# Companion and Serenade Prices?



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Hello everyone,

I recently joined the forum from Grass Daddy's YouTube recommendation, thanks. 👍🏼

I live in NJ and of course like everyone in here I have a lawn addiction! 😜

I have about 6,000 sq. ft. of TTTF.

The reason for this post was for competetive pricing for Serenade and Companion bio fungicides.

Has anyone found these products cheaper including shipping than what Amazon offers? I did a search of this forum and couldn't find too much. Since my lawn is rather smaller I didn't want to buy in bulk or gallons and gallons of anything.

Along the same topic, Serenade and Companion are the same bacteria just different strains is there a "stronger or better" one if you had to pick just one? When I spoke with the Companion rep. he of course said that his was much better and that it should be used with a synthetic fungicide where as the Serenade rep. read from the label and couldn't tell you much more about their product.

Thanks.


----------



## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Lawndad said:


>


I'm no help on this topic, but welcome to TLF! That's a great looking lawn! :thumbup:


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. Quart size is $14.25. Shipping is extra ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable). This big jug has an application rate for turfgrass, which isn't listed on the smaller bottles. It's 2-6 qt/ac, which works out to 0.18-0.55 cup/K. You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good. I am going to have to figure it a way to lift this thing and pour, maybe set it up on a chair. it's too heavy to hold with one arm.


----------



## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:

- take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth 
- add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
- would it need some sort of agitation/aeration? Don't know.

If the conditions are right, that bacteria should start munching away at the protein and multiplying. If it doubles every 30 minutes then you would have ~60 times the amount of bacteria you started with in only a few hours, lowering your cost per app significantly. Yes, there will probably be other bacteria hitching a ride in there, but we're not trying to obtain a pure culture.

One would need to purchase a microscope and a staining kit to determine whether the procedure is effective. I looked into it and the kit was about $40 on Amazon, since I just apply fungicide it's not worth the investment to me. But if you're into organic it may pay itself off fairly quickly.


----------



## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable).
> 
> You would *use a larger amount* when there is disease pressure, *a smaller amount* when everything is looking good.


+1. :thumbup:

LD, just get the 2.5 gallon jug. You can get 13 apps @4oz/k (less if you need to use larger amounts or shorter times in between sprayings).

IE: The past 3 weeks, I've been spraying @4oz/k every weekend because I feel conditions need it. Better to have Serenade on the ready than to wait for shipping especially for a bio regimen.


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.

What I've found with both products is you won't find cheaper sources for the quart size. I looked everywhere and jglongisland confirmed I would need to get the 2.5 gallon jugs to lower cost.

My experience with these two are mixed. I think Serenade does work fine at helping 'control' foliar diseases; companion for soil based diseases. Figure out which problem you have and go with that bio.

The reason the guy mentioned using together with synthetics is because that's basically what they're made for. They're designed to reduce the use of synthetics in high input turf. I did the Companion regimen proactively for 2 years (although not at super high frequency) and noticed no difference in summer patch kill. I also did Serenade proactively (albeit not rigorously) and still got rust outbreaks. If you really have a major disease lurking in your soil, I don't believe Companion will do much without the addition of synthetics.

With TTTF you're biggest threat is probably Brown Patch. Serenade doesn't list that on the label but Companion does. You would need to use Companion foliar apps.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:
> 
> - take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth
> - add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
> ...


That is an interesting idea... I think you would need the air bubbler like making compost tea..


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Ware said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Thanks a lot! :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. Quart size is $14.25. Shipping is extra ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable). This big jug has an application rate for turfgrass, which isn't listed on the smaller bottles. It's 2-6 qt/ac, which works out to 0.18-0.55 cup/K. You would use a larger amount when there is disease pressure, a smaller amount when everything is looking good. I am going to have to figure it a way to lift this thing and pour, maybe set it up on a chair. it's too heavy to hold with one arm.


Great thanks for the tip. :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> I posted in regards to this issue on the other forum as well. The bacteria found in these products doubles every 30 minutes if provided with the right condition. I'm not a biologist but it seems like it should be possible to:
> 
> - take a Lowe's bucket, wipe the inside with some alcohol, pour in some water, some chlorine neutralizer and a bit of beef broth
> - add a small amount of the product(endospores?) and let it sit for 24 hours
> ...


Sounds like a big science experiment but interesting idea. lol Thanks.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > I just bought 2.5 gallons of Serenade from Seven Springs Farm for $95. ($16 for my very heavy jug, which I thought was reasonable).
> ...


Hey pal, I've been applying it too but I actually added a synthetic fungicide (Bayleton 1%) about a week ago and wanted to keep with the Serenade to see how it performs. I also added SOP about a month ago and adding another 10lbs to make 25lbs total (soil test called for it). I was thinking with that program I should be good but last week I got Red Thread.

Have you got any signs of disease at all and did you mix in Companion this time?


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.
> 
> What I've found with both products is you won't find cheaper sources for the quart size. I looked everywhere and jglongisland confirmed I would need to get the 2.5 gallon jugs to lower cost.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input. What you're saying is interesting because I sent a tissue sample this season to Rutgers Lab and told them my program. The scientist basically said that Serenade is worthless and is only 30% effective. I did apply the Serenade this season and I got Red Thread recently so I don't know either. I did look at the label and it covers Brown Patch (whether it really works or not, I don't know yet).

How do you know what diseases are soil and foliar based? Is there a good site to use? I typically get Red Thread, Brown Patch, Dollar Spot and Leaf Spot. If I spray Serenade and water it in can't it be used to treat soil based and if I let it sit on the leaves it would treat foliar? If I sprayed it and let it sit for 24 hours then watered it in I can treat both - foliar and soil? My line of thinking on that is Companion is the same AI just different strain so they should do the same or I should say at least similar.


----------



## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I'm no turf disease/fungicide expert, but here is a table from Ohio State that does a good job of breaking down the different fungicide families and their characteristics (contact vs systemic, etc).

I've also found that NC State has some great info on turf diseases, which typically includes a table of recommended fungicides - tiered by efficacy. Example: Red Thread

Finally, not trying to derail this thread, but wanted to let you know I just posted this lawn to the TLF facebook and twitter pages. :thumbup:




__ https://www.facebook.com/thelawnforum/posts/942996392508473




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/872288067520016384


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

A video on Serenade's mode of action:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwin9cPR0qvUAhUBTD4KHXxSClwQwqsBCCEwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=1uh4O7pewc_EZSyVG9a48w


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Ware said:


> I'm no turf disease/fungicide expert, but here is a table from Ohio State that does a good job of breaking down the different fungicide families and their characteristics (contact vs systemic, etc).
> 
> I've also found that NC State has some great info on turf diseases, which typically includes a table of recommended fungicides - tiered by efficacy. Example: Red Thread
> 
> ...


Great, thanks for those links and posting my pic. I found your FB page and following it now. Good stuff! :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> A video on Serenade's mode of action:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=%23&ved=0ahUKEwin9cPR0qvUAhUBTD4KHXxSClwQwqsBCCEwAA&usg=AFQjCNF1sHlk2z9QIx28jtvfnGP_UlkifA&sig2=1uh4O7pewc_EZSyVG9a48w


I tried opening the video on my Iphone and my desktop computer but no luck with the link. Does it work on your end?


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Sorry about that. Let's try this link:
https://youtu.be/bA7yiswLdMM


----------



## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> Hey pal, I've been applying it too but I actually added a synthetic fungicide (Bayleton 1%) about a week ago and wanted to keep with the Serenade to see how it performs. I also added SOP about a month ago and adding another 10lbs to make 25lbs total (soil test called for it). I was thinking with that program I should be good but last week I got Red Thread.
> 
> Have you got any signs of disease at all and did you mix in Companion this time?


How many times have you sprayed Serenade and at what rate/k?

No signs yet. :crossing fingers: I decided not to mix Companion this year. I wanted to, but the lawn budget is dried out. :lol:


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Let's not forget our mycorrhizae fungi. For anyone reading not familiar with them, here's a good introductory article:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi275eJ9qvUAhVMGj4KHSfhCFwQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNEcn7Wln6Qt_pK3DIf5KkJtnXOKJg&sig2=sa_sVni-cMgqLrdU5stmdA

Serenade works better with a fungicide added. I am using it alone. There is some information out there on fungicides that are the least inhibitory to the mycorrhizae:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.planthealthcare.com/pdf/Myconate/Fungicide%2520effects%2520on%2520Mycorrhizal%2520Fungi%2520and%2520Root%2520Colonization%25208-2009.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjp4bTy8qvUAhVKdT4KHZdmAVoQFggwMAM&usg=AFQjCNF2M7SX8W0ybB8qFCUoYR8hF5RBHA&sig2=T33y7mJ1stmx8Q9bcfks-Q

http://www.lebanonturf.com/education/fungicide-effects-on-mycorrhizae

If you have a choice of fungicides, it would be better to use one least toxic to the mycorrhizae if it would be effective for your disease.


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> > Welcome to the forum and fantastic looking lawn! Post that pic in the lawn pics thread if you'd like.
> ...


I usually just look up the disease to find out which one it is. I believe all the ones you mentioned are foliar. I couldn't find a link with the type of chart you're looking for (that would be handy). 
I used to think it worked the same way; spray foliar and then water it in after to get the best of both apps, but I'm fairly certain the soil apps need to be watered in immediately to get the bacteria to the root zone. I don't know what the exact differences in the AI are but I do recall that Companion did nothing for my rust while Serenade definitely slowed it down.

http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/pestoutlooks.aspx


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> Sorry about that. Let's try this link:


Perfect. 👌🏼

A good video to better understand it.

Thanks!


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

ericgautier said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > Hey pal, I've been applying it too but I actually added a synthetic fungicide (Bayleton 1%) about a week ago and wanted to keep with the Serenade to see how it performs. I also added SOP about a month ago and adding another 10lbs to make 25lbs total (soil test called for it). I was thinking with that program I should be good but last week I got Red Thread.
> ...


I applied it on May 1st @ 3.5oz/k and then again on May 10th @ 3.5oz/k. I saw Red Thread coming on in so I wanted to use a synthetic with Serenade and went with Bayleton 1% on May 28th. I plan to spray Serenade again this week at 4oz/k.

Are you doing strictly 4oz per application? I decided the same thing with Companion it's a lot more expensive than Serenade and thought it was a bit much to try to keep up with.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > LIgrass said:
> ...


I've seen that website before. I thought it was odd to not have dollar spot on it. It's difficult to decide to water it in or let sit because we are spraying it as a preventative of something we don't know we have or is coming. Maybe one week water it in and the next let it sit to get the best of both worlds. I dunno but anyway thanks for the link. :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> Let's not forget our mycorrhizae fungi. For anyone reading not familiar with them, here's a good introductory article:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/mycorrhizae.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwi275eJ9qvUAhVMGj4KHSfhCFwQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNEcn7Wln6Qt_pK3DIf5KkJtnXOKJg&sig2=sa_sVni-cMgqLrdU5stmdA
> 
> Serenade works better with a fungicide added. I am using it alone. There is some information out there on fungicides that are the least inhibitory to the mycorrhizae:
> ...


Wow, pretty cool and deep! I'll have to read this over closer but I just skimmed it now. There are so many variables and methods to prevent/treat fungus it becomes difficult on what/when to do it for the best outcome. I feel like some of it is trial and error too. Anyway thanks for the those links, much appreciated. :thumbup:


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> > LIgrass said:
> ...


I looked at the Serenade label. It says it can used as a foliar or a soil drench. But then it says if there is rain or irrigation afterwards it may need to be reapplied. It also suggests using a surfactant for above ground parts. I don't see how it could be used as a soil drench except on bare ground. There is too much vegetation in the way now for it to reach much soil.

I am having a problem with my hose end sprayer. I put Serenade and water in for three gallons. First gallon went okay. It took a long time to dispense the 2nd. I gave up on the third and put it in a pressure sprayer to apply. It wasn't siphoning. Later I tried the sprayer with plain water and it was pulling it up. Is Serenade too thick for a hose end sprayer?


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

To get it into the root zone for soil apps, water immediately after spraying with a pump or backpack. Put down 10-20 gal/K, or whatever it takes to penetrate about 4 inches below. You don't want to irrigate like normal. Just a few minutes should do it. Definitely don't do it before rain to prevent it washing down past the root zone.

Lawndad, I posted the wrong link (although that one is useful too) http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/diseases , after selecting disease scroll down to "Chemical Control". This one's good to match up what synthetics cover the main diseases you're dealing with. I'm looking to rotate this year chlorothalonil (cheap Daconil concentrate that I've heard great things about) in June & propiconazole next month as I see some rust brewing after cloudy weather all week.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> > Lawndad said:
> ...


I have only used a tank sprayer for applications. I have read that the drop size is much smaller with a tank sprayer and a majority of the action when fighting fungal disease is at the blade. So basically the gist of what someone had said is don't use a hose end sprayer, although it is much easier and quicker. I would have liked to take that way too if it worked well.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> To get it into the root zone for soil apps, water immediately after spraying with a pump or backpack. Put down 10-20 gal/K, or whatever it takes to penetrate about 4 inches below. You don't want to irrigate like normal. Just a few minutes should do it. Definitely don't do it before rain to prevent it washing down past the root zone.
> 
> Lawndad, I posted the wrong link (although that one is useful too) http://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/diseases , after selecting disease scroll down to "Chemical Control". This one's good to match up what synthetics cover the main diseases you're dealing with. I'm looking to rotate this year chlorothalonil (cheap Daconil concentrate that I've heard great things about) in June & propiconazole next month as I see some rust brewing after cloudy weather all week.


Than you, what is the brand that you use for Daconil? I was going to use a granular of Daconil last year and somone on the "other forum" told me it was illegal to use in Nj.


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

This one https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sevin-Daconil-Fungicide-Concentrate-16-oz/16795190
I'm going to see if HD will price match + 10% (because HD is closer to me).

Things dried out nicely today and I couldn't find much of what I saw earlier. I'm still going to spray it as a preventative because I know things are gonna get raunchy soon.

Not sure about any issues with spraying it. I spray it on my cabbage looking plant and banana trees (I think they're banana trees)...if a stiff breeze comes through and it happens to drift onto the areas I saw rust there's nothing I can do about that 

Dilution rate from the old label for lawns is 1.5 oz /gal at first sign of disease and 2.0 oz/gal for established disease.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> To get it into the root zone for soil apps, water immediately after spraying with a pump or backpack. Put down 10-20 gal/K, or whatever it takes to penetrate about 4 inches below. You don't want to irrigate like normal. Just a few minutes should do it. Definitely don't do it before rain to prevent it washing down past the root zone.


So what diseases are you treating with a soil application? The Serenade Ready to Spray has directions for applying to a lawn and it is to spray as a foliar spray. It lists brown patch as a disease controlled. Brown patch is a soil borne disease so it would seem to make sense to apply something to the soil. But the Serenade directions (on this ready to spray product targeted to lawns) say to apply to the leaves. The stuff in the ready to spray bottle is the same as in the other bottles.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.bayeradvanced.com/~/media/BayerAdvanced/Product%2520Labels/Serenade-Garden-RTS-28oz.ashx&ved=0ahUKEwiLxL30kbPUAhWD8j4KHWq2AtUQFgg5MAI&usg=AFQjCNENKGrcAw2pks_0YXYXLTaq6yRJwQ&sig2=eFoovFaNorPWfZSRY-3P6w


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> This one https://www.walmart.com/ip/Sevin-Daconil-Fungicide-Concentrate-16-oz/16795190
> I'm going to see if HD will price match + 10% (because HD is closer to me).
> 
> Things dried out nicely today and I couldn't find much of what I saw earlier. I'm still going to spray it as a preventative because I know things are gonna get raunchy soon.
> ...


I do remember seeing that bottle on the shelf near me and that's some pretty cheap stuff which is good. I may keep that in the back of my mind if things get out of control with my plan. Good to know and thanks! :thumbup:


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> > To get it into the root zone for soil apps, water immediately after spraying with a pump or backpack. Put down 10-20 gal/K, or whatever it takes to penetrate about 4 inches below. You don't want to irrigate like normal. Just a few minutes should do it. Definitely don't do it before rain to prevent it washing down past the root zone.
> ...


So they make that confusing. :? If Brown Patch is soil borne disease I wonder why Serenade would say spray as a foliar. Maybe it has something to do with the mode of action that Serenade uses and how it treats foliar but works downward into the plant eventually to the roots. Just a guess...


----------



## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

A lot of people are saying Daconil can leave a white film on the grass if applied too heavily, but I wouldn't know anything about that.


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> LIgrass said:
> 
> 
> > To get it into the root zone for soil apps, water immediately after spraying with a pump or backpack. Put down 10-20 gal/K, or whatever it takes to penetrate about 4 inches below. You don't want to irrigate like normal. Just a few minutes should do it. Definitely don't do it before rain to prevent it washing down past the root zone.
> ...


I mostly did the soil apps with Companion for Summer Patch. I mainly used Serenade as a foliar spray.

I looked at my bottle of Serenade from last year and oddly it doesn't list Brown Patch. Not sure what changed. I'm definitely no expert on BP. I don't have to deal with it so I never really looked into it. Nclawnguy would sure be helpful here (although I don't think he uses bios). Anyway, my take on BP is it's soil borne but only affects (and spreads) from the crown up. So that's probably why foliar apps are required. I could be wrong though. Either way, I'm skeptical that Serenade will do much for BP.


----------



## LIgrass (May 26, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> A lot of people are saying Daconil can leave a white film on the grass if applied too heavily, but I wouldn't know anything about that.


I've heard this as well and will look for that in my tests. What does it last, about 1-2 weeks?


----------



## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

LIgrass said:


> I've heard this as well and will look for that in my tests. What does it last, about 1-2 weeks?


The dang stuff doesn't come off the grass regardless how much you try to rinse it, it lasts until you mow it off. So I've heard.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Lawndad said:


> Virginiagal said:
> 
> 
> > LIgrass said:
> ...


The Serenade I am using now is Serenade ASO and it does not list brown patch as a controlled disease. The Serenade I had previously was the concentrate in a quart bottle. It did not list any turfgrass use and did not list brown patch. The brown patch reference is only on the ready to spray bottle. So what's the difference? They all have the same percentage of active ingredient. Maybe they are targeting different products to different users? What I have now is clearly for farmers. The label goes into a lot of detail on chemigation, lots of details on various crops. I know brown patch starts on the roots. Do the spores stay there? I have seen mycelium on the leaves. Even if the spores don't go to the leaves where Serenade could kill them, I guess at least Serenade is improving the overall health of the plant and in that way is helping to ward off disease. I am intrigued by the idea of mixing Serenade with a fungicide. It seems farmers are using it that way as a way to improve the efficacy of the fungicide. And it apparently helps in the problem of developing resistance to a fungicide.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I did some reading on brown patch. It has no spores! The mycelium does the infection. And that's on the leaves and stems. So there seems no point in doing soil applications. All the action is happening on the above ground parts. It overwinters in the soil, so it comes from the soil. But it seems like treatment (preventative/curative) ought to be focused on the foliage.


----------



## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I contacted Bayer about Serenade. The rep said foliar and soil drench applications are both effective. I asked specifically about preventing brown patch in turfgrass.


----------



## Lawndad (May 23, 2017)

Virginiagal said:


> I contacted Bayer about Serenade. The rep said foliar and soil drench applications are both effective. I asked specifically about preventing brown patch in turfgrass.


That's good to know. I'll continue with foliar that way it will cover a good amount that I tend to deal with in my lawn including brown patch. Thanks for the info.


----------

