# Can't seem to cut the runners



## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

My runners are leaving a pretty ugly pattern on the lawn. Seems like the reel won't pick them up and the drum keeps pushing them down. Any advice on how to handle this? The HOC is 1/2 inch. I tried using a 10 blade and a 6 blade to no avail. Verified of course they cut paper. Although it's a struggle because when the swardman cuts paper, it also locks up frequently.


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## TN Hawkeye (May 7, 2018)

Austinite said:


> My runners are leaving a pretty ugly pattern on the lawn. Seems like the reel won't pick them up and the drum keeps pushing them down. Any advice on how to handle this? The HOC is 1/2 inch. I tried using a 10 blade and a 6 blade to no avail. Verified of course they cut paper. Although it's a struggle because when the swardman cuts paper, it also locks up frequently.


I noticed that in your latest video. Could you set the Timemaster down really low and see if it will lift and cut them?


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## tblood (Aug 7, 2018)

I had a little bit of success using the scarrifier attachment, then setting the HOC high, performing multiple passes while lowering the HOC. I still couldn't cut them in the low spots of my yard, though. Where everything was level, I was able to cut them fine.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

How long have you been cutting at 1/2 inch? How level is that area of grass? I seem to remember I had this issue last year when I first dropped my HOC to 1/2 inch but I just kept cutting it every 3 days and eventually it corrected itself.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Lawn is pretty level. A few dips but nothing major. Been cutting it at half inch for about 2 weeks now, maybe 3.

Toro Timemaster can't touch half inch stuff.


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## tcorbitt20 (Aug 31, 2018)

I would think verticutting would take care of that


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

tcorbitt20 said:


> I would think verticutting would take care of that


Yeah I real verticutter would, unfortunately the Swardman verticutter is what caused this to begin with. A slice seeder would work great but I can't find one anywhere for rent since it's uncommon to overseed warm season grass.

I may have to tackle them one by one. Really a bummer but I dont see any other way. Thanks for all the input!


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## w0lfe (Mar 19, 2018)

Would a quick scalp reset those?


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

w0lfe said:


> Would a quick scalp reset those?


Yup, I think that's the solution, go lower than 1/2 inch so you can get those runners any new ones will grow lower than now.


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## tblood (Aug 7, 2018)

I took mine down to 1/4" and still have some. The green stuff is growing super low and it looks good close up, but the farther away you get, the browner the lawn looks. I have been maintaining at about 3/8" since I scalped.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

erdons said:


> w0lfe said:
> 
> 
> > Would a quick scalp reset those?
> ...


No that actually doesnt work. It's something with the swardman. Maybe other mowers can do it but not the swardman, it will not pick them up, not even at the 0" mark. Both Edwin and Electra failed at this.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Austinite said:


> erdons said:
> 
> 
> > w0lfe said:
> ...


Very interesting, my $60 McLane beater was able to fix the issue as soon as I dropped to the lowest possible setting. Hopefully someone else with a swardman can chime in.


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## thesouthernreelmower (Aug 28, 2018)

I would use a string trimmer


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## datcope (Oct 29, 2018)

Not an expert, but aren't the runners on top of the grass evidence that they have no where to run (compacted soil)?


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Looking back at the pictures that is the highest looking 1/2 inch hoc I have seen.


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## gijoe4500 (Mar 17, 2017)

To tackle the runners I had going on like that, I raked the yard with a steel tine leaf rack to "fluff" the runners, then mowed over them with my McLane. Worked out pretty well. Before raking, they wouldn't be picked up by the reel.


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## tblood (Aug 7, 2018)

datcope said:


> Not an expert, but aren't the runners on top of the grass evidence that they have no where to run (compacted soil)?


In my case, I just got his house, and the previous owner kept the grass cut high, and apparently never did anything else to it. While it is true that mine had nowhere to run, compaction isn't the main issue. The grass was super thick and had never been verticut, so the runners were tangled and growing on top of each other. I pulled some runners by hand that were 6 and 8 feet long. The weeds I pulled last fall had hardly any dirt in the roots and weren't growing in the ground, just in the tangled mess of grass.

I scalped the front yard down to 1" a few weeks ago. I had a pile of clippings and runners 10 feet around and almost 5 feet high from about 1500 square feet of lawn. I ran the verticutter cartridge through it and almost doubled the pile. Then I scalped what remained down to 1/4". The runners were still present. I have since run the scarrifier attachment over the lawn and progressively lowered the HOC, but it still doesn't get all of them. I am just going to maintain at 3/8" until everything is at that height, then try scalping again.

I am using a Swardman.


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## Spammage (Apr 30, 2017)

gijoe4500 said:


> To tackle the runners I had going on like that, I raked the yard with a steel tine leaf rack to "fluff" the runners, then mowed over them with my McLane. Worked out pretty well. Before raking, they wouldn't be picked up by the reel.


This would be my suggestion too.


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## XLT_66 (Jul 17, 2018)

I'm curious if that Flex you sold with the groomer would have handled this without issue. I can see a groomer pulling those up for cutting. Then again, I've never used a mower with a groomer...though I do wish I would have bought your Flex.

That aside, I like the idea of using a flexible leaf rake and roughing the area up as best you can to fluff the runners above the canopy. Hard to tell if it'll work since the roller will push them back down but ya never know.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

erdons said:


> Looking back at the pictures that is the highest looking 1/2 inch hoc I have seen.


 It's 1/2 inch. Angle probably tricking your eyes but I measured. Looks that way likely because of runners floating on top.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

XLT_66 said:


> I'm curious if that Flex you sold with the groomer would have handled this without issue. I can see a groomer pulling those up for cutting. Then again, I've never used a mower with a groomer...though I do wish I would have bought your Flex.
> 
> That aside, I like the idea of using a flexible leaf rake and roughing the area up as best you can to fluff the runners above the canopy. Hard to tell if it'll work since the roller will push them back down but ya never know.


Yeah I might rake it up a bit to get them to stand up. I wish I never used the Swardman Verticutter. No issues before that.


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## J_nick (Jan 28, 2017)

Once your yard thickens up you probably won't have a problem with it. I get those runners when I verticut mid season but they only last a couple mows.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Thanks @J_nick ! I'll be patient and give it more time.


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## erdons (Apr 3, 2018)

Austinite said:


> erdons said:
> 
> 
> > Looking back at the pictures that is the highest looking 1/2 inch hoc I have seen.
> ...


Yea most likely, I think as others have suggested try raking the lawn it will probably lift them up, I think the issue will correct itself as the season goes and your lawn thickens up.


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## Austinite (Oct 4, 2018)

Will do. Thanks @erdons !


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## SCGrassMan (Dec 17, 2017)

I'd lift them up with the landscaping blade and cut them, if you have one. If not I'd add to the list - you need one if you're gonna go low.


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## sportsman10 (Feb 25, 2019)

My first thought was to try raking a small area with a couple different types of rakes (as others mentioned)to see if you can get them to stand up to then cut them. That way you can see what works and what will be worth your time. I haven't seen anyone mention this yet but those SunJoe/Greenworks electric dethatchers seems to be quite agressive on runners and thatch. I think they are only ~$100 and have tines that dig up up the thatch layer quite well. That may be worth a shot to see if they grab the runners. They are height-adjustable so you could try to slowly lower it until you get the runners without digging up too much of your good turf. Since your on the PGR train, I imagine this problem will end just as soon as you get the runners cut. :thumbup: 
https://www.amazon.com/Greenworks-14-Inch-Corded-Dethatcher-27022/dp/B0030BG1HM
https://www.amazon.com/Sun-Joe-AJ801E-Dethatcher-Collection/dp/B01FEATL2I


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## Ecks from Tex (Apr 26, 2018)

Let them grow and have a thicker lawn in a month.


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## Reelrollers (Feb 6, 2018)

I think the challenge with runners being pulled up has to do with the density of your turf. Runners are just that, above ground roots seeking sun. They "run" to open parts of the turf. Once they encounter density in the turf, they stop running so much and focus their energy on establishing themselves in the turf and then producing vertical grass.

I believe in reading over the post, that these runners which are being pulled up are runners still filling in open spaces that haven't yet "hit density" and become rooted. If rooted, even with the dull verticutter these roots would be cut from sheer power. But, because these runners aren't yet rooted, they are pulling up and their only significant grip on the turf is the origination point of the runner.

In speaking with some pro's, a verticutter is useful when the turf is very thick, so thick that it's impacting its own growth. When you use a verticutter on this super thick/ dense turf the runners are anchored all the way across, making grass, and the dull verticutter even cuts them because they are anchored on each side of the blade into the turf.

I believe a sharp bladed verticutter would be beneficial, but in reality it would dull in an hour of use because of the soil contact. Think of a chainsaw when you hit dirt, it goes dull quick. In speaking with Swardman, that is why they don't put a sharp edge on the verticutter, it would be dull in a very short time of use and isn't needed when the runners are anchored.


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## Brackin4au (Jun 13, 2018)

Reelrollers said:


> I think the challenge with runners being pulled up has to do with the density of your turf. Runners are just that, above ground roots seeking sun. They "run" to open parts of the turf. Once they encounter density in the turf, they stop running so much and focus their energy on establishing themselves in the turf and then producing vertical grass.
> 
> I believe in reading over the post, that these runners which are being pulled up are runners still filling in open spaces that haven't yet "hit density" and become rooted. If rooted, even with the dull verticutter these roots would be cut from sheer power. But, because these runners aren't yet rooted, they are pulling up and their only significant grip on the turf is the origination point of the runner.
> 
> ...


Good info @Reelrollers :thumbup:


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## jeffiee (Aug 11, 2020)

Reelrollers said:


> I think the challenge with runners being pulled up has to do with the density of your turf. Runners are just that, above ground roots seeking sun. They "run" to open parts of the turf. Once they encounter density in the turf, they stop running so much and focus their energy on establishing themselves in the turf and then producing vertical grass.
> 
> I believe in reading over the post, that these runners which are being pulled up are runners still filling in open spaces that haven't yet "hit density" and become rooted. If rooted, even with the dull verticutter these roots would be cut from sheer power. But, because these runners aren't yet rooted, they are pulling up and their only significant grip on the turf is the origination point of the runner.
> 
> ...


Great post, this answered my question. I have celebration bermuda and it is really really thick and just recently dethatched and have runners all of the place. I will be investing in a verticutter. I remember seeing a football team in Florida saying you need to verticut because celebration is so aggressive and thick.


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