# Novice in MN just looking for something green



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Hi, I'm new to the forum. Had a few spots of my lawn die off last year due to drought and weeds, looking for advice on when/what to put down to get some grass growing with minimal effort. It may be sacrilegious to ask on this forum, but has any had any luck with DIY hydroseeding (ie Sunday, HydroMousse, etc)?

Below are some facts about the lawn. Thanks for looking!

Size: Troublesome spots I'm looking to deal with are about 0.10 acre. Total property is 2.25 acres. We only mow 1.25 acres. 
Light: Direct sun
Irrigation: None
Weeds: The most common in my yard are clover, dandelion, creeping charlie, and crabgrass, with a few small spots of thistle. I hand spray Trimec to deal with weeds, with mixed results. 
Mowing: Once per week, clippings bagged (to avoid spreading weeds more). 
Zone: 4B almost 4A
Soil Temp: 32 degrees 5 day avg according to this: https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature


----------



## Bean4Me (May 13, 2020)

Welcome to the forum fellow Minnesotan. There's some good info on the pinned cool season guide at the top of the forum. I can't comment too much because I'm still a relative rookie and I don't really know how to cope with no irrigation. I'd say we're probably about a month away from really actively getting into the lawn. Don't rush to get out there before the lawn is ready.

Best of luck this season.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Thanks for the kind words, Bean. Good info on still being about a month out from doing much with the lawn - I went back to the greencast website and it does look like late/end of April is when historically we get to about 50 degree soil temp, which from what I gather would be the time to put something down. 
In the meantime I'll hit up the U of M for a pair of soil samples, one from the front yard that looks fine to my Tier 1 eyes and one from the back that is in bad shape. 
Thought I'd share some pics as well. 
The first is of the front, the next two are of the back.


----------



## Bean4Me (May 13, 2020)

I also did a soil test with the University last season for the first time. I would suggest you pay a little more and do the professional test which gives you all the micros on top of your NPK. The basic package only gives you NPK along with a recommendation for the season. I was a little bit disappointed only getting NPK last season. Try to grab your soil sample before you throw anything down so that you get a representative sample.

Your front yard looks very comparable to my neighborhood. Your back yard needs a bit of work. Hopefully you can get some seed down and keep it moist to fill in those bare spots.


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

Hi @Gustie13 and welcome. Don't worry, I'm also a "just want something green" guy and they haven't banned me here yet, LOL!

First off, I would wait until mid to late August to seed. The hardest time for our cool season grasses is summer. Spring seeding gives the new baby grass plants very little time to establish before the harshest hottest months arrive. Late summer seeding gives you fall and spring. If you absolutely have to seed in spring, a good guideline is to seed at about the time the forsythias in your area bloom. But then you will really need to baby it all summer long.

A soil test from your state's cooperative extension is a good idea. Just as important is preparation of the area for seeding. Just scratching the surface and throwing seed down is a recipe for failure. Most likely there is some compaction in that area. If you could till the area up, that would give the new grass an excellent head start as they will be able to send roots down deeper sooner. The deeper you can till, the quicker the new grass can establish deep roots. Deep roots = drought tolerance.

Choose your grass wisely. Cheaper grass seed often has a large percentage of ryegrass. Ryegrass is good for only one thing - quick germination. It does everything else poorly. If you don't want to irrigate, choose something that is mostly tall fescue and possibly 5 to 10% Kentucky bluegrass for sunny areas. 100% tall fescue is OK too. Fine fescues are great for shade, but will struggle in full sun areas.

Keep in mind when I say "drought tolerant" that I mean that is *once the grass is fully established*. You will need to make sure the grass gets at least 1 inch of water per week for at least the first year. Anything less than a year old is not fully established.

And above all, resist the urge to seed too heavily. Yes, we all want to see a thick lawn as quickly as possible. But heavy seeding will increase competition for nutrients and water and make failure imminent. You are better off seeding too light than too heavy. Patience is the word here.


----------



## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Can you take closer pictures of the soil with the darker areas? That might be algae and nothing will grow through that.

Also give it some more time to green up to see how the coverage is.

I guarantee theres some type of bluegrass in it, so it will fill in with enough nitrogen if the possible algae is controlled.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Well shame on me - I thought I'd checked this thread in April and didn't see any responses, so apologies to @ABC123 and @Deadlawn for leaving you hanging.

I haven't done anything new with my lawn this year and have continued to see bare patches and weeds. 
I did send in soil samples to the U of M for testing. My results were as such:
Backyard (where my original pictures are from)

Frontyard (which doesn't have any dead spots like the backyard)


I also had a few irrigation companies out for bids on installing sprinklers, with bids ranging from about $3800 for just the backyard to $7000 for the the back and most of the front. Sounded about right from the conversations I'd had with my neighbors who have irrigation systems. That's probably a year or more away however.

So now I need to figure out what my best plan is for the fall. https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753 Obviously says the most important thing to do is get Nitrogen down, but it also says to spoon feed if overseeding. Give my large yard, I'm not sure what the best plan is.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

I'm in WI and I did about 25k of lawn last fall in an area I couldn't irrigate but does stay more moist because it's lower. I used a Lesco ttf/kbg mix. Just aerated and dropped it then after 4 weeks did granular urea at .5lbs per 1k every 2 weeks until end of oct and it came in much better than it's ever been. I cut normally throughout.

I'd have to confirm seed mix but I think it was teammates plus?


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> I'm in WI and I did about 25k of lawn last fall in an area I couldn't irrigate but does stay more moist because it's lower. I used a Lesco ttf/kbg mix. Just aerated and dropped it then after 4 weeks did granular urea at .5lbs per 1k every 2 weeks until end of oct and it came in much better than it's ever been. I cut normally throughout.
> 
> I'd have to confirm seed mix but I think it was teammates plus?


Thanks for the info, that's helpful. 
Forgive the basic questions but I assume you did plug aeration, not spike aeration? Did you pick up the cores afterwards? I'd prefer not to as it's a big space, but I have weeds so I'm wondering if leaving the plugs will just spread them more. 
From the U's lawn guidance on aeration and seeding, seems like the optimal time to do a process like you described would be in the next few weeks, then Sept would just be watering and Oct would be for Nitrogen.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

Core aeration and left them, I ran a drag around to break them up some and mixed in with the seed as well.

You will spread weeds so I would spray a preM of tenacity as well when you put the seed down. Or a granular mesitrione.

Fall is great for killing weeds, or planting grass.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> Core aeration and left them, I ran a drag around to break them up some and mixed in with the seed as well.
> 
> You will spread weeds so I would spray a preM of tenacity as well when you put the seed down. Or a granular mesitrione.
> 
> Fall is great for killing weeds, or planting grass.


This is where I start to get confused on the order and possible overlap of Herbicide, Aeration, and Overseed (Nitrogen in the late fall doesn't seem to impact or be impacted by the aforementioned). 
In the Cool Season Herbicide guide is this: 
"Make sure to apply Prodiamine or another pre-emergent in the early spring and early fall to stop most broadleaf weeds (except if you are seeding)."
If I don't put Prodiamine down, I'll just be spreading weeds when I aerate and the seeds will have more competition. If I do put Prodiamine down, the guide says not to seed.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

Tenacity (mesotrione) is pre and post control, best use is pre when planting grass. It prevents broadleaf and some grassy weed seed germination but will let your TTF germinate and grow just fine. prodiamine will prevent your grass from germinating as well so don't use that.

So you can aerate and put down grass seed then spray with tenacity or find a granular mesotrione and spread then water in. Will allow your grass seed to germinate and stop the others.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> Tenacity (mesotrione) is pre and post control, best use is pre when planting grass. It prevents broadleaf and some grassy weed seed germination but will let your TTF germinate and grow just fine. prodiamine will prevent your grass from germinating as well so don't use that.
> 
> So you can aerate and put down grass seed then spray with tenacity or find a granular mesotrione and spread then water in. Will allow your grass seed to germinate and stop the others.


Ok, so the plan would look something like this:
This weekend: Aerate
Early next week: Seed (and possibly roll)
Late following week: Tenacity
Later in fall: Nitrogen

Its supposed to be rainy around the Cities through mid-Saturday so I figured right after that would be a good time to aerate with the ground soft. Then the chance of rain is supposed to be low-ish until next weekend, so I'd get the seed down before that, then Tenacity down after that forecasted rain.



Do you recall where you got the Lesco Teammates Plus from? The only place I could find via Google was SiteOne and their website said it wasn't stocked nearby and I would have to call to place a special order. There is a place near me that has some JRK seed, seems as though some others on the forum from MN have used JRK so I might give that a try. https://www.spikesfeed.com/turfshop/grass-seed/lawns.html


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

I got it at my local Siteone. I checked my prior orders and that was what I used.

If you're aerating to seed, I wouldn't really care about moist soil to get deeper plugs because for seeding you just want more plugs, not necessarily deep, so if they're an inch, that's enough IMO for seeding. 3" plugs are great, but for seeding not necessary. It's not going to hurt either. Get that part done. Then i'd wait for more rain in forecast and get seed down right before that. I'd also no wait to spray or spread the tenacity/mesotrione. Do that before the rain too. It needs to be watered in to form that preM layer anyway.

Then just hope for a decent rain  we got a deluge. 2 nights in a row with 2+ inches when I did my last one last year. figured it was screwed. Then it didn't rain for like 2 weeks. It was fine. But again, it's lower to soil stayed moist.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Alright, will go pick up equipment in the morning and get started. 
Pics added for posterity


----------



## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

I see a lot of algae, make sure to scrape the surface up. If the ground stays too moist it will grow back and inhibit the grass from spreading or germinating at all.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Aerated on Saturday when the soil was still moist. Did 1-4 passes.









Plan now is to mow Wed then wait until Friday to put down seed. Supposed to be dry this week with 50% chance of rain both Sat and Sun. Will roll after spreading seed to help with soil contact. 
Sprayer and Tenacity are en route. Have to see when they get here before figuring out best time to put down.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Got around to it this morning. Aerated some more as the ground was soft enough and figured why not, put down seed (JRK), then rolled. 
Supposed to get a little rain tonight then will have to stay on top of watering as there is none in the forecast after that. 
Still need to put together the sprayer and get the Tenacity down, just a little tired after putting together aerator, spreader, and roller 🤣


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

You'll want to get that down soon, before any germination. My TTF was sprouting in 4-5 days already just 2 weeks ago. You can be tired this winter


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> You'll want to get that down soon, before any germination. My TTF was sprouting in 4-5 days already just 2 weeks ago. You can be tired this winter


Well I think Mother Nature just reset the clock - we just had a big storm go through and I'm pretty sure my seed will be washed away when I check in the morning.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Looks like we ended up getting a little over .5" of rain in a little over an hour. Didn't see much seed when I checked this morning. When I checked the forecast Sunday morning it only showed about 20% chance of .1" of rain last night :x

Its windy today so I won't have an opportunity to put down the Tenacity. Will probably target Wednesday as that's when winds are supposed to be back down under 10mph during the day.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

my overseed last year saw 2 nights in a row with over 2.5 inches of rain. Thought it was toast. It affected it, but it still worked well. No slopes for it to run off, but it definitely floated and settled in some places more than others. I did roll it in prior so I think that may have helped some.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> my overseed last year saw 2 nights in a row with over 2.5 inches of rain. Thought it was toast. It affected it, but it still worked well. No slopes for it to run off, but it definitely floated and settled in some places more than others. I did roll it in prior so I think that may have helped some.


Thats encouraging, thanks. 
I found time today to put together the sprayer and get down 4oz of Tenacity on the part of the lawn that I've aerated and overseeded. Was pressed for time, hadn't used the sprayer before, so just did the 4oz.

Got some new above ground sprinklers that I'll daisy chain together and start watering everything in tomorrow morning.

How much/often should I be watering? And how (if at all) should I adjust mowing?


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

I always do just to make sure it's "wet" . how long between depends on winds, temp, humidity, sun shade etc. But anywhere from 2-5 times per day until germination and about a week after that I continue with 2-3 times per day. once it's all coming up and growing then I just do once every couple days depending on soil moisture and temps.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

wiread said:


> I always do just to make sure it's "wet" . how long between depends on winds, temp, humidity, sun shade etc. But anywhere from 2-5 times per day until germination and about a week after that I continue with 2-3 times per day. once it's all coming up and growing then I just do once every couple days depending on soil moisture and temps.


Unfortunately I'm working with a large space, no irrigation, and well water. I'm running an above ground daisy chain of 2 sprinklers - I tried 3 this morning to cover more ground but I couldn't get enough pressure from the well to get the 3rd to work. 
I kept the sprinklers running for 30mins in each place this morning before moving. Made 5 sprinkler moves, covered about 3/4 of the space I overseeded/sprayed.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

It's more water than I could put down on my larger space. I didn't run any. Too far away from source and too big.

I only do that for smaller areas


----------



## Deadlawn (Sep 8, 2020)

30 minutes? You don't need to water seed that long. 10 minutes each watering is enough. You just need to keep the seed moist, not wet.

Once it sprouts, then run longer and less frequent waterings.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Deadlawn said:


> 30 minutes? You don't need to water seed that long. 10 minutes each watering is enough. You just need to keep the seed moist, not wet.
> 
> Once it sprouts, then run longer and less frequent waterings.





wiread said:


> It's more water than I could put down on my larger space. I didn't run any. Too far away from source and too big.
> 
> I only do that for smaller areas


Thanks for the info! 
I did 10 minute intervals this morning. Took me about 2 hours to cover as much of the area as I could reach. Probably not sustainable to spend that much time moving things around, but I'll try my best :lol: Sadly, supposed to be sunny for about 8 days straight now :lol:

Edit: Tried something this afternoon - picked up a splitter and two new sprinklers to see if either of those things would help. Unfortunately not, when turning on the second/split hose, the first new sprinkler's output was greatly reduced.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Maybe a little hard to see in pictures but Tenacity appears to be doing it's thing, clover and dandelion starting to whiten good. I used 4oz of it in 15g of water, spread across roughly .5 acre. Plan to apply after another 4 weeks, and will probably try to also hit areas that I didn't before (will just need to wait until right before rain fall as I don't have hoses that reach that far to water in).
Little bit harder for me to tell how much germination I'm getting. There appears to be some new growth but not really sure if it's the right amount or even from the seeds I put down (vs from the existing stuff I turned up during aeration). There's definitely some bare patches that I would've expected to see some/more growth from.


----------



## wiread (Aug 27, 2019)

if your seed is down you're going to want to wait until you cut it a couple times before you spray tenacity again


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Most of the germination I'm seeing is in the aerated holes. Presumably from either Mother Nature (heavy rain the night I overseeded) or my own overwatering moving the seeds. 
The Tenacity has done a good job thinning out the weeds.
As a result of both above, I have plenty of bare spots now &#129315;

Trying to decide whether to try to put down another round of seed at 4 weeks after initial Tenacity (that would be 9/27) and hope that seed doesn't get washed away from the bare spots. Seems late Sept would be at the very tail end of fall window here in MN.


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

Would mid-October be too late for fall Nitrogen around the Twin Cities? We've reached average first frost date and I haven't put down any nitrogen yet, but without irrigation I'm at the mercy of Mother Nature to provide rain to water in the N - next forecasted rain in Oct 15.


----------



## robjak (Mar 31, 2020)

Minneapolis, MN 10-Day Weather Forecast - The Weather Channel | Weather.com


Be prepared with the most accurate 10-day forecast for Minneapolis, MN with highs, lows, chance of precipitation from The Weather Channel and Weather.com




weather.com




weather looks okay, dont see any freeze. I would do it. But rain is the key. try to time it right before. 

What will you be ferting with and how much?

Watch the models:








Models: GFS — Pivotal Weather


View GFS weather model forecast map image for Precipitation Type, Rate in North Central US on pivotalweather.com.




www.pivotalweather.com












Models: ECMWF Hi-Res — Pivotal Weather


View ECMWF Hi-Res weather model forecast map image for Precipitation Type, Rate in North Central US on pivotalweather.com.




www.pivotalweather.com


----------



## Gustie13 (10 mo ago)

robjak said:


> Minneapolis, MN 10-Day Weather Forecast - The Weather Channel | Weather.com
> 
> 
> Be prepared with the most accurate 10-day forecast for Minneapolis, MN with highs, lows, chance of precipitation from The Weather Channel and Weather.com
> ...


I still need to figure out the what / how much. I haven't put any down before. It looks like there's a chance for a tiny bit of rain Monday the 10th but then nothing until the 15th/16th.


----------

