# Please read if you are somehow new to this and ready to throw $$$ on herbicides



## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Hi guys,
I have been in this forum not for long, but am noticing a very troublesome trend.
New folks, emerging, trying to understand what is wrong with their lawn and...the first thing that the discussion goes around is CHEMICALS!
I will try to keep it simple. Chemicals WON'T FIX YOUR LAWN.
Before you think about it, get a beer, sit tight and read. Some journals from the top posters, some guidelines on practices, maintenance schedules. There are tons of info. You get lost? Drop a question. You'll get answered in no time. If you think it takes long and you have to do something about your lawn NOW, well then there is nothing you can do for your lawn. It's late. Lawn care takes time and patience. It also takes a long term strategy. If you are not into this type of s...t, take another beer and go to bed. The great idea of a great lawn overnight, will fade away.
I am living in Canada and was absolutely furious about all restrictions we have here. Not anymore... I now understand why (to an extend).
Herbicides, Fungicides are tools that give you a TEMPORARY advantage over a problem so you can fix it permanently. They are not the solution.
If your plan is a cocktails of those over the season, then you have no plan.
Before even you try to learn how to use them, try to learn how NOT to.
And last but not least, my chemical backround kicks in. All of the above products are complex organic formulas. They may have low to no immediate effect to you, but ALL are a ticking bomb. A sulfiruc acid can burn you severly at the spot, but has zero hidden effects to your health.
Those herbicides do exactly the opposite.
So, please, please, please, instead of asking what chemical to put on, simply ask where to start and be ready for a journey...
If you are not into this s...t get another beer...
With all of my honesty,
M


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@gergelybg I'm going out on a limb, but am guessing that you may be a chemist, chemical engineer, biologist, or at least have some level of experience or formal training or education in one or more of these areas, since you mentioned the chemical formula of glyphosate in another thread, and started referencing properties that contribute to how acidic a compound is based on the size of the carbon chain and how likely it is to lose a terminal Hydrogen.

As far as practical stuff goes, I agree...there are tons of broadleaf weed seeds in most soil, and wind, animals, etc. are always bringing in more. So, it's impossible to burn out every seed with a post emergent chemical. So, we try to pull out what we can if there are a manageable number and they're something that pulls easily. And mow often during periods of rapid grass and weed growth. And fertilize the turf properly. And use pre-emergents*...etc.

Another thing people (who don't have herbicide restrictions) can do is use lower risk herbicides.

*A lot of people may be shocked that conventional pre-emergents are mostly to prevent grassy weeds like crabgrass, and have less of an effect on broadleaf weeds.

Where I live, we have a lot of insecticide restrictions. We can't use Imidacloprid, Demand, and many others. But there are more sustainable and less or non-toxic biological options being released all the time, like Chlorantraniliprole, various Bt bacterial products, etc.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Green The biggest success I had is produce aspirin in a lab from scratch. I was obviously not clear (trying not to annoy everyone to hell). I am not against herbicides, but against herbicides as first and only tool to get a lawn.
Newer herbicides are having even less long-term studies. On paper electronic cigarettes are way less toxic than real ones. Are they?
I am amazed by Tenacity. Not the effect of it, but how it was developed. This may be the right path. I don't know.
Merit is evil. But there is a difference if you rinse your sprayer in the sink or on the grass...1000 times difference...
M


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

gergelybg said:


> @Green The biggest success I had is produce aspirin in a lab from scratch. I was obviously not clear (trying not to annoy everyone to hell). I am not against herbicides, but against herbicides as first and only tool to get a lawn.
> M


Interesting. I know someone who says he worked (not sure in what capacity...he is not a scientist) in an industrial lab that made aspirin.

Are you saying you were on a team at a company that worked on such a product, or just that you did so in a laboratory on your own (like a University setting)?

One of the chemistry teachers that we had in high school was on the team that invented one of the well-known arthritis pharmaceuticals.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Also, if you watch people like Allyn Hane and Matt Martin online (both are members here) they agree with you, and try to remind everyone in their videos periodically not to turn to chemistry as the first solution to weeds. As Allyn says, he is not the Lawn Care Chemical Nut.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Green said:


> gergelybg said:
> 
> 
> > @Green The biggest success I had is produce aspirin in a lab from scratch. I was obviously not clear (trying not to annoy everyone to hell). I am not against herbicides, but against herbicides as first and only tool to get a lawn.
> ...


End of 1st year in the University lab exercise. Ditched my diploma of MSc chemical engineering more than 15 years go. But it itches anytime chemistry is involved. Like to read and always trying to get deeper into the why and how. Lawn became a hobby way later and made things worse lol.
Stupid assumptions like an exposure to imidacloprid for a smoker may have less prompt effect vs non-smoker lol. merit kills with nicotine...
M


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Ok. Good thread and intro. Looking forward to your lawn journal.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

I don't think anyone here is preaching herbicides as the first and only tool to get a lawn.


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## Nehf11 (Jun 25, 2019)

What are your thoughts regarding Next Products (Air8, humic acid, RGS, green start, etc). I know they are not herbicides but are they safe and better to use?


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## jrubb42 (Jun 20, 2019)

pennstater2005 said:


> I don't think anyone here is preaching herbicides as the first and only tool to get a lawn.


Looks like BXMurphy is back at it...


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## iowa jim (Jan 22, 2018)

Some people do all the right things and still get BP, DS or whatever and use preventatives. Especially those folks south of the Mason Dixon line that deal with high temps and humidity and without chemicals they don't stand a chance in fighting off diseases without them. Good culture practices go a long way but sometime you have to do what you have to do and i don't think very many abuse them as it is very expensive and there is nothing fun about using them. Thank god for chemicals for some people that need them.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@jrubb42 you would think, wouldn't you.

Keep in mind the OP is French Canadian and although he writes very well, English isn't his first language. I don't believe the same trolling intent is there like it was with our dear old friend, Murph.

I think his posts might come across differently than the intent.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Nehf11 I have never used N-EXT products. They look very expensive to my eye. I buy 80% Humic acid and 100% Kelp (3 varieities of kelp), micros and bio stimulants and make my own mix. I don't believe N_EXT to be toxic.
@Harts Thanks. Correct, English nor French are my native languages. I may speak 3 more, and write it down, but people will get offended and take defensive position, I guess.
@pennstater2005 As per the post name, I was targeting new to the lawn adventure guys.
I am fully aware that most of us are using those products and are doing it responsibly. If you consider this to be inappropriate, please delete.
Cheers,
M


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

I ask that everyone please tread lightly in this discussion - and please remember that if readers cannot do anything with the content of a topic other than argue about it, it does not belong here. :thumbup:


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

That was your quote. It makes it seem as though the rest of us are prescribing herbicides as the "only tool". We are not. Not inappropriate but if this goes off the rails it will be locked. You can discuss and debate your reasoning behind less or no herbicides as you please.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

gergelybg said:


> @Green The biggest success I had is produce aspirin in a lab from scratch. I was obviously not clear (trying not to annoy everyone to hell). I am not against herbicides, but against herbicides as first and only tool to get a lawn.
> Newer herbicides are having even less long-term studies. On paper electronic cigarettes are way less toxic than real ones. Are they?
> I am amazed by Tenacity. Not the effect of it, but how it was developed. This may be the right path. I don't know.
> Merit is evil. But there is a difference if you rinse your sprayer in the sink or on the grass...1000 times difference...
> M


Although I don't buy the idea of not using any chemicals to the point of the government restricting them I think they are very important to get to that step where you don't need them anymore.

For example, in my lawn I used to use the scotts weed & feed over the entire lawn. Blanket covering it in chemicals when only 10 -20 weeds were present. I no longer do that. I spot treat all my weeds now. It's significantly cut down on the harm to the environment.

The best thing you can do is fertilize your lawn and use weed & feed until your lawn is thick enough to stop weeds on it's own. It's one of the reasons I did a renovation. Yes I used glyphosate (round-up). But now my lawn will be thick enough that I next year I might use a couple of ounces of weed killer to spot spray.

To sum up, chemicals can be used in an environmentally friendly way. Use them in a smart way, it's your own ground water that's at risk.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

gergelybg said:


> Hi guys,
> I have been in this forum not for long, but am noticing a very troublesome trend.
> New folks, emerging, trying to understand what is wrong with their lawn and...the first thing that the discussion goes around is CHEMICALS!
> I will try to keep it simple. Chemicals WON'T FIX YOUR LAWN.


The trend to use chemicals is needed. I was in Quebec and Montreal in July for vacation. I saw first hand the trend not to use herbicides. It was a shame to see a nice garden castle overrun by weeds.

We have to use chemicals in a responsible matter. I'm going to quote the cool season guide: 


> One of the key activities to perform is applying a pre-emergent control of summer weeds (eg. Crabgrass). It is easier and cheaper to prevent the weeds from growing than to kill them later.


A PreM is the best line of defense for most weeds.

Next chemical we need: nitrogen. A healthy thick lawn will prevent weeds from getting sun and developing. Then Phosphorous and potassium, but you need a soil test for them. Guess what, it is also in the cool season guide to do a soil test.

Lastly, we need DHMO, aka water. Yes water is a chemical and a dangerous one. It kills if we dont have it (dessert) and too much also kills(flood).

If you find something in the cool season guide incorrect, let us know and we can adjust it. But these post indirectly suggesting that we don't know what we are doing are not helpful.


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## behemyth (Jun 8, 2019)

I'm in no way a specialist in chemicals, im asking for help from the guys on here - but I'd be way more worried about all the people buying all the different herbicides from Lowes, and their local suppliers, and then asking for no help before applying them then i would be the people on here using stuff and trying to use it correctly. Last time i was in Lowes, they had over 16 ft of chemicals for all kinds of different things people could buy.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Despite some strong language n the OP, he makes some really great points that are important for beginners to understand. The most important lesson, in my opinion, is don't expect overnight miracles. Proper lawn care is a process, much like losing weight.

Additionally, while I agree herbicides shouldn't be the only answer, I do believe they can be a necessary evil, even with the best cultural practices.

The important point for new members should be that it's okay to ask for help with chemicals. But don't let them be your safety net. The cool season guide should be the first resource you turn to and needs to become your Bible, making adjustments for each specific person and situation.


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## dfw_pilot (Jan 28, 2017)

I agree with the comments above - The entire reason TLF was created was to help DIY'ers become _more_ responsible with their own lawns, not less. If new members or people only arriving here from DuckDuckGo results get the wrong impression, it's because they haven't read enough of the site.

As a warm season guy, I do have some powerful herbicides. The somewhat counter intuitive result is that with responsible use, I end up using fewer chemicals and herbicides, which is better for the lawn and planet.

Having a great looking lawn, whilst being responsible and a good steward, is what TLF is all about.


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

dfw_pilot said:


> As a warm season guy, I do have some powerful herbicides. The somewhat counter intuitive result is that with responsible use, I end up using fewer chemicals and herbicides, which is better for the lawn and planet.


I was just explaining this concept to someone asking about my lawn yesterday.

With two applications of glyphosate, and tenacity at seed down, my lawn is now set up to not need herbicides.

With the lawn cut tall, any new weeds have to waste a lot of energy getting up to the top of the canopy for sunlight. Their roots are weak and shallow. I can easily hand pull anything that manages to germinate.

As of August 26, I'll be one full year 100% organic, and it's because I used the big guns to establish the lawn.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Sinclair said:


> dfw_pilot said:
> 
> 
> > As a warm season guy, I do have some powerful herbicides. The somewhat counter intuitive result is that with responsible use, I end up using fewer chemicals and herbicides, which is better for the lawn and planet.
> ...


This sums it up pretty well for me too. Spot spraying herbicides as needed.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Question for gergelybg: When someone writes in saying they have a lot of weeds and dead grass (because of the ravages of summer or disease) and need to seed, what should we tell them? For the seeding to be successful, the weeds need to be dealt with. How do you suggest they do that?

I just read the herbicide guide here and I think it is very helpful. One suggestion for amendment: we should remind people to wear protective gear. I am in remission from myeloma and am especially wary of what products I use. I use Prodiamine and am careful about protecting myself. It's a once a year application. It has saved me from having to use any other weed killer. I'm using Serenade weekly. Not an herbicide but it does have a bacteria. I'm careful about how I spray it and how I clean up. For that matter, I'm being careful about cleanup after fertilizer. I have some mycorrhizae to use up when I overseed and I'm going to wear a mask when I apply it and work it in.

Everything has its risks. We have to use judgment and good sense and the knowledge about products that we have so far. Thank goodness that there are turf scientists and research and innovations.


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2019)

Gerge have you seen the lawn journals posted on here?

99% of that is due to good cultural practice.

Not sure if you are saying people have a good lawn due to herbicide use, or just recommend not using it all together???


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I have created some real turbulence! And in a good way!
My professional life strongly influences my posts. I do coach C level people how to create strategies in their jobs and look further down than next day or week. I read through all comments and see a team leaning in the same direction!
And isn't this forum about team work? I am all about it.
I may miss to quote some of you (please excuse me for that, this does not make your comment is any less important).
@Green I was thinking about a journal, but felt 'lower grade' to have one. Who would have read my non sense  This may have changed today.
@john5246 I could not say it better. Thanks for the comment!
@g-man I live in Quebec and it is sad! The only reason for such an extreme limitation on herbicides could be the excess of unreasonable use prior to it. And it is in line with my post objective. Many states started dramatically reducing the number of approved herbicides (NY, CA etc). I don't want to pretend having the crystal ball, but in not long more states will follow. Even you can still shop across states, doors will keep on closing...
@Harts Thanks again for softening things up. I really appreciate this.
@dfw_pilot This is what I am trying to say. But it takes a strategy from a newbie to achieve it. I barely used anything this year...
@Sinclair I feel you. Herbicide use to me is a meter of my lawn. The less I use=the less I need=the stronger my lawn is 
@pennstater2005 Thank you and sorry for the turbulence 
@Virginiagal I faced this few times in this forum. As I mentioned earlier, I am trying to get 'the pulse' of the person. I know it is extra work for me, but it gives me an idea of what this person would be able to achieve. I will say it again: The biggest confusion, new to the lawn care people may have, is what to expect and when. Some will drop a bomb and disappear… Others will come with a predefined idea of a herbicide mix they read about and will look for 'approval'. Others will quote smartly from the journals and other posts. This last category is worth the effort...
@macdawg I have read few journals, not all of them. The ones that fit more my area, are written down by established members, yes. And we have to have a common vision about lawn care as well. So few.... This forum is a piece of art! So much info...But I have to prioritize the info I read. I have a job as well .

I think, this became an open and honest discussion thanks to ALL of you. I am sincerely glad to have become a member. Your patience and openness is equal to none. Thank you guys,
M


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@gergelybg nobody is too "low grade" to have a lawn journal. 1) it keeps you on track and 2) I guarantee others will learn from it.

I think you have much more to offer than you give yourself credit for. You may create a lot of turbulence - as you say - but you certainly have a knowledge base that other would love to tap into.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

I really have some things I'd like to say in this thread but I'm heading wares warning to tread lightly so I'll stay quiet.


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## Phaseshift (Jul 2, 2019)

Green said:


> Also, if you watch people like Allyn Hane and Matt Martin online (both are members here) they agree with you, and try to remind everyone in their videos periodically not to turn to chemistry as the first solution to weeds. As Allyn says, he is not the Lawn Care Chemical Nut.


This, I ended up buying Allyn Hane's Cool Season Guide just to support him and to give me a step by step since I'm new to this. He also prefers to overseed instead of nuking the lawn and refrains from using chemicals until later in the process.


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## Phaseshift (Jul 2, 2019)

Sinclair said:


> dfw_pilot said:
> 
> 
> > As a warm season guy, I do have some powerful herbicides. The somewhat counter intuitive result is that with responsible use, I end up using fewer chemicals and herbicides, which is better for the lawn and planet.
> ...


this is a good point too, I like how this thread has started a very healthy discussion!


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Gergelyby, so your complaint is not that we recommend herbicides but that we are too quick to recommend them or don't inquire enough about goals and commitment or their knowledge about how to use herbicides?

I have an example we can work on right now: in the thread "is this a good plan" the poster is asking about using Tenacity on crabgrass. It's not what I would think of using on crabgrass but I suppose it might work. I didn't really answer him, hoping someone else would know how well it worked or to recommend something else. No one else has chimed in and now I'm thinking I ought to at least bring up quinclorac as a possibility. I haven't used either on crabgrass. But gergelby, how would you recommend we approach his question? The crabgrass will die at frost. But it would interfere with his seeding. Not sure what's going on with his pH. I'm thinking he doesn't have a real soil test.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Virginiagal said:


> Gergelyby, so your complaint is not that we recommend herbicides but that we are too quick to recommend them or don't inquire enough about goals and commitment or their knowledge about how to use herbicides?
> 
> I have an example we can work on right now: in the thread "is this a good plan" the poster is asking about using Tenacity on crabgrass. It's not what I would think of using on crabgrass but I suppose it might work. I didn't really answer him, hoping someone else would know how well it worked or to recommend something else. No one else has chimed in and now I'm thinking I ought to at least bring up quinclorac as a possibility. I haven't used either on crabgrass. But gergelby, how would you recommend we approach his question? The crabgrass will die at frost. But it would interfere with his seeding. Not sure what's going on with his pH. I'm thinking he doesn't have a real soil test.


I've just answered someone with a similar problem:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12328
I am focussing to give an advice how to make the lawn better. People buy the effect, first. Then they can commit to the effort.
What does a lawn with no crabgrass looks like? Bare spots all over the place with dead ugly crabgrass. Is it what they want? 
You are 100% right. Crab will be history soon for us up North.
If instead of focussing on the obvious invader they focus on the lawn...they win. You have to take this with a grain of salt. Every situation is different.
Without reading the post I would say, frost will kill crab as fast as Tenacity or Quinclorac. If they want to overseed, Tenacity is a good option (see I am not that Greenpeace) but if they have it and know how to use it. 8oz/acre will block most but KBG to grow. What is the overall plan after?
Will go and see this post now after shooting in the dark .
Thank you for your input brother,
M


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

I've had this lawn for 10 years and I've not used a single chemical until this year. Neighbours would shake their heads walking past, seeing me sitting cross legged in my lawn meticulously plucking thousands of individual plants from a patch of victoria speedwell. It was sort of theraputic but also sort of maddening because I've slowly been losing the war over time. My time was spent only picking weeds and not focusing on other important aspects of lawn care. I would delay cutting my grass because I wanted to carefully hand pull all the weeds with potential to spread seed when mowed, then I'd have grass that was too long to cut, and another batch of weeds close behind.

This year I've made a few quick spot spray passes with some 3-way, I'm relatively weed-free, and I'm reinvesting the saved time into learning about and employing proper nutrition, mowing and watering more regularly. That seems like a reasonable trade to me.

I want to focus in on this however:



gergelybg said:


> And last but not least, my chemical backround kicks in. All of the above products are complex organic formulas. They may have low to no immediate effect to you, but ALL are a ticking bomb.


@gergelybg this is worrisome at first glance, given your claims of having a background in this stuff, but I'd like to know more about what you mean specifically by "ticking bomb" because I like to be conscious about risk.

FYI I'm an engineer (not chemical) who values science and truth. From what I know, Glyphosate (for example) has been cleared as safe by reputable organizations, however was classified as group 2A carcinogen, meaning "probably carcinogenic" to humans. Red meat is also group 2A. The classification as I understand doesn't give much context around things like "in what quantities/concentrations/occupations" should you be concerned. Something to which a small exposure can cause cancer and something to which a massive exposure is required to cause cancer both can be group 2A.

We also don't really know the long term effect of things like daily cell phone use, but most people have accepted that risk. It makes sense to limit exposure (wear gloves, protection, minimize use) as much as reasonable given the unknowns, but our society would be very slow to adopt new technologies if our policy was to complete long term testing before approving anything for public sale/consumption.

The phrase "ALL are a ticking time bomb" leads me to believe you know something I don't, and that maybe there are risks known to the science/engineering community that I've missed... Can you elaborate?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@davegravy I am so happy to read your comment. This post may be shut down soon, due to the subject 'floating' around. I agree with the fact, that I may have hit 'deep waters'.
But I will answer.
Your brought glyphosate. Is this the only thing you use? If yes, then of the precautions you take and the frequency you use it (I used it 5-6 times in my life) I won't be worried.
Let's look now, at how many chemical formulas are at DoMyOwn.com...
Hundrets? All organics, produced by a complexe chemical reactions.
I finished same school as my parents. Chemical engineers family . We all worked at the same site, 8000 employees Refinery site. Mom worked right in the epicenter of action, dad at the Administration corpus nearby.
Mom died at 55 of cancer. So did most of my dad colleagues. All cancer victimes. He is now 76 and have no friends alive.
I have no reputable (paid by Bayer/Monsanto) studies for toxicity to support my point. I have one life, as we all do.
It is agreed by many reputable (not paid) sources, organics (even worse aromatic organics) are complex molecules and their impact on health takes extended (decades) years to start making some conclusions. People eat meat for...
Current supply chain desperately needs herbicides to keep crop delivery high and strike huge profits. So they will do all possible (similar to tobacco and petrol) to keep the status quo.
If they may have found common interest with the pharmaceutical mafia...then I guess we all lawn obsessed are just scraping the poisonous surface of a well intended trillions of profit business. 
And again, I may look like a hippie with a poster: No nukes!
I have 'offended' few very reputable forum members. That was NOT my intend.
I was simply asking for educated decisions by new to the lawn care life.
It is a simple switch from: If I can have I can throw it. Not a big deal. to... Why do I need it, why do I have to apply it. Is this the best option?

M


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## davegravy (Jul 25, 2019)

In response to this I'd be in favor of adding a blurb in the appropriate sticky threads that newcomers are directed to. Something along the lines of "chemicals should be used sparingly and strategically, most of the work in achieving a healthy thriving lawn is organic in nature". Not sure of about the use of "organic" in that sentence, there may be a better word.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

You're preaching to the choir for the most part. 95% of us practice good IPM. I'll keep my other comments to myself as they will not be helpful.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

davegravy said:


> In response to this I'd be in favor of adding a blurb in the appropriate sticky threads that newcomers are directed to. Something along the lines of "chemicals should be used sparingly and strategically, most of the work in achieving a healthy thriving lawn is organic in nature". Not sure of about the use of "organic" in that sentence, there may be a better word.


I agree with the organic definition. Completely replaced BIO organic.
In the chemical world organic is any molecule containing the Carbon structure. Aromatic organic is either the Cyclohexane or Benzene ring.


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Virginiagal said:


> I just read the herbicide guide here and I think it is very helpful. One suggestion for amendment: we should remind people to wear protective gear.


I made an edit. Please feel free to make any more suggestions. Thanks.

p.s. I don't read every thread but if you post in that specific thread I started, I'll see it.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I am so happy to see this post moved here...
It has nothing to do with organic, expect if someone meant the chemical definition of organic. Then, I am expecting to see all herbicide posts to join the party .
@Virginiagal Thanks for adjusting. I had a 'great' day. Seed down on 6ksqf. I had a city visit to make sure I don't use anything but tap water for the reno .
I give up on the cause. Throw it down lol.
M


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

If a landscape was a car and you were a mechanic, chemicals are the wrenches. The skill of the mechanic is what makes use of wrenches get the car fixed. An inexperienced person randomly throwing wrenches at the car will just scratch up the paint.

I can't say if it can or can't be done without chemicals but I can say if it can be done it would take an extreme amount of time and work. There's a reason every farm, golf course and athletic field use plenty of chemicals. My understanding of the balance struck in many parts of Canada is that it's ok if residential lawns mostly never really look great to result in a perceived greater good of fewer chemicals applied to the environment. It's a legitimate balance, one of many that could be struck.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Delmarva Keith said:


> If a landscape was a car and you were a mechanic, chemicals are the wrenches. The skill of the mechanic is what makes use of wrenches get the car fixed. An inexperienced person randomly throwing wrenches at the car will just scratch up the paint.
> 
> I can't say if it can or can't be done without chemicals but I can say if it can be done it would take an extreme amount of time and work. There's a reason every farm, golf course and athletic field use plenty of chemicals. My understanding of the balance struck in many parts of Canada is that it's ok if residential lawns mostly never really look great to result in a perceived greater good of fewer chemicals applied to the environment. It's a legitimate balance, one of many that could be struck.


Well said.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Yes and no. A few patches of weeds? Pull them out. 
But some weeds are actually invasive and will kill the grass if you don't kill them first. My newly seeded bermuda was taken over by florida pusley. The yard was too new to crowd out the pusley, and although I was spending at least 2 HOURS a DAY pulling weeds (seriously, some days closer to 4 hours) I was losing the battle - it was spreading faster than I could pull. Herbicides were very much the answer. You can see in the photos how extensive it was. And had I waited for the pusley to die off it would be the time the bermuda went into dormancy, so those spots wouldn't fill in, and once the bermuda was ready to spread in the spring new weeds would be growing in those spots. 
Answer was herbicides. Well, that or I suppose spending an extra 2K on sod instead of seed. Not an option. 
That said, I am using Spinosad organic products successfully for armyworms in the lawn and thripts and mites on my flowers. I'm using a pro-biotic biological fungicide, also organic and having great results. I use a combo of organic and synthetic fertilizers. I mow and water. 
But when you want an artificial result, sometimes you need an artificial solution.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Also important to remember that the dose makes the poison. 
And that natural doesn't mean safer.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Please note that the OP reached out and requested that their account be closed.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Gergelby,, if you're still reading, I'm disappointed you requested to have your account removed. You promoted a helpful conversation and I fear there is misunderstanding going on. My question to you was on the order of "hmmm, what would he prefer instead?" I was genuinely interested in what alternative you would support. And then after you answered I thought that perhaps we were misunderstanding your position, that you weren't against herbicide use but rather just against being too quick or unthoughtful in their use. That was something I think most all of us would agree on, that we should be educated on what works best when and what the dangers are. Now in a later post, you say you've given up. But why? I say, stay involved. If you read some posts where herbicides and fungicides are being too loosely thrown around, speak up. The products are useful and do a lot of good, but there are also risks and it's good for us to be deliberate and thoughtful about how we use them.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2019)

Opinions are void of meaning when they are so vague. What herbicide use are we talking? In what amount? Applied how? How often? On what kind of lawn?

You'd get the same result going on a keto forum and saying keto diet is bad, a jiu jitsu forum saying jiu jitsu is bad, etc.

Open discussion cannot occur when your position isn't even outlined.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Please note that the OP is back with us - with a different username (privacy concerns).


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## dkggpeters (May 31, 2019)

I have noticed (not particularly on this site) that there does seem to be a trend to spraying will cure all ills. I have seen a lot of misdiagnosis of fungus and weeds in which a fungicide/herbicide was put down that would not treat it. I also am seeing a lot of spraying weeds when hand pulling may actually be more efficient in some situations. I do agree that these chemicals are needed and useful and are also harmful when used inappropriately.

I really started to think about it when wondering if what I am putting down can have any negative consequences on my dog. I now only spray when absolutely needed and that what chemical I am using is correct for the situation.

I also noticed that when I had yellow suckling clover it was actually a lot easier to walk the yard and hand pull them. It was a lot quicker than mixing the herbicide, spraying, and cleaning the tank.


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## Drewmey (Oct 3, 2018)

Not that I disagree that we should be carefully watching our use of chemicals (because we should), but I would argue that the *first* thing many new DIYer's need to do _is_ use chemicals. Once you have rid your yard of the majority of weeds, it is much easier to prevent weeds in a more environmentally friendly way....growing strong grass that prevents weeds from growing through their thick canopy. But if you can never get the weeds out in the first place (post E), then you can never lower your herbicide use without good results. Plus, I agree with G-Man that a Pre-E should pretty much always be used or else you are fighting a losing battle. You will only be forced to use more chemicals down the line. Other than nutsedge, I have not sprayed (Post E) for any other weed this year. I plan to spray for Poa-A though later though. But because of Prodiamine, etc. I have not had to use Glyphosate, Quinclorac, 2-4D, Triclopyr, etc. (though I have had to spray some encroaching ivy but nothing else in the grass is the point).


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

My opinion (not verified fact but a little common sense): spot spraying any EPA registered chemical according to label directions has such a negligible effect on "the environment" as to be less than detectable. Everyone blanket spraying something leachable with a long half life in a watershed, odds increase assuming the chemical has a detrimental environmental effect, which is not necessarily certain either.

Around here, the big offender that does actually move the needle is fertilizer. Nitrates and phosphates have a very measurable and observable effect on water quality and aquatic life. Spot spray with impunity but watch your fertilizer amounts and timing.


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## doverosx (Aug 7, 2019)

Well this thread went no where fast!

I'm in Ontario, Canada 2 hours away from OP and would love to know what I can use. I am currently pushing the grass to overgrow weeds, hand pulling, throwing down baby shampoo and sea kelp organic fertilizer and the weeds and grass are super happy! It's a deeep green/blue party on my lawn right now. Oh I almost forgot, I've thrown down some nematodes to treat Japanese Bettles that are rampant in my area.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

Drewmey said:


> Not that I disagree that we should be carefully watching our use of chemicals (because we should), but I would argue that the *first* thing many new DIYer's need to do _is_ use chemicals. Once you have rid your yard of the majority of weeds, it is much easier to prevent weeds in a more environmentally friendly way....growing strong grass that prevents weeds from growing through their thick canopy. But if you can never get the weeds out in the first place (post E), then you can never lower your herbicide use without good results. Plus, I agree with G-Man that a Pre-E should pretty much always be used or else you are fighting a losing battle. You will only be forced to use more chemicals down the line. Other than nutsedge, I have not sprayed (Post E) for any other weed this year. I plan to spray for Poa-A though later though. But because of Prodiamine, etc. I have not had to use Glyphosate, Quinclorac, 2-4D, Triclopyr, etc. (though I have had to spray some encroaching ivy but nothing else in the grass is the point).


Very true, at least depending on the weed. There was ZERO way to get rid of my Florida Pusley without chemicals and I should have done it sooner. But now, after two blanket applications of celsius I can not only easily hand pull any new weeds, but the grass got a chance to fill in and now makes it hard for the weeds to get started. But the grass couldn't do that when it was overrun with weeds.

I did start to think I need to spot treat for crabgrass, then smacked myself and realized grabbing a weed tool and digging it out was a lot more productive.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

I just realized, even moved this post stayed alive.
I am so gracious to you guys kept on feeding opinions. I simply thought, well...I am done in a way, I am not ready to defend a position, I don't have comrades to share it. I was wrong!
I had to switch account name due to irony .
I defend what I have been accused of lol...
Trying to catch up with your comments:
@Delmarva Keith Mother nature has no wrenches. Farming was done with no herbicides for centuries. Luxury lawn with no weeds is off balance state. It can't be seen except if a human being interfered.
Like human safety is the overlap of hazard and human activity, environmental safety is the one of nature and humans.
In the whole human history this interaction never lead to a win for the planet...maybe, except of those illegally peeing on the side of the Highway...
I am not a Greenpeace guy, but like to expose the other pole...
And last...are you 100% convinced EPA is the reference? It is only legit one yes. I will strongly recommend you to watch documentaries on Glypho use, GMO glypho resistant corn, soy etc. glypho is a HUGE business. And EPA is paid for it.
And because glypho trade mark expired long ago, Monsanto had since the early days the perfect strategy (I wished the newbies had 1% of that). Selling glypho resistant seeds . Ingenious move, worth today...you know how much Bayer paid for... 
@ktgrok I was not aiming at people that know how to do, but the ones that don't, and those that are not trying to stop the latter category.
Nature creatures (plants) create poison only to defend themselves. My hat down to how Tenacity was developed...
And I am afraid natural means the only safe way...for nature. This is how nature works...
@Virginiagal I am still here, sorry mate. As I said your replies after the 'switch' took completely by surprise... I see, there are many that care about this topic. Thanks!!!
@macdawg I made myself a little statistics... I am in the cool lawn forum. over 50% of newbies DID NOT EVEN READ THE LABEL. But they have a 'poisonous plan' and they come for approval. They have no plan, nor strategy. They simply want 'this ugly thing' off their graveyard. I may exaggerate but...not by much.
@doverosx You still have access to US herbicides. You can read about this in this forum. The use is at your own risk. Nobody from Canada is writing from jale yet...lol
Here it goes...Back on fire


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

Babameca said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I will try to keep it simple. Chemicals WON'T FIX YOUR LAWN.
> 
> ...


At the most basic level you'd have to define what you mean by "lawn". If you're talking about a mix of whatever grasses happen to grow or you have a high tolerance for weeds, I'd call that more of a pasture than a lawn, but your statements would apply. Otherwise, for most of us a lawn is most often a monoculture of grass varieties selected based on criteria of esthetics, varieties that may or may not be the most appropriate for our climate. Since nature always pushes towards balance, maintaining such an unnatural monoculture will always require we tilt the scales with the use of herbicides and fungicides, there is no such thing as a permanent fix. I for example have millions of Bermuda and Crabgrass seeds fly in from my neighbors marginally kept lawns every summer, and without herbicides the cool season grass would quickly get outcompeted and wiped out every summer. Good luck pulling Bermuda by hand.

Chemicals are certainly not the answer to every problem, but they are certainly the most appropriate answer to some problems if you're trying to maintain a high quality lawn. Just because you have not personally encountered those problems, doesn't mean they don't exist.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

j4c11 said:


> Babameca said:
> 
> 
> > Hi guys,
> ...


Hi,
Thanks for joining this hot topic .
I also see you know me and my 'not knowing anything about anything' very well. Deja vu? I don't judge and have never did. I share. So if you want to bring a valuable opinion to this topic, please do.
Of what you problem is, I would say a well 'measured' prodiamine app 2 times/year will give NO chance to crabgrass wipe off your lawn. I don't know anything about Bermuda, except that some grow it as their main grass. If you decided you want KBG in the scorching hot Carolinas weather, well I guess you are right.
The fact is then, that your ego for a 'perfect lawn' goes above the reasonable limitations, mother nature gives you . And this is all about this post is about.
Nature preservation does not happen because we expect 'others' to do something about it.
I am hoping you will try to imagine how to keep your lawn as close as possible to your elevated taste with no chemicals. Because, again, it is not how but only when this is going to happen.
I am very transparent person and can't hold this back. I hate when we act as primates thinking of us and our era as the end of all eras...As smoking turned from a fancy habit to almost an 'outsider' act in most of the developed world, manicured lawn will be, one day, the thing...
Cheers brother. Thanks for chiming in. I love those 'duels',
B


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I'm going to lock this post. It turned into a pointless philosophical argument and then into a personal attack.


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