# aug0211's KBG Midwest Reno (Bewitched)



## aug0211

Hi Everyone,

I had this thread over at another forum originally, but as I've migrated over here, I figure I'll post it up again 

I decided to take on my first reno project this year at my home in Ohio. It's a roughly 7.5k sq. ft. residential lawn that was previously a contractor mix. I bought the home last fall and decided to go all in this fall.

After research, I selected KBG to best fit my needs - light foot traffic, irrigation available (had it installed this summer), commitment to maintenance, and spreading ability. From there, I selected a bewitched monostand due to the shade tolerance, performance in my region, and my strong desire to a uniform lawn. I know it's a risk, so I did not go in blind in that sense.

*1. MOW* - I started my prep in late July with getting the lawn to a manageable height - looking back, I went too low (should have scalped after my glypho was applied. Rookie mistake. I did replace my blades after this to make sure I had fresh ones before my first cut on the new lawn.

*2. GLYPHO* - I followed up with Glypho round 1 immediate after my first scalp, and got a very good kill. I also way over applied the glypho  More on that later.

*3. ROCKS* - From there, I was hand-picking rocks anywhere I saw them (per ken-n-nancy's advice). Every day, I picked up rocks - filling up a few 5 gallon buckets in the end.

*4. FALLOW* - I also started fallowing at this point - 4x/day watering.

*5. GLYPHO ROUND 2* - Next up, the second spray - nothing to exciting here. Again, I way over applied the glypho.

* 6. MOW AGAIN* - Final mow, to make sure I had everything taken down

*7. DETHATCH* - I had concerns that my mower was not scalping low enough to give good soil contact, so I rented a dethatched and ran it over the entire space. I was very nervous about disturbing the weed seeds, but was more nervous about not having soil contact - so I went for it.

*8. FALLOW* - Next up, I fallowed again, with plans to spot spray glypho if needed, anywhere weeds came up after the dethatching. I did not end up seeing any, so there was no more glypho applied.

*9. TOO MUCH GLYPHO? NOPE!* - At this point, I made a comment on my thread on how much glypho I had used, and got a lot of concerned remarks about using too much and doing damage - it turned out to be no concern. Scott's confirmed there was no issue and I did not have germination issues.

*10. SEED DOWN - August 25, 2017* - Next up, seed down at 2.5 lbs/, mixed with the SoilMoist seed coat

*11. FERTILIZER* - Scott's Starter with Mesotrione

*12. ROLL* - Rolled seed lightly into soil

*13. PEAT* - Top dressed with peat moss - underestimated how much work that would be!

*14. WATER* - Water like crazy (4x/day)

*15. RE-SEED* - At roughly 30 days, I used a metal leaf rake to rake bare spots (remember, I was worried about my grass not being scalped low enough - and re-seeded those bare spots (no peat moss).​
I had germination starting at 7 days. I'll put together some photos to follow in the next post showing the progress along the way.

What I'd do differently next time:
*1. TENACITY* - I wish I had gone the route of spraying tenacity opposed to the Scott's starter + mesotrione

*2. DISTURB SOIL, EARLY* - I would have disturbed the heck out of my soil with dethatching, power raking, and aeration 6 weeks before seed down - then leveled and fallowed non stop until my seed down date.

*3. LEVEL* - Mentioned above - more time spent leveling/filling in low spots - a dead lawn is the time to do this. I did a couple spots, but not everything

*4. IMPROVE IRRIGATION* - Be more of a stickler on the irrigation company  I had somewhat uneven coverage with a couple dry spots that caused me problems. I also wish I had spent more time getting to know my irrigation system and making sure I had the perfect watering schedule​


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## aug0211

I really wish I had taken more photos along the way. I'm generally a pretty regimented/organized person, so it's unlike me to not have taken photos at regular intervals. The photos I do have are actually quite terrible, too :-( I'll try to do better going forward.

Here's what I have:

*Prep - Scalping/post kill*




*Day 50 - Right before a mow*
Comparing my bright/light green color to neighbor's darker color (mature contractor's mix - side yard) and an under maintained HOA contractor's mix (back)




*Day 57 - Last night, bad angle and at night*
This looks better than it really is!





More to come - including the front and side yards (side yards are struggling a bit from over watering and lack of sun, I think).


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## jimmy

Great to have you here! I was reading your thread on the other site and was wondering where you were at. You weren't treated well over there by some members, so I'm glad you found TLF.

I know you over-applied the glyphosate, but my understanding is that glyphosate degrades so quickly once sprayed, that it shouldn't be a problem. Some people even apply it the night before or same day as seeding. Even a higher rate should still degrade the same speed. I'm glad it wasn't an issue for you.

What issues did you have the with Scott's w/mesotrione? Was is because you disturbed the soil so late in the process? I used it and had only a bit of crabgrass, but it was manageable enough to pick by hand, though I didn't disturb the soil at all. Honestly, with all the work I did on the seed down day, I was glad to not have to pull out my backpack sprayer and do another app.

Looking forward to your photos!


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## aug0211

jimmy said:


> Great to have you here! I was reading your thread on the other site and was wondering where you were at. You weren't treated well over there by some members, so I'm glad you found TLF.
> 
> I know you over-applied the glyphosate, but my understanding is that glyphosate degrades so quickly once sprayed, that it shouldn't be a problem. Some people even apply it the night before or same day as seeding. Even a higher rate should still degrade the same speed. I'm glad it wasn't an issue for you.
> 
> What issues did you have the with Scott's w/mesotrione? Was is because you disturbed the soil so late in the process? I used it and had only a bit of crabgrass, but it was manageable enough to pick by hand, though I didn't disturb the soil at all. Honestly, with all the work I did on the seed down day, I was glad to not have to pull out my backpack sprayer and do another app.
> 
> Looking forward to your photos!


Thanks for the warm welcome! I did definitely over apply the glypho, and got lucky that the only impact was to my own time and wallet 

I shouldn't say I had issues with the Scott's + meotrione; that wouldn't be fair. I opted for that route because I learned that I have a lot of practice to do on the spraying front (the whole glypho thing...). With how much I disturbed the soil, I should have foreseen more weeds popping up and opted for spraying, which I understand to be a better post emergent than the granules (due to leaf contact).

My disturbing the soil did seem to bring out a fair amount of weed seed - I'm still not completely sure what all I have, though g-man has been helpful in IDing some in the weed ID thread (so far, it looks like Annual Rye and Orchard Grass).

I spent about 2 hours hand picking weeds last week before mowing. I got a lot of what I think is Orchard grass, though I'm sure more will crop up that I missed. I wish I had more experience with this, as I suspect I actually have only a little bewitched and quite a bit of other stuff coming in.

I really wish I had been better about photos - I thought I had loads more, but alas, everything I have is above.

I'll get better photos sometime this week from above for better angles - I have some definite bare spots and am going to look for advice on whether to put down pre-m over the entire lawn going in to next season and hope for good spreading next spring, or skip pre-m on the bare spots and go for a spring seeding.


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## Pete1313

jimmy said:


> I know you over-applied the glyphosate, but my understanding is that glyphosate degrades so quickly once sprayed, that it shouldn't be a problem. Some people even apply it the night before or same day as seeding. Even a higher rate should still degrade the same speed. I'm glad it wasn't an issue for you.


Agreed. Should be no problem. I sprayed my last round the night before with no issues.

Subscribed! Looking forward to some more pictures and updates!


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## SNOWBOB11

Bewitched is awesome isn't it. Looks good, nice job!


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## aug0211

Here we are, at day 65 - not the best photos, raw/unedited from my iPhone. I'm not great at photos so if I should be doing something different when taking these, let me know 

   

   

   

   



I have some yellowing in the front that has me a bit concerned. I started a fungus treatment plan 3 weeks ago because I was concerned about some spots popping up in the front.

After a lot of thought, I gave two spoon feedings of nitrogen the last two weeks (0.5 lbs/k) to help grow through the fungus. I was nervous about two things: nitrogen so early on such a young lawn, and feeding N so late in the season.

•3 weeks ago, fungus treatment #1 at bag rate for "curative" use
•2 weeks ago, nitrogen spoon feeding #1 at 0.5 lbs/k
•1 weeks ago, nitrogen spoon feeding #2 at 0.5 lbs/k
•Today, fungus treatment #2 at bag rate for "preventative" use (per instructions)

I believe the yellowing that I have is from nitrogen burn - I suspect that I either did not water in enough, or the lawn just couldn't take the N yet. There's a chance it's fungus, too - I can't tell.

I was maintaining at a lower cut, but decided to let the lawn grow a couple extra days with the yellowing to avoid further stress (assuming it is N burn).

I have some of what I can tell is KBG (nice thin blades) but, the vast majority of my turf is thicker bladed mystery grass for me. Any ideas from the closeup photos? G-man had indicated Orchard Grass (I hand pulled a ton) as well as Annual Rye.

Last note - two "homemade" failures for lawn rollers so far. One was a PVC pipe with sand, but I quickly shut that down as it was a nightmare any time I turned/backed up (need a better fastening system). Next up was a rubber floor mat to add some weight. It doesn't do much of anything beyond the factory setup.


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## aug0211

Hi All,

Including some additional photos in hope of more conclusive information on whether I have rust/some fungal issue OR if this is nitrogen burn.

In my previous post, I laid out some details on application of N (via Urea), in an attempt to grow through fungus (alongside/supplementing a fungal treatment).

Here are some additional photos I snapped today - I honestly and just not sure if it's N burn or fungus spreading.

Any ideas?


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## Sinclair

That's rust.

N burn would fry all the grass in one place. What we see in your photo are dying blades next to perfectly healthy blades.


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> That's rust.
> 
> N burn would fry all the grass in one place. What we see in your photo are dying blades next to perfectly healthy blades.


Dang! Thank you for the help!

Ok - so... next steps?

I have 2 bags of Scott's fungus control (URL below).

In my first application (4 weeks ago), I applied 3 bags at the "curative rate" - which covered my 7.5k perfectly.

Then, last application (last week), I applied at the "prevantivite rate" (per bag instructions), but this was only 1 bag - the math did not add up (spreader settings vs lbs/ft). I stuck with the more conservative measurement (which was spreader settings - so 1 bag which is supposed to cover 5k covered 7.5k).

Should I drop more tomorrow? Thoughts on how much? Or - is a different product better? I don't want to over-do it and create more issues, but I do not see this improving.

I'll spray down the mower tomorrow before mowing... and will plan to contribute dropping my HOC. Should I give a shot of N, as well?

URL to the product I currently have (and have been putting down):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000F6XHIG/ref=asc_df_B000F6XHIG5247535/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B000F6XHIG&linkCode=df0&hvadid=193142362025&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=2285002750196086127&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9014885&hvtargid=pla-308678422731


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## Sinclair

University of Minnesota extension recommends doing essentially nothing. We are too late in the season now.

http://blog-yard-garden-news.extension.umn.edu/2010/10/rust-diseases-of-lawn-grasses-very.html?m=1


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## aug0211

Thanks, Sinclair.

Looks like I selected the wrong product - the Bayer product may have been better, based on the labels (Scotts does not list rust).

The link you posted makes it sound like the worst case with applying fungicide now is wasted money in the event that it's too late for the fungicide to do anything? If that's the case, I'd spent the ~$50 if appropriate to try to help the little bit of new stuff coming in/roots underneath.

If there's actual harm to be done, I will have to get by with just kicking myself through the winter 

Last question - do I still go with a pre-m, or do I plan on reseeding next spring? :-(


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## Sinclair

Based on your photos, it doesn't look that bad, and don't forget that KBG has rhizomes underground that are now going dormant, but will emerge next spring.

If that was my lawn I would do pre-m now and not worry too much over the winter.


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## Sinclair

Save your fungus control product for if you have a problem in the spring.


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> Save your fungus control product for if you have a problem in the spring.


Hmmm.... save it b/c I risk doing more damage if I put something down? Or save it to save the $?

Honestly, I'm anxious enough that I'd feel better buying the Bayer and putting it down, even if it is likely to not help - unless there's risk of it doing damage.

Thanks again for the help, Sinclair!


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## Sinclair

It won't hurt anything other than your wallet.


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> It won't hurt anything other than your wallet.


Ok, cool, I'm willing to spend the ~$50 or so to give it a shot. No concerns with applying Bayer at bag rate, given that I applied Scotts at curative rate 4 weeks ago and then preventative rate 1 week ago?


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## Sinclair

You'll have to look at the active ingredient in each and do some googling to see if there are any adverse effects of over application.

Fungicide AIs typically end in "ole".

I'd spend the $50 on a bottle of scotch, and have a drink every time I worry about the rust.


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## g-man

The best way to confirm rust is to grab a white paper towel and rub a couple of leaves. It should leave a rust color residue.


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## aug0211

g-man said:


> The best way to confirm rust is to grab a white paper towel and rub a couple of leaves. It should leave a rust color residue.


/creeps out into the lawn in the dark.../


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## aug0211

aug0211 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> The best way to confirm rust is to grab a white paper towel and rub a couple of leaves. It should leave a rust color residue.
> 
> 
> 
> /creeps out into the lawn in the dark.../
Click to expand...

Yep, brown residue "scraped" off the leaves and onto the white paper towel. Nothing bright orange/red, but definitely a dull brownish color that rubbed off. It came off on the first blade without any question.

Thanks, g-man and Sinclair for the help.


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## Sinclair

:lol: :twisted: :mrgreen:


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## Sinclair

Awww, you replied too soon!


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> Awww, you replied too soon!


Lol - couldn't wait. I'm sure I'll test again in the AM, I'll find that blade ;-)


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## g-man

It was fairly obvious from the images, but the white paper test never fails to confirm.

One key thing to do to avoid rust spreading is to hose the mower between after mowing the rust areas. So mow all the rust free areas first, then the rust areas and then wash the mower to have it ready for the next mowing. Avoid foot traffic in the rust. This helps but winds are enough to spread it. Likely your neighbors have it too.

I agree with Sinclair, it is too late in the season to do much about it. Next year it will need some nitrogen in the spring to help it grow out of it. I would not apply a fungicide now. Fungicide kills the good and bad bacteria and if I recall correctly rust dies with frost.


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## j4c11

Sinclair said:


> Fungicide AIs typically end in "ole".


I'll take that challenge.

azoxystrobin
Chlorothalonil
captan
carbaryl
mancozeb
thiophanate-methyl
....

Slow evening :lol:


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## aug0211

Lol - well played, j4!

Ok, Sincair and g-man have me sold, I'll hold off on the next app of fungicide. Going to be tough to just do nothing!

I signed up for this though, when I decided to take a crack at the monostand


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## Sinclair

With lawn care, and plants in general, sometimes nothing is the best "something" you can do.

Think of all the Nitrogen fixing fungi you won't be killing!


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## Sinclair

LOL j4c, well done.


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## aug0211

So here's a follow up question. Is the grass in my close up shots actually Bewitched? It seems like the spots through the lawn that exhibit rust are the "wider blade" mystery grass, whereas the finer bladed grass does not seem to show rust. Could it be that my mystery grass (annual rye?) has rust, and the KBG does not? Does it even work that way? A strand of rust that is affecting the ARG (or mystery grass), but will not touch the Bewitched?


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## Pete1313

Tough for me to look from pictures, but the rust in your pics appears to be on bluegrass blades.


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## SNOWBOB11

I am in the same situation as you with regards to late season rust on my bewitched stand. With top growth basically stoped now for me I'm going to just leave things be for this season and hopefully with below freezing overnight temps forecast for next week it will eradicate the fungus. Rust seems to be very common on first year bluegrass. I think by your pics the blades with rust is on KBG and not annual rye.


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## aug0211

Thanks guys. Finished mowing and it is basically everywhere  I guess I don't have to clean between sections, lol.


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## Sinclair

aug0211 said:


> Thanks guys. Finished mowing and it is basically everywhere  I guess I don't have to clean between sections, lol.


Did you get that bottle of scotch?


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks guys. Finished mowing and it is basically everywhere  I guess I don't have to clean between sections, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you get that bottle of scotch?
Click to expand...

Rofl, I didn't... yet. Bummed about the rust, but still overall happy with how things are looking. I spent about 45 minutes fiddling with my mower before cutting and improved my striping a tad. Still nowhere near where I want it, but it's getting better.

I snapped a few photos of the front during halftime of the OSU blowout (  ) and will grab some of the back in a moment (dark now but the security lights help some).


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## aug0211

Day 70 photos (I believe we're at 70, didn't check the date to confirm 100%). Unedited/untouched on my iPhone as usual - apologies for the lack of photo skills.


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## social port

Looks really good to me, despite the rust.

Your coverage looks very even. I bet you won't need that scotch next year.


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## SNOWBOB11

Looks good! The front yard rust looks similar for the most part to my lawn. Once that goes away next year, your grass is going to look really good.


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## aug0211

Thanks, guys. I think the back may be growing through the rust - it looked worse before the cut.

I really want to get better at mowing. I want better stripes and straighter lines. And a cleaner cut. I'd love to mow again tomorrow dropping the HOC down a notch, but it looks like we'll get rain all day 

Already getting excited about the spring. Hopeful for an aggressive green up and fert plan to get through the rust - and a leveling project as well (first pass of many, I'm sure).

Any input or ideas on things I can work on for now? I had been spoon feeding on the super aggressive (0.5 lb N/k each week) but stopped, thinking we are coming into the pause in central OH. Does that sound right? Anything else to do for now?


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## aug0211

Snowbob, what's your climate like? Colder than where I am, I assume? Glad to see you over here, I had followed your thread on the other site and it's cool to see someone who is in a similar situation/timing as I am!


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## JohnP

I used this to find my first frost. It was fairly spot on.


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## aug0211

Thanks, John! I had come across that one in a separate thread (the aggressive N thread, I believe).

The only catch I have is, this weather this year is so crazy. I'm concerned that I'm talking myself into it, but it seems like we keep hitting cold snaps and then we turn around and get back into highs of 60s and lows of mid 40s.

Am I talking myself in to another N treatment, when I should really be holding off for the final drop after the pause?


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## aug0211

Did a couple spot checks on ground to top of turf and got 2-2.5", so I'll call it 2.25" HOC for now (and ideally, I'd like to mow tomorrow to drop it down one more notch - which I think would have me in the 1.75-2.25" range).

Seems like maintaining with a TruCut at the max HOC would be feasible...

Just not sure if I'm up to maintaining the TruCut machine, itself.


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## ken-n-nancy

JohnP said:


> I used this to find my first frost. It was fairly spot on.


Just FYI, that site provides the _average first frost_. The _average first frost_ is a date that is typically at least 4 weeks before the date that top growth will stop on a northern cool season lawn.

The _average first frost_ is better correlated with when top growth will stop on a northern cool season lawn than the actual first frost. The date of actual first frost can have a lot of variation from year to year, as is shown in the tables at the davesgarden site linked above.

Just as an example of this, the "average first frost" reference date for me on the davesgarden.com site is Sep 26. (50% likelihood of Fall 32° ). The 90% likelihood date is Oct 13. Today is Nov 4, and we still haven't had our actual first frost, over 5 weeks late! Does this mean that our grass will keep having top growth five weeks later than normal -- I don't think so!

For more on the relevance of frost dates to the fall nitrogen blitz, I made a posting in that thread with more info.


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## aug0211

Hi K&N,

I have read that one and it is super helpful - ty for the great info.

IIRC, it's the topic that discusses the common newbie (me!) confusion between "actual" first frost and "average" first frost.

That's my exact concern - that my desire to "keep doing something" is pushing me toward acting over zealously based on current temps and weather patterns opposed to the bigger picture averages.


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## g-man

I'm in Indy, so we should have close enough weather. I stop dropping nitrogen on 25oct. I typically see the stop of growth the week after Thanksgiving.


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## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> That's my exact concern - that my desire to "keep doing something" is pushing me toward acting over zealously based on current temps and weather patterns opposed to the bigger picture averages.


It's a difficult temptation -- 4 weeks before top growth stops, the grass is still nice and green, still growing vigorously, and we lawn enthusiasts want to _do something_!

Unfortunately, being able to correctly anticipate top growth stoppage 4 weeks in advance would require an accurate crystal ball, as it depends not only upon the current temps and weather patterns, but also could depend a lot upon what the weather is like 3 and 4 weeks from now. That's just about impossible to predict. As an example, do you think anybody forecasted during the month of July that Houston would get nearly 20 inches of rain during the last week of August?

The "safe" thing to do is to make the last "nitrogen blitz" application of fast-release fertilizer around the date of the average first frost and then wait until after top growth completely stops to make one final fertilization at least a week or more before the ground freezes.


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## aug0211

Thanks, g-man.

My last drop was on 10/22. As you said, our climates are pretty similar as I'm pretty close to you. You know what you're doing more than I do... time to call it done until the final drop.

Appreciate the helpful info from all, as usual.


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## aug0211

ken-n-nancy said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's my exact concern - that my desire to "keep doing something" is pushing me toward acting over zealously based on current temps and weather patterns opposed to the bigger picture averages.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a difficult temptation -- 4 weeks before top growth stops, the grass is still nice and green, still growing vigorously, and we lawn enthusiasts want to _do something_!
> 
> Unfortunately, being able to correctly anticipate top growth stoppage 4 weeks in advance would require an accurate crystal ball, as it depends not only upon the current temps and weather patterns, but also could depend a lot upon what the weather is like 3 and 4 weeks from now. That's just about impossible to predict. As an example, do you think anybody forecasted during the month of July that Houston would get nearly 20 inches of rain during the last week of August?
> 
> The "safe" thing to do is to make the last "nitrogen blitz" application of fast-release fertilizer around the date of the average first frost and then wait until after top growth completely stops to make one final fertilization at least a week or more before the ground freezes.
Click to expand...

This is me, precisely! Thanks for talking me off the ledge. Maybe I'll shift my energy toward researching mowers more  Not to mention, we have baby #2 due in two months, so plenty to do there!

Quick note - the patience in replies in this thread (even when the info has already been posted, you are all being patient and talking me back through it without being demeaning or acting annoyed) is great.

Love this forum. Thanks for making it a great place! It's the patient veterans who make the biggest difference.


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## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> Quick note - the patience in replies in this thread (even when the info has already been posted, you are all being patient and talking me back through it without being demeaning or acting annoyed) is great.


Thanks.

It's all an act, by the way -- we're really all terribly annoyed, and are just acting patient...


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## aug0211

ken-n-nancy said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quick note - the patience in replies in this thread (even when the info has already been posted, you are all being patient and talking me back through it without being demeaning or acting annoyed) is great.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> It's all an act, by the way -- we're really all terribly annoyed, and are just acting patient...
Click to expand...

Well keep it up! Don't go wizard on us, we're trying our best


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## JohnP

ken-n-nancy said:


> JohnP said:
> 
> 
> 
> I used this to find my first frost. It was fairly spot on.
> 
> 
> 
> Just FYI, that site provides the _average first frost_. The _average first frost_ is a date that is typically at least 4 weeks before the date that top growth will stop on a northern cool season lawn.
> 
> For more on the relevance of frost dates to the fall nitrogen blitz, I made a posting in that thread with more info.
Click to expand...

Sorry I did mean to say average first frost, which is where I cut off the weekly Urea and thought that's where convo was headed. Shows I can't Netflix and TLF at same time.


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## SNOWBOB11

aug0211 said:


> Snowbob, what's your climate like? Colder than where I am, I assume? Glad to see you over here, I had followed your thread on the other site and it's cool to see someone who is in a similar situation/timing as I am!


I believe in general we do get colder weather than your area but we haven't got any snow or sustained below freezing temps as of yet this season and probably won't until a bit later this month. For me top growth has basically stoped so I'm forced to look at the rust until the snow starts flying.

Thanks for following along with my thread. Glad to see you over here as well!


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## Sinclair

I'm a little bit further north than Snowbob.

I've had two frosts, but nothing hard, and very little time below freezing so far.

Top growth is very very slow, maybe stopped now. My last Urea app was 3.5 weeks ago.

Lots of rust around in public parks and school yards. I dodged it.


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## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> I'm a little bit further north than Snowbob.
> 
> I've had two frosts, but nothing hard, and very little time below freezing so far.
> 
> Top growth is very very slow, maybe stopped now. My last Urea app was 3.5 weeks ago.
> 
> Lots of rust around in public parks and school yards. I dodged it.


Glad to hear you've dodged it! Did you get lucky, or have a good preventative regimen? I'm thinking I'll maintain a preventative regimen going forward (beginning next spring).


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## aug0211

Ugh - tons of rain this weekend and under severe thunderstorm warnings all night.

Just looked out back to check and saw this at the edge of the property :-(

Photos "retouched" on my iPhone for brightness.


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## aug0211

Just keeps coming


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## SNOWBOB11

Got your very own stream running back there. The grass should be fine when it dries up. Nice interlock patio by the way.


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## Sinclair

aug0211 said:


> Glad to hear you've dodged it! Did you get lucky, or have a good preventative regimen? I'm thinking I'll maintain a preventative regimen going forward (beginning next spring).


Well, I spoke too soon. I have a little bit of rust at the curb, and along the side of my driveway / walkway.

I blame halloween kids walking through infected lawns! :lol:

Not gonna sweat it.


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## aug0211

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Got your very own stream running back there. The grass should be fine when it dries up. Nice interlock patio by the way.


Thanks, SB. We had the patio put in this past year (one of the first things we did after buying the home).

Funny thing about the flooding in the back is, I installed 85' of french drain pipe this summer before the reno in hopes of helping with the draining (I noticed the issues in early spring this year). I dug the trench by hand (a friend helped), no machinery involved - lots of manual labor and we were hurting for days... but I was really optimistic about improving the drainage.

I guess the water is draining faster than it did in the past - but I'm still bummed about the flooding to begin with.


----------



## aug0211

Sinclair said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Glad to hear you've dodged it! Did you get lucky, or have a good preventative regimen? I'm thinking I'll maintain a preventative regimen going forward (beginning next spring).
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I spoke too soon. I have a little bit of rust at the curb, and along the side of my driveway / walkway.
> 
> I blame halloween kids walking through infected lawns! :lol:
> 
> Not gonna sweat it.
Click to expand...

LOL - you jinxed yourself. Hopefully it's late enough that it won't spread and your cold weather will take care of it.


----------



## aug0211

Some more photos, after mowing yesterday. Stepped the HOC down a notch on the mower to the second lowest (looks like roughly 1-3/8").

Very happy with this HOC and it makes me more and more optimistic about reel mowing - I had previously thought that 2-1/4" was the lowest I could go, but this is far below that and I'm very happy with it.

Included some different angles this time to capture different perspectives. Hoping to be able to start seeing progress if I look back at photos over time (wish I had started a photo log much earlier).

Side note - a personal pet peeve of mine is people parking in front of my house. Sure enough, the car in the photo parked there while I was mowing - makes edging that curb line really interesting (at least I had already mowed that section). Parking in front of someone's house is one thing (unavoidable at times), but it seems rude to do it when you see the person is working in the yard (mowing/edging/whatever).
/rant


----------



## J_nick

aug0211 said:


> Side note - a personal pet peeve of mine is people parking in front of my house. Sure enough, the car in the photo parked there while I was mowing - makes edging that curb line really interesting (at least I had already mowed that section). Parking in front of someone's house is one thing (unavoidable at times), but it seems rude to do it when you see the person is working in the yard (mowing/edging/whatever).
> /rant


That's when you open up the side discharge and cover it with clippings :twisted:


----------



## aug0211

J_nick said:


> That's when you open up the side discharge and cover it with clippings :twisted:


😂


----------



## wardconnor

Nice low mowed lawn there. Reel mower incoming?


----------



## aug0211

wardconnor said:


> Nice low mowed lawn there. Reel mower incoming?


Thanks! A work in progress - long way to go.

Maybe reel in 2018 

About done for the season here in Ohio. Seems to be very difficult to find good deals on reels where I am (looks like everyone uses rotary). Golf courses are using greens mowers I'm guessing, so I don't see many used TruCuts (my current pick) available - and don't want to pay $2+k


----------



## wardconnor

aug0211 said:


> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice low mowed lawn there. Reel mower incoming?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! A work in progress - long way to go.
> 
> Maybe reel in 2018
> 
> About done for the season here in Ohio. Seems to be very difficult to find good deals on reels where I am (looks like everyone uses rotary). Golf courses are using greens mowers I'm guessing, so I don't see many used TruCuts (my current pick) available - and don't want to pay $2+k
Click to expand...

Yes.. Same situation here for me. Not too many reel mowers to be had or for sale. Just keep looking and be patient.

My recommendation is to keep waiting and talking to local courses or broaden your search a little bit and wait for a green mower with a drum roller in the rear of the mower. Skip the tru cut or mclane.

Just keep waiting for one to pop up. It will in time. It did for me and reels are not popular where I'm at like you.


----------



## aug0211

wardconnor said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> wardconnor said:
> 
> 
> 
> Nice low mowed lawn there. Reel mower incoming?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! A work in progress - long way to go.
> 
> Maybe reel in 2018
> 
> About done for the season here in Ohio. Seems to be very difficult to find good deals on reels where I am (looks like everyone uses rotary). Golf courses are using greens mowers I'm guessing, so I don't see many used TruCuts (my current pick) available - and don't want to pay $2+k
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yes.. Same situation here for me. Not too many reel mowers to be had or for sale. Just keep looking and be patient.
> 
> My recommendation is to keep waiting and talking to local courses or broaden your search a little bit and wait for a green mower with a drum roller in the rear of the mower. Skip the tru cut or mclane.
> 
> Just keep waiting for one to pop up. It will in time. It did for me and reels are not popular where I'm at like you.
Click to expand...

Think I can handle a greensmower? Nervous about the HOC, still.

Any tips on greensmowers I should research that might have a wide-ish deck (25-30"), manageable for a rookie, and also have the rear drum roller? Would love the rear drum for striping 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼

Mainly scared of:
•Extreme HOC
•Insane cost
•Scary maintenance


----------



## aug0211

Rough Saturday. I've been trying to mow then get photos up on the weekend so I can watch over time, but this weekend will be a no-go.

Lots of rain and flooding in my area, including my backyard  Check out the stream in the photo below.

Side note - irrigation guy was out to winterize yesterday and lectured me on mowing too low.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

You should show him pics of Pete and ward conners lawns and see what he thinks about how low they mow. :nod:


----------



## aug0211

SNOWBOB11 said:


> You should show him pics of Pete and ward conners lawns and see what he thinks about how low they mow. :nod:


Rofl!

My wife heard me talking to him and she rolled her eyes for me when he left and I walked back in - she knew how annoyed I was 

Odds that he is right and I won't succeed? Probably greater than 50%, to be fair. I'm a newbie at this still, so he probably has a point. He has probably been around long enough to see guys like me get over zealous and fall flat on their backs a few months later.

My hope is that I can tap the knowledge around here to stay afloat while I pick up a solid understanding along the the way.


----------



## g-man

It been raining for the last 24hr in Indy. The wind is crazy strong. I had to go out and pick up the patio furniture from the lawn. It dig some holes into the ground.

I'm guessing you will have a similar weather.

Does the irrigation guy also lectures the local golf course and baseball park?


----------



## aug0211

Lol - probably not. But keep in mind, I'm not at the level of those guys. And he knows that. So from his point of view, I'm the guy who moved into the neighborhood ~1.5 years ago and spent some cash to put in irrigation and nuked my lawn.

And he has a fair reason to question me. I'm no golf course expert and not a turf professional. I hope to succeed - and the conversation was frustrating for me... but it did make me ask myself - what am I going to do different from the typical homeowner who scalps their lawn and expects it to live, but fails? Am I really doing something different that will bring me success?


----------



## g-man

Nothing wrong with taking it easy. A 2.5in is a great hoc until you get more experience and confidence. Keep reading and follow the normal practices (not the extremes) that we share in the forum and you will be alright.


----------



## wardconnor

g-man said:


> Nothing wrong with taking it easy. A 2.5in is a great hoc until you get more experience and confidence. Keep reading and follow the normal practices (not the extremes) that we share in the forum and you will be alright.


+1


----------



## aug0211

Cut at the same level again this weekend (second lowest setting on my mower), with HOC coming in at about 1.5" in the couple places I measured.

Man, the low cut looks great - I appreciate it so much more. That said, I am a bit nervous about getting through the Ohio winter for this first year lawn.

I was not able to mow last week due to weather (crazy rain and more flooding), so it was 2 weeks since cutting. Grass had grown to just shy of 2", so very moderate growth (and mowing to 1.5" kept me just shy of the 1/3 rule).

We've had multiple freezes at this point but warmer temps this week (not much rain) - so I suspect I'll have a tiny bit more growth before next weekend, maybe none. I haven't dropped my winterizing urea yet, but I suspect it will be in the next 2-3 weeks based on how much things are slowing down.

I wasn't able to snap photos of the front, so I'll have to do with just the back.


----------



## Pete1313

aug0211 said:


> Cut at the same level again this weekend (second lowest setting on my mower), with HOC coming in at about 1.5" in the couple places I measured.
> 
> Man, the low cut looks great - I appreciate it so much more. That said, I am a bit nervous about getting through the Ohio winter for this first year lawn.


Looking good! :thumbsup: 
There will be no issues cutting bewitched shorter going into winter.


----------



## aug0211

I figure it's time for an update, and we're getting close to getting back in to lawn mode out here in Ohio.

1. I did not get to do the winterization - kept delaying to try to do it at the perfect time, and I wound up missing it. My daughter was also born early and prepping for her took some of my focus away from lawn work 

2. My HOC for the winter was definitely lower than anyone around me - and I got comments from my irrigation company that my lawn was going to die and couldn't make it through it's first winter that short. Glad the group here encouraged me - I think it did great!

3. The back drainage area is so frustrating. It's always worst this time of year, when it's saturated from snow melt and then we get loads of rain. I dug an 84' trench by hand and installed a French Drain System last summer... maybe it's helping some, but it's still definitely an issue  I'm worried about fungus in that section with how wet it's staying.

4. The Bewitched is significantly more green than neighbor lawns (TTTF blends mostly) - photos attached!

5. Need to pick out a good pre-m (granular) so I have it on hand... with the warm temps we're getting, I feel like it'll be needed soon!

6. Since I had rust going in to the winter, do I need to start a fungus treatment plan now? Preventative or treatment levels?

7. You'll notice some "patchiness" of color in my lawn, where areas are more brown than green. What gives?


----------



## aug0211

I have a battle ahead of me, I'm not sure what these are, but they're popping up all over. Bunches of grass like this - is it crab grass? Orchard grass? Started growing in the last week, I'd say, and growing much faster than the KBG around iT.

I'll post in the weed ID thread if we don't nail it here 👍🏼


----------



## g-man

aug0211 said:


> 5. Need to pick out a good pre-m (granular) so I have it on hand... with the warm temps we're getting, I feel like it'll be needed soon!
> 
> 6. Since I had rust going in to the winter, do I need to start a fungus treatment plan now? Preventative or treatment levels?
> 
> 7. You'll notice some "patchiness" of color in my lawn, where areas are more brown than green. What gives?


5. Im trying to remember where in Ohio you are. I think it was near Columbus (could you update your profile?). PreM date might be as soon as next weekend. Look at the GDD tracker for your zip code. http://www.gddtracker.net/?zip=46201&offset=0&model=7

6. No need to do anything for rust.

7. It looks normal to me. Give it a week.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Definitely putting the green shame on your neighbours lawns.

I'm using dimension granular pre-e with 25% dithiopyr this spring. Might want to look into that one.

Also I think it's probably too early to start treating for fungus. The rust is probably gone after the winter. I'd say probably early May or so start treating with preventative measures.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

g-man said:


> 5. Im trying to remember where in Ohio you are. I think it was near Columbus (could you update your profile?). PreM date might be as soon as next weekend. Look at the GDD tracker for your zip code. http://www.gddtracker.net/?zip=46201&offset=0&model=7
> 
> 6. No need to do anything for rust.
> 
> 7. It looks normal to me. Give it a week.


Bringing back g-mans post. I pushed it to the previous page with my post.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks guys!

I'm in Delaware, north of Columbus (zip is 43015). Profile updated!

Based on the link g-man shared, it looks like im still in the "under" portion so probably some time to go?

Snowbob, I'll check out that pre-m you're mentioning. There's an ATS right next to me so I should have some decent options. I have a great backpack sprayer but I'm not great at using it, so I prefer granules whenever possible &#128077;&#127996;

Any thoughts on those patches that are shooting up and growing so fast? I'll pull one for better photos and root pictures to post in weed ID if it's not something super obvious. I think it's either annual rye or orchard grass (I believe it's the same stuff we identified last fall), I'm just surprised to see it popping up again so much after I spent SO. MUCH. TIME. pulling all of it by hand (DEEP and to the roots) last fall


----------



## LIgrass

aug0211 said:


> I have a battle ahead of me, I'm not sure what these are, but they're popping up all over. Bunches of grass like this - is it crab grass? Orchard grass? Started growing in the last week, I'd say, and growing much faster than the KBG around iT.
> 
> I'll post in the weed ID thread if we don't nail it here 👍🏼


I'd look into quackgrass (look for rhizomes). It usually pops up in early spring and looks similar to crabgrass (which it is definitely not, CG is a summer weed).


----------



## aug0211

Ugh - I suspect that's it. Thanks, LIgrass - not good news, but it's better to know! I think I'll just glypho all those patches and hope the KBG can spread to fill them in...

This explains why all my hand pulling in the fall wasn't successful


----------



## g-man

aug0211 said:


> Based on the link g-man shared, it looks like im still in the "under" portion so probably some time to go?
> 
> I'll pull one for better photos and root pictures to post in weed ID if it's not something super obvious.
> 
> I'm just surprised to see it popping up again so much after I spent SO. MUCH. TIME. pulling all of it by hand (DEEP and to the roots) last fall


Yes, you are currently at Under, but you should be on Target at 01Mar. Therefore you have 4 days (+ week) to find your PreM and apply it.

One of the leafs looks like quackgrass, but it needs better pictures. Use this website to help identify the grass and take pictures of the ID features. http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/cool-season-turfgrasses-id

If is it quackgrass, do not pull it. It spreads more by pulling. The only way to deal with quackgrass is with careful application of round up.


----------



## g-man

More info on quackgrass


----------



## zeus201

Glypho or Certainty herbicide which is really spendy. I battled it last year and ended up just using glypho. Most of the patches filled in nicely by the end of the season.


----------



## g-man

Please do not use Certainty in a cool season grass. It suppresses quackgrass and perennial ryegrass and bluegrass.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks all, this is very help! Looks like I already have my first assignments of the year:

1. Select and purchase my pre-M
2. Confirm diagnosis of Quack
3. Get my pre-M down
4. Treat the Quack (assuming it is confirmed) - sounds like I'll be mixing up some Glypho
5. Be patient for the KBG to fill in the spots from the killed off quack


----------



## jimmy

Good luck aug! One of the reasons for my reno was Quackgrass. It is pretty easy to ID once you know how.


----------



## aug0211

jimmy said:


> Good luck aug! One of the reasons for my reno was Quackgrass. It is pretty easy to ID once you know how.


Don't tell me that! This is a brand new reno!!! I can't go through another reno to get rid of it!!!!!! :shock:


----------



## jimmy

You'll be fine. I had way more reason than just quack. I had mixes of old varieties of grass, some quack, some Tall Fescue (not TTTF)....my lawn on the whole looked good, I just wanted to make it better and consistent.


----------



## g-man

No need for a new Reno. Just paint the quack leafs with roundup and NIS. I think ligrass used two q-tips taped to a broom in the past. It is not hard and the kbg does cover it.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> No need for a new Reno. Just paint the quack leafs with roundup and NIS. I think ligrass used two q-tips taped to a broom in the past. It is not hard and the kbg does cover it.


What is NIS? Same as the blue spray/indicator?


----------



## LawnNerd

@aug0211 NIS is Non-Ionic Surfactant. It's an additive to help reduce the surface tension of the droplets coming out of the sprayer. It keeps the droplets from forming big droplets and lets them spread out over the surface of the leaf.

Here is a great video that shows it's use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgmYtCUl7Z4https://youtu.be/KgmYtCUl7Z4?t=3m37s


----------



## aug0211

LawnNerd said:


> @aug0211 NIS is Non-Ionic Surfactant. It's an additive to help reduce the surface tension of the droplets coming out of the sprayer. It keeps the droplets from forming big droplets and lets them spread out over the surface of the leaf.
> 
> Here is a great video that shows it's use. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kgm...re. Learn something new every day! :thumbup:


----------



## ABC123

aug0211 said:


> jimmy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck aug! One of the reasons for my reno was Quackgrass. It is pretty easy to ID once you know how.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't tell me that! This is a brand new reno!!! I can't go through another reno to get rid of it!!!!!! :shock:
Click to expand...

ive went through lots of reading on quack. Aggressive Light N apps does help bluegrass compete with quack. Depending on where your at I do have some certainty I could part with


----------



## aug0211

Hey Jimmy, thanks! I'm in Central Ohio, near Polaris if you're familiar with the area.

Is the thought that certainty will take out the quack and not the KBG?


----------



## ABC123

aug0211 said:


> Hey Jimmy, thanks! I'm in Central Ohio, near Polaris if you're familiar with the area.
> 
> Is the thought that certainty will take out the quack and not the KBG?


It should, but theres not a lot of room for error. So that's why it's not labeled anymore for it


----------



## aug0211

Hmmm, interesting. Room for error in terms of what? application rate? Timing?

EDIT: Ok, thinking more, I assume the room for error is with killing the KBG itself? It seems to me that I can't do worse with it than I would with Glypho... right?


----------



## ABC123

Application rate is the killer here. It's like only .25 ai between killing quack or bluegrass I'd just paint them individually with gly.


----------



## aug0211

ABC123 said:


> Application rate is the killer here. It's like only .25 ai between killing quack or bluegrass I'd just paint them individually with gly.


The more I read, the more I find this - I'll plan on that. Thank you!


----------



## aug0211

Ok, getting ready to pull the trigger on my pre-m.

I'm having trouble deciding between Dimension and Prodiamine. Last year, I had taken notes to go with Prodiamine, though I did not include details as to WHY I wanted to go that route - and I honestly am too much of a novice to defend any position strongly. I remember one potential benefit to Dimension being possible post-emergent control for CG, but am really open to either option. I highly prefer granules over liquid.

Below are the products I'm considering (hoping to take advantage of the DoMyOwn.com's free shipping). Any feedback on what would be the best option for me?

1. Hi-Yield Weed and Grass Stopper with Dimension Herbicide
2. Prodiamine 65 WDG (Generic Barricade)
3. Pro-Mate Barricade 0.22% Plus Fertilizer 0 - 0 - 7

I'm hoping to pull the trigger in the next couple hours so I can receive it sooner rather than later, as my window is approaching 

Thanks in advance for input!


----------



## LawnNerd

At this point, since you have no crabgrass up, the post-em control of dimension is mute. If your sprayer game is up to snuff (if not, maybe this is the kick you need?), then i highly recommend the Option 2 from a cost per app basis. I mean it's ridiculously cheap that route, and you'll have it on hand for years to come. No more ordering and waiting for it to arrive. This is the route i go.

With all the warm weather the east coast had the last 2 weeks, when i saw my soil temps hit 50 degrees it was 75 degrees outside. I just walked out with my coffee and said "Yep, today is the day..." and did it. I didn't have to wait for the items to be shipped.

Regarding the difference between 1 and 3 - You'll need 2 bags (if at max rate 10.44lbs/1k) with #3, but will give you a longer control of 7 months. Dimension will only get you 3-4 months. I'm not familiar enough with Dimensions to know if there is anything dimension covers that prodiamine doesn't.


----------



## aug0211

LawnNerd said:


> At this point, since you have no crabgrass up, the post-em control of dimension is mute. If your sprayer game is up to snuff (if not, maybe this is the kick you need?), then i highly recommend the Option 2 from a cost per app basis. I mean it's ridiculously cheap that route, and you'll have it on hand for years to come. No more ordering and waiting for it to arrive. This is the route i go.
> 
> With all the warm weather the east coast had the last 2 weeks, when i saw my soil temps hit 50 degrees it was 75 degrees outside. I just walked out with my coffee and said "Yep, today is the day..." and did it. I didn't have to wait for the items to be shipped.
> 
> Regarding the difference between 1 and 3 - You'll need 2 bags (if at max rate 10.44lbs/1k) with #3, but will give you a longer control of 7 months. Dimension will only get you 3-4 months. I'm not familiar enough with Dimensions to know if there is anything dimension covers that prodiamine doesn't.


Thanks for the info! That's part of what is killing me - I need to get better at spraying, but I don't want to risk it with an actual product and end up making a big mistake. I need to just find a time when I've got bandwidth to practice with nothing but dye and work out my walking speed to get the right app rates. I'm just not comfortable enough yet to take on option 2.

Anyone else have opinions on prodiamine vs dimension? I'm nervous about going with prodiamine and then finding out that I need to re-seed a section in the reno this fall for whatever reason - and not being able to (Prodiamine would block any seed down until October which is too late for me).

About to pull the trigger on 35 lbs of the Hi-Yield Dimension unless someone has strong opinions or recommendations against it 

EDITED TO ADD:
My thought with the Dimension is that I can do an application now to carry me through Mar-Apr-May, then see how the lawn is looking:
-I decide I am going to want to seed in fall, I can apply a lighter round for late May/late Jun/late Jul with seed down towards the end of August
-If I decide I don't want to seed in fall, I can give a bit of space between the two apps to cover me further through the fall


----------



## bernstem

Prodiamine can be dosed for anywhere from 3-8 months of coverage in cool season turf, so it should be safe for a fall seeding. I have sprayed in the spring and seeded a renovation in the fall without issues, but others have had it affect renovations and result in poor germination. Make sure you dose appropriately for your fall seeding date and spray evenly.

As for quack grass. If that is what you have, I recommend a low earth orbit kinetic strike. I used to recommend tactial nuclear weapons, but the radiation is harder to manage. No matter what, you want to hit it hard and accept collateral damage to the lawn. Once established, the rhizomes make it very difficult to eradicate. Anything in my lawn that looks like Quack (happens occasionally) gets dug up with 5-12 inches of surrounding turf down to 4-6 inches and replaced with a plug of turf from a donor area in the back lawn. The offending Quack gets thrown in with the trash. It doesn't go into the compost. If you have small areas, you can pull (make sure to get the rhizomes) or spot treat/paint with glyphosate.

If you do decide to try Certainty, be very careful with the dosing and spraying. Expect the bluegrass to look sick for 2-4 weeks after application. I have used it with reasonable results, but there is a reason it is no longer labeled for KBG.


----------



## aug0211

Oh geez. I'm going the glypho route. So bummed about this.

One question I have is, is it too early to glypho it? Or is it safe to assume it's growing enough right now? It's significsntly longer than the actual lawn.


----------



## zeus201

I do not see any harm burning it now. I did it right when things started greening up last year.

If you want to try Prodiamine, I have some I could send.


----------



## jimmy

Last year I bought a jug of Prodiamine WSG (the same stuff you linked to, but for ~$5 less on Amazon). That was my first time using the backpack sprayer and it turned out fine. The jug should last many years. I applied before I decided on my renovation, and was happy (lucky) that my rate was low enough to be able to seed about 6 months later in the fall.

I'm going to do another round of prodiamine this year in the areas that I don't need to reseed (for obvious reasons) and do a combination of plugs with my proplugger and seeding in the areas I had germination issues with in the fall. (Most were in the way back/sides of my yard...and were from a combination of poor watering and too much shade.)


----------



## aug0211

I went with option 1 (the dimension).

Cost is a tad higher (still not much for my ~8k), and I'll need to do more apps through the year - but I actually see that is a positive in my setup, as it gives me some flexibility/room for error in terms of making a "last minute" decision around overseeing later in the year.

Ok, not last minute, but maybe an extra month of buffer to make that call.

It's alllllllmost time based on the GDD tracker - probably not today, but this week hopefully. Snow coming Wednesday but temps are starting to stabilize in the upper 40s.

In an ideal world, I'll get out there this afternoon to start painting on the glypho... we'll see if that happens, though.


----------



## GrassDaddy

There are weed wicks on amazon you can use that make painting easier. They even have caps over the brush so I have mine filled with glyphosate in the garage and when I get a chance I can go paint a few spots and put it back without mixing/cleanup.


----------



## aug0211

GrassDaddy said:


> There are weed wicks on amazon you can use that make painting easier. They even have caps over the brush so I have mine filled with glyphosate in the garage and when I get a chance I can go paint a few spots and put it back without mixing/cleanup.


Of course, I spent 90 minutes painting today 😂 Back is killing me! Round 1, done, though!

Definitely going to have some dead spots - front will be very ugly for a while!


----------



## GrassDaddy

Just remember to stop before the spring flush is over lol I got carried away and ended up with dead spots all summer. But during the flush the kbg will fill in.


----------



## aug0211

GrassDaddy said:


> Just remember to stop before the spring flush is over lol I got carried away and ended up with dead spots all summer. But during the flush the kbg will fill in.


Thank you! Thoughts on apps of N right now to help? Good idea? Bad idea?


----------



## jimmy

aug0211 said:


> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember to stop before the spring flush is over lol I got carried away and ended up with dead spots all summer. But during the flush the kbg will fill in.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Thoughts on apps of N right now to help? Good idea? Bad idea?
Click to expand...

Generally bad idea. Early spring is for root growth...if you push the N, it will encourage top growth and your roots will suffer...and if you get stress in the heat of summer your lawn won't be as well equipped to handle it.









Where I am in 5b, I won't put any fert down until late May.


----------



## aug0211

jimmy said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GrassDaddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember to stop before the spring flush is over lol I got carried away and ended up with dead spots all summer. But during the flush the kbg will fill in.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you! Thoughts on apps of N right now to help? Good idea? Bad idea?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Generally bad idea. Early spring is for root growth...if you push the N, it will encourage top growth and your roots will suffer...and if you get stress in the heat of summer your lawn won't be as well equipped to handle it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where I am in 5b, I won't put any fert down until late May.
Click to expand...

Thanks Jimmy! Very helpful graphic, as well.


----------



## GrassDaddy

If you use a thermometer then 60 degrees is when root growth is optimal for KBG, so that would be when not to fertilize yet (or if you do, just a slow release *light* app not hammer it down time)


----------



## Ridgerunner

Everything is a trade-off.
The studies I've seen regarding Spring N applications and their effect were based on Spring vs Fall application. The common conclusion was that Spring applications resulted in more top growth than Fall applications. I don't recall any determination that a Spring application clearly resulted in any significant reduction in root growth. More importantly, I've never seen a study comparing turf that has received only a Fall N app vs one that received both a Fall app and a Spring app.
Of significance are some other studies:
1. Turf that received Spring N applications had a higher incidence of disease (about 10-30% more often) than turf that didn't receive a Spring N app. (note that that doesn't mean always, just a higher chance)
2. For cool season grasses, root growth occurs when soil temperatures are between 55 and 65F and there is more root growth in Spring than Fall.
3. Rhizomes (a characteristic of KBG) are roots that turn up.
4. A few studies have shown that phosphorous promotes root growth.
I have always winterized. When my lawn comes out of winter looking decent, I do not apply any Spring fertilizer. I don't see the reason to gamble. However, when my lawn comes out of winter looking patchy (small bare spots) and thin due to a hard previous year's summer/fall or a tough winter, I have spoon fed a starter fertilizer (N&P) to promote spreading of my KBG and to good effect. But, that's just my experience.


----------



## social port

Ridgerunner said:


> Turf that received Spring N applications had a higher incidence of disease (about 10-30% more often)


I wonder if that varies by turf type (e.g., bluegrass vs ryegrass).

Any ideas on how spring N applications might increase risk of disease? For example, does the nitrogen lead to thickening the stand of grass, thereby more readily trapping moisture 'stuck' to the blades?


----------



## aug0211

Thanks, RR.

My lawn is young - a fresh reno from last year; so I still have some patch areas where I'd like to see it fill out - both through rhizomes, as well as just thickening from young patches that barely made it through the winter growing to be a tad more sturdy.

I also have some weed pressure that I'd like to force out the glypho has been applied (round 1) to the quack grass, but I also have some clover of some sort that I noticed while applying the glypho. My thought with the N was that I might be able to give a quick shot of growth to the KBG to help encourage growth to push out some of the weeds.

That said, the last thing I want to do is put top growth pressure on the lawn, and I do NOT want to mess with fungals given my exposure to rust at the end of last year.

I'll hold off on dropping anything (other than pre-M and a second round of painting on glypho) unless the group has strong recommendations otherwise.

Thanks again to all for the guidance! Patience it is!

Next up - continued painting of glypho as needed, and research on this other weed I found (probably need a good general broadleaf herbicide, in all reality).


----------



## Ridgerunner

@social port I know the studies dealt with cool season grasses, but I don't recall the particular turf types or cultivars used in the plots.
The most common explanation is that the increased growth spurt due to N application results in a greater amount of new blade growth than what would occur during "normal" growth rate. It takes time for new blades to "harden off" so these tender N rich blades present more opportunity for attack. Combined with the climate conditions of early Spring = increased risk of infection. There is a similar theory regarding late fall N and snow mold.


----------



## Ridgerunner

@aug0211 
Allow me to clarify. I'm not a proponent of Spring N applications EXCEPT when Spring recovery is needed (as I mentioned above) OR in the first Spring after the year of a renovation. A new reno needs all the first full year help it can get. It just doesn't seem to have the root mass or carbohydrate storage capacity of a mature stand. IMO the gamble (possibility of disease) is far outweighed by the advantages to new reno grass of Spring spoon fed fertilization. Do keep an eye on it for disease and have a fungicide on hand (I keep hose end Spectracide on the shelf).


----------



## Ridgerunner

I had hoped I had saved the link to the studies I referenced. Nada, but I did find an article about roots that I hope you find useful. I did not find the study that found an 10-30% increase in disease due to Spring N. With a little searching, I did find some links that I believe are pertinent (I need to develope a better file system). As a caveat, it has been my experience, that for every study that concludes something, there will be at least one study that contradicts those findings.
Roots in general:
http://sturf.lib.msu.edu/article/2000jun27.pdf
Study of N applications/rates for cool season and observations (including disease incidence)
https://www.agry.purdue.edu/turfnew/report/2006/16.pdf
A synopsis of another study
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/mitgc/article/2000155.pdf
Finally, an OSU article on N application timing (LSN)https://turfdisease.osu.edu/news/benefits-late-fall-fertilization-0 and containing a statement contradicting my statement that questions Spring N app reducing root growth.
@aug0211 I'll cease with mucking up your thread now.


----------



## g-man

Ridgerunner said:


> There is a similar theory regarding late fall N and snow mold.


This theory has some evidince to it.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833701627739664384


----------



## Ridgerunner

That the fellow from Wisconsin? I believe that study found higher incidence of snow mold for bent grass and poa annua. I don't believe that they have found a similar relationship (i.e. studied) with other cool season grasses, but as bent is a cool season grass, it might be wise to apply K with some caution regarding other cool season grasses.


----------



## aug0211

Wow, so much information - this is awesome, thanks everyone!

I'll admit, I'm now both torn and confused. Should I be spoon feeding N, to help with spreading and filling in some of my weak spots in my new lawn? Or putting K down? Or nothing?

I have fungicide on hand from last fall, if I put down N or K, should I go ahead and start a preventative fungicide treatment plan now?


----------



## aug0211

I got my pre-m down on Monday, 3/26 right before rain came in early Tuesday.

Lawn turned blue with the light drizzle and freaked me out! Looks back to normal now (though I'm thinking we have too much rain coming - worried about washout).

The glypho is doing its job on those patches I painted - man, it's going to look rough for a while!

I also have some spots of clear snow damage - I'll get photos up of the glypho spots and the snow damage areas as soon as I get a chance


----------



## aug0211

Oops - forgot to add I'm considering starting the anti-fungal early. I'm nervous about the back with all the flooding I've had - and will continue to have through the spring.

Also - check out these bad boys, super purple up at the top. More glypho painting?


----------



## aug0211

Things aren't looking good. More of what I think is quack is popping up all over. The glypho did its damage, so I have a polka dot lawn - it's very ugly. And I'm so bummed that more quack is popping up.

On top of that, I'm seeing some clover type weeds and broadleafs pop up. Weed pressure is intense


----------



## Ridgerunner

I'm seeing weed issues too. Unusual for me. I sat on the front porch yesterday and today and I can see weeds that popped up overnight. It's got to be the temperature yoyo we've had.


----------



## aug0211

Ridgerunner said:


> I'm seeing weed issues too. Unusual for me. I sat on the front porch yesterday and today and I can see weeds that popped up overnight. It's got to be the temperature yoyo we've had.


It's infuriating  I got my pre-M down towards the beginning of the "ideal" window and am still seeing stuff all over the place...


----------



## g-man

What you are seeing now are winter annuals. They were there since last year waiting for the right time. PreM will not help with those now.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> What you are seeing now are winter annuals. They were there since last year waiting for the right time. PreM will not help with those now.


This makes me feel much better. Thanks @g-man! So hopefully the pre-m wasn't a total bust for me, and these are just other ones I need to take care of with your recommendations (Weed-B-Gone CCO).

Headed out to good old Home Depot now to pick up the CCO. Of course, weather won't cooperate for a bit, but at least I'll have it on hand once weather turns for me.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> There is a similar theory regarding late fall N and snow mold.
> 
> 
> 
> This theory has some evidince to it.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833701627739664384
Click to expand...

Some irony - I did not end up doing any early spring N... wanted to avoid the risk in this photo. What's hilarious (to my neighbors, maybe - but not to me) is that my lawn looks like this photo, anyway - from all the glypho spots from fighting off the quack. It really is just about as bad as that photo - probably about 80% as bad. :|


----------



## aug0211

A couple of questions...

1. It seems odd to not be putting anything down to feed. Is there nothing I should be putting down (other than CCO to fight off my weeds)?

2. With all the weed pressure I'm seeing, should I consider mowing higher to help the KBG fight out the weeds? Or... keep it low? Ultimate goal is to be low-ish (1.5 or so), but if I need to go up to 2.5 or 3 to help fight out these weeds, I'm ok with that for now.


----------



## g-man

Are you following philes approach?



ericgautier said:


> stotea said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about for those of us who did a fall reno? Should we do anything different in spring?
> 
> 
> 
> After a fall reno, I am on the camp of aggressively feeding the lawn. Google "The Philes Phertilizer Lecture" and decide if that is something you want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These new KBG lawns are hungry for fertilizer. Very much like, (and if you renovated, exactly like) a sod farm, those guys that start with bare ground, throw some seed around, and by late July of every year, they are selling product: a deeply rooted, dense intertwined dark green carpet of lush (no bare spots) Kentucky Bluegrass. Now how do they do that every year? (And, of course, the implied question "How come you and I can't do it also?")
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2321&p=44626&hilit=phi%2A#p44592


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> Are you following philes approach?
> 
> 
> 
> ericgautier said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stotea said:
> 
> 
> 
> What about for those of us who did a fall reno? Should we do anything different in spring?
> 
> 
> 
> After a fall reno, I am on the camp of aggressively feeding the lawn. Google "The Philes Phertilizer Lecture" and decide if that is something you want to do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These new KBG lawns are hungry for fertilizer. Very much like, (and if you renovated, exactly like) a sod farm, those guys that start with bare ground, throw some seed around, and by late July of every year, they are selling product: a deeply rooted, dense intertwined dark green carpet of lush (no bare spots) Kentucky Bluegrass. Now how do they do that every year? (And, of course, the implied question "How come you and I can't do it also?")
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2321&p=44626&hilit=phi%2A#p44592
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! Truly, I think that anything GOOD in my lawn is thanks to you (everything else, is thanks to me messing up!).

I had not previously seen that - or if I had, it has been long enough that I had forgotten after everything else I absorbed while onboarding for the renovation procedures.

Ok - so I will definitely subscribe to this approach. Only concern is the earlier posts in this thread regarding the increased risk of mold with spring applications of N. I could go ahead and start my anti-fungal regimen now I guess (I have a few bags of the product ready to go).

With the N - the lecture is a bit unclear as to whether something like Urea is appropriate. Reading further through that thread, it seems like maybe 8 lbs/1k is a good rate to apply? I don't want to over do it, but I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I say I need some SERIOUS spreading of my KBG to fill in not only weak spots but the ~20% of my lawn I have had to kill off due to the Quack.

How about 8 lbs/1k every other week? Is every week too much?

Lastly.... thoughts on mowing height with this weed pressure?

Thanks again!


----------



## ABC123

Here's a neat thread. @Pete1313 does talk about his plan in post #2 about frequent feedings https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2374


----------



## aug0211

ABC123 said:


> Here's a neat thread. @Pete1313 does talk about his plan in post #2 about frequent feedings https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=2374


That is really helpful - thank you. Pete clearly knows what he is doing so I will heed his advice, as well. Also, I have no idea where I came up with the 8 lbs/k - lol. I think that must have been a note I had from the end of last year for the Fall blitz (8 lbs of Urea for my ~8k sq ft).


----------



## g-man

Target something like 0.20lb of N per week. Light frequent doses for a Reno. Any fast source works (urea, AS, AN).


----------



## Pete1313

Fertilizing the year after a reno is an important step, but can be alittle stressful. On one hand, you want to feed it so it can fill in during its establishment year. On the other hand, it's a first year lawn that is more susceptible to fungal pressure and any excess topgrowth could add to that risk. There is no rule that is set that you need to apply a certain amount of N. You need to take a look at your own lawn and see what it needs. If it's thin and needs to fill in, add some N. If it's growing so fast that you are bailing hay, back off of the N. If it starts looking good in late spring/early summer and you can get by with less N, then put down less so you don't force too much growth at the wrong time. Light frequent doses of quick release will work, but so will milo once the soil temps come up.


----------



## aug0211

Man, this forum is awesome. Thanks for the help - and for being just genuinely patient and helpful. It would have been easy to tell me it's been covered a hundred times, use search, or even just be condescending that I don't already know, etc.

Thanks for the help and patience!

I have insane weed pressure right now. Worst looking lawn I've ever had  Things were so great at the end of last year and then somehow fell off the tracks.

Quack is popping up all over and I glypho'd probably another 5% of my lawn today 

Chickeeed, clover, and some kind of thistle are also popping up everywhere.

I'm thinking I go for the frequent small N doses recommended by @Pete1313 and the herbicides... and a higher HOC in hopes that the KBG might help crowd out some of the weeds. Problem is, I also need it to spread horizontally to fill in weak spots and spots I've had to kill off.

Trying to be patient


----------



## Pete1313

I went back thru your reno. Looks like you used Scott's starter with mesotrione at seed down and then put down a pre-m a couple weeks ago? If correct, most of the weed pressure that you are seeing now is from the opportunity you gave them last fall. A post-m app of mesotrione around a month after germination and a stronger pre-m 30 days after that could have kept the reno cleaner this spring.

The pre-m that was put down this spring will help break the weed cycle but you will have some work to do to get rid of the weeds that you have now. Get after them, feed the lawn, and let it fill in. You have KBG, it will recover.


----------



## aug0211

Pete1313 said:


> I went back thru your reno. Looks like you used Scott's starter with mesotrione at seed down and then put down a pre-m a couple weeks ago? If correct, most of the weed pressure that you are seeing now is from the opportunity you gave them last fall. A post-m app of mesotrione around a month after germination and a stronger pre-m 30 days after that could have kept the reno cleaner this spring.
> 
> The pre-m that was put down this spring will help break the weed cycle but you will have some work to do to get rid of the weeds that you have now. Get after them, feed the lawn, and let it fill in. You have KBG, it will recover.


Thank you, Pete - you are correct. I am not sure where I picked it up, but skipping the fall pre-m was actually intentional. It looks like I shot myself in the foot on that one - and I honestly can't remember where I had read the info on skipping the pre-m. I'm sitting here now, cursing at myself wondering if it was because I was considering a spring second seeing - but that really wouldn't make much sense... I just can't remember why I decided against the fall pre-m.

I'm pretty annoyed with myself and a bit dejected. It's horrible out there. I'm hoping I can stay on track enough to keep the lawn and that I don't even up having to throw in the towel and do anothe Reno this fall.

I think with all the awesome info and help here, there's a chance of saving it, if I can just execute correctly.


----------



## iowa jim

I have also heard not to put down pre emergent in the fall and to wait for spring, when doing a reno. Maybe it depends on how many mows you get in before it gets to cold. But with that said you have to remember that this is peet saying this.:he has the gold metal of all renovations:


----------



## Pete1313

aug0211 said:


> I'm pretty annoyed with myself and a bit dejected. It's horrible out there. I'm hoping I can stay on track enough to keep the lawn and that I don't even up having to throw in the towel and do anothe Reno this fall.
> 
> I think with all the awesome info and help here, there's a chance of saving it, if I can just execute correctly.


You won't need to do another reno. You have KBG, it will spread. Be patient. I bet you will be surprised how many of your weeds will clear up with triclopyr or a good 3-way. And you will win the battle with quack. Stay at it. :thumbsup:


----------



## aug0211

Pete1313 said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty annoyed with myself and a bit dejected. It's horrible out there. I'm hoping I can stay on track enough to keep the lawn and that I don't even up having to throw in the towel and do anothe Reno this fall.
> 
> I think with all the awesome info and help here, there's a chance of saving it, if I can just execute correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> You won't need to do another reno. You have KBG, it will spread. Be patient. I bet you will be surprised how many of your weeds will clear up with triclopyr or a good 3-way. And you will win the battle with quack. Stay at it. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

Thanks, Pete! Words of inspiration 

Here are some photos of where we are right now (I've captured the toughest parts). Hopefully, I'm looking back at these in a few months thinking how far it's come!


----------



## aug0211

Got the CCO applied as well as some Weed-B-Gone without the triclopyr. Light app of N from Urea applied and will be patient now for a bit.


----------



## aug0211

The CCO is starting to do its job, I noticed some of the weeds browning up and wilting last night. Feeling much better - not there yet, though.

Mowed on Sunday AM and things look much better. I bagged because I don't want to risk spreading the weed further - will continue to bag until weed pressure is down. Is that a good idea?

I increased HOC just slightly. Did not get a chance to measure and I can't remember the heights but I went up one slot on the mower. Barely took any grass off but it did tidy things up a bit and cleaned up the look. I know those weeds are still there, though 

Probably do another round of glypho on the remaining quack grass. The first round I killed I was very aggressive and got everything I targeted. The second round, I used a lighter touch and it hurt the quack but didn't quite kill it off (yet).

I'll also be hoping that the weekly light N apps help encourage spreading to fill in all the dead brown spots. There are a lot, and some are quite large. I may throw some seed down over the brown spots towards the end of my current pre-m cycle... I know it probably will be a waste of seed with the pre-m, but I have a decent amount left and if I'm not doing another renovation, I don't know what I'll use it for if not for this...

Got irrigation turned on last night so that will help me as well.

I'll try to snap updated photos after my next mow. Probably this weekend based on current growth rates, unless the N kicks in.


----------



## Pete1313

aug0211 said:


> The CCO is starting to do its job, I noticed some of the weeds browning up and wilting last night. Feeling much better - not there yet, though.
> 
> Mowed on Sunday AM and things look much better. I bagged because I don't want to risk spreading the weed further - will continue to bag until weed pressure is down. Is that a good idea?


Good job getting the CCO down.. time to watch those weeds die!

Bagging sounds like a good idea to capture the weed seeds.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks, Pete!

I'm anxious of course - and tempted to do another round of the CCO, but what I'm reading says give it 2-3 weeks before doing a second app. Does that sound right to you?

I'll keep bagging away, for now!

Still looking like I'll have to do a 2nd app of glypho on the quack grass this weekend, unless things really accelerate over the next few days. I can see damage to the quack in some places, but it isn't browning up quite yet.


----------



## Pete1313

aug0211 said:


> I'm anxious of course - and tempted to do another round of the CCO, but what I'm reading says give it 2-3 weeks before doing a second app. Does that sound right to you?


Yes that sounds right.


----------



## aug0211

Pete1313 said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm anxious of course - and tempted to do another round of the CCO, but what I'm reading says give it 2-3 weeks before doing a second app. Does that sound right to you?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that sounds right.
Click to expand...

Got it! Will be patient 👍🏼


----------



## gregonfire

Looking good Aug. Reading through this past page, I wanted to chime in regarding the fall pre-m. I, like you, skipped the fall pre-m based on other's recommendations for a renovated lawn. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the purpose of skipping is because it can inhibit root growth in the grass at a time where you want it to grow as much as possible.

I have a decent amount of Poa A I'm dealing with as a result. Don't get discouraged, keep on doing what you're supposed to do and all will be fine!


----------



## social port

I think that another point of confusion regarding a PreM in late Augst/early September in cool season grass is that use of a PreM varies by turf type. A late August PreM might present no trouble for KBG, but prodiamine and dithiopyr are a problem for those with fescue lawns because of the need to overseed in the fall.


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

For fescue, maybe seed and use Tenacity at half rate and 30 days later another Tenacity app then after 30 days use regular prem? Should give 2 months for germination and growth with poa annua suppression and some weed suppression until regular prem can be used.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks all. Buddy of mine just put TTTF down yesterday. Perhaps the above tenacity plan can help him.

Still seeing progress on my lawn. It looks rough as heck - the CCO is slowly doing its job and the weeds that are dying off are showing how thin the grass is in those spaces.

The N last week kicked through on Saturday - so about 7 full days delayed effect for the growth to show up. I decided to give it a few days and not do the next round of N right away - I will get it down this week, probably more like 10-11 days from the last drop.

Some of the weeds are definitely dying, but some are hanging on. A few spots look completely nonplused from the CCO, so I anticipate doing a second spray this weekend.

Still debating what is the best HOC for me right now. Keep it low where I was last year? I'm still one notch up for now (will have to measure after next mow) with the thought being that I want to let the KBG try to crowd out and "shade out" the competing weeds. Lateral growth is also critical for me this year with the many spots of dead grass that I have from the glypho on the quack. I'm still thinking I'll gave *some* spots that have to be seeded this fall, based on how big the dead spots are.


----------



## aug0211

And now... this.

Pretty sure it's POA Annua 🙄
Photos are poor, sorry. Could not get the roots to come up with it. Very round stalk, firm/stiff and brittle. Visible seed heads, as shown.

Did my spring pre-m not work, or is this another winter seed that was already there?

Tenacity my only choice? Or can I get it with something while also hitting the CCO and/or broadleaf weeds?

I'm also surprised to see it got seed heads so quickly - the N boosted growth a bit, yes, but it's still not crazy long.

Mowed on a higher setting tonight and will drop it down a notch later this week.


----------



## Budstl

Poa a germinates in the fall. So a fall pre m is best for that. You can use tenacity for poa a or let it die out with summer heat. I'm super new to identifying poa so I'm not sure if what ya got there is or isn't.


----------



## aug0211

Latest updates - definitely lots of what I think is poa annua. Still some quack here and there that will need glypho. I also need another round of CCO to finish off the CCO (it's weak but still hanging on).

Still bagging when I cut for now... undecided on tenacity still vs. just waiting it out.

The brown spots are killing me - probably have to seed them this fall... we'll see how much they fill in before then.

Here are photos after today's cut... this is at 2" HOC. All raw/untouched so somewhat inconsistent (some are also in sun, some after sunset).


----------



## aug0211

Ok, question for anyone who can help:

Last fall I mowed the fresh reno between 1.5" and 2" HOC. This year, I've been mowing it between 2" and 2.5" HOC to help fight weed pressure.

Between cuts, it is (VERY rough estimate) around 3".

Is this enough growth to explain some KBG seed heads? If not, what would explain these seed heads? This is in a somewhat weak area, and there are multiple seed heads showing up.

I'm wondering if I had just lowered the crown and thus the entire plant to get used to that 1.5" height last year and now letting it get to ~3" between mowings is letting it go to seed?

Included my finger for scale because I wasn't near my tape measure (lazy!).


----------



## ericgautier

Seed heads are fine. Part of the cycle. Even @wardconnor gets them at 1/2" cut (see his 1/2 Inch KENTUCKY BLUEGRASS. Reel Mower video around 5:52 mark).


----------



## Pete1313

It's enough growth for seedheads. I'm now mowing at 7/8" and I'm getting some. You will get a few this year which is the first year after a reno but you will get even more next year.


----------



## aug0211

Excellent - thanks for confirming! These don't bother me much, as long as it's normal/expected (and not a sign of some other bigger issue).


----------



## g-man

I think it a sign of the opposite. Your lawn grew strong enough with enough carbs stored that it was able to produce seedheads. While I dont like the look of seedheads, it is to me a sign of a healthy lawn. One thing to do once you see seedheads, is get the blades sharp. The seedheads are thick and will shred if the blade is not sharp.

Also, in the patches of dead grass, I would remove some of the dead stuff. It helps the kbg spread into it in my opinion.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I think it a sign of the opposite. Your lawn grew strong enough with enough carbs stored that it was able to produce seedheads. While I dont like the look of seedheads, it is to me a sign of a healthy lawn. One thing to do once you see seedheads, is get the blades sharp. The seedheads are thick and will shred if the blade is not sharp.
> 
> Also, in the patches of dead grass, I would remove some of the dead stuff. It helps the kbg spread into it in my opinion.


Thanks, @g-man! Your input is always appreciated!

I'll plan to clear out some of those dead spots by hand this weekend. There are a LOT of them, unfortunately - so it will take a while. I'll try to do it gently to avoid disturbing the soil where I can.

I'm also on the hunt for a Pro Plugger equivalent that I can buy locally to maybe be able to pull some plugs of the "overseed" areas to move in to the dead spots this weekend. Any tips on that process, other than pull a plug form the dead spot, pull the plug of the good stuff, and drop it in? I assume thorough watering... avoid N? Give it N? I'll admit, I haven't run a search on the forum yet to research transporting plugs.


----------



## Pete1313

Plugging is simple like you said. Maybe alittle extra water. Try and get 4" deep plugs. If it's shallower, treat it like sod and water extra


----------



## g-man

The bulb planting tool could also be used for plugs. Redefining the mulch beds yields a ton of plugs too.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks @Pete1313 and @g-man! You guys rock.


----------



## aug0211

Look like my mower blade might be dull? Was measuring my HOC right after cut and it seems like the leaf blades are in rough shape.

Replaced my mower blade before the first cut of the reno last fall, so it's barely been used....

Included some post cut photos as well, though it's dark any only one area has enough light to capture.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looking good. Have you thought about moving some plugs into the glyphoed areas, or are you going to see if they fill in on there own?


----------



## aug0211

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Looking good. Have you thought about moving some plugs into the glyphoed areas, or are you going to see if they fill in on there own?


Great timing  Moved my first plug tonight. Too dark/late to keep going but wanted to get one just to try it. I bought a bulb planter on the way home tonight. Was able to confirm last night - with help in this thread - that I have a fair amount of bewitched in my beds that I will be able to move. Excited about that!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Oh shoot, I should of read a couple posts above and I would of seen you talked about moving plugs already. ardon:


----------



## g-man

aug0211 said:


> Replaced my mower blade before the first cut of the reno last fall, so it's barely been used....


On the rotary, I get it sharp before the first mow and around every 2 months. Looking at the lawn after a cut is the best way to tell. From the images, it is clear that the blades needs a file.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Replaced my mower blade before the first cut of the reno last fall, so it's barely been used....
> 
> 
> 
> On the rotary, I get it sharp before the first mow and around every 2 months. Looking at the lawn after a cut is the best way to tell. From the images, it is clear that the blades needs a file.
Click to expand...

Thanks! I'll give them a hit this weekend with my sharpener. Concerned that the replacements must be pretty bad quality to be so dull already.


----------



## chrisben

Slower RPMs can cause tearing too.


----------



## aug0211

chrisben said:


> Slower RPMs can cause tearing too.


So we're saying there's no option other than a TruCut C27-H, right? I have no choice? :-D


----------



## g-man

Haha! Any excuse for a feel?

Get your blade sharp. New ones are never sharp. Check your mower rpm to make sure they meet the specs.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> Haha! Any excuse for a feel?
> 
> Get your blade sharp. New ones are never sharp. Check your mower rpm to make sure they meet the specs.


👍🏼


----------



## chrisben

Haha


----------



## Rucraz2

All the blades I have seen out of the box are not sharp to begin with. Ive never just taken one out and threw it on the mower. Ive always sharpened new blades.


----------



## aug0211

A couple updated photos, raw/untouched as usual.

Doing double wides each mow now (dinky 21" mower - ugh).

If you zoom in, you can see the tape line at the back of the property - it has somehow made it through since I did the reno last fall, lol. I keep it up because I am technically past my property line into HOA territory so this helps keep the HOA mowers off


----------



## aug0211

Fighting off some dollar spot, been applying fungicide and just gave things a shot of N to hopefully grow through it.

Really considering a new mower. Even with sharp blades, I suspect that the spin speed isn't high enough and is causing some tearing -> fungus.

I'd like at least a 30" deck, preferably bigger - but storage is a concern for me.

The search begins!


----------



## zeus201

Reel mower = problem solved :thumbup:


----------



## aug0211

zeus201 said:


> Reel mower = problem solved :thumbup:


Yes.... I've been all about a TruCut 27"... but I'm not sure I'll be able to keep up with the maintenance it would need. And nervous about mowing that low - given the battles I've fought so far this year :-/

What to do...


----------



## aug0211

Also realized, I forgot to post up here that I moved about 500 (estimated) plugs around the lawn.

I let the overseed grow in the beds until a few weeks ago, and then used a 3" plugger to move plugs all over to fill in the dead spots I had killed off earlier in my battle against quack.

Weed pressure has dropped significantly - woo hoo! Thanks to the weed ID thread, with help from @g-man and others.

We'll see if the plugs make it - they look iffy so far, but it can't hurt (other than the time it took me to do it)!

I'll get some photos up tonight. I just tried but the lighting is horrible and they photos aren't useful at all.


----------



## aug0211

A few photos from today, not the greatest shots.

I'm still cutting double wides. It takes me about 2.5 hours to trim, mow, edge, and clean clippings. Bagging as well - due to the fungus.

A few photos here show where I have moved plugs into bare spots, and you can also see some rhizome growth - pretty cool to see it actually happening.

Oh - also a close up of the grass, and you can see the worst dollar spot section as well in another photo.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looks good. Go heavy with the urea this fall and you should be able to recover from your fungas and bare areas.


----------



## g-man

I agree, it looks good. Your dollar spot areas are not as bad as mine. It's been a rough year with dollar spot. ~6 more weeks to fall nitrogen.


----------



## Hyna32

I have dollar spot as well. Just cut a few clippings and ran them over to a local Advanced Turf Solutions site and they confirmed it. What are folks using as a curative btw? @g-man have you ever used Eagle20EW...domyown.com has it with great reviews.


----------



## g-man

Dollar Spot makes some of the blades go white in 2in diameters for me. It doesnt kill the grass. It just looks ugly and slows down grow. Fertilizer will help "cure it" by having new grow. My dollar spot pressure has been high (68%) but I'm not worried. I tried to prevent the damage but I'm giving up. Ordering some Bewitched.

Eagle20EW is myclobutanil and I've used it for other fungus.


----------



## Hyna32

Gotcha. Thnx @g-man


----------



## aug0211

Thanks all!

I'm putting down Propiconazole at the curative rate - mostly hoping to avoid spread, but maybe some will bounce back. Banking on the Urea to help.

I will also probably end up seeding at least one section where I did not do plugs - still hoping the other plugs make it through the summer and take off this fall.


----------



## aug0211

Picked up a new mower today. Still rotary - just not ready to commit to reel mowing, yet.

Went for another electric - last one was a push electric mower with a 20" deck (GreenWorks top of the line option a few years back).

This time around, I went with the Ryobi electric riding mower(RM480e). It's got a 38" deck and will be at home with my other electric stuff 

Need to find a good striping system for it, next. And find out how to store it - my car is in the driveway, for now lol!


----------



## steensn

Just read whole thread, good stuff (I mean, other than all the challenges). I'm just over in Westerville around the corner from you!


----------



## aug0211

steensn said:


> Just read whole thread, good stuff (I mean, other than all the challenges). I'm just over in Westerville around the corner from you!


Very cool! I was in Westerville before moving to my current location up north of the 'Ville. Love it there!


----------



## Creel

Looks like your lawn will be looking really good once we get into fall away from all this heat we have been having.


----------



## aug0211

Creel said:


> Looks like your lawn will be looking really good once we get into fall away from all this heat we have been having.


Thank you! Fingers crossed!

First cut with the new mower went pretty well. Going to have to learn to get better at my turns lol. A riding mower is a tad ridiculous for my sized lawn but..... well, I have no excuse. Lol.

Really excited to get through this fungus. And hoping the patches I seed this fall come in well.

I'm also curious - should I skip the fall pre-m since I have to see so many areas? Or try to somehow avoid the pre-m just on the spots I have to seed?


----------



## aug0211

Just realized I'm way overdue for photos. I'll get an updated round in after my next cut (later this week or weekend).

The fungus has definitely set things back a bit. From a distance, it looks like an under watered lawn. Up close, you can definitely see dollar spot. Looking back at older photos in the thread, it's a bummer to compare how it looks now.

Still learning the new mower. I'm still getting faster and fast with it, which is good, as that means I can sneak in more mows during the week 

I don't think my current striping setup is going to be permanent - so there will be some sort of project eventually!

I'm debating whether to put some N down, or milo, with the main goal being to help grow through the dollar spot. I'm also wondering if the grass is begging for other nutrients or if it's really just the fungus that has it looking so.... brown/dry/ugly.

I'm going light on irrigating, as everything I've read has said to be pull back in irrigation with fungus.

It's so hard not to dump water all over it with how brown it looks!


----------



## steensn

Have you dropped and fungaside? I had an issue, sprayed over two months, killed it all off, and have been fine watering since.


----------



## aug0211

steensn said:


> Have you dropped and fungaside? I had an issue, sprayed over two months, killed it all off, and have been fine watering since.


Yes, I've been dropping the below product (Bayer Advanced Granular Fungus Control) at the curative rate.

3 apps so far, done 14 days apart at 3.5#/k.

Just last night I thought "maybe this is *starting* to clear up...." but I'm not convinced either way.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bayer-Advanced-10-lbs-Granules-Fungus-Control-for-Lawns-701230/202019115


----------



## aug0211

Dropped 3 bags of black flag (not in love with the product but it was on sale) and 8 bags of milo last night.

Giving some extra water right now - trying to take advantage of the slightly cooler water to push through this fungus. I do think it may be turning the corner.


----------



## bellts02

Has anyone tried diluted milk as a fungicide for dollar spot? I used it for powdery mildew and it seemed to work really well.


----------



## aug0211

Couple of quick photos - day after a mow and not great lighting for stripes to show, but you can see how it's doing in general. Still bald spots from where I killed quack earlier, and you can see where the dollar spot has killed a fair amount off.

Also, some close ups of a "question mark" spot - I think there is maybe some fescue mixed in right here - any thoughts? I definitely see KBG but also think there is some fescue in the close ups.


----------



## steensn

Looks like it is filling in real nice though!


----------



## aug0211

steensn said:


> Looks like it is filling in real nice though!


Thank you! I have been working the HOC back down, gradually, now that we've (hopefully) come through the high point of the heat of summer. This week looks to be getting back to the mid/low-80s (with the exception of today and tomorrow). Really hoping to get HOC back down to around 2" before we hit the fall N blitz - under the theory that it will help encourage lateral growth. I think I am going to use a hybrid approach to my bare spots.

The areas with LOTS of spots (big or small), as well as any "really big" patches will not receive a fall pre-m, nor will they receive the N blitz. instead, they'll get a reseed in the bare spots.

Everything else will receive the pre-m as well as fall N blitz.

Should make for a fun maintenance schedule for me - between growing new seed in bare spots and doing the rest of the lawn with an N blitz - lol :shock:

A bit nervous about watering for the new seedlings with all of the fungus battles I've been fighting, but I'll keep on the fungicide and hope for the best.


----------



## g-man

I would not seed. Get a plugger and plug. Kbg really spreads.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I would not seed. Get a plugger and plug. Kbg really spreads.


I have plugged so much. I think I estimated 550 plugs in my last round. I went through 3 pluggers lol.

I'm not against it - if I can find enough good donors to plug. Ok, I'll lean against seeding and toward plugging. Thx!!!


----------



## aug0211

Latest batch of photos, taken today after a mow. I promise I wasn't drunk with these stripes - lol.

Dropped it down another notch, I got 1-3/4" on a strip against the driveway - must have had my wheels on the driveway now that I think about it? Rest of lawn is at 2.5".

You can see some great spreading (finally!) in some of these photos, as well as the plugs I've moved around.

You can also see that I hit a soft spot in the turf while mowing, I was surprised by that.

There's also an interesting patch that I've been watching that is very, very dark green/blue. It has a pronounced mos-vein and boat tips so I think it is KBG but it is just so much darker than everything else. Interesting. Just maturing before the other things around it?

Also, be sure to check out the little dude, already out measuring grass at age 2.5. He's on a great trajectory for LOTM in 2046! LOL!


----------



## g-man

I don't see anything that worries me with spreading. The lawn does look a little water stressed with the heat. Dropping your hoc should help the Bewitched spread.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I don't see anything that worries me with spreading. The lawn does look a little water stressed with the heat. Dropping your hoc should help the Bewitched spread.


Thank you. Water stressed as in it wants more water? That's how it looks to me, I've just been hesitant to (until this week) due to the fungus.

I'll get some shots of the really weak (bare) spots to upload to see what you think about seeding.

As always, thx for the help!


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I don't see anything that worries me with spreading. The lawn does look a little water stressed with the heat. Dropping your hoc should help the Bewitched spread.


Ok, here's the ugly stuff! The worst of the worst. I forgot an item to show scale so my foot will have to do 

What do you think? Hope for spreading, or seed any of these areas?

Also, thoughts on 2" HOC for spreading? Or should I go lower? Is there a sweet spot?


----------



## g-man

I would plug the really big areas. It will spread 4-6inches. So those large areas will converge towards the center.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I would plug the really big areas. It will spread 4-6inches. So those large areas will converge towards the center.


Perfect, thank you! I'll scout out my donor plug spots (mulch beds) 😂


----------



## aug0211

New striper on tonight (Big Leagues Checkmate).

I need to improve with the riding mower, still. Overlapping way too much in spots!

The lower mow is showing the weak spots from the fungus. Going to have to be patient and hope it's a great fall!


----------



## aug0211

Still recovering from the fungus - but it seems to be growing through it.

Starting to see more spreading and filling behavior - not quite as aggressive as I need, but it's still August and I haven't even started the blitz yet. Fingers crossed for a successful fall.

Getting too much rain right now - the ground is totally saturated and has been for days.


----------



## aug0211

Few more updates - not much product lately, just focusing on mowing and irrigation.

Fungus is still improving, thinking I'll hit it with another treatment this weekend.

Dropped the HOC another notch


----------



## iowa jim

Looks great, nice stripes too.


----------



## aug0211

iowa jim said:


> Looks great, nice stripes too.


Thanks! It's coming! Excited for fall temps to hit!


----------



## aug0211

Time for a check in... Things are going pretty well. Photos uploaded out of order (sorry). Unedited/untouched iPhone photos as usual, I wish I had more photography skills.

Did a little project last weekend to add:
•topsoil
•peatmoss
•sand
to a low drainage spot in the back that floods (see earlier photos).

Been doing the aggressive N treatment and things look good, filling in nicely. Excited to see what year 2 looks like next year! Still plenty of time and work left for this year though - fall weather is already doing wonders.


----------



## steensn

That looks amazing... I'm jealous


----------



## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> Things are going pretty well. ...


I'd say things are doing well. That photo of the "hell strip" (aka boulevard, parking strip, terrace, sidewalk planting, tree lawn, etc.) is absolutely fantastic for one of the places that is always just about the most difficult to grow good grass.

Well done!


----------



## JP900++

Looks great!!


----------



## aug0211

Thanks! You all made me smile 

Funny how to each of us, our lawns look like a total shipwreck, yet others have nice things to say about them. I see all kinds of imperfections and frustrations and future projects when I look at my lawn 

Your kind words are encouraging and motivating!


----------



## aug0211

aug0211 said:


> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty annoyed with myself and a bit dejected. It's horrible out there. I'm hoping I can stay on track enough to keep the lawn and that I don't even up having to throw in the towel and do anothe Reno this fall.
> 
> I think with all the awesome info and help here, there's a chance of saving it, if I can just execute correctly.
> 
> 
> 
> You won't need to do another reno. You have KBG, it will spread. Be patient. I bet you will be surprised how many of your weeds will clear up with triclopyr or a good 3-way. And you will win the battle with quack. Stay at it. :thumbsup:
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks, Pete! Words of inspiration
> 
> Here are some photos of where we are right now (I've captured the toughest parts). Hopefully, I'm looking back at these in a few months thinking how far it's come!
Click to expand...

Wow - back in April, I was really frustrated with where things were. @Pete1313, @g-man and plenty of the other veterans around here encouraged me to stick with it and trust the KBG.

Looking back at those photos from April, you guys sure were right. Thanks for the continued advice along the way! You sure know what you're talking about and I'm grateful for all of your help.


----------



## Pete1313

aug0211 said:


> Funny how to each of us, our lawns look like a total shipwreck, yet others have nice things to say about them. I see all kinds of imperfections and frustrations and future projects when I look at my lawn


This lawn hobby is a nasty disease.. you can have the best lawn in the whole town, and still be disappointed at the smallest imperfection.



aug0211 said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pete1313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> You won't need to do another reno. You have KBG, it will spread. Be patient. I bet you will be surprised how many of your weeds will clear up with triclopyr or a good 3-way. And you will win the battle with quack. Stay at it. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks, Pete! Words of inspiration
> 
> Here are some photos of where we are right now (I've captured the toughest parts). Hopefully, I'm looking back at these in a few months thinking how far it's come!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow - back in April, I was really frustrated with where things were. @pete, @g-man and plenty of the other veterans around here encouraged me to stick with it and trust the KBG.
> 
> Looking back at those photos from April, you guys sure were right. Thanks for the continued advice along the way! You sure know what you're talking about and I'm grateful for all of your help.
Click to expand...

 :thumbsup: Your lawn is looking beautiful! It has come a long way since those April pics. Your hard work is definately paying off.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Looking awesome.


----------



## aug0211

Thanks Snowbob and Pete.

Things that are really bothering me:
1. A few of the spots that I had killed off earlier - they don't look nearly as bad as they used to, but I have a handful of small round circles left that need to fill in. Hopefully that is done this fall 

2. The trench at the back of the property (ok, not the back of the property.... it's off my property, but I maintain it). I did the 85' french drain that I then buried and seeded with my reno. KBG came in and did OK, but then started dying off and struggled through the spring with how often it was flooding. I added some matter to try to raise it up some, but there are grading issues and ultimately, that area is designed to be a runoff section for the entire row of homes that I am in. It's simply designed to "flood" down to the sewer grate a few lots down. I'm not sure what to do on this one.

3. Cutting patterns - I bought a nice new big mower (riding Ryobi, electric) that I really like - but it is not a zero-turn, so I'm somewhat limited in my mowing patterns in my residential lot. There is one section that I've started to see ruts. I'd love to be able to do more mowing patterns, but just can't maneuver the mower well enough to allow me to do diagonals the way I want, so I'm stuck in vertical stripes.... for now.

4. Leveling - I cannot wait to do a leveling project. I'm really looking forward to this, either next spring or fall (spring if things look good enough when everything wakes up from the winter), otherwise probably fall.

5. Edging the beds - yep, that awesome spreading that is so helpful... well, you all know this story. my beds not only have KBG creeping in to them, but also have tons of random spots of grass that popped up from overseed when I did the reno. I used probably 80% of those "pop up" plants for plugs this year. I'm torn on killing the others off vs. trying to plug them in weak spots. Next year, though, I will probably need to rake out all the beds, put down that weed-block lining stuff in the beds, and then put in some edging material around all of the beds in hopes of keeping the KBG out.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> 2. The trench at the back of the property ... KBG came in and did OK, but then started dying off and struggled through the spring with how often it was flooding. ... It's simply designed to "flood" down to the sewer grate a few lots down. I'm not sure what to do on this one.


Sounds like you need to replace the grass in that area with something that can tolerate being flooded for a few days every year. Maybe a sedge? 



aug0211 said:


> 5. Edging the beds - yep, that awesome spreading that is so helpful... I used probably 80% of those "pop up" plants for plugs this year.


Yup. I do the same. I use a Pro Plugger to pull those plants out of the beds and transplant to holes in the lawn that I want to fill faster (like the hole you mentioned in item #1)...

Our beds are edged with granite cobblestones (well, that's what everybody calls them in New England; they're more accurately "Belgian blocks"), which helps keep the KBG out, but the grass still sends rhizomes in between the cobblestones, but the granite blocks do reduce the spread a bit. I like the granite cobblestones as they look awesome, last longer than a lifetime, and let me run the mower wheels right on top of them without suffering any damage.

I also have a bed which is edged with the landscape edging I posted about somewhere else here in the past 24 hours, which works well at keeping most of the KBG out.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Valley-View-Industries-Royal-Diamond-60-ft-L-x-1-in-W-Black-Lawn-Edging-RD-60/100058957


----------



## aug0211

ken-n-nancy said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2. The trench at the back of the property ... KBG came in and did OK, but then started dying off and struggled through the spring with how often it was flooding. ... It's simply designed to "flood" down to the sewer grate a few lots down. I'm not sure what to do on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you need to replace the grass in that area with something that can tolerate being flooded for a few days every year. Maybe a sedge?
> 
> 
> 
> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 5. Edging the beds - yep, that awesome spreading that is so helpful... I used probably 80% of those "pop up" plants for plugs this year.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Yup. I do the same. I use a Pro Plugger to pull those plants out of the beds and transplant to holes in the lawn that I want to fill faster (like the hole you mentioned in item #1)...
> 
> Our beds are edged with granite cobblestones (well, that's what everybody calls them in New England; they're more accurately "Belgian blocks"), which helps keep the KBG out, but the grass still sends rhizomes in between the cobblestones, but the granite blocks do reduce the spread a bit. I like the granite cobblestones as they look awesome, last longer than a lifetime, and let me run the mower wheels right on top of them without suffering any damage.
> 
> I also have a bed which is edged with the landscape edging I posted about somewhere else here in the past 24 hours, which works well at keeping most of the KBG out.
> 
> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Valley-View-Industries-Royal-Diamond-60-ft-L-x-1-in-W-Black-Lawn-Edging-RD-60/100058957
Click to expand...

Excellent feedback! Thank you for this!

I'm still holding out on the KBG in that drainage area though... it seems like if I can get the drainage done well enough (and correctly graded), it should be manageable... I'm thinking I messed up the grading last year when I put in the French drain, and that if I fix that, I may be back in the ball game... fingers crossed, anyway!


----------



## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> I'm still holding out on the KBG in that drainage area though... it seems like if I can get the drainage done well enough (and correctly graded), it should be manageable... I'm thinking I messed up the grading last year when I put in the French drain, and that if I fix that, I may be back in the ball game... fingers crossed, anyway!


I agree that there is probably hope for the KBG in that area. More mature grass tolerates short-term flooding better than younger grass, so you just need the grass to get established enough.

I have a similar area at the woods / edge boundary along a "peninsula" of lawn I have between the road and the woods at our house. The water all drains from the road, over the lawn, to the woods boundary, which is a localized low spot. Even though the soil is very sandy and percolates quite well, when we get major amounts of rain, say more than 3" in a day, that area will have standing water for about 24 hours or so. Some of the grass dies off when that happens, but the soil in that area actually becomes pretty rich from the sediment and runoff, so the grass grows back into it pretty quickly afterwards. It also has the advantage of not being particularly prominent (it's not like it's the center of the front lawn), so it doesn't bother me much to have it look poorer than the rest of the lawn.

Was the French drain intended to remove water from that area, or get water off other places (like the home foundation) to that area? To where does the French drain deliver the water? Does it exit to above ground on the downhill side of that big swale area?


----------



## Hyna32

Hey @aug0211 great looking lawn! I've peeked at this thread a few times as I did a spring reno this year and always interested in how the other 1yr and 2yr Bewitched anniversary lawns look. Yours is green and quite dense, congrats! BTW what poles are using on the patio perimeter to hold up the lights (and I see tension wire? as well)? We redid our patio this spring and haven't been able to nail down a decent party light solution, yours looks solid! :beer:


----------



## aug0211

Thanks!

I dug 2' holes and sunk these poles into them to a depth of 1.5', and backfilled with cement.

The poles are galvanized steel, I believe I went with 2" diameter and I believe 10' fall. I painted them flat black.

I used steel cables run in both directions across the patio, anchored at the poles. This was required as the lights I went with are really nice commercial grade outdoor all season LEDs... but very heavy!

Fun project! It took a few weekends to get it all done, but it's been worth it. I have it hooked up to a smart dimmer switch so I can control it from my phone, set programs, or with Alexa via voice control. I have them set to dim from 0% up to 10% over 10 minutes or so and stay at 10% for a few hours, then slowly dim back down to 0% by 11 PM, the slow dim is a cool effect (can be overridden of course).

I had them on a smart, no dimming outlet to start - and it was comical. It was like the FBI had lit up the back of my house with helicopter floodlights and high powered spotlights, lol. 100% was just WAY too much. I think the max I hit regularly is 15% of the dinner, but really 10-15 is the sweet spot.

If you're interested in specific products, let me know and I can dig that up through my order history on Amazon.

It's really difficult to photograph...


----------



## Hyna32

@aug0211 Thanks! I bought a few 8' tall, 3/4"dia pieces of conduit a few weeks back as a proof of concept. Galvanized steel and painted...makes sense. Being its already October, I probably won't look at doing this until the Spring...don't be surprised if I reach out to you again. Thanks!


----------



## aug0211

Hyna32 said:


> @aug0211 Thanks! I bought a few 8' tall, 3/4"dia pieces of conduit a few weeks back as a proof of concept. Galvanized steel and painted...makes sense. Being its already October, I probably won't look at doing this until the Spring...don't be surprised if I reach out to you again. Thanks!


Of course! The only problem I'm having with the setup right now is that the irrigation is wearing off some of the paint on spots where the sprinkler heads are really close to the poles. Check out the pole closest to my son in the last photo I posted above - you can see where some of the black paint is wearing off about 1.5-2' up from the ground.


----------



## aug0211

Some more photos from this evening. I mowed yesterday but had to lift things up a bit. Mowed again tonight to get back to my preferred HOC (for now).

Did my first 45-degree cut, man that is a PITA. My mower is not a zero turn so it's annoying as heck to turn on the property lines. I scalped one small patch of my hell strip - you can see it in the photos - no excuses there, I just got sloppy coming off the turf onto the driveway. Ugh.

I also didn't get my paths to line up very well across the driveway. Overall it was a much slower process than I'm used to and much more painful to maneuver.

It was too dark for photos in the back by the time I finished up, so here are front photos only.


----------



## iowa jim

WOW-fantastic and what color.


----------



## aug0211

iowa jim said:


> WOW-fantastic and what color.


Thanks! Lots of trying to follow directions from all the smart people here, and a bit of luck. I attribute my couple problem spots to myself, the rest of it really is just from stealing others' info and begging for persistent, patient advice 

Really excited for lawn leveling next year. I think that will help a lot.

Also really itching to do more for that back patch. I've got seeds soaking, knowing there is almost no hope of them taking before we get freezes, but I figure I will throw them down Wednesday or so and hope for the best for that back area.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> Some more photos from this evening. ... Did my first 45-degree cut, man that is a PITA.


That looks awesome! The first photo, in particular, with the colors of the setting sun at the top of the clouds in the sky looks great!


----------



## aug0211

ken-n-nancy said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Some more photos from this evening. ... Did my first 45-degree cut, man that is a PITA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That looks awesome! The first photo, in particular, with the colors of the setting sun at the top of the clouds in the sky looks great!
Click to expand...

Thanks! You're right, that one turned out cool. I wish I could claim that it was intentional! I've never really had an eye for photography, though!


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## jessehurlburt

LOTM material here. Very well done!


----------



## aug0211

jessehurlburt said:


> LOTM material here. Very well done!


Haha thanks  Maybe next year after I get leveling done and knock out a few of the other weak spots!


----------



## aug0211

Getting lower...

One photo shows 1" but actual height is more like 0.75"-2" through high and low spots. Average is 1.75"-2".


----------



## g-man

On a rotary? 1in? Wow

How are the spots that need to fill in?


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> On a rotary? 1in? Wow
> 
> How are the spots that need to fill in?


Yeah that 1" is not the best representative. A few spots are even lower, but most are more like 1.5" I'd say. After I took the photo I thought "that can't be right" so I went and measured some more. Others are up to 2".

I'll measure the deck from the ground shortly.

Still have some filling to do on one side of the yard, and of course the drain strip in the back - plus a few random spots here and there that I did not plug earlier.

Here's a photo of what was a roughly 2' bare spot that I put a few plugs into - and they've taken off nicely. Many of the other spots are fully filled in now - amazing, it's the most bizarre feeling looking at what used to be a bare spot and seeing it full now. You guys weren't kidding about spreading!

Here is that big spot I mentioned that I plugged.


----------



## aug0211

Measured some more spots, 1.5" is a good average where paper sits.

Mower blades meaurse at 1.75" from the ground in the garage.

I expect the grass blade length is probably more like 1.75"-2" factoring in the mower sinking a tad into the softer ground (decreases HOC, but then the roller and burning in of my stripes means the blades are at quite an angle so they are longer than the paper test is measuring).

Not sure if any of that made sense - lol. I'd say actual blade length is 1.75-2" when you account for the angle they lay down at due to striping.


----------



## rob13psu

:thumbsup:



aug0211 said:


> Getting lower...
> 
> One photo shows 1" but actual height is more like 0.75"-2" through high and low spots. Average is 1.75"-2".


----------



## aug0211

Been a while, checking in with some winter photos.

Not much going on of course, as we're still in winter mode here. Itching for Spring though, and starting to think about that pre-m...

Interesting contrast between the dormant Bewitched monostand and the dormant surrounding properties.


----------



## iowa jim

Thats not a domination line, thats a butt kickin line. ( sweet )


----------



## aug0211

Been way too long since I posted, but I've been going again for about a month.

Got the pre-m down on April 3 and started mowing right around then.

Put down 4 bags of Milo at bag rate on 4/24.

I can see some new growth popping up (via rhizomes) to fill in some of the bare spots from last year - that's so cool.

The back/drainage/flood area continues to flood with heavy rains (and we've had consistent rain for a week, with more coming). That's very frustrating. I tried to get some seed down there early with more topsoil and peat moss, knowing it'd probably be a waste - and I'm sure it's all gone now. I'll have to be patient there until the fall, I think.

A few photos from the early mows - I've been mowing pretty low again, will have to measure the new height. Had the mower on the lowest setting. Scalped a handful of places that I'll need to level out later on in the year.

We also put in a spa on a new concrete pad, so I'll be doing work to define a new mulch bed there and will be planing 10 or 11 Emerald Green Arborvitae for privacy.

A bit behind on mulch, that'll be next week.


----------



## aug0211

The project for today was making and raising a new bed alongside of a cement pad we recently had installed for a hot tub.

The cement pad is 6" and came up the full 6" above the ground level on the "lawn" side. We needed to backfill with topsoil and gently grade it down into the lawn so it wasn't a big ugly concrete edge.

Additionally, we decided to plant 11 Arborvitate (Emerald Green) trees (5-6' height) for privacy. This will be a privacy screen (these trees like to grow together into a screen) giving privacy from the neighbors as well as from the street (a small but clear view from the back of the house to the street out front). 8 trees in a straight line on the long edge of the spa, and 3 in a gentle but tight curve coming to the edge of the home.

Hoping to get better shots tomorrow, but here's a start.

I also removed one sprinkler head that no longer makes sense with the spa pad and spa taking over the old bed, and dug up the irrigation line. I plan to relocate that head and convert that portion into a drip system spanning the 11 trees.


----------



## aug0211

Some photos after this last mow.

Seed heads like crazy!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

That's looking great.


----------



## aug0211

SNOWBOB11 said:


> That's looking great.


Thanks, @SNOWBOB11. I'm not over the moon about the color - it's not bad by any means, but it's just not quite as dark green/blue as I'd like. There is one tuft growing in a mulch bed (need to clear those out/transplant eventually) that is a great dark green, almost blue - makes the rest of the lawn look bad. I need to find out if that dark blue bunch is KBG that is somehow getting better nutrients, or if it is a different grass that just looks a lot better than my Bewitched.

Or maybe I'm just missing some basic nutrients for my Bewitched... I still have not done a soil test, which doesn't make any sense, I need to just man up and get it done.


----------



## ericgautier

Looking good!


----------



## iowa jim

Get that soil test done and it may show you the problem. You could have a high ph and that would mean that you would need a chelated iron or if not a high ph you good be low on iron naturally. It could be low on some nutrients also and try to get 3-4 lbs. of n down this year.


----------



## Mrotatori

> It was too dark for photos in the back by the time I finished up, so here are front photos only.


I am reading through your journal. Your lawn looks great. Your progress gives me encouragement in areas of my lawn that are struggling. I am starting my 2nd half kbg reno for the fall. My first year KBG reno is coming along. I look forward to the fall when I can spoon feed it. This is it's first summer and it's a struggle.


----------



## aug0211

Mrotatori said:


> It was too dark for photos in the back by the time I finished up, so here are front photos only.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am reading through your journal. Your lawn looks great. Your progress gives me encouragement in areas of my lawn that are struggling. I am starting my 2nd half kbg reno for the fall. My first year KBG reno is coming along. I look forward to the fall when I can spoon feed it. This is it's first summer and it's a struggle.
Click to expand...

Thanks, and hang in there. The first summer was so tough. The lawn is in a completely different place today than a year ago. The progress KBG makes in amazing to see. I would have never imagined it could fill in so much on its own!

I'm due for some updated photos - perhaps this weekend after mowing.

Biggest thing I am fighting right now is nutsedge (every year it pops up) and dollar spot. It's always something


----------



## g-man

@aug0211 how is the lawn looking after the summer heat?


----------



## aug0211

Man I am horrible at photos this year!

It's looking good right now. Very lush and green! I'm keeping my HOC much higher right now to help with the heat and also because I have been slammed for time lately and only able to mow once each week.

I have a few small fungus spots, nothing too scary or ugly but I know they're there (and need to spray).

I also have nutsedge popping up. I've sprayed two rounds but noticed more popping up this morning as I was leaving for work.

I'll try to remember to get some updated photos this weekend!


----------



## aug0211

Took some photos just now, none are too great as usual. Had trouble uploading from my phone so will try next time I'm on my computer &#128077;


----------



## aug0211

Latest photos - I have some sprinkler heads to touch up for more even coverage and still need to get (1) fungicide and (2) sedge killer down.

5 bags of milo ready to go but I'd like to wait for cooler temps. I'll also do nitro blitz so I have to think about that timing.

I'll also re-seed the strip across the back (tough to grow there because it's a drainage line and floods with heavy rains).

Standard iPhone photos below.


----------



## Alex1389

Dude where were these pics when LOTM nominations were going on?! Looks great!


----------



## aug0211

Alex1389 said:


> Dude where were these pics when LOTM nominations were going on?! Looks great!


 Thanks Alex! Still plenty of work to do and improvements to make. Excited to get that back strip taken care of in the fall. I'd also like to clean up my edging a bit around the beds. Always room for improvement 👍


----------



## Mark B

Just read through your journal and congratz are in order, you've put in the time and effort and its paid off. Looks really, really good!

I'm in the U.K. and am always interested in a *** lawn journey as I'm about to reno mine. Subbed. Catch ya later


----------



## KoopHawk

aug0211 said:


> Rofl, I didn't... yet. Bummed about the rust, but still overall happy with how things are looking. I spent about 45 minutes fiddling with my mower before cutting and improved my striping a tad. Still nowhere near where I want it, but it's getting better.
> 
> I snapped a few photos of the front *during halftime of the OSU blowout* (  ) and will grab some of the back in a moment (dark now but the security lights help some).


That was a great day


----------



## aug0211

KoopHawk said:


> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rofl, I didn't... yet. Bummed about the rust, but still overall happy with how things are looking. I spent about 45 minutes fiddling with my mower before cutting and improved my striping a tad. Still nowhere near where I want it, but it's getting better.
> 
> I snapped a few photos of the front *during halftime of the OSU blowout* (  ) and will grab some of the back in a moment (dark now but the security lights help some).
> 
> 
> 
> That was a great day
Click to expand...

😞 I see you're researching *** Elite! I wish POA and Quack and fungus upon you! Just kidding - I really wouldn't wish any of those on anyone.

I'm curious, which cultivar(s) are you leaning toward, or have you already pulled the trigger?


----------



## aug0211

TheWhiteWizard said:


> Just read through your journal and congratz are in order, you've put in the time and effort and its paid off. Looks really, really good!
> 
> I'm in the U.K. and am always interested in a *** lawn journey as I'm about to reno mine. Subbed. Catch ya later


Thanks! It's a process but is definitely starting to pay off.

What are you planning for your reno?


----------



## KoopHawk

aug0211 said:


> KoopHawk said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> aug0211 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rofl, I didn't... yet. Bummed about the rust, but still overall happy with how things are looking. I spent about 45 minutes fiddling with my mower before cutting and improved my striping a tad. Still nowhere near where I want it, but it's getting better.
> 
> I snapped a few photos of the front *during halftime of the OSU blowout* (  ) and will grab some of the back in a moment (dark now but the security lights help some).
> 
> 
> 
> That was a great day
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 😞 I see you're researching *** Elite! I wish POA and Quack and fungus upon you! Just kidding - I really wouldn't wish any of those on anyone.
> 
> I'm curious, which cultivar(s) are you leaning toward, or have you already pulled the trigger?
Click to expand...

Finally got thru your whole thread. Holy cow you overcame some major challenges!

Building a new house and hoping to be in by Thanksgiving so seed will go down next spring. Two kids and my wife won't let me have bare dirt all summer so spring it is. I've got it narrowed down to Bewitched, Bluebank, and Mazama. My number 1 priority is I want it to be dark.

I'm leaning towards Mazama at this point because I've seen it in other threads, it posted good disease resistance numbers, and it's dark color. One year it posted a 8.7 genetic color score at the Ames NTEP site. It's color seemed to be higher than the other varieties and closer to the mean across other sites. Kove's Thread has Mazama and Bewitched growing side by side and Mazama is noticeably darker.

Bewitched twice scored a perfect 9 at the Ames site but 11 -9s were handed out in 2008 and 6 - 9s were handed out in 2006. In 06 it was given a 9 at Ames but the mean from all 13 sites was 7.1 and 08 the mean was 7.4. So I'm not sure who was handing out such high scores but 35 varieties scored a mean of 8+ at Ames from 2006-2010. No mean of 8 was achieved from the 2012-2016 NTEP tests at Ames. Midnight was tested in both and from 06-10 posted a 8.7 and 12-16 posted a 7.8.

Bluebank color was more consistent at the Ames site but didn't have as high of a ceiling. It scored an 8 in 2016 when Mazama posted the 8.7. If I could see Bluebank in action it might overtake Mazama. I could do some test plots but I don't feel like spending $200 on 2 pounds of each from SSS.


----------



## Mark B

aug0211 said:


> TheWhiteWizard said:
> 
> 
> 
> Just read through your journal and congratz are in order, you've put in the time and effort and its paid off. Looks really, really good!
> 
> I'm in the U.K. and am always interested in a *** lawn journey as I'm about to reno mine. Subbed. Catch ya later
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks! It's a process but is definitely starting to pay off.
> 
> What are you planning for your reno?
Click to expand...

I guess I'm aiming for a tier 2 lawn with some elite seed.
An 85% Tetris KBG 15% poa Supina mix. U.K. does not offer any elite pure blend KBG seeds as far as I can see. I have asked a few companies who don't seem to be interested in small guys like me. The poa Supina will be interesting, I haven't seen much talk about it here. 
I'm aiming to gly tomorrow and level and aerate for a week or so before another round of gly. I've started a journal.


----------



## aug0211

Getting ready to prep for seed down later this month in my favorite drainage strip in the back.

I'll need to add more topsoil and will definitely want to use peat (ugh - not my favorite to put down) due to the struggle of getting irrigation coverage on that strip (it may or may not be past my property line, lol).

Also getting excited to start bringing my HOC back down. I've let it get high because of our intense heat and my inability to keep up with mowing after starting a new job. Things are settling in for me and with fall right around the corner, I can't wsit to get back to ~1.5" HOC.


----------



## g-man

@aug0211 how is the Bewitched this year?


----------



## aug0211

Hey @g-man I am way behind! Went into CV19 lockdown in March, and for us it's a bit stricter because we are an increased risk family. So getting supplies is a bit tougher.

Green up was later than surrounding lawns this year - interesting because if you recall, I did not do an N dump to winterize last year (fungus concerns).

In the past week, we went from a bright green to a much darker green and are now far darker than surrounding lawns. Interesting - I read something somewhere (can't remember where) that a lawn with a deeper root system may green up more slowly?

I have visible remnants of fungus damage from last year. I was mowing diagonally in the back of the property and I have diagonal stripes of fungus damage where there is dead, brown grass. It's growing around and under the dead grass, but I can easily see it from above.

I got my pre-m down on time and it's working, weed pressure is low.

I feel like the lawn needs food though, it hasn't taken off yet and is growing very slowly. Part of me is OK with that because I can't mow much (it is so wet, I tore up a part of the lawn mowing 2 weeks ago). I am not sure what it needs though?

I killed off a bunch of spots of fescue that had somehow crept in on the S side of the home. I did this on the N side last year and this year the S side got the treatment. Paintbrush style, but I'll still have really ugly brown spots for a while.

I have been mowing all the way down for the few mows I've had but am tempted to raise the deck today. I just want to keep this lawn healthy and I am so nervous about fungus!

I did get antifungal down a couple of weeks ago, but seeing the amount of water we are getting and the damage from last year has me jumpy.

And recommendations? I think I need some good food for the lawn (but has to be deliverable, can't go to a store due to our family/COVID situation) - especially to help fill in these dead spots I am creating by killing off fescue. I also need to make sure I am doing everything right to ward off fungus.


----------



## aug0211

Some shots showing the trouble included below. The overhead shows the fungus damage. Last year, I would've been (was) freaking out about the spots that I killed off and whether they'd come back. You all talked me in to being patient and you were right - they grew right back in. Much more confident about it this go around.


----------



## aug0211

One last note - my late fall seeding in the back drainage area was successful. I will need some spreading but am pretty confident that there is enough of a "base" that it will hold and spread.


----------



## aug0211

Oh, another thing, I'm starting to really wonder about my blade sharpness or RPMs. I don't like the look of the tips of grass blades. I just sharpened last mow and still wasn't happy  Maybe the mower can't handle the lower cut and needs to come up a bit.


----------



## Chris LI

Do My Own has earned several $$$ from me, because I'm staying away from stores as much as possible. They might be worth looking into.


----------



## aug0211

Chris LI said:


> Do My Own has earned several $$$ from me, because I'm staying away from stores as much as possible. They might be worth looking into.


I do like DMO and use them for my pre-m always. What I'm struggling with now is my usual supply of milo and urea. Will just have to adapt!


----------



## aug0211

I raked up some of the fungus spots today - exhausted but got a bit out. Still not 100% by any means.

I mowed low again but without the lawn striper engaged. I'm thinking it was maybe just so matted down from my stripe burn in last year that it didn't get adequate airflow. The fungus is literally in strips that match the mowing pattern perfectly.

I was planning to not aerate this spring to avoid bringing up weed seed... though now it's in the back of my mind to help break through the thatch from the dead grass and help the new stuff grow in.

If I were to aerate, could I follow with pre-m immediately after or would it be too much pre-m? I did a full dose this last round.


----------



## aug0211

Part of why I think I am always battling mold so much. I see this probably 1-2x/week during the spring.


----------



## g-man

It looks like something is blocking the flow to the left. Which way is the water supposed to flow?


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> It looks like something is blocking the flow to the left. Which way is the water supposed to flow?


It does look that way, it's actually flowing freely (to the right).

I think it's an optical effect created by the straight mow line between the neighbors longer grass and mine. We don't see it as much on the right side of the photo because it gets so much softer over there that the mow lines (both mine and neighbors') are not clear cut.

Since my grass is cut lower, we see a lot more water. Unfortunately for my neighbors, they also have about as much water as I do, their longer grass just hides some of it.

I'm just really hoping those brown stripes are definitely remnants from last year's fungus damage and not a bigger (current) problem.


----------



## aug0211

Going to need to raise my mower height and continue with an aggressive anti fungal.

Here is a closeup of (1) fungus - ideas on what this is so I can be sure I apply an appropriate anti fungal? - and (2) the butchering my grass blades are taking. I think the rotary just can't handle the low cut and the grass is being torn up without a clean cut, no matter how sharp I get the mower blades.

I've been putting down Scott's anti fungus granules at the curative rate because it is what I could easily get delivered - but not seeing great improvement and I want to be sure I have an appropriate product.

Any idea what fungus I'm dealing with here? Also, agree that I need to raise my mow height?


----------



## aug0211

Thinking maybe that is leaf spot/melting out.

Second round of antifungal went down a week ago along with a bit of fert - I hadn't fed anything this spring.

Not sure if the antifungal did much (hopefully prevent spread), but the fert helped new healthy grass grow in.

I'm assuming I will lose the leaf spot grass - hoping I don't lose my root layer to melting out. This new growth after the fert looks healthy so far.

Bag of Heritage G coming in so that will go down next weekend.

Raised mowing height up a good bit as well to reduce stress (though I assume airflow isn't quite as good as super low).

Note - the brown circles to the left are where I killed rogue fescue a month or so back.

Lastly, I don't have my stripes because I put my roller up once I noticed the fungus, trying to encourage as much airflow as possible.


----------



## psider25

@aug0211 any luck figuring what to do with the fungal issues this year?


----------



## aug0211

Looking much, much better. That fert helped a ton.

Heritage will go down tomorrow. Hoping it helps prevent any additional fungus popping up and stops and spread from the old grass to the healthy stuff that came in with the fert.

I'll try to get some photos - but I'm blown away with how quickly/healthily it came back after that fert boost.


----------



## Vtx531

Extra fertilizer and consistent mowing - key to get rid of the fungus.

Studies have shown that aerating will not break a preemergent barrier. Maybe avoid aerating now - Probably not a good time to add additional stress to the lawn while it is battling the fungus.

I had the same problem with the grass not cutting well. I was mowing with my rotary at 1.5" this year which is low for me but it was too thick/dense and the mower couldn't handle it. The tips were ragged and not good. I raised back up to 3" and everything is good again. Those ragged tips are an easy way for fungus pathogens to enter the grass. Combine that with short height that is more susceptible to fungus and there can be a problem,


----------



## aug0211

Vtx531 said:


> Extra fertilizer and consistent mowing - key to get rid of the fungus.
> 
> Studies have shown that aerating will not break a preemergent barrier. Maybe avoid aerating now - Probably not a good time to add additional stress to the lawn while it is battling the fungus.
> 
> I had the same problem with the grass not cutting well. I was mowing with my rotary at 1.5" this year which is low for me but it was too thick/dense and the mower couldn't handle it. The tips were ragged and not good. I raised back up to 3" and everything is good again. Those ragged tips are an easy way for fungus pathogens to enter the grass. Combine that with short height that is more susceptible to fungus and there can be a problem,


I think you nailed it. Holding off on aeration - maybe Fall.

I forgot to confirm that I did also raise my height - and cut looks much cleaner. I miss my low grass but the blades definitely look healthier.


----------



## aug0211

Doing pretty well these days.


----------



## aug0211

Keeping things tall lately but still fighting off the fungus  Going back and forth between fungus and the turf being thirsty.

I also did not get my hands on milo this year due to COVID so did not follow the same regime as last year, and I am paying for it for sure now. Everything is out of whack.

Hoping that consistently keeping things taller for this season and working through the fungus with fungicides will help. Don't want to fertilize too much right now in this heat.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

I just wanted to let you know that I think those June pics look great! Personally, I like the longer grass look.

After some fungus problems each of the past couple years, I've become more proactive this year, with a multi-pronged approach to trying to prevent fungus damage: less fertilizer in the summer than I usually apply, preventative applications of Serenade, a preventative rotation of fungicides including azoxystrobin and propiconazole, reduced watering, and occasional application of contact fungicides when conditions are at their worst for potential disease. So far, it's working. However, in past years, I've had some of my worst fungus problems starting in mid- to late August, so I'm not counting it as a victory yet...

Really, I think your June pics look great!


----------



## aug0211

Thanks so much! As you remember, you were an inspiration for my project so that means a lot and is really encouraging!

Though now I'm nervous about what to expect in August &#128514;


----------



## aug0211

Melting out hit hard. I've got entire sections that I'm afraid I've lost altogether.

Not sure whether to try to push through with spoon feeding urea or to just start again in those sections with new seed&#128542;

It's pretty rough out there!

•30% of the lawn is fine
•50% of the lawn is moderately impacted
•20% is almost completely melted out with just a few pokes of "healthy" grass hanging on

I am keeping up with fungicides every 2 weeks.

Not sure whether to try to recover and push through with urea or plant new - won't either require significant watering and risk the fungus getting worse?

&#129335;‍♂


----------



## ken-n-nancy

aug0211 said:


> Melting out hit hard. I've got entire sections that I'm afraid I've lost altogether.
> 
> Not sure whether to try to push through with spoon feeding urea or to just start again in those sections with new seed😞


Sorry to hear about the melting out troubles. I've had issues with melting out in our Bewitched monostand, too. I've always found that the Bewitched has come back in the next spring, although encouraging the growth in spring through fertilization, without pushing it so hard to set one's self up for grass that is too lush and thick going into the following July (and thus having more melting out troubles) has been a balancing act.

This year is the first year that I feel that we've stayed ahead of the melting out issues, through a combination of a lower cut height than my normal 3.75" in the summer, frequent Serenade applications, axoxystrobin about every 5 weeks (June, July, and August), interspersed with mancozeb a couple times so far. This year, it has worked -- I've seen some signs of leaf spot (because I've been looking closely) but haven't had widespread melting out as has been an issue in most years.

I'm sure the drier summer this year has also helped me a lot.

In any case, I think you'll be surprised at how well the Bewitched bounces back if the areas aren't too heavily shaded.


----------



## aug0211

Thank you KNN! Always appreciate your feedback and tips.

Based on the below... think we'll be able to see recovery?

The front yard is the worst - I can get more closeups in better light tomorrow if helpful. That section by the driveway is truly 95% lost


----------



## aug0211




----------



## aug0211

Some photos of the roughest spot, out front. Roughly 10'x20' rectangle. I have a couple areas similar to this but not quite as bad.

Continue to treat with fungicide and spoon feed urea hoping it fills back in?

Or is this a total loss and I need to continue to treat the soil with fungicide and re-seed the area?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Not trying to be a "Debbie Downer" but the bad spots do look pretty bad. However, it looks like there's still generally life in there. I'd suggest mowing it shorter in that area, bagging the clippings, continuing to treat with fungicide, and seeing if there is any recovery this fall. Without first getting the disease under control, any new seeding into that area is going to have a tough time while the disease is still present. I'd also suggest using some sort of contact fungicide (rather than just a systemic, which protects the grass, but doesn't kill fungus that isn't on living grass tissue) which is listed as effective against leaf spot / melting out.

The areas I had with the disease were shady areas, so the grass was much thinner to start with, and the density of living grass remaining was even less than appears in your photo.

I feel for you on this, though -- looks like great density and lushness, apart from the disease...


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## g-man

Is your irrigation good/even? What fungicide are you using?

The trees in the back look water stressed.


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## aug0211

Thanks guys. I agree it's not good &#128542;

Irrigation is even - coverage is solid. Those trees in the back are off property in HOA owned space which is not cared for so they do not get water.

In terms of fungicides I have been using:
•Azoxystrobin
•Propiconazole

I'm eager to do *something* but I am thinking perhaps just continue being patient with fungicides and start spoon feeding urea?

Eager to break up the thatch from all the dead stuff and to open it up for air - but would aerating be bad because of (1) stressing the tiny bit of grass that is alive and (2) spreading the spores further into the root zones?

Thanks for the help.


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## Vtx531

I would avoid aerating or anything. Doing less is more - a lot of times we make things worse by trying to do something. Now if I could just heed that advice myself instead of continually messing things up by overdoing things that don't need to be done!


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## aug0211

Vtx531 said:


> I would avoid aerating or anything. Doing less is more - a lot of times we make things worse by trying to do something. Now if I could just heed that advice myself instead of continually messing things up by overdoing things that don't need to be done!


Exactly my suspicion 😂 Thanks for confirming. I will not aerate.

OK to continue with fungicides and start spoon feeding urea, or hold off there too?


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## aug0211

Chugging along and hanging in.

Applying urea at 0.5#/K for the past two weeks.

I think most will survive and fill back in.

The biggest problem area will need some plugs I suspect (maybe tackle that next weekend).


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## aug0211

Some photos to log where things are currently.

Slow progress in the right direction. Bare spots starting to fill in, though definitely a ways to go.

Urea is helping The entire lawn, both damaged areas and areas that were healthy.

Time for another antifungal treatment.

Photos will not post in the right order so I'll have to remember that the problem spots are by the driveway and the close ups are the problem spots.


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## ABC123

Hows the recovery looking?


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## aug0211

ABC123 said:


> Hows the recovery looking?


Not too shabby! Not back to 100% by any means - still a ways to go with filling in, but the "top" section of the bad area out front has made great progress. The "bottom" section of it is coming along but more slowly.

Recent photos attached below.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to wake up and have it magically 100% - but it's also rewarding to watch the KBG spread and fill back in over time. This stuff is so cool.


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## aug0211

Thought I'd officially close up shop on this one.

We sold the lawn ("home" as others would say) back in October.

Building a new home, should be ready in ~November. Hoping the outside and grading is far enough along in August to allow me to get started on starting over from scratch.

More to come in what will be a new thread.

Grateful for all the learnings I got on the first reno (this thread) and the awesome help and input everyone has given me so far. Excited to apply it all to the next "from seed fresh start".


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## Budstl

Are you going with bewitched at your new place?


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## aug0211

Budstl said:


> Are you going with bewitched at your new place?


Great question. I will definitely research again - it's been a few years since I chose Bewitched and I'll want to see what all the latest info says.

The self healing aspects of KBG are amazing. Hard to think about giving that up.

Will have to look into disease resistance and shade tolerance. One side of the new home will not get much sun at all.

I also fought fungus so much with the BW - could've been from mowing low with a rotary, not understanding the importance of preventative fungicide regime - just general first timer stuff. IIRC, KBG BW was actually rated relatively well for shade tolerance and disease resistance.

In short - I really liked KBG BW. It's been a few years and I like researching so I'll be digging back in to see if it's still the best option based on our new build setup/shade/personal goals for the lawn.


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## aug0211

Budstl said:


> Are you going with bewitched at your new place?


Well, the time has come. Work started on the next project.

Project link with photos (from the very beginning) located here:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=1432&sid=e7ea9113905458d4956d1815191e465f

Need to figure out the answer to @Budstl's question - which seed to go with? Not sure I want a monostand again, that fungus was just too much. I now have a bit more space and a bit less time, so probably need a blend to be safer.

Thread to help me pick what to go with located here:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=38769


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