# Help! Blue Grass Lawn



## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

Hello Helpers, I live in Central Ohio, and have been a homeowner for 15 years. I even have irrigation system for the lawn, and water bills run around $200/month of my 8,000 sqft lawn size during the 2 hot summer months.

Anyway, last 2 years my Kentucky Blue grass lawn seems getting into worse shape. Every springs, I notice some patches of "light brown" grass which I think had died over the winter, and my grass are getting thin! So that means Bittercress have flourished last 2 years. Following is what I did for my lawn care last 10 years. Please tell me what am I missing. The first 4 points below are consistent.

1) Every spring early-to-mid April, I put down fertilizer with Crab grass prevention. This is done mostly using Scott products.

2) Around mid-to-end of May, I will put down Scott Step 2 fertilizer with broad leaf weed herbicide.

3) Every year, I probably use spray-herbicide 2 to 3 times to spread on targeted area with weeds. Mostly broadleaf.

4) The summer season, I would may skip fertilization. If I do fertilization, I typically using Scott Turf Builder All Season or other generic brand fertilizer.

Between Summer and Autumn, I will do at least once fertilization.

5) In autumn, I may skip fertilization. Some times I may use Scott Turf Builder All Season, or use generic brand winter fertilizer or Scott Winterguard.

6) Every 2 years or so during last 4 years, I would put down $60 worth of blue grass seeds during Sept with sprinkle turn on every day for a short period to help with the seeding.

7) I did aeration once every year or every 2 years.

Please see the attached pictures in the link below. Some part of my lawn are thick, some are thinning out. I know central Ohio is notorious for clay soil, and I think my builder was giving only thin layer of Top soil when house was built.

Question:
A) What do you think that I am missing here? I am thinking going nuclear with putting down say $200 worth of bluegrass seeds, and then put on an inch layer of top soil during Sept. Heard this really help with seeds germination and giving a better soil base.

B) I recently read that I should put down either Crab Grass preventer or Broad leaf weed (Scott Step 2) during the late autumn to kill those Bittercress or over-winter-weeds. Any recommendation?

Thanks much!
Sean

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R8iMq1m3ZaxHGzUM2


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

I will let the bluegrass experts chime in, but while we wait for them let me ask- have you had a soil test done? Also, you've had an extended winter there, right? I would imagine the grass hasn't really woken up yet. I think after a light raking and a mow (once things start growing) you'll be looking a lot better. There does appear to be a good deal of dead grass there though.


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

Hi sftong! Welcome to TLF!

What's your watering frequency/schedule like? How often are you mowing and at what height?


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

@sftong, welcome to TLF!

I encourage you to first read this post by @g-man - Welcome to Cool Season Lawn Forum.

Then let us know what "tier" you want to be at. This way, we can cater some of our recommendations. :thumbup:


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

Wow Thanks guys for the quick response.

I am not looking for super nice lawn, just "Tier 1" where basic work needed to maintain a thick lawn with minimal weeds.

Jesse, no, I have never done soil test. The winter here is from around early Nov through the mid-April when the grass stop growing and I need no mowing.

Chris, during hot summer month without rain, I water 3 times a week. For the 10 zones of my 8,000 sqft lawn, I water about 20 minutes each zone beginning 4am. But many times this isn't enough, as my lawn still sort of stress out with brownish green and not bouncing back after I walk on it.

Eric, I just want "tier 1".

Thanks all!


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

Here's what I would do:

1) Stop using Scotts products. They are too expensive, imo. I have to admit, I too was a Scotts product user until I learned the ways. :lol:

2) Transition into using Organic Fertilizers. Something like Milorganite. You can follow their fertilizer schedule (I think 4 times a year).

3) Dealing with crabgrass. I would invest in a sprayer and prodiamine. Up front cost might be a little more compared to buying Scotts, but this will last you awhile and you avoid fertilizing the lawn way too early in the Spring. As for timing in the Spring, a good indicator is when the forsythia blooms. That's when you apply the pre-emergent. Also, you will want to spray again in the Fall (around labor day is good) to prevent those winter weeds.

4) Spot spray weeds instead of using weed and feed.

5) Mow as often as you can. Adjust mowing height throughout the season. IE. You might wan to mow short in the Spring, then mow higher during Summer and then mow shorter again in the Fall.

Ok, this might be borderline Tier 1.5... but that is what I would do. :thumbup:


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## chrismar (May 25, 2017)

My advice would be this:

1) Mow high, especially during the warmer summer months, and try not to take off more than 1/3 of the grass at a time. That's just a guideline, not a hard/fast rule. I break it all the time.

2) Do an irrigation test to see how long it takes your system to put down 1" of water. Then water your lawn that amount of time over 1 or 2 days per week (eg: if it takes your system 80 minutes to water an inch, run each zone for 80 minutes one time per week or each zone 40 mins twice a week). To do this get some empty tuna cans, cat food cans or similar and place them all around the yard. Run each zone for 10 or 20 minutes and measure what's in the can. Multiple by whatever it takes to get to an inch and then multiple the time by that amount as well.

3) Fertilize on/around the holidays- Memorial Day, July 4, and Labor Day. Avoid any synthetic fert in August. Make sure you're putting down the appropriate amounts for your size yard. A soil test will help here, especially if you want to get to "the next level".

4) Any weed n feed that I've ever used has been mainly for the feed. Granular weed control doesn't work too well, in my experience. Pick up some Weed B Gone Max (WBG) and Weed B Gone Clover, Chickweed and Oaxalis (CCO) from your big box store (HD, Lowes, Wal-Mart, etc). Get the concentrate if you have a sprayer, or the ready to spray (RTS) if you don't. I don't know if they even make CCO in RTS, but let's assume they do. Spray the unwanted weeds with the WBG. If it goes away, good, if not try the CCO 10-14 days later.

5) Maintain. From the pics it looks like you have a good foundation, it just needs a little TLC.

Good luck!


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## SNOWBOB11 (Aug 31, 2017)

Also definitely don't want to skip the fall fertilizing. It's probably the most important time of year to give the lawn nitrogen. Think about getting some synthetic 46-0-0 urea and using that in the fall. Here's a good link to fall fertilizing https://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=753.


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

ericgautier said:


> Here's what I would do:
> 
> 1) Stop using Scotts products. They are too expensive, imo...
> 
> ...


Eric, yeap, I did mostly what you suggested here already, except the Organic fertilizers + spot-treatment of Crab grass. I cannot spot treat crabgrass, because I don't know where they will emerge. So the pre-emergent and cover all area, is the only option for me. And regarding weeds, I mentioned in point (3) on 1st post that I spot treat them during summer / autumn.

I mow low during spring and Autumn, and mow high during summer at the 2nd highest setting on my mower. During Spring Autumn, I mow once a week, while in summer once every 2 weeks due to low growth rate of blue grass and some stress.

However, my grass has been getting thinner and thinner. What's going on?!

Thanks


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

chrismar said:


> My advice would be this:
> 
> 1) Mow high, especially during the warmer summer months ...
> 
> ...


Crhis,

1) Yes, I mow low in Spring and Autumn every week, mow high during summer every 2~3 weeks due to slow growth and some stress.

2) Watering 1" every time, 3 weeks a week ... think my water bill would get bumped to $400 / month. That's a little crazy. My neighbor across my street, his lawn is very green during summer, and he told me his secret -- Start water before heat arrive, and water everyday but just a little. tip is, Water before blue grass is getting stressed by heat, and keep it stay moist with just minimal water. Not sure if this is a sound idea, but I am not following his tip yet.

3) As mentioned in the 1st post, between July 4 summer and Labor Day, I would fertilize at least once, and sometimes twice exactly according to your schedule. If I skip summer fertilization, I would sure do a winter fertilization, or vice versa. Or fertilize both times.

4) After Scott step 2 Broadleaf weed applied in mid-to-end of May, I would applied weed-be-gone + chickweed on targeted area. I mixed up the concentrate, Yes, I add both the 250-broadleaf + Tough Weed (chickweed) concentrate, dilute in sprayer, and shoot on all weeds. Twice a year typically, around July and Sept.

But I see that my grass is thinning out. .... What am I missing.

And about the Bitter cress, should I put down Scott Step 1 Crabgrass, or Step 2 Broadleaf in Oct to kill these over-winter weeds?

Thanks


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

SNOWBOB11 said:


> Also definitely don't want to skip the fall fertilizing. It's probably the most important time of year to give the lawn nitrogen. Think about getting some synthetic 46-0-0 urea and using that in the fall.


Bob, so I got this wrong -- I thought Over-winter fertilizer should promote root-health, so I would use generic 12-12-12 fertilizer?

I don't care about if my lawn looked nice over winter or 1st to spring up. I am looking to have thick compact grass, so I spent less time on weeding.

But my grass are thinning out ...


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## ericgautier (Apr 22, 2017)

sftong said:


> However, my grass has been getting thinner and thinner. What's going on?!
> 
> Thanks


Short answer, you might be burning your grass.

Just look at the labels on the Scotts products you are applying...

Crabgrass Preventer


Weed and Feed


Summer


If you must use Scotts, just use the crabgrass preventer in the Spring and in the Fall again to avoid winter weeds. Then use Organic Fertilizer in between, avoid the weed and feed.


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

@sftong your lawn does look like bluegrass and I don't think it looks bad, certainly looks salvageable.

I would recommend a longer acting Pre-emergent in the spring, either Barricade or Dimension, you may have to source these from SiteOne (John Deere Landscapes) or another landscape supplier.

I like the idea of organic feeding (Milorganite/corn/alfalfa) with maybe 1-2 synthetic drops in the spring. Feed the microbes, feed the soil.

Given your weed pressure and thinning grass (per your description) I'm wondering if you don't need to "push" your current bluegrass to spread. To do this I would recommend another application of pre-emergent in the late summer (you can't overseed) and an aggressive fall nitrogen plan. This would provide pre-emergent activity against any germinating weeds, reduce watering (shallow watering that new seedlings need and weeds love) and allow the turf to thicken up.

I don't see any signs of fungus, snow mold, etc from the pictures.

I wonder if a soil conditioner would also be of benefit. You can make your own, but an expensive product or just consider baby shampoo.

I don't think you need a lot of effort to accomplish your goal.

Am I missing something?


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

probasestealer said:


> ...I like the idea of organic feeding (Milorganite/corn/alfalfa) with maybe 1-2 synthetic drops in the spring. Feed the microbes, feed the soil.
> ...
> I don't see any signs of fungus, snow mold, etc from the pictures.


Yes, I have a few spots, probably less than 5% that have grown some mushrooms. This spot is heavily shaded as the house completely shade this area, and as such, the moss has taken over like 50% of this area.

There is also about another 5% of spot under 2 big trees that the grass is getting thinned out.

Any recommendation is appreciated. I don't mind some labor as these 2 areas are small.

Thanks again


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## probasestealer (Apr 19, 2018)

Shade is always a struggle. Creeping red fescue may be an option if you want grass. Grass has a hard time competing with tree roots and does worse with the addition of shade.
My rule is if I can't get grass to grow after a few years, it's time to expand the natural areas, I love hostas and Autumn ferns. I realize this isn't always practical. But fighting mother nature sucks.
Some even embrace the moss. But this is a lawn forum...


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## Suburban Jungle Life (Mar 1, 2018)

Moss? I wonder what your ph is. Soil test time?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@sftong welcome.

I live in Indy and we have similar weather patterns. From the image you posted, the lawn looks starved. I would target 0.75-1.0lb of nitrogen in the growing months until the lawn thickens up. Any source works, even scotts. Menards has great products for a better price.

A soil test ($16-25) will help understand if your are low on some key nutrients (phosphorus and potassium). It is really easy to do, grab a shovel and send slices from 0-6in of soil from multiple areas in the yard. USPS flat rate small box ($7) and that's it.

The recommendation of 1in of water is for ~an entire week. It is better for the roots to develop to apply water and get the deeper layer of soil with water than just the top inch with daily watering. But, the summer with our soils (assuming it is similar to Indy)are a challenge. If you let our soils dry to much, the become brick and won't absorb water easily. So, I do reduce my amount to 0.5in and closely watch the lawn. It starts to turn ash green, it means it needs to be watered. This means I end up watering every 3-4 days.


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## sftong (Apr 19, 2018)

Hello Helpers, some updates here regarding my soil. I use a DIY tool kit and found my lawn soil to be pretty Alkaline, very low in Potash, and need some boost in Phosphorous and Nitrogen. Again, I live in Central Ohio with tons of clays in my soil.

Based on my initial study and checking around, seems like I need 3 things:
1) Sulfur to lower the pH -- https://www.homedepot.com/p/20-lb-Fast-Acting-Sulfur-100510896/203342315

2) Milogranite as some recommend here. But it is not cheap, found better price at Walmart $11.57 / 36 pound bag. I need 3 bags just for 1 application -- https://www.walmart.com/ip/Milorganite-Organic-Nitrogen-All-Purpose-Long-Lasting-5-4-0-Fertilizer-36-lbs/16794889

3) Chicken poop.

4) Potash? Any recommendation?

5) Phosphorous and recommendation?

Can I apply all 5 above in 1 application?

Thanks
Sean


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