# Bahia salad to bermuda - getting started help



## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

I built this house 3 years ago in Central Florida. At the time, I did nothing with the lawn. The front was mostly fill dirt. Over the last year or so I've thrown some bahia seed at it hoping to just get it green to no avail. Time to start renovating it! Or fixing it? Both seem to imply it was good at one point - which it wasn't.

I'm a bit lost on where to start. Here is what I am up against:

The yard is sloped down. My house sits several feet below the road so there are erosion issues. 
I have no in ground irrigation.
It is a medium sized front yard - probably 1/4 acre or so more or less.

So the questions I have:

Should I nuke the front yard with roundup or celsius and seed?
Should I seed over the salad patch I have and apply celsius after the bermuda starts to come up?
Do I need irrigation? I know it is preferred but can I get by without it and just use hoses/sprinklers?
How can I control the erosion on the front slope while it is seeded? Tacky straw or some sort of blanket would be better?
Should I attempt to fix the current eroded/washed out areas before seeding or wait until grass is established and slowly level it out?
Seed - there seem to be so many to choose from - what would work best for Central Florida?

I tried searching but most of the renos I saw were different than what I am dealing with. Any help is much appreciated!


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

Snapped a quick pic with the drone to show the layout. Total sqr/ft is right at 8k. @Colonel K0rn Would love to get y our input.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I'm more confused by the lack of success with Bahia than anything else in your post. Are you dead set against cultivating Bahia?


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@ionicatoms Yeah I would prefer Bermuda - I plan on selling this house in ~3 years and really want the curb appeal - the bahia is fine in some areas but just overrun with weeds in others and the wash out didn't help, either.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

When I lived in Tampa, I converted my Argentine Bahia to Bermuda. I sprayed the Bahia with glyphosate and several weeks later had it tilled by a contractor who used a tractor with a PTO-driven roto-tiller. I think the smaller walk-behind tillers might not have worked as well. I then installed a sprinkler system and sprigged the Bermuda.

My dad converted several acres of Pensacola Bahia pasture to cropland just by plowing it up... no chemicals involved.

I think you should consider installing a sprinkler system, and assuming you do the work, you should make money on this improvement when you sell the house.

After we sold our house, the new owners converted it back because they didn't know Bermuda's requirements and care. Most people will try to maintain their lawn like their neighbors. Once a week at 3 inch HOC is not going to be pretty. Although I am a certified Bermuda grass nut, I think you should consider some other cultivar such as one of the zoysias, especially if your goal is to make money. If the new owner has a reel mower and is willing to mow twice a week, Bermuda would be a good choice.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I gotcha. Well I'm not a Bermuda guy, so can't offer much advice on that topic. Sorry.

For a three year window, with curb appeal being the main objective, I would probably do sod and an irrigation system.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@LoCutt Thanks for the feedback! I am not completely set on Bermuda and Zoysia is certainly okay by me. Will Zoysia choke out the bahia/weeds? I have access to a tiller and have no problems tilling the entire yard.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

Rabble said:


> Will Zoysia choke out the bahia/weeds?


Since there are several cultivars, the question is difficult especially in light of the several new zoysia cultivars. Almost all of my zoysia experience is with Emerald which will definitely squeeze out most competitors. I do have some knowledge of Zorro which is a great grass for shady areas. It can be mowed with a reel or rotary. A disadvantage of the zoysias is their relatively slow growth rate, but once established this becomes an advantage assuming lawn maintenance is not a passion.

Most of this ultimately becomes personal preference.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@LoCutt I am wondering if my objective should be to get rid of the weeds and have a healthy argentine bahia yard - I like working in the yard and having it look good, but it seems like there would be quite a bit of hands on maintenance (weekly if not more) for some of these grass types beyond just mowing/watering.

Which of the cultivars, outside of bahia, are lower maintenance ?


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## rjw0283 (May 11, 2020)

Centipede


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

CitraBlue is also low maintenance.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

ProVista is another one that is low maintenance. AND you can spray glyphosate on it.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@ionicatoms Thanks for the suggestions - I have a few irrigation companies coming out to give me a quote - I started looking into doing it myself and its a bit beyond what I'd like to tackle


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Rabble said:


> @ionicatoms Thanks for the suggestions - I have a few irrigation companies coming out to give me a quote - I started looking into doing it myself and its a bit beyond what I'd like to tackle


I agree with that! It's a big project. I would suggest 5" pop up heights if you decide to cultivate anything that is cut high for awesome appearance (Bahia or St. Aug.)

See discussion at 15:55 for details. 





I doing have the high popups and it's annoying.


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## LoCutt (Jul 29, 2019)

Argentine (like its brother Pensacola) is a tough grass to mow (it dulls the blades quickly) and its color is not as deep as usual from Bermuda or zoysia. But it's very drought tolerant. At the right time of year, mine would literally poke out seed heads two feet tall overnight. Overall I'd say its best characteristic is its tolerance to weather and maintenance. All of this says it'll survive with little care. You may prefer the look to other grasses-- we are talking opinions here.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@ionicatoms Irrigation is going in about 4 weeks from now (irrigation guy is booked solid) I started pricing sod / plugs and with such a large area, it may be out of my budget. What would you suggest if I need to seed the lawn?


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

For low maintenance and seeded, I guess centipede would be my first choice. Curb appeal should be good. Check the pH of your soil and see if it's low enough to get good centipede.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> For low maintenance and seeded, I guess centipede would be my first choice. Curb appeal should be good. Check the pH of your soil and see if it's low enough to get good centipede.


Im torn between that and Zoysia.. what are the downsides to Zoysia?


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Rabble said:


> What are the downsides to Zoysia?


None compared to centipede, except for maybe price.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

I don't know about down in your area, but here the zoysia is slow to come out of dormancy. It can be prone to thatch if you cut it high. I'm not sure how often you have to cut it. But it can look pretty dang awesome if you're looking for something distinctive. You better solicit some more help on selecting a particular zoysia variety, as some of them need to be reel cut.

I assume zoysia is more prone to fungus than centipede. Don't know for sure.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Zoysia builds thatch and as such can be more prone to fungus but other than being low maintenance, I don't see many benefits of centipede.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

Redtwin said:


> Zoysia builds thatch and as such can be more prone to fungus but other than being low maintenance, I don't see many benefits of centipede.


What are your thoughts on a low maintenance turf grass for the Central Florida area? I'm trying to keep cost lower as I have a larger area to cover.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

I'm in zone 9A


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

Rabble said:


> Redtwin said:
> 
> 
> > Zoysia builds thatch and as such can be more prone to fungus but other than being low maintenance, I don't see many benefits of centipede.
> ...


My $.02 worth...

If you're on a super tight budget just get your bahia grass in better shape by mowing it often. Mow it high and mow it often. On the other hand, if you have some budget, I would go with sod. The reason I'm against Centipede is that I had a SA/Centipede mix in my front that I had looking pretty decent. It flooded a couple of times during hurricanes and never really recovered and was getting taken over by tough weeds that I could not spray without damaging the good stuff. I ripped it out and put down Empire. I have Tifway 419 in the back. I very much prefer the 419 but my neighbor has Empire. The Empire and 419 don't play well together. The Empire will straight up choke out everything. It competes well against my 419 in the back. One of the reason I will only do Bermuda or Zoysia is because Torpedograss is all over my area. I need a grass type that I can spray with Quinclorac to control torpedograss. If that's not a problem in your area then you may have more options.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

Redtwin said:


> Rabble said:
> 
> 
> > Redtwin said:
> ...


My biggest problem is sand spurs and not being able to put down anything on the bahia to clear up the weeds. My budget isn't super super tight but I also don't want to spend ~4k-6k+ on sod. If I had to choose, I would pick something that required more maintenance than it did initial cost. I have the time to put into it. I'm not sure how prevalent torpedograss is here.


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## 12620 (Oct 2, 2020)

@Rabble - I currently have the Bahia/Bermuda salad in my back yard, and I'm only one solid year in to lawn care. My experience is Bahia has some of the best resistance to bugs and disease, but you will have ugly seedheads from later spring to mid summer. Mowing twice a week in summer will keep that to a minimum, but the seedheads shoot up fast. Now as far as herbicides, you can put down a few different pre-emergents (personally I think prodiamine/dithiopyr in spring, isoxaben in the fall. I can hit most of my other broadleafs with Roundup or image (both for Southern Lawns). There may be a few other weeds that require more targeted herbicides, but Bahia can also bounce back because of its deep root structure. You can always throw down some cheaper Pensacola Bahia seed in any bare spots. I only had a spot of torpedo grass in my lawn because I added some topsoil from Lowe's that probably contained some of those weed seeds. The other thing about Bahia is you wouldn't have to water it but once a month, maybe.

I will say though, if you have an irrigation system being put in, I suggest St. Augustine, as I think it's a step above Bahia for a Florida lawn. Zoysia and Bermuda don't look as good with a rotary cut or unlevel lawn and are much higher maintenance.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

@thundergunexpress @Redtwin Thoughts on making plugs from sod? I'm not intentionally trying to be too cheap, but I have searched the forum and seen that some folks have done it with success. If I go that route, what would optimize my chances for success as far as fert/bio stims?


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## 12620 (Oct 2, 2020)

I'll toss that question to @ionicatoms and his experience with plugs. I know a few on here have more knowledge and experience on bio-stimulants and establishing plugs, so I'll let them answer that piece also. I'd assume there's more of a weed pressure going with plugs instead of sod and you may have a lesser success rate of establishment. But with a lot of proper care, it could work, but I'm not sure which would be the more costly in the end if three years is your mark.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

There are a lot of guys who will make plugs from sod. Heck, some guys will throw the sod into a wood chipper to use as sprigging material. I would do either of those before thinking of seeding. I've only plugged/sprigged small areas so I'm not an expert. If you choose bermuda, it will spread like crazy from plugs or sprigs.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

I think this reaffirms my thoughts on moving towards plugging with sod.. may take longer to get established but seems to balance cost vs return better


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Hey @Rabble did you check out the Tifton varieties of Bahia? These might make a better looking lawn that the Pensacola or Argentina varieties.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> Hey @Rabble did you check out the Tifton varieties of Bahia? These might make a better looking lawn that the Pensacola or Argentina varieties.


I've not - I really don't like the look and feel of bahia. I wish I knew then what I know now when I was initially working on this house.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Rabble said:


> I wish I knew then what I know now when I was initially working on this house.


Don't sweat it. My attitude is every lawn is different, with unique challenges, and in a unique point in its lifecycle. It's a little too easy to compare one lawn to another in terms of appearance without appreciating the challenges that are unique and make one lawn different from another. I like to focus on year-over-year improvement; just keep pushing in a direction that you're excited about and you'll get there in time.

What variety of grass did you decide to go with for making plugs from sod?


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> Rabble said:
> 
> 
> > I wish I knew then what I know now when I was initially working on this house.
> ...


I'll be ordering ProVista St Augustine


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

Rabble said:


> I'll be ordering ProVista St Augustine


Great choice! Curb appeal will be very good; I'd gladly buy a house with ProVista SA. I want to strangle the guy who owned this place before me for throwing common bermuda seed all over the yard!


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> Rabble said:
> 
> 
> > I'll be ordering ProVista St Augustine
> ...


I started looking at the actual grass in this yard.. there is Bahia, common bermuda and torpedo ... I am not good at identifying the weeds, yet.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

The great thing about ProVista is the glyphosate tolerance. You will be able to do a blanket spray maybe twice a year and clean up most of the weeds. At least that's my impression of how it can be with ProVista.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> The great thing about ProVista is the glyphosate tolerance. You will be able to do a blanket spray maybe twice a year and clean up most of the weeds. At least that's my impression of how it can be with ProVista.


Yeah thats one of the reasons I chose it.. I will do a new post when I get all the work done. I have 18 yards of dirt getting delivered next week to level this out - Irrigation guy on April 14th and then sod coming that same week.. lts of work but it should hopefully go over well. Yard is full sun with 1 small tree. I hope it fills in by next year.


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

If you have the budget, I suggest you adopt some level of a preventive insecticide and fungicide plan to go along with your watering and fertilizing. You could say this is optional, but remember that ProVista is a slow grower, so whatever setback you encounter will take extra time to recover from.


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## Rabble (Mar 10, 2021)

ionicatoms said:


> If you have the budget, I suggest you adopt some level of a preventive insecticide and fungicide plan to go along with your watering and fertilizing. You could say this is optional, but remember that ProVista is a slow grower, so whatever setback you encounter will take extra time to recover from.


What do you suggest for fungicide and insecticide? I was gonna put a pre-emergent down and some starter fert but that was about it for the first little bit


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## ionicatoms (Mar 8, 2020)

@Rabble

I suggest skipping the pre-emergents prodiamine/dithiopyr, unless you are thinking isoxaben (I think you only have to wait for root establishment in that case -- check all labels carefully). See this video for LCN's explanation.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g6x4HPhWZs&t=1237s[/media]

As for insecticide, bifenthrin is probably a good choice starting out. Fungicide, I would suspect two apps of azoxystrobin about 4 weeks apart right after you lay the sod, and then come back and hit it again with another two apps starting in September or early October. The fall app could be a mix of propiconazole and azoxystrobin if you want to minimize fungicide resistance -- you've got plenty of time to think that over.


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