# Advice on Game Plan



## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Hey Everyone,

Joined not too long ago, and have already learned a LOT of information. It's amazing to know how much I didn't know about lawn care...LOL

Looking for some advice on what my next steps should be for this season. Here are some quick notes;

Soil test is done
- Very low in P
- Borderline low in K
- PH is high (but due to soil in my area)

Grub BGon Max applied yesterday (noticed grubs when I did soil test)
- Only product I can really get here in Ontario...hoping it will work

Was set to get all my product from Brett Young, however they will not place orders anymore under $500. So now I will be getting my product from a sod farm not to far from me. Here is what I am thinking of doing...

- Rake Grass (done)
- Mow low (2")
- Overseed using seed from sod farm (KBG, Creeping Red Fescue, Perennial Ryegrass - don't know the mix)
- Top with Peat Moss
- Apply 5-20-20 @ 5 lbs per 1000
- Wait 6 weeks, then apply 21-7-7 (2.5 lbs per 1000), and reapply as needed

I want to overseed now as there are a lot of bare thin spots, and spots with grub damage. I am questioning if I should top dress at this time as in the past years it never really worked out for me. I have tried to fill in low spots (see pics below) but they never fill. I usually top dress certain spots every year.







I also have a bunch of weeds. I am not too sure what they all are though...especially this long thin one shooting up. Being in Canada, I do not have access to some of the products I need to get rid of these weeds. Anyone in the GTA have some product you want to share? LOL





With all of the above information, what do you think of my plan. Go with what I have above, or do something different? Or scrap all of that, focus on getting my soil numbers fixed, tackling weeds, then overseed in fall?

Thanks!


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## stevehollx (Apr 8, 2020)

Given you have okay coverage, get a pre-em down and skip spring overseeding. Tackle weeds as they come up, and prepare for a fall seeding. Maybe you could patch seed areas and not apply pre-em in those areas.

For context, I empathize with the decision to spring seed or do weed control. I'm on an uphill battle (18 months in) turning N Carolina mud in a shady lot with heavy dog usage, and I regretfully chose to seed again this spring after a fall seed, favoring coverage over weed control. I regretted the decision 6 weeks later.


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

My thoughts, if this were me:

*WEEDS*
a. The first weed you have is Dandelions
b. I'm sorry to say, the second is Poa annua, (also known as Annual Bluegrass - not to be confused with anything like Kentucky Bluegrass).

*PLAN*
1. Spot-spray Dandelions with 2-4-D (in Canada we call it Killex)
2. If 2-4-D doesn't help (you should see results within a week) with the Dandelions, you can try Roundup, just know it'll kill your grass as well, so spot spray and be _'exact' _with it.
3. If it's not too late (based on soil temp), you _could_ lay down a pre-emergent herbicide down, but I think you might be too late.
4. Get your soil in alignment - fertilize appropriately
5. Create a "fall plan" for attacking the weeds in 2021.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

My advice:
1) check out the local forum for Canada and GTA for product help
2) pull as many weeds as you can while you wait for weed control. Don't use any ecosense stuff, it's garbage. Either source and use a pre-m (but only put down coverage til Aug) and 24,d or hand pull (I use the weed hound from CT it's like $10 and does a really good job)
3) don't overseed in spring, it's basically a waste of time, I'd mow high this spring, as high as you can, so the bare spots don't fill with more dandelions etc. after you pull all the weeds
4) what have you done in the past for fert (how many lbs did you get down last yr /ksf)? You can spoon feed in to start it up. If you want to use organics in the summer there are local options beyond Brett Young. 
5)2nd week of August (or earlier if it's a mild summer) carryout your overseed by scalping (this is where mowing high helps, you'll shock the grass to give your new seed a chance) and dethatch if possible, then mow it low after a couple weeks (2 to 3" depending on how bumpy your lawn is - low enough without scalping) the rest of the year soak it and hit it with Urea hard later in Sept and early Aug.

General comment: ordering stuff from the states right now will be slow, that's why I say just hand pull. Next year worry about the chems. Shading out the weeds truly makes a difference while you mow high - speaking from experience.


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## troksd (Jul 27, 2018)

What is the active ingredient in the product below?



JBC-1 said:


> Grub BGon Max applied yesterday (noticed grubs when I did soil test)
> - Only product I can really get here in Ontario...hoping it will work


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

The active ingredients are (Bacillus thuringiensis subsp. galleriae strain SDS-502). The rep I was dealing with at Brett Young mentioned a product called Grub GONE, that was only available in the US. He said he knew of people that used it in Canada as tests and it did work. After reading about it some more, Scotts came out with their version that is now available in Canada, which has all the same active ingredients. So fingers crossed that it will work.



troksd said:


> What is the active ingredient in the product below?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

So I found a place where I can get Killex, but it would cost me around $100 for a 1 L bottle.

For pre-emergent. Where would I get that?



Ellford said:


> My thoughts, if this were me:
> 
> *WEEDS*
> a. The first weed you have is Dandelions
> ...


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Years prior I just put down fertilizer. No proper measuring, so not really sure what was actually put down per/sf.

But according to my soil test, I am very low in P, and just below in K. So I know I need to add that this year. Even If I skip the overseeding now, I will still apply the 5-20-20 to bring up those numbers.



Kaba said:


> 4) what have you done in the past for fert (how many lbs did you get down last yr /ksf)? You can spoon feed in to start it up. If you want to use organics in the summer there are local options beyond Brett Young.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

JBC-1 said:


> Years prior I just put down fertilizer. No proper measuring, so not really sure what was actually put down per/sf.
> 
> But according to my soil test, I am very low in P, and just below in K. So I know I need to add that this year. Even If I skip the overseeding now, I will still apply the 5-20-20 to bring up those numbers.
> 
> ...


Did you use bag rates? They usually are usually 0.85-1.10 lbs/ksf of N. How many ferts did you do? If you did 2 or 3 I would definitely hit it hard now with N to kick start it.

Yes absolutely be applying your 5-20-20, I assume you have calculated how much to apply to get your numbers where they need to be? You do not want to over apply P and K as they can runoff and negatively effect nature, and P and K are used up slower than N. If you need help in your calculations let me know.

As for getting pre-m, 2,4-d etc check out the hometown discussions - lots of support there.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Unfortunately I didn't use the full bag rates. I just put down what I thought was even coverage over everything.

Last year I used Scotts starter at the beginning of the year, then nothing until fall, which was the Scotts winter fertilizer.

For the 5-20-20 I will be applying 5lbs, which to my calculations will give me 0.25lbs (N), and 1lb each (P&K). However I think I need to apply another 5lbs at some point again, as my numbers are low. Here are the numbers.

Front Lawn (P = 27ppm), (K = 165ppm)
Back Lawn (P = 13ppm), (K = 125ppm)
Side Lawn (P = 5ppm), (K = 122ppm)

For the front lawn, I am thinking of skipping the 5-20-20, and just using 21-7-7. Thoughts?

Also one more question...last year looking from far, lawn looked good, and green. But up close, the bottom half of the blades were yellow. And when I would cut, all that yellow would show up, until it grew again. What was the cause for this?


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

$100 for a 1L bottle of Killex is highway robbery... Don't buy it at that cost...

Killex is just the Canadian brand that happens to carry 2-4-D as it's main ingredient. I'm assuming GTA (where you say you're from) means Greater Toronto Area? We can get 2-4-D (Killex) out here (BC) no problem, but I know it's different strokes for different folks elsewhere.

Do as @Kaba suggests and check the Hometown > Canada > {your province} discussion forum for Killex or 2-4-D (it could be branded as something else out East.

Worst case scenario - send me a PM and I'll pick up a bottle for you and will mail it.

OR - You can do the manual approach (I do this for minimal weeds). Canadian Tire/Home Depot/Lowes all sell a Dandelion Removal tool from Fiskars that is guaranteed for life (most people don't know this). You can extract the Dandelions with it and then fill in the holes with either playground sand, or mix 50-50 playground sand with soil. The lawn will take over the area in no time.

As for the yellow - I'd need to see a pic, but when you're cutting, how much are you cutting off ? You should never exceed (general rule of thumb) 1/3 of the blades per cutting and you're much better off cutting 1/4 as a max. Make sure your mower blades are sharp (some people use angle grinders; some people use bench grinders; I prefer just a metal file) - it takes no more than 10-15 minutes to sharpen a blade pre-mow and that include the time it takes to take it off the mower.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

@Ellford thanks for the offer. I may just take you up on that.

I am going to check out the Hometown section to see if there may be other options.

For the manual approach, I actually already have that exact tool. It works great, and I use it all the time. I has helped over the years, but I just find that the weeds that do come back, come back with a vengeance...LOL.

I am hoping that I don't have that yellow problem this year, but if I do, I will for sure take a pic. I sometimes may have cut a off a bit more than the I was supposed to, but it didn't really matter as the grass was always yellow on the bottom part of the blade. Blades were sharpened last year at the beginning of the season.


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

@JBC-1 Do you have a walk behind/push mower or a ride mower? Reason I'm asking is I sharpen my blades _usually _every *other *cut. Or every other week.

Cool Season grasses have 2 main growth cycles, so only sharpening at the onset of the first means your blades will be quite dull come the emergence of the 2nd growth cycles.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

I have a walk behind/push mower. Every other cut? Wow...okay, so I guess my blades were definitely dull.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Took some pictures to show my boulevard side lawn (which to me shows very thin). This is also the side which is lacking the most nutrients.


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## Kaba (Mar 29, 2019)

Definitely focus on your cultural practices that is probably the root of a lot of your issues.

I agree with the yellowing being a mowing issue, you never cut more than 1/3 of the grass blade off. You're probably cutting it down too much to the crowns if the top is green. How often do you mow? 2-3 times a week if you're putting down a good amount of fertilizer and watering.

Make sure your blades are sharp, I sharpen every month or so. Make sure you mow often and cut off less than 1/3.

Make sure you fertilize an intentional amount based on your plan.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Okay so from all the recommendations this is what I have come up with. Please tell me if you think I need to adjust.

Everything will be done tomorrow (May 2nd)

- Manually pull weeds (should I fill the holes with soil, or just leave it?)
- Mow Lawn (first mow for the season)
- Fix a few gouges in lawn where city sidewalk plow took chunks out
- Topdress, and seed the above spots - should I apply peat moss on top?
- Fertilize with 5-20-20 (5 lbs/ksf) 
- Turn on irrigation system for the year

Working on getting some Killex from another member on here, but would like to pull what I have now. I think a mix of both would work is eliminating them for good (hopefully).

Thoughts?


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Wanted to give an update on the Grub BGon Max.

Just finished manually pulling weeds. Looking into some of the holes and found grubs...however I am happy to report that all that I did find were all dead. I am hoping that is the case all over, but I only did my front lawn today. Will update more tomorrow.



JBC-1 said:


> The active ingredients are (Bacillus thuringiensis subsp. galleriae strain SDS-502). The rep I was dealing with at Brett Young mentioned a product called Grub GONE, that was only available in the US. He said he knew of people that used it in Canada as tests and it did work. After reading about it some more, Scotts came out with their version that is now available in Canada, which has all the same active ingredients. So fingers crossed that it will work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

JBC-1 said:


> - Manually pull weeds (should I fill the holes with soil, or just leave it?)


I always fill mine with a 50-50 sand/soil mix (mostly because I have PLENTY of soil). Otherwise, I'd fill 100% sand.



JBC-1 said:


> - Topdress, and seed the above spots - should I apply peat moss on top?


*YES!* Rake the seeds in and then by hand, crush/crumble the peat moss to cover the seeds, then water them in. I did this about a month and a half ago and I *would not recommend spring seeding* to anyone. I'd recommend waiting till the fall.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Ellford said:


> JBC-1 said:
> 
> 
> > - Manually pull weeds (should I fill the holes with soil, or just leave it?)
> ...


Will finish pulling weeds today, then filling the holes. Quick question...I may have scored some Killex and thought about maybe applying it today, however if I wanted to fertilize, and overseed those damaged sections should I wait?


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

If you spray 2-4-D or any herbicide for that matter, you need to wait before re-seeding. Time depends on what you put down. 2-4-D the rule of thumb is about a month. You can reseed sooner and roll the dice, but I'd wait a good 4 weeks.

You can fertilize the same time you spot treat weeds with 2-4-D (just wait about 1-2 hours so the 2-4-D dries first before applying your fertilizer).

Honestly though, I'd spot treat weeds and fertilizer NOW and then plan on re-seeding in September. It'll be much, much better. Otherwise, you're reseeding just at the onset to summer where the new seedlings and lawn are going to be under stress from the heat. September is your best friend... If you do it now, you're risking the lawn stress from the heat, plus it'll take time to germinate and then you can't mow for a couple weeks after germination so you're going to have lots of challenges if you do so now.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Perfect. Just the advice I am looking for. Thank you @Ellford

Should I mow the lawn before I apply the herbicide? Sorry for the all the questions.

Thanks!



Ellford said:


> If you spray 2-4-D or any herbicide for that matter, you need to wait before re-seeding. Time depends on what you put down. 2-4-D the rule of thumb is about a month. You can reseed sooner and roll the dice, but I'd wait a good 4 weeks.
> 
> You can fertilize the same time you spot treat weeds with 2-4-D (just wait about 1-2 hours so the 2-4-D dries first before applying your fertilizer).
> 
> Honestly though, I'd spot treat weeds and fertilizer NOW and then plan on re-seeding in September. It'll be much, much better. Otherwise, you're reseeding just at the onset to summer where the new seedlings and lawn are going to be under stress from the heat. September is your best friend... If you do it now, you're risking the lawn stress from the heat, plus it'll take time to germinate and then you can't mow for a couple weeks after germination so you're going to have lots of challenges if you do so now.


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## DiabeticKripple (Apr 14, 2019)

i had pretty good success with my spring overseed last year. This year there arent nearly as many holes and the lawn is super thick. I will be doing another overseed next week to get the rest of the spots.


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## Ellford (Apr 19, 2020)

JBC-1 said:


> Perfect. Just the advice I am looking for. Thank you @Ellford
> 
> Should I mow the lawn before I apply the herbicide? Sorry for the all the questions.
> 
> ...


*NO* - 2-4-D is a broadleaf herbicide and needs as much "leaf" as possible to coat. Wait a few days after spraying to cut your lawn.

If you cut first, there's less chance of the herbicide landing on the leaf (as there's less leaf out there).


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Considering I pulled majority of the weeds yesterday and today, what I think I am going to do it cut this week, and apply fertilizer. The lawn is pretty long and needs a cut. Plus I wont be getting the 2-4-D for about a week or so (hopefully).

Hoping the fertilizer will give the lawn plus weeds some growth, so will be able to spot spray a bit better afterwards. If I do try to overseed now, then apply the 2-4-D in two weeks, will it kill the seedlings?

I've got two or three really bad spots, that if I leave until fall I am afraid will bother me all summer...LOL


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## DiabeticKripple (Apr 14, 2019)

I would cut it now and fertilize, then when you get your 2-4d, spray it to kill the weeds, wait about a week, mow low again then overseed. I'm not sure about your area, but we have a pretty mild summer compared to the US where the guys always say don't seed in spring. My lawn doesn't really get heat stress.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Perfect. Thank you! Going to cut later today or tomorrow.



DiabeticKripple said:


> I would cut it now and fertilize, then when you get your 2-4d, spray it to kill the weeds, wait about a week, mow low again then overseed. I'm not sure about your area, but we have a pretty mild summer compared to the US where the guys always say don't seed in spring. My lawn doesn't really get heat stress.


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Did the first cut of the season yesterday, but didn't put down any fertilizer yet. With the negative temps coming in the next day or so, I figured I would wait.

I've got a question about leveling. My back yard is very uneven and bumpy. While mowing you can tell when its going over all the bumps. Now I normally topdress and overseed every year (at least for the past 3-4 years), and when doing so I am filling in those areas the most. But ever year the bumps and uneven areas keep coming back. Any tips on how I can fix this?

Here is a quick pic of the front, from the first cut for the season. HOC set to 3". Keep this height or raise it to 3.5"?


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## JBC-1 (Apr 5, 2020)

Just want to update this thread, and ask a few questions as well.

May 16th I did the following;
- Cut Low
- Applied 5-20-20 (5 lbs per 1k)
- Topdressed, Seeded and applied Peat Moss

As of today most of the spots I seeded are growing in nicely. Some spots did not take, but that's okay, as I will do a full overseed in the fall.

Now I just got my Killex package from UPS yesterday, and I will be getting a bag of 21-0-0 AS tomorrow. The grass needs to be cut, but my questions are this;

Is it too soon to apply the 21-0-0 since I put down the 5-20-20 two weeks ago? If I can put it down, what rate should I apply? There is some browning happening, and I am afraid it may be lack of N, since I only applied a small amount so far for the season. See images below.





Hoping the Killex will get rid of all of this!


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