# SP's thread



## social port

This is my lawn journal for the 2018 season. It is really a continuation of my fall 2017 reseed thread-my lawn is just at a different place now. For anyone interested in the full background, you can check my old thread here https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=999

Overview:
I had a relatively successful reno (85% of 20k) in the fall with TTTF. Most of my new grass did not grow enough (sub three inches) to mow before winter came.

I did not have my first cut of the entire lawn until February. About a week and a half before I mowed, I put down starter fertilizer with mesotrione because I was afraid of harming young grass with a traditional pre-emergent.

Here are the main themes and goals for this season:

*Weeds*
I already have some weeds-broadleaf mainly. I'm not too worried about them right now. I may use a post-emergent later this spring.

*Color variation*
I have an ugly mix of grass close to my house. I made, what is in hindsight, a mistake when I did my reno: I left some of the old, healthy grass that was near the exterior of my house. Now that the old grass is growing beside the grass I used for my reno, it looks yellow-ish and wild. I haven't decided whether to kill this grass this fall or to simply seed it for several years with the hope of creating a more uniform stand.
I've also noticed some yellow patches of grass here and there throughout the lawn. It grows at a different rate than my TTTF. I'm not sure if the patches are plants that I didn't kill during the reno or if it is a grassy weed.

*The fence is coming*
I hear the fiery footsteps of Beelzebub coming up behind me. SWMBO wants a fence in the backyard. It's a privacy issue, and I completely understand. But it takes away the visibility of my grass from the street, and it detracts from the thrill of running long passes on a zero turn across my backyard. It also creates new challenges with watering, access to sunlight, etc.
A patio in the backyard in on the horizon as well. Between the patio and the fence, my backyard is going to get mangled. More seed this fall, for sure.

*Dimension applications*
I'm trying to align the fence installation with my window for the pre-emergent. I've got things arranged so that just as the coverage for the mesotrione is ending, the fence will be installed. Once the fence is installed, I'm putting down some dimension.

*The Bermuda saga*
Some of you may remember that my weed garden last year was also a hangout for Bermuda. I spent most of the year trying to get rid of it. I haven't seen any this year, but I am keeping a close eye of things. If nothing else is accomplished this year, the Bermuda shall not return. If I see it, I will probably return to Ornamec. If necessary, I'll use glyphosate. I'll sacrifice any and all fescue for Bermuda eradication.

*Soil nutrition*
My soil never received the full nutrition package it needed last year. I've been trying to address phosphorous deficiencies via starter fertilizer, but other nutrients have not been added. My original plan was to NOT add anything to the soil this spring in order to avoid feeding any Bermuda that might still be lurking in the ground. Then, during fall, I would make as many amendments as I could.

Now I am thinking that this strategy may be too extreme. Perhaps I should make applications now, and then get a soil test in July to see how I am doing. 
Possible apps:

KMag (3 applications, with each application = a third of the label rate) 
Two applications of 2.5 tablespoons of Borax per k (mixed with a very light dose of Milo)

I want to do some organic feedings with alfalfa pellets or cracked corn, but I am worried about attracting animals. Can anyone advise here? Am I being ridiculous?

*Bare spots*
There are spots in my yard where grass is simply not growing. I reseeded these areas at least twice. I need to figure out what is going on…perhaps another screwdriver test. Perhaps these are areas where water pools during rainfall. At a minimum I want to diagnose the issue. I've considered transplanting grass to these (relatively small) areas, but I would like to first know what is keeping grass from germinating and/or living in these areas.

*Differences in growth rate across the lawn*
My reno was ultimately successful. What I have noticed, however, is that I am getting very different rates of grass growth in different areas. These differences cannot be linked to access to sunlight, as far as I can tell. I suspect that this is a nutrition issue, but I am hard-pressed to explain why or to think of alternative explanations for differential grass growth.

*Hvac drainage*
I have two areas near my house that collect drainage from an air conditioner. No grass is going to survive in these areas. The ground turns into a black, soggy mess. I hope to address this issue this year, but I am still thinking through solutions. I've been reading this thread as well https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1547

*The bumps*
My lawn is not smooth. There are bumps, more bumps, and even some bumps after that. It is pretty bad. I would really like to smooth things over, but I am still not sure about the right solution. I'm definitely a 'drag a pallet from a tractor' kind of guy, but the kind of material I should use for leveling, as well as the cost, is something I need to research more.

*Border around the house*
I would eventually like to install some kind of border that spans the full perimeter of my house. I'm thinking about using stones. It is something that I need to research, and I am not sure that I will get this project accomplished this year. From my first glance, it looks like the materials will be very costly.

Pictures? I know. I like them too. In good time…in good time. I'm trying to up my game a bit by taking notes from Pete1313. I want to take pictures of the same areas and from the same angles so that I can better document change over time.

Is my plate full? Maybe. But it's not a reno either.


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## LawnNerd

> Pictures? I know. I like them too. In good time…


Booooooo! :lol:


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## Ridgerunner

I'll be watching.  
If you need the amendments and N, I don't see the advantage of handicapping the new fescue for fear of the Bermuda. I'd go light this Spring tho.


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## social port

OK, pics for @LawnNerd

after the first mow and right at sunset.

















I'm hoping to get pictures of all zones this weekend


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## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> I'll be watching.
> If you need the amendments and N, I don't see the advantage of handicapping the new fescue for fear of the Bermuda. I'd go light this Spring tho.


 :thumbup: ok, I'll move forward with that plan.


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## FlyMike

Looking good. I did my renovation last year pretty much the same time as you and was following your progress. I'll be following again so I can keep track of mine and see what's working for you.


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## social port

Awesome @FlyMike . Sounds good. Let's grow some beautiful fescue in the south :thumbup:


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## Pete1313

Keep those pics comin' :thumbsup: 
Jealous that you are mowing already.


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## pennstater2005

That looks lush! I didn't go back and look at the pics from last year but did that fill in nicely?

@social port


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## social port

Pete1313 said:


> Jealous that you are mowing already.


I'm hoping to get mow number 2 this weekend if we get a break from the rain.



pennstater2005 said:


> did that fill in nicely?


I can't really complain.

I went back to old pictures to capture the filling-in process. The shots are of the backyard and the side yard. Unfortunately, the angles are not the same, so the effect isn't as dramatic or clear.

Side yard

10/8/17


10/11/17


10/23/17


11/6/17


11/25/17


2/27/18


Backyard

10/24/17


11/21/17


2/27/18


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## pennstater2005

@social port

I'd say that looks pretty good!


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## social port

OK, time for some pictures. The good, the not so good, and the ugly. These were taken shortly after my second mow on 3/11/18. Some of these angles/points of view will serve as my standard shots as I track progress over the year.

Side yard bordering street






Backyard








Side yard bordering neighboring house
(notice the patches of different grass. The shape made by the darker TTTF reminds me a bit of the U.S. with east and west switched )


Front yard


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## social port

Here is a weed that has been spreading in my yard. 


And here is some of the yellow-ish grass/weed that I was talking about earlier:


social port said:


> I've also noticed some yellow patches of grass here and there throughout the lawn. It grows at a different rate than my TTTF. I'm not sure if the patches are plants that I didn't kill during the reno or if it is a grassy weed.






Here is some of the mixed grass I was referring to earlier:


social port said:


> I have an ugly mix of grass close to my house. I made, what is in hindsight, a mistake when I did my reno: I left some of the old, healthy grass that was near the exterior of my house. Now that the old grass is growing beside the grass I used for my reno, it looks yellow-ish and wild. I haven't decided whether to kill this grass this fall or to simply seed it for several years with the hope of creating a more uniform stand.






And check this out: When we bought our house, the contractor said that she arranged for these tubes from the rain gutters to stick out of the ground so that the grass could be watered. That sounded absolutely ridiculous to me, but she was the expert. Anyway, these are an eyesore, in addition to being a weed magnet. I'm not sure what I am going to do about these.


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## social port

The fence installation still looks like it will be happening at the end of this month. Also, the patio installation and the driveway expansion may be happening right away. The contractor has some free time, so I may be moving forward with this as well.


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## g-man

This looks like k31 or quack. Round up it before it continues to develop.


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## g-man

For the corrugated pipe, one of these pop emitters will work really good.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1723


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## social port

g-man said:


> For the corrugated pipe, one of these pop emitters will work really good.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1723


I'm not sure that I understand. Is the benefit having a cover over the pipe?



g-man said:


> This looks like k31 or quack. Round up it before it continues to develop.


Roger that. I have some RU left from last fall.
I was considering that it might be one of these two. That quackgrass is nasty. Had loads of it last year.


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## social port

In other news, the pavers came today to dig up part of the backyard and side yard.

:shocked: 
 
:sorry: 
:fight: 
:?
I think I need to get to the Lawn Meme thread, stat. It's going to be a hard day.


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## pennstater2005

I can't believe you're just down there mowing away and posting pictures like it's nothing. It's hurtful SP.....hurtful.


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## ericgautier

pennstater2005 said:


> I can't believe you're just down there mowing away and posting pictures like it's nothing. It's hurtful SP.....hurtful.


haha.. I feel your pain. I was just watching my old mowing videos to get me through.


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## social port

@pennstater2005 why don't you come down to the transition zone and grow some fescue? Heck, you could even have a go with bluegrass. Be sure to bring your flip flops 

@ericgautier I am guilty of doing the same thing over the winter. I even have point-of-view videos. Camera work gets pretty shaky over the bumpy parts of the lawn.


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## social port

Well, the patio and driveway are done. They look nice, but the yard...the lawn is bad. Real bad.
There is no 'smilies' for throwing up in your mouth, but I need one of those.

Look at this lush, beautiful grass.





After paving, we have this







Could be worse, I know. On to the backyard, which was the pride of the lawn...









This is what the backyard looked like last week



Coincidentally, this video was recommended to me by youtube this morning: 



I'm afraid that this intervention isn't going to be enough for me.

If anyone has recommendations here, I'm all ears.
I've thought about just letting it be until fall and then reseeding.

I could also try to save it with fert, but I am also aware that it would stress the plants even more.

I've got some patches of grass that I've saved. I am also thinking about replanting them in the areas that are badly torn up in the backyard.

As one of the workers was driving away with my grass and dirt, I noticed that my new neighbor was standing in the driveway. I thought that she might be introducing herself and perhaps asking me what was going on with all the yard work. Apparently not. As I pulled away, I noticed the worker backing his truck into my neighbor's driveway. 
As I cruised back home two hours later, I noticed my dirt (which was, of course, mixed with some of my grass) setting on my neighbor's lawn. 
Logically, this move of my neighbor's seems fine: The dirt was just going to get hauled off--why shouldn't my neighbors have it. But somehow this move just strikes me the wrong way.


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## FlyMike

Have you tried the leaf blower method, or maybe a light raking? I had someone miss the driveway a little bit leaving a nice tire track down the lawn this winter. It looked similar to your situation (although only one track and not multiple like your situation). I didn't do anything to it, and it's bounced back fairly well with no assistance from me. Only thing noticeable now with it is that there's a nice long divot in my yard.

I think if you try to get it to stand back up again it will grow out of the mess it's in now.


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## social port

@FlyMike hmm... that is the Ryan Knorr method in the video above. Maybe I should give that a try. Perhaps I am overestimating the damage.


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## social port

I took a few minutes this morning to have a closer look at the damage. 
I used the Ryan Knorr-FlyMike method of using a leaf blower to stand the grass back up. Some of the grass was very responsive to this intervention, and I predict that it will come through just fine.
There are other sections of grass, though, where the grass has been uprooted. Other clumps of grass have a light dusting of concrete on them. Obviously, there isn't much I can do here. I don't think fertilizer is the answer: The grass that responded to the leaf blower looks healthy. Other sections are just too damaged. I also noticed chunks of concrete scattered around the yard; that is unfortunate, because I spent a good deal of time during my reno last year getting all of the rocks and concrete out of the yard. 
If I get some time this evening, I've got about 10 pots of turf {'sod')saved and ready to be transplanted.


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## social port

I'm looking forward to the transplant because it is something new to me. I watched a video or two from GrassDaddy and others about how to do it. It should be a fun learning experience.


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## pennstater2005

Good luck SP! Extra work stinks when you thought you were done.


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## social port

Everything went well with my transplants. They have been back in the lawn for nearly a week and are doing just fine, despite a stretch of cold weather recently. The only down-side is that the grass is TTTF rather than a grass that will spread, so my transplants look very patchy. 
I still have some patches left in my pots. I will be more strategic next time I transplant so that each patch is placed directly by the other.
I need to mow soon--hopefully today. Also thinking about using a very small amount of milorganite on a few sections of my lawn where growth is lagging.


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## Colonel K0rn

SP that new concrete looks really nice. Are you going to seal it?


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## social port

Hey, CK. We are going to try acid staining. Color is still being debated. I'm partial to something like this, including the pattern.



I will probably do the staining myself. My wife wants to stain the patio, driveway, sidewalk, and front porch :shock: , so once I get a break from lawn care, I've got another project. Good thing I already know my way around a pump sprayer


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## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Good thing I already know my way around a pump sprayer


That's what she said 

That's a cool looking effect. Just don't do what my wife and I did at our last house. We painted our front porch, which was smooth, and I didn't want to add any texture to the paint, which was a HUGE mistake. When it rained, and the porch got wet, it turned into a skating rink!


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## FlyMike

That staining looks really nice. If you end up going that route and feel like doing a write up, I'd definitely be interested in it.


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## social port

Gave the lawn a cut and trim yesterday. Fired up the blower. Scraped clippings from the deck this afternoon.







I really need to find a better mowing pattern. The layout of my lawn makes it hard to make straight, long cuts with the zero turn mower. Turning around complicates the process.

I'm hoping to do a few more transplants tomorrow. Next week I will be applying dimension and KMag.


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## Colonel K0rn

I'm not going to link Pete's video for striping


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## social port

@Colonel K0rn if you're referring to the ventrac...those stripes are unbelievable. 
Funny how they distracted him while he was talking. The same thing would happen to me. 





Also, CK, I saw where you've been writing about GCF. I'm seriously thinking about trying Air-8. I'm waiting to see what the grass factor says re his recent heavy application.


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## Colonel K0rn

IKR? The Ventrac is an amazing piece of equipment. If I had 5 acres and lived where it snowed, I probably would find a reason to buy one.

Yes, I'm on board with the GCF products. One of the main issues that prompted me into looking into improvement of my soil was poor drainage, and I have been considering putting in some drainage pipes/french drains/tile drains and shredding the front and the back lawns with trenches + the cost for materials and labor, I figured I'd give a less expensive option a try. If I can get those micro-fractures in the soil layer to help the water flow into the root zone and past the "dry layer" of sand that exists at my house, then I'll sing the praises of the product. I've committed to using their products for this season, and from a cost-standpoint, the price is hard to beat. I'll be able to see what results happen within the next few months once the rainy season kicks in. I'll be doing a soil test around June to see where my soil stands, and see what my affect my amendments have done so far.


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## Ware

social port said:


> Colonel K0rn if you're referring to the ventrac...those stripes are unbelievable....





Colonel K0rn said:


> The Ventrac is an amazing piece of equipment...


Our city is buying one of those to (among other things) mow the slopes of an interstate highway overpass. Here is a thread about it with some video of the demo. The giant roller on the back of the finish mower would be great for striping. :thumbup:


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## Ridgerunner

> The giant roller on the back of the finish mower would be great for striping.


It's one of the things I enjoy about my Steiner. The stripes drive the neighbors nuts. :nod:


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## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> One of the main issues that prompted me into looking into improvement of my soil was poor drainage


I am considering it as an alternative to core aeration. My soil was terribly compacted last year, but I improved it remarkably through the well-known homemade brews. I'm going to need additional help this year with the heavy equipment that has been rolling on the lawn during the patio installation etc.


Colonel K0rn said:


> I'll be doing a soil test around June to see where my soil stands, and see what my affect my amendments have done so far.


Will this allow you to evaluate the effects of the Air-8? I've been curious about how people will be measuring the effects of the product. I need to do more research on this topic.



Ware said:


> Here is a thread about it with some video of the demo. The giant roller on the back of the finish mower would be great for striping.


What a video. I had no idea the ventrac was capable of doing that :shock: 
Striping plus slopes? I have some pretty steep slopes in my yard...



Ridgerunner said:


> The stripes drive the neighbors nuts.


That is the direction I have been heading: I need to lay down some nice stripes. Tighter spaces with a lawn tractor make that ambition challenging.


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## FlyMike

Looks great :thumbup:


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## social port

FlyMike said:


> Looks great :thumbup:


Thanks! I noticed a dandelion while I was mowing. I'm going to hit it with glyphosate today (that is what is available in my garage). Several of my neighbors have them running rampant throughout their yards.


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## social port

Dandelions: the pimple of the lawn world


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## g-man

social port said:


> FlyMike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! I noticed a dandelion while I was mowing. I'm going to hit it with glyphosate today (that is what is available in my garage). Several of my neighbors have them running rampant throughout their yards.
Click to expand...

Why will you use glyphosate on a dandelion? That's an overkill and you have tttt lawn. It won't recover from the damage.

Go to Lowe's or home Depot or Walmart and buy a $9 bottle of concentrated weed b gonna (or equivalent 3 way). The concentrate bottle will last you years and it will not damage your lawn.


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## social port

@g-man it is way overkill, but painting with glyphosate today will save a minimum of one hour. I also need to hit some grassy weeds with glyphosate. 
Picking up a nice 3-way is on my to-do list.


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Dandelions: the pimple of the lawn world


My Dad thinks they add nice color so I go grab one and pop it's head off with my thumb and do a war scream :lol:


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## Redtenchu

social port said:


> Dandelions: the pimple of the lawn world


See how easy that works? Good one SP!


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## iowa jim

If dandelions are the pimple of the lawn world , i need to buy clearasil by the gallon.


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## social port

@Redtenchu :lol: . That's awesome.


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## social port

iowa jim said:


> If dandelions are the pimple of the lawn world , i need to buy clearasil by the gallon.


I need to buy some for my neighbors, too. The only thing is...I'm not sure how to tell them. It's like telling a colleague about broccoli in their teeth. ("Ehh...you should probably do something about those dandelions taking over right there")


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## Redtenchu

Congratulations! Your meme even made it to TLF FB/IG/Twitter Page.

Don't want to mucking up your lawn thread, just wanted to share.

https://www.facebook.com/thelawnforum/photos/a.1092548694219908.1073741829.865206873620759/1117848255023285/?type=3


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## social port

So, Nashville meteorologists got it wrong today. It was supposed to be overcast, with only a slight chance of a brief rain.
It's been raining for four hours now, and I set aside time this afternoon to dedicate to the lawn.
With no end in sight of the rain, I can't decide whether to
watch March Madness
make a trip to the store for weed-b-gone
or help @pennstater2005 clean up his garage.


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## social port

@Redtenchu :lol: There it is! Very cool.

You cannot muck up a thread, Redtenchu. You got too much flava


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## social port

My spreader was also on the TLF twitter page, so that's x2. Things are gettin' serious.


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## Redtenchu

social port said:


> My spreader was also on the TLF twitter page, so that's x2. Things are gettin' serious.


It's a very nice spreader 👌🏻


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> So, Nashville meteorologists got it wrong today. It was supposed to be overcast, with only a slight chance of a brief rain.
> It's been raining for four hours now, and I set aside time this afternoon to dedicate to the lawn.
> With no end in sight of the rain, I can't decide whether to
> watch March Madness
> make a trip to the store for weed-b-gone
> or help @pennstater2005 clean up his garage.


No reason you can't do all three! I just need Duke to win and Kansas to lose. That's not asking too much, is it?


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## social port

Redtenchu said:


> It's a very nice spreader


 :thumbup:



pennstater2005 said:


> No reason you can't do all three! I just need Duke to win and Kansas to lose. That's not asking too much, is it?


Actually, the rain just stopped, so...the garage is a no-go for me today. Sorry 'bout that. The lawn is calling.

While at TSC, I saw a bag of Milorganite. Got really excited because Milorganite seems like an endangered species around here. Next to the Milo I saw a large bag of worm castings. Got even more excited. Bought a bag. I'm hoping that there are no weed seeds in the bag. I may wait to spread it around until my next preM application.


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## pennstater2005

What were they charging for the Milo?


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> What were they charging for the Milo?


14.99 for 36 lbs.


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## social port

My transplanting went more smoothly today. Not perfect, but a definite improvement. The grass still looks healthy.



Also, take a look at this soil. I thought that the red piece might be a rock until I cut into it. I'm making an uneducated guess that this is a prime example of red clay.


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What were they charging for the Milo?
> 
> 
> 
> 14.99 for 36 lbs.
Click to expand...

Phew! That's pricey SP!


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What were they charging for the Milo?
> 
> 
> 
> 14.99 for 36 lbs.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Phew! That's pricey SP!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I passed on it. Just got the castings.


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## social port

Yesterday, I went to 4 coop stores looking for KMag and/or SOP. Came up empty handed at every turn. The best I could do was a 0-0-60, so that's what I got.
I've read conflicting information about its use on lawns. 
I'm planning to use it at approx .25 lbs of the NUTRIENT per K, followed by rain or irrigation. Applications will be made about every two weeks. If this plan is a mistake, please chime in.

I'm hoping to make the first app, along with some post-emergent control this weekend. I also got some bags of dimension yesterday. It will go down soon after the fence installation.


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## Ridgerunner

The biggest concern with potassium chloride for most people is the salt index. Overcome with just a little extra diligence to watering during low moisture situations (heat and/or drought). The biggest issue from my perspective is the lost opportunity for a Sulfate/Sulfur addition.


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## social port

Hmm...I didn't realize that not having sulfur might be a problem. 
I also bought a small quantity of magnesium sulfate yesterday. I'm not sure if I can use it or not. I need to sit down with the label.


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## social port

I spayed my front yard with a post emergent this afternoon. My mesotrione preM coverage is definitely over-I've had massive weed growth this week. As a result my spaying time took much longer than expected. I noticed that a few weeds looked like they were struggling or were damaged-probably the last effort by the mesotrione to restrict growth.


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## Ridgerunner

> Hmm...I didn't realize that not having sulfur might be a problem.


Not a problem. I just like to add it in the small doses available from regular fertilizers when the opportunity arises. Not an issue at all. Soldier on.


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## social port

@Ridgerunner :thumbup:


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## social port




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## social port

Just testing a posting technique here.


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## social port

Yes...it worked


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## pennstater2005

Yes. The big pictures!


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## social port

Continued to spot spray weeds with a post-emergent today, but I ran out of time. My backyard is in much better shape than the front. I may wait until after the fence install before I attack with a post-emergent again. I also hit some grassy weeds with some glyphosate.

I mowed this evening. I let the weeds absorb as much of the herbicide as possible: They happily soaked in the sun for at least 6 hours after application before getting mowed. I've already seen some damage to the weeds I hit yesterday in the front yard.

Oooh, and I learned how to make memes today; so that is fun.


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## social port

Found some grass clumps in the yard today, so I raked them up. Noticed that the damage from the patio install is looking much better. I'm hoping to get my 0-0-60 app down tomorrow. I'm waiting for some rain. The grass is green-don't get me wrong-but I want it to pop a little more.



Check out this cool night shot



And if any of you mow around sunset and run out of time...



It is looking like the absolute earliest day for getting my dimension down is Sunday. I'm hoping that there isn't a lot of weed activity this week.


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## Colonel K0rn

I spotted a couple waiting to be mowed. Looks great SP


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## social port

Thanks, CK. Hopefully, those buggers are on their way out of the lawn. I hit them with some herbicide this weekend.


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## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Thanks, CK. Hopefully, those buggers are on their way out of the lawn. I hit them with some herbicide this weekend.


I plucked several fully tillered goose grass plants along my fence line today. I'm not sure I got a good enough PreM spray down in that area, since I've removed one crabgrass plant and now this sh  . It's my nemesis plant!


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## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> I've removed one crabgrass plant and now this sh . It's my nemesis plant!


It never ends. Goose, crab, dallisgrass, orchard. It just might be worth it, though, when our lawns are thick, green, and completely free of weeds for one week of the year


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## gregonfire

Grass is looking great man, nice job!


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## social port

gregonfire said:


> Grass is looking great man, nice job!


Thanks! I'm hoping that the potash makes the color a bit richer.


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## social port

Can't believe that muriate of potash was all I could find around here. Probably should have ordered online, but I like to shop local, even if people give you a funny look when you ask about their stock.


----------



## social port

Got the 0-0-60 down this evening in anticipation of about half an inch of rain over the next 12 hours.

I've got to say that putting down 8 or so pounds of product over 17k sqft was more challenging than I thought. Dividing the product up (so that the hopper contained enough product for only one zone) may not have been the best strategy, as it seemed to me that the rate of dispersal varied by the amount of product in the hopper. Consistent application then becomes a concern.

By dividing the product up, I was simply taking extra precaution to not over-apply the product. I may do things differently next time.


----------



## social port

Mowed today, along with edging, trimmer, and clean-up with a blower. I need to find a way to mow more. I should really be cutting every 3-4 days.







Remember those dandelions I was going to kill?





It's a shame, really. Under other circumstances, I think we could have been friends.


----------



## social port

So, one other thing. I have mentioned that there are certain areas of the lawn where the rate of grass growth is much slower than neighboring areas. They are best described as small patches of poor growth.
I have been hoping that they would respond to some added nutrients, but so far nothing has changed: I'm still seeing slower rates of growth in these patches, and the grass just looks...weaker.

I brought out the screwdriver this evening. Surprisingly, the screwdriver went in deeply and easily. So, I'm concluding that the poorer growth isn't due to compaction.

I'm out of ideas at the moment. I've taken some pictures to show some of the bare areas in these sections of my yard, and I've tried to capture the height differences. The yard was just mowed before the pictures were taken, so the difference in height isn't as dramatic. Moss is visible in some of the pictures. You'll, of course, see that the grass simply hasn't filled in very well in these areas. It's a pretty striking contrast with the rest of the yard.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

The TTTF is looking good. Even with the few bare patches. Nice work.


----------



## Togo

The lawn is looking really good SP.


----------



## social port

Thanks @SNOWBOB11 and @Togo !

I took a couple of Aerial shots this morning. It was overcast yesterday, but the sun is bright this morning. 
Also, I wanted to have a look at a new mowing pattern. It is clean, but there isn't a hint of a stripe anywhere. I'm trying to come to terms with that, because straight passes are becoming increasingly difficult with all of the additions (patio, fence) to the yard this spring.


----------



## ericgautier

That looks good! What's the HOC?


----------



## social port

Thanks. 4.5 :lol:

I'll take it down to 3.5-4 once the weather gets muggy and humid.


----------



## Togo

What kind of mower are you using. Have you thought about making a DIY stripe kit?


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port

Looking great! Nice and thick!


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> What kind of mower are you using. Have you thought about making a DIY stripe kit?


The bulk is mowed with a Gravely zero turn. I sometimes use a Craftsman push mower, which I do very much like.

I have been thinking about making a kit for several months. It is something to experiment with, and that sounds like a lot of fun. I could make it happen for the push mower with no problem, I imagine.
I could make one for the Gravely as well, but the yard layout is the issue. I want long, continuous stripes, but the yard layout is not symmetrical in the front and there are now barriers in the back (patio and fence). By far, the smoothest way to mow now is by starting with the perimeter pass and continuing towards the center of the yard (out to in).
Now that I am thinking about it in more detail, perhaps what I should do is a general cut with the Gravely every 4 days and then a striping cut with the push mower 3 days days later. :nod:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port
> 
> Looking great! Nice and thick!


Thanks! (I'm only showing my lawn's best features) 
:mrgreen:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @social port
> 
> Looking great! Nice and thick!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! (I'm only showing my lawn's best features)
> :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

That's what I do. Same small portion of the lawn from different angles :lol:


----------



## Budstl

Do you have hi-lift blades? I would think a zero turn could put down some stripes. Try making a pass or two, then go back and forth where the sun will be at your back and in your face. Also take your pictures with the sun behind you to show the stripes better.


----------



## Togo

social port said:


> The bulk is mowed with a Gravely zero turn. I sometimes use a Craftsman push mower, which I do very much like.


The Gravely machines are nice. You might want to look at the design of the Ferris decks that come with a installed stripe kit from factory. It's just basically a rubber mat that hangs down and bends the blades over. I have been thinking about doing something similar with some sort of rubber mat. It just mounts at the rear of the deck. There are universal aftermarket kits for sale but they are stupid money ($200+) for what is maybe $30 in DIY parts.



Universal Kit
https://sleequipment.com/tru-stripe-stripe-kit-40-inch.html


----------



## Ridgerunner

Nice healthy looking grass SP. Really great color. Do you cut real low before overseeding with TTTF?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Do you have hi-lift blades? I would think a zero turn could put down some stripes. Try making a pass or two, then go back and forth where the sun will be at your back and in your face. Also take your pictures with the sun behind you to show the stripes better.


I believe they are high-lift blades. 
I haven't been making multiple passes. I'm going to give that a try. My fence is being installed today, and the border of the fence has defined a space in the lawn that is perfect for striping.
It's going to be hard to wait until it is time to mow again


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> The bulk is mowed with a Gravely zero turn. I sometimes use a Craftsman push mower, which I do very much like.
> 
> 
> 
> The Gravely machines are nice. You might want to look at the design of the Ferris decks that come with a installed stripe kit from factory. It's just basically a rubber mat that hangs down and bends the blades over. I have been thinking about doing something similar with some sort of rubber mat. It just mounts at the rear of the deck. There are universal aftermarket kits for sale but they are stupid money ($200+) for what is maybe $30 in DIY parts.
> 
> 
> 
> Universal Kit
> https://sleequipment.com/tru-stripe-stripe-kit-40-inch.html
Click to expand...

I've seen those mats before and have been interested. That seems like it would be easy enough to make, right? I'm going to see if there might be a good place to mount a mat the next time I'm underneath the deck.

If I make multiple passes AND put in a mat, things could get interesting.


----------



## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> Nice healthy looking grass SP. Really great color. Do you cut real low before overseeding with TTTF?


Thanks, RR. Real low, but not reel low. 
No doubt about one thing: The grass grown in bare soil (reno) looks much, much better than the areas of the lawn where I only overseeded


----------



## Togo

social port said:


> I've seen those mats before and have been interested. That seems like it would be easy enough to make, right? I'm going to see if there might be a good place to mount a mat the next time I'm underneath the deck.
> 
> If I make multiple passes AND put in a mat, things could get interesting.


I was thinking the same thing. The metal hardware is relatively easy to source. I've looked a little bit for some sort of mat but not terribly hard. I imagine something like that though could really do wonders for the striping.


----------



## social port

@Togo you've definitely got me thinking about setting something up. If I do, I'll post pics of the process here.


----------



## Togo

Definitely post up some pictures of what you come up with if you do come up with something. I'm thinking I may look into it this year as well so we can bounce ideas back and forth if you want.


----------



## social port

@Togo. :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Scraped underneath the mowers this afternoon.

I put some of my extra dirt in a bucket and tried to break it up, making it as fine as possible. That is difficult to do with clay soil. I tried chopping with various garden tools, but what worked best was a kitchen mixer :lol: 
I spread the dirt in some of the lower spots in my lawn. I'm not trying to make anything perfect right now. I'm just slowly chipping away at some of the more noticeable depressions. I'm not too wild about leaving chunks of dirt setting on grass blades right now.

Since I had my pile of dirt uncovered, I thought I would put some dirt in the bare areas next to the new edge of the driveway. That was going well until I noticed a little complication.
The pictures show the relationship between the level of the soil/grass and the driveway at different points in the driveway. I still need to smooth over the dirt I added today, but the problem will be obvious anyway.

Everything looks good here.



The soil on the far left is getting higher than the driveway, but nothing too bothersome.



Holy cow, Batman. Look at that height difference.



And a different view of the situation



All of this shouldn't be surprising. Going toward the house, there is a slight slope down in the lawn. Going away from the house, there is a slight slope going down in the driveway. So, that produces a defined area in which the lawn is at its highest and the driveway is at its lowest.

On the one hand, I could continue to fill up that slice of the lawn next to the driveway with dirt so that it is level with the top layer of the intact lawn. But then, what will hold the dirt up? On the other hand, I could let there be a substantial dip, so that the slice that runs parallel with the driveway is simply lower than the intact part of the lawn. But then, how will I deal with pooling water when it likely occurs--not to mention its unsightliness? My best strategy for now is to make a mound shape as I continue to fill that slice of lawn in, and see how everything falls into place.


----------



## social port

OK, so tomorrow morning I am planning to get down my preM (dithiopyr .27% at 2.75 lbs of product/k). I'm hoping that it will cover me until mid September or so (see how I arrived at this plan here https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2346).
I'm also going to make another application of 0-0-60. I hope to have everything watered in by 12PM. 
2 inches of rainfall is expected on Sunday, so I want to make sure that I establish the barrier on Saturday.

I mowed today and took pictures of each section. The lawn has changed quite a bit since I started this thread (patio, driveway extension, fence) and has been damaged. It has recovered pretty well, but it is still a work in progress.

Front yard 4/13/18







Side yard (street side) 4/13/18





Side yard (neighbor side) 4/13/18. The U.S. map shape is less visible. The old ky31 (?) has really greened up.



Back yard 4/13/18


----------



## social port

social port said:


> Budstl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you have hi-lift blades? I would think a zero turn could put down some stripes. Try making a pass or two, then go back and forth where the sun will be at your back and in your face. Also take your pictures with the sun behind you to show the stripes better.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe they are high-lift blades.
> I haven't been making multiple passes. I'm going to give that a try. My fence is being installed today, and the border of the fence has defined a space in the lawn that is perfect for striping.
> It's going to be hard to wait until it is time to mow again
Click to expand...

I made two passes on some sections of the lawn when I mowed today. Surprisingly, the striping effect was very minimal.
Maybe 4 passes is the trick...but I am very hesitant to make that many passes on a zero turn. Between ruts and turning around, I'd be putting a lot of stress on the fescue.





@Togo I've found places on the back of the Gravely where I could easily (I think) hook up a striper. I've also been watching various youtube videos on DIY stripers. 
I've been thinking, though: Humid weather is right around the corner for me. I'm not sure that I want to compress that grass any more than I need to. I may work on building a striper, but my sense is that I should stick to striping in early spring and late fall.


----------



## social port

And then there is this









All of these are taken from the same region in the front yard--in a depressed part of the yard, next to pipe/tube that carries rain water from the house gutters. This is from the same general region of yard where the growth rate of the grass has been very uneven. 
Is it confined to this area? I wouldn't swear to that at all. I'm seeing possible activity here and there --but nothing definitive.

There is no pattern that I see--it is irregular. The colors are obviously yellow, orange, and reddish in places. There is significant damage to the leaf. 
My best guesses are 
pythium root rot 
net blotch 
rust

I forgot to test for rust, but I will do so in the morning. I just changed blades, so rust seems less likely.


----------



## Togo

@social port I've been looking at amazon for parts I could use to make a kit. Found a rubber floor mat for $11 and a pair of adjustable, spring loaded, outdoor gate hinges ($25 roughly) that might work pretty well but you are probably onto something with not wanting to mat down any grass in hot humid weather.


----------



## Budstl

Lawn looks good regardless of stripes.


----------



## social port

@Togo I've seen those rubber mat kits. They are appealing because they are easy to make, inexpensive, and seem to work well. 
I may be out in left field in suggesting this, but I'm concerned about a rubber surface dragging across the grass. Seems like a lot of friction as I imagine how it might work. 
I've been thinking in this direction: Use a heavy piece of metal, rounded, and encased in a loosely fitting enclosure that easily spins. Having an exterior that is capable of rotating might be more graceful when backing up to make another pass compared to a metal bar alone. But I may be way off in my thinking here. Just some thoughts.


----------



## social port

The heavy rain came today rather than tomorrow. I'm rained out. MOP and PreM will have to wait until another day.

Rust test came back negative. I believe I am seeing a similar yellowing pattern in other parts of the lawn today.


----------



## Togo

@social port The roller idea isn't a bad route either. I've seen people make them using boat rollers. The cost goes up but the product quality does too, plus it allows the outside rollers to spin at a different rate than the inside rollers when turning. I think that it may have less possibility of binding up too. I was thinking about using the hinge sets so that when you back up the hinges bend allowing some extra give for a mat. I just don't know what will work better in the end. The friction could be a concern but I had hoped the bottom of a mat might be smooth enough to not get snagged on anything.

I may try something with a mat just to see how it does, worst case I build a roller and I'm really not out much in costs for a mat.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> The heavy rain came today rather than tomorrow. I'm rained out. MOP and PreM will have to wait until another day.
> 
> Rust test came back negative. I believe I am seeing a similar yellowing pattern in other parts of the lawn today.


If not rust what do you think it is?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> The heavy rain came today rather than tomorrow. I'm rained out. MOP and PreM will have to wait until another day.
> 
> Rust test came back negative. I believe I am seeing a similar yellowing pattern in other parts of the lawn today.
> 
> 
> 
> If not rust what do you think it is?
Click to expand...

I don't know. But I think it is starting to take over large parts of the lawn--which suggests that it may have been spread with my mower yesterday. My wife even commented about there being a yellow color "everywhere."

I'm not good with disease ID. Using an online ID tool, I arrived at pythium root rot, net blotch, and rust. I think I've done enough to eliminate rust.
Other, much less likely explanations: I used herbicide on 3/31 and 0-0-60 on 4/3 (very light rate). It was so long ago, I really don't like either of those explanations.

I didn't use a preventative fungicide because I'm smart about my watering, I wanted to keep the good fungi thriving, it can be pricey, and my neighbor never has used one and has never had an infection.

I could be mis-assessing the whole thing, but at this point what I am seeing definitely has me concerned.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port

What is TTTF most susceptible to? I'm not very familiar with it. Hope you get it figured out.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port
> 
> What is TTTF most susceptible to? I'm not very familiar with it. Hope you get it figured out.


Fescue in the transition zone is susceptible to everything :lol:

There's some truth in that, but...
Brown patch is probably the most common disease here.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

It hasn't gotten warm enough for brown patch to be an issue, has it? I thought that was usually a summer problem when the grass didn't get a chance to dry out. Also, in your avatar, is Bill the Butcher wearing a TLF logo on his sleeve? I haven't seen the full sized picture


----------



## social port

Heya CK!


Colonel K0rn said:


> It hasn't gotten warm enough for brown patch to be an issue, has it?


I think it is too early for me to be seeing brown patch. I don't think that is what I have. The disease--if that is what it is--has an irregular pattern rather than a circular one.
A condition such as net blotch, however, can occur in early spring. That is what I am currently leaning towards, but identification is a process. We've got some drier weather coming this week, so I am curious about how things will look then.

If it is net blotch, I probably won't use a fungicide. My cultural practices are good. As I understand it, the infection will die off with continual good cultural practices and increasing temperature in the summer months.



Colonel K0rn said:


> Also, in your avatar, is Bill the Butcher wearing a TLF logo on his sleeve? I haven't seen the full sized picture


Why yes, that is a TLF logo.
Yeah, I love that avatar. Attention to detail. Credit goes to @LawnNerd for creating it. 
It came about in my old thread, right about here https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=999&start=200
But I should warn you: The avatar came about during a conversation about combating a certain warm season grass.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

:lol: Love it!

Paging @thegrassfactor, maybe you can give Mr. Port some help on identifying his mystery ailment of his weaker species of grass.


----------



## thegrassfactor

@social port is in the money. Net blotch/leaf spot/helminthosporium. Too wet, too cloudy, too long. If it doesn't clear up with heat and sunshine, maybe a fungicide ::cough:: mancozeb ::cough:: would work. It's only labelled for golf courses though....


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> weaker species of grass.


I absolutely love fescue, CK, but you make a good point. I admit that there may be _one_ type of grass that is better than fescue. There are times, especially late at night, when I begin thinking. 
I think about no reseeding requirements. I think about the merits of spreading ability. And I think about the advantages of tolerance for a low, low HOC. And then it crosses my mind, every now and then, and for the briefest of moments, that _Kentucky Bluegrass_ just might be the superior turf type.


----------



## social port

Big thanks to @thegrassfactor for confirming the disease ID and to @Colonel K0rn for making that happen!



thegrassfactor said:


> a fungicide ::cough:: mancozeb ::cough:: would work. It's only labelled for golf courses though....


No problem. I have a nice mix of flat areas and slopes. My lawn could work as a golf course. 4.5 inch height of cut, so no tee required. Bonus.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Colonel K0rn said:
> 
> 
> 
> weaker species of grass.
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely love fescue, CK, but you make a good point. I admit that there may be _one_ type of grass that is better than fescue. There are times, especially late at night, when I begin thinking.
> I think about no reseeding requirements. I think about the merits of spreading ability. And I think about the advantages of tolerance for a low, low HOC. And then it crosses my mind, every now and then, and for the briefest of moments, that _Kentucky Bluegrass_ just might be the superior turf type.
Click to expand...

If my climate could grow it, I'd have it in my lawn, with no hesitation or reservations.


----------



## social port

Time for a quick update. Cool season subforum is booming. I thought I was going to have to use the search function to find my thread :lol: 
First, can I just say that there is nothing like grass with deep, rich color...





I got my PreM (dithiopyr .27% at 2.75 lbs of product/k) down and watered in on 4/20. Heavy rains are coming tomorrow, but a 48 hour window between watering-in and heavy rain should be ample time.
I'm looking for a window for a quick MOP app.
I mowed, trimmed, and edged today. It got too dark to take pictures. I was able to snap a few after edging. One is from after edging before mowing, and the other is post edging and post mowing. 




Finally, when I'm mowing, I've got this sticker to remind me of my standards. I need to get another for the back and/or side.


----------



## FlyMike

Have you done anything to take care of the possible leaf spot? The grass looks great and can't see any signs of it from the pictures.


----------



## pennstater2005

Looks awesome SP!


----------



## social port

Thanks @pennstater2005 !

@FlyMike I did not treat the net blotch. We had a nice stretch of days with sunshine, and it improved. It 's not completely gone, but it is substantially better. It is barely noticeable.

Going into the heavy humidity of May evenings with a disease will be the true challenge. Having a disease may increase the susceptibility of additional disease during the humid months. I'm hoping for another stretch of dry, sunny, and windy conditions before the humidity starts.


----------



## social port

Yesterday while mowing, I noticed a sizable cluster of POA plants growing in an adjacent property. Needless to say, they've got my attention.

Also, a neighbor stopped me for lawn advice. Among other things, he inquired about the type of grass he should try to grow. I calmly pointed out the color difference between the yellow Bermuda lawns and the deep green fescue lawns in the neighborhood. I think he got the message. It feels so good to do the right thing :nod:


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I hope you explained to him that he's yet to putt on a fescue green, and if he's going for the golf course look, Bermuda is where it's at. Plus he can overseed with PRG if he doesn't like the dormant look. 

Yard is looking great. Wonderful color. Sure you didn't enhance the hue?


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> Sure you didn't enhance the hue?


Oh, you mean in the photo (as opposed to nutrient supplementation)? That is entirely possible. I took the photo with my phone, and it sometimes uses HDR. I've never looked into what exactly that is, but I have noticed that it changes the overall shading of the pictures. I do believe that the first picture was an HDR picture.



Colonel K0rn said:


> I hope you explained to him that he's yet to putt on a fescue green,


Oh, no need. This fellow is not a golfer. Besides, please see this


social port said:


> Big thanks to @thegrassfactor for confirming the disease ID and to @Colonel K0rn for making that happen!
> 
> 
> 
> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> 
> a fungicide ::cough:: mancozeb ::cough:: would work. It's only labelled for golf courses though....
> 
> 
> 
> No problem. I have a nice mix of flat areas and slopes. My lawn could work as a golf course. 4.5 inch height of cut, so no tee required. Bonus.
Click to expand...




Colonel K0rn said:


> he's going for the golf course look, Bermuda is where it's at


Funnily enough, golf courses never came up. He kept on talking about how he liked the look of all the fescue lawns in the neighborhood.



Colonel K0rn said:


> Plus he can overseed with PRG if he doesn't like the dormant look.


He sure could. But this fellow is busy. He needs a lawn that stays green year-round without a lot of extra work.
I'm just being a good neighbor, CK  Giving the best recommendations that I can.


----------



## social port

BTW, CK, I'm not liking all that rain you're going to be getting. We're going to have a healthy amount here, but nothing like what you are getting, I imagine 

You're really going to be putting that Air-8 etc to the test.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I know man, I'm hoping that WUnderground is more accurate. They're calling for only 2.15". We are in a slight drought, there haven't been many rainy days this year, and the last rain we had was the only accumulation of over 1" in quite some time. Even with that amount, the rain that I did have in the front yard was gone by 5PM, and the back yard surface was dried out first, which really shocked the heck out of me. I do have to say, I've been enjoying the cool weather. it's in the mid 60's today, and has been for quite some time. I suspect we're going to have 4 distinct seasons this year.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> I suspect we're going to have 4 distinct seasons this year.


That is what it feels like here. It contrasts so clearly with last year, which was a mild winter followed by 2 weeks of spring, and a 6-month summer.



Colonel K0rn said:


> the back yard surface was dried out first, which really shocked the heck out of me.


I've got a few areas that pool. I haven't yet treated them this year, but I am seriously kicking around giving Air-8 a try. I'm going to watch those videos you just posted in your thread later on tonight. TheGrassFactor's video comparing the various liquid aeration products was intriguing.


----------



## social port

It seems like I have been very busy with the lawn to have no entries lately.
I mowed 4/28, and got everything shaped up nicely







I love how tall fescue pops like that.

This weekend I also installed some runners to hang my lawn equipment up-my garage is much tidier now.





Remember the driveway and patio installation? I saved as much of the dirt as I could. For a month or better, it has been piled up under a tarp on my driveway. This weekend I cleared the driveway off, putting all of the dirt into 45 gallon trash cans. So…now I have a lot of dirt in garbage cans in the garage. You wouldn't believe how heavy they are.





My plan is to spread this dirt around this fall just before I overseed. I am hoping to smooth some of the bumpiness in the lawn, as well as fill in target low spots. 
I have no experience storing dirt, so if storing all of this dirt in garbage cans is a bad idea, please let me know.

Today, the temperature was pushing 80. So, it is time to modify my HOC.



Then, after mowing





I would really like to keep it at 4.5 to maximize color and to mitigate against some of the dryness in the heat of summer, but I feel like I need to increase air flow right now, especially since I am not using a preventative fungicide.

Of course, cutting lower can make potential problems more apparent. I noticed a few of these spots.








As far as I can tell, that grass is dead-no hope of coming back.
I know fescue dies out some, but it seems a little early in the year.
My working theory is grubs, but I don't really see any evidence of grub damage.
My next theory is stress from mowing: The areas photographed in particular suffer through the back wheels of the mower pulling the grass pretty hard. There is nothing smooth about my turning through these areas. 
But really, I'm not too sure what to think.


----------



## social port

Hmm...judging by the pictures, it looks like I also need to double-check the blades on my mowers. 
I just changed the blades in Feb/March, so that shouldn't be happening.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Looks great, even with the things that you can notice. Color is on point too.


----------



## pennstater2005

Lawn looks good SP. I couldn't imagine any adverse effects from storing the dirt inside in bins. What system are you using in the garage?


----------



## gregonfire

Looks great, SP! Edging on point too. I love a tight edge.


----------



## social port

Thanks @Colonel K0rn . I have been happy this winter and spring with the nice grass. It has truly been a pleasure. With summer coming, the lawn is about to be tested for durability and hardiness. All hands on deck.



pennstater2005 said:


> Lawn looks good SP. I couldn't imagine any adverse effects from storing the dirt inside in bins. What system are you using in the garage?


Thanks! 
I probably made a mistake with the garage. I used this 
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Rubbermaid-Fasttrack-Garage-15-Piece-Black-Silver-Steel-Storage-Rail-System/1000142945
Too pricey. Having seen the final result, I think I could have done nearly as well with some boards, nails, and some hooks. 
But there are benefits, I suppose: The rails look really nice, the equipment is secure, and it is easy to switch the placement of hooks and equipment.



gregonfire said:


> Looks great, SP! Edging on point too. I love a tight edge.


Thanks, Greg. Amen to that!


----------



## Togo

@social port the yard is looking great 👍🏻

Those edges are on point.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Nice crisp edges SP. Colour looks great too. Nice job. :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Thanks @Togo and @SNOWBOB11 . The Echo edger means business. I'm still building up the skills necessary for edging with a string trimmer. I'd like to be proficient with both methods.


----------



## Togo

@social port yeah the string trimmer is definitely much more difficult. It's easy to run astray with it and ruin the line.


----------



## social port

and ruin the grass too  
Double-whammy.

By the way, Togo, I think I am going to try my hand at striping at least once before the summer. The only thing ... I'm going to use my pushmower rather than the zero turn.

Do you use both a push and a tractor? I like the look from my pushmower so much better than the zero turn. It's weird, but it seems like my grass likes the push better too.


----------



## Togo

@social port I have a small Honda push mower (backup duty now) and a commercial walk behind. My push mower leaves a nice cut but it doesn't mulch very well and leaves long strips of clumped grass. The walk behind does a much better job in that regard and I think it leaves a cleaner look than my Honda.

I actually just got a checkmate stripe kit in the mail today, installed it quick and gave the lawn a cut. I have to say it works very well. It was more expensive than buying the parts to build the exact same thing my self but only slightly more, shipping was quicker for the whole kit vs waiting for various connectors and wheels from multiple locations and I didn't have much to put together once it arrived. I guess I got impatient... lol


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## social port

Applied weed-b-gone CCO to the lawn on 5/4. I thought it was going to be a 30 minute spot spray outing, but it ended up taking about 2 and 1/2 hours due to the number of weeds. Pressure is pretty high in my front yard right now, even in areas with the thickest grass.

Applied 0-0-60 at approx .35 lb/M on 5/5. The rain watered it in for me.

Today I trimmed the bushes/shrubs etc and put down 40 bags of mulch (2 cu ft per bag).





I'm hoping to mow tomorrow, as I'm overgrown already.


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## Colonel K0rn

Ouch, 40 bags? Time to consider buying it in bulk? Beds look good too bro. Nice looking nandinas. Those new?


----------



## pennstater2005

Landscaping looks great! I need to get the CCO out as well.


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## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> Ouch, 40 bags? Time to consider buying it in bulk? Beds look good too bro. Nice looking nandinas. Those new?


Got them all for under $130, but at some point yesterday I thought I might have broken my back :lol: 
Funnily enough, I'm not even sore today.

The plants are nearly two years old. Fertilized them about one month ago, and shaped them yesterday. I don't know anything about caring for those kinds of plants-I'm just winging it for now. The grass is where it's at for me.



pennstater2005 said:


> Landscaping looks great! I need to get the CCO out as well.


Thanks. You know, I had so many weeds that I would have been better served by using some of those pre-mixed bottles that attach to the hose.


----------



## social port

Been very busy with the lawn/other projects over the past several days.
First of all, I double-checked my Herbicide, and I bought WBG rather than WBG CCO. No wonder my clover is looking so healthy :roll:

On 5/7 I mowed the backyard with the pushmower.

Why didn't I use the Gravely? Because the Gravely is the mower with the dull blades. I bought an impact wrench to help get the lug nuts off, but it doesn't do the job. I made a last ditch effort with a cheater bar of some kind. My wedge ended up falling out, so my hand went crashing into the side of the mower's undercarriage. I thought I broke my thumb, but I wrapped it up and by the next day I was using a string trimmer 





On 5/8 I mowed the front yard with the pushmower. I also began work on adding color to the driveway, patio, front and back porches, and sidewalk. We decided to go with a Sherwin Williams color stainer and sealer product rather than acid staining. The surfaces must be prepped to enhance bonding with the paint, so I applied phosphoric and muriatic acid to the patio, front porch, and sidewalk, which then had to be brushed in and then rinsed off. I believe this part of the process is called etching.

Today I mowed the side yard with the pushmower. I also edged the perimeter of the property where it meets the curb.
I don't know what I am going to do with the Gravely at the moment. I really prefer the pushmower, but it takes so much longer to mow.

This round of mowing was the first time I mowed diagonally. I like the look, but the pattern is too cumbersome with the Gravely.



I also made a $5 dollar striping kit. Why am I being so cheap? I probably will not stripe often enough to justify the cost of a real striper--at least for right now.
The striper did not work well, but I made only one pass. It needs to be heavier.
I made it from these materials (clamps, Orbit tube), in addition to a piece of rebar.





I need something heavier that I can place in that plastic tube.


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## pennstater2005

The striping does look nice. How will you make the roller bar heavier? Push mowing 20k is out of the question so you better get the Gravely situation under control :lol:

I pushed mowed for one year and then bought a rider and I only have 15K. Mowing with one hand while drinking a beer with the other is a must :nod:


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## social port

@pennstater2005
:lol: :lol:

I used a push mower for a season and then realized that an upgrade was necessary. I've wondered if Connorward reel mows all of his 20k (and every day/every other day at that).

I'm still thinking about ways to increase the weight. Ball bearings is an option, but I need to do research to determine if they would be much heavier than the rebar. The rebar is pretty heavy for its size.

It stinks because it took over an hour to cut the rebar. I was out in the garage until midnight, sawing like a madman.


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> @pennstater2005
> :lol: :lol:
> 
> I used a push mower for a season and then realized that an upgrade was necessary. I've wondered if Connorward reel mows all of his 20k (and every day/every other day at that).
> 
> I'm still thinking about ways to increase the weight. Ball bearings is an option, but I need to do research to determine if they would be much heavier than the rebar. The rebar is pretty heavy for its size.
> 
> It stinks because it took over an hour to cut the rebar. I was out in the garage until midnight, sawing like a madman.


I've thought about a reel mower but I'm just too lazy for the push ones and too poor for the triplex models  Ball bearings is a good thought you might be right about the weight difference between that and rebar. Maybe just a bigger piece of tubing to stuff more rebar into. I can't even think about striping cause I'm still fighting some weeds and weeds don't stripe all that well.


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## social port

Yesterday, I mowed the backyard with the push mower. 
I also continued to work on getting our concrete surfaces ready for staining (front porch, side walk, driveway, back porch, and patio). I was able to finish etching with phosphoric and Muriatic acid, so the surfaces are ready for color.

Today I mowed the front and side yards. I was able to use the Gravely. I still haven't been able to budge the lugs. So, I did something questionable: I sharpened all 3 blades while attached. I was careful to count each brush with my file to try to take off equal amounts (imperfect as this may be). After I sharpened all three blades, I ran the mower on the driveway with the blades engaged to ensure there was no rocking/bouncing/unevenness. Everything seemed fine, and I wound up with a nice cut. 
It's not something that I plan to do again, but it worked in a pinch.

My wife and I also starting staining/sealing the concrete today (using a solvent-based paint). We put two coats on the front porch, and one coat on the back porch and the patio.
For tomorrow, we are hoping to get down two coats on the driveway and sidewalk, and finish the back porch and patio. I'm going to be taking some before-and-after pictures of a few of the surfaces. If all the stars align, then this concrete project will officially be over by tomorrow night. That's fine by me, as I would like to have more time to focus on the lawn/lawn tools.

I don't think that I've done a stretch of work this intense since the reno. I may have to go out to find some beer.


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## pennstater2005

Looking good. I'm liking the old style chair too!


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## social port

The sealing project is on hold for now. We finished the back patio, back porch, and front porch, but the driveway needs another application, and the sidewalk needs two applications.
Here are some before-and-after shots:











I'm not going to be able to work on the lawn for a week, so I mowed the side and front yard today with the pushmower. If the rain allows it, I plan to mow the backyard tomorrow.

Really, this isn't the best time to take my eyes off the yard. I have some browning and dead grass distributed across the front and side yard. These are some of the worst spots.


I think that it relates to using the Gravely last week. Tearing of the blades is evident. My backyard seems to be in pretty good shape, and it is the only area where I did not take the Gravely last week.


I think drought and heat stress might be contributing factors. The area has seen record highs this week, and it has been pretty dry. We had a quick and heavy downpour today, so that should help some.
I'm beginning to suspect that one of my three cultivars is weaker than the others. It may be that it tolerates low water less favorably, or it may be less hardy in general. I have no idea how to determine which of the three is the weak link. I'm already thinking about reseeding this fall. I may shake things up a bit and have a go with Dynamite LS. Novel for my lawn, plus lateral spread, albeit of the fescue kind.

If you have a spouse that questions your 'rules, restrictions, and preferences' regarding what happens to your lawn--a spouse who may think that you are a bit uptight or catastrophic in your estimation of the consequences if your lawn isn't treated 'just so' -- then have them look at this picture.


This is why we obsess over the details and are mindful of what activities are going on in our lawns. We know that it isn't a good idea to leave a doormat on cool season turf in full sun for 8 hours on a 90 degree day.


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## pennstater2005

@social port

Wow the stain turned out really nice. My wife thought I was being anal because I made them get the hose off the lawn. It doesn't take long for the grass to yellow.


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## social port

Tell me about, pennstater. I found a hose lying on the grass this morning :|

I finished mowing the backyard today.


I've got lot of weeds popping up and some quack. My next step is to get these under control, and I'm due for another MOP app.


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## social port

Ok, after being away from the lawn for a week, I was pleasantly surprised to see that it didn't fall apart while I was gone.
It was overgrown and out of shape, for sure, but I see very little evidence of disease at this point.

I mowed the front and side yard today. I bagged the clippings-I don't even want to know how badly I violated the 1/3 rule. I know that if it browns/yellows, the color will come back-I just don't like stressing the grass during disease season.

My weed situation is getting out of hand. I'm ordering some CCO tomorrow. I also noticed some smooth crabgrass today. I already have some regular weedBGone.

Going to get some 0-0-60 down on the next rainy day.
Despite the high temps, my color is holding up pretty well, at least in certain places. To be honest, though, I've got a lot of areas that look like they are suffering from heat stress right now. I'm wondering if a deep watering might be helpful.


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## social port

Mowed the backyard today. Ordered some CCO. I'm expecting rain for the next four days or so. That should take care of heat stress.
I am sooo close to finishing my second DYI striper. I just need one more part, then I'm good to go. I was really hoping to stripe it up today, but no dice.


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## pennstater2005

Overall still looks good. I hear ya on the weeds. I've got ivy and just general broadleaf stuff popping up. It's too damn hot to even think about touching it now though. I've been hand pulling a lot lately.


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## social port

@pennstater2005 change in grass color, disease pressure, weeds and other quasi-vegetables popping up, and high temps restricting herbicide apps...I miss spring already


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## social port

So, two things.
I did myself a favor today by mowing the front and side yards. I think I have set myself up perfectly with the rain forecast. I can get my MOP app down tomorrow just before a half inch of rain. Then, Saturday morning I can take care of WBGCCO and glyphosate apps, while hoping for a six hour stretch with no rain.

Two, I finished my second trial with a DYI striper. 
I'm calling this another failure.







This one is loosely based on LCN's old DIY striper. I used pvc pipe, sand, and water. His worked much better. Mine just isn't heavy enough.

Third time is a charm. My DIY striper effort is about to come back with a vengeance :nod:


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## pennstater2005

@social port

Always nice when things flow together! What's the plan for the next striper?


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## social port

@pennstater2005 I'm still working on the details, but it involves using metal for the roller encasing. That was my original idea, but I couldn't find a suitable piece of metal until my most recent trip to Lowe's.
Now, Papa's got a brand new bag :twisted:


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## social port

Well, bad news. What could it be, you ask? Probably the roller.
Yes and no.
The roller didn't work out. Papa got a brand new bag, but it had a hole in it. 
I took a piece of metal from this bar.


I liked it because the surface is very smooth, so it would be kind to the grass.
And the metal is heavy.
I even put the rebar from my first roller inside the metal piece. It just wasn't heavy enough to keep the grass from springing back up.



But it gets worse. Disease?
Yes, I saw some dollar spot and an isolated spot of brown patch.

But it's worse. I was spraying triclopyr today -for three and a half hours. That gives you a lot of time to really look over the lawn. 
As I was spraying, I noticed a Bermuda blade waving up at me, probably 5 inches in the air. To all of you warm season enthusiasts: I like Bermuda just fine as long as it's not in my lawn. But this Bermuda is in my lawn.



If I had been spending more time inspecting my lawn, maybe I could have caught it earlier. It shows the wisdom of g-man's early morning lawn walks to check for disease.

It took me 15 seconds to become ok with the idea of using glyphosate. And then I hit it. I was out there holding a spray wand to a four gallon backpack full of triclopyr with one hand and holding a spray bottle of glyphosate with the other. All told, I probably hit 15 'stems.'

The plan going forward: I need to assess the extent of the Bermuda return. If it is widespread, I may use Ornamec. If not, then I like the certainty afforded by glyphosate.

I wish there was a way to light up the Bermuda to see exactly where it is. You may say, there is: it's called dormancy. But I checked regularly. There was no dormant Bermuda on the surface this winter/spring. It has come from under the soil.

I'm also thinking about returning to a 4 1/2 HOC. The counter argument is that this will lead to lateral spread. But it seems to me that significant lateral spread would be difficult in 4 1/2 inch fescue blocking the sunlight. Wouldn't it be doing everything to get UP to the sunlight? If I mow at 4 1/2, then perhaps I can increase chances of vertical growth. That will make it easier to see and then, of course, hit with herbicide. Thoughts here? @LawnNerd /others: SOS


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Sorry to hear about the unwanted visitor, but am I wrong to think that an application of Tenacity would cause Bermuda to light up like the beacon you want?


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## social port

Thanks, CK, and that is a good idea. 
I am aware of some work that was suggesting tenacity as a supplemental ingredient in a larger cocktail of herbicides.
Bermuda _is_ sensitive to tenacity according to the label, and semi-dormant bermuda is susceptible to whitening. It is not clear, however, that healthy, actively growing bermuda will whiten. But the larger problem is that a blanket app of tenacity, which would be needed to identify the bermuda, would also likely whiten the fescue.


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## social port

Found a few more shoots of Bermuda on Monday. Treated with glyphosate.
Today, I mowed an overgrown backyard with my push mower. Mowing at the highest setting, I didn't need to bag. 
It seems that mowing in straight lines is more difficult when the ground is uneven in height. It could also be an illusion.


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## pennstater2005

Are you going to keep trying with the roller? Brown patch seems to be a fairly common topic here of late. Did you treat it?

Lawn still looks good. Are you going to level it with sand? I've never seen Bermuda in my lawn or if I did I probably thought it was crabgrass :lol:


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## social port

Bermuda seedheads are nearly identical to crabgrass seedheads. There is a lot of overlap between the plants, now that I think about it.

I'm planning to put some dirt down this fall before I overseed. The target area is a low spot in the front yard where I believe water is collecting and affecting the growth of the turf in that area. I'm also planning to use sand for 'blanket levleling' at some point, but not this year.

I have disease, for sure, but it is pretty mild. I haven't used preventive applications, and I do not plan on treating. If the entire lawn gets disease, I'm interested in how much it will recover in the fall. I like to think that, over time, with good cultural practices, the good fungi will be able to mitigate against the bad. Besides, at 18k-20k, fungicides just aren't smart for me, either in terms of time or cost.


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## pennstater2005

I'll be interested in how the leveling goes particularly with the soil.

I only used a fungicide because it was on 2k. Once the lawn is completely renovated I'll be in the same boat as you.


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## social port

You know, now that I am thinking about my words more carefully, what I will be doing with the dirt this fall is probably better termed 'filling in holes' rather than leveling. I don't think I will have a smooth lawn until I begin using sand-and that will probably take several years before the lawn is flat.

Also, I am soldiering on with the roller. My current one costs less than 20 dollars, and so far it is performing better than all of them. It is just one heavy, hollow piece of metal, with a thick piece of metal placed inside it and then connected to the mower via zip ties.
Nothing pretty, but I'm trying to be cheap.


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## pennstater2005

I assumed you meant filling in holes. I can't even begin to think about fine tuning type leveling. That's years away :lol:


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## social port

Upgraded my impact socket set. Installed new blades on the Gravely, as I found rust on my old blades.
Mowed the front and side yard. High temps have consistently been above 85, though low temps have provided some relief, and humidity has been lower this week.







I have a few problem spots that have been developing. I can't decide whether the issue is heat stress or drought stress. Given that it hasn't been seven days since the last rain-and that this has been an ongoing issue for the past month-I'm assuming the culprit is heat stress. The areas are mostly on slopes.













The grass that sits next to my house looks a lot like this. The soil there tends to stay moist, but it gets hot due to the being next to concrete and brick.

I sprayed a Humic and kelp mix on the areas, hoping to alleviate some of the stress. I'm going to monitor for response over the next week.

I'm getting a nice response from my triclopyr app, but one more application will likely be needed. The Bermuda seems to be laughing at the glyphosate apps. I'll give that a few more days to let the poison spread.


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## pennstater2005

@social port Did you notice any improvement from the humic and kelp mix?


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 I've unexpectedly had to spend much of the weekend out of town, so I haven't been able to monitor the areas closely. 
From my casual observations, the answer is clearly no-there is no improvement in the areas.

I got that tip regarding kelp and HA to aide with heat stress from a very knowledgeable source, but I was (and still am) at a loss for the possible mechanism of action. With HA, anyway, the primary benefit is chelation, so it is not clear how that would help with heat stress.

We had a nice 1 inch rainfall today, so any improvement from this point forward won't provide an indication of what made the areas improve. I'm also wondering if a screwdriver test would be prudent in these areas. They are pretty unsightly at this point.


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## social port

@pennstater2005 I was reading through a couple of threads this morning and noticed all of that gutter/pipe work that you did. It looked like a full day.


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## pennstater2005

@social port

Yeah it took about 4.5 hours. And it was only twenty feet of pipe. If it wasn't for all the roots it would've been a 1-2 hour job.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

Maybe for the pvc striper, replace sand with concrete? A bag is $5....


----------



## LawnNerd

Hey SP. Given the needling (curling of the leaves) that's drought stress. Those really bad areas are on a slope, and the water just runs off. Sure it rains, but how much of that is actually soaking in deep? Set up a sprinkler and water the area, but do it in 20 minute intervals. Water for 20, wait 20, water again, etc. That's alot of work, so you could also try a soaker hose snaked out through the area. Going forward, wetting agent will be your friend (Think baby shampoo, or tournament if you want to get high class).

Also, as far as fungicides go, You could go with 1Gal of Abound (Azoxystrobin) for ~$200. It'll treat 166K @ .77 (full rate spray for Brown patch and Dollar Spot) which is enough for 8 (8.3) blanket sprays on 20k. Just throwing it out there and a more cost effective solution.


----------



## social port

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Maybe for the pvc striper, replace sand with concrete? A bag is $5....


Thanks. I found a bag at Lowes for less than $3. Certainly worth a try!


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> Hey SP. Given the needling (curling of the leaves) that's drought stress. Those really bad areas are on a slope, and the water just runs off. Sure it rains, but how much of that is actually soaking in deep? Set up a sprinkler and water the area, but do it in 20 minute intervals. Water for 20, wait 20, water again, etc. That's alot of work, so you could also try a soaker hose snaked out through the area. Going forward, wetting agent will be your friend (Think baby shampoo, or tournament if you want to get high class).
> 
> Also, as far as fungicides go, You could go with 1Gal of Abound (Azoxystrobin) for ~$200. It'll treat 166K @ .77 (full rate spray for Brown patch and Dollar Spot) which is enough for 8 (8.3) blanket sprays on 20k. Just throwing it out there and a more cost effective solution.


Thanks, LawnNerd. I've been meaning to give the lawn a nice shampoo. I'll get the sprinklers out soon to see if I can get the areas to recover.
And thanks for the recommendation of Abound. I'm going to hang on to that for future reference. For now, I'm using sheer willpower to not get too bothered about diseases. The long-term plan is to give it a couple of years before I bite the bullet on fungicides. In several years, I may start a preventative regimine. But my real hope is that I have a clever idea for an alternative method of prevention :lol:

The bermuda is my priority right now. I'm not going to tolerate the smallest sprig. It is coming up left and right, but it is getting hit with glyphosate as soon as it pops through the fescue canopy. If this keeps up, I'll be doing another reno this year, albeit much smaller. The infestation is confined to my side yard, the area where Ornamec (instead of glyphosate) was the primary means of control last year.


----------



## social port

I'm watering the lawn this morning. Been up since 5am. The hardest part was linking all of the hoses together. Moving the ole impacts around is actually kind of fun. I forgot how much I enjoyed that.

Planning to get a mow in this week.
Need another herbicide app, but temps are nearly 100 at the peak. Too risky for my comfort.
I would really like to do another 0-0-60 app on the next rainy day. I would also like a nice shampoo, but probably not on the same day. Honestly, I think the shampoo takes priority over the 0-0-60 right now.


----------



## LawnNerd

Yo, So skip the mow if you can. Best to just let the grass rest as much as it can in these temps without rain. (Are you getting any?)

Do the SOP any time you like, it doesn't harm the grass, and almost better to do it before you water the yard. I'd hate for you to get a t-storm roll in and wash it all away. Spinklers are gentle than a heavy thunderstorm. But i agree with you, shampoo should be higher on the priority list. Need water deep in that soil more than you need K

Regarding the Fungicide, usually young turf (<1 year old) is often the most susceptible to fungus. Obviously this can swing with the weather on any given year. If you don't need abound this year, then theoretically your less likely to need it (but that doesn't mean you can't still get it... )

THE BERM... ohh i can't even finish typing it... the DEVIL has been spotted in my yard again. New spot, and also returned where I saw it in the front last year. I've got some fine fescue in the front, that just looks bad so i was planning on renoing out that area, but now i'm going to incorporate the 2 devils spots as well. I'm going to mix in the Fusilade (stronger % of Ornamec) with my Glyphosate. Word on the street is that this cocktail will really make the devil weed suffer. Like sizzle and burn suffer... which is just what i'm going for....

I feel your pain with it. Take no quarter!!!


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> THE BERM... ohh i can't even finish typing it


I'm right there with you. 


LawnNerd said:


> I'm going to mix in the Fusilade (stronger % of Ornamec) with my Glyphosate. Word on the street is that this cocktail will really make the devil weed suffer. Like sizzle and burn suffer... which is just what i'm going for....


I just want it gone. For good. 
The Ornamec-Glyphosate mix is a good idea. As you know, I'm just sticking to glyphosate. I am beginning to suspect that all areas that I hit with Ornamec last year did not die, but were not growing when I was using glyphosate towards the end of summer. As a result, some of the bermuda survived into this year. The patches of bermuda that got hit with glyphosate while they were green have not come back...yet.


LawnNerd said:


> So skip the mow if you can. Best to just let the grass rest as much as it can in these temps without rain. (Are you getting any?)


Yes, good thinking. I was assessing this morning, and I don't think I really need to mow. I've got black medic and annual rye popping up high, but I think I will just hand pull those.
No rain recently except for a very light storm late yesterday afternoon. Rain chances increase as we get later in the week, but I take forecasting with a grain of salt right now.
It has been hot, dry, and humid--for what feels like weeks.


LawnNerd said:


> Do the SOP any time you like, it doesn't harm the grass, and almost better to do it before you water the yard. I'd hate for you to get a t-storm roll in and wash it all away. Spinklers are gentle than a heavy thunderstorm. But i agree with you, shampoo should be higher on the priority list. Need water deep in that soil more than you need K


It's MOP, so I treat that more cautiously than SOP. I don't want it resting on the grass for too long with these temps, and my lack of irrigation means that some is going to be sitting around for a while before getting watered in. Not having irrigation really creates problems when you have so many products that need to be watered in. I should probably start applying and watering zones rather than trying to cover the lawn all at once--I just like doing one product on one day because it is easier to track.
Got that shampoo down in the backyard this morning. Going to hit those dry slopes soon. :thumbup: 


LawnNerd said:


> the DEVIL has been spotted in my yard again


Again, it's a sad day, LawnNerd. Glad to know that you already had a plan waiting for it. Be sure to apply an extra shot for me.


----------



## LawnNerd

I don't have the magic of sprinklers either, but i also don't have your 20k. Lol. I avoid watered in products in the summer. I just don't do it. Lol. In the spring and fall i know i'll get gentle rains

For the prills sitting on the grass, what about mowing, but not engaging the blades, and using that stripper bar? That might be enough "rake" it down out of the canopy on onto the soil surface...?


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## social port

Yeah, it has been making me really uncomfortable watering over the last couple of days. It's a balancing act between disease and damage from lack of water.

I'm going to give the roller some thought-maybe a test plot first.
I just want to make sure that the neighbors know that I'm running my mower without cutting the grass :lol: That should raise me to all-star status in the weirdo/lawn geek category.


----------



## social port

Rain. Rain. Glorious rain!
A quick, overwhelming downpour that just bounces of the lawn and runs into the street?
Nope. The good kind. Slow, steady, light, cooling, replenishing. 
Thank goodness.

I was prepared for it too. I put down a heavy application of baby shampoo on the slopes in the front yard. Whatever was left went to other spots suffering in the heat and drought of summer.
I then mixed humic acid with kelp -- leftover from last summer. I hit the slopes with that mix, then hit some of the weaker areas of my lawn, especially in the front yard near the sidewalk. This is the area where growth really stalled during the reno and is also where I will be adding soil (from other areas of my lawn) this fall.

I was also reading @Powhatan 's thread and found that his description of his soil in a certain section of his lawn matched what I see in the problem area of my front lawn near the sidewalk. He mentioned that his area is low in organic content; I have suspected that this might be the case for my problem area as well. So I took my bag of worm castings purchased at TSC a few months ago and spread it in this problem area and other struggling parts of the lawn.

I'm getting ready to throw down some money for Air-8 and D-Thatch. I also need more humic acid, baby shampoo, and worm castings. I might even go for some cracked corn. And g-man's piqued my interest in milk as well. I'm shaking things up.
Between the lack of water, compaction, disease, heavy machinery, and the bermuda return, my lawn has taken a big hit so far this summer. But I'm coming back with a vengeance this fall.


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## pennstater2005

I hear ya on the rain. Every rain we've had here lately had been a torrential downpour. I would love a steady rain.

I'll be interested to hear how your lawn responds to the most recent applications.


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## social port

@pennstater2005 there are probably better ways to track the change, but I took some pictures earlier today.
The slopes have already had about 3/4 inch of water this week, in addition to the rain. I also hit the slopes with humid and kelp-last week I believe, but with a pretty low rate.
In the ariel shot, the area beyond the black line is the slope. 
The circled area is a rough indication of the 'problem area' in the front lawn-where growth is slow and uneven and the turf is patchy. In addition to the shampoo, kelp, and humic, this area got a healthy dose of worm castings today.



And, of course, these are 'the slopes'







I have a few other areas that I hit today, but I'm not tracking them at the moment.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I've got to say that your lawn looks like a lot of fun to walk around barefoot in, dare I say throw down a blanket and have a picnic on. Good thing is that it's probably free of ants too.


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> I've got to say that your lawn looks like a lot of fun to walk around barefoot in, dare I say throw down a blanket and have a picnic on. Good thing is that it's probably free of ants too.


 :lol: 
You are welcome to have a picnic, but I would have to leave the area if you used a blanket.
Before anyone walks on my lawn, I gently grab their arm, look into their eyes, and say, "please walk lightly." (I'm just kidding. I only _think_ about doing that)

You're wrong about the ants, though. I haven't used insecticides :? I've never been able to confirm that using them won't kill my worms and other lawn-friendly fellows.


----------



## pennstater2005

Yeah the slopes are perplexing. It's not stress from the curb and road right there getting piping hot is it?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Yeah the slopes are perplexing. It's not stress from the curb and road right there getting piping hot is it?


That is what I was originally thinking--that the problem was primarily heat stress, but I really didn't know. There were too many variables to rule out heat stress (by the road, lower HOC on the slopes), drought stress (water running off the slopes rather than soaking into the soil), and even nutrient deficiencies (the grass is greener where the sewer line runs). LawnNerd identified drought stress based on the curling of the blades.
The shampoo should help water get into the soil more readily, so the areas that I hit with shampoo should perk up before too long--unless the grass is already dead (and it may very well be). The difference between signs of stress and the current disaster was minimal in terms of time.

In other news, I went to reapply glyphosate to the stalks of bermuda this morning. I found more patches in the side yard. And, for the first time this year, I found substantial growth in the backyard and in a few isolated areas in the front yard. I hit everything I saw, but honestly, the problem may be even more widespread than I dare imagine.
There is a peculiar feeling that I get when dealing with bermuda in tall fescue: It is kind of like in movies, where the main character is staying overnight in the woods. Everything seems peaceful with the campfire, the blanket, a carnivorous meal, and the sounds of the woody nightlife. Then suddenly, the character realizes that he is not alone, as he sees yellow eyes peering at him through the brush. The rush of terror escalates when the set of eyes multiplies, leaving the character fully surrounded in a circle of calm, predatory entrapment now outlined by the glow of yellow eyes.

It is still too early to say, but I am beginning to think more seriously about broad interventions. Pylex or blanket glyphosate with reno seem like the best choices.


----------



## social port

I found a few additional shoots of Bermuda today in the backyard, so I hit them with glyphosate.

I found quite a few new shoots growing in the side yard, but I ran out of glyphosate. I'm planning to restock and hit those areas tomorrow.

We've had a good bit of rain over the last several days. I'm going to update with pictures of the drought-stressed areas.

I've got brown patch hitting pretty hard in the backyard. When the fence was installed earlier this year, I wondered if the restricted airflow might increase chances of disease. The fence helped to maintain the color of the backyard-very well, in fact-but there has definitely been a trade off. If the patch kills the fescue, I can only ask that it takes some of the Bermuda too.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> If the patch kills the fescue, I can only ask that it takes some of the Bermuda too.


 Amen!


----------



## Green

Good luck with the Bermuda. Battling Triv is similar. I am so glad people haven't started planting the cold tolerant Bermuda up here yet. We do have Zoysia up here, though. My neighbor has some in his yard and swears at it. I gave him some Tenacity last year and told him it might help. It's only a matter of time though until Bermuda is used up here with the temps warming. I was actually thinking of experimenting with it someday. But I know that would be opening a can of worms.


----------



## Green

Also, I've heard people say fescues don't go dormant and just die, but I don't believe that. See my reply in the dormancy thread about my neighbor's lawn last year. Also, I hear transition zone pros like GCI and Grassfactor talk about dormancy.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Also, I've heard people say fescues don't go dormant and just die, but I don't believe that.


You should take a look at this series of stellar posts by j4c11
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=657&p=12294&hilit=dormancy+fescue#p12294

But, for the sake of curiosity, if fescue can go dormant in the summer and then recover with minimal losses in the fall, I wonder if dormant fescue is susceptible to brown patch. I also wonder if dormant fescue would be immune to glyphosate (while I spray the life out of the bermuda). Would it, then, actually be advantageous, in some respects, to let the fescue go dormant in the summer?



Green said:


> cold tolerant Bermuda up here yet.


Haven't heard about this. I'm not sure that I won't to hear about this. 


Green said:


> I was actually thinking of experimenting with it someday. But I know that would be opening a can of worms.


Bermuda can look great. I've been convinced of that since I joined the forum. Some of the best looking lawns on the forum are bermuda lawns. No debate there. But bermuda isn't great when you are not trying to grow it. It is a serious problem.
In my experience, if you experiment with bermuda, it will eventually experiment with you. And then it will not go away. No matter what.
You can grow it in a pot, but don't invite it into your lawn--unless you are ready to commit to a bermuda lawn. Bermuda does not play. Not even a little bit.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> If the patch kills the fescue, I can only ask that it takes some of the Bermuda too.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen!
Click to expand...

 :thumbup: 
yes, somehow that would be a tragic victory for the fescue.


----------



## Green

Those posts are along the same lines. The trick is probably not let it get 100% brown for long. That's my guess, but I'd like to see actual data someday.


----------



## Green

Well, here's something: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5698279/


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Well, here's something: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5698279/


If I interpret correctly, this suggests that dormancy might actually be prevented if the plant is kept from producing seeds; surely I am reading that incorrectly.


----------



## social port

We've had some brief showers over the last several days, and he temps are below 90 right now, so I was hoping to mow today; but alas, I got sidetracked.
I do need to mow, though. Annual rye seedheads are getting really high.
Noticing even more weeds, including crabgrass. With as thick as my turf is, I was expecting more from the preM. I am not impressed with it. I am making a note to consider an alternative for next year-perhaps liquid.

I hit the evergrowing Bermuda in the side yard with glyphosate on Friday. I'm going to switch strategies for the rest of the summer and mix the glyphosate with AS to send more of it to the root system. I'm also going to pair the glyphosate with Ornamec.

I took some pictures of the areas I tried to recover from drought stress. These were made today, after considerable rainfall this week. Of course, I applied humic and kelp and baby shampoo to these areas on 6/21.

After

Before


After

Before


After

Before


Note: I've edited this post to include before-and-after pictures


----------



## pennstater2005

What's the stuff in the last picture on either side?


----------



## social port

Hey, @pennstater2005 . I assume that you mean the light green stuff?
Say hello to ky31, the main mistake of my reno. I should have killed it, but I got sentimental because it was the only 'good' grass I had at the time of the reno.
Looks horrible, especially when overgrown, as it is now.

I've been on the fence about whether to simply overseed it or kill it this year. Right now I am leaning towards killing it.


----------



## g-man

social port said:


> With as thick as my turf is, I was expecting more from the preM. I am not impressed with it. I am making a note to consider an alternative for next year-perhaps liquid.


What was your prem and what rate? What weeds are you seeing that were not controlled?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> With as thick as my turf is, I was expecting more from the preM. I am not impressed with it. I am making a note to consider an alternative for next year-perhaps liquid.
> 
> 
> 
> What was your prem and what rate? What weeds are you seeing that were not controlled?
Click to expand...

granular dithiopyr .27% at 2.75 lbs of product/k
Black medic, crabgrass.

I also have other pests that may not be controlled by dithiopyr:
a good bit of clover
a ton of annual ryegrass
Narrow lead plantain


----------



## social port

I also forgot to mention: I miss these days, not even two months ago



I saw it as I was looking for older photos.
When the fall comes, I'm going to revel in every moment of mowing.


----------



## g-man

That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate. That's low. This study from Purdue found a 51% control of crabgrass at that rate (treatment 12 https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2011/PDF/15_AGRY_Patton_sequential%20apps.pdf)

I think annual ryegrass needs a prem barrier to prevent the annual cycle to continue.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate. That's low. This study from Purdue found a 51% control of crabgrass at that rate (treatment 12 https://turf.purdue.edu/report/2011/PDF/15_AGRY_Patton_sequential%20apps.pdf)
> 
> I think annual ryegrass needs a prem barrier to prevent the annual cycle to continue.


I got swept down a conversion rabbit hole, so I'll take your word for it 

Hmm...that is unexpected though. That application rate was suggested by two sources: 1) it was developed in a troubleshooting thread on the forum and 2) happened to be consistent with the higher end of the suggested rate on the product's label.

Do you think I should shoot for a higher rate next year?

My poor neighbor used the same stuff at the same rate. His lawn was very thin at the time. Now it is a weed party.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate.





social port said:


> Do you think I should shoot for a higher rate next year?


Actually, I should be applying at TWICE the rate I used.
I wonder why the recommendations were so discrepant from the effective rate (the full rate in the study).


----------



## pennstater2005

Ahhh....ky31. Forgot about that.


----------



## social port

social port said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think I should shoot for a higher rate next year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, I should be applying at TWICE the rate I used.
> I wonder why the recommendations were so discrepant from the effective rate (the full rate in the study).
Click to expand...

@g-man so, I pretty well know the answer to this already, but I'm going to ask anyway:
Given the weak app of PreM, is there anything I can do at this point other than post-M? I'm nervous about what may be lurking under the canopy (saw three dallisgrass plants today) and would like to head off new weed growth, but I also need to reseed in September.


----------



## social port

Mowed the front yard today. Saw a new patch of bermuda there as well as some dallisgrass. I also saw new areas of brown patch.
I started to mow the backyard; two passes in, and I ran out of gas. The moment I got off the Gravely, it started to rain. Had to push the Gravely back into the garage through thick, tall grass. It was a cardio workout. 
Going to try to finish mowing tomorrow. I'm also going to try to get some MOP on the front yard in the morning.


----------



## social port

And then I received a delivery today.





Wha, wha, wha, what?
Oh yeah, I'm not minding the pitiful state of the lawn at the moment.
Because that, ladies and gentlemen, is the finest of them all: Kentucky Bluegrass. 
Award, NuGlade, and Mazama. Courtesy of the generosity and good will of @LawnNerd . Thank you.

I'm excited at the moment.
I know about sprout and pout, but I'm not even concerned about it right now.
Bluegrass!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Ahhh....ky31. Forgot about that.


@pennstater2005 It's got to go. I'm sold on killing it.
It grows just fine in heat and drought, whereas my TTTF barely grows at all. It makes for a very uneven look, in terms of height and color.


----------



## g-man

@social port just post treat.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think I should shoot for a higher rate next year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, I should be applying at TWICE the rate I used.
> I wonder why the recommendations were so discrepant from the effective rate (the full rate in the study).
Click to expand...

That's weird, as those are ballpark standard rates mentioned for granular on the bag.


----------



## Green

pennstater2005 said:


> Ahhh....ky31. Forgot about that.


Yeah, a great grass if used right. Doesn't mix too well, though. The drought tolerance of it is amazing for cool-season grass, though...despite the high ET rate. Must be the strong roots and stiff blade.


----------



## g-man

Purdue did the study 3 or more years in a row. While each year had a different profile due to weather, the results were clear in the total qty vs % of control.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh....ky31. Forgot about that.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, a great grass if used right. Doesn't mix too well, though. The drought tolerance of it is amazing for cool-season grass, though...despite the high ET rate. Must be the strong roots and stiff blade.
Click to expand...

I think the ky31 looks nice--particularly the kind I have. However, it does not make for a nice bedfellow with the TTTF. It has a poor appearance. It would be different if I had only k31. I might even use some iron to darken it a little.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's ~0.25lb ai/acre rate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think I should shoot for a higher rate next year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, I should be applying at TWICE the rate I used.
> I wonder why the recommendations were so discrepant from the effective rate (the full rate in the study).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's weird, as those are ballpark standard rates mentioned for granular on the bag.
Click to expand...

It is weird. I really don't understand.



g-man said:


> Purdue did the study 3 or more years in a row. While each year had a different profile due to weather, the results were clear in the total qty vs % of control.


So on the one hand, there is evidence that higher rates produce the best results. On the other hand, recommended label rates suggest half of the rate found to be most effective.

I wonder why more people aren't complaining about granular dithiopyr? I've even got some dallisgrass making an appearance. Perhaps I just got a 'bad' bag. At this point I've decided to try the Lesco brand the next time I'm up for application.


----------



## social port

Mowed the backyard and side yard today. Brown patch has hit pretty hard back there, but I took a picture anyway. Still need to trim the fence line.



So, I'm still learning how to maintain the lawn now that the fence has been installed. I've noticed that the backyard stays very green, presumably because the fence provides some shade and helps the soil hang on to water.
For next summer I plan to irrigate only the middle section of the backyard. My suspicion is that the areas close to the fence will be just fine without the added water. In the process, perhaps I can avoid brown patch.

This fall, I would really like to focus on the front yard. I want to kill off the ky 31 and work on smoothing out the dirt. The goal would be to get the front yard as nice as possible, while worrying less about the state of perfection in other parts of the lawn. That being said, I'm going to have a pretty substantial seeding to do in the side yard after Bermuda season is done. And I'm also going to be growing some bluegrass. I suppose I'm still trying to find the optimal strategy and balance.

I mentioned spraying baby shampoo, kelp, and humic on certain parts of my lawn. In my opinion, those applications did not do much for improving the slopes. However, there were other parts of the lawn that were struggling-perhaps due to poor soil. This is especially the case for part of my front yard. These 'poor soil' areas also received the mix mentioned above, in addition to worm casings. I don't know how obvious it is, but it appears to me that these areas look considerably better. The grass is greener and looks healthier than before. I don't know what is responsible for the change, but for me, I'm willing to do a rinse and repeat.

If I get a chance tomorrow, I'm going to take some photos to update the status of the lawn during summer. And if I can get out of bed, I'm going to put down some MOP on the front yard. I also picked up some of that half-off irionite at Lowe's. I can put some of that down as well. Should be fun if I can get everything in.


----------



## Budstl

Some nice looking stripes dude! Fall is around the corner. Is your backyard pretty much square? You should be able to pit down some nice checkered or diamond stripes.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Some nice looking stripes dude! Fall is around the corner. Is your backyard pretty much square? You should be able to pit down some nice checkered or diamond stripes.


Thanks. The funny thing is that I did not even use a striper this time (I've had several mostly unsuccessful models now). I think that the grass striped a bit this time because it was slightly damp under the canopy.

And yes, it is a partial square in the backyard. I've already tried the checkered pattern to practice a bit. It's going to look so good this fall :nod:


----------



## social port

So, I overslept by nearly two hours this morning. I was up late reading TLF posts  
I was still able to do all that I planned: applied ironite to the front yard at label rate; applied MOP to the front yard at about .5 lb/k; and distributed worm castings at select locations in the lawn.

I'm posting update pictures of the whole lawn. It is taking a beating between brown patch and areas of Bermuda now crisped from glyphosate.
I'm not posting comparison pictures from early and late spring. That would just be painful.

7/4/18

Front yard







Side yard (street side)









Side yard (neighbor side)



Backyard









Now it is time to kill some more Bermuda and look forward to fall. It is also a good time to develop a survival plan for next summer.


----------



## pennstater2005

I still see your nice TTTF lawn in there @social port. It's just waiting for cooler weather! I can't believe you've had such an issue with the bermuda.


----------



## social port

Thank you, @pennstater2005 ! 
I'm really going to do my best to make it shine this fall. I've got to get as much of that bermuda as I can in the meantime and make whatever sacrifices are necessary.


----------



## LawnNerd

Hey @social port

Glad you got that bluegrass seed. Sorry I've been a little quiet these past few weeks. New job, and a new baby. Sure does sap the time away. Supscribed to your posts so i can see this bluegrass go down!

Bermuda struggle is so real.... And yes, real not reel... Lol. (Looking at you Ware, lol) I don't think ive managed to kill anything last year. I'm going to do another season of Fusilade, but I'm holding onto hope at this point.

I'd nuke it out, but I've already go another section of yard on the schedule for this year (kill is next weekend), but if the Fusilade alone this fall doesn't really knock it down, side yard is scheduled for a 13 megaton thermonuclear destruction summer of 2019.


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd Congratulations on your baby!



LawnNerd said:


> Supscribed to your posts so i can see this bluegrass go down!


Right now I am struggling with an interest in growing the Award, NuGlade, and Mazama mix along with a midnight mono. Two different plots, of course. And purely in the interest of science...of course  
The only thing is I'm not sure that I want to sacrifice that much fescue. When push comes to shove, fescue is hard to beat.

You'll want to subscribe for the bermuda eradication as well. It is going to be serious. You really got me thinking with the fusilade-glypho mix. I explored that option a bit more in a different thread, and I have arrived at a solution of fluazifop, glyphosate, Ammonium Sulfate, and a NIS. I got all the supplies delivered today; just need to run to Lowes for some glyphosate (I am using Ornamec rather than fusilade II--the AI is the same, I believe. I may go heavy on the Ornamec rate to compensate). You may want to check this out when you have some time (haha, no such thing, I know) https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3735
This stuff may be old news to you, but in my estimation, there is some bermuda-jitsu going on in this thread.



LawnNerd said:


> a 13 megaton thermonuclear destruction


Speaking my language :thumbup:


----------



## LawnNerd

Hmm, midnight mono is not for the faint of heart any where up north, let alone Tn. Lol.

If you're not wanting to kill off the fescue, which i honestly can't argue with, have you though about potting? For a large scale pot test, maybe try an 11×9 (deep sides) cheap foil pan and put your seeds in those? Punch holes in the bottom and then see if you can find a larger like an 13x11 if the they make them and put the 11x9 inside that one. That way you can place water in the big pan and water from the bottom up so that no water gets on the blades. No worries about fungus during test. You could even do a side by side of midnight vs the mix. That'd be interesting to see since award and prosperity are child varieties of midnight. Now the mazama would lighten it up a tad, but it's such a small % i don't think it'll make a huge impact on color. Then if you dont like kbg you can toss the pans and all gone, no impacts. But, if you like it, and i KNOW you will, you've got 2 11x9 sheets of sod to drop in. And once dropped in they'll spread into and mix with the Fescue well.

I have one area thats full kbg. I love it, but not sure if a full 6500k of 100% kbg (real kbg not this hybrid stuff thats greener than ky-31) is possible yet. I'll keep it mixed with my Fescue like @ericgautier has. But Im also not killing off the pure kbg yet. Toooooo nice, just ohhhh sooo soft on the feet. I love giving it a spritz at 1 or 2 pm bare foot. Just feels good...


----------



## ericgautier

@LawnNerd my front is 5k Blueberry monostand. Honestly, maintenance has been the same as the tttf/kbg backyard. Once you get the basics down, IMO, a mono is not that much different to maintain. :thumbup:


----------



## LawnNerd

ericgautier said:


> @LawnNerd my front is 5k Blueberry monostand. Honestly, maintenance has been the same as the tttf/kbg backyard. Once you get the basics down, IMO, a mono is not that much different to maintain. :thumbup:


Ohhhh don't tell me that.... I don't need to be considering a mono stand now... Lol


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> ericgautier said:
> 
> 
> 
> @LawnNerd my front is 5k Blueberry monostand. Honestly, maintenance has been the same as the tttf/kbg backyard. Once you get the basics down, IMO, a mono is not that much different to maintain. :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> Ohhhh don't tell me that.... I don't need to be considering a mono stand now... Lol
Click to expand...

LawnNerd, join me. Extinguish the Bermuda now and do a mono. G-man can also finally do the reno that he's been longing for, and Pennstater can do the reno he had been planning AND install a pool. Done.

But in all seriousness; I get it. Having a new little person around the house limits lawn activities.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> Hmm, midnight mono is not for the faint of heart any where up north, let alone Tn. Lol.
> 
> If you're not wanting to kill off the fescue, which i honestly can't argue with, have you though about potting? For a large scale pot test, maybe try an 11×9 (deep sides) cheap foil pan and put your seeds in those? Punch holes in the bottom and then see if you can find a larger like an 13x11 if the they make them and put the 11x9 inside that one. That way you can place water in the big pan and water from the bottom up so that no water gets on the blades. No worries about fungus during test. You could even do a side by side of midnight vs the mix. That'd be interesting to see since award and prosperity are child varieties of midnight. Now the mazama would lighten it up a tad, but it's such a small % i don't think it'll make a huge impact on color. Then if you dont like kbg you can toss the pans and all gone, no impacts. But, if you like it, and i KNOW you will, you've got 2 11x9 sheets of sod to drop in. And once dropped in they'll spread into and mix with the Fescue well.
> 
> I have one area thats full kbg. I love it, but not sure if a full 6500k of 100% kbg (real kbg not this hybrid stuff thats greener than ky-31) is possible yet. I'll keep it mixed with my Fescue like @ericgautier has. But Im also not killing off the pure kbg yet. Toooooo nice, just ohhhh sooo soft on the feet. I love giving it a spritz at 1 or 2 pm bare foot. Just feels good...


I am just toying with the midnight idea right now. It wouldn't be too smart, I think; but who knows. A man wants what he wants.

You offer a nice set-up here. I really like the idea of using an extra pan.
I am nearly certain that I would love the KBG. I can't see myself getting rid of it once it is growing. I think the real question is how would it do in my soil, my climate, and in my yard-and with no fungicides. To answer that, I think planting in the ground is the way I would go; or maybe do both: in the ground and in the pots.


----------



## social port

It is spray day. Remember the opening song from Gangs of New York? That was in my head when I woke up this morning.
Here is my kill mix: I'm calling it soul stealer, but I am open to suggestions. Greendoc, Delmarva Keith, and Movingshrub helped me with the formulation.



In the event that the Bermuda isn't taken out this year, my guess is that it will ELECT not to come back to the surface after dealing with this mix during growing season. Indeed, that would be the perfect solution: the Bermuda escapes death, but chooses to grow elsewhere, thereby admitting defeat.

I'm earning my avatar today.
More to come.


----------



## pennstater2005

Dang @social port you're out for blood eh? Go get em :twisted:


----------



## social port

Yes, @pennstater2005 . Blood, body, and soul. 
I'm the Dexter Morgan of bermudagrass.


----------



## social port

I put down three applications today.

First, I tried this 'natural' weed killer recently used by Powhatan (Ecologic weed and grass killer). I sprayed about half a bottle around my patio in the backyard and on the exposed dirt next to the driveway. Powhatan's crabgrass responded to it, so I am assuming that I will get a response from it. In fact, tonight I went out, and many of the plants I sprayed are already wilting.

Second, given that temps are finally below 90, I sprayed my weed b gone plus crabgrass control. I have the concentrate. I used this as an opportunity to practice adding Ammonium Sulfate (AS) to the mix. I also added a NIS for good measure. I spot-sprayed the entire yard, though in some sections, the crabgrass was so widespread that it was closer to a blanket spray. I'm hoping that the addition of the AS will free me from needing to make another application; but we will see.

Third, I sprayed soul stealer (more on that below). There are about 10 patches of bermuda in the backyard. The front yard has three patches, along with some dallisgrass. The side yard (street side) is infested.

All told, I was spraying for about 3 hours. That includes clean-up (e.g., rinsing out).

So the soul stealer solution consists of glyphosate, fluazifop (via Ornamec), NIS, and AS. Per gallon of water, I mixed the highest label rate of glyphosate, a higher than label rate of fluazifop (This part I am winging, adding more to try to compensate for the fact that Ornamec has a much lower percentage of fluazifop than fusillade II), the label rate for NIS, and 3 ounces (powder) of AS. I had help formulating this solution from Greendoc, Delmarva Keith, and Movingshrub. I also paid attention to the order of adding chemicals to the solution, as outlined by Movingshrub here (Do check out this thread if you haven't. It is great, even for a cool season fellow). Before I put the marking dye in, the solution was milky white, almost creamy looking. The marking dye turned the whole solution Superman blue.

I had an 'ah-ha moment' last night when I went to the store to get glyphosate. I almost bought Round Up concentrate plus. But I noticed something: In addition to glyphosate, RU concentrate plus contains Diquat. Greendoc clued me in to something about Diquat. 


Greendoc said:


> Diquat is not only hazardous to handle, it is also antagonistic to herbicide activity. Diquat burns off leaves before they absorb and translocate other herbicides. QuickPro is a combination of Diquat and Glyphosate. I have had many instances of zombie weeds coming back from the dead using Quick Pro. Especially grasses such as Zoysia and Bermuda.


So, I promptly selected another product that did not list Diquat as an AI.
Note: Last summer when I was killing of the yard before my reno, guess what I used? RU concentrate plus! It makes me wonder if the Diquat is reason that so much Bermuda survived several apps of Ornamec followed by several apps of glyphosate.


----------



## social port

I hit all of the bermuda that I saw today, but one never knows what is still hiding under the fescue.
I am planning to mow again soon in an attempt to reveal more bermuda.



The X portion represents the infestation. I may need to kill everything there. I haven't measured it, but it looks to be between 600 and 900 sqft.


----------



## social port

In other news, here is before-and-after pictures of the front yard after the application of K and Ironite on 7/4. I know that I applied both products well. I know that I did due diligence in watering them in. I will say that the bag of Ironite expired in late June of this year (so, technically expired, but by less than three weeks). I will also say that much of the TTTF is minimally growing at the moment, which could have affected the results. So, in my estimation, no clear conclusions can be drawn about the value of Ironite in this instance, but I can say that I will not be using the product again in July.

Note that I did take the pictures at different times of day, so sunlight probably plays a role in appearance.

July 4th



July 8th (with some marking dye here and there)


----------



## Greendoc

Have you got any Tenacity? That will help light up any Bermuda. You only need 1/4 Teaspoon per 1000 sq ft or half of the label rate. Does not kill or compromise the Bermuda, but it will help you direct the application of "Soul Stealer". I now have a name for what I have been using on jobs where I need to destroy everything in the yard. I get rather fancy and add Triclopyr Ester and Pylex to the mix. Failure to control Bermuda and the weed known as Zoysia during a kill out becomes costly later.


----------



## social port

@Greendoc using the tenacity is a great idea. @Colonel K0rn made the same suggestion last month. 
I don't stock tenacity. But the main issue is that I thought the tenacity would be as likely to light up the fescue as the Bermuda. I'm addition, adding stress to the fescue during the heat of summer for the identification of Bermuda seems unwise. Am I wrong?

I have some triclopyr on hand (via weed b gone CCO). Should I add that to soul stealer?


----------



## social port

I took another photo of the front yard for a better measure of before and after (pictures taken closer to the same time of day).

July 4



July 9


----------



## Greendoc

social port said:


> @Greendoc using the tenacity is a great idea. @Colonel K0rn made the same suggestion last month.
> I don't stock tenacity. But the main issue is that I thought the tenacity would be as likely to light up the fescue as the Bermuda. I'm addition, adding stress to the fescue during the heat of summer for the identification of Bermuda seems unwise. Am I wrong?
> 
> I have some triclopyr on hand (via weed b gone CCO). Should I add that to soul stealer?


Tenacity should not light up the Fescue. Especially not at the 1/2 of minimum rate. Weed B Gon CCO. Put it in if you have it.


----------



## social port

thanks, @Greendoc


----------



## Greendoc

The Ortho CCO killer is safer to use at this time of the year vs Triclopyr Ester. Don't know how it happened, but I do not see any Triclopyr Amine labeled for lawn use. It is all labeled for pasture and non crop area usage.


----------



## social port

@Greendoc Highest label rate of CCO, I take it?

Also, have you ever seen mesotrione/Tenacity in granular form and not cut with Nitrogen? :lol: 
I thought I saw some one time, but I haven't been able to locate it since.
Buying granular might give me the option of buying a smaller quantity.


----------



## Greendoc

Yes. Max rate per 1000 sq ft whatever it is. I have not seen Mesotrione in granules outside of the starter fertilizers+weed control. Truth is, for its intended use as a post emergent treatment for grassy weeds, the liquid works better. Tenacity is not that expensive. I see prices of about $80 for the 8 oz unit. There was a time when the only unit sold was a gallon for almost $800.


----------



## social port

OK, I will move forward with Soul Stealer CCO.

And now that I think about it, the granular would likely not give me the coverage I need for identifying the bermuda, especially at a half rate.


----------



## Greendoc

1-2 oz Tenacity per acre will light up Bermuda and start to kill Zoysia. Does not take much. But, coverage is king. I spray from a calibrated boom 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft.


----------



## social port

We had a stretch of cooler weather last week (80s) and lower humidity. Also had some light rain. My grass shot up quickly. So, I had to mow yesterday. I noticed new dallisgrass plants in the front yard. I have killed some of it already, but there are new plants that I need to hit the next time I am out with the sprayer. I saw no new bermuda growth while mowing. The spots that I hit with soul stealer look obliterated.

I have had a nice response from my WBG+NIS+AS app. The crabgrass looks like it might survive at this point, though it sure is wilting.

I have several N ext products now and plan to use AIR-8 ASAP. I wanted to use it several days ago, but things have been too busy.

We finally got back to staining the sidewalk and driveway. I spent a lot of yesterday prepping the area, and I spent about 3-4 hours today applying a final coat. This project should now be done.









Plans going forward:
Hit weeds/crabgrass with one more app
Hit Bermuda and dallisgrass with soul stealer CCO 
Apply N ext products, especially Air-8, perhaps others more sparingly
Order seeds
Outline steps for killing KY 31
Prep for KBG


----------



## Budstl

Kbg prep :thumbup: walkway looks great.


----------



## social port

Thanks @Budstl
Looking forward to the KBG


----------



## pennstater2005

Looks great @social port! What does prep for KBG mean? You're going to over seed? Did I miss that somewhere in this thread :dunno:


----------



## social port

Hey, @pennstater2005

I am overseeding with TTTF this year, and I will also have some bare areas from killing Bermuda and KY 31.

But, as a side project, I am also going to try KBG from bare soil-about 1k. The plan right now is to spilt the area up, having 500 sq ft on both sides of patio in backyard. I had originally planned to kill some TTTF to create a space for the KBG, but I think I may buy a flat shovel to try to transplant some of the tttf to new areas.

I am also considering putting in the KBG where the KY 31 is right now. That area will be bare anyway from killing the KY31. Not sure yet


----------



## pennstater2005

That's cool. The KBG will will give you some fill in ability. I've noticed that mine self repairs into bare areas. I wish I would've done all KBG and left the PRG out.


----------



## social port

Yeah, with its spreading ability, I've thought about putting it beside the "weed field" that is behind my back yard. It would pit KBG against Bermuda encroachment. Proabaly not my best idea, though. Besides, if the Bermuda broke through, I would have to kill the KBG in the process of killing the Bermuda. I don't have the stomach for that.


----------



## social port

Applied air-8 on 7/17 to the parts of the lawn that had heavy equipment run on it this spring.

Hit weeds today with a combo of WBG plus crabgrass control, WBG CCO, and AS.

Hit Bermuda today with soul stealer plus CCO. Did see some new Bermuda patches. Also found some nimblewill. Tried to hit dallisgrass as well, but it was harder to pinpoint. I may dig some of it up if I missed some today. 
The Bermuda that has already had a treatment of soul stealer looks like straw.


----------



## LawnNerd

@social port Grab a pic of that devil weed that has had it's soul taken away forever, please?

It's Monday morning, I could use a pick-me-up!


----------



## pennstater2005

It's working on the Bermuda then?


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 no doubt about it. The question remaining is if and when it will recover. 
But right now, the destruction is so pronounced that, in another universe, I could be arrested for crimes against Bermuda.









Can you even tell that this was once bermuda? It is almost beyond recognition.

Let me also say, speaking as supreme Chancellor of my lawn, that I strongly oppose all manner of blue-muda and fescuda

And now, for the creme de la creme


Dedicated to the betterment of Monday mornings for cool season devotees everywhere.


----------



## pennstater2005

It looks like it's dying at least!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> It looks like it's dying at least!


It has a month and a half (maybe more) left for growing season. I will continue to hit as needed, along with new growth.


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> No doubt about it. The question remaining is if and when it will recover.
> But right now, the destruction is so pronounced that, in another universe, I could be arrested for crimes against Bermuda












This Post makes me happy!


----------



## social port

The lawn is looking less stressed with lower temps and humidity over the last two weeks or so. I should have mowed last weekend. I was really overgrown.

Double mowed the back and front yard today. Going to mow the side tomorrow. Trimmed around the fence, house, and AC unit.

Pulled enough dallisgrass to fill half of a garbage bag. My neighbor has dallisgrass spreading like fire and it has been encroaching in my lawn for several weeks. It is getting bad. 
I am oscillating between digging all of it up vs glyphosate. After searching the forum earlier this afternoon, those seem like the best options. 
I'm going to lose a lot of fescue in the process, no matter which route I take.

Radio silence on the Bermuda front. I believe that I have led it to an existential crisis of belonging in the world (or at least my lawn).


----------



## social port

Finished mowing the side yard yesterday as well as cleaning up the perimeter of the lawn with my trimmer.

What do you do when you have brown patch and a quarter of your lawn is dead because you are killing Bermuda? Put down some stripes, of course.



That's not from a striper. I made 3 passes to chop up all of the clippings, and then I did a few more.

I also started watering my slopes yesterday. I'm finishing them up this morning-about an hour and a half with an impact sprinkler.

I found a clearance priced oscillating sprinkler at TSC yesterday. It was rated for 4100sq ft. I thought it would be perfect for the side yard. Turns out that the sprinkler covers closer to 3k (at least with my water pressure), but it is an ok addition to my collection.


----------



## LawnNerd

I discovered long ago that the square footage labeled on a sprinkler is a lie. I've also ditched the Impact Sprinklers, just way way to slow to put down enough water. I upgraded this year to MP rotators on spike bases. Depending on spray pattern, GPM from spigot, and PSI you can definitely daisy chain 2, and some people can get 3.

Rotator is $5 a pop, sprayer body is another $5. Spike base is $2-$4 a piece (depending on sales or model). I went with the 2000's as that worked best for me with regards to GPM flow. The biggest thing i liked about them is the even distribution of the water. Impacts and fan (oscillating?) are very uneven i their distribution of water.

They water slow, but boy do they really soak that water in well. On my slop and sun baked clay, they work better than my impacts ever did. Plus they'll be really gentle on the peat moss covering the seed i'm laying out here soon.

Check out @ryanknorr's youtube channel. He talks about them and shows them in action. (PS, i think he's got atleast 4 on 180 degrees running at once!)


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port Definitely looks less stressed!


----------



## social port

Ok, @LawnNerd , you've got me thinking. Almost everyone has advised me to ditch the impacts. Why haven't I? Because they are convenient to set up, and they seem to put out so much water. But I have been assuming that moving an impact sprinkler or two around three times over the course of four hours would be preferable to setting up a more elaborate sprinkler arrangement. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.

I've got a good number of those orbit gear drive sprinklers. I could use those going forward, only I'll need to hook up a bunch of hoses and then put them away each time I water. But that may not matter so much if I am not have to move a sprinkler around every 80 minutes.

I'm familiar with the MPs, as I've seen that Ryan Knorr video a good number of times. Maybe I'll replace the orbits as they give out over time. :nod:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port Definitely looks less stressed!


I know! Even with all of hose dead areas. The temps have been mostly high 80s for a couple of weeks now, so the grass is much happier.

For me, only August is left. Then, I am going to do everything I can to get this lawn to the next level-not tier 3, but maybe 2.5


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> Ok, @LawnNerd , you've got me thinking. Almost everyone has advised me to ditch the impacts. Why haven't I? Because they are convenient to set up, and they seem to put out so much water. But I have been assuming that moving an impact sprinkler or two around three times over the course of four hours would be preferable to setting up a more elaborate sprinkler arrangement. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.
> 
> I've got a good number of those orbit gear drive sprinklers. I could use those going forward, only I'll need to hook up a bunch of hoses and then put them away each time I water. But that may not matter so much if I am not have to move a sprinkler around every 80 minutes.
> 
> I'm familiar with the MPs, as I've seen that Ryan Knorr video a good number of times. Maybe I'll replace the orbits as they give out over time. :nod:


I had some of those as well. Took the gear drives off and used the spiked bases for my Rotators. HE HE.

You'd be surprised at how much the impacts are not even. Do a test. put a tuna can in the middle of that spray... I did it, and ran the impact for 2 hours. Had less than 1/4 an inch in the middle of the spray pattern. Not saying they don't pump out water, it's just very uneven.

Ran 2 Rotators in line (head to head spacing as well) for 2 hours, and i had 1" of water in the middle of the spray.

I've got mine setup with a melnor 4 zone time (not the rain cloud one, but i want it). I set up 3 zones (each zone runs for 2 hours, and i start at 4am. I won't water past 10am) i then set the timer and let it do it's thing in the AM. Then rinse and repeat the next day till i water all areas.


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd so, do you use the same set of sprinklers and hoses for each zone (meaning, do you move your sprinklers and hoses from from zone 1 to zone 2 after watering zone 1 on a given day)?

Also, does the preM barrier ever cross your mind when you are sticking the spikes into the ground? Any concern that you might be disrupting it?


----------



## g-man

Dont worry about the spikes in the soil. It won't cause any issues with your prem.


----------



## LawnNerd

No, i setup up the 3 "zones" as i call them the night before.

And no, Pre-m barrier doesn't come to mind. I basically have my spots where i know i need to place the sprinkler to reach the next sprinkler. So week to week they end up in the same spot give or take a few inches. I've not noticed any weeds in these areas.


----------



## social port

I'm falling behind on the lawn. I need to mow, and I need to apply air-8, d-thatch, and RGS. I'm hoping to do all of that by Saturday. 
I also need to start thinking about the KBG. LawnNerd seeded his KBG August 8th last year, I believe. That is going to be a little early for me, but not by much, as I want to give it plenty of time to grow before Winter

Time to order seed. I already have the KBG blend--nearly one pound. I need to double-check my measurements, but I believe I will have enough space to run Midnight as well. If so, I am going to get a pound of Midnight, hopefully delivered by the middle of this month--then down IN the ground as soon as possible after it arrives.

For my fescue, I'm ordering Cochise IV and Raptor III. I may add Leonardo. The latter two will be novel additions to my yard.

I'm ordering a pro plugger to help me replace some of the KY31 in the front yard with the TTTF from the backyard.

For getting rid of the KY31, I'm planning to use the pro plugger to pull most of it up, followed by a round of glyphosate + AS to hit anything I may have missed. I haven't used this method before, but it seems sound.

Getting ready to hit the ground running.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port Good luck with the KBG! The pro plugger is the one tool I have that I don't utilize nearly enough. Where's the seed from?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port Good luck with the KBG! The pro plugger is the one tool I have that I don't utilize nearly enough. Where's the seed from?


Hogan the great! For both fescue and midnight.

I just measured, and I have enough space. Midnight is a go. :mrgreen:


----------



## Budstl

social port said:


> I'm falling behind on the lawn. I need to mow, and I need to apply air-8, d-thatch, and RGS. I'm hoping to do all of that by Saturday.
> I also need to start thinking about the KBG. LawnNerd seeded his KBG August 8th last year, I believe. That is going to be a little early for me, but not by much, as I want to give it plenty of time to grow before Winter


I seeded kbg aug 26th last year. Shooting for the 25th this year. You should be good around that time frame.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm falling behind on the lawn. I need to mow, and I need to apply air-8, d-thatch, and RGS. I'm hoping to do all of that by Saturday.
> I also need to start thinking about the KBG. LawnNerd seeded his KBG August 8th last year, I believe. That is going to be a little early for me, but not by much, as I want to give it plenty of time to grow before Winter
> 
> 
> 
> I seeded kbg aug 26th last year. Shooting for the 25th this year. You should be good around that time frame.
Click to expand...

Thanks, @Budstl :thumbup: 
That's probably when I'll shoot for, then, unless mother nature convinces me otherwise. Seems like these endeavors invariably involve an audible.
It is usually still really hot here in late August, but the sooner I can get the KBG established, the better. I'll definitely be paying attention to what happens with your efforts this season as well.


----------



## Budstl

@social port i hear ya dude. Transition zone weather can be crazy. Never know whats going to happen.


----------



## social port

OK, so I am still running behind, as I've had no free time this week. I made up for that some today, spending about 7 hours in the lawn.
That is what we call a good day!

Experimented with layout for sprinklers in side yard. Thinking about using 1 inch pvc cl200 pipe instead of hoses. This will be a long-term endeavor, and I need to keep reading and experimenting. As of right now, I am not sure how I am going to get full coverage for my entire lawn during my reseed next month. I think I am going to have to buy more sprinklers.

Got my Pro Plugger. Spent hours pulling up dallisgrass. The plugger works exceptionally well, but after experiencing the time and energy commitment today, I am thinking that I am not going to be able to use the plugger to take up all of the KY31 and all of the TTTF that needs to be removed for the KBG seeding. I'm very close to saying, "time for glyphosate."

Does anyone happen to know what one should do with the 4 inch hole in the ground left by the pro plugger? Is it OK to just leave it open? I am concerned about the ground becoming less level over time.

Mowed the whole yard with double passes to make sure that larger pieces of cut grass were sized down adequately.

Saw some new shoots of bermuda, and I saw what may be signs of recovery in a patch already hit with soul stealer. I'm nearly at a month using soul stealer. I'm going to water the areas heavily for a day or two and then use one more app of soul stealer. Thereafter, I'll need to cut the Ornamec due to seeding intervals.


----------



## social port

Look at this guy coming up



Here is where I see possible signs of recovery. I don't know much about plant death, but I do know that this is the first time I've noticed any color in weeks (you may have to zoom in on the darker brown section of the 'stalk')







Here are some of the plugs. I wonder if there is a difference between using a pro plugger and core aeration


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port As far as the pro plugger holes go usually I'm putting into a bare area so I take the bare area plug and put into the other hole. But, in your case you are taking up a weedy area and probably don't want to use those. I would consider a bag of topsoil to fill them in.

Is that bermuda still hanging on?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port As far as the pro plugger holes go usually I'm putting into a bare area so I take the bare area plug and put into the other hole. But, in your case you are taking up a weedy area and probably don't want to use those. I would consider a bag of topsoil to fill them in.
> 
> Is that bermuda still hanging on?


thanks, @pennstater. So, you are leaving no holes. Then I should probably do the same. I do have two garbage cans full of dirt. I could also try a few TTTF plugs. Maybe I will plug up holes I have already made and glyph the rest...still thinking through things.

Oh, and the bermuda: I have new growth, but nothing I've hit with soul stealer cco has recovered. I am now seeing some color variation in a previously sprayed stolon or two; not sure if it is trying to come back or just the soul leaving the body :twisted:


----------



## social port

Worked on a sprinkler layout in the side yard. Watered drought-stressed areas. Probably need to do the same tomorrow.

Continued using the pro plugger. Took 20 TTTF plugs and planted them in the front yard. Here's my verdict: The plugger did not work well for me. Almost all of my fescue got cut/mangled from the plugger. This tool may work better for grasses that grow laterally. Not sure...but it sure looks like this effort was unsuccessful.

So, I filled all of the holes left by the plugger with dirt from my supply. I also began filling in low spots in the yard with my dirt supply. I used a 'scoop and fling' method I saw on a LawnTips video.

And...the difficult part. For the KBG grow, I need about 1k of TTTF gone from my backyard. And over the past two days, I've learned that plugging isn't an option. I don't have time to look into using a sod cutter. So, you know exactly what is left. And you know exactly what I did. All with 'She's leaving home,' by the Beatles, playing in my head :crying:


----------



## social port

Man, the cool season lawn journal threads have been booming! I think that we are officially in grass season :smile:

I applied d-thatch today at 9oz/k and air-8 at 9oz/k. It took forever using a hose-end sprayer (I had to refill over 10 times during the course of the two apps). I have also noticed considerable inconsistency in the ratio of water and product when using the hose-end sprayer. Would it be ridiculous to buy a backpack sprayer dedicated to non-herbicidal products?

Also did a trial run for my sprinkler set-up for the KBG grow. I've got nice, even coverage.

Also pieced together pvc pipe (schedule 40) to be used as an alternative to hoses. I'm using 1 inch pipe. I'm going to compare sprays between my Orbit gear drive sprinklers using my 5/8 hose vs the 1 inch pvc pipe.


----------



## social port

I'm starting to notice discoloration in the TTTF that was hit with glyphosate for the KBG grow.

I watered the side yard heavily today to try to get more Bermuda to grow. My fescue needed water there as well, especially close to the road. We also had a nice rain. Nice, because it's been hot and dry.

I've seen new shoots of Bermuda. It's about time to make a final app of soul stealer.

Planning to order seeds tomorrow or ASAP.

I can't say that I've seen much color pop from the d-thatch and air-8 I applied on Tuesday.


----------



## social port

Also, I need to tweak my sprinkler set-up a bit for the KBG grow. I'm growing close to the house, so excess water at the house foundation is a concern. I need to move the sprinklers farther away from the house while maximizing coverage.


----------



## LawnNerd

In the first few weeks, Or month for KBG, you shouldn't be putting that much water down. Just the top 1" or 2" need to be damp. This shouldn't be a concern for the foundation.


----------



## pennstater2005

Get that seed ordered! You're making me consider TTTF mix with KBG for next falls reno instead of PRG.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> In the first few weeks, Or month for KBG, you shouldn't be putting that much water down. Just the top 1" or 2" need to be damp. This shouldn't be a concern for the foundation.


Roger that. 
I've been reading irrigationtutorials and just got done with the section on expansive soils. It scared me to death :lol: ... "Uhh, Honey, ehh...sorry I made our house crumble because I was trying to grow grass" :lol:

LawnNerd, the areas are close to the house and the soil tends to remain somewhat moist there. I'm planning for 3x per day, perhaps 10 minutes each time. I will trial with that and then tweak accordingly.



pennstater2005 said:


> Get that seed ordered! You're making me consider TTTF mix with KBG for next falls reno instead of PRG.


I know, Man. Hogan thought that the Midnight would arrive at their store today. I'm going to call to check. :mrgreen:

TTTF is hard to beat. You do have to worry about brown patch and reseeding, but I absolutely love top TTTF cultivars. I'll try to provide some nice comparison pictures between the two stands. Of course, the midnight won't be up to full color until, when, next year about this time...maybe longer?


----------



## social port

social port said:


> You do have to worry about brown patch and reseeding,


But, then again :lol: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5128


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> You do have to worry about brown patch and reseeding,
> 
> 
> 
> But, then again :lol: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5128
Click to expand...

 :lol: Glad to see both sides though.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Get that seed ordered!


It's done. I've called the Hogan Company about 5 times in total. I believe that today is the first time I've spoken with Bob. Luck of the draw. 45-minute conversation.

100 lb mix of Cochise IV and Raptor III.
2 lbs of Midnight.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get that seed ordered!
> 
> 
> 
> It's done. I've called the Hogan Company about 5 times in total. I believe that today is the first time I've spoken with Bob. Luck of the draw. 45-minute conversation.
> 
> 100 lb mix of Cochise IV and Raptor III.
> 2 lbs of Midnight.
Click to expand...

Damn! About time :lol:

They're pretty good to deal with huh?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get that seed ordered!
> 
> 
> 
> It's done. I've called the Hogan Company about 5 times in total. I believe that today is the first time I've spoken with Bob. Luck of the draw. 45-minute conversation.
> 
> 100 lb mix of Cochise IV and Raptor III.
> 2 lbs of Midnight.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Damn! About time :lol:
> 
> They're pretty good to deal with huh?
Click to expand...

I like them. They're relatively local for me. 
And I used them last year. There are plenty of other excellent options for seed, but I'm loyal.


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Get that seed ordered!
> 
> 
> 
> It's done. I've called the Hogan Company about 5 times in total. I believe that today is the first time I've spoken with Bob. Luck of the draw. 45-minute conversation.
> 
> 100 lb mix of Cochise IV and Raptor III.
> 2 lbs of Midnight.
Click to expand...

Yep... Bob will talk your ear off! He's a great guy tho, and i enjoyed my conversation with him.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> i enjoyed my conversation with him


Yes, and I opened up my ears about as wide as they would go. He convinced me to use a pull-behind dethatcher for the overseed this year.
I am addressing dead grass and thatch with d-thatch. The pull-behind dethatcher is just for roughing the soil up a bit. I've been stressing a little bit on that part of my plan on seeding day. I'm liking t/his strategy. The pull-behind will be gentler than the dethatching machine that I ran last year.


----------



## LawnNerd

Yea. I agree. You don't want the seeds sitting in the thatch. They'll struggle to tack down or may not even germinate properly. Plus, like he said, it'll rough up that soil and create a nice little bed for the seed.


----------



## social port

Soul stealer CCO app today to side yard and backyard.
I went hunting for new growth. Found quite a bit-probably 12 new patches. And if the fescue looked a little funny, I hit it too, just in case 

Today was the first time that I noticed new growth in areas I've already hit. There were about 3 patches that had new growth. I did a number of glyphosate-only apps before transitioning to soul stealer CCO. It is entirely possible that the patches with new growth were from the glyph-only part of my Bermuda intervention. That being said, I am not really expecting soul stealer CCO to be a one-and-done solution. It looks like I will have time for one more full strength app before seeding.

I also hit the ky31 areas to be renovated with glyphosate and AS. 
This picture does not show the full area, but some of it is visible. I ran out of marking dye, so all areas hit are not blue. 
I've hit a few of those areas already, mainly in an effort to kill dallisgrass. That is why some areas are already brown.





The area for the KBG reno/experiment is also starting to look toasty.


----------



## pennstater2005

That is looking toasty! I can't spray without marking dye anymore. I'd end up hitting areas twice and stuff would die.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That is looking toasty! I can't spray without marking dye anymore. I'd end up hitting areas twice and stuff would die.


Absolutely! I think marker dye is just a good practice, especially if you are spraying a large yard. 
I only winged it this time because I had to mix one extra gallon that I had not anticipated. And I was bound and determined to get the first glyph app down for the entire reno area today.

I just ordered more dye via the TLF Amazon link


----------



## Green

How much dye do you use? Any time I've tried it, I could barely see it.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> How much dye do you use? Any time I've tried it, I could barely see it.


I eyeball it, putting, at a minimum, enough to turn my solution a nice blue in the tank. It really doesn't take much. 1-2 tablespoons per gallon?? I'm not sure.

I think that brand selection may be the key for you. I've tried several brands. Some are much better than others.

Give this one a try. 
https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Harvest-Concentrated-Pattern-Indicator/dp/B01G7M309M/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1534075698&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=marker+dye&dpPl=1&dpID=41wg9ZNsL%2BL&ref=plSrch


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> How much dye do you use? Any time I've tried it, I could barely see it.
> 
> 
> 
> I eyeball it, putting, at a minimum, enough to turn my solution a nice blue in the tank. It really doesn't take much. 1-2 tablespoons per gallon?? I'm not sure.
> 
> I think that brand selection may be the key for you. I've tried several brands. Some are much better than others.
> 
> Give this one a try.
> https://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Harvest-Concentrated-Pattern-Indicator/dp/B01G7M309M/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1534075698&sr=8-3&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=marker+dye&dpPl=1&dpID=41wg9ZNsL%2BL&ref=plSrch
Click to expand...

I dump and then dump some more. I've found that with marker dye less is not more. And the recommended amount is not enough.


----------



## LawnNerd

Same here. I always just dump a bunch in there till i can't see the bottom. Works fors me.


----------



## social port

Slung dirt from my dirt supply into the backyard and front yard. 
Cleaned the underside of the deck on the Gravely and also sharpened the blades-all while listening to the grass factor's live stream from last week  . I wish I had a better way of checking blade balance. I currently check blade balance by placing the blade on a thin screwdriver held by a vice grip.

Getting pretty excited about seeing 1k of dead grass! I see possibility, hard work, and a chance to get better at my craft.
Dang! Almost makes me wish I was doing a larger renovation.


----------



## iowa jim

Are you kidding me, i just did 12000k yesterday and i can hardly move this mouse around. signed exhausted in iowa.


----------



## social port

iowa jim said:


> Are you kidding me, i just did 12000k yesterday and i can hardly move this mouse around. signed exhausted in iowa.


 :lol: 
You are totally right! On day # 3 of my reno last year, I remember walking around the yard saying, "Never again!"

My opposition didn't last long!


----------



## social port

Mowed the yard today. Single cut only. Freshly sharpened blades can make your day.

Backyard, including the midnight section of the reno area



Here's some Bermuda that I hit with soul stealer CCO on 8/11.



Also finished comparing my orbit gear drive sprinklers with one inch pvc vs 5/8 garden hose. No difference in distance! Both coming in around 28 ft.


----------



## social port

Here's a #pisseroffer in the KBG reno area.

Discharge from the air conditioner is routed into this drain hose. It stays wet here and, of course, the grass struggles. 

I don't have to fix this issue right now, but it is a good time to do so. Is a French drain the best thing to do here? Any other ideas?


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, @LawnNerd , you've got me thinking. Almost everyone has advised me to ditch the impacts. Why haven't I? Because they are convenient to set up, and they seem to put out so much water. But I have been assuming that moving an impact sprinkler or two around three times over the course of four hours would be preferable to setting up a more elaborate sprinkler arrangement. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.
> 
> I've got a good number of those orbit gear drive sprinklers. I could use those going forward, only I'll need to hook up a bunch of hoses and then put them away each time I water. But that may not matter so much if I am not have to move a sprinkler around every 80 minutes.
> 
> I'm familiar with the MPs, as I've seen that Ryan Knorr video a good number of times. Maybe I'll replace the orbits as they give out over time. :nod:
> 
> 
> 
> I had some of those as well. Took the gear drives off and used the spiked bases for my Rotators. HE HE.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how much the impacts are not even. Do a test. put a tuna can in the middle of that spray... I did it, and ran the impact for 2 hours. Had less than 1/4 an inch in the middle of the spray pattern. Not saying they don't pump out water, it's just very uneven.
> 
> Ran 2 Rotators in line (head to head spacing as well) for 2 hours, and i had 1" of water in the middle of the spray.
> 
> I've got mine setup with a melnor 4 zone time (not the rain cloud one, but i want it). I set up 3 zones (each zone runs for 2 hours, and i start at 4am. I won't water past 10am) i then set the timer and let it do it's thing in the AM. Then rinse and repeat the next day till i water all areas.
Click to expand...

LawnNerd, Do you remember how you got the orbit spikes to connect to the MPs? It looks like the orbit spike takes a 1/2, whereas my (new) Hunter sprinkler is 3/4. Is there some 'nipple' to use here?


----------



## social port

Rainfall is likely over the next 3 days. I thought it would be wise to cut down the dead grass from the KBG reno area. I cut as low as I could







I'd like to expose more soil. I'm either going to put smaller wheels on my mower or run a dethatcher. Maybe both.

I don't have an exact date for seed delivery. Here's the remaining plan before KBG seed down.
Dethatch and or low mow again
Add dirt to low spots
Water heavily
Another round of glyphosate 
Use garden weasel as needed
Vacuum with mower as needed.


----------



## g-man

Run a dethatcher.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Run a dethatcher.


 Edited to clarify: 
I will dethatch. Do you think it would also be helpful to try to get a lower cut with a rotary mower? Or will dethatching suffice?


----------



## pennstater2005

I manually dethatched my area last fall. It looked just like yours above prior to doing that. It was thick and no seed was going to touch soil. In hindsight I wish I would've rented a dethatcher as it was a lot of work. I would go as low as possible with your rotary.


----------



## social port

Thanks for looking it over.

I'll do both, then. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think I used both last year.


----------



## social port

Nevermind about the sprinkler connection, @LawnNerd . I think I've found what I need right here :thumbup:


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, @LawnNerd , you've got me thinking. Almost everyone has advised me to ditch the impacts. Why haven't I? Because they are convenient to set up, and they seem to put out so much water. But I have been assuming that moving an impact sprinkler or two around three times over the course of four hours would be preferable to setting up a more elaborate sprinkler arrangement. Maybe I've been wrong this whole time.
> 
> I've got a good number of those orbit gear drive sprinklers. I could use those going forward, only I'll need to hook up a bunch of hoses and then put them away each time I water. But that may not matter so much if I am not have to move a sprinkler around every 80 minutes.
> 
> I'm familiar with the MPs, as I've seen that Ryan Knorr video a good number of times. Maybe I'll replace the orbits as they give out over time. :nod:
> 
> 
> 
> I had some of those as well. Took the gear drives off and used the spiked bases for my Rotators. HE HE.
> 
> You'd be surprised at how much the impacts are not even. Do a test. put a tuna can in the middle of that spray... I did it, and ran the impact for 2 hours. Had less than 1/4 an inch in the middle of the spray pattern. Not saying they don't pump out water, it's just very uneven.
> 
> Ran 2 Rotators in line (head to head spacing as well) for 2 hours, and i had 1" of water in the middle of the spray.
> 
> I've got mine setup with a melnor 4 zone time (not the rain cloud one, but i want it). I set up 3 zones (each zone runs for 2 hours, and i start at 4am. I won't water past 10am) i then set the timer and let it do it's thing in the AM. Then rinse and repeat the next day till i water all areas.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> LawnNerd, Do you remember how you got the orbit spikes to connect to the MPs? It looks like the orbit spike takes a 1/2, whereas my (new) Hunter sprinkler is 3/4. Is there some 'nipple' to use here?
Click to expand...

I used these. https://www.amazon.com/10-Pack-Orbi...t+1/2-in+MNPT+x+3/4-in+MNPT+Flex+Pipe+Adapter from amazon when i was feeling lazy. You just need to cut it down to size.

And these https://www.lowes.com/pd/Orbit-1-2-in-MNPT-x-3-4-in-MNPT-Flex-Pipe-Adapter/3354818 from lowes when i was motivated to get up.


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> Nevermind about the sprinkler connection, @LawnNerd . I think I've found what I need right here :thumbup:


I didn't read far enough,, lol


----------



## LawnNerd

So, dethatch for sure. I'm a cheap guy, so i just rake (and raked and raked...lol). I'd rather use sweat than $$$. I've also got 2 kids under 2 years of age, so... Yea.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind about the sprinkler connection, @LawnNerd . I think I've found what I need right here :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read far enough,, lol
Click to expand...

Made it happen, LawnNerd. Thanks. Found the part, no problem. Hooked the orbit spikes up to a hunter PGP. Really liked what I saw. I'm currently testing how many I can chain together and at what distances.


----------



## social port

I was planning to buy one of these for my reseed



But I went ahead and bought it today. I ran it across the reno area. Definitely making progress. 
I want to mow once more. I have swapped wheels on my push mower so that I can get a lower cut.

Also found this tiny clump in my side yard.







I want to say that this is bermuda, but if it is Bermuda, this is the tiniest Bermuda I've ever seen. So, so small. 
Need to investigate this a bit more.

And...
My seeds came today!
100 lbs TTTF



2 lbs Midnight


----------



## pennstater2005

Ooohhhh....that's good stuff. I'm jealous!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Ooohhhh....that's good stuff. I'm jealous!


Yeah, I am pretty pumped about it. I'm going to have an extra level of strut in my step over the next several months.

Don't get me wrong: I love fescue. Really love fescue. I think I will really like the bluegrass, but at the end of this experiment, I bet I will elect to stay with fescue. It's got such great color.

But at the moment...my 100lbs of fescue seed is waiting for me in the garage. In contrast, I pulled the KBG seed out and kissed it. It is enjoying the air conditioning in my office. I can't really explain why I'm treating them differently.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ooohhhh....that's good stuff. I'm jealous!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I am pretty pumped about it. I'm going to have an extra level of strut in my step over the next several months.
> 
> Don't get me wrong: I love fescue. Really love fescue. I think I will really like the bluegrass, but at the end of this experiment, I bet I will elect to stay with fescue. It's got such great color.
> 
> But at the moment...my 100lbs of fescue seed is waiting for me in the garage. In contrast, I pulled the KBG seed out and kissed it. It is enjoying the air conditioning in my office. I can't really explain why I'm treating them differently.
Click to expand...

The KBG is really nice in its spreading ability. I have areas that were barren in the spring and without over seeding they're all just filled in. I wish that I would've done a 75/25 mix other than 50/50. I could always seed more PRG in later. Oh well.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

@social port Yeah brother, that's bermuda.


----------



## social port

Wow, @Colonel K0rn . It is tiny!! Baby Bermuda?
It is absolutely dwarfed by the other Bermuda in my yard. I can barely see it.


----------



## social port

...wait...I pulled this stuff out of the ground. It's probably going to come back fourfold in number and size :|


----------



## Colonel K0rn

social port said:


> Wow, @Colonel K0rn . It is tiny!! Baby Bermuda?
> It is absolutely dwarfed by the other Bermuda in my yard. I can barely see it.


Have you used any PGR this season? Reason being is that y'all Cool Season folk use higher rates, and it'll really make it tiny, I suspect. And why aren't you on Discord?!


----------



## social port

Colonel K0rn said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, @Colonel K0rn . It is tiny!! Baby Bermuda?
> It is absolutely dwarfed by the other Bermuda in my yard. I can barely see it.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you used any PGR this season? Reason being is that y'all Cool Season folk use higher rates, and it'll really make it tiny, I suspect. And why aren't you on Discord?!
Click to expand...

The only PGR I have used is a heat wave and no rainfall a couple of times this summer  
I'm PGR and fungicide free.
I'm convinced that Bermuda is intelligent and crafty. Those little soldiers were probably just hiding to avoid my wrath.

I am on discord every now and then, but mostly stick to the forum. It's a better fit for my style :thumbup:


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nevermind about the sprinkler connection, @LawnNerd . I think I've found what I need right here :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't read far enough,, lol
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Made it happen, LawnNerd. Thanks. Found the part, no problem. Hooked the orbit spikes up to a hunter PGP. Really liked what I saw. I'm currently testing how many I can chain together and at what distances.
Click to expand...

You can also change the tips out to a lower number. It might let you just squeak another one in series.


----------



## social port

How busy is the lawn journal sub-forum?!
No post for 24 hours...you're on the second page!

Yesterday, I took the mower down to the absolute lowest setting and mowed the reno area, bagging everything, of course.

We got pounded with rain last night, and it moved a lot of the dead material around-not very helpful. I ran the dethatcher again today, but I lost a connection at some point and the wheel came off of the dethatcher. That was my fault for not tightening things up better.

Sprayed the entire yard with the max rate of RGS. Also sprayed reno area with air-8 and d-thatch. I don't think that you are supposed to apply d-thatch twice in one month :bandit:, but I need all the help I can get. It was a small dose.

I'm finding all kinds of rocks in the reno area. I did not break up the soil in this area last year when I did my reno, so there is still some construction debris.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port Busy day! How you liking the air-8 and d-thatch? Noting a difference?


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 , I know, man, I am spent. I bought a new backpack sprayer just so that I could make those N Ext apps faster. Even with the 4 gallon sprayer, it took a long time.

I applied today because of the promise of rain. So far, it hasn't shown up, and MyRadar isn't too promising on that front.

As far as to whether they are working: I am not being a good steward of the product.

Three or so weeks ago, I was actually considering performing a study of sorts. But as of now, I don't even have an untreated area in my lawn. Everything is getting the N Ext treatment. So, there is nothing solid I can say right now.

I did buy a long screwdriver earlier this year, so at least I can use that. But I am going to wait until seeding before I go poking around.

Color response is also sometimes mentioned as an effect. 
I noticed no color response after my first app of air-8.

My second app included air-8 and d-thatch. I must admit that I have seen a nice color in my grass since that app, especially for this time of year. Of course, I believe that these products may have small amounts of N and K in them, so those could be contributing factors to the color response.


----------



## pennstater2005

Good to know. What pack did you get?


----------



## LawnNerd

Ahhh good ol Mother Nature. I swear her son's name is Murphy.

I seeded a reno area on Monday. That morning i checked the weather. 0% chance of rain Monday through Saturday. With all this East coast rain, i knew this was my window to get seed down. I checked one last time before heading home and i then had a measly 20% chance for monday. I gambled, and i lost.... Not even 2 hours after putting 18 lbs of seed down she unloaded on me. 1" of rain in about 20 minutes. To add insult to injury, the thunderstorm was no bigger than the small country town i live in. Ugh... Now it's just a wait and see what sprouts and what washed away.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Good to know. What pack did you get?


I ordered RGS, d-thatch, air-8, and humic 12. I don't think that they hang together as a group of four. RGS and AIR-8 are sometimes sold together as the 'compaction cure' package.

It's a lot of product. And it was a lot of money. And I've used nearly half of it already (sans the humic, which I am saving until I start using fert).

It took me months to make a decision on the purchase, mostly because I wanted to learn more about what made each product distinct-not in terms of proposed effects, but from active ingredients. 
I never got totally clear on that, but I learned enough and decided that I had to jump in the pool to see how the water felt. 
I don't really want to throw that much money down next year, but as of right now, I seem to be able to justify the purchase of each product. And I will probably be able to do the same next year.

Air-8 addresses my compaction
I love the nutrient and OM burst provided by d-thatch (my clippings etc getting back into the soil).
One always needs a good humic source, especially with low cec soil like mine
And RGS is...? The mother of all N Ext products?? Not sure. Still figuring this one out.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> Ahhh good ol Mother Nature. I swear her son's name is Murphy.
> 
> I seeded a reno area on Monday. That morning i checked the weather. 0% chance of rain Monday through Saturday. With all this East coast rain, i knew this was my window to get seed down. I checked one last time before heading home and i then had a measly 20% chance for monday. I gambled, and i lost.... Not even 2 hours after putting 18 lbs of seed down she unloaded on me. 1" of rain in about 20 minutes. To add insult to injury, the thunderstorm was no bigger than the small country town i live in. Ugh... Now it's just a wait and see what sprouts and what washed away.


Murphy!!
I'll be interested to know how things turn out and if you need to address anything (and if so, what you do).
This was KBG seed? 
Looks like you will be about 9-10 days ahead of me for seeding. I'm shooting for Wed/Thurs of this week.


----------



## LawnNerd

No this was Tttf seed. I spotted green babies @96 hrs so some stayed. Ill probably wait till the 2 week mark and judge from there. This is a benefit to starting early. I have the time to fix if needed.

Edit: just had another storm roll through. .8" in 20 minutes. Hope those sprouts i saw earlier were able to tack down enough...


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port Thanks! I'll be awaiting your final verdict.


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 I'm curious to see how much thatch I pull up in a couple of weeks before my overseed. I would think that the d-thatch would have had enough time to work by that point. Plus, I'm planning on a second blanket app a week or so before the overseed.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> No this was Tttf seed. I spotted green babies @96 hrs so some stayed. Ill probably wait till the 2 week mark and judge from there. This is a benefit to starting early. I have the time to fix if needed.
> 
> Edit: just had another storm roll through. .8" in 20 minutes. Hope those sprouts i saw earlier were able to tack down enough...


Ooh, what cultivars? 

I think you are right to call Murphy the son of Mother Nature, but can we just call Mother Nature Mother Murphy when she gives lawn folks a hard time?


----------



## LawnNerd

I don't want to jynx the rain. I'm grateful for it, as i have 0 stress on the rest of the lawn! I haven't gone 5 days without rain since late July. 13" total for August alone!

For seed cultivars:


I'm excited for this blend!


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd yeah, they really seem to value 4+ cultivars there at Hogan's. It makes a lot of sense in terms of compensation for stress.

I used turbo last year. I almost pulled the trigger on falcon iv this year.


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> @LawnNerd yeah, they really seem to value 4+ cultivars there at Hogan's. It makes a lot of sense in terms of compensation for stress.
> 
> I used turbo last year. I almost pulled the trigger on falcon iv this year.


I poured about 10-12 hours of NTEP study (I even built a nice excel sheet from the Raleigh Data... :ugeek: ), and my list was Houndog8, Hemi, and Firewall. Turbo was a runner up, so When Bob told me about their 5-way blend, I knew i was gonna be happy.


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> @LawnNerd yeah, they really seem to value 4+ cultivars there at Hogan's. It makes a lot of sense in terms of compensation for stress.
> 
> I used turbo last year. I almost pulled the trigger on falcon iv this year.
> 
> 
> 
> I poured about 10-12 hours of NTEP study (I even built a nice excel sheet from the Raleigh Data... :ugeek: ), and my list was Houndog8, Hemi, and Firewall. Turbo was a runner up, so When Bob told me about their 5-way blend, I knew i was gonna be happy.
Click to expand...

I just ordered the Hogan Blend TTTF for my neighbor. I think he will like it. I'm curious to see that blend beside the mix I have in my yard.

12 hours comparing cultivars. Sounds like fun :ugeek: 
After that process, you must feel great about the final candidates.


----------



## social port

Been working on this seedbed. I've mowed several times and bagged. Used a lawn rake. Used a manual thatch rake. And I've used a tow-behind thatch rake. Not to mention the N Ext products. I've removed quite a few rocks.

I think I'm good to go. The dirt is so loose now that the seed should press into the soil magnificently.









I just got done cleaning up the edges with a trimmer. I also hit areas that I missed with a garden weasel.

Glyphosate tomorrow. Seed, fert +meso, peat, and final sprinkler placement on Wednesday.

I think this is going to go well.


----------



## iowa jim

Looks like you will have excellent seed to soil contact. I used a pull behind dethatcher on my reno at that is where i had the best germination, in the rows that it created. nice job


----------



## social port

iowa jim said:


> Looks like you will have excellent seed to soil contact. I used a pull behind dethatcher on my reno at that is where i had the best germination, in the rows that it created. nice job


Thanks, iowa jim. I'm happy with the result, for the most part. I like the tow-behind thatch rake-a lot. I'm going to use it for my overseed next month.


----------



## social port

Got the blanket app of glyphosate down on the KBG reno area today. Tomorrow is seed down day. We have a stretch of ideal weather coming up. Ordered some tackifier today just in case. It should arrive early next week.

I've had a lot of clover popping up recently. I've also noticed some 'little trees.' I believe I am seeing a resurgence in black medic as well. I hit all of these plants with WBG CCO today. I made the mix a little on the hot side.

I spot sprayed my front yard partial reno with gly and AS.

I also applied soul stealer CCO. It will be the last full app of the year. I ran out of Ornamec. In fact, I was a little short on Ornamec in the solution I used today. Going forward, I will just be using AS, gly, and WBGCCO(only a one week reseed interval for the WBGCCO-surprising!).

I still have bermuda popping up in new places. It is running the full length of my side yard now-not continuously, but in patches.
I don't think it is spreading. I think that I killed some last year, but other patches were merely damaged. These plants have taken a long time to recover, but they are doing so as the summer continues. That's my best guess anyway.

What this means is that, regardless of my efforts this year, I will likely have some Bermuda to deal with next year. I seriously doubt that it all will recover in time for me to completely end for them with soul stealer CCO this year.

For next year, as soon as I see bermuda breaking dormancy in the area, I'm doing a blanket app of tenacity in the side yard. Depending on how pervasive the Bermuda is, I will either begin using pylex, or I will start early in the summer with blanket apps of soul stealer CCO. I'll feed the side yard with nitrogen all summer to encourage all of it to return-only to be met by its agent of doom.

I'll also take this time to smooth the lawn. It would be a great time for an underground irrigation system to be installed, but I'm not sure I'm up to the task yet. Once I've killed every Bermuda molecule, I will look to the fall with either KBG or TTTF. I might be adventurous and make it a mono.


----------



## pennstater2005

I can't believe the Bermuda is still hanging around!  Here's to seed down day @social port :beer:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I can't believe the Bermuda is still hanging around! Here's to seed down day @social port :beer:


Amen, Brother :beer:


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> I'll feed the side yard with nitrogen all summer to encourage all of it to return-only to be met by its agent of doom.


Hahaha :twisted: Fattening it up before the slaughter...


----------



## social port

Seed down day for KBG
Total KBG reno area= 1365 sq ft

Area 1 = 525 sq ft. 
1 lb Award, NuGlade, Mazama 
Scott's starter fert with mesotrione = 2.1 lbs

Area 2 = 840 sq ft. 
1.7 lbs Midnight 
Scott's starter fert with mesotrione= 3.1 lbs

Light peat moss for both areas.

Award, NuGlade, Mazama


Midnight


Seed on the ground


Seed in the ground (after running mower tires over the area several times. This seems to have worked as well, if not better, than the roller I used last year)


Still need to finish laying peat moss. I see rain clouds approaching.


----------



## pennstater2005

I ran mine over last year with the tractor last fall. It worked like yours pressed them in. Although I didn't get far because it was taking forever :lol:

Did you get the peat moss down?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I ran mine over last year with the tractor last fall. It worked like yours pressed them in. Although I didn't get far because it was taking forever :lol:
> 
> Did you get the peat moss down?


Just finished-by the light of the moon. I need to double check coverage tomorrow morning since I couldn't see very well.

I had to tweak my sprinkler set-up as well. One of my orbits stopped rotating.
I need to revisit my coverage tomorrow (I think I am missing one area), but I went ahead and ran them for twenty minutes for a one-time soaking.


----------



## LawnNerd

Now see, i thought i was a lazy odd ball because i drove my rider mower on my seed too!!! It worked, survived a couple good storms as i see green fuzz when pulling in!

That KBG seed is tiny compared to TTTF isn't it!


----------



## social port

Congrats on the fuzz, @LawnNerd . :thumbup:

Yes, the KBG is tiny. I was really surprised by how much it differs from fescue seed. I felt as though I had much less control over the application. I spread half with my earthway broadcast spreader. The other half was done by hand.

I checked peat coverage this morning. It is not perfect, but if I did a full reno, the peat coverage would probably look like it does now. That's the point, I suppose: to see how a KBG grow would go if I did my whole yard.

I also adjusted my sprinklers. All areas are now getting wet, but it is getting more saturated near the sprinkler heads. My fescue is also catching some of the spray. I'm not at all happy about that. I would like to adjust somehow, but I think I've reached the natural limits of what I can do. It should be ok. Hopefully.





Oh, and I've got to be out of town for a few days :shock: :lol:

Didn't see that one coming until about a week and a half ago. Oh well. Sometimes these things happen. I've got the timer set up. Maybe I'll have green babies when I get back home.

Got to mow today and then make final adjustments if needed.


----------



## LawnNerd

I've got areas alive catching spray as well. I just did a preventative Azoxy treatment like a day or two after seed went down. Seriously, this is the best time to go out of town. No rain in the forecast. Now you don't have the option to obsess about the seed and watching for germination. Lol!

I looked up Nashville's weather and looks like you all got some low - mid 90's coming this weekend. Might want to increase the number of waterings, but back down the duration of the watering. Increased heat like that will dry and heat that soil quickly. I had a spell of mid 90's at the exact same time you're about too. I did every 2 hours but for like 5-7 minutes. Enough to dampen that soil again and cool those seeds down.


----------



## pennstater2005

Finishing up by the light of the moon....that's dedication! KBG is small, something like 1.5 million seeds in a pound. It should look awesome but it's so slow to come in it's painful &#128534;


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> just did a preventative Azoxy treatment like a day or two after seed went down


I'm doing this whole thing with no fungicides. My broad plan is never to apply. I've had at least two different diseases this year (and maybe a third) and I've had some losses, but the fescue recovers surprisingly well. But yeah, seeing all that water hit the fescue last night sure made me want to get a preventative down ASAP.



LawnNerd said:


> Seriously, this is the best time to go out of town. No rain in the forecast. Now you don't have the option to obsess about the seed and watching for germination. Lol!


 :lol: I was thinking earlier this morning that leaving during a KBG reno in the transition zone is either the smartest or dumbest thing I've ever done.
My obsession is with sprinkler coverage and making those dang adjustments to get it 'perfect' :lol:



LawnNerd said:


> I looked up Nashville's weather and looks like you all got some low - mid 90's coming this weekend. Might want to increase the number of waterings, but back down the duration of the watering. Increased heat like that will dry and heat that soil quickly. I


For today and tomorrow, we are about 10 degrees cooler than normal. It is downright pleasant outside. Good. Then, Sat and Sunday, we are pushing those 90s you mention. Scares me a little. 
I would be doing every 2-3 hours like you, but here's the thing I was reminded of yesterday: For daily watering, my Orbit timers allow for only every 6 hours or every 12 hours. Not good. 
That was fine for when my fescue was up-and-running last year and just needed water 1x/day. Not so much now.

I have one thing on my side: The KBG is up against the back of my house. Large areas are partially shaded for nearly half of the day. The soil stays moist in these areas (I never need to water them unless I'm applying product).

So my fate is watering at 7am, 1pm, and 7pm. About 12 minutes each. I should be back Sunday night and then return to a more frequent schedule. So...I just need to get those little ones through 2 days of heat.

You almost have me wondering whether it would be best to do a mega-water (25 minutes or so) around 2pm. That would help prevent continuous oversaturation, while also ensuring that the soil remains moist (I believe). It would also give the fescue blades some time to dry off before sunset.

:?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Finishing up by the light of the moon....that's dedication! KBG is small, something like 1.5 million seeds in a pound. It should look awesome but it's so slow to come in it's painful 😖


So I've read :lol: 
I'm ready for the pout (famous last words)


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> For today and tomorrow, we are about 10 degrees cooler than normal. It is downright pleasant outside. Good. Then, Sat and Sunday, we are pushing those 90s you mention. Scares me a little.
> I would be doing every 2-3 hours like you, but here's the thing I was reminded of yesterday: For daily watering, my Orbit timers allow for only every 6 hours or every 12 hours. Not good.
> That was fine for when my fescue was up-and-running last year and just needed water 1x/day. Not so much now.
> 
> I have one thing on my side: The KBG is up against the back of my house. Large areas are partially shaded for nearly half of the day. The soil stays moist in these areas (I never need to water them unless I'm applying product).
> 
> So my fate is watering at 7am, 1pm, and 7pm. About 12 minutes each. I should be back Sunday night and then return to a more frequent schedule. So...I just need to get those little ones through 2 days of heat.
> 
> You almost have me wondering whether it would be best to do a mega-water (25 minutes or so) around 2pm. That would help prevent continuous oversaturation, while also ensuring that the soil remains moist (I believe). It would also give the fescue blades some time to dry off before sunset.
> :?


Getcha a new timer then. I have this one and can go Every 1, 2, 4, 6, 12, or 24 hrs. 
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Melnor-Dig...0nk6qS8bsSY9sycIQbjmrxUQDgIwaA9BoCprcQAvD_BwE

I can also select if i want it to water on tues wed but not thurs or sun. I select the days, and frequencies. Only think i Can't do is manually program times. I can't get it to run during the day, but not at night also (unless i kill the water supply)

I like the idea of a big dump at 2, Only because it's shady back there.

And yea, i can't wait for you to see the pout... It'll drive you NUTS!


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd so, with your timer, if you are running every 3 hours, does that mean that you are watering every 3 hours at night as well (assuming that you don't turn the water off)?

Well, now I don't know what to do. I checked the soil outside (the little ones are getting full sun right now) and thought that I should stick with 7/1/7. I've upped the watering time to 14 minutes.

But you like the big dump idea?

Not sure what I'm going to do...nothing like a reno to bring out obsessive thinking :lol:


----------



## social port

For the record, that dwarf Bermuda that I pulled out of the ground 7 days ago still has green blades after sitting in my hot garage all week on a cardboard box. 


Got the mowing done. I'll have to wait for edging.
I took some photos to update the repair work I'm doing in the front yard. Looks like I pretty well got all of the fescue. I need to start pulling this dead stuff up. It's going to be a long process.











Also, here is where some of those areas of drought stress were on the slopes earlier this summer. Looks like they weathered the summer just fine, after all (still stressed, perhaps, but looking better).



Finally, here is pre and post cut of the backyard. The KBG reno sections are on the right. The sporadic tan spots are dead Bermuda and dallisgrass.


----------



## pennstater2005

Are your neighbors like what the hell or just used to it now :lol:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Are your neighbors like what the hell or just used to it now :lol:


 :lol: Oh, it looks horrible. Doesn't help that I also have blue splatters from the marker dye in some of the tan areas.

I really don't know what they think. If they are like me, they just look at how green the TTTF is.

Those that have been in the neighborhood for a while probably know that I am running a plan. Others are probably like, Dude, are you going to do this every year?!

Someone did ask me what happened to the grass. "I killed it." [Shock face]. "Oh, don't worry. It was Kentucky 31. It didn't match. I'm putting in something better." That probably did nothing to reassure her of my sanity, but I gotta speak the truth.

As bad as the front looks, the side yard is the real attention-grabber. It's random shapes of complete and utter annihilation over there.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Dude, are you going to do this every year?!


Probably this :rofl:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Dude, are you going to do this every year?!
> 
> 
> 
> Probably this :rofl:
Click to expand...

Well, I hate to tell them...but


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> Not sure what I'm going to do...nothing like a reno to bring out obsessive thinking :lol:


THE TRUTH!!! :lol: :lol: :beer:

Right now i'm running every 2, as the area i'm working in is full sun all day long. I'm running the MP rotators for 15 min a pop, as they put down water pretty slow @.4" an hour. I do not water at night. I have a shut off valve in front of the timer, and i kill the water supply to the system at night. Usually after the 7pm cycle runs. (I still have sun lingering in this area at this time) I then turn the water back on just before the 7am cycle.

When i was running the hunter rotors last year on my kbg i was running every 2 hrs but for 5-6 minutes at a time, as they water at ~.6" an hour. This area was full sun, ALL DAY LONG and it was pretty much 90 every day.

Your spot however is shaded in the afternoon, so your ET rates are much lower. I like this because there isn't much need to continually water shaded seed, you'll just swamp it all afternoon. As long as it's slightly damp when the sun sets, i think you're good.


----------



## Mrotatori

@social port did you get good success with riding over the seed with your mower?


----------



## social port

Mrotatori said:


> @social port did you get good success with riding over the seed with your mower?


It is difficult to say for sure because much of the proof is in the germination percentage.

That being said, I believe I got that KBG seed tucked away nicely with my tires.

I have absolutely no regrets about not using a roller (I did use a roller last year, BTW). I liked what I saw with the tires (I was liberal with the throttle and pretty wild when turning-not at all the manner used for mowing. I'm not sure that being aggressive was the optimal thing to do, but that was my route this time).


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd I left the schedule at 7/1/7 and upped the watering time to 16 minutes. I also adjusted two of the sprinklers again :lol:

Forecast is for those 90 degree temps to continue to rise through the week. I'll be back in time to up the frequency and decrease the amount of time per watering. I may look into the timer you linked. I think @FlyMike uses those as well.


----------



## social port

@Mrotatori also, if it helps to know, I'm also going to use my riding mower to press my fescue seeds into the ground for my overseed this year.


----------



## social port

Stepping outside tonight feels like walking into a shower running inside an oven. I'm glad I'm not reseeding yet. But I'm definitely on the move on that front.

I started 'scalping' and bagging the dead grass from the front yard today. I'm hoping to have all dead areas cleaned up within a week or less.
Planning one more N Ext App before reseeding.
Need to revisit sprinkler set-up for overseeding.
And I'm expecting one more herbicide app to clean up bermuda and dallisgrass.

I'm other news, I've been driving myself nuts with the KBG reno. :lol:

Came home Sunday night to find this




Noooooo!!! 
I should've dialed those watering times back a little. 
So, I've been working on drying up the soil since Monday night. I've been watering about 3-5 minutes a pop 3-6 times per day. I think I am making progress.

Heavy downpours are in the forecast. This year, it seems that many TLFers have reno threads that include a chapter called "A river runs through it." Scares me to death. So, I put down some m-binder this evening. Talk about inconsistent application! I'm really hoping that adding the m-binder wasn't a mistake. I was definitely second-guessing the move during the app.

It is possible that I saw the smallest of sprouts this evening. Just one or two. And really, I can't say for sure. The truth will out tomorrow morning.


----------



## Budstl

Mother nature is cruel. We'd all like a nice steady rain, but she prefers the downpours. Currently storming in st louis. It's dark out, but from what i can yell the ez straw is still in place. I got to check later when i get off work.


----------



## LawnNerd

WOAH SP! Was that from the 25 minute dump at 2pm!?

Well, Day 7 is when i notice the first few early birds coming up, so i would not be surprised if you saw a few last night. You're gonna have to check today, and of course a flash light test tonight.


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd No, I ended up watering 3x day rather than the mega dump strategy. The pic in the above post with the saturated soil and puddling was taken about ten minutes after a 16 minute watering cycle at 7am. Could be worse, I know, but that is much, much wetter than I was aiming for.

I didnt even run the water this morning. I'm probably going to push it to 12 pm, as there are a few spots that are still too saturated (I don't know how with 90+temps!).

Also,

Germination confirmed .





These sprouts are Mazama, NuGlade, and Award. All is quiet on Radio Midnight.

The trend for germination is clear: Thicker layers of peat + modest moisture are fastest. Shade-sunlight seems to have made little impact thus far.


----------



## Budstl

Congrats @social port. It's a sigh of relief when you see the babies coming up.


----------



## pennstater2005

Sweet!


----------



## LawnNerd

Heck Yea!! I just got a little egotistical there, like i won a race i didn't even know I was in!


----------



## social port

Thanks, Fellas. I love my babies--every one of them. Now to wait on their brothers and sisters!

We need virtual cigars to hand out whenever we have our first sprouts of the season.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Thanks, Fellas. I love my babies--every one of them. Now to wait on their brothers and sisters!
> 
> We need virtual cigars to hand out whenever we have our first sprouts of the season.


This'll have to do!

🍻🥃🍾🍺🍷🍹🥂🍸 :bandit:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Fellas. I love my babies--every one of them. Now to wait on their brothers and sisters!
> 
> We need virtual cigars to hand out whenever we have our first sprouts of the season.
> 
> 
> 
> This'll have to do!
> 
> 🍻🥃🍾🍺🍷🍹🥂🍸 :bandit:
Click to expand...

Yup. :lol: I'm gonna have to drink a few beers this weekend and let the sprouts get used to their new life. Maybe put a little of the beer in the reno soil. Might have a few extra sprouts by the next morning. :bandit:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Fellas. I love my babies--every one of them. Now to wait on their brothers and sisters!
> 
> We need virtual cigars to hand out whenever we have our first sprouts of the season.
> 
> 
> 
> This'll have to do!
> 
> 🍻🥃🍾🍺🍷🍹🥂🍸 :bandit:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. :lol: I'm gonna have to drink a few beers this weekend and let the sprouts get used to their new life. Maybe put a little of the beer in the reno soil. Might have a few extra sprouts by the next morning. :bandit:
Click to expand...


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 :lol:

Continued to work on getting the front reno area cleaned up. I've run over this area 20+times, but my mower just can't pick everything up.





Dealing with these smaller areas (3k and less) really makes you notice how much room for improvement there is.

I'm planning to use a string trimmer to clean up the smaller areas, including the Bermuda Warfield.

I noticed these clouds rolling in on my way inside. I think these represent the first signal of the coming storms.







Ain't skeeered.


----------



## iowa jim

After having a washout every time i hear thunder now i sit in a corner and cry.


----------



## social port

iowa jim said:


> After having a washout every time i hear thunder now i sit in a corner and cry.


 :lol: I hear you; but it seems like you are doing just fine :thumbup:

Those clouds from earlier came to play. Thunder. Lightening. And a hard, hard, rain. Lots of puddles. I saved some midnight seed, but I'm out of the Blend. Going to play it by ear at this point, so no reseeding for now.

That's one of the problems with seeding in August-at least in my area. There are too many sudden downpours. Usually, in September there is a stretch of 45 days where it is sunny, and there is a total of .0093 inches of rain. You get no help from Mother Nature, but you avoid her wrath as well.


----------



## KHARPS

iowa jim said:


> After having a washout every time i hear thunder now i sit in a corner and cry.


I've had 3 so far. It's very discouraging.


----------



## social port

Apparently, lightening split a tree in half about a mile down the road. I'm glad I wasn't trying to mow outside.

I've still got puddles as of right now...but the good news is that the Midnight is germinating. I'm calling it about 20 hours after the Mazama, NuGlade, and Award.


----------



## g-man

^ Midnight germinating in there? All I see is the green bermuda leaves.


----------



## LawnNerd

g-man said:


> ^ Midnight germinating in there? All I see is the green bermuda leaves.


Welp, @social port just had a heart attack...


----------



## social port

If that is bermuda, I'm going to move.


----------



## g-man

The green leaf in the bottom left?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> The green leaf in the bottom left?




Circled area is Midnight.
Triangle is the suspect Bermuda, I take it? 
It does look suspicious. As far as I know, this was a bermuda free area. 
I'm thinking that the tissue is actually marking dye on a dead plant. 
I pulled a couple of what I think are the suspects.



Here are two pictures of the midnight from today. The sprouts are tiny, whereas the Award, NuGlade, and Mazama is already fuzzy in sections.





I need to get that splitter ASAP and maybe one of LawnNerd's timers. I keep on walking on baby Midnights to run the sprinklers manually


----------



## social port

On the other hand, if that is bermuda, then this a rough outline to a future conversation with the Mrs, a real variation of which might one day make it to the Annals of She Just Don't Understand
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=622&p=11453&hilit=she+just+don%27t+understand#p11453

Imaginary future conversation: 
Wife: I don't understand. You want to move. Where is this coming from?
Me: It's the bermuda. It's everywhere. It finds me with every step.
Wife: You want to move because of grass?
Me: No, I want to move because we got the bermuda.
Wife: You sound ridiculous.
Me: I think it is following me. It's sinister.
Wife: Get grip. It's a lawn.
Me: Uh...I'm trying to grow bluegrass out there! Bluegrass!! And what decides to get in the middle of everything?! The undead one itself. Out of nowhere! There's no escape from it!!
Wife: Uhh...
Me: We're moving to Canada. I'll deal with herbicides restrictions if it means no bermuda. Minnesota/Michigan/Wisconsin is my compromise.
Wife: We're not moving.


----------



## g-man

Or embrace Bermuda.

I'm just messing with you. I don't see Bermuda in your image (maybe because it is underneath the soil waiting to come back).


----------



## social port

Ok, g-man. That's about as close as I want to get to 'bluemuda' or whatever that stuff is called.

I've made an appt with a cardiologist.


----------



## pennstater2005

I imagine Canada gets pretty damn cold.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I imagine Canada gets pretty damn cold.


Yup, perfect conditions for bluegrass and fescue. And thus far, I've yet to see a thread from our Canadian colleagues on how to kill bermuda.

Meanwhile, Mother Murphy paid a visit. Just had a very intense pop-up storm.
I took these pictures a few minutes ago.





In case it's not clear, everything is submerged. And the rain is still pouring. 
Probably gonna have a Friday beer on Thursday and watch the Titans game tonight. I'll never need to water again. :lol:

If the seeds and sprouts make it through this, I don't think I can rationally worry about washout etc again.


----------



## pennstater2005

Whoa! If the germination has already occurred and the little green sprouts are just under the surface the seed is probably fine.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Whoa! If the germination has already occurred and the little green sprouts are just under the surface the seed is probably fine.


Thanks, pennstater. I will hold on to that.

I got the vast majority of that seed into the ground on seeding day, and I did get the m-binder down. I think I've done about everything that I can. I'm going to give it another week and if there are still bare areas at that point, I will reseed with the Midnight I saved -at least on the Midnight side (I want to have clean plots for comparison: mono Midnight against MNA KBG).


----------



## LawnNerd

I think you're good. Those roots were already tacking down in that soil, and since you don't have a huge slope to move the soil, those little babies are probably good.


----------



## social port

Went out to investigate this morning. The MNA section got to work, with many new sprouts coming up over night. There are still bare areas, but this reno section as a whole is starting to look promising.

I didn't see any new growth in Operation Midnight, but I didn't see any obvious signs of damage to the existing sprouts either. If the germination pattern holds, I should see a surge of new Midnight sprouts over the next 1-2 days.


----------



## Budstl

@social port anything new with the midnight section?


----------



## social port

hey, @Budstl. Yeah, I've had some movement in the Midnight section--not quite a surge, but it is coming along...sloooooooowly.

I took a tip from @pennstater2005 's thread and have started watering by hand as much as possible (1-2x/day, with sprinklers taking the rest of the load). That allows me to better control coverage, and I can avoid re-wetting areas that collect the most water.

The NMA is handily outperforming Midnight at the moment.

I'm heading out now to work on the yard some. I'm going to clean up the bermuda warfield with my string trimmer to get up some of the dead 'grass'.

I cut the whole yard on Friday (8/31)and am looking to take it down from 4.5 to 4.0 and then 3.5 before a final reseed cut around 2.0. With daily temps still running 72-95, the idea of shorter cuts is not so appealing. But hey, that's where I am.

The sun is hitting hard right now, but I'll take some Midnight pictures later on this evening. I'm might even include a dead bermuda shot for g-man.


----------



## social port

On to business
NMA (NuGlade, Mazama, Award)





Thickest area of NMA germination thus far



Midnight


----------



## social port

This is some of my 'washout. I'm not sure what to do with it. Maybe look for seed?



Here is tenacity going to work on something (purple-ish color)



I found a couple of these and pulled them-seemingly unphased by tenacity. Not sure what it is


----------



## social port

I expected for the KBG to be lighter than the fescue.

First of all, there is nothing to complain about in the color of my fescue, especially at the end of summer with minimal irrigation





But check out this piece of TTTF against the NMA sprouts! (Fescue is bottom-ish right)


----------



## social port

This is what soul-less Bermuda looks like 


This was a stolon 


My side yard with the Bermuda war


Sporadic spots notwithstanding, this is ground zero


----------



## pennstater2005

Well the bermuda looks dead! KBG is starting to come in nicely. Don't worry too much about the washout. I would just rake that around and maybe throw a little extra seed out.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Well the bermuda looks dead! KBG is starting to come in nicely. Don't worry too much about the washout. I would just rake that around and maybe throw a little extra seed out.


I'll move forward with that plan today. :thumbup: I seeded on 8/22, so now seems like a very reasonable time to reseed. Can't believe it's been that long already.


----------



## social port

Put the remaining Midnight seed (about .25 lbs) in the Midnight reno area. Completely bare areas are mostly non-existent, so I wasn't able to walk into the reno area. 
I threw seed from the Perimeter and then mixed native dirt with peat moss for a covering. I hope I didn't knock over any sprouts when slinging that top dressing. 
This isn't really what I wanted, but it made the most sense under the circumstances.

Mowed front and back yard down to 4 inches and bagged the clippings.
Now that I have 100 pounds of grass seed, I am wondering if I really even need to overseed. Somehow, this grass is just looking thick and relatively healthy. N-Ext??







Obviously, I'm going to need to reseed the Bermuda areas, and I do have a few areas that get a lot of traffic (riding mower mainly) and need some work; but otherwise, this grass is in amazing shape for the end of summer.
I am wondering if I will end up doing more harm than good by taking it down to 2 inches and subjecting it to watering multiple times per day.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port You are seriously making me consider TTTF as I don't have irrigation.

Straight TTTF or blend with a little KBG :dunno:


----------



## g-man

Too much bermuda in this thread. Should I move this to the warm season side?


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 unless my grass thins out over the next week, I may have 50 or so lbs of seed leftover. 

It's kind of interesting, though: You are considering TTTF, while I am considering KBG. (That summer patch scares me to death, though. Still trying to learn enough to see how ridiculous it would be to try to prevent it by trying to achieve an optimal iron and manganese balance) .

pennstater, if you really want the TTTF push, go to the LCN's channel. I know, I know, CGI Turf is great-his fescue is first-rate, no doubt about it...but go check out LCN mowing down that fescue yard in Indiana. That dude had color...like make you hurt color. I think it is still my favorite yard to date.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Too much bermuda in this thread. Should I move this to the warm season side?


I thought you would enjoy the lifeless stolon. Could be wrong, g-man, but I think its soul left with just one application.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> unless my grass thins out over the next week, I may have 50 or so lbs of seed leftover.
> 
> It's kind of interesting, though: You are considering TTTF, while I am considering KBG. (That summer patch scares me to death, though. Still trying to learn enough to see how ridiculous it would be to try to prevent it by trying to achieve an optimal iron and manganese balance) .
> 
> pennstater, if you really want the TTTF push, go to the LCN's channel. I know, I know, CGI Turf is great-his fescue is first-rate, no doubt about it...but go check out LCN mowing down that fescue yard in Indiana. That dude had color...like make you hurt color. I think it is still my favorite yard to date.


The KBG/PRG blend I put in last fall is doing just ok without irrigation. It has not rained here much at all in the last month. I know anything would struggle under those conditions but I wonder sometimes if TTTF would fit me better in that regard. I've got about a year to think it over 

I'll check out those videos though. I am intrigued.


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 I am ashamed at how little I've watered this summer. My primary goal with water has been to encourage dying bermuda to grow and to keep the slopes in my front yard at least somewhat green.

I have watered the entire lawn some this summer-don't get me wrong. But the vast majority of my water has come from rainfall.

As bad as it looked at times during the summer, the majority of my fescue has pulled through.

YMMV, but yeah, I see your point.


----------



## Green

We've gotten mostly sufficient rain here this year, though with a few periods of several weeks with none or little. I lost some of the grass from last year's overseed. It just wasn't hardened off enough. I also may have lost some that was planted a few years ago in the back, but I think it's mostly dormancy.

Good to hear you haven't lost much.
Edit: at least to natural causes.


----------



## social port

NMA still plugging along.
Midnight still slugging along. 
I've reseeded the barer area in the Midnight section. This area collects a lot of water.





Mowed side yard down to 4 inches and bagged the clippings. Look who came back.



I identified some new areas of outbreak as well.

I'm mowing the side yard down over the next week. Perhaps being a little too generous, I've given my neighbor the rest of my AS. Going to order some more tonight. Once I get the grass down to 2-3 inches, I'm striking hard with AS, WBGCCO, gly, and NIS. I have a seed down estimate for 9/15, so I need to move quickly.


----------



## pennstater2005

Any updates on germination? Or the bermuda?


----------



## social port

Hey, pennstater. The KBG is making progress. The hand-watering has helped, I believe. I've put two and two together to realize that I did have some washout in the Midnight section, because I have germination in areas that I did not seed.

No worries, though. I'm pretty sure that I already have germination from my reseed effort (with about a quarter pound of seed).

My AS came today for my Bermuda treatments. I wasn't able to get it down today. I'm running behind a little. Gonna try to catch up tomorrow, and I'll take some pics then. The KBG progress is worthy of a picture.


----------



## social port

NMA section 




Midnight section




I'd say there are at least a few seeds that have yet to germinate, but I'm just guessing.
I've got some weeds in both sections. Some are broadleaf, and I'm not worried about them. The other weed is dallisgrass, I think. It is so little, it is hard to tell. The mesotrione has bleached only two plants. I'm not sure how the dalligrass and broadleafs made it past; I went fairly heavy in my meso rate. 
I suspect that the dethatching rake helped to bring the weeds up-but I did give them plenty of time to spout before my last glyph app, so...not really sure.


----------



## social port

9/7 mowed side yard down to 3 inches. Bagged clippings. 
Put extra dirt in low areas in front yard.
Sprayed side yard the d-thatch.

9/8 mowed front yard down to 3.5 inches. Bagged clippings. 
Sprayed d-thatch over front, side, and back yard. Rainfall is expected tomorrow. 
Tried to spray Bermuda-a few new areas identified due to 3 inch cut in side yard. New shoots found in back yard.
INTERCEPTION. I ordered AS-and it was granular (had no idea until I opened the bag). I couldn't get it dissolved. Luckily, I had a tiny amount of AS leftover from my other bag. So I was able to use it.
FUMBLE. Apparently, I forgot that I used all my glyphosate with the last app. 
Not good. If you don't run the A game, bermuda wins.
So, I mixed the AS and WBGCCO. At a minimum, that will hurt the Bermuda a little. I also used marking dye so that I can easily identity the areas of interest once I get more glyphosate.
Ordered AS. Should arrive Monday.

With a one week interval between WBGCCO app and seeding, next Saturday is the earliest day I can safely reseed.


----------



## social port

Forgot to document

I pulled up a dizzying number of clover plants, little trees, and a few other broadleafs. 
One advantage of using a rotary mower is that you can stop to pluck those things when you see them.

And I found what I believe is a vole tunnel. It is tearing up the backyard and part of the side yard. It is getting very close to the midnight reno. Put some poison peanuts in the tunnel.


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## pennstater2005

@social port NMA section looks like it's coming in. Any more vole damage?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port NMA section looks like it's coming in. Any more vole damage?


Not that I can see.
But I got rained out today, so I haven't been out to inspect. If the poison doesn't work, I'm going to use some noise emitters that I used last year.

The rain started falling lightly this morning around 11am. By 2:00pm, we were getting heavy downpours. It is still raining now, albeit lightly. Both of the reno areas were submerged again, but I've made a rule not to be worried about it. I'm sure they will pull through just fine.
It is supposed to clear up tomorrow, so hopefully the areas will dry up some. At least my d-thatch app got watered in.


----------



## Green

Wow, every time I check up on this project and...wow. This is intense.

If you manage to get your TTTF seed down by 9/15, you're doing well. I'm lucky if I can get the rest of my seeding done by next weekend, and it's a lot more important being much further North...I'm late. I couldn't believe it...the highs the last two days were mid 60s, into the low 50s at night, with dewpoints into the high 40s! You know what it was like here just a few days ago!


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Wow, every time I check up on this project and...wow. This is intense.
> 
> If you manage to get your TTTF seed down by 9/15, you're doing well. I'm lucky if I can get the rest of my seeding done by next weekend, and it's a lot more important being much further North...I'm late. I couldn't believe it...the highs the last two days were mid 60s, into the low 50s at night, with dewpoints into the high 40s! You know what it was like here just a few days ago!


Green, I know. The weather has been a double-edge sword for both of us. It has been so hot and humid that it would be foolish to try to seed (and have watering hanging around all day and night). But it is getting so late in the year that it is foolish to not be seeding.

Then, out of nowhere, it's 10 degrees cooler and wanting to go down even more.

That cooling trend is happening for me next weekend. The timing will be good; I just have to my foot on the accelerator this week to get the yard 100% ready for *Lawn Weekend*


----------



## social port

Used the echo string trimmer to cut down all of my dead patches in the yard. I ran through two full tanks of gas. That machine is a beast.
I almost finished, but I still have a few dead Bermuda patches. I raked everything up and bagged it. I could not get my mower to pick up the clippings on the high setting. I changed my blade to mow lower, and I cracked the metal piece that rests between the blade and the rod.

Timing is terrible, but these things happen.

I'm going to do another gly app to these bare areas in two days or so. I'll also get the remaining living Bermuda then. The Bermuda did not like my AS-laced triclopyr.

With the recent downpours, I had some erosion in the KBG reno, but everything looks well enough. I let it dry out yesterday, watering only in the evening. It has almost been cool here, and it has been very cloudy (about one hour of sun today). I didn't water today until about 4pm. The area is still pretty wet. Temps are going back up tomorrow and high 80s on Friday. I will likely be watering more frequently then. By and large, I think I'm just getting the KBG through the pout stage now.

You can see some of my washout here. This area was not seeded. Rocks and concrete are plentiful in this area, and I expect the grass to die soon


More dallisgrass coming up, among other things. The tenacity has been largely ineffective. I know I used a good product. I know my application was solid. I know that it got watered in. Perhaps the heavy watering for the first two days adversely affected the tenacity.
Most recently, these puppies are shooting up. It kind of looks like sedge to me, but I'm not sure. I've never had sedge, to my knowledge.


The KBG is coming along, those issues notwithstanding.

NMA






Midnight


----------



## pennstater2005

Nice thing about the KBG is even with some erosion and damage it will fill in. Nudge it with some nitrogen when the time is right and it goes crazy. And you could use the pro plugger once it thickens up and address any areas where there might not be any KBG growing.

I'm still liking how your TTTF looks.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Nice thing about the KBG is even with some erosion and damage it will fill in. Nudge it with some nitrogen when the time is right and it goes crazy. And you could use the pro plugger once it thickens up and address any areas where there might not be any KBG growing.
> 
> I'm still liking how your TTTF looks.


Very good points. That reminds me that I will need to brush up on the blitz for next year.

The fescue is bouncing back from the lower HOC like a champ. It is already time to cut it again if I am to maintain a lower cut-but I don't have time and my mower is broken :lol: 
Must be the cooler weather, rain, and d-thatch putting in work.
I'm thinking that the fescue will really be shining in November.


----------



## social port

Was able to get a used replacement part for my mower today, so it is repaired and back in business.

Took the Echo to the bermuda warzone today. Cut everything down to dirt (but left any green bermuda that i saw).
Used the lowest setting on the mower to 'scalp' over large bare areas. 
Raked and bagged all debris from the dead areas. That wore me out.

Mowed half of front yard, around 3.25 inches, bagged clippings.

I hope to finish mowing the rest of the lawn tomorrow. It would be ideal if I could make my final gly app then, but I am doubtful that I'll have the time needed.

Temps and humidity are back up. It felt really hot out there today. I watered the KBG reno approx 4 times today because it was looking dry.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looking good. Seems like very even coverage.


----------



## Budstl

@social port just when we think we fall temps are about to start, they shoot right back up. Starting tomorrow i think us in stl will be upper 80s to low 90s until next friday. Then it does appear and hopefully so we'll be in the mid 70s.


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## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Looking good. Seems like very even coverage.


Thanks, SNOWBOB. It has taken a long time, but the reno areas are beginning to resemble a lawn. I'm mostly satisfied with the turnout. Having more seed would have helped with the effects from the washout; and weed control has been poor. But otherwise, ok.

We are getting absolutely hammered with rain right now. Those little sprouts are having a lot of adversity to withstand.

@Budstl similar pattern here. Cooler for three days, and now we are back up to upper 80s and high humidity. No projection on when the temp may break again. Higher temps and the effects from the hurricane have me reconsidering seed down for this weekend. I could certainly use the extra prep time if I did delay.

But do you remember how the spring seem to pass by everyone this year? I'm thinking that fall may be quick, and we may be looking at lower temps sooner than usual this year. That's my worrisome hunch, anyway.


----------



## social port

The front and side yard have been mowed down to 3 inches

Ran pull-behind dethatcher on back yard. Still need to mow it down to 3.5 and bag the dead grass. I'm really considering NOT using the dethatcher on the front and side yard. I'm worried about weed seeds. If anyone has a strong opinion here, please let me know. Seed to soil contact might suffer somewhat if I don't dethatch.

Debris from dead areas has been raked and bagged. Some use of garden weasel as well, but would like to use this more.

Bermuda has been hit with final gly app.

Tank is loaded for blanket gly app for reno areas in front and side yard.

Added compost and extra dirt to bare area beside driveway.

Got my MP 3000s. They are assembled and ready to perform. Still a few uncertainties about sprinkler placement.

I've decided to delay seeding. For the next 7 days, temps are consistently between 89 and 68. And really muggy. I would rather risk low germination rate than disease (especially susceptible with stress from lower cut). I didn't want to do it this way, but it is the best decision.

New seeding date for next Friday. That will give me time to get down N Ext apps and spread some extra dirt. I also hope to trial run my sprinkler placement.


----------



## social port

Finished blanket gly apps. Anticipating possible spot spraying before seeding.

Finished mowing back yard. Had to double cut to get the dead grass pulled up by the dethatcher.

While mowing, I noticed some seedheads-4 spikes branching out diagonally. The mark of Bermuda. I thought that I had missed some. Ive never been so happy to see crabgrass in my life. I just pulled the plants up and went on with my day.

I know that I've said that fescue at 4.5 looks good. But I sure am liking the lower cut fescue. It looks great!


----------



## pennstater2005

Do you think you've eliminated all the Bermuda or are you afraid to utter those words!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Do you think you've eliminated all the Bermuda or are you afraid to utter those words!


I think that I've eliminated everything that I hit this summer. But it is entirely possible that I've missed areas. Three of the plants developed seedheads this summer as well. It is probably common bermuda, which, I believe, makes the seeds viable. So...I may have a good number of viable bermuda seeds in the lawn. I would like to reassure myself that, if I can make them sit without germinating for 2-3 years, I'll be in the clear. But, in reality, bermuda seedheads can probably remain viable for 19,000 years.

All of this is to say that I may have a full-on side yard reno next year. That is a possibility. But so is Pylex.


----------



## social port

I raked the backyard today to remove the dead grass that was missed by my double-cut mow yesterday.

At this point, I'm pretty well sold on NOT using the tow-behind dethatcher for the rest of the yard. The threat of spreading weed seeds is real, and right now I have no confidence in Scotts fert with meso.
I will have a decent comparison: Backyard with dethatching vs front and side yard with no dethatching. I can compare (albeit very casually) germination and weed pressure, and then make a more informed decision next year about the use of the dethatcher.

Also, today is the first day that I've considered pulling the plug on operation Midnight. The dallisgrass is getting out of hand. It is BAD. I'll post some pictures later.

These reno areas were fallowed. There weren't many weeds in the reno area to begin with (before my fescue kill). Perhaps I didn't fallow long enough? Perhaps I should have scalped earlier? Is this an effect of the dethather? Did the mesotrione get washed away (I haven't seen a single dallisgrass plant bleached)? Obviously, I'm just looking for an answer on how the dallisgrass (and a few other weeds) could be so bad. In growing bluegrass, I thought my obstacle would be disease and heat. I could not have anticipated such a problem with weeds--something that is relatively easy to control with the right strategies.


----------



## social port

Well...I just had the bright idea to check the tenacity label: Tenacity is not labeled to control dallisgrass.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Well...I just had the bright idea to check the tenacity label: Tenacity is not labeled to control dallisgrass.


How long have you been treating it with Tenacity? You know if the Bermuda comes back, I hope it doesn't, there is the artificial turf thread. Sometimes that doesn't sound like a bad idea :lol:


----------



## social port

Here are the reno areas before the reno 
NMA


Midnight


In the Midnight section, there was some dallisgrass, but I killed it off at least one month before I even started the reno.

Now...

I've circled some of the dallisgrass infestation. The NMA section isn't so bad


But the Midnight... :crying:


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 I used two blanket gly apps for the reno. Tenacity was used one time - at seed down, mixed with Scott's fert - for preM purposes.


----------



## pennstater2005

Without looking anything up, can dallisgrass ever be hand pulled or will it spread or too deeply rooted? I feel like I have some of that throughout my yard.


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 by the way, bermuda would just grow through the artificial turf on its way to get more sunlight.


----------



## social port

I've been pulling what I can reach, but they are just babies. I believe dallisgrass has rhizomes, but it can be pulled if you are lucky enough to get the roots. But I could be wrong about that.

Dallisgrass has a recognizable seedhead. That is one of the best ways for ID, as it has several look-alikes


----------



## pennstater2005

That is amazing that with all you put down the dallisgrass made it through.


----------



## g-man

Pull the dalligrass. Let the kbg grow and if the dalligrass returns, just hit it with round up.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Pull the dalligrass. Let the kbg grow and if the dalligrass returns, just hit it with round up.


g-man, I can't pull the dallisgrass without walking on the KBG. The vast majority of the Midnight is still pouting. 
Do you recommend walking on the pouting Midnight in order to get that dallisgrass?


----------



## g-man

Walk? Just levitate.

How many days since germination?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Walk? Just levitate.
> 
> How many days since germination?


g-man, I can't levitate around the bluegrass. I get too excited when I see it, so everytime I lift up, I lose focus and then come back down. It's frustrating.

There are two germination periods due to a reseed. 
18 days since first round of germination.
8 days since second round of germination.


----------



## social port

Used my new 'aeration fork' today. Thanks to @Ridgerunner for introducing it to me and for the literature on aeration.

The fork went into most areas pretty easily, but there were a few suspect areas where the fork would not go more than two inches or so (I guess air-8 has some limits even with three apps??). Using the fork is a real workout, but I really like the process as well as being able to target certain areas while leaving other areas undisturbed.

Sprayed high rate of air-8 (~9 oz/k), and moderate rates of RGS (~ 5 oz/k) and humic 12 (~5 oz/k) to the entire yard. I waited all day for the rain to wash it into the soil, but the rain never came. It was overcast and about 82, so all should be ok. Rain is expected tomorrow. Then, high temps return for several more days.

In the next couple of days, I'm going to put on some old socks and pull some dallisgrass out of the Midnight reno.


----------



## social port

I've been pulling dallisgrass out of the bluegrass. Slow process. Up to two grocery bags full of dallisgrass.
The KBG seems to be shrugging off my weight, no problem. But I'm gentle-walking around in socks.

Noticed that part of the midnight side has formed a black, hard crust. Probably a drainage issue? Not good.

Most of the NMA has moved beyond pout. I could be mowing soon. Parts of the midnight are post pout ( I think).

Set the sprinklers for the side yard up. Chained 3 MP 3000s together. They won't quite cover the area needed when chained together. I need to put 1-2 Additional sprinklers (for a total of five) in the side yard for the overseed this weekend.


----------



## social port

continued picking out dallisgrass from the Midnight reno today.

Spot sprayed fescue reno areas with glyphosate one more time--mostly for wild garlic and a few broadleaf weeds.

I've also been throwing extra dirt into spots that are not level with the rest of the lawn (low-lying). Most recently, I've been mixing the dirt with compost. These tend to be areas that also have drainage issues. Between AIR-8, spade aeration, and the compost, maybe these areas will drain better. More is _good-er_? Probably not, but in this case I'm willing to try multiple modes of attack.

Temps are in the 90s, and it's very humid. Relentless sunlight. Soaked the KBG with an impact sprinkler today (I got the impression that it liked this).

I'm glad that I waited to overseed. Rain and a cool down (down to 85)are projected for multiple days next week.


----------



## FlyMike

I know I'm late to the game, but I'm looking forward to watching your KBG progress. Everything else is looking good. :thumbup:

I'm with you in the shorter cut TTTF. I keep mine as tall as I can but I have been slowly lowering it for my overseed and I've liked the way it looks.


----------



## social port

FlyMike said:


> I know I'm late to the game, but I'm looking forward to watching your KBG progress. Everything else is looking good. :thumbup:
> 
> I'm with you in the shorter cut TTTF. I keep mine as tall as I can but I have been slowly lowering it for my overseed and I've liked the way it looks.


Hey, Mike. Mine won't stay low! Every time I try to get ahead for the overseed by lowering HOC, the grass just springs back up in 2-3 days, almost like it is spring. It looks like I am going to be mowing every day until I seed.


----------



## social port

Finally got all of the dallisgrass out of the KBG



I was planning to dump it all to take a picture, but then I decided that it would be a pain putting all that stuff back into bags.

I really hope the dallisgrass doesn't come back. Hand pulling that much dallisgrass was not fun.

Didn't get to mow today. That's ok. Gonna take the grass from long-haired hippie to buzz-cut recruit tomorrow. 50 percent chance of rain for the next seven days. 
That sounds good, except I need to get all my mowing done before any rainfall. I may just mow the whole yard tomorrow and seed if I have time. Fert and peat could then wait until the following day.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Finally got all of the dallisgrass out of the KBG
> 
> 
> 
> I was planning to dump it all to take a picture, but then I decided that it would be a pain putting all that stuff back into bags.
> 
> I really hope the dallisgrass doesn't come back. Hand pulling that much dallisgrass was not fun.
> 
> Didn't get to mow today. That's ok. Gonna take the grass from long-haired hippie to buzz-cut recruit tomorrow. 50 percent chance of rain for the next seven days.
> That sounds good, except I need to get all my mowing done before any rainfall. I may just mow the whole yard tomorrow and seed if I have time. Fert and peat could then wait until the following day.


Nice work! Hand pulling can be a pain but sometimes it's nice just seeing stuff gone right away.


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 it helped to focus on the small patch of plants in my immediate vision rather than try to keep track of my progress and how many more I had to pull.


----------



## social port

I blocked off this morning for mowing. The rain was supposed to begin this afternoon, but it has been raining since 7am, possibly earlier.
It's steady rain, too. Like, Oregon rain. Seattle, Washington. I don't know. It is completely overcast and wet. There's no way I'm going to get any mowing done today.

But it is prime, I mean _prime_, rain for keeping grass seed nice and happy.

I am very tempted to take advantage of the rain by seeding now and using my Scott's fert with meso. I could do this, no problem, in my fescue reno areas. But for the rest of the yard? The grass is high. Maybe 4 inches, possibly more. And I need to rake it a little. If I risked seeding today, I would have to mow another day, after it dries some. I cannot accurately predict when that will be. And then there is the issue of the seed and fert getting into the soil vs sucked up by the mower.
Yeah, this is sounding like a bad idea.

On the other hand, if I could get the seed and fert into the soil and let the rain work its magic, I might be able to time it so that the seed is three or so days into being watered while I am making my 2.5 or so inch cut. That would certainly knock the existing grass back enough to open the soil to sunlight--and right about when the little seeds are ready to start sprouting up.

If anyone has any thoughts on my rule-breaking idea, I'll certainly listen.


----------



## pennstater2005

I agree it sounds like a bad idea. 3 or 4 days after seeding to mow I just don't see how that wouldn't disturb the seed or at least a fair amount of the seed. That light, steady rain makes it very tempting though!


----------



## social port

Thanks for the feedback, pennstater.
A reel mower might be handy in this situation. Less suction (I assume), plus a bagging option.


----------



## social port

The sun broke through around 1:00 today. By 4:00, the grass was still damp, but dry enough to mow when in a pinch.
For the record, myradar was more accurate than the predictions by the local meteorologists. Their radar suggested rain all afternoon, whereas myradar was showing the skies clearing up this afternoon. Not bad for a sub$5 app!

Mowed the front yard. It was nearly 6 inches. I mowed down to 3 inches, and it took two passes. I tried 2.5, but no. No way.
Mowed side yard. Took it down to 2.5 inches. It took 3 passes.
Mowed half of back yard, but it was getting too late to finish. 
While cleaning underneath the mower deck, I had a near-encounter with a skunk. I smelled him coming, bolted up, pulled my mower inside, and then shut the garage door. I never saw him, but I must have startled him. 3 hours later; the garage still stinks!

My plan for the weekend really depends on the rain, but tentatively,

Tomorrow I finish mowing the backyard. Then it's seeding time. Then, I set up sprinklers.
I'm waiting until Sunday evening for fertilizer with mesotrione and peat. I am very, very tempted to skip the fert and meso, but weed pressure is higher than I would like. I will probably make a last-minute final decision Sunday evening.


----------



## social port

Edged and trimmed all areas next to barriers. Finished spreading extra dirt and compost.
Finished mowing back yard. For the sake of comparison, I have one area mowed at 2 inches. The other area is around 3 inches.
2

3


Bulk of the seeding is now done.







5 lbs/k front yard. 5 lbs/k side yard (both of them). 4 lbs/k back yard. Going to hand toss extra seed in fescue 'reno' areas.

Now I'm off to use the garden weasel and my zero turn to get that seed into the soil.


----------



## pennstater2005

Finally!! Seed day :thumbup:


----------



## samjonester

Nothing beats the smell when you open that bag of grass seed! What's the weather looking like for you next week?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Finally!! Seed day :thumbup:


Yes, sir! I'm excited to have a more uniform lawn in the front and for the bermuda warfield to be repaired.



samjonester said:


> Nothing beats the smell when you open that bag of grass seed! What's the weather looking like for you next week?


You've got that right. 
Temps are finally going to be below 90, with most days not exceeding 85. 50% chance of rain almost every day. Looks like I will have a little help getting the sprouts up. It is perfect timing.

I wasn't able to finish getting the seed into the soil. Last week, I cleaned up most of the debris from the reno areas, but when I mowed yesterday, a lot of clippings went into the bare areas. It is taking me a long time to repair the seedbed, but I am halfway there. I'm going to get an early start in the morning since I will not be using any loud equipment.

I've decided not to use Scott's fert with meso in the overseed areas. I will use it in the reno areas only.


----------



## samjonester

Nice! Looking forward to seeing the results. Skipping the starter on the overseeded spots to prevent surge growth in the existing grass?


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Temps are finally going to be below 90, with most days not exceeding 85. 50% chance of rain almost every day. Looks like I will have a little help getting the sprouts up. It is perfect timing.


No more 90s here for about 2 weeks now, and probably no more this year. You know what most of my high temps have been this week? 70s. Even some 60s. October is supposed to be cooler than normal in the Northeast this year, so that probably means a lot of highs in the low 60s are coming next month. Good grass weather, but germination and early growth from seed is going to be slow.


----------



## social port

samjonester said:


> Nice! Looking forward to seeing the results. Skipping the starter on the overseeded spots to prevent surge growth in the existing grass?


Yes, exactly. It was a tough decision, though, because I expect to have substantial weed pressure. In addition, I've got a lot of irregularly shaped bare areas where I need to use the mesotrione in the fertilizer. A blanket app to the whole yard takes out the guesswork of how much to apply. Without the blanket app, I'll pretty well be eyeballing the meso app to the bare areas. The Scott's wizz spreader will come in handy.



Green said:


> Even some 60s. October is supposed to be cooler than normal in the Northeast this year, so that probably means a lot of highs in the low 60s are coming next month. Good grass weather, but germination and early growth from seed is going to be slow.


The growth was incredibly slow during my reno last year, and I attributed the slow pace to the cooler temps. I seeded around 9/22 last year, so I wanted to seed 1-2 earlier this year to help get the grass established quickly and enjoy it before winter. I had to wait until this weekend, though. Last week's humidity was unreal, and my grass would have been a sitting duck with tons of water and no fungicide.

The sun is starting to break. I'm off to the garden weasel!


----------



## social port

I've spent a disproportionate amount of time working on the seedbed this year. All bare areas have been hit hard with the garden weasel.





I'm about to run the zero turn over the overseed areas. I'll probably just stick to a rake for the reno areas.

One other note: I had heavy machinery traffic in the backyard this spring. The soil has been hard since that time. 
By this point I've used 3-4 heavy applications of air-8, along with 1-2 low apps of RGS. I have also used the heave aeration method with a fork.

I can now get a 12 inch screwdriver into the soil with very little effort. Substantial change.


----------



## social port

Ran over the overseed on my zero turn (except for front yard-I just left it alone).
Raked all bare areas.
Spread fert with meso on bare areas
Starting spreading compost and noticed an ominous cloud.
It is raining so hard right now that there is a sheet of water on the road.
It is bad. Real bad. It looks foggy outside the rain is so large, thick, and heavy.
I'm probably going to need to order more seed from Mr Hogan, but I'll assess the damage later. I may need to put the fert + mesotrione down again as well.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port That is a great looking seed bed though. Work the extra effort.

Can't believe the rain came that hard and fast. Hope it isn't as bad as it seems.


----------



## social port

Thanks, pennstater.

There was definitely some washout. Water was pooling in most of my reno areas, and there were lots of floaters.

I had saved 10-15 pounds of seed in the event that an area did not grow as expected. So, I used the rest of the seed on areas where washout was the greatest. It was difficult to determine how severe the washout was: I know that I saw quite a bit of seed collected at the perimeter, but who knows how much actually stayed in place. 
I also added a very light layer of peat moss to some of the bare areas where I could still see seed on top of the soil. I used my aeration fork on some of the areas where water was still standing (an hour after the downpour).

It is raining again now, but moderately so.

I was really trying to perfect the bare-soil grow this year. That is why I spent so many hours on seeding. I wanted to get things coming up about the same time and growing at the same rate. 
My process was
seeding with a broadcast spreader
using the garden weasel to open the soil a little and to cover up some seed.
seeding by hand over the open-up soil
then raking everything around

That took such a long time (with the bulk of time spent with the garden weasel), but I really thought it was worth it, because, man, it looked so good.

In hindsight, I would have been better off by giving half the effort and attention to detail. Maybe rake a little and a quick once-over with the weasel, followed by rolling it over with the zero turn. Had I done it this way, I would have had more time for peat, and I could have also put down my m-binder.

I'm calling the job done at this point no matter what I see. I just need to set up my sprinklers. I'll reassess in 2-2 1/2 weeks and order more seed if needed.

One really positive note: During this entire process--from mowing the grass down low to raking everything around--I did not see even one hint of bermuda that escaped my wrath.


----------



## pennstater2005

Sounds like you did everything to keep the seed in place as best as possible. I agree with the water and wait approach. Otherwise you might be putting down unnecessary seed.


----------



## social port

I'm about 6 days since seed down for the TTTF. I'm in the prime window for germination: I should have widespread germination now, but it is very minimal--like less than 5 percent. 
I haven't measured, but according to a national weather website, about 12 inches of rain has come down since I've seeded. Mostly heavy downpours, with a little light rain here-and-there.
And there has been about 5 hours of direct sunlight since I've seeded. Clouds and clouds for days.

It was supposed to be sunny today, but it is still overcast and foggy. Maybe tomorrow?
I expect to see more germination 1-2 days after the sun returns. Then, I will be faced with the decision to order more seed or to be patient.
I also have the option of raking seed that has been cast to the perimeter back into place. Such as here (near the back of the bare area--a mountain ridge of seed, dead matter, peat moss, and soil.



The bluegrass seems to be doing ok, but it needs sunlight. NMA is out of pout, as best as I can tell, and the Midnight is moving a little as well. There are new dallisgrass shoots that I will pull once the soil dries some.
I'm thinking about mowing and fertilizing soon. Very light rate of a balanced fertilizer.
I'll try to get a shot of the bluegrass and then post later.


----------



## Budstl

Man @social port i hope you start getting some good germination. Sounds like you have had a rough go at it. Sucks when the weather won't cooperate. Hopefully you get a nice long fall before the temps really drop.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Man @social port i hope you start getting some good germination. Sounds like you have had a rough go at it. Sucks when the weather won't cooperate. Hopefully you get a nice long fall before the temps really drop.


I'm hoping that the seed is going to make my current worry look foolish. We had about 10 minutes of sun today (a brief opening in the cloud structures), and there should be lots of sunshine tomorrow. I am going to water only once today and very briefly at that. By Monday morning, I'm going to see green for miles (here's to a positive outlook).

Here is the bluegrass. It has been 36 days since seeding and about 28-30 days since germination. Some uneven growth. Part of that is due to reseeding the Midnight after washout. Part, but not all.
NMA


Midnight 


Mowing and fertilizing ASAP.


----------



## social port

Today is the first day since seed-down that I have had a full watering schedule. It felt good to mind the sprinklers all day; it felt like I was moving in the right direction for this fall grow.

More germination. I know it's not much, but it's an explosion compared to yesterday. 


Here is the side yard where I am repairing large areas that were infected with Bermuda. It looks like washout was not as bad in these areas, so I am hopeful that these areas will be back up and running soon 




More watering tomorrow. More sunshine tomorrow!


----------



## pennstater2005

KBG looks like it is coming in pretty good though. That looks crazy where you nuked the bermuda.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That looks crazy where you nuked the bermuda.


The fescue is coming in more evenly in those dead bermuda areas than in any other area of the lawn. Some decomposing bermuda is soon going to be supporting some thriving fescue :nod:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That looks crazy where you nuked the bermuda.
> 
> 
> 
> The fescue is coming in more evenly in those dead bermuda areas than in any other area of the lawn. Some decomposing bermuda is soon going to be supporting some thriving fescue :nod:
Click to expand...

Nice!!


----------



## social port

Ok, a member from team washout reporting in. It ain't pretty.
I've needed to mow for about 4-5 days, but my mower broke. I've got it back up and running now, and I'm hoping to make it happ'n captain tomorrow.

The overseeding aspect of my work this year turned out relatively well. I believe that all of the thin blades below represent new grass. As you can see, it is substantial.



The reno areas were impacted by the multiple heavy downpours that occurred the day of and the days following seeding.
Some areas are doing ok-such as the dead Bermuda areas. The new growth is easy to spot as it is lower than the grass surrounding it.



But then, there are areas such as this. :shock: :shock:







Earlier this week, I ordered 25 pounds of seed from Hogan's. It arrived today, and I will get it down ASAP.
I've got powdery mildew creeping around the front yard as well as some BP or DS taking hold in a shady area of my front yard.
Even though I will be putting new seed down, I'm going to shake my watering schedule up a bit. It is nearly 90 and very humid here, and the damp grass over night is causing problems. I'm planning to use a 1-2 x per day schedule with long watering times to help strike a balance between disease and optimal germination.


----------



## Powhatan

Great job keeping after it. :fight:


----------



## social port

Powhatan said:


> Great job keeping after it. :fight:


 :thumbup:


----------



## social port

It was a lawn day for me. Spread 20 or so lbs of seed in an effort to pull the reno areas through. Even where growth is good, it is thin. 
I'm gonna get this lawn back up and better than ever.

Dilemma: There was some baby grass even in the barest areas. I really didn't want to just throw the seed on the ground. I couldn't use my garden weasel because I would destroy the baby grass-although that garden weasel and seeding are like PB and J.

Solution: I took my spade fork/aeration fork and made little holes in the ground. It took forever (hours and hours and hours), but it should be an improvement over the seed just sitting on the dirt.



Really hot today-low 90s, I believe, and very muggy. Breeze almost nonexistent. I only watered twice today. My watering intervention is paying off so far. The BP or DS that I spotted seems not to be spreading. The powdery mildew is, but it is already clearing up in some areas.

Mowing overseed areas tomorrow.


----------



## social port

Mowed yesterday. The grass looked overgrown, but that really wasn't the case. Cutting at 3.5, I only had to empty the bag of clippings a couple of times.

When I did my overseed, I mowed half of the backyard down the 3 inches. The other half was mowed at 2 inches. Comparing the two sections now, the rate of growth is about the same: There is still one inch difference between the two plots. Rate of growth was the same. This suggests that cutting at 3 and cutting at 2 were equally 'shocking' in terms of how much a substantial cut affects growth. It is important to note, however, that the height of the grass when I did the overseed cut was around 6 inches. Grass maintained at 4 inches and below might respond differently to a 3 vs 2 inch cut.
It is too early to conclude whether new grass is coming in better in either of the two sections.

There is some kind of tropical storm in the Atlantic Ocean, and Tennessee is supposed to be affected by wind and rain on Wednesday and Thursday. I haven't heard anything about downpours yet, but I am attentive. I have quite a bit of M binder left (too bad I didn't spring for Turbo Tack again. I much prefer it).
In an effort to speed up germination before the rain, I put a healthy layer of peat moss down in bare-ish areas that I reseeded the other day. Hopefully, the bulk of my new seed will have germinated by Thursday.


----------



## Green

Can't believe you still have 90s! We have been in the 70s and even some high 60s until today...when we hit 80 and a dewpoint of 69 and used th AC for the first time in like 2 weeks this evening! Felt kind of like Summer again.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Can't believe you still have 90s! We have been in the 70s and even some high 60s until today...when we hit 80 and a dewpoint of 69 and used th AC for the first time in like 2 weeks this evening! Felt kind of like Summer again.


I can't either. And it's been the type of heat that absolutely zaps you -- it is oppressive. I'm surprised that my grass is doing as well as it is. It is due a break. That break is just around the corner, thankfully. Temperatures are going down 8+ degrees starting this Friday, so this week may be the final phase of heat for this year.

Today, I applied a quarter pound of NPK to my KBG. 
The NMA is looking ok, but the Midnight is struggling. Growth is still very minimal in the Midnight area.
Both areas have substantial weed pressure -- oxalis, some flower-looking broadleaf varieties, dallisgrass, and some shallow-rooted, fast-growing grassy weed that I thought was Nutsedge, but isn't. I'm afraid I'm going to need to move in with glypho and some triclopyr quite soon, especially since I am fertilizing now. Perhaps this weekend?
I noticed some small cans of glypho designed for small, targeted applications. I may pick some of that up the next time I'm at the Big Box. I'm not much of a painter.

I'm seeing dallisgrass in the fescue reno areas too, so that is another challenge to tackle.

At the end of the day, though, no bermuda, no problem.


----------



## social port

Myradar is indicating that Tenn will be getting some of the bands from the hurricane in the next few hours. 
I put down some m-binder. I believe that some of my recently planted seed has germinated, but certainly not all. I'm hoping that the rain will not be terribly heavy.

My reno areas continue to be plagued by dallisgrass-both the fescue and KBG. I'm trying to manage by hand pulling, but there are so many plants.

I'm gonna to cross post this in the weed ID thread. I've got two plants that I can't quite ID. The first is baby nimblewill, I think. It is about the same color as my tall fescue, and it is growing upright. It looks like the fescue, all except the leaves. I thought it might be late for nimblewill to be making a run, but I really don't know.





Then there is this fellow, prevalent in my bluegrass reno, but in the fescue some as well. It pulls up easily. It grows more quickly than the bluegrass and perhaps the fescue. It blends in very well, though, outside of the height difference. I thought it might be nutsedge, but I haven't been able to see a triangular stem.
Here is a younger one 








And here is one that is more developed


----------



## pennstater2005

Dang! You're having a rough go on this one SP. How much season do you have left?


----------



## Budstl

@social port do those have clasping auricles? It's a little hard to tell in the photo, but to my eye the last 3 photos do.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Dang! You're having a rough go on this one SP. How much season do you have left?


I don't know. Maybe until December? Speaking in terms of temperature, we are still in summer. Fall temperatures begin at the end of this week; but it looks like it is getting cold quickly, with 30s predicted for next week. I was hoping to get 1-2 milorganite apps down before it got too cold. I'm not sure how much I like milo apps if it's going to be that chilly. We'll see.
My fescue hasn't had any nitrogen since...March, I believe.

There is only so much one can do about the weather (e.g., washout, uncooperative temps, no fall season?), but I think I should have been more aggressive with my reno areas. I fallowed every area, but when I later ran the garden weasel through the soil, I must have brought dallisgrass seeds up by the spoonful. I should have broken my soil up a month or so before I seeded and then fallowed under those conditions. Had I done that, I believe that I would have avoided at least some of the difficulty I've had this season.


----------



## Mrotatori

I would love to know what those are too. I am seeing a lot in my kbg reno. I think they are nutaedge, but not positive. I pull them by hand but sprayed one area that had a lot with weed b gon that includes killing nutsedge. That area started to die. I prefer to hand pull.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> @social port do those have clasping auricles? It's a little hard to tell in the photo, but to my eye the last 3 photos do.


Bud, that may be the key to this ID. Those pictures were not ideal, though I spent a good while trying to get better shots.

I want to say that it looked like there was a smooth, continuous auricle, if that makes sense. I guess I would say that they were clasping, but not claw-like. I'd better take another sample tomorrow and put it under a magnifying glass.


----------



## social port

Mrotatori said:


> I would love to know what those are too. I am seeing a lot in my kbg reno. I think they are nutaedge, but not positive. I pull them by hand but sprayed one area that had a lot with weed b gon that includes killing nutsedge. That area started to die. I prefer to hand pull.


Yeah, I saw them weeks ago, and my mind immediately went to some kind of sedge. When looking for the triangular stem, I pulled the tissue apart with my fingers. The shape did not match.

Perhaps a sharp knife would be more reliable. Tomorrow, after I magnify the auricle, I will slice up the stem.


----------



## Budstl

Any rhizomes on those? Hopefully it's not quack. I don't think it's nutsedge. Like you said you didn't see triangular stem. Also it's more yellowish and waxy blade.


----------



## Budstl

@social port this may help you out.

http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2015/03/weed-of-month-for-march-2015-is-tall.html?m=1

Auricles are usually short and blunt but some can also be classified as short-clasping meaning that the auricle may wrap-around the stem but may not fully clasp or cross one another. You may also see small hairs protruding from the auricle.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Any rhizomes on those? Hopefully it's not quack. I don't think it's nutsedge. Like you said you didn't see triangular stem. Also it's more yellowish and waxy blade.


I haven't seen rhizomes, but the plant is young. They might be yet to come ? :|


----------



## Mozart

Hi SP,
Things are looking quite nice overall - congrats!

The smaller plant looks a little like nimblewill to me - is it widespread of just a few plants? Maybe this is some type of tree seedling?

The second weed might be K31 tall fescue. I had K31 in my lawn with long whispy detached auricles.

If the auricles are hairy that supports the K31 theory. The shape of the leaf blades and the veination do not suggest quack - only the auricles IMO.

I'm not sure what to make of the crown, that's a bit different than k31 crowns that I've seen; however my k31 is old and your grassy weed is young.

Can you get better pictures of the auricles?


----------



## social port

@Mozart Thanks for weighing in! I appreciate the feedback.



Mozart said:


> The smaller plant looks a little like nimblewill to me - is it widespread of just a few plants? Maybe this is some type of tree seedling?


Yeah, I am about 90% sure it is nimblewill, though I would absolutely welcome tree seedlings. It is spreading very quickly. I should be able to treat it with tenacity, but I can't right now because all of the plants are surrounded by baby fescue.



Mozart said:


> The second weed might be K31 tall fescue. I had K31 in my lawn with long whispy detached auricles.
> 
> If the auricles are hairy that supports the K31 theory. The shape of the leaf blades and the veination do not suggest quack - only the auricles IMO.
> 
> I'm not sure what to make of the crown, that's a bit different than k31 crowns that I've seen; however my k31 is old and your grassy weed is young.


KY 31 is a really good thought. The plants in question are growing in an area where ky31 was nearly predominant. 
It sure does not look like KY31 to me, but it seems that there is quite a bit of variation in appearance. I'm going to pluck some KY31 that I have growing in my side yard to compare.

I've got a new sample pulled to get a better picture, but the parts of the plant are so small that I cannot make anything out clearly enough. I'm going to get a magnifying glass at some point this evening. I will get a good shot of the auricles.

As of right now, the leading candidates are annual rye, quack quack, KY 31, and Nutsedge. I'll take two of those any day of the week. The other two need to leave town ("Get off my lawn").

Thanks everyone for the assistance. I'll post more pictures ASAP.

In other news, no washout overnight! And my new seeds exploded last night. Little grass babies abound. More are likely on the way tomorrow.


----------



## social port

By the time I got a magnifying glass yesterday, my sample had wilted too much.

Got a fresh one today. 
First, this plant does not match my ky31. 
This plant does not have a triangular stem-so it is not a sedge.
It has clasping auricles.
I cannot see a rhizome. 
I cannot see a ligule.
I cannot see any hairs.
It does not have any purple coloring in the stem-so probably not annual rye.
That leaves quack, or some other rye or wheat grass that is not common. 
If anyone has other ideas, please let me know.

Through the looking glass...


----------



## Sinclair

My guess is annual rye. Ugly bugger.

http://turfid.ncsu.edu/csPagedPdField.aspx?PlantID=LOLMU


----------



## social port

Sinclair said:


> My guess is annual rye. Ugly bugger.
> 
> http://turfid.ncsu.edu/csPagedPdField.aspx?PlantID=LOLMU


Sinclair, you may be correct. Based on the characteristics given in that link, I may be overemphasizing the importance of a purple stem. 
Yes, ugly, but better than quack.
I think I am going to assume annual rye until I am forced to conclude otherwise.


----------



## g-man

Bermuda.


----------



## pennstater2005

g-man said:


> Bermuda.


Not cool @g-man not cool :lol:


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Bermuda.


 :lol:


----------



## g-man

It looks like Elymus repens to me instead of annual rye. In the third image, I see new grow, is it a different plant?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> It looks like Elymus repens to me instead of annual rye. In the third image, I see new grow, is it a different plant?


AKA quackgrass? 
I did not study the suspected second plant, but I do think it was attached.


----------



## g-man

If they share the same roots, then it is quackgrass.


----------



## Budstl

I sure hope it's not quack socialport. Start making sacrifices to the lawn gods.


----------



## social port

Just went to pull another sample to see if I could find anything suggestive of new plant growth from rhizomes. I couldn't find any of the suspect plants! I've either pulled them all, or they are blending in too much at this point.
I fertilized the bluegrass a few days ago, so I am not sure that I can depend on a height difference between the bluegrass and the possible quack at this point. We will see.

While I wait, I will think about what I want to do with the new grassy weed I found this evening: goosegrass!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

In the interest of preserving the integrity of the rest of my lawn, killing off my KBG reno areas is starting to seem reasonable. 
I'm not sure that I have enough time to fallow and then seed again before temps get too cold.

If I decide to keep it, purchasing pylex is justifiable at this point. It treats bermuda, dallisgrass, goosegrass, and nimblewill. AFAIK, it won't help with the quack, if that is what I have.


----------



## pennstater2005

I've been clicking on this thread so often that on my iPhone it's created a frequently visited icon named "SP 2018 thread" :lol:



Bottom left!


----------



## social port




----------



## pennstater2005

^ Maybe it's time to reevaluate my life choices..............

Nah I'm good.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Nah I'm good.


Me too :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Put down about .4lb/k of potassium today via muriate of potash. Light rain showers watered it in.

Pulled some dalligrass in several fescue reno sections.

Wanted to get a app of Milo down today, but my big box is sold out. I'm going out of town on Tuesday, so that will allow me to widen my search.


----------



## social port

I found some milorganite and picked it up.

At some point I realized that I had three iterations of Milo in the garage: 5-2-0, 5-4-0, and 6-4-0. Pretty cool.


----------



## social port

My fescue has lost some of the richness in its color. It needs nitrogen. 
I applied 1/2 lb of N per k today via Milorganite. I knew I wouldn't get any K from this round of applications. That's why I used the muriate of potash the other day. 
In about 12 days or so, I plan to use a balanced fertilizer at 1/2 pound of NPK per k.

I also applied .30 lbs/k of NPK to the bluegrass today.

I also include some pictures since my fescue reseeding effort from earlier this month. It's not what I was looking for, but I feel like I should count my blessings at this point.
10/4


10/17


I've had some growth next to my driveway as well



Front yard washout areas
10/6


10/17


10/4

10/4


10/17

10/17


Side yard, the part that is really lagging
10/4

10/17


I saved about 5 lbs of seed. I may use it for this area. This is also where the nimblewill outbreak is.


----------



## pennstater2005

Whoa! That is filling in pretty good. I can't believe that's just 2 weeks difference in those pics. Nimblewill is nasty. It took me 3 apps of Tenacity to knock it out completely.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I found some milorganite and picked it up.
> 
> At some point I realized that I had three iterations of Milo in the garage: 5-2-0, 5-4-0, and 6-4-0. Pretty cool.


Nice!!!!! Post it here!!!!
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3340


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Whoa! That is filling in pretty good. I can't believe that's just 2 weeks difference in those pics. Nimblewill is nasty. It took me 3 apps of Tenacity to knock it out completely.


3 apps? That is not what I was hoping for, but I am now starting to remember the tenacity apps in your thread.

Dang. I like it one-and-done. The possible pylex group buy make help a little there.

pennstater, did you see your nimblewill sprouting, or was the plant mature and spreading by the time you noticed it?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I found some milorganite and picked it up.
> 
> At some point I realized that I had three iterations of Milo in the garage: 5-2-0, 5-4-0, and 6-4-0. Pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nice!!!!! Post it here!!!!
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=3340
Click to expand...

 :lol: I thought someone would enjoy that. I'll post, for sure :thumbup:


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa! That is filling in pretty good. I can't believe that's just 2 weeks difference in those pics. Nimblewill is nasty. It took me 3 apps of Tenacity to knock it out completely.
> 
> 
> 
> 3 apps? That is not what I was hoping for, but I am now starting to remember the tenacity apps in your thread.
> 
> Dang. I like it one-and-done. The possible pylex group buy make help a little there.
> 
> pennstater, did you see your nimblewill sprouting, or was the plant mature and spreading by the time you noticed it?
Click to expand...

My Nimblewill was very mature. Like seven years mature :lol:


----------



## social port

Goosegrass, nimblewill, dallisgrass, quackgrass...who cares!

It was mow day. And I'm getting my yard back.

I mowed at 3.5, except for the bluegrass (at 3.0). I did not mow my second side yard because so much of it is still establishing.

Front yard









Side yard (Bermuda Warfield)





Backyard



NMA bluegrass mix







Midnight bluegrass







If you are noticing a yellow cast to some of the bluegrass, it is not a artifact of the picture. Both sections of the bluegrass developed areas of yellow just before I began fertilizing. I haven't noticed any obvious lesions, so I assume it's nitrogen deficiency. The problem has improved since I began weekly fertilization (balanced NPK).


----------



## pennstater2005

Thick, lush grass....hell yeah :beer:


----------



## Budstl

Looking great @social port. That kbg is chugging right along. How many more times do you think you are going to get to fertilize? What fescue varieties did you use?


----------



## Green

It's possible that the yellowing (if that's actually what it is) could be rust trying to start. I had the yellowing in late August, and now have full-blown rust. If it's just losing color, it could be what you said.


----------



## FlyMike

Grass is looking great, even the new stuff. I love the short/long look your reno areas have, kind of reminds me of GrassDaddy's Halloween yard shapes last year :lol:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Thick, lush grass....hell yeah :beer:


 :thumbup: yeah, it is coming around. It felt good to mow. I'm seriously thinking about pushmowing 70% of the time next year. So much better than riding.



Budstl said:


> Looking great @social port. That kbg is chugging right along. How many more times do you think you are going to get to fertilize? What fescue varieties did you use?


the areas that get the most shade (from the house and fence) are growing the best-not the full sun areas, as you would expect.

I'm fertilizing the bluegrass about every 7-10 days. Based on trends, I expect to apply every week until the end of November, maybe longer. I remember j4c11 saying something about his bluegrass growing throughout the winter. I'm not sure if he was fertilizing then or not., but I'm going to look into that post soon.

My original fescue mix is ls1200, Cochise iv, and turbo. This year, for my reno areas and my reseed, I used only two: Cochise iv, and raptor iii. The latter is a newer cultivar compared to my other three. I selected for color and BP resistance (someone at Hogan's put me on that trail).



Green said:


> It's possible that the yellowing (if that's actually what it is) could be rust trying to start. I had the yellowing in late August, and now have full-blown rust. If it's just losing color, it could be what you said.


I haven't noticed rust in other parts of the yard, but the bluegrass may be more sensitive. That's a good thought, and I'm going to test for rust tomorrow.


FlyMike said:


> Grass is looking great, even the new stuff. I love the short/long look your reno areas have, kind of reminds me of GrassDaddy's Halloween yard shapes last year :lol:


 That's funny. You can really see the color difference here



I'm hoping that the new stuff greens a bit more before growth stops. In the meantime, maybe I'll call it Frankenlawn for Halloween-also a YouTube reference (LCN's scary mix of warm season grasses).


----------



## social port

Green said:


> It's possible that the yellowing (if that's actually what it is) could be rust trying to start. I had the yellowing in late August, and now have full-blown rust. If it's just losing color, it could be what you said.


Ding, ding, ding. Thank you, Green. Looks like rust. I'm going to keep the low N doses up. 
I'd also like to know where the rust came from. My mower blade is new. Perhaps from under the deck??

Very faint, I know. Kind of peach in color.


----------



## Green

I hate rust! A few months ago, I posted asking what the early stages look like. Didn't get many responses. But then I saw deep yellowing without lesions in late August, and kept an eye on it. A month later, full blown rust. Since your area is about a month later than mine as cool weather, I took an educated guess. The weather conditions you were describing were very similar to ours a month earlier.


----------



## social port

Cool, rainy and overcast here for several days. Today was the first day of sunshine in a while, and temps are back up to highs in the 60s and 70s. I applied .5 lb/k of NPK to the fescue. Applied .3lb/k of NPK to the bluegrass. I'm planning to water it in tomorrow.

The weather has not helped with the rust. I'm hoping that several days of sunshine and the fert will help. I'm really trying to avoid fungicides.

I also sharpened the blades on my push mower and riding mower.

Over the next week, I need to mow and apply humic acid. Weather and free time dependent. I also need to treat some weeds.

I'm also getting ready to round up a few of my grassy weeds. One of them is nimblewill, or so I've suspected. But the supposed nimblewill has been around for a month or so now, and it just doesn't look like the nimblewill I'm familiar with. So, before I hit it with something really hot (in an area with baby fescue), I thought I'd post some more pictures of this plant. 
Does this look familiar to anyone? Nimblewill? Mozart suggested that it could also simply be a tree sapling.


----------



## Green

@social port, I hope it's not...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstegium_vimineum


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, I hope it's not...
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microstegium_vimineum


Green, thanks for the suggestion. I've considered stiltgrass on the road to making an Id. This plant doesn't have the colored mid vein that is associated with stiltgrass. It is possible that the mid vein would not show its color until the plant is more mature ( I don't know), but for now, I am going to say that it is not stiltgrass-which is a good thing.


----------



## Green

@social port, did you see the related grass...whitegrass or cutgrass, that lacks the stripe? Also, apparently Stiltgrass first came into the country in TN. It's in CT now.


----------



## social port

Thanks, @Green . After looking into a few in the leersia family, Virginia cutgrass (aka, white grass, I think) is a real possibility. I'm going to pull a few tomorrow to use for ID. Thank you for the help.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Thanks, @Green . After looking into a few in the leersia family, Virginia cutgrass (aka, white grass, I think) is a real possibility. I'm going to pull a few tomorrow to use for ID. Thank you for the help.


No problem. Hopefully you're on the right track.


----------



## social port

Watered the fertilizer in today. The prills were so large that they did not all dissolve. I found chunks of them resting in pooling water.

I pulled one of the suspect plants. The plants in question do not have the jagged edge associated with whitegrass or ricegrass. Looks like nimblewill is _still_ the best fit.

I was going to use glyphosate, but at this point, I think I may go a safer route and order some tenacity.


----------



## social port

Mowed this evening using a combination of the zero turn and push mower. 
I can't believe how much I prefer the push mower look. Sooo much better than the zero turn.

Back is filling in nicely, but color needs to develop a little more.



Color is great in the front, but all the areas have yet to fill in. Hopefully, my fert app on Sunday will be the push it needs. If not, I'm coming with the humic.


----------



## pennstater2005

Looking great! The smaller width always looks nicer. That's why my next rider will either be 42" or possibly a Timemaster 30" with sulky.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Looking great! The smaller width always looks nicer. That's why my next rider will either be 42" or possibly a Timemaster 30" with sulky.


pennstater, every time I run across one of those 30" Timemasters, I start drooling Homer-style. I've really considered adding it to my arsenal several times, but I never pull the trigger because of that price tag.


----------



## LawnNerd

Yo! @social port Glad to see that KBG looking good! Since we don't get t0o cold, i noticed mine thickened up a little over the winter and took off in the spring. Hoping you get the same results.

I think you're dealing with a Dicot (broadleaf) of a sort. I'd try some straight triclopyr on that. I say that because triclopyr on it's own is one of the least harmful things you can put down on teenage fescue, lol.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great! The smaller width always looks nicer. That's why my next rider will either be 42" or possibly a Timemaster 30" with sulky.
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater, every time I run across one of those 30" Timemasters, I start drooling Homer-style. I've really considered adding it to my arsenal several times, but I never pull the trigger because of that price tag.
Click to expand...

Those Timemasters are about a grand huh? I need to be able to ride because otherwise how does one drink beer or change songs?


----------



## social port

LawnNerd said:


> Yo! @social port Glad to see that KBG looking good! Since we don't get t0o cold, i noticed mine thickened up a little over the winter and took off in the spring. Hoping you get the same results.
> 
> I think you're dealing with a Dicot (broadleaf) of a sort. I'd try some straight triclopyr on that. I say that because triclopyr on it's own is one of the least harmful things you can put down on teenage fescue, lol.


LawnNerd! Good to see you back!
So, you are also doubtful that the plant is nimblewill? I'll take a broadleaf over nimblewill any day of the week. 
This weekend will be dry. I'll move forward with the triclopyr then to clean up this and several other outbreaks. I'm thankful that I never used the glyphosate.

The KBG mix is doing far better than the Midnight. The Midnight is a tough-go during establishment. We'll see how the two areas compare during spring.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great! The smaller width always looks nicer. That's why my next rider will either be 42" or possibly a Timemaster 30" with sulky.
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater, every time I run across one of those 30" Timemasters, I start drooling Homer-style. I've really considered adding it to my arsenal several times, but I never pull the trigger because of that price tag.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Those Timemasters are about a grand huh? I need to be able to ride because otherwise how does one drink beer or change songs?
Click to expand...

 :rofl:
I think that may have made my day.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking great! The smaller width always looks nicer. That's why my next rider will either be 42" or possibly a Timemaster 30" with sulky.
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater, every time I run across one of those 30" Timemasters, I start drooling Homer-style. I've really considered adding it to my arsenal several times, but I never pull the trigger because of that price tag.
Click to expand...

Someday, I'd like to get a Turfmaster--the pro version of the Timemaster, to use on open, non-hilly areas if I still have a fairly large yard like I do now. But that's a Looooong time away. I wonder if they'll still make gas mowers in 20 years, or if everything will be fuel cell.


----------



## social port

@Green My neighbor has a Toro and the quality of cut always looks superb. Between seeing that regularly and watching one too many LCN videos, the Toro brand is on the short list for my next mower (and I think about getting one way, way too much). Would you mind saying why you would opt for the pro/commercial version rather than the Timemaster (consumer version)?

I am really beginning to think seriously about replacing my zero turn with a 30" Timemaster. Mowing would definitely take me longer, but I really like the look that comes from a pushmower. Plus, I would need to maintain only one mower instead of the two that I maintain now.

@pennstater2005 , you could put your beer down at the perimeter. At each pass, you could reach down and getta little sip :nod:


----------



## social port

Finished off my jug of RGS today. 
Applied 7 oz/k today to front yard, side yard, 1/2 of (street) side yard, and backyard, including to KBG.
Applied 7 oz/k of humic acid (Humic 12 GCF) to entire lawn. 
Still have a little humic left. I may just hold onto it until the spring.


----------



## pennstater2005

I was thinking this @social port...


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I was thinking this @social port...


 :lol: :lol: 
With a TLF hat, of course


----------



## Green

@social port, 5 inch max HOC versus 4.25. That's a big difference, and I feel higher top HOC settings are more important the heavier/wider the mower. (Remember LCN'S video on that WorldLawn commercial mower or whatever the brand was that was scalping his St. Aug?).

That and the cool factor and pro engine. :mrgreen:

I would also keep one (or two!) 21 inch mowers for hills and small spots. Lol, I only have one currently!


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Remember LCN'S video on that WorldLawn commercial mower or whatever the brand was that was scalping his St. Aug?


I sure do. I'm going to go back and watch that video now.
HOC is really important to me, so now I am thinking that the pro version might be a better fit for me. I changed the tires on my 21" so that I could get a higher HOC. It would be nice to have a mower that is 'designed to understand my needs'


----------



## Green

And twice the cost, so I'll save up for 20 years instead of 10, lol!


----------



## social port

Green said:


> And twice the cost, so I'll save up for 20 years instead of 10, lol!


Yeah, I noticed that. 
2,000 dollars for a mower that you can't even ride. How to explain that one to the wife? ("I need a mower that understands me." "I'll never have to violate the 1/3 rule again." "It's 30 inches and _heavy_. The exercise factor alone is worth it. You can't put a price tag on good health" "It's _our_ yard. I'll do it for you...nay, I'll do it for us")


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> And twice the cost, so I'll save up for 20 years instead of 10, lol!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I noticed that.
> 2,000 dollars for a mower that you can't even ride. How to explain that one to the wife? ("I need a mower that understands me." "I'll never have to violate the 1/3 rule again." "It's 30 inches and _heavy_. The exercise factor alone is worth it. You can't put a price tag on good health" "It's _our_ yard. I'll do it for you...nay, I'll do it for us")
Click to expand...

This is what we get for being up late looking at mowers! Maybe a good lightly used one exists? There must be some out there. And yeah, 40 lbs heavier...ouch! I still want one!

Personally, I dislike riding mowers for the shear bulk.


----------



## social port

I'm too afraid to buy used around here. Bermuda seeds o' plenty. :lol: Maybe the triv for you.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I'm too afraid to buy used around here. Bermuda seeds o' plenty. :lol: Maybe the triv for you.


Hate that stuff. Triv.

Thankfully no one uses Bermuda here (yet...once they get it to the point where it's as cold tolerant as Zoysia, people will...there are 2 or 3 Zoysia lawns in my immediate neighborhood. They're going brown now). My neighbor (2 houses down) is battling Zoysia in his lawn, (and battling bamboo at the tree/brush line, but has an expert taking care of that). I give him my extra Tenacity for the Zoysia.

As far as the Timemaster, I guess the question is whether the 40 lbs lighter weight versus the pro model is enough to offset the 0.75 in lower max HOC, in terms of pressure and effective HOC.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> As far as the Timemaster, I guess the question is whether the 40 lbs lighter weight versus the pro model is enough to offset the 0.75 in lower max HOC, in terms of pressure and effective HOC.


I've been looking into the Timemaster over the last couple of days when I have a few minutes.
It seems that both the commercial and homeowner versions of the mower are prone to collecting clippings under the deck. That is not unique to the model, I realize. I was just (perhaps foolishly) hoping that it might be possible to buy oneself out of that issue at the 1k-2k price point.

More concerning to me is possible cut quality issues. The Greener Lawn (youtube) mentioned that the Timemaster is prone to leaving stragglers, especially at cuts that violate 1/3. By comparison, Ryan Knorr did not mention a problem with stragglers, but he did mention some issues with how cleanly the grass was being cut--there are areas where the grass looks as if it was cut with a dull blade. This was an issue present in a new model of the Timemaster, with a higher cc than the previous model.
And mulch mowing is less than ideal with the Timemaster, especially for thicker yards. 
My grass is very dense, so I'm less sold on the mower now that I've looked into it a bit more. But I'm still thinking and looking around.


----------



## Green

Interesting. Maybe a Gator blade would help?

I'm actually pretty impressed with some of the Craftsman "Pro Line" mowers based on web searches. They're MTD mowers of the Cub Cadet design (yellow decks), and aren't really pro, but cost a lot less, and have nice engines and offer the wide cutting widths but not too wide (28"). I have a junk consumer Craftsman 21" that is surprisingly competitive with Toro 21" mowers in terms of cut quality...maybe better, so I couldn't help but look.

I'm off to order a Gator G5 blade now...unfortunately most of the leaves came down today due to wind and I have to use the old blade.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Interesting. Maybe a Gator blade would help?
> 
> I'm actually pretty impressed with some of the Craftsman "Pro Line" mowers based on web searches. They're MTD mowers of the Cub Cadet design (yellow decks), and aren't really pro, but cost a lot less, and have nice engines and offer the wide cutting widths but not too wide (28"). I have a junk consumer Craftsman 21" that is surprisingly competitive with Toro 21" mowers in terms of cut quality...maybe better, so I couldn't help but look.
> 
> I'm off to order a Gator G5 blade now...unfortunately most of the leaves came down today due to wind and I have to use the old blade.


The Timemaster uses hi lift blades. It would be nice if the cut issues could be addressed by swapping the blades. Maybe we could make the suggestion to @ryanknorr 

I have to say that I am really impressed with my 21" Craftsman. It lets me down every now and then with cut quality (patches of grass look more pulled and ripped than cut), but absolutely pulls through 90% of the time. It is mowing with the Craftsman that is making me want to ditch the riding mower. I would look at their pro line, for sure. I didn't know that they had a 28."


----------



## Green

9.5 torque engine on this thing, and 223cc is damn powerful for a 28-inch. Looks fairly sturdy, too.

https://www.sears.com/craftsman-pro-series-28inch-rear-wheel-drive-223cc/p-07139790000P?plpSellerId=Sears&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1

Slightly less expensive than the Toro. Only issue is 3.75 inch max stock HOC...not cool.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> 9.5 torque engine on this thing, and 223cc is damn powerful for a 28-inch. Looks fairly sturdy, too.
> 
> https://www.sears.com/craftsman-pro-series-28inch-rear-wheel-drive-223cc/p-07139790000P?plpSellerId=Sears&prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
> 
> Slightly less expensive than the Toro. Only issue is 3.75 inch max stock HOC...not cool.


I've been watching some YouTube vids on this mower. I really like this one-a lot-but that HOC is an issue. 
I've checked the troy built and cub cadet versions- they all have the same HOC problem-even the 33" cub cadet.

j4c11 gets by at like 2.5 HOC in NC. Wonder if that would work for me...


----------



## social port

Big updates.

Found another specimen of the possible quack



g-man said:


> It looks like Elymus repens to me instead of annual rye. In the third image, I see new grow, is it a different plant?


It pulls up so easily! This one looks like the last specimens, only bigger.







Does this look like a rhizome? There was no new plant associated with this



If someone else were posting this, I'd be like, "dude, you got the quack." But I'm holding out for alternatives


----------



## social port

I didn't take any pictures, but the bluegrass really took a hit from the rust. It got bad: most of both stands turned yellow. I thought I might lose them.

I did a fert, RGS, and Humic 12 app recently, and both stands look nearly recovered.

NMA





Midnight


----------



## social port

For anyone reading the thread to learn about fescue in the zone:
I am an advocate of being very patient with fescue during germination. I never assume that things are done at two weeks.
I had an area badly affected by washout. I reseeded it. On oct 17, it looked like this, after a reseed (or two?)


It looks like it fills in more every few days when I go out to check it. In early November, it is still growing in


I'm confident that it is not done yet.


----------



## social port

Mowed and trimmed today. Brought out the 'striper' for the front yard.



The reno fescue is getting in on the action too


----------



## pennstater2005

That last picture where you can still see it filling in....is that where the Ber#*$a was?

It all looks lush and filling in steadily.


----------



## Budstl

Sp the kbg and your front lawn are looking good. That fescue has a nice color. You ever edge the driveway?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That last picture where you can still see it filling in....is that where the Ber#*$a was?
> 
> It all looks lush and filling in steadily.


That is from the ky31 kill in the front yard. The Bermuda was mostly in the side yard, and that area looks better than any in terms of new growth. I would have taken a picture, but I mowed that part with the zero turn, so it didn't look as great. I plan on striping it the next time I mow :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Sp the kbg and your front lawn are looking good. That fescue has a nice color. You ever edge the driveway?


Thanks, Bud. I do edge, but mostly in the spring and early summer.

I also cut deep when I reseed and try to push a bunch of seed in the grooves. I try to let it get thick, then begin shaping it up in the spring.
It drives me a little crazy, though. I may have to edge before I'm done for the year.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Mowed and trimmed today. Brought out the 'striper' for the front yard.
> 
> 
> 
> The reno fescue is getting in on the action too


Looks like early October grass looks where I'm from...just a tiny hint of Summer stress remains, and you have to dig deep to find it, but is almost gone, and growth is as active as it'll be all Fall. You're in the Fall "sweet spot" right now. Prime time for Nitrogen, still, I imagine...at least by look of it.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> For anyone reading the thread to learn about fescue in the zone:
> I am an advocate of being very patient with fescue during germination. I never assume that things are done at two weeks.
> I had an area badly affected by washout. I reseeded it. On oct 17, it looked like this, after a reseed (or two?)
> 
> 
> It looks like it fills in more every few days when I go out to check it. In early November, it is still growing in
> 
> 
> I'm confident that it is not done yet.


That's exactly what happened in my low-input area re-re-seed (also due to washout) a month ago.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Looks like early October grass looks where I'm from...just a tiny hint of Summer stress remains, and you have to dig deep to find it,


That's funny. It has felt more like early October here for the past 7 days or so. Temps have been moderate, somewhere between 38 - 68. I also have some disease pressure right now. I think that it has developed over the past 2-3 weeks and is really showing up in areas.



Green said:


> Prime time for Nitrogen, still, I imagine...at least by look of it.


Yes, I'm running about a half a pound every two weeks.



Green said:


> You're in the Fall "sweet spot" right now


Cool season grass timetable in smilies
Winter = :| 
Spring = :mrgreen: 
Summer =  +  
Fall =


----------



## pennstater2005

That timetable is spot on!


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Cool season grass timetable in smilies
> Winter = :|
> Spring = :mrgreen:
> Summer =  +
> Fall =





pennstater2005 said:


> That timetable is spot on!


Ok, we really need to make a Green/Pennstater (Northeast) vs. Social Port (Transition zone/South) equivalence table...

January/Feb. (Green, et. al.) = frozen ground (except the end of the month last year, which was the earliest I ever mowed, but then didn't need to mow for like another 6 weeks, and really didn't need to, but wanted to, and did, because I could!) No lawncare.
Jan./Feb. (Social Port) = ? Maybe a mow or two if the weather permits?

March (Green) = Mostly brown grass greening up, infrequent mowing, and no fertilizer. 
March (SP) = all greened up and mowing regularly toward the middle or end of the month I imagine.

April (Green) = Pre-M, green grass, and time to dominate neighbors
April (SP) = mowing 2-3x per week?

May (Green) = Mowing 2-3x per week, seed-heads, tons of pollen, bad allergies, weeds, open up the irrigation (big mistake if you don't, and you get temps in the 90s for a week with no rain like a couple of years ago!)
May (SP) = wacky weather swings, storms?

June (Green) = Long daylight hours, grass still looks good, daytime temps mostly around 70-80. Still dominating. First Nitrogen of the year on established grass (because I'm crazy, and wait until the crazy mowing rates slow down slightly before dumping something on the grass that's only going to make it grow faster!)
June (SP) = starting to see real Summer stress ? ?

July (Green) = Hot, humid, disease, Summer stress, irrigating twice per week at a half inch not enough if no rain.
July (SP) = Hot, humid (more days in a row than for Green on average), disease, Bermuda grass, Summer stress, same irrigation problems as Green?

Aug. (Green) = The grass has had enough. Soil temps sometimes in the 90s. Green is wondering if fine bladed cold tolerant St. Aug. exists, and might be a better choice, and how much irrigation intervals can be stretched as compared to July. Reads that the last snow pack in some remote corner of the Northeast finally melted a few weeks ago, but is like, "What the heck is snow?"
Aug. (SP) = More of the same as July but slightly shorter days?

Sept. (Green) = Similar to August in the beginning, but then strange things start happening, and you remember it's actually not hot all year, and there are other seasons. great time to seed Tall Fescue is the beginning of the month, but kind of late for KBG.
Sept. (SP) = ?

Oct. (Green) = Summer stress gone (unless there's a drought). I see Poa Triv. Ok, Fall really exists. Oh boy...do I really only have half the month before frost?
Oct. (SP) = Sept. for Green. (feel free to add to it)

Nov. (Green) = OMG, it's actually getting close to Winter. And all these leaves...you mow, and then get wind, it looks like you didn't mow. Irrigation (which is on 8,500 out of 15,000 square feet of lawn area) blown out.
Nov. (SP) = Oct. for Green...

Dec. (Green) = getting cold. scrambling to do last mow and final winterizer app, get stray leaves that blow in picked up, and hope there aren't more., worry about temp/frost before walking on lawn even in middle of the day, clean mower, get it put away and hope it won't be needed again (like last year, when I did the final mow about 4 times, and it was so cold that an aging garden hose snapped in half).
Dec. (SP) = Nov. for Green


----------



## social port

:lol: That's awesome, Green. Raising the bar :thumbup: 


Green said:


> Jan./Feb. (Social Port) = ? Maybe a mow or two if the weather permits?


Probably pass on the mow. There are a few days in February where you might be tempted though. The great thing about the transition zone is that you have a looong lawn year, and you start mowing frequently in March.


Green said:


> March (SP) = all greened up and mowing regularly toward the middle or end of the month I imagine


Yes, mowing in March. Early March. Primetime for fertilizer.


Green said:


> May (SP) = wacky weather swings, storms?


Main variable in April and May is planning yard work around the rain. You can start seeing disease in May. It is not hot (not above 90), but it is muggy. If you catch it before disease pressure, you are probably looking at your best lawn of the season between mid April and mid May.


Green said:


> June (SP) = starting to see real Summer stress ? ?


Yes, watch out for disease and make sure you don't slip up on watering.


Green said:


> July (SP) = Hot, humid (more days in a row than for Green on average), disease, Bermuda grass, Summer stress, same irrigation problems as Green?


It's bad. Disease pressure. This is the time that you don't want to look out because you are afraid of what you might find. It got pretty bad here this year, but I had very little loss/lasting impact from disease. I probably don't irrigate as much as you. I push it further, watering only when I see signs of drought stress. We have enough wet days that the rain does a lot of the work for you.


Green said:


> Green is wondering if fine bladed cold tolerant St. Aug. exists


 :lol: 


Green said:


> More of the same as July but slightly shorter days?


As far as I can tell, the only difference between July and August is that, in August, you are closer to the end of the dreadful period 


Green said:


> Sept. (SP) = ?


September is second August. You might begin to see a little recove...uh...nevermind.



Green said:


> Oct. (SP) = Sept. for Green. (feel free to add to it)


Yes, similar to yours. The warm season grasses are beginning to turn. Temps drop dramatically. Long periods of wet weather. Late September is ideal for seeding here, as disease pressure lowers. You do, however, have to be mindful of establishment before temps get too cold. It's a pretty small window, or at least it seems like that.


Green said:


> Nov. (SP) = Oct. for Green...


It's more like you don't know what to expect. It might feel close to winter one day. You might sweat the next. Definitely still mowing. Fertilizer is OK too, especially earlier in the month.


Green said:


> Dec. (SP) = Nov. for Green


Growth slows...crawls, but really you don't know what to expect. Don't say that the season is over until January, but weekends generally open up. There might be a day or two in the month reserved for mowing.

That is a pretty interesting comparison. Speaking of general trends, when compared to the Green and pennstater season, the transition zone has a poorly defined end of season, an early (and, I would say, well-defined) start to the season, and an extra long and well-defined summer.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> That is a pretty interesting comparison. Speaking of general trends, when compared to the Green and pennstater season, the transition zone has a poorly defined end of season, an early (and, I would say, well-defined) start to the season, and an extra long and well-defined summer.


Interesting. Here's a bit more detail about my weather. @pennstater2005 may have slight differences in his area.

What you wrote above, is how March to early May can be here...variable (though so can late Sept through Nov.). You don't know if March is going to be like December going backwards, or more like an early April, and when the last frost will be. It could be as late as early May. It's damp, but not quite as bad as Fall...there's stronger sun in the Spring (though April is apparently our cloudiest month). It's also windy, and there tends to be a lot of rain. Red thread is s huge issue in this period.

And our May is like your April in some ways (except here, the growth rate can be really crazy starting overnight...imagine the 6 weeks of your April plus late March and early May growth crammed into 4). And in early April, you can literally see the grass green up by the hour it seems. In March you might mow every 15 days. And then Bam. In late April or early May, it's twice a week and you still might break the 1/3 rule.

June here is a transition point between Spring and Summer. I like it. But not the year that the growth flush kept up through July...man, that was weird. But every year or season seems to have a personality that's never quite duplicated again...

Like right now, the frequent rain. that's preventing even getting to certain soggy and flooded spots areas to remove leaves.

July and August have been rough in recent (past 10 to some degree) years as far as rainfall. We're supposed to get 40-52 inches of rain every year, depending on what part of the state you live in (around 48 where I am), and it's generally evenly spaced at around 4 inches of precipitation per calendar month. But in recent years, July and August have averaged around 2.5-3 inches of rain. This trend is so real, that the data that the Hydrawise irrigation app utilizes, says that our historical monthly average in those months is only 2.5 in. 2.5 inches of rain is not enough in a month when it's 85-90 or higher and ET can be 0.25 in per day...especially if there's a 2 or 3 week period without rain (i.e. abnormal dryness or drought). So, it's common for non-irrigated lawns in full sun to go dormant. And those business lawns without irrigation and with poor soil, suffer losses and aren't typically ever fixed. During the period when crabgrass takes over those lawns, is when I wonder about warm season grasses. Typically, the Zoysia that a few people around here have, is a yucky brown-green in the warm weather because it's probably an old type and they don't ever fertilize. But I know good Zoysia can look really good here from May through October, from what I hear.

CT broke a record with 9 tornadoes this year so far, by the way...including several relatively near me that devastated a few state parks, which still aren't open again.

One more thing before I get back to what I need to do...
Here's a little more detail on grass type use here. Northern mixes of 2-4 desired species are most common, with FF probably the most common, followed by KBG, then PR. TF hasn't made major inroads yet, but people are waking up and seeing how good it is more and more for reseeding or new construction.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> CT broke a record with 9 tornadoes this year so far, by the way...including several relatively near me that devastated a few state parks, which still aren't open again.


I don't think of CT as a hotbed for tornado activity. Wow. Nine seems like a lot!
Middle Tennessee has recently been branded as a variant of tornado alley (dixie alley, they call it. It shares that title with areas in bordering states such as Georgia). I don't know what the stats look like, but to me, they seem most active in November. In fact, three rotating cells came through last night. I don't know how many touched down, but I am pretty sure I heard the roar of one in the distance. The rain fell at a rate of 7+inches/hour!

I'm embarrassed to admit, but before the cells came through, I ran outside to the porch to grab 5 bags filled with dallisgrass so that they would not be blown into my yard. There were seedheads in those bags :lol:


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, 5 inch max HOC versus 4.25. That's a big difference, and I feel higher top HOC settings are more important the heavier/wider the mower. (Remember LCN'S video on that WorldLawn commercial mower or whatever the brand was that was scalping his St. Aug?).
> 
> That and the cool factor and pro engine. :mrgreen:
> 
> I would also keep one (or two!) 21 inch mowers for hills and small spots. Lol, I only have one currently!


It looks like the World Lawn mower review is no longer available at the LCN YouTube channel. I couldn't find the review video in his library. I did find a link to the review via a different video, but the video in the link would not play. FYI


----------



## social port

There was a deep frost/freeze (?) last night, but the temps climbed to the 50s today. It seems way too early to be this cold. I'm expecting a considerable warm-up within 2 weeks or so.

Cleaned the underside of my pushmower with vinegar, paper towels, and a stiff brush.

Gave the front and side yard the smallest of trims. Front yard



Here is the Bermuda Warfield as of late September 




Here is what the Bermuda Warfield looks like today


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> social port, 5 inch max HOC versus 4.25. That's a big difference, and I feel higher top HOC settings are more important the heavier/wider the mower. (Remember LCN'S video on that WorldLawn commercial mower or whatever the brand was that was scalping his St. Aug?).
> 
> That and the cool factor and pro engine. :mrgreen:
> 
> I would also keep one (or two!) 21 inch mowers for hills and small spots. Lol, I only have one currently!
> 
> 
> 
> It looks like the World Lawn mower review is no longer available at the LCN YouTube channel. I couldn't find the review video in his library. I did find a link to the review via a different video, but the video in the link would not play.
Click to expand...

Somehow I'm not really surprised.

Do you have leaves starting to come down in decent numbers now? I had a few between mid July and mid October, and then around Hallowen it was like they started coming down all at once. Still happening now, but we're close to exhausting the supply.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Do you have leaves starting to come down in decent numbers now? I had a few between mid July and mid October, and then around Hallowen it was like they started coming down all at once. Still happening now, but we're close to exhausting the supply.


I am the proud owner of exactly zero trees. All of the leaf traffic I get is from the neighbors and a few shrubs.
I don't track it closely, but some trees began losing leaves in the 3rd and 4th week of September. But in the last week or two, there has been an explosion. Leaves are covering the ground in many yards now.


----------



## social port

Freezing temps at night, but it got up to 60 today. I took advantage of the brief warming trend.
Mowed the entire yard today. Still having some growth, but it is slow.
Before the next forecasted rain, I'm going to fertilize the bluegrass.

Backyard



NMA mix bluegrass



Midnight



Side yard





Front yard


----------



## Green

You're right where we were around Halloween with the temps and amount of growth. I had 10 inches of snow the other day (crazy!) and still have about 3 inches left. I don't want to know what that's doing to the top layers as far as soil temp, but I will measure once it melts. I did not measure beforehand. I noticed some parts of TN got some snow, too.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I noticed some parts of TN got some snow, too.


Yes, temps dropped sharply 10 or so days ago, and a large system came through. It snowed for over 12 hours, but it amounted to only a small dusting.



Green said:


> I had 10 inches of snow the other day (crazy!) and still have about 3 inches left.


Yes, I know. I've been following your thread. I remember you mentioning that you wanted to mow this weekend; but I was thinking that the ground would still be too wet for you mow.
My grass was dry, but the soil was still really moist. I should have probably waited one more day before mowing, but I was getting antsy.


----------



## social port

The lawn is still struggling somewhat with a lot of yellowing on my blades. 
I've been waiting for rainfall to get down another fert application.
It just so happens that a large system is coming through tonight and will dump some rain. I believe that this is the same system that is going to strike the Midwest and Northeast with snow.

I put about .6-.7 lbs of NPK per k on the fescue and the bluegrass this afternoon. I had a fert spill on the grass and tried to clean it up with a blower.
Temps are going to range between the mid 30s and mid 60s over the weekend, with full sun tomorrow after the rain ends tonight.
Another temp drop will occur next week. Today may have been my last fert app of the season. I hope it is enough to push the turf into recovery.


----------



## g-man

fungus?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> fungus?


Looks like it









At a distance, the infection looks subtle, but it is definitely there. I think I suffered some losses already. 
I noticed some blades starting to needle.

Of the three newly established lawns in the neighborhood, all three show signs of disease. The other two lawns have infections confined to large circular patterns. There is no defined shape to the pattern of infection in my lawn.
I think it could be leaf spot, but that is just a guess. I have completely avoided fungicides up to this point.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

No fungicides? I don't condone this course of action... :lol:


----------



## social port

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> No fungicides? I don't condone this course of action... :lol:


Yeah, I know. The disease looks to be setting in more, and it has me squirming. Kind of feels like a game of chicken.

But I'm not going to swerve.


----------



## g-man

I would apply fungicide. I like to have a lawn.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

I see this yellowing a lot in the fall. Seems quite common. Without intervention, I wonder how it will affect a thick stand. In non-maintained stands, they are so thin and full of weeds, I'm not sure if they get thinner by spring. Keep us updated!


----------



## pennstater2005

Stop posting SP! It's November 27th dammit.


----------



## social port

@g-man and @Suburban Jungle Life I know. I'm really tempted to treat, but I just don't see myself doing that. It can be a test case. I bet on the resiliency of my fescue. 
Besides, it would be too ironic to survive all summer in the t'zone with no fungicides and then have to pull the trigger with treatment in the winter. Never. saw. this. coming.


pennstater2005 said:


> Stop posting SP! It's November 27th dammit.


 :lol: I know. 27th of November. Tell that to the fungus.


----------



## social port

The fungus hasn't cleared up yet. It has been very wet: tons of rain and cloudy conditions.
The lawn could use another mow, but the ground isn't drying up enough for me to use the mower.

The midnight bluegrass is holding its color very well compared to the fescue and the bluegrass mix. Temps have been colder than usual, so my fescue lost some color early this winter. The color contrast should be evident in these pictures.


----------



## pennstater2005

Almost looks like you have a test plot going! Looks good though. Merry Christmas!!


----------



## social port

@pennstater2005 Merry Christmas! Hope you and your family have a great one!!


----------



## Green

Do you still have rust in addition to this unidentified fungus?


----------



## social port

Green, I haven't been thorough in my checks since the season turned, but overall, the rust looks to be mostly gone. I noticed that it improved significantly after my last N app.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green, I haven't been thorough in my checks since the season turned, but overall, the rust looks to be mostly gone. I noticed that it improved significantly after my last N app.


That's good! I still had a bit of it going into dormancy.
What's your mowing frequency been like recently? Every 3-4 weeks??
I noticed our lawns greened up ever so slightly here this past week...even though the ground is freezing. 3 months until the next mow...

I was reading about leaf spot diseases. Apparently they like new grass.


----------



## social port

@Green, it looks like my last mow was mid November. The weather turned cold early this year. Since then, we've experienced several periods of brief temperature increases, and this has been enough to push some growth. However, it has been too wet for me to feel comfortable about mowing. Because I keep my grass pretty high, it takes a very long time for the blades to dry.

Had conditions been less wet, I could have probably mowed two times since mid November.
At this point, I am still holding out for one more mow this year. The grass could use it. I just need a stretch of sunny days.


----------



## Green

@social port, I hear you guys got lots of rain again.

Did you eventually get to do a Winter mow?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, I hear you guys got lots of rain again.
> 
> Did you eventually get to do a Winter mow?


Hey, Green! I have been way out of the lawn loop for a bit...dark times, indeed  
February has been extremely wet in Tennessee, and yes, we had a lot of rain for most of last week. Local flooding was rampant. There was no flooding in my lawn (thanks, Air-8?), but the ground is saturated. I never got to mow again. At this point, my grass is growing a little -- not a lot, but some. I'm getting ready to mow in the next week or two. But my first priority is to get caught-up, as I'm way behind on PreM, and I need to get some triclopyr down before my broadleaf problems get out of control. I'm hoping to update my thread in the next several days.


----------



## pennstater2005

Hi @social port :wave:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Hi @social port :wave:


Good to see you, pennstater! 
Are we gearing up for another season?


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi @social port :wave:
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see you, pennstater!
> Are we gearing up for another season?
Click to expand...

Oh yeah! I got a good month before I'll be doing anything though.


----------



## Green

@social port, good to hear! Good luck getting the pre-M down.

There is not going to be any mowing for a while here...lots of highs in the 30s still. I think last year was my record earliest...late Feb. But then it was like late April before the second mow. I do need to get going with germination tests on my seed, though. Need to sharpen a mower blade at some point, and start sourcing and buying some supplies like seed and grub prevention, pre-M (trying Gallery this year for broadleaf weeds), etc. Figure out when and how to do some tree pruning as well.


----------



## social port

My lawn season officially began today. The lawn is definitely not in top form. Disease hung around all winter and actually progressed. I think I lost some grass along the way, but I am still holding out for possible recovery. Weed pressure is surprisingly high right now, but it is mostly broadleaf. That being said, I also have some nasty looking grassy weeds. I pulled some of them today, but I haven't spent much time trying to ID. For all of my suspicion and worry last fall, I don't think I'm dealing with quackgrass.

I have a motto this season: simple maintenance. This year I am not going to be terribly concerned with weed pressure, grass color, etc. I'm not shooting for perfection right now. I'm just sticking to the basics: PreM, occasional post M, fertilizer, and some soil work (mainly from the N-Ext line of products). If I see new shoots of bermuda, I may need to call an audible, but I'm hoping all of that is behind me. There is a lot of new activity and responsibility in the ole household, and I just can't be as focused on my lawn. I'll bring my A-game another year.

Today I pulled some grassy weeds. I collected soil for a soil test. I applied milo at bag rate. I applied synthetic to my bluegrass. I put down my PreM.
A note on the preM: Last year I used a top brand for granular dithiopyr, but I was not happy with the results. This year I tried a different brand. I was able to find granular dithiopyr fert-free from the sta-green brand. Application with my earthway was nearly impossible. The prills are too small, and there was way, way too much dust. I ended up over applying due to my inability to properly regulate the discharge. I eventually switched to my Scott's wizz (setting 4), and that did the trick. It was much easier to apply with this tool, even though it took a long time.

My next steps: Hopefully post M with triclopyr and then mow next week.


----------



## Powhatan

social port said:


> My lawn season officially began today. ...
> I was able to find granular dithiopyr fert-free from the sta-green brand. Application with my earthway was nearly impossible. The prills are too small, and there was way, way too much dust. I ended up over applying due to my inability to properly regulate the discharge. I eventually switched to my Scott's wizz (setting 4), and that did the trick. It was much easier to apply with this tool, even though it took a long time.


Here's to a hopeful fantastic growing season for you :thumbsup:

The Sta-Green crabgrass preventer is what I used last fall for the first time. I applied a lower 2-3 month rate, 10# over 12.5K using a small hole size on my walk behind broadcast spreader. I don't remember if the product was dusty when I applied it, maybe the bag I bought wasn't handled too much in the store. The few weeds I've noticed so far have been found on the lawn border, lucky I guess.

I plan to use the same Sta-Green product this spring for my 2nd preM app.


----------



## Green

@social port, have you considered adding in Gallery pre-M since you have broadleaf weed issues? I plan to use it this year. Dimension and Prodiamine aren't so hot against broadleaf weeds!


----------



## social port

Powhatan said:


> Here's to a hopeful fantastic growing season for you


Hey Powhatan, thank you! I have to say that it felt great to be working on the lawn again. I can't wait for the first mow!



Powhatan said:


> The Sta-Green crabgrass preventer is what I used last fall for the first time. I applied a lower 2-3 month rate, 10# over 12.5K using a small hole size on my walk behind broadcast spreader. I don't remember if the product was dusty when I applied it, maybe the bag I bought wasn't handled too much in the store. The few weeds I've noticed so far have been found on the lawn border, lucky I guess.


That is so interesting. Our experiences are really different. In fact, at some point yesterday I began to think: "I really need to get on the forum to let folks know to steer clear of this stuff." The issue is application. Once I transferred to the handheld spreader, it was much better, and I eventually made friends with it.
But it was very dusty, and prill sizes varied widely. It actually reminded me of m-binder -- brown, dusty, and difficult to control. Very much so. I'm not sure if I will get it again for a second app this summer or try something else. I have a farmer's coop that also sells granular dithiopyr that is fert-free.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, have you considered adding in Gallery pre-M since you have broadleaf weed issues? I plan to use it this year. Dimension and Prodiamine aren't so hot against broadleaf weeds!


Yeah, I noticed that you mentioned gallery in a previous post. I've heard of Gallery, but I'm not familiar with it. Prodiamine, pendimethalin, and dithiopyr are pretty much the only preMs on my radar. One really helpful feature of a given PreM for me is when it comes in granular form. It looks like Gallery doesn't. But maybe I should look into it more--broadleaf plants have been very active this winter. It will take me several hours to hit all of them with triclopyr.


----------



## Budstl

What up sp? Do my own has gallery in granular form. Looks pricey. 10lb bag for $28 covers 2000m.
https://www.domyown.com/fertilome-broadleaf-weed-control-with-gallery-p-2016.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItIHrov7c4AIVUL7ACh3FXwP0EAQYASABEgJu9fD_BwE

I'll be doing a split app of hi yield for my pre m. Hope you have a good 2019 lawn season. Still cold her in the lou, so it will still be a few weeks for lawn season for me.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Yeah, I noticed that you mentioned gallery in a previous post. I've heard of Gallery, but I'm not familiar with it. Prodiamine, pendimethalin, and dithiopyr are pretty much the only preMs on my radar. One really helpful feature of a given PreM for me is when it comes in granular form. It looks like Gallery doesn't. But maybe I should look into it more--broadleaf plants have been very active this winter. It will take me several hours to hit all of them with triclopyr.


SP,

Same here. Other than Tenacity, I've only ever used granular pre-Ms up to this point and prefer them (mostly I've used Dimension but also Prodiamine and Pendimethalin). That said, when I learned that those Dinitroanalines are really poor against broadleaf weeds (that was news to me...I always wondered if I was doing something wrong because I still got broadleafs popping up), I asked about alternatives and was pointed to Gallery.

The spraying is a negative for me as well, but I'll do it. Heck, I'll do it with my handheld pump sprayer despite it being torture. (The battery sprayer can apparently clog over time when dissolvable solids are used.) I'm getting Gallery 75DF due to the cost effectiveness. I'll still use Dimension on about 13K of the 15K. But what I'm going to do is tank mix Gallery plus Tenacity plus NIS. Then I might do a follow-up Tenacity app on some areas a month later instead of Dimension (then follow that with a low rate of Dimension granular 3-5 weeks later).

I just want to break the broadleaf weed cycle for once. it looks like the 0.38oz/K rate of Gallery 75DF in March or April will do the trick for me. Coverage should last 3-6 months in my area. You probably would benefit from the 0.5oz/K in your area due to the longer season as well as higher weed pressure. The literature lists which weeds are controlled by which rates.


----------



## Green

Budstl said:


> What up sp? Do my own has gallery in granular form. Looks pricey. 10lb bag for $28 covers 2000m.
> https://www.domyown.com/fertilome-broadleaf-weed-control-with-gallery-p-2016.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItIHrov7c4AIVUL7ACh3FXwP0EAQYASABEgJu9fD_BwE


Nice find! Expensive for more than a small area, but still a nice option.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> What up sp? Do my own has gallery in granular form. Looks pricey. 10lb bag for $28 covers 2000m.
> https://www.domyown.com/fertilome-broadleaf-weed-control-with-gallery-p-2016.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMItIHrov7c4AIVUL7ACh3FXwP0EAQYASABEgJu9fD_BwE
> 
> I'll be doing a split app of hi yield for my pre m. Hope you have a good 2019 lawn season. Still cold her in the lou, so it will still be a few weeks for lawn season for me.


What's up Budstl! Thanks for that find. I missed that granular option earlier when I was perusing DMO. It is pricey, but I am going to look into it more. It seems like anytime you are buying granular preM, you are paying a lot. What really seems smart is a partial implementation: Use gallery only in lawn sections where broadleaf infestation is the worst; go for dithiopyr for the remainder.

I figured it would be about kickoff time for you. Truth be told, I may be jumping the gun a little bit. I could have worn shorts today, but as of tonight, projections for next week include a cold spell that will bring temps back down to the teens. That's the transition zone for you


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Heck, I'll do it with my handheld pump sprayer despite it being torture.


That is dedication! I know full well that can be tortuous, especially when it is a hot day, and you've got to mix multiple tanks to get the job done.


Green said:


> You probably would benefit from the 0.5oz/K in your area due to the longer season as well as higher weed pressure. The literature lists which weeds are controlled by which rates.


Yes, I am really liking what I am seeing from this product with respect to the range of target pests, i.e., its coverage isn't restricted to broadleaf weeds. 


Green said:


> That said, when I learned that those Dinitroanalines are really poor against broadleaf weeds


One thing that struck me last year was how unrealistic my expectations were for my PreM. For some reason, I thought I was giving my lawn a titanium shield. Then as the season wore on, I witnessed my lawn being unable to shrug off a dallisgrass infection from a neighboring property. I had a come-to-reality moment when I realized that the preM barrier has significant limitations in the range of pests covered.


Green said:


> I'm getting Gallery 75DF due to the cost effectiveness. I'll still use Dimension on about 13K of the 15K.


That is what I am thinking as well...making gallery kind of a special-use PreM. But I need to look into it more. It may actually be reasonable to implement it in the late fall.


----------



## Green

Green said:


> I'm getting Gallery 75DF due to the cost effectiveness. I'll still use Dimension on about 13K of the 15K.





> That is what I am thinking as well...making gallery kind of a special-use PreM. But I need to look into it more. It may actually be reasonable to implement it in the late fall.


Yeah, but I'm going to use the Gallery on the whole yard...and the Dimension on most of it, too!

Honestly it's no more effort than two years ago...all I have to do is mix the Gallery into the Tenacity, which I will be spraying anyway. Only issue is I can't use the Chapin 20v.

I think the Gallery + Tenacity followed up by Dimension will essentially be bulletproof.


----------



## social port

It seems like there has been more sunshine over the past week than what we saw all winter. The grass is responding really well. I'm definitely seeing significant green-up. I'm sure the fert helped on that front as well. I really need to mow and do a postM. It has been in the 20s and 30s over the last several days, so I am waiting for a warm-up and some free time.

I am also seeing quite a bit of recovery from disease. I was getting nervous about that. 
I still have a few areas where infection is strong, but on the whole, the grass looks to be recovering. I have taken a picture or two to try to show the change, but I really haven't been diligent or thoughtful in my documentation. I will review my pictures at some point and then post them if it makes sense to do so (i.e., if the pictures are good enough to show the change).


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I'm definitely seeing significant green-up. I'm sure the fert helped on that front as well.


You fertilized a while back? Do you mean in the Fall?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm definitely seeing significant green-up. I'm sure the fert helped on that front as well.
> 
> 
> 
> You fertilized a while back? Do you mean in the Fall?
Click to expand...

Hey Green! When I applied my PreM on 2/26, I also put down some Milorganite at bag rate. That is a little early, but there were several considerations. Temps were in the 50s and 60s, and the grass was growing. I thought winter was over (but now it is cold again). I also wanted to make the most of my time; I wasn't sure when I would have the chance to put down the fert. Finally, I was hoping to revive my diseased grass some. In a previous post, I mentioned that the rust had cleared up. However, there was another disease there (probably leaf spot), and it really did a number on both the bluegrass and fescue. I was thinking that some nitrogen might help in recovery, but I may have been wishful thinking on that one; I'm not sure. I can say that the infected areas are looking better...so something has helped.


----------



## social port

Got my postM work done today. I spot-sprayed the back and side yards with triclopyr, AS, and NIS.

Then I ran out of Triclopyr. I made a trip to Lowes, but they didn't have CCO in stock. For an alternative, I used the WBG mixture of Dicamba, Quinclorac, and 2-4d for the front and other side yard. I have mostly broadleaf weeds, so I would rather have the triclopyr, but that 3-way should make most of those weeds unhappy. 
I have a rather nasty outbreak of what I believe is Virginia Buttonweed in the front yard. It should respond to the Dicamba and Quinclorac.

As might be expected, areas that I reno'd last season were hit pretty hard with weeds. The established parts of my lawn had very few weeds.

One bonus: I believe that I was able to get some postM effect from my dithiopyr app. I noticed that several weeds, particularly those growing in my bluegrass, looked like they were already dying.

I do also have a few grassy weeds. At this point, I believe most to be either tall fescue or Annual Rye. I am thankful that I'm not dealing with quackgrass.

I noticed seeds on some of my bluegrass today. It seems really early to be seeing seeds. I am wondering if it my be poa a or t instead. I need to investigate.

I can't mow tomorrow, and the rain is coming back on Thursday. Looks like the year's first mow will happen Saturday or Sunday.


----------



## Powhatan

social port said:


> I noticed seeds on some of my bluegrass today. It seems really early to be seeing seeds. I am wondering if it my be poa a or t instead. I need to investigate.


@social port if they look like this, they are probably poa annua. It warmed up a couple days ago and I pulled several of these yesterday; I suspect the mesotrione is lighting them up.


----------



## social port

Hey @Powhatan . They do look a lot like what is in your picture. I was thrown a little bit because I expected poa A to be lighter in color than my KBG. I didn't notice any color differences between them. I will do a closer comparison tomorrow.

Do you have any ideas as to what led to the tanning/browning on some of those leaves of your grass? Disease perhaps?


----------



## Powhatan

social port said:


> Do you have any ideas as to what led to the tanning/browning on some of those leaves of your grass? Disease perhaps?


Kinda appears like fungal characteristics, but I believe it's probably winter dormancy blade browning (dead?). Practically all the TF/TTTF clumps on my lawn have some degree blade browning, ironically, the clump  in the road ditch is the greenest. Maybe a mature blade being thicker is not as susceptible to the winter blade browning.


----------



## social port

Powhatan said:


> Kinda appears like fungal characteristics, but I believe it's probably winter dormancy blade browning (dead?). Practically all the TF/TTTF clumps on my lawn have some degree blade browning, ironically, the clump in the road ditch is the greenest. Maybe a mature blade being thicker is not as susceptible to the winter blade browning.


Interesting. 
I've been sorting out what is brown from disease vs. routine winter browning in my lawn as well. I haven't been able to detect a pattern by the maturity of the plant. Much of my new grass is unaffected. 
I also have a small section of TTTF that remained very green during the entire winter -- it appears to have been untouched by disease and temperature. AND, it continued to grow. 
I've tried to account for this in terms of water pipes under the soil, but I'm not convinced that I have a good answer. If I did, I might be able to protect the rest of my lawn during the winter.


----------



## Green

If you guys want to see tons of brown from Winter, check out my journal!


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

social port said:


> I also have a small section of TTTF that remained very green during the entire winter -- it appears to have been untouched by disease and temperature. AND, it continued to grow.
> I've tried to account for this in terms of water pipes under the soil, but I'm not convinced that I have a good answer. If I did, I might be able to protect the rest of my lawn during the winter.


Does it receive reflected light off the house or windows? Reflected light off windows can melt siding on adjacent houses.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> If you guys want to see tons of brown from Winter, check out my journal!


Yes, I know. It would drive me nuts to see that much brown. Heavy snowball might be a relief in that it presents you with an out of sight - out of mind situation.



Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Does it receive reflected light off the house or windows? Reflected light off windows can melt siding on adjacent houses.


The area that thrived is not near the house.
But, now that I am thinking about it, the area is near a 'manhole' cover. Its surface is parallel with the grass, of course, so I'm not sure how a reflection would wind up in that area, but physics can be a strange thing.


----------



## social port

Went to inspect the suspected poa a this evening. There were so many seed heads that I could not get a very good idea of the plant itself. I almost pulled it, but then I got sick with the idea of pulling midnight.

Any of you poa a vs p adepts want to weigh in here? I realize that the seedhead isn't much to go on, but sometimes you can just tell.

If not, I'll assume the worst and just pull it, and then hope my dithiopyr puts in good work for me. Those are a lot of seeds.


----------



## Powhatan

+1 for Poa Annua

Poa Annua vs KBG seedheads


----------



## social port

thanks @Powhatan . I'll move forward with the pull.


----------



## social port

Got the poa a up, in all its glory. Found a baby earthworm in the soil.


----------



## Green

Yeah, get those Poa A plants all out of there before you mow!


----------



## pennstater2005

They're kind of pretty. Very dark green.


----------



## Chris LI

You probably had the neighbors watching you wondering why you dug up that dark green "good grass".


----------



## Green

Chris LI said:


> You probably had the neighbors watching you wondering why you dug up that dark green "good grass".


Yeah, that's the good, dark green stuff. Poa A golf courses would probably like to get their hands on it.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Yeah, get those Poa A plants all out of there before you mow!


Exactly. I think that I saw another patch the other day while I was spraying. I couldn't find it today, so I am really hoping that I had a top-form PreM application.


pennstater2005 said:


> They're kind of pretty. Very dark green.


I know. The color of the annua was indistinguishable from the midnight. I suppose if one is to have a grassy weed, that particular poa A isn't the worst of the lot. But...who knows how much the color might change for the worse as the season pushes on.


Chris LI said:


> You probably had the neighbors watching you wondering why you dug up that dark green "good grass".


  "Honey, that crazy lawn guy is at it again. This time he's just ripping stuff up from the ground!"


----------



## social port

First mow of the year today. Grass was really overgrown. Triple pass in some areas to prevent clumping. 
Turf is thick and healthy. Still a few disease spots that are recovering, but they do look to be coming along. I'm going to try to follow up on this if and when they fully recover.





N-Ext products were on my Christmas wishlist this year. My family had a bit of fun with me.


----------



## Budstl

Man is that looking good. Nice sea of green and thick too. How's that kbg reno coming along?


----------



## pennstater2005

Always super jealous of your grass this time of year! Awesome gifts!


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Man is that looking good. Nice sea of green and thick too. How's that kbg reno coming along?


The KBG is slow, weed-infested, and still recovering from disease. My three-way mix (Award, NuGlade, and Mazama) is doing better than the Midnight. Neither KBG plot is ready for the camera.
All of that said, I expect growth to kick in over the next 2-3 weeks. I'm planning to hit it with small doses of a balanced fertilizer until late April. Potassium doses possibly beyond that.



pennstater2005 said:


> Always super jealous of your grass this time of year! Awesome gifts!


Yeah, I'm just about to hit prime season for appearance and health. I'm expecting good things from early April until the end of May. Then...it's all downhill


----------



## Budstl

If you can get your hands on some alfalfa pellets, put that down on kbg. My back yard kbg reno was extremely slow last year to get going too.


----------



## Chris LI

@social port 
Great start to the season! I'm jonesing for the first mow of the season! 
+1@pennstater2005


----------



## Green

@social port, the TTTF looks great! 
Did you mow the KBG yet?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> If you can get your hands on some alfalfa pellets, put that down on kbg. My back yard kbg reno was extremely slow last year to get going too.


Will do. I think I can get some at a local farm supply store (called the Co-op around here).


Chris LI said:


> @social port
> Great start to the season! I'm jonesing for the first mow of the season!
> +1@pennstater2005


Man, nothing is better than those springs mows! I'm going to enjoy each and every one while I can. And I hear you on jonesing. I was watching mowing videos back in January.  


Green said:


> @social port, the TTTF looks great!
> Did you mow the KBG yet?


Hey, Green. I mowed the KBG today, but only took off the tiniest bit. I mowed at 4.5 inches, and most of the KBG is below that mark. I am planning to keep the bluegrass somewhere between 2-3 inches. And really, I am leaning on the lower side of that range.
I am in the process of transitioning my HOC in the backyard--where the bluegrass is. I'm going to bring down my TTTF to 2..5-3.0 in the backyard. That way I can cut everything in the backyard without having to change my deck height very much, if at all.


----------



## social port

Cut the grass yesterday. Mowed the backyard down to 4 inches; left the rest of the lawn at 4.5.
The bluegrass is gaining color and has grown some since the last mow (mainly the three-way mix. Midnight is still chillin' out).


----------



## Budstl

Looking good @social port. Congrats on the lotm nomination.


----------



## g-man

That's a good looking bermuda lawn!


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Looking good @social port. Congrats on the lotm nomination.


Thanks! That reminds me that I ordered some TLF golf balls several months back. I think I need a photo of one of those sitting on some high-cut fescue. That'd be a first, I imagine.


g-man said:


> That's a good looking bermuda lawn!


Thanks, g-man. I just need to get a reel, and then I'll be set :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Took the TTTF in the backyard from 4 to 3.5 HOC this evening. No small task. It needs another pass to really clean it up. Tried a little striping as well.


----------



## drenglish

Looking good! Man that fescue is thick. I'm looking forward to mine filling in this spring - Did you leave the height up on the fescue this winter?


----------



## social port

drenglish said:


> Looking good! Man that fescue is thick. I'm looking forward to mine filling in this spring - Did you leave the height up on the fescue this winter?


Yes, I typically cut at 4.5 inches, and I did leave it at that height over the winter. I can get away with that because I don't have to deal with much snow. Plus, I have a (probably ridiculous) suspicion that regular changes in HOC creates conditions favorable for disease. Since I almost always cut at 4.5, I leave it that way during the winter.

This year I am bringing down HOC in the backyard so that there is less of a height mismatch between my bluegrass and fescue.


----------



## drenglish

I'm jealous of that option to cut at 4.5"...I'm in the market for a push mower at 4+. My current one is 3.75" max and I feel like the extra bit might help me out in the Summer. I'm considering either a Toro Timemaster or a Super Recycler. Definitely will keep it at a middle height during the spring though so things can breathe a little. I had some frisbee sized fungal patches last June try to cause some problems because I let things get too long while on vacation.

Some of the newer TTTF can handle lower HOC better from what I've read - is your backyard a TTTF/KBG mix? I know you have the test plots for bluegrass going - what's up with the midnight? Slow spring greenup?


----------



## social port

drenglish said:


> I'm in the market for a push mower at 4+. My current one is 3.75" max and I feel like the extra bit might help me out in the Summer.


I get that high cut option from my Gravely. I was in a similar position as yours last year with my pushmower. I ended up putting larger tires on my pushmower, and that substantially increased HOC. I believe that Craftsman offers a model that is similar to the Timemaster. 


drenglish said:


> Some of the newer TTTF can handle lower HOC better from what I've read


Another forum member cuts his fescue around 2.5 inches, even during the summer in the transition zone. He posted a picture last year, and it looked phenomenal. But my biases compel me to the high HOC.


drenglish said:


> is your backyard a TTTF/KBG mix? I know you have the test plots for bluegrass going - what's up with the midnight? Slow spring greenup?


No, the bluegrass and fescue aren't mixed at all. Most of my backyard is a stand of fescue. I have about 1500 M in bluegrass, and those areas are fully demarcated from the fescue. And yes, the Midnight is lagging. It is growing a little, but not nearly as much as the three-way. Both stands of bluegrass have greened up quite a bit at this point. 
Neither one looks particularly good yet: Still kind of patchy in areas, and both areas got hit pretty bad with weeds. I am still trying to get it under control. In addition to broadleaf varieties, some fine fescue has come up in the three-way, and poa A is littering the Midnight. 
Compared to the fescue, the bluegrass stayed greener for longer going into winter. The fescue greened more quickly and began growing earlier than the bluegrass this spring. That pattern may change as the bluegrass matures.


----------



## social port

Made a clean-up pass in the backyard this evening to even out the cut and clean up clippings. I'm going to let the grass recover for a bit before I take it down to 3 inches


----------



## Sfurunner13

Looking good. Interested in how it handles the lower HOC


----------



## social port

Sfurunner13 said:


> Looking good. Interested in how it handles the lower HOC


Yes, I'm definitely thinking of this as a trial. Some important notes about the growing environment: the turf is in an area completely surrounded by a solid fence. The fence introduces quite a bit of shade, and the airflow is restricted. 
With the increased shade, I'm hoping to avoid problems with lack of water that might be associated with lower HOC in the t'zone. With the lack of air flow, I'm hoping to work against disease pressure that would be associated with a higher HOC.
So, I'm hoping to get that balance right.


----------



## social port

Cut the lawn today. I made a mistake in cutting the backyard at 3 inches. I thought I had already taken it down that far.
The fescue is not happy- not at all. The degree of discoloration is poorly reflected in this photo.



I've seen grass look like this when there is a substantial HOC change. I'm hoping that is the extent of the problem.
Action plan
Feed the bluegrass with alfalfa pellets.
App of triclopyr 
Pull grassy weeds with pro plugger
Air-8
.5 lb NPK to fescue
RGS app


----------



## social port

Spot spayed with triclopyr yesterday. Added AS to the mix for some kick, at 3 oz/g.

The (low-cut) fescue in the backyard is starting to look a little better. I was suspecting possible insect damage, but I dug around today and didn't see anything.
What I did notice is that the areas that look the worst are slightly higher than surrounding areas. My backyard is so bumpy that the grass in the higher parts of the yard is getting cut lower. Thus, the discoloration and spotted look.

Applied air-8 today at 9 oz/k. Might have gone a little heavier than that because I was using a hose-end sprayer, which is relatively difficult to control.

Applied alfalfa meal to the bluegrass.

I believe that my Midnight is seeding.


----------



## pennstater2005

I get that same discoloration due to unevenness in my backyard. Any plans to remedy that?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I get that same discoloration due to unevenness in my backyard. Any plans to remedy that?


No, I am not planning to smooth it out. The fact that my lawn is so uneven isn't something I notice too much with a high HOC. It mostly becomes apparent when I am being knocked around on my riding mower (it gets real bumpy) or when trying to stripe.

Last year I did put some extra dirt in certain areas to smooth things over, but it really didn't help. To address the issue, I would probably take Connor Ward's approach, but I'm not in the market to take a project like that on right now.


----------



## Budstl

@social port you got any pics of your midnight kbg yet?. What hoc are you going with this year?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> @social port you got any pics of your midnight kbg yet?. What hoc are you going with this year?


Hey Bud, the midnight is looking better, at least in color, but the plot still needs work. One thing that I learned about growing bluegrass: In addition to being maddening, the pout phase makes weed invasion more likely. The midnight in particular got hit hard with weeds. I just hit them back with a second app of triclopyr. I'm going to give it 2 weeks for the postM and the alfalfa to kick in, and then it might be worthy of a pic. It just isn't quite a stand yet.
I'm thinking about 2.5 for the bluegrass. It is growing next to my house, and the area gets some shade. I'm thinking that will help the ground to stay wet when it counts during the summer.
No fungicide.
What?
Yep, that's right. I want to see how the grass does without the fungicide. If it can tolerate disease as well as the fescue, then I might transition.


----------



## Budstl

@social port I'm going no fungicide as well this year. It does seem like the kbg takes a while for spring green up to happen.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> @social port I'm going no fungicide as well this year. It does seem like the kbg takes a while for spring green up to happen.


Wow, man, that is cool !! :beer: Bluegrass with no fungicide in the T'zone. What could go wrong :lol: 
My 3-way mix already has powdery mildew. Ain't scared.

By the way, this spring my fescue greened up before my bluegrass. But once the bluegrass started greening, it came on strong. Now it is greener than the fescue.


----------



## Budstl

Nobody knows but the lawn gods. What's your fertilizer plan? I think for me I'll do an app late april and then (try) hold off until fall. I used to follow the milo schedule, but i want to see how this goes. Hopefully to prevent a fungus outbreak


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Nobody knows but the lawn gods. What's your fertilizer plan? I think for me I'll do an app late april and then (try) hold off until fall. I used to follow the milo schedule, but i want to see how this goes. Hopefully to prevent a fungus outbreak


If we can get through the season with fungicide free bluegrass, then, imo, the bluegrass door gets opened even wider for all of us in the transition zone. That would be pretty remarkable given the conventional wisdom.

Here is the tentative plan for fert:
I did a heavy (.75/lb) app of balanced fert in late Feb (a bit too early, probably)
I just used alfalfa meal
In two weeks, I'll do a very light feeding of balanced fert
That will probably do it for me,
but depending on temps, I may try to get another light feeding of balanced fert before 5/15 or so. 
The rationale for the balanced fert is the potassium; I figure that it may help with resistance--emphasis on may.
I plan to look into the blitz this fall.


----------



## LawnNerd

social port said:


> Compared to the fescue, the bluegrass stayed greener for longer going into winter. The fescue greened more quickly and began growing earlier than the bluegrass this spring. That pattern may change as the bluegrass matures.


Nah.. My Kbg is still waking up. Fescue is mostly full throttle awake.


----------



## social port

hey, What's up @LawnNerd! Good to see you again.
FWIW, the Award, NuGlade, and Mazama mix looks better than the midnight, at least to my eye. The 3-way stand is darker, and it established quicker. I'm going to let the weeds clear out and then take some pics soon.


----------



## LawnNerd

I'm glad that mix is rocking the color! I'm anxious to see my surrogate babies. Lol


----------



## drenglish

@Budstl @social port. Man, you guys are brave running without fungicides. But hey, if the KBG can stay alive AND recover with a fall blitz, I would think that would be more desirable than overseeding and watering in baby grass each Fall.

I'm approaching this test from a different angle than you folks: can Kentucky Bluegrass be handled at a low cut in the transition zone? Fungicide support of course. I started my 120 sq foot lawn off at 0.5" this spring and hope to keep it at or below 1" going into summer...we'll see how long that lasts!

@social port I've been wanting to use alfalfa pellets for sometime now as an organic source. Last year I tried cracked corn and it was alright, just not fun watching the flock of birds take over the lawn and also the several dozen kernels that sprouted. What rate are you using with alfalfa?


----------



## social port

drenglish said:


> would think that would be more desirable than overseeding and watering in baby grass each Fall.


Yes: no overseeding, no fungicides, more time to play with fert in the fall, repairability, and (_possibly_) slightly better color. 
I love fescue, but that list contains a lot of perks.

@Budstl pointed me towards the alfalfa. It may be preferable because of a growth hormone.
Yesterday was my first time using it, and I didn't control my app very well. I used alfalfa meal, which was more like a powder, rather than pellets. Applying it was a matter of shooting from the hip. I'm not sure what the ideal rate would be.


----------



## Budstl

@drenglish max rate for alfalfa is 20lbs/m. Tractor supply by me has it for like $13 for 50lbs.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> drenglish said:
> 
> 
> 
> would think that would be more desirable than overseeding and watering in baby grass each Fall.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes: no overseeding, no fungicides, more time to play with fert in the fall, repairability, and (_possibly_) slightly better color.
> I love fescue, but that list contains a lot of perks.
> 
> @Budstl pointed me towards the alfalfa. It may be preferable because of a growth hormone.
> Yesterday was my first time using it, and I didn't control my app very well. I used alfalfa meal, which was more like a powder, rather than pellets. Applying it was a matter of shooting from the hip. I'm not sure what the ideal rate would be.
Click to expand...

I started using alfalfa pellets last year (and liked them). It sounds like a lot, but I recall using the suggested rate of 20 lbs/k. However, the alfalfa meal should spread a little more evenly (although, I haven't used it) , and you should be able to spread a lighter coat. The growth stimulant in alfalfa is called triacontanol. You can Google search it, to find some useful information. Be prepared to mow often.

Also, make sure they are stored in a dry place. I learned the hard way last year (but that also taught me that you will definitely get them to break down faster by watering them in and keeping them moist).

Some folks have suggested using rabbit chow that has alfalfa as its main (or only component).


----------



## social port

@Chris LI, thanks for the info. All this talk about max rate led me to wonder if I overapplied, but I just ran the numbers, and I applied at .5N/lb, so that is about where I wanted to be. 
I have always shied away from cracked corn and other organics for fear of attracting rodents and other undesirables. The alfalfa meal seemed like a worthwhile risk.

I am prepared to mow. I need this bluegrass to take off. It has been growing, but it is so, so slow.


----------



## g-man

One approach that you could do with kbg is to let it go dormant in the summer. It just needs around 0.5in every 3weeks and no traffic. Once them temps drop, it recovers very fast.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> One approach that you could do with kbg is to let it go dormant in the summer. It just needs around 0.5in every 3weeks and no traffic. Once them temps drop, it recovers very fast.


YMMV with a first-year KBG lawn, though, letting it go dormant. I've heard of lots of cases that suffered losses.


----------



## g-man

Yes. Only on a mature lawn.


----------



## social port

My bluegrass isn't even out of adolescence :lol:

But seriously, I've been mulling dormancy over today. It is something that I really hadn't considered.
I'm thinking that if I took this approach, the grass would be dormant from June to late August-possibly longer. 
I would pass on that strategy, as it would mean that my grass is dormant about six months out of the year.

But that raises the question: would dormant bluegrass during the summer retain any of its color?


----------



## LawnNerd

> But that raises the question: would dormant bluegrass during the summer retain any of its color?


Not really. I let mine go dormant at one point last summer (it wasn't a year old yet). 3 weeks of straight 90's with 0.16" of rain i just couldn't keep pace and gave up. You know how it begins to darken and grey when its dry, it's like that but even more pronounced. All the leaves curl in and the yard looks thin. Add in a little brown from brown tips. Mine was only dormant for 1-2 weeks until the weather pattern changed and I started getting all this crazy rain. After a couple days of thunderstorms (rain + break from sun via clouds) it bounced right back.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I'm thinking that if I took this approach, the grass would be dormant from June to late August-possibly longer.


It would almost definitely be brownish through September and into Oct. where you are. Here, dormant grass is often still dormant through the first half of Sept. And that's bad, because mid to late Sept. is prime time for Nitrogen (mid Oct. for you), so you miss out.


----------



## social port

Well, all right fellas. I'm thinking that summer dormancy isn't the way I want to go.

It is nice to know that I have that option, though. I'm thinking that irrigation will be a must if I transition the whole lawn to bluegrass. That would make things far more manageable.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> if I transition the whole lawn to bluegrass.


Whoa!!! WTH? You're a fescue guy. You can't just up and change. What about the rest of us. :lol:


----------



## social port

Mowed the entire lawn today. The bluegrass was cut at 2.5 inches. That took off the slightest amount for the bluegrass.

The fescue in my backyard was mowed at 3 inches again.
Front and side yards cut at 4.5, as usual. 
Here is a picture of the side yard at sunset. This is formerly known as the Bermuda Warfield.

After I mowed I brought the deck on my Gravely down to 2 inches to see if it would stripe.
Not quite the result I was hoping for, so on to other methods.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> if I transition the whole lawn to bluegrass.
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa!!! WTH? You're a fescue guy. You can't just up and change. What about the rest of us. :lol:
Click to expand...

 :lol: 
That I am, for sure.
And I'm getting way ahead of myself. I need to see how the bluegrass project goes. I'm just thinking :
That bluegrass is GREEN. And I have finally seen that blue-ish tint. What can I say? I'm a fan.


----------



## Green

@pennstater2005, I'll try to talk him down, but it'll probably just have the opposite effect!

@social port, SOME bluegrass is dark green. Not all. Around here, we have many bluegrass or partly bluegrass lawns that are light to medium green Also, you start planting KBG, and your incidence of Poa Triv contamination goes way up, because the seeds look the same and they can't filter them by size. At least with TTTF, they can filter better (according to Stephen at Hogan).Never having dealt with Bermuda, but dealing with Triv, my gut feeling is that Triv is just as bad.

TTTF also tends to be more insect resistant. And of course, if you have shade...

I would probably pick a well-delineated area to consider redoing in KBG if it were me, assuming it goes well this Summer and you still want to do it. I say well-delineated so that it doesn't look like you were forced to reseed a section and the new grass didn't match the old. Chances are, the TTTF will look better in July and August, and the KBG will look better in Spring and Fall, as you've already started seeing. Winter is a tossup. Domination lines in your own property can be dangerous, though...so well-delineated is the key phrase here.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I'll try to talk him down, but it'll probably just have the opposite effect!


 :lol:

Point well taken, Green. Very much so. Last year I added a TTTF cultivar to the lawn. Now I can see this new cultivar in areas that were bare. The look of the lawn as a whole is less uniform.

It's funny that you mention triv and kbg. I have never seen poa annua in my lawn before. Now, after seeding kbg, I have annua in my lawn. It occurred to me that annua seeds inevitably make it into kbg seed bags, despite best efforts; but I was just speculating.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> It's funny that you mention triv and kbg. I have never seen poa annua in my lawn before. Now, after seeding kbg, I have annua in my lawn. It occurred to me that annua seeds inevitably make it into kbg seed bags, despite best efforts; but I was just speculating.


Yup. I've been buying mostly 0.00% weed and other crop seed. In fact, for some parts of the lawn, since 2014 I have only used 0.00%, Blue Tag seed, yet I still have a Triv problem. Annua is controllable with effort. Triv is something else. I go around marking my spots with flags now, so I know where I need to kill. I swear some of that 0/0 Blue Tag KBG seed must have had Triv seeds in it despite what the labels said and the best efforts by everyone along the supply chain to avoid it.


----------



## LawnNerd

Green said:


> .Never having dealt with Bermuda, but dealing with Triv, my gut feeling is that Triv is just as bad.


Hmmm... I'd say that triv might have a slight edge in the race of who is worse. While Bermuda does grow faster, and will eat you alive if you stand in the yard long enough... It's also green and growing in August allowing for a good kill. This then immediatly turns around to seeding in September which is optimum seeding time.

Triv on the other hand is dormant and gone by June here, so you'll have to kill in April and pray your spring seed makes it, or deal with the holes till September. Just no good time (ie, convenient to me at least)to deal with it.


----------



## social port

VS


----------



## social port

social port said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> fungus?
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At a distance, the infection looks subtle, but it is definitely there. I think I suffered some losses already.
> I noticed some blades starting to needle.
> 
> Of the three newly established lawns in the neighborhood, all three show signs of disease. The other two lawns have infections confined to large circular patterns. There is no defined shape to the pattern of infection in my lawn.
> I think it could be leaf spot, but that is just a guess. I have completely avoided fungicides up to this point.
Click to expand...

Just following up here on this fungal infection that developed last fall, towards the end of the year. I had rust develop in the front yard, and the same area also developed what I assumed to be leaf spot (but I don't know for sure). The rust went away, but the other disease remained through the winter, and it even spread. I thought that I would lose some grass by the springtime. It looked pretty bad this winter.

I didn't take enough pictures, but I took a few before spring growth kicked off here. These were taken in early March. By this point, the areas were looking much less severe, but I still thought the grass might be dead.









This is what those same areas look like today, with zero fungicide intervention








It is possible that the disease is still present, but I don't notice it. It is also possible that I lost some grass, but if I did, I am comfortable saying that the losses had no appreciable impact on the look of the turf.

I am not advocating for a fungicide-free approach. And whatever this disease was, it wasn't brown patch-a disease that is serious. I am just following up on the outcome, as this was something of interest to some forum members, notably @Suburban Jungle Life.

(Edited to add pictures.)


----------



## social port

I mowed today. I believe that today is the first time I've mowed this year without have excess clippings. It was nice to not worry with double and triple passes.
Here is the side yard



I also finally made it to the store to pick up some fuel for my Echo PAS. I got some much needed trimming and edging done.

Here is my three-way bluegrass mix cut at 2.5 inches. I may end up taking it down to 2 inches.





If you think that you see some disease in there, I believe that you are correct. 

I assume that is leaf spot, but I don't know. It is present only in a section of the bluegrass. The affected area receives more shade than the rest of the stand. I attribute the disease to those conditions. The shaded area also has powdery mildew. That mildew has spread to the midnight as well, but much less so.


----------



## social port

A lot of sporadic rain has moved into the area over the last 2-3 days. I tried to take advantage of that yesterday.
I was able to apply 0.6lbs/k NPK to the fescue. I also applied RGS at the max rate of 6oz/k. I periodically went outside last night to monitor the intensity of the rainfall. It was ideal. My best guess is that the rain watered it in beautifully. Felt good about that.

I did not fertilize the bluegrass, though it did get the RGS app.

Finally, I have a growing Poa A infestation in one of my side yards. It is not a terrible thing, as the color of the poa is indistinguishable from the fescue. Still, I really don't want the stuff spreading. So, I thought I would try using some of the Scott's starter fert with meso in this section. I have 10 or so bags of that stuff in the garage.
Instead of using my balanced fertilizer, I used the Scott's product in this section of the yard. I used it at bag rate, covering approx 5k. Obviously, I am hopeful that it will help prevent the poa from spreading, but it is also an interesting experiment to see if I get any postM effect from meso in granular form.


----------



## social port

Sharpened the blades on my Gravely. Mowed the entire lawn. Found what I believe to be crabgrass.
Here is the front yard




Here is the side yard 



Here is the backyard. I pulled the plug on cutting at 3 inches. My grass has looked butchered every time that I cut at this height. 3.5 should be more doable. 



Here is the Midnight, not weed-free, but better than a few weeks ago

And here is the NuGlade, Mazama, and Award. It appears to be recovering from the disease. This stand has less weeds overall, but there are a few grassy weeds at the edge, one of which is FF.


----------



## Powhatan

No hesitation clicking the :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Found what I believe to be crabgrass.


I guess it's possible. Yet more evidence that you're exactly one month ahead of me.


----------



## Budstl

All looking good sp. If the bluegrass performs well for you, will you reno your whole property?


----------



## social port

Powhatan said:


> No hesitation clicking the :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Thanks, Powhatan. I'm enjoying the lawn while I can, for sure.


Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Found what I believe to be crabgrass.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it's possible. Yet more evidence that you're exactly one month ahead of me.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is interesting to compare. But somewhere over the summer, you play catch-up, and then you pass me.

From what you say re the heat and humidity of your summers, it seems like summers can get just as bad there as they do here, which means that cool season grass struggles with the same challenges in both places. What then, perhaps, makes the tzone more difficult for cool season turf is the length of those hot and humid days. We have an extra month of those kinds of days with no relief.


Budstl said:


> All looking good sp. If the bluegrass performs well for you, will you reno your whole property?


Yeah, I've been tossing that around. It is a possibility. And I would be more inclined to do that if I could do a monostand. That would be justification for me to renovate.
To make it work, I would want to smooth the lawn to make it level as possible. I would also want to do an irrigation install. Add all of that to a Midnight reno, and you are looking at an intense year!
A couple of other considerations:
Green made a point earlier about the link between PoaP and PoaT, such that you increase your chances of T when you are seeding with KBG
Parts of my front lawn receive prolonged shade, and in general, grass simply doesn't grow as well in the front. If I went all KBG, then I would be restricted to one side yard and the backyard, as I don't think KBG would work in the front.
SWMBO likes the TTTF.
I also really like...love... TTTF.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> From what you say re the heat and humidity of your summers, it seems like summers can get just as bad there as they do here, which means that cool season grass struggles with the same challenges in both places. What then, perhaps, makes the tzone more difficult for cool season turf is the length of those hot and humid days. We have an extra month of those kinds of days with no relief.


That's it exactly...we don't have as many days of 90 or higher in a row as you do, so the grass can (sort of) recover a bit in between in theory. If we get 3-5 days straight, the weather people call it a "heat wave". And some years, we might never hit a temp of 95, or a high 70s dew point. Just like some years, it might never go below 0 in the Winter (I don't know if it went below 0 this past Winter, ever). I think it's typically under 20 days per year 90 or higher, in any case. Last Summer was above average.

Dew point hit 56 the other day, which was a bit shocking for this time of year in terms of numbers.

I really like Spring here. It's great and is fairly long (minus allergies, knock on wood so far).


----------



## social port

Trimmed and mowed today.
Used the pushmower on the front yard.



Backyard and side yard got the Gravely.

After several days of heavy rain, the three-way bluegrass has taken a hit. The powdery mildew is back, as well as the other fungus. Some of the plants look like they might be toast.





The midnight is really coming to life. 


Time for another round of fertilizer for the bluegrass.

I noticed No post emergent effects to the poa A from the granular meso app.


----------



## pennstater2005

There's those 3D looking stripes again.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> There's those 3D looking stripes again.


I used my el-cheapo striper. A hollow bar with a heavy piece of metal inside and secured to the mower flap via zip ties. I really need to bite the bullet and get a checkmate. I've just been holding out for the possibility that I might be able to construct a better striper.


----------



## social port

Did a quick cut on all sections of the lawn today. Both the fescue and bluegrass are producing seeds.
The three-way mix of bluegrass is still growing more rapidly than the midnight, though disease pressure continues to increase in the three-way mix.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Did a quick cut on all sections of the lawn today. Both the fescue and bluegrass are producing seeds.
> The three-way mix of bluegrass is still growing more rapidly than the midnight, though disease pressure continues to increase in the three-way mix.


Are you doing fungicides this year?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a quick cut on all sections of the lawn today. Both the fescue and bluegrass are producing seeds.
> The three-way mix of bluegrass is still growing more rapidly than the midnight, though disease pressure continues to increase in the three-way mix.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you doing fungicides this year?
Click to expand...

No. I know that my fescue can survive without fungicide. The bluegrass would need to do the same in order for me to convert more of the fescue to bluegrass in the future. 
So this year is partly a test to see how well the bluegrass does without a fungicide.


----------



## jjepeto

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a quick cut on all sections of the lawn today. Both the fescue and bluegrass are producing seeds.
> The three-way mix of bluegrass is still growing more rapidly than the midnight, though disease pressure continues to increase in the three-way mix.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you doing fungicides this year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. I know that my fescue can survive without fungicide. The bluegrass would need to do the same in order for me to convert more of the fescue to bluegrass in the future.
> So this year is partly a test to see how well the bluegrass does without a fungicide.
Click to expand...

I'm in a similar situation as you; in the transition zone, want more bluegrass than fescue. I hope you keep us updated on how the bluegrass gets through the summer. How much sun/shade does your bluegrass area get?


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did a quick cut on all sections of the lawn today. Both the fescue and bluegrass are producing seeds.
> The three-way mix of bluegrass is still growing more rapidly than the midnight, though disease pressure continues to increase in the three-way mix.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you doing fungicides this year?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. I know that my fescue can survive without fungicide. The bluegrass would need to do the same in order for me to convert more of the fescue to bluegrass in the future.
> So this year is partly a test to see how well the bluegrass does without a fungicide.
Click to expand...

I though I remembered something about no fungicide. I don't plan on using any either. I do have a little leftover and if it's get bad I might use it.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you doing fungicides this year?
> 
> 
> 
> No. I know that my fescue can survive without fungicide. The bluegrass would need to do the same in order for me to convert more of the fescue to bluegrass in the future.
> So this year is partly a test to see how well the bluegrass does without a fungicide.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I though I remembered something about no fungicide. I don't plan on using any either. I do have a little leftover and if it's get bad I might use it.
Click to expand...

If push comes to shove, I do wonder if I will break and use a curative app to save the bluegrass. It would be hard to see that stand die off. But I am going to try to stick to my guns.

Thus far, my sense is that N apps have made a difference, as pressure decreases promptly after fertilizer apps. I'm about to fertilize the bluegrass again, so I am hoping I get the three-way mix healthy again before disease season really kicks off.


----------



## social port

@jjepeto I do plan to provide regular updates. 
I have the bluegrass growing in two plots next to the foundation of my house. These areas are shaded by the house in the morning, and then both areas get full sun for most of the afternoon and then until sunset. 
The soil in these areas tends to stay wet, so that will help with water demands. However, I had fescue growing in these areas last year, and I saw mild to moderate disease pressure throughout the summer.

There is another forum member (Budstl) who is growing bluegrass in the t'zone and is doing so without fungicide. In some ways, his is a better test case because he is growing in a larger area, while my growing conditions are rather specific. 
There are also other forum members in NC who are growing bluegrass. They all (smartly) use fungicides, I believe.


----------



## social port

Today: Ideal temps. A fresh cut. Recent fert app. Recent RGS app. I'm thinking this is going to be the best my fescue is going to look this year, at least in terms of color. Now I just need to invent the world's best striper. 



The second pic is in the backyard where HOC is 3.5 rather than my usual 4.5.


----------



## Green

@social port, with so many cultivars of KBG with different disease tolerances, you're bound to eventually find a blend that works for you if the Midnight or blend you're trying ends up having issues with your most common fungal diseases that plague your area. Did you select the ones you did based on that (e.g. brown patch resistance)?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Did you select the ones you did based on that (e.g. brown patch resistance)?


Not so much. I treated the effort more as an experiment.
The three-way blend came by way of the generosity of another forum member. I just had the opportunity to give it a try.
And I selected Midnight as my monostand cultivar primarily because of its color. I do remember reading that Midnight is either more heat or disease tolerant than other cultivars, thereby making it a better choice for the transition zone. At the moment, I can't remember what sources I was using to inform my decision. I did look at NTEP data at some point, but I was pretty sold on Midnight by the time I looked at those data.


----------



## Budstl

You ever see this thread on a midnight mono?
https://aroundtheyard.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=21387

I for sure would like to do a midnight mono. Maybe in a couple of years.


----------



## Green

Mercury may be another to look into in the future. I discovered it recently, and took delivery of 1 lb of seed today. Not sure when I'll use it, but when I do, I'll probably do a tray of it. It's A-list approved, which is supposed to be for drought tolerance. It's also descended from Princeton-105 (not sure if that's still around), which I guess is/was an aggressive type, so Mercury, too, is pretty aggressive and has a high sod strength, apparently.

I haven't tried Midnight myself, yet. Someday. I went with Rugby II as my Midnight type because it wasn't as crazy dark (it's still pretty dark, though). Back when I picked my seed out (2012), most Tall Fescue wasn't quite as dark green as the newest ones are today, and I needed KBG that would mix well with it. Rugby II and Bewitched ended up being great choices; Rugby II matched the TTTF color almost exactly, while Bewitched was slightly darker. The America is noticeably lighter than the other two as well as the Fescue most of the year.

Were you ever a member on the other site? I could have sworn you were, under a different name; you seemed familiar when I started here.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> You ever see this thread on a midnight mono?
> https://aroundtheyard.com/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=21387
> 
> I for sure would like to do a midnight mono. Maybe in a couple of years.


Hey Bud, 
No, I did not see that thread. It looks like it came out well, especially in the front yard. Mine is still a long way from looking like that, but maybe it will get there. Wait until November?
For some reason, I am just set on a monostand if I ever go full KBG.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Mercury may be another to look into in the future.


thanks for that suggestion. Mercury is not one that I am familiar with.

I used this sheet a few years ago when I began thinking about bluegrass
http://newsomseed.com/resources/KentBlueClass.pdf
It may not be the most accurate or may lose some finer details, but for me, this was a great starting point to think about cultivar options.
I always found it confusing that Midnight is a cultivar, but it also describes a broader class (type) of bluegrass as well.



Green said:


> Were you ever a member on the other site? I could have sworn you were, under a different name; you seemed familiar when I started here


Maybe my obsession with turf seemed familiar? :ugeek: I was only a lurker at the other site -- mostly reading old threads. I did join a few years ago, but I don't think I ever posted. It is a great source of information.


----------



## social port

Mowed, trimmed, edged. The grass was a little overgrown. 
Hand-pulled some grassy weeds. 
Bermuda is no longer dormant in my climate, so I am on the lookout. 
I have a surge of some unusual grassy weeds. I can't identify them. They are very small, look like FF, but they are lime colored. They are stiff, almost brush-like, and they do not pull up easily.

Backyard, mowed in three circles (I wanted to mix things up)



NuGlade, Mazama, Award. Still hanging in there, but not very happy



Midnight


----------



## Togo

@social port those KBG sections are looking quite nice. The 3 way section looks like dark green carpet.


----------



## social port

thanks, @Togo. I've watched the bluegrass oscillate this spring. I still am not sure how it is going to do, but sections of it look better than others, for sure. In terms of being able to endure a summer, neither stand is looking quite how I want it to look. I'm right on the edge of disease season, so play-time is over. I'm going to sit back and see how it goes. But I really like the bluegrass, and I want it to survive.


----------



## Togo

I'm interested to see how it handles both your disease season and summer. I've struggled with disease issues the past couple years myself and want to see how it does for you this season. I'd like to do a KBG mix at some point so I'm taking pointers now. Hopefully it works out well for you.


----------



## social port

Got up early this morning to tend the bluegrass. For both stands of bluegrass:
Applied .5 lbs NPK/k from balanced fert and another .5 lb K/k from MOP. 
Applied air - 8, RGS, and humic -12 (all applied at one ounce lower than their respective max rates).
Hooked up my MP rotators to gently water everything in. 
Had a cup of coffee on the porch and enjoyed the lawn. Good way to start the day.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Got up early this morning to tend the bluegrass. For both stands of bluegrass:
> Applied .5 lbs NPK/k from balanced fert and another .5 lb K/k from MOP.
> Applied air - 8, RGS, and humic -12 (all applied at one ounce lower than their respective max rates).
> Hooked up my MP rotators to gently water everything in.
> Had a cup of coffee on the porch and enjoyed the lawn. Good way to start the day.


You're a busy man SP!


----------



## social port

Had a quick mow today in anticipation of heavy rains over the next several days.

Backyard is doing well at the new HOC of 3.5 


I haven't seen much of a color response in the bluegrass from my recent fert app. I'm wondering if the fertilizer got wet back in the winter. I need to hit the weeds again ASAP.

The three-way



The midnight



Here are some of my fescue reno areas that were struggling. This is what the area looked like in November last year



This is today. I've about arrived at the conclusion that the wetter the area, the longer it takes for fescue to get on its feet. Probably true of most grass types, I expect.


----------



## Green

@social port, I agree. Wetness seems to stunt the grass. My wet areas (thankfully) haven't grown enough to mow yet (because they're waterlogged).


----------



## social port

Mowed today.

The bluegrass shot up over the last several days. That was probably a combination of copious amounts of rain and the recent app of fert, air-8, RGS, and humic-12.

The 3-way mix is struggling, despite the surge in growth


Midnight 


For anyone following closely: the bluegrass is being cut at 2 inches. I'm planning to keep it there all summer.

TTTF, cut at 3.5


----------



## pennstater2005

TTTF looking stout! The three way KBG actually has fairly dark color.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> TTTF looking stout! The three way KBG actually has fairly dark color.


it is dark, but it is struggling with disease. It is getting pretty bad. And I am just now heading into the start of disease season. I'm still hopeful, though.


----------



## Green

The TTTF looks best to me.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> The TTTF looks best to me.


I still have to say that the TTTF looks better to me.
But the color of the blugrass is very close to the fescue. It is kind of difficult to describe. The bluegrass looks like a darker green -- closer to hunter green, perhaps; but the fescue has a deeper green, and when hit with sunlight, some of the blades take on a silvery cast. 
I've also noticed that the bluegrass is easier to cut.

I've really enjoyed comparing them this year.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looking good. The TTTF is so thick. Bluegrass looks like it's hanging tough too.


----------



## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Looking good. The TTTF is so thick. Bluegrass looks like it's hanging tough too.


Thanks, SNOWBOB. I love the blanket look of thick fescue.


----------



## social port

Lots of rain over the last several days, and that has foiled my plans for postM.

There was a rain break today, so I mowed the yard. This weekend will be wet, so I am planning to do another round of N-Ext apps and also apply some MOP.

There is a dry stretch forecasted for early next week, so I hope to mix a little herbicide cocktail. Lots of broadleaf pressure at the moment. I have quite a few grassy weeds that I am trying to identify.

pics of bluegrass and backyard coming up.


----------



## social port

Three-way bluegrass


Midnight, a bit weedy at the moment


TTTF, with another fun mowing pattern


----------



## j4c11

What's the HOC on the KBG?

Midnight darkens significantly to a dark blue in year 2. I have a small patch of pure Midnight from last year and the color is spectacular. Very tempted to renovate to a Midnight monostand this year.


----------



## social port

j4c11 said:


> What's the HOC on the KBG?


About 2 inches


j4c11 said:


> Very tempted to renovate to a Midnight monostand this year.


Speaking my language!

I absolutely love my fescue, but I can't tell you how many times I think about doing a Midnight mono; maybe in just one section of my lawn.


----------



## g-man

@social port I see a white hue to your lawn. I normally see that when the leaves blades are torn instead of cut. Pull out a leaf and check for the quality of cut.


----------



## social port

@g-man, yes, cut quality has been an issue this year. The trend is a very inconsistent cut quality-some blades are cut cleanly, while others get torn. I've tried to resolve this, but I can't pinpoint the source of the problem. I sharpen and balance my blades often (at least three times per month. 
The image below shows variation in cut quality. The left two are bluegrass, the right two are fescue 
If you have any ideas, I'm eager to hear them.


----------



## Budstl

@social port are your blades on correctly? 3 times a month seems like a lot of sharpening. My ferris dealer recommend me to sharpen every 8 hours on the mower. Is this on your gravely mower? Are the tires aired up the same? Just some thoughts.


----------



## g-man

Check your rpm at the shaft/blades. Have you try razor sharp?

That cut looks beat up, which promotes disease/fungus.


----------



## social port

Thanks for the feedback.
This is my pushmower. This view is from the front that has been lifted up so that the mower is resting on its rear tires. Everything is as it should be, as far as I know.

@Budstl three times a month may be overkill, but since I'm not getting a good cut, my answer has been to sharpen more often. I probably mow 2-3 hours per week with the Gravely. Tire pressure is on point for the Gravely tires. 
The mower that gives me the most trouble is the Gravely. It rips and tears in places, and I never know when or where it's going to happen. My pushmower cuts much cleaner, but I use it to cut the bluegrass, and as you can see, the cut isn't perfect there either.

@g-man the fungus is really what has me concerned with regard to the cut quality. I've been trying to get things resolved by summer. 
I do a fingernail test at multiple points on the blade. I make sure that I can shave a little.
I have not checked RPMs. Do you have a reliable method of assessing RPM? A tachometer at the spark plug?


----------



## g-man

Rpm is measured with a tachmeter. Then you need to calculate blade tip speed as a function of blade length. Before all that, speed it up a bit (1/4 of a turn) and see if it improves, if it does then you know you need to get that right. If it doesn't, then that's not it and return the rpm down.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Rpm is measured with a tachmeter. Then you need to calculate blade tip speed as a function of blade length. Before all that, speed it up a bit (1/4 of a turn) and see if it improves, if it does then you know you need to get that right. If it doesn't, then that's not it and return the rpm down.


Thanks for the pointers, g-man. This is an area that I know nothing about, so I am trying to do some education in my free time. I can't wait to make an adjustment to see if that helps with the cut.


----------



## Butter

@social port 
I have white tips every year about this time. Some years it's worse than others. I've sharpened blades razor sharp, kinda razor sharp, cleaned the deck, I've even borrowed a mower. Nothing seems to help. The only thing I've kinda figured out is it happens as the TTTF thickens up and tries to seed which also coincides with the rainy season and being forced to mow when it's too tall. I'd love to hear other opinions on this.


----------



## pennstater2005

Well, white tips and all your fescue still kicks ***.


----------



## social port

Very interesting, @Butter . Good to hear this feedback. My fescue is producing seeds at the moment.
The timing is terrible, though. It is wet, and we are right on the edge of disease season (it has started as far as I can tell)...hmmm...I think I'll injure the grass every time I mow. That'll be good.
I'm going to try the RPM adjustment. If that doesn't help, then I'm seriously thinking about a different mower. 
I believe @Chris LI recently mentioned that he has trouble getting a clean cut with his fescue.



Butter said:


> I'd love to hear other opinions on this.


Definitely!



pennstater2005 said:


> Well, white tips and all your fescue still kicks @ss.


 Thanks, pennstater! To be honest, I don't know how g-man even noticed it. I think the 'g' must stand for grass.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Very interesting, @Butter . Good to hear this feedback. My fescue is producing seeds at the moment.
> The timing is terrible, though. It is wet, and we are right on the edge of disease season (it has started as far as I can tell)...hmmm...I think I'll injure the grass every time I mow. That'll be good.
> I'm going to try the RPM adjustment. If that doesn't help, then I'm seriously thinking about a different mower.
> I believe @Chris LI recently mentioned that he has trouble getting a clean cut with his fescue.
> 
> 
> 
> Butter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love to hear other opinions on this.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely!
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, white tips and all your fescue still kicks @ss.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, pennstater! To be honest, I don't know how g-man even noticed it. I think the 'g' must stand for grass.
Click to expand...

I think the lack of clear cut for the TTTF is due to a few reasons:
1. The coarseness of the leaf blade with all the striations (have you ever been 'paper cut' by TTTF [or K-31]? I have).
2. Lack of a boat tip leaf tip like kbg 
3. Non-razor sharp mower blade
4. Low HOC (where applicable). While mowing lower to improve kbg density (2"), the TTTF doesn't like it. It likes 3"+ HOC.

I think a reel mower would reduce rough blade tips it to some extent. Some folks are doing this. Please pipe up, those who have mowed TTTF with a reel mower.


----------



## social port

A couple of thoughts:

If I recall correctly, last year @g-man did use a reel mower to cut a mix of bluegrass and fescue (maybe a little rye, too; not sure). I can't remember how the fescue tolerated the cut over time.

If there are periods when it is difficult to get clean cut with fescue - and this is something that is intrinsic to fescue as a grass - then I wonder why hasn't Prof Pete hasn't made a video addressing this issue. With his business, the guy has been around more fescue than many (most?) of us ever will. And, AFAIK, his business offers mowing services. He would have observed this problem. Yet I don't recall any video on this problem of fescue being difficult to cut, if only periodically.

Is there a reel that will cut at 4.5 inches? I am partial to the John Deere riding reels. 



Chris LI said:


> 1. The coarseness of the leaf blade with all the striations (have you ever been 'paper cut' by TTTF [or K-31]? I have).


I wonder if irrigation practices might also play a role here. The idea would be that fescue is either easier or harder to cut based on the amount of water the plant has been exposed to (I'm just thinking out loud on this one).


----------



## g-man

I mowed my northern mix between 1in and 3/4in last year. For winter, I kept it at 1in and it is still at 1in. I did great. the TTTf is still there. I was concerned with it looking very white heading out of winter, but it is still going strong. It is not something I recommend without KBG in the bckground.

During seedhead production (~may), the lawns look white. It is just normal since the seedhead take energy to form a strong seedhead.


----------



## social port

wow @g-man. I was thinking that you may have gotten rid of that mix. I have to say that it is breaking some brains to know that you are cutting fescue at one inch and below.

Of course, I hear this as well:


g-man said:


> It is not something I recommend without KBG in the bckground.


----------



## Budstl

Sp you have the throttle all the way up when mowing with the gravely?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Sp you have the throttle all the way up when mowing with the gravely?


Yes. Wide open. 
I'm hoping to get some time to pretend to be a mechanic today.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Rpm is measured with a tachmeter. Then you need to calculate blade tip speed as a function of blade length. Before all that, speed it up a bit (1/4 of a turn) and see if it improves, if it does then you know you need to get that right. If it doesn't, then that's not it and return the rpm down.


I increased the RPM on my pushmower (the engine ran louder after the adjustment) and then took it for a spin. Same result: mixed cutting quality. Some blades are cleanly cut, and others are torn. 
The Gravely's design is more complex than the one on my pushmower, and I got lost on which spring did what. All the manual says is not to make any RPM adjustment.

I keep on thinking that the issue may be in how I sharpen my blades. I referenced a few YouTube videos to compare, and it looks like I am doing everything correctly. 
The only thing that comes to mind is that I don't make a final pass to clean any leftover burs. I wonder if that might make a difference.

In other news, I wasn't able to get my post M down today, and now my grass needs to be mowed again. I believe that the bluegrass is now growing more quickly than the fescue. Inexplicably, it is looking much, much healthier.

I've taken some comparison shots of the bluegrass and fescue-both of which are ready to be cut.

Left half bluegrass. Right half fescue 


Bluegrass foreground. Fescue background


Fescue foreground. Bluegrass background. 


The bluegrass shots are from my three-way mix of Award, Mazama, and NuGlade.


----------



## Togo

@social port are you blade tips square? As in, where your sharpened edge reaches the end of the blade is it still a right angle or has it rounded out some? I know if the tip rounds out it can cause cut issues, usually I think it results in stragglers that get left uncut but maybe could also effect the cut quality.

Here is a picture of an old blade to show what I mean. The more that tip rounds out the worse cut quality can/will get.



I'm assuming your blades are pretty new as your mower is new but I figure it's worth mentioning.

EDIT: I'm not saying if it looks like above it's no good. Those are just some blades I don't use as much anymore that had readily available to take a picture. I would think it needs to be much more rounded to be detrimental to your cut quality.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The coarseness of the leaf blade with all the striations (have you ever been 'paper cut' by TTTF [or K-31]? I have).
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if irrigation practices might also play a role here. The idea would be that fescue is either easier or harder to cut based on the amount of water the plant has been exposed to (I'm just thinking out loud on this one).
Click to expand...

I think you may be into something with this. I recall reading somewhere about TTTF having developed coarser textured blades over time if the turf stand becomes stressed and thinned. I recall seeing some of this in my yard, but it could have just been the TTTF maturing in its second or third year. I don't have evidence to back this up.


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> @social port are you blade tips square? As in, where your sharpened edge reaches the end of the blade is it still a right angle or has it rounded out some? I know if the tip rounds out it can cause cut issues, usually I think it results in stragglers that get left uncut but maybe could also effect the cut quality.
> 
> Here is a picture of an old blade to show what I mean. The more that tip rounds out the worse cut quality can/will get.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming your blades are pretty new as your mower is new but I figure it's worth mentioning.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not saying if it looks like above it's no good. Those are just some blades I don't use as much anymore that had readily available to take a picture. I would think it needs to be much more rounded to be detrimental to your cut quality.


Togo, thanks for the feedback. That is a good question, and it is not something I had looked for. I pulled the blades off to check. The right angles are intact. All blades in question are less than a year old, I believe.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The coarseness of the leaf blade with all the striations (have you ever been 'paper cut' by TTTF [or K-31]? I have).
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if irrigation practices might also play a role here. The idea would be that fescue is either easier or harder to cut based on the amount of water the plant has been exposed to (I'm just thinking out loud on this one).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you may be into something with this. I recall reading somewhere about TTTF having developed coarser textured blades over time if the turf stand becomes stressed and thinned. I recall seeing some of this in my yard, but it could have just been the TTTF maturing in its second or third year. I don't have evidence to back this up.
Click to expand...

Hmmm... @Butter, do you have irrigation? I checked your thread, but couldn't find any info on the matter. BTW, your lawn looks great. Your mix contained firecracker and speedway, two cultivars that I've been wanting to try for a while now.


----------



## Butter

@social port
I do have irrigation however I just installed it in July and haven't even turned it on this year. We had 10.6" of rain in 10 days.
I am still inclined to think that the white tips has a lot to do with the TTTF getting stemmy(?) and trying to seed. I may start a thread in the cool season forum so as not to clog up your journal.
Yes, Firecracker and Speedway were in the Green Resistor that I seeded with. I don't know that I could pick them out.


----------



## social port

Update on the problem of not getting a clean cut:
The other day I stopped by the mower shop to have them check out my blades. I'm just being thorough here. They said that everything was in order.
The issue must be with the RPMs.

I have sharpened my blades again just for fun. 
I figured out how to adjust RPMs on my Gravely. I'm also going to increase the RPMs on my pushmower. Tomorrow will be the test to see how well the problem is resolved. I must mow. I think I am 4-5 days overgrown.

In other news,
I got a postM app today -- WBG with quinclorac. Mixed with triclopry (WBGCCO). NIS and AS as additions.
The good news is that I was able to get all of the weeds with just one tank (4 gallons). It was awesome to need to mix just once!
The bad news is that an unpredicted thunderstorm popped up during my last three passes. It rained, but very slightly -- the sidewalk was dotted with drops. It never formed a blanket of water. I am hopeful that the rain was minimal enough to not wash anything off the leaves.

Broadleaf weed pressure is pretty low. At this point I have an assortment of grassy weeds, and I don't know where they came from or what they are. One looks a lot like bermuda, but I don't think it is. It isn't nimblewill either.


----------



## Green

Bentgrass?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Bentgrass?


Green, that is a good thought. From what I can tell, the blades are too wide to be bentgrass. The width is closer to clumping fescue. I've had the unsettling thought that it could be a common bermuda that I simply don't recognize; most of the bermuda that I've killed has been the narrow-leaf variety. I can't find any runners.


----------



## Chris LI

Togo said:


> @social port are you blade tips square? As in, where your sharpened edge reaches the end of the blade is it still a right angle or has it rounded out some? I know if the tip rounds out it can cause cut issues, usually I think it results in stragglers that get left uncut but maybe could also effect the cut quality.
> 
> Here is a picture of an old blade to show what I mean. The more that tip rounds out the worse cut quality can/will get.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming your blades are pretty new as your mower is new but I figure it's worth mentioning.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not saying if it looks like above it's no good. Those are just some blades I don't use as much anymore that had readily available to take a picture. I would think it needs to be much more rounded to be detrimental to your cut quality.


Good point!

This is a good reason to check member's journals out. Besides trying to give helpful info out, we can learn something. I just ordered a new Gator blade, because mine is a bit rounder than that. :roll:

I'll reserve it for leaf mulching, heavy clean up times with twigs, and backup duties.

Thank you.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port What is your mix rate for WBG and triclopyr?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port What is your mix rate for WBG and triclopyr?


For CCO: 1 fl oz per gallon 
For WBG with crab control (quin): 2.5 fl oz per gallon
Spot spraying


----------



## social port

I also use 2-3 oz of AS per gallon


----------



## Togo

Chris LI said:


> Togo said:
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT: I'm not saying if it looks like above it's no good. Those are just some blades I don't use as much anymore that had readily available to take a picture. I would think it needs to be much more rounded to be detrimental to your cut quality.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point!
> 
> This is a good reason to check member's journals out. Besides trying to give helpful info out, we can learn something. I just ordered a new Gator blade, because mine is a bit rounder than that. :roll:
> 
> I'll reserve it for leaf mulching, heavy clean up times with twigs, and backup duties.
> 
> Thank you.
Click to expand...

Just want to reiterate I don't think that picture represents a "bad blade" but just one that I had laying around to illustrate what I was trying to say...

But yes if that corner rounds out significantly, it will effect the cut quality.

@social port I hope the rpm corrects your issue. If not, only other thing I can think to check is if you have an adjustable baffle system under the deck and maybe using a different setting would have any effect on the cut quality. My rational being maybe a different setting would create more suction, thus standing the blades up more or holding them upright for a cleaner cut? Is it possible that the blades are long enough that they are laying over some as the blades hit them causing a less than clean cut? Idk, just kinda thinking out loud here. Does it happen at or have you tried lower cut heights?


----------



## social port

Hey @Togo . There are some really good ideas here. I do think it is entirely possible that some of the grass is laying over, but the tearing happens at lower HOCs as well. 
I'm going to be mowing this afternoon. If the problem is still there, then I need to look into the baffle system. I'm way out of my knowledge base here. Does the baffle affect the pitch?


----------



## social port

By the way, @pennstater2005 , I'm not sure that I've used that particular cocktail before, so I'm not sure how safe it is. 
I remember getting the idea from somewhere that it would be ok to mix them, so I thought I would try it.


----------



## Togo

No it won't change the pitch at all. If I were home I'd take a picture of the baffle on my mower since it's currently sitting on the floor in my garage :lol:

It's usually just a piece of metal that bolts right up to the front of the deck, underneath. If it's adjustable you'll notice it has two or three holes cut so that you can raise or lower it basically. Some machines allow you to adjust its range closer to or further away from the blades, however my Scag does NOT do that. I think Toro has a deck design like that so basically your Gravely could or could not have a feature like that.

This is a similar deck to mine and it illustrates what I mean, the front baffle is the same. 

If you look closely at "*C*" you'll see that's it's bolted in place to another section running parallel to it. The other section is welded to the deck and the part labeled "*C*" can be raised or lowered along that piece.

It adjusts the suction created under the deck but conversely could also be laying the grass down before it comes into the deck, so idk which would be better, to raise or lower it, but you may only have two settings so try the other one?


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> By the way, @pennstater2005 , I'm not sure that I've used that particular cocktail before, so I'm not sure how safe it is.
> I remember getting the idea from somewhere that it would be ok to mix them, so I thought I would try it.


Well, if it doesn't kill your grass I'll try it :lol:


----------



## social port

Awesome, @Togo . Thank you. I'm going to look when I reinstall my blades. Thanks for taking the time to do that. :thumbup:


----------



## Togo

You got it. :thumbup:

I'll snap a better shot when I get home tonight. I took mine off when I installed a mulch kit because it comes with a specifically designed mulch baffle.


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> You got it. :thumbup:
> 
> I'll snap a better shot when I get home tonight. I took mine off when I installed a mulch kit because it comes with a specifically designed mulch baffle.


Is it the piece in the upper left part of the photo? It extends all the way to the other side.


----------



## Budstl

Check this out.
https://youtu.be/hxbWIozWTzM


----------



## social port

Thanks, @Budstl . I don't see a place to make an adjustment. I'll check one more time. The adjustment plate could be hiding behind some build-up


----------



## social port

Thanks, everyone, for the ideas and help. 
I wasn't able to locate a place to make an adjustment. 


The cut quality was improved with the push mower. It cut the bluegrass better



But still struggled some with the fescue



the Gravely cut the fescue a little better, but tearing is still evident. I may not have made the best rpm adjustments. I think I should buy a tachometer and use that as a guide.



I'm going to be away from the lawn for a week, so it's going to be a bit before I can continue tackling this problem.

In other news, there is some bluegrass that is looking great down in Tennessee


----------



## social port

Couple of additional notes:
A while back I applied some granular mesotrione (via Scott's Starter Fert) to some poa A to see if it might work as post emergent control- just a casual 'let's see what happens' situation. The granular meso never had much of an effect, but virtually no new plants formed, so it was wonderfully effective as a preM. Not surprising, but still a nice result.

I have an empty lot next to my side yard, and the weeds have grown up to, I'm guessing, 4 feet. Someone cut them down today. I had to clean up 20 or so of these bad boys


If I have a surge of new weeds, this is a reminder of where they may have come from.


----------



## Togo

social port said:


> Togo said:
> 
> 
> 
> You got it. :thumbup:
> 
> I'll snap a better shot when I get home tonight. I took mine off when I installed a mulch kit because it comes with a specifically designed mulch baffle.
> 
> 
> 
> Is it the piece in the upper left part of the photo? It extends all the way to the other side.
Click to expand...

Yes that would be what I was talking about. If it's adjustable, which from what I read it isn't, you'd have some bolts you could loosen to raise or drop it.


----------



## Togo

social port said:


> Thanks, everyone, for the ideas and help.
> I wasn't able to locate a place to make an adjustment.
> 
> 
> The cut quality was improved with the push mower. It cut the bluegrass better
> 
> 
> 
> But still struggled some with the fescue
> 
> 
> 
> the Gravely cut the fescue a little better, but tearing is still evident. I may not have made the best rpm adjustments. I think I should buy a tachometer and use that as a guide.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to be away from the lawn for a week, so it's going to be a bit before I can continue tackling this problem.
> 
> In other news, there is some bluegrass that is looking great down in Tennessee


That KBG looks great SP. I hope it fairs well for you during the fungal season and summer temps.


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> That KBG looks great SP. I hope it fairs well for you during the fungal season and summer temps.


Thanks, Togo, and thanks again for your help today. I haven't totally convinced myself that there isn't a place to make that adjustment, so I may look again once I have more time. It may be on top of the deck somewhere.


----------



## Togo

@social port you got it :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Mowed yesterday after delaying for heat and lack of rain. I spent nearly two hours fooling around with RPM adjustments yesterday, and I have concluded that I don't know enough to effectively make the changes that I need to make. I purchased a tachometer, but I am looking to get a different one that will be easier to use.

I'm due for a second round of PreM. The sooner the better.

A couple of observations.

A mix of WBG with quinclorac, WBGCCO, AMS, and NIS went down on 5/16. I had a good response, but another app is in order once the heat wave passes. *No harm* to the fescue from this mix of herbicides.

I was out of town for about 7 days. There was (and still is) a heat wave (low-to-mid 90s) while I was out of town, and absolutely no rainfall.

Most of the fescue lawns in my town are browning. At first, I thought it might be drought stress, but I think it could be heat. Even irrigated lawns are brown. Mine is not brown. Nor is the bluegrass. I see a couple of spots in my fescue that look like drought stress - that bluish color, with a little curl to the leaf. I suspect subsurface rocks are to blame.

To be on the safe-side, I watered the bluegrass on Sunday. On Monday, I watered the fescue growing on the slopes at the edge of my yard. This area is most impacted during the summer months.

This morning, I watered the side yard, where I noticed the drought stress in the fescue.

The bluegrass is looking really good. I no longer see much disease. It is growing faster than the fescue, even in this heat (90+). Yes, the bluegrass is hanging with the fescue just fine - perhaps even outperforming it.

While I was out of town, there was some high wind. A lot of furniture was blown off of the patio. Most damaging was a large crate that was blown into the midnight monostand. The crate must have been there for days. Bubble solution (like, the stuff used to 'blow bubbles') leaked out into the grass, so the area stayed wet. There is a lot of damage. At this point, all I can do is water it and hope it will recover.

My fescue is still producing some seedheads. The bluegrass is no longer producing seedheads.

I have an inordinate amount of grassy weeds coming up. I knew that I had some, but there is more than I imagined. They are in all zones of my yard at this point, so I'm sure that I've spread them with my mower. I'm still thinking through my options; maybe I should just live with them. No quackgrass. No Bermuda, except for one possible seedhead at the edge of my property.


----------



## pennstater2005

Geez you leave for a week and bam! No Bermuda. That's all you can ask for! I've got grassy weeds here and there and think I'm willing to live with some. Too much work constantly messing with those. At some point you just want to drink beer and watch the grass grow.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> No Bermuda.


Yes! The most important thing.


pennstater2005 said:


> At some point you just want to drink beer and watch the grass grow.


That sounds really good. And grill something, too. I'm going to try to keep this in mind.


----------



## social port

Mowed both stands of bluegrass this afternoon, in addition to the small area of TTTF that I'm maintaining at 2.5 this summer.
Heat wave is still on. Getting a temp break tomorrow.
Still no rain. - I think the last rainfall was 5/16, and that was a mere sprinkle. 
Been watering dutifully. Going to hit the bluegrass with water tomorrow. It is definitely due.

Update on the mower situation: I received my tachometer. Measurements have been taken. My push mower rated at 3680, which seems too high, but it is cutting much better.
My Gravely rated at 3540, and it should be at 3600. I don't know if a deficit this small would make that much of a difference in cut quality.

At this point I have increased the Gravely to 3600. I won't be able to evaluate the effect of increasing the RPM until next mow. And that may be a while from now.

Bluegrass is still looking good.


----------



## pennstater2005

I'll be interested to hear if that small difference in rpm's improves cut quality.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I'll be interested to hear if that small difference in rpm's improves cut quality.


It doesn't seem like it would have much effect,o does it? 
When it comes to the engineering and mechanics side of lawn care, I try not to make too many assumptions, given my lack of knowledge.

That being said, I'm hoping to be surprised...in a good way.


----------



## Budstl

This is from ferris website. Looks like you went through all these steps. The only one maybe the belt tension. I don't recall you mentioning that.


----------



## social port

thanks, @Budstl. I haven't looked at the belt tension. I did a little reading on it, and it looks like I will need some new tools (gauges) and a good bit more knowledge to look into this possibility more. I may just take it to the shop if need be.


----------



## social port

Did a tuna can test today. I measured a half inch for 2 hours from my MP Rotators. That's less than I remember. I'm going to do another test soon.

This evening I was able to get down a postM app. We had a quick dip in temps, so it was safe to apply. WBG plus Quiclorac + WBC CCO + AS + NIS.

I saw what I believe is wild violet. Quite a bit of growth. It can be hard to see when it is not budding. I also saw some bermuda. 2 small, isolated spots. That is reason to assume that more is on the way.


----------



## Green

Half an inch in two hours? It does sound low. Then again maybe your pressure varies over the day.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Half an inch in two hours? It does sound low. Then again maybe your pressure varies over the day.


Thanks for this feedback, Green. I did another test this morning. Half an inch in two hours -- maybe even a little shy of that. I think that means that I'm just going to let the fescue in the backyard to try to make it without irrigation. I don't think I can keep up, but we'll see. This was so much easier when I believed that impact sprinklers provided even coverage 

Purchased materials for my second PreM app this evening. Pretty happy about that. Going to try to get it down early in the morning. Showers are finally on the way.


----------



## Green

@social port, I was reading a great reference recently (will share; remind me tomorrow), and it mentioned that for TF, light occasional watering in Summer (deficit irrigation) during drought is better than no watering. Maybe you can incorporate that strategy as needed.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, I was reading a great reference recently (will share; remind me tomorrow), and it mentioned that for TF, light occasional watering in Summer (deficit irrigation) during drought is better than no watering. Maybe you can incorporate that strategy as needed.


Wow, Green, that is great information. And that sounds doable. I will be watering the bluegrass in the backyard. Flipping the sprinklers around a little bit and watering the non-irrigated fescue for 30 minutes would work in terms of time and effort.


----------



## social port

I was going to get my second round of preM down today, but I called an audible. The weather forecast suggests rain for the next 3-4 days. If my fescue gets all of that rain, I'll never be able to cut it in one pass.
So, I mowed today. It was higher than I realized. I cut the bluegrass again. It had already grown some, too, since last cut 3 days ago.

I love mowing bluegrass! I mean, I really, really do.

I got my Gravely up to 3610 RPM. I continued to monitor the RPMs while cutting. It seems that when it is cutting grass, RPMs go down as low as 3450. The cut quality today seemed even worse.
The only things left to possibly correct are the baffle adjust and the belt tension. And I'm not going to accomplish that without a lot of time. I think it is time to send it to the shop.


----------



## social port

Weather has been ideal for granular apps. After weeks of no rain, we got a half in or so yesterday. I wanted the soil to have some moisture in it. This morning, I applied my second round of dithiopyr. I went a little on the heavy side, mostly because the prills were so small. 
I also applied .7-.8 lbs/K to the whole yard. That is a little heavier than usual, but it should be fine. This afternoon, there were several showers at a lite rate. 
I couldn't have asked for better weather for watering the product. The weather is also perfect for disease. If I used fungicides, I'd be putting them down right away.


----------



## social port

Substantial rain and very humid weather over the last week. I let the grass dry off yesterday and then mowed today. It was unusually cool today (high of 80 or so), but the temp break is short-lived. The fescue and the bluegrass had quite a bit of growth since the last mow.

The moisture over the past week has led to significant damage from disease. It happened very quickly- mostly to the fescue, but some of the bluegrass got hit as well.

The backyard, with the lower HOC (3.5), is affected in more areas than the front yard, with the higher HOC (4.5)

Found some more goosegrass coming up in my midnight. I pulled as much of it as I could.

Clump of goosegrass 


Backyard with some of disease damage visible 


Front yard is affected, but not as much






Bluegrass mix


Midnight 


Stalk of Bermuda competing with terribly overgrown fescue. Not my yard, but next to my property line


----------



## pennstater2005

You gonna kill that Bermuda? Despite disease lawn still looks good.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> You gonna kill that Bermuda? Despite disease lawn still looks good.


Not right away. I'm looking at it. And it is looking at me. There's only one way this is going to end; I just don't know when exactly. I may need to re-up on my fluazifop.


----------



## Chris LI

Diseased areas seem to be minimal. I think you're doing all right, considering the weather conditions. Do you plan on using fungicides or are you riding/growing it out?


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> Diseased areas seem to be minimal. I think you're doing all right, considering the weather conditions. Do you plan on using fungicides or are you riding/growing it out?


Hey Chris, I have never used fungicides, either as a treatment or a preventative, so I am going to stick to that plan. The damage looks to be severe this time, so I am certainly tempted. While I was mowing yesterday, I was calculating cost-per-year increases if I began using a fungicide program.

I like the idea of having a relatively green lawn throughout the summer as well as minimizing loss of turf due to disease. However, I suppose I have never been convinced that they are worth the investment of time and money. I have no doubt at all that they can be effective, but they do not offer the promise of preventing disease in the same way, say, an application of N promises to increase top growth and add some sparkle to the color.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diseased areas seem to be minimal. I think you're doing all right, considering the weather conditions. Do you plan on using fungicides or are you riding/growing it out?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Chris, I have never used fungicides, either as a treatment or a preventative, so I am going to stick to that plan. The damage looks to be severe this time, so I am certainly tempted. While I was mowing yesterday, I was calculating cost-per-year increases if I began using a fungicide program.
> 
> I like the idea of having a relatively green lawn throughout the summer as well as minimizing loss of turf due to disease. However, I suppose I have never been convinced that they are worth the investment of time and money. I have no doubt at all that they can be effective, but they do not offer the promise of preventing disease in the same way, say, an application of N promises to increase top growth and add some sparkle to the color.
Click to expand...

I'm on the same page with you. I minimally used fungicides from around 2004-05, but none since then when my first was on his way. I've stayed up on current products for the most part at work. I bought a small bottle of Serenade a couple of years ago, but haven't really found a chance to use it.

I can't remember offhand, but some of the fertilization practices which help minimize fungal outbreaks vary based upon ther type of fungus. Basically, the occurrence/spreading of certain fungi can be reduced by fertilizing the turf to outgrow it, while it's best to withhold fertilizer when other types of fungi invade. I haven't committed them to memory, but it should be easy enough to look up.

If you can determine which fungus you have, you may be able to minimize spreading/damage by following the recommendations for that specific fungus. However, if you do the opposite, you can exacerbate the condition.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> Diseased areas seem to be minimal. I think you're doing all right, considering the weather conditions. Do you plan on using fungicides or are you riding/growing it out?
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Chris, I have never used fungicides, either as a treatment or a preventative, so I am going to stick to that plan. The damage looks to be severe this time, so I am certainly tempted. While I was mowing yesterday, I was calculating cost-per-year increases if I began using a fungicide program.
> 
> I like the idea of having a relatively green lawn throughout the summer as well as minimizing loss of turf due to disease. However, I suppose I have never been convinced that they are worth the investment of time and money. I have no doubt at all that they can be effective, but they do not offer the promise of preventing disease in the same way, say, an application of N promises to increase top growth and add some sparkle to the color.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm on the same page with you. I minimally used fungicides from around 2004-05, but none since then when my first was on his way. I've stayed up on current products for the most part at work. I bought a small bottle of Serenade a couple of years ago, but haven't really found a chance to use it.
> 
> I can't remember offhand, but some of the fertilization practices which help minimize fungal outbreaks vary based upon ther type of fungus. Basically, the occurrence/spreading of certain fungi can be reduced by fertilizing the turf to outgrow it, while it's best to withhold fertilizer when other types of fungi invade. I haven't committed them to memory, but it should be easy enough to look up.
> 
> If you can determine which fungus you have, you may be able to minimize spreading/damage by following the recommendations for that specific fungus. However, if you do the opposite, you can exacerbate the condition.
Click to expand...

That is a really good point and, to be honest, I would love to give the fescue a nice shot of N right now. There are times when it just looks like it could use some, even though the weather conditions are not optimal for the application. It almost makes me want to experiment a little. 
As for treating diseases with N, I may remember incorrectly, but I believe that it is dollar spot that may be improved with N. However, brown patch intensifies if it receives nitrogen. I'm not sure how other diseases respond.

I don't know which one I have, but those are the likely culprits, and I lean towards dollar spot. Tgreen had a post recently on some of the finer points of diagnosis, so I may review that.

Hmmm...yes, this is sounding good to me. I'll make a diagnosis and then treat half of the backyard if appropriate. My only concern is that, in treating dollar spot, I end up making the turf more susceptible to brown patch.


----------



## Chris LI

Maybe a very light shot of foliar N, on a cooler day. Weather channel showed a cold front coming through TN and north GA today. Strike while the iron is hot and the weather is cool! Sorry for the bad pun.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> Maybe a very light shot of foliar N, on a cooler day. Weather channel showed a cold front coming through TN and north GA today. Strike while the iron is hot and the weather is cool! Sorry for the bad pun.


I like bad puns. They always sound good to me.

There has been a cool stretch of weather. Very odd. As folks say around here, "it's downright comfortable" outside.

I took some photos of the suspected disease. As I looked over the areas, I'm less sure on the ID. Dollar spot and white patch are my best guesses. It also occurred to me that this could simply be damage from my mower. 
All pictures are of my fescue, except for Pictures 5 and 7, which are midnight shots. If anyone has a strong opinion on the Id, I'm all ears. I'm cross-posting in the disease Id thread. 
1

2

3

4

5

6

7


----------



## Chris LI

I'm not an expert on disease ID, but know that brown patch is the primary disease which affects TTTF in hot weather. I think GLS can attack TTTF, too (maybe $ spot too). Those are great photos; cutaways and close ups. The cutaway shows a large area which gets me thinking that it's brown patch, but the close ups show the lesion pattern which is a great indicator of the type of disease. However, without looking up photos, I don't know which disease is at work, but I'm sure someone on TLF will know. If I have a chance tomorrow, I'll start looking around to try to help with the ID.


----------



## Green

Chris,

Yeah, every species has one or a few main diseases. The thing about mixed stands is that they're more resistant to any one thing as a whole, but you do end up with all the species being affected by many of the diseases they normally wouldn't be, even slightly...like red thread affecting TTTF that's mixed with FF, though you have to hunt to find it. Or brown patch getting the KBG. Right now, red thread and dollar spot are the main things I'm dealing with, a touch of brown patch, and an unknown disease in the low input area. Maybe it's rust starting up. Everyone around here has red thread right now, and many have dollar spot.

Both my diseases supposedly get better with N, so we'll see. I'm due for/in the process of dropping N anyway.

SP: Good luck. Those look just like the gray leaf spot tgreen posted.


----------



## social port

@Chris LI and @Green, thanks for the feedback, guys. I had GLS on my list of possibilities, but I was less impressed with it because the bluegrass is affected, and bluegrass is not affected by GLS. Also, dieback at the top of the leaf is not consistently present in the affected areas. On some blades, only the middle portion of the leaf is affected.

However, this morning I am inclined to see GLS as a better match, especially with the pattern of spots on the blade in pic 3.


----------



## Green

There are other leaf spot diseases, too, but I'm not sure which affect KBG.

Did you see these yet?

http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2016/09/lawn-diseases-2016.html?m=1

https://sportsturfonline.com/2018/01/09/gray-leaf-spot-on-turfgrass/


----------



## social port

Green said:


> There are other leaf spot diseases, too, but I'm not sure which affect KBG.
> 
> Did you see these yet?
> 
> http://purdueturftips.blogspot.com/2016/09/lawn-diseases-2016.html?m=1
> 
> https://sportsturfonline.com/2018/01/09/gray-leaf-spot-on-turfgrass/


Thanks for those references, Green. I had not seen those. I especially liked the Purdue blogspot. 
The lesions on the blades are not consistent with other kinds of leaf spot, AFAIK. That is why I was so compelled by GLS as a possible diagnosis this morning. In the disease ID thread, tgreen said that he thought that it was not GLS, but brown patch instead.

That was interesting, because the damage doesn't quite look like what I've seen from brown patch.

I suppose the major point here is that this disease is not dollar spot. Therefore, a spritz of N is not advisable. I'm not going to use a fungicide either. Let's see where this ends up in October.


----------



## Budstl

Pics of your midnight is probably dollar spot. Upon reading on the interwebs ds can cause the grass to bleach. Also looks like 1 or 2 blades have that hour glass spot to it. I had this issue with mine last year.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Pics of your midnight is probably dollar spot. Upon reading on the interwebs ds can cause the grass to bleach. Also looks like 1 or 2 blades have that hour glass spot to it. I had this issue with mine last year.


Oh...so maybe I will bring out that N after all. I have a little AMS I could spray. I'll investigate the bluegrass more tomorrow.


----------



## social port

I checked out the bluegrass this morning, and I agree that dollar spot makes sense, especially if it can bleach (I didn't know that). Temps are going to range from 70-90 over the next several days, and it could be wet. I think I am going to pass on the N right now. I will bet on the bluegrass resiliency, especially since it has already pulled through some disease.

Applied RGS and Air-8 to the backyard (TTTF and KBG) this morning and watered it in. Max rates for the Air-8; low (3 oz) rate for RGS.

Anticipating draining a hot tub in the backyard tomorrow morning. Trying to keep the grass from being terribly drenched.

Also mowed side and front yard today.

Update on MOWER: first, big thanks ! to everyone for helping me to think through possible causes for my grass blades tearing.

I sent the mower into the shop this week. I spoke with the mechanic and now have the mower back.
Here is the main finding.
Not an issue with belt tension. 
Not an issue with the baffle. There is nothing to adjust on my mower (stamped deck).
All tires are fine
Deck looks great
Blades look great
Everything in top form except...
RPMs. They said RPMs were a little low, so they increased it. I told them that I had already adjusted RPMs and the problem remained, but they said that several things have to be adjusted on my machine after an RPM adjustment. Apparently, the adjustment is difficult to make and should be done only at the shop. 
So...
I mowed with it today. He said that he increased RPM to 3650, but I was reading 3590 without the blades engaged. After cutting today, the problem remains.



It doesn't look terrible from a distance, but the blades shouldn't look like that, right? Am I making too much of this?



Here is the thing. I used my pushmower to mow the front


Again, it doesn't look terrible from a distance, but if you inspect, you can still see some tearing, albeit not nearly as much as with the Gravely.

So then it occurs to me: is it possible that my lawn is too thick to be mowed cleanly? That possibility is more pleasing than having two mowers that can't get the job done. Of course, it may be fescue itself. Chris LI mentioned that it is difficult to get his fescue cleanly cut.


----------



## g-man

Can you measure the blade rpm while mowing? not the motor rpm, but the blades?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Can you measure the blade rpm while mowing? not the motor rpm, but the blades?


Hey g-man, I'm using a tachometer to measure RPM. I've got it wrapped around the tubing of the spark plug. That is measuring motor RPM, correct?
I don't know how to measure blade RPM directly, but is it legitimate to provide an estimate based on blade length and motor RPM?
If so,
then
14.875 is my blade length
Assuming motor RPM of 3540 (which is the most common RPM I observe while mowing)
Then blade RPM is about 13, 770

[[[14.875 blade converted to 1.23958333.........3.14X1.23958333=approx. 3.89............3.89X3540=13, 770]]]

I used a formula provided at lawnsite


----------



## g-man

That calculation is for blade tip speed in ft per minute. 13k is slow in my opinion. I think the max government allowed speed (mower police?) Is 19k.

This might explain your problem.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> That calculation is for blade tip speed in ft per minute. 13k is slow in my opinion. I think the max government allowed speed (mower police?) Is 19k.
> 
> This might explain your problem.


Do you know how blade speed is usually increased?


----------



## g-man

Change the rpm, but it seems like you are maxed or change the balde to be longer or change the mower.


----------



## g-man

I just went online. The ZT X says it has a blade tip speed of 17k. There could be a gear increasing pulley that spins the blades faster than the motor rpm.

edit: I found the ZT 42. It is also 17k


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Change the rpm, but it seems like you are maxed or change the balde to be longer or change the mower.


I've already been looking at a JD zero turn or a Ferris stand-on or pushmower.

But before I go that route...
I know that I can't use a longer blade because longer blades would hit one another ( I have 3, and it's a tight fit).

I can ask the shop to adjust RPM again. They adjusted to 3650, but I measured 3590. Something isn't adding up there. The shop said they would bring it in again at no charge if the mower wasn't satisfactory.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> I just went online. The ZT X says it has a blade tip speed of 17k. There could be a gear increasing pulley that spins the blades faster than the motor rpm.
> 
> edit: I found the ZT 42. It is also 17k


I am at a loss to find it. I've played around with a lot of the components on that mower, but I'm really not grounded in my understanding of how everything works. I'll mention it to the mechanic. The difference between 17,000 and 13,000 sounds significant to me.

One other thing to note here that I forgot to mention: The problem could not be replicated by the mechanic at the shop. They actually tried to see what the problem was by mowing around their property. They said it cut very well. 
That being said, I doubt they were cut a thick stand of TTTF. Hmm...now that I think about, I hope they weren't cutting bermuda, dallisgrass, quack etc :lol:


----------



## g-man

Show them pictures of your lawn. It might be that your thicker lawn is also slowing down the motor. Do you hear the motor change when going over concrete than when mowing?

The calculation you did for 13k assumes the motor rpm is the same as the rpm of the blades. The motor could go thru a transmission/gear case that changes the rpm of the blades.

Also, if you mow at a lower moving speed, do you notice a difference?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Show them pictures of your lawn. It might be that your thicker lawn is also slowing down the motor. Do you hear the motor change when going over concrete than when mowing?
> 
> The calculation you did for 13k assumes the motor rpm is the same as the rpm of the blades. The motor could go thru a transmission/gear case that changes the rpm of the blades.
> 
> Also, if you mow at a lower moving speed, do you notice a difference?


I do not notice a difference in the motor between concrete and the lawn.

I've tried running fast passes. I've tried running slow passes. Neither one seems to reliably change the cut quality. I need to mow the backyard tomorrow. I'll test again to be absolutely certain.

As for the motor going through the transmission to change rpm of the blades, I don't know. I believe that the manual advises against running the blades at low throttle, so I would assume yes, but that is a guess.


----------



## Budstl

What size engine do you have? Also what kind of blades are you using? I hope you are able to get this resolved sp, otherwise i look forward to you joining team ferris.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> What size engine do you have? Also what kind of blades are you using? I hope you are able to get this resolved sp, otherwise i look forward to you joining team ferris.


22hp, 725cc, Kohler engine.
I'm using high-lift blades. They look like good blades to me. Still, I've wanted to try gator blades (or really, anything else), but I haven't been able to find anything for my mower.

No kidding on team Ferris. For the sake of competition, I am looking at the JD zero turn line as well, but I have two Ferris models picked out: FW25 walk-beind and srs z1 stand-on. I know the zero turn models would be good, but if I get the stand-on or walk-behind, I bet I could mow the slopes in my yard with either model. That would mean that I could mow the whole yard without changing mowers. It would be more efficient and look better, even if it ended up requiring more grunt work from me. I'm good with that.

But one other thing. I'm pretty sure that as I type this, g-man is busy working on building a reel mower for me. One that is 42 in, with HOC range from 1.5 to 6.0, _and_ it has self-sharpening blades. Prolly get a TLF discount or something. If he can do that, then that option will be hard to beat. The SP-TTTF-KBG-N-TN TLF model.


----------



## iowa jim

He made me one but it cost $50,000.


----------



## social port

iowa jim said:


> He made me one but it cost $50,000.


Wanna sell it? I'd have room for two in my garage if I took out my hot water heater.


----------



## iowa jim

social port said:


> iowa jim said:
> 
> 
> 
> He made me one but it cost $50,000.
> 
> 
> 
> Wanna sell it? I'd have room for two in my garage if I took out my hot water heater.
Click to expand...

No, its worth every penny.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Show them pictures of your lawn. It might be that your thicker lawn is also slowing down the motor. Do you hear the motor change when going over concrete than when mowing?
> 
> The calculation you did for 13k assumes the motor rpm is the same as the rpm of the blades. The motor could go thru a transmission/gear case that changes the rpm of the blades.
> 
> Also, if you mow at a lower moving speed, do you notice a difference?


Ok, g-man. I mowed at a very fast pace and a very slow one.

Here is very fast







Here is very slow







I'm not terribly impressed with a difference, but you may see something I don't.


----------



## social port

Mowed the backyard today. 
Here is the three-way KBG at 2.5


Here is the midnight at 2.5



Here is TTTF at 2.5


----------



## Green

You mowed the TTTF at 2.5 in?!


----------



## social port

Green said:


> You mowed the TTTF at 2.5 in?!


Yes, I've been mowing a small portion of the TTTF at 2.5. Just 2-3 strips.
Earlier this year, I noticed that the transition from the KBG (mowed at 2.5) to the TTTF (mowed at 4.5) was very abrupt. So I began mowing 2-3 strips of the fescue at 2.5. Then 1 pass at 3. Then, the rest of the TTTF at 3.5. Turf looks much smoother now overall.

And it is not only for aesthetics. I'm curious to see how the TTTF does at 2.5 during the summer.


----------



## Budstl

That midnight is looking good.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> That midnight is looking good.


Yes sir. Thanks, Budstl. I am enjoying it, and that Midnight is a pleasure to mow. I'm going to be watching for a color response after the apps of Air-8 and RGS.


----------



## Green

Makes sense. Let's keep seeing how that goes.


----------



## samjonester

Just shooting from the hip here on your cut quality...

I've noticed in my reno that the full sun sections will tear a little if I mow at mid-day especially if the grass hasn't gotten any water for a few days. It's not a problem in the shadier section of my yard or if it has just rained. It was a bit worse when I experimented with mulching instead of bagging, too. The KBG in the mix always had a good cut.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Makes sense. Let's keep seeing how that goes.


 :thumbup: With only two passes mowed at 2.5, I don't think it provides a great comparison for the fescue mowed at 3.5. But it does provide something to think about.


----------



## social port

samjonester said:


> Just shooting from the hip here on your cut quality...
> 
> I've noticed in my reno that the full sun sections will tear a little if I mow at mid-day especially if the grass hasn't gotten any water for a few days. It's not a problem in the shadier section of my yard or if it has just rained. It was a bit worse when I experimented with mulching instead of bagging, too. The KBG in the mix always had a good cut.


Sam, I think that when the usual suspects haven't committed the crime, shooting from the hip is necessary. I like it. And I've had similar thoughts to what you are saying here.

In fact, a couple of weeks ago, I was thinking that stronger turf (well nourished, irrigated, disease free, flourishing)might be more difficult to cut -- perhaps nearly the opposite of what you are suggesting.

But then, during the last several mows, I was noticing a few really green areas where it looked like the cut was much better than other places. That would seem to support what you are saying (which is, I believe): The better nourished and irrigated the turf, the better the cut.

That seems like a reasonable suggestion, but off the top of my head, I don't know enough about plant physiology etc to evaluate how plausible it is. That is something I may look into.

All zones of my fescue get equal nutrition and supplementation. We've also had a lot of rain during the last 10 days in Tenn. If there is some relationship between ease of cut amount of water (or some similar factor), then that means what I'm doing with my fescue isn't sufficient.

By the way, like you, I've noticed that my bluegrass cuts far more cleanly than my fescue.


----------



## samjonester

I agree with it being more problematic in thick healthy turf. I don't have the issue in my thiner, old, no-mix side yard. I don't think it's necessarily a difference between irrigated and non-irrigated turf. What I've seen is more of a relationship to how recently it's seen water. If it rained, or I ran the sprinklers Monday morning and cut the lawn Monday evening, then I get a clean cut. If it rained Monday morning and I cut Thursday over lunch when it's 87 degrees and sunny, then I get some tearing in the full sun areas of the lawn. It's almost like the fescue has "hardened", and with mower already working hard in thick turf, I see the situation. That said, my mower is _not_ as powerful as yours and bogs down a bit when I mulch.


----------



## social port

samjonester said:


> I don't think it's necessarily a difference between irrigated and non-irrigated turf. What I've seen is more of a relationship to how recently it's seen water.


Gotcha. I haven't noticed a relationship there.


----------



## Green

Similar to what Sam notices, I wonder if less hydrated grass doesn't cut as well (opposite of what you might guess if turf health was the factor). I'm thinking dehydration might toughen it, the way a harder, less juicy vegetable or fruit often takes more effort to cut with a knife and has more fibrous stuff. Think lignin content...


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Similar to what Sam notices, I wonder if less hydrated grass doesn't cut as well (opposite of what you might guess if turf health was the factor). I'm thinking dehydration might toughen it, the way a harder, less juicy vegetable or fruit often takes more effort to cut with a knife and has more fibrous stuff. Think lignin content...


Yes, that seems reasonable to me. 
As I thought about it over the last several months, I've considered
1. Unhealthy turf (not the correct term, but what I have in mind is under-irrigated, under-fertilized, perhaps disease pressure, poor soil) leads to poor cut quality
2. Healthy turf (well irrigated, adequate nutrition, ideal soil) leads to poor cut quality
I realize that those are opposing claims.

#1 seems more plausible to me, but I want to be open to #2 as well. 
Since I don't water my fescue until it is absolutely necessary, it is possible that it becomes hardened, thereby making it more difficult to cut. However, if that were the cause of poor cut quality, then cut quality should improve after significant rainfall. But that isn't what happens.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1. The coarseness of the leaf blade with all the striations (have you ever been 'paper cut' by TTTF [or K-31]? I have).
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if irrigation practices might also play a role here. The idea would be that fescue is either easier or harder to cut based on the amount of water the plant has been exposed to (I'm just thinking out loud on this one).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you may be into something with this. I recall reading somewhere about TTTF having developed coarser textured blades over time if the turf stand becomes stressed and thinned. I recall seeing some of this in my yard, but it could have just been the TTTF maturing in its second or third year. I don't have evidence to back this up.
Click to expand...

Just posting this conversation again for its relevance.

Also, I learned this morning that, in PRG, improving some of its characteristics (say, rust resistance) may impact cut quality :shock:  
(cool, smilies can be used as a link)


----------



## social port

Couple of things.
Mowed the entire lawn today. It was not a charity mow. It was overgrown. Growth has not slowed nearly as much as I was anticipating.
I also edged and trimmed today. I haven't been diligent with my edging schedule this year.
More goosegrass is popping up in the midnight.
I need to apply air-8 and RGS to the side and front yard when temps allow. I'm already for more triclopyr, temps permitting .

Got my mower back from the shop again. @g-man , apparently the blade RPM is fully dependent on the motor RPM on this mower. There is no way to adjust the blade speed except by increasing motor RPM.

The shop still found no problem. They did make a pitch adjustment (which I mentioned weeks ago; I don't know why they downplayed the potential relevance of that intervention). The mower felt much better, and the cut was substantially improved, but still lacking. At this point, they said that there is nothing else they can do, and decline to troubleshoot further. I'm targeting next spring for a new mower. 
Here are a few shots of the improved cut.






Here is my front yard 


Here is TTTF cut at 2.5


Here is the KBG mix


And the midnight


I'm mowing the bluegrass with my pushmower so that I don't create health risks from the tearing caused by the zero turn.


----------



## pennstater2005

That tearing is something else. It's just such a thick bladed grass it does make you wonder if that's part of it.


----------



## g-man

In the first image, most of those blade look cleanly cut.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That tearing is something else. It's just such a thick bladed grass it does make you wonder if that's part of it.


Yes, I've been thinking about that as well, especially factors that lead to a poor cut quality. I've thought about asking Prof Pete if he encounters this type of problem. I believe that they use Wright mowers for their yards, but I would think that a percentage of his clients are mowing their own lawns -- and using non-commercial mowers.


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> In the first image, most of those blade look cleanly cut.


Cut quality definitely improved after the pitch adjustment. Can you still see some tearing?
I thought that one more minor adjustment would make the cut perfect, but apparently the mower cannot be adjusted any more than it already is.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That tearing is something else. It's just such a thick bladed grass it does make you wonder if that's part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I've been thinking about that as well, especially factors that lead to a poor cut quality. I've thought about asking Prof Pete if he encounters this type of problem. I believe that they use Wright mowers for their yards, but I would think that a percentage of his clients are mowing their own lawns -- and using non-commercial mowers.
Click to expand...

Hey, it would only be worse with KY-31, or coarse warm season stuff like St. Augustine or Bahia!


----------



## Togo

@social port the pitch adjustment seems to have helped because as @g-man man pointed out, blades do seem cleanly cut even if some are tearing. My next swing I plan to sharpen my blades, maybe I'll take some pictures of the front and we can compare. My front is a mix of KBG, TTTF, Fine, PRG, And what I suspect to be huge sections of well established Triv...

I know I see some tearing myself but just always chalked it up to a result of the mulch system, which I took off last weekend. I did notice a cleaner cut without it so it would be interesting to see how it looks compared to what you're seeing with your setup.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Hey, it would only be worse with KY-31, or coarse warm season stuff like St. Augustine or Bahia!


When the advantages and disadvantages of KBG and TTTF are analyzed, mowing quality isn't usually considered. Maybe it should be. Or maybe it is just my mower.

@Togo If you want to snap a couple of pics after your next mow, that would be cool. It would be nice to compare.


----------



## social port

Mowed, edged, trimmed.

TTTF and KBG cut at 2.5 still holding strong as we approach July.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> TTTF and KBG cut at 2.5 still holding strong as we approach July.


Very nice results. If it starts to stress, are you going to go up higher or continue the experiment a bit longer?

By the way, here a link to that great reference that includes info on how TTTF versus KBG respond to Summer heat and frequency and depth of watering: http://vaturf.org/publications/CTP_manual.pdf
...And a whole lot more!


----------



## Budstl

Nice! Laying down some stripes.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> TTTF and KBG cut at 2.5 still holding strong as we approach July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice results. If it starts to stress, are you going to go up higher or continue the experiment a bit longer?
> 
> By the way, here a link to that great reference that includes info on how TTTF versus KBG respond to Summer heat and frequency and depth of watering: http://vaturf.org/publications/CTP_manual.pdf
> ...And a whole lot more!
Click to expand...

Good grief, that is a great publication that you linked! I'm going to be reading on that.

It's funny. On pp. 1-21 and 1-22, the annua seedhead looks like pratensis, and the pratensis seedhead looks like annua to me. Apparently, I still need to get the hang of this bluegrass world.

You ask a great question, and I haven't given it much thought until now. If it gets really bad, I will bring the fescue up to 3.5, but I really want to see how well it recovers if left at 2.5. 
I'm holding strong on the bluegrass, no matter what. I like it at 2.5, and if I can make it through the summer without changing HOC, then I will have one less uncertainty to ponder for next summer.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Nice! Laying down some stripes.


Man, I haven't used my DIY striper in weeks. That's just the bluegrass doing that for me. It stripes much better than the fescue. Extra points for the bluegrass on that one.

Soon I'm going to see what happens when I do put the 'striping kit' on my mower.


----------



## Togo

@social port those pictures look great. It's really striping quiet well and even more shocking if you're saying you didn't even use the striper.


----------



## social port

Togo said:


> @social port those pictures look great. It's really striping quiet well and even more shocking if you're saying you didn't even use the striper.


Thanks, Togo. I'm almost to the point where I am admitting that I would be better off buying a striper than fooling around with DIY efforts. After I get my mower situation settled (probably going to get a new one next spring), I will likely make that investment -- unless I get a Ferris.


----------



## pennstater2005

Bluegrass does seem to stripe decently even when just mowing. Can you still mow backwards easily with a striper attached?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Bluegrass does seem to stripe decently even when just mowing. Can you still mow backwards easily with a striper attached?


From what I understand, it depends on the striper. I believe that the checkmates, for example, use wheels that roll with your mower, so backing up with that roller is really no different from backing up without a striper. But this is what I've read/heard. I've never used a proper striper.

With my DIY stripers, I have to be careful. I use a heavy bar attached via zip ties ( :lol: ). It is usually not a problem with my pushmower because the back flap tends to keep the bar in place. It is a nightmare on the Gravely because the bar is really heavy and there is nothing to keep it in place when going backwards. Actually, on the Gravely, it gets diciest when making sharp turns. Because of this, I typically don't even bother trying attach the bar to the Gravely.

I was reading in that PDF that Green linked, and it mentioned that PRG stripes better than any of the cool season grasses :shock: 
I always assumed that fescue was best for striping.

[does a spell check for 'striping;' OK, Good]


----------



## Togo

pennstater2005 said:


> Bluegrass does seem to stripe decently even when just mowing. Can you still mow backwards easily with a striper attached?


Exactly what SP said, with the checkmate, no not at all. I've had zero problems backing up or turning with it. I even roll my mower out backwards down a ramp out of my shed.



social port said:


> [does a spell check for 'striping;' OK, Good]


Lmao I did that earlier


----------



## ksturfguy

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> TTTF and KBG cut at 2.5 still holding strong as we approach July.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very nice results. If it starts to stress, are you going to go up higher or continue the experiment a bit longer?
> 
> By the way, here a link to that great reference that includes info on how TTTF versus KBG respond to Summer heat and frequency and depth of watering: http://vaturf.org/publications/CTP_manual.pdf
> ...And a whole lot more!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Good grief, that is a great publication that you linked! I'm going to be reading on that.
> 
> It's funny. On pp. 1-21 and 1-22, the annua seedhead looks like pratensis, and the pratensis seedhead looks like annua to me. Apparently, I still need to get the hang of this bluegrass world.
> 
> You ask a great question, and I haven't given it much thought until now. If it gets really bad, I will bring the fescue up to 3.5, but I really want to see how well it recovers if left at 2.5.
> I'm holding strong on the bluegrass, no matter what. I like it at 2.5, and if I can make it through the summer without changing HOC, then I will have one less uncertainty to ponder for next summer.
Click to expand...

Im in same boat as you. Got 3 plots of TTTF, KBG, and a mix and keeping all three mowed at 2.5" all summer. Will lower to 2 in fall. Curious how they handle the heat. This week we starting to look dryer with temps in 90s everyday so will be the first real test. My actual yard of TTTF im keeping at 4".


----------



## social port

ksturfguy said:


> Im in same boat as you. Got 3 plots of TTTF, KBG, and a mix and keeping all three mowed at 2.5" all summer. Will lower to 2 in fall. Curious how they handle the heat. This week we starting to look dryer with temps in 90s everyday so will be the first real test. My actual yard of TTTF im keeping at 4".


You also run a Gravely over 20k! :lol: Cheers. 
My non-experimental TTTF (the majority of my lawn) is cut at 4.5.

It is hard to do much reading on new TTTF cultivars without hearing about their tolerance for low mowing. So far, I can't say that my higher cut fescue looks better than my lower cut fescue. But as you say, the real test is just around the corner.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I was reading in that PDF that Green linked, and it mentioned that PRG stripes better than any of the cool season grasses :shock:
> I always assumed that fescue was best for striping.


That reminded me: supposedly there's a turf researcher who has been working on turf hybrids of PR and TF for over a decade, and claims they're drought tolerant in the US Southwest. Hard to believe they could be better than TTTF, but maybe we'll hear about it one day. It's called Rye-Fescue or Festulolium. Right now, they have pasture types.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> It's called Rye-Fescue or Festulolium


Hmm...I wonder how well it stripes :lol: 
I wish that we did have information on what to expect in the next 5 years for new hybrids as well as improvements to existing cultivars. For example, I believe that the new cochise is on the way. What has changed from cochise iv to v? How robust are the differences? And at what point were researchers satisfied with the end product (if it even works that way)?


----------



## Green

I heard that too, maybe from you, though?

I saw Cochise III in a mix in my local store. Link: 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4267&hilit=Cochise&start=160#p149224

Btw, I bet the one marked "Cochise" is actually III.

I think there may be a new Bullseye, too, called Bullseye LTZ. I'll have to ask the guys at Hogan if they've heard that one and know anything about it.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I heard that too, maybe from you, though?


Probably. I think I heard it from Hogan's last year.
I might look at that new Bullseye if it is available. I almost used the old Bullseye in my mix for the reno.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I might look at that new Bullseye if it is available. I almost used the old Bullseye in my mix for the reno.


I'm hoping it's real. I'm on my last few lbs of Bullseye. But I saw it in the 2018 NTEP data, along with the regular Bullseye as well, so there must be something to it.

Posted the Cochise link in the previous thread.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I saw Cochise III in a mix in my local store


Wow, I don't remember ever seeing III. That bag must be pretty old.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> I saw Cochise III in a mix in my local store
> 
> 
> 
> Wow, I don't remember ever seeing III. That bag must be pretty old.
Click to expand...

No, it's apparently current seed, grown in the last couple of years. Sometimes they grow the last few versions of these grasses. Test date 1/19.

Edit: unless it was another tagging error like "Cochise" (I) in that photo.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> No, it's apparently current seed, grown in the last couple of years. Sometimes they grow the last few versions of these grasses. Test date 1/19.


That's pretty cool. Imagine a cochise iii, cochise iv, and cochise v stand.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, it's apparently current seed, grown in the last couple of years. Sometimes they grow the last few versions of these grasses. Test date 1/19.
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty cool. Imagine a cochise iii, cochise iv, and cochise v stand.
Click to expand...

Mixed or separate?

Pretty sure Palmer III, IV, and V PR are all available still. I was trying to find Palmer III because it has a wider blade and isn't as dark green, but no one had it this Spring.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Mixed or separate?


Mixed. 
I would have to change my avatar, though, from ls1200 to cochise.


----------



## social port

Feels like summer has kicked into another gear...the second phase. Day-after-day of temps in the 90s. Dry, but very humid. 
I've been watering my slopes in my front yard to help with heat and drought stress.
Yesterday, I applied air-8 and RGS to my side yard. (8oz/k and 4oz/k). Also applied baby shampoo (3oz/k) to the grass that borders the street.

Mowed and trimmed today. Most of the lawn was overgrown a little.

I've been working on a new design for a roller for my Gravely. I finished a working model yesterday, but it didn't deliver well enough on the stripes.

The bluegrass is looking like it is ready for some water. I plan to irrigate tomorrow morning.

Disease is definitely active in the fescue.

3-way bluegrass


Midnight


----------



## social port

I have two different kinds of Bermuda coming up. One I recognize. It has been the kind I've been killing in past years. The other is much smaller and seems more delicate. It almost doesn't look like bermuda with its size. I found some of it last year, but only a handful. This year, I've got a healthy patch. Here are the two varieties 




I hit these two patches, and a third, with soul stealer CCO this evening. Also got the bluegrass watered this morning. It is already looking better this evening.


----------



## ksturfguy

I'm sure it's somewhere in the 45 pages but what varieties of KBG do you have in your 3 way blend? Both your KBG spots look good!


----------



## social port

ksturfguy said:


> I'm sure it's somewhere in the 45 pages but what varieties of KBG do you have in your 3 way blend? Both your KBG spots look good!


Nuglade, Mazama, and Award. Compared to the Midnight, the mix was slightly faster in germinating and much faster in getting beyond the pout. The mix seemed to be up-and-running long before the midnight. The mix has been somewhat more prone to disease than the midnight, but it has recovered just fine. I like both stands very much.


----------



## Green

@social port, I have a question about herbicides and hot weather. I am waiting (way too long...already been about 3 weeks) to spray more Triclopyr amine solution until it's not in the upper 80s/low 90s for a few days, because the grass is stressed and even the amine can volatilize if used when it goes above 85 or so. Thankfully, the violets and stuff are not looking too good in the heat and still show damage from the first app, so I should be good waiting this long for the second app.

But since you deal with generally more sustained heat there in TN than I do here, I was wondering, what's your strategy for weed killing this time of year? Waiting for wind to die down is enough of an issue...but I would imagine that you're not going to see daytime temps below the high 80s very often, now (though I still will, from time-to-time).

Do you just wait until evening?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, I have a question about herbicides and hot weather. I am waiting (way too long...already been about 3 weeks) to spray more Triclopyr amine solution until it's not in the upper 80s/low 90s for a few days, because the grass is stressed and even the amine can volatilize if used when it goes above 85 or so. Thankfully, the violets and stuff are not looking too good in the heat and still show damage from the first app, so I should be good waiting this long for the second app.
> 
> But since you deal with generally more sustained heat there in TN than I do here, I was wondering, what's your strategy for weed killing this time of year? Waiting for wind to die down is enough of an issue...but I would imagine that you're not going to see daytime temps below the high 80s very often, now (though I still will, from time-to-time).
> 
> Do you just wait until evening?


I hand-pull if convenient and if pulling won't encourage the weed to spread. I will use an herbicide in high temperatures if I am worried about the weed spreading, particularly later in the summer when I remind myself that, if I do any damage, I can seed in a couple of months. The rationale is that it would be better to have a little permanent damage now rather than a large-scale infestation two months down the road. But really, as much as possible, I try to just let live in the summer--as long as the weed isn't threatening to take over my lawn. One other thing with my situation here (and may be less relevant for you; I'm not sure) is that it is during summer that we typically see monstrous grassy weeds like dallisgrass showing themselves. At that point, glyphosate is just a reasonable response, at least for me.

I'm not certain about getting around temp restrictions by waiting until the evening. I believe that I remember an exchange between you and Greendoc on that topic, but I can't remember what the verdict was. It is not something that I typically do. I do remember trying to get around temp restrictions with fluazifop a couple of years ago. I tried spraying at dusk. I ended up smoking my fescue, but it's not a great example because it is really easy to err with fluazifop.


----------



## Green

@social port, thanks for the summary. I don't remember that exact topic with Greendoc, but I can always look it up. My plan is to wait until next week when it's in the low to mid 80s, and then spot spray in the evening when it's even cooler (to reduce spray vapor diffusing where it shouldn't), and possibly water the next day to mitigate stress. After that, no more Triclopyr for a while, most likely.

We don't tend to have big problems here with explosive Summer grassy weed infestations in well-maintained, established stands in which a proper pre-M is used. But Crabgrass is a huge problem in poorly-maintained lawns. In some cases though, it actually serves as green cover for the Summer when the desired grass is brown, like in school yards...almost a low-tech version of Bluemuda. I also keep seeing Stiltgrass appearing in the most random places, like roadway cracks. It's bad stuff, so I pull it out and get rid of it. I sometimes fight Nimblewill in the Summer, but am not sure yet if there's any this year.

I sprayed the entire lawn with Gallery in the Spring to help prevent warm-season broadleaf weeds, and had my neighbor do their borders and edges as well. I think it was well-worth it, but August will be the real test.


----------



## social port

Yeah, I've been reading about the stiltgrass in your journal. That's not the kind of weed you want showing up for a visit. I was actually kind of surprised to hear about it; it seems like it came out of nowhere.

I've been thinking that I may not need to do much reseeding this fall. If so, I've been thinking about using Gallery this fall to help reduce the broadleaf weeds. I'm not yet sure if the timing of that app makes sense or not.


----------



## Green

@social port, yeah, I might use Gallery again in the Fall. It was recommended by Greendoc. Good stuff. So far, pretty much zero broadleaf weeds in the front lawn, other than maple trees in my redo areas. Normally sometime between now and August, there are a few Spurge and Purslane plants each week near the road or sidewalk. So far, only in the mulch areas. I refused to spray Gallery there due to desired flowering plant seeds. Ironic, since mulch beds are where it's normally used/marketed for. Cool season weeds are finally ending.

I'd say go for it. Plus it's safe for grass seed. How cool is that?

And yeah, Stiltgrass seems to come from nowhere. Trying to get rid of all the seeds in the neighborhood before it becomes an issue. Had some in the back last year, too. Really need to get Dimension down soon there at the edge.

Ever seen Stiltgrass in person? Doesn't even look like grass.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port, yeah, I might use Gallery again in the Fall. It was recommended by Greendoc. Good stuff. So far, pretty much zero broadleaf weeds in the front lawn, other than maple trees in my redo areas. Normally sometime between now and August, there are a few Spurge and Purslane plants each week near the road or sidewalk. So far, only in the mulch areas. I refused to spray Gallery there due to desired flowering plant seeds. Ironic, since mulch beds are where it's normally used/marketed for. Cool season weeds are finally ending.
> 
> I'd say go for it. Plus it's safe for grass seed. How cool is that?
> 
> And yeah, Stiltgrass seems to come from nowhere. Trying to get rid of all the seeds in the neighborhood before it becomes an issue. Had some in the back last year, too. Really need to get Dimension down soon there at the edge.
> 
> Ever seen Stiltgrass in person? Doesn't even look like grass.


I think you just sold me on Gallery this fall. I would be so happy if, this fall, I could just focus on Pre-M, fertilizer, and working on the soil with humic, tine aeration, and N-Ext products etc. The period of vigorous growth in the fall is short. Since I don't apply fertilizer until the seed from my overseed has established, I feel like I miss the chance to make the most of fertilizer apps. 
I don't think I've seen stiltgrass in my lawn. I do frequently see some vicious looking weeds in my mulch beds, but I usually don't try to identify them.


----------



## pennstater2005

I would be very happy with any of your grass. It always looks lush.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I would be very happy with any of your grass. It always looks lush.


Except the bermuda!! 

Hey @pennstater2005, thank you. I appreciate that.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would be very happy with any of your grass. It always looks lush.
> 
> 
> 
> Except the bermuda!!
> 
> Hey @pennstater2005, thank you. I appreciate that.
Click to expand...

I've found the trick with my grass is don't look too closely. Also, I would grow Bermuda here if I could. That fill in ability is unmatched!


----------



## Green

@social port, saw a post of yours advising someone and you mentioned that newer TTTF cultivars don't seem to do well in heat. So, what about older ones? Does your experience show that some of them handle it any better? Because a lot of the TTTF seed I've used in the past year on my low input area was indeed older cultivars. I wonder if they might do better in the non or minimally irrigated situation there in Summer.


----------



## social port

Hey @Green, that post is an instance of poor editing on my part. I meant to communicate the idea that the OP should expect for TTTF to do well, but that it is still a cool season grass and will therefore not like the heat. It will likely stress during the summer, but the grass type is still a good choice, IMO. I don't entertain any suspicion of older cultivars being more heat tolerant than newer ones. I apologize for the confusion.


----------



## social port

15 days since the last mow. It was time today.
I clocked over 4 hours in the lawn today. Mowing, trimming, edging, cleaning mowers, shaping shrubs.

The lawn was overgrown, but not by much. Very few areas required two passes to chop up clippings. Obviously, growth has slowed substantially.

I've been watering the bluegrass and the slopes in my front and side yard. It has rained some over the past few days, which has reduced my need to drag hoses. But it is very, very humid and hot. It is not nice weather for cool season grass.

Disease is very high right now. The front yard is the worst. The backyard is the best. That is significant for two reasons. The back yard has had an additional application of N-Ext products (RGS, Air-8). And the backyard is cut at 3.5, while the front is cut at 4.5. I do think HOC plays the much bigger role bigger, but I did want to point out a possible contribution from N-Ext supplementation (better drainage, perhaps).
I also have to say that the color difference between 3.5 and 4.5 isn't striking enough to justify the 4.5 cut. I'm not going to change anything just yet, but I'm beginning to build a case for lowering HOC in future years if I continue to observe this pattern. 
I'm also entertaining the hypothesis that disease outbreaks are clustering around areas where I tend to turn around on my zero turn mower. I definitely see a pattern here--in areas where I turn around, brown patch is alive and well. However, I'm not yet convinced that outbreaks in these areas are substantially higher than other areas of my yard.

Yesterday, I hit some goosegrass and some dallisgrass that have been relentless in my stand of midnight. I used a little soul stealer cco -- a remainder of a previous mix for killing bermuda. I tried to be very gentle with my app, but some midnight definitely got hit in the process.

Found 3 new patches of bermuda this evening. Will hit ASAP when the weather conditions are right.

I'm also hard at work, when time permits, on building a new striper for my zero turn.


----------



## Green

Wow, 15 days. I guess that's from the heat. My grandfather's lawn (non-irrigated) is at that point now...stopping growing...in fact, his front lawn has gone pretty brown over the past week as there has been little rain and lots of sun.

I'm glad that the average high temp here has been 88 or so the past 3 or so weeks, and that the humidity has not been like it was last year. But we may get to or near 100 later in the week. Have you gotten to 95+ many days this year yet?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Wow, 15 days. I guess that's from the heat. My grandfather's lawn (non-irrigated) is at that point now...stopping growing...in fact, his front lawn has gone pretty brown over the past week as there has been little rain and lots of sun.
> 
> I'm glad that the average high temp here has been 88 or so the past 3 or so weeks, and that the humidity has not been like it was last year. But we may get to or near 100 later in the week. Have you gotten to 95+ many days this year yet?


No, not many. 97 is the forecast for later this week.

Temps since June have been pretty consistent: lows around 73, and highs around 93. Very humid. It seems like the upper 80s may be the temp at which my fescue decides to apply a hard brake on growing.


----------



## social port

I've been on the fence about using grub control. I know that I've had grubs in the past, but I've never observed damage, and I've never treated. During my last mow, I noticed one too many white, flying insects moving around.

I bought Bayer Advanced Complete Insect Killer granules (cyfluthrin .05%, imidacloprid .72%) and applied today. Less than 16 bucks to cover my entire lawn?! Thank you. 
In a perfect world, I would have applied 2-3 weeks ago.

There are some storms rolling through this afternoon. Projected rainfall is 0.5 inches. That would be about perfect if it pans out.


----------



## social port

It nearly feels like fall today. I cut some very overgrown bluegrass and fescue. Violated the one-third rule like a madman on the bluegrass. Edged and trimmed as well. There has been a lot of rain since last mow. There was a drastic temperature change today, and the grass already seems happier.
My fescue is darker than my bluegrass right now, but I dare say that the bluegrass is outperforming the fescue this summer. I see no disease in the bluegrass. I think it is growing faster than the fescue. And it is sooooo thick.

Bluegrass mix 


Midnight. Most of those brown spots are from soul stealer 


TTTF at 2.5 


TTTF at 4.5


----------



## pennstater2005

Dang it all looks good. The mix looks great though.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Dang it all looks good. The mix looks great though.


Thanks. I did not expect for the bluegrass to be doing so well at the end of July.


----------



## Budstl

So when can we see a full kbg reno? You know you want too.


----------



## pennstater2005

Budstl said:


> So when can we see a full kbg reno? You know you want too.


Yes. This is a good idea.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Budstl said:
> 
> 
> 
> So when can we see a full kbg reno? You know you want too.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. This is a good idea.
Click to expand...

 :lol: 
Yeah, I am definitely tempted, but the dark green of that fescue is pretty persuasive, too.
I imagine renovating 5k - 10k every year to make things more manageable. I want to install an irrigation system before converting to all bluegrass. No doubt about that.


----------



## social port

Took advantage of the brief break in temps. Applied WBG CCO at 1 floz/g with NIS this afternoon. I'm trying to address some wild violet and a few other pests trying to take a stand. Overall, I'm very happy with my PreM results this year. Early app was Sta-Green crab-ex (dithiopyr) at bag rate. Second app was dithiopyr via Lebanon Turf (I believe) at bag rate.

I need to use another round of soul stealer (3 new patches of bermuda). I'm also planning to hit some of the goosegrass and dallisgrass in my midnight, but I'm going to wait until they are more visible from a few days of growth after my mow.


----------



## social port

Yesterday, I applied soul stealer CCO to four new patches of Bermuda. Also hit some goosegrass and dallisgrass in the midnight-quite a bit, actually. The midnight will take a hit, but it had to be done.

Looks like my TTTF is thinning some


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> Yesterday, I applied soul stealer CCO to four new patches of Bermuda. Also hit some goosegrass and dallisgrass in the midnight-quite a bit, actually. The midnight will take a hit, but it had to be done.
> 
> Looks like my TTTF is thinning some


I cannot believe you are fighting Bermuda again.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday, I applied soul stealer CCO to four new patches of Bermuda. Also hit some goosegrass and dallisgrass in the midnight-quite a bit, actually. The midnight will take a hit, but it had to be done.
> 
> Looks like my TTTF is thinning some
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot believe you are fighting Bermuda again.
Click to expand...

Different patches from last year. Nothing hit last year has returned, as far as I can determine.


----------



## social port

Found additional patches of Bermuda today. It is starting to add up. I'm beginning to think that the only answer is a complete reno in my side yard using soul stealer CCO.

Bermuda popping up through some overgrown TTTF 




Some bermuda that's already been hit



Edged and trimmed today. Mowed bluegrass and slopes. Overgrown again. Decided to bag. The bluegrass did not like the excess clippings left from the previous mow. 
I still need to mow most of the TTTF with my zero turn.

End of July shots of bluegrass and 2.5 cut TTTF
The bluegrass is ready for some water.

Bluegrass mix 


Midnight 

TTTF at 2.5


----------



## pennstater2005

Only because of you SP can I now identify Bermuda grass.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Only because of you SP can I now identify Bermuda grass.


I'm not sure how I feel about that :lol:


----------



## social port

Finished mowing today. I found more bermuda. More and more! And more!
All of the patches are now marked with sprinklers or large screwdrivers.
I'm going to listen to the theme song of Gangs of New York and then go to war.

I'm going to say that I didn't miss this stuff last year. There is no way that I missed it. I can think of three explanations:
1. It has come from seed. I believe that common bermuda seedheads produce viable seeds. However, I almost always pull seedheads and carefully walk them to the garage where I dispose of them in bags.
2. It has come from sprigs via mowing and dethatching. That is a possibility.
3. It has been living a half-life in my soil from past years. It almost died in the summer of 2017 and was still on life support all through 2018, living somewhere in the soil. It finally gained enough power late July of this year to begin growing again.

I'm betting on 3.

I'm not doing a reno this year. But while I am thinking about it: I'm not wild about broadcast spraying soul stealer cco. What I could do is a gly app in May. That will take out the fescue and the bermuda. But with water and fert, the bermuda will come back. Then I could spot spray the bermuda with soul stealer cco. The extra water, sunlight, and fert might also be enough to grow any bermuda unable to come out to play in May.
I would need to be ready to install at least part of an irrigation system if I did the reno.


----------



## pennstater2005

Have you read about the Benefits of Bermudagrass? I hear it's wonderful.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Have you read about the Benefits of Bermudagrass? I hear it's wonderful.


----------



## social port

Listened to the Gangs of New York theme song last night.

Mixed some soul stealer CCO this morning. Hit some bermuda.

Now I'm off to work on the playground project.


----------



## social port

PLANNING FOR FALL !!

I am not yet sure whether I will need to overseed this fall, but as of right now, I think that I will not need to overseed. That means that my fall lawn care needs will be a bit different this year. And I'll also be taking care of bluegrass. I'm hoping to do some things to make my lawn stand out a bit more, as vague as that goal may be.

So I have spent some time thinking about my plans this fall. Here is what I have so far.

Priorities: 
1. Please TTTF, I know that you are already awesome, but can you be any greener throughout the year? How can I make you healthier and happier?
2. Improve my soil. I've been a little disappointed with how hard my soil is getting during the summer. I've been pretty faithful with my N-Ext apps (air-8, rgs). Perhaps add heave aeration and extra humic.
3. Reduce weed pressure even more
4. Make my KBG spread to fill in gaps.
5. Patch dead Bermuda spots with TTTF

Early September:
Heave aeration 
Apply Gallery (Granular)
Apply Dithiopyr or Prodiamine. Dithiopyr is easier to source. If Prodiamine, use at 0. 65 lbs AI per Acre, per Fall N Blitz
Can Gallery and Dithiopyr/Prod be safely used in conjunction?
0.25-0.5 lbs N via Carbon Earth for TTTF and for KBG /single app
Low rate of humic acid

Late September:
Post-M weed control (likely Triclopyr)
Hand-pull grassy weeds (goosegrass)
0.5lbs N via Carbon Earth for KBG/weekly
0.5lbs N via Carbon Earth for TTTF/single app
Dig up Bermuda or use pro plugger. Replace top layer of soil with Black Kow or something comparable. Seed fescue. Use peat moss. (This is an alternative strategy for mowing/trimming dead areas and then loosening the soil).

Early October:
Heavier apps of humic acid
RGS
Air-8
Transition to fast-release N for bluegrass (likely Urea): 0.5 lbs/weekly
0.5 lbs N via Carbon Earth for TTTF/single app
Iron for TTTF?? (or something else here??)

Mid October:
.5 lbs NPK for TTTF/single app
Continue fast-release N for bluegrass (likely urea): 0.5 lbs/weekly 
Continue post-M as needed

Early November:
.5 lbs NPK for TTTF/single app
Continue fast-release N for bluegrass (likely urea): 0.5 lbs/weekly
Humic Acid

Reassess mid-November, possibly continuing to push fast-release N for the bluegrass

Do not exceed more than 3 lbs of total N this fall for the TTTF.


----------



## g-man

Do you have a soil test?


----------



## social port

g-man said:


> Do you have a soil test?


From 2017. The main trends
Low cec, boron, magnesium, and potassium.

I pulled samples this year, but I didn't send them off. Do you think that the samples could still be used? The soil is in a ziplock bag in the garage. It has been there for about 5 months.


----------



## g-man

I would collect new samples.


----------



## social port

Mowed and trimmed today. The bluegrass is still growing - and more vigorously than my fescue, as far as I can tell.

The fescue has a lot of brown patch at the moment, but it is hanging in ok 


I'm not as confident about the bluegrass. Last week, I noticed something a bit off with its color. I gave it two hours of water the next morning, and there has been substantial rainfall since then. It crossed my mind today that it might need a little N, but it is going to be humid and in the 90s for the next several weeks.
I don't think that these pictures do justice to how the stands look. 
If you see anything concerning, please let me know. Note that all patches of dead grass are from soul stealer CCO.


----------



## pennstater2005

I can see the color variations in the KBG. Not sure what's going on there.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

It looks pretty darn good to me. What if you threw some organic N now if you feel the colour is off? Synthetic might not be good with the temps your getting but something like milo might be ok I would think?


----------



## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> It looks pretty darn good to me. What if you threw some organic N now if you feel the colour is off? Synthetic might not be good with the temps your getting but something like milo might be ok I would think?


That is what I was thinking, but I think I have an allergy to fertilizing my grass during the summer, and so it is a difficult decision.

pennstater's comment made me notice the different patterns of color more clearly, and that is leading me to wonder about compaction. I'm not sure that compaction would have that effect, but I am going to test tomorrow.

My main concern is that I am missing some indications of demise in the bluegrass. I would kick myself if I lost the stands to N deficiency or something similar. If you all aren't seeing something that is worrisome, then I'm good. I can tolerate a less-than-optimal appearance for a month or two. I am planning on a Carbon-X app at the beginning of next month.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

social port said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks pretty darn good to me. What if you threw some organic N now if you feel the colour is off? Synthetic might not be good with the temps your getting but something like milo might be ok I would think?
> 
> 
> 
> That is what I was thinking, but I think I have an allergy to fertilizing my grass during the summer, and so it is a difficult decision.
> 
> pennstater's comment made me notice the different patterns of color more clearly, and that is leading me to wonder about compaction. I'm not sure that compaction would have that effect, but I am going to test tomorrow.
> 
> My main concern is that I am missing some indications of demise in the bluegrass. I would kick myself if I lost the stands to N deficiency or something similar. If you all aren't seeing something that is worrisome, then I'm good. I can tolerate a less-than-optimal appearance for a month or two. I am planning on a Carbon-X app at the beginning of next month.
Click to expand...

To my eyes it doesn't look like there is anything other than a slight stress from heat but nothing crazy. I honestly don't know how you keep the bluegrass looking so good and out of dormancy with the temps you have to deal with on a consistent basis.


----------



## social port

Thanks for the feedback and for the words of encouragement, @SNOWBOB11!
Those observations are relieving.


----------



## Green

Hey, @social port, I read the last few posts. Was wondering, can you rule out the beginning of Dollar Spot by looking at the blades before going any further? It doesn't have to be discreet spots of the lawn that are affected...it can be a generalized brown tinge in some areas, too. Brown Patch is possible, too, but since this is KBG and not TTTF or TTPR, it wouldn't be as likely. But I've seen this presentation before for both diseases, and I didn't have to treat as it wasn't too bad.


----------



## social port

This morning, I used my long screwdriver to see how much resistance I could feel in the soil. I tested six locations, and I hit 10 inches rather easily in most of the locations. There was significant rainfall last night, so it is an open question about how things would go under dry conditions. Nevertheless, I am comfortable saying that this is not an issue related to compaction.

Guess what I noticed this morning that I did not see at all yesterday? Lesions. I must have had my blinders on!

I don't have much experience with dollar spot first-hand, but the pattern I see on the blades is consistent with the disease. @Green, the distribution in the stand is more generalized than discrete. Interesting. Given the character of the distribution, I don't think DS would have otherwise occurred to me.

Oh well, I'm going to push through. As long as it isn't nutrition deficiency, I'm OK. A little disease doesn't scare me (much).


----------



## pennstater2005

I'll say my KBG/PRG also has discoloration throughout. But some blades are fine. I attribute it to having 6 different cultivars between the two grass types. Some must fare better than others. That's why I'd be terrified to do a monostand.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I'll say my KBG/PRG also has discoloration throughout. But some blades are fine. I attribute it to having 6 different cultivars between the two grass types. Some must fare better than others. That's why I'd be terrified to do a monostand.


I have become less convinced of the value of blends. I still think it is a good idea, but it doesn't seem as necessary as it once did.

I have tried and tried to link incidence of brown patch in my TTTF to a single cultivar, but time and again, I find that all of the grass in an infected area has the disease--which would mean that all cultivars are similarly affected. It is the same thing for heat stress, drought stress etc. The one exception is that I may have linked a single cultivar with leaf spot last year, but I'm not sure.

As time goes on, I'm increasingly drawn to monostands. I have renovations in the future, and at this point, I'm pretty much sold on either a KBG mono or a TTTF mono. And I know it is potentially a can of worms, but the mono is what I find most interesting and compelling.

At the same time, I acknowledge that I will be heartbroken if/when I lose the whole thing during a fatal two week period during the summer.


----------



## Budstl

I couldn't tell anything from the pics, but if you been humid and wet, you likely have some dollar spot. Have you noticed any mycelium in the early morning? A little bit of fert will help aid in the recovery of ds. Up to you. Lawn looks great by the way. Kbg in the transition zone, peace a cake.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> I couldn't tell anything from the pics, but if you been humid and wet, you likely have some dollar spot. Have you noticed any mycelium in the early morning? A little bit of fert will help aid in the recovery of ds. Up to you. Lawn looks great by the way. Kbg in the transition zone, peace a cake.


Going forward, I'll be looking for mycelium in the mornings. Definitely nothing this morning, but I don't think conditions were quite right for it.
I noticed mycelium last year in my TTTF -- in the same areas where the bluegrass is now.



Budstl said:


> Kbg in the transition zone, peace a cake.


 :lol: Cheers to you, Budstl :beer:


----------



## social port

Applied soul stealer cco to new patches of bermuda today. I looked for and found no new growth around patches that have already been hit.
I found a little wild violet still camping out in the side yard. I hit 3 stalks of dallisgrass coming up in the midnight. I spotted three small areas of spurge. I believe that I am also seeing wild garlic coming up. Otherwise, I am OK in the weed department.

Surprisingly, my TTTF has reduced disease pressure. I see very little at the moment. Strange, because it has been incredibly humid for the last week. 
The bluegrass looks about the same with respect to disease -- no better, not much worse. And no mycelium observed after checking every morning.

I had one concern last year when I overseeded: I ran a dethatcher in the backyard, and I was really concerned about bringing a bunch of seeds up. At this point, nearly one year later, I can say that I did not experience high weed pressure in the backyard. The dethatcher presumably had no ill effects with respect to spreading weeds, at least when combined with pre-M practices.

Finally, I am now the proud owner of 100 lbs of carbon x. Prof Pete got it shipped to me in 24 hours from NC!! 
I am going to begin applications early this fall at a low rate. Check out this post from osuturfman re carbon-x.

Need to mow soon.


----------



## social port

Mowed, trimmed, edged today. Grass is hanging in. Definitely getting some heat damage by the road. Bluegrass looks ready for cooler temps.
I'm betting that our hottest day occurred yesterday (around 97; high humidity brought the heat index to 108+). 
Brief cool down today, but temps and humidity are right back up there for the next ten days or so. I thought I might be done watering for the summer, but now I think that is unlikely.

It is beginning to feel like the never-ending summer, but this happens every year.


----------



## pennstater2005

That is some hot weather! How do you even work out in that? It was 80 here today with higher humidity and I thought it was miserable.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That is some hot weather! How do you even work out in that? It was 80 here today with higher humidity and I thought it was miserable.


I remind myself that Ware is working in conditions that are much worse. It isn't so bad every now and then. But day-after-day, it wears you down. 
When I'm doing mowing, I feel like I am pretty much spent, and my TLF hat is completely soaked. It is nasty business.


----------



## Green

We had a day or two like that a few weeks ago. I think it was 96 the first day with a heat index of 111, and then 97 the next day with slightly less humidity. (It was originally forecast to be 100.) It didn't get below 77 that night (81 in Boston...highest low record temp). My neighbor mowed one of those nights... :lol: These people, they mow when it's hot, and then water at night (evening) to compensate... :nod: ughhh...can you say fungus? No sprinkler system is perfect...all overshoot property borders to some degree. Though, that neighbor told me I'm welcome to adjust his if he doesn't get to it first.

I was out there, watering all the new grass patches in the heat of the day dragging the hose around, lol...

Interesting fact: Miami had a record high low temp one day this year in July...it didn't get below 84 one night. Imagine it being 94 during the day, and 84 at the coolest that night...with a dewpoint in the upper 70s.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> We had a day or two like that a few weeks ago. I think it was 96 the first day with a heat index of 111, and then 97 the next day with slightly less humidity. (It was originally forecast to be 100.) It didn't get below 77 that night (81 in Boston...highest low record temp). My neighbor mowed one of those nights... :lol: These people, they mow when it's hot, and then water at night (evening) to compensate... :nod: ughhh...can you say fungus? No sprinkler system is perfect...all overshoot property borders to some degree. Though, that neighbor told me I'm welcome to adjust his if he doesn't get to it first.
> 
> I was out there, watering all the new grass patches in the heat of the day dragging the hose around, lol...
> 
> Interesting fact: Miami had a record high low temp one day this year in July...it didn't get below 84 one night. Imagine it being 94 during the day, and 84 at the coolest that night...with a dewpoint in the upper 70s.


Yeah, I think that we are going to be flirting with 80 degrees during the night in the coming week. No fun. When you look outside at night, there is film-like substance coating everything. It doesn't look wet. It is more like a coat of fog.


----------



## Mark B

social port said:


> Mowed, trimmed, edged today. Grass is hanging in. Definitely getting some heat damage by the road. Bluegrass looks ready for cooler temps.
> I'm betting that our hottest day occurred yesterday (around 97; high humidity brought the heat index to 108+).
> Brief cool down today, but temps and humidity are right back up there for the next ten days or so. I thought I might be done watering for the summer, but now I think that is unlikely.
> 
> It is beginning to feel like the never-ending summer, but this happens every year.


Hey!

Am I getting this right? I'm in UK so need to convert to Celcius. 97F = 36C. 108F = 42C? Are you kidding me?? Oh, respect to you my man! That cannot be comfortable :| I played squash once in that and after a few games we both simply admitted to not being able to continue. Sometimes you gotta stop and call time :lol: :lol:

I've been reading through your journal, 47 enjoyable pages so far, you have been doing a wonderful job! Glad to see you enjoying yourself :beer:


----------



## social port

TheWhiteWizard said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Mowed, trimmed, edged today. Grass is hanging in. Definitely getting some heat damage by the road. Bluegrass looks ready for cooler temps.
> I'm betting that our hottest day occurred yesterday (around 97; high humidity brought the heat index to 108+).
> Brief cool down today, but temps and humidity are right back up there for the next ten days or so. I thought I might be done watering for the summer, but now I think that is unlikely.
> 
> It is beginning to feel like the never-ending summer, but this happens every year.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey!
> 
> Am I getting this right? I'm in UK so need to convert to Celcius. 97F = 36C. 108F = 42C? Are you kidding me?? Oh, respect to you my man! That cannot be comfortable :| I played squash once in that and after a few games we both simply admitted to not being able to continue. Sometimes you gotta stop and call time :lol: :lol:
> 
> I've been reading through your journal, 47 enjoyable pages so far, you have been doing a wonderful job! Glad to see you enjoying yourself :beer:
Click to expand...

108 was only the heat index (i.e., what it feels like) that day -- not the temperature. But still, it is uncomfortable! Compared to the warm season fellows, though, my summers are no big deal. I recall Ware posting some ridiculously oppressive numbers for the heat index in Arkansas.

Hey, thanks for commenting -- and for reading. And you are absolutely correct: I do enjoy this -- very much so. 10 years ago, I would have never predicted that serious lawn care and posting on a lawn forum would bring such satisfaction. But it surely does. Both of them.


----------



## social port

Applied soul stealer CCO to one newly identified patch of bermuda.
I took a few minutes to look under the TTTF canopy to see if I could track the patch of bermuda spreading anywhere. I couldn't find anything else. Apparently, it is a very isolated spot.

I also noticed that my soil is still pretty damp with all of the thick shade provided by my fescue. That is pretty amazing given how hot it has been. My TTTF is struggling some, and I am now inclined to believe it is heat stress rather than drought stress.

Still, I'm going to run the sprinklers tomorrow morning in areas that I typically don't need to irrigate.
With respect to my irrigation efforts, the bluegrass and my slopes have received the vast majority of attention this summer.


----------



## pennstater2005

How is the KBG doing now?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> How is the KBG doing now?


I watered it for nearly 4 hours the other morning. I think it is doing great. Both stands. Its color is now matching the TTTF more closely. 
All of that being true, I'm also sensing that it is ready for a break from the heat.


----------



## social port

My grass won't stop growing. It has been too hot and dry, but the lawn just won't stop. So, today I mowed, even though I just wanted to stay off the lawn due to the heat.

I think the bluegrass is growing faster than the fescue.

Lots of damage from heat and disease. I've been trying to keep up with watering, but it is challenging. 
I feel like this last stretch in August is really testing the lawn. I wouldn't be concerned, but really, this weather pattern probably won't change a lot for another month. I may get a little rain over the next several days, so that may help.

No new bermuda.

Some hand-pulling of oxalis and spurge (thanks, Green).

I got stung by a wasp. Pulled him off and smacked him. Pisseroffer. I've been watching a lot of Connor Ward videos lately.


----------



## Utk03analyst

We got a little rain in Murfreesboro I think an inch but I can't remember the last time I dumped my rain gauge. I thought May was bad but hopefully the worst is behind us.


----------



## Chris LI

The NE should be down in the 70's on Sunday. Hopefully, you will get some relief, too.


----------



## social port

Utk03analyst said:


> We got a little rain in Murfreesboro I think an inch but I can't remember the last time I dumped my rain gauge. I thought May was bad but hopefully the worst is behind us.





Chris LI said:


> The NE should be down in the 70's on Sunday. Hopefully, you will get some relief, too.


I hope so fellas. This weather is beating my fescue senseless. I've got a fall plan to initiate in the next two weeks, but I may need to delay a bit if things don't change.


----------



## Chris LI

On days I've been home during the day, I've been syringing and spraying kelp (and other goodies), which has helped reduce drought conditions, compared to previous years.

I think syringing alone, has helped. Hang in there!


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> On days I've been home during the day, I've been syringing and spraying kelp (and other goodies), which has helped reduce drought conditions, compared to previous years.
> 
> I think syringing alone, has helped. Hang in there!


 :thumbup: 
I just bought 10 lbs of that Neptune's Harvest kelp meal that tneicna posted a few days ago. Maybe I should take it for a spin.


----------



## Chris LI

Definitely give it a shot. I also saw the post and almost bit on buying some NH, but I still have liquid kelp and have been trying foliar apps this year, so I held off. Please update with your results. I might have to buy some for next summer.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> Definitely give it a shot. I also saw the post and almost bit on buying some NH, but I still have liquid kelp and have been trying foliar apps this year, so I held off. Please update with your results. I might have to buy some for next summer.


Will do. The stuff is pricey, though. I glanced at the label, and I believe that it recommended 10lbs per k. 
I think I will pick a troubled spot and compare
NH + regular irrigation
vs 
Regular irrigation


----------



## Chris LI

:thumbup:


----------



## pennstater2005

Do you have damage in the bluegrass as well? I know I do.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Do you have damage in the bluegrass as well? I know I do.


I think disease pressure is less than a few weeks ago. I never did do anything about it except for bag the clippings. I was concerned that the clippings were too heavy and possibly encouraging disease. Rate of growth has possibly been the biggest surprise this summer.

Certainly, the bluegrass is less affected by disease than the fescue.

While I think I'm good on the disease front, I feel like the bluegrass is struggling some with the extended heat, but it is still looking really good for August.


----------



## pennstater2005

Damn it does look good!


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Damn it does look good!


It does look better in the pictures than in person ... but there is nothing to really dislike here considering the time of year. 
There are a few areas that have a kind of purple hue to them, and I believe that is heat stress.

I've been debating a KBG transition. The bluegrass is doing really well in these two locations of the lawn, but the two locations are optimal in that there is increased water retention and partial shade. I question what would happen if I put KBG in an area that is pretty much full sun.

But I can't doing anything on that scale for at least another year.

At some point it occurred to me that I may like low cut turf rather than the bluegrass per se. So for this fall and next year, I've been considering transitioning my fescue to a 2.5 cut (or maybe lower). My test area for this year, where I have been cutting the TTTF at 2.5, has done well, so there is some promise. It receives the same amount of water as my bluegrass, though, and I won't be able to maintain that watering practice for the entire lawn. So it would be a gamble.


----------



## Budstl

Kbg is looking good. Can't wait to see it in the fall.


----------



## pennstater2005

@social port Just move up north. KBG likes it here.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looks good @social port. Am I crazy to think the bermuda areas you killed are filling in already?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Kbg is looking good. Can't wait to see it in the fall.


I know. I am very eager to look for color change. As fall approaches, the more it will keep me up at night. Eager is probably an understatement.  :bandit:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> @social port Just move up north. KBG likes it here.


Well, I've thought about moving to Alaska so I don't have to deal with bermuda, so moving north to grow bluegrass isn't out of bounds for my thinking. I like parts of Pennsylvania. I like northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin.

But for the time being, I'm liking how things are going in Tennessee. Just need an irrigation system. :nod:


----------



## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Looks good @social port. Am I crazy to think the bermuda areas you killed are filling in already?


No, not crazy at all. I don't have any Bermuda in the bluegrass, but I have been using non-selective herbicides for dealing with goosegrass and dallisgrass in the bluegrass areas. The three way mix has already filled in most of the dead areas. They were small dead areas, but still; it happened over summer. I think most of the spots in the midnight are still there, but the dead areas are smaller now. I think it will fill in quickly once temps come down 10-15 degrees.


----------



## social port

Also, I did document this regrowth. The midnight was damaged in late May. I'm not sure what died vs recovered, but the area is substantially better. The damage occurred from a plastic toy chest that sat on the grass for at least several days in hot temps. 
This picture was taken May 28


Today, it looks like this


The dead area on the far left in the picture isn't from the original damage. That damage occurred from a more recent herbicide app. So, it is only the middle area that remains from the damage in May.


----------



## social port

Two days of periodic rain and a 10+ degree cool down. Unexpected. It was enough to give at least some of the grass a little boost. If I didn't know better, I'd say that it is a good time to seed, but I doubt the heat is over for the summer.

My prodiamine is on order. Need to order gallery. Going to pull some plugs for a soil sample soon.

Mowed, edged, trimmed today. Found a patch of Bermuda in the backyard.

My front yard thinks it's fall 




Tried mowing single doubles (??) is the bluegrass, but the color isn't quite there


----------



## pennstater2005

Well it looks like it's all hanging in there strong going into fall!!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

I like the picture of that sweet riding mower with the green grass behind it.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Well it looks like it's all hanging in there strong going into fall!!


Yes, the temperature break and the rain really helped. I'm happy with where it is. I have been wanting to skip overseeding this year, and I think I can justify that. I'll only need to seed dead bermuda areas and an occasional patch of spent fescue that just couldn't make it through the summer. I'm going to focus on nutrition and soil health.



SNOWBOB11 said:


> I like the picture of that sweet riding mower with the green grass behind it.


Yeah, I thought that came out pretty well. That was spur-of-the-moment, as I was heading inside and then turned around to see that. Ah...
I didn't even notice the mess of a driveway until I had already posted. That is also getting fixed this fall.


----------



## samjonester

Nice! When do you think the heat will break and you will start fall feeding? The grass looks great after the summer! Do you use iron for color when it's hot?


----------



## social port

samjonester said:


> Nice! When do you think the heat will break and you will start fall feeding? The grass looks great after the summer! Do you use iron for color when it's hot?


No, I don't usually use iron. Using iron on heat-stressed grass makes me nervous (though it might be perfectly OK; I don't know). I believe that I did one app of Ironite last year and wasn't very impressed with the response. I do plan to give it another go this fall.

Right now, the weather is actually pretty good for feeding. I am very tempted to pull the trigger, but it could be costly. Temps could easily get back to the 90s during September, and I don't want to rock the boat with disease since I don't use fungicides.
Whenever the time comes, though, Carbon-X is getting the first shot. I'm excited about that.


----------



## Powhatan

social port said:


> Right now, the weather is actually pretty good for feeding. I am very tempted to pull the trigger, but it could be costly. Temps could easily get back to the 90s during September, and I don't want to rock the boat with disease since I don't use fungicides.


Yep, exactly. Transition zone - If there isn't tropical systems dropping buckets of water with high humidity in Sep, there'll be a week or so of higher temps again before they drop for fall. I usually have to re-overseed first part of Oct because most of what I put down in late Aug or mid-Sep usually drowns, dies with heat, or get's disease. That's another reason why I also dormant overseed in late winter.


----------



## social port

Powhatan said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Right now, the weather is actually pretty good for feeding. I am very tempted to pull the trigger, but it could be costly. Temps could easily get back to the 90s during September, and I don't want to rock the boat with disease since I don't use fungicides.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, exactly. Transition zone - If there isn't tropical systems dropping buckets of water with high humidity in Sep, there'll be a week or so of higher temps again before they drop for fall. I usually have to re-overseed first part of Oct because most of what I put down in late Aug or mid-Sep usually drowns, dies with heat, or get's disease. That's another reason why I also dormant overseed in late winter.
Click to expand...

Today, it's already back in the mid 80s. Humidity is rising again this weekend, so it will be back to same-old, same-old in a couple of days. Well, I enjoyed the brief relief. It was totally unexpected.
I'm still gonna pull some plugs, do some spot aeration, and try to time a preM app with a gentle rainfall. We're nearly there! :nod:


----------



## Utk03analyst

The relief was brief, looking at Weather Underground, no rain foretasted for the next 10 days. It doesn't mean much but I like to look at the historical charts and was getting optimistic about seed down this month with 6.9 inches of rain last September. Hopefully we'll get near the same rainfall this year last October it was only 2.9.


----------



## social port

Utk03analyst said:


> The relief was brief, looking at Weather Underground, no rain foretasted for the next 10 days. It doesn't mean much but I like to look at the historical charts and was getting optimistic about seed down this month with 6.9 inches of rain last September. Hopefully we'll get near the same rainfall this year last October it was only 2.9.


Yeah, it is so difficult to predict. The more I observe the weather and think about it, the more I am leaning towards pulling the trigger early this year. As best as I can tell, we are not fated for many 90+ days. If I see the low temp dipping below 70, then I'm off to the races. In fact, I am thinking 1-2 weeks. 
But I am only spot seeding, so there is less on the line.

That monster of a hurricane, Dorian, might cause enough shake-up that I have to reconsider my plan. We'll just have to see how that thing goes. I hope it doesn't bring any bermuda seedheads from Florida.

I'm planning to buy some compost tonight. I'm going to try to get weed seeds to germinate before I put it in my yard.


----------



## social port

I've been busy with various tasks in the yard. Quick rundown of the last few days.
Pulled cores for soil sample. Filled holes with compost and then sand on top.
Found more bermuda growing. Hit that bermuda with soul stealer cco.
I've been watering like crazy. I almost feel like I can't keep up, so I've been getting up earlier and earlier to start cycles.
The bluegrass has been extra thirsty, but it continues to grow like crazy.
I've been using an aeration fork (heave method) when time allows. At this point, I've aerated the slopes in my front yard, the middle section of the front yard, and half of the backyard. That is a lot of heaving.
The yard is so dry that I've developed the infamous concrete clay in certain areas. I've broken two metal sprinkler spikes during the past week while trying to get them into the ground. All the air-8 in the world won't help if your soil doesn't have enough water, I suppose.
I found even more bermuda today. I hit it all with soul stealer CCO. 
I also mowed today. Slightly overgrown, but no issue with clippings.
Broadleaf weeds are popping up, especially clover. I need my gallery right away.

I wish I would have made soap apps more regularly this summer (e.g., once or twice per month throughout the summer, rather than a big app in late spring). Better strategy for next year.

And here is a fresh cut of the three-way bluegrass. I used the same mowing pattern as last week.


----------



## pennstater2005

For all the heat you've been having I can't believe it looks that good.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> For all the heat you've been having I can't believe it looks that good.


I can't believe what my water bill will be either  
But yeah, I have just been hammering it with water.


----------



## samjonester

Looks good! What's your watering look like in comparison? Wondering how much different it is to the beginning of summer to keep it looking so good.


----------



## social port

samjonester said:


> Looks good! What's your watering look like in comparison? Wondering how much different it is to the beginning of summer to keep it looking so good.


Thanks, Sam. I do not use a formal schedule for watering, and I really don't carefully track anything. I water when I think the turf needs it. Some day I may implement some kind of formal measures to guide my decision-making, but not right now.

But I can say that there is a huge difference between how much I water at the start of summer versus the end. During the winter and spring, we get a lot of rain, and the soil holds water so well. That usually means that I can get by without watering for a very long time. However, once we have a 2+ week dry spell, high temps, and it's past July, then watering becomes necessary for most of the lawn.

I give the bluegrass a comparable amount of water that I give the TTTF on the sun-baked slopes of my front yard. In the past two weeks, demands have increased. For the most recent 7-day period, the bluegrass has had about 6 total hours of irrigation, which I estimate at 1.5-2.0 inches (MP3000s).


----------



## social port

Mowed the bluegrass yesterday. Learned that frequency of mowing is a decisive factor in pushing lateral growth. Although it is still really hot outside, my bluegrass is growing quickly, so it stands to reason that, if I increase my mowing frequency now, I could get a jump on getting it to spread.

I also mowed about half of the TTTF in the backyard at 2.5. My goal is to maintain all of the TTTF in the back at 2.5 this fall and throughout next season.

Ran the sprinklers for the bluegrass this morning, and then did nearly 3 hours for the TTTF backyard. It has had very little irrigation this summer, but I can't ask it to survive the coming week without some help.

At this point I have covered about 9,000 sq ft. with my trusty aeration fork (heave method). I'm getting pretty good with it. That's a lot of heaving. A lot of repetitions.

I'm ready to go with my prodiamine, but I'm going to hold off until I get the Gallery. I will apply them at the same time since they both needed to be watered in.
Rainfall might come in the next 10 days. I would really like to time the PreM app with that rainfall, as long as the rain isn't intense. If that can happen, I'm also going to hit the yard with N and K, as well as AIR-8.

Trying to keep everything alive in the meantime. Hot (up to upper 90s this week). Dry. Somewhat humid.

I think I'm going to order 5lbs or so of TTTF for my patch work this fall. LS 1200 or Turbo. Not sure which.

Edited to add: I'm going Turbo by default. LS1200 is on the way out :crying:. Goodbye, sweet cultivar. It is being replaced by Paramont (not Paramount).


----------



## Mark B

> Mowed the bluegrass yesterday. Learned that frequency of mowing is a decisive factor in pushing lateral growth. Although it is still really hot outside, my bluegrass is growing quickly, so it stands to reason that, if I increase my mowing frequency now, I could get a jump on getting it to spread.


Did you by chance happen to watch the same vid on the youtubes as I did?  
Or did you learn that some other place?



> Ran the sprinklers for the bluegrass this morning, and then did nearly 3 hours for the TTTF backyard. It has had very little irrigation this summer, but I can't ask it to survive the coming week without some help.
> 
> At this point I have covered about 9,000 sq ft. with my trusty aeration fork (heave method). I'm getting pretty good with it. That's a lot of heaving. A lot of repetitions.


Fairplay to you for putting in the work time. Are you filling all those holes with compost for added moisture retention? Beware the soil drying out even quicker with the extra surface area exposed.


----------



## social port

TheWhiteWizard said:


> Did you by chance happen to watch the same vid on the youtubes as I did?
> Or did you learn that some other place?


I suppose that I knew that mowing low helped with spreading, but I did not think about the role of mowing frequency. Bermuda is treated similarly to encourage lateral growth, so it makes a lot of sense to me. 
I suppose that I put 2 and 2 together to realize that I could be doing more now to encourage my bluegrass to spread. So much of my care for fescue during the summer involves staying off of it (i.e., not stressing it), and I have been treating my bluegrass very much the same way. I came across the information in this thread on tillering. Care to share which videos you were watching? I wouldn't mind viewing those .



TheWhiteWizard said:


> Fairplay to you for putting in the work time. Are you filling all those holes with compost for added moisture retention? Beware the soil drying out even quicker with the extra surface area exposed.


No, I'm not adding compost. I think core aeration would be better suited for making amendments like that. As I continue to practice good cultural care and use N-ext products, the happier I am with my soil. I do plan to throw down a little peat moss in areas, though, to add some organic matter.
As for drying out...well, I hadn't considered that possibility. The heave method leaves a very small footprint on the soil surface. In fact, I can't really see where I have aerated. My grass has a very thick canopy in most places. That being said, I can imagine how increased airflow to the subsurface might lead to faster drying, but I would assume that the effect would be mitigated by better/deeper water absorption.
But on the whole, I'm not happy about aeration during the current weather conditions. Now just happens to be the moment that I must do it if I am going to aerate this year.

On a related note, I broke my trusty aeration fork this evening. I ran down to Lowes to pick up a different fork. They took it back without a receipt and didn't charge me for the price difference. I'm not sure if Lowes, in general, is simply very generous, or if some SP charm worked a little magic.  
I think that I'm going to put a TLF sticker on the new fork. Doing so might help prevent another break.


----------



## Mark B

> Care to share which videos you were watching? I wouldn't mind viewing those .


Mr Connor Ward talks about thickening up the grass at 12 minutes in, in one of his latest vids, it's called Tenacity bleaching in a new lawn. 
I do love watching his channel.
When you mentioned learning about tillering that video came to mind as I'd only just viewed it, made me think you'd done the same lol.

Regarding the heave method with a garden fork, that's exactly what I did early spring last year. Especially towards the bottom of my sloped lawn when the water naturally runs towards. My climate can be very wet at times and with some traffic and neglect it had become quite compacted. When I heaved on the fork there were plenty of audible hisses of air escaping! It really needed doing. The grass was not growing well in those areas but now it is. I fertilised afterwards with a Maxwell mycorrhizal fertiliser. At that time I wasn't on the forum and didn't document it with pics, shame. I have a small compost making area in my garden and I like to add the compost as a top dressing to these areas especially, as the worms go mad for it and naturally aerate for me. I've not noticed compaction in these areas since spring 2018 and haven't aerated since.


----------



## social port

TheWhiteWizard said:


> Mr Connor Ward talks about thickening up the grass at 12 minutes in, in one of his latest vids, it's called Tenacity bleaching in a new lawn.
> I do love watching his channel.


I haven't seen that one yet, but I will make sure that I do!
I find that I go through phases with the lawn care videos on youtube. Lately, it is Mr. Ward's videos that have received most of my attention. For the past couple of weeks, I've adopted some of his 'lawn-care-everyday' approach, and I feel like I am much more connected to my land. One thing that is somewhat distinctive of his videos is his lack of agenda. I don't feel like he is explicitly trying to teach anything. His videos are more along the lines of: 'This is what I am doing today. Come along if you want to. I might talk about it some if I feel like it.'


TheWhiteWizard said:


> Regarding the heave method with a garden fork, that's exactly what I did early spring last year. Especially towards the bottom of my sloped lawn when the water naturally runs towards. My climate can be very wet at times and with some traffic and neglect it had become quite compacted. When I heaved on the fork there were plenty of audible hisses of air escaping! It really needed doing. The grass was not growing well in those areas but now it is. I fertilised afterwards with a Maxwell mycorrhizal fertiliser. At that time I wasn't on the forum and didn't document it with pics, shame. I have a small compost making area in my garden and I like to add the compost as a top dressing to these areas especially, as the worms go mad for it and naturally aerate for me. I've not noticed compaction in these areas since spring 2018 and haven't aerated since.


That is very cool! I don't hear of very many people using this technique. It is labor intensive, but I really like doing it, and I like the idea behind it. 
You've piqued my interest with using the heave method as the aeration technique when adding compost. Maybe I will go this route if I work on my soil next year.


----------



## Green

@social port, my Tall Fescue is spreading to recover from Summer damage. There are patches of wider-bladed Tall Fescue that are getting bigger over the past month or so. It's so weird how it does that. It forms dense tufts of thick grass with stems that grow at odd angles. I guess Tall Fescue lawns become uneven over time...


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## social port

Green said:


> my Tall Fescue is spreading to recover from Summer damage. There are patches of wider-bladed Tall Fescue that are getting bigger over the past month or so. It's so weird how it does that. It forms dense tufts of thick grass with stems that grow at odd angles. I guess Tall Fescue lawns become uneven over time...


That kind of makes me wonder if blade width is partly dependent on season. I've never cared to steep myself in plant physiology and anatomy, so that idea may be entirely ridiculous.
But there is a logic here, I think.
We already assume that TTTF leaves get wider with age. 
We also know that leaves at least appear to get thinner under conditions of drought.
What if basic leaf width does slightly increase over time, and there is also variability in leaf width during each season. Perhaps mid summer is the thinnest because the plant is least active. What if vigorous growth during spring and fall makes the leaves temporarily wider than their natural state? That would be easy to track over time, but it would also take some long-term attention and consistency to get those measurements.

Also, the way that you describe stems growing at odd angles kind of sounds like lateral growth.


----------



## Green

A lot of this does make sense hypothetically speaking. Also, this past Winter was harsh to the grass for some reason. Lawns lost a lot of their blades. It took a while for them to be replaced in the Spring. Often, at last in tough Winters, the same blades don't all survive year to year.

My neighbor's lawn was so thin in March. In April, they started fertilizing the heck out of it. It filled in fully by May or so. I think they put down 2-3 lbs/M between April and May. They were lucky the heat didn't get it too bad for their fertilizing sins. I think they've put down 3.5-4 lbs up to this point now, and they'll probably do another 1.5 in November.  it's growing like crazy now. Not Tall Fescue, but just an illustration of blade growth. They have lots of fine fescue and PR, some KBG, and a little Tall Fescue, Triv, and Bent.

Tall Fescue isn't aggressive, but given a gap, it will try to slowly move into the area, in a very strong, bunchy way. PR does something similar, but the blades are narrower and less stiff.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Tall Fescue isn't aggressive, but given a gap, it will try to slowly move into the area, in a very strong, bunchy way


On that note...we've had some talk about rhizomatous fescue recently.
The other day, I heard an interesting take on the subject: Spreading fescue is not new. Rhizomes can be observed even in 'unimproved' fescue such as KY31. The spreading isn't aggressive. And rhizomes are not widespread, but it does happen, albeit on a small scale. So claims that a fescue cultivar is a spreading type are misleading (akin to saying, perhaps, that there is a new 'sweet' version of chocolate, when, of course, all chocolate is sweet). The LS/Rhizomatous strains spread as much as their older counterparts.

What we may be seeing, then, is not evidence that the newer cultivars, in particular, spread. What we see is evidence that fescue spreads, but does so on a very small scale.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> What we may be seeing, then, is not evidence that the newer cultivars, in particular, spread. What we see is evidence that fescue spreads, but does so on a very small scale.


Absolutely. I can probably show you some KY-31 in my neighborhood that has spread over time, because a lot of people have patches in their lawn of it. And it's the same growth pattern as the improved stuff. Remember that house I told you about where the lawn filled in over time (years) and a lot of it appeared to be KY-31?

Anyway, there are articles talking about both Tall Fescue and Ryegrass spreading from a long time ago (1900s). They do. Just not fast. I see underground pseudostolons (determinate stolons) on Ryegrass plants from time-to-time.

If this wasn't the case, you'd never have to edge. I don't know about you, but if I haven't edged in a long time (a year or two) I get grass with roots I can actually use (replant) elsewhere being cut off from the edge.

But I think the idea is, they're trying to make it happen faster with the more compact growth patterns, etc. Apparently some in nature are more rhizomatous in tendency than others, too.

There are also Tall Fescues in nature that are much better at dormancy than the ones the turf companies sell currently. But I think the reason we don't see them right now in turf seed is because of that, they go brown very readily in hot temperatures, much like fine fescue. If they could find a way to combine the two and keep both traits, it would be great. Remember that ranking on the drought avoidance and drought tolerance in that document I posted. The current turf type Tall Fescue was really good at staying green, but only so-so at ability to stay dormant long-term.


----------



## social port

@Green, I really like your line of thought above. I hear a conclusion waiting on RTF: Yes, TTTF spreads, but not vigorously enough to rely on spreading as the main source for providing lawn integrity (i.e., fullness of the stand). There is effort underway to develop cultivars that are superior spreaders, but there is currently no clear evidence that cultivars labeled as RTF are better than TF with regard to 'spreading vigor.'

By the way, do I recall correctly that you are a fan of Bullseye? It isn't quite gone. Hogan's should have some available in 1-2 weeks. :mrgreen:


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Hogan's should have some available in 1-2 weeks. :mrgreen:


Yes...I'm one of the people behind that.  
That reminds me, I need to call Stephen tomorrow to follow up on it. I wasn't going to post anything about this until he confirmed he had it in his hands. As far as I know, he only was able to snag a very small order.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green, I really like your line of thought above. I hear a conclusion waiting on RTF: Yes, TTTF spreads, but not vigorously enough to rely on spreading as the main source for providing lawn integrity (i.e., fullness of the stand). There is effort underway to develop cultivars that are superior spreaders, but there is currently no clear evidence that cultivars labeled as RTF are better than TF with regard to 'spreading vigor.'


Yeah, that's the expert assessment as I understand it. KY-31 spreads as well as, say, Firecracker LS or RTF. Now, No-Net (e.g. "Flame")--I don't know if they're a step ahead with that, or still roughly the same. I've used it, but have nothing to look at to judge spreading.

I read that Hard Fescue (also a bunchgrass) can have short rhizomes and slow spreading, too.

Creeping Red has even more...there is the "slender" form, which has shorter and fewer rhizomes, and the "strong" type which spreads noticeably, and actually can take over a whole lawn over a 30-year period if the other species in the mix die out or get subdued by disease, lack of nutrients, etc. Remember my area I dig up in the low-input area in April due to rocks? I never added seed...just replaced the existing sod (mostly CRF, I believe) and added fertilizer. It now looks like I never dug there.

In the front, including right by the street curb, I had irrigation work done in the mid Spring. The guy dug it up and put it back. No seed. Everything looks fine now...no real gaps (Northern mix).

Apparently even Chewings Fescue, a bunchgrass without rhizomes, can be pretty aggressive under low-input conditions and forms a dense sod (I believe I've seen some, and it looks like mat) by tillering over time. I don't think you could really overseed into that.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Yes...I'm one of the people behind that.


 :lol: , that's awesome.



Green said:


> That reminds me, I need to call Stephen tomorrow to follow up on it. I wasn't going to post anything about this until he confirmed he had it in his hands. As far as I know, he only was able to snag a very small order.


Yeah, give him a call. I was going to post something about its availability in the cool season sub-forum, but I won't if you are going to do it.


----------



## social port

I mowed the bluegrass again on Wednesday. I have also been taking the TTTF in the backyard down to 2.5, where I hope to maintain it for the next year. I also found 3 new patches of bermuda that I need to hit in the coming days.

I am eager to start fertilizing and putting down my fall PreM. I'm also wanting to use air-8. I thought I could hold out until, say, next Monday, and I was banking on lower temps and maybe a little rain.

Well, the recent forecast suggests a temperature reduction, but not nearly enough (from the upper 90s to the mid 90s), and virtually no rainfall for the next 10 days or so. Not really what I was expecting.

I may proceed with my fall treatments despite the weather. I'm planning to apply products by zones in order to manage the irrigation side of the application.

Within the next several days I plan to
Hit the remaining bermuda patches
Fertilize, PreM, K, and Air-8 the side section of my front yard.
Low temps are at least going to be below 70 some nights (e.g., 68), so that helps with confidence a little bit.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes...I'm one of the people behind that.
> 
> 
> 
> :lol: , that's awesome.
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> That reminds me, I need to call Stephen tomorrow to follow up on it. I wasn't going to post anything about this until he confirmed he had it in his hands. As far as I know, he only was able to snag a very small order.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yeah, give him a call. I was going to post something about its availability in the cool season sub-forum, but I won't if you are going to do it.
Click to expand...

Thanks. Yeah, there were various people looking for it, and apparently there was a little bit left from their suppliers this year.

Just talked with them, and they confirmed a small amount has been ordered, and asked me to please follow up in the next week or two, as they have deliveries occurring all the time. I will call again next Friday, and if/when it's in, I'll post it in the thread I started in the cool-season forum.


----------



## social port

Making a lot progress on implementing my fall plan. Getting something done nearly every day. I've divided tasks into zones in my yard since I have to rely on irrigation to water in products.
Front side yard: 
4 lbs of 0-0-60
12 lbs of CarbonX
Air-8 at highest label rate
12 lbs .48% granular prodiamine
Front yard:
4 lbs of 0-0-60
12 lbs of CarbonX
No air-8 yet
14 lbs .48% granular prodiamine
Side yard roadside:
2 lbs of 0-0-60
12 lbs of CarbonX
Air-8 at highest label rate
13 lbs .48% granular prodiamine

My front yard app may have been challenged by a sudden downpour, but I am hoping for the best https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13524

One issue I just noticed:
I was aiming to apply prodiamine at about .65 lbs per acre, per @g-man et al.'s blitz. I was double-checking my rates this morning:
My prodiamine is 0.48% AI by weight in a 50 lbs bag of product. That is .0048 x 50 = .24 AI over, let's call it, 17k sq ft. That is .6 lbs AI/Acre, assuming my calculation processes are correct.
I went slightly heavier in weed-prone areas, so in the weediest spots in the lawn, I am OK to assume I was close enough to the .65 lbs/acre rate per the N blitz.
But then I noticed that the grassfactor mentioned .75lbs/acre as the low end of the range (( https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1907&start=20 ))
So my question: Should I apply a little more prodiamine, or will I be ok with the rate of .6 lbs AI/Acre?


----------



## g-man

The max yearly rate for kbg/prg is 1lb ai/acre. The max for TTTF is 1.5lb ai/acre.

In theory you can go up to those rate at once, but you do run the risk of runoff. The 0.65lb ai/acre recommendation still gives you some room for spring (1-0.65 = 0.35) with kbg/prg.

There are other strategies that you could use and adjust for your weather and grass type. You can split into 3 applications or heavier in spring than fall.

A thicker stand will also protect you, so don't sweat it.


----------



## social port

@g-man :thumbup: and thank you.


----------



## social port

Phase 1 of fall lawn care is done. All turf in the backyard is now at 2.5 inches. This evening I made prodiamine and carbonX apps in the backyard, with a slightly lower rate of prodiamine compared to the rest of the yard. Tomorrow morning (4:45am) I apply air-8 at max rate and then water for 2.3 hours. Done.

I was originally planning to do HA instead of AIR-8 for my first N-Ext app. I'm thinking that I will come back to all zones with HA as soon as rain is forecasted.

For now, it is time for phase 2: In the next couple of days, I'm going to dig out dead bermuda areas. The holes will be filled with compost, peat moss, and sand. I'm seeding raptor iii, cochise iv, and turbo. For one of the dead areas, I'm going to try all turbo to learn a little more about this cultivar.

Got to get moving, because it won't be long until the bluegrass will be growing faster than I can cut it. :mrgreen:


----------



## social port

Mowed the yard over the course of yesterday and this evening. Temps are better. Humidity is much lower. Grass is starting to recover a little. I'm happy that I put down the preM, fert, and air-8 when i did.

Starting digging up dead Bermuda areas. Found something concerning in a patch of Bermuda that has been dead for months. See that little root/rhizome thing sticking up? That is part of the Bermuda plant. 

It's alive!!


----------



## social port

Just a quick note on my use of Neptune Harvest kelp meal. The results are inconclusive, but I'm posting anyway. 
I have a tub of the kelp meal, and I applied it at label rate (approx) to areas that were stressed this summer.
Side yard, August 24, treated 

Side yard, August 24, untreated 


Side yard, sept 20, treated 


Side yard, sept 20, untreated



Front yard, problem area, treated August 24 


Front yard, problem area, sept 20, after treatment



Given what i see, I can't say that I'm impressed with the product. Perhaps a higher rate would have offered better results .


----------



## social port

One more thing this morning: this year, I thought I was in pretty good shape with regard to the bermuda. I unleashed an unbelievable, unforgiving assault last year. The truth is, the Bermuda has been quietly and consistently hitting back this year. A couple of jabs. A cross or two. Nothing major, just fairly consistent pepper. Here is a comparison photo between the end of last summer and the end of this summer. Brown areas represent Bermuda areas. 
Last year


This year




An improvement, I realize, but the goal is total eradication.
I have about 8 spots in the backyard , too. That is more than last year.

At some point, I'm just going to need to redo the entire side yard, fallowing for three months or something like that.


----------



## Chris LI

I'm seeing the parallel of your battle with Bermuda and my battle with Zoysia. Have you reseeded those areas, or do you need to wait until the temperatures begin to fall?


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> I'm seeing the parallel of your battle with Bermuda and my battle with Zoysia. Have you reseeded those areas, or do you need to wait until the temperatures begin to fall?


Yes, I think that there is a familial relationship between Bermuda and zoysia.
I haven't reseeded yet. I still have a few patches to dig up. I was planning to seed in a couple of days, but I am reconsidering: I found living roots in some of the Bermuda patches. I want to hit them with soul stealer rather than gly only, but that knocks seeding efforts back 14 days.

Since I am adding compost, peat, and sand to the bare areas, I am considering spraying soul stealer and seeding right away anyway. I don't know how much the fresh soil mixture would impact the herbicide restriction, so it would be a gamble. I'm ok with that.


----------



## pennstater2005

I forgot how bad last was for you with Bermuda. Your grass is so thick and lush those look like craters.


----------



## Budstl

@social port have you considered moving some kbg plugs into those bare spots or are you wanting to keep it tttf?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> I forgot how bad last was for you with Bermuda. Your grass is so thick and lush those look like craters.


Yeah, last year was a full assault. I never expected the bermuda to be so...subtle this year. Usually, when it attacks, it unleashes hooks and uppercuts. This year, it was all about jabs and a body shot or two.
Because I dug up some of the bare areas, the crater effect is enhanced. I'm hoping to dig the rest up today.

The process of digging actually led me to a different strategy for dealing with bermuda: I am wondering what would happen if I were to bypass the blades and stolons entirely. What would happen if I just dug up patches, and then hit the roots with soul stealer? Isn't it the roots that are so hard to kill? Hmmm...


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> @social port have you considered moving some kbg plugs into those bare spots or are you wanting to keep it tttf?


No, no plans to plug. I want to keep it as uniform as possible. LS1200 is no longer available, so I am seeding the bare areas with cochise iv, raptor iii, and turbo. I'm also going to seed turbo only in one of the bare areas to see what turbo looks like as a mono. :mrgreen:


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Have you read about the Benefits of Bermudagrass? I hear it's wonderful.


If you are still interested in the benefits of bermudagrass and would like to try some yourself, I'm currently running a special on stolons


----------



## social port

Finding more living plant material under dead patches of bermuda. I'm definitely hitting these root systems with soul stealer.

It will be mid-week before I am finished digging. Then I will wait a few days after I spray before I seed.


----------



## social port

Finished digging the Bermuda areas the other day. I think I will just gly and triclopyr the roots; adding Ornamec will be too risky for seeding, at least as I am estimating at the moment.
Still need to spray, fill the holes, and then seed.
Here is another Bermuda runner from the other day.



Mowed, trimmed, and edged today. Nothing terribly overgrown. Temps are moving back up. No rain in sight. I really thought I was done irrigating this year, but apparently not. Significant portions of my TTTF are on the ropes from heat and drought. I need to set up for a long watering in the morning.

I rarely show this area of my yard, but this is one of the areas that I reno'd from KY 31 last year. The TTTF is greener and healthier here because of the shade-a real advantage for growing TTTF in the south, IMO 


Here is a shot of the backyard



And the midnight, needing water and a break from summer



I haven't been keeping track of the numbers or anything, but overall it sure seems like I need to water the bluegrass considerably more than the TTTF. That makes a future KBG conversion more questionable.


----------



## pennstater2005

That corner area does look good. What is the latest you'll seed down there in Tennessee?


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That corner area does look good. What is the latest you'll seed down there in Tennessee?


Seeding could be pushed into mid to late October, but then temps become a concern and growth is slow. Anything past 9/20 is not optimal, as far as I can tell. Even if it isn't optimal, seeding past 9/20 turns out ok.


----------



## ksturfguy

social port said:


> I haven't been keeping track of the numbers or anything, but overall it sure seems like I need to water the bluegrass considerably more than the TTTF. That makes a future KBG conversion more questionable.


Which is really what we all know anyways right? The question always is how much more water does KBG need during the summer compared to TTTF to keep it looking good. I'm also not sure on exact numbers but I can tell you in my small test plot area the KBG was significantly worse then TTTF after summer got going. Not sure how much if that was heat related and how much of it was fungus related but TTTF definitely came out ahead. Now see how much and how quickly the KBG recovers.


----------



## social port

ksturfguy said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't been keeping track of the numbers or anything, but overall it sure seems like I need to water the bluegrass considerably more than the TTTF. That makes a future KBG conversion more questionable.
> 
> 
> 
> Which is really what we all know anyways right? The question always is how much more water does KBG need during the summer compared to TTTF to keep it looking good. I'm also not sure on exact numbers but I can tell you in my small test plot area the KBG was significantly worse then TTTF after summer got going. Not sure how much if that was heat related and how much of it was fungus related but TTTF definitely came out ahead. Now see how much and how quickly the KBG recovers.
Click to expand...

I suppose that is at least part of the question. I wanted to challenge the idea that bluegrass is tough to manage in the south.

I was going into the summer thinking that the KBG wouldn't need that much more water than the TTTF; but as I reflect on the summer, it seems to me that the bluegrass does need considerably more water to look its best. This is especially true the deeper that it gets into summer. During June and July, demand was minimal, and the bluegrass did very well.
But I am saying 'seems' and 'suppose,' when in this case, what we really need is a quantitative comparison.

Perhaps I should say that the bluegrass wants more water than I hoped it would.

All of that being said, it is still doing ok, and even looked great a few weeks ago. It is just being outperformed by the TTTF.


----------



## ksturfguy

Yeah I think your KBG still looks solid. A couple more weeks I'm sure it will look great again.


----------



## social port

Mowed the side yard and backyard today. I'm planning to hit my bare bermuda spots one more time tomorrow. Seeding the bare areas possibly Tuesday.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That corner area does look good. What is the latest you'll seed down there in Tennessee?
> 
> 
> 
> Seeding could be pushed into mid to late October, but then temps become a concern and growth is slow. Anything past 9/20 is not optimal, as far as I can tell. Even if it isn't optimal, seeding past 9/20 turns out ok.
Click to expand...

Anything past 9/2 is not optimal here. But I'm doing my spot seeding this week. Thankfully this wasn't an overseed year. Actually, I'm hoping overseeds won't be needed very often in the future. They're so labor intensive. And not just on the day of seeding, but for about 6 weeks after. So was the Spring Triv kill and reseed project. I still have areas left from that to overseed or spot seed. Nothing too large, though.


----------



## social port

@Green, I hear you. Overseeding is not fun. 
I'm surprised that you are spot seeding so late in the season. I don't recall reading anything about that in your journal, but I may have overlooked it.
Looks like I am going to be spot seeding tomorrow. It's pretty cool that we are going in on the same week.


----------



## Green

Yeah, it's in the journal somewhere. I wanted to finish before Oct. 1. Not happening. There are still a bunch of spots left to do. Not cool. Ryegrass seed to the rescue...main benefit of having some Ryegrass mixed into over 70% of the lawn areas. I still have one tough spot to fix in the TTTF/KBG lawn, though, which requires digging and leveling first. But I'll be using plugs as well as seed there.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Yeah, it's in the journal somewhere. I wanted to finish before Oct. 1. Not happening. There are still a bunch of spots left to do. Not cool. Ryegrass seed to the rescue...main benefit of having some Ryegrass mixed into over 70% of the lawn areas. I still have one tough spot to fix in the TTTF/KBG lawn, though, which requires digging and leveling first. But I'll be using plugs as well as seed there.


Yes, I read about the seeding plans in a more recent post in your thread. If it makes sense with regard to the weather, join me for seeding day. I'm getting ready to move forward now. It is so stinking hot outside that it is going to be a long afternoon. Still, seeding is one of my favorite activities.


----------



## social port

Ok, I've got the afternoon off, so it is lawn afternoon and evening for me :banana:

Yesterday, I mowed the front yard, and I made the final app to my bermuda areas. The mix was mostly gly and AS, though I had a little soul stealer left in the tank. I diluted it with a lot of water, so I am hoping that with the combination of the dilution and bringing in fresh soil/compost, I can avoid any herbicide effects on my seeding effort.

One cool thing before I start spreading compost: yesterday, I plucked a weed from a lawn that was recently overseeded. I accidentally pulled up some baby grass. I could be wrong, but it looks like the seed is still visible. I seem to recall that pennstater recently posted a similar photo.


----------



## social port

@LawnNerd, if you are out there, this one is for you. Hope you are doing well :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Total spots to reseed: 43
I previously dug up the spots. This afternoon, I needed to refill these areas. 
Added
Black Kow manure 




Then a layer of peat moss . To shake things up, I put shampoo on top of peat.


Then a layer of multi-purpose sand 


Now it is time to seed!
Push seed down a little. Then start watering. I'm probably going to need to hand-water this year.


----------



## social port

Seed is in the ground. Used a garden weasel for good measure.
Mixed turbo with Cochise iv and raptor iii. Also have a trial plot of all turbo.

Decided to put down a very small dose of carbon X in the backyard-for the bluegrass and the TTTF.

Will water in tomorrow morning and then begin watering the seed.

Worn out, but feeling good .


----------



## Green

Nice. I still haven't done more seeding yet. Very soon...


----------



## pennstater2005

That was me that put up a pic like that. I always pull some for the kiddos to see. Of course, I also had pictures of winter wheat growing from those seed heads. Not as cool.

Interesting fact regarding the winter wheat...I asked a farmer patient of mine that gave me the straw why his straw didn't sprout much wheat while the stuff in my front yard did.

He said most likely due to a bad combine or operator of combine. When they harvest it they only want the top for the grains. Then they'll go back and cut the straw. If they miss a lot of the grain or seed heads they end up in your straw and voila..... unwanted wheat growing.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> Nice. I still haven't done more seeding yet. Very soon...


Yeah, I was wondering if you were out in the lawn this evening. For me it was a long day in the lawn, but I was also thinking that you do stuff like I did today pretty regularly. Seems like you are always out there grinding away.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> That was me that put up a pic like that. I always pull some for the kiddos to see. Of course, I also had pictures of winter wheat growing from those seed heads. Not as cool.
> 
> Interesting fact regarding the winter wheat...I asked a farmer patient of mine that gave me the straw why his straw didn't sprout much wheat while the stuff in my front yard did.
> 
> He said most likely due to a bad combine or operator of combine. When they harvest it they only want the top for the grains. Then they'll go back and cut the straw. If they miss a lot of the grain or seed heads they end up in your straw and voila..... unwanted wheat growing.


So how is that wheat doing? Another member recently accidentally planted corn, and that led to speculation of aeration as a byproduct. I wonder if you might get lucky with the wheat and have an unintended side effect


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was me that put up a pic like that. I always pull some for the kiddos to see. Of course, I also had pictures of winter wheat growing from those seed heads. Not as cool.
> 
> Interesting fact regarding the winter wheat...I asked a farmer patient of mine that gave me the straw why his straw didn't sprout much wheat while the stuff in my front yard did.
> 
> He said most likely due to a bad combine or operator of combine. When they harvest it they only want the top for the grains. Then they'll go back and cut the straw. If they miss a lot of the grain or seed heads they end up in your straw and voila..... unwanted wheat growing.
> 
> 
> 
> So how is that wheat doing? Another member recently accidentally planted corn, and that led to speculation of aeration as a byproduct. I wonder if you might get lucky with the wheat and have an unintended side effect
Click to expand...

Wheat is doing great! I'm going to start cutting and baling it soon in the hopes of selling mini bales to the locals for fall decoration purposes. Should get one more cutting in before the frost...fingers crossed.


----------



## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That was me that put up a pic like that. I always pull some for the kiddos to see. Of course, I also had pictures of winter wheat growing from those seed heads. Not as cool.
> 
> Interesting fact regarding the winter wheat...I asked a farmer patient of mine that gave me the straw why his straw didn't sprout much wheat while the stuff in my front yard did.
> 
> He said most likely due to a bad combine or operator of combine. When they harvest it they only want the top for the grains. Then they'll go back and cut the straw. If they miss a lot of the grain or seed heads they end up in your straw and voila..... unwanted wheat growing.
> 
> 
> 
> So how is that wheat doing? Another member recently accidentally planted corn, and that led to speculation of aeration as a byproduct. I wonder if you might get lucky with the wheat and have an unintended side effect
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wheat is doing great! I'm going to start cutting and baling it soon in the hopes of selling mini bales to the locals for fall decoration purposes. Should get one more cutting in before the frost...fingers crossed.
Click to expand...

I can't believe frost is already under discussion. I haven't even started fall down here in Tenn. I just assumed that it has been hot in Pennsylvania as well.


----------



## pennstater2005

social port said:


> pennstater2005 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> So how is that wheat doing? Another member recently accidentally planted corn, and that led to speculation of aeration as a byproduct. I wonder if you might get lucky with the wheat and have an unintended side effect
> 
> 
> 
> Wheat is doing great! I'm going to start cutting and baling it soon in the hopes of selling mini bales to the locals for fall decoration purposes. Should get one more cutting in before the frost...fingers crossed.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I can't believe frost is already under discussion. I haven't even started fall down here in Tenn. I just assumed that it has been hot in Pennsylvania as well.
Click to expand...

Oh it was hot for October here today. But Friday high is 59 with lows around 39.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice. I still haven't done more seeding yet. Very soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I was wondering if you were out in the lawn this evening. For me it was a long day in the lawn, but I was also thinking that you do stuff like I did today pretty regularly. Seems like you are always out there grinding away.
Click to expand...

I finally seeded the spots today. I try not to ever seed after 10/2, because it tends not to work well.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice. I still haven't done more seeding yet. Very soon...
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I was wondering if you were out in the lawn this evening. For me it was a long day in the lawn, but I was also thinking that you do stuff like I did today pretty regularly. Seems like you are always out there grinding away.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I finally seeded the spots today. I try not to ever seed after 10/2, because it tends not to work well.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I just read! Congrats, man! Best moments of the whole year. Fingers crossed for a favorable outcome. At the very least, one can hope for a full payoff next spring, right?


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Yeah, I just read! Congrats, man! Best moments of the whole year. Fingers crossed for a favorable outcome. At the very least, one can hope for a full payoff next spring, right?


Yup. It's a gamble. Almost as bad as you seeding in Nov. But it does explode in Spring. Last year, I seeded the low-input area around this same time (2K + seeded area), and it didn't look great at the start of Winter, but by May it was great. I had no idea there was that much grass just sitting there all Winter.


----------



## Budstl

What's your weather like these days? We are in the low 70s. 20 degree difference from yesterday. It feels so good. What's your future plans with the kbg area?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I just read! Congrats, man! Best moments of the whole year. Fingers crossed for a favorable outcome. At the very least, one can hope for a full payoff next spring, right?
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. It's a gamble. Almost as bad as you seeding in Nov. But it does explode in Spring. Last year, I seeded the low-input area around this same time (2K + seeded area), and it didn't look great at the start of Winter, but by May it was great. I had no idea there was that much grass just sitting there all Winter.
Click to expand...

Green, that matches my experiences perfectly. When my late seeding efforts are disappointing going into winter, the grass takes off in spring and looks very nice within several months.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> What's your weather like these days? We are in the low 70s. 20 degree difference from yesterday. It feels so good. What's your future plans with the kbg area?


The numbers don't do the weather justice. Relentless heat and dry as a desert. All day. Everyday. 
We have had numerous days of record highs this month.
The temp break is finally only a couple of days away. It is going to go from a high of 97 to a high of something like 74 in 1-2 days. Sounds like you are currently experiencing a similar change. It is time for grass season. I say enjoy it because it will be gone in no time.

I'm back-and-forth on the bluegrass. Right now, I'm keeping things as they are with no plans for reno next year. I love my TTTF, and that is where I am leaning at the moment. That will probably be different in a month or so.

I am better at spotting when TTTF needs water, and it tolerates lack of water better than the bluegrass. Those are important considerations, at least at the moment. 
I need to install an irrigation system before I do a KBG reno.


----------



## Budstl

Your tttf is looking good too. I can't decide if i want to do a kbg mono or tttf/kbg. Need to correct soil deficiency first. I can't ever make up my mind. I don't want to end up a serial renovator. The kbg repairability is awesome though. Helps out with the dog spots.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Your tttf is looking good too. I can't decide if i want to do a kbg mono or tttf/kbg. Need to correct soil deficiency first. I can't ever make up my mind. I don't want to end up a serial renovator. The kbg repairability is awesome though. Helps out with the dog spots.


I don't want to do a ton of reno's either, but there is probably little hope for me. I've always got my mind on something that I don't have.

TTTF KBG combo makes all the sense in the world. That gives you the best of both worlds, and I would imagine that they compliment one another well, especially if you get some of the thin-bladed TTTF.

But personally, there is something about a monoculture that is enticing. I'm at the point where I've decided that all future reno's will be mono's.


----------



## social port

As I've been watering the seeded areas, I've noticed a lot of seed coming out from under the sand. That is a lot of seed sitting on the surface. Perhaps it was a matter of settling. I didn't like what I was seeing, so I hit all of the seeded areas with the garden weasel again today to get the seed underneath the surface.

It got to 99 degrees today. Apparently, there have been 98 days at 90 or above this year. Far more than usual. My seed is staying moist, and I see almost no disease, so all is well.


----------



## Budstl

Too hot @social port. What's your winters like? Speaking of monostands, what tttf culitvar would you like to use?


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Too hot @social port.


You're telling me. I've been noticing that even some of the bermuda in the area is checking out from the heat and lack of rain.


Budstl said:


> What's your winters like?


I would say pretty mild compared to the Northeast and even mid-Atlantic. Mild compared to the midwest as well. It gets cold, but getting down to the teens is newsworthy. It usually doesn't last very long when it does. Winters are usually pretty wet, and we have an occasional snow (maybe 2-5 times, with the snow being gone in 3 days or less).


Budstl said:


> Speaking of monostands, what tttf culitvar would you like to use?


good question, and something that I will geek out over for the next couple of years. I've already looked into it some, but no real winners yet. It pretty much has to be a newer cultivar because supplies of the older 'newer' stuff are getting low. I can say that I won't be using raptor iii. I do have one cultivar in my current mix that I really like, but I don't know if it is turbo or ls 1200. But the latter is no longer available, and turbo will be out the door soon as well. I am currently doing a small patch of mono turbo as a test. I've also got my eye on the mixes used by Dr English and Fort. Those lawns came out really well, and it would be cool to isolate the cultivar that makes them shine.


----------



## Budstl

Couldn't agree more with their two lawns. I believe drenglish add kbg. I think I'd do 4th millennium for a fescue mono.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Couldn't agree more with their two lawns. I believe drenglish add kbg. I think I'd do 4th millennium for a fescue mono.


Believe that you are correct about drenglish adding that kbg. And from his recent update, it still looks so good.

My target is jaw-dropping color, blade width, BP disease resistance, and then drought tolerance. I don't even think about the other criteria such as spring green-up, seedling vigor, traffic stress etc.

That is one thing that I like about my current TTTF mix. I can maintain a really good color for the most part and it recovers exceptionally well from disease. I would like to reduce the blade width on some of the cultivars.


----------



## Chris LI

Have you considered Spyder LS? I'm not sure of the ratings for your area, but I purchased about a pallet full over 2-3 years for work, and was very happy with it. I bought I for it's salt tolerance, but it has a nice overall appearance, with great color (a little blueish) and reasonable blade width. I think I posted a photo of it awhile back in my journal with some comments. Basically, it got heavily abused and still looked good.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> Have you considered Spyder LS? I'm not sure of the ratings for your area, but I purchased about a pallet full over 2-3 years for work, and was very happy with it. I bought I for it's salt tolerance, but it has a nice overall appearance, with great color (a little blueish) and reasonable blade width. I think I posted a photo of it awhile back in my journal with some comments. Basically, it got heavily abused and still looked good.


Thanks for that suggestion, Chris. You are probably referencing this post? I'm familiar with the cultivar name, but I haven't looked into it very much. I'll dig some more. You had me a blue-ish tint 
I think that, before I make a final decision, I will bring in 8 or so final candidates and give them a trial run for a year or two. Then I can select the one that works best in my yard.


----------



## social port

Got in a quick mow of the backyard this evening. No trimming. Nothing fancy. Just trying to stay ahead of the growth from recent fert apps. Starting to feel like grass season weather.

Sing to me Midnight. Show me your true colors 


The three way KBG is dense 


And the TTTF is beginning to show its true colors. Won't be long before I'm in grass heaven . It only got up to 86 today!


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> Have you considered Spyder LS? I'm not sure of the ratings for your area, but I purchased about a pallet full over 2-3 years for work, and was very happy with it. I bought I for it's salt tolerance, but it has a nice overall appearance, with great color (a little blueish) and reasonable blade width. I think I posted a photo of it awhile back in my journal with some comments. Basically, it got heavily abused and still looked good.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for that suggestion, Chris. You are probably referencing this post? I'm familiar with the cultivar name, but I haven't looked into it very much. I'll dig some more. You had me a blue-ish tint
> I think that, before I make a final decision, I will bring in 8 or so final candidates and give them a trial run for a year or two. Then I can select the one that works best in my yard.
Click to expand...

Thanks for doing the work to look it up! I'm a little under the weather today and got lazy (I probably shouldn't use that excuse since I accomplished some lawn goals today :mrgreen:...will post in journal later.) I'm not kidding about the blueish tint, but I did hope to hook you. 
If I wasn't striving for a kbg lawn, Spyder LS would be #1 on my list for a TTTF mono/kbg imposter.
Unfortunately, my local dealer for work no longer carries Spyder LS this year. They switched to Regenerate and Titanium 2 LS. I know they have good ratings, but the proof is in the pudding.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> If I wasn't striving for a kbg lawn, Spyder LS would be #1 on my list for a TTTF mono/kbg imposter.


OK, that means that Spyder is a must-try cultivar for me. Cool. :mrgreen: 


Chris LI said:


> They switched to Regenerate and Titanium 2 LS. I know they have good ratings, but the proof is in the pudding.


So, is that what you are using at the moment? Those are good cultivars, on paper at least. It would be neat to see how they compare to your top pick in Spyder.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I wasn't striving for a kbg lawn, Spyder LS would be #1 on my list for a TTTF mono/kbg imposter.
> 
> 
> 
> OK, that means that Spyder is a must-try cultivar for me. Cool. :mrgreen:
> 
> 
> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> They switched to Regenerate and Titanium 2 LS. I know they have good ratings, but the proof is in the pudding.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, is that what you are using at the moment? Those are good cultivars, on paper at least. It would be neat to see how they compare to your top pick in Spyder.
Click to expand...

I haven't used either of them yet, but I just had a bomb dropped on me at work about "growing grass" in a particular area that I would consider to be a challenge. I'll let you know if wind up using them.


----------



## Green

I've used some Titanium 2LS - very limited amounts, but as far as I'm concerned, it's at least as good Firecracker LS. The blades might be finer, but I don't really know since I have everything mixed together.


----------



## JDgreen18

I've had good results with both Regenerate and Titanium 2 LS. I used them in a tttf kbg reno I did and they both are In My mixes of the renos I did this year. Unfortunately I never used them alone but part of a mix of cultivars.

Lawn is looking lush...looks like a carpet, I want to come lay on it lol.


----------



## social port

Oh my, how I love cultivar talk on a Saturday morning  
I think I am going to make a list of top contenders for possible mono.

KBG: 
Bluenote
Midnight
Mazama

TTTF:
Spyder LS
4th Millennium
Turbo RZ or Paramont (ls1200 replacement)
Titanium 2 LS

I've always wanted to try Firecracker, Speedway, and Traverse II, but I want to target these newer varieties.


----------



## social port

I was unrealistically hoping for germination today, but nothing yet. Still too early.
Rain is finally moving into the area tomorrow. I don't trust the sand to keep the seed safe, so I am hoping to spread some m-binder before the day is over.


----------



## social port

Spread some m-binder today on my bare areas, and I inhaled the rest  
In anticipation of rain, applied carbon X at the high rate. That exhausts my supply for now, but I may get more. I am hoping to source some milorganite.
I am planning to apply air-8 and RGS or humid 12 in the next day or two


----------



## Green

social port said:


> I've always wanted to try Firecracker, Speedway, and Traverse II, but I want to target these newer varieties.


Firecracker SLS is fairly new. I use it now to replace Firecracker LS. Should be very similar, but seems to often score better in NTEP than the LS did.


----------



## JDgreen18

social port said:


> Oh my, how I love cultivar talk on a Saturday morning
> I think I am going to make a list of top contenders for possible mono.
> 
> KBG:
> Bluenote
> Midnight
> Mazama
> 
> TTTF:
> Spyder LS
> 4th Millennium
> Turbo RZ or Paramont (ls1200 replacement)
> Titanium 2 LS
> 
> I've always wanted to try Firecracker, Speedway, and Traverse II, but I want to target these newer varieties.


You want to do a mono of the kbg or tttf? I have used mazama bluebank and bewitched this spring and fall reno. Spring reno was withed with the sss shade blend 
Rowdy valkyrie LS Titanium 2LS and GTO.
Fall reno has the same as above but the ss1000 blend tttf was added which has
Regenerate 4th Millennium Raptorlll and Amity.
Both renos came out good but seems like the fall reno progressed more quickly. It also imo looks better. I also feel having the warm soil temps in the fall seems to have better results.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wanted to try Firecracker, Speedway, and Traverse II, but I want to target these newer varieties.
> 
> 
> 
> Firecracker SLS is fairly new. I use it now to replace Firecracker LS. Should be very similar, but seems to often score better in NTEP than the LS did.
Click to expand...

Yes, I remember reading that now from your thread. I was thinking at vnephologist ran into some major disease issues with a Firecracker mono (not sure if it was LS or SLS), but I haven't been able to find the posts. But he has done some work with a 4 Millennium mono as well as Firecracker. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=5816 https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1001


----------



## social port

JDgreen18 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh my, how I love cultivar talk on a Saturday morning
> I think I am going to make a list of top contenders for possible mono.
> 
> KBG:
> Bluenote
> Midnight
> Mazama
> 
> TTTF:
> Spyder LS
> 4th Millennium
> Turbo RZ or Paramont (ls1200 replacement)
> Titanium 2 LS
> 
> I've always wanted to try Firecracker, Speedway, and Traverse II, but I want to target these newer varieties.
> 
> 
> 
> You want to do a mono of the kbg or tttf? I have used mazama bluebank and bewitched this spring and fall reno. Spring reno was withed with the sss shade blend
> Rowdy valkyrie LS Titanium 2LS and GTO.
> Fall reno has the same as above but the ss1000 blend tttf was added which has
> Regenerate 4th Millennium Raptorlll and Amity.
> Both renos came out good but seems like the fall reno progressed more quickly. It also imo looks better. I also feel having the warm soil temps in the fall seems to have better results.
Click to expand...

I haven't made up my mind. I'm doing either a KBG mono or a TTTF mono. But I will do the reno in sections (about 4.5k at a time), and I'm not sure when it will be (could still be a couple of years away).


JDgreen18 said:


> Both renos came out good but seems like the fall reno progressed more quickly. It also imo looks better.


So, just to make sure I have tracked everything correctly, does that mean that you like your fall TTTF blend better than the other blends?


----------



## JDgreen18

@social port in comparing tttf and kbg mixes yes. This does not include my kbg reno from last fall. I think that came out fantastic a year later. It really does take a while for kbg to really shine. My plan is to keep my backyard all kbg and my front and down the driveway tttf and kbg.


----------



## social port

JDgreen18 said:


> @social port in comparing tttf and kbg mixes yes. This does not include my kbg reno from last fall. I think that came out fantastic a year later. It really does take a while for kbg to really shine. My plan is to keep my backyard all kbg and my front and down the driveway tttf and kbg.


Cool, that is good to know. And that is a good point: It is hard to compare newly established TTTF with newly-established KBG. It takes a long time to actually see what you have in the bluegrass; I think that TTTF changes over time as well.


----------



## social port

No germination.
Applied air-8 to front lawn -- the zone I missed during the first round of air-8 apps.
Applied RGS to the entire lawn. I overapplied with the Ortho sprayer. I'm not worried, but I wanted to make a note in case something goes south in a few days.
Still no rain. Have been watering the reseed areas. 
The rain needs to come to let the carbon x, air-8, and RGS soak into the soil.
Received my soil test results on Friday. I'm going to post in the soil fertility sub-forum.


----------



## Stuofsci02

Your Friday night mow looks great!


----------



## social port

Stuofsci02 said:


> Your Friday night mow looks great!


Thanks. It's already time to mow again. I'm hoping a recent app of carbon x and some rain push it even further.


----------



## Stuofsci02

Yep.. I know the feeling. My unregulated part of my yard is growing 1/2 to 3/4" per day...


----------



## social port

Major downpours last night. The m-binder did a great job. It was the heaviest rain I've seen all year, and my seed is just fine. 
I saw some little babies this morning. 


And these are all baby Turbo's



Seed was down Tuesday night, but I didn't start watering until Wednesday. I'm calling germination at day 5.


----------



## social port

Continuing to see germination, but nowhere near even coverage yet.
Cut the backyard this evening. The bluegrass was slightly overgrown. The TTTF was at about the right height. I think my bluegrass has grown faster than my TTTF all year; it certainly is growing faster now.

I ordered some AMS from my co-op today. None in stock, if you can believe that! Less than 11 bucks for 50lb bag (also, if you can believe that)!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

No matter how many times I see grass seed germination I always enjoy the look of those new green blades. Yes I am crazy.


----------



## JDgreen18

SNOWBOB11 said:


> No matter how many times I see grass seed germination I always enjoy the look of those new green blades. Yes I am crazy.


We all have this sickness...congrats on being a new papa @social port....again lol


----------



## pennstater2005

M-binder is good stuff.


----------



## social port

JDgreen18 said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 1570596807[/url] user_id=578]
> No matter how many times I see grass seed germination I always enjoy the look of those new green blades. Yes I am crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> We all have this sickness...congrats on being a new papa @social port....again lol
Click to expand...




SNOWBOB11 said:


> No matter how many times I see grass seed germination I always enjoy the look of those new green blades. Yes I am crazy.





pennstater2005 said:


> M-binder is good stuff.


Yes, I am impressed with the m-binder this year. I still like turbo tack better because it is easier for me to spread. 
Here's another shot or two for Snowbob...or, should I say for all of us loonies  



Dang! I should have taken a close-up.

Carbon x and the rain are helping my grass recover. This is the 2.5 TTTF transitioning into the Midnight 


I'm hoping to mow the front yard today. The Gravely will not start, so everything is push mow at the moment.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Hogan's should have some available in 1-2 weeks. :mrgreen:


I called today. Stephen said they've had it (a small quantity) for about a week and a half now. They've sold around 25% of it so far. I'll post it on the main forum tonight so the people looking for a little bit of it can get in on the action tomorrow, Friday, or next week.


----------



## social port

@Green :thumbup:


----------



## social port

Mowed the front lawn this evening. 
Spot-sprayed wbg cco with AMS and NIS. Mostly just a few patches of clover. I do have a lot of wild garlic right now, but they are hard to spot after a mow.


----------



## Green

@social port

More from what we discussed yesterday: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-303

Hybrids: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kpjawJDElVoJ:https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-sci-super-lawn28-2009sep28-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d


----------



## social port

Green said:


> @social port
> 
> More from what we discussed yesterday: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-303
> 
> Hybrids: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kpjawJDElVoJ:https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-sci-super-lawn28-2009sep28-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d


Thanks, Green. I really enjoyed the second article. I think I am going to look into this guy's work a little more. Also, I am surprised by the length of abstracts in this field!


----------



## social port

Started the fall blitz for the bluegrass today. I will be using AS. 
I messed up my app a little. I didn't plan, so I was working from memory, and I overestimated the square footage. Net effect is that the Midnight got more N than the three-way. I will compensate for that with the next app on Friday. I watered after application.

I also mowed my front yard again today. When I mowed Wednesday, the cut wasn't the best, so today I cleaned under the mower to get better suction. I also need to sharpen my blade.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> @social port
> 
> More from what we discussed yesterday: https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-10-303
> 
> Hybrids: https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:kpjawJDElVoJ:https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-sci-super-lawn28-2009sep28-story.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-b-1-d
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Green. I really enjoyed the second article. I think I am going to look into this guy's work a little more. Also, I am surprised by the length of abstracts in this field!
Click to expand...

Let me know what you find. I looked briefly but didn't find much.


----------



## social port

I've got a problem in my front lawn. I'm not sure exactly what is going on.
My neighbor recently did an overseed, and I noticed that certain areas of his lawn were thinning and turning yellow-tan. I thought it might be a water issue.
Today I noticed that it is spreading into my lawn. This seems sudden. 
I checked for grubs. 
I don't think this is a subsurface rock issue. My grass has been doing just fine. 
I've narrowed it down to three possibilities. One, my neighbor discharged a lot of clippings into my lawn when he did his Overseed. Perhaps the grass just couldn't handle the excess. Two, this is a disease. But I don't know what it is. With this much damage, I would expect lesions to be plentiful, but it takes some time to spot them. Three, he is mowing into my yard with a dull blade. There is a lot of ripping evident in the photos.

Here is what most the front front yard looks like-doing just fine 


But this spot that borders my neighbor has the issue



Whatever it is, it is destructive 








I think disease is the most likely explanation. I tried to photograph the few lesions I could find. 








Does this pattern look familiar to anyone?


----------



## Green

I would keep an eye on that disease. It looks like some type of leaf spot, maybe. I would look through tgreen's posts to make sure it's not gray leaf spot. He kept saying it doesn't affect mature fescue, but never know.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

That does look like disease. I agree with green it looks like LS. If it were me I think I'd spray a fungicide. Waiting might make it spread. I'd also explain to my neighbor of all the benefits of a mulching mower.


----------



## social port

thanks, @Green and @SNOWBOB11.
Typically, my fescue shrugs off leaf spot. GLS came to mind, but I didn't like that possibility now that the summer weather is over.
I reviewed tgreen's video, and I think that what I am seeing matches well with GLS. Although GLS is associated with temperatures in the 82-90F range, he does mention that it may still be active in cooler weather. I think I am going to treat. That will be a first.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> This is the 2.5 TTTF transitioning into the Midnight


Oooh! Let's play "guess the dividing line".

Is this it?


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is the 2.5 TTTF transitioning into the Midnight
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oooh! Let's play "guess the dividing line".
> 
> Is this it?
Click to expand...

 :lol: awesome, Green. 
The photo distorts the perspective. 
Take a look at this. One of these (poorly drawn) lines is the correct border.


----------



## Green

I'm conflicted between the middle and far line.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I'm conflicted between the middle and far line.


It is the far line. It is tough to see. Color is very close. The blade width makes the transition more apparent when walking through the area.
The picture doesn't capture it, but as of right now, the TTTF is still darker than the midnight. The midnight has a broader range of green.


----------



## social port

Been very active in the lawn. It has been over two weeks since seed down in my repair areas. Modest outcome. I've already reseeded areas. I won't be using sand again when reseeding. I should have used compost and peat only, and then brought sand in later to help bring the spot level with the rest of the lawn.

I've been mowing the KBG about every 3-4 days. TTTF every 4-6 days.

Made my second Fall blitz app to the KBG yesterday (Friday 10/18). I'm using 3 lbs of AMS for a little over 1300 sq ft.

Temps are all over the place, including several frosts. That is supposed to slow down fungus (GLS or LS), so I haven't treated the disease yet. Temps are going back up, so I think I am going to bite the bullet today by treating it, as much as I don't want to. I'm using Azoxy, as it offers control over LS and GLS.

Still very little precipitation, so there are a few areas that are still showing signs of drought stress


----------



## Budstl

You have any diesease on the kbg? Have you done any iron apps to it? From the pics above the kbg is looking good. We'll get ya converted to a full kbg reno in the future.


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> You have any diesease on the kbg? Have you done any iron apps to it? From the pics above the kbg is looking good. We'll get ya converted to a full kbg reno in the future.


No disease on the KBG--just the TTTF. I take your point. 
I am doing only ammonium sulfate. I thought about putting down an iron app, but I am afraid that will set a standard in my mind that I cannot maintain for the majority of the year. 
I am thinking about it, though.


----------



## social port

Applied second round of WBGCCO + AS to clover and a few other weeds (including wild garlic). I was able to achieve impressive control with the first round. Most of it was already knocked out.

Mowed backyard with pushmower.

Applied lime at 12lbs/k to the entire lawn except for the KBG areas. This plan is per my soil test results https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=14071
I have decided that lime is my favorite product to apply. You get to run it heavy. It is easy to track with the eye. Measurements don't have to be perfect. And you don't need to water it in. Yeah, I like it. I think I would also like that granular HA that Connor Ward is so fond of using.

I have applied azoxystrobin to part of my side yard. I also applied some to my front yard, which had yellowish spots for most of the winter last year. I am already seeing them again this year, and I am just tired of it. I really, really, really did not want to apply fungicide, but now that it is done I think it was the best decision.

I am planning for a .5 app of N via AMS to my TTTF in the next week or two. That is also per my soil test results. I still have some humic acid to apply.

Continuing with my blitz apps every Friday.


----------



## social port

Mowed side yard and front yard yesterday. Finally got the Gravely working again. It needed a new battery. I've been thinking about getting a new mower for most of this year and at this point, I've pretty well decided that I will get a different mower this spring. The only thing I will miss about the Gravely is my TLF sticker that is placed on its body.

Today, we had the absolute best day ever for doing apps. Slow, consistent rainfall -- rain drips, really, at a low rate with very little disturbance. It was amazing!

So, I took advantage of the weather.
Applied 0.5 lbs/k of AMS to my TTTF (per my soil test results, thanks g-man)
Applied 0.5 lbs/k of AMS to my KBG (per the fall blitz)
Applied expired Ironite at the bag rate (3lbs/k) to the TTTF in the backyard and to my KBG
Applied AIR-8 at 7oz/k to the bluegrass and to the front slopes in my front yard
Applied Humic -12/OrganicLiquid humic acid at 7oz/k to the entire yard
Applied shampoo at 3oz/k to the KBG and to the slopes in the front yard (thanks to Green for indirectly lending credibility to the idea of a fall/winter shampoo app)


----------



## social port

Time for a few updates.
Two inches of rain has helped most of the grass recover from summer. It has been overcast for several days now. My lawn doesn't look bad, but I think it could look a lot better.

I have seen very little change in disease after the azoxy app. The disease doesn't seem to be spreading at the moment, but the grass still looks like it is affected. I also have other diseases in the lawn. Rust and LS are the best candidates.

My spot seeding is coming along. I am going to add more seed to a few places. Here are some of the successful areas 




Today, I did edging, trimming, and mowing for the entire lawn. 
My front lawn is looking ok, but it looks better in the photo than in person 


The midnight looks good in the picture, but it is more affected by disease now than it was during the summer.



There is substantial yellowing in some of my short cut TTTF in the backyard. Again, it looked better during some of the summer months







The three-way bluegrass mix is looking ok, too, but like the midnight, it appears to be struggling with disease.



I'm definitely seeing some lateral growth in the bluegrass, so bare spots are beginning to disappear. 
I will continue with the fall blitz. I think I have one more app for my TTTF as well before the season is over.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Everything looks good but the midnight area seems to have great color. I wonder why you'd be seeing more disease pressure now than in the summer?


----------



## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Everything looks good but the midnight area seems to have great color. I wonder why you'd be seeing more disease pressure now than in the summer?


I am a little dumbfounded on the matter. It is really counterintuitive.
My best guess is that it is a combination of several days of rain/consistent dampness coupled with a 4 day period with very little sunlight.

Yesterday while I was mowing, I was seriously considering taking all of my fescue down to 3 inches to help prevent these types of infections. But then, when I mowed the fescue in my backyard (which stays at 2.5 inches), I noticed more of the same problem; so now I am not very confident that a HOC change would help the situation.


----------



## social port

Mowed the entire yard today. Cold temps have reduced rate of growth, but with plenty of highs in the 50s and 60s, I still have an active and colorful lawn. 
Clippings were very short today. I mowed all of my reseed sections as well. 
Did not do my fall blitz app on Friday due to excess moisture recently. I'm waiting for things to dry up some before my next app-probably in a couple of days.

Bare spots in the bluegrass have filled in quite a bit, but there is still room to grow. 


The aggressive disease in the front yard is on hold. Lesions are gone. Grass is still wilting some, and there is a subtle yellowing to the area. I think cold temps had more of an impact than the fungicide.

I believe temps went down to 27 this morning. I would say that the first frost has come and gone. I expect things to be balmy again in the next two weeks. We'll see.


----------



## Mark B

Do you think the lime you recently put down might be a contributing factor to the yellowing that you are seeing?


----------



## social port

TheWhiteWizard said:


> Do you think the lime you recently put down might be a contributing factor to the yellowing that you are seeing?


Thanks for the thought. I can't say for sure. I don't know what the effects of a heavy lime dose would be.

I added a lot of things in a short amount of time before things went slightly south for the fescue (lime, fertilizer, humic, iron ), but I was very, very close to the intended rate for every app.


----------



## Mark B

Ridgerunner mentioned to me in my soil test thread in June that lime does create yellowing, whcih correlates with reduced photosynthesis. 
High pH also interferes with iron uptake.

The yellowing appears to be at the tips, although I can't be sure from the photos. Would lime burn/yellow the tips of the grass if it sat there long enough? 
Whatever happens I'm sure the yellowing will resolve and you'll forget it ever happened in short order.  
On a side note, your lawn looks good, I enjoy keeping up with what you do there 

The following is an interesting short read with a few pics from a sports turf online magazine showing how lines painted on a sports field created yellowing. I think this happened over time so possibly a bit different to your case.
sturf.lib.msu.edu › articlePDF
Q&A Yellow grass. 
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw2bLpQ-JTzxPIhU3JcCqlzY


----------



## social port

TheWhiteWizard said:


> Ridgerunner mentioned to me in my soil test thread in June that lime does create yellowing, whcih correlates with reduced photosynthesis.
> High pH also interferes with iron uptake.
> 
> The yellowing appears to be at the tips, although I can't be sure from the photos. Would lime burn/yellow the tips of the grass if it sat there long enough?
> Whatever happens I'm sure the yellowing will resolve and you'll forget it ever happened in short order.
> On a side note, your lawn looks good, I enjoy keeping up with what you do there
> 
> The following is an interesting short read with a few pics from a sports turf online magazine showing how lines painted on a sports field created yellowing. I think this happened over time so possibly a bit different to your case.
> sturf.lib.msu.edu › articlePDF
> Q&A Yellow grass.
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...WMAN6BAgHEAE&usg=AOvVaw2bLpQ-JTzxPIhU3JcCqlzY


Man, thanks for the kind words!
I think you could be circling the right line of questions, as this is starting to add up. The lime that I applied sat on the grass for 3 days before it was watered in. I've never used lime before, and I did not know it could cause burn if left on the grass.


----------



## social port

In anticipation of rain today, I applied 0.5 lbs N via AMS to the bluegrass last night.
My whizz spreader stopped working, and I was in a hurry (dark outside and late in the night). 
I applied by hand. Hopefully, there won't be any burning.


----------



## Green

social port said:


> My whizz spreader stopped working, and I was in a hurry (dark outside and late in the night).
> I applied by hand.


I clogged mine (second use ever) with humic acid power. It jammed up. I think it's starting to move again. Not sure if you can spray water into it or not. Maybe compressed air is better.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> My whizz spreader stopped working, and I was in a hurry (dark outside and late in the night).
> I applied by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> I clogged mine (second use ever) with humic acid power. It jammed up. I think it's starting to move again. Not sure if you can spray water into it or not. Maybe compressed air is better.
Click to expand...

Hey, that would be nice. I'd much rather have a tool that just needs some cleaning. With a hit-or-miss operation pattern over the last several months, I have been thinking that the whizz is on its way out.

I do hose mine down, but I'm not sure that it is safe.

The next time I'm out, I will have a look for a clog somewhere.


----------



## Chris LI

social port said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> My whizz spreader stopped working, and I was in a hurry (dark outside and late in the night).
> I applied by hand.
> 
> 
> 
> I clogged mine (second use ever) with humic acid power. It jammed up. I think it's starting to move again. Not sure if you can spray water into it or not. Maybe compressed air is better.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Hey, that would be nice. I'd much rather have a tool that just needs some cleaning. With a hit-or-miss operation pattern over the last several months, I have been thinking that the whizz is on its way out.
> 
> I do hose mine down, but I'm not sure that it is safe.
> 
> The next time I'm out, I will have a look for a clog somewhere.
Click to expand...

If you decide to replace it, I've had a Scotts Handygreen II that's been reliable for years, and is easy to wash out.


----------



## social port

Chris LI said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> I clogged mine (second use ever) with humic acid power. It jammed up. I think it's starting to move again. Not sure if you can spray water into it or not. Maybe compressed air is better.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, that would be nice. I'd much rather have a tool that just needs some cleaning. With a hit-or-miss operation pattern over the last several months, I have been thinking that the whizz is on its way out.
> 
> I do hose mine down, but I'm not sure that it is safe.
> 
> The next time I'm out, I will have a look for a clog somewhere.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> If you decide to replace it, I've had a Scotts Handygreen II that's been reliable for years, and is easy to wash out.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'm going to pick one up. I've been wanting a back-up anyway, and I have been unsure about which one to buy.


----------



## social port

It is lawn time again in Tennessee.
I mowed for the first time this season about two weeks ago.
I mowed again today. It was already overgrown. Both the bluegrass and fescue are already growing at a decent rate.

Applied dithiopyr (.25%??) at 3 lbs (product)/k. My application is later than desired, but that is just how the timing worked out.

I'm applying Carbon-X in 2-3 weeks. Milo or similar product for my second spring app. Chris LI's also made me interested in bioplex.

Weed pressure is moderate, with broadleaf mostly. I will wait to see what kind of effect my dithiopyr has, and then bring out a 3-way or triclopyr over the next month.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

2nd mow already? I just got finished shoveling 12" snow off the driveway :bd: haha. Can't believe the season is getting started already. Seriously though I'm interested to see how you like carbon x this year and how your bluegrass and TTTF respond to it. I haven't heard of bio plex before. I need to check it out.


----------



## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> 2nd mow already? I just got finished shoveling 12" snow off the driveway :bd: haha. Can't believe the season is getting started already. Seriously though I'm interested to see how you like carbon x this year and how your bluegrass and TTTF respond to it. I haven't heard of bio plex before. I need to check it out.


Hang in there, SnowBob!  You'll be back in business soon. 
I used Carbon X last year and was really happy with it. Very nice color response. I am planning for a long-term commitment to it.


----------



## Green

I heard forsythia bloomed in TN recently! Grass must be fairly green now.

Here, we are just getting the first hint of yellow on the forsythia. Probably 4-6 weeks until bloom. Like I always say, your area is offset by about 4 weeks from ours in terms of temps.

I love this time of year.

Our Winter (hey, Winter isn't over yet!) was, in Jan and Feb in terms of temps, like how yours is supposed to be normally...lots of 40s, even 50s and not much snow. Actually, I don't know if we even really got any snow in Feb. We are generally in the mid and upper 30s in Jan and Feb (which we've had the last few days).

I think I'm going to mow tomorrow myself. It's not really needed yet, but it's going to be warm, dry, with several warm nights following, and I have the time to do it. Plus it looks like it could be cool and wet for a week or two after, so the next opportunity could be mid to late March. And I like being first in my area.


----------



## Budstl

Good to see ya back at it. Have a great season.


----------



## social port

Green said:


> I heard forsythia bloomed in TN recently! Grass must be fairly green now.
> 
> Here, we are just getting the first hint of yellow on the forsythia. Probably 4-6 weeks until bloom. Like I always say, your area is offset by about 4 weeks from ours in terms of temps.
> 
> I love this time of year.
> 
> Our Winter (hey, Winter isn't over yet!) was, in Jan and Feb in terms of temps, like how yours is supposed to be normally...lots of 40s, even 50s and not much snow. Actually, I don't know if we even really got any snow in Feb. We are generally in the mid and upper 30s in Jan and Feb (which we've had the last few days).
> 
> I think I'm going to mow tomorrow myself. It's not really needed yet, but it's going to be warm, dry, with several warm nights following, and I have the time to do it. Plus it looks like it could be cool and wet for a week or two after, so the next opportunity could be mid to late March. And I like being first in my area.


Green, the first mow is one of the best of the year. Hope you get to kick things into gear soon (although, from your journal, it looks like you've been pretty busy  )


----------



## social port

Budstl said:


> Good to see ya back at it. Have a great season.


Hey Budstl, thanks. Let's get it rockin' :thumbup:


----------



## Utk03analyst

SP did you make it through the storms ok, Murfreesboro was spared but thoughts and prayers going out to Middle TN.


----------



## social port

Utk03analyst said:


> SP did you make it through the storms ok, Murfreesboro was spared but thoughts and prayers going out to Middle TN.


Hey, @Utk03analyst, yes, all is well with me. I'm about 45 minutes south of the Boro. I experienced part of the storm system, but the tornado was long-gone before it hit my area. The storm felt very strong, nonetheless.

Glad to hear that you are OK. There are a good number of forum members in Nashville, and I hope everyone is OK. This was a devastating storm.


----------



## social port

Mowed again yesterday. The fescue is growing quite quickly. Trimmed. Edged for the first time the year. Also planted 6 or so dwarf spruce trees for some decoration in the backyard.

Today, I did a fertilizer and lime app. Carbon X for fert. Very cheap lime from Lowe's. Rate for the lime was around 10lbs product per k. Rate for CX was 2.5 lbs of product per k. 
Starting to see better color. Warmer temps are on the way.


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## Chris LI

:thumbup: 
It looks thick and green, already! Density is impressive for early season. What's your current HOC and do you plan on changing it throughout the season?


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## social port

Chris LI said:


> :thumbup:
> It looks thick and green, already! Density is impressive for early season. What's your current HOC and do you plan on changing it throughout the season?


Hi Chris, I've been back and forth with my HOC plans, but I think I will keep things consistent with last year. I cut most of my yard at 4.5. The backyard, which has TTTF and KBG, gets cut between 2.5 and 3. 
In the photo above, the grass is TTTF cut at 3.0.

I don't like changing HOC throughout the season, so I will most likely finish the season where I start it.


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## pennstater2005

Looking good SP! I'd show you my lawn but you know....


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## social port

pennstater2005 said:


> Looking good SP! I'd show you my lawn but you know....


 :lol: Thanks, pennstater!


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## Budstl

What's the difference in green up between your tttf and kbg sp?


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## Green

@social port, Would you mind posting a closeup of the Carbon-X label? Thanks!


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## social port

Budstl said:


> What's the difference in green up between your tttf and kbg sp?


Definite differences between the two. Right now, the TTTF is greener and healthier-looking than the KBG. It just takes a little longer for the bluegrass to get going. The KBG also seems to be growing at a much slower rate.

This contrasts with end-of-season differences, where the bluegrass stays greener much longer into winter.


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## social port

@Green



Seems to be slightly different in appearance compared to what I used last year. I'm not sure if the analysis is the same. I haven't been keeping up with the news about the product.

Hmmm...now that I think about it, I must have gotten my thinking mixed up at some point, as I thought AMS was the primary N source for CX. Clearly not.


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## Green

@social port, thanks. We do have a thread on this topic in which thegrassfactor answered a bunch of questions about the formula. The gist was that the analysis, even down to the small details, is the same. That includes the AMS N percentage as I understand it. But I would have to check against the old label to verify.

What has changed, is the fast release N source. Instead of a single, homogeneous AMS/Urea prill, the implication was that it is now separate AMS prills and Urea prills. And the urea is now stabilized. The AMS is not. Additionally, the Potassium is now SOP unlike in "version 1" where it was MOP (though that may have been the case in "version 1.5" as well; I don't know). Another change is that the humic acid (and I believe the Kelp also) are gone, and replaced by Soy protein peptides. Incidentally, those contribute a bit of slow release N as well, but it's not on the label because it's too small to list (likely under 1% on average). I think I got all the changes.


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## social port

Green said:


> @social port, thanks. We do have a thread on this topic in which thegrassfactor answered a bunch of questions about the formula. The gist was that the analysis, even down to the small details, is the same. That includes the AMS N percentage as I understand it. But I would have to check against the old label to verify.
> 
> What has changed, is the fast release N source. Instead of a single, homogeneous AMS/Urea prill, the implication was that it is now separate AMS prills and Urea prills. And the urea is now stabilized. The AMS is not. Additionally, the Potassium is now SOP unlike in "version 1" where it was MOP (though that may have been the case in "version 1.5" as well; I don't know). Another change is that the humic acid (and I believe the Kelp also) are gone, and replaced by Soy protein peptides. Incidentally, those contribute a bit of slow release N as well, but it's not on the label because it's too small to list (likely under 1% on average). I think I got all the changes.


Cool. I remember that he became interested in peptides last fall, but I didn't know what came of that line of thought. I seem to recall that it might promote development of roots in some way.

I think I will not use CX again on my bluegrass, as I like AMS for the KBG.


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## social port

It has been raining almost every day, which has prevented me from mowing. I finally got the chance today. I knew the grass had grown quite a bit, but holy moly, I've never cut grass that high. I was doing relief cuts, double and triple passes, and still, I've got clumps all over the place. That's Carbon-X for you. It is growing like it normally grows in April and May.

So, my TTTF seems to be growing full throttle right now. The KBG is still not growing quite as quickly, but it responded amazingly well to the CX app. The color is outstanding. I couldn't ask for anything better. I think I am officially a convert. But no renos in the cards right now.

I'm going to mow again Saturday or Sunday to clean up the mess of my jungle venture today, and I'll take some shots of the bluegrass then (while it lasts).

Also trimmed and did some edging.

Weed pressure is getting a little high for my taste, but I think I am going to hold out a little longer before dragging out the spray tank.

Also, last fall I found that a disease in my neighbor's yard was creeping into mine. Leaf Spot and Grey Leaf Spot were contenders for the ID. The problem remains in my yard, so I sent tissue off to a lab. It is Fusarium Blight. From the review of available research that is linked in SJL's Fungicide Guide thread, it looks like Myclobutanil is the best candidate for treatment, but I am not sure how effective it will be. I am still thinking through my options at this point.

Also mowed over what I think was a Poa A seedhead today :?


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## social port

Quick mow today. 4 days since last cut and considerably overgrown. Both the TTTF and KBG seemed to have lost some color since last mow. Doesn't quite make sense given the rate of growth. Perhaps the iron from the CX lost its effect. Or perhaps the Gravely is just beating up my grass again. 
I'm noticing several grassy weeds that I don't recognize. Troublesome.
Think I'm going to let the necrotic ring spot be. I'm trying to minimize expenses for a while. Hopefully, the grass will bounce back.


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## Green

@social port social, I got the M-binder. Any tips for using it without causing hazardous dust or how to do it so it does what it's supposed to? Maybe I'll get to it tomorrow (Fri).


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## social port

Green said:


> @social port social, I got the M-binder. Any tips for using it without causing hazardous dust or how to do it so it does what it's supposed to? Maybe I'll get to it tomorrow (Fri).


Hey Green,
I have used m-binder a few times. For me the application is very difficult to control. It is guesswork, and there must be a better practice than what I do. That being said, I wear gloves and scatter it with my hand or with a garden spade. It is a lot like 'throwing' seed down into bear areas. I try to distribute enough so that the target area is covered laterally (which makes the ground look brown), but I try not to layer (vertically).
The dust is unavoidable, in my experience. I used a mask one year. But yeah, it isn't my favorite thing to apply or even store in my garage.

Whatever uncertainties and inconveniences are involved in the application, I can say that the tackifier has done its job for me on multiple occasions. I have had heavy downpours while seeding. I have lost some seed, but on the whole, the seeds stayed in the target area.

I hope all is going/went well!


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## social port

Mow, trim, edge, blow. I'm using the Gravely on the bluegrass this year to save time. Overgrown again, but manageable. I need to mow more, but time and weather are obstacles.

Backyard 


The bluegrass is darker than the TTTF. I tried to capture the color difference with this picture. Bluegrass is in the right foreground. TTTF in the upper left background.



Shot of midnight


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## Green

@social port, thanks. I can't take the chance with the dust. I guess I'll just mix it into water and spray it using the pump sprayer like grassdaddy did, but I'll try it without a nozzle installed.

If I had the hoses out already, I would try with a miracle gro sprayer and backfow preventer maybe.

Your lawn looks great (both grass types).


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## g-man

Look at all that blumuda! Awesome! :-D


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## Chris LI

:thumbup: says it all!


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## JDgreen18

Wow that looks very nice....mine is still brown with a few green spots...my tttf and kbg is pretty green tho.


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## social port

Thanks Fellas! If patterns from previous years hold, then I am about to hit my slice of peak turf quality for the season. Gonna enjoy mowing. Then hopefully things stay more blue than muda.
@JDgreen18, good to see you. Have a great season.


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## kds

This looks great @social port!


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## Chris LI

social port said:


> Then hopefully things stay more blue than muda.


Speaking of that, do you have a plan to encourage the kbg to compete or outcompete the Bermuda?

My hellstrip in front of my main front lawn (directly in front of my house-left of my driveway) is kbg infested with zoysia. Some of my cultural practices to favor the kbg have been:

1. Fertilize earlier spring and fall (avoiding later spring and summer, mostly) when the kbg is actively growing and the zoysia is less active.

2. Mow higher because the kbg likes it better than the zoysia, and to promote longer roots, so the zoysia has less of a stranglehold on the kbg roots. My HOC was a little lower last year overall to promote density, but I think the kbg lost ground on the hellstrip. This year, I'm starting lower, but will raise the HOC when the zoysia wakes up and will keep the hellstrip higher than the rest of the lawn to reduce the stress on the kbg.

3. I'm considering Tenacity to "control weeds" on the hellstrip which should hinder zoysia growth, if I have time. I don't think it has much or any effect on Bermuda, but haven't looked it up. I know you're quite knowledgeable about herbicides, so I won't add further comments.

It's been awhile since I looked up bluemuda sportsfield maintenance, but I know SportsTurfOnline has some info on it, if you're interested.


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## Mark B

My goodness that's some nice looking grass&#128064;&#128076;&#127996;
Thanks for sharing the pics


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## Budstl

I'm liking the look of that midnight. :thumbup:


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## social port

kds said:


> This looks great @social port!


Thanks, kds. I'm always impressed by the work that you do, too.



TheWhiteWizard said:


> My goodness that's some nice looking grass👀👌🏼
> Thanks for sharing the pics


Haha. Thanks! I find myself saying "my goodness" every now and then, too. Grass can be so captivating.



Budstl said:


> I'm liking the look of that midnight. :thumbup:


You and me both. I am finally getting a solid answer of which of the bluegrass cultivars I like best. We'll see how things look at the end of the season (completing the second year).


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## social port

Chris LI said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Then hopefully things stay more blue than muda.
> 
> 
> 
> Speaking of that, do you have a plan to encourage the kbg to compete or outcompete the Bermuda?
> 
> My hellstrip in front of my main front lawn (directly in front of my house-left of my driveway) is kbg infested with zoysia. Some of my cultural practices to favor the kbg have been:
> 
> 1. Fertilize earlier spring and fall (avoiding later spring and summer, mostly) when the kbg is actively growing and the zoysia is less active.
> 
> 2. Mow higher because the kbg likes it better than the zoysia, and to promote longer roots, so the zoysia has less of a stranglehold on the kbg roots. My HOC was a little lower last year overall to promote density, but I think the kbg lost ground on the hellstrip. This year, I'm starting lower, but will raise the HOC when the zoysia wakes up and will keep the hellstrip higher than the rest of the lawn to reduce the stress on the kbg.
> 
> 3. I'm considering Tenacity to "control weeds" on the hellstrip which should hinder zoysia growth, if I have time. I don't think it has much or any effect on Bermuda, but haven't looked it up. I know you're quite knowledgeable about herbicides, so I won't add further comments.
> 
> It's been awhile since I looked up bluemuda sportsfield maintenance, but I know SportsTurfOnline has some info on it, if you're interested.
Click to expand...

Well, that is a great question, and an interesting idea. I am fortunately in a situation where my bluegrass is not being threatened by bermuda. It is my TTTF that gets attacked by bermuda, so to be accurate, I have more of a fescuda situation in sections of my yard than anything else. 
I have thought about a joint partnership between the TTTF and the bermuda; but really, I have seen bermuda as a weed for so long that it is difficult for me to see it any other way (unless someone like Redtenchu is running a reel mower -- in his own yard. Then I think it looks good.).

This is neat: We have similar cultural practices for giving cool season grass an advantage over the warm season. 
1. I also avoid heavy fert. apps in the late spring. I provide some because I think the TTTF benefits with a little extra going into a very long summer -- but the formula is heavier dose in early spring and modest (and slow-release) dose in 'mid' spring.
2. I cut most of my TTTF at 4.5. I was hoping that I could actually 'shade' the bermuda out, but I can tell you that it seems to find a way to push through. It gets hilarious, because the stolons will start growing over the top of patches of fescue. It really looks like the bermuda is trying to choke the TTTF. And during the summer, I joke about people walking through the yard and getting pulled under the canopy by the bermuda. Regarding your change in HOC last year to promote density: Last year, I began cutting the TTTF in the backyard at 2.5-3.0. The lower HOC helped me to spot some bermuda that I had overlooked in previous years. It can be tough to identify the bermuda in fescue, at least during the summer. Thriving bermuda and TTTF with water needs/struggles with heat have a similar color. 
3. Tenacity can bleach bermuda, which can be helpful for estimating how much of an area is 'infected,' but I haven't used this method. Assuming Pylex isn't available, generous doses of triclopyr would be my top choice for more selective management of bermuda, but for me soul stealer cco is the answer for killing it. That makes me wonder what tolerance zoysia might have of triclopyr -- or even some mix of tenacity and triclopyr that might spare your KBG.

Thanks for your thoughts here. It is cool to have these conversations about management practices of tough weeds because dealing with them can be so difficult. 
I think blumuda would be an excellent choice for me, and I think it might be a fun exercise. But at this point, the battle with bermuda is so personal that I can't imagine letting it ride, let alone cultivating it. I don't want to think about the bermuda getting into my stands of bluegrass. I think I would turn into the Hulk or something.


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## social port

Had to mow again today (3 days since last mow). I thought I would be cutting at optimum height: but I was wrong. Overgrown again, with substantial clumping.
I don't think my TTTF or my KBG have ever grown this fast. I officially can't keep up. No PGR, so it's just time to do what must be done. Need more gas!


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## Chris LI

Thanks for the detailed follow up on my comments. I can definitely see the parallel between our plights. Zoysia has been the bane of my existence for quite awhile and I've been trying to eradicate it for the most part, but am not in a position to nuke the hellstrip and start over like I did with the area beside the RV (no real irrigation system), for fear of a mud pit if the reno fails.

I forgot about the soul stealer, as a weapon in your arsenal, so that's good to hear. I have read up on it a little, sometime back over the fall/early winter.

I have been planning on adding some Triclopyr to Tenacity (with NIS, too) to reduce whitening, so that will come in handy with battling zoysia. I've done a little reading up on it, but need to sit down and get the math correct. @g-man posted an interesting study yesterday in reference to Tenacity/Triclopyr tank mix-Thanks @g-man .

Since I picked up some AS, I'm considering adding some to my Tenacity/Triclopyr mix, but I need to read up on it first.

It's crazy that you have had Bermuda stolons crawling across the top of your TTTF. I've ripped them out of beds and sometimes painted the runners in the beds (under my cedars) to kill them, but they always come back...more parallels. Thanks again, and I'll be following your journal and other related posts from you on the subject(s).


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## social port

Three mows since last entry. Lots of trimming and edging, too. Unusually cooler temps over the past week have slowed growth.

TTTF looks great. Thick. Deep color. No lesions anywhere. KBG has minor disease - likely powdery mildew (midnight) and something I haven't ID'd yet (3-way). I think shade and excess moisture may be taking a toll on the KBG blend.

''Tis the season for seed heads. Some of them concern me. Poa A for sure. Possibly other things.

TTTT 


Midnight


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## Budstl

@social port both grasses are looking thick and healthy. I'm loving the look of that midnight is giving. When's the midnight reno for the whole yard coming? Are you using a regular push behind on the midnight?


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## Mark B

Ooof you are doing something right!! Luvvly jubbly


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## social port

Budstl said:


> @social port both grasses are looking thick and healthy. I'm loving the look of that midnight is giving. When's the midnight reno for the whole yard coming? Are you using a regular push behind on the midnight?


My wife officially likes the KBG better than the TTTF, so I've got some buy-in for a reno. But no definite plans as of right now. I've been using my Gravely ZT on the bluegrass this year. I mowed with a pushmower for the first time the other day. The bluegrass has handled the ZT very well, so no issues there. The push just stripes better.

I noticed that you might do some test plots. Midnight looks hard to beat, IMO. What else are you considering? My contenders are midnight and bluebank.

Your stripes are looking outstanding, by the way.


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## social port

Mark B said:


> Ooof you are doing something right!! Luvvly jubbly


Thank you. I attribute it largely to cooler temps, lots of rain, and a little carbon x earlier this year.


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## Budstl

Thanks for the compliment sp. I'm thinking midnight and mazama. Bluebank would be a nice option.


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## SNOWBOB11

Man @social port that looks fantastic.


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## social port

Thank you, @SNOWBOB11


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## pennstater2005

Reno time! Do it! That midnight is dark :thumbup:


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## social port

@pennstater2005, I know, and a reno to Midnight or Bluebank seems inevitable at this point. Just a matter of when.

My plan is a very long fallowing process, some leveling, and an irrigation install. I will break the reno down into sections, covering about 5k per year. I am in good shape with most of that, but installing an irrigation system is a task I'm not quite ready for. 
The other main concern is introducing Poa A and T into the yard. I have it in my head that it will kind of be unavoidable with a large KBG reno.


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## Butter

That color is amazing!


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## social port

Thanks, @Butter.


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## JDgreen18

social port said:


> Three mows since last entry. Lots of trimming and edging, too. Unusually cooler temps over the past week have slowed growth.
> 
> TTTF looks great. Thick. Deep color. No lesions anywhere. KBG has minor disease - likely powdery mildew (midnight) and something I haven't ID'd yet (3-way). I think shade and excess moisture may be taking a toll on the KBG blend.
> 
> ''Tis the season for seed heads. Some of them concern me. Poa A for sure. Possibly other things.
> 
> TTTT
> 
> 
> Midnight


WOW that midnight is spectacular....really really nice color. I just want to walk on it barefoot.


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## social port

@JDgreen18, Thanks, man. It is fun to mow that area. I was thinking earlier today that I still have some time to give it a little iron. Might as well enjoy it.


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## JDgreen18

@social port my kbg is waking up slowly. I haven't hit it with fert yet I will this week. I've dont a charity mow to clean everything up but not a real mow...cant wait to lay some stripes lol


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## social port

Mowed and edged today. All of the Bermuda spots from last year have finally filled in, and everything is looking pretty uniform. 
This is my tall cut fescue in the Bermuda Warfield 


And this is my lower cut fescue in the backyard 


My wife has lots of ideas to make the backyard better. We have some new things for this year. She does a good job.



I've seen a lot interest in Mazama lately. This is a shot of a Mazama, NuGlade, and Award mix. It often gets that bluish tint. Perhaps a little prone to disease in my yard - and with no fungicide. It is going into its third year



Applied about 0.4 lbs N (AS) to both stands of KBG today.

I believe that I have triv. It is next to my house and in my front yard. I pulled some today. Very waxy. There is about 300 - 500 sq ft that I am going to need to address ASAP. This is my first triv experience.


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## Budstl

I really like your backyard sp. Lawn is looking great. You have any plans for flower or shrub bed along the fence? The green grass is a nice contrast against the fence, but i feel like some beds would really make everything pop.


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## social port

Budstl said:


> I really like your backyard sp. Lawn is looking great. You have any plans for flower or shrub bed along the fence? The green grass is a nice contrast against the fence, but i feel like some beds would really make everything pop.


Yes, that is a possibility. I'm going to make a rock bed around the base of the house in the next year or two. I have considered adding a bed by the fence as part of the project. It is a hassle and a time-drain to maintain the boundary.


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## Chris LI

Just beautiful! The lawn looks great! That triv is plain evil. Good luck eradicating it. Did you confirm the ID?


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## social port

Chris LI said:


> Just beautiful! The lawn looks great! That triv is plain evil. Good luck eradicating it. Did you confirm the ID?


No, I can't say that I'm certain. I saw the problem developing last year, so I kept my eye on it. I checked for the ligule the other day. It's waxy. It pulls up easily. It's thin. It's lime-yellow. So, it is diagnosis by elimination.

What doesn't add up is that I remember it growing during the summer last year. I discounted triv at that point.
Now, I don't know what else it could be.


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## social port

Pulled weeds from flowerbeds today. Trimmed plants and shrubs. Mowed, trimmed, edged. Pretty full day in the lawn. Gonna kick back for a little bit now. I probably will start the triv project before the end of the week.

Backyard 


Part of front yard


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## social port

Applied about .7 lbs N per k to TTTF only. For the bluegrass, I'm sticking with AMS, and I've decided to avoid adding iron at this point in the season.
Milorganite has disappeared, so I am using ProCare Natural Fert from Lowe's. This is my first time using. Looks like Milo. Smells like Milo. Inconsistent prill sizes. Some debris mixed in, but not a big deal. I would use again.


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## social port

And I'm planning my attack on what I suspect to be poa triv. Can anyone confirm my ID? I always struggle to get good pics, so I apologize for the shortcomings.


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## social port

The suspect triv is lime green and feels rough and waxy. It is easy to pull up. You can see the ligule in the image.
What throws me is that I've never seen it brown or go dormant. And I don't see the band that is observable on the leaf (if that is even something specific to triv).

This is an area of my lawn that stays moist and gets very little direct sunlight.


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## SNOWBOB11

Just looking at the blades I wouldn't be sure it's triv. The stringy base and roots do look a lot like what the triv in my lawn looked like last year though.


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## social port

Huh, thanks for the feedback, @SNOWBOB11. So, it sounds like there is a partial match, but not enough for an ID. I've been trying to think of what else it might be. One thing that comes to mind is hybrid bluegrass. I planted some a few years ago as an experiment, but I've only seen fescue until now.


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## SNOWBOB11

social port said:


> Huh, thanks for the feedback, @SNOWBOB11. So, it sounds like there is a partial match, but not enough for an ID. I've been trying to think of what else it might be. One thing that comes to mind is hybrid bluegrass. I planted some a few years ago as an experiment, but I've only seen fescue until now.


Not too familiar with hybrid bluegrass so not sure. One of the things that really confirmed triv in my yard last year was the stolens connecting one plant to the other. They aren't like the rhizomes of KBG. There thicker. Also the fact that you were able to pull it up easy is a sign of triv so it could be. Always difficult to id for sure.

What are your plans for dealing with it? I know round up is pretty much the only way but it's so annoying to have brown patches and waiting for them to fill in. It basically laughs at tenacity after it browns it up for a couple weeks. Poacure can't come out soon enough.


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## social port

SNOWBOB11 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh, thanks for the feedback, @SNOWBOB11. So, it sounds like there is a partial match, but not enough for an ID. I've been trying to think of what else it might be. One thing that comes to mind is hybrid bluegrass. I planted some a few years ago as an experiment, but I've only seen fescue until now.
> 
> 
> 
> Not too familiar with hybrid bluegrass so not sure. One of the things that really confirmed triv in my yard last year was the stolens connecting one plant to the other. They aren't like the rhizomes of KBG. There thicker. Also the fact that you were able to pull it up easy is a sign of triv so it could be. Always difficult to id for sure.
> 
> What are your plans for dealing with it? I know round up is pretty much the only way but it's so annoying to have brown patches and waiting for them to fill in. It basically laughs at tenacity after it browns it up for a couple weeks. Poacure can't come out soon enough.
Click to expand...

I saw what I believe to be stolons, but they weren't very thick. The plant also lacks the purple stem-I'm not sure how characteristic that is.

I have it in two areas. One patch is in my TTTF. It is small. I ripped it up and will continue to watch this area. The other area is heavily infested - about 300 sq ft next to my house. I'm going to use 2 rounds of gly and then turn the area into a rock border beside the house.
If the weather permits, I will begin the kill tomorrow. I may use some extra preM in this area of my lawn to try to get ahead of any seeds that have been spread.


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## SNOWBOB11

social port said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> Huh, thanks for the feedback, @SNOWBOB11. So, it sounds like there is a partial match, but not enough for an ID. I've been trying to think of what else it might be. One thing that comes to mind is hybrid bluegrass. I planted some a few years ago as an experiment, but I've only seen fescue until now.
> 
> 
> 
> Not too familiar with hybrid bluegrass so not sure. One of the things that really confirmed triv in my yard last year was the stolens connecting one plant to the other. They aren't like the rhizomes of KBG. There thicker. Also the fact that you were able to pull it up easy is a sign of triv so it could be. Always difficult to id for sure.
> 
> What are your plans for dealing with it? I know round up is pretty much the only way but it's so annoying to have brown patches and waiting for them to fill in. It basically laughs at tenacity after it browns it up for a couple weeks. Poacure can't come out soon enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I saw what I believe to be stolons, but they weren't very thick. The plant also lacks the purple stem-I'm not sure how characteristic that is.
> 
> I have it in two areas. One patch is in my TTTF. It is small. I ripped it up and will continue to watch this area. The other area is heavily infested - about 300 sq ft next to my house. I'm going to use 2 rounds of gly and then turn the area into a rock border beside the house.
> If the weather permits, I will begin the kill tomorrow. I may use some extra preM in this area of my lawn to try to get ahead of any seeds that have been spread.
Click to expand...

👍


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## Budstl

@social port you still lingering around? How's the lawn?


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## Green

I think that's a type of Triv. How did I miss the post? It must be dormant by now. Did you end up killing it?

The ligule shape is helpful in tipping in me over the edge of a positive ID. The seedhead is a dead giveaway that it's a Bluegrass, as well. Triv seedheads are almost identical to KBG seedheads. And the boat-shaped tip. And it's often lighter green than KBG. Finally, Triv isn't always stoloniferous. It can be a bunchgrass sometimes. I'll have more to say on that soon. I took some interesting photos recently of some Triv and compared it to KBG side-by-side.

Finally, looking at the location...shaded, near a downspout (frequent moisture source), in what appears to be compacted soil--possibly with rocks underneath--that is the sort of soil environment that Triv likes to invade.


----------

