# Bob Loblawn's 2021 & 2022 100% KBG Renovation (Northern IL)



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Hi all- taking the plunge and going for a fall renovation in my backyard this year. Here are some details.

Northern IL (Chicago North suburbs)

*Goal seed down date:* Week of August 2nd pending conditions

Renovating about 2000 Sq Ft in back yard this fall. A little less than half of the yard, as I did a spring renovation in the other half, which is coming in pretty well despite some unusual weather.

We have been in this house for 3 years and the backyard had Poa Annua all over that I decided a reno was a better path to take versus controlling with prodiamine. Current grass is KBG/fine fescue along with maybe some PRG. I really think the old owners seeded Poa A at some point because it wasn't just small patches - it was massive patches. Or maybe they just did not pay much attention to the lawn for years and the Poa A just took off and thrived in the shadier/wet areas.

I did spray multiple tenacity apps last spring (2020) and prodiamine late last summer and another app in fall - while I know it's a long term approach to battling Poa A, it was just too much to handle. Most of it still came back in spring 2021. I know there will be plenty of Poa A seeds in the soil that will likely germinate during the renovation and pop up next spring. But my ambition is that it will be more manageable. I plan to fallow in case that helps with multiple glypho apps.

The fall renovation area is a good mix of sun and shade, but definitely enough sun to attempt 100% KBG mix. There are some areas that get more shade under the trees, so I will be keeping an eye out in case I need to toss in some fescue. But my hope is to avoid and let KBG spread.

I purchased a seed mixture of 3 elite varieties from SSS in late April: 
-40% Bewitched
-40% Mazama
-20% Midnight

Hopefully the more shade tolerant Mazama (and Bewitched to some extent) will help the shadier areas under trees.

More to come in future posts - as I have begun the process, but will submit everything here for record keeping.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Here is the plan:

Mostly following the @g-man plan in the renovation guide. I have an 11-month old so there are a few steps I may need to forgo (e.g. more than 2x glypho apps). I'm stilling working from home until after Labor Day, so have the ability to keep a close eye on the reno.

I'm not mowing low- I'm going with rotary and looking to keep around 3-3.5" depending on time of year.

Pre-renovation I cut the grass down to about 2.5". I started the height lowering process a bit late, but that was about as low as I could go before scalping. Kept it at this height to ensure it was still green and growing for a nice glypho app.

My plan is to get seed down first week of August.

*Day 1: Glyphosate on 7/2 (COMPLETE). *Sprayed 6 gallons of glypho at 3 tbsp/300 SF rate per gallon of water, which was what is on the product label (compare-n-save 41%). Here are some pics that include the marker dye demonstrating where the cut off point will be.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*7/10:* by now, grass was looking nice and brown. Bag mowed the dead grass on 3rd then 2nd lowest setting to pick up as much as possible. I was running into some issues with the bagging on my mower - a good amount of grass was not getting sucked into the bag and acting like I was mulching. I took as a sign to sharpen my blades and spray the bag with some water to clean it out and help with airflow.

The week following we saw consistent rain and did not need to fallow much since the soil remained moist. The weather has been very weird this spring and summer. HOT and barely any in May and June. Then July hit and it cooled down and rained quite a bit. I'll take it I suppose.

*7/16*: grass is still very brown/dead looking. Very little areas of green/growth, despite the amount of precipitation over the last two weeks. Bag mowed on lowest setting - seems like bagging/mower issue from before has been solved. Although there is some grass that is still not bagging - perhaps this is just due to going so low and not getting my grass below 2.5" prior to the first glypho app.

By now I had planned for a second glypho app. However, the weather was too wet and I had to get stitches on my arm - would have been too much pressure carrying around the sprayer.

Stripes from 7/16 mow! I don't have a striper kit, so this is oddly satisfying to see.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Remainder of plan:

*This upcoming week (week of 7/19): *
-This is where my plan deviates slightly from @g-man's guide - I started glypho a bit late (4 weeks prior to seed down), so I think I will only get two glypho apps down
-I'm not seeing much green pop up through the dead grass right now after two weeks after first application, so I do not think another app of glypho makes sense quite yet.
-I think I may try dethatching/scarifying/raking with SunJoe to pull up more of the dead grass and expose more soil. Added pictures below to show how much dead grass is still there. If I do this, I will likely keep fallowing and delay glypho app until a few days before seed down.
-Irrigation audit: ensure each area of the reno is covered by irrigation
-Seeds: weigh and get seed in baggies for more accurate 
-Soil: as of right now, all seems OK with the soil. There may be a couple spots near concrete walkway that need some new
-Monitor the crap out of the weather forecast

*Week of 7/26*
-Fallow, fallow, fallow
-Watch forecast - I've always been eyeing the first week of August for seed down. But if we see favorable weather this week, I may aim for seed down a few days earlier. Right now forecast is in high 70s/low 80s. Pretty unlikely as my wife will be out of town this weekend (7/30-8/1) meaning I'm on dad duty and zero lawn work will get done aside from controlling irrigation from my phone.
-Irrigation won't be an issue and I am WFH for now - so monitoring isn't a worry. Fungus would be my biggest concern.

*Week of 8/2: SEED DOWN! (if not done earlier)*
-Rake the area, seed down, rake seed in and roll it in (plan to rent from Home Depot day of seeding)
-Spray tenacity
-No plan to add any type of fertilizer for phosphorus based on soil test

*Weeks after seed down: *
-I plan to follow @g-man renovation guide steps - so I will not list below. But there will be plenty of water, monitoring, drinking and probably praying to the grass gods. I plan to post updates accordingly.

Dead grass that remains after 7/16 mow (lowest setting)


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

If you look at the last image and the second to last, you will see green leaves. I think you should try to do more gly.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Sounds like a good mix and that you have a solid game plan. Best of luck to you!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> If you look at the last image and the second to last, you will see green leaves. I think you should try to do more gly.


Thanks @g-man . I definitely plan on one more gly app. Do you think it is worth doing this week before raking up more dead grass?

I was thinking I would use the SunJoe dethatcher to clear the dead grass a bit more. Then fallow and gly closer to seed down.

Do you think it is better to gly now then rake up the debris closer to seed down? Then another app of gly if needed?


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In my opinion, gly is cheap and i would do it before and after. Before so I get the stuff into the plants that are still green and after to get the new stuff.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Update on Mon 7/19:*

Took @g-man's advice and applied another app of gly. I figured I should probably listen to you since you know a thing or two  . A little sore around the stitches, but all is good for now. 4 gal sprayer isn't much different than an 11 month old in weight.

Applied at 3 tbsp/300 SF/Gallon, 6 total gallons. Luckily was able to cram in a spray session in the afternoon during an open window at work.

I always underestimate how long it takes to prepare all the gear for the gly app, actually spray, then clean-up. I'm using a backpack battery sprayer and cleaning out the tank 3x times after the application to be extra safe - that's the time-suck.

Pictures of gly app below. Used a little less blue marking dye closer in (hence the lighter color, but should not be missed spots)


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I read this too late, but for your next application you can use 4oz of gly in 1 gallon of water into 1ksqft. Spike the water with ams before adding the gly to get a even better kill.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thanks @g-man. Is the purpose of the AMS to drive growth before the gly kicks in? I have soluble Lesco urea (46-0-0) so I could use that too.

I've got about two weeks til seed down. Should I consider this approach near or on seed day? Or am I too late at this point? Or should I go run out and toss some urea granular tonight? Thanks for your help!


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

AMS helps with hardwater thus making more of the gly available. It also helps foliar feeding the grass. This feeding helps the plant grow thus moving the gly thru the plant/roots.

But don't worry about it. You don't need to do anything else.


----------



## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

Bob Loblawn said:


> cleaning out the tank 3x times after the application to be extra safe - that's the time-suck.


If you are going to continue to use this sprayer for non-gly apps, I'd test sprayed product in a small inconspicuous area first before you go and blanket the whole yard. Have heard stories of residual gly being left in the tank (even with multiple flushings) causing damage when not desired. If possible, have a "glyphosate only" sprayer (and mark it as such) to avoid this issue.


----------



## mribbens (Jul 13, 2018)

Following this as I am in Grayslake, should look great when you are done!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

jskierko said:


> Bob Loblawn said:
> 
> 
> > cleaning out the tank 3x times after the application to be extra safe - that's the time-suck.
> ...


Absolutely, great call. I tried the 3x washing method on another sprayer and all seemed ok. But you're right…should test it just to be safe. I'm going to use it to spray some bifenthren around the house foundation to keep out bugs. Hopefully that will dilute it even more. And I'll use it for tenacity app at seed down, so hopefully that dilutes even more.

Really hope not to learn the hard way!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

mribbens said:


> Following this as I am in Grayslake, should look great when you are done!


Thanks @mribbens, hoping for the best so I can tell my wife it was all worth it (she'll still roll her eyes…ha!).

Looks like you were planning a small reno area for the fall- is that still on the table for you? Would love to follow along.


----------



## mribbens (Jul 13, 2018)

I did do that, but I didn't input on here, I have kept up on my IG account. I went with the Barenbrug PRG Turf Star RPR, and it has come in nicely. I wasn't a reno, but a overseed, even though I beat up my existing grass pretty badly.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

As i wait patiently in preparation for the next renovation steps, I like to remind myself of the Poa A I'll hopefully be getting rid of (or much less of) in the future.

The first pic is what I'm reno'ing this fall. The second pic is what I attempted to renovate this spring. The spring reno side has much more shade and had to mix in fescue with KBG.

You can see all the discoloration or lighter color grass is where the Poa A is.

I took these pics Dec 26th 2019. I can't recall the weather that year but certainly seems like the lawn looked pretty green for winter.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Sunday 7/25*

After about a week of letting the gly kick in, I mowed the reno area on the lowest setting. Filled up maybe a full bag or so of dead grass. I think that might be the most I'm going to get.

With planned seed down 8/2, I'm really going to need to use the SunJoe dethatcher this week to get rid of more dead grass and open up some soil. You can see how much grass is still there in the pics below, so I'm thinking a few passes are in order. I'm nervous about bringing up Poa A seeds but hopefully tenacity at seed down (and a few weeks later per @g-man's guide) will help. Then prodiamine after 60 days.

Weather will be HOT this week (heat index upper 90s) until Thursday or Friday. So definitely not going to seed early. Week of 8/2 is looking good for seed down. High 70s / low 80s. Let's hope it sticks. I would go this weekend but riding solo on parent duty while the wife is out of town.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Looking good. It's tough getting up all that dead material. I have a sun joe dethatcher but like @lbb091919 mentioned in my journal as well, run that bad boy backwards to really pull up material. Going forward just doesn't quite cut it. Good luck!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> Looking good. It's tough getting up all that dead material. I have a sun joe dethatcher but like @lbb091919 mentioned in my journal as well, run that bad boy backwards to really pull up material. Going forward just doesn't quite cut it. Good luck!


Appreciate that tip - got my work cut out for me!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Mon 7/26*

With all dead grass, it's time to clear it out and get down to the soil. Dethatched using the SunJoe on middle setting ("0"). It pulled up a lot of material. @Liquidstone and @lbb091919 you guys are absolutely right on going backwards. I tried as best as I could. Bag mowed on lowest setting and emptied maybe 3 or 4 bags. But didn't get everything.

As an aside, we had to get our patio raised and the guys used concrete (instead of traditional mudjacking). They definitely got some of the concrete mix in the renovation area. I'll likely try to get a bag or two of soil there. They also ran some heavier machinery over an area we sodded (KBG) in the front yard a couple months ago. I was horrified. Pics to show the damage. Doesn't look as bad as it was originally, but worried it's damaged.





*Tue 7/27*
Got back to work with the SunJoe this evening. Put it on the -5 setting, which is technically supposed to be a setting for the scarifier. But picked up a lot more material. Bag mowed again but it's just not doing the trick. It was getting late so didn't use blower and manually raked the dead material into piles. Not. Fun. I'll be sore tomorrow.

For my spring reno, I did pass after pass after pass. So I'll probably try to do one more pass each day this week. Eventually will switch to scarifier.

Still plan to seed down next week. I have my work cut out for me to pull more dead material for good seed to soil contact. Dreading the raking, but no turning back. Luckily I took the whole week off from work next week.

After raking into piles


Still lots of material to pull up


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

It's no easy task, that's for sure. I went at it the whole time with the dethatching attachment on -10. Figured I'm trying to pull up as much junk as possible, why not? It may hinder life on that unit but it beat the heck out of using a manual rake! Looks like your sod should be fine, still a pain having to go through that!


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

I used the -10 setting too. Maybe give that a try for a couple passes.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thanks guys- hoping to get back out there this evening when it cools down a bit and will give it a go at the -10 setting


----------



## mribbens (Jul 13, 2018)

I would agree the -10 setting and walk super slowly with it, mine got right down to the soil in nearly all places. The key, for me, with the SunJoe is the slow walking, almost stopping as you go every few feet. Can't wait to see your progress.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

If not mentioned already, I found that cross-hatching with the dethatcher brings up a lot more material on the second pass.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Wed 7/28*

Got back out there with the SunJoe on -10 setting. Definitely much better. I only had time for one pass so this upcoming Monday I plan to do another pass or two. Bag mowing is a waste of my time at this point because I have to manually rake anyways. That's a good workout, but clears up the dead grass way better.



*Sat 7/31*

Calm before the storm. Wife is out of town and I'm on baby duty so don't have enough time to tend to the reno area. However, I mowed down the spring reno this morning during nap time and snapped a few pics. This is the first time I've mowed at a more regular height after lots of lower mowing to encourage spreading.

It's coming In pretty nicely. We have more tree coverage in this part of the yard, so it's been a journey of constantly adapting. I started seed down in April with a mix of about 80% bewitched and 20% mix of Mazama/Fine fescue. It started verrrrry slow but has matured well with lots of watering and patience. I did have to toss more fescue mix in certain areas along the way.

We had a big storm Thurs morning and a huge branch came down right in the middle. Got rid of the branch, but you can see the remnants of the leaves and branches that I've been too lazy to pick up by hand.

Also learned it's very very hard to keep up with weeds in a spring reno. Especially when tossing on N. Mostly broadleaf stuff. I'll spray them when temps get more consistent then put down prodiamine. This was a big area infested with Poa A which is why I wanted to test a spring reno on one side of the yard and a fall reno on the other side (also infested with Poa A - lucky me!!!).

We have a black walnut tree overhanging the spring reno- lots and lots of walnuts dropping. Gotta collect 'em before the squirrels start burying in the ground causing bumpiness.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Sun 8/1*

Got one more dethatch in on SJ at -10 setting. Think I've gotten everything up i can without overdoing it.

Seed down tomorrow.

May need to put on the irrigation slightly in the AM before seed down.

As of now the plan is to scarify for a little more loosening of soil (and create those grooves), seed down, rake in, roll, tenacity and water. May get some rain at 2pm tomorrow, but just a tiny bit.

Forecast looks good next few days, then will get hot Fri-Wed. Not overly concerned but will be keeping an eye on it and adjust watering as needed.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Mon 8/2 - SEED DOWN DAY*

I lightly watered the reno area because there were some really firm spots.

After watering, busted out the SunJoe and switched to the scarifier to create some grooves for spreading seed. Some areas got a little too moist but turned out ok (@g-man was following your journal and I thought 5-6 minutes would be fine…guess not in all spots). Raked away any last debris.

Spread 6 lbs of seed at 3lb / 1k sq ft. Tossed a little more down around the trees beds and edges, as I always have trouble in those spots. Raked in the seed and then rolled it in two different directions.

Lastly sprayed tenacity at 0.5 tsp / 1k SF / 1 gallon rate (doubled it for my 2k SF). This is the 4 oz/acre rate.

Got irrigation going and adjusted for a few drier spots. Watered a few times today.

BEER!

Man oh man I am tired. But the renovation guide from @g-man helped prepare well in advance so I feel like today went smoothly. It feels weird to have the fun part over. Now it's the waiting (impatiently) game. I'm off work this week so maybe I'll see some grass babies before going back to work next Monday.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Congrats man. Did you put anything on top like peat moss or compost? It's a lot of up front work to now just sit waiting patiently. Hard to even handle that nothing more but water is needed for the next couple weeks!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> Congrats man. Did you put anything on top like peat moss or compost? It's a lot of up front work to now just sit waiting patiently. Hard to even handle that nothing more but water is needed for the next couple weeks!


Thank you sir! Did not top dress with anything this time around. I looked for a peat spreader rental, but none of the big box stores had them. I've seeded without peat in the past (including the spring reno) and turned out just fine, so it was nice to save some time.

Love seeing your progress and can't wait to see you get seed down soon. We'll definitely need to have a virtual cheers!


----------



## kk07 (Sep 2, 2020)

Are you gonna run another round of dethatching and spray gly afterwards?


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

A virtual cheers will ensue no doubt! Good work.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

kk07 said:


> Are you gonna run another round of dethatching and spray gly afterwards?


No I already put seed down. Dethatching would undo all the raking and rolling the seed into the soil. Already did multiple apps of gly to kill everything, so I put down tenacity at seed down.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Just keep it moist. With the current colder weather, I'm only doing like 2 irrigations per day, but the heat should increase next week. Remember, frequency is more important than duration.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> Just keep it moist. With the current colder weather, I'm only doing like 2 irrigations per day, but the heat should increase next week. Remember, frequency is more important than duration.


Sounds like a plan and will do! My system is not perfect so I'm noticing some spots in the middle that dry faster (likely less water) versus closer in to the sprinklers. Will keep monitoring to see if I need to adjust.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Sat 8/7 - Day 6 after seeding*

Still no germination yet, but just staying patient. Maybe I will bust out the flashlight tonight. We had a good downpour twice yesterday, but I think washout was unlikely. Today is brutally hot (humid) and forecast looks to be that way through at least Thursday.

In the meantime my wife and I planted some begonias in a garden area off our patio just to fill some space as we figure out what we want to do there (seed/sod or potentially extend patio).

We also planted a limelight hydrangea tree in the backyard. Had to do some careful maneuvering/light stepping around the reno area although I'm sure it's all fine with no germination yet.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sun 8/8

If you zoom in enough you can see some green grass babies. Not much yet but hopefully these next few days will increase in germination.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

I see them! Bet that's a good feeling!


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Looking good Bob, here's to no washouts!!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Mon 8/9

Seeded one week ago today, so I guess that would make this Day 8 of seed down.

Snapped a few photos this morning, lots more green popping up! We got hit with some heavy downpour yesterday evening and again this morning/afternoon. Hopefully no washout worries, but I did noticed some water pooling in the back of the yard. So will keep an eye out in those spots.

Good news is I haven't had to turn on the sprinklers. Going to be very hot next few days, so I'll take a nice rain shower in preparation of the heat.

Oddly enough I saw most germination under trees which I thought was getting less sunlight. But those are also easier areas to access.


----------



## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

Woot.. grass babies.. it's that time of year. Congrats!


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Congrats on the grass babies!


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Congrats Bob. Always a relief to see those bad boys come through.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 8/12

Much more visible green in the reno this morning. But still not a ton towards the back of the yard. I still want to see some back there before starting the Germination Clock from @g-man's reno guide.

We have gotten pounded with rain and thunderstorms the last week. AHPS site is down in our area, but I'd guess about 5in of rain since last Friday. Much of it was sudden and fast. Man oh man this sure isn't for the faint of heart.

Today is our last very hot day, then we'll be in low 80s/high 70s for a stretch which should be perfect.

Keeping a close eye on what I believe to be the wet spots from the storms. If I don't see much germination in the next few days, I'll be tossing down more seed.

The first big storm hit us on Day 5 of seed down. I'm hoping that may have been long enough to avoid some washout since we got germination on Day 7.


----------



## Robs92k (May 9, 2021)

Hopefully all is well…nothing prettier than baby bluegrass!

And nothing that can't be fixed. Looking good so far.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Sat 8/14 (6 days after first germination, 13 days after seed down)*

Seeing more germination and green in the spots that were already doing ok.

Still not seeing much in the middle of the lawn and I'm not exactly sure why. I suspect it may be because it is a bit wetter there. It is definitely where the water pooled from all the storms we had this past week (3-4" in total, but came in bursts). I don't think there was washout in this middle area, so I'm going to be patient for another few days. Weather is looking good.

This past week was rainy and gloomy so I didn't see as much progress that I would have expected with more sun. I may have also overwatered out of caution- was worried of drying out.

Definitely had some washout into the garden beds, so will toss more seed around those areas.

@g-man, I looked back at some reno threads from last year (namely @synergy0852) and it looks like you suggested waiting about 3 weeks after seed down to assess the need to toss down more seed. You think that's still the move here? Thanks!


----------



## synergy0852 (Jun 30, 2018)

@Bob Loblawn if I had to do it again I would've tossed seed in my worst spots earlier. The second seeding didn't make it through the winter.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

synergy0852 said:


> @Bob Loblawn if I had to do it again I would've tossed seed in my worst spots earlier. The second seeding didn't make it through the winter.


Thanks for the advice @synergy0852 . I went ahead and tossed 2lb of seed in some of the bare areas.

We didn't get any rain last night, but the temps are cooling down to 60s overnight. Noticed the renovation was pretty damp this morning. So I slightly watered in seed, but will be cutting back on total water for a bit. Will continue to monitor as I WFH til after Labor Day.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

How many times a day are you watering Bob?


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

I've been trying to do it manually and as needed. Before any germination we had no rain, so I was watering between 5-10 min depending on the heat/wind.

Since we had rain this past week, it was more visual rather than scheduled.

I think there are just some spots the sprinklers aren't getting as well. So I see that and default to turning the sprinklers on. That's probably saturating the better coverage areas. I don't have a professional irrigation system, so I've been using two gear drive sprinklers and 2 impact sprinklers. Gear drive are for smaller coverage and impact are for larger coverage. Dry spot issues are with impact sprinklers (which I really dislike, but they are OK).

I am cutting down to 3 min sprinklers today and will be monitoring closely to see how often it's needed. I also need to stop being lazy and hand water some drier spots.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

I hear you on the lazy portion. There's just a couple spots In my yard that don't get as good of coverage as others. I tweaked the sprinklers again today and feel a little better about those spots. It looks like you've got some solid germination so far. I'm looking forward to watching it fill in!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Mon 8/16 - 8 DAG, 15 after seed down*

Spots that germinated early are doing well and continue to grow.

In general last week was a tough week. Even the spots that germinated early slowed down due to the rainy and gloomy weather.

Slowly starting to see more green up elsewhere. This week has favorable weather and should really help me understand how the reno is doing.

The reno is still young…so trying to temper my expectations a bit.

Added some pics but I could only snag them before and after work, so not the best shots. Will try to get better ones tomorrow.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Thurs 8/19: 11 DAG and 18 days since seed down*

Still slow going! But I'm noticing more green each day. There is still a huge area in the middle with very little to zero germination. This is the wettest area and I may back off watering for the time being and hand water the dry spots. You can see the low germination spots are where you can see the dead/gly'ed grass.

Because we had so much rain last week, I tossed more seed down last weekend. So we'll see if we get any germination in the next 3-5 days.

Getting a little nervous, but I keep trying to tell myself this has happened to many others whose renos have turned out just fine.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Hang in there Bob. Looks pretty dang good. I like your game plan.


----------



## jwill (Jun 12, 2018)

Looking good Bob! Congrats on the grass babies!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Sun 8/22 - 20 days after seed and 14 DAG*

The germinated areas still doing well. The area of green keeps getting bigger. All the corners of the reno are doing well, but still seeing little or no germination in the middle. It's still moist which means that area drains very poorly.

*Honestly I'm really not sure what to do, but open to any suggestions.*

I was thinking of adding some topsoil/compost mix there and adding more seed for one last effort. Either that or maybe taking the SunJoe scarifier through there to help it breathe.

I'll need to get down some N in the germinated areas in the next couple days. It's going to be hot and humid again through Wed so will likely hold til after then. Also need to get my first prodiamine app down in all other areas outside of the reno.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

You've already thrown additional seed down in your problem areas, correct? I know I've seen many on hear talk about thin spots filling in the next spring but not sure on bare. I'll let some more experienced guys share their thoughts.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would drop more seed in the middle section. Try to backoff irrigation so that area can dry up a bit (while keeping the rest from getting too dry).


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> I would drop more seed in the middle section. Try to backoff irrigation so that area can dry up a bit (while keeping the rest from getting too dry).


Monday 8/23

As they say on TLF, "when @g-man sayeth, Bob Loblawn do-eth"

Thanks g-man. I tossed down about 2lbs more of seed in the middle area.

Prior to tossing down seed, I wanted to do a little experiment. I brought out a garden fork and started poking holes in the moist areas for some poor man's aeration and for seed to get in there. That was extraordinarily exhausting and I gave up after two passes. I then busted out the SunJoe and scarified almost the remainder of the area. But I left some of the area undisturbed to see what happens there.

Figured I might as well give it a shot and see how those areas perform against each other.

I then walked over all the seed to get good soil contact.

I also disconnected all my sprinklers so I'm not tempted to fall back on them. All hand watering for a couple days at least.

Added some pics for visual reference. You can see I did have some germination in those moist areas, but other areas had nothing.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tues 8/24

Hand watered both yesterday and today. The really wet areas were finally starting to dry out and I was feeling cautiously optimistic about the new seed I dropped yesterday.

And then nature had other (unexpected) plans…

Storms hit us pretty abruptly and it's been raining since 4:15pm with a few breaks. Looks like we'll get some more storms and light rain into the evening and maybe tomorrow. I checked the new seed area during a break and I saw a good amount of seeds still in place.

Good thing I bought 20lbs of seed. If I'm doing math right I should have 10lbs left. 6lbs at seed down, 2lbs after initial washout and 2lbs yesterday.

In the interest of time I may toss down another 1-2lbs tomorrow to be safe in case of washout. We shall see.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Looks like the heavy stuff has passed for now at least and seeds seem to have stuck around. Those purple sections give me anxiety.

I'm also having a tough time getting my irrigation right and shut everything down today like you did. Gonna regroup in the morning and tweak some more.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Hoping for the best! No one ever said it'd be easy.

I think you're looking really good. I think the issue I ran into was that it rained 3-4" over a few days starting around Day 6 of seed down. While I saw good germination around my edges, the middle area was not drying out well- mainly because I kept watering the area to ensure other areas didn't dry out. I think the poor drainage was why the area in the middle saw little to no germination.

So without any major storms near you thus far (*knocking on wood*), I bet you're in much better shape than you think. I think we are all perfectionists (hence the renos)…but grass is resilient and grows with less than perfect conditions. E.g. grass growing in sidewalk cracks and limited irrigation.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 8/26

Germinated areas looking good pretty good. Got some more rain overnight. I am past due for spoon feeding N, but I've been holding off as it has been so hot and trying to cut back on water.

No visible germ yet on the middle area where I was having trouble with poor drainage. Hopefully by end of the weekend, otherwise it might be looking like PRG for me to close out the fall.

I'm wondering if I made a mistake not bringing in any topsoil/compost mixture. My soil test was healthy but maybe it was a missing piece.

I had some dead grass that I gly'ed around the spring in a different part of the yard with less sun. Put down some leftover bagged soil and compost and seeded the same KBG mix as my reno on Sat 8/21. With some starter fert on top. Already seeing solid germination. Which is why I'm just wondering if I messed up by not bringing in some good organic material in the bigger reno.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

What was your OM content on your soil test Bob? I would venture out and say that is not your issue but take that with a grain of salt. Thirsty Thursday discussed OM on a recent podcast (within a month ago) go check it out and give yourself some peace of mind. Your prep looked spot on for not needing to level. I have a spot in my Reno that is really lagging due to it staying much wetter than the rest and having a hard time drying out. I think that is your battle. Just throwing out some ideas.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thanks man, I appreciate the support! Yeah you are right, it would seem far-fetched for OM to be the issue considering the reno is coming in just fine in most other spots.

I'm probably getting in my head too much...Reno Brain! Logic is going out the window sometimes, haha.

Here is my soil test- admittedly this was from July 2020. Did not do a new test this year, as I figured it was unlikely we'd see a massive change. OM is in the optimal range.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

*Fri 8/27 - 25 days after seeding, 18 DAG
*
It has been hot and humid, but this afternoon cooled off a little bit with some cloud cover. I finally dropped some Urea.

Out of the 2,000 SF reno area, my estimate is about 1000 SF is in good shape with germination. So I tossed down 0.5 lb of Urea at a rate of 0.25 N / 1k Sq Ft in the areas with germination and hand watered in.

Nothing germinating where I dropped new seed on Monday, but was not expecting it yet. Will keep a close eye on the area this weekend. *The soil is STILL moist, despite no rain and very little irrigation since Tues with hot temps.*

This is why my head was going in the direction of adding some new soil and compost - as I thought that may help with drainage. If anyone has any other thoughts on how to improve drainage, I'm open to it!


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Sand


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tues 8/31, crazy to think it has been 4 weeks since seed down. And 3 weeks since first germination.

Front and back of reno are coming in nicely. A few small bare spots here and there but will likely fill in. I've noticed these areas have started to pop a little after some Urea last Friday. Hope it keeps going.

Middle area is still an issue. It's been 8 days since I tossed more seed in that area. There has been SOME germination, but not widespread. I bought a few bags of sand/soil mix with compost in reserve. I may toss this down in a day or two to see if I can get germination in a few larger areas and hope it spread in the future. There is no pattern or glaringly obvious reason why this area is seeing little germ. Areas all around it with similar conditions are doing fine.


Big patch that I seeded on Sat 8/21 looking good:


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 9/1 - 30 days since seed down

First mow on the germinated areas. Cut at lowest setting on the rotary and praying for more spreading! Cut height is 1.375".

Went carefully to avoid scalping or any ruts.

*Spring reno area*: saw some LS fungus last week and sprayed with Propi. Need to get Prodiamine down this week, as soil temps are now dropping after an above average Aug. Poa Annua was a huge problem here before I gly'ed and re-seeded this spring. Also need to get down some N...last spoon feed was late July and it's hungry. I will give it a normal N feeding rather than spoon feed.

*Everywhere else*: lowering the cut height and will start the fall blitz for the next fert app.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

About time we get some cooler temps! Not sure about you but it has been a hot one this summer. My grass in the back has areas with quite a bit of fine fescue and some of it has just completely checked out.

The whole middle area you've got going on is so odd. Hopefully you'll start to see some more germ over the next couple of days past what you already have. Congrats on the first mow! Now on to some tillering action!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Another 9/1 update

Had some down time at work today. Regarding my middle area of the reno with little germ and bad drainage….decided I have nothing to lose at this point and tossed down 5 bags of sandy/soil mix along with 2 bags of compost. I used some of the compost to topdress the seed in place of peat moss as well. My hope is that all of this may help my moisture issue.

My estimate is about 1000 sq ft and I put down about 2.5lbs of KBG seed. I put down starter fert as well.

Watered everything in, although it was windy and I think some of the middle is on drier side. Tomorrow morning should hopefully be calmer.

Timing is going to be interesting but first frost is usually mid to late Oct. I could use some good fortune, but the way things have gone I'm sure it'll come in Sept…ha!

If this doesn't work, I'll try PRG in a couple weeks. But if I can't get KBG to grow there, then I'm not sure I'll be any luckier with PRG.



Edit: also put down 1lb N / 1k sq ft in spring reno area to start fall blitz.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> About time we get some cooler temps! Not sure about you but it has been a hot one this summer. My grass in the back has areas with quite a bit of fine fescue and some of it has just completely checked out.
> 
> The whole middle area you've got going on is so odd. Hopefully you'll start to see some more germ over the next couple of days past what you already have. Congrats on the first mow! Now on to some tillering action!


Ahh yes the fine fescue…I can't stand it. We have it in the front mixed with KBG. I try to keep it longer, but it just flops over and then turns brown in the heat. And It has been hot here since Memorial Day. I should probably lower the HOC in the future. I so badly want to reno our front yard. Just not sure I have the chops to do it…more so for constant neighbor questions.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Haha. @jrubb42 has the perfect sign for your front yard! :thumbup:


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Bob Loblawn said:


> Just not sure I have the chops to do it…more so for constant neighbor questions.


If you reno it, they will ask.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

lbb091919 said:


> Bob Loblawn said:
> 
> 
> > Just not sure I have the chops to do it…more so for constant neighbor questions.
> ...


So if I'm getting the movie reference right...you're telling me I should build a baseball field? got it! haha

Funny enough - my next door neighbor's kids thought that was what I was doing in my backyard for the reno this year


----------



## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

I've had zero neighbors ask what I'm doing because of my sign. The all read it and walk away laughing. Best investment of my Reno so far. Haha


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

Bob Loblawn said:


> lbb091919 said:
> 
> 
> > Bob Loblawn said:
> ...


They just laugh at me when I tell them I'm trying to make it look like Busch Stadium


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sat 9/4

Mowed reno on lowest setting at 1.375"

I'm finding some more green coming up through the middle area. It's definitely not new germination from the seed I put down a few days ago. I think getting some sandy soil and organic matter helped with some growth and drainage. Time will tell.

Will need to get some more urea and tenacity down this week.

Took a pic from second floor bedroom for a better vantage point, pardon the shot behind the screen.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tues 9/7

Took the day off today and spent most of the morning tending to some things that I haven't got to yet:

Applied prodiamine at 3 month rate in front and back except for the Fall Reno area of course. Hope this holds any stray poa annua at bay, since I did gly it for a spring reno. I will apply again around Thanksgiving assuming ground isn't frozen over.

Applied bifenthrin around house foundation, windows and shrubs.

As far as the fall renovation. I really think the sandy/soil mix with compost is helping the middle area that has struggled. I'm slowly starting to see the edges spread inward and I'm seeing some green poke up. I think much if that was already germinating as it looks more mature. Any new seed I put down last Wed would barely be poking up, which I'm noticing a bit of. Hard to see from the picture below, but feeling better than a week ago.

Of course…huge intense storm about to hit us with an inch of rain fast. Hoping for the best.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 9/9

Cut germinated areas down to 1.375" which is the lowest setting on the rotary. This is my third mow so far and things are starting spread and thicken up.

Also tossed down 0.75 lb of urea as I estimated about 1500 SF of germination. This is the .25 N / 1k sq ft rate. Second application of urea.

As far as my troubled area in the middle of the reno. I'm starting to see germination, however im not getting too close so I don't walk in the middle of it.

I looked through my backyard camera and have noticed some of that trouble area gets less sunlight (1.5-2 hrs direct in mid afternoon). I still think that should be enough for KBG, but maybe I'll need to toss down some fine fescue if KBG germination continues to struggle.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Glad to hear that you're seeing some germ in your trouble area. Hopefully your remedy will get things jumpstarted because the rest of your Reno looks awesome and thickening up well. How is it handling the rotary? I'm sure you're being careful. I've got a few spots where peat piled after heavy rain and it's going to be a bit testy with the manual reel.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 9/10

Seeing much more visible germination, so I will call this Day 2 of DAG for my reseeded middle area. Nice to see grass babies again! This is 9 days after seeding, so right in line with what I had in the early days of my reno.

I'm hoping this will align nicely with the rest of the reno when I drop N/urea every 2 weeks-ish.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> Glad to hear that you're seeing some germ in your trouble area. Hopefully your remedy will get things jumpstarted because the rest of your Reno looks awesome and thickening up well. How is it handling the rotary? I'm sure you're being careful. I've got a few spots where peat piled after heavy rain and it's going to be a bit testy with the manual reel.


Thanks @Liquidstone, I'm hoping the germination sticks and can mature enough to survive the winter. Trying not to get my hopes up too much, but feeling much much better than last week. It will be fun to do a "post-mortem" when growing season is over. Definitely learning a lot.

Handling the rotary has been just fine. Tried to let the reno dry out a tad, but I've gone out there when it was probably a little wetter than I wanted each of the 3 mows. So far, so good. Where I REALLY need to be careful is around the edges and garden beds or wherever there is a more sudden incline/decline. The lowest setting on the rotary tends to scalp if I don't keep the mower level, since I'm on the lowest setting. That can obviously be said for any mowing in general, but want to be extra careful with new grass.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Monday 9/13

Lots more green in my trouble area in the middle of the reno. It's 5 DAG and getting better each day. A few spots are straggling but over time will fill in.

On another note, I've been starting to see some decent weed pressure in my successful part of the reno towards the back of my yard. This is at 35 DAG. It's mostly broadleaf (thistle, dandelions) and some clover.

Are there any recommendations on how to treat? Or should i leave alone and address in the spring? I've yet to put down my second tenacity app, however I'm wondering if I should either hand pull or is it ok to spot spray with weed-b-gone (2,4D, quinclorac, dicamba)? I've hand pulled a few bigger weeds, but it takes grass with it. I just don't think tenacity is going to kill these weeds based on my previous experience, but perhaps will prevent more from popping up.

Progress pics:
Saturday


Today (9/13)


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I would pull them and apply your next Tenacity app on schedule. Before you apply the Weed B Gon, read the label thoroughly, to make sure the seedlings are mature enough to tolerate the herbicide. FWIW, I would not suggest the WBG at this point. About 15 years ago, I made the mistake of applying a 2,4D product too early and killed off 90% of a kbg reno that was coming in well. Luckily, it was early enough to reseed and only about 500 sq ft, and I was able to salvage it, mostly.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Chris LI said:


> I would pull them and apply your next Tenacity app on schedule. Before you apply the Weed B Gon, read the label thoroughly, to make sure the seedlings are mature enough to tolerate the herbicide. FWIW, I would not suggest the WBG at this point. About 15 years ago, I made the mistake of applying a 2,4D product too early and killed off 90% of a kbg reno that was coming in well. Luckily, it was early enough to reseed and only about 500 sq ft, and I was able to salvage it, mostly.


Bob, thanks for bringing this up. I have some pretty fierce weed pressure as well in some areas.

Chris, thanks for sharing your experience! It is much appreciated.


----------



## CDR (Apr 19, 2021)

Just found this thread, very interested given I'm in NW IL.

This heat has been a real pain lately


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Chris LI said:


> I would pull them and apply your next Tenacity app on schedule. Before you apply the Weed B Gon, read the label thoroughly, to make sure the seedlings are mature enough to tolerate the herbicide. FWIW, I would not suggest the WBG at this point. About 15 years ago, I made the mistake of applying a 2,4D product too early and killed off 90% of a kbg reno that was coming in well. Luckily, it was early enough to reseed and only about 500 sq ft, and I was able to salvage it, mostly.


Thanks for the advice @Chris LI . I took a look at the label and it says do not spray on new lawns until it reaches height of 2". I've gotten to that height but mowing lower. I have the spot sprayer WBG and not the concentrate in case that makes a difference. I believe the concentrates are applied broadly via hose end sprayer.

That said, I'm very glad you shared your experience. Not worth the risk! I will plan to hand pull as best as possible then get my second tenacity app down and save the WBG for late in the season or next year.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> > I would pull them and apply your next Tenacity app on schedule. Before you apply the Weed B Gon, read the label thoroughly, to make sure the seedlings are mature enough to tolerate the herbicide. FWIW, I would not suggest the WBG at this point. About 15 years ago, I made the mistake of applying a 2,4D product too early and killed off 90% of a kbg reno that was coming in well. Luckily, it was early enough to reseed and only about 500 sq ft, and I was able to salvage it, mostly.
> ...


Is it still the purslane? I think you were saying it's resilient when you don't get it out down the root.

I know we're all perfectionists, hence the renovation. But I have to remind myself weeds will always find a way to pop up and they are treatable in most cases. Just annoying to see it now, but we've made it this far and can handle it. Hope we all avoid the dreaded one…(poa t)


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

CDR said:


> Just found this thread, very interested given I'm in NW IL.
> 
> This heat has been a real pain lately


It sure has. Not liking the return of the humidity. Been such a funky year with weather. Been so hot and dry since Memorial Day. With a reprieve or two for a few days.

Are you planning a reno in the future? Happy to help answer an questions about my experience if you are, seeing that we'll probably have similar conditions.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tues 9/14

Original reno area 36 DAG
Reseeded middle part of reno 6 DAG

Cut established reno again to 1.375" (lowest setting) on the rotary. This is the 4th cut and it's looking really nice. It's thick in most spots, up close pic included below. As I zoom in, looks like I need to sharpen my mower blade.



Progress on reseeded middle area below. More green each day. Feeling so much better.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

That middle section is coming around! I like it. Your zoomed in pic looks well filled in and healthy. You've got to feel good about it all.

For me, yes that purslane is still coming in strong and spreading. I've been pulling them once they have gotten to a good size where I'm not also pulling up turf, at least that's been the goal. It's hard to do. I'm also seeing more broadleaf pressure than I'd like!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 9/17
9 DAG for reseeded area in middle of reno. Can't wait to get some urea on here next week. @g-man quick question- due to having to reseed this big area a bit later in the season than ideal, would it make sense to consider a weekly urea app (0.25lb/k?) to encourage faster growth? I did toss down Lesco 18-24-12 starter fert at the time of reseeding.

Here are a couple progress pics of the middle area





Pic that tries to capture the entire reno. It's hard to ever get one great shot, as there is usually some element of shade in the backyard, but this was the best I could do. But you can tell there is green nearly everywhere now. Some spots are more bare but will fill in eventually.



On a side note, we've got a black walnut tree on the other side of the yard. Supposedly it was a very optimal summer/weather for "fruit" or nut production (according to our arborist). Squirrels are everywhere and zoom through the reno all the time. The squirrels tend to dig/bury the walnuts and I've noticed a few holes in the reno here or there. Oh well. Good thing it's KBG, but I'll almost always have a bumpy yard because of this.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

I've got the same thing going on in my backyard every year. So many nuts and the squirrels are mad back there. It would be a full time job trying to keep it cleaned up enough to reel mow.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would treat that area to a different timeframe. You have plenty of time, so don't worry.

Now, the black walnut can explain some of your seeding problems. They have a chemical, juglone (i think that's the right spelling), that inhibits germination.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

lbb091919 said:


> I've got the same thing going on in my backyard every year. So many nuts and the squirrels are mad back there. It would be a full time job trying to keep it cleaned up enough to reel mow.


I bought this Garden Weasel product a couple years ago and absolutely love it for picking up the large walnuts. I also have a smaller one for all the acorns that drop from a pin oak tree in the front of my house. I haven't found that as useful because it would take forever to collect all the acorns. I just use a blower or rake (or just leave alone, as I'm sure it will break down). It's more of a problem for my driveway - the acorns leave tannin stains if they sit on the concrete too long.

https://www.amazon.com/Garden-Wease...8973b&pd_rd_wg=sexDX&pd_rd_i=B0096XZWNM&psc=1


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

g-man said:


> I would treat that area to a different timeframe. You have plenty of time, so don't worry.
> 
> Now, the black walnut can explain some of your seeding problems. They have a chemical, juglone (i think that's the right spelling), that inhibits germination.


Thanks @g-man appreciate the reassurance on timing.

Yes you are right the juglone can be problematic. There are a lot of species that cannot grow under, around or near a black walnut. Supposedly grass should be OK to grow near the black walnuts (https://hort.extension.wisc.edu/articles/black-walnut-toxicity/). Because the tree is on the other side of my yard versus the renovation, I'm hoping any impact would be minimal.

But speaking of trees- I do have a Norway Maple in the very middle of my yard. It has a pretty dense and frequent shade canopy -- particularly to the middle part of my renovation. I looked at my camera and the tree (+ a few others) shades the middle of my reno from roughly ~11am-3pm. I'll have to dig it up, but I recently read it can be hard to grow grass under Norway Maple trees because of the shade and their shallow roots. My guess is this is contributing to slower growth and/or slow drainage - something that was a huge issue after massive storms and high humidity. That, paired with a North facing yard - adds up to a challenge (but not insurmountable!)


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sat 9/18

Rotary mowed the established reno areas at 1.375", again the lowest setting. This is my 5th mow.

I'll likely stay at this height until my first mow on the reseeded middle area of the reno. Then I may slowly increase the height.

Progress pic from above (10 DAG for middle area):


----------



## Robs92k (May 9, 2021)

I know it's causing you issues, but I love the shade and tranquility. Once you get it established it's going to be beautiful.

Nice work on the landscaping as well…that's def a spot to enjoy a few drinks!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Robs92k said:


> I know it's causing you issues, but I love the shade and tranquility. Once you get it established it's going to be beautiful.
> 
> Nice work on the landscaping as well…that's def a spot to enjoy a few drinks!


Thank you! And I agree, the trees are beautiful shade is so great- especially in the summer when we want to be outside but not overwhelmingly hot.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 9/23

Hasn't been an optimal week from a weather standpoint. Rainy and overcast, while the last couple days were in the 50s/60s. Forecast looks better starting tomorrow.

Mowed at 1.375", this is the 6th mow for my more established parts. Still waiting to mow the middle of the reno that was reseeded.

Tossed down 1 lb of urea across the entire renovation today, which is about 2k square feet. So it was at the .25lb N / k rate. This is the first time my middle reseeded area is getting N. Hoping it starts to take off next week.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Here's to that N juicing up that middle section! :beer: it was looking good in your last pic, I'm sure it'll start to kick in.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

I have a Norway maple in my back yard that I've had trouble growing grass underneath. Some of it is the dense canopy, but a major reason is the dense network of surface roots. I seem to remember that they have somewhat of an alleopathic effect (but can't remember where I heard it from). I've overseeded Bewitched many times and added a Mazama/Beyond blend to the Bewitched the last few years, and done a "drill and fill" with a masonry bit and mason sand. That helped some, and I probably should do it a little more. What's helped noticeably, is adding some tri-rye seed and foliar fertilizer apps. Even though I applied sufficient granular fertilizer to supply the turf and for the tree to steal, I think the tree was still stealing too many nutrients. With adding foliar apps, the turf is getting direct nutrition.

I also have surface root competition issues with Red maples on the other side of my backyard, which have gotten better too, using all but the "drill and fill" technique.

If you can do some selective pruning to lift the canopy, it will definitely help. I also have some ground cover at the base of the trees, where it is next to impossible to grow grass. Feel free to check out my journal, for more info/photos.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Chris LI said:


> I have a Norway maple in my back yard that I've had trouble growing grass underneath. Some of it is the dense canopy, but a major reason is the dense network of surface roots. I seem to remember that they have somewhat of an alleopathic effect (but can't remember where I heard it from). I've overseeded Bewitched many times and added a Mazama/Beyond blend to the Bewitched the last few years, and done a "drill and fill" with a masonry bit and mason sand. That helped some, and I probably should do it a little more. What's helped noticeably, is adding some tri-rye seed and foliar fertilizer apps. Even though I applied sufficient granular fertilizer to supply the turf and for the tree to steal, I think the tree was still stealing too many nutrients. With adding foliar apps, the turf is getting direct nutrition.
> 
> I also have surface root competition issues with Red maples on the other side of my backyard, which have gotten better too, using all but the "drill and fill" technique.
> 
> If you can do some selective pruning to lift the canopy, it will definitely help. I also have some ground cover at the base of the trees, where it is next to impossible to grow grass. Feel free to check out my journal, for more info/photos.


Very interesting and thank you for sharing your experience with the Norway Maple. From your perspective, What is the benefit of the drill and fill method? I'm curious what it does, as I'm not as experienced.

Really good thought on the foliar apps- I will definitely try this.

What are your thoughts on Red Maples? I have to cut down 3 Ash trees (infected) and 2 silver maples in our backyard. Would love to re-plant at least one tree. Our arborist thought a red autumn maple would be nice. Pics are beautiful.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 9/24 - 16 DAG for reseeded middle area

Coming in nicely, although you can still see some areas struggling to grow more than a few patches. Hopefully the N will jumpstart things a bit with the nice forecast coming up.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Drill and fill is a type of deep type of aeration. Golf courses and sports turf have fancy machines that will make deep holes and fill them with sand. Since the dense network of roots would not allow any regular type of aerator to penetrate the surface, I figured that I would attempt a similar technique on a smaller scale. I think I used a 3/4" x 13" masonry bit to make a larger hole. My goal was to get better penetration to provide more water, nutrients, oxygen, seed to soil contact,, etc. (typical uses of aeration). Since I couldn't get hundreds of holes, I wanted to get bigger, deeper holes to fill with sand, so grass roots had somewhere to go. The price was really good on that bit, so that's why I chose a 3/4". I would have gone larger, but the price was a lot higher.

As for Red maples, they are beautiful trees. If you want one, I would be very strategic with placement and have a larger tree ring, which is at a lower grade. It wouldn't necessarily stop the roots from trying to surface once they reach the edge of the tree ring, but it would give you the best chance, and provide a low spot for water to collect. It may buy you a little time before the the canopy and feeder roots expand into the turf. I would consider a large contoured tree ring that you could plant some ground cover and/or make a nice bed with pavers and a bench (kind of like you already have-just my two cents). Also, I would keep the HOC no shorter than 2", and would choose another variety of tree if you have any aspirations of reel mowing. It's good that you're getting rid of the Silver maples, they are notorious with multiple trunks that rot, messy limb breakage, and absolutely the worst monster surface roots. My parents had three 75 footers, and they were a PITA. I'm guessing the Emerald Ash Borer took out your Ash trees.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Very helpful explanation, thanks Chris. I'll give the foliar N apps a shot this fall. And if it struggles, will look into the bigger masonry bit. How many holes do you estimate you made and how far away from the tree trunk? We have a 1 year old at home, so sometimes time is limited…that's why I was thinking wait til next year.

Appreciate the advice on the red maple. I'm staying with the rotary so the plan is to keep around 3" for the most part, maybe 2.5".

Totally right about silver maples…those surface roots are brutal and really the only noticeable ones in my yard. I'm not sure our tree guy can get rid of those surface roots too. Mowing around them sucks. And Always cleaning up their branches after storms or wind, which I have to chop up myself since the village only takes care of parkway tree branches.

Yep sadly the emerald ash borer got the ash trees. While it sucks, I try to look at the positives…having the arborist out helped me learn a lot about trees. And which species we have in our yard. Always wondered why woodpeckers loved our ash trees…going after the emerald ash borers. It's crazy how an insect can just decimate trees.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

The Norway maple is next to the property line, with a bed of English Ivy, so I have less than 50% to deal with. Holes ranged roughly 8'-20' from the trunk and I only made 30-40 of them (I need to make a lot more). I keep some sand stored in an aluminum loaf/bread pan in the boiler room to dry, so it flows easier through the funnel. The nice part about it is that you can go at your own pace and do 5 or 10 at a time. I looked for compacted areas where the grass was choked out, to drill.

The maple is good burning wood (the Ash might be too). I would get (or build) a fire pit, for all that wood and save on carting fees. Also, burning the Ash is helpful to keep the EAB from spreading. There may be some type of quarantine by state regulations. I would check with your arborist and confirm with your local Cooperative Extension of the university, before anyone removes Ash wood from your property.

For the SM roots, I would have them stump grind them as deep as the grinder will go (based on wheel diameter), remove the material, and replace it with topsoil or topsoil/sand mix. If you leave the grindings there, it will definitely settle, and leave a sagging lawn, which will get worse with time. Make sure the company knows you want it ground deep, to get all of the roots, if possible. If not told, the guys will grind it flush, and call it a day. Time is money and they'll do the least amount, so they can get to the next job. This is one job that you want to be home to supervise.

That HOC sounds good.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 9/29 - 21 DAG for middle reseeded area

Cut entire renovation area at 1.375" on the rotary. First time I cut the reseeded middle area. 7th mow at this height for the rest of the more established renovation (1st mow was 9/1)

Middle area is coming in nicely (pics below are pre-mow). It's amazing how much better things look after a mow. Let's hope the spreading really takes off. There's still a decent sized muddy area with some growth, but hopefully it fills in over the next few weeks. If not, maybe i can plant some plugs next spring or toss extra seed.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 9/30

Tossed down 0.5 lb N / 1k SF rate of urea in front and side yard. I will reapply in two weeks per the fall blitz thread. Taking the more cautious approach.

Tossed down 1 lb N / 1k SF rate of urea in backyard non reno areas. Figured I'd test out both this rate (monthly) vs the above 0.5 N every two weeks in front.

Note to self: side yard is so damn bumpy. Consider some sort of sand leveling next year.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Middle section looking good, I'm sure you're happy you threw down some additional seed. Odd it didn't take in the first place. I've got some serious worm castings going on that will likely cause some bumping. Waiting for the yard to be ready for the rotary and throw the roller on the back too to help a bit.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Liquidstone said:


> Middle section looking good, I'm sure you're happy you threw down some additional seed. Odd it didn't take in the first place. I've got some serious worm castings going on that will likely cause some bumping. Waiting for the yard to be ready for the rotary and throw the roller on the back too to help a bit.


Thanks, it's definitely a huge sigh of relief. I think the small areas that are still struggling didn't get the extra compost/soil&sand mixture. I mistakenly thought those areas were doing fine and never reseeded. Oh well.

Those worm casings with disappear in short order for you!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sat 10/2 - 24 DAG for reseeded middle area

Got another mow in this morning. A little wetter than I wanted, but supposed to rain soon and for the next couple days. So wanted to get a mow in to keep low. Mowed at 1.375" on the rotary. Second mow on middle area and 8th cut on the rest of the reno.


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Man that first pic is looking sweet!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Got another mow in this afternoon. Keeping it low at 1.375". 3rd mow on middle area and 9th for remainder of the reno. Ground is pretty wet from lots of rain the last few days.

All of a sudden today I've noticed unsightly lime green popping up in some spots of the reno towards the back. This is a familiar sight and most certainly Poa A. This part of the yard was a Poa A problem for me before the reno, so I'm guessing some of this just got through and not much I could've done. I was able to hand pull a few plants and will continue to do so. Annoying, but I knew this would probably happen and can deal with it.

My only worry is I think I'm seeing a couple Poa T plants too. I've never had Poa T in my yard to my knowledge. Im not positive it's Poa T, but put some pics below.

First pic is definitely Poa A. The second pic was where I pulled up what I thought might be Poa T. It certainly looked like it in the ground before I pulled it. Hard to ID here.


----------



## Frankzzz (Aug 23, 2021)

Chris LI said:


> and done a "drill and fill" with a masonry bit and mason sand.


I've been thinking of doing a drill and fill to try to alleviate some drainage issues in my lawn, but wasn't sure what type of sand to use. 
Is masonry sand coarser? 
Only thing I find locally is Quikrete all purpose sand or Quikrete play sand.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

Frankzzz said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> > and done a "drill and fill" with a masonry bit and mason sand.
> ...


I believe it is, and would go with it. If you check your local HD, you'll probably find a torn bag of each (or spillage on the ground from previous torn bags), to inspect. I think the mason or all-purpose sands also have a sharper, angular cut, which should allow more space in between granules to allow better air/water penetration, as opposed to the smoother play sand. I'm not a topdressing expert, but I seem to recall having a discussion with our regional GC expert about how I had to use the USGA spec hot sand on my pitch putt greens, as opposed to free beach sand that I had available. Besides being unscreened and non-sterilized, beach sand is a finer, smoother sand in general.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Was out of commission since last Friday and we got lots of rain in that time. Finally had a chance to mow the reno at 1.375" yesterday and it was still wet. But it needed it.

Tossed down more urea today at 0.25lb N /k.

There's just some areas that aren't growing. Obviously to be expected with mostly rainy and overcast weather. But some spots have always struggled and are either mostly mud or there's grass coverage but seemingly never came out of the pout stage. Will try to post some pics in the next day or two. But overall coverage is solid and I hope that things will fill in next year.

Need some sun!


----------



## Liquidstone (Mar 31, 2021)

Bob Loblawn said:


> Was out of commission since last Friday and we got lots of rain in that time. Finally had a chance to mow the reno at 1.375" yesterday and it was still wet. But it needed it.
> 
> Tossed down more urea today at 0.25lb N /k.
> 
> ...


Hear that loud and clear! At least you've got majority solid coverage. It'll help no doubt and I'm hopeful that come next spring things will fill in nicely.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

First pic shows the areas where it's muddy. There's green in there but it ain't doing much. I think it's a drainage issue, similar to other areas I had to address mid-reno. I may try to topdress with the sand/soil/compost mix which seemed to help my other areas. I just don't want it to be a wasted effort.

Second pic is another progress pic. Leaves are slowly starting to fall, makes for good mulching.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sun 10/17

Raised the mow up a notch on the rotary, so I cut the renovation at 1.75". I'll keep there for another mow or two, then raise again.

Yesterday I tried to address my muddier areas and put down light layer of compost.

Here's what we look like as of this morning. Feeling great about the reno! Definitely have plenty of learnings that I'll need to summarize after the last mow so I can keep handy for future renovations.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

And here's a summary of the progress and journey

8/2 (seed down)


8/18


8/28


9/1 (reseeded middle area, added sandy soil and compost mix in middle before reseeding)


9/17


9/28


10/2:


10/17


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 10/20

Got another mow in at 1.75". Tossed down more urea at .25N/K rate.


----------



## lbb091919 (Apr 26, 2020)

The progress pics are stunning! I cant wait to see all of these fall renos come spring and next fall. We're gonna be booming!


----------



## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

How have things turned out in 2022?


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Ben4Birdies said:


> How have things turned out in 2022?


Just getting around to seeing this, but so far things have turned out great! Pic below from today (looking better today after a few days of rain and cooler temps).

Did a lot of spoon feeding this spring, but haven't put much N down since mid to late May…it has been HOT here. So you'll notice in the foreground of the pic below, there are areas that need to fill in- hopefully after a nice N blitz this fall.

I had Poa A problems here before the reno and some of it definitely came back, but should hopefully be manageable with Pre-M. Sadly I do think I have some Poa T spots- not sure if i always had it or if it was the seed. But will attack it next spring.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Decided to take the reno plunge again this summer. This year is another 500 SF area in my backyard that was full of Poa A and I think possibly even some bentgrass. It was the only area remaining in my backyard that was lime green. So it was time to smoke it.

Also had a few trees removed this spring that needed topsoil and grass.

Gly'ed around 4th of July, on 7/23 and right at seed down. Fallowed in between, and added some topsoil to all areas.

Put seed down on Monday 8/1. Starting to see grass babies as of today 8/6. Gonna be hot and humid next few days so monitoring everything closely.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Monday 8/8 - 1 week after seed down, 2 DAG

Seeing even more widespread germination, feeling good. It has been very rainy here the last couple days, so glad to see it still going.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sat 8/13 12 days after seed down, 7 DAG

Seeing some good progress on the tree stump areas. Slower going in the bigger reno area, mostly in the middle.

Our son was born on Wed night, so couldn't really monitor. When we came home yesterday it looks like it got a bit too much water. I'll cut back the next couple days.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 8/17: 16 days after seed down, 11 DAG

No major updates since Sat, slowly progressing. My reno area is a bit slow, but keeping an eye on it. Hard to see the green mixed in with the dead grass, but it's there. Also, will get Urea on there real soon so that might jump start it. Otherwise the tree stump areas are looking good.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 8/20 18 days after seeding, 13 DAG

Tossed down urea in the reno and tree stump areas at 0.25 N / 1k SF

Tossed down a tad earlier because we were expecting rain the next few days


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Sun 8/22 21 days after seed down, 15 DAG

Tree stump areas coming in very nicely. The middle reno area is coming in well too, but there are areas with little to no germination. We'll see if the Urea helps, I'll keep an eye on it this week. I think those areas should fill in, but may toss some extra seed to be safe


----------



## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

Looking very nice!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Mon 8/23: 22 days after seed down, 16 DAG

Might just be the lighting from this morning but looking much more green today.

Weather looking very favorable this week, think we should see some more progress


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 8/26- 25 DAS and 20 DAG

Filling in even more. Still a few spots with little to no germination, but I believe these spots will fill in from some mowing and N

Speaking of…some of this is getting pretty high so I may give it the first mow low today to start encouraging spreading


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Same day update…did first mow on reno areas on lowest setting (1.375"). Was a tad wet but should be fine.


----------



## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

I'm thinking of cutting mine for the first time this weekend. 16 DAS with TTTF. There are areas that are getting tall and lush. A walk-behind reel mower shouldn't do too much damage.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Mon 8/29: 28 DAS, 23 DAG

More progress pics, feeling really good. Had some storms come through yesterday and more again today, so probably do not need to water over the next day or so. I also want to let it dry out a tad so I can give it another mow.

Will also be looking to do another urea app and tenacity over the next week.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tue 8/30 - 29 DAS, 24 DAG

Got another mow in at 1.375" to encourage more tillering and spreading. Have a shot below but not the best lightning from this afternoon

My barest areas are on the edges towards the back (hostas blocking sunlight is my guess) and bottom left of the pic which gets a little covered from a small tree. My hope is the KBG will spread to those areas in due time

Will need to get urea down later this week along with tenacity as I'm noticing a few weeds that I'm hand pulling for now.

Elsewhere, i also need to get prodiamine down in my non-reno areas. I'm a little behind and I have a poa a battle in my hands.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thurs 9/1 - happy September! 31 DAS, 26 DAG

Dropped more urea at .25 N / 1k SF rate in reno and tree stump areas.

Another progress pic below. Things are tracking nicely and overall pretty happy with the mini-reno. Much more cooperative versus my reno from last year where I was sweating it out at this point last year.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Fri 9/2: 32 DAS, 27 DAG

Got another mow in this morning, the third mow so far at 1.375"

More progress pics





Tree stump areas:


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Quiet day today, nothing needed on reno.

Put down prodiamine in backyard at 5g/1k Sq Ft (20g total for 4k SF).

My battle in the backyard is with Poa Annua. Over the last two seasons, Ive reno'd nearly the entire back yard, so Poa A should hopefully be minimal. But I had sooo much of it that i know seedheads are living in the soil. And my hope is prodiamine will keep it at bay in spring.

I've already started to see some poa come back to life with some of the cooler weather we had in Aug. I think I'm a bit later than ideal with this application but we shall see.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Non reno update:

Put down 1lb N / 1k sq Ft rate of urea in back yard to get fall blitz going. Will need to do front yard this week.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 9/7 - 37 DAS and 32 DAG

On the reno got another cut in (4th cut so far) at 1.375" on the rotary. Have backed off watering to 1-2x per day for longer time. Progress pics below

In non reno areas, got down fall blitz application in front yard. Accidentally only did 0.5lb N / 1k so had to add more after I had already watered in…so watered in twice. Total app was 1 lb N / 1k sq ft


----------



## SeanW78 (6 mo ago)

@Bob Loblawn That's looking really good. All these fall renos are going to be killer next spring.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Tue 9/13, 43 DAS and 38 DAG

Been rainy the last few days so has been quiet as we stayed inside

Got another mow in on the reno this afternoon at 1.375" setting on my rotary. 5th mow so far.

Still have some bare-ish spots that I'm hoping will fill in with more mowing and N.

While I'm pretty happy with my reno and overall germination, the weather has been cooler, cloudier and rainier than usual for this time of year, which may explain some slow going. Looks like the next week or so will return to 80s and sun.


----------



## Ben4Birdies (12 mo ago)

Hey, nice work! Your germination sure looks a whole lot more consistent than mine. This kbg reno stuff sure tests our patience!

How long did it take for your last reno to feel like a proper lawn?


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Ben4Birdies said:


> Hey, nice work! Your germination sure looks a whole lot more consistent than mine. This kbg reno stuff sure tests our patience!
> 
> How long did it take for your last reno to feel like a proper lawn?


Thanks! I'd say my reno from last year felt really good by mid October, but still needed to fill in some areas. It really felt like a normal lawn this spring after babying it with some N.

Yours is looking great!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Thu 9/15, 45 DAS & 40 DAG

Put down more N today at .25 lb N / ksqft rate.

Here's a progress pic from yesterday


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 9/21

Another progress update, aiming to get a mow in later today if time allows

I'm approaching about 4 weeks after the first mow so after this one I'll probably gradually increase the height the next few weeks.

Edit: got another mow in (6th so far)


----------



## jskierko (Sep 5, 2020)

This came in nicely, well done!


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

A little behind but got a mow in on 10/1. Growth has slowed due to lower temps and overcast weather but warming up a tad this week.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 10/5

Put down one more N app on the reno at .25lb N / ksqft. Depending on the weather we’ll see if I put any more down for the year

Updated pics below. In one of the tree stump areas, I’m Noticing some fungus. I sprayed over the weekend, hoping it does not spread.


----------



## Bob Loblawn (Apr 10, 2020)

Wed 10/19

one more progress pic on the reno. Growth has slowed because this October has been unseasonably cool (30s and 40s). Although we have a nice stretch of temps coming up, so I’ll take it.


----------

