# Lesions on TTTF Blades



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

I just noticed some lesions on these blades of grass. I was wondering if it's Dollar Spot or Brown Patch based on the lesions alone?

As far as the overall grass is concerned, it's not the textbook DS circles or the patches of brown grass as BP will tend to look.

I remember there was a website that would tell you what disease was present in your area by zip code but I couldn't find that to help me either.

I wanted to know to see if I should treat it with a little nitrogen if it was DS and if not I didn't want to feed the BP. 😬

Thanks for any insight.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I've been noticing a few recently, too: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3003
Some don't even have the defined border like most of yours do. Some of this may be dollar spot, but I'm not sure. Check out my photo as well.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

I have the same along with red thread. I spot treated with propicanizole this evening.

I think it was from the heat wave and rain that began 2 weeks ago.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

@Green 
I looked at that blade the other night for quite a while. I don't know...but it does look patchy.

Any chance that this might be gray leaf spot? Especially @Lawndad ?

Like I said, I really don't know. Just trying to narrow things down.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@social port...All I know is, I ordered 2.5 gallons of Serenade today...


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> I've been noticing a few recently, too: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3003
> Some don't even have the defined border like most of yours do. Some of this may be dollar spot, but I'm not sure. Check out my photo as well.


Yours looks more like BP. It doesn't have that dark brown border around the lesions but then again I'm on here asking because I dunno. 😜

Does your have the textbook BP "patches"?


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

social port said:


> @Green
> I looked at that blade the other night for quite a while. I don't know...but it does look patchy.
> 
> Any chance that this might be gray leaf spot? Especially @Lawndad ?
> ...


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> @social port...All I know is, I ordered 2.5 gallons of Serenade today...


I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

I located the map I was referring to in my initial post.

http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/pestoutlooks.aspx

Basically, it can be just about anything now.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Lawndad said:


> I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.


I'm in the same boat. Actually after fighting the fungus battle like Captain Ahab for far too long I've given up on chemical fungus control - huge time and money suck for little return. I'm relying on old fashioned cultural practices: disease resistant cultivars, no fert after March 15, close watch on soil water content and irrigation, judicious landscape pruning for better sun and airflow. A lot less money and trouble and less heartbreak when all the expensive treatments don't pay off 100% anyway.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> I just noticed some lesions on these blades of grass. I was wondering if it's Dollar Spot or Brown Patch based on the lesions alone?


Looks like classic brown patch lesions. I'd hit it with some foliar propiconazole and then again every 2 weeks through summer. You can alternate with azoxystrobin. Make no mistake, if you stop while conditions are favorable it will be back with a vengeance.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

I had some type of fungus start up early April in my TTTF. Started with the propiconazole immediately and it has cleared up nicely. My plan at this point is the lighter app of propiconazole every two weeks and every fourth app will be Azoxy. We have had a ton of rain so far and our temps have been in the upper 60's for lows and mid 80's for highs. The grass really doesn't get a chance to dry out between the morning dew and evening showers/thunderstorms basically converting my lawn to a giant petri dish. Here's what mine looked like in April.


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > @social port...All I know is, I ordered 2.5 gallons of Serenade today...
> ...


My experience was the same and I used Serenade, Companion and Actinovate rotation each season for past several years and still eventually struggled with fungal pressure. I'm passing on biological fungus "stuff" this season and have Propiconazole on the ready.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.





zeus201 said:


> My experience was the same and I used Serenade, Companion and Actinovate rotation each season for past several years and still eventually struggled with fungal pressure. I'm passing on biological fungus "stuff" this season and have Propiconazole on the ready.


I'm curious what your rate(s) are and how often you re-apply?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> Does your have the textbook BP "patches"?


No. Any patches I have are red thread.

As far as Serenade, I'm sold on it. I used it last year, but started late. Still, I didn't have huge Brown Patch or Dollar Spot issues like I do every year in the Summer. Also, the one part of the yard I didn't use it on developed a bad outbreak of Rust.

I already used up the remainder I had from last year on the area with the worst red thread.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> ..... We have had a ton of rain so far and our temps have been in the upper 60's for lows and mid 80's for highs. The grass really doesn't get a chance to dry out between the morning dew and evening showers/thunderstorms basically *converting my lawn to a giant petri dish*.


So True... So True.... I'm too embarrassed to take pictures right now. I don't want a record of all this ugliness I've got going on.  :crying:


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## zeus201 (Aug 30, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.
> ...


Sorry if I hi-jack:

This was my experience but I'm just choosing to use synthetic once conditions are favorable.

I was following label rate on a weekly cycle which I rotated between Serenade and Companion as they are two different strains of Bacillus...figured diversity is good. Actinovate was monthly because it was expensive. I was also dropping cracked corn monthly as there has been some correlation that naturally occurring fungus on the corn is beneficial (unsure if it worked but at least added to OM).

It became tiring every week applying and Companion smelled like rotting fish guts which wife / kiddos didn't appreciate. Perhaps Iowa summers and constant humidity just was too much as there are many summer nights which never get below 70F. But again, this what I experienced for my turf and someone else may experience different results using bio-fungicides.


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.
> ...


Just to be fair, Serenade is an organic control, not a chemical/synthetic like Armada, Heritage, Eagle.....to name a few. Those are the ones the pro's rely on.


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

zeus201 said:


> My experience was the same and I used Serenade, Companion and Actinovate rotation each season for past several years and still eventually struggled with fungal pressure. I'm passing on biological fungus "stuff" this season and have Propiconazole on the ready.


If your concerned about using too much of the non-organic stuff (propiconazole) make sure you put it down at the lesser, PREVENTATIVE rate.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??


It doesn't take long, a few hours. And if it washes into the soil it will get picked up through the roots - that's how granular propiconazole works.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

kevreh said:


> zeus201 said:
> 
> 
> > My experience was the same and I used Serenade, Companion and Actinovate rotation each season for past several years and still eventually struggled with fungal pressure. I'm passing on biological fungus "stuff" this season and have Propiconazole on the ready.
> ...


You should only use the preventative rate if you are trying to prevent. If you've already got a breakout, preventive is too late. You need the curative rate, and at least 1 follow up spray.


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

Right, but since he said he has it "on the ready" I'm guessing he's not seeing any signs yet of fungus issues.


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Gorgonzola17 said:
> 
> 
> > Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??
> ...


Thanks alot for the information. Will check for my best window of no rain.


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## nclawnguy (Jun 27, 2017)

For active brown patch, use any fungicide with azoxystrobin as active ingredient. Hands down the best at curing and preventing bp in fescue. Propiconazole is better as preventative than a cure. Scotts now has azoxystrobin as ai on their fungicide.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

kevreh said:


> Just to be fair, Serenade is an organic control, not a chemical/synthetic like Armada, Heritage, Eagle.....to name a few. Those are the ones the pro's rely on.


Not really directed at you but more to the topic generally, just to be fair, those are actually the ones golf course superintendents rely on. I stick to my guns that fungus control on residential lawns is not appropriate if proper cultural practices are used.

You are just as likely to get or not get some fungus in some climates (like the transition zone where I am) with or without expensive, labor intensive, frequent preventative applications, if you avoid enhancing conditions that fungus likes. Grass gets fungus - let it grow out and move on. Summer heat bangs the grass a lot more than fungus ever will (unless the lawn gets constantly overwatered and treated more like a . . . golf fairway than a lawn).

If not careful, a bunch of residential homeowners can end up fostering resistant strains that the few effective available fungicides won't control anymore and no matter what happens, there is always a tendency for all organisms in nature to get spread around eventually even from a residential lawn. To each his own. . . .


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> If not careful, a bunch of residential homeowners can end up fostering resistant strains that the few effective available fungicides won't control anymore and no matter what happens, there is always a tendency for all organisms in nature to get spread around eventually even from a residential lawn. To each his own. . . .


I wish Scotts had thought about this when they released Azoxystrobin without the proper documentation about rotation, resistance management, etc. Hopefully no one applies it 18 times in a row (which would reach the max per year allowed)...or even 3 times.

I think it's good to be able to use something once or twice to stop a particularly bad outbreak that's happening, but if people see a few lesions (like what I have on my grass right now) and they overreact, next thing you know, they're using chemicals that aren't needed and can contribute to resistance.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > If not careful, a bunch of residential homeowners can end up fostering resistant strains that the few effective available fungicides won't control anymore and no matter what happens, there is always a tendency for all organisms in nature to get spread around eventually even from a residential lawn. To each his own. . . .
> ...


Unfortunately, it only takes one time. If a strain resistant to what's being used for a particular app is present, it has to be ultimately killed, dead by subsequent apps, or it is thusly selected out and will eventually tend to flourish and spread. Careful timing and rotation of modes of action accomplishes that. It's either all the way in for a full program of fungus control or not at all.

To the guys who rotate modes and apply every couple / few weeks according to the labels, throughout the entire growing seasons, my hat off to you. I just don't see that ever happening on most lawns. I've tried it and surrendered - too much money and work for not enough return.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I stick to my guns that fungus control on residential lawns is not appropriate if proper cultural practices are used.
> 
> You are just as likely to get or not get some fungus in some climates (like the transition zone where I am) with or without expensive, labor intensive, frequent preventative applications, if you avoid enhancing conditions that fungus likes.


I think for a lot of people that statement isn't a reflection of reality. It may be true where you live, but it's definitely not true another 400 miles south here at the southern edge of the transition zone. With days in the mid 90s, nights in the high 70s and humidity through the roof you get wiped out by June, and there's no cultural practice that can prevent that.


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > I stick to my guns that fungus control on residential lawns is not appropriate if proper cultural practices are used.
> ...


I have to agree with j4c11 in this. My lawn is already a petry dish and we aren't even in June yet.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > I stick to my guns that fungus control on residential lawns is not appropriate if proper cultural practices are used.
> ...


Well I'll stand corrected. It's true my frame of reference is where I am and we do get very heavy fungus pressure - apparently not as much as where you are.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

j4c11 said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > I stick to my guns that fungus control on residential lawns is not appropriate if proper cultural practices are used.
> ...


Here in NC my problem has been the fungus brings my TTTF down in May and June to a point that it can't withstand the July and August heat and dry conditions. Last year I started with propiconazole in late May once the fungus had already started and alternated with Azoxy. Last year was the first time my lawn made it through summer without needing a major overseed in the fall. This year at the first sign of fungus I began treatment. Due to the cost of Azoxy I'm going 3 apps of Propiconazole and 1 app Azoxy to avoid resistance. If it works as well this year as it did last year I will actually save money overall on grass seed alone and might even do a fall pre-m app for the first time ever.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Unfortunately, it only takes one time. If a strain resistant to what's being used for a particular app is present, it has to be ultimately killed, dead by subsequent apps, or it is thusly selected out and will eventually tend to flourish and spread. Careful timing and rotation of modes of action accomplishes that. It's either all the way in for a full program of fungus control or not at all.
> 
> To the guys who rotate modes and apply every couple / few weeks according to the labels, throughout the entire growing seasons, my hat off to you. I just don't see that ever happening on most lawns. I've tried it and surrendered - too much money and work for not enough return.


Here, it's very common to do two (or even one) applications on a home lawn if a you have a big problem, and that's it. The pro fertilizer guys do it this way. Typically though, you use a combination of two AIs for at least one of those applications.

My hope is that Serenade prevents those big issues entirely. Last year, it did...except for an area I didn't use it on. I got bad rust there. Waited as long as possible, did the Nitrogen thing, but it wasn't going away, and it was getting a bit close to the end of the season. I sprayed a light Propiconazole app at the same time as a light (preventative) Headway G amount for the first app (2 AIs used...Propiconazole and Azoystrobin; the Propiconazole being used at the curative rate). And then a week or two later, did a follow-up app of just Propiconazole. I lost some grass, but not too much, thankfully. No way was I going to rotate and use chemicals for the entire season...or on the flip side, not use a chemical, and let the grass thin out badly toward the end of the season. A lot of people have never heard of rust getting that bad...but it can happen.

Did I promote the spread of Rust pathogens resistant to Azoxystrobin (or even Propiconazole)? Hopefully not. I saw no other choice, though.

I still need to wash that mower bag out that I used to bag the clippings...not sure how to get rid of the rust spores...


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > I still need to wash that mower bag out that I used to bag the clippings...not sure how to get rid of the rust spores...
> ...


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > I tried that product last year and it was a giant waste of time and money but others swear by it. Some will probably say you need to keep on it for years for it to work. Maybe you will or do have better luck than me with it.
> ...


Hey I know we spoke a while back about these products. I applied them at 3-4oz/1K sf and every 7-14 days. I just didn't have any good luck with them.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > Does your have the textbook BP "patches"?
> ...


That's good you have some luck with it. :thumbup:


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??


To be honest I had really good results with The Home Depot's Blag Flag hose end spray that had propiconozole as the AI. It was $10 a bottle (covered 2,500sf) and it worked just as good as Patch Pro which required me mixing and tank spraying.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> Gorgonzola17 said:
> 
> 
> > Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??
> ...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Lol on the car wash. I have to go every week lately for the car due to the pollen.

Weird that in this thread, the people who put down Serenade less often are the ones getting better results from it! I'm careful not to tank mix anything with it...just water.


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

Lawndad said:


> Gorgonzola17 said:
> 
> 
> > Would love to treat my lawn with propiconozole by this weekend but the chance for rain and thunderstorms is so high over the next week. How long should the fungicide sit on the grass blades before rain or irrigating??
> ...


I got it down yesterday at 2 oz/ 1000 and then got a thunderstorm shortly after. The gentleman at my local fert store was pushing armada. I will probably split the cost with my father in law (otherwise could probably last me a few seasons) and give it a shot next season because I already purchased propiconizole (group 3)and clearys 3336f (group 1) for this season. Will see how it goes. This is my first season incorporating fungicides into my lawn care plan.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> Lawndad said:
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> 
> > Gorgonzola17 said:
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Sounds like you got a good game plan in place.


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

Lawndad said:


> Gorgonzola17 said:
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> 
> > Lawndad said:
> ...


I see you are from NJ. What area are you from. My wife lived in Monroe township before we were married.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> Lawndad said:
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> 
> > Gorgonzola17 said:
> ...


Yes I live in south Jersey. Are you referring to Monroe in south or north Jersey?


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## Gorgonzola17 (Feb 28, 2018)

More like central Jersey. Near freehold, and Manalapan. Exit 8a off the turnpike.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > Gorgonzola17 said:
> ...


Well, despite having my tail between my legs a bit for spouting off, I still want to learn something from the experience (and my mind always obsesses over problems lol). To test a theory, do you know your soil ph? I recall that a more acedic soil can reduce fungus pressure - how much, I don't know. A less sweet soil might at least reduce the problem. It would be an interesting experiment if someone is willing to try.

My own soil ph is a little on the high side (around 6.8) but I don't ordinarily have a huge fungus problem (yes, some lesions on the blades at times of course but no grass kill). Given the issues you guys face in the Carolinas, is someone game to try lowering ph as an addition to other solid cultural practices and see if fungus kill is reduced? It is just the musings of a crazed mind but if someone doesn't plan to use fungicide anyway, it might be an interesting experiment.


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## vnephologist (Aug 4, 2017)

This thread really teased out the folks using chem fungicides!  Like others here, I've tried exclusive use of bio's with little success (even rotated different strains). Cultural practices absolutely have their place too. For example, part of my lawn stays shaded most of the morning, so if it gets wet anytime after sundown, it'll stay wet until the afternoon of the next day. I actually irrigate mid-afternoon so it has time to dry. However, I really think that for those of us in humid climates, the answer is absolutely chemical prevention. Once there's a breakout, it seems exponentially harder to manage. I guess I'm fortunate that my lawn is small, so I can afford, both financially and time-wise, to practice good management by rotating modes starting before pressure at preventative rates. So far, for me, this has provided superior control. When I had mainly TTTF, BP killed me. After my reno to KBG, my primary foe was pythium last year. For that reason, I'm actually adding mefenoxam to my regular rotation this year and also considering potassium phosphite. That puts me at four modes on rotation. Now, if I could just find a good preventative for my neighbors' dog urine!


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Gorgonzola17 said:


> More like central Jersey. Near freehold, and Manalapan. Exit 8a off the turnpike.


I gotcha. Much north of me. :thumbup:


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

Re: propiconazole, what is the curative rate? Is 2 oz/M every two weeks still considered a preventive rate?


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

PokeGrande said:


> Re: propiconazole, what is the curative rate? Is 2 oz/M every two weeks still considered a preventive rate?


That would depend on the actual propiconazole product, the amount of that AI in that fungicide and what the labels says its rate is set for. I have used Patch Pro before which I recall the label specified the amount for curative and preventative.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

nclawnguy said:


> For active brown patch, use any fungicide with azoxystrobin as active ingredient. Hands down the best at curing and preventing bp in fescue. Propiconazole is better as preventative than a cure. Scotts now has azoxystrobin as ai on their fungicide.


I wonder if you use Scotts EX with a granular propiconizole product if you have just created the poor man's Heritage G? :shock:


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## PokeGrande (Mar 25, 2018)

Lawndad said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> > Re: propiconazole, what is the curative rate? Is 2 oz/M every two weeks still considered a preventive rate?
> ...


I have Propiconazole 14.3 by Quali-Pro:

https://www.domyown.com/propiconazole-143-p-16567.html?sub_id=16568


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## nclawnguy (Jun 27, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> nclawnguy said:
> 
> 
> > For active brown patch, use any fungicide with azoxystrobin as active ingredient. Hands down the best at curing and preventing bp in fescue. Propiconazole is better as preventative than a cure. Scotts now has azoxystrobin as ai on their fungicide.
> ...


Headway G actually. Yes you would have basically the same product.


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

nclawnguy said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > nclawnguy said:
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Yes Headway G, I got them mixed up. :thumbup:


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## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

PokeGrande said:


> Lawndad said:
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> > PokeGrande said:
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Since the label doesn't specify curative/preventative rates, I always took it as if it says 1-2oz per 1 gallon that the 2oz rate is the curative rate. Sometimes I call the manufacturers of the products if you want to get a definitive on that but I have used it at the 2oz rate as a curative for myself.


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## ThickAndGreen (Sep 8, 2017)

When spraying Propiconazole (or other fungicides) at the curative rate, should any surfactant be added? Should it be watered in?


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I add 0.25 oz or 7.4 ml NIS per M. I found it too hard to measure that small oz so I use graduated cylinders in ml... Anyway, do you have to? I guess not but it helps spread the product across the leaf where the fungus tends to be unless you have a root fungus. Once it rains or you mow and mulch, then the fungicide works in the soil and is absorbed by the roots. So, if you have NIS, it wouldn't hurt to add it. If you don't, try it without. They sell granular versions anyway so if you don't get good coverage on the leaf, the roots will take it in. I imagine it will just take a longer time to be effective as a curative. I don't water it in if spraying. If it is a granular, definitely use some water so the granules can dissolve and release the product.


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