# Long Island spring-seed/weed control??



## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

Hi All. 
I am knew here and just want to thank anyone in advance for any advice offered.

I am trying to wrap my head around this lawn care thing and get a plan down for this spring. Bought a flip last year and inherited major weed problems. Large crabgrass infestation. This past fall I dethatched, aerated, and then seeded (pennington northwest mix) and covered with pete moss/starter fert. I got a late jump, so some areas remain thin and patchy. also never got down any fall pre-emerg.

My front lawn is in much better shape than the back, and has a large area of what appears to be zoysia; the rest is some mix of cool season grass. Front has several patchy spots, and also had some crabgrass last year. Back had major crab grass and now remains very patchy and thin in some larger spots. There is some nice, healthy grass, but I'm afraid that crabgrass etc. will thrive in the thinner areas. At present I see a fair amount of small white flower like weeds, some small purple-ish flowering weeds, clover and some isolated spots of what appears to be POA, along with a lot of dead crabgrass. Theres also some moss taking up what used to be some thinner areas of grass in the back.

I'm tempted to put down some seed and use scotts starter fert. with crabgrass control (tenacity?)https://www.lowes.com/pd/scotts-starter-plus-weed-preventer-21-52-lb-5000-sq-ft-21-22-4-lawn-starter/4005779?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-lwn-_-google-_-lia-_-107-_-fertilizer-_-4005779-_-0&kpid&store_code=1709&k_clickID=go_625853898_34614672910_111134451790_aud-449333924337la-118431011584_c_9004478&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_bKg-aay4QIVC-DICh25FAEvEAQYAiABEgJDcPD_BwE and then follow with another app of some type of crab grass control later after germination occurs. My plan would then be to follow scotts basic schedule from there (summer weed./feed, fall turf builder etc). Any thoughts??

My second option is to simply follow the Scotts schedule and skip seeding for now (scotts turf builder with halts now, then weed/feed later etc.). https://www.homedepot.com/p/Scotts-5-000-sq-ft-Northern-Lawn-Fertilizer-Program-for-Bermuda-Bluegrass-Rye-Tall-Fescue-and-Bent-Grass-4-bag-46220/304943089?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-304943106-_-304943089-_-N

What do you guys think? I can post some pics tomorrow of the lawn as well.

One thing to mention is that I am working some pretty brutal hours over the next couple months (around 70-80hr weeks) and so hence the whole "scotts" thing. I am looking for a simple and at least somewhat effective plan. Any advice is more than welcome. I am a beginner here and I am open to learning and sharing.

Cheers


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

Greetings @gerardr and welcome to TLF!

Fellow Islander here!

Pictures would certainly help but even without them i can tell you those small white flower looking weeds are called Hairy Bittercress. I had them all over my yard but a dose of Ortho WGB knocked them out easy. For the clover you can use  Ortho CCO. I would also get a soil test ASAP. The soil on around here is extremely acidic so you'll absolutely need some lime apps, that should help with your moss problem.

If it were me, id choose both. Seed now with Tenancy to cover bare patches then in 30 days put down a preM with post control like Dithiopyr. Spend the entire spring and summer maintaining good cultural practices then come Labor day either overseed or nuke it and reno!


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@SantiCazorla ...

Thanks for the reply and input. Seems like now would be a good time to use the WBG since I Have heard some cases of those products causing harm during hotter months. Can I apply a pre-emerg at the same time as the WBG? Do you have any rec's for pre-emrg? And what about getting some lime down along with them.

I've been reading up a bit and seems like I should focus on weed control now, then fertilize a little later when it's warmer. Many others say to wait for fall to deal with seeding since there is a higher chance the young turf may die in summer months.

As for nuking the place and starting from scratch, I have been tempted, but I'll hold off until I have more time/resources to level some of the low spots etc. first.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@SantiCazorla ...

Thanks for the reply and input. Seems like now would be a good time to use the WBG since I Have heard some cases of those products causing harm during hotter months. Can I apply a pre-emerg at the same time as the WBG? Do you have any rec's for pre-emrg? And what about getting some lime down along with them.

I've been reading up a bit and seems like I should focus on weed control now, then fertilize a little later when it's warmer. Many others say to wait for fall to deal with seeding since there is a higher chance the young turf may die in summer months.

As for nuking the place and starting from scratch, I have been tempted, but I'll hold off until I have more time/resources to level some of the low spots etc. first.


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@gerardr 
Welcome to TLF!
If you can find preemergent without fertilizer, I would apply it when the forsythia blooms, which is rapidly approaching our area. Check better garden centers, Site One, and online. I have seen some barely beginning to bloom near my town, but not yet for the one in my neighbor's yard by my back fence.

Since your work schedule is packed, the fewest applications of any material, would be helpful to you. So, if you applied straight Dimension (Dithiopyr) at a low rate soon, and Greenview Spring Fairway Fertilizer with crabgrass preventer in 4-5 weeks (blue bag, available at better garden centers and HD online),
https://www.homedepot.com/p/GreenView-17-lbs-Fairway-Formula-Spring-Fertilizer-With-Crabgrass-Preventer-2129823/304492480?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CD28O%7C28-2_FERTILIZERS%7CNA%7CPLA%7CFixed%7c71700000041079887%7c58700004701920661%7c92700039807472304&gclid=Cj0KCQjwkIzlBRDzARIsABgXqV9Rw1q34ltFN0A7P5MZ-pn9f6NKGwooSLe5mapIT3cUL9NYgO6gWKwaAm1wEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds
you should have season long protection with a split app, and apply a higher quality fertilizer with a lot of slow release nitrogen (about 70%), if I remember correctly. This should cover you with enough N for the spring, without having the flush growth go out of control, when you have no time to mow.

You can save the time to put your fall plan together and do your homework for seed selection, fertilizer, etc., for your fall overseed.

Good luck!


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@Chris LI

Thanks for the input. This sounds like a reasonable plan. Would you recc. additional fert. application during the summer (I've heard people using milo around each major summer holiday). I'll look up the dimension preM, but does it control the majority of weeds in our area in addition to crab grass?

Also wondering if it will be safe for me to get down some post emerg along with a moss killer to deal with current weeds/moss as stated in the OP-I'm thinking post-emerg and moss killer now, either same time or shortly before the dimension, then 4-5 weeks later, put down the greenview as you've stated. Maybe get some milo down later toward early/mid july. Then I can start to research and plan for fall.

Rookie question, need I mow before starting any of these applications? A friend told me to mow shorter now, before starting to apply the pre emerg and then mow high going forward as needed.


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

@gerardr

Yes you can use WBG now along with a preM.

I would hold off on any fertilizer or lime until you do a real soil test(get results back in a weeks time) not a diy kit from HD/Lowes. Depending on your phosphorus level you might not be able to use Milo.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@SantiCazorla

Any suggestions on where I can get that soil test done on Long Island? My new plan is to try a straight preM with the weed b gone, then go with green view weed and feed with crab grass control later. This buys me time to get a test done.


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

Chris LI knows what he's talking about so following his advice is an excellent plan.

As for soil test. I would choose one of Cornell since they are our local coop or Waypoint because that's what most on TLF use. I used Agro-One this year but wasn't satisfied with how they presented my results. Next year I'm going with either Cornell or Waypoint.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@SantiCazorla 
Thanks I'll look into it.

I'm having some problems finding dimension pre emergent. One or two places are selling 2 1/2 gallon bottles for over $700. That's a little more than I need to have on hand and more than I can spend right now. I did find some Dithiopyr online in packets, but I'm not sure I will be able to mix and use it properly, or get the product in time (I really wanna get preM down this weekend).

Could I use a big box preM like halts now, then still use something like this https://www.homedepot.com/p/GreenView-18-lbs-Fairway-Formula-Spring-Fertilizer-Weed-and-Feed-and-Crabgrass-Preventer-2129192/304492449?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CD28O%7C28-2_FERTILIZERS%7CNA%7CPLA%7CFixed%7C71700000041079887%7C58700004701920661%7C92700039807472304&gclid=Cj0KCQjws5HlBRDIARIsAOomqA0NM2VgeQir8pLw7P3e4-eoENl2wFHijGCo2qFgH6IC8OxyjOJT9WoaAqy0EALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds come later in spring ??


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

If you aren't used to spraying I'd stay with granular apps.

You can get this at SiteOne. They have locations in Bethpage, Deer Park and Holtsville so a 20min drive from anywhere on the Island and you're good.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@SantiCazorla

Seems like a good product. Are you saying to use that now? I thought the plan was to stay away from fertilizer for now? I also found this at HD https://www.homedepot.com/p/LESCO-50-lb-19-0-7-Dimension-Crabgrass-Preventer-080311/100185665. Any thoughts which one?

Thinking I'd use one of those now and then the greenview product later in mayhttps://www.greenviewfertilizer.com/store/p/GreenView-Fairway-Formula-Spring-Fertilizer-Weed-and-Feed-and-Crabgrass-Preventer__21-29192.aspx#.XKUTBHdFzIU . This would give me that "split app" of dithopyr that ChrisLI mentioned, and also get a second attack on crabgrass later in the season.

I had a serious issue last year, and I doubt any single, one time app of anything is going to keep it all at bay.


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

It's really nitrogen you shouldn't be applying this early in the season. You want the grass to wake up on it's own so holding off on the N until after a few mows is preferable.

The analysis of the one I linked is 0-0-7, there's no N so there's no risk of pushing top growth with that. The one you linked is you 19-0-7, still too early for 19% N in our area.

Yes, you can still use Greenview as your second split app since it has the same active ingredient as the lesco 0-0-7, Dithipyr.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

Ok awesome. I think that's the plan. I'll try to grab some of the Lesco without N tomorrow and get that down with the weed b gon before the weekend is up. Great advice TY


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

:thumbup:


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

SantiCazorla said:


> Chris LI knows what he's talking about so following his advice is an excellent plan.
> 
> As for soil test. I would choose one of Cornell since they are our local coop or Waypoint because that's what most on TLF use. I used Agro-One this year but wasn't satisfied with how they presented my results. Next year I'm going with either Cornell or Waypoint.


I think Waypoint might be a little more helpful, as someone at work used Cornell, and you need significant experience and expertise interpreting Cornell's results (which I don't have). The person I was working with preferred UMass' soil test report over Cornell's, but we are obligated to use them. I reviewed them and some they had some good technical information, they weren't easy to interpret. I have some knowledge and experience, and had difficulty determining some relationships between data. I think you need a class in soil biology or horticulture science to get the most out of one of their reports.

I just looked at @Pete1313 's soil test report for 2019 (using Waypoint), where he compared it to his 2018 results. They were easy to read and interpret and have two different recommendations based upon two types of kbg maintenance. Waypoint's report appears to be user friendly. Maybe Pete can elaborate.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Welcome to TLF @gerardr!

I like using Waypoint. They are easy to read and I think the recommendations are pretty good for the bluegrass lawn crop code... not sure about the athletic field one and why in my case it is recommending more P. The cool thing is you can change your crop code as much as you want and it will generate new rec's. The report is useful to someone just starting out with soil testing, but has all the data and testing methods for the more experienced as well.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@Pete1313 @Chris LI

Thanks for the info on soil testing. Just by looking on the website though, it looks like waypoint homeowner soil testing is not available in NY. Maybe I'm missing something. https://www.waypointanalytical.com/HomeOwners


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

You can send your soil to any one of their labs.
https://www.waypointanalytical.com/Contact
I suggest starting with the closest one to you. Call them and ask for pricing on the S3M soil test. Last year some of their labs had different pricing. Not sure if that is still the case, but should only be $16.50 for that test. If not, check the next closest lab. Sampling, filling out the form, and submitting are easy. If you decide to do the test and have any questions on the process, let me know.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If sending by mail; USPS charges the same for the small box to anywhere in USA. Send it to their Memphis facility (HQ).


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

If you send it to Iowa it is $21.40 for the S3m.


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## trick (Oct 23, 2018)

You can send it to Rutgers for $20

https://njaes.rutgers.edu/soil-testing-lab/


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

iowa jim said:


> If you send it to Iowa it is $21.40 for the S3m.


I was just invoiced $16.50 + $1.16 tax from Iowa for the S3M. Make sure they are quoting the S3M and not the S1H lawn and garden homeowner one. Odd that the homeowner one is not as complete(no micros) but costs more.



g-man said:


> If sending by mail; USPS charges the same for the small box to anywhere in USA. Send it to their Memphis facility (HQ).


Out of curiosity, why do you recommend Memphis over a closer facility.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Pete1313 it is their headquarters. They can do more tests than the other facilities. If you can drive and drop of the samples, then use the close one. Otherwise with mail, distance is not a factor.

For example, Memphis can do the sw1, which is better for high pH soils (AA, bicarbonate P).


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

@g-man, I see. I just thought it was generally recommended to pick a reputable lab closest to your location that had the set of tests that you were looking for... apologize for going off topic @gerardr.


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Pete1313 said:


> iowa jim said:
> 
> 
> > If you send it to Iowa it is $21.40 for the S3m.
> ...


Pete i was quoted $21.40 for the S3M test and i talked to them on the phone yesterday. I will let you know what they charge me i am sending my samples in today.


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## KHARPS (Jun 21, 2018)

Here is what the Atlantic,IA location is charging me:


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

Ok I'll be looking into the soil testing a little more this weekend on my day off. Sounds pretty reasonable.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

A little update to the whole preM sitiuation. I went to Site one yesterday after work and they no longer sell the granular dimension. I also discussed my current winter/early spring weed issues with the sales rep who seemed pretty knowledgeable. He sold me 2 products and suggested how to use them. The first is granular "lock up" post emergent with 0-0-7. He's says to put this down now on the next day where rain isn't In the forecast for a couple days after. The next bag is granular barricade with 19-0-7. He says I should put this down a week or two after I apply the lock-up.

Given the current weather on LI, this means doing the lock up post emerg probably this sat/sun. Then the preM barricade would go down maybe the following weekend.

Does this sound like a decent plan? I feel like I want to get the preM down now but at the same time I have a pretty good amount of active broad lead weeds now which look horrible. I wouldn't wait more than a week after the postM to do the barricade, which means I'd be getting it down around April 15th.

As a side note, I like that barricade can be applied in beds, as the weed issue was also serious around my arbs that I planted last spring.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm not sure what the site one rep is talking about with a "lock up". It is not the standard practice to apply anything but prem. What are the active ingredients.

Barricade is the brand name for prodiamine. I would apply the prem this weekend. Please check the label, since NY has restrictions on rate. It was my understanding that they did not sell prem to homeowners.


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

g-man said:


> It was my understanding that they did not sell prem to homeowners.


I've had no issues buying granular Dimension from SiteOne.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@g-man the "lock out" is the bag of lesco post emergent with 0-0-7 https://www.gallivancompanies.com/pdfs/herbicides/lockup-extra-2-herbicide-sds.pdf

I told him I have a decent amount of weeds already visible (bittercress, some other purple ones and several others I don't recognize). He said go with that post emergent now and then follow a week or so later with the PreM.

The preM he sold me is lesco, basically barricade with fert. http://www.michaelgrimmservices.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Stonewall.pdf

He claims I can get rid of the weeds I see now and that doing the pre emergent before the end of April would be fine. Anyway I linked the product labels.

@Alex1389 according to the rep, they no phased it out and now only sell the very expensive liquid concentration which is not available for sale to public.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

Looks like Home Depot has the lesco dimension granular in stock, but it's 19-0-7. 
https://www.homedepot.com/p/LESCO-50-lb-19-0-7-Dimension-Crabgrass-Preventer-080311/100185665


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

iowa jim said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> > iowa jim said:
> ...


Pete: I called them again and this time they quoted me the $16.50 for the S3M test so i don't know what happened on the first call.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

iowa jim said:


> Pete: I called them again and this time they quoted me the $16.50 for the S3M test so i don't know what happened on the first call.


Most likely they quoted the S1H by mistake which is $20 + tax. Last year I submitted my samples, I filled out the sheet and checked S3M. When they received it, I checked online and they had it marked for S1H. They assumed I was a homeowner and that is what I wanted. A quick call changed that.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Alex1389 I think the restriction is on prodiamine 65% not to homeowners. DoMyOwn wont sell it to NY. The bags of granular become expensive for large properties.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@gerardr They lock up product they sold you is what is typically called "weed and feed". It is a mix of fertilizer with 2,4-d, dicamba and Penoxsulam. You will be better off with buying a concentrate Weed B Gon type product and treating the weeds (per the Cool Season Guide below). Due to the extra nitrogen, you should not apply this bag and the prem bag too close to each other (4-week apart).

Some of the weeds you describe will need a different herbicide. Tryclopyr will be faster to deal with them (violets). It is sold as a concentrate on most big box stores as Weed B Gon CCO (Clover, Chickweed and Oxalis).


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## Alex1389 (May 23, 2018)

@g-man gotcha

@gerardr that's weird because I bought 0-0-7 granular .15% Dimension about two weeks ago for my parents from SiteOne.


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## SantiCazorla (Sep 2, 2018)

My understanding is Domyown doesn't have a license to sell prodiamine wdg 65 in NY. It is legal but difficult to find. I had to use amazon for my 5lbs purchase.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@g-man 
I know it's strange to me but I've called each 2 site one stores (and have been to one) and each said they don't have it. Not sure what's going on.

Still, I'm kind of feeling like I should worry about pre emergent first and maybe water it in with some of the hose-end weed b gon. Then I could follow up later with the green view weed and feed with dimension as I had originally planned.

My main question is could I use the granular dimension with the 19-0-7 now, along with the weed b gon ? If so, I think I'll call site one tomorrow and see if I can return the barricade and lockup products.

I could also ditch the weed and feed and use the barricade preM now. But I really like the idea of greneviews weed and feed with crabgrass control. Any problem with using barricade now and then the green view weed feed later in May? (2 diff preM as the green view has dimension )


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

@gerardr

Check this link out: 
https://www.domyown.com/new-york?cat=188

It's the NY herbicide page on Do My Own. They carry both dithiopyr and prodiamine products.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

I guess I'm just worried that it may take too long to ship from do my own. Even when the site one rep told me I can do the preM in a couple weeks, most others tell me I better get it down now.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would do the prem now. Use either dimension or barricade.


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## gerardr (Apr 2, 2019)

@ G-man

I think I'm going to hang on to the barricade with 0-0-7, and I'm going to spread that tomorrow AM after work, or possibly sunday AM. I am going to water that in with some weed-b-gon, hopefully to kill off some existing weeds.

As for the "lockup", that is getting returned. I will follow up later in the season, around memorial day, with greenview weed and feed+ crabgrass preventer. This way, I will have the barricade down now, and then add N with the greenview as well as kill off any new boradleafs + add extra preM protection. https://www.homedepot.com/p/GreenView-36-lb-Fairway-Formula-Spring-Fertilizer-Weed-and-Feed-and-Crabgrass-Preventer-2129193/303992543?cm_mmc=Shopping%7CG%7CBase%7CD28O%7C28-2_FERTILIZERS%7CNA%7CPLA%7CFixed%7c71700000041079887%7c58700004701920640%7c92700039807472157&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5JO6n6a64QIVAlcNCh3kWAwZEAQYAiABEgLfxPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

The only dimension product I can find has 19 N, and you've all advised against using N this early.

Once I get out there, I'll update the thread with a few pics.


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