# Lovin me some TTTF & KBG



## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

I have to admit I love the look of these 2 grasses mixed. Just thought Id share my fresh mow of my tttf kbg reno thats about 16 days old. Its so funny how much fuller it is already than parts my kbg reno thats 6 weeks older. Its cut at about 2.25 inches
I used hogans tttf and kbg blends plus tttf regenerate and traverse 2


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## Powhatan (Dec 15, 2017)

Dazzling :thumbup:


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Wait, you seeded 16 days ago???

What am i doing wrong?


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Looks good! :thumbsup:


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## Greensby (Apr 23, 2018)

Wow! That looks great. I agree, TTTF+KBG is a winner. Mine is looking full as well.(not sure if it's quite as full as yours, but I'll give it 3 more days before I compare).

What rates did you use while seeding? I feel like I may have gone a bit light (5lbs/M TTTF, 1 lb/M KBG), but I think I'll be fine once the KBG starts to take off.


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## Jconnelly6b (Mar 4, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> Wait, you seeded 16 days ago???
> 
> What am i doing wrong?


I think I need to learn some more too. That's incredible for 16 days.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Greensby said:


> Wow! That looks great. I agree, TTTF+KBG is a winner. Mine is looking full as well.(not sure if it's quite as full as yours, but I'll give it 3 more days before I compare).
> 
> What rates did you use while seeding? I feel like I may have gone a bit light (5lbs/M TTTF, 1 lb/M KBG), but I think I'll be fine once the KBG starts to take off.


That is the recommended seed rate, or at least what they told me when I spoke with them at Hogans. I went a little heavier I used 1.5 pounds per 1000 on kbg and 7 per 1000 on TTTF. We might be pretty even if you have 3 days mine has takin off in the last 3-4 days. This is my second mow both with a manual reel mower.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

Ya know the more I think about this the more I wonder as to if it is even worth trying for a full kbg lawn. Having the repairability is a plus I have 2 dogs so thats what pushed me that way. Also I wanted the challenge...That being said a full kbg reno is a pain in the butt So much time waiting for it to germinate and hoping mother nature cooperates during that time. Also you have to start your reno so early in the summer so weeds are still growing strong. Also irrigation you have to water a whole lot during the hottest part of the summer (im still waiting to see what my water bill is this quarter)if your thing isnt reel mowing and having a very short HOC. Im questioning if its worth the effort. 
Dont get me wrong I think my kbg will be beautiful and its well on its way just thinking out loud here. 
Im curious what you all think about this and if you ever second guessed your full kbg reno or if you had the chance to do it over would you still do the same.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

Here's Day 20 from seeddown (15 post germination) of Traverse II, Regenerate, 4th Millenium, and a 3-way blend of Midnight, Bewitched, and Everglade @ 80/20 TTTF/KBG. Yeah. I seeded at 5.6 lb/1000 TTTF and 1.4lb KBG/1000


The dead strip next to my lot has since been reseeded with K31 in an effort to keep Bermuda back in the empty lot next door.


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## JDgreen18 (Jun 14, 2018)

drenglish said:


> Here's Day 20 from seeddown (15 post germination) of Traverse II, Regenerate, 4th Millenium, and a 3-way blend of Midnight, Bewitched, and Everglade @ 80/20 TTTF/KBG. Yeah. I seeded at 5.6 lb/1000 TTTF and 1.4lb KBG/1000
> 
> 
> The dead strip next to my lot has since been reseeded with K31 in an effort to keep Bermuda back in the empty lot next door.


Nice that looks fantastic....whats the hoc


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@JDgreen18 I think the effort is worth it, kind of...
My front yard is full kbg (except in dense shade where creeping fescue is mixed) and looks great. I literally aerated, seeded and kept it watered last fall. Looked sluggish last fall and early spring. It survived full sun and a brutal summer without irrigation. It went dormant and I was sure it was dead, but it bounced back with rain.
My backyard is Hogan tttf, spf30 hbg with a little midnight and Nuglade. I spent all my time here last fall. The kbg/hbg has dominated and I lost 60+% of the tttf this summer due to disease and heat stress.
I'm convinced that we don't need to baby the lawns as much as we think and if we are patient we can get there, aka my halfass front Reno last fall.
I like the idea of blending tttf and kbg, I'll never go straight tttf again, nothing beats the density and spreading of kbg


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> JDgreen18 I think the effort is worth it, kind of...
> My front yard is full kbg (except in dense shade where creeping fescue is mixed) and looks great. I literally aerated, seeded and kept it watered last fall. Looked sluggish last fall and early spring. It survived full sun and a brutal summer without irrigation. It went dormant and I was sure it was dead, but it bounced back with rain.
> My backyard is Hogan tttf, spf30 hbg with a little midnight and Nuglade. I spent all my time here last fall. The kbg/hbg has dominated and I lost 60+% of the tttf this summer due to disease and heat stress.
> I'm convinced that we don't need to baby the lawns as much as we think and if we are patient we can get there, aka my halfass front Reno last fall.
> I like the idea of blending tttf and kbg, I'll never go straight tttf again, nothing beats the density and spreading of kbg


would you consider your area in the transistion zone ?
I like the way this TTTF+KBG mix lushness looks.
How will the KBG look & perform in the summer in the transistion zone?


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@rockinmylawn if you were talking to me, I'm certainly in the transition zone. My kbg faired better than my tttf this summer


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@JDgreen18 In that picture, 2" for the first mow and for the next two. I recently raised it to 3", and will probably keep at 3.5" this Fall. The initial lower HOCs seemed to help with getting light in to the KBG.


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

I agree. This mix is great! It came in fast, which was a must for my reno. I think it will blend well over time. TTTF will hold up better to summer drought and winter cold than PRG, which makes up for the wider blade for me. I'm glad that the KBG will spread in and thicken up the turf as well, without needing to wait for multiple months to have a lawn. I think this mix has some merits over PRG + KBG for many parts of the country.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Damn looks awesome for 16 days. Keep up the good work!


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

Nice looking reno's @JDgreen18 and @drenglish!

Here's mine at day 31.



And my favorite spot in the yard...


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Agreed. It's a magical mixture. Also the perfect grass type for Southern CT, imho.

Now give it a year or a few, and a light dose PGR program (I'm using 1/3 of the full KBG rate on it)...it gets so green you wouldn't believe it. You'll also want to try biofungicides every few weeks. Really prevents disease outbreaks. We rarely need repeated apps of chemical fungicides in our climate, unlike the deep South...the bios do well here, with an occasional chemical app as needed here or there. We can also get away with a half inch lower cut here than they can.


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## rockinmylawn (Mar 25, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> @rockinmylawn if you were talking to me, I'm certainly in the transition zone. My kbg faired better than my tttf this summer


Glad to hear that.
Yeah my TTTF took a beating this year due to mositure, humidity & disease.

I will have to talk to Hogan's next year to try out the TTTF + KBG mix.
I just don't know enough about KBG as all we're pushed to around here by the Va. Tech extension & other so called experts is to do TTTF.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

rockinmylawn said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > @rockinmylawn if you were talking to me, I'm certainly in the transition zone. My kbg faired better than my tttf this summer
> ...


It makes sense that the extensions would do this. TTTF established much faster and requires less, you can also start later when the weather is cooler. This also cuts down on water use. 
I have found that when seeding TTTF and KBG together, the TTTF is fast to establish and you see very little KBG until late fall. The next spring you see a lot more KBG and as the TTTF withers during the summer the KBG goes dormant (if not irrigated) then excels and is evident at a much higher percentage when the conditions improve.
At this point I think of TTTF a desirable cover crop when seeding KBG.
Landscapers love TTTF also, big money aerating and seeding every year.

my .02


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

rockinmylawn said:


> probasestealer said:
> 
> 
> > @rockinmylawn if you were talking to me, I'm certainly in the transition zone. My kbg faired better than my tttf this summer
> ...


You guys in VA should be just fine with KBG, even those of you near NC. It's not _that_ far South...not even the middle of the East Coast. Your Winter temps average about 10F warmer than ours here. Your Summers have a few more consecutive days during heat and humidity streaks than we do and you have about an additional 3 weeks of growing season compared to us, split between the early Spring and late Fall, 1.5/1.5. This past Summer here was a lot like a typical VA Summer (a bit more heat and humidity than average), and KBG did just fine with irrigation and biofungicide apps, especially on the North side.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

drenglish said:


> Here's Day 20 from seeddown (15 post germination) of Traverse II, Regenerate, 4th Millenium, and a 3-way blend of Midnight, Bewitched, and Everglade @ 80/20 TTTF/KBG. Yeah. I seeded at 5.6 lb/1000 TTTF and 1.4lb KBG/1000
> 
> 
> The dead strip next to my lot has since been reseeded with K31 in an effort to keep Bermuda back in the empty lot next door.


Good lord!! That is just staggering. Staggering!! You didn't post this picture in your journal. It needs to be in your journal and on your wall inside the house. :nod:

Just to piggyback off of what @JDGreen was saying re the benefits and challenges of KBG: the weed issue was not on my radar before my grow this year-not at all. When trying your hand with KBG, you hear all about disease, patience, pouting, HOC etc; but for me, weed pressure is another primary difference in the growing process as compared to TTTF. Because it takes so long to move beyond the pout, and then another wait is required to get 2 or so mows in, your KBG stand is a sitting duck for weed invasion for any plant not controlled by mesotrione. You are left with either hand pulling (which can be impractical) or just waiting until you can use an herbicide-and by that point, weeds can really damage the 'aesthetics' of your stand.

This underscores the importance of exhaustive fallowing prior to a KBG grow. Weed invasions are less consequential for the quicker-establishing cool season cousins.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Green KBG does fine in NC. I believe if TTTF will grow, KBG and or HBG will do as well or better. My first full summer with 100% KBG in full sun was this summer and not irrigated. It went dormant but recovered (except a few spots by asphalt) looks great and is filling the voids. My "flush" happened 1-2 weeks ago.

@social port I agree with the above post. TTTF can help as a buffer/cover crop, but can persist (only a negative if you want total uniformity). In my experience, even the fast germinating KBGs (JumpStart) are slower than advertised. Sure I see germination, but it pouts for what seems like 3-5 weeks sometimes.

I'm still all in on the KBG wagon. I'm not done with TTTF, but will never use TTTF fescue alone. The exception is dense shade, I usually blend TTTF with creeping/red/chewing/hard fescues.


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## samjonester (May 13, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> Landscapers love TTTF also, big money aerating and seeding every year.


Yes, though the benifit isn't only for a single party.

Hiring someone to do an easy TTTF overseed is very low effort for the average home owner, too. It's a quick way to thicken up a yard in the fall. Much easier than figuring out the nitrogen blitz you'd need to repair KBG damage in hotter climates.


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## drenglish (Jun 22, 2018)

@samjonester @social port thanks guys  I actually will update the journal with a few updates...I've been so busy with work lately it's been rare if I get 30 minutes before sunset to go out and quickly assess the lawn areas for progress or problem.

Yeah TTTF is so stand-out here in my area, and KBG would be too. After lessons learned from last year about keeping cool season alive during summer, I think that including KBG in the mix with TTTF will definitely be a game changer for my lawn because of its ability to spread. I have about 30-40 squirrel holes that have already been dug since starting the renovation that I'm not terribly worried about because of the KBG in the mix


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> @Green KBG does fine in NC. I believe if TTTF will grow, KBG and or HBG will do as well or better. My first full summer with 100% KBG in full sun was this summer and not irrigated. It went dormant but recovered (except a few spots by asphalt) looks great and is filling the voids. My "flush" happened 1-2 weeks ago.
> 
> @social port I agree with the above post. TTTF can help as a buffer/cover crop, but can persist (only a negative if you want total uniformity). In my experience, even the fast germinating KBGs (JumpStart) are slower than advertised. Sure I see germination, but it pouts for what seems like 3-5 weeks sometimes.
> 
> I'm still all in on the KBG wagon. I'm not done with TTTF, but will never use TTTF fescue alone. The exception is dense shade, I usually blend TTTF with creeping/red/chewing/hard fescues.


Yeah, a lot of you guys have been trying KBG in NC, and the results look really good.

I'm not into pure TTTF either...I like KBG too much, and even if the spreading were comparable at some point, I'm not sure I'd do it for this reason. I like fine fescue for shade as well, or low-input use...but I had a lot of it die this year in an infrequently-irrigated area. So, I'm introducing the TTTF/HBG into the area for that reason. Normally, the FF comes back mostly by mid to late October, and almost fully by the following April. By May, the lawn is typically all filled in (by the KBG and the minor spreading of the CRF). But this year, I went into it with a damaged stand because of an accident last year with Tenacity. I think the fact that the grass didn't have 100% coverage made it more vulnerable to the heat. It was also a pretty hot Summer...a lot of days of typical NC weather as far as heat/humidity. When I raked the grass after mowing low a few weeks ago before overseeding, a lot of the roots pulled out (not just on FF, but KBG as well). Some of these areas get hammered in Winter too, as well as when it rains. If you don't have good coverage to begin with, it can get pretty bad over a year after a cold Winter and a hot Summer, and a lot of rain/flooding in between.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@Green was this your thatch rake that pulled up the roots? Or just a normal rake?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

probasestealer said:


> @Green was this your thatch rake that pulled up the roots? Or just a normal rake?


A leaf rake pulled up the roots in a few areas with no effort. So, the grass was dead (it was brown and matted).


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