# PAM tackifiers



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I ordered some PAM to use in a steep slope I have in my reno after a washout. My initial application was not the greatest experience. I've been researching how to use this. This thread is to document what I found. It seems to be better than m-binder and by far cheaper.

This article from Australia has a ton of info. They explain both methods (dry to soil or disolve in water). There is a section that I will try dry method soon



> An application strategy popular with American farmers is the "patch" application method.


https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFiles/20540000/research/pam/oz/ozpamusa.htm

Buy it:
https://www.domyown.com/profile-flocloc-p-9598.html

edits to add more links:
http://waterquality.montana.edu/farm-ranch/irrigation/pam/facts.html
https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/using-polyacrylamide-pam-to-reduce-erosion-on-construction-sites


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm getting ready to use it this weekend and was hoping to spray it from a pump sprayer. I'm thinking of dissolving it in hot water and applying with 2x or more water than I normally use for spraying. So, 1 gal/M. Then watering it in after to help it get into the peat moss cover. I'll be using it at 1.1oz/M. I'm doing a reno. I'll share my experiences. Hopefully it works...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

After all the reading last night and the forecast heavy rains for me this weekend, my plan is:

- sprinkle 5g/250sqft into the soil. Dry applications dont seem to be that effective (from what I read).
- I will then try one each one of these in different zones:
* mix 5-10g with 4 gallons of water. Mix with the drill for minutes (I read this is really important). Apply it with the backpack sprayer.
*mix 5g with 32oz of water and apply it with an hose end sprayer at the highest oz setting I can over 250sqft.

From what I read it helps with nutrient retention, increases in infiltration thru flocculation, so it seems to be a good solution.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

So after 93F I got home to check on things. My plan was to blow off the clippings prior to doing any work, but mother nature had other plans. We had a pop up shower that got everything wet.

There was another cell further away in my path, so I changed plans.

I applyed 5g/250sqft. It is a tiny amount. A plastic spoon =5g. I spread it by hand to the wet soil. I then watered it. It did not look like anything.




I had the 4 gallon sprayer still with the mixture from a week ago. This was probably 15g in 4 gallons. I poured it into a 5 gallon bucket to get rid of it, but I noticed it was not all clumped. Since the storm was approaching, I called an audible and dumped 1/3gallon into the top of the slope for it to follow down. It worked great. The liquid had the consistency of warm maple syrup over pancakes and the stickiness kept it together instead forming legs.



I used all of those for gallons and decided to make more. I mixed 10g into water in the bucket and used the jet of the water nozzle to create some turbulence while filling to 5gallons. I then stir and wait while the lighting stopped. I wished I had more time to let it sit. But I ended up applying to most sections. 


Will it work? I hope so. I think it might be worth to try 5g into 5gallons. I also think that 5g into 32oz of water to then feed with an end of hose sprayer should work. I don't think a backpack sprayer will work.

The second cell missed me.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I had a downpour. 0.5in of rain in 30min. I was at work and then driving home so I was not able to see it all happen from the video camera. It flooded the backyard again!

Good news, no washout. There was some minor erosion and some of the clippings got washed away overall it looks good and the germinated seeds are standing up.



I forgot to mention this before. As a test I dropped a spoonful of dry powder in the corner of the driveway. I first disturb the soil to see what would happen. I did not watered it. This is how it looks.



It was a heavy amount just to test. More rain in the next days, so let's keep hoping for no more heavy downpours.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Looking good!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

It been raining since this morning. It slowed down, but now it picked up. It is supposed to continue until Sunday pm.

The seeding are still holding and look to be upright. The side yard that's it is 40degrees still looks good without soil erosion. You could notice a shine to the soil, that's the tackifier. I will continue to take pictures and update.


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## JohnP (Oct 24, 2017)

Wow, lot of water to deal with in a reno. Also, nice to see the signature idea spreading... @Suburban Jungle Life


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

JohnP said:


> Wow, lot of water to deal with in a reno. Also, nice to see the signature idea spreading... @Suburban Jungle Life


 :thumbsup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@JohnP the signature idea was really good.

So, we had a downpour at 1am that woke me up. I was just able to see the damage. The good news, the roots of the young grass held them in place. But there was erosion. Horrible? No.

My first downpour had a rate of 0.75in/hr per PWS. Last night was 0.5in/hr. We had 1.5in yesterday and another 1.5 since 1am. I have more rain heading my way.

It is hard to have an objective evaluation of the PAM since I don't have a good way to compare. I can see some of the clay soil and rocks from the erosion, but did the Pam made a difference or just the rate or the roots?

8am pictures:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I applied 30g in dry powder over the area at around 11am before heading out for errands. I came back at 3pm and applied 120g. The strong rain is approaching. I will apply another 120g before it gets too dark.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> JohnP said:
> 
> 
> > Wow, lot of water to deal with in a reno. Also, nice to see the signature idea spreading... @Suburban Jungle Life
> ...


What is the signature idea? Using a hose end sprayer to apply PAM?

@g-man, how is the dry application working compared to the wet applications and no application at all?

Good idea to use a shower curtain on the slope. That was my first suggestion when I heard about your washout woes and I would anticipate superior results compared to tackifier. Hope this advice works out for you. :thumbup:


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Mozart this was not a DOE that I could compare dry vs wet vs none. This was a case study or Hail Mary to save my Reno. The curtain shower did not help, since the 25mph wind gust blew it from the rocks holding it; plus water was running underneath it.

The rain ended. We had 2.8.in yesterday, 0.5 in last night. A total of 4.8in since Friday. The high precipitation rate missed me last night by 20miles, so that helped.

My thoughts:

I had an extreme case of high rain. All the rain was a constant flow of water. I don't think anything would have made this perfect. There was erosion, but I think it could be worst without the Pam. The roots in the grass were enough.

Next phase:
Let see if it dries. The sticky Pam that is now on the ground is also going to hold on to the leaves and prevent them from standing up. I think once it dries, then it will be ok.









This is how the PAM looks like. It forms into a gel like substance. You could see how i applied it to the top of the second image. MY application was not ideal since there was 25mph wind gust too.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

That's too bad, did you nail down the curtain or put something heavy on it?

In the last picture above, the wet looking stuff is PAM goo or just a puddle?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Mozart, yes I had rocks holding it, but the 25mph wind gust did not help. The goo stuff is the PAM. I updated the post to explain it better.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I finally tried the PAM! So, I added 10g to about 1/3 gal of hot water. I dumped it in and instantly it became a glob. I tried to break up the glob with my hands and it didn't work out too well. I ended up with many small globs instead. I was hoping the hot water would dissolve the PAM but it didn't seem to have much effect. I then dumped the mess into a bucket and added water until I had about 3 gal. I used a paint mixer on my drill and mixed it for about 5 min. More of it dissolved but there were still some small globs left. I'm wondering if I left it overnight if more would dissolve. I sprayed it through my sprayer and it was so thick, like g-man said, it came out with the consistency of thick pancake syrup. Alas, it didn't have any kind of spray pattern but I just dribbled it on the lawn in a circular pattern or sometimes a zigzag pattern. I'm thinking that 10g in 3gal is too much PAM. I'll try again today with less PAM. We'll see...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I forgot to mention that I sprinkled it to the water and stirred before adding more. Otherwise it will clump up. Think of it like making gravy with flour.

I really want to try using an end of hose sprayer. I think it will work due to the added water.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

Have you looked into the Chapin "Wet or Dry" hose end sprayers? You may be able to drop the PAM right in and spray.

Looks promising as a tackifier applicator. In general it looks like a good buy as far as hose end sprayers are concerned (lots of flexibility in calibration).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=quo8BdtYJrg


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

I'm wondering if it's too thick. I have a pump sprayer and I had to really pump it up to get it to move through. I'm imagining 60+ psi. I doubt the venturi effect will be strong enough to pull product through a hose end sprayer. If you use so little PAM as to reduce the thickness, then maybe it could be run through a sprayer at that point anyway.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

I'm not sure if this relies on the Venturi effect or not. It looks like a different mode of action for granular applications.

You are supposed to remove the feeder tube for dry applications; the water then enters the dry area and agitates it and forces out the mixed solution. At least that is my _assumption_ given what I read/saw online. Here is a video that explains the granular setting at 1:30:


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Mozart said:


> I'm not sure if this relies on the Venturi effect or not. It looks like a different mode of action for granular applications.
> 
> You are supposed to remove the feeder tube for dry applications; the water then enters the dry area and agitates it and forces out the mixed solution. At least that is my _assumption_ given what I read/saw online. Here is a video that explains the granular setting at 1:30:


Hmm. That dry setting sounds interesting. Definitely not venturi for that setting.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Dry application should plug that sprayer up.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

So, I tried 5g in 3gal in my sprayer, I got a little shape of a fan out of it but I felt the amount I would need to apply isn't worth the hassle of using the sprayer. I ended up just putting 5g in a 5gal bucket and just poured it out. It seems to have helped reduce wash from a heavy storm last night but now the question is, how do I do wide spread coverage? It seems to be quite a hassle to mix these buckets. I'll need a lot of them to cover a large area.

I have a submersible pump. I wonder if I use that and a garden hose if that'll work. I'll need to mix a trash can sized amount though. Hmm...


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

The area I put the PAM all washed away. I got 2" in about 45 min. I put out seed and covered with peat but it turned into a river and disappeared. Next, I'm going to rough up the ground, put down seed, and roll it flat. This way the seed will be under the top of the dirt and if there is another downpour, hopefully at least the seed will stay put. I'll put down more peat and PAM and see what happens. We are forecast for rain all week.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I had an idea after reading more on the PAM that I think you might be able to try. In a wheelbarrow place a bag of dry topsoil with dry PAM and mix it all together and then place it over the seeds and roll. The idea is that when the soil gets wet, the PAM will expand and form the gel but it is already mixed with the soil, so it should hold.

The areas that I applied a lot of dry PAM held the best. I was concerned with damage to the seeds/germinated lawn, but it is all looking good in those areas. I wish I had applied more dry PAM.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

g-man said:


> I had an idea after reading more on the PAM that I think you might be able to try. In a wheelbarrow place a bag of dry topsoil with dry PAM and mix it all together and then place it over the seeds and roll. The idea is that when the soil gets wet, the PAM will expand and form the gel but it is already mixed with the soil, so it should hold.
> 
> The areas that I applied a lot of dry PAM held the best. I was concerned with damage to the seeds/germinated lawn, but it is all looking good in those areas. I wish I had applied more dry PAM.


I'm happy with the current grade and didn't really want to add more soil. Think this will work with peat moss or compost instead? Or is the concern that these materials are too light and will wash away? The dirt stayed in place but it definitely has some clay content and silt. Not too much sand. Think I should try to sprinkle the pam with the seed and roll it together?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

PAM and seed sounds good too. To me the key is to keep the seed in the soil and the soil from washing away. Thats why I think it might be best to apply it to the soil. I'm just brainstorming. Maybe apply it with the seed after you rough up the ground before you roll it.

The product Soil Moist is a PAM product. The intent of soil moist is to keep the seed moist for germination. The PAM we have it more to make it sticky, but it should also work.


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## Mozart (Jul 17, 2018)

g-man said:


> The areas that I applied a lot of dry PAM held the best. I was concerned with damage to the seeds/germinated lawn, but it is all looking good in those areas. I wish I had applied more dry PAM.


Interesting that the dry application worked the best, I'm glad you tried it even if it was just a Hail Mary and not an experiment per se. Did you apply the same amount per square foot wet and dry? Or did you apply more as a powder? I imagine it was much easier to apply as a powder?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I wanted to give an update on the PAM and it is not good news. I've monitoring the areas I applied the PAM very heavy. Those areas (see image in page 1) no longer have any grass. They used to have some, but it is gone. the areas around the blob are all ok, but not in the sticky stuff.

Therefore, there is an adverse effect to too much.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Doh! I did apply it heavy in some areas. I'll go throw some extra seed down. I'm still not completely satisfied with the pam. I feel it did ok to hold the seed but I feel these steps were more effective.

1. Breaking up the surface using a rake, verticutter, or something to loosen the top 1/2".
2. Throwing down seed.
3. Raking the seed into the surface so you don't see it on top of the dirt anymore.
4. Rolling the soil so it is flat on top.

I feel it had a better effect on holding seed in place than leaving the loose dirt and spraying it with PAM. The seed stays under the top surface. The rain seems to have just washed over the top layer of dirt and not disturbed the seed. Of course, this is for a reno situation where it is just dirt. Also, this may not work for standing puddles as that may raise the top soil layer and turn it into soup. I'm not sure I see the benefit of PAM yet.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I did those 4 steps plus PAM and used the 260lb 220E roller, but it was not enough for the +5in of rain. I think we are expecting a miracle from the product.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Maybe I have enough clay content or very little sand so my soil just stayed put after I rolled it. For me, the rolling was really the ticket. The first seeding, I didn't roll it and the rain washed the soil with the seed on top away into the culvert so I guess I'll have grass under the driveway in the pipe now... I do wonder how it'll fare without sunlight... I'll take some pics and see what happens to it over the next year, especially since it can't grow much of a root system.

I kind of feel that m-binder may be more effective.


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

@g-man what do you think happened? Maybe it deprived the seedlings of oxygen?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Hmmm. PAM tackifer. I pictured @g-man going into the grocery store and buying PAM, and spraying it on the soil.


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## Miggity (Apr 25, 2018)

I don't have g-man's experience with PAM, but I do have a localized observation. I have one 3x4" downspout that carries roughly half of my roof runoff. I mixed PAM (5g/4 gallons hot water, 6 minute agitation w/ drill and paint mixer) and figured I would try tank spraying since removing all of the filters and using my largest TeeJet on an electric sprayer would work better than everyone else's experience, right?

So anyway, I slowly dribbled a thin stream back and forth in front of the gutter discharge in a pie shape roughly 4'x6' at the end. The 2" tall seedlings obviously laid down with the first 0.4" rainfall, but in the PAM applied areas I have difficulty getting the grass to stand back upright as it is stuck to the soil. My Ego Power+ blower cannot move either the grass blades ot the tree leaves that fell in the PAM application area. I think g-man's description of pancake syrup was a little too spot on.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm cross posting this here. I noticed this foam showing up after a lot of rain. I think it is from PAM. I hope it is not causing damage.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4677&start=160


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@craigdt take a read at this thread to see the issues with the PAM.


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## ErosionWizard (Apr 7, 2019)

I know this is a old thread, but lots of info here. The main problem I see is the product and how it's being used. Sounds like it is just locking to its self and not really working as you would want. My dads place has gotten 4-5 rains and zero dirt has moved. The key maybe that I used the dry matiral to broadcast before working the top inch or two. This let the soil restructure and that holds everything in place.

You should never your a matiral that just makes a plastic layer on top of soil. The water can not percolate so your making other problems. You may keep the top dirt in place and still have erosion happen under that top cap. From what I am learning. The key is to help soil structure. The other stuff will kind of fall in line if you do that. Plants or lawn will have better nutritional uptake and more air flow also. The farm fields wouldn't be using this stuff for the past 20 years if it didn't work. The owner says if he can test the soil or see a test, he has no problem guarantying that his production will have a positive effect on your soil.

Agian it sounds too good to be true. But once you see it work, everyone becomes a believer.

OH and the up hill battle is going to be education about Different polymers. PAM is like a nick name for many different things. Many people have it in their mind that all are this or that. I'm learning each day that some things are similar but even than, they will have other qualitys that are very different.


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