# Thought on Yukon



## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

I swear I posted this earlier in the morning but perhaps I neglected to hit submit after typing things out  If I did double post I apologize in advance!

I've pretty much recovered a TIF-419 lawn that was installed in 2003, suffered years of abuse at the hands of previous owners, and was a weed/crabgrass factory when we purchased in 2011.

I can now see some areas in the lawn that are slightly different in texture and color. I found a partial bag of Sahara seed in the garage when we purchased so I'm guessing that the previous owner had used it to try to fill things in while the home was on the market.

Now that I've got things more or less under control I'm considering an overseed with Yukon. From what I've read it is the most close in color and texture to 419 but, along with Riviera, suffers from being more sensitive to Quinclorac which is my goto for crabgrass and other weeds in my Bermuda lawns (Drive XLR8).

Anyway, I'll be doing a September Dithiopyr treatment for some remaining POA areas so I need to act soon. I'm roughly 60 days from my last treatment so the window is opening.

So here's my questions

How do folks like Yukon?

How do you think it matches with 419

I can water all I want, will a simple broadcast overseed be effective on a fairly dense lawn?

Any other tips?


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Why would you want to overseed Bermuda with other Bermuda? Bermuda will spread into any open spots if there is enough sunlight.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The 419 is going to not do well under the trees. TifTuff or Tifgrand? Even as plugs into an area. If money is an issue but you have patience, that is the other way to get it done. Right now, I am talking one of our cool season members through a no till renovation of a lawn from hell. @JohnP is converting a weed patch into a St Augustine lawn.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

As I said, there are spots of Sahara so I'd like to get a more uniform look. I done a lot of reading and this seems to be a very common practice once multiple types of Bermuda have taken in a yard.


Movingshrub said:


> Why would you want to overseed Bermuda with other Bermuda? Bermuda will spread into any open spots if there is enough sunlight.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

THX,

Ya, it's a bit thin there but I'm trying to solve the inconsistent look in the rest of the lawn.

I'll read up on TifTuff and Tifgrand. It's a lot less area than it looks that is "shade thin".


Greendoc said:


> The 419 is going to not do well under the trees. TifTuff or Tifgrand? Even as plugs into an area. If money is an issue but you have patience, that is the other way to get it done. Right now, I am talking one of our cool season members through a no till renovation of a lawn from hell. @JohnP is converting a weed patch into a St Augustine lawn.


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

I think the challenge is that each cultivar will have different growth habits and color. Plus they may each tolerate chemicals differently. May as well just make a blend of Bermuda and seed that if your plan is to embrace a multi-cultivar lawn.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

My experience with especially the Tifgrand is that it takes over eventually. The grass is hardy. If you want to favor it, just cut back on the fertilizer. 419 is one of those grasses that needs 1 lb of N every month. Tifgrand is a grass that I often skip feeding because it is still green. Can't do that to 419. Cut its fertilizer and it thins out, looking anemic.

Every Bermuda looks a little different, like what @Movingshrub said. What minimizes the differences is if you can mow low. Mowing high makes the faster growing varieties stand out in the lawn. Not necessarily in a good way.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

So how about some thoughts on Yukon????

PS - I mow 2-3 times per week (Retired). I'm mowing at about 2.25" right now. I have an irrigation well and water as much as I need/want. I fertilize frequently and adjust the rate accordingly. It's getting plenty of (N)!!!!!


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

Yukon is a premier cultivar but the color may not match. However, it sounds like that doesn't matter so, yeah get some Yukon, P77,and riveria and spread away.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

I doubt you will have enough germination to notice a difference. I would invest that money in a reel mower.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

x2. Get a greens mower.


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## Amaxwell5 (Jun 6, 2018)

I can tell you first hand that you will not get good germination. I tried this exact project a few months ago against some advice from others. It did not work. I got basically zero germination in the tif.


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## JohnP (Oct 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The 419 is going to not do well under the trees. TifTuff or Tifgrand? Even as plugs into an area. If money is an issue but you have patience, that is the other way to get it done. Right now, I am talking one of our cool season members through a no till renovation of a lawn from hell. @JohnP is converting a weed patch into a St Augustine lawn.


https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4113


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Ok I have Yukon Bermuda.
How do I like it? I love it. Very very fine texture bermuda with a darker color. Yukon really responds to iron and gets really dark. I dont think it is as aggressive in spreading as riviera. It will not grow worth a flip in the shade. It is designed for cold tolerance *not *shade tolerance.
You might as well throw away your quinclorac if you have Yukon. It is more than sensitive to it and will not tolerate it even in small doses.

Now as far as your question. Should I use it to overseed 419? Will it Match 419. 
long story short the answer is NO
Why?
1) Unless you have Yukon you should not overseed with Yukon. Overseeding a hybrid bermuda with a seeded form. even an advanced seeded form (like yukon) will give you undesirable results and waste your money. 
Yukon seed is expensive You are maintaining your height of cut at 2.5. This means very little sunlight reaches the ground. Which means you will have very little germination. At $300+ for a 50lb bucket its not worth the money to try and see what happens.
2) Undoubtedly Some seeds will germinate. but when it does the human eye can pick out so many shades. Even though yukon has almost the same leaf texture as 419 its color is subtly different. So standing from the street you wont see the difference but up close you will notice. Most people say that they dont care untill you start seeing patches of off color. It is darker than common bermuda.
There is a reason why this is a forum full of bermuda lovers and experts and NO ONE will do what you are proposing to do on your lawn. I love my yukon but if i had 419 sodded in my yard I would search and destroy everyblade of yukon I once loved.
I think i made this analogy once when someone asked me the exact question a couple months ago. Why put a blue Cadillac door on a red Mercedes Benz.

You are trying to treat the symptoms and not the disease so to speak. Like giving someone with a broken leg some morphine and sending them home pain free without a cast.

Bermuda doesnt have to be overseeded because it actually does just as good on its own spreading. If you have thin spots ask yourself why. What is the cause?
1) If the area doesnt have 6-8 hours of sun then that is the problem. You have alot of trees. Trees and Bermuda doesnt mix at all. You will never have a nice lawn under or around a tree LONG TERM. If you can NOT get rid of them then try and have someone come in and thin out and raise your canopy to allow more sun to hit the ground.
2) How do you fertilize your lawn how much do you fertilize and water the area that is thin? Usually fertilizer and water is all you need to make 419 spread like mad. I see that you said you fertilize. well how much? If your trying to grow in an area I put down alot more than a maintenance app
3) Have you ever stuck a screwdriver in the thin areas to see if there is alot of rocks or construction debri under the ground in thin areas? If so you need to try to dig it out and replace with sand and dirt (NOT COMPOST)
4) If these areas are the result of you killing off the crabgrass then you need to have patients and it will fill in.
5) To help speed up Bermuda spreeding in large bare areas you can get a Pro-Plugger and transplant grass from a good area into the bad area. This will actually give you faster results than seeding and will not stop your preemergence application in the fall. Youtube PRO_PLUGGER
6) Does the thin area have alot of water run off or is it really compacted? If so areation
7) 419 does better and grows thicker with a lower height of cut. Best below 1 inch. When you cut your grass high it uses most of its energy growing up instead of out. The only disadvantage to mowing low is that you have to mow often. Since you already mow alot it shouldnt be a problem

Now as far as your common Bermuda you already have in your lawn.
You can get rid of it but it requires that you lower your height of cut.
Alot lower. As @Greendoc and @Spammage a reel mower would alow you to cut very low. Common bermuda does not like to be cut below 1 inch. 419 does likes it Last year I had alot of common bermuda in my yard during my renovation. This year my height of cut is 0.5 inch. The common bermuda is thin looks stressed and my yukon has just moved on into the thin spots. I know most people say "my lawn is to bumpy" But often a reel mower will scalp the lawn less than a rotory.

I know I gave you alot of information but please consider not overseeding your lawn. in the long run you will be happier not having a lawn that looks like a spring mix salad


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## raldridge2315 (Jul 1, 2017)

X2 What @Tellycoleman said.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Thanks for your response, the last part is what I was really looking for. DON'T take the following explanation as dismissing any of the advice given here. I'm asking these question in many places and getting many conflicting responses. This is my first ever Bermuda lawn!

I'm probably going to move on to leveling and forget this "blended look" idea for now anyway. Hancock seed is selling 10# of Yukon for $125 with free shipping so it piqued my interest in seeing what I could do.

*Thinner ares of grass*

I thank folks for the input as I'll look into the recommendations of more shade tolerant Bermuda cultivars.

I wasn't really asking about the thinner areas because I've resigned myself that I'm stuck with the thin areas because of the sunlight issues. However they're better than they were as I've raised the canopy of the two large trees in the past 2 years letting in more light.

Those areas of the lawn are fortunate to be facing directly into the 2PM Texas summer sun so it still gets a fair amount. Believe it or not, one of the previous owners put down some St. Augustine that I've been walking back using Drive and letting the Bermuda win back a few feet at a time. I've pretty much got that taken care of but I know that in the end I'm a prisoner to sunlight!

*Multiple grasses and overseeding*

I get the different look part as this whole discussion began for me because I was looking for what could be done to "blend in" the Sahara that someone tossed into the lawn. Trust me, I get what you're saying about the germination too, ...

Obviously I get the fact that the different varieties look different so I wasn't proposing adding a 3rd cultivar lightly. I spent time in multiple of these forums and, believe it or not, that was the recommendation to "even out the look". Now they didn't say use Yukon but they did say to try an overseed. I read up on Princess 77, Riviera, and Yukon and multiple sources say Yukon would "match" 419 better than the others. Yes, I get it was developed to help cold hardiness but everything I've read says it performs equally well as any Bermuda in the heat. I'll try mow height as suggested.

*Now on to mow height...*.

Believe it or not, you get all kinds of "advice" in some pretty stern/cold and sometimes salty language about mowing height and Bermuda in various blogs. There's another site of "lawn care professionals" that openly mock customers who ask to have their Bermuda lawns mowed below 2" in Texas and the south. It's really shameful to mock folks in my opinion but people are people...... My guess is they don't want to put their ZTR decks below 2" to keep away from damage but when I asked that question I was sternly addressed 

My mower's minimum specified height is 1.5" and I recently (Memorial Day) moved up from the lowest height to where I'm at now. I've always increased height in the heat of summer so maybe next year I shouldn't do that.

I know I said I'm at 2.25" but it was really about 2 1/8 and that was measured with the blade towards the chute. As you know, the blades are canted forward 1/8-1/2 inch per specification. I usually try to keep the cant at about 1/4". Next time I level the deck I'll drop it another 1/4-1/2 inch on the hangers (I'm on the first step up from 0 and the adjustment is in 1/2" increments). That should return me to as close to the 1.5" spec as I'm going to get.

Anyway, when I do mow at the lowest setting I have to slow down to keep from scalping many areas. Leveling the lawn was the next project on my list. Perhaps it's time to address it.

*Getting a reel mower*

I grew up using a powered reel mower on the main lawn and a push reel mower on the side strips and tree lawns. Only the cool kids had the "whirlybird mowers" as we called them in the 60's.

The area of Bermuda I'm addressing and shown in my pictures is about 25K square feet so in the Texas heat and at my age a reel mower just isn't going to happen. I've cut it and the rest of my lawn before with my 22" self propelled when I was awaiting delivery of my original JD LA105 rider. It wasn't fun and that was 7 years ago..... I had a different number in the beginning of my age!

Plus there's all the rest of the property up towards the road and in the back of the house which is St Augustine that needs to be mowed, edged, and trimmed. I have 1/4 mile of street, walkway, and drive to edge and another 1/3 mile of house, fence, and planter areas to trim. I've got a walk behind edger and a string trimmer I use. Those are pretty close approximations based on the County tax website which has measuring and area tools for the properties!!!!

*Your Questions*

I fertilize the Bermuda every 3 weeks with 2 bags, 84 lbs, of 29-0-4. That's a gnat's hair shy of 1 lb/1K if I did my math correctly. I start the season with 3 bags. I've recently located some 21-0-0 so I may pick some up. I buy a LOT of fertilizer. Picked up a pallet of the 42 lbs bags on closeout at $5/bag last fall.

I water to 4-6 inches in the soil. I've got an irrigation well so no restrictions and minimal cost.

I have a tow behind "star spike" aerator that I use in the spring before my pre-emergent. I haven't rented a core aerator for this lawn which is sandy loam with some areas more clay than others, mostly near the house where I'm sure the builder disturbed the native soil more than the rest of the lawn.

About 4-5 years ago I took a ground strike that wiped out all my solenoids in the field but one. I had no map and even with a locator there I had to dig a number of "test holes" to form the outline of the system and find all the valve boxes. The ground is pretty consistent across the yard. I didn't find any debris to speak of. I know this one as I dug out a 4x8 sheet of plywood in my first house I built  Grass kept dying in a rectangle!!!

Did I miss anything?

*CONCLUSION*

_I REALLY appreciate the information everyone has provided and look forward to more information._

Please continue to help with my plan. This is the first season I've actually had only spots of weeds and crabgrass to deal with. My last lawn in TX was beautiful weed free St. Augustine and up north I always had post card KBG lawns but they were in the 1/2 acre sizes and I was a lot younger.

Like I said, I've still got some POA issues but I hope to finish most of that off this September. I made the mistake of thinking I had it licked and skipped last Septembers pre-emergent 

I personally think it would be a mistake to try to lower the height of cut at this time of the year but open to all well formed opinions!!!

*Honestly, if I were building this house today, it would all be St. Augustine* 

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL!



Tellycoleman said:


> Ok I have Yukon Bermuda.
> How do I like it? I love it. Very very fine texture bermuda with a darker color. Yukon really responds to iron and gets really dark. I dont think it is as aggressive in spreading as riviera. It will not grow worth a flip in the shade. It is designed for cold tolerance *not *shade tolerance.
> You might as well throw away your quinclorac if you have Yukon. It is more than sensitive to it and will not tolerate it even in small doses.
> 
> ...


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Yes to the St Augustine. That would be perfect for your lawn. but a little expensive for 25,000 sq ft


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

So what about everything else I provided like fertilizer rates, aeration, adjusting mowing heights at this point in the season, ...

Was hoping to get some more insight!


Tellycoleman said:


> Yes to the St Augustine. That would be perfect for your lawn. but a little expensive for 25,000 sq ft


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## Bmossin (May 31, 2018)

I've played with mixing blends... my lawn is no where near the expanse of yours...and yours looks beautiful by the way.

Anyway we have talked and my lawn is a mix of celebration, blackjack, yukon, P77 and riviera. I can tell you the celebration is doing well, and that was sodded. I have been mowing less than an inch and the other various cultivars are finally beginning to fill in since I have also been fertilizing about 2lb N per 1000 for the past two months. I can not tell you which cultivar is doing best, aside from the Celebration, or even which one is which anymore.

I will say though while it is nice to see things filling in and this is the best it has looked in a long time, I'm not happy with it. I wish I never would have done my original renovation when we first moved here and I tried to apply cool season techniques to warm season turf and I really didn't know any better. If I had known then what I know now I would likely be in the leveling and maintaining stage, and have a sweet greens mower in the garage as opposed to where I'm at currently.

In the future there will be another renovation now that I know better when the funds get there and the kids quit costing so much lol.

Since I am right up the road from you and if you want, I would offer up some Celsius for you to add to your herbicide regiment...or if you want to give it a try. I have done one app...and it mixed well with Dismiss. I am a fan. Applied it two weeks ago. It nuked whatever rye I still had hanging on, took care of other broadleaf I had. Dismiss got the nutsedge and a patch of kalinga in the front.

Also if you want to borrow the core aerator I have sometime you are welcome to that, I will say though, the thing is an *** kicker...and I'm in my 30's and am afraid I would possibly die if I tried to aerate this month or next.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

Well I dropped the blades to 1 5/8 and was shaking as I took my first pass!

No, I didn't do it all at once. Since I fertilized last week and watered accordingly, the 3 day growth was enough to cut first at my original height. Even at that I had to do some clean up passes with the deck fully raised to disperse clippings. Then I lowered the deck a notch, 1/2 inch, and slowly began to mow in 1/2 lap stripes. Again, had to follow with some dispersing runs with the deck raised. I followed with a final cut and a good soaking. Last pic is the final.

Fingers crossed for a rapid green up.

I also adjusted the deck so 0 will be at 1.125" even though the spec says 1.5". Thus mow took me down to the 1 position.


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## Smokindog (Jun 20, 2018)

OK, we got a good soak yesterday afternoon plus I made a minor adjustment to my deck. I grabbed a wrong measure and was 1/8" off on one side. I use pre-cut/measured pieces of 2" PVC pipe for my height. Regardless there was still a noticeable amount of grass to cut so I gave it all another cut. I even had to cut twice with the deck raised to disperse clippings again! Good thing I keep plenty of gas on hand  The spot in the lower right on the second picture is a fire ant mound I treated and now settling in. You'll probably also see some rear wheel pivot marks I left since everything is a bit soft.

Yes, I start at 7AM when it's going to be hot. That's when the lawn firms begin around here


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## Tellycoleman (May 10, 2017)

Not to bad with scalp marks. You are on the way to a reel mower within a year. Lol


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