# Spraying a patch or two of clover in July...tips on penetrant?



## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

I have two small patches of clover I need to spot spray in the upper back. I'm going to use Triclopyr. Normally I use a NIS with that. I understand that it should ideally be below 80 degrees or so when I spray with Triclopyr.

I have a couple of questions...

@thegrassfactor mentioned in a video recently that wild violets and creeping charlie harden off this time of year, which is why they're tough to kill...the herbicide doesn't get through well. Does a similar thing happen with clover? If so, should I still use the NIS, or should I use methylated seed oil (not even sure if MSO is ok to add to Triclopyr, as I've never done it).

Also, I'm a fan of spraying in the evening as opposed to morning. Is there any advantage of evening versus morning sprays in this case?


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

0.5% by volume MSO plus a pinch of Ammonium Sulfate?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Ok, Evening sprayings are fine. I think the reason why I do not torch more lawns than I do is that I spray last thing in the afternoon and the irrigation system comes on next morning. If a lawn is on rain only, I would be super careful. Triclopyr starts to work at 2 teaspoons of the 4 lb ester. NIS is where I would go with the surfactant and AS is good as well. What you want is to completely cover without soaking or exceeding the amount per acre equivalent. For spot spraying that is 1-2 teaspoon in a gallon. Weeds become very hard to kill when the spray applications volume is only 32-48 oz of spray per 1000 sq ft indeed. With good coverage and some surfactant, hard to kill become an easy target. 32-48 oz is widely scattered drops on a 1000 sq ft area.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

I agree with @Greendoc on NIS in triclopyr for clover. I've tested COC and NIS. The NIS is more effective.

Haven't tried adding ammonium sulfate. With the NIS, haven't needed to. I guess I'll try that next round.

Have not seen any hardening off of clover but if it's droughty then systemic herbicides won't work as well. If you're not irrigated, spray the day after a decent rain.

My spot spray rate is 5 gal per 1,000 (seems like a lot but I can usually spot spray about an acre of what breaks through with just a gallon) using a TP4002E nozzle. I've got some TP4001E nozzles on order to get the gallonage down to something more reasonable but they haven't come in yet.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I've done the tryclopyr, AS and NIS in spot spraying. It smokes the clover in no time, but it could cause some tip damage to the surrounding lawn. Hence why I dont recommend it too. It needs a very light coating.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Greendoc, without doing a weight-volume calculation, how does the 4lb ester you mentioned stack up to the 9% Triclopyr I have as far as concentrations go?

I've never added the ammonium sulfate before, but the point is to help get the triclopyr translocated during a time when the clover isn't pulling as much from the soil due to the heat, correct? I sometimes didn't have good results without it...but my water volume could have been an issue too.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

@Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I agree with @Greendoc on NIS in triclopyr for clover. I've tested COC and NIS. The NIS is more effective.
> 
> Haven't tried adding ammonium sulfate. With the NIS, haven't needed to. I guess I'll try that next round.
> 
> ...


5 gallons per 1000 sq ft is a more honest volume for spot spraying from a hand sprayer. Friend of mine did a little experiment spraying a gravel area with water from a manual sprayer. He got 4 +gallons. Not the 32 oz per 1000 sq ft people who I will not mention claim one can do.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> 5 gallons per 1000 sq ft is a more honest volume for spot spraying from a hand sprayer. Friend of mine did a little experiment spraying a gravel area with water from a manual sprayer. He got 4 +gallons. Not the 32 oz per 1000 sq ft people who I will not mention claim one can do.


Wow...5 gallons to get a good response. I've always used about a gallon per thousand. Sometimes less. So, that might have been the main issue.

I guess I should mix at 1/5 the normal concentration, and spot spray for 5x as long as I normally do. Only issue with that is it's going to run off the clover and possibly damage the grass. I suppose I could hit it 5 times with the sprayer, letting it dry in between each time.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> @Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.


Just saw this. Shoot. You're right...it's an amine. Why would they do that? Just so you can get away with spraying in a slightly higher temperature?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Lets roll back. 1/5 concentration, use a surfactant and spray to cover but not run off. My point is that trying to spot spray by mixing what is used to cover 1000 sq ft in a gallon is risking a 4-5 x overdose. Cool season grasses are fairly tolerant of this if the overdose is with broadleaf herbicide. Do this to warm season grasses with the exception of Zoysia and it risks substantial injury.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Green said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > @Green You using the Ortho Clover and Chickweed Killer? I would mix that at half the label rate and add the AS and surfactant. That is Triclopyr amine. It definitely needs the additives. Amines by nature are very reluctant to enter plant tissues and are subject to interference by impurities in the water.
> ...


Because Esters in the hands of people who do not understand the interaction between weather conditions and vaporization is risky. You do not want to spray an Ester on a hot, humid, still day. That Ester will turn into a vapor and fumigate every tree, shrub or flower nearby.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Because Esters in the hands of people who do not understand the interaction between weather conditions and vaporization is risky. You do not want to spray an Ester on a hot, humid, still day. That Ester will turn into a vapor and fumigate every tree, shrub or flower nearby.


That makes sense from what I learned in organic chemistry.

Ok, for the amine formula I have, what ratio range of ammonium sulfate should I use? I have a cheap electronic scale that can measure mass in fractions of grams or fractions of ounces.

Also, do you feel that anyone serious about lawncare should also have the ester formulation for use in cooler weather and learn all the guidelines for its use, or is it just as good to keep buying only the amine and use the ammonium sulfate and nonionic surfactant with it? I ask because I always had trouble killing creeping Charlie in the Fall with the amine, even with 3 sprays 10-14 days apart. Never got a full kill. Even repeating for 3 or more years straight. (Of course, I suppose that could have also been a spray volume issue, as we already discussed).


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Lets roll back. 1/5 concentration, use a surfactant and spray to cover but not run off. My point is that trying to spot spray by mixing what is used to cover 1000 sq ft in a gallon is risking a 4-5 x overdose. Cool season grasses are fairly tolerant of this if the overdose is with broadleaf herbicide. Do this to warm season grasses with the exception of Zoysia and it risks substantial injury.


Ok, it's all starting to make sense now. I knew I had to be doing something wrong (not optimal) all this time. Now I know what it is. I'm not sure where I got the idea from that I could use a gallon over 1,000 square feet. It's been so long, but it was definitely bad advice, wherever I picked it up from.

Most formally untrained people (without formal spray training or an advanced chemistry degree) probably don't think of it as an overdose, as long as they're using the correct amount of herbicide for the area, and covering it until the plants in the area are wet, and without running out of water.

But the way you've just illustrated it, it IS in fact an overdose if the spray volume is low, because what's hitting the plant is more concentrated than it should be, even though it's the right amount of chemical. Sort of like not drinking enough water, but taking the right amount of an antibiotic.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

To spike the Clover and Chickweed killer you want up to 60 grams per gallon of the AS. That plus some surfactant is as good as it gets.

However, you keep on reading me say put away the Dismiss at this time of the year. I also do not want to see Ester herbicides from now until fall also. I actually use a lot of Ester herbicides here in Hawaii. But I am using them during the time of the year when it is mostly cloudy, under 80, and a bit breezy. At that time, the risk of permeating areas with vaporized herbicide are low. Not enough heat and humidity for the herbicide to vaporize. Enough air movement for the vapors to be dispersed and diluted. I get on broadleaf weeds from November up until April or May here. I have non volatile alternatives that actually work better in hot weather vs cool weather anyway, but my objective is to not be spraying for weeds in hot weather anyway. It might be worth it for you to get a little Triclopyr ester for fall use. That is when it can be safely used to kill hard to control broadleaf weeds.

I am going to use that analogy next time I am explaining water volume to someone. Had to take an Aleve last week for a headache. Box said drink a full glass of water with the pill. You know, a lot of this low volume crap is from the commercial lawn people. They are mostly going after easy to kill broadleaf weeds with high rates of Three Way. One drop on the leaf of a Dandelion with a spray consisting of 1 oz pro strength Three way in a quart of water will kill the Dandelion. It is that susceptible. These same guys then go on the forums talking about nightmare weeds such as Spurge. Small waxy leaves. That is when something like Triclopyr applied to cover but not as an overdose to the area works.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Greendoc

Thanks for helping me discover what I'd been doing wrong all this time!

And I'm glad to have given you an analogy to use to help explain it in the future.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The TLDR version of what I am explaining is to figure the right amount for the area actually being covered. Then apply it in a volume of water with any necessary surfactants and modifiers such that the weeds are evenly coated without runoff.

I can make 1 gallon or even 1/2 gallon cover weeds evenly in a spot spray scenario, but that is not with an off the shelf sprayer. I am using Teejet fan nozzles that are smaller in volume than my normal boom spraying nozzles and the pressure is controlled.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The TLDR version of what I am explaining is to figure the right amount for the area actually being covered. Then apply it in a volume of water with any necessary surfactants and modifiers such that the weeds are evenly coated without runoff.
> 
> I can make 1 gallon or even 1/2 gallon cover weeds evenly in a spot spray scenario, but that is not with an off the shelf sprayer. I am using Teejet fan nozzles that are smaller in volume than my normal boom spraying nozzles and the pressure is controlled.


Ok. Good to know.

For reference, I'm currently using the default Chapin red flat fan nozzle attached to their 3-gallon handheld pro sprayer, and 4-gallon 20V backpack (which I've only had a short time), but will be looking into other options in the near future. I'm also looking into ways to reduce the pressure on the backpack sprayer safely, and posted a thread on that topic a few weeks ago. It got some good replies; I need to sift through everything, as well as contact Chapin to ask some questions.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Red nozzles are the 04 sized orifices. At 40 psi and a fast walk that is a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I want to slow it down, that calls for yellow 02 nozzles to stay at a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I do not want to have to change the orifices, I plan on putting down 2 gallons per 1000 sq ft moving slowly.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Red nozzles are the 04 sized orifices. At 40 psi and a fast walk that is a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I want to slow it down, that calls for yellow 02 nozzles to stay at a gallon per 1000 sq ft. If I do not want to have to change the orifices, I plan on putting down 2 gallons per 1000 sq ft moving slowly.


Assuming you mean the Tee-jet, not my red Chapin nozzle.

Speaking of which...maybe that's the real reason I've been doing a gallon and a quarter of water per thousand square feet all this time...because I found that it ran out in the correct time with an average walking speed. Makes sense. But something still isn't right...must be the droplet size, since that's the only other variable. (Ok, there are other variables, too, like how I'm holding the wand, but I doubt those are the issues).


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

1.25 gallons per 1000 sq ft is what I get from 04 nozzles on my rig walking slowly. So, I mix a 7 gallon engine drive backpack to cover 5000 sq ft and nail it pretty close. If I wanted to walk slower, the nozzles would have to change to the dark blue 03 ones. I would also have to increase the spraying pressure.

One more thing to consider is that if a nozzle is too misty, you will be using more volume per area but losing a lot of spray to drift. So my nozzles are typically the AI110 series nozzles. Those are air inducted low drift nozzles that do a good job of placing product on the turf with minimal drift. The regular fan nozzles often create a fine mist that does not land on the ground.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> One more thing to consider is that if a nozzle is too misty, you will be using more volume per area but losing a lot of spray to drift. So my nozzles are typically the AI110 series nozzles. Those are air inducted low drift nozzles that do a good job of placing product on the turf with minimal drift. The regular fan nozzles often create a fine mist that does not land on the ground.


I have that problem with the 20v backpack sprayer. That was the basis of  this thread and why I'm learning about my options to correct it.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Saw that. I can tell you that the air inducted fans are a possible solution. I used to use the non air inducted fan nozzles. The drift was horrible. As soon as air inducted fan nozzles were a thing back in the late 1990s, that is what I fitted my sprayers with.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Just to clarify what I was getting at with 5 gal per 1,000 spot spray rate - using plain water, calibrate exactly how much liquid you actually spray wirh a given nozzle to cover a measured area in the exact same manner as you would spot spray weeds (and be honest with yourself while doing it).

Measure to the 1/2 or 1/4 ounce what's left in the can after spraying a measured area - you will be multiplying any measurement errors so don't gloss over the measurements.

Everybody is going to be different and what nozzle and distance from nozzle to weed also makes a big difference. I use a very narrow angle nozzle so I zap what I want zapped without having to have the nozzle right up close to the weed drenching it. I don't want anyone thinking that the water volume I happen to apply is something to shoot for or that's what's needed to be effective. Just happens to be where I'm at. I actually think it's too much and am trying to get it down by at least half.

But anyway, the important thing is knowing I spray 5 gal per 1,000 to spot spray as it now stands, if an herbicide calls for, say, a one ounce per 1,000 rate, I know I need to mix 1/5th that amount, i.e. 6 ml, per gallon in my hand can for spot spraying to end up at 1 oz per 1,000.

Calibrate yourself and your tools so you know where you are at. Much less turf damage that way


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks. I'm looking forward to trying stuff out and finding the solution that works best for me.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

@Delmarva Keith, I will do my best to only cover the areas I need to, and to do in the same manner I would if blanket spraying. But you're right...that is easier said than done.

The only thing I'm having trouble understanding, is whether my nozzle, which works well with 1.25 gal at a normal walking speed, works best with 5 gallons, 1 gallon, or something in between. I'm starting to wonder if there's a mismatch between the optimal walking speed the nozzle works with, and the way it discharges the liquid onto the plant. Like, that maybe it's just not a good nozzle as far as how it's engineered (back to the whole dilution thing @Greendoc and I were talking about before).

When I do calibration tests on my driveway, what am I looking for in terms of the type of coverage I'm aiming for? I always assumed you wanted "just barely uniformly wet", i.e. not seeing a droplet pattern.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Not seeing a droplet pattern on pavement is spotty coverage. What I look for when doing a driveway test is evenly wet and evenly drying back out. Spotty means not enough volume or else the spray is drifting and not even landing.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Guys...

The other thing here, is if we're aiming for 5 gallons per thousand as a rule of thumb for general herbicide use, that's a lot of water, and it can take a lot of time to refill, spray, etc. 5 times as much work.

I'd rather switch to a nozzle that will let me use the 1-1.5 gallons per thousand square feet in a uniform manner!


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Not seeing a droplet pattern on pavement is spotty coverage. What I look for when doing a driveway test is evenly wet and evenly drying back out. Spotty means not enough volume or else the spray is drifting and not even landing.


I never thought about the dry-out time being part of the calibration variables! I did notice it, and it wasn't drying out totally uniformly. But I never thought that was pertinent information until now. Everything is starting to come together in my mind now...


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

The other way I can control the volume applied is by controlling the pressure. That regulator you see before the trigger enables me to control the pressure in 1 PSI increments.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith, I will do my best to only cover the areas I need to, and to do in the same manner I would if blanket spraying. But you're right...that is easier said than done.
> 
> The only thing I'm having trouble understanding, is whether my nozzle, which works well with 1.25 gal at a normal walking speed, works best with 5 gallons, 1 gallon, or something in between. I'm starting to wonder if there's a mismatch between the optimal walking speed the nozzle works with, and the way it discharges the liquid onto the plant. Like, that maybe it's just not a good nozzle as far as how it's engineered (back to the whole dilution thing @Greendoc and I were talking about before).
> 
> When I do calibration tests on my driveway, what am I looking for in terms of the type of coverage I'm aiming for? I always assumed you wanted "just barely uniformly wet", i.e. not seeing a droplet pattern.


Maybe you're overthinking it or maybe you're on to something. They make a type of paper you can spray that shows coverage by changing color wherever hit by water. Very handy to evaluate blanket spray coverage.

Maybe you can do something similar for spot spraying with an ordinay sheet of white paper and pretend it's a target weed. Spray the paper for even coverage. Then when you spray the measured test area, use the same technique as used on the paper.

I don't use the same technique at all when spot spraying versus blanket spraying. When spot spraying, I'm walking at a relatively slow pace scouting for weeds. As I find them I stop and spray them. It's not like walking along as if you were blanket spraying and spray on / spray off. That's more appropriate when there are still lots of weeds. Spot spraying is just that - just the few remaining weeds and those that crop up between rounds of spot spraying.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Guys...
> 
> The other thing here, is if we're aiming for 5 gallons per thousand as a rule of thumb for general herbicide use, that's a lot of water, and it can take a lot of time to refill, spray, etc. 5 times as much work.
> 
> I'd rather switch to a nozzle that will let me use the 1-1.5 gallons per thousand square feet in a uniform manner!


5 gal per k is not a rule of thumb. It's just what I happen to end up at the way I spot spray. Do it however you do it with the nozzle you use and measure what you do.

If I use more than a gallon in my hand can spot spraying an acre of turf, it's a lot.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> I don't use the same technique at all when spot spraying versus blanket spraying. When spot spraying, I'm walking at a relatively slow pace scouting for weeds. As I find them I stop and spray them. It's not like walking along as if you were blanket spraying and spray on / spray off. That's more appropriate when there are still lots of weeds. Spot spraying is just that - just the few remaining weeds and those that crop up between rounds of spot spraying.


Agreed. But you still try to mimic the same amount of liquid as if you were blanket spraying. That can be challenging to get right.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Delmarva Keith said:


> 5 gal per k is not a rule of thumb. It's just what I happen to end up at the way I spot spray. Do it however you do it with the nozzle you use and measure what you do.


It was also the number of gallons that Triclopyr recommends using, as mentioned by Greendoc.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> The other way I can control the volume applied is by controlling the pressure. That regulator you see before the trigger enables me to control the pressure in 1 PSI increments.


What do you use that pistol grip style sprayer trigger on the left for? Those have been in the back of my head all this past week...


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Spot treatments, directed applications under shrubs and for lawns too small or weirdly shaped to spray with the boom.


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## Delmarva Keith (May 12, 2018)

Green said:


> Delmarva Keith said:
> 
> 
> > I don't use the same technique at all when spot spraying versus blanket spraying. When spot spraying, I'm walking at a relatively slow pace scouting for weeds. As I find them I stop and spray them. It's not like walking along as if you were blanket spraying and spray on / spray off. That's more appropriate when there are still lots of weeds. Spot spraying is just that - just the few remaining weeds and those that crop up between rounds of spot spraying.
> ...


No, I blanket spray at 1 gallon per K using a pair of wide angle TT11004 nozzles. Totally different animal.


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## Green (Dec 24, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> Spot treatments, directed applications under shrubs and for lawns too small or weirdly shaped to spray with the boom.


And what's that style called? It reminds me of what some people use to wash cars...same basic design, no?


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

No. this gun shuts off immediately after the nozzle tip. The valve mechanism behind the tip rather than in the handle. Chapin sells this. It is a lower cost copy of the Teejet 30-76-76-24 spray gun. When I am applying a mix of Diquat and Ronstar in a flower bed I do not want that dripping on someone's 1/2" Zoysia lawn.


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