# Glyphosate tolerant St Augustine



## Symbiont01 (Nov 20, 2018)

Anybody heard of "ProVista" St Augustine? Its supposed to be glyphosate-tolerant, which means that issues like dallisgrass, torpedograss, etc. would no longer be an issue.

Thoughts? This sounds really game changing to me.


----------



## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Scotts is/was working on Provista - supposed to be gly tolerant. I don't know its present status.

The last time Scotts' did this with bentgrass, it didn't work out too well. It escaped and it's very hard to kill. There still a bunch of it in the Pacific Northwest and it's treated like some sort of environmental catastrophe hazardous waste when found.

I predict sooner or later these gene scientists will accidentally make something that out-competes pasture grass, is almost impossible to kill and isn't edible by livestock. Once it escapes and spreads everywhere, oops, no more meat or milk. At least the pastures will look nice like a lawn.


----------



## balistek (Jun 5, 2017)

I saw the mention on LCN video. Im interested. I definitely like the less mowings and ability to kill difficult grasses like Bermuda and above mentioned in the SA


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

This is kind of scary. I am staying away from GT cultivars of Tall Fescue, KBG, etc. There are already enough types of Poa Trivialis, Zoysia, and Bermuda in existence with glyphosate tolerance, that I don't want to intentionally plant something that's hard to kill!

The cool thing about ProVista, as I understand it, is the reduced growth rate and thinner blades. This seems to be a big area of development for both cool and warm season grass lately. That's a great thing. And St. Aug seems to be something that there hasn't been a ton of development in lately...everywhere you go, you see Floratam, basically, with its super wide blades and crispy texture.


----------



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> Scotts is/was working on Provista - supposed to be gly tolerant. I don't know its present status.
> 
> The last time Scotts' did this with bentgrass, it didn't work out too well. It escaped and it's very hard to kill. There still a bunch of it in the Pacific Northwest and it's treated like some sort of environmental catastrophe hazardous waste when found.
> 
> I predict sooner or later these gene scientists will accidentally make something that out-competes pasture grass, is almost impossible to kill and isn't edible by livestock. Once it escapes and spreads everywhere, oops, no more meat or milk. At least the pastures will look nice like a lawn.


I wonder if Tenacity still will kill the GT Bent.

As far as no more pastures, I hope not! I've read that the farmers still have a huge amount of endophyte-positive KY-31, and are trying to slowly convert over to non-endophyte types due to fescue toxicity! It's going to take decades. That's without GT Bent to even consider.


----------



## high leverage (Jun 11, 2017)

Symbiont01 said:


> which means that issues like dallisgrass, torpedograss, etc. would no longer be an issue.
> 
> Thoughts? This sounds really game changing to me.


Until dallisgrass and torpedo become resistant to glypho because of over use. These types of genetically engineered grassed and crops have bred herbicide resistant weeds. Sounds like a disaster in the works.


----------



## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > Scotts is/was working on Provista - supposed to be gly tolerant. I don't know its present status.
> ...


Tenacity and Pylex will kill GT Bent. So will Fusilade, Poast, and Envoy. Problem is, none of those are labeled and wise next to the irrigation ditches that the GT Bent infests.


----------



## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Greendoc said:


> Green said:
> 
> 
> > Delmarva Keith said:
> ...


Suit up for the diquat.  I hope that still works?


----------



## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Diquat by itself top kills Bent. In order to get a root kill. Diuron or Simazine are necessary additions. I know from all of the Glyphosate resistant weeds here in Hawaii. Diuron and Simazine are also highly restricted for applications near waterways. Not sure if Diuron is even allowed in the PNW any more. 
.


----------



## iFisch3224 (Jun 11, 2018)

Definitely interested, and would like to see others (if they pull the trigger) and/or LCN put a season or two into this before I decide to drop serious cash on it. Not like I need a ton, about 4-5 pallets I believe is all I need plus labor, this is not the best time/year for me to dedicate to the lawn as my father is seriously ill..

But..

I'll be watching and coming up with observations of my own.


----------



## LowCountryCharleston (Jun 21, 2018)

iFisch3224 said:


> Definitely interested, and would like to see others (if they pull the trigger) and/or LCN put a season or two into this before I decide to drop serious cash on it. Not like I need a ton, about 4-5 pallets I believe is all I need plus labor, this is not the best time/year for me to dedicate to the lawn as my father is seriously ill..
> 
> But..
> 
> ...


----------



## Symbiont01 (Nov 20, 2018)

high leverage said:


> Symbiont01 said:
> 
> 
> > which means that issues like dallisgrass, torpedograss, etc. would no longer be an issue.
> ...


Interesting thought. You are right that resistance is always a possibility, or more of a probability really, so I think you are on to something. I would think that it would take many years to develop, although there may already be resistant types of these weeds out there from the agricultural use of glyphosate in agriculture (with glyphosate resistant crops). I did a little research, and according to this article, resistance was already an issue 10 years ago with pigweed, ragweed, horseweed, milkweed and johnsongrass: http://www.agbioforum.org/v12n34/v12n34a10-duke.htm Here is another article from 2011 discussing glyphosate resistance in goosegrass: https://www.deltafarmpress.com/management/glyphosate-resistant-goosegrass-tennessee

Still, maybe you could combat a glyphosate resistant dallisgrass in ProVista by using an herbicide cocktail that mixes something that suppresses dallisgrass in St Aug. (like Celsius) with glyphosate and use multiple applications if needed. Thats all theoretical of course.


----------



## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

The general argument for avoiding resistant types is, to make sure it's dead, and to use chemical blends that involve multiple modes of action. Lastly, there's always the piece of changing environment when viable so as to not rely on chems to do the heavy lifting.


----------



## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

^+1. Yes, exactly. Make sure it's dead. Weed resistance goes along the lines of there are individual weeds that have some natural resistance scattered among all the other weeds. It just happens - random chance. The resistant weeds have to compete with all the other weeds and have no particular advantage to grow or reproduce. They're there but of no particular notice.

The farmer or landscaper, homeowner, etc., comes along and wipes out all the competition from susceptible weeds. The resistant weeds now get the chance to flourish and spread. The more naturally resistant they are, the more they flourish and reproduce. Over the years, this "creates" resistant weeds. What might have started as a few scattered weeds among many acres or miles of ground is now a problem and it naturally spreads everywhere the way weeds do.

The solution is to make sure targeted weeds never reproduce or spread. Do whatever it takes to accomplish this - multi modes of action, rotate modes of action, etc. Scouting the weeds to make sure is key.


----------



## BenC (Mar 27, 2018)

Of course everyone is right to be concerned with herbicide resistance. Plant breeding for herbicide tolerance helps us kill weeds more easily. Dead weeds don't reproduce, herbicide resistance in weeds doesn't happen, and we use less herbicides overall. The futile reapplication of the same MoA when it doesn't kill weeds makes herb. resist. happen in weeds. Plant breeding is a good thing. Irresponsible chemical applications are a bad thing. It'd be interesting to see a gmo literature review of all "out of control", hair on fire gmo incidents have occurred. Maybe more than I'm aware of.
@Greendoc - there's currently 24 diuron registrants on the market in Washington.


----------



## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...oalition.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1adX75N7Frq-0or8qC9IkOThis is the most likely reason why RoundUp Ready Bent has not been sprayed out with a combination of Diquat and Diuron or Paraquat and Diuron. Up until recently, there were no questions about the usage of Glyphosate near waterways.


----------



## BenC (Mar 27, 2018)

I won't read those 31 pages of legalese, what's the gist? I didn't see glyphosate on the list of 54 AI's that was referenced in the article. Aquatic labeled glyphosate is typically a higher concentration than terrestrial labeled glyphosate. Does that legal brief say that terrestrial labeled glyphosate is not allowed within a 20' buffer of water bodies, WOTUS, etc.? Something's not adding up. As usual, I don't understand.


----------



## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The reason why controlling RoundUp ready Bent is a problem is because alternative products are on the list of 54 restricted AIs.

Farmers and ranchers have access to Diuron, Simazine, Diquat, Paraquat, Clethodim, Sethoxydim, and Fluzafop to name some alternate products. Roundup ready Bent also grows right up to the water line because it loves water.

Personally, I would use a propane torch in places where herbicides are controversial. I do it now when dealing with weeds on hard surfaces upstream of storm drains.


----------



## Rackhouse Mayor (Sep 4, 2017)

I contacted Scotts requesting a quote, and they told me they're currently only selling to Florida. A little disappointed. I'm about an hour away from Florida.


----------



## iFisch3224 (Jun 11, 2018)

Rackhouse Mayor said:


> I contacted Scotts requesting a quote, and they told me they're currently only selling to Florida. A little disappointed. I'm about an hour away from Florida.


I got quoted $245/pallet - 400sq ft and $200 delivery and I'm about 1.5hrs away from the farm.

Is this what everyone else is getting quoted?


----------

