# adding PRG when doing a mono?!?



## Trogdor (Jan 13, 2019)

I'm set on doing a mono. Thanks to all for the encouragement!

Again in some discussions in talking with the seed distributor, and with a super from a golf course, they recommended to plaster PRG to get quick establishment for the KBG, and not get a washout if we get flash pours. They both said that with a low HOC that the PRG will die out. I'm not too sure it would... I thought it was strange, but have heard it from two people now who seem to have experience under their belt.

Is this a common practice? Doesn't seem like the method for a mono.


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## MMoore (Aug 8, 2018)

I've used seed with PRG. it does establish really fast and it seems like when I blanket sprayed tenacity it smashed what came back, but that was a higher-end application that did turn my kbg white for a bit too.

for a true mono lawn, I wouldn't though.... I did this in an area in my front which is all kinds of grasses lol. I would just be ready with the monostand to put more seed down if needed.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I don't think rye will die from a low cut. Though, if you have really cold winters, it might die from that. I would skip rye if doing a mono. I would definitely roll the seed to keep it there and reduce runoff during heavy rain. Not guaranteed but I saw a lot less runoff when I rolled vs not rolling. Also, some KBG will germ in a week. Not sure which cultivars do but you can do a test in a pot outside and see what timing you are looking at before you actually seed. Also, you can soak the seed to reduce germ time but then it is hard to spread wet seed.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Stop thinking about it and do the mono! You'll be fine without PRG. You're going to regret it half way through when you go through the pouting phase, but be happy you made the decision to go all KBG at the end of the season when you have a thick healthy lawn.

After germination you might have bare spots. Just throw down more seed.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@lawntips keeps prg mono at 5/8in. It doesn't die because of the low mow. If you want a kbg mono, then only use kbg. Flash rains are a risk, I have plenty of experience with that risk.


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## Grasshopper (Nov 12, 2017)

I would mono all the way.

I saw one of connorward's reasons for renoing was due to the patchiness of the PRG in his KBG/pr lawn.

If anything aren't there studies that show PR eventually outcompeting and taking over KBG in a mix? Not sure if that was mowed low or suffered harsh winters though...

Have you decided on what seed you'll be using?


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## NewLawnJon (Aug 3, 2018)

If you want a monostand do a monostand. If you have existing grass you are killing that will help hold the seed in place to prevent any washouts. Many of the PRG strains out there (if not all) tolerate low mowing. Ryan Knorr has some sections in front of his house that are 100% PRG, and from what I have read on the internets many of the sport courts in Europe that are low mowed (like Wimbledon) are 100% perennial rye, and are mowed somewhere around 3/8"


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

I've seen people mix in an annual ryegrass when starting a KBG lawn because of its quick germination and one year lifecycle. My buddies lawn looked awful with the ARG but it died off over the winter and his lawn looks good now. If you're really worried about washouts, that could be an option.


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

I added PRG in with my Bewitched.

I'm now planning to renovate it all again. The PRG grows way faster than the KBG and looks weird.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

For where you live (close to me), I would add the PRG at around 20%. It will not die of from low cut (PRG loves low cut), but it will die off from winter kill, as PRG does not handle our winters well. Within a few years it will mostly be gone..

Unless you are going to get a spreading PRG (which there are not many varieties), it will not spread. It will however germinate in 4-7 days and provide soil stability and cover for the KBG to come in.. It is also an early indicator of areas you are not getting good germination so you can fix.

Unless you want to be able to say "this is 100% KBG monostand and nothing else was ever seeded" I would have 20% PRG.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> I added PRG in with my Bewitched.
> 
> I'm now planning to renovate it all again. The PRG grows way faster than the KBG and looks weird.


Yes.. But you are in an area where PRG will not die off.. Where me and the OP live, it will be gone within a couple of years. When I was in Newberg in Jan there were flowers in front of the hotel.. Popped over to the Evergreen Aviation Museum.. That is a helluva place...


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I respectfully disagree with @Stuofsci02. PRG will not completely die off in the winter. You will be left with rye in your stand and it will stand out. Especially with one cultivar of bluegrass that grows even and is all the same colour you will see the p rye. Wash outs are part of the risk with a reno but that is the case even with prg mixed in. If you want a mono stand do a mono stand. You don't want to be left with a lawn that isn't what you set out for and you have to reno it again.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I respectfully disagree with @Stuofsci02. PRG will not completely die off in the winter. You will be left with rye in your stand and it will stand out. Especially with one cultivar of bluegrass that grows even and is all the same colour you will see the p rye. Wash outs are part of the risk with a reno but that is the case even with prg mixed in. If you want a mono stand do a mono stand. You don't want to be left with a lawn that isn't what you set out for and you have to reno it again.


I don't disagree that if you want a monostand to do a monostand, but study's have shown fairly conclusively that PRG grown outside of it's preferred environment has considerable die off.. This is especially pronounced in areas with extreme winters (long stretches below freezing).

"The Three Year Study Results

In a three year study where ryegrass and buegrass was grown outside its preferred growing areas, there was significant ryegrass decline. How much decline? In some studies as much as 95% in three years. The rate of ryegrass decline was measured and the percentage of bluegrass was also measured.

After three years, there was an 80 to 95 percent decline in ryegrass while the bluegrass increased making up as much as 95% of the grass species population. Bluegrass is able to do this by the way it spreads. Again, this is where the rye grass was grown outside its preferred zones of growth."


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I respectfully disagree with @Stuofsci02. PRG will not completely die off in the winter. You will be left with rye in your stand and it will stand out. Especially with one cultivar of bluegrass that grows even and is all the same colour you will see the p rye. Wash outs are part of the risk with a reno but that is the case even with prg mixed in. If you want a mono stand do a mono stand. You don't want to be left with a lawn that isn't what you set out for and you have to reno it again.


+1. I overseeded with PRG last Fall and patched some bare spots. I can clearly see where those spots are. The grass is clearly different in those areas. I'm sure there has been some die off, but I don't think, even in our climate, you're going to see 100% of the PGR die off.

The reality is wash outs can happen. It can happen before the PRG has a chance to germinate. Weather is a variable we can't control.

I know you have gone back and forth with this for a few weeks. I also know you really want a KBG mono. You won't regret it. It's going to be work, but well worth it next year.


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## 86halibut (Jun 23, 2019)

sounds pointless if you're doing a "mono"


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

Stuofsci02 said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
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> > I added PRG in with my Bewitched.
> ...


True, and yes the museum is amazing, i mean go look at and learn about cool jets/biplanes and then go to the other building that has a giant waterslide waterpark? Lol

Regardless for OP if you want a Monostand but are worried about washout, just buy extra seed, in all honesty you should have atleast 50% extra seed to anyways to fill in spots that dont take anyways.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

FuzzeWuzze said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
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> > FuzzeWuzze said:
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Is there an explanation then why almost every supplier sells mixes...
http://www.oscturf.com/Seed_PremiumFairway.htm
This is not everyone but the Canadian 'partner' of the famous Jacklin seeds.
Why..?


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## Trogdor (Jan 13, 2019)

Gonna try 100% bewitched.

If I encounter difficulties with establishment after repeated efforts then can always try other seed.

Thanks again for all the feedback!!!


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

gergelybg said:


> FuzzeWuzze said:
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> > Stuofsci02 said:
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To answer your specific question, golf courses cant do mono's because one disease could wipe out large portions of their fairways or greens which is bad for business, also if you plant a little bit of everything, no matter what your soil or conditions are like, at least one of them will grow. Besides they cut like every other day, so the turf always looks crisp.

The cynic in me also believes its a good way to get rid of extra seed you have in storage that you need to get rid of asap. I assume thats why most seed mixes change several times a year.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@FuzzeWuzze Everything you mentioned makes a lot of sense.
But I am still puzzled (old whining fart is me). The amount of care a lawn in a golf course may see is way higher than the average Joe may put at home. If a wipe-off is probable in a golf course, then a guess it becomes inevitable for Joe. In another post I had a 'hot' discussion about almost the same. Let aside gold courses, bigbox stores et suppliers (Scott's, Pennington etc) sell mixes...only. To compensate for various conditions I guess. One species is not at home, the other one thrives/survives. It is like a old fashion swiss watch to do mono. It is beautiful, refined, luxury, but stays most of the time in a expensive winding box and is used for special occasion. Maintenance is annual and costs 800$ (Rolex).  Joe will break it in a few weeks at his work... Bottom line, mono is for the connaisseur, and while many here are, the majority want a beautiful lawn and ready to commit to an extra effort. But they have no idea of 800$. Recommending mono to anyone here is a bit of a risky advice.
I am wondering how many in this forum have mono sustained for 5-10 years, without breaking the bank account, being retired or loosing the wife (spending most time in the backyard)? Joe has to be aware of this before throwing some $$$ for this Rolex.
Cheers,
Whining Joe


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

gergelybg said:


> @FuzzeWuzze Everything you mentioned makes a lot of sense.
> But I am still puzzled (old whining fart is me). The amount of care a lawn in a golf course may see is way higher than the average Joe may put at home. If a wipe-off is probable in a golf course, then a guess it becomes inevitable for Joe. In another post I had a 'hot' discussion about almost the same. Let aside gold courses, bigbox stores et suppliers (Scott's, Pennington etc) sell mixes...only. To compensate for various conditions I guess. One species is not at home, the other one thrives/survives. It is like a old fashion swiss watch to do mono. It is beautiful, refined, luxury, but stays most of the time in a expensive winding box and is used for special occasion. Maintenance is annual and costs 800$ (Rolex).  Joe will break it in a few weeks at his work... Bottom line, mono is for the connaisseur, and while many here are, the majority want a beautiful lawn and ready to commit to an extra effort. But they have no idea of 800$. Recommending mono to anyone here is a bit of a risky advice.
> I am wondering how many in this forum have mono sustained for 5-10 years, without breaking the bank account, being retired or loosing the wife (spending most time in the backyard)? Joe has to be aware of this before throwing some $$$ for this Rolex.
> Cheers,
> Whining Joe


What would be the extra cost of a mono vs a mix lawn?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> gergelybg said:
> 
> 
> > @FuzzeWuzze Everything you mentioned makes a lot of sense.
> ...


I don't know. I am not talking about 1st year cost, but overall long-term cost and time for maintenance. Time is money (for me). I don't have a mono. May try it, but will be very aware of mid/long-term possible implication before I start. I am simply arising my personal concerns based on what I read and know. I am hoping someone with real-life long-term experience can share. Let's exclude those that kill all every other season and start over just to try new stuff.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

gergelybg said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
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> > gergelybg said:
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I'm not aware of anyone on here that kills there lawn every other season. The longer you have a lawn including a mono the easier it is to maintain.

The only thing that makes a mono more risky is if you do get a fungus it has no genetic diversity to help prevent it from spreading faster. It doesn't make it any more prone to fungus. The cost is no different than a lawn with multiple cultivar. Also no more time has to be spent on it.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@g-man I am only hoping new members are not simply blown by the pictures of beautiful lawns, but also spend the time to read your journals and have a reality check. Fungus may wipe off a Canadian lawn if you don't break the law, which is another small detail young Canadian padwins should be aware of.

M


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@gergelybg I respect your perspective on this issue. And you raise some interesting points. However, as @SNOWBOB11 mentioned, having a monostand lawn is no more expensive to take care of (short or long term) than a lawn that includes a mix of cultivars.

With regards to fungus, it can wipe out any lawn, regardless of grass type. A monostand is certainly more susceptible to that, but not more prone to developing fungal pressure.

You are right that we have a more difficult time in Canada due to limited resources as a result of several bans. We do however, have options with several suppliers in the US who ship to Canada. There are also several members here that are working hard at going fungicide free.

There are also many levels of lawn care. A new member may not be ready for a golf course like lawn. Most don't realize the hard work and commitment it takes to get to that level. It's up to each individual person how much time and money they are willing to invest.

I happen to know the OP and have met him. He is already spending significant time and money to bring his lawn to another level. I have little doubt that he'll be able to handle a monostand. Especially with help from the wonderful folks here, yourself included. I have read several of your posts and you have a significant amount of knowledge to share. Thanks so much.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@gergelybg I think you should give the cool season guide a good read. It is written to address different levels of lawn care. From the simple using home Depot products to the monostand. The reality check is already in the guide.

We are all here because we want a nice looking lawn just like you want a nice fast car (Audi). You spend the time and money into what you like regardless of how expensive the Audi part are.

The effort and cost of a mono vs a mix of single grass type (tttf) vs a mix of different types (kbg/or) is almost the same. Experience plays a big factor. I strongly suggest to gain experience before a mono. You will see the journals that experienced folks act when they see a problem, vs asking what to do.

Check the last paragraph in this post of a 1 acre monostand. Check the entire journal and last year's. You will clearly see the planning and effort. But you will also see that it is not different than what you do in your home lawn. Mow, fertilize, iron, water.

We will continue to encourage members to do what they like at their desired level passion. We will also show ways to save $ and time to get those goals.

By the way, do you know that a lot of the greens at golf course are mono?


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

I killed the big and tall annual ryegrass by low mowing and tenacity but not the short good looking stuff.

Either way Its not worth it, go for the mono.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Harts @g-man Thank you both for the kind comments. I am sure to have the name of the whining man by now (I may even change it in this forum). I am particularly grateful to all that faced my stubborn opinion with finesse and kind advice. I am also definitely climbing the ladder one step at a time. Going from Scott's seed to 80/20 KBG/PRG Jacklin seeds with my current Reno. I was furiously declining the sales rep advice to add FF to the mix. So I am somehow on your side (doesn't bother me though to challenge mono lol). Considering the countless variables (some controllable and some not) of growing grass, I like to have a solid baseline, but to experiment considering my particular needs and constraints. I am over 150 days/year away from home for work and I am trying to adapt the baseline to that. Believe me, anticipating to have a lawn tier 1 implicates another level of planning in my case.
And yes the average Joe also has other hobbies. I am into detailing cars for fun and this takes time too. So bottom line was (and still is), one pair of shoes doesn't fit all. It just ended up being under a post that doesn't fit the scope of the topic. Even if it may sound strange, I am reading posts from mostly new members, but my focus is to create myself a profile of the person. Information is very limited, but call this a professional handicap. Farming (lawn care to me is) has a lot of science into it, but it will majorly stay an art and emotional endeavour. I travel around NA and coach people to enjoy the journey not focusing on the final destination. And considering the fact all if us on this continent we have the 'hunting' reflex embedded, it is a challenging task. I know, I went way off topic for most of you, but have a different angle to look at this adventure .
Thank you again for all of the effort you guys put inhere.
M


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@gergelybg you hit on a lot of great points. Lawn care should be about the journey. There never really is an end goal for most folks here. This is a passion for most members and certainly a hobby. I imagine most people that find this forum and stick around wish to turn cutting the grass into something more than a typical house chore.

We are all on different levels and what works for one member, may not work for another. Given that you travel as much as you do, your situation is quite unique. I do not travel. I have two young kids and spend just about every night in the lawn once they are in bed. So I typically spend 7-10 hours a week outside. Before my son was born 2 years ago I coached a travel baseball team. We had 4 games every weekend during may and June, then we travelled to the US in July. A typical July saw me south of the border an average of 21 days. I gave that up to spend more time with my family and have since taken up lawn care.

One of the great things about this forum is the different perspectives and experiences we all have; as well as the willingness of everybody to help.

As you say, "one pair of shoes doesn't fit all." There are very few absolutes in lawn care and MANY different ways to achieve the same results.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Harts Thanks for all. Big 2 next days. Scalp, dethatch, clean, compost/sand on, seed etc etc. I only have 48h to do all and leave on short vacation while hoping my DYI irrigation does the job. Weather is with me, sun for the next week on the radar.
M


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Best of luck @gergelybg! Make sure to keep us posted on your progress. And enjoy your vacation :thumbup: :thumbup:


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