# Fall pre emergent advice please



## Mikeyp_1284

This spring was my first time putting down pre emergent. Just put down prodiamine and probably a little late as I had some crabgrass break through. I had terrible henbit and poa issues last year. Is there anything else that I should also be using in combination with the prodiamine for fall or spring. I'm in eastern NC. Bermuda lawn. Thanks.


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## FATC1TY

I'm sure you'll find plenty of suggestions but with what you listed as the tough ones, I'd highly suggest Specticle Flo.

It will absolutely keep away all the poa, do an extremely good job with the henbit and crabgrass, and supposedly has some post emergent effects on it.

I can attest to how well it works, I don't think I'll use anything else unless I somehow get some resistance going on in a few years.


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## Amoo316

My plan going into Fall is leaning heavily towards Simazine atm.


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## Amoo316

@FATC1TY where are you getting Spectile Flo now that it's not on DMO anymore? I have a large enough yard I am leaning towards looking into pre-packaged granuals for Spring but I need to research more on the MOA.


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## FATC1TY

Amoo316 said:


> @FATC1TY where are you getting Spectile Flo now that it's not on DMO anymore? I have a large enough yard I am leaning towards looking into pre-packaged granuals for Spring but I need to research more on the MOA.


I have quite a bit of it after splitting with some family. I only have around 6k to treat so I won't need any for a while.

Not sure why DMO isn't carrying some of their stuff anymore.


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## Amoo316

FATC1TY said:


> I have quite a bit of it after splitting with some family. I only have around 6k to treat so I won't need any for a while.
> 
> Not sure why DMO isn't carrying some of their stuff anymore.


Seemed to be a lot of Bayer stuff. Dunno if there is something more there or not. Thanks for the info though.


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## Movingshrub

Amoo316 said:


> My plan going into Fall is leaning heavily towards Simazine atm.


That won't last long enough.


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## jayhawk

Second the specticle flo. You could also find a pro in the area who uses it ...(that's not trugreen, weedman, ....Mr mow n blo)


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## Amoo316

Movingshrub said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My plan going into Fall is leaning heavily towards Simazine atm.
> 
> 
> 
> That won't last long enough.
Click to expand...

? 3-6 months based on what you're targeting and your specific soil isn't long enough?


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## Mikeyp_1284

FATC1TY said:


> I'm sure you'll find plenty of suggestions but with what you listed as the tough ones, I'd highly suggest Specticle Flo.
> 
> It will absolutely keep away all the poa, do an extremely good job with the henbit and crabgrass, and supposedly has some post emergent effects on it.
> 
> I can attest to how well it works, I don't think I'll use anything else unless I somehow get some resistance going on in a few years.


Thanks for the advice. I see some available for about $275 for 18 oz. About how much do you use each app per acre?


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## Bombers

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you'll find plenty of suggestions but with what you listed as the tough ones, I'd highly suggest Specticle Flo.
> 
> It will absolutely keep away all the poa, do an extremely good job with the henbit and crabgrass, and supposedly has some post emergent effects on it.
> 
> I can attest to how well it works, I don't think I'll use anything else unless I somehow get some resistance going on in a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I see some available for about $275 for 18 oz. About how much do you use each app per acre?
Click to expand...

That will last you 2 app for your acreage, I would get Esplanade 200 SC. Same AI but higher concentration, less $$$ per app.


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## Guest

+1 specticle FLO excellent for poa


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## BermudaBoy

Amoo316 said:


> My plan going into Fall is leaning heavily towards Simazine atm.


I've got everything under control with the exception of a few broadleaf weeds that crept through. I'm a novice at pre-m uses. Is Simazine a good one to throw in the rotation for broadleaf weeds?


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## Amoo316

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> Thanks for the advice. I see some available for about $275 for 18 oz. About how much do you use each app per acre?


If you go the 8x.625WDG route you can apply all 8 for 5oz/acre or 4 for 2.5oz/acre.

https://www.domyown.com/specticle-20-wsp-preemergent-herbicide-p-1939.html


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## Amoo316

BermudaBoy said:


> I've got everything under control with the exception of a few broadleaf weeds that crept through. I'm a novice at pre-m uses. Is Simazine a good one to throw in the rotation for broadleaf weeds?


For broadleafs I feel it is if it has the ones you're targeting. I spray everything with a kicker (2 MOAs), PreM is no exception. Simazine will most likely be 1 in my tank.

I'll be doing split apps on October 1 and November 1 assuming greencast 5 and 10 year averages hold for 2021.


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## Movingshrub

Amoo316 said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> My plan going into Fall is leaning heavily towards Simazine atm.
> 
> 
> 
> That won't last long enough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> ? 3-6 months based on what you're targeting and your specific soil isn't long enough?
Click to expand...

I thought it was 3 to 6 months of broadleaf control. I don't know if it's effective as a pre em for grassy weeds for that span of time. For some reason in my mind I'm thinking closer to 45-60 days.


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## Amoo316

Movingshrub said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> That won't last long enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ? 3-6 months based on what you're targeting and your specific soil isn't long enough?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I thought it was 3 to 6 months of broadleaf control. I don't know if it's effective as a pre em for grassy weeds for that span of time. For some reason in my mind I'm thinking closer to 45-60 days.
Click to expand...

The labels gives a specific higher rate when targeting POA, so based on the label, reapplication intervals and seeding instructions on the label everything points to 3-6 months.

It's one I would use in the fall, but not one I would use in the spring as it doesn't seem as effective against spring/summer weeds as other options.

(Here's a link to the UGA extention website which kind of echos that for preemergence. https://extension.uga.edu/publications/detail.html?number=B978&title=Weed%20Control%20in%20Home%20Lawns )


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## Mikeyp_1284

Bombers said:


> Mikeyp_1284 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure you'll find plenty of suggestions but with what you listed as the tough ones, I'd highly suggest Specticle Flo.
> 
> It will absolutely keep away all the poa, do an extremely good job with the henbit and crabgrass, and supposedly has some post emergent effects on it.
> 
> I can attest to how well it works, I don't think I'll use anything else unless I somehow get some resistance going on in a few years.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the advice. I see some available for about $275 for 18 oz. About how much do you use each app per acre?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That will last you 2 app for your acreage, I would get Esplanade 200 SC. Same AI but higher concentration, less $$$ per app.
Click to expand...

What's the difference between the 200 SC and the EZ? Besides about $3700 per 2.5 gal.


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## Amoo316

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> What's the difference between the 200 SC and the EZ? Besides about $3700 per 2.5 gal.


EZ -









200SC -









EZ kills all the things because of added Glyphosate. Think like spraying along a fence where you want to kill things and keep things from coming back.


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## Mikeyp_1284

Amoo316 said:


> Mikeyp_1284 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What's the difference between the 200 SC and the EZ? Besides about $3700 per 2.5 gal.
> 
> 
> 
> EZ -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 200SC -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> EZ kills all the things because of added Glyphosate. Think like spraying along a fence where you want to kill things and keep things from coming back.
Click to expand...

I gotcha. So you spray just Simazine in the fall or a combination of things. The spectical flo is kinda pricey for a couple apps. I'm kinda torn.


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## cldrunner

@Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :

https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm

I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.

Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.

*Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.

$170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!


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## FATC1TY

Yeah for that price Esplanade would be my choice. Much smaller dosing, works best for large areas too.

Yes it's expensive, but keep in mind your time and money for post emergents later in the season. I don't have time or desire to mix up a tank of stuff monthly to do post emergent weeds.

Using Specticle for two years now I think and I'm ready to just sell my celcius, revolver, and dismiss because I rarely if ever find a reason to mix up any amount to spray.


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## Mikeyp_1284

cldrunner said:


> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!


Thanks for the info. Think I'll just bite the bullet and see what all the fuss is about!


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## Mikeyp_1284

FATC1TY said:


> Yeah for that price Esplanade would be my choice. Much smaller dosing, works best for large areas too.
> 
> Yes it's expensive, but keep in mind your time and money for post emergents later in the season. I don't have time or desire to mix up a tank of stuff monthly to do post emergent weeds.
> 
> Using Specticle for two years now I think and I'm ready to just sell my celcius, revolver, and dismiss because I rarely if ever find a reason to mix up any amount to spray.


Thanks for the advice. I think I'll give it a try.


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## Amoo316

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> I gotcha. So you spray just Simazine in the fall or a combination of things. The spectical flo is kinda pricey for a couple apps. I'm kinda torn.


Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. There were a TON of people that gave excellent advice in this thread, so I want to make sure none of that gets overlooked.

When I read the OP it stated "'I'm already spraying Prodiamine, but what could I add". I looked at that and said, "Hmm, Simazine offers broad spectrum control, which has a different MOA then Prodiamine, I might suggest that as an additive."

I also stated that I do not spray anything by itself and I spray multiple MOAs at one time

Break for a service announcement: MOA = Method of Action, different chemicals work differently to inhibit growth. Because I have so much land, it's more cost effective for me to spray 2+ different MOAs 1 time (or a split app) then to spray 1 thing and spot treat.

If you want to spray 1 thing, I 100% feel Specticle Flo is the best solo spray solution for that specific problem. In fact Specticle Flo is probably the best Pre-M on the market period for MOST things. I'm also a HUGE believer in rotating MOAs, example, say I choose to spray Simazine and X this fall. In spring, I will spray 1/2 things with different MOAs then what I sprayed in the fall.

Let's say I chose Dithiopyr as my "kicker" with Simazine for this fall. I would be willing to spray Dithiopyr again next spring, but I would choose a different "kicker" to go with it.

My point is, I wouldn't spray the same thing more then 2 times in a row and I wouldn't rely on any less than 2 MOAs. If you have 5K or 7K square feet, spot treatment may be a viable option. With 2+ acres, for me it is not, hence I try to spray 1 time (twice for split app) and spot treat as little as possible afterwards. If I have to spot treat, I failed (unless I knew I was leaving an opening) and need to re-evaluate.

It's simply a different way of looking at things. You can't cover everything with 1 product. I have so much land I can't afford to be spot treating things I "missed" with my applications. As a result, I try to cover as much as possible each and every app.

I'm sorry for the long winded explanation, but I really felt that needed to be cleared up. I wouldn't spray just SImazine in the fall and feel I was, "good for everything". I would look at the label, see what Simazine controls, look at the weeds in my yard and decide if it is more cost effective for me to treat them Pre/Post. Simazine is a GREAT tool in the FALL IMO. It is not the only thing I would spray in fall ever. I hope that makes sense.

(At the end of the day, if I was VERY limited in what I could have, I would probably go Specticle + Prodiamine in the spring and Specticle plus Simazine in the fall. Limit me more and I could take Prodiamine in the Spring and Simazien in the fall and know I was going to br treating certain things with a post.)


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## Bombers

cldrunner said:


> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!


You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.

Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.


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## Mikeyp_1284

Bombers said:


> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!
> 
> 
> 
> You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.
> 
> Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot. Ordered some last night. So you think 2 oz. apps per acre 3-4 times a year is sufficient?


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## Mikeyp_1284

cldrunner said:


> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!


Thanks for the links. Ordered some last night.


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## Bombers

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> Bombers said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cldrunner said:
> 
> 
> 
> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!
> 
> 
> 
> You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.
> 
> Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks a lot. Ordered some last night. So you think 2 oz. apps per acre 3-4 times a year is sufficient?
Click to expand...

That sounds like a plan, man!

@cldrunner , do you apply early September/~60 days later and Feb/60days for those 4 split apps?


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## cldrunner

@Bombers Yes. I am DFW area. I try for September 1-7 and 60 days later and March 1-7 and 60 days later. I apply max rate Esplanade 2.5 oz per acre, max rate prodiamine .83 oz per acre, and .75 oz Simazine per 1000 because I have hybrid bermuda (Tiff 419).


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## cldrunner

> Thanks a lot. Ordered some last night. So you think 2 oz. apps per acre 3-4 times a year is sufficient?


@Mikeyp_1284 I think that a first app of 2.5 oz is your best bet then you can reduce it down to 2 oz if you are making 4 apps and still have great results. You will be very happy with your decision to buy and using a 3 mode of action approch to preventing weeds. Are you spraying with a large tank sprayer?

_*From the label*:Resistance Management Guidelines
Continual use of herbicides with a single mode of action encourages the development of resistant weeds. Esplanade 200 SC is a Group 29 Herbicide that contains the active ingredient indaziflam. Esplanade 200 SC may be used in programs with other preemergence her- bicides with different modes of action. *No known resistance to Esplanade 200 SC exists*, and there are no known instances of cross-re- sistance between this product and other classes of herbicides, or modes of action. Performance of this product is not affected by the presence of biotypes resistant to glyphosate, triazines, ALS-inhibiting, growth regulant, or other herbicide modes of action. When resist- ance of a specific weed is confirmed, rotation of Esplanade 200 SC in one season followed by a preemergent herbicide with another mode of action in the subsequent season, for example, will reduce existing populations and minimize further development of resistant weeds. _


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## Mikeyp_1284

cldrunner said:


> Thanks a lot. Ordered some last night. So you think 2 oz. apps per acre 3-4 times a year is sufficient?
> 
> 
> 
> @Mikeyp_1284 I think that a first app of 2.5 oz is your best bet then you can reduce it down to 2 oz if you are making 4 apps and still have great results. You will be very happy with your decision to buy and using a 3 mode of action approch to preventing weeds. Are you spraying with a large tank sprayer?
> 
> _*From the label*:Resistance Management Guidelines
> Continual use of herbicides with a single mode of action encourages the development of resistant weeds. Esplanade 200 SC is a Group 29 Herbicide that contains the active ingredient indaziflam. Esplanade 200 SC may be used in programs with other preemergence her- bicides with different modes of action. *No known resistance to Esplanade 200 SC exists*, and there are no known instances of cross-re- sistance between this product and other classes of herbicides, or modes of action. Performance of this product is not affected by the presence of biotypes resistant to glyphosate, triazines, ALS-inhibiting, growth regulant, or other herbicide modes of action. When resist- ance of a specific weed is confirmed, rotation of Esplanade 200 SC in one season followed by a preemergent herbicide with another mode of action in the subsequent season, for example, will reduce existing populations and minimize further development of resistant weeds. _
Click to expand...

Sounds good! Thanks. And yes I'm running a 25 gal tow behind sprayer.


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## Mewwwda

cldrunner said:


> @Bombers Yes. I am DFW area. I try for September 1-7 and 60 days later and March 1-7 and 60 days later. I apply max rate Esplanade 2.5 oz per acre, max rate prodiamine .83 oz per acre, and .75 oz Simazine per 1000 because I have hybrid bermuda (Tiff 419).


@cldrunner do you mind explaining your method a little further?

Are you spraying at 1/4 rates each time you spray, is this why you spray 60 days after the initial spray or 1/2 rates and just rotating your 3 pre-em's?

Are you going to split your Esplanade as well or spray full rate in September?

Asking because I will be spraying almost the exact same as you. I have Prodiamine and Simazine already and getting Specticle soon. Just trying to get it dialed in ahead of go time.


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## jayhawk

Ronstar is a different MOA of barricade

....just to trigger


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## cldrunner

@Mewwwda Yes. I am using a 1/4 rate for each application. At this time I see no need to rotate if I am using all three for each application.

In my opinion this three mode of action approach is highly cost effective for large lawns and amazingly effective for weed control.

Personally, I use 4 apps because it helps effectiveness during the tail end of the Spring and Fall apps. In addition, I treat some non irrigated sections that I have to apply before rain so if I get too much rain or not enough rain it gives me a second chance.


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## DeepC

@cldrunner Thank you for this information


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## mrmattyq

cldrunner said:


> @Bombers Yes. I am DFW area. I try for September 1-7 and 60 days later and March 1-7 and 60 days later. I apply max rate Esplanade 2.5 oz per acre, max rate prodiamine .83 oz per acre, and .75 oz Simazine per 1000 because I have hybrid bermuda (Tiff 419).


Sorry to Hijack this thread, but im looking into alternating isoxaben with Speticle / esplanade this year. I see the max label rate for Esplanade is 10oz per acre (and contains 19.05% Indaziflam - not labeled for residential) compared to Specticles same app rate at just 7.2% AI (and labeled for residential)

my probably incorrect quick maths:

Specticle | .622 AI per pound @ 10oz per year = .38875 lb's AI per year
Esplanade | 1.67 AI per pound @ 10oz per year = 1.04 lb AI per year

So roughly, Specticle's yearly dose is 38% percent of dose of Esplanade each year.. Further if we were to make Esplanade more in line with Specticle, we would only want to apply about 4oz per acre per calendar year.

With that being said, im all about pumping down pre-em at the max capacity allowed - just want to know if there are any i'll effects noticed from doing so with Esplanade on tiff 419 (also have some tiftuff in shadier areas).

Esplanade certainly makes more sense to go with given higher concentrate + Amount - cutting down the rate to match specticle will make it last even longer


----------



## Jagermeister

cldrunner said:


> @Mikeyp_1284 with a 1 acre yard I would also highly recommend along with @Bombers indaziflam aka Specticle Flo or Esplanade :
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=4634d9850&_ss=r
> https://www.seedranch.com/Princep-Herbicide-p/princep-2-5gal.htm
> https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm
> 
> I use it along with prodiamine and Simazine and have a virtually weed free lawn. It is good stuff. Is is expensive? $373 for 32 oz. You can treat a bermuda lawn with 10 oz per year for an acre at max rate. So basically you are spending $124.33 per year if used year round for three years. I am applying 2.5oz per acre 4 times per year. Add in Prodiamine at the max rate of .83 oz per acre which is about $27 per year. Add in Simazine(Princep) at 3 quarts per acre per year which is about $23 per acre for a year.
> 
> Your total cost to buy all three about $510 but could easily be used for 3 years for an acre of bermuda at max rates. That would cost $170 per year for a *3 mode of action* approach which would keep your acre lawn nearly weed free.
> 
> *Disclaimer*: Esplanade is the same active ingredient as Specticle Flo. However, it is not "labeled" for residential use.
> 
> $170 a year for an acre in my opinion is very inexpensive for having a weed free lawn. Does it make sense for small lawns....Not really unless shared. Does it make sense for large lawns....Absolutely!!


@cldrunner I have been researching pre-ems and rotating for resistance management including the video that The Grass Factor has on it. Because Esplanade is so powerful and there are very few known weeds that are resistant to it at this point, isn't it overkill to put down prodiamine and simazine along with it?

My plan was to rotate to a different MoA annually. So this year I plan to split my apps in Fall and Spring. Prodiamine in September followed by a second app in late October plus Simazine and probably Negate to get any baby Poa. Do same app in February. Split app in ~April of Prodiamine plus Pennant Magnum to help with goosegrass (I had a large goose outbreak this year) and sedges (actually didn't have many sedges). Possibly include a blanket of dismiss and quinclorac to get any baby crab or goose. Then rotate in the fall to Esplanade (split app) and nothing else. I am assuming I would have limited breakthrough because of Esplanade. Possibly add Simazine in late October...maybe Ethofumesate or SureGuard for more MoAs (avoid ALS) in December when Bermuda is dormant... this is what Matt was recommending.

Appreciate your thoughts on this.


----------



## Amoo316

Jagermeister said:


> @cldrunner I have been researching pre-ems and rotating for resistance management including the video that The Grass Factor has on it. Because Esplanade is so powerful and there are very few known weeds that are resistant to it at this point, isn't it overkill to put down prodiamine and simazine along with it?


Part of the way to keep it to where there are no known resistances is to hit the weeds with multiple MOAs. This kind of helps ensure you don't get a breakthrough.


----------



## Jagermeister

Amoo316 said:


> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> @cldrunner I have been researching pre-ems and rotating for resistance management including the video that The Grass Factor has on it. Because Esplanade is so powerful and there are very few known weeds that are resistant to it at this point, isn't it overkill to put down prodiamine and simazine along with it?
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the way to keep it to where there are no known resistances is to hit the weeds with multiple MOAs. This kind of helps ensure you don't get a breakthrough.
Click to expand...

One way is to hit it with multiple MoAs at once and the other way is to rotate MoAs season to season or year to year. Does anyone know which approach is better or are they equally sound strategies?


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

Jagermeister said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jagermeister said:
> 
> 
> 
> @cldrunner I have been researching pre-ems and rotating for resistance management including the video that The Grass Factor has on it. Because Esplanade is so powerful and there are very few known weeds that are resistant to it at this point, isn't it overkill to put down prodiamine and simazine along with it?
> 
> 
> 
> Part of the way to keep it to where there are no known resistances is to hit the weeds with multiple MOAs. This kind of helps ensure you don't get a breakthrough.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> One way is to hit it with multiple MoAs at once and the other way is to rotate MoAs season to season or year to year. Does anyone know which approach is better or are they equally sound strategies?
Click to expand...

I was wondering this as well. I was planning on hitting 3 at once but would like to hear what others recommend.


----------



## Amoo316

Jagermeister said:


> One way is to hit it with multiple MoAs at once and the other way is to rotate MoAs season to season or year to year. Does anyone know which approach is better or are they equally sound strategies?


If you rotate MOAs you have less chance of developing resistance period. If you use 3 MOAs and have a breakthrough/resistance that shows up, now you've killed the ability to use those three on that weed. That said breakthrough is less likely because you are using multiple MOAs.

It's kind of a chicken vs egg argument. Most breakthroughs or resistances end up happening in most drugs/medicines/herbicides due to mutation or misuse. You can't control mutation, you can control misuse.


----------



## cldrunner

@Jagermeister @Amoo316 
@Mikeyp_1284 
I am looking for a simple and cost effective strategy. For me rotating multiple chemicals adds additional cost and complexity. I like a lot of people on this board started with a Prodiamine only approach and it had alot of breakthrough. I added Simazine and took it to a higher level. When I added Indaziflam and four applications a year the results have been amazing and better than almost all the professionally treated yards around me.

Yes, as my weed control is at a high level I might reduce my max rates or even not buy exactly when I run out which forces a rotation. If I run into resistance issues 5-10 years from now I am willing to take that risk for simple and *cost effective* and still have a nice lawn. I can tell you that I have used almost no post chemicals(certainty and Celsius) this year .

It may not be the perfect approach but it works for me at a fraction of the cost of a professional service. Everyone has to make their personal choice based on area treated, goals, cost, resistance, weather, irrigation, soil type, grass type, chemical type and size, and the list goes on. I do not consider a 3 MOA approach overkill. I look at it as I am attacking a seed or weed three different ways.


----------



## Amoo316

cldrunner said:


> @Jagermeister @Amoo316
> @Mikeyp_1284
> I am looking for a simple and cost effective strategy. For me rotating multiple chemicals adds additional cost and complexity. I like a lot of people on this board started with a Prodiamine only approach and it had alot of breakthrough. I added Simazine and took it to a higher level. When I added Indaziflam and four applications a year the results have been amazing and better than almost all the professionally treated yards around me.
> 
> Yes, as my weed control is at a high level I might reduce my max rates or even not buy exactly when I run out which forces a rotation. If I run into resistance issues 5-10 years from now I am willing to take that risk for simple and *cost effective* and still have a nice lawn. I can tell you that I have used almost no post chemicals(certainty and Celsius) this year .
> 
> It may not be the perfect approach but it works for me at a fraction of the cost of a professional service. Everyone has to make their personal choice based on area treated, goals, cost, resistance, weather, irrigation, soil type, grass type, chemical type and size, and the list goes on. I do not consider a 3 MOA approach overkill. I look at it as I am attacking a seed or weed three different ways.


For clarity I 100% agree with this approach.


----------



## Jbird95

@cldrunner Esplanade 200SC looks solid and I think I'll try it. Question- looks like rate is .11oz/K. How does someone measure that amount? Convert to ML and use an eye dropper? Also, curious about the carrier volume per K. Thank you


----------



## jayhawk

It is. If youre mowing with a bush hog, maybe u have more weed pressure in Bermuda but like fatcity mentioned...it just works

@Jbird95 use a syringe ....converting to cubic centimeters (cc)


----------



## LushTurf

Been following this thread, as I am definitely interested in cost effective options for my 3.5 acres. I think I've been convinced to bite the bullet and try the Esplanade 200SC. However, I have a quick question. I've seen it mentioned a couple times that people are using 0.83 oz per acre of prodiamine with the Esplanade and that is the "max rate." That seems really low to what I'm used to using when I use just prodiamine. I'm assuming that may be in the WDG form, but it still seems low. I usually use prodiamine at 24 oz per acre of the liquid form (the thick yellow stuff). Can somebody please help me out here. Thanks.


----------



## Bombers

LushTurf said:


> Been following this thread, as I am definitely interested in cost effective options for my 3.5 acres. I think I've been convinced to bite the bullet and try the Esplanade 200SC. However, I have a quick question. I've seen it mentioned a couple times that people are using 0.83 oz per acre of prodiamine with the Esplanade and that is the "max rate." That seems really low to what I'm used to using when I use just prodiamine. I'm assuming that may be in the WDG form, but it still seems low. I usually use prodiamine at 24 oz per acre of the liquid form (the thick yellow stuff). Can somebody please help me out here. Thanks.


Think that was a typo on his end for 1k area.


----------



## Bombers

Jbird95 said:


> @cldrunner Esplanade 200SC looks solid and I think I'll try it. Question- looks like rate is .11oz/K. How does someone measure that amount? Convert to ML and use an eye dropper? Also, curious about the carrier volume per K. Thank you


I use free mL syringes from any pharmacy. With 30k of lawn I don't think you have to worry about that though. :lol:


----------



## cldrunner

@DeepC Thanks

@Jbird95 I do not get to wound up about exact measurements with 1 acre. I just convert oz to grams or ml and try to get close. I use a cheap digital scale.

@LushTurf Yes, .83 oz per 1000 sq ft. This is Prodiamine 65 WDG. This works out for me about 36 oz per year. That means I can get 2.25 years out of a 5 lb bag or dry jug for 1 acre.
https://www.seedranch.com/Prodiamine-65-WDG-Herbicide-p/prodiamine-65-wdg-5lbs-bag.htm

@Bombers and @mrmattyq are spot on with their conversion from Spectice to Esplanade:



> You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.
> 
> Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.





> compared to Specticles same app rate at just 7.2% AI (and labeled for residential)
> 
> my probably incorrect quick maths:
> 
> Specticle | .622 AI per pound @ 10oz per year = .38875 lb's AI per year
> Esplanade | 1.67 AI per pound @ 10oz per year = 1.04 lb AI per year
> 
> So roughly, Specticle's yearly dose is 38% percent of dose of Esplanade each year..


I have used the 10oz yearly rate divided into four application and have seen no issues. Personally if I was only making one Spring or Fall app I would not use more than 5 oz per acre in one application. My lawn is responding so well that I may reduce to 8 oz per year even though it is slightly higher than the Specticle rate.

@Jagermeister 


> My plan was to rotate to a different MoA annually. So this year I plan to split my apps in Fall and Spring. Prodiamine in September followed by a second app in late October plus Simazine and probably Negate to get any baby Poa. Do same app in February. Split app in ~April of Prodiamine plus Pennant Magnum to help with goosegrass (I had a large goose outbreak this year) and sedges (actually didn't have many sedges). Possibly include a blanket of dismiss and quinclorac to get any baby crab or goose. Then rotate in the fall to Esplanade (split app) and nothing else. I am assuming I would have limited breakthrough because of Esplanade. Possibly add Simazine in late October...maybe Ethofumesate or SureGuard for more MoAs (avoid ALS) in December when Bermuda is dormant... this is what Matt was recommending.
> 
> Appreciate your thoughts on this.


I'm sure this is a great plan but I prefer to keep it simple with Prodiamine, Simazine, and Indaziflam. Post emergent wise I only use Outrider(Certainty) and Celsius. With this pre-emergent plan (if applied and timed correctly) you should not have much breakthrough and very little need for post emergents.

My last thoughts on cost and prices. I have researched a lot of places to buy chemicals with *tax, shipping, and cost* in mind. 
The links I provided in an earlier post are the two places that I get most of my chemicals. Seed Ranch offers a 5% discount for customers using the code 777. A card comes with each order with the code. SiteOne has always been the best place for Celsius for me.


----------



## Jagermeister

cldrunner said:


> @Bombers Yes. I am DFW area. I try for September 1-7 and 60 days later and March 1-7 and 60 days later. I apply max rate Esplanade 2.5 oz per acre, max rate prodiamine .83 oz per acre, and .75 oz Simazine per 1000 because I have hybrid bermuda (Tiff 419).


@cldrunner Appreciate you sharing your experiences with pre-ems and how effective your program is. I understand Simazine can ding bermuda. So if you apply early fall (Sept) or late spring (around transition), are you seeing any ill effects? That was one reason I was going to do an initial app with prodiamine only in early Sept and then apply 3 MOAs in my app in late October.

Thanks in advance!


----------



## cldrunner

@Jagermeister I have not had any issues with Simazine and Bermuda at the *lower rates* for hybrid. Sounds like a good plan for you to wait until later in the Fall for your application.

Yes the label states:
Precautions: On newly sprigged turfgrass, hybrid bermudagrass, nondormant bermudagrass, or non- dormant zoysiagrass, temporary slowing of growth and yellowing may occur following application.


----------



## cldrunner

@Jagermeister @DeepC @Jbird95 @LushTurf @Amoo316 @Mikeyp_1284 This video was posted in another thread a while ago. I though it was really good in talking about a 3 mode of action approach for POA control. The 3 chemicals in this study are usually combined by manufacturer. Specticle is combined with several other pre-emergents in this study.

*Poa annua control in hybrid bermudagrass using herbicide mixtures*


----------



## Amoo316

Thanks for the link @cldrunner I eat this stuff up. I'm already a 2MOA for everything person. Adding a third MOA for a larger property is something I'm going to have to look at in balancing costs.


----------



## eric_s

I have a small yard (<6k) and would prefer not to keep a stash of chem for years. Any suggestions for the 3 MOAs plan? Thx


----------



## Redtwin

eric_s said:


> I have a small yard (<6k) and would prefer not to keep a stash of chem for years. Any suggestions for the 3 MOAs plan? Thx


Find someone to split it with you or check out the marketplace thread.


----------



## eric_s

Redtwin said:


> eric_s said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have a small yard (<6k) and would prefer not to keep a stash of chem for years. Any suggestions for the 3 MOAs plan? Thx
> 
> 
> 
> Find someone to split it with you or check out the marketplace thread.
Click to expand...

Never thought of that route  Thanks!


----------



## cldrunner

@eric_s Coastal Herbicide 64 oz. may be a good alternative as well.

https://www.sipcamagrousa.com/turf-products/herbicides/coastal/
https://www.domyown.com/coastal-herbicide-p-22477.html
https://www.pestrong.com/1972-coastal-herbicide-simazine-prodiamine-imazaquin-05-25-gal.html

.5 gallon is a 4 year supply for you at max rate. So $25 per year for a 3 mode of action approach in one bottle.

Watch the above video at the 10:27 mark.


----------



## Jagermeister

cldrunner said:


> @Jagermeister @DeepC @Jbird95 @LushTurf @Amoo316 @Mikeyp_1284 This video was posted in another thread a while ago. I though it was really good in talking about a 3 mode of action approach for POA control. The 3 chemicals in this study are usually combined by manufacturer. Specticle is combined with several other pre-emergents in this study.
> 
> *Poa annua control in hybrid bermudagrass using herbicide mixtures*


@cldrunner I had seen this video a few weeks back (as well as the video by TGF), which was where I got my idea for running Prodiamine, Simazine (pre / post) and Negate or Monument (Post) on my second Fall app. I like the idea of including both pre and post in case anything breaks through and time it so that the weeds are still young. I would still plan to rotate my MoAs annually as per TGF.


----------



## Bombers

Since there are a couple of people who have picked up Esplanade in this thread, I am looking for 4-5 oz if anyone is willing to split and sell. Not getting any hits from the marketplace thread.


----------



## Jbird95

What is the 1K max app rate for Esplanade 200? I'm figuring about 5ml/1K for max rate.


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

Bombers said:


> Since there are a couple of people who have picked up Esplanade in this thread, I am looking for 4-5 oz if anyone is willing to split and sell. Not getting any hits from the marketplace thread.


I just got some in the other day. I might be able to help you out.


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

cldrunner said:


> @Jagermeister @DeepC @Jbird95 @LushTurf @Amoo316 @Mikeyp_1284 This video was posted in another thread a while ago. I though it was really good in talking about a 3 mode of action approach for POA control. The 3 chemicals in this study are usually combined by manufacturer. Specticle is combined with several other pre-emergents in this study.
> 
> *Poa annua control in hybrid bermudagrass using herbicide mixtures*


Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## jpos34

Trying to find out the difference in the Esplenade and Specticle Flo, anything other than the higher % of AI? The Esplenade says not for residential turf use. Is this just a suggestion like that of MSMA. I found a Esplanade split in the marketplace that I would consider buying in to. Would you apply at the recommended rate on the Esplenade or somehow convert app rate over to be close to that of the Specticle Flo? If so how would I go about doing that?


----------



## Bombers

Go back a couple pages as app rates are discussed there. TLDR; you can lower it to a max yearly of 7 oz/acre to match specticle flo and stretch your product further.


----------



## Rick S

Thank you everyone for contributing to this thread. I learned a lot!

cldrunner: I will follow your plan. I just placed all my orders. 
I am near Richmond, VA. 
What dates would you target for the first Fall and first Spring apps?
Thank you again. 
Rick


----------



## cldrunner

@Rick S Since I am a North Texas guy I do not know your exact dates. In the Spring you should target soil temperatures of 55F for 5 days and in the Fall 70F for 5days.

You can use this tool:
https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature

The prodiamine label shows crabgrass germination dates in your area after April 20th.
My best guess is about :
March 15 -April 1
60 days later
August 23- Sept 7
60 days later

Make sure and read all the labels. Simazine has a note about not using north of North Carolina except in the Virginia coastal plains. I think Richmond is part of the coastal plains. Not sure.


----------



## Rick S

Thank you. I have one more question for you. 
I've had a lot of clover this year. And it crowds out my Bermuda. Spot spraying Celsius knocks it out but it keeps appearing. 
My Picture This app identifies it as Japanese Clover.
The only pre-emergent I could find to help control it is Dimension. It says 90% effective.
So, I need to apply Dimension with all my future pre-emergent apps.

At least for the next year: Do you suggest I drop one of the other 3 or should I simply include Dimension and apply all 4?

Thanks again!


----------



## cldrunner

@Rick S You could either substitute dithiopyr instead of the prodiamine since they are the same mode of action. Some would say to use a 1/2 rate of prodiamine in the Fall and a 1/2 rate of dithiopyr in the Spring since that is when you are trying to target the broadleaf clover. I think your strategy of just using Dithiopyr for a year is fine as well. You do not want to use a full yearly rate of both because they are the same mode of action.

Below is a link to a study that finds both methods are an effective strategy.

https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/downloadpdf/journals/hortsci/47/8/article-p1159.xml

This is the most cost effective source I have found for Dithiopyr(Dimension)
https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/dithiopyr-40wsb?_pos=2&_sid=17024088f&_ss=r
It comes in 4 water soluable pouches that you can throw in your tank and they dissolve. They *will not* work for small 2 gallon or 4 gallon backpack sprayers.


----------



## Rick S

Thank you. I really appreciate your guidance.


----------



## Frankzzz

Bombers said:


> You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.
> 
> Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.


7.4 is about 38.85% of 19.05, so wouldn't you use 38.85% of 10 oz to get 3.885 oz?


----------



## Frankzzz

mrmattyq said:


> Sorry to Hijack this thread, but im looking into alternating isoxaben with Speticle / esplanade this year.


Isoxaben and Indaziflam (specticle / esplanade) have the same mode of action, cellulose biosynthesis inhibitor, so you gain nothing by rotating between the 2.


----------



## Amoo316

Just to clarify the maximum Single app rate for Specticle Flo is 10oz/a, the max annual rate is 18.5oz/a










18.5x0.3885=7.18725, so 7.2


----------



## Frankzzz

Amoo316 said:


> Just to clarify the maximum Single app rate for Specticle Flo is 10oz/a, the max annual rate is 18.5oz/a
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 18.5x0.3885=7.18725, so 7.2


Ah, so that's where he got 7.2. My mistake, since he quoted 10oz.


----------



## Amoo316

Yeah no worries, I wasn't as concern with checking the math as I was making sure it was understood that 10oz/a was not the max annual (For Specticle Flo. It is the max Annual for Esplande).


----------



## Bombers

Frankzzz said:


> Bombers said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can stretch Esplanade to ~4.5 years if you break it down to Specticle Flo's label rate for residential use.
> 
> Esplanade is about 2.574 times more concentrated (19.05% vs. Specticle's 7.4%), and do the boring math you get to close 7.2 oz/A yearly max rate instead of 10 oz/A for industrial use.
> 
> 
> 
> 7.4 is about 38.85% of 19.05, so wouldn't you use 38.85% of 10 oz to get 3.885 oz?
Click to expand...

It's actually about 6.865 fl oz/A if you break down the actual weight of AI in a gallon concentrate (esplanade 1.67 lb/gal vs. specticle .667 lb/gal) :lol:


----------



## Frankzzz

@Amoo316 and @cldrunner 
So, are you both using a 3 MOA mix of Prodiamine, Simazine, and Indaziflam, but not rotating anything?

I saw the same Grass Factor video @Jagermeister mentioned, recommending Ethofumesate and Sureguard during dormancy. But isn't that a problem? Haven't too many weeds already started germinating by the time Bermuda starts going dormant, or both right about the same time? So you'd have to have the pre down before it actually goes dormant?
So what other choices does that leave, if you want to try to get a 4th or 5th MOA, if you want to start a rotation with the first 3? Bensulide? Pennant Magnum? Oxadiazon? Imazaquin?


----------



## mrmattyq

Frankzzz said:


> mrmattyq said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to Hijack this thread, but im looking into alternating isoxaben with Speticle / esplanade this year.
> 
> 
> 
> Isoxaben and Indaziflam (specticle / esplanade) have the same mode of action, cellulose biosynthesis inhibitor, so you gain nothing by rotating between the 2.
Click to expand...

Sorry - I probably should have clarified in more detail there.

Im going to use Indaziflam as part as my Fall Pre-em schedule to target POA - as i had a fairly large breakthrough this past winter. Then come spring, i will switch the Indaziflam for Isoxaben.

Fall:

Esplanade (Indaziflam)
prodiamine
Simazine

Spring:

Galllery (Isoxaben)
prodiamine
Simazine


----------



## cldrunner

@Frankzzz Those are the three I am using. I do not plan on rotating out. I just use a little less Simazine in the first Fall app until grass starts going dormant.

I find it unnecessary and not cost effective to buy any different chemicals. I use Certainty and Celsius for post if needed.


----------



## nichord

I have a question about the 3 MOA plan (Esplande, Prodiamine, and Simazine) as to dormant/drought stressed Bermuda. We have been 66 days as of today without any rain and temps have been 10 to 15 degrees above what is normal. Couldn't find a dry day to top-dress with sand in the Spring and now worst dry spell I have ever seen here. I have an acre of Bermuda (1/2 hybrid, 1/2 common) and had to stop watering some of it to try to keep other areas green. Even in the areas that I water heavily still has some drought stress. What happens if we don't get any rain and no green up before I need to put down pre-emergent? We are still in soil temps of 82 degrees for 24 hr average, but no rain still in sight. As a transition zone, we could end up with a cold rain in a few weeks and drop the ground temps very quickly.

Which, if any of the 3 pre-emergents should I avoid if the Bermuda is still dormant from drought? What about areas that are drought stressed but still green? I have all three on hand, waiting on some rain that never occurs. I am assuming I shouldn't worry about dinging the Bermuda as it has already had its bell rung. I should just get the 1st app down before the ground temps get below 70 and hope it gets watered in.


----------



## Amoo316

nichord said:


> I have a question about the 3 MOA plan (Esplande, Prodiamine, and Simazine) as to dormant/drought stressed Bermuda. We have been 66 days as of today without any rain and temps have been 10 to 15 degrees above what is normal. Couldn't find a dry day to top-dress with sand in the Spring and now worst dry spell I have ever seen here. I have an acre of Bermuda (1/2 hybrid, 1/2 common) and had to stop watering some of it to try to keep other areas green. Even in the areas that I water heavily still has some drought stress. What happens if we don't get any rain and no green up before I need to put down pre-emergent? We are still in soil temps of 82 degrees for 24 hr average, but no rain still in sight. As a transition zone, we could end up with a cold rain in a few weeks and drop the ground temps very quickly.
> 
> Which, if any of the 3 pre-emergents should I avoid if the Bermuda is still dormant from drought? What about areas that are drought stressed but still green? I have all three on hand, waiting on some rain that never occurs. I am assuming I shouldn't worry about dinging the Bermuda as it has already had its bell rung. I should just get the 1st app down before the ground temps get below 70 and hope it gets watered in.


Dormant Bermuda is Dormant Bermuda, wouldn't be much different then an early spring app IMO. I'd be a little more worried about the green but drought stressed areas with the Simazine.

My personal strategy if I were in your situation would be to either suck up the water bill hit and get the green drought stressed areas looking good a week prior to some forecast rain, or if none ever gets forecast and you're getting to the 75ish soil temp and dropping area, water it then.

Esplande and Prodiamine don't have any post action that I am aware of, Simazine does, so that would be the one I would triple check the label on, or just omit in fall 1 and wait for fall 2.


----------



## nichord

Amoo316 said:


> Dormant Bermuda is Dormant Bermuda, wouldn't be much different then an early spring app IMO. I'd be a little more worried about the green but drought stressed areas with the Simazine.
> 
> My personal strategy if I were in your situation would be to either suck up the water bill hit and get the green drought stressed areas looking good a week prior to some forecast rain, or if none ever gets forecast and you're getting to the 75ish soil temp and dropping area, water it then.
> 
> Esplande and Prodiamine don't have any post action that I am aware of, Simazine does, so that would be the one I would triple check the label on, or just omit in fall 1 and wait for fall 2.


Eliminating the Simazine for the first Fall app was what I was leaning toward, then it should all be dormant for the second Fall app. My concern was hurting anything green that may be trying to store energy for the winter. Not sure how the drought dormant stuff is going to fair without being able to "prep" itself for winter, but its Bermuda so it will fine with some Nitrogen next year. Water bill is already up there trying to water the 1/2 acre I am keeping green with no rain the past 2 months. No way will I be able to get the rest to turn green with how dry we are and it is mostly clay based soil. I have a narrow window mid next week when a cold front comes in that it might trigger a rain, so I am shooting for that to hopefully water my first app in. I will water it in with the irrigation if it is a miss, because we are going to see cooler temps on the backside of the front. Thanks for the input on the Simazine. I have never used it but it seems from what I read that some people shy away from it with the first Fall app and the second Spring app to keep from dinging the Bermuda.


----------



## Amoo316

nichord said:


> Eliminating the Simazine for the first Fall app was what I was leaning toward, then it should all be dormant for the second Fall app. My concern was hurting anything green that may be trying to store energy for the winter. Not sure how the drought dormant stuff is going to fair without being able to "prep" itself for winter, but its Bermuda so it will fine with some Nitrogen next year. Water bill is already up there trying to water the 1/2 acre I am keeping green with no rain the past 2 months. No way will I be able to get the rest to turn green with how dry we are and it is mostly clay based soil. I have a narrow window mid next week when a cold front comes in that it might trigger a rain, so I am shooting for that to hopefully water my first app in. I will water it in with the irrigation if it is a miss, because we are going to see cooler temps on the backside of the front. Thanks for the input on the Simazine. I have never used it but it seems from what I read that some people shy away from it with the first Fall app and the second Spring app to keep from dinging the Bermuda.


Dunno what your fert plan looks like, but you might try dropping a fast release balanced fert this week on just your green stressed areas at a low rate to try to give them the best setup possible, especially if you might get the rain next week.


----------



## Ware

@nichord I have been watching the forecast over here in western Arkansas too and unfortunately I haven't seen anything that makes me comfortable enough to spray my fall pre-e - knowing irrigation is not an option. I think we tend to get nervous as we move into mid-September and the hot/dry weather pattern persists, but the rain will come with the cooler temps. Just keep the faith. :thumbup:


----------



## nichord

@Ware I am trying to keep the faith, but with each passing popup shower missing us.. I am just not for sure anymore. Fun little graphic from the Oklahoma Mesonet. Day 67 now... Truly dry climate guys rolling their eyes. :lol:



I don't want to get too far off topic, but it looks like a lot of "bigger" yard size guys are looking at this topic to knock out weed pressure/expensive post herbicide on big areas using the 3 MOA approach. I am still using the Spreadermate B on all the areas that have been sand leveled and are being cut by the GM1600 as I would not want to run my big mower on these areas, but just finished up a rig to spray the rest of the property. I also have another property that I own that is 2.5 acres that I spray part of it as well. I will be spraying some of the pre-e with this rig and thought some of you guys might like it. It has all the same components as the Spreadermate except a 5.5gpm pump and some gray nozzles on the way to bump up to 4mph app speed. Spray tank built on 4 legs to stand on when removed. 4 pins and 1 12v plug and mower is left with just 2 mount points. Threw in a foot operated switch that comes off with the tank as well.


----------



## Amoo316

@nichord I feel for you. We've been in the exact opposite situation. We've gotten rain weekly all summer but instead of nice slow drenching rains everything has been 1"+ in 30 minute type rains. We're sitting on 8.65 inches in September already and right at 2" and counting over the last 16 hours.










Our ground is so saturated, just finding days to mow has been a challenge.

June 10.4", July 13.1", August 7", September 8.65" already.

Never seen anything like this.


----------



## Redtwin

Amoo316 said:


> @nichord I feel for you. We've been in the exact opposite situation. We've gotten rain weekly all summer but instead of nice slow drenching rains everything has been 1"+ in 30 minute type rains. We're sitting on 8.65 inches in September already and right at 2" and counting over the last 16 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Our ground is so saturated, just finding days to mow has been a challenge.
> 
> June 10.4", July 13.1", August 7", September 8.65" already.
> 
> Never seen anything like this.


Same here in North Florida. It's been a very wet summer to say the least. I haven't mowed my zoysia in almost two weeks and forget about getting out to spray anything.


----------



## Amoo316

Redtwin said:


> Same here in North Florida. It's been a very wet summer to say the least. I haven't mowed my zoysia in almost two weeks and forget about getting out to spray anything.


I didn't see you around here for a few days. I went down to Talquin for a tournament the day after the TS rolled through. They said it came in Apalachicola Bay so they didn't get affected I assumed you were good over on your side as well, but you've been getting hammered with all the tails from Ida.


----------



## Redtwin

Yeah, I've been working out of town for the past couple of weeks. Luckily my PGR is working overtime on the Emprire but it's time to get out there and reapply and I can't because it's all soaking wet. We got a lot of the outer bands from Ida and keeping getting the bands off of Nicolas but I'm hoping things dry out early next week. It beats taking a direct hit though. I'm still up in the air regarding if I prefer a wet year or a dry year. My utility bill is liking the wet season. I can't remember the last time I had my irrigation running.

Back on topic... I just ordered a jug of Simazine and plan to start hitting both the Tifway and the Empire rotating 6-month rates of Prodiamine and Simazine but offset by 3 months to fill the gaps.

January - Simazine
April - Prodiamine
July - Simazine
October - Prodiamine


----------



## Amoo316

Redtwin said:


> Back on topic... I just ordered a jug of Simazine and plan to start hitting both the Tifway and the Empire rotating 6-month rates of Prodiamine and Simazine but offset by 3 months to fill the gaps.
> 
> January - Simazine
> April - Prodiamine
> July - Simazine
> October - Prodiamine


You might consider swapping that, you don't want to be putting the Simazine down in the heat of summer.


----------



## JW Burns

cldrunner said:


> @Rick S Since I am a North Texas guy I do not know your exact dates. In the Spring you should target soil temperatures of 55F for 5 days and in the Fall 70F for 5days.
> 
> You can use this tool:
> https://www.greencastonline.com/tools/soil-temperature
> 
> The prodiamine label shows crabgrass germination dates in your area after April 20th.
> My best guess is about :
> March 15 -April 1
> 60 days later
> August 23- Sept 7
> 60 days later
> 
> Make sure and read all the labels. Simazine has a note about not using north of North Carolina except in the Virginia coastal plains. I think Richmond is part of the coastal plains. Not sure.


@cldrunner

Since we're still at 80 soil temp here in north Texas, I assume you've not put down your pre yet?

I feel like at this rate it will be mid October until we see 70 five days in a row.


----------



## Erickson89

Amoo316 said:


> nichord said:
> 
> 
> 
> Eliminating the Simazine for the first Fall app was what I was leaning toward, then it should all be dormant for the second Fall app. My concern was hurting anything green that may be trying to store energy for the winter. Not sure how the drought dormant stuff is going to fair without being able to "prep" itself for winter, but its Bermuda so it will fine with some Nitrogen next year. Water bill is already up there trying to water the 1/2 acre I am keeping green with no rain the past 2 months. No way will I be able to get the rest to turn green with how dry we are and it is mostly clay based soil. I have a narrow window mid next week when a cold front comes in that it might trigger a rain, so I am shooting for that to hopefully water my first app in. I will water it in with the irrigation if it is a miss, because we are going to see cooler temps on the backside of the front. Thanks for the input on the Simazine. I have never used it but it seems from what I read that some people shy away from it with the first Fall app and the second Spring app to keep from dinging the Bermuda.
> 
> 
> 
> Dunno what your fert plan looks like, but you might try dropping a fast release balanced fert this week on just your green stressed areas at a low rate to try to give them the best setup possible, especially if you might get the rain next week.
Click to expand...

@Amoo316 I know it's off topic but where do you actually find a fast release fertilizer? Everything at Home Depot or Lowe's seems to be a slow release fertilizer.


----------



## Amoo316

Erickson89 said:


> @Amoo316 I know it's off topic but where do you actually find a fast release fertilizer? Everything at Home Depot or Lowe's seems to be a slow release fertilizer.


Look at some of the stuff that's just labeled "plant food". I buy 10-10-10 All Purpose Plant food from a local farm supply store.

Here's a larger bag from Lowes


----------



## Erickson89

Thank you!


----------



## Amoo316

Erickson89 said:


> Thank you!


 :thumbup:


----------



## cldrunner

@JW Burns I applied my irrigated about a week ago. The Spring app will only last so long so the Fall needs to get down soon. If you have non irrigated it is a waiting game until we have a few showers in the forecast. @greendoc stated in a previous post that there is very little loss of efficacy lost up to 14 days with prodiamine before it gets watered in. Crazy thing is we have no rain in the forecast for the next 2 weeks.....OUCH!


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

Was browsing today and ran across these two products. These look just like specticle flo and esplanade but more expensive. Why market the same product under a different name? Looks like they maybe marketed for fruit farms?

https://www.domyown.com/marengo-herbicide-p-21400.html

https://www.domyown.com/bayer-alion-herbicide-p-21801.html


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

Also thanks again for everyone that contributed to this thread. I have learned a lot.


----------



## Bombers

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> Was browsing today and ran across these two products. These look just like specticle flo and esplanade but more expensive. Why market the same product under a different name? Looks like they maybe marketed for fruit farms?
> 
> https://www.domyown.com/marengo-herbicide-p-21400.html
> 
> https://www.domyown.com/bayer-alion-herbicide-p-21801.html


I think Bayer Agro still holds the patent for indaziflam so they can do whatever they want lol. There's also Rejuvra and Rezilon recently added to their line.


----------



## FATC1TY

I was under the impression since Specticle Flo has gotten harder to find, they were going to just go with Marengo and market it for multi-use, albeit st the higher price tag. Hope that's not the case.


----------



## Amoo316

Wait a product is popular and working so Bayer discontinues it, slaps a new label on it and raises the price tag? No not Bayer.

Wife is a veterinarian and I run the business side. If you all saw the "real" prices of a lot of these drugs and how often these companies do the exact same thing it would make you sick. This move comes as no surprise to me from Bayer, it's a reason I hate buying Bayer stuff unless I have to. They're one of the best at "riding her till she bucks".

Here's a full list of anything and everything "indazaflam" on DMO:

https://www.domyown.com/search?w=Indaziflam&search=

Fwiw Chemwarehouse still has Esplande quarts cheaper than the "alion" quart.

https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=298d83951&_ss=r


----------



## gooodawgs

Those prices really make esplanade seem like a bargain!


----------



## Mikeyp_1284

Amoo316 said:


> Wait a product is popular and working so Bayer discontinues it, slaps a new label on it and raises the price tag? No not Bayer.
> 
> Wife is a veterinarian and I run the business side. If you all saw the "real" prices of a lot of these drugs and how often these companies do the exact same thing it would make you sick. This move comes as no surprise to me from Bayer, it's a reason I hate buying Bayer stuff unless I have to. They're one of the best at "riding her till she bucks".
> 
> Here's a full list of anything and everything "indazaflam" on DMO:
> 
> https://www.domyown.com/search?w=Indaziflam&search=
> 
> Fwiw Chemwarehouse still has Esplande quarts cheaper than the "alion" quart.
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=298d83951&_ss=r


So specticle flo and esplanade have been discontinued?


----------



## Amoo316

Mikeyp_1284 said:


> Amoo316 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a product is popular and working so Bayer discontinues it, slaps a new label on it and raises the price tag? No not Bayer.
> 
> Wife is a veterinarian and I run the business side. If you all saw the "real" prices of a lot of these drugs and how often these companies do the exact same thing it would make you sick. This move comes as no surprise to me from Bayer, it's a reason I hate buying Bayer stuff unless I have to. They're one of the best at "riding her till she bucks".
> 
> Here's a full list of anything and everything "indazaflam" on DMO:
> 
> https://www.domyown.com/search?w=Indaziflam&search=
> 
> Fwiw Chemwarehouse still has Esplande quarts cheaper than the "alion" quart.
> 
> https://chemicalwarehouse.com/products/esplanade-200sc-herbicide?_pos=2&_sid=298d83951&_ss=r
> 
> 
> 
> So specticle flo and esplanade have been discontinued?
Click to expand...

Specticle Flo does indeed look to be rebranded to Mango Habanero Sauce. Esplande 200SC, I'm unsure on, but it LOOKS like Alion is going to be the "quart version? I haven't gone to Bayer's website to look at their product list, but that's what it looks like from Distribution we're seeing.

Side note, this is why I hate Celcius, because Bayer owns it and I know the games they play.


----------



## FATC1TY

I think it's likely more geared towards larger packaging, thus to make smaller users and homeowners less likely to use.


----------



## Bombers

Specticle Flo is approved for and geared towards turf management industry so it's unlikely they completely pull them...probably only making them available through certain channels and not retail.


----------



## Pistol58

@cldrunner

I am near you and wanting to do the exact same pre-em routine.

I am having a hard time with rates and labels. I am a rookie I guess you could say.

I am trying to get a breakdown calculation of the prodiamine and simazine per square foot used at 1/4 rate (since I am spraying 4 times a year)

I cant seem to wrap my head around the math..

My front yard is right at 10k sf, and back is about 20k. I will probably only be spraying 12k if the back though.


----------



## GoDawgs

@Pistol58 I'm doing the same. This is the correct rates, I hope. Someone else can confirm.

Prodiamine 
4 apps per year .21oz/M or 5.95grams/M per app

Simizine 
4apps per year .75oz/M or 22.2ml/M


----------



## Bombers

Max yearly rate for simazine is 3 qt/acre or 2.20 oz/M.

I'm putting down .55/M 4x a year.


----------



## Pistol58

Appreciate the responses. Again, another rookie question, what does /M stand for exactly? Math never was my strong suit..

Tried to google, but couldnt find the answer


----------



## nichord

@Pistol58 M is roman numeral for 1,000. Just another way of saying per 1,000 sq ft. Seen many different ways people on here have represented the 1ksqft, but the math and wrapping ones head around the concepts gets more difficult when new terms are thrown into the equation. :mrgreen: Trying to switch back and forth between 1,000 sq ft and acre during conversations makes for more fun as well.


----------



## Pistol58

AH! I thought that was the case, but definitely didnt want to assume. Much appreciated all. I think I am starting to take a turn for the better in understanding all of this. LOL


----------



## UltimateLawn

Use ft² (use Alt-178 for Windows and Option + 00B2 for Mac) for the superscript ². Eliminates any confusion or using antiquated Roman Numerals. The only thing using Roman numerals anymore is the Olympics and Superbowls.


----------



## Redtwin

I just say 1000sf. It's a couple more key strokes but less confusing. I like the subscript 2 as well but can't seem to get the ALT-178 to work.

You could also use the SUP command in BBC code.

ft2 - Click quote this message to see what it looks like.


----------



## JW Burns

@cldrunner May I ask a terribly dumb question..

I'm following the same three MOA as you with Indaziflam, Prodiamine, and Simazine. I made my first application last week, and just want to make sure I did it correctly. Since Prodiamine is a dry granular, that one is measured in weight, correct? So following your procedure, I did Prodiamine at a rate of .2075oz/1000, and since I have 8000sqft, I put down 1.66oz of Prodiamine by weight using my digital scale.

Sorry again for the dumb question, but I'm terribly new at this!


----------



## GoDawgs

@JW Burns your rate and math is spot on.


----------



## cldrunner

@JW Burns Perfect calculation!


----------



## LittleBearBermuda

When a pre emergent labels say "do not apply to greens, tees or collars" are the just referring to the HOC? I was planning on using Specticle G but if the lable is referring to the HOC then I shouldn't use it? I keep my HOC under .5


----------



## nichord

Generally the issues with greens, tees, and collars is the sensitive grasses that can be involved with these areas. Bentgrass is usually what comes to mind first. Overseeding would be an issue with a long residue product as well. Label will likely talk about what grasses should be avoided with that particular product. HOC I don't think would have any effect on the ground application of a pre-emergent unless there are some post emergent properties that may come in. Someone else might chime in on this as well.


----------



## Rick S

@cldrunner 
I applied Prodiamine, Princep, and Esplanade at the 1/4th max rate/year rate on September 10th.

Within days the lawn lost a lot of its color and growth has all but stopped.

I had been pushing growth and spreading and have been applying 0.5lb of N/1000 every 7-10 days for the past 2 months. My lateral growth was amazing! I applied my last fertilizer a week later. 
The weather was just as warm for the week after and has cooled very slightly since, so that's not a factor.

Are those pre-emergents known to weaken color and halt growth?
Any ideas what might have gone wrong?
I plan to apply the same as my 2nd Fall split app 60 days later - but now I am very hesitant to do that if I'm hurting the lawn.
Thanks for your help.


----------



## Bombers

It's almost the end of the season for bermuda. Day light is getting shorter and less heat that bermuda loves. Your lawn will probably be dormant/brown in 60 days. I wouldn't want to push growth this time of the year.


----------



## Amoo316

SImazine is known to slow down growth temporarily. I said this in another thread, but I put down my fall pre-M at the same time I expect my last fertilizer app to expire, which for me was this week. I wouldn't keep pushing that late into the season as far north as you are.


----------



## cldrunner

@Rick S 
Prodiamine-No
Indaziflam-No
Simazine- Possibly. Simazine works as a post emergent as well.

From the Simazine label:
_Precautions: On newly sprigged turfgrass, hybrid bermudagrass, nondormant bermudagrass or non- dormant zoysiagrass, temporary slowing of growth and yellowing may occur following application._

Your *night* temps are in the low 60's now. I would expect growth to slow. In 60 days your lawn will probably be dormant. I do not mind the slowing of growth as this time of the season I am ready to slow my mowing. Yellowing is always a possibility with any post emergent like Simazine.


----------



## Rick S

You guys are awesome! Thank you!


----------



## Rick S

@cldrunner 
I believe you use Simazine in both of your Spring split applications as well. 
How long does it inhibit growth? Does it affect the Bermuda once it begins to green-up in the Spring?


----------



## gooodawgs

Not sure if it was the simazine or the cooler temperatures, but my bermuda stunt mites all turned brown a week after my pre-em went down. I'm glad theyre gone, but curious what happened....


----------



## Frankzzz

@Rick S 
What rate did you apply the Esplanade at? Did you use the Specticle Flo rate or did you make sure to adjust for the higher concentration? Esplanade is 19.05% indaziflam, Specticle Flo is 7.4%.


----------



## Rick S

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the thought. I did use the Esplanade rate.

My notes for myself: 
Max rate which is 10oz/ACRE/year. 
An acre = 43,500 sq'.
10oz divided by 43.5 = 0.230oz/1000/year. 
I have 38,000 sq'.
Times 38 (1000sq') = 8.73oz/1000/year. 
Divide into 4 apps = 2.18oz/app. 
* It takes 2, 41 gallon tankfulls to spray my entire yard. 
Divided by 2 tankfulls/app = 1.10oz/1 tankfull.


----------



## Bombers

Frankzzz said:


> @Rick S
> What rate did you apply the Esplanade at? Did you use the Specticle Flo rate or did you make sure to adjust for the higher concentration? Esplanade is 19.05% indaziflam, Specticle Flo is 7.4%.


I personally went with 7-8 oz/A max a year to match specticle's rate for home lawns. You can pull the actual lbs of AI per gallon on both labels to get the conversion. I forgot the exact number since it's on my work computer lol.


----------



## Frankzzz

@Rick S 
Esplanade's 10oz/acre/year max is not for turfgrass, tho, so I think you may have used too much. But you only used 1/4 of that for one app, so that wouldn't have negatively affected your lawn, but I don't know what 4 apps totalling greater than the max annual rate will do.
Esplanade isn't labeled for turfgrass at all, so that's why you need to adjust the rate to try to match Specticle.

Specticle's AI of 7.4% is 38.84% of Esplanade's 19.05% -- 7.4 divided by 19.05 = .3884
Specticle's max annual rate for turfgrass is 18.5oz/acre/year. 
So, in order to equal Specticle's max of 18.5oz, you would use 7.18oz/acre/year max of Esplanade - 
18.5 x .3884 = 7.18
(Some other people did the math for this back on pages 2-3 of this thread).


----------



## Rick S

Thank you for taking the time to explain all this and keep me straight. 
I am brand new to Bermuda and these products - and this was my first Fall pre-emergent app on it. 
There was a lot of great information in this thread when I read it, and a lot of different products, and I missed that point.
Again, truly; thank you everyone for being so helpful!


----------



## everytuesday

I've been reading through everything and I still have a question. I've been using the LCN's Yard Mastery app to do my lawn this year and so far it has been great. However, it told me to apply pre-emergent on sept 24th and I did following Allen's recommended rate for Zoysia using Prodiamine 65WG for the fall at 13g per 1000sqft. However in his article he states that I should only need to do this once in the fall and then wait till spring to apply again, BUT the app is telling me to again apply pre-emergent in late Oct. So I wanted to get a second opinion here. Thoughts? Did I do it right? Did I mess up? Can I just tell the app to skip this step?

Thanks for any advice,
Spencer


----------



## nichord

@everytuesday You applied at 13g which is about .46oz / 1,000 sqft. Yearly max is .83oz per 1K for Prodiamine 65WG for warm season grass, so you used a bit over half the yearly rate. The app you put down would be good for 6+ months, so you would not want to apply a split app unless you plan to use a different MOA in the Spring. In order to break up into 4 apps, you would put down .2075oz per 1K sqft per app.

I would skip the second app for the Fall and it will leave you with .83 (yearly max) - .46 (applied in Fall) = .37oz per 1K available for your Spring app.

Breaking up into 4 apps is not necessary, but just adds a layer of protection in case of missed spots in first app, app not getting watered in on time, temperature issues, or another physical disruption of the barrier. No harm, no foul on a single app in Fall and single in Spring instead of 2 each. App appears to be using split apps and document was using single apps for Fall and Spring. Your application rate aligns with 1 in Spring and 1 in Fall. Hope this clarifies.


----------



## everytuesday

nichord said:


> @everytuesday You applied at 13g which is about .46oz / 1,000 sqft. Yearly max is .83oz per 1K for Prodiamine 65WG for warm season grass, so you used a bit over half the yearly rate. The app you put down would be good for 6+ months, so you would not want to apply a split app unless you plan to use a different MOA in the Spring. In order to break up into 4 apps, you would put down .2075oz per 1K sqft per app.
> 
> I would skip the second app for the Fall and it will leave you with .83 (yearly max) - .46 (applied in Fall) = .37oz per 1K available for your Spring app.
> 
> Breaking up into 4 apps is not necessary, but just adds a layer of protection in case of missed spots in first app, app not getting watered in on time, temperature issues, or another physical disruption of the barrier. No harm, no foul on a single app in Fall and single in Spring instead of 2 each. App appears to be using split apps and document was using single apps for Fall and Spring. Your application rate aligns with 1 in Spring and 1 in Fall. Hope this clarifies.


@nichord 
Ah Super clear! Thank you so much for writing this all out in an easy to understand way.


----------



## JayGo

Frankzzz said:


> @Rick S
> Esplanade's 10oz/acre/year max is not for turfgrass, tho, so I think you may have used too much. But you only used 1/4 of that for one app, so that wouldn't have negatively affected your lawn, but I don't know what 4 apps totalling greater than the max annual rate will do.
> Esplanade isn't labeled for turfgrass at all, so that's why you need to adjust the rate to try to match Specticle.
> 
> Specticle's AI of 7.4% is 38.84% of Esplanade's 19.05% -- 7.4 divided by 19.05 = .3884
> Specticle's max annual rate for turfgrass is 18.5oz/acre/year.
> So, in order to equal Specticle's max of 18.5oz, you would use 7.18oz/acre/year max of Esplanade -
> 18.5 x .3884 = 7.18
> (Some other people did the math for this back on pages 2-3 of this thread).


I'm glad someone chimed in with this. The percentage of A.I. is significantly different. Even if using the Esplanade rate doesn't cause any "visible damage" to turf, it sure seems like wasted money.


----------



## jpos34

Its time now for my second Pre-E app of Esplenade. I've reached my 60 day window. This week the only time I really have is in the evening just before its going to be getting dark. Is it ok to apply late in the day when it wont have time to dry before the dew comes in the evening. Or should I wait till next week when i can apply in the morning but after my 60 day window?


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## Bombers

Pre-E should be reaching the thatch/soil layer and watered in anyways. it's not a foliar app so dew shouldn't be a concern. If rain is not in the forecast, I'd run a light irrigation session overnight (.25") if you have it.


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## killacam

Amoo316 said:


> Mikeyp_1284 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I gotcha. So you spray just Simazine in the fall or a combination of things. The spectical flo is kinda pricey for a couple apps. I'm kinda torn.
> 
> 
> 
> Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. There were a TON of people that gave excellent advice in this thread, so I want to make sure none of that gets overlooked.
> 
> When I read the OP it stated "'I'm already spraying Prodiamine, but what could I add". I looked at that and said, "Hmm, Simazine offers broad spectrum control, which has a different MOA then Prodiamine, I might suggest that as an additive."
> 
> I also stated that I do not spray anything by itself and I spray multiple MOAs at one time
> 
> Break for a service announcement: MOA = Method of Action, different chemicals work differently to inhibit growth. Because I have so much land, it's more cost effective for me to spray 2+ different MOAs 1 time (or a split app) then to spray 1 thing and spot treat.
> 
> If you want to spray 1 thing, I 100% feel Specticle Flo is the best solo spray solution for that specific problem. In fact Specticle Flo is probably the best Pre-M on the market period for MOST things. I'm also a HUGE believer in rotating MOAs, example, say I choose to spray Simazine and X this fall. In spring, I will spray 1/2 things with different MOAs then what I sprayed in the fall.
> 
> Let's say I chose Dithiopyr as my "kicker" with Simazine for this fall. I would be willing to spray Dithiopyr again next spring, but I would choose a different "kicker" to go with it.
> 
> My point is, I wouldn't spray the same thing more then 2 times in a row and I wouldn't rely on any less than 2 MOAs. If you have 5K or 7K square feet, spot treatment may be a viable option. With 2+ acres, for me it is not, hence I try to spray 1 time (twice for split app) and spot treat as little as possible afterwards. If I have to spot treat, I failed (unless I knew I was leaving an opening) and need to re-evaluate.
> 
> It's simply a different way of looking at things. You can't cover everything with 1 product. I have so much land I can't afford to be spot treating things I "missed" with my applications. As a result, I try to cover as much as possible each and every app.
> 
> I'm sorry for the long winded explanation, but I really felt that needed to be cleared up. I wouldn't spray just SImazine in the fall and feel I was, "good for everything". I would look at the label, see what Simazine controls, look at the weeds in my yard and decide if it is more cost effective for me to treat them Pre/Post. Simazine is a GREAT tool in the FALL IMO. It is not the only thing I would spray in fall ever. I hope that makes sense.
> 
> (At the end of the day, if I was VERY limited in what I could have, I would probably go Specticle + Prodiamine in the spring and Specticle plus Simazine in the fall. Limit me more and I could take Prodiamine in the Spring and Simazien in the fall and know I was going to br treating certain things with a post.)
Click to expand...

Are you mixing Simazine, Specticle, and Prodiamine in the same tank all at once? I'm going to apply my second split app in a couple weeks and just wanted to make sure I can mix all of these with no negative effects.


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## Jagermeister

I just did that over the weekend plus kickers - Negate, Triad, Quinclorac, MSO due to major Poa and broadleaf outbreak.


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## Rick S

I mixed all 3 also. I sprayed my 1st split app 60 days ago and my 2nd split app yesterday.

Something really took the color away and stunted its growth for 30+ days. The Simazine label says it can do that so I assume that's the one that did it.

I might cut the Simazine to half what I applied in my next Spring 1st app, and I definitely will not apply it in my 2nd Spring app.


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## cldrunner

@Rick S I just wonder if Simazine may not be a good solution for you since you are so far north. I had pointed this out earlier. I just wonder if a low dose of sulfentrazone may be a better substitute for the Simazine especially if sedges are an issue in the Summer.

See my post:
https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=455129#p455129

Label: Do not use north of NC (except in the VA Coastal Plains) or on soils with a pH above 7.8.


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## SEBermuda

For those who have experience with Indaziflam. Does it control Chamberbitter?


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## Amoo316

Yes I mix all three. Yes Simazine will slow and slightly yellow if the grass is still growing vigorously.


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## SEBermuda

Rick S said:


> At least for the next year: Do you suggest I drop one of the other 3 or should I simply include Dimension and apply all 4?


I have all 4. And use half rate barricade in the fall, half rate of dimension in the spring. I inherited a neglected yard with strong grassy weed pressure. I think dimension is a stronger grassy PreM than barricade due to the post crab, which will also help on top of the post crab specticle. Add surfactant for the Post baby crab control. Dimension also helps with dallisgrass annual seeds, according to the label, as well as other weeds like the one that you mentioned here. Hope this helps!


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## SEBermuda

Rick S said:


> I mixed all 3 also. I sprayed my 1st split app 60 days ago and my 2nd split app yesterday.
> 
> Something really took the color away and stunted its growth for 30+ days. The Simazine label says it can do that so I assume that's the one that did it.
> 
> I might cut the Simazine to half what I applied in my next Spring 1st app, and I definitely will not apply it in my 2nd Spring app.


I'm using the same strategy. And my grass does seem stunted compared to last year this time around.


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## Rick S

cldrunner said:


> @Rick S I just wonder if Simazine may not be a good solution for you since you are so far north. I had pointed this out earlier. I just wonder if a low dose of sulfentrazone may be a better substitute for the Simazine especially if sedges are an issue in the Summer.
> 
> See my post:
> https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=455129#p455129
> 
> Label: Do not use north of NC (except in the VA Coastal Plains) or on soils with a pH above 7.8.


 Thanks.


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## reddy

Jbird95 said:


> What is the 1K max app rate for Esplanade 200? I'm figuring about 5ml/1K for max rate.


Is this correct? What is conversion from oz to ml for this? I am getting Esplanade today and would rather use syringe with ml calculation than oz or grams…I need to mix 10 gallons at a time


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## CenlaLowell

reddy said:


> Jbird95 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the 1K max app rate for Esplanade 200? I'm figuring about 5ml/1K for max rate.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this correct? What is conversion from oz to ml for this? I am getting Esplanade today and would rather use syringe with ml calculation than oz or grams…I need to mix 10 gallons at a time
Click to expand...

Why exactly mixing 10 gallons at a time? It's 6 oz/acre max I pretty sure. That means it's .13 oz/1k and for your 10 gallons it's 1.3 oz total. See it's easy.


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## reddy

CenlaLowell said:


> reddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jbird95 said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the 1K max app rate for Esplanade 200? I'm figuring about 5ml/1K for max rate.
> 
> 
> 
> Is this correct? What is conversion from oz to ml for this? I am getting Esplanade today and would rather use syringe with ml calculation than oz or grams…I need to mix 10 gallons at a time
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Why exactly mixing 10 gallons at a time? It's 6 oz/acre max I pretty sure. That means it's .13 oz/1k and for your 10 gallons it's 1.3 oz total. See it's easy.
Click to expand...

I am looking to do 4 split apps this year and will need measure ~0.5oz. Thought using a syringe and ml would be lot more accurate. I just have a 12 gallon sprayer and will be mixing 10 gallons once and 8 gallons second time.


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## Bombers

reddy said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reddy said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this correct? What is conversion from oz to ml for this? I am getting Esplanade today and would rather use syringe with ml calculation than oz or grams…I need to mix 10 gallons at a time
> 
> 
> 
> Why exactly mixing 10 gallons at a time? It's 6 oz/acre max I pretty sure. That means it's .13 oz/1k and for your 10 gallons it's 1.3 oz total. See it's easy.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am looking to do 4 split apps this year and will need measure ~0.5oz. Thought using a syringe and ml would be lot more accurate. I just have a 12 gallon sprayer and will be mixing 10 gallons once and 8 gallons second time.
Click to expand...

Esplanade label states 10 oz/A max, but that's for industrial land use. When converting lbs of active AI to Specticle for lawn use, it's right around 7 oz/A. That converts to 4.761 mL/1000 sq ft yearly max. Splitpity split 4 times to get your 4 apps rate.


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## reddy

Thank you @CenlaLowell and @Bombers


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## JayGo

@Bombers, quick question for you since you seem to have your head wrapped around "Esplanade to Specticle" conversions.

Do you do your 4 apps every 3 months to cover the whole year? Or do you do those 4 apps in the 40-45 day windows the label suggests?

Esplanade label says weed control with the suggested app rate is expected to be 8 months. I'm assuming since we're converting to Specticle rates, that it's now less than 8 months. Any thoughts on this?


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## Bombers

@JayGo 
Actually specticle's label states that a max single app rate of 10 oz/A covers up to 8 months.

I do 4 Esplanade apps in 45-60 days window. 2 for spring and 2 for fall. I believe Specticle's low rate (3-6 oz/A) gets you around 4-6 months of coverage. But since you're applying 2 low rate apps within a close window, which is essentially equal a full single app per season, it works out equal to or greater than 8 months of coverage. This split method should still give me some residual AI left in the soil even at my first Fall app in September even though my last spring app was in April.


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## JayGo

@Bombers, thanks for the info. And you're doing straight up Esplanade apps, right? I think I remember reading that you're doing the max rate of 10oz/acre/year. Do I have that right? And you're not seeing any issues with that rate?


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## Bombers

@JayGo 
I'm actually doing 7 oz/A yearly max and stacking it with simazine and prodiamine. That was my conversion to match Specticle's 18.5 oz/A max. I only started last fall and in a few weeks will be my 4/4 app. No weeds so far with the previous 3 so I guess you can say the 7 oz rate is working out so far. I think there are a couple others before me in this thread who has applied the Esplanades 10 oz max rate.


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## JayGo

@Bombers, very cool. So just to check my math, at the 7oz/acre/year, you're talking about .16oz/1k/year. If that's right, then you're doing four apps of .04oz/1K?

I'm doing the same "cocktail"....esplanade, simazine, and prodiamine. This'll be the very first season I'll be using something other than prodiamine/dithiopyr. It's worked fantastically for me for the last 7 or 8 years, so I'm a bit reluctant to switch; however, I have read enough stuff to believe that switching to/rotating a new a.i. might be in my best interest.

Great to hear it's working for you. Hope I don't regret my decision. ha ha The only reason I'm keeping a reduced rate of prodiamine in the mix is because I'm thinking of it as my failsafe.


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## Bombers

JayGo said:


> @Bombers, very cool. So just to check my math, at the 7oz/acre/year, you're talking about .16oz/1k/year. If that's right, then you're doing four apps of .04oz/1K?
> 
> I'm doing the same "cocktail"....esplanade, simazine, and prodiamine. This'll be the very first season I'll be using something other than prodiamine/dithiopyr. It's worked fantastically for me for the last 7 or 8 years, so I'm a bit reluctant to switch; however, I have read enough stuff to believe that switching to/rotating a new a.i. might be in my best interest.
> 
> Great to hear it's working for you. Hope I don't regret my decision. ha ha The only reason I'm keeping a reduced rate of prodiamine in the mix is because I'm thinking of it as my failsafe.


Correct, that's the rate breakdown I'm doing for 1k. I'm also doing a reduced rate for simazine after reading more about it having an effect on green-up and yellowing of turf. I'm forgoing it on my 2nd spring app and see how the other AIs works out until Fall.


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## JayGo

@Bombers
Man, our plans really do look eerily similar. Ha ha
I'm also doing a reduced Simazine rate for the same reasons, but I do reduced rates of EVERYTHING anyway; especially with simazine & indaziflam since they're new to me.


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## UltimateLawn

I dropped Simazine and Specticle Flo Indaziflam - both in the Fall. I've opted to skip spring pre-emergent apps entirely as control so far is really good. I'm hoping it helps things green up faster. Last year, I think my green-up was delayed after two fall and two spring pre-emergent apps.


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## Ware

UltimateLawn said:


> I dropped Simazine and Specticle Flo Indaziflam - both in the Fall. I've opted to skip spring pre-emergent apps entirely as control so far is really good. I'm hoping it helps things green up faster. Last year, I think my green-up was delayed after two fall and two spring pre-emergent apps.


Not a good idea. Fall pre-e apps are for winter weeds. Spring pre-e apps are for summer weeds. Your fall apps aren't going to carry you through the summer.


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## UltimateLawn

Thanks @Ware.

Yep...I thought about that as well, but my summer weed volumes were low last summer. We'll see how things go, but I'm hoping that there will only be some spot weeds and I'll just do some manual pulls or spot post-sprays.

Of course, if it is a summer weed explosion, I guess I'll learn from that outcome as well.


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## Ware

UltimateLawn said:


> Thanks @Ware.
> 
> Yep...I thought about that as well, but my summer weed volumes were low last summer. We'll see how things go, but I'm hoping that there will only be some spot weeds and I'll just do some manual pulls or spot post-sprays.
> 
> Of course, if it is a summer weed explosion, I guess I'll learn from that outcome as well.


Have you considered that your weed volumes were low last summer because you made the two spring pre-e apps?

What you are proposing is sort of like saying you wore your seatbelt last summer and you weren't injured in any serious accidents, so you're not going to wear one this summer.

It's your lawn, but unfortunately you are moving in the wrong direction here. A good pre-e strategy is key to year round weed control. The longer you maintain a solid pre-e regimen, the less weeds you will have.

Best of luck though. :thumbsup:


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## Mikeyp_1284

Anyone have any idea what this is. I've put down prodiamine, Simazine and indaziflam and have this coming up in a few spots. It's coming in about where I had some buttonweed last year. Does this look like buttonweed?


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## Redtwin

It's just sprouting so hard to ID. I'm thinking maybe plantain? It is a perennial so pre-ems will have little to no effect on them.


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## Mikeyp_1284

Redtwin said:


> It's just sprouting so hard to ID. I'm thinking maybe plantain? It is a perennial so pre-ems will have little to no effect on them.


Thanks. That's what the picture this app said it was. Before it proceeded to give me three different answers the next three times I took a pic of it.


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## Redtwin

Once it fully sprouts and starts shooting off seeds or flowers it will be easier to ID. I'm sure any broadleaf product would work on it though.


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