# Crabgrass, I thought?



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Sprayed some Quinclorac on what I thought was Crabgrass last weekend. With no results. I'm now wandering if this is Goosegrass. Any help identifying is appreciated.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

It does look kind of like Goosegrass, you will need something labeled for grassy weeds.


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## Tex86 (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm not an expert of weed ID. However, my Mom's yard was infested with goosegrass. Goosegrass differs from crabgrass on the seed heads, as well as the base looking like a wagon wheel. She tired all different kinds of treatments and the only one that worked for her was to hand pull them out. If it is goosegrass then the roots are shallow and are able to extract by hand without leaving too much of the root system in play.

I don't have any experience with Celsius, but that may be an option as well. I'm sure others will chime in.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

I don't see Goosegrass on the label but it might go by another name. I don't see how Celsius couldn't kill it unless it was a Sedge of some sort.


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## southernguy311 (Mar 17, 2017)

That is definitely goosegrass.

Quinclorac doesn't touch it.

You need to find something with Sulfentrazone. Depot and Lowe's both carry an ortho southern weed killer with that as an ingredient. It will take multiple sprays to get rid of it.

As a side note, goosegrass loves compacted soil. It's telling you something. Aerate, spray Sulfentrazone, and get on a PreM program and you will be in the clear in no time. 
Goosegrass is one of the fastest spreading weeds you can get due to the thousand of seeds produced by a single stalk so it can be very frustrating.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

southernguy311 said:


> That is definitely goosegrass.
> 
> Quinclorac doesn't touch it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the identification. I actually picked up some Dismiss (Sulfentrazone) last month for the nutsedge. I guess the Scotts (pendimethalin) didn't work for me on the Goosegrass. I have since picked up some prodiamine for future pre-m.

Matt


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## slomo (Jun 22, 2017)

Revolver will knock it out. VERY pricey though. Like $250.00 per quart. Definitely "resembles" goose grass.

slomo


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Tribute total would also be a contender for post emergent. I am assuming you have Bermuda turfgrass. Also, oxadiazon is allegedly the best Pre-em for goosegrass.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

I've got Sulfentrazone and recently picked up MSMA on hand I'm going to give those a shoot


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Tribute total would also be a contender for post emergent. I am assuming you have Bermuda turfgrass. Also, oxadiazon is allegedly the best Pre-em for goosegrass.


Tribute Total is WAY expensive for what you get, I'll give you that it's nice to have it kill everything in one bottle but I don't think the cost justifies it especially for a homeowner. $350 for a 6oz. bottle is a little ridiculous. You could buy Celsius and Certainty for half that price and get the same kind of control and they would last a lot longer.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Bayer most think they have liquid gold in these herbicides. On another note it looks like Sulfonylurea's can kill weeds and treat diabetes!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Mightyquinn said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> > Tribute total would also be a contender for post emergent. I am assuming you have Bermuda turfgrass. Also, oxadiazon is allegedly the best Pre-em for goosegrass.
> ...


I absolutely concur with you; just providing the info. With that being said, I used the University of Tennessee's mobile weed manual. If you put in your turfgrass, whether seeking a pre or post emergent, and the weed you are trying to control, the manual provides a list of options and their respective effectiveness.

http://www.mobileweedmanual.com/default.aspx


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Movingshrub said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> > Movingshrub said:
> ...


That is a pretty neat tool, thanks for sharing :thumbup:


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

This is 5 days post Quicksilver on my Goosgrass.
Literally 9 drops of quick silver in 1 gallon of water.
Bermuda is a little mad but not dead.


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## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Tellycoleman said:


> This is 5 days post Quicksilver on my Goosgrass.
> Literally 9 drops of quick silver in 1 gallon of water.
> Bermuda is a little mad but not dead.


Interesting, it looks like Carfentrazone (Quicksilver) and Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) are from the same chemical family. But Sulfentazone has more soil activity and is great at killing Sedges. Where Carfentrazone has more activity against broadleaf weeds.

I end up using MSMA on my Goosegrass. I sprayed two days ago and I'm seeing great activity from the MSMA. I'll try to post my results in the next few days to compare.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Morning, all!

QUESTION: can any of you tell me what the U of TN mobile weed manual is referring to (*what is meant by "sequentially"*) under the following "Remarks and Precautions" for using EITHER SpeedZone +/or SpeedZoneSOUTHern against crabgrass?

<snip>"_When used for postemergence goosegrass contol, this herbicide must be applied sequentially to be effective. Turfgrass competition in treated areas will improve performance_."<end-snip>

I am going to read the labels FOR BOTH SpeedZone AND SpeedZoneSOUTHern thoroughly (making a second pot of coffee, right now!  but, at the same time I thought I'd inquire here - of *any of you who've actually dealt with goosegrass successfully OR who have actual experience with SpeedZone against goosegrass* - to see if I am (*am I?) correct in my assumption all they are referring to is a 2nd (possibly a 3rd) re-application 7- or 10- to 14- days after the preceding spray*? Does that sound right?

As I type this I realize I may be reading too much into the term "sequentially" and it is likely I am since, as I mention in another thread, I have been blindsided by goosegrass. I really am extremely thankful for this thread and particularly grateful for that U of Tenn "mobile weed manual" , movingshrub, THANK YOU!

I have been pretty anxiously researching the most effective solution as our yard will be used for at least one wedding later this year and even though thoughts of "a thousand brown spots" across sections of the yard are nerve-racking, I am so committed to eradicating these goose spots that I was actually on the verge of Glysophate-ing each one. (Saying, "To h_ll with it," and just hoping the surrounding tall and fine fescue would "fill-in" the brown spots (particularly as I'll be using plant growth regulators in these same areas, starting in a month or so ...)

Up until a moment ago I was somewhat disheartened over the prospect of another "couple hundred dollars for a couple ounces of liquid yarden gold" appearing as a line item on our 2018 household budget (again, so soon after I stocked up on what I thought was everything I needed to last me this year and we'll into next!)

AND THEN (thanks to that U of TN mobile weed manual, movingshrub! :thumbup: ) I discover perhaps the best solution is something I already have an ample amount of leftover from 2015 - SpeedZone! (NOTE to differentiate from SpeedZoneSOUTHern) It has been stored carefully so, I intend to try that first, before resorting to "the nuclear option" of Glysophate ...

*UPDATES*: well, on one hand, it is interesting that the U of TN mobile weed manual stresses the need for sequential applications of EITHER SpeedZone +/or SpeedZoneSOUTHern for goosegrass but, whereas the actual label for SpeedZoneSOUTHern only says a second app. "may" be needed

NOTE: that the actual term "goosegrass" only appears once across the entire SpeedZoneSOUTHern label WHILE neither the term "goosegrass" or even "grassy" show up AT ALL anywhere on the label for SpeedZone

On the other hand, *the SpeedZoneSOUTHern label specifically states DO NOT APPLY MORE THAN TWO (2) SPOT TREATMENTS PER YEAR ... and ... A MINIMUM OF 30 DAYS IS REQUIRED BETWEEN APPLICATIONS" so, that settles that *(I tend to follow labels to the letter) ...

On the plus side, getting my first app. down today will put my second spray around the second week of May - and thus juuuuuuuuust ahead of temps so high that the surrounding turf would be stressed (I do recall SpeedZone is best avoided when TTTF is stressed whether the stress is caused by heat or cold or drought or over-irrigation.)

So, fingers crossed, for better or for worse, Here We Go!!!!!


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Well, I am glad I like to read chemical labels!

The labels for SpeedZone vs SpeedZoneSOUTHern are VERY MUCH DIFFERENT and a reminder to me as to the importance of reading labels, thoroughly (and not ASSuming as I occassionally am wont to do! 

I do find it interesting that SpeedZone actually contains SIGNIFICANTLY MORE of all the same FOURactive ingredients as SpeedZoneSOUTHern (actually, 3 of the 4 active ingredients SpeedZone are double the concentrations in SpeedZoneSOUTHern) and yet "goosegrass" and "grassy weeds" are only mentioned on the label of the lower concentration SpeedZoneSOUTHern label ...

I do remember one workshop I attended mentioning the differentiation between the SpeedZone vs the SpeedZone"Southern" mix was in part due to the higher concentrations of ester in the former and therefore increased risk of phytotoxicity in the hotter, southern climes. (I'm in a transition zone in the higher elevations of foothills to the Great Smokies and, being far enough south to experience "southern weeds" it's cool enough here that I've had success limiting my use of SpeedZone to when temps are above 50^F and lower than 80^F and the turf is not otherwise stressed by drought or over irrigation.)


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Where is the part that says multiple apps required? I went and looked it up on the UT tool and didn't see it.

Regarding sequential apps, I'd assume that means 2-3 weeks later, until dead.

Speed zone is basically three way plus quicksilver.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I assume the lower concentration product is so the herbicide can be used on "southern" grass like st aug or centipede. With that being said, I haven't read the label for either to confirm what grasses are comparable.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Speedzone Southern uses a lower rate of the Phenoxy herbicides but keeps the Carfentrazone up. That is how it may be safely applied under certain conditions to Centipede and St Augustine. Speedzone Red, the Northern grass formula is for cool season grasses and Bermuda or Zoysia only. The amount of 2,4-D applied in that formula will stress and possibly kill Centipede or St Augustine.



> by high leverage » Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:20 am
> 
> Tellycoleman wrote: ↑
> Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:01 am
> ...


I deal with Goosegrass on a regular basis in my area. You all have the good fortune of several months of frost and ice to keep it from becoming perennial.
MSMA+either SImazine or else Sencor(Metribuzin) were the long time standards for control. Then came Revolver. Thanks to golf courses not using it effectively and as part of a comprehensive program including preemergent herbicides, I have Revolver resistant Goosegrass here. There is also RoundUp resistant Goosegrass as well. Not the golf courses fault, I do not think, more like everyone else using Glyphosate to the exclusion of all other non crop herbicides.

When Goosegrass is a problem, I suggest split applications of Prodiamine or else Specticle. The amount needed is stressful to the turf if applied all at once. On emerged Goosegrass, I start with a Revolver +Dismiss application or else Speedzone Southern + Revolver application. Survivors of that are treated with Tenacity + Sencor or Simazine, or else Pylex+Sencor. These two treatments are not to be used on Zoysia. But Zoysia may be treated with Fusilade + Triclopyr. Anything living through that is spot treated with Fusilade + high rate RoundUp.

I do not even mention MSMA, because* ALL* pesticides are tracked by the Hawaii DOA from the time they come off the ship to the final consumer if it is a commercial product. Therefore, no one will sell MSMA to you unless you are a golf course because they are breaking the law to sell it and you are buying it.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

@Greendoc I can buy 2.5gal of MSMA off the shelf at my local farm and ranch store. The label does say it's not to be used on residential turf, only 100sqft of golf course and something about cotton.

I think the reasoning for banning it was ludicrous in the first place. Some golf course in Florida sprayed it before a rainstorm then the gov't found it in the pond on the course.... well no s***


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

J_nick said:


> @Greendoc I can buy 2.5gal of MSMA off the shelf at my local farm and ranch store. The label does say it's not to be used on residential turf, only 100sqft of golf course and something about cotton.
> 
> I think the reasoning for banning it was ludicrous in the first place. Some golf course in Florida sprayed it before a rainstorm then the gov't found it in the pond on the course.... well no s***


+1
We both had great success with during our renovation last year.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Lucky you. I thought the reasons for the ban were ridiculous as well. But, actions have consequences. I am on another forum with lawn care professionals from Florida. I think they are their own worst enemy. Some of them have challenged my policy of no applications prior to heavy rains being forecast. In the southernmost part of Florida, there are daily thunderstorms of 1-3" from June-September. I would use the time between October-May to get my weed control in order. I have a similar situation where bad weather is guaranteed from October-May. My lawns that have weed issues that have not been controlled by low mowing and fertilization get a pre application of Prodiamine and Gallery or else Specticle. I do not want to be the reason why our overzealous Department of Health and Department of Agriculture has a reason to go after pesticides even more than they already do because I applied before flash flooding. I have terminated service to customers that have argued with me about applying during bad weather. No Lawn For You!!! Next!!!.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Goosegrass. Use sulfentrazone + revolver = best control. Keep an eye on it post-app and wait to see if it starts to return...the moment it starts to resemble life, hit it again. This stuff is starting to give us golf guys a fit - we are starting to see round-up resistant goosegrass - a nightmare scenario for us warm season guys,


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Goosegrass. Use sulfentrazone + revolver = best control. Keep an eye on it post-app and wait to see if it starts to return...the moment it starts to resemble life, hit it again. This stuff is starting to give us golf guys a fit - we are starting to see round-up resistant goosegrass - a nightmare scenario for us warm season guys,


X2 We already have it here in Hawaii. For spot treating Goosegrass that has survived selectives, the golf guys have had to switch to Fusilade, Finale, or Diquat. With our 12 month growing season, any area with a Goosegrass problem then needs a pre program that runs all year long as well.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> viva_oldtrafford said:
> 
> 
> > Goosegrass. Use sulfentrazone + revolver = best control. Keep an eye on it post-app and wait to see if it starts to return...the moment it starts to resemble life, hit it again. This stuff is starting to give us golf guys a fit - we are starting to see round-up resistant goosegrass - a nightmare scenario for us warm season guys,
> ...


Not sure if you have access to Ronstar, but I would highly recommend it. I've tried everything on the market, but nothing can control goose like Ronstar. The only downside is that it's not labeled for greens...nor are any of the post products outside of revolver (which is just using a bb gun to stop a freight train). Hand pulling is slowly becoming the alternative.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I have access to Ronstar, with the understanding that it is only for use on landscape beds and non crop area if applied in residential areas. That's out. I use Specticle alternated with Prodiamine for my Pre. Here is something that is labeled for greens and fairways. https://andersonsplantnutrient.com/turf/golf/goosecrab Bensulide(Betasan)+Oxadiazon(Ronstar). Labeled for application to Bermuda greens.

The problem is so bad, that the golf guys have been using Pylex+Sencor or else Tenacity+Sencor with the understanding that if they torch the greens no crying to anyone. Most of the Goosegrass is also Revolver resistant here.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Want to post a quick (but VERY sincere) THANK YOU to y'all for shortening my torture, err, learning curve . . .

Adding insult to injury, I was walking the yard at sunrise today and it dawned on me even the whitetail deer population that has kept my entire lawn to 1/4" - 1/2" since November isn't touching the goose grass . . . Arghhhhhh!!!!!!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

440mag said:


> Want to post a quick (but VERY sincere) THANK YOU to y'all for shortening my torture, err, learning curve . . .
> 
> Adding insult to injury, I was walking the yard at sunrise today and it dawned on me even the whitetail deer population that has kept my entire lawn to 1/4" - 1/2" since November isn't touching the goose grass . . . Arghhhhhh!!!!!!


What did you end up using on the goosegrass?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Since your regulatory agencies are not as off the chain as mine are in Hawaii, a less costly option is Princep or Simazine and MSMA. MSMA by itself will temporarily defoliate Goosegrass but not necessarily root kill it. The Simazine will also act as a pre against the seeds in the soil around the emerged Goosegrass plant.

When it was legal for me to apply both, I would use 1 lb per acre Simazine and 64 oz MSMA 6.0. Cheap, effective and also tolerated by El Toro Zoysia. The current treatment utilizing the bleaching herbicides and Sencor kills Zoysia.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> What did you end up using on the goosegrass?


For now - and after researching the "cool grass efficacy" of the chemicals mentioned, it appears I am going to resolve myself to hand pulling (as my 7-year old granddaughter would say,_ "Suck it up and get to it, buttercup!"_ I can't imagine who ever taught her to say things like that!  )

Since my doing so will obviously break the prodiamine barrier in the exact spots I yank the root clusters, I will dribble some seed in each "divot" and hope for the best ... I will also follow up in 2 weeks with another app. of SpeedZone as I am seeing some withering effects from the SpeedZone I applied this past Saturday. But, of course, that doesn't include any of the mature (more than 3 or 4 stem) clumps ...

I must admit I am VERY confused by this outbreak as I applied a very, VERY consistent spray of prodiamine on Feb. 12 and what I've read indicates this should have really prevented goosegrass and also orchardgrass which I am also finding, now that I'm really down on my hands and knees for extended periods. Very bizarre.

Oh well, I s0ent the better part of the first 2 years we owned this estate attacking all weeds by hand -the roots of these grasses are shallow enough they should be child's play to a lot of others I can think of. I just keep looking down the hill at the dock and a brand new Yamaha VXR just sitting, cuz I'm back to crawling around the yard, hand-pulling goosegrass and orchard grass. Sigh. _* "Suck it up and get to it, buttercup!"*_


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In Tall Fescue, you can apply rates of either Pylex or Tenacity that I cannot apply to Bermuda. You also have the option of Acclaim Extra. That one is related to Fusilade, but much more selective and safe on cool season grasses. It is also $100 or so for a pint which is the suggested amount for an acre.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

@Greendoc, Thanks (back after a couple days consumed by non-lawn issues!), I just happen to have some Tenacity on hand; and, given I applied SpeedZone as a first "fire for effect" on April 8 I may use that remaining Tenacity next, after an appropriate window of recovery time for the fescue. Luckily (hopefully!) we are still far enough out from the higher temp weeks and months that I am ahead of any increased phyto-toxicity risks.

I did make it out to start hand pulling and observed that SpeedZone I applied on April 8 did have good effect on the very immature goosegrass but, not so much the more mature stuff. So, I tanked up some concentrate of glysophate and spent several hours spot-spraying the bullseye center of each goosegrass bunch and any blades I could get without too much collateral damage of the surrounding turf . . . that was Friday and waiting to see how many mature bunches it knocks out (or even back). Hopefully that will reduce the number of bunches I have to hand pull ... (I realize the glysophate would have much more effect on the outer blades but, "do the least harm" (to the surrounding good turf) is the byword, right now.)

Last night while doing some casual research I came across the factoid that prodiamine really is not effective as a pre-emergent, for preventing goosegrass and that dithiopyr is. Well, wouldn't ya just know it; my pre-m regimen this year consisted of Tenacity simultaneous to some reseeding, followed a month later by a very, very complete coverage of prodiamine so, at least now I am not so baffled about how this goosegrass got "through the wire" on me ...

Nasty, nasty stuff, this . . .


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Goosegrass control with Prodiamine takes rates near the annual maximum. So if using the DF, that is two 1 lb applications applied 30-45 days apart. A single application at the low to medium rate is not enough.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

LOL, well, I won't be forgetting THAT anytime soon!

Particularly after I went out yesterday and today and discovered the label rate of glysophate HAS NOT SO MUCH AS PHASED (let alone "dented") the goose grass I hit 5 days ago! :shock:

What caught my eye as we were driving out the front gate yesterday were blades of goose that were actually upright and growing just dandy!

First time I've EVER dealt with this stuff but, it is kraaaaazeeee!


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

My Goosegrass lives it up in above freezing temperature and a lot of rain. So it gets big and bad. Hitting it with Tenacity 2-3 times at that 1 teaspoon per 2 gallons is one way to get it. Other mix that is somewhat of a torch is Dismiss+Tenacity. Tenacity combines and interacts with a number of herbicides such that 2+2=5. With Dismiss, the effect is that the whitening is turned down and the effect is more brown. I personally do not care as long as it is a dead weed next month.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

Greendic, THANK YOU! Dropping the other "to do" plans I had to go and stalk the yard (every inch, quite literally :-/ and try the Tenacity ... fingers crossed I don't need to order any Di$mi$$ (this time of year the budget turns to water sports and fuel for the speedboat and jet skis!!! :thumbup: :mrgreen:


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Go get em'. That Goosegrass will light up bright white the first time, what you do with it after it is visible is up to you. Repeated applications at that 1 teaspoon per 2 gallons will make it surrender. But, you are not done yet. It is not too late for the second application of Prodiamine. Your first application is still there, just needs the other lb applied.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

He-he, with substantial rain in the forecast for next week, that second app. just rocketed to the top of my priority list (race against us closing down operations for a couple back-to-back out of state road trips ... :-O !)


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