# St. Augustine must have chemicals and application timeline?



## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

For those with SA, what herbicides, fungicides, etc. would you say are must haves and what is your timeline for applications?


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## iFisch3224 (Jun 11, 2018)

bassadict69 said:


> For those with SA, what herbicides, fungicides, etc. would you say are must haves and what is your timeline for applications?


Kinda varies upon what you're trying to treat/correct.

Are you trying to do a complete DIY list? Insects, fungicides, etc.?


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## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

yes, I am ready to buckle down and get this SA to spread and looking great... I am wanting to do a PreM app this fall, then again in spring as well as putting down whatever post emerge I may need.

I have started fertilizing heavily already and it has made a huge difference!

I just started watching the LCN videos and it looks like prodiamine is popular with him.


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## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

Basically just trying to compile a shopping list...


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Post-emergent herbicides: 
Dicamba + Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium + Thiencarbazone-methyl (Celsius WG)
Metsulfuron + Sulfentrazone (Blindside WDG)
Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Sulfosulfuron (Certainty)

Apply Blindside if needed in spring, Celsius if needed in summer (caution: will yellow grass), dismiss/certainty if needed in spring/fall

Pre-emergent herbicides:
Prodiamine (Prodiamine 65 WGD)
S-Metolachlor (Pennant Magnum) - can sub Dithiopyr if you don't have yellow nutsedge

Apply half rate of Prodiamine in February and half rate in November. Apply full rate of Pennant Magnum in April.

Insecticides:
Bifinthrin (Bifin IT)
Imidacloprid (Imida Pro 2 SC)

Apply a minimum of every 3 months, but can be up to monthly as long as you follow label. Apply two apps of Bifin and then switch to two apps of Imida Pro, repeat. Do this year-round.

Fungicides:
Propiconazole 14.3 / Myclobutanil 20EW (aka Eagle 20)
Thiophanate-methyl (Clearys 3336F)
Azoxystrobin (Azoxy 2SC Select)

Interchange between these three on a preventative basis any time of the year that grass is growing. Apply the lower, preventative rates.

I also use growth regulators in some places to make edging easier. Not sure if I am a fan on St. Aug yet or not, benefits unclear at this time.


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## deeevo (Jun 18, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Post-emergent herbicides:
> Dicamba + Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium + Thiencarbazone-methyl (Celsius WG)
> Metsulfuron + Sulfentrazone (Blindside WDG)
> Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Sulfosulfuron (Certainty)
> ...


 I would say this is a pretty good list. I used Pennant Magnum and Gallery in February and late April and I have had to spot spray just once for yellow nutsedge. I use the GCF products for soil health and FEAture for green ups. Pennant Magnum and Gallery made a world of difference for me this year.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Post-emergent herbicides:
> Dicamba + Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium + Thiencarbazone-methyl (Celsius WG)
> Metsulfuron + Sulfentrazone (Blindside WDG)
> Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Sulfosulfuron (Certainty)
> ...


I agree with everything you said.


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## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

Perfect! Exactly what I was looking for!


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## Rackhouse Mayor (Sep 4, 2017)

Good info above. Here's a general timeline for you: Auburn St. Aug Calendar


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## LowCountryCharleston (Jun 21, 2018)

Really great information. Thanks for all the input.


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> I also use growth regulators in some places to make edging easier. Not sure if I am a fan on St. Aug yet or not, benefits unclear at this time.


I've used Celsius for that purpose on my SA during the summer. I guess that's an off-label use, but it definitely slows down the SA growth.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

deeevo said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Post-emergent herbicides:
> ...


Question you use insecticide in the winter months also?


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> deeevo said:
> 
> 
> > Ecks from Tex said:
> ...


I'm assuming this was meant for me. St Aug never goes into dormancy, so I'm in need of insecticide through November at least usually. My rotation usually works out where I have protection during dec and January but I don't typically do new applications in the winter. I usually have an app in Nov and let that carry over towards the end of Feb. or first part of March, then back on a normal rotation for the year.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

TSGarp007 said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > I also use growth regulators in some places to make edging easier. Not sure if I am a fan on St. Aug yet or not, benefits unclear at this time.
> ...


This is true, although I will say it's probably not the best idea since it technically regulates growth in an unhealthy way for the grass. You make yourself more susceptible to disease. Just my two pennies


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

Ecks from Tex said:


> TSGarp007 said:
> 
> 
> > Ecks from Tex said:
> ...


Valid point. Although it does keep the weeds away, and that is where the weeds like to sprout. Also, it helps in disposal. Better that than down the drain! (I wouldn't do that...)


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## chrisverner (Jul 16, 2018)

You guys spray the bifenthrin and the imidacloprid right on the grass? For some reason i thought this was a bad idea?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

chrisverner said:


> You guys spray the bifenthrin and the imidacloprid right on the grass? For some reason i thought this was a bad idea?


Yep,I spray it on the grass all the time. I typically wait until the evening before I spray.


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## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

I am resurrecting this old thread rather than start a new one so I can have all this info in one thread...

What is safe for broadleaf weeds in SA? Both pre & post...


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## sabanist (Mar 28, 2019)

Lot of good info here.

I can tell you what I have and what I have seen work.

1. Preemergent: prodiamine, I apply it in two applications per year. Spring and fall. So far pretty decent results. I think I'm still learning the best application timing on this one. I've had success but some weeds still grow. I have like two lifetime supplies of it so its best to split the cost up with a neighbor or something.

2. Post emergent: Dismiss, this stuff works GREAT on nutsedge and a couple other broadleafs. Takes about a week to really see the effects so be patient. Reapply after about 2-3 weeks if the weed isn't dying.

3. 24D, this stuff will kill many broadleafs. It will hit dollar weed quickly and itll be gone in like a week.


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## sabanist (Mar 28, 2019)

So regarding growth regulators on St aug. I have some patchy areas that were killed by a fungus last year. If I apply growth regulators, will that not help fill in those areas quicker, as I learned on here that PGR encourage horizontal growth.

Or will it inhibit the filling in?


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

sabanist said:


> So regarding growth regulators on St aug. I have some patchy areas that were killed by a fungus last year. If I apply growth regulators, will that not help fill in those areas quicker, as I learned on here that PGR encourage horizontal growth.
> 
> Or will it inhibit the filling in?


Interesting question. My best "guess" would be that it hinders growth in all directions. But you are correct. The lower mowing height (2" for dwarf varieties, and 3.5" for standard varieties) is supposed to encourage more lateral growth. However I noticed that if I cut that low it makes any brown spots more noticeable.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

Ecks from Tex said:


> Post-emergent herbicides:
> Dicamba + Iodosulfuron-methyl-sodium + Thiencarbazone-methyl (Celsius WG)
> Metsulfuron + Sulfentrazone (Blindside WDG)
> Sulfentrazone (Dismiss) or Sulfosulfuron (Certainty)
> ...


@Ecks from Tex you still on this schedule?

also just curious why blindside in spring and dismiss/certainty in fall?


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

He may give you a different answer, however, Blindside contains MSM. Let I talked to my neighbors lawn care guy, the use msm in spring mainly because its the growing season. Because its so harsh on the grass, the grass can quickly repair d itself. Versus in the fall when the grass cannot repair itself. Can't really use it in the summer because of temps. Sulfentrazone, the other ingredient in blindside should not be applied when temps are averaging 85+ daily. Also because in summer the turf is already stressed as well. Celcius is easier on the grass and the increased temperature actually makes it more effective. Hence the name Celcius.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@kb02gt makes perfect sense. thanks for the response. Used some blindside in the summer early early in the AM when temps were in the 70s and it got up to mid 90s and scorched that area. Pretty scared to use it now and have like 100 years use of it. :lol:


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

mjh648 said:


> @kb02gt makes perfect sense. thanks for the response. Used some blindside in the summer early early in the AM when temps were in the 70s and it got up to mid 90s and scorched that area. Pretty scared to use it now and have like 100 years use of it. :lol:


Yeah I hear ya. It can be confusing cause they will tell you to apply it when less than 85. But they do not say whether or not that is for the application only, or if its the average daytime temps they are talking about. 70 - 80 is more optimal. I just put dismiss NXT (carfentrazone + sulfentrazone) a few days ago and so far so good. Avg day temps were 82. Did the same in the summer at about 89 degrees avg as I tried to see how much I could push the boundaries. Bad idea. They are not joking with those temps, lol


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## Wilber256 (Sep 20, 2020)

Hello all, Newbie/rookie here. Thanks for allowing me to join your group. As I scroll through the post there are lots of smart and friendly people on here. I reside in Northeast Mississippi, about 25 miles south of Tupelo MS. I have St. Augustine and Centipede grass along with every weed and weed grass known to man. I have turned a cow pasture into a lawn and mow about 4 acres.

I started sprigging SA and centipede in 1976 With mostly runners that were hanging over curbs, running into flowerbeds, gardens etc. You name it And if folks wanted it removed I would get it. 
My Grandfather was one of if not the first person to introduce this area to SA. He was a truck driver for a seed company that delivered all types of garden and lawn seeds though out the south.

He saw SA in some lawns in Florida and loved it and asked for some sprigs/runners from a few places and they gave him all he wanted. So he would bring SA home every time he made a run to Fl. This was in the late 1950's to early 1960's.

I am a disabled senior but remember playing in his back yard with grass like carpet. We would always take our shoes off and roll and play for hours it was a wonderful lawn to walk on or play on.

That old home place is one mile from where I live. After moving here getting married and settling down it was time to have a little lawn to BBQ and relax and play on so I started my yard from digging along a sidewalk that needed cleaning. So I took my buckEt load of pieces of grass with dirt attached and dozens of runners and started my lawn. That was early fall 1976.

To make a long story short so not to bother folks I have always shopped at the hardware or feed stores for my chemicals for weeds. But I have places 150-200 ft from the house close to my catfish pond that I have sprigged and there are weeds of all types that I have no idea what they are. 
I would really love to kill them back so the SA and centipede can grow unobstructed and fill in faster.

I have allowed the what looks like dollarWeed take over in some places I don't really know what to spray as I have been battling this weed for 20 years. I had a lawn service company come and do a program on it once but come spring it popped back and stared again. It's so bad in a few places it has completely covered and chocked out the SA. If it's removed it will be bare ground there no grass.

I have some manor can someone tell me the proper mix to kill back the DW and not kill the SA? I live far enough south that it won't get cold until mid to late Dec but we will have spurts of 35 degree high for a couple of days but then back to mid 50's of course we have frost normally mid to late Oct. and on occasion early Nov. but it won't kill this dollarWeed. I would like to spray the manor but have lost the paper off the bottle.

It's a small bottle of granules you squeeze into the measure top. I am afraid if I don't do it soon it will have to wait until spring or I will have to or use image .Any help will be greatly appreciated.


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## bassadict69 (Apr 2, 2018)

I am still way too new to be making suggestions, but would love to see pics of your lawn!


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

mjh648 said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Post-emergent herbicides:
> ...


Hey @mjh648! Sorry man I have not logged on in forever so I am just seeing this post.

More or less I am still on this schedule, but over time my overall conditions have improved to the point that I have adjusted it a lot as I adopt to a healthier and thicker turf.

On the pre-emergent schedule, nothing has changed. Sticking to that schedule is the reason I am able to back off on the rest of my chemical applications.

For post-emergents, I still stick with Blindside in cool conditions and Celsius in warm conditions ONLY if I absolutely have to. Celsius will absolutely stunt growth and also slightly discolor St. Augustine and make the grass tips very weak/frayed. But in truth I have applied zero (that's 0) post-emergent this year. I don't really have any significant weed problems anymore as long as I stick to the pre-emergent schedule. The most important pre-emergent application is always the fall application of Prodiamine at half-rate.

As for why I suggested dismiss/certainty, I honestly cannot remember and I don't think I have ever actually applied them to the lawn although I do have an old bottle of it I believe. I suspect what I was looking at back in those days was I had a serious Virginia buttonweed problem when I bought this house (if you are not familiar thank your stars b/c it is a serious problem in that it mats up and kills whole sections of the yard in shade, requires multiple years of treatment, has no effective pre-emergent, and treatment is very problematic for St Aug because it comes in the summer and the chemicals that treat it are very tough on St Aug when applied at the correct rates to kill the buttonweed -- celsius saved my butt there). So I think I was taking a hard look at the fact that I was applying the max rate of Blindside early in the spring to try and kill off any early growth of buttonweed, applying spot treatment of celsius in the summer to regulate how fast it grew, and then needing a different active chemical to apply in the fall once temps fell into the 80s/70s so that I could finish off the kill of the remaining buttonweed. I had to do that for like 3 years straight before I got the job done, but in truth it came back again this year I just was mowing lower than normal due to the rains we got so it was not noticable and I opted to not spray it this year.

As for insecticides, I have started to only apply around the house 4 times a year and apply in the yard/landscaping as needed. I usually spray in the yard in the spring once I start to see ant beds. We had zero issues this year so I did not spray at all.

As for fungicides, for whatever reason as my turf has beomce healthier I have had less problems of the fungal variety. I applied zero funcigide this year, for example. Rains here all the time so I am always having minor blemishes in small spots but in general I have not had any deadfall this year and the turf has recovered fairly well. Still looks quite nice to be honest even though we had two major hurricanes this year. But ideally before extended rains I will apply fungicide still, and when I do so I stick to the schedule/rotation I mentioned above. No changes there other than I do not apply quite as much becuase the grass is more resilient as far as I can tell.

Hope that answers your questions! Good luck to you sir! Happy to respond if you have other questions -- I am truly a st. aug expert after what I went through with the buttonweed as well as a landscaping expert (40+ trees, I would say 5,000+ sq feet of landscaping beds, a 12 zone irrigation system that I designed myself, etc.). But now I just let my equipment and previous hard work do the work for me and just maintain status quo and stick to my day job as a no-good/greedy corporate lawyer.

But for those life-or-death questions, the man who taught me the fundamentals is @Greendoc. He is the master and I am the apprentice. He's forgotten more about St. Aug than I will ever know. But he better not be braggin about it because I will sue his ***! :lol:


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

mjh648 said:


> Ecks from Tex said:
> 
> 
> > Post-emergent herbicides:
> ...


Oh and as far as the blindside, the other guy answered correctly. Apply it to St. Aug when temps are below 85 (per label, I won't do it for temps above 80 to be honest becuase I am telling you this stuff will fuck your grass up in warm weather). The active chemical is really hard on St Aug in warm weather.

Celsius is much better once temps get hot, but it does not kill as effectively as Blindside. Blindside is great if you have winter weeds in Jan/Feb, for example. You can go in and do a blanket application before the growing season and kill off any weeds that broke through your pre-emergent barrier with minimal risk of harm/stunting your grass.

But once you hit mid-May, PLEASE USE CAUTION and move over to low applications of Celsius (if able, read label to see what rates are necessary and opt for lowest) and only if absolutely necessary. You will end up ruining a month out of the precious growing season because the grass will look like crap and it will not grow to cure the frays and general poor appearance caused by the AI.


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

mjh648 said:


> @kb02gt makes perfect sense. thanks for the response. Used some blindside in the summer early early in the AM when temps were in the 70s and it got up to mid 90s and scorched that area. Pretty scared to use it now and have like 100 years use of it. :lol:


Yep, we have all been there with the blindside. Most people do not realize what a sissy grass St Augustine is. Blindside in the summer will pretty much ruin the rest of your growing season and probably kill a portion of the turf. Celsius is the only way to go --- and i literally mean the ONLY way to go if you MUST apply in the summer months. I have not found any other checmical with the correct AI that is rated to kill the main weeds we see (as well as my personal nemesis buttonweed).

Get yourself some Celsius. Heck I have a big thing of it and would be willing to give you some to try out if we are near eachother. It was reasonably priced from pest/lawn solutions in Houston when I ordered online a few years ago. I'm sure what I have is techniclaly past expiration date but I aint worried about that.


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

I spot spray with Celsius at the max rate, no surfactant, in high temps, tank-mixed with Certainty, with no yellowing or damage to my SA grass. Not sure if that comes down to actual application rate (nozzle, pressure, how quick my hand is) or just different types of SA. I'd recommend anyone using it in the heat for the first time on SA grass to do a test at the mid-rate first before using it widespread. It will stunt the growth but doesn't look bad, not noticeable once you mow again. I'm guessing it slows lateral growth a little also, which is counterproductive obviously. Still, all my trenches and bare spots, save a few heavy traffic areas, have already filled in from my irrigation reno last winter. So it doesn't stop the lateral growth. If I do a post-emergent spray at all, that is what I use. If cooler, I use a surfactant. Certainty appears safe all year round for me, just like Celsius.

I too have a buttonweed problem (and doveweed). The Celsius/Certainty (I always tank-mix to save time) spot spray at max rate one time suppresses it quite well. Sometimes it goes away after one spray, taken over by the grass. Other times it takes another application. Doveweed I think requires two apps, it turns so pale yellow after the first app it's impossible to not want to hit it again, b/c it is so noticeable in the turf.

Overall, @Ecks from Tex, my approach is pretty similar to yours. Can't remember if I got it from you or not years ago... The Pro/Pennant/Pro is how I try to roll now, though I often mess up on the timing b/c life gets in the way. I stick to granular fungicides to limit the bottles of chemicals I have, and to save time. I only apply when things start to turn a little. The SA grass can handle a little grey leaf spot here and there in my opinion.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

@Ecks from Tex Can't tell you how helpful this abundance of information is. It just seems like once you think you have a grasp on something there is another layer that takes you down this rabbit hole that makes you realize you don't know as much as you thought. Very humbling to say the least. There's a handful of threads I have bookmarked that I reference back to on a consistent basis or link to new people like me trying to get a base understanding and this is the one I go back to the most so thanks.

@TSGarp007 What's the science behind the high heat and no surfactant? Using a surfactant just means the plant absorbs the herbicide better right? So going max rate but no surfactant vs max rate with surfactant just means the no surfactant treatment doesn't get as much foliar absorption right? Would using a surfactant and dialing down the rate get you in the same ballpark as max rate with no surfactant?


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

mjh648 said:


> @TSGarp007 What's the science behind the high heat and no surfactant? Using a surfactant just means the plant absorbs the herbicide better right? So going max rate but no surfactant vs max rate with surfactant just means the no surfactant treatment doesn't get as much foliar absorption right? Would using a surfactant and dialing down the rate get you in the same ballpark as max rate with no surfactant?


While what you said has some logic to it, I can't claim to know one way or the other. Although it would be hard to know what ratio you should be using if you tried it. I just follow the label recommendations, and if anything am more conservative. The herbicides are still pretty effective without the surfactant.


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## Buffalolawny (Nov 24, 2018)

This mentioned here in this video is about it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBbtr-_iWWY&t=0s


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

He doesn't give any specific reasons to bag clippings. If you have a soil high in organic matter it probably doesn't matter, but otherwise you are actually removing the OM from your yard, which just doesn't make sense to me. The clippings could theoretically keep the grass moist for longer, though I don't know of any data showing that is significant enough to matter. If it is mowed regularly and the clippings don't bunch up, then I just don't see why you would bag. Unless you are trying to get rid of a disease on the leaf blades from spreading. Or you have a lot of weed seed heads or something like that maybe.


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## Buffalolawny (Nov 24, 2018)

Number one reason. Fungus and humid related issues. St Aug does not break down clippings. Being stolon spreading lawn it sits above the soil and rots on the stolons. Liquid products are the best.


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

My clippings definitely break down into the soil. Best I can tell no one in my area bags and we pretty much all have SA.


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## mjh648 (Sep 1, 2020)

in addition to bifenthrin for my lawn I was planning on using lambda cyhalothrin as a rotator while also using it for the interior/exterior of my house for pests and mosquitos. Looks like Lambda however is rather toxic to earthworms.

Alternative would be Imidacloprid but that's still moderately toxic to earthworms and highly toxic to bees.

Any recommendations here that wont wipe out my earthworms and bees?

edit: maybe the first search I read was incorrect. Appears as though Lambda Cyhalothrin's "Adverse effects on
earthworms are implausible. " (https://www.fs.fed.us/foresthealth/pesticide/pdfs/052-21-03a_Lambda-Cyhalothrin.pdf pp95)

Also, "We conclude that the insecticides [one being lambda cyhalothrin] registered in Canada for soybean aphid control should not affect earthworms when 
applied according to the label recommendations" (https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/pdf/10.4141/cjss2011-094 pp7)

Just to add to this:

It appears as though one of the fungicides listed in this thread thiophanate-methyl (Clearys) has a severe toxicity to earthworms.

How does everyone balance beneficial organism's and their chemical rotations?


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