# HomerGuy's New House Lawn Establishment



## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi Guys,

We recently moved into a new construction home on a 1.2 acre lot. We were supposed to move in at the end of April, but the construction was delayed by 2 months and we just moved in at 4th of July. Needless to say, that delay put a strain on my lawn plans.

I have about 35,000 SF of dirt to seed. I have a landscaper under contract to install patio, landscape beds, irrigation, and then prep the lawn areas with a harley rake and hand rake. Now we are just waiting for him to show up. All of the contractors around here are so busy it was challenging to even get quotes from people. Right now, he is expecting to be here the week of 8/14 or 8/21 and the work is expected to take one week. This timeline is certainly later than I would have liked, but it is what it is at this point. I was hoping to have the seed down on 8/12, but it looks like it won't be till a couple weeks after that. Not ideal, I know, but I'll keep my fingers crossed.

Even getting the excavator out to grade the yard was tough with everyone being so busy. I was on a 2 month waiting list for the bulldozer to show up. But he finally made it out and did a nice job. Still lots of stones but the landscaper's harley rake and some hand raking should help with that.

Seed is a mix of Award / Bewitched / Blueberry.

With such a large area to seed, the cost of peat moss adds up fast. So in lieu of peat moss, I'm planning to very lightly rake the seed into the soil, and then roll it.

Here is my seed down plan for the day:
1. Broadcast seed at 2.5 lb per k
2. Broadcast starter fertilizer
3. Very lightly rake seed into soil.
4. Roll
5. Spray Tenacity


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## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

Did seeding go as planned?

That's a nice seed mix, where did you source it?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Redtenchu said:


> Did seeding go as planned?
> 
> That's a nice seed mix, where did you source it?


not unless he is in a time machine...it is only the 9th.


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## Redtenchu (Jan 28, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> > Did seeding go as planned?
> ...


Doesn't everyone have a Time Machine?

My mistake.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Redtenchu said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> > Redtenchu said:
> ...


it should be a requirement of lawn care so you can go back and undo mistakes.


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## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

Do you have any saw mills close to you? I just helped a friend seed his 14k back lawn. We top dressed with a light layer of sifted saw dust we bought from a saw mill. We bought like 12 yards which was double what we needed for $10 per yard. We did pick it up ourselves. It is fairly cheap and it does the job of keeping the soil moist. As the seed grows in, the sawdust melts away into the sod.

I paid a guy in 2014 to hydro seed my lawn. In April 2015 I added more lawn and used the sawdust method in replacement of peat moss. I will show you the before and after pics. I know it works if there are sawmills close by where you live. You might want to consider this option as you have a lot already invested into the process and have a large area to seed.

A few days after seed down in April 2015. Ignore the truck ruts in the picture. That is a whole different story.










Current picture in August 2017


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## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

If all else fails, know that it will germinate just by raking it in. We're just working with percentages of germination here. If you can use peat moss/something else it will germinate faster and fuller. But in the end you are doing KBG so you can always get it to spread/thicken with nitrogen later on ;-)

FWIW I seeded late last year, and while last fall and this spring it looked terrible, now it's amazing. So a late start isn't the end of the world either.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks for all of the replies! Somehow I failed to subscribe to this thread and didn't think anyone replied. I logged in to post an update and was shocked to see so many replies.

Bad news is that the seed is still bagged up in the garage and not in the soil. Good news is that the landscaper is on site and ran the harley rake over everything. Looks great! Sprinkler guy starts tomorrow. I expect to be ready to put seed down on 9/8. Its a few weeks later than I would have liked, but nothing I can do about it at this point so I am trying not to stress out over it.

I sourced the seed from SeedSuperStore. I called around to a few places, and some places had certain cultivars available but not all three. In the end, the convenience of buying from one spot won out. And when you are buying 50 lb bags, the premium at SSS isn't horrible.

I like the idea of sawdust. I do know of one sawmill in the area and will see what they might have.

Also starting to think that peat moss might not be such a huge expense. When you consider how much I have wrapped up in seed, tenacity, starter, blankets, what's another few hundred?


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Irrigation is in, and the landscaper should be finished up on Wednesday. Planning for seed down next weekend.

I purchased 125 lbs of seed (two 50 lb bags and one 25 lb bag) and need about 90 for the initial seeding. What is the easiest way to blend these thoroughly? I bought four new five gallons pails at home Depot, and was going to weigh it out with my bathroom scale. Then stir it with a paint stick. Good enough?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Sound good to me. If the bathroom scale does not give you much resolution in the lower side (ie 10lb), then use the kitchen scale. Just don't ask the wife; grab it, use it, clean it and place it back. Ask for forgiveness if caught.

A fish scale is also a good one with the pails. Use it by lifting by the handle.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

If you're afraid of being caught by your wife like I am, I bought one on Amazon for $10 and had it 2 day shipped (hooray for prime) it gives resolution down to 2 grams.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Kitchen scale ordered from Amazon! I had no idea I could get one for only $10. Only measures up to eleven pounds, but I can always do multiple batches.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Scare of the wife? It is not like mine uses the scale or the kitchen daily. :-D :lol:

I ended up buying an analog fish scale not to break the kitchen scale.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

g-man said:


> Scare of the wife? It not like mine uses the scale or the kitchen daily. :-D :lol:


Haha! I actually used to have my wife's old kitchen scale in the garage. She got tired of me borrowing the one from the kitchen so she bought a new one and gave me her old one. Well I eventually broke that one and never replaced it.

Seed is going down this weekend! Currently having a little dispute with my landscaper over the definition of "final grade/seed prep". Here is a picture of an area they still need to work on. Supposedly they will be wrapped up by Thursday.


And a seed picture just for fun.


Also have 300 lbs of Milo, 100 lbs of 15-30-15 starter, two bottles of Tenacity (I had a 10% off coupon at DoMyOwnPestControl.com), and two rolls of erosion control blankets for a small sloped area adjacent to the garage.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's soil is not close to seeding.

Your soil looks fairly dry. I like to give it a good soak days before the seed to help keep things moist.

Good luck.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

g-man said:


> Scare of the wife? It not like mine uses the scale or the kitchen daily. :-D :lol:
> 
> I ended up buying an analog fish scale not to break the kitchen scale.


  I pray your wife never finds this thread... LOL!

HomerGuy, I would definitely use this time to get some water on that ground. This is also a good time to watch your system. Learn where the water pools from extra coverage and, and how long you need to run it to prevent pooling and see how long it takes to get it damp. When i did my mini reno, i had the sprinklers setup (not in ground) a week early and fined tuned it.

Also, stock up on booze, because once that seed goes down, your gonna want some.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

g-man said:


> That's soil is not close to seeding.


I know, right?!? I mean I am certainly no professional, but come on. Thankfully there are just a few areas like that and they are supposed to get fixed today or tomorrow.

I also appreciate the tips on watering. Yes the soil is really dry right now, and that is a great idea to water it in and check sprinkler coverage.

Looks like I will be getting some help from mother nature on the water later today, and will play around with the sprinklers as well.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I just re-read your original post. I have one key advise for you to think about. Depending on how far north you in Michigan (UP?), establishing a kbg lawn in 35k sqft with seed down at 15 Sep might be risky. It might be thin going into winter. 15Sep would be the latest I would do a kbg seeding in Indy. The temperatures in the next weeks will influence your success. I think Ken & Nancy had to do a late seed down due to septic tank late last year and I think they were successful, but it was a smaller area. K&N, any comments or advice?

My advice: Think about adding some PRG into your mix or be ready to address thin areas next spring.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks g-man. Yes, I'm pushing the limit big time. I'm not totally comfortable with it, but I don't have many options at this point. When we first started with the house construction, I had big plans. I was going to have the landscaping in by July, have a month or more to fallow, and then drop seed mid-August. Of course the builder was 3 months late finishing the house, and that killed my timeframe.

I am going to cross my fingers and hope for a warm fall. I have 125 lbs of seed to cover what ended up being about 32k SF. At 2.5 lb/k that's 80 lbs dropped, leaving 45 lbs left for touch up spring seeding. And if I have to buy more, I'll reluctantly buy more. Not ideal, but at this point I have to play the hand I'm dealt.

I appreciate the reality check and suggestion of adding some PRG. I've had this dream of a 100% KBG lawn since we started construction, and I'm not ready to give it up yet, even though it will likely mean additional work down the road.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

g-man said:


> ... in Michigan (UP?), establishing a kbg lawn in 35k sqft with seed down at 15 Sep might be risky. It might be thin going into winter. 15Sep would be the latest I would do a kbg seeding in Indy. The temperatures in the next weeks will influence your success. I think Ken & Nancy had to do a late seed down due to septic tank late last year and I think they were successful, but it was a smaller area. K&N, any comments or advice?


Yes, we did a mini-renovation last year in southern NH (pretty comparable to central Michigan; I used to live in Sault Ste. Marie long ago, which is commensurate to about 100 miles north of where I live now) due to septic tank replacement.

We actually seeded two different types of seed in different areas, due to different parts of our lawn being different grasses, us not having enough Bewitched KBG to seed everything, and my concern that it was too late to seed anything other than Bewitched KBG. Many more details are available in our mini-renovation posting on a different lawn site.

Our seed-down date was 11 October 2016. For reference, our "average first frost" date is September 26. (Yes, we needed to do seed-down two weeks **after** average first frost.)

The Bewitched KBG seeded on 11 Oct 2016 barely germinated. What little did germinate never got more than 1/2" tall and didn't survive the winter.

The northern mix (PRG, KBG, FF) seeded on 11 Oct 2016 had reasonable germination. Some of the grass was about 2" tall going into winter. I don't have sufficient grass ID skills to discriminate between PRG, KBG, and FF seedlings to know if only the PRG germinated. The following spring, though, the only grass left was PRG. (Whether or not KBG and FF seedlings germinated in the late fall, if any did germinate, it didn't grow enough to make it through a NH winter.)

The preceding year, I seeded Bewitched KBG on 9 September 2015 (more details at another site). That was only 17 days before "average first frost" for us here. The Bewitched ended up getting about 1.5" tall before winter, never needing mowing before winter, but all survived to the next year. It was very slow to wake up the following spring, but by the end of June was looking pretty good.

Bottom line: if seeding PRG, it's not too late for our local climate. If seeding KBG, it's going to be dicey -- best case is that it'll just make it, but _*you better hurry*_! You are getting real close to the time when failure is unavoidable...

I'm curious as to your zip code to be able to check "average first frost" for your location. I've (barely) had success with two-weeks prior to "average first frost" with Bewitched KBG, although that was a milder-than-usual fall for us.

Personally, I think a KBG seeded after there are only two weeks remaining until "average first frost" has less than a 50% chance of making it. Two weeks after "average first frost" wasn't even close to making it for me, even with a very mild fall.

It does sound like you have plenty of seed left in reserve for next year if needed.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > ... in Michigan (UP?), establishing a kbg lawn in 35k sqft with seed down at 15 Sep might be risky. It might be thin going into winter. 15Sep would be the latest I would do a kbg seeding in Indy. The temperatures in the next weeks will influence your success. I think Ken & Nancy had to do a late seed down due to septic tank late last year and I think they were successful, but it was a smaller area. K&N, any comments or advice?
> ...


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> I appreciate the reality check and suggestion of adding some PRG. I've had this dream of a 100% KBG lawn since we started construction, and I'm not ready to give it up yet, even though it will likely mean additional work down the road.


Oh, and if you want a 100% KBG lawn, don't seed anything else into it now, or ever. It will be very hard to get the PRG out of the KBG in the future.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm in 48855. Depending on what site I use to look up the average first frost date it ranges anywhere from 9/28-10/11.

My expectations are not high. I don't expect a lush, full lawn. I'll be happy with some germination that makes it through the winter


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Using the same site I used to come up with the Sept 26 date for me, I get Oct 5 for you. http://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/index.php?q=48855&submit=Go

Getting seed down this weekend (16 Sept) would be 19 days before your average first frost date. That's far from optimal, but I had success at 17 days prior at a similar latitude, so you've got a reasonable chance to have the grass survive the winter and fill in by the end of June.

Git 'r done!


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Well boys, the deed is done....

Dropped 83 pounds of seed mixed into 300 lbs of Milo, along with tenacity and starter. It was a lot more time consuming than I anticipated. Oh and I rolled it in. Pushing/pulling a lawn roller by hand was absolutely no fun whatsoever. I wish I had a tractor for this project. A drag mat and a tow behind lawn roller would have saved me considerable time.

Now I guess the waiting game begins.

Also fixed a few sprinkler issues before dropping seed. And I'm glad I followed the advice to "learn" the new irrigation system. Found out that I need to run each zone much longer than I expected because of the high number of 360 degree heads. Those heads just take so much time to make the full rotation.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I hope you have good success with your renovation. Mother Nature has thrown me a couple of curve balls, but I've had good success with my renovation in Coastal GA.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Congrats on getting seed down! 35ksqft is a really big renovation -- especially if you rolled that all by hand. I hope you didn't have to deal with too much of a slope to push the roller uphill!

Now for the hardest part...

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this turns out for you. I've been considering renovating our front lawn next fall with a blend of Award / Bewitched / Prosperity to replace the current "northern mix" depending upon whether or not my current attempts to eliminate the _poa trivialis_ patches meet with success or not...


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, I rolled it all by hand  That was the worst part by far. Most of the yard is pretty flat so that helped. But rolling 35k SF with a 32" wide hand roller was not my best decision.

I nearly stopped hand rolling after I was 1/3 of the way through, but my wife reminded me that I felt pretty strongly about rolling it in. It was only after I realized how much work rolling was that I began to reconsider. But I preserved and finished rolling.

Looks like daytime temperatures are going to be in the low to mid 80s this week. Come on germination!


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> Well boys, the deed is done....


Congrats! Looking fwd to the green babies. :mrgreen:


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

So I've got a decent amount of seed left over. What is the best way to store it till the spring? I was thinking of putting it into clean 5 gallon buckets, sealing it with a lid, and then putting it in my basement.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

One more question regarding Tenacity.

I have 2k SF section in the back corner that I did not spray Tenacity on. At the time I was tired, sweaty, and exhausted after seeding 35k sq ft, so I just said the hell with it and did not finish the last of the Tenacity.

Now that I have had a chance to recuperate and recharge the batteries, I'm second guessing my decision. Can I spray Tenacity on an area 5 or 6 days after dropping the seed?


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Your plan for the seed sounds perfect. Cool and dry is all you need.

As for the Tenacity - I don't know. I'm in Canada where we can't have the good stuff!


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> I have 2k SF section in the back corner that I did not spray Tenacity on. At the time I was tired, sweaty, and exhausted after seeding 35k sq ft, so I just said the hell with it and did not finish the last of the Tenacity.
> 
> Now that I have had a chance to recuperate and recharge the batteries, I'm second guessing my decision. Can I spray Tenacity on an area 5 or 6 days after dropping the seed?


If the seed has started to germinate, I'd be wary about walking on it. I do think that germinating grass seed is actually much more tolerant of gentle walking over it than we give it credit for, but I still like to err on the safe side. It seems that I'm actually willing to gently walk on seedlings much more than most people here, but I do try to avoid a period of about 10 days from initial germination until the grass is about 1/2" tall. Once the grass is about 1/2" tall and green, it can tolerate gentle walking or pushing a spreader over it as long as one doesn't make any turns on the seedlings.

That said, if it's only 2ksqft out of 35ksqft that you haven't used Tenacity, I'd be inclined to leave that section untreated as an experiment to see if you experience any differences in weed pressure in that area.

I can't recall what the Tenacity label recommends for first application after germination; looking for this info on the label would be wise.

I'm hoping you start seeing some germination soon. Bewitched is quick to germinate (most see something by day 7) but really takes it's time getting through "sprout and pout."


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> If the seed has started to germinate, I'd be wary about walking on it. I do think that germinating grass seed is actually much more tolerant of gentle walking over it than we give it credit for, but I still like to err on the safe side. It seems that I'm actually willing to gently walk on seedlings much more than most people here, but I do try to avoid a period of about 10 days from initial germination until the grass is about 1/2" tall. Once the grass is about 1/2" tall and green, it can tolerate gentle walking or pushing a spreader over it as long as one doesn't make any turns on the seedlings.


I'm not sure how seedlings differ from warm season grasses vs cool season grasses but I walked on my seeds from day 1. The kids played on the lawn before, during and after germination and I didn't notice any ill effects from it. I would just make sure they weren't being too aggressive and turning up dirt but they drove the little electric tractor all over the place.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

So I'm on day 6 and the suspense is already killing me. I know its still early, but I keep second guessing myself. Should I have added some PRG to my mix? Am I watering enough? Did I prep the soil enough? Did I apply too much or too little fertilizer? Did I overdose on the Tenacity? Did that last rain wash away all of my seeds?

Ugh. Now I know why everyone jokes that you need to budget for some whiskey in your lawn renovation supplies.

My neighbors got hydroseed about 1 week before me, and theirs is looking pretty good. I'm sure it is a three way mix of PRG, FF, and KBG which is helping to get things going fast. I just need to be patient with my 100% KBG.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

This is my first year seeding kbg. I've alsways done tttf before. Its crazy how long kbg takes to germinate. For me its 7 days till I see the first signs. Both in my original seed, and in the reseed I did in bare spots. This applies to both my pots and the ground. Its so nerve racking and you begin to second guess yourslef on every step you did, lol.

Today is day 7 for this reseed pot.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

KBG is slow to germinate and slow to establish. After a year, however, when it just needs fertilizer and mowing to spread back in to damaged areas, you'll know why it's worth the wait, and why it's the cool season grass typically used for sports fields...


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

I think I might see some green fuzz in a few spots!  Hope to see a lot more in the coming days. Thankfully we have had record breaking warm weather for almost the past week (85+ degrees). I'm hoping that will help at least get things moving. Looking like the normal temps are returning later this week, with Thursdays high a more normal 67 degrees.

Got another question for the group. I have some leaves starting to drop, and in a few small couple areas they are fairly thick cover. I figure I have three options:
1. Very lightly rake the leaves, being extra careful to disturb the seedlings.
2. Take my leaf blower, and with the engine on idle, or very low throttle, try to blow the leaves away.
3. Let the leaves be for now.

Here are a couple of pics of the leaves in question.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ the light blowing option should be fine if you could walk to the area.

The 85F could be a problem if the area dries up. Make sure you are keeping the soil moist.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I did light blowing. Ran the engine on idle which is just enough to push the leaves away. Best done when leaves are dry, so work out a time right before you an irrigation cycle to go out there.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks guys. I used my blower at idle speed and was able to get most of the leaves off.

Been watering like crazy with this super hot, record breaking weather.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

When I seeded the weather turned hot and I had temps of 90+ for 2 weeks and had great germination. I was watering up to 5 times a day tho on those hottest of hot days.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Well its official.....I have germination! :clapping:

I seeded over two days, and the areas I seeded on day 1 are developing a beautiful green fuzz.

Now onto my next worry. The areas I seeded on day 2 appear to be more than one day behind.

One more day of 90 degree weather, then 76 Wednesday, and mid-60s through the weekend.

Thank god I had irrigation. There is no way I could have kept up with these record high temps without it.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Yay! Hang in there! There's always one more worry lurking after the current one...


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Hi guys. So I am at day 12. I have germination across roughly 70 % of the yard. In some spots it is pretty dense, in others kinda thin but still something. I'm happy with that so far.

However, I have a couple rather big areas (think 500+ sf each) where nothing at all is happening. I know I put seed down there. Do you think I should lightly rake and then re-seed these large bare areas? I know it is still early being only day 12, but I literally see zero germination in those spots.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You have a month left of decent weather for michigan. I would not risk it and I would throw more seeds.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks G-man. I dropped a light application (estimate 2 lb/k) of seed, and then top dressed with peat.

I did not top dress the rest of the yard due to cost, so it will be interesting to see how much the top dressing helps in these problem areas.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Here is a photo on day 15. It doesn't look nearly as nice in person as it does in the photo, but I just had to share.

You can see in the background some of the spots that I re-seeded and top dressed with peat.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Well done! That's looking like it may have a good chance of growing enough to survive the winter! If nothing else, it looks like that section should get some good sun during the day without too much shade!


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> Well done! That's looking like it may have a good chance of growing enough to survive the winter! If nothing else, it looks like that section should get some good sun during the day without too much shade!


Thanks ken-n-nancy.

I am really lucking out with warm weather this fall. No frost at all in the 10 day forecast. The next week is going to be pretty warm, with daytime highs in the 70s and dropping to about 60 at night.

Doesn't look like I will be cutting it this season, but hopefully it is established enough to make it through the winter.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> I am really lucking out with warm weather this fall. No frost at all in the 10 day forecast. The next week is going to be pretty warm, with daytime highs in the 70s and dropping to about 60 at night.


The warm weather has been kind to renovators this year, as long as folks are watering sufficiently!

Just FYI, frost isn't a problem for grass plants as long as one doesn't walk on the grass while it's frozen. The baby grass will keep growing just fine after it thaws back out as long as the soil temperatures remain warm enough so that the grass doesn't decide to go dormant for the winter. (In other words, grass is not like tomato plants and most flowers, where a single frost event will kill them off and they're done for the year.)



HomerGuy said:


> Doesn't look like I will be cutting it this season, but hopefully it is established enough to make it through the winter.


Looks like you shouldn't have any trouble -- so glad that you "went for it" and put seed down when you did!


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> HomerGuy said:
> 
> 
> > I am really lucking out with warm weather this fall. No frost at all in the 10 day forecast. The next week is going to be pretty warm, with daytime highs in the 70s and dropping to about 60 at night.
> ...


I'm pinching myself every day about the weather. Its unbelievable. If ever there was a fall to plant seed too late and it actually work out, this was it.

So I am 22-23 days post seed down. I am not seeing much vertical growth, but it does seem to be thickening. I don't think it is spreading, but I believe that the thickening I am seeing is due to the grass blades growing wider.

It appears that I am in the "sprout and pout" phase? Which means that I should not fertilize? Is that correct? Just wondering if I should be planning to drop something before winter? I have enough starter for another complete application.

If it makes any difference, the ten day forecast has highs in 60s and 70s, with lows in 40s and 50s.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

A few pics from this afternoon. It looks way better in the pics than it does in person. But everyday is an improvement.

Going to have a few areas to seed again in the spring, but relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. The bare spots that I re-seeded are germinating and coming in nicely.

Oh and Tenacity definitely works. The area that didn't get sprayed has a lot more weeds than the areas that did get sprayed.


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## aug0211 (Sep 5, 2017)

Looking great! So glad the weather has played nicely for you. Fingers crossed that it keeps up.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

aug0211 said:


> Looking great! So glad the weather has played nicely for you. Fingers crossed that it keeps up.


Thank you! I have been so fortunate with the weather.

I'm thinking of dropping a light app of Urea this weekend, which will be around 34-35 days post seed down.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Yesterday it was 56 degrees here and all of the snow melted. I came home from work and was amazed at the green color of my lawn, especially compared to my neighbors. Could this be caused by the elite cultivars I used, or is it just because the seedlings are still young?

It was cool pulling down my street, seeing all the brownish lawns, and then my green lawn. Can't wait for spring!

Oh.....and tonight we are headed to a low of 7 degrees. Gotta love Michigan.


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## MarkAguglia (Jul 13, 2017)

^ :lol: I hear you..

It was 58 yesterday, all snow melted, looked at my almost oddly green lawn vs. my neighbors for the first time in months. Today wake up to 8" of snow.

Buffalo, NY.

Really though, I'd like to know what's keeping it so green being that we've had record cold and ice and tons of snow this year.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> Yesterday it was 56 degrees here and all of the snow melted. I came home from work and was amazed at the green color of my lawn, especially compared to my neighbors. Could this be caused by the elite cultivars I used, or is it just because the seedlings are still young?


I've found that new grass (but not so new that it will die over the Winter) tends to stay green better than established grass of the same type in the Winter. But I've also found that KBG usually stays greener than Fescues and ryegrass...unless desiccation gets bad enough that everything goes brownish. Of course, I've also seen exceptions to this.

btw, it's going to hit at least 7 here, too, tonight. And there's no more snow left here, either. It's already gone to 0 or lower once this year...but there was some snow in most places.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Getting big time spring fever over here!

I know I'm still a few weeks from applying my spring pre-emergent. Planning to use grannular Barricade (prodiamine) this year. I've never had to deal with a newly seeded lawn and a spring pre-emergent before. Anything I should know?

Most of the yard germinated pretty well. A few thin areas that I'm hoping to encourage spreading. However, there are a few areas where I probably need to re-seed. These areas aren't huge and are interspersed throughout. Should I just try to avoid applying the pre-emergent in these areas?


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

The weather here finally warmed up, and just today do I feel like everything is actively growing again.

I was looking for some advice on a little weed situation that I have. Quick When I seeded in mid September, there were some areas that I did not hit with tenacity and are now showing significant weed pressure. The grass is still pretty short and I still have not made my first cut.

Here is an example of the tall weeds that seemingly sprung up overnight.


Here is my question: All of the herbicides that I have looked at say to give newly seeded areas 2-3 mows before spraying a blanket app. I'm worried the weeds are going to be enormous by then. Should I spray now, wait to mow until the grass needs it, or just start mowing my weeds to prevent them from being too unsightly?


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> When I seeded in mid September...
> 
> ...Should I spray now, wait to mow until the grass needs it, or just start mowing my weeds to prevent them from being too unsightly?


Spray now. That grass is well established below the surface. Enough to handle post-emergent herbicides at listed/proper rates.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Tough choices.

If the soil is warm, I would first hit it with nitrogen (I would use ammonium sulfate @ 0.25lb N/M). That will get everything growing (weeds and grass). I would then hand pull the big stuff. Once the lawn reacts to the nitrogen, then I would spot spray the weeds. I think a blanket app could be done, but why risk it?


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## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

^ agree with hand pulling if that's an option. I know it can be a pain but you're also talking to someone that spends hours every week hand pulling tiny poa annua plants out from under interwoven KBG. I know it's worth it in the end... 

Also agree with the nitrogen application suggestion. Your grass needs the energy! That actually doesn't look too bad overall and your grass should be able to keep establishing/spreading and start competing. Most of your perennial weed killing should be in the fall when the grass can flourish and the perennial weeds run out of energy reserves.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Thanks guys.

I did drop about .5 lb of N per K last week. I think I'm going to give it a couple more days (we just got some heavy rain yesterday) and then do a test section of a blanket app.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Just catching things up. I ended up doing a blanket spray of T-zone for broad leafs. It was a little risky, but it turned out good. There were just too many weeds to hand pull or even spot spray.

5/8 - Blanket spray of T-zone over entire yard
6/3 - Urea (~.5 Lb of N per K)
6/6 - Second blanket spray of T-zone over rear yard (which maxes out my blanket applications for the year)
6/6 - Blanket spray of Tenacity to front yard

I'm debating dropping some Milo as my last app before the summer heat. But man is it expensive on a big yard. At bag rate, it'll cost me about $150 for the whole yard. I'm debating picking up ingredients for FAS instead.

And I'll close it out with a shameless lawn lawn domination pic (if you can even call it that).


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If your objective with milo is slow release, why not just use urea or AMS at .1 or .2 N/M with your FAS. You will probably end up spraying FAS every few weeks to maintain color and you are also doing a baby feeding. i.e. slow release... You can also add in a little micro nutrient package if you want additional stuff with your FAS. Do a jar test for that first though...


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If your objective with milo is slow release, why not just use urea or AMS at .1 or .2 N/M with your FAS.


I don't have a good reason to be honest, other than I am familiar with Milo and used it successfully at my last house. Now that I have a much larger lawn, I'm quickly realizing that economics come into play. The "throw 'er down" philosophy gets expensive quickly on a big area and I am still learning to adapt to it. I never used to give much thought to cost for my last lawn, and now I am constantly calculating materials cost per thousand.

With that said, I know Rural King sells spray grade AMS cheap, so I think I'm going to take your recommendation and go the spray route.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

HomerGuy said:


> With that said, I know Rural King sells spray grade AMS cheap, so I think I'm going to take your recommendation and go the spray route.


I don't use spray grade. I use the same AMS I use for the lawn. The large granular orange brown looking stuff. I use cold water so it does take some mixing to dissolve but you can use hot water. I haven't tried the Matt Martin method; put AMS in your water and leave overnight. Supposedly without agitation, it is mostly dissolved the next day. If you are spraying iron anyway, I would think this would be the easiest route. Just up the AMS in your FAS. One and done!

As for cost savings, there is a company in my area maintaining TTTF at 1.5 lb N/M per year. It's green and thick! They do have everything else in order though. They do yearly soil tests and correct any low stuff then also use RGS, Air8, iron, micros, etc. I imagine their fert cost is quite low! I think Matt Martin is going this direction. He mentioned with less fert, there is less stress on the turf and less mowing.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

If you want to save more $, I add citric acid to my FAS. Enough to change the ph down to 4-5. It is a small amount and cheap. I also add 0.25 oz/M NIS. You get some penetrating power from the acid and some chelating action of the iron. You may be able to reduce the amount of iron in your mix and extend the effect. I get about a month from my FAS mix.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I agree with SJL, a low rate AS is a great way to go. I've been doing weekly apps trying to match grow potential. I've been using less nitrogen than other years and it is looking great.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If you want to save more $, I add citric acid to my FAS. Enough to change the ph down to 4-5. It is a small amount and cheap. I also add 0.25 oz/M NIS. You get some penetrating power from the acid and some chelating action of the iron. You may be able to reduce the amount of iron in your mix and extend the effect. I get about a month from my FAS mix.


@Suburban Jungle Life How much citric acid are you adding?

I think you guys have convinced me to go the FAS / AMS route. I just ordered some Iron Sulfate and will pick up a bag of AMS next time I am at Rural King or the grain elevator by my house.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

HomerGuy said:


> @Suburban Jungle Life How much citric acid are you adding?


Maybe a quarter teaspoon per gal? I measure with a ph meter to check to be sure I don't add too much. Doesn't take much.

I read about a mix using 0.16 oz or 6.8 g per gal. Maybe try that if you don't have a ph meter.

I bought a 2 lbs bag from amazon for about $8. I think you can get 5 lbs also for about $15. Granted, that's a lot!


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Just wanted to pop into my thread and own up to a mistake I made.

Back on 6/3 I dropped what I intended to be a light app of urea. Well bonehead me didn't tighten down the stop on the spreader setting. So after a couple times opening and closing the discharge, the setting changed. I noticed it eventually, but the damage was done. I meant to drop .5 lb N per K. Its hard to say how much I actually dropped, but I believe it was well over 1 lb N per K in the heaviest areas before I caught my mistake.

Two weeks later and it is looking better, but still some healing left to do. It got burned in a few spots.


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## Greenrebellion (Jun 13, 2018)

That sucks, looks like it will bounce back and fill in pretty quickly though.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Another update....

In my last post, I mentioned that I had some nitrogen burn from an accidental overdose of urea.

The area continued to get worse and worse, so I started to wonder if I wasn't watering enough. Being a new house, with a new irrigation system, and a newly planted turf I didn't have any historical references.

Another post on TLF got me to start wondering if I had brown patch. Maybe I've been lucky but I have rarely had any fungal issues in my previous homes so it's not something I have much experience with.

So 5 days ago I dropped grabular Scott's Disease Ex (easiest thing I could source quickly). And I have to say I think it is helping. The lawn is finally starting to look better.

Looking back, shortly after I dropped the overdose of urea, we got some very hot humid weather. I think I inadvertently created a perfect environment for brown patch.

We have again some very hot humid weather for the next week, which is unusual for our area. I'm thinking I may pick up some liguid Bayer advanced lawn fungus control and put that down as well. My understanding is that the Bayer product is a different group of fungicide, and that using more than one group is advantageous. I was also thinking the foliar application would be a good compliment to the granular app of the Scotts product.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Don't think about getting another fungicide. Order it and have it at hand. Are you treating all the 35k? If so buy online instead. You will get higher percentage of ai and cheaper per app.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

@g-man I've only treated the front yard at this point. That's were I applied the urea too heavy and where I was having the issue.

Good point on the additional fungicide. I'll pick up the Bayer product at Lowe's today, apply it to the front yard, and then start looking online at options.

Any products you would recommend? Do you want think it's wise to apply a fungicide and o the whole yard if I only see a problem in the front?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I dont think you should blanket apply. Our weather is not that bad that we need to use fungicides around the clock, in my opinion. But I think it is worth it to have the products at hand to be able to use them if something goes bad. This year I had to react to brown patch in the backyard. I'm glad I had what I needed to apply immediately. I'm in the process of checking what I have left and what I need to replace to avoid resistance.

A few of the main ones (I think we should start a thread just around Fungicides) in active ingridients:

- Azoxystrobin (used to be expensive, but now there are generic and scotts granular at a good price)
- Propiconazole (this one with Azoxy are great for brown patch)
- Myclobutanil
- Thiophanate methyl 
- Fluoxastrobin
- Chlorothalonil (no longer approved for lawn use)


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

One last thing, it is better to address cultural practices and any drainage problem. I know my backyard will improve if I could regrade my neighbors yard.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

So about 11 months ago I dropped seed on bare soil. Amazing the progress the lawn has made just since this spring. Still have a ways to go, but tonight was the first time I looked out and thought it was really looking good.

I've been dropping urea weekly since the beginning of August, and it has really started to fill in. I know I should be dropping ammonium sulfate because of my alkaline soil (ph 7.9) but the cheapest I can find is $22/bag for AS. Urea is $13.50.

I'm also going to try and spray FAS weekly for the next couple of weeks (at least on the front) and see how far I can push the dark green color. I really need to get a larger sprayer as the 4 gallon backpack just isn't feasible for recurring spray applications. A tow behind sprayer will be on my Christmas list for sure


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That looks nice. I remember you had a very late seeding last year.


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> So about 11 months ago I dropped seed on bare soil. Amazing the progress the lawn has made just since this spring. Still have a ways to go, but tonight was the first time I looked out and thought it was really looking good.
> 
> I've been dropping urea weekly since the beginning of August, and it has really started to fill in. I know I should be dropping ammonium sulfate because of my alkaline soil (ph 7.9) but the cheapest I can find is $22/bag for AS. Urea is $13.50.
> 
> I'm also going to try and spray FAS weekly for the next couple of weeks (at least on the front) and see how far I can push the dark green color. I really need to get a larger sprayer as the 4 gallon backpack just isn't feasible for recurring spray applications. A tow behind sprayer will be on my Christmas list for sure


Hi @HomerGuy , saw your post on soil pH (7.9). My neighbor is doing a lawn reno as well (just nuked and scalped) and will be applying seed via slit seeder next week. He too has alkaline soil (7.7pH), but what caught my attention on your thread is, 1)How amazing your lawn looks! Congrats!!! and 2)He has nearly the same seed as you (Midnight, Bewitched, Award) and pH as you. I see that this post was from a year ago...in summary do you think your soil pH played any factor in the development or color of your stand? From where I sit your lawn look thick green and amazing! Thanx


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

@Hyna32 I think the pH has affected the color, and not in a good way.

Without the FAS, the color is not all that great. I would almost say borderline disappointing. I am only spraying FAS on the front yard presently (need to get larger spray rig) and I see a marked difference in color between the front that receives FAS and the back which does not.

Did the high pH affect the development of the grass? I don't know as this has been my first and only experience with seeding a large area.

I have been spoon feeding urea since the beginning of August, and I feel like it has really helped the grass to thicken and fill in. As g-man mentioned, I had a very late seed down date (9/17-9/18) but thankfully we had a warm fall which really helped. I will also say that the difference in the lawn between this spring and this fall is remarkable.

I've heard several people state that it takes an elite KBG 2 growing seasons before you can fully appreciate it so I'm already looking forward to next year.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

At pH above 7.0, soil iron is not really available for the grass. Iron is what gives a lawn the green color (thru chlorophyll). FAS is a foliar application of iron so the lawn could absorb it thru the leafs. There are other more expensive options (chelated iron or Milorganite).


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## Hyna32 (Dec 1, 2017)

g-man said:


> At pH above 7.0, soil iron is not really available for the grass. Iron is what gives a lawn the green color (thru chlorophyll). FAS is a foliar application of iron so the lawn could absorb it thru the leafs. There are other more expensive options (chelated iron or Milorganite).


@HomerGuy & @g-man. Appreciate the feedback. Looks and reads like his seed (SS1100) will not only germinate, but establish and grow. He's likely a Schedule B or C owner. So your feedback and pics (thread) is reassuring. Thank you! BTW @HomerGuy it looks like your spoon feeding (N) has paid huge year 2 dividends...noted.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm going to try out this product next year: http://www.turffuel.com/nutrition/products/greens-force/minors-fuel-kelp/ I found it locally for $75 for 5 gallons, so the cost per M is reasonable.

Curious what @g-man opinion on this product is.

I'd try it this year but I still have a bunch of iron sulfate and ammonium sulfate left over.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's FAS + micros chelated with citrus.

It is similar to Feature https://www.epesthero.com/products/feature-6-0-0-water-soluble-micronutrients

FAS is still cheaper for large lawns.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Decided to do some experimentation with leveling. Dropped the HOC down to 1.5" (lowest my mower will go) in one small area in the backyard.

Tried to pick up some bags of Quickrete All Purpose sand from Home Depot but they were out. Will try another store tomorrow.

Figured I would try a test section before committing to a larger area next year.

Probably should have tried to lower the HOC a bit more gradually, but oh well. Worst case I have to reseed a small area in the spring.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You have KBG, no reseed needed. Give it water and it should recover.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Did a very small test section with sand last night. This was six 50lb bags, which volume wise is really not that much, maybe 3 cu ft total. But it was enough to satisfy my curiosity. I tried using several different tools to spread the sane. Started with backside of a 36" landscape rake, then tried a bow rake, and finally a push broom. It was really hard to keep it from getting too deep in spots.

It will be interesting to see how long this takes to recover.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I like to use a water hose with no nozzle or a jet nozzle and just dump water in the sand. It makes it flow down into the crown area and recovers really fast. It is hard to do over a large area.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Temps have certainly cooled off here. Looks like we will have a more traditional fall than we did last year.

I dropped .7 lb of N and .9 lb of K yesterday. Good possibility that will be my last application this season. We shall see.

The cooler temps and shorter days have really made some of the weeds at the back of my property stand out. These are in areas that don't get nearly as much TLC as the front yard. There are a lot more weeds than I anticipated though. I need to identify these so I can figure out a plan for the spring.



I originally thought one was quack, but it doesn't have the clasping auricle that quackgrass has so the search is still on. Man is it hard to identify these things.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

Here is my scalped test area 13 days later. It's like it never even happened. I can now proceed with a larger leveling project next year without undue concern.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> Here is my scalped test area 13 days later. It's like it never even happened. I can now proceed with a larger leveling project next year without undue concern.


Nice experiment! Thanks for sharing the results!


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

ken-n-nancy said:


> HomerGuy said:
> 
> 
> > Here is my scalped test area 13 days later. It's like it never even happened. I can now proceed with a larger leveling project next year without undue concern.
> ...


Thank you. I guess calling it an "experiment" is probably too strong of a word. More like proof of concept. I know many people on TLF have had success with cutting low and leveling with sand, but I just needed to see it with my own two eyes before I could bring myself to scalp a big portion of my beautiful lawn.

I finally noticed your reno thread Not sure how I missed it till now. Well, actually I do know why I missed it......there are just so many good threads on TLF its hard to keep up with them all. Crazy about the bears! That's a story that will be passed on for sure.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

HomerGuy said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
> 
> 
> > HomerGuy said:
> ...


Yeah, you're right; it wasn't really an experiment trying to try out a brand new technique, but was your "practice plot" to try out a (proven) technique that you've read about, but want to see if it is something that you can do successfully in your own lawn.

I think it's always a good idea to try something new out on a small area of your lawn and confirm that it works for you, just to make sure that one's understanding, abilities, specific conditions, etc., are appropriate before embarking upon the project on one's entire lawn!



HomerGuy said:


> I finally noticed your reno thread ... Crazy about the bears! That's a story that will be passed on for sure.


Having the bears in our oak tree was awesome! Hopefully they'll be back again next year for a new crop of acorns! (But not back so frequently as to become a nuisance or a danger!)


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