# TifGrand, Celebration, Diamond, Zorro



## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

I'm going to be putting sod in the back yard and want some input. I have Zorro Zoysia in the front yard, its OK but I'm not crazy about how hard it is to cut and its extremely thin in the shady area on the south side of the lawn. So I was going to put TifGrand in the back yard, but the landscaper that is going to do the grading, irrigation, install, etc., says that he hates TifGrand, that he's had numerous problems with it dying off. He has no experience with Diamond Zoysia, but said he really likes Celebration Bermuda. I have an indoor dog, but will play sometimes in the back yard supervised so digging holes shouldn't occur, but wouldn't damage heal faster with Bermuda than zoysia?

So my questions to the experts here:


Is it a bad idea to have Zoysia in the front and Bermuda in the back?

Will any of the grasses listed do better or worse in shade which is the lower quarter of the yard?

People here seem to love TifGrand. Is this guy a nut?

TifGrand vs Celebration

Diamond Zoysia vs any Bermuda with a German shepherd

Is Bermuda less wear on a reel mower and easier to cut than zoysia?

Which turf grass at 1/2 inch HOC feels best under the foot?

Any insight and answers to questions are greatly appreciated!

EDIT: as far as shade tolerance, we discussed the option of not sodding the shaded area of the lawn and doing some ground cover instead, so shade tolerance isn't the main deciding factor as I'm sure they all would struggle.

EDIT #2: I will consider TifTuf or any other turf grass. HOC maintained at 1/2 inch


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Are you considering Tiftuf at all?

What HOC are you planning?


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Are you considering Tiftuf at all?
> 
> What HOC are you planning?


Sure, and HOC will be 1/2 inch. I amended the post.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Zoysia is more wear and tear on the reel. Most "landscapers" in my state kill Tifgrand too. El Toro Zoysia is hard for them to kill, so they like it. I do not understand what yours does such that it dies in his hands.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Zoysia is more wear and tear on the reel. Most "landscapers" in my state kill Tifgrand too. El Toro Zoysia is hard for them to kill, so they like it. I do not understand what yours does such that it dies in his hands.


I don't know :lol:

He's not going to be caring for it, just installing it.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

I kept my reno at 3/4", and it felt absolutely wonderful underfoot in the front, as well as the common bermuda in the back yard. As a matter of fact, I spent most of the time when I was walking the yard barefoot in the front and the back yard. That's because I had no weeds/sandburs/stinging insects in the yard. If you look at the areas of my backyard where the bermuda was thick, it's the only area that survived my dogs this winter, and had the least amount of Poa Annua. It's growing back with a vengeance in the thinner areas that the dogs wore out, and were covered with Poa now that the daytime temps have hit the 80's. You're familiar with increased maintenance and wear of zoysia on reels, so it's an easy vote to go with bermuda.

Remember, after the install, it's your baby, so it sounds like the installer might have a bias of bermuda over zoysia.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

:shocked: if someone can kill Bermuda, I worry. To our Northern and Transition Zone brethren, Bermuda is a weed created by Satan. On the other hand, I think Zoysia was created by Satan to torture lawn and golf people. It is hard to mow and hard to keep flat.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Colonel K0rn said:


> I kept my reno at 3/4", and it felt absolutely wonderful underfoot in the front, as well as the common bermuda in the back yard. As a matter of fact, I spent most of the time when I was walking the yard barefoot in the front and the back yard. That's because I had no weeds/sandburs/stinging insects in the yard. If you look at the areas of my backyard where the bermuda was thick, it's the only area that survived my dogs this winter, and had the least amount of Poa Annua. It's growing back with a vengeance in the thinner areas that the dogs wore out, and were covered with Poa now that the daytime temps have hit the 80's. You're familiar with increased maintenance and wear of zoysia on reels, so it's an easy vote to go with bermuda.
> 
> Remember, after the install, it's your baby, so it sounds like the installer might have a bias of bermuda over zoysia.


:evil: When "landscapers" stick property owners with more than 5000 sq ft of lawn with Zoysia, I am really steamed. I get to talk to these people a year or so after the install. Why is it so thick? Why is it lumpy? Why does it have dead brown patches in it? That is because your "landscaper" neglected to tell you that Zoysia needs to be mowed at or below 1/2 with a reel mower kept sharp and in adjustment. If your lawn is bigger than 10,000 sq ft, you are in the market for a triplex. Common Bermuda can be maintained with a rotary mower at 11/2-2 inches with some attention to weed control and fertilization. Due to the extreme thatch production in my area, Zoysia does not get as many weeds, but it eventually crashes and burns from the thatch and diseases. Looking through this forum, I have not heard many Large Patch horror stories because in most cases it is kept "reel low".


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

I haven't had problems with Tifgrand, in part sun or full sun. everything repairs, grows slower in part sun, but Bermuda seems to have an advantage on recovery

•Is it a bad idea to have Zoysia in the front and Bermuda in the back?
w/o a natural break, you'll see the difference ...green up, texture, etc but the 'drive-by neighbor' - probably wont get a second look. if you use a fert/squirt co...they might treat them the same w/o direction

•TifGrand vs Celebration
I think the thread title "Bermuda in shade" might provide clues?

•Is Bermuda less wear on a reel mower and easier to cut than zoysia?
yep-recent equip thread. you could argue cutting freq would be higher in one vs the other

•Which turf grass at 1/2 inch HOC feels best under the foot? 
shoot density is higher in zoysia so....


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Without an 8-12" root barrier, whatever is not Zoysia becomes Zoysia. In my experience, Zoysia grows faster than the semi-dwarf TifGrand. I need to growth regulate my Zoysia lawns so the are maintainable on 7 day intervals when the sun comes back out in June. To me, Zoysia will always be prickly under foot and to sit on.


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## mrigney (Jun 6, 2017)

Have no experience with TifGrand, but did install Celebration last summer. After part of a summer with it, I really like it. But I'm probably not the expert who should be giving advice Last year I maintained with a rotary at 1.5"-2". Was as low as I could go. This year, have a McLane and right now am planning on maintaining at 11/16" or 7/8".

Here's a picture of my Celebration last summer 4 weeks after install. Remember, not mowing reel low, but maybe gives some ideas? My kids and wife thought it felt pretty good underfoot. Good enough that my kids spent a whole lot of time rolling around the backyard last summer.



Here's this season so far...
Scalped down to 5/8" (March 11)


Starting to show some signs of life (March 31)


More than welcome to make the drive up from Cullman if you want to check out Celebration in person.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

mrigney said:


> Have no experience with TifGrand, but did install Celebration last summer. After part of a summer with it, I really like it. But I'm probably not the expert who should be giving advice Last year I maintained with a rotary at 1.5"-2". Was as low as I could go. This year, have a McLane and right now am planning on maintaining at 11/16" or 7/8".
> 
> Here's a picture of my Celebration last summer 4 weeks after install. Remember, not mowing reel low, but maybe gives some ideas? My kids and wife thought it felt pretty good underfoot. Good enough that my kids spent a whole lot of time rolling around the backyard last summer.
> 
> ...


Thanks! Your yard looks great :thumbup:


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## ReelCarolina (Mar 12, 2018)

I have both a zoysia (royal) front yard and a TifGrant backyard. I do have mulch beds and a privacy fence dividing the two so no encroachment. Full sun in the front and the zoysia grows like crazy. I have small trees surrounding my backyard on adjacent properties and two rather large trees in the center of my backyard. The TifGrand seems unaffected by the shade. I still get a fair amount of light back there but the shade tolerance was a big selling point for me in regards to the TifGrand. It's a great grass in my opinion. I maintain it around .5. According to specs on TifGrand the lower the HOC the more shade tolerant it becomes so keeping it low is a must. I have a little swatch of it in my front as well between my sidewalk and mulch. I did this before the zoysia because I landscaped the area. Side by side the TifGrand is noticeably darker and more dwarf-like if that makes a difference.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

ReelCarolina said:


> I have both a zoysia (royal) front yard and a TifGrant backyard. I do have mulch beds and a privacy fence dividing the two so no encroachment. Full sun in the front and the zoysia grows like crazy. I have small trees surrounding my backyard on adjacent properties and two rather large trees in the center of my backyard. The TifGrand seems unaffected by the shade. I still get a fair amount of light back there but the shade tolerance was a big selling point for me in regards to the TifGrand. It's a great grass in my opinion. I maintain it around .5. According to specs on TifGrand the lower the HOC the more shade tolerant it becomes so keeping it low is a must. I have a little swatch of it in my front as well between my sidewalk and mulch. I did this before the zoysia because I landscaped the area. Side by side the TifGrand is noticeably darker and more dwarf-like if that makes a difference.


Thanks for the comparison!


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## Iriasj2009 (Feb 15, 2017)

gatormac2112 said:


> So my questions to the experts here:
> 
> 
> Is it a bad idea to have Zoysia in the front and Bermuda in the back?
> ...


I hear great stuff about tiftuf and that might be a great option for you. Tiftuf is aggressive, does better than other bermudas in shade and needs less input. 
Celebration is also a great choice since it is also very aggressive. However, celebration is not as soft as other Bermudas. 
I think zoysia is not a good option if you have pets. 
tifgrand might not be a good option since I hear it is not as aggressive. 
I agree with everyone else regarding your questions.

Good luck!


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

To add, Celebration cannot handle a low cut in the shade. I have seen it die out if not mowed higher in the shade.


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## mrigney (Jun 6, 2017)

@Greendoc How low is low cut in the shade? I have some in the shade in one corner of the yard. It did great at 1.5" last year (not super low). I have it down at 11/16" right now and it's coming in pretty well. Experimenting this year now that I have a reel to see how it does.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I call anything under 1" low. I do know that if I tried to take Celebration down as low as I would TifGrand, I would see a lot of thinning. TifGrand can handle a 0.4 or 0.35" cut no problems. There is a lot of cloud cover and the days are shorter here than anywhere else in the US. We are daylight challenged here. TifGrand and Celebration both perform well as long as height of cut is appropriate.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> TifGrand can handle a 0.4 or 0.35" cut no problems.


Without a doubt, the best Celebration I've ever seen was cut at .225". This doesn't mean that a homeowner should pursue this, but Celebration can tolerate a very low hoc - at the end of the day, inputs are inputs, whether it's tifgrand at .3 or C at .4, you're going to need some time and money to spare. I vote Celebration.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In sun? I know most Hybrid Bermuda will do well mowed very low. The question is, how low can you go in partially sunny areas. I can see mowing Celebration at 0.225" on a tee box in full sun. Would not try it where someone's house blocks the sun half of the day or under a tree.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I can only speak to Zeon Zoysia:
-The "barefoot grass" because it feels like carpet
-Super fine blades
-Expensive to put down
-Dog pee kills it, within hours, down to bare dirt. It has absolutely zero tolerance to pee. None.
-Said pee spots, and any other damage, takes a very long time for it to fill in

That being said I'm unaware of any other cultivars of Zoysia that come close for appearance and quality.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Zeon is beautiful. I maintain a couple of Zeon lawns. They are easier to mow than an Emerald or El Toro lawn. Fewer clippings and less thatch. However, dogs kill it, too much water kills it, and shade kills it. It dies on the sides of houses where it only gets 3-4 hours of sun a day. Out of all the grasses, it is very picky about not getting enough light. But, when it is nice, it is one of the darkest green grasses. It looks almost like fake grass. It is that perfect and uniform in color.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

You are not wrong on any of that lol


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Yeah, nothing even remotely close to .225" with partial sun. I installed 2 pallets of tifgrand about 4 years ago to deal with a sloped, shaded area that continually washed away because the 419 couldn't hang (cut at 1.75"). To this date, it's still there, holding court and looking just fine (same hoc). How are we quantifying partial sun? Has op used any sort of light meter to quantify par light? I feel like a small investment could really help steer the decision.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Tifway 419 is not usable on anything other than open lawns or fairways with no trees throwing shade. I cannot use it on home lawns in my state. It dies on the sides of properties where there is only 3-4 hours of sun. It dies under trees and it dies if the foliage plants around the lawn cast any kind of shadow. TifGrand looks great under those conditions. The only time it gets weak is when there is less than 4 hours of sun per day. Partial shade from foliage and trees thinned up do not bother it. A light meter and observation of how much light there is throughout the day is very useful.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

I have 419 that can thrive in moderate shade - assuming there's no other outside factor (cart traffic for example)..I also have tees that get 6ish hours of sunlight that don't live up to their potential (though pH and todes are to blame in some cases) It's funny because all the textbooks and research tell you that 419 cannot live at a greens hoc (.125" or lower), but overtime, we've carried enough 419 into the tifdwarf that it's set up shop and hangs in right along the tifdwarf. How is the price difference from TG to 419 for your region? I know that when we bought our TG, we had to get it brought in from Tenn. (we paid more in shipping then we paid for the sod, buy hey, science!). We eventually built our own turf nursery (2 acres) that is a constant source of valuable / hard-to-find 419.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The reason why TD is invaded by 419, is that it is very susceptible to nematodes above and beyond the 419. At a low height of cut, whatever can tolerate the nematodes survives. Almost every maintained lawn in Hawaii was TD or 328. Imagine people having a tee box as their front lawn. That changed when Diazinon went off the market. The applications for the Lawn Armyworm and Sod Webworm were also controlling the nematodes. I saw it on my own lawn. Once I could no longer get Diazinon, Emerald Zoysia took over. Big plan this year is to kill the Emerald and put in TifGrand.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

I don't have tode issues (haven't in the last 13 years). Nemacur and curfew help alleviate that. How do homeowners manage tifdwarf?!? Our TD is invaded because the aerifier is moving cores from the collar into the putting surface. Spots of 419 in the center of a 9k sq/ft green only got there one way - TD will, however, revert back to the original tifgreen genotype that it was once founded upon. Mutated TD is the devil plain and simple.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Once the Diazinon was off the market, they could not. It all died. Before that, 2-3 mowings per week with a McLane or Tru-Cut set to mow at about 0.3". TG at that height is quite nice. I maintain the only bowling green in the state of Hawaii. It has TG contaminated with Emerald Zoysia. That is set to be killed and no till renovated to Tifgrand. I am willing to try Bermuda again because I have Fluopyram(Indemnify or Exteris). I have had to do that to Zoysia japonica besieged by nematodes. The El Toro Zoysia was finally found by a pest that will kill it. TG is not the most dwarf variety of Bermuda. In my experience it is also not the most hardy either. Nematodes get it, diseases get it, and pests such as mealybug and billbug get it. It also has a problem if it is cool and/or cloudy.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Think you're mixing tifdwarf with tifgrand - I wouldn't call TG a true dwarf, it just doesn't have the internodes to support the classification. Have you tried exteris for todes? I wasn't impressed with it. Much rather use indemnify.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The Exteris worked fine for me at 6 oz/1000 sq ft watered in immediately and tank mixed with a wetting agent. It is not going to work as quickly if applied in 1-2 gallons/1000 and not watered in. I also like that there is the Trifloxystrobin to deal with the fungal issues that are co existent with the nematodes. If you have a lot of lance nematodes, Fluopyram is not going to be the stellar performer. On a golf course, multiple applications of Divanem(Abamectin) work the best. Syngenta won't register it for other turf because most applicators will not water in according to label directions. They would let it sit on the grass until it rained.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Yeah, nothing even remotely close to .225" with partial sun. I installed 2 pallets of tifgrand about 4 years ago to deal with a sloped, shaded area that continually washed away because the 419 couldn't hang (cut at 1.75"). To this date, it's still there, holding court and looking just fine (same hoc). How are we quantifying partial sun? Has op used any sort of light meter to quantify par light? I feel like a small investment could really help steer the decision.


I chose to chime in here while reading responses since you referenced me. As to the amount of sunlight and shade, thats really not whats going to decide which grass I select because the shaded area in question is up against a wooded area that lets little sunlight through. I know anything I put there will be thin. I'm just curious as to which would do best. I more than likely will not sod that area and cover the area with something else.

The dog is actually the biggest problem so any input on recovery rates, tolerance of pee (even though I'm trying to train him to go in one area) and foot traffic tolerance. Also would like a turf that feels nice under foot. Greendoc says all zoysia is prickly, yet SCGrassman says his Zeon feels like carpet. I've never had Bermuda, do they all feel the same? Some more coarse then others? Some prickly?

Anyway, I appreciate all the input by everyone, it is educational and fun :thumbup:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Most Bermuda is rather soft except for pasture or common. TifGrand is soft and fine. Over here, it has a market for natural grass athletic fields. It can maintain itself even though most days are partially cloudy. 
Out of all of the Zoysia types, Zeon is the softest, however there is the warnings about how it does not take dog pee, shade, and with how slow it normally grows, I question its traffic tolerance. I know Zeon is sold for use on golf fairways, but I consider that to be mild traffic not even equal to an active family with a dog.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

@viva_oldtrafford and @Greendoc are talking so far above my head it hurts :lol:


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Most Bermuda is rather soft except for pasture or common. TifGrand is soft and fine. Over here, it has a market for natural grass athletic fields. It can maintain itself even though most days are partially cloudy.
> Out of all of the Zoysia types, Zeon is the softest, however there is the warnings about how it does not take dog pee, shade, and with how slow it normally grows, I question its traffic tolerance. I know Zeon is sold for use on golf fairways, but I consider that to be mild traffic not even equal to an active family with a dog.


How would TifGrand be with a dog that spends 95% of the day inside, only coming outside to pee and the occasional frisbee toss? Would TifTuf be more or less wear resistant or the same? How is TifGrand with pests like the nematodes you were talking about? Is TifTuf fine bladed and soft?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Sorry. He is a golf guy. I am a high level lawn care operator. Normally, golf people and lawn people cannot talk without the conversation going over the lawn person's head.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Sorry. He is a golf guy. I am a high level lawn care operator. Normally, golf people and lawn people cannot talk without the conversation going over the lawn person's head.


Its OK, I'm a lawn dummy and I know it. I appreciate ALL the responses


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

TifGrand will do fine under the conditions you described. Football fields here are sodded with Tifgrand after the Tifway and common fails. I have no experience with TifTuf, but after talking with a sod grower that was considering producing it here, I know a few things about it. It does best under low water conditions. It is very fast growing. More water makes it grow faster, of course. On my typical irrigated lawn, that would be a lawn that would be hard to keep mowed. TifGrand tends to stay low.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> TifGrand will do fine under the conditions you described. Football fields here are sodded with Tifgrand after the Tifway and common fails. I have no experience with TifTuf, but after talking with a sod grower that was considering producing it here, I know a few things about it. It does best under low water conditions. It is very fast growing. More water makes it grow faster, of course. On my typical irrigated lawn, that would be a lawn that would be hard to keep mowed. TifGrand tends to stay low.


When we talk about growing are we also at the same time talking about recovery for pee and (hopefully never) holes dug? Because the vertical growth I'm not too worried about, its the filling in of bare spots. Meaning, is TifGrand good at filling in damage/recovery?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

It is. Like I said, football fields. Dogs not made to hold it all day long are less likely to burn the grass as well.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> It is. Like I said, football fields. Dogs not made to hold it all day long are less likely to burn the grass as well.


That's a good point, and most days he isn't made to hold it all day long. But on Wednesday and Thursday there isn't any way around it as nobody is home. There is going to be a straw area where I train him to pee hopefully.

I appreciate your expertise, you've been very helpful.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

@southernguy311 threads discuss his transformation / experiment if you will re: big dogs in the backyard on TifGrand. i've just never considered any bermuda as soft, you still feel the firmness of the ground


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

@jayhawk I had to look way back but I found the short thread you mentioned. Sounds like I could count on Bermuda to at least recover from pet damage. Since my dog isn't out there that much I should be fine, especially if I can train him to pee off grassy area.

I wonder why @southernguy311 chose Seashore Paspalum for his front yard. What are the pros and cons of paspalum @Greendoc ?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The pro and con of Seashore Paspalum is that it does well in areas too salty and sandy for most other grasses. That is the warning that it becomes a high maintenance PITA if grown on normal soil and with fresh water irrigation. There is also the issue of very few herbicides registered and legal for use in Seashore Paspalum. I also maintain a significant amount of Seashore Paspalum in Hawaii, Amateurs cannot maintain it unless they are retired. Only time it is not taken over by weeds is if it is overfertilized and therefore needing more than once a week mowing. Barring maintaining a herbicide inventory going into the thousands, it requires daily hand weeding. Bermuda is easier to take care of unless your irrigation water is salty and the soil is sand.


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## gatormac2112 (Sep 14, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The pro and con of Seashore Paspalum is that it does well in areas too salty and sandy for most other grasses. That is the warning that it becomes a high maintenance PITA if grown on normal soil and with fresh water irrigation. There is also the issue of very few herbicides registered and legal for use in Seashore Paspalum. I also maintain a significant amount of Seashore Paspalum in Hawaii, Amateurs cannot maintain it unless they are retired. Only time it is not taken over by weeds is if it is overfertilized and therefore needing more than once a week mowing. Barring maintaining a herbicide inventory going into the thousands, it requires daily hand weeding. Bermuda is easier to take care of unless your irrigation water is salty and the soil is sand.


:thumbup:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Seashore Paspalum was also sold as some kind of bulletproof super grass to everyone that lost their lawn to Take All and nematodes. False. It is susceptible to the same disease complexes. Unless it is growing on sand and exposed to salt water. Some people have tried to put salt on clay to control weeds in Seashore Paspalum. Bad idea, they then ruin soil structure and eventually make the soil so salty nothing grows. You know where the Disney Resort is on the Island. Several years ago, I had to coach the landscape company maintaining the grounds outside of the Resort. One of the issues was excessive salt aggravated by their practice of spreading salt through a spreader to try to control weeds. To this day, part of the program is a ton of gypsum per acre to keep on flushing out all of the salt in the soil.


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