# TTTF vs. KBG Renovation



## Slingblade_847 (Apr 13, 2020)

Hey Fellas-

Keep going back and forth and looking for some feedback and direction on a renovation elite grass seed selection. Initially I was thinking 100% KBG from the seed super store. However the 30 day germination seems daunting. Now leaning towards an elite TTTF. Been doing research and see that germination on that would be about half of KBG.

Now I understand that TTTF will most likely require an over seeding next fall, while KBG self repairs. I'm ok with that. Are there any other added benefits from KBG vs TTTF that shouldn't be overlooked?

Appreciate any suggestions and feedback.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

KBG never needs overseeding, is darker green, and can be cut lower than TTTF. TTTF will tolerate dry conditions and heat better than KBG. Perennial Ryegrass is another option to look into. It stripes extremely well and tolerates low cutting better than TTTF.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

TTTF needs overseeding every year! Your Poa A weapons are disabled (No PreM in fall, TTTF is more sensitive to Tenacity).
If you want to put the 'extra' effort with your climate all the way KBG.


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## mooch91 (May 5, 2019)

90/10 mix of both - best of both worlds!


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## mrp116 (Mar 2, 2020)

Babameca said:


> TTTF needs overseeding every year!


I disagree with this statement. I have TTTF, and I do not need to over seed every year or even every other year. I over seed maybe every four years. If you do need to over seed TTTF every year something is wrong with your lawn. The last time I over seeded was three years ago. I have no bare spots, and my grass is so thick that when I finish cutting and walk through it, I leave footprints almost like walking in snow. Do not believe that, that's hearsay from people who have probably never had a TTTF lawn.


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## j4c11 (Apr 30, 2017)

KBG does not take 30 days to germinate though. You start to see germination around day 7, and by day 18 mostly everything that was going to germinate is already out. What does take a while is the pouting stage, it just kind of sits there for 2 weeks, maybe 3 if you're "lucky". Pretty nerve wrecking. With KBG you can expect a lush green lawn 45-50 days after seed down if everything goes well.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@mrp116 Can you share pictures of your lawn, so the OP can make his rightful conclusions...
I am watching GCI turf channel. He may know a trick or two . And thanks for sharing that this is a grass that you can't walk on  or it is basically kept so tall that it is really not enjoyable to walk on. TTTF maybe the only valuable option for the upper Transition zone, but when we talk IL, upper NY and many in the cool season lawn mantis, that becomes a part of a mix. KBG reins in those regions for many, many more benefits. Repair and cold hardiness are hard to beat.


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## Slingblade_847 (Apr 13, 2020)

Ok. Thanks all for the perspective and leans me towards KBG. Would there be any benefit of establishment with mixing in PRG (prevent washout)? Also, trying to follow the renovation guide provided within this forum (much appreciation @g-man )and it has a 60 day post germination PreM treatment. If I walk that backwards, assuming a 30 day germination, I've got a seed down date in early August to have all the steps in the renovation guide complete before first frost (hopefully). Is early August too soon for seed down, or perhaps even late July?


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Slingblade_847 Yes PRG will help with reducing initial wash out risk. It is also more resistant to some diseases but less to others... It grows a but faster too. Some here will swear of a monostand (single KBG cultivar for example) others will mix in varieties for a more 'practical' approach. I seeded mid August and am more North than you.
If your lawn is mainly sunny, any 'elite' northern mix of KBG/PRG, well maintained will give you full enjoyment. In the shadowy areas you may look for KBG Mazama, Everest or simply fine and creeping red fescue.


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

A mix lawn is more resilient and less likely to be significantly impacted by disease. A blend of just one grass type will look more uniform and thus generally look better, but will be more susceptible to disease and weeds or invasive grass will stand out more. Single species lawns typically require a bit more attention since if something happens, the whole lawn can be very quickly affected.

Bluegrass has more disease issues than Tall Fescue in the transition zone (it just doesn't tolerate the heat as well), but you are far from the Transition zone. KBG has a bit better cold tolerance than Tall Fescue. Tall Fescue and Bluegrass can blend very well if carefully chosen, but Fine and Creeping Fescues will stand out more when mixed in. Tall Fescue also does a bit better in partial shade, but if you have full shade both Bluegrass and Tall Fescue will struggle.

Perennial Rye and Tall Fescue establish quicker than Bluegrass, but that shouldn't deter you. You only need to establish a new lawn once.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@bernstem Well said. I just hate typing for more than 3 min. OCD...? Can't care less :lol:


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## FuzzeWuzze (Aug 25, 2017)

KBG. 
This is my Mazama KBG monostand last fall, day 0(August 15th or so?) and day 36. 
It took about 7-10 days to start seeing sprouts.

I was mowing i believe by day 30? Has really filled in since then, and its starting to finally make its way into the bare dirt by the sidewalk that apparently i didnt seed very well. Will TTTF grow faster? Yes. I'll say as someone who went PRG and then mix PRG/KBG, i regret not just doing KBG the first time, i could be so much further along.


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## mrp116 (Mar 2, 2020)

Babameca said:


> @mrp116 Can you share pictures of your lawn, so the OP can make his rightful conclusions...
> I am watching GCI turf channel. He may know a trick or two . And thanks for sharing that this is a grass that you can't walk on  or it is basically kept so tall that it is really not enjoyable to walk on. TTTF maybe the only valuable option for the upper Transition zone, but when we talk IL, upper NY and many in the cool season lawn mantis, that becomes a part of a mix. KBG reins in those regions for many, many more benefits. Repair and cold hardiness are hard to beat.


I'll admit that you can't cut low here with TTTF, but I also didn't see that as a requirement. I admittedly did not pay attention to the location. I do cut at 3.5 - 4" in the warm months here, but thin blade TTTF is actually very enjoyable to walk on. My nine year old son and his friends are running around on it every day. This is the only picture I have of my lawn, but it is representative of the fullness.

You can also tell that this has been well trampled on by my son and his friends at this point.


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

My experience from doing both TTTF/KBG mix (backyard) and KBG mono (front) renovation is that establishing both requires the same amount of effort.

The difference:
TTTF/KBG Day 25 - 


KBG Day 21 - 


You can clearly see the slow establishment in my KBG renovation.

However, by Day 63 KBG has established nicely.


My TTTF/KBG reno was done in 2014 and I have not overseeded it once... well, actually, I had some old leftover seeds that I spread on it because I was afraid they were going bad (I guess that counts as an overseed :lol: ). But mixing in the KBG really helps with repair.

As for maintenance, I treat them both equally. I don't "babysit" the KBG monostand at all.

Oh, here's TTTF/KBG cut low around my kids playground I was experimenting with... around 1".



http://imgur.com/4lb3OUM




http://imgur.com/8ucg2Di


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## Harts (May 14, 2018)

@Slingblade_847 everything you here about grass types are all general guidelines.

TTTF: "Must be over seeded every year" 
There are several members that will tell you they over seed their TTTF every year. There also several that will tell you they don't need to. Because there are so many variables with lawn care, what is true for one person, isn't for the other.

KBG: "Take 30+ days to germinate"
The truth is it will take approx. 30 days for all of your KBG seed to germinate. That means you could start to see new grass pop up around day 10 or day 14 and more around day 21. As someone mentioned above, KBG goes through a sprout and pout phase where it just kind of stays the same for a couple of weeks before it takes off again. There is no question KBG takes the longest to get going and might be the hardest to grow since you're watering really needs to be on point for longer than it would with TTTF and PRG.

As you can see from the replies above, you get several different answers. It isn't an easy decision because there are so many different types to consider.

I wish you luck!


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Really probably cant go wrong either way. Almost all of my yard is TTTF but i did kill off a 1000 sqft section last fall and went with a Mazama KBG monostand. I think all of it looks great right now.

Like others have said TTTF does not necessarily require an over seed every year. I havent done one in a few years. Ive more transitioned to fixing individual spots. With TTTF if disease or heat kills a small section then ill throw down seed in that spot vs overseeding the entire lawn. My lawn is as thick as ever. KBG you wont have to do that and it will eventually fill in.


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## Slingblade_847 (Apr 13, 2020)

Ok. I've landed on a decision. Special thanks to @Babameca and @bernstem!! I've also reviewed several of the renovations others provided. Extremely insightful.

This will be my selection:


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

I think that will look great


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Slingblade_847 That's an awesome mix!
1. All elite types
2. Just a sprinkle of PRG for fast germination
3. Ridiculously dark green cultivars.
4. Mazama for those 'tricky' areas where sun may not be on for long.

Now just need to start your planning. The 10ish days before and 30-40days after seed down will be crucial.
I am guessing you plan this for fall? Your weather is not extremely different from where I am, so maybe 2nd-3rd week of August may be your best bet for seed down. Anything else we can help with, just ask. I have a check list I created to manage this. Once the time comes and if you needed, I will share.
Cheers and good luck,
B


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## Chris LI (Oct 26, 2018)

:nod:


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## bernstem (Jan 16, 2018)

Looking good! That will make a great lawn.


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## Slingblade_847 (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks @Babameca and appreciate the encouragement. Not getting much of that from the wifey! One may say I've been obsessively planning...but I'm those on here understand that. I'd be really happy to see your checklist. Trying to lean and gain as much knowledge far in advance. I'll also be starting another thread that will be dedicated to my renovation to track along the way.


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## Ohio Lawn (Mar 20, 2019)

Good topic. I'll be watching.


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Slingblade_847 Your 'lawn wifes' are living here, in this forum. You real wife will be definitely blown away and will look at this in a very different way, once your lawn established. Personal experience here .
Here is a snapshot of my initial planning. It changed along the way. For this look at my journal.
Starter fert was only applied 2 and 4 weeks after seed down, at 0.5P/M. Manual reel mower was used for the first 3-4 mowings.


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## Slingblade_847 (Apr 13, 2020)

@Babameca cant thank you enough. Very helpful. Few questions...

On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being most critical:

1. Aeration. I planned to skip this. Grass growing fine now, and zero issues with passing 8" screw driver test.

2. Reel mowing. I hadn't planned on this. Is a cheaper one ok in the $100 range (i.e Scotts Push Reel).


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## Babameca (Jul 29, 2019)

@Slingblade_847 5 for aeration. While compaction may not be an issue seed fall in or close to holes and have good chance for germination. If you scalp/scarify before seed down, criticality drops to 2.
Yes cheap reel mower will do the trick and then you return it :lol: . Or you may like it. The zero weight to it will keep new germination safe and the fact it cuts clean with no vacuum effect as a rotary will keep your new baby lawn in place.


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