# Overseeding Bermuda with Tall Fescue



## lvthomascrown123 (Jul 11, 2019)

I have a mostly tall fescue lawn. No offense to any of ya'll, but I really am not a fan of the areas that have been taken over by bermuda. I want it all uniform, all tall fescue.

Question is (and it may be a dumb one but go easy on me): Will regular overseeding of the bermuda with tall fescue seed this Fall (and in the future) help crowd out the bermuda? Or is my only option removing the bermuda and starting fresh with tall fescue seed in those areas? I have a feeling that its the latter but I'd love it if I'm wrong.

Thanks a million, really appreciate learning more about the fine art of being a lawn care nut.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I have never grown fescue, but I don't think you would ever be able to completely crowd out the bermuda. I would kill everything first, then re-establish with fescue if it were me.


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## critterdude311 (Apr 21, 2018)

lvthomascrown123 said:


> I have a mostly tall fescue lawn. No offense to any of ya'll, but I really am not a fan of the areas that have been taken over by bermuda. I want it all uniform, all tall fescue.
> 
> Question is (and it may be a dumb one but go easy on me): Will regular overseeding of the bermuda with tall fescue seed this Fall (and in the future) help crowd out the bermuda? Or is my only option removing the bermuda and starting fresh with tall fescue seed in those areas? I have a feeling that its the latter but I'd love it if I'm wrong.
> 
> Thanks a million, really appreciate learning more about the fine art of being a lawn care nut.


You will not be able to crowd out the Bermuda with Tall Fescue. Your best bet is to nuke the entire yard while the Bermuda is still actively growing. It will probably take several applications, so it might be a bit too late to get started this year depending on your local climate. August 1st is usually a good start date for nuking Bermuda (3 apps spaced 2 weeks apart) if the goal is to switch over to an all Tall Fescue yard. Don't rush the process if you aren't ready this year, just hang on until next August. Reason being, if you don't kill all of the Bermuda it will be back.


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## lvthomascrown123 (Jul 11, 2019)

Thanks for the input guys, I suspected that might be the case.

Just out of curiosity, why is it not possible to crowd our Bermuda with fescue?


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## Quitplayingcrabgrass (Apr 3, 2019)

It'd be like a basketball player trying to play rugby... I think. Idk never watched rugby.

OK fine I'll try to be helpful. Basically Bermuda spreads aggressively both under and above ground (ie. making it thicker). It's also very hard to kill. People have been known to put feet of fill dirt on top of Bermuda and still have it poke through.

If you are in an area where Bermuda is growing, it's probably going to be too hot for fescue to survive long term (which is why most folks overseed it annually or bi-annually).


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

lvthomascrown123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys, I suspected that might be the case.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why is it not possible to crowd our Bermuda with fescue?


Like @Quitplayingcrabgrass said, Bermuda grass has the advantage of spreading above and below the soil. Fescue grows up and down. It does not spread laterally. Any thin spot in your fescue is a spot for Bermuda to spread. Also the things you do to help strengthen your fescue (other than mowing tall) will strengthen the Bermuda as well. In the heat of summer when fescue struggles, Bermuda is at its strongest. But in the cooler weather when Bermuda slows down, fescue is not able to take advantage and spread. This is why fescue people overseed every year. Bermuda is an alpha grass that will take over without some kind of chemical or mechanical intervention. And even then the odds are not in fescues favor.


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## Darrell_KC (Mar 20, 2019)

Just confirming what the guys said. About the only thing that will slow bermuda down is shade. If you were to try to overseed bermuda into tall fescue, youd have some difficulty because the tall fescue would shade out the bermuda seedlings. However, your case is the opposite. If you try to seed fescue on top of bermuda, the bermuda will choke out the fescue seed and never give it a chance to establish. And where you would be seeding, are open gaps that are perfect for bermuda to get going.

Mine wasnt tall fescue, but I played with a bermuda/Kentucky Blue Grass mix in my yard this year. I planted some areas as just KBG, just bermuda, and a mix of the two. In the mixed spots, the KBG germinated first and in many spots the grass grew up and shaded the bermuda before the bermuda had a chance to establish. However, in other spots where the KBG couldnt get going or were bermuda only, the bermuda took over and quickly began filling in gaps in the yard. Then, my KBG grass slowed down in summer heat and the bermuda began out competing the KBG. Thats what convinced me to just stick with bermuda and let it do its thing.


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## creinle11 (Mar 25, 2019)

I think Pete from GCI Turf on Youtube uses Pylex on his fescue yards that get Bermuda in them. I don't think it really kills the Bermuda all of the way, but helps with management of the invasion. He just put pictures on his Instagram today of results of Bermuda getting treated with Pylex.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

creinle11 said:


> I think Pete from GCI Turf on Youtube uses Pylex on his fescue yards that get Bermuda in them. I don't think it really kills the Bermuda all of the way, but helps with management of the invasion. He just put pictures on his Instagram today of results of Bermuda getting treated with Pylex.


one of the episodes of @thegrassfactor lawn and garden show he talked about that. I think it was 3 applications of Plyex in a row (forget how far apart) and you need to do it for 2-3 YEARS to get full suppression. (why I remember this given I live in florida and will never have Fescue, I have no idea)


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## andymac7 (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm actually surprised you have TF in Vegas. It shrivels up here in the Ohio river valley in summer, so I'd hate to see it in your summers. But still, it's gonna be a tall task to beat bermuda in that type of heat. Like others have said, if you have trees the shade might help slow the bermuda down, otherwise you will be spending lots of money on seed, not to mention a hefty water bill. If you like a taller grass you could try zoysia. Zeon might look pretty spectacular out there. It's much more heat/drought tolerant than any fescue.


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## BermudaBoy (Jun 27, 2019)

ktgrok said:


> creinle11 said:
> 
> 
> > I think Pete from GCI Turf on Youtube uses Pylex on his fescue yards that get Bermuda in them. I don't think it really kills the Bermuda all of the way, but helps with management of the invasion. He just put pictures on his Instagram today of results of Bermuda getting treated with Pylex.
> ...


I saw one of Pete's updates. He said that he's seen Common Bermuda come back after years of suppression in a few instances. Common Bermuda is like herpes. You can treat it but it's never going away.


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## adgattoni (Oct 3, 2017)

lvthomascrown123 said:


> Thanks for the input guys, I suspected that might be the case.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why is it not possible to crowd our Bermuda with fescue?


Bermuda is low growing, but it will grow vertically to reach the sun if mixed into taller grass. You will simply see a mixture of 4 inch tall fescue and shaggy looking bermuda about a half inch shorter than that.


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## lvthomascrown123 (Jul 11, 2019)

You guys rock, I really appreciate all of the feedback and detailed explanation for why it's the case!

Re growing TF in Vegas, I know it's not advisable based on the fact that it's a cool season turf and I live in a very arid region. However, I have a very mature property that provides lots of shade, as well as a finely tuned sprinkler system (24 zones with excellent pressure and coverage) that, along with some hard work (and a hefty water bill) helps keep the vast majority of my TF looking very good, even in the summer. With 13k+ sq. ft of lawn, there's really no way that I'd consider a reno with a different type of turf. My aim is to control various issues that pop up (fungus being the issue right now, I think). My TF looks good. My bermuda, on the other hand, looks really rough, which is weird because you'd think it'd be thriving in this heat.

If anyone is inclined, I posted yesterday about some issues I'm having with my bermuda, here's a link:

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12887

I'd really really appreciate if anyone can take a look at the pictures I posted and give me any feedback as to what you see.

Mike


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

OP, I have tried to rid a TTTF lawn of bermuda before. I nuked the whole thing, with 5-7 applications, and used the best selective controls available (fluazifop, triclopyr, and fenoxaprop) throughout the following summer. They don't work, at least not well enough to beat bermuda back. I went through this twice and thought I had the game won. Nope.

You will not be able to kill the bermuda. And you will not be able to control it without killing the TTTF. People will tell you that you can if you do X, Y, and Z, but it will never work. You may think it has worked when you have a dark green carpet in June with no sign of bermuda, but look more closely in August. It'll be there.

Bermuda comes back. It just. Comes. Back.

I wish you well, but I would reconsider if I were you. I'm in a new city now but still in the transition zone, and my builder is going to sod bermuda. I am somewhat relieved that the Devil's Weed is going to be my friend instead of my nemesis.


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## lvthomascrown123 (Jul 11, 2019)

@Bermuda_Rooster

Seeing how you're a Bermuda fan, care to take a look at the pictures I posted of mine and let me know what you see/think? It's the heat of the summer here in the desert and (despite fert. and iron and water) my bermuda isn't really greening up all that much. There are also several medium sized areas where the grass looks like drought stress but it's getting enough water. Thoughts?

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12887


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

BermudaBoy said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > creinle11 said:
> ...


You can say that again... I mean if the after school specials I watched as a kid are true.


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## RDZed (Jul 13, 2018)

BermudaBoy said:


> ktgrok said:
> 
> 
> > creinle11 said:
> ...


The main rhizome runners can go deep, real deep. I've excavated on jobsites and pulled common Bermuda rhizomes at 8 feet deep.


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## Rooster (Aug 19, 2019)

lvthomascrown123 said:


> @Bermuda_Rooster
> Seeing how you're a Bermuda fan, care to take a look at the pictures I posted of mine and let me know what you see/think? It's the heat of the summer here in the desert and (despite fert. and iron and water) my bermuda isn't really greening up all that much. There are also several medium sized areas where the grass looks like drought stress but it's getting enough water. Thoughts?
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12887


Oh, I'm not sure I'd call myself a fan. A believer though, for sure. Unfortunately I've never tried to grow a bermuda lawn so I'm afraid I'm not much help to you. I'm not sure what you have going on in your bermuda. How high has it been mowed?


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## lvthomascrown123 (Jul 11, 2019)

Too high. Can't say for sure though. The Bermuda is mixed in with my fescue (and I mow high in the summer for the fescue's sake) so I just cut it all at one height, which is goood for the fescue but bad for the Bermuda.


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Bermuda_Rooster said:


> OP, I have tried to rid a TTTF lawn of bermuda before. I nuked the whole thing, with 5-7 applications, and used the best selective controls available (fluazifop, triclopyr, and fenoxaprop) throughout the following summer. They don't work, at least not well enough to beat bermuda back. I went through this twice and thought I had the game won. Nope.
> 
> You will not be able to kill the bermuda. And you will not be able to control it without killing the TTTF. People will tell you that you can if you do X, Y, and Z, but it will never work. You may think it has worked when you have a dark green carpet in June with no sign of bermuda, but look more closely in August. It'll be there.
> 
> ...


Ive had Bermuda come back even after hitting it with roundup multiple times


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Wfrobinette said:


> Bermuda_Rooster said:
> 
> 
> > OP, I have tried to rid a TTTF lawn of bermuda before. I nuked the whole thing, with 5-7 applications, and used the best selective controls available (fluazifop, triclopyr, and fenoxaprop) throughout the following summer. They don't work, at least not well enough to beat bermuda back. I went through this twice and thought I had the game won. Nope.
> ...


Same. It's why I seeded bermuda, lol. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
Also, it blows my mind that it seems everything wants to eat or kill bermuda (sod webworms, armyworms, mole crickets, fungus, etc) and yet nothing actually can kill it, at least not anything man made. Those armyworms sure did try.


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## fp_911 (Apr 10, 2017)

ktgrok said:


> Wfrobinette said:
> 
> 
> > Bermuda_Rooster said:
> ...


Armyworms only eat the leaves though so the grass just down but not out.

When we first moved to our home the yard got consumed by armyworms. Of course the builder didn't offer a warranty on the sod so I had to eradicate it. I still have the same grass and it only took until the next growing season to have it bounce back. Really amazing but if you don't want it what a pain it is to manage!


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