# Messed up my newly seeded TTTF lawn, advice?



## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Hi all,

*Background*: I decided to do a complete lawn renovation this fall by myself after watching a bunch of stuff on YouTube and reading as much as I could. I live in NC and have a half shade, half sun lawn, so I purchased some shade blend and sun blend of TTTF from SuperSeedStore.

I killed everything off, tilled down, added lime, and then 6 yards of 75% compost 25% sand blend from a local supplier, put the seed and starter fertilizer down, spread peat moss over everything and began watering. It came up beautifully and neighbors have been commenting every time they drive by.

*The problem begins with the first mow*: I had read that I should let TTTF grow to at least ~4" for the first mow, and then take off about a third. For the half of my lawn that I did this with, it was a disaster. Two issues happened - one, my clippings didn't get bagged (the shoot was locked before I realized, and this area is a long strip so I wasn't expecting a lot of added weight), and the grass essentially flopped over.

The yard looked like I took a comb to it. I have tried *everything* to get the grass to stand back up, I tried by hand (but couldn't reach everything), doing gentle leaf blowing - (to get clippings off), but it just pushed them the other way. I guess the roots aren't strong enough to support it staying upright after getting pushed over. I fixed the bag issue and re-mowed lower, but a lot of the grass had already begun rotting. I put down some DiseaseEx because I noticed some fungal issues starting in a few areas, and so a big part of the lawn is already dying off.

*So my question:* Is it too late in NC (7b) to just rake up all of the dead stuff to expose the soil, put more seed down and re-do this process? What do I do about watering for the new seedlings vs what's already been growing for a month? Should I mow it early? Only about half of the area looks bad, but it's patchy - so I still have some salvagable areas interspersed.

What do you all do with your first mows? The other half of my yard looks ok, but I'm constantly worried about pushing over those blades and them not coming back up, and turning, etc is not easy on my lawn due to the slope. I currently have the HOC at 2.5 (notch "C") on my Toro Super Recycler (21386). Attaching some pics of the reno as well.

Any other advice moving forward is definitely appreciated!

I was too frustrated to take any pics of the issue, but it's basically what happened here: https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=19972


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

uncken said:


> *The problem begins with the first mow*: I had read that I should let TTTF grow to at least ~4" for the first mow, and then take off about a third. For the half of my lawn that I did this with, it was a disaster. Two issues happened - one, my clippings didn't get bagged (the shoot was locked before I realized, and this area is a long strip so I wasn't expecting a lot of added weight), and the grass essentially flopped over.


This was bad information. New grass, including TTTF should be cut when it gets just over 2" and cut back to 2". This should continue for 3-4 mows before adjusting to your normal height of cut. See this  article - bottom of page 2 and onto page 3.

Go ahead and drop more seed. Water it the same as you did before when you seeded. Try to cut the existing grass as low as possible to give the new seedlings a chance. Let the ground dry out before mowing.

Do not drop anymore fertilizer at the time of seeding.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Harts said:


> uncken said:
> 
> 
> > *The problem begins with the first mow*: I had read that I should let TTTF grow to at least ~4" for the first mow, and then take off about a third. For the half of my lawn that I did this with, it was a disaster. Two issues happened - one, my clippings didn't get bagged (the shoot was locked before I realized, and this area is a long strip so I wasn't expecting a lot of added weight), and the grass essentially flopped over.
> ...


As soon as I realized what happened I mowed the other side to 2.25" and it looks ok, but it still seems a bit lanky and there are some areas that aren't standing back up where the mower wheels went over.. so I've been gently leaf blowing it to move it around so moisture doesn't get trapped..

So it looks like my Toro has 2.25" and 1.75 as HOC options on the mower ( https://www.toro.com/getpub/173988 ), would it be better to cut it a quarter inch too short or let it grow higher and cut back to 2.25"?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

If it were my lawn, I'd cut it to 1.75". But either of those heights will be fine. A quarter inch one way or the other isn't going to make a difference.

What rate did you seed?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Harts said:


> If it were my lawn, I'd cut it to 1.75". But either of those heights will be fine. A quarter inch one way or the other isn't going to make a difference.
> 
> What rate did you seed?


I seeded at 8 lbs / 1000 sq ft, which I think is on the high end of what I had seen.

So I went back and dropped some seed on the part that got destroyed, covered it in a light layer of dirt and peat moss and watered it in. This is what it looks like now:



Here's some close-ups of the areas where you can see what I'm guessing is "rot" ? Basically the grass just died out and turned brown and wispy.. this is after I have raked out dead stuff and put more seed down, etc:





I have one section of the yard that's the most shaded which I just mowed down to 1.75" - but it's flopping over hardcore still:





Am I doing something wrong? Any suggestions? I want to put more seed down here obviously since so much of the other part of it died back from the same issue the area in the front did, but I don't want to mess up what's already there as it's maturing...


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

Two thoughts..... how much starter fert did you apply, what are its numbers, and when? The third number (K) helps young grass. Maybe you don't have enough. The fact it came in good and kind of petered out makes me think it may need more "food". Read the lawn reno guide, iirc they talk about "spoon feeding" lower levels (eg. .5lb N) more often (every week or two).

Have you ever done a soil test? Could be a low nutrient.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

kevreh said:


> Two thoughts..... how much starter fert did you apply, what are its numbers, and when? The third number (K) helps young grass. Maybe you don't have enough. The fact it came in good and kind of petered out makes me think it may need more "food". Read the lawn reno guide, iirc they talk about "spoon feeding" lower levels (eg. .5lb N) more often (every week or two).
> 
> Have you ever done a soil test? Could be a low nutrient.


How does K help young grass?


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## kevreh (Apr 3, 2018)

Might have been thinking of P;

"P for Phosphorus, stimulates roots and new plant development. Phosphorus is important to the root system and will help thicken up your yard. Phosphorus will stay in your soil for at least a year.

K for Potassium, promotes disease and drought tolerance. Potassium prepares your lawn for the heat of the summer as well. Potassium stays in the soil for several months."


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

kevreh said:


> Two thoughts..... how much starter fert did you apply, what are its numbers, and when? The third number (K) helps young grass. Maybe you don't have enough. The fact it came in good and kind of petered out makes me think it may need more "food". Read the lawn reno guide, iirc they talk about "spoon feeding" lower levels (eg. .5lb N) more often (every week or two).
> 
> Have you ever done a soil test? Could be a low nutrient.


I applied 3.2 lbs / 1000 sq ft of the starter fertilizer I got from a local shop which was 18-24-6. I had read somewhere that it's not a bad idea to add a little bit more about 2 weeks after germination, so I did a half application and watered that in before my first mow.

I haven't had a soil test, just ran out of time this year to get it to our extension office. I know from talking to a neighbor that our soil tends to be very clay and his yard reno needed some lime, so I did some of that prior to putting down the 6 yards of 75% compost/25% sand mix I got


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

I did a mow (*HOC: 1.75"*) on the side of the yard that hasn't had really too many issues yet yesterday - but this is what's happening after each mow:









I went back out with the leaf blower after the mow to get it to stand back up - we got some rain yesterday and I went back out after the rain dried to leaf blow again to separate the blades and try to get it to stand back up.

For anyone who's had this happen, do you have to keep doing this until the grass matures? If so, how long? Anyone have any suggestions on what other steps I can take?


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## cleohioturf (Jul 20, 2020)

Dont mean to be rude, but are the mower blades on correctly?

Almost looks like the blade is on upside down and beating the grass down with the dull side.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

cleohioturf said:


> Dont mean to be rude, but are the mower blades on correctly?
> 
> Almost looks like the blade is on upside down and beating the grass down with the dull side.


I think this is a good call out. Chances are, the blades are on correctly, but something is off. That grass does not look like it's 1.75".


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

cleohioturf said:


> Dont mean to be rude, but are the mower blades on correctly?
> 
> Almost looks like the blade is on upside down and beating the grass down with the dull side.


Haha well I mean I'm open to any possible issues, so I don't think it's rude!

It's actually a brand new mower off the show room floor (this is my first time owning a lawn mower, so), I wasn't told I needed to do anything with it. I just called the dealer to ask if I needed to adjust the blades or anything - he told me Toro sends them attached and ready to go, unless you want to adjust the blade height (which I haven't done or messed with).

I do have clippings and stuff in the bag after I run through it, but wherever the wheels are pushes it down, so I have been sort of running back over where the wheels were to get that part to stand up / get cut.


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## cleohioturf (Jul 20, 2020)

seems unlikely but I would flip it, check against manual or post pic.

normally a rotary mower has a bit of suction to stand the grass up and cut it, it should not be flattening the grass like your pics. To me it doesnt look overly handed on seeding, and over watering alone doesnt sound right. If you are mulching, does the super recycler have a side discharge, that should provide more suction than mulching.

in your pics you can see what appears to be the tips of the blades for a bunch of the grass, its not cutting them and they are longer than 1.75"


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

cleohioturf said:


> seems unlikely but I would flip it, check against manual or post pic.
> 
> normally a rotary mower has a bit of suction to stand the grass up and cut it, it should not be flattening the grass like your pics. To me it doesnt look overly handed on seeding, and over watering alone doesnt sound right. If you are mulching, does the super recycler have a side discharge, that should provide more suction than mulching.
> 
> in your pics you can see what appears to be the tips of the blades for a bunch of the grass, its not cutting them and they are longer than 1.75"


Alright, so since I realized I don't exactly know for sure what it should look like, I took it to Town & Country today. The blade was on right, and I got it sharpened (even though it was new, they said sometimes factory sharp isn't sharp enough for new grass blades?). Here's some pics:







I also went out and measured the grass, it is definitely higher in some areas (though it's been ~2 days since I mowed), it does look like some of the grass blades just have bends in them rather than clean cuts, the grass is definitely being trimmed in some areas.





The Super Recycler does have a side discharge, but won't that just result in clippings being left on the lawn? I thought it would make more sense to not add more weight/etc by leaving the clippings at this point?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Always shapen new blades. They are never that sharp.

Do yourself a favour and get an angle grinder and a 60 grit flap disk. Probably cost you $50 total. You can sharpen them anytime you want.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Harts said:


> Always shapen new blades. They are never that sharp.
> 
> Do yourself a favour and get an angle grinder and a 60 grit flap disk. Probably cost you $50 total. You can sharpen them anytime you want.


That sounds like a good idea! I lucked out today that they were able to sharpen it, they said sometimes you have to drop off the mower for a week until they can get to it.. yikes. Better idea to hvae my own for sure

*Another question*: How should I approach the areas where I put more seed down? Both in terms of watering and mowing? I'm just lightly watering right now until I see the little seedlings, but I know that's not doing the roots of the surviving grass any favors. As for mowing, the surviving grass is probably around ~2.5" ( can see some of those areas in the pics below) - I'd expect it to be a lot taller by the time the seedlings are over 2" - I'm worried about damage if I run the mower over it too early?

I'm also still not sure if the grass just rotted from moisture or if there's some sort of real fungal/bug issue going on.. Does this look like anything familiar? I put down an application of DiseaseEx at the curative rate just to be safe.


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## cleohioturf (Jul 20, 2020)

good deal on blade, the sharpening will help, if thats all the grind they put on it I wouldnt doubt you had a dull blade.

some of the new growth playbook is case by case. If you have more good grass that needs a cut, compared to spots that need help, I would favor cutting over worrying about the spots that need seeding. I would be cutting personally.

Take care of the 80% and then worry about fixing the 20% once you are up and running.


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## deljaso (Oct 7, 2018)

How much shade do the areas get that are laying over?
The pics you have look like the areas are under tree cover.

That looks like TTTF when I seed it in the heavier shaded areas of my lawn. The north side of my house always sprouts thick, and then thins out as the fall progresses and the shade gets heavier. I just have to deal with a thinner lawn on that side of my house through the summer. It gets better than the pictures, but it stays a bit thin. The good news is that weeds don't invade too strongly, because of the shade. 
Every time I overseed/rennovate, I get excited because it comes in so thick over there, then it does what your grass is doing.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

cleohioturf said:


> good deal on blade, the sharpening will help, if thats all the grind they put on it I wouldnt doubt you had a dull blade.
> 
> some of the new growth playbook is case by case. If you have more good grass that needs a cut, compared to spots that need help, I would favor cutting over worrying about the spots that need seeding. I would be cutting personally.
> 
> Take care of the 80% and then worry about fixing the 20% once you are up and running.


I would say honestly looking up close it's about half and half (pictures attached below). It looks a bit more full than it really is when looking up close.. so I'm not sure if I should try to get a mow in too soon and risk damaging the new seedlings, or end up with a similar issue with the rest of what's alive if I let it grow too long?

Maybe if I mow a bit later than ideal, since I know now about the fungus / leaf blowing, I can salvage more than was before? I also feel like because of the amount of watering I'm having to do with the new seeds in the ground it's never really going to be 'dry' like you'd want for a mow?



deljaso said:


> How much shade do the areas get that are laying over?
> The pics you have look like the areas are under tree cover.
> 
> That looks like TTTF when I seed it in the heavier shaded areas of my lawn. The north side of my house always sprouts thick, and then thins out as the fall progresses and the shade gets heavier. I just have to deal with a thinner lawn on that side of my house through the summer. It gets better than the pictures, but it stays a bit thin. The good news is that weeds don't invade too strongly, because of the shade.
> Every time I overseed/rennovate, I get excited because it comes in so thick over there, then it does what your grass is doing.


Honestly, they get a pretty decent amount of sun. My street runs approximately East to West, so it gets morning sun, a bit less in the early afternoon due to all of the tall trees (when the pics below were taken), and then quite a bit in the afternoon. I'd say further away from the mailbox (my POV in the first two pics) is sunnier, with the other areas getting a bit more shade. The last pic is the shadiest area (which is where I put the TTTF shade blend from SuperSeedStore down), and it's greenier than the other areas.

Looking a bit more closely, it looks like that's actually the exact path of one of the lawnmower wheels took - so maybe that grass just didn't get dried out or leaf blown enough?







Most shade:


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

I know I am jumping into this late, and maybe didn't read all the replies, but have we ruled out Pythium?? I know it's late in season but the damage sure looks like it.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Kmartel said:


> I know I am jumping into this late, and maybe didn't read all the replies, but have we ruled out Pythium?? I know it's late in season but the damage sure looks like it.


I haven't ruled it out, but looking at the description of the damage it does seem like it fits. With the added moisture in the yard after the mows and the blades not standing up, we did have a few warmer days (temps in the 80s, nights over 65).. so conditions would have been favorable?

I did put down some DiseaseEx at the curative rate and I got some Propiconazole (which I haven't put down yet - but was planning to with tonight's watering for the areas I overseeded again..), is there anything else I should be doing? I'm still having to do a lot of watering with the new seeds down, but I did read that both of those were safe for new seeds.


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## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

cleohioturf said:


> Dont mean to be rude, but are the mower blades on correctly?
> 
> Almost looks like the blade is on upside down and beating the grass down with the dull side.


My brother in law did this once and I usually mention it to him a few times a year :lol:


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## Kmartel (Feb 12, 2019)

uncken said:


> Kmartel said:
> 
> 
> > I know I am jumping into this late, and maybe didn't read all the replies, but have we ruled out Pythium?? I know it's late in season but the damage sure looks like it.
> ...


When did you put down the disease x? Propiconizole won't do anything for pythium. Disease x , subdue and azoxy for pythium.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Kmartel said:


> uncken said:
> 
> 
> > Kmartel said:
> ...


I put the DiseaseEx down a couple of days before I put down more seed/soil/peat moss. I had read that it was safe to do at seeding/germination, so hopefully that's true!

I went out this morning to look to see if we had any new germination (I don't see any yet - today is day 7, but we've had some pretty cold nights in the upper 40's.. so hoping it's just delayed) and noticed this - I couldn't tell if it's fungus or a spider web? The squirrels keep digging up little areas to look for/bury nuts and this was in there:



I am thinking maybe I should put down another application of DiseaseEx soon?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Finally on day 7-8 there's some germination in the area that got messed up.

I have been watering often obviously for germination, but I'm wondering when exactly it's okay to back off and let it dry out for mowing?

A lot of what remained before is starting to get pretty tall, so I'm wondering when exactly I should mow this since half the lawn is new seedlings, and half the lawn is older. I'm also wondering whether not I should do any application of Nitrogen (something like Simple Lawn Solutions High Nitrogen Lawn Food, 28-0-0) to give the new seedlings a boost in growth so that I can hopefully mow sooner?

The color definitely seems lighter / more yellow, but I don't know how much of that is dead grass from before. Some pics:


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

In addition to the question above about putting some some Nitrogen, does anyone have any idea what's going on here?

Some parts of the new area are turning yellow/brown - does this look like grub damage or a fungus?







You can see the difference in color towards the top half of the yard and what's closer to the street (though the very top does get a bit more shade / hasn't filled in as well):


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Bump in the hopes that someone has some advice!

We've had a bit of rain over the last week and the ground is still pretty damp - no rain yesterday or today, so I'm also debating getting another mow in on the side that still looks okay, but I'm worried about the ground being soft. We're scheduled for ~1" of rain between Thur/Fri, so I'd like to mow and then spoon feed before the rain.


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

The pic you posted asking about fungus vs spiderwebs, is just spiderwebs. 
If you have areas that are getting very tall, mow them. If you can avoid areas that are mostly new seedlings while mowing the more established taller areas, great. But if you can't, the seedlings will likely be ok. Just try to let the ground dry as much as you can and be very careful with your steps and any mower turns. How tall are most of the seedlings?


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Fraust said:


> The pic you posted asking about fungus vs spiderwebs, is just spiderwebs.
> If you have areas that are getting very tall, mow them. If you can avoid areas that are mostly new seedlings while mowing the more established taller areas, great. But if you can't, the seedlings will likely be ok. Just try to let the ground dry as much as you can and be very careful with your steps and any mower turns. How tall are most of the seedlings?


On the half where I put more seed down/had the disaster, they're mostly about 1.5" or so. There's some of the older grass that's left which is over 2" now (I raked up as much of the dead stuff as I could gently and mowed it all down to 1.5" before tossing new seed), so it's getting up there. Should I put some Nitrogen on it now or wait until after the first mow?

The area that still looks ok (but is turning yellow/dying in some spots in my most recent picture) ranges from around 2.25-3". We got just a ton of rain and the high is only 70" today so I don't think it's going to dry out much more than it has already since it's already 3pm.. I have maybe an hour or so before it starts cooling off again for the day, I think.


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## Fraust (Apr 4, 2021)

I'd wait until after your mow for any nitrogen. And if you can wait a little bit longer today or even into tomorrow to let it dry up a little bit more, go ahead and do that. But I know you mentioned also being forecasted more rain tomorrow, so if it's now or never go ahead and do it now and just be as careful as you can with all your movements. And if you really haven't had rain or irrigated in 2 days, it may still seem a little damp but unless you have terrible drainage issues, it's likely fine to mow now.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Fraust said:


> I'd wait until after your mow for any nitrogen. And if you can wait a little bit longer today or even into tomorrow to let it dry up a little bit more, go ahead and do that. But I know you mentioned also being forecasted more rain tomorrow, so if it's now or never go ahead and do it now and just be as careful as you can with all your movements. And if you really haven't had rain or irrigated in 2 days, it may still seem a little damp but unless you have terrible drainage issues, it's likely fine to mow now.


I took your advice - waited until later in the day and mowed, then I applied the Simple Lawn Solutions 28-0-0, let it sit overnight and then watered it in lightly about 4 hours before the rain (we got ~.75" yesterday). Luckily the ground was not as much of an issue as I thought.

I do seem to have this issue with some spots of the yard yellowing/dying off though - does anyone know what's going on here? I put some 24 hour Grub Killer and more DiseaseEx down after the mow - but it seems like if I don't fix this I'm going to wind up with a bunch of patchy areas...

Pics:


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## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Harts said:


> That grass does not look like it's 1.75".


That grass also does not look like TTTF. It looks more like fine fescue. If it's TTTF and the blades are that thin and lanky, something is wrong.


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## thin_concrete (Sep 11, 2020)

Deadlawn said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> > That grass does not look like it's 1.75".
> ...


Agreed. Those blades don't look like TTTF at all. The white spots around some of the dead areas are indicative of a fungus. If you've put Disease-EX down already and aren't seeing any improvement, then you should consider buying a few concentrates and mixing them up yourself. Propi, Azoxy, and Clearys should all be in rotation. I had a pythium issue and have added Mefenoxam to my toolkit.

Here's a link that may be worth a read:

https://getlawnstar.com/blog/lawn-fungus-identification-guide/


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

Hmm, all of the seed I got was from SuperSeedStore - probably 75% is their sun blend - SS1000 (advertised as Avenger II, 4th Millennium, Raptor III, Amity) and 25% their shade blend SS1002 (listed as Valkyrie LS, Titanum 2LS, and GTO). I just looked at the bags again and the tag matches what they advertised.. has there ever been a mixup with their stuff before? What can I do to verify what's down to distinguish between Tall/Fine?

Looking at the yard again today, I did some leaf blowing and the side of the yard that has been doing really well is starting to look even worse. I will spray Propi after Halloween and see if that helps since the DiseaseEx has not seemed to work.

Are there any other kinds of pictures that would be useful? I can rip out some of the grass and take some close-ups?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I just read your entire thread. There are a couplw of thing that concern me.

1) how much lime, what type and per what lab recommendation? Adding lime during seeding is not ideal since it is messing with the soil pH right when roots need to establish.

2) do apply nitrogen, but go with granular and fast type. If you need P, then something marketed as starter should work. Frequent light applications is the best.

3) open the side discharge of the mower. This increases airflow and will get you more suction and lift. Don't worry about clippings.

4) you should be able to reduce the irrigation at this point. It should help with fungus. Try to an early irrigation and maybe noon. Avoid evenings/night. It should not need more than 0.1in of water per day even in NC.

Lastly, read the renovation guide and is linked in the cool season guide. It has more details around how to establish a new lawn. You are in NC, so depending on temps/region, you still have time.


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## uncken (Oct 14, 2021)

g-man said:


> I just read your entire thread. There are a couplw of thing that concern me.
> 
> 1) how much lime, what type and per what lab recommendation? Adding lime during seeding is not ideal since it is messing with the soil pH right when roots need to establish.
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to read, I appreciate it!

1) I put down the "maintenance rate" of 5lb/1k sqft of "Enhanced Calcium Nutrient Booster" ( http://www.nassausuffolkturf.com/docs/label/grandularfertilizer/EnhancedCalciticLime.pdf ) based on the recommendation of a neighbor and the local ag store. We have really red clay soil, so when I tilled, I dropped that in there. I put the new soil/compost mix on top of that - did not apply more to that layer.

2) Do you have a recommended brand/product? I bought some concentrated Urea, but it seems difficult to get "even" coverage even with a Scott's Whiz spreader. I had thought about dissolving it and spraying, but

3) Changed to doing this today - decided to do a mow even thought there's not a lot to trim. I still have the mower set at 1.75 - should I start letting it grow taller? The next setting is 2.25" on my mower.. It just stays so mashed down if I don't leaf blow I've been worried about it getting any longer..

4) I've reduced irrigation and I'm trying to get more deep watering in. I'm trying to stay at 1"/week only watering twice a week. Now that it's cooled off significantly I'm trying to get all of my watering in before 2pm, but haven't always done that.

Tonight I sprayed Propi (2oz/1k sqft), so hopefully that'll rectify any lingering fungus issues that DiseaseEx hasn't been able to handle. It seems like there are lots of areas of my grass that are turning almost a "gray" color - the blades are wilting.. just not sure what's going on.. very frustrating.

Some pics of the bad areas:


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