# Cultivars Experiment While Overseeding - 4th Millennium, Traverse ​TTTF and Kentucky Blue Bewitched ​



## LawnSolo

I just started my overseeding project (5B Zone) doing

[*]50% 4th Millennium Tall Fescue
[*]40% Traverse 2 Tall Fescue
[*] 10% Kentucky Blue Bewitched

I thought it will be fun to see the germination timing on this. *Day 1 - Aug-20-2108*
EDIT: The black pellets you see is a little bit of Milo to spice up the germination 










Mixing the seeds before spreading 










The seeds are from PreferredSeeds site. Highly recommended.


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## Roosterchest

I have a TTTF mix from SSS that has 4th Millennium in it as well as Traverse 2. I planted about 20 seeds in a test pot and had germination in like 4 days. The sprouts are already about 2 inches tall. Good luck.


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## LawnSolo

Roosterchest said:


> I have a TTTF mix from SSS that has 4th Millennium in it as well as Traverse 2. I planted about 20 seeds in a test pot and had germination in like 4 days. The sprouts are already about 2 inches tall. Good luck.


Thanks for the reply. May I ask you how happy are you with the cultivars so far?


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## Roosterchest

Too early to tell. They are only a week old. I'd be shocked if I didn't love the TTTF. I like the wider blade and the drought/heat tolerance.


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## LawnSolo

Roosterchest said:


> Too early to tell. They are only a week old. I'd be shocked if I didn't love the TTTF. I like the wider blade and the drought/heat tolerance.


That's exactly what I'm looking for. This summer was brutal. I want something that can somewhat handle the stress


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## LawnSolo

*Day 4 - August 24*
It seems it's true, day 4 is the magic number for TTTF seeds.

It looks to me, Traverse 2 is the fastest "*Germinator*" :lol: 


















As expected, the KBG has not germinated yet. 









I overseeded all my lawn but this is the area I'm trying to fix the most as the brutal summer took a toll on my lawn.

So far no signs of germination there or in any other area.


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## probasestealer

Cool. I'll be following.


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## Shadow4478

Just curious, do you have a sprinkler system installed? I'm assuming that the affected area was much thicker & filled in. 
Just curious if it's due to lack of water as I get those spots as well, I just installed irrigation system and hoping for some improvement


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## LawnSolo

Shadow4478 said:


> Just curious, do you have a sprinkler system installed? I'm assuming that the affected area was much thicker & filled in.
> Just curious if it's due to lack of water as I get those spots as well, I just installed irrigation system and hoping for some improvement


I have sprinkler system installed and I can tell that area gets lot of water however I see somehow it gets sun most of the day and the patio bricks get really hot. I'm guessing heat of the sun won the battle. It's a year old grass and the soil it's not the greatest. Lot of clay and sand. I have been using Air-8, RGS, Milo. Humic-12, you name it. That area was beautiful and lush this Spring but summer has been brutal here in West Michigan.

Here is how it looked on Spring:









I already received $300 water bill trying to keep the grass alive.


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## drenglish

I have the same seed this time around for Fall renovations. The only difference is I have Regenerate in the TTTF mix and I'm in the transition zone. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with the individual test pots!


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## STL

Following and thanks for sharing your testing. If I were doing a mix, that'd be it!


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## LawnSolo

STL said:


> Following and thanks for sharing your testing. If I were doing a mix, that'd be it!


Thank You good sir! 

Well Day 5 the 4th. Millennium decided he is the king.

















The Traverse 2 is just chilling once it germinated


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## Jconnelly6b

Following, this is great to test the germination.

You might want to ease off the water a bit in your test jars if you want to replicate actual conditions.


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## JP900++

I have basically that same mix sitting in my laundry room. I used 4th Millennium last year to oversees and had pretty good results. I figured I'd hit the yard with it again. Traverse I haven't tried. I opted for Bedazzled KBG. I also have some Bandera hybrid to throw down. I'm debating picking up some Blue Velvet but I didn't have fantastic luck a couple seasons back. I look forward to seeing your posts since I'm a couple weeks out on my overseed.


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## LawnSolo

Jconnelly6b said:


> Following, this is great to test the germination.
> 
> You might want to ease off the water a bit in your test jars if you want to replicate actual conditions.


Good call there  I think I over did it with the water. Just wanted to see how fast they can germinate. Obviously is not what the real conditions are out there


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## LawnSolo

JP900++ said:


> I have basically that same mix sitting in my laundry room. I used 4th Millennium last year to oversees and had pretty good results. I figured I'd hit the yard with it again. Traverse I haven't tried. I opted for Bedazzled KBG. I also have some Bandera hybrid to throw down. I'm debating picking up some Blue Velvet but I didn't have fantastic luck a couple seasons back. I look forward to seeing your posts since I'm a couple weeks out on my overseed.


Nice! Let's see how much luck I get here  So far I'm impressed with the 4th. Millennium how it's taking off that quick.


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## LawnSolo

*Day 6 - Aug-26-2108*
Finally sign of germination out on the field 

Excuse some of the weeds. I had a really bad summer and didn't want to stress out the lawn with herbicides. Tenacity is in the bullpen and ready in few days :mrgreen:


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## Mozart

LawnSolo said:


> *Day 6 - Aug-26-2108*
> Finally sign of germination out on the field
> 
> Excuse some of the weeds. I had a really bad summer and didn't want to stress out the lawn with herbicides. Tenacity is in the bullpen and ready in few days :mrgreen:


Congrats! Did the bewitched ever come in? And do I see grass sprouting underground in those jars?


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## LawnSolo

No signs of bewitched yet  I did see something happening but not worth of pictures.

And Yes, there is grass sprouting at the bottom of the jars. They will probably choke 

I should mention the 4th. Millennium grass from the jar is growing like crazy and strong. Very impressed if that's what translate on the field. I will post a new picture when I get back home from work.


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## XiolaOne

I really wanted to use 4th Millennium myself this year but it was crazy expensive online and could not find any locally.


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## LawnSolo

XiolaOne said:


> I really wanted to use 4th Millennium myself this year but it was crazy expensive online and could not find any locally.


Oh I hear you! But I decided I was going to go big or go home. Hopefully I'm doing this one time in order to get my lawn going. I already see what happens when you get average builder quality seeds 

I see this as an investment thinking on keeping the lawn more healthy with better cultivars hoping to save some money in the long run...one can only dream


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## LawnSolo

*Day 8 - August 28*

Very impressed with the 4th. Millennium.
So far no germination on the KBG Bewitched


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## j4c11

Did you bury the bluegrass seed


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## iowa jim

lawnsolo: That 4th millennium is going wild, i had germination on my bewitched pot test at 6 days. I used potting soil for the test so that might make a difference.


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## Mozart

Surprised that the mix hasn't sprouted yet. From your first picture it does look like the TTTF seeds are sprinkled on top while I don't see any seeds in the jars labeled KBG and mix. Is it possible that the TTTF is outperforming due to seed depth?


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## j4c11

I had a study somewhere on my computer that said KBG seed needs either light OR 10 degree temperature swings to germinate properly. KBG seed that was in the dark and kept at constant temp had a hard time germinating. Hence my question regarding whether it was buried - I'm guessing the temperature inside is fairly constant.


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## LawnSolo

Thanks for the replies.
I did bury some (less than half inch deep) and some left on top to maximize germination. 
I did use potting soil combined with some Milo pellets 

When I applied water for the first time some seeds made it to the bottom of the jars.

I have to believe this is a user error  I'm thinking on redoing the KBG and Mixed jars. I do remember putting warm water on those 2 after reading warm water will speed up germination. It was warm to the touch but nothing that could harm anything. I wonder if lack of oxygen, overwater?

All in all the 4th. Millennium seems to be bad ***










The Traverse 2 is keeping up and continues germinating but not as fast as the 4th Mil


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## Roosterchest

Yes!! I did a test pot of SS1000 mix which has 4thM...It sprouted in 4 days. My reno that I seeded on Friday had sprouts yesterday, also day 4.


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## LawnSolo

Roosterchest said:


> Yes!! I did a test pot of SS1000 mix which has 4thM...It sprouted in 4 days. My reno that I seeded on Friday had sprouts yesterday, also day 4.


That is awesome! 4thM is really impressive. Can't wait to see how it performs on the field


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## LawnSolo

Day 11
4th. Millennium going strong


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## LawnSolo

So I decided to redo the KBG Bewitched and the Mixed one. Somehow I don't see any signs of life. I will leave the KBG for few more days to see if there is more development


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## drenglish

That 4th Millenium is growing tall fast. Looking forward to these new cultivars in my lawn! My bewitched seed germinated at day 5 by the way...did you plant yours too deep?


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## LawnSolo

It could be. Maybe too deep


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## Roosterchest

I just ordered 25lbs of 4th Millennium from SSS today. I'll use to seed my thin spots and for fall patching.


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## LawnSolo

Roosterchest said:


> I just ordered 25lbs of 4th Millennium from SSS today. I'll use to seed my thin spots and for fall patching.


You won't be disappointed :mrgreen:


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## g-man

I think there is too much water in the kbg containers.


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## LawnSolo

g-man said:


> I think there is too much water in the kbg containers.


I think you are right. I was told the first few days you want to make sure they are wet. I will cut on water and see what happens.


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## g-man

It should just be moist.


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## NewEnglander

Wow! This thread is awesome. I overseeded with 4th Millenium yesterday. If it looks like that in 11 days, I am going to be a happy clam.


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## LawnSolo

NewEnglander said:


> Wow! This thread is awesome. I overseeded with 4th Millenium yesterday. If it looks like that in 11 days, I am going to be a happy clam.


4th. Mil is awesome!









Finally the KBG is germinating after my second attempt









Mixed 4t. Mil and Traverse with KBG on the left and KBG Bewitched on the right


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## LawnSolo

Another Update 










The Mixed 4th. Mil + Traverse 2 TTTF with KBG is looking amazing.









The KBG is taking its time to grow. No wonder is so hard to grow.


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## g-man

FYI, I still think it is still too much moisture for the KBG and yes it takes for ever to get going.


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## LawnSolo

g-man said:


> FYI, I still think it is still too much moisture for the KBG and yes it takes for ever to get going.


I just happen to water them before the picture :mrgreen:

I promise I have been a good boy


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## MichiganGreen

This experiment alone is probably driving up the price haha.


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## LawnSolo

MichiganGreen said:


> This experiment alone is probably driving up the price haha.


Howdy neighbor. I think I know you from Reddit


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## MichiganGreen

haha, cool, yeah occasionally when I have some urgent issues like my ex-lawn guy coming back to spread harsh chemicals over my fresh seed....i tend to reach out in a couple places.


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## NewEnglander

I'm seeing some sprouts of 4th Millennium in my overseed. They came up surprisingly fast, 4-5 days. They still aren't all up, but I am being patient. Seems like a great seed to me, I'm excited to see it mature.

Thanks for doing this experiment!


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## LawnSolo

NewEnglander said:


> I'm seeing some sprouts of 4th Millennium in my overseed. They came up surprisingly fast, 4-5 days. They still aren't all up, but I am being patient. Seems like a great seed to me, I'm excited to see it mature.
> 
> Thanks for doing this experiment!


Nice!
I have to say. If I was to buy just one type of TTTF, it will be the 4th. Millennium hands down.


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## samjonester

LawnSolo said:


> The Mixed 4th. Mil + Traverse 2 TTTF with KBG is looking amazing.


I love the background hydrangeas in the mix pic. Looking good! 2.5 weeks since seeding the jars?


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## LawnSolo

samjonester said:


> LawnSolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Mixed 4th. Mil + Traverse 2 TTTF with KBG is looking amazing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I love the background hydrangeas in the mix pic. Looking good! 2.5 weeks since seeding the jars?
Click to expand...

Thank You! My wife's idea 

Yes, I started on Aug-20 however the KBG and the Mixed pot went terribly wrong and had to redo them. The Traverse 2 and 4th. Mil are still from Aug-20. I have to say I still see Traverse sprouting just 1 or to days ago. It seems like a slow grower but a strong and stubborn cultivar


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## LawnSolo

*September 11*










I thought it was pretty cool to see the roots going deeper


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## Mozart

The mix looks super lush. Looks like the KBG is mostly overshadowed by the TTTF. When do you plan to cut these samples?


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## LawnSolo

Should I cut it? or wait to see how it matures
Any thoughts?


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## TreyDoc

Cut it! Great thread. I'm planning for my reno next year and this is helping out immensely. Can't wait to see how it all turns out.


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## NewEnglander

Hi! Not trying to hijack the thread, but wanted to say I'm getting similar results with 4th Millennium in my overseed. This pic is about 7 days after seed down. I'm psyched, especially following your experiment!


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## MichiganGreen

For conversations sake, it clearly scores very high on germination, and looks great. Will be interesting to see how thethey all compare against the elements as well as general wear and all that good stuff.


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## LawnSolo

NewEnglander said:


> Hi! Not trying to hijack the thread, but wanted to say I'm getting similar results with 4th Millennium in my overseed. This pic is about 7 days after seed down. I'm psyched, especially following your experiment!


@NewEnglander 
@MichiganGreen

That's awesome! Please feel free to update us in this thread. The whole idea is to learn more about these cultivars 

I have to say my lawn is looking greater and fuller by the day. Hard to show a specific spots as I overseeded all over the place but I do see my lawn getting lush.


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## LawnSolo

*September 13*

Here are the babies with a haircut 

KBG Bewitched, Traverse 2, 4th. Mil and Mixed









An interesting development :thumbup: 
Initially my first attempt to germinate the Bewitched KBG was a failure. I take the blame for adding warm water and perhaps over watered as well 

However I kept the jar on the side just in case. I wanted to believe these cultivars were tough. Well, I'm not disappointed, I noticed today some seeds are germinating even though they were neglected.


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## MichiganGreen

LawnSolo said:


> *September 13*
> 
> Here are the babies with a haircut
> 
> KBG Bewitched, Traverse 2, 4th. Mil and Mixed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> An interesting development :thumbup:
> Initially my first attempt to germinate the Bewitched KBG was a failure. I take the blame for adding warm water and perhaps over watered as well
> 
> However I kept the jar on the side just in case. I wanted to believe these cultivars were tough. Well, I'm not disappointed, I noticed today some seeds are germinating even though they were neglected.


Yep this is great learning for next fall with my selections...I really appreciate this. To be clear as a test they were all seeded exactly the same? Looks like the Traverse did well where it germinated but had a much lower percentage - the germination rate on that 4th millenium looks damn near 100%. Also curious to be watching that KBG. I didn't know the blades were so skinny. I know they're babies but will be interested to watch all of this going forward. Also - I'm curious to see how the KBG fills in...Thanks again!


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## NewEnglander

@MichiganGreen 
I spoke with a guy at Preferred Seed and he sent me the actual trial results on 4th Millennium. The actual germination rate was 97%. They label it at 90% to cover themselves, I guess NY has some strict penalties around it. Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say it's close to 100% - impressive!


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## LawnSolo

@MichiganGreen The Traverse 2 and 4th. Millennium were seeded on the same day. The mix and the KBG failed on the first attempt so what you see here (Mix and KBG) are a later seeding day.


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## MichiganGreen

NewEnglander said:


> @MichiganGreen
> I spoke with a guy at Preferred Seed and he sent me the actual trial results on 4th Millennium. The actual germination rate was 97%. They label it at 90% to cover themselves, I guess NY has some strict penalties around it. Based on what I'm seeing, I'd say it's close to 100% - impressive!


I'm totally leaning toward this 4th Millenium for next year. My only question is like many things, especially in nature - doesn't competition bring out the best? In other words despite how well this is doing - don't you think it would still make sense to mix in another or 2 other cultivars even if this Millenium takes the majority? Maybe 60/20/20 etc


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## LawnSolo

For my lawn I did *50/40/10* (4th. Mil/Traverse 2/Bewitched KBG)


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## MichiganGreen

sounds great. oh and I just noticed you're in Michigan - I WILL be watching the results closely! I'm putting down some more tomorrow in a few spots that washed out during my overseed - Don't want to do it but in the interest of time I just have to store buy, so I'm going to stop by a couple nurseries becuase the big box really don't have anything good - any fescue mix is thin - and even then it's powder coated, unsure of the cultivars, weed seed etc.


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## LawnSolo

MichiganGreen said:


> sounds great. oh and I just noticed you're in Michigan - I WILL be watching the results closely! I'm putting down some more tomorrow in a few spots that washed out during my overseed - Don't want to do it but in the interest of time I just have to store buy, so I'm going to stop by a couple nurseries becuase the big box really don't have anything good - any fescue mix is thin - and even then it's powder coated, unsure of the cultivars, weed seed etc.


Yeah, not sure if you remember me from Reddit  different nickname. I was helping you choose your seeds


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## MichiganGreen

ohhhh hahaha. thanks for answering my million questions. im super happy with what I ended up with. Just wish I had started my patching a week ago but oh well - I'll get it tomorrow throw er down and hope for the best.


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## drenglish

Not to hijack, but I wanted to encourage anyone else looking at these cultivars. So far so good for me: here is a picture today of my lawn with 4th Millenium, Traverse II, and Regenerate and Bewitched at an 80/20 TTTF/KBG mix. Only 2 weeks old:
. So far I'm very impressed with the growth and evenness across the lawn.


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## MichiganGreen

Was that a reno? Looks fantastic.


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## drenglish

It is. Aug 19 was seed down day. After coming from big box store grass seed, I'm really looking forward to having some quality top performing TTTF and KBG this season


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> Not to hijack, but I wanted to encourage anyone else looking at these cultivars. So far so good for me: here is a picture today of my lawn with 4th Millenium, Traverse II, and Regenerate and Bewitched at an 80/20 TTTF/KBG mix. Only 2 weeks old:
> . So far I'm very impressed with the growth and evenness across the lawn.


That looks fantastic!
I'm having same awesome results as well :

Please forgive the clippings on the sidewalk. I promise I cleaned them out after the pictures 
There are some areas that are still getting patched but overall I can say I have the best looking grass around 

















Here you can see my grass trying to take over the weeds on the empty lot :mrgreen:


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## LawnSolo

*September 19*

Bewitched KBG, Traverse 2 TTTF, 4th. Millennium TTTF and Mixed









I can clearly see the difference between TTTF and KBG now that I'm doing a close study :mrgreen:

Bewitched KBG


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## ken-n-nancy

LawnSolo said:


> Bewitched KBG, Traverse 2 TTTF, 4th. Millennium TTTF and Mixed


I'm curious as to how much of the Bewitched ends up surviving to maturity in the "mixed" container, or does it get choked out by the taller, faster-growing TTTF?


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## Belgianbillie

drenglish said:


> Not to hijack, but I wanted to encourage anyone else looking at these cultivars. So far so good for me: here is a picture today of my lawn with 4th Millenium, Traverse II, and Regenerate and Bewitched at an 80/20 TTTF/KBG mix. Only 2 weeks old:
> . So far I'm very impressed with the growth and evenness across the lawn.


where did you get this mix?


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## LawnSolo

ken-n-nancy said:


> LawnSolo said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bewitched KBG, Traverse 2 TTTF, 4th. Millennium TTTF and Mixed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm curious as to how much of the Bewitched ends up surviving to maturity in the "mixed" container, or does it get choked out by the taller, faster-growing TTTF?
Click to expand...

Probably choked  I see the KBG growing really slow.
I'm planning on releasing them into the wild. I'm pretty much done with the experiment. I may hold a little longer on the KBG to see where it goes but I want to plant them on my lawn in some small bare spots


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## JP900++

Did you notice any real differences between the Traverse and 4th Millennium? I started some pots last Friday night. I may have missed the shoots Tuesday night but by last night (Wed.) both were popping up. They're about 1/2 to 3/4 inch tonight. My Bandera and Bedazzled are still no shows at the moment.


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## drenglish

@Belgianbillie I got the TTTF mix at SeedSuperStore. It was a 1:1:1 4th Millenium, Traverse II SRP, and Regenerate. That mix and those individual grasses are not available on SSS at the moment but may be elsewhere. The KBG component I just added myself. Actually, I added it after throwing the TTTF down at the rate I wanted for an 80/20. For KBG, I used Bewitched and some Midnight, Everglade, and Award that I had on hand. But mostly Bewitched.

Three weeks from seed down right after the lawn's 2nd mow:


The dead strip next to my lawn was all crabgrass that I killed back on the neighboring field this summer to keep the weed pressure a bit lower. Sure makes for easier domination


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## PA Lawn Guy

Are you worried about erosion from the dead strip?

I would think you would want to seed it even if just a mid-tier grade cultivar, to help hold it in place.

Your lawn looks great BTW! &#128077;


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## drenglish

@PA Lawn Guy I have thought about it. I have a plan for this spring to put in grass or something else, but worry too about spread potential. It was 80 percent crabgrass and then the rest Bermuda. I've thought about wildflowers and just making sure my preemergent barrier is strong on my side. K31 is the main thought though...the area was a bit dead already because I would mow it short to keep the weeds from going to seed...erosion was already an issue in some of the mostly shaded areas. What to do...

Thanks for the complement. I'm really excited about the new grass cultivars and this season (and next).


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## MichiganGreen

That's so nice. I can see footprints....its like the shag carpeting of lawns. That's a compliment. Lol


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## LawnSolo

JP900++ said:


> Did you notice any real differences between the Traverse and 4th Millennium? I started some pots last Friday night. I may have missed the shoots Tuesday night but by last night (Wed.) both were popping up. They're about 1/2 to 3/4 inch tonight. My Bandera and Bedazzled are still no shows at the moment.


The Traverse seemed to be the first germinating but then the 4th. Millennium was the faster grower.
Also something I just started to notice, now that the samples are getting older, the Traverse seems to have slightly wider blades than the 4th.


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> Three weeks from seed down right after the lawn's 2nd mow:


That's some beautiful dark color there


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## drenglish

Hey @LawnSolo what height are you cutting your TTTF at? I have found that the mix I have is growing fast and the first few cuts so far have been at 2" to encourage tillering. I haven't been able to spot a difference yet in the 3 fescues yet, but then again, I don't know what they look like individually. Your test will help with that!

@MichiganGreen thanks! I'm trying to be light footed when traversing the lawn as to not stress it as little as possible, but can't wait until it's dense and thick later this season. I know having KBG in the mix will help with that.


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## NewEnglander

@drenglish I know what you mean about being light footed. I walk around like a weird looking cat on new seedlings. My neighbors think I'm nuts, but I'm OK with that.


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> Hey @LawnSolo what height are you cutting your TTTF at? I have found that the mix I have is growing fast and the first few cuts so far have been at 2" to encourage tillering. I haven't been able to spot a difference yet in the 3 fescues yet, but then again, I don't know what they look like individually. Your test will help with that!


I have been cutting at 3" since overseeding otherwise 3.5" and/or 4" always looks nice for me.


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## MichiganGreen

drenglish said:


> Hey @LawnSolo what height are you cutting your TTTF at? I have found that the mix I have is growing fast and the first few cuts so far have been at 2" to encourage tillering. I haven't been able to spot a difference yet in the 3 fescues yet, but then again, I don't know what they look like individually. Your test will help with that!
> 
> @MichiganGreen thanks! I'm trying to be light footed when traversing the lawn as to not stress it as little as possible, but can't wait until it's dense and thick later this season. I know having KBG in the mix will help with that.


Same with my turf. I was wondering the other night....how do these play nice together? Why doesnt kbg take over?


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## drenglish

@LawnSolo. Have you started fertilizing your test pots yet? If you noted it I must have missed it. I mixed up a liquid solution of Ammonium Sulfate to where 7.5 mL delivers the equivalent rate of 0.25lb N/1000 for my 9" pots. Took a few calculations but it's working nicely. Doing weekly spoon feeding and my KBG pots are growing nearly half an inch daily.

If I remember correctly, Traverse rated a bit lighter in color compared to 4th Millenium. Are you seeing any differences other than growth rate and leaf width currently?

@MichiganGreen Well, that is somewhat the idea or at least the potential for the KBG to fill in the gaps...or in my current situation, the squirrel holes. Ugh.

Too early to tell, but I'm sure with regular cutting that the grasses will blend nicely. The TTTF night shoot up faster but that quality doesn't bother me. The lawn always cleans up nicely after a mow.


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## JP900++

Such a cool thread. I think you've inspired a lot of us obsessives to be even more so. I had often thought about this and never made the effort. Now I think it's going to be an additional step to the yearly ritual. Really helpful for timing etc. I'm hitting my lawn today. 
My Beddazzled showed a few shoots at five, but has been sitting there mocking me since. The Bandera (last season leftover) is late to the party. Hopefully it shows up. I'll add some shots of my process too at some point.


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## JP900++

So...I lied. I typed that last comment up last night sitting in bed. As of this morning there are a couple of Bandera seedlings flirtatiously peeking out at me.


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> @LawnSolo. Have you started fertilizing your test pots yet? If you noted it I must have missed it. I mixed up a liquid solution of Ammonium Sulfate to where 7.5 mL delivers the equivalent rate of 0.25lb N/1000 for my 9" pots. Took a few calculations but it's working nicely. Doing weekly spoon feeding and my KBG pots are growing nearly half an inch daily.
> 
> If I remember correctly, Traverse rated a bit lighter in color compared to 4th Millenium. Are you seeing any differences other than growth rate and leaf width currently?


So sorry I have been so busy planting trees on my backyard haven't been checking the forums that often  







Planted around 14 trees and bushes :mrgreen:

So with the pots I started the seeds with Milorganite from the get go so I have not done any fertilizer

Regarding the color. The Traverse is slightly lighter than the 4th. Mil but very hard to notice.


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## LawnSolo

Bewitched KBG, Traverse 2 TTTF, 4th. Millennium TTTF and Mix. As you can see it's, hard to see color difference between the 2 TTTF cultivars









Here you can see the Traverse 2 TTTF blades are wider than the 4th. Millennium TTTF. I'm not sure if anyone else noticed the same.










The Bewitched KBG growing happy


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## drenglish

@LawnSolo Nice job on the trees and nice panorama too! I for sure can't tell a difference in my lawn between the various grasses unless I'm looking real close for TTTF vs KBG. I have noticed that my Bewitched pot has much finer blades than Award, Midnight, and Everglade. Definitely finer than the TTTF, but it'll all blend nicely I'm sure.

Your spacing between the shrubs and trees looks good too. It'll give you a little more privacy from the houses out there.


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> @LawnSolo Nice job on the trees and nice panorama too! I for sure can't tell a difference in my lawn between the various grasses unless I'm looking real close for TTTF vs KBG. I have noticed that my Bewitched pot has much finer blades than Award, Midnight, and Everglade. Definitely finer than the TTTF, but it'll all blend nicely I'm sure.
> 
> Your spacing between the shrubs and trees looks good too. It'll give you a little more privacy from the houses out there.


Thanks for the comments 
I have to say our family is having fun planting the trees. 
There is this spruce we bought that it became a celebrity between my family and neighbors. The tree looks like some sort of giant bug. It looks like a giant ant to me 

Here a picture I took from the nursery. Once we saw it, all my kids wanted it :thumbup: 
Look at the antennas, arms and even eyes LOL!


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## sowmyans

@LawnSolo great job and thanks for sharing the information.

Can someone help me to understand the details below..

If we go with TTTF (4th millennium) , why would we need such a small e.g, 10% of KBG with TTTF? Given that 4th millennium has the ability to spread , low risk on brown patch and can go with HOC of 2''.

Couldn't find a native mix at Seed Super Store on TTTF + KBG though it can be customized. Is there a specific reason PRG + KBG be the best vs TTTF + KBG ? (That is the mix I got from SSS in last fall for my area as the express option)

Thanks for any comments.


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## samjonester

@sowmyans it sounds like your leaning towards a mix. What do you want your primary grass type to be?

If you'd like to have primarily KBG, then you'll likely want to mix it with PRG. PRG will speed up the establishment period and blend very well because it's so similar in size and texture to KBG. If you aren't trying to speed up establishment, then go with 100% KBG.

If you go with 100% TTTF, then it will not spread and repair itself. You will be doing overseedings to repair damage from disease or heat. Even though there are new lateral spreading TTTF cultivars, and some aggressivly tillering cultivars available, they do not spread the way you think of KBG doing. Even a small bought of brown patch would wipe out a large enough area that you'll need to reseed. The LS and tillering is really just capable of thicking things up. There's an ntep study that shows how rhizomatous doesn't really spread much, and even K31 shows rhizomes.

If you'd like primarily TTTF with the ability to spread and thicken past what you'd typically see from 100% TTTF, then you're looking at mixing 10-20% KBG into it. The KBG seeds are _much_ smaller than TTTF, so 10-20% by weight actually means that you're looking at a higher percentage by # of seeds (and ultimately plants). More than 10-20% and you'll end up with a majority KBG lawn with patches of thick blades that don't blend well.

In my reno, I wanted TTTF for faster establishment, and also hoping that it would do a little better, staying more green, in the summer in my unirrigated lawn. I drag the hoses when I have to, but it's something I try to avoid. I added 10% KBG for a bit of thickening and repairability. I'm hoping that I won't need to overseed as often because of the KBG. I chose a 10% KBG mix at the suggestion of Stephen from Hogan to keep the real percentage of TTTF much higher.


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## drenglish

@sowmyans I went with an 80/20 TTTF/KBG mix and so far I love it. The texture at the moment blends nicely, I'm sure as the lawn matures things will look different. Color is great and growth rate is similar for now. I've already seen growth to fill in areas from sprinklers that were damaged or holes from squirrels that are slowly filling in. Adding KBG to TTTF is a must for me from now on - I'm in the transition zone so there will be a few challenges this next year for sure.


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## sowmyans

@samjonester , thank you  . I would like to get thick finer blade grass. Currently in my front yard primarily PRG. My builder threw some KY31 in my backyard part of their landscaping work. TTTF I have seen are wider blades which I don't like much , but after seeing the test here, love the 4th millennium. So thought that to put that along with KBG in my backyard to mix with KY 31 (KY is only on the strip boarder of my property today). Thanks for the great insights and read your backyard reno..it looks awesome 

@drenglish thank you. saw your lawn and it looks great, Thanks for sharing your exp.


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## samjonester

If you do decide to go with a TTTF+KBG mix, rather than KBG+PRG or 100% KBG, you could always call Hogan and ask about cultivars that will do well for your lawn and have finer blades. They're a bit cheaper than Seed Superstore, carry many of the same cultivars from the same suppliers, and I was glad I got the chance to talk grass with someone before purchasing.


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## ksturfguy

Hey @samjonester do you have to call the Hogan company for their prices or am I missing it somewhere. Looks like they sell a lot of good stuff but can't find any of their prices.


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## samjonester

ksturfguy said:


> Hey @samjonester do you have to call the Hogan company for their prices or am I missing it somewhere. Looks like they sell a lot of good stuff but can't find any of their prices.


Yeah they don't really have an online marketplace, which I assume is because they're primarily a distributor for bigger operations, not a direct to homeowner kind of place. I don't remember the price exactly, but after taxes and shipping to my location, the total was under $100 for a 25 lb bag. I'm sure it's variable depending on seed, blend percentages, weight, and shipping location, but I don't really know.

I also remember GCI being priced well (maybe even a bit better) for 100% TTTF, but it's only available in 50 lb bags, and specialized for one area of the country.


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## ksturfguy

Jesus your paying $100 for a 25 lb bag? My local farm and home store's high quality TTTF mix was $98 for a 50 lb bag.

Ive never really got why people pay the crazy high prices from online stores like seed superstore and seedland, etc $200 or what ever for a 50 lb bag just seems insane. I guess if you really really wanted a soecific cultivator and couldnt get it locally then i guess.


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## samjonester

Dang! That's a good price. I think it was like $25 or $30 for shipping, which sucks, but makes the price comparison a bit closer. I wouldn't even know where to begin finding a good farm supply store, let alone a sales rep that actually knew grass. My dad buys from a local place like that where I grew up, but I haven't found one where I live, yet.

I live in the middle of suburbia a few miles outside Philly, and have only been in this part of the country for about a year. It's all box stores around here. I think my best alternative would have been site one, or driving around to a bunch of garden centers until I found a decent one that sold more than Scott's (which I wouldn't have gotten away with during business hours with 2 under 2). Based on previous stuff here, it looked like I could trust Hogan and that their seed would make a nice lawn. The sales rep also helped me land on my mix and rates based on what characteristics I wanted for the lawn. I was actually on the fence between a PRG+KBG mix and a TTTF+KBG mix when I went into this.

Maybe I wasted $50, but I don't regret the purchase. Maybe I'll shop around the area more next time instead of buying over the phone, but I doubt it :lol:


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## g-man

Ha! I payed more than $100 for 10lb of Bewitched kbg.

But keep in mind what we are paying for. Certified sod quality seeds that are weed free (no poa a or poa t). It is far cheaper not to pay for weeds than getting rid of them later.


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## ksturfguy

Every bag of grass seed ive bought has been certified and weed free. Guess im just lucky to have good quality stores close by.


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## samjonester

g-man said:


> Ha! I payed more than $100 for 10lb of Bewitched kbg.
> 
> But keep in mind what we are paying for. Certified sod quality seeds that are weed free (no poa a or poa t). It is far cheaper not to pay for weeds than getting rid of them later.


I also had a small percentage of elite KBG in my mix which likely spiked the price a bit. That's a good comparison, though, because 10 lb KBG covers like what 4-5 K sq ft for new lawns (or at least somewhere in that ballpark)? You'd need close to, if not, the whole 50 lb bag of TTTF seed for the same area.


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## ksturfguy

@samjonester Yeah that would suck just to have the big box stores as your options. I've never really used the Scotts or other big box store options so can't really compare them to high quality stuff you can get online or at other farm and home stores. Maybe next year that will be my new test plot. Compare big box store TTTF with a higher quality stuff.

For you, it makes since to pay the extra $50 or what ever. I have 2 farm and home stores within about 15 minutes of me. 1 of which distributes to a lot of lawn care companies in the area and has 5 or 6 plots of all the different seed they sell. This was the blend I bought this year http://www.mtviewseeds.com/downloads/datasheets/WinnersCircle.pdf.

Like I said think I paid around $98 for a 50 LB bag. First year I bought this blend. Another farm and home store near me their 3 way blend of TTTF is only $69. Crazy cheap but I'll be honest not sure it's as good of quality of as the other store. I bought a 1 LB bag this fall of their 3 way TTTF mix and their TTTF/KBG mix and 100% KBG and planted 3 test plots just to see quality compared to what I normally buy.

I also have a Garden Store that sells a really good TTTF mix but their 50 LB bags are $125ish. So that pretty close to what your paying once you add shipping and handling.


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## Scagfreedom48z+

That's some pretty impressive growth coming out of the fescue.


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## Suburban Jungle Life

@samjonester If you don't mind taking a trip for the day and want a decent price on fescue, you can check out this place. Well rated on the latest NTEP trials. Cheaper than GCI seed and newer/better rated cultivars. It's $100 for 50 lbs.
Analysis:
Regenerate, Maestro, Reflection.
0.00% other crop
0.00% weed seed.

They do have a mix with some KBG but I don't know what's in it.


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## Ge0rdi3brit

@LawnSolo forgive me if this is a stupid question, but can you explain what rates you applied each variety (lbs/1000), and how you mixed them? Did you put all 75lbs down? I know for the fescue you can generally go 7-8lbs/1000, but KBG is usually 3lbs/1000 right?


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## PA Lawn Guy

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @samjonester If you don't mind taking a trip for the day and want a decent price on fescue, you can check out this place. Well rated on the latest NTEP trials. Cheaper than GCI seed and newer/better rated cultivars. It's $100 for 50 lbs.
> Analysis:
> Regenerate, Maestro, Reflection.
> 0.00% other crop
> 0.00% weed seed.
> 
> They do have a mix with some KBG but I don't know what's in it.


250 miles round trip probably isn't worth it, versus just paying for shipping... YMMV of course. :thumbup:


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## g-man

@LawnSolo any updated images?


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## LawnSolo

g-man said:


> @LawnSolo any updated images?


Sadly this is the latest one I have that I can share ATM from few days ago. Someone drove over the grass and knocked my mailbox last week 

I should mention Summer has been pretty hot this year and I'm trying to keep the grass from going dormant 










This one was earlier this year when I was applying Carbon X


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## drenglish

@LawnSolo Hey nice grass and nice bag of CarbonX over there! I guess I can't complain about someone driving over my flower bed the other day after seeing your mailbox. Yikes!

What's your watering been like?


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## LawnSolo

drenglish said:


> @LawnSolo Hey nice grass and nice bag of CarbonX over there! I guess I can't complain about someone driving over my flower bed the other day after seeing your mailbox. Yikes!
> 
> What's your watering been like?


Thank You 

I have been watering 0.5 inch of water (around 15 to 20 minutes per zone) every day at 4:00 AM when it's hot during the days. The days that are not so hot I do every other day or so.

I know some people may differ on how to water your lawns. For me, I just watch the weather and read what the grass is telling me 

I also have sandy/clay area so I need to water more often but not so deep.


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## Jconnelly6b

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> @samjonester If you don't mind taking a trip for the day and want a decent price on fescue, you can check out this place. Well rated on the latest NTEP trials. Cheaper than GCI seed and newer/better rated cultivars. It's $100 for 50 lbs.
> Analysis:
> Regenerate, Maestro, Reflection.
> 0.00% other crop
> 0.00% weed seed.
> 
> They do have a mix with some KBG but I don't know what's in it.


Small world, my cousins just bought Chesapeake Valley. Very cool, I'll see them this weekend looking forward to talking grass seed!

https://www.facebook.com/161223010614093/posts/2370133659723006?s=7801314&v=e&sfns=mo


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Jconnelly6b said:


> Suburban Jungle Life said:
> 
> 
> 
> @samjonester If you don't mind taking a trip for the day and want a decent price on fescue, you can check out this place. Well rated on the latest NTEP trials. Cheaper than GCI seed and newer/better rated cultivars. It's $100 for 50 lbs.
> Analysis:
> Regenerate, Maestro, Reflection.
> 0.00% other crop
> 0.00% weed seed.
> 
> They do have a mix with some KBG but I don't know what's in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Small world, my cousins just bought Chesapeake Valley. Very cool, I'll see them this weekend looking forward to talking grass seed!
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/161223010614093/posts/2370133659723006?s=7801314&v=e&sfns=mo
Click to expand...

Interesting. I don't know anything about the Connelly family companies. Hopefully they keep offering the same types of products or it's back to the drawing board for me...


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## Jconnelly6b

@Suburban Jungle Life company was started by my Grandfather, and grew rapidly in the late 60's when they were awarded the contract for hydroseeding the interstate 64 corridor in western Virginia. I'll find out more this weekend, but from the video sounds like they aren't planning on changing Chesapeake Valley at all.

https://www.landscapesupplyva.com/pages/history


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## Suburban Jungle Life

Jconnelly6b said:


> @Suburban Jungle Life company was started by my Grandfather, and grew rapidly in the late 60's when they were awarded the contract for hydroseeding the interstate 64 corridor in western Virginia. I'll find out more this weekend, but from the video sounds like they aren't planning on changing Chesapeake Valley at all.
> 
> https://www.landscapesupplyva.com/pages/history


That's cool! I think I'll stop by there today for my seed.


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## erickdaniels

@Suburban Jungle Life All, FYI. I talked with Gordon at Chesapeake Valley Seed last week while shopping for seed. Maestro is unavailable (fields did not produce?) and Reflection has a high contamination rate of PRG. Current Fescue Blend contains Regenerate, Fayette, and Meridian. Double Coverage contains Regenerate, Gold Medallion, Integrity, and Wild Horse(KBG). With that being said, I picked up a 50lbs bag of Reflection(last yrs lot) and a 50lbs bag of Regenerate (last yrs lot). Excellent pricing and great customer service. I'll blend myself with some Titanium 2 from SSS. FYI, Chantilly Turf farms has small 10 lbs bags of TTTF blend from last year with Reflection, Regenerate, and Maestro. Best of luck!


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## Greg E

String of notes convinced me to overseed with 4th Millenium TFFF. I now have a 25# bag that I intend to slit-seed next week in my lawn (SE Michigan) which is predominantly KBG. My lawn is not as dense and lush as I would like it to be. I want a lawn less susceptible to brown patch (fusarium blight) which has been a recurring problem for 20 years in mid/late summer that I have treated with various fungicides. From what I have read from this experiment the 4th Millenium TFFF looks reasonably close in color and texture to KBG. I do not plan to add any other seed (KBG blend) to the 4th Millenium TFFF when I overseed since I am sure there will still be KBG in abundance from what I have now. I also assume slit-seeding accomplishes some degree of dethatching as the blades cut through (.25" wide disc/rut width and depth at 1.5-2.0" intervals).

Any comments/suggestions? My lawn and issue with brown patch is common where I live ... made worse because we are sitting on blue clay below the topsoil applied when sodding was done some 30 years ago. Seems to me that TFFF is the right direction.


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## g-man

I don't understand why you want TTTF. It seems to me that it will make your brown patch problem worst, since kbg is more resistant. Is it really BP?


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## Greg E

What is BP?

Claim from string of notes/United Seed is that TTTF 4th Mellenium is more resistant to brown patch/fusarium blight.

United SeedsOur StoryResourcesShopContact Us 800-456-9901
Home / Athletics / 4th Millennium Tall Fescue

4th Millennium Tall Fescue
SKU: 4MILL-19 Categories: Athletics, Home Lawns, Parks

Description
4th Millennium SRP is the latest generation of the Millennium varieties from Turf Merchants, with rhizomes that enhance self-repair, speeding establishment, improving traffic tolerance and increasing recovery from damage.

Not only is 4th Millennium SRP shade tolerant and drought tolerant, but it also resists Brown Patch!

With its dark color and fine leaf texture, 4th Millennium SRP mixes well with 5 to 10 percent Kentucky bluegrass.

4th Millennium SRP was rated highest in an NTEP trial for turfgrass quality among Tall Fescues in two separate trials: "LPI Group 1" and "Transition Region."

4th Millennium SRP has demonstrated an extended adaption range and superior quality in a variety of exacting growing conditions, making it a leading choice for parks and athletic fields, home lawns and sod production.

Key Benefits:
Self-Repair from Wear and Divots
Performance In Shade
Drought-Tolerant / Water Savings
Traffic Wear Resistance
Brown Patch Resistance


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## vnephologist

Greg E said:


> What is BP?
> 
> Claim from string of notes/United Seed is that TTTF 4th Mellenium is more resistant to brown patch/fusarium blight.
> 
> United SeedsOur StoryResourcesShopContact Us 800-456-9901
> Home / Athletics / 4th Millennium Tall Fescue
> 
> 4th Millennium Tall Fescue
> SKU: 4MILL-19 Categories: Athletics, Home Lawns, Parks
> 
> Description
> 4th Millennium SRP is the latest generation of the Millennium varieties from Turf Merchants, with rhizomes that enhance self-repair, speeding establishment, improving traffic tolerance and increasing recovery from damage.
> 
> Not only is 4th Millennium SRP shade tolerant and drought tolerant, but it also resists Brown Patch!
> 
> With its dark color and fine leaf texture, 4th Millennium SRP mixes well with 5 to 10 percent Kentucky bluegrass.
> 
> 4th Millennium SRP was rated highest in an NTEP trial for turfgrass quality among Tall Fescues in two separate trials: "LPI Group 1" and "Transition Region."
> 
> 4th Millennium SRP has demonstrated an extended adaption range and superior quality in a variety of exacting growing conditions, making it a leading choice for parks and athletic fields, home lawns and sod production.
> 
> Key Benefits:
> Self-Repair from Wear and Divots
> Performance In Shade
> Drought-Tolerant / Water Savings
> Traffic Wear Resistance
> Brown Patch Resistance


This is vs other TTTF, not compared to KBG. It's specifically mentioned in 4th's marketing materials because BP is the Achilles heel of elite TTTF cultivars and it's at least better in comparison. I've specifically moved from TTTF to KBG to avoid it.


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## Greg E

I see this below from an expert on the brown subject in North Carolina who supports your comment. I live in MIchigan. Looks like I should dethatch and overseed predominantly with KBG with some TFFF mixed in. Open for suggestions. What is BP?

_Tall fescue as a species is susceptible to brown patch, and as a result all of the varieties within that species are susceptible with a minimal range of differences among varieties. Some of this is due to the fact that what we accept, and even expect, as desirable tall fescue lends itself to increased disease pressure. Dark color, fine leaf texture, and a dense canopy all look great (and its what people want to see), but these characteristics result in turfgrasses that retain heat and moisture due to their dark color and high density (which results in less wind movement throughout the turf canopy). Read more at: https://www.turffiles.ncsu.edu/2008/09/what-brands-of-tall-fescue-are-the-most-resistant-to-brown-patch/_


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## Greg E

I get it now. BP is brown patch duh!.  Thanks for input.


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## vnephologist

@Greg E Let's not continue to highjack LawnSolo's thread. Do you want to start your own to discuss further? Personally, based on your pics above, I'd do nothing more than follow a good Fall regimen and add some Iron to green it up a bit. It actually looks really good. I don't think you'll ever get a new KBG overseed up through your existing stand and the watering required will just make your existing more susceptible to fungus. I'm saying this as I know sometimes its hard to resist seeding that one time of the year we can do it.


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## Greg E

Ordered "Award" KBG Seed from SeedSuperstore.

_A study conducted by Michigan State University rated 98 Kentucky bluegrass cultivars in terms of their average turf quality over three consecutive growing seasons. The study ranked the 'Award' cultivar highest, followed by 'North Star,' 'Boutique,' 'Alpine,' 'Unique,' 'Blackstone,' 'Blue Knight,' 'Total Eclipse' and 'Excursion._


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## Greg E

Fine to start a new thread except I don't know how to do that. I am going to dethatch and overseed with KBG afterward. My trees show chlorosis so I see the need for iron for them (deep root fertilizer+iron chelate pellets) as well as for the lawn. Thanks again for advice.


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## Ohio Lawn

How did you end up liking the 4th millennium?


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