# Anyone have a full shade lawn??



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Hey All

Soooo... Long story short.. We fell in love with a property in the woods. It gets practically no sun in the summer. I'm curious how many of you have had success in shade. I know I won't be able to do the KBG blend I used at the old house, so I'm trying to set my expectations lower. I really loved that lawn..  Please someone give me some hope, post some photos!!

Thanks


----------



## ENVY23 (Sep 14, 2021)

I had KBG at my old house, but there was one side of my driveway that was very dense shade. I decided to do a Bewitched monostand there since it was the most shade tolerant KBG I could find, but it just didn't work out. I ultimately overseeded with SeedSuperstore's SS1002 Shade Blend(Tall Fescue) and was finally able to have a nice thick stand of turf for the first time in that area. We were there for 3 years afterwards and it still looked great, but I did overseed right before we decided we were moving. I don't have any pics, but it is possible to make it work. IMO, that blend looked great and was a nice dark green. I'd recommend seeding about a month earlier than normal though, otherwise the shade gets compounded by less daylight hours later in the fall.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I have a few smaller areas with shade and one that also has heavy tree root competition. I've learned about fine Fescues in depth over the last year because of this. I'm planning overseeds of those areas this Spring. I do find the Spring seedings to work best for those shady areas.

Chewings Fescue is likely your new best friend for the most shady areas that even Tall Fescue struggles with. I'm trying "Rushmore".

Sorry, no photos available at the moment.


----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

I struggle with deep shade too. The blue hostas love it. The grass does not. I've had ok luck with tttf, but it requires lots of seeding touch ups in fall and even spring under those trees. Still, the fine fescue I did have there just looks so different than the tall fescue in my lawn that I consider the extra effort worth it.

Here's my shade challenge in the growing season;


----------



## Lawnbadix (10 mo ago)

Poa Supina- take a look at it.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Fine fescues are your best bet for dense shade - creeping red, Chewings, hard and sheep fescues are the fine fescues. Chewings is the most shade tolerant, but not good at much else. Planting a fine fescue blend is probably your best option - especially creeping red which is a rhizomatous grass which will self-repair.

Note that if you have a lot of surface tree roots - especially from maples, growing anything will be a challenge.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)




----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

g-man said:


>


I laughed. Well played.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

g-man said:


>


Works fine if you want to clear cut your yard. I was assuming @GrassDaddy and @LawnNoob wanted to keep their trees.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


Why am I not surprised by the tree cutting photo...g-man, lol.
Seems like everyone has been cutting down trees in my area. Grassdaddy's terrain is like mine....where we live was originally Northeast forest. I'm trying to undo a bit of the tree loss recently.


----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

Green said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


I kind of dig trees with character too. I strive for a balance between lawn and canopy.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Green said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > g-man said:
> ...


I like to think of lawn as a side dish rather than a main course. Lawn areas provide pathways and gathering places in and around trees, shrubs and garden areas.


----------



## Lawn Noob (Jul 26, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Deadlawn said:
> ...


We can be friends.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Lawn Noob said:


> We can be friends.


Who says we aren't?


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Lawn Noob said:
> 
> 
> > We can be friends.
> ...


It's because we all live in the NorthEast and mid atlantic...and have what was forest, even in our neighborhoods.

Sorry @GrassDaddy...didn't mean to detract from your topic!


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Chewings is the most shade tolerant, but not good at much else. Planting a fine fescue blend is probably your best option - especially creeping red which is a rhizomatous grass which will self-repair.


Not so fast! Lol. Chewings is also super dense, and can be like carpet with 2 lbs of N year at the right times! Literally a weed barrier (not to mention it's also allelopathic, which keeps weeds out too). And salt tolerant.

There is also at least one Chewings/Creeping Red hybrid..."Seabreeze GT". It's gly tolerant!


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Green said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Chewings is the most shade tolerant, but not good at much else. Planting a fine fescue blend is probably your best option - especially creeping red which is a rhizomatous grass which will self-repair.
> ...


Chewings super dense? Isn't Chewings a bunch grass? And I think it's creeping red that is allelopathic and salt tolerant.


----------



## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

When the leaves are on the trees, the lawn receives shade till mid-morning then shade starts again late afternoon. Lawn receives the most sun during summer when the sun passes directly overhead for several hours. Essentially, the lawn receives differing amounts of sun and shade throughout the year. Lawn is not a monoculture. I'm improving the soil and letting the grass & clover grow somewhat tall.

May 2021 early morning



Sep 2021 late afternoon


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Powhatan said:


> When the leaves are on the trees, the lawn receives shade till mid-morning then shade starts again late afternoon. Lawn receives the most sun during summer when the sun passes directly overhead for several hours. Essentially, the lawn receives differing amounts of sun and shade throughout the year. Lawn is not a monoculture. I'm improving the soil and letting the grass & clover grow somewhat tall.
> 
> May 2021 early morning
> 
> ...


I plant clover in my lawn too. Clover seems to do best in paritial shade and will perish in full sun - at least in my lawn.

One of upsides (and downsides) of clover is it has rhizomes and spreads. This is great in the middle of a lawn area, but not so great when it encroaches on garden beds.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Oh I'd clear cut in a heartbeat but these trees are huge so I'd have to hire it out and it'll cost a ton &#128556;

I did order that SSS blend and will try that first. I really don't like the fine fescues but I may end up having to aquire that taste out of necessity.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Deadlawn said:
> ...


Yeah, Chewings. It's the most dense because of the fine blades and bunch habit. Creeping Reds are looser growing, especially "Strong"...the rhizomes push the plants further away.

I think they're all allelopathic, now that you mention it.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

GrassDaddy said:


> I did order that SSS blend and will try that first. I really don't like the fine fescues but I may end up having to aquire that taste out of necessity.


The SS1002 (Tall Fescue)? Or Fine? Are you looking to do a Spring seeding, or wait until mid Summer? And can you do anything about the rocks/bumpy ground? Btw, speaking of which, that desiccant thing from the pill bottles was hilarious...you had me going for a while last year with it, and I thought you were going nuts, lol!


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Green said:


> Deadlawn said:
> 
> 
> > Green said:
> ...


Don't all fine fescues have fine blades - hence the name fine fescue? And sure, bunch grasses can widen and thicken, but rhizomatous (spreading) grasses are able to self-repair better when some of the plants perish.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Green said:


> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> > I did order that SSS blend and will try that first. I really don't like the fine fescues but I may end up having to aquire that taste out of necessity.
> ...


I think it's tttf. And seeding this spring. Not gonna do anything with the rocks, not in the budget nor time due to ongoing family issues. But if I can get just SOME green it'll make me happy.

This year I was gonna do a video of me filling in the pond in front of the house to turn into lawn. I have some landscape buddies with trucks etc. But looks like I won't have time to this year, maybe next 🤣


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Deadlawn, of course. But Creeping Red is sometimes a "less fine" blade than the other FFs. And the more rhizomatous the FF species, the less dense it tends to be, on average. Chewings is also a type of red fescue, but has almost no rhizomes, so it's denser due relying almost fully on basal tillering, with tiller plants right near each other. Slender Creeping Red is intermediate, and Strong Creeping Red tends to be the least dense of the 3 due to its longer rhizomes and less basal tillering. Hard Fescue is the odd one out...it's the most bunchy and has no rhizomes at all and just tillers to spread, but is less aggressive at tillering than the other 3 as it's in a separate species complex. But still very useful. I consider it "the tall fescue of fine fescues" because of its heat tolerance and dark green color.

@GrassDaddy, keep us updated with the seeding, etc. Interested to follow. Since TTTF looks "kinda" similar to KBG, you'll probably be happy if it works out.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Green said:


> @Deadlawn, of course. But Creeping Red is sometimes a "less fine" blade than the other FFs. And the more rhizomatous the FF species, the less dense it tends to be, on average. Chewings is also a type of red fescue, but has almost no rhizomes, so it's denser due relying almost fully on basal tillering, with tiller plants right near each other. Slender Creeping Red is intermediate, and Strong Creeping Red tends to be the least dense of the 3 due to its longer rhizomes and less basal tillering. Hard Fescue is the odd one out...it's the most bunchy and has no rhizomes at all and just tillers to spread, but is less aggressive at tillering than the other 3 as it's in a separate species complex. But still very useful. I consider it "the tall fescue of fine fescues" because of its heat tolerance and dark green color.


Interesting. I had a red fescue stand (I think) under dense shade when I lived in NJ. It did have a sort of mat appearance which wasn't the nicest aesthetically. But it was very dense and therefore no weeds could penetrate it. It also required very little mowing.


----------



## schmendog (Jul 26, 2021)

I have very dense shade in back and growing TTF now for the past 2 years. Battling disease has been my main problem, I've had to renovate due to Pythium but I believe its mostly because I was overwatering and had BAD drainage in back. I've since renovated, re-graded the yard with a sump drain in the center. Between doing that and re-doing my irrigation plan for the year, as well as nailing down a really good fungicide plan, I'm feeling confident I wont have to renovate again this fall. The pic with the sun spots is the most sun I get all day, which is 2 pm in July.


----------



## schmendog (Jul 26, 2021)

I'm also currently growing Mazama KBG (very shade tolerant) in the front yard, which is a lot of dense shade as well, I'm excited to see how that does this year, a little too early to tell now as it was a VERY late fall renovation.


----------



## briansemerick (Apr 11, 2021)

not 100% full shade by only gets sun about 3 hours a day. Mazama KBG loves it.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Deadlawn said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > @Deadlawn, of course. But Creeping Red is sometimes a "less fine" blade than the other FFs. And the more rhizomatous the FF species, the less dense it tends to be, on average. Chewings is also a type of red fescue, but has almost no rhizomes, so it's denser due relying almost fully on basal tillering, with tiller plants right near each other. Slender Creeping Red is intermediate, and Strong Creeping Red tends to be the least dense of the 3 due to its longer rhizomes and less basal tillering. Hard Fescue is the odd one out...it's the most bunchy and has no rhizomes at all and just tillers to spread, but is less aggressive at tillering than the other 3 as it's in a separate species complex. But still very useful. I consider it "the tall fescue of fine fescues" because of its heat tolerance and dark green color.
> ...


Yeah, it can definitely be dense, too.


----------



## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

I live in an older neighborhood in a city that loves tall oak trees. Neighborhood is 50 years old. I have 3 mature trees (50'+) in my backyard and 6 in my front yard. So I have at best, filtered sun partially in the day. I anticipate each area maybe gets direct sun for less than 4 hours a day.

In the North lawn (back yard), there are 1' strips near fencelines on the east and west sides that never get full sun. I struggle to keep grass alive there in the summer, oddly, but it is also where I have Nimblewill so I'm treating it heavier in the summer and as a result it also gets some Poa A there in the spring. Also struggle with what I think may be fungusin the late fall after overseeding since I think the shade prevents the grass from drying out--next fall going to pay more attention and back off watering in those spots a bit sooner. Could also just be lack of light late season and not fungus though I did see some lesions before it severely thinned out in November in those strips.

Otherwise, I've been successful keeping most of the main lawn up with fescue. It definitely wakes up slower than my neighbors due to the shade. And from 15-Oct through Xmas I'm blowing and bagging leaves literally every 2 days. Probably fill up 100 bags of leaves a season, though I bag mow the leaf piles before bagging to compress them down so reality is probably 30 bags like that.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@GrassDaddy, watched your recent video on the backyard seeding and germination results. Good luck with the shade! I think this time of year your new grass will be ok because there is more sun. Late Fall might be tough. But Fescue definitely roots better in shade/moist/compacted soil, so you definitely have a shot at it. Btw, I have to wear a mask 99% of the time when I mow and have forever--since I started mowing around 10 years ago (and recently, adding safety glasses has made an additional huge difference in my allergy symptoms when mowing, though it can be hard to keep them from fogging up). I just use a simple disposable dust mask. I also wear a premium disposable respirator level mask (N95 or P95) when spraying now, to avoid breathing in herbicides.

Also looking forward to any experiments with the shade tolerant KBG you mentioned in the comments. And hey, if worse comes to worse, you can always overseed the back down the road someday with fine fescue (even more shade tolerant) if you end up not having enough sun for a thick lawn that's up to your specs with the Tall Fescue. I've been told that the best TTTFs for shade are Rowdy and Valkyrie (which you have in your seed). I've used Rowdy with good results so far, but we'll see if it can hold up for years in shade without thining out.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

schmendog said:


> I have very dense shade in back and growing TTF now for the past 2 years. Battling disease has been my main problem, I've had to renovate due to Pythium but I believe its mostly because I was overwatering and had BAD drainage in back. I've since renovated, re-graded the yard with a sump drain in the center. Between doing that and re-doing my irrigation plan for the year, as well as nailing down a really good fungicide plan, I'm feeling confident I wont have to renovate again this fall. The pic with the sun spots is the most sun I get all day, which is 2 pm in July.


You give me hope!!


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Green said:


> @GrassDaddy, watched your recent video on the backyard seeding and germination results. Good luck with the shade! I think this time of year your new grass will be ok because there is more sun. Late Fall might be tough. But Fescue definitely roots better in shade/moist/compacted soil, so you definitely have a shot at it. Btw, I have to wear a mask 99% of the time when I mow and have forever--since I started mowing around 10 years ago (and recently, adding safety glasses has made an additional huge difference in my allergy symptoms when mowing, though it can be hard to keep them from fogging up). I just use a simple disposable dust mask. I also wear a premium disposable respirator level mask (N95 or P95) when spraying now, to avoid breathing in herbicides.
> 
> Also looking forward to any experiments with the shade tolerant KBG you mentioned in the comments. And hey, if worse comes to worse, you can always overseed the back down the road someday with fine fescue (even more shade tolerant) if you end up not having enough sun for a thick lawn that's up to your specs with the Tall Fescue. I've been told that the best TTTFs for shade are Rowdy and Valkyrie (which you have in your seed). I've used Rowdy with good results so far, but we'll see if it can hold up for years in shade without thining out.


Yeah I am hoping it's just taking a long time to grow taller. I only mowed 3 times last year. So not used to this.


----------



## MacLawn (Oct 26, 2021)

GrassDaddy said:


> Hey All
> 
> Soooo... Long story short.. We fell in love with a property in the woods. It gets practically no sun in the summer. I'm curious how many of you have had success in shade. I know I won't be able to do the KBG blend I used at the old house, so I'm trying to set my expectations lower. I really loved that lawn..  Please someone give me some hope, post some photos!!
> 
> Thanks


The best to do is look around the area at similar properties and see if there is something you like. Might help to get a light meter and see what tour actually getting for light energy down to the ground. My buddy moved into a place with mostly pines . He tried to grow grass. The only improvement was he hired professional tree care to come prune all the trees. They basically took all the ratty lower limbs off and thinned the canopy , took down a few dangerous trees. 
In the end he noticed a lot of small blueberry bushes growing all around the woods and slowly transplanted several. He then cleared the brush and disturbed the soil some. He now has all sorts of stuff coming up naturally and just mows it when it starts to look ragged.
He does put down several different types of rye grasses, including annual winter rye.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

Yeah right now I'm ok with anything green &#129315; when it rains it's mud fest lolol


----------



## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

Once the leaves fill in on the maple trees, this area is under very dense shade. I overseeded with the SS1002 blend of GTO, Valarie LS and 4th Millenium. Aside from battling the trees sucking up the water, it does pretty decent.


----------



## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Part of my lawn is full shade. There is a few things you can do that will allow you to have a nice lawn.

1. Thin the trees out or cut back any low hanging branches, especially on the south side, this will allow some extra sun light in.

2. Mulch around the base of trees where the shade and exposed roots are the worst.

3. Use tall fescue instead of KBG and Rye. Tall Fescue will do well in the light to moderate shade. Don't bother with fine fescue unless it's a low maintenance are. Fine fescue doesn't do much better than tall fescue in the shade and sacrifices turf quality.


----------



## Lust4Lawn (Aug 4, 2020)

Those trees are only going to get bigger and cost more to remove. I took out a few trees in my backyard the cut the canopy back to get more sun before my backyard reno. I planted a Mazama mono and it handles the shady spots very well but it's not full shade.


----------



## creediddy2021 (Mar 27, 2021)

@Powhatan…Heavy insects and large wildlife in your backyard are big topics of conversation…it looks very similar to living in forest preserve and with tons of trees for seclusion…


----------

