this year. Tifgrand is getting harder to find so it may not be an option and sprigging the back is to hard with a small yard and dogs. If I can get Tifgrand next year that is my first choice. It will take a ton of effort to get everything killed before that happens.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Lots of rain this week. Time to set the Automower up on a regular mowing schedule. I was scalping some today because the grass had grown this week and I didn't have the robot doing it's thing. It's just going to be ugly for a few more weeks as the robot wages war with the green up


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Year 2 with the Tifgrand and its greening up nice and quick. The automower is doing its job well keeping the turf at .38" . I put out .10#n this past week with warmer temps coming to perk it up a little but not pushing growth this year. The robot mower is honestly a game changer. I did the automower and PGR last year but plan to see how things go on a very low fertility program and just the mower this year


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Sending off soil samples or in my case sand samples. I've built my entire yard on sand and top dressed heavy every year. After I put down the Tifgrand sod last year I core aerated to remove as much of the sod soil as possible and buried it in sand. At this point most of my yard is sitting on 8" or more of sand and it's all black with organic matter from root cycling. I've never added humic or organic material. The closest you would say was a few bags of greentrx I used 3 years ago. It just goes to show you don't have to add organic material or humic to soil for it to become rich in organics. Root cycling and good fertility will do it naturally.


----------



## Sbcgenii

How many years have you been putting down sand? Did the sand increase the firmness after a heavy rain. Do you core aerate every year?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> How many years have you been putting down sand? Did the sand increase the firmness after a heavy rain. Do you core aerate every year?


This is 4 years of sand , plus a little more before I laid the sod last year. You can see the newer layer of sand on top. I've core aerated 3 times but reached a point of diminishing returns with this much sand cap. I core aerated heavily the first few years to get has much sand into the red clay as possible to improve drainage. I would say it's firm but not in the same since that the red clay was firm. I don't screw around when I top dress, I make sure I bury the grass. It's just proof that you don't have to do anything special or organics to build up in the soil, if you're growing grass it will load the sand up on its own. Plus I've greatly improved drainage vs what would be occurring way underneath with the clay. I've reached a depth now with the sand that the sand is as deep as the root system.


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Not much to update. With the automower in play things are very much on autopilot with the lawn until the privacy fence project begins in a few weeks and a new border install between me and my favorite neighbor. Still keeping things at .39" no problem with the Tifgrand fully greened up. We finally got some rain this weekend , so I got my Accelypryn down to keep the armyworms out. I'm running very low fertility this year so will be interesting to see how things go with the automower and extremely low NPK. The cold spell that everyone got this past week turned the Tifgrand and little off color, but I expect it to bounce back quick with warm days ahead . This will be my last chance to experiment with all the random varieties of Bermuda in my backyard before it gets smoked and renovated in late summer. Probably going to track down some Celebration and Tahoma 31 to add to see how it compares to everything else in the backyard and I'd you are still counting it's Tifgrand, Tif419, Tif328, TifTuff and common (Gold Glove as I learned from the sod farm that grows and sells common Bermuda as Tifway 419 to builders) . I'm dead set on Tifgrand in the back if I can still get it next year but am open if one of the other varieties performs equally and can handle the dogs and shade


----------



## Sbcgenii

How does the Tiff grand compare to TifTuf in your opinion?


----------



## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> How does the Tiff grand compare to TifTuf in your opinion?


I'll know more this year. I grew out a few sq ft to plant in the shadiest worst part of my yard to compare directly to the Tifgrand. The Tifgrand greened up faster this spring in that area, but the Tiftuff was right behind the Tifgrand. I full expect the Tiftuff to grow and recover faster and spread faster than the Tifgrand even in the shady spot its planted in. The Tifgrand blessing or curse isn't as aggressive so its recovery and spread isn't as fast because its semiDwarf, but at the same time its mowing requirements are lower than other varieties and so are the fertility requirements for Tifgrand. The Tiftuff is handling the low mowing HOC at .39" even in the shade, and to be honest I think keeping TifTuff mowed lower improves its color and texture even without PGR, compared to the Tifway 419 near it that the color seems to fall off the lower you go. Tiftuff is probably my second choice for the backyard if I can't get the Tifgrand, because it handles the abuse from the dogs a little better than the Tifgrand, and since the Robot keeps it groomed, it prevents potential scalping problems that others have experienced from Tiftuff. I'm curious about Tahoma 31 and am going to definitely see how it compares but from what I've seen its not even close when it comes to the color of Tifgrand which is my favorite part. I'll lump in Celebration because it has its own unique color and shade tolerance, probably not a direction I'll go but I have the season to evaluate in case it surprises me for the backyard situation.


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## Sbcgenii

I haven't seen any of these improved variety's in real life. I am going to try and pick up some Tahoma 31 today and see how I like it. Hopefully the color is close to what I have now because I don't want to go backwards. I am also happy with my green up now. I would like a smaller leaf though. I also need improved shade tolerance in the front. I don't have a lot of shade in the front the grass just recovers slower in some areas.


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> I haven't seen any of these improved variety's in real life. I am going to try and pick up some Tahoma 31 today and see how I like it. Hopefully the color is close to what I have now because I don't want to go backwards. I am also happy with my green up now. I would like a smaller leaf though. I also need improved shade tolerance in the front. I don't have a lot of shade in the front the grass just recovers slower in some areas.


The only caution I would have around that is just the outcome of having two textures and colors of Bermuda in your front yard. My yard was contaminated from day one when the builder put low quality sod on my new construction that had Tifway 419 and Common bermuda. I did my best to try and selectively remove the common but it was just to hard and to much mixed in. When I did some landscaping work in my backyard I once again got sod that was sold as Tifway 419, that turned out to be Tifway 328 so then I had 3 varieties in my backyard. By that point I knew that renovating the front and back were going to happen in phases it gave me an chance to spend some time evaluating my options so I added the tifgrand and tiftuff last year and will have the remainder of this season to experiment more before killing it all and selecting a mono stand again. Just know what you are getting into if you mix in a different variety because there really won't be any going back depending on if it spreads into the rest of the yard. It will make your lawn look like a zebra of color.


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## Sbcgenii

My yard is already mixed so I was just going to see how I liked it.


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## HungrySoutherner

Sbcgenii said:


> My yard is already mixed so I was just going to see how I liked it.


Go for it. Best way to figure out which turf works best.


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## HungrySoutherner

I don't talk much about the backyard situation. It's been like a bad unintended science experiment with the mixture of Bermuda types sense I bought the house. The same situation with contaminated Bermuda I had in the front is only worse in the back and so I ran with it and now have TifGrand, 419, 328, common seeded from a farm and some Tiftuff. Next summer I'll renovate it all to Tifgrand all though Tiftuff is still on the table. This summer I needed to address grade and erosion problems before that can occur and needed to address the fence situation and get a privacy fence built. This past week we had a local company come build a privacy fence for us and it turned into 4 days of a complete nightmare. One side of the yard between me and one neighbor is a complicated affair 

The neighbor attempted to resolve what he perceived has a drainage problem from my property by adding a 3 foot tall concrete wall about 8" off the property line. To make matters worse he digs out between the fence and wall to try and create a path for water to escape his property out the back, but this cause my yard to constantly wash out underneath the fence. When the privacy fence went in the plan was always to add lumber on the back side of the fence to prevent this from occurring. The fence company struggled to get the fence straight, level and or slopped correctly. Before day 2 of fencing was done the owner told the crew to shut it down and on Friday 80% of the fence was torn down and we started over. The company owner and I gave a 3 hour clinic with guys building the fence on how levels work, strings and how to build a fence on a slope. We were all tired and frustrated. Typically the guys build fences that just follow the terrain and use a jig to lay the pickets , but that falls apart when you are doing what I'm doing . By Friday we got the fence built, but yesterday when the rain started I realized the portion of the fence near my neighbors wall isn't going to hold up. I warned them that the posts needed to be nearly 3 ft deep because the top 8-10" of turf is sand. When the rain came the concrete was washing out and the problem is apparent. Not sure what the next step will be from here. To add insult to injury the guys spilled gas all over the lawn in the back using a gas powered air compressor killing the grass. I lost this round.


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## thompwa

Wait I thought sand turned clay soil into concrete???&#129300;


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## HungrySoutherner

thompwa said:


> Wait I thought sand turned clay soil into concrete???🤔


In this particular case I wish it did. I've got a leaning fence that says otherwise.


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## Broad St Bagman

HungrySoutherner said:


> One side of the yard between me and one neighbor is a complicated affair


That stinks. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're on the right side of history considering that you still gave him the "good" side of the fence.


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## HungrySoutherner

Broad St Bagman said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> One side of the yard between me and one neighbor is a complicated affair
> 
> 
> 
> That stinks. I'm going to go out on a limb and say you're on the right side of history considering that you still gave him the "good" side of the fence.
Click to expand...

Yeah we went with putting the good side out to make working behind the fence easier, especially down near the posts. Who knows if that was smart or not.


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## Jagermeister

HungrySoutherner said:


> Tifway256 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok so here is the honest truth. If you've got common Bermuda that has invaded 419 round up is really the best option, round up and sod cutting the section is the even better option. It's extremely difficult to try and selectively removing common or seeded common Bermuda from hybrid. It's been done but it's really hard and honestly it really depends on what percent of the lawn is invaded. If you just have some small patches then what I would do is use the tenacity + simazine combo to light up the common Bermuda so you can identify where it is and then use glyphosate x 2 applications spaced 14-21 days apart to just remove it from that area and some margin around it and grow it back in. If your yard was as invaded as mine where it's nearly 40% common invaded then you're due for a renovation. I tried real hard with that combination to get the common to die off but after 2 applications and the yard looking completely dead it all came right back. The combination of tenacity + simazine is the only way you can run it. Prodiamine is not the same as simazine , simazine helps buffer down the effects of the tenacity so it's tolerable to the hybrid. Without the simazine straight tenacity will bleach both types of Bermuda equally and so it won't tell you much. You can find the ratios of tenacity to simazine in the goosegrass paper published by syngenta. Your other option is to try almost oversuppress the common with a combo of tnex and paclo and mow it as low as the 419 will go. If you keep it super low .2" and keep running the paclo with tnex you should be able to stress out the common enough to remove it . I think @Tellycoleman did this with his Yukon with great success
> 
> 
> 
> 10-4 I appreciate you going in depth for me. Guess it's time to get some simazine, if you could send me a link to the Syngenta papers that would be great, I can't seem to find it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do not run the high rate in this paper, only run the low rate if you are going to try this and if you attempt the multiple apps space them 21 days apart and not 14. Make sure the lawn is actively growing before trying too. This is the paper I'm referring to, you don't need to have the pennant magnum they mention just the tenacity and simazine. The paper is about goose grass control, but what you are paying attention to is the application precautions where it says don't apply this to common bermuda. Happy hunting. Make sure you document your work somewhere so we can see how it works out for you. Just remember your yard will look very rough and if you don't attempt this like yesterday you may run out of growing days for the lawn to recover before winter. This paper as I found out was researched in Florida where they have much longer growing seasons and more time for recovery.https://www.greencastonline.com/ima...df7cdf-c1b0-4a94-b352-164e14c1d5ab&fTy=0&et=8
Click to expand...

@HungrySoutherner I am having a goosegrass outbreak and can't seem to get it under control, esp in the thin areas. Did you ever try the Sygenta plan? How did it work out and how much damage did you do to the bermuda? How long for recovery?


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## HungrySoutherner

Jagermeister said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tifway256 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 10-4 I appreciate you going in depth for me. Guess it's time to get some simazine, if you could send me a link to the Syngenta papers that would be great, I can't seem to find it.
> 
> 
> 
> Do not run the high rate in this paper, only run the low rate if you are going to try this and if you attempt the multiple apps space them 21 days apart and not 14. Make sure the lawn is actively growing before trying too. This is the paper I'm referring to, you don't need to have the pennant magnum they mention just the tenacity and simazine. The paper is about goose grass control, but what you are paying attention to is the application precautions where it says don't apply this to common bermuda. Happy hunting. Make sure you document your work somewhere so we can see how it works out for you. Just remember your yard will look very rough and if you don't attempt this like yesterday you may run out of growing days for the lawn to recover before winter. This paper as I found out was researched in Florida where they have much longer growing seasons and more time for recovery.https://www.greencastonline.com/ima...df7cdf-c1b0-4a94-b352-164e14c1d5ab&fTy=0&et=8
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @HungrySoutherner I am having a goosegrass outbreak and can't seem to get it under control, esp in the thin areas. Did you ever try the Sygenta plan? How did it work out and how much damage did you do to the bermuda? How long for recovery?
Click to expand...

The Bermuda recovered fine from the application as long as you know that your type is Hybrid bermuda similar to Tifway. You're mileage may vary, but as spot treatment the damage should be relatively minimal and will grow out in ~14 days to the surrounding grass.


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## Jagermeister

@HungrySoutherner I was finally able to get my tenacity plus simazine and spot spray it today! How long does it take for it to start bleaching the goosegrass? Do you think I will need a second app or will it kill in one?


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## HungrySoutherner

Jagermeister said:


> @HungrySoutherner I was finally able to get my tenacity plus simazine and spot spray it today! How long does it take for it to start bleaching the goosegrass? Do you think I will need a second app or will it kill in one?


You should see some action within a few days.


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## Jagermeister

HungrySoutherner said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> @HungrySoutherner I was finally able to get my tenacity plus simazine and spot spray it today! How long does it take for it to start bleaching the goosegrass? Do you think I will need a second app or will it kill in one?
> 
> 
> 
> You should see some action within a few days.
Click to expand...

I sprayed on Sunday afternoon and still don't see any bleaching on the goose grass or even the bermuda. Shouldn't I be seeing something by now? I did the low rate of the tenacity 5 oz / A and high rate of simazine 25 oz / A. Converted this for 2 gallons for spot spraying.


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## HungrySoutherner

Jagermeister said:


> HungrySoutherner said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> @HungrySoutherner I was finally able to get my tenacity plus simazine and spot spray it today! How long does it take for it to start bleaching the goosegrass? Do you think I will need a second app or will it kill in one?
> 
> 
> 
> You should see some action within a few days.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I sprayed on Sunday afternoon and still don't see any bleaching on the goose grass or even the bermuda. Shouldn't I be seeing something by now? I did the low rate of the tenacity 5 oz / A and high rate of simazine 25 oz / A. Converted this for 2 gallons for spot spraying.
Click to expand...

I would just be patient. You should be reapplying at 14 days either way if its not totally dead. Just give it some time depending on moisture and temps I can be quicker or slower. You are at the mercy of the plant


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## Jagermeister

:thumbup:


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## Highlife159

Were you ever able to get ahold of any celebration to see how you liked it compared to everything else?


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## HungrySoutherner

Highlife159 said:


> Were you ever able to get ahold of any celebration to see how you liked it compared to everything else?


I was but compared to the texture, color and growth habit of the Tifgrand I'm going to stick with it.


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## Jagermeister

@HungrySoutherner How did your autopilot experiment go this year with low NPK and the automower? Any overall thoughts and then any changes for 2022? I want to go this route as well.

I have several sections I need to fill in and other sections that are really thick. I plan to try and sprig and more heavily fertilize the bare, thin sections and not use PGR or root pruning pre ems there. The thick sections would get full pre em, PGR, lower NPK. I am also contemplating the automower.


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## HungrySoutherner

Jagermeister said:


> @HungrySoutherner How did your autopilot experiment go this year with low NPK and the automower? Any overall thoughts and then any changes for 2022? I want to go this route as well.
> 
> I have several sections I need to fill in and other sections that are really thick. I plan to try and sprig and more heavily fertilize the bare, thin sections and not use PGR or root pruning pre ems there. The thick sections would get full pre em, PGR, lower NPK. I am also contemplating the automower.


Things went really well. By far the least amount of input into my turf and time spent in the yard for positive outputs and overall turf health. I monkeyed around a good but with PGR rates and the robot which proved an excellent combo on Tifgrand once it was all dialed in. I reeled mow for about a month at the end of the season so I could monitor clipping volume dialing in PGR but was barely collecting anything mowing once a week . I'm renovating my backyard next year so having the system on autopilot will help


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