# Fall/Winter Advice



## claydus (Jun 2, 2019)

Looking to get some input on a few things:

I'm located in North suburbs of Atlanta. I have a bermuda hybrid lawn with patches of common bermuda. I have two mowers honda rotary and john deere 220B. Haven't be able to commit to reel mowing this year as much as I have wanted. That being said the lawn has been 2-3 inches in height over past 2-3 months.

-What height should I keep my mower this fall? Exclusively mowing with rotary here on out.

-When should be my last mow till spring scalp? Specific air/soil temps and should they be consistent? Or just by the first frost?

-How to manage leaves? Mulch or bag with rotary mower?
***Leaves are a big annoyance to me and they started dropping a few weeks ago. I am constantly losing this battle.


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## tincan (Sep 4, 2020)

I'm in the same area as you and also using a rotary mower. I am continuing to mow with the same HOC that I have used for the whole season, which is the second lowest setting. I will continue to do so until the grass stops growing. I have noticed the growth has already slowed down significantly -- I had to mow about once every 4, 5 days in the summer. But when I mowed on Saturday, this was after about 10 days.

I blow the leaves into a pile and mulch them using a leaf mulcher.

The important thing at this time is to apply your pre-emergent if you haven't already done so. The temps are already in the low 60s and are projected to reach the low 50s next week.


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## jasonbraswell (Aug 18, 2019)

I'll keep mowing to keep it clean even after growth stops.
Currently, our soil temps are still in the low 70's.
Mulching the leaves with a mower is much easier than raking


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Last year I left my lawn at a regular height (probably 2" or so) because I heard it helps insulate the roots, but later someone else mentioned that golf courses keep really short HOCs, so apparently the insulation theory might not be entirely accurate.

This year I'm hoping to cut it down to around an inch or so once it starts going dormant, probably in December. I figure that the more work I do now, the less scalping work I have to do next Spring. It was a pain managing all the clippings this past Spring.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

Phids said:


> I heard it helps insulate the roots, but later someone else mentioned that golf courses keep really short HOCs, so apparently the insulation theory might not be entirely accurate.


Yes, but they use greens covers to insulate / protect the grass in extremely cold weather.
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/2018/five-tips-for-protecting-bermudagrass-putting-greens-during-extr.html

The damage does not occur until the temperature drops to the low teens or single digits which does not happen most years in Atlanta. But you never know if it will this year or not.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Automate said:


> Yes, but they use greens covers to insulate / protect the grass in extremely cold weather.
> https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/regional-updates/southeast-region/2018/five-tips-for-protecting-bermudagrass-putting-greens-during-extr.html


That's weird - I didn't realize golf courses used Bermudagrass greens. I only thought they were bentgrass or something like that. But in any case, I was actually thinking more of the fairways that are kept short (just not as short as the greens). I actually played golf throughout last winter on dormant golf courses, so I can verify that that they keep the fairways short. This is from January:



If you're interested, there's a good article on bermuda winterkill below. Basically, the worst thing is a rapid drop in temperature below 23 degrees when the grass isn't acclimated by lighter freezes first. Last year I don't think we got down that low in south Atlanta.

https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2010/01/winter-kill-and-responding-to-it-now/


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## Ben S (Oct 6, 2018)

Phids said:


> Last year I left my lawn at a regular height (probably 2" or so) because I heard it helps insulate the roots, but later someone else mentioned that golf courses keep really short HOCs, so apparently the insulation theory might not be entirely accurate.


The insulation theory was debunked here:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=349055#p349055


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## jasonbraswell (Aug 18, 2019)

I thought this was pretty solid advice. The path I am on except I used a 30-0-10 this past weekend.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ulavP7ktYuykQPk2f8g6opoAUByyuNE1/view?_kx=3f9EmjIbVM-y3yFIf99A0JrYTxMAJ2Ojh6G2S6R6zpI%3D.SPn3Fu


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I have pretty mild winters down here in Panama City with just a couple of freezes per year but we do get frost and cold temps. I have noticed that shorter HOCs go dormant significantly later than higher HOCs. There is nothing wrong with keeping higher HOCs going into the winter but I don't think there is going to be any insulation effect from Atlanta winters. It gets cold there, but typically not cold enough for serious winter kill.

On the other hand, I would not scalp it down to a lower HOC this late in the season. Once it goes dormant and is already brown you could start clipping it down little by little so that by the spring scalp you are not dealing with a Stone Mountain size pile of clippings.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

Phids said:


> That's weird - I didn't realize golf courses used Bermudagrass greens. I only thought they were bentgrass or something like that.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Automate said:


> Phids said:
> 
> 
> > I heard it helps insulate the roots, but later someone else mentioned that golf courses keep really short HOCs, so apparently the insulation theory might not be entirely accurate.
> ...


Good thing most peoples yards aren't sand based and cut .125 or less. fairways and tee boxes would be a better example if we want to compare.

Little reason to worry, even in atlanta about your lawn being damaged cutting it at lower heights.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Redtwin said:


> I have pretty mild winters down here in Panama City with just a couple of freezes per year but we do get frost and cold temps. I have noticed that shorter HOCs go dormant significantly later than higher HOCs. There is nothing wrong with keeping higher HOCs going into the winter but I don't think there is going to be any insulation effect from Atlanta winters. It gets cold there, but typically not cold enough for serious winter kill.
> 
> On the other hand, I would not scalp it down to a lower HOC this late in the season. Once it goes dormant and is already brown you could start clipping it down little by little so that by the spring scalp you are not dealing with a Stone Mountain size pile of clippings.


Agree.

The question of what to do with leaves, can be all done in one pass with the mower too!

Use your rotary, and mulch or bag. As the winter progresses, lower the HOC on the dormant grass when picking up debris. You'll little by little take more of it down, making the spring scalp a lot easier.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

FATC1TY said:


> Little reason to worry, even in atlanta about your lawn being damaged cutting it at lower heights.


I agree but also think it's not a good idea to scalp your lawn going into winter like some people do.

It's basic physics. What do you do to keep the cold out of your house? Add insulation. The grass leaves act as insulation to the crowns, roots and ground.

If the ground stays warmer over the winter you reduce the chance of winter kill and the grass will green up quicker in the spring.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Automate said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> > Little reason to worry, even in atlanta about your lawn being damaged cutting it at lower heights.
> ...


Agree on scalping, it's kind of. Waste of time regardless to do it going into winter.

As for insulating, perhaps, but my scalped yard greens up way before everyone else, and stays green longer, despite the insulating tall grass theory.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

FATC1TY said:


> As for insulating, perhaps, but my scalped yard greens up way before everyone else, and stays green longer, despite the insulating tall grass theory.


I wonder where the insulating tall grass theory came from. I do know that with roses you can insulate the plants by covering them with a cone or cylinder that you fill with leaves, which provide insulation. However, I can't imagine that 2" grass blades are going to protect a lawn from cold any more than 1" grass.

With that said, one issue that hasn't yet been discussed is _appearance_. I do think that a taller, fuzzy yellow dormant Bermuda lawn looks better than a short brownish lawn.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

FATC1TY said:


> As for insulating, perhaps, but my scalped yard greens up way before everyone else, and stays green longer, despite the insulating tall grass theory.


I can definitely see that happening. You put more time, experience and attention into your grass than 99.99 percent of your neighbors. So your grass goes into winter in a healthier condition than anyone else. This makes a big difference in the spring. In addition, TifTuf is known to be a good cold tolerant cultivar.

Grass height is only one, probably fairly small factor in the equation.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Automate said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> > As for insulating, perhaps, but my scalped yard greens up way before everyone else, and stays green longer, despite the insulating tall grass theory.
> ...


Good thing I can compare easily. I rotary cut my backyard, reel my front. They all get treated the same, other than my backyard doesnt get PGR. One is .375 and the other is 2in.

I even stopped cutting my hell strip with a reel snd used only my rotary scissors this year. It's out front, treated the same, with pgr.

Should be interesting to see how long each one takes before it goes dormant, as well as which one greens up first. I already have an idea, but doing different stuff this year to see how the grass comes out.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

FATC1TY said:


> Should be interesting to see how long each one takes before it goes dormant, as well as which one greens up first. I already have an idea, but doing different stuff this year to see how the grass comes out.


The shorter cut grass will definitely stay greener in the fall. I'll agree with you on that and it's easy to explain.

The grass temperature is what determines when it turns brown. In the fall the ground is warmer than the air. The grass closer to the ground is kept warmer by the warm ground whereas the taller grass is more exposed to the colder air temperature.

On spring green up. I'm not saying gas kept taller over the winter will always green up faster. All I'm saying is at the end of the growing season, don't scalp your lawn and if you do anything to the HOC it would be better to raise it.

Even in the same yard with same type of grass, the green up in the spring is effected by other factors than just the grass height such as:

 Amount of sun per day
 Morning vs afternoon sun
 Exposure to cold northern winds 
 Soil moisture content
 Grass thickness (I would guess your reel cut grass is thicker)
 Height and timing of spring scalp

Do you plan on scalping your back yard to the same height as the front in the spring?


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

Automate said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> > Should be interesting to see how long each one takes before it goes dormant, as well as which one greens up first. I already have an idea, but doing different stuff this year to see how the grass comes out.
> ...


Yes. Everything gets scalped to the dirt( even some dirt gets mowed!) in the early spring. I do it before I put down my pre emergent sometimes so I don't have any vegetation to contend with.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

FATC1TY said:


> Yes. Everything gets scalped to the dirt( even some dirt gets mowed!) in the early spring. I do it before I put down my pre emergent sometimes so I don't have any vegetation to contend with.


The best way.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I think scalping early in the spring allows for a bit of an earlier green up by getting the sun to the soil to warm it up. That thick layer of turf doesn't provide much insulation in my opinion but it certainly shades the soil. I have absolutely no scientific evidence of this other than comparing my reel cut turf to my higher rotary areas. I also only have two full seasons of comparison so there are still a ton of variables in play. I'm a big supporter of scalping all the way to the dirt in the spring like you guys have mentioned.


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## Phids (Sep 24, 2020)

Redtwin said:


> I think scalping early in the spring allows for a bit of an earlier green up by getting the sun to the soil to warm it up. That thick layer of turf doesn't provide much insulation in my opinion but it certainly shades the soil.


I think you're quite right about scalping earlier than later to help push the green in late winter. I think the question here, though, is whether you can bring down your HOC in late Fall or if you should grow out your lawn a bit. Some people may tell you to leave your Bermuda at 2" or maybe 3" throughout the winter. While I'm not going to scalp my lawn in the Fall, I think that leaving it that high will not be a benefit in terms of insulation, and will only leave me with a lot of work when I do have to scalp in late winter. Maybe bringing it down to 1" or so in the Fall is the best option.


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## Automate (Aug 14, 2020)

Property line with my neighbor. Same type of 20 year old Bermuda, probably 419. I cut mine this summer at 1" and he cut his at 2 to 2.5". I stopped cutting mine end of September since the grass was barely growing after that.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

I think there's some type of "insulation" factor if you live in or near a translation zone. If you have people who maintain a cool season lawn with any success, consider it close enough.

Scalp your stuff down as early as you want when the itch hits in the spring. I would do it before any green up, or when you start to see some sprouts. It will lend to a quicker green up, or rather a greener and cleaner appearance.


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## rotolow (May 13, 2020)

The shorter I keep mine the less dormant it becomes. I thought it might have to do with a lower HOC allowing those few hours of sunlight to better heat the ground rather than leggy Bermuda shade it out. Or just a shorter plant using less energy and stays greener longer. Not sure, but shorter stays green longer for me.

Also I found that leaving it 2+ inches over winter makes the spring scalp an absolute beast. I might be a crazy person but I get mine ~1 inch in December and take another 1/4 in the spring. I don't have to bag it at all and let the late winter rains do what they will to the clippings.


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## FATC1TY (Jul 12, 2017)

rotolow said:



> The shorter I keep mine the less dormant it becomes. I thought it might have to do with a lower HOC allowing those few hours of sunlight to better heat the ground rather than leggy Bermuda shade it out. Or just a shorter plant using less energy and stays greener longer. Not sure, but shorter stays green longer for me.
> 
> Also I found that leaving it 2+ inches over winter makes the spring scalp an absolute beast. I might be a crazy person but I get mine ~1 inch in December and take another 1/4 in the spring. I don't have to bag it at all and let the late winter rains do what they will to the clippings.


I do the same. Occasionally will mow during dormant to clean up any junk in the yard, and will go lower if I can to minimize the mess later.


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