# The Nuclear Option



## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Hello all!

First time here. My wife and I moved into our first house last fall and all of the landscaping had been severely neglected. 
I tried to spread some soil and reseed in the fall but didn't have much luck. So, I've decided to start fresh and write it up.

A few before pics:





Planning all winter I decided to till everything under, level it out, spread some compost, and reseed.

Now that the ground thawed its time to get to work.

Bit of starter fluid and an almost 50 year old tiller started up


...and this is as far as I got before the engine exploded



but not before managing to cut my cable. <1" below the surface



More to come once the Tiller is repaired


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Welcome to TLF. Are you in south bend Indiana?

You side yard looks fairly bad. Normally we recommend against a spring Reno. The summer heat and the weeds make it tough for the lawn to establish. You do have a smallish lawn at 2500sqft. Come up with a plan to keep it watered thru the summer.

We also don't recommend tillering, it just doesn't help. It also makes the lawn bumpy if you don't roll it flaten It. Round up for a few weeks is best. It really makes sure you kill all the weeds at the root.

Do you have seed selected?

Edit: also, call 811. It is free and could save you some headaches.


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> but not before managing to cut my cable. <1" below the surface.


This will be a fun thread to follow. Time to start drinking. Heavily. :lol:


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

g-man said:


> Welcome to TLF. Are you in south bend Indiana?
> 
> You side yard looks fairly bad. Normally we recommend against a spring Reno. The summer heat and the weeds make it tough for the lawn to establish. You do have a smallish lawn at 2500sqft. Come up with a plan to keep it watered thru the summer.
> 
> ...


Yup! South Bend, Indiana

i have a sprinkler system on a timer that should keep the lawn well watered. It also doesn't really get warm here until July most years. I thought of waiting till fall but got excited when it got warm for a couple days so i decided to do something about it.

I can see where that recommendation comes from...now. Its gonna take quite a few passes and a lot of raking. luckily its a small yard.

Picked up a TTTF mix and plan on trying that out.

811 came out and marked before I started. Apparently Comcast doesn't bother to report where they have lines buried.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I've got the exact same tiller. Those things are a hoss, and would drive through a building if i lost control (which isn't that hard with these...) Reverse on it with the tines going scares me to death!


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Got the engine off the old tiller


I borrowed a friend's front tine tiller and only really managed to dig holes. Doesn't have the power and leveling ability of the rear tine tiller and I find it to be way harder to control.



LawnNerd said:


> I've got the exact same tiller. Those things are a hoss, and would drive through a building if i lost control (which isn't that hard with these...) Reverse on it with the tines going scares me to death!


Luckily my reverse doesn't work so I don't have to worry about that.

In the meantime I picked up everything else I need for spring lawn care:





truck load of compost from the city, peat moss, 2 bags milorganite, starter fert with preemergent, grub-ex, and some tall fescue seed.

Also got the cable reburied at a reasonable depth, only after half a dozen calls (and some whiskey and cards) to Comcast to convince them the ground wasn't frozen... It's not thats how the cable got cut :evil: .

New tiller engine and more leveling work to come...


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> OnyxsLawn said:
> 
> 
> > but not before managing to cut my cable. <1" below the surface.
> ...


:lol: Not holding back on the new guy, are you @BXMurphy.

@OnyxsLawn If you can procure a drag mat, or a pallet to drag around before you seed, and try to get as smooth a bed as you can before you put the seed down, you'll have a much easier time on down the road. Renting a roller will help out too. It would also be prudent to spray down the area with RoundUp, since it only kills plants via foliar contact. You're ok to seed after spraying. It'll just hedge your bets on making sure that the new seedlings don't have to compete with as many weeds during germination. If it was me, I'd be spraying everything you plan to till, and then wait for whatever pops up a week later, and spray again.

FWIW, most spring seedings see about a 30% success rate. Plan on doing another overseeding come fall. You'll be in fine shape this time next year!


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## BXMurphy (Aug 5, 2017)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Not holding back on the new guy, are you @BXMurphy.


Gee, I don't know about that. Aren't you in the farm belt? I figger you should at least be able to do we grow some grass.

Does anybody remember the new guy last year who had a hard time keeping peat moss wet? Now THAT was epic... it was a great thread to follow.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

BXMurphy said:


> OnyxsLawn said:
> 
> 
> > but not before managing to cut my cable. <1" below the surface.
> ...


That happened to us during sprinkler installation. You'd think they would bury those things deeper than a few inches.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@OnyxsLawn 
1. Your thread title is absolutely awesome.
2. I trust you've heard Colonel K0rn's and g-man's precautions about spring seeding. It looks like you are a man with a plan and are just looking to get things rockin' this spring. I would just mind your expectations and hope for the best.
3. That truckload of compost is beautful.
4. Any idea what went wrong with the fall reseed?


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Colonel K0rn said:


> BXMurphy said:
> 
> 
> > OnyxsLawn said:
> ...


I've got a drag mat I made to for leveling and preparing the surface that i'm going to give a shot. 
I don't think i want to roll it right now as thats just going to compact everything back down. 
I was trying to avoid roundup but after seeing whats left from a couple tilling passes i think i will.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Green said:


> BXMurphy said:
> 
> 
> > OnyxsLawn said:
> ...


You'd think! it was like pulling teeth to get them to bury it even down to 6-8". I was pretty sure the guys they sent out were gonna murder me for bugging them constantly.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

social port said:


> @OnyxsLawn
> 1. Your thread title is absolutely awesome.
> 2. I trust you've heard Colonel K0rn's and g-man's precautions about spring seeding. It looks like you are a man with a plan and are just looking to get things rockin' this spring. I would just mind your expectations and hope for the best.
> 3. That truckload of compost is beautful.
> 4. Any idea what went wrong with the fall reseed?


1. Thanks! try to keep things interesting
2. Yeah im hoping for the best but if everything goes to hell i may just end up getting some sod so the dogs are happy again. 
3. Not too bad for $4! The city gives it away for free if you shovel it yourself. or for $4 they'll dump a full bucket (~6 yds) on the back of whatever you show up in and whatever sticks, you take(~2 yards)
4. not overly confident but im pretty sure it was a lack of prep on my part (poor seed to soil contact) and not cutting the existing grass short enough (lawn was so bumpy i kept hitting dirt with the blade so i just raised it). the areas where I threw down compost came up very well but didn't fill in much any where else.


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## M_GEEZY MW (Apr 6, 2018)

Green said:


> BXMurphy said:
> 
> 
> > OnyxsLawn said:
> ...


Sprinkler installation.... I am thinking about doing that this year. I have hesitations thinking about cutting into the water main, back-flow preventer and tunneling under my driveway to get the side yard. I think irrigation is my biggest weakness when it comes to my lawn. Any advice? (new guy here to the TLF)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@OnyxsLawn be careful with city compost. Sometimes it doesnt get hot enough to kill all the weeds in it. Do they provide compost testing results?


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@g-man they say this on their website:
"South Bend Community Kompost is currently enrolled in the U. S. Composting Council Seal of Testing Assurance Program (STA)." and that they test it frequently. sounds good enough for me


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Bought a new 6.5hp engine at harbor freight for $120. turns out it bolts right up and only needed a new crank bolt and some spacers.



Fired right up now time to get back to work in the yard.

Made 5 passes with the tiller and got the soil nicely pulverized. Tried to use my drag but didnt get very good results other than smashing down the dirt under the tractor wheels.



I decided to do a section by hand and see how hard it was and how its turned out.



I got it nice and level and pretty evenly packed down so hopefully it stays level. not sure if i want to leave the compost as a top soil layer of till it in.

Unfortunately we got more snow this week so not getting a lot done right now.


Hopefully the weather clears up a bit so I can get some more work done this weekend.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would till in the compost.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> @g-man they say this on their website:
> "South Bend Community Kompost is currently enrolled in the U. S. Composting Council Seal of Testing Assurance Program (STA)." and that they test it frequently. sounds good enough for me


I googled, and found the testing information on their website. The analysis is chemical only, with no mention of seeds.

https://compostingcouncil.org/seal-of-testing-assurance/


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Sinclair said:


> OnyxsLawn said:
> 
> 
> > @g-man they say this on their website:
> ...


It looks like they test for pathogens (specifically salmonella) which is typically killed off safely around 150F which should be more than enough to sterilize weed seeds


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Should be done with the leveling and smoothing today. Here's the question:
we're supposed to get a bit of snow overnight but then temps will be up in the 60s-70 by later in the week. Should I throw seed down tonight and let the snow press it down or will the cold damage the seed and delay germination?
Also should grub-ex go down with the seed? i've seen quite a few come up while tilling.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In my opinion, you could drop the seed. As long as it has germinated, snow/ice/Frost is not a problem.

Make sure you press the seeds into the soil. Ideally with a roller.

I would drop grub ex too. Check the label to ensure no damage to seeds, but I don't think there is.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Temps were at least above freezing this weekend so I got a lot done

first task was to spread compost and level and smooth everything. 
got everything pretty level but it was still pretty bumpy from all the small chunks of sod that didn't get cut up completely.
the only way i could find to get it smooth was to rake the whole yard and pick up the bits of grass by hand. classic case of working harder not smarter.



if anyone is thinking of tilling their yard up. Don't unless you've got a pto driven tiller its really hard to get a smooth finish. learn from my mistakes... or just listen to those here with more experience.

regardless i got it smooth enough and threw down the seed, tamped it in with the head of a rake, and covered it in peat moss and starter fert.





Now all I have to do is set up the sprinklers after the snow tonight.

Time to sit back and drink some whiskey.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Nice job! I bet you were surprised at how many shades of skin tone darker you got when you were spreading that peat moss, and how much you found in your shoes after you were done.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Nice job! I bet you were surprised at how many shades of skin tone darker you got when you were spreading that peat moss, and how much you found in your shoes after you were done.


I can handle the it on the skin and clothes. Its how much I blew out of my nose that really got me.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> > Nice job! I bet you were surprised at how many shades of skin tone darker you got when you were spreading that peat moss, and how much you found in your shoes after you were done.
> ...


 :lol: Almost as bad as I got when I did the total kill and removal of dead material on my lot last year.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Colonel K0rn

Well there is the silver lining of yard work when its 35 out... no problems with bundling up.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Had some left over seed so i decided to throw down some extra in a box to grow some patches to fill the bare spots.



looks like we're going to get rain everyday for the next couple but I decided to break out my sprinkler-system-in-a-box anyways for when it does dry out.



Now that there is nothing left to do in the back yard, I moved on to the front

Broke out for the mower for the first time this year. Sharpened the blade. Also an impact driver is a great tool to have to remove blades. much better than using a wrench and grabbing the blade with your hand.

Not much growth to mow but it did work to get the leaves up.



Starting to green up a bit but some spots look pretty bad and will need attention this fall



Going to do a bit of leveling tomorrow and spray some broadleaf weeds that are coming up.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I noticed this morning after the rain that there are some areas that aren't very well covered in peat moss. Is the seed fine exposed (its pressed into the soil) or should I add a little more peat moss over those areas?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

I like the self named sprinkler system in a box...

You should market that.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@kolbasz :lol: if it was anymore than the cheapest system I could put together, maybe. It gets the job done anyways.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

now that 4th winter is finally over I was able to get back into the yard to fix some problems. soil temp is almost high enough to germinate!



I spot brushed some grass and a couple weeds that came up with glyphosate. I figured that any seedlings that came up in the 2 days of warmth we had would've died in the snow anyways.

Spread some seed in the patches that needed some more and covered some other patches up with compost. 
Now time to sit back and pray for some warm weather finally. The dogs would really like some grass again


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Be patient. I seeded an area where I had a tree removed and the stump grounded (grinded??) and it took 4 weeks to germinate. Then last week it finally popped up.

Keep the soil moist but don't over water, and those little babies will be up before you know it.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> Be patient. I seeded an area where I had a tree removed and the stump grounded (grinded??) and it took 4 weeks to germinate. Then last week it finally popped up.
> 
> Keep the soil moist but don't over water, and those little babies will be up before you know it.


yard work is easy. patience is hard.

After reading some other posts on spring seeding it seems like watering will be a balancing act. trying to keep the roots wet and growing without having the leaves wet all the time. my plan is to keep fungicide on hand in case of an outbreak, maintain morning waterings throughout the summer, and break out the blower to dry up the leaves if necessary to keep the seedlings happy and healthy.

I've read some contradictory info on using N to push growth into summer (late May into June for us) for seedlings. anyone here have experience or thoughts on heavy spring nitrogen causing fungus problems down the line?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Jconnelly6b said:


> Be patient. I seeded an area where I had a tree removed and the stump grounded (grinded??) and it took 4 weeks to germinate. Then last week it finally popped up.
> 
> Keep the soil moist but don't over water, and those little babies will be up before you know it.


This could be because the stump underground/roots suck the nitrogen from the soil.

At least that is what a tree guy once told me. He said the grass may Yellow in that spot till it breaks down and dies enough because it sucks in/does something with the nitrogen in the soil.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

+ I'll be following this post as well. I put some seed down in a similar fashion (50/50 topsoil + mushroom compost mix, lightly raked in kbg seeds, rolled, irrigated). This is the second day I had seed down, and watering via my irrigation zone for ~10min....just looks like after 2hrs the soil color turns back from a beautiful damp chocolate color to dry gray. Its ~65 today (Chicago suburbs) and windy, thus the drying conditions, but geez, I can't see how 2-3 waterings a day for a Fall reno could keep the soil moist w/out the surface going gray/dry looking. I feel like I should be watering 5-6 times a day to keep it constantly moist at the surface...or am I missing something?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes, frequent watering to keep it moist. Reduce the duration if you see puddles. I normally go with 5min 6 times a day.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

g-man said:


> Yes, frequent watering to keep it moist. Reduce the duration if you see puddles. I normally go with 5min 6 times a day.


Thanx g-man. I'll give that a try. In your opinion, how long would it take to dry out a kbg seed? Presuming 10mph winds and 65degs, but watering 3 times a day @ 10min. Just trying to gauge the possibility of dryout. I can't imagine any did but that grey color spooks me. (I fear anymore watering per my current schedule, the ground will become spongy, I'll defer to your suggestion - Regards)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It is hard to judge and a struggle. Next time it is dry, trigger a manual irrigation and time it, see how long it takes to get too wet. That should be your max duration, then adjust the frequency to keep moist. Top surface dry is not a huge deal but the seed contact area (0.25in?) are more concerning.

There are products that help keep moisture longer: soil Moist, peat moss and a paper product sold at landscape companies.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

g-man said:


> It is hard to judge and a struggle. Next time it is dry, trigger a manual irrigation and time it, see how long it takes to get too wet. That should be your max duration, then adjust the frequency to keep moist. Top surface dry is not a huge deal but the seed contact area (0.25in?) are more concerning.
> 
> There are products that help keep moisture longer: soil Moist, peat moss and a paper product sold at landscape companies.


Thanx. Should've mentioned I used Soil Moist, difficult to say if I mixed it well enough to cover most seeds. You bring up a good point, the 'dry' areas change to a moist color almost instantly after any water even a light misting reaches it, so its probably not bad. The rolled in seeds are definitely between 0.125 to 0.25" deep. Already updated my schedule to fewer mins, higher frequency.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

where do most people buy the green expanding mulch stuff? despite raking it in and covering with peat moss i'm seeing more and more seed come to the surface. its also a challenge keeping the sandy soil moist. i've upped my watering frequency as well, but I don't want to water at night.

@Hyna32 sounds like you've got your hands full with a larger reno and slower germinating KBG


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I purchased the stuff that I used on the hell strips from Site One. It comes in a bale, and it's used for hydroseeding. Try that and some spreader sticker. It worked for me to keep the seed on those areas.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> where do most people buy the green expanding mulch stuff? despite raking it in and covering with peat moss i'm seeing more and more seed come to the surface. its also a challenge keeping the sandy soil moist. i've upped my watering frequency as well, but I don't want to water at night.
> 
> @Hyna32 sounds like you've got your hands full with a larger reno and slower germinating KBG
> 
> @OnyxsLawn I did a spring reno as well. I'll try and get something written up on it soon. Seed has been down since Saturday evening, and from everything I heard, the 'surface soil' will often appear dry, but moisture is beneath it so watering lightly but with higher frequency seems to be the way to go...for me at least (spray zones @ 2min, rotors at 4... 5-6 times a day)


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Hyna32 what times do you water at? Do you water through the night or just in the morning and day? Unfortunately my timer will only space time intervals evenly so I've got it set to every 8 hours right now starting at 3:30am to avoid watering in the middle of the night.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Colonel K0rn thanks! I've been wanting to go check out what they have as there is one close to my house. It may be a little late to throw out on my current Reno as I should start seeing seedlings soon. If everything fails I'll give that a shot. In the mean time I'll keep feeding the birds.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

@OnyxsLawn Here's the post in my reno thread where I put it out.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> @Hyna32 what times do you water at? Do you water through the night or just in the morning and day? Unfortunately my timer will only space time intervals evenly so I've got it set to every 8 hours right now starting at 3:30am to avoid watering in the middle of the night.


Right now I water at 0700manually if needed, 1100, 1300, 1500, and 1730manually if needed. Sprayer heads @ 2 min and Rotors at 4min


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> Hyna32 what times do you water at? Do you water through the night or just in the morning and day? Unfortunately my timer will only space time intervals evenly so I've got it set to every 8 hours right now starting at 3:30am to avoid watering in the middle of the night.


If it is in a spigot, then set the timer to every the lowest you can. Close the spigot at 6pm, so even if the valves opens, there is no water. Then in the am, go open the spigot (don't forget!). I had a timer that I could only set at 9am, noon and 3pm. So I manually trigger one at 6am(before work) and 6pm (after work).


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@g-man good plan. I changed my watering schedule to just get the top 0.5" damp every 2 hours starting at 7am and i'll shut it off after the 7pm watering. Thanks for the help!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Like I said above, dont forget to turn it on in the am. Otherwise it will be a dry all day. Dont ask how I know. 

By the way, a few miles south you will not need to worry about watering. Its being slight raining since sunday night and will continue until tomorrow.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

g-man said:


> Like I said above, dont forget to turn it on in the am. Otherwise it will be a dry all day. Dont ask how I know.
> 
> By the way, a few miles south you will not need to worry about watering. Its being slight raining since sunday night and will continue until tomorrow.


I've got alarms set so hopefully I don't forget. My wife is going to love my alarm going off on the weekend so I can go water the grass.

I'd love some of the warmth and rain you guys have had down there. I was in Indy this weekend and visited my parents. Their lawn is greener than mine and they haven't fertilized since I lived there. :evil: We're at least a week and a half behind you guys for only being a couple hours north.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> @g-man good plan. I changed my watering schedule to just get the top 0.5" damp every 2 hours starting at 7am and i'll shut it off after the 7pm watering. Thanks for the help!


Figured out my issue....the rotors are essentially throwing two sprays of water, as designed. 1) the main thick stream lands 20-30ft away, saturating the ground nicely, but the 2) misty spray under the main stream from the rotor head to the main stream landing areas isn't sufficient enough mist to damped then soil as much as the stream landing zone. Options are to increase the duration, possibly saturating/puddling the landing zones but at least penetrating the area between rotor and landing. I'll give it shot. This is why my lot look like swiss cheese in dampness. Frustrating


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

I should also mention that my rotors allow me to adjust a screw which reduces the distance and thinness of the main stream to a more spray, shorter throwing one...trade off there is that it won't reach as far. I'll need to figure it out ASAP which configuration maximizes my coverage


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Ideally you want even coverage. Is this in ground irrigation? What rotor?


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Just have to pipe in that, I'M FOLLOWING THIS THREAD FIR THE PICS THAT INCLUDE THE DAWG!

Purty pup, indeed!


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Thanks! Always happy to post more dog pics! This is Onyx... its still his lawn:


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

If you haven't done so yet I would put some Tenacity down on the back yard. With all that tilling your going to get a LOT of weeds.


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

OnyxsLawn said:


> I've read some contradictory info on using N to push growth into summer (late May into June for us) for seedlings. anyone here have experience or thoughts on heavy spring nitrogen causing fungus problems down the line?


Conventional wisdom has always been to avoid too much N in the spring. Theory is too much growth will cause the lawn to stress and get disease(s) easier when things get hot and humid in the summer. However, folks avoid that by using fungicides preventatively. Also, interesting that Pete from GCI Turf (youtube channel) is saying N doesn't cause disease, and he cites a NC state study, amongst other things (can't recall now).


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

kevreh said:


> If you haven't done so yet I would put some Tenacity down on the back yard. With all that tilling your going to get a LOT of weeds.


Mesotrione went down with the seed. still seeing a few broadleaf sprouts and some onion grass. I will pull them by hand once the seedlings are strong enough to walk on. i'll also pull a few older grass plants that made it though 2 apps of round up.



kevreh said:


> Conventional wisdom has always been to avoid too much N in the spring. Theory is too much growth will cause the lawn to stress and get disease(s) easier when things get hot and humid in the summer. However, folks avoid that by using fungicides preventatively. Also, interesting that Pete from GCI Turf (youtube channel) is saying N doesn't cause disease, and he cites a NC state study, amongst other things (can't recall now).


what is too much? i've read 0.2 lb/k/wk is appropriate for new seedlings but this is mostly practiced in the fall. i was thinking of using half that rate or possibly a slow release vs. fast release.

i plan on putting down a preventative fungicide once the low temps reach the middle 50s (mid June typically) and to do my best to keep the roots watered and the leafs dry at night to combat disease.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm going to quote this study from Univ. of Illinois. http://web.extension.illinois.edu/state/newsdetail.cfm?NewsID=5814



> "Unfortunately, nitrogen fertilizer promotes shoot growth at the expense of the root system," says Robson. "Even with cool soil temperatures, the grass plant shifts growth to shoots to use the nitrogen. The root system stays *undeveloped*. We have been conditioned to expect a thick, green, lush lawn in the spring as soon as temperatures warm. Part of the problem can be traced back to the crabgrass killer combination products."


Underdeveloped roots could the reduce the ability to recover/survive from diseases or drought.

But, for a new lawn, it needs careful application of nitrogen to keep it going and developing. This uses the approach called "spoon feeding". A low qty high frequency of nitrogen. I prefer fast release since you can control it.


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

I'm dismissing any article that starts with "Fertilizing lawns may not be the best for the grass in the long run, according to David Robson, University of Illinois Extension horticulture educator." Lol. Sort of. 

Also wonder how that quote aligns with many of us who do stronger N rates in the fall to promote root growth. I mean, when he says "The root system stays undeveloped.", I have to really wonder. That seems like a huge blanket statement.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@kevreh I don't know that i'd dismiss it but I think the title misses the point of the article which might be better put as: high doses on N early in the season can push too much top growth skipping a crucial root development period. i do think there are some misdirection in there though. its also an older article.

MSU extension sums my thoughts up nicely. 


> • Nitrogen nutritional level-moderate nitrogen nutritional
> levels allow a balanced supply of carbohydrates
> to support both shoot and root growth of cool-season
> turfgrasses. Excessive nitrogen levels force shoot
> ...


so moderate aka spoonfeeding, N will push both roots and leaves. But too much N will push leaf growth at the expense of root growth.

is potassium something I should spoonfeed as well? seems the more important element that is used up quickly with new grass (why we use a starter fert at seed down).


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

g-man said:


> Ideally you want even coverage. Is this in ground irrigation? What rotor?


@g-man I have Rainbird 5000 series rotors and 1804 sprayers. Turns out they were adjusted more on the mist side. So I loosened the spray screws on mist and are now throwing at full streams...better coverage now. We have 4 days in a row next week with highs in the mid/high 70's and overnight lows in the mid 50's. That'll be between my Day 10 and 14 range, hoping for germination then as it dips back into the 60's the following week. A bit optimistic I know.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Grass Babies!!!



Its Day 6 and starting to see some decent germination. A little worried that the frost Saturday night is going to harm them. Anything I can do to keep them safe?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Frost could be a problem and I don't have experience with it. How low is the forecast temp? Do you have more seeds?

Crazy ideas used to protect wine crops. Blanket placed the night before. One that is not that crazy, water the lawn early am since water temp is around 50F.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Temps are supposed to drop below freezing for 5 hours getting down to 28. Frost will depend on how low the soil temp is the day before.

I do have a couple pounds of seed left. not enough for a full reseed though.

I thought of blankets but I'm worried they'll just smother the seedlings.

I'll probably just leave the sprinklers on overnight. Like @g-man said the water temp is around 50 F so that should help keep the soil temp up and there shouldn't be much evaporative cooling effects at that low of a temp and at night. We'll see how it makes it through I guess.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Like I said, these are crazy ideas. The weight of a blanket should not be a big deal. Walking on the yard to place the blanket and keep it in place might cause more damage.

I would not keep the sprinkler on all night either, only in the early am hour. That could be too much water. Remember that heat transfer is a slow process (except radiation at a power of 4). The soil is acts as a big thermal bank. Therefore the soil temps should not change much. It is the temp at the tiny leafs that could be a problem if it freezes the water inside it. The expansion of the water could break some of the internal cellular structures. The idea of the water is just to prevent the leaf tips from freezing. If the sprinkler water gets to freeze because of the temp, then it could cause more damage than leaving it alone. The blanket will take advantage of the soil thermal energy.

Again, these are just crazy ideas. Having extra seeds to account for any losses is the backup plan during a reno. You cant never anticipate what mother nature has for you during a reno.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I think you're probably right about walking on the seedlings doing more damage than i could save with the blankets or some other form of insulation.

As far as heat transfer in the soil I don't think its as slow as you think, it depends on the soil but heat transfer through soil is always faster than in water. (though it has been a while since I worked with heat transfer coefficients but I'll give it a shot).

Radiative transfer is negligible as its night and soil doesn't radiate heat.
Convective heat transfer is the main issue but there is little I can do to stop it without insulation. The only saving grace here is that the seedlings are still small and close to the ground so there is less surface area for transfer and less air flow.

Conductive heat transfer is where things get interesting:
These slides do a pretty good job at describing the heat transfer- http://mech.utah.edu/~pardyjak/efd/SoilHeatTransfer.pdf
Here's the summary
dry soil (think a desert) has very little heat capacity however soil with water will take on the higher heat capacity of the water. Meaning saturated soil will be able to hold more heat.

Conductivity and diffusivity will be of little importance in the majority of the yard. Though the areas around the warmer concrete will benefit from a higher conductivity.

"Thermal Admittance" as they call it in these slides is the resistance to heat transfer across the boundary, from the soil to the air. this is very important as ideally we'd like the soil to heat the immediately surrounding air in order to keep the blades of the seedlings warm.

All this boils down to more water in the soil will allow it to hold more heat and do a better job heating the seedlings when the air temp drops. So I think Im going to keep the soil as saturated as i can tomorrow during the day and night. I don't think saturated soil will cause many problems for 1 day as my sandy soil drains very quickly. I'll return to my normal watering schedule the following day.

Does this make sense?


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> Grass Babies!!!
> 
> 
> 
> Its Day 6 and starting to see some decent germination. A little worried that the frost Saturday night is going to harm them. Anything I can do to keep them safe?


@OnyxsLawn Congrats man! Is this germinating seed from your 4/8-4/11 spread or something more recent....re:day 6 germination. Inquiring simply because we are near each other (DuPage Co IL) and I'm at day 5...again, Congrats!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@OnyxsLawn I agree with your assessment, except on the radiative transfer being negligible. A lot of energy is lost to the space (at 3 kelvin) on a clear night. Wikipedia explains it better than what I could type from my recollection of the heat transfer class in college :


> The same radiative cooling mechanism can sometimes cause frost or black ice to form on surfaces exposed to the clear night sky, even when the ambient temperature does not fall below freezing.


 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_cooling

PS - Yes I know that i just quoted wikepedia which could have flaws, but this description reads fairly accurate to me.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Hyna32 Thanks! and Yes from the same original spread of seed. I reset my day counter as after i spread the seed we got a several freezing days and some snow which would prevent any kind of germination and kill any seedlings. I set day 0 as the first day with soil temps above 50 F (about 2 days after the ground re-thawed). Not sure if this is stricktly accurate as 6 days to germinate is pretty quick for fescue, though not a lot is germinated. I have read that freeze thaw cycles can help speed up germination but not sure if this applies to grass seed too. Good luck with your seed! you may be in a better boat without seedlings up right now.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@g-man so maybe not entirely negligible but still orders of magnitude less than convection and conduction. dirt also has a much lower emissivity than asphalt.

Also, I just tried to explain why I was doing heat transfer calculations on my yard, to my wife over text and pretty sure i could feel the eye roll from 1200 miles away. I'm just gonna hope for the best and leave this one be.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

They triggered a freeze/frost warning for tonight at Indy. It seems like it is colder than what they originally forecasted. I placed blankets and bags on the hydrangeas that had bloomed.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

It appears as if we survived the frost. front yard had frost on the leaves but the back yard looked alright except a few shaded spots.

Lots of grass up on day 9. hoping it will keep filling out over the next few weeks. Still pleased as I didn't expect any germination until late this week.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> It appears as if we survived the frost. front yard had frost on the leaves but the back yard looked alright except a few shaded spots.
> 
> Lots of grass up on day 9. hoping it will keep filling out over the next few weeks. Still pleased as I didn't expect any germination until late this week.


Saw a handful of my Bewitched early risers (day 7) yesterday! With the day highs in the upper 70's and night time lows in the high 50's low 60's, plus the ~1" rain we are expecting Weds through Thursday, I'm hoping to see a nice pop in germination. The forecast couldn't get much better. This wait suspense/second guessing is very real :shock:


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Hyna32 Congrats! its a great feeling to know you'll have at least something come up. I've been distracting myself from watching the grass grow with mulching in the front beds and organizing my garage, but I can't wait to get into the back yard again.

The next week finally looks perfect for growing grass! What a long winter. Should even get the salad in the front yard looking good.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

Well the rain hit and my back yard has a river running through it...right when things were germinating. :shock: 
@OnyxsLawn did you get slammed as well? How did your seedlings fair? I got ~1" in 45min this morning, and another 0.5" a few hrs earlier. My property is realtively flat but at least 1/3 of the lot had some amount of moving water, then puddling as the rains past. Too dark for pictures but Ill take some as day breaks, wide awake now :roll:


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I didn't get any rivers flowing through but I did get some pooling during the heavy stuff. see the photo below. we got about 2.5" but the extremely sandy soil drains very fast. We drove through areas last night that got hit with 4" within an hour or two.



Most of my seed has already germinated (day 13) so I don't think i had much seed get displaced. anything that did will probably just come up in some thick strips at the edge of where it pooled. I think most of the seedlings survived, just got pretty flattened. @Hyna32 How did yours hold up?



I plan on throwing down the rest of the seed in some of the thinner areas next week or the week after. Whenever I feel comfortable walking on the "lawn". Now off to figure out whats going on in the front yard.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Oy, that looks a lot like what happened my renovation, except for the dry soil.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

@Colonel K0rn Nothing near as bad as what happened to you (read your post a while back)! The picture makes it look worse than it is because the seedlings don't stand out against lighter colored sand but they are mostly there.

I can't wait to get some real grass growing to start holding the sand in place a little better. Every time we get a lot of rain the ground acts as a fluidized bed and the sand comes up to the surface.

A few months back we had some epic rain that dumped over 6" of rain in 24 hrs and caused the river to crest over a lot of the bridges in town. I'm glad I didn't have seed down then.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

OnyxsLawn said:


> I didn't get any rivers flowing through but I did get some pooling during the heavy stuff. see the photo below. we got about 2.5" but the extremely sandy soil drains very fast. We drove through areas last night that got hit with 4" within an hour or two.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

Ok, clearly I need to figure out how to post pics from Google. Standby


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Hard to tell from a distance, do you have many seedlings up? Did the washed out areas lose everything?


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

Pics are a bit blurry from the window, but from the left side of the flagstone island where you can see standing water, the flow went to the right ending behind the crab tree. I'll take a germination pic when I get home.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

Green babies! Day 12


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

How tall are those? They look pretty dense already. Mine are mostly around an inch tall and starting to send out a second leaf. I want to throw some more seed down but am hesitant to walk in it yet.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Threw another 5 lbs of seed down today. I did a test earlier in the week to see how a few plants would respond to being smashed down and they popped back up the next day so I figured i'd be safe to walk on them lightly. I went barefoot just to be safe. I also put down an app of milo at 1 lb/k since the last fertilizer was at seed down almost 4 weeks ago. Hoping the slow release will keep the seedlings fertilized while the overseed germinates.

I stuck with the same TTTF mix for this overseed but I may throw down some PRG in a few weeks to thicken things up with the expectation that most will die off during the winter. we'll see how it goes.

There are some weeds coming up in spots but they are mostly broadleaf so they should be easy to kill with some WBG in a about a month


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Day 27 since the first seeding
Parts of the lawn are starting to fill in nicely but other parts are still very thin or bare. The spots where i put down too much seed seem to be doing the best for some reason. The seed I threw down last weekend washed (or possible blew) away in the storms we've been having.

Since the mesotrione has worn off from the first application a ton of weeds popped up over the weekend while I was out of town.







So today the wife and I spent about an hour and a half filling up a 5 gallon bucket with weeds. 
I also decided to throw down about 15 lbs of PRG seed to try to speed things up a little. with that i put down another app of starter fert +mesotrione in an effort to keep the weeds under control.

I think I just need to be patient. The out of control look when I got home yesterday had me a little down, to the point where I was pricing out sod this morning, I'll revisit it in a week or two.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

These images show the dirt fairly dry. How are you keeping up with watering?


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

The sandy parts never really look wet even after 2" of rain. I also skipped 2 waterings yesterday so I didn't make a muddy mess of the back yard. We had a lot of water up here over the weekend that gave everything a good deep soak. 
I have been watering every 2 hrs from 7 am to 7 pm 6 minutes on each impact sprinkler, which is enough to keep the top moist. I do another manual watering when I get home from lab to keep up with evaporation from the heat. I also added some more peat moss on top to help retain water.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Day 32 and the lawn is really loving all of the rain we had this weekend. The TTTF seedlings show no sign of damage after applying starter fert +mesotrione. In fact its actually taken off and grown about an inch this week. The weeds are starting to yellow and i don't see many more coming up other than a few trees.

The PRG seedlings have also started to germinate and should fill in with the TTTF nicely.



Feeling like I might have yard by summer finally


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## bellts02 (Apr 16, 2018)

OnyxsLawn said:


> Day 32 and the lawn is really loving all of the rain we had this weekend. The TTTF seedlings show no sign of damage after applying starter fert +mesotrione. In fact its actually taken off and grown about an inch this week. The weeds are starting to yellow and i don't see many more coming up other than a few trees.
> 
> The PRG seedlings have also started to germinate and should fill in with the TTTF nicely.
> 
> ...


Looking good.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Day 39:

First mow of the new grass!
Got up early this morning to beat this absurd heat (already 75 at 6 a.m.) we've been having. Blew the dew off the grass with my blower and did a very careful (no self propel or sharp turns) mow with the bag on.





PRG is filling in the gaps nicely. kinda wish i would've gone full PRG from the start but we'll see what comes out of summer and winter best.

Still watering a ton. hoping to back off after the heat breaks. hopefully to only 3x a day by the end of the week.

Weeds are bad but aren't out of control. will hit them with WBG next week.

Overall I'm pleased with the results considering we haven't really had a spring this year.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@OnyxsLawn How is it looking?


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Its not looking too bad actually! too late to take pictures but i'll try to get some tomorrow if I get home at lunch to mow. 
Been really busy with the other landscaping lately and have just been letting the lawn coast. 
I had a neighbor stop by the other week and tell me that there were a lot of weeds in my yard and that I should treat them. i tried to explain that the seedlings were still too young but he just kept telling me about the great deals at Lowes...

After that encounter and a few more mows i decided it was time to start hammering the weeds and pushing a little growth (we had some nice cools days with highs in the 70s) here's what i've done lately:
June 5
WBG
0.2 lb/k N from 29-0-5
June 12
1 b/k N from milorganite

Backed the watering down to once a day in the morning.

On Friday before we left town for the weekend I noticed some patches that were starting to turn grey. stressed about it all weekend so when we got home at 10 tonight i sprayed:
Mancozeb 4oz /k
WBG 4 oz /k

The morning sun will reveal what the lawn looks like since i couldn't see very well in the dark. Till then...


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## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

If the lawn is stressed you might want to save the weed battle for the fall


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

Well I managed to mow on my lunch break today. Its stupid hot outside



Day 59:




Grass is filling in nicely. weeds are pretty bad on half of it but thats to be expected with a spring seed. i'll get them under control eventually. I will probably heed the advice and lay off the weed killer with it being this hot right now.

There are about half a dozen brown patches that showed up over the weekend. hopefully the fungicide will prevent more damage and i'll plug the dead patches with some grass from my tub o' grass. 



unfortunately the grass is going to be taking a beating in the next few weeks as i'm going to be putting up a spite fence to deal with some awful neighbors. I knew I was going to have to overseed in the fall anyways but overall i'm pleased. the lawn is a level and smooth now and it was good practice for when i do the front a little nicer.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

I guess I was so tired last night i forgot to actually hit post so lets try this again

Day 66.

Mulch mowed for the first time. I was worried about the clippings holding extra moisture and feeding the fungus, but I've been mowing enough that I was cutting off less than 1/2" so I gave it a shot.

Also Spread 0.2 lb/k N and 4 oz/k Mancozeb and some bug b gon.



Lighting really makes it look great but its got a long way to come.

Anyone have any suggestions for prepping the grass to get trampled with heavy equipment for a fence install?

P.S. should this be in the journals board?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Maybe a light fert after to help it grow. 0.10 N/M? I would take a rake to it after and try to reduce the matting.


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## chrisben (Sep 11, 2017)

Leafblower can help grass stand back up after being trampled for a bit.


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## OnyxsLawn (Mar 15, 2018)

i think this is gonna take more than a leaf blower



pulling out this stump (super stump combined with a fence post) put quite a few ruts and dirt all over this part of the lawn



but i got the fence up





I've been watering like crazy to deal with the traffic and heat. I also applied a full bag of milorganite. I will definitely need to overseed once the temps drop.


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