# Carbon-X formula changes - Info?



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Have the upcoming/recent Carbon-X (and other Carbon Earth product) formula changes been covered/explained by Matt somewhere in a Lawn and Garden Live show? I see soy protein hydrolysate is being added (not sure if it's being used as an additional unrecorded N-source or rather as a biostimulant), and the Urea/Ammonium Sulfate now has denitrification inhibitors. Also, the Potassium source used is now SOP (though I hear that it has been for some time already before these other changes were made).

Anyone keeping up with this?


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## Bigdrumnc (Mar 28, 2019)

Paul outlaw just posted a video about it last night. Matt has talked about it some in some of his live shows but I haven't seen him do a grass factor in a few weeks. I am really curious to see if there are any availability changes for the diy market.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Aside from the addition of the urease inhibiting Urea the biggest change seems to be away from HA and towards these soy peptides. I seem to remember he answered a question or two in a previous chat session but I think it was pretty vague, understandably so(they seem to have ended their relationship w Greene County Fert with this decision ).

Reading up on these peptides I'm learning that they are hydrolyzed from soybean meal (which have a lot of protein still in them).. and certain enzymes are used to extract/break down the proteins into whatever amino acids or peptides they're looking to capture. This is about as far as I can wrap my mind around chemistry but maybe you'll find these resources interesting (I think this may be the actual product integrated into the product btw.. it has some Nitrogen value (13-16%) but I haven't fully grasped if that's what causes the root mass increase or if there's a biostimulant aspect to it).
https://agroplasmausa.com/labels/Explorer%2016-0-0%2044%20lbs.%20label-web%20R.pdf

Here's the agronomist for that company giving a speach about this "product".. great specks of information to be had: https://youtu.be/3cFwkI85oeI

Doing searches on peptides and what they are brings up some interesting results. It seems that every industry uses these broken-down amino acid chains (molecular chemistry ?) from cosmetics to health/fitness, food taste (MSG??) to fertilizers. Interesting reads, most of them way above my pay grade. 
This was an easy one to understand: https://imb.uq.edu.au/article/2017/11/explainer-peptides-vs-proteins-whats-difference
And this one went DEEP: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5744479/

Anyway, it seems interesting and 'cutting edge' if nothing else. Def not boring NPK stuff anymore!!


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

corneliani said:


> Aside from the addition of the urease inhibiting Urea the biggest change seems to be away from HA and towards these soy peptides. I seem to remember he answered a question or two in a previous chat session but I think it was pretty vague, understandably so(they seem to have ended their relationship w Greene County Fert with this decision ).


Outlaw Paul ended the relationship with GCF?


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Gilley11 said:


> corneliani said:
> 
> 
> > Aside from the addition of the urease inhibiting Urea the biggest change seems to be away from HA and towards these soy peptides. I seem to remember he answered a question or two in a previous chat session but I think it was pretty vague, understandably so(they seem to have ended their relationship w Greene County Fert with this decision ).
> ...


I was referring to CarbonX using GCF products. Matt confirmed that himself. My assumption is that the choice to include these peptides in the new product line was made in lieu of using GCF HA.. not sure if any HA is even included at all for that matter, as the label doesn't show any.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Well, the humic acid was fun while it lasted. Nothing stays the same forever. I'll wait until hearing more info to see about these changes.


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

These "biostimulant" peptides increase root hair growth got me thinking … possible water increase and how much more.

Maybe the peptides product will have some wording on the label to get the most benefit use only on well irrigated soil. I heard biochar helps the soil retain water … I wonder who'll be selling that combined with the peptides. :wink:

_"Biologically active peptides have been isolated and chemically characterized from PHs, especially those derived from plant materials. For instance, a short peptide (12 amino acids) called '*root hair promoting peptide*' has been identify in a soybean-derived PHs (Matsumiya and Kubo, 2011) and in the commercial legume derived-PHs 'Trainer®'"
_ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5744479/

Re: Root Hair Growth Peptide
_"I notice the one on the right really drink up the water. How would that change the watering habits of someone using this? Will this cause the lawn to need more water than current?"_


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

Green said:


> Well, the humic acid was fun while it lasted. Nothing stays the same forever. I'll wait until hearing more info to see about these changes.


@Green 
I didn't intend for this to come off as negative towards GCF or HA in general..., frankly I think there's been plenty of data that's shown good results from utilizing HA on crops & turf alike. The economics of it as well as the form & quantity can be argued though, that's for sure. 
For whatever reason, cX has decided to switch suppliers but I trust that there's a good reason for it. Matt does not come off as a profiteer to me. He genuinely seems like he's attempting to create the best product his circumstance allows. Albeit circumstances can force ppl to do things they normally wouldn't but even then I'd trust the dude. He's earned it.

As for the water uptake @Powhatan - if I understood correctly these peptides create an increase in Root Mass. In the video I linked earlier the agronomist (at the time independent, now seems to be the company agronomist) mentions that this product reduced nutrient input, which would align with the 'enlarged root mass' effect due to being able to capture more of the surrounding nutrients (as well as water??). I'm just speculating but from what i"m reading this lines up w the described effects/benefits of applying this product (reduced nutrient input, greater root mass, higher resistance to disease, etc).

Hopefully one day we'll get that detailed video that Matt mentioned. :thumbup:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@corneliani, I'm not saying I'm giving up on humic acid. In fact, I've barely tried it yet. Just saying that it sounds like Carbon Earth fertilizer will not have it in the new formulations, and no formula or product lasts forever during your or my lawn care habit timeline. That said, the biochar is the main attraction in Carbon Earth fertilizers.

I'm personally not into soy in fertilizers due to a sensitivity, but I'll wait until Matt explains the hydrolysis of the protein.

It also sounds like the brand of fast release N they're using may have changed. I couldn't find whether AMIDAS comes in a stabilized variant. Also, the benefits of stabilization aren't clear to me, even though I've read a few articles about it. From what I see, reduced volatilization is the major benefit.

As for SOP, I'm all for it over MOP.


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## corneliani (Apr 2, 2019)

@Green - check out the Anuvia GreenTRX label :shock:  Protein Hydrolysate.. Amino Acids... Peptides. They've never popped out at me before. Seems the name of the game on these 'hybrid-organic' ferts (ScreaminGreen, ProPeat, CarbonX, etc) are to infuse organic matter of some sort (composted chicken manure + biochar, peat moss, biosolids, etc) with synthetic ferts and have them co-exist. I'm not against it, kinda like it.. interesting to see the similarity esp since you know Matt was a fan of the product from the start. 
:thumbup:


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

corneliani said:


> @Green - check out the Anuvia GreenTRX label :shock:  Protein Hydrolysate.. Amino Acids... Peptides. They've never popped out at me before. Seems the name of the game on these 'hybrid-organic' ferts (ScreaminGreen, ProPeat, CarbonX, etc) are to infuse organic matter of some sort (composted chicken manure + biochar, peat moss, biosolids, etc) with synthetic ferts and have them co-exist. I'm not against it, kinda like it.. interesting to see the similarity esp since you know Matt was a fan of the product from the start.
> :thumbup:


Yeah, one of my favorite fertilizers, Protene 8-0-4, has Protein Hydrolysate as it's main N-source. They don't say what kind of protein, though.

If most of this stuff ends up being from soy, I guess this is where a lot of the soybeans that US farmers have grown are being put, since other countries aren't buying as much of them. It has to go somewhere. But better in our fertilizer than in our processed food products (like cereals).


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

corneliani said:


> @Green - check out the Anuvia GreenTRX label :shock:  Protein Hydrolysate.. Amino Acids... Peptides. They've never popped out at me before. Seems the name of the game on these 'hybrid-organic' ferts (ScreaminGreen, ProPeat, CarbonX, etc) are to infuse organic matter of some sort (composted chicken manure + biochar, peat moss, biosolids, etc) with synthetic ferts and have them co-exist. I'm not against it, kinda like it.. interesting to see the similarity esp since you know Matt was a fan of the product from the start.


Yeah, one of my favorite fertilizers, Protene 8-0-4 has Protein Hydrolysate as it's main N-source. They don't say what kind of protein, though.

As for these other labels...whew. They may have added it more recently...I don't ever remember Screamin' Green having it in it, for example.

If most of this stuff ends up being from soy, I guess this is where a lot of the soybeans that US farmers have grown are being put, since other countries aren't buying as much of them. It has to go somewhere. But better in our fertilizer than in our processed food products (like cereals).


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## Grassmasterwilson (Jun 11, 2018)

Check out the Paul's price cuts YouTube. He did a great job as mentioned.

I'm interested in the carbon earth line as a low volume applicator. I don't think I was really able to get enough humic out based on when my blanket apps were in my program.

As a DIY who could apply humic monthly I think it would be much better.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Is it possible to put down too much humic?


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## daniel3507 (Jul 31, 2018)

@Gilley11 I think there comes a point where you don't really see any extra benefits of the humic if you apply too much but I don't think it causes any severe detrimental effects. I can't recall the numbers though on what the max recommended is though.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I listened to Matt's new video on this topic, but need to go back into it again. It helped explain a lot of what this is and what it does. The takeaway--it acts as a hormone promoting root growth.


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## mowww (Jan 16, 2018)

Gilley11 said:


> Is it possible to put down too much humic?


Excess humic acid could possibly cause increased drying in the root zone requiring increased irrigation. https://usgatero.msu.edu/v08/n12.pdf


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