# Small UK Lawn (3 Cultivar KBG Grow)



## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi All - first time posting! I've spent a couple of years remodeling my back garden, torn up some of the concrete hardscaping and put in wooden decking regrading in the process, now the hardscaping is done it's about time to do the grass from seed.

Have spent most of the summer fallowing the bare earth alternating between hoeing and Glyphosate to get as much of the resident seed as possible. Looking to lay down seed in the next couple of weeks as the heat comes out of the summer.

The area I am going to seed is about 22m² all pretty decent topsoil which I am going good to dig in some Fish, Blood and Bone before I thrower down. Now, I'm fan of the colour of Kentucky Bluegrass, or Smooth-stalked Meadow Grass as we call it, as there is a fair abundance of KBG in the local area due to it growing wild on the south downs.

The Plan

*Coverage*
22m²

*Sowing Rate*:
25g per m²

*Total Required Seed*:
600g

*Composition*:
30% / 180g Festuca rubra - Red Fescue
10% / 60g Agrostis capillaris - Common Bent
60% / 360g Poa pratensis - Kentucky Bluegrass

Hoping the mix of grasses will give me a good amount of KBG balanced by other grasses. Or alternatively I have no idea what I am doing.

_All suggestions, advice and feedback appreciated._


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## Fronta1 (Jul 11, 2017)

http://thelawnforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=862


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Ok so I need to review the seeding rate based upon a weighted average, I'll do that. Thanks.


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## Ware (Jan 28, 2017)

Richard Slater said:


> Hi All - first time posting!


Welcome to TLF! :thumbup:


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Ware said:


> Welcome to TLF! :thumbup:


Thanks


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Welcome to TLF! Is the area mostly sunny, or is it shaded by trees? Is the area flat or on a hill? Can you post any pictures of your progress so far?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

And what are your typical summer and winter temperatures.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

The area is flat, it has sun most of the day only obscured by fences when the sun is at its lowest. Typically summer temperatures are about 25℃ and winters are mild, rarely get lower than 4℃.

I don't have meaningful pictures at the moment as I am in the process of replacing all of the fences which has resulted in fence panels everywhere.


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## Pete1313 (May 3, 2017)

Lots of sun and cool temps sound like a perfect area for kentucky bluegrass. I'm not sure I would like the mix with bent and red fescue. Bent stands out when compared to bluegrass and red fescue is a finer bladed grass better suited for shade. All 3 different species have different nitrogen and watering needs as well. Do other lawns in the area typically have bluegrass mixed with bent? What are your thoughts of just using a blend of only kentucky bluegrass cultivars or maybe a mix of bluegrass and ryegrass which would also do really well in sunny, cool climates. With a bluegrass blend or a bluegrass/ryegrass mix you would have a more uniform appearance.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

I second pete1313 post. With a low of 4c (40f) and a high of 25c (77f), that's perfect weather for a kbg lawn.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

I would love to have a KBG only lawn, it's not something that happens in the UK - lawns are always a blend of species. That being said I have no objection to doing it differently from everyone else.

First problem I have is buying the KBG cultivars in the UK, I don't think the common cultivars in the US such as Midnight are available and whilst we have our own equivalents, seed producers don't sell directly to consumers.

Any suggestions?


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

In a quick search online I found this.

https://www.thegrassseedstore.co.uk/product/drought-resistant-lawn/ KBG, Rye and tall fescue

Maybe give them a call and see if they sell you a pure seed or could place you in contact with someone.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Thanks, I spoke to The Grass Seed Store and they do carry both Miracle and Evora.

They pointed me back to the big UK seed houses for the full range, specifically DLF, Barenberg and Germinal - I've tried talking to DLF before but they are only interested in selling by the pallet and are not willing to tell me who stocks which varieties for confidentiality reasons.

Is there value in just taking what The Grass Seed Store stocks and giving it a try, it's only 22m². I will try talking to the other online shops and the seed houses to see if I can find a wider selection of cultivars.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

The names of some cultivars would likely be different than usa. If you want a kbg lawn, then try what variety they have at hand. You could always kill it and change it in the future.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

They are different for example in the USA you have Midnight and Midnight II have been breed for that deep Blue-Green colour, or colour , whereas in the UK DLF produce Rhythm which has been breed for a similar purpose.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

So here is the new plan:

*Coverage:* 22m² or 240ft²
*Sowing Rate:* 35g per m²
*Total Required Seed:* 770g + 30% for greenhouse plugs

*Composition:*
33% / 257g Poa Pratensis (Mercury) - Smooth Stalked Meadow Grass
33% / 257g Poa Pratensis (Miracle) - Smooth Stalked Meadow Grass
33% / 257g Poa Pratensis (Sombrero) - Smooth Stalked Meadow Grass
Total: £28

Other Prep:
Starter Fertiliser: 5KG Preseed Fertilizer @ 50g/m² = £12.00
Top Soil: Westland Top Soil * 20 = £82.80

Anyone else who happens to be in the UK I highly recommend the folks at The Grass Seed Store who whilst haven't been able to supply the seed as they only stock one KBG cultivar suitable for turf. In the end I am sourcing my seeds directly from DLF.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2018)

Hi Richard

Did you ask DLF to make this smooth meadow grass mix up for you? And how did it turn out? Do you have any pictures?

Ihanks
Darren


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Richard Slater hasn't been online since 2017. It is normal for folks to go quiet during the winter. Try sending him an email via the profile link.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi Darren,

To be honest the grow didn't go as well as I would have liked, however, I don't believe it is anything to do with the climate or cultivars. Sadly I had a member of my family pass away and the lawn was the least of my worries, what I did get down has done fairly well given the fact I didn't water it anywhere near as often as I should have, I'm going to be away quite a bit this summer but I am going to be experimenting with what I have left of my DLF seed in other patches to see if I can get some more coverage across the lower part of the lawn.

With regards to DLF, they were initially slow and quite confused that I didn't want a PRG mix but once I got past that they were very helpful, took payment via MasterCard over the phone and shipped priority even though I wasn't ordering very much.

I will try and grab some pictures when it isn't tipping it down with rain, not much to see but happy to answer any questions you may have.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Some pictures... finally...
























Higher res and alternative photos are available on Lightroom.


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## Guest (May 18, 2018)

Thanks Richard. I got a pure mix from DLF Ireland and they were more than helpful. Haven't got round to seeding yet but thanks for the info and pics &#128077;


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Do post up your progress, it's great to see different grows, methods and practices coming together. I'm always learning so another European grower would be a welcome addition.


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## jessehurlburt (Oct 18, 2017)

Looks pretty good to me!


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

I've just been doing a little bit of work on this lawn actually:


 Took the HOC down to 35mm (i.e. ~1.4in)
 taking soil samples,
 levelling with sand,
 Planting up my homegrown plugs in the bare spots, with Mycorrhizae
 very light top dressing again with more Mycorrhizae and bacterial inoculation
 water in and wait for the leaves to dry
 apply a foliar application of liquid iron and humic acid

Going to look good in the next couple of days


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)




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## Guest (Jul 3, 2018)

Hi Richard

It looks really good. Mine is coming along too, will have to wait til next year to see it fill in I think. Seeded in late May and took these pictures a few weeks back.

I was surprised how quick it germinated so just weeding it until it fills in now.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Looks amazing, there is something quite addictive about the actual process of establishing a new lawn. Considering doing a scorch and reseed out the front in September.


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## RCUK (Jul 16, 2018)

@Richard Slater @Darrenleecannon Hope you don't mind me posting here, I'm also in the UK and have had similar bad luck trying to find KBG suppliers. DLF (Johnsons) and Germinal have both offered to supply seeds but none of the other suppliers replied to sell direct.

DLF offered Miracle or Sombrero which are ok but minimum order is 5KG so no easy way to test in pots

Germinal offered Tetris which has slightly better colour than the two above and scored higher in the STRI tests (see attached extract from 2018 report). They offered 1KG to allow me to test the seed

Can you let me know your experience with DLF and their seeds?
How does the colour in your grass stand up in our current heat?
Did you try and source from the US? I have tried but no replies to emails or 'sorry we don't ship'
Would love to buy some of the US darker green seed varieties and test against the UK ones

Both my front and back lawns get decent amounts of sun, the front from 12-sunset.

I also turfed one of my front lawns in April this year, it is a mix of PRG, KBG and Fescues, see image. It is doing ok but don't want fescue going forward and will overseed to get the KBG % higher over the next year or so. I could take the easy route and lay this everywhere but it is obviously more costly. KBG in this lawn is called Limousine.

What I should really say is I want a super dark green lawn


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

I've been really impressed with the seed from DLF, I got three cultivars as straight 1kg bags from them of Mercury, Miracle and Sombrero and I think the colour looks great. I didn't have any issues with shipping small quantities out to me.

*Color:* The colour is good, although you do need to give it regular applications of Iron (in the form of FAS personally) to get the blue out of it.

*Water:* It's had an inch of water every week over the summer and is still looking strong so no worries on that front. I think the neighbours think I am a bit of a loon watering my grass every week though.


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## RCUK (Jul 16, 2018)

@Richard Slater Thanks mate. Any chance you can share your DLF contact here or direct message please?

Your lawn looks great!


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

It wasn't a specific individual, I just emailed their sales team and asked. I ended up talking with a couple of different individuals on the phone as they passed me about a bit trying to find someone who knew Poa Prat. well enough from a residential lawn perspective - Darren was the person in the know, but I didn't catch his surname.


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## pennstater2005 (Jul 17, 2017)

Looks amazing!


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2018)

Back again looking for some weed killer info for the bluegrass Richard. It's coming along well but notice some crabgrass in the lawn and there's surely some other weeds in there too.

Just wondering if you've used anything that's worked well. I'd love to be organic but can't get any corn gluten meal here as a pre emergent.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

There is very little available in the EU sadly, I use mechanical means to remove the invaders - I've taken to keeping a stock of home grown plugs which I use to patch the KBG once I get round to extracting the odd errant plant - the area is small enough that 30 minutes of crawling around on my hands and knees keeps it pure enough KBG so as not to notice.


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## Guest (Oct 9, 2018)

Thanks Richard. Good idea to keep some spares. I take them out by hand as well as it's also a small space. &#128077;


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## Robberthoffman (Jun 3, 2018)

Darrenleecannon said:


> Back again looking for some weed killer info for the bluegrass Richard. It's coming along well but notice some crabgrass in the lawn and there's surely some other weeds in there too.
> 
> Just wondering if you've used anything that's worked well. I'd love to be organic but can't get any corn gluten meal here as a pre emergent.


It's not organic but in the Netherlands we have a product that's called Bayer net ultra
It will kill almost everything except the grass itself


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@Richard Slater how is this looking?


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## liamjones (Apr 29, 2020)

Hi @Richard Slater @RCUK,

Im about to start a new lawn in the South East of England, norwich to specific. Aware its a little late, but thats how the house renovation has fell.

I think i want to go KBG/PRG mix and have got my eye on Sombrero KBG and Fabian PRG new 4Turf from DLF.

Soil PH is 6.5 and awaiting other results from lab.

Any thoughts on the KBG/PRG mix, ratio and sowing advice, eg. sow KBG earlier than PRG.

Thanks

Liam


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## RCUK (Jul 16, 2018)

@liamjones Welcome! A few questions below. Both of those are good, I haven't used them myself but they rate well in the 2020 BSPB list. Slightly lighter in colour to what I'm using - Tetris (KBG) and Galleon (PRG) but colour isn't everything!

- What is the size of your lawn?
- KBG seeding rate on it's own is around 10g/m2. I would start with KBG on it's own and then overseed with PRG if you want/need to. Suggest waiting on other views also. Why do you want a mix?
- Starting a new lawn now is tricky as we enter into warmer months, not impossible but more work vs starting in August/September
- Have you spoken to DLF about your required quantities?


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## liamjones (Apr 29, 2020)

Thanks for the swift response, the lawn area will be approx 200m2. It is a south facing garden with sun for most of the day.

I wanted to mix to get a more durable lawn, I've read the new 4turf PRG is super resilient to dog urine. I have a dog.

I guess I'm not set on these cultivars, they are the ones I landed on from my, albeit brief, initial investigation. Ultimately, I just want a thick, durable lawn that can be mowed to a reasonable height with a cylinder mower.

I sent DLF an email last night, awaiting response.


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## RCUK (Jul 16, 2018)

@liamjones Want to start a journal or another thread as we are hijacking this one 

Post some pictures if you can also.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi @liamjones, welcome to TLF. I agree with everything @RCUK has said.

Something to bear in mind is that mature PRG is allopathic, which means it suppresses growth in other plants - what I found in my front garden was this caused me no issues initially but the PRG slowly took over as the years go past.

My lawns suffered in 2019 as I broke my leg and was off my feet for six months, even after that was limited in what I could do. They are making their way back to normal health, I will try and get outside when the light is good and take some pictures for this thread.


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## RCUK (Jul 16, 2018)

Sorry to hear that Richard. Hope you have a swift recovery. Welcome back!


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Almost three years on the Bluegrass has coped well despite me breaking my leg, it's got a couple of patches of PRG which get smaller month by month as the KBG thickens up. I'm mostly just taking care of it occasionally transplanting plugs if I lose some small patch due a persistent weed and the subsequent nuke from orbit (glyphosate).

I mow it at about 2" (5cm) currently every 2-3 days and feed it once a month with 600g (bag rate) of Chicken Manure Pellets 4-2-1 which seems to give it a good balance of healthy growth. I'm reconsidering my fertilisation regime at the moment so that's likely to change, need to do some more research on what is available these days.


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## rokfor2000 (May 24, 2020)

I have difficulty finding KBG in UK. Scouring the Internet I stumbled on this thread and just had to get an account. Hi everyone!

Richard, great looking grass.

I have a question though. It seems many people had success with DLF, but when I contacted them asking if I could buy some Sombrero KBG on Johnsons info email they said they don't do retail. How did you manage to get them to cooperate?

I also see people with Limousine and some other cultivars, how did you manage to get them?

Any help appreciated.


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## Richard Slater (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi, rokfor2000 - welcome to TLF! It's 50% luck, 50% charm, I can give you some general tips though, not specific to seeds largely this goes for any wholesaler.


 It can help to sound like you are an expert, so calling it "Poa P.", "Poa Pratensis" or "Smooth-Stalked Meadow Grass" greases the wheels. 
 As a general rule the people you are talking to will be in sales, so hitting them up towards the end of the year, quarter or month when they are desperate to hit their sales targets yields better results.
 It's harder to say no to someone over the phone than by e-mail, so give them a ring rather than rely on e-mails.
 Generally the seed houses (DLF, Germinal, Barenbrug, etc) sell wholesale (i.e. large volumes) to retail or sports brands who sell to consumers. So if you ask for a *sample* of straight seeds (i.e. individual species, not a mix) they can often help you under the guise of customer acquisition and research partnerships.
 If you still don't get anywhere, you can sometimes 'level up' by saying "Thanks for that information, I understand you're unable to help me further, are you able to pass my contact details onto someone who might be able to help me".

All of that said, @RCUK originally went for KBG in the London area and then switched to Barenbrug's RPR Sport. I'm seriously considering following suit at some point if my Fine Fescue / Bent experiment at the front ultimately fails.


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## rokfor2000 (May 24, 2020)

Thanks for the advise 

The problem I have with Perennial Ryegrass is that as I read it needs to be overseeded every year to look good as it doesnt spread, and individual plants tend to die. I started my lawn with ASDA seed (I know ... but back than I didn't know there was more than one grass species ) Composition unknown, but apparently it largely is some kind of Ryegrass. It was great for the 1st year, but then it massively thinned out despite regular cutting and fertilisation. Last year I was very particular trying to make it thicker, never cut more then a third and fertilised as per instructions on the bag (evergreen 4 in 1 twice a year with regular fertiliser in between).

With 2 kids running around in the garden, overseeding on regular basis is something I definitely want to avoid. Otherwise I don't mind additional elbow grease.


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## bigbew (Jan 23, 2020)

I used to use ASDA seed too and it annoyed me it never told you on the box what it was. I think knowing now what I do is that it's likely annual ryegrass, comes up quick, fills in patches and looks okay. But as you say it thins quickly. It's perennial cousin is a much stronger plant.


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## g-man (Jun 15, 2017)

@rokfor2000 prg does spread. It is slow to spread compared to kbg.


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