# tttf for 2018 overseed attempt



## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

So I am going to try an early dormant slit seeding and be willing for it to be a waste of money if it all dries out and wilts in the summer. Some parts of it where I have bare dirt I will irrigate to make sure it gets through. The rest of it I will seed again in fall.

The big question i have is what seeds to buy and use. I visited my local Site One store and they have a product called Gateway Green TTTF Blend. It is ,tax included about $68 per 50 lb bag and with 50 to 75% coverage which I have they call out 4-6 lb per thousand sqft.

The cultivars are Kingdom , Stetson II , Padre , Reunion. Percentages not given. Blue Tag quality. LESCO 26-82-102

Anybody have any opinions, thoughts , comments


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

It sounds like you are well aware that you are taking a big risk with this plan.
I'm not familiar with the cultivars you mention, but Kingdom was included in recent NTEP trials (the others were not). If it were me, I would shop around for a better performing cultivar, especially since you are going to have some things working against you. 
I would make sure that the crop percentage is 0.00 (it probably is, but worth a double-check) and also seed lightly. It's not only heat that will bother the grass (doesn't MO get really humid?).

I'll be interested to know what you do and what your efforts produce.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

@gene_stl

My thought is, don't do it. There is no advantage to dormant seeding imo. You throw the seed down, and it germinates - at some point. When do you apply fertilizer? When do you apply pre-emergent? When is it safe to use herbicide? When is it safe to walk on? Should you water? When can you mow? These are questions with no answer when you dormant seed, because you give up all control to Mother Nature.

Now, could it work? Sure. But I think you're better off waiting until the weather warms up, seeding, and then you know exactly what's going on.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I do hear (and even completely believe and agree with), all the warnings. But, I am reminded of a handyman friend of mine, who helped me renovate my first house 40 years ago. He used to say, "Do SOMETHING, even if it's wrong!" That is the situation I find myself in.
The lawn looks so horrible I can't even bring myself to post pictures of it. I am going to hammer it with Tenacity and Tupersan early and Quinchlorac later. I will also spot with broadleaf. I am going to drop some Milorganite and Mole Scram. Maybe some bone meal and blood meal to discourage the moles and the deer. And although the place is really too big to irrigate I will hand water the areas where there is bare dirt, which is a lot. I know it's a calculated risk with poor odds.

If I had been able to fall seed this last fall, it would have been just as bad. We are still listed as drought and for months we were in "severe drought". Any seed put down last fall would have withered. We usually get good rains here in the spring. Almost always. I can't let that water go unused.

It does get pretty humid here but not like say, the Gulf Coast.

There is not much walking on this lawn. Since there is some grass there I would mow it whenever it gets bushy. ( I got a nastygram from the city after I moved in but before I got either of my two mowers delivered , the new Hustler or the old Scott's out of the hospital) Maybe the existing lawn will act as a "nurse grass" though that concept seems mostly discredited. Lesco claims zero weed and crop seed and that all the components did well in NTEP trials. I guess I will look that data up. If I use this Lesco seed I was thinking about five lb per thousand.

Does anyone have any tttf seed mixes or varieties they like and recommend. I have to say that Jonathan Green produces great advertising and even old dogs like myself who should know better can be affected. But their seed is like twice as much as everybody else.

I will report what happens in either case. Wish me luck. I think the real issue is whether I should bite the bullet and install irrigation and then pay $41.00 per 1,000 cubic feet of water. Or spend 10,000 on an irrigation well if that is even possible.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Being from St. Louis, a spring seeding is unlikely to survive the summer unless you irrigate - a lot. I have never had good results with dormant seeding. With either form of spring seeding, you will not be able to use a pre-emergent and in a high weed pressure lawn the weeds will take over. That will result in more weeds this fall that you will need to deal with when you can successfully overseed.

My advice would be to plan on killing your weeds this spring and summer and plan for a fall seeding. Even a fall seeding will almost certainly need supplemental irrigation to do well in St. Louis. Lawn care is a long term project and often the knee jerk, do something approach will not do as well as a carefully organized plan.

Depending on your municipality, you may not be allowed to have an irrigation well.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

If you do go for it, I would advise keeping a gallon of propiconazole on hand and spraying every 2 weeks from May all the way until September. That young fescue will get slaughtered by fungus quickly given the amount of frequent watering you will have to do to keep it alive.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

j4c11 said:


> If you do go for it, I would advise keeping a gallon of propiconazole on hand and spraying every 2 weeks from May all the way until September.


He's going to need to rotate fungicide classes at least every few applications if he does that...to prevent resistance.

Gene- You obviously know what you're doing and what the tradeoffs are, so if you're ok with it failing (worst case), give the Spring seeding a try. You can use your own judgment to figure out when it's ready enough to handle a real Pre-M.

My own best Spring seeding worked well. I watered almost every day through the Summer. It worked out great until I accidently killed most of it the following year while trying to kill weedy grasses. Hopefully it's not totally dead...we will see in a few months.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Green said:


> It worked out great until I accidently killed most of it the following year while trying to kill weedy grasses


 

@gene_stl , re your irrigation question: You have a very large lot. Between mowing, watering, applying fungicide(s), fertilizer etc, you are going to be very busy. Have you considered beautifying half of your lot rather than the whole property? I know of plenty of people who focus on their front yards only. Confining your target lawn space might go a long way in resolving your watering dilemma.

Also, I don't have any experience using products from the Jonathan Green line, so I can't provide much of a comment. I agree that they do a nice job with their advertising. I looked into their seeds last year. I couldn't find any reviews that were utterly negative but, of course, that really doesn't mean much.

You could always use the seed distributors that many of us forum members use...e.g., Super Seed Store, The Hogan Company. Also, it is a good idea to have a list of some of the top-performing cultivars for you area per NTEP trials if you are going to order a custom blend.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I appreciate everyone trying to talk me out of making a mistake.

I just spoke with the guy that was analyzing my soil samples. The good news is that it is silty rather than clayey. But not much organic matter and pH about 6. He thinks it was good quality fill dirt put in when there was a major addition to the house in 1997. When I mentioned dormant seeding he too scrunched up his face.

Maybe I'll just throw down Milorganite and strong pre EM and wait till fall. I think I will try the bare spots though. I can keep them moist. Work on running the moles off and aerate.

I did think of partial renovation. But in the front that would look bad. Maybe the back only. I told my wife I would get a croquet lawn for her.

I am going to do further research on cultivars. 
I didn't know there were any conazoles for lawn use. There are a large number of them used in human medicine. Usually they are relatively pricey even over the counter stuff.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

gene_stl said:


> Usually they are relatively pricey


The fungicides for lawns aren't cheap either  --or, perhaps I should say that the prices don't make me feel good.
I've managed to avoid using them so far, but I don't know how long that will be a sensible option.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

I understand your desire to do something, even if it's wrong. My step-father used to say the same thing to me! Lol

I'm with all the others here, skip the spring seeding. If you want a good project for this spring and summer work on amending the soil. A good soil will do more to help you in the long run. It'll retain moisture longer, and make for healthier plants which will fight off fungus better. Read up on Humic Acid, and watch thegrassfactor's Youtube videos on Humic. Also, knock down the weeds, and hone your spraying technique.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I have been watching those videos and I wonder how many members here have tried it. Is all that stuff they say about it true? Even The Lawn Care Nut is gettin on the band wagon. I would be very interested in peoples opinions and experiences on that.

The spring seeding would amount to about a $200 bet. And more or less one weekend of work. On the one hand I am very inclined to listen to everyone here. On the other hand I just printed out a "Lawn and Turf Management" booklet from the university of Missouri extension center. It said winter overseeding isn't a bad idea. I also yesterday sent an email to the county extension agent who teaches the Master Gardener program. Since he is local I will weight his response heavily and will report it here.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@gene_stl A spring seeding is possible, but it is a pain. I had to do it after a concrete patio being pour in the backyard. The two main issues are 1) keeping it alive and 2) the weeds.

Here is an article from Purdue around how to do it. http://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/AY/AY-20-W.pdf The article is a bit dated since it talks about siduron instead of Tenacity.

I would use tenacity at seed down, at 30days and then a PreM at ~8week since seed down. This should limit the weeds, but not perfect. I would have a solid plan for watering and a careful eye for fungus (with fungicide at hand). Based on your irrigation comment, it seems that you need to work the watering approach.

To be clear, you are planing on an overseed instead of a reno, correct? A reno involves killing all of your yard with round up and starting from scratch.

Just because it is possible to have a successful spring seeding it doesnt mean you should do it. The probabilities of success are low, the expense is high (watering thru the summer), the time commitment and the loss opportunity to address other issues (soil); are the main reasons why experience tells us to seed in the fall.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

> Just because it is possible to have a successful spring seeding it doesnt mean you should do it.


That is the crux of the situation ,right there. I am talking about overseeding an existing, thin and weedy lawn ,not killing it and starting over.

I get the impression from the comments that Tenacity is relatively wimpy. I guess compared to Dithiopyr and Prodiamine.
What about quinclorac (Drive XLR8)? One of the university papers I think the one from Wisconsin says that its pretty easy on seedlings. I guess you don't want a root pruner even after germination.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Tenacity is used at seed down. It prevent and kills most weeds, but it allows the grass to germinate (if you follow the application rates). It is a great product and a game changer when it was allowed introduced. Dithiopyr or prodiamine will prevent anything(good, bad and the ugly) from developing. Quinclorac could be used on some weeds after a couple of mowing of the new grass. So, yes you could start with Tenacity, then Drive, then a PreM.

I think we need to see your thin lawn/weedy lawn. Post a picture and we could help with the decision.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

g-man said:


> I think we need to see your thin lawn/weedy lawn. Post a picture and we could help with the decision.


+1.

I always go back to this post I saw a few years ago... a little bit goes a long way.



> Just wanted to share a few before/after pics. "Before" pics are from last fall, "After" pics are from last week.
> 
> I would have posted this under the Reno topic, but it's not a reno. It's not even an overseed. After finding this site last fall, all I did over the last 6 months was: hand pull as much crabgrass as I could find; apply Oceangro; apply 2,4D; start cutting at the highest mower setting. The random Northeast mix of grasses did the rest all by itself.
> 
> ...


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

That one reminds me of my lawn in certain spots. It also reminds me of what I did at my first house which was about double that lawn size. (I also was 40 years younger  )
I did set the new zero turn to its hightest setting all season except at the very end when I started ratcheting down one quarter inch per mow. I still had two notches to go when the season ended. I think that definitely helped the lawn. But our severe drought didn't. I will try and get some pix today.


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## kds (Apr 28, 2017)

I did a spring rehab last year, and it was hard to keep the grass alive through the summer. Much of it died of drought. A bunch of it also died from disease. I consider it money down the drain. Seed, water (lots of it), equipment rental, fertilizer, Tenacity, fungicide. I wish I hadn't done it. You have to do things _just right_ and fall into some luck for things to go the way you want.

Tenacity is also great. No concerns about it being wimpy, it worked really well keeping the weeds out for me.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

Here is a gallery of about 27 pitchers:

https://postimg.cc/gallery/34j43n81m/

In our family we have a saying, "Whether you're rich or poor , it's nice to have money!"
The guy across the street is doing a REAL renovation. I have been hearing dump trucks and caterpillars and komatsu's
dumping and scraping and leveling.
https://postimg.cc/image/sm1sbyq7t/
He built those gates. The house is like a block away. He built a building with bowling alleys and indoor rifle range. I think that is the building with the solar cells. He wanted to put in a heliport but the city wouldn't allow it. The blue little flag is my property line more or less.

If you want to tour the situation start at the lowest number image and just go sequentially. I appreciate everyone's input.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Hey, don't take pictures of my property. I don't get why the city did not approve my heliport. 

I saw the picture and would say that 90% of the lawn looks good. Prem and fertilizer and it will be great. The sections like image 640 look to have weeds. I would overseed only those areas now and in the fall.


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

630 & 640 looks to have Nimblewill in it. Can i talk you into taking a closer shot of those fluffy patchy areas?


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I presume the nimblewill is the green stuff. I'll get some better shots. Tomorrow.
Thanks!
Fortunately Nimblewill is susceptible to Tenacity.

This product, Pylex, was mentioned, for post emergent control. * $460/8 oz* It works at 1.5 oz /acre. But WOW! Post emergent.
https://www.domyown.com/pylex-herbicide-p-4078.html


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## LawnNerd (Sep 2, 2017)

Sorry, no Nimblewill is the brown bushy stuff that's standing straight up. Tenacity is my herbicide of choice for nimblewill ( i have it too), but with you doing a major reseed this fall, you may want to skip the Tenacity on the nimblewill and save it for your reseed. But, that's all a little premature. Get a close-up of the areas circled in red.



Oh yea, skip the pylex. I am fighting with Bermuda in my lawn, and Pylex is the recommended herbicide. I'm trying something else right now, but if this doesn't work i'll round up the whole area and reseed before i go and blow $500 bucks on an herbicide.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

I looked up nimblewill and yes I have a lot of that stuff. I think sometimes I thought it was crabgrass although it is not as totally awful looking as crabgrass. I am going to apply Tenacity and Tupersan both. (Tupersan is only for crabgrass). Yeah Pylex is pretty pricey and would be about Plan D or E.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

gene_stl said:


> Yeah Pylex is pretty pricey and would be about Plan D or E.


I'm not pushing Pylex in any way, but anytime the price of Pylex comes up, I always recall a post by thegrassfactor:

Everyone is concerned about price, but it comes in around 55$/acre to apply with surfactant and triclopyr. That's cheaper than any fertilizer I use.
[/quote]

I try to temper that perspective with my own  when I see the price tag.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

That is an excellent point. Perhaps Pylex is one of those things that should have a group buy. It seems like Colonel K0rn has figured out where to get those measuring bottles from, so it would be one step easier.
By the time I am done Tenacity will be close but you don't have to buy almost $500 worth to use it. I am probably going to apply it on the high side this season.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

gene_stl said:


> Perhaps Pylex is one of those things that should have a group buy.


Yes, I think this is a great strategy for us 'residential users.'



gene_stl said:


> I am probably going to apply it on the high side this season.


I love Tenacity. In my experience, it accomplishes its intended purpose. I would highlight this


g-man said:


> but it allows the grass to germinate (if you follow the application rates)


High application rates can damage the grass.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

Had the tree guys out this last week. They took out a 90 foot tall sweet gum, a hollow silver maple that was four feet in diameter three pines and a walnut and trimmed everything else and got rid of all the honeysuckle. Now I have some huge mud flats and lots of areas where they drove cherry pickers over the lawn. NOW I can get to work.

I went to Rural King this afternoon. What a great store. They have almost everything. They didn't have any Tenacity but they did have lots of concentrates of things we could use. Sprayer parts galore

I got the *last* 50 lb bag of Hound Dog 8 TTTF. I got a blend too that has PRG in it hoping it will establish quickly. They had 41% generic Roundup for $18 a gallon. I picked up some 100 mesh strainer with check valves. The Mrs. sat in the car reading so I cut the visit short. But I will be going back soon. They have Echo and Hustler and stuff for your tractor.

If you have one nearby and haven't been I urge you to go.


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## Budstl (Apr 19, 2017)

Did you get popcorn to eat while you walked around?


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

No, it smelled good but I was on a mission since the Mrs was in the car. Next time. While she sat in the car reading, she said while I was inside all the cars and trucks that we were parked next to turned over about three times. They were ringin those cash registers today.


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

Hi Gene-

So whats the latest plan, still going to spring overseed? I say go for it, as long as you treat it as a learning opportunity. Not sure what your temps are, but keep in mind you won't get germination until they get in the 50-60s. That prg might give you some quick fill in. Of course by seeding now you won't be able to put down a pre-m, and that will cause issues later.

What's your plan to deal with the weeds you have? You want to get rid of them in the spring so your lawn can thicken up for the summer. Again, seeding now limits your herbicide options. Without seeing the current condition of your lawn its hard to say whether spot spraying is the way to go or more of a blanket app with a spray or something like weed and feed.


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## gene_stl (Oct 29, 2017)

So I am fairly happy with how things are going. I got the Lesco powered Chariot hooked up with a Gregson Clark Sprayer Mate and have been spraying quite a cocktail of stuff. I started with Q4+ which is a premix cocktail of Quinclorac , Sulfentrazone and two broadleaf controls , 2,4,D and Dicamba. I added Tenacity to the mix.

A few days after my first spray I spotted what looked like a big about one foot by five inch patch of something that looked like crabgrass though it was very early. It looked so bad that I actually felt sorry for it though it was extremely ugly. The nimblewill patches have lit up white and seem to be dying.

I had lots of chickweed and dandelions and african violets. So after two weeks I bought a jug of Gordons Trimec and gave it a dose of that. It is thinning the broadleaves now. I also sprayed the back with this one since the back was a broadleaf hell. It really works great.

I mowed using the highest setting and now sedges are showing that they grow faster than everyone who is supposed to be there so this week when the rain slows down I am going to hit the sedges with more sulfentrazone (the Q4+ is only a half rate) and some sedgehammer or manage (halosulfuron) This will probably be a spot application although some spots may need the spray boom to hit them. In the backyard.

I am pleased that I didn't try to overseed the whole lawn because I actually have a pretty nice stand of unknown variety KBG. And plenty to do , although so far the rain has been cooperating. That is unlikely to continue in July and August.

So my question is, I bought some TTTF seed to put down. Should I only put it on bare spots. I think tttf and kbg play pretty well together. I got one of those bags of Hound Dog 8 at Rural King and they also have a four variety tttf mix which I bought a bag of. I have plenty to do with bare spots because I had trees taken out and scraped a bunch of thickets.

I have fertilized with Lesco starter (way early) and I have a couple of bags of Lesco Thrive (milo) waiting to get spread.
I threw some chelated Iron and Mn (Lesco ) into the last spray mix.

The ruts left by the tree service heavy equipment are trying to give a detached kidney on the zero turn and the spreader. 
I am hoping to aerate and verticut them down as time goes on. I don't want to kill this lawn because it really looked pretty good right after mowing.

Do any forum members who use Sprayer Mates or Franken clones have any tricks as far as doing your tank mixes? That part seems to be a much bigger pia than the spraying part. I am thinking about getting a 55 gallon plastic drum and intalling a sump pump in it to mix and agitate and then pump the mix into the Sprayer mate. Anyone doing anything like that?

I will post some more pictures and comparisons after I mow next time. I really love the way Tenacity lights up undesirable species. What a great drug!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Gene,

To my eye, KBG and TTTF look different enough that I don't like patches of one type or the other. If you can get the whole lawn overseeded with TTTF, that would probably be ideal.


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