# comparing iron



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Just curious. Been considering the FAS for a while now. I am fully on board with PGR, the stuff is amazing and I tell everyone about it. But they just think I am crazy, so their loss.

There has been various discussions about chelated iron and its non-staining characteristics, so I wanted to do a quick run down of 3 products. I know there are way more, so if you want add them to the list. I went 3 because it was easy.

FAS
N-ext Greene
Souther ag Chelated

I am really only concerned about following:

1. cost
2. effectiveness, is one better than the other
3. benefits, one over the other
4. iron app rate, what are the rates, is one putting more than another?
5. ease of use

My plan is apply with PGR, so half rate according to some posts in the FAS thread (I assume this would apply to all iron applications) and only to my from 6k lawn as this is where I have irrigation I can use to rinse in the morning after an evening app.

My thought is a quick hit of information, I do not want to get too crazy, just want to know if it is worth leaning one way or another with this stuff. My assumption is the self mixed FAS goes the farthest., but at the same time is the most effort and least forgiving, so if it means a few extra dollars for some ease of use, then the more expensive product may technically be cheaper when it comes to time and function.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I don't use PGR yet but for iron, I have been using the southern ag. I use 4oz/M with .25oz NIS and 2.5oz AMS. This gives a great green up on my TTTF. I have missed and sprayed a little on the sidewalk but I haven't seen any staining. For a 6K lawn, that would be 5 apps per gallon of iron. At half rate, maybe it would be worth considering a gal for 10 apps. Granted that would cost $25 at the site below. Not sure if you found a cheaper place.

https://www.pestrong.com/111-chelated-5-liquid-iron-fertilizer-gallon.html

FAS would be by far the cheapest but it isn't chelated. Check out kelp4less if you want a good price on 30lbs of it. I'm not sure if you would bother, but you could use citric acid to chelate it. Citric acid is also pretty cheap. At $38 for 30lbs, and a use rate of half the regular FAS at 2oz, you would have 40 apps.

https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/

The GCF products are probably great but aren't the cheapest. If you choose their Greene Effect, it has 7% N so keep that in mind. Maybe not a great thing if you don't want to push growth in the summer. Their Microgreene may be a better option if you don't want the N. It has half the iron but it does have other micros. If you want the N, the Greene Effect would probably be the easiest since you could just add NIS and that's it.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

I've been trying a premixed product (Ferromec AC) but will be going back to the traditional FAS mix for my next spray. It is more cost effective for me. If foliar spraying, regular ferrous sulfate should be as effective. Also, here is an article recently posted from UNL comparing a few different iron sources. Ferrous sulfate is 20% iron, so 4oz/M of ferrous sulfate would be .8oz/M of iron.

https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/6-7-Iron-Chelates.pdf


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think they need to do better testing. Their DOE factors dont look correct to me. For example:

- Fe rate with and without Nitrogen. I really wished they would have done the traditional FAS + AS.
- There is a difference in color for samples 3 and 4. Both had the same rate of Fe (0.40) and the only variable was the chelate. The DTPA looks better to me. I cant agree with conclusion #3.
- They only tested the EDDHA at 0.12 Fe rate, They should have tested them all using two rates and the same rate for all too. You cant really compare the chelated vs. FAS without it.
- I would also be interested in the factor of how long after foliar the plots get irrigation. I think it is an important factor.
- They also did not include the amount of chelated they applied to the soil. From what I've read for soil applications, you need to apply in the cups/M since the % of iron is lower.
- Since Fe root absorption is pH dependent, what was the pH of the soil? Will the study yield the same results in an acidic soil?

I agree that foliar will be better than soil applications, since it is being directly absorb by the leafs directly into the plant. I also think that the chelated have an advantage that after being applied foliar and watered (12hr later?) the iron will not go to waste into a high pH soil. Of course as Pete pointed out, the cost of FAS vs chelated makes this a no brainier to use FAS.

I know I'm being critical of the article and in their defense, it seems like the study was not planned for foliar applications. I need to find the actual study report to read in more detail than just this summary. Hopefully these findings will yield a follow up study.

PS there is an error in the last page. It talks about the red boxes but it means the blue ones.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

@g-man, I agree, I would like to see more studies and the article is alittle lacking. One part that caught my eye in there was,


> The EDDHA is much more expensive but is by far a superior iron chelate when soil pH is above 7.0 (others usually drop iron and grab calcium at high soil pH)


 What I took from the article is for foliar that ferrous sulfate can be just as effective. As far as chelates, once watered in (unless EDDHA) the iron might not be effective in my high PH soil.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@g-man Do you find it to be beneficial to water the next day to wash off your FAS? I just leave it on until the next rain which could be a week. Haven't had a problem. I assume after a certain amount of time, the plant won't absorb anymore or there isn't enough left to absorb assuming it wasn't over applied.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Do you find it to be beneficial to water the next day to wash off your FAS? I just leave it on until the next rain which could be a week. Haven't had a problem. I assume after a certain amount of time, the plant won't absorb anymore or there isn't enough left to absorb assuming it wasn't over applied.


I havent tried it since I dont like to keep the AS in the leafs. Maybe I should try it without the AS (or lower rate).

@Pete1313
We both have high pH (I'm at 8.1) and the chelated irons wont help us much or at all unless it is the EDDHA for soil. We benefit more from the foliar. I ordered 1lb of EDDHA last week and I'm waiting for shipment. I want to use it in the trees/shrubs that I cant spray too easy and will try it in the lawn too.

With the lack of rain and high heat, I had to irrigate often. I think I applied ~4in of city water last month. My water is very hard (25 grains) which means more calcium. I'm seeing the chlorosis effects in the evergreens and trees.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> I don't use PGR yet but for iron, I have been using the southern ag. I use 4oz/M with .25oz NIS and 2.5oz AMS. This gives a great green up on my TTTF. I have missed and sprayed a little on the sidewalk but I haven't seen any staining. For a 6K lawn, that would be 5 apps per gallon of iron. At half rate, maybe it would be worth considering a gal for 10 apps. Granted that would cost $25 at the site below. Not sure if you found a cheaper place.
> 
> https://www.pestrong.com/111-chelated-5-liquid-iron-fertilizer-gallon.html
> 
> ...


Are you suggesting this: https://www.kelp4less.com/shop/iron-sulfate-soluble-ferrous-sulfate/ is the same as buying and mixing the 2 products from the FAS thread?

Or, are most of these products just iron sulfate and the added ammonium sulfate is optional for "The Ammonium Sulfate is in the solution to help give it a faster and more intense green up and CAN be omitted if you choose"

In which case it adds the secondary opinion question of what people think, is it necessary? @Mightyquinn states he has never applied without it, so I am just curious. I seek a darker green for better domination. The reason I mentioned the 6k is because that is where I have irrigation to wash things off in the AM after an evening application.

Is there a calculation for the citric acid to be added and a product known good to use, because if that is all it takes to not stain the driveway and sidewalk, I am game.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I think the idea behind adding N to the mix is to help accelerate and increase uptake of the iron. Since the plant will absorb N through the leaf, while that happens, it can also take in the iron. Is it necessary? Probably not but if it can help to increase uptake of iron, then why not? Sure, you can just use a higher rate of iron but N is much cheaper so if that increases the effect with a lower rate of iron, that's a win to me.

All the iron products are just iron in some form with many being chelated for easier plant uptake and less chance of binding with other minerals. The kelp4less iron is ferrous sulfate. So, use that or any iron and add N. Preferably AMS, not urea since urea needs to have urease in order to convert to a usable N source whereas AMS doesn't.

As for how much citric acid? I'm going to try 0.16oz/M. I have about a 7ph for my water. Do consider that also. I have yet to test the ph with this amount to see what it comes out to. I know 4-5 ph is common for many herbicides so maybe this range would be a good starting point. Acidic substances also help to penetrate leaf tissue. So, this combined with NIS can really boost uptake.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

And we want pH higher or lower? And adding acid takes the number down or up?

I am venturing to a place I feel I have no business.

What's the better bet, the strips or the meter?

As for nitrogen, does the kelp4less stuff have none and is where the TLF FAS comes into play with it. And the N is so low as noted that summer stress is not a concern.

Can one chelate the FAS version as well?

So many questions as this is far past pgr and milorganite level stuff


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Ph works on a scale of 1 to 14. 7 is neutral. Pure water is 7. Below 7 is an acid and above 7 is a base. Acids like vinegar, citric acid (in lemons and oranges), and stomach juices are all under 7. The lower the number, the stronger the acid. A base is a ph above 7 like soaps or bitter foods. Mild soap like hand soap is a little above 7 but lye (strong cleaner) is much higher.

In regards to grass, most herbicides are stable around a ph of 5. Not all of course. So, when you add water to your herbicide or iron or whatever you are spraying, the ph can be altered. It depends on the ph of the water from your tap. A ph of 7 is pure water but water has minerals and tap water also has chlorine so the ph may not be 7. If you add an acid, you can lower the ph to increase the penetrating power to get through waxy leaf coatings found on plants. Citric acid is also a chelator allowing iron to be easier to be taken in by the plant especially the roots. Granted, this only works in specific ph of your soil. So, we do a soil test and find out what the soil ph is. There are many other more effective chelators but they may not be acidic.

The idea to use a chelated iron is to improve the chance of uptake in the soil. If you apply foliarly, the idea behind FAS, then the iron will be taken in by the leaf and whatever iron is left gets washed down to the soil. The iron in the soil may stay there for a long time and not be plant available. So, a foliar application of iron can bypass the troubles which involve root uptake of iron. If you use a chelated iron, then any left over iron that washes into the soil can be taken in by the roots. Do you have to use a chelated iron? No. You are just trying to increase the chance of iron being taken in by the plant through both the leaf and the roots.

Look at the ph on the bottom of the pic. You can see that iron chelated with citrates, citric acid, are stable to a little over 7. If you have a soil with a higher ph than 8, you should consider using DPTA or EDDHA.

More info on chelators: http://sdhydroponics.com/2011/12/27/what-is-chelation/

FAS is 2 ingredients. Ferrous sulfate and ammonium sulfate. F for the Fe (iron) and that is the ferrous sulfate. AS for AMS, ammonium sulfate, a 21-0-0 fertilizer. So Fe+AMS =FAS.

The kelp4less iron is the Fe part. You still don't have the AMS, the N fertilizer part.

The N is a very tiny amount so it doesn't act like a fertilizer application. Normally you would use pounds of AMS to fertilize the lawn but in FAS, you are using a fraction of a pound over the same area.

If you want to use a chelated iron, then it is one more ingredient you add to the mix. You could also buy an off the shelf chelated iron like the southern ag liquid iron or GCF branded iron products. They are chelated already so if you use their iron and add AMS, you have a chelated FAS. This will increase the chance of uptake through the roots in addition to just the leaf.

One last thing to consider when spraying FAS is the amount of carrier you use. So, if you spray at low volume, 0.25 gal/M then you need a fine mist but all the spray stays on the leaves. If you spray at 2 gal/M, there is so much water that some of that iron in the spray will run down the leaf and into the soil. At this point, you have done a mix of a foliar app and a soil app. The soil part could benefit from being chelated. If you have a higher soil ph or other nutrient problems in the soil like high Cd, then the iron in the soil may not be plant available. This is when a chelated iron can be useful.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

^ +1


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

@Suburban Jungle Life holy smokes. This amount of information you just came with is amazing. I get most of it, so that is attributed to your amazing ability to write in a technical, but not over the top way.

If I was to mention why I started to think about chelated, then maybe it simplifies things. I read that chelated iron is non-staining. I want to try FAS or just Fe or both, but eliminate the worry of spraying onto the drive and making a mess of things.

That is the whole reason I started the path of chelated and or any other similar product. because, while I love playing and testing things in the lawn, I also don't want to make a mess of the concrete every time. Right now, with PGR, tenacity, etc, I am in a decent place. It seems to be working mostly. My only thought was the darker green of iron, till I read about the staining, then I stopped. Then I saw chelated is non-staining and I started to think about it again.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

@kolbasz Sorry about the long winded post...
I'm not sure about staining and chelated iron. I guess it's possible but I've only sprayed using a chelated iron and I don't have staining so I'm not sure if that's why. You could try to clean up the stains a couple times a year with a pressure washer or industrial cleaner or toilet bowl cleaner. I love the color boost so I'll keep spraying iron regardless of staining. I do try to be very careful around the edges though so there is a minimal amount on hard surfaces.


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

I guess Maybe too I am over thinking it. I don't even know what the staining it, I'm just assuming it is some dark stain that makes the driveway look bad, when in reality it might just be some discoloration.

However, to be safe, the smart route tells me get the chelated iron and the AMS and call it a day.


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## Greenrebellion (Jun 13, 2018)

I've always wanted to try FAS but the staining the driveway thing scares me.

Chelates don't stain, ferrous sulfate does...I believe. But the ATY article says chelates don't work if you have a soil PH above 7.2. So how do those of you that apply ferrous sulfate deal with driveways/sidewalks?


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## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Greenrebellion said:


> I've always wanted to try FAS but the staining the driveway thing scares me.
> 
> Chelates don't stain, ferrous sulfate does...I believe. But the ATY article says chelates don't work if you have a soil PH above 7.2. So how do those of you that apply ferrous sulfate deal with driveways/sidewalks?


But if foliar, my understanding is the soil pH doesn't matter. But I could be mistaken


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## Ral1121 (Mar 19, 2018)

Greenrebellion said:


> I've always wanted to try FAS but the staining the driveway thing scares me.
> 
> Chelates don't stain, ferrous sulfate does...I believe. But the ATY article says chelates don't work if you have a soil PH above 7.2. So how do those of you that apply ferrous sulfate deal with driveways/sidewalks?


There is a specific type of chelate for soils above 7.2. It is an eddha chelate.


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## HomerGuy (Jun 5, 2017)

I've been debating between the FAS powder mix-it-yourself route or buying a liquid product. I'm waiting on my soil test results, but I anticipate the soil PH is going to come back high, which is the only reason I am considering a chelated liquid product.

How do you compare the amount of iron in the powder vs the liquid. Many of the liquids say they contain 5-6% iron. Is that by volume or weight? Either way, it seems like the liquid iron products contain significantly less iron than FAS?


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

HomerGuy said:


> I've been debating between the FAS powder mix-it-yourself route or buying a liquid product. I'm waiting on my soil test results, but I anticipate the soil PH is going to come back high, which is the only reason I am considering a chelated liquid product.
> 
> How do you compare the amount of iron in the powder vs the liquid. Many of the liquids say they contain 5-6% iron. Is that by volume or weight? Either way, it seems like the liquid iron products contain significantly less iron than FAS?


It seems a general guideline is between 0.4 to 0.8 oz. by weight of "iron" per 1,000.

FAS is generally 20% iron by weight. So a rate would be somewhere between 2 to 4 oz by weight per 1,000.

For the liquids, a rough conversion (depends on density of the liquid) would be the water equivalent which is slighly more than an oz by weight for each liquid oz. So in rough numbers, a liquid product with 6% iron should go out at a rate somewhere between around 7 to around 13 liquid oz per 1,000. As liquids are measured by volume, the percentage of iron reported should be by volume. But, read the label for the "correct" rate :nod: .


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## Greenrebellion (Jun 13, 2018)

Still not sure how folks keep this stuff off the driveway. Do you just avoid spraying the edges? Wouldn't that make for a weird different colored stripe. Hold cardboard while spraying? Wash it off right after spraying (I assume it dries pretty quick and then your stuck).


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Look at this video from Ware. He just goes for it and doesnt mind spraying the concrete.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=211&start=100#p60340
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=2WOHhKSPL8Y

and Lawntips has another video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L0FDw8aBHI

Use the proper nozzle and pressure and you can get really close. If you screw up, just clean it right away.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Spray all the concrete to match? :banana:


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## Greenrebellion (Jun 13, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> Spray all the concrete to match? :banana:


That would work!


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

Greenrebellion said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> > Spray all the concrete to match? :banana:
> ...


Orange concrete makes the lawn look "greener". :lol:


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

g-man said:


> ...Use the proper nozzle and pressure and you can get really close. If you screw up, just clean it right away.


+1, I just try to minimize overspray on the concrete.

Honestly, I would say I've had worse luck with blue marker dye when it comes to staining.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Which is why I use AI tips for applying Iron. They provide excellent drift control.


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