# My lawn has chicken pox



## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

So a week ago my lawn and I were getting along great. I dropped the height of cut from 3.5 to 3 inches, she was nice and green and happy. Then I added .63 # of N from Carbon X four days ago and now she looks terrible. Spots everywhere. See pics:


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## ForsheeMS (May 21, 2018)

Definitely a fungus. Looks like dollar spot to me.


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

That looks like summer patch. @Pete1313 had a couple areas of SP in his lawn recently. He would be better able to identify if it looked similar to what he was dealing with and how best to treat it.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

My last Propoconizole app was July 27. I was moving toward fert (none since mid-June) and away from fungicides. I've had dollar spot in areas before, but not everywhere all at once before. Needless to say, I took a sick day at work because a family member is ill.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

That doesnt look like what I'm dealing with, and you can check Here to compare with summer patch.

Question, when you applied the fertilizer was the grass wet/have dew on it?


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

The lawn was wet, and then it rained after (maybe an hour or so later).


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Carbon X has a high percentage of quick release N from the urea/ammonium sulfate prill. Just a thought that it could be fertilizer burn if the prill stuck to the wet grass blades instead of reaching the soil. It does look really uniform.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

That is my original thought as well. Mostly because it came on so quick and it is everywhere. If we assume fertilizer burn, is there anything I can do? I put down my fall pre-M about 3 weeks ago now, so overseeding now is going to be a problem.

(Nice to know my fert applications have been uniform).


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Sorry about the off advice there @bosox_5. The first image did look like fungus to me but I think I was too quick to jump to a conclusion of SP.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

No problem. Fungus is always on the table. That's why posting here is great. What is obvious to one person, is totally different to someone else.


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

Hello, Dollar Spot! Good thing you got the CX down to help you grow out of it. No more propiconazole for now as it has growth regulating properties. The looking cool spell in your weather and the AMS in CX should help keep it at bay for now.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Here is a progression. 11am everyday from Saturday to today

8/21


8/20



8/19



8/18


8/17 (Right before the CX went down)


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## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

Looks like the problem was already there on the 8/17 photo.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

ugh, looks like the pictures are all out of order. I'll fix them


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

7am pictures might be better than 11am to see the dollar spot mycelium. I've been having constant DS issues this week.

Also, AMS burn can happen, but you will see it immediately and more likely in greens hoc. The grass has to be somewhat wet for the prills to stick to the leaves or large prills into a thick canopy (greens hoc) that don't fall into the soil.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

I can say there has been no mycelium on any day (at least none that I could find before work)


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

@bosox_5 I don't think it was fert burn... to me, looking at it, the issue was clearly there on 8/17 but it was in it's infancy. You can see it all around the deck area, it looks like it's spreading from the deck outward.

It's possible that it's dollar spot but honestly, I don't think so, especially not with you saying you haven't seen any mycelium. Looking at how it's spreading and how rapidly it appears to be, I'm thinking armyworms. Armyworms tend to be incredibly fast and they're really good at hiding during the heat of the day. Usually you'll see birds in the area looking for them in the early am/dusk.

The best test for armyworms (or chinch bugs which are another possibility this time of year) is to get a coffee can (wider the better really) and cut the top and bottom out of it. Push it like 2-3" into your turf in an area near the outside of that spreading ring of the brown area. Pour some dish soap into can and fill it with water and wait like 5 minutes. Ideally do this nearer to dusk as the sun is going down. If that's what it is, you should see these little caterpillars float to the top of the water. But the way it's spreading and how aggressively it's spreading leads me to think that over fungus.

Edit - Forgot to add, the fact that it seems to be spreading out from the deck area is even more proof of it likely being armyworms. As they need a hard surface to plant their eggs on, if you look around the outside of your deck I bet you'd be able to spot them possibly... they lay them out in a really tight grid pattern, they almost look like little beads together like this (note: this photo is zoomed in they're much much smaller, each egg is like the size of the tip of a needle).


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

So it looks like it spread from the deck just because the security camera and the angle. It did the same thing on both side yards and the front, all at the same time (but I don't have cameras to show there). I also spray Bifen every 30 days or so. I will do a bug check tonight, but the turf doesn't pull out easy.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Front yard, 8/17 and today


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

bosox_5 said:


> So it looks like it spread from the deck just because the security camera and the angle. It did the same thing on both side yards and the front, all at the same time (but I don't have cameras to show there). I also spray Bifen every 30 days or so. I will do a bug check tonight, but the turf doesn't pull out easy.


The angle could be the issue, looking at the front yard photo it's pretty similar in the sense that you can clearly see the areas that are brown now were hazy on the 8/17 photos.

As for Bifen, my understanding on Bifen is that it really needs to be on the leaf surface ideally for like 12-24 hours to actually provide control for Armyworms. If you water it in or apply it near rain etc. it will control them but not eradicate them.

Lastly, the turf wouldn't pull away easy. Armyworms (and chinch bugs) are surface feeders, not root feeders. They live/sleep in the thatch during the day and then at night rise up and eat the leaf of the plant. They don't eat the roots, therefore the turf wouldn't pull away like a carpet similar to grubworms, which are root eaters.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

I'm due for another Bifen app anyway, so I'll probably hit it tomorrow (rain tonight). In the meantime I can try the coffee can test. Either way, I don't know there is a lot I can do in the short term. The Carbon X was round one of the blitz, so now I am terrified of going straight Urea in a week. Might try a round of Milo or some other organic stuff first. Thank you all for the suggestions, seems like we hit all the possibilities (fert burn, fungus, bugs).


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

bosox_5 said:


> I'm due for another Bifen app anyway, so I'll probably hit it tomorrow (rain tonight). In the meantime I can try the coffee can test. Either way, I don't know there is a lot I can do in the short term. The Carbon X was round one of the blitz, so now I am terrified of going straight Urea in a week. Might try a round of Milo or some other organic stuff first. Thank you all for the suggestions, seems like we hit all the possibilities (fert burn, fungus, bugs).


Yeah the approach going forward will largely depend on if you can determine for sure what the offender actually is... if it IS armyworms, it's a pretty simple fix. Kill the armyworms (even if it means a couple bifen treatments) and put the turf with nitrogen. The one nice part of armyworms, similar to chinch bugs is that they just eat the green, the plant itself isn't usually harmed, so you can in theory water and fert and especially with KBG, recover from them. Where as grubs eat the entire root system and actually kill the plant.

If it's fungus, same thing, deal w/ the fungus then once it's seemingly under control, start pushing it with Nitrogen again to force that KBG to grow and spread.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

no bugs in the coffee can test. So it looks like it is either fert burn or dollar spot. I think the cure for both is a crap ton on Nitrogen all fall


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Quick update. It is fert burn. I wrote into the LCN website and Mr. Hane reached out to me personally about my issue. Basically nothing to do but water, but I thought it was amazing that he was willing to go back and forth with me to figure out a game plan. So while I am not thrilled that the CX burned the crap out of my lawn, I have to say it is impressive to see a vendor stand by their product like that.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Thanks for posting an update. Try and post some pics of the recovery in a couple weeks as well. :thumbsup:


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

I will. Cooler temps are on the way. This was going to be my first nitrogen blitz with urea, but now I am worried about burning the lawn again


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Apply when grass is dry and then water in after.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

^ +1 Dry grass is important. I have a very small burn from my last urea app - there was a gentle pop up shower about an hour after my app. Not enough to dissolve the Urea.

Set the spreader setting low and make multiple passes to make sure you aren't spreading too much in one spot.

You'll be fine. Get back on that horse and fertilize!


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## beardizzle1 (Jun 13, 2019)

bosox_5 said:


> Quick update. It is fert burn. I wrote into the LCN website and Mr. Hane reached out to me personally about my issue. Basically nothing to do but water, but I thought it was amazing that he was willing to go back and forth with me to figure out a game plan. So while I am not thrilled that the CX burned the crap out of my lawn, I have to say it is impressive to see a vendor stand by their product like that.


This is awesome to hear. I actually got into lawn care by watching LCN's YouTube channel and now listening to his podcast. I've actually written to him in email before about a question and he's responded. I personally think he truly cares about his consumers and the products he "pushes" and doesn't simply do it for the dollar, although that's a plus. He wouldn't stand behind a product if he didn't personally believe in it IMO. Of course there are cheaper options other than the N-Ext products he sells, but buying individual products and mixing yourself isn't for everyone and their abilities.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

Why would you guys buy carbonx? It's some product a couple of guys came up with and push with youtube marketing, and you guys eat it all up like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

What is wrong with the tested products already on the market today? You know the ones that are backed with an unconditional money back guarantee....

I'll come up with a product tonight and see if I can get some youtubers to push it in their videos cuz I'm a nice guy.

You can literally mix Milorganite and some scotts fertilizer (green bag) and you'd have something similar. Stop falling for these nonsense products. If you want to improve your lawn spend more time on mowing rather than finding the latest "magic product"

Do we know the burn is from carbonx? It likely is. If you are using bifen I would rule out the bugs issue. It looks burnt to me and since carbonx is not homogenous like scotts products you can't be sure what part of it is going where in your spreader. Like I said, you guys can mix some milorganite and urea if you really want to and spread it. We'll call it Nitros--t. Let me see if I can find a youtube channel to push my new product called Nitros--t.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

beardizzle1 said:


> bosox_5 said:
> 
> 
> > Quick update. It is fert burn. I wrote into the LCN website and Mr. Hane reached out to me personally about my issue. Basically nothing to do but water, but I thought it was amazing that he was willing to go back and forth with me to figure out a game plan. So while I am not thrilled that the CX burned the crap out of my lawn, I have to say it is impressive to see a vendor stand by their product like that.
> ...


LCN knows them personally, so I wouldn't be so sure. I think his intentions are good but there is a conflict of interest when you hang out with the creators of the product. How can you give an objective review of it when you are drinking and fishing with the creators of it?


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

bosox_5 said:


> Quick update. It is fert burn. I wrote into the LCN website and Mr. Hane reached out to me personally about my issue. Basically nothing to do but water, but I thought it was amazing that he was willing to go back and forth with me to figure out a game plan. So while I am not thrilled that the CX burned the crap out of my lawn, I have to say it is impressive to see a vendor stand by their product like that.


Imagine how many people will burn their lawns if they sell millions of bags of carbonx. Does this happen with products at the big box stores. Mostly no. That's why they use slow release coated nitrogen. Why?????? Because they want to make it idiot proof. There were too many people who had burnt spots in their lawn, they want their customers to be happy and not ruin the property. What if you had a BBQ planned soon?

Imagine someone used a product and burnt their lawn now they are getting fines from their HOA. Not worth it.

I mean this in the nicest way and I don't know how else to say this but... you are a dummy if you continue to use their product after the disaster it just caused you. I know I would cry if that happened to me because I just redid my entire front lawn with KBG.


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## beardizzle1 (Jun 13, 2019)

john5246 said:


> bosox_5 said:
> 
> 
> > Quick update. It is fert burn. I wrote into the LCN website and Mr. Hane reached out to me personally about my issue. Basically nothing to do but water, but I thought it was amazing that he was willing to go back and forth with me to figure out a game plan. So while I am not thrilled that the CX burned the crap out of my lawn, I have to say it is impressive to see a vendor stand by their product like that.
> ...


 :lol: rant over? :roll:


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## beardizzle1 (Jun 13, 2019)

I think your thinking too far into the drinking and fishing together.. in ALL businesses there's drinking, fishing, and golfing together. You don't think the execs at TruGreen are going out with the execs at whatever chemical manufacturer they use? You don't think the execs at Scott's aren't entertaining the execs that sell their products. The sales channel is just different, one is showing you everything (even using the products they're selling on their on home lawns) and the other is behind a big box store.

Just because he got burn spots does not mean it was simply the product alone. Did the individual not read the application label and mess something up there? It happens.

To think if you throw milorganite and Scott's together you get an equivalent product to CX, I think you're missing the mark on CX.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Discussion and debate is welcomed on TLF. Personal attacks are not.


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## ChrisVoit (Jun 17, 2018)

john5246 said:


> Why would you guys buy carbonx? It's some product a couple of guys came up with and push with youtube marketing, and you guys eat it all up like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
> 
> What is wrong with the tested products already on the market today? You know the ones that are backed with an unconditional money back guarantee....
> 
> ...


Keep researching fertilizer conspiracy theories. Most Scott's products are 50% limestone filler, hardly homogenous if there are 5 x different looking prills in the bag. CarbonX is homogenous product with only 2 prills ( screaming green has 6 - not **** either ). Anyways, it's a pro product requiring a little more application finesse than milorganite, but the results are amazing.
I think the real conspiracy is Scott's, owned by Miracle Grow, and is the exclusive marketer and distributor of RoundUp 🔥🔥


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@john5246 I thinking it is important to understand the science behind how carbonx works. The biochar mixed with composted manure does provide an increase in yields and a effective way to provide nutrients to the soil that are trapped (not easy to leach). There are multiple studies in regards to it.

Also, did you know that Lesco is now trying to copy the product with mirimichi? Is lesco making a "non sense" product and making up the test data/images?

https://www.lesco.com/products/carbonpro


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

g-man said:


> @john5246 I thinking it is important to understand the science behind how carbonx works. The biochar mixed with composted manure does provide an increase in yields and a effective way to provide nutrients to the soil that are trapped (not easy to leach). There are multiple studies in regards to it.
> 
> Also, did you know that Lesco is now trying to copy the product with mirimichi? Is lesco making a "non sense" product and making up the test data/images?
> 
> https://www.lesco.com/products/carbonpro


Ok I will try to look more into the product, I wasn't familiar with it's exact ingredients. The fact that OP burned his lawn suggests to me that some change will have to be made toward slow-release nitrogen as fast release is not suitable for consumer use (hence why no big box store sells urea). I believe they chose fast release to keep the price of the product down which I understand

let's see if lesco makes the same mistake in what you call the "copy" of their product. It could be that two companies had similar ideas and one took longer to bring it to market because it needed more testing (because some people might burn their lawn) or it might clump. Maybe smaller pieces are needed. A lot of things need to be tested and refined before a product is suitable for release to consumers. Cutting corners leads to disasters like OP had and I also saw Grass daddy on Youtube with the same issue.


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## john5246 (Jul 21, 2019)

ChrisVoit said:


> john5246 said:
> 
> 
> > Why would you guys buy carbonx? It's some product a couple of guys came up with and push with youtube marketing, and you guys eat it all up like it's the best thing since sliced bread.
> ...


I've used their products for 20yrs, if even the slightest thing goes wrong whether it's my fault or the products fault they will refund it no questions asked. They stand behind their product 100%. I'm not trying to shill for scotts but they make good products at a reasonable price that are almost idiot proof.

I didn't know they used limestone filler. I don't think they mean each prill is 100% NPK but by homogeneous each prill has some NPK in it.

On a side note I used the Starter fert + weed preventer which had some blue colored things in it, not sure if that's the "tenacity" mesotrione pre-emergent.


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

I tried really hard not to get involved in this thread, but I can't help it at this point.

In relation to the chicken pox, the freckling, in my opinion, is from fertilizer applied to wet grass where the homogeneous urea/ammonium sulfate prills adhered to the leaf surface. While in some instances this does not cause issues, it can in others. Particularly if it was fertilized recently, say within two weeks of the carbon x application.

The information that is left out is that this product was applied 10 DAYS PRIOR to carbon x:



also, per the applicator private notes, it was also applied to a _really wet lawn._

urea+ denitrification inhibitor + potassium chloride = very high salt index stuck to the leaves.



10 days later, carbon x applied to a _really wet lawn_

urea/ams (https://www.yara.us/crop-nutrition/fertilizer-products/yaravera/yaravera-amidas-40-0-0/) = high salt index stuck to the leaves

it was a compounding issue of fertilizer on top of fertilizer, both stuck to the leaves.

Never would have I ever recommended two urea applications ten days apart applied to wet grass.

And to @john5246



> Imagine how many people will burn their lawns if they sell millions of bags of carbonx. Does this happen with products at the big box stores. Mostly no. That's why they use slow release coated nitrogen. Why?????? Because they want to make it idiot proof. There were too many people who had burnt spots in their lawn, they want their customers to be happy and not ruin the property. What if you had a BBQ planned soon?


We have sold well in excess of a million bags. This is the second time we've seen someone freckle their lawn with "millions of bags" out in the marketplace.

There is nothing wrong with tested products on the market. We are a tested product on the market. We do not push it on YouTube marketing. Allyn and Pete push it on YouTube because that's how they market to their market. In fact, it was never our intent to put our products into the DIY market. Allyn was the one who convinced us to let him bring it to DIY. We didn't want it there because of the potential for inexperienced applicators to do things like freckle their lawn, or even burn it up. But Allyn guaranteed us that he would handle support after the sale - and clearly he does an amazing job at it. Our primary market is professional lawn care. DIY just happened because Allyn sees the value in our product.

I don't know what your experience is, but I can shed a little on mine. I'm an 11 year turf manager with a B.S. in Plant Science/Turfgrass Management from University of Tennessee. I am one class shy of a minor in Mathematics. I caught the start up bug when I earned a contract to build a 9 hole golf course and practice facility, starting with 76 acres of forest, while a sophomore in college. When the economy crashed, the investor for the project pulled out after we had completed 3 holes and a driving range. I was forced into residential lawn care, but immediately fell in love. I managed residential turf from Little Rock, Arkansas, to North Mississippi, to Huntsville, to Birmingham, to Augusta, and finally to Knoxville. I was part of a team that helped grow a lawn care company from $8mil to $12mil in 4 years across 4 markets. I may be new to fertilizer manufacturing, but I have had a successful career in turfgrass. It's what allowed me to to find the money to build a manufacturing plant to produce our own unique formulation of fertilizers.

I love your comparison between milorganite and urea or Scott's (green bag[is this a technical term?]). I especially love it because in no way shape or form is it even remotely close to what we do. The oversimplification is a testament to your personal views of me as a person vs your understanding of what is taking place scientifically. As @beardizzle1 said,


> To think if you throw milorganite and Scott's together you get an equivalent product to CX, I think you're missing the mark...


Also, Scotts does not offer homogeneous fertilizers. Lebanon turf is their primary manufacturer who provides the raw materials that are blended into their homeowner products.

We do know LCN personally now. In fact, when you saw that video while we were down their fishing, we had a long heart to heart because we want to pull our material from DIY. But the overwhelming feedback of positive support he receives, encouraged him to invite us down to come up with creative solutions to keep our products available to homeowners. If you took just a few seconds to analyze the timestamps of his video that included a review of the product vs while we were on a fishing boat, you'd see they were many weeks apart. Also, 16 weeks after application, you could still see the line of Carbon X in his side lawn. Not bad.

To sum this up, I believe you have some personal issue with me, seeming as you've taken this much time to spread fear and shade. And that's perfectly ok. You don't have to like me, our product, or what we stand for in the industry. Our goal is to provide professionals with an alternative product that is not 60+% filler in a bag. Our goal is to provide professionals with an alternative product that takes the positives of many different products I've used across my career, and homogenize them into a series of heavy hitting, highly performing fertilizers. Our goal is to offer a unique delivery method that does not require micro-plastics, formaldehyde, or biology blockers. If you ever find yourself in Kentucky, please reach out to me. I'd love to give you a tour of the plant and share our long term vision.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

Ok. My turn. I put down 1.3lb per 1000 10 days before for a preemergent. Only .25 lb of N. Also want to say that while it did get applied to a wet lawn, it also got watered in within a few hours. I also want to say that I never blamed the product, I just wanted to know what to do to help the lawn get back. While I am not happy with the results of the CX application, I accept that I am a homeowner who can make mistakes (which is part of the fun) and was very happy with the response from both Mr. Hane and Mr. Martin. As for why to by CX? I thought it would be cool to try. It's a lawn, it will grow back. I'm the guy who puts an ice rink on the back yard every winter and it always recovers by April. I am going to try straight urea in a couple of weeks, if I roast the lawn again oh well. Live and learn


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

thegrassfactor said:


> Also, Scotts does not offer homogeneous fertilizers. Lebanon turf is their primary manufacturer who provides the raw materials that are blended into their homeowner products.


Very informative. That answers a long-standing question I and others have had...what's the relationship between Scotts and Lebanon, and why do they have absolutely identical Starter w/Meso products on the market now? Clearly, there must have been some legal agreement that, after some time went by (2016?), allowed Lebanon to brand bags with their name.

Sorry for the off-topic nature of this post, but I'm making historical note of it in case anyone punches in certain search terms in the future.


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## bosox_5 (Jun 20, 2018)

8/29. Been watering every other day. I don't have irrigation so I have to drag the hoses around (also, it has been raining)


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## thegrassfactor (Apr 12, 2017)

Green said:


> thegrassfactor said:
> 
> 
> > Also, Scotts does not offer homogeneous fertilizers. Lebanon turf is their primary manufacturer who provides the raw materials that are blended into their homeowner products.
> ...


I'm assuming the relationship looks like this - scotts contacts the largest manufacturers/blenders (simplot, andersons, nutrien, etc) in the country and says, "please provide bids for 100k tons of x,y, and z skus packaged in our packaging"


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