# Tenacity with Dense Shade Mix??



## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

I have roughly 8,000 square feet of medium-to-densely shaded lawn. Because of the shade, competition for resources from tree roots, etc...my lawn is thin and tends to lay down rather than stand tall. This past fall I did an over-seeding with shade tolerant KBG (Mazama) and I had some success but not as much as I had hoped for. Now I think I need to do a follow-up seeding in the Spring with an even more shade-tolerant seed mix.

I know most of you will say wait until fall to over-seed again but my thinking is that I have so much shade and fairly short summers (in Wisconsin) that new grass should be able to withstand the summer stress. I seeded a small patch with Scott's Dense Shade Mix last year shortly before summer and it withstood the season just fine. I don't get much crabgrass and what I do get mostly stays next to the street curb so I'm not terribly worried about it out-competing grass seed.

I do, however have a few bare spots next to concrete that could be susceptible to crabgrass so I'm thinking about applying Tenacity as a pre-emergent or Scott's Starter Fert + Weed Preventer, which also has Mesotrione as the active ingredient, at the time of seeding. But (and you probably know where this is going by now) the Tenacity label says it should not be used as a pre-em with fine and hard fescues. Dense shade mixes tend to have a lot of fine fescue, and I assume this goes for the Scott's brand as well, but I can't seem to find what percentage of the mix is fine fescue. The tenacity label suggests anything under 20% fine fescue should be OK. Does anyone here know what percentage of the Scott's Dense Shade Mix is fine fescue and/or has anyone here seeded with that (or something similar) after applying Mesotrione as a pre-em?


----------



## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

Besides limiting sunlight, trees will rob the soil of minors and other nutrients. Here are some things U can do to limit damage from the trees

Trim the trees to allow more sunlight

Feed the tree via it's trunk. Products like Krystal Klear® ResQ, N-Ext 0-0-2 or 4-0-2, can be mixed with water and sprayed on the trunk every other week

Use tree watering spikes to water that trees every other week starting during late spring

Apply humic acid monthly


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

ThePowerTool said:


> Does anyone here know what percentage of the Scott's Dense Shade Mix is fine fescue and/or has anyone here seeded with that (or something similar) after applying Mesotrione as a pre-em?


Do you have an image of the tag with seeds from the bag?


----------



## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

g-man said:


> Do you have an image of the tag with seeds from the bag?


Unfortunately I don't have any on-hand and the images I found online didn't show a seed tag.


----------



## dicko1 (Oct 25, 2019)

This is from Lowes website for Scotts Dense Shade under "Community Q&A"
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Scotts-7-lb-Dense-Shade-Seed/4067566

It looks like the percentages are by weight because it appears to include the seed coating. So, what, multiply the numbers by 2 to get the seed only??

"We are happy to assist you with your question concerning Scotts Turf Builder Grass Seed Dense Shade Mix. This mixture of seed contains 20% Duration Tall Fescue, 8% Wendy Jean Fine Fescue, 3% Avalanche Kentucky Bluegrass, 19% Endeaver II Tall Fescue, and 50% WaterSmart Plus Coating. The coating enables the seed to be water absorbent but also contains fertilizer and fungicide. If you need other questions addressed, contact us at the following link: http://tinyurl.com/mds8zo5"


----------



## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

****o1 said:


> This is from Lowes website for Scotts Dense Shade under "Community Q&A"
> https://www.lowes.com/pd/Scotts-7-lb-Dense-Shade-Seed/4067566
> 
> It looks like the percentages are by weight because it appears to include the seed coating. So, what, multiply the numbers by 2 to get the seed only??
> ...


Oh good find, thanks. So that puts it at about 16% fine fescue, which is a lot less than I expected. At that percentage, do you think it would be safe to use Tenacity as a pre-em when I plant this stuff?


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

You will most likely have damage to the FF, but it should be tolerable, since the % of FF is minimal. Are you really set on this mix?

Seed Superstore is a little pricey, but they have good seed. Their SS 1002 Tall Fescue Shade blend may be an option for you, if you're concerned about stand loss of FF with Tenacity use. TTTF is not as shade tolerant as FF, but it might be worth a try. I used it (different cultivars) a few years ago in a fairly shady area, and it helped some. It germinates almost as quickly as ryegrass, so it might be helpful for spring seeding. Also, you could try growing seed pots over the winter to transplant in larger bare spots.

@troksd has some good suggestions. I've been battling a densely shaded area with tree roots and I tried a "drill and fill" technique with Mason sand this year, which helped a little bit. Feel free to check out my journal. I will be trying foliar apps of ammonium sulfate 21-0-0 to spoonfeed the area in the spring. I've been overseeding with Bewitched for a few years with minimal success and tried Mazama (with topsoil covering) this past fall with a little better results, but still have a way to go. I might even throw some PRG seed down in a small spot as an experiment to get a little better cover to help with traffic tolerance (even though it will croak after the tree canopy fills in).


----------



## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

Chris LI said:


> You will most likely have damage to the FF, but it should be tolerable, since the % of FF is minimal. Are you really set on this mix?
> 
> Seed Superstore is a little pricey, but they have good seed. Their SS 1002 Tall Fescue Shade blend may be an option for you, if you're concerned about stand loss of FF with Tenacity use. TTTF is not as shade tolerant as FF, but it might be worth a try. I used it (different cultivars) a few years ago in a fairly shady area, and it helped some. It germinates almost as quickly as ryegrass, so it might be helpful for spring seeding. Also, you could try growing seed pots over the winter to transplant in larger bare spots.


I am not particularly set on this mix, I just had some success with it last year when I filled some bare spots with it. I also tried overseeding with Mazama KBG (purchased from Seed Super Store) but I had very limited success with that which is why I still have so many bare and thin areas.

When I use the "Find Your Perfect Seed" option at the Super Store, they recommend a blend consisting almost entirely of fine and creeping fescues which I did not want to use for the reasons I listed above. Mostly, that I'm going to skip the spring pre-emergent application so I need to use Tenacity to prevent crabgrass in the few areas where it does grow. I may take a look at that shady TTTF blend, I previously didn't think I had much TTTF but now I'm not so sure after seeing how high the percentage is in the Scott's mix.

I am definitely going to use some of those other suggestions. I was already feeding my lawn with micros from the N-EXT line but I never thought about the fact that my trees were probably stealing it. I love most of my trees (a few I could do without) but, man, they do make lawn care difficult.


----------



## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

ThePowerTool said:


> I love most of my trees (a few I could do without) but, man, they do make lawn care difficult.


Yup, exactly! I'm in the same boat. The real trouble area for me is under a Norway maple, which has a dense surface root system. It is placed well to provide shade for the house and backyard to keep everything cooler in the summer, so I try to work with it to grow some decent turf. It will always be an uphill battle, so that's why I'm starting to throw the kitchen sink at it, with the suggestions I mentioned. Good luck!


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@ThePowerTool, here is the label from a current bag of Scotts Dense Shade I looked at in a store:
And yes, you double the lbs of seed used, all the label percentages, etc., due the 50% from the coating, if present. This bag was uncoated seed, though. Typically Scotts seed is less than or equal to 0.02% weed seed; this particular batch is higher than is typical for them.


----------



## ThePowerTool (Dec 15, 2019)

Green said:


> here is the label from a current bag of Scotts Dense Shade I looked at in a store:
> And yes, you double the lbs of seed used, all the label percentages, etc., due the 50% from the coating, if present. This bag was uncoated seed, though. Typically Scotts seed is less than or equal to 0.02% weed seed; this particular batch is higher than is typical for them.


Thanks for finding that, stores by me aren't stocking grass seed right now so this is helpful. It seems like this un-coated mix leans more heavily on TTTF than I would have expected, just like the coated stuff.

Does anyone happen to know if TTTF will lay flat when it doesn't receive enough direct sunlight? The grass on the south side of my property is pretty thoroughly shaded and it lays really flat which drives me crazy. I always thought it looked like fine fescue, but after seeing the amount of TTTF in these shade mixes, I'm starting to wonder if it's just TTTF that doesn't get enough sun. I ask because I'm starting to lean towards one of these TTTF heavy mixes, or perhaps the Seed Super Store blend mentioned previously but I don't want even more grass that will just lay flat.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

ThePowerTool said:


> Does anyone happen to know if TTTF will lay flat when it doesn't receive enough direct sunlight? The grass on the south side of my property is pretty thoroughly shaded and it lays really flat which drives me crazy. I always thought it looked like fine fescue, but after seeing the amount of TTTF in these shade mixes, I'm starting to wonder if it's just TTTF that doesn't get enough sun.


All grasses do that, and TTTF is no exception. But it seems to do it less so than other cool-season types. And they all mat down from traffic or drought. The primary way of telling TTTF and TTPR from FF is texture (blade width). And TTTF is an even wider blade than TTPR (which can be almost as fine as FF in some cases, or as wide as TTTF in others). Also, FF very often rolls up on itself and looks even thinner, like pine needles. TF and PR only really only do this under stress. All three are related; obviously Tall and Fine Fescue are both types of Fescue. But Tall Fescue and Ryegrasses are closely related, too. This time of year, TTTF tends to be needled up like FF due to the cold, so it might be hard to tell apart right now.

For shade, a mix of mostly TTTF with a lower percentage of FF will often make a higher quality stand (less laying down, better color, and better traffic tolerance) than FF alone. It's definitely the way to go; those mixes at SSS and by Scotts were created for high turf quality and not just shade tolerance. And these are the two most shade tolerant species, with FF having a bit of an edge over TTTF. Both are far more shade tolerant than the most shade tolerant KBG and PR.


----------

