# Canadian substitutes for Milo etc.



## kaptain_zero

This thread is for substitute products available in Canada due to Ringer and Milorganite not being commercially imported to Canada. I will place a hold on the second post position and use that for making the list as things are mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, Provinces and even Municipalities have gotten into the act and ban products already approved by the Federal Gov. left and right, while the same products are acceptable in the next Province or even next municipality over.

It is my hope that we can bring all the scattered items together in one, easy to find, thread.

I'm not including prices because these will likely differ depending on where you are, just based on shipping. 
Check to see what you can get locally and compare prices based on the actual nutrients in in the product.

For me, the Home Hardware large bag of 9-2-2 comes out the cheapest for Nitrogen, but locally available Turkey Trot has a good amount of P and K, so for at least Spring and Fall, it's what I'm going to use. It doesn't hurt that I need exactly one full 20KG bag to do all my lawn areas either. 2/3rds of the bag in the front, and 1/3rd for the back.

Update: After some mulling around, I have decided that perhaps a semi-synthetic is the way to go for me. The Grigg 16-4-8 from EvenSpray in Winnipeg clocks in at an even better price per lb of N than the Home Hardware stuff, but the 55lb bag is not cheap. Still, it will give me 3 full applications of 1 lb N per 1000 on my lawn. It also contains a bunch of micros and humic which I'm sure my lawn needs badly.
 :mrgreen:


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## kaptain_zero

*Organic Fertilizers (Milo and Ringer substitutes):*

Turkey Trot, (6-4-6) from Growers Fertilizers in Winnipeg. Growers does not have a Website. (Manitoba)
Home Hardware Organic Lawn Fertilizer, (9-2-2 + 2% iron) https://www.homehardware.ca/ (Country wide?)
Natura (8-2-3 + 2% iron) Home Hardware
Groundskeepers Pride, Organic Advantage (8-4-5) http://www.groundskeeperspride.com/index.php
Groundskeepers Pride, Naturally Green Lawn Fertilizer (10-3-3) with micro-nutrients.
Biofert Lawn Food 8-2-3 + 3% iron. http://www.biofert.ca/ (British Columbia)
Organic lawn builder & plant food http://suncountryfarms.com/fertilizer/ (Saskatchewan)
Actisol Organics (Quebec)
5-3-2 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/multipurpose-organic-fertilizer-pure-hen-manure-5-3-2/#onglets-produit
7-3-2 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/lawn-fertilizer-step-12-spring-summer-7-3-2/
4-3-9 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/lawn-fertilizer-step-3-fall-4-3-9iron/

Sustane 5-2-10 (2% Chealated Iron) Organic granular from: http://www.mountainviewturf.com/
Sustane 8-2-4 from Dam Seeds: http://www.damseeds.ca/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3229

Brett Young carry some organic fertilizers listed in the Greens Grade West category with one based on Biosolids like Milorganite and another based on Soybean meal and Alfalfa. Scroll to the bottom of the Greens Grade West heading to find links to the pdfs for each of the ferts at the following link:

http://tinyurl.com/y8bvwb6g

If you are near Kelowna BC, you can buy OgoGrow (made from biosolids): https://www.kelowna.ca/city-services/garbage-recycling-yard-waste/okanagan-compost/ogogrow

*Semi Organic*
Grigg 16-4-8 Turf Rally Micro Grade (all 3 are available from Even-Spray Winnipeg, http://www.evenspray.com/)
Grigg 10-2-4 100% Organic Micro Grade (not in stock)
10-2-3 (semi-organic)

*Canadian Mail Order Sites:*

https://lawnproducts.ca/

http://www.gardenerspantry.ca/

https://ttseeds.com (T&T carries more stuff than you can find online or in the catalog. I do not know what their shipping policies are as I can just drive over to them and pick up what I need).

*Canadian Friendly US mail order sites:*

https://www.kelp4less.com/

https://www.seedworldusa.com/

*Soil Testing:*

Some Ontario sites: http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/resource/soillabs.htm

In Winnipeg, after several phone calls, I ended up with a single "in Winnipeg" soil test lab. 
Farmers Edge 1357 Dugald Rd. 204-233-4099

Brett Young also appears to offer soil testing services through some labs:

http://www.brettyoung.ca/professional-turf-and-reclamation/fertilizer/soil-testing

Major Turf suppliers (Golf Courses etc.):

This is an interesting idea, commercial products for the home lawn. http://www.evenspray.com 
Even-Spray is at 2-851 Lagimodiere and staff is friendly, even if they can't sell me the pro chems.
I got a chance to visit today, some products are available to me, others are not due to government policies. All in all, a worthwhile visit. Their semi organic ferts look expensive, but when priced per application (based on N content), come out fairly cost effective. 55LB bag of 16-4-8 will do 3 full 1lb N apps to my yard at a cost of $24.20 each. My until now standby, Turkey Trot, is $44 per application. The semi-organic product does need to be watered in to ensure a quick response and getting the prill down to the soil.

I suggest download the PDF catalog as the website itself is lacking*.

Links to posts in other threads (These have useful information on bringing Milorganite and such across the border):*

Bringing Milorganite across the border yourself https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=74607#p74607

*Seed suppliers*

https://qualityseeds.ca/turf

*Equipment:*

Groundskeepers II rake, available via Amazon and Rittenhouse, but I found it at Lee Valley in stock for purchase:

http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=59435&cat=2,2160,40698

This is a Lawn Forum thread on this rake: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3207&p=75726#p75726

Lee Valley also carries the original Garden Weasel, should you be looking for one.
http://www.leevalley.com/en/garden/page.aspx?p=64731&cat=2,42578,40769


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## Harts

Home Hardware Natural Fert 9-2-2 + 2% iron


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## Harts

Home Hardware Natural Fert 9-2-2 + 2% iron


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## Harts

Sorry @kaptain_zero I should have read your post in its entirety! My bad.


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## kaptain_zero

Harts said:


> Sorry @kaptain_zero I should have read your post in its entirety! My bad.


No worries, I updated it to include the iron!


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## nathan_s

Sun Country Organics Fertilizer from Saskatchewan
http://suncountryfarms.com/fertilizer/


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## tony972333

I like Acti-Sol organic fertilizers (these are made in the province of Quebec). Those products does give nice results. The manure is heated to destroy pathogens and is formed into fertilizer pellets.

5-3-2 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/multipurpose-organic-fertilizer-pure-hen-manure-5-3-2/#onglets-produit
7-3-2 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/lawn-fertilizer-step-12-spring-summer-7-3-2/
4-3-9 https://acti-sol.ca/en/engrais/lawn-fertilizer-step-3-fall-4-3-9iron/


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## kaptain_zero

Keep'em coming guys, the more the better.

And if you see any typos or other errors, let me know. I'm blind in one eye and I can't seem to hear a darn thing with the other one either. :mrgreen:


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## jurkewycmi

https://www.homehardware.ca/en/7kg-8-2-3-all-season-lawn-fertilizer/p/5024154



Found at my local HH, was on sale at the time for $16


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## kaptain_zero

Thanks @jurkewycmi, added to the list.

I made a spot for soil testing as well.


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## Schaef

Some Ontario soil testing Labs
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/resource/soillabs.htm


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## kaptain_zero

@Schaef Added, thanks!


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## 2xjtn

8-2-14 HumaPlus from Turf Health Products (THP)
Greens grade prill.
http://turfhealthproducts.com/products/granulars/organic-green-8-2-14


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## llO0DQLE

Cool thread! I think something else that needs to be mentioned is that it may be cheaper to just use grains (i.e. Soy Bean Meal) as an organic fertilizer and then apply iron as a separate app, i.e. foliar spray. I've recently learned that Canola Meal is high in protein and is something that is produced a lot here in AB and SK and is also used as a carrier for plane de-icers. It could also probably be used as a carrier for micronutrients. I haven't tried it yet but I'm planning to as soon as I can drive to my nearest UFA.


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## kaptain_zero

Second post has been updated.

@llO0DQLE That is a cool idea, but it leaves a person wondering just how much of what nutrient has been added to the lawn through the application, as these products are not analyzed for content.


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## llO0DQLE

SBM is 7-2-1 or 7-1-2 but it doesn't matter much as it's organic and is not processed by the soil and plant the same way synthetics are. In any case the standard app rate is 20lbs/K and you can do it at least monthly, more frequent if your soil biology can process it quick enough.


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## kaptain_zero

llO0DQLE said:


> SBM is 7-2-1 or 7-1-2 but it doesn't matter much as it's organic and is not processed by the soil and plant the same way synthetics are. In any case the standard app rate is 20lbs/K and you can do it at least monthly, more frequent if your soil biology can process it quick enough.


Can you give me a link to the source and the full name? I'll add it to the list.


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## llO0DQLE

Soy Bean Meal. Check out farm/feed store. I get it from UFA here.


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## tony972333

Thanks for the soybean meal idea, I want to try it as a fertilizer. I made a quick research and apparently soybean meal has allelopathy properties, it inhibit germination of weeds seeds (according to this source in French: https://www.agrireseau.net/agriculturebiologique/documents/Engrais%20naturels_Martin.pdf). Also, some of the nutrients are released slowly in 1 to 4 months. It's unfortunate that Homestead Organics have closed this spring because they distributed this product (http://www.homesteadorganics.ca/ClientData/file/fertility/fertility_en/Soybean%20meal.pdf) but I will do some more research to find where there is a simillar product.


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## g-man

I've never heard of soy meal being a pre emergent for weeds. I've heard of gluten de maïs being one, but studies have proven that wrong (https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/corn-gluten.pdf).

Comparaison de coûts (cost analysis), I'm interested in what could you by with 8-3-2 at $1.23/kg ($0.55/lb).


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## PROBOUND

Hey guys i found a good Milo Alternative from a local Sod farm that supplies greens grade fertilizer to all of the golf courses in the Ottawa/Gatineau area. They also have a 5-2-4 variant but they havn't had stock of it for quite some time. He mentions the golf courses prefer this blend for all of their putting greens.










*Sustane 5-2-10* (2% Chealated Iron) Organic granular.

http://www.sustane.com/products/turfgrass/sustane-5-2-10-fe

It can be purchased from a Sod farm about 30min drive from downtown Ottawa called Mountainview Turf

http://www.mountainviewturf.com/


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## scottyhoz

Great thread.

Sustane 8-2-4 from Dam Seeds (http://www.damseeds.ca/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=3229)


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## Shindoman

2xjtn said:


> 8-2-14 HumaPlus from Turf Health Products (THP)
> Greens grade prill.
> http://turfhealthproducts.com/products/granulars/organic-green-8-2-14


I get all my fert from Dave Duncan at Turf Health Products. The lawn has never looked better.


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## kaptain_zero

Updated post 2 tonight. Holler if I missed something or got something wrong.


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## PROBOUND

kaptain_zero said:


> Updated post 2 tonight. Holler if I missed something or got something wrong.


You could probably mention that Biofert Lawn Food 8-2-3 has *3% iron*. To my knowledge that's the highest fe content in Canada atm.


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## kaptain_zero

Tnx, updates have been made.


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## jurkewycmi

I think I've found another good source for elite seeds. Located in Vaughan ON.

https://qualityseeds.ca/turf

Any of you GTA guys dealt with them before


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## kaptain_zero

Added the Seed supplier heading.

I just discovered I have a SiteOne just a few minutes away from where I live! I'll have to go back and ask again, but they told me all the seed they sell is blended by a Canadian Seed Supplier and it *might* have been qualityseeds... but I can't say for sure.


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## bmelz

My local Site One uses Speare Seeds (http://www.speareseeds.ca/) for supply and sell their own "custom" blends/mixes. I have contacted Speare Seeds directly, they offered a custom blend (or mono) of Midnight, Brooklawn2010, and Milargo. 2lbs bags all the way up to 50lbs.

http://www.brettyoung.ca/ is another seed company that does sell elite varieties. They are geared more toward commercial, so 50lbs minimum is required. Last year I was quoted at roughly $400 (delivered) for a 50lbs bag of Bewitched.


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## Harts

@bmelz which location are you near? I was at the one in Burlington about two weeks ago and didn't realize they carry seeds. When I spoke to the guy he just talked to me about Fiesta herbicide and their fert. He didn't mention seeds (and I didn't think to ask).


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## bmelz

I am near Windsor, Ontario. I was in there to pick up some irrigation parts and noticed the bags they had up at the storefront.


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## jurkewycmi

For those in the Ottawa area, Ritchie Seed and Feed carries these products

http://www.turf-sharkfertilizer.com/100-percent-organic-fertilizers

Also had another organic 5-3-2 66% OM fertilizer but the picture file corrupted. Will try to update later


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## PROBOUND

jurkewycmi said:


> For those in the Ottawa area, Ritchie Seed and Feed carries these products
> 
> http://www.turf-sharkfertilizer.com/100-percent-organic-fertilizers
> 
> Also had another organic 5-3-2 66% OM fertilizer but the picture file corrupted. Will try to update later


Any info on how much iron content the 5-3-2 has?


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## jurkewycmi

PROBOUND said:


> jurkewycmi said:
> 
> 
> 
> For those in the Ottawa area, Ritchie Seed and Feed carries these products
> 
> http://www.turf-sharkfertilizer.com/100-percent-organic-fertilizers
> 
> Also had another organic 5-3-2 66% OM fertilizer but the picture file corrupted. Will try to update later
> 
> 
> 
> Any info on how much iron content the 5-3-2 has?
Click to expand...

None  checked the label over a few times and no iron listed


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## Dom2123

Hi
Does anyone had try the SUSTANE fertilizer?
And what are yor results, and what was the price per bag?
I have found a golf course supplier In southern Quebec who is willing to sell to homeowner.


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## Dmega

Any places to buy milo or ringer like ferts or soybean/corn/alfafa gluten meal in Mississauga..?

Thanx


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## Dom2123

Today i called at O.J Compagnies in Sherrington Québec about the Sustane fertilizer they are selling to Golf Courses.
They also sell their products to homeowner and offer shipping to eastern Canada.
They sell the 50 lbs bag of 5-2-4 Sustane SOP + 2 Iron, at 44$
https://ojcompagnie.com/sites/default/files/fichiers/5-2-4%20Sustane%20Micro%20%285-2-4-F22%29%20Can%20E%20Rev1701.pdf

Next week, i'm going to buy them 2 bags for a try and hope it will give me some good results.
https://ojcompagnie.com/en


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## Harts

@Dmega finally someone else from Mississauga!

You can try the TSC store in Milton. I have exhausted search options in the area.

I'm currently using the 9-2-2 from Home Hardware. Once I'm done this bag I'm going to order some stuff from Brett Young that's probably the closest to Milo.


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## Dmega

Harts said:


> @Dmega finally someone else from Mississauga!
> 
> You can try the TSC store in Milton. I have exhausted search options in the area.
> 
> I'm currently using the 9-2-2 from Home Hardware. Once I'm done this bag I'm going to order some stuff from Brett Young that's probably the closest to Milo.


Hi Harts. Thanks for the info. Looks like tsc sells corn gluten meal 44 lbs bag for $40 reg on sale now for $35.

I had a look at the brett young page. They also offer a soybean fertilizer. Have you ever considered veggie fert vs bio solid like Milo vs ringer?


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## SNOWBOB11

Dmega said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Dmega finally someone else from Mississauga!
> 
> You can try the TSC store in Milton. I have exhausted search options in the area.
> 
> I'm currently using the 9-2-2 from Home Hardware. Once I'm done this bag I'm going to order some stuff from Brett Young that's probably the closest to Milo.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Harts. Thanks for the info. Looks like tsc sells corn gluten meal 44 lbs bag for $40 reg on sale now for $35.
> 
> I had a look at the brett young page. They also offer a soybean fertilizer. Have you ever considered veggie fert vs bio solid like Milo vs ringer?
Click to expand...

I just purchased a bag of there soybean fertilizer and will probably use it next week. I've also bought cracked corn and alfalfa pellets from TSC this year. I'd recommend picking up cracked corn instead of corn gluten meal. Cracked corn is like $12 for a 50lb bag. Much cheaper than corn gluten.


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## Dmega

@SNOWBOB11
Cool. I was going to call brett young today and ask about the soybean fert. I'm really interested in a ringer type product. Ive tried milo and it works. Wife didnt like the smell.
Btw way is it the tru-pill fert soybean/alfalfa what was the cost and size of bag?


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## scottyhoz

I am using a Brett Young 7-2-5 soy fertilizer now. It's a ringer like product and so far so good, just applied it for the first time a few weeks ago.


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## Dmega

scottyhoz said:


> I am using a Brett Young 7-2-5 soy fertilizer now. It's a ringer like product and so far so good, just applied it for the first time a few weeks ago.


Hi scottyhoz. I tried to find more info about size of the bag...application settings and cost. Could you maybe elaborate. Good to hear its working for you.

Thnx


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## scottyhoz

Dmega said:


> scottyhoz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am using a Brett Young 7-2-5 soy fertilizer now. It's a ringer like product and so far so good, just applied it for the first time a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi scottyhoz. I tried to find more info about size of the bag...application settings and cost. Could you maybe elaborate. Good to hear its working for you.
> 
> Thnx
Click to expand...

Nature's Time 7-2-5 Greens Grade from Tru-Prill. It's a 50# bag and cost me just under $50. Bag rate is 7.2lbs/1000 and watered in. Here is the spec sheet link - http://www.brettyoung.ca/sites/default/files/atoms/files/7-2-5.pdf


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## scottyhoz

Dmega said:


> scottyhoz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am using a Brett Young 7-2-5 soy fertilizer now. It's a ringer like product and so far so good, just applied it for the first time a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi scottyhoz. I tried to find more info about size of the bag...application settings and cost. Could you maybe elaborate. Good to hear its working for you.
> 
> Thnx
Click to expand...

Nature's Time 7-2-5 Greens Grade from Tru-Prill. It's a 50# bag and cost me just under $50. Bag rate is 7.2lbs/1000 (½ lb of N) and watered in. Here is the spec sheet link - http://www.brettyoung.ca/sites/default/files/atoms/files/7-2-5.pdf


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## SNOWBOB11

scottyhoz said:


> Dmega said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> scottyhoz said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am using a Brett Young 7-2-5 soy fertilizer now. It's a ringer like product and so far so good, just applied it for the first time a few weeks ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi scottyhoz. I tried to find more info about size of the bag...application settings and cost. Could you maybe elaborate. Good to hear its working for you.
> 
> Thnx
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Nature's Time 7-2-5 Greens Grade from Tru-Prill. It's a 50# bag and cost me just under $50. Bag rate is 7.2lbs/1000 and watered in. Here is the spec sheet link - http://www.brettyoung.ca/sites/default/files/atoms/files/7-2-5.pdf
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the one I got as well. Again the cost is high but I wanted to use soybean meal so decided to give it a try. The alfalfa I just saw as a added benefit.


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## Dmega

I just put an order in...its expensive but beats ordering ringer, driving to the homedepot in niagara falls ny, dealing with customs, paying duty and driving back home. Not to mention my family would want to make a day out if it and spend way more money on food and shopping. Its worth a try. At 7.2# per thousand I could get 4 applications which aint too bad.


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## kaptain_zero

I try to base a fertilizer price on lbs of N in a bag, not how much a bag costs. The least expensive "bag" of organic fertilizer I can buy locally is Turkey Trot 6-4-6 in a 44lb bag, which means the bag contains (44lb x .06= 2.64lb N) and if I want to put down 1lb of N per 1000 square feet it works out to ($44 : 2.64 = $16.66 per 1000 square feet).

Home Hardware's Organic Fertilizer bag weighs 55lbs and costs $70, so on the surface it appears more expensive. Doing the calculation shows that I get 4.95lb N in a bag. A 1lb N application per 1000 square feet will cost $11.76 per 1000 square feet of lawn or in other words, $4.90 less per 1000 sq. feet than the above Turkey Trot. On my rather small lot, this works out to $14.70 less per application, so the higher cost of the bag, if I have the money, is ultimately a cost savings to me.

It pays to figure out what you want to put down of a given macro nutrient and select the fertilizer that gives you the best cost performance for YOUR particular needs. Some object to the smell of sludge based organics and have to select a non-sludge based fertilizer, even if that raises the cost. For others, $$$ cost alone drives the decision and they end up selecting a synthetic fertilizer that is more cost effective but does not have all the organic matter and micro nutrients an organic fertilizer may have.

One thing I noted in the 7-2-5 fertilizer from Brett Young is that of the 7% N is 5.5% water soluble which to me indicates it's better used for spoon feeding and will likely require watering in, rather than other types that are low water soluble and stretch the time it takes to break down. Then again, maybe I'm reading the sheet wrong..... I've been wrong before! 

And that reminds me that the Home Hardware Fertilizer uses chicken feathers as part of it's N source. I recall reading somewhere (I have no idea where, or if it's really true) that chicken feathers as an N source is very slow to break down and may not have the quick impact someone might be expecting. The moral is that it pays to read read read and read some more..... OR..... just pile on the Milorganite?!?!

Lastly is about the COST of a bag in different regions. Please remember, if someone close to the production location of a fertilizer only pays X per bag, it is reasonable to expect someone half ways across to country to pay Y for the same bag. Not because the contents are more expensive, but rather simply the cost of shipping it across the country! Price out the cost of shipping a 50lb parcel and you'll see how quickly costs spiral out of control if shipping only a few bags. That's why I didn't want to put prices in the second post, it's just too variable.


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## Harts

Very well said.


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## Dmega

@kaptain_zero
I think you are right about watering the fert in...im 100% clear in the instructions but once I throw her down i have to water it.
If i dont do this will it burn?
From a price per application pov it works out to 12 or so dollars. Bonus... The brett young rep is delivering it to my door.


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## Harts

@Dmega can you PM me the contact at Brett Young?

Where abouts in Miss are you?


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## kaptain_zero

@Dmega I don't know if it would "burn", but I would water it in if it was me.

If you paid $50 for a 50 lb bag of 7-2-5, it works out to $14.29 per lb of N (I ignore any suggested application rates on the bags as they are "suggestions" and nothing more). In my sunny front yard I can go 1 lb N per 1000 sq. feet. In my shady back yard, I keep it to 0.5 lb N per 1000 sq. feet as the grass does not get enough sun to use 1 lb of N.

As for the Brett Young supply chain. The reason why you might be able to buy 1 or two bags of a fertilizer from a rep at the same price as the other side of the country is because they will get a pallet or pallets of product shipped by truck each week. The pallets are loaded in the warehouse and what goes on the pallet is decided by the order put in by the rep. The pallets are loaded on the truck in order of delivery, so when the truck reaches Winnipeg, on it's way to Regina and Calgary, it drops the pallet(s) destined for Winnipeg off at a terminal in said town. The rep simply unpacks the pallet, loads his pickup or whatever it is he uses in order of delivery and then drives that route, dropping off what has been ordered. He might have a couple of bags for residential customer and 50 bags for a nearby golf course, meaning for little extra work, he picks up his commission on those 2 extra bags. This is very similar to grocery chains, who only have a few large warehouses across the country, but they distribute their goods in their own trucks weekly based on computer orders from each store.

In contrast, a place like OneSite or EvenSpray might bring in a pallet of product, but when it's gone, it's gone, until next year. It's not cost effective for them to bring in just a few of this or that and they don't have the local storage space to keep extra stock. They will likely have a country wide warehouse too, but they have so many different products that they can only stock so many and the rest are brought in at the beginning of the season directly from the manufacturer and they base next years orders on how well something sold.


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## Dmega

@kaptain_zero 
14 dollars per app is good in my books. In my situation where the rep will deliver it to me is super conveinent vs driving out to the country and sourceing a product that may or may not be there. That said who knows if this product will "always" be available or if I will even like it? I will post some befor and after pictures when I apply the fert.
You are pretty knowedgeable...what would happen if I didn't water the fert in?


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## scottyhoz

kaptain_zero said:


> One thing I noted in the 7-2-5 fertilizer from Brett Young is that of the 7% N is 5.5% water soluble which to me indicates it's better used for spoon feeding and will likely require watering in, rather than other types that are low water soluble and stretch the time it takes to break down. Then again, maybe I'm reading the sheet wrong..... I've been wrong before!


The spec sheet is incorrect. The product is actually 5.5 % Water Insoluble.


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## Dmega

scottyhoz said:


> kaptain_zero said:
> 
> 
> 
> One thing I noted in the 7-2-5 fertilizer from Brett Young is that of the 7% N is 5.5% water soluble which to me indicates it's better used for spoon feeding and will likely require watering in, rather than other types that are low water soluble and stretch the time it takes to break down. Then again, maybe I'm reading the sheet wrong..... I've been wrong before!
> 
> 
> 
> The spec sheet is incorrect. The product is actually 5.5 % Water Insoluble.
Click to expand...

It's directions are also wrong maybe:

DIRECTIONS FOR USE
Apply *Tru-prill® 10-2-20* any time when the turf needs a fertilizer.<--- The wrong product
Watering in is recommended to assist in working the product into the turf. Apply .50 inches (20 minutes) prior to mowing.
When applying to finely mowed turf, mow for one day without buckets on dry turf. <--- this part makes no sense to me
Allow 5-7 days before seeing a visual response from the application.
Use a clean dry spreader. Do not leave unused product in a spreader for an extended period of time.


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## kaptain_zero

@Dmega

First off, in response to your earlier post where you said that $14 was OK for an application, I just wanted to make sure you understood what I meant. My calculation is for 1 lb of Nitrogen to be spread on 1000 sq. feet which costs $14.29. In your details on the right side of your posts, it shows your lawn to be 1700 sq. feet, so that means it would cost you $24.29 to do one application of 1 lb N per 1000 sq. feet on your entire yard.

As for me being schmart, nope.... I just like to dig into things until I understand them and then I get bored and go on to something else. I am a "jack of all trades, master of none" type of guy who knows just enough to get into deep trouble! :mrgreen:

5.5% NON water soluble makes more sense for an organic based fertilizer, pity they don't proof read their PDFs. And yes, I did note the mention of the wrong product in that PDF as you point out above.

As for the part that makes no sense to you:



> When applying to finely mowed turf, mow for one day without buckets on dry turf. <--- this part makes no sense to me


Finely mowed turf would mean areas such as "greens" on a golf course, closely mowed (sub 1 inch) with a reel mower. After spreading an organic fertilizer on such an area, they suggest not using "buckets", a term they might use for the grass catcher on a reel mower, to avoid some of the fertilizer being removed from the turf before it has had a chance to get to the soil, if it's dry and the product has not been watered in well. This is not a problem with rotary mowers and 3 to 4 inch high turf, but if the turf is more like 1/2" high and it's dry...... :roll:

As for watering in or not, 5.5% non soluble would seem to indicate it's not a "hot" fertilizer and you can likely get away with not watering it in, but if the instructions on the package say you should do so.... I would. Once you burn a lawn.... it's going to take time and work to fix it.... I'd rather be safe than sorry. They might also recommend watering to activate the fertilizer. Some prills or pellets are compressed and will expand and disintegrate into smaller particles once wet, which can then be more effectively broken down by soil bacteria and the like.

And lastly, getting a proper soil test done is important. Without that test, you have no idea what you really should be using for a fertilizer. Farmers who live and die by what's in the soil know that, and they only apply what a soil test indicates and nothing else, as that is the most economical, and also the most effective thing to do.


----------



## Dmega

Firstly, great words of advice and explanations sir.

When the instructions state to water in to work the product into the soil I took at as the granules when applied to the lawn may stay at the top of the grass and by watering it in will drag the particles to the soil layer. If this fert is similar to the ringer lawn restorer which is also a soybean gluten type fert I have seen this happen to it.

As far as the amount to throw down I agree with the calculations. I have gone by the suggested amount in the bag for a long time. But to do it right I need a soil test and go from there.

On the subject of soil test which can get expensive is there in your opinion a cost effective test which gives consistently accurate results when compared to a certified ministry test? It is something I have looked into and most review of the test bought at canadiantire etc are poor. I would like to test at least 6 different spots around my lawn.


----------



## jurkewycmi

I checked local labs in Ottawa and the best price I found was $65.
edit: sorry I re read your post, and you're talking over the counter stuff. Same page, I would love to know if the Lee Valley or Amazon products have been compared with any lab tests.


----------



## Dmega

I'm going to call Guelph University monday and find out how much it will cost for a soil test.


----------



## kaptain_zero

@Dmega 6 separate soil tests on a 1700 square foot lawn seems a bit excessive to me?!?!

I have 3000+ and plan to test the front lawn and the back lawn separately. I will take samples from all over the front lawn and mix them together. I will do the same for the back lawn. Testing 6 separate areas would entail treating each one as it's own and possible requiring different treatments, which might mean 6 different fertilizers!

I would only do one test normally (mixing all the soil samples from the front and the back together), but my back lawn was landscaped last year and plenty of soil was brought in, so it's likely different from the heritage lawn I have in the front that was established over 50 years ago and likely neglected ever since!

Unless your situation is "odd" like mine, I'd just take samples from all over the front and back, let them dry out and mix them all together before testing. This way, you can treat the entire area the same way and not "micro manage" each area. After a year or two, you can test again and see how things are going. If all you need is N and lime, all the other stuff you might buy is wasted, so the test lets you spend your money wisely and the cost isn't much more than 1 bag of Fertilizer that you might not even need, but would have normally bought. Of course, you *might* need that fert, but without testing, you just don't know.

I realize you may have problem spots (we all seem to have them), but they may resolve themselves in a couple of years after establishing what the entire lawn needs. If you still have one or two spots that don't cooperate after a couple of years of taking good care of the lawn, it may be time to investigate those areas closer (and I'm assuming it's not an irrigation or insect issue, which would need to be fixed NOW! A soil test would not be helpful in those cases).


----------



## Dmega

@kaptain_zero 
You are right it is a lot. Which is why I am looking for a cost effective way of doing this.

In the end if the cost is too much I will have to test one or two spots.

Ideally I would like a detailed analysis of every part of the yard even if I'm going to treat every area the same way.


----------



## Harts

Be careful with using U of G. @Sinclair can shed more light, but they can test for products in your soil that are banned in Ontario. So if you have applied any soil amendments etc, those might show up.

Logan's labs in the US can do it for fairly cheap. There are members north of the border here who have used them.

Getting separate tests for each part of your yard isn't necessary. You're going to take 15 or so samples from different parts of your front yard for example and mix them together. That will give you an overall sampling of your soil. Do the same in the backyard and that should suffice.


----------



## Dmega

@Harts 
I called UofG today and got the info. $45 no tax on that for the lawn and garden test. Interestingly they don't show you how much Nitrogen you have in the lawn but they do say how much you should be putting in etc. It also does not show the iron either. To add Nitrogen its another $18.55 but probably not necessary if they tell you how much you need. Iron test also includes zinc and copper for another $17.50. I would have to collect the samples and mail or drive them in plus 15 days to process.

I also spoke to my Brett Young contact today as he delivered the organic fertilizer. They charge $75 plus tax I assume. He comes out and takes to core samples, sends it to the lab they use. I briefly saw the sample report and they don't show how much Nitrogen is in the soil either but they do say how deficient. it is. It also includes all the micro nutrients. In addition to showing the nutrients they show how much nutrients are actually available to be used in the soil. I've requested a copy of the sample report to go through it further. The U of G is fine but the brett young is more visually appealing with charts in addition to the info provided.

In case people were wondering how much the 5-1-2 "Milo" alternative was going for it's cheaper than the ringer alternative at around $35 dollars. My contact also said they carried or use to a granular iron product and will let me know if he can still get it.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Brett young uses logan labs to send there soil tests to. Don't go through the extra expense of having brett young send in your soil, send it to logan labs yourself.

Most standard tests don't test for N as nitrogen doesn't stay in the soil the same way P and K does. Your always going to have to add N so no need to test for it.


----------



## Harts

^ +1

@Dmega I purchased this  Soil Sample Probe  from MK Rittenhouse in St. Catharines. They have a lot of what can't be found at big box stores including about 90% of the parts needed for the DFW wand. I plan to build one of these as a winter project. Thread is  here  when you have the time and want an interesting read. Lots of information to go through and digest but very informative.

I haven't actually gotten around to doing my test yet but the probe makes taking your samples very quick and easy.


----------



## Shadow4478

Is there anything in Canada that can substitute milorganite, seeing that it's not sold here. Currently I use a product called magic carpet.

After a lot of readin research I would like to use something more organic.

Any recommendations ?


----------



## Budstl

Here ya go

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4025


----------



## pennstater2005

@Shadow4478 Merged this here to keep the recommendations/discussion all in one place.

Welcome to TLF!


----------



## Shadow4478

This forum is crazy (awesome)
So many replies in about an hour
Wow I have some reading to do


----------



## Harts

@Shadow4478 welcome to TLF. I have been using Natural Fert 9-2-2 from Home Hardware. Next year I will be switching to a product from Brett Young (I just placed the order for two bags this week). This is a biosolid product, comparable to Milo.

The best advice I can give you is STOP researching! Most of the answers to your questions will be on this forum. We have a couple of Canadian threads going, including this one. Grab a pint and get reading. There is a ton of info on here!

Again, welcome and do not hesitate to ask any questions.


----------



## Shadow4478

@@Harts thanks for the reply, how is the home hardware stuff compared to Brett Young?

What's the cost per per beg shipped or cost per lbs for Brett young? (I can figure out the the rate of nitrogen @ .75

Above all what is the ordering process, do you just call them up or web order ?

Home hardware organic 9-2-2
25kg/55.12lbs
Cost :$66.99 (1.21 per pound) 
Nitrogen @ .75:
8.4lbs per 1000sq feet
$10.20 per 1000 sq feet

Or is it better to apply the organic stuff more frequent at a lower rate ie. 0.5


----------



## Harts

I haven't used the Brett Young yet. I've been happy with the home Hardware fert.

It's $35 a bag (50lbs). The rep in our area is Everett. I'll pm you his number and email later tonight. He takes your order then someone from the regional office will call to take payment. Once Everett gets it, he'll deliver it to you. Takes about a week to come in from out west.

I simplify my approach with lawn care. I don't calculate cost per 1000 sf. I just look at cost per bag and how many bags I need to cover my area.

As for applications, next year I'm going to do two lbs organic. One just before May 24 long weekend and another lb prior to Canada day. Starting in August 2019 I'll switch to urea and do weekly apps of 0.25 lbs N. The plan is to get 8 apps in (2 lbs N total). Then a final lb N later in October. That will give me 5 lbs for the season.


----------



## Shadow4478

What would be the main reason for switching 
Is it primarily cost? 
Also any major difference between the 2 products HH vs B.Y quality vise ?


----------



## Harts

To be honest I get bored easily. The HH stuff has been fine. Smells awful and spreads easily.

I really wanted to find something that was more similar to Milo and @SNOWBOB11 found this stuff at BY.

I also have 2,500 sf, so one bag of the BY will cover one full app for me which means I don't have to do any math.

The BY is a biosolid whereas the HH stuff uses more conventional organic material.

The iron content is 5% (BY) vs 2% (HH). So I'll get a boost in iron which is a plus.

To use your math above at 0.75lbs N:

50lb Bag
Cost: $35 ($0.70/lb)
Nitrogen at 0.75:
15lbs/K
$10.50/K

Check your messages


----------



## Shadow4478

HH is out of the product, Warehouse Currently is at zero


----------



## kaptain_zero

Yup, things are winding down in Kanuckistan. :-(

It's been so dry here (I can't afford the water for the front lawn, so it's back lawn only) that the water shutoff cap that was below my lawns surface this spring is now about 3 inches ABOVE the lawn! I had to flag it for when I mow so I don't hit it with my new Toro! By the end of Sept. it'll be time to think about winterizing the mower and getting the snowblower ready. We usually get our first snow on the ground at Halloween and frost much sooner. This Brett Young biosolids based Fert looks interesting, I'll probably order some next year.


----------



## Harts

I had to go to 3 different stores to find peat yesterday.

The Brett Young Biosolids should be coming in this week. Although I won't be using it until next year.

You will want to start using synthetic now anyway.


----------



## kaptain_zero

Walmart was flogging their peat a couple of weeks ago, and it was gone in a matter of hours. I managed to get some from CTC. As for fertilizers, I just put down some synthetic starter fertilizer and lucked out with at least 1/4" of rain tonight... likely more. I have a part bag of 33-0-11 I think and some Scott that is similar that will get used later, as long as it doesn't get too cold too quick. I'd be interested in hearing of a "sniff" test on that BY stuff.


----------



## Dmega

@Harts



Harts said:


> ^ +1
> 
> @Dmega I purchased this  Soil Sample Probe  from MK Rittenhouse in St. Catharines. They have a lot of what can't be found at big box stores including about 90% of the parts needed for the DFW wand. I plan to build one of these as a winter project. Thread is  here  when you have the time and want an interesting read. Lots of information to go through and digest but very informative.
> 
> I haven't actually gotten around to doing my test yet but the probe makes taking your samples very quick and easy.


I've made an appointment with Everett to do the soil test. I will post the results when I get them back probably end of September. Brett young uses another company for soil test called A&L Canada Laboratories which is different than then one stated on the website.

I also picked up 20 litres of the GTx6% iron and ordered the chapin battery backpack sprayer.

My september is going to be busy with the lawn.


----------



## Harts

@kaptain_zero hahaha. I'm thinking I might have to.


----------



## Sinclair

Shadow4478 said:


> HH is out of the product, Warehouse Currently is at zero


Oh great, we did up here what they did with Milo down south. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## cfinden

kaptain_zero said:


> Walmart was flogging their peat a couple of weeks ago, and it was gone in a matter of hours. I managed to get some from CTC. As for fertilizers, I just put down some synthetic starter fertilizer and lucked out with at least 1/4" of rain tonight... likely more. I have a part bag of 33-0-11 I think and some Scott that is similar that will get used later, as long as it doesn't get too cold too quick. I'd be interested in hearing of a "sniff" test on that BY stuff.


@kaptain_zero 
I put down the BY Milo yesterday, and the smell is absolutely terrible. Is normal Milo this bad? My whole yard stinks, the dog stinks like it now. I feel like I can't even get the smell out of my nose. The smell is still lingering in my car from when I picked the bags up.

I don't know if I'm gonna be able to use it again... Might stick with Soybean Meal and Alfalfa, those smell great!


----------



## Harts

@Sinclair yeah but it's kinda your fault for mentioning the product to begin with!

@cfinden did you get the Biosolid (5-1-2)?


----------



## cfinden

@Harts yup. $34 for a 50lb bag. I bought 3 bags. It stinks real bad.


----------



## Harts

That's the stuff!

I've never used Milo but understand it smells pretty bad too but usually dissipates within a day or two.

I'd like to know your thoughts on what you think in about a week. Other than the smell of course!


----------



## kaptain_zero

Well, with that "smell" report, I'm back to considering the Grigg "Turf Rally" product. It appears expensive on the surface as it's around $70 for a 50 lb bag, but when I do the calculations, it will give me three full applications of 1lb N on my lawn.

Specs can be found here: http://grigg.co/greenspec-granular/grigg-turf-rally/


----------



## Dmega

I have used milo and still have a quarter bag left. To my wife it smells bad. To me I will qoute the LCN...it smells ike domination. Lol it does not bother me but it does linger for a week or so on the yard.

The smell from the soy/alfalfa fert still in bag is better tho.


----------



## cfinden

@Dmega haha honestly I was super excited about it, even the smell, I was thinking about all the LCN jokes, like the bag he keeps in his garage to puff out the "blueberry smell".

I just didn't think it would be that bad, and I had a couple too many craft beers on Saturday, so waking up on Sunday to that smell was just too much. 

I love the Alfafa pellet smell the day after app.

@kaptain_zero that stuff looks great, 3% iron too!


----------



## Harts

We're Canadian. We don't get hangovers :lol:


----------



## kaptain_zero

Harts said:


> We're Canadian. We don't get hangovers :lol:


Uhhh.... you forgot to add Milorganite and Ringer to that statement! :mrgreen:


----------



## Harts

Got my BY Milo today. Rep was super helpful and told me he can get me anything in their catalogue except liquid. Anybody here have there pesticide license! Haha

As for the smell.....well it smells. You don't need to open the bag. Its been sitting in my garage for about two hours and the garage has a distinct aroma now! It's strong but I don't find it offensive.

Its going to have to go in the shed otherwise my wife will snap, since I park her car in the garage at night.


----------



## Dmega

@Harts 
Hey harts do you mind if I come over. I would like to compare the BY Milo to the little real Milo i have left over.

I just put down my BY soy/alfafa ringer alternative. It looks different to the real deal. i can post a picture later but it has a really nice smell.


----------



## llO0DQLE

Please post pics for the comparison.


----------



## Harts

I won't be opening these until next year. Sorry guys.


----------



## llO0DQLE

It doesn't go bad if you open it you know? Lol


----------



## Shadow4478

They are both bio solids the BY and the Milo 
Should be similar...... might be BETTER ..... 
but I don't see the states getting Jealous


----------



## cfinden

@Harts 1 week after my BY Milo app and the existing grass is growing like crazy. I also overseeded on the same day I applied Milo, and there's a ton of sprouts now.

I'm concerned that the existing grass will shade the sprouts.. but it's a shade mix, it'll be fine right! :lol:

I put down Scott's starter fert that I bought from our local Walmart for $2. All the outdoor products are getting blown out!


----------



## Harts

During an over seed it is best to wait a week or two after seed down before throwing down the fert. That gives the new seedlings time to germinate.

I did the same thing as you with the starter. You will still get some new grass growth.

It's all a learning process. Make sure you keep some detailed notes so you can reference back if you over seed again in the future.


----------



## Harts

The BY is a greens grade. So a smaller prill size. I'm not sure what size the Milo is but I suspect it is a larger size granule.

The BY Rep told me the spreader will probably be on a lower setting because the prill is so small.


----------



## jurkewycmi

Any of you Winnipeg guys feel like going reel low?

Toro Greens Mower,
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-lawnmower-leaf-blower/winnipeg/toro-greens-mower/1381232166?utm_source=com.google.android.apps.docs&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=socialbuttons&utm_content=app_android

Price: $ 300


----------



## llO0DQLE

I wonder how feasible it would be to go reel low with our cold winters and frost heaves and shorter growing seasons. Maybe folks in BC and Southern ON can do it quite well but I'm concerned that one may have to do frequent top dressings every season after each winter.


----------



## kaptain_zero

There are at least 1000 golf greens in Manitoba, so it's quite possible. I do see that the courses in Winnipeg put their greens to bed with tarps over them, so perhaps it might not be very practical for a large lawn.


----------



## llO0DQLE

But a home lawn is different soil profile vs a golf green built from the ground up to be a golf green. But maybe it's doable. I wasn't sure, just wondering.


----------



## Harts

I believe it can be done. There are lots of folks in northern states that go reel low. Connor is in Utah and I'm sure his winters can be just as harsh. I know you guys out west get brutal winters. But I don't think it would be impossible to do.


----------



## Shadow4478

@Harts 
Thanks, just placed the order for 3 bags of BY milo
Also HH is still out of their product


----------



## Harts

@Shadow4478 nice! Did you place the order with Everett?

I can't wait to get it down next year.


----------



## Shadow4478

@Harts yes I did they where very prompt to put In The order.
Should show up soon


----------



## cfinden

Where do you guys get Prodiamine?

Seedworldusa?

It seems super expensive:
https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/resolute-4-fl-herbicide

Anyone know of cheaper/easier to get sources?


----------



## Grasshopper

Cfinden.. I believe this is what you should consider

https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/prodiamine-65wdg-herbicide-guardrail-barricade-crabgrass-control-5-lbs

A tad cheaper.... :thumbup:


----------



## LarryFunkster

How bout these guys for our side of the border. Beats going through customs and duty. Not sure where you'd up $$$ compared.

http://www.seedranch.ca/Prodiamine-65-WDG-5-Lbs-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5-lbs.htm


----------



## Grasshopper

Larry that site is made by seedworldusa to appear as a Canadian company.

Not sure how the prices compare if you purchase through there compared to seedworldusa.com.


----------



## Harts

Same company. When you get your order from seed world, the bill of lading says Seed Ranch.


----------



## Grasshopper

Any Canadian sources of FAS?


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Grasshopper said:


> Any Canadian sources of FAS?


Amazon for the ferrous sulfate, ebay for the ammonium sulfate. That's where I get them from and probably your cheapest option.


----------



## jurkewycmi

https://www.amazon.ca/Ammonium-Sulfate-NH4-2SO4-Pound/dp/B007ODPGB4/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1536825405&sr=8-1&keywords=ammonium+sulfate

https://www.amazon.ca/Ferrous-Sulfate-Heptahydrate-FeSO47H2O-Soluble/dp/B007ODUNJ4/ref=pd_sbs_86_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B007ODUNJ4&pd_rd_r=e3b903db-b72b-11e8-bcdb-932140fb8169&pd_rd_w=hYqFO&pd_rd_wg=gT95P&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&pf_rd_p=d4c8ffae-b082-4374-b96d-0608daba52bb&pf_rd_r=RP4PRF0AXEKVZ3J24MVM&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=RP4PRF0AXEKVZ3J24MVM

are these the right products?


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Yes those are what you want. Keep in mind that is only a 1lb bag of as. It seems like the ebay price I paid for a 25lb bag has gone up so I'd probably buy it from here now. http://m.plantproducts.com/ca/index.php


----------



## Grasshopper

That site looks great snow, cheers!


----------



## cfinden

Thanks for the Prodiamine ideas guys.

Who else is planning on using Pre-M next spring? And what kind?


----------



## LarryFunkster

Have you purchased from Plant Products before SNOWBOB11?

Larry



SNOWBOB11 said:


> Yes those are what you want. Keep in mind that is only a 1lb bag of as. It seems like the ebay price I paid for a 25lb bag has gone up so I'd probably buy it from here now. http://m.plantproducts.com/ca/index.php


----------



## LarryFunkster

Gotcha Grasshopper. Thanks for pointing that out! 



Grasshopper said:


> Larry that site is made by seedworldusa to appear as a Canadian company.
> 
> Not sure how the prices compare if you purchase through there compared to seedworldusa.com.


----------



## cfinden

That plantproducts.com website looks awesome @SNOWBOB11

I just sent them an email requesting pricing on this list:

42245 QualiPro T-Nex 11.3 ME
3694	Ez-Gro Humic Acid (80%)
3695	Ez-Gro Fulvic Acid (70%)
3955	Iron Chelate 13.2 % EDTA
3662	Pulverized Dolomitic #80 Limestone
30593	Dimension Turf Herbicide
21080	Qualipro Propiconazole
43600	Primer Soil Surfactant
43625	Revolution SWDG
43657	Sixteen90
43163	Li 700 Surfactant
20991	Honor Fungicide

I want it all!


----------



## Shadow4478

LarryFunkster said:


> How bout these guys for our side of the border. Beats going through customs and duty. Not sure where you'd up $$$ compared.
> 
> http://www.seedranch.ca/Prodiamine-65-WDG-5-Lbs-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5-lbs.htm


They ship from the states 
Just select USPS should be fine 
They charge GST only


----------



## SNOWBOB11

LarryFunkster said:


> Have you purchased from Plant Products before SNOWBOB11?
> 
> Larry
> 
> 
> 
> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes those are what you want. Keep in mind that is only a 1lb bag of as. It seems like the ebay price I paid for a 25lb bag has gone up so I'd probably buy it from here now. http://m.plantproducts.com/ca/index.php
Click to expand...

I did earlier this year. I bought a bag of SOP.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

cfinden said:


> That plantproducts.com website looks awesome @SNOWBOB11
> 
> I just sent them an email requesting pricing on this list:
> 
> 42245 QualiPro T-Nex 11.3 ME
> 3694	Ez-Gro Humic Acid (80%)
> 3695	Ez-Gro Fulvic Acid (70%)
> 3955	Iron Chelate 13.2 % EDTA
> 3662	Pulverized Dolomitic #80 Limestone
> 30593	Dimension Turf Herbicide
> 21080	Qualipro Propiconazole
> 43600	Primer Soil Surfactant
> 43625	Revolution SWDG
> 43657	Sixteen90
> 43163	Li 700 Surfactant
> 20991	Honor Fungicide
> 
> I want it all!


If you call them they will give you pricing and shipping over the phone. I believe you can also pick up if your in the area to save on shipping. Not sure there going to sell you the fungicides though.


----------



## Sinclair

They won't sell you the PGR, the pre-m, or fungicides. That stuff is reserved for sod farms, golf courses, etc.


----------



## cfinden

@SNOWBOB11 @Sinclair I was wondering about that.

Oh well I'm pretty excited about the humic and fulvic as an RGS alternative. Also there's some cool looking surfactants on that list.


----------



## Harts

They're probably similar to Brett Young. They will sell you pretty much anything granular. Anything liquid will only be sold to licensed applicators.


----------



## kaptain_zero

I can't buy surfactants at EvenSpray as they are lumped in with commercial herbicides that require a licence. At least I can still buy baby shampoo......


----------



## Harts

Just wait until the government finds out what you are using the shampoo for and a ban will soon follow, I'm sure.


----------



## llO0DQLE

Lol no kidding.


----------



## kaptain_zero

With hardly any hair on my head, the shampoo is *OBVIOUSLY* for a nefarious purpose! :mrgreen:


----------



## Shadow4478

kaptain_zero said:


> With hardly any hair on my head, the shampoo is *OBVIOUSLY* for a nefarious purpose! :mrgreen:


Need to fertilize more !!


----------



## kaptain_zero

:thumbup:


----------



## kaptain_zero

Oh wait..... I think I might have to slit seed first..... :shock:


----------



## Shadow4478

No, Airrate first !


----------



## kaptain_zero

Ouch.....


----------



## Shadow4478

@Harts thank you for the BY recommendation I could not resist to put down 1 application 
Here are some picture if anyone is wondering what it looks like, very small granular pallets spreads very easy. 
Didn't really smell bad, NOTHING like a farmers field after they fertilize. Slight smell of something sweet. But I'm sure someone could describe it differently.

If anyone else is wondering 
Process was fantastic 
- Called them up 
- Place the order chatted with the rep 
- Emailed rep all details 
- lady from billing called me up and took payment 
- product arrived at door 
AMAZING!!!


----------



## Harts

Glad it worked out. They are very easy to deal with.

I look forward to next May when my first app will go down!


----------



## cfinden

@Shadow4478 throw er' down!

I have so many open bags of fertilizer in my garage I'm thinking of buying some plastic containers with lids. Anyone have ideas for a fert storage solution?

Another thought I had for next spring. Have any of you guys took part in a chemical split? Do you think there would be issues with having another TLF user shipping chems from the US to Canada? I wanna get some PGR and Prodiamine, but I really don't wanna spend $300-500...


----------



## Harts

But 5 gallon buckets with lids from HD. I have two of them. I bought clear garbage bags and lined the buckets. Probably not necessary but I did it anyways. Much easier to pour out of the bucket than the fert bags.

Check the marketplace next spring for group buys. Some guys up here have successfully split with Americans and had their stuff shipped across the border.


----------



## kaptain_zero

Just a reminder that CUPW and CPC are still in contract negotiations and that mails *could* come to a standstill if either side issues a 72 hour notice to that effect. I think they will settle soon, but then again... I don't know.


----------



## MMoore

I need some surfactant... not really now because I wont be spraying much of anything now... but I bought some tenacity and some PGR but forgot to add in the non-ionic stuff...

anything in Canada I can get easily? seed superstore shipments are money.


----------



## Harts

Baby shampoo. Never tried it but others swear by it.


----------



## cfinden

@MMoore Brett Young has this one and a few other choices.

http://www.brettyoung.ca/professional-turf-and-reclamation/water-management/wetting-agents/flo-thru™-penetrant

A few guys in here including myself have ordered from Brett Young.


----------



## Harts

I'm not sure if BY will sell that to you. When my rep dropped the 5-1-2 off he handed me a catalogue and I asked if I could get ANYTHING in there. His response was anything granular. I would need a license to buy any of their liquid products.

@MMoore not sure if you have checked yet, but I think this is your rep for Eastern ON:

Eastern & Central Ontario 
Ron Milne
905-213-5710
[email protected]


----------



## kaptain_zero

I tried to buy to buy a container of Li 700 surfactant from EvenSpray, but they cannot sell it to anyone without an applicators licence.


----------



## cfinden

I think I'm gonna get this certificate:

https://mytrainingbc.ca/homepesticideuse/


----------



## cfinden

Any fellow Canadians have some prodiamine to split?

Thanks, 
Cody


----------



## Shindoman

cfinden said:


> Any fellow Canadians have some prodiamine to split?
> 
> Thanks,
> Cody


I have a 5 lb jug of the granular that you are welcome to have for free. I can't use it as 
I'm transitioning to a blend with Colonial bentgrass in it. I'm actually making a real quick trip 
to Kamloops tomorrow morning. PM me.


----------



## cfinden

@Shindoman thanks for the jug! Nice to meet a TLF member in the real world.

I'm happy to share this Prodiamine WDG. If anyone needs some let me know.


----------



## Shindoman

cfinden said:


> @Shindoman thanks for the jug! Nice to meet a TLF member in the real world.
> 
> I'm happy to share this Prodiamine WDG. If anyone needs some let me know.


No Worries, glad it gets put to use.


----------



## Xanta_Claws

https://turf-sharkfertilizer.com/tu...rganic-turf-products/alfalfa-5-1-5-with-kelp/

Has anyone tried or recommend Alfalfa 5-1-5 with Kelp 100% Organic Turf Product?

This is from Turf Shark Fertilizer and is available in Ontario (maybe elsewhere too, not sure)


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@Xanta_Claws I used that a couple times last season. I purchased it at www.pricelessproducts.com. I liked it. Distributed through the spreader well. I'd recommend trying it out. You could also use alfalfa pellets but I like that this one has kelp and is easier to spread.


----------



## cfinden

Anyone have a source for Serenade Bio-Fungicide? 
https://www.cropscience.bayer.ca/Products/Fungicides/Serenade-Max?province=bc&lang=en-CA

I got a soil test done through Brett Young, guy came and took the samples. I talked to him a bit about their products, he says he can sell me surfactant, humic acid, and bio-stimulants. No herbicides though.

Here's some prices and info from an email he sent me:


Hi Cody,

Your soil sample has been sent away to Logan Labs, I should have results back near the end of the month. Please find attached receipt. I have also attached information on our Humic Acid products (as per our discussion).

Adams Earth is $245.00/2.5 gal jug (rates are 2-3oz/1000ft2 monthly) Humic source from Leonardite
Redox Fairway+ is $205.00/2.5 gal jug (rates are 3oz/1000ft2 monthly) Humic source (C-85) from Leonardite
Replenish 5-4-5 granular is $45.00/50lb bag (rates are 10lbs/1000ft2 every 45 days). Humic source from Chicken Compost.
These products will enhance the microbial activity in the soil which will produce healthy plants. Let me know what you think!

Thanks,

Pat​


----------



## SNOWBOB11

I wouldn't pay that much for humic acid. I just got the extreme blend from kelp4less. Much cheaper. You just have to mix yourself being it's a concentrate.

7 springs farm ships serenade to Canada.


----------



## cfinden

@SNOWBOB11 Thanks for the Serenade source!

Yes there's no way I'm paying that much. I'm able to get a 50lb bag of Black Earth Actuv80GG for $16 CAD locally. (https://www.blackearth.com/products#ACTIV80GG). Looks like good stuff.


----------



## Baretta

Any fellow Canadians tried using Hydretain or any other wetting agents? I hear the product works really well. I only see it sold in Canada on Amazon. I think its cheaper going through the US site. There's a Siteone not far from here that sells the Lesco version. Will inquire if they sell to residents. Did my second app of baby shampoo today but it could take some time to see results.


----------



## Kaba

@cfinden I am a few months late to the party here, but the replinish has been great for my lawn this year. I would not consider it a humic application, it's an organic fertilizer (the cheapest organic $/lbs N/ksf that I have been able to find) that has some Humic and other goodies added to it. The 10-2-5 has some synthetic components too it, but it's very cost effective. Biggest downside is no iron.

If you want cheap liquid humic, Amazon had some liquid 1 pint bottles of 12% for like $9 or something, they come in and out of stock so you need to jump on them when they show up.

@Baretta baby shampoo really helped my soil surface last year at what rate are you putting it down at? Please do let us know siteones price on the lesco hydretain.

Scotts has released summer guard which seems to have something like a wetting agent in it. However Scotts literally are freaking horrible at explaining they're products so I have no idea if it's worth the cost to try it (just because it's so easy to get at any box store), maybe it's just peat moss.


----------



## cfinden

@Kaba Good to know thank you. I'll probably try a couple bags. I haven't had much luck with the Brett Young Milo (12lbs/M) this season, I feel like I didn't get any N from it. We've had temps in the 90s (30 C) for 3-4 weeks now off and on, so microbes should be active. I ended up just putting down Urea (2lb/M) and got a green response over night.

Thanks for the tip on the humic, I ended up finding 50lb bags of granular humates for $16 locally. This is the stuff I got: https://www.blackearth.com/products-california#ACTIV80AG 
No idea if it's done anything because my lawn basically looks like garbage right now, and it's full of Poa-A from last falls overseed.

I did put down a bag of Scott's SummerGuard btw. Also no idea if it did anything to the soil, but some research leads me to believe it's a proprietary surfactant type ingredient that does the job it claims.

I'd love to get some Hydretain, anyone find a Canadian source? You guys see LCN's latest video with the potted plants? Obviously he's selling the product, but the results look legit.


----------



## Baretta

@Kaba Well I've read to put down 3oz/k. My first app didn't go so well. Nothing was coming out of my Scott's hose-end sprayer so I added water...still not much coming out. Finally realized I had to remove the filter. Second app again I tried it without water and not much was coming out until I set it to 10oz. I'm guessing I should put in 9oz for 3000 sqft and fill the remaining with water?

@cfinden That sucks about your results with the BY Milo. Was about to order Nature's Best 9-2-2 from Home Hardware but not sold online. I'll be calling around tomorrow. Have to get some N down soon. It's been very dry and warm all Spring long here. Finally got a few brief showers today. Yes the LCN is a big fan of Hydretain. I see Ryan Knorr uses Simple Lawn Solutions Soil Aeration which worked amazing for him. The 4 gallon Hydretain is being sold on Amazon for $96 free shipping. So long as you apply it where it's most needed it should last a while. Apps are every 3 months.


----------



## Kaba

Baretta said:


> @Kaba Well I've read to put down 3oz/k. My first app didn't go so well. Nothing was coming out of my Scott's hose-end sprayer so I added water...still not much coming out. Finally realized I had to remove the filter. Second app again I tried it without water and not much was coming out until I set it to 10oz. I'm guessing I should put in 9oz for 3000 sqft and fill the remaining with water?


Yes definitely mix it with water, what I was doing was in 1 ksf intervals. I'd put in 3 oz of baby shampoo (tip here, at dollarama in Ontario anyways Johnson & Johnson baby shampoo is only $3 for a big jug) and then fill up with water. Once I did 1000 sqft (and emptied it) I went back and filled it again.

If you have a scotts hose end (not ortho) that you bought in Canada it's probably in mL/L (you can tell if the dial goes to 55). I can get more detailed on this if you would like, but the rate at which you set the dial dictates your walking speed - don't think of it as anything else for a baby shampoo application. So if you set it at 55, you need to move super fast and less water will be applied. If you set it at 3 you need to walk really slowly. Either way you need to walk at a pace where you empty the sprayer container after 1000sqft and adjust the dial to suit that pace. For me a setting around 30 works well for me to cover 1000sqft in about 4 minutes (I made a mistake before). I prefer the fan setting on it. This logic works well on things that do not need a certain dilution to work like baby shampoo or rgs etc. Weed b gon is a different beast that I won't get into right now. The key here with the shampoo is you're only putting in 3 oz, and if it's all gone after 1000sqft you know you applied at 3oz/ksf.

Baby shampoo won't hurt your lawn so you can for example put in 1 oz and fill the rest with water and practice walking speeds to see what dial setting suits you best. That's what I did anyways.


----------



## Kaba

@cfinden I feel your pain with the lawn looking like no N, JTLK did a video recently saying he spoke with John Perry and he kind of skimmed through an explanation about all the rain moisture this year having some washout effect but more importantly messing up the N availability. It was one about 2 ish week ago. My lawn has had growth all of this long spring but just looked like something is wrong. What I do is compare my lawn to the rest of my neighborhood to see what their grass is doing, mine looks better than most, and in general everyone's (including mine) doesn't look as good as it should.

If you want to see the humic results, dig into the soil a bit with a spade, this year I went hard with humic and Kelp and my soil is darker further than it's been in the past, and my roots are actually getting better (I had quite shallow roots). I'm not convinced humic or other amendments show their results in the grass directly, but more into the soil. And when your soil is right, slowly over time the grass gets healthier and resists drought better, at least in theory anyways. I think conner had it right when he basically said, I swear by humic, I can't quantify why, but my grass just seems healthier.

I have a feeling hydretain isn't ready for sale in Canada for whatever reason. In addition to Amazon, seedranch.ca also has it, the prices seem too high for me to bite on it though.

Related to the by milo, in a different thread I was saying my BY rep was highly recommending the replish over the biosolids, he said the bio solids and Canada get cooked like crazy due to regulations and lose a lot of their microbial ability, the hen poop on the other hand is a lot less baked, which is one of the reasons I went with it - plus I had good luck with box store hen poop in the past as a organic supplement to my fert plan. All that said I bet the issue is related to the moisture and rain we had. If I get a chance I'll try to find that JTLK video and paraphrase it correctly lol.


----------



## Sinclair

I'm using these two products:

https://www.pricelessproducts.com/item.php?ID=85&n=Alfalfa-5-1-5-w-Kelp-Meal
https://www.homehardware.ca/en/25kg-9-2-2-iron-natural-lawn-fertilizer/p/5024216

2017 reno area is noticeably denser and more vigourous vs last year on just the Home Hardware 9-2-2 alone, and 2018 reno area is completely outpacing the first year progress made by the 2017 reno.


----------



## Baretta

@Kaba Right, it is the Ortho sprayer. On the first attempt when I filled it with water I set it to 55 but only after I had gone up and down my lawn about 5 times. Thanks for the tips. Right about J&J at Dollarama...forgot where I had seen it really cheap.

Finally getting cooler temps and hopefully some rain this week to soak it in a little deeper.


----------



## cfinden

Looking for Canadians to split Tenacity and Ethofumesate (PoaConstrictor, Prograss). See my thread:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=11317


----------



## davegravy

Are there any sources for PGR's in Canada? I couldn't find any on seedworldusa.com.


----------



## MMoore

davegravy said:


> Are there any sources for PGR's in Canada? I couldn't find any on seedworldusa.com.


are you looking for one in specific?

@Harts and I have the Aneuw PGR from seedworld.


----------



## Harts

@davegravy Seed World has Aneuw and Primo Maxx. The Primo is $400 CAD + shipping for 1 gallon. You would want to split that with one or more people. It's too much for one person.

You won't find PGR anywhere in Canada.


----------



## davegravy

OK then in that case if anyone else is looking for PGR in Canada, send me a PM as I'm interested in splitting.

I've got the following in my cart on seedworldusa.com:

imidacloprid https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/prime-sources-imidacloprid-2f-termiticide-insecticide-27-5-oz?variant=5455354167327

surfactant https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/southern-ag-surfactant-for-herbicides-1-pint?variant=372520579

blue-colorant https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/southern-ag-blue-colorant-1-qt?variant=381299688

prodiamine-65wdg https://www.seedworldusa.com/products/prodiamine-65wdg-herbicide-guardrail-barricade-crabgrass-control-5-lbs?variant=372435711

I'm just getting started with this stuff, so if there's anything else that's generally recommended to stock up on let me know so I don't have to pay shipping again. I'm thinking I'll pass on tenacity since I've never had any issue with weeds when overseeding.

Cheers,

Dave


----------



## MMoore

I would grab the tenacity still.


----------



## Babameca

bmelz said:


> My local Site One uses Speare Seeds (http://www.speareseeds.ca/) for supply and sell their own "custom" blends/mixes. I have contacted Speare Seeds directly, they offered a custom blend (or mono) of Midnight, Brooklawn2010, and Milargo. 2lbs bags all the way up to 50lbs.
> 
> http://www.brettyoung.ca/ is another seed company that does sell elite varieties. They are geared more toward commercial, so 50lbs minimum is required. Last year I was quoted at roughly $400 (delivered) for a 50lbs bag of Bewitched.


I got KBG from them. Was contaminated with no whatever, but quack grass! Identified very easily. The area I reseeded had it. All the rest of the lawn had no issues.


----------



## Babameca

cfinden said:


> Anyone have a source for Serenade Bio-Fungicide?
> https://www.cropscience.bayer.ca/Products/Fungicides/Serenade-Max?province=bc&lang=en-CA
> 
> I got a soil test done through Brett Young, guy came and took the samples. I talked to him a bit about their products, he says he can sell me surfactant, humic acid, and bio-stimulants. No herbicides though.
> 
> Here's some prices and info from an email he sent me:
> 
> 
> Hi Cody,
> 
> Your soil sample has been sent away to Logan Labs, I should have results back near the end of the month. Please find attached receipt. I have also attached information on our Humic Acid products (as per our discussion).
> 
> Adams Earth is $245.00/2.5 gal jug (rates are 2-3oz/1000ft2 monthly) Humic source from Leonardite
> Redox Fairway+ is $205.00/2.5 gal jug (rates are 3oz/1000ft2 monthly) Humic source (C-85) from Leonardite
> Replenish 5-4-5 granular is $45.00/50lb bag (rates are 10lbs/1000ft2 every 45 days). Humic source from Chicken Compost.
> These products will enhance the microbial activity in the soil which will produce healthy plants. Let me know what you think!
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Pat​


Hi all,
I may another source, I found for Humic, fluvic and Kelp. All concentrated to the point a kilogram will last you few seasons:
https://www.agsolcanada.com/e-store/humates
https://www.agsolcanada.com/e-store/fertilizer-foliar-applied/tri-kelp-store

Better call for shipping rates.
Cheers,
Milen


----------



## Kaba

Great find! Please share if you find out shipping rates - this will be a good option for next season!


----------



## Babameca

Kaba said:


> Great find! Please share if you find out shipping rates - this will be a good option for next season!


I already ordered few times from them. Shipping ranges 15-25$ From Kitchener to Montreal. I save the 10% QST so...not bad.
1kg of Tri Kelp is 70$ but it is dried 3 varieties pellets.
I do my own 2:1 Humic/ Kelp and add their TrueBlend which is micros. This is my go to when Nitrogen is to be avoided. 
M


----------



## thud

Agsol is not far from me. I just called and talked to a rep named jeff. He was very helpful. I am new to lawn care and this group. My lawn has had no help for 10 years so i ordered fulvic acic, humic acid and kelp. I will try to start a lawn journal to see how these products help.


----------



## Harts

Kelp4Less is also another alternative. I will be ordering from them today. Their Extreme Blend (Humic, Kelp, Fulvic & Amino Acids) is about $23 USD and $32 for international shipping. This is for a 1lb bag. With rates of 1tbs / gallon for a soil application. That will cover 32,000 square feet. That will give me approx. 13 applications for my lawn.


----------



## Grasshopper

Just wondering if you guys fertilize through the summer and if so what'd you use and at what rates?
I haven't fertilized since mid June but lawn looked like it could use some N so grabbed a bag of the 5-1-5 turf shark alfalfa with kelp . Any suggestions on how much I should throw down, keeping in mind I'll be starting the blitz soon?


----------



## Kaba

@@Grasshopper are you irrigating regularly, and does your grass look stressed? I just applied 0.25#N (chicken maneure fert) because I got watering late and my lawn needed a kick start now that temps are declining. It's been struggling for just over a month solid now.

If you don't need to, I wouldn't. My summer advice is don't do anything unless your lawn is begging for it.

If you just have the itch because you haven't done anything for a while, spray down some Humic or baby shampoo or something to scratch it


----------



## Babameca

Harts said:


> Kelp4Less is also another alternative. I will be ordering from them today. Their Extreme Blend (Humic, Kelp, Fulvic & Amino Acids) is about $23 USD and $32 for international shipping. This is for a 1lb bag. With rates of 1tbs / gallon for a soil application. That will cover 32,000 square feet. That will give me approx. 13 applications for my lawn.


I don't see anywhere a detailed description of how much of what this product has...
I buy 80% Humic and 100% Kelp and prefer to know how much of each goes in my yard.


----------



## Harts

@Grasshopper I think @Sinclair uses that product.

@gergelybg I just called K4L:

Extreme Blend:
70% Amino Acids
10% each Humic, Fulvic and Kelp


----------



## Sinclair

@Grasshopper 2000 sqft....put down the whole bag.


----------



## Babameca

Harts said:


> @Grasshopper I think @Sinclair uses that product.
> 
> @gergelybg I just called K4L:
> 
> Extreme Blend:
> 70% Amino Acids
> 10% each Humic, Fulvic and Kelp


80% Humic 1 kg 17 CAN
100% Kelp 1 kg 70CAN (sells for 1/2 price by the manufacturer but it is in Australia...)

You can make 10 kg of Extreme Blend minus the Aminos. I don't know...


----------



## Grasshopper

@Kaba 
Totally itching to get going on the blitz and wanted to give it a kick start with the cooler weather now.. Also wanted to start adding organics before it's too cold... Will be going heavy on cracked corn and alfalfa next spring.

Ive tried to minimize my irrigation as much as possible this season...
I've irrigated about 3" total so far and hand watered a few spots occasionally. Front yard is decent.. backyard is struggling.. 
I think I'm just gonna get rid of the whole bag as @Sinclair mentioned.

@Harts have you ordered the extreme blend yet? I was gonna get it also and it seems shipping is same for 2x1lb bags...


----------



## Kaba

Make sure you water if you fert to avoid pushing growth on stressed grass. Don't worry too much, the organics will still breakdown for a long time I'm sure we'll have days over 20 end of Sept the way things have been going lol.

If your goal is fast %om you can always topdress 1/4 maneure or compost, doesn't have to be organic fert.

In my scheduling I found it hard to have a good organic program with the urea blitz, simply too much N in the fall to allow for much warm weather feeding. Depending on your goals and what your soil needs you could push a lot of alfalfa in lieu of the blitz. On a different forum last year this guy experimented with putting down a crazy amount of soy, like biweekly for most of the season literally no reported adverse effects just super healthy grass. If you're putting down pure organics (no sop or ams added) it seems like an N limit doesn't exist.

On the flipside I'm considering next year to only foliar apply N in the spring with a goal to be under 1#N total by August and push 2#N over August, September and October. I think my lawn gets too much N (last year I was almost 5#) I have been applying a lot of humic to my calcitic lawn this year and it has noticeably released previously unavailable nutrients, it feels like I fert when I apply humic.

Just some things to consider to make lawncare more confusing lol.


----------



## Kaba

Harts said:


> @Grasshopper I think @Sinclair uses that product.
> 
> @gergelybg I just called K4L:
> 
> Extreme Blend:
> 70% Amino Acids
> 10% each Humic, Fulvic and Kelp


For illustratitve purposes, you would need a ballpark of 5lbs of extreme blend per gallon of water to make something equivalent-ish to RGS.

10oz of 80% humic gets you to the 6% plus 4/5oz of fulvic and kelp to make a gallon of RGS otherwise.


----------



## cfinden

Fruitful trip to the US today.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

@cfinden I'm interested to see how those varieties of TTTF work for you.

What's the bottle to the left? I can't quite make it out.


----------



## cfinden

@SNOWBOB11 me too! I've got too much shade for KBG, figured elite TTTF was the next best thing. These cultivars can be mowed low as well (at least ~1") kinda low.

The big bottle is Ethofumesate 41% (prograss, POA constrictor).

I got vetoed on a full reno because we're having a baby due on Aug 15, fair enough haha. So I'm planning blanket sprays of Tenacity and Ethofumesate to hopefully kill all undesirable grasses and maybe some FF. Then I'll overseed the whole thing with the SSS TTTF mix.


----------



## davegravy

What's the best option for molasses in GTA?

(I want to break down the dead grass clippings -not necessarily thatch- trapped under my living lawn as per: 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12692 )

I've found Molasses Powder at Kelp4Less but there's no recommended application rate:
https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/molasses-powder/

I've found blackstrap molasses at gardener's pantry but it's pretty expensive ($13 for a bottle which is only enough to do 1 application in my yard)
https://www.gardenerspantry.ca/blackstrap-molasses.html

How frequently should I be applying this stuff anyways?


----------



## Harts

Try this place: https://www.agsolcanada.com/e-store/bio-stimulants/molasses-non-gmo-black-strap

I've never ordered from them.

I saw your other post. I'd rent a power rake and get it done. I've also done it in the Spring in the past.


----------



## Babameca

Harts said:


> Try this place: https://www.agsolcanada.com/e-store/bio-stimulants/molasses-non-gmo-black-strap
> 
> I've never ordered from them.
> 
> I saw your other post. I'd rent a power rake and get it done. I've also done it in the Spring in the past.


I ordered 2 times already. They are legit. If shipping cost is high at checkout, contact them directly and they will do their best to find best rate. Sonja Cosic will take care of you.


----------



## Kaba

I've bought from Amazon to make D-Thatch, about $13 for 3lbs of liquid, not the best price but one bottle was all I needed to make a gallon.

Blackstrap is a pita to breakdown with ams I found.

Additionally: I found if you have too much dead grass (aka dead yellow grass from stress or disease) it won't break down much from just stimulating microbes via molasses. You need to follow the principles of composting where you have a good mix of green and brown to properly breakdown, otherwise you just get a matted layer of straw that stops your lawns lifeline and breaks down at a ridiculously slow pace. So slow in my case that it never really shrinks as more gets added every year.

I have been converted to a believer in using the sun joe. Couldn't believe how much pure yellow I pulled out. If you have a small amount (like 1 or 2 times you mulch mowed when grass was too long) the molasses will help, but if you had die out over summer... There usually aren't enough warm days left to break it all down in my opinion, it only works efficiently while it's hot and we won't get long enough good heat in the fall.


----------



## davegravy

Kaba said:


> I've bought from Amazon to make D-Thatch, about $13 for 3lbs of liquid, not the best price but one bottle was all I needed to make a gallon.
> 
> Blackstrap is a pita to breakdown with ams I found.
> 
> Additionally: I found if you have too much dead grass (aka dead yellow grass from stress or disease) it won't break down much from just stimulating microbes via molasses. You need to follow the principles of composting where you have a good mix of green and brown to properly breakdown, otherwise you just get a matted layer of straw that stops your lawns lifeline and breaks down at a ridiculously slow pace. So slow in my case that it never really shrinks as more gets added every year.
> 
> I have been converted to a believer in using the sun joe. Couldn't believe how much pure yellow I pulled out. If you have a small amount (like 1 or 2 times you mulch mowed when grass was too long) the molasses will help, but if you had die out over summer... There usually aren't enough warm days left to break it all down in my opinion, it only works efficiently while it's hot and we won't get long enough good heat in the fall.


I'm leaning this way... Plus I've been waiting way too long between cuts for years (had 2 kids, busy work schedule, long summer vacays, other priorities) and there's just tons of crap in there I fret will never break down no matter how good my mowing regimen is going forward.


----------



## cfinden

@Kaba great write-up, I agree 100%. For these reasons I'm debating whether I should mulch mow at all. I'm sure there's benefits, but can we create similar benefits with organic fertilizers like SBM, alfalfa, cracked corn, etc?

I just dethatched my lawn for the first time and took out 15 bags of dead stuff.


----------



## Kaba

Yup this summer has changed my perspective too on mulch mowing.

However, I do not believe that the clippings are directly my issue. I have an old lawn, full of fine fescue and fungus and heat annihilates it. So I am always riddled with a ton of random brown dead 4+ inch stalks of grass (as opposed to the mulched from 1 inch to <0.5 inch clippings which I don't think leads to build-up). These dead stalks thin the lawn, fail to breakdown at a reasonable pace, and due to the humidity spread and basically encourage the fungus. So bagging my clippings at least stops spreading the fungus, and reduces the buildup of debris that's being blocked from all of the dead grass.

I believe mulch mowing is great if:
1) you're cutting <1 inch off at any given time
2) you're mulching mower is properly set up to mulch
3) you have a good quality mulching blade
4) you water properly and lawn isn't excessively heat stressed/dying
5) you do not have a fungus issue

Without a proper inground irrigation system, and the massive hassle fungicides are here, I have just given up on this battle and am going to likely only bag next season to see if there is improvement, and of course mechanically dethatch when dry in the growing season (nearly destroyed my lawn dethatching first week of May last year, never again). The dethatcher really gets rid of all the stuff that summer ruined before it starts to clog up on the thatch layer.

edit: mechanical dethatch was actually last weekend of April, not first week of May.


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## Babameca

Mulch and thatch are different... Mulch will turn to thatch if not timely decomposed. Not all thatch is due to 'bad' mulching.
KBG with its rhizomes is much more prompt to form thatch than not spreading grasses.
Some thatch is good!
Micro activity in the lawn is important.
Those are just few points to consider.


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## Harts

@Kaba you mentioned you almost destroyed your lawn last spring with a mechanical dethatch. What happened? I power raked the first week of may in 2018 and my lawn grew back thicker and healthier than ever.


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## Kaba

Scalped the living daylights out of the lawn in more spots than just this. It was way too aggressive and my lawn was way behind the neighborhood greening. I checked the dates I actually did it last weekend of April, that pic was May 1st. It took until about May 20th the blend in. Lesson learned grass was too fragile and wet to do it and it was too cool for the lawn to recover. It never thickned up again (again barely any kbg here) and I was babying it with fert, water and seeded. Weeds were a battle in those areas all spring.

Doing it again I would wait 2 weeks to do it when it's a bit warmer in May, the grass has started to strengthen, threat of frost passes. I know it sounds silly 14 days but that would put me at 3rd-ish lawn cut, knowing that the grass is truly growing and a lot more resilient. I think I damaged a ton of crowns.



To put it in perspective, this is April 30 one year after:


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## Harts

Yea maybe too aggressive on the scalp?

I power raked and over seeded. This was right before I found out about TLF.

This is what mine looked like on May 9th





June 10th



June 20th


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## davegravy

Kaba said:


> Yup this summer has changed my perspective too on mulch mowing.
> 
> However, I do not believe that the clippings are directly my issue. I have an old lawn, full of fine fescue and fungus and heat annihilates it. So I am always riddled with a ton of random brown dead 4+ inch stalks of grass (as opposed to the mulched from 1 inch to <0.5 inch clippings which I don't think leads to build-up). These dead stalks thin the lawn, fail to breakdown at a reasonable pace, and due to the humidity spread and basically encourage the fungus. So bagging my clippings at least stops spreading the fungus, and reduces the buildup of debris that's being blocked from all of the dead grass.


This sounds EXACTLY like the experience I'm having (repeatedly each year), and tearing my hair out over. I'm so glad it's not just me.

I've never done a full lawn reno starting with a full kill, but I've done serious overseeding enough falls that I never really considered my lawn "old" but perhaps that's just what it is. Even this summer which had an unusual lack of dry hot spells, and in which I was super attentive to watering and cutting regularly the lawn is like a man's salt and pepper beard. It's doing way better than most years but still 50 % dead stuff. My mower on mulching mode pulls up all kinds of dead stuff that is way longer than the small green stuff I'm actually cutting, and dumps it back on top of the lawn.

I've never had a problem with areas I've used the thatch rake on filling back in, but I've typically done it in the fall not spring.


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## Kaba

@Harts yours turned out great! It looks like even just those 9 or 10 days would have helped me. All the yellow you see in my photo isn't the dead stuff I pulled up, this picture is a day or two after cleaning up, that yellow is what is left of my crowns/grass. It was terrifying.

@davegravy yup, it's the worst. I bought the sun joe dethatcher on prime day, and used it that week in July during the heat wave on the highest setting. Kept the lawn watered after I used it and it helped reduce the amount of yellow grass. Melting out is still present in my lawn, and there are still an overall haze as a result, but less at least.


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## doverosx

Pur Gro Chicken Manure and readily available from Home Depot!

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/purgro-granulated-composted-chicken-manure/1001238278


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## Harts

I saw that the other week. That's a new product this year.


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## Kaba

Acti-sol is cheaper at Rona for basically same product, especially if you buy it when they have 15% or 20% off events. It was still the cheapest to buy from By $/N-wise. I bought 4 bags at Rona in March when they had a 20% off sale, think it came to about $12/bag.


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## MMoore

is there any Fe in the Pur Gro? that's most of the benefit of the other chicken manures/biosolids.


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## Harts

For the Ontario guys, here is a source for granular humic - Blackearth.

There are 2 distributors in the KW area (I told the rep I was in Mississauga and these were the closest distributors):

Bio-Ag Consultants in Wellesley
Evergreen Liquid Plant Foods in Breslau

According to the manufacturer they should be carrying 55lb bags. I have no idea of price as I haven't contacted them.

Rates per the rep at Blackearth are 20lb/M which can be split or put down all at once.


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## Kaba

I haven't seen any poultry products available in my area (not that I've looked into many) that have any Fe. Full of Ca, but I've been running foilar apps of Fe to compensate. The biosolid options do have Fe (home hardware or Brett Young)


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## MMoore

Harts said:


> For the Ontario guys, here is a source for granular humic - Blackearth.
> 
> There are 2 distributors in the KW area (I told the rep I was in Mississauga and these were the closest distributors):
> 
> Bio-Ag Consultants in Wellesley
> Evergreen Liquid Plant Foods in Breslau
> 
> According to the manufacturer they should be carrying 55lb bags. I have no idea of price as I haven't contacted them.
> 
> Rates per the rep at Blackearth are 20lb/M which can be split or put down all at once.


20lb/m? dang sounds high.

isn't humic something you cant overdo though? would be willing to bet just using a bag on my whole lawn at 4.2kft would still be of benefit being 13lbs/m.

follow up when you get a price!


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## Nismo

Btw as a user of ACTIV80 GG, highly recommend wearing a mask when you spreak this stuff. It dusts like crazy and gets in your ears, eyes and nose very quickly. Would be nice if we could source Humic DG instead. Its supposed to be way less dusty.


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## cfinden

@Harts @Nismo @MMoore I've been using the Blackearth ACTIV80 AG (Agriculture grade) versus GG (Greens grade) I can't compare the dustiness of the 2, but I don't find it that dusty when I spread it. Like there's no way I would need a mask.

Pricing is ~$16 a bag from my local farm store.

I just put my second app of 20lb/M, both all at once.


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## Nismo

Next time I'll try the AG. The GG goes everywhere. It's like a brown cloud (really fine / small granule) when broadcasting.


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## Babameca

I have this:
https://www.agsolcanada.com/e-store/humates/truehume-80p-new-e-store
It is 80% very soluble humic acid. 1kg covers 1 ac. It goes for 17CAD and the 4kg is 34CAD.
I mixed this, their TriKelp, and micronutrients and just sprayed my reno. I used it before on my old lawn and love it.


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## MMoore

doverosx said:


> Pur Gro Chicken Manure and readily available from Home Depot!
> 
> https://www.homedepot.ca/product/purgro-granulated-composted-chicken-manure/1001238278


Saw it at HD. Got 2 bags.

Stanks


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## canadian lawn

@Nismo The andersons Humic DG is sold by the Thompson's limited. They have several locations throughout Ontario. I get the 25kg bag for $62 cash from the Norwich location.

https://andersonshumates.com/humic-dg-now-available-in-canada/


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## Nismo

canadian lawn said:


> @Nismo The andersons Humic DG is sold by the Thompson's limited. They have several locations throughout Ontario. I get the 25kg bag for $62 cash from the Norwich location.
> 
> https://andersonshumates.com/humic-dg-now-available-in-canada/


Yikes! 62 dollars is double what I paid for 25kg of ACTIV80 GG. I'll see if they're willing to price match


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## Grasshopper

Got a reply from Evergreen Liquid Plant Food
And Bio-Ag Consultants
both $25 for 55lb black Earth AG.


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## Kaba

So looking at $10/ksf if applying at 20lbs/ksf? How many applications were they recommending 3 per year? Stuff ain't cheap. Any real advantage over liquid apps?


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## doverosx

Kaba said:


> Acti-sol is cheaper at Rona for basically same product, especially if you buy it when they have 15% or 20% off events. It was still the cheapest to buy from By $/N-wise. I bought 4 bags at Rona in March when they had a 20% off sale, think it came to about $12/bag.


https://www.rona.ca/en/10-kg-pure-hen-manure-68905002

Very interesting!

The Pur Gro doesn't have iron (at least it isn't listed). I've been using MARPHYL soil enhancer which has some iron, as a bio stim. I get it shipped from Amazon; https://marphyl.com/product/soil-enhancer/. So far, I've had two neighbours ask me what I've been doing to the lawn - in a good way .


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## cfinden

@doverosx I've seen this stuff at Canadian tire, I'll have to try it out. It's vegan too! Haha


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## Harts

@Kaba one advantage would be for guys who hate spraying! Granular is much easier to apply. But that stuff is expensive. I'm going to stick with the extreme blend from K4L.


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## Kaba

Since we tend to get off topic discussing non fertilizer related topics in this thread we can redirect any general Canadian discussion to the hometowns here:
Canada [General]


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## g-man

@Kaba I can move and merge post if you guys want me to. Just let me know.


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## doverosx

Thanks for the bump.

I have applied the Chicken manure twice now and I'm very impressed. More to the point, I also brought over a bag of Milo and a bunch of NExt products that I purchased from thelawncarenut. Zero issues at the border which was surprising because I got a freebie ;-). Up to now I have been using the Marine Phytoplankton product from Amazon, Super Thrive, Scotts 9-1-1, ProMix (Mixture of all three of their seeds), ProMix Heal and Feed, Chicken Manure 5-4-2 (CarbonX is based on Chicken litter), Nematodes x4, Super Thrive! and now that I have hit week 4 after overseeding....I'll break out a split of the N blitz whilst training the grass to grow wider and intensify roots with lower and more frequent mowing.

I really need to start my journal, the results are much better than I expected but also...much more work to come.


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## stansoltz

FIRST POST!
Hey, just stumbled on the PurGro chicken manure... will this give me the organic benefits like Milo? i.e., will little microbes and 
stuff start establishing themselves in the soil?
Just noticed it at Home Depot!
https://www.homedepot.ca/product/purgro-granulated-composted-chicken-manure/1001238278

Sorry, and what's the bag rate here? Treats how many square feet?


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## SodFace

stansoltz said:


> FIRST POST!
> Hey, just stumbled on the PurGro chicken manure... will this give me the organic benefits like Milo? i.e., will little microbes and
> stuff start establishing themselves in the soil?
> Just noticed it at Home Depot!
> https://www.homedepot.ca/product/purgro-granulated-composted-chicken-manure/1001238278
> 
> Sorry, and what's the bag rate here? Treats how many square feet?


I put down 20kg of 5-3-2 acti-sol for just under 4000sqft. Was just over 0.5lb N per 1000sqft. Should add a bunch of organic stuff to the soil.


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## Harts

stansoltz said:


> FIRST POST!
> Hey, just stumbled on the PurGro chicken manure... will this give me the organic benefits like Milo? i.e., will little microbes and
> stuff start establishing themselves in the soil?
> Just noticed it at Home Depot!
> https://www.homedepot.ca/product/purgro-granulated-composted-chicken-manure/1001238278
> 
> Sorry, and what's the bag rate here? Treats how many square feet?


1 bag will treat 1000 sq ft and put 1lb N. You will need 5 bags to cover your lawn. That's pretty expensive fert.

If you don't have any, find your nearest TSC and get some urea.


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## SodFace

I use this fert calculator. Super simple http://agebb.missouri.edu/fertcalc/


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## Kaba

The cheapest organic option for $ per lbs N is soybean meal. I've been using it for the last few months it's great. $19 (no tax) for 50lbs and it's roughly a 7-1-1.


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## rjjrmiller

It looks like Canadian lawn care lovers have been working together and compiling whats probably one of the most valuable sourcing lists available for Canadians and easily the #1 list for organic and semi organics.

I want to add a USA safe source. I was the first Canadian to actually talk to the owner and explain the situation we are in and I explained how much I've bought from seedworldusa. And still early in the season, spring was just ending but we Canucks had no choices. Why would customs stop collecting the duties paid when we buy. I had no lawn products when we bought this house. I've only had 1.5 summers to work on the lawn and only discoverd seed world for this lastsummerits now ¹s ingredients called "Main Event dry iron with micros". Also has humic acid and all wetting agent for foliar uptake of thatb
(Double digit 10% iron) and all chelated including the micros
Here's the link to the main event. I sound like a commercial...I'm just that impressed.

https://gloriousgardenspro.com/products/main-event-dry-chelated-iron-6-0-0-non-staining-3-lbs#.X-nZfXtHCDo.link

Its an excellent product I doubt I'll beat. No gummy residues and disolves fine with regular temperature water. Edit for this, forgot that originally orderd 4 packs 3lbs each and I changed my order to 3 packs which was fine. But she decided to add the 4th pack for free because she spent an extra few days findibg efficient shipping options. A free 3lb package! That went a long way for me.

I just checked the herbicide section and lots of new additions.

I buy 6-0-0 Main Event Dry Iron with Micro nutrients I doubt I'll find something better. But has anyone tried this? I might get one

SEQUESTRENE 138Fe Iron Chelate 6% for Alkaline Soils 5 lbs
Here's the link
https://gloriousgardenspro.com/products/sequestrene-138fe-iron-chelate-6-for-alkaline-soils-5-lbs

Since last spring her lawncare inventory has gotten some nice additions and she has better shipping, and drastically better customer service. 
Her name is Karen, mention your a Canadian if you contact them to save you some time.


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## SNOWBOB11

@rjjrmiller Cool. Thanks for the addition.


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## toyopl

New season is coming up who's bying what this year ?


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## Tag38

What's everyone getting this year?


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## M1SF1T

For the organic matter/natural stuff, I ordered some of the the 9-2-2 + 2% iron 25KG bags from Home Hardware, I also have a couple 25kg bag of Sustane 8-2-4.... and urea...

I saw 10kg Acti-sol 5-3-2 pelletized chicken manure is on sale for $13 at my local H.H... that's cheaper per lbs of N than the H.H. 9-2-2 @ $69/bag...

I might make a drive to Buffalo for a couple bags of Milo (among other things) when the border/testing issues come to an end.


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## SodFace

M1SF1T said:


> acti-sol 5-3-2 pelletized chicken manure is on sale for $13 at my local H.H... that's cheaper per lbs of N than the H.H. 9-2-2 @ $69/bag...


not bad - gonna check my local one.

Bougt a ripped bag of hh fert(like 5-6-6 or something? can't find on their site) end of season which will last me awhile. %75 off for the bag being taped shut and seemingly full.


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