# Multiple Failed Seedings



## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

Long time reader first time poster here from Nashville, TN. So for the third straight season when I have aerated/seeded Hogan's blend fescue in the fall it has stopped at 2 inches and not gotten any taller. I have an irrigation system and follow the suggested watering plan religiously. I have many neighbors without an irrigation system that are kicking my butt because my grass keeps stopping and then dying (and I just end up with a yard full of weeds). If anything I may water a little too much but I feel that's better than not enough. Maybe it has something to do with the short falls here? I do tend to have to seed in late September because it's too hot, and then we have some really cold nights in early November (so we usually have a short fall). What do you guys and gals think I'm doing wrong? I would say maybe it's my soil, but I have several neighbors dominating me with great stands of grass that I'm 99% sure don't throw down any soil amendments. Also, I did test my PH levels once with a device off amazon, and I think they were in range. I do have a little Bermuda slowly taking over my backyard. Should I just switch to Bermuda since my soil doesn't kill that, and then my front and backyard will match?


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

If you have adjacent neighbors with great stands of grass, i doubt your lack of success seeding is significantly influenced by poor soil.

Whats your watering schedule like? Have you ever done the tuna can test to see how much water you are putting down per session? Watering too much is not necessarily better than not watering enough. Constant watering and prolonged periods of leaf wetness can lead to fungus which will knock out your seedlings pretty quick. Have you ever put down any fungicides?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

I water 4 times a day for 5-6 minutes per zone until I've got good germination. I then go to 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the evening for several days. Then I slowly water water more in the mornings until I'm only watering in the mornings. When the grass gets around 2" I switch to every 2-3 times a week for 45 minutes (about 1.5 inches l) if we don't get any rain. I have never tried a fungicide.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

How much fertilizer (nitrogen) have you applied since germination?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

I put starter fert out with the seed and seeded Oct
11th. I've read to wait until a month to hit it again so I haven't put any more out.


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## VALawnNoob (Jun 9, 2020)

Mgoblue19 said:


> Long time reader first time poster here from Nashville, TN. So for the third straight season when I have aerated/seeded Hogan's blend fescue in the fall it has stopped at 2 inches and not gotten any taller. I have an irrigation system and follow the suggested watering plan religiously. I have many neighbors without an irrigation system that are kicking my butt because my grass keeps stopping and then dying (and I just end up with a yard full of weeds). If anything I may water a little too much but I feel that's better than not enough. Maybe it has something to do with the short falls here? I do tend to have to seed in late September because it's too hot, and then we have some really cold nights in early November (so we usually have a short fall). What do you guys and gals think I'm doing wrong? I would say maybe it's my soil, but I have several neighbors dominating me with great stands of grass that I'm 99% sure don't throw down any soil amendments. Also, I did test my PH levels once with a device off amazon, and I think they were in range. I do have a little Bermuda slowly taking over my backyard. Should I just switch to Bermuda since my soil doesn't kill that, and then my front and backyard will match?


Post pictures


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## Glen_Cove_5511 (Jun 13, 2020)

What fescue cultivars are in the Hogan blend? I've used Hogan seed for my last two overseeds. I've used an 85/15 TTTF, *** mix each time. The TTTF in my mix is "Lateral Spread" and it's seems very slow to grow. In fact, it's a lot like the *** which means it'll remain immature until Spring. I live in Knoxville and have the same short Fall. Next Fall, I'll probably use GCI Cool Blue and see how it performs.


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## theguybrarian (Apr 11, 2020)

Mgoblue19 said:


> I do tend to have to seed in late September because it's too hot, and then we have some really cold nights in early November (so we usually have a short fall).


I seeded a small shade area with fescue on labor day this year. I probably could have done it a week earlier if I wanted to. I wouldn't stress too much about the end of summer temps and get seed out earlier.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Mgoblue19 said:


> I water 4 times a day for 5-6 minutes per zone until I've got good germination. I then go to 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the evening for several days. Then I slowly water water more in the mornings until I'm only watering in the mornings. When the grass gets around 2" I switch to every 2-3 times a week for 45 minutes (about 1.5 inches l) if we don't get any rain. I have never tried a fungicide.


Is that 1.5" per watering session? or 1.5" total for the week?

Sounds like a fungus may be your issue if you are consistently getting good germination but the grass dies shortly after. Do you have pics, especially of the dead/dying areas of grass?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> Mgoblue19 said:
> 
> 
> > I water 4 times a day for 5-6 minutes per zone until I've got good germination. I then go to 10 minutes in the morning and 10 minutes in the evening for several days. Then I slowly water water more in the mornings until I'm only watering in the mornings. When the grass gets around 2" I switch to every 2-3 times a week for 45 minutes (about 1.5 inches l) if we don't get any rain. I have never tried a fungicide.
> ...


I try to put down 1.5 inches per week once the grass is a couple inches tall. The grass stays green until spring/summer and doesn't die in the fall (so I won't have pictures of dead grass yet).


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

VALawnNoob said:


> Mgoblue19 said:
> 
> 
> > Long time reader first time poster here from Nashville, TN. So for the third straight season when I have aerated/seeded Hogan's blend fescue in the fall it has stopped at 2 inches and not gotten any taller. I have an irrigation system and follow the suggested watering plan religiously. I have many neighbors without an irrigation system that are kicking my butt because my grass keeps stopping and then dying (and I just end up with a yard full of weeds). If anything I may water a little too much but I feel that's better than not enough. Maybe it has something to do with the short falls here? I do tend to have to seed in late September because it's too hot, and then we have some really cold nights in early November (so we usually have a short fall). What do you guys and gals think I'm doing wrong? I would say maybe it's my soil, but I have several neighbors dominating me with great stands of grass that I'm 99% sure don't throw down any soil amendments. Also, I did test my PH levels once with a device off amazon, and I think they were in range. I do have a little Bermuda slowly taking over my backyard. Should I just switch to Bermuda since my soil doesn't kill that, and then my front and backyard will match?
> ...


I will in the morning but it's just gonna looks like 1.5-2.5" grass that has stopped growing about 3 weeks after seeding.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Mgoblue19 said:


> jha4aamu said:
> 
> 
> > Mgoblue19 said:
> ...


I guess I'm confused. I was under the impression that your overseed from 10/11 is what you are saying was dying off? At what point/time of year are you seeing the grass dying?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> Mgoblue19 said:
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> 
> > jha4aamu said:
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It doesn't die off right away. Every year it has just stopped growing only to die off in the spring or early summer.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

It sounds like roughly what's happening, is that the grass isn't developing far enough before growth slows to a crawl/stops during Winter, and then in Spring it's behind where it should be. Summer heat, foot traffic, and maybe pre-emergent herbicides do a number on it at that time as a result.

My solution when this happens is to try seeding earlier. Maybe two weeks. Maybe a month. That might solve the issue. Then again, late Sept should be fine in your area for Tall Fescue. Maybe try a week or two earlier.

I guess it could be soil nutrient deficiencies, but if you're fertilizing the new grass with all 3 macros, it would mitigate any issues.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

Mgoblue19 said:


> It doesn't die off right away. Every year it has just stopped growing only to die off in the spring or early summer.


How much and when do you apply fertilizer (nitrogen) in spring?


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

Green said:


> It sounds like roughly what's happening, is that the grass isn't developing far enough before growth slows to a crawl/stops during Winter, and then in Spring it's behind where it should be. Summer heat, foot traffic, and maybe pre-emergent herbicides do a number on it at that time as a result.
> 
> My solution when this happens is to try seeding earlier. Maybe two weeks. Maybe a month. That might solve the issue. Then again, late Sept should be fine in your area for Tall Fescue. Maybe try a week or two earlier.
> 
> I guess it could be soil nutrient deficiencies, but if you're fertilizing the new grass with all 3 macros, it would mitigate any issues.


Seeding too late was my initial thought as well when I saw his seeding date is around 10/11. But if the young seedlings make it through the winter, it seems they would begin to grow/thrive once spring conditions come. Would an early spring pre-em app cause significant damage to underdeveloped seedlings, even if they are 5mo old?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

Lawn Whisperer said:


> Mgoblue19 said:
> 
> 
> > It doesn't die off right away. Every year it has just stopped growing only to die off in the spring or early summer.
> ...


I haven't been fertilizing at all except at seeding and then a month after seeding. I also haven't applied pre emergent so that isn't the issue. I
also normally seed in mid-September and those have all failed as well with the exact same result.


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

Mgoblue19 said:


> Lawn Whisperer said:
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> > Mgoblue19 said:
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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

With the amount of water you are putting down, my guess would still be fungus. Without pics it would just be a guess though


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## LegionLawn (Oct 31, 2020)

Pics would be very helpful. I am in Clarksville, TN and can tell you that fungus AND army worms destroyed my first attempt this year on 9/6 and I had to reseed and spray fungicide and insecticide on 9/24.

Also, things are slowing down now for sure with these colder temps we've been getting.


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## Lawn Whisperer (Feb 15, 2021)

Mgoblue19 said:


> Lawn Whisperer said:
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> > Mgoblue19 said:
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Cut back on your watering. At these temps, you should be watering less than 1" per week. The extra watering is washing all the soil nutrients below the roots.

Cut the lawn at 2", then apply 0.25 lbs of Nitrogen per 1k sq. ft. Try to use a high nitrogen, fast release fertilizer. Water in the fertilizer with 0.25" of water. Do the same thing a week later. A week after the 2nd 0.25lbs of nitrogen you can increase to 0.50 lbs of nitrogen bi-weekly, continue until top growth has stopped.

In early spring, spoon feed with fertilizer. In May, apply 1 lb of nitrogen per 1k sq. ft.

I recommend looking over the  Cool Season Overseed  guide. Additionally, a  soil test from a reputable lab  in late winter should provide you with a proper fertilization plan.


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

Your profile says you have 17k sqft of yard. Does all of that stop growing and die each year or are there areas that struggle and areas that do ok? How long have you lived there? Over the last several years, what have you put down in the yard in terms of fertilizer, pre-emergent, herbicide? Have you ever had a soil test done?

And just to +1, pics would help. Even if nothing is dying currently, they may still help give a more complete picture of your situation.


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

Fraust said:


> Your profile says you have 17k sqft of yard. Does all of that stop growing and die each year or are there areas that struggle and areas that do ok? How long have you lived there? Over the last several years, what have you put down in the yard in terms of fertilizer, pre-emergent, herbicide? Have you ever had a soil test done?
> 
> And just to +1, pics would help. Even if nothing is dying currently, they may still help give a more complete picture of your situation.


I will post pics later this morning. I only seed my front yard which is roughly 7,000 square feet. Bermuda has naturally taken over my backyard and I'm just gonna let it take over back there since my soil apparently doesn't reject it like it does the fescue!


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

Here are some pictures. I haven't used pre emergent and don't fertilize all year (only do it around seeding) so don't judge the weeds. But the grass has stopped at this height for the third consecutive year. Again, I usually seed in mid-September and that failed twice as well.


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## jha4aamu (Oct 16, 2017)

A couple things I see, and Im sure other will chime in as well

-i think you should add a few additional apps of N throughout the year (not just when seeding). A healthier stand of grass could crowd out some weeds

-def need to get a pre-em down in the spring. Im not sure what all of the weeds are so idk if timing is right now, but Id be inclined to spray a postemergent.

-Have you noticed any mole tracks in the yard?


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

jha4aamu said:


> A couple things I see, and Im sure other will chime in as well
> 
> -i think you should add a few additional apps of N throughout the year (not just when seeding). A healthier stand of grass could crowd out some weeds
> 
> ...


I will definitely start with a pre emergent in the spring and then start fertilizing throughout the year. I have not noticed any mole hills.


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## Old Hickory (Aug 19, 2019)

Air temps do not equate to soil temps. You should be fertilizing (N primarily) and cutting weekly for a few more weeks in Middle Tennessee. Also, you should cut back on watering as Nashville has been pretty wet this Fall. I bet your soil is soaked. 
And you can attack weeds in February.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Mgoblue19 said:


> It doesn't die off right away. Every year it has just stopped growing only to die off in the spring or early summer.


I'm going to ask a question here nobody else has. How heavy are you seeding? Seeding too heavy can be a problem as too many baby grass plants fighting for water and nutrients will lead to weaker and wimpier plants which will be less likely to survive the following harsh summer months.

I joined this forum about a year ago as I was at my wits end as to why with all my efforts, my fall planted grass died come the following summer - hence my screen name Deadlawn - I need to change that, LOL. I had much better luck when I seeded lighter. I also increased organic matter amendments. As others have mentioned here, next spring, don't water too often - once or even twice a week is enough. Deep infrequent watering will encourage plants to send roots deeper while shallow frequent watering will keep roots in the top layer where they will be less resistant the heat and drought. Get a rain gauge and if you are getting at least one inch of rain per week, DON'T WATER.

Also, since you are in TN, if you really want to grow TTTF, have you looked into any of the southern blends that are more heat and drought tolerant? Scott's has a TTTF that they call Southern Blend that has cultivars developed for the South.

I should note that this year, I tried one area where I tilled the ground down to about a foot before seeding. The area next to it I didn't till. I added 2-3 inches of compost and put down starter fertilizer to both areas. I seeded them at the same time. The grass in the area I tilled jumped out of the ground while the other area was much slower to get started.


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## Mgoblue19 (Nov 3, 2021)

I think I did 6 pounds per 1000 for my send rate. It was the maximum that Hogans recommended. I haven't looked into Scott's. I did Hogans because it got such glowing reviews here.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

It goes through a stage of sprout and pout for a little bit. Try cutting the water back to every other day. Once it's germinated and it slows down cut back the watering frequency and irrigate for like 20min or a half hour. Even every 3 days might still work depending on the temperatures.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

That grass looks like it should be cut...


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## vettetrm (Apr 7, 2018)

My thoughts.... Don't water so much. As the temperatures get colder it needs less and less water. I can't stand that 1"-1.5" of water needed per week BS. When it is 90 degrees... Yes. Daytime highs of 70 and only that warm for a hour of the day it would be more like .5" or less per week. You are flooding your roots and causing Anaerobic conditions. That is one reason the baby grass isn't growing. I also see watering in the evening after germination. Nooo! Stop that. It is sitting there with wet feet (roots) all night. Asking for trouble. Once the seed all germinates, water only if it really dry. Don't be afraid to let it stress a little. You don't need a set schedule. Just pay attention. 
Next thing.... You are fertilizing at seed down and never again?? Tall fescue seed has enough energy to grow to 1 1/2" or so with no fertilizer at all. So you put the fert down, water, water, water, water, germinates, water, water, water, water, grows to 1 1/2" or 2" with just the energy from the seed. By that time you have flushed all the fert through the soil. Grass sits there with no NPK and doesn't grow. Try fertilizing when the grass gets up to 1 1/2" or so. From my experience fert at seeding is unnecessary and only gets the existing grass growing faster. Also, if you put the seed down in October something or other and don't fert again until a month later November something or other, November could be a little late to see much growth out of it depending on the soil temps.
Last thing I see..... That grass looks like it should have been cut at least once already, maybe more. One it is all up in an overseed, Mow. The existing grass will be taller and shades the baby grass keeping it from growing. No light, no food. 
Mowing also seems to encourage young grass to grow. Mow lower the first few mows with sharp blades, if it tries to leave piles of clippings, bag, be light footed, and careful turning the mower in the baby grass.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

vettetrm said:


> My thoughts.... Don't water so much. As the temperatures get colder it needs less and less water. I can't stand that 1"-1.5" of water needed per week BS. When it is 90 degrees... Yes. Daytime highs of 70 and only that warm for a hour of the day it would be more like .5" or less per week. You are flooding your roots and causing Anaerobic conditions. That is one reason the baby grass isn't growing. I also see watering in the evening after germination. Nooo! Stop that. It is sitting there with wet feet (roots) all night. Asking for trouble. Once the seed all germinates, water only if it really dry. Don't be afraid to let it stress a little. You don't need a set schedule. Just pay attention.
> Next thing.... You are fertilizing at seed down and never again?? Tall fescue seed has enough energy to grow to 1 1/2" or so with no fertilizer at all. So you put the fert down, water, water, water, water, germinates, water, water, water, water, grows to 1 1/2" or 2" with just the energy from the seed. By that time you have flushed all the fert through the soil. Grass sits there with no NPK and doesn't grow. Try fertilizing when the grass gets up to 1 1/2" or so. From my experience fert at seeding is unnecessary and only gets the existing grass growing faster. Also, if you put the seed down in October something or other and don't fert again until a month later November something or other, November could be a little late to see much growth out of it depending on the soil temps.
> Last thing I see..... That grass looks like it should have been cut at least once already, maybe more. One it is all up in an overseed, Mow. The existing grass will be taller and shades the baby grass keeping it from growing. No light, no food.
> Mowing also seems to encourage young grass to grow. Mow lower the first few mows with sharp blades, if it tries to leave piles of clippings, bag, be light footed, and careful turning the mower in the baby grass.


I agree with too much water causing anaeeobic contitions, but that largely deoends on soil type. If clay, then yes. If sand like I have here in MA, then that is highly unlikely unless you really, really go overboard on water.

I also will emphasize what you said about the importance of a sharp blade. Before your first cut on new seedlings is a great time to sharpen that blade! Otherwise you can literally yank those poor seedlings right out of the ground.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Feed it nitrogen and cut it frequently. You aren't supplying enough nutrients to your baby grass. Cut it twice a week if you can. Don't worry about how few clippings there might be. New grass (and established) should be cut frequently.

As for irrigation, 1 to 1.5" is a guideline only. Some weeks you might need 1" and others more or less. But definitely do not water in the evening.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

That's grass needs to be cut more often from that picture. Cutting often leads to thickening and a stronger lawn when it's young. Grass also needs more food then just at seed down. There's cheap options for your large property and a pre M in the early spring would help big time


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

jha4aamu said:


> But if the young seedlings make it through the winter, it seems they would begin to grow/thrive once spring conditions come. Would an early spring pre-em app cause significant damage to underdeveloped seedlings, even if they are 5mo old?


I think so. I mean, some people use pretty high rates, or hit it with split apps, etc. Pre-Ms definitely compromise establishment. This year, I went mostly without a pre-M (not something I typically do, or something I plan to do often), but my turf (most of it was already established by this time, but some was newer) performed better as a result. Pre-Ms are just one factor that might be a puzzle piece, but there's a reason they often say in the instructions to only apply medium and heavier rates to uniform established stands. Just my thoughts.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Mgoblue19,

I agree with others above...

Mow, mow, mow! ~2 to 2.5 inches for new grass if possible, and frequently, too!

And feed it! Nitrogen: low rates (0.25 lb of N/M) at least every couple of weeks. Still a month or so left to do so in TN, with the warmer Fall this year.

Potassium: Starting next Spring, if the soil test indicates it's needed, apply it regularly and continue your Nitrogen as well every 3 or so weeks after beginning to mow, until it's no longer cool and begins to get into the mid to upper 70s or even 80s. Keep mowing as often as possible. It will thicken. If soil test says P is needed, go with starter fert, Milo, etc.

TN weather is not a death sentence for cool season turf. It's the transition zone, so there will be some heat, insect, and fungal disease struggles. But you can also have a really nice turf there. It's a good, long growing season...


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## cbennett714 (9 mo ago)

LegionLawn said:


> Pics would be very helpful. I am in Clarksville, TN and can tell you that fungus AND army worms destroyed my first attempt this year on 9/6 and I had to reseed and spray fungicide and insecticide on 9/24.
> 
> Also, things are slowing down now for sure with these colder temps we've been getting.


I had the same issue here in Franklin. Fungus wiped out a good portion of the new grass in September.
Next time I will put down a fungicide during seeding.

I have not had any army worm issues so far.


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