# Picking a HOC



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Been trying to decide the appropriate HOC for my lawn. I understand being able to go shorter, longer and even somewhere in between.

However, the item I struggle with is understanding what factors contribute to a healthy HOC. Be it the .38" @Ware was just mowing at or the 3.5" I typically cut at in the past.

I started the year at 2", then went to 1.5" and mowed there twice. My latest mow was back up at 2" and now I find myself struggling with the decision of where to go next.

In the front, I have 50/50 mix, but it has been a few years so maybe it is 30/70 as the Rye out competes the KBG. I also have and irrigation system in the front.

In the back, I have a mix of some 50/50 and some grasses from a sport blend I put down years ago. The back has no irrigation and is the main reason it hasnt been completely renovated. That and time.

The back gets sun in the later morning and has it pretty much all day till the sun goes over the house like 3,4,5 in the afternoon.

The front gets full sun from the time the sun dips over the hose late morning and till it is gone at night. The front is probably full sun and the back is lots of sun.

The last thing I want to do is stay at 2" and risk ruining the yard as it is starting to come in to form, but I also do not quite understand what the determining factors are for picking a HOC. The lower HOC did look awesome, but I do not know if it is right for me. At 3.5" it is definitely long and while it looks good on a fresh mow, it gets rough pretty quick.

At the end of the day I am just looking for some guidance as to what factors determine the right/good HOC for a given lawn. Why is it that @wardconnor can go to .5" all over and @GrassDaddy is going to cut his front yard high and the back low. I understand they are in completely different regions of the US, but still what is some of the reasoning.

why doesn't @GrassDaddy also cut the front short. Similar to Ryan Knorr, he is only cutting a section short and keeping the back long.

I am not looking for an excuse to go long or short, I am just trying to understand what options I may have and make a decision to what is right and will work and look awesome for my lawn. Maybe I go with the long front short back method or vice versa if it makes sense.


----------



## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> why doesn't @GrassDaddy also cut the front short.


His kids aren't quite old enough to lug sand and drag mats.

Give it another few years. :lol: :lol: :lol:


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

High to beat the summer heat. If you don't get high temps, you can cut lower. If you water, you can cut lower. If you get high temps, don't water, and cut low, the grass might not all make it through a hot summer...


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Picking a HOC is part a preference and how you want your lawn to look. The lower HOC needs more of an input and time commitment. The main drawback to cutting cool-season grasses shorter(with the exception to creeping bent) is the reduced root mass. You will need to water more frequently and they will be more susceptible to root/soil diseases such as summer patch. The shorter cut should fair better against foliar type diseases however as the canopy dries out quicker.

The longer cut with a larger root mass will go longer between watering and will handle heat and drought better. A downside to cutting longer is the leaf canopy will stay wet longer and increases the risk of foliar diseases.

In the end, it is a preference in how you want it to look, with more inputs needed as you go lower.


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> High to beat the summer heat. If you don't get high temps, you can cut lower. If you water, you can cut lower. If you get high temps, don't water, and cut low, the grass might not all make it through a hot summer...


So maybe that's another question. What is considered a safe high?

Is high 3.5?

What is low? Obviously, .5" is low, but is 2 and 2.5 low as well?

And also, what is hot. I see summers in the 80s, then occasionally hit the 90s for a stretch.


----------



## wardconnor (Mar 25, 2017)

I think you pick your HOC and go with it. I personally think that the lawn will survive at just about any height when it acclimates to that hoc. Below one half in for kbg is really not a good idea I would say.

I think it depends on what you as the homeowner wants. Pick your height and mow it accordingly to stay inside the 1/3 rule. If that is daily or weekly mowing then stay with it and do that. The grass will learn and be trained at whatever height you decide.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lower hoc actually reduces the water usage by the lawn since there is less leaf for photosynthesis, but it comes at the price of increase surface temperature of the soil that affects the roots and could cause higher evaporation.

These is an old study, but it has the surface temp at 1in for different hoc.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/stnew/article/1994dec2.pdf

At the end it comes to preference and the ability to mow frequently and water as needed. Having well water helps vs. city water.

Lastly, Ware Bermuda weed needs to be cut short to avoid it going crazy high. It is a warm season weed and it needs far less water.


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

g-man said:


> At the end it comes to preference and the ability to mow frequently and water as needed. Having well water helps vs. city water.


I think this is a key. If I need to water a lot more then it is not worth it with city water. My bill already sky rockets on the once a week plan. I wish I was like @Pete1313 and had endless free water. Just pay for the electric to pump it.

To go short and have a ultra high water bill is silly. City water is just stupid expensive.

Maybe I will try 2.5 in the front and 3.5 in the back. If it starts getting super hot or too stressed, nothing stops me from letting the front got to 3 or 3.5 I guess.

Although 2" is pretty awesome feeling and looking. 1.5 is even better, but the ground just isn't ready for it yet as it scalps in places.


----------



## glenmonte (Sep 15, 2017)

I have always gone high- 4 inches is normal. However, I try to limit my herbicide use and use mostly organic fertilizers, as well as not having the commitment to keeping it low.

I feel anything between 2 and 3.5 inches is probably close to a typical lawn care company cut and the results won't be stunning. Either go low and the whole 9 yards, or high (or do both on separate parts, like others).

Either way may mean a few (high) or a lot (low) more mowing sessions. But that's part of the fun.


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

so I started yesterday with the alternate cut heights.

Went 2" in the front and 2.5" in the back. I will adjust accordingly from there, going longer in the back where I cannot irrigate efficiently and shorter in the front. maybe 2.5 or 3 once it gets hotter. Guess we will see how it goes and if it matters in the end. For now, the 2" looks really freaking good.


----------



## GrassDaddy (Mar 21, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> why doesn't @GrassDaddy also cut the front short. Similar to Ryan Knorr, he is only cutting a section short and keeping the back long.


You have to water more than once a week if you cut that short, and during the hot summer months we have water restrictions. The front gets full sun, and the back gets some shade. On top of that, I could get away with hand watering or "accidentally" having the back watered more often but not the front. I got the cops called on me for having my car in the road when it was snowing so yeah not gonna bother ;-)


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

> However, the item I struggle with is understanding what factors contribute to a healthy HOC.


I like to go with what works. which will vary by individual preferences, turf, climate and maintenance routine (fertilizing and irrigation).
I cut my KBG short, 2", from as soon as I can make the first cut of the year in early Spring. I find this gets me improved fill-in and thickening. This also promotes air through the grass and hopefully reduced Spring disease. Short can look nice for a while too.
Usually my lawn is thickened up and the bare areas have filled in by the end of May and I start raising the height each mow starting Memorial Day, as I prefer the taller grass "waves of grain" look. (3.5ish and it varies. Sometimes it looks better at 3.25, sometimes 3.75 or 4--no clue why) Taller grass helps keep the soil cooler, retaining moisture with less irrigation. Also a drought stressed crown will pull moisture from the blades to survive, longer blades make for more available moisture.
Come mid-late October, I start cutting lower each successive mow until I'm back down to 2" by my last couple of cuts. This once again helps fill in from Summer heat damage (although no where as good as the Spring fill-in) and hopefully the shorter turf will help prevent the incidence of snow mold.


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

GrassDaddy said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> > why doesn't @GrassDaddy also cut the front short. Similar to Ryan Knorr, he is only cutting a section short and keeping the back long.
> ...


I could only imagine the cops showing up because you are watering the grass. So dumb.

Didn't consider the shorter grass needing more water more often, since I pay for city water, longer it is.


----------



## Rucraz2 (Apr 8, 2018)

Ridgerunner said:


> > However, the item I struggle with is understanding what factors contribute to a healthy HOC.
> 
> 
> I like to go with what works. which will vary by individual preferences, turf, climate and maintenance routine (fertilizing and irrigation).
> ...


I typically do this as well. But this being my first yr in my 1 acre lot, im not sure what I like yet. We didn't really get a spring this yr so I cut at 2.5 once and have had it at or above 3.5 since. But the taller I cut it the more I dislike it. Not sure if it's just the mower? But I can't keep up with it to cut lower and I feel I am constantly breaking the 1/3 rule. Time has not been on my side with all the rain and my chance to get out once a week basically. Everyone else on my street is cutting around 2 or so. It looks nice and a lot more even than mine. But mine is a lot darker and I am the only one on our well with irrigation. So should be interesting to see what this summer brings.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@kolbasz I'll echo everyone else on this thread. It's all a matter of personal preference. I keep mine at 3.25" on both the front and back. I also have the Checkmate Striping attachment which I find lays down better stripes with taller grass (more grass surface to lay down).

However, I do agree with your point that taller grass only looks good for a day or two. What you have to ask yourself is, how much time do you have/want to spend mowing. Personally, I love being in the lawn so I'm mowing every 3-4 days. It's my personal downtime away from the kids and let's me relax while listening to music.

Whatever you decide is the right choice. The best thing about grass is it will grow back and you can always try something different the next time!

Point is, don't overthink it and just get out and enjoy the mow (copyright Allyn Hane)!


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

i love getting out and mowing, I think what happens is you get caught up in the various threads regarding going shorter and shorter, etc and mis the what why how. I mean I love the look of it short, but not at the expense of crazy watering and ultra high watering bills. So, maybe the new plan has me starting and ending the year shorter, 2", and then in the middle during the heat at 3-3.5".

@Harts I do have my eyes set on a checkmate, but have been holding off as I have been having some minor mower troubles that has me considering an upgrade, maybe the 30" toro, but havent decided.


----------



## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You will love it. Very durable - I've had mine for 4 years.

This is last Thursday


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

kolbasz said:


> I mean I love the look of it short, but not at the expense of crazy watering and ultra high watering bills.


I don't think your watering bills will be higher. The quantity of water does not really change, it might just be the frequency. I'm working my way down to 80% ET and watering 2x a week. Example, with ET rates at .20" a day, ET would be 1.4" per week. 80% of that is 1.12". So I'm approximately watering .5-.6" 2x a week. Not too far off from the 1" a week guidline.


----------



## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> kolbasz said:
> 
> 
> > I mean I love the look of it short, but not at the expense of crazy watering and ultra high watering bills.
> ...


Taller grass actually transpires more than shorter grass, with the same soil texture I don't personally think theirs much of a difference and I've seen grass mown at .125" with 10" roots, so deep and infrequent works quite well in the cooler months as well


----------



## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Mow tall. It's un-American to mow low like some Brit with national fertilizer restrictions. This is America dammit and we thrower down and grow tall tall green grass with tons of chemicals. Because freedom. Red white and blue. F-250. And a whole bunch of other $hit


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Turfguy93 said:


> Taller grass actually transpires more than shorter grass, with the same soil texture I don't personally think theirs much of a difference and I've seen grass mown at .125" with 10" roots, so deep and infrequent works quite well in the cooler months as well.


@Turfguy93 where you are at do you have bluegrass/ryegrass fairways or bent? If the former, I would be curious the HOC and what you are seeing regarding root mass and depth.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Like Turfguy93 said, the shorter hoc actually needs less water. They way to think about it is that the leafs sweat the water from the roots. The amount of sweating is a function of surface area, so the longer the leaf, the more it could sweat.

Also, pgr does not really reduce the sweating, since the leaf is the same length.

Also, Et values are not constant. There is a study that shows that ET values increase after watering and drops 3-4 day later (becoming more lineal). So frequent watering increase the actual ET causing it to "need" more water.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Here is the article from northern Europe.

http://www.sterf.org/Media/Get/1816/water-use-of-various-furfgrass-species-on-greens-and-fairways


----------



## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

@Pete1313 where I'm at we are about 60% annual bluegrass fairways but over the past 2 years we have religously over seeding with prg. The HOC .875. The roots on the poa are only in the 3-4" range but the ryegrass is more in the 6-8" range. I wish we could renovate to bent fairways, we did a bent nursery 2 years ago that's mowed at .500. A month ago I pulled a plug out of there with roots sticking out of the bottom so it was a good 10-12" long. We literally never water it and it looks great lol


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

@Turfguy93 thanks for sharing!


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Mow tall. It's un-American to mow low like some Brit with national fertilizer restrictions. This is America dammit and we thrower down and grow tall tall green grass with tons of chemicals. Because freedom. Red white and blue. F-250. And a whole bunch of other $hit


hey wait, @Pete1313 is in Illinois, he is still allowed to love that triplex so long as he posts pictures for me to drool over.

I think I get it. Mow where I am happy and the grass does not look like crap. I guess it is fairly obvious when the lawn starts getting stressed, so it is a fairly simple fix to just open the rachio app and tell it to add water, then adjust the HOC from there if needed.

Lets face it, I have a spinny mower, so for now, sub-2" will not happen. 2.5"-3" is still good. I think things are a hair long in the 3.5-4 range, but it still isnt awful. It just tricks you to think it needs mowed way more often.

My neighbor has a service and it is funny when they mow 2-3 days after me and are still almost an inch taller. PGR helps in this regard too.

As for chemicals, my neighbor was all excited the other day because he found fertilizer with phosphorus. some 14-4-x fert that he found at a seed store. I told him my starter is 18-24-12 and if he just took a moment to look beyond his scotts 4 step program, he would see lots of options.


----------



## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> @Turfguy93 thanks for sharing!


No problem at all! How are your kbg roots looking like so far?


----------



## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Turfguy93 said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> > Turfguy93 thanks for sharing!
> ...


Took a few samples yesterday. Was looking mainly at soil moisture but it looks like the roots are thru the 4" mark. They are alittle thin, but not too bad for coming off a renovation. I'm not sure if the really heavy soil I have plays a part. I'll try and take a better sample of the root depth soon. HOC 13/16".


----------



## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

g-man said:


> Here is the article from northern Europe.
> 
> http://www.sterf.org/Media/Get/1816/water-use-of-various-furfgrass-species-on-greens-and-fairways


It's always something. I want to read your link when I get some time. I'll probably tag you for some clarification then.


----------



## Turfguy93 (Aug 30, 2017)

Pete1313 said:


> Turfguy93 said:
> 
> 
> > Pete1313 said:
> ...


Awesome man! Yeah heavy soil definitely plays a part


----------



## NoslracNevok (Jun 12, 2018)

Money is a huge factor for me, and the lower you go, the more it costs. My front lawn relatively much smaller than my back lawn, so I plan on making the front a low cut. Varieties of turf do better/worse at different HOC, so you'll also consider what you have, presuming you're like me and you don't know the exact strand, (and it's hard to train you grass down) you'd be starting from scratch so you can pick what you want based on your needs, soil, shade, traffic, climate, and financial situation.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It might sound crazy, but it looks to me that I'm actually using less water at 1in than at 3in. I keep dialing my crop factor back to see when I get to see the lawn stressed. My hypothesis is that the lateral grow blocks the sun more than a tall cut. The areas that were light on kbg are suffering more, hence why i will Reno them with Bewitched.


----------



## fusebox7 (Jul 27, 2017)

g-man said:


> It might sound crazy, but it looks to me that I'm actually using less water at 1in than at 3in. I keep dialing my crop factor back to see when I get to see the lawn stressed. My hypothesis is that the lateral grow blocks the sun more than a tall cut. The areas that were light on kbg are suffering more, hence why i will Reno them with Bewitched.


I've been debating bringing mine back down (at 3.25") right now mainly because of all the insects that like to hide in the longer turf. I'm certain that the elite cultivars will perform at the same level at a lower HOC as long as they get sufficient irrigation...and they really don't need that much from what I've seen thus far!


----------



## Wolverine (Jan 17, 2018)

4-4.5" in the heat. Mowing in the hear stresses the grass so I let it get shaggy.


----------



## kolbasz (Jun 7, 2017)

Brought the front to 3" and back to 3.5 (max on the mower) as the back has no irrigation.

I need to dial in my watering as the rachio is trying to over water by running when the soil is still moist.


----------

