# Matt's front lawn Reno (GCI TTTF)



## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Hello everyone. I recently discovered this forum and just joined. I figured it would be a valuable resource and wise to journal my progress rather than do everything without suggestions from experienced members along the way. I began my renovation nearly a month ago on August 5 with the first round of glypho. I was very intimidated at first, but as Al (the Lawncare Nut) told me, too many people overthink this. So I decided to go for it. I was going to till everything, level and roll, but was discouraged from doing that. I had to till up one area of tree lawn that was 4-6" higher than the sidewalk and road, and used that dirt (after sifting debris out) to level everything.

8/5/20 - first round of roundup
8/16/20 - mow @ 1.5", rake out moss and thatch, spray second round of glypho
8/24/20 - began tilling tree lawn, sifting and moving dirt around
8/30/20 - applied Mag-i-cal Plus
9/1/20 - finally finished tilling tree lawn area
9/2/20-9/3/20 - finish raking/spreading topsoil/leveling
9/6/20 - final roundup app
9/7/20 - H12 and Air8 app
9/8/20 - seed down with xstart fert
9/9/20 - Tenacity and RGS app
9/13/20 - germination
9/26/20 - H12, RGS and air8 app half rate 
9/30/20 - first mow @ 3.25", AMS @ .25lb/M
10/7/20 - second mow @ 2.75"
10/8/20 - AMS @ .25lb/M


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)




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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)




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## Carlson (Apr 16, 2020)

Going earlier on the H12 and Air8 does reduce the number of sprays you'd need to do on seed day and getting it done earlier won't have any negative impact. I did a pass with the full bio-stim pack about a week before I seeded.

Are you broadcast-spreading seed? That seed bed looks great and the little bit of dead grass poking thru should be good assistance against washouts unless you get one of those 2"+ in an hour storms that seeding is known to cause &#128516;


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Can you do the seeds today? I don't see the benefit to wait until 10Sept.

What grass type are your seeds?


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Carlson said:


> Going earlier on the H12 and Air8 does reduce the number of sprays you'd need to do on seed day and getting it done earlier won't have any negative impact. I did a pass with the full bio-stim pack about a week before I seeded.
> 
> Are you broadcast-spreading seed? That seed bed looks great and the little bit of dead grass poking thru should be good assistance against washouts unless you get one of those 2"+ in an hour storms that seeding is known to cause 😄


I am broadcasting the seed. I've spent a lot of time getting it nearly perfectly flat. Today's rain showed the last few barely low spots, which will get leveled out tomorrow. I'm pleased with how the seed bed is looking. The other side of the driveway is in progress.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

g-man said:


> Can you do the seeds today? I don't see the benefit to wait until 10Sept.
> 
> What grass type are your seeds?


Thor, Blacktail and Falcon IV. I'd love to seed tomorrow but I have another 5ish hours of work to do to the other sections to get them ready. I was hoping to seed Monday, but Tuesday and Wednesday (8th and 9th) are supposed to be 81-82, so soil temps will rise above 70.

Am I good to seed ASAP even with a few warmer days coming up?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

Yes. Air temps don't matter. I seeded on 05Aug last year.


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

g-man said:


> Yes. Air temps don't matter. I seeded on 05Aug last year.


I seeded Aug 11 with avg temps for first 14 days were low 80's and last 4 were 91-94 degrees... now upper 70's and then tomorrow is low 70's


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

I just threw down the same seed in my lawn as an overseed. Your seed bed looks fantastic so I'm looking forward to see your results. It's incredible how much prep work there is for something like this, looks like you've got a good plan, just need to execute.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Pezking7p said:


> I just threw down the same seed in my lawn as an overseed. Your seed bed looks fantastic so I'm looking forward to see your results. It's incredible how much prep work there is for something like this, looks like you've got a good plan, just need to execute.


That makes me feel good. I've always had bumpy, uneven lawns, so I wanted it to be perfect. I'll be doing a third and final level on it today or tomorrow. The perfectionist in me is putting me behind where I wanted to be, but Labor Day is a good target seed date anyhow for my area. Can't wait to finish up the other side of the driveway tomorrow. Then I'm spraying last round of roundup to kill everything that is germinating before seeding Monday. Crazy to think next weekend I should have seedlings all over the lawn. Needless to say, I can't wait for this.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

The GCI seed is germinating quickly, my test cup has roots on about 50% of seeds after 3 days, I expect green shoots in the next 24-48 hours. You'll have great success I'm sure.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Pezking7p said:


> The GCI seed is germinating quickly, my test cup has roots on about 50% of seeds after 3 days, I expect green shoots in the next 24-48 hours. You'll have great success I'm sure.


That is insane. It's been a long month. Definitely far more intensive than I expected. It would have been much easier had I had access to a tractor. But the end is in sight, and I'm ready to start seeing some fruit of my labor.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Got almost all of the leveling done today. Have one small area to finish tomorrow. Then final round of roundup. Sunday I plan to spray Humic12 and Air8, then get seed down Monday. It's finally coming together.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Looking great! I'm doing GCI TTTF as well in my reno. His seed does germinate very quickly as others have pointed out. I have a few test plots in my journals that you can check out. I'll be updating one of them with some pictures tomorrow morning.

I had seed down on Wednesday, but I don't think going later will necessarily hurt you. The ideal soil temps are in range, but the idea of going earlier is that if there are any issues like washout, fungus, etc., there's time to fix it and throw more seed down.

Best of luck though and I'll be following along!


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Yesterday was the last round of glypho to kill everything that started to germinate. Was planning on seeding today, but we got a ton of rain and are slated to get more tonight. It was a very welcome rain, even though it put me back another day. It helped level out the dry, sandy soil I spread last week. Seed will be going down tomorrow, along with RGS, H12, Xstart, and peat. Fingers crossed.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Got the seed down yesterday. I learned to get a slit seeder to bed the seeds in next time. I hand raked 5500 sq ft. There was no rain in the forecast. Got one heck of a downpour the second I finished rolling the seed in. Everything is pretty flat, so doesn't look like the seed moved around too much. Applied starter fert late last night after things dried out a little. Sprayed RGS and tenacity this morning. Hope that wasn't too long after seeding (15 hours). Got the sprinklers up and running. Now I nervously wait. I feel like nothing will happen because I'm paranoid, but it seems like a lot of people have success with this seed, so hopefully I'll be alright.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

If you plant it, it will rain...

As long as you didn't see runoff and streams, you should be alright. As for RGS and tenacity you're good with the timing. As long as you keep the ground moist you'll start to see germination about 3-4 days after seed down. You'll then start to see it noticeably coming through around day 5. At least that was my experience with the GCI TTTF I just planted. I'm 3 DAG and have almost all areas with germ coverage. Just know that they're not all going to show coverage evenly and some areas will take longer than others. Follow my journal so you have an idea what to expect and don't psych yourself out haha. I'm about a week ahead of you with the same seed and similar products. Only real difference is you used X Start while I used GREENEpop, but both are carbon infused fertilizers so should perform relatively the same.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I've been checking in on yours. I haven't had time to add peat moss yet. How important is that? I bought it, but quite frankly, I'm so exhausted I don't feel like doing that tonight when I get home. I just want one evening to relax.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

I will tell you that the areas that have peat moss coverage are germinating better than the areas that aren't covered. It is finicky though and difficult to get it to stay in place. One heavy rain fall and it will wash it out. I would look at your weather forecast and if it's clear, I would do it. Put a light layer down, about 1/8", and then hand water it with the finest after droplet size you can. I used a misting setting on my hose nozzle. This will help moisten it a bit and then run the sprinklers to penetrate through it and get to the soil. Once the peat is wet it will stay wet, but getting it to that point takes some patience.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

We are forecasted to get storms on Saturday and Sunday.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Hmm, I'd say go for it. I mean inevitably it's going to get washed out. By then your seedlings should be germinating and putting roots down. I would put it down tomorrow and get it moist to set it in and try to stick it to the soil.

Another option is to head to Lowes and grab some Pennington Slopemaster. Easier to apply than peat moss as you can broadcast it and did a great job for me. I actually used both and think it was overkill, but again the areas that have peat moss coverage are doing the best. If it does wash out you can always spread some more.


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## Pezking7p (May 23, 2020)

Hey Matt, just jumping in to say my GCI TTTF seed germinated very well and quickly, even with mediocre watering and no seed bed prep. I only overseeded, but even the bare areas that I seeded are germinating well.

I think based on your excellent seed bed, if your watering is spot on you'll be fine with no peat moss. If you add peat moss, it will only help things by keeping moisture levels more consistent.

I will say, In a week your stress levels will be very high, and it might be worth the peace of mind to just put the peat down, so that you can RELAX next weekend, rather than stressing about whether or not you did the right thing. But I can also feel your pain after all the work you have done!


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## Matthew_73 (Jul 9, 2019)

I am unsure of what you are saying... the main area was the MAIN concern.. The 3 ft strip is not a BIG issue... I did a full reno on the front area.. I applied Peat Moss to the whole area...


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I started to see a little germination last night (4 day mark) just as expected. I assume it should start taking off this week.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Nice! Four days was about my timing too for first germ signs. Day five was nothing crazy, just seeing more coverage. Day six was the take off.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I look forward to that. I leave in the morning for the week, so the wife will be taking care of the watering. I was planning on getting timers, but the spigot is right outside the front door, and since I work from home, it felt like a waste. My stress is basically gone. It's germinating well, I put in the work, now all we do is water. Going to look like a different house when I get home in a week.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

My wife sent me this a bit ago. Starting to really come up well. Not the best pic, and only of the one area, but it's doing well. What's up with the pink seedlings? Wasn't expecting that. Seed went down 7 days ago. Stress level dropping.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Looks like the peat moss is drying out. I would up the watering a bit. What's the current schedule?

Looking good though for seven days after seed down! Great germ so far.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I didn't end up using peat moss. That's just dirt. Watering 3-4x/day for 10 minutes. What should I adjust to since I have full germination?


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Gotcha, just zoomed in a bit. It could be the lighting that's making some of the grass loom that color. If that's just dirt then it may be ok moisture wise. As long as it's not drying out you're fine, I'm running roughly the same with my sprinkler setup at around 10 mins 4x per day. Very weather dependent though.

You'll have a better idea once you're back and can get your own eyes on it. I'd have the wife get out there with a flashlight once the sun goes down and take some pics at ground level, which will give you a better indication of the coverage. The sporadic germ coverage is normal and could be influenced by a plethora of things. With that tree for instance, some spots could just be getting more or less sunlight than others, could be getting more or less moisture... it's all a balancing act, but ultimately it will all catch up to itself.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

6 days after germination and we are looking pretty good. Heading home tomorrow to get a better idea of how things are looking. From the photo my wife sent today, it's filling in nicely. Will take better pics tomorrow and assess the progress. From what I can tell, there aren't too many thin/bare spots.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Got back home after being gone for the week. Left 1 DAG with the seeds just starting to poke through. Came home to what is pictured below. Extremely good coverage. Only a couple areas that will get more seed tomorrow. I'm guessing I had edge guard on when I spread the starter fert judging by the pattern. Overall I am extremely pleased thus far. I am planning on mowing in 8-10 days, along with RGS, milo, 18-0-1 green punch. Also want to look into urea apps. Really trying to push root growth hard before winter.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Figured I'd hop over here and respond to keep it central to your reno journal. To me that looks like tenacity bleaching. I remembered you said some seedlings were growing in pink (I thought it was just dry dirt, but I looked closer at the picture and see it now), which is a sign of over application of tenacity. It could have been the swath of your sprayer's nozzle wasn't uniform. That doesn't look like granular fertilizer burn to me and more like a spray pattern. The good news is, the grass seems to be growing and it will eventually grow it out. This TTTF blend is hardy!

As far as your N apps go, if you germ'd on 9/13 I would wait until around 9/27 for your first feeding, 2 weeks post germ. Personally, I wouldn't bother with milo because it's organic and slow release, so you won't see much from it and with the cooler temps coming it's going to take even longer to break down and become useful for the plant. It's not going to hurt anything, more of a time/ROI kind of thing.

For that feeding I'd opt for a lower dose spoon feeding of fast release N and keep that going every two weeks. You can use urea (46-0-0) or AMS (21-0-0) and your target app rate needs to be 0.25lbs N/1000. If you go granular, it's quite difficult to spread 46-0-0 uniformly at that low of a rate, so I'd opt for 21-0-0 if you want to go granular and if you can find it. Personally, I'm spraying my N apps to make it easier.

They can be a bit difficult to find, but if there's a Site One near you that'll be your best bet. If not, look for some kind of landscape co-op, try googling em in your area. Again, can be tough to find. If you have trouble and online is your only option, check out Greenway Biotech. They have water soluble AMS and Urea. They're going to be a lot more expensive per pound, but it'll work if you can't find it locally.

For AMS to hit 0.25#N/1000 you need 1.19lbs of fertilizer per 1000. For Urea it'll be 0.54 lbs/1000.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I figured it was tenacity bleaching. Seems to be getting better. I can get 46-0-0 Granular at my site one, but according to their website that's it. No soluble or AS. I'll call tomorrow to verify. I'll also call a few co-ops to see what's available. What if I can't find AS or soluble urea?


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

I'd go there and see what they can order for you. They can generally get stuff from other locations pretty quickly.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Also, you may be able to just break it down in hot water. Mix it up as best you can and melt it down, let the debris fall and settle out and then pour the liquid into your sprayer. Unless you have a fine strainer which will make life easier.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

My guess is the type of urea they have will dissolve in water. I could be completely wrong about that but I know i just bought a normal bag of urea last year and it dissolved with no issues. I would think the only time you would have issues is if you bought a coated urea.


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## TreyDoc (Aug 16, 2018)

If you need a bit of P and K, Walmart has 10-10-10 on clearance (YMMV) and Lowes has some 12-12-12 and 13-13-13 both regular and some have them on clearance. Those 3 will all be a mix of Urea and AMS.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

@OnTheLawn I finally got around to calling my Site One. I have a number of them around me. He said none of them carry AMS. They do have urea and he also said they have some 24-0-4 and 24-0-5. What're your thoughts there? I'd prefer to stick with granular for the spoon feeding rather than getting into dissolving urea if possible. My lawn is high in phos, so I like the sound of his suggestions.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I just called a co-op nearby and they have 50lb bags of AMS for $12. That sounds pretty appealing.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Here are a couple photos I snapped this morning before heading out. Looking good. The white grass is starting to green up more. Guessing the white will be gone in a week or so.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Urea 46-0-0 will work, but it's going to be difficult to spread it if you're going granular for spoon feeding. It's doable, but difficult to get uniform coverage since it's only going to be about a half pound of actual fertilizer per 1000 sq ft.

It depends on the makeup of the other options, but if they're anything less than around 70% fast release nitrogen it might not fit the bill.

I ordered Hi Yield AMS from Amazon, which was about $12 for a 4lb bag. Not terribly expensive, but more per pound than getting it in bulk. I boiled water and poured it onto the fertilizer in a mixing bowl and it dissolved very quickly. Within a minute. I had no issues with clogging on the sprayer and it worked well. You could certainly do the same with Urea.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Just saw your post about the AMS. Go grab that! It'll store for a long time and dissolving it isn't as crazy as it sounds. As long as the water is warm it'll break down very quickly.

Also, incredible progress! Those bleached spots are definitely growing out and will be gone soon. Looks awesome man that coverage is incredible!


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

@OnTheLawn Awesome. I'll go grab the AMS Monday morning. They're closed on the weekend. I'm not sure if I'll ever use the whole bag though! So I need 1.19 lb of AMS per 1k. How does that translate into liquid? Use 1 gal/M I'm guessing?

Edit: I just remembered I have some 18-0-1 Green Punch. Should I just spoon feed with that? I don't see why not.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Haha you likely will not use the whole bag, but always nice to have on hand! You can also use it for shrubs/ornamentals and what not.

And yes, 1.19 lbs of actual fert per 1000 to get your 0.25 lbs N/1000. As far as carrier volume, I'll have to defer to others here. I'm not sure how much is required per 1000, but I would imagine a gallon would do it. I feel like I remember reading somewhere that the carrier volume needed to be higher, somewhere in the 2-3 range, but I can't quite recall.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Good deal. I edited my last post, adding that I have liquid Fert already. Is that fine to use to spoon feed? I'm assuming it is but don't know a ton about fertilizers yet.


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Technically, yes you could. JP formulates his stuff to be low input anyway, so may work. One gallon is 10.5 lbs and 18% N, so 1.89 Lbs N in a gallon. That's around 0.015 Lbs N /oz, so about 16.5 oz to get you to 0.25 Lbs N/1000.

Now the N in GreenePunch is broken down between Urea, ammoniacal, and nitrate N. Mostly Urea, so most of it's going to be fast release. It doesn't say on the label how much is slow release (if any), so not exactly sure to be honest.

As you can see the recommended rates on GP are around 0.25lbs N/1000. Again, JP is a low input guy and likes to spoon feed. In the seeding pack the rate is actually less than that. Anyways, ultimately yes I think you could use GP to spoon feed!


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Sounds good. I'll go ahead and do an app this weekend. I only have 1 gallon, so I only have enough for 1 app with a little left over. In one of his videos, he said the N content is 14% urea and 4% ammonia. Maybe it was Al that said that. So I'll go ahead and use it for the first app and get the AMS for the remainder. How many apps do I want to get in before winter sets in?


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Either way will work. I think I would personally do the opposite and have a full rate of GP as my last app of the season, but splitting hairs there. As far as capping the season, that will be dictated by temps and when the grass starts to go dormant. Likely something in November, but needs to be played by year.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

When it comes to filling in thin spots, I can't seem to get anything to germinate. I'm assuming it's because I'm not roughing up the soil. But how to you get seed to soil contact without damaging the existing seedlings?


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## bf7 (May 11, 2020)

mfran615 said:


> When it comes to filling in thin spots, I can't seem to get anything to germinate. I'm assuming it's because I'm not roughing up the soil. But how to you get seed to soil contact without damaging the existing seedlings?


I water the area first. Drop seed. Then roll or lightly stomp on it. Top with peat moss. It shouldn't disturb the seedlings much if at all. I re-seeded my entire 9,500 sq ft this way with a roller.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Today was the second official mow, but the first time of really taking anything off the top. Last week really just picked up leaves. I think the warmer temps are starting to kick it in gear. The early cold weather and my inconsistent application of tenacity really slowed down growth. Tomorrow is the weekly dose of AMS right before temps get back into the low 70s for several days. Still some thin areas that I know for a fact I'll need to overseed next year, but will likely wait until the fall so I can keep on top of weeds early on. I mowed tonight at 2-3/4".


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## BH Green (Apr 9, 2020)

Looking great! It should fill in A lot more too once it starts tillering.


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## ksturfguy (Sep 25, 2018)

Looking good!


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

Look how dark and light your foot steps are. If you were able to really lay that grass over with a good striping kit those stripes would be very vibrant


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Cdub5_ said:


> Look how dark and light your foot steps are. If you were able to really lay that grass over with a good striping kit those stripes would be very vibrant


Looking forward to that next year!


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## Cdub5_ (Jun 12, 2019)

mfran615 said:


> Cdub5_ said:
> 
> 
> > Look how dark and light your foot steps are. If you were able to really lay that grass over with a good striping kit those stripes would be very vibrant
> ...


Dang that's gonna be awesome! Can't wait to see it :thumbup:


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## OnTheLawn (Jul 23, 2020)

Coverage looks really when and we'll distributed without overcrowding. That's going to be a huge deal come late spring when the grass really grows up and thickens. Well done!

I'm already fearing some areas when it comes to overcrowding for next summer and humidity, so may have to thin some areas out.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

I sure hope so. There are some areas that the rain washed out that'll need seed next fall. But overall not bad. I have some green stuff that's forming on the soil in one area. Any idea what this is?


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## bencrabtree27 (Jan 8, 2019)

Are you sure you didn't try and spray paint the bald brown area 

Is that in shade?


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

It's in filtered sunlight. Good bit of shade but not full shade. I think it's moss coming back. Never seen moss in its beginning stages but I suspect it is.


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## uts (Jul 8, 2019)

Might just be algae. I wouldn't worry about it. You can dormant seed this area and it should be good in spring. I would just mow and fertilize (spoon feed weekly) and mow some more. Every 3 days or sooner to encourage maturation/tillering.

Looks really good.


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

uts said:


> Might just be algae. I wouldn't worry about it. You can dormant seed this area and it should be good in spring. I would just mow and fertilize (spoon feed weekly) and mow some more. Every 3 days or sooner to encourage maturation/tillering.
> 
> Looks really good.


Thanks. How do I know when to stop mowing and watering for the season?


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## mfran615 (Sep 2, 2020)

Haven't been on here in a while. Wrapping up the season up here in NE Ohio. Last mow was Tuesday of this week and winterizer will go down soon. I am very please with the progress since seed went down 9/8. Looking forward to the spring.


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