# Very Newbie stuck with "natural" and trying to get to Tier 2.



## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Hey all,

Found this forum after not enjoying the sarcasm/knuckleheads on the Facebook lawn care forums. We purchased a house late last fall. Have never had a green thumb or much knowledge, but slowly starting to fall down the rabbit hole. I never knew there was as much science behind lawn care until now - but also present a challenge and my brain says "DO IT!"

Goal for the moment: Tier 2 (but I know it'll be a journey!)

Info: 
* We're in NE Wisconsin
* Backyard is ~5.8k sqft
* Front yard ~ 3.8k sqft
* Yard has irrigation. Irrigation was poorly maintained by the past owners. A really old Rainbird ESP. My summer has been consumed by replacing tons of broken rotors or resetting their depth as ~10 of them were buried 2-4 inches underground. Fixing holes in the polypipe. Previous owners had poorly set timers from what I've researched and with the fungus concerns noted below, I stopped irrigating all together for now. Once everything is reset, plan to do a tuna can test to calibrate things correctly. 
* No soil test done but hoping to do one prior to August. 
* We live very close to a river bank which is notoriously clay-ish soil from neighbor discussions. My newbie mind is not sure it's full clay, but it's definitely not sand or just straight "dirt" like I've otherwise experienced. It has been really "fun" digging/resetting all the irrigation rotors in whatever we have.
* We have buried invisible fence and automower lines in the yard so currently doing most things by hand to avoid any "bombs." (already hit a few pieces of automower wire by Yard Butler aerating Previous owners had an automower which led to our continuation. No map of where the wires were so March-April i spent digging/resetting it all after severing)
* We are a bit elevated compared to the neighbors which introduces a slope to the lawn sides, and lots of utility pipeage around these areas.
* Our backyard has a small berm which we do not own, and between our yard/berm is a drainage way of some sort which is very often wet and occassionally water-pooled. I'm not sure how feasible a french drain would be given the location. We own to the bottom of the berm so I can fill it in/level if needed. 
* We have kids and actively play in our lawn space.
* Purchased a SunJoe dethatcher this spring. Have a hand-tool aerator (Yard butler)
* Recently we've started getting many more mushrooms in the back yard. I Milo'ed early June. 
* I'm not sure the type of grass we have.

I was considering hand aerating, dethatching, doing some slight leveling, and overseeding with KBG this fall. I'm second guessing now after reading more on KBG not being newbie friendly, considering our "natural" situation and variety of weeds I'm having to hand pluck. Soil also needs to be prepped and redressed with organic matter to lessen the clay aspect, but reading will take a number of years of topdressing to correct?

The factors which I need to work within/very unlikely to change any time soon:
* We have a Husqvarna automower as our mower of preference due to our pretty busy lives currently. Max HOC is 2.4" (we still have an Ariens push/bagger my wife is leaning on me to sell)
* My BFF is my vizsla, Kobi, who is nearing 10 years old.
* With dog / kids / wife it's a hard sell to do ANY type of "chemical" treatments. Wife was noticeably anxious about even trying Milorganite for the first time. Little interest to learn more, but a continued belief any chemical is a bad chemical and will kill the dog via cancer. I've taken to walking around the yard with a needle nose pliers trying to pull out dandelions I find, yanking out black medic, and being utterly perplexed about what do about potential quackgrass in the front yard which seems to be wildly spreading.
* Limited funds (using my funbux to do lawn improvements while I hear "why are you spending your money/time on the lawn?")

Where I'm at today:
Still learning, researching, and applying with what I can do. I understand there is likely a ceiling to what I can achieve any time in the near future given some of the variables. No doubt I have/will make more mistakes but I have a 30 year loan to figure this out 

First picture is the lawn today. Not the smartest idea (but again, dumb newbie still learning) but wanted to test out the aerator and dethatcher. The more lush green space to the bottom of the picture, closer to the patio is roughly where I dethatched / aerated, Milo'd, threw down sun/shade seed mix in May as a test. This area looked like poo originally. It's looking much better but probably not 100% The outer areas area brownish still and the heart of the matter is fungus? need for nitrogen? need for thatching?
I should have done the whole lawn but I was limited on time and giddy to try things out. We're hitting July and stuck until things cool down again - but trying to make a plan of attack!

Second picture is the backyard drainage area. There are brown spots developing which I'm guessing is a disease of fungus. Again - no support on getting any type of product to cure what is going on. It has been torrentially raining the past week and some of what I THOUGHT was dead/diseased grass I think was just dormant from the irrigation not being calibrated correctly. I stopped irrigation completely and havent cut for about a week and half. Grass now at about 4.5". My "thought" was to use the push mower to bag it down to 3.5, then 2.5 the following week in hopes of not stressing it too much with the heat / disease. OPEN TO ADVICE!!!!

Picture three a close up of the outer grass conditions.

Second to last picture is a stalk from grass in the front - thinking it's quack by the auricle?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I see the auricle but not a clasping auricle. Here is a Purdue article on quack grass identification:
https://turf.purdue.edu/quackgrass/
Another distinguishing feature is that it has rhizomes.
Here is another article that illustrates terms:
https://extension.psu.edu/the-cool-season-turfgrasses-identification
The VA Tech ID guide may be helpful. It doesn't distinguish between clasping auricles and plain auricles. Rhizomes are what distinguish it from grasses with auricles like tttf and rye that also have auricles but no rhizomes.
https://weedid.cals.vt.edu/selectors/2

If you are very limited in what products you can use without strife in your family, I suggest waiting until the dog is gone and the kids are older. Until then, just mow, water when necessary, fertilize with organic substances. As long as there are roots in the ground and something is growing, you are improving the soil (leave your clippings on the lawn) and stopping erosion. Mulch mow leaves into the lawn in the fall.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Reno or Sod. Only way to get what you want.


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> I see the auricle but not a clasping auricle. Here is a Purdue article on quack grass identification:
> https://turf.purdue.edu/quackgrass/
> Another distinguishing feature is that it has rhizomes.
> Here is another article that illustrates terms:
> ...


I'll take a look at those pages and hopefully scalpel out a part and pic if I'm still bewildered. May be a second as it took me a month just to find time to generate this post :lol:

My idea was to hammer it home after dog/kids, but wanted to ceiling as much as I could prior. 
Thoughts on types to overseed in fall in an attempt to fill in the sparse areas? KBG seems maybe wasteful at the moment?


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

As a re-sum. Looking for something to "do" with the lawn over time to prep it and slowly improve even if over 5+ years. 
Can't say I'm content with the wife's "it's grass, why do anything?" approach.

From a "ehhh some use" to "waste of time entirely" on hand picking the weeds/dandelions?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Bare areas? Where? I would not overseed with KBG. It takes too long to germinate and will be overshadowed/outcompeted by the existing grass which will need cutting long before KBG seedlings need cutting, so you would be walking all over seeds or emerging seedlings each time. If you have KBG already, encourage it in the fall with fertilizer. It spreads. It will fill in small bare areas. You also have rye. If you need to overseed here or there, use that. It germinates quickly.

Something you could do is a soil test. The soil forum here has info on soil testing. If the pH is low, lime will bring it up. Is lime acceptable to your wife? It's a natural substance. For that matter, I wonder if you could convince that urea is a natural substance too, although as a fertilizer it's synthesized from inorganic compounds.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

As for weeds, it depends on how numerous they are and whether they're intertwined with the grass. Like clover, for example. It's hard to pull out clover, though I have done it by running my finger along the ground feeling for the runners. Dandelions have deep roots but can be pulled out, especially if you use a trowel to assist. It helps to do weed pulling after rain when the ground is softer. You could look at it as back exercise. There are also weed tools you can use while standing up. It always feels good to pull out a weed.


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## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

I read your whole post but I all got out of it was * Limited funds : use your funbux for beer. I suggest Bells Amber Ale.

Everything Virginiagal tells you will be great advice. But i hated pulling weeds manually.


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## sam (Mar 10, 2018)

I have similar situation. You could look at fertilizers like Purely Organic Lawn Food - which is grain-based / plant-based. I'd be more comfortable with that than milo. Organic doesn't mean organic.

Other than that - if you fert and do all the cultural practices eg overseed, get the water right (set it to run overnight, infrequent and deep, then you be the one to open the water bills), mow twice a week, stick edge, then even if it isn't a monostand at least it'll look thick and vigorous and tidy, which is what most people see.


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Where I'm at today and taking the leap. Getting ready for a big overhaul to atleast work to establish KBG, and work on weed and other issues as variables allow. Had a soil test done (attached) and havent laid any products down since late spring Milorganite, have been hand pulling dandelions, black medic, and some other small creepers by the grass dopplegangers still evade me.

After reading the pre-germination KBG thread, I decided to give it a whirl but coming to post final thoughts before moving forward the last weekend in August. Hoping I have enough seed as damn it was expensive (to me), but atleast weed-free.

Equipment and the plan - "level" and overseed

10lb Midnight KBG seed
Yard butler manual aerator
Sunjoe dethatcher
Crappy-dont-ask-and-hoping-to-block-the-wheels broadcast spreader
 Crappy 17" lawn level for $50

Plan of action:

3.8k sq ft area to work on
 ~8/26/21, start soaking the KBG to pre-germinate, switch water every 12 hours or so.
 8/27/21, calculate 3.8k at .5" will take about 6 cu yards? -- have X cubic yards of pulverized/screened top soil dropped off.
 8/27/21 aerate
 8/28/21 scalp it down to 1"
 Dethatch this way, that way.
 Mow/bag one last time
 Throw down dirt and start leveling, front and sides. yard slopes a bit inward towards the front tree, then slants back up.
 Run the irrigation for a few to get the dirt wet and "settle" in(?)
 8/29/21 - take seed out and dry for 5-6 hours
 Mix with peat moss, put in spreader, throw it out (unsure on settings yet for crappy scotts?)
 walk around to set the seed in (no roller)
 start the irrigation fun and waiting

probably missing something or some suggestion.
Have enough seed? 
Probably need more peat moss? - only have a few bails (2.2 cu ft * 6 = 13) so will likely need some more.


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## jimmythegreek (Aug 7, 2020)

You would be better off using more seed amd doing a light gly app to shock the grass. Even if it dies it doeant matter as the kbg will grow great with a fall N push. Regardless let the grass grow and scalp it low low, to shock amd have a chance. Tttf would be a better overseed, I would recommend a Reno. Hitting it hard with gly is the only extra step amd then you get a nice stand of kbg. Never will be happy overseeding a mutt mix, I've done it amd always ended up nuking it amd regretted wasting the time amd money


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Lessons I will learn in due time I suppose. First timer and generally strike hard so figured why not on KBG. Looked up over seeding rates and seemed like weight would be appropriate but again -
Having never done, wasn't sure how filled in that ratio is. 
We're a no gly (and lots of other no's) household stuff the moment. I hear people saying it took 2-3 years for their KBG to fill in so I figure get it going at least and I can deal with weeds down the line with changes in kids/pets.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Good luck, but I think the existing grass/weeds will outcompete the seedlings.

You have a alkaline soil and it might not be possible to lower it. Read the soil remediation guide:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15165
The lab is giving you recommendations for the year. You need both phosphorus and potassium and the most efficient way to get them is to use a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10. Avoid lime. If you are limited to organic fertilizers, do some research to find some with phosphorus and potassium as well as nitrogen.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Whiles researching organic fertilizers, also research whether they are harmful to dogs. They could be more harmful than inorganic fertilizers, as dogs might lick the ground. I know when I applied Milorganite, dogs walking down the sidewalk would stop and roll around in it. They don't do that for my synthetic fertilizer. Check with your veterinarian for his recommendations. Maybe using a synthetic fertilizer, watering it in well, and keeping the dogs off the lawn for a certain amount of time would suffice to protect your dog.


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> Good luck, but I think the existing grass/weeds will outcompete the seedlings.
> 
> You have a alkaline soil and it might not be possible to lower it. Read the soil remediation guide:
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=15165
> The lab is giving you recommendations for the year. You need both phosphorus and potassium and the most efficient way to get them is to use a balanced fertilizer like 10-10-10. Avoid lime. If you are limited to organic fertilizers, do some research to find some with phosphorus and potassium as well as nitrogen.


 Even scalping it low low and pre-germinating the seeds?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You're welcome to try, but the existing grass/weeds have well established roots and will grow back faster than the seeds will grow. It would work well on bare areas, but you have good coverage of vegetation all over your yard. Weeds are always stronger than grass and you can't use herbicides. Really, if I were you I would just live with what you have until the dog dies and the kids are older. There is nothing wrong with mowed weeds. They are green and prevent erosion.


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Virginiagal said:


> You're welcome to try, but the existing grass/weeds have well established roots and will grow back faster than the seeds will grow. It would work well on bare areas, but you have good coverage of vegetation all over your yard. Weeds are always stronger than grass and you can't use herbicides. Really, if I were you I would just live with what you have until the dog dies and the kids are older. There is nothing wrong with mowed weeds. They are green and prevent erosion.


Well then we're about to document a failure for future fools to do better . Have everything prepped and on hand so have to follow through now and more so "what am I missing"

What would you otherwise do? Gly like other response?
I'm not unwilling to tilt or rip of the lawn a bit to mess with the underlying lawn, only worry was rhizomes if the one side is quack


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Yes, use some glyphosate to get rid of the weeds. Keep kids and dogs off the lawn for awhile (which you also need to do while the grass is trying to grow). By the time they can get back on the lawn the glyphosate will have broken down into simple elements. Suit up properly with protective clothing while you spray.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

You won't get what you want from an overseed.
I'd wait, you don't sound ready… a "very newbie " shouldn't do what you are doing. 
Get some more experience first.


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

While I will admit I agree with most of what others have said... you already bought all the supplies and if you have time time to theoretically "waste" go ahead and go for it. Worst case, it's a failure and you wind up with a lawn that you're just as unhappy with as your current one. All you're out is the money (which is already spent now anyway) and the time, and you learned some lessons.

For your plan though, if she's against any kind of chemicals (meaning stuff like regular herbicide, Tenacity, regular pre-em etc are out) I'd skip the aerating and new soil. Unless you have confirmed and substantial compaction and or grading issues, you're likely to just introduce more weeds than any good you'll do. 
I've also read through the KBG pre-germination thread, and I thought the general consensus was a 5 day soak. You only listed 3 days in your plan. If you're going to try it, might as well give it it's best shot with an extra couple days.
So start your soak. Scalp. Dethatch. Scalp/bag again. Dry/mix your seed. Get it down. And cross your fingers.


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## Duxwig (Jun 6, 2021)

Like you say, the money is invested and away we go even with a Challenger-esque ending.

I guess my own feeling is I'm guessing the seed will start and be fine (based on doing 50-60 patch repairs from the dog, automower wire installation lines all growing solidly with similar prep on the areas) and my true battle will be the weed and crap.

I'm just hoping it's better to introduce it sooner than later to get it going for future self-repair action and tackle the weeds once able. First summer so &#129335;&#127995;‍♂ what next year looks like better or worse on weeds. I'm not sure it can get much worse as hand pulling seemingly had some ok effects this year.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

This fall/winter do some research on preemergents and their toxicity to pets and children. You may find one your wife will approve of. An application in the spring (when the forsythia blooms) will do wonders for keeping annual summer weeds, like crabgrass, from germinating. I have multiple myeloma (in remission) and my husband blames herbicides for possibly contributing to it. I now let him apply the glyphosate and triclopyr when needed, like on poison oak. But I still apply Prodiamine in the spring myself, well protected with a mask and disposable gloves and long sleeves and pants.


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## LegionLawn (Oct 31, 2020)

Duxwig said:


> Can't say I'm content with the wife's "it's grass, why do anything?" approach.
> 
> From a "ehhh some use" to "waste of time entirely" on hand picking the weeds/dandelions?


Keep the faith and keep working at it. My wife said the same thing when I started and then she saw the lush beautiful green grass and felt it under her feet and told me she finally understood.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

My back yard is mostly organic because that's where the kids and dog play. I use organic fertilizer but I also put down a spring pre M . The occasional weed I get I just spot spray . The front lawn I pay attention and use what I need to use organic or not to get the lawn I want. Kids don't play there either does the dog. I don't tell the wife how to clean the bathroom she doesn't tell me how to do the lawn lol.


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