# Herbicide Guide



## Suburban Jungle Life

This guide is to assist with herbicide choices and to help ease the long list of options. This is a breakdown of commonly used herbicides. Reference this list for a more complete chart. Use the companies in the quick links at the top of the page to purchase these herbicides. Plants have shown resistance to herbicides and this is becoming an increasing problem. Always apply herbicides using label rates. Lower rates may increase herbicide resistance. When optimal to do so, mix multiple groups so the plant is attacked in different ways making it much harder to build up any resistance. Always wear protective clothing per the product label. (Products listed in parenthesis are brand names. Look for generics to save $$.)

*Popular Herbicides*
*Group: 1*
*Clethodim* (GrassOut Max, Arrest Max)
Kills all grasses but not flowers and shrubs. Great when you accidentally "over" seed into mulch or flower beds.​*Fenoxaprop* (Acclaim Extra)
Mainly to control crabgrass, stiltgrass, and goosegrass.​*Fluazifop* (Fusilade II, Ornamec)
Stunts bermuda but helps to control crabgrass and goosegrass.​*Sethoxydim*
Kills all grasses but not flowers and shrubs. Great when you accidentally "over" seed into mulch or flower beds.​*Group: 2*
*Florasulam* (Defendor)
Targets broadleaf weeds. Works well in cooler temps.​*Halosulfuron* (Sedgehammer, Sedgemaster, ProSedge)
Mainly to targets sedges but also many broadleaf weeds.​*Imazapyr* (Polaris, TVC)
Pre and post-emergent. Non-selective. Kills almost everything. Lasts in the soil up to 1 year.​*Metsulfuron* (MSM Turf, Manor)
Targets many broadleaf weeds.​*Group: 3*
*Dithiopyr* (Dimension)
Pre-emergent and Post-emergent. Has some post emergent activity on crab grass. Doesn't have a long lasting effect, but it depends on application rate.​*Pendimethalin* (Pendulum)
Pre-emergent.​*Prodiamine* (Barricade, Resolute)
Pre-emergent. Lasts 3-8 months depending on application rate. Cheap. Apply in fall for winter weeds and apply in spring for summer weeds.​*Group: 4*
*2,4-D, Dicamba, MCPA, MCPP-Mecoprop* (Typical 3-way herbicide)
Post-emergent to target most broadleaf weeds. Main product for weed control. Dicamba shouldn't be used on tree roots.​*Quinclorac* (Drive)
Mainly to target crabgrass. Can be applied around seeding depending on type of grass seeded.​*Triclopyr*
Mainly for broadleaf weeds but works well on tougher plants like ivy. May stunt bermuda.​*Group: 5*
*Amicarbazone* (Xonerate)
Mainly for poa annua control. Also labelled for poa trivialis control. Big $$.​*Group: 8*
*Bensulide* (Bensumec)
Pre-emergent. Consider using this if you reach prodiamine and dithiopyr annual limits.​*Ethofumesate* (Poa Constrictor, Prograss, Rightline ETHO 4 SC)
Mainly to target poa annua. 2 apps in the fall and 1 in the spring (best as pre-emergent).​*Group: 9*
*Glyphosate* (Roundup)
Non-selective post-emergent. Kills all green plants. Bermuda will take multiple applications.​*Group: 10*
*Glufosinate* (Finale)
Non-selective post-emergent. Kills all plants but does not translocate systemically.​*Group: 14*
*Carfentrazone* (QuickSilver)
Works on many broadleaf weeds but mainly added to other herbicides to hasten their effects.​*Pyraflufen-ethyl* (Octane)
Works on many broadleaf weeds but mainly added to other herbicides to hasten their effects.​*Sulfentrazone* (Dismiss)
Mainly to target sedges but also works on many broadleaf weeds.​*Group: 21*
*Isoxaben* (Gallery)
Pre-emergent. Targets most broadleaf weeds. Not labelled to control crabgrass, goosegrass, and poa annua.​*Group: 22*
*Diquat* (Reward)
Non-selective post-emergent. Kills leaf tissue within 2-3 days but does not translocate systemically. Works well in cool weather. Add to glyphosate to speed up burndown.​*Group: 27*
*Mesotrione* (Tenacity)
Pre-emergent, mainly to target weeds during seeding. Also targets poa annua as a pre-emergent.
Post-emergent to target mainly bentgrass and nimblewill but has some activity on poa annua and bermuda.​*Topramezone* (Pylex)
Post-emergent to control bermuda and zoysia. Big $$$ but cost per 1000 sq ft is low.​
*
Adjuvants:*
Most herbicide's efficacy can be increased with the addition of surfactants, nitrogen, and ph adjustments. Always read the herbicide label as some specify which ones to use and which ones to avoid.
*Surfactants:*
NIS: non-ionic surfactant
COC: crop oil concentrate
MSO: methylated seed oil
Organosilicone​*Other additions:*
AMS: ammonium sulfate (nitrogen & lower PH)
citric acid: lower PH​
*
Popular Combinations*
*3 way herbicide*: Controls most broadleaf weeds.
2,4-D, Dicamba, MCPP or MCPA (usually already sold together but adding NIS and AMS can be helpful)​
*Soul Stealer*: Kills bermuda and zoysia grass for a renovation. Kills all other weeds and grasses too...
Triclopyr, Fluazifop, Glyphosate, (Topramezone if you have it), AMS, NIS. This has a 3 week reseed interval. Drop the Triclopyr and Fluazifop and Topramezone closer to seeding. Consider applying 2 apps of sethoxydim or clethodim prior to Soul Stealer.​
*Products available at home improvement stores*
It is best to buy concentrates since the costs are much lower per application from the companies in the quick links at the top of the page but if you have a really small yard or need something today...

Bayer Season Long Weed Control
3 way herbicide for most broadleaf weeds with a pre-emergent
2,4-D & MCPP & Dicamba & Isoxaben​Roundup for Lawns: (NOT glyphosate!!! Double check label)
Kills most broadleaf weeds including crabgrass and sedges.
MCPA & Dicamba & Quinclorac & Sulfentrazone​Spectracide Weed Stop for Lawns
3 way herbicide for most broadleaf weeds, same as WBG
2,4-D & Dicamba & MCPP​WBG: Weed B Gon
3 way herbicide for most broadleaf weeds
2,4-D & Dicamba & MCPP​WBG CCO: Weed B Gone Chickweed, Clover and Oxalis 
Management of tough broadleaf weeds
Triclopyr​WBG crabgrass: Weed B Gon crabgrass
Standard WBG with kicker to include management of crabgrass
2,4-D & Dicamba & Quinclorac​


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## Suburban Jungle Life

This is what I keep on hand and will take care of most problems:
1: Prodiamine
2: 3 way herbicide mix
3: Triclopyr
4: Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Halosulfuron (Sedgehammer)
5: Mesotrione (Tenacity)
6: Glyphosate

I use Prodiamine and this takes care of most of the problems. You will have very few weeds and may need to spot spray them or hand pull the few stragglers. I use a split application in early spring. If you aren't seeding in the fall, use it then as well. Prodiamine is a game changer!

I spot spray weeds on occasion. I typically use a 3 way herbicide mix (2,4-D & MCPP or MCPA & dicamba (Already comes mixed in a bottle)). Sometimes I like to add triclopyr to the 3 way to help with some of the tougher weeds like ivy and clover. I also add adjuvents such as AMS and NIS to boost efficacy.

Unless you have a large property, try to buy small quantities or split with someone else to save money. Most of the ones I use are pretty inexpensive.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

First, use the weed ID thread to confirm what you have if you aren't sure.

Common Problems and their controls:

_*Broadleaf weeds*_
Basically, all weeds with irregular shaped leaves which don't look like grass.
(Dandelions, clover, creeping charlie, wild violet, etc. )

Use a 3 way herbicide with AMS and NIS and add Triclopyr if you want. Or, spray the 3 way and wait a few weeks then spray Triclopyr if you still have some stubborn ones. Use Triclopyr for creeping charlie, wild violet, and clover. Make sure to apply Prodiamine or another pre-emergent in the early spring and early fall to stop most broadleaf weeds (except if you are seeding).

_*Moss*_
Carfentrazone. Soapy water. Heavy doses of iron. ZeroTol 2.0. Rake it out. Moss will come right back if you don't change it's optimal growing conditions. Soil test, correct PH, seed for a thick lawn, and keep fertilized. Reduce shade by trimming trees. Remove causes for damp conditions. If shade is from a house, remove the house for a beautiful lawn or consider a flower bed instead.

_*Grassy Weeds*_
Weeds which look more like grass with thinner and more uniform blades

*Barnyard grass*: Quinclorac. Mesotrione. Topramezone.

*Bentgrass*: Mesotrione as a post-emergent with NIS.

*Bermuda* (wiregrass): Topramezone and Triclopyr. For a renovation, use "soul stealer" in the OP. Most of the other options haven't shown great results. Hand pulling isn't reliable. The smallest piece of a stem will start a new plant and come right back. Be aware when using a core aerator as it can spread the bermuda everywhere.

*Crabgrass*: Quinclorac. It dies every winter at first frost so it is best to use Prodiamine in the spring when ground temps get into the early 50's. About the same time as the forsythia bloom. Crabgrass won't exist anymore with a pre-emergent so there isn't a need to buy anything else to control it.

*Dallisgrass*: Glyphosate. Topramezone with Triclopyr. In fescue, try 2 apps of Fluazifop or 2 apps of Fluazifop & Mesotrione (so-so control). Make sure to use Prodiamine in the spring to stop new plants.

*Foxtail*: Mesotrione as a post-emergent. Topramezone. Quinclorac.

*Goosegrass*: Mesotrione as a post-emergent. Fenoxaprop. Fluazifop. Topramezone. It is best to use Prodiamine in the spring to prevent it. Goosegrass germinates when soil temps get into the 60's.

*Nimblewill*: Mesotrione as a post-emergent. Topramezone. Glyphosate.

*Nutsedge*: Halosulfuron if you have a little (comes in a small packet. Cheap). Sulfentrazone if you have a lot. Mesotrione as a post-emergent. Don't hand pull it. The small nutlets underground break off and it grows back and multiplies.

*Orchardgrass*: Glyphosate. Hand pull it.

*Poa annua* (annual bluegrass): This is best done on a pre-emergent basis. Apply 2 rounds of Mesotrione and Ethofumesate in the fall for fescue and rye. Read labels and time around seeding. After the 2 months of coverage these give, apply prodiamine for the rest of winter. Apply prodiamine to cover any spring growth. This should be done for many years as the seed bank can be large. For bluegrass, apply prodiamine late summer and early spring. Don't overseed. Use nitrogen to help grass spread. Another option for control is Amicarbazone.

*Poa trivialis* (roughstalk bluegrass): Glyphosate in spring time. You can use Mesotrione as a post-emergent to turn it white and make it easier to see but it won't kill it. May not have complete kill at other times of the year. Another option is Amicarbazone.

*Quackgrass*: Glyphosate. Fluazifop. May take multiple sprays.

*Star of Bethlehem*: Sulfentrazone. Some may survive until next year so treat as needed.

*Stiltgrass*: Topramezone. Glyphosate. Fluazifop. May take multiple sprays.

*Wild Onion & Garlic*: Most herbicides are labelled to take care of these. The reason these plants are hard to control is the narrow leaves and waxy coating. This makes it hard for herbicides to stick to them. The bulbs underground also gives them plenty of reserves to make it through an herbicide app. Be sure to spot spray them as you see them pop up during the year and use a surfactant. Full control may take a couple years. If you wish to hand pull them, use a shovel and be sure to get all the bulbs or it will come right back. Bulbs may be as deep as 6".

*Zoysia*: Topramezone and Triclopyr. For a renovation, use "soul stealer" in the OP. Hand pulling isn't reliable. The smallest piece of a stem will start a new plant and come right back. Be aware when using a core aerator as it can spread the zoysia everywhere.


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## rockinmylawn

Any guidance for Herbicides around trees - as close as the tree's branch reach not root zone - as I have 20 evergreen Green Giants & their leaves don't reach as far vs. say a leaf dropping tree.

But not knowing how far their root zones are underneath the ground, I have laid down WBG or Speedzone with Dicamba within 2-3 ft of the leaf zones in the past that I fear it might have some damaging effect.


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## pennstater2005

Excellent write up! What you have on hand @Suburban Jungle Life is nearly identical to what I have.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

rockinmylawn said:


> Any guidance for Herbicides around trees - as close as the tree's branch reach not root zone - as I have 20 evergreen Green Giants & their leaves don't reach as far vs. say a leaf dropping tree.
> 
> But not knowing how far their root zones are underneath the ground, I have laid down WBG or Speedzone with Dicamba within 2-3 ft of the leaf zones in the past that I fear it might have some damaging effect.


The biggest problem is when you accidentally spray the tree leaves. The next would be if the tree root or bark is injured and then the tree can easily absorb any herbicide. For example, you accidentally mow the root or hit a root/bark with a string trimmer and then spray herbicide.

Dicamba is specified on the label to keep away from the root zone. Many tree's roots extend up to 2 times the reach of the leaves. Best to keep it that far away and only spray on days with no wind and avoid times when inversion may occur. Choose a different herbicide instead.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

pennstater2005 said:


> Excellent write up! What you have on hand @Suburban Jungle Life is nearly identical to what I have.


Thanks! I couldn't find a quick reference so I figured I'd write one up. There are probably 200 herbicides but I tried to pick the most popular ones. I'll keep adding if others have recommendations.


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## Harts

Excellent guide. Do you think it would be beneficial to add typical brand names, for example Weed B Gon CCO (Triclopyr) or Ortho Killex (2, 4-D, Dicamba, MCPP)? Might help someone who is completely new and unsure of what product to buy. You have already done a few (glyphosate, mesotrione etc.).

I also realize this is more work on your end!


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Harts said:


> Excellent guide. Do you think it would be beneficial to add typical brand names, for example Weed B Gon CCO (Triclopyr) or Ortho Killex (2, 4-D, Dicamba, MCPP)? Might help someone who is completely new and unsure of what product to buy. You have already done a few (glyphosate, mesotrione etc.).
> 
> I also realize this is more work on your end!


I thought about that but there are a million combinations and just soo many products. I feel it would take weeks to complete. Would it be beneficial to list just a few commonly used ones?


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## PA Lawn Guy

Do you recall the effective ingredient in Preen? Is it a Group 3?

Edit: trifluralin

This list is an awesome resource, thank you for putting it together!


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## Harts

You make a good point. I think just the common ones (the bare necessities).

I think I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who comes to this board for the first time who doesn't have a clue (I mean that respectively, of course). Someone who wants a level 1 or wants to get to level 2.

Group: 3
Dithiopyr (Dimension)
Pre-emergent and Post-emergent. Has some post emergent activity on crab grass. Doesn't have a long lasting effect.
Prodiamine (Barricade)
Pre-emergent. Lasts 3-8 months depending on application rate. Cheap. Apply in fall for winter weeds and apply in spring for summer weeds.

Group: 4
2,4-D, Dicamba, MCPA, MCPP (Mecoprop) (Weed B Gon)
Mainly to target most broadleaf weeds. Dicamba shouldn't be used on tree roots.
Triclopyr (Weed B Gon CCO)
Mainly for broadleaf weeds but works well on tougher plants like ivy. Has some activity on bermuda.


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## pennstater2005

If you're just starting out herbicides can be daunting. This will be a nice resource to direct people. I always recommend Weed B Gon as a starting point. If folks go down the rabbit hole deep enough they'll figure out they can buy in concentrate off brand for cheaper. It's just easier to say go to Lowe's..........


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Harts said:


> You make a good point. I think just the common ones (the bare necessities).
> 
> I think I'm looking at this from the perspective of someone who comes to this board for the first time who doesn't have a clue (I mean that respectively, of course). Someone who wants a level 1 or wants to get to level 2.


I think I'll add a list at the bottom with common products from a home improvement store. As for prodiamine, I'm thinking most people would buy the generic not barricade. I listed a few of the others since many have talked about them interchangeably such as glyphosate and roundup.


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## pennstater2005

To be clear you are writing this only as a cool season herbicide guide, correct? If so this could be attached to @g-man's lawn guide to make it easier to find.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

pennstater2005 said:


> If you're just starting out herbicides can be daunting. This will be a nice resource to direct people. I always recommend Weed B Gon as a starting point. If folks go down the rabbit hole deep enough they'll figure out they can buy in concentrate off brand for cheaper. It's just easier to say go to Lowe's..........


This was my idea. I wasn't going to list every herbicide and everything each one controls. Just the main points so someone starting with herbicides can see what they might need. I'll add a list of home store products.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

pennstater2005 said:


> To be clear you are writing this only as a cool season herbicide guide, correct? If so this could be attached to @g-man's lawn guide to make it easier to find.


Definitely cool season! Half of that stuff I listed I wouldn't use on warm season grass. They mostly use celsius, certainty, and msm at higher rates. This in contrast to the fungicide guide I wrote which is more general but still slightly more focused on cool season. Especially in the comments section but the OP being a good reference for everyone.


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## Harts

Sounds great! I really appreciate the time and effort you are putting into this and your other threads.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@Harts Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## g-man

I will added it tonight when I get to a PC instead of a cell.


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## g-man

I think there is one herbicide that we should add, pylex. It is very expensive right now, but once generic, it should be a game changer like tenacity was.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

g-man said:


> I think there is one herbicide that we should add, pylex. It is very expensive right now, but once generic, it should be a game changer like tenacity was.


 :thumbup:


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## LawnNeighborSam

Great post thx @Suburban Jungle Life, @g-man, and everyone else


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## friscolawner

Thanks for all those deep details. 
I wish i found that website before march  
my yards would be much more different but will be.....


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## Suburban Jungle Life

friscolawner said:


> Thanks for all those deep details.
> I wish i found that website before march
> my yards would be much more different but will be.....


Keep in mind, a nice lawn is a marathon not a short sprint. The pro's are constantly chasing that ideal turf. Nothing to rushed about. You'll work on it year after year and it'll keep looking better and better. Patience...


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## g-man

+10000


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Has anyone tried Florasulam (Defendor)? It seems to be advertised as working better in cooler temps. I'm wondering how it compares to an ester 2,4D mixed with triclopyr.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Is anyone having trouble sourcing poa constrictor? Is it discontinued?


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## craigdt

A general question about mixing herbicides:

What are the guidelines for mixing products? 
If they are the same group, should you only mix at lower rates? If they are different groups, can you use both at full rates?

I've got several clover patches and some other broad leaf weeds that need to be addressed later this spring.

At my disposal are a 3-way, Carfentrazone (Quicksilver) and triclopyr.

Can I mix all 3 at full strength, or do I need to stagger the applications?


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## Dkrem

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Roundup for Lawns: (NOT glyphosate!!! Double check label)
> Kills most broadleaf weeds including crabgrass and sedges.
> MCPA & Dicamba & Quinclorac & Sulfentrazone​Spectracide Weed Stop for Lawns
> 3 way herbicide for most broadleaf weeds, same as WBG
> 2,4-D & Dicamba & MCPP​


Spectracide weed stop is not the same formula as Weed-B-Gone. It is exactly the same ingredients and proportions as the "Roundup for lawns" product at 1/3 the price. It is a great cheap box store source of sulfentrazone and quinclorac for midsummer nutsedge.


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## Dkrem

Might be helpful to include creeping charlie and wild violet to the common problem weed list.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Dkrem said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Roundup for Lawns: (NOT glyphosate!!! Double check label)
> Kills most broadleaf weeds including crabgrass and sedges.
> MCPA & Dicamba & Quinclorac & Sulfentrazone​Spectracide Weed Stop for Lawns
> 3 way herbicide for most broadleaf weeds, same as WBG
> 2,4-D & Dicamba & MCPP​
> 
> 
> 
> Spectracide weed stop is not the same formula as Weed-B-Gone. It is exactly the same ingredients and proportions as the "Roundup for lawns" product at 1/3 the price. It is a great cheap box store source of sulfentrazone and quinclorac for midsummer nutsedge.
Click to expand...

The 'spectracide weed stop for lawns' doesn't have sulfentrazone (SDS). It's the same as WBG.

The 'spectracide weed stop for lawns plus crabgrass killer' has sulfentrazone (SDS).

I made a quick list for available products at home stores. It isn't an exhaustive list. Too many products to list and many more released often.

I appreciate everyone proofreading and correcting my mistakes! Accurate information is important!


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Dkrem said:


> Might be helpful to include creeping charlie and wild violet to the common problem weed list.


I focused the list for grassy weeds which are usually much harder to control than broad leaf weeds. I thought that's were people could use more guidance.

I'll add it to the examples under broad leaf though if that will help anyone. Thank you.

I rearranged that post. Hope that helps make it more clear.


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## Dkrem

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> The 'spectracide weed stop for lawns plus crabgrass killer' has sulfentrazone (SDS).


I've only ever seen the +crab version on shelves. It is nearly the same as roundup for lawns with 2,4-D instead of MCPA.



Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I made a quick list for available products at home stores. It isn't an exhaustive list. Too many products to list and many more released often.
> 
> I appreciate everyone proofreading and correcting my mistakes! Accurate information is important!


Oh sure. It is a great list and it can and should keep growing as a resource.


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## Dkrem

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Might be helpful to include creeping charlie and wild violet to the common problem weed list.
> 
> 
> 
> I focused the list for grassy weeds which are usually much harder to control than broad leaf weeds. I thought that's were people could use more guidance.
Click to expand...

These two broadleafs are very notoriously hard to kill.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Dkrem said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> Might be helpful to include creeping charlie and wild violet to the common problem weed list.
> 
> 
> 
> I focused the list for grassy weeds which are usually much harder to control than broad leaf weeds. I thought that's were people could use more guidance.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> These two broadleafs are very notoriously hard to kill.
Click to expand...

Triclopyr smokes them pretty well. Most people use typical 3 way so it doesn't do much.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Has anyone had success using a PreM(dimension) with a post Em(triplet) during the PreM spring window? I have a few broad leaf weeds throughout the lawn that I'm trying to kill off as well as getting my PreM down for crabgrass.

I overseeded part of my lawn last sept so I was just concerned putting both pre and post em's could stress out the lawn and have adverse effects.

I also reached out to GCF and they explained that adding their Humic products to preM's would not effect the effectiveness of the PreM, as long as it doesn't sit overnight for 24 hrs Mixed together in the tank. Would anyone oppose adding Humics with Pre abd post Em's?

My plan is try to hit the turf with RGS/Air8/Dimension/Triplet in one app.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@Scagfreedom48z+ I don't see a problem with pre and post in a mix. Best to water it in after a couple days though so the post has time to work and then the pre gets to the soil. If no water, hopefully it rains or maybe do a split app and put out another rate in a month and hopefully one of them gets enough water and not too much sun.

As for rgs and pre/post, that should be fine. Air8 has a high ph I think, maybe 10 or something, and I'm not sure that would be best to mix with pre/post which normally are more effective and have longer half life in the 5-6 ph range (sulphonylureas aside). If you do mix air8 and pre/post, spray immediately and cross fingers. Otherwise, I would probably save the air8 for another time. I usually like to split my apps so I do pre/post in one and then a week or two later, I fert and rgs/air8. Though, I don't have 30M...

P.S. maybe throw in some AMS and NIS to your pre/post app.

I'm sure others will have some good suggestions too.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Scagfreedom48z+ I don't see a problem with pre and post in a mix. Best to water it in after a couple days though so the post has time to work and then the pre gets to the soil. If no water, hopefully it rains or maybe do a split app and put out another rate in a month and hopefully one of them gets enough water and not too much sun.
> 
> As for rgs and pre/post, that should be fine. Air8 has a high ph I think, maybe 10 or something, and I'm not sure that would be best to mix with pre/post which normally are more effective and have longer half life in the 5-6 ph range (sulphonylureas aside). If you do mix air8 and pre/post, spray immediately and cross fingers. Otherwise, I would probably save the air8 for another time. I usually like to split my apps so I do pre/post in one and then a week or two later, I fert and rgs/air8. Though, I don't have 30M...
> 
> P.S. maybe throw in some AMS and NIS to your pre/post app.
> 
> I'm sure others will have some good suggestions too.


I appreciate the info! I didn't know that the PH of the air8 was that high and would potentially effect the PreM. Thanks for that. Now this next question might be stupid but when you say split apps, you mean taking the recommended rate for 1 application and splitting it? Say for simple math, you have a chemical that recommends 1oz per 1000sqft. You would do .5 oz one month and the other .5 oz the next month?
Also I'm planning on doing a Reno in August 2019, would a split app of dimension have any risidual MOA thatbwould effect seed down, since I'm putting down a split apps a month later, causing the pre-m to extend its MOA a month longer?


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> when you say split apps, you mean taking the recommended rate for 1 application and splitting it? Say for simple math, you have a chemical that recommends 1oz per 1000sqft. You would do .5 oz one month and the other .5 oz the next month?
> Also I'm planning on doing a Reno in August 2019, would a split app of dimension have any risidual MOA thatbwould effect seed down, since I'm putting down a split apps a month later, causing the pre-m to extend its MOA a month longer?


If dimension lasts 3 months or a split app for 4 months before seeding and the label states 1-2 pints/acre, you could go with this rate/schedule:

April 1: 1 pt/acre or 11 ml/1M
May 1: 1 pt/acre or 11 ml/1M
June: none
July: none
Aug: none
Sept 1: seed. It's been 4 months since your last app. I would use a verticutter/dethatcher or something to disturb the surface to aid in breaking up an residual barrier and aid seed to soil contact anyway.

If you have a shorter summer and seed Aug 1, then maybe put out your first app sometime in early to mid May as long as the ground isn't frozen.

Though, if you are doing a reno, I'm not sure I would be that concerned with weeds since you are spraying out everything anyway. Maybe just 1 app now and let it do its thing. Whether it works well or so so, you're doing a reno anyway. I wouldn't worry too much about perfect pre timing if you're going to be smoking everything. Just be sure to have a solid plan and time apps early enough if you have bermuda or zoysia. They don't call it the alpha grass and dad of alpha grass for nothing...


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Haha. I just thought, you could actually measure in floz. Sorry. I use ml since I chop it into 1-3M or so sizes to spray.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Haha. I just thought, you could actually measure in floz. Sorry. I use ml since I chop it into 1-3M or so sizes to spray.


Lol no problem. I live in Ma. I have a cool season turf. I'll be doing a partial Reno where I'm going to nuke certain areas and renovate. The rest of the lawn that hasn't been overtaken by POA T and is going well, I will be overseeded. I also overseeded my front last year which I will most likely not overseed that again this year

Here is the application rate for dimension. So basically the split app would be .365 fl oz per 1M for the month of April and the same rate for the month of May?

I planning on doing the Reno by mid August this year and Inwould be breaking the PreM barrier with an aerator and I would believe that scalping the glypho'ed areas with the lawn mower would disturb it as well.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Scagfreedom48z+ said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> Haha. I just thought, you could actually measure in floz. Sorry. I use ml since I chop it into 1-3M or so sizes to spray.
> 
> 
> 
> Lol no problem. I live in Ma. I have a cool season turf. I'll be doing a partial Reno where I'm going to nuke certain areas and renovate. The rest of the lawn that hasn't been overtaken by POA T and is going well, I will be overseeded. I also overseeded my front last year which I will most likely not overseed that again this year
> 
> Here is the application rate for dimension. So basically the split app would be .365 fl oz per 1M for the month of April and the same rate for the month of May?
> 
> I planning on doing the Reno by mid August this year and Inwould be breaking the PreM barrier with an aerator and I would believe that scalping the glypho'ed areas with the lawn mower would disturb it as well.
Click to expand...

The label says 1-2 pt/acre so as a split, I would go with 1 pt/acre. What you said, 0.365 floz/1M. Once a month for 2 months.

If you were using prodiamine, the label is different and I would use the 3 month rate and apply that once a month for 2 months instead of putting down a larger app at one time.


----------



## bullet

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> The 'spectracide weed stop for lawns' doesn't have sulfentrazone (SDS). It's the same as WBG.
> 
> The 'spectracide weed stop for lawns plus crabgrass killer' has sulfentrazone (SDS).


It seems there's a new *Spectracide Weed Stop for Lawns Concentrate2* that has sulfentrazone now. At Lowes now for $5 per 40 oz. SDS


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Added xonerate. Didn't think anyone would buy it. Guess I was wrong.

Anything else I left out?


----------



## Farmboy11

I've got some patches of bermuda that have whitened up from a Tenacity application. Now that I can see where they are, I want to hit them with triclopyr, just to keep them in check. Is there an optimum time to do that? The Tenacity went down 3 weeks ago.


----------



## g-man

Bermuda needs more than triclopyr. Add Glyphosate.


----------



## Farmboy11

It's in and among some healthy turf I don't want to kill (yet). Hoping to just hold it at bay if I can.


----------



## jasonfackler

When mixing herbicides from different groups for use in a blanket application, can the full labeled rate for each herbicide be applied? Specifically, I want to mix Dismiss, Sedgehammer and Tenacity to kill off nutsedge.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

jasonfackler said:


> When mixing herbicides from different groups for use in a blanket application, can the full labeled rate for each herbicide be applied? Specifically, I want to mix Dismiss, Sedgehammer and Tenacity to kill off nutsedge.


Personally, I use dismiss only and at label rate, it seems to get rid of almost all the sedges. I do add adjuvants such as AMS and NIS to increase the efficacy. You could mix what you suggested if you want. Keep in mind, the more you add, it usually will stress the grass more. So, if you don't mind some browning for a bit, spray away! Not all grass reacts the same so you could try and spray a small area before going widespread to see the results. As for tenacity, I save it for early fall as I overseed annually. 2 apps of Tenacity at the high rate is the limit so I don't use it any other time.

Edit: Spraying sulfentrazone above 80-85 might brown the grass... Adding an adjuvant to it could make it worse.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> This is what I keep on hand and will take care of most problems:
> 1: 3 way herbicide mix
> 2: Mesotrione (Tenacity)
> 3: Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Halosulfuron (Sedgehammer)
> 4: Triclopyr
> 5: Glyphosate
> 6: Prodiamine
> 
> I use Prodiamine and this takes care of most of the problems. I spot spray on occasion. Prodiamine is a game changer! Sometimes I like to add triclopyr to the 3 way to help with some of the tougher weeds like ivy. I do use fluazifop but I have a bermuda problem so this may not be needed for everyone. I also have a poa annua problem so I use ethofumesate as well.
> 
> Unless you have a large property, try to buy small quantities or split with someone else to save money. Most of the ones I use are pretty inexpensive. Try to buy dry products when available to help extend shelf life.


Which 3-way do you use?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ohio Lawn said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I keep on hand and will take care of most problems:
> 1: 3 way herbicide mix
> 2: Mesotrione (Tenacity)
> 3: Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Halosulfuron (Sedgehammer)
> 4: Triclopyr
> 5: Glyphosate
> 6: Prodiamine
> 
> I use Prodiamine and this takes care of most of the problems. I spot spray on occasion. Prodiamine is a game changer! Sometimes I like to add triclopyr to the 3 way to help with some of the tougher weeds like ivy. I do use fluazifop but I have a bermuda problem so this may not be needed for everyone. I also have a poa annua problem so I use ethofumesate as well.
> 
> Unless you have a large property, try to buy small quantities or split with someone else to save money. Most of the ones I use are pretty inexpensive. Try to buy dry products when available to help extend shelf life.
> 
> 
> 
> Which 3-way do you use?
Click to expand...

I've been using southern ag but when I run out, I will buy whichever is cheapest $/app. I'm not brand loyal. I do always add AMS first to the water before the 3 way and NIS. If I'm doing a cleanup on a new lawn, I also add triclopyr and sulfentrazone. It is a hot mix so watch the temps. If the person is a complainer, I might toss in some carfentrazone.


----------



## Dkrem

Ohio Lawn said:


> Which 3-way do you use?


Sorry to butt in IMHO the best value out there is the Lesco 3-way in the 2.5gal jug: https://www.siteone.com/p/267154 from SiteOne. I have not found a product that can beat it for $/ksqft. last time I paid $72/2.5Gal.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Dkrem said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which 3-way do you use?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to butt in IMHO the best value out there is the Lesco 3-way in the 2.5gal jug: https://www.siteone.com/p/267154 from SiteOne. I have not found a product that can beat it for $/ksqft. last time I paid $72/2.5Gal.
Click to expand...

While that is definitely a good deal, I wouldn't recommend that quantity for a 12M lawn. After the first year clean up and using prodiamine, it's just spot spraying for me. I bought 1 gal and have about half left. I've been using it for 3 years. I'll probably get another 3 years out of it. If I were to buy more, I would stick with 1 gal or less and spend the rest on other products. Better to have a variety and mix it up instead of a ton of group 4. Having said that, I doubt it goes bad and you probably could keep it for 10 years or more but I'd rather not. Also in Ohio, I'm sure it's cold more than hot so maybe having some ester formulations instead of amine would be a good choice. Dkrem on the other hand has 4 times the property size so $/app becomes much more of a concern.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Dkrem said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Which 3-way do you use?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to butt in IMHO the best value out there is the Lesco 3-way in the 2.5gal jug: https://www.siteone.com/p/267154 from SiteOne. I have not found a product that can beat it for $/ksqft. last time I paid $72/2.5Gal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> While that is definitely a good deal, I wouldn't recommend that quantity for a 12M lawn. After the first year clean up and using prodiamine, it's just spot spraying for me. I bought 1 gal and have about half left. I've been using it for 3 years. I'll probably get another 3 years out of it. If I were to buy more, I would stick with 1 gal or less and spend the rest on other products. Better to have a variety and mix it up instead of a ton of group 4. Having said that, I doubt it goes bad and you probably could keep it for 10 years or more but I'd rather not. Also in Ohio, I'm sure it's cold more than hot so maybe having some ester formulations instead of amine would be a good choice. Dkrem on the other hand has 4 times the property size so $/app becomes much more of a concern.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the advice. This might be a big ask, but could you tell me which herbicides I should get to cover most of my bases? Maybe 4-6 essentials for a TTTF lawn in Ohio?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ohio Lawn said:


> Thanks for all the advice. This might be a big ask, but could you tell me which herbicides I should get to cover most of my bases? Maybe 4-6 essentials for a TTTF lawn in Ohio?


Definitely: 3 way, triclopyr, prodiamine, mesotrione for fall seeding

Optional: sulfentrazone if you have nutsedge, ethofumesate if you have a poa annua problem.

3 way and triclopyr kills pretty much all broad leaf weeds. Prodiamine should be used in early spring for all the summer weeds. I use mesotrione when I overseed in the fall. This will clean up the yard big time. Make sure you plant enough grass since the weeds leave lots of empty space. I also have on hand some adjuvents such as AMS and NIS.

The only thing left is grassy weeds which depends on how picky you want to be. Grassy weeds look like grass but have undesired characteristics. Try to ID the grassy weeds to be sure you have the right product. If you have a mixed lawn, this might be something to ignore. If you want a uniform growth and blade look, you should consider a renovation.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Awesome! I can't thank you enough! I think I'm going to order these from DMO (using the TLF link obviously lol)
https://www.domyown.com/way-max-turf-and-ornamental-broadleaf-herbicide-p-9853.html
https://www.domyown.com/prodiamine-65-wdg-generic-barricade-p-2495.html
https://www.domyown.com/tenacity-herbicide-p-1877.html
https://www.domyown.com/sulfentrazone-4l-select-p-17100.html

As for the Triclopyr, can I get that in a mix like Crosscut Select (2,4-D, butoxyethyl ester 34.4% Triclopyr, butoxyethyl ester 16.5%) or should I get it separate like in https://www.domyown.com/hiyield-triclopyr-ester-p-4543.html ?

I can't thank you enough.


----------



## Dkrem

Ohio Lawn said:


> As for the Triclopyr, can I get that in a mix like Crosscut Select (2,4-D, butoxyethyl ester 34.4% Triclopyr, butoxyethyl ester 16.5%) or should I get it separate like in https://www.domyown.com/hiyield-triclopyr-ester-p-4543.html ?


I prefer separate, since it is useful on its own or can me mixed if you want. I bought a standard Triclopyr only brush killer product, "brushtox"


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ohio Lawn said:


> Awesome! I can't thank you enough! I think I'm going to order these from DMO (using the TLF link obviously lol)
> https://www.domyown.com/way-max-turf-and-ornamental-broadleaf-herbicide-p-9853.html
> https://www.domyown.com/prodiamine-65-wdg-generic-barricade-p-2495.html
> https://www.domyown.com/tenacity-herbicide-p-1877.html
> https://www.domyown.com/sulfentrazone-4l-select-p-17100.html
> 
> As for the Triclopyr, can I get that in a mix like Crosscut Select (2,4-D, butoxyethyl ester 34.4% Triclopyr, butoxyethyl ester 16.5%) or should I get it separate like in https://www.domyown.com/hiyield-triclopyr-ester-p-4543.html ?
> 
> I can't thank you enough.


All looks good. I agree with Dkrem. Separate is best since you can use it individually. There are annual limits on all these products so you don't want to use too much overlap of 2,4-D in both products.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

@Ohio Lawn If it helps, I use a set of graduated cylinders to measure the liquids. Cheap set off amazon. Some products are quite concentrated and you only need a smidge especially if you spot spray and mix a small amount. I treat a lawn which is 200 sq ft and it isn't easy measuring 1.1 ml of liquid. Be sure you are accurate when spraying. This pro stuff is much stronger than the home store stuff. Watch the overlap, air temps, plants, and tree roots. Of course, read the labels. They tell you everything you need to know. Feel free to ask anytime for clarification!


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @Ohio Lawn If it helps, I use a set of graduated cylinders to measure the liquids. Cheap set off amazon. Some products are quite concentrated and you only need a smidge especially if you spot spray and mix a small amount. I treat a lawn which is 200 sq ft and it isn't easy measuring 1.1 ml of liquid. Be sure you are accurate when spraying. This pro stuff is much stronger than the home store stuff. Watch the overlap, air temps, plants, and tree roots. Of course, read the labels. They tell you everything you need to know. Feel free to ask anytime for clarification!


Ok great. Thank you for your help! I can get this https://www.domyown.com/hiyield-triclopyr-ester-p-4543.html
I'll definitely read all the labels throughly.

For someone new to herbicides, am I better off getting the items I listed previously or trying to simplify it by using something as a catch-all like SpeedZone (2,4-D, 2-ethylhexyl ester 28.57% Carfentrazone-ethyl 0.62% Dicamba 1.71% Mecoprop-P 5.88%) or T-Zone (2,4-D, 2-ethylhexyl ester 29.32% Dicamba 2.22% Sulfentrazone 0.66% Triclopyr, butoxyethyl ester 7.72%)?


----------



## Thick n Dense

How much of weed be gone tricoployr mix is really required to rake out clover? 
Suggested rate is 1 oz per 1k... seemed to have only affected the newly sprouted clover and wild violet.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

@Ohio Lawn I would get what you originally listed. The speed and t zone are hotter mixes and you may not need so many together every time you spray. With separate products, you can mix them together as needed.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Thick n Dense said:


> How much of weed be gone tricoployr mix is really required to rake out clover?
> Suggested rate is 1 oz per 1k... seemed to have only affected the newly sprouted clover and wild violet.


You might consider adding adjuvants and also spraying multiple apps a couple weeks apart. Additionally, make sure you have good spray coverage.


----------



## Dkrem

Thick n Dense said:


> How much of weed be gone tricoployr mix is really required to rake out clover?
> Suggested rate is 1 oz per 1k... seemed to have only affected the newly sprouted clover and wild violet.


Did you use any Surfactant ? The little hairs on the leaves really keep anything from sticking to it. Regular weed-b-gone will kill clover quite effectively if you add a good amount of surfactant to it.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much of weed be gone tricoployr mix is really required to rake out clover?
> Suggested rate is 1 oz per 1k... seemed to have only affected the newly sprouted clover and wild violet.
> 
> 
> 
> You might consider adding adjuvants and also spraying multiple apps a couple weeks apart. Additionally, make sure you have good spray coverage.
Click to expand...

Which AS do you use and how is it used? Is it a WDG that goes in the tank with the herbicides?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Ohio Lawn said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much of weed be gone tricoployr mix is really required to rake out clover?
> Suggested rate is 1 oz per 1k... seemed to have only affected the newly sprouted clover and wild violet.
> 
> 
> 
> You might consider adding adjuvants and also spraying multiple apps a couple weeks apart. Additionally, make sure you have good spray coverage.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Which AS do you use and how is it used? Is it a WDG that goes in the tank with the herbicides?
Click to expand...

There are many adjuvants you could use. As for AS or AMS, I use spray grade. It seems to be more pure, which doesn't matter for the lawn but can prevent clogging your sprayer if there is a small pebble or piece of clay. It is also a smaller granule so it dissolves faster in cold water. I got it here. I use 2.5oz/M.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Ohio Lawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> You might consider adding adjuvants and also spraying multiple apps a couple weeks apart. Additionally, make sure you have good spray coverage.
> 
> 
> 
> Which AS do you use and how is it used? Is it a WDG that goes in the tank with the herbicides?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There are many adjuvants you could use. As for AS or AMS, I use spray grade. It seems to be more pure, which doesn't matter for the lawn but can prevent clogging your sprayer if there is a small pebble or piece of clay. It is also a smaller granule so it dissolves faster in cold water. I got it here. I use 2.5oz/M.
Click to expand...

I used some urea and a non ionic surfactant.

Not WDG, its the weedbegone clover formula....just debating if I should buy something stronger or increase the rate. or if this is typical. I dont like wasting things.

I think ill just keep applying weekly...

Or i think quinclorac will take clover out too. Anyone mix those 2 together?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Thick n Dense said:


> I used some urea and a non ionic surfactant.
> 
> Not WDG, its the weedbegone clover formula....just debating if I should buy something stronger or increase the rate. or if this is typical. I dont like wasting things.
> 
> I think ill just keep applying weekly...
> 
> Or i think quinclorac will take clover out too. Anyone mix those 2 together?


I'm not sure that urea would provide the same effect as AMS in preventing hard water antagonization as well as reducing water PH. More info on this subject.

If you are using the weed b gon clover version, that is an amine formulation of triclopyr which is susceptible to hard water antagonization. I would add both AMS and NIS. Add 1/2 amount of water, AMS (2.5oz/1gal with a goal of 1gal/1M), mix until dissolved, triclopyr, NIS, rest of water, mix, then spray. In this specific order.

I wouldn't bother with adding quinclorac. You can if you want but triclopyr will take out clover just fine. Be sure to use the adjuvents I listed and in that order to maximize efficacy. I would consider a second application 2-3 weeks later if there is some left. It won't die immediately but it will. Also, the clover should be actively growing so don't try to control it if there is a severe drought or it's freezing outside.


----------



## Thick n Dense

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Thick n Dense said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used some urea and a non ionic surfactant.
> 
> Not WDG, its the weedbegone clover formula....just debating if I should buy something stronger or increase the rate. or if this is typical. I dont like wasting things.
> 
> I think ill just keep applying weekly...
> 
> Or i think quinclorac will take clover out too. Anyone mix those 2 together?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure that urea would provide the same effect as AMS in preventing hard water antagonization as well as reducing water PH. More info on this subject.
> 
> If you are using the weed b gon clover version, that is an amine formulation of triclopyr which is susceptible to hard water antagonization. I would add both AMS and NIS. Add 1/2 amount of water, AMS (2.5oz/1gal with a goal of 1gal/1M), mix until dissolved, triclopyr, NIS, rest of water, mix, then spray. In this specific order.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with adding quinclorac. You can if you want but triclopyr will take out clover just fine. Be sure to use the adjuvents I listed and in that order to maximize efficacy. I would consider a second application 2-3 weeks later if there is some left. It won't die immediately but it will. Also, the clover should be actively growing so don't try to control it if there is a severe drought or it's freezing outside.
Click to expand...

Interesting... ive known about this but never needed to act on it.

Wouldn't citric acid provide the same PH lowering affect?
Plus I have a bottle ready..

Quinclorac was kind of a waste for me... didn't pre em last year and had a bunch of crabgrass. Quinclorac like a charm but if you pre em, CG is taken care of.
I do however rate it more important than the WBG CCO mix.


----------



## sheepfescue

This is a great guide!

Is it safe to assume that since this thread is in cool season forum, all herbicides (except glyphosate, gluphosinate, and diquat) are safe on the four northern grasses? (KBG, PRG, FF, TTTF)?

Only ask because fluaziprop I think is the ingredient in a grass killer for gardens?

If the OP or anyone else is inclined, could it be specified which herbicides are foliar vs soil-active? For two reasons this is important for a lawn application.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

sheepfescue said:


> This is a great guide!
> 
> Is it safe to assume that since this thread is in cool season forum, all herbicides (except glyphosate, gluphosinate, and diquat) are safe on the four northern grasses? (KBG, PRG, FF, TTTF)?
> 
> Only ask because fluaziprop I think is the ingredient in a grass killer for gardens?
> 
> If the OP or anyone else is inclined, could it be specified which herbicides are foliar vs soil-active? For two reasons this is important for a lawn application.


In the first post, I listed in the descriptions the purpose for which they are generally used. Being on the cool season forum, I wouldn't use them on warm season grass without careful reading of the labels. Most aren't for warm season grass.

Fluazifop is labelled for selective weed control on cool season grass. The rate is lower for grass than for other plants. You can check out the label on one of the websites located in the quicklinks menu at the top for specific rates.

The descriptions say which ones are soil active vs foliar. Pre-emergent is soil active and should be watered in. Post-emergent (foliar) should not be watered in and should be left on the leaf tissue. There are some post-emergents with residual pre-emergent qualities but they aren't labelled for that so I didn't put it in the description.

Feel free to ask any questions about herbicides in general, this guide, or any specific products.

I welcome all suggestions to improve the first 3 posts.


----------



## social port

sheepfescue said:


> Is it safe to assume that since this thread is in cool season forum, all herbicides (except glyphosate, gluphosinate, and diquat) are safe on the four northern grasses? (KBG, PRG, FF, TTTF)?
> 
> Only ask because fluaziprop I think is the ingredient in a grass killer for gardens?


Fluazifop can be used to target certain grassy weeds such as bermuda. I would not, however, assume that it will be safe for all cool season turf. Most labels that I've read mention only TTTF and FF as tolerant of fluazifop. On the other hand, I've never read 'do NOT use this product in bluegrass/PRG lawns.' This has created some uncertainty.
The best information that I can relate on the matter is this: If temps are not high and your TTTF is not stressed, then fluazifop is relatively safe to use in TTTF. That being said, it is pretty easy to harm TTTF with fluazifop. I've had both safe and life-ending fluazifop apps.
Use of fluazifop in bluegrass is uncertain, as is its use in PRG. I have never read about anyone using it on PRG. I know of at least one person who used it on bluegrass, and no ill effects were observed. But obviously, that isn't anything to hang your hat on. I would treat the use of fluazifop on KBG/PRG as experimental and high risk.
Of course, bottle labels are the ultimate guide.


----------



## 1028mountain

Question about ortho CCO and using a 1 gallon tank sprayer. What ratio do I use?


----------



## g-man

^ the one listed in the label. It goes by ##oz per ##sqft. And that's the important part, how much product goes into an area and not how much product to mix with water.


----------



## sheepfescue

Thanks for replies.

As for my foliar vs soil-active, I meant more in terms of if root uptake is possible or if direct absorption through leaves is required. An example is granular 2,4-D in "Weed and Feed" products... if it works, it is getting absorbed through roots. But it also works sprayed on.

About NIS... is the concentration used for micellization of herbicide active high enough to desiccate and kill desired grasses?

About Tenacity... it is I think 40% ethylene glycol. I realize it is diluted in use, but does antifreeze kill grass?


----------



## g-man

@sheepfescue I think the questions are outside a herbicide guide. The guide is here to help someone navigate the options, but not to be a comprehensive analysis.

The 2, 4D mixed in with fert is in a powder form. The label in the bag says to apply to "moist lawn". Then it says to get the lawn wet from dew. The powder will stick to the wet leaves and reconstitute the herbicide for foliar absorption.

If you use NIS per the label instructions with the herbicde, it works.

Tenacity is mesotrisone. I don't know if antifreeze kills grass.

Do you have a specific weed that you need a herbicide recommendation?


----------



## 1028mountain

g-man said:


> ^ the one listed in the label. It goes by ##oz per ##sqft. And that's the important part, how much product goes into an area and not how much product to mix with water.


@g-man

I am dumb so explain to me like I am five. So lets say I have 1000sqft I would put 1 oz of CCO in one gallon water? But if I had 2000sqft I would do 2 oz of CCO in one gallon of water?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

1028mountain said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ the one listed in the label. It goes by ##oz per ##sqft. And that's the important part, how much product goes into an area and not how much product to mix with water.
> 
> 
> 
> @g-man
> 
> I am dumb so explain to me like I am five. So lets say I have 1000sqft I would put 1 oz of CCO in one gallon water? But if I had 2000sqft I would do 2 oz of CCO in one gallon of water?
Click to expand...

Personally, I would recommend this practice: Spray 1 gal/1M. In your sprayer, add 0.5 gal of water. Add your 1 fl oz of CCO. Then add enough water to make 1 gal total.

The reason being that you need to count all the other products you are mixing into your 1 gal to be sprayed. If you add 3 herbicides and some adjuvents, you'll be over 1 gal total if you rely on using 1 gal of water. The final mix should equal 1 gal.

For 1M, spray 1 fl oz of CCO in enough water to equal 1 gal of mix. Multiply that by the number of sq ft you need to spray. For 2M, mix 2 fl oz in enough water to make 2 gal total. For 5M, mix 5 fl oz of CCO in enough water to make 5 gal total. This way, every sq ft has the same amount of CCO.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

sheepfescue said:


> Thanks for replies.
> 
> As for my foliar vs soil-active, I meant more in terms of if root uptake is possible or if direct absorption through leaves is required. An example is granular 2,4-D in "Weed and Feed" products... if it works, it is getting absorbed through roots. But it also works sprayed on.
> 
> About NIS... is the concentration used for micellization of herbicide active high enough to desiccate and kill desired grasses?
> 
> About Tenacity... it is I think 40% ethylene glycol. I realize it is diluted in use, but does antifreeze kill grass?


Thanks @g-man for the info.

I would like to add a little. If it is a post-emergent, then they are all more effective if attached to the leaf tissue vs watered into the soil. While there may be root uptake, it won't be as effective or perhaps not effective at all. Herbicides with a high KOC value are highly affected by turbidity. In that case, they will be tied up by soil particles if they are allowed to reach the dirt and may not affect the plant anymore. Also, be sure to use clean water for spraying or you'll have the same problem.

If at all possible, spray your post-emergents. I don't recommend using a granular post-emergent herbicide or a hose end sprayer. Granulars are too hard to attach to leaf surfaces so you may experience reduced efficacy as well as more pollution since you may need to do repeat applications when one application is sufficient. Hose end sprayers are too easy to add an excess amount of carrier and rinse the herbicide into the soil, reducing efficacy. They also may not include adjuvents which can greatly boost herbicide efficacy. I always use adjuvents in every herbicide spray and I only use a sprayer.

Enough NIS is used to reduce surface tension of the spray mix which is mostly water. NIS itself wouldn't be in high enough concentration to damage plant tissue, that I know of. I'm not a turf PhD or do any studies so I'm not sure of the answer here. I have used maybe up to 3 times the recommended rate and the grass has been fine. I think the damage would probably be done by the herbicide from overlap, heat, or too many herbicides in too high a concentration in the spray mix. Use NIS but of course, measure it.

Antifreeze definitely does kill grass. I've seen antifreeze from a car dumped in the lawn and it's all dead. It seems to prevent any plant growth for about 6 months or so. Now, this is a 50% concentration with a gallon or more dumped in a 1 sq ft spot. As for tenacity or any other herbicide containing ethylene glycol, the rate is so low it doesn't affect the grass in any meaningful way. I've used tenacity many times and haven't seen any problems. I do measure it so it's accurate as for the quantity.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Thick n Dense said:


> Wouldn't citric acid provide the same PH lowering affect?
> Plus I have a bottle ready..


Citric acid does lower PH but it doesn't contain nitrogen which aids in foliar absorption. I'm also not sure if it forms bonds with weak acid herbicides whereas AMS does. AMS also binds with cations reducing the harmful effects of using hard water. Again, I'm not sure if citric acid does. Lowering PH is just one part of the benefit of using AMS. The lower ph helps to break down waxy coatings on plants so the herbicide can reach the leaf tissue. The AMS-herbicide compounds formed allow the plant to absorb the N from the AMS along with the herbicide and increase efficacy. Some weeds also contain higher amounts of calcium on their surface and AMS can bind with the calcium instead of the herbicide binding to the calcium to also increase efficacy. Spray grade AMS is $13 for 51 lbs. I'm pretty sure you can't get citric acid anywhere near that price. Also, you'll probably have that quantity forever considering the small amount you need for each mix.


----------



## 1028mountain

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> 1028mountain said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^ the one listed in the label. It goes by ##oz per ##sqft. And that's the important part, how much product goes into an area and not how much product to mix with water.
> 
> 
> 
> @g-man
> 
> I am dumb so explain to me like I am five. So lets say I have 1000sqft I would put 1 oz of CCO in one gallon water? But if I had 2000sqft I would do 2 oz of CCO in one gallon of water?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Personally, I would recommend this practice: Spray 1 gal/1M. In your sprayer, add 0.5 gal of water. Add your 1 fl oz of CCO. Then add enough water to make 1 gal total.
> 
> The reason being that you need to count all the other products you are mixing into your 1 gal to be sprayed. If you add 3 herbicides and some adjuvents, you'll be over 1 gal total if you rely on using 1 gal of water. The final mix should equal 1 gal.
> 
> For 1M, spray 1 fl oz of CCO in enough water to equal 1 gal of mix. Multiply that by the number of sq ft you need to spray. For 2M, mix 2 fl oz in enough water to make 2 gal total. For 5M, mix 5 fl oz of CCO in enough water to make 5 gal total. This way, every sq ft has the same amount of CCO.
Click to expand...











1M? 2M? What is M?

I get this much but am completely lost on anything after:



Code:


Add half a gallon of water to my sprayer
Add 1 fl oz of CCO to my sprayer
Then add water to equal 1 gallon total of liquid (CCO + water)

I wouldn't even know what else to add with the CCO. Is their a recommended cocktail?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

1028mountain said:


> 1M? 2M? What is M?
> 
> I get this much but am completely lost on anything after:
> 
> I wouldn't even know what else to add with the CCO. Is their a recommended cocktail?


M is the roman numeral for 1000. I would use K but in the grass world, that is potassium. Kinda stuck there so M is used instead. 5M is 5000 sq ft. 1M is 1000 sq ft. Hope that helps.

Did you get the CCO in a concentrate, ready to spray, or hose end sprayer?


----------



## 1028mountain

Ahh ok. TY

I got this:


----------



## g-man

@1028mountain

What does the label says for that bottle? How much does it says to use per sqft?


----------



## 1028mountain

@g-man

It says 1 fl oz (2 tbsp) per 1 gallon of water/200sqft. So if I wanted to spray 1M (see what I did there?) I would need to mix 5 fl oz in 1 gallon of water?


----------



## g-man

Technically 5oz/ksqft in 5 gallons of water. But 1g/ksqft instead of 5 is ok. The more water per ksqft does help since you are able to coat more of the leaf. We normally help CCO with dissolving some ammonium sulfate (if you have it).


----------



## 1028mountain

Ok so I can just do X oz of CCO in 1 gallon of water?


----------



## g-man

No. Follow the advice described in the previous post.


----------



## 1028mountain

Sure but I don't have a 5 gallon sprayer, I got a 1 gallon one.

So I think I got it, 1oz + 1 gallon to cover 1000 sqft. So if I have 5k sqft then I need to mix and spray it 5 times? How much ammonium sulfate do you include?


----------



## g-man

5oz into 1 gallon sprayed to 1000sqft. Repeat 5 times to cover 5ksqft. I use a fist full of ams into a gallon.


----------



## 1028mountain

g-man said:


> 5oz into 1 gallon sprayed to 1000sqft. Repeat 5 times to cover 5ksqft. I use a fist full of ams into a gallon.


Thanks @g-man. Do they sell ams in store anywhere?


----------



## sheepfescue

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> sheepfescue said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for replies.
> 
> As for my foliar vs soil-active, I meant more in terms of if root uptake is possible or if direct absorption through leaves is required. An example is granular 2,4-D in "Weed and Feed" products... if it works, it is getting absorbed through roots. But it also works sprayed on.
> 
> About NIS... is the concentration used for micellization of herbicide active high enough to desiccate and kill desired grasses?
> 
> About Tenacity... it is I think 40% ethylene glycol. I realize it is diluted in use, but does antifreeze kill grass?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks @g-man for the info.
> 
> I would like to add a little. If it is a post-emergent, then they are all more effective if attached to the leaf tissue vs watered into the soil. While there may be root uptake, it won't be as effective or perhaps not effective at all. Herbicides with a high KOC value are highly affected by turbidity. In that case, they will be tied up by soil particles if they are allowed to reach the dirt and may not affect the plant anymore. Also, be sure to use clean water for spraying or you'll have the same problem.
> 
> If at all possible, spray your post-emergents. I don't recommend using a granular post-emergent herbicide or a hose end sprayer. Granulars are too hard to attach to leaf surfaces so you may experience reduced efficacy as well as more pollution since you may need to do repeat applications when one application is sufficient. Hose end sprayers are too easy to add an excess amount of carrier and rinse the herbicide into the soil, reducing efficacy. They also may not include adjuvents which can greatly boost herbicide efficacy. I always use adjuvents in every herbicide spray and I only use a sprayer.
> 
> Enough NIS is used to reduce surface tension of the spray mix which is mostly water. NIS itself wouldn't be in high enough concentration to damage plant tissue, that I know of. I'm not a turf PhD or do any studies so I'm not sure of the answer here. I have used maybe up to 3 times the recommended rate and the grass has been fine. I think the damage would probably be done by the herbicide from overlap, heat, or too many herbicides in too high a concentration in the spray mix. Use NIS but of course, measure it.
> 
> Antifreeze definitely does kill grass. I've seen antifreeze from a car dumped in the lawn and it's all dead. It seems to prevent any plant growth for about 6 months or so. Now, this is a 50% concentration with a gallon or more dumped in a 1 sq ft spot. As for tenacity or any other herbicide containing ethylene glycol, the rate is so low it doesn't affect the grass in any meaningful way. I've used tenacity many times and haven't seen any problems. I do measure it so it's accurate as for the quantity.
Click to expand...

Hey man, thanks so much! That was an incredibly informative post for me. :thumbup:


----------



## Naidu

Which group is Pyrafluen in? Trying to decide between for post emergence:

https://www.domyown.com/4speed-xt-p-3879.html?sub_id=21292

and

https://www.domyown.com/q4-plus-turf-herbicide-p-1930.html


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Naidu said:


> Which group is Pyrafluen in?


14


----------



## g-man

Greendoc shared that PoaCure(ai. methiozolin) got EPA approval for is Poa annua and Poa trivialis. Right now it is golf courses only, but hopefully it makes it to athletic field, sod and residence.

https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/poa-cure-epa-registration/


----------



## SNOWBOB11

g-man said:


> Greendoc shared that PoaCure(ai. methiozolin) got EPA approval for is Poa annua and Poa trivialis. Right now it is golf courses only, but hopefully it makes it to athletic field, sod and residence.
> 
> https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/poa-cure-epa-registration/


Looks like a very interesting product. From what I read it looks to give a gradual transition to complete poa free turf. I wonder how well it works on trivialis?


----------



## Stuofsci02

g-man said:


> Greendoc shared that PoaCure(ai. methiozolin) got EPA approval for is Poa annua and Poa trivialis. Right now it is golf courses only, but hopefully it makes it to athletic field, sod and residence.
> 
> https://www.golfcourseindustry.com/article/poa-cure-epa-registration/


This looks interesting, but quite expensive. Hopefully if it makes it out for residential use the cost would come down. Still worth it if it works IMO depending on the number of applications required.


----------



## Matthew_73

Soul Stealer: Kills bermuda and zoysia grass for a renovation. Kills all other weeds and grasses too...
Triclopyr, Fluazifop, Glyphosate, (Topramezone if you have it), AMS, NIS. This has a 3 week reseed interval. Drop the Triclopyr and Fluazifop and Topramezone closer to seeding. Consider applying 2 apps of sethoxydim or clethodim prior to Soul Stealer.

I am interested in this... Anymore information


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Matthew_73 said:


> Soul Stealer: Kills bermuda and zoysia grass for a renovation. Kills all other weeds and grasses too...
> Triclopyr, Fluazifop, Glyphosate, (Topramezone if you have it), AMS, NIS. This has a 3 week reseed interval. Drop the Triclopyr and Fluazifop and Topramezone closer to seeding. Consider applying 2 apps of sethoxydim or clethodim prior to Soul Stealer.
> 
> I am interested in this... Anymore information


What would you like to know?


----------



## Matthew_73

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Soul Stealer: Kills bermuda and zoysia grass for a renovation. Kills all other weeds and grasses too...
> Triclopyr, Fluazifop, Glyphosate, (Topramezone if you have it), AMS, NIS. This has a 3 week reseed interval. Drop the Triclopyr and Fluazifop and Topramezone closer to seeding. Consider applying 2 apps of sethoxydim or clethodim prior to Soul Stealer.
> 
> I am interested in this... Anymore information
> 
> 
> 
> What would you like to know?
Click to expand...

recipe ? app instructions


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Matthew_73 said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew_73 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Soul Stealer: Kills bermuda and zoysia grass for a renovation. Kills all other weeds and grasses too...
> Triclopyr, Fluazifop, Glyphosate, (Topramezone if you have it), AMS, NIS. This has a 3 week reseed interval. Drop the Triclopyr and Fluazifop and Topramezone closer to seeding. Consider applying 2 apps of sethoxydim or clethodim prior to Soul Stealer.
> 
> I am interested in this... Anymore information
> 
> 
> 
> What would you like to know?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> recipe ? app instructions
Click to expand...

I spray it all at label rate. Mixed, it's very potent but you're trying to kill it all so that's fine. Also, some products come in varying strengths so label rates are different for each one. This will require 3 months prior to seeding. Start with clethodim and spray 2 apps, 2 weeks apart. That covers 1 month. Be sure to water if you don't have rain and put out a little quick release fertilizer. You want the plants to grow and absorb the products. Then, switch to the mix of AMS, glyphosate, triclopyr, and fluazifop. AMS, then water, mix, then the rest. I'm assuming you won't be purchasing topramezone... If you do, add that in there. Spray 3 times on 3 week intervals. After the last app, spray AMS, glyphosate, and NIS 2 weeks later. Then lastly, spray again 1 week later and seed the next day or two. The important thing will be timing it so you have 3 months before seeding. You'll also have a brown yard the whole time unfortunately but this will take care of the majority of Bermuda and any other stuff. It is usually summer when this is going on so keep the soil watered and some quick release fert to push growth.


----------



## tm1337

@Suburban Jungle Life I registered just to say THANK YOU. I'm a total newbie to DIY'ing this (I was paying a company and they were doing a piss-poor job for $$$- Natural Lawn of America). Spent hours trying to figure things out when I found your post via Google. Extremely helpful!

I decided to go with Speedzone for broadleaf control and I might get some Triclopyr later for the hardy stuff that might remain such as the Lesser Celandine (Fig Buttercup). For pre-M I got the Prodiamine. I figured the spray cost was much, much lower than granules (by orders of magnitudes), so I also got a Chapin push-sprayer. I'm currently going through the thread on the Chapin to learn how to mod it with 2 or 3 spray heads. I have about 30k sq ft to cover...

Is there anything better suited than the Speedzone for targeting as many broadleaves as possible? I got this as my go-to 3 or 4 way product, as I don't want to mix myself and trying to minimize maintenance burden. As saw Trimec as well and Q4 plus.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

tm1337 said:


> @Suburban Jungle Life I registered just to say THANK YOU. I'm a total newbie to DIY'ing this (I was paying a company and they were doing a piss-poor job for $$$- Natural Lawn of America). Spent hours trying to figure things out when I found your post via Google. Extremely helpful!
> 
> I decided to go with Speedzone for broadleaf control and I might get some Triclopyr later for the hardy stuff that might remain such as the Lesser Celandine (Fig Buttercup). For pre-M I got the Prodiamine. I figured the spray cost was much, much lower than granules (by orders of magnitudes), so I also got a Chapin push-sprayer. I'm currently going through the thread on the Chapin to learn how to mod it with 2 or 3 spray heads. I have about 30k sq ft to cover...
> 
> Is there anything better suited than the Speedzone for targeting as many broadleaves as possible? I got this as my go-to 3 or 4 way product, as I don't want to mix myself and trying to minimize maintenance burden. As saw Trimec as well and Q4 plus.


Glad it was helpful. Standard 3 way is good and you can add triclopyr to the same mix. That will take care of most broad leaf weeds and just leaves grassy weeds. I wouldn't bother addressing them upfront. Maybe later on if you want. Consider adding some AMS and surfactant to your mix. It'll really boost the efficacy. I'm assuming you're taking about cool season grass here. Different recommendations for warm season grass. Keep in mind, if you have lots of weeds, it'll be bare without enough grass. Plan to seed in the fall to help thicken it up.


----------



## 440mag

g-man said:


> I think there is one herbicide that we should add, pylex. It is very expensive right now, but once generic, it should be a game changer like tenacity was.


Hi, @g-man; just curious, has a generic for Pylex yet been introduced?

Also, @Suburban Jungle Life (and all who've contributed); it is a challenge to quantify the amount, degree and breadth of contribution this guide (like the other TLF "guides") represents.

thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!!! :thumbup: :beer:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

440mag said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think there is one herbicide that we should add, pylex. It is very expensive right now, but once generic, it should be a game changer like tenacity was.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi, @g-man; just curious, has a generic for Pylex yet been introduced?
> 
> Also, @Suburban Jungle Life (and all who've contributed); it is a challenge to quantify the amount, degree and breadth of contribution this guide (like the other TLF "guides") represents.
> 
> thank you, Thank You, THANK YOU!!! :thumbup: :beer:
Click to expand...

 :thumbup:

I'm not sure about a generic but you can buy a 4oz size for about half price.


----------



## Collywood

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> jasonfackler said:
> 
> 
> 
> When mixing herbicides from different groups for use in a blanket application, can the full labeled rate for each herbicide be applied? Specifically, I want to mix Dismiss, Sedgehammer and Tenacity to kill off nutsedge.
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I use dismiss only and at label rate, it seems to get rid of almost all the sedges. I do add adjuvants such as AMS and NIS to increase the efficacy. You could mix what you suggested if you want. Keep in mind, the more you add, it usually will stress the grass more. So, if you don't mind some browning for a bit, spray away! Not all grass reacts the same so you could try and spray a small area before going widespread to see the results. As for tenacity, I save it for early fall as I overseed annually. 2 apps of Tenacity at the high rate is the limit so I don't use it any other time.
> 
> Edit: Spraying sulfentrazone above 80-85 might brown the grass... Adding an adjuvant to it could make it worse.
Click to expand...

Been trying to find an answer to this using the search without luck, so apologies if this has been answered elsewhere. But in general, is there a limit to how much can be applied across groups in a given year? As an example, say I apply the yearly max of Glypho, then hit my annual max of Tenacity during seeding(having had applied some in the spring), then half of the annual max of prodiamine later in the fall, is all of that too much to be applied to the soil and/or grass?

I figure there's 2 layers to this question:
1) for items that reside in the soil as a Preem, can I use the bottle rates for several products or do I need to pro rate?
2) same as #1 but for post-em's that don't have a residual in the soil.

Just trying to better understand what the true max is and how the different groups interact so my yard doesn't become a toxic wasteland despite following label rates.

If I'm trying to obtain a simple answer for a very complex topic and should be reading up on herbicide groups in general elsewhere, please feel free to say so, just want to make sure I'm not overthinking first. Thx!


----------



## 440mag

Collywood said:


> If I'm trying to obtain a simple answer for a very complex topic and should be reading up on herbicide groups in general elsewhere, please feel free to say so, just want to make sure I'm not overthinking first. Thx!


I don't know enough to "say so" as your question strikes me as a good one (albeit potentially overthinking! :lol: Seriously, I live on a lake; and besides always sweating over my buffer zone, your question is one I gnaw on quite frequently. And I am living proof one can get oneself in a quagmire by going too light on pre-em's (thank heavens the resident herbicide guru pointed out to me that my going the light rates explained why out of nowhere in 2016-17 I was overrun with goosegrass I am STILL battling!)

Anyhoo, three thoughts:

1) just about every label indicates "annual" and "each app." Maximums (many even indicate soil "half life" which I find VERY useful in my annual planning)
2) I combine that knowledge with tracking my apps (as well as organizing my chem closet) not only by active ingredient but also according to MOA (mode of action) group 
3) one of the coolest ideas I've learned here at TLF is an Excel spreadsheet some use to really track running totals of chems applied and I imagine it would be easy to add a column for MOA group ...

I realize I have not answered your question (truth is, "I don't know") but, combining #'s 1 and 2 above while being as sparing and judicious as I can (and trying to read and re-read labels before each use) is how I sleep at night ....

Darn good question! :thumbup:


----------



## g-man

@Collywood this is a complex question with an answer of it depends. In short, most of us avoid max yearly levels, except maybe on PreM. Try to not reach max across similar products like prem (eg. prodiamine + dithiopyr).


----------



## Collywood

Thanks @440mag & @g-man for the helpful responses, this confirms what I was thinking but didn't want to mess around with chemicals I'm not experienced with.


----------



## LawnScrub

For people that have small tanks and can't fit a regular paint mixer into their tank, I just found out this tool that fits into my 2 gal pump sprayer. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Warner-1-3-4-in-Spiral-Mixer-for-1-5-gal-Epoxy-205322/205053024

Now I don't have to shake my sprayer like a mad man.

Measure the opening and make sure its larger then 1.75". The 1 gal chapin pump sprayer opening was too small for it to fit though. This was the smallest mixer I could find.

It's only $2.10 and 1.75 inch diameter.


----------



## isuhunter

Are you guys utilizing a syngenta branded Tenacity or a generic?

I have Aremezon from the farm - same as Pylex - are you guys utilizing much Pylex or sticking to Meso?


----------



## Lawn Noob

I used name brand Tenacity.


----------



## 440mag

Lawn Noob said:


> I used name brand Tenacity.


That's all I've ever used; however; for $46.58 /8oz bottle, I may be trying this alternative when my current inventory of Tenacity runs down: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07L3S9FKX/?coliid=I1DN778IR14FJ4&colid=2XZ4RVRPC9P0B&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it_im


----------



## Ngilbe36

If combining multiple different herbicides, in a tank mix, should the bottle prescribed amounts be reduced since other herbicides are being used in conjunction, or still use the same amounts? I dont see this discussed anywhere on here yet. For example, if I am mixing Quinclorac, a 3-way, and Mesotrione, would I use the full rates of each or slightly reduce them to not hurt the desirable turf?

Thanks!


----------



## Dkrem

Ngilbe36 said:


> If combining multiple different herbicides, in a tank mix, should the bottle prescribed amounts be reduced since other herbicides are being used in conjunction, or still use the same amounts? I dont see this discussed anywhere on here yet. For example, if I am mixing Quinclorac, a 3-way, and Mesotrione, would I use the full rates of each or slightly reduce them to not hurt the desirable turf?
> 
> Thanks!


I usually do, by experimentation. For example I use triclopyr by itself at full rate, but found if I tank mix it with a 3 or 4 way full rate will scorch my fescue, so it cut it to about 60% of full rate and get no scorching but more dead undesirables, and faster.

My default now is to cut back a bit when first trying an unknown tank mix, and to try it a gallon at a time until I sort out what works well.


----------



## SodFace

isuhunter said:


> Are you guys utilizing a syngenta branded Tenacity or a generic?
> 
> I have Aremezon from the farm - same as Pylex - are you guys utilizing much Pylex or sticking to Meso?


I use Primesource Meso 4 SC Select. Amazon link posted from another user a few posts up. It was a decent amount less than tenacity.


----------



## Stoked33

Like the rookie I am, I find the knowledge AFTER I make the mistake. However, the wealth of information on this forum has really helped me learn a lot this year. So thanks to all. I do have a question regarding herbicides, specifically herbicides and surfactants. This is may be for @Suburban Jungle Life ...

I recently applied Surge herbicide to help with some clover sprouting up. I added surfactant and spot sprayed the problematic areas. I was obsessing over temperature guidelines that I missed the important warning on adding surfactant (fool). With that mistake, I now have some yellowing of turf at the areas sprayed. I did some research and seems that these areas will be ok with normal turf care. Any idea on that? Is this just temporary damage?

Also, from a learning perspective, is there information on surfactants and herbicides? Curious on when to use a surfactant...why to use a surfactant.....why some products say yes...why some say no.... why to use one type of surfactant v another, etc. Thanks!


----------



## 1028mountain

I got some crab grass that I sprayed with quinclorac which didn't seem to do the job or it wasn't applied enough. Am I ok to respray or can I use a mix of CCO and weed b-gone? I have some creeping Charlie as well and I would really prefer to knock it all out at once. I also have crossbow but not clear if it works on crabgrass. But its hot here..90 today high 80s tomorrow.

I didn't get any pre-m down to a spring overseed so I am suffering the results of that now and wondering what my best options are.


----------



## thin_concrete

1028mountain said:


> I got some crab grass that I sprayed with quinclorac which didn't seem to do the job or it wasn't applied enough. Am I ok to respray or can I use a mix of CCO and weed b-gone? I have some creeping Charlie as well and I would really prefer to knock it all out at once. I also have crossbow but not clear if it works on crabgrass. But its hot here..90 today high 80s tomorrow.
> 
> I didn't get any pre-m down to a spring overseed so I am suffering the results of that now and wondering what my best options are.


I've had to apply Quinclorac/Drive XLR8 twice about 10-14 days apart on really stubborn crabgrass before. I think 80-90 degree temperatures may be outside the proscribed range for it to be effective, but someone else can chime in with that, but if you haven't done a second application, consider that before switching gears to something else.


----------



## thin_concrete

thin_concrete said:


> 1028mountain said:
> 
> 
> 
> I got some crab grass that I sprayed with quinclorac which didn't seem to do the job or it wasn't applied enough. Am I ok to respray or can I use a mix of CCO and weed b-gone? I have some creeping Charlie as well and I would really prefer to knock it all out at once. I also have crossbow but not clear if it works on crabgrass. But its hot here..90 today high 80s tomorrow.
> 
> I didn't get any pre-m down to a spring overseed so I am suffering the results of that now and wondering what my best options are.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had to apply Quinclorac/Drive XLR8 twice about 10-14 days apart on really stubborn crabgrass before. I think 80-90 degree temperatures may be outside the proscribed range for it to be effective, though someone else can chime in with that, but if you haven't done a second application, consider that before switching gears to something else.
Click to expand...


----------



## Thick n Dense

Is Prodiamine and Glyphosate in same app ok ?
I want the grass to live, I have Provista...

I dont see why this wouldn't work as one is foliar and the other is not.


----------



## TheZMan

How do you guys like Gordon's TZone? Seems to have what I would need for convenience??

2,4-D, 2-ethylhexyl ester 29.32% Dicamba 2.22% Sulfentrazone 0.66% Triclopyr, butoxyethyl ester 7.72%

My question is do you blanket spray with this at label rate per 1k or is it a spot spray type thing.

I made it through spring but have clover here and there that came with the sod last year.


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## 440mag

I spot spray it for great effect.

(Hope I never get to point I would ever need to broadcast it!)


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## rokoko55

The label for TZone SE Herbicide and others Ester type, including Triclopyr specifically warn not to use surfactants as it can damage the leaf tissue of turfgrass. 
Are those TZone Ester type herbicides sticking good enough to the surface of weeds without surfactants?


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## PNWLawnNewbie

Thinking ahead to next year...would I be able to apply prodiamine and a 3 way herbicide simultaneously one after the other, or should there be a waiting period? I suffer from crabgrass, dandelions, clover, and handful of others weeds.


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## wiread

Around here this year we had some broadleafs growing but if I would have sprayed a 3 way with prodiamine I would have missed many of them.

They really got going a couple weeks after soil temps were well past pre-m application temps. I think it's better to wait until everything really wakes up and starts growing for post emergent applications. I'd do them separate in the spring anyway.

Fall you can probably do both.


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## Duxwig

Herbicide newb. Neighbor gave us an oooooooold bottle of Spectracide 2x which is a 3 way of 24d, mcpa(or mpp or something) and dicamba.

I'm struggling to find any concentrates of this. Seems like most are 24D, dicamba, and nothing has the mpca. The stuff I have is working well but don't make it anymore of course.

Have some WBG CCO I've mixed in and works well. But running out of Spectracide 3 way and need more.

Wife finally ok w chemicals due to weeds attacking so did one app of those and most everything withering. A few things stunted. Need a second app.


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## Duxwig

Second question - did a Prodiamine app around end of April when it was 50s. Did it at some rate(0.2g or something sounds familiar wo google) which suggested 3 months. Any use of doing it again? I'm hoping to do some pre-germ KBG again this fall for some bare spots.


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## kb02gt

Thick n Dense said:


> Is Prodiamine and Glyphosate in same app ok ?
> I want the grass to live, I have Provista...
> 
> I dont see why this wouldn't work as one is foliar and the other is not.


Not sure that would work as prodiamine needs to be heavily watered in whereas roundup needs to stay (foliar) on the leaf.


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## PNWLawnNewbie

Newbie here looking for advice.

My lawn suffers from red thread (maybe 1 other fungus), crabgrass, dandelions and clover (maybe a few other types of broadbased weeds).

I have a new 1 gal of Weed B Gon & Crabgrass control with RTU wand. This is labeled for clover apparently even though it doesn't contain Triclopyr. I will assume it's not very effective against clover. Can I pour all 1 gal of this into a 2 gal sprayer that I have, then add in the concentrated form of Triclopyr that comes in 16 oz from Home Depot and spray my lawn? I realize the 1 gal with RTU wand is only for 400 sq ft coverage, so I'd essentially add in 2 oz of the Weed B Gon Triclopyr (because 16oz covers 3200 sqft). Is this ok to do? Or I suppose I could get the 32 oz Weed B Gon with Crabgrass concentrate (32 oz covers 5000 sq ft). But regardless, do these have to be applied separately or can they be mixed in the same sprayer and applied simultaneously?

I didn't know about ammonium sulfate and non ionic sulfactant until after I read the first post. Can I just add those into the 2gal sprayer as well if I mixed the 3-way Weed B Gon and Weed B Gon Triclopyr or do these two items have to be dissolved in water and sprayed separately? Is there a recommended amount if I am adding to the sprayer (amount per gal of either herbicide or water)? Are these reasonable: https://www.amazon.com/Southern-Ag-Surfactant-Herbicides-Non-Ionic/dp/B004XDHRCE and https://www.lowes.com/pd/Lilly-Miller-20-lb-4000-sq-ft-21-0-0-Lawn-Fertilizer/3806485

I plan to very heavily overseed during the fall and from what I read, I should use mesotrione after I overseed. For early Spring next year, I was going to apply prodiamine, which I didn't do or know about until very recently. Then continue to spot treat throughout throughout late spring/summer. Rinse and repeat again Fall next year. Anything wrong with this plan?

I also have a lot of red thread. How soon after the herbicide application can I spray Herritage G (Azoxystrobin)? Is Herritage G more or less effective than Headway G against red thread?


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## LawnOCDfanatic

Matt Martin talks about resistance in Pre Emergents and the importance of mixing and/or swapping out herbicides to avoid it, and how prodiamine etc are susceptible to it. I see no mention of it here, but I also have not seen it mentioned elsewhere either. Is it a thing or not?

also any tips to avoid tenacity bleaching if you just want to use it as a preM for 30 DAG?


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## sloanbj

Am using Gordon's Trimec and it kills the clover and dandelions but wish there was a safer alternative.


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## Factor

sloanbj said:


> Am using Gordon's Trimec and it kills the clover and dandelions but wish there was a safer alternative.


ChangeUP by Nufarm








Change Up Selective Herbicide


Change Up Selective Herbicide




www.domyown.com






https://www.domyown.com/msds/ChangeUp_PIB_15-TO-0011_C_lo.pdf



Is "safer" for Humans. If you looking for a 2 4 d alternative. More expensive though..


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