# Overseeded shady area, thrived in spring/summer/fall then died by spring



## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

I have a shady area in my backyard. 2 years ago i planted some sun/shade mix in my backyard, it thrived, but then when spring rolled around the next year most of the grass was dead, in fact most of the area that was grass was now DIRT.

I then stupidly overseeded last year with some mostly perenial rye-grass in this spot, it thrived, then by spring, same thing. Lots of dirt.

The shaded area has pine trees. I thought i was having an acidic soil issue, but it came back as a ph of 7-7.2, and i read about 15 sites that said pine needles don't raise the soil ph, and its a wives tale. I do think the less than ideal soil, shallow pine tree root depth and shade is the issue.

I've just seeded this area for a 3rd year with Pennington Dense Shade seed. Hoping that will grow and survive the winter.

I suppose i should mention i'm in Wisconsin, the whole yard is covered in snow the whole winter from about early December to mid April. The front yard that was covered in snow has never had an issue after the snow melts.

Thoughts?


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

What's your height of cut? How did it look going into the winter? Did you winterize? Have you checked the moisture in the soil this spring?


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Hoc was 2.5"
It looked great, lots of grass, this spring, mostly dirt.
Yes I put a winterizer on it last fall. 
I didn't check the soil moisture this spring, would I do that by taking a core sample?


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Can post the soil test results? Pictures may help as well.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

bernstem said:


> Can post the soil test results? Pictures may help as well.


I'll post some pictures in a bit.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

https://youtu.be/XnvWsko9eQQ
made a video for you. footage taken on 4/28


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## sirvictory444 (Mar 13, 2021)

Hmmm, following this thread. I see they mark potassium K as sufficient with 39ppm on your test results. My Waypoint Analytical test said low at 79ppm so I just put down 1lb/k of K in the form of MOP. Should I not have? These soil tests are very confusing at times.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

sirvictory444 said:


> Hmmm, following this thread. I see they mark potassium K as sufficient with 39ppm on your test results. My Waypoint Analytical test said low at 79ppm so I just put down 1lb/k of K in the form of MOP. Should I not have? These soil tests are very confusing at times.


beats me. =) looks like we're in the same boat of confusion.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

I'm also in central WI and have an area on the north side of my house that I have seeded at least 6 times in 10 years with similar results as your own. Obviously, we both should expand our natural areas and stop trying to grow turf there, or at least try fine fescue. That being said, I laid 10 rolls of sod last fall and it looks far better than any seed the following spring. I'm sure it will thin itself over time, but for $20 I don't have to walk through mud on that side of my house this year.

Non-affiliated local tip: Anderson Sod Farm in Neenah has 10sf rolls of 100% KBG for $2.10/roll if picked up at the farm. You need to order any quantity, as they only cut what they have sold.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Miggity said:


> I'm also in central WI and have an area on the north side of my house that I have seeded at least 6 times in 10 years with similar results as your own. Obviously, we both should expand our natural areas and stop trying to grow turf there, or at least try fine fescue. That being said, I laid 10 rolls of sod last fall and it looks far better than any seed the following spring. I'm sure it will thin itself over time, but for $20 I don't have to walk through mud on that side of my house this year.
> 
> Non-affiliated local tip: Anderson Sod Farm in Neenah has 10sf rolls of 100% KBG for $2.10/roll if picked up at the farm. You need to order any quantity, as they only cut what they have sold.


Ooooh, excellent tip. I might have to do this if the Pennington dense shade doesn't last this year.

Neenah isn't too far.

Another tip - don't ever "rent" the top dresser from HSU compost out of Wausau. they didn't adjust it, the nuts were rusted and I couldn't adjust it without cutting off the bolt and replacing, so it wouldn't spread if over half full. Kind of defeats the purpose if you can only spread 5SF at a time... :evil: .

Maybe somebody else will chime in with some tips for our lawn die out.

Did yours look good through summer and fall then by spring start looking crappy?


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

I used Pennington dense shade mix twice. Looked great going into winter, sick by summer and back to dirt by fall, just inviting you to buy more and seed again. This will be my first summer with sod in the worst area and Mazama seed in the thin parts on the same side of the house. I'm a glutton for punishment.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Miggity said:


> I used Pennington dense shade mix twice. Looked great going into winter, sick by summer and back to dirt by fall, just inviting you to buy more and seed again. This will be my first summer with sod in the worst area and Mazama seed in the thin parts on the same side of the house. I'm a glutton for punishment.


Maybe i'll try overseeding with Barenbrug RTF. Deeper roots, rhyzomatic (is that a word) growth to repair these spots.

https://www.barusa.com/products/turf-saver-rtf.htm

I had also thought of just extending my deck and using roundup on the other super dirt spot and just changing where the "lawn" meets the "forrest" of my .45acre lot.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

RTF will spread, but very slowly. I would not see it as a solution to a shady area as it is still TTTF and needs sun. The thin areas look like shaded from trees/house and keeping grass happy there is going to be a challenge. You can try shade tolerant grasses like Fine Fescues and the more shade tolerant TTTF. With TTTF and shade, you can expect to need overseeding frequently.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

isn't RTF a TTTF?

Why does the new grass still thrive for a year in the shade, but then after winter it dies?


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> Hoc was 2.5"
> It looked great, lots of grass, this spring, mostly dirt.
> Yes I put a winterizer on it last fall.
> I didn't check the soil moisture this spring, would I do that by taking a core sample?


Honestly, the back of your yard is not that bad and easily remedied with Fert, higher height of cut, and more water. Start out simple, max out your HOC where the grass will stand up. When you fertilize make 1 or 2 EXTRA passes over the thin area and grab a screwdriver and see if you can push it into the ground. It should slide right in, if its difficult, you need to water. I bet you in a month everything will be fine.

2.5 is too short in the shade. In the video you posted your entire lawn looks shorter than 2.5". In the shade you need the maximum length that the grass will still stand up without flopping over for maximum photosynthesis / root development / and ability to hold more water. 3.5"+. Longer grass will be better able to capture moisture from the air overnight when dew forms & longer grass has the appearance of being thicker.

Along the perimeter of the rear those trees roots are going to suck up a lot of nitrogen, canopy will block the sun & block any rain from reaching the soil directly under them, and they are going to drink all of the water out of the soil in their root zone.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jackson said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> > Hoc was 2.5"
> ...


Let me clarify 2 things. 
1. I don't have any issues growing grass in these "dirt spots". I'll plant seed in the spring and by summer/fall its thick and tall. The problem is that sometime between fall and spring the grass in the "dirt spots" disappears. It turns to mush and then after the snow melts, I have dirt again.

2. I mow in Summer/fall at 2.5". The whole lawn in that video is probably 1-1.5" tall because I was doing some major work this spring, hoping to get this pennington dense shade mix to grow well. 
I cut down to 1-1.5", dethatched, scarified, backpack blew, aerated, overseeded, rolled, sprayed with tenacity, put half a dose of 10-10-10 on the lawn as I already had higher phosphate numbers and didn't feel the need for an actual starter fertilizer, and finally put EZ Straw down on all the really "dirt spots" to limit washout and animals from disturbing the seed.

You're absolutely right, in a month everything will be fine, it'll look great, but its getting old having to do this every spring, so i'm trying to figure out what's causing the die off.

Is it a shallow root problem? Do i need to help the new grass grow deeper roots?


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> Let me clarify 2 things.
> 1. I don't have any issues growing grass in these "dirt spots". I'll plant seed in the spring and by summer/fall its thick and tall. The problem is that sometime between fall and spring the grass in the "dirt spots" disappears. It turns to mush and then after the snow melts, I have dirt again.
> 
> 2. I mow in Summer/fall at 2.5". The whole lawn in that video is probably 1-1.5" tall because I was doing some major work this spring, hoping to get this pennington dense shade mix to grow well.
> ...


Mush? As in wet? Based on the trees, I assumed you had the opposite issues. Work on your drainage - if you don't want a big project "shampoo" that spot to get the water to penetrate. Roots are being drowned. Raise your height of cut to a minimum of 3.25" and fertilize! Dense fertilized grass = More / thicker roots to act as a sponge and longer blades = more leaf area to hold water.

My neighbor who likes his lawn really short had a similar issue in his back corner from late summer through late fall. It was so mushy that he couldn't even mow because his feet / mower would sink. Once he got his height of cut up for an entire season - he has not had any issues since.


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## hankhill11 (May 20, 2019)

I am also in WI, and have a new-to-me neglected lawn as of last fall. I haven't started in on the lawn yet. My south side and much of the north is shade and looks pretty cruddy with dirt and pine garbage.

I was going to go for the same grass seed (pennington dense shadE) and see how it does once i'm ready, so i'll be watching this as well.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jackson said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> > Let me clarify 2 things.
> ...


perhaps this is a stupid question, but are you saying that in the winter, the soil may not be draining and that is drowning the roots? I thought in winter the ground froze and the precipitation just sat on top.

Also what is shampoo-ing of a lawn?


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

hankhill11 said:


> I am also in WI, and have a new-to-me neglected lawn as of last fall. I haven't started in on the lawn yet. My south side and much of the north is shade and looks pretty cruddy with dirt and pine garbage.
> 
> I was going to go for the same grass seed (pennington dense shadE) and see how it does once i'm ready, so i'll be watching this as well.


I'll be sure to post back on the Pennington.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

has anybody tried shoveling the snow, or snowblowing their parts of their yard where after winter the grass is dead?


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## sirvictory444 (Mar 13, 2021)

steffen707 said:


> has anybody tried shoveling the snow, or snowblowing their parts of their yard where after winter the grass is dead?


That sounds way overkill. We already do enough stuff on our lawns all the time. Winter is our break! I'm not sure it would do anything anyway, you'd have to lower the skid shoes to raise the scraper blade to avoid scalping the lawn (pun in there somewhere?) so there would still be some snow covering which would not thaw once the ground is frozen. Pointless IMHO.


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > steffen707 said:
> ...


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> perhaps this is a stupid question, but are you saying that in the winter, the soil may not be draining and that is drowning the roots? I thought in winter the ground froze and the precipitation just sat on top.
> 
> Also what is shampoo-ing of a lawn?


Is it saturated in those areas?

If your lawn is healthy in the fall and you do ANY late fertilization, it should be alive and vigorous in the spring.

Im making assumptions based on what you have told me. I don't know your sun exposure, shade areas. You're not that far from me - I have a patch that is shaded all day when the sun is low and its the last to wakeup because the soil is too cold - as of this week that patch is finally off to the races - what is your soil temp in that area? Is it above 60? If not, stop reading - that is your issue. The more I think about this - the more I think this is the problem.

If its not dormant I would bet money that this is a water issue based on the fact it grows fine throughout the fall and then dies (if its not dormant) by the spring - Your trees are either shade droughting & sucking up all of the water and weakening / killing your grass or you have a drainage issue that is killing your grass. A screwdriver and observation will tell you what's going on. If you cant easily push it in - its too dry - if it goes in easy its perfect - if its mushy when you step it's too wet.

My thought is that the damage is being done in the late fall with the excess rain that is typical of the season pooling up in that area and preventing the roots from getting ready for winter, and again in the spring when the 1. snow melts & 2. get spring showers. The excess moisture also prevents the ground from warming up which can prolong dormancy. Grass can only tolerate so much water and then it drowns and/or rots.

If you have excess water the soap helps the water penetrate into the soil. I don't irrigate - so I do it over the summer months before a good rainstorm to capture as much water as deeply as I can get it (which also encourages deep roots). You can use baby shampoo, cheap shampoo, there are threads and I think Ryan Knorr did a video - I use Palmolive original. Buy it in a huge jug at Costco. Off the top of my head I think the recommendation is 3oz/k. Put it in a hose end sprayer or a hand can dilute with water and spray the whole yard and slow down and give any areas with suboptimal drainage a heavy dose.

No, you don't need to shovel snow off of your grass. That is crazy.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

oh man, i feel so dumb, HA My wife showed me these pictures she took this spring.. I'm now reading up on french drains, yard drains, downspout drains.

From what i can tell downspout drains take the water off the house and put it where you want it.
Yard drains take standing water and move it somewhere.
French drains take water that has percolated through the soil into a pipe to where you want it to go.

If all the water in this photo is coming off the roof, I know what to do.

If this is also from yard snow melting, I don't know what to do. Will water sitting on the ground in springtime move through the soil to a french drain perforated pipe? Or do i need a yard drain that can take the standing water and move it somewhere?

One more question I have is, why does standing water like this kill the grass? is it because of thawing/freezing in springtime? Is it because the soil is so saturated that the roots rot?


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## Lawndress (Jul 9, 2020)

Try poa supina. It takes FOREVER to establish strongly, but I'm now in love with it for shade.

My fine fescue dies when it gets too wet.


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

That will do it!

If it's just snow melt, it's shouldn't do much damage / kill anything. We had feet of snow this year with standing water and rain on top and I didn't notice any different than typical years.

If this is a seasonal and not a big enough problem to remember, I doubt you need any major drainage work outside of redirecting downspouts. You have a poorly flocculating soil in that area which can be remidied by repeated shampooing of your yard / that area starting now and continuing through the fall. Your yard will have a much greater capacity to hold water which means less will run-off to that area and whatever water is in that area will penetrate instead of staying at the surface. This option is VERY cheap and will in all likelihood save you money in the long term on your water bill because you will not need to water because your yard will hold the rain deeper into the soil; and good grass seed is very expensive especially when it's an annual expense.

Prolonged standing water kills in a couple of ways. 1. The roots / leaves need oxygen and standing water is typically poorly oxygenated water so the grass literally drowns and/or the wet enviorment rots the roots. 2, the weight of the water paired with the waterlogged soil compacts the soil enough to make water penetration very poor which forces your grass to have shallow roots. This means that whatever you grow is never as healthy as it's capable of being.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jackson said:


> That will do it!
> 
> If it's just snow melt, it's shouldn't do much damage / kill anything. We had feet of snow this year with standing water and rain on top and I didn't notice any different than typical years.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the tips. So perhaps I have a compaction issue which is causing the grass in that area to not grow deep roots, then when I do have this standing water issue in the springtime it just kills everything there. I've lived in this house for 5 years, and the springs of years 1-2 I didn't have a ton of dirt patches like I now have in springs 3,4,5.

So I think I need to core aerate this spot, try the shampooing through fall and try to promote deep root growth with whatever grass grows from this springs overseeding. Then in fall i'm going to install temporary PVC piping to the 2 gutters in the back of my house to run that water deep into my wooded area where i don't care if the water pools.

Then next spring I will document the backyard situation better to develop a better game plan if I need to tackle a lawn drain, gutter redirection, ect, in the 2022 season.


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

I personally wouldn't core aerate unless the plan was to overseed / starter fert afterwards.

If you mow at 3.25"+ & shampoo your yard a few times this year and continue in the future, I bet you won't even have to worry about this problem anymore.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jackson said:


> I personally wouldn't core aerate unless the plan was to overseed / starter fert afterwards.
> 
> If you mow at 3.25"+ & shampoo your yard a few times this year and continue in the future, I bet you won't even have to worry about this problem anymore.


Do you have a url to a discussion or article that explains what shampooing your lawn is? Do people put shampoo in a hose end sprayer and just spray their lawns?


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > I personally wouldn't core aerate unless the plan was to overseed / starter fert afterwards.
> ...


I use Plain old Original Palmolive. Ive applied with a tank sprayer as well


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

Jackson said:


> steffen707 said:
> 
> 
> > Jackson said:
> ...


Do you add yucca powder to it?


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## Jackson (Sep 18, 2019)

steffen707 said:


> Do you add yucca powder to it?


No, just plain ol' Palmolive.


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## steffen707 (Apr 9, 2021)

steffen707 said:


> Jackson said:
> 
> 
> > I personally wouldn't core aerate unless the plan was to overseed / starter fert afterwards.
> ...


Okay, i researched the whole shampooing thing and i'll post my findings later, just wanted to say the overseeding shady area and rest of the lawn is germinating, YAY!


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