# Topsoil for Renovation - Necessary or No?



## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

Hey all,

I see a lot of renovations on this forum where topsoil is spread across the entire lawn surface to create a nice seed bed. Wondering if it is absolutely necessary? I actually would like to do it but not sure if I need to. The place by me has:

*Black Gold Topsoil*
"A high quality screened, organic, compost topsoil."

I am thinking 5 yards for my 2700sqft yard. Thoughts? Seeding 90% TTTF 10% KBG


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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Is your yard bumpy or flat? And are you doing a full reno or just an overseeding?

5 yards may be a bit much - 3 would probably do it unless you have major dips or bumps to fix.

If your soil is already decent-quality you may not need it. Just make sure to loosen up the soil a bit before laying seed so you can still get good contact.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

I wouldn't unless you have really bad grading issues... You would be asking for problems IMHO, exhibit a, from this very forum:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2461

tldr is the poster also from central NJ, says they assume they got triv in their renovation from top soil:



critterdude311 said:


> The place I ordered the soil from claims it is:
> "A high quality screened, organic, compost topsoil. This mixture has the most nutrients and is the richest topsoil."
> 
> It's frustrating because I don't have a way to prove it was the soil, or the seed. I've never seen it anywhere in my yard until this spring though. :roll:


Given they use the same words to describe the soil my guess is you are talking about the same place.....

When I did my renovation I ordered a mix of mason sand and mushroom compost to level spots out. That could be a better option if you don't need to do some leveling and since it is not traditional compost or soil from god knows where, the risk of noxious weed seeds should be minimal.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

Carlson said:


> Is your yard bumpy or flat? And are you doing a full reno or just an overseeding?
> 
> 5 yards may be a bit much - 3 would probably do it unless you have major dips or bumps to fix.
> 
> If your soil is already decent-quality you may not need it. Just make sure to loosen up the soil a bit before laying seed so you can still get good contact.


Yard is fairly flat, I have one major low spot I need to fix. Also, where my fence is, it slightly slopes upward against the fence - i had to add soil last year to make sure there were no gaps between fence and ground. Kind of concerned about that as water can pool up there in the winter after a big storm/snow melt.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

gm560 said:


> I wouldn't unless you have really bad grading issues... You would be asking for problems IMHO, exhibit a, from this very forum:
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=2461
> 
> ...


*Removed name of company - don't want to badmouth them, never had an issue with them

I've used it in the past for small areas (300sqft or less) and never had any problems but sounds better to avoid.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Yup I knew where it was from but didn't want to give any impression I was bad mouthing them. I don't think it is really their fault tbh, just the nature of the beast, bringing in foreign material has some inherent risks. I get my mulch delivered from there and it has always been a good experience. That is also where I got the sand and mushroom compost from and it was good stuff.


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## BBLOCK (Jun 8, 2020)

billw said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I see a lot of renovations on this forum where topsoil is spread across the entire lawn surface to create a nice seed bed. Wondering if it is absolutely necessary? I actually would like to do it but not sure if I need to. The place by me has:
> 
> ...


i just put 5 yards on 2500sq'

it was the exact amount i needed for full coverage. i had a few holes to fill from removing rocks etc.

i also put 5 yards down in the spring. now i have a very level, smooth yard!~


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

gm560 said:


> Yup I knew where it was from but didn't want to give any impression I was bad mouthing them. I don't think it is really their fault tbh, just the nature of the beast, bringing in foreign material has some inherent risks. I get my mulch delivered from there and it has always been a good experience. That is also where I got the sand and mushroom compost from and it was good stuff.


Just edited the post to remove the name - I have always had great experiences as well and get my mulch from there.

You are absolutely right - most likely something out of their control.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

BBLOCK said:


> billw said:
> 
> 
> > Hey all,
> ...


Very tempting to do this, just concerned about weed seed. I have used top soil in the past with no issues so I may roll with it.


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## BBLOCK (Jun 8, 2020)

billw said:


> BBLOCK said:
> 
> 
> > billw said:
> ...


yeah i just kind of decided i was nuking my backyard last minute. i left a few areas that seem to have filled in since spring and i'm using the same seed.

so i didn't fallow i may regret that decision!

but i did put tenacity down.


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## dport (Oct 13, 2019)

what do you all pay for topsoil in august/September? here in southeast PA we pay $25-$32 a yard for screen topsoil. No idea if that is near average or not.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

dport said:


> what do you all pay for topsoil in august/September? here in southeast PA we pay $25-$32 a yard for screen topsoil. No idea if that is near average or not.


$33/yd here and free delivery for over 5 yd.

I believe that's a consistent price - doesn't change based on time of year for us.


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## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

This is an interesting thread and now I'm wondering if bagged top soils Ive used in past years explains some of the weeds I'm dealing with now?!

Now I am thinking of just using a mix of peat moss and sand ... any thoughts?


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## Lawnsnotmygame (Jun 3, 2020)

Question: why can't using a Pre M stop any weeds in the topsoil from sprouting or surviving. Same goes for the 0.02% of weed seed in the seed bag. Won't Pre M just knock those out?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> Question: why can't using a Pre M stop any weeds in the topsoil from sprouting or surviving. Same goes for the 0.02% of weed seed in the seed bag. Won't Pre M just knock those out?


Pre M keeps weed seeds from germinating but if you put it down to prevent the 0.02% weed seed in the bag, it would keep the 99.98% of grass seed from germinating too.

Pre M is helpful no doubt, but it is not 100% by any stretch. A lot of weeds will still make it through.


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## Collywood (Aug 5, 2020)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> Question: why can't using a Pre M stop any weeds in the topsoil from sprouting or surviving. Same goes for the 0.02% of weed seed in the seed bag. Won't Pre M just knock those out?


I had asked the same question recently in a different thread, similar answers to what @gm560 has provided you with. 
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21539&p=308758#p308758


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Top soil is chock full of weeds and rocks. Dont add it unless you have to level.

You dont need to add dirt or material to create a seed bed, in fact, bare soil is a worse seed bed than what is already there, has proven to grow grass, and has some stubble in place to fix the soil in place.


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## Lawnsnotmygame (Jun 3, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Top soil is chock full of weeds and rocks. Dont add it unless you have to level.
> 
> You dont need to add dirt or material to create a seed bed, in fact, bare soil is a worse seed bed than what is already there, has proven to grow grass, and has some stubble in place to fix the soil in place.


But..... Ryan Knorr has like 5 videos where you top dresses the lawn with topsoil. I was all set to do this and now I'm here reading this posts wondering what I can do.


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## DesiLawn (Jul 22, 2020)

gm560 said:


> Lawnsnotmygame said:
> 
> 
> > Question: why can't using a Pre M stop any weeds in the topsoil from sprouting or surviving. Same goes for the 0.02% of weed seed in the seed bag. Won't Pre M just knock those out?
> ...


I am new to lawn care and I find this conversation contradicting each time I come across it. I have heard numerous times that Pre M would keep grass seed from germinating but at the same time people have suggested putting down a starter fert like Scotts' which contains mesotrione herbicide while overseeding. People swear by tenacity on this forum for it works similarly and doesn't affect the seed from germination.

Since, I am planning to overseed my lawn this fall I would like to know which part of the conversation is correct. I believe both are in a sense most herbicides will affect the seed germination but why not recommend mesotrione if it works?

Edit: My bad I just realized Pre-M is a product and not short for pre emergent. :dumb:


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

DesiLawn said:


> gm560 said:
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> 
> > Lawnsnotmygame said:
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No I mean Pre-M to mean pre emergent. Tenacity does have pre emergent qualities but most do not consider it to be a pre emergent in the way they would prodiamine or dimension. Yes you can use tenacity at seeding and it will help keep many weeds out of your reno, but its pre emergent residual is only about 30 days, vs many months for prodiamine or dimension. Also it is more selective than prodiamine or dimension, so many things other than your desired grass seed could slip through if they are present in the soil.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

DesiLawn said:


> gm560 said:
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> 
> > Lawnsnotmygame said:
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People often get confused with Mesotrione (active ingredient in Tenacity and Scott's Starter Fert) and other pre-emergents like Prodiamine and Dimension. Mesotrione can be used to kills weeds and prevent them. It is used as a pre-em at seed down. It doesn't affect grass seed from germinating. It offers 30 days of pre-emergent coverage.

Prodiamine and Dimension are conventional pre-emergents that WILL prevent grass seed from germinating. These cannot be used if dropping seed. Depending on the rate used, you can expect coverage from 3 to 8 months (for Prodiamine). Best times for application are Fall before soil temps reach 70F and Spring before soil temps reach 55F.

Pre-m is the same as pre-em; both of which are short for pre-emergent. It is not a separate product.

If you are over seeding, I would NOT use starter fert as it contains nitrogen, which will force your existing grass to grow and out compete the new seedlings.


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## Lawnsnotmygame (Jun 3, 2020)

gm560 said:


> DesiLawn said:
> 
> 
> > gm560 said:
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So isn't that why you would use tenacity at germination and then a post emergent 30 day's later after establishment?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> HoosierLawnGnome said:
> 
> 
> > Top soil is chock full of weeds and rocks. Dont add it unless you have to level.
> ...


I'm sure he had his reasons why. With anything there are trade offs, you just need to know the risks. if you need to regrade or do serious re leveling, you probably can't avoid bringing in new soil. I think HLG is just saying don't think you need to bring in new top soil just because.... it can actually make things more difficult.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> So isn't that why you would use tenacity at germination and then a post emergent 30 day's later after establishment?


It is why you would use tenacity at seed down. Personally I wouldn't follow up with anything, pre or post emergent other than tenacity on 30 day old grass.

But the point is somewhat moot. If you brought some Poa Triv, or some other other grassy weed seeds in with your top soil Tenacity won't keep it from germinating with your seed and won't control it after the fact... and basically nothing will selectively. This is why we try to keep it out at all costs in the first place.... and why we fallow (water bare soil), so we can eliminate these problems before they are much more difficult to deal with.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

^+1 The main takeaway here is when bringing in soil, it is ideal to do this step much earlier than your planned seed down date and fallow for a few weeks beforehand. This will encourage weeds in the soil to grow, at which point you can use glyphosate to kill them off. Doing 2-3 rounds of this helps drastically reduce the amount of new weeds that pop up.

Usually Tenacity is used at seed down and then again 30 days later, as @gm560 mentioned. Then, 60 days post germination, you would apply prodiamine or dimension as your regular pre-emergent.

Thus the importance of planning your project well in advance so that you can bring in soil, fallow then get your seed down early enough in order to get a fall pre-em application.

Is this always possible? Nope. But doing so give you a higher chance of success.

There are many ways to achieve a great lawn. Taking the short route often leads to more time and money being spent in the future.


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## BH Green (Apr 9, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Top soil is chock full of weeds and rocks. Dont add it unless you have to level.
> 
> You dont need to add dirt or material to create a seed bed, in fact, bare soil is a worse seed bed than what is already there, has proven to grow grass, and has some stubble in place to fix the soil in place.


I agree with this. I ordered 5 yards of "screened high quality" topsoil but didn't use most of it because it was full of clay chunks, rocks, and other junk debris. Turns out I didn't really need it and the grass grew fine.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> But..... Ryan Knorr has like 5 videos where you top dresses the lawn with topsoil. I was all set to do this and now I'm here reading this posts wondering what I can do.


I saw Ryan's video. Bring soil if you need to level, but if you do, fallow it. Kill the weeds it has. Otherwise, just expose your current soil so you get seed to soil contact and keep it moist.


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## Lawnsnotmygame (Jun 3, 2020)

g-man said:


> Lawnsnotmygame said:
> 
> 
> > But..... Ryan Knorr has like 5 videos where you top dresses the lawn with topsoil. I was all set to do this and now I'm here reading this posts wondering what I can do.
> ...


Ok. So, I do have some parts of the lawn that definitely need leveling. Problem: my lawn is only 1200sq ft. I was set to get 1.5 yards topsoil Delivered but now I'm reassessing. Should I just get bagged topsoil if I need to level maybe 1/3 of that space? I can thatch and aerate to get better seed to soil contact rather than fully topdress. Also, my seed is 50/50 KBG as recommended by a local sod company. I honestly feel I set myself up for failure now.


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Lawnsnotmygame said:
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I am not sure the details of your situation. Do you have any more info in another thread? Im sure people will be happy to help you formulate a plan but we will need more background. Maybe start a journal and post some pictures?


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## Agiuliano10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Harts said:


> ^+1 The main takeaway here is when bringing in soil, it is ideal to do this step much earlier than your planned seed down date and fallow for a few weeks beforehand. This will encourage weeds in the soil to grow, at which point you can use glyphosate to kill them off. Doing 2-3 rounds of this helps drastically reduce the amount of new weeds that pop up.
> 
> Usually Tenacity is used at seed down and then again 30 days later, as @gm560 mentioned. Then, 60 days post germination, you would apply prodiamine or dimension as your regular pre-emergent.
> 
> ...


At this point in the year in the northeast what would you say is more important? Fallowing for 2 weeks or getting seed down ASAP?


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## gm560 (Feb 22, 2018)

Agiuliano10 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > ^+1 The main takeaway here is when bringing in soil, it is ideal to do this step much earlier than your planned seed down date and fallow for a few weeks beforehand. This will encourage weeds in the soil to grow, at which point you can use glyphosate to kill them off. Doing 2-3 rounds of this helps drastically reduce the amount of new weeds that pop up.
> ...


You still have time. Fallow for 2 weeks and seed down on LDW.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

Lawnsnotmygame said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > Lawnsnotmygame said:
> ...


Well if you need to level some spots then you will need to bring the soil in. I only have a few spots that need to be leveled, so I will have to bring some in for sure.

I have 3000sqft so 90% of the yard doesn't need leveling and I was going to do it "just because." So my question was more along the lines of is it a best practice to bring in topsoil for all renovations or just leveling. I could have worded it better.

If you have a pickup truck, you can get a half-yard from places that do bulk soil instead of the bags.


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

I would have loved to pick and choose areas that needed levelling. My issue was the bumps were so numerous and widespread, it was much more efficient to just spread 0.75" of topsoil over the whole yard. I was also afraid the grass would look different in the native soil vs new soil. Those were my reasons for covering the whole thing.

I fallowed for roughly 3 weeks (watered once per day, unless it rained). I could count on two hands the number of weeds that came up in the new soil. Thought I was doing something wrong, maybe didn't water enough. Ironically, more weeds came up in native soil areas that hadn't been levelled yet.

I used Tenacity at seed down but my biggest fear is potentially lurking poa triv seeds I may have missed.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Agiuliano10 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > ^+1 The main takeaway here is when bringing in soil, it is ideal to do this step much earlier than your planned seed down date and fallow for a few weeks beforehand. This will encourage weeds in the soil to grow, at which point you can use glyphosate to kill them off. Doing 2-3 rounds of this helps drastically reduce the amount of new weeds that pop up.
> ...


What type of grass are you planting? If KBG, skip the soil and seed now. If prg and or tttf I would fallow for a week and get your seed down by end of month. Earlier is always better IMO.


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## Agiuliano10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Harts said:


> Agiuliano10 said:
> 
> 
> > Harts said:
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60 KBG 20 prg 20 tttf


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@Agiuliano10 perhaps somebody from your area can speak better to this than I. Say you put soil down this weekend and fallowed for 2 weeks, that takes you up to around Sept. 5/6. Putting seed down then may or may not be viable - a lot of your success is going to depend on weather and how quickly frost sets in for you. For me, I would want to give my seed approx. 8 weeks to establish in ideal soil temps. Especially KBG which "could" take up to 2-3 weeks to germinate. That doesn't leave much time for your new grass to establish before the cold weather comes.

Going that late would also likely prevent you from being able to put down a pre-emergent app this Fall.

In Southern Ontario, our frost is typically around the middle of October. Our ideal seeding window is right now (in fact most guys have seeded 2 weeks ago). Too hot is better than too cold.

If your average frost doesn't occur until November, you may be okay to seed in Sept. Guys have done it and guys have been successful.

When I give advice, I always err on the side of caution. I know how much work planting seed is - all the prep, the watering, fertilizing at the right time, cutting at the right time etc. It's a lot of work to take a gamble that the weather is going to cooperate into the Fall. So I always lean to planting earlier. This doesn't mean you can't wait until Sept. to seed. It just means your success rate may decrease as a result.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Top soil is for major levelling. Sand and peat is for fine tuning.

You can do your own sifting, too.

Buy a screen and nail it to a 2x4 frame, let the dirt dry out, sift as you add it.

But that doesnt get rid of all the weeds you'll add.

You can always level it with sand next spring sfter you grow it in this fall.

Just depends how uneven it is


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

HoosierLawnGnome said:


> Top soil is for major levelling. Sand and peat is for fine tuning.
> 
> You can do your own sifting, too.
> 
> ...


Well now it looks like I'll need topsoil for some major leveling. The flooding pictured below hasn't happened in about a year and a half so I thought I was in the clear after the hurricane a few weeks ago and didn't get any flooding from that.

We had this vinyl fence put in, and the contractor piled dirt up against the fence to cover up the gap between the fence and the ground resulting in:

1. Loss of water flow into my neighbor's yard
2. A slight incline leading up to the fence, so the water pools in that corner. The hump where the trees are doesn't help either, but that was there prior to us moving in.

There is a downspout that exhausts at the top of this hill and I think this results in the water traveling to the area. Maybe i can reroute it to flow into the front street.


This picture shows the slight incline as well from another angle:


Not sure if I should just remove the soil where the incline is, or add more soil to the low spot? Good thing I haven't dropped seed yet.


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## Agiuliano10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Harts said:


> @Agiuliano10 perhaps somebody from your area can speak better to this than I. Say you put soil down this weekend and fallowed for 2 weeks, that takes you up to around Sept. 5/6. Putting seed down then may or may not be viable - a lot of your success is going to depend on weather and how quickly frost sets in for you. For me, I would want to give my seed approx. 8 weeks to establish in ideal soil temps. Especially KBG which "could" take up to 2-3 weeks to germinate. That doesn't leave much time for your new grass to establish before the cold weather comes.
> 
> Going that late would also likely prevent you from being able to put down a pre-emergent app this Fall.
> 
> ...


Appreciate all of the advice. I'm thinking like you and leaning towards seed down earlier. Tenacity should keep things under control with the top soil and I can address weeds later. Getting seed down is most important to me right now to be able to get a Pre M app in the fall


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@Agiuliano10 I think that's a smart and safe plan. Good luck. Make sure you start a journal (if you haven't yet) and chart your progress.


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## HoosierLawnGnome (Sep 28, 2017)

Looks like the dripline for the roof.

That area looks pretty level other than that slight dip at the roof dripline. Every yard has dips like that.

Just get seed down and press it into the soil well.

If you add topsoil to that drip line and get a decent rain, it will erode the new soil much easier than the existing soil anyways.

Check this out. Guess where the germination sucks and i have a few weeds? Where i added topsoil to level and it washed out.

See how well it germinated in the stubble on native soil, even with a slope?


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## naetoile (Aug 18, 2020)

Harts said:


> Agiuliano10 said:
> 
> 
> > Harts said:
> ...


@Harts what would you suggest for Blainville (north of Montreal) ......I have applied RoundUp on most parts of my lawn, and thought I absolutely needed to top soil everything! I have topsoil (left over from planting) sitting on my driveway covered, and was planning on ordering more. My lawn does need serious leveling in some areas. I'm planning on using a mix blend grass seed from my local nursery. It's 48% perennial rye / 30% fescue and 20% KBG (it's the best sun mix I could find near me!)

I still need to scalp, detach, and aerate, so I don't think I have time to lay top soil and fallow. Right?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@naetoile I wouldn't think you have time to fallow the soil. You really want to get your seed down by next weekend at the latest (end of month).

Are you sure you need to aerate AND dethatch?


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## naetoile (Aug 18, 2020)

Harts said:


> @naetoile I wouldn't think you have time to fallow the soil. You really want to get your seed down by next weekend at the latest (end of month).
> 
> Are you sure you need to aerate AND dethatch?


@Harts Here are some pictures of my reno (no pic of my front lawn, but I completely killed the front lawn)

This is a new home for me, and the previous homeowners didn't do a THING to the yard. When I moved in last summer there were 4 foot weeds everywhere! The section near the cedars in the picture has really poor drainage.

I figured it would help dethatching along with core aerating, no?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

You're going to get mixed opinions on this. I feel aeration is only necessary if your soil is compacted. And I mean a serious issue.

I would power rake and scalp your lawn prior to seeding.

I also just replied to your other thread.


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## naetoile (Aug 18, 2020)

Harts said:


> You're going to get mixed opinions on this. I feel aeration is only necessary if your soil is compacted. And I mean a serious issue.
> 
> I would power rake and scalp your lawn prior to seeding.
> 
> I also just replied to your other thread.


In my backyard I do think it's really compacted. It soggs up pretty badly along the line of the cedars. I think there might but a little fungus there as well, but I'll deal with that next year, right now I've got to get the seed down!

So since I'll be renting the aerator for that section, I figure just do the whole thing.


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## billw (Jul 19, 2020)

@HoosierLawnGnome just checked out your golf course, looks awesome. The fact that you're getting great germination on native soil is steering me to avoid topsoil and seed on my native soil as well.

I think that fixing where my gutters runoff will be the best course of action in regards to fixing the area that floods.

It was completely gone about 15 minutes after I took the picture. In the past, it would take about 3 days. Maybe the power rake made some room for the water to escape, I have no idea.


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