# Killing Bermuda in St Augustine with Dismiss



## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

I've heard that this is a near impossible task. So i'm going to devote everyday to pull a little bit out of the grass each time. Not sure if this is a waste of time or not though.

What i've noticed is that Dismiss does injure the Bermuda in certain places.

Am thinking in the areas where the Bermuda is taller that the St. Aug. I would mark those areas off. Then do a light spritz with full dose dismiss. Then again the following week. Thinking that the light spritz would only or mostly hit the bermuda and not the St Aug which is trying to come up from underneath. Do you guys think this is a bad idea? Or is is better to just use round-up and either replug or sod that area?


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## deeevo (Jun 18, 2018)

Better off to round up and re-sod. Dismiss will not solve the problem. Its a never ending battle and I just accept it. Eventually I will re-sod with Zoysia and not St. Aug. I have Zoysia in the back yard and Bermuda doesn't attempt to invade it because it is so dense.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

I use Dismiss in my Bermuda to work on green kyllinga. It doesn't phase the Bermuda at the label rate even in the heat of summer. YMMV...


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> I've heard that this is a near impossible task. So i'm going to devote everyday to pull a little bit out of the grass each time. Not sure if this is a waste of time or not though.
> 
> What i've noticed is that Dismiss does injure the Bermuda in certain places.
> 
> Am thinking in the areas where the Bermuda is taller that the St. Aug. I would mark those areas off. Then do a light spritz with full dose dismiss. Then again the following week. Thinking that the light spritz would only or mostly hit the bermuda and not the St Aug which is trying to come up from underneath. Do you guys think this is a bad idea? Or is is better to just use round-up and either replug or sod that area?


Dismiss bad idea. This will not work, even roundup would probably need three apps to get it all.

What I'm trying to accomplish is to have very little Bermuda and let the st Augustine win the battle.

So I cut at 3.5 
Water about once a week deeply
I started spraying ethousmate+ atrazine which is a Bermuda suppressant when sprayed at label rates. I update in my journal of the progress.

Good luck


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## Movingshrub (Jun 12, 2017)

@Greendoc Ethofumesate + Atrazine to damage bermuda in st aug?


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

@CenlaLowell So far the only 2 products I've found to contain Ethofumesate are:

1) Poa Constrictor Herbacide - Discontinued (but could probably find somewhere online)
and
2) Prograss EC Herbacide - Expensive (but worth it if it works)

Definitely curious to hear of any progress made with it.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Movingshrub said:


> @Greendoc Ethofumesate + Atrazine to damage bermuda in st aug?


Not a 100% sure thing. Better to ask why is the Bermuda so aggressive where the St Augustine is wanted. In many cases, it is better to embrace the Bermuda and go reel low.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> @CenlaLowell So far the only 2 products I've found to contain Ethofumesate are:
> 
> 1) Poa Constrictor Herbacide - Discontinued (but could probably find somewhere online)
> and
> ...


I purchase this stuff http://m.pestrong.com/site/pestrongmobile/default?orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=Rightline&submit_search=Go&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pestrong.com%2Fsearch.php#2525

@Greendoc is right definitely not 100% but this is the best idea I could find without killing my st Augustine as well. Remember it won't kill it just suppress.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

According to https://www.crabgrasslawn.com/st-augustine-grass-vs-bermuda-grass/

It looks like Bermuda grass needs sun all day and is not shade tolerant. (will put up a canopy if necessary)
Unfortunately it looks like the Bermuda will do well the the amount of water given to st. augustine. But Bermuda will do terrible in standing water and waterlogged situations.

I'm going to go ahead and mow at a height of 4.5 inches to try to shade and/or crowd it out. I'm not getting much growth now as the Bermuda is covering up the St. Aug. Will probably just measure the height of the St.Aug sitting underneath the bermuda and cut to that height in the worst areas. Then keep measuring each time i mow.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Other modality I can suggest, is to cut your N P and K. Fertilizing St Augustine till it looks blue is sufis adequate nutrients to grow some vigorous Bermuda. I apply no more than 2 lbs N per year or1/6 th lb per month. What you hear about and see online concerning fertilizer rates will give you SA that looks blue and will grow some nice Bermuda.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Thanks @Greendoc 
2lbs per year seems fairly doable. Doesn't seem like it would do much for the lawn, but i guess a little goes a long way. I planned on 6 applications this year. But have already applied .75lbs/1k 2 days ago because the grass looked very distressed. Below was my report from december.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I do not expect a warm season grass to look good in the winter. I also do not push lawns hard during the winter months. 0.75 lb N is a whopping high rate to me.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Definitely take your word for it and will redo my calendar to mimic that change for the upcoming year. Today the average soil temps were at 71 degrees. 5 day average of 61 degrees so thought it would be okay. Next app will be April 1st and will go down to .25lbs. Starting in 2021 will do 8 apps of .25lbs/1k. Do you apply the N separate from P and K ? (meaning different bag/company)


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

I apply NPK as a complete fertilizer. In fact, barring the unusual circumstance of soil having high levels of available P and K, most lawns benefit from a 1-1-1 ratio fertilizer. Most heavily promoted turf fertilizers are lacking either P or K. I do not want to see fertilizer on a warm season grass until daytime temps are consistently above 80.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Thanks for the info. Yeah you are spot on with the ratio as well, as that is what is recommended by University of Florida. Especially considering most of my lawn is floratam. I do realize however that there is a difference between what is on a piece of paper and what actually works well.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

But yeah, as you can see from the image above. The fertilization is very infrequent, so am not sure how they are getting away with that. Then again its a maintenance calendar and not a repair calendar as i see no mention of how to get rid of bermuda grass in it.

We just had a major torrential down pour last night so hopefully that sets the bermuda back a bit (=


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

From the "Trimec Southern" herbacide label:

"Bermuda grass and bentgrass are moderately sensitive to 2,4-D."

Makes me wonder what a combination of:
1) Trimec Southern
2) Atrazine (heavy dose)
3) Ethofumesate

would do to the Bermuda grass (especially right after a heavy rainfall)? (hopefully this would not kill the St. Aug.)


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> From the "Trimec Southern" herbacide label:
> 
> "Bermuda grass and bentgrass are moderately sensitive to 2,4-D."
> 
> ...


From my understanding 24-D is not to be used on St Augustine turf


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Skip the Trimec Southern. The MCPP in it fries St Augustine. I did it. Label rate, browned out SA. Turned Centipede purple then brown. Atrazine + Ethofumesate then repeated applications of Ethofumesate according to label directions. The Bermuda suppression program is not a one shot thing.


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## Symbiont01 (Nov 20, 2018)

Mow as high as possible. It wont get rid of the Bermuda completely, but it will favor the St Augustine so that it can crowd it out well. Use your suppression herbicides as others have suggested, but also know that 2,4-D will kill St Augustine if used over certain levels and Bermuda just doesnt care about 2,4-D at all so there is no reason to use it for the purpose of killing Bermuda. Mowing high alone has helped my St Augustine backyard with Bermuda invasion, so it might work for you.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Skip the Trimec Southern. The MCPP in it fries St Augustine. I did it. Label rate, browned out SA. Turned Centipede purple then brown. Atrazine + Ethofumesate then repeated applications of Ethofumesate according to label directions. The Bermuda suppression program is not a one shot thing.


Although domyown.com has it listed as safe to use on St. Aug. It is not for use on Floratam, which is a bit of carelessness on my part. The studies that were done show that 2,4-D when mixed with mecoprop would yellow St. Aug with a full recovery expected. This also assumes that this is placed on healthy turf. However they also found that the mixture of 2,4-D with mecoprop would actually kill the Floratam variety, and again all other varieties would be yellowed with recovery expected. 2,4-D by itself does not kill Floratam (when used within specified quantities. most what i read mentions going with the low dose), but may yellow it. Which is why you will see it in weed killers that say "use of Floratm" such as purple roundup, and ortho versions of the product. From what i understand, adding some Nitrogen and/or Iron to any mixture which is said to stunt the grown grass will help prevent said damage. It makes sense that with the yellowing that would occur on the non-Floratam variety, should Atrazine + Ethofumesate be added, then lawn would have even more extra heavy lifting to do.

I assume when you say browned out the St. Aug, you mean killed it. Well i was planning to buy some myself as it is $39 on amazon, but think i will hold off for now, and like you say stick with Atrazine , and will add the Ethofumesate depending on how it goes.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> @CenlaLowell So far the only 2 products I've found to contain Ethofumesate are:
> 
> 1) Poa Constrictor Herbacide - Discontinued (but could probably find somewhere online)
> and
> ...


I use this
http://m.pestrong.com/site/pestrongmobile/default?orderby=position&orderway=desc&search_query=Rightline&submit_search=Go&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pestrong.com%2Fsearch.php#2613

Progress was definitely seen. Look in my Bermuda journal I will update more this year.

The amount of Bermuda I have this is probably a multi year project like leveling is


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Do you pull any of the bermuda? One of my goals is to spend like 5-10min everyday for a year pulling out some bemuda. But I've only got 1/4 acre and it's not everywhere.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

kb02gt said:


> Greendoc said:
> 
> 
> > Skip the Trimec Southern. The MCPP in it fries St Augustine. I did it. Label rate, browned out SA. Turned Centipede purple then brown. Atrazine + Ethofumesate then repeated applications of Ethofumesate according to label directions. The Bermuda suppression program is not a one shot thing.
> ...


I consider Mecoprop strictly a cool season herbicide. Addition to Three Way is mostly because of its specific effectiveness on cool season varieties of clover. You are absolutely right about 24D. If anything, I have used 24D without Mecoprop or any other herbicide besides Dicamba with high safety to most warm season grasses. If I wanted to stress a warm season grass, I would select something with MCPA and Mecoprop. Not sure what type of St Augustine I have around town, I just know it reacts adversely to Trimec Southern.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

kb02gt said:


> Do you pull any of the bermuda? One of my goals is to spend like 5-10min everyday for a year pulling out some bemuda. But I've only got 1/4 acre and it's not everywhere.


No, this absolutely will not work


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Hmmmmmm, the other thing is that most likely the rhizomes under the ground will still be alive. So ineed if you have a huge yard, its a no go. I'm pulling some of mine so hopefully this gives the st Aug a headstart. Will get as many rhizomes as possible.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

It appears Bermuda is also sensitive to a product called "Headway G" at more than 3/lbs/1000. "Headway G" is a combination of Azoxystrobin and Propoconozol. Group 11 and group 3 fungicides respectively.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

St Augustine does not react well to Propiconazole either.


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## Stellar P (Apr 13, 2018)

I will never win my battle.

- SA is too sensitive to use a herbicide that will kill Bermuda. So I tried to crowd it out with a 4" HOC. 
- My high HOC reduces airflow and combined with constant high humidity, disease is almost guaranteed, even with a fungicide treatment. Bermuda is unaffected by my propiconazole treatments either.
- I lower my HOC to reduce disease pressure, and now that promotes better growth standards for Bermuda....

...and the world turns. Hopefully I can get this house sold early enough in the Spring, I can do a full renovation on the new yard with some shade tolerant bermuda and start looking at used reels! I'm so over SA.


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Greendoc said:


> St Augustine does not react well to Propiconazole either.


At what rate does the st Augustine show a negative effect??? I spray it and never noticed a problem. Now I'm wondering should I switch this product out.


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## Greendoc (Mar 24, 2018)

Above the low rate and in hot weather, warm season grasses can have problems with it. You may get away with it on St Augustine in cool weather. I cannot on low cut warm season grasses. Label warns about how Bermuda greens react to it.

I prefer Myclobutanil(Eagle 20 EW) for that class of fungicide. No temperature or height of cut restrictions


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Stellar P said:


> I will never win my battle.
> 
> - SA is too sensitive to use a herbicide that will kill Bermuda. So I tried to crowd it out with a 4" HOC.
> - My high HOC reduces airflow and combined with constant high humidity, disease is almost guaranteed, even with a fungicide treatment. Bermuda is unaffected by my propiconazole treatments either.
> ...


I understand your frustration. I cut mine at 3.5 because of the problems you listed.

Fungus is a problem with st Augustine I think no matter the HOC. I start a fungicide program from April to September.

Killing Bermuda is near impossible without glysophate. I use ethousmate+atrazine to produce suppression and with that my hope is that st Augustine will eventually win out.


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## Stellar P (Apr 13, 2018)

CenlaLowell said:


> I understand your frustration. I cut mine at 3.5 because of the problems you listed.
> 
> Fungus is a problem with st Augustine I think no matter the HOC. I start a fungicide program from April to September.
> 
> Killing Bermuda is near impossible without glysophate. I use ethousmate+atrazine to produce suppression and with that my hope is that st Augustine will eventually win out.


I'm going to mess around a little more with HOC this spring/early summer and see if I see a significant reduction in disease pressure. If I can get that to work, I guess I have to choose between Longer HOC + More Disease Pressure + Fungicide $/App vs Shorter HOC + Bermuda Pressure + Herbicide $/App. We cannot fully eradicate the Bermuda, so maybe the best option is to invest more in fungicide programs and crowd it out?


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## CenlaLowell (Apr 21, 2017)

Stellar P said:


> CenlaLowell said:
> 
> 
> > I understand your frustration. I cut mine at 3.5 because of the problems you listed.
> ...


Yeah, for the fungicide I have a bunch from eBay, but I normally will run

Sygenta abound (Axozystrobin)
Propiconazle
Prostar
Aramda

No matter the HOC of my yard I still catch fungus every season.

The suppression chemicals work but at a cost... I love experiments for the most part, so I'm doing it again


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

@CenlaLowell

Ive just read your killoff trial, which is really an awesome experiment your attempting. More knowledge about Bermuda and how it reacts to certain things in various conditions is always a good thing. Looking for to seeing the springtime results.

Just a thought. We know that Bermuda will die from lack of light. St Aug is much better than Bermuda in this area. I wonder how a large canopy/tarp (like the one people bring to the beach) would work, but only leaving 1 side of it open, just enough for it to only get either the morning or evening light. One thing I am going to do is just place the lid of a 5 gallon bucket on top of the bermuda/st Aug and see how long it takes the bermuda to die, and will the Bermuda and st Aug die at the same time. Just a couple ideas.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

@Greendoc

Had Eagle 20 sitting in my online shopping cart for a long long time, so went ahead and made the purchase after seeing your post. According to YouTube, Propoconozol won't harm the yard and it's the same stuff humans use. However, just 8 - 10 months ago before I even knew what pre-emergent was, i was blasting certain areas of my lawn with it. And after I did that the grass did look worse, however I did not attribute it the Propoconozol. After spraying the grass got even more yellow and had this sort of slimy look to it. Eventually it recovered after some time. Thought maybe it was the fungus coming on strong because the prop. did not kill it. Still not sure to this day. But now that you are mentioning it. Maybe it is best to stay away from the Propoconozol for good. As I am still learning I just cannot believe all the marketing hype that surrounds these products. When I first started taking care of the lawn I took the products and what they said on the label at face value. "Use on any grass type", "Kills fungus", "won't harm your lawn", "kills grubs", "gets rid of weeds" (and my grass). Now i am starting to know better.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Finally got a weed killer containing quinclorac. The idea here is to attempt a systemic kill on both the torpedo as well as the bermuda grass. Torpedo from what i understand will need repeat applications. I emptied and cleaning out 1 gallon vinegar containers which have hard plastic and a lid. I cut the bottoms off them, and placed the 1st one over just torpedo grass, and the 2nd over a combination of torpedo grass and bermuda. I'm not sure if it is clear in the picture but there is St. Augustine grass within the area as well. There are a few other photos where the torpedo grass is growing between some stones and that is where i will blatantly spray as there is no st. augustine in that particular area. This once beautiful area you are looking at is a result of spray a 2,4d mixed with mecoprop, that good i only did a blanket spray of the right side of the house. I've plugged about a 1/3 of the damage so far and will plug the rest this spring. I twisted back and forth until the gallon jug sank into the dirt covering up the weeds. Held the cap open and sprayed a lot of product into the jug then shut the cap. Really like that this product already had a colored dye to it.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Greendoc said:


> Above the low rate and in hot weather, warm season grasses can have problems with it. You may get away with it on St Augustine in cool weather. I cannot on low cut warm season grasses. Label warns about how Bermuda greens react to it.
> 
> I prefer Myclobutanil(Eagle 20 EW) for that class of fungicide. No temperature or height of cut restrictions


Just applied it to the lawn. Hopefully the neighbors will forgive me, lol. Had a very distinct odor to it. Applied at a rate of 1.25oz / 1000 / gal.

Do you think it makes sense to apply Azoxystrobin tomorrow at either the preventative or curative rate?


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Not sure if it's all in my head, but adding a bunch of atrazine to my lawn did make it easier to pull up the Bermuda. It's nearly effortless.

However I saw where @CenlaLowell added the combination of ethofumesate with atrazine which resulted in brown Bermuda.

At this point could the brown Bermuda be considered thatch? And would a liquid dethatcher work?

Or a dethatching rake with minimal space between the fins since we know the st aug roots are thicker than Bermuda? And we also know stunted Bermuda is easier to pull up.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Basically a longer version of this . . .


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Update: So the BioAdvanced Lawn Weed Crabgrass Killer has really dinged up the Torpedo grass which has now turned yellow. I am also seeing a blade of torpedo that has turned yellow on the outside of the planted bottle. Its only been 6 days since i made the application. However it looks like quinclorac is a product that takes upwards of 3-4 weeks to really see any damage. So will check back in a couple of weeks. Also wanted to added that one of the St. Aug stolons near one of the bottles doesn't look that good. Almost as if starting to dry up.

Unfortunately inside that bottle, the Bermuda has practically been drinking the stuff. And in the meantime the Bermuda has spread in my lawn. So i must do something now. Thinking of attempting to try adding glyphosate to that bottle. Also unfortunately it has been very windy like everyday for the past 2 weeks so has been difficult to do anything. With the Bermuda i have 2 options. 
1) Buy as many plugs as possible, and cut as high as possible. Then next year apply etho + atrazine as part of the program. If i do this., i'm thinking either Floratam or Bitter Blue since they are both the most aggressive. But I believe Bitter Blue can handle quinclorac (can't remember). Zoysia is also tempting for the backyard. 
or . . . 
2) Apply the etho+atrazine now, then plant the plugs. (this would be the more expensive option as well.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Another tool in the arsenal against Bermuda grass. Maybe.

From QualiPro Propiconazole 14.3 label:
"Bermudagrass can be sensitive to Quali-Pro Propiconazole 14.3. Do not exceed 4 fl. oz. per 1000 sq. ft.
every 30 days on any variety of bermudagrass. In Florida, do not apply Quali-Pro Propiconazole 14.3 to
bermudagrass golf course greens when temperatures exceed 90°F."

From TurfGrass.com wayyyyy back in 2001 (https://turfgrass.com/please-help-me-with-my-st-augustine-grass/):
"Banner MAXX by Novartis is a broad spectrum fungicide containing propiconazole, a demethylation inhibitor (DMI) and it has shown strong plant growth regulator effects on bermudagrass, which have been shown to be very harmful to golf course greens at high rates of application. There is also a risk of slowing down the growth of St. Augustinegrass, particularly at high rates of application, and possibly at high temperatures. The label is guarded on its usefulness for Take-All Patch, caused by the same organism, "Apply Banner MAXX to reduce the severity of take-all pathc." Banner MAXX also has a Warning label, and there are specific safety clothing requirements for the applicator, and a restriction time on worker reentry."

Might try this on a single 1 sq ft area.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

Today applied Sethoxydim @ 13% instead of the usual 18% . Used "Bonide Grass Beater". Recommendation from @Darth_V8r . I only hit the areas i could have well used round-up on. Some of the areas have a little bit of St. Augustine growing through them. I used .8oz/gallon. I went heavy on the the torpedo, you can see that they had already been severely yellowed by the Dismiss NXT. And i had just done another application of Dismiss NXT 2 days ago. The area by the white fence is pretty much all crabgrass Dismiss NXT knocked down i would say 60 percent of it. Maybe a little more. So in the next couple of weeks will post pictures of how it turned out and whether or not the St. Augustine survived. Its so hard to see the guy riding on a giant mower mowing a neighbors lawn which is full of weeds and then coming over into my area, bermuda and all. Partially my fault as well as 1 year ago i was mowing my ex girlfriends yards and she had a ton of weeds, then i'd use the same mower a week later in my yard without washing the canopy. Below are the pictures.


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## TSGarp007 (May 22, 2018)

Keep up the good fight! I've subscribed since bermuda is the worst weed ever!

I've used propicinazole without any problems in whatever kind of SA I have.

Also, I've found that hand pulling the bermuda absolutely does work. Not so much in killing the bermuda, you can't possibly pull up the meters of roots it lays down, but it really helps let the SA take over. If you get that area of SA nice and healthy it will shade out the bermuda. But you have to keep going back to the same area repeatedly for a while, and then it may seem gone but will eventually come back. I do that in my front yard. Back yard occasionally just to keep it from taking over.


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## Redtwin (Feb 9, 2019)

TSGarp007 said:


> Keep up the good fight! I've subscribed since bermuda is the worst weed ever!
> 
> I've used propicinazole without any problems in whatever kind of SA I have.
> 
> Also, I've found that hand pulling the bermuda absolutely does work. Not so much in killing the bermuda, you can't possibly pull up the meters of roots it lays down, but it really helps let the SA take over. If you get that area of SA nice and healthy it will shade out the bermuda. But you have to keep going back to the same area repeatedly for a while, and then it may seem gone but will eventually come back. I do that in my front yard. Back yard occasionally just to keep it from taking over.


Yes, pulling it will work. I have a section where my neighbor's Empire Zoysia comes over and shades out my Bermuda. The only way I can beat back the Zoysia is to mow super low (.3" right now). Shade is Bermuda's kryptonite, I would think SA could do the same.


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## kb02gt (Aug 23, 2019)

TSGarp007 said:


> Keep up the good fight! I've subscribed since bermuda is the worst weed ever!
> 
> I've used propicinazole without any problems in whatever kind of SA I have.
> 
> Also, I've found that hand pulling the bermuda absolutely does work. Not so much in killing the bermuda, you can't possibly pull up the meters of roots it lays down, but it really helps let the SA take over. If you get that area of SA nice and healthy it will shade out the bermuda. But you have to keep going back to the same area repeatedly for a while, and then it may seem gone but will eventually come back. I do that in my front yard. Back yard occasionally just to keep it from taking over.


Thanks a lot, will continue to fight this. Will start to pull on the bermuda again, unfortunately i would say its taken over a good 30% of my backyard at this point. Its funny cause now when i will see a broadleaf weed and i'll say to myself "eh, will take care of it when i get a chance, ive got bigger fish to fry". However, this month the Floritam is coming on strong (most aggressive variety, yet the most sensitive, lol). It is coming up through the Bermuda. Will try to make it a daily habit to do 5-10 minutes of pulling per day. Then access where things are in 2 or 3 weeks. Current cut height is 4.5 inches. So true about the shade. I do see it growing "some" in the shady areas, but nothing like it is in the sunny spots. I'm literally considering buying a huge tarp/canopy the kind you have at a beach, and just move it to the areas where i do not want the bermuda to thrive. But, i have an hoa, so not sure how that it go with them or the neighbors.


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