# New Guy and Yukon Lawn Renovation



## Tellycoleman

These are my post from another Lawn Forum
April 9
I have been debating as to what type of Bermuda grass I am going to have in my yard. Moved into my dream house Sept last year and decided to do nothing until spring.
Back ground
1.6 acre lot 25,000 square feet around the house. The contractor spread cheap contractor cool season grass and So So much hay and straw you could feed a horse. I do have an irrigation system that I am currently adjusting the heads to get adequate coverage. I was not really trying to do the entire 25, 000 square feet all at once because it would be prohibitively expensive. So I decided to do front yard 10,000 and side yard 4,000 sq ft . I moved from a house that had only a 600 square ft patch of grass . So I literally have no lawn equipment.

Problems

I had an initial extreme infestation of Glyphosate Resistant Dallisgrass. My neighbors had it bad as well.
I initially purchased 2 soil savy soil test before discovering this forum.

Decision
After much debate I decided to go with Yukon Bermuda grass because of its cold tolerance and slower vertical growth.

I just received 3 item in the mail
1) Yukon seed from Hancock farms (very quick)
2) Earthway s25 liquid spreader
3) Soil logic liquid gypsum

My Plan
Use my earthway sprayer to broadcast weed killer over my existing lawn
Manually remove all this Darn Hay and Straw
Broadcast liquid gypsum ( I have soidic soil)
Level my Lawn with organic topsoil
Plant in a few weeks when temps get a little warmer. (Still have a few high 30 degree night time temp)

All Advice will be gladly accepted
Before photo


April 9


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## Tellycoleman

Update

This Friday I used my Earthway s25 to sprayer to KILL it.

How I applied

Home depot 2.5 gallon of 41% glyphosate
directions said use 2.5 ounces per Gallon which will treat about 300 square feet
Doing math thats 10 gallons of water and 25oz of glyphosate per 3000 square feet
Thats 12.5 Oz and 5 gallon water per 1500. I rounded down for overspray and that the sprayer will leave about 1/2 gallon in the sprayer so one tank full 5 gallons per 1000 square feet.
Its been 3 days and my grass isn't happy. I may have to reaply because some spots are still green. Most are yellowing.
Eathway S25 sprayer tip is the course tip.

Next step getting all the rocks and dead grass and Hay outta there
3 day post gly


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## Tellycoleman

10 days and everything is dead after 1 application 
I will wait and continue to water the dead grass to see what pops up.


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## J_nick

Welcome to TFL Telly! Your yard looks as bad as mine :lol: 12.5oz of 41% glypho is way more than the rate I used. I did have another product in my mix though but I would be interested in seeing the label of the product you used. To get most of the dead material off my lawn I used a power rake then cleaned up the debris with my rotary walk behind, you'll look like Pigpen dust cloud and all. Any idea of when you'll have the seed in the ground?


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## Tellycoleman

I scalped and raked the dead stuff.
It takes a long time with 25,000 feet .
Harley Raked everything and put down 2 truckloads of topsoil to help amend all this clay i have
It rained for 3 days after that.
I spent the last 4 days leveling and smoothing out the yard.
Good Lord I could kill my builder with all the pavement rocks he decided to spread around the side yard instead of picking up.

Do I have to pick up all the rocks OMG!!
I have done a very good job leveling everything however i didnt get sand .
I read in the other post about leveling.
Should I get a crap load of sand and level the yard meticulously before I plant seed? I can get leveling sand for $30 a ton/yard.
Or should I just wait and plant seed and attempt to correct next year?
If I put a bunch of sand down and then seed wont the broadcast spreader leave a lot of ruts?
Would I roll the yard after ?
I have a heard of 10-15 deer that run and frolic in my yard every night. Deer prints will drive me crazy every morning.
If Bringing in sand in my case will truly save me a lot of headache in the future I wil do it.
pictures in the Morning,

Your advice is appreciated


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## Tellycoleman

J_nick said:


> Welcome to TFL Telly! Your yard looks as bad as mine :lol: 12.5oz of 41% glypho is way more than the rate I used. I did have another product in my mix though but I would be interested in seeing the label of the product you used. To get most of the dead material off my lawn I used a power rake then cleaned up the debris with my rotary walk behind, you'll look like Pigpen dust cloud and all. Any idea of when you'll have the seed in the ground?


Sure thing
Maybe thats why nothing has grown back after initial application



Its been over a month


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## J_nick

Sand is good on a fully established lawn because it can work its way into the grass and still be able to move it for leveling. Working on bare dirt I think I would just work with what you've got. Sand in your situation might not be the best idea but I'm far from an expert. How was the Harley Rake? I plan to rent one in a couple weeks to help initially level my lawn. I have experience running a skid steer but never ran a Harley Rake.


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## Tellycoleman

J_nick said:


> Sand is good on a fully established lawn because it can work its way into the grass and still be able to move it for leveling. Working on bare dirt I think I would just work with what you've got. Sand in your situation might not be the best idea but I'm far from an expert. How was the Harley Rake? I plan to rent one in a couple weeks to help initially level my lawn. I have experience running a skid steer but never ran a Harley Rake.


The harley rake is easy if you have experience with the Skid.
Do go over the area many times.
The more you go over the area the more level you will be able to make everything. Use the harley rake attachment to push soil to low spots. I had a huge ditch on my side yard that is now a little ditch, 
Afterwards Make sure you try to rake and roll your yard as soon as you can afterwards. It rained for 3 days after I rakes and it took twice as long to get everything right.
Moving backward you can eliminate ruts and divots your skid makes.
I say all this but i didnt do any of it. My brother did.

I will probably plant Saturday. Soil temps are now averaging 65 with highs in the mid 80's
I bought some soil Moist I will mix with the seed. And I am debating rather or not I will use a pellet paper seed cover
like this
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007BVPUVA/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1PCUIINTCGL0C
Im not going to pay those prices for it
Or since I have irrigation not worry about seed cover at all.


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## Redtenchu

Nice work so far, I'm excited to see how this turns out.


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## coreymays22

Subscribed. Cant wait to see how it turns out. BTW where is Nashvy? Short for Nashville?


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## Tellycoleman

coreymays22 said:


> Subscribed. Cant wait to see how it turns out. BTW where is Nashvy? Short for Nashville?


Oh wow that was auto correct. 
I'm from Nashville. My hands are blistered my legs are wobbly
5 days of picking up rocks and leveling the lawn. With this heat I could only do 5000 square feet a day.





Some before and during pictures and a little sample of the side yard completed. Still need to drag a leveling mat.


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## tbdh20

Completely worth the effort! Great work, cant wait for the grow!


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## J_nick

Seed down?


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## Tellycoleman

No no no seed is not down😢😢
It rained about a inch last night and it was way to wet to try to do it. Around 5 pm it had dried up enough and I thought about it. But I set my alarm for 5:30 a.m. I'm going to hit it hard in the morning. 
Seed starter fertilizer and a crap ton load of paper pellet seed accelerator I got dirt cheap on clearance. 45 bags for 2.99 each. 
I'll let you see a picture anyway of my plan


Gonna put all this down hopefully in the AM


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## Tellycoleman

I am going to leave about 2000 square feet without the use of the pellet seed accelerator. Or anything other that raking it into the soil and starter fertilizer. No seed cover. Curious to see how they compare.


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## Tellycoleman

I am soooo tired
I finished it all
Started at 6;39 am didn't get done till 3:00 pm
What I did. 
1) Put down 2 bags of Lesco starter Fertilizer. John deer spreeder set at 3. Pretty good spread able to spread both directions. Each bag covered 12,000 square feet
2)Prep seed with soil moist. Warning warning
Please use a mask while doing this. The soil moist is very fine dust designed to expand many times its size when exposed to moisture. 
Don't do like me and be so fascinated that you are all in the bucket without a mask while stirring the powder in the seed. Soil moist + lungs = painful uncontrollable coughing. 1st stupid mistake of the day. 
3) Spent 30-45 min coughing up my left lung and listening to my wife ( a physician ) call me all kinds of stupid while she looked up the material safety data sheet to see if I needed treatment. 
I was ok and I stayed inside until for an hour.


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## Tellycoleman

4) The seed was a lot smaller that I thought. Very small. I used the spreader at 2 and it wasn't coming out fast enough. So I used 3.5 and it was perfect even with such a small seed. The seed left a light gray coating everywhere. Don't know if it will show up in the picture.


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## Tellycoleman

I am not a big fan of my spreader
5) After laying seed I lightly raked and then rolled the yard. I did the yard by 5000 yard sections at a time. 
6) Next i used the paper pellet grass seed excellerator. It was fun to use because it made everything in the yard dark newspaper gray. You can barely see the ground in some spots after watering.
I applied this with my speeder. Setting was the widest 11-12 . Instructions on the bag say that 5 bags cover 3000 ft. I actually used 2 bags per k and this seemed like a lot. These things really swell up and hold water. Comparison is wet vs dry pellet






Everything covered in gray


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## Tellycoleman

Clean up and watering everything was so satisfying. 
My feet hurt
If you don't believe that I worked hard today check out my Fitbit. 


However I can not tell you my success without telling you my biggest failure. 
Yes I was outside all day in the heat
Yes I had a tank top on. 
Yes I am African American
Yes I said "I'm black I don't need sunscreen"
Yes I have never had sunburn in my entire life
Yes we do tan in the sun
Yes my wife called my all kinds of stupid big dummy crazy a** for the rest of the day. Even as I'm writing this she stopped washing dishes came into the bed room and called me a big dummy
Yes I can't lay sit on my back
Yes I will show a picture.



I think I will leave it at that. To tired to do anything else today


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## Redtenchu

Haha, I'm glad you are okay and will recover from the injuries. I'm sure your wife was hard on you because she cares.

I'm excited to see some germination!


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## Iriasj2009

Wow great write up! All that work will pay off. Good luck!


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## GrassDaddy

hahaha how come the wives aren't as enthusiastic when we do something awesome like lay down nice stripes? But do something stupid and we hear about it =P


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## J_nick

Iriasj2009 said:


> Wow great write up! All that work will pay off. Good luck!


+1, looks good TC. I'm a little jealous you have seed down a month before I will. What kind of watering schedule are you going with?

For the rest of us guys out here, how in the world did you manage to get all that work done on Mothers Day?


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## ericgautier

Nice work! Can't wait to see the results. :thumbup:


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## Tellycoleman

I am second guessing myself i went a little heavy on the watering while trying to get things adjusted. Watered to much this morning and had standing puddles. I have dialed the rachio controller wayyyy back so we will see. I have a bucket of extra seed so i am debating weather to throw some more down in the flooded areas. 
What you guys think?
So far I am watering at 530
I didn't water again till 1030 because over watered the back yard
Its 1:30 and I am still pretty wet around the house next schedule water is 300pm
I cut down most zones to 5 min each. I will let you know when I get things adjusted right.
So don't rely on that.


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## J_nick

I wouldn't throw more seed down on the flooded areas it should be fine. Now if it was washing away it would be another issue but pooling from sprinklers should be alright. You might be able to move your 5:30 am watering to mid morning, there won't be much evaporation at night.

I plan to take off the first couple days of my seeding to fine tune the sprinklers. Light and frequent just keeping everything damp.


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## Redtenchu

I agree with j_nick. Hold the Seed for now.


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## Tellycoleman

J_nick said:


> I plan to take off the first couple days of my seeding to fine tune the sprinklers. Light and frequent just keeping everything damp.


Taking off work the day after seeding is a must. I think you have to. If you don't then you will waist alot of seed and water. I didn't think about it but I was glad I was off today just to observe. I guess you can play around with it before you plant and level. And spend a lazy Sunday making adjustments before planting.


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## Tellycoleman

Havent done much the last 3 days just water adjust and repeat.
Today was a little overcast so I haven't watered yet i will play it by ear.
Walked the yard and picked up weeds
Oh i did get 2.5 gallons of MSMA product label says I can use it 1 week after germination I will probably wait 2 weeks.
I was gonna get Drive but yukon does not do well with it





To be continued


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## J_nick

Tellycoleman said:


> ...MSMA product label says I can use it 1 week after germination I will probably wait 2 weeks.
> I was gonna get Drive but yukon does not do well with it


From that information I'm guessing you've already read this if not it would be worth your time.

It says it's safe to spray 1 week after emergence not germination. Emergence is defined as a uniform stand of one-leaf seedlings about 0.5 inches tall.


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## Ware

I haven't done any bermuda seeding research, but weed control would probably be way down on my list of priorities. It's something you can easily whip into shape with the bermuda triangle once the grass is growing/healthy.


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## Alan

I would take it easy on the MSMA use until a pretty good stand of grass is established. And then when you decide to use it, I would mix it at a weak rate, like ≤1 oz./gallon per 1k sq. ft.. If after a couple weeks you don't get the weed killing results you want, then bump up the rate. I think a standard/normal rate is ~1.5oz/gallon per 1k sq. ft., but don't take my word for it, do some research. Or maybe someone with a little more MSMA experience can chime in and give their advice on its use.


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## J_nick

Alan said:


> I would take it easy on the MSMA use until a pretty good stand of grass is established. And then when you decide to use it, I would mix it at a weak rate, like ≤1 oz./gallon per 1k sq. ft.. If after a couple weeks you don't get the weed killing results you want, then bump up the rate. I think a standard/normal rate is ~1.5oz/gallon per 1k sq. ft., but don't take my word for it, do some research. Or maybe someone with a little more MSMA experience can chime in and give their advice on its use.


The article I linked put the rate at .46-.91oz/1000



Ware said:


> I haven't done any bermuda seeding research, but weed control would probably be way down on my list of priorities. It's something you can easily whip into shape with the bermuda triangle once the grass is growing/healthy.


Something to definitely play by ear. I wouldn't do it just because but if weed pressure is bad enough they could serverly compete with the seedlings. Bad thing is MSMA is for grassy weeds which I wouldn't be too concerned about unless it was server. I'm more worried about broadleafs shading out the seedlings.


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## Alan

J_nick said:


> The article I linked put the rate at .46-.91oz/1000


Cool. I obviously didn't read it. The 1.5/oz per 1k rate I mentioned must be for well established turf. I think you can go as high as 2.0/oz. but that's pretty hot stuff and I would imagine yellow the Bermuda quite a bit. Again, that's for well established turf. I read somewhere(online of course) that someone DIDN'T mix any water with his MSMA and killed all his Bermuda, go figure.


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## Tellycoleman

Thanks guys i never red the bermuda triangle.
Well I have the chemicals now so I will use them . But I will follow the triangle as well. A lot of tall fescue is trying to grow now but im sure the bermuda will out compete the fescue.

On a side note one thing i would have done in hind site. I would have sprayed the yard with talstar before I harley raked.
I had one anthill in my front yard that i didnt even think about,
Now after the harley rake broke up the colony I have about 200 mini ant hills. Im just not to enthusiastic about putting down an insectacide until I have germination. At least I am getting my lawn aerated :?  All the weeds are growing out of the fire ant hills which makes it rather difficult to hand pull them out.


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## coreymays22

Be careful of the temperature when you are spraying it as well. That stuff will stress even healthy, established Bermuda if sprayed on a hot day. I think the label says >85* is the threshold.

That being said, I am in the 2.5 gallon club as well, but once you kill the dallas and crab grass, it becomes a little overkill in my mind. I have so much left over, I thought about going around my neighborhood and killing my neighbors dallasgrass. 
(pretty sure it would be illegal though)


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## Bunnysarefat

I would advise against spraying any herbicide as long as you can stand it, plus some. You're just going to have to live with the weeds that are emerging this first year once you've already reached the point of germination. If you must spray, I would suggest being very conservative on the strength and/or test spraying first and waiting a few weeks. Bermuda will win in the long haul if you let it establish. I know from experience it's easier said than done.


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## Tellycoleman

Bunnysarefat said:


> I would advise against spraying any herbicide as long as you can stand it, plus some. You're just going to have to live with the weeds that are emerging this first year once you've already reached the point of germination. If you must spray, I would suggest being very conservative on the strength and/or test spraying first and waiting a few weeks. Bermuda will win in the long haul if you let it establish. I know from experience it's easier said than done.


 Ok I will be patient or i will try to be patient.
My 5 year old daughter loves pulling weeds and she is closer to the ground than I am. we pulled up 5 gallon bucket full of weeds (Dalisgrass  ). I guess I will continue.

SO update
I wish I would have done something that I would recomend everyone who isnt a botonist do when renovating from seed.
Who here knows what baby Yukon grass sprouts look like? I never seen it I dont know. I wish i would have gotten some potting soil put in an egg carton and sprinkled yukon on top and sat it on my window even before planting in real life. That way I know whats weeds and whats yukon bermuda? Would have saved me alot of stress . I think i actually had some germination in patches after day 3-4 but my daughter and i pulled every bit of it up thinking it couldnt be germination that quick. I am going to be fighting dalisgrass big time
It rained for the 1st time in a week last night and i guess nothing beats mother nature cause i went to bed with a mostly bare lawn and woke up to a WTF moment. Dalisgrass has taken off
It rained 0.8 inches last night. Yeah I have green in my lawn but not the green I am wanting hopefully I will get better results soon.
I know bermuda is an alpha male grass and my fingers are still crossed

I watered for weeks after my first kill and nothing grew in my dirt. Now I have nothing but weeds. Maybe i should have applied a fertilizer to encourage growth then killed again.

dont let the green fool you


dont let the green fool you


close up
the grey pellets are newspaper pellets

One good thing to note
A landscaper saw me messing around yesterday in my yard and stopped to talk
He said look its going to rain and you have nothing but dirt. You need to get your water hoses out and just carefully lay them out in the yard zig zag them like a snake in areas that you think you will get run off. the water hose will prevent alot of surface runoff. IT Worked I had 3 water hoses that all acted like mini dams and stopped any major runoff in the hard heavy thunderstorm we had that dropped almost an inch of rain in an hour.


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## Spammage

Telly, I'm relatively sure that is crabgrass in your bottom pic. MSMA will kill it too, but isn't really needed as other safer products will kill it quicker. MSMA is really only needed for dallisgrass, which you may have some of, but isn't in your pics. You also can't really pull dallisgrass. The underground structure of that plant is pretty crazy.


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## Bunnysarefat

That looks like crabgrass to me too. there was no dallisgrass in your lawn before you renovated and if there is no Daligrass in your neighbors lawns now then it's probably not dallisgrass. Can't say I remember exactly what Dallisgrass looks like right after germination but once the plants mature it becomes more obvious. Dallisgrass forms a circular patch that can't be pulled, it must be dug out.


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## Redtenchu

That's a cool tip he gave you, I always enjoy a courtesy tip from a pro (when they work).

Im also unsure of what the Yukon looks like at germination. You can still sprinkle a little in a carton, better late than never.

When seeding Bermuda, it's like being in a championship 15 round fight. Stay in there and keep jabbing away until you win!


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## Tellycoleman

Bunnysarefat said:


> That looks like crabgrass to me too. there was no dallisgrass in your lawn before you renovated and if there is no Daligrass in your neighbors lawns now then it's probably not dallisgrass. Can't say I remember exactly what Dallisgrass looks like right after germination but once the plants mature it becomes more obvious. Dallisgrass forms a circular patch that can't be pulled, it must be dug out.


I wish u were right. 
I had a bad glyphosate resistant dalisgrass last year. The picture I took had crabgrass but umm here u go
More pictures. Good news is with all the rain I was able to hand pull a lot of the Dalis even a substantial portion of the root system




I'm going to kill them all by hand. Been outside all day


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## Spammage

I'm still seeing crabgrass Telly, and for your sake I hope I'm right. No contest on which of the two I would choose. One way to know for sure is to let one plant go to seed. Their inflorescences are quite different.


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## J_nick

What's it looking like Telly?


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## Tellycoleman

So the last 2 days has been unseasonably cooler. High 60's. Because of this I believe my growth has slowed down. The day after my last post ( day 8) I started seeing germination. Actually on the picture above in what I thought was all weeds and dalisgrass/crabgrass there was small number of seed germinated. The picture I'm including is of the same general area. So I know what Yukon seedlings look like now.
What I have done since Sunday
Monday= I was off work my son was out from school exempt from finals. His 2 older cousins were spending the week and even my wife was available. We hit the front yard with a mission to hand pull as many weeds as we possibly could. We pulled weeds for 3 hours and all 5 of us got it done. No weeds anywhere.
Tuesday= Day 9 after seeding. I am seeing alot of growth but in patches. When they say keep the grown moist I think I will go as far as say it has to be more than moist. Keep the ground wet. Areas that were in my opinion over watered are the areas that have the most growth where as areas that remained moist but not dried out had little or no germination. How wet? Leaving a footprint saturated had the best germination.
Wednesday = day 10 2 words for Tuesday afternoon and Wednesday "Cold and rainy" temp dropped 10 degrees (crappit) However since germination has started nothing was really washing away Yeahhh.
Bad news it seemed like all the hard work the 5 of us did on Monday picking out twelve 5 gallon buckets of weeds was for nothing. Wednesday it looked like we hadn't done 💩💩💩. Weeds were back but the Yukon grass was getting longer.
Thursday Day 11 Today I went to a local garden center and bought a manual push mower that could get down to 0.5 inches. I figured I will just keep all the weeds very low so as not to compete for sunlight. Temperature is on the rise.
Color the pictures don't show it but the color of the Yukon is alot different from. My neighbor common Bermuda or the weeds around it. Will definitely have my yard standing out from The others.
The best growth I have is in an area of the yard that the Harley rake couldn't get to. 5 foot by 5 foot area. So I just threw seed down on top of the dead grass I did nothing to and raked it in a little. It's growing like crazy

Issues. One side of my house (ironically the side that gets the most sun) has very very little germination. Very little weed germination as well. Curious I think I might need to do a soil survey just in that area to see what's going on if I don't get any growth of any kind.

monday 8 days after seeding

Tuesday 9 days after seeding

Thursday 11 days after seeding


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## J_nick

Germination looks good in the pictures :thumbup: keep the updates coming you were worrying me with not hearing anything during the 7-10 germination window.


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## Tellycoleman

So I'm going to try something. In my most infested area of crabgrass I'm going to try a small strip of msma. Can't hurt it's 90% crab 10% Yukon and it's the most aggressive patch of crabgrass. So I figure why not. Nothing to loose. Since temps are cooler this week below 80 I might as well catch it when it's young. It's and area 10ft by 10ft. Might do 75% strength in a blanket application. 0.5 ounce per gallon. 
Interested in seeing what will happen. Will try it tomorrow or Sunday.


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## jbrown

So my back yard had some narly patches of dallisgrass, so instead of glysophate aka roundup, I dug it up, flat shovel. With dallis the surface roots are terrible and just killing the grass the roots are still there. My bermuda take right over after digging that stuff up.

JB


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## Bunnysarefat

Isn't it amazing that sometimes the area of the lawn you pay attention to the least and almost neglect can look the best? I have that situation with my St. Augistine in an isolated patch, barely mow it let alone fertilize and it looks amazing.

I'm telling you, be careful spraying seedlings that small. They won't survive much in terms of chemicals. Test an area if you must. I've blasted Yukon that was either 2 or 3 weeks past germination and it died hard in almost every spot and even the crabgrass didn't die completely because nothing was competing with it at that point. If you do seed and you're doing a big area you're best off just execpting the reality that you'll have weeds this year. Trust me, I know how hard it is to wait, you can spray in due time, but the weeds are going to have a big head start no matter what by the time your Bermuda can take an effective dose of chemicals. Just my opinion,I know all chemicals and conditions are different. Best of luck! Enjoying your updates.


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## Spammage

I agree with Bunnysarefat here Telly. Unless you are willing to accept total loss of the Yukon in this area, I would wait. There are enough crabgrass seeds in the soil that you will likely have the same issue again later if you have to reseed. If you are going to try it, then I would stick to 1oz/gal/1000sf rate or less..


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## Tellycoleman

Bunnysarefat said:


> Isn't it amazing that sometimes the area of the lawn you pay attention to the least and almost neglect can look the best? I have that situation with my St. Augistine in an isolated patch, barely mow it let alone fertilize and it looks amazing.
> 
> I'm telling you, be careful spraying seedlings that small. They won't survive much in terms of chemicals. Test an area if you must. I've blasted Yukon that was either 2 or 3 weeks past germination and it died hard in almost every spot and even the crabgrass didn't die completely because nothing was competing with it at that point. If you do seed and you're doing a big area you're best off just execpting the reality that you'll have weeds this year. Trust me, I know how hard it is to wait, you can spray in due time, but the weeds are going to have a big head start no matter what by the time your Bermuda can take an effective dose of chemicals. Just my opinion,I know all chemicals and conditions are different. Best of luck! Enjoying your updates.


Thanks for the advise guys
I will breath take a step back and not search for immediate gratification.
I will wait and see what happens.
Maybe dig up the heavy infested spots before my next fertilizer application and then wait for the bermuda to fill in.

Today i would say 70% of my yard has germination. All spaces in between the weeds are filled with Yukon. The only areas that dont are areas where I had alot of runoff, areas that didnt get enouph water the first 5 days( until i adjusted my sprinklers), And my mystery side yard patch where nothing not even weeds are growing. The area that had sprinkler issues will probably come in late. Mystery area's soil sample was sent off yesterday.
I have more than just single blades of grass they have quickly split into 2 or 3 blades.
I can give you guys a front yard shot but it is not pretty.

A hint for those planting Yukon. A day or 2 before germination the ground in that area turned a greenish tint. Maybe it was germination that was to small to see. I thought it was moss or slime but the next day I would have visual growth.

Question 
Do I fertilize again 21 days after my first application or wait 30 days ?
Do I use starter fertilizer again?


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## Ware

I think holding off on the herbicide is a good plan. Once the bermuda really takes off, it will take no time to fill in the areas with dead weeds.


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## Tellycoleman

Ware said:


> I think holding off on the herbicide is a good plan. Once the bermuda really takes off, it will take no time to fill in the areas with dead weeds.


So it is 17days after seeding
I have some areas that are looking good.
This is my best area and side yard.

More Bermuda then weeds Yeahhhhhh.

However this is where my Happiness is gone.
My front yard, that I worked the hardest on, is 70% crabgrass.
I am honestly thinking really hard about going Glyphosate and starting over.
NO Bermuda visible in the part I spent the most time on.
I know I am NOT patient and you guys tell me to wait and see what happens. But honestly I cant really see the point in letting the weeds just grow. With this amount of crabgrass coverage, when I do kill it I will only have a large bare patch of earth and no Bermuda seedlings.
Talk to me guys what do you think? Am I wrong?

Pictues of the worst area my front yard. The 1st picture is just part of my front yard 10,000 sq ft The area i put blue dots on is about 15 feet wide and extends, past the picture across my entire front lawns about 160 feet. I did have very Good germination in this area but it seems like the crabgrass won the battle.



The other 2 pictures are close ups.
Now I am a newbie but i do know that there isnt going to be much if any bermuda germinating in this area since the crabgrass has taken over.




I just would like everyones opinionwhat would you personally do?
1)Wait until bermuda is older (maybe another month) treat for crabgrass 
2) Treat area now and re seed
3) Other (please explain)

Your honest opinion is needed.
Im just fustrated but I am not going to give up.
I see that there is a pre-emergent that can be applied on the day off seeding for crabgrass. I think if i have to start over i would use that.
Or maybe I can have a crabgrass Lawn How low can I mow that ?
oh well    
Thanks


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## J_nick

I wouldn't use glyphosate right now. If there is any Bermuda you aren't giving it a shot of surviving. I would use you MSMA it makes short work of crabgrass and at least your giving the Bermuda a chance. Reseed if nothing makes it


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## Bunnysarefat

Some of those areas looks pretty bad.

Take a look at this article, it might have some information you could use. I would say it would be worth spraying a few areas in 3 or 4 days. Just be sure to get a scale to measure your product exactly and use marking blue so you know where you have sprayed exactly.

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2006nov44.pdf


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## Bunnysarefat

I would say if you could wait 10 more days that would be best, if the area is so-so. But if some areas are bad as the one in the photo you've gotta do what you've gotta do.


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## Tellycoleman

Bunnysarefat said:


> Some of those areas looks pretty bad.
> 
> Take a look at this article, it might have some information you could use. I would say it would be worth spraying a few areas in 3 or 4 days. Just be sure to get a scale to measure your product exactly and use marking blue so you know where you have sprayed exactly.
> 
> http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/golfd/article/2006nov44.pdf


Awsome article thanks


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## j4c11

Quinclorac should do the job for crabgrass, no? I thought Bermuda is fairly tolerant of it.


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## Bunnysarefat

Just be careful. That study was done under perfect conditions where the seedlings had no competition. You really need to double and triple measure everything before you attempt this. As long as you do all your calculations and measurements up front, then if it doesn't work and it kills your grass then you can't blame yourself.


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## J_nick

j4c11 said:


> Quinclorac should do the job for crabgrass, no? I thought Bermuda is fairly tolerant of it.


Bermuda is quite tolerant but Yukon is more susceptible to injury than other varieties


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## MrMeaner

I would wait tellyC - Let the rest of the Yukon Bermuda continue to grow and take hold. You can always go back and kill specific weeds then reseed and baby the problem areas that need more attention.

Whatever you do - DO NOT down any type of pre-emergent - you will basically sterilize that area causing not only weed seeds to germinate but Bermuda seeds to not germinate.


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## Redtenchu

I select option 1). Wait a month, then treat weeds.

Bermuda seeding is notoriously weedy, and won't look good for a while, but will eventually.


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## J_nick

Update?


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## Concretestorm

Damn Telly, you are a patient man. It looks like you are doing a great job.


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## Tellycoleman

Ok what I have done in the last 9 days
1)On May 31 which was 17 days after seeding I put down MSMA only on the area that was heavily heavily infested with crabgrass to the point that you couldnt see the ground or Bermuda. I have to say I think it was successful at making the crabgrass die and making the Yukon bermuda mildly sick. I will start a new thread giving details and lots of pictures.
Basically everything is growning taller. 90% of my yard is covered but I would say its 50/50 weeds and grass. I am not going to apply another form of weed control for another 2 weeks depending on the way the grass looks.
According to articles I have read I was supposed to have beginning signs of stolon development but I haven't seen any.
I put down another 0.5 pounds of nitrogen today on the lawn.
Not to sure if i need to put down 1/2 pound every 2 weeks or 1 pound every month. Lawn is no way in the condition i want it to be in. I am Kinda embarrassed to take pictures.
I have been using my manuel reel mower set at 0.5 inch every other day. Right now it is not cutting bermuda at all. Its cutting the weeds. But keeping the weeds cut low alows sunshine to hit the bermuda and when I see the bermuda take off I will Kill them All. 
I have accepted the fact that this year will be a battle of weeds for me.


5 days after MSMA



5 Days after MSMA Bermuda growing under the dying crabgrass


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## J_nick

Seeding Bermuda isn't for the faint of heart that's for sure. This year might be the year of weeds but once the Bermuda is established you're golden. Plus the next hit of MSMA will clear up that crabgrass.

I also plan to go 1/2# every 2 weeks on my fert. My seed will go down this weekend.

Don't get discouraged. You have Bermuda growing with a lot of growing season left.


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## Spammage

:thumbup: I think you are in better shape than I think you think you are. Establishing a warm season grass from seed is notoriously difficult and weed pressure is a given. As the temps rise you should see it start to take off.


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## Bunnysarefat

Looking good. Once it takes off you will see exponential improvement. Next year at this time it will be very respectable.


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## Tellycoleman

Spammage said:


> :thumbup: I think you are in better shape than I think you think you are. Establishing a warm season grass from seed is notoriously difficult and weed pressure is a given. As the temps rise you should see it start to take off.


I hope you are right. This week it is truely HOT HOT.
Until now I have been playing it by ear on how much I water. It is way to hot to play it by ear.
My watering schedule
Now I water constantly. I have 8 Zones I split my 8 zones in half and run them for 6 min each some for 7 min.
4zone and 6min each = 24-27min 
I wait for 30 min then start the last 4 zones and repeat all day
I cant wait till my 1st water bill.

What I would have done different
I knew I had to water after the 1st kill to try to encourage weed growth. I did but only 2 times a day. the ground would really dry out in between.
I should have watered like I was going to do during seeding. Then I probably would have had enough growth for a second kill.

Thanks for the encouragement guys


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## Tellycoleman

32 day update

Grass is growing. weeds are growing. I have been maintaining a HOC at 1/2 well thats HOC on the reel. The Crabgrass really doesnt like it that low and is yellowing but the goosegrass likes it. Needless to say that the low HOC is giving the bermuda hidden in there the opportunity to grow Its been hell keeping it that short expecially after i applied a pound of cheap fast release nitrogen. I have excessive weed growth vertical and outstanding bermuda growth horizontally. 
I posted in another thread about the excessive growth but pictures show the story.
I mowed almost everyday this week. I mowed yesterday and this morning i took this picture.



bottom of finger is were it was yesterday.

No more fast release for me, or no more 1 pound of fast release at one time. Yukon has slow verticle growth so for me I actually dont cut the bermuda very much as I do the weeds everyday.

Future

Next week will be 3 weeks post emergence. I plan to hit the yard hard with weed killer.
What I have available is nothing in the bermuda triangle but I can place an order.
I have MSMA The vast majority of my weeds is crabgrass.
I have Quicksilver ( my brother bought some this year and gave me the entire bottle)
I was going to use MSMA full strength and 0.9ml of quicksilver for rainfast.

Would you recommend I broadcast spray with my Earthway s25?
Would you recommend anything else to use besides what I have?

Or would you sudgest I wait longer.
I will wait longer if you guys think I should.


Its getting there growing thick in alot of places. Some places I can use a broom to sweep up the weed clippings after I cut.
Weird because I dont really see any stallon growth but it is spreading horizontally. I have seen no runners even in the thickest of areas. I dont know if its a Yukon trait or not.


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## Mightyquinn

What are the temperature restrictions on MSMA or Quicksilver? I would take those into account especially on very young bermuda. You could always try and hand pull as many as you can every day and see how far that gets you and there would be less stress on the grass.

The Yukon is probably spreading by Rhizomes(below ground) which is why you don't see any runners on top(Stolons).

You might want to do a test area first before going all in on the whole lawn to see what kind of damage the weed killer will do also.

It's looking amazing already so keep on what you are doing because it's working!


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## Bunnysarefat

Looking really good. That Bermuda will find its way around those weeds and send runners every which way. If you have some tracker dye and can spray very precise, you'll probably be Ok to spray. I would just advise you don't try and get greedy and go for it all at once. If an area has some weeds but some decent Bermuda, just let it be. If you're on this forum you obviously have a certain standard you're trying to attain, and you won't get there until the end of this season at the very earliest. lI have to say, at this pace it's going to look amazing next season. Yukon really gets thick the second year in my limited experience with it. Really good progress and you're doing a great job Telly's. Just use tracker dye and, only hit the areas that you feel really really need it and don't even tempt yourself with the areas that are decent just to be safe. Just my advice. I don't have experience with MSMA but I do know it's the real deal.


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## Spammage

MSMA will sting established bermuda at temps over 90 at 2 oz/k. I would expect seedlings to be a little more sensitive. I would probably test a bad area at 1 oz/k to see what results you get. I don't have any experience with Quicksilver so I can't help you there.


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## rhanna

I'm not an expert, just look at how my renovation project is going, but I think I remember reading a study saying that Yukon was more susceptible to herbicide injury. I think it recovered after a couple of weeks


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## Tellycoleman

Ok update
45 days post seeding

What I have done
I broadcast sprayed 45cc of MSMA, MSO surfactant, and 9 drops of Quicksilver (per 1000 ft) 10 days ago over 8,000 square feet. Yes I went crazy it was a 3rd of my yard.
It was a great success! 
All The weeds are dying or dead and the only green in bermuda. Yep my lawn looks horrible right now. But I was surprised at how much bermuda was hiding underneath and how much Bermuda is beginning to sprout in areas that didnt have any. 
I know you guys want a picture and I will reluctantly show you my lawn when i get home from work.
I put down 0.5 Nitrogen down yesterday

Question
I have an area about the size of 2 welcome mats that is common Bermuda very thick patch. I can tell because Yukon has very thin blades. This is obviously different and color is different.
it is surrounded by a bunch of dead crabgrass. 
Should I leave it and plug Yukon into it from other areas next year?
I know its going to spread So should I glyphosate it ?
what would you guys do ?
Yes I will take pictures


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## Bunnysarefat

That's good news. Tough call on the common. Remind me, did you use glyphosate at the beginning of this renovation? I had certain "strains" of common Bermuda in my yard that survived 4+ rounds of full strength nuclear applications of glyphosate. Some of it it just kept coming back, especially this lighter blue green strain. So it's not obvious that using roundup on that spot will completely eliminate it in one blast.


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## Tellycoleman

2 month update day 64 after seeding

I had alot of crabgrass pressure. I thought I had about 60% bermuda coverage but it was more like 10%. Basically I had a failed renovation.
how do I know this?
My first blanket app of MSMA.
I have been doing 4,000 square feet of MSMA every 7 days to keep the timing less confusing. Yet my yard looks like a patchwork of different stages of treatment. After 2 applications 14 days apart I reseeded and I have been pushing nitrogen heavy. I have had some browning of the bermuda but it always returned like clock work around day 7.
It is getting there is all I got to say.
picture below is my front lawn today from my security camera. the area by the road turning yellow is all crab grass i treated on Sunday. The area in the middle was my first blanket application and it is by far the best area.
Still say Im at about 30% coverage but everywhere I look I see Bermuda grass among the dead or dying Crabgrass. 
My wife has started to call me Mr Crab which I do not find funny. Well maybe a little bit.
In hind sight I think I should have waited another 2-3 weeks before I planted. I was anticipating a hot summer in Nashville. However this has been one of the mildest summers we have had in years. This week is our first week in the 90's. The only areas that I had great growth was at all the edges. The areas around the sidewalk and the road. I think this is because it was warmer around those areas. It sucks but I can see a little light at the end of the tunnel.

Every renovation isn't great. Mine certainly isn't. But I haven't given up. If I can make others feel that they are not alone by showing that its not all great despite your hard work and preparation.
I will succeed with my lawn. Mr Crab will transform into Mr Yukon.
My neighbors will no longer think im crazy.


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## Tellycoleman

Everything green in the picture above is Yukon. Brown or yellow = crabgrass

The good part about such a mild summer is that I could use MSMA unrestricted.

I couldn't find a yearly maximum for MSMA


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## Ware

Look on the bright side - the bermuda you have will do nothing but spread. If you continue to do the right things, you'll probably be begging it to stop by this time next year. :thumbup:


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## Tellycoleman

yep I have gotten great results from using Peet moss. Maybe it had something in it that my soil was missing. 2 weeks ago i used a peet moss roller and added some to my lawn. the Bermuda responded dramatically. It spread fast and strong.
Yard is still ugly and still has alot of work to do but I am hoping for great coverage by the end of the year.
I wonder if its the Humic acid thing that was discussed in another thread?

On a side note the leaves on Yukon stolons look significantly different from Extablished yukon grass. Its wierd because earlier I had complained about getting common bermuda grass invasion because the stalons looked so different. Well im glad i didnt kill it. I will take pictures in a little bit to show you guys.


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## Tellycoleman




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## Tellycoleman

finally looking better.


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## Redtenchu

Looking much better!

You've had some struggles, but didn't quit. You'll be very happy with that Yukon next season.


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## Iriasj2009

I see a lot of Bermuda!!! This time next year you'll be enjoying a lush full lawn. Looks great


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## Ware

I agree with these guys. :thumbup:


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## Movingshrub

Is this one of those moments where Ronstar-G (Oxadiazon) is called for?

It's one of the few pre-ems that's friendly for damaged turf that's trying to put down roots.

If you're not putting down more seed but just trying to fight back the weed presence. I would think ronstar would do well to help prevent any new crab or goose grass from popping up. Use MSMA to fight back what's alive currently, and then fertilize regularly.

Others feel free to chime in on my suggestion. From what I can gather, weed management + encouraging bermuda spreading seems to be the issue.


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## Tellycoleman

Day 86 is the new 30
86 days after seeding and I would say I was where I wanted to be on day 30-45.
Its amazing what a difference 10 days can make to your lawn.
When you guys say that I would know when my lawn takes off. Well it was when I was on vacation for 6 days in Florida.
There is nothing but stolons everywhere in my yard almost every signal inch of it.
Stolons on top of stolons on top of stolons.

I do have some spots with a lot of goose grass. I was keeping it under control hand pulling it but it won the battle when I went on vacation. I don't have complete coverage so here are my questions.

1)Should I wait until complete coverage before putting down a pre emergent? Will the pre emergent slow down stolon growth?
2) My lawn just started looking OK I like the green . Should I 
A)Broadcast MSMA again to finish off the Weeds and deal with a yellow lawn for another 10+ days? ( this week temps below 86)
B) Spot spray with Certainty and Celcius and hit the weeds that I can every week or so.
C) Do nothing and push growth and let pre-emergents next year take care of the weeds?
3) I have some PGR would you encourage that or wait.


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## J_nick

I've had good luck with the lower rates of MSMA .9oz/1000 it turned the grass a little yellow but nothing major, it was still green just lighter green. The grass slowed down but within 5 days was back to growing like normal. I made 2 sprays 14 days apart. It all just depends on how bad the problem is. The first picture shows how much goose I had in my front yard, it was taking 4-5 days after my first spray. Second picture is from a few days ago.

 

Today is day 60 for my reno so I'm good to spray Prodiamine but I dont have any so it'll probably wait for a few more weeks. I do plan to spray PGR this weekend if I can get a break from the rain.


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## Tellycoleman

Thats sounds good I think I will do a lower dose of MSMA also.
You had good suppresion
Are you going to aerate this year?
Thanks


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## J_nick

No, I haven't planned to do any aeration. I might next year before I do some leveling but that's a long ways away, I'm sure my plan will change 20 times be then


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## Tellycoleman

what is this?
Is it a fungus? Its not bad in my yard but i see a few spots here and there. Im not talking about the crabgrass. Im talking about the cloudy looking spots.
thanks


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## FATC1TY

Movingshrub said:


> Is this one of those moments where Ronstar-G (Oxadiazon) is called for?
> 
> It's one of the few pre-ems that's friendly for damaged turf that's trying to put down roots.
> 
> If you're not putting down more seed but just trying to fight back the weed presence. I would think ronstar would do well to help prevent any new crab or goose grass from popping up. Use MSMA to fight back what's alive currently, and then fertilize regularly.
> 
> Others feel free to chime in on my suggestion. From what I can gather, weed management + encouraging bermuda spreading seems to be the issue.


This is what Im doing exactly. Ronstar g down in fall and spring due to what I'm assuming is thin grass from my soil issues, and compaction along with tons of goosegrass


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## FATC1TY

Tellycoleman said:


> what is this?
> Is it a fungus? Its not bad in my yard but i see a few spots here and there. Im not talking about the crabgrass. Im talking about the cloudy looking spots.
> thanks


The webbing with the dew is a sign of a fungus. Has it been really wet and humid? Watering in the evenings, dew in the mornings and not drying the grass out any?

I would be hesitant myself to reach for any fungicide immediately... I'm not sure how it would be for recently seeded stuff.


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## Movingshrub

FATC1TY said:


> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this one of those moments where Ronstar-G (Oxadiazon) is called for?
> 
> It's one of the few pre-ems that's friendly for damaged turf that's trying to put down roots.
> 
> If you're not putting down more seed but just trying to fight back the weed presence. I would think ronstar would do well to help prevent any new crab or goose grass from popping up. Use MSMA to fight back what's alive currently, and then fertilize regularly.
> 
> Others feel free to chime in on my suggestion. From what I can gather, weed management + encouraging bermuda spreading seems to be the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Im doing exactly. Ronstar g down in fall and spring due to what I'm assuming is thin grass from my soil issues, and compaction along with tons of goosegrass
Click to expand...

Have you already applied the oxadiazon? What are you trying to control with it for the fall? Poa annua? For the spring, I think it's potentially the right choice. For the fall, TBD depending on what you are trying to control.


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## FATC1TY

Movingshrub said:


> FATC1TY said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Movingshrub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is this one of those moments where Ronstar-G (Oxadiazon) is called for?
> 
> It's one of the few pre-ems that's friendly for damaged turf that's trying to put down roots.
> 
> If you're not putting down more seed but just trying to fight back the weed presence. I would think ronstar would do well to help prevent any new crab or goose grass from popping up. Use MSMA to fight back what's alive currently, and then fertilize regularly.
> 
> Others feel free to chime in on my suggestion. From what I can gather, weed management + encouraging bermuda spreading seems to be the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> This is what Im doing exactly. Ronstar g down in fall and spring due to what I'm assuming is thin grass from my soil issues, and compaction along with tons of goosegrass
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Have you already applied the oxadiazon? What are you trying to control with it for the fall? Poa annua? For the spring, I think it's potentially the right choice. For the fall, TBD depending on what you are trying to control.
Click to expand...

Poa occasionally. I don't have much for weeds during fall/winter. Maybe some clover near the beds. Will discuss in pre m thread so we don't junk up this. Sorry tellycoleman!


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## Tellycoleman

Day 125 yeahhhhhh
Ok I think I had a very difficult renovation but I am proof that you should never give up. 
Lawn looks the best. Really darker green color after I found and finally applied some ammonium nitrate and used a iron zinc supplement called chloroburst. Neighbors compliment me daily.
Will show you pictures at my worst and best

Full crabgrass and goose grass pressure.


Full crabgrass and goose grass pressure.


Mid treatment with MSMA and Quicksilver

Now




Not perfect. Still gotta fill in and thicken up. Can't wait till next year. Next years obstacle how to level this monster of a yard.

I mow at 0.75 it scalps the lawn just a little after every mow and the day after I mow always looks better than the day of. Do you think I need to raise up the HOC? Would you do it anyway to help it get through winter?


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## J_nick

Good job Telly it looks great! What are you mowing with?


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## Ware

Looks fantastic! :thumbsup:

At 3/4", I wouldn't worry too much about raising the HOC going into winter unless you're just doing it for the aesthetics you mention. Another option would be take it down a little then resume mowing at 3/4".

Again, looks great! Your hard work certainly paid off!


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## Tellycoleman

J_nick said:


> Good job Telly it looks great! What are you mowing with?


You don't want to know. I have maintained my yard this year with this mower

American Lawn Mower 1815-18 18-Inch 5-Blade Reel Lawn Mower
Only Manuel mower I found to cut at 1/2 inch

I was going to get a greens mower but I am saving my money for a triplex next year.

One thing I found crazy was that Yukon stolon growth leaves look 100% different from the mature grass
The stolon leaves are a lot lighter green in color and a whole lot thicker leaf blade than the fine leaf of mature Yukon. This lead me to believe that I had a lot of common invasion when the stolons started to take off and spread. I'm glad I didn't try and kill what I thought was common.


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## Tellycoleman

Oh and I know MSMA label suggest only 2 applications a year. Wellllllllll Ok all i can say is lol lol lol. I far exceeded those recommendations. Lets go with 5.


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## Redtenchu

Well done sir, looks nice!


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## J_nick

Dang that's commitment doing it with a manual reel. With your sqft a triplex would be awesome.


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## cousineau18

Tellycoleman said:


>


Any update after 2 years of seeding? I am at day 75 and having similar issues with crabgrass, but was told to ignore crabgrass and keep mowing to thicken it up. I believe the brown areas are the huge slope and just not getting enough water but its coming along. Just applied .85# of Carbon X. So hoping for some greening up over the next 3 to 4 weeks.


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## Tellycoleman

Your looking great keep up the good work. I wouldn't damage your lawn by doing any broadcast spraying. You need to fertilize very heavy. I put up to 1/2 pound a week. You will be mowing a lot but try to push hard. The first winter expect some winter kill but after that your good. Do NOT overseed. With rye. This first year. And spend the winter gathering different types of herbicides and preemergents for next year. 
If you have any fungul issues DO NOT use azoxystrobin. Yukon doesn't like it very well. It won't kill it but it will dingit pretty hard.


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## Tellycoleman

2 year post seeding. It usually looks a lot better but I was experimenting with very low cut Yukon this year. This is at 0.18 inch height of cut.


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## Ware

Looking good @Tellycoleman! :thumbsup:


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## Tellycoleman

Yeah it has come along way. But I didn't quit


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## cousineau18

Great tips, thanks again for the PM and holy hell your yard is looking amazing!!!!


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## TN Hawkeye

cousineau18 said:


> Great tips, thanks again for the PM and holy hell your yard is looking amazing!!!!


People often ask me why I have a @Tellycoleman growth chart that I measure my kids against. This thread is why.


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## ENC_Lawn

Tellycoleman said:


> 2 year post seeding. It usually looks a lot better but I was experimenting with very low cut Yukon this year. This is at 0.18 inch height of cut.


Looks great @Tellycoleman !!!


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## SWB

That's just nice....


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## Chocolate Lab

TN Hawkeye said:


> cousineau18 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Great tips, thanks again for the PM and holy hell your yard is looking amazing!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> People often ask me why I have a @Tellycoleman growth chart that I measure my kids against. This thread is why.
Click to expand...

 :lol:

Yeah, that looks fantastic. I'm pretty sure I've putted on some bermuda greens that weren't that good.

And all from seed. That's so cool.


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## SWB

I finally read this entire thread and thank you for taking the time to document your progress. I thought I was headed into depression over my lawn but now I think I hear the theme song to "Rocky" staring to play in the background....


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