# Grass Not What I was Expecting



## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

HI All,

It has been a month since I renovated the yard in front of my house, about 2500 sq ft. I used a mix from a Canadian supplier called Speare Seeds, it was their Deluxe Sun and Shade mix - 25% cert. KBG, 25% cert. creeping red Fescue, 20% cert. PRG, 20% Chewings fescue.



Had I known better I would have avoided the chewings mixture since this area of my yard is 85% full sun. I am kind of kicking myself now, but I was under the gun to get something down and I got a good deal on a 50lb bag so I went for it. :?

Regardless, my issue is the thickness of the PRG blades. The lawn overall has a somewhat coarse textured look that I was not expecting. In fact it is very similar to the previous lawn that had a lot of leftover Kentucky 31. A look that I was wanting to get away from. My questions are:

- As the grass matures and fills out, and begins to experience competition as it thickens will the grass blades become narrower? I would have expected a narrower blade from PRG?? In fact I always remember it being narrower?

- Is it possible this is because it is "SR' PRG? Or just a poor cultivar from this supplier?

- Does the lawn simply need to fill in more to get a less 'coarse' look?

As of right now this feel worse then results I have gotten using Scott's years ago. Since I completely killed off the grass when I overseeded I would rather avoid redoing all that again, but to be honest right now I am not very happy with the results. It is just not the look I wanted.

What I have learned is that going with a custom blend of KBG and PRG is probably my best bet next time around, assuming I cant this to look how I want.

PS.

Ignore the ditch. This is being addressed.

Appreciate the opinions.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Totally understand your concern. But to be completely honest, that reno was an absolute success. That is thick. I would guess 80% of the members on this forum would love to have a lawn that looked like that.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Ya that looks great. Also not sure about the thickness of the blades. Usually PRG is thin isnt it? You 100% sure that is PRG and not something that grew back from before the reno?


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## greengrass (Sep 9, 2018)

Looks like Ky31 grew back. I have some clumps in my yard too that are thick like that.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

Harts said:


> Totally understand your concern. But to be completely honest, that reno was an absolute success. That is thick. I would guess 80% of the members on this forum would love to have a lawn that looked like that.


Thank you. I agree that it came thick, which is good. But do you notice how it has that 'coarse' look reminiscent of KY31?

From a distance, like from the road for example it is not as noticeable as it is to me while I am cutting it. I had a lot of people look at the yard and at me in disgust when I killed it. They thought I was crazy. But I just was not happy with the textured look. Currently, believe it or not, it is currently not a lot better than it was before I hit it with glysophate. So I am trying to figure out whether it just inherit with the mix I chose. Maybe this a lesson in choosing the wrong seed. Let me rephrase that, if I could do it again I *would* choose a different mix.

Likewise, there is still a lot of density yet to occur. IE. Still plenty of visible soil between the grass blades. So I am hoping as the grass thickens and fills out, this helps.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

greengrass said:


> Looks like Ky31 grew back. I have some clumps in my yard too that are thick like that.


Hmm. I see what you mean. But not too sure. I did glyphosate the yard twice over a 2-3 week period. There was zero active growth when I seeded. I am wondering if the seed mix itself either contained a poor variety of seed OR if this is a poor PRG cultivar? Is that possible? Because a large percentage of the noticeable mix, the PRG, is thicker than I am accustomed to seeing.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

ksturfguy said:


> Ya that looks great. Also not sure about the thickness of the blades. Usually PRG is thin isnt it? You 100% sure that is PRG and not something that grew back from before the reno?


That is my experience as well, which is I why I needed to reach out. I am not sure if this is a possible maturity thing, and as the plant becomes better established it will put its energy into root development instead of blade density, and if/when there is additional competition from neighbouring plants, or whether it is a cultivar issue.


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## Mmcgrouty (Sep 21, 2020)

Some of that looks like K31 to me, I planted some behind my shed, and it looks just like that. My prg looks totally different.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

If that is the case, which I am starting to believe now, that is just great!

Assuming that may be the case, is there a way to determine by looking at the seed? I do still have a few pounds of seed left. I would like to be able to tell for sure, because if that is the case I will be reaching out to the supplier. Not that they will probably care or do anything about it, but if I just overseeded my entire lawn with a good portion of K31 that may have been mixed in, I am pretty much screwed at this point.

For reference, the the mix I used is in the first post. I edited to add it after I made the post.

The following pictures are very early spring this year. The light green is new growth coming in. This is not great lighting and as a result is hard to see, but depending on the angle of light, this too had a very coarse looking texture with K31 mixed in (which the lawn was originally years ago) that really affected the uniformity. That said, the remaining K31 was in isolated spots and not spread throughout the whole lawn like it is now (assuming it is not annual rye). Hence why I do not believe the K31 simply regrew in place from before. Given the amount of it, I am inclined to believe that it was somehow mixed in the seed.

Earlier this spring:



Now here is what I would expect from PRG (in bue) and K31 (or annual rye??) in (red). Obviously I only circled a couple. There is a lot more in there. This is taken from an area of my yard where no K31 previously existed. Sorry for the rudimentary drawing.



Thoughts? Opinions?


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## always_creative (Aug 28, 2020)

Is there a chance there is annual Rye in the mix? I used a mix with 8% annual rye on my recent renovation (from my local garden center, awesome seed mix otherwise) that they put in there for quick germination and soil stabilization. It has ugly, light colored wide blades. You may want to sit tight until spring and see if the wide stuff goes away.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

always_creative said:


> Is there a chance there is annual Rye in the mix? I used a mix with 8% annual rye on my recent renovation (from my local garden center, awesome seed mix otherwise) that they put in there for quick germination and soil stabilization. It has ugly, light colored wide blades. You may want to sit tight until spring and see if the wide stuff goes away.


I suppose that is possible, maybe even more likely? I would like to think that is more likely, but honestly I just don't know my grass types well enough. I do however know what PRG 'typically' looks like, and the fatter bladed stuff is not it  However the bag does not indicate any annual rye in the mix. I could understand a little bit of cross contamination, but to this extent is a bit worrisome.


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

the wide blades are the new chewings fescue. The fescue blades only get wider, not narrower. If you want that fine blade texture you will need a seed blend without that fescue and without k31. There may still be some wide bladed TTTF cultivars out there, not sure.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

I would recommend getting in touch with someone at Speare Seeds. They would best be able to help you out with this.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

badtlc said:


> the wide blades are the new chewings fescue. The fescue blades only get wider, not narrower. If you want that fine blade texture you will need a seed blend without that fescue and without k31. There may still be some wide bladed TTTF cultivars out there, not sure.


Thanks for the clarity. I thought Chewings fescue was a fine bladed fescue, like creeping red fescue?

Is chewings fescue like a PRG where it will eventually die off? What I find interesting however, is how predominant it is for the supposedly small percentage that is claimed to be in the bag.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

Harts said:


> I would recommend getting in touch with someone at Speare Seeds. They would best be able to help you out with this.


I actually reached out to them last night with some photos in the hope they can provide some definitive answers. I guess we'll see what they have to say over the next couple days, assuming they respond.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

121x said:


> ... I am wondering if the seed mix itself either contained a poor variety of seed OR if this is a poor PRG cultivar? Is that possible?


From reading the label, none of the grasses in question have a particular cultivar specified. That means that the supplier is free to use any cultivar of that type of grass.

In other words, any kind of KBG is fine, any kind of PRG is fine, etc.

So, think about this for a moment. As the manufacturer, you have various types of seeds available. Some of them are top-notch cultivars that sell for top prices on the market. Others are better-than-average cultivars that are ones that name brand companies like Scotts and Pennington will buy to go in their mixes. Others are below-average cultivars that end up in pasture grass mixes. If you are the manufacturer that needs to put "certified KBG" or "certified PRG" in a bag which is allowed to be any of them, which of those are you going to put in there?

That's right -- buying a seed that is labeled as just "KBG" is almost a guaranteed way to ensure that it will be the least expensive seed that the manufacturer has left. It is likely to have higher weed content, it is likely to be a less desirable cultivar, and it is surely what the manufacturer couldn't sell for any higher price.

So, buying a bag of seed with an unidentified cultivar isn't just like a "grab bag" of cultivars, where you may get lucky and get a great one -- rather, it is almost a guaranteed way to get the least desirable one available.

That said, it's still probably better than a "generic" seed of 30 years ago, as seed growers have come a long way since then, and it can still make for a good lawn. However, if you're looking for a top-notch lawn and are willing to invest the effort to renovate and get there, it's false economy to skimp on seed selection.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> 121x said:
> 
> 
> > ... I am wondering if the seed mix itself either contained a poor variety of seed OR if this is a poor PRG cultivar? Is that possible?
> ...


That is a very good point. I really have nobody to blame but myself at this point. I was mistakenly under the impression that given the price / bag, along with their reputation that I could expect good results. I guess there is a difference from the average homeowner who just wants a green lawn and those like myself who are more particular and going for a certain look.

Now all that said, hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to try and amend the lawn without completely wiping it out. Say with a TTTF and PRG mix, would it be possible to out-compete the existing Chewings Fescue, and potentially less desirable cultivars with some heavy overseeding in spring and fall? I realize it may take a year or two. It would be nice to avoid a complete kill off again. Not sure the wife would approve. She felt the existing grass looked just fine (admittedly it was one of the nicest in our neighbourhood).

Hard lesson to learn. Hoping there is a way I can make the best of the situation, because honestly I am not impressed with the thick bladed crap in there right now.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

ken-n-nancy said:


> 121x said:
> 
> 
> > ... I am wondering if the seed mix itself either contained a poor variety of seed OR if this is a poor PRG cultivar? Is that possible?
> ...


Unfortunately this is what we get in Canada. Most labels do not contain the same type of info as what you guys get in the US.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

@121x In general out competing a grass type in a mix after its established is not really a viable option. Once it's there it's there. If there's no selective herbicide to rid it only gly will work. Your other option is to live with it in ignorant bliss.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Harts said:


> But to be completely honest, that reno was an absolute success. That is thick. I would guess 80% of the members on this forum would love to have a lawn that looked like that.


^^^This.^^^ That lawn looks beautiful! The blades are what I would call a medium width. Nowhere near as wide as KY-31.

I know it's hindsight at this point, but if you like the fine blades, your best bet are the fine fescues like creeping red. Granted that it doesn't like the heat and will turn brown and go dormant when temps rise, well established red fescue will bounce back with cooler temps. There are now finer bladed turf type tall fescues on the market, but you have to do your research to find them. There is no one cultivar that does everything well - fine blades, heat and drought tolerance, etc. You have to decide what is most important to you. There are some good online suppliers including Outside Pride and Hancock Seed.

I am always shaking my head seeing the amount of PRG in seed mixes. Although perennial, it is a short lived bunch grass. The only reason it is put in mixes is it is the fastest to germinate and become established, not to mention it is cheap.


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

121x said:


> Now all that said, hypothetically speaking, if I wanted to try and amend the lawn without completely wiping it out. Say with a TTTF and PRG mix, would it be possible to out-compete the existing Chewings Fescue, and potentially less desirable cultivars with some heavy overseeding in spring and fall? I realize it may take a year or two. It would be nice to avoid a complete kill off again. Not sure the wife would approve. She felt the existing grass looked just fine (admittedly it was one of the nicest in our neighbourhood).
> 
> Hard lesson to learn. Hoping there is a way I can make the best of the situation, because honestly I am not impressed with the thick bladed crap in there right now.


Selectively eliminating one type of grass from a mix is real tough. I tried to get some less desirable fine fescue out of my northern mix in an area where the fine fescue really struggled in the summer. The problem is that even though the fine fescue would get beaten back in the summer, it wouldn't die then, it would just go dormant. Then, in fall it would recover and catch up. In the early spring, it would actually outcompete the slower-to-wake-up KBG. Even my attempts to eliminate it through heavy applications of Tenacity weren't successful.

Mind you, most folks looking at it would just say, "Wow, that looks great." However, I would see the difference and knew what it could be if the fine fescue weren't there. This year, with the northern mix on one side of the driveway and all-KBG on the other side, I decided it was time to apply my favorite Warren Miller quote to the lawn -- "If you don't do it this year, you will be one year older when you do."


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> @121x In general out competing a grass type in a mix after its established is not really a viable option. Once it's there it's there. If there's no selective herbicide to rid it only gly will work. Your other option is to live with it in ignorant bliss.


This just isnt me 

Thanks for not giving me a false sense of hope. I guess I will need to see how it shapes out next year and make a decision from there. Upsetting though because I had the chance to do it right and I feel like I blew it. On the plus side, I have front of house exterior renovations (siding, stone work, flashing, painting, porch), as well as driveway and culvert work planned, so I can use all the traffic and work across the lawn as the excuse to redo the front lawn. And this experience can be used to know what I do NOT want next time around.


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## Justmatson (Apr 4, 2020)

@SNOWBOB11 he mentioned he applied glyphosate twice before seeding, so this grass type came with the new seed.

@121x you do have a beautiful yard, as Harts said, many would be jealous of this yard. 
I believe it was @Harts again said in a difference post we are our own worst critic. It'll never be perfect enough.

I say leave it for a year, enjoy it and if you still feel the same next fall reno it again.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

Hard lesson to learn. Hoping there is a way I can make the best of the situation, because honestly I am not impressed with the thick bladed crap in there right now.
[/quote]
Selectively eliminating one type of grass from a mix is real tough. I tried to get some less desirable fine fescue out of my northern mix in an area where the fine fescue really struggled in the summer. The problem is that even though the fine fescue would get beaten back in the summer, it wouldn't die then, it would just go dormant. Then, in fall it would recover and catch up. In the early spring, it would actually outcompete the slower-to-wake-up KBG. Even my attempts to eliminate it through heavy applications of Tenacity weren't successful.

Mind you, most folks looking at it would just say, "Wow, that looks great." However, I would see the difference and knew what it could be if the fine fescue weren't there. This year, with the northern mix on one side of the driveway and all-KBG on the other side, I decided it was time to apply my favorite Warren Miller quote to the lawn -- "If you don't do it this year, you will be one year older when you do."
[/quote]

Totally understand! Thanks for sharing and providing your feedback!


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Justmatson said:


> @SNOWBOB11 he mentioned he applied glyphosate twice before seeding, so this grass type came with the new seed.


Yes... I know.


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## 121x (Jul 24, 2020)

Justmatson said:


> @SNOWBOB11 he mentioned he applied glyphosate twice before seeding, so this grass type came with the new seed.
> 
> @121x you do have a beautiful yard, as Harts said, many would be jealous of this yard.
> I believe it was @Harts again said in a difference post we are our own worst critic. It'll never be perfect enough.
> ...


Thanks. :thumbup:

In a perfect world, I could enjoy it. It's that part of you that knows what *could have been* that is hard to ignore. The worst part here is several years ago at my old house I did a complete reno on about 3500 sq ft. of corner lot property and it looked killer. I was less knowledgeable at that point than I am now. I lucked out in my seed choice. But that lawn was the best around. Always drew lots of looks and compliments. Thick, lush, dark, weed free. The model example of a lawn.

Now this time I feel like I cheated myself. I kind of rushed into the reno because I was running out of time (based on season but on my own schedule as well) so I went with a seed mix that I felt would work out well. Kind of wish I had delayed for a couple extra weeks to get seed I truly wanted.

Regardless, it is encouraging to hear others think it looks good. I know I have gotten some compliments, but again, the average Joe Homeowner just wants a nice weed free green lawn. They are not as particular as most of us here are.

I will continue to fertilize and care for it and hopefully it matures into something I am satisfied enough with.

Don't have much choice at this point! haha


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## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

Harts said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
> 
> 
> > From reading the label, none of the grasses in question have a particular cultivar specified. That means that the supplier is free to use any cultivar of that type of grass. ...
> ...


Yeah, it occurred to me that the difference may be due to USA seed labeling laws. I'm generally not a fan of laws which over-regulate things, but in this case, having the detail on the seed labels is nice.

Do basically no Canadian seed packages include information on specific cultivars?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@ken-n-nancy some do. I have a PRG mix and it lists the cultivars of PRG. Most, including Speare Seeds only list the percentage of each grass type. The specific cultivar is not.


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## always_creative (Aug 28, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> I'm generally not a fan of laws which over-regulate things, but in this case, having the detail on the seed labels is nice.
> 
> Do basically no Canadian seed packages include information on specific cultivars?


I actually think disclosure laws are a great way to _avoid _over-regulation. Disclosure laws help consumers make business decisions in a crowded marketplace without adding restriction on what a seller can produce. It helps ensure that the market produces high quality products without requiring it.

It's like a nutrition label, few businesses would do it without being told to but it has a big benefit to the end purchaser, and the market encourages producers to voluntarily make better products.


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## Thick n Dense (May 7, 2019)

Harts said:


> Totally understand your concern. But to be completely honest, that reno was an absolute success. That is thick. I would guess 80% of the members on this forum would love to have a lawn that looked like that.


80% is a bit high IMO, maybe 40%... We're the ELITE ! :lol:  :nod: :thumbup:


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## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

121x said:


> Thanks for the clarity. I thought Chewings fescue was a fine bladed fescue, like creeping red fescue?
> 
> Is chewings fescue like a PRG where it will eventually die off? What I find interesting however, is how predominant it is for the supposedly small percentage that is claimed to be in the bag.


I stand corrected. You are right. I confused this with a fescue grass designed for cattle feed.


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

121x said:


> badtlc said:
> 
> 
> > the wide blades are the new chewings fescue. The fescue blades only get wider, not narrower. If you want that fine blade texture you will need a seed blend without that fescue and without k31. There may still be some wide bladed TTTF cultivars out there, not sure.
> ...


Chewings is in fact one of the fine fescues and is the most shade tolerant, but doesn't tolerate sun or heat.

Shade mixes usually include a percentage of all the fine fescues - red, Chewings and hard. Some also include sheep fescue. All except red are bunch grasses and red is there to "knit things together". Some shade mixes include some TTTF. The cheaper ones include PRG.

Most fescue grasses are no longer recommended for cattle feed due to the endophites being toxic to them.


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## Stuofsci02 (Sep 9, 2018)

The bag does not call out the cultivars but the website shows the cultivars used.

http://www.speareseeds.ca/turf-seed


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