# Clay Soil Advice



## Nashvillerookie (Aug 10, 2020)

Apologies at the outset for starting a new topic, but I can't seem to find the answer to my issue elsewhere. As I mentioned on another topic, and long story short, my wife and I bought a new-build near downtown Nashville. As with most new construction the yard was sodded with garbage fescue. I completely ripped apart the backyard and sodded it with Latitude 36 in late May. The Latitude 36 looked amazing for the first two months but has struggled lately(admittedly I screwed up by not scalping it a month or so ago and now it's mostly brown stock at 1.5 inches). Although prior to sodding I added about 5 inches of really good topsoil and tilled multiple times, our clay-based soil is doing what clay does -- compaction on the high ground and soggy against the fence line in the low area. Since it's too late in the year (presumably) to use my reel mower and take everything down for regrowth (the highest cut on my reel mower is .79 inches), my plan is to aerate and amend the soggy areas (and also fix some pooling areas where the soil settled unevenly). My question is whether I should use sand to dry these areas out, a 3/1 ratio of sand and compost, or just compost. I've read and seen different advice on this issue (i.e. that sand will make clay soil worse and others that say this is the best method for drainage). Any advice would be appreciated. I'm including a couple of pictures about two weeks after sodding and two months after sodding when it looked really good (the yard is basically crowned and drains toward the fence). Thanks again.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Sand definitely WILL NOT make clay worse, that's a myth. Aerate now while you've still got a little bit of heat left in the year. Aerate, remove the cores and backfill with sand. If the areas in question are small, you can get a foot operated manual aerator from Lowe's and go to town. They pull great cores.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Also, what has your fertilization schedule looked like?


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## Nashvillerookie (Aug 10, 2020)

Thanks so much for the reply. I've been using PGF complete about every three to four weeks (initial application when the sod was laid and two more after that) and supplemented twice with Super Juice with a small amount of fungicide since May (I don't know if Doc from the Bermuda lawn doctor website is just pumping products but thought I would give it a shot). I've been trying to be careful with the fertilizer because it's new sod. Maybe too careful.


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## Nashvillerookie (Aug 10, 2020)

I actually got a foot aerator the other day and the soil is so damp it doesn't actually "pull" the plugs. I pulled up some of the grass and the roots are just too saturated and shallow. Not sure why is looked great a month in with all the water required for new sod and then went to crap with a normal watering schedule.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

Check your super juice and phf complete at the door and save your money. Super juice is crap and pgf complete is WAY overpriced. Yes a good product just WAY WAY overpriced. "doc" is nothing but a pushy salesman.

Ok, that aside, bermuda is a nitrogen hog and lines about a pound/month/1k sq ft. Stay away from the organics and get something close to a 1-1-1 ratio fertilizer. It might be 10-10-10, 20-20-20, whatever. Feed it!


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

If you are mowing with a greensmower reel low, your N requirements drop down to 0.5 or less per month of N with an equivalent amount of P and K unless you have perfect soil that has more than adequate P and K.

Skip the organic stuff and anything you hear about on the internet. 1-1-1 is what the real turf managers use provided they have not been sold some overpriced magic in a bottle or bag. Doc is in a marketing agreement with Andersons. Turf managers that are under pressure to produce results without breaking the bank tend not to use a lot of Andersons products. I know I do not use any Andersons products.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

@Greendoc so you're saying to use humichar?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

TN Hawkeye said:


> @Greendoc so you're saying to use humichar?


Humichar, Biochar, and whatever comes in a pretty package and is endorsed by youtube stars. Only change will be in your bank account. Nothing short of replacement of clay with sand actually fixes clay. What can be done is to grow grass, create root cycling, and that will modify clay soils far better than any potion or magic granule that can be applied.


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Hey dude I'm in Smyrna Tn, I got a lot of advice for you. I have the same soil as you. If you would have posted this 3 weeks ago i could have helped you a lot with a top dresser. Send me a PM. It would be so much easier for you to call me then for me to write down what is needed for you to do.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Tellycoleman said:


> Hey dude I'm in Smyrna Tn, I got a lot of advice for you. I have the same soil as you. If you would have posted this 3 weeks ago i could have helped you a lot with a top dresser. Send me a PM. It would be so much easier for you to call me then for me to write down what is needed for you to do.


@Nashvillerookie just to warn you, @Tellycoleman is not actually a proctologist. We've had some problems in the past.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

He's not?!? Now I feel kind of embarrassed &#128542;


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

TN Hawkeye said:


> Tellycoleman said:
> 
> 
> > Hey dude I'm in Smyrna Tn, I got a lot of advice for you. I have the same soil as you. If you would have posted this 3 weeks ago i could have helped you a lot with a top dresser. Send me a PM. It would be so much easier for you to call me then for me to write down what is needed for you to do.
> ...


Lol lol lol


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Gilley11 said:


> He's not?!? Now I feel kind of embarrassed 😞


Yeah but did you cancel your follow up appointment?


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## Wfrobinette (Feb 3, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc so you're saying to use humichar?
> ...


I agree 100% with this.

I think there are a lot of magic potions out there that have zero scientific evidence backing up their use. Reminds me of supplement industry. Lots of claims with little evidence.

I flushed a lot of money into my lawn the last 2 years and here my anecdotal observations.

1. Humic DG Andersons- Don't know if it works or not. 
2. dried Kelp see #1
3. iron - seems to green a bit but applied with PGR so I don't really know. 
4. PGR - man does this work good and greens the yard too (no supplemental iron with PGR this year)
5. fert with bio char - greens the grass smells like chicken poo for days
6. fert without biochar from local supplier - greens the yard at 1/2 the price
7. celsius - does exactly what the label says never did an app this year as I had very little weed pressure. Will find a group buy next time. 
8. certainity - Does exactly what the label says. Only spot sprayed sedge. 
9. ryegrass over seed- grows really well and will not do TT annual again. too wet and a pain to mow. It added a whole bunch of organic material into the soil. Probably 20 33 gallon bags full of the stuff from the surface to about 5 inches deep. Will be doing PRG this year and kill it off before green up.
10 Revolver - smoked the annual that wouldn't die off before green up. will use again. 
11. Reel mower - Best cut there is.
12. Pre emergent - does what it says it will do.
13. Water - does what its supposed to do. 
14. Fungicides - do what they say they do.

Back to the basics of the Bermuda bible for me in 2021 and the PRG over seed for this fall.

1. Fertilizer, cheapest I can find
2. Certainty, Celsius, Pre Emergent, fungicides as needed. 
3. Mow
4. PGR
5. Continue adding organic material via winter over seed.


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## viva_oldtrafford (Apr 4, 2018)

Gilley11 said:


> Sand definitely WILL NOT make clay worse, that's a myth. Aerate now while you've still got a little bit of heat left in the year. Aerate, remove the cores and backfill with sand. If the areas in question are small, you can get a foot operated manual aerator from Lowe's and go to town. They pull great cores.


The extension offices from Illinois, Oregon, Michigan, Vermont, Utah, Washington, Missouri and Pennsylvania would disagree with the idea that sand into clay is a good idea - that it increases infiltration. But, hey, don't take my word for it (well, you'll have to for Penn.)

https://extension.illinois.edu/blogs/good-growing/2018-01-31-does-sand-improve-clay-soil-drainage

https://extension.oregonstate.edu/news/theres-no-break-people-who-garden-clay#:~:text=%22No%20amount%20of%20sand%20can,manage%20than%20the%20original%20clay.%22

https://pss.uvm.edu/ppp/articles/clay.html

https://forestry.usu.edu/news/utah-forest-facts/gardening-in-clay-soils

https://s3.wp.wsu.edu/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/soil-amendments-2.pdf

https://extension2.missouri.edu/g6955

Here are a few more sources....from ppl / agencies who actually have an idea as to what they're talking about.

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/farming-natural-resources-and-industry/agriculture-and-seafood/agricultural-land-and-environment/soil-nutrients/610000-2_soil_improvement_methods_for_the_home_garden.pdf

https://hgic.clemson.edu/factsheet/soil-conditioning-establishing-a-successful-gardening-foundation/

https://gardening.usask.ca/article-list-soils/misconception-adding-sand-to-clay-soils.php

You can take the advice of the soil scientists across the country when they say that sand into clay is not a good idea...or not...but hey, you do you.


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## Gilley11 (Nov 3, 2019)

I'm not going through those links you posted but I'll go out on a limb and give you the benefit of the doubt that they are discussing exactly what I mentioned above. If so, then I would disagree. I'm not going on what I've read on the internet or what the landscaping "pro" told me or what the guy at home depot selling petunias told me about how his second cousin's sister-in-law turned her gorgeous .125" mowed TTTF lawn into concrete by adding sand. I'm going on the experiences and advice that has been directly shared with me by turf professionals and how I've applied that and in turn becoming own personal experiences that I've had with my crap clay soil. I'm no expert by any means and I have no turf degree to display, but I do know what has worked for me and many others from several different areas around the country.

-I used to have standing water in my yard for days after a light-medium rain. Now after a hard rain, the water is gone within hours.
-I used to have a mostly bare yard full of areas that would not sustain grass. I now have an above average lawn that is 99% weed free and mostly filled in that the whole family enjoys.

So, you can be a card carrying gold star know it all on an internet forum all you want, I sincerely hope that doesn't extend into your real world life. But hey, you keep doing you.


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## Nashvillerookie (Aug 10, 2020)

Thanks everyone for the advice (I think ... haha) along with the side banter. I'll digest all of this and figure out my approach. I know for sure I'm done lining "doc's" wallet.


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## Darth_V8r (Jul 18, 2019)

One thing I didn't see mentioned is gypsum. If you're going to consider using sand , consider mixing in some gypsum too. It's a pretty good clay breaker and helps keep the clay from recompacting.

Something else I have found to be true in my own yard. The advice about starting the root cycle is very true, but sometimes hard to start. I had clay areas that seemed nothing would grow, and in this case, it seemed the best fix in retrospect was stolonizing zoysia into those areas. It seemed to do better than laying any sod over it, and then oddly enough, after the zoysia kind of "took", the rest of the grasses nearby that were previously not spreading to cover over those areas started creeping in.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc so you're saying to use humichar?
> ...


What is your opinion of humic acid in general?


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## dman (Nov 5, 2019)

MeanDean said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > TN Hawkeye said:
> ...


I have clay soil and bermuda. I have been using humic acid for a year now and would say it helps. Nothing can replace getting a soil test done to see what you may need.

These YouTubers are ALL selling or endorsing products. The videos are good for info but so is this forum. I have watched all of these folks on YouTube and do not place one any better than the other.

At the end of the day if someone wants a great lawn they need to get to know their soil makeup, grass type and what it needs.


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## Mister Bill (Apr 12, 2019)

viva_oldtrafford said:


> Gilley11 said:
> 
> 
> > Sand definitely WILL NOT make clay worse, that's a myth. Aerate now while you've still got a little bit of heat left in the year. Aerate, remove the cores and backfill with sand. If the areas in question are small, you can get a foot operated manual aerator from Lowe's and go to town. They pull great cores.
> ...


I am not going to waste time reading through the links, but the consensus is, layering different soil types like a Dagwood sandwich is not good, and with that I do agree. However. adding sand alone as a leveling agent has been the practice of every golf course on the planet and overseen by people with degrees in science I can't even spell correctly. Adding sand to clay and believing the end result will be concrete is a debunked myth and perpetuated by people with too much knowledge and no where to use it. The links you provided I am sure are accurate, my guess is they are being taken out of context. Don't overthink it, we are not growing corn.


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## Mister Bill (Apr 12, 2019)

OP, Bermuda makes organic matter, lot's of it. Doing nothing but normal maintenance will create a 6-8 inch layer of perfect topsoil in due time without ever adding any additives to amend the soil. You've been given good advice here, stay away from the snake oil and let Mother Nature do her thing. There are no shortcuts in life. Believing in magical beans and trading your cow for them will lead you down a road of disappointment. Keeping your lawn well fed, watered, burped, and healthy is all you really need to do. You will be amazed at how little your lawn really requires.

With all that said, if you have standing water or soggy areas, that is a grading issue, and no amount of sand will correct that. Others here will vehemently disagree, and with that, I'll agree to disagree, but I ain't wrong. :lol:


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## Mister Bill (Apr 12, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> TN Hawkeye said:
> 
> 
> > @Greendoc so you're saying to use humichar?
> ...


This should be a sticky.


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## Keepin It Reel (Feb 20, 2019)

I read a few articles online about the cement myth between sand and clay and while I do not remember which one it was the author simply stated you wouldn't want to till and blend the two but simply layering it to level a yard is perfectly fine with no issues whatsoever.


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