# To NUKE or OVERSEED, that is the question



## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Torn about what to do.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Neither. Fall Nitrogen Blitz.

I dont see anything there that I would reno or overseed.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

I agree. No real weeds, just mildly thin grass. If you haven't already had a soil test done I would start there and make adjustments accordingly. Otherwise, throw the nitrogen to it and let it fill in.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Thank you, my gut was telling me to keep it. I did throw down stata fert and milo just before the few days of heavy rains. From what I can tell the lawn is 98% PRG / fescue, with a little to no KBG. I'm thinking of at least spreading a trirye mix down to help give the lawn a fight.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Soil test is priority. With all those trees soil may be rather acidic.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> I agree. No real weeds, just mildly thin grass. If you haven't already had a soil test done I would start there and make adjustments accordingly. Otherwise, throw the nitrogen to it and let it fill in.


Lawn is 98% PRG. It will not fill in. If it's a small area, I would renovate. Large, overseed. If the area is not getting enough sun, consider a fine fescue (chewings, red). Some TTTF is also shade tolerant.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

maynardGkeynes said:


> ForsheeMS said:
> 
> 
> > I agree. No real weeds, just mildly thin grass. If you haven't already had a soil test done I would start there and make adjustments accordingly. Otherwise, throw the nitrogen to it and let it fill in.
> ...


Yes, now that we know the whole story there will be no filling in with rye or fescue. With that in mind I would definitely overseed.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Ok complete history. 
Lawn age: 40 years 
Prior care : mild to poor
Zone : 6b 
Location: Northern Central Mass
Grass type PGR/Fescue
PH TEST on 9/1/18 both front and rear lawn = 7.0 which was a shock as the lawn is surrounded by 14 large oaks. 
N-P-K TESTed 9/1/18 all 0 which was no shock.
FRONT and REAR LAWN
Staying with PGR/fescue as rear lawn is 80% shade. TTTF is nice but I would prefer to kill and start fresh.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Here is the grass seed I picked up tonight. Yes, I see the test date was in 2017. I'm not worried about it. However, I'm not into the big box stores with coated seed and paying for more of the coating then the seed. I also prefer the mom and pop farm supply store near my house. It's much easier for me to grab stuff there.


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Where was the soil test done? N doesn't really mean anything as is constantly changes but P and K being zero I think is impossible. Nothing would be growing there. Also, oak trees have nothing to do with pH but 7.0 is not bad at all.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

ForsheeMS said:


> ... but P and K being zero I think is impossible. Nothing would be growing there.


Are you sure you didn't take the sample from your kid's sandbox?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would not use that seed unless it is heavy shade. It is 60% fine fescues that don't do too good in the sun.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

@ForsheeMS ok maybe I wasn't 3-4" deep for a soil sample. I'll get another and send it off to UMASS Amherst soil lab.

@g-man the pictures of my lawn were from today at 11:15. My back yard is mainly shade with a lot of of moving sunshine. Check out my tree canopy, I live in the woods.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

Neither PRG nor KBG will do well with so little sun. You were sold a sun and shade blend, but you need a deep shade blend in the rear yard. Fine fescue should work, perhaps with some TTTF. You will never have a good lawn in the rear with KBG and PRG.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

That should be a great mix for shade. The fine fescue will do prertty well in the shade even though it's the common type, and the PR will likely thin out over time (years), but that's OK. And those PR cultivars are top notch, elite cultivars...better rated than the legendary Fiesta 4. Only problem is they are super dark green and the common Boreal CRF is light green. I know because I have both ASP cultivars and common CRF in my lawn. But for shade performance you don't really have a choice...fine fescue is the way to go when other types struggle. The PR won't be quite as dark green in the shade as in the sun, though.

You can also use this mix in the sunny areas, where the PR will dominate and be super dark green. The fine fescue will help with blending into the existing lawn, and will add a degree of drought tolerance (but not heat tolerance).

Not every seed mix needs to be TTTF/KBG...even though it's my favorite mix personally...there are uses for other mixes...such as deep shade or overseeding mixed lawns that don't have much KBG or Tall Fescue in them to start with. A 40 year old fine fescue lawn with some PR in it is not the best candidate for overseeding with TTTF, I totally agree with you...unless you're prepared to fight and overseed repeatedly a few times over the years...it simply won't match just doing it once.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

@maynardGkeynes A sun and shade mix will have high amounts of PRG with fescue second and a touch of KBG.

@Green totally agree.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

Jdaniel611 said:


> @maynardGkeynes A sun and shade mix will have high amounts of PRG with fescue second and a touch of KBG.


I believe you, but this mix has nearly 40% PRG and KBG by weight (and probably more by seed count) which seems too high for yard that is 80% shade. They will not do well, and weak grass is disease prone, which could spread to the otherwise healthy fescues. The best mix would be a fine fescue and TTTF. It's been a while since I looked, but I think that's what Scott's and Pennington are doing now with their dense shade mixes. If it were me, I would exchange this for a shade mix, and then buy a small bag of PRG/KBG for the mostly sunny areas, if any.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

This mix is like a 37% PR and 63% FF mix. A couple of things...

-In conditions intermediate between sun and shade, one might expect such a mix to result in roughly 50/50 PR/FF in the lawn, since even though the seed size is simikar, the PR is more aggressive and establishes faster.

-Speaking from personal experience with ASP1001GL, 6001, 6003, 6004, etc. (Which your cultivars are derived from) these are spreading PR varieties, even though they're not advertised as such. I've nuked small spots and them spread to fill in a few months later. It's not as fast as KBG, but about half the rate.

-Mine did decently in partial shade, and didn't thin out for a few years. Even then, it didn't thin that much. It was cold Winter and hot Summer temps that killed some of it. PR is a short lived perennial grass. It's not expected to last 30+ years like KBG, TTTF, or FF. If it did in your lawn, that's amazing, but it's not expected, even under best conditions.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

Green said:


> This mix is like a 37% PR and 63% FF mix.


Also 4.9% KBG "Wildhorse,"


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## bklusa1 (May 18, 2018)

Green said:


> Not every seed mix needs to be TTTF/KBG...even though it's my favorite mix personally...there are uses for other mixes...such as deep shade or overseeding mixed lawns that don't have much KBG or Tall Fescue in them to start with. A 40 year old fine fescue lawn with some PR in it is not the best candidate for overseeding with TTTF, I totally agree with you...unless you're prepared to fight and overseed repeatedly a few times over the years...it simply won't match just doing it once.


What if you initially did the yard with a sun and shade scotts mix last year (new construction), if you went TTTF this year moving forward (a lot of direct sun back there, couple areas of the sun/shade mix didn't do too well over summer) would it match up ok?


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

bklusa1 said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Not every seed mix needs to be TTTF/KBG...even though it's my favorite mix personally...there are uses for other mixes...such as deep shade or overseeding mixed lawns that don't have much KBG or Tall Fescue in them to start with. A 40 year old fine fescue lawn with some PR in it is not the best candidate for overseeding with TTTF, I totally agree with you...unless you're prepared to fight and overseed repeatedly a few times over the years...it simply won't match just doing it once.
> ...


The Scott's sun & shade is fine fescue, PRG, and KBG. The TTTF blades might stick out as being wider if overseeded in those areas. I don't know why the direct sun areas didn't do well, as both PRG and KBG like sun. The fescue would thin out, and be taken over by the KBG -- in theory anyway.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Well, let's all take the ride down this path and see how this yard turns out. I cut lower and over seeded the lawn this morning. Now it's time to water, pray and get the popcorn ready for the show.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

bklusa1 said:


> What if you initially did the yard with a sun and shade scotts mix last year (new construction), if you went TTTF this year moving forward (a lot of direct sun back there, couple areas of the sun/shade mix didn't do too well over summer) would it match up ok?


That's basically what I did, but it took about 3 overseeds to get the mix right after that. I did one every 2 or 3 years.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Jdaniel611 said:


> Well, let's all take the ride down this path and see how this yard turns out. I cut lower and over seeded the lawn this morning. Now it's time to water, pray and get the popcorn ready for the show.


I bet it'll work out great.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Well I cut short and overseeded. Some of the areas took in great and some areas just seem to be a bit slower. Only time will tell now.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Updates photos of back yard.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

Looks like it's time for some nitrogen. Can you find urea in your area?

@g-man @Delmarva Keith @Green what do you think?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I would give it water first. It looks very dry.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

What are you cutting at -- looks pretty short.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Jconnelly6b said:


> Looks like it's time for some nitrogen. Can you find urea in your area?
> 
> @g-man @Delmarva Keith @Green what do you think?


I've kind of lost track here. Did you ever get the soil test done?

I don't use straight urea. If I did I'd get it at the Southern States coop. Any farm supply will have plenty. Ammonium sulfate isn't really any more expensive. Around 11 or 12 bucks for 50#. The sulfer content of ammonium sulfate is said to be beneficial in slightly alkaline soils, which is what we have a lot of here (but that seems to be disputed by the chemists- whatevs). I only use blends anyway unless P and/or K are already excessive (which is rare in the low CEC soils here).

Some redeveloped farms have P off the charts from eons of manure and poultry litter but other than that, it usually needs some P and K. I generally only apply P with the Fall regimen - P runoff into the bays is a problem here and the Spring algae blooms can get impressive after Spring "monsoons."


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

@Jconnelly6b I do have urea but have held off on applying it since I was letting the new growth come in and didn't want to burn new roots.



@g-man 
We had 3-4 days of rain, the 10th through tge 13th last week and will see 1-3inches of rain tonight. I was thinking this would be a good time for 1/2lb N.

@maynardGkeynes I cut at 2-1/2inches on Thursday (bagged) due to wet grass and then to 2inches on Sunday.

This is the beltway I killed, added topsoil and cow compost, seeded and cover in peat moss watered twice a day.



@g-man This is the area that looks dry. I believe from being bare with an exposed layer of thatch.





An area I use as a guide for new growth and what height it's at in the lawn.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

Here are my thoughts. I should have aerated, maybe thatched, but the yard is mainly bare, top dressed with fine top screened top soil/compost mix from farm, raked in, pulled my plastic pallet to level, seeded and covered with peat moss then watered.. lazy me cut low, metal raked soil and broad cast seeded and added started fert 5 days later.

Soil test is in waiting on results.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

0.5lb of N to a newly seeded lawn it too much. Target 0.25lb of N.

How are you keeping the soil moist? In your images it doesnt show that you are watering the new seeds. You should be doing 3-5 times per day to keep the soil moist.


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## maynardGkeynes (May 23, 2017)

I'm not sure what your opinion is right now about the lawn. For some people, what you have would be fine. If it were me, I think I would put down some PRG in the thin areas, just to get some coverage. I agree with with an earlier post suggesting that your blend is too heavily weighed to fine fescue. A lot of your lawn is not all that shady.

FWIW, if you ever do complete renovation, I would try straight TTTF, which has good tolerance for both sun and shade. It's not as pretty as PRG or KBG, but it can still make a very handsome lawn. I think might be a good solution for your "terroir," which is a mixture of sunny and shady. You could throw in a small amount of KBG (under 5% by weight) to see if you can get some spreading.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

@g-man I was watering the back yard on a timer to run 15 minutes every 12 hours for the first 14-18 days as this area only sees sun in the mid morning to early afternoon. Once past about 1 pm due to the low sun angle I see mostly shade. The front little area was on a timer to run 15 minutes, every 6 hours.


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## Jdaniel611 (Aug 12, 2018)

This is 2pm sun


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