# Is this a good plan?



## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

I'm new to the lawn care hobby and I am eager to dive in the deep end. I've been gathering information and I'm working to put a plan together which I hope to start this fall. I'm hoping to get some feedback on my plans.

Some information about my lawn... Half of my lawn gets partial shade and the other have is full sun. One of the bigger problems IMO is that the lawn is uneven. There are also various types of weeds I see throughout the season including broadleaf weeds, nimblewill, (what I think is) yellow nutsedge, and crabgrass. I also had a pretty big moss problem, but seem to have put a significant dent in that issue by mowing high this year after applying a moss killer in the spring. Last fall I had a huge issue with grubs, but used Grub-Ex this spring which addressed it. This is the first year I stopped bagging my clippings after reading how beneficial they can be. Lastly, I've owned the house for 6 years and have never dethatched or aerated.

Here is a draft of the plan I've come up with for my lawn which I would plan to start around mid to late September:
1. Use lawn roller to do an initial leveling of my lawn.
2. Mow low then dethatch.
3. Core aerate.
4. Top dress using compost and drag level.
5. Overseed with tall fescue blend.
6. A week after overseeding, apply lime.
7. Around Thanksgiving, apply Milorganite.

Does all of this sound reasonable and in the correct order?

As far as addressing weeds, I was thinking about getting some Tenacity. Thoughts?

I know I'm covering a lot of topics here, but thanks in advance for any feedback.


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## The Anti-Rebel (Feb 16, 2019)

have you done a soil test and know your PH? you may not need the lime.


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## Allan-00 (Aug 6, 2019)

I think this sounds like a really good overall plan and in a logical order. The only thing I might add is that the lawn roller might not be worth the time/energy/money. Topdressing will likely be more helpful in leveling out any dents or low spots.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

The Anti-Rebel said:


> have you done a soil test and know your PH? you may not need the lime.


Yes. It's 4.7. I started another thread specifically for that issue.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

I don't think a roller will solve leveling problems. If you have fescue, you probably don't have thatch. But it is good to get up any dead material so the soil is exposed. You should do the lime right now or as soon as possible. If you're going to core aerate, do that and add the lime so it gets into the holes before the holes fill back in. Thanksgiving is too late for Milorganite. It needs warm weather for the microbes to do their thing. You can use fertilizer after the new grass gets going. Fall is the best time to fertilize. You might even consider using starter fertilizer or Milorganite at seeding. Fertilize again in October. Mid to late September is rather late for seeding in Philadelphia. If you get the lime down now, you could seed after a couple of weeks. Early September would be a better target for seeding. I'd suggest seeding before adding top dressing so the seed is directly in contact with the soil it will be growing in. Top dressing is optional. If you use it, go light. Main things grass needs at first: contact with the soil, water.


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Don't use compost to level. Use soil. Compost will decompose.


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

Skip the rolling. It will be a wasted effort.

Get your seed down ASAP. The window is quickly closing. The sooner the better. No milorganite that late. It won't do anything with the cooler temps.

I'd also skip fertilizer if you're overseeding. It's going to push top growth of your existing grass and out compete your new seedlings.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback. Sounds like I'll skip the roller.

As far as overseeding, I continue to read that early fall is the time to overseed in PA so the recommendations to do it ASAP are a little confusing. I consider "early fall" September-October. August is the hottest month of the year here. With regard to the timing of overseeding relative to the rest of the items I'd like to accomplish, it makes sense to me to get that all done first. No?

For Milorganite, the bag recommends 4 times a year with the last being at Thanksgiving. I can skip that if the consensus is it's unnecessary.

Lastly, with regards to Tenacity, is that something I would do in the spring such that I don't need to worry about it now?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You're seeding tttf and it only takes a couple of weeks to germinate, unlike KBG which takes longer. Early September is what I'd recommend. You could even do it later in September but early September gives you a chance to put some more seed down in places where it didn't take the first time. The most important thing to do now is get some lime down as you have a pH emergency. You should wait a bit after liming before seeding.

You need to do something about the weeds. I haven't used Tenacity on weeds before seeding so can't really advise. I have used it at seeding to prevent weeds from germinating and it worked well for that. I spot sprayed weeds with glyphosate before seeding. That kills the surrounding grass too but since I was seeding that was ok. Read the Tenacity label. Maybe ask another question here just on Tenacity as weed killer before overseeding. Probably someone has tried it.

I have no idea why the Milorganite bag recommends Thanksgiving as a time to put it down. Maybe in Florida it might be fine,


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

Here's what Penn State has to say in its publication on establishing a lawn:
"Seeding of cool-season turfgrass species can be done from mid spring to early fall, but late summer is the optimum time to seed in most areas of Pennsylvania. Soils tend to be dryer and warmer during late August and early September than in spring. Soils that are slightly moist are easier to prepare for seeding than wet soils and warm soils allow faster germination and establishment than cold soils. When planted in late summer, seedlings will have two cool growing seasons (fall and spring) to become established, whereas seedlings developing from spring establishments will be subjected to the heat and drought of summer, making survival more difficult. Weeds are usually more of a problem in spring establishments than in late summer establishments as the cool temperatures and frosts in late summer/early fall will slow weed development."


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## Bigfeather1 (Jun 11, 2019)

I would move the lime up to the top of priority. Your'e probably going to need three applications to get your PH up. ( over time)


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

*Mid to late September*

This is too late imo, I'd be trying to get seed down sometime in the next two weeks ideally. You want to get good establishment well before your frost window and get at least 3-4 mows onto the new seedlings before that hits so you get some good root depths. TTTF can germinate anywhere between like 60-85 degree soil temps, you can easily throw seed down right now and with irrigation have zero issues getting good establishment. And if you were going for KBG, it won't germinate for 2-3 weeks anyway at which point it'll be September.

*1. Use lawn roller to do an initial leveling of my lawn.*

Nah, pretty pointless as others have said the lawn roller really won't do much of anything. It's a lot of effort for very little results.

*2. Mow low then dethatch.*

Good plan there.

*3. Core aerate.*

I stopped core aerating when the new trend of the liquid aeration products came out and I personally prefer them. But core aeration isn't the wrong thing to do by any means, just for me the effort of renting the aerator, getting it to the house, kicking your a$5 to hell and back isn't worth it for me when I've seen liquid aeration products do a really good job at loosening the soil deeper too.

*4. Top dress using compost and drag level.*

Compost will break down and ruin your level... get a good soil instead, just make sure you find a place selling screened soil ideally. Or you could get soil with a ridiculous amount of weed seeds (or worse native grasses). I made this mistake once and it took me like two years to get them all under control in the area I used the unscreened soil.

*5. Overseed with tall fescue blend.*

Sounds good! Just remember, if your lawn is thin, don't go at overseed rates, go at new establishment rates.

*6. A week after overseeding, apply lime.*

I would apply this after your detatch/aeration. And apply it like 4-5 days minimum before you overseed so it has time to actualyl adjust the soil pH a bit. You said you did a soil test, were you low/high on Cal or Mag? For how low your pH is I'd suggest going with a fast action lime, Lowe's actually sells a pretty good product it's the StaGreen Rapid Lime. You don't want to lime after your seed is down though as you want to try to bring the pH up some at least so the seed isn't trying to grow in super acidic conditions. In fact, you may even want to go right now, get some of this and throw it down and water it in this weekend and then by the time you get to the scalp/dethatch in a week or two, put down another round of it. Your pH is 4.7, it'd be damn near impossible for you to make it basic in that time. So feel free to really pound the lime during this process. You may end up doing 2-3 applications from now til November and then do another soil test early next spring and see where you're sitting then.

*7. Around Thanksgiving, apply Milorganite.*

There's really no point in Milo after the weather stops being consistently above 70-75 during the day. It simply won't do anything. If you move your seeding window up as I suggested above, you'll want to throw some fert down after your second mow probably. Not a ton, but you can throw down a light dose of starter fert or something like that (pay attention to your soil test, was P or K high or low? That matters) I wouldn't go more than like 0.50LB/1000 of N though and then I'd try to do like a weekly spoon feeding of straight Urea until late October/early Nov (or a liquid N product, which can be easier to get an even light feeding of fast release N) to try and push some root growth in the new established seedlings.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

Interesting about the liquid aeration although the Simple Lawn Solutions product says to do it 4 weeks before seeding. So if I'm going to aerate this year, it would have to be core aeration. So should I try to dethatch and aerate before overseeding over the next two weeks or skip aerating this year and try liquid aeration next summer?

I limed last fall, this spring, and 3 weeks ago so I've been working to address the pH. Plan on doing another lime before the year is over. I was told each lime application should up pH 0.5 so it's surprising (concerning?) after 3 applications since last fall, it's still only 4.7.

Any recommendations on ferts to put down with my overseed? I think I have a bag of Scott's Step 4 left.

Thanks again for all the input!


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@im1dermike if you used soil savvy for your soil test, be really careful about correcting pH. It could cause more harm than good.

I don't do overseeds, so my experience is limited. I think the timing will depend on your irrigation approach. Two thing matter for growing seed. 1) seed to soil contact and 2) moist environment.

If you have irrigation, then going earlier should be easier while not too early to cause fungus on your current lawn. In an overseed, the current grass will block some of the sun and help retain moisture, so that is an advantage. If you plan on not watering at all, then a later date might be more beneficial due to rain storms and lower temps to keep the soil moist.

Last year we had a lot of rain/hurricane that cause a lot of washouts. Most of us that struggled will all say: we should have planted seed sooner to have more time for a mature plant or to reseed if we get a washout.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

I have no irrigation and my soil seems awfully dry.


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## rtdad (Jul 13, 2019)

All sounds good to me besides the rolling. Rolling never helped me. Also top dressing hasn't helped me and I got 5 cubic yards of good soil (loam) from a local nursery. I'm currently at step 2:

1. Cut low in increments and bag (took my about 6 passes total over the past week)
2. Dethatch and rake up thatch
3. Level with sand screened to 2mm - very thin layer, will take several years to even out bumps probably
4. Overseed at 8lbs/1,000 (thin spots in backyard)
5. Might try patch master for one especially troublesome corner
6. Water, water, water as much as often as humanly possible (no irrigation system, hand watering and sprinklers)
7. Starter fert
8. Lime next month

Good luck bro!


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

In your other thread I'm noticing you say you had a pH test, not a soil test. If you haven't had a soil test by a reliable lab, that's the first thing to do. It seems very strange that you would have been adding all this lime and your pH is reading so low. The lab will tell you how much lime you need. Maybe you won't be able to add it all at one time, but you will know what you need to correct your pH problem. And now I'm wondering if you have a problem or have been using some kind of unreliable test.

If you don't have irrigation, you also need to figure out a way to water and keep the soil moist. You can use hoses, sprinklers, and timers. But you need to figure out a setup, even if it's temporary.


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## Bigdrumnc (Mar 28, 2019)

Where in va? It's still early for tall fescue&#128565;. I am over seeding in NE NC in mid September, some years early October.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

Given the timing of implementing this entire plan now, I'm starting to think about doing the dethatching, (liquid) aerating, aged leveling this fall and then seeding in the spring. I've Benn reading spring listed along with fall of course as viable times to seed. Thoughts?


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

im1dermike said:


> Given the timing of implementing this entire plan now, I'm starting to think about doing the dethatching, (liquid) aerating, aged leveling this fall and then seeding in the spring. I've Benn reading spring listed along with fall of course as viable times to seed. Thoughts?


Spring is really difficult, you definitely won't get as good of an establishment in the lawn as you will doing the fall. Especially in our area here in the Philly/NJ area. It can be 70 for a week or two in March and then suddenly be 25-30 for a week or two after that and then randomly get a 85 degree week in mid May. The spring temps in this area are a lot less predictable imo than Fall.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

Hmmm very well. I'll detach and aerate this week and then overseed 4 weeks after aerating. Do I fertilize when overseeding?


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

In the lawn care world, we are in late summer/early Fall. Don't take the term "early fall" too literal. That doesn't mean when fall starts in late September.

My weather pattern isn't too far off of yours. What you should do is determine when your average first frost is. Then count back from there. Your new grass needs time to establish before first frost. Your average first frost occurs mid November. The latest I would seed is the very beginning of September.

And I just realized how many times I used the term "first frost" in this post! :lol:


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Best and most logical 'calendar' I found was 
http://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature
Seed below 80F local, but also make sure to have 8-10 weeks min before it dips below 55.
For PRG you may go shorter, but the longer the window is, the more root mass you will have (with proper fert programme for new grass).
This in Canada, gives me 12h window ).
M


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

im1dermike said:


> Hmmm very well. I'll detach and aerate this week and then overseed 4 weeks after aerating. Do I fertilize when overseeding?


Wait, why would you wait 4 weeks after aeration to overseed? I would dethatch and aerate this week and then put seed down as soon as those are done.

Also, most people are against fertilizing when overseeding, you fertilize after your first mow usually to try and push some new growth of the overseed. If you fert when you drop seed what you'll end up doing is pushing a ton of top growth in your existing turf and thus forcing you to have to mow too early. Typically you want to drop your HoC down to give yourself more growing time and thus more time for the new seedlings to establish.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

Khy said:


> im1dermike said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm very well. I'll detach and aerate this week and then overseed 4 weeks after aerating. Do I fertilize when overseeding?
> ...


Starter on seeding day or later is a very interesting topic. I will create a separate post about it. I am into it...tomorrow.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

Khy said:


> im1dermike said:
> 
> 
> > Hmmm very well. I'll detach and aerate this week and then overseed 4 weeks after aerating. Do I fertilize when overseeding?
> ...


Liquid aeration requires 4 weeks before or after seeding. I know seeding sooner would be ideal but would seeding a month from now be unadvisable?


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## Virginiagal (Apr 24, 2017)

You don't have to do aeration to overseed. If your soil is compacted, then that would be a reason to aerate but it would be because your soil is compacted, not because you were overseeding. There are advantages and disadvantages to aeration and probably a lot of discussions about it in the forum, if you want to read about it. You may not need to dethatch either, as tttf doesn't create thatch. You will want to mow low, bagging clippings, and get up stuff that would block seed from reaching the soil.

You asked about Tenacity and crabgrass. There is a discussion here about it:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=12490
Crabgrass will die at frost and you can prevent it by using preemergent in the spring. If you have monster crabgrass plants, even dead ones mowed low can prevent seed from reaching the soil so you may want to remove them with a hoe or shovel.

What are you going to do about watering? Have you gotten a soil test (not just pH test)? What lime recommendation did the lab make?


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

im1dermike said:


> Khy said:
> 
> 
> > im1dermike said:
> ...


Where did you read the 4 weeks before overseed thing? I've never heard it before, not saying it's wrong just curious to your source on that.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense from my point of view. If you think about it like this right?

Lets say today you go home, dethatch and throw down liquid aeration... then this weekend you overseed with TTTF. It's going to take 7-10 days just for those seeds to begin germinating and by that point you're basically three weeks out from your liquid aeration. By the time those seedlings really start digging roots into the soil past that first top inch or so, you have your month. And you could also then run a second application of liquid aeration with your starter fert application after your first mow a few weeks later.

So something like...

8/12 - Dethatch, Liquid Aeration, Lime (if needed). Do in that order.

8/18 - Seed down

8/25 - Germination

9/8 - First mow, starter fert + liquid aeration round 2.

Then you're home free, going to push those new seedlings nicely and really open up the soil with that second liquid application. If you really wanted to spice things up you could throw out a RGS type product (Simple Lawn Solutions also sells something similar on their Amazon store) which is basically just a Humic + Sea Kelp which should help open up some of the nutrients already sitting in the soil and help further entice root growth, which is the primary goal during the fall overseed. You want the deepest roots you can get before the turf goes to sleep for the winter. And by your 2nd or 3rd mow you could start spoon feeding some N to it as we get into October to keep a constant food source going for the month of October.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

The Amazon listing details for the Simple Lawn Solutions product says "Use 4 weeks before planting new seeds for better seed germination." In the answers section, someone also says the directions say you have to wait 4 weeks before or after seeding to apply liquid aeration.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@im1dermike I think it will be better to call the company that makes the product.

I would skip the product if it pushes the seed day outside the optimal window.


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

im1dermike said:


> The Amazon listing details for the Simple Lawn Solutions product says "Use 4 weeks before planting new seeds for better seed germination." In the answers section, someone also says the directions say you have to wait 4 weeks before or after seeding to apply liquid aeration.


I agree w/ what G-Man said above, reach out to SLS regarding that 4 week number. That said, from what I gather on the wording, I'm 99% sure what they're simply saying is

"For best results, apply 4 weeks prior to seeding to give the aeration optimal time to work it's way into the soil and really take full effect in your soil"

I don't think this is the same thing as say like... 24D which will say to not plant new seed or apply within X days of seeding etc. My understanding is that their product is basically just Sodium Laureth Sulfate in really high concentrations and as far as I know this would have no ill effects on seed. They're simply saying it takes time to work it's way through the soil and actually produce the intended results. There shouldn't be any harm in applying this and then seeding a few days later. It just simply means your soil may not be quite as loose as it could have been had you applied it 2-3 weeks ago vs applying it now.

But again, I'd reach out to Simple Lawn Solutions on Facebook or email to be safe as there may be some weird additive in the product or something that actually could cause an issue, but I doubt it.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

@Khy Here is what Simple Lawn Solutions said: _"We do recommend that you wait the four weeks because the Soil Loosener can soften the seeds and they will not germinate properly."_ I asked if I could use the soil loosener four weeks after overseeing and they said: _"I still recommend that you do the Soil Loosener first. The soil will be in better condition after the Soil Loosener to absorb water and nutrients. I don't think your grass will be in a mature enough stage to apply the Soil Loosener at only 4 weeks of growth."_

So I'm not really sure which way to go now and I'm kind of kicking myself for not knowing what "fall" meant in the lawn care world.

It seems like dethatching isn't really necessary since I've been bagging for years up until this season. Since waiting a month after doing the liquid aerating will ruin the chances of overseeding this year, perhaps this week I'll rent a core aerate and seed the same day. Then I'll lime in a month (since I just limed 7/8). The rest of the things (leveling, pre-emgergents, etc.) I'll focus on in the future.


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## Khy (Jul 27, 2018)

im1dermike said:


> @Khy Here is what Simple Lawn Solutions said: _"We do recommend that you wait the four weeks because the Soil Loosener can soften the seeds and they will not germinate properly."_ I asked if I could use the soil loosener four weeks after overseeing and they said: _"I still recommend that you do the Soil Loosener first. The soil will be in better condition after the Soil Loosener to absorb water and nutrients. I don't think your grass will be in a mature enough stage to apply the Soil Loosener at only 4 weeks of growth."_
> 
> So I'm not really sure which way to go now and I'm kind of kicking myself for not knowing what "fall" meant in the lawn care world.


That's... interesting. Had never heard that SLS would soften the seeds but I've never really used it either. So I would definitely take the manufacturer at their word.

I know with the n-ext Air8 product this stipulation is never mentioned at all. Last year I actually did my Air8/RGS/Tenacity all at once, watered it in and then threw down seed the following day and had really good results.

One question I've seen asked but haven't seen answered (maybe I missed it)... is your soil particularly hard? For example, can you take a standard say 6" screw driver and push it into your soil without much effort? If so, you really don't even need aeration.

If you can pass the screw driver test, just go ahead and proceed w/ your seeding and make sure it's done inside the optimal window. The other benefits of aeration besides decompaction are increased oxygen and water flow to the roots but running the dethatcher over the turf once or twice will also help to open the soil up and allow for more air to pass through as well. Obviously not as good as if you had gotten the liquid aeration out. But the seeding window matters a lot more than aeration if you're not seriously compacted.


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## im1dermike (Aug 9, 2019)

I can try the screwdriver test this evening but my general sense is that my lawn is very dry and very hard.


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