# North Alabama Soil Tests



## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

So I noticed we have a strong group from North Alabama. I was curious who has had a soil test, what results are you seeing, who did you use for your test? I would love to hear your results, and what steps you took based on your test? If you know of anyone else on here we need to include please add them. Looking forward to the discussion. 
@WarEagle26 
@Movingshrub
@raldridge2315
@gatormac2112 
@Stro3579
@bretben55
@kur1j
@ajmikola 
@csbutler 
@Gboyet93
@jaxesn 
@Brackin4au
@walk1355 
@outlawswine 
@HungrySoutherner


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I used waypoint and have a thread posting my results.


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## kur1j (Jul 2, 2017)

Going to be making an adjustment with some P and K (0-0-50). Waypoint for me.


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## Brackin4au (Jun 13, 2018)

I haven't done one yet. Plan too soon though


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@kur1j So looks like your results came back with a big K deficiency if I'm reading (0-0-50) as you need a lot of K? Is that correct?
@Movingshrub I'll look for your soil test thread, thanks


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## jaxesn (May 24, 2018)

I have not done one, tho I would like to. At this point should we just wait until Fall/Early winter, or is worth it to do it ASAP?


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@Movingshrub so I had read your soil test post in the past, great post and info from @Ridgerunner and @Greendoc Based on what I read it looks like you were recommended to add K just like @kur1j if I'm understanding his post above ^. So this leads to the question is K a normal recommendation for our N. Alabama red clay. I was curious about @Ridgerunner's comment/recommendation about not adding Mn, based on your soil test results. I have read that Mn levels can be high in our clay soils. I had been researching Calcium Nitrate and Urea based on the neutral impact to PH or with Calcium Nitrate possibly even raising PH a little. From reading Ridgerunner's soil test thread https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1088 it seems if we put down a lot of N we are using up a lot of K, so that would need to be replaced. I just bought Feature Micronutrients 6-0-0 and I'm wondering now if I should put it down because of the 2.5% Mn and only 1% Mg. I have not done a soil test yet but planning to pull 8 plugs for samples for both the front and back yard.


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## HungrySoutherner (May 29, 2018)

I plan to do one soon to see what all my crazy fert and additive experiments have been doing to the soil. I'll report when I get the results in


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

In heavy clay, the Mn does not become an issue as far as excess or toxicity until the pH is less than 6.0. I have a lot of soils that read high in everything, but it does not matter because in a heavy clay soil with a pH over 7.4 none of that is very available to the plants. I look at soil tests with the understanding that what is being analyzed in the lab is an extract from your soil sample made with acids and chelating agents or else solutions more alkaline that what naturally occurs in soil.

I would still use the FEature 6-0-0, but you would be an example of an instance where 1 oz per 1000 sq ft is all you need. I need 2-4 oz per 1000 sq ft because of how nothing is plant available in my soils. How did you add your Calcium and Magnesium? If I wanted to add just Calcium and Magnesium without altering pH, that would get done with Gypsum and Epsom salt. Because of your heavy clay, I recommend adding your K as Potassium Sulfate. People with sandier soil can almost do what they want to. In clay soils, the clay holds onto everything, including high Chlorides. I speak from experience.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@HungrySoutherner great, I look forward to your results. I'd like to get to the point of understanding what the soil needs, what impacts certain products have to PH and the like. I am slowly getting there. I don't want to just buy whatever euphoric product of the season is being hocked on YouTube.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@Greendoc It is my understanding that our North Alabama Red clay soil is on the slightly acidic side. It is very common here to add 50lbs lime per 1K per season. I'm not saying everyone's soil here is the same but I have never seen a sight where they are building and the dirt isn't red clay. and I mean sticky non draining slightly acidic clay. I have not done a soil test yet, but everyone I have talked to seems to have similar issues. It seems many Turf professionals in a region kind of get to a point where they know what their type of soil needs at least from PH and NPK, and maybe a few common deficient micro's. I initially thought N was N, but now I know I probably wouldn't want to put out Ammonium Sulphate season after season with soil that leans toward the acidic side as an example, instead I would use Calcium Nitrate or Urea. I'm learning, slowly, but it's starting to make sense. A lot of people were raving about Green TRX fertilizer and as someone who is a novice, I was thinking of putting that down, but then I saw the high Sulphur content and thought maybe it's not the best idea for the soil where I live. I used Milo last season with great results, and have used it this season too along with a heavy spring feeding of 19-19-19, but now I'm wondering about Milo for next season because of the P content and lack of K. Here it seems we need N and K and not much P, we probably have to much Mn and could be low on Mg. This is just thinking about our region and its dominate soil type. I know nothing beats a test of your own soil but there are things that tend to be common in our soil type, like low PH.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

dtillman5 said:


> @Movingshrub so I had read your soil test post in the past, great post and info from @Ridgerunner and @Greendoc Based on what I read it looks like you were recommended to add K just like @kur1j if I'm understanding his post above ^. So this leads to the question is K a normal recommendation for our N. Alabama red clay. I was curious about @Ridgerunner's comment/recommendation about not adding Mn, based on your soil test results. I have read that Mn levels can be high in our clay soils. I had been researching Calcium Nitrate and Urea based on the neutral impact to PH or with Calcium Nitrate possibly even raising PH a little. From reading Ridgerunner's soil test thread https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=1088 it seems if we put down a lot of N we are using up a lot of K, so that would need to be replaced. I just bought Feature Micronutrients 6-0-0 and I'm wondering now if I should put it down because of the 2.5% Mn and only 1% Mg. I have not done a soil test yet but planning to pull 8 plugs for samples for both the front and back yard.


The K recommendation was based on consumption of K by the turfgrass. Growth is driven by Nitrogen. Amount of growth determines amount of other elements consumed. If you know how much N is being applied, you can approximate how much of the other elements are going to be consumed. If you're going to consume more of any of those elements than is in the soil, an application to supplement that element is required. Based on my soil test, the amount of N I expect to apply and my current K level, indicates that I'll need to apply additional K. In theory, if I was applying less N, I would need to apply less or no K.

I'm all onboard the MLSN approach noted by Ridgerunner in his thead. Not intending to steal his wording but it just makes sense to me.



Ridgerunner said:


> During my research, I kept coming across a turf grass fertilization method called the Minimum Level of Sustainable Nutrients (MLSN). Minimum? Sustainable? No thanks and I blew it off. A couple of years ago, I revisited the MLSN method (http://files.asianturfgrass.com/mlsn_cheat_sheet_us.pdf) and some tweaks suggested by a number of other specialists (like https://turf.unl.edu/NebGuides/g2265.pdf and more recently http://www.turfhacker.com/2018/03/mlsn-math-step-by-step.html) in depth.
> 
> Conclusion: In my opinion, this is the Holy Grail. It's simple and logical. It just makes sense.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

dtillman5 said:


> @Greendoc It is my understanding that our North Alabama Red clay soil is on the slightly acidic side. It is very common here to add 50lbs lime per 1K per season. I'm not saying everyone's soil here is the same but I have never seen a sight where they are building and the dirt isn't red clay. and I mean sticky non draining slightly acidic clay. I have not done a soil test yet, but everyone I have talked to seems to have similar issues. It seems many Turf professionals in a region kind of get to a point where they know what their type of soil needs at least from PH and NPK, and maybe a few common deficient micro's. I initially thought N was N, but now I know I probably wouldn't want to put out Ammonium Sulphate season after season with soil that leans toward the acidic side as an example, instead I would use Calcium Nitrate or Urea. I'm learning, slowly, but it's starting to make sense. A lot of people were raving about Green TRX fertilizer and as someone who is a novice, I was thinking of putting that down, but then I saw the high Sulphur content and thought maybe it's not the best idea for the soil where I live. I used Milo last season with great results, and have used it this season too along with a heavy spring feeding of 19-19-19, but now I'm wondering about Milo for next season because of the P content and lack of K. Here it seems we need N and K and not much P, we probably have to much Mn and could be low on Mg. This is just thinking about our region and its dominate soil type. I know nothing beats a test of your own soil but there are things that tend to be common in our soil type, like low PH.


You are so correct on the pros getting to know their soil. I have several different types to keep track of depending on where I am on the island and then some wildcards. What I apply reflects the needs of a type of soil and the grass being grown on it.

Grass does not use a lot of Phosphorus, but if it needs it needs it. I know if it needs it based on prior maintenance and mowing practices. There are some instances where I will feed a lawn Nitrogen from a soil appropriate source and Potassium from Potassium Nitrate. Why Potassium Nitrate? Because it is compatible with Calcium Nitrate if that is what the N needs to be. For a low Ca and low Mg soil that needs liming, Dolomite lime with its elevated Mg content is a good option. I seldom have to lime, normally I am working to get pH below 7.5.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

Yes I read his thread too, MLSN makes sense to me as well. For every pound of N applied we use up .5 pound of K from the soil if none was applied, if I'm understanding correctly. I'm trying to narrow in on the right type of fert for our soil conditions. Something that is at least neutral on PH (Urea), or possibly raises PH (Calcium Nitrate) and then hitting in the fall with Lime. I like the idea of bio-solids and raising OM, not sure what they do to PH, I'd imagine its negligible with the way they are released but I'm just not sure. Green TRX looked like a winner to me until I saw how much Sulphur was in it. If it didn't have all that Sulphur the profile looks pretty good IMO for our soil.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@Greendoc Thank you for all the great info. Dolomite lime it is then. I miss the shrimp trucks on the North Shore, what was that place... Ted's Bakery or something like that, not a truck, more of an old gas station, but great shrimp, mac salad, and rice


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Ted's is still around. But I avoid the north side of the island. Not my scene. Too much Meth, booze, weed, and people who do not have to work for a living.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@Greendoc Well I was in Waikiki working in Pearl Harbor, just remember going out there and having some amazing shrimp


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

How long ago? 15 years ago the North Shore was a very different place.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> A lot of people were raving about Green TRX fertilizer and as someone who is a novice, I was thinking of putting that down, but then I saw the high Sulphur content and thought maybe it's not the best idea for the soil where I live.


In 99.9% of the cases, it's not what you think.
Let's look at a bag of Ammonium Sulfate fertilizer:
The guaranteed analysis on the bag will state that it contains 21% N (Nitrogen) and 24% S (Sulfur).
Ammonium Sulfate = (2(NH4))SO4
That's 2 Nitrogen atoms (each atom with an atomic weight of 14), 8 Hydrogen atoms (each atom with an atomic weight of 1), 1 Sulfur atom (with an atomic weight of 32) and 4 Oxygen atoms (each with an atomic weight of 16). The total atomic weight of an ammonium sulfate molecule is 132. Of that total weight, 28 is Nitrogen, or 21% by weight (28/132 = .21) and 32 is Sulfur, or 24% by weight (32/132 = .24).
Ammonium Sulfate is a salt, and when it solubilizes in water it breaks into two NH4 molecules and one SO4 molecule.
SO4 is a plant nutrient source for S, but SO4 does not have an acidifying effect on the soil.
On the other hand, NH4 is also a plant nutrient as it is one of the two forms (ignoring outliers like Urea) of Nitrogen that a plant can take up and use. Some of the NH4 will be taken up by the plant, but most of the NH4 will be converted by soil life into NO3 (the other N form that plants can take up and use). The conversion of NH4 to NO3, releases H+ (hydrogen) atoms. Adding hydrogen will and does lower soil pH, but once again, because the sulfur is tied up in SO4 and remains so and SO4 has no acidifying effect.
Although the bag states that it contains 24% sulfur, it's in the sulfate form and does not acidify.
Ditto with soil test reports that state the soil has X ppm of S, unless elemental sulfur was recently applied, pennies to dollars, all that reported soil sulfur content is in the form of SO4 and NOT elemental sulfur.
Let's skip the discussion about whether the reported nutrient levels on a soil test report reflect plant available nutrients or the often misconceived total amount in the soil, some of which erroneously may not be considered available.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Sulfur as sulfates do not affect soil pH. That is the reason why I am not alarmed by high sulfate readings. I get soil tests where pH is 7.5 and the sulfates are high.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Don't get too tied up with the 1#N/M to 0.1-0.2#P/M to [email protected]/M ratio. Although there is anecdotal evidence that it's fairly accurate, it's just a ballpark starting recommendation. The true proof in determining accurate amounts and ratios will be in the values of next years test results. Once you can hold levels relatively constant from year to year, you've determined YOUR soil/turf optimal maintenance fertilizer rates. That's the real heart/significance of the method.


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## jimbeckel (May 27, 2018)

I had my soil tested about a month ago, it cam back pretty good. The soil PH was just slightly acidic and they didn't recommend putting anything down in the yard. I can forward a copy of my soil test results from Auburn if anyone wants a comparison, I'm located in Huntsville


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## jimbeckel (May 27, 2018)




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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

I have used Soil Savvy for the past two years, but intend to change to Waypoint in the future. In the fall of 2016, my pH was reported as 6.21 and in the fall of 2017, 6.09. Note that I know Soil Savvy pH test results are known to be about 0.5 lower than most other testing labs. So it appears that my soil is not that acidic. I did put down dolomitic lime in 2016 and since sodium was reported high in both years, I applied gypsom last fall. Over the years, I have applied lime numerous times. Phosphorus was reported excessively high in both years. Last year I used Milo exclusively. I am not using it currently (cost and availability). Potassium is reported moderately low in both years and I have put down one pound of K this spring and I intend to apply another pound this early fall. I have not used any phosphorus since my last milo app last year. Magnesium is moderately low in both years. All of the other micros except copper are woefully low. Every two weeks, I have been applying FEature 6-0-0 and alternating to Miller Microplex. I apply one pound N every four weeks. I know some say that this is too much, but it's what works for me. I'm retired - meaning I don't have time for a job. My grass is green and I mow often and I collect the clippings. It's my job.

In terms of soil quality. this entire subdivision was at one time a dense woods. So there is a reasonable amount of natural topsoil but is is not sandy. It is definitely clay based. I have dug down and hit heavy red clay at about a foot down. When it's wet, it sticks to everything. When it's dry, it's like concrete. The house was built in 1991 and as well as I can remember, the current 419 way layed in 1997. Sand has been applied several times over the years. It needs it now, but at 72, I just don't think there is another episode of sand left in me. Drainage in the front yard has never been very good. We've had our share of heavy rains this year and water stands in the front, but goes down after an hour or so.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> How long ago? 15 years ago the North Shore was a very different place.


 it was 3 years ago and also 4 years ago. I've been there about 3 times in the last 4 years with my job


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@raldridge2315 interesting that you actually have some top soil above your clay. Makes sense if it was a forest before. If you want to do another round of sand let me know and I'll come do the shoveling and push broom and you can pull the drag mat or whatever works! I'm still interested in the low K reading that seems fairly common here.. or is it just bc turf people put down a lot more N and many bag their clippings? The grass is just using it up because of the extra N. Based on @Ridgerunner and @Greendoc comments maybe green TRX wouldn't be a bad idea if the sulphate isn't acidifying.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@jimbeckel interesting results.. particularly the high on Mg. Don't see that to often here. Is your soil mostly red clay?


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

They carry greenTrx locally at Ewing 16-1-2- 17S-3Fe, sulphur is in sulphate form. Comes in greens grade prill size too. http://www.anuviaplantnutrients.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Anuvia-GreenTRX-LAWN-Brochure-v4.pdf.. idk looks like it might be good. Still may have to put down some K in the fall and balanced 20-20-20 in the spring.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> Don't get too tied up with the 1#N/M to 0.1-0.2#P/M to [email protected]/M ratio. Although there is anecdotal evidence that it's fairly accurate, it's just a ballpark starting recommendation. The true proof in determining accurate amounts and ratios will be in the values of next years test results. Once you can hold levels relatively constant from year to year, you've determined YOUR soil/turf optimal maintenance fertilizer rates. That's the real heart/significance of the method.


 thank you @Ridgerunner great info as always


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

dtillman5 said:


> If you want to do another round of sand let me know and I'll come do the shoveling and push broom and you can pull the drag mat or whatever works!
> 
> @dtillman5 Thanks for the offer. I definitely won't do it anymore this year. Have you noticed that it's hot outside? I might take you up on that next spring. We'll see. My neighbor across the street has a lawn tractor and a dump trailer, so it's not like it's all wheel barrow work.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@raldridge2315 whatever you need, let me know, I'm happy to help.


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

jaxesn said:


> I have not done one, tho I would like to. At this point should we just wait until Fall/Early winter, or is worth it to do it ASAP?


 I think a fall test is fine. It's not like lots of people can't have a nice lawn feeding it nitrogen regularly. Long term, testing is definitely the right way to go so we are putting down what the soil and grass needs.


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## jimbeckel (May 27, 2018)

I've attached my soil test from Huntsville


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@jimbeckel that's a good PH, have you applied lime before? Thanks for posting your results


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## ajmikola (Feb 18, 2017)

Hey fellas, sorry I haven't responded, been stupid busy lately. I want to get my soil tested as well. I'm curious if we can generally use someone's who has already posted because we all live in the same area? I live in madison, my soil is garbage, my builder is a POS (thats a different story).


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## dtillman5 (Jul 20, 2017)

@ajmikola I had wondered the same, as knowledgeable turf professionals tend to know an area of the country they are working in. North Alabama lore has it that we have acidic soil and it's common to hear you need 30-50lbs lime per/K in the fall as an example. I can't say for sure that's true from the few soil samples listed so far. It may be true, as @raldridge2315 has put down lime several years so this may have corrected an acidic PH. @jimbeckel's PH came back only slightly acidic and they didn't recommend putting down anything, have not heard if he put down lime, or maybe a previous owner, don't know the situation. I did notice low K on three tests here, but it looks like that is mostly because of the amount of N that is being put down. Needing K makes sense because for every 1 pound of N put down the grass will use up .5 pounds of K, based on what I have read on TLF. From the small sample of different observations I would say putting down dolomitic lime in the fall wouldn't hurt, it takes a lot to move soil PH up. If you have been putting down say 1 lb of N/k like the Bermuda bible recommends and the fert you use didn't have any or very much K, it wouldn't hurt to put down some K in the fall either. The only way to really know for sure what is needed is to have the soil test done. I am planning to pull my samples the end July, First part of Aug.


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## jimbeckel (May 27, 2018)

dtillman5 said:


> @jimbeckel that's a good PH, have you applied lime before? Thanks for posting your results


I have not put any lime down, the yard is only four years old, I plan on getting rid of my fairway lawns treatments and going organic next year with green county organic ferts, milorganite, blindside and humic acid. I also plan to aerate and topdress in the spring


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