# My Lawn is Destroyed - How do I Restart?



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

I'll try to keep this as short as possible out of respect for those that choose to read it.

This all started 6 years ago. A new house in Northern Ohio, with a heavy clay lot with tons of builder's debris. I always wanted a KBG lawn, but was too ignorant at that time to tell KBG from pasture grass, and that's where the trouble started...

We paid an eye-watering sum for a firm to sod half of out 15K sq. ft. lot in KBG, and to seed the other half. Why? Because we had a dog, and we wanted somewhere for him to be able to run as soon as possible. Long story short, the seed was washed out by a storm within a couple of days and the landscaping firm send someone back to reseed. Little did I know they threw down pasture grass (K31?) seed vs. KBG.





In the first couple of years I kept asking the company why the two sides were so different looking. The answer was always that they may be slightly different varieties and may take a while to grow in. By year 3 I'm questioning that and they've changed to 'there are weeds in the seed half, but we'll treat for them' (they were performing the maintenance as well). The tall fescue was starting to show up in clumps in the sodded half, and it was winning the battle against the KBG. Of course, the herbicide treatments (I know now) were futile... 

Year 4, and I start watching LCN, Ryan Knorr, etc. and I'm doing what I can to get educated. I also take over all maintenance, buy a Toro Timemaster and a 4 gal. backpack sprayer. MY knowledge increases substantially, as do the results, but when it gets into the heat of the summer my lawn still looks like a joke. I realize that the seeded half of the lawn is actually 90% tall fescue... I talk to the landscapers... 'I'll send someone round to look' - three separate times and nobody ever comes round to look, other than the owner and he says 'oh, my Dad's actually smarter about grass... I'll send him round. It never happens. :x

So, spring 2020 and I'm going all-in. The 7 YO kid next door just asked me "Hey, why is your yard two different colors of green?" :lol: My plan: I'll aerate, apply humic, biochar etc., overseed the tall fescue side and reseed other patches with 3-way KBG from SeedSuperstore, peat moss, apply tenacity, fertilize, and watch the results some in.



Wrong.

Our spring was snow to drought in about 5 weeks. Three separate rainouts... one freak final snow storm. I had to reseed 4 times, and even went as far as using seedcoat on the final two runs. Some good success in the patches, but the overseeding didn't take at all. 6 weeks in with diligent watering and success is limited to the patches only... Then the heat comes, and half of those just die off. Sprout, pout, then die-off.







August, and my lawn is the joke of the neighborhood. Never have I put so much effort into so much failure. You'll see from the pics that the KBG side is dormant, and even dying in some cases. In some cases the green patches on that side are the KBG patches that survived. They stayed strong and vigorous, and seem to be able to thrive in the conditions. The other green patches are tall fescue clumps that I missed. Where the new KBG patches couldn't survive the bare soil was quickly taken over by spurge and other weeds.

Meanwhile the 'pasture grass' side and the tree lawn (which is the same grass) are still relatively green, but it's tough, coarse, wide-bladed junk that doesn't seem to care about the poor clay soil or the heat of the sun. Mother Nature won, and I lost.



I've almost given up on wanting to even care about lawn care. Pride has turned into embarrassment. One last try and I'm done, so what should I do?

My current plan is to kill off all grass on the front and side of my house in a couple of weeks and reseed from scratch. Given the inability for the overseed to take except in the patches where I was able to thoroughly amend the soil I assume simply smoking the lawn and overseeding won't do it, and that I'll need to find someone to Harley rake and drive in some good carbon-rich dirt into the top few inches. I was going to use the same 3-way *** blend from SeedSuperstore since it seems to be doing really well in the few places where I didn't screw it up. Is that the right plan? Do I need to Harley rake and add OM? Should I add some rye or other grass types to the blend? Any and all advice is appreciated... If this doesn't work I'm selling every lawn tool I own and giving up on lawncare as a hobby.


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Why with as bad as your KBG is doing every summer do you want to plant more of it? It appears you'd have much better luck with going full TTTF unless you plan on watering more.


----------



## moedank (Sep 10, 2019)

ksturfguy said:


> Why with as bad as your KBG is doing every summer do you want to plant more of it? It appears you'd have much better luck with going full TTTF unless you plan on watering more.


I agree. Why not TTTF? Get a good blend of quality cultivars. I just bought a 50lb bag of fescue from GCI Turf for around $140 shipped. The blades will be finer and darker green compared to typical KY31.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Good question. One neighbor has KBG at it looks fantastic all year round. I don't know the cultivar, but I can ask him. I always liked the look of KBG and the idea that KBG could self-repair, especially owning a crazy-fast dog that digs up chunks when he runs.

I'm encouraged by the better varietal I planted, in that where it came in it's a strong green, yet soft compared to the old KBG sod that is just brown and crispy. Here's a pic of the area around the mailbox where it flooded, but finally grew in... You can see how lush and green it is right around the mailbox post compared to the surrounding grass.

I asked the landscaper what varietal they used and they couldn't remember. It only does well on the partial-shaded side of the house, and is useless in full sun.

TTTF? I'll look into it for sure. I shouldn't tie myself to KBG if it just won't work. I'll have to see if I can find a good example of TTTF in the neighborhood or surrounding area. Most people here have blends that don't do particularly well. The 3 yards locally that are real stand-outs are all KBG.


----------



## Sinclair (Jul 25, 2017)

The grass around mailboxes, fire hydrants, lamps, telephone poles, etc., is usually higher quality thanks to boy dogs


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Yeah KBG could work if you water more, if not it will go dormant like you are seeing now. Like @moedank said, if you buy a high quality TTTF it will be thinner then the KY31 and a nice dark green. I think either option will produce a beautiful lawn if properly maintained.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I think you are a bit late to start a renovation in northern Ohio. Ideally seed should go down last weekend for you. More so if you want kbg. By the time you do round up, wait for the kill and seed, we are talking early Sept.

Do you have a way to irrigate the entire area?


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks much for your input. A little bit of additional history:

When we moved in the landscaping firm also installed the sprinkler system. All 15 zones were set up pretty well, but they set it up to water once a day lightly 7 days a week. I was ignorant and didn't know any better, so it ran that way for 4 years. As a result the roots are incredibly shallow.

I tried altering the watering plan starting last year (deeper, 2-3 times per week) and that's successful in the spring and fall, but in the summer it struggles... even from early summer. Deeper watering doesn't seem to fix it, and the best I've done is to keep it semi-green in the full sun areas and just let it bounce back in the fall. I just assume it's an inferior varietal in bad soil that suffered years of a bad watering plan.

To add insult to injury, we went on vacation last week, and it rained a lot. I didn't know it so left the regular irrigation schedule on. Some of the dormant grass has basically rotted to the point that you could scrape it up using light pressure on your fingertips.


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Granted I know nothing about the weather in Northern Ohio but looking at the maps for plant hardiness and first frost dates, it seems to be same as mine in NE Kansas. If your serious about doing it I would acquire your seed and start spraying about now. I think my seed down date last year was Aug 31. My reno area looks good now but it looked fairly rough until Mid May. I think it would have done better if I seeded another week or so earlier. With KBG you want to seed a littler earlier then TTTF because it's slower to establish.


----------



## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

AndyS said:


> I tried altering the watering plan starting last year (deeper, 2-3 times per week) and that's successful in the spring and fall, but in the summer it struggles... even from early summer. Deeper watering doesn't seem to fix it, and the best I've done is to keep it semi-green in the full sun areas and just let it bounce back in the fall. I just assume it's an inferior varietal in bad soil that suffered years of a bad watering plan.


don't feel too bad. The deep watering doesn't always work. I have gone down to watering every 3 days and my TTTF/KBG still struggles in the summer. My neighbors who know nothing about the lawns water every day and some do morning and night every day. Their lawns never look amazing even in spring or fall but somehow their grass always looks more green than mine during the heat of the summer unless they get a fungus.

Oddly enough it seems those who water daily have less fungus issues than those who barely water at all.


----------



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Welcome to the forum and glad that you are still trying. Alot of people will help you.

A few things that I realized when I started (and still checking and learning) is how much water are you actually putting down with deep watering. When we moved in my sprinkler system was timed to run almost the same through all zones, not taking into account shade, slope number of sprinklers in the zone. What made it even worse was every nozzle in every rotor was the same regardless if it was rotating 45 deg or 360 ..

You have the irrigation system which is great. See how much water you are putting down and can put down. You will need more in summer (upto 50% more).

Before you renovate or anything else that would really be my objective.

Also an overseed with TTTF might be easier and faster than going all in with a KBG reno. It will likely be more forgiving from what I have read.

Edit 1: 
Was reading through your thread and realized you were talking about adding organic matter. What does your soil test show, I may have missed it but never saw if you have a pH/OM of macro nutrient deficiency.

Edit 2: I saw you have a 4gallon sprayer but how comfortable are you with spraying fungicides etc?


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Have you soil tested? If not, I would definitely do that. I would also suggest an irrigation audit for uniformity and rate of watering.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks much, including for the welcome! - just saw the edits.

I haven't had a soil test on the yard. Based on the area of Ohio I live in the soil is generally acidic, but again no soil test on my actual yard. By organic matter what I was meaning was improving the the soil by adding organic matter vs. trying to alter ph. The reason I mentioned this was because I added topsoil and humichar specifically to the areas I patched and that's where the reseed seems to have taken successfully. The hard clay soil here generally sheets water off to the lowest point in the yard, so who knows how effective simply adding a layer of topsoil would actually be vs. thorough tilling

Regarding my backpack sprayer I typically only use it for humic based products, sea kelp, and Tenacity. The only time I've sprayed glyphosate it's been from a separate smaller hand can (e.g. 2 gal.)


----------



## thebmrust (Jun 29, 2020)

I'm not a pro turf guy and I don't play one on TV. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I have a thought:
(backstory)
I am in the beginning of a full renovation and its my first "my" lawn so to speak. At that, it's 1.5 acres. According to Google Maps and neighbors, the property hasn't had water on it for almost 5 years either (maybe as long as 7). It has been weeds for a long long time (goat head, cheatgrass and tumble weed mostly). I live in arid south eastern WA state so our climates are vastly different. The ground is mostly sand and it's hot and dry here.

My thought: what if you planted pasture grass this fall. Grow it properly next year and 'till the pasture grass into the soil next August to add nutrients and material to the clay. Reseed with more pasture grass for a season and 'till that in the following summer/early fall. Finally I'm Aug of 2022 put down the grass you really want.

Yes that's the LOOOONG road... and honestly, that's what we are doing. Two years of pasture grass to get some good stuff back into the ground. Then I will hopefully have a better idea what to do as a final stand. Make the mistakes on pasture grass (water, mow, organic matter) and save up for better mower and equipment.

Anyway... just a thought.
~Cheers


----------



## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

If you want a temporary lawn and plan to renovate next fall, plant grass you will be happy with forever. Pasture grass can have a lot of very hard to eradicate grassy weeds. For the small increased cost for good grass, it isn't worth the hassle of using pasture seed.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

bernstem said:


> If you want a temporary lawn and plan to renovate next fall, plant grass you will be happy with forever. Pasture grass can have a lot of very hard to eradicate grassy weeds. For the small increased cost for good grass, it isn't worth the hassle of using pasture seed.


This is exactly the direction I've chosen to go. This tall fescue is hideous stuff.

The temps look like holding well for a while, so I bit the bullet and sprayed glyphosate with marker blue on about 12K sq, ft. to leave an area we can fence off for the dog. I ordered 3-way bluegrass mix from seedsuperstore along with a small bag of radar chewings fescue. Plan is pure bluegrass on the front and side, with a blend of 10-20% fescue in the rear which is partial shade.

Instead of messing with tons of peat moss, a peat moss spreader and a roller (all of which got washed away or displaced in each Spring storm) I'm going with a mechanical overseeder this time around for seed-to-soil contact. I'll use either Tenacity plus a starter fert or the Scotts combo with mesotrione for ease.

The question is whether I find a way to till up the top layer after scalping and dethatching, or just drive the seed into the horrible native soil and just hope for the best. If this doesn't work I'm putting in the world's largest artificial turf putting green in the Spring :lol:


----------



## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

I think most of this has already been mentioned, but here is what I would do:

Tall Fescue is ugly and resilient. I would gly it a couple times this fall and kill any leftovers in the spring. Shoot for a full reno next year. A spring seeding is possible if you have the time and patience to do so.

Do an extensive irrigation audit to know how much water you are putting down. On calm days run each zone for a half hour or an hour (or however long it takes to get .5") and put out a dozen or so rain gauges. I got a dozen 1" yellow rain gauges for about $20 from the internet that work really well.

Do a soil sample. That way you know exactly what you're dealing with and what your soil needs.

You are in the heart of the KBG growing zone. The 3 way from SSS would be a great choice. Bluebank and Bewitched are rockstars. If you really wanted to dig into the NTEP numbers you could probably find a darker variety than BlueNote and create your own mix.

Get real comfortable with your sprayer and come up with a plan of attack over the winter!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks KoopHawk! Great points.

This tall fescue is ugly, resilient, and it steals water from anything I actually want to grow. I hit it with gly yesterday and plan to spot treat stubborn clumps either Sunday or early next week.

Soil test - this is something I've incorrectly avoided, so I'll pull some random cores and get it done. What's crazy about this soil is - even with Air-8 and frequent mowing (mulching) the soil just isn't improving. Maybe with 100 years of root cycling I could improve the soil but I just don't have that long.

Irrigation audit - I agree that's a must do. All of my 'main' sprinkler heads are Rainbird 5000s with (I believe) 4 gpm nozzles, but base on spacing and arc I know the front area is getting less water for a given time period. Time for a very extensive tuna can challenge once I get seed down. I'll look for the 1" yellow rain gauges you mention... I can't eat that much albacore!

Can you possibly clarify 'plan of attack over the winter'? I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.

Thanks!!!


----------



## KoopHawk (May 28, 2019)

AndyS said:


> Can you possibly clarify 'plan of attack over the winter'? I just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> Thanks!!!


As g-man pointed out it is probably too late to do a reno this year. Gly should have been going down in July, seed early Aug, etc. Last winter I spent a lot of time researching seed, fert, tools, historical weather, etc. to have a successful planting this growing season. I came up with a plan for both spring and fall seedings and ended up planting this spring. I got lucky with rain (no washouts) and got really unlucky with heat/wind. A good, solid plan will give you the best chance of success. Of course a plan is only as good as the weather mother nature gives you.


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Don't give up on a reno this year if that is your plan and what you want to do. I am not near the expert @g-man is but I think you will be just fine if you get your seed down by the end of August. I just looked at your average temps compared to mine and they are very similar in the Fall. I sprayed my first round of Gly last year on Aug 18 and seed down was Aug 31. It was a tough Fall for me because SEPT was the 6th warmest on record and then OCT was the 6th coldest. Do I think I would have had quicker success if I seeded a littler earlier? Most likely, but in the end I think it turned out really good. I mean if you have already sprayed Gly then might as well go all in and give it a shot. How ever if your not comfortable going all in on KBG this late maybe plant PRG for this fall and Spring and if you don't like that come next July then go all in on KBG???

This is what is looked like late OCT. 


This was late April this Spring. It was pretty slow waking up and still very thin. I was very concerned I failed but members on here gave me some advice and kept me encouraged.



This was yesterday after I mowed. Still a couple spots it needs to fill in but for the most part it's really really nice.


----------



## Mtsdream (May 2, 2019)

AndyS said:


> bernstem said:
> 
> 
> > If you want a temporary lawn and plan to renovate next fall, plant grass you will be happy with forever. Pasture grass can have a lot of very hard to eradicate grassy weeds. For the small increased cost for good grass, it isn't worth the hassle of using pasture seed.
> ...


Looks like hes already done it guys....thats a big reno for your first time? My advice is get fungicide ready or down for day of seed, be ready for washouts


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Mtsdream said:


> Looks like hes already done it guys....thats a big reno for your first time? My advice is get fungicide ready or down for day of seed, be ready for washouts


Yep, going all-in, but I spent literally 100s of hours on the failed spring Reno so I'm planning to take a much simpler approach this time and just deal with what happens.

Great point about fungicide... what should I buy (would prefer granular) and what am I looking to combat?

Interestingly the guy who has the best lawn in the neighborhood (kbg) says his secret weapon is applying fungicide 4 times a year. I wouldn't have even thought about it to be honest... Lots to learn...


----------



## Mtsdream (May 2, 2019)

I would see what your neighbor deals with fungus wise, disease ex is fine to put down with seed or after germination I believe. I had pythium blight with my reno caused by over watering, but that is a far more expensive fungicide for that.


----------



## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

As far as granular goes, the most common for homeowners are Scotts Disease Ex which is Azoxystrobin and then Bioadvanced Fungus Control which is Propiconizole. If you can find Headway G it contains both.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks a lot! I appreciate both the advice that it may be too late, as well as the encouragement that it may not be. As it stands I'm all-in now and will make the best of it. My biggest concern is that this grass doesn't let killed off easily by the gly... can I just keep applying every three days or so to increase my chances? Is there any harm in doing that?

I asked the neighbor regarding fungus and he uses Scott's DiseasEx but more as a preventative than to tackle any specific fungus.

I don't see a lot around this time of year, but this neighborhood gets hit hard with red thread.


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

No harm in more Gly other than your time and wallet. Water the lawn and feed it some fast nitrogen and it should help with a faster kill.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

g-man said:


> No harm in more Gly other than your time and wallet. Water the lawn and feed it some fast nitrogen and it should help with a faster kill.


Very interesting - I had no idea. I'll reapply on the larger concentrations of tall fescue. And source some fast acting N.

Mother Nature helped me (for once) with a large storm today. So glad I didn't have seed down when that happened!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Update: I watered thoroughly and, honestly, the first round of gly appeared to do nothing after 4 days. I just reapplied at a substantially higher rate. I can't wait much longer, so I plan to seed this weekend regardless.

Amazing how many texts your wife gets from neighbors when you dye your lawn blue in 'Wysteria Lane'


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Gly takes 7 to 10 days to show the effect. 4 is not enough.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Thanks @g-man . I'm now at day 5 from the first round, so hopefully some progress soon.

Given that I have two rounds of gly down, and since I have to make the best of a bad job (I.e. started the whole process too late) would it make sense to scalp and use a slit seeder at the weekend, simply trusting that the gly will do its job on the existing grass?

I don't think I can gamble with waiting for more gly rounds so at some point I guess I have to trust the process and just get going? Thoughts?


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

That's a compromise. Scalp, slit seed and then the day after the seed, do one more app of gly.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

g-man said:


> That's a compromise. Scalp, slit seed and then the day after the seed, do one more app of gly.


Thanks a lot!! Again, that's one thing I wasn't even aware of... that I can apply gly just after seeding. I know it's a foliar uptake, but I wouldn't have even thought of that - thank you!


----------



## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

One day after seed is ok. 2 is pushing it and 3 is a risk of killing some of the grass babies.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

g-man said:


> One day after seed is ok. 2 is pushing it and 3 is a risk of killing some of the grass babies.


Excellent - I'll go day-of or one day after. Hoping everything that's green turns crispy over the next 36 hours. Watering again today to get it moving...


----------



## halby (Jun 8, 2020)

im doing a late backyard reno as well. I have two apps of glypho down. Going on vacation next week, Than first week of September the topsoil comes. First seed getting dropped around 9/5-9/10. Best I can do. I am going with PRG which comes in fantasticly quick up here in SE michigan.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

This summer has been stupid hot, i don't think i could have dropped seed early august without running into serious disease issues. We are still going to hit 90 in SE michigan this weekend.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

halby said:


> Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.


I hear you! We're still getting plenty of highs in the high 90s...

So many variables and unknowns in lawn care... I play golf so I'm used to ever-changing variables and unknown outcomes, but lawn care is on a different level. Good luck!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Update: the gly is finally starting to have a visible effect. Maybe 90% of the lawn is looking weak or dead, with only some stubborn clumps of tall fescue seemingly hanging in there.

Question: we're seeing more birds in our lawn now. More than the neighbors have. Even my son has noticed it. Is this somehow related to killing off the lawn?


----------



## badtlc (Aug 22, 2019)

AndyS said:


> Question: we're seeing more birds in our lawn now. More than the neighbors have. Even my son has noticed it. Is this somehow related to killing off the lawn?


I think glyphosate may be toxic to worms. I saw a few sprint out of my test patch when i put roundup down. That would draw birds.


----------



## Ngilbe36 (Jul 23, 2020)

badtlc said:


> AndyS said:
> 
> 
> > Question: we're seeing more birds in our lawn now. More than the neighbors have. Even my son has noticed it. Is this somehow related to killing off the lawn?
> ...


Interesting. That would also explain why I was seeing a few moles much closer to the surface than normal. Three to be exact. All showed up after seed down and all were dispatched before germination btw!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

badtlc said:


> AndyS said:
> 
> 
> > Question: we're seeing more birds in our lawn now. More than the neighbors have. Even my son has noticed it. Is this somehow related to killing off the lawn?
> ...


Very interesting point. So, I found this 2020 study that suggests there is a harmful effect for generic glyphosate, but not for the Roundup formulation, suggesting that maybe the carrier/inert ingredients actually matter:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0045653519322568


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Update: so I rented a slit seeder this morning and went about mowing the lawn low before scalping. I took it down to the second-lowest setting, got through 90% of the mow and... BOOM! My Toro Timemaster ate itself. I took the plastic cowl off and there are frayed belts, loose belts, a pulley that had come apart, and ball bearings rolling around.

So, now I'm quarter into my reno day and unsure as to what to do. The Timemaster was not only my mower, but also my vacuum.

Do I just go ahead and put the seed down with the slit seeder even though I can't see soil in a lot of places? Use the slit seeder with no seed fort as a 'power rake' and then borrow a lawn mower to suck up the debris?? Help!!!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Update:

After all of the issues on reno day I got the seed down just at the end of the day (Saturday 22nd). It was too late to get starter fert / mesotrione down, so that went down the next day, along with imidacloprid for the hunting billbug infestation.

9 days in and the radar fescue is starting to push up well in the back where I added a few pounds to the KBG mix. In the front the bluegrass isn't too far behind and is just starting to push up in some places.

I always fear about the edges of the hell strips next to the curb (or which we have few hundred feet thanks to a corner lot) as they dry out quicker, and also were the most susceptible to runoff in the failed spring reno. I just put sprinkled additional seed (mixed with SeedCoat) on those areas and followed up with Pennington SlopeMaster to keep it in place. The whole lawn also got azoxy at the preventative rate today.

Thanks to all who have helped me out so far on this thread and in others. It really has been appreciated.


----------



## gregfromohio (Aug 14, 2019)

Andy, you should start a lawn journal in the cool season journals. There are several other Ohioans on here that would like to see your progress.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

gregfromohio said:


> Andy, you should start a lawn journal in the cool season journals. There are several other Ohioans on here that would like to see your progress.


Thanks @gregfromohio - I'll have to do that! I looked at your lawn journal and it's a great record... Looks like a really nice property too.

I have a sprinkler guy out today to add some heads and lines to fix overwatered and underwatered areas in zones, so there's a good chance I've made another bad decision to put in the record books. He says the trenching is really narrow... we shall see :?


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

Time for an update. I came back from vacation in mid August to a lawn that had been a mish-mash of K-31 and KBG, except at this point the K-31 had won the battle and the billbugs had taken the rest.

From late August to late October I've gone from a dead lawn to a largely-established elite KBG lawn thanks in large part to this board. We're not completely there yet but my goal is a dream lawn by late spring.

You folks have helped with everything from seeding techniques to pest identification and control. How to water... when to water... when to feed. This board taught me how to spray urea, when to put down preventative fungus control... when to start mowing new grass and to what height.

The best part for me was this that gave me hope, with their own stories and pictures of how patience pays off and that perfection isn't required for success.

So here's where we are today. Every day the new KBG fills in where the old dead TF once ruled. The splits are between mid September and Mid October why growing KBG is such a game of patience. Thanks all.


----------



## Jeff_MI84 (Sep 28, 2020)

I just overseeded with Lesco's 90/10 TTTF/ KBG and I am never going back. It's been 7 weeks and I am happy as can be.


----------



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Glad to see rye success. Hopefully you are feeding the crap out of it. Continue to do so next spring as well. Again &#128077; for the success. Btw what seed did you use?


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

uts said:


> Glad to see rye success. Hopefully you are feeding the crap out of it. Continue to do so next spring as well. Again 👍 for the success. Btw what seed did you use?


Thanks @uts - I went with the SS1100 blend from Seedsuperstore and have been really happy with it.

Yes - feeding weekly! Was going with liquid urea but have gone with a granular starter with iron the last 2 weeks with 2% iron. It's growing more slowly at this point, but still growing and filling in.


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

AndyS said:


> From late August to late October I've gone from a dead lawn to a largely-established elite KBG lawn thanks in large part to this board. We're not completely there yet but my goal is a dream lawn by late spring.


Those October pics look good. Congrats! Spring will be a time of lots of mowing.

Yes, establishment of KBG is definitely for the patient. In the end, though, I think it's worth it. Being able to apply a pre-emergent to prevent weeds in the spring (by applying at forsythia bloom or even a little earlier) and in the fall (by applying at the beginning of August) makes a huge difference -- you can treat weeds and know that the grass will fill back in in the next prime growing season.

Keep up the good work!

(PS: One note, though, is that depending upon the specific varieties of KBG, it can be slow to green up in the spring. My Bewitched side lawn is _*very slow*_ to green up in the spring. The Prosperity seems to be a bit faster, but is still way slow compared to the areas we have fine fescue or a northern mix. That's okay with me, though. It gives the neighbors a chance for a few weeks each year to have their lawn look better than ours. )


----------



## sheepfescue (Jul 29, 2019)

Sorry for the random question, but.... how do you get the aerial views at different points when wanted... do you own a drone?


----------



## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

ken-n-nancy said:


> (PS: One note, though, is that depending upon the specific varieties of KBG, it can be slow to green up in the spring. My Bewitched side lawn is _*very slow*_ to green up in the spring. The Prosperity seems to be a bit faster, but is still way slow compared to the areas we have fine fescue or a northern mix. That's okay with me, though. It gives the neighbors a chance for a few weeks each year to have their lawn look better than ours. )


I have started preparing for next year reno on a fairly large section. I was planning for a mono with BlueBank and everytime I have talked to a major golf supplier for seeds etc, one of the major concerns that they put up is spring green up. By any chance do you have an idea of how slow? I was talking to a supplier in MA and he said it might be early June to wake up ... that seemed excessive...


----------



## 440mag (Jan 29, 2018)

AndyS said:


> ...
> From late August to late October I've gone from a dead lawn to a largely-established elite KBG lawn thanks in large part to this board. We're not completely there yet but my goal is a dream lawn by late spring....


Wow! What an awesome success story and Major Win!!! :thumbup:



sheepfescue said:


> ... do you own a drone?


I'm betting he does (I need one of those things so bad! :lol:


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

ken-n-nancy said:


> One note, though, is that depending upon the specific varieties of KBG, it can be slow to green up in the spring


Thanks @ken-n-nancy - I now know not to freak out if that happens!

I'll be very happy to be able to put down prodiamine in the Spring and still get fill-in, though. That will be a great feeling!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

sheepfescue said:


> Sorry for the random question, but.... how do you get the aerial views at different points when wanted... do you own a drone?


Correct - those were photos from a drone. It's an older DJI Mavic. I don't use it very often, but it takes great photos and is very stable in winds. I was able to use it in the Spring to photograph shingle damage and send it to a friend in another state to advise on possible repairs. Random but useful!


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

440mag said:


> Wow! What an awesome success story and Major Win!!! :thumbup:
> 
> I'm betting he does (I need one of those things so bad! :lol:


Thanks @440mag! The advice from all of you great folks on this forum definitely makes good things happen!!

Drones are definitely fun... I forgot to mention that I actually used it to scare birds off the lawn during the reno. I'd fly it low and then hover it up near the trees when they fled. I guess they thought it was a hawk or something... It wouldn't keep them away forever but you'd get a good hour of peace :lol:


----------



## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

Congratulations man, it looks great! I just did my first semi full reno on my front yard to convert to all kbg. It was stressful as can be, esp waiting out the sprout and pout stage. Like you I am new to the lawncare hobby. This is only my second year. Slowly learning as I go and started to learn to enjoy the process. Growing grass does indeed take longer than watching paint dry, but infinitely more enjoyable.

All that said, I am never doing another full or semi reno ever again lol! Its waaay too much work and stress. I think the plan going forward is just to dump seed every spring and fall onto my existing lawn with cultivars that I want and just hope it takes over eventually.


----------



## AndyS (Jun 13, 2020)

situman said:


> Congratulations man, it looks great! I just did my first semi full reno on my front yard to convert to all kbg. It was stressful as can be, esp waiting out the sprout and pout stage. Like you I am new to the lawncare hobby. This is only my second year. Slowly learning as I go and started to learn to enjoy the process. Growing grass does indeed take longer than watching paint dry, but infinitely more enjoyable.
> 
> All that said, I am never doing another full or semi reno ever again lol! Its waaay too much work and stress. I think the plan going forward is just to dump seed every spring and fall onto my existing lawn with cultivars that I want and just hope it takes over eventually.


I'm with you @situman it's very rewarding, but takes its toll. I have a very energetic dog and an equally energetic kid and they're both kept off the lawn right now so the disruption hits almost everybody.

I'm hoping like you that from now on it's basically just care and feeding for the most part :thumbup:


----------



## timmybluegrass (Oct 19, 2020)

situman said:


> All that said, I am never doing another full or semi reno ever again lol! Its waaay too much work and stress. I think the plan going forward is just to dump seed every spring and fall onto my existing lawn with cultivars that I want and just hope it takes over eventually.


Unless you are unhappy with the cultivars you just selected I don't think this makes much sense. Spring and fall are times to apply pre-emergents for crabgrass and poa annua, respectively. These pre-emergents will prevent grass seed from developing but, again, unless you are unhappy with your lawn, with 100% KBG, you shouldn't need to overseed. If the lawn seems thin, push it with N.


----------



## situman (Nov 3, 2020)

timmybluegrass said:


> situman said:
> 
> 
> > All that said, I am never doing another full or semi reno ever again lol! Its waaay too much work and stress. I think the plan going forward is just to dump seed every spring and fall onto my existing lawn with cultivars that I want and just hope it takes over eventually.
> ...


That would be the sensible thing to do, but lawncare is a hobby and a luxury at the end of the day.


----------



## timmybluegrass (Oct 19, 2020)

Please do whatever you like. As implied in your reply, one of the coolest things about lawncare is that your lawn is yours and you can do almost anything you want with it. That said, if the goal of your lawncare hobby is to have an attractive and healthy KBG lawn, skipping pre-emergent apps to overseed, particularly in the Spring, will most often not get you to that goal.


----------



## MDJoe (Sep 16, 2019)

AndyS said:


> Thanks much for your input. A little bit of additional history:
> 
> When we moved in the landscaping firm also installed the sprinkler system. All 15 zones were set up pretty well, but they set it up to water once a day lightly 7 days a week. I was ignorant and didn't know any better, so it ran that way for 4 years. As a result the roots are incredibly shallow.
> 
> ...


A good TTTF lawn should stay green in that watering situation, it is deeper-rooted.


----------



## MDJoe (Sep 16, 2019)

uts said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
> 
> 
> > (PS: One note, though, is that depending upon the specific varieties of KBG, it can be slow to green up in the spring. My Bewitched side lawn is _*very slow*_ to green up in the spring. The Prosperity seems to be a bit faster, but is still way slow compared to the areas we have fine fescue or a northern mix. That's okay with me, though. It gives the neighbors a chance for a few weeks each year to have their lawn look better than ours. )
> ...


Early June? even ZOYSIA would wake up before that!


----------



## ken-n-nancy (Jul 25, 2017)

uts said:


> ken-n-nancy said:
> 
> 
> > (PS: One note, though, is that depending upon the specific varieties of KBG, it can be slow to green up in the spring. My Bewitched side lawn is _*very slow*_ to green up in the spring. The Prosperity seems to be a bit faster, but is still way slow compared to the areas we have fine fescue or a northern mix. That's okay with me, though. It gives the neighbors a chance for a few weeks each year to have their lawn look better than ours. )
> ...


Sorry for the delay in replying to this, @uts -- been a crazy busy last few days...

Early June sounds like it must be an exaggeration for greenup of Bluebank in Connecticut. Our Bewitched greens up sooner than that up in New Hampshire. Then again, maybe Bluebank is even slower than Bewitched?

Looking back at our lawn logs from prior years, our northern mix front lawn (prior to a 2018 all-KBG renovation) had initial greenup around April 10th-20th, with first mowing about one to two weeks later, from the last week of April to around the first week of May.

However, our all-Bewitched side lawn (which, admittedly gets less sun) wasn't greening up until about May 1st to May 10th, with first mowing around May 10th - 20th.

So, it seems from our experience, that our Bewitched KBG monostand is greening up about three weeks later than our "northern mix" front lawn had been, and being ready for its first mowing about three weeks later too.

So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a Bluebank lawn is 3 weeks late compared to other "northern mix" grasses.

Oh, I should mention that there is one advantage to having a very late green-up in an all-KBG lawn... the _Poa annua_ and _Poa trivialis_ green up about a month before the KBG, making them very easy to identify and hand-pull at any time during that month in between! I made good progress against _Poa annua_ and _Poa trivialis_ that way this year.


----------



## Minnesooota (Mar 26, 2020)

This is one heck of a read. Thanks for all of the detail by all involved.

Bookmarked, in the hopes that doing so insures I never need to renovate a lawn.

(serious question - have anyone set up a camera for a time-lapsed series of photos for a reno start-to-finish?)


----------



## Epifanio (Dec 22, 2020)

Good night friends, my name is Epifanio and in the same way I also have a serious problem with my grass. Every vacation period I travel to Mexico where I have a house with a beautiful grass, unfortunately this year when I travel to Mexico I found my grass completely destroyed, and with a serious Ant problem. In Mexico we do not have a variety of products for pests, it is very difficult for me to find insecticides from brands like Syngenta, Basf and Bayer and the closest store handles only these insecticides https://combatpest.com.mx/. Could you tell me if within those insecticides there is any effective one that works for me and that does not damage the grass.


----------

