# Pre Emergent MOA?



## Jbird95 (Jun 24, 2020)

I have been exclusively using dimension for the last 5yrs, including 3 apps per yr. Regardless, every year come Spring I have a substantial crop of oxalis, poa and dandelions. Should I be alternating my pre emergent MOA? For example, Dimension Spring, Specticle early summer and Dimension Fall? If anyone has a successful pre schedule they'd like to post it wouldn't hurt my feelings. Thanks


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@Jbird95 My recommendations are for your large yard of 30K.

I recommend a minimum of two pre-emergents modes of action per season. Prodiamine last longer in the soil and would be a better Fall application than dimension. It is also better if you go out early with your pre-em in the Spring. Dimension is better for a late Spring early Summer application.

Simazine can be added for a small cost to give you added protection against POA in the Fall and Winter.

Specticle Flo/ *Esplanade *is probably the best pre-emergent on the market. It would be my first choice for a Fall application.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I would use specticle in the fall without a doubt. Use prodiamine in spring


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## Shizzlestix66 (Aug 30, 2020)

@FATC1TY Would you max rate the specticle 10oz per acre in fall and a 6 month app of prodiamine in spring?


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Shizzlestix66 said:


> @FATC1TY Would you max rate the specticle 10oz per acre in fall and a 6 month app of prodiamine in spring?


If you have significant weed pressure, sure.

I've used the 8oz per acre rate and have been more than happy. I'm a year in with Specticle and I'm comfortable telling someone to find a weed and I'll eat it.


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## Shizzlestix66 (Aug 30, 2020)

I have a bag of simazine 90df. Would it be ok to add to the mix.


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## Jbird95 (Jun 24, 2020)

@cldrunner does this schedule look okay? Kinda confused as Prodiamine and Dimension look to have same MOA
Spring Prodiamine
Summer Dimension 
Fall Specticle/Simazine


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@Jbird95

I think that is a pretty good plan until you use up all your Dimension.

Feb 15-Mar 7th : Prodiamine(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)
May 1st: Dimension (until you run out) then just Prodiamine(HR)
August 25th - Sept 15 Specticle(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)
Nov 1 -15 Specticle(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)

Gotta make sure to get each application watered in very good. A plan like this gives you three modes of action and pretty steady coverage for the whole growing season. I think you will be very happy with the results. You can also add insecticide like Bifen I/T each application to keep the bug pressure down. I put down Imidcloprid in June for Armyworm and grub control.


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I have been putting out Prodiamine twice a year - September and February, mostly without issue other than the occasional Poa breaking through. This year I did Prodiamine plus Snapshot in the spring. Might try the Specticle+Snapshot in the fall and see if it does better with the Poa next year.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

FATC1TY said:


> If you have significant weed pressure, sure.
> 
> I've used the 8oz per acre rate and have been more than happy. I'm a year in with Specticle and I'm comfortable telling someone to find a weed and I'll eat it.


Lol, that sums up my experience with Specticle.


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## Shizzlestix66 (Aug 30, 2020)

@jayhawk so do you just use specticle in the fall and prodiamine in the spring? I hope it doesnt seem like I'm trying to hijack this thread from the OP. He just asked the same question I've been having.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Shizzlestix66 said:


> @jayhawk so do you just use specticle in the fall and prodiamine in the spring? I hope it doesnt seem like I'm trying to hijack this thread from the OP. He just asked the same question I've been having.


I'm not @jayhawk but I just did Specticle this spring for this reason. Curious to see what I get. My neighbor has an absolute salad bar and I am down hill from him. There is a pretty solid line where I've had some "drift" if you will at our property edges.

I feel for the cost, if you cared to save, to use Specticle during the fall since its an absolute bomb on anything cool season like poa. I think swapping MOA is ideal and thus using prodiamine or something like, oxadiazon for specific weed pressure.

Figure out what's your issue, if any, and use the proper stuff.

For me, if Specticle works year round with maybe a swap here or there then I will stick with with. What I spend on premergent saves me on post emergent.

I spend more on my neighbors post emergent than I do my own yard.


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## jayhawk (Apr 18, 2017)

@Shizzlestix66 I had a service that used Specticle fall and spring. It was total lockdown....nutsedge, would sparsely pop in late summer ...that's it.

My experience, granular applied dimension w/ronstar kicker was no where as effective. Could some of it be granular vs spray in a odd shaped yard?
What FATCITY said....
I'd use up other investments in spring ....but fall, I have yet to hear anyone disappointed w/Specticle. Once you used up the commodity stuff, then all Specticle should treat you well, did for my zoysia lawn.


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## Shizzlestix66 (Aug 30, 2020)

@FATC1TY @jayhawk 
Thanks for the advice.


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## GA250 (Jul 4, 2020)

Any options other than buying 2.5 gallons of Specticle? I only have 6k sqft


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

I just picked up Gallery (Isoxaben) and will be applying that in Mid Summer. It controls a lot more broad leaf weeds. My neighbors have a Speedwell and Purslane farm, and sometimes it decides to get in my yard. 
It doesn't control crabgrass. So I'll maintain my spring Prodiamine. 
Most of the weeds Gallery controls is what I have issues with Mid-Late summer, so hence the May-June application time for me. (I also may have a irrigation system installed this year, so I'd spray the Isoxaben after all the digging)


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@rjw0283 Isoxaben is a broadleaf only pre-emergent so you want to keep the prodiamine application along with Isoxaben. If you are trying to control late summer weeds it would be good to apply now.


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

cldrunner said:


> @rjw0283 Isoxaben is a broadleaf only pre-emergent so you want to keep the prodiamine application along with Isoxaben. If you are trying to control late summer weeds it would be good to apply now.


Yup, that's the plan with prodiamine. I'll still do split apps. I'm waiting on isoxaben because I'll be digging the yard up


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

GA250 said:


> Any options other than buying 2.5 gallons of Specticle? I only have 6k sqft


https://www.doyourownpestcontrol.com/SPEC/LABELS/Specticle_FLO_rate_chart.pdf
https://www.seedranch.com/Specticle-FLO-Herbicide-18-Ounces-p/specticle-flo-18oz.htm
https://www.domyown.com/specticle-flo-p-2797.html

Specticle Flo comes in 18 oz.

Specticle G comes in a 50 lb bag for about $100-105 at SiteOne. I would look for someone doing a split in the marketplace section since you only need about 2-3 oz per year for your yard.


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## Jbird95 (Jun 24, 2020)

cldrunner said:


> @Jbird95
> 
> I think that is a pretty good plan until you use up all your Dimension.
> 
> ...


@cldrunner 
What date are you targeting for specticle and Simazine?


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

I don't mean to sort of hijack the thread, but what if you always seem to have areas of bermuda that need filling in in the spring? Dimension? And what's the absolute earliest one can apply? (soil temp speaking)


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@Jbird95 I mix all three and going to apply in the next 5-10 days depending on rain forecast. I need rain for my non irrigated sections. Next app will be 45-60 day after. Really need to get down before the first cold front and rain.


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@Jbird95

I mix all three together.

I am targeting first app in 5-10 days depending on rain forecast. Then about 45 days later. I have about 16K non irrigated that I need to get watered in from rain.


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## heart_helper (Jan 20, 2021)

cldrunner said:


> @Jbird95 I mix all three and going to apply in the next 5-10 days depending on rain forecast. I need rain for my non irrigated sections. Next app will be 45-60 day after. Really need to get down before the first cold front and rain.


What are the three products? Prodiamine, Indaziflam, Simazine? What are your rates? Thanks


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

heart_helper said:


> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> > @Jbird95 I mix all three and going to apply in the next 5-10 days depending on rain forecast. I need rain for my non irrigated sections. Next app will be 45-60 day after. Really need to get down before the first cold front and rain.
> ...


Yes. I am using the max label rates for tiff 419 hybrid bermuda. Divided by four applications. Some are using Specticle compared to Esplanade(Indaziflam) and some use different types of prodiamine so that is why I just say max label not a given number.


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## heart_helper (Jan 20, 2021)

Jbird95 said:


> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> > @Jbird95
> ...


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## heart_helper (Jan 20, 2021)

cldrunner, I'm a little slow  so you would do the following, not the above.
August 25th - September 15th
1) Specticle (1/4 of max yearly rate which is 18.5 fl oz/acre)
2) Simaszine (.75 oz/1000 sq ft)
3) Prodiamine (1/4 of max yearly rate which is 0.36 - 0.83 oz/1000 sq ft)
Then repeat this dosing for the other days you have listed for a total of four times per year?
Thank you for your time in discussing this.


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## JW Burns (Jul 20, 2021)

I don't want to speak for @cldrunner but I copied this from a post he made earlier this month. This is the exact route I'm going to follow as well.

Feb 15-Mar 7th : Prodiamine(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)
May 1st: Prodiamine(HR)
August 25th - Sept 15 Specticle(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)
Nov 1 -15 Specticle(HR) + Simazine(.75 oz/1000)


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Something else worth considering is changing up your rotation year-to-year. For example, in the post above if you applied Prodiamine on May 1 every year, weeds that germinate in the June and July window would only be subjected to Group 3.

From that perspective I think you could make an argument that it could be just as (if not more) important to rotate MOA's "among growing seasons" as it is to rotate MOA's "within a growing season".


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@heart_helper 
My plan for the *next year*. I am mixing Indaziflam, Prodiamine, and Simazine. This does not mean I will use these same herbicides for years on end. As I deplete my supply of a herbicide It is highly likely that I will substitute another mode of action such as Pennant Magnum for the Prodiamine or Simazine .

Sept 7-15: Specticle Flo- .1063oz/1000, Prodiamine- .2075oz/1000, Simazine- .75oz/1000
45 days later: Exactly the same
March 1-7: Exactly the same
45 days later: Exactly the same

I will also add Celsius or Certainty if needed to the above mix. After one season of using the 3 MOA approach I do not see blanket spraying. The only need is an occassional spot spray.

@Ware 
In a recent Virginia Turfgrass Council publication it was stated that:



> What can we do to prevent the development of herbicide-resistant weeds? One should *rotate herbicide modes of action or look at tank mixes of herbicides *with different modes of action. *One does not need to do this every year*, but maybe *every three or four years*. For example, one could alternate use of a dinitroaniline herbicide like prodiamine with Specticle (indaziflam) or oxadiazon in bermudagrass turf on a golf course.


https://theturfzone.com/vtc/?ascat=8&sub=podcasts&pub=6663

One of the ways to delay weed resistance is to mix MOA's.
From the label of Coastal (Prodiamine + Simazine + Imazaquin):

_To delay herbicide resistance, take *one or more *of the following steps:
• Rotate the use of this product or other Group 2, 3, or 5 herbicides within a growing season sequence or among growing seasons with different herbicide groups that control the same weeds in a field.
• Use tank mixtures with herbicides from a different group if such use is permitted; where information on resistance in target weed species is available, use the less resistance-prone partner at a rate that will control the target weed(s) equally as well as the more resistance-prone partner.
• Scout after herbicide application to monitor weed populations for early signs of resistance development. 
• If a weed pest population continues to progress after treatment with this product, discontinue use of this product, and switch to another management strategy or herbicide with a different mode of action, if available._

From the Specticle label:
_*Prolonged* use of any herbicide with the same mode of action *may* lead to selection of resistant weed populations and a reduction in efficacy. Rotation of herbicides with an alternate mode of action can help prevent the development and spread of resistant weed populations. If resistance to SPECTICLE FLO is *suspected*, use a herbicide with an alternate mode of action._

Pennant Magnum Label:
_General principles of herbicide resistant weed management:
• Employ integrated weed management practices. Use multiple herbicide sites-of-action with *overlapping weed spectrums in rotation, sequences, or mixtures.*
• Use the *full herbicide rate* and proper application timing for the hardest to control weed species present in the field.
• Scout fields after herbicide application to ensure control has been achieved. Avoid allowing weeds to reproduce by seed or to proliferate vegetatively._

Another way to limit resistance is to not have weeds(limiting breakthrough). In other words a resistance is only presence after years of weeds dropping seeds after breakthrough and developing different resistant biotypes. Weeds do not develop resistance over one season or one year. It takes years.

Now with regard to practical. We buy these chemicals in bulk. I share with a neighbor so that helps with the bulk product. Once I buy Specticle/Esplanade I am not going to let it sit on the shelf for years as I rotate in other modes of action. I am more inclined to use it year round until I run out and then I can choose to use another mode of action like Pennant Magnum. In addition, I could choose to hold one of the longer shelf life less expensive herbicides (Prodiamine---longer shelf life) out of the rotation.

Professional applicators buy what they need for the season so they have better rotational possibilities. Most of the product I buy last for multiple years. Rotating every few years makes it more cost effective for us lawn guys.

Is weed resistance really an issue? Yes. It is a BIG issue in "crop" production because it lowers "yield". That means it is more expensive for farmers to grow crops to feed to animals and humans which raises the price of food in the long term. In golf course turf there has been POA resistance issues in some southern states. I suspect this is more of a aesthetic issue but also a cost issue to treat POA post emergent. Nobody want's their golf membership fees to increase.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2021)

https://secure.caes.uga.edu/extension/publications/files/pdf/B%201463_2.PDF


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## heart_helper (Jan 20, 2021)

@cldrunner Thanks for the great response


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## heart_helper (Jan 20, 2021)

I want to thank @cldrunner for his help. I put down Prodiamine, Simazine and Specticle Flo today. I had 4,000 sqft that could not be sprayed because of a right of way that had been destroyed and just seeded by the powerline company. I broke the remaining 8,000 sqft into two 4,000 sqft plots. Easy to calculate for a 4 gallon sprayer. Took me longer to mix than to actually spray I think. Went pretty well. My walking speed was a little off, but I will get better. Waiting for the next spray in 45 days.
Thanks again @cldrunner .


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## eric_s (Jul 14, 2021)

heart_helper said:


> I want to thank @cldrunner for his help. I put down Prodiamine, Simazine and Specticle Flo today. I had 4,000 sqft that could not be sprayed because of a right of way that had been destroyed and just seeded by the powerline company. I broke the remaining 8,000 sqft into two 4,000 sqft plots. Easy to calculate for a 4 gallon sprayer. Took me longer to mix than to actually spray I think. Went pretty well. My walking speed was a little off, but I will get better. Waiting for the next spray in 45 days.
> Thanks again @cldrunner .


I'm planning to do the same for the first time. Do Simazine and Specticle mix well? Did you do the compatibility test first?


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## ag_fishing (Feb 3, 2021)

@cldrunner why do you have 3 apps of simazine when the calendar max rate is only 2 apps? I assume you have a hybrid Bermuda


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## UltimateLawn (Sep 25, 2020)

eric_s said:


> I'm planning to do the same for the first time. Do Simazine and Specticle mix well? Did you do the compatibility test first?


@eric_s , I have not had any issue mixing Specticle with Simazine. My usual combination mix is Specticle, Simazine and Prodiamine.


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## eric_s (Jul 14, 2021)

Thank you @UltimateLawn


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## Bombers (Jul 14, 2020)

ag_fishing said:


> @cldrunner why do you have 3 apps of simazine when the calendar max rate is only 2 apps? I assume you have a hybrid Bermuda


He's actually doing 4 (unless I missed it somewhere). Regardless, he's taking the annual max and dividing it proportionately to the number of apps he's putting down yearly (two 1/4 rate apps fall and two 1/4 rate apps spring).


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## ag_fishing (Feb 3, 2021)

Bombers said:


> ag_fishing said:
> 
> 
> > @cldrunner why do you have 3 apps of simazine when the calendar max rate is only 2 apps? I assume you have a hybrid Bermuda
> ...


Except the max rate per app for hybrid bermuda is .75/1000 and can only be done twice in a year. I'm genuinely curious since it looks like he puts out double the max yearly rate for his bermuda. Unless he either has common bermuda or i'm reading the application instructions wrong for yearly max. I listed the label instructions below and am now confused :lol: Max is 3 qt/A per year, but max of 2 apps per year. I'm assuming that means one app of 2/A and the second at 1/A? 4 apps of .75/A would total 3/A which is what @cldrunner does, but I was assuming it meant only two .75/1000 apps per year for hybrid bermuda.

*Where annual bluegrass is the major weed, use 1 qt of Princep Liquid per acre (22 ml or 0.75 fl
oz/1,000 sq ft). Use 1-2 qt/A Princep Liquid (22-44 ml or 0.75-1.5 fl oz/1,000 sq ft) for control of other
weeds. However, do not exceed 1 qt/A of Princep Liquid per treatment on newly sprigged turfgrass
or on hybrid bermudagrass.

(9) Do not exceed 2 lb ai/A (2 qt/A of Princep Liquid) per application. (10) Do not exceed 3 qt/A Princep Liquid
(3 lb ai/A) per calendar year. (11) Maximum of 2 applications per year*


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## cldrunner (May 14, 2019)

@ag_fishing



ag_fishing said:


> @cldrunner why do you have 3 apps of simazine when the calendar max rate is only 2 apps? I assume you have a hybrid Bermuda


I apply a Fall*(1)* and a Spring*(2)* App but just happen to *split* each app by 45-60 days. I consider(maybe wrong--but I'm going with it) a split app a single application with two treatments. 

I apply on Hybrid, Common, and areas that have no grass. I try and read all the labels of the chemicals that I apply and keep the labels on my laptop for easy access. While I *try to follow the max label rates* to *avoid turf injury* sometimes it is hard to follow every label and every detail. If you are worried about the two apps then apply two times.


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## ag_fishing (Feb 3, 2021)

cldrunner said:


> @ag_fishing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I gotcha. This will be my first fall with Simazine so I was trying to understand the label better. I'm going to somewhat do what you do and apply 2 apps of .75/1000 45-60 days apart starting October 1


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## UltimateLawn (Sep 25, 2020)

The Simazine label app strategy is so confusing. They should re-org the label to make it easier to interpret app frequencies and volumes to establish a good pre-emergent plan using it.


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