# Flowerbed border - concrete base or no?



## NeVs (Aug 17, 2018)

I've been working with a handful of landscapers to get ideas, recommendations and ultimately bids.

We are leaning towards stacked moss rock 2-4 rows high.

The one landscaper that sticks out, really has a nice vision and we get a good vibe that he actually connects with his work and cares about what he produces. He is the most expensive and also the only one that is recommending a 4" wide concrete/rebar base for the foundation of the flower bed border.

The other landscapers do not recommend it, they say its more work and stated most of their customers that have insisted on it, end up wanting their flower beds redesigned which then creates even more work to tear up the foundation.

What do you guys think??


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

Live edge and no concrete gets my vote.


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## hsvtoolfool (Jul 23, 2018)

I like natural stone the most, brick next, or else something which mimics either. I have never seen a pour-in-place concrete curbing that I like, dyed or natural.

I chose Belgard Anglia Edgers which matched the pavers I used. Their products are dyed, cast concrete blocks that mimic natural stone pretty darn well. They're much less expensive than real stone (but not cheap!), and very, very heavy. These products have multiple colors like natural stone and are much nicer than what you see in Home Stores. The Anglia Edgers were a ginormous physical pain to lug around and install. But I was extremely pleased with the final result....

Belgard Anglia Edgers

Belgard just released a new curbing product I probably would have used if it had been available 3 years ago...

Belgard Manor Curb

Otherwise, I agree 100% with ThomasPI. There is no edger which stops Bermuda (and some other types) from invading the beds. You just use Roundup and/or pull stolons as needed. In my opinion, a tall curbing around a bed mostly contains the mulch and allows deep mulch to suppress weeds and hold in moisture.

Someone in the forum did a really cool border using bricks. It was a pattern of 5 or 6 bricks laid into the ground in a pattern. It was like a really narrow paver path around their mulch beds. You can't see it from the street, but it looked neat up close. I really liked that idea. I wish I could recall who did that. I saw the photo somewhere here.


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## NeVs (Aug 17, 2018)

hsvtoolfool said:


> I like natural stone the most, brick next, or else something which mimics either. I have never seen a pour-in-place concrete curbing that I like, dyed or natural.





ThomasPI said:


> Live edge and no concrete gets my vote.


Okay, so to clarify, there would be no visible concrete.

Here is a picture of concrete base with stacked moss rock.


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## hsvtoolfool (Jul 23, 2018)

Oooooh....nice! Did he explain why a concrete base is needed? A compacted limestone base seem like the best way to support that mini-wall. That's what is used below stacked retaining walls anyway.


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## ThomasPI (May 18, 2019)

NeVs said:


> hsvtoolfool said:
> 
> 
> > I like natural stone the most, brick next, or else something which mimics either. I have never seen a pour-in-place concrete curbing that I like, dyed or natural.
> ...


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## NeVs (Aug 17, 2018)

hsvtoolfool said:


> Oooooh....nice! Did he explain why a concrete base is needed? A compacted limestone base seem like the best way to support that mini-wall. That's what is used below stacked retaining walls anyway.


So he mortars the first row of stone onto the concrete.

Additional rows are loose stacked, staggered backward so part of the stone is supported by mulch/dirt underneath. This gives the wall front to back depth.

As for the benefits he stated.

He prefers this method ultimately for lower maintenance needs.

harder for grass to spread through. I have Zoysia so runners aren't an issue, and its sterile so no seeds to worry about. He said I'll never have grass spread past this wall

maintenance. I would only have to trim the top of the grass. No natural border to vertically trim as well.

And the border foundation will last for a very long time. Wont have any parts of the wall that may sink over time as soil settles/shifts.

I dont know if the extra cost is worth it....


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## NeVs (Aug 17, 2018)

So..... is it worth investing in the concrete foundation or just a waste of money?


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## hsvtoolfool (Jul 23, 2018)

Sorry, didn't know you were waiting for responses.

The photo of that little wall is gorgeous and you're giving me serious ideas for my back yard. How your contractor implements the effect is secondary to me. From your description, the builder is basically building a short brick-n-mortar wall using natural stone.

I think the question of "Is the concrete required?" goes way above my pay grade. You might consult with a landscape architect, civil engineer, or a similar professional engineer. Or you might ask the contractor about other options for the foundation work.

The permanence of rebar, concrete, and mortar for any hardscaping makes me cringe more so than the added expense. Anybody who wants to change the design later would have a major ordeal. I could also see drainage as a potential issue for clay soils like mine.

If your builder could make it last, I'd prefer them to use an ample 12" wide x 8" deep limestone gravel base, densely compacted in 2" layers, with final grade at about 2" to 4" below ground level. Basically, use the same techniques as retaining walls and pavers. The first course of wide, flat stones could then be laid on the limestone base, leveled, voids back-filled with more limestone gravel, and then carefully hand compacted. Alternatively, Belgard makes a "U Start Base Course Block" for their retaining walls which might make an ideal foundation instead of natural stones. Regardless, the rest of the stones could then be stacked dry, or perhaps use construction adhesive to glue them in place semi-permanently.

But maybe your contractor has tried similar methods and knows it won't last over time. Perhaps he knows from experience that a concrete foundation is required or his stone wall will imitate London Bridge.

I'd love to hear his opinion why concrete and rebar is required.


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## NeVs (Aug 17, 2018)

hsvtoolfool said:


> Sorry, didn't know you were waiting for responses.
> 
> The photo of that little wall is gorgeous and you're giving me serious ideas for my back yard. How your contractor implements the effect is secondary to me. From your description, the builder is basically building a short brick-n-mortar wall using natural stone.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input.

He essentially had two main reasons for why he prefers his method.

Longevity... which comes at the cost of your cringe, which also is a concern for me.

And second is maintenance, he said trimming is far easier cause you only trim the top of the grass and dont have to trim a natural border edge.


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## mtroo (Jul 31, 2018)

Is that a picture of work he has actually done? Have you seen, in person, an example of what he is proposing? What is the cost differential? If you want to know if you are just wasting money, that would be important to consider. The snap shot you sent looks spectacular. I am not sure how often people change their hardscaping when it is done properly, has little maintenance, and looks so appealing. If this is in a backyard where there would be no access with heavy equipment, then the permanence would be a concern. In the front of the house, if there is access for heavy equipment in the future, the difficulty of taking it out would be less concerning. I would make sure, while things are torn up, that you have at least a couple of sleeves under the foundation of the new wall to provide some future proofing with potential irrigation or landscape lighting needs, for instance.


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