# Ware's Winter Overseeding Project | 2017-18



## Ware

Winter overseeding a bermudagrass lawn with perennial ryegrass (PRG) is something that has always piqued my interest, so now that I have a proper irrigation system I have decided to give it a shot. Not wanting to bite off more than I can chew, I decided my 2,000 ft2 back yard would be a nice place to experiment this year... that way if it turns into an epic failure I will be the only one who has to look at it . I will also be able to compare the spring transition to my non-overseeded front lawn.

*The Plan*​
I started by reading everything I could get my hands on about the process, and I also reached out to a local turfgrass science professor to get any regional-specific advice he had. Turns out he overseeds his own lawn with PRG each fall, and had this to offer:


Seed in late September at a rate of about 15lbs per thousand (more on this below). 
Use a drop spreader in multiple directions to ensure uniform coverage, then go over the lawn lightly with a leaf rake to knock the seed down to the soil surface.
After seeding it is extremely important to keep the surface soil moist. Irrigate 0.1" mid morning and again mid afternoon.
Once the seed has germinated (usually 4-7 days) you can irrigate once a day, but heavier (0.15 - 0.2").
Apply 2 lbs of N to the lawn 2-4 weeks after germination and you will be all set.

One of the things that concerned me was the spring transition back to bermuda, but he said it would be a snap if I spray the PRG with MSM herbicide once the bermuda is greening up in the spring. He said the MSM is slow acting, so the transition is gradual, and would help me avoid a completely brown lawn. I think Celsius and/or Certainty would probably work just as well, but I have some time to make that decision.

*The Seed*​
For seed I went with Champion GQ from Seed Research of Oregon. It's easy to get lost in all the different varieties/blends available, so I just went with this because it appeared to be a decent choice for overseeding bermuda and it was on sale at Hancock Seed. If I was establishing a new cool season lawn, I probably would have spent more time on this, but I will just be killing it in the spring. :lol:








The recommended winter overseed rates on the Champion GQ specification sheet are as follows - note that these rates are significantly higher than the rates for establishing a new cool season lawn:


Golf greens: 30 lbs per thousand
*Golf fairways and tees: 10-16 lbs per thousand*
Sports fields and golf roughs: 6-10 lbs per thousand

These tiered rates appear to be based on density requirements - the lower the HOC, the more density you need. I plan to mow the PRG around 0.75", so I will be using the overseed rate for golf tees and fairways. I will adjust my HOC as necessary, but my thought is if my dormant bermuda is around 0.5", I will want to mow the PRG a little higher to drown out the brown grass.

After reading Pete's Renovation thread, I decided to order a packet of Soil Moist Seed Coat. I'm not overly concerned about keeping the ground moist in the small area I'm working with, but decided it would be cheap insurance. :thumbup:

*The Prep*​
Prior to overseeding, I plan to do a light verticut and slightly reduce my HOC in an effort to open up the dense bermuda canopy a little. I think this will make it a little easier get the seed in contact with the ground. Alternatively, I read that this is also a good time to core aerate if you wanted to.

Being a big fan of Plant Growth Regulator (PGR) and its many benefits, I had noticed the label specifically addresses using it to slow bermuda growth prior to overseeding in the fall to enhance establishment of the cool season grass, so I will definitely be timing my upcoming PGR applications accordingly:








I will also not be making any additional fertilizer apps to the back yard before overseeding, and most importantly *NO* fall pre-emergent app, as it would prevent germination of the PRG.

*The Calendar*​
I have some scheduling conflicts in late September that will require me to be away from home, and I want to make sure I am close during the twice a day watering period, so depending on the rain forecast my tentative plan is to overseed sometime between Sept 16-20. The average highs/lows on those dates for my location are 84°/61°F. If that doesn't work out, I will likely defer to the window of Sept 30 - Oct 3. Average highs/lows on those dates look more like 80°/56°F.

I have about month to work out the final details, but I'm really excited to see how this goes! With any luck, it won't just be the Aussies posting pictures of their warm season lawns on TLF this winter! :thumbup:


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## wardconnor

Awesome.....Who would have thought? I can not wait to watch this happen. Please be sure to publicly document this for our eager eyes.


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## Redtenchu

Awesome, I'm excited to follow this project!

I'm sure, like most things you do, it'll be a yuuge success!


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## Bunnysarefat

Alright, awesome. Paint your front lawn and ask your neighbors which one looks better :lol:


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## dfw_pilot

Uh . . . doomed to fail. Texasweed says so.

On a serious note, thanks for the write up - I can't wait to see the progress.


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## Spammage

Looking forward to the results as well.


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## Ware

wardconnor said:


> Awesome.....Who would have thought? I can not wait to watch this happen. Please be sure to publicly document this for our eager eyes.


^^^ This guy's lawn is what really pushed me over the edge to try this. :thumbup:



Bunnysarefat said:


> Alright, awesome. Paint your front lawn and ask your neighbors which one looks better :lol:


That's not a bad idea. I've also been tempted to try the Green Lawnger. I think it would be less work.


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## Bunnysarefat

So if you're not happy with the results and don't want to do it again the following winter, will the MSM completly kill the PRG or will it try to creep back the next season?


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## Ware

Bunnysarefat said:


> So if you're not happy with the results and don't want to do it again the following winter, will the MSM completly kill the PRG or will it try to creep back the next season?


It should knock it out like any other *grassy weed* (no offense wardconnor). :lol:

But yeah, I would hope for a complete kill in the spring whether I decide to overseed again or not.


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## g-man

What is going on?? Ward wants a bermuda looking lawn in Utah and Ware wants to stripe a cool season lawn in Arkansas. Couldn't you two just trade houses?

I'm interested in how this will look. Any idea on the hoc after germination?


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## Ware

g-man said:


> What is going on?? Ward wants a bermuda looking lawn in Utah and Ware wants to stripe a cool season lawn in Arkansas. Couldn't you two just trade houses?
> 
> I'm interested in how this will look. Any idea on the hoc after germination?


Only on TLF... :lol:

My bermuda HOC is 1/2", so I'm thinking I'll need to cut the PRG in the 5/8 - 3/4" range to drown out the bermuda a little.


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## Pete1313

Subscribed! Can't wait to see the project! Although I think Ware will love the way PRG stripes so much, he will sell his house, move north, and join the "Cool" side!


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## wardconnor

Pete1313 said:


> Subscribed! Can't wait to see the project! Although I think Ware will love the way PRG stripes so much, he will sell his house, move north, and join the "Cool" side!


^^^What he said.

Ware.... You my friend are on a slippery slope there. Your about to embark on something possibly very additive... Remember when you did yourfirst sand leveling project? or when you acquired your first reel mower? You were hooked right away.

I'm afraid to say that you are heading down that same path.


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## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
> 
> 
> 
> So if you're not happy with the results and don't want to do it again the following winter, will the MSM completly kill the PRG or will it try to creep back the next season?
> 
> 
> 
> It should knock it out like any other *grassy weed* (no offense wardconnor). :lol:
> 
> But yeah, I would hope for a complete kill in the spring whether I decide to overseed again or not.
Click to expand...

Awesome thread!! should be fun to follow. I'd be surprised if the perennial rye came back even without the use of MSM, unless you get a super mild summer next year. I believe the MSM is more to help him transition. Without it, the rye wouldn't die off until June. At least in houston, July, August, and September heat is enough to completely wipe it out.


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## wardconnor

Ware said:


> It should knock it out like any other *grassy weed* (no offense wardconnor). :lol:


That's it.... I'm offended. Maybe you could punish me for taking offense by restricting me from using the Private Message feature on TLF?

Believe me.... I deal with my fair share if nuisance grassy weeds.


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## wardconnor

Ware said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is going on?? Ward wants a bermuda looking lawn in Utah and Ware wants to stripe a cool season lawn in Arkansas. Couldn't you two just trade houses?
> 
> 
> 
> Only on TLF... :lol:
Click to expand...

Just wait until Pete gets going. He's going to be mowing low as well. Its going to look awesome. Nice wide stripes with his triplex.


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## Ware




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## Colonel K0rn

I like the No Poa symbol  I actually ordered another 10# of seed from them today. It'll be interesting to see how your overseeding project turns out.


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## Jericho574

What are you expecting in terms of water requirements once fully germinated?


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## Ware

Jericho574 said:


> What are you expecting in terms of water requirements once fully germinated?


I'm not sure, but we usually see a decent amount rainfall during those months...


Oct - 4.32"
Nov - 4.44"
Dec - 3.31"
Jan - 2.81"
Feb - 2.76"
Mar - 3.85"


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## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


>


Awesome, I'm just buying the stuff from Home Depot call Fairway supreme.


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## Jericho574

Ware said:


> Jericho574 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What are you expecting in terms of water requirements once fully germinated?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, but we usually see a decent amount rainfall during those months...
> 
> 
> Oct - 4.32"
> Nov - 4.44"
> Dec - 3.31"
> Jan - 2.81"
> Feb - 2.76"
> Mar - 3.85"
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I usually justify my summer water usage by having a winter. If I'm needing to water as much as I do now, then I'd probably have to pass.

On another note, how do you feel about having a green lawn in the winter? I threw the idea out to the wife a few months ago and her response was that i'd look odd when everyone else's yard is brown.


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## Ware

Jericho574 said:


> Gotcha. I usually justify my summer water usage by having a winter. If I'm needing to water as much as I do now, then I'd probably have to pass.
> 
> On another note, how do you feel about having a green lawn in the winter? I threw the idea out to the wife a few months ago and her response was that i'd look odd when everyone else's yard is brown.


Evapotransipiration is influenced by solar radiation, temperature, humidity and wind (among other factors). Because solar radiation and temperature peak in the summer, I don't expect the water requirements to be as intense. I do plan to shut my irrigation system down.

There are actually some green yards in my neighborhood during the winter - mostly henbit, but they're green (and purple) :lol:. Mowing in the winter will be a commitment, but if done right, I think it can look stunning:


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## Pete1313

Based on the average monthly ET rates in your area, I agree that you won't need much irrigation once it is established. Unless you have an unusually warm or dry winter.


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## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Based on the average monthly ET rates in your area, I agree that you won't need much irrigation once it is established. Unless you have an unusually warm or dry winter.


Very cool - where did you run that? I'm actually closer to Fort Smith and would like to see that graph.


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## Pete1313

This one is from the weather station at Fort Smith Regional. It is a screen shot from my Hydrawise App.


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## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> Mowing in the winter will be a commitment, but if done right, I think it can look stunning:


Definitely a commitment, but will look stunning. U might not want to transition back lol


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## Ware

Bringing his conversation over from another thread...



wardconnor said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a good daily high/low temperature window that is best for seeding PRG? And are there daily high temps you would absolutely want to avoid with new PRG?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a good question... And one I do not have an answer for.
> 
> I'd say stay away from the 90s and you'll be good. No getting down into the high 30s. This is all my guess though.
> 
> Ideal would probably be between 50 and 75 for seeding. I'm currently dipping into mid 40s at night and all is well. My highs are ranging from 73 to 85 in next 10 days.
> 
> What is your temp range next 10?
Click to expand...

A cold front is moving in overnight, so my next 10 looks like highs in the low-mid 80's and around 60F at night.

The earliest seed date I have marked on my calendar is Sept 16. If that weekend/following week doesn't look good, I will probably divert to the 30th.

My Bermuda has started to slow down a little, but not a lot. I think I would like to be at a stage where I can keep the Bermuda under ~5/8" from seed down until I can start mowing it again. Any idea how many days that will be?


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## wardconnor

I'd say around 10 days would be good. I planted some seed in raw soil 10 days ago and it is looking pretty good. It's not something I'd mow right now being that it's in raw soil. If it was an overseed I'd mow.

That area in front that I did the over seed video... I mowed that today because I couldn't take it any longer. It's been 7 days since I put the seed down. I'm sure it germinate some, maybe not every seed but it was looking good and I was impatient. People were making jokes telling me my lawn was long.

Wait as long as possible but I think you'll see a noticeable difference in 7 days. I'd do an app of PGR then seed the next day.

I can't wait to see your project progress and unfold.


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## Concretestorm

Ware
My wife (who hates my daily mowing) asked me to overseed with ARG. I told her I needed a break from mowing, and she said "but our pasture will be green and our yard will be brown". 
Guess what.......once it goes dormant, I'm going to paint it!


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## Redtenchu

Concretestorm said:


> Guess what.......once it goes dormant, I'm going to paint it!


DFW did that once, it looked really good!


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## Concretestorm

Redtenchu said:


> Concretestorm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what.......once it goes dormant, I'm going to paint it!
> 
> 
> 
> DFW did that once, it looked really good!
Click to expand...

That is good news, because I'm buying the paint this week


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## Ware

Concretestorm said:


> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Concretestorm said:
> 
> 
> 
> Guess what.......once it goes dormant, I'm going to paint it!
> 
> 
> 
> DFW did that once, it looked really good!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That is good news, because I'm buying the paint this week
Click to expand...

Can't wait to see it. :thumbsup:

Have you decided which product you are using? I think dfw used Green Lawnger.


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## SGrabs33

Ware said:


> Concretestorm said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> DFW did that once, it looked really good!
> 
> 
> 
> That is good news, because I'm buying the paint this week
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Can't wait to see it. :thumbsup:
> Have you decided which product you are using? I think dfw used Green Lawnger.
Click to expand...

Agreed, very interested to see how this looks!


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## Ware

I sprayed PGR today - about 3 weeks since my last app. I'm still seeing highs in the 90's, but expecting cooler weather by the end of the week. I'm tentatively planning on seeding next weekend, but will make that call later this week. :thumbup:


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## ahartzell

Ware said:


> I sprayed PGR today - about 3 weeks since my last app. I'm still seeing highs in the 90's, but expecting cooler weather by the end of the week. I'm tentatively planning on seeding next weekend, but will make that call later this week. :thumbup:


Yea we had a little slump in temps, but it's jumped back up and still pretty warm. My bermuda is still liking the weather :lol:


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## OutdoorEnvy

Cool thread and project! Looking forward to seeing how this goes full circle with the winter look and then how the Bermuda responds in the Spring. Only trying it in the backyard is pretty funny. If it's a huge success you can always make the Halloweens trick-or-treaters come to the backyard for the candy bowl so everyone has to see it!


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## Ware

Today was the day. I almost scrubbed because the temperatures are going to be a little higher than I would like this week, but I leave town for work again next week, so I wanted to go ahead and get this show started.








This is what it looked like last week at 1/2":








Today I took it down to 0.4", verticut, then cut again at 3/8". I also sprayed a little PGR on it for good measure. This was a more aggressive approach than I was planning on, but I decided to do this to compensate for the higher temps this week. Basically there is this germination/establishment period (maybe 2 weeks?) where I'm going to want to keep the mower off of it, and I don't want the bermuda to get out of hand during that time. I don't know if this was the best plan, but it's what I did. :thumbup:








It actually didn't look _completely_ terrible at 3/8":








To spread the seed I used a Scotts drop spreader and made about a million passes in different directions. I sowed the edges (the 4-6" next to fence, etc where the spreader wouldn't drop) by hand. I lightly raked it in two directions, then rolled it with my GM1600 drum in two directions. It was impossible to get all the seed down into the canopy, but I'm guessing hoping that's why the overseed rates are so obscene.

Before raking/rolling:








After raking/rolling:








This is what it looked like before I turned the sprinklers on this evening:








Now the goal is to keep the surface soil moist while the seed is germinating this week. I am going to play it by ear, but will likely be running the sprinklers for a few minutes 2-3x per day (~0.2" total per day). Your prayers for the success of this project are appreciated. :thumbup:


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## Iriasj2009

Awesome! The temps look fine to me. When I overseeded 2 years ago, the temps were around the same. Humidity is your enemy right now. I had a bit a fungus issue but Once the temps started to fall then the rye Took off. 
From the pics, the Bermuda still looks thick but i understand that you didn't want to go to aggressive when prepping so I'm curious to see how well the rye comes up. Good luck!!!


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## Colonel K0rn

Leave it to Ware to level his yard with grass seed. It's the new thing!

Seriously, it looks great, and I'm interested to see how this progresses, considering that I'll be doing the same next year.


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## Ware

Colonel K0rn said:


> Leave it to Ware to level his yard with grass seed...


Ha, that's not too far from the truth! It was A LOT of seed. :lol:


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## HoosierHound

Hi Ware, I found this paper interesting and thought I'd share it with you. Key points are that the allelopathic qualities of PRG did not affect spring recovery of bermuda, and that using a sulfonylurea herbicide (such as Certainty) helps achieve a more complete transition from PRG to bermuda in the spring. The author also recommends using an "intermediate" ryegrass (hybrid of annual and perennial ryegrass) rather than a perennial ryegrass.

Allelopathic Effects and Removal of Overseaded Ryegrass on Bermudagrass


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## Ware

Cool - thanks for sharing, HoosierHound! :thumbup:

I unexpectedly got over an inch of rain today, but it was over the course of about 6.5 hours, so I don't think the seed washed away. I'm hoping it actually helped wash more of it down into the dense Bermuda canopy. I guess I will know more in about a week.


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## ken-n-nancy

Seems to me it would practically take a flood to was seed out of that Bermuda canopy! I'm sure the rain probably helped get more of the seed down to the soil, and can't imagine it washed much of it away unless you actually had standing water.


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## Ware

3 days in and really no changes - even with the bermuda, which is good. :thumbup:


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## Ware

And here I was questioning the cool season guys and their "flashlight checks"... :dunno:


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## Ware

I'm resisting the urge to go mix up some Certainty. :rofl:


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## Pete1313

Flashlight checks are real!..  
Congrats on the babies!


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## Ware

Just short of 5 days... I dropped seed on Sunday afternoon. Most are between 0.5-1" tall. :smile:


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## Pete1313

What is your plan for the first couple of mows? What will you use, and HOC?


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## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> What is your plan for the first couple of mows? What will you use, and HOC?


I'm not sure, and open to suggestions. I have to make a trip down to Austin on Monday, so I probably won't put a mower on it until Thursday afternoon at the earliest.


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## csbutler

Ware said:


> Just short of 5 days... I dropped seed on Sunday afternoon. Most are between 0.5-1" tall. :smile:


  

:thumbup:

So excited for this.


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## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> ...What will you use, and HOC?


The mower will be my GM1600. I'm hoping for a HOC in the 5/8 to 3/4 range. The plan is just slightly higher than the dormant bermuda as long as it looks okay.


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## Pete1313

What is the GM's max hoc?


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## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> What is the GM's max hoc?


It's supposed to be 1.25" for the GM1600. The GM1000 is 1".

_The Greensmaster® 1600 provides greater performance on and around the greens - offering you more versatility with one walk greensmower. Its 66 cm cutting width and extended height of cut range make this mower perfect for tee, apron and other formal turf areas, even large area greens. A dimpled traction drum provides better traction for off-greens cutting._​


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## Pete1313

Ware said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the GM's max hoc?
> 
> 
> 
> It's supposed to be 1.25" for the GM1600. The GM1000 is 1".
> 
> _The Greensmaster® 1600 provides greater performance on and around the greens - offering you more versatility with one walk greensmower. Its 66 cm cutting width and extended height of cut range make this mower perfect for tee, apron and other formal turf areas, even large area greens. A dimpled traction drum provides better traction for off-greens cutting._​
Click to expand...

I would cut it at the high end of the HOC for a couple cuts following the 1/3rd rule and then bring it down. On my KBG, I did the first couple cuts at 1.125" and now I will be dropping it down to .75". My thoughts were to give the seedlings a few more days to establish before exposing them to the weight of the mower. Also at the higher HOC it will give you an extra day or 2 between mowings so you're not constantly on the young turf. Just don't keep it high too long, I would quickly bring it down after those first couple mows.


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## RockyMtnLawnNut

Pete1313 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the GM's max hoc?
> 
> 
> 
> It's supposed to be 1.25" for the GM1600. The GM1000 is 1".
> 
> _The Greensmaster® 1600 provides greater performance on and around the greens - offering you more versatility with one walk greensmower. Its 66 cm cutting width and extended height of cut range make this mower perfect for tee, apron and other formal turf areas, even large area greens. A dimpled traction drum provides better traction for off-greens cutting._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would cut it at the high end of the HOC for a couple cuts following the 1/3rd rule and then bring it down. On my KBG, I did the first couple cuts at 1.125" and now I will be dropping it down to .75". My thoughts were to give the seedlings a few more days to establish before exposing them to the weight of the mower. Also at the higher HOC it will give you an extra day or 2 between mowings so you're not constantly on the young turf. Just don't keep it high too long, I would quickly bring it down after those first couple mows.
Click to expand...

This is what I did when I overseeded my KBG with PRG this year. I am cutting now at 0.75", but I started at about 1.25" for the first few mows. I took it down fairly quickly after that. I used a push reel that I had for the first few mows, but I think it would've handled the powered mower just fine. It's just scary since the PRG looks so delicate at first. I have found it to really be pretty wear tolerant though.


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## g-man

Congrats ware on having a cool season lawn. I think we should move this thread to the cool season side.


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## Ware

g-man said:


> Congrats ware on having a cool season lawn. I think we should move this thread to the cool season side.


Ha, but then they might not let me come back over here in the spring.


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## wardconnor

g-man said:


> Congrats ware on having a cool season lawn. I think we should move this thread to the cool season side.


what he said


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## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> I would cut it at the high end of the HOC for a couple cuts following the 1/3rd rule and then bring it down. On my KBG, I did the first couple cuts at 1.125" and now I will be dropping it down to .75". My thoughts were to give the seedlings a few more days to establish before exposing them to the weight of the mower. Also at the higher HOC it will give you an extra day or 2 between mowings so you're not constantly on the young turf. Just don't keep it high too long, I would quickly bring it down after those first couple mows.





RockyMtnLawnNut said:


> This is what I did when I overseeded my KBG with PRG this year. I am cutting now at 0.75", but I started at about 1.25" for the first few mows. I took it down fairly quickly after that. I used a push reel that I had for the first few mows, but I think it would've handled the powered mower just fine. It's just scary since the PRG looks so delicate at first. I have found it to really be pretty wear tolerant though.


Good plan - thanks guys! :thumbsup:


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## J_nick

Ware said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats ware on having a cool season lawn. I think we should move this thread to the cool season side.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, but then they might *will* not let me come back over here in the spring.
Click to expand...

There I fixed it for you


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## Pete1313

J_nick said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats ware on having a cool season lawn. I think we should move this thread to the cool season side.
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, but then they might *will* not let me come back over here in the spring.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There I fixed it for you
Click to expand...

I think Ware is secretly doing this project because he envies cool season turf and knows it is the best looking turf! :nod:


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## Iriasj2009

Pete1313 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the GM's max hoc?
> 
> 
> 
> It's supposed to be 1.25" for the GM1600. The GM1000 is 1".
> 
> _The Greensmaster® 1600 provides greater performance on and around the greens - offering you more versatility with one walk greensmower. Its 66 cm cutting width and extended height of cut range make this mower perfect for tee, apron and other formal turf areas, even large area greens. A dimpled traction drum provides better traction for off-greens cutting._​
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I would cut it at the high end of the HOC for a couple cuts following the 1/3rd rule and then bring it down. On my KBG, I did the first couple cuts at 1.125" and now I will be dropping it down to .75". My thoughts were to give the seedlings a few more days to establish before exposing them to the weight of the mower. Also at the higher HOC it will give you an extra day or 2 between mowings so you're not constantly on the young turf. Just don't keep it high too long, I would quickly bring it down after those first couple mows.
Click to expand...

I'm guilty in liking PRG more than Bermuda haha. I used my mcclane whenever I overseeded at 5/8" from the get go with no issues but I like the idea of starting high and then lowering the height. I'm thinking of doing the same.


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## g-man

Ware should also change his profile.


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## wardconnor

:nod: :nod: :nod:


Pete1313 said:


> J_nick said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, but then they might *will* not let me come back over here in the spring.
> 
> 
> 
> There I fixed it for you
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think Ware is secretly doing this project because he envies cool season turf and knows it is the best looking turf! :nod:
Click to expand...

 :nod: :nod: :nod:


----------



## Ware




----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> :nod: :nod: :nod:
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think Ware is secretly doing this project because he envies cool season turf and knows it is the best looking turf! :nod:
> 
> 
> 
> :nod: :nod: :nod:
Click to expand...

Ha, who wouldn't want a reel low lawn, à la Connor and Pete, during the months when there is no risk of heat exhaustion? :lol:


----------



## MasterMech

I have to admit that I ran out into the lawn with a flashlight more than once waiting for my ARG to pop up. Today I was rewarded with babies appearing in some of the bare areas. But nothing tall enough to peek up over the 2" Bermuda yet.

Looking great Ware! We used PRG on tees and fairways up north, it'll take a .5" cut, for sure no problems at .750".


----------



## Ware

I'm thinking about mowing it this afternoon - a lot of it is already about 1.5" tall. If I don't mow today, it will be Thursday (4 days) before I can mow it. Thoughts on taking it down to ~1" with the reel mower?


----------



## Pete1313

I would. Especially since you can't mow again until Thursday. :thumbsup:

And we will need after pics please!..


----------



## J_nick

Pete1313 said:


> I would. Especially since you can't mow again until Thursday. :thumbsup:
> 
> And we will need after pics please!..


+1000


----------



## Iriasj2009

Mow it!!! You'll be fine. I like how evenly it came in.


----------



## Eric

Excellent job, I've pretty much convinced myself moving forward I'm going to overseed strictly with PRG! The only way for me to get KBG to take off would be a complete Reno, and that's probably not in the cards for a few years!!


----------



## Ware

Before...


----------



## Ware

HOC = 5/8"


----------



## J_nick




----------



## Redtenchu

Holy smokes!


----------



## wardconnor

Absolutely fabulous. Love it


----------



## trc

Wow :clapping:


----------



## csbutler

Woah

:thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## ericgautier

Wow! Niceeeeeee.


----------



## Spammage

:dancenana:


----------



## HoosierHound

Looks amazing!

And I fully expect it to get darker as it matures.


----------



## MasterMech

Holy stripes!!


----------



## cnet24

Is it too late to get the front yard seeded?!?!?!

Nice Ware, great results so far!


----------



## Ware

cnet24 said:


> Is it too late to get the front yard seeded?!?!?!
> 
> Nice Ware, great results so far!


No, and I've been struggling with that decision all. day. long.


----------



## cnet24

Ware said:


> cnet24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too late to get the front yard seeded?!?!?!
> 
> Nice Ware, great results so far!
> 
> 
> 
> No, and I've been struggling with that decision all. day. long.
Click to expand...

... all in favor of Ware seeding the front yard, say I.

I.


----------



## FATC1TY




----------



## wardconnor

Do you have enough seed remaining?


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> Do you have enough seed remaining?


I forgot I already sprayed pre-e on the front. That makes this decision much easier. :lol:


----------



## FATC1TY

So, speaking of the overseeding subject with pre-e.

What's your plan to get a barrier down on the back for the summer when you don't have the cool season grass?

Potential risk of higher weed pressure just something to take in stride with the overseed, or simply applying later in season and dealing with and lag in coverage as it happens early ?


----------



## Ware

FATC1TY said:


> So, speaking of the overseeding subject with pre-e.
> 
> What's your plan to get a barrier down on the back for the summer when you don't have the cool season grass?
> 
> Potential risk of higher weed pressure just something to take in stride with the overseed, or simply applying later in season and dealing with and lag in coverage as it happens early ?


I will likely do no fall/winter pre-e in the back this year - just rely on the turf density to keep the weeds choked out.

I will resume normal pre-e application in the spring (March) to control spring/summer weeds.


----------



## g-man

You could do a winter preM.


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> You could do a winter preM.


After 60 days?


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> You could do a winter preM.
> 
> 
> 
> After 60 days?
Click to expand...


----------



## ajmikola

Ware said:


> HOC = 5/8"


Come on man, thats just not right. That is unreal. Congrats man. Envious is an understatement.


----------



## g-man

I would wait closer to the 60 days. Something tells me that they werent planning on a 5/8in hoc when they wrote to wait until the second mowing.


----------



## ABC123

Thank you for posting this, defiantly motivation. Looks amazing!


----------



## Pete1313

Ware said:


> HOC = 5/8"


Looks beautiful! Did you take it down in steps to get it to 5/8"?



g-man said:


> I would wait closer to the 60 days. Something tells me that they werent planning on a 5/8in hoc when they wrote to wait until the second mowing.


+1
I just put my prodiamine app down today at day 64.


----------



## OutdoorEnvy

That looks really nice Ware. Probably makes you wish you would have done the front too!


----------



## ajmikola

Ware said:


> cnet24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is it too late to get the front yard seeded?!?!?!
> 
> Nice Ware, great results so far!
> 
> 
> 
> No, and I've been struggling with that decision all. day. long.
Click to expand...

What is the plan for next year? How does the PRG die and bermuda come back? Do you have to do anything special to kill off the rye?


----------



## Ware

ajmikola said:


> What is the plan for next year? How does the PRG die and bermuda come back? Do you have to do anything special to kill off the rye?


I'll spray it with some Certainty or something when the Bermuda begins to come out of dormancy.


----------



## g-man

Ware explained it in the first post. He will kill the prg with herbicide.


----------



## Cavan806

Holy crap.... that pic of the stripes looked so good! I really really want to do this!


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Looks beautiful! Did you take it down in steps to get it to 5/8"?


The density is still pretty thin, so I set it to 5/8" and took off. The grass wanted to lay down, so I did miss some, despite mowing in two directions. It will definitely benefit from more frequent mowing. My next cut will be Thursday afternoon.


----------



## j4c11

Shouldn't this be in the cool season section? Come on, cross over to the dark side :lol:


----------



## vnephologist

j4c11 said:


> Shouldn't this be in the cool season section? Come on, cross over to the dark side :lol:


+1 I feel yucky following a warm season thread! ;-)


----------



## Reelnutt

Ware I did this a couple years ago. The only prob I had is the Rye doesn't like the high traffic volume mine started dying off where i striped it. It's beautiful when it's green though


----------



## Ware

Reelnutt said:


> Ware I did this a couple years ago. The only prob I had is the Rye doesn't like the high traffic volume mine started dying off where i striped it. It's beautiful when it's green though


That's strange - did you use annual or perennial rye? Strange because I can't imagine it got more traffic than a football field, which I understand are commonly overseeded with rye in the fall.


----------



## thegrassfactor

I overseeded my fields last week. I don't get super fancy with seeding, I just lay it down heavy. I don't even rake it in, just water it and go.

When you spray out the rye next year, try not to be too disheartened at how much damage is done to the bermuda. It will make your stomach sink at first, but it recovers quickly.

I've never used MSM to spray out rye, but I have used MSM + rimsulfuron. Worked well. I normally use monument because a single blanket app of that to spray out the PRG will usually give me season long sedge control as well.

Again, to reiterate, don't panic when you spray it out, just throw the AMS down and you'll breathe easy in a few weeks.


----------



## Reelnutt

Ware said:


> Reelnutt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ware I did this a couple years ago. The only prob I had is the Rye doesn't like the high traffic volume mine started dying off where i striped it. It's beautiful when it's green though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's strange - did you use annual or perennial rye? Strange because I can't imagine it got more traffic than a football field, which I understand are commonly overseeded with rye in the fall.
Click to expand...

Maybe it got disease or something I may try again this year.


----------



## Reelnutt

Is there any info on how low you can cut annual rye?


----------



## Ware

Reelnutt said:


> Is there any info on how low you can cut annual rye?


Not sure about annual rye, but I know Connor is mowing PRG at ~5/8".


----------



## Reelnutt

I just read where the University of Kentucky says keep it cut at 1 1/2in


----------



## Ridgerunner

Reelnutt said:


> I just read where the University of Kentucky says keep it cut at 1 1/2in


I think they state that cutting up-right grasses shorter than that is "not advisable for long term health." Not applicable for Ware as he is already premeditating grassicide.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Holy smokes, I can't wait until next year to do this to my front yard. Hell, I might even do it this year to the back yard once the weather starts cooling off. It's still in the high 80's here.


----------



## Ware

A quick shot from this morning...


----------



## Ridgerunner

Looks good. We might make you an honorary cool season grass guy yet.
What are those two stripes at the bottom? I thought they might be shadows but not.


----------



## Ware

Ridgerunner said:


> ...What are those two stripes at the bottom? I thought they might be shadows but not.


Overhead power line shadows.


----------



## wardconnor

You secretly want this look all year.


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> You secretly want this look all year.


It does look NICE. :thumbup:

I took it down to 1/2" this morning to gauge how the Bermuda is growing and tie things over while I'm gone this weekend.


----------



## Ware

^^^ Look closely and you'll see I'm paying tribute to the inspiration for this project. :thumbup:


----------



## wardconnor

Ha ha. Thanks. Nice touch there.

Edit: my favorite part are the flamingos.

Flamingo Friday?


----------



## Pete1313

It looks okay... If you are in to that whole low cut, striped lawn look. :roll:


----------



## ABC123

Pete1313 said:


> It looks okay... If you are in to that whole low cut, striped lawn look. :roll:


 :lol:


----------



## J_nick

Pete1313 said:


> It looks okay... If you are in to that whole low cut, striped lawn look. :roll:


Whew Pete, I thought you were dead! Update your thread already :mrgreen:


----------



## Pete1313

J_nick said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks okay... If you are in to that whole low cut, striped lawn look. :roll:
> 
> 
> 
> Whew Pete, I thought you were dead! Update your thread already :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

I knew I forgot to do something this week! :fool:


----------



## Ware

Day 17


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Ware said:


> Day 17


Bingo! Awesome!


----------



## g-man

Flamingo night at Ware house!!

http://flamingofriday.com


----------



## dfw_pilot

Ware said:


>


Pure Magic.


----------



## vnephologist

Wowza! Nice work Ware. Depending on how my KBG/TTTF holds color this winter, I might have to start overseeding my cool season lawn with PRG every Fall too.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> Day 17


Sick!!! What are your thoughts so far?!!


----------



## cnet24

Ware said:


> Day 17


Enough of this. We are ready for some front yard updates.

Looks great Ware.


----------



## lagerman72

cnet24 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> Day 17
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Enough of this. We are ready for some front yard updates.
> 
> Looks great Ware.
Click to expand...

Totally agree...dive in Ware!!  (easy for me to say, I'm not mowing it) Looks great though!!


----------



## Ware

lagerman72 said:


> cnet24 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Enough of this. We are ready for some front yard updates.
> 
> Looks great Ware.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally agree...dive in Ware!!  (easy for me to say, I'm not mowing it) Looks great though!!
Click to expand...

I probably would have done the front too had I seen what I see now in the back, but I applied pre-e to the front back in September, so overseeding it is a nonstarter.


----------



## cnet24

Just curious- what does that maintenance schedule look like now for your PRG? Outside of mowing, are you having to continue irrigation & fertilizer?


----------



## Ware

cnet24 said:


> Just curious- what does that maintenance schedule look like now for your PRG? Outside of mowing, are you having to continue irrigation & fertilizer?


I will apply some fertilizer - probably this weekend. I watered a small amount about 3 times a day during the germination period to keep the soil moist. Now I have cut back to "normal" watering, which is obviously less than growing bermuda in 90+ August temperatures. We normally see 2.5-4" of rain per month during the winter, so I don't anticipate any issues when it is time to shut the irrigation system down.


----------



## LawnNerd

Ware said:


> Day 17


.... Where have i seen those Flamingos on a PRG yard before... :lol:


----------



## g-man

^ technically prg and kbg.


----------



## Ware

I thought the flamingos were required to make the cool season grass look good.


----------



## LawnNerd

I think you're right Ware. Always learning so much on how to take my lawn to the next level.


----------



## Suaverc118

Man Ware, your back yard looks amazing. I wish I had the time to do the same. Since you're only doing the back, how will the front yard looks like and how does it look now?


----------



## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Man Ware, your back yard looks amazing. I wish I had the time to do the same. Since you're only doing the back, how will the front yard looks like and how does it look now?


The front will go dormant - probably within the next month. It's hanging in there, but with temps now dipping down into the 40's at night, the growth will slow considerably. We also lose over an hour of daylight during the month of October. I sprayed my last PGR app for the season last night. The back is completely fenced, so having green PGR back there all winter will not look awkward.

Here is a shot of the front from today...


----------



## dfw_pilot

This overseed project is taking it up to 11.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc


----------



## Suaverc118

Ware said:


> Suaverc118 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Man Ware, your back yard looks amazing. I wish I had the time to do the same. Since you're only doing the back, how will the front yard looks like and how does it look now?
> 
> 
> 
> The front will go dormant - probably within the next month. It's hanging in there, but with temps now dipping down into the 40's at night, the growth will slow considerably. We also lose over an hour of daylight during the month of October. I sprayed my last PGR app for the season last night. The back is completely fenced, so having green PGR back there all winter will not look awkward.
> 
> Here is a shot of the front from today...
Click to expand...

Looks great. Which PGR do you use? And how would it benefit me if I was to spray some within the next week?


----------



## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Looks great. Which PGR do you use? And how would it benefit me if I was to spray some within the next week?


T-Nex, which is just a generic 12% Trinexapac-ethyl (Primo Maxx). As for the benefit, we mostly use it to slow growth.


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> Day 17


Beautiful lawn there.


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> I thought the flamingos were required to make the cool season grass look good.


They are required. They technically take out all the imperfections that the bystander can normally see. The flamingos melt all the imperfections away.


----------



## 95mmrenegade

What is the cut schedule as we transition into nov, dec and jan


----------



## Ware

95mmrenegade said:


> What is the cut schedule as we transition into nov, dec and jan


Not sure yet.


----------



## Ware

dfw_pilot said:


> This overseed project is taking it up to 11.


You can't really dust for vomit.


----------



## g-man

Ware said:


> I forgot I already sprayed pre-e on the front. That makes this decision much easier. :lol:


I've been thinking about this. How much and what product you use? You might be able to seed in December. The PreM prevents but it is not 100% and it does break down.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

g-man said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot I already sprayed pre-e on the front. That makes this decision much easier. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking about this. How much and what product you use? You might be able to seed in December. The PreM prevents but it is not 100% and it does break down.
Click to expand...

The g-man hath spoken sir, therefore you must spread your seed!


----------



## g-man

Colonel K0rn said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> I forgot I already sprayed pre-e on the front. That makes this decision much easier. :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been thinking about this. How much and what product you use? You might be able to seed in December. The PreM prevents but it is not 100% and it does break down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The g-man hath spoken sir, therefore you must spread your seed!
Click to expand...

Hahaha! far from it. I'm just wondering. A lot of factors at play (ie. temperature) plus the PreM qty (I'm guessing prodiamine).


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> Hahaha! far from it. I'm just wondering. A lot of factors at play (ie. temperature) plus the PreM qty (I'm guessing prodiamine).


Yeah, Prodiamine at the 6mo rate.


----------



## Ware

Went back up to 5/8" today. I'm anxious to see how it looks once the bermuda goes dormant.


----------



## Pete1313

Looks great Ware! Was the 1/2" HOC last week to keep the bermuda below the 5/8" HOC of the PRG and try and keep the dormant bermuda from showing thru? If so, do you plan on having to do anymore of those drops? Or is the bermuda just about done?


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> Went back up to 5/8" today. I'm anxious to see how it looks once the bermuda goes dormant.


I like


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Looks great Ware! Was the 1/2" HOC last week to keep the bermuda below the 5/8" HOC of the PRG and try and keep the dormant bermuda from showing thru? If so, do you plan on having to do anymore of those drops? Or is the bermuda just about done?


Yes sir - the drop to 1/2" last week was just sort of a check to see if the bermuda had grown back to that height. If you recall, I had taken it down to 3/8" and sprayed with PGR the same day I overseeded. That was 3 weeks ago today. I didn't see any bermuda clippings in my basket, so that's good. I don't anticipate dropping the HOC again - the PRG didn't seem to like it, and the bermuda growth has slowed considerably.

I'm thinking about using my leftover seed to touch up a few spots today. It's still early, but I can tell it's not as thick in some places, and I have a little damage on the ends where I turn the reel mower.

Overall, it looks fantastic, but the real test will be when the bermuda turns brown in a few weeks. I think that's when I will really start to play with the HOC to determine what looks best.


----------



## Ware

I went ahead and put the rest of the seed down today, and spread some Greens Grade Milorganite at about 1.5lbs N per thousand.


----------



## Gambi

Is it possible for perennial rye to reach full maturity, drop seeds, and germinate all in the few month befor winter? How long for new perennial rye to develop seedheads?

If lets say you drop seed early october, and it has 1 or 2 months before first frost, is this enough time? Its been a pretty warm october here.


----------



## Ware

Gambi said:


> Is it possible for perennial rye to reach full maturity, drop seeds, and germinate all in the few month befor winter? How long for new perennial rye to develop seedheads?
> 
> If lets say you drop seed early october, and it has 1 or 2 months before first frost, is this enough time? Its been a pretty warm october here.


Not sure, but I don't plan on letting it get anywhere close to a height that would produce seedheads.


----------



## LawnNerd

Ware said:


> ...The back is completely fenced, so having green PGR PRG back there all winter will not look awkward.


So, the neighbors won't see the PRG, but will see the dormant Bermuda in the front. Then they'll hear the mower running. I wish i could see their faces the first time they realize you're mowing what they think is a dormant Bermuda lawn :lol:


----------



## dfw_pilot

LawnNerd said:


> the neighbors ... will see the dormant Bermuda and hear the mower running.


I've thought about leaving my rotary setting out on top of 1/2 inch reel cut bermuda to make people think that's the mower that did it and mess with them. "Why won't my mower cut like that?"


----------



## LawnNerd

dfw_pilot said:


> LawnNerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> the neighbors ... will see the dormant Bermuda and hear the mower running.
> 
> 
> 
> I've thought about leaving my rotary setting out on top of 1/2 inch reel cut bermuda to make people think that's the mower that did it and mess with them. "Why won't my mower cut like that?"
Click to expand...

Thats pretty funny, and then hopefully their subsequent googling brings them here to TLF!


----------



## DJLCN

How are things looking after the heavy frost we woke up to this morning?


----------



## Ware

Tall. I haven't mowed in a week - waiting on the extra seed to germinate. My PWS recorded 28.8°F as the low last night, and I think they're calling for 29°F again tonight.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Ware said:


> My PWS recorded 28.8°F as the low last night, and I think they're calling for 29°F again tonight.


Seriously?!? You had sub-freezing temperatures there in Arkansas last night, with a repeat forecast for sub-freezing temps tonight?

It must be a very rare year that you get your first frost there in Fort Smith, AR before I do up in Bedford, NH!

Here in Bedford, New Hampshire (the southern part of the state) the lowest temp we've had so far this fall has been 37F. Our average first frost date is Sep 26, with 90% likelihood by Oct 13. This is a very warm autumn for us here.

We don't even have a sub-freezing low in the extended (14-day) forecast...


----------



## Ware

ken-n-nancy said:


> Seriously?!? You had sub-freezing temperatures there in Arkansas last night, with a repeat forecast for sub-freezing temps tonight?
> 
> It must be a very rare year that you get your first frost there in Fort Smith, AR before I do up in Bedford, NH!
> 
> Here in Bedford, New Hampshire (the southern part of the state) the lowest temp we've had so far this fall has been 37F. Our average first frost date is Sep 26, with 90% likelihood by Oct 13. This is a very warm autumn for us here.
> 
> We don't even have a sub-freezing low in the extended (14-day) forecast...


We're actually not too far from normal - average first frost/light freeze here is November 5th.


----------



## Ware

Here is a look at the back yard. It needs a haircut - I haven't mowed it in over a week. :?

The tire tracks are from spreading some Milorganite.

I'll probably mow it tomorrow before heading out of town for the weekend.


----------



## Suaverc118

Man wAre your lawn looks beautiful. Mine hasn't grown much and I'm a little sad. I wish I can get it a little thicker just 1 more time before it gets really cold. Not sure if its smart to our anything down again.


----------



## Ware




----------



## SNOWBOB11

That looks really nice. I can't believe the prg is doing so well and is such a nice colour at that height.


----------



## Ware

SNOWBOB11 said:


> That looks really nice. I can't believe the prg is doing so well and is such a nice colour at that height.


HOC in that photo is 3/4".


----------



## Suaverc118

I want to do this next year.


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


>


^ I like this.


----------



## Pete1313

Beautiful!


----------



## Spammage

That is just shameful Ware. I bet you are kicking yourself for not doing the front yard too.


----------



## Txmx583

I've never had that great of luck with PRG... Mine always grew real spotty and was more effort that grass.. this makes me want to try again haha


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


>


Looks great ware! Looking forward to mowing all winter?!


----------



## M311att

That looks amazing. Question: if you plant winter grass can you continue to level with sand throughout the off-season?


----------



## Ware

M311att said:


> That looks amazing. Question: if you plant winter grass can you continue to level with sand throughout the off-season?


I will not be doing any leveling during the offseason. The PRG overseeding project is strictly cosmetic, so I wouldn't want to mess that up with sand. If I do any leveling, I will wait until the spring when the Bermuda is growing again. The only thing I plan to do this winter is enjoy these sick stripes. :nod:


----------



## Iriasj2009

That's just sick man.. #lawnporn


----------



## Redtenchu

Iriasj2009 said:


> That's just sick man.. #lawnporn


+1


----------



## raldridge2315

Ware said:


> M311att said:
> 
> 
> 
> That looks amazing. Question: if you plant winter grass can you continue to level with sand throughout the off-season?
> 
> 
> 
> I will not be doing any leveling during the offseason. The PRG overseeding project is strictly cosmetic, so I wouldn't want to mess that up with sand. If I do any leveling, I will wait until the spring when the Bermuda is growing again. The only thing I plan to do this winter is enjoy these sick stripes. :nod:
Click to expand...

Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's grass --- but that is absolutely awesome!! Like I've said before, you don't buy a nice lawn, you earn it. It's payday, Ware.


----------



## g-man

The beauty of a cool season lawn.


----------



## Ware

raldridge2315 said:


> Thou shall not covet thy neighbor's grass --- but that is absolutely awesome!! Like I've said before, you don't buy a nice lawn, you earn it. It's payday, Ware.


Thanks man! It is definitely a lot of work.



g-man said:


> The beauty of a cool season lawn.


It is impressive! Too bad it is an inferior species that can't take the southern heat.


----------



## ABC123

Makes you want to move doesn't it?


----------



## 95mmrenegade

What is the plan for april next year, nuke the rye grass?


----------



## Ware

95mmrenegade said:


> What is the plan for april next year, nuke the rye grass?


Yes, probably around the time I do my spring scalp.


----------



## Ware

Decided to do something a little different today... a short video, FYVP... :thumbup:

https://youtu.be/wnGQb29Zpp0


----------



## scarlso2

That looks amazing


----------



## wardconnor

This would work for me. NO SNOW. I could get used to that.

Looks FANTASTIC!


----------



## Suaverc118

Damn the devil to hell


----------



## dfw_pilot

Suaverc118 said:


> Damn the devil to hell


He is.


----------



## Colonel K0rn




----------



## wardconnor

Colonel K0rn said:


>


^ THIS


----------



## Suaverc118

Hey Ware! How long does it take to mow and edge your back yard?


----------



## Pete1313

That is enough Ware!! All of the cool-season lawns up north are starting to go dormant, and here you are dancing around on some of the most perfect looking PRG. It is not fair! :lol:


----------



## Ware

Suaverc118 said:


> Hey Ware! How long does it take to mow and edge your back yard?


I haven't timed it, but not long - the back yard is only about 2k square feet. Maybe 20-30 minutes to double cut, trim and blow the back yard? I don't rush it - I do it to relax.



Pete1313 said:


> That is enough Ware!! All of the cool-season lawns up north are starting to go dormant, and here you are dancing around on some of the most perfect looking PRG. It is not fair! :lol:


Maybe I should start a bed & breakfast where the cool season guys can travel south and mow a cool season lawn during the winter months. :lol:


----------



## lagerman72

As everyone else has said, looks great!!


----------



## LawnNerd

Ware said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is enough Ware!! All of the cool-season lawns up north are starting to go dormant, and here you are dancing around on some of the most perfect looking PRG. It is not fair! :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I should start a bed & breakfast where the cool season guys can travel south and mow a cool season lawn during the winter months. :lol:
Click to expand...

I dunno, we'll probably show up with hives and shakes. You might not let us in. :lol:


----------



## ABC123

Ware said:


> Maybe I should start a bed & breakfast where the cool season guys can travel south and mow a cool season lawn during the winter months. :lol:


Maybe that could be a great feature for a Air B&B listing.


----------



## g-man

There will be a reverse in the summer with ware coming up to mow a real lawn once the prg dies and all he has is Bermuda.


----------



## Pete1313

g-man said:


> There will be a reverse in the summer with ware coming up to mow a real lawn once the prg dies and all he has is Bermuda.


 :nod:


----------



## MasterMech

Awesome &#128079;&#127995;


----------



## bretben55

I bet you wish you would have done the front yard now!!! It's still not too late! Haha.


----------



## aug0211

(Drooling over here)


----------



## Ware

Something a little different. I like it more than I thought I would. :thumbup:


----------



## wardconnor

Holy crap.... That's freaking awesome. What are those pink birds?


----------



## Ware

Here is an accompanying iPhone video...

https://youtu.be/7RwGlHFueVs


----------



## Redtenchu

Very cool


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> Here is an accompanying iPhone video...


Black & White was never my favorite pattern, but I like what you did there!


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Triple mowed!!! Good thing it's only about 2,000 ft2!


----------



## Suaverc118

You're 2 legit, 2 legit to quit!


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> Here is an accompanying iPhone video...


Really digging the videos!


----------



## Pete1313

Awesome as usual Ware! Really love the videos, i need to make some of those!

On the few lighter/off colored spots. Is that the dormant bermuda showing thru? Or the PRG?


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Awesome as usual Ware! Really love the videos, i need to make some of those!
> 
> On the few lighter/off colored spots. Is that the dormant bermuda showing thru? Or the PRG?


Thanks! Are you talking about these spots?








If so, I think those are small dirt/bare spots from smashed earthworm castings.


----------



## Pete1313

Ware said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome as usual Ware! Really love the videos, i need to make some of those!
> 
> On the few lighter/off colored spots. Is that the dormant bermuda showing thru? Or the PRG?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Are you talking about these spots?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, I think those are small dirt/bare spots from smashed earthworm castings.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I was looking at these couple lighter spots and if it was the bermuda showing thru, if it was wear on the PRG, or just camera angle. BTW, I'm going to be booking my plane ticket soon... when is the B&B going to officially open for us cool season folks? :lol:


----------



## Ware

Oh, so those are just spots where I turned and the grass is laying in the wrong direction. It's tough because the PRG stripes so easy.


----------



## Pete1313

Gotcha. Looks beautiful as always! Hope this thread as well as wardconnor's inspires other cool season members to try low cut PRG, because it looks so good! :thumbsup: still cutting at 5/8"


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Awesome as usual Ware! Really love the videos, i need to make some of those!
> 
> On the few lighter/off colored spots. Is that the dormant bermuda showing thru? Or the PRG?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! Are you talking about these spots?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If so, I think those are small dirt/bare spots from smashed earthworm castings.
Click to expand...

What, you don't use a dew whip to whip those spots right off your turf? :lol:


----------



## Ware

MasterMech said:


> What, you don't use a dew whip to whip those spots right off your turf? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, I have looked at those...


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> 
> What, you don't use a dew whip to whip those spots right off your turf? :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, I have looked at those...
> 
> 
> 
> They work! We used them to dismiss worm castings and any clipping drops from the mowers. Sometimes the greens rollers would leave a mess depending on conditions. The whip would clean it all right up. Catch worm castings just right with a flick of the tip and they launch a pretty good distance!
Click to expand...


----------



## Ware

As I finished up mowing with the LED headlights on the GM1600 glowing, then grabbed my headlamp while letting the Landscape Blade warm up, I realized...


The best part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.

The worst part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Ware said:


> The best part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.
> The worst part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.


----------



## vnephologist

Ware said:


> As I finished up mowing with the LED headlights on the GM1600 glowing, then grabbed my headlamp while letting the Landscape Blade warm up, I realized...
> 
> 
> The best part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.
> 
> The worst part about this project is going to be having green grass all winter.


I know what you mean. Sunset time is really killing my motivation these days. As others have said, this is looking incredible. We should consider starting Lawn Friendship Force.


----------



## Ware

I did some cleanup with the rotary mower today, so the stripes aren't exactly on point, but it still looks pretty good.


----------



## wardconnor

&#128077;

Looks good. The rotary mower for me is a must have tool in the tool box.


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> 👍
> 
> Looks good. The rotary mower for me is a must have tool in the tool box.


+1, it's great to have around for clean-up.


----------



## OutdoorEnvy

That looks a heck of a lot better than my brown bermuda lawn Ware! The came in really nice. You used a Rye blend right?


----------



## Ware

OutdoorEnvy said:


> ...You used a Rye blend right?


Yeah, Champion GQ from Seed Research of Oregon. I think any PRG would work fine though.


----------



## Ware

Here we are on December 10th. The PRG is holding up _reall_y well - our low temps for the last 6 days have ranged from 14-27°F (the last 3 nights have been down in the teens). I usually do time lapse videos, but decided to let this one run - enjoy! :thumbup:


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Jealous of that beautiful green color, and the fact that you're not freezing your butt off whilst laying down some sick stripes.


----------



## wardconnor

Looking beautiful as usual.

Is the B&B open yet? How much longer?


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> Looking beautiful as usual.
> 
> Is the B&B open yet? How much longer?


Thanks Connor. Change of plans on the B&B - the spare bedroom is being turned into a nursery. :?


----------



## Spammage

Ware said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking beautiful as usual.
> 
> Is the B&B open yet? How much longer?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Connor. Change of plans on the B&B - the spare bedroom is being turned into a nursery. :?
Click to expand...

  Congratulations Ware!!


----------



## Redtenchu

Great video, great turf and congratulations!


----------



## Ridgerunner

Congratulations!


----------



## ericgautier

Looking awesome!

& Congrats. :thumbup:


----------



## Pete1313

Congrats Ware!. and the lawn is looking awesome as usual.


----------



## DJLCN

Ware said:


> - the spare bedroom is being turned into a nursery. :?


Congrats!


----------



## g-man

I had to skip to the end. 11min was beyond my attention span (normally 30s).

Those stripes look so dark green. I was thinking that the dormant Bermuda was going to show thru, but i was wrong.

Congrats on the baby.


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> I had to skip to the end. 11min was beyond my attention span (normally 30s).
> 
> Those stripes look so dark green. I was thinking that the dormant Bermuda was going to show thru, but i was wrong.
> 
> Congrats on the baby.


Thanks! And me too - I will be going back to time lapse for future videos. :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

5x speed for g-man...

https://youtu.be/3gdPX7rDQa4


----------



## Cavan806

Congrats!


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Looking beautiful as usual.
> 
> Is the B&B open yet? How much longer?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Connor. Change of plans on the B&B - the spare bedroom is being turned into a nursery. :?
Click to expand...

Congrats!


----------



## social port

Man...I'm totally late to the party on this thread. Pure awesomeness.

Couldn't help but notice that you are mowing while low temps are well below 32. How are you getting the grass to grow so rapidly in such cold weather?


----------



## Ware

social port said:


> ...How are you getting the grass to grow so rapidly in such cold weather?


It's not growing super fast now. I would say I'm now mowing about once a week at 3/4".


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> Man...I'm totally late to the party on this thread. Pure awesomeness.
> 
> Couldn't help but notice that you are mowing while low temps are well below 32. How are you getting the grass to grow so rapidly in such cold weather?


32F isn't a "magic threshold" that kills cool-season grass or causes it to go dormant. We're familiar with many common garden vegetables that are frost-intolerant, such as cucumbers, peppers, pumpkins, squash, or tomatoes -- such plants will be _*killed*_ by a single light frost event.

But cool-season grasses aren't like those plants! Rather, cool-season grasses tolerate even hard frosts or a day or two of sub-freezing temperatures without detrimental effects other than a growth slowdown.

Actually, the weather that Ware's been having is fantastic weather for growing cool season grass. I looked at accuweather.com for a history of temps so far this month for Alma, Arkansas: (left temp column is actual recorded high/lows; far right column is historical average high/lows.)



Yes, there have been 8-consecutive days of overnight lows at or well-below freezing (down in the teens as Ware mentions), but daytime highs have been getting up above 40F every day, with most days breaking 50F. That's great weather for growing cool-season grass! Basically, Ware's most recent 8-days of weather look like a typical first-week-of-October here in New Hampshire. Lots of good grass-growing with that weather pattern.


----------



## social port

Thanks for the perspective and information, KnN. I assumed that temps that low would lead to very, very minimal growth, but I suppose not.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

social port said:


> Thanks for the perspective and information, KnN. I assumed that temps that low would lead to very, very minimal growth, but I suppose not.


If those overnight lows around 20F were coupled with daily highs around 35F every day, then there would be very minimal growth.

But a ~23F overnight low followed by a 52F daytime high is plenty warm enough for cool-season grasses to be growing consistently in the fall / early winter (since the ground is still comparatively warm.)

(Bermuda grass, on the other hand, wouldn't be doing anything except turning brown with those temps.)


----------



## Brodgers88

Man that rye looks so awesome! Curious how the spring transition will go. I'd love to have some turf to mow this time of year lol


----------



## Ware

More of the same - 10 days since my last cut. HOC is still 3/4". I shot video today because I wanted to try out this camalapse 4 that I ordered from Amazon. It's basically an egg timer with tripod threads to create a panning effect during time lapse videos. :thumbup:


----------



## Pete1313

I am enjoying the timely doses of reel mowed cool season grass. This will be a long winter for me as I have nothing in the garage to tinker with and bewitched is notoriously slow to get going once spring comes. So keep any and all updates coming! :thumbsup:


----------



## wardconnor

Looks good Ware. Makes me want to mow.

I was pounding some t posts yesterday installing some deer netting around some baby trees and dropped the solid metal post pounder on the lawn. The clinking sound of the steel hitting the ground made me cringe. Grass was solid as a rock frozen frost in ground. It's supposed to be a low of 4 here tomorrow. Boooo to winter.

Seeing your nice green SOFT lawn makes me smile.

I really need one of those 1600's


----------



## Ware




----------



## Redtenchu

Such an awesome contrast!


----------



## wardconnor

Looks really nice.

Pretty big difference there. Too bad your not the lawn talk of the neighborhood this time of year. I am sure you are the rest for the year just not now because all the beautiful ryegrass in the back is hidden.


----------



## MasterMech

wardconnor said:


> Looks really nice.
> 
> Pretty big difference there. Too bad your not the lawn talk of the neighborhood this time of year. I am sure you are the rest for the year just not now because all the beautiful ryegrass in the back is hidden.


My neighbors have kept asking what I did to keep my grass "so green". It looks like crap if you ask me as I had some "challenges" during the grow-in. If they are impressed by my splotchy mess, they have their mind blown by something that looks as good as Ware's lawn.


----------



## Ware

It's going to be a shame to have to kill this stuff in the spring...


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ware said:


> It's going to be a shame to have to kill this stuff in the spring...


That is the only thing holding me back from doing it next year right now, Curious to see how that goes for you.


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> It's going to be a shame to have to kill this stuff in the spring...


Yep... Your just going to have to move north. No choice.


----------



## Mightyquinn

wardconnor said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's going to be a shame to have to kill this stuff in the spring...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yep... Your just going to have to move north. No choice.
Click to expand...

He would be looking at a bunch of snow right now if he was up North. You need to move down South so you can have a green lawn all year around :thumbup:


----------



## g-man

Mightyquinn said:


> He would be looking at a bunch of snow right now if he was up North. You need to move down South so you can have a green lawn all year around :thumbup:


Technically a lawn only from Nov to March. The rest of the time it would just be a weed. :rofl:


----------



## Ware

Something a little different today. More info about the drone here.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> Something a little different today. More info about the drone here.


Green wonderland. Awesome ware! Im editing some footage and will be posting some soon just to get an idea of the drone that i purchased.


----------



## Pete1313

Wow! That is great stuff Ware! What a difference comparing your backyard to the dormant lawns in the area. Keep it coming! Better than looking at all the white stuff out the window up here!


----------



## Ware

Last cut of 2017...

https://youtu.be/iJW2dzwa0Gs


----------



## J_nick

Dude... you took it to the next level, 3 different camera angles? Who do you think you are the LCN?


----------



## Colonel K0rn

J_nick said:


> Dude... you took it to the next level, 3 different camera angles? Who do you think you are the LCN?


All he's missing is running over the GoPro with the spreader.


----------



## Ware

New Year pics...


----------



## cnet24

Ware said:


> New Year pics...


Ware looks like you have some stiff competition along your neighbor's fenceline... although I'm sure that greenery is caused by something other than turfgrass :lol:


----------



## Ware

cnet24 said:


> Ware looks like you have some stiff competition along your neighbor's fenceline... although I'm sure that greenery is caused by something other than turfgrass :lol:


Strangely, on the north face of that fence is where I'm having the most trouble with the PRG.


----------



## g-man

It is also strange the right side of the empty lot across the street looks greener than the left.


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> It is also strange the right side of the empty lot across the street looks greener than the left.


The left side of that gets finish mowed. They cut hay/brush hog the right. That side of the road is outside the city limits.


----------



## Ware

It's still hanging in there...


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> It's still hanging in there...


I showed my wife this picture and she said "he obviously lives in a new development being that no one has any grass or landscaping yet."

Looks good there Ware


----------



## cnet24

Ware said:


> It's still hanging in there...


Your neighbors are going to freak out next year when your front lawn looks like that... you need to start working on a crazy story/excuse when people ask you how your lawn is still green. Don't give away the secret!


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> It's still hanging in there...


Still looking great!

Wish I could say the same for mine. I've been noticing my ARG has slowly been dying off, especially where the Bermuda was heaviest. I'm not sure what happened but I'm kind of hoping the warm and wet weather this week props it back up some. I'm not too heart-broken as I'm more concerned with getting things in line for the main season at this point. But I certainly did not expect to see the ARG die back so much this early.


----------



## Ware

It has been relatively cold here, and I don't think it is growing much. I actually can't remember the last time I mowed it. Green grass that doesn't grow FTW. :thumbup:


----------



## Redtenchu

Ware said:


> It has been relatively cold here, and I don't think it is growing much. I actually can't remember the last time I mowed it. Green grass that doesn't grow FTW. :thumbup:


#astroturf


----------



## Reel Low Dad

I haven't read many of the previous posts but are you going to kill the rye in a couple months or let it naturally go dormant and let the Bermuda take over?


----------



## Ware

Fistertondeluxe said:


> I haven't read many of the previous posts but are you going to kill the rye in a couple months or let it naturally go dormant and let the Bermuda take over?


I will kill it when the bermuda starts to come out of dormancy.


----------



## Movingshrub

How do you plan to kill the rye? Any concerns about damaging the Bermuda that's starting to green up?


----------



## J_nick

Movingshrub said:


> How do you plan to kill the rye? Any concerns about damaging the Bermuda that's starting to green up?





Ware said:


> ajmikola said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the plan for next year? How does the PRG die and bermuda come back? Do you have to do anything special to kill off the rye?
> 
> 
> 
> I'll spray it with some Certainty or something when the Bermuda begins to come out of dormancy.
Click to expand...

I think he's also thought about spraying MSM but he already has Certainty on hand for sedges.


----------



## Movingshrub

Thanks. Totally missed that.

I only asked cause I knew Certainity wasn't supposed to be that effective on poa so I was curious about its effectiveness on rye. With that being said, shouldn't Celsius damage the rye as well?


----------



## Mightyquinn

Movingshrub said:


> Thanks. Totally missed that.
> 
> I only asked cause I knew Certainity wasn't supposed to be that effective on poa so I was curious about its effectiveness on rye. With that being said, shouldn't Celsius damage the rye as well?


Celsius might do the trick but it isn't labeled to kill rye like Certainty is or MSM for that matter.


----------



## high leverage

MSM is by far the cheapest option however there are many Sulfonylurea herbicides that will take out rye. With MSM anything around 1oz per acre and over could kill trees. 2 oz per acre you just sterilized your soil.


----------



## high leverage

this is with the 60% active ingredient mix


----------



## high leverage

Ware I'm curious did you use any PGR with your ryegrass this season?


----------



## Ware

high leverage said:


> Ware I'm curious did you use any PGR with your ryegrass this season?


I did not. I had a big growth spurt when I fertilized it about a month after germination, but once it started getting cooler the growth slowed considerably. I was mowing about once a week at 3/4", so it really wasn't needed.

The last few weeks have been much colder, and my last cut was 12/31. The turf doesn't look as good, but it is still green. Our lows for the next 4 nights are forecasted to be 11, 10, 18 and 25F. That's about as cold as it gets here, so this will be the real test. Next week is back in the 50's with lows around 35F.


----------



## Ware

Just an update... we've had what I would call a colder than normal January (for here), and the PRG seems to be struggling a little. It's still a much better look than the completely dormant bermuda, but some of the blade tips have turned, giving the lawn a chalky look. I'm attributing it to two 6-7 spans over the last month (the first one circled below stretched a day or two back into Dec) where the average daily temps were right around or below freezing, but maybe the cool season guys can confirm.

@wardconnor @g-man @Pete1313


----------



## Pete1313

Those temps are cold, even for cool season grass. Have any data on soil temps? Could possibly be going dormant. Maybe time to plan your winterizer fertilizer app.


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Those temps are cold, even for cool season grass. Have any data on soil temps? Could possibly be going dormant. Maybe time to plan your winterizer fertilizer app.


I sure don't. If that's the case, will it snap back as temps warm?


----------



## g-man

When was the last time you fertilize and rate?


----------



## Pete1313

The best I can come up with is your soil temps right now are around 40°F soil temps about the temp when shoot growth stops and willing to bet you were in the mid 30's last week. It should snap back when temps warm. How quick? Maybe others can comment, I do know rye is quick to break dormancy compared to other species if cold temps are the cause.


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> When was the last time you fertilize and rate?


I applied about 2lbs N per M total - split into 2 apps, 2-4 weeks after germination... so around late Oct/early Nov.


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> The best I can come up with is your soil temps right now are around 40°F soil temps about the temp when shoot growth stops and willing to bet you were in the mid 30's last week. It should snap back when temps warm. How quick? Maybe others can comment, I do know rye is quick to break dormancy compared to other species if cold temps are the cause.


Sounds about right. We saw a high of 60°F today and I just went out and got a soil temp of 42°F at 2" depth. In another spot that stays mostly shaded, it was still 36°F.


----------



## g-man

Thats almost 3 months without nitrogen, I would throw some AS (0.5lbN per M) and water it in.

Long range forecast has another arctic blast in two weeks.


----------



## Spammage

But, but, he has to wait for the pause.


----------



## g-man

He had a pause, two weeks ago. 

This is from Clemson. I wish they posted some research with their recommendations.

http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/plants/landscape/lawns/hgic1206.html


----------



## wardconnor

I'm with g-man. I'd put some urea down. Sounds like it's just in a funk. I'm betting it will come back with n and water.

Have you been watering it? Or has it been watered by rain?


----------



## g-man

g-man said:


> I would throw some AS (0.5lbN per M) and water it in.


I was thinking about this on my way to work this morning (normal stuff for a lawnaholic to think about lawns as you drive for 30min). In case someone reads this in the future. I suggested AS (Ammonium Sulfate) as the source of nitrogen mainly because it is inorganic and fast. By fast I mean that once it get water, it make nitrogen available to the roots. Urea(organic) will also work, but it is not as fast as AS since it needs to separate the carbon out (CH4N2O). This is done using an enzyme in the soil (urease). As temperatures drop, the speed at which the urea catalyzes is reduced, so AS gives better assurance that there could be some uptake before the next freeze/temperature drop.


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> ...Have you been watering it? Or has it been watered by rain?





g-man said:


> ...I suggested AS (Ammonium Sulfate) as the source of nitrogen mainly because it is inorganic and fast. By fast I mean that once it get water, it make nitrogen available to the roots...


Are you guys telling me this northern sissy grass needs water AND fertilizer? :lol:

I've been relying on rain only - about 2.5" since Jan 1. I'll pick up a bag of AS today. It is supposed to rain tomorrow night, so I'll try to get some down tomorrow. I shut down my irrigation and had them stop billing the meter a couple months ago.

The forecast looks more favorable this week. I'd like to set myself up to finish the "season" strong. :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

I got the AS down (a little over 1/2lb N per k) and it rained about 1/2" last night. :thumbup:


----------



## g-man

@Ware Any effects from the AS?


----------



## Ware

I've been getting home after dark. I'll try to get a picture tomorrow.


----------



## LawnNerd

I know it's a little early, but when's the big kill?


----------



## Ware

LawnNerd said:


> I know it's a little early, but when's the big kill?


Still undecided.

Nice overcast day, so I took the drone up for some glamour shots...


----------



## g-man

It looks to have good color from 300ft above ground. I wonder if the google satellite view will show this in the future or they will taking there is something wrong with the camera.


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> It looks to have good color from 300ft above ground. I wonder if the google satellite view will show this in the future or they will taking there is something wrong with the camera.


Ha, it looks okay - the lighting was favorable yesterday.


----------



## Ware

Copying this here for posterity...

The PRG isn't really growing so there wasn't much to cut, but I took the Swardman out to lay down some fresh stripes...

https://youtu.be/qC2ar3Rudpw


----------



## Ware

The end is definitely near. It was rocking, but right around Christmas it turned unseasonably cold for our area and just hasn't let up. I ordered a little MSM, and will spray it when it starts to warm up a bit.


----------



## Ware

Curious - does anyone know how many GDD's PRG needs to maintain active growth?


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> The end is definitely near...... ..... and will spray it when it starts to warm up a bit.


Booooooooo

GDD? I do not know. That is over my head.


----------



## high leverage

@Ware Will the Swardsman replace the GM1600 as your main mower this season?


----------



## Ware

high leverage said:


> @Ware Will the Swardsman replace the GM1600 as your main mower this season?


I'm definitely going to start the season with it. I'm going to try out the verticutter and other cartridges during my spring scalp, then continue to use it as long as it is here.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> The end is definitely near. It was rocking, but right around Christmas it turned unseasonably cold for our area and just hasn't let up. I ordered a little MSM, and will spray it when it starts to warm up a bit.


It was a tough winter that's for sure. I let mine grow up to an inch since I haven't had the energy to keep it under a half inch with all the rain we have been getting. Anxious for the transition. I'll warn you, once it warms up, that rye will bounce back.


----------



## MasterMech

Iriasj2009 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> The end is definitely near. It was rocking, but right around Christmas it turned unseasonably cold for our area and just hasn't let up. I ordered a little MSM, and will spray it when it starts to warm up a bit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was a tough winter that's for sure. I let mine grow up to an inch since I haven't had the energy to keep it under a half inch with all the rain we have been getting. Anxious for the transition. I'll warn you, once it warms up, that rye will bounce back.
Click to expand...

Yeah it will! We have been in the 50s and 60s for a couple weeks and the Annual Rye I have is out there growing as we speak..... I mowed @ 1" on Saturday and mowed again today @ 1". Some areas of the lawn had an inch of growth on it. :?


----------



## Ware

I may wait a bit and see what it does, but I'll be anxious to scalp once the warming trend really kicks off.

I wish the PRG was sustainable here. I wouldn't mind keeping it. The U of A grows some KBG on their farm about 45 miles north of me, but their summers aren't quite as brutal as we see down here in the river valley.


----------



## Pete1313

Ware said:


> I wish the PRG was sustainable here. I wouldn't mind keeping it.


You can always move north!


----------



## MasterMech

You probably could keep it, but warm humid nights would likely encourage dolllar spot or other fungal infections. It may brown a bit on the worst of your summer days, but keeping it alive is certainly possible with liberal irrigation.

Knocking it back once during your scalp likely won't kill it either. Especially if temps are in its preferred range.


----------



## Redtenchu

@Ware have you considered leaving some PRG along the fence line and in areas the Bermuda struggles?


----------



## Ware

@Redtenchu are you suggesting I compromise my Tif 419 monostand? :lol:

The PRG struggled in the shade along the north side of my fence too. Almost worse than the Bermuda, granted the sun is deeper in the southern sky this time of year.


----------



## g-man

Bermuda struggles?


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> Bermuda struggles?


Indeed. Shade is devastating.


----------



## Wes

@Ware

I was doing some research into the timing of pre-emergent and bermuda coming out of dormancy when I came across this article regarding removal of perennial rye from a overseeded bermuda. It discusses the risks of not doing this soon enough as well as the effectiveness of a few herbicides.

Obviously this information pertains to this thread (and you already had it in the plan), but it also stresses the importance of eliminating all grassy weeds from Bermuda grass early in the season.


----------



## Ware

Wes said:


> ...it also stresses the importance of *eliminating all grassy weeds* from Bermuda grass...


@wardconnor @g-man :lol:

Thanks Wes. Good stuff.


----------



## dfw_pilot

g-man said:


> Bermuda struggles?


Funny enough, it takes multiple rounds of glyphosate to kill it, but shade is its ultimate kryptonite.


----------



## wardconnor

@Ware @g-man

Uh yeah... I read the article just in case I ever get the itch to move south. This could become a reality someday. Snow is no bueno. I currently have 12 inches on my lawn.

Us 3 probably need to get into a room and get this bemuda weed thing hashed out once and for all. It might get ugly.


----------



## Ware

I kid - I _really_ like the look of the PRG, and if I could grow it year round I probably would.

I will also say the bermuda/PRG combo has been pretty cool too - you know, if you're into mowing all year.


----------



## Ware

I snapped this photo this morning. It's starting to bounce back, but can definitely see some tiger striping from the cold temps.


----------



## g-man

There is a weed growing underneath.


----------



## wardconnor

what are you temps?


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> what are you temps?


Good for PRG :mrgreen:


----------



## Pete1313

Good that it is starting to bounce back. It will make the kill more effective. Looks like some of it got injured from the cold temps.


----------



## Ware

I'm going to give it a few more days and see how it looks - I'd like to finish strong and see some more of those beautiful stripes before I put it down. 

Overall, I'd still call the project a success - we just had many more nights down in the teens and single digits than we normally see.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Ware said:


> I'm going to give it a few more days and see how it looks - I'd like to finish strong and see some more of those beautiful stripes before I put it down.
> 
> Overall, I'd still call the project a success - we just had many more nights down in the teens and single digits than we normally see.


Mine had a similar effect but not as drastic, its now all turning dark green with a bit of fertilizer. I put down a bag of starter fert. 1-1-0 ratio and sprayed it with some ammonium sulfate.


----------



## Ware




----------



## wardconnor

Yes. Another 4 months. Don't be spraying any of those harsh on the environment chemicals on that greener than your your neighbors fluffy SOFT grass.


----------



## g-man

The tiger looking stripes is the Bermuda, right?


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> The tiger looking stripes is the Bermuda, right?


Maybe where the PRG was damaged enough to expose the Bermuda underneath, but the "pattern" would be the PRG. The Bermuda is a uniform dormant brown right now.


----------



## bretben55

Ware-What mower is that?


----------



## Ware

bretben55 said:


> Ware-What mower is that?


A Swardman I have on loan/demo.


----------



## MasterMech

Ware said:


> I snapped this photo this morning. It's starting to bounce back, but can definitely see some tiger striping from the cold temps.


Any chance that it got some foot traffic while frosted or frozen?


----------



## Ware

MasterMech said:


> Any chance that it got some foot traffic while frosted or frozen?


Minimal.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I gotta know, have the neighbor's wondered what the hell you are mowing in your back yard, or are they clueless?


----------



## Ware

Colonel K0rn said:


> I gotta know, have the neighbor's wondered what the hell you are mowing in your back yard, or are they clueless?


I think they all know I'm crazy.


----------



## Bunnysarefat

I'm just here for the execution of the inferior grass. I wanna see that silky smooth transition. No pressure


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Ware, what type of shrubs are those along your back fence? I drew a circle around the one I'm asking about. Are they a variety of boxwood? I like how they grow upright and slender. I'd like to see if I can get a couple like that but not sure what they are. Thanks.


----------



## Ware

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Ware, what type of shrubs are those along your back fence?


The one you circled is a sky pencil holly.

And here is a reel low PRG mowing video from this afternoon...


----------



## Ware

Bunnysarefat said:


> I'm just here for the execution of the inferior grass. I wanna see that silky smooth transition. No pressure


I know, right? I can't wait. :spiteful:


----------



## J_nick

Ware said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ware, what type of shrubs are those along your back fence?
> 
> 
> 
> The one you circled is a sky pencil holly.
Click to expand...

Or as my wife would call it "a **** bush" :lol:


----------



## wardconnor

Bunnysarefat said:


> I'm just here for the execution of the inferior grass. I wanna see that silky smooth transition. No pressure


How is this "fighting lawn inequality?"

I kid, I kid

I'm still allowed to hang out in the warm season threads right?


----------



## Mightyquinn

wardconnor said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just here for the execution of the inferior grass. I wanna see that silky smooth transition. No pressure
> 
> 
> 
> How is this "fighting lawn inequality?"
> 
> I kid, I kid
> 
> I'm still allowed to hang out in the warm season threads right?
Click to expand...

For now you are :lol:


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Ware said:


> SNOWBOB11 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ware, what type of shrubs are those along your back fence?
> 
> 
> 
> The one you circled is a sky pencil holly.
Click to expand...

Thanks. :thumbup:


----------



## Bunnysarefat

wardconnor said:


> Bunnysarefat said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just here for the execution of the inferior grass. I wanna see that silky smooth transition. No pressure
> 
> 
> 
> How is this "fighting lawn inequality?"
> 
> I kid, I kid
> 
> I'm still allowed to hang out in the warm season threads right?
Click to expand...

Hey, don't make fun of my stupid tag line that literally no one but me finds humorous. Someone once said "The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of grass struggles."


----------



## Ware

Having a PRG lawn during the winter months was reel fun, but all good things must come to an end. :bandit:

I sprayed it this evening with MSM Turf at a rate of 0.5 oz/acre (0.325 g/M), which is the label rate for _Ryegrass (fairways)_. Per the label, I also added NIS at 0.25% by volume. I only had about 2,000ft2 to spray, so this is all it took:








Here is a video of the carnage:

https://youtu.be/T7D5RalcS-o​
So would I do it again? I think so. :nod:


----------



## J_nick

Oh that was satisfying :dumb:


----------



## g-man

I think we should do a minute of silence for this sad day.

Now ware is back to maintaining a weed.


----------



## Pete1313

Nooo!! :crying:


----------



## Redtenchu

A Great Ending to a Great Project!


----------



## Tellycoleman

g-man said:


> I think we should do a minute of silence for this sad day.
> 
> Now ware is back to maintaining a weed.


I heard alot of little screams in the video like the Wicked Witch of the West. " I'm melting!!! Melting!!!! Melting!!!"


----------



## DeliveryMan

@Ware I am super Curious ? -- what you think of that Swardsman mower on loan/demo -- it looks awfully sweet -- then again, any mower with a beer holder is good in my opinion


----------



## Ware

DeliveryMan said:


> @Ware I am super Curious ? -- what you think of that Swardsman mower on loan/demo -- it looks awfully sweet -- then again, any mower with a beer holder is good in my opinion


I have been cataloging my thoughts about it in this thread, and will be adding some new stuff today because I am working on my spring scalp. :thumbup:

But to answer your question, it handled the PRG just fine. I'm anxious to see how it does with the bermuda.


----------



## wardconnor

g-man said:


> I think we should do a minute of silence for this sad day.
> 
> Now ware is back to maintaining a weed.


+1



Pete1313 said:


> Nooo!! :crying:


+1


Redtenchu said:


> A Great Ending to a Great Project!


Yep


----------



## Redtenchu

DeliveryMan said:


> ...it looks awfully sweet -- then again, any mower with a beer holder is good in my opinion


+1


----------



## Ridgerunner

wardconnor said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think we should do a minute of silence for this sad day.
> 
> Now ware is back to maintaining a weed.
> 
> 
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nooo!! :crying:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> +1
> 
> 
> Redtenchu said:
> 
> 
> 
> A Great Ending to a Great Project!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yep
Click to expand...

Double Yep


----------



## Colonel K0rn

RIP PRG 2017-2018. You were nice to look at.


----------



## Ware




----------



## Colonel K0rn

Well, if the MSM wasn't bad enough, it's getting beaten down now.


----------



## Ware

My 3yo burning in some stripes. :thumbup:


----------



## wardconnor

Nice. Really pops with the accessories.


----------



## Fishnugget

Ware, here comes a newbee question...

What is the purpose of killing off the PRG? Here in Cali, everyone just lets it die on its own and Bermuda then takes over when it starts getting warmer.

I am curious because this is what I was told?


----------



## Ware

Fishnugget said:


> Ware, here comes a newbee question...
> 
> What is the purpose of killing off the PRG? Here in Cali, everyone just lets it die on its own and Bermuda then takes over when it starts getting warmer.
> 
> I am curious because this is what I was told?


I thought about trying to keep it as long as I could, but decided to kill it off so it isn't competing with the Bermuda coming out of dormancy.


----------



## Fishnugget

Oh...I see

I will probably let mine die on its own.


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Ware said:


>


I have my Featherstone Flamingos still in the box that I received as a gift on my birthday last year. My yard isn't worthy enough to have them out there yet.


----------



## Ware

This video was posted in the Swardman thread, but I wanted to link it here for posterity.

Ever notice how a sandwich tastes better when someone else makes it? There is a similar sensation when another TLF member mows your lawn. :lol:

https://youtu.be/IAkfBOvs3a8


----------



## Ware

Posting this photo here in case I need motivation to do this overseed thing again. I definitely wish I would have done the front too...


----------



## g-man

Motivation is not the problem. Time commitment is.


----------



## cnet24

@Ware have you started to notice any effects from your MSM app?


----------



## wardconnor

Yes. Pictures please


----------



## Ware

Not much change, unfortunately. The weather has been pretty mild, so it is not growing. I will reassess this weekend.


----------



## cnet24

I am very curious to see how you manage this transition back to bermuda- I think the unknown of this kept me from laying rye in my backyard this year, which struggles mightly when my bermuda goes dormant due to the grade of my landscape. If you are able to manage it successfully with 1-2 blanket apps, no doubt in my mind that I will overseed next year.


----------



## Ware

Thursday will mark 2 weeks since I sprayed. It appears slightly chlorotic, but I'd like to see more progression in the next week or so.


----------



## Ridgerunner

Ware said:


> Thursday will mark 2 weeks since I sprayed. It appears slightly chlorotic, but I'd like to see more progression in the next week or so.


What about the Bermuda? Has it awoken?


----------



## Ware

Ridgerunner said:


> What about the Bermuda? Has it awoken?


I have a little green in the front (where I scalped), but nothing significant yet.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Hey ware, how high is the PRG currently? I scalped mine down to .25" with the groomer set at ground level and it's struggleling. I stopped watering to encourage the Bermuda that's still alive to poke out. 
were you planning on scalping the back soon with some heavy grooming? That's essentially what I did, a heavy grooming and seems to have weakened the PRG.


----------



## Mightyquinn

Ware said:


> Thursday will mark 2 weeks since I sprayed. It appears slightly chlorotic, but I'd like to see more progression in the next week or so.


I would hit it again this weekend :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

Next week looks pretty soggy, so I think I'm going to scalp it and spray it again this weekend.


----------



## SimonR

Ware has got me going all crazy too!

8 DAS


----------



## Ware

SimonR said:


> Ware has got me going all crazy too!
> 
> 8 DAS


I can't wait to see this. :thumbup:


----------



## SimonR

I was going to wait until the weekend to mow, but it got the better of me


----------



## Ware

SimonR said:


> I was going to wait until the weekend to mow, but it got the better of me


 :thumbup: :thumbup:


----------



## raldridge2315

Ware said:


> SimonR said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was going to wait until the weekend to mow, but it got the better of me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :thumbup: :thumbup:
Click to expand...

ditto!!


----------



## Ware

Seeing some hurt. My plan is to scalp either this weekend or next, and spray again.


----------



## Pete1313

Is what your spraying root absorbed or foliar? 
Im assuming foliar (let me know if im wrong), but what do you think about doing the 2nd spray first, waiting a couple days and then scalping? My only experience is killing cool season grass before a renovation with glyphosate, but I think letting it have more leaf tissue and not stressing it before spraying (scalping) will give the ryegrass a better chance of absorbing the herbicide and a better kill. Thoughts?


----------



## Ware

Pete1313 said:


> Is what your spraying root absorbed or foliar?
> Im assuming foliar (let me know if im wrong), but what do you think about doing the 2nd spray first, waiting a couple days and then scalping? My only experience is killing cool season grass before a renovation with glyphosate, but I think letting it have more leaf tissue and not stressing it before spraying (scalping) will give the ryegrass a better chance of absorbing the herbicide and a better kill. Thoughts?


It's foliar. Sounds like a good plan. The trees in bloom are giving me some allergy problems, so I think I'll spray tomorrow and wait until next weekend to scalp. :thumbup:


----------



## Ridgerunner

How goes the ryeicide?


----------



## Ware

Ridgerunner said:


> How goes the ryeicide?


I sprayed it again on Saturday. Definitely losing color, but still hanging in there. I tried to drown it today - we got 2.3" of rain.

Funny story, I was looking back at the results of an allergy test I had done a few years ago and coincidentally I'm allergic to both bermudagrass and perennial ryegrass. :|


----------



## csbutler

While scrolling through my Facebook I thought i recognized this beauty.

:thumbup:


----------



## Mightyquinn

csbutler said:


> While scrolling through my Facebook I thought i recognized this beauty.
> 
> :thumbup:


I wonder if he got his free t-shirt


----------



## Ridgerunner

Ware said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> How goes the ryeicide?
> 
> 
> 
> I sprayed it again on Saturday. Definitely losing color, but still hanging in there. I tried to drown it today - we got 2.3" of rain.
> 
> Funny story, I was looking back at the results of an allergy test I had done a few years ago and coincidentally I'm allergic to both bermudagrass and perennial ryegrass. :|
Click to expand...

\

Of all the grasses in all the world, you pick to grow those two.


----------



## Ware

Mightyquinn said:


> I wonder if he got his free t-shirt


I did, but I don't ever wear it because it is 100% cotton. :lol:


----------



## Bunnysarefat

Ware said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he got his free t-shirt
> 
> 
> 
> I did, but I don't ever wear it because it is 100% cotton. :lol:
Click to expand...

We need a t-shirt/clothing fabric blend thread. That's another topic I obsess over that normies look at me like I'm crazy.

Ware, are you surprised the rye has hung on this strong after the MSM?


----------



## Colonel K0rn

Ware said:


> Mightyquinn said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he got his free t-shirt
> 
> 
> 
> I did, but I don't ever wear it because it is 100% cotton. :lol:
Click to expand...

Wait, are you allergic to cotton too? And awesome job on getting the Milorganite pic preference


----------



## Ware

Bunnysarefat said:


> We need a t-shirt/clothing fabric blend thread. That's another topic I obsess over that normies look at me like I'm crazy.
> 
> Ware, are you surprised the rye has hung on this strong after the MSM?


You should definitely launch that in General Discussion. :thumbup:

I was told it would be a slow kill. I'm thinking it will speed up a little after this second dose.



Colonel K0rn said:


> Wait, are you allergic to cotton too? And awesome job on getting the Milorganite pic preference


Thanks! I was allergic to most trees, grasses and weeds. I think they tested for about 50 different common allergens.


----------



## Ware

Taking it down. Current HOC is 7mm bench. It still looks pretty dang good. Actual HOC is not as short as my 7mm scalp in the front, so I'm going to verticut to thin it a little, then scalp again.








Here is an up close shot where you can see the mix of PRG and green Bermuda starting to come in.


----------



## Ware




----------



## gijoe4500

That's awesome that the Bermuda is greening up nicely as the prg is dying. You'll never have the gross brown look


----------



## Ware

I did some work with the Swardman verticutter and scarifier cartridges to thin the canopy, then scalped again with the reel in 4 directions at 6mm bench HOC. @DJLCN let me borrow a Craigslist find he picked up a few weeks ago to assist with the cleanup. :thumbup:

Strangely enough, the back yard almost looks better after all the scalp work I did today.


----------



## tnlynch81

Just when you think it would be impossible to kick it up another notch you pull out something like this... :shock: :shock: :shock:


----------



## Ware

Here are some additional shots...

Post-verticut (if you look close you can see the vertical grooves it cut):









A scarifier pass (the spring tines are much closer together than the verticutter blades, and remove an awesome amount of material):









Reel low grass:


----------



## g-man

i just looked at your front lawn pictures. It looks like the bermuda in back is greening up sooner than the front. Do you notice the same? Could the extra PRG be insulating the soil more?


----------



## Ware

g-man said:


> i just looked at your front lawn pictures. It looks like the bermuda in back is greening up sooner than the front. Do you notice the same? Could the extra PRG be insulating the soil more?


Yes - I thought I was crazy though. I have some theories... maybe it was insulated better from the coldest temps we had, maybe it is greening up quicker because the green PRG has been absorbing more heat than the lighter tan grass up front this spring, etc.

It is interesting for sure, and I'm anxious to see how the next several weeks play out.


----------



## g-man

It could also be heat/energy from the decomposition of the PRG.


----------



## Fishnugget

I am definitely jealous right now of your swardman with the scarifier and verticutter. I think that's were the Swardman shines.

Your lawn looks great even with the bermuda still not in its full prime, great job!


----------



## Colonel K0rn

I think that find that @DJLCN has is something that @wardconnor would appreciate for mention in his latest video. "These pebbles and rocks have go to go!"


----------



## Ware

Here is some action from yesterday. More pictures posted here.


----------



## RaginCajun

'Mercia


----------



## Ware




----------



## Movingshrub

What's the HOC for the pink and blue mower?


----------



## Ware

Movingshrub said:


> What's the HOC for the pink and blue mower?


Oh that's not a mower - it is a soil conditioner dispenser. :lol:


----------



## cnet24

Nice Ware- that's a good kill off. A quick reminder of MSM application rates and timing between applications? I'm going to try this next year in my backyard where erosion due to the grade of my property is a real issue.


----------



## Ware

cnet24 said:


> Nice Ware- that's a good kill off. A quick reminder of MSM application rates and timing between applications? I'm going to try this next year in my backyard where erosion due to the grade of my property is a real issue.


First app was March 8th[/sup] at 0.5 oz/acre, which is the label rate for "Ryegrass (fairways)".

Second app was March 24[sup]th at 0.75 oz/acre.

The max single application rate on the label is 1.0 oz/acre.


----------



## PokeGrande

Do you think you timed the kill (gradual kill) correctly or to your liking? These late freezes may have thrown it off some by holding back the bermuda green up.


----------



## Ware

PokeGrande said:


> Do you think you timed the kill (gradual kill) correctly or to your liking? These late freezes may have thrown it off some by holding back the bermuda green up.


I'm pretty happy with it, but the recent cold snap has definitely put the brakes on the bermuda.


----------



## Llano Estacado

You have probably covered this. What type of winter temperatures will the PRG handle? This thread has me considering trying this.

January is the coldest month here in West Texas average low around 24F.


----------



## Ware

Llano Estacado said:


> You have probably covered this. What type of winter temperatures will the PRG handle? This thread has me considering trying this.
> 
> January is the coldest month here in West Texas average low around 24F.


I'm not sure, but I think you would be fine. We had an unseasonably cold winter here - saw some single digit lows in January. The PRG basically quit growing but it was still green.


----------



## Llano Estacado

Ware said:


> Llano Estacado said:
> 
> 
> 
> You have probably covered this. What type of winter temperatures will the PRG handle? This thread has me considering trying this.
> 
> January is the coldest month here in West Texas average low around 24F.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure, but I think you would be fine. We had an unseasonably cold winter here - saw some single digit lows in January. The PRG basically quit growing but it was still green.
Click to expand...

You going to do it again?


----------



## Ware

Llano Estacado said:


> You going to do it again?


For sure. Too early for me to commit for this year, but I would do it again. :thumbup:


----------



## Gibby

Just curious, why did you chose to seed instead of paint?


----------



## Ware

Gibby said:


> Just curious, why did you chose to seed instead of paint?


The same reason Augusta doesn't use paint for The Masters. :bandit:


----------



## wiredawg

That is insane...in a good way...


----------



## MasterMech

Warm season folks haven't seen stripes until you've seen PRG stripes. Our fairways and tees up in NY were PRG at .500" and we could def do some nice work! :thumbup:

Also, PRG won't even blink at winter temps in the 20s. Stays green until things just get nasty cold! Usually the ground has to freeze hard before it goes completely dormant.


----------



## ahartzell

MasterMech said:


> Warm season folks haven't seen stripes until you've seen PRG stripes. Our fairways and tees up in NY were PRG at .500" and we could def do some nice work! :thumbup:
> 
> Also, PRG won't even blink at winter temps in the 20s. Stays green until things just get nasty cold! Usually the ground has to freeze hard before it goes completely dormant.


I'd do PRG if it wasn't for Arkansas' 100+ summer temps...


----------



## MasterMech

ahartzell said:


> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Warm season folks haven't seen stripes until you've seen PRG stripes. Our fairways and tees up in NY were PRG at .500" and we could def do some nice work! :thumbup:
> 
> Also, PRG won't even blink at winter temps in the 20s. Stays green until things just get nasty cold! Usually the ground has to freeze hard before it goes completely dormant.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd do PRG if it wasn't for Arkansas' 100+ summer temps...
Click to expand...

It's not the daytime highs that will get it, especially if you have irrigation. It's warm, humid nights that will destroy it via fungal disease.

That's why the stuff is pretty much non-existent here in S.C. as well, even in the Upstate region.


----------



## ahartzell

MasterMech said:


> ahartzell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MasterMech said:
> 
> 
> 
> Warm season folks haven't seen stripes until you've seen PRG stripes. Our fairways and tees up in NY were PRG at .500" and we could def do some nice work! :thumbup:
> 
> Also, PRG won't even blink at winter temps in the 20s. Stays green until things just get nasty cold! Usually the ground has to freeze hard before it goes completely dormant.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd do PRG if it wasn't for Arkansas' 100+ summer temps...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's not the daytime highs that will get it, especially if you have irrigation. It's warm, humid nights that will destroy it via fungal disease.
> 
> That's why the stuff is pretty much non-existent here in S.C. as well, even in the Upstate region.
Click to expand...

Yea we have plenty of that too...night time temps of 85 with humidity of 99% :lol:


----------



## Visitor

As I sit here and long for the fall in this Houston heat, I am starting prep for a possible winter overseed inspired by this thread. @ware I see you used MSM to kill the PRG. Is this the same MSM Turf that can harm ornamentals with roots growing under the turf? I ask bc I have fig ivy and had an issue when I used sedgehammer due to the fig roots running underneath the turf.

Any other alternatives for killing the PRG in spring?


----------



## DTCC_Turf

Visitor said:


> Any other alternatives for killing the PRG in spring?


Revolver
Tribute Total
Leave it. lf it dies in the summer heat then you killed it for free. If it survives, you got a head start going into fall.


----------



## Iriasj2009

Visitor said:


> As I sit here and long for the fall in this Houston heat, I am starting prep for a possible winter overseed inspired by this thread. @ware I see you used MSM to kill the PRG. Is this the same MSM Turf that can harm ornamentals with roots growing under the turf? I ask bc I have fig ivy and had an issue when I used sedgehammer due to the fig roots running underneath the turf.
> 
> Any other alternatives for killing the PRG in spring?


I had a similar project and I'm from the Houston area. I recommend you just let Mother Nature do its thing and kill the PRG for you. All I did was, going into April, scalped it and fertilized it heavy to allow the bermuda to take over. You can do this as early as February or March to start the transition process.


----------



## Ware

There are several herbicides that will take out the PRG.

And there are some specific reasons for using a transitioning herbicide in the spring...

Removing overseeded ryegrass from bermudagrass

Removing Overseeded Perennial Ryegrass from Bermudagrass Turf


----------



## Ware

I could be mistaken, but I also think @thegrassfactor (or someone here) has discussed some adverse physiological reactions that occur when PRG is left to die out on its own.


----------



## thegrassfactor

Ware said:


> I could be mistaken, but I also think @thegrassfactor (or someone here) has discussed some adverse physiological reactions that occur when PRG is left to die out on its own.


https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/handle/10355/10261

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/45/12/1872.full

As the PRGs become more and more genetically enhanced, they're especially developing potential to compete with bermuda even in adverse conditions.

Here is also anecdotal evidence of ryegrass transition disaster if not sprayed out. This is a customer that did not want to pay for ryegrass removal this year anticipating the heat would burn it out. I initially started to argue, but I told them we would do it their way as a science experiment. They are _*devastated *_by the condition of their lawn.


----------



## ABC123

Wow. That's some seriously mad ryegrass.


----------



## Ware

_Allelopathy_ was the big word I was trying to remember - thanks TGF. :thumbup:


----------



## DTCC_Turf

That's absolutely a risk, but I don't believe it's a certainty. This is a high school football field that is Bermuda over seeded with rye. It normally gets revolver in the spring to take care of the rye, but we also decided as a science experiment (also a money and labor savings)not spray out the rye. Some rye still persists, but where it hasn't, the transition has been smooth.


----------



## Ware

I paid $17.32 for a 2 oz bottle of MSM Turf. The label rate for ryegrass fairways is 0.5 oz/acre (0.0115 oz/M) - so like $0.10 per thousand per app. For me, the transitioning herbicide was both the cheapest and least labor intensive aspect of the entire overseeding project.


----------



## DTCC_Turf

But it wasn't free though. All that is fine for a homeowner doing it strictly for fun. It's a different story for a tiny crew on a high school budget with an entire sports complex to maintain wanting to reduce inputs, both environmentally and monetarily. I've gotten a bit off topic, but I wanted to make that point.


----------



## Ware

DTCC_Turf said:


> But it wasn't free though. All that is fine for a homeowner doing it strictly for fun. It's a different story for a tiny crew on a high school budget with an entire sports complex to maintain wanting to reduce inputs, both environmentally and monetarily. I've gotten a bit off topic, but I wanted to make that point.


Yep, and my point is that overseeding a sports field, even with something like Hancock's house blend, is going to cost north of $500/acre for just the seed - before you ever mow it, irrigate it, fertilize it, etc. An 8 oz bottle of MSM Turf will kill the PRG at $3.24/acre. Not free, but an insignificant fraction of the total project cost on any scale. I would bet I wasted more water.


----------



## Visitor

Thanks to all. Will research the aforementioned herbicides and go with with least likely to impact the ivy.


----------



## Ral1121

@Ware

My question is are you planning on overseeding again this fall?


----------



## Ware

Ral1121 said:


> ...My question is are you planning on overseeding again this fall?


That's a good question. 

I would _really_ like to, but there are some things that may preoccupy my free time this fall. I will know more in about a month.


----------



## PokeGrande

I'm not Ware and my lawn is definitely not Ware's; however, I have about 4,500 sq ft of Bermuda I plan to overseed with PRG following Ware's blueprint. I ordered the PhD Blend from Hogan.


----------



## ajmikola

@Ware

I am going to try to overseed this fall to prevent damage to the dormant bermuda from my dog.

I may be wrong but i didnt see anything about winter weed prevention/treatment. I know you cant put down pre-m, so what did you do for weeds?


----------



## Ware

ajmikola said:


> Ware
> 
> I am going to try to overseed this fall to prevent damage to the dormant bermuda from my dog.
> 
> I may be wrong but i didnt see anything about winter weed prevention/treatment. I know you cant put down pre-m, so what did you do for weeds?


I skipped pre-e altogether and didn't have any issues. Alternatively, you could wait the 60 days or whatever and apply it later in the fall.


----------



## Parnell68

As everyone else on here has said numerous times, hell of a job last year on the PRG project.

I found this thread based off a google search and have read almost all the posts from 23 different pages, due to the fact I have been planning on doing the exact thing you did, but wanted to clarify some questions about soil temps and my overall strategy. I live in N. Georgia and the soil temp. throughout a 24 hour average today (9/5/18) was 79° @ 2" depth. At what soil temperature did you end up overseeding with PRG?

Myself and my Neighbor to the right of me both have pretty small lots. Both of our front yards combined go about 2500 sq.ft. combined. We both plan on overseeding the front yards with PRG. Our bermuda is kept at about 5/8" - 3/4" throughout the growing season. I plan is to hit it with Governor G PGR in about a week. Then come back as soon as soil temps hit (from what I have read and understand about seed/soil temps) around 70° - 75° with Clubhouse Blend Perinial Rye seed as well as an organic 5-4-5 fertilizer. From there we planned on doing about the same fertilizer schedule as you did. Then, in the Spring when we start to see some green up in the back yard, kill off the PRG using Negate, and let the Bermuda take back over.

Can you think of anything you might do different, or plan on changing this year from last (if you are overseeding again)?

Again, thanks in advance and great job last year.


----------



## Ware

Parnell68 said:


> Can you think of anything you might do different, or plan on changing this year from last (if you are overseeding again)?


Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. :thumbsup:

I can't think of anything I would necessarily do different. I do think it's good insurance to hit the bermuda with a dose of PGR a couple days before you seed. Also, it's easy to get OCD about soil temps, but looking back now I think my seeding window was probably a little larger than I initially expected. I would try to let the bermuda tell you when the time is right. In my case I knew I wanted to maintain the PRG around 3/4", so it was important to wait until I knew the bermuda would not rebound to that height during the PRG establishment. Does that make sense?


----------



## PokeGrande

Ware said:


> Parnell68 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of anything you might do different, or plan on changing this year from last (if you are overseeding again)?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, I appreciate the kind words. :thumbsup:
> 
> I can't think of anything I would necessarily do different. I do think it's good insurance to hit the bermuda with a dose of PGR a couple days before you seed. Also, it's easy to get OCD about soil temps, but looking back now I think my seeding window was probably a little larger than I initially expected. I would try to let the bermuda tell you when the time is right. In my case I knew I wanted to maintain the PRG around 3/4", so it was important to wait until I knew the bermuda would not rebound to that height during the PRG establishment. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...

I did not ask the question, but this was my concern. The temps look favorable for overseeding PRG but still feel like there is still good bermuda growing weather remaining. Will now target later in September to overseed. I believe Oct 1 was seed down for you last year.


----------



## Ware

PokeGrande said:


> ...Will now target later in September to overseed. I believe Oct 1 was seed down for you last year.


That sounds reasonable. I would just pay attention to your clipping yield and you will get a good feel for when the bermuda starts to hit the brakes. :thumbsup:


----------



## PokeGrande

Ware said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...Will now target later in September to overseed. I believe Oct 1 was seed down for you last year.
> 
> 
> 
> That sounds reasonable. I would just pay attention to your clipping yield and you will get a good feel for when the bermuda starts to hit the brakes. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Would you suggest letting it come out of pgr regulation and not apply again until a couple of days prior to seed down?


----------



## Ware

PokeGrande said:


> Would you suggest letting it come out of pgr regulation and not apply again until a couple of days prior to seed down?


I would keep mine in regulation - you could adjust the rate of your PGR app leading up to the final app to get the timing right.


----------



## PokeGrande

Ware said:


> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you suggest letting it come out of pgr regulation and not apply again until a couple of days prior to seed down?
> 
> 
> 
> I would keep mine in regulation - you could adjust the rate of your PGR app leading up to the final app to get the timing right.
Click to expand...

Thank you, sir.


----------



## Cmeiwes

PokeGrande said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PokeGrande said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would you suggest letting it come out of pgr regulation and not apply again until a couple of days prior to seed down?
> 
> 
> 
> I would keep mine in regulation - you could adjust the rate of your PGR app leading up to the final app to get the timing right.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you, sir.
Click to expand...

This is good information to know!


----------



## 18thhole

Hey @Ware !
I am planning on giving this a shot this year. I have a very dense celebration bermuda lawn mowed at 3/8". After reading through this forum, I have a few questions for you.

When you sprayed the MSM to kill the PRG, did it actually knock it all out? How many apps did you end up having to use? I will be anxious in the spring as well and know that timing is everything. It will probably take a few apps as soil temps begin to warm up. My concern would be having a constant battle with the PRG during the spring to summer season, or worse- all season.

Also- what was your view on the dormant bermuda/ rye mix? 
Last year I had a solid green and actively growing lawn almost to the end of November last year and I expect the same again. I plan to keep using T-Nex (talk about a game changer!) and continue with my foliar apps of Helena Fertilizer every week. That stuff is awesome by the way! Game changer from Milorganite, though it has its place. I expect that I need to seed the PRG in late September but also think the bermuda will continue to thrive. My plan may be to keep mowing at 3/8" or slightly taller as the PRG establishes and as the bermuda goes dormant, raise the cutting height again. On my Toro Greensmaster Flex 2100, i'm limited to 1/2" HOC without the taller HOC kit. My thinking is that possibly the bermuda will stay dormant at 3/8" while I mow the PRG at or just below 1/2".
Any advice from what you experienced?


----------



## wardconnor

Check out @Ware lawn at 5:04


----------



## Reel Low Dad

Ok @Ware late Saturday or early Sunday is my day. Assuming I can get my mowers engine back together and working for one more mow. What setting did you use for the drop spreader?


----------



## Ware

Fistertondeluxe said:


> Ok Ware late Saturday or early Sunday is my day. Assuming I can get my mowers engine back together and working for one more mow. What setting did you use for the drop spreader?


I don't recall what setting I used. I just opened it up until it looked cool, then made passes in different directions until I ran out of seed. :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

wardconnor said:


> Check out Ware lawn at 5:04


Would you look at that!

It really makes me want to overseed - it looks awesome.


----------



## Reel Low Dad

Ware said:


> I don't recall what setting I used. I just opened it up until it looked cool, then made passes in different directions until I ran out of seed. :thumbup:


Ahh the @wardconnor fertilizer application method. Works for me!


----------



## wardconnor

Ware said:


> Fistertondeluxe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ok Ware late Saturday or early Sunday is my day. Assuming I can get my mowers engine back together and working for one more mow. What setting did you use for the drop spreader?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't recall what setting I used. I just opened it up until it looked cool, then made passes in different directions until I ran out of seed. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

So @Ware did you just go according to your mood that day?


----------



## cnet24

@Ware - coming up on a one year anniversary of the project. I know you said you had other things competing for your time now, but I think everyone is wondering- are you going to repeat and seed the front yard this year?


----------



## Ware

cnet24 said:


> Ware - coming up on a one year anniversary of the project. I know you said you had other things competing for your time now, but I think everyone is wondering- are you going to repeat and seed the front yard this year?


Still undecided. I haven't sprayed pre-e yet, so it's possible.


----------



## cnet24

What's the sunlight requirement for PRG? I'm starting to have second thoughts about my project due to the filtered sunlight from the trees and the shortening days.


----------



## ctrav

Ware said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Check out Ware lawn at 5:04
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would you look at that!
> 
> It really makes me want to overseed - it looks awesome.
Click to expand...

Nice job mowing JDub...what advice can you give us mere mortals on how to obtain ninja cutting skills :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

ctrav said:


> Nice job mowing JDub...what advice can you give us mere mortals on how to obtain ninja cutting skills :thumbup:


Mow reel low and often. :thumbup:


----------



## ajmikola

@Ware

I have purchased my seed (i went with annual ryegrass from lowes), i have aerated and i will put down the seed this monday.
Prior to that i will bring the bermuda to .5 inch, then add pgr.

1. Do i need to have a lag time between spraying pgr and seeding the rye? Do i need to wait more than a day? Or can i spray pgr on sunday and seed monday?

2. Will it be bad if it is still a bit warm?

3. How many overseeds do you expect to see this fall? 
I am doing it to prevent my kids and dog from making a mess.


----------



## Ware

ajmikola said:


> I have purchased my seed (i went with annual ryegrass from lowes), i have aerated and i will put down the seed this monday.
> Prior to that i will bring the bermuda to .5 inch, then add pgr.
> 
> 1. Do i need to have a lag time between spraying pgr and seeding the rye? Do i need to wait more than a day? Or can i spray pgr on sunday and seed monday?
> 
> 2. Will it be bad if it is still a bit warm?
> 
> 3. How many overseeds do you expect to see this fall?
> I am doing it to prevent my kids and dog from making a mess.


I hope the annual rye works for you. Note it does not have many of the desirable turf characteristics you get with PRG.

1) Spraying PGR the day before would probably work, but I would personally shoot for a few days before to ensure that the Bermuda is under full regulation on seed down day.

2) On the temp, I would just wait until you are fairly confident that average daily temps are low enough that the Bermuda won't catch up with the ryegrass during germination.

3) I bet there will be several this year - but again, most will be using PRG, not annual. Holding up to traffic is one of those reasons.


----------



## ajmikola

Ware said:


> ajmikola said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have purchased my seed (i went with annual ryegrass from lowes), i have aerated and i will put down the seed this monday.
> Prior to that i will bring the bermuda to .5 inch, then add pgr.
> 
> 1. Do i need to have a lag time between spraying pgr and seeding the rye? Do i need to wait more than a day? Or can i spray pgr on sunday and seed monday?
> 
> 2. Will it be bad if it is still a bit warm?
> 
> 3. How many overseeds do you expect to see this fall?
> I am doing it to prevent my kids and dog from making a mess during winter dormancy.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the annual rye works for you. Note it does not have many of the desirable turf characteristics you get with PRG.
> 
> 1) Spraying PGR the day before would probably work, but I would personally shoot for a few days before to ensure that the Bermuda is under full regulation on seed down day.
> 
> 2) On the temp, I would just wait until you are fairly confident that average daily temps are low enough that the Bermuda won't catch up with the ryegrass during germination.
> 
> 3) I bet there will be several this year - but again, most will be using PRG, not annual. Holding up to traffic is one of those reasons.
Click to expand...

I will return it for prg then, thank you, i didnt think there was that much of a difference. Lowes didnt have any prg at the time.


----------



## Iriasj2009

ajmikola said:


> I will return it for prg then, thank you, i didnt think there was that much of a difference. Lowes didnt have any prg at the time.


Big difference between ARG and PRG. 
ARG grows MUCH faster and has more of a lime green color. I really dislike how "wet" the grass is. It gets messy real quick. Anywho good luck!!!! Can't wait to see pics


----------



## Spammage

@ajmikola was there a reason you chose annual ryegrass? Perennial ryegrass provides better color and doesn't grow as fast. I would take that back if I were you.

edit - I guess I should have read until the end of the thread, but instead chose to beat that dead horse... :lol:


----------



## ajmikola

Yeah, i thought it was all the same., will return the arg, I will have to order the PRG online.


----------



## Reel Low Dad

Just commenting to thank @Ware for the inspiration and to nudge him along into doing this again. 


And I can't wait to see what it looks like at 19/64


----------



## wardconnor

ajmikola said:


> Yeah, i thought it was all the same., will return the arg, I will have to order the PRG online.


yes... good choice. Return it and get the PRG. That stuff that I showed in that video is some good stuff. Get it from Hancock Seed out of FL.


----------



## ajmikola

I just ordered the hancock blend of PRG. The plan is to overseed next week before the rain/cold front come in.


----------



## Steverino

I almost posted this pic in the dominating thread. On the left is one section of Bermuda freshly cut but undisturbed. On the right is my verticut seed bed for PRG. In the distance is the neighboring lawn. I started on the late afternoon 9-17-18. I saw germination three days later in the most bare areas. Seed is the Champion also with the new blend same as the poster a little more than a month ago. I don't have irrigation, and it's a pain with what I have but I think with my timing from the residual hurricane moisture, I have been able to keep it moist with only one pass before work and one pass after work with a tripod and hose end sprayer. I have been doing the difficult irregular areas and have two rectangles I'll hit once these areas don't require as much time.
And *YES* *Thanks for the inspiration, Ware!* I figure if it doesn't work out, I can always selectivly kill off the PRG and have dormant Bermuda for the winter... :|


----------



## Ware

A Famed Professor Retires, Overseeding And Warm-Season Grasses
SEPTEMBER 21, 2018
By Brian Whitlark, agronomist, West Region

"...Aggressive vertical mowing during overseeding -

Cutting stolons with aggressive vertical mowing when overseeding can eliminate 80-85 percent of stolon buds. Cut buds are lost growing points that bermudagrass can't use to recover from overseeding come spring.

Early overseeding -

Ideally, overseeding should commence when soil temperatures at a 4-inch depth dip to 74-75 degrees Fahrenheit and overnight lows drop into the 50s. Overseeding when bermudagrass is still actively growing forces the turf to reallocate food reserves to regenerating leaves and stolons, which occurs at the expense of rhizomes and crowns. Interestingly, when looking back at weather data from the past two years, the ideal overseeding date in the Phoenix area was about the middle of October and the first week of November in 2016 and 2017, respectively. Unfortunately, most courses are forced to overseed too early so they can reopen for play when winter visitors return..."


----------



## Steverino

Interesting article, thanks Ware. It also led me to this article, regarding the back side of an overseed season:
http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/course-care/regional-updates/west-region/2018/three-strikes-and-bermudagrass-is-out.html


----------



## Ware

I verticut mine and didn't notice any recovery issues in the spring, but I guess it makes sense.


----------



## ajmikola

@Ware

Got my new earthway 2600, 50lb bag of prg (got the less expensive hancock seed blend) and 2 bags of peat to sprinkle over the seed to give it a little insulation and keep it moist.

Still debating on when to put it down. The cold front bringing cooler temps is over north alabama as i am typing this. Tomorrow is a wash but maybe friday or sat.

I sprayed pgr on the yard 2 days ago, and as stated previously, i core aerated 1.5 weeks ago.

Man i'm excited. Pics forthcoming. Thx for the inspiration.


----------



## Ware

ajmikola said:


> @Ware
> 
> Got my new earthway 2600, 50lb bag of prg (got the less expensive hancock seed blend) and 2 bags of peat to sprinkle over the seed to give it a little insulation and keep it moist.
> 
> Still debating on when to put it down. The cold front bringing cooler temps is over north alabama as i am typing this. Tomorrow is a wash but maybe friday or sat.
> 
> I sprayed pgr on the yard 2 days ago, and as stated previously, i core aerated 1.5 weeks ago.
> 
> Man i'm excited. Pics forthcoming. Thx for the inspiration.


Awesome - can't wait to see it!

I think I'm going to have to live vicariously through everyone else this year. As much as I would like to, an overseed is just not in the cards this fall. :thumbsup:


----------



## cnet24

@Ware it looks like your original link to the MSM herbicide is old- can you confirm if this is the correct herbicide?

Also- I tried to get this to come up under the affiliate link, but couldn't figure out how to get to this page via that link. Feel free to update my link with the affiliate from DoMyOwn.

Came home yesterday and my seedlings at sprouted overnight! Going to go ahead and order the MSM before spring time to have on hand.


----------



## Ware

Good catch @cnet24. I updated the links.

I haven't had a chance to update the links at the top of the page, but TLF just partnered with Solutions Pest & Lawn as well - and it looks like they are actually a little cheaper on this product (same free shipping).

MSM Turf | Solutions Pest & Lawn
MSM Turf | Do My Own


----------



## cnet24

Thanks! Looking forward to mowing all winter now...


----------



## Durso81

So thank you @Ware I have been wanting to do this for awhile and seeing you do this pushed me to do it this year. I over seeded with PRG, I did mine a little early as the family and I were going out of town and that meant no foot traffic or dogs for 10 days. Which I felt would be good for it. So I seeded on 9/12.

Yard on the 12th after scalping down to 1/2". 


When I got back on 9/22, came in great threw some more down in some thin areas


9/26 first cut, mowing tall, haven't totally decided on what height I want to mow at yet. This was 3" was mowing Bermuda at 3/4".


----------



## Ware

Durso81 said:


> So thank you @Ware I have been wanting to do this for awhile and seeing you do this pushed me to do it this year. I over seeded with PRG, I did mine a little early as the family and I were going out of town and that meant no foot traffic or dogs for 10 days. Which I felt would be good for it. So I seeded on 9/12.
> 
> Yard on the 12th after scalping down to 1/2".
> 
> 
> When I got back on 9/22, came in great threw some more down in some thin areas
> 
> 
> 9/26 first cut, mowing tall, haven't totally decided on what height I want to mow at yet. This was 3" was mowing Bermuda at 3/4".


Nice! :thumbup:


----------



## Ware

Pre-e went down today - no PRG for me this year.


----------



## OKCnoob

First post here on TLF. Have been following for a while and finally joined back in March. I drooled over all the yards and finally pulled the trigger on a Tru-Cut H20, dont know why I waited so long. My yard is still very much a work in progress but I'm enjoying the hell out of it! Thank you all for all the knowledge and info shared.

Planning on over seeding with PRG - I have scalped and dethatched my lawn but missed my planned window this weekend - time got away from me. Looking at the forecast now should I do it today or wait until next weekend when temps drop a bit? Will the upper 80's be too hot for the PRG? My bermuda growth has slowed a good amount over the last few weeks.


----------



## graemegb

OKCnoob said:


> First post here on TLF. Have been following for a while and finally joined back in March. I drooled over all the yards and finally pulled the trigger on a Tru-Cut H20, dont know why I waited so long. My yard is still very much a work in progress but I'm enjoying the hell out of it! Thank you all for all the knowledge and info shared.
> 
> Planning on over seeding with PRG - I have scalped and dethatched my lawn but missed my planned window this weekend - time got away from me. Looking at the forecast now should I do it today or wait until next weekend when temps drop a bit? Will the upper 80's be too hot for the PRG? My bermuda growth has slowed a good amount over the last few weeks.


I think you are good to go now. I am in the Tulsa area and overseeded last Monday. It's filling in nicely now!


----------



## wfgScott

I am going to try the SOS Maxx by Barenburg. https://www.barusa.com/professional-turf/products/sos-2.htm Download the brochure for the best info on the varieties.. Yes its an annual, but with about an acre to do I feel what I sacrifice in turf quality I will gain in spring transition and ease of establishment. I could go with the SOS 211 that is a 50/50 mix of the turf type annual and PRG. For what its worth the Maxx is only about 25% less than Champions GQ. I will try to update down the road.


----------



## jakemauldin

@Ware I appreciate you documenting this! It was informative and a fun read. Looking forward to overseeding this fall.


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## Bmossin

jakemauldin said:


> @Ware I appreciate you documenting this! It was informative and a fun read. Looking forward to overseeding this fall.


I would be hesitant doing it the first year after just putting seed down this season. I did it, and then basically re-seeded my bermuda again the next year. Take the first full year to get what you put down really established and strong.


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## justin144

Going to give this a shot in October with some PRG over 1300sqft. 
1. Suggestions on spreading peat moss for the seed? Yay or nay?
2. Should I use a peat spreader, or a rake? 
3. I've seen some people have issues if the peat moss dries up. I'm concerned about this happening later in the future when I'm not watering as frequently. Is that a concern or not?


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## Ware

justin144 said:


> Going to give this a shot in October with some PRG over 1300sqft.
> 1. Suggestions on spreading peat moss for the seed? Yay or nay?
> 2. Should I use a peat spreader, or a rake?
> 3. I've seen some people have issues if the peat moss dries up. I'm concerned about this happening later in the future when I'm not watering as frequently. Is that a concern or not?


I did not use peat moss - I just gently raked the seed down into the canopy with the back side of a leaf rake.


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## rclark227

Thanks for the detailed project planning, John. I can not wait to see the results! Good Luck!


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## stogie1020

Whew... I just read all 26 pages of this thread...

What amazing info, thanks Ware!


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## Ware

stogie1020 said:


> Whew... I just read all 26 pages of this thread...
> 
> What amazing info, thanks Ware!


Thanks! Hope it was helpful! :thumbup:


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## Smartluck

I apologize if this was covered in the thread; but how much did you have to water during the colder months after it was established?


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## Ware

Smartluck said:


> I apologize if this was covered in the thread; but how much did you have to water during the colder months after it was established?


I didn't water after it was established - but we average 3-4" of rainfall a month here during the winter months. So that along with the cooler weather was sufficient.


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## Canuck Mike

Very cool project, I had started one last week but not nearly as diverse. 
This is my PRG on day 7. Leaf hight is 2.5" 
and what's cool about the glass container is to see the roots reaching the bottom. 3" from soil surface. I wish I has chosen a deeper container.


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## Canuck Mike

Canuck Mike said:


> Very cool project, I had started one last week but not nearly as diverse.
> This is my PRG on day 7. Leaf hight is 2.5"
> and what's cool about the glass container is to see the roots reaching the bottom. 3" from soil surface. I wish I has chosen a deeper container.


My apologies this post was meant to go on fuzzewuzze's thread "Science! Testing Turf Grass"

My bad.


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## gustavo

Hola Ware´s,
I stared my lawn project last summer when I found this forum, I didn´t know anything about this sience. My Bermuda was planted late summer 2019 but I overseed with PGR as you recommened here in this forum. But now I´m in trouble because I didn´t spary the MSM herbicide and didn´t put any pre emergent. Last week was very warm, we had one day with an ambient temp of 104 F!

I´m plannning to over seed bermuda, my seed is comming next week and my questions are if my ground temp is 78 right now, should I put preemergent or spray the MSM? If I spray will that afect the germination of my new seed?

I live in Monterrey, México, arround 150 miles south McAllen Tx. I´m attaching some pictures, the last picture is today. Thanks.


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## Ware

Hola @gustavo

You should not need to overseed the bermuda with bermuda seed - it will spread on its own with proper care. I would apply a pre-emergent to prevent new weeds and work to get the bermuda you have to spread.

If you still have rye that needs to be killed, you could use an herbicide like Celsius WG or Certainty. Both of those would kill the ryegrass, and will not harm the bermuda much when the temperatures are high.


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## walk1355

@Ware 
I am planning to try this this winter and had a question. I have both Certainty and Celsius already in my arsenal. With that said, would you still kill off with the MSM? If so, why? Is it more effective when it's cooler?


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## Ware

walk1355 said:


> @Ware
> I am planning to try this this winter and had a question. I have both Certainty and Celsius already in my arsenal. With that said, would you still kill off with the MSM? If so, why? Is it more effective when it's cooler?


The MSM was recommended to me, so that's what I used. I think all of those are labeled to kill ryegrass though, so they should work; however, I can't speak to their effectiveness. The 2oz bottle of MSM is pretty cheap and it goes a long way. I think it will also kill some winter broadleaf stuff.


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## Passat774

Any plans to do it this year



walk1355 said:


> @Ware ??


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## Ware

Passat774 said:


> Any plans to do it this year





walk1355 said:


> @Ware ??


No. I really thought about it, but we're in the process of building a new home (framing starts this week), so that is going to demand a lot of our attention this winter.


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## Alex_18

@Ware Nice job on this. you have inspired me to try this on my back yard this winter. i ordered my seed this morning and am following your guide. i live in south LA where the bermuda never really goes 100% dormant all winter. we get the tiger striping but never really a full brown lawn, i usually still mow once or twice a month but its mainly just a " clean up cut" to bring everything down to the same level. my question is this...do you think the fact that the bermuda doesnt go completely dormant mess with my progress or even coming into the spring have a harder time making the transition? i plan in killing it off with MSM as soon as i get a good green up with my bermuda. thanks in advance


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## Ware

Alex_18 said:


> @Ware Nice job on this. you have inspired me to try this on my back yard this winter. i ordered my seed this morning and am following your guide. i live in south LA where the bermuda never really goes 100% dormant all winter. we get the tiger striping but never really a full brown lawn, i usually still mow once or twice a month but its mainly just a " clean up cut" to bring everything down to the same level. my question is this...do you think the fact that the bermuda doesnt go completely dormant mess with my progress or even coming into the spring have a harder time making the transition? i plan in killing it off with MSM as soon as i get a good green up with my bermuda. thanks in advance


No I think you will be just fine. :thumbup:


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## Owens_Geo

so what's the thought process on Zoysia, any different than B? I have Geo that I maintain at 1/2. I'm not thinking about verticutting, just scalping and seeding. Let me know if anyone has any reason that this is a no go for zoysia.

thanks!


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## Ware

Owens_Geo said:


> so what's the thought process on Zoysia, any different than B? I have Geo that I maintain at 1/2. I'm not thinking about verticutting, just scalping and seeding. Let me know if anyone has any reason that this is a no go for zoysia.
> 
> thanks!


@DJLCN overseeded some zoysia. Here is his journal.


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## Ware

Bumping this thread because I found my backyard overseed while messing around in MS Flight Simulator on the Xbox this evening. 

Has anyone ordered their seed for this fall? If not, let this be your motivation. :thumbup:

I like having more space, but I'm starting to miss my reel low lawn.



An old shot from my drone:


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## FlaDave

Wait so flight sim uses actual satellite images or was this a mod? Sorry I'm not up to par on video games. The last systems I played are N64/PS1. My kids however are all about it.


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## Hapa512

Ware said:


> Bumping this thread because I found my backyard overseed while messing around in MS Flight Simulator on the Xbox this evening.
> 
> Has anyone ordered their seed for this fall? If not, let this be your motivation. :thumbup:
> 
> I like having more space, but I'm starting to miss my reel low lawn.


Handcock was out of PRG these last few weeks they now have Champion GQ in stock now. I heard through another wholesaler that seed crops have had lower yields this year due to weather. So I'll be ordering my seed this week !!


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## Ware

FlaDave said:


> Wait so flight sim uses actual satellite images or was this a mod? Sorry I'm not up to par on video games. The last systems I played are N64/PS1. My kids however are all about it.


I'm not a gamer either, but I was able to snag an Xbox Series X before Christmas last year when they were hard to get (maybe they still are?). I play around with it every once in a while, but I'm a novice.

But to answer your question, yes, in the World Map game mode you can take off and land just about anywhere, and it uses satellite data from Bing Maps.



> …With the power of satellite data from Bing Maps and cloud-based AI using Azure, you'll travel the entire planet in amazing detail with over 37 thousand airports, 2 million cities, 1.5 billion buildings, real mountain ranges, roads, trees, rivers, animals, traffic, and more…
> 
> …The world map now features satellite imagery, map labels, and main Point of Interest (POI) names to make exploring the world (and even finding your house) as easy as possible. We extended this capability into the flight experience itself and users can now activate the POI labels during a flight, so they can get a sense for the spatial relationships between cities, mountains, and other landmarks…


https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2021/07/27/microsoft-flight-simulator-available-today-on-xbox-series-x-s-and-xbox-game-pass/


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## Amoo316

How did you resist the urge to "land" in that back yard?


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## FlaDave

Ware said:


> FlaDave said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait so flight sim uses actual satellite images or was this a mod? Sorry I'm not up to par on video games. The last systems I played are N64/PS1. My kids however are all about it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not a gamer either, but I was able to snag an Xbox Series X before Christmas last year when they were hard to get (maybe they still are?). I play around with it every once in a while, but I'm a novice.
> 
> But to answer your question, yes, in the World Map game mode you can take off and land just about anywhere, and it uses satellite data from Bing Maps.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> …With the power of satellite data from Bing Maps and cloud-based AI using Azure, you'll travel the entire planet in amazing detail with over 37 thousand airports, 2 million cities, 1.5 billion buildings, real mountain ranges, roads, trees, rivers, animals, traffic, and more…
> 
> …The world map now features satellite imagery, map labels, and main Point of Interest (POI) names to make exploring the world (and even finding your house) as easy as possible. We extended this capability into the flight experience itself and users can now activate the POI labels during a flight, so they can get a sense for the spatial relationships between cities, mountains, and other landmarks…
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2021/07/27/microsoft-flight-simulator-available-today-on-xbox-series-x-s-and-xbox-game-pass/
Click to expand...

That is really cool. :thumbup:


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## wiseowl

That's fantastic @Ware

I've been waiting for the satellite imagery to update hoping it gets a day I've got my good stripes down 😂😂


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## adidasUNT8

Hapa512 said:


> Ware said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bumping this thread because I found my backyard overseed while messing around in MS Flight Simulator on the Xbox this evening.
> 
> Has anyone ordered their seed for this fall? If not, let this be your motivation. :thumbup:
> 
> I like having more space, but I'm starting to miss my reel low lawn.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Handcock was out of PRG these last few weeks they now have Champion GQ in stock now. I heard through another wholesaler that seed crops have had lower yields this year due to weather. So I'll be ordering my seed this week !!
Click to expand...

I wonder if that's why the prices are a little higher? Maybe it's me, but 50 pounds for $128? Speaking of which, how many pounds per 1k are you planning on using?


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## Alex_18

After a successful trial run on overseeding my back yard last year, ill be ordering my seed this week to do my entire yard this year


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