# Rebuilding lawn in PA



## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

We moved into a new house in Lehigh Valley Pennsylvania in April. Builder hydroseeded and we followed all watering instructions but the lawn died and the property was overrun with primarily barnyard (purple base stem) but also other weeds.

I want to have a nice lawn for next season. I can do the work myself, but would like some guidance as to steps to take now and in the spring. It's all sun, no shade or trees on the lot as yet, 1/4 acre so not huge. How do I prevent the weeds from coming back and set up for a nice lawn next year?


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

Take a look at the cool season guide (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595)

Basically, you need to use a pre-emergent (with Mesotrione or Tupersan) next year while seeding, then following year when you don't seed you use another pre-emergent to keep weeds at bay while feeding the lawn in general.


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

saidtheblueknight said:


> Take a look at the cool season guide (https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1595)
> 
> Basically, you need to use a pre-emergent (with Mesotrione or Tupersan) this year while seeding, then next year when you don't seed you use another pre-emergent to keep weeds at bay while feeding the lawn in general.


Thanks! I'll print off and read the guide tonight when I'm home. Is it too late now, mid-Nov, to put that pre-emergent down and seed though? We're in a cold snap right now.


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

Sorry I clarified my post, by this year I mean the upcoming growing season eg. spring 2020. I'm already in the mindset for that, although technically it is "next" year.

Yes it's way to late for seed and pre-em, so this should all be starting in the spring based on your specific location.


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

I read through the guide and thanks for your clarification. Should I at least put down 1 lb of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft (Ammonia Sulfate 21-0-0) now?

In the spring, would the steps be to do the Pre-Emergent (Quinclorac. Mesotrione. Topramezone since a lot of barnyard grass), then aerate, then put down new seed,? Or not aerate, since that will break the pre-emergent layer? When should I do those and how much time-wise to space them out?

The lawn currently is lots of weed, but shows the grass starting to grow back, I guess it was dormant. It's a light covering now.

Thanks for your help.


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

If there's not much grass now, there's little point in putting down fert. If you have more than 50% good grass coverage, then yes.

Aerate, fertilize then throw down seed and water, water, water. All can be done on the same day. The guide should mention something about pre-emergent and seeding, I haven't read it in a while. But basically you want to start doing this right around when soil temps get to ~50*. That is when seeds start germinating, both grass and weeds. Use this tool to get a good historical view on when this might happen in your area, but it's a good idea to invest in a soil thermometer.

http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

Also, after 60 or so days from when you overseed you should also throw down another round of pre-emergent, this time a more permanent one like prodiamine (unless you plan on overseeding again in the fall).


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Seed selection was not mentioned, so I'll pipe up with some. Since you're trying for a spring seeding to have something for the summer, your short term goals will be different than your long term goals, so I'll break it out that way. With your lawn having a high percentage of weeds, it sounds like a fall reno (or at least a heavy overseed) is in your future.

Spring seeding is difficult, but can be done. You will need to have some type of irrigation to have the best possible change of succeess. If you don't have an inground system, you can put together a DIY system. I built my 'poor man's system' 15+ years ago. There are plenty of folks with journals on TLF and YouTube to do your homework and acquire the supplies over the winter.

For spring season, Perennial Ryegrass will be your best bet for quick germination and establishment. However, it doesn't like mega heat, so be prepared for a little extra TLC and some die off in August. Most turf suppliers have Tri-Rye mixes in their standard offerings. The timing mentioned in the posts above is good. I would also suggest a dormant seeding with some (not tons, save most for fall) bluegrass. Dropping some kbg towards the end of February will increase your chances of establishing it before the summer heat. If you're able to get it germinated before you drop your spring rye seed with Tenacity, that would be best. Rye doesn't like the extreme cold, so I wouldn't drop it that early (although, I might try a little spot seeding with it this winter, to test).

In short, I would suggest 80%-90% PRG in the spring and 80%-90% kbg or TTTF for fall (late summer seeding). This way, you hedge your bets, to get something up for the summer. Once you see how it looks mid-summer, that will influence your decision on a fall seeding or reno. Also, if you get a few days of a warm spell this week (50's), you may be able to spray some WBG or CCO, as a last shot to take out some weeds. We're expecting some days in that range this week, so I might try some spraying.

Check out NTEP for the best seed varieties for your area. PSU and Rutgers locations will probably be the best to reference. Online seed suppliers can make custom mixes and sell straight varieties that you can mix or drop separately, as needed for your purposes.


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

Thanks for the informative post, Chris! You lost me a little on some of the abbreviations though. I can make out most of them, KBG, PRG. Tomorrow (tues) and Weds are supposted to be mid-50's so I'll check into the weed-b-gone and chickweed, clover, oaxis stuff. I'd like to take out some weeds if possible. I tried the NTEP site but got lost there trying to find good seed varieties for my area (Lower Nazareth, PA).

It's ok to drop kbg toward the end of Feb even though it's cold? Someone said elsewhere to store the seed in the garage where it's cold, so it's acclimated, then drop it around that time, even if I have to drop it on top of snow to let it settle and have moisture (will the birds feast?). Is that good advice? Thanks again.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Diver4242 said:


> Thanks for the informative post, Chris! You lost me a little on some of the abbreviations though. I can make out most of them, KBG, PRG. Tomorrow (tues) and Weds are supposted to be mid-50's so I'll check into the weed-b-gone and chickweed, clover, oaxis stuff. I'd like to take out some weeds if possible. I tried the NTEP site but got lost there trying to find good seed varieties for my area (Lower Nazareth, PA).
> 
> It's ok to drop kbg toward the end of Feb even though it's cold? Someone said elsewhere to store the seed in the garage where it's cold, so it's acclimated, then drop it around that time, even if I have to drop it on top of snow to let it settle and have moisture (will the birds feast?). Is that good advice? Thanks again.


Sorry I lost you on some of the abbreviations. I'll be happy to clarify any of them, just ask.

It can be information overload when trying to navigate the NTEP reports the first few times. It's probably best to download the entire report for each variety, and slowly go through them. Not to push any particular seed supplier, but Seed Super Store (SSS) has user friendly charts with the NTEP info for their offerings. Their supply is typically low at the end of the year, so you will probably need to wait until January for some better comparisons, when their 2020 batch is available. However, it's worth checking out to familiarize yourself with the site. Also, try some of the older studies on NTEP. The newest studies sometimes don't have many that are available on the commercial market, as the are experimental cultivars that haven't been named yet.

Timing the seed drop towards the end of February gets it down early enough to take advantage of Mother Nature's time clock for germination when the conditions are favorable, but helps avoid an abnormal early warm up and cold snap that would kill it off (say January, when coldest temperatures of the year occur).

I store my seed in the freezer, in heavy duty zip lock bags with the air squeezed out, but that's my preference. It's an old landscaper's trick which supposedly splits the seed husk to speed up germination. I would think seed on top of snow would be a feast for the birds, so I don't do it. I prefer on bare ground so the freeze thaw cycle will help work the seed into the soil, when cracks/fissures occur. Also, I think it would reduce chances of premature germination with limiting moisture, since the water is in solid form. Late winter snow cover after the seed down probably acts as an insulator and later source of moisture when germination occurs, but I'm not an expert. There are dormant seeding studies and lectures available if you search on TLF or Google it.


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

Thanks, Chris,

Super Seed Store recommends the below seed for my zip code. Would this be good for middle-Pennsylvania and overseeding a pretty sparse lawn? It seems like a lot of KBG, although percentages aren't shown. Lawn is all sun, no trees.

SS5000 Sunny Mixture produces a beautiful lawn wherever bluegrass is adapted and where the site receives more than 4 hours of direct sun daily. Contains the following superior elite varieties: 
Everest bluegrass is a beautiful green variety that performs well in the sun as well as the shade.
Midnight is one of the most beautiful bluegrasses ever bred. Year after year it is at the top of the bluegrass trials for overall appearance. We use certified Midnight Kentucky bluegrass in our mixtures and blends.
Bewitched: This dark green variety has excellent turf quality and shade tolerance.
Radar chewings fescue gives this mix rapid spring green-up and superior turfgrass quality.
Grand Slam GLD perennial ryegrass is #1 in the Northeast.

I'll shoot for late-feb to seed then, and not over snow. When would I put down the pre-emergent (Tenacity?) to avoid all the weeds and barnyard grass we had this year? I already did two waves of spot-treating them with WBG (first wave) and then a later wave a week or two later with CCO (tricopr) and they look like toast right now.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

They're all good cultivars, and a good option if you don't want to buy multiple types of seed separately. All three kbg rate high for the University Park location (PSU) on the 2005 test.  If you click on the "Seed Analysis Label" on the SSS site, you will see the percentages. They're approximately: 60% kbg, 20% chewings fescue and 20% PRG.

Timing with a dormant seeding can be a little tricky when looking to use with Tenacity. It's probably too cold to apply in Feb., but you want as much of the seed to have a few weeks of growth before applying it (label has the time-I think 30 days after germination). If you dormant seed, I would put some seed down in the worst areas, and then try a full spring overseed in mid-April with Tenacity at seed down (if seed cost is not an issue, make it a heavier amount for the dormant seed and overseed everything at that time). If it's too much $$$ for that amount of seed or the timing doesn't work for you, skipping the dormant seed and going with a full spring overseed with Tenacity in late March/early April is another option. Spring seeding is tough, so extra seed is kind of like insurance. If you dormant and spring seed, don't disturb the soil when you apply the second round of seed, just spread it on top and cover with peat moss. Also, read up as much as you can in the Cool Season guide and go through a bunch of journals on TLF over the winter, to see what other folks have done.

You should be able to get something decent going for the summer. Another app of Tenacity after the April germination window passes would help with weed preM-postM control. Then maybe some postM control with WBG and CCO before summer heat hits, while you figure out what you're doing for the fall (based upon what you see).


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

Following up here (I'm the OP). It's Feb, and we've got a run of warmer days coming here in Lehigh Valley area of PA. 50's Mon/Tues then 40's for a few days. Should I put the overseed down now? I guess that might be bad since it might start to germinate? Chris had said above to think about doing it late Feb.


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## sean_h (Jan 31, 2020)

Preemergent (Dimension or Barricade) in the early spring to stop new weeds, fertilize the existing grass (if there is any) in late-spring, post-emergent to kill your existing/new weeds through the summer...

Then, do this to your whole lawn in the early fall (around Labor Day): https://youtu.be/ui2qnOUj6Ec

I would seriously consider the compost top dressing, as well, since builders aren't exactly know for prioritizing good soil structure when they do the final grading and try and put in a lawn.

Also need to mow, mow, mow, throughout the growing season (except when the baby grass pops up during your renovation project) with a good mower and sharp blade to encourage growth.


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

Hi Sean, thanks for the reply. It's a little more complicated in my case. We had a 'builder' lawn hydro-sprayed on last spring. It was coming in nice, we were diligent about watering, but that one bad hot streak we had wiped it out mid-summer. Then the weeds too over and were pretty much all you could see. So I don't know if that seed is coming back or was just dormant. I'm sure it was crap seed. I missed the boat and didn't re-seed in fall, I hadn't found this forum yet and thought logically spring would be best (wrong!). So I may be starting from scratch with mostly new seed, if the prior seed is dead. In that case, I don't think I should do pre-emergent when I need to put down new seed. If you read through the thread, the suggestions were to maybe get the seed down in late Feb, let winter protect it until spring, let it take, then do Tenacity later on.


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## sean_h (Jan 31, 2020)

Yeah I read through the posts... I would wait until fall, I've never had luck with spring seeding... not enough time For the grass to germinate, establish, and harden before the summer heat/humidity sets in. I'm in the Midwest, so it gets a lot hotter here (I'm originally from PA and miss the relatively temperate summers)... but sounds like you have heat problems, too. I don't have watering/irrigation, so you may have luck with spring seeding if you do. Good luck!


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

I went by Northampton Seed Company, which is very close to my house, and the guy there recommended the below. Is this viable? It's quite a bit different from the SS500 Sunny Mix that SuperSeedStore came up with based on my zip code 18064. The guy at Northampton said this was better because it has deeper roots, esp for a spring overseed. Their grass mixes are at https://www.northamptonseed.com/grass-seed

Swale Lawn Seed Mixture

70% Fine Textured Tall Fescue,
30% Fine Leaf Perennial Ryegrass


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I checked the link out, but the "Swale Lawn" mix title wasn't a link to what cultivars they use. I would ask to see the seed tag to see what's inside (including "weed" or "other crop"), and take a photo. This way, you know what you're working with.

The 70/30 mix isn't a bad idea, to get you something for the summer, considering the predicament you are in. I think this would help avoid a summer mud bath. I do strongly suggest that this is a temporary solution, and that you should plan a fall reno with scrutinizing the fall seed selection much more closely for NTEP rated cultivars with no "weed" or "other crop" listed on the tag.


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## dacoyne (May 27, 2018)

I used that Super Seedstore blend you mentioned and am in PA. This was after a fall reno the next spring. 




Good luck!


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## Diver4242 (Nov 14, 2019)

Chris LI said:


> I checked the link out, but the "Swale Lawn" mix title wasn't a link to what cultivars they use. I would ask to see the seed tag to see what's inside (including "weed" or "other crop"), and take a photo. This way, you know what you're working with.
> 
> The 70/30 mix isn't a bad idea, to get you something for the summer, considering the predicament you are in. I think this would help avoid a summer mud bath. I do strongly suggest that this is a temporary solution, and that you should plan a fall reno with scrutinizing the fall seed selection much more closely for NTEP rated cultivars with no "weed" or "other crop" listed on the tag.


Thanks Chris. I guess the term "swale" scares me a little. This is my lawn, not a swale  Is a swale mix appropriate and what's special about a "swale mix"? I'll go there today and get a photo of the label. Thanks!


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