# Fall Nitrogen Blitz (cool season grasses only)



## g-man

*Fall Nitrogen Blitz*​
Fall is approaching. The temps start to cool down from the summer heat. Storms are in the forecast. It is time to start the Fall Nitrogen Blitz. This is just one approach (of many) that I have successfully used and so have others.

If you could only do one thing to your lawn for the entire year, fall nitrogen is it. The second one being spring PreM (pre-emergent). Why fall nitrogen? As air temperatures start to cool down (60-75F), they approach the prime temperature for growth of cool season lawns.. The soil temps are also good (unlike in spring) to promote root growth. Part of the fall nitrogen blitz approach is to provide nitrogen so the roots could recover from the summer damage and store the nitrate as carbohydrates during the winter. This extra build up helps the lawn be more robust during the winter and faster green up in the spring.

_Notes_

First, I live in the Indianapolis area. The dates I use are for my area. If you live far north (Canada) then go a month earlier. If you live south of Indy, then delay 2-3 weeks. If you live in Slovenia, try to find a USA state that has similar weather. Check the forum for what other experienced members are doing around your area.

Transition zone cool season grass can start being fertilized in early September, with the late fall application probably in early December. Top growth might not stop for your zone, but I think it is a good idea to not continue applying nitrogen during the winter. This subject was discussed in the post by @j4c11  Fall Nitrogen in the Transition Zone

Lastly, this is not intended for a recently (3-4 weeks ago) seeded lawn since the grass is too young to be forced to grow with nitrogen. Let it grow a winter before doing this. During an overseed/reno use a spoon feeding approach.

 Your local university might publish/blog local recommendations based on local research. Find a close one and read their advise.

 Each state might have local restrictions on herbicides and fertilizers. Please research your state and follow the applicable laws.

More importantly, it is best to recognize the signs and not to follow a precise calendar. This post is just a guideline, feel free to experiment. Follow the "What did you do with your lawn today?" post to see what members from your region are doing and ask them for advice.

* Fertilizers *
The main source of fertilizer should be the fast acting ones. This prevents delayed feeding response from the nitrogen breaking down. I refer to urea (46-0-0) during this article, but it does not mean you have to only use urea. Urea tends to be the cheapest with easy application math (~50% of the weight is nitrogen).

You will find urea at feed stores (~$20 for 50 lb) and it is unlikely you will find Urea at typical home improvement stores (e.g. Home Depot, Lowes, Tractor Supply) so don't bother. It is best for urea to be watered in shortly after application for two reasons: (1) urea pellets resting directly on blades of grass can cause localized "burn" of the blades, particularly if dampened lightly, but not watered in, such as by dew which wets the grass blades and the urea pellets, but isn't sufficient to dissolve the urea pellets into the soil, and (2) urea does start to lose some nitrogen to volatilization to the air, but this effect is not as extreme as sometimes reported. The amount of volatilization per day is highly dependent upon a variety of factors, such as moisture (more moisture is worse), soil pH, and temperature. Therefore it is best for the urea to be watered in with 0.25-0.5 inches of gentle rain or irrigation within 1-2 days of application.

As temperature drops or depending on your soil pH, Ammonium Sulfate (21-0-0) is another great fast acting nitrogen source. I prefer it over Urea.

Also, be careful with overlaps since overlapping will concentrate the nitrogen and could kill your grass. If you want to be safer, you could split the quantity of monthly Urea in half and apply every two weeks (this is what I actually do). For monthly, apply urea at 2 lb/ksqft to provide about 1 lb/ksqft of nitrogen. For biweekly, apply at 1 lb/ksqft to provide 0.5 lb/ksqft of nitrogen.

ALL references are to granular soil nitrogen. If you want to spray (it is a lot of extra work), you need to water in immediately for the rates discussed in this article.

*The shed *
Depending on the summer (wet vs. dry) but around August the lawn will start growing faster again. It will also look like it is shedding dead stuff. This is the time to starting dropping the height of cut (HOC) from the summer HOC. This also helps the lawn get rid of the dead stuff and prepares the lawn for the fall. The HOC is a very personal choice, but most will be happy with a 2.5 inch height of cut (HOC).

*Fall PreM (if not overseeding)*
Early August (when soil temps drop) is also the time to apply a PreM barrier, especially if there was a wet or cool summer. The PreM applied in spring has broken down by now or was washed away by the rains. Poa annua germinates once the summer temps drop (Poa A is a cool season grass too), therefore a PreM now prevents it from establishing during the fall. You won't notice now, but next spring you will. I recommend prodiamine at 0.65 lbs ai/acre (*0.24 fl oz/ksqft*)rate.

*Nitrogen*
Around mid August (again for Indy), it is time to start dropping nitrogen. You need to apply 1 lb of nitrogen per 1000 sq ft (1 lb/k) per rolling month. What nitrogen? At the beginning(August) it could be any, synthetic or organic (milorganite, corn, alfalfa) or a mix; but consider your cost (since organics tend to be more expensive). The organics will take more time to break down and could lead to a delayed feeding. Early September, switch to a fast acting nitrogen source. See the Fertilizer section above for more details.

So, you will be mowing. Around twice a week, if not more to avoid breaking the 1/3 guideline. Water the lawn as needed (but might not be needed).

*The slow down*
_ or the lull, the interlude, the hiatus, the rest, etc _
I continue applying nitrogen monthly until around 25 Oct (remember to adjust to your area). This allows grass to slow down from all the nitrogen you applied without forcing more top growth. Since there is less daylight and temperatures are cooler, your grass will start to slow down. This is the natural response as it prepares for winter. What is your job? Just keep mowing. Yep, that's it.

*The end of the season (aka winterizing)*
You will continue to mow for around a month after the last fertilizer application, until one day you will notice no clippings from your mower. The grass stopped top grow and the roots continue to develop. It is a bittersweet day. You will need to prepare your mower for storage (clean it, dry it and wax it) and get the snow blower out.

*Withdrawal syndrome*
After all the mowing and fertilizing, now is the withdrawal period. You might notice some folks living in your house. They seem nice and friendly to you and call you Dad (or Mom). Apparently there are a few shows to binge watch on Netflix too.

So, all there is to do now is go to TLF and see pictures from the warm season side or the Australians. Maybe they are scalping or playing with sand. Maybe it is time to learn about Bermuda. You might also get to learn from the Australian members or start planning for next year.

*PS*
So if you read all of this, there is one thing I left out to not focus on it. There is a more intense form of nitrogen blitz. Instead of 1 lb/k of N per month, you apply 0.5 lb/k of fast acting N per week. Yes, that yields 2 lb of N/k a month and yes, you will be mowing. It is like the grass grows behind you as you mow. The main benefit I see to it is if you need KBG to fill large voids. In my opinion, an established mature and dense lawn doesn't need it and it is a lot of work. It's really necessary to use a fast acting nitrogen (urea/AS) and it needs to be watered. I've done it the year after a renovation and it spreads the KBG.

*PS2*
I move this traditional last task as an option. For those of us old school in Fall Nitrogen, it might be weird why the change. New research has found that this last step shows very few benefits and it is not environmentally friendly. @osuturfman discussed a new model in ATY that uses 50% slow release, but what I describe is a hybrid using fast release. UNL actually changed their fall recommendations in 2014 to avoid the late fall nitrogen. Therefore last year, I decided to skip it in a portion of my lawn as a trial. The results were that I could not tell the areas apart during the winter and spring. I tested it at 1.5 HOC and 3in HOC too. This year I'm just going to skip it. The very late fall nitrogen application is one of the hardest things to time properly. I know habits are hard to change, so I challenge you to give it a try in a portion of the backyard and share your observations next year.

Here are the steps if you choose to do this:

Once growth stopped, you have a period of 3 weeks (or before the ground gets frozen) to apply 1 lb/k of nitrogen from a fast release source. This means urea or ammonium sulfate (not organics and not coated big box stuff called *winterizer*). Yes, you will be applying fertilizer to grass after the blades have stopped growing, but the roots are still active and will save some of that nitrogen through winter and spring.

Remember the comment above that Urea needs watering? Yes, this is the most challenging aspect. In ground irrigation won't help since it is likely blown and winterized. So, you need to watch the weather and do a rain dance to hope for rain within the 3 weeks since growth stopped. If no rains shows up, then you will need to drag a hose and sprinkler out and water the lawn before the ground freezes. So far, I have never needed to do this and I don't know how i would be able to explain it to the wife.

_Collaborators_
Virginagal, K&N, LIgrass

Sources:
http://plantscience.psu.edu/research/centers/turf/extension/factsheets/turfgrass-fertilization-professional
http://grounds-mag.com/mag/grounds_maintenance_coolseason_turf_benefits/
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/39/7/1745.full.pdf
https://turfdisease.osu.edu/news/benefits-late-fall-fertilization-0
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/ay/ay-22-w.pdf
http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/tgtre/article/2000oct.pdf
http://turf.unl.edu/pdfctarticles/Grass%20Roots%20PGR%20N.pdf
http://www.extension.uidaho.edu/nutrient/pdf/smallgrain/New/Management%20of%20Urea%20fertilizer%20to%20minimize%20volatilization.pdf
http://landresources.montana.edu/soilfertility/documents/PDF/pub/UvolBMPEB0209.pdf
http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/46/11/1545.full.pdf
https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/Fall%20Fertilization.pdf

Licensed Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International (CC BY-NC-SA 4.0)
https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/4.0/


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## pennstater2005

Excellent post g-man! I started this last year and can attest to the considerably increased mowing. It was worth it though as my existing KBG, as limited as it was, did seem to spread more aggressively. I also split the applications so to not run the risk of burning any portion of the lawn.

I'm looking forward to beginning this regimen again soon!


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## ales_gantar

I will delete this post after your edit, since I'm not sure if the PM was sent.

Bag or mulch?
I'm planning on overseeding in mid august, which might mean a difference in mowing protocol, but I am not sure.


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## GrassDaddy

I can't wait!!


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## Pete1313

Excellent write up g-man! :thumbsup:


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## MarkAguglia

Damn what a stellar job on this and funny as hell too!


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## wardconnor

This is a golden post. It will likely be referenced for years to come.


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## RockyMtnLawnNut

This is an epic post! Thanks so much for taking the time to put this all in one place with the references!


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## Ware

Just let me know if/when you'd like this moved to the Articles & FAQ's subforum. :thumbup:


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## monty

This is awesome! How difficult would it be to write up something similar for your first year after a renovation?


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## LIgrass

Great post g-man!



> I'm not sure about the combination of growth regulators (PGR) and this approach. It seems to contradict each other. Please share your experiences to update the post.
> Lastly, this is not for a newly seeded lawn (aka reno or overseed) since the grass is too young to be forced to grow with nitrogen. Let it grow a winter before doing this.


A PGR will slow top growth, but root growth and lateral spread still happens at the same (or greater) rate.

With newly seeded lawns it's fine to start spoon feeding around 2-3 weeks after germination. I did over 6lbs N/K the fall I renovated and had the fastest green up I've ever experienced the next spring. As long as you're not burning the grass, it's safe to fire away.


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## g-man

Thanks everyone for the collaboration/feedback and keep it coming. It seems like we are converging on an initial release. I expect that we will continue to fine tune this over the years.


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## chrismar

I know we're trying to steer clear of Mr. Wiz, but "the slow down" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "the pause".


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## social port

chrismar said:


> I know we're trying to steer clear of Mr. Wiz, but "the slow down" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "the pause".


Season slumber? 
(Still a bit of a mouthful)...
The slumbering ?


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## pennstater2005

social port said:


> chrismar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know we're trying to steer clear of Mr. Wiz, but "the slow down" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "the pause".
> 
> 
> 
> Season slumber?
> (Still a bit of a mouthful)...
> The slumbering ?
Click to expand...

The lull, the interlude, the hiatus, the rest. I'm just spitting out synonyms!


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## chrismar

There are so many synonyms, but none of them sound as good. Maybe I'm just used to it being called the pause. Old habits die hard, I guess.

I'm kinda partial to "the wait" or "the rest". The shorter the better IMO.


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## monty

pennstater2005 said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> chrismar said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know we're trying to steer clear of Mr. Wiz, but "the slow down" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "the pause".
> 
> 
> 
> Season slumber?
> (Still a bit of a mouthful)...
> The slumbering ?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The lull, the interlude, the hiatus, the rest. I'm just spitting out synonyms!
Click to expand...

No need to give it a cool or catchy name...just call it First Frost or Average First Frost


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## pennstater2005

Yeah, I don't actually really call it anything either. When I stop noticing clippings with my mowing I know top growth has stopped and I apply the winterizer. Usually around Thanksgiving, some years later. A few years ago I mowed on Christmas Eve!

I've got more synonyms, you know, just in case 

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=pause+synonym


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## chrismar

"The moment in time that shall not be named"


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## social port

Well, it's up to g-man, isn't it?
((Whispers: the slumbering))


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## social port

chrismar said:


> "The moment in time that shall not be named"


 :lol:


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## g-man

Updated with all of the above.


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## dfw_pilot

New readers: this advice for a fall nitrogen blitz is for cool season grasses only. If you have a warm season grass, this *does not* apply to you!


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## g-man

Good catch. I fixed the tittle.


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## Lawndad

Great write up and thanks. Is this where we could post our questions regarding the program? If so, I had a few now and probably a few after. If not just let me know where to redirect these to.

* I normally aerate and seed a few bad areas in the Fall. Can I still do this program or does the Urea completely destroy and kill any new grass? Any tips on how to still do the program would be great.

* I do like to use a pre-m in the Fall if I can but there aren't too many that are available for seeding and on the cheaper side. Last year I used Scotts starter fert. with weed preventer but I wanted to get away from Scotts and try the Fall Nitrogen Program. Should I use another one that is safe for seeding or skip the Fall one and hit the Spring pre-m?

Thanks :thumbup:


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## Ware

I would say go ahead and ask them here - it may help someone down the road who has the same questions. :thumbup:


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## g-man

Lawndad said:


> Great write up and thanks. Is this where we could post our questions regarding the program? If so, I had a few now and probably a few after. If not just let me know where to redirect these to.
> 
> * I normally aerate and seed a few bad areas in the Fall. Can I still do this program or does the Urea completely destroy and kill any new grass? Any tips on how to still do the program would be great.
> 
> * I do like to use a pre-m in the Fall if I can but there aren't too many that are available for seeding and on the cheaper side. Last year I used Scotts starter fert. with weed preventer but I wanted to get away from Scotts and try the Fall Nitrogen Program. Should I use another one that is safe for seeding or skip the Fall one and hit the Spring pre-m?
> 
> Thanks :thumbup:


It is ok to ask here or start a thread or any of the above. I also started a 2017 thread just targeting the current year weather conditions.


When you plant and grow new seeds, it is ideal not to push top growth with fertilizer in the new young grass. This makes the roots not develop as strong for the winter (reserve carbs). So it is a choice of what is more important, the provide nitrogen to the current grass (thus sacrifice the new one) or ensure the new one establishes. If you have kbg in your lawn, I dont see the need to overseed every year. The nitrogen will make it spread and recover for minor summer damage (something less than 6in in diameter).


PreM and overseed dont go together. Tenacity will help keep weeds under control while the seed germinates, but it wears off (i think it last 30 days but I cant find a reference). A real preM (prodiamine, dimension, etc) that provides months of protections against all germination (desired grass and weeds). Always do the spring PreM. If you want to overseed, then you will need to skip the fall one.


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## Ware

g-man said:


> I also started a 2017 thread just targeting the current year weather conditions....


Sorry, I forgot all about that. :thumbup:


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## Lawndad

g-man said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great write up and thanks. Is this where we could post our questions regarding the program? If so, I had a few now and probably a few after. If not just let me know where to redirect these to.
> 
> * I normally aerate and seed a few bad areas in the Fall. Can I still do this program or does the Urea completely destroy and kill any new grass? Any tips on how to still do the program would be great.
> 
> * I do like to use a pre-m in the Fall if I can but there aren't too many that are available for seeding and on the cheaper side. Last year I used Scotts starter fert. with weed preventer but I wanted to get away from Scotts and try the Fall Nitrogen Program. Should I use another one that is safe for seeding or skip the Fall one and hit the Spring pre-m?
> 
> Thanks :thumbup:
> 
> 
> 
> It is ok to ask here or start a thread or any of the above. I also started a 2017 thread just targeting the current year weather conditions.
> 
> 
> When you plant and grow new seeds, it is ideal not to push top growth with fertilizer in the new young grass. This makes the roots not develop as strong for the winter (reserve carbs). So it is a choice of what is more important, the provide nitrogen to the current grass (thus sacrifice the new one) or ensure the new one establishes. If you have kbg in your lawn, I dont see the need to overseed every year. The nitrogen will make it spread and recover for minor summer damage (something less than 6in in diameter).
> 
> 
> PreM and overseed dont go together. Tenacity will help keep weeds under control while the seed germinates, but it wears off (i think it last 30 days but I cant find a reference). A real preM (prodiamine, dimension, etc) that provides months of protections against all germination (desired grass and weeds). Always do the spring PreM. If you want to overseed, then you will need to skip the fall one.
Click to expand...

Great thanks. I have TTTF and not KBG. I have some rodent damage spots and a few patches of fine fescue that crept in that I wanted to kill and overseed. I guess I could hand overseed those spots and then maybe cover them up with a tarp when I am applying my urea. That would work, right? I'll skip my Fall pre-m then and hit it hard in the Spring. I hope I don't get too much Poa next year.


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## Lawndad

Ware said:


> I would say go ahead and ask them here - it may help someone down the road who has the same questions. :thumbup:


I like that idea too. That way we can keep it all together.


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## ericgautier

Fall pre-m is what helps with Poa for next year though...


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## Lawndad

ericgautier said:


> Fall pre-m is what helps with Poa for next year though...


Yeah I know. I'm kina of beat if I want overseed a few spots, do the N program and drop a pre-m. Gotta decide...


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## ericgautier

g-man said:


> *Fall PreM (if not overseeding)*
> August is also the time to apply a PreM barrier, especially if there was a wet or cool summer. The PreM applied in spring has broken down by now or was washed away by the rains. Poa annua germinates once the summer temps drop (Poa A is a cool season grass too), therefore a *PreM now prevents it from establishing during the fall. You won't notice now, but next spring you will.* I recommend prodiamine at 0.65 lbs ai/acre (0.24 fl oz/ksqft)rate.


^^^


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## Lawndad

ericgautier said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Fall PreM (if not overseeding)*
> August is also the time to apply a PreM barrier, especially if there was a wet or cool summer. The PreM applied in spring has broken down by now or was washed away by the rains. Poa annua germinates once the summer temps drop (Poa A is a cool season grass too), therefore a *PreM now prevents it from establishing during the fall. You won't notice now, but next spring you will.* I recommend prodiamine at 0.65 lbs ai/acre (0.24 fl oz/ksqft)rate.
> 
> 
> 
> ^^^
Click to expand...

This is for if I'm not seeding a few spots, right? My game plan is to seed a few spots, do the N program but cover the areas that I'm seeding and probably skip the pre-m or see how pricy Tenacity is. I'd like to all the above but can't.


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## Lawndad

I have put some ideas together for my Fall plan incorporating the Fall N Blitz. Just wanted to get an opinion on this before I bought things and made moves. Here is what I'm thinking about for my 6,000 sq. ft. TTTF in NJ based on what I already learned in this thread. I thought this was good to post here because others may mold their plan from the info. gathered. :thumbup:


Get a PH soil test done at my County Extension in the next week or two. Add lime if needed.


I have some areas that need a little seed and I wanted to kill a few patches of fine fescue in the back to get some TTTF in there. I tried overseeding them last year and it's still patches of just fine fescue.
 A)
I can either seed them early as I can maybe in next week or two and be careful dropping the urea near those areas or B.

B)
Go the route of TTTF sod (yes I said it. Sod!  )If I go with sod then the urea shouldn't affect it too much because it's established. Would that be the better approach if I want to do the Fall N plan?


I do plan to core aerate. I have always done this with good results.


Add granular potash


As far a pre-m. I will look into Tupersan. I don't know if that's good for Poa and I know it's on the pricey side. If not maybe go the route of Tenacity or if it's too high I may roll the dice and just dig out my Poa spots in the Spring as I did this year. *Note: I did use Scotts Starter Fert. with weed preventer last year and still had Poa seep in there. So I don't know if the Mesotrione helped to suppress some of it or if I needed more applications of Tenacity alone.

From there I would just carry out the Fall N Blitz as noted. Would this Urea thicken any small bare spots because TTTF doesn't necessarily grow like Bermuda or KBG?

:thumbup:


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## monty

Lawndad said:


> I guess I could hand overseed those spots and then maybe cover them up with a tarp when I am applying my urea. That would work, right? I'll skip my Fall pre-m then and hit it hard in the Spring. I hope I don't get too much Poa next year.


I've done something similar to this with liquid pre-emergent that I did not want to hit certain spots with. I used plywood that I had sitting around and it worked well.


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## Lawndad

monty said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I could hand overseed those spots and then maybe cover them up with a tarp when I am applying my urea. That would work, right? I'll skip my Fall pre-m then and hit it hard in the Spring. I hope I don't get too much Poa next year.
> 
> 
> 
> I've done something similar to this with liquid pre-emergent that I did not want to hit certain spots with. I used plywood that I had sitting around and it worked well.
Click to expand...

I figured that would be a decent idea that would work... I can at least try it.


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## Lawndad

Hey everyone, I started the nitrogen program and I notice that my lawn (TTTF) is getting green, however, it's more of a brighter green than most other lawns around me that use your traditional mixed fertilizers. The other lawns have a deeper green more of the bluish green color to them from just one application. I have two urea applications that I have applied so far. Will mine not get that color because there are no iron supplements mixed in with the straight urea?


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## Ridgerunner

Lawndad said:


> Will mine not get that color because there are no iron supplements mixed in with the straight urea?


That's certainly a possibility. What pH did your soil test report?


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## ken-n-nancy

Lawndad said:


> Hey everyone, I started the nitrogen program and I notice that my lawn (TTTF) is getting green, however, it's more of a brighter green than most other lawns around me that use your traditional mixed fertilizers.


Has the growth rate of your grass picked up following the urea applications? In other words, has it clearly responded to the urea by growing faster, but is remaining a brighter green?


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## Lawndad

Ridgerunner said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Will mine not get that color because there are no iron supplements mixed in with the straight urea?
> 
> 
> 
> That's certainly a possibility. What pH did your soil test report?
Click to expand...

I had planned on it but decided not to check it again. I applied lime (80lbs total for 5,900 sq. ft.) and I was around a 6.5 in the Spring time when it was last checked.


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## Lawndad

ken-n-nancy said:


> Lawndad said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey everyone, I started the nitrogen program and I notice that my lawn (TTTF) is getting green, however, it's more of a brighter green than most other lawns around me that use your traditional mixed fertilizers.
> 
> 
> 
> Has the growth rate of your grass picked up following the urea applications? In other words, has it clearly responded to the urea by growing faster, but is remaining a brighter green?
Click to expand...

I don't really see it growing too much faster than before. It's not anything that is extreme but I guess I could say it's definitely growing a little quicker than before.


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## Ridgerunner

> I applied lime (80lbs total for 5,900 sq. ft.) and I was around a 6.5 in the Spring time when it was last checked.


The lime application could be the source of what you have observed. At higher pH, Fe becomes less available to turf (how significantly an impact lime at 14#/M would have would depend on soil CEC and iron levels). Secondly, lime can interfere with N availability to the turf. However, pursuant to current theories of causation, it is less likely that raising pH from 6.5 should have a great impact on that availability.


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## Sinclair

Does anyone grind up their urea before applying?

The stuff I bought from the feed store is rather large grained, which causes it to spread in a sporadic fashion.

Does this matter? Does it causes uneven distribution of N, or does watering it in spread it out?


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## g-man

Could you post a picture? I dont grind mine, that too much work.


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## Sinclair

This is just a picture I found on google images, but the stuff I have is like the pellets on the right.

I'm holding my digital calipers in front of me now, and 2mm-4.75mm is definitely what I have, not 0.8mm-2mm

This was the only urea option at the feed store.


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## wardconnor

Sinclair said:


> This is just a picture I found on google images, but the stuff I have is like the pellets on the right.
> 
> I'm holding my digital calipers in front of me now, and 2mm-4.75mm is definitely what I have, not 0.8mm-2mm
> 
> This was the only urea option at the feed store.


This is about the size of the stuff I buy. I have not had any trouble. I did however burn my grass a week or so ago from putting down some fert that was all clumpy(half inch) and stuck together from leaving the bag in the rain in my truck. As long as its not clumpy I am sure you will be fine.

If your worried about it I would just put it down lightly and in multiple directions to make sure you get even distribution.


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## Sinclair

wardconnor said:


> This is about the size of the stuff I buy. I have not had any trouble. I did however burn my grass a week or so ago from putting down some fert that was all clumpy(half inch) and stuck together from leaving the bag in the rain in my truck. As long as its not clumpy I am sure you will be fine.
> 
> If your worried about it I would just put it down lightly and in multiple directions to make sure you get even distribution.


Thanks for the confidence, wardconnor. :thumbup:

I used this urea in it's unaltered state to do an app last Thursday, and I've seen no ill effect, but I'm curious if it could be more effective in a smaller particle size.

After watering none of it was visible. I did use the spreader on the lowest setting that allowed the urea to pass, and tried to walk multiple times and multiple directions until the full app was down.


----------



## stotea

Sinclair said:


> Does anyone grind up their urea before applying?
> 
> The stuff I bought from the feed store is rather large grained, which causes it to spread in a sporadic fashion.
> 
> Does this matter? Does it causes uneven distribution of N, or does watering it in spread it out?


A bit of searching online suggests granular is better. Apparently the finishing process and smaller size of prilled urea leads to increased leaching, water absorption (bad for storage), and volatilization. Additionally, prills are much softer than granules, which means prilled products tend to have more fines and dust/powder. Finally, since prills are smaller, they are lighter, which means their throw distance will be less when spreading. Typically, this is bad, as it can lead to uneven and "wavy" spreading.

Now, these potentially negative aspects of prilled urea should be much less impactful at the homeowner level compared to the industrial/agricultural level. But, I've found granular urea to be significantly cheaper than prilled urea. So, I'll be sticking with my granules. :thumbup:


----------



## g-man

Mine looks like yours too. I never had a problem. I prefer the 1lb /M (0.5lbN/M) every two weeks to be super sure of no burning. With the drought and heat this year, I'm in a holding pattern with nitrogen.


----------



## pennstater2005

Mine looks like the larger prills on the right. No issue with them. Well, other than maybe a recent over application


----------



## Sinclair

Thanks guys, glad to know I didn't get some weirdo Canadian metric Urea! :lol:

(they restrict how much fun we can have with chemicals up here)


----------



## aug0211

Awesome thread! One thing I've wondered since learning about the aggressive fall regimen is, is there a recommended online source for Urea?

I'm one of those lazy bums who loves to shop on Amazon - anyone have luck sourcing their urea anywhere online? I am not honestly sure about any good local sources for me to pick it up.


----------



## Ridgerunner

aug0211 said:


> Awesome thread! One thing I've wondered since learning about the aggressive fall regimen is, is there a recommended online source for Urea?
> 
> I'm one of those lazy bums who loves to shop on Amazon - anyone have luck sourcing their urea anywhere online? I am not honestly sure about any good local sources for me to pick it up.


Urea in Ohio costs less than $20 for 50# bag. You'll pay too much online. Ohio is farm country, you should have no problem sourcing it here. Where abouts in Ohio are you?


----------



## dfw_pilot

Ridgerunner said:


> Ohio is farm country, you should have no problem sourcing it here. Where abouts in Ohio are you?


+1. Use google maps to search for farm/feed stores. That's a good place to start for low cost urea.


----------



## g-man

Farm and feed or local co-op. Shipping a 50lb bag is too expensive. Also, sod farms or golf course might tell you where to go.

We probably have one more month, so keep that in mind. There is another approach that uses coated nitrogen, but I'm not too knowledgeable about it. I think Osuturfman is.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> Farm and feed or local co-op. Shipping a 50lb bag is too expensive. Also, sod farms or golf course might tell you where to go.
> 
> We probably have one more month, so keep that in mind. There is another approach that uses coated nitrogen, but I'm not too knowledgeable about it. I think Osuturfman is.


Thanks, g-man! I'm not set on even hitting my lawn with it this year, since it's so young. Might hold off and only do the winterization portion at the end of the season.

I was able to find a place very close to me that will give me a 50# bag for $25 (Advanced Turf Solutions). Thanks for the help, all!


----------



## stotea

Ridgerunner said:


> Urea in Ohio costs less than $20 for 50# bag.


$13 for me in MN. :thumbup:


----------



## pennstater2005

stotea said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> Urea in Ohio costs less than $20 for 50# bag.
> 
> 
> 
> $13 for me in MN. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

That's cheap! $20 for me too although I'm not complaining


----------



## g-man

aug0211 said:


> Advanced Turf Solutions


I have an advance turf 10miles from me. You could get a lot of stuff (PreM) from them and they dont mind selling retail. I'm pretty sure you could get a better price for Urea, but at least you have a place to get it. A local feed store might also have ammonium sulfate or ammonium nitrate too or SOP.


----------



## Lawndad

Ridgerunner said:


> I applied lime (80lbs total for 5,900 sq. ft.) and I was around a 6.5 in the Spring time when it was last checked.
> 
> 
> 
> The lime application could be the source of what you have observed. At higher pH, Fe becomes less available to turf (how significantly an impact lime at 14#/M would have would depend on soil CEC and iron levels). Secondly, lime can interfere with N availability to the turf. However, pursuant to current theories of causation, it is less likely that raising pH from 6.5 should have a great impact on that availability.
Click to expand...

Thanks, in the past week I had some spots actually die on me. I had to stop the plan and seed these areas. I think my lawn took on too much N and zonked out on me. I had applied Milorganite 3.5 weeks prior and then two applications each week of urea. It didn't handle it well. To say the least, I'm done experimenting with this plan at least for this year. Less is better as I can see but I do contribute the issue caused by too much N by me I am guessing. I'm in the process of nursing it back to good health. :lol:


----------



## monty

Stopping the blitz at average first frost, correct? Looks like end of October for Philly area.


----------



## g-man

That's the general guideline.

The weather has turned cold in Indy, I will stop a week earlier (this weekend).


----------



## ken-n-nancy

monty said:


> Stopping the blitz at average first frost, correct?


Well, maybe.

Bottom line up front: using "_*average*_ first frost" as the time to stop the blitz is an excellent recommendation, possibly with a little margin built-in, as to when to stop the blitz. However, one has to be careful not to confuse _actual _first frost with _average _first frost.

The time to stop the "fall nitrogen blitz" for cool season lawns is 4-5 weeks before the grass in your lawn ceases to have top growth.

The day when top growth has stopped is pretty easy to identify when it happens. As g-man says in the first posting in this thread, it is when "one day you will notice no clippings from your mower."

However, even though "4-5 weeks before top growth stops" is the right time to make the final quick-release fertilizer application to one's cool season lawn, it's not very practical guidance. It's kind of like the recipe for how I like my toast for breakfast -- toast the bread until it's just getting burnt, and then 15 seconds less. Exactly how I like it, but really of no practical use, as the instructions can't be followed.

So, what is really needed is a "leading indicator" that happens 4-5 weeks before top growth stops. Alas, identifying such a leading indicator is harder than one might think.

Personally, I find that what works best is keeping a log (a.k.a. journal) of lawn activities, including when top growth stops for your lawn. If this log also includes some notes on general weather trends, then in future years, you can look back at the log you've taken in prior years and, as autumn progresses, make your best guess as to when top growth will stop taking into consideration the current weather. You can then make your last quick-release fertilizer application 4-5 weeks before that date.

It has been observed that "average first frost" tends to be pretty close to the date of 4-5 weeks before top growth stops. The duration of that lag varies by climate. In general, those living near really large bodies of water (the ocean or a great lake) will see a longer lag. For my lawn, I've found that "average first frost" tends to run more like 6 weeks before "top growth stoppage." If you live somewhere practically surrounded by lots of water, such as Cape Cod, the lag is likely even longer.

I've personally observed, however, that in online forums using "average first frost" as the time to make the final quick-release fertilizer application results in all sorts of confusion for new readers, who misunderstand and instead think that it is "actual first frost" that is the time for that final quick-release application. They also tend to get confused and think that it is the first frost that makes the grass stop growing. (This isn't true either -- cool season grasses aren't killed or even much affected by an isolated frost event, as long as one doesn't walk on the grass while it is frozen.)

The problem is that "actual first frost" is a highly variable date for any given year and the variation is just as much random as it is correlated with a "colder than average" autumn or a "warmer than average" autumn. In all honesty, when the lawn top growth stops has more to do with "colder than average" and "warmer than average" than when the "actual first frost" happens. (This is because "actual first frost" is just a one-night event, and isn't strongly correlated with whether or not that year is warmer/colder than average.)

So, yes, "average first frost" works pretty well as a date to make that final quick-release fertilizer application (i.e. "stopping the blitz"), providing even a week or two of extra margin for most folks.

However, it is important to remember that the real goal is to anticipate top growth stoppage by about 4-5 weeks, and that "actual first frost" is practically meaningless in figuring out when the top growth will stop for cool season lawns.


----------



## monty

Excellent explanation. I think I've got a good handle on what to do this year and what to look for in future years. Thanks for the time to write that out.


----------



## Darkshadow

I'm curious how people with underground irrigation systems handle watering in the last drop of nitrogen. Do you wait to blow out your irrigation lines until after you've watered in that last drop of nitrogen for the season? Or do you blow out your irrigation lines and then try to time the last nitrogen drop when rain is in the forecast?

I've done it both ways, but some years it can be a challenge to find someone to blow out the lines later in the year, depending on when the last drop of nitrogen is called for. I've learned too many times not to trust the forecast so I always set my system to irrigate at least 1/2 inch the night of my nitrogen applications. I don't have a compressor big enough to handle the CFM it takes to blow out my lines, so I have to rely on finding someone to do it for me. Just wondering if anyone else has found a good compromise.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Darkshadow said:


> I'm curious how people with underground irrigation systems handle watering in the last drop of nitrogen.


Personally, we shut down the irrigation system after making the last of the regular weekly urea apps, which is still long before that last final "after top growth stops" application.

By the time that "top growth stops" we'll have had some good hard freezes, for which it would have been a bad idea to have the irrigation system still operational.

We make that final application on the night before (or even during) nearly-certain rain. One needs to not just look at the %precipitation forecasts on a web site, but look at a satellite sequence or traditional "weatherman forecast" for when a major front passes through and definitely brings a few hours of rain with it. It's a very unusual fall here that wouldn't have such a rainfall in the first week "after top growth stops." If that didn't happen within a week, I'd probably get the hose and sprinkler out and water in the urea the old-fashioned way.

By the way, here in NH we're in that waiting period right now. We've made that last of the regular weekly urea apps a while ago, are scheduled to have the irrigation system blown out next Friday (Nov 3rd), and aren't expecting the top growth to stop until around Thanksgiving.


----------



## g-man

I do like k&n. I blew mine lines last weekend. I will just time it with rain.


----------



## dfw_pilot

Speaking of K&N, I wonder why this isn't his/her avatar:


----------



## ken-n-nancy

dfw_pilot said:


>


 Not a bad idea! I've even previously used k&n air filters on the TR6...


----------



## j4c11

Is there any concern with urea volatilization and/or leaching during late fall when temperatures are low and nitrifying bacteria is slowing down?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

j4c11 said:


> Is there any concern with urea volatilization and/or leaching during late fall when temperatures are low and nitrifying bacteria is slowing down?


Volatilization and leaching are always a potential issue when applying urea fertilizer.

The rate of volatilization and leaching are dependent upon a myriad of factors including soil pH, temperature, soil moisture, soil organic matter content, soil composition (sand/silt/clay)

There is always some volatilization and leaching; whether or not it's "too much" is a judgement call, as it's not like there's a sudden switch from nearly 0% loss to nearly 100% loss, but rather there's a slow transition in how much is lost depending upon all those factors mentioned above.

The article that I like as a reference if you want to read up on this in the off-season is Management of Urea Fertilizer to Minimize Volatilization by the folks at Montana State University.

The frequently-cited treatise on the subject of volatilization and leaching seems to be The Fate of Nitrogenous Fertilizers Applied to Turfgrass by Martin Petrovic of Cornell University. I've read this article previously, but couldn't find a place to read it for free just now.

Key takeaways are that atmospheric loss can be reduced substantially by irrigation after application and leaching losses are highly influenced by fertilizer management practices (rate, source, and timing).

Personally, I think that fertilizer should never be applied to the lawn if there isn't sufficient watering (whether from irrigation or rainfall) before the ground freezes to get the fertilizer down into the soil where it will be safe from runoff.

One of the most thought-provoking studies I've read on the topic is from about 10 years ago at the University of Wisconsin, Management Practices Affecting Nitrogen and Soluble Phosphorus Losses from an Upper Midwest Lawn, where the findings were somewhat contrary to public opinion that fertilizing lawns is wasteful. Not surprisingly, they found that the primary factor affecting amount of runoff was the depth of runoff (sudden rain events are bad). What was surprising, however, was that the second most important factor was that unfertilized lawns had the most runoff of nitrogen and phosphorus! _Putting down no fertilizer was worse than overapplying fertilizer!_ As always, one needs to be careful with extrapolating these results to other circumstances than the test conditions. In particular, these test results were with cool-season KBG that is in frozen ground for nearly all of the winter, and most of the runoff loss occurs in late winter / early spring with snow melt and rain on partly frozen ground.


----------



## osuturfman

j4c11 said:


> Is there any concern with urea volatilization and/or leaching during late fall when temperatures are low and nitrifying bacteria is slowing down?


Yes, there certainly is. Over the last 20 years, the means through which and how much N is taken up by the plant has been studied extensively at Michigan State (Dr. Kevin Frank) and Wisconsin (Dr. Doug Soldat, Dr. Bill Kreuser). Here is a short synopsis of what they have found.

*MSU - Frank*

In testing various annual rates of N on KBG in a lawn setting, they found that there is a need to back down to a 2-3 lb N/M annual rate for more mature (see 6+ years) turf stands. What was also interesting in their research was how much N was being recovered through the winter from the October applications of urea. He has published three papers on this on-going study, the most recent one last year. Here is a link to a presentation he did with his findings from 2002-2013.

https://turf.rutgers.edu/newsandevents/summitmeeting/frank.pdf

*Wisconsin - Soldat*

Soldat examined N uptake during late season conditions of September, October, and November on KBG and two other species. What he found was as evapotransportation rates (ET rates) decreased with cooler temperatures and shorter day lengths, less N was taken into the plant as the Midwest gets into November. To the point that less than half the amount of N that enters the plant in September will enter the plant in November under the same monthly N fertilization rates. Their deduction was because of the plant's reduced water needs, N slows in getting into the plant because the main mechanism for pulling N through the roots into the plant is also how water enters. Their recommendations since publishing the paper have been to spoon feed with decreasing rates of soluble N OR make one application of a 50% slow release N fertilizer in early to mid-September and call it a year.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/46/11/1545.full.pdf+html

http://www.nebraskaturfgrass.com/turfiNfo/Sep_fall_fertilization.pdf

*Summary*

There will be significant changes to the approach to late season fertilization on cool season grasses in the very near future. Some of us have already started. I am not calling out anyone on here, just noting that our best practices will be more refined in the next 5-7 years.


----------



## g-man

osuturfman said:


> There will be significant changes to the approach to late season fertilization on cool season grasses in the very near future. Some of us have already started. I am not calling out anyone on here, just noting that our best practices will be more refined in the next 5-7 years.


This is great info. In the original thread there is spot for explaining this approach (PS2). I tried to research it (based on Soldat paper) in the past, but I could not find a lot of published information. Is there something we could use as a guideline? I believe that we should share different approaches and I'll update the main post to include it.

Since I have your attention, I have always wonder the effects of soil composition with either approach. For example, a sandy soil should leach the nitrogen faster than a loamy one. But a heavy clay/silt one? I assume the nitrogen should remain available for a longer period but it might also take longer to reach deeper into the root zone (a function of the soil and irrigation).

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.


----------



## pennstater2005

80% chance of rain next Wednesday for my area. If forecasted temps stay as cold as they are now and there's little to no clippings at next mow....final urea app goes down.


----------



## ChappyEight

Thanks for this g-man. As a fellow Hoosier (Brownsburg) and a guy trying to stop being indifferent regarding my lawn, this guide is quite handy.


----------



## Ridgerunner

I thought I would share this as I thought it was interesting.
I had my soil tested for Nitrogen :Nitrate and Ammonium.
My last N fertilization was urea at somewhere between 1 and 2 lbs? as a winterizer in late November 2017. No other fertilizer of any kind was added until after the soil sample was taken in the last week of April 2018.


I've always wondered if that wasn't the inevitable outcome/result of winter fertilizer and the real reason for early Spring green-up?


----------



## desirous

Ridgerunner said:


> I've always wondered if that wasn't the inevitable outcome/result of winter fertilizer and the real reason for early Spring green-up?


That's what I had thought too. The soil storing the N over winter sounds a lot more plausible to me than the grass roots storing it.


----------



## Ridgerunner

desirous said:


> Ridgerunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've always wondered if that wasn't the inevitable outcome/result of winter fertilizer and the real reason for early Spring green-up?
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I had thought too. The soil storing the N over winter sounds a lot more plausible to me than the grass roots storing it.
Click to expand...

When I saw my test results, I remembered this post by osuturfman and thought I'd post my results:


> In testing various annual rates of N on KBG in a lawn setting, they found that there is a need to back down to a 2-3 lb N/M annual rate for more mature (see 6+ years) turf stands. What was also interesting in their research was how much N was being recovered through the winter from the October applications of urea. He has published three papers on this on-going study, the most recent one last year. Here is a link to a presentation he did with his findings from 2002-2013.


----------



## g-man

@desirous I think there is both going on. It is clear from the research of Soldat, Lyold, Stier that the root mass increased with fall nitrogen, so the roots are growing. (see research here: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/46/11/1545.full.pdf), but I've seen reports of nitrogen remaining in the soil (from Bill Kreuser here: https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/Fall%20Fertilization.pdf).


----------



## desirous

g-man said:


> @desirous I think there is both going on. It is clear from the research of Soldat, Lyold, Stier that the root mass increased with fall nitrogen, so the roots are growing. (see research here: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/46/11/1545.full.pdf), but I've seen reports of nitrogen remaining in the soil (from Bill Kreuser here: https://turf.unl.edu/turfinfo/Fall%20Fertilization.pdf).


Thanks for the links! Yes, roots are growing, but according to the study, N has no effect on that:



> Root growth and NEE were the only
> measured parameters for which N rate was
> not a consistently significant main effect
> (Tables 2 and 7). These results suggest that
> although root growth may increase in response
> to cooler soil temperatures (Tables 5 and 6),
> this trend is not stimulated further through
> N fertilization. Our finding is consistent with
> previous research (Mangiafico and Guillard,
> 2006; Powell et al., 1967).


----------



## Ridgerunner

When I started getting interested in my own lawn care, the common wisdom was that LSF promoted root mass/growth and carbohydrate storage. As it turns out, LSF has no effect on increased root mass and actually reduces the amount of stored carbohydrates by late Winter. It does produce earlier Spring green up which results in greater carbohydrate reserves by late Spring/early Summer. If not due to the increased soil N content, then what is causing the earlier Spring green-up?


----------



## Suburban Jungle Life

If it is sitting in the soil, is there a point in the large amount of N in late fall after top growth stalls? Maybe cut back that amount and put some in early spring right before green up? Perhaps there may be less runoff?


----------



## Ridgerunner

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If it is sitting in the soil, is there a point in the large amount of N in late fall after top growth stalls? Maybe cut back that amount and put some in early spring right before green up? Perhaps there may be less runoff?


I picked up the winterizer concept years ago. I believe it was a Buckeye Turf Note, but it may have been the "common wisdom" off a board. The push to 2# was purely mine under the more is better theory. Although that theory is counter to what I now understand and preach, for years I experienced phenomenal early Spring green up. (I had poor early green-up the one year I skipped the winterizer.) However, not so much the last couple of years. The only change that I can think of is that I've had less snow the past two years and more importantly I think, less snow cover allowing the turf to to be exposed to the elements.
I surmise the advantage to winterizer has been due to the N sitting in the soil and its availability the next Spring, but I'm also pretty sure the amount of N is excessive and the same results could be had with a different Fall N regiment. At least recent research reflects that.


----------



## dongdong

I found some cheap fertilizer at walmart for the fall nitro blitz, has anyone have any experience with this?

I was thinking about using the winterizer fert since it has more N.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Expert-Gardener-Lawn-Food-5m/55283717

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Expert-Gardener-Phosphorus-Free-Winterizer-Lawn-Fertilizer-21-lb-Bag/54604959


----------



## g-man

The winterized is 25% fast and 7% slow release. I think you could use it now but later in the season it will be best to switch to 100% fast.


----------



## Green

Suburban Jungle Life said:


> If it is sitting in the soil, is there a point in the large amount of N in late fall after top growth stalls? Maybe cut back that amount and put some in early spring right before green up? Perhaps there may be less runoff?


I have my own custom Fall fertilizer program (complete with 3 different versions with multiple applications) that I've modified based at least three experienced sources plus my own results over the years. It is not exactly the same as this blitz program or the ATY aggressive program (which clearly are not the same as one another either), but it does use elements in common to each, as well as some ideas from other sources as well. But one of the things in my custom program is a reduced dependence on the final winterizing application. I still do it, but the amount used in 2 of the versions of my program is less than the traditional amount, and the fertilizer type is slightly different. Version 1 is a cross between a regular Fall 2-app program and the ATY program. Version 2 relies a lot on slow-release fertilizer for the early Fall application and goes heavier on that, but lighter on the final winterizer. I have a 3rd version for seeding. There are also modifications to these take advantage of organics as much as possible, until the temps get too low. I also have a 4th minimalism program that relies on a single early to mid Fall fertilizer app, which we've used on family member's lawns with decent results. I also don't get as intensive as some of these programs do...the timing is a major component of version 1 of my program. I'm still modifying it, and will no doubt be for years to come. I hope that's confusing enough, lol!


----------



## Green

Also...

@g-man, as I understand it, this "blitz" is not intended to be one single program, but rather is the name that you've given to root-mass-building, recovery-promoting Fall fertilizer programs (especially those that utilize several applications), in general. And that it's something you intended people to be able to modify for their area, grass types, and cultural habits, but you've supplied the pertinent research to help them customize. Can you confirm this? If so, you might want to make that evident in the first few sentences of the write-up...that it's not one single specific program, but rather a collection of ideas that share a common principle (which you've already stated the goal of in your first paragraph...it's a subtle distinction).

Edited to add: There are multiple ways to achieve a similar goal, and people shouldn't be afraid to experiment within reason, if one version fits their lawn better than another. I've always loved creating my own versions of Fall fertilizing strategy.


----------



## osuturfman

Some great info from Dr. Doug Soldat (University of Wisconsin - Madison) on the latest research into late-season fertilization, specifically N and K apps.

https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


----------



## ken-n-nancy

osuturfman said:


> Some great info from Dr. Doug Soldat (University of Wisconsin - Madison) on the latest research into late-season fertilization, specifically N and K apps.
> 
> https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb


Wow, that IS latest news - that was just recorded TODAY!


----------



## g-man

@osuturfman this is great. I've been tracking soldat K research. Amazing that topdressig sand is providing K to the plant.

His research aligns with my observations, nitrogen after mid October(adjusting for Indy weather) is not that beneficial and that spoon feeding is best.

I've been keeping track on the work of Kreuser to track clipping yields to know when to fertilize.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> osuturfman this is great. I've been tracking soldat K research. Amazing that topdressig sand is providing K to the plant.
> 
> His research aligns with my observations, nitrogen after mid October(adjusting for Indy weather) is not that beneficial and that spoon feeding is best.
> 
> I've been keeping track on the work of Kreuser to track clipping yields to know when to fertilize.


@g-man, the latest Greens grade SOP I bought looks like glorified pink colored sand!


----------



## OnyxsLawn

Good to know that November N fertilization is 90% wasted. He does talk about too green with September N applications. Is that a thing!? Is he just saying in a golf course setting the extra green color isn't worth the money?


----------



## g-man

Remember that a lot of the research is geared towards golf course or athletic fields, but we benefit from the knowledge learned and extrapolate to our yards.

I think the green on a putting green could look too green. It is just a visual opinion because it then blends too much with the fairways.

One thing I do want to highlight, the research is mostly done on sands. I do have an *opinion* that heavy soils (high CEC like mine in the 22) could hold on to nitrogen over winter and make the green up/grow sooner. Around 32:05 you see that effect and members that have done the nitrogen after top grow has stopped could share the same observations. But, is it a significant difference that makes it worth it? In my yard, I could not notice a difference and I think the extra effort of doing that December application is not worth the effort.


----------



## g-man

@OnyxsLawn I moved the last posts to this thread to keep the content and conversation in the main thread.


----------



## MMoore

any of you guys water melt and spray your low rate urea apps to get an even coverage?


----------



## g-man

I weight it and use a scott wizz to spread it evenly. I normally use the 3 setting with my urea prill size. I then trigger the irrigation or time it with rain if possible.


----------



## ryeguy

I have some Scott's turf builder lawn food left over that I'd like to use to winterize if possible. I _can_ get urea and am willing to do so if using turf builder will give worse results.

It's 32-0-4 with 21% of that quick release (urea and ammoniacal nitrogen) and 11% slow release. For the purposes of N calculation for the nitrogen blitz, should I only count the quick release? Count the whole 32%? Something in between? Say "screw it" and pick up some urea instead?


----------



## g-man

Count it all.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I weight it and use a scott wizz to spread it evenly. I normally use the 3 setting with my urea prill size. I then trigger the irrigation or time it with rain if possible.


Similar approach here - I have a 5 gal bucket dedicated to Urea (I store the closed Urea bag in the bucket for convenience). I weighed out the 8 lbs that I need for my ~8k sq ft, dumped it into the bucket, and used a Sharpie to mark the inside of the bucket so that I have a "fill line" for future use. Now, when I do an app, I pour from the bag of Urea directly into the bucket up to the 8 lb "fill line" I drew inside the bucket.

Then, transfer from bucket into Scotts Edge Guard Mini (I believe my setting is 2.5) and spready away.


----------



## Mozart

If you are doing the blitz on 3 week old grass does it matter when you mow? Are you more likely to burn freshly mowed grass?

How long do you have to water it in before it will burn? Using 46-0-0


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Mozart said:


> If you are doing the blitz on 3 week old grass does it matter when you mow? Are you more likely to burn freshly mowed grass?
> 
> How long do you have to water it in before it will burn? Using 46-0-0


I don't think that time before/after mowing significantly affects the likelihood of fertilizer burn on grass. Baby grass is more susceptible to fertilizer burn.

If using a granular 46-0-0 product, it should be watered in until the granules have completely dissolved and are no longer visible. If you can still see granules, then you need to water more. Usually about 1/4" is sufficient.


----------



## aug0211

Mozart said:


> If you are doing the blitz on 3 week old grass does it matter when you mow? Are you more likely to burn freshly mowed grass?
> 
> How long do you have to water it in before it will burn? Using 46-0-0


Is this much N safe and desirable on such young grass? Are you risking pushing top growth on young grass that isn't ready?

Not being snarky - these are honest questions that I don't know the answer to


----------



## Harts

This came up in another thread. There are different ways to go about this.

@g-man has recommended 0.2lb N weekly starting week 3-4.

I just finished week 3 and put down 0.25lb N yesterday.

Purdue recommends 0.75lb - 1.0lb N in weeks 4-6 (that's one application in any of those weeks) and then another 0.75lb - 1.0lb N one month later. For example, you would do 1 lb in week 4 and another in week 8. Or one in week 6 and another in week 10.

Small doses of N will not hurt or burn young grass.

I can post the link for Purdue's rec later today when I get to my laptop, unless g-man beats me to it.

@Mozart I cut my grass yesterday and immediately followed up with my Urea app. As long as you water or apply before rain, you'll be fine.


----------



## aug0211

Harts said:


> This came up in another thread. There are different ways to go about this.
> 
> @g-man has recommended 0.2lb N weekly starting week 3-4.
> 
> I just finished week 3 and put down 0.25lb N yesterday.
> 
> Purdue recommends 0.75lb - 1.0lb N in weeks 4-6 (that's one application in any of those weeks) and then another 0.75lb - 1.0lb N one month later. For example, you would do 1 lb in week 4 and another in week 8. Or one in week 6 and another in week 10.
> 
> Small doses of N will not hurt or burn young grass.
> 
> I can post the link for Purdue's rec later today when I get to my laptop, unless g-man beats me to it.
> 
> @Mozart I cut my grass yesterday and immediately followed up with my Urea app. As long as you water or apply before rain, you'll be fine.


Very cool! Thank you for educating me.


----------



## Mozart

Thanks @Harts I mowed today and did the N blitz at 0.2#/k on 2/3 of my lawn. Watered in well, will finish he last 1/3 tomorrow. Can't wait to see the results!


----------



## Mozart

Using 46-0-0 at 0.2# N per 1000 sqft means spreading a small amount of product.

I like the Wizz but having trouble finding the right setting. For my first week I used setting #3, but it seems to go much faster when the edge guard is on versus broadcast. I might try #3 for the edges and 3.25-3.75 for the broadcast settings.

For folks who use the Wizz: what settings do you use?

Does anyone dissolve prills in a backpack sprayer? Is watering in easier/less important with liquid applications?


----------



## g-man

If you weight the product, then the wizz setting is not that important. Every urea is not created at the same prill size, humidity, etc, so your settings will be different than mine. Via weight, there is not much room for error.

Liquid means also weighting in the product, dissolving, applying at 2.5gallons/M. Then you need to irrigate to remove the fertilizer from the leaves to avoid burnt tips.


----------



## jessehurlburt

I still need to get a scale. How much urea will the wizz hold full. I understand there might be some variance, but looking for a rough idea..


----------



## Mozart

@jessehurlburt based on my prill size (about Milo sized) if I had to guess I would say 5-7 pounds of urea, maybe even a little more. It's generously sized - I remember fitting 5-6 pounds of KBG seed with room left over.

@g-man I didn't realize that prills size varies so much. I will experiment with a higher setting for broadcasting the middle next week.

How long after spoon feeding before you mow typically? Wondering how fast this stuff works and when I might be mowing again.


----------



## Harts

I just posted in the other thread but I'll mention here that I have the opposite issue with the wizz. With the edge guard on, I find less comes out than with it off.

Bottom line is everyone is going to have a different setting. As long as you are happy with the spread consistency and you see results....that's what matters.

@jessehurlburt if I had to guess, 5-7 lbs. But that's a guess. I had 1.25 lbs in there on Saturday and it was maybe a 1/4 full?????

Get a scale and measure!!!!!! Haha


----------



## Harts

@Mozart I am mowing tonight. I cut last Thursday at 2", spread Urea on Saturday. As of this morning, most blades are approaching 4".

Remember you watered in the Urea to dissolve it and it's a fast release source. I get out the tape measure and check your grass each day and record how fast it's growing.


----------



## Mozart

Harts said:


> @Mozart I am mowing tonight. I cut last Thursday at 2", spread Urea on Saturday. As of this morning, most blades are approaching 4".
> 
> Remember you watered in the Urea to dissolve it and it's a fast release source. I get out the tape measure and check your grass each day and record how fast it's growing.


Oh wow, that's pretty fast. I wonder if I will be able to find a good window for the second (and much more precise) Tenacity application while blitzing.

I've got a lot of baby creeping Charlie popping up in my side yard. :roll:

Good to see our estimates for volume are in the same ball park  at 7 pounds you could cover 16,000 sqft at 0.2#/1000 sqft!


----------



## Harts

> Good to see our estimates for volume are in the same ball park  at 7 pounds you could cover 16,000 sqft at 0.2#/1000 sqft!


Haha, I hit submit and then saw your answer. Totally pulled that number out of ***. I have enough Urea for 44 applications based on 0.25lb N.

My tenacity won't be going down for at least two weeks (4 weeks post germination).


----------



## someguybri

I am a little confused as how to make sure i am not putting down to much or not enough N using a Scott's Broadcaster.

If i weigh it out and know my lot size and do all my passes with broadcast spreader and still have more in the spreader do i just go back over the same area in try to redistribute the remaining N as evenly as i can until it is gone?

I think i just answered by own question but am not sure. I had some major fertilizer burn using a weed and feed application in May so i am extra cautious about not doing that again.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

someguybri said:


> I am a little confused as how to make sure i am not putting down to much or not enough N using a Scott's Broadcaster.
> 
> If i weigh it out and know my lot size and do all my passes with broadcast spreader and still have more in the spreader do i just go back over the same area in try to redistribute the remaining N as evenly as i can until it is gone?
> 
> I think i just answered by own question...


Yup! That's exactly what to do!

I always make fertilizer applications (or grass seed, for that matter) by weighing out the appropriate amount for an area, setting the spreader to the minimum setting that the product flows evenly from the spreader, and make a complete pass over the lawn at that very low setting. After completing that first pass over the appropriate area, I may turn up the setting a bit if I've only distributed about 1/3 of the product. My goal is usually to have the spreading rate be low enough to need two complete passes over the entire lawn (one north-to-south, and one east-to-west) with a little bit left over, which I can then kind of zoom around the areas I think might have gotten a little less.

The above approach minimizes accidents by spreading at "half rate" or less, so minor overlaps don't cause a problem. Making two complete sets of passes (N/S and E/W) helps avoid stripes from missed, or double-covered areas. (Although if one is real sloppy, it can result in a checkerboard pattern!)


----------



## someguybri

ken-n-nancy said:


> someguybri said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am a little confused as how to make sure i am not putting down to much or not enough N using a Scott's Broadcaster.
> 
> If i weigh it out and know my lot size and do all my passes with broadcast spreader and still have more in the spreader do i just go back over the same area in try to redistribute the remaining N as evenly as i can until it is gone?
> 
> I think i just answered by own question...
> 
> 
> 
> Yup! That's exactly what to do!
> 
> I always make fertilizer applications (or grass seed, for that matter) by weighing out the appropriate amount for an area, setting the spreader to the minimum setting that the product flows evenly from the spreader, and make a complete pass over the lawn at that very low setting. After completing that first pass over the appropriate area, I may turn up the setting a bit if I've only distributed about 1/3 of the product. My goal is usually to have the spreading rate be low enough to need two complete passes over the entire lawn (one north-to-south, and one east-to-west) with a little bit left over, which I can then kind of zoom around the areas I think might have gotten a little less.
> 
> The above approach minimizes accidents by spreading at "half rate" or less, so minor overlaps don't cause a problem. Making two complete sets of passes (N/S and E/W) helps avoid stripes from missed, or double-covered areas. (Although if one is real sloppy, it can result in a checkerboard pattern!)
Click to expand...

Perfect thanks, i need to get out a tape measurer and figure out my lawn size to make sure i follow this blitz accurately. I did just do Scotts Step 3 Saturday Sept 7th so i need to go back and figure out how much i did. Since i came to TLF this week I'm realizing scotts over charges and to prob steer clear. Even though looking at the scotts 4 step compared to the complete cool season lawn guide there are a lot of similarities. Looking forward to getting away from it none the less and learning more.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

someguybri said:


> Perfect thanks, i need to get out a tape measure and figure out my lawn size...


A tape measure works well, but I also have had good success with https://www.findlotsize.com

Scotts makes a good, quality product, but it is priced quite high unless you can find it at end-of-season clearance sales. Two things I like about Scotts fertilizers are the small, uniform prill size, which makes for more uniform distribution, and the fact that their potassium source is potassium sulfate (sulfate of potash) rather than potassium chloride (muriate of potash). However, I only use the Scotts fertilizers when I can get them at clearance prices.


----------



## Mozart

I thought I watered the urea in pretty well last weekend but today I noticed white spheres around the backyard. Are the prills supposed to completely dissolve with the watering or just make good soil contact?

If I see prills a week later would that mean I should wait for the next Nitrogen application?


----------



## GoPre

Mozart said:


> I thought I watered the urea in pretty well last weekend but today I noticed white spheres around the backyard. Are the prills supposed to completely dissolve with the watering or just make good soil contact?
> 
> If I see prills a week later would that mean I should wait for the next Nitrogen application?


I would confirm if you have a slow release, or percentage of slow release urea in your product.

I've noticed that even my morning dew is enough to break down urea.


----------



## Mozart

Hi @GoPre, I'm pretty sure I'm using 100% fast release. I'll drop a prill in a small cup of water to see how fast it dissolves.

Not seeing the results I would have expected with the Nitrogen blitz, but I'm only 1.5 weeks into it. I'll see if I can Post an example of what I see on the ground later.

How long can you leave prills unwatered before they burn/cause problems?


----------



## g-man

How much did you dropped and how much irrigation (in inches)?


----------



## Mozart

g-man said:


> How much did you dropped and how much irrigation (in inches)?


I went light and dropped 0.2#N/1000sqft and hand watered with a hose. I would say I spent about 30-45 minutes watering 1900 sqft. I was shooting for 1/4" and the hose was running at full output.


----------



## GoPre

@Mozart interesting...that's definitely fast release.

I would like someone with a better lawn-ed to answer your question, but I think you're safe within 24 hours?

I'm pretty curious here...I look forward to the discussion.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Mozart said:


> If I see prills a week later would that mean I should wait for the next Nitrogen application?


46-0-0 fast-release urea prill should break down completely and just be gone. They actually dissolve pretty quickly in water. Take and drop a couple in a bucket of water and look back again a while later; you should find that they have completely dissolved. Is it possible the ones that you're seeing there didn't get watered in? (A dry spot from the sprinkler?)


----------



## Mozart

It's possible that I missed a few spots, but after running the sprinklers today I still found a few I think.

Perhaps what I am seeing is small prill sized dog barf fungus outbreaks?

We are expecting gentle, all day rain tomorrow so this may be a good opportunity to put this week's N down. Is @GoPre correct that I have 24 hours to water it in? If so maybe I can spread it after work and let Mother Nature water it in overnight/into tomorrow. Is that reasonable and safe for the grass?


----------



## g-man

Could you grab it with your hands and squeeze it and try to see what it is?

You have days to water it. It wont harm your grass to leave it there. Rain (not a downpour) is a great way to water in the urea.


----------



## GoPre

g-man said:


> Could you grab it with your hands and squeeze it and try to see what it is?
> 
> You have days to water it. It wont harm your grass to leave it there. Rain (not a downpour) is a great way to water in the urea.


Correct me if I'm wrong, the real concern in watering in urea is with volatilization, not burn...correct?


----------



## Mozart

Awesome. I just mowed everything so I'll apply 0.25#/1000sqft tonight and let it rain in. Watering is the hardest part for me.

I'll try to take a closer look - prills would turn into white powder when crushed, I assume? What would DBF feel like, squishy?


----------



## g-man

Correct. Volatilization - in lay terms - a percent of the nitrogen escapes to the air instead into the soil. When treating acres of corn fields, a % of loss = money wasted. On a home lawn at ~$20 for 23lb of N, no so much.

Grab a prill from your bag and compare to what you are finding in your lawn.


----------



## Mozart

The stuff in the lawn is partly melted (if it is urea) but I will try to compare.

Would Nitrogen make fungal problems worse in fall (temps from 50-75)?

I treated this area with Azoxy and want to limit the die off (probably due to too much seed).


----------



## GoPre

g-man said:


> Correct. Volatilization - in lay terms - a percent of the nitrogen escapes to the air instead into the soil. When treating acres of corn fields, a % of loss = money wasted. On a home lawn at ~$20 for 23lb of N, no so much.
> 
> Grab a prill from your bag and compare to what you are finding in your lawn.


Got it...thanks @g-man


----------



## aug0211

I've see a few of my prills hang around for a while, too, in the past. Even after insane amounts of water (flooding, even).

Here's a shot of the product I use, Urea from ATS.


----------



## Harts

I hand water the Urea on my small reno and I find the urea dissolves almost as soon as the water hits it. When I'm done I don't see any prills sitting in the soil. I'm only talkign about 150sf or so and it takes me approx. 5 minutes to get everything dissolved.

On a side note, I notice the grass responds with much quicker growth on my established area then it does on my reno.


----------



## g-man

@aug0211 could you grab a solo cup and place a some urea prills with water to see if they all dissolve?


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> @aug0211 could you grab a solo cup and place a some urea prills with water to see if they all dissolve?


Great idea - will do this and report back. Just finished my last bag so have to get a refill. Littlest one has surgery today (right now) so most likely later this week.


----------



## NewLawnJon

Mozart said:


> The stuff in the lawn is partly melted (if it is urea) but I will try to compare.
> 
> Would Nitrogen make fungal problems worse in fall (temps from 50-75)?
> 
> I treated this area with Azoxy and want to limit the die off (probably due to too much seed).


I have read the lawns that are high on N are more prone to fungus. I picked up a fungus this fall after starting the nitrogen blitz, but it also helps your lawn outgrow treated funguses.


----------



## ryeguy

The main post says to use a spoon feeding approach for overseeded lawns, but when does that start? After the first mow?

Also, could I do the 0.5 lb/k/wk approach or is that too much for young grass?


----------



## g-man

After 30 days from *germination *0.25lb N/k.

You could try the 0.5, but I read conflicting reports. Most reports I read do recommend an agrressive spring fertilization.


----------



## ryeguy

g-man said:


> After 30 days from *germination *0.25lb N/k.
> 
> You could try the 0.5, but I read conflicting reports. Most reports I read do recommend an agrressive spring fertilization.


Aggressive *spring* fertilization? Did you mean fall here? Hadn't heard of aggressive springtime fertilization before.


----------



## GrassDaddy

Yes, I did the aggressive spring nitrogen after my Reno and it did wonders.


----------



## ryeguy

GrassDaddy said:


> Yes, I did the aggressive spring nitrogen after my Reno and it did wonders.


Interesting, did you use the same rate as the aggressive fall program? When did you start, from first mow of the season?


----------



## g-man

On a new lawn, the spring after seems to respond better to nitrogen than the fall.

Here is a presentation explain the effects of nitrogen rate on fall and spring renos. You could also find Hoiberg thesis online and it has more information and recommendations.

http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/Conference/2012_Conference/Hoiberg.pdf

PS. His research was geared towards athletic fields, not home lawns.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

g-man said:


> Here is a presentation explain the effects of nitrogen rate on fall and spring renos. You could also find Hoiberg thesis online and it has more information and recommendations.


Wow. The nitrogen rates in the "initial study" of that experiment applied to newly-seeded KBG are incredible, and make the "aggressive nitrogen blitz" seem like child's play -- 10#N/ksqft in 8 weeks! That's 1.25#N/ksqft each week for 8 weeks! Interestingly enough, there looks to be significant improvement, with 10 > 8 > 6 > 4 > 2.

It's also interesting that the later study (in section 3 of the slides) didn't seem to show a significant difference between 2#, 4#, 6#, 8# in terms of "percentage cover" but that the report speculated that the difference may have been masked by their very high seeding rate in that study (5#KBG/ksqft).


----------



## osuturfman

g-man said:


> On a new lawn, the spring after seems to respond better to nitrogen than the fall.
> 
> Here is a presentation explain the effects of nitrogen rate on fall and spring renos. You could also find Hoiberg thesis online and it has more information and recommendations.
> 
> http://www.stma.org/sites/stma/files/Conference/2012_Conference/Hoiberg.pdf
> 
> PS. His research was geared towards athletic fields, not home lawns.


Good stuff.

I think what he was trying to simulate in a condensed study was the relationship, or lack thereof, between seeding rate and N apps with the spin of "seed banking". Seed banking, or slowly adding small amounts of seed over the course of the season, has been a popular tactic in Sports Turf for the last 15 or so years. On a HS football field for instance, rather than one heavy overseeding of 20 lb/M at some point during the season, a seed banking approach would have you putting down 2 lb/M of seed each week for 10 weeks. So what Dr. Hoiberg tried to simulate was the seed banking effect on a compressed timetable where a turf system is loaded up with seed and plenty of fertilizer.

From a more global viewpoint, pushing grass to fill in at the right time is important and effective so long as the tradeoffs are marginalized. Whenever you push top growth, you're sacrificing root growth and vice versa. Having done this for quite a while, I can say that slow and steady wins the race, even if you have to pull over and overseed in the spring.


----------



## g-man

To me this graph in the theses is the important one in regards to how much N to apply during a reno. The total of 2lb/M in 8 weeks (0.25N/M weekly) had the most coverage and by doing more it actually hurt coverage. This was part of the research that only looked at nitorgen (no seed banking), in page 67 in his thesis.

​


> Increases above 100 kg total N ha-1 had negative effects on both color and cover of both species. ... Regardless, 100 kg
> total N ha-1 over the course of eight weeks appeared to provide maximum color and cover during fall establishment in both species. - Dr. Hoiberg thesis Page 103


The way I see it, it is like feeding a 1month old baby. You could try to give it 10oz of milk every 2hrs, but it is not going to be good since it cant handle that much milk when it is so young. A young grass doesnt have the leaf surface area or root mass to handle too much nitrogen. While we want coverage, a robust root system and crown are more important for winter survival.

Therefore to answer the original question from @ryeguy , yes you can go to 0.5N/M/weekly, but based on this research, it might not be the optimal approach for spreading.


----------



## Wlodyd

Hey @g-man , I've got a question on the late fall nitrogen application. I'm a little confused about your "PS2" note in the blitz guide... so should I just completely skip the late Nitrogen application?

I just put down 1lbN/M late last week. My grass is growing like a fiend, I need to cut it every two days now it seems. Should I just be done putting down N for the year?


----------



## g-man

@Wlodyd In simple terms, keep applying Nitrogen at weekly rates until around your average first frost day (~26OCT).

After that you have a choice: 1) Stop with nitrogen for the remaining of the year; or 2) Do a final application/watering of a high dose of nitrogen within two weeks after your grass *stops* growing. Since we have similar weathers, this would be the last week of Nov or the first one of Dec.

I recommend you do option 1. Which is what I'm going to do.


----------



## Wlodyd

alright, thanks! That's what I was looking to do and just skip the late fall application. I was feeling a little bummed thinking I was done with fert for the year tho... I'll get some more urea and put it down at around the 0.5lb/M rate per week for a few more weeks.


----------



## Mozart

I'm curious about something:

What is the reason for "the break" - stopping the urea at the first frost, mowing for another month, then winterizing with more urea?

Why not fertilize weekly until the winterizing app?


----------



## g-man

The idea is let the grass slow down and place it's energy into the roots. The name of the game is carb storage to survive winter, spring green up and be ready for summer.

Soldat research threw some light into this practice.


----------



## Green

Mozart said:


> I'm curious about something:
> 
> What is the reason for "the break" - stopping the urea at the first frost, mowing for another month, then winterizing with more urea?
> 
> Why not fertilize weekly until the winterizing app?


Having practiced this for over 5 years, I will say it generally works nicely.

However, there is apparently a time and place for continuing to fertilize through the slowdown period or part of it...but it's done with very low amounts of soluble N in a liquid form. See my thread in the fertility forum for more information. I am learning more as I go, too, and received some good information in how to continue spoon-feeding as per my goal of giving new grass the best chance of thriving this Fall and surviving the Winter. Note, this is not part of the "blitz" program.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Soldat research threw some light into this practice.


Does he have any research on the method I'm going to be using that I was discussing in the other thread?


----------



## g-man

No. He applied liquid nitrogen, but then water it.


----------



## JDgreen18

So the rule of thumb is to stop feeding after the first frost. So if I just got a frost last night I guess Im done. I was planning on doing one more app this weekend before the temps dipped to 30 degress last night...


----------



## g-man

JDgreen18 said:


> So the rule of thumb is to stop feeding after the first frost. So if I just got a frost last night I guess Im done. I was planning on doing one more app this weekend before the temps dipped to 30 degress last night...


No. After the * average * first frost. Not the actual first frost. Actual air temp are not important.


----------



## JDgreen18

@g-man ahhh ok I get it now its more about the time of year and not the temp. 
So this is my expected frost dates I can maybe even push it for 2 more weeks if I want.


----------



## g-man

:thumbup: Around 04Nov for you. Keyword, around. I think it is best to use soil temp, but i havent found a good reference to use (eg. stop when soil temps are below 9C at 4in depth)


----------



## ksturfguy

@g-man I kind of skimmped through this entire thread awhile ago so maybe don't remember seeing it but this Nitrogen Blitz plan you developed, is this just from tests you have done that worked or just based off university type research. Just curious what made you go this route (the spoon feeding) vs say 1 LB of N in Sept, 1 LB N in OCT and 1 LB N in NOV route.


----------



## g-man

This is based on multiple sources and members practices. It was a collaboration with multiple members. I've done this approach for years. I've done the 1lb route and the 0.25lb and everything in between. I just like the control the 0.25 gives me (I can stop if needed).

Last year, I skipped the last application (December for me) in a test area based on Univ research. It worked good, so this year I will skip it for the whole lawn. I know other members have skipped it too just because could not get the timing right.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> :thumbup: Around 04Nov for you. Keyword, around. I think it is best to use soil temp, but i havent found a good reference to use (eg. stop when soil temps are below 9C at 4in depth)


@JDgreen18, you're near the coast, right? I tend to believe that 04 November date. It's the same as my aunt and uncle's. They are in zone 7a, and about 2 miles from the water. Early November for their area. Mid to late October for my area about 15 miles North.


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Last year, I skipped the last application (December for me) in a test area based on Univ research. It worked good, so this year I will skip it for the whole lawn. I know other members have skipped it too just because could not get the timing right.


If spoon feeding, the grass is likely maxed out already anyway so it may not make a difference to top it off via final winterizer app. In effect, you've already winterized, an idea which the studies you've been reading support.

I have cut my final app to 2/3 and even 0.5 lb N, and do not see a large drop in early Spring performance, but that was when I did some spoon feeding apps (though not every week prior to avg. First frost necessarily).

We will see how the half rate Winterizer app does without spoon feeding this year. My guess is, it will do well.


----------



## Green

@g-man, maybe I should do a small test plot or two under the same conditions, but using the full 1 lb to see if it behaves differently from everywhere else gerting the half rate. I'll consider it if the logistics work out.

How did you mark you test area?


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> I think it is best to use soil temp, but i havent found a good reference to use (eg. stop when soil temps are below 9C at 4in depth)


I'm going to try to get some data on this from my yard and compare to past notes. Anyone else?


----------



## Alpine

We've had frost during the past week. Done with the weekly urea, now waiting for the slow-down and final winterizing application - probably 1st week of December. Will be putting down some lime in the next couple of weeks.


----------



## outdoorsmen

Frosted last night but im not gonna stop. 10 day outlook says mid to upper 50s everyday


----------



## g-man

More discussion on Doug Soldat research with some homelawn application (nitrogen and potassium). Cornell turftalk:

https://soundcloud.com/user-172152838/turftalk-presented-by-winfield-united-episode-24


----------



## GoPre

I spoon fed .5 lb N/K weekly since August 15th. I am currently in the pause, as my last app was on October 10th, so I've laid 4.5 lbs. of N/K. Lawn looks phenomenal.

I was planning on a final lb./K in a few weeks...but now you all have me curious. I've already laid a ton of nitrogen, and understand it may not be necessary. My question now is, let's say I do go ahead with the final app in a few weeks, are there any negative consequences, other than being wasteful? (Waste is a legitimate concern of mine as well, to be clear.)

I look forward to the discussion on skipping. You guys are awesome.


----------



## g-man

Based on the research, no negative consequences.


----------



## osuturfman

GoPre said:


> I spoon fed .5 lb N/K weekly since August 15th. I am currently in the pause, as my last app was on October 10th, so I've laid 4.5 lbs. of N/K. Lawn looks phenomenal.
> 
> I was planning on a final lb./K in a few weeks...but now you all have me curious. I've already laid a ton of nitrogen, and understand it may not be necessary. My question now is, let's say I do go ahead with the final app in a few weeks, are there any negative consequences, other than being wasteful? (Waste is a legitimate concern of mine as well, to be clear.)
> 
> I look forward to the discussion on skipping. You guys are awesome.


Somewhere between 75%-90% of the N in your proposed application will not make it into the plant or be available in the soil next spring. It will leach.


----------



## krusej23

Very interesting conversation on this podcast about fall nitrogen. You can listen to the whole thing because it's all interesting but also could start around the 5:00 minute mark for fall nitrogen. https://soundcloud.com/user-172152838/turftalk-presented-by-winfield-united-episode-24


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> Based on the research, no negative consequences.


Does fungus come in to play at all? I don't want to cause confusion and spread misinformation. I had thought there was a suspected (proven? Can't remember) correlation between the amount of N dropped and fungus. I ask because you know I had rust issues this year and have been on the fence about how much N to put down.


----------



## aug0211

krusej23 said:


> Very interesting conversation on this podcast about fall nitrogen. You can listen to the whole thing because it's all interesting but also could start around the 5:00 minute mark for fall nitrogen.
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/user-172152838%2Fturftalk-presented-by-winfield-united-episode-24


That was awesome. Thank you for sharing it!


----------



## Green

krusej23 said:


> Very interesting conversation on this podcast about fall nitrogen. You can listen to the whole thing because it's all interesting but also could start around the 5:00 minute mark for fall nitrogen.
> 
> __
> https://soundcloud.com/user-172152838%2Fturftalk-presented-by-winfield-united-episode-24


Listened. I took away that if you're set on doing late season N with a granular app (such as final winterizer), there is no reason to use more than 0.5 lb N (and good reasons not to use more...or even any at all, if you don't need it).

This confirms what I found through my own experience the last few years, during which I had mostly used 0.5 to 0.67 lb N for my final winterizer app (down from the full 1 lb I used in the previous years). This is enough support that I feel comfortable going down to 0.5 lb N on all my lawn areas this year.


----------



## GoPre

Very interesting stuff, thanks for the replies everyone.


----------



## gm560

Potentially stupid question regarding when to stop weekly apps of N.

I am 60 days since seed down on a 100% KBG reno. Since 30 days, I have been doing 0.25 /k weekly. Kicked it up to 0.50 last weekend. I would love to keep pushing growth, as I have a few thin spots I would like to fill in. Here in Central NJ we have had a few nights approaching freezing (33/34 in forecasts). I haven't seen any actual frost on my lawn in the mornings, although I have seen it on neighbors lawns. Not sure how this is possible.... maybe they watered?

Would it be a mistake to keep spoon feeding this weekend and maybe beyond? If so, why? Is it detrimental to the lawn or just of minimal benefit and a waste of product? I am less concerned about wasting the cost of an app if there would be any benefit whatsoever.


----------



## dongdong

Just finished with my lawn Reno. Its been 5 weeks and just had my first cut yesterday. Since its already October, is it too late to put down an application? or should I wait for next year? The average frost date for us starts in december. The temps right now are lows at night around 49, and highs of 76.

I have ammonium sulfate, can I mix this into a hand sprayer and spray? or would the granular be more effective?


----------



## g-man

Don't follow the general calendar days we use in the Midwest. Your climate is different. Keep applying until your average first frost.


----------



## kolbasz

What is the best plan to kick start after the blitz.

Typically I do pre-m and starter, but that's before I did the blitz. Should I change my plans this year?


----------



## g-man

I normally let my lawn wake up on its own without pushing any nitrogen until mid May. Nitrogen will push for the plant to use the reserved carbs. In the videos above, Doug Soldat showed the option of a single 0.5lb N/ksqft in the spring to help with color.


----------



## kolbasz

Really? Ok, just need to resist the urge.

So mid May do a N app like starter or any typical spring fert?


----------



## g-man

I use simple Ammonium sulfate. That's it.


----------



## kolbasz

g-man said:


> I use simple Ammonium sulfate. That's it.


Really? So just you do pre m , nitrogen blitz and the tlf ASF and that's it eh?

Who would have thunk


----------



## CPA Nerd

Would this stuff work fine for the fall nitrogen blitz?

https://www.amazon.com/Urea-46-0-0-Nitrogen-Fertilizer-20LBS/dp/B005IAYANK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2TP887SIG2GP5&keywords=urea+nitrogen+fertilizer&qid=1562860943&s=gateway&sprefix=urea+nitrogen+%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-5

I would probably use Milorganite in August while it's still hot, then in September and October apply this stuff at 1 lb N, then a winterizer type fertilizer with some potassium around Thanksgiving.

Anything glaringly wrong with that? Where would my Pre-M + fertilizer fit in to this plan? I don't want to overapply N.

Maybe Pre-m and Milorganite in August, and then cut this stuff down to 0.75 lb N in September and October as to not overapply Nitrogen?


----------



## pennstater2005

CPA Nerd said:


> Would this stuff work fine for the fall nitrogen blitz?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Urea-46-0-0-Nitrogen-Fertilizer-20LBS/dp/B005IAYANK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2TP887SIG2GP5&keywords=urea+nitrogen+fertilizer&qid=1562860943&s=gateway&sprefix=urea+nitrogen+%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-5
> 
> I would probably use Milorganite in August while it's still hot, then in September and October apply this stuff at 1 lb N, then a winterizer type fertilizer with some potassium around Thanksgiving.
> 
> Anything glaringly wrong with that? Where would my Pre-M + fertilizer fit in to this plan? I don't want to overapply N.
> 
> Maybe Pre-m and Milorganite in August, and then cut this stuff down to 0.75 lb N in September and October as to not overapply Nitrogen?


Yes that would work. I can get 50# at a local farm/feed store for about $13 though. I would call around and see if you can find a local co-op place.


----------



## CPA Nerd

pennstater2005 said:


> CPA Nerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would this stuff work fine for the fall nitrogen blitz?
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Urea-46-0-0-Nitrogen-Fertilizer-20LBS/dp/B005IAYANK/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2TP887SIG2GP5&keywords=urea+nitrogen+fertilizer&qid=1562860943&s=gateway&sprefix=urea+nitrogen+%2Caps%2C136&sr=8-5
> 
> I would probably use Milorganite in August while it's still hot, then in September and October apply this stuff at 1 lb N, then a winterizer type fertilizer with some potassium around Thanksgiving.
> 
> Anything glaringly wrong with that? Where would my Pre-M + fertilizer fit in to this plan? I don't want to overapply N.
> 
> Maybe Pre-m and Milorganite in August, and then cut this stuff down to 0.75 lb N in September and October as to not overapply Nitrogen?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes that would work. I can get 50# at a local farm/feed store for about $13 though. I would call around and see if you can find a local co-op place.
Click to expand...

Thanks. How do I coordinate using a Pre-M+Fertilizer, Winterizer with potassium and Milorganite into the fall nitrogen blitz, without overapplying nitrogen?

Can I skip the urea and just do something like:

August: Pre-M + Fertilizer (0.80 lbs N)
September: Milorganite (0.75 lbs N)
October: Winterizer (for potassium) (0.80 lbs N)

This is 2.35 lbs of N in three months (which I know is not quite 1 lb per rolling month), plus what I've applied so far (1.8) for a total of 4.15 lbs N in a year. I wouldn't want to go much higher than that, would I?

How critical is it to have fast release N for the nitrogen blitz?


----------



## Green

CPA Nerd said:


> How do I coordinate using a Pre-M+Fertilizer, Winterizer with potassium and Milorganite into the fall nitrogen blitz, without overapplying nitrogen?
> 
> Can I skip the urea and just do something like:
> 
> August: Pre-M + Fertilizer (0.80 lbs N)
> September: Milorganite (0.75 lbs N)
> October: Winterizer (for potassium) (0.80 lbs N)
> 
> This is 2.35 lbs of N in three months (which I know is not quite 1 lb per rolling month), plus what I've applied so far (1.8) for a total of 4.15 lbs N in a year. I wouldn't want to go much higher than that, would I?
> 
> How critical is it to have fast release N for the nitrogen blitz?


I'd recommend doing Potassium in the Summer instead of Fall, because it'll help it with drought and heat stress. Especially if you can get SOP, since there's lower burn potential. (MOP can burn the grass bad in the heat.) But I don't do much with Potassium after early September or so, just in case it worsens snow mold problems later on if used too close to Winter.

You can use mixes of N with a little slow release added in, but it actually takes a little bit of experience to get a feel for how the different slow release chemistries/technologies react and how long they last, so you don't double up by applying another app before the previous one has diminished to an extent.

Also, are you sure your lawn will be ready for a lot of fertilizer in August? Here, August can still be in the 90s, and I assume it's the same there.

In mid September, I'd recommend a mix of both fast and slow release N. You can actually make your own by applying half Milorganite and half conventional fast release N like Urea.


----------



## john5246

chrismar said:


> I know we're trying to steer clear of Mr. Wiz, but "the slow down" doesn't quite roll off the tongue like "the pause".


Is everyone here because they handle the passive-aggressive Wizard at the other site? I was banned from there for making a post about why we shouldn't horde milorganite and people that do so are nuts...that people should only buy what they need.


----------



## BobRoss

So I think I will not be doing the fast release since I just overseeded some TTTF last Saturday and don't wait to hurt the new grass. But, I did do some top dressing with some compost and also used Scotts starter fert with weed preventer. I am wondering if you can over-fertilize a lawn with too much nitrogen during the growing season without actually burning it. Like, at what point should I be saying ok, that is way too much fert this year? like 5lbs, 6, 7lbs? Is there such a thing as too much before burning?


----------



## g-man

Grass does really get burned. The salts from the nitrogen screw up the roots ability to absorb water. So the plant dies by dehydration.

There are way to avoid "burn", which involves more frequent and more water. But going crazy on nitrogen on a new or old lawn sacrifices root carbohydrates storage and development.


----------



## MMoore

What's the normal tipping point?
4lbs/yr, ya?


----------



## ram82

was thinking of giving this a try this year.doesnt putting nitrogen on lawn create surge growth and cause problems as your trying to lower height of cut as stated in first page?or does most of the nitrogen go to summer repair?just wondering.thank you


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> There are way to avoid "burn", which involves more frequent and more water. But going crazy on nitrogen on a new or old lawn sacrifices root carbohydrates storage and development.


As far as old lawns, I think some of the issue is shallow roots due to thatch, which then get burned out by the salts easier. But a well-managed older lawn won't have lots of thatch. It also shouldn't need tons of N either, because the soil should be in better shape and have more ability to hold nutrients over time.


----------



## BobRoss

g-man said:


> Grass does really get burned. The salts from the nitrogen screw up the roots ability to absorb water. So the plant dies by dehydration.
> 
> There are way to avoid "burn", which involves more frequent and more water. But going crazy on nitrogen on a new or old lawn sacrifices root carbohydrates storage and development.


Without visible signs of the grass being burned, is there a point where there is just too many lbs of nitrogen being put down? I am already at roughly 5.5lbs this year. Not 100% on the amount due to guesstimation on the compost I used. Without the compost, I am at 4lbs.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

BobRoss said:


> Without visible signs of the grass being burned, is there a point where there is just too many lbs of nitrogen being put down? I am already at roughly 5.5lbs this year. Not 100% on the amount due to guesstimation on the compost I used. Without the compost, I am at 4lbs.


Applications of nitrogen fertilizer to a lawn are essentially a "throttle pedal" for growth. In general, the more nitrogen applied, the faster the grass grows. Whether that is a good or a bad thing depends upon the availability of other nutrients, one's objectives, and one's willingness to scale up all other maintenance actions with a faster-growing grass.

How much nitrogen is "too much" is a politically-charged topic. Some would argue that the slowest-possible grass growth that looks "good enough" (or "sufficient") is the best thing. A slower-growing turf has a lower environmental impact -- less fertilizer used, less gasoline to run maintenance equipment, less time spent on lawn care. On the other hand, the faster the grass grows (if properly supplied with all the other needed nutrients, water, and light to sustain that growth), the faster it spreads into thin areas, the more dense the turf becomes, the more effectively it can out-compete weeds that don't respond as well to the high nitrogen levels, and the more quickly organic material levels can be improved in topsoil through root cycling and grass clippings being returned to the soil.

On Kentucky bluegrass, I have seen studies that report practically linear growth rate with nitrogen application, with high efficiency of turf usage (> 80%) of applied nitrogen at annual rates up to 12 pounds/ksqft, which was the maximum level of the study. The plot was even such that it seemed that even more would continue to result in faster-growing grass without a reduction in fertilization efficiency. Basically, the more nitrogen that is applied, the faster the grass grows, at least up to 12 pounds/ksqft annually on KBG.

However, the environmental impact of having a lawn increases at such high growth rates -- the lawn needs more of all the other nutrients to sustain a high growth rate, more mowing, more water, etc. However, if you have a short-term objective of helping establishment of a new lawn, the high growth rate can definitely speed up the process, as long as all the other needed care is being provided, too.


----------



## CPA Nerd

Green said:


> CPA Nerd said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do I coordinate using a Pre-M+Fertilizer, Winterizer with potassium and Milorganite into the fall nitrogen blitz, without overapplying nitrogen?
> 
> Can I skip the urea and just do something like:
> 
> August: Pre-M + Fertilizer (0.80 lbs N)
> September: Milorganite (0.75 lbs N)
> October: Winterizer (for potassium) (0.80 lbs N)
> 
> This is 2.35 lbs of N in three months (which I know is not quite 1 lb per rolling month), plus what I've applied so far (1.8) for a total of 4.15 lbs N in a year. I wouldn't want to go much higher than that, would I?
> 
> How critical is it to have fast release N for the nitrogen blitz?
> 
> 
> 
> I'd recommend doing Potassium in the Summer instead of Fall, because it'll help it with drought and heat stress. Especially if you can get SOP, since there's lower burn potential. (MOP can burn the grass bad in the heat.) But I don't do much with Potassium after early September or so, just in case it worsens snow mold problems later on if used too close to Winter.
> 
> You can use mixes of N with a little slow release added in, but it actually takes a little bit of experience to get a feel for how the different slow release chemistries/technologies react and how long they last, so you don't double up by applying another app before the previous one has diminished to an extent.
> 
> Also, are you sure your lawn will be ready for a lot of fertilizer in August? Here, August can still be in the 90s, and I assume it's the same there.
> 
> In mid September, I'd recommend a mix of both fast and slow release N. You can actually make your own by applying half Milorganite and half conventional fast release N like Urea.
Click to expand...

I actually decided to skip the fall pre-m. I don't think it's necessary.

I am going to put down 0.50 lb N organic and 0.5 lb N synthetic in September after it cools off. Then 1 lb synthetic in October and again in November, both fast release.


----------



## BobRoss

Thanks Ken, that was an awesome explanation. 12 lbs is nuts! I couldn't imagine the upkeep!


----------



## ken-n-nancy

BobRoss said:


> Thanks Ken, that was an awesome explanation. 12 lbs is nuts! I couldn't imagine the upkeep!


You think 12 pounds / ksqft is nuts -- in the study, the tested application rates for creeping bentgrass went all the way up to *20 pounds / ksqft annually*!

Even at that preposterous 20 pounds / ksqft / year, the grass kept growing faster and faster the more N was applied!

As long as the applications are sufficiently small to prevent burning (but very frequent), more N resulted in more growth from the grass.

Remember that there is a downside though -- applying more N means the grass needs more of everything else, too. If the grass isn't getting everything else it needs, you'll have fast-growing grass (due to the high N applications) that is deficient in something else, which essentially makes for sick fast-growing grass.

Of course, it is better to have healthy slow-growing grass, than sick fast-growing grass.

However, if you want to grow grass fast, give the grass everything it needs, and it can sustain amazing healthy growth. Sod farmers do it every year -- from bare soil to sod better than 95% of lawns in about 9 months.

Another way to think of the fact that more N gives more grass growth even above and beyond typical fertilization practices is that conventional N fertilization rates are purposely designed to give suboptimal growth rates and N deficiency as a normal condition. In other words, "... under normal fertilization practices, turfgrass is continuously N deficient from the perspective of clipping production..." (I should note that I can't take credit for these conclusions - the quote is from the article documenting the study I mentioned above.)

Saying that the *conventional recommended nitrogen fertilization practices are "continuously N deficient"* isn't exactly politically correct, but it's the truth. However, actually applying that much nitrogen annually to a home lawn is illegal in many (most?) states.


----------



## Green

ken-n-nancy said:


> Some would argue that the slowest-possible grass growth that looks "good enough" (or "sufficient") is the best thing. A slower-growing turf has a lower environmental impact -- less fertilizer used, less gasoline to run maintenance equipment, less time spent on lawn care.


And that's why I don't generally go crazy in the blitz, unless it's really necessary. With small doses that include a slow release component, I've seen grass recover from stresses, spread to fill in gaps, and turn a nicer color...all without much or any extra topgrowth in some cases.

That's why some of us have used PGRs...but withholding Nitrogen during certain seasons or only using lower amounts at those times is a valid strategy for controlling growth, too.

My goal is not to have it grow super fast and then have to mow more than 1.5x per week. I'm usually at 3-4 lbs N total per year, and often at the low end of that, with about half of that from natural N sources such as Milorganite, etc. There are exceptions though. But I'm no longer just doing an intense Fall program to see what it does...I've done that, and know what it does now. Only if/when certain areas need it.


----------



## fusebox7

@Green that is my #1 driver for a reno of what is otherwise a very nice fully Northern Mix stand. It grows SO fast and I've only microdosed the N twice and I am barely irrigating (it's very wilty and brown currently). I am worried about keeping up with it because currently I mow TWICE a week and I am still taking off way way too much - I can't believe it. I really really miss the slow growth of the elite KBG... I am building a stronger and stronger case for getting back to what I know and like.


----------



## Green

CPA Nerd said:


> I am going to put down 0.50 lb N organic and 0.5 lb N synthetic in September after it cools off. Then 1 lb synthetic in October and again in November, both fast release.


I would urge you to reconsider if those are single applications. Here is why:

Latest science (e.g. podcasts that G-man has linked to, and some are in loam soil, not just sand greens) tells us that Larger applications in October and November are often underutilized, or at worst, can interfere with late-season growth patterns (slowing down of growth can be later than it should be, is my takeaway).

My own strategy when not using a blitz type program, is similar to what you said in September...about 1 lb total N, split between slow/organic and fast/synthetic. In October, I might not add more, but if I do, it's going to be a few weeks before the grass wants to really slow down.

Then in late November or early December, I do a final application of only 0.5 lb N. Most use fast release, but I use a blend with a bit of slow release as well, and I like the results. Some of it stays there until Spring. The science says 0.5 lb N is more than sufficient at this that time of the year, and more is just wasted due to denitrification and leaching.

But my goal is at least 3 lbs per year, with 1 lb of that in late Spring. So, however I have to split it up, I do.

Again, this is the non-blitz approach I use.

If using a blitz approach, I will typically apply a total of 1 lb in Sept. and another full 1 lb on Oct., but in smaller applications. That's the key...smaller apps.


----------



## beardizzle1

BobRoss said:


> Without visible signs of the grass being burned, is there a point where there is just too many lbs of nitrogen being put down? I am already at roughly 5.5lbs this year. Not 100% on the amount due to guesstimation on the compost I used. Without the compost, I am at 4lbs.


Look at university studies and what they recommend for your grass type. I live in central Indiana and use the Purdue website. They have a lot of good information.


----------



## Green

beardizzle1 said:


> BobRoss said:
> 
> 
> 
> Without visible signs of the grass being burned, is there a point where there is just too many lbs of nitrogen being put down? I am already at roughly 5.5lbs this year. Not 100% on the amount due to guesstimation on the compost I used. Without the compost, I am at 4lbs.
> 
> 
> 
> Look at university studies and what they recommend for your grass type. I live in central Indiana and use the Purdue website. They have a lot of good information.
Click to expand...

Most grass types recommend 2-6 lbs per year. That includes newer KBG varietites, some TTTF varieties, and most Perennial Ryegrass. 3 lbs is generally the accepted norm.


----------



## Devil

Hey guys, for N, this is what I've started doing. Am I correct with the measurements?


----------



## g-man

453g = 1lb of urea =0.5lb of N for 1ksqft. Yes, but weekly is the aggressive path. Just an FYI


----------



## Devil

g-man said:


> 453g = 1lb of urea =0.5lb of N for 1ksqft. Yes, but weekly is the aggressive path. Just an FYI


Got it. So maybe I'll do it every other Monday. All the way till end of October.


----------



## john5246

I don't mind spreading Urea each week so is better to do 1/4lb of urea /1000 sq ft per week? This equals the total as laid out on in the first post @g-man

We are simply splitting it to a weekly app at the same rate of 1lb of N/1000 sq ft.

Basically I want to reduce the risk of burn (front lawn) and also want more consistent N for the grass to utilize


----------



## g-man

You can, but it gets hard to spread the small amounts. You need 1/2lb of urea to get 1/4 of N.


----------



## john5246

g-man said:


> You can, but it gets hard to spread the small amounts. You need 1/2lb of urea to get 1/4 of N.


I know what you mean, I'll be using a hand spreader, it's over 2000 sq ft all in a square shape so it's not too hard I hope. I'll find out in a week and report back.

and yes since the Urea is about 50% it will require 0.5lbs per week per 1000 sq ft.


----------



## GoPre

Dropped .5 N/K tonight, but used a new bag of urea from a different supplier. The prill size was much smaller and caught me off guard a little. I didn't get near the typical coverage that I am used to. Over applied abit. Shouldn't harm anything, but I might skip next weeks application. Anyone think that's an overreaction?


----------



## Green

GoPre said:


> Dropped .5 N/K tonight, but used a new bag of urea from a different supplier. The prill size was much smaller and caught me off guard a little. I didn't get near the typical coverage that I am used to. Over applied abit. Shouldn't harm anything, but I might skip next weeks application. Anyone think that's an overreaction?


If you were planning to apply again next week, then yes, I agree with skipping. But many people apply at a frequency of every 2 weeks regardless.


----------



## john5246

What do you guys do about the Potassium during the fall nitrogen blitz? All the "winterizer" types of fertilizer will have it. It's important to apply some around fall isn't it? @g-man


----------



## saidtheblueknight

john5246 said:


> What do you guys do about the Potassium during the fall nitrogen blitz? All the "winterizer" types of fertilizer will have it. It's important to apply some around fall isn't it? @g-man


That's why I tend to use a general purpose/starter fert in the fall instead of 46-0-0 urea. Puts down some P for the vigorous root growth that happens in the fall and K for recovery from summer heat. There's plenty of urea/N in regular fertelizer.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Urea or AS is what you want for the fall blitz and they contain no K. You can still apply potassium now but you don't want to be applying too late in the season as study's have shown a increase risk of snow mold the following season.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

john5246 said:


> What do you guys do about the Potassium during the fall nitrogen blitz? All the "winterizer" types of fertilizer will have it. It's important to apply some around fall isn't it?


Due to conflicting recommendations regarding potassium application on northern cool season lawns, this is a topic that I've read a fair bit on during the last few years. I don't have the time today for a lengthy posting, but from what I have read in past years, below is a quick off-the-top-of-my-head summary:

1 -The inclusion of elevated potassium in traditional "Winterizer" fertilizers is based upon old recommendations which found that increased potassium in warm season (southern) grasses would increase winterkill resistance. In other words, grasses like bermuda would have increased cold resistance with elevated potassium levels. This finding was applied to all grasses in general, promoting the use of potassium in "Winterizer" fertilizers.

2 - More recent research within the past two decades has shown increased snow mold damage in cool season lawns fertilized with potassium in late fall. See https://www.paceturf.org/gallery/detail/snow-mold-and-potassium for a quick "picture is worth a thousand words" summary.

3 - Manufacturers continue to market and sell cool-season "Winterizer" fertilizers with increased potassium because it's what consumers buy in the fall. Having different "seasonal" fertilizer products increases the amount of fertilizer that consumers purchase, rather than just having one product all year round. So, for marketing reasons, high-potassium "Winterizer" fertilizers continue to be marketed and sold.

As a result, even in my sandy soil with year-after-year low potassium levels, I apply potassium (in the form of sulfate of potash aka. potassium sulfate) in spring and summer but make no potassium applications after Labor Day, to try to walk the line between providing sufficient potassium and avoiding the increased risk of snow mold in my lawn, which typically experiences about 60-90 "snow-covered" days each winter here in New Hampshire.


----------



## john5246

@ken-n-nancy thanks for that great post, good to see you here btw, I had followed your reno on a different forum, hope all is going well with your poa problems.


----------



## msa151

Hi,
I am in central IL. I have couple of (small, 4" or so diameter) bald patches in my yard that I wanted to seed. What would be best time to do that and when should I start nitrogen application keeping the seeding in mind?
Thanks


----------



## Green

ken-n-nancy said:


> As a result, even in my sandy soil with year-after-year low potassium levels, I apply potassium (in the form of sulfate of potash aka. potassium sulfate) in spring and summer but make no potassium applications after Labor Day, to try to walk the line between providing sufficient potassium and avoiding the increased risk of snow mold in my lawn, which typically experiences about 60-90 "snow-covered" days each winter here in New Hampshire.


Yup. A neighbor confided that they are about to apply Scotts step 3, and were planning to do step 4 in Nov. (because they won't be able to fertilize during September). I advised that they reverse the two, and apply the Step 4 soon, and save the Step 3 for later due to snow mold and benefit from Potassium now instead of later. They're basically the same product, except for the Potassium percentage.

There were also studies showing little additional benefit of Potassium in some cases, even on sand, when levels were marginal to begin with, I believe. So I feel fine having only done one significant Potassium app all year, in the middle of the Summer. Especially with a history of snow mold...I'm really not going to play around with anything that might make it worse. There is evidence (my interpretation of the studies) that even ending K apps in August or September can still increase snow mold, if lots of it was applied the rest of the year prior to that period. Sorry, but I don't have the studies in hand or remember who did them.


----------



## MMoore

msa151 said:


> Hi,
> I am in central IL. I have couple of (small, 4" or so diameter) bald patches in my yard that I wanted to seed. What would be best time to do that and when should I start nitrogen application keeping the seeding in mind?
> Thanks


scratch it up with a rake and do it today.

I would toss some peat moss on top too. keeps the seeds moist longer and will help a bit with keeping it all in place when your fixing patches of lawn.


----------



## hammerhead

My fall nitrogen blitz is going well. Lawn looks great ,for my standards at least. Just wanted to thank @g-man for all the work and research he put into that compilation. It is great that he put references to scientific articles. It really seems to make a big difference from the usual fert recommendations I've heard from so called lawn "experts" and fert companies, which do not seem to be backed by science.
Also here in Switzerland everybody recommends high potassium fall fert and I learned here that those recommendations actually came from research on warm season grasses. Thanks again!


----------



## john5246

hammerhead said:


> My fall nitrogen blitz is going well. Lawn looks great ,for my standards at least. Just wanted to thank @g-man for all the work and research he put into that compilation. It is great that he put references to scientific articles. It really seems to make a big difference from the usual fert recommendations I've heard from so called lawn "experts" and fert companies, which do not seem to be backed by science.
> Also here in Switzerland everybody recommends high potassium fall fert and I learned here that those recommendations actually came from research on warm season grasses. Thanks again!


wow beautiful lush lawn! I love the fence thing you did too! Whose idea was that?


----------



## Green

Well, I decided I'm not doing a blitz in 2019. (I also didn't last year.) Instead, I'll be dumping a large app of N (a bit over 1 lb but under 1.5 lbs N) all at once or at least close together, from Carbon-X and Milorganite, about half of each. This will be soon. And probably Screamin Green w/Prodiamine on the low-input area at some point as in past years. I may also do some AMS/Miracle-Gro sprays and/or one or two additional low-rate granular N apps on some of my new grass areas.

Hope you all enjoy the blitz, if you're doing it.


----------



## hammerhead

Hey @Green 
Sounds interesting. Can you elaborate why you are doing it that way? What is the idea behind it? What does you fert schedule look like year round?
In case you've already put that info out in another post could you please link to it?
Thanks


----------



## hammerhead

john5246 said:


> wow beautiful lush lawn! I love the fence thing you did too! Whose idea was that?


Thanks for the compliments 
Regarding the fencing: Seen the same fencing system in my neighborhood. Talked to the guy and he gave me the contact of the company that has the exclusive import permission for that fencing system in Switzerland. I then bought the fence directly there and they shipped it to me in unassembled parts. My neighbor helped me measure my property (laser) and draw everything with CAD software to make sure everything would fit in perfectly before ordering. For the installation we had to pour a 2 feet solid concrete base and then we installed the fencing on top of it. I knew some guys that could help me with all that, i could never have done it myself. The fencing is a patented system from Germany based on stainless steel, glass and stone pebbles. It was VERY expensive. PM me if more info is required.


----------



## Rswarren14

Is anyone using the N-EXT products like 18-0-1 or 7-0-0 for their UREA nitrogen this fall? I already have the products so I was just wondering if I could use those instead of going out and buying a bag of straight urea N for the blitz


----------



## 7474

How soon after applying .5 # N of urea foliarly do you need to water it in?

If I spray at night and water in in the morning is that OK?


----------



## john5246

hammerhead said:


> john5246 said:
> 
> 
> 
> wow beautiful lush lawn! I love the fence thing you did too! Whose idea was that?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the compliments
> Regarding the fencing: Seen the same fencing system in my neighborhood. Talked to the guy and he gave me the contact of the company that has the exclusive import permission for that fencing system in Switzerland. I then bought the fence directly there and they shipped it to me in unassembled parts. My neighbor helped me measure my property (laser) and draw everything with CAD software to make sure everything would fit in perfectly before ordering. For the installation we had to pour a 2 feet solid concrete base and then we installed the fencing on top of it. I knew some guys that could help me with all that, i could never have done it myself. The fencing is a patented system from Germany based on stainless steel, glass and stone pebbles. It was VERY expensive. PM me if more info is required.
Click to expand...

It would be great if you could post a link to their website or something as other people might be interested in a similar design. It seems quite pricey but perhaps they have other designs for different budgets. So the sheer weight of it requires the concrete footing otherwise it would sink?


----------



## john5246

7474 said:


> How soon after applying .5 # N of urea foliarly do you need to water it in?
> 
> If I spray at night and water in in the morning is that OK?


We are about to get rain so I put mine down 1 hour ago (6pm) and watered it in with a hose for 5 mins. It's supposed to rain 7am and I don't want to be out there at 6 trying to spread urea in my pajamas. Also the dew in the morning makes it risky, I've heard it can cause the blades to burn if there's dew. I don't want to take that chance (front lawn)


----------



## 7474

john5246 said:


> 7474 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How soon after applying .5 # N of urea foliarly do you need to water it in?
> 
> If I spray at night and water in in the morning is that OK?
> 
> 
> 
> We are about to get rain so I put mine down 1 hour ago (6pm) and watered it in with a hose for 5 mins. It's supposed to rain 7am and I don't want to be out there at 6 trying to spread urea in my pajamas. Also the dew in the morning makes it risky, I've heard it can cause the blades to burn if there's dew. I don't want to take that chance (front lawn)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply.

Sounds like you applied granular? Correct regarding the dew with granular. The granular sticks to the wet leaves, dissolves and burns the blade (that's my understanding).

I applied foliarly and wondered how soon it needed to be watered in.


----------



## DonInTheLawn

I live in Cincinnati and the next 5 days are no rain with highs between 88-90. I don't have irrigation but I water and have hose timers. I wanted to throw down fert today but I'm worried about the lawn being too stressed the following week from the sun/heat. Should I hold off an extra week?


----------



## john5246

DonInTheLawn said:


> I live in Cincinnati and the next 5 days are no rain with highs between 88-90. I don't have irrigation but I water and have hose timers. I wanted to throw down fert today but I'm worried about the lawn being too stressed the following week from the sun/heat. Should I hold off an extra week?


No, the grass is resilient enough. You'll be fine, just put it down when it's convenient for you.


----------



## ThickAndGreen

I'm in the same area and put down .25 lbs on Monday. I plan on pushing it back to Wednesday night when it falls out of the 90's but in the end it probably won't make much of a difference.


----------



## Wolverine

Green said:


> Well, I decided I'm not doing a blitz in 2019. (I also didn't last year.) Instead, I'll be dumping a large app of N (a bit over 1 lb but under 1.5 lbs N) all at once or at least close together, from Carbon-X and Milorganite, about half of each. This will be soon. And probably Screamin Green w/Prodiamine on the low-input area at some point as in past years. I may also do some AMS/Miracle-Gro sprays and/or one or two additional low-rate granular N apps on some of my new grass areas.
> 
> Hope you all enjoy the blitz, if you're doing it.


I like the organic (low salt) approach as well. Please explain your thought process.


----------



## Green

Wolverine said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I decided I'm not doing a blitz in 2019. (I also didn't last year.) Instead, I'll be dumping a large app of N (a bit over 1 lb but under 1.5 lbs N) all at once or at least close together, from Carbon-X and Milorganite, about half of each. This will be soon. And probably Screamin Green w/Prodiamine on the low-input area at some point as in past years. I may also do some AMS/Miracle-Gro sprays and/or one or two additional low-rate granular N apps on some of my new grass areas.
> 
> Hope you all enjoy the blitz, if you're doing it.
> 
> 
> 
> I like the organic (low salt) approach as well. Please explain your thought process.
Click to expand...

Thought process:
1) I have Milorganite already
2) It's better for the soil to use as much natural stuff as possible
3) I don't want to spread something every week or two and dislike the way urea spreads at low rates
4) It agrees with the 50/50 approach for Fall Fertilization
5) It's not too late in the season for Milo here yet
6) I want to see what happens if I drop 1.5 lb N all at once on some areas (already did it a few days ago and it's already greening up). Let's see if the results are as good as urea/AMS every other week but with less time commitment


----------



## uts

^^ I think the fact that you are using slow release stuff along with some fast component puts you in the same boat just maybe slightly unpredictable if weather changes etc. I think you will have the same effect because slow release will give a 4-6 week window (correct me if I'm wrong).

I've been doing 0.5lb/M q2w and the lawn looks much better. Weeds have come up too but I just did a round of herbecides today.

Delaying next dose of AMS till tuesday might. Rain wed-Friday.

Definitely going to break the 1/3rule on the weekend


----------



## Green

hammerhead said:


> Hey Green
> Sounds interesting. Can you elaborate why you are doing it that way? What is the idea behind it? What does you fert schedule look like year round?
> In case you've already put that info out in another post could you please link to it?
> Thanks


It's around 3 lbs per year total. 1 lb in late Spring from organics, typically none or little in July and August, 1.5 lb between mid Sept and mid to late Oct (whether spoon fed or in a single app like this year) and then a final 0.5 lb winterizing app. If I don't see much difference from a single large Fall app versus Blitz (or even a benefit) I'll go with the single app again in the future.


----------



## JDgreen18

Green said:


> hammerhead said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey Green
> Sounds interesting. Can you elaborate why you are doing it that way? What is the idea behind it? What does you fert schedule look like year round?
> In case you've already put that info out in another post could you please link to it?
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> It's around 3 lbs per year total. 1 lb in late Spring from organics, typically none or little in July and August, 1.5 lb between mid Sept and mid to late Oct (whether spoon fed or in a single app like this year) and then a final 0.5 lb winterizing app. If I don't see much difference from a single large Fall app versus Blitz (or even a benefit) I'll go with the single app again in the future.
Click to expand...

I threw down a good amount of fert this year but I'm coming off a reno from last fall. I'm at about 4 pounds per 1000 right now, anyway my approach has been every 3 weeks from my first app in the spring with about a quarter/third/half pound each app. I only put down one app in the summer months tho and skipped from the last week in June to about the second week in August.
I have sandy soil and spoon feeding has worked out really well. I will continue this method.


----------



## TommyTester

Blitz underway.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUiuvghBIOU[/media]


----------



## Factor

> Withdrawal syndrome
> After all the mowing and fertilizing, now is the withdrawal period. You might notice some folks living in your house. They seem nice and friendly to you and call you Dad (or Mom). Apparently there are a few shows to binge watch on Netflix too.


Awesome..

Thanks


----------



## polofitted007

TommyTester said:


> Blitz underway.
> 
> [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUiuvghBIOU[/media]


post that spreadsheet for us...


----------



## uts

When do you guys think will be your last dose of N for the year for all the east coast people. It was still 62 for most part of the day today (central CT) so that's encouraging for some more app(s) maybe


----------



## JDgreen18

uts said:


> When do you guys think will be your last dose of N for the year for all the east coast people. It was still 62 for most part of the day today (central CT) so that's encouraging for some more app(s) maybe


When you notice the lawn isn't growing anymore its time to stop....or some say after it stops growing you can put one final app down of fast release N. I don't normally do this. I usually stop around the first week of November here in Ct


----------



## uts

JDgreen18 said:


> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> When do you guys think will be your last dose of N for the year for all the east coast people. It was still 62 for most part of the day today (central CT) so that's encouraging for some more app(s) maybe
> 
> 
> 
> When you notice the lawn isn't growing anymore its time to stop....or some say after it stops growing you can put one final app down of fast release N. I don't normally do this. I usually stop around the first week of November here in Ct
Click to expand...

That was what the aim was, I was just seeing if anybody had a predicted time. Early November sounds like a good plan for me too. I was hoping to put one final load of carbon x today and then AMS as the last dose. That should put me end of october/very early November.

Any harm for carbon X now? Or do you think both the last doses should be AMS?


----------



## JDgreen18

uts said:


> JDgreen18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> uts said:
> 
> 
> 
> When do you guys think will be your last dose of N for the year for all the east coast people. It was still 62 for most part of the day today (central CT) so that's encouraging for some more app(s) maybe
> 
> 
> 
> When you notice the lawn isn't growing anymore its time to stop....or some say after it stops growing you can put one final app down of fast release N. I don't normally do this. I usually stop around the first week of November here in Ct
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That was what the aim was, I was just seeing if anybody had a predicted time. Early November sounds like a good plan for me too. I was hoping to put one final load of carbon x today and then AMS as the last dose. That should put me end of october/very early November.
> 
> Any harm for carbon X now? Or do you think both the last doses should be AMS?
Click to expand...

I just put CX down today...


----------



## DiggingHoles

I just put down 1lb/K of Lesco 24/3/12 this afternoon. Will do one more app in early November.


----------



## g-man

This is a good webinar from Dr. Soldat on what happens with nitrogen during the fall.

https://turfnet.wistia.com/medias/yq4djng1cb

I wanted to share a few of the key points in the webinar:

- what they called Sept, Oct, Nov correlates to my Oct, Nov, Dec. Remember that they are in Madison, Wisconsin.

- they did a chamber study twice using different rates of N at different month temps (22:07). The results are very interesting:

- *no statistical increase in root mass for kbg as a function of N even with zero N* (23:48) but it did increase as temperatures dropped.

- Of the applied N, only 25% is taken for the plant in the colder month. (27:58)

But that was a chamber study repeated twice, so the skeptical will say, "that's not what I see in my yard (sport field)". It was done at two site (WI /MN), with bentgrass :-( with two type of soils (sand and natural soil).

At 30:45 Soldat describes verbally why not to continue with more N. The grass needs so hardening before winter. Pushing for growth will bring more young/weak leaves.

- they had trouble telling apart 0.5 or a pound of N.

- in the native soil with some sand on top, the late fert did made the lawn have an early green up, but not much. (32:42)


----------



## Babameca

@g-man Great listening to that. Studies from different sources are not conclusive. Most of it is done on putting greens and sand top dressed plots, which most of us don't have. Of all common nomix only KBG is covered.
Please share the links (when available) for the other 2 parts of the series.
B


----------



## Pete1313

@Babameca here is a link to the other 2 parts of that series. Scroll down a bit and you will see them.
https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/page/2/

This was another good one if interested
Winter prep: Maximizing cool-season turfgrass physiology and management for winter survival


----------



## Babameca

Thanks @Pete1313


----------



## tgreen

@g-man, your post convinced me to go urea this year on my second app vs doing milo like previous years. I used vigoro 29%N which is actually something like 21% urea but close enough. The point is I got a great response, particularly color. I had gone milo in previous years even knowing it doesn't work well at low soil temps. It always looks good this time of year but this year is a step up. So, THANKS!


----------



## Green

@tgreen, I like the slow release/hybrid fertilizer method in week 3 or so of September here (not sure how much warmer you are and when might be optimal timing there...we are currently in the 60s for daily highs now in mid to late late Oct., and usually mid to low 70s on average in late Sept.) Sept. is recommended for most Northern regions, but TN, for example, would be 4 weeks later than here. So if you're located in between, timing would be an average, based on daylight hours more than anything else.

As such, I combine Milo with a synthetic or use a pre-made option like Screamin' Green...and get awesome color in the Fall....that lasts a couple of months.

I target the 50/50 slow to fast ratio that is suggested by some experts.

Yet another option you might try, which includes both fertilizer types. This is the single-app version of the blitz. I dropped 1.5 lbs N all at once this year using this method and it worked great. I'm a former blitz program user, looking to streamline things. Still tweaking it...


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> - what they called Sept, Oct, Nov correlates to my Oct, Nov, Dec. Remember that they are in Madison, Wisconsin.


I'm not sure if that lines up exactly...

Someone (I think they) recommended (some years ago) a "mid-Sept" application in Northern regions (see my previous post to tgreen about my combined app approach). Remember osuturfman talking about it back then?

But I found mid Sept. too early as it can still be high 80s or 90 at times and there may be dormancy still. So I target week 3 if I can on an irrigated lawn.

Problem is, by early October (and I have done the app late, such as last year in early Oct.) ET drops a good bit in our locations.

For comparison, my final late-season apps have always been between week 3 of Nov. and week 2 of Dec. as far as I can remember off the top of my head. This is at roughly 40 degrees soil temp.

I think your area is pretty close to mine in terms of schedules/weather.

Tennessee (e.g. according to SP's timings) seems exactly one month later...their Oct. Is truly like my (our?) Sept. In many ways.


----------



## g-man

@tgreen I'm glad it is working out. It is a proven approach.

@Green I'm glad your method is giving you the results you want. There are multiple ways to lawn care. :thumbup:


----------



## rockinmylawn

I have been applying ~ 1.5 lbs of N (Urea 46-0-0) spread over 4 weekends since the start of October.
Did another spoon feeding at that rate this past weekend.
So about 5 spoon feedings since October.

Can you all refresh my memory re: when to do the pause in the transition zone of Central VA?
We had a couple of days last week that we went below 32° & some frost. Not a hard freeze.

This AM we also hit that temp early but went into the high 50's & low 60's & expected into the rest of the week.

Or if there is NO such a things as a pause anymore with the weird temps we get these days everywhere.


----------



## g-man

@rockinmylawn use the *historical average first frost* day to guide you.


----------



## rockinmylawn

g-man said:


> @rockinmylawn use the *historical average first frost* day to guide you.


Thanks @g-man!


----------



## Green

rockinmylawn said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @rockinmylawn use the *historical average first frost* day to guide you.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks @g-man!
Click to expand...

After a few years, you may find you need to alter the guideline to fine-tune, but it's a good start. It's usually accurate within a week. Half the battle is finding good data for your area. I was lucky that my local extension published data for an area very close to me.


----------



## Chris LI

Green said:


> rockinmylawn said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> @rockinmylawn use the *historical average first frost* day to guide you.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks @g-man!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> After a few years, you may find you need to alter the guideline to fine-tune, but it's a good start. It's usually accurate within a week. Half the battle is finding good data for your area. I was lucky that my local extension published data for an area very close to me.
Click to expand...

Here's the link to Dave's Garden zip code lookup for first frost dates:

https://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/#b


----------



## rockinmylawn

Chris LI said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> 
> After a few years, you may find you need to alter the guideline to fine-tune, but it's a good start. It's usually accurate within a week. Half the battle is finding good data for your area. I was lucky that my local extension published data for an area very close to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the link to Dave's Garden zip code lookup for first frost dates:
> 
> https://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/#b
Click to expand...

Almost on cue - grass started slowing down even after a drop of N 2 weekends ago right after my OP.
Mowed this past weekend & lots less clipping than just 2 weeks ago.
Dropped my last load yest & that's it for fert this year.


----------



## g-man

Bill Kreuser posted more info on late fall nitrogen (and for the whole year) in a 30Dec TurfInfo. I like the focus on clipping yield (mow much the grass grows in a week) to keep it constant and no so much in nitrogen. The short version is: feed it to keep 1.5in/week and not feed it when it is not ideal temperatures.

Enjoy the article


----------



## Green

g-man said:


> Bill Kreuser posted more info on late fall nitrogen (and for the whole year) in a 30Dec TurfInfo. I like the focus on clipping yield (mow much the grass grows in a week) to keep it constant and no so much in nitrogen. The short version is: feed it to keep 1.5in/week and not feed it when it is not ideal temperatures.
> 
> Enjoy the article


Thanks for posting. This appears to agree with what we've been hearing from these scientists over the past few years.

I'm hoping my own informal winterizing experiment yields some discernible results as well. Right now, I have nothing to observe or conclude from it. I also still plan to try the early Spring Nitrogen at low rate (listed as one of his exception cases on the final page of the article) on a plot that received no late Fall N. I want to see if it can produce positive results versus no N.

Finally, I personally think that all of this recent research the past decade or so, and especially the past five or so years, also creates another question: is it really ideal to stop fertilizing entirely as early as average first frost? My own experience tentatively says no, that that is a bit too early to stop (at least in my area)...however, I'd like to see more professional research on that. They have in some cases advocated spoon feeding right through that "pause" period, but there is by no means a consensus yet.

Also: One thing that is not immediately clear to me: why does stand age necessarily correlate with soil organic matter percentage? For example: wouldn't a new stand planted in very rich soil be more like an older stand? Or, how about a new stand that is a Reno, where the old stand was killed? Wouldn't that, too, have high organic matter? Or a new stand on poor soil in which rich, compost-based soil was imported prior to seeding?


----------



## Chris LI

I have read all 14 pages (not all links), and did not see anything discussed relating to my issue, so will preface this post with a very relevant statement:

I'm trying to solve a problem in which there may be no solution.

First, here's a little background on the situation.

I've been following the Fall Blitz for several years, using urea at 0.5 lbs N (not product) per week, until avg first frost. Some years I have applied a urea winterizer, other years not, so I am eliminating that variable, because I have not seen it factor in the results in this particular area of my yard.

Two constants that I have, which affect the situation are:

1. Shady, cold northern exposure backyard. 
2. Dense, fibrous root system of 3 Red Maples.

I know the area warms up later in the spring and cools off earlier in the fall, and that adds to the problem.

I hypothesize the real problem is that because the maples have such a dense, extensive root system, they readily absorb the urea at the expense of the turf. That area is so slow and stunted in the spring (and less dense than optimal during the growing season).

For this area, and another area having difficulty under my Norway Maple (spring growth is ok under the NM), I started with foliar apps (one, so far this spring), to get fertilizer directly to the turf.

My questions are:

If I tried foliar apps as a blitz in the fall, what rates should I use for urea and AS?

Should I consider AS over urea, since it doesn't need to be converted to urease, first?

If I decide to go with granular apps using AS this year instead of urea, might I see an improvement?

Any knowledge/experience with spray apps of urea or AS for the Fall Blitz, is much appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## g-man

In theory foliar and soil should not matter, but the rates that you can apply foliar are less. Why not feed the trees on purpose ?


----------



## uts

I dont have much experience with spraying but why not do foliar N applications to get the grass dense while simultaneously feeding the trees either with a dedicated tree fertilizer spike(s) or a balanced fertilizer. When you blitz do the area heavier than you usually do the rest of the area. Developing a better root system will help overall uptake when you do granular applications


----------



## Chris LI

g-man said:


> In theory foliar and soil should not matter, but the rates that you can apply foliar are less. Why not feed the trees on purpose ?


Thank you. I have been using granular and soil spray apps almost all the time, with the fall blitz 99% granular urea, so the trees do get a good feeding. I was thinking that the dense matting of tree roots was sucking up most of the N, because that is the only reason I can attribute the slow growth of the lawn in that area. Other areas also receive less sunlight and also have cooler soil temps (I checked with a digital meat thermometer in the fall).

I go a little heavier with the fertilizer in those areas, to give an opportunity for both the grass and trees to benefit.

I broke up my soil test samples into multiple locations, to try to isolate this area (Backyard-East), to determine if there is a significant difference from the other areas. Pulling core samples was a challenge, too with the tree roots.

I even thinned the trees in a significant way, for tree health and to reduce shade. I was hoping that foliar apps would get the N directly to the turf, without the trees gobbling up the nutrients. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables and explore as many possibilities of aiding the turf in this area, and I think going foliar may be the best POA, going forward, because I'm at the end of my rope.

@uts
Thank you. A lot of above also applies to answering your questions. I haven't tried a balanced fertilizer, but have used the Bioplex 5-3-1, in that area.


----------



## Ohio Lawn

Would Carbon X be ok for the fall N blitz? If I understand the label correctly 23 of the 24 percent N is fast release. Is that correct?


----------



## JeffR84

@g-man do you think it's okay to do my first application of the Fall blitz with a balanced fertilizer if it's mainly made up quick release components? I am trying to raise my P and K levels. After this first application I will switch to ammonium sulfate.


----------



## g-man

Yes that will work. It is Urea (46-0-0), DAP (18-46-0) and MOP (0-0-60).


----------



## Ryan1+2

Looking for advice on applying pre-M + nitrogen. I picked up a couple bags of expert pre emergent on clearance at Walmart. I'm planning on using a fall pre emergent for the first time. For the past couple of years I've only applied in the spring but this past spring I had a lot of poa annua. Since I've already put down two apps of ocean Gro which is slow realese I'm not sure how long to wait to apply more N. On July 4th I applied Ocean Gro at bag rate which is approximately 1lb. N per M. August 4th I applied another round of ocean gro at 0.4lbs.N Per M. The bag of preM contains dithiopyr and at bag rate would put down 0.425 lbs of N per M. Soil temps right now are around 79-80F. My goal is to try and get it down 2 weeks prior to soil temps dropping to 70 but with the ocean Gro that I already put down Being slow release I don't want to apply more N to soon. I also have a bag of urea left over from last year which I plan on using after the 18-0-1 preM.


----------



## g-man

It is hard to go back in time. In hindsight the 04aug ocean gro was not the right product. The PreM should go down around late July early August. You have 3 options now, drop the extra N to get the Prem, dont drop PreM until later or get a PreM without nitrogen.


----------



## turfnsurf

g-man said:


> It is hard to go back in time. In hindsight the 04aug ocean gro was not the right product. The PreM should go down around late July early August.


@g-man why is this? Is it because you want it down so that it cycles out by the time you overseed? Is it because of the temps? Is it because of the germination time of perennial weeds? Or something else?

I ask because I intended to use tenacity.


----------



## g-man

@turfnsurf I think you need to read the Cool Season Guide and the first post of the Nitrogen Blitz. I dont want to retype the info.


----------



## Harts

turfnsurf said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is hard to go back in time. In hindsight the 04aug ocean gro was not the right product. The PreM should go down around late July early August.
> 
> 
> 
> @g-man why is this? Is it because you want it down so that it cycles out by the time you overseed? Is it because of the temps? Is it because of the germination time of perennial weeds? Or something else?
> 
> I ask because I intended to use tenacity.
Click to expand...

Pre-em needs to get down early enough to control Poa Annua next season.

The Oceangro was an ill timed app of N if you intend on using a pre-em that has N in it. The nitrogen apps would be too close together.

So now you have 3 options:

1. Use the pre-em with N. You will just be applying extra N on top of what was applied last week
2. Wait a few more weeks before using the pre-em with N so the N apps are spaced out
3. Get an entirely different pre-em that doesn't contain N (Prodiamine or Dimension) and drop it now


----------



## mobiledynamics

Does one spoon feed or blitz with new grass.
Or skip it entirely or 2 apps late into the season
Overseeding and seeding some patchy bare spots.
KBG so I suspect between germination and the pause, by end of september at least will be the 1st mow.

In the past LOL, I have slowly tread on the turf and (hand cut) the existing grass with a hedge shear, to minimize the damage on the new blades on same similar areas there is existing turf. No N as I want to keep the existing turf as low...


----------



## Ryan1+2

g-man said:


> It is hard to go back in time. In hindsight the 04aug ocean gro was not the right product. The PreM should go down around late July early August. You have 3 options now, drop the extra N to get the Prem, dont drop PreM until later or get a PreM without nitrogen.


I originally was planning on getting just preM without N but found this stuff on clearance and grabbed two bags. Maybe I'll just save is for spring and get preM minus the nitrogen. Thanks.


----------



## northernlights536

I understand this can go down on new sod. My sod is 4weeks old. Mowed twice. next mowing is tomorrow to try and bring the high down on the KBG.

I do not know if I have it calculated correctly. I thought its 1lb per 1000 sqft but the calculator I used for the weight is saying the rate is 2.2 lbs per 1000 sq ft.

https://www.better-lawn-care.com/fertilizer-calculator.html#sthash.iPv8ICMD.ptUtQQqL.dpbs

Just want to be sure I have it correct so I don't kill the grass. I am not sure on this 4 week sod if I should due the full month application or just do bi-weekly ?

Also does mowing it effect when the urea can be put down?


----------



## Justmatson

northernlights536 said:


> I understand this can go down on new sod. My sod is 4weeks old. Mowed twice. next mowing is tomorrow to try and bring the high down on the KBG.
> 
> I do not know if I have it calculated correctly. I thought its 1lb per 1000 sqft but the calculator I used for the weight is saying the rate is 2.2 lbs per 1000 sq ft.
> 
> https://www.better-lawn-care.com/fertilizer-calculator.html#sthash.iPv8ICMD.ptUtQQqL.dpbs
> 
> Just want to be sure I have it correct so I don't kill the grass. I am not sure on this 4 week sod if I should due the full month application or just do bi-weekly ?
> 
> Also does mowing it effect when the urea can be put down?


It's 1lb of Nitrogen not 1lb of product.

Eg: 46-0-0 (strongest nitrogen u can get)

1 ÷ .46 = 2.17lbs of product to get 1lb of Nitrogen per 1000sq

.5 ÷ .46 = 1.08lbs of product to get ½lb of Nitrogen.

I would do ½lb/N bi-weekly of a fast release Nitrogen if your day time temps have come down. Water in.

What fert are you using? May want something with phosphorus in it to help the roots get more established.


----------



## g-man

2lb of urea /ksqft = 1lb of nitrogen/ksqft.

So 1lb urea/ksqft every 2 weeks and you will be fine. You can apply at any moment except on wet grass.


----------



## turfnsurf

@g-man since I've been learning, I've become familiar with different forms of urea (46-0-0 and 15-0-0) mostly.

I will be using AS 21-0-0, which you said you prefer. 
I am using it because I have high pH that I am trying to lower, and it also has sulfur that I need. Why do you prefer it?

And also, do you have a sense for why some people prefer urea? 
Is it because the higher amounts of N mean less apps? 
Is this form cheaper? 
Is it because some are water soluble and others aren't?
I thought I heard that some forms of fertilizer aren't as effective below 50° but I can't recall which one.

Ultimately, I am trying to get an idea of why people prefer certain N sources over others.


----------



## Babameca

@turfnsurf 
Urea:
+ much cheaper
+46% N
- not stable, volatilises which reduces plant uptake
- not very useful below 55-60F air temp
- tricky to apply as granular at low doses

AS:
+ stable
+ works in cooler weather
+ acidifies if that is what you need
- more expensive
- higher salt index. can burn if not watered in at higher app rates


----------



## ken-n-nancy

Babameca said:


> @turfnsurf
> Urea:
> ... - not very useful below 55-60F air temp
> 
> AS:
> ... + works in cooler weather


@Babameca, that's a con I don't think I've ever seen mentioned before regarding urea. Can you point me to a reference for that? I did a quick google search and had trouble finding data on a comparison between urea and ammonium sulfate fertilizers in low temperatures. Thanks.

My impression has been that although nitrogen uptake is diminished in cooler temperatures, that there isn't a distinction between urea or ammonium sulfate being used as the nitrogen source. Indeed, I think urea is the traditional choice for "late fall fertilization" of cool-season turf, which is almost always well below 55F-60F temperatures, based upon the time of year for "late fall fertilization."


----------



## Babameca

@ken-n-nancy 
Urea is the main vs AS in most fertilizers in big biox stores because of cost. One + for Urea is that it can be coated and create slow release fert.
I also did noit mention that AS is great for suppressing fungus as most sp. like higher pH
Here is a 'spring' fert from a reputable company as well as 'late fall' one:
https://www.ojcompagnie.com/sites/default/files/fichiers/10-1-4%20Micro%20Sustane%20Booster%20Can%20%281014SUST%29%20F%20Rev1409.pdf
https://www.ojcompagnie.com/sites/default/files/fichiers/33-0-0%20Pro%20Fin%20Automne%2040%20UMAXX%2035%20AS%20Can%20F%20Rev1412.pdf




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8aOZIx2Rlk&t=47s


----------



## JERSEY

Chris LI said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> In theory foliar and soil should not matter, but the rates that you can apply foliar are less. Why not feed the trees on purpose ?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I have been using granular and soil spray apps almost all the time, with the fall blitz 99% granular urea, so the trees do get a good feeding. I was thinking that the dense matting of tree roots was sucking up most of the N, because that is the only reason I can attribute the slow growth of the lawn in that area. Other areas also receive less sunlight and also have cooler soil temps (I checked with a digital meat thermometer in the fall).
> 
> I go a little heavier with the fertilizer in those areas, to give an opportunity for both the grass and trees to benefit.
> 
> I broke up my soil test samples into multiple locations, to try to isolate this area (Backyard-East), to determine if there is a significant difference from the other areas. Pulling core samples was a challenge, too with the tree roots.
> 
> I even thinned the trees in a significant way, for tree health and to reduce shade. I was hoping that foliar apps would get the N directly to the turf, without the trees gobbling up the nutrients. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables and explore as many possibilities of aiding the turf in this area, and I think going foliar may be the best POA, going forward, because I'm at the end of my rope.
> 
> @uts
> Thank you. A lot of above also applies to answering your questions. I haven't tried a balanced fertilizer, but have used the Bioplex 5-3-1, in that area.
Click to expand...

Chris

Turf under trees......yea.....i have same issues. Maples, sweet gums(really bad) all of them rob the turf of food and water.

I think granular and foiliar is the answer. Read the grass.
I have a few problem areas, and i can believe how much N i need to keep the turf going.

How did your year go? Tough here in the sandy pines, just recovering now.


----------



## Chris LI

JERSEY said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> In theory foliar and soil should not matter, but the rates that you can apply foliar are less. Why not feed the trees on purpose ?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. I have been using granular and soil spray apps almost all the time, with the fall blitz 99% granular urea, so the trees do get a good feeding. I was thinking that the dense matting of tree roots was sucking up most of the N, because that is the only reason I can attribute the slow growth of the lawn in that area. Other areas also receive less sunlight and also have cooler soil temps (I checked with a digital meat thermometer in the fall).
> 
> I go a little heavier with the fertilizer in those areas, to give an opportunity for both the grass and trees to benefit.
> 
> I broke up my soil test samples into multiple locations, to try to isolate this area (Backyard-East), to determine if there is a significant difference from the other areas. Pulling core samples was a challenge, too with the tree roots.
> 
> I even thinned the trees in a significant way, for tree health and to reduce shade. I was hoping that foliar apps would get the N directly to the turf, without the trees gobbling up the nutrients. I'm trying to eliminate as many variables and explore as many possibilities of aiding the turf in this area, and I think going foliar may be the best POA, going forward, because I'm at the end of my rope.
> 
> @uts
> Thank you. A lot of above also applies to answering your questions. I haven't tried a balanced fertilizer, but have used the Bioplex 5-3-1, in that area.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Chris
> 
> Turf under trees......yea.....i have same issues. Maples, sweet gums(really bad) all of them rob the turf of food and water.
> 
> I think granular and foiliar is the answer. Read the grass.
> I have a few problem areas, and i can believe how much N i need to keep the turf going.
> 
> How did your year go? Tough here in the sandy pines, just recovering now.
Click to expand...

I think the worst trouble area under my Norway maple is a little better with adding some foliar sprays this year. It is definitely better under the Red maples in another section. I wish I had more time to do another spring and early summer app, but I will continue in the fall, mixing foliar and granular apps, depending on the circumstances (I am low on granular urea, but have AS and liquids). Also, I tried a couple of apps of N-Ext products (Rgs and Air-8 ["Compaction Cure"]). I think they started to help, too. The grass seems to be much thicker overall, with less N applied this spring/ summer. I just made a second drop of Stress X 4-0-25 from Carbon Earth (Yard Mastery) on Thursday. I think this definitely helped, too. Since I changed a few variables this year, it's impossible to determine which made the greatest impact, but the combination seemed to work well (I also used Simple Lawn Solutions 15-0-15 at low/foliar rate). I have a K deficiency, so that's why all the fertilizers with high K. I may do a drop of Bioplex 5-3-1 soon, before the N blitz. The trees took a beating from the TS (wind burn), so I will definitely be feeding them, too. I recently dropped alfalfa pellets under the trees, with extra water.


----------



## jeffjunstrom

g-man said:


> *Fall Nitrogen Blitz*​
> *The shed *
> Depending on the summer (wet vs. dry) but around August the lawn will start growing faster again. It will also look like it is shedding dead stuff. This is the time to starting dropping the height of cut (HOC) from the summer HOC. This also helps the lawn get rid of the dead stuff and prepares the lawn for the fall. The HOC is a very personal choice, but most will be happy with a 2.5 inch height of cut (HOC).


Quick question on The Shed...does anyone use their Sun Joe (or related lawn rake/scarifier/dethatcher) before starting to bring the cut down? I lowered a notch today and had a heckuva time. Thought maybe I should take a pass with the rake before the seasonal HOC lowering to get out some of the dead stuff.


----------



## MMoore

No hard times here with my mega mower.

HRX is pretty good at whatever I throw at it.


----------



## Chris LI

@jeffjunstrom
It's always a little tough to bring the HOC down at the end of the summer. I am struggling with it now, because work and life make it difficult to mow more than once per week. A lot of material tends to come up. Since you already dropped HOC, you can break out the Sun Joe and mow again at same HOC in the next day or two before it grows out and is ready for another mow.

When I am looking to lower HOC, I try to up my mowing frequency before dropping HOC to maintain quality and I usually bag the clippings, because so much material comes up. When I was looking to dethatch, I would cut frequently if possible, drop HOC, dethatch immediately after and mow again (bagging). I would also time any fertilizer apps well before/after dropping any granulars, so I didn't pick any up with the bag mows (my mower has very good suction, especially with the bagging blade). If you need fert, try liquids during that time period. I just dropped some granular, so I will need to mulch for at least the next week or so, and would like to make another granular drop soon, so I will wait to bag a little bit longer, and probably bag right before making the next granular drop. This is another advantage of using liquids...less planning for bag mows.


----------



## nnnnnate

At what temp should I dethatch? I've got a sunjoe thats supposed to be delivered today.

My front is decent but my back sucks. I sodded in May (new construction, front got put in last year) and it doesn't look good, it never filled in and there are big splotches of different colors going on. I had planned to detatch, aerate, and re-seed but after reading this decided to go aggressive on the urea applying 0.5 lb/N per week. I put down my second application yesterday. Its greened up visibly already but has a ways to go. I did put down Spectricides weed stop for lawns with crabgrass killer on Sunday. I spot sprayed it in the back yard only.







I'm in Salt Lake and its still hot here. High 90's all last week and mid to low 90's this week. Should I wait to dethatch until its low 80s consistantly? I just am thinking that I'd like to do it early enough that the lawn will have time to bounce back and hopefully thicken up before it shuts down for the year. Alternatively, looking at those pictures should I skip dethatching this year? What about aerating?

I do appreciate the help. I've been sponge-ing up everything I can on the site for the last few weeks and have learned a lot.


----------



## Chris LI

@nnnnnate
I think it is wise to wait a little, as you suggested, to get past the 90's, so you don't cause additional stress. Since you have kbg, I wouldn't bother overseeding, but a light dethatching might help get some of the dead matter up. Your plan for the aggressive N fertilization will pay dividends in the spring and you will definitely see an improvement soon. It will also help with recovery from the dethatching. Kbg is very hungry, so it probably just needed some more N, and that's most likely why the color was uneven. Also getting a soil test either right now, before you add any more fertilizer, or late winter/early spring, before you add anything next season, will help guide you on at least some of the basics (pH, P, K, Fe, organic matter %, etc.). You can opt to get more in depth testing for micronutrients, too. If you are adding only N right now for the aggressive N blitz, you can still get a soil test, which won't really skew the results. Kbg needs about 4 lbs. of N per year to look good, but many will go much higher than that. If you address any deficiencies from the soil test results, the grass plant will make more efficient use of the nutrients, and you will have better chances of releasing locked up nutrients in the soil, to make them available to the plant.


----------



## always_creative

What's your suggestion for the best way to "spoonfeed" a fall renovation? Do we do this with starter ferts?


----------



## HoosierLawnGnome

always_creative said:


> What's your suggestion for the best way to "spoonfeed" a fall renovation? Do we do this with starter ferts?


Urea or ammonium sulfate


----------



## always_creative

I guess I was unclear. I was wondering what the rate of fertilization ought to be. Same total, just smaller amounts?


----------



## g-man

@always_creative check the Reno guide for fert guidance. Something in the 0.20 -0.25lb N/ksqft.


----------



## joecorrell

I'm just starting out...but understand this overall.

@g-man you said, "Depending on the summer (wet vs. dry) but around August the lawn will start growing faster again. It will also look like it is shedding dead stuff. This is the time to starting dropping the height of cut (HOC) from the summer HOC. This also helps the lawn get rid of the dead stuff and prepares the lawn for the fall. The HOC is a very personal choice, but most will be happy with a 2.5 inch height of cut (HOC)." Do you drop all the way to 2.5" in one mowing, or do you gradually drop to 2.5" over the course of several weeks/months? If gradually, what's your timing?


----------



## g-man

I do it gradually. If it is looking ugly, you are doing taking off too much and need to let it heal.


----------



## joecorrell

Thanks @g-man Is there a date that you aim to have it to 2.5" by?


----------



## KoopHawk

When does everyone put down their last app of N for the year?


----------



## AndyS

For new grass after it's first couple of mows, would a product that's pure NPK work better (e.g. Scott's Starter Fert applied at a lower rate), or would spoonfeeding be best accomplished by something with supporting micros (e.g. BalX)? N drives the bus, but for new grass does phosphorous or micros play a better supporting role?


----------



## joecorrell

@g-man Is there a goal date that you aim to have HOC to 2.5" by? Or, latest you'd want to get it to 2.5"? Is 2.5" the HOC for the winter/last mowing?

I'm planning to core aerate - any average date to do this in the Fall? Also, is HOC 2.5" okay with aerating or shorter HOC?


----------



## Biggylawns

Quick question for the guys who did the super aggressive .5 lb N/week method - did you do a bi-weekly split at .25 lb N/M or .5 lb N/M once a week? I removed an above ground kid pool last week and have been doing a bi-weekly .25 app so I'm curious if this is better or worse.


----------



## g-man

I've done the 0.5lb of N/ksqft per week. It grows a lot, but I did not like the look/mowing.

Make sure your irrigation is good. Currently in Indy it is very dry, so I would not even attempt it.


----------



## SodFace

Biggylawns said:


> Quick question for the guys who did the super aggressive .5 lb N/week method - did you do a bi-weekly split at .25 lb N/M or .5 lb N/M once a week? I removed an above ground kid pool last week and have been doing a bi-weekly .25 app so I'm curious if this is better or worse.


This year I have been doing 0.5lb N/1ksqft every 2 weeks since the summer temps have gone.

Edit/ Luckily plenty of rain I haven't needed to water except my small reseed areas. Have needed to mow about twice a week.


----------



## Chris LI

Biggylawns said:


> Quick question for the guys who did the super aggressive .5 lb N/week method - did you do a bi-weekly split at .25 lb N/M or .5 lb N/M once a week? I removed an above ground kid pool last week and have been doing a bi-weekly .25 app so I'm curious if this is better or worse.


Doing the split is probably a little better, to get a more consistent release, AS long as you irrigate enough each time afterwards to avoid volatization. I have only done the single 0.5 lbs N/M per week, and it worked for me (time is a factor).


----------



## doverosx

I was holding off on the blitz until my overseed matured a bit more. Looks like I'll be able to crank things up from my 0.15N rate to 0.25 ;-).


----------



## ABC123

Ive been doing around .2lb/n/m weekly foliar for 9 weeks now.


----------



## Allan-00

Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.


----------



## Harts

Allan-00 said:


> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.


If you are using Urea and AMS, spray it instead. Much easier and more consistent then spreading.


----------



## Harts

ABC123 said:


> Ive been doing around .2lb/n/m weekly foliar for 9 weeks now.


Yea, you're grass turned out okay :lol: :lol:

Congrats by the way. Lawn looks awesome.


----------



## turfnsurf

Chris LI said:


> Biggylawns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question for the guys who did the super aggressive .5 lb N/week method - did you do a bi-weekly split at .25 lb N/M or .5 lb N/M once a week? I removed an above ground kid pool last week and have been doing a bi-weekly .25 app so I'm curious if this is better or worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing the split is probably a little better, to get a more consistent release, AS long as you irrigate enough each time afterwards to avoid volatization. I have only done the single 0.5 lbs N/M per week, and it worked for me (time is a factor).
Click to expand...

@Chris LI how long after? And does that answer depend on if you are using granular vs water soluble?

I ask because I use AS diluted in water. I will also want to know for when I use urea or Milo (when I don't know if they are water soluble).


----------



## Chris LI

turfnsurf said:


> Chris LI said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biggylawns said:
> 
> 
> 
> Quick question for the guys who did the super aggressive .5 lb N/week method - did you do a bi-weekly split at .25 lb N/M or .5 lb N/M once a week? I removed an above ground kid pool last week and have been doing a bi-weekly .25 app so I'm curious if this is better or worse.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing the split is probably a little better, to get a more consistent release, AS long as you irrigate enough each time afterwards to avoid volatization. I have only done the single 0.5 lbs N/M per week, and it worked for me (time is a factor).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> @Chris LI how long after? And does that answer depend on if you are using granular vs water soluble?
> 
> I ask because I use AS diluted in water. I will also want to know for when I use urea or Milo (when I don't know if they are water soluble).
Click to expand...

It's always best to irrigate a granular application ASAP lightly for both urea and AS(that night, if possible). They are both 100% water soluble. Within a day or two, you will be ok, beyond that you will have some N losses. If the leaf blades are wet upon application, it should immediately be watered in to wash the prills off the leaf surface to avoid burning.

For a spray app of AS (low concentration 0.1-0.25 lbs N), I think letting it sit on the leaf surface for 4-24 hours is good, but you should irrigate to wash it off before you hit the 24 hour mark. Most do this with AS and water overnight. I think it applies to urea, too (but not 100% sure). It may be ok to leave it on there for very low concentrations (0.1 lbs N or less) for both AS and urea. There is some detailed info if you dig around a little.

Milo can sit longer until it rains, if necessary. It has a decent water soluble content (about 1/3), but you shouldn't have volatization issues. However, the longer you wait to water any granular application, the longer it will take to get a response.


----------



## Avid123

Harts said:


> Allan-00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are using Urea and AMS, spray it instead. Much easier and more consistent then spreading.
Click to expand...

Do I just dissolve the desired weight of urea granules into the amount of water I think will be enough to cover the yard or is there a particular proportion ?

Does a foliar spray of urea need to be watered in afterwards ?

Thanks


----------



## Harts

Avid123 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allan-00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are using Urea and AMS, spray it instead. Much easier and more consistent then spreading.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do I just dissolve the desired weight of urea granules into the amount of water I think will be enough to cover the yard or is there a particular proportion ?
> 
> Does a foliar spray of urea need to be watered in afterwards ?
> 
> Thanks
Click to expand...

Urea dissolves easily. It can be left on the leaf at that rate over night, then watered in the next morning.

You should only need 1 gallon of water for every 1,000 sf.


----------



## VALawnNoob

If one has a Scotts Weed & Feed (yellow bag) available, would it be okay to use it for the N blitz late fall? 
I know the stuff isn't any good but isn't this about as a good time as any to get the Nitrogen out of it at least?


----------



## g-man

@VALawnNoob you are going outside the general guidelines. I would follow whatever the bag says since it has a herbicide.


----------



## Miggity

I just finished re-reading this entire thread. I only saw one mention of PGR on about page 3. I am 4 weeks into a weekly .29 N/M using AS on my first blitz. My Anuew PGR is about three days past due (calendar, not GDD) for reapplication and my lawn has been regulated all through the summer heat with irrigation, so no dormancy. Lawn looks great and filling in nicely but needs cutting almost every other day. Should I make one more PGR application to control topgrowth or just try to enjoy the extremely frequent mowings? I plan to stop the blitz October 4th. Thanks.


----------



## g-man

You can do more pgr. I do lower my rates at the end of the season. I think Pete1313 has a report of benefits to letting the lawn go dormant under regulation.


----------



## Harts

Miggity said:


> I just finished re-reading this entire thread. I only saw one mention of PGR on about page 3. I am 4 weeks into a weekly .29 N/M using AS on my first blitz. My Anuew PGR is about three days past due (calendar, not GDD) for reapplication and my lawn has been regulated all through the summer heat with irrigation, so no dormancy. Lawn looks great and filling in nicely but needs cutting almost every other day. Should I make one more PGR application to control topgrowth or just try to enjoy the extremely frequent mowings? I plan to stop the blitz October 4th. Thanks.


What rate are using for Anuew?


----------



## Miggity

Harts said:


> What rate are using for Anuew?


1st app in spring was 0.18oz/M, then 0.28oz/M all summer, and finally 0.32 oz/M three weeks ago when the cooling trend started. Too windy to spray today but I'll do 0.25 at dusk or tomorrow. HOC was 3", dropped to 2.75" three weeks ago and to 2.5" last week.

Thanks for the quick reply @g-man, I appreciate it.


----------



## GreenMountainLawn

Been really dry in New England. With 1 acre+ and no irrigation the blitz isn't really happening here unfortunately. I did get down .5lb of N per K of AMS about 3 weeks ago, the last time it rained enough for a drop.


----------



## halby

Allan-00 said:


> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.


Yes! I bumped up my weekly rate to .5 because I felt my coverage was so bad at such a low rate of AMS. The AMS I get from my local elevator is so cheap, it's only 17 bucks for 50lbs. But it's not uniform at all. Lot's of different size chunks. But man o MAN does is turn things green and make that grass grow. I could literally mow almost every day with as much rain as we have been getting in SE michigan. This is my first year doing a nitrogen blitz and I absolutely love it. I much prefer this to overseeding. I am 8 DAG in my backyard with a full reno. I am so DONE with growing grass from seed this year. It's exhausting. I'll take mowing 4 days a week over babying new grass any day of the week.


----------



## Bean4Me

Are there any issues with nitrogen blitz plus dropping HOC other than having to cut more frequently?


----------



## g-man

No issues.


----------



## jperm47

Harts said:


> Allan-00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are using Urea and AMS, spray it instead. Much easier and more consistent then spreading.
Click to expand...

I have 23k square feet and want to do 0.25 N/k sq ft and do understand spraying is a better option than spreading but I can't even think about spraying 23k square feet week after week. I sprayed about 15k of with tenacity when I had a Bentgrass problem and I sort of just gave up at the end of exhaustion


----------



## g-man

@jperm47 I spread mine. Keep it simple.


----------



## Scagfreedom48z+

jperm47 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Allan-00 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody else struggle with consistency when spreading a granular fert at such a low rate? I've been trying to do 0.25lb of N/ksqft per week via push broadcast spreader.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are using Urea and AMS, spray it instead. Much easier and more consistent then spreading.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have 23k square feet and want to do 0.25 N/k sq ft and do understand spraying is a better option than spreading but I can't even think about spraying 23k square feet week after week. I sprayed about 15k of with tenacity when I had a Bentgrass problem and I sort of just gave up at the end of exhaustion
Click to expand...

Before I started spraying, I spread 1/2 lb per week with a wizz spreader of 18-24-12 leaco starter fert for my blitz last year. It was actually fairly easy and quick. Throw on some earphones and get some free exercise!


----------



## aug0211

I feel like this must have been asked and covered but a search didn't uncover it and I want to sanity check myself so I don't do any damage.

I've done 2 apps (once weekly) of my Fall N blitz using Urea, at a rate of 0.5 lbs of N per 1k sq ft.

Is it OK to work in an app here and there of 0.5 lbs of N per 1k, using AS as my source of N? Any risk with switching between Urea and AS?


----------



## g-man

I think it is described in the first post, any fast nitrogen works, urea or AMS and others. You can switch between urea one week and AMS the next, 50/50 at the same time.


----------



## aug0211

g-man said:


> I think it is described in the first post, any fast nitrogen works, urea or AMS and others. You can switch between urea one week and AMS the next, 50/50 at the same time.


Thanks g-man! I did see where it said either is fine to use, I think I just missed the part about alternating/mixing.

Appreciate the confirmation and quick help!


----------



## VALawnNoob

g-man said:


> @VALawnNoob you are going outside the general guidelines. I would follow whatever the bag says since it has a herbicide.


@g-man I didn't mean to go outside of the guidelines but maybe I miscommunicated  . I'm not suggesting that I use multiple bags of Weed & Feed to achieve the N blitz. I really mean to say after using other ferts for N blitz, can I use Weed & Feed bag as the last application before winter? My idea is that the herbicide is still following the bag rate according to the label but the extra fast Nitrogen can allow me to add to the blitz at the very end. Please let me know if this approach makes more sense or if it is still outside the guidelines? If so, can you explain the reason?


----------



## g-man

Weed and feed bags are a jack of all trades and master of none. You need to get the leaves wet before you apply so it sticks and then hope it work. If you need to get rid of weeds, I would use a real herbicide.


----------



## VALawnNoob

g-man said:


> Weed and feed bags are a jack of all trades and master of none. You need to get the leaves wet before you apply so it sticks and then hope it work. If you need to get rid of weeds, I would use a real herbicide.


I realized this year weed & feed sucks and what you mentioned but I have this last bag left over from previous season when I didn't know any better. Are you saying I should throw it away? I'm asking if just using it as last application of the season in Nov would make sense to finish N blitz rather than throw $50 in the trash. If it kills some left over weeds right before winter then so be it?


----------



## g-man

I think it might be better to use it now.


----------



## ken-n-nancy

VALawnNoob said:


> ... I have this last bag [of weed & feed] left over from previous season when I didn't know any better. Are you saying I should throw it away? I'm asking if just using it as last application of the season in Nov would make sense to finish N blitz rather than throw $50 in the trash. If it kills some left over weeds right before winter then so be it?





g-man said:


> I think it might be better to use it now.


+1.

Personally, I think that if one already has a weed-n-feed granular fertilizer, the best time to use it is early fall -- after the grass and weeds are all growing well again after any summer stress, and before the slowdown from winter's approach has taken place. Where I live in New Hampshire, that would have been a couple weeks ago. I speculate that down there in Virginia, it's probably right about now. I would use it instead of one of your "nitrogen blitz" applications.

As usual, g-man's advice is spot-on -- if you have a weed-n-feed product that you are trying to use up, the way to get the best effectiveness from it is to apply it when the grass blades are damp from morning dew (or with irrigation, a brief watering can accomplish that) so that the herbicide can stick to the grass blades. Personally, I would then water it in the following night (about 36 hours later) to get the fertilizer washed into the soil. Such an approach will maximize the effectiveness of the application.

Oh, and since you already have the weed-n-feed, it's much more environmentally friendly to apply the fertilizer to the lawn than to toss it in the trash where it will just end up concentrated in a landfill.


----------



## VALawnNoob

ken-n-nancy said:


> VALawnNoob said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I have this last bag [of weed & feed] left over from previous season when I didn't know any better. Are you saying I should throw it away? I'm asking if just using it as last application of the season in Nov would make sense to finish N blitz rather than throw $50 in the trash. If it kills some left over weeds right before winter then so be it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think it might be better to use it now.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> +1.
> 
> Personally, I think that if one already has a weed-n-feed granular fertilizer, the best time to use it is early fall -- after the grass and weeds are all growing well again after any summer stress, and before the slowdown from winter's approach has taken place. Where I live in New Hampshire, that would have been a couple weeks ago. I speculate that down there in Virginia, it's probably right about now. I would use it instead of one of your "nitrogen blitz" applications.
> 
> As usual, g-man's advice is spot-on -- if you have a weed-n-feed product that you are trying to use up, the way to get the best effectiveness from it is to apply it when the grass blades are damp from morning dew (or with irrigation, a brief watering can accomplish that) so that the herbicide can stick to the grass blades. Personally, I would then water it in the following night (about 36 hours later) to get the fertilizer washed into the soil. Such an approach will maximize the effectiveness of the application.
> 
> Oh, and since you already have the weed-n-feed, it's much more environmentally friendly to apply the fertilizer to the lawn than to toss it in the trash where it will just end up concentrated in a landfill.
Click to expand...

Thank you both for the advice. This is exactly what I was looking for. I had read about sticking to the grass blades but my weeds are few right now and on the decline due to temp drop so I really didn't care too much for the herbicide - if it is not effective - no big deal.


----------



## Marzbar

Sorry if this is a stupid question. If I am doing the Nitrogen blitz with urea, do I still need to apply a winter fertilizer?
Thanks.


----------



## g-man

No.


----------



## jperm47

Cross-posting this here for more visibility:

My partial reno / rehab is coming along fantastic. I've been spoon feeding Urea the past 3 weekends. I used a full 50 pound bag over 3 apps for 23k square feet. Should I go get more Urea and continue to spoon feed for the next couple of weeks or should I be switching over to Milo or Carbon-X, both of which I have in the shed ready to use? Also if I'm spoon feeding should I be doing a blitz of 1lb of N / 1000 as a final winterizer app?


----------



## ken-n-nancy

jperm47 said:


> Cross-posting this here for more visibility:
> 
> My partial reno / rehab is coming along fantastic. I've been spoon feeding Urea the past 3 weekends. I used a full 50 pound bag over 3 apps for 23k square feet. Should I go get more Urea and continue to spoon feed for the next couple of weeks or should I be switching over to Milo or Carbon-X, both of which I have in the shed ready to use? Also if I'm spoon feeding should I be doing a blitz of 1lb of N / 1000 as a final winterizer app?


Personally, I would recommend sticking with only fast-release fertilizers (as is described in the original posting in this Fall Nitrogen Blitz thread) for anything in fall after mid-September.

That means it is best to stick with either urea (46-0-0) or ammonium sulfate (21-0-0). Ammonium sulfate (AS) tends to be preferable for lawns that have a high pH because AS applications bring down pH just a tiny bit (which will add up over the course of years.)

The "final winterizer app" is also described in the first posting of this thread in the section subtitled "PS2." Making that application is a separate decision from whether or not to do "spoon feeding" during the fall nitrogen blitz.

(Personally, I think that the "final winterizer app" was increasing my likelihood of snow mold damage, but I haven't really done a controlled study to determine if that is actually true or just a hunch on my part.)


----------



## Copat

This may be a dumb question but what exactly is meant by "spoon feeding" (assuming it's obvious small amounts of nitrogen here and there)? But is there a better detailed description I can find?

I'm just reading the forum on the nitrogen blitz and missed it in the fall. Should I do it now or just use milo until this coming fall? I also saw Lowe's carries lesco 30-0-10 fertilizer. Or should I roll with urea 46-0-0 now or a liquid nitrogen like nso? TIA


----------



## Matthew_73

Copat said:


> This may be a dumb question but what exactly is meant by "spoon feeding" (assuming it's obvious small amounts of nitrogen here and there)? But is there a better detailed description I can find?
> 
> I'm just reading the forum on the nitrogen blitz and missed it in the fall. Should I do it now or just use milo until this coming fall? I also saw Lowe's carries lesco 30-0-10 fertilizer. Or should I roll with urea 46-0-0 now or a liquid nitrogen like nso? TIA


Spoon feeding is used when you apply small amounts of N or any other macro or micro. At smaller time incriminates. I spoon feed .25 pounds of N 2 week intervals. Instead of .75 on one app


----------



## Copat

@Matthew_73 thank you sir! Is that .25 pounds per 1ksqft? Is that urea you are applying?


----------



## Matthew_73

Yes. Per 1000 sq ft. It can be any feet. Preferably fast active.


----------



## ajahrendt07

If using 21-0-0 AMS instead of Urea for the blitz, am I I still applying the same amount as if I were using Urea? So I would be looking at doing the more intense version of 0.5lb/ksqft per week with the goal of filling in my KBG better.


----------



## CDR

I know spraying is better but I'm stuck using granular urea for the time being…

In a standard Lesco spreader, if I'm splitting apps to bi-weekly thus 1 lb per 1000 SF is the attached setting chart seem correct pending the prill size of the urea?
- if not, then what setting does everyone use?

Sorry for the dumb question…a back pack sprayer is on the list for next year.

https://www.masterblend.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Tyler-Spreader-Settings.pdf


----------



## g-man

I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.

Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.


----------



## gregfromohio

g-man said:


> I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.
> 
> Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.


Why do you not like foliar application? I do use granular for my feet applications but I thought foliar was good.


----------



## g-man

The research is based on soil nitrogen and not foliar. You can spray if you water in immediately.


----------



## jackallis

g-man said:


> I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.
> 
> Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.


...and turn on the sprinklers after?


----------



## Harts

jackallis said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.
> 
> Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and turn on the sprinklers after?
Click to expand...

If spreading granular, you can water the next morning.


----------



## spaceman_spiff

For the blitz, would this be acceptable?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Sunshine-Harvest-40-lbs-Box-Urea-Fertilizer-UGF-40/316885117

The pictures shows 18-46-0, but the description below mentions it's 46-0-0? It's probably the 'best' product that I can find locally.

According to https://turf.purdue.edu/fertilizer-calculator/
For 1600 sq ft, I need:


So, a 0.5lb N per 1000 sq ft weekly application for 1600 sq ft lawn requires 1.74lb of product. This means the 40lb box/bag would give me 23 applications, which would easily be good for a few years if my math is correct.

If that product sucks, where can I buy a decent urea online?


----------



## Chris LI

@spaceman_spiff 
HD site has the same question posted and someone answered that it's 46-0-0, so you should be good. I might even pick up some from them, if I can't make it over to my regular supplier.


----------



## CDR

g-man said:


> I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.
> 
> Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.


Interesting, thought you sprayed it. So if it's 1lb a 1000 sf and have 15k then should be putting min 15lbs throughout entire yard.

How much watering do you do after application, I don't have irrigation and with such a large yard I often try to use the rain as I don't want burning


----------



## g-man

> Therefore it is best for the urea to be watered in with 0.25-0.5 inches of gentle rain or irrigation within 1-2 days of application.


----------



## chRONic

g-man said:


> I don't use spray nitrogen for the fall and I don't really recommend it. It makes it harder to do when you want to do this weekly.
> 
> Get a scale and weight the amount you need for your area. Set the spreader at the lowest setting that will flow and go in multiple directions.


I think spraying it gives it a morr even application. Those granuals are so big that the lawn comes out spotty. I love spraying so I'm fine doing it weekly. I mix with a little iron and pgr as well and it works great!!


----------



## Timmyklus

I just put down 1 lb/ 1000sq ft of ammonium sulfate granules and it seemed a little light... and it was getting dark... did a little more research and it is actually more like 5 lbs of AS to get 1 lb of nitrogen :/ I think... hopefully. I ended up adding more to get the appropriate amount of nitro for this month, in the dark, with a headlamp , and planning to water in tomorrow morning. it might be nice to add the fact that the AS lb's required is not the same as lbs of nitrogen. hoping to top seed in a few weeks to thicken up the lawn and add some dense shade mix to the back yard. big trees are killing my standard perennial rye mix, too much shade

loving this site, have tenacity on order as well as soil surfactant and foliage surfactant. learning tons and having fun nerding out on this stuff.

Thanks for all the help!
Tim


----------



## JERSEY

yea.....its time......LOVE IT

I dont use urea. never have. It all works.

Good luck, happy Greening.


----------



## spaceman_spiff

Timmyklus said:



> I just put down 1 lb/ 1000sq ft of ammonium sulfate granules and it seemed a little light... and it was getting dark... did a little more research and it is actually more like 5 lbs of AS to get 1 lb of nitrogen :/ I think... hopefully. I ended up adding more to get the appropriate amount of nitro for this month, in the dark, with a headlamp , and planning to water in tomorrow morning. it might be nice to add the fact that the AS lb's required is not the same as lbs of nitrogen. hoping to top seed in a few weeks to thicken up the lawn and add some dense shade mix to the back yard. big trees are killing my standard perennial rye mix, too much shade
> 
> loving this site, have tenacity on order as well as soil surfactant and foliage surfactant. learning tons and having fun nerding out on this stuff.
> 
> Thanks for all the help!
> Tim


This calculator is ultra helpful in getting the right amount of N for your yard:
https://turf.purdue.edu/fertilizer-calculator/


----------



## jaygrizzle

Sorry if this has been answered before, but we just made it through an extremely hot and dry period and my KBG is a little worse for the wear. There are some dormant patches as I'm on a well and only able to water sparingly. The whole yard isn't dormant, but places near the driveway and sidewalk are dormant and a few other places.

Am I okay to go ahead and start the nitrogen blitz or do I need to wait for these dormant parts to bounce back first?


----------



## g-man

If you can't water those areas and they are dormant, nitrogen will stress them more and could kill some of it. Address the water issues first.


----------



## turfnsurf

g-man said:


> If you can't water those areas and they are dormant, nitrogen will stress them more and could kill some of it. Address the water issues first.


I've got areas that my irrigation doesn't really reach. I've decided to just use a watering can to get the water to those patchy spots.


----------



## ivan_pehar

A quick thank you for all the support here, I've been doing a ton of reading over the summer in preparation for my first blitz. I've been spoon feeding the last 3 weeks w/ .3/lbs per work in a small front yard 700sq/ft and the results have been fantastic! I've been mowing approximately every 3-4 days I love the sound of the mower firing up. I can't believe the change over the last week and the dark green colour coming up. Thks all again!!


----------



## Hawkeye_311

Here is a nice little fertilizer calculator from the University of Missouri that I like to use

http://agebb.missouri.edu/fertcalc/


----------



## wiread

Is there an average temp you guys stop putting N down? I got a late start because of some overseeding I did and am going to put one more .5lb per app in about 7-10 days depending on rain forecasts. Just wondering if I can maybe fit one more in early November if the temps stay up or just call it quits after the next one.


----------



## NJ-lawn

wiread said:


> Is there an average temp you guys stop putting N down? I got a late start because of some overseeding I did and am going to put one more .5lb per app in about 7-10 days depending on rain forecasts. Just wondering if I can maybe fit one more in early November if the temps stay up or just call it quits after the next one.


Look up your average first frost date…..that's when most people "pause". Then if your interested in doing a last final "winterizer" app, apply when your soil temps are between 33 and 40 degrees F


----------



## Allan-00

@wiread if the temps stay up, go for it


----------



## wiread

Thanks guys, i'm right in that average first frost date for here now. Doesn't look like it's happening in the next week anyway. Soil temps are in the low 60's. I'm going to plan on one more in about a week and will stretch it to 2 if the weather looks favorable.


----------



## GuinnessPhish

Trying to figure out if I'm understanding correctly.

I'm in northern virginia. I applied a pound of nitrogen on 9/7 and another pound of nitrogen on 10/10.

Should I put another pound of nitrogen down in November?


----------



## Harts

GuinnessPhish said:


> Trying to figure out if I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> I'm in northern virginia. I applied a pound of nitrogen on 9/7 and another pound of nitrogen on 10/10.
> 
> Should I put another pound of nitrogen down in November?


The idea behind the Fall N blitz is one pound per rolling month broken up into weekly or bi-weekly apps. You have taken the more aggressive route of doing 1lb all at once. I'm not sure how efficient this is. Typically you would 0.25lb N each week or 0.5lb N every other week.

What type of fertilizer are you using?

Depending on your temps in November, you might think about doing a smaller rate of nitrogen. Cool season grass loses nitrogen uptake ability the later you get into the Fall. So applying 1lb in November may mean that more than half of the N you put down won't be available to the plant.


----------



## GreenMountainLawn

Harts said:


> GuinnessPhish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to figure out if I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> I'm in northern virginia. I applied a pound of nitrogen on 9/7 and another pound of nitrogen on 10/10.
> 
> Should I put another pound of nitrogen down in November?
> 
> 
> 
> The idea behind the Fall N blitz is one pound per rolling month broken up into weekly or bi-weekly apps. You have taken the more aggressive route of doing 1lb all at once. I'm not sure how efficient this is. Typically you would 0.25lb N each week or 0.5lb N every other week.
> 
> What type of fertilizer are you using?
> 
> Depending on your temps in November, you might think about doing a smaller rate of nitrogen. Cool season grass loses nitrogen uptake ability the later you get into the Fall. So applying 1lb in November may mean that more than half of the N you put down won't be available to the plant.
Click to expand...

I like the idea of the .25lb per week and I know you made the point many times, but my issue is the prill size of the Urea. Its just to big to spread evenly at the low of a rate through my spreader. I have to put down at least .50lb per app, prob more to get even distribution. Scotts fert and some others have the smaller prill size which is nice, but not the straight Urea I get, at least locally. I know many spray Urea too, prob easier to control amount that way.


----------



## Harts

GreenMountainLawn said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GuinnessPhish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to figure out if I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> I'm in northern virginia. I applied a pound of nitrogen on 9/7 and another pound of nitrogen on 10/10.
> 
> Should I put another pound of nitrogen down in November?
> 
> 
> 
> The idea behind the Fall N blitz is one pound per rolling month broken up into weekly or bi-weekly apps. You have taken the more aggressive route of doing 1lb all at once. I'm not sure how efficient this is. Typically you would 0.25lb N each week or 0.5lb N every other week.
> 
> What type of fertilizer are you using?
> 
> Depending on your temps in November, you might think about doing a smaller rate of nitrogen. Cool season grass loses nitrogen uptake ability the later you get into the Fall. So applying 1lb in November may mean that more than half of the N you put down won't be available to the plant.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I like the idea of the .25lb per week and I know you made the point many times, but my issue is the prill size of the Urea. Its just to big to spread evenly at the low of a rate through my spreader. I have to put down at least .50lb per app, prob more to get even distribution. Scotts fert and some others have the smaller prill size which is nice, but not the straight Urea I get, at least locally. I know many spray Urea too, prob easier to control amount that way.
Click to expand...

If 0.5lb N is easier, then do that weekly. I've done many times including this Fall.

Urea in general is a larger prill. But to be honest, I have the small crappy Scott's spreader and I've never had an issue with spreading small rates of urea. I've also used a hand spreader without issue.


----------



## uts

I've been trying to read up on studies that tracked nitrogen utilization from fast release urea sources (and this is for urea only). With simple urea only about 30-35% is utilized. The rest is pretty much wasted, due to various reasons.

With big dumps of urea the amount of waste is magnified partially due to the movement of N in the soil.

Slow release urea sources bump that utilization upto 60% but even then 40% being wasted is a big number.

Small frequent apps are almost always better. Try finding something like milorganite and mix with urea to apply a more even app for smaller amounts of urea.


----------



## Stuofsci02

The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.

If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.

For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".

The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.


----------



## GreenMountainLawn

Stuofsci02 said:


> The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.
> 
> If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.
> 
> For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".
> 
> The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.


Yes, this is perfect explanation, I should have said prill spacing versus not spreading evenly, they just seem so far apart at those low rates. Your math leads credence to why I'm usually putting down at least .50lb, I'm probably closer to .65"-.75" and why I only do it a few times in fall during the blitz. But that is a good question about the ideal minimum prill spacing.


----------



## wiread

If I had a smaller yard and could walk and spray with backpack and then put water to it after easy enough, I'd likely spray. I enjoy the walk. But as it stands, I have to fill up my 31 gallon at least twice and fire up the mower and pull it around and to do that every week in addition to everything else going on just got to be too big of a PITA. .25 every week was too often in the fall and if I did more I'd have to plan for rain.

I put down just over .5lbs per with my spreader, it works. I enjoy the walk and last week i did it in the dark, no mower running, no sprayer to take care of when i'm done, no noise, just went for a walk, quick hosed off spreader and done. But like others have said, I tried getting it to the .25lbs to do every week and I just didn't get a uniform spread at all with the pellets I get.

Pro's and con's to everything. I've done both, and I won't win any awards, but i'm happy that either way works and the grass looks much better than not


----------



## Stuofsci02

GreenMountainLawn said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.
> 
> If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.
> 
> For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".
> 
> The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this is perfect explanation, I should have said prill spacing versus not spreading evenly, they just seem so far apart at those low rates. Your math leads credence to why I'm usually putting down at least .50lb, I'm probably closer to .65"-.75" and why I only do it a few times in fall during the blitz. But that is a good question about the ideal minimum prill spacing.
Click to expand...

Like you, I found this to be the case when applying granular. As a "nerd", I set out to calculate it for myself to demonstrate my theoretical min application rate. And I should note that this same calculation holds true for other granulars with similar prill sizes that use urea as a main ingredient. The numbers will be different, but you will end up at a similar result.

The issue is further complicated in the fact that even if you can "do it in theory" it is far harder to do in practice. Overlap, equipment, wind, random distribution are all amplified near the theoretical minimum. The higher you go the better overall even distribution you will get. As such I don't even mess with anything less than 0.75 lb per N per K anymore on established grass with synthetic urea based granulars. I will go down to the 1/2 lb N per K when I am using a 16-16-16 for the first two apps on newly seeded areas. In the fall when the grass can take it I put down 1 lb N per K of urea every time (which is every 3-4 weeks). It saves time and IMO provides more even coverage.

As I have always had good results, and have not seen anyone achieve noticeably superior results by applying at more frequent low rates, I am not planning to adjust my application rate. I am, however, looking at increasing frequency later in the season when plant uptake is lower. For example, applying 1lb N in August and Sept and then 2 lbs N in Oct. This would only be for my higher quality turf in the front that gets reel mowed. The back area only gets two applications (Late Aug and Late Sept).

Cheers!


----------



## Harts

@Stuofsci02 can you explain the reasoning behind applying more N when plant uptake is lower? Seems to me that would be a waste of product.


----------



## osuturfman

Stuofsci02 said:


> The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.
> 
> If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.
> 
> For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".
> 
> The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.


A post I wrote several years ago on the importance of prill size.

https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=26284#p26284

In this case, you can spend the extra money to get 90-150 SGN fertilizer, making low-rate granular applications possible.


----------



## Stuofsci02

Harts said:


> @Stuofsci02 can you explain the reasoning behind applying more N when plant uptake is lower? Seems to me that would be a waste of product.


In early fall much of the Nitrogen from Urea is lost to denitrification, ammonia volatization and nitrate leaching due to moist/warm soil conditions, and fall precipitation. Besides an even application, this is one of the other reasons that I go with a higher rate 1 lb N/k and why I would like to squeeze in an extra application. This is most certainly wasteful, but any broadcast surface spread of urea is (regardless of the application rate). My goal is not to be most efficient with the amount of urea that I use, but rather provide the grass the most beneficial amount of N to "maximize" late season recovery, appearance and color. Urea is cheap and if I use an extra $10 worth per season it is not a concern to me.

So normally for my front yard I would do applications around ~Aug 20th, Sept 20th and Oct 20th with the last one mostly not being available to the plant this year. The back yard I skip the Oct application because frankly I just don't care as much about that section of my yard.

My thinking is to change it as follows (adjusting for weather of course): Aug 20th, Sept 20th, Oct 10th, Oct 25th - Nov 1st. Fitting in more N when the plant can still use it (albeit not as efficiently in early Oct).

In the late fall (when soil temps are lower, and the soil is dryer) I am aiming to get the urea into the ground and converted to ammonia. Since the micro-organisms in the soil won't be nearly as active, the urea should only be converted to ammonia and get tied to the soil where there won't be much leaching or denitrification. The idea is that you have a layer of Ammonia N in the soil root zone that is stable over the winter and is available to the plant whenever it can take it such as late fall, but mostly early spring. Many would refer to this as a "winterizer" application. You might ask... if you want the fertilizer next spring, why not just apply it then? The issue is that next spring it will be wetter & warmer and you will again loose a lot to denitrification, volatiation and leaching. You are also unlikely to get it applied and available to the plant as early as it can use it.

I know there is a lot of research done on the winterizer application not being overly effective. I think though a lot of it has to do with application timing. You want to get it down within a couple of days of 1/4" to 1/2" rain (as close to rain as possible) to get the urea into the soil and have the soil temps between 40F-45F. If this doesn't happen then the application won't work as intended.

One of my favorite parts of this hobby is early spring green-up. That is; having a lawn that looks lush and green while others are still dormant. I have several tricks that I use to try to reach this goal, but I think having early spring N in the ground helps.

As always YMMV..


----------



## Stuofsci02

osuturfman said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.
> 
> If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.
> 
> For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".
> 
> The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.
> 
> 
> 
> A post I wrote several years ago on the importance of prill size.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=26284#p26284
> 
> In this case, you can spend the extra money to get 90-150 SGN fertilizer, making low-rate granular applications possible.
Click to expand...

This does help, but would not IMO let you drop the application rate by more that say 20%. The 55 lb bags of urea I buy is $23.25 each $CAD (arctic pesos). In $US this is about $18. I'd rather just apply cheap urea heavier than spend more so I can apply less at a time (as long as it does not hurt the turf).


----------



## SNOWBOB11

Another option is to use ammonium sulfate, which has less than half the % of nitrogen per lb than urea. That way you spread more lb per k and a higher total of prill go down.


----------



## uts

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Another option is to use ammonium sulfate, which has less than half the % of nitrogen per lb than urea. That way you spread more lb per k and a higher total of prill go down.


I agree with this so much the more and more I've read stuff. The N% utilization per lb of N applied is much much higher with AS due to all the environmental factors that cause urea losses.

I agree that AS is more expensive (usually twice the price) but I think if it's just fast release, the N utlization more than enough compensates for the price and its easier to spread.

I know AS has a higher salt index, higher chance of burn but most people in this discussions are very careful and irrigate/or time with rain appropriately.


----------



## Stuofsci02

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Another option is to use ammonium sulfate, which has less than half the % of nitrogen per lb than urea. That way you spread more lb per k and a higher total of prill go down.


100% agreed.. AS is also going to be better in the fall anyhow... My issues is I have urea at 43 cents per pound 10 min from my house. AS is harder for me to get and more expensive...


----------



## g-man

Stuofsci02 said:


> In early fall much of the Nitrogen from Urea is lost to denitrification, ammonia volatization and nitrate leaching due to moist/warm soil conditions, and fall precipitation.


This is not accurate and more so in Canada weather with native soils.



> I think though a lot of it has to do with application timing.


Test it with your yard. You have a large lawn. Treat half the way you are thinking and half or 1/4 with nothing in late October. Post images and let's see more images in Canada spring (May?  ).

 2020 winterizer experiment


----------



## g-man

This year I wanted to try the approach @osuturfman explained in the past. It leverages slow release fert earlier in the season. I've used XGRN which has some fast and some slow. I did do one app of MAP and AMS in early September. My last N app for the year was 24sept from XGRN.


----------



## osuturfman

Stuofsci02 said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> The issue with spreading low doses of urea is not that you can't spread it evenly, it is that you end up with prill spacing so large that some grass plant are getting N while others do not. To visualize the extreme, 4 prills can be spread across 1000 sqft evenly, but this would not mean the grass gets an even dose of N.
> 
> If we assume for an example (and I am not saying this exact number is the case) that for an even dose of N you need 36 prills for every square ft (1 prill for every 4 sq in or a 2" prill spacing)then for every 1000 sqft you would need 36,000 prills. Whatever 36,000 prills weigh times 0.46 is the theoretical minimum dose of N you can spread evenly.
> 
> For the urea that I get there is ~33,800 prills per lb. I have measured and calculated this myself. So 36,000/33,800 * 0.46 = 0.49 lb N per k, would be my theoretical min N dose to get a prill spacing on the ground every 2".
> 
> The question is what is the maximum prill spacing that leads to even N to the plants. I don't know this, but I assume 2" would be getting close.
> 
> 
> 
> A post I wrote several years ago on the importance of prill size.
> 
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=26284#p26284
> 
> In this case, you can spend the extra money to get 90-150 SGN fertilizer, making low-rate granular applications possible.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This does help, but would not IMO let you drop the application rate by more that say 20%. The 55 lb bags of urea I buy is $23.25 each $CAD (arctic pesos). In $US this is about $18. I'd rather just apply cheap urea heavier than spend more so I can apply less at a time (as long as it does not hurt the turf).
Click to expand...

You can easily run as low as 1.5 lb/M on a 100 SGN product.

Especially in Canada, I would rethink the program you wish to move toward with later N apps. This is based on the most recent research out of UW-Madison and 8 years of experience in a variety of situations using those evidence-based concepts.

@g-man makes some valid points.


----------



## SNOWBOB11

I read in @Pete1313 journal he stated he applied 1.25 lb N/M polymer coated urea the beginning of September and that was going to be the bulk of his fall nitrogen. I suppose there is less loss from polymer coated urea than faster release nitrogen. I thought this was interesting as if that's true it would let the nitrogen slowly feed the turf from the early part of fall when uptake is higher then tailer off as the season comes to a close.


----------



## osuturfman

SNOWBOB11 said:


> I read in @Pete1313 journal he stated he applied 1.25 lb N/M polymer coated urea the beginning of September and that was going to be the bulk of his fall nitrogen. I suppose there is less loss from polymer coated urea than faster release nitrogen. I thought this was interesting as if that's true it would let the nitrogen slowly feed the turf from the early part of fall when uptake is higher then tailer off as the season comes to a close.


More pros than cons to this tactic. Methylene urea would be the slow-release N form of choice for these late season apps. 
It is temperature and moisture dependent for release and minimal losses through the winter as compared to poly coated or all mineral sources.


----------



## Stuofsci02

g-man said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In early fall much of the Nitrogen from Urea is lost to denitrification, ammonia volatization and nitrate leaching due to moist/warm soil conditions, and fall precipitation.
> 
> 
> 
> This is not accurate and more so in Canada weather with native soils.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think though a lot of it has to do with application timing.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Test it with your yard. You have a large lawn. Treat half the way you are thinking and half or 1/4 with nothing in late October. Post images and let's see more images in Canada spring (May?  ).
> 
> 2020 winterizer experiment
Click to expand...

@g-man 
Can you explain what is not accurate about early fall Urea loss? I suppose I should not reference just fall as this would also be the case in spring and summer (although I would not suggest granular urea in the summer for most). It is my understanding that with the temperatures warmer (70F-75F), a moist layer at the surface and no precipitation for a few days after application as much as 40% N can be lost. This loss begins to happen immediately after application. Watering in quickly can reduces losses for sure. Once the temperatures drop and the surface of the soil is less moist, losses are reduced considerably (0-20%). If there is something that I am missing I would like to know.

I already fertilize my back 15,000 sqft differently than my front 10,000 sqft. Unfortunately I also treat them differently in a variety of other ways too (cut frequency, HOC, type of mower, watering frequency throughout the year etc.) so no scientific comparison could be made.


----------



## Stuofsci02

osuturfman said:


> You can easily run as low as 1.5 lb/M on a 100 SGN product.


I don't disagree, but would this still not be 0.70 lb N/M?


----------



## osuturfman

Stuofsci02 said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can easily run as low as 1.5 lb/M on a 100 SGN product.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree, but would this still not be 0.70 lb N/M?
Click to expand...

No. You would be hard pressed to find a straight urea or AMS product that's 180 SGN or less and not a soluble form.

Most of what you'll find in these types of fertilizers are analyses of 25% or less of N.

A typical product I spec this time of year is a 100 SGN Andersons 13-2-13.

So at 1.5 lb/M, for example, I can run about 0.2 lb N/M.



Pressing the Easy Button on this would be using Scotts fertilizer from a big box. Similar principles, albeit more expensive.


----------



## Chris LI

All great points. My big gripe this season was the SGN of the Sunshine Harvest jumbo prills that I bought online, because I was too busy to go to my usual provider who gives me mini prills (Kirby). That's why I'm applying it at 1.5x the usual rate, so I can get better coverage (and use this junk up more quickly).

Urea has performed very well for me, so I tend to use it over AS, because my soil's pH is already too low. However, I like the AS because it is also small and slightly less than half the percentage of N, so you get a better spread, since you have to apply 2x+ the amount of urea. I also like it for the last app, because it is more effective in cooler weather. I may do both for my last app this year, to get rid of my junk (jumbo) urea.


----------



## Stuofsci02

osuturfman said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can easily run as low as 1.5 lb/M on a 100 SGN product.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't disagree, but would this still not be 0.70 lb N/M?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No. You would be hard pressed to find a straight urea or AMS product that's 180 SGN or less and not a soluble form.
> 
> Most of what you'll find in these types of fertilizers are analyses of 25% or less of N.
> 
> A typical product I spec this time of year is a 100 SGN Andersons 13-2-13.
> 
> So at 1.5 lb/M, for example, I can run about 0.2 lb N/M.
> 
> 
> 
> Pressing the Easy Button on this would be using Scotts fertilizer from a big box. Similar principles, albeit more expensive.
Click to expand...

I do have similar options to this, but I don't tend to use them in the fall. My late August app I use a 30-0-8 with a poly coated urea to slow the release, but then after that I go to straight 46-0-0. I typically do a single app in the spring with a slow release N (still synthetic mind you). This application is done usually in early-mid May (I don't seem to need anything prior to that). All of these apps however, I am dropping between 0.75 and 1 lb N/k. The only low dose apps are when I spray urea 0.125 lb N every two weeks or so throughout the summer. I am also mixing the spray with Ferrous Hep and PGR as when needed.

One year I did a organic product over the summer with two apps(Late June and Late July) of 0.25 Lb N/K but it was a 9-2-2 product so very easy to spread.. I liked the results, but it was very expensive for my property size..


----------



## Stuofsci02

Chris LI said:


> All great points. My big gripe this season was the SGN of the Sunshine Harvest jumbo prills that I bought online, because I was too busy to go to my usual provider who gives me mini prills (Kirby). That's why I'm applying it at 1.5x the usual rate, so I can get better coverage (and use this junk up more quickly).
> 
> Urea has performed very well for me, so I tend to use it over AS, because my soil's pH is already too low. However, I like the AS because it is also small and slightly less than half the percentage of N, so you get a better spread, since you have to apply 2x+ the amount of urea. I also like it for the last app, because it is more effective in cooler weather. I may do both for my last app this year, to get rid of my junk (jumbo) urea.


Yeah I have had a some big prill stuff before.. I saved it for spray, but it takes a long time to use up...


----------



## bf7

@Chris LI After I ran out of my urea from Advanced Turf Solutions, I also tried Sunshine Harvest this year and was caught off guard by the prill size difference. That might help explain the low price compared to other options online. Fortunately I spray 90% of the time.


----------



## Chris LI

bf7 said:


> @Chris LI After I ran out of my urea from Advanced Turf Solutions, I also tried Sunshine Harvest this year and was caught off guard by the prill size difference. That might help explain the low price compared to other options online. Fortunately I spray 90% of the time.


I believe you hit the nail on the head. Those were my thoughts, too. I should have either made the time to go to my turf supplier, or ordered the Greenway Biotech online. They were my first source years ago, before I started buying full 50 lb bags locally, and their prill size was good. They cost more than the SH, but are worth it for better coverage at lower rates.


----------



## GuinnessPhish

Harts said:


> GuinnessPhish said:
> 
> 
> 
> Trying to figure out if I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> I'm in northern virginia. I applied a pound of nitrogen on 9/7 and another pound of nitrogen on 10/10.
> 
> Should I put another pound of nitrogen down in November?
> 
> 
> 
> The idea behind the Fall N blitz is one pound per rolling month broken up into weekly or bi-weekly apps. You have taken the more aggressive route of doing 1lb all at once. I'm not sure how efficient this is. Typically you would 0.25lb N each week or 0.5lb N every other week.
> 
> What type of fertilizer are you using?
> 
> Depending on your temps in November, you might think about doing a smaller rate of nitrogen. Cool season grass loses nitrogen uptake ability the later you get into the Fall. So applying 1lb in November may mean that more than half of the N you put down won't be available to the plant.
Click to expand...

I think it was a 30-0-0 fertilizer. I believe it was mostly slow release. I got the fertilizer for free from someone getting rid of it in my neighborhood.

I just started taking care of my lawn last year. I started by dethatching, core aerating, and overseeding. Then this year I got the soil tested and the results were that my pH was low (about 5.4, I believe), so I've put down lime in the spring and the fall. I've put down fertilizer a few times this year along with some weed control, and compared to last year, my lawn is looking much better, due to the increased fertilizer, mulch mowing, and weed control. These most recent applications of fertilizer seem to have helped as well.

If I do thrown down another pound of nitrogen in a couple of weeks, will the nitrogen remain in the soil for the spring?


----------



## Chris LI

@GuinnessPhish 
I would put it down a little sooner. You're at average first frost now. I put the zip from Herndon (20170) in the FF calculator on Dave's Garden. https://davesgarden.com/guides/freeze-frost-dates/index.php?q=20170&submit=Go

The nitrogen will be absorbed by the roots and stored over winter. You should have a nice surprise with earlier greenup in the spring, and color should hang on later into the fall. With the lawn still actively growing, you can mulch a lot of leaves into the lawn weekly (or 2x per week) for great organic material (OM), and no raking.


----------



## g-man

Stuofsci02 said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In early fall much of the Nitrogen from Urea is lost to denitrification, ammonia volatization and nitrate leaching due to moist/warm soil conditions, and fall precipitation.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain what is not accurate about early fall Urea loss? I suppose I should not reference just fall as this would also be the case in spring and summer (although I would not suggest granular urea in the summer for most). It is my understanding that with the temperatures warmer (70F-75F), a moist layer at the surface and no precipitation for a few days after application as much as 40% N can be lost. This loss begins to happen immediately after application. Watering in quickly can reduces losses for sure. Once the temperatures drop and the surface of the soil is less moist, losses are reduced considerably (0-20%). If there is something that I am missing I would like to know.
> 
> I already fertilize my back 15,000 sqft differently than my front 10,000 sqft. Unfortunately I also treat them differently in a variety of other ways too (cut frequency, HOC, type of mower, watering frequency throughout the year etc.) so no scientific comparison could be made.
Click to expand...

Your statement that most of the nitrogen from urea is lost to denitrification is not accurate. Denitrification is a function of microbial activity and anaerobic soil conditions. The microbes make the soil N become a gas and not available to the plant (like the 70% of the nitrogen in the air we breath). But for this to happen in turf, you need warm soils + high moisture in the soil that reduces the available oxygen. 6in of rain in July, sure you could see it. In the fall, not likely. If any happens, the losses are not significant. One of the benefits of aeration is to increase the oxygen levels of the soil. More info from Bill Kreuserp I think I've been concerned with denitrification once in my yard, but I wasnt even sure.


----------



## Stuofsci02

g-man said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In early fall much of the Nitrogen from Urea is lost to denitrification, ammonia volatization and nitrate leaching due to moist/warm soil conditions, and fall precipitation.
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain what is not accurate about early fall Urea loss? I suppose I should not reference just fall as this would also be the case in spring and summer (although I would not suggest granular urea in the summer for most). It is my understanding that with the temperatures warmer (70F-75F), a moist layer at the surface and no precipitation for a few days after application as much as 40% N can be lost. This loss begins to happen immediately after application. Watering in quickly can reduces losses for sure. Once the temperatures drop and the surface of the soil is less moist, losses are reduced considerably (0-20%). If there is something that I am missing I would like to know.
> 
> I already fertilize my back 15,000 sqft differently than my front 10,000 sqft. Unfortunately I also treat them differently in a variety of other ways too (cut frequency, HOC, type of mower, watering frequency throughout the year etc.) so no scientific comparison could be made.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your statement that most of the nitrogen from urea is lost to denitrification is not accurate. Denitrification is a function of microbial activity and anaerobic soil conditions. The microbes make the soil N become a gas and not available to the plant (like the 70% of the nitrogen in the air we breath). But for this to happen in turf, you need warm soils + high moisture in the soil that reduces the available oxygen. 6in of rain in July, sure you could see it. In the fall, not likely. If any happens, the losses are not significant. One of the benefits of aeration is to increase the oxygen levels of the soil. More info from Bill Kreuserp I think I've been concerned with denitrification once in my yard, but I wasnt even sure.
Click to expand...

Thanks for providing the link to the article. We use denitrification in wastewater treatment (the industry I am in) to convert bio available nitrogen in the water to nitrogen gas before discharge. And yes this is primarily an anoxic process although there are also ways to do it aerobically (however this would not apply here).

I would, however, like to point out that I did not state that "most of the nitrogen from urea is lost to denitrification". I stated that much of the Nitrogen from Urea (when surface/broadcast applied) is lost to three causes, with denitrification being one of them. I further clarified that this could be as high as 40% combined and tends to be worse when it is warmer and moister (again as it applies to surface application). When you might have cool nights with dew, but warm days (late summer early fall depending on location). Watering in can certainly minimize losses.

The idea I was trying to convey is that with Nitrogen loss (especially in early fall, which I define by when the Nitrogen Blitz starts and not necessarily Sept 21st), a person is likely not actually getting the full 1 lb N per K per month to the plant if they are using a straight fast release urea. As such, (for me specifically) is there an opportunity to reduce application intervals slightly to get an extra application which would land earlier in October when there will be higher plant uptake due to the weather still be pretty good (in my area). In essence putting down 1.33 lbs N/K per rolling month. I do believe you even discuss going further than this (2 lbs N/K per rolling month) when pushing a sparse lawn to fill in. My blitz season is inevitably shorter than yours (starts around the same time in late Aug but by end of Oct the grass is not growing anymore). As such I have less recovery time from summer.

The "winterizer" app is a different subject entirely, and certainly there has been a lot of testing, discussion and debate. It may well be that in the long run this application is the least important app after years of folks saying it was the most important app. For me, I like to have green later in the fall and earlier in the spring. Does this help? Maybe...maybe not.. Lots of farmers like to fall "band" nitrogen to get a better start in spring. It costs me about $10 and 10 minutes to do this app, and aside from that I am not aware of any negatives...

Cheers


----------



## osuturfman

Stuofsci02 said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you explain what is not accurate about early fall Urea loss? I suppose I should not reference just fall as this would also be the case in spring and summer (although I would not suggest granular urea in the summer for most). It is my understanding that with the temperatures warmer (70F-75F), a moist layer at the surface and no precipitation for a few days after application as much as 40% N can be lost. This loss begins to happen immediately after application. Watering in quickly can reduces losses for sure. Once the temperatures drop and the surface of the soil is less moist, losses are reduced considerably (0-20%). If there is something that I am missing I would like to know.
> 
> I already fertilize my back 15,000 sqft differently than my front 10,000 sqft. Unfortunately I also treat them differently in a variety of other ways too (cut frequency, HOC, type of mower, watering frequency throughout the year etc.) so no scientific comparison could be made.
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement that most of the nitrogen from urea is lost to denitrification is not accurate. Denitrification is a function of microbial activity and anaerobic soil conditions. The microbes make the soil N become a gas and not available to the plant (like the 70% of the nitrogen in the air we breath). But for this to happen in turf, you need warm soils + high moisture in the soil that reduces the available oxygen. 6in of rain in July, sure you could see it. In the fall, not likely. If any happens, the losses are not significant. One of the benefits of aeration is to increase the oxygen levels of the soil. More info from Bill Kreuserp I think I've been concerned with denitrification once in my yard, but I wasnt even sure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for providing the link to the article. We use denitrification in wastewater treatment (the industry I am in) to convert bio available nitrogen in the water to nitrogen gas before discharge. And yes this is primarily an anoxic process although there are also ways to do it aerobically (however this would not apply here).
> 
> I would, however, like to point out that I did not state that "most of the nitrogen from urea is lost to denitrification". I stated that much of the Nitrogen from Urea (when surface/broadcast applied) is lost to three causes, with denitrification being one of them. I further clarified that this could be as high as 40% combined and tends to be worse when it is warmer and moister (again as it applies to surface application). When you might have cool nights with dew, but warm days (late summer early fall depending on location). Watering in can certainly minimize losses.
> 
> The idea I was trying to convey is that with Nitrogen loss (especially in early fall, which I define by when the Nitrogen Blitz starts and not necessarily Sept 21st), a person is likely not actually getting the full 1 lb N per K per month to the plant if they are using a straight fast release urea. As such, (for me specifically) is there an opportunity to reduce application intervals slightly to get an extra application which would land earlier in October when there will be higher plant uptake due to the weather still be pretty good (in my area). In essence putting down 1.33 lbs N/K per rolling month. I do believe you even discuss going further than this (2 lbs N/K per rolling month) when pushing a sparse lawn to fill in. My blitz season is inevitably shorter than yours (starts around the same time in late Aug but by end of Oct the grass is not growing anymore). As such I have less recovery time from summer.
> 
> The "winterizer" app is a different subject entirely, and certainly there has been a lot of testing, discussion and debate. It may well be that in the long run this application is the least important app after years of folks saying it was the most important app. For me, I like to have green later in the fall and earlier in the spring. Does this help? Maybe...maybe not.. Lots of farmers like to fall "band" nitrogen to get a better start in spring. It costs me about $10 and 10 minutes to do this app, and aside from that I am not aware of any negatives...
> 
> Cheers
Click to expand...

The October apps become less efficient. ET rates are the biggest driving force.

If you're interested in learning more about efficacy and efficiency of these applications, I suggest you watch this webinar from Dr. Doug Soldat.

https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/fall-winter-prep-part-i-fundamentals-of-fall-fertilization-r187/


----------



## Stuofsci02

@osuturfman .. Thanks for the link. I'm sure I watched this a couple of seasons back, but I'd like to watch it again. As I recall the study tracked mainly root mass and tracked nitrogen uptake and found root mass was mostly unaffected and nitrogen uptake went down dramatically when ET rates drop below 0.1. This makes sense as in general this is also when I see clipping yields go way down.

The one thing I thing that I recall was it demonstrated that better color later in the season and earlier green up could be achieved with at least some N later in the fall. For me this is a big advantage even if the overall plant remains mostly unaffected in other ways. I don't think this was in the webinar, but I feel like the earlier green up in the spring (from fall N) comes without as much of the added top growth you would otherwise get by an early spring app to achieve the same green up.

One test I would like to see done is run the same program applied to damaged or unfull turf to see how it affects recovery after summer. It is one thing to say that a full healthy lawn does not benefit from higher or late season N, but in the real world summer damage and recovery are more than half the battle. Also is there a disadvantage to doing it aside from cost? More prone to Fungus maybe?

Cheers!


----------



## Dude

The ET comment makes sense, as ~85% of N uptake is due to mass flow.

Looks like I cropped some images from a turfnet webinar (can't remember which one) in a place that leaves out some details about where the info is coming from...

But these images might be helpful for some:

Root mass and N rates:



Top growth:



Fall to June Uptake:


----------



## uts

Stuofsci02 said:


> @osuturfman .. Thanks for the link. I'm sure I watched this a couple of seasons back, but I'd like to watch it again. As I recall the study tracked mainly root mass and tracked nitrogen uptake and found root mass was mostly unaffected and nitrogen uptake went down dramatically when ET rates drop below 0.1. This makes sense as in general this is also when I see clipping yields go way down.
> 
> The one thing I thing that I recall was it demonstrated that better color later in the season and earlier green up could be achieved with at least some N later in the fall. For me this is a big advantage even if the overall plant remains mostly unaffected in other ways. I don't think this was in the webinar, but I feel like the earlier green up in the spring (from fall N) comes without as much of the added top growth you would otherwise get by an early spring app to achieve the same green up.
> 
> One test I would like to see done is run the same program applied to damaged or unfull turf to see how it affects recovery after summer. It is one thing to say that a full healthy lawn does not benefit from higher or late season N, but in the real world summer damage and recovery are more than half the battle. Also is there a disadvantage to doing it aside from cost? More prone to Fungus maybe?
> 
> Cheers!


That webinar is awesome. There was a difference in KBG and bentgrass. The KBG did show a difference.

No fall nitrogen resulted in earlier dormancy for the plant. This was beneficial if disease/fungus could not be controlled. Small apps resulted in excellent color response with no big difference with increase of N from 0.5-1.

The most relevant piece to the earlier discussion was this. The amount of N absorbed via the app as the season went ahead.



These were the recs.



They went on to say that oct apps should probably be only 0.25lbs and spoon feedings be 0.1lbs

Edit:
@Dude those are from the same webinar. I have the same images saved. If you look the KBG does have root mass increase with N as well upto a point.

Edit2

I love how nerdy this conversation is


----------



## Stuofsci02

@uts @Dude … yeah those screenshots definitely look familiar.. the conclusions seem so contrary to the whole premise of the blitz.. and a whole lot less fun.. have these same tests been replicated by others for cool season turf in other northern areas or is this the only study?

So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions. If I cut back on fall N per the conclusions I save at most 40lbs of urea per season or about 20 Arctic pesos.. my back 15,000 sqft I already run a low N program with 1 lb in spring and 2 lbs in fall (Aug and Sept). What are the pros of cutting back the N on my front in the fall, noting that I am going for max overall appearance and max "green" days per season. I am not trying to get best bang for the buck and say I got 90% of the results for 50% of the inputs..


----------



## Dude

@uts Yeah, but...it wasn't of statistical significance, right? I think I should re-watch - saw that my screenshots are two years old. Also, I like that we took the same screenshots.

Idk, I'm fine with 60-80% 28 day recovery, although it's probably not the best for the environment.

Foliar does seem to be the way to go with N. The foliar fertilizers webinar was awesome: https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/the-ins-and-outs-of-foliar-fertilizers-r27/


----------



## uts

Dude said:


> @uts Yeah, but...it wasn't of statistical significance, right? I think I should re-watch - saw that my screenshots are two years old. Also, I like that we took the same screenshots.
> 
> Idk, I'm fine with 60-80% 28 day recovery, although it's probably not the best for the environment.
> 
> Foliar does seem to be the way to go with N. The foliar fertilizers webinar was awesome: https://www.turfnet.com/webinar_archives.html/the-ins-and-outs-of-foliar-fertilizers-r27/


It's been a while that I watched so I don't remember the statistical significance but that's a good point.

The 80% 28 day recovery is of the 20% that was taken. So if they applied 1lb in Oct, only 0.2lb was taken overall and 0.16lb (20%)was taken in 28 days. The November numbers are even worse. So the amount of N wasted is crazy. foliar is easier and more precise with those amounts.


----------



## uts

Stuofsci02 said:


> @uts @Dude … yeah those screenshots definitely look familiar.. the conclusions seem so contrary to the whole premise of the blitz.. and a whole lot less fun.. have these same tests been replicated by others for cool season turf in other northern areas or is this the only study?
> 
> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions. If I cut back on fall N per the conclusions I save at most 40lbs of urea per season or about 20 Arctic pesos.. my back 15,000 sqft I already run a low N program with 1 lb in spring and 2 lbs in fall (Aug and Sept). What are the pros of cutting back the N on my front in the fall, noting that I am going for max overall appearance and max "green" days per season. I am not trying to get best bang for the buck and say I got 90% of the results for 50% of the inputs..


There has been a host of different studies on root mass and yes while most of them have concluded no noticeable difference in late fall there are 2 important points.

1. Fall fertilized turf has a higher amount of root mass that progresses through the winter into early spring. Early Spring fert apps usually cause top growth at the expense of root growth. Late fall fertilizedturf usually doesn't need that fert so doesn't stop/minimize root growth.

2. The amount of carbohydrates stored by fall fertilized turf is much higher than non fertilizer turf.

Both these reasons also help in earlier spring greenup and a decreased need for spring nitrogen application.

I dont think saving money was ever the point. Te point is how much N are you just loosing away (environmental responsibility) and you could achieve 90-95% of your result with maybe half or even less of the product you are currently applying.


----------



## Stuofsci02

uts said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @uts @Dude … yeah those screenshots definitely look familiar.. the conclusions seem so contrary to the whole premise of the blitz.. and a whole lot less fun.. have these same tests been replicated by others for cool season turf in other northern areas or is this the only study?
> 
> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions. If I cut back on fall N per the conclusions I save at most 40lbs of urea per season or about 20 Arctic pesos.. my back 15,000 sqft I already run a low N program with 1 lb in spring and 2 lbs in fall (Aug and Sept). What are the pros of cutting back the N on my front in the fall, noting that I am going for max overall appearance and max "green" days per season. I am not trying to get best bang for the buck and say I got 90% of the results for 50% of the inputs..
> 
> 
> 
> There has been a host of different studies on root mass and yes while most of them have concluded no noticeable difference in late fall there are 2 important points.
> 
> 1. Fall fertilized turf has a higher amount of root mass that progresses through the winter into early spring. Early Spring fert apps usually cause top growth at the expense of root growth. Late fall fertilizedturf usually doesn't need that fert so doesn't stop/minimize root growth.
> 
> 2. The amount of carbohydrates stored by fall fertilized turf is much higher than non fertilizer turf.
> 
> Both these reasons also help in earlier spring greenup and a decreased need for spring nitrogen application.
> 
> I dont think saving money was ever the point. Te point is how much N are you just loosing away (environmental responsibility) and you could achieve 90-95% of your result with maybe half or even less of the product you are currently applying.
Click to expand...

Ah yes…. Environmentally responsible is important but….. There are countless articles with titles such as " Your Perfect Lawn Is Bad for the Environment. Here's What to Do Instead"…. The whole hobby is an affront to hippies, environmentalists and people who don't like yard work. My septic system (and theirs) don't leach any N though :roll: ..

In fact the guy who owns the green space behind me wants to build some houses back there, one of the main barriers stopping him is the Nutrient levels in the soil are too high for additional septic systems…. There are several small "sand point" style wells back there where they test the nutrient levels in the ground water….. I'd like to keep that area a green space so I might just have to step up my N game a little more :lol:


----------



## Dude

@Stuofsci02 Idk, I'd say pros of cutting back are less time and money spent, and less leaching. Your lawn looks ridiculous right now :thumbup:. I'd honestly just keep doing what you have been doing.

You're talking to a chemical engineer currently working for a defense contractor - so I'm basically the anti-christ to hippies...but the N leaching studies do seem convincing. It's important to some people so figured it was worth a mention - probably why @uts mentioned it as well.

Watching a lot of these webinars, with few exceptions - I get the impression that nothing seems to matter to any great extent. It's far too easy to get sucked into the weeds on these things...

Practically though, my lawn has been massively improved - in both color and density by following the blitz and other members on this site (particularly those in my state.) This seems to be a common theme.

The turf pros and more experienced members on here might have better insight, but outside of fringe cases of outright deficiency (which even those levels seem to be debated), I don't think you'll do much better than taking an approach based on heuristics and following a lot of info as well as the senior members on this site.


----------



## Dude

uts said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @uts @Dude … yeah those screenshots definitely look familiar.. the conclusions seem so contrary to the whole premise of the blitz.. and a whole lot less fun.. have these same tests been replicated by others for cool season turf in other northern areas or is this the only study?
> 
> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions. If I cut back on fall N per the conclusions I save at most 40lbs of urea per season or about 20 Arctic pesos.. my back 15,000 sqft I already run a low N program with 1 lb in spring and 2 lbs in fall (Aug and Sept). What are the pros of cutting back the N on my front in the fall, noting that I am going for max overall appearance and max "green" days per season. I am not trying to get best bang for the buck and say I got 90% of the results for 50% of the inputs..
> 
> 
> 
> There has been a host of different studies on root mass and yes while most of them have concluded no noticeable difference in late fall there are 2 important points.
> 
> 1. Fall fertilized turf has a higher amount of root mass that progresses through the winter into early spring. Early Spring fert apps usually cause top growth at the expense of root growth. Late fall fertilizedturf usually doesn't need that fert so doesn't stop/minimize root growth.
> 
> 2. The amount of carbohydrates stored by fall fertilized turf is much higher than non fertilizer turf.
> 
> Both these reasons also help in earlier spring greenup and a decreased need for spring nitrogen application.
> 
> I dont think saving money was ever the point. Te point is how much N are you just loosing away (environmental responsibility) and you could achieve 90-95% of your result with maybe half or even less of the product you are currently applying.
Click to expand...

^+1


----------



## Dude

uts said:


> The 80% 28 day recovery is of the 20% that was taken. So if they applied 1lb in Oct, only 0.2lb was taken overall and 0.16lb (20%)was taken in 28 days. The November numbers are even worse. So the amount of N wasted is crazy. foliar is easier and more precise with those amounts.


😬


----------



## Harts

Stuofsci02 said:


> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions.


I think this point gets missed by so many, including myself at times.

What works for one may not work for another. The value to someone may not be of any value to another.

Doing a late season N app isn't going to kill your grass. So, try it. Monitor the results in the Spring and see for yourself if there is value. We can all give our thoughts and share research articles. but everyone has different conditions and expectations.


----------



## Stuofsci02

Harts said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this point gets missed by so many, including myself at times.
> 
> What works for one may not work for another. The value to someone may not be of any value to another.
> 
> Doing a late season N app isn't going to kill your grass. So, try it. Monitor the results in the Spring and see for yourself if there is value. We can all give our thoughts and share research articles. but everyone has different conditions and expectations.
Click to expand...

We should make it like formula 1.. everyone gets 3 lbs of N per k per season. Make of it what you can.. lol..


----------



## BigBlue

Stuofsci02 said:


> Harts said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> So I guess where the rubber hits the road for me is: I have always had success following my "old school" ideas when adjusted for actual conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this point gets missed by so many, including myself at times.
> 
> What works for one may not work for another. The value to someone may not be of any value to another.
> 
> Doing a late season N app isn't going to kill your grass. So, try it. Monitor the results in the Spring and see for yourself if there is value. We can all give our thoughts and share research articles. but everyone has different conditions and expectations.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> We should make it like formula 1.. everyone gets 3 lbs of N per k per season. Make of it what you can.. lol..
Click to expand...

Haha, but then what will the grid penalty be when someone puts down something new? We'll end up with a book of technical rules, a spending cap, and tricked out lawn mowers with rear wings that wobble too much when traveling in a straight line. ;-)


----------



## Obi Lawn Kenobi

Stuofsci02 said:


> Ah yes…. Environmentally responsible is important but….. There are countless articles with titles such as " Your Perfect Lawn Is Bad for the Environment. Here's What to Do Instead"…. The whole hobby is an affront to hippies, environmentalists and people who don't like yard work. My septic system (and theirs) don't leach any N though :roll: ..
> 
> In fact the guy who owns the green space behind me wants to build some houses back there, one of the main barriers stopping him is the Nutrient levels in the soil are too high for additional septic systems…. There are several small "sand point" style wells back there where they test the nutrient levels in the ground water….. I'd like to keep that area a green space so I might just have to step up my N game a little more :lol:


Amen Stu! When/where can I buy you a beer?


----------



## Stuofsci02

Obi Lawn Kenobi said:


> Stuofsci02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ah yes…. Environmentally responsible is important but….. There are countless articles with titles such as " Your Perfect Lawn Is Bad for the Environment. Here's What to Do Instead"…. The whole hobby is an affront to hippies, environmentalists and people who don't like yard work. My septic system (and theirs) don't leach any N though :roll: ..
> 
> In fact the guy who owns the green space behind me wants to build some houses back there, one of the main barriers stopping him is the Nutrient levels in the soil are too high for additional septic systems…. There are several small "sand point" style wells back there where they test the nutrient levels in the ground water….. I'd like to keep that area a green space so I might just have to step up my N game a little more :lol:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen Stu! When/where can I buy you a beer?
Click to expand...

Lol.. I guess I went a bit on a rant there.. I like me an IPA...


----------



## uts

Stuofsci02 said:


> Ah yes…. Environmentally responsible is important but….. There are countless articles with titles such as " Your Perfect Lawn Is Bad for the Environment. Here's What to Do Instead"…. The whole hobby is an affront to hippies, environmentalists and people who don't like yard work. My septic system (and theirs) don't leach any N though :roll: ..
> 
> In fact the guy who owns the green space behind me wants to build some houses back there, one of the main barriers stopping him is the Nutrient levels in the soil are too high for additional septic systems…. There are several small "sand point" style wells back there where they test the nutrient levels in the ground water….. I'd like to keep that area a green space so I might just have to step up my N game a little more :lol:


When we first got the house I read so may articles about the same. The funny thing is it always came down to 3 or 4 things. Water, fert, herbecides and carbon sink. I will preface the next part by saying that this is just my situation.

1. Water: there is research that water is not a big concern in the NE US. Primarily because of wet spring and fall and relatively smaller summers. If you go out West this is a huge concern due to much lower precipitation and low humidity throughout.

2. Fert and herbecide: I realized very early that once you have grass, if you keep watering the requirement for herbecide is fairly low. Also there is no need for aerating each year and overseeding as long as you can irrigate. You can also do pretty well with low dose fert -mine is guide by my soil test, unfortunately most lawn care companies do not, which is a problem. I understand their concern of it being waaayyyy to personal and expensive that way.

3. Carbon sink. Yes trees are better. No question. I have tried that I maintain as many mature trees as possible. What I got as a mature lawn I maintained. I have 2/3 of my property as trees.

Honestly I've tried being as decent as I can be, but yes I do take liberty with both water and fert/herb to a certain extent. Or maybe that's how I justify it in my head.. lol


----------



## g-man

Let's get this thread back on subject. The subject should be to focus your nitrogen to fall applications (August/Sept).

There is a choice that you can do more nitrogen even later in the season, but without much ET in the plant, that nitrogen is mostly wasted. It is a small waste of money, some waste in your time and some impact to what happens to that nitrogen. If you are used to doing the very late winterizer application, I suggest you use your yard as a field experiment one year and only do it to half the yard and see how it looks next year. That way you can have some objective evidence in your soil/grass type/conditions.


----------



## Obi Lawn Kenobi

uts said:


> That webinar is awesome. There was a difference in KBG and bentgrass. The KBG did show a difference.
> 
> No fall nitrogen resulted in earlier dormancy for the plant. This was beneficial if disease/fungus could not be controlled. Small apps resulted in excellent color response with no big difference with increase of N from 0.5-1.
> 
> The most relevant piece to the earlier discussion was this. The amount of N absorbed via the app as the season went ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> These were the recs.
> 
> 
> 
> They went on to say that oct apps should probably be only 0.25lbs and spoon feedings be 0.1lbs
> 
> Edit:
> @Dude those are from the same webinar. I have the same images saved. If you look the KBG does have root mass increase with N as well upto a point.
> 
> Edit2
> 
> I love how nerdy this conversation is


These numbers are for sand based surfaces. No?


----------



## uts

@Obi Lawn Kenobi yes, if I remember correctly the test was on madison USGA sand.


----------



## JERSEY

I have hit my lawn with greater than 4lb N since aug.15.
its significantly more green and thick than neighbors doing the scotts 4 step that ended a ways back.

In fact, those lawns are beginning to yellow after all the stress of 4 weeks of massive leaf clean ups--pine needles..etc.., mine is still dark green.

I am in sand. not much nutrient storage capacity. been a dry year in south jersey, so I think my results would have been even better. If we have more rain, I will drop another 0.5n I def see the differences in no/light/moderate/strong fert rates on turf here. strong gives best results.....less give yellowish turf sooner.


----------



## Obi Lawn Kenobi

I am experiencing this as well. I only have 2 lbs. N down so far for the fall and have not fertilized since Sep. 22(mostly due to being out of town on business). Even though I have a loamy soil and my storage capacity is higher, the lawn still looks a sickly yellow and has run out of gas. I will never do this again. This KBG can take up the N like there's no tomorrow.


----------



## tato

Excellent topic, so good information!

I'd like to know if I'm doing things right with the blitz and my lawn. I have a small lawn and I chose to use urea mixed with water and them spray it, otherwise it'd be difficult for me to spray 0,2 lb N/M which in my case is 0,017lb (125 gr) of urea.

What I do is mix the urea in a tank of 1,32 gallons of water (5 liters), then walk and spray in 2 passes. I don't know if there is too much water. After spray the urea I let it dry on the leaves.

My questions are:
it is necessary to water it in right after spray the urea?
If I'd go heavier with 2lb of N per month approach. Is it valid the spray way? Do I need to increase the water vol?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## g-man

> ALL references are to granular soil nitrogen. If you want to spray (it is a lot of extra work), you need to water in immediately for the rates discussed in this article.


----------



## tato

Missed that paragraph thanks @g-man.
Will try then to water in immediately starting today!


----------



## kylecopeland10

@g-man do you recommend the fall nitrogen blitz for TTTF? A majority on this thread are ***. Just curious if an overseed would be more beneficial for TTTF than the blitz. Thanks!


----------



## spaceman_spiff

kylecopeland10 said:


> @g-man do you recommend the fall nitrogen blitz for TTTF? A majority on this thread are KBG. Just curious if an overseed would be more beneficial for TTTF than the blitz. Thanks!


Let it rip, my dude. I have TTTF and KBG and it all goes bonkers with the nitro blitz.


----------



## simplesimon

spaceman_spiff said:


> kylecopeland10 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @g-man do you recommend the fall nitrogen blitz for TTTF? A majority on this thread are KBG. Just curious if an overseed would be more beneficial for TTTF than the blitz. Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Let it rip, my dude. I have TTTF and KBG and it all goes bonkers with the nitro blitz.
Click to expand...

@spaceman_spiff With TTTF, when would you choose overseed over blitz? How big of bare spots?


----------



## Rolling Hills

When you are N blitzing, are you supposed to rake out the dead grass patches that didn't recover from summer dormancy to enable the good grass to fill in better? Or do you leave those patches alone?

Apologies if this has been addressed already in this thread.


----------



## 1028mountain

You should repair those dead spots.

For me I have 90/10 TTTF/KBG and some dead spots where I sprayed Pylex to kill Bermuda along with my dogs pee spots. I didn't over seed but I put down pre-emergent back in August. I then raked, broke up the soil, seeded, added a little starter fertilizer and covered those spots with peat moss. I have also been hitting the lawn with .5lb/k of nitrogen every two weeks.

Established grass looks great and the bare spots are filling in nicely.


----------



## Rolling Hills

1028mountain said:


> You should repair those dead spots.
> 
> For me I have 90/10 TTTF/KBG and some dead spots where I sprayed Pylex to kill Bermuda along with my dogs pee spots. I didn't over seed but I put down pre-emergent back in August. I then raked, broke up the soil, seeded, added a little starter fertilizer and covered those spots with peat moss. I have also been hitting the lawn with .5lb/k of nitrogen every two weeks.
> 
> Established grass looks great and the bare spots are filling in nicely.


Don't think I have the time or bandwidth to do that before first frost. I decided this year to focus on overseeding the hardest hit section of the lawn because it was too much work doing all 18,000 sqft last year with a young family. Was hoping my N blitz could help fill in around which will reduce any spots that may need to repair in the spring.


----------



## Chris LI

Rolling Hills said:


> 1028mountain said:
> 
> 
> 
> You should repair those dead spots.
> 
> For me I have 90/10 TTTF/KBG and some dead spots where I sprayed Pylex to kill Bermuda along with my dogs pee spots. I didn't over seed but I put down pre-emergent back in August. I then raked, broke up the soil, seeded, added a little starter fertilizer and covered those spots with peat moss. I have also been hitting the lawn with .5lb/k of nitrogen every two weeks.
> 
> Established grass looks great and the bare spots are filling in nicely.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't think I have the time or bandwidth to do that before first frost. I decided this year to focus on overseeding the hardest hit section of the lawn because it was too much work doing all 18,000 sqft last year with a young family. Was hoping my N blitz could help fill in around which will reduce any spots that may need to repair in the spring.
Click to expand...

The N-blitz will definitely help it to fill in, since you have some kbg. Hitting the worst areas with seed like you did, is a good plan. If you are concerned about spotty coverage going into winter, you can toss a little extra seed down towards the end of January/ beginning of February, as a dormant seed. Frost heave will help it work itself into the soil. You can even toss it on top of the snow, if you had to do so. Any little bit might help.


----------



## turboo

Sorry complete noob here - what is the difference between spoon feeding vs blitzing? Per the guide "Lastly, this is not intended for a recently (3-4 weeks ago) seeded lawn since the grass is too young to be forced to grow with nitrogen. Let it grow a winter before doing this. During an overseed/reno use a spoon feeding approach."

Does it just have to do with amounts of N? 

Applied starter fert upon seeding (should waited for a few days after but did it at seed down ignorantly). But thats about 3 weeks ago now so looking at what I should do for the next couple weeks before first frost.

Thanks!


----------



## SNOWBOB11

turboo said:


> Sorry complete noob here - what is the difference between spoon feeding vs blitzing? Per the guide "Lastly, this is not intended for a recently (3-4 weeks ago) seeded lawn since the grass is too young to be forced to grow with nitrogen. Let it grow a winter before doing this. During an overseed/reno use a spoon feeding approach."
> 
> Does it just have to do with amounts of N?
> 
> Applied starter fert upon seeding (should waited for a few days after but did it at seed down ignorantly). But thats about 3 weeks ago now so looking at what I should do for the next couple weeks before first frost.
> 
> Thanks!


The blitz calls for 1/2 lb of nitrogen by-weekly. Spoon feeding would be more in line with .20-.25 lb weekly. The lower more frequent applications help the young seed thicken/tiller faster without as much risk for burning of the newer grass because your applying lower amounts on nitrogen per feeding.


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## turboo

SNOWBOB11 said:


> The blitz calls for 1/2 lb of nitrogen by-weekly. Spoon feeding would be more in line with .20-.25 lb weekly. The lower more frequent applications help the young seed thicken/tiller faster without as much risk for burning of the newer grass because your applying lower amounts on nitrogen per feeding.


Perfect thank you!


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## Rkolarich15

I’ve been spoon feeding new TTTF .25 Lbs N weekly and starting tonight the temp will get down to 30 and the daytime temps will be in the 60’s. Is it okay to continue spoon feeding the N even with the first frost here? Or should I wait until the night temps come back up some to resume. Next week night time temps get back up in the 50’s.


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## confused_boner

Rkolarich15 said:


> I’ve been spoon feeding new TTTF .25 Lbs N weekly and starting tonight the temp will get down to 30 and the daytime temps will be in the 60’s. Is it okay to continue spoon feeding the N even with the first frost here? Or should I wait until the night temps come back up some to resume. Next week night time temps get back up in the 50’s.


I would say wait until frost passes then start again. 

I would imagine it's not gonna be very effective when the grass is under frost stress but that's just a total guess.


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## Rkolarich15

confused_boner said:


> I would say wait until frost passes then start again.
> 
> I would imagine it's not gonna be very effective when the grass is under frost stress but that's just a total guess.


Thank you for your help! Will do.


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## dksmc

I'm taking a course at Guelph Turfgrass Institute and this week we discussed nitrogen fertilizing. One of the points was doing the "last step" as you called it. I was going to post about it but I'm glad that I checked here first. One point that was mentioned was to do it when the air temperatures are consistently below 10C (50F) and when growth has stopped as was mentioned. I'm going to try it this year and see what happens haha.


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## tommydearest

I've decided to not do the winterizing step. There's been information posted about how less nitrogen is utilized as temps get colder. If I'm still putting down .5N bi-weekly into mid-Oct, I'd have to think those last couple of feedings are already only utilizing 50% or less of that N. I think the info I've read shows closer to only 20% being utilized when the soil temps get around 50. I guess I'm thinking that we could be talking about at least 1/2 lb of N just sitting in the soil already. Seems like enough for before the spring flush.
I'd imagine soil type would change some of that. Anyway, that's my hypothesis.


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