# KBG Overseed on FF



## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

Looking to overseed SS1100 over my 90% fine fescue yard. Yard looks decent spring/fall, but I'm ready to step it up a notch. Game plan is something along the following:

-Stunt FF with tenacity (4oz/k) 1 week (?) before seed-down
-Rake up grass to help with soil exposure pre-seeding
-Cut back to 1 1/2" - 2" a few days after Tenacity (pre-seeding)
-Overseed 1-2 lbs/k with SS1100
-Follow N-Ext seeding/overseeding regimen at seed-down (RGS/AIR8/Humic 12/002 Micro pre-seed) and 2-3 days after seeding (GreenePOP/RGS post-prep).

I used the N-Ext Seeding/Over-Seeding package this spring on some damaged areas from a patio install in March. Used a few pounds of scotts KBG I had in the garage for a few years. Other than some weeds (no tenacity that time) it came in DARK and has stayed that way other than a bit of heat stress. Made me realize how much more I could get out of my lawn with the products I'm already using. So the plan is to feed the seed with the same using recommended instructions (RGS/AIR8/Humic 12/002 Micro pre-seed, GreenePOP/RGS/GreeneStart/GreenePunch post-germination). Only caveat is that I know I don't want to be feeding the fescue the same time i'm stunting with Tenacity, so I'll probably do the pre-seed addition a few days after I put tenacity down and thin out the yard.

Questions I have with this plan:

-How long does Tenacity usually stunt FF? If I spray a week before scalping and seed-down, how much longer would I have before I needed to mow again? Long enough for the KBG to germinate and grow? Would definitely plan on mowing short the first time after to help give the seedlings a chance.

-I'm assuming any of the N-Ext products applied directly before seed-down would be fine as well, as that's basically what I did this spring with success. My yard already has RGS/002 Micro on it from my June/July apps.

-Would I need a second round of Tenacity after germination to help stunt the fescue again? I plan on playing this one by ear.

Anything else i'm missing?

I've been following Allyn's cool season liquid plan (Greene County Fert Liquids) for most of the year and have definitely noticed a difference in color in my fine fescue. Not sure why my lawn is predominantly FF (other than the original owners wanted low maintenance), but it seems to do OK in both full sun and shade (other than when it's over 80 degrees). However, even with the pop on the fine fescue, the KBG i seeded is two shades darker. So it's time to blend in the rest of the yard!

Picture for reference of what I'm working with:


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Why not just apply a PGR rather than tenacity (if you dont need a herbecide then why use it theory) and mow it short to shock it further(scalp it if needed). If it dies good, if it doesn't let KBG take over in a few years.


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## M32075 (May 9, 2019)

I like the scalp idea with tenacity and no fertilizer at seeding if you don't want to do a full kill. After the kbg gets past the pout stage drop some fertilizer. If the scalp kills some of the ff even better. Don't drop fertilizer at seed drop you don't want the ff to outcompete the blue grass.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

uts said:


> Why not just apply a PGR rather than tenacity (if you dont need a herbecide then why use it theory) and mow it short to shock it further(scalp it if needed). If it dies good, if it doesn't let KBG take over in a few years.


My goal is to get closer to a well blended mix in the near future, not to nuke it completely. It's pretty thick, so I expected that tenacity would not only help with any minor weed issues I have as well as help potentially open up some more room for the KBG to take off.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

M32075 said:


> I like the scalp idea with tenacity and no fertilizer at seeding if you don't want to do a full kill. After the kbg gets past the pout stage drop some fertilizer. If the scalp kills some of the ff even better. Don't drop fertilizer at seed drop you don't want the ff to outcompete the blue grass.


Yeah, the liquid overseed package works great as written for a blank canvas, but I agree on at least waiting for a sign that the tenacity has stunted the grass enough that I'm not throwing the fert on the fescue.

About a month ago, I decided to use 5oz/1k of the GreenePOP on the whole yard as a substitute fert, so theoretically there should be something for the seed to take up in terms of NPK assuming it's not all gone already(would help if I had time for a soil test before seeding, but here we are).

So one question still remains. How long would tenacity usually stunt fine fescue?


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

It is very hard to overseed KBG into FF even if you throw everything at it to stunt it.

A lot less work to plug in KBG from sod to the yard and let it take over. I have experimented in a bunch of spots with this. Next year I plan to go hardcore plugging.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Kaba said:


> It is very hard to overseed KBG into FF even if you throw everything at it to stunt it.
> 
> A lot less work to plug in KBG from sod to the yard and let it take over. I have experimented in a bunch of spots with this. Next year I plan to go hardcore plugging.


What about TTTF overseed?


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

I know nothing about TTTF but I do know PGR worked for me a lot better than KBG in an overseed due to its quick germination. FF is so tightly packed it can choke out other types.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

Kaba said:


> It is very hard to overseed KBG into FF even if you throw everything at it to stunt it.
> 
> A lot less work to plug in KBG from sod to the yard and let it take over. I have experimented in a bunch of spots with this. Next year I plan to go hardcore plugging.


I totally understand this and have read this in many different places. Forgive me if I sound arrogant or like I lack understanding on this (honestly, I do have some lack of knowledge due to no firsthand experience), but it seems that so many people say this, but I can't seem to find very many instances where people have actually tried it and documented how they did so, other than saying it doesn't work. If i'm missing a succesful (or failed) KBG overseeding please point me to them!

I do have a pro plugger as well that I used last year in a section of my lawn to transplant some KBG plugs. They stayed around and have grown a bit, but definitely are not taking over by any means yet. I have considered plugging a larger section of my lawn again before seeding this year and flipping the plugs over to allow for more open spaces for kbg to take hold. But, 11k sqft is a LOT of plugging....


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

Ask me how I know it sucks lol&#129315;&#129315;&#129315;
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=207090#p207090

I need to follow up, I have barely any KBG in it. Mostly the rye came through.

Also check this out from my plug test on a bare spot that was mossy:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=302755#p302755

Also, for what it's worth it's very hard to quantify if a kbg overseed worked because well its super hard to look at x thousand square feet and guess a percentage of KBG, even harder in FF because it's so dense in the spring/fall. All I know is it's a lot of work for me to find KBG in my lawn, which by my measure is a fail on the overseed. But the PGR is a big upgrade so it wasn't a waste of time 

I plan to tackle plugging KBG over a period. If you have sod rolls ready you can probably cover 500sqft in an hour or so depending on how tight you plug. To your point of 11 ksf, that's a different story. If I were you I'd either just bite the bullet and reno or plug over a few years in the worst areas.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

By the way, @Kaba, looking back over your lawn journal I would have considered yours a success  . Do you consider yours more of a full renovation than an overseed? Or is it just the ratio of PRG that you have to KBG? Some prior research in seed mix selection has shown that using over 20% PRG may make it difficult for KBG to get a foothold early on.

https://turf.purdue.edu/how-much-perennial-ryegrass-kentucky-bluegrass-in-a-mix-3/

I completely realize I'm fighting a potentially losing battle with this one, hence my questions on tenacity and duration. The more I read over the label, the more I believe my best bet may be to continue mowing shorter (every 3-4 days now leading up to spraying), then scalp and spray as close to seed down as possible. I was originally thinking I would spray first, wait 3-4 days, then scalp, but I may be better off spraying as close to seed down as possible since I only have one shot ad this (can't spray again until after 2-4 mowings or 4 weeks post-emergence).

(You replied before I could finish my post.  )


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## jcs43920 (Jun 3, 2019)

Heck if you want to stunt the fine fescue, just put 2lb of nitrogen down in the summer and let it get brown patch lol!

Seriously though, I would keep scalping it, cut off all water and that sun this time of year should stunt the heck out it. Then I would ariate, dethatch, top dress then overseed with like 4lbs per 1,000 of blue. Pre germinate half of it to get faster germinate then the other half don't pregerminate. Doing this should stagger the germination times and prevent overcrowding the seed. Then just water it barely enough to constantly keep it moist.

By the way if you think that it would fail the. Just get a top notch perennial rye blend and do that. Some of the new ryes have great color just like the elite bluegrass types. You'll get much much better results and it will be faster than Bluegrass.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

I have a similar problem and just went through this myself. My lawn had a small mix of KBG and PRG, but was dominated by FF and was always thin and whispy :roll: . I will be power seeding in the next three weeks with some high quality KBG. However, I just finished a retaining wall and was entirely replanting certain areas of my yard, so I figured I'd also top dress the existing areas and overseed with the hope of getting more KBG to stick. Order of operations:

1. Entirely scalped my lawn as low as I could take it. The entire thing became all yellow/brown. I almost thought I killed it entirely. Also, I hadn't mowed in 2+ weeks and it was the height of summer. It REALLY got shocked.
2. Spread humic acid.
3. Spread milorganite.
4. Spread hydretain.
5. Watered in and sat overnight. I think hydretain needs to be watered in but can't remember. Probably should have read the label.
6. Spread seed.
7. Spread Scott's new lawn fert with weed control (mesotrione/tenacity).
8. Covered with peat moss.
9. Spread erosion control rated tackifier (far more sticky than box store stuff).
10. Watered 3X day, religiously.

At this point, I'm 13 days from seed down and trying to figure out if I should mow. Convention says no, but my KBG/Ry mix is already 3-4 inches tall and thickening well. The lawn has also taken on a noticeably darker tint as the existing KBG/Ry seem to have weathered the storm far better than the existing FF. Based on this, I would say go as low as you can and really stress out the FF. In my scenario, the stand I had did not bode near as well as the KBG and Ry, which I did not anticipate, but am very pleased about. Additionally, consider adding peat moss. I had some areas where I didn't because there was already a lot of existing turf. Those areas are coming in as well, but far more slowly. The peat moss made a big difference for me, even over areas with existing turf.

Two other variables:

I hit the jackpot two days after seed down and we hit a summer cold streak with a couple of rain spells. This was PREFECT growing conditions. I know you can't control this, but it's still important to note.

Also, the mix I used was the Lesco premium athletic blend. It does not consist of the popular cultivars most people talk about on this forum as they're Lesco specific, but this experience lends me to believe they're likely faster germinating than most. I'd have to review the NTEP data to know for sure.

Hope this helps.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

There is a simpler way that gets you a kbg lawn. Just use specific pgr. Glyphosate. Since you don't plan to bring soil and I don't see a lot of weeds, just do a very good even app of gly and seed at the same day.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

jcs43920 said:


> Heck if you want to stunt the fine fescue, just put 2lb of nitrogen down in the summer and let it get brown patch lol!


I'm laughing while crying at this. It's so sadly true. Every year.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

@jcs43920 I'd love to try pre-germinating a portion of the seed, but since I'm currently doing liquid only, I really don't have a carrier for the wet grass seed to apply, unless using the dry seed would work. I'm using a SpeedyGreen 2000 broadcast spreader. Not sure adding peat would help my spreading issue, but I am considering a thin layer for keeping moisture.

Also, wouldn't stunting the grass now make the fescue more difficult to treat with anything to keep it stunted during the germination period? Usually you want grass actively growing to take up Tenacty (at least that's my understanding). My luck I'd stunt it with a drought, then it would be perfect weather and rain the first 3 weeks of my overseed and crowd my seed out. 

@g-man This would definitely be easier, but would absolutely eliminate the fescue, correct? I'm not sure I want to kill it all out. Maybe I could just do polka dot patterning with the glypho instead of flipping plugs... :lol: I'm sure that would look GREAT the first year if nothing else takes.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

jephil08 said:


> By the way, @Kaba, looking back over your lawn journal I would have considered yours a success  . Do you consider yours more of a full renovation than an overseed? Or is it just the ratio of PRG that you have to KBG? Some prior research in seed mix selection has shown that using over 20% PRG may make it difficult for KBG to get a foothold early on.
> 
> https://turf.purdue.edu/how-much-perennial-ryegrass-kentucky-bluegrass-in-a-mix-3/
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliment! The fine fescue that survived the overseed let me down again this summer, I'm so over it lol.

I would consider my overseed a bit of a hybrid as I definitely over-did-it as a test run on a reno sans the full glypho. And because of the shade on the front of my lawn I wasn't sure what would work and wouldn't.

My goal was to thicken the lawn to improve the look of it, and to help is survive summer better. It was mostly a success. My next goal now that I know what I'm doing is to reno it properly one day when I can do it properly. Learned I'm going to need a true northern mix of KBG, FF, PRG based on the different shade/sun spots and going to need a lot of topsoil.

What is your goal? Also, to g-man's plan which is a lot less back breaking work, it's a hell of a lot easier to overseed FF into KBG in shady areas where it is thin than the other way around 

Food for thought anyways


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

You want FF? Why?


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

Other than wanting to brown out early in the summer, in my experience it's not been a terrible stand of grass. I've been slinging fert on it for four years and it really has come a long way, especially after switching over to a mostly liquid plan this year.

My real goal is to continue improving color and heat tolerance. I know TTTF would be one of the best choices for drought tolerance, but I'm just not into the wide blade grasses or sure it would mix well with FF, So KBG is my next best choice. The spots I reseeded from the landscaping damage this spring look great, and they're not even elite cultivars. So I'd like to continue down the path of a mixed stand of grass. If it comes up and mixes well, then the best will survive in each particular situation.

I also have stories from a friend of mine (fellow nut) who nuked his yard for midnight KBG and all I heard from him last year was how he had to spray anti-fungal down on top of his regular routine for months to keep it looking decent. I'd rather have a couple of grass types in place that look good, but don't have to be babysat constantly. I'm willing to put the work in this fall and this spring to give it the best chance it can to take root, but I would prefer to have a bit of something that's used to the growing conditions and has survived over a decade in that location if the new cultivars won't make it.


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

I'm with @g-man on this one. I've tried very hard over the past 2 years to get my FF to be denser and fuller. It just isn't meant to do so, and seems to be far more suited for ornamental and low maintenance applications as compared to a serious turf quality grass. Apart from aiding in diversity to support the other cultivars, it just kind of sucks.


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

I'll readily admit I could have the wool pulled over my eyes on this one, as it's all i've known. Maybe a bit of stockholm syndrome with the FF?

Or maybe it isn't really FF if it's behaving better than usual? This is one of the better photos I have of a sample of my lawn. You can see a light dappling of KBG that's been in the mix since original install back in 2007 when the house was built.



Closer view


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## BrainBailey (Nov 20, 2019)

jephil08 said:


> I'll readily admit I could have the wool pulled over my eyes on this one, as it's all i've known. Maybe a bit of stockholm syndrome with the FF?
> 
> Or maybe it isn't really FF if it's behaving better than usual? This is one of the better photos I have of a sample of my lawn. You can see a light dappling of KBG that's been in the mix since original install back in 2007 when the house was built.


Looks like FF to me, and way thicker than mine! Nice. Do you have a lot of shade? My problem is I have lots of direct sun, plus I like to stay 2 inches and under on height. If you like a very tall look, it's not a bad grass, so I probably made a bad assumption in my previous post.

Also, if you do like taller grass, that looks pretty healthy and thick. Why bother trying to push KBG in? As others have suggest, PRG might be a better option if you want more of a mix, but it looks pretty good to me (my bar is probably very low).


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

It's all full sun. House faces due north and I only have 3 trees in the 25 foot range, so there isn't a ton of shade from anything. Raised on Milo for two years until it became difficult to find, so I tried Carbon X and now GreenePunch with micronutrients. Now you can see why I don't necessarily HATE it. HOC is usually 2.75"-3.25". I'm just now starting to get some good color, but not surprisingly when I add some KBG into the mix it starts to show off.

Not a fan of reel mowing, personally. I enjoy my mow, but that personally looks like too much extra work for me on top of what I already do in the lawn. I've got too many other projects and interests to stick purely to grass only.  Probably blasphemy around here, I know...


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The area by the swing set is FF vs KBG in the front. I'm a few miles south from you.

FF is a good low maint grass. It looks brown in summer but it returns.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

It's totally your lawn and I encourage you to do what's best for you!

But I can't hold back, I literally hate every second of having a dominant amount of FF. Ask @davegravy about how much he loves his too.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

Ps this is my reoccurring heartbreak with FF, year after year (and tear after tear) :

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=307291#p307291


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## jephil08 (Aug 3, 2020)

@Kaba I do feel your pain with the summer temps. I too put in an above-ground irrigation setup using PGP ultras just around the perimeter of the house to help keep up with watering. It seems to have helped some, but I noticed once we cooled down for a few days back in the 70s it was doing much better. Now that it's going back up to high 80s for a few days I'm noticing a little less color.

BUT I've also started dropping my mowing height (down to 2.25 now), so I'm also seeing more of the brown that's leftover from dieoff earlier in the summer. Since I plan on scalping/spraying/seeding somewhere around the 11th (should get back in the low 80s after this weekend), I figured cutting off an inch or so would be easier to work with than trying to take it from 3" down to 1. My Timemaster might not handle that much grass at once. I love my mower, but it can definitely get bogged down if its taking too much off at once.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

That is a very good plan for an overseed , makes it much easier to get soil contact and apply Peat etc and shocks the grass. I did mine in 3 steps in one afternoon :

1- mow to 1 setting above final HOC
2- dethatch prep and scarify 
3- mow to final desired HOC with bag to clean up from the dethatch

It worked well in the sense I had a lot less raking to do


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