# N-Ext Products



## Miller_Low_Life

How often should you use these products?
I have the Air-8, RGS & Humic Acid.
I've applied the Air-8 once a month so far and applied the others just two weeks ago.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

I'd do the air8 once in spring and once in fall. The rgs everytime you fert (unless you fert every week) or once a month. Humic acid maybe 2 times a year.


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## LouisvilleGrubber

I'd also be curious to know who is using these products and how they are working. Where are people buying them? The fact that I've only seen these products on YouTube channels is a bit of a yellow flag for me, but I could be talked off that ledge.


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## Killsocket

For homeowners, two places:

http://www.greenecountyfert.com/diy/


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## viva_oldtrafford

LouisvilleGrubber said:


> I'd also be curious to know who is using these products and how they are working. Where are people buying them? _*The fact that I've only seen these products on YouTube channels is a bit of a yellow flag for me*_, but I could be talked off that ledge.


Rightfully so. These products come with claims that cannot be backed by science. Sure, you'll get some anecdotal stories of positive results, but nothing more. If you have the disposable income, and have some free time, by all means, give these products a try (spoiler...don't expect any real results from the super, duper, mega liquid aerification product). My favorite professor at Penn State, Dr. McNitt, would always tell us something along the lines of "if the product really works, the industry will let you know. You won't need a salesperson to fill you in".


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## Wolverine

I have RGS and green effect. I am running both of the products since spring along with milorganite, chicken pellet fert, pot ash combo and my turf is thick and deep green. I will switch to the the fall n blitz soon but for now very happy with N-ext products.


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## Miller_Low_Life

I will say the Air-8 seems to be working. I've haf a tough time with two spots in the lawn that the clay is as soft as it's ever been. Also could be I'm watering properly.


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## Colonel K0rn

I've been using RGS, AIR-8, Humic 12 applied at the highest rates biweekly since 3/10 along with a few applications of Greene Effect (bimonthly), supplemented with urea foliar apps at 0.25#N/M. I've noticed that my compaction isn't as severe as it used to be, but I'm working with some soil that doesn't have much clay left. It's old, old clay that's been broken down over a very long time, and the remaining particles are almost silt-like, and it's making my soil very easy to compact.

What I have seen is an increase in the soil activity, at the surface which is visible, which was absent before I started applying. Some of the areas of my lawn that dry up after the rain form a crust, that's almost like dried up algae, but it's actually OM that's just sitting on the surface. It's quite interesting.

As far as empirical data, I don't have any to present, other than the tests that I have performed on my soil, and a record of the stuff that I'm applying. I do have a lot of pictures though.


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## iFisch3224

This is a picture, abet 7 years ago, of exactly what we are putting down in some form - kelp, (bat guano), humics, fulvics and macros. No other N supplementation except the guano. Although these are veggies, same principle applies for grass.


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## slomo

Wolverine said:


> I have RGS and green effect. I am running both of the products since spring along with milorganite, chicken pellet fert, pot ash combo and my turf is thick and deep green. I will switch to the the fall n blitz soon but for now very happy with N-ext products.


Sounds just like my "animal" neighbors yard. He never mows, fertilizes, aerates, sprays for anything or waters ever. His lawn is thick and green. PLUS it's a foot tall front and back. He spends zero on his lawn. Doesn't even own a mower LOL. :roll:

slomo


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## Suburban Jungle Life

slomo said:


> Wolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have RGS and green effect. I am running both of the products since spring along with milorganite, chicken pellet fert, pot ash combo and my turf is thick and deep green. I will switch to the the fall n blitz soon but for now very happy with N-ext products.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds just like my "animal" neighbors yard. He never mows, fertilizes, aerates, sprays for anything or waters ever. His lawn is thick and green. PLUS it's a foot tall front and back. He spends zero on his lawn. Doesn't even own a mower LOL. :roll:
> 
> slomo
Click to expand...

Please clarify. Wolverine said he takes care of his yard but to you that sounds like an "animal" yard which isn't kempt?


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## slomo

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> slomo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wolverine said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have RGS and green effect. I am running both of the products since spring along with milorganite, chicken pellet fert, pot ash combo and my turf is thick and deep green. I will switch to the the fall n blitz soon but for now very happy with N-ext products.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds just like my "animal" neighbors yard. He never mows, fertilizes, aerates, sprays for anything or waters ever. His lawn is thick and green. PLUS it's a foot tall front and back. He spends zero on his lawn. Doesn't even own a mower LOL. :roll:
> 
> slomo
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Please clarify. Wolverine said he takes care of his yard but to you that sounds like an "animal" yard which isn't kempt?
Click to expand...

Please read my comment again sir. I never mentioned or even know who Wolverine is. My point was some people take zero care of their yard and still have a great lawn. Didn't say great looking "IN MY NEIGHBOR'S CASE SIR". Not Wolverine or anyone else. My neighbor that lives next door to me. Oh was your comment sarcasm? I just got it. Good one......... The animal comment and someone named Wolverine. LOL

slomo


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## g-man

@slomo

You quoted Wolverine applying different products and then said: "Sounds just like my "animal" neighbors yard." It reads that you are comparing Wolverine to your neighbor by the use of "Sounds just like..." I'm still not clear what are you trying to convey with your post by quoting Wolverine.


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## probasestealer

@slomo he doesn't open a mower? Isn't he in violation of a city ordinance?


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## Wolverine

I think slomo is comparing my chicken pellet use to his neighbors animals poo and how it thickens a lawn.


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## Ridgerunner

Miller_Low_Life said:


> How often should you use these products?
> I have the Air-8, RGS & Humic Acid.
> I've applied the Air-8 once a month so far and applied the others just two weeks ago.


With regards to the HA component only. Studies have shown improved plant growth results up to soil ppm levels of 500. Levels in excess of 500 ppm have resulted in detrimental plant growth effects. Applying 9 oz of 12% HA/M would require more than 13,000 applications to approach that 500 ppm level. I am unaware of the detrimental levels for Seaweed/kelp extract. KOH is a high pH and highly caustic substance and detrimental levels would be dependent on a number of variables, but at recommended rates and application practices (washing off the plant), detrimental effects should be negligible if not non-existent.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Ridgerunner said:


> Miller_Low_Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> How often should you use these products?
> I have the Air-8, RGS & Humic Acid.
> I've applied the Air-8 once a month so far and applied the others just two weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> With regards to the HA component only. Studies have shown improved plant growth results up to soil ppm levels of 500. Levels in excess of 500 ppm have resulted in detrimental plant growth effects. Applying 9 oz of 12% HA/M would require more than 13,000 applications to approach that 500 ppm level. I am unaware of the detrimental levels for Seaweed/kelp extract. KOH is a high pH and highly caustic substance and detrimental levels would be dependent on a number of variables, but at recommended rates and application practices (washing off the plant), detrimental effects should be negligible if not non-existent.
Click to expand...

As much as you want! Though, I did apply a similar product with similar % to RGS at 4oz/M in 90° and it yellowed the grass. Not irrigated. It rained a week later and it was all green then. Perhaps the grass didn't appreciate the kelp in high temps. Otherwise, others have poured the GCF products straight on the ground without any problems.


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## Delmarva Keith

I bought the 5 gal pack of Air8 and applied 9 oz per 1,000 about a week ago. Definitely didn't hurt anything and the grass seemed to like it. Objective is to try to loosen up some areas with poor infiltration.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Delmarva Keith said:


> I bought the 5 gal pack of Air8 and applied 9 oz per 1,000 about a week ago. Definitely didn't hurt anything and the grass seemed to like it. Objective is to try to loosen up some areas with poor infiltration.


 :lol: Nice! Keep us updated! I sprayed at 9oz/M twice, 1 month apart. Great results for me.


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## slomo

Wolverine said:


> I think slomo is comparing my chicken pellet use to his neighbors animals poo and how it thickens a lawn.


Too many scientists on this board. My comment was one person spending a ton of money and effort on a lawn to make it look nice. My neighbor spends zero and still has a thriving lawn. Ironic right? Hope I don't have to explain it again. 

slomo


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## Delmarva Keith

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> 
> I bought the 5 gal pack of Air8 and applied 9 oz per 1,000 about a week ago. Definitely didn't hurt anything and the grass seemed to like it. Objective is to try to loosen up some areas with poor infiltration.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: Nice! Keep us updated! I sprayed at 9oz/M twice, 1 month apart. Great results for me.
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: :nod:


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## hurless

LouisvilleGrubber said:


> I'd also be curious to know who is using these products and how they are working. Where are people buying them? The fact that I've only seen these products on YouTube channels is a bit of a yellow flag for me, but I could be talked off that ledge.


I've been buying from Pete at GCI. So far I've put down Humic12, RGS, and microgreene. My St. Augustine has responded pretty well.

July 19


2 days ago.


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## Delmarva Keith

Looks good! :thumbup:


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## NeVs

My daughter ripped up the info paper from GCF that comes with the bio-stimulants pack.

Any chance someone can scan me a copy of it?


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## greengrass

The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.


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## CenlaLowell

greengrass said:


> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.


I agree, but there's people in this forum that's having great results from Green county products as well. They have nothing to gain from sharing there results, so there's got to be something to there products. I haven't brought any yet because I've been on the fence about it.


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## greengrass

CenlaLowell said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but there's people in this forum that's having great results from Green county products as well. They have nothing to gain from sharing there results, so there's got to be something to there products. I haven't brought any yet because I've been on the fence about it.
Click to expand...

If there was a propriety patented mix of chemicals in the N-EXT product they could claim as thier own and get a patent on it, then I might buy it. Otherwise, any of the many companies in lawn care could easily copy the formualtion, granted it was worth it in the first place.


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## wardconnor

greengrass said:


> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.


I like it. I am not selling it. I also buy it with my personal money. I have also been putting it down for about 3 years though via a granular product


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## Killsocket

greengrass said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, but there's people in this forum that's having great results from Green county products as well. They have nothing to gain from sharing there results, so there's got to be something to there products. I haven't brought any yet because I've been on the fence about it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If there was a propriety patented mix of chemicals in the N-EXT product they could claim as thier own and get a patent on it, then I might buy it. Otherwise, any of the many companies in lawn care could easily copy the formualtion, granted it was worth it in the first place.
Click to expand...

I might be wrong, but I believe there are formulas out there that closely mimic some of the N-Ext products.


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## greengrass

wardconnor said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
> 
> 
> 
> I like it. I am not selling it. I also buy it with my personal money. I have also been putting it down for about 3 years though via a granular product
Click to expand...

I'm just wondering how I can get a 50# bag of humic acid like you do.


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## N LA Hacker

How do you know it's not 40# bags?


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## wardconnor

greengrass said:


> I'm just wondering how I can get a 50# bag of humic acid like you do.


Call your local nurseries that sell Fertilome products. You can find a dealer locator on the Fertilmoe website. Call and ask the dealer or nursery before you drive there if they sell "Humic." That is the same stuff.

Do not expect miracles overnight. It is not going to happen so do not get your hopes up. I like to think of humic acid via a granular product or a liquid product like Nex-t as more of a long term soil builder. Slow and steady.

Milorganite is the same exact thought process IMO. Why would you use Milo when you can get a synthetic product that technically works faster and better? (my opinion) You use Milo for the long term soil building effect. The OM that you are adding back in. One app of Milo will not give your soil overnight results. Its a slow and steady application of Milo or Humic Acid that will make the long term difference. (This is not gospel. This is all my opinion.)


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## wardconnor

N LA Hacker said:


> How do you know it's not 40# bags?


Listen here pal.. You really want me to ring your neck? They are certified 50# bags


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## greengrass

wardconnor said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just wondering how I can get a 50# bag of humic acid like you do.
> 
> 
> 
> Call your local nurseries that sell Fertilome products. You can find a dealer locator on the Fertilmoe website. Call and ask the dealer or nursery before you drive there if they sell "Humic." That is the same stuff.
> 
> Do not expect miracles overnight. It is not going to happen so do not get your hopes up. I like to think of humic acid via a granular product or a liquid product like Nex-t as more of a long term soil builder. Slow and steady.
> 
> Milorganite is the same exact thought process IMO. Why would you use Milo when you can get a synthetic product that technically works faster and better? (my opinion) You use Milo for the long term soil building effect. The OM that you are adding back in. One app of Milo will not give your soil overnight results. Its a slow and steady application of Milo or Humic Acid that will make the long term difference. (This is not gospel. This is all my opinion.)
Click to expand...

Ive got my stash of milorganite, just think the whole humic acid craze is making it an unaffordable prodcut, and was so suprisped that you get it for so cheap.


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## wardconnor

greengrass said:


> Ive got my stash of milorganite, just think the whole humic acid craze is making it an unaffordable prodcut, and was so suprisped that you get it for so cheap.


Have you seen the kelp4less Extreme Blend? It is not too expensive. You just have to dissolve it yourself and possibly strain it.

Us out here in UT are suckers for snake oil type products. Maybe that is why they sell so much of the granular huimic acid locally for so cheap.


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## greengrass

wardconnor said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ive got my stash of milorganite, just think the whole humic acid craze is making it an unaffordable prodcut, and was so suprisped that you get it for so cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen the kelp4less Extreme Blend? It is not too expensive. You just have to dissolve it yourself and possibly strain it.
> 
> Us out here in UT are suckers for snake oil type products. Maybe that is why they sell so much of the granular huimic acid locally for so cheap.
Click to expand...

You're not a sucker, your lawn proves that so. You are one of my favorite Youtubers channels. I believe humic acid has a beneficial result like you have proven with the roots in your yard. I just have a problem with with these upstart companies trying to capatalize on it. Try to buy a 10# bag on Amazon it will cost you a ridicuoulous amount.


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## greengrass

In summary, it's a really pisser offer! Would buy that t shirt.


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## wardconnor

Pisser offer shirt incoming


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## N LA Hacker

wardconnor said:


> N LA Hacker said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it's not 40# bags?
> 
> 
> 
> Listen here pal.. You really want me to ring your neck? They are certified 50# bags
Click to expand...

 :lol: :lol:


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## LawnSolo

Say all you want but few weeks ago I could barely dig in some holes to plant 3 pine trees. Last week, I planted 7 trees in and out of the same area and the shovel went in like butter.

The only difference was RGS + Air-8 products I applied a week prior. I firmly believe the N-Ext products are legit. I'm not sure if we are overpaying for the ingredients all I know it works for me.

I never had this results before even using Milo.

Maybe because I overseeded with new Cultivars? who knows


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## adgattoni

greengrass said:


> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.


I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.


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## NeVs

adgattoni said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.
Click to expand...

Advertising and selling through youtubers is a phenomenal marketing approach for a startup product. It is also far cheaper than some alternatives. The free word of mouth marketing afterwards is also great.

I would imagine in the future it may expand to additional online suppliers.


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## samjonester

Anyone have an idea for a 0-0-2 Micrgreen alternative? I like the idea of K, Fe, and S, along with other micros in a sprayable product. I'm fine mixing a powder like I've been doing with Kelp4Less Extreme recently. I don't want to buy a million things to make it, though


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## greengrass

adgattoni said:


> greengrass said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Youtubers praising the stuff are also the ones selling it. If the stuff is that great, the big box stores would have bought them off already.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm still skeptical of the GCF products specifically, but big box wouldn't carry this even if it did work. I've never seen half the products I use on my yard (celsius, PGR, soil surfactants, etc.) in a big box.
Click to expand...

That makes sense as well since most shoppers are Harry the handyman not willing to learn what is what and just pick up what is advertised.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

samjonester said:


> Anyone have an idea for a 0-0-2 Micrgreen alternative? I like the idea of K, Fe, and S, along with other micros in a sprayable product. I'm fine mixing a powder like I've been doing with Kelp4Less Extreme recently. I don't want to buy a million things to make it, though


I would start here. You'll need to look at their labels to see what product has the micros you want. Compare prices also. Maybe axilo?

https://search.domyown.com/search?w=micronutrients&af=cat1:lawngarden


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## samjonester

Hm. Thanks @Suburban Jungle Life. None of those really look cheaper per app than the 5 gal bottle of microgreen. However.., looking more closely at the K4L product line...

Mixing these looks like a killer combo:
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/micro-nutrient-pack/
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/powder-extreme-blend/

The extreme blend is their kelp, humic, fulvic, and amino acid products blended together.
The kelp gives potassium and a bunch of other micros, fortified by the nutrient pack, and the mineral content should be great. That's basically RGS and the Microgreen+GreenEffect combo mixed together.

Breaking down the costs:

K4L "clones" 
$28 (1 lb extreme) + $35 (1 lb micros) = $63 initial investment
Application Options
- As concentrate - mixing both to a 1 gal concentrate and using 3 oz / M
- Using 10g of each product dry / M
Results in just under $1.50 per application / M

RGS + Microgreen/
$115 (5 gal RGS) + $125 (5 gal Microgreen+GreenEffect) = $240 initial investment
Application
- 3 oz RGS / M + 12 oz Microgreen+GreenEffect / M
Results in something like $.50 RGS + $2.50 Microgreen+GreenEffect per app / M

The mineral breakdown in the Microgreen+GreenEffect looks better, and I'm not confident the 10g / M of the K4L minerals is a true clone of what matches between the products, but I know the K4L Extreme vs RGS cost breakdown is correct. Right now I can't stomach the price difference of the initial investment for the products.

I'm going to use those K4L products at 10g of each / M. That will cover ~45 M with each purchase, which for me is 6 applications on my whole property.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@samjonester Is this out of desire or are you showing deficient on micros in a soil test?


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## samjonester

My front (common bermuda) is a very steep slope and struggles to stay a deep green throughout the year. I suspect things leach more quickly with the slope, or are bound up. Fertilizers with iron really make it look nice, but not for a significant period of time. I'm not specifically targeting the other micros outside of the fact that I've heard K & S help with color in addition to the iron.

I am very interested in using something like RGS, as it seems like a promising product, and I thought I'd try to get some iron (and maybe K & S) down at the same time. I'm really just trying to lower the need to spread so much expensive Milorganite to get a color boost. I'm also trying to be a bit more targeted with when I fertilize with Nitrogen.

You're probably right, though, and it's overkill. I've never actually tested the front yard, so I probably should just do that first. Maybe there's a cheaper way to amend the "rgs clone" to get the color without all the extra micros.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@samjonester If you want the color, add liquid iron to your spray. For me, iron seems to last 2-3 weeks before I mow it off. If you use PGR in addition to iron, that will really give you a much darker green and extend it longer since you don't mow as often. Regarding the n-ext products and similar stuff, they are more for root growth and chelating nutrients. Do they increase the green color? Maybe, depending if you are having a deficiency. For max green if you aren't changing grass cultivars/types, do a soil test, have the ph around 6.5, correct any low macro/micros so they are not a limiting factor in plant growth/health, have a constant low N rate feeding, and then use pgr + iron. That will make it much darker but of course, if you start with a darker plant to begin with and then do all these, it will be even darker.

Regarding cost, I would stop buying milo if that's the case. Milo is a great way to start getting into lawn care. It's for beginners. Since you are here on TLF, use this resource to do much better than milo could ever do for you. You can just use urea/AMS, MAP/TSP, and SOP. Pound per pound for NPK, they are much much cheaper. Skip the organics as they are pricey. Buy pgr and iron. You will have a thick and dark green lawn. You don't need milo or any organics for that matter. They are slow release products but you can just break up your fert applications into every 2 weeks and now you will have a slow release program. No need to buy organics. Root cycling will increase the organic matter in the soil. No need to add it yourself. But, it's hard to do this properly without a good soil test so you know what to add...


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## adgattoni

samjonester said:


> My front (common bermuda) is a very steep slope and struggles to stay a deep green throughout the year. I suspect things leach more quickly with the slope, or are bound up. Fertilizers with iron really make it look nice, but not for a significant period of time. I'm not specifically targeting the other micros outside of the fact that I've heard K & S help with color in addition to the iron.
> 
> I am very interested in using something like RGS, as it seems like a promising product, and I thought I'd try to get some iron (and maybe K & S) down at the same time. I'm really just trying to lower the need to spread so much expensive Milorganite to get a color boost. I'm also trying to be a bit more targeted with when I fertilize with Nitrogen.
> 
> You're probably right, though, and it's overkill. I've never actually tested the front yard, so I probably should just do that first. Maybe there's a cheaper way to amend the "rgs clone" to get the color without all the extra micros.


For your slope, you might consider adding a wetting agent into your program. You might just be having difficulty keeping that area watered. A wetting agent like Tournament Ready would hold moisture in the soil better, vs. it running off the side of the slope. There's a thread about them here: Soil Surfactants/Wetting Agents.


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## samjonester

@adgattoni thanks for the suggestion! I don't have a problem with moisture on the slope, it's got plenty of organic matter, and the bermuda is pretty think and healthy. Even during dry spells, it stays fairly green and doesn't needle up. I'm unirrigated, and I rarely drag hoses on the bermuda front lawn.

---

@Suburban Jungle Life That sounds like a solid plan. I suppose I can't really put off the soil test any longer. I have been spraying PGR, so I've liked how easy it is to mix in K4L with an application. I will continue to use the K4L extreme blend because as you mentioned kelp, humic, fulvic, and aminos seem pretty proven as a way to create a healthier plant under the soil. I was looking for something to add to that application for color that doesn't require me to constantly be applying nitrogen. I'd already switched from Milo to a cheaper coated 35-0-5 w/ iron since I feel that I'm feeding the soil and roots with a better product than milo by using the K4L.

Eventually, I'd like to replace it with TTTF, as I think I'm a bit too far north for the bermuda, and as you mention, the common isn't super dark to begin with. That's not going to happen too soon, though. I reno'd my backyard this year, and I'll likely do the side yard next year. Without a sprinkler system, I'm trying to bite off renovations in smaller sections.

Conclusion: Soil test to see the current state of affairs. Then actually using science to decide whether it's better to tank mix specific nutrients (SOP for the potassium, FAS for iron...) with the PGR, or whether it's more effective to just mix in the micro package from K4L.

P.S. thanks for the fungicide guide as well!


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## Suburban Jungle Life

If you are already spraying PGR, add iron and AMS to it. You can get your N down along with your iron and PGR. You can also add in fungicide and herbicide if you wish. 1 spray with everything at once. FYI, some research has shown reduced efficacy of some herbicides when applied with humates (thought I read that somewhere). Not sure about the fungicides with humates though. Of course, do a jar test first to make sure it doesn't precipitate. The K4L extreme has N but I wonder if that's enough for bermuda. Add more N with AMS to the mix.

I am surprised you have bermuda in NJ. I'm not a big fan of bermuda though. I also feel I am a little cool for bermuda and I'm much farther south. Maybe consider zoysia if you want warm season? It looks a lot like KBG or a fine bladed TTTF and it is super cushy to walk on. You also don't ever need to overseed like TTTF. I think that would be a good substitute for bermuda and good for a steep slope. It also tends to out compete bermuda. Trying to rid TTTF of bermuda has me feeling a certain way about bermuda... I'd make 1 exception. As fast as it spreads, I would use it for golf, sports fields, and if you have kids/dogs tearing up the yard every day.


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## samjonester

the N in K4L extreme comes from the amino blend, and they state it helps with chelation, also maybe absorption. You're right though. at 10g powder / M, the amount of nitrogen is negligible as a fertilizer source. I was shared a link about types of fertilizers recently. AMS would be best in the early spring and late fall, but urea is cheaper when the weather is warmer.

I am surprised as well! I don't want a warm season lawn, but I just happened to inherit one when we bought the house last year. Many houses in my neighborhood have zoysia, and I do like it in the summer, but all of our warm season lawns take forever to green up. I'll be converting to TTTF when I finally pull the trigger. I likely won't include KBG in the TTTF like I did with my backyard.

Funny thing about NJ, though. My weather is pretty close to northern MD's weather. NJ has a few distinct weather zones: North Jersey with the mountains, the coast, and South Jersey. The bottom of the state (Cape May peninsula) actually has the same latitude as DC. I'm only about 70 miles north of that. I imagine my bermuda does almost as well as bermuda near you.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Got it. Well, when you do your reno, make sure to use every means necessary to kill that bermuda. I did a reno and after 4 apps of gly, I still had a few stragglers. I ran out of time and seeded anyway. I know I'll have to deal with it in the future now... Use "soul stealer"! That's probably your best bet and give yourself 2 months for constant apps.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Well to circle back I'm convinced Air-8 does something. I'm in overseed mode now and ground has been kept at capacity with irrigation. We've had gully washer thunderstorms interspersed with sunshine all day. I could see inches of standing water across my entire back lawn - worse than I've ever seen before likely due to the soil being saturated to begin with.

It's already starting to drain with very little standing water remaining. In the past this would have taken a day or even two.

I did one round of it at label rate on 9/1. I was very skeptical but I have to admit that it definitely did something.


----------



## social port

@Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k. 
And, did you water it in immediately after application?


----------



## NeVs

social port said:


> @Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
> And, did you water it in immediately after application?





Delmarva Keith said:


> I did one round of it at label rate on 9/1. I was very skeptical but I have to admit that it definitely did something.


----------



## jocoxVT

social port said:


> @Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
> And, did you water it in immediately after application?


Believe label rate of Air-8 is minimum 6oz/k. However, if he ran the "Compaction Cure" combo with RGS it suggest 6oz/k of RGS and 9oz/k Air-8. I believe it was Pauls Prime Cuts and Matt from the Grass Factor both have videos where they were running Air-8 at 9-12oz/k.


----------



## social port

@jocoxVT you are correct; the minimum rate is 6, not 3. My mistake. 
I'm still interested to know if people are getting better results using 6 vs 9. There may not be a difference. I'm just fishing.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> @Delmarva Keith do you happen to remember your rate? The label rate ranges from 3-9 oz/k.
> And, did you water it in immediately after application?


Rate was full label rate (go big or go home lol) 9 oz per 1,000. Mixed it 4 gal at a time in a 5 gal pail. 4 gal water plus 36 oz Air-8 for each 4,000 sq ft. Into the backpack with a double nozzle wand and Bob's your uncle. I used teejet turboteejet nozzles, 110 degree, 0.4 gpm, not that that would matter.

Did not water it in but there was a light rain the day of app and the day after so it didn't sit there long.

I plan to continue using it. Might even spring for some RGS. Number one for me for any new product is does it do any harm to anything. It did not; in fact the grass seemed to like it. Number two is does it do what it says - anecdotally, yup. :thumbup:

We got a soaker last night - still awaiting the weather data to see exactly how many inches of rain overnight, but something around 4", possibly more, in a short time. All the ground around here is already totally saturated from Thursday's daytime deluges. Water rose in the street to leave a water line on my front retaining wall, like a couple of feet. I awoke this AM to see a lake in my backyard. It's already all gone. Damn, would have had a private lake lol.


----------



## social port

@Delmarva Keith thanks for that information. My mix matches yours - about 36 oz in 4 gallons of water for about 4K. 
I do not mix in a bucket, though-just in my tank. Perhaps I should take that extra step.

IMO, go ahead and spring for the RGS. I still haven't figured out how AIR8+RGS = compaction cure (why, for example, would RGS help with compaction? Shouldn't AIR-8 be sufficient for compaction), but I had a very nice color response in my fescue after RGS apps-the kind of color response I'm willing to pay for.


----------



## synergy0852

@social port I believe the idea is that AIR8 opens up the soil and RGS drives the roots down deep and that helps to lengthen the effects of relieving the compaction. Just my thoughts and I'm far from a pro here so take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

social port said:


> @Delmarva Keith thanks for that information. My mix matches yours - about 36 oz in 4 gallons of water for about 4K.
> I do not mix in a bucket, though-just in my tank. Perhaps I should take that extra step.
> 
> IMO, go ahead and spring for the RGS. I still haven't figured out how AIR8+RGS = compaction cure (why, for example, would RGS help with compaction? Shouldn't AIR-8 be sufficient for compaction), but I had a very nice color response in my fescue after RGS apps-the kind of color response I'm willing to pay for.


Plant response is the litmus test. I'm sold. :thumbup:

I'm really looking forward to Matt Martin's Carbon-X too. If I understand it right it has RGS in it also. Now I really want to try it.


----------



## social port

synergy0852 said:


> @social port I believe the idea is that AIR8 opens up the soil and RGS drives the roots down deep and that helps to lengthen the effects of relieving the compaction. Just my thoughts and I'm far from a pro here so take it with a grain of salt.


That makes sense to me. Any time that I have attempted to understand exactly how AIR-8 works, I (with the help of others) end up arriving at two observations: In air-8, aeration happens by way of particle dispersions in the soil that are created by KOH and then again by enhanced root drive. 
It would then make sense that any product that further stimulates root drive would lead to less compaction.


----------



## social port

Delmarva Keith said:


> I'm really looking forward to Matt Martin's Carbon-X too. If I understand it right it has RGS in it also. Now I really want to try it.


Me too!
JohnP may or may not be getting a little preview. I'm tuned into that thread like sirius xm. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=6406

I'm excited to hear about your experience with RGS if and when you pull the trigger.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

My "imagination" of what Air-8 does is to expand the clay particles nonuniformly. To give credit where due, this is based on an interpretation of some of the research @g-man did.

If so, this would break up the "shingling" of compacted clay particles.



Edit: to circle back again I just got the hyperlocal weather data from U Del. It rained over 5" over the course of the past two days. It is raining lightly again now. No standing water. That means infiltration rates have to be markedly improved. At least for my soil type and specific conditions, the Air-8 stuff is admittedly incredible. I'd say if someone has issues with standing water or infiltration, give it a try. It doesn't seem it could hurt anything and might do for you what it did for me.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

@Delmarva Keith Glad you gave it a shot. Air8 worked well for me and seems to be doing well for you too! So, then comes the question: Would you consider doing a core aeration again after seeing results from air8? I doubt I will except if a yard needs a lot of lime.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Delmarva Keith Glad you gave it a shot. Air8 worked well for me and seems to be doing well for you too! So, then comes the question: Would you consider doing a core aeration again after seeing results from air8? I doubt I will except if a yard needs a lot of lime.


Ha! That's a loaded question. Every year I core aerate my yard and I get a bunch of these weird broad leafed weeds that have a disfigured black sort of radish or small carrot shaped root. I can't figure out what they are and they're hard to kill. The ground must be loaded with its seeds from decades ago that remain viable.

Next year I want to get more KBG in my mix. I had planned to slit seed it in this year but the scheduling with other things just didn't work out. I planted a fescue / KBG mix this year but I think it might have went down too late (9/30) to get much KBG going before it gets really cold.

So likely no, won't be core aerating next year. :thumbup: So far the plan for 2019 is Air-8 Spring & Fall, maybe some RGS or Carbon-X when that comes out, slit seed in about 3 lbs / 1,000 KBG first week of Sept and wait. If the KBG fails, I would still have time to dump some fescue seed on it.


----------



## ryeguy

Is it still beneficial to apply n-ext products in months when growth is winding down? I'm following the DIY rate (each product monthly @ 3oz/1k) and wondering if it's a waste to do this month and next even though growth is minimal.


----------



## social port

ryeguy said:


> Is it still beneficial to apply n-ext products in months when growth is winding down? I'm following the DIY rate (each product monthly @ 3oz/1k) and wondering if it's a waste to do this month and next even though growth is minimal.


I really don't know. Assuming that you are talking about things like Air-8, humic12, and RGS...From what I remember from my reading, I don't know of any guidance around the use of the products during the 'off-season.' Fall and spring seem to be the ideal time for applications for the products I've used.
I plan to use these products once more this year, but my high temps are still in the 60s. If they were at 40 or below, I'd knock it off for the year.

I'm not basing that on any definitive guidance. That is just how I am making my way with these products for right now.


----------



## slomo

ryeguy said:


> Is it still beneficial to apply n-ext products in months when growth is winding down? I'm following the DIY rate (each product monthly @ 3oz/1k) and wondering if it's a waste to do this month and next even though growth is minimal.


All you are doing is improving the soil. What's not to like?

slomo


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Will carbonx be affordable for the homeowner? Seems like it's only available in bulk and the pricing is through the roof.


----------



## ksturfguy

I thought they said in another thread that it was just available in bulk for now which to me says it wont even be available to homeowners. Maybe that will change.


----------



## JohnP

@Scagfreedom48z+ @ksturfguy from what I understand the supply chain is starting with the Pros first before moving to homeowner. There will be a homeowner line but we have to wait.

We're not the ones making moves for a full growing season of multiple properties in 2019. 

Give 'em time, in the mean time get on the list.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

JohnP said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ @ksturfguy from what I understand the supply chain is starting with the Pros first before moving to homeowner. There will be a homeowner line but we have to wait.
> 
> We're not the ones making moves for a full growing season of multiple properties i@Scagfreedom48z+
> Give 'em time, in the mean time get on the list[/url@Scagfreedom48z+
> 
> I did notice on the GCF website that there will be 50 lb bags that can cover 20k+ square feet


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

I did notice on the GCF website that there will be 50 lb bags that can cover 20k+ square feet. Hmmmm...


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> I did notice on the GCF website that there will be 50 lb bags that can cover 20k+ square feet. Hmmmm...


I believe that Pete was rolling his own fertilizer that is separate from CarbonX, because Matt even wondered where he was getting those huge chunks of humate in his mix from.

To add to this discussion, I'm going to see if I can use the penetrometer from @BenC again to take some measurements from around my yard. I know that I've had improvements with water infiltration in the front and back yard on my lot. I'm sold on the products.


----------



## Budstl

JohnP said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ @ksturfguy from what I understand the supply chain is starting with the Pros first before moving to homeowner. There will be a homeowner line but we have to wait.
> 
> We're not the ones making moves for a full growing season of multiple properties in 2019.
> 
> Give 'em time, in the mean time get on the list.


Fwiw i asked greene county fert on facebook when it would be available to home owners and the reply was spring 2019.


----------



## Jconnelly6b

**Deleted, my assumption was incorrect**


----------



## jocoxVT

Jconnelly6b said:


> I don't believe homeowners will be able to purchase the Carbon X directly, like we do for the GCF products. My understanding is Carbon X will only be sold in bulk (to distributors) and then we can purchase from them.


Someone can correct me if I am wrong but, while you would inevitably have to pay shipping even if its already incorporated in the price, The Lawn Care Nut has made several references that he would be carrying/selling for the homeowners. Actually said it in his most recent video as well.


----------



## JohnP

Jconnelly6b said:


> I don't believe homeowners will be able to purchase the Carbon X directly, like we do for the GCF products. My understanding is Carbon X will only be sold in bulk (to distributors) and then we can purchase from them.
> 
> So each one of us has to hope our local landscape supply, whether it be Site-One or Gina's Garden Center decides to buy a pallet or two to see how it does.


I guess it depends what you define as a distributor. Currently it's only being sold in bulk but Matt has said on his live streams that homeowners will be able to purchase, but it's a thing coming in the spring. Have to wait to find out more.


----------



## thegrassfactor

So to clear this up, Carbon X is currently on sale to professionals.

Starting in January, it will be available to homeowners as well. Both Pete and Allyn will distribute Carbon X as part of the GCF product line up.

Initially, it will be sold in 50lb bags until we can afford to build a second line in our plant to package it in smaller quantities.

The price per bag has not been determined yet as we're still trying to nail down all the logistics that go into moving individual bags vs tonnage. The goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace. We're having to negotiate with logistics companies based on forecasts which is tough to do since this is technically a "start up."

In select locations, Carbon X will be offered in independent garden centers, though those dates have not been confirmed.


----------



## NewLawnJon

thegrassfactor said:


> So to clear this up, Carbon X is currently on sale to professionals.
> 
> Starting in January, it will be available to homeowners as well. Both Pete and Allyn will distribute Carbon X as part of the GCF product line up.
> 
> Initially, it will be sold in 50lb bags until we can afford to build a second line in our plant to package it in smaller quantities.
> 
> The price per bag has not been determined yet as we're still trying to nail down all the logistics that go into moving individual bags vs tonnage. The goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace. We're having to negotiate with logistics companies based on forecasts which is tough to do since this is technically a "start up."
> 
> In select locations, Carbon X will be offered in independent garden centers, though those dates have not been confirmed.


For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.

For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.


----------



## Ridgerunner

> ...I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.





> ...goal is to keep the cost per pound of N comparable to other products on the online marketplace


What are you paying on an N/M basis if you bought online? The goal is to be competitive with on line sales of other N products. Keep in mind in addition to the N and K content, this product has additional benefits byway of biochar and RGS (HA/FA and kelp) and is designed to reduce leaching of N. Thereby making the N application more efficient in delivery by keeping it in the root zone longer or so I hear  (and the science tends to support this theory).


----------



## thegrassfactor

NewLawnJon said:


> For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.
> 
> For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.


50lbs is probably not a reasonable size, but it's the best we can do with the start up money we have.

Because of the added abilities of biochar, we are not recommending a 1lb of N rate, outside of renovation/new construction/remediation.

We also don't have the ability to get into retail locations like milorganite, but we will try our best to compete on price.


----------



## ksturfguy

50 LB bag would be sweet for my 20,000 property. Might not cover it all but close.


----------



## adgattoni

thegrassfactor said:


> NewLawnJon said:
> 
> 
> 
> For most home owners I don't think that a 50 pound bag is a reasonable size. At 1lb N/M it would cover 12,500 square feet.
> 
> For my yard I am currently using about 200lbs of Milo, so about $60 per app, so I am guessing this will be able to compete on a price per app.
> 
> 
> 
> 50lbs is probably not a reasonable size, but it's the best we can do with the start up money we have.
> 
> Because of the added abilities of biochar, we are not recommending a 1lb of N rate, outside of renovation/new construction/remediation.
> 
> We also don't have the ability to get into retail locations like milorganite, but we will try our best to compete on price.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't compete on price to get the milo fans. You've got a differentiated product with truly unique features. That's certainly worth a premium!


----------



## summithorn

Matt,
I know the carbon-x is new slow-release tech and I am very interested in the product, but how many suggested applications per year and what release can we expect? 8- 16 weeks, 4 months, etc.?? I know it will release different where I live compared to TN. and I know the product will change soil conditions over time and that will also alter the way the product is applied.


----------



## samjonester

What's the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?

I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John's marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X's landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?


----------



## ksturfguy

samjonester said:


> What's the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?
> 
> I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John's marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X's landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?


IF you click on the link you posted it says a 50lb bag will cover 22,000 sqft. Also suggested rate for High is .8 LBs of N per 1000, Med is .6 LBS of N per 1000 and Low is .4 LBS of N per 1000.


----------



## jocoxVT

samjonester said:


> What's the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?


They list recommended rates on the mid webpage. They give three suggestions of 0.8, 0.6 or 0.4lb N/M

http://www.greenecountyfert.com/wp-...™-fertilizer_specsheet_GreeneCountyFertCo.pdf


----------



## summithorn

Yes, it does list rates but how often? 4 times per growing season? Once a month? That will also have an impact on the price. Coated Urea is good but the release is unpredictable. I can do a Long-term product ( all summer release )but with heat and rain, it may be gone after two months. I believe Milo is suggested at 4 applications per year.


----------



## samjonester

Thanks, @ksturfguy & @jocoxVT. I did see that range listed, but didn't take it as high, medium, and low. I understand it's probably hard to give a blanket recommendation because situations vary widely, but that's a 2x window between low and high, and I assumed it was to give guidelines to pros, who will make more situational decisions.

To contrast, Milorganite gives .72lb N/M as a suggested rate for consumers. People then seem to interpret that rate as "because it's on the bag that must be the conservative low rate". I typically use somewhere around there as a max rate regardless of the fertilizer I'm applying, but I'm still new to this stuff and working on a single lawn. I don't have a lot of comparative data points to inform my decision.

I'm also wondering if @thegrassfactor will use "Carbon-X for the homeowner" as an avenue to promote similar cultural practices to what John talks about, and encourages with the suggested rates of 18-0-1 Green Punch, which is ~.25 lb N/M.

That's also a good point @summithorn, though Milo's 4x per year calendar is really just a marketing mnemonic device to get them into your heads throughout the year...


----------



## thegrassfactor

summithorn said:


> Matt,
> I know the carbon-x is new slow-release tech and I am very interested in the product, but how many suggested applications per year and what release can we expect? 8- 16 weeks, 4 months, etc.?? I know it will release different where I live compared to TN. and I know the product will change soil conditions over time and that will also alter the way the product is applied.


We are looking at 8-10 weeks depending on growing conditions.


----------



## NewLawnJon

Some of us have been taught to "Throw er down and hope for the best". &#128514;


----------



## thegrassfactor

samjonester said:


> What's the recommended application rate? How far will a 50 lb bag go?
> 
> I assume that including biochar and teaming up with GCF to include RGS means lower rates of N per M per application. A lot of John's marketing seems to focus on lower, more targeted, and more responsible rates of nitrogen. Carbon-X's landing page mentions a higher efficiency for nutrients applied. Do suggested application rates for home owners reflect those things?


It depends on what you're doing. Is your lawn in good shape and trying to maintain? Low rate. Establishment/renovating? High rate. Recovery, grow in, "winterizing" - Med rate.

Yes, John focused on higher efficiency liquid uptake. Yes, the product is designed to work alongside the GCF liquid program. Not everyone feels comfortable spraying, not everyone feels comfortable spreading. We felt like char was the best material we could use in a granular since we don't have the advantage of foliar uptake.


----------



## ksturfguy

Depending on the price, I hope to give it a shot. Also considering buying some of the other GCF products. I definitely think the theory behind all of this is intriguing. It's kind of surprising there is such limited research on the soil conditioning products and how much if any they actually help. Have read mixed things for sure. Some publications say they won't hurt anything but no real evidence they improve turf quality and other publications say they are very beneficial. To me it definitely makes sense that if you can improve the conditions of the soil that the turf is growing in then you should have healthier turf.

I checked with K-State University and they really haven't tested them yet. They did do a test on Humic Acid a few years ago to see if it helped with drought resistance but he said the year they did the test they got above average rainfall that summer and saw no difference between area with Humic and area without. Have reached out to other universities in area to get their opinions on some of these products but never heard back.

Just really hard for me to get on the Milorganite bandwagon. As someone with a bigger yard, it would just be so much more expensive for me to buy compared to my normal fertilizers.


----------



## thegrassfactor

samjonester said:


> I'm also wondering if @thegrassfactor will use "Carbon-X for the homeowner" as an avenue to promote similar cultural practices to what John talks about, and encourages with the suggested rates of 18-0-1 Green Punch, which is ~.25 lb N/M.


Yes, the mission in mind is a foundational ground up approach to lawn care. John's focus is reduced inputs. He teaches clearly and designs programs with that focus. He's an expert at that. I focus more on the chemistry and synergy between the inputs, surfactants, and binders. For instance, Carbon-X has a pH of 7, even with all the ammonium sulfate. That was important to me. We both share environmental goals as well - minimize our footprint, both in lawn care and manufacturing. I think the goal is to focus on our individual passions/strengths and find the synergy among them. He's a visionary. I like to mix beakers.


----------



## osuturfman

To the point that a 50 lb bag is not economical or ideal for a homeowner, you have to understand that Carbon X is really about a yearS long approach to building the soil N bank into a well-oiled machine. That 50 lb bag might be around 2-3 years for someone with a small lawn but, it will take at least that type of commitment to see the true benefit of the product. There will essentially be three "Ah Ha" moments when it comes to people who make this a big part of their overall program:

1.) Initial - You're going to see things pop, even at the low rate, from the Ammonium Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. Flat out, it will make grass look better.

2.) Mid Year 2 - Grass has been looking good for the past year, comes out of Year 2 spring charging hard and ready for a tough summer. You make it through to July/August and are impressed at the resiliency of the grasses ability to withstand extremes. This is the RGS and Composted Poultry Manure doing their jobs to provide the plant and soil with the right balance of growth hormones (see RGS) and steady N supply (see CPM).

3.) Mid Year 3 - You're realizing you can stretch your interval between apps a little longer, lower rates incrementally, and get through and come out of stress periods more predictably. This is the biochar, in concert with the other derivatives, driving the whole soil/grass system to a very high level of efficiency.

A 50 lb bag is just an initial commitment to staying the course over a period of yearS to experience all of these moments because they will happen. I know because I've used a very similar, and much more labor-intensive, approach to what @thegrassfactor has put into one bag. It will work and you'll be amazed if you commit.

Sounds like a hard sell but, I'm just speaking from experience.


----------



## thegrassfactor

ksturfguy said:


> Depending on the price, I hope to give it a shot. Also considering buying some of the other GCF products. I definitely think the theory behind all of this is intriguing. It's kind of surprising there is such limited research on the soil conditioning products and how much if any they actually help. Have read mixed things for sure. Some publications say they won't hurt anything but no real evidence they improve turf quality and other publications say they are very beneficial. To me it definitely makes sense that if you can improve the conditions of the soil that the turf is growing in then you should have healthier turf.
> 
> I checked with K-State University and they really haven't tested them yet. They did do a test on Humic Acid a few years ago to see if it helped with drought resistance but he said the year they did the test they got above average rainfall that summer and saw no difference between area with Humic and area without. Have reached out to other universities in area to get their opinions on some of these products but never heard back.
> 
> Just really hard for me to get on the Milorganite bandwagon. As someone with a bigger yard, it would just be so much more expensive for me to buy compared to my normal fertilizers.


http://mogic.org/wp-content/uploads/page/8/mogic-biostim-greens-ervin.pptx

The goal is building soil organic carbon/humus layer.

The PowerPoint cited demonstrates the products with greatest efficacy.


----------



## ksturfguy

thegrassfactor said:


> ksturfguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depending on the price, I hope to give it a shot. Also considering buying some of the other GCF products. I definitely think the theory behind all of this is intriguing. It's kind of surprising there is such limited research on the soil conditioning products and how much if any they actually help. Have read mixed things for sure. Some publications say they won't hurt anything but no real evidence they improve turf quality and other publications say they are very beneficial. To me it definitely makes sense that if you can improve the conditions of the soil that the turf is growing in then you should have healthier turf.
> 
> I checked with K-State University and they really haven't tested them yet. They did do a test on Humic Acid a few years ago to see if it helped with drought resistance but he said the year they did the test they got above average rainfall that summer and saw no difference between area with Humic and area without. Have reached out to other universities in area to get their opinions on some of these products but never heard back.
> 
> Just really hard for me to get on the Milorganite bandwagon. As someone with a bigger yard, it would just be so much more expensive for me to buy compared to my normal fertilizers.
> 
> 
> 
> http://mogic.org/wp-content/uploads/page/8/mogic-biostim-greens-ervin.pptx
> 
> The goal is building soil organic carbon/humus layer.
> 
> The PowerPoint cited demonstrates the products with greatest efficacy.
Click to expand...

Thanks I'll read that over. One of the articles I read talking about the benefits cited the Virginia Tech studies.


----------



## thegrassfactor

osuturfman said:


> To the point that a 50 lb bag is not economical or ideal for a homeowner, you have to understand that Carbon X is really about a yearS long approach to building the soil N bank into a well-oiled machine. That 50 lb bag might be around 2-3 years for someone with a small lawn but, it will take at least that type of commitment to see the true benefit of the product. There will essentially be three "Ah Ha" moments when it comes to people who make this a big part of their overall program:
> 
> 1.) Initial - You're going to see things pop, even at the low rate, from the Ammonium Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. Flat out, it will make grass look better.
> 
> 2.) Mid Year 2 - Grass has been looking good for the past year, comes out of Year 2 spring charging hard and ready for a tough summer. You make it through to July/August and are impressed at the resiliency of the grasses ability to withstand extremes. This is the RGS and Composted Poultry Manure doing their jobs to provide the plant and soil with the right balance of growth hormones (see RGS) and steady N supply (see CPM).
> 
> 3.) Mid Year 3 - You're realizing you can stretch your interval between apps a little longer, lower rates incrementally, and get through and come out of stress periods more predictably. This is the biochar, in concert with the other derivatives, driving the whole soil/grass system to a very high level of efficiency.
> 
> A 50 lb bag is just an initial commitment to staying the course over a period of yearS to experience all of these moments because they will happen. I know because I've used a very similar, and much more labor-intensive, approach to what @thegrassfactor has put into one bag. It will work and you'll be amazed if you commit.
> 
> Sounds like a hard sell but, I'm just speaking from experience.


Wow. Please understand what I mean when I say thank you. So very well put.


----------



## osuturfman

thegrassfactor said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> To the point that a 50 lb bag is not economical or ideal for a homeowner, you have to understand that Carbon X is really about a yearS long approach to building the soil N bank into a well-oiled machine. That 50 lb bag might be around 2-3 years for someone with a small lawn but, it will take at least that type of commitment to see the true benefit of the product. There will essentially be three "Ah Ha" moments when it comes to people who make this a big part of their overall program:
> 
> 1.) Initial - You're going to see things pop, even at the low rate, from the Ammonium Sulfate and Ferrous Sulfate. Flat out, it will make grass look better.
> 
> 2.) Mid Year 2 - Grass has been looking good for the past year, comes out of Year 2 spring charging hard and ready for a tough summer. You make it through to July/August and are impressed at the resiliency of the grasses ability to withstand extremes. This is the RGS and Composted Poultry Manure doing their jobs to provide the plant and soil with the right balance of growth hormones (see RGS) and steady N supply (see CPM).
> 
> 3.) Mid Year 3 - You're realizing you can stretch your interval between apps a little longer, lower rates incrementally, and get through and come out of stress periods more predictably. This is the biochar, in concert with the other derivatives, driving the whole soil/grass system to a very high level of efficiency.
> 
> A 50 lb bag is just an initial commitment to staying the course over a period of yearS to experience all of these moments because they will happen. I know because I've used a very similar, and much more labor-intensive, approach to what @thegrassfactor has put into one bag. It will work and you'll be amazed if you commit.
> 
> Sounds like a hard sell but, I'm just speaking from experience.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow. Please understand what I mean when I say thank you. So very well put.
Click to expand...

You're welcome. Takes a lot of courage to do a startup, especially on something like this. Looking forward to getting my hands on a few pallets this spring. Just tag me as @osuturfman in the marketing testimonial so I don't get in trouble. :nod:


----------



## samjonester

thegrassfactor said:


> It depends on what you're doing. Is your lawn in good shape and trying to maintain? Low rate. Establishment/renovating? High rate. Recovery, grow in, "winterizing" - Med rate.


Thanks for the no-nonsense translation.



thegrassfactor said:


> We are looking at 8-10 weeks depending on growing conditions.


It seems like those rates coupled with the interval you described will create a greater impact of with lower levels of input.



thegrassfactor said:


> Yes, the mission in mind is a foundational ground up approach to lawn care. John's focus is reduced inputs. He teaches clearly and designs programs with that focus. He's an expert at that. I focus more on the chemistry and synergy between the inputs, surfactants, and binders. For instance, Carbon-X has a pH of 7, even with all the ammonium sulfate. That was important to me. We both share environmental goals as well - minimize our footprint, both in lawn care and manufacturing. I think the goal is to focus on our individual passions/strengths and find the synergy among them. He's a visionary. I like to mix beakers.


I think you two will continue to make a great team, and really impact the industry. Good work! Thanks for sharing with homeowners, too.


----------



## Pete1313

@thegrassfactor, I'm wondering if you or anyone else can comment on the % breakdown of what is in Carbon-X, as I'm looking at it hard to see if it makes sense to use it next year. From the online label and % of sulfur I can guesstimate that their is ~50% AMS, but am curious about the amounts of CCM, biochar, RGS, and if any other N source. I'm currently planning on using either AMS and Anderson's humic DG, MESA and Anderson's humic DG, or a combination of the 2, but wondering if Carbon-X would be a better fit. I have 38+k sq ft, so cost/benefit comes into play, but am excited about the product and the slow release of AMS. If I do decide on Carbon-X, I would be looking at a pallet from the pre-order.


----------



## thegrassfactor

Pete1313 said:


> I'm wondering if you or anyone else can comment on the % breakdown of what is in Carbon-X, as I'm looking at it hard to see if it makes sense to use it next year. From the online label and % of sulfur I can guesstimate that their is ~50% AMS, but am curious about the amounts of CCM, biochar, RGS, and if any other N source. I'm currently planning on using either AMS and Anderson's humic DG, MESA and Anderson's humic DG, or a combination of the 2, but wondering if Carbon-X would be a better fit. I have 38+k sq ft, so cost/benefit comes into play, but am excited about the product and the slow release of AMS. If I do decide on Carbon-X, I would be looking at a pallet from the pre-order.


I can give that to you privately, but understand it's proprietary information and given we are a start up, we have to be very protective of it.

There is 1oz in 1lb of RGS.

<attorney pulled the plug on this>

and a few other components i prefer not to list.


----------



## Pete1313

I completely understand, and am interested. Shoot me a PM, or if there is a better method of contact just let me know.


----------



## Methodical

viva_oldtrafford said:


> LouisvilleGrubber said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd also be curious to know who is using these products and how they are working. Where are people buying them? _*The fact that I've only seen these products on YouTube channels is a bit of a yellow flag for me*_, but I could be talked off that ledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Rightfully so. These products come with claims that cannot be backed by science. Sure, you'll get some anecdotal stories of positive results, but nothing more. If you have the disposable income, and have some free time, by all means, give these products a try (spoiler...don't expect any real results from the super, duper, mega liquid aerification product). My favorite professor at Penn State, Dr. McNitt, would always tell us something along the lines of "if the product really works, the industry will let you know. You won't need a salesperson to fill you in".
Click to expand...

I use the N-Ext products, but only the RGS, Humic 12 and GreeNe Effect. Below is how I use them in my program.

*GreeNe Effect:*
I can affirm that the GreeNe Effect definitely works in making the lawn green. I used it in the Summer months to green the lawn when I use no fertilizers and recently (November 8th) I applied it to my lawn and the lawn is still a deep green (see photos below). I want to see how long it lasts and how long I can keep the grass green deep into the winter months. I plan to make another application in December, weather permitting. The area in the 2nd photo was badly damaged by fungus during the September rainstorms, along with the high humidity. From the calculation below, you can see the amount of N applied is very negligible, so the iron is doing the work. It costs me $10.40 per application on a 8k sq' lawn ($104/5 gallon or $20.80/gallon. At 8 oz/1k sq' (@ 8k sq'), I get 2 applications per gallon or $10.40 per application or $1.30/1k sq').

Liquid Fertilizer calculation: GreeNe Effect

2.5 gallon of product = 26.25lbs
2.5 gallons = 320 oz (128+128+64)
1 oz of product = .08lbs (26.25/320)
8 oz of product x .08lb = .64lb/1k
*.07N x .64lb = 0.0448lbs of N\1k per application*

*Humic 12:*
What you'll need to understand is that this is not going to make your lawn green per se, but instead, it helps the lawn more effectively use what's there. This helps condition your dirt and is not an overnight remedy for jacked up soil. I see long term solution with this product. So, if you are thinking it will green up the lawn like fertilizer, you will be disappointed and barking up the wrong tree. Additionally, I've found a more potent Humic product (70% vs 12%) and applied it this fall and will do so again in the spring - again a long term solution with 2 applications per year (see below).

Andersons Humic DG Granular Soil Conditioner

*RGS:*
Again a long term solution that is suppose to help the grass during harsh weather conditions. Since it's suppose to stimulate rooth growth and help the grass withstand heat stress etc, I applied it this fall as part of my winterizer application. So, basically I use RGS like Potassium, if you will.

*Air8 or Detathch:*
I am not convinced that these products work nor replaces the regular 'ole mechanical stuff because no one has conducted real testing that has convinced me, so I will continue to use mechanical means to Aerate or Dethatch my lawn whenever it's needed.

To sum it up, I am working on a long term solution to a healthy lawn and therefore I am focused on feeding and conditioning the soil with these products. My plan is to use more organic fertilizers this season.

Note: I renovated my lawn in fall 2017 with a complete kill off and to jump start the soil conditioning process, I rototilled compost about 6-8" into the clay soil and top dressed the lawn the following spring.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Nice write up! Your alternative to Humic 12 seems to be a better alternative for the price.


----------



## NoslracNevok

@Methodical What does the grass look like meow?


----------



## Methodical

NoslracNevok said:


> @Methodical What does the grass look like meow?


Do you mean what does the grass look like now?


----------



## Methodical

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Nice write up! Your alternative to Humic 12 seems to be a better alternative for the price.


Thanks. I wish I could get that stuff locally because shipping is high, but at 2x/year I am ok with it.


----------



## NoslracNevok

@Methodical yes


----------



## Methodical

I just went outside and took photos of the same area.

Btw, I just got finish cutting the grass and there was a little bit of growth. I use the Timemaster and filled the bag with clippings (7600 sq'). Cutting height 2.5"

Note: the quality of the photos may not be the same as my previous post as it seems the uploader may have resized them and changed the resolution affecting the fine detail of the grass blades, but I think it still ok for viewing.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Grass still looks pretty good to me


----------



## gpbrown60

Additionally, I've found a more potent Humic product (70% vs 12%) and applied it this fall and will do so again in the spring - again a long term solution with 2 applications per year (see below).

Methodical, 
Just an FYI. You can get Anderson's Humic DG 40 lbs on the AM Leonard website for $42.99 a bag. I purchase mine there and wait until they offer free shipping. It is the best price I have found.

gp


----------



## Methodical

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Grass still looks pretty good to me


Thanks


----------



## Methodical

gpbrown60 said:


> Additionally, I've found a more potent Humic product (70% vs 12%) and applied it this fall and will do so again in the spring - again a long term solution with 2 applications per year (see below).
> 
> Methodical,
> Just an FYI. You can get Anderson's Humic DG 40 lbs on the AM Leonard website for $42.99 a bag. I purchase mine there and wait until they offer free shipping. It is the best price I have found.
> 
> gp


Thanks for the heads up. I am going to check them out as they may have some winter specials. Do they have a pattern for when they offer free shipping?


----------



## gpbrown60

Methodical said:


> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, I've found a more potent Humic product (70% vs 12%) and applied it this fall and will do so again in the spring - again a long term solution with 2 applications per year (see below).
> 
> Methodical,
> Just an FYI. You can get Anderson's Humic DG 40 lbs on the AM Leonard website for $42.99 a bag. I purchase mine there and wait until they offer free shipping. It is the best price I have found.
> 
> gp
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. I am going to check them out as they may have some winter specials. Do they have a pattern for when they offer free shipping?
Click to expand...

A.M. Leonard just had a black Friday free shipping sale. I am uncertain when the next one is. You can sign up and get notified via email of their periodic sales and offers.


----------



## Methodical

gpbrown60 said:


> Methodical said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Additionally, I've found a more potent Humic product (70% vs 12%) and applied it this fall and will do so again in the spring - again a long term solution with 2 applications per year (see below).
> 
> Methodical,
> Just an FYI. You can get Anderson's Humic DG 40 lbs on the AM Leonard website for $42.99 a bag. I purchase mine there and wait until they offer free shipping. It is the best price I have found.
> 
> gp
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the heads up. I am going to check them out as they may have some winter specials. Do they have a pattern for when they offer free shipping?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> A.M. Leonard just had a black Friday free shipping sale. I am uncertain when the next one is. You can sign up and get notified via email of their periodic sales and offers.
Click to expand...

Great. That's what I will do.

Thanks again...Al


----------



## gpbrown60

Great. That's what I will do.

Thanks again...Al
[/quote]

You bet! Not sure if you have seen this Lesco product. Apparently, it just came out. 
https://www.lesco.com/products/lesco-carbonpro


----------



## Methodical

No. I had not seen this. Thanks for the info.


----------



## Delmarva Keith

gpbrown60 said:


> You bet! Not sure if you have seen this Lesco product. Apparently, it just came out.
> https://www.lesco.com/products/lesco-carbonpro


That's a good sign. The big guns are jumping on the carbon bandwagon and they appear to have test results. The results are consistent with what Matt has been saying. Matt @thegrassfactor , you better get ready to increase production  :thumbup:


----------



## iFisch3224

Interesting -

Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.


----------



## gpbrown60

iFisch3224 said:


> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.


I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
gp


----------



## Methodical

gpbrown60 said:


> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
Click to expand...

Is that the homeowner or business price?

FYI. It's only 2 Oz per gallon, per 1k sq', so it may be a challenger, but I have not done the math yet.


----------



## iFisch3224

Methodical said:


> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the homeowner or business price?
> 
> FYI. It's only 2 Oz per gallon, per 1k sq', so it may be a challenger, but I have not done the math yet.
Click to expand...

RGS is 3oz/1k - but I tend to use 6oz/1k.

4 gal of RGS is $95 shipped I believe.


----------



## gpbrown60

Methodical said:


> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Is that the homeowner or business price?
> 
> FYI. It's only 2 Oz per gallon, per 1k sq', so it may be a challenger, but I have not done the math yet.
Click to expand...

Homeowner price and it's (2) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. for the first application followed by (1) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. per month or every time fertilizer is applied
I have 10K square feet of lawn so:
RGS at 3oz per K = 4.3 applications for $88 (free shipping) or $20+ an application
Lesco at 2 oz per K, then 1 oz afterward = 11.8 applications for $134 (local pickup)or $11+ an application

I think I did that correctly. I guess the proof is in the results!


----------



## Methodical

That mean the business cost should be significantly less. SiteOne always nails the homeowner in pricing.


----------



## iFisch3224

gpbrown60 said:


> Methodical said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the homeowner or business price?
> 
> FYI. It's only 2 Oz per gallon, per 1k sq', so it may be a challenger, but I have not done the math yet.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Homeowner price and it's (2) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. for the first application followed by (1) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. per month or every time fertilizer is applied
> I have 10K square feet of lawn so:
> RGS at 3oz per K = 4.3 applications for $88 (free shipping) or $20+ an application
> Lesco at 2 oz per K, then 1 oz afterward = 11.8 applications for $134 (local pickup)or $11+ an application
> 
> I think I did that correctly. I guess the proof is in the results!
Click to expand...

My math is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong?

5 gallons RGS = 640oz ($5 off coupon - cousineddie)

https://thelawncarenut.com/collections/soil-optimization/products/n-ext-rgs-5-gallon

10k sq/ft lawn @ 3oz per application = 30oz RGS

At 30oz of RGS per app - you get 21.33 applications in 640oz (5 gallons), or 21 applications.

$100 divided by 21 applications $4.76/application.

RGS is 2.31x cheaper then Lesco's product @ Homeowner pricing.


----------



## Methodical

iFisch3224 said:


> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Methodical said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is that the homeowner or business price?
> 
> FYI. It's only 2 Oz per gallon, per 1k sq', so it may be a challenger, but I have not done the math yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Homeowner price and it's (2) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. for the first application followed by (1) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. per month or every time fertilizer is applied
> I have 10K square feet of lawn so:
> RGS at 3oz per K = 4.3 applications for $88 (free shipping) or $20+ an application
> Lesco at 2 oz per K, then 1 oz afterward = 11.8 applications for $134 (local pickup)or $11+ an application
> 
> I think I did that correctly. I guess the proof is in the results!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> My math is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong?
> 
> 5 gallons RGS = 640oz ($5 off coupon - cousineddie)
> 
> https://thelawncarenut.com/collections/soil-optimization/products/n-ext-rgs-5-gallon
> 
> 10k sq/ft lawn @ 3oz per application = 30oz RGS
> 
> At 30oz of RGS per app - you get 21.33 applications in 640oz (5 gallons), or 21 applications.
> 
> $100 divided by 21 applications $4.76/application.
> 
> RGS is 2.31x cheaper then Lesco's product @ Homeowner pricing.
Click to expand...

He is doing the math for 1 gallon to make a direct comparison to 1 gallon of the Lesco product. Actually, he will get 12.8 applications (128/10) and his cost will be $10.47 per application (134/12.8).


----------



## iFisch3224

Methodical said:


> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Homeowner price and it's (2) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. for the first application followed by (1) oz per 1,000 sq. ft. per month or every time fertilizer is applied
> I have 10K square feet of lawn so:
> RGS at 3oz per K = 4.3 applications for $88 (free shipping) or $20+ an application
> Lesco at 2 oz per K, then 1 oz afterward = 11.8 applications for $134 (local pickup)or $11+ an application
> 
> I think I did that correctly. I guess the proof is in the results!
> 
> 
> 
> My math is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong?
> 
> 5 gallons RGS = 640oz ($5 off coupon - cousineddie)
> 
> https://thelawncarenut.com/collections/soil-optimization/products/n-ext-rgs-5-gallon
> 
> 10k sq/ft lawn @ 3oz per application = 30oz RGS
> 
> At 30oz of RGS per app - you get 21.33 applications in 640oz (5 gallons), or 21 applications.
> 
> $100 divided by 21 applications $4.76/application.
> 
> RGS is 2.31x cheaper then Lesco's product @ Homeowner pricing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He is doing the math for 1 gallon to make a direct comparison to 1 gallon of the Lesco product. Actually, he will get 12.8 applications (128/10) and his cost will be $10.47 per application (134/12.8).
Click to expand...

But the cost of 1 gallon of RGS is NOT $88. So the math is still wrong..

At the end of the day 1 gallon of Lesco Carbon Pro costs as much as 5 gallons of RGS. (Actually about $40 more with tax)


----------



## CenlaLowell

gpbrown60 said:


> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
Click to expand...

I really hope this is not the price. This is crazy the money companies are trying to make putting cheap products in a bottle for you. I hope people just support N Ext instead of this.


----------



## Methodical

iFisch3224 said:


> Methodical said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My math is a little different. Maybe I'm wrong?
> 
> 5 gallons RGS = 640oz ($5 off coupon - cousineddie)
> 
> https://thelawncarenut.com/collections/soil-optimization/products/n-ext-rgs-5-gallon
> 
> 10k sq/ft lawn @ 3oz per application = 30oz RGS
> 
> At 30oz of RGS per app - you get 21.33 applications in 640oz (5 gallons), or 21 applications.
> 
> $100 divided by 21 applications $4.76/application.
> 
> RGS is 2.31x cheaper then Lesco's product @ Homeowner pricing.
> 
> 
> 
> He is doing the math for 1 gallon to make a direct comparison to 1 gallon of the Lesco product. Actually, he will get 12.8 applications (128/10) and his cost will be $10.47 per application (134/12.8).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> But the cost of 1 gallon of RGS is NOT $88. So the math is still wrong..
> 
> At the end of the day 1 gallon of Lesco Carbon Pro costs as much as 5 gallons of RGS. (Actually about $40 more with tax)
Click to expand...

Yeah your right. I blew past the cost and was just focused on the Lesco stuff. I don't know where he got the $88 from, but it looks like maybe he's using the Bio-Stimulant kit price.


----------



## Methodical

CenlaLowell said:


> gpbrown60 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> iFisch3224 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting -
> 
> Curious how this compares price-wise - ingredient-wise, it looks like a direct competitor to RGS.
> 
> 
> 
> I just called my local Lesco and it is $134 a gallon.
> gp
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I really hope this is not the price. This is crazy the money companies are trying to make putting cheap products in a bottle for you. I hope people just support N Ext instead of this.
Click to expand...

That's where my money is - on the N-Ext products. Who knows, it could be a rebranded RGS product from Green County. I'm already invested in their RGS, GreeNe Effect and Humic 12.

Lesco price is ridiculously high and they nail the homeowner every time. They won't be getting my money even at the business cost because N-Ext is so much cheaper for 5 gallons.


----------



## adgattoni

While we're comparing biostimulant costs. MicroGreene has 8% humic/2% kelp versus RGS at 6%/3%, respectively. I'm entertaining the idea of using just MicroGreene for both kelp and micros. In that case I can replace FEature and add humic/kelp to the routine and get a bit of cost savings. Label rates are far higher on MicroGreene so comparing cost per app using those rates would be higher. However, I plan on simply spoon feeding 3-6oz/1k on a regular basis instead. EDIT: I was looking at blackout rates. Looks like normal rates are 1-2gal/acre (roughly 3-6oz/1k), the same rate as RGS.

I'm doing some test plots next year with a wider range of products before I do this, though. I'd like to compare liquid humic with granular HumicDG from Anderson's. If efficacy is even roughly equivalent with granular, the cost per app would blow GCF products out of the water. More on that to come...


----------



## bigmks

Well it appears from youtube that Paul for domy own.com has joined forces with John Perry as an employee of Greene County Fertilizer. There will be more videos on do it yourself applications using the Greene County Fertilizer.


----------



## bigmks

https://youtu.be/ikjmF9BZ5-0


----------



## adgattoni

bigmks said:


>


I had a lot of trouble making it through the intro of that video...


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

adgattoni said:


> bigmks said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had a lot of trouble making it through the intro of that video...
Click to expand...

Crepe murder!!!


----------



## CenlaLowell

I will try Air 8 & RGS this season. I will try to update my lawn journal with the good and bad from those products. I don't expect much if anything the first year though. We shall see.


----------



## r2sie2

I just went to go buy some product to find that none of the N-Ext products can be shipped to California anymore? Does anyone know what happened or if it's going to be available to California in the future? It doesn't look like Carbon-X is going to be available to us either. I'm so bummed right now.


----------



## Greendoc

In California and Hawaii, these products are classified as PGR's. As such, they are subject to all kinds of testing and verification similar to what Primo had to go through.


----------



## r2sie2

Greendoc said:


> In California and Hawaii, these products are classified as PGR's. As such, they are subject to all kinds of testing and verification similar to what Primo had to go through.


So you think we're SOL then?


----------



## Greendoc

yes.


----------



## Phaseshift

Does anyone have a custom mix or alternative to N-ext products for us here in California to use?


----------



## ktgrok

Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).


----------



## Bigdrumnc

So how are everyone's lawns responding to the bio stimulants?


----------



## Miller_Low_Life

Bigdrumnc said:


> So how are everyone's lawns responding to the bio stimulants?


I honestly don't know. Air-8 and Dethatch seems to work where I've had issues in the past, but I don't know about the Humic and RGS. More time will tell I suppose?


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## Bigdrumnc

Has any one developed a full blown plan for fescue using n-ext products and care to share? I am skeptical but I went a head and bought a bio stim pack. I put down the first application Sunday. I am curious about the seeding package.......and incorporating it into a program. My trouble is I have already invested in my seed, starter, and next round of fertilizer. I am going to go with Pete at gci 's suggestion of starter (my granular) RGS and Humic 12 at seeding.


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## Guest

Bigdrumnc, any special reason why you are going with RGS and Humic 12 instead of Air8? I kind of though air8 would be a good choice at seeding.


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## adgattoni

Bigdrumnc said:


> So how are everyone's lawns responding to the bio stimulants?


I have a few test plots going. So far not really much difference to be honest. I will be pulling profile shots at the end of the season to compare with the rest of my lawn. After next season I think I will do two soil tests: one test on soil from the test plots, and another on soil from the rest of the lawn. Based on the claims I would expect to see a noticeable difference in CEC. If that proves true I will begin using humics on my entire lawn despite lack of visible differences (higher CEC will let me add more calcium, which should help loosen my hard clay soil).


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## Phaseshift

ktgrok said:


> Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).


Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?


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## Phaseshift

Any paces in Nevada sell N-ext products?


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## BobRoss

r2sie2 said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> 
> In California and Hawaii, these products are classified as PGR's. As such, they are subject to all kinds of testing and verification similar to what Primo had to go through.
> 
> 
> 
> So you think we're SOL then?
Click to expand...

California makes it an absolute pain to sell into with all their state-specific rules and regulations. I know of a lot of people that just decide to cut sales to the state due to this. Humic probably causes cancer known to the state of California or some crazy thing like that.


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## lawn789

Im not sure if this has been discussed but I was wondering if the 3% sulfur would effect pH levels in a lawn? I see some of the fertilizer type products of theirs contains sulfur.


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## ktgrok

Phaseshift said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?
Click to expand...

No idea, actually, it was just easy to buy off amazon for a smaller amount/investment.


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## ryeguy

Phaseshift said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?
Click to expand...

SLS is just soap, what n-ext product are you comparing it to?


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## Phaseshift

ryeguy said:


> Phaseshift said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> SLS is just soap, what n-ext product are you comparing it to?
Click to expand...

This one:
Super Seaweed Humic Fulvic Acid... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07QPB5H63?ref=ppx_pop_mob_ap_share


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## ktgrok

ryeguy said:


> Phaseshift said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you get Simple Gro Solutions stuff there? They have a liquid kelp/humic/fulvic acid, lots of fertilizer products, I think a thatch product (or that might be lawn star).
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> SLS is just soap, what n-ext product are you comparing it to?
Click to expand...

He was using SLS to abbreviate Simple Lawn Solutions, the brand that makes an alternate product available to him, not to abbreviate Sodium Laureth Sulfate


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## NewLawnJon

Phaseshift said:


> Does anyone have a custom mix or alternative to N-ext products for us here in California to use?


As of today you are in luck and can now get Next products.


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## ryeguy

ktgrok said:


> ryeguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phaseshift said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I can, I actually ordered some the other day. Is there any difference between SLS and N-ext?
> 
> 
> 
> SLS is just soap, what n-ext product are you comparing it to?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He was using SLS to abbreviate Simple Lawn Solutions, the brand that makes an alternate product available to him, not to abbreviate Sodium Laureth Sulfate
Click to expand...

Oh wow that makes way more sense. Especially since it's in the quoted text. My mind went to SLS because some people mention that along with air8.


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## Phaseshift

NewLawnJon said:


> Phaseshift said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a custom mix or alternative to N-ext products for us here in California to use?
> 
> 
> 
> As of today you are in luck and can now get Next products.
Click to expand...

Wait what? What do you mean?


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## lambert

Are y'all applying humic acid with systemic pesticides -- I've seen many youtubers do just that. After coming across this article I am concerned that that may be a detrimental practice:

https://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/newsletters/hortupdate/hortupdate_archives/2002/jun02/art4jun.html

From the article: "Both were studies that demonstrate how strongly humic acid can absorb fungicides and herbicides. Indications are that surface applications of humic acid or humate can significantly reduce the effectiveness of systemic pesticides by reducing their absorption by plant roots and soil-borne pathogens and insects."


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## NewLawnJon

Phaseshift said:


> NewLawnJon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phaseshift said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone have a custom mix or alternative to N-ext products for us here in California to use?
> 
> 
> 
> As of today you are in luck and can now get Next products.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wait what? What do you mean?
Click to expand...

Green County Fertilizer can now ship all of their products to California, Idaho, Oregon, and Washington. They made the announcement on 8/1


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## Bigdrumnc

So who is incorporating the 18-0-1 green punch into their tttf program? How much and how often? I am interested in it, but also afraid to under/ over applicants.


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## cpVA

I am using the green punch and really like it. Sprayed the max amount of 16oz/1000 without any issues. I believe at that application rate it is equal to 1/4 pound of nitrogen so it is forgiving. No need to worry about over or under applying. Recomend to spray in the evening and water in and mix it with the 0-0-2 microgreen. Also I am heading to the obx Monday to spray a yard and have extra if you need some. Im driving from VA so good chance you might be near my path.


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## Bigdrumnc

Ok pm me


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## beardizzle1

How's everyone feeling about the N-Ext products they've purchased? I purchased the Bio-Stim pack this year and seem to get good results. However, I don't really have much to compare them to as it's year 1 for me. Lawn has responded well to everything and I've had neighbors comment on the lawn.


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## Delmarva Keith

beardizzle1 said:


> How's everyone feeling about the N-Ext products they've purchased? I purchased the Bio-Stim pack this year and seem to get good results. However, I don't really have much to compare them to as it's year 1 for me. Lawn has responded well to everything and I've had neighbors comment on the lawn.


Very hard to say due to lack of controls. My seat of the pants sense after trying the products is I get better quality and more resilient turf with less frequent fertilizer. Is it due to the Next products, different weather this year, the seed I used last Fall, moon phase, random chance . . . don't know. My turf greened up earlier this year and has been doing much better than usual by this point of Summer. Well enough that I plan to skip the annual overseed ritual this Fall. Something is different from prior years and at least anecdotally points to the Next products.


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## beardizzle1

@Delmarva Keith that's good to hear about your less frequent fert use.. that's what the products are supposed to do as N-Ext stand for Nitrogen Extension.


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## mytmouse

I'm interested on everyone's plan on what they're using in conjunction with seeding. I'm doing an overseed and was thinking about putting down air-8 6 oz per thousand this week. And RGS (3oz/k) and Humic (6 oz/k) the day before aerating or day of. I'm thinking of doing it right after I aerate to take advantage of the exposed soil. Too much? Just right?


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## ksturfguy

Delmarva Keith said:


> beardizzle1 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How's everyone feeling about the N-Ext products they've purchased? I purchased the Bio-Stim pack this year and seem to get good results. However, I don't really have much to compare them to as it's year 1 for me. Lawn has responded well to everything and I've had neighbors comment on the lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> Very hard to say due to lack of controls. My seat of the pants sense after trying the products is I get better quality and more resilient turf with less frequent fertilizer. Is it due to the Next products, different weather this year, the seed I used last Fall, moon phase, random chance . . . don't know. My turf greened up earlier this year and has been doing much better than usual by this point of Summer. Well enough that I plan to skip the annual overseed ritual this Fall. Something is different from prior years and at least anecdotally points to the Next products.
Click to expand...

I'm kind of in same boat as you. This is my first year using it, my lawn looks better then last year but several factors most likely contributing to that. This summer is a lot better then last, I've mowed at 1/2 higher this summer than last. I've probably irrigated better this year as well. I've only been treating 8k sqft of my 20k sqft lawn with N-EXT products and I'll be honest visually I can't tell the difference in areas I've treated vs no treatment.

Below is a picture of my test plot. The right side has been receiving N-EXT products every month since April, the left side has just received my normal fert program. It's kind of hard to see now but there are 3 sections, far section is 100% TTTF, middle section is 100% KBG and closest section is a 90/10 mix. In both sections that contain fescue I see no difference in right side vs left. in KBG section it does appear less of it went dormant vs the left side. Again that might not all be N-EXT products though as the plot isn't perfectly even and does slope slightly from left to right so maybe moisture staying in the right side longer? Who knows


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## Jameshtx

beardizzle1 said:


> How's everyone feeling about the N-Ext products they've purchased? I purchased the Bio-Stim pack this year and seem to get good results. However, I don't really have much to compare them to as it's year 1 for me. Lawn has responded well to everything and I've had neighbors comment on the lawn.


How many applications did it take to see results? I'm receiving my bio pack tomorrow n excited to give it a try


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## beardizzle1

@Jameshtx it may not be necessarily a # of apps to consider on my part. This is the first year my lawn has received regular fert apps, so with that alone it looks better. It does seem like it stayed out of dormancy longer and bounced back quicker.


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## burnhagw

Hey yall, I have two month old tifway bermuda sod, in NC. I was thinking of ordering the bistim package, but was wondering if it's too late in the season to put any of this stuff down? Would it be wiser to start fresh in the early spring or buy this and put 3oz of each product down now during fall? I threw down some milo about 2 weeks ago.


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## Josh5MS

Does anyone have any cheaper alternatives that they have used that are similar to the N-ext products? I have a 36k square foot yard so the jugs of products don't last for very many applications and the price adds up quickly.


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## Methodical

Josh5MS said:


> Does anyone have any cheaper alternatives that they have used that are similar to the N-ext products? I have a 36k square foot yard so the jugs of products don't last for very many applications and the price adds up quickly.


As far as Humic goes, there's a youtuber (Connor Ward) who uses 50lb bags of this stuff. He may be able to help you on that front.


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## BubbaGrumpus

Check out kelp4less. Very similar products. Some of them have measurements/dilutions for reservoirs. Not sure how your spraying but sounds doable.

I'd call them and explain your situation. Good folks. Great customer service.


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## Bigdrumnc

So who is going to use them next season? So far I am only using the bio stim pack and it seems to perk the lawn up. I am a believer humic and kelp do help with drought. I am going to end my season with using only Greene punch 18-0-1. Just curious if others are going to stick with them. Carbon x seem like a great catch all product! No mixing no spraying!


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## Teej

Bigdrumnc said:


> So who is going to use them next season? So far I am only using the bio stim pack and it seems to perk the lawn up. I am a believer humic and kelp do help with drought. I am going to end my season with using only Greene punch 18-0-1. Just curious if others are going to stick with them. Carbon x seem like a great catch all product! No mixing no spraying!


I'll be using some GCF products next year for sure. After using them for 1 season, I've definitely noticed an improvement in the lawn. I just picked up a bag of Carbon-X so I'll use that next season along with Humic12, RGS, Air8 and GreenEffect when I want a little color pop.


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## Methodical

I will continue using the N-Ext products I have (really like the Green Effect, RGS and Humic), but will look into a few Kelp4less products, such as their humic/kelp mixture and the molasses dry powder. So, basically, I will use N-Ext RGS and Green Effect and Kelp4less' humic/fulvic/kelp mixture and molasses. Hopefully Kelp4less have some sales over the winter months.


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## GardenGarret

samjonester said:


> Hm. Thanks @Suburban Jungle Life. None of those really look cheaper per app than the 5 gal bottle of microgreen. However.., looking more closely at the K4L product line...
> 
> Mixing these looks like a killer combo:
> https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/micro-nutrient-pack/
> https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/powder-extreme-blend/
> 
> The extreme blend is their kelp, humic, fulvic, and amino acid products blended together.
> The kelp gives potassium and a bunch of other micros, fortified by the nutrient pack, and the mineral content should be great. That's basically RGS and the Microgreen+GreenEffect combo mixed together.
> 
> Breaking down the costs:
> 
> K4L "clones"
> $28 (1 lb extreme) + $35 (1 lb micros) = $63 initial investment
> Application Options
> - As concentrate - mixing both to a 1 gal concentrate and using 3 oz / M
> - Using 10g of each product dry / M
> Results in just under $1.50 per application / M
> 
> RGS + Microgreen/
> $115 (5 gal RGS) + $125 (5 gal Microgreen+GreenEffect) = $240 initial investment
> Application
> - 3 oz RGS / M + 12 oz Microgreen+GreenEffect / M
> Results in something like $.50 RGS + $2.50 Microgreen+GreenEffect per app / M
> 
> The mineral breakdown in the Microgreen+GreenEffect looks better, and I'm not confident the 10g / M of the K4L minerals is a true clone of what matches between the products, but I know the K4L Extreme vs RGS cost breakdown is correct. Right now I can't stomach the price difference of the initial investment for the products.
> 
> I'm going to use those K4L products at 10g of each / M. That will cover ~45 M with each purchase, which for me is 6 applications on my whole property.


Can someone point me to the "K4L clones"? Are they as effective?


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## krusej23

I will only be buying MicroGreene and Air8 from now on from GCF because the microgreene basically has the same ingredients in it as rgs and humic12 except it has the added micros and Air8 is it's own special product.


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## Ohio Lawn

krusej23 said:


> I will only be buying MicroGreene and Air8 from now on from GCF because the microgreene basically has the same ingredients in it as rgs and humic12 except it has the added micros and Air8 is it's own special product.


Are the same the same ingredients in the same concentrations and does it matter?


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## krusej23

MicroGreene 
8% Humic acid
2% Sea Kelp
RGS
6% Humic acid
3% sea kelp


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## Ohio Lawn

krusej23 said:


> MicroGreene
> 8% Humic acid
> 2% Sea Kelp
> RGS
> 6% Humic acid
> 3% sea kelp


Thanks. It seemed like a lot of the products are quite similar. I'm interested to see what others think of this topic. I'm a novice.


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## Jay20nj

I agree in many of the products being extremely similar on the label anyway. I got the bio pack. For $100 ill give them a shot being my lawn pretty much is terrible it can get all the help it can get. Skeptical though since they all seem similar with the humic...


----------

