# Lawn rehab assistance. Weed central



## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Hello all,

I just purchased a home in the zones 7B/8a which is the Greenville area of South Carolina. Unfortunately it doesnt seem like the yard has been maintained whatsoever in years. The yard space is just over 17,000sqft and by the looks of it, all weeds? What are my options? Should I waste any time currently putting down some prodiamine? It seems like most people dont recommend seeding Bermuda so I thought maybe there is hope that will block any other weed seeds from germinating. The average temp here is in the mid 60s.

Unsure of what I should try to do. One thought I had was putting down granular prodiamine and then doing a blanket spray of Ortho Weed B Gon + crabgrass control concentrate from my backpack sprayer, wait a week, do another round of the post-emergent if needed. I could also do a round of Ortho for chickweed, clover etc. Next, I would dethatch the lawn and then mow as low as my mower can go, bag it and then put down a high nitrogen fertilizer(Lesco 24-0-11). I was hoping maybe from there I would be able to see what if any life of the grass comes back. From there I can get rolls of sod to take plugs from and place in various areas as needed while watering frequently and fertilizing as needed.

Some areas of my yard have big holes from tree stump removal, so I will also need to lay in some soil to even those areas. I think I could do this when I need to input plugs?

Am I on the right track or what are your thoughts on this disaster of a lawn?

Thank you!


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I wouldn't do Prodiamine since it might hinder the runners from tacking down if you can get it spreading. I would start with some 2,4-D and see how much Bermuda in under there. You can adjust fire for the weeds that make it through the 2,4-D.


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## Mightyquinn (Jan 31, 2017)

Welcome to TLF!!!

Ok, If you were going to apply one app of the WBG+Crabgrass it would cost you around $40 as each bottle will only cover 5,000 sq/ft. One app of the Chickweed/Clover killer would cost you $60 as each bottle only covers 3,200 sq/ft. So you would be into $100 for chemicals that may not work all that well and you most likely would have to reapply. I would recommend getting a bottle of Celsius as it will work on a wide range of weeds and has NO temperature restrictions like the other weed killers previously mentioned. With that one 10oz. bottle of Celsius you could do your lawn 5 times at the high rate with a little left over :thumbup: You will need a gram scale to measure it correctly and maybe some NIS(Non-Ionic Surfactant) which are both relatively cheap and good to have anyway. You will be set for your journey ahead :thumbup:

I would go ahead with the 24-0-11 as it will help whatever good bermuda you have to spread once the temperatures start to rise and it will help choke out some of the weeds too. If you have irrigation that will also help with the recovery.

One thing with the Celsius is that it is a slow killer but the warmer it is the faster it will work but just be patient after spraying it, the weeds WILL die!!


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

+1 on the Celsius mentioned by @Mightyquinn. I was going to recommend that but you really only get one high-rate and one low-rate application per year. You could always spot spray any leftover weeds without affecting the annual max. I would save the Celsius for when it gets warmer and start with the 2,4-D. It'll work a little faster than Celsius while it is still somewhat cool outside. Once it gets hot, nothing beats Celsius.

Either way, I'd get to work on those weeds as soon as possible.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Thanks for the tips. I think I will start with one round of a 2,4-D and see what happens. I will also order a bottle of Celsius for once it gets warmer. Should I do one round of the 2,4-D and then wait a certain amount of time(a week?) before dethatching and pulling all the dead out and then lay down the 24-0-11 and water it in and see what the grass does?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I usually give it at least a couple of weeks to do its thing but I would think maybe a week later it should have made its way into the roots so you could scalp/dethatch at that point.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Just posting some more photos if anyone has any other thoughts. I stopped by a local place today and they said it didnt look that bad(I dont see how) and that if I just fertilize with a high nitrogen fertilizer that should help the grass grow and suffocate out the weeds. I think I am still going to do a round of the 2,4-D, wait a week, and see what it looks like. From there maybe scalp/dethatch and put down the fertilizer.

Here are more pics of this disaster!


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Small update
- Actually laid down this 2 weeks ago and then got 3" of rain 3 days later - BioAdvanced 3 in 1 weed n feed. I know this may not have been the best, but at the time it was the quickest and easiest to get something down as I am still moving into this property and have a lot of projects inside going on. 
This is a 22-0-4 slow-release fertilizer with 2,4-D(.818%) quinclorac(.419%) and dicamba(.073%)
- Spot sprayed some big weeds with Spectracide Weed and crabgrass killer
- Been mowing low frequently as I can.
- Put down Triazicide Insect Killer
- Soil test kit arrived so I can get that going by the end of the week

- It looks like some of the weeds are dying, they are turning a purple/white color
Pic 1 - 

What is this stuff? Doesnt seemed fazed yet. Poa?
Pic 2 - 

Pic 3 -

Any recommendations for next steps? Here is my plan below, or should I change this? The majority of the yard gets a LOT of sunlight, not many trees and South facing. I see all kinds of grass in the area, some different stuff under trees.

1. This yard has a ton of holes/low spots so I leveled and filled some areas with topsoil. Still lots to do. I was going to next buy some bermuda sod and plug these areas, is this a good idea? After plugging I was going to lay down some more fertilizer like Lesco 24-0-11 this time. I have a pro plugger, sprinkler, and timer on the way.
2. Have a fisker weed puller coming. Should I start yanking big weeds out just to get their root systems up?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Do you know what specific cultivar you have? If not, I would pull plugs from the better areas and put them in the thinner areas. I've always been a fan of pulling weeds vs. spraying, especially the grassy weeds that don't seem to be affected by any of the treatments. I would go ahead and order some Celcius and Certainty. It's a decent chunk of change initially but is cheaper per 1000sf application in the long run.

Keep mowing low and often even when it feels like you are not cutting anything off. Also, keep updating this topic.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Unfortunately I have no idea what type of cultivar is present. I am not sure I have any really 'great' areas to pull plugs from which is why I was going to get sod. Should I not do that since its unknown how it will look in the future? I will pull the big grassy patches and fill with top soil and plug as well then.

Celsius and Certainty are on the list to be ordered since it will be over 90 before I know it!

I will keep trying to mow every 3 days. Only takes me about 30 minutes with my rider, so not bad at all!


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## Philly_Gunner (Apr 23, 2019)

Definitely in need of serious herbicide application. I don't see much grass in any of your pictures. As has already been said, jump on the Celsius/Certainty train and then see what's left!!


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## BubbaGrumpus (Jun 17, 2019)

+1 to Celsius/Certainty. Then push nitrogen. My yard was there last year. These 2 plus a pre-emergent should do the trick.. speaking of..

DO NOT.. I mean DO NOT miss a pre-emergent application. Kill what's there, suppress what's coming.. it's a multi year fix.

In the end though you should have a decent looking Bermuda yard.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Going to order them today. Hopefully if it comes in by Saturday/Sunday I can get it down. What I already applied has a pre-emergent for 6 months it says. I will get sprayable prodiamine for use in October and again in February. I got a big sprayer for my rider, but havent had time to get everything setup yet.

Thanks!

Edit: Just ordered certainty, celsius, and prodiamine 65 wdg. Ouch!


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Certainty, Celsius, and Prodiamine came in. I have the prodiamine ready for the Fall now.

I also stopped by Ewing as I found one close by online.

I purchased the following based on their recommendation and showing them some photos and what I have already applied. They gave me a discount on the products too.

1 - Empro Carbon Complex which was $111.76
"Derived from humic and fulvic acids, complex carbo-hydrates, proteins and organic acids."

2 - Andersons 16-0-9 with Surge which was $25.84 per 40lb bag

He said I should apply the Carbon complex asap and then a week later would be 5 weeks since my initial bioadvanced weed n feed application and I should apply the Andersons 16-0-9.

Does this seem good? Can I apply the carbon complex, certainty, and celsius all at the same time? Should I apply at the high rate or somewhere in the middle?

Thanks again!


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Older question in the thread, but in a very unmaintained yard, I think it is a pretty safe deduction that the bermuda in your yard is common bermuda.

Your list of chemicals is quite good, and if you stay your current course, you'll have a very nice looking bermuda yard this time next year. That said... If you want to change to an improved version, now is the time to just run glyphosate (roundup), nuke the yard, and pick something you'll enjoy. You're going to have a lot of bare spots as it is, so take the pain all at once vs letting it grow in to decide you don't like it and want to replace it. In Greenville, I would suggest Yukon. Pretty good combination of color, texture, recovery, drought tolerance, and cold tolerance, and it does pretty well from seed AND from plugging/sprigging.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

I would assume its common bermuda. I dont think I want to really nuke it all and start over with the abundance of other projects I have to do, especially this year. I think I want to see what happens this year and see how everything looks next Spring. I understand it will take longer, but hopefully by next Spring maybe I can say I have grass instead of all weeds!

Maybe I can try and get some springs to take photos of and see if anyone can help identify.


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## ktgrok (May 25, 2019)

If you are using the fert with surge for broadleaf weeds I don't know that you need celsius at the same time. Certainty would be a good idea though, I'd think.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

My $0.02 worth of input, but I think @Darth_V8r gave you the best advice given your situation, from my perspective. Really, when it comes to doing a renovation, it's really nothing more than a solid weekend worth of work, even for the size of the lot that you have. Don't be afraid to smoke it off, rent a harley rake, level it out, spread your seed, water and wait. And water some more. Pray for a mild hurricane season. It's akin to taking the bandage off slowly, or ripping it off and being done with it. Rip that sucker off!

The harley rake will help you get a really smooth surface, and allow you to compensate for those areas where the trees no longer are. When it comes to people saying not to seed bermuda, I'm pretty sure that they're advising people who have existing bermuda yards to NOT throw more bermuda seed at it. It's a strange anomaly, like some sort of hybrid confusion between a cool-season plan and warm season turf. Cool season owners typically aerate and overseed with more seed of the current cultivar, and warm season junkies overseed their bermuda with some sort of sissy grass so they can have a green lawn during the winter. :lol:

Celsius will clean up almost all of that garbage that isn't grass there, but you'll have to wait a bit for it to get warmer before you'll really see the results(works best when it's hot outside, slower when it's cooler). I did laugh out loud when I read that someone told you to fertilize, and the grass would choke out the weeds. That's like saying that the weeds won't benefit from the fertilizer as well.

When you spray Celsius, expect the broadleaf weeds to die pretty quickly, then you'll start to identify the other weeds that you'll need to treat. At least with a newly seeded yard, you're able to identify what areas are going to do well, and what areas might need some help. You'll learn the lay of your land, and adapt accordingly. You got this!


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Thanks for the input. I think for this year I am going to nuke a 10x10 area in the yard and plug it just to see how it goes in small controlled area. I feel I can do this easily(got a pro plugger already) and can easily manage with watering with what I currently have. If it goes well this year I think next year I would kill off everything and use a harley rake to level everything nicely and plug it all from pieces of sod. I just don't want to do anything that drastic yet and cant dedicate the time. I just bought this house and am redoing the floors, counters, and everything in-between. I also need time to plan out an irrigation setup where its viable to water 17,000 sqft!

Some bermuda coming through?


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Looks like some progress. I have begun pulling some bigger weeds with the fiskars weeder. Also laid down the Andersons weed n feed on Memorial day with lots of rain happening. Pulled 5 5-gallon buckets worth of weeds so far in only a small portion of the yard. Makes me think that maybe nuking the yard is going to be the only real option to whip this into shape!


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

Does anyone have any tips for identifying a sedge? Certainty is for sedges; celsius is for the rest. How do you know which one to use?


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## FranksATX (May 7, 2018)

Google purple nutsedge or yellow nutsedge. They are easy to ID.

If you think you have sedge and have not treated your lawn yet with anything I highly recommend you use both on your fist application. Medium rate for both.

Using both at once will eliminate 98% of the weeds in your lawn.


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## Colonel K0rn (Jul 4, 2017)

@sonicboom141 I'm about 95% certain that the grass blades that you put in the last picture is torpedo grass. You need to treat it with glyphosate.

To be frank, if you have 60% crap, and 40% grass, it might be worth trying to save the grass that's there. Some people are 70-30, others 50-50. I'll give you the advice that I gave someone else who was looking at a salad bar for their lawn. Get started killing it off and get some seed planted before hurricane season kicks off. A solid weekend of cleanup, and work with some machinery will give you a good seed bed, and you can seed a lot your size on a budget, but go with the best quality seed you can afford.


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## Jeremy3292 (Apr 30, 2020)

FranksATX said:


> Google purple nutsedge or yellow nutsedge. They are easy to ID.
> 
> If you think you have sedge and have not treated your lawn yet with anything I highly recommend you use both on your fist application. Medium rate for both.
> 
> Using both at once will eliminate 98% of the weeds in your lawn.


Can you mix both in the same sprayer?


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## WWC (Apr 19, 2020)

Yes you can mix them. You could also invest in some MSM Turf. Very cheap and will kill almost all your broadleafs and also highway grass (bahia) which im sure you will get in SC.


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## FranksATX (May 7, 2018)

Jeremy3292 said:


> FranksATX said:
> 
> 
> > Google purple nutsedge or yellow nutsedge. They are easy to ID.
> ...


Yes. Both are usable in high temps and work well on bermuda.

Whatever does not die with these two is a candidate for roundup or hand pulling.

Also, these it may seem expensive for these two products, but they will last a long time.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Trying to pull weeds right now is about like trying to fill the grand canyon a spoonful at a time. The entire remainder of this post is assuming you still want to try to work with what you have vs nuking (which I still think you may as well, because after you treat with Celsius, the yard is going to be thin)

In general, I look at weed and feed products kind of like a spork. It does both jobs to a degree, but neither one nearly as well as could be done with independent chemicals. There's not really enough weed killer in them to take care of that kind of weed coverage. Celsius will make a far bigger dent in the weeds vs the weed and feed. It'll be two days before you notice an effect, and a good week before you really see the weed death, but be patient with it. Don't pull the weeds up until you know they are good and dead after applying Celsius. Don't put the prodiamine down if you think you'll overseed.

As to irrigation, my yard is 5x the size of yours, and I'm using water hoses and oscillating sprinklers. Takes three days to water the yard start to finish. Believe me, I want an irrigation system, but sometimes life interferes. Point is, you can get it done with what you have.

After you kill off the weeds, they actually make for very good carbon source. Mow it really low. If you scalp, don't worry. You can't kill bermuda with the lawnmower, not matter how hard you try. After that, you can power-rake / verticut to remove the dead matter OR spray with a liquid dethatcher to help break it down plus some humic acid, which is actually what I would do. Top dress after spraying with sand. As all that crap breaks down, you'll build a pretty good topsoil, even if you do a sloppy job with the sand. Renting a machine would cost you about the same as the humic and D-Thatch, but I think you'll get more long term benefit from the chemicals.

All of the above will help, even if you decide to nuke the yard and seed with an improved cultivar. Just don't put down prodiamine until you know for sure you won't be seeding, or until after you have seeded and it has germinated and started spreading.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

I haven't done the prodiamine yet because I am still trying to see if I want to take on the full renovation and which may be best for my yard. After spending more time in the yard, mowing, laying the fertilizer etc its still hard to find anything worth saving in certain areas and its just a mess. The yard also has many 'potholes' and huge dips and is far from a nice smooth, level surface.

If I plan to nuke the yard, can you give me some advice so I can do some more research?

What sort of cultivar? I do have some big trees in areas as shown and I don't plan on removing them. Especially in the back of the yard I have many huge pines. Should I look at a turf type fescue, or is their a bermuda variety that would hold up okay.
I would assume for a full renovation I would need 3 rounds of glyphosate followed by a scalp of the yard. Can I leave those remains in the yard, or should I bag it? I don't have a bagger for my rider, but do for my push mower. Once that is complete I would need to level the yard with some top soil. I can rent a self-propelled harley rake locally, so that could be an option to level out some top soil. From there I would just need to look into seeding and watering.

Depending on which seed I would look at doing that this Fall 2020 or Spring 2021. This way I can do more research and have time to plan.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

Are your pines long leaf or loblolly? I have four massive loblolly pines in my front yard. Grass grows right up to the trunks. I'll try to find a pic to attach to the post. In the pics early in your thread, I see some cedars or cypresses, but no big pines.

If you have long leaf, you my as well live with the dead areas under the tree or put down some mondo grass or liriope. Not much else is going to grow under there.

Most of your yard is getting pretty good sun, which makes it a great candidate for centipede, zoysia, or bermuda. Test your soil pH. If it is good and low, say under 6 and especially if between 5.0 and 5.5, I would run with tifblair centipede, as it does good under the loblolly canopy in my yard as well as under full sun. I have four massive loblolly pines. 50 feet if they're an inch. My 32 ft ladder barely goes halfway up the trunk. Centipede will tolerate rotary cutting with a push mower the best, too. If you go with tifblair, it is slow to germinate, and then it seems like it takes forever to spread for the first year, then suddenly, it will kind of spring to life and look really full. it may be well into the second year, so be patient with it if that's your choice.

If your pH is closer to neutral, then the decision is between zoysia or bermuda. The closer you get to neutral, I would lean toward bermuda. The seeded variety I had great luck with was Yukon. It stayed green a good long time into the fall, nice fine texture, pretty good coverage and recovery rate.

If you go Zoysia, it won't fill in as fast, but when it does, you'll have a great looking turf. Meyer to me has a great combination of overall qualities of texture, toughness, recovery rate, etc. If you want something the spreads faster, El Toro does, and it is also pretty shade tolerant. Pallisades also seems to do well under shade. If you're cutting with a rotary, zenith is probably the best choice of all the zoys, but honestly, a rotary push mower isn't a great idea for any zoysia. Zenith can also be established from seed, but I have found this is hit and miss. I find even zenith does better if you sprig it. Anyway, if your mower choice figures into the equation, consider that, too.

Between the two, if it's a coin toss, I'd go zoysia over bermuda for my tastes. Figure 4x the fertilizer for bermuda, and then mowing a lot more on bermuda. And bermuda will do better with a very low cut, as well, so also a great candidate for a reel. Your easiest choice is probably tifblair centipede, to be honest.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

That just shows how much I know about trees! The big trees in the back is what I was referring too so they may be cedars. I can try an get some more photos of areas tonight if this rain stops. I saw another thread with a liriope recommendation, so that may be the way to go That will also help create some more privacy. There is about 128ft across that I will need to do this too.

I just sent off my soil test kit on Monday to Clemson, so I am just waiting to get that back. Sounds like I can wait for these results and do some research on seed. I will look into the tifblair centipede as well as Yukon Bermuda.

Any recommendations for a Turf type tall fescue? Or do you think that may not be a good option for me?

Thank you for your help!


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

It's kind of a preference thing. I don't particularly like it. but that's no good reason to not use it. I just never saw it in person where I liked it.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Had so much rain after this last round of weed n feed I havent been able to mow. Here are some pics.

Still looking into tifblair centipede and bermuda.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

That new growth on the bermuda looks great. Keep it mowed low and it will take over quickly. That first picture of your May 28th entry looks promising.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Got my soil test results back from Clemson. Will take some more yard pics this weekend. Areas are definitely filling in with what I hope is mostly Bermuda! Any recommendations on what to apply for the below results?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I'm not real experienced with reading these but this would be one that I would think milo or a similar ratio would actually work well. Let see what the experts say...


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Looks like from Ewing I can get some 0-45-0. Should I apply that?

Areas filling in!








What are these patches of grass, should I try to pull them out? Lots of various areas throughout


Crabgrass? Didnt realize the pic was terrible. This is under a tree.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

So lots of areas are filling in lately, but after some research is this maybe just torpedo grass and not Bermuda? All of the areas growing in look like this. Growing and spreading fast which is nice, though.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

@sonicboom141 looks like bermuda to me.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

You have bermuda filling in. Stay the course.


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Good to hear! It is filling in many patches nicely. Towards the back of my yard there just isnt enough sun coverage. I was thiking of doing some seed this fall where the bermuda hasnt been able to make any progress. I was looking at maybe doing some black beauty seed up to where the Bermuda is and have them kind of duke it out next year.

https://www.jonathangreen.com/product/black-beauty-ultra-grass-seed.html


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Yard is slowly doing its thing. Lots of areas filling in I will have to get some more pictures. I have a huge patch of my yard of just crabgrass, like 10ftx50ft section. I think its time to do a blanket spray of celsius. I finally got my mount installed on my rider so I need to mount the 15gal sprayer and dial it in.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

The funny thing about when the grass takes off, the weeds do too. If you hit it with celsius, you'll take out the crabgrass. Keep pushing nitrogen, and the bermuda will continue to fill back in over the summer. Your best friend is actually going to be a fall and spring Pre-M. The crabgrass will die over the winter anyways. The trick is to stop the seeds from germinating..


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

I got prodiamine wdg for fall and spring pre-em application. Cant wait for next year. Just trying to clean up everything the best I can currently. The yard already looks far better than when I got here in May.

Celsius application up next. Will get some photos of what happens over the next few days/weeks. Thanks!


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Got the sprayer hooked up and laid down some celsius yesterday. Cant wait to see what happens!


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

Sprayed celsius about 3 weeks ago. Lots of stuff died off, but it seems like the crabgrass wasnt effected. I may need to do another round. I also have certainty, but haven't applied it yet. I need to that too.





Think there is just too much shade in the back of the yard for the Bermuda to spread. Do you think I should seed with a cool weather grass back here this fall?


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## sonicboom141 (Apr 25, 2020)

I think this was 1 week after celsius spray. Lots of stuff was chaning colors, but it seems to have bounced back. I sprayed at the medium rate.


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