# St. Aug to Arden 15 Renovation



## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Good afternoon everyone. Ive decided to go for a fresh start. We built the home in 2016. Builder supplied and laid i believe 6 pallets of St. Aug to the 8,000 sqft yard and left the rest as a bare spot for us to finish if we so choose. Figured it was St. Aug in South Louisiana and it would take off and shortly over take the bare spot. Since then I have developed a lawn care habit and a desire to have the best lawn in the neighborhood which consists of 99% (maybe 100%) St. Aug.

When we were building the house i wanted bermuda by all means but the builder told us it would be out of the budget, so we settled for St. Aug. I took care of it every spring, summer and fall with the usual pre-em, weed and feed, grub ex, 1" of water/week, disease-x, etc. mostly all scotts products. Last summer i discovered the Lawn Care Nut/Allyn Hayne. I began with his warm season guide this spring and put down my pre-em followed by a blanket application of Atrazine, some Milo, RGS, MicroGreen, and Air-8. A few weeks went by and i noticed what I THOUGHT to be a weed hadnt been phased by the Atrazine. After research, i realized i was bermuda taking over my lawn. Its at about 30-35% of the yard now.

So ive given up on the St. Aug and decided to go with bermuda since it wants to be here, and since its what I've wanted for my lawn anyway. Yesterday, with 8.5oz of RoundUp Super Concentrate per gallon of water i sprayed my entire 5000sqft front yard (back will be next years project). My plan is to spray 3 times with watering in between, then pull up everything thats dead, level/grade with dredge sand, and have seed down by may 11th.

Also did a soil sample yesterday before spraying the glyphosate. PH is neutral-slight acidic, potash and phosphorus are sufficient, and nitrogen is very well depleted. Needless to say, i will be putting down some starter fertilizer with the seed.

Wish me luck! I will keep everyone posted with pictures


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## BakerGreenLawnMaker (Mar 13, 2018)

Following. This is gonna be a good one!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

BakerGreenLawnMaker said:


> Following. This is gonna be a good one!


I hope your right. Fingers crossed weather co-operates and everything goes to plan


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## BakerGreenLawnMaker (Mar 13, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> BakerGreenLawnMaker said:
> 
> 
> > Following. This is gonna be a good one!
> ...


Next year I hope to transition from St Augustine to Zorro Zoysia. I've lived in our current house going on 4yrs now and the SA is just a pain to deal with. I think it's more so the weed problem that I can't get under control, because we're limited to what we can dump on the SA in fear of destroying it, it's also because the SA is extremely slow growing. We'll see though, hopefully this year I'll be able to save my OT checks for Sod next year. Good luck man, I'll definitely be keeping up with your progress.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Appreciate the good wishes. Same to you on your journey


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

48hrs after first round of glyphosate. Grass is starting to show signs of dying. Mowed at 2.5". Going to wait another 4-5 days and blanket spray the yard again. Weather is calling for some rain tonight but i will also be watering the yard for about an hour every 2 days till next application of glyphosate. That should give me about an inch of water till then


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

So its been 10 days since my first glyphosate treatment. Blanket sprayed again today. Watered about an inch all week and got some pretty heavy rain on Thursday the 18th. Everything seems to be dead with the exception of a few little sprigs and sprouts here and there. Surely they will be toast by the end of next weekend. I didnt mow yet but when i do im going to scalp and bag everything. Probably get around to that in the next day or 2. Other than that. My seed has arrived and im ready to go with everything else in the forecast


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

Interested to see how this turns out! That St. Augustine gave up the ghost pretty quickly.


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

FYI, I got that same test kit and when I sent off a soil sample for testing the results were significantly different from what my home kit indicated. You might want to get a proper sample and see how the results compare.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Colonel K0rn said:


> Interested to see how this turns out! That St. Augustine gave up the ghost pretty quickly.


I didnt give it much of a choice. 50% glyphosate and added an extra ounce per gallon for a little added insurance. Gallon per 1000 sqft. Its toast already. Yard smells like hay


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Scalped today. Miserable. Doesnt help that im allergic to hay. Went down to 1". Still have a little green showing under all that dead brown. Had a few people jogging/walking their dogs turn around once they noticed what i was doing with my big dust/grass cloud over the whole yard haha. Still watering all week and going to blanket spray with glyphosate one more time this weekend

Quick question...should i stop watering once i spray the 3rd round of glyphosate to try to keep the weeds from germinating? Planning on watering pretty heavily the day before i pull the dead grass up in an effort to keep the dust down.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Dang! Good to see another P77 reno go down this year. Good luck to you!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Crabbychas said:


> FYI, I got that same test kit and when I sent off a soil sample for testing the results were significantly different from what my home kit indicated. You might want to get a proper sample and see how the results compare.


Really? Ive used it three times now. First 2 times i sent it out and it was pretty spot on with this kit. Wonder why you got such different results?


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

FRD135i said:


> Dang! Good to see another P77 reno go down this year. Good luck to you!


Thanks!

So ive been thinking. Im wondering if sand is the best choice for leveling out my lawn or if it should actually be done at this point before seed goes down. To me, sand doesn't hold moisture like soil does. So if i go in and add a bunch of sand to my yard, wouldn't i have a hard time achieving germination since the sand will dry out? Wouldn't i be better off just applying the seed to my existing soil in my yard then leveling the yard after i have a healthy stand of bermuda?

I dunno maybe I'm over thinking it. I am also getting conflicting reports on weather or not to put down roundup a day before the seed goes down just to kill anything even thinking about germinating.

I would also like everyones suggestions on post emergent. When to apply after seeding, and what to use. Thanks in advance!


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

This is kind of a long winded post but heres what I've researched as being close to the optimal order of doing things along with the reasoning behind why I did all this. Hopefully this will help you.

1. Before seeding- kill weeds and level
It's easier to level before there is grass because you can just move existing soil around and there isnt all that grass getting in the way. Any holes you fill need to be watered and compacted a couple times because they will settle the first time you fill them. As for bringing in more material, soil is fine, but any organic matter in it will decompose eventually and cause a low spot. Most soil doesn't have enough nutrients to support the kind of turf we want so the base is more or less irrelevant. Sand gets used because it's cheap and easy to work with.

Roundup should be used liberally here. It has basically no soil residual and little to no soil activity so you can spray one last time right before you seed. Some other herbicides will need a week or more to get out of the soil so if you want to spray something different see what the label says about seeding after use. Crossbow for example says not to use for 3-4 weeks before seeding.

2. Seeding
Spread some peat moss and seed on top of that then rake the seed in gently with an upside down leaf rake.

Since Bermuda seeds are so small they have to be right at the surface to successfully germinate. The peat moss holds water very well. Aim for about a 1\8" layer. I used 4 large bags for about 1300 sf and it was just about perfect. Straw is another popular option for this step but it can introduce lots of undesired seeds to the seed bed.
When seeding I put down a starter fertilizer at the rate to get me 1.5# phosphorus and mixed 2.5lbs of Bermuda seeds into the fertilizer. I put my spreader on a low setting and spread until it was empty. 
After spreading I took my leaf rake, flipped it upside down, and just walked back and forth trailing it behind my till I had gone over the whole area. It should just very lightly furrow the surface.

4. Water
Keep it moist for the next two weeks.
This is where the peat moss comes in. You'll have to figure it out by trial and error but I run my sprinklers for 5 minutes at sunrise, the every 4 hours till sunset. In the middle of the day you might need to reduce it to every 3 hours, but you have to keep the seedbed moist for good germination. Once the seeds are starting to sprout everywhere you can start going from frequent light watering to infrequent heavy watering.

4. Post germination herbicides.
MSMA and quinclorac are safe to use 1 week after emergence, as are several products that work well on sedges. I waited about a month when I seeded my front lawn last year, and at that point you can use basically anything. I will be spraying fairly soon this year since the area i seeded in my backyard is just so full of weeds its bonkers.

A lot of my info came from these papers as well as advice given on this forum
https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/MP477.pdf
https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/pubs/bermudagrassguide.pdf
http://www.pickseed.com/Admin/Public/Download.aspx?file=Files%2FFiles%2F_Brandsites%2Fpickseed.com%2FResources+-+Tech+Articles%2Fbermudagrass_herbicide_strategies.pdf


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanks for the help. I had read two of those articles but was still confused on some things. Guess its just a lot to take in at once.

Does anyone have a quinclorac product they have experience with and would recommend? Im looking at this one to have on hand once germination starts...


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

That's what I have. It works just fine but I think crabgrass isn't going to be much of a problem. Sedges and broad leaf weeds are what's gonna come up, and unless you have a spot that's totally overgrown with weeds it might be best to wait till its matured and just spray a mix of Celsius and certainty.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanks for the help man. Yea i was going to wait to spray any weeds until the yard is at least 90% full. Just want to have everything on hand and ready to go for when that time comes. Ill get some celsius and certainty coming. Getting anxious to lay some seed down. Going nuke the yard one more time later this evening. Then the fun starts...


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## jakemauldin (Mar 26, 2019)

One thing I have concern for is the soil temps at night. I bought some P77 from Hancock and seeded a small spot a few weeks ago. I watered it several times everyday and had a topsoil/sand mix. I didn't have one seed germinate. It was really just for giggles to see if it would germinate early since I knew the soil wasn't consistently staying above 65 degrees even though air temps were in the 70's and even saw a couple 90 degree days. I now plan to seed the first week of June so I know for certain the seed will germinate. I have a soil thermometer stuck in the ground measuring constantly and I'm sitting about 60-62. I also noticed in the clay soil and topsoil the temps are about 4-5 degrees warmer than the sand. So using sand might give you some problems with germination. On the other hand I suggest leveling with the sand now because its so much more difficult once you've seeded to level. If it were me I would wait and spend the next few weeks getting everything leveled and then seed. 415 dollars a bag is a lot of money to throw away if the soil is still too cool.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Man thats my biggest fear. I do all of this work, spend all of this money and nothing takes off. Ive been checking soil temps every morning around the same time all week. At 6:00am the lowest average reading ive gotten is 69 degrees. Weve had 2 of the lower nights this weekend that i think we're going to have until fall where temps got down to 58 at night. Im fairly confident that I will be good when may 11 rolls around. Going to verticut and try to spread some sand this weekend coming. Hopefully anything left in the soil will germinate and i can hand pick it before the seed goes down a week later


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

I put my seed down on May 14 last year and had no real issues with the temps. Got to stay on that water though


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

FRD135i said:


> I put my seed down on May 14 last year and had no real issues with the temps. Got to stay on that water though


Where are you located?


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

You will be fine. Last year I did my front yard on May 15, within 2 weeks I was mowing. Once it comes out of the ground and gets roots it starts taking off quickly. Just keep it wet.


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

Alex_18 said:


> FRD135i said:
> 
> 
> > I put my seed down on May 14 last year and had no real issues with the temps. Got to stay on that water though
> ...


Carriere ms


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Crabbychas @FRD135i

I'm about to put my Princess 77 down probably last week of May or first of June.

How many times a day and how long did you water?

Also how many rounds of glyphosate did you guys spray before seed.

If you don't mind me asking?

Thanks


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## FRD135i (Oct 15, 2017)

ENC_Lawn said:


> @Crabbychas @FRD135i
> 
> I'm about to put my Princess 77 down probably last week of May or first of June.
> 
> ...


Here is my journal

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1928

I did three kills with a till inbetween 2 and 3. Most don't recommend a till but my dirt was redicoulously compacted and just needed an overhaul anyway. A Harley rake comes highly recommended. 
I had a timer set up to water 15 min every 4 hours. You can see in the progression where I wasn't getting coverage but this year it has filled out. It would look much better but I am splitting my time with work, a house reno, 7 month old, and the lawn. 
I am very pleased with the P77 though and it really is starting to shine


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

I sprayed 3 times also. Scalped in between 2 and 3. Watering is going to be different for everyone due to soil conditions, weather, direct sunlight, etc. Some do 5 mins every hour some do 15 mins every 4hrs. What ive learned and will do is this. Once i get all of my dead SA up and i have my yard level& graded, i will run the sprinkler for 5 mins and see how long it takes for the soil to "dry up". Then i will make the adjustment accordingly. If i dries up in less than an hour i know ill need more than 5 mins of water. Ill have a week of bare soil to figure this out so it will give me some time for trial and error. You only want to keep the soil bed damp. Too much water and you run the risk of runoff, seed rot, etc. so in my opinion, the more frequent less volume you can get away with, the better. Dont forget, once you get it figured out, adding peat moss will only improve water retention on the seeds so keep that in the back of your mind as you're figuring it out also


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

ENC_Lawn said:


> @Crabbychas @FRD135i
> 
> I'm about to put my Princess 77 down probably last week of May or first of June.
> 
> ...


I'm watering for 12 minutes at 6am, 11am, 3pm, and 730pm. I also put down a layer of peat moss which helps greatly since the sand we have here will be dry at the surface in 5 minutes, with the peat moss it stays moist all day. There are a few spots that dry out eventually because rain washed away some the peat, but the grass is still germinating there since it stays wet most of the time.

I did 3 rounds of glyphosate a week apart each time. I spot sprayed with some 3-way in the backyard since there were weeds that were regrowing from roots as well.

When I did my front lawn last year, I went from laying seed to just about full coverage in less than a month, the temps were in the high 80s. My back yard right now has taken about 3 times as long to get to the same stage since I started a month earlier.

May 14 - Seeded

May 24

June 2


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Crabbychas said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > @Crabbychas @FRD135i
> ...


Very Nice Progress!

Also did you water inbetween your 3 rounds of glyphosate? I have sprayed 3 rounds so far over the past 4 weeks.


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Crabbychas after the seeds emerged at what week did you cut back the watering to once or twice a week with deep watering vs daily waterings?

Also did you use any nitrogen or starter fertilizer besides the initial seeding to get results that fast?


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> I sprayed 3 times also. Scalped in between 2 and 3. Watering is going to be different for everyone due to soil conditions, weather, direct sunlight, etc. Some do 5 mins every hour some do 15 mins every 4hrs. What ive learned and will do is this. Once i get all of my dead SA up and i have my yard level& graded, i will run the sprinkler for 5 mins and see how long it takes for the soil to "dry up". Then i will make the adjustment accordingly. If i dries up in less than an hour i know ill need more than 5 mins of water. Ill have a week of bare soil to figure this out so it will give me some time for trial and error. You only want to keep the soil bed damp. Too much water and you run the risk of runoff, seed rot, etc. so in my opinion, the more frequent less volume you can get away with, the better. Dont forget, once you get it figured out, adding peat moss will only improve water retention on the seeds so keep that in the back of your mind as you're figuring it out also


Thanks for the advice.!

Im going to do the same on the watering. My goal is to make sure it stays wet but not any standing water...if I understand it correctly.


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

I did water once or twice between apps of glyphosate.

I put down .5# N on the 24th. I'm not sure about the watering schedule but I gradually tapered off. I went to sunrise, noon, and sunset, then noon and sunset, then before sunrise every day, and after that I let the Rancho calculate the watering. If it was looking stressed I'd just manually water.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Forecast calling for 100% rain Saturday which is when i have been planning to get rid of the dead SA for weeks now. FML. Guess it will be Kentucky Derby day for me. Yard will have to wait till Sunday &#129315;

Looking for opinions and advice on making this next step as quick and painless as possible. My plan is to rent a Dethatcher and tear it out with that. Thanks in advance


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## gb043075 (Feb 25, 2019)

I scalped with rotary, power rake / dethatcher, then drug a spike mat around. Got most of it.


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## jakemauldin (Mar 26, 2019)

Well I went out and tossed down some seed in this bare spot off my porch. After the rain last night my soil temp was only down to 60 so I'm gonna give it a shot in this small area again and see how it goes. I'm ready to get some P77 poppin!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Going to pull dead SA up tomorrow. Try to beat the rain. Walking the lawn today i pulled back a dead spot and noticed something wiggling around in the dead grass. Close to the soil. Was black or dark in color and about 1/4" maybe a little longer in size. At first i thought oh $h!+ i have a worm problem. So with TLF in the back of my mind, i took a picture but it wasnt very clear because of how small the thing is and its color just blended it right in with the soil/dead grass. So i took a video and cut a screen shot out of it. Now that I've watched the video a few times, im starting to think maybe a baby field mouse? We live right next to an old ag field thats been cut. We've been seeing a few mice here and there in the yard but, I need help identifying whatever this is. Hopefully you can see it. Wish there was a way to share video's


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Anyway. Got the lawn cleared. Between friday and Saturday afternoon. Not very impressed with the job the dethatcher did. Had it set on the lowest setting but it left a lot of shoots from the SA. I know its all dead and isnt coming back but i think im going to take a spike drag and drag the yard behind my ATV or get out the old propane torch/weed burner and get the ground as bare as i can before the top soil comes next weekend (weather permitting). Will post pictures later


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Current state of the renovation...90% of dead grass is gone. Just have my fence line and edges around the house/flowerbed/walkways to pull us with my rake. Still plan on doing the spike drag behind the ATV then blowing everything that comes loose with that out of the yard. Getting 8 yards of screened topsoil delivered for $250. 8+ yards is free delivery and i think it should take about that to get the yard graded/leveled. Got some pretty heavy rains forecasted for the next few days so not quite sure when ill get around to the topsoil. Anyway, a few pictures of where the yard is at today...


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Built a "drag mat" today. If i ever get the chance to use it, it would be a miracle. Anyone in South Louisiana can vouch for me on the past 2 days. Just glad i dont have seed out yet cause it would be gone, but im getting anxious. Still going back and forth on getting screened topsoil or mortar sand.

On another note I'm going get this next weekend. Found it for $500. 27" Tru-cut w 5.5 Honda motor


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## bub365 (May 9, 2019)

Looking forward to seeing your progress! I also am doing a renovation and purchased the same Bermuda princess 77 seed from hancock... may start a thread.going to be renting a dingo with harley rake next few weeks


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Sounds good man. Good luck with everything. Let us know if you need advice with anything


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

I would like some opinions on starter fertilizers. What to use, what not to use, etc. Doing some research now but would like to hear from some of you that have actually used the stuff before

Really would like to use the N-Ext green start as i plan on putting down some Air-8 & RGS the same day i put seed down


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## Crabbychas (Apr 25, 2018)

I'd just put down whatever you can get easily as long as its high P. Most sources I've seen call for 1-1.5# Phosphorus per thousand at seeding. You want to put down as much P and as little N as possible, since the N will get the weeds growing better. I'd hold off on spraying anything until you get germination.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Best i can find around here is 24-25-4 which is Scotts starter fertilizer. I was planning on using that anyway. Seed should be going down Friday or Saturday. Wish it could be sooner but ill take what i can get


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

8 yards of screened topsoil coming in tomorrow. Hopefully get to put seed down Friday afternoon/Saturday morning. Got 35lbs of Scotts starter fertilizer to throw down with the seed. Going to be putting down 2lbs seed and 1.5lbs phosphorus/1000sqft. Getting anxious now

On another note, im curious if there is a product out there that will keep the birds from eating the seed? Ive been seeing quite a few birds in my yard now that its just bare ground. I plan on putting peat moss down on top of the seed but will that be enough?


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Also, the forecast is calling for .35" of rain between Saturday and Sunday. Im going out of town for work Sunday morning and will not be back until late Thursday night. Is .35" of rain enough for me to worry about seed washing away? Yard is getting graded/leveled tomorrow. Ill be able to keep an eye on things Saturday but the wife will have to be on "seed watch" all next week starting Sunday. No rain in the forecast after Sunday but the sprinklers will be able to handle that while im gone


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Seed going down tomorrow. Worked later than planned and got done what i could to get ready for seed to be put down tomorrow morning. Dirt was spread and graded today


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Put starter fert and seed down this morning. Been watering every 2 hrs for 7 mins. Having a tough time with the wind messing with the sprinklers so not everything is getting wet. I think i may go with a different approach and water for a longer time but not as often. That way over night and early morning/late afternoon when the wind isnt such an issue i can really get things wet. Thinking maybe 15 mins every 3 or 4 hrs?


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Awesome to hear the seed is down!

I am excited to follow your progress.

We are on the exact same watering schedule ( I been watering every 2 hours for 7 mins) and you are right about the wind.

I tried the 15 minutes schedule and it took away my puddling issues...however I got concerned I wasn't watering enough and went back to 7 minutes every 2 hours with some puddling in low spots and etc.

I think my fear of underwatering has caused me to over water though....

Its 90 degrees right now in NC and 15 minutes every 4 hours I think will work for sure in early morning and late at night ....not sure about during the day though.

Its the weekend so I say try the 15 minutes schedule since your home to monitor it!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Well. Got back home late last night and found the yard was a wreck. Thunderstorms came through the day after i put the seed down and dropped 2.25" of rain in a matter of 8 hours. Needless to say a good 80% of the seed was washed away. So i raked out the gullies and threw down some more seed.

Forecast calling for no rain in the next 7 days so sprinklers will be working overtime. On a 5 min every 4 hr schedule right now. Was doing 15 mins every 4 hrs and the yard was staying too wet. Plus i got a water violation for running 7 sprinklers for 1.5 hrs every 4 hrs...&#129318;&#127995;‍♂

Hopefully i can get some germination pretty soon


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Sorry to hear about the bad luck with the thunderstorm.

For what it's worth I think your new watering schedule sounds good.

I'm at day 20 today and I have grass 1 inch long as well as thick and dense in areas of my yard that didn't get as much water.

In the majority of my lawn unfortunately...I don't have no where near the germination I should have from what I believe is me overwatering way too much.

So it sounds like your are on the right track!

Good luck!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanks @ENC_Lawn ! Same to you

So i woke up this morning and went walk around. Im no expert but im pretty sure this is what is called germination!?


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Think i found my sweet spot with the watering schedule. Going for 5 mins every 6 hrs now and some areas that arent as big/dont get as much sun are going for 5-7 mins every 12 hrs

The yard is staying wet but not to the point of runoff or puddling any more. Watering at 5:00am & pm and 11:00am & pm. The 11:00pm and 5:00am watering really get everything nice and wet since the wind isnt much of a factor at those times


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Im no where near ready for it but, when time comes for nitrogen, would you guys go with a straight nitrogen product like ammonium sulfate, or a product like Milorganite/Carbon X, etc...?

My plan was to wait until at least the second cut, then hit it with a mix of celsius and certainty. Then start spoon feeding nitrogen at .5lb/1000sqft every weekend. Followed up by another round of celsius/certainty 4-6 weeks after the first round. Then change the nitrogen over to 2-3 lbs once every month. What's everyone's thoughts on that as well?


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## bub365 (May 9, 2019)

Just my 2 cents....I'd be cautious using synthetic fertilizer and go light at first..spoon feeding yes I agree with.the last thing you want to do is burn the new grass but at the same time understanding that you want it to fill in as much as possible.id almost play it safe and just use milo until it matures a little then start the synthetic. But hey im learning and doing the exact same p77 renovation at the moment .good luck


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

@bub365 Yea i was kinda thinking along the same lines. Went ahead and bought a bag of Carbon X last night for after i finish with the spoon feeding

Going to spoon feed with milo for sure


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Went ahead and put another 1lb of seed per 1000 sqft this morning and put some peat moss down on top of it. That puts me at 4.5 lbs/1000 that ive put out. I know it sounds like a lot but my originally broadcasted seed got washed away the day after i put it out so im actually @ more like 2.5lbs/1000.

I would like to see more grass (and a lot less weeds) growing than i currently am but i just have to keep reminding myself to be patient

Might put down another application of starter fertilizer for the seed that was put down last weekend and today


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> Went ahead and put another 1lb of seed per 1000 sqft this morning and put some peat moss down on top of it. That puts me at 4.5 lbs/1000 that ive put out. I know it sounds like a lot but my originally broadcasted seed got washed away the day after i put it out so im actually @ more like 2.5lbs/1000.
> 
> I would like to see more grass (and a lot less weeds) growing than i currently am but i just have to keep reminding myself to be patient
> 
> Might put down another application of starter fertilizer for the seed that was put down last weekend and today


Glad to hear you put more seed down!

You want regret it.

I put more starter fertilizer down last week when I reseeded...I was a little nervous...because in one area of my lawn (my side yard) It was only 7 days since my last application of fertilizer...so I didn't know what to do and I just rolled the dice and reapplied more starter fertilizer.

Im not sure if that was by the text book for seeding...or not...but this week that side of my yard and the reseeding area is looking the best out of my entire yard.

Hopefully others who are more knowledgeable will comment!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

@ENC_Lawn I think I'm going to put down a light app tomorrow. Maybe 1lb of phosphorus per 1000. It's been 14 days since my last app

Plus when I put my original app down, I noticed my 15lb bags were pretty much in powder form. The 3lb bag I put out was granular like a fertilizer "should" be. Guess the south Louisiana humidity got to those big bags sitting outside in the racks at Home Depot


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

So i just looked at the bag I received from Hancock seed when i ordered the last 5lb order. I knew P77 was going out of stock and was being replaced by Arden 15. I was under the impression that they were going to make the switch once they got rid of the remaining P77. Nope, I got 5lbs of Arden 15. Put it out today so lets see what happens.

Apparently its a P77 upgrade. The only differences in between the two from what i can tell is Arden has: faster grow in rate, earlier spring green up, and an improved cold tolerance. Have to see how this comes up but sounds like ill like it&#129335;&#127995;‍♂


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Alex_18

I spoke to Pennington about it a while back. Its suppose to match up with no difference in color.

Also has a faster spring greenup.

And like you said it establishes much faster.

Keep me posted...I interested to see the difference as well.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

@ENC_Lawn yea thats all i noticed too. Glad to know you talked to someone and that it's compatible with P77

Put down another app of Scotts Starter Fert today @ 1lb phosphorus/1000sqft. Bought 1 15 lb bag and same old story with this stuff. 15 lbs of powder. They need to come up with a better way to keep the bags air tight IMO. Seems like the humidity is getting to the product before the consumer can use it. The 3lb bags were all dry and granular like fert should be but they're air tight. Has anyone else noticed this problem with scotts starter fert?

On another note, i was looking for grass growing while putting fert out. I have more coming up than i thought. Also got my shipment of Carbon X in today for when im ready to start using synthetic nitrogens. Celsius and certainty should be showing up this week too. Going out of town for work again tomorrow for 2 weeks so the wife's back on sprinkler duty. I think shes as ready for a Bermuda lawn as i am. At least i wont be able to check it every day. Should see a big difference in 2 weeks when i get back.

Going to order a manual reel in that time frame too for the first few cuts till it gets well established. Got my eye on a 27" tru cut that I'll probably go pick up when i get back also


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Well here goes nothing. Sprinklers are off. Got a $h!t ton of rain coming in the forecast. Hope that peat moss can keep the seed in its place where it is and get things really going. Not putting any more seed out so what ever comes up from here on out is what im going with

If i dont get a good stand by the end of this month going to start looking at sod options


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

How soon is "too soon" to use a celsius/certainty application? Last bit of seed went down on June 1 but the purple nutsedge is taking over quickly

Wasnt planning on doing anything till after the second mow. Guess i can just hand pull a few out every day


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Well gents. I find myself at a crossroads on this Father's Day afternoon. I got home late last night from being gone for 12 days and the yard was a salad bar. Got a little bit of everything growing in it. So i find myself with a decision to make...

1) nuke it and start over completely

2) blanket spray with Celsius/Certainty and continue to put more seed down

I would say out of 5,500 sqft, maybe 10% of it is Bermuda seed coming up. I have no clue what i did wrong to get so many weeds coming up but its just about taken over. I just got done cutting. Went down to about 1.25". I plan on spraying something tomorrow or Thursday according to the weather forecast and cutting down to 1". Just not sure which route to go yet


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Decided to spray Celsius/Certainty today. Celsius @ 1.6g/1000 & Certainty at 0.8g/1000

On another note, while i was spraying, i noticed i have a lot more bermuda coming up than i thought. Probably more like 30-40% coverage. Hopefully i can get a good bit of these weeds to die off and i can throw some more seed down in 2 weeks


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> Decided to spray Celsius/Certainty today. Celsius @ 1.6g/1000 & Certainty at 0.8g/1000
> 
> On another note, while i was spraying, i noticed i have a lot more bermuda coming up than i thought. Probably more like 30-40% coverage. Hopefully i can get a good bit of these weeds to die off and i can throw some more seed down in 2 weeks


Good to hear you have more Bermuda...than you thought.

It seems P77 takes a while to come up in my yard...it germinated quickly and then just sits there for a while...and about day 30 starts take off.

However I seeded a friend of mine backyard and he had almost full coverage in 19 days " he has very sandy soil"...we're my lawn is a lot of clay.

Keep up good work...I think the Bermuda will jump out and take off soon.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

I know its been a while and honestly i was ready to give up but i think I've gotten it back to a manageable position

So between my last post and this one, there were 3 mowings, a round of glyphosate on the areas that were all weeds, and 12 more lbs of seed along with 6oz of Air-8/1000ft. Maintaining the lawn that is coming in at 1" HOC


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

How did the young bermuda handle the Celsius? I'd read on the label not to use it until 4 weeks after germination, curious how it went for you as I think you did it sooner than that?


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

ktgrok said:


> How did the young bermuda handle the Celsius? I'd read on the label not to use it until 4 weeks after germination, curious how it went for you as I think you did it sooner than that?


I tried to steer clear of the areas of grass that i did have growing but there were some areas that i did spray also. The areas of new grass that did get sprayed didnt show any signs of damage. Maybe a sight yellowing but other than that. Not much


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Good to see your still working hard.

Its frustrating... and a LOT of work...but you got enough Bermuda that you will succeed.

I had to reseed twice...but water and fertilizer eventually prevailed!

Good job on the weeds!!!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Thanks man. Yea im extremely pleased on how well the weeds have been knocked down for now. Im sure thats not the last encounter ill have with them. Just need to get that Arden 15 growing. Got big plans for this thing


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Quick update. Not having as much success as I thought I would at this point. Been cutting at 1" HOC 2x per week. Still have a few weeds popping up here and there but nowhere near as bad as it was. Sprayed another round of Celsius/Certainty yesterday and put down my second app of Carbon-X today. Im only spoon feeding right now with the Carbon-X @ .5lb/1000sqft every week. Watering schedule is 10 mins every 12 hrs (5am & 5pm). Bought a pro plugger so im just going to continue with everything as is and plug the bare spots as much as possible until the grass goes dormant


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## Seanusa (Jul 25, 2019)

Why don't you just use Blindside? It kills everything except bermuda.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Seanusa said:


> Why don't you just use Blindside? It kills everything except bermuda.


What about goose grass? I dont see it on the label and thats my biggest issue. I sprayed a medium rate of Celsius and full rate of Dismiss Sunday. This is what majority of the goosegrass in my yard looks like now. I can control everything else with what i have


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Long over due but here it is...

Finally got a hold of the goose grass with some dismiss. I've really come to like that product. As soon as i got that taken care of i started with a dove weed issue. Battled that for the rest of the growing season and went into dormancy with a few bare spots from the dead goose grass and dove weed.

Started my program in January when soil temps hit about 55 degrees with prodiamine, rgs, and humic 12. About 6 weeks later i hit it with some X green, rgs, microgreen, and air 8.

Got called to go on a 3 week job and wasn't able to cut so needless to say, when i got back the lawn looked horrible. Grass was about 3" tall.

Broke out the brand new 25" McLane, jacked it up to 1.5" and double cut. Waited 2 days then went down to 1". Waited 2 more days and put down some urea, rgs, microgreen, and humic 12. Cut again the next day (yesterday) at 5/8" to start my spring scalp and that's where i am today.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Pretty sure im going to go even lower tomorrow. Like down to 7/16". My question is this though...

Im planning on scalping down to 1/4" in a few weeks when i do my leveling

Do i need to stay at 5/8" until i scalp or is it ok to go down to 7/16" then back up to 5/8" for maintenance until i go down to the 1/4" cut?

I just want to stress the lawn as least as possible. Maybe @ENC_Lawn @Mightyquinn @Ware @J_nick @Redtwin can help


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> Pretty sure im going to go even lower tomorrow. Like down to 7/16". My question is this though...
> 
> Im planning on scalping down to 1/4" in a few weeks when i do my leveling
> 
> ...


Your lawn is looking good. You got a great starting point.

Hopefully the more experienced guys can chime in....but I would say go ahead and go as low as you can now.

I don't see any reason why it would hurt anything.

You will have a more scalped look...but I would think this will make the scalp even easier when you go to sand.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I would also go as low as you can right now (1/4"?). You can then bump it up to 3/8" or so until you level. If it's at 3/8" when you level you will be fine. You just want the grass to be standing up and not laying over when you are spreading the sand.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> I would also go as low as you can right now (1/4"?). You can then bump it up to 3/8" or so until you level. If it's at 3/8" when you level you will be fine. You just want the grass to be standing up and not laying over when you are spreading the sand.


Thanks @ENC_Lawn

@Redtwin, could i just gradually take it down 1 notch at a time until im ready to level? Or wouldit be best just to go down to 1/4" then maintain it at 7/16 until im ready to scalp for sand?

Im shooting to do the leveling around the 17th of April which is right around the corner. Thats why im wondering if scalping twice that close to one another is OK


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

I would try to maintain it as low as you can so it is as dense as possible before you scalp to level. It should help to recover faster.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I would think it would be better to scalp twice than to gradually lower it. I think scalping is like pulling off a band aide. If you scalp low and then allow it to recover for a few weeks, then scalp again for the leveling, that would give the turf a little time to grow. Gradually going lower keeps it stressed the whole time.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Redtwin said:


> I would think it would be better to scalp twice than to gradually lower it. I think scalping is like pulling off a band aide. If you scalp low and then allow it to recover for a few weeks, then scalp again for the leveling, that would give the turf a little time to grow. Gradually going lower keeps it stressed the whole time.


Makes sense. I'll scalp at 1/4" tonight and maintain at 7/16" until I'm ready to scalp again at leveling. Thanks again for the help everyone. I'll keep everyone posted on the progress

Grooved Reel Roller will be delivered today. Pretty pumped to try that out tonight with the scalp too


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Looking forward to following your lawn this season!!!


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Took it down to 1/4" this afternoon. Looks horrible and is painful to look at 😢 but i know it will be worth the pain in the long run

I guess the next step would just be to water like crazy and keep up with my normal fertility program and maintain the HOC at 7/16"


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

7 days later update: cut 2 days ago at 7/16 and have been watering 1/2" twice a week. Coming back nicely


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

12 days later. Cut at 7/16 again today. Really liking how its coming along. GreenPunch next weekend should really get it popping


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## Schaftastic (Oct 4, 2019)

After you seeded and had good germination, how long did you wait to apply herbicides and which ones did you find most effective without damaging the new seeded turflings?


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

@Alex_18

Your mower laid down some good looking stripes! :thumbup:


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

Schaftastic said:


> After you seeded and had good germination, how long did you wait to apply herbicides and which ones did you find most effective without damaging the new seeded turflings?


it was about 3 weeks after my first signs of germination. i used celsius and certainty. i didnt notice any damage but i also didnt spray the new seedlings directly. i did more of a spot spray application where i would just target the weeds growing by themselves. obviously not all weeds were by themselves so i did have to spray some grass, but like i said, no noticeable damage

i would almost suggest using dismiss instead of certainty just because it seems to control more weeds than certainty and my biggest issue was goosegrass, which certainty has no effect on, but dismiss knocked it out quickly. but i havent used it on newly germinated grass so i cant recommend it until you have established turf


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

ENC_Lawn said:


> @Alex_18
> 
> Your mower laid down some good looking stripes! :thumbup:


yea it does a nice job. im going to have to get a recent photo of the lawn this afternoon. mowed at 7/8" for the first time yesterday. i think thats going to be its sweet spot. what is your HOC?

i just started a new project this weekend. my back yard is 2k sqft of SA but its very weak and not healthy and has a lot of common bermuda growing in it. so i sprayed about 1k sqft of it with quinclorac. it should kill the SA and not effect the bermuda. im mowing it as low as i can with the rotary right now but once the SA starts dying off ill start reel mowing it and spoon feeding the bermuda and spray the other 1k sqft and repeat the process


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > @Alex_18
> ...


My HOC normally is around .75 to 1 inch....I believe.


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## Alex_18 (Mar 9, 2019)

ENC_Lawn said:


> My HOC normally is around .75 to 1 inch....I believe.


Man i was trying to maintain it at 5/16-7/16" but it just doesnt look as good as it does when its a little taller. Not sure why that is even after i scalped it down to 1/4". Wish i could keep it around 7/16"


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## ENC_Lawn (Sep 9, 2018)

Alex_18 said:


> ENC_Lawn said:
> 
> 
> > My HOC normally is around .75 to 1 inch....I believe.
> ...


Yeah....I agree.

I prefer a little higher HOC as well!


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