# Downsides of pushing N hard



## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

What can I say, I'm a sucker for the green "pop" I get shortly after fertilizing (even makes some of the grassy weeds look decent from far away) and I get a good feeling everytime I throw it down.

So I'm hoping to push a little more N next year, somewhere in the 5-6lbs range, but trying to see if there's any big downsides to doing so.

Besides the chance of burning your lawn (which I plan on mitigating by doing half rates more often) and the chance of runoff (which again I hope to mitigate by doing less fert more often and giving it time to absorb), any other big negatives of pushing too much N. Obviously when it gets hot during peak summer months I'm going to back off since I don't want to push top growth during stress times, more talking about late March to early June and late August to November timeframes when it's relatively cool here and we get plenty of rain.


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## Babaganoosh (Apr 21, 2019)

Well there's the environmental downside to applying chemicals you don't need. But that's a moral issue so that's up to you.

Maybe you could try an application of iron to get the color you want instead?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

There is always too much of a good thing. For one thing, excess levels of N can lead to fungal disease, such as powdery mildew.

There is also new research that shows late season N apps not being as effective as once thought. There is only so much nitrogen uptake the plant can handle late in the season. Adding too much N in the Fall isn't going to add any benefit. I believe Doug Soldat recommended no more than 0.25lb N as a late season app.

If it's the green pop that you like, I would suggest going to a liquid iron source - either FAS or a chelated version such as Southern AG and spray every 3 weeks or so. This will give you results in just a few days.

Aside from the constant fertilizer apps during the growing season (read: more work), you really aren't giving the grass any more benefit than sticking to 3-4lb N per season and adding iron into your arsenal.


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## desirous (Dec 15, 2017)

You'll be mowing more often.


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

Harts said:


> There is also new research that shows late season N apps not being as effective as once thought. There is only so much nitrogen uptake the plant can handle late in the season. Adding too much N in the Fall isn't going to add any benefit. I believe Doug Soldat recommended no more than 0.25lb N as a late season app.


Yeah I saw that podcast, and another reason why I was going to do smaller applications especially later on in the season and mid summer.



Harts said:


> Aside from the constant fertilizer apps during the growing season (read: more work), you really aren't giving the grass any more benefit than sticking to 3-4lb N per season and adding iron into your arsenal.


Hmm that's an interesting idea, I always thought Nitrogen provided most of the pop vs. iron. Would it makes sense to replace every other app with a plain iron one, maybe an Ironite 1-0-1? So instead of 5-6 I get ~3lbs of N and a bunch of iron in between?


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

desirous said:


> You'll be mowing more often.


Heh, that's not a problem. I love mowing, and plus that means more clippings back into the soil. The yard isn't huge either, so it's only ~20 minutes of mowing time and on a riding unit it's no biggie vs. trying to push something.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Too much nitrogen in spring depletes the root carbohydrates stored during the fall. This means that the roots will not be as strong during summer.


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## saidtheblueknight (Jul 10, 2019)

g-man said:


> Too much nitrogen in spring depletes the root carbohydrates stored during the fall. This means that the roots will not be as strong during summer.


How much is too much? My plan was to do a 0.63 in late April and then again 0.63 4 weeks later in late May. 25% of that N is slow release so less than half a lb of fast release per 1k per application.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@saidtheblueknight I would go lower for the first app (quick release) and maybe even up to 0.75 for the second but of mostly slow release...


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

I've been wondering this myself. I made a very disciplined decision of holding off on all nitrogen in July and most of August this year because I didn't want to push top growth in the heat and drought of summer but now that fall has rolled around I really have been in the mood to throw it down! I had a soil test in the spring saying I was a tad low on nitrogen back in the spring so I figured I could be a little more aggressive with it. I put down milo at bag rate at the end of August then just put some carbon x down the other day hoping to make it pop. So far nothing quite yet but we have had very dry weather the past couple of months. I went ahead and put 1/2 of irrigation down last night hopefully that gets things going. I think that nitrogen will get things going along with proper irrigation. High Nitrogen alone in dry weather might not be a good idea.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

jcs43920 said:


> I had a soil test in the spring saying I was a tad low on nitrogen


Nitrogen being gas can NOT be reliably measured for the purpose of soil needs. No fert contains nitrogen gas...so whatever the number is on the soil test, does not represent the Nitrogen sources in the soil.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

saidtheblueknight said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Too much nitrogen in spring depletes the root carbohydrates stored during the fall. This means that the roots will not be as strong during summer.
> ...


That's the hard question. I tend to do two apps around 0.5lb N/ksqft based on visual and weather. There is a evolving thought process of maintaining a clipping rate. The idea is not to starve it but also not to do crazy grow.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I like 1 lb N total in Spring, and use slow release for the most part. Problem areas might get extra if they need it. New grass definitely gets extra apps.


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## doverosx (Aug 7, 2019)

If you're anxious and want some green up, get on the micros train. Something with Iron, Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acid will condition your soil and get a good colour pop.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

The only thing I can figure about too much N is looking at what golf course seem to do. Lower rates more frequently and watch the turf response. If it responds, it's using the N. If it doesn't, you blew it and have too much or something else is wrong. The downside would kick in if you're not watching things as closely as a superintendent would and taking the right actions at the right times to prevent or resolve problems. Drought stress, heat stress, fungus, carb stores, frequent mowing, other nutrient issues, etc., etc. Lush grass all season requires a lot of work, far beyond just fert and certainly more than just N fert.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

^ Love this. We all want our lawns to look like Augusta or Fenway. The reality is, those facilities have endless staffing and financial resources. Not to mention better equipment in some cases.

There has been some great advice coming from this thread. @saidtheblueknight I'm glad you started this. I think we all, at some point, feel like we should be doing something more. It's nice to get a reminder that there is always too much of a good thing. Like the old adage goes: everything in moderation.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

doverosx said:


> If you're anxious and want some green up, get on the micros train. Something with Iron, Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acid will condition your soil and get a good colour pop.


I think we should stop perpetuating this as fact when it's most likely a myth and has little to no effect. The iron works and I can see the results without any doubt from iron.

As far as Humic/Fulvic/Kelp I think it doesn't do much of anything. I bought the stuff so I put it down every 2 weeks or so but I have my doubts.

Is Humic/fulvic/kelp better than something else I could be doing? For example, instead of spending time applying that could I do an extra mow? Or sharpen my blades one extra time? Or apply a thin layer of some peat moss, compost?


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## doverosx (Aug 7, 2019)

john5246 said:


> doverosx said:
> 
> 
> > If you're anxious and want some green up, get on the micros train. Something with Iron, Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acid will condition your soil and get a good colour pop.
> ...


Good point, I haven't seen any studies and I can only go by my own experience and JP's. In my experience, I intended to "fix the soil" with water + kelp mix. Was it the water or the kelp? I do not know but I did spend more money.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

john5246 said:


> doverosx said:
> 
> 
> > If you're anxious and want some green up, get on the micros train. Something with Iron, Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acid will condition your soil and get a good colour pop.
> ...


I believe those products DO help the soil. How much does it help? :dunno:

HOWEVER, until I see a comparative study with different plots including a control, I don't assume or believe that humic, fulvic and kelp contribute in any significant way to providing a deeper, darker colour.

You're right about iron. I spray it and 2 days later my grass is darker. I've only done two apps of extreme blend this season, but not within the last month. So I am confident I can attribute the colour difference solely to the iron.


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## MassHole (Jun 27, 2018)

Harts said:


> HOWEVER, until I see a comparative study with different plots including a control, I don't assume or believe that humic, fulvic and kelp contribute in any significant way to providing a deeper, darker colour.
> 
> You're right about iron. I spray it and 2 days later my grass is darker. I've only done two apps of extreme blend this season, but not within the last month. So I am confident I can attribute the colour difference solely to the iron.


Bingo! #bravo :thumbup:


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Harts said:


> john5246 said:
> 
> 
> > doverosx said:
> ...


Although I tend to agree and it is a no brainer why alot of products marketed with certain ingredients contain iron (instant color response=customer satisfaction), for @saidtheblueknight's sake let's try and keep this topic related to the downsides of pushing N hard and not a Humic/Fulvic/Kelp debate. :thumbsup:


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Harts @MassHole @doverosx @john5246 
I strongly recommend you to watch (I watched live on YT, so not sure the full video is on somewhere) the meetup of major YT LCN heads organized by @wardconnor. John Perry spoke long and large. While, I am not fully buying in the heap of his own line of products, the story is...authentic and you will have better idea what soil amendments do or don't for you. I, personally am always looking for a balance of quick wins/long-term investment. That being said, if an 'organic' carrier fert fits my needs (NPK and micros) I will go for it. But on the other hand, if my soil have specific needs and there is no organic way to do it, I will pick the best product for this particular situation. Depleting soil ressources (you may never experience this in a house you will own for 5 years) is a fact, by only using synthetic products.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You're right @Pete1313 :thumbup:


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