# Top dress new construction.



## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

When the process of building a home starts they always strip off the topsoil and send it off. My problem with this is they bring whatever somebody calls topsoil back for the final grade.

So my question is if I have a sandy loam soil should I ask them to bring in a sandy loam of like 80-90% sand and assume the other 10-20% has a decent OM?

I've got a massive specialty blending plant not far from the house and it services several golf courses so I'd assume they'd have something that would work. Here's a page with some options that they offer. http://www.plaistedcompanies.com/Products/GolfAthletic.aspx


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's a great resource to have close by. I would prefer a balanced approach of black dirt and compost. Sand doesnt hold nutrients or water. It is great for leveling, but I would prefer some clay into the mix. Talk to their specialist. He should know what do to in your area.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

I would second the recommendation that you speak to some soil specialists, theirs and also consult with someone from your state university agronomy program.
Some information that I've picked up over the years from my readings that may be relevant:

The soil placed over existing soil should not consist of finer soil particles as the fine particulates will wash down and plug the pore spaces in the lower soil. This can create a hard pan layer that impedes drainage and rooting.

Percent of OM should not be less than 3%. Common recommendations are 4-6%. Sufficient OM is important for good soil structure, adequate soil moisture retention, increased nutrient holding capacity, aeration and root growth. Peat moss is an excellent source of "non-active" OM, but include it judiciously. However, as always, more isn't better. Too much OM will created soil that holds excessive amounts of water and that are structurally weak.

This information may help you in conversing with the soil specialists:
http://lawr.ucdavis.edu/classes/SSC107/SSC107Syllabus/chapter1-00.pdf


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Awesome. Thank you for the advice. I could also take a sample and let the company do the test as they have the on site equipment.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

The company likely has test results on hand for %OM, texture (%clay, silt and sand) and pH of the components they use and the mixed products they create. At least for the "black soil" component they use. Ideally, pH should fall between 6 and 7, pH compatibility might also be a consideration.
...or were you meaning having them test the texture of your current soil?


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Correct. They should have tests for all the offered products. I'd bring them a core sample of what's existing to make sure it can match up. I'd rather not get too crazy with expensive soil but well see


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> I would second the recommendation that you speak to some soil specialists, theirs and also consult with someone from your state university agronomy program.
> Some information that I've picked up over the years from my readings that may be relevant:
> 
> The soil placed over existing soil should not consist of finer soil particles as the fine particulates will wash down and plug the pore spaces in the lower soil. This can create a hard pan layer that impedes drainage and rooting.
> ...


Thanks for this great info!
One question regarding soil particles: it makes a lot of sense that finer particles would find their way down to deeper layers and possibly plug things up. But what makes the particles create a barrier or a stopper, if you like, at one particular layer of the lower soil rather than being drawn further down, perhaps even in a random (I.e., non-uniform, non-layered) pattern? In other words, why would the sand collect at the same level in the lower soil?
I'm curious because I've thought about using a light layer of sand on top of my clay soil but haven't for the very reason you mention.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

> We can blend any combination of materials to meet your individual needs. For instance, create a topdressing sand with fertilizer or humates with a porous ceramic to increase CEC ratio.


Found this sentence on there website and dug into it a little bit, very interesting topic of porous ceramic.

http://profilelibrary.info/Files/Landscape%20Brochure_A003-41208.pdf

http://profilelibrary.info/Files/A000-25450_Const_Remodel%20Broch.pdf

Here's a good one too. https://news.brown.edu/articles/2017/06/nanofibers


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

social port said:


> One question regarding soil particles: it makes a lot of sense that finer particles would find their way down to deeper layers and possibly plug things up. But what makes the particles create a barrier or a stopper, if you like, at one particular layer of the lower soil rather than being drawn further down, perhaps even in a random (I.e., non-uniform, non-layered) pattern? In other words, why would the sand collect at the same level in the lower soil?
> I'm curious because I've thought about using a light layer of sand on top of my clay soil but haven't for the very reason you mention.


That's a good question and a critical observation on your part, social port.
I was sloppy in in the terminology used in an attempt to make my point and it was at the expense of accuracy. I should not have used the term "hard pan" in the sentence "This can create a hard pan layer that impedes drainage and rooting." At most, the sentences should have simply stated that "This can create problems that can interfere with drainage/infiltration"
BTW, to clarify, it is not sand (larger soil particles),but the finer particles of silt and clay that can plug the pores in a coarser soil. As part of my mea culpa, I should also say that turf specialists recommend that a coarser (sandy) soil shouldn't be topdressed over a finer (clay) soil either (it also adversly affects drainage/infiltration). When adding soil, the consensus is that the new soil should be as close to the texture of the existing soil as possible.
I'll see if I have anything in my stored links in support on the topic.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

This is all that I found in the library that is on point:
http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/hot_topics/2015/06topdressing_your_lawn.html
See paragraph 4 under "Good Practices."


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

What is the size (area) of your new lawn?


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

osuturfman said:


> What is the size (area) of your new lawn?


Very happy to see you here!

It's going to be about 15k of lawn total. main focus would be on the front at around 6-8k sq ft, the back I'm not as concerned about if budget becomes an issue.

End goal is kbg with around 1" hoc.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> social port said:
> 
> 
> > One question regarding soil particles: it makes a lot of sense that finer particles would find their way down to deeper layers and possibly plug things up. But what makes the particles create a barrier or a stopper, if you like, at one particular layer of the lower soil rather than being drawn further down, perhaps even in a random (I.e., non-uniform, non-layered) pattern? In other words, why would the sand collect at the same level in the lower soil?
> ...


Thank you for the clarification. I seem to recall the Lawn Care Nut making a similar point one time -- that one should always strive to match the native soil when adding soil--but I've noticed that not everyone adheres to this practice. It is interesting to hear about some of the reasons for the recommendation.


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## social port (Jun 19, 2017)

osuturfman said:


> What is the size (area) of your new lawn?


Wow! Big welcome to you!


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

Are you looking to do a capped rootzone where you are adding/grading 4-6" of material over a subgrade?

Or

Do you want to amend the topsoil the builder brings back before they finish grade?


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## coreyndstuff (Aug 14, 2017)

Is my math right here re: peat moss amount? For 3600sqft lawn, I need to get 36 cubic ft (60x60x1/8"), or for easy math, 30 cubic ft, ie 10 ~3cuft bricks of peat moss. That's about $125 where I'm at - is that sound right?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

coreyndstuff said:


> Is my math right here re: peat moss amount? For 3600sqft lawn, I need to get 36 cubic ft (60x60x1/8"), or for easy math, 30 cubic ft, ie 10 ~3cuft bricks of peat moss. That's about $125 where I'm at - is that sound right?


It depends, what are you trying to do? Also, remember that the 3cuft bricks are compressed peat moss.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

osuturfman said:


> Are you looking to do a capped rootzone where you are adding/grading 4-6" of material over a subgrade?
> 
> Or
> 
> Do you want to amend the topsoil the builder brings back before they finish grade?


I would rather add/grade 4-6in over the subgrade. It's not far from my current residence that has a sandy soil. It would resemble the two tests on the right side, one on the left was near a septic system.

It's been a long time dreaming of actually doing this, can't wait.


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## coreyndstuff (Aug 14, 2017)

g-man said:


> coreyndstuff said:
> 
> 
> > Is my math right here re: peat moss amount? For 3600sqft lawn, I need to get 36 cubic ft (60x60x1/8"), or for easy math, 30 cubic ft, ie 10 ~3cuft bricks of peat moss. That's about $125 where I'm at - is that sound right?
> ...


Sorry, overseeding.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

coreyndstuff said:


> g-man said:
> 
> 
> > coreyndstuff said:
> ...


That's not really the topic here.
You need to convert 1/8" to feet. 1/8"=1/96'. 60'X60'X1/96'=


g-man said:


> coreyndstuff said:
> 
> 
> > Is my math right here re: peat moss amount? For 3600sqft lawn, I need to get 36 cubic ft (60x60x1/8"), or for easy math, 30 cubic ft, ie 10 ~3cuft bricks of peat moss. That's about $125 where I'm at - is that sound right?
> ...


 :thumbup:


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

ABC123,
Could you clarify a couple of things. By sub-grade, do you mean that the contractor did not grade soil level with the sidewalks, driveway and top foundation water proofing.insulation, that the current level of sub-grade is currently 4-6" below that?

Any idea why the back and side soils are so different from the front? Have you dug down in the front to the subsoil to see if the texture is similar to the back and side? It's almost if the contractor just graded whatever native soil was there in the side and back and did a final grade with an imported soil in the front. Highly unusual in my experience for an imported soil to be that different in pH and CEC as it's usually sourced locally. Of course, I'm not familiar with MN.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

That was just an example of a soil test taken near by, not of the actual soil. I don't know why it's different, it's very noticeable with turf quality between the three.

When they make new houses here they scrape the land and haul it away. After construction is done they need to bring in atleast 4-6in of fill to finish grade the foundation and match the driveway.

I'd rather have decent soil or atleast a decent OM to start with.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Apparently I've lost my way.


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

ABC123 said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> > Are you looking to do a capped rootzone where you are adding/grading 4-6" of material over a subgrade?
> ...


A couple recommendations if this is the route you would like to go.

1.) For a rootzone material, I would recommend using a 60/20/20 mix. This is a standard mix of 60% sand, 20% screened topsoil and 20% peat moss, which in some areas of the country is replaced with biosolids or leaf litter compost. This is a mix that is widely used throughout the US for construction on golf courses and sports fields, specifically on golf course tees. The vendor you listed near your home makes this product as well.

This mix is so widely used because it is a great balance of a soil that has plenty of sand for good porosity, and enough soil and peat/compost to provide a good carbon source, which in turn initially provides good OM and CEC over a mix that is >80% sand. These characteristics, individually and collectively, are all important if you are planning to mow a cool season grass at or below an inch on a consistent basis.

2.) For calculating purposes, remember, 3.2 cubic yards of ANY material (stone, soil, concrete, etc.) will raise 1,000 square feet (1M) one inch in elevation. So if we know the bulk density (weight per unit of volume) of a product and can estimate it's compaction factor, we can come up with a very close estimate of the number of tons needed for your project. Using your front yard at a 6" depth and 8M in area as an example, see below.

8M (Area) X 6" (rootzone depth) X 3.2 cubic yards (constant to raise 1" in elevation) X 1.2 tons/cubic yard (bulk density of 60/20/20) X 1.1 (compaction factor of 10% elevation you will lose once the material is properly settled and compacted)= 184.32 tons

Here in Ohio 60/20/20 runs about $35/ton delivered. Which in your case would equate the following cost:

184 tons X $35/ton delivered = $6,440

Now that is Ohio pricing and the haul rates are what drives up the price. Being closer to the blending plant, you can hopefully be closer to $30/ton or slightly lower.

I realize that's a lot of money for just the rootzone material for a front yard however, you can change some variables as far as the area or the depth (4" minimum). If this is in your wheelhouse, let me know and I can lay out how the construction process would go or any other questions you might have.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

osuturfman said:


> ...estimate it's compaction factor...


osuturfman, 
How is that done?
Is there a chart for different soil mixes or for each individual component with a formula or calculator?
If so, is it available online?
Thanks.


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Awesome, thank you very much for the info. It would most likely be closer to the 4in vs 6in, I'll know more by spring as the house gets built. So I should have a good few months to get things perfect before seed down in the fall.

I don't think it's a lot considering sod is $7500 plus labor.


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## osuturfman (Aug 12, 2017)

Ridgerunner said:


> osuturfman said:
> 
> 
> > ...estimate it's compaction factor...
> ...


See this link for the engineering side of compaction factors.

http://engineeringtraining.tpub.com/14070/css/Table-10-1-Soil-Conversion-Factors-209.htm

In real terms, particle sizes of a soil or a mix are inversely proportional to the compaction 
factor. Think of it like this:

Take the big trash can you put out at the curb each week as an example of the volume of your rootzone. Fill it with basketballs and try to close the lid. You'll have a great deal of space between all the basketball and not much room to push the lid down once they are above the rim. Fill that same trash can with golf balls above the rim and you'll be able to push the lid hard to settle more balls down into the can.

Clay and loan soils require a higher compaction factor than sand or larger gravel.


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2017)

Much appreciated. Thank you


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## ABC123 (Jul 14, 2017)

Talked to them and I can only sod and use the dirt per hoa. This kinda sucks but I hope I can at least pick out a prg/kbg sod that can be mowed lower.


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